# 2 new rescues



## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

just couldn't leave them there








this one was marked as female, but those ventrals look too long for a girl








they already seem to be feeling a bit better with warm clean water with salt and they both gobbled up some frozen bloodworms


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## GunsABlazin (Jun 1, 2011)

aww poor babys.
Youd think they would take better care of them, seeing as how they make money off of them.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

JEEZUS! Look at that finrot! O__O; Those poor things!!! :< 
The 1st one's face is A-D-O-R-A-B-L-E!  
2nd one miggghhttt be a male. Not sure *shrug* Can you see his/her egg spot?? 

I wish you good luck!!!


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Daw I wana see them when they get better  Do you know what they are supposed to be HM ,VT, etc.? So cute and I bet they are happy you came along.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

the first one was marked as a delta, second was marked as a vt female
I didn't even think about looking for an egg spot, lol. I don't see one, but it's hard to get a good look
I'll definitely be posting more pics as they heal


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Ha ha yeah i have gotten way to many PK males from cups marked VT heck they look like females too... well what ever he/ she is and the other boy I know they should start looking better and I'm excited to see them


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm pretty interested to see how they turn out as well, lol


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## n3wport (Apr 11, 2011)

my crowntail's finrot was that bad, that short almost touching his body. his fins grew back as if he never had finrot! I bet the same will happen with this fishie!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

update! they both seem to be doing really well this morning, swimming around, and giving me the "this is not bloodworms" face when I give them pellets, lol. for right now I'm calling the first one gray and the second one stripey, just to make it easier to differentiate between the 2 when I talk about them
Gray's looking like he has a bit more color already, and seemed to be a bit upset that I was looking in at him instead of immediately feeding him, lol
















Stripey is almost constantly moving which makes taking pics difficult, lol. Stripey does seem to be a bit less stripey today, lol








right now they're in bare qt containers for treatment, but I'm thinking of getting some little rocks or marbles or something to put in there, just to give them something to look at because they both seem pretty curious


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I have the little "betta bowl" silk plants, that I can put in my qt tanks my fish like em and their easy to clean. 
And their lookin real happy lol. Stripy looks like he/she may have red on them. And grey looks like he is darkening up  i am excited to see what they look like after some tlc for a while.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ooh! Gray is a cutie! I love his blush  I can't wait to see them colour up :3 I want to see how Stripey's fins turn out, he looks worse than what Tranny did and Tranny really looked like a girl... ^-^


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

Creat said:


> I have the little "betta bowl" silk plants, that I can put in my qt tanks my fish like em and their easy to clean.
> And their lookin real happy lol. Stripy looks like he/she may have red on them. And grey looks like he is darkening up  i am excited to see what they look like after some tlc for a while.


yeah, I know they have some little $.99 plants at petsmart so maybe I'll get them each one, and maybe put a couple of things outside their containers as well just so they have more stuff to look at, lol
I'm still thinking Stripey is a boy, so I'm just going to say he for now, lol, but yeah, he definitely seems to have some red in his fins, body color is still a bit of a mystery due to the striping, lol


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

fightergirl2710 said:


> Ooh! Gray is a cutie! I love his blush  I can't wait to see them colour up :3 I want to see how Stripey's fins turn out, he looks worse than what Tranny did and Tranny really looked like a girl... ^-^


yeah, I think Gray has some pretty neat looking coloring with his pink cheeks and dark lips, lol. Stripey's true look is quite a mystery at this point, lol. all I can really tell is that he's got a bit of red in his fins, not even sure about tail type since there's so little of it


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I think Stripey maybe a veiltail.. (I'm obviously guessing lol) But it's fun to find out what they turn into  Its the best part of rescuing.. And all the good karma of couse ;-)


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

he never really seems to spread his tail much, so it's pretty hard to get much of an idea. it would be funny if he ended up being an HM. I'm not counting on it at all, just would be amused if he turned out to be a male HM after being marked as a female VT, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

That would be : Score! In your face, Petco/ Petsmart/ Walmart etc!! XD


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## GunsABlazin (Jun 1, 2011)

aww all this diss on the VT.
they are prettyfull.

