# Female has verticals, but hides from male?



## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

*Tank info:* 8gal, filtered, heated, lightly planted, divided with a piece of wood and a safe net. They both live on their own side.
*
Tank mates:* 6 neon tetras (they can go through the net to each side) 2 Ancistrus and 1 Helena snail.

The male has made a huge, thick, bubble nest (10x4 inches). She is swelling with eggs and has vertical stripes. Now, I haven't done proper conditioning but I fed them all sorts of different foods (dried worms, flakes, pellets..) a bit more than usual for the past 2 weeks. I will do proper conditioning once I obtain frozen bloodworms (should be soon).

Anyway, since they both seem ready, my question is:

Why does the female hide from the male? They were together for 2 hours before I took her back to her side of the tank and I was watching them all that time. She had found 3 very good hiding places and she just went from one another all the time so no nipped fins.

But, he attacked her a few times after what she started swimming frantically in circles at the bottom for a few seconds. I realized that nothing will happen between them and took her away.

The male was behaving great, flaring, dancing, fixing the nest, trying to get her to swim to his nest...

*I don't understand her behavior, someone please explain.*

Thank you lots!









This photo was taken just now.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

This is normal behavior. Some people will use a small container to prevent the female from getting away from the male and they do breed a lot faster that way. HOWEVER< the female also gets alot more beat up!

I use a tank with four plants one in each corner for the female to hide behind. Also I use a big bunch of flooting plants incase she wants to hide in the middle of them. My females usually have very little injuries from their spawns. It may take a little longer, but to me, I'm not in all that big a hurry. 

When she hides, if you wait long enough, and when you first put her with him, it will be longer a wait, she will eventually make herself known, the male will chase her, maybe give her a nip, and she will hide again. She will make her "hiding sessions" shorter and shorter as she grows more confident in what is going on. This also wears the male down a little, so he is not as anxious and full of energy to be rougher with her. Now if her bars change to the horizontal line from her mouth to her tail, she is scared, and they are not flirting. I always look to the female to tell me what is truely going on. If the male is being mean, or if the female is not ready, she will not show bars.

Alot of people do not breed with things in the spawn tank. I have found it to be alot better. just my opinion though. I don't mind one bit letting the female hide. In nature, I'm sure the female hides from the male. I think this way is a more natural process. It is also very funny when you see the female come out of hiding and swim up to the male like, "well aren't you gonna come find me?" lol


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> This is normal behavior. Some people will use a small container to prevent the female from getting away from the male and they do breed a lot faster that way. HOWEVER< the female also gets alot more beat up!
> 
> I use a tank with four plants one in each corner for the female to hide behind. Also I use a big bunch of flooting plants incase she wants to hide in the middle of them. My females usually have very little injuries from their spawns. It may take a little longer, but to me, I'm not in all that big a hurry.
> 
> ...



Hahah, thanks for the great response! 

She has a lot of hiding spaces, are you telling me that I should *keep them together for longer than 2 hours or just try again the next day?*

Her vertical stripes get stronger when she is close to the male. Even after he attacked her, the vertical stripes became much brighter. 

While she is in hiding, he fixes the nest, dances and chases neon tetras (good for wearing him out). She has hiding places so good that he starts to search for her.  I wouldn't expect much nipped fins.

Thanks again for replying, I really thought that something was wrong with her and I feel much more confident now.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

You are more than welcome. I love talking about fish. lol

You still have the other fish in the tank with them? They haveto bein the spawn tank alone, with a bare bottom. If you had a successful spawn with the other fish in the tank, one of two things would happen. The other fish will eat the eggs/fry, or the male will kill them.

You needthe bottom of the tank to be bare because when they wrap, the eggs will fall to the ground.They will collect them and put them in thenest. They will continue tofall out of the nest and Daddy will collectthem and put them back. If you have gravel, they will fall in in between and die.

Once you have all that done, usually you place the female in a jar and let the male flirt and build a nest. But since you have already had them in the tank together, I would try going ahead and skipping that part. Putthem together, and just leave them. If you take her out, when you put her back in, the process has to start all over again.

The females like when the guys get a little rough. Some females won't spawn if the male isn't rough. Her having the bars is avery good sign that she is enjoying the attention.

If they are both virgins, it may take them a while. I just spawned a young pair of virgins and it took them almost a week to figure out what they were doing.lol It was quite funny to watch. They were both very interested in one another, but didn't know what it was that they wanted to do. They finally figured it out though and I have about 300 healthy fry!

Now at times he will chase her and nip her. And other times he will swim up to her,do a little dance then swim back to the nest. Sometimes the male will start to stay longer and longer under the nest and its not much longer the female till join him. She should be approaching him head down.

Good luck with this spawn! It sounds to me that with just a few adjustments and more time you will have you some nice little ones.lol Don't forget to start a spawn log if they do!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Keep them in together for as long as you feel comfortable.. I've kept pairs together for over a week.. once I kept a pair together for 2 weeks. If they lose interest, she isn't eggy, etc.. then remove and recondition. But if they continue to flirt, act interested, eggy, etc.. then leave them be. Don't disturb them.. the less you move around the tank, the quicker they will "get the job done" in my experience. Why I tape up a dish towel to the front of the tank with masking tape so I can peek in every so often without disturbing them too much. Virgins tend to get shy/nervous/excited too easily, in my opinion.. so the less you mess around them, the better they will be.

Wait.. you have neon tetras in the tank??

You really need to have them in their own breeding tank with no other fish... the care the fry needs is specific and they are very fragile.. the neons will kill the fry and eggs.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Woops.. was typing when she posted.. my bad!

But seriously.. don't have them breed in a community tank!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Thank you guys for replying! Wonderful advice. 

I have read a lot and saw too many videos on how to breed bettas the best way. I don't want it to be perfect, I would like it to be more natural, eggs fall to the bottom in the wild, that's why there are so many of them. I would certainly put my neon tetras away until the fry are fully grown.

And about keeping them together... I kept them together for 2 hours the first time, and 3 hours the second time on the same day now, and she hid much less the second time. 

I will definitely post a spawn log once it is done.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Well, I won't even get into how these fish are totally innapropriate breeders, but you have to condition properly. Flakes, pellets, and dried worms are not conditioning foods. And some betta pairs must be together for weeks before they breed. Why are you breeding in a community tank? In a tank with gravel (believe me, gravel is not natural. In the wild, the bottom is mud and sand.), the eggs will get caught, rot, and die. Once the fry hatch, they can get caught inbetween the gravel and die. Cleaning will be next to impossible. Bars on females technically do not indicate readiness to breed,they indicate submissiveness (fear/giving in).

IMO you are not ready to spawn. You do not have a proper spawning setup and you have not conditioned your pair properly.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Well, I won't even get into how these fish are totally innapropriate breeders, but you have to condition properly. Flakes, pellets, and dried worms are not conditioning foods. And some betta pairs must be together for weeks before they breed. Why are you breeding in a community tank? In a tank with gravel (believe me, gravel is not natural. In the wild, the bottom is mud and sand.), the eggs will get caught, rot, and die. Once the fry hatch, they can get caught inbetween the gravel and die. Cleaning will be next to impossible. Bars on females technically do not indicate readiness to breed,they indicate submissiveness (fear/giving in).
> 
> IMO you are not ready to spawn. You do not have a proper spawning setup and you have not conditioned your pair properly.


