# Help Me Diagnose



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, even I need help sometimes :-/

Housing 
What size is your tank? Normally the 33 gallon sorority, right now a 1 gallon QT.
What temperature is your tank? Normally 78-79, in QT is 80
Does your tank have a filter? Sorority does (1 Whisper EX45 another AquaClear 30), QT does not.
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? 33 has an airstone, QT does not.
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? 33 gallon sorority with 12 other Betta girls and 3 German Blue Rams

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? NLS
How often do you feed your betta fish? Once daily

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Sorority weekly, QT daily
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? Sorority 30%, QT 95-100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? API Stress Coat

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 6.5
Hardness: N/A presumably soft from driftwood
Alkalinity: N/A

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Anal fin deteriorating, splotches on body becoming discolored.
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Not at all, today she's a little more clamped but she's the happiest, snarkiest sick fish I've ever encountered!
When did you start noticing the symptoms? A long time ago and she's been in an out of QT since then but it started to get really bad about three weeks ago and she's been in QT since then.
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? First started with just AQ salt to give it a try since I didn't really know what was going on yet. Started with 1 tsp/gal then 2, and finally 3/gal. Nothing. So tried Furan-2 thinking it was a strain of columnaris, 5 day treatment and she just got worse. Tried one day of MelaFix; reduced dosage; clamped up hard. Another day of just clean water, happy as can be. Started KanaPlex today.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? Extensive, I bought her ill with Body Slime Infection and then velvet which was caught early and was treated successfully within a week. Never showed up again, got Ich with the rest of the sorority, treated successfully. And then the body slime thing started again.
How old is your fish (approximately)? Approximately around 5-7 months old

So I've had some major issues with this girl and she doesn't seem to be getting any better. I need opinions and hopefully some second diagnoses because I can't figure this one out. I thought it was Columnaris but apparently not. Furan-2 did absolutely nothing for it and she just got worse. Rembrandt and now Raven both have it, it starts on their nose around a face vent and expands from there. I did a course of MelaFix last night and it seemed to really help Raven but she was not looking to good but perked up once I put her in some clean water. Same happened with Rembrandt although he's still just sort of chilling out in his 3 gallon QT heated tank. I just did a water change on everyone in QT.

Also one of my new girls; the orange fancy one for those who follow my log, died today with absolutely no sign of illness at all. Yesterday she was a bit clamped but was happy to see me home, tested water today and nothing was off; a bit of ammonia but that's to be expected in the cups. She was completely colored up when she died and no signs of burns at all. Nothing was ever used on her except sorority water with Stress Coat for conditioner. So I have no idea what the heck was wrong with her and I'm very angry that I can't figure any of this out :-/

I started a KanaPlex treatment for Rembrandt and Matisse today, Raven is just in clean water since she was taking anything so I said heck with it, she's not as bad anyway.

Here's a sequence of pictures from just about a month ago when it really started, spacing them apart or together so you can tell which ones were from the same day.


















A few days ago:









3 day's ago

















2 day's ago:


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Have you considered the possibility of antibiotic resistant columnaris? Every single symptom is indicative of columnaris and it hasn't reacted to treatment...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I have not, in which case, what would I do?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Not really sure... You could try triple sulfa if you haven't yet and aren't allergic to sulphur meds, or H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) baths... Never done them, not sure how to, and not sure how a betta would be affected, but I know it saves lives in the guppy world.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh...of course the one med that I am allergic to :-( I'll do some research on the Hydrogen Peroxide baths, thank you.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So I just found this for H2O2 treatments. She is talking about just spraying the fish with it but I'm still concerned about giving them a bath:

"You can treat smaller fish by: 
1. Netting the fish 
2. In the wet net hold the fish such that it cannot flop around and the wounded side is facing up. 
3. Using a pippete or dropper spray a stream of H2O2 into the wound to clear it of both debris and infection. This treatment should be coupled with an all around antibacterial as well. 
EDIT: Avoid using this on extremely small fish [under 4 inches]. One would only have to imagine the gill damage if any of this got in there. Also avoid using this on extremely injured fish, this will only irritate the fish more and cause more harm than good. "

I guess I assume this is for just straight contact with the regular 3% H2O2 or do you think doing the bath might not be a good idea?