But yes...being called a woman would wound his little ego.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I am subscribing to this thread! I hope they get better *O*


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

nothing wrong with it if he is a VT  just that HM's are so much more expensive, so it would be like getting a big discount, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lol! I like Vts! All my girls/ boys are vt save one. And yes, yay! Discount!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

videos ^_^
Gray trying to figure out why I'm not feeding him

Stripey exploring

I got them a couple plants to give them something to look at, but they were too big for their treatment containers, so I pulled a couple stems off to put in with them and stuck the rest and a couple shells next to the containers


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

*Hypnotised by Gray's look tries to feed him through the monitor*
Any colour confirmation on Stripey yet?


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

stripey is still rather stripey so still not sure. the stripes do seem to be fading more though and his body is looking a bit darker, so maybe I'll have a better idea in a couple more days, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ooh ooh I can't wait! I get way too excited over fish -_-


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## metalbetta (May 17, 2010)

Subbed. Can't wait to see how they turn out! And I have 4 VTs myself. Loooove 'em.


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## Hisaki Yuki001 (Jul 5, 2011)

From the looks of the sticker on the cup in your first pic, did you rescue them from Meijer? Meijer's Bettas are always in bad condition here. It ticks me off to see them like that and sad when I go there. I'll only buy a Betta there when I'm looking to rescue the worst off one. Her'es some pictures of my red CT, Mr. Moto which I rescued from a Meijer store near me. Due to the condition him and the others were in when I found them, I sent quite a few complaints through corporate until they did something about it. Even though you can see the infection on his head, this later lead to a serious internal infection that almost claimed his life. After I brought him back from this he suffered signs of Swim Bladder Disorder for about two months. Thankfully, within the last month, he's made a full recovery.

The night I got him:









The same Betta today:


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## TheBlueBettaFish (Jun 30, 2011)

Aww...I rescued my new Halfmoon, Red. I bought him from Petco and his bowl looked like it hadn't been cleaned in a HECK long. And he had some uneaten food so, he was probably living in ammonia.

Striped is sooooo gorgeous!


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## betabettafish (Jul 3, 2011)

You did the right thing by saving those fish. I really hope that they can survive and thrive and that maybe SOMEONE with actually care about awautic life unlike other people!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Gray is so darling, LOL


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

Hisaki Yuki001 said:


> From the looks of the sticker on the cup in your first pic, did you rescue them from Meijer?


they're from petco, pretty sure we don't have meijers around here


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

love Gray's little face, lol








Stripey is definitely losing his stripes, he's also been spreading his tail more, wonder if he'll be a black fire, kind of looking like it at this point


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Daw cute fish are cute... Grey is adorable and Stripy makes me wana hug him lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Wow! Black fire would be amazing wouldn't it?! They're just so darn cute :3!! And gray has a goatee XD


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## PiscisAmor (Jul 1, 2011)

Wow they've really turned around. I rescued Aliquis from a LPS a few months ago, but he was nowhere near as miserable as those guys. Good for you!


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## TheCrysCat (Mar 14, 2011)

They're so cute <3 I can't wait to see what they'll look like.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow, Tisia, they're doing great! As skinny and raggedy as they are, one would expect them to be on the bottom of the container all clamped but they're definitely responding to your care.  I love Gray's face and his black fins. And it's fun with fish like Stripey to see what they'll turn out to be (probably red ;-) ).


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

yeah, I'm pretty surprised they act as healthy as they do with as unhealthy as they look. sure that Stripey is going to be at least partially red, but his body color still kind of seems like a bit of mystery


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I bet whatever Stripey turns out to be he'll be super handsome. Gray, too.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lol! Stripey looks like some lost and confused character from a Miyazaki film, so cute! >3<


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:lol: He does, doesn't he?