Horizontal lines indicate fear/giving in. The fishes are great. An egg fallen into mud and sand is as lost as in gravel. Please note, once again, that I am breeding them under conditions that will produce just about grown up fish as it would happen in the wild. You can not judge my readiness to breed bettas on what info I posted here. Bloodworms are to be bought, neon tetras taken out... This wasn't a spawning thread after all, I just asked a simple question. I didn't expect them to spawn right away (especially since they weren't conditioned), I was just confused by her behavior, so I asked about it.

"I haven't done proper conditioning but I fed them all sorts of different foods (dried worms, flakes, pellets..) a bit more than usual for the past 2 weeks. I will do proper conditioning once I obtain frozen bloodworms (should be soon)." - You missed this part of the text.


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## Saphira101 (Nov 14, 2012)

Hey, I mean you learn by doing, right? She's going to remove the gravel & tetras. Horizontal bars are stress stripes, and vertical bars are breeding stripes. I think she should give it a shot!

EDIT: wait a sec. You posted before I did! Whoops!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Saphira101 said:


> Hey, I mean you learn by doing, right? She's going to remove the gravel & tetras. Horizontal bars are stress stripes, and vertical bars are breeding stripes. I think she should give it a shot!
> 
> EDIT: wait a sec. You posted before I did! Whoops!


Yeap!  

I am male. I guess he is not happy about me breeding a couple of petty veil tails is all... He's being ignorant.


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## Saphira101 (Nov 14, 2012)

*I'm sorry!!*

Oh goodness. I'm sorry!  :frustrated:

I shouldn't say anyone's ignorant, he merely has different views from the rest of us. although I still think you should go ahead and breed your fishies :}


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

"Breeding stripes" aren't always a sign for breeding, as mentioned by Matts - it's just a form of communication. They show them for different reasons, submission (which is needed for spawning) is one of the reasons for the stripes, so they will get them when ready to breed as well as when being submissive for other reasons. 

I would personally have the tank set up properly before attempting to breed, you can't change it once they breed. 

You can technically use the gravel, but it's harder to keep clean - as you will be wanting to remove dead food daily with an airline tubing and gravel can make it a bit harder.. people who use substrate during breeding tend to use different sands rather than gravel.

Don't have a filter going in the tank - after the fry are free swimming you can then turn on a sponge filter, with the air pump set on low/valve turned down low. Any other filter will kill the fry.

Lowering the water level isn't a must - but it does make it easier on the male who will spend days swimming up and down collecting fallen eggs and fry (which bare bottom will make it easier for him to see them). 

Remove all other fish from the tank before you try to breed. The male betta will try to kill them, or he will eat all his eggs if he feels he can't protect them - he would rather eat them than let another fish get them.

Nothing wrong with what you are wanting to breed, but the set up needs a bit of tweaking to make the survival of the fry possible. You want it "natural" which is great.. Oldfishlady breeds in full tanks, but they are very heavily planted without any other fish nor filter going. 

Once the eggs are laid you can't disturb them nor bother the father.. once they are free swimming you can't go in and remove the substrate, etc without risking killing them.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

No worries, I will take good care.  I will clean the tank, vacuum and put a flat surface over the gravel until the fry grow large enough. I will move the neons to the other side. I actually have a good plan on how I will do it. I will move the wood to the right and insert a glass divider. I will keep the fry and the male at the left and the female and the neons at the right side.

I said ignorant because of sentences like "The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die." But he didn't know that we don't keep bettas on shelves, and that we take good care of them at the pet shops.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Still not a safe way to house them.. a cover over the gravel will house so much bad bacteria as the dead worms will go through the cracks on the edges.. the male will be stressed being able to see the female and other fish - have to remember they naturally chase all other fish from their territory. He won't be able to focus on taking care of the nest/babies as he will be spending his time and his energy (which he needs for constant care of the nest) going over to the other side to flare and attempt to chase off the other fish. He won't be eating for days, won't sleep, so he needs his energy spent on caring for the constant falling of eggs/fry.. not flaring at the divider doing his best to chase away the other fish.

Makes me wonder what you have planned for their grow out tanks and jars... can't cut corners in breeding these fish.. they aren't as simple as live bearers. The male and female should have their own tanks as it is, not use the breeding tank as their home tank. Where do you keep them at normally? Why does the female have to be in the breeding tank? She will need to be away from the male as well.. females don't want to be near a male (even if divided), and especially not after breeding where she will be beat up and could be easily half dead from the process.. that is added stress on her too. 

I must urge you to set it up properly if you are going to breed them. You are more than likely just going to end up killing all of the babies - what is the point to bring them into the world just to kill them because you don't have a breeding tank? You are placing all the fish into a stressful situation - the female could become overly aggressive to the other fish because she is being forced to be near the male, the male is going to be under a ton of stress because he can see the other fish/female so close to the nest, the tetras being in a smaller section and being chased/flared at all the time.. why risk their health (causing an outbreak in ich, etc) and their life (death caused by too much stress)? Go purchase a 10g from Walmart - set ups are $30, or just the tank for $12, and a heater that can heat it up to the proper temp.. then breed? 

Normally I'm all for trying new techniques, but this isn't a technique, this is simply trying to breed just to breed but not put the time/money in that is needed to properly breed. Not trying to be rude by any means, but your ideal is not ideal.. IF you can even get them to breed (less of a chance due to the distraction of the other fish), why not do it where it gives the fry a good chance at surviving and growing healthy?

Technically, you may be able to get them to spawn with what you are wanting to do. But it's at a great risk.. and unsure if you want to risk the well being of the fish you care about..

How big is the tank? 

Also keep in mind since you have to do daily large water changes for the fry for a few months.. if your tank is cycled you are risking the cycle crashing which would kill your fry in a heartbeat.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> Still not a safe way to house them.. a cover over the gravel will house so much bad bacteria as the dead worms will go through the cracks on the edges.. the male will be stressed being able to see the female and other fish - have to remember they naturally chase all other fish from their territory. He won't be able to focus on taking care of the nest/babies as he will be spending his time and his energy (which he needs for constant care of the nest) going over to the other side to flare and attempt to chase off the other fish. He won't be eating for days, won't sleep, so he needs his energy spent on caring for the constant falling of eggs/fry.. not flaring at the divider doing his best to chase away the other fish.
> 
> Makes me wonder what you have planned for their grow out tanks and jars... can't cut corners in breeding these fish.. they aren't as simple as live bearers. The male and female should have their own tanks as it is, not use the breeding tank as their home tank. Where do you keep them at normally? Why does the female have to be in the breeding tank? She will need to be away from the male as well.. females don't want to be near a male (even if divided), and especially not after breeding where she will be beat up and could be easily half dead from the process.. that is added stress on her too.
> 
> ...


Thank you a lot, for taking your time and giving good advice. 

Check this thread out: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=125760

You can see everything you need about my tank.

The male and the fry will be completely isolated from the female and the neons, the glass won't be see through. As for the gravel, I agree. I will remove all the gravel from the left side, put in more plants, then condition them with bloodworms and do everything right. If I don't get fantastic results, that's okay, it is my first time. I will feed them with infusoria for the first week and after that probably with frozen daphnia or some live culture. The breeding side of the tank will hold 4g, which is enough for a small number of fry, and the tank is 8g in whole so the water quality would be okay. Is there anything I missed mentioning?

I promise all will be good and i will post a spawn log once it is in action!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

"the tetras being in a smaller section and being chased/flared at all the time.."