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

10 parts water to 1 part 3% Hydrogen Peroxide for 1 minute never dipped a Betta but Goldfish handle it quiet well. Works wonders for Gill Flukes

Rick


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Apparently a qtip with the end dipped h2o2 works well, and you just swab the worst areas. Then you don't have to risk damaging the gills. If you are to do this I would do the anal fin and the splotches on her body.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay so I would net her and do this then? Should I try the Qtip first and then if I don't see results after a while do the baths? How often should I dab with the Qtip? Once daily?

Also Rembrandt has it on his "nose", between his eyes basically right behind his mouth. 

Here's what Remmy looks like today:


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Based on the first series of photos, and the listed symptoms - it definitely looks like Columnaris to me.

(However, the dot on Remmy looks like ich.....)

*Kanaplex* should work.

The furan meds usually work well on Columnaris, but as Matt suggested, you may have a strain that's resistant to them. 

Maracyn 2 is a potential option. It contains minocycline, which is also a gram negative antibiotic. However, more organisms are resistant to minocycline than to the furan meds. So I'd stick with the Kanaplex. It's a newer medication, and there's less resistance to it. 

You know the rest.... Lower the water temp to about 77F. Do frequent water changes to remove bacteria from the water. Etc.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks LittleBlue, that dot on Remmy's face is actually one of his face vent's, it's not raised at all. His temp has been up at 85 though for the last week or so since I have't reset the heater >.<

Okay so continue KanaPlex, should I do the peroxide just for Matisse then since she's the worse? And not do KanaPlex with her and just do clean water? I feel like that would probably be a better approach and easier on her as well?

Okay.....now how do I treat Callamamus worms  Amara has them, she's also in QT right now but I think she's had them for a month or so now and hence, if you saw my other post about Ovaries, she no longer has hers....everything goes downhill all at once, doesn't it?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

The Camallanus worm is a type of nematode. The two most common antiparasiticals (metronidazole and praziquantel) won't cure this, unfortunately. However, there are two other anthelminthic medications that can work: *Fenbendazole (Panacur) and Levamisole (Ergamisol)*.

*Fenbendazole* is sold under the brand name of *Panacur*. It's a commonly used dewormer for dogs and horses. It's available (in canine/equine version)at places like Tractor Supply. I'm not sure how to dose it for fish, though. Maybe your vet could offer advice?

*Levamisole* is sold under the name of *Ergamisol*. It is used as a dewormer for sheep and cattle. It's available in powder form, which can be used for aquariums. Here's an excellent article that tells you where to get it, and how to use it in aquariums. It even provides dosage calculations: Levamisole Hydrochloride.

Here's an excellent article on Camallanus worms: Camallanus worms

And another good article:

_"For intestinal nematode infections of ornamental fish, several anthelminthics (dewormers) are available. Two effective and commonly used dewormers are fenbendazole and levamisole. Fenbendazole can only be used as a feed additive at the rate of 1.14 grams per pound of food fed for three days, with a repeat treatment in two to three weeks. Levamisole can be used both in the feed and as a bath treatment. One effective oral dose is 1.8 grams of levamisole per pound of food fed once a week for three weeks. One effective bath treatment dose is 2 ppm (mg/liter) levamisole for 24 hours, with a repeat treatment in two to three weeks. However, be sure to consult with a fish health specialist before commencing any treatment and always follow their recommendations."_

Source: Nematode (Roundworm) Infections in Fish


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## peachii (Jan 6, 2013)

*Fenbendazole* is sold under the brand name of *Panacur*.

We just treated our cherry shrimp tank with this to get rid of planaria. We emptied a tea bag and put .1g into it and then stuck it into the filter. Our shrimp tank is 7.9 gallons. All cherry shrimp are alive and well today. For fish, I don't know if you would increase the dose more posting to let you know we used it on our cherry shrimp and 14 hours later they (even the brand new hatched babies) are alive and well with absolutely no ill effects. The powder doesn't seem to dissolve so the tea bag was more of a precaution to dissolve and keep granules out of the water than anything.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks, that's what I thought. I had done some reading on it after seeing Skyewillow's post about them.

It is highly contagious, correct? If so, what are the changes all my fish have them and, is it okay to use with plants in the case if I were to treat the entire tank and possibly all of my fish? Can it be used as a preventative if my other boy's don't have it but just in case? Or would it be contained just to the places that Amara has been in?