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## Hisaki Yuki001 (Jul 5, 2011)

They are sooo cute...^_^ Maybe Itty bitty, the female fry I got last night can join them? jk...^_^ I wouldn't be able to give her up.. ^_^ Yay!!!... for Betta Rescues!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

Hisaki Yuki001 said:


> They are sooo cute...^_^ Maybe Itty bitty, the female fry I got last night can join them? jk...^_^ I wouldn't be able to give her up.. ^_^ Yay!!!... for Betta Rescues!


lol, I know what you mean, I don't think I'd be able to do a rescue group because I'd never be able to let any of them go, lol


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

update
Gray's fins are actually looking worse right now. ended up pm'ing OFL cause I was a bit freaked. kind of thinking now it's not so much getting worse as his fins were just so damaged already








Stripey still seems a bit pale, but much less stripey and the red in his fins seems to be getting brighter








both still very active and being little piggies, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I can definitely see Stripey's red now, that's awesome ! Gray looks the same as the first photo but I think you're right, you couldn't see the damage before, maybe because he was being clampy?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

He does look a little more torn maybe grey does need a little go around of med's? However he does look darker and a little happier so I would freak to much but Stripy is looking better everyday.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

well some of the rips are definitely new, but thinking they were probably eaten away some already previously and just hadn't actually split till now. there's one near the front on his anal fin, and one in the middle of it (there had been a dark spot before which is where it split up to) and a few in his tail.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

Creat said:


> He does look a little more torn maybe grey does need a little go around of med's? However he does look darker and a little happier so I would freak to much but Stripy is looking better everyday.


for now as per OFL's advice I'm sticking with the 2tsp/gallon salt I'm doing, but trying to get lots more IAL tannins in there, and have a bucket outside seeing if I can get any mosquito larva to feed them as well (giving them more frozen for now). if they start acting sicker I may end up trying meds


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Hmm.. have you considered that plant in his tank? it looks pointy Oo


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Stripey looks great! I hope Gray gets better  He doesn't look worse to me, though


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## strangegoose (Jul 4, 2011)

Why are they allowed to sell them in those little cups ?


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

fightergirl2710 said:


> Hmm.. have you considered that plant in his tank? it looks pointy Oo


it's actually pretty soft and passes the nylon test, but I think I will take it out anyways just to be on the safe side with his fins being so delicate right now


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, do that.. I hope his fins fix soon! I can't wait to see him in all his finny glory


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Firstly, I want to say well done for giving these two a good home. It disgusts me to see the utter disregard for life that goes on in some of these stores. To see what was once probably two nice-looking fish in such a state makes me want to go bang my head against something hard. It's such a waste, and I'm glad you picked them up and gave them another shot at life.

Secondly, Gray looks almost identical to one of my males that I purchased from the 'damaged fin' shelf at my LFS. After an initial period of improvement (colouring up, signs of tail regrowth), he suddenly dropped condition and lost whole chunks of his tail. His colour faded and he became very listless. 

Afraid I might lose him, I ended up de-worming him with a Levamisole based wormer. Less than one or two days later his colour had returned to normal, he was showing a lot more interest in his surroundings and was becoming much more aggressive towards the male in the tank over.

A couple of weeks later, his tail is filling in with new growth every day, he has lost that horrible wasted look, and best of all, he has been building bubble nests every few days. 

I wondered whether his original condition was due to a heavy parasite/worm load to begin with, and why his fins had deteriorated to such a state. I worm all my new arrivals now as a precautionary measure, and I just thought I would throw it out there since your boy reminded me so much of my own.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

urg, I'm really hoping that won't be the case. they do seem to be gaining some weight and pooping pretty normally and regularly and I've been using garlic with their food to try to help their immune systems, but I'll definitely be keeping it in mind.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Is the garlic helping? My boys wouldn't touch their noms even after I added garlic D:


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

well they have yet to turn down any food so not sure if the garlic had an effect or not, lol. I think Sven, who was my first guy so I didn't know about the garlic thing then, is the only one of my fish that didn't eat within the first 24 hours, lol. all my bettas are much too big of piggies to be picky


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Hehehe good for them! And your nerves  My two new boys were the only ones who didn't eat for 3 days.. All the rest were hungry hungry hippos  I tried garlic with them, it didn't help any.. I gave the other bettas some garlicky food as well, they turned up their noses at it lol!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

it took Sven about 3 days as well. I don't think the garlic would have really helped since the problem seemed to be that the food was just too big, as soon as I crushed up the pellets, he nommed them right up, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ah, no the crushing didn't work either for them... They just decided they were hungry in 3 days lol! I can never get ANY of my bettas to eat pellets, they've all been fed worms at the stores and they're hooked XD


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

spoiled little brats! lol


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

^_^


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

^-^They're saying thank you! So cute <3!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I find it pretty amusing that they started at the same time, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lol! They were planning it , I love Gray's expression, he looks like he's asking," You likey?"