The female never chases them, only the male, and yet, they prefer to stay on his side. It is impossible for a betta to catch a neon tetra so I think they don't mind occasional attacks. They make a few circles and the betta gets dizzy.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

This is ridiculous. You're calling me ignorant when you are breeding veiltails (I saw pics of them and their finnage isn't good even for veiltails.) when you could easily breed high quality, sellable fish. And yet you ignore our advice and are planning to spawn in a community tank. The bacteria will build up in the gravel and kill the fry. Any you cannot vacuum a fry tank. If you don't want to be criticized,do it right.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Honestly if you only end up with 4 fry, this is not a suffiecient setup. Just being honest with you. You will need to do water changes, and that WILL CRASH your cycled tank and all your fish will die. On top of all that, what are you going to do with the fry? If you are able to get any to stay alive, which under these conditins, I do believe the Dad is going to eat them, and I am one that leaves Dadd with fry until they are grown, what are you going to do with the fry? If they are females, they tank is not going to be big enough to handle all those fish. If any of them are male, you will have no choice but to get another tank. If two or more are male???? I really don't get it. Why not just bite the bullet if you want to do this, and go buy a tank? You will have to eventually anyway. Regardless of all the things that we know to be wrong with this set up, given you all benefit of a doubt, if things go the way YOU say they will, in the end, you will still need to buy a tank. 

I don't mean any disrespect by my response. You have not experienced breeding bettas, and so I understand you naivety. I wish for everyone who loves these fish the experience of seeing a spawn and raising their own fry. We, those who have successfully breed these and other fish, no you are setting yourself up for failure. Please step back, and think this through. I am sure in your heart of hearts that you would never harm any of your fish, and yet you are about to do just that. We have no reason to mis lead you on these facts. If you could breed them this way, trust me, we would all LOVE that! We go through a lot of work and money to do this because we know the way you are attempting does not work.

Please reconsider.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I would like to share with you something that just happened this morning. I have several fish. One one shelf I have a male in a tank with a bare bottom. This is a wire shelf. On the shelf below, I have another tank with some rosey barbs. Now, I walk in this morning and the male betta has his nose pinned to the bottom in the corner of his tank. ??? What is he doing? I thought. I fed them, went about my business. Went back in, looked at tehm again, and again, he had his nose pinned to the corner of the tank. I was barefoot this time, and as I stepped closer my foot got wet. Looked around to find out where it was coming from, and the rosey barb tank had sprung a leak. While I was concerned with the betta, I had to fix this problem.

I changed out the tank the rosey barbs where in, cleaned up the mess.  You know the betta has yet to do what he was doing before. Was he looking to see what the water was doing? Could he "hear" the water?

I have had fish my whole life. WHOLE LIFE. Growing up we had tanks in every room except the bathroom. Fish are more intelligent thatn you know. Just because the female isn't chasing the neons now, do not be surprised if she starts because she will know that there are her babies on the other side of that glass. Also, those neons will know that there are eggs somewhere in that tank. I had a 150 gallon tank with a bonded pair of marble angels. Whenever they would lay eggs, ALL the other fish behaviors would change. My pictus and red tail would begin fighting, my rosey barbs would be pushy toward the angels, it was a mess. It was because the other fish wanted to eat the eggs and they knew there was going to be eggs. I always knew they were getting ready to lay eggs because of the way the other fish behave. 

Just because the other fish are getting along now, do not think for one minute that having eggs in that tank on the other side of a glass divider isn't going to effect them. Just because Dad cannot see the other fish, don't think for one moment he doesn't know that they are there. A 10gallon tank doesn't cost all that much. Also try craigslist. You may be able to pick you up a few tanks for a little bit of nothing!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

You have a beautiful set up for your fish, great for what you have, but not for breeding. 

louisvillelady was able to say things much better than I could.. we will help you in every way we can, but you will have to trust what we are saying when it comes to what will work and what won't.. what is best for all of your fish, etc. 

I'm not going to lecture you on which fish to breed. That is strictly a breeder's choice, and personal opinion. 

As louisvillelady mentioned, all the fish will be aware as the breeding pair will be letting off pheromones which will drive all the fish nuts. Neon tetras look cute and innocent.. but they are tetras, and tetras are the chihuahuas of the fish world.. cute, tiny, you just want to hold.. but they will nip you for no good reason. They will nip each other, the female betta.. and with her state/mood after breeding.. it can potentially be a death sentence for some fish. The female will need a place to recoup and heal. She is not going to be able to do that in a tank with tiny spastic fish swimming around her. 

I too have had fish since I was 12.. my parents had some while I was growing up. 22 years later I still am in love with fish, tropical and cichlids.. have bred different types for a long time when I was younger. I may be new to breeding bettas, but I spent 18+ months studying their care, behavior, history.. learning about the splenden species as much as I could. I spent months researching breeding before I even purchased any items. And I still learn new things all the time when it comes to breeding these fish. 

It really is a fun process, and I recommend it to anyone who has the time, space, money it takes to breed. I will answer any questions that I can, if I can't I'll recommend a person or site/group where they can get the answers. 

So answer these questions to yourself before you breed them - 

Can I, do I want to, spend hours a day doing water changes, cleaning tanks, feeding.

Do I have the space it needs to have the proper set up.. for the breeding tank(s), grow out tank(s), a place to house 100+ jars and a way to heat all those jars. You may not end up with a 100 males, but you may, and you want to prepare. Sometimes you may have to remove females if they are overly aggressive.

Do I have the money to spend on making sure I have everything I need? IAL, tanks, heaters, sponge filters, jars/cups, live foods, etc.. it all costs a pretty penny. If you go with all new things, you are looking at at least a thousand dollars for a simple, small set up. I think in the end, for 2 spawn tanks and 2 30g grow out tanks on my first set up.. with everything needed (including a way to house the jars/cups) I spent easily $1500 - that also includes a few pairs of breed worthy fish. Shipping costs is included in that. 
Doesn't mean you will spend that much - you can go a cheaper route by using plastic buckets, etc for spawning and such.. 
Don't forget the jump in electric/water bills.. 

A lot of people who start getting into bettas want to breed them, and think it's as simple as just tossing them in together.. sometimes you see people say their fish jumped a divider and bred, or they got success by tossing the pair together and not preparing.. keep in mind after they post that, you don't hear anything from them again concerning the spawn as it tends to end badly. This is something that even with all the right equipment and knowledge, can still easily lose the fry over something we think is very minute - adding new water in after a change that is just a tiny bit off of the water in the tank (chemistry/temp wise). A lot of breeders easily lose 2/3rds of their first spawn or two due to needing to work out the kinks and that is with proper set up. 

So you can see our concern - it's not just about whether you breed them or not, and not just about the lives of the fry (we understand nature and how it's natural for deaths to occur, a way of making sure there isn't an over population, etc). It's also about the welfare of the fish you already have and have fallen in love with. 
It is also about you.. how it will effect you. Can you imagine getting a spawn, seeing them hatch.. then possibly they grow up for a few days.. a week, two weeks.. then something goes wrong and they all die. Trust me, you will get attached to those tiny little babies quickly. You'll talk to them, feed them, care for them.. and then lose them all. You will feel bad, you may blame yourself, etc. 
Is that really fair for you? And if the fry dies, the male WILL know, and will "feel" something. Yes, they live off of instinct.. but they KNOW.