Thank you peachii, I can definitely get some tea bags easily as we have like ten million types around the house lol. That makes it a little better. And I don't have a vet around here but I have a few friends who are fish majors so I'll consult with them to see what they think I can do in terms of the dog dewormers. He's already okayed me to use the H2O2 for my fish and is going to give me his formula for small fish today when I see him so that should be good. But he said the information found from this site: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2017249 (Sorry, I know it's a different forum but I haven't found it elsewhere :-() that it's good to follow that formula for small fish as well. So if I get home early enough from school, I'll start with the Qtip for Matisse, see how Rembrandt and Raven are doing and see if I can find some of that dog dewormer.

Thank you all for bearing with me. It was one hell of a day yesterday. I also lost my orange marble girl from Catw0man, she had absolutely no signs of illness except clamping the day before. I came home yesterday and she's gone, she was still colored up which I found odd. But I've gone through all the other possibilities and nothing...:-/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah that dot on Remmy's face went away, I think it might have actually been a bubble since I had just done a water change for him.

I tried the Q-tip and H2O2 for Mattie and she was NOT having it, holy mackerel! I was able to get at least her anal fine and one side of her body before I had to put her back in. She immediately clamped up and went unmoving. I though she was dead so I poked her! But she moved and eventually unclamped her fins but her pectorals stayed clamped for quite a while and I think they still might be.

Remmy seems to be responding much better to the KanaPlex as is Raven, Mattie...well it's kind of hard to tell with her. I'll check on her in the morning.

EDIT: Also, can Callamamus Worms destroy ovaries or something? I have a feeling that's what happened to Amara and why I no longer see her ovaries or the shape of them. I don't know how they'd do it but that would be my only explanation to why her ovaries are now missing.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Took some pictures of Rembrandt, the stuff looks a little less pronounced I believe. Let me know what you think.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

H2O2 is an oxidizer. I wonder if you can just add an oxidizer directly to the tank. PP is one, as is phenoxyethanol. (Interpet Anti Fungus and Finrot contains phenoxyethanol. I don't know if it's available in the US though.)

The Kanaplex should be effective against Columnaris though. It might just take a little longer than the peroxide.

Callamamus Worms live in the intestinal tract. I don't see how they could affect the ovaries, but I also don't know a lot about their life cycle. Is it possible that she's just not eggy right now because she's ill? Maybe when she's healthy again, her ovaries will start producing eggs again. (This is speculation....)


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I've heard PP can be used. You could also try that. I would still swab the worst areas with H2O2 though, it should kill it. 

Have you done the H2O2 treatment yet?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah but even when females aren't eggy, the ovaries still exsist, they shouldn't shrink up like that and completely disappear. For a series of pictures of Amara you can look here to see her ovary shrinkage: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=261466

Also Matt, look three comments above to #15. Did a swab to Matisse, she's still not looking well today, perhaps not worse so that's a good thing at least.

These pictures are from yesterday after the H2O2 swabs.










































I'll get up her pictures from today soon.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

How long has she been in Kanaplex? What's the current water temp?

I would keep the water temp no higher than 77F. If she's ok with cooler water, then 76F would be even better. 

I have to believe that Amara's ovaries are still there. Could her color have changed, making it more difficult to see them? Or is she bloated (due to the worms)? This could make it more difficult to see them, too.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

She's been on it for just two day's now so I'm not expecting any real results for a bit now. Temp I believe is at 75-76 last I checked which is just the temp my room stay's at so that works well.

Honestly though, Amara isn't bloated much at all. At least she doesn't look it to me and I've had bloated fish around her as well. Even if she were bloated up bad, you'd be able to see the outline of the ovaries if not even more pronounced. But she literally sucks down to nothing after her stomach. And her color can't hide it because even when she's fully colored up, I can still see through her, I can see her swim bladder and the different organs around her body so really her color can't effect it much. 

Pictures of Mattie as of today only an hour or so ago:










































And some pictures of Amara showing the worms. Okay so I can still see some of her ovaries but they are significantly smaller still or at least shorter. I was comparing on her body where they stopped before and it's definitely pulled more toward the front if that makes sense at all.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Those worms are nasty things. I would get the suggested meds ASAP... Good luck with them. 

I'm thinking she could have absorbed eggs and some energy from her ovaries to make up for the lost nutrients that the worms steal, but that's just speculation. 

I would keep doing H2O2 treatments daily... Worth a shot.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's a good speculation about Amara, didn't really think about that.

Okay so Mattie now has an open wound on her side....I did the H2O2 swab this morning, not realizing that there was an open wound, not sure if I swabbed that part or not but presumably I did because of the anal fin and where it's positioned. She's clamped up her right side where the wound is, still lots of cottony growth and she's slowed down. She's still eating just fine, gobbled up the frozen brine shrimp today but isn't swimming around like crazy now.