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## MikiMaki (Jun 23, 2011)

" I make-ah the bubbles for joo mama" - Gray


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

MikiMaki said:


> " I make-ah the bubbles for joo mama" - Gray


XD Lol!!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)




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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Stripy is very much red now lol and Grey looks cuter then ever


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I love Grey's face! He's got such a cute expression. And Stripey looks like he might turn out to be a fancy tail, not a veiltail. I have a feeling he's going to be very handsome. You've done so well with them, Tisia!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I think Stripey's body looks redder in that pic then in real life, but his fins (except his dorsal) are actually a brighter red than in that pic, stupid camera, lol. his dorsal is gray and black
Gray definitely has an endearing little face


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Isn't it interesting how all their fins can rot off but their ventral fins always seem to remain?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Azure had baaad fin rot a week after I got him (I didn't know much 2 years ago ) One of his ventrals was half gone. The rot was so bad that his fins never grew back, they still look like Stripey there... D:


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I think both of their ventrals have been eaten away some, but it does seem like less than the rest of their fins


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's so weird, I see bettas with no fins but their ventrals. *shrugs* Poor Azure, it's odd his fins never grew back.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, now he looks like I abused him or something with half a ventral and barely any tail... His fins heal if they get tears but don't grow out... I thought that was normal before I got the rest of them, I was oh noes I brokeded him! D:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:lol: Was Azure your first betta after Demon?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Azure was my first betta ever! Lol, he's my old boy! I've had him for 2 years but he must be 3 easily... Demon and Cleo were bought 2nd together, 9 months ago, they both died within 2 months of each other... They usd to be roomies in a divided tank which is now the sorority .


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

weird, I know sometimes they grow back kind of wonky, but usually they grow back! lol


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Fighter, oh, so Demon must have died right before I met you, then, because I don't remember you talking about him. 

Tisia, yeah, definitely wonky sometimes but at least it gives 'em personality. :lol:


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

yeah, when Sven lets his tail grow the rays are kind of crooked now, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

You could say they grew back but not enough that anyone would notice ... He still looks like he has it lol!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, Demon was my recluse fish... He never liked me and he was a scaredy cat lol! He'd flare once and ruuuuun! Of all my bettas, he was the one I connected to the least, he was pretty though, black red and purple


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Tisia, that's so funny! You should get a pic of Sven's crooked rays. 

Fighter, I do remember you saying Demon was a, uh, demon when it came to bonding but that's about it. He does sound pretty. Sounds like a little goth boy.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, I wanna see crooked rays ..
He was a goth boy, no, more emo lol! Cleo pwned him once when she jumped to his side lol! He also died of dropsy. I wonder if Cleo got it because of that.. Like it stayed dormant in her or something and flared up because of the sorority stress...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It could have been, if it had been a bacterial infection. Some bacteria and things do stay dormant until the immune system is worn down. :/


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Stupid things X(.. But seriously, I think I hate dropsy the most of all, compared to any other betta disease.. It's almost a death sentence..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I know. Because dropsy could mean just about ANYTHING. Bloat from constipation, parasites, damaged organs . . . ugh. I totally agree with you. Dropsy sucks.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Exactly! I was googling dropsy and apparently humans get it too! D: Freaky! The images were all swollen bellied people.. *shudders*


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ugh, I had no clue. I always thought humans just got bloated. I mean, I know we can get bloated from parasites and all that but . . ugh.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

X( I would really want to unsee that.. It was creepy!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I won't tell you about some of the images in an ecology book about what polluted water can do to humans. Let's just say it involves ankles and things growing out of ankles.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

No! Don't tell me! *runs away with fingers in ears*


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ooookay, moving on to something less disturbing . . .


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Did we just totally hijack this thread? Sorry Tisia!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

heehee yes we go now sorry..