The male of my recent spawn.. After a long battleI was finally able to get him away from the nest (him coming to attack my finger), I got him out and he ended up with 28 fry in his mouth. When he got into his container to recoup he ended up making a whole new nest and started caring for the fry he had hidden in his mouth (unsure how he fit that many in there.. but I counted 28 lol). Over the next couple of days I had to go and remove them.. I used a plastic spoon and a styrofoam cup.. every time I went to get a baby it was a race with him, he would rush up to the baby I was going for and grab it before I could get it. I had to be slow and careful as to not hurt the babies. But he knew what I was doing and he was doing his best to protect them from me. After about 5 days I had them all removed and into the fry tank.

That was over 2 weeks ago. He has built and maintained nests every day since then. He had never built a nest prior when he was in his home tank. Never.
Now he has one going all the time. Part of it is he wants to breed again.. but whenever I look at him and his nest, it pulls at my heartstrings because I felt bad removing him so soon.. now that I have confirmed that he is a great daddy, he can stay with his babies on his next spawn. 

So.. as louisvillelady said.. fish know. They can't feel sadness like us, or happiness.. they live off of instincts. But a part of them just knows when something isn't right, or if they want something they can't have. I have other stories too.. but this one is most recent and still crushes me how sad he was after being removed. Some males have stressed and passed on after being removed from their nest. If he is forced to eat his babies because he fears the other fish.. he may become stressed from that.

So yes.. reconsider breeding at this moment. If serious then get what is needed and we will be very happy to help you. Like I said.. doesn't matter what you breed, just matters is the health and well being of you and the fish.

And ugh, I'd freak if I saw one of my tanks leaking lol


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

^++1

Well put Myates. And just like you I have so many stories about fish, that I am sure I have forgotten more than I remember. They are fascinating. ALL animals are. They are living, breathing, vulnerable creatures and they are at our mercy.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

"Neons are best kept in a densely planted tank with subdued light and an ideal temperature of 21–27°C (70–81°F) to resemble their native Amazon environments."

There is my solution. The neons will be at my 1 gallon bowl while the female betta will have the other side of the tank. Everyone will be happy. Especially since I will remove all the gravel from the left side where the nest will be. I will then not let them see each other for a while, condition them, and finally introduce them to a healthy environment, small, but healthy and spacious enough for how many fish will determine the father as he will stay with them until some age when I can give them to an aquarium pet store. I spoke to the manager of the store today when I was getting new lights and he said that it would be great. So that's my plan, give them away when they are at just about fighting and keep one or two females. I believe these are good conditions, especially since the water is cycled better in a larger tank, even though the spawning side will be a half of the tank. I might even transfer some of the nest to the female to see if she will take care of them, because, you never know with bettas, each is different. As I said earlier, my female once layed eggs on her own and had built a bubble nest to store the eggs, so she has a nice history of being a parent, maybe they will both take care of the little bettas, but separately?


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

A store person once told a boyfriend of mine that redtail sharks are a schooling fish. Another time I overheard a store person telling another customer that they could put cichlids in a community tank. The closest pet store to me is run by a lady who is a member of the local fish club, and she had never even seen a plakat betta or knew there was such a thing. Moral of the story, just because they work in the fish department does not mean they know what they are talking about.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

*Copied from another thread where I posted:

Here, bettas are kept in excellent conditions.* There is no reason to assume that all pet stores are neglecting their betta fish. Here, in every store, bettas are kept in individual tanks (10 gallon at least), planted, cycled, with snails and other fish suitable to be kept with a betta. Really, I have never seen a betta being kept badly at pet stores here. Here are some pictures I took when I was at the store:

Sorrority:










And males are kept in individual tanks:


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

And your point is?


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

That the pet stores in Serbia are not the same as Wal-Mart and pet stores in USA of which you speak. We don't keep bettas on shelves here, they are very well taken care of.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I didn't say anything about keeping bettas on shelves. I said just because someone works in a fish department does not make them an authority on fish. They may simply know how to do their job and their knowledge begins and ends there. If that is what he told you, then he does not know anything about breeding bettas. But hey, if you are the type of person who seeks knowledge by continuing to ask people until you get the answer you want instead of listening to those who know, well, that is your privilege.

Your male is going to eat your fry. That is if your lucky enough to get them to breed. Good luck.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't know what you are talking about. All I said is that the pet shops are good places for bettas here and that's how I plan to settle them. Thanks!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I can't take anything you are saying about the petstores being good homes seriously. That female sorority is grossly overstocked, and all of them are clamped, injured, or stressed.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

They are not in conditions in which they would thrive, but they don't stay there for long enough to have any effect on the fish, unlike the cups that I saw on the Internet so much.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

There are 15 bettas on that photo. It is not overstocked at all, especially since they are all young. 

Those are all planted, cycled tanks, you don't have a point.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

There are 26 fish plus snails. There are so few plants that they have no decent place to hide. They are injured, clamped, and very obviously stressed. You can not ignore that. I think they would be happier in a cup.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

That picture, those fish all have stress stripes and are clamped. They are not happy.



soady said:


> "Neons are best kept in a densely planted tank with subdued light and an ideal temperature of 21–27°C (70–81°F) to resemble their native Amazon environments."
> Your tank has neither on a daily basis.
> 
> There is my solution. The neons will be at my 1 gallon bowl while the female betta will have the other side of the tank. Everyone will be happy.
> ...


Not to be mean/rude, but your ideas just simply put your fish in danger. You are creating hundreds of lives just to have them die shortly after birth. You apparently rather not listen to people who have experience and who have done research... unsure what more I can say to help you see the faults in your plan.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Some female bettas can take care of the fry. And I never mentioned the tank size because I already got the answer to the question because of which I made the thread in the first place. I appreciate all the advice, and don't think I will not accept it, it is just tiring to answer the same questions and repeat myself. Hundreds die in the wild, that's why there are so many eggs. Plenty of species have the same reproductive system where many are born but only few live.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

We understand hundreds die. But why kill them all? Again, where are they going to grow out in? And how do you plan to do water changes, add new water in, etc and hold the cycle? You are having to repeat yourself because you are arguing about how your way is a good way.. instead of seeing the major flaws it has.

I hate doing this.. I don't want to argue, but I will stand up for the health/safety of the fish, especially since needless deaths can be prevented.

Just saw the size... 4 gallons will last a spawn all of a few weeks before they have to be moved.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> We understand hundreds die. But why kill them all? Again, where are they going to grow out in? And how do you plan to do water changes, add new water in, etc and hold the cycle? You are having to repeat yourself because you are arguing about how your way is a good way.. instead of seeing the major flaws it has.
> 
> I hate doing this.. I don't want to argue, but I will stand up for the health/safety of the fish, especially since needless deaths can be prevented.
> 
> Just saw the size... 4 gallons will last a spawn all of a few weeks before they have to be moved.


It is an imperfect environment to raise fry, but it will certainly bring results.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

You did state how big the tank is. 8 gallons. then divided that makes 4 gallons. Alot of people spawn in a small container then transfer to the growout tank. THOSE SMALL SPAWN CONTAINERS ARE BIGGER THAN 4 GALLONS!

Myates, unfortunately I do believe we are wasting our time here. This person neither wants our advice nor will heed our advice. If they are able to get them to spawn, the Dad is going to eat the fry. case closed. None will survive. WE know this. I'm leaving this thread never to return. There are others on this forum who wants and needs our advice and who will actually listen to the advice given. That is where I am going to spend my time on this forum.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

"...the Dad is going to eat the fry. case closed. None will survive. WE know this."

You don't know, nor you could ever know. All you can do is guess and that will be over once you see what is really to come.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Most likely it will be a case of your actions killing them rather than the father.

You are going to kill your neons.. they are fragile to begin with, putting 6 into a 1g bowl is going to kill them quickly.