Rembrandt has gone back to his fresh, sassy self and flared at me a few times today; wouldn't let me get good pictures though :-/ he looks about the same though, perhaps a little less? I'll compare photos later. I have to finish sorting through photos and will post them later.

I'll let Mattie go two more day's and if she gives up on me, then I think it might be time.

EDIT: Okay, it's not exactly an open wound I think but rather it looks like a dip in her body. Like her top scales peeled away and there were some scales underneath it but only a thin layer. An actual open wound would see the insides? Or like in humans, are there layer's that have to be eaten through first?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So this is the best picture Rembrandt would allow me of him today >.<









Then he gave me this >.> well you can see it's raised a bit but not terribly.









Mostly got this side of him...sigh, difficult fish. But it's not really on this side of his face anymore, so that's good, yeah?









Then got the flare, so he's in good spirits; eating like a pig and begging for more, roaming his territory and flaring.









Okay, Matisse is actually being a little less clampy than I thought as I now look back at the older photos. So that's a good sign, yes?









Those really orange spots are two out of three of those "dips/holes" I was talking about earlier. So it's not open per sé but it's not looking good either.









And this is the bigger one on her right side. She clamps her right pectoral always, there's fuzz hanging off that and right behind is where the "open" wound is, there's a few strands of fuzz around it as well.









Clamped here









Anal fin looks a little better here, there's no fuzz hanging off of it now.

















Orange spot on her stomach is not the open spot, it's the orange spot behind her stomach, basically on her ovaries.









Close up of the bigger wound. Whoa...new fin growth on the anal fin :shock:


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

It's actually good that you got peroxide onto the open wound. It's an antiseptic, so it'll kill off any bacteria that are on it, which will lessen the risk of infection.

Are you using Kanaplex on her? Or just the H2O2?

Edited to add:

This was on the Seachem website:

_Kanaplex is also very effective when used in a medicated food mix. The medicated food mix calls for Focus, KanaPlex and Garlic Guard. Focus has antibacterial properties and will bind the medication and the food together. Garlic Guard will entice the fish to eat, while also adding the beneficial properties of garlic. Binding the medication to the food is also a good idea in situations like yours where there are live plants in the tank. This way, less of the medicine is available to potentially harm the plants. To read more about these products, please see the following links:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/GarlicGuard.html
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Focus.html

When medicating with an antibiotic, it is also a good idea to regularly add a bacterial supplement, in order to boost your biological filter during the treatment process. I would recommend adding some Stability to replenish any colonies of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria that may have been affected by the antibiotic and frequent water changes. To read about Stability, please see the following link:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html_

Source: http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3935


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Got conflicting advice on that one but I trust what you say more and now that I think about it, that does sound right >.< my friend was telling me about how some kid had gotten H2O2 and alcohol in an open wound and apparently ate his arm up but I don't really think that's right lol. Sorry Lucillia.

I'm using KanaPlex on her as well and also administering orally by 1-3 freeze dried bloodworm since it soaks it up the best in the small water solution. So I'm using both KanaPlex normally, by food and using the H2O2 swabs.

Also she's in a 1 gallon QT, would it really be necessary to add the bacterial supplement? I'm not using any of the antibiotics in the tank, just the QT's which don't go near the tank.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Um, what? :shock: No... Flesh eating bacteria may eat up an arm. But alcohol and peroxide won't. 

However, there is conflicting info about whether it's beneficial (or not) to use these. (See below.)

No, you don't need the bacterial supplement for the QT tank, since there's no filter/cycle. I wasn't sure if you were treating the large tank though. The bacterial supplement info was re the big tank.

Here is some H2O2 effect on wounds info:

_"Cleaning the wound with hydrogen peroxide and iodine is acceptable initially, but can delay healing and should be avoided long-term."_

Cuts, Scrapes (Abrasions), and Puncture Wounds: http://www.medicinenet.com/cuts_scrapes_and_puncture_wounds/article.htm

_"[A study] in The American Journal of Surgery, looked at more than 200 people who had appendectomies and found that hydrogen peroxide did not reduce the risk of infection at the site of their incisions. But according to the American Medical Association, hydrogen peroxide does have at least one benefit: it can help dislodge dirt, debris and dead tissue in some wounds."_

The Claim: Hydrogen Peroxide Is a Good Treatment for Small Wounds: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/health/19real.html?_r=0


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

lol yeah, I was too tired I think to really comprehend what she was saying. I'm sure it was just the infection since I've used plenty of my own share of peroxide on open wounds/cuts to clean it out.