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

just one more day of salt treatment left and they both definitely seem to have some regrowth going on ^_^ sorry the lighting in the pics suck
Gray's (thinking I'll be changing his name to Ashke) body has gotten so dark
















Stripey (still no idea what I'll change his name to) still needs to pack on some pounds, but his fins are definitely looking better


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Wowwie Ashke! Serious makeover! Good job Tisia


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## BettaRepublic (May 22, 2011)

Yes, yes. Excellent improvement! Ashke s doing very well. I remember when you first got her... Anyhow, Stipey needs to pack on a LOT of pounds. When I saw the top view of Stripey, it looked like something bit part of Sripey's side off. Just that big fin on the belly I forgot the name of. So recap: keep it up with Ashke, and try feeding Stripey more and pack on the pounds...


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I've been trying to stuff their faces but Stripey hasn't pooped in a day or 2 and seems to have perpetual bulge so I've had to cut back a bit with him to try and keep him from having bloat issues. kind of concerned about parasites with him, but he's had pretty normal poops up until now and is acting fine, so who knows


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I hope its not parasites.. I'm really paranoid about them now.. They scare me >.>


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## Hisaki Yuki001 (Jul 5, 2011)

looking at the before and after pics of both of them.....All I have to say is: "WOW! They are turning out to be gorgeous!" I love the way Ashke looks.... ^_^ I wanna steal him from you..He's soo cute. They both are BTW. ^_^ I would rename stripey "Torpy" Cause he kinda looks like he has a torpedo shaped head...lol! IDK..for some reason that's the first thought that comes to my mind when I look at him...^_____________^


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I actually ended up changing Stripey's name to Lavan, lol. there was a newer thread about them here, and here's a couple more recent pics ^_^








Lavan with flash so you could see his blue, he had been flaring before I took the pic which is why his gills look so red


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Lavan does look more blue than red in that pic. Someday he'll decide what he wants to be when he grows up. :-D


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

lol, they both like keeping me on my toes


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Tisia, your puppy is hypnotizing me. She's saying, "You will buy more fiiiish, you will buy more fiiiish, you will buy me a chew toy while you're at the story buying more fiiiish. . ."


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure she'll get spoiled, she's too cute not to be, lol


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ooh yes. She'll be spoiled.  But it's not like that's a bad thing or anything like that, haha.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I plan on taking her to puppy training classes, so hopefully she'll at least be a well mannered spoiled, lol


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

And I thought I was just imagining things! The puppy does it to me too! She has a very business like expression XD


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, she's young, but she already knows she's got powers and she's not afraid to use them, haha.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Uh oh! She's telling me to cuddle her now! But how puppy? HOW?! *cries*


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Guess you'll have to cuddle one of the meeces instead and pretend she's a puppy.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

The meeces will poop if I cuddle them XD But you're right.. They're soft too :3 *goes off to cuddle mice*


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I shall make you pairs of mice diapers so you can cuddle with no fear!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

That sounds so cute XD I saw little mouse clothes at some shops but I can't imagine how you get them on the tiny hyper things!


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Oh wow, what a transformation!

mice diapers? :shock: I don't even want to know what you two are talking about *walks away slowly*


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## diablo13 (Jul 1, 2011)

Lol, fighter, if you pet your mice they poop? Lol, now I'm laughing XD


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Nadia poops constantly! She leaves little trails, its really gross -__-


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Eeyeah, I'll get started knitting those mice diapers right now . . .


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## diablo13 (Jul 1, 2011)

Ewww.....I really shouldn't be talking since Sprite...relieves himself..... Every 15 minutes


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

lol, went from fish, to mesmerizing puppies, to mice poop


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lol! HIJACK! We should really do something about that, it's a serious issue.__.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

we should set up a support group for that once we set up one for betta addiction (if we can stop buying them for long enough to set one up) >_>


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You guys realize we hijacked this thread in order to talk about what animal poops the most?

Edit: Posted late again . . .


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## diablo13 (Jul 1, 2011)

Why is it that in every thread sakura or fighter post in becomes highjacked......


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

*embarassed, talks in small voice while looking at feet* I dunno...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

We're a deadly hijacking duo, that's why. :lol:


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## diablo13 (Jul 1, 2011)

Lol, exactly


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sorry Tisia, we now turn this thread back over to you. Even though it's old and you have an updated thread on these two.


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