You can breed them in the 4g, just set it up to be a proper fry tank. Take out the filter, raise the temp, find another home for the female, etc.

It is doable in that tank, but the filter needs to go - if you were to remove the divider to give the fry more space (saying you gave your female another home), and you turn off that filter (which needs to happen as the filter will push them around and suck them up - kill them quick).. your cycle will crash and kill your fry. You need to get it turned off first, empty the tank, and redo it to make it safe.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

The thing about keeping fry in a small tank is that they release a growth stunting hormone and if proper water changes aren't made then the fry 's growth will be stunted. Also, even though females have been known to put eggs in nests there is no guarantee that she'll raise the fry. She'll more than likely eat them.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> Most likely it will be a case of your actions killing them rather than the father.
> 
> You are going to kill your neons.. they are fragile to begin with, putting 6 into a 1g bowl is going to kill them quickly.
> 
> ...



"the filter will push them around and suck them up - kill them quick"

The water surface in my tank is completely still, and sponge filters are used to prevent fry being sucked.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Some people use sponge filters in spawn tanks and have had success with them.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@soady: I know people breed differently. I breed in as small as 1g tall/regular tank to 50g long. But you must understand some basic facts.
1. Females WILL NOT care for fry. they will more likely eat them. You MIGHT get away with it IF your set up is densely and fully planted to the top. Leave ALL, male, female and fry . . . this MIGHT work. BUT you need a much bigger tank.

2. The smaller the tank, the bigger the disturbance by air flow of filters. If you're using a 20g, you can use filters for newborns/hatch but a small 4g can only take about 1 bubble per second or more. Otherwise fry will be tossed around and die.

3. Fry are very sensitive. You can't treat them like adults. They are vulnerable towards environmental changes. This will effect their feeding habit.

4. Fry need bigger tanks for their growout. They can only be kept in small containers for a short period because water parameters will quickly crash.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks, Indjo. I am aware that the female will most likely eat the eggs, but it is worth trying with a couple of eggs. The water in my tank couldn't be more still. I might get a 15 gallon bucket for the fry so no worries, I will do it right.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Messing around with the nest of eggs with the male can cause him to freak out and eat all the eggs.. messing around with the tank at all with the male and his nest can cause it.. he should not be disturbed at all while nesting/caring for fry. So you trying to scoop a few eggs (which will be hard to see under a leaf, under the cup, under the nest and still be able to scoop) can lead to you killing lots of eggs yourself, and causing the male to kill them. Is it really worth it for an experiment that WILL fail?

15g will be okay for about 10 fry to grow in.. if the father wants to keep 200 alive (since you are using only him to cull).. then what are you going to do with the 190 other fry that need larger space to grow healthy in?

See the flaws in the plan? Breed in the 4g (I breed in 1-2g successfully myself), but make sure the 4g is properly set up. Make sure to have plenty of grow out tanks. And make sure to have jars that you can heat up appropriately. 

There may be different techniques to breed in, but they still all have the basic requirements, which you are not meeting with your plan.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

There is no way that I will end up with 200 fry on my first spawn, and probably their too. You are exaggerating, jars are easy to get, I already have a bunch, and a 15-20 gallon plastic container will be enough for a decent spawn, heated, floating plants... And I will be able to scoop some eggs with the nest carefully when it's feeding time and he isn't paying attention. It will be only a few, just out of curiosity, because not all bettas act the same. My plan is great.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

I could be wrong but I dont think the male eats till the fry are free swimming so trying to distract him with food will not work. Caring for the fry will be stressful enough and add you bothering him trying to get some eggs its just not a good idea.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

soady said:


> There is no way that I will end up with 200 fry on my first spawn, and probably their too.
> You want to go look at my 300 fry from a virgin that are swimming healthy in one of my fry tanks right now and tell me I am exaggerating? You can EASILY end up with 200+ fry, there are NO rules as to how many eggs are laid.. so yes, there is a good chance you will end up with 200+ fry.
> 
> jars are easy to get, I already have a bunch,
> ...


You can't just grab a few!!!! They are clumped together all around the nest.. he has it set just right to hold the nest together.. you go in there and try to scoop some you break up the nest and then you lost them all.

No they don't, but IT'S THE FEMALE'S INSTINCT TO NOT HELP WITH THE NEST. It's very rare to get anything to go against instinct.

Your plan is ANYTHING BUT great and honestly I hope you try it, see it fails and you lose everything just so you don't keep trying it over and over. This is just plain... ugh... as someone who cares for the well being of animals, I don't want to see them get hurt.

There is nothing wrong with trying new things as long as they are being cared for and not harmed. You are placing them in harm, you are placing your neons into a death trap. How can you not see this?


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Myates, Louisville Lady, Indjo and others have all given terrific advise in this thread. I have nothing to add other than these folk are very experienced and any new breeder should heed these wise words.


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## PaulO (Aug 13, 2012)

Man it is gonna be depressing reading the post in the disease and emergency area about the fry, parent's , and probably the tetras when they "mysteriously" start dying. I hope to god you change your mind and hopefully you'll either abandon this plan or at least take the things said here to heart. Honestly I wish you and your fish the best but unfortunately this is not looking like it will have a favorable outcome for you. If you can't be convinced not to breed can you wait?

Put off this plan to breed for a month and start a new thread, I am sure everyone is more than willing to give you more than adequate advice. Everybody here and even more breeders will walk you through the RIGHT way to set up these tanks, how you should condition the fish, and any questions you might have. You might think we are being a**holes but we really are not we are trying with our whole utmost effort to help you. At least a few of these breeders have gone through having all/most of their fry die at least once and it is depressing. There are few worse things to happen while breeding and raising fish than having to pick out dead fry from the bottom of the tank and bury in a garden are wherever. 

At the least wait 1 month and during that month like I said start a thread and do EXTENSIVE research, if you do it correctly you'll realize how in the wrong you are. I leave this to your consideration, please do what is right.

-Paul


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

PaulO said it right there. We are all here to help, not offend you even if it feels that way. The thing is, it is hard to help when you refuse to accept what we are saying. In my honest opinion, you need to change your set up and do a lot more research. Research until you think you have done enough, then do twice as much more!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

logisticsguy said:


> Myates, Louisville Lady, Indjo and others have all given terrific advise in this thread. I have nothing to add other than these folk are very experienced and any new breeder should heed these wise words.


If I was breeding I'd definitely be seeking the advice of these people mentioned.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It's not like it is completely wrong.. there are actual ways to breed the way he wants. It's just some of the actions are what will kill fish.. trying to get some eggs from a nest and place them with the female, all those neons in a 1g bowl, etc. 

So there is a way to successfully breed with what he wants to breed with, but just needs to be tweaked. More than happy to help tweak his ideas to make it successful, but with the defenses up and being stubborn P), it will be hard.

I'm a red head. I'm a mother of an autistic 8yr old. I can deal with stubborn  So.. please.. if you want to breed with what you have then we can help you do that. But the ideas you have and things you want to try.. we know they will cause deaths. If we weren't so positive then we wouldn't be stubborn either.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> It's not like it is completely wrong.. there are actual ways to breed the way he wants. It's just some of the actions are what will kill fish.. trying to get some eggs from a nest and place them with the female, all those neons in a 1g bowl, etc.
> 
> So there is a way to successfully breed with what he wants to breed with, but just needs to be tweaked. More than happy to help tweak his ideas to make it successful, but with the defenses up and being stubborn P), it will be hard.
> 
> I'm a red head. I'm a mother of an autistic 8yr old. I can deal with stubborn  So.. please.. if you want to breed with what you have then we can help you do that. But the ideas you have and things you want to try.. we know they will cause deaths. If we weren't so positive then we wouldn't be stubborn either.