So continue daily usage of the H2O2 swabbing or should I start looking at using H2O2 bath's as Matt suggested on the first page? And of course continuing the KanaPlex dosing.

Thanks for the info on that! You always have the best references!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, no pics for today but I opted to do the H2O2 bath today since I can't always get the wounds on Mattie while she's in the net, rather hard when she's a feisty girl! So I did the 2 Liters of water and roughly 3.4 ml of Hydrogen peroxide in the water. Put Mattie in and did the water changes to the other girls who are still in QT. I realized that Lynx had some spots opening up too >.> She's been on KanaPlex the last four day's or so and still this happened. So I split the tank diagonal and threw her in there as well.

Mattie soaked unhappily for 35 minutes (lost track of time by accident), took her out and threw Jewel in there since she wasn't looking too hot either. Her anal fin has been torn up and showing no signs of regrowth so I figured it couldn't hurt her to do a short bath, she was only about 10 minutes in there but I plan to do another tomorrow anyway. I also split it again for three and put Little Blue in for 20 minutes and then back into the KanaPlex they all went.

Tried soaking freeze-dried BW's again in KanaPlex, Mattie was the only one who would eat them, Remmy, Jewel, Lynx and LB all refused them....stuck up brat's...since they've had frozen foods they won't eat anything freeze-dried or at least not readily and won't eat flakes much either.

Tomorrow I want to do a bath again on Mattie, Little Blue, Lynx, Jewel, Emma and Rembrandt. I think I might take out Jewel and Emma as well since their anal fins are not healing at all so the KanaPlex will at least help that and the bath's can't hurt so I think that's a good plan for now.

Mattie doesn't look any better but she doesn't look too much worse either so I think that's a good sign at least. Rembrandt is still being sassy, couldn't get a good look at him today but looks like the patch might be receding, I'll take a better look tomorrow after work.

Ugg I'm so tired right now. I'm not sure about Amara, she still looks fine and eats well of course, pooping regularly. I don't know when I can get the dewormer stuff. Right now the false MG girl is in the other 1 gallon working with Cupramine for her Velvet, keeping her under the blanket to help. I peeked today and looked like the majority of her velvet was gone after 3 day's of the treatment. Still have plenty of day's left to go though, I believe it's a 14 day treatment in total.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So Mattie is still hanging in there, she was very unclamped last night which caused me to be happy haha. Rembrandt is still being super sassy and flaring at me....he's a little bugger for sure! But his spot isn't receding much but it's not getting worse so I'm happy.

I started to dose the 33 with KanaPlex since it doesn't hurt plants when used correctly so I hope I can just stop this where it is. I didn't do any H2O2 bath's yesterday to give them a break, I know Mattie was not enjoying it and want to give her a chance to heal a little bit. She's still growing out her anal fin already where she still has fin.

I only have three pics of her since I took a video but apparently I can't add it to my laptop because I've run out of disk space.....what even? lol so I'm trying to delete old internet pics that I don't need that I saved like forever ago.


























Her right pectoral is all slimey now and almost non-existant so there's still some fin loss going on. I'm wondering if I should start her on 1 tsp/gal of AQ salt with the KanaPlex in hopes to get rid of her fuzzies, invigorate her slime coat so she might be able to heal a little more and to balance out her electrolytes; that should help right?

Or would that just be too much for her do you think? Today when I get home I'll be doing bath's again since I think they're more beneficial than the swab which I can't get all of her sometimes, so that way it get's all of her.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay well Mattie is still alive as of this morning. Tonight is another dose of KanaPlex and another H2O2 bath for all who are bad right now.

I added the second dose of KanaPlex to the 33 and all are tolerating very well, I figured the Ram's wouldn't be to excited about this but they're doing just fine, plants are all alive as well.

Hopefully I won't be too dead myself tonight when I get home that I can actually do that bath's and change everyone's water. Tomorrow I do all my water changes for all the tanks so I'll be redosing the sorority tank after that with what was lost in water changes. And yes, carbon has all been taken out prior to medicating. Fish are all still eating and all the other girls are seemingly healthy and well.