I would love it if you tweaked my plan, instead of telling me that what I am doing is wrong all the time. When did you people stop being nice?

I won't try to move the fry, point taken. The female will be kept in a jar or a bowl inside the container, much like what this breeder is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvzVPd29DoU

I know he swears a lot and stuff, but he gives good advice.

Notice that he says he leaves them to see each other 24/7. He obviously has success like this, so I'm thinking of doing something similar to what he is doing.

Any suggestions?

And thanks a lot for still trying to help me out!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Actually, he is looked down a lot by breeders.. he has his own way, but he makes it sound as if it is the best/right way. The 24/7 isn't 24/7, what he is doing is introducing the pair together and he keeps them in like that for roughly 24hrs before releasing. It's what majority of the breeders do  Take his videos with a grain of salt. 

I have mentioned what needs to be done. I will point out the faults and have told you how to correct. I also point out the faults so you know which ones to research more on 

But here nor there.. 

Conditioning is separate from the breeding tank. They tend to do better in their own containers, whether it be half a gallon or a gallon - either way the containers should be heated to about 76-78 (leaving the warm water in the tank, as the introduction to warm water can increase readiness to spawn).

Don't let them see each other but for 10-20 minutes once a day. I have tried both ways during conditioning (separating and allowing them to see each other 24/7) - in my experience females egged up quicker and became more ready when they did not see each other during the conditioning but for the short time. If they see each other 24/7 then nothing is new and exciting.. they get bored of one another. But if they are away from all other bettas for majority of the day, when they do see another they get excited.
Feed lots of live/frozen foods - my males will eat 3+x a day, females 4+x a day. Live/frozen worms and such tend to kick in the instinct to egg up, match it with seeing a male off and on and she will be ready in a short time. 

Once the female is huge with eggs (not food - if she is huge prior to a feeding then you can assume she is eggy, but if by the time it's feeding time and she isn't that rounded, then she isn't ready).. once she is eggy you can put them both into the breeding tank. 

Breeding tank - 5-10gs (keep in mind the bigger it is the more space the fry has and the longer time they can stay in it, as moving a fry in the first 4 weeks can be very dangerous). No filter - place a sponge filter inside the breeding tank but don't turn it on (turn it on shortly after free swimming, but on very low).
Lower the water level to about 3-5 inches to help the male care for the nest easier.. as he won't be sleeping nor eating for days on end and will be continuously going up and down (why conditioning him is very important). So having a short water level will help him pick up fry/eggs a bit easier.
Bare bottom - so the male can pick up eggs/fry easier, and make cleaning a bit easier on you.
Live plants, IAL, temp set to 82-84F (I personally like 84), nest anchor (IAL leaf, Oak leaf, piece of bubble wrap, half a styrofoam cup).

Now, depending on how ready the female is you can introduce in a couple ways - 

If she is very ready then you can place them both in the tank at the same time with no barrier.. observe to make sure they start to flirt quickly.

Place her in the glass chimney, him in the tank and observe them.. if she starts to become submissive shortly after introduction then just give it a few hours and then let her loose.. observe behavior.

Place her in the glass chimney, him in the tank and observe.. after about 24hrs you can release her.. observe behavior.

What you are looking for in behavior is her being submissive (head waay down and bars on her side), him trying to lead her to the nest, her wanting to follow him, etc. If you see them both posturing, both flaring, etc then they are not ready.. 

They may get really rough.. so make sure to have salts/medication on hand just in case. Once spawning is over (can take a few hours for the actual spawning process), you will see the female as far from the nest as possible.. she may be clenched up and colorless.. she is trying to recoup without getting the attention of the male. Her job is done. You remove her (can place her in the 1g you have with a heater) and get her healed up.. once she is healed up you can place her into the other 10g (or the 8g) tank you had set up for the neons (can't get around buying a 10g tank for them.. they CAN'T live in the 4g you had them in previously, nor the 1g). So after she is better she can go live with them and be happy.. she will not recognize any eggs as being hers, and will eat any she comes across as she will be wanting to replenish her energy from breeding and nothing looks better than protein filled eggs to her at that time.

Leave the male be with the nest.. don't disturb him.. especially new fathers can get a bit antsy if he feels the nest is in danger. So you just leave him be.. 
Keep an eye on him, and especially after the fry are hatched.. he may eat them all, may not - new fathers are iffy when it comes to eating eggs/fry on their first time, as they are still learning the ropes. Instincts tend to kick in, but you never know.

Leave the male in for as long as you feel the fry are safe. Can offer him food once they are free swimming.. he will decide whether or not he wants to eat. Remove any uneaten food immediately after attempting.

Once the egg sacs are gone from the fry you are going to want to start feeding them - best way to go about it is with micro cultures or BBS (infusoria is good too, but they only eat that for a very short time). You will want to feed at least 3x a day.. siphon the water at least 2x a day with an airline tube.. even then you can suck up the babies, so be careful.. make sure to siphon off the bottom to remove uneaten/dead food. 

To add new water in (since the water level is low and they start producing stunting hormones) you will want to drip it in - generally with some rigged drip system. I have shelves above my breeding tanks with multiple glass 1g jugs set up with conditioned water + IAL, heated.. I use an airline tubing and a control valve to adjust the amount of drips - I started out with 1 drip per 10-20 seconds and at around 3 weeks I up it to about 1 drip per 2-5 seconds. Sometimes I will have 2 going into a single tank with no side effects - they have taken the new water with ease. 
It's slow going.. but you can't just pour fresh water into the tank as you won't have the exact same chemistry.. so this way they can adjust with no risk.

Depending upon what size spawning tank they are in, will determine when you move them to grow out tank.. but average you move them when they are around 5mm, or 4-5 weeks, maybe later if the spawn isn't that big and you keep up on the water changes.

The 15-20g will be fine for a pretty small spawn, but a couple of them would be better as you don't know what you will have. Make sure to keep it heated, give them light and find a way to trap humidity in (their labyrinth organs start to develop at around the 7th week) without suffocating them. Why I just stick with tanks and glass canopies.. much less of a headache for me. 

Jar when the males start to become aggressive.. try to get the clear tubs so you can have some chance at seeing this happen. Some will get aggressive younger, some older.. best they stay in the grow outs for as long as possible, but it's a fish by fish case. You don't want to keep them in there once they start fighting for obvious reasons..

Phew.. okay.. just a tiny portion of the basics there..


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> Actually, he is looked down a lot by breeders.. he has his own way, but he makes it sound as if it is the best/right way. The 24/7 isn't 24/7, what he is doing is introducing the pair together and he keeps them in like that for roughly 24hrs before releasing. It's what majority of the breeders do  Take his videos with a grain of salt.
> 
> I have mentioned what needs to be done. I will point out the faults and have told you how to correct. I also point out the faults so you know which ones to research more on
> 
> ...



That was great, I really appreciate it! You kept my attention. I really have read a lot of breeding advice, but it was never so nicely connected to me and my setup. 

I bought frozen food today. I bought bloodworms, daphnia, red mosquito larvae and artemia. I will buy the plastic container I was talking about (round) and start conditioning them properly with letting them see each other for 20 minutes a day. I will do so for around 2-3 weeks, or until you guys think they are ready, since I will post pictures of them and write about their behavior.

Thanks a bunch!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It can take anywhere from 5-14 days for conditioning.. you are going to base it mainly off of the female and when she is ready. I would say at minimum 5-7 days just so they get their energy and nutrition up. 

Definitely (if you haven't already) check out the stickies on top of this section and use it as a check list of sorts. There are tons of other little things that come in handy (such as turkey basters) that may not be listed.

How you breed can vary from breeder to breeder.. everyone has their own methods that work best for what they have and want. As long as the basics are followed in the care of the fish.. so you breeding and growing in tubs is fine and many people do it. Being new it may pose a little more challenge (as to being able to view for deformities, aggression, etc) that experienced people know what to look for - but it's definitely not impossible. 

I have no qualms with the fish you are wanting to breed, nor how - just when you had the neons in the tank, messing with the nest, etc.. those were my concerns. But you trying to go as easy/cheap.. nothing wrong with that. I do wish you the best of luck and I will answer any questions you have - I just let my worry of their health/safety be my focus for a bit there.

Breeding info

Breeding questions


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> It can take anywhere from 5-14 days for conditioning.. you are going to base it mainly off of the female and when she is ready. I would say at minimum 5-7 days just so they get their energy and nutrition up.
> 
> Definitely (if you haven't already) check out the stickies on top of this section and use it as a check list of sorts. There are tons of other little things that come in handy (such as turkey basters) that may not be listed.
> 
> ...



I looked through all the stickies, and will go through all of them a few more times. Here is the food that I bought:










As, I said earlier, I will count on your help throughout the whole process! 

Thank you.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Here is a site that I found.. it's a few years old, but they have some great ideas and tips -


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Myates has some good advice there for you, Soady. I guarrantee she won't steer you wrong.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

lol aww shucks  I learned from some of the best here like Oldfishlady, indjo and such. And lots of research with grains of salt tossed in.. and actually breeding. Can't learn a whole lot until you actually do it! (thanks OFL). 

I don't always sound as polite as I'm trying to be.. I just tend to go straight for the point


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> lol aww shucks  I learned from some of the best here like Oldfishlady, indjo and such. And lots of research with grains of salt tossed in.. and actually breeding. Can't learn a whole lot until you actually do it! (thanks OFL).
> 
> I don't always sound as polite as I'm trying to be.. I just tend to go straight for the point


I'm sorry, Myates, if I offended you in any way.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

You didn't..


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

As much as I disagree with what you are doing Myrates has given you fantastic advice and I am glad you are conditioning them properly.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I am glad too.  It will go well, no worries.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I hope everything works out for you, Soady. Good luck with your spawn.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

dramaqueen said:


> I hope everything works out for you, Soady. Good luck with your spawn.


Thanks a lot!


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

1 thing i can add is too much hideing space can be bad too wat i tend to do is after 3 days n the female is still hideing i will remove her n the male then set them back up why i do this ? most males as we know have they own was of doing things but wat i finds that works well is a 12 once plastic drinking glass fill it with water , place in in the spawning tank now the water in the tank should be a lil under the lid of the glass,wat u may find to happen from time to time some female may jump out on her own , u can give my idea a try next time, right now i'll say it is working for me about 95% of the time 16 of 20 spawns is abot that right?


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes that technique is a proven good one chardzard. It does work for stubborn females and when excited enough will often jump out on their own when ready to spawn. Often with less abuse to the female.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

yes n wat i have notice too is the male tempper cool down a bit too they tend to dance more with less biteing


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

chardzard said:


> 1 thing i can add is too much hideing space can be bad too wat i tend to do is after 3 days n the female is still hideing i will remove her n the male then set them back up why i do this ? most males as we know have they own was of doing things but wat i finds that works well is a 12 once plastic drinking glass fill it with water , place in in the spawning tank now the water in the tank should be a lil under the lid of the glass,wat u may find to happen from time to time some female may jump out on her own , u can give my idea a try next time, right now i'll say it is working for me about 95% of the time 16 of 20 spawns is abot that right?


That's a great advice, letting her jump out on her own. Some breeders divide them if nothing happens in only 30 minutes. I will keep a "close" eye on them when I put them together, and make sure that they notice me, so I wouldn't disturb them. I don't like the idea of leaving them together for a few days until they spawn. It would be great if she jumped out, but if that doesn't happen I will put them together for a few hours, and if nothing happens try again tomorrow. Does this seem okay, to introduce them every day until they spawn?


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Too late for an edit. I wanted to write: "...and make sure that they *don't* notice me..."


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## BeautifulBetta123 (Aug 27, 2012)

Fish are different my ct pair that I spawned were conditioned lots and so in the spawn tank breeding was the only thing on their minds they didn't even notice me watching them for hours. I did see them spawn it was cool. Other people have had to cover the whole tank though so that the pair is not distracted.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, I will be watching from far above, just enough to see what they're up to. I won't be able to see much anyway, since I will be using black plastic containers. I know black is not the best color, but it will have a light above and I will be able to get more of them since they are a lot cheaper than the colored ones here.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

lol.. the self proclaimed "greatest breeder" said to do the 30 minute thing, correct? It's very rare to get them to breed that quickly.. why most shake their heads at him  Many, many many virgin pairs can, and often do, take days to a week+ to breed.. they are together during the whole time. As long as they are in breeding mode, the female eggy and they are flirting, they can be together for as long as it takes. 

You removing them after 30 minutes you will most likely won't get them to breed.. if anything it would be 1 out of every 100 tries. That guy doesn't just give them 30 minutes.. trust me.. he just claims it so he can say he is the greatest lol. 

By disrupting them every day they won't breed.. they won't be able to accomplish their "ritual", the male needs time to get the female submissive, and new girls don't give it up easily.

You can try it, but unless she is VERY eggy, they have bred before.. it won't happen. Quickest it took mine (with an experienced female) was a few hours, longest it took another pair was over a week. I have seen/heard very few take less than an hour, and those tend to be well experienced pairs.

Good luck!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Black will be very hard to deal with.. you can't look under the nest, and seeing fry that are literally the size of pin pricks will be very difficult.. when you siphon out the bottom daily their water and dead food, be very careful as you won't be able to see the fry and at first they won't be moving a whole lot out of your way.

Could also make it difficult for the fry to see the food, especially since you may not be feeding them the wiggly worms.


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## BeautifulBetta123 (Aug 27, 2012)

Mine took two day both times and they spawned at the same time both times at 1:00 pm lol


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

It will be tricky to siphon but I will have good lightning and do it very slowly.

I have no problem with leaving them together for a few days, I just wanna make sure that they are okay and monitor them throughout the process to see if they should be separated. I am not looking for the quickest way to spawn them once they are introduced, I just want them to spawn the best.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree with myates - that they shouldn't be disturbed during the breeding process. If I'm not mistaken, they are mature, right? Sometimes mature pairs will breed within the 24 hour mark, specially ones that has previously released eggs. Just let them see each other for a day the release before dark. If you're not using extra light, they should become inactive after dark but can sense each other. They should spawn the following morning.

I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know what you have decided to do, other than using a black tub. IME as long as it's safe for fish, it will be fine. I too breed in black tubs which I often totally cover during the spawning process (to avoid breeze destroying nest/eggs). Irid colored fry (except for royal blue) will look light colored and will be easy to spot. But red or dark colored fry can be impossible to spot . . . imagine a super black spawn. Lol . . . . And as for gunk, they will be sort of light brownish, so can be spotted. In case they're not, you can siphon water only. This will reduce ammonia build up. I clean my tubs every month, specially if I have a high number (200 or more).


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I always let the female jump out on her own. You have to make sure that the container is big enough that she can swim forward a bit so she can get a "running start" in order to be able to jump. I also make sure that there is about an inch lip above the water line because the male can spook the female and in a startled swim away may accidently jump out.

Now, I will leave the pair together as long as they are still flirting with each other. In the method where you let the female have hiding places, it takes a little longer. I just breed two virgins about a month ago and it took them a week to figure out what they were doing. But this entire time, they were flirting back and forth. And man what a nest the male made.lol 

Good luck with this spawn soady. Its a real treat to get to raise your own!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

indjo said:


> I agree with myates - that they shouldn't be disturbed during the breeding process. If I'm not mistaken, they are mature, right? Sometimes mature pairs will breed within the 24 hour mark, specially ones that has previously released eggs. Just let them see each other for a day the release before dark. If you're not using extra light, they should become inactive after dark but can sense each other. They should spawn the following morning.
> 
> I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know what you have decided to do, other than using a black tub. IME as long as it's safe for fish, it will be fine. I too breed in black tubs which I often totally cover during the spawning process (to avoid breeze destroying nest/eggs). Irid colored fry (except for royal blue) will look light colored and will be easy to spot. But red or dark colored fry can be impossible to spot . . . imagine a super black spawn. Lol . . . . And as for gunk, they will be sort of light brownish, so can be spotted. In case they're not, you can siphon water only. This will reduce ammonia build up. I clean my tubs every month, specially if I have a high number (200 or more).



Hey, now that you mentioned siphoning only water, I was thinking about putting a couple of larger stones in one place so I could stick my siphon between them and use very low suction power.

I read somewhere that the easiest way to catch a lot of BBS at once is to put the container in darkness and then bring a source of light close to one side, like using a candle or a flashlight. They all round up near the light and you can easily scoop them out. I was wondering, would the fry act the same? If I could get them all close to one another it would be much easier to siphon.

I will be using plastic foil instead of a lid through which I couldn't see anything. It will also allow the light in, and keep the air humid.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> I always let the female jump out on her own. You have to make sure that the container is big enough that she can swim forward a bit so she can get a "running start" in order to be able to jump. I also make sure that there is about an inch lip above the water line because the male can spook the female and in a startled swim away may accidently jump out.
> 
> Now, I will leave the pair together as long as they are still flirting with each other. In the method where you let the female have hiding places, it takes a little longer. I just breed two virgins about a month ago and it took them a week to figure out what they were doing. But this entire time, they were flirting back and forth. And man what a nest the male made.lol
> 
> Good luck with this spawn soady. Its a real treat to get to raise your own!


Thanks! 

Yeah, those bubble nests can get crazy big if he stays motivated long enough. 

If I want to wait for her to jump, how many days should I wait for the jump before I place her there myself, once she is in a jar in the breeding tank? Maybe she just isn't a jumper, that's why I'm asking, even though she sometimes jumps for food when it's feeding time. What I want to know is when can I say: "She is ready but she will not jump." ?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

soady said:


> Hey, now that you mentioned siphoning only water, I was thinking about putting a couple of larger stones in one place so I could stick my siphon between them and use very low suction power.
> 
> I read somewhere that the easiest way to catch a lot of BBS at once is to put the container in darkness and then bring a source of light close to one side, like using a candle or a flashlight. They all round up near the light and you can easily scoop them out. I was wondering, would the fry act the same? If I could get them all close to one another it would be much easier to siphon.
> 
> I will be using plastic foil instead of a lid through which I couldn't see anything. It will also allow the light in, and keep the air humid.


Easiest way I find siphoning is with an airline hose and a clear straw over one end of it to help guide it easier - as you will need to siphon the bottom of the tank a couple times to remove dead/uneaten food/waste. The straw helps to move it where you want it. 

I also keep a finger on the other side of the tubing, in the bucket.. the finger just over where the water flows out so that way if I accidentally suck up a fry I can stop the water flow immediately and let the fry loose. 

When siphoning just water (when done with vacuuming the bottom) I siphon at the top in a corner, keep an eye on the fry easier and since ammonia tends to rise (or so I have heard), I will be removing more ammonia. 

But being held in place by a couple small rocks could work - you just have to still sit there and watch.. just don't forget to vacuum the bottom regularly as well. 

Yes, BBS is attracted to the light - remove the air stone and let them settle for a few minutes - place a flashlight laying sideways on the table/counter/whatever so they all swim to the bottom (the eggs float and you don't want eggs in with the fry, the fry can choke on them).. and I personally use a turkey baster to remove the BBS - I will then either use a shrimp net or a coffee filter (rubber banded over a cup) to deposit the BBS and then I use tank water to rinse them off before using an eye dropper to collect and feed.



soady said:


> Thanks!
> 
> If I want to wait for her to jump, how many days should I wait for the jump before I place her there myself, once she is in a jar in the breeding tank? Maybe she just isn't a jumper, that's why I'm asking, even though she sometimes jumps for food when it's feeding time. What I want to know is when can I say: "She is ready but she will not jump." ?


If she is completely eggy and submissive then let her loose.. I wouldn't keep her in the jar for more than two days, but that is my personal opinion. She should be ready to spawn prior to you placing her in there, you are just waiting for the male to become interested and her to become submissive to him.. sometimes the females will need a bit more time to actually do the deed.. especially first time females. But she should still be eggy prior to placing her into the holding jar/breeding tank. After that it could be hours or a day before she is ready to be with him. 

Make sure when/if she jumps she is ready - she could jump because she wants to fight him, etc.. so keep an eye on her and her actions.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I siphon exactly as you described, but I straightened out the end of the tube by fixing it straight with a piece of a wooden "straw".  There is also a wider tube attached to the other side which I use to suck in the gravel and siphon it thoroughly. I can always use the other side (the thinner one) for more delicate siphoning.

If all the egg shells float, can I just scoop them out?


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I am very proud of my siphon, I have to post a pic of it because I made it myself.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

You should patent that siphon.  Very important piece of equipment for a spawn because we have to remove so much water and poops very carefully.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

logisticsguy said:


> You should patent that siphon.  Very important piece of equipment for a spawn because we have to remove so much water and poops very carefully.


Hahah, thanks!  I don't think I could patent a couple of tubes put together. xD I will add something to the end of the thinner tube to avoid sucking up fry, and siphon carefully!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

OFL uses a wooden chopstick just like that too. I use a clear plastic straw as I want a clear view of what I am siphoning up. But since you won't be able to even see your fry, guess it doesn't matter. 

You might want to place the bottom of the siphon equal with the wood.. you will want to be able to put the siphon as close to the bottom as possible to help avoid sucking up curious fry.

I would make sure it's the size of the airline tubing.. as even airline tubing sucks up fry very easily.. anything bigger then you are asking for trouble. But that would work for bigger tanks


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I just noticed that the wood is badly placed on this picture, it is easy to pull it up and line it with the tube.  I will put some sort of a baffle with holes just large enough for the debris to flow by. And yes, I'll keep it close to the bottom.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If available, bamboo works better - stronger/lasts longer. Make a small cut where you tie them. This will avoid it from moving up or down. I set my tube slightly longer than the stick/bamboo. . . . I have one that has a piece of plastic at the end to scrape off sticky gunk on the floor. But I never use this for fry, only for juvie or adult tanks.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Nice tip on the plastic end.


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