Jewel was not looking happy last night but she seemed better this morning, Emma looks like she's got some fin loss as well. Mattie is alive, didn't get a good chance to look at her; same with Rembrandt and Lynx. Raven was added back into the sorority last night after lights out since she's over her part of the illness and the tank is medicated anyway so there's no reason for her to be in QT. Lynx has started to get sores like Mattie's but not bad, they didn't look any worse on Wednesday after the H2O2 bath and seemed to look a bit better unless I was hallucinating which I could very well have been doing since I haven't been well myself.

So in all, it seems to be fine and on their way to recovery, I just wish it would happen sooner :-/ I know patience is a virtue and all but I'm just so over doing all the water changes for their cups right now, not with school at least and that's why I won't be breeding fish while still in school; that's way to much for anyone to handle I think. Of course it doesn't help when I myself am sick because of new ADHD meds and stuff >.< but y'know....yolo?


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## cejamieson (Apr 29, 2013)

*Swims to top tail first?*

We have a female betta that tries to swim to the bottom of the tank but immediately floats to the top, tail first. She is normally very active. Can someone give us suggestions on how to help her. I have changed the water, temperature is ok. I put a pea in the water incase it's swim bladder.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

cejamieson said:


> We have a female betta that tries to swim to the bottom of the tank but immediately floats to the top, tail first. She is normally very active. Can someone give us suggestions on how to help her. I have changed the water, temperature is ok. I put a pea in the water incase it's swim bladder.


You can try to make your own thread in the Disease section, you'll get more attention there. It's most likely an issues with her swim bladder but pea's will not help her. Pea's are good for fiber but not for digestion since Betta's cannot digest them properly. If you want a laxative, find some Daphnia and that will help.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So I was going to do more H2O2 bath's but I'm so exhausted tonight that I'm just going to upload some pics and leave you with that.

Mattie was extremely active today, it was hard to get decent pictures when I took like 60 lol









































































And Rembrandt

















Jewel is looking a bit better:









Emma isn't (middle white one)









Little Blue's very pale spots are mostly gone, going from this:









To this, she's still pale as in stressed but looks healthier I think

































EDIT: I lied, I think LB looks worse now that I compare photos for real :-/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So next question.

Since this apparently is looking more like Mycobacteria and from the pictures I've seen, it is. Do I have to euthanize all apparently infected fish or everyone.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I still think it's columnaris... Myco usually doesn't involve fuzzies. 

IF it is myco, you don't have to destroy anyone, honestly. Especially if you know for a fact every fish has been exposed, you can let them live out their lives and put them down when they are ready to go. Killing fish that have already done their damage does no good.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

+1 on everything that Matt said.

Why do you think it's Myco?

If the Kanaplex doesn't work, then look into fungal and mold diseases, especially ones like _Aspergillus_. Fungal and mold disorders can cause white, gray, pink or other colored patchy growths.

That said, you may want to wear nitrile or latex gloves while working in the tanks. This will protect you from any pathogens (regardless of what they are). And if you change the gloves each time you move to the next tank, this will help cut down on the risk of cross-contamination.

(I was going to post some info about fungal/mold diseases, but Acrobat just crashed. I need to reinstall it. If I do that now, I'll lose this post though.)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Because of the links that Basement_Bettas gave me on BettaSource, the photos look exactly like how my fish are looking and I'd link it but I know it's not allowed. I'll put the photos up instead. But this first photo looks EXACTLY like what Rembrandt looks like. Remmy's spot has also not decreased.









And this is what Mattie's anal fin looks like, this was how it started and then it just spread from there.
EDIT: whoa that came out big, let's try this again.









The thing that had always struck me odd about my fish and the possible Columnaris was that they don't have the regular fuzzies and never did. Mattie's "fuzzies" are and were only at her anal fin after the fin deteriorated but never on her actual body and that goes for all my fish who are infected.

Lynx has the open sores as well and her caudal is half gone as well now.

But just because some fish have been openly infected does not mean all of them will be infected until they get stressed and open for the disease? Is that right or am I just spitballing here? Also a few weeks ago Shadowcat had died from Dropsy, presumably from Myco's now. And this would explain a little more of my orange marble girl's mysterious death.

And so far KanaPlex doesn't seem to be doing much. Rembrandt has perked up but that's about his, his spot is still there; Mattie's entire right pectoral is now gone and her sores are getting worse. Lynx's tail is half missing as said before, open wounds, Emma and Jewel both have rapid fin loss and I haven't really seen any new growth in the last two weeks either.

And about the glove...since I submerge my entire arm most of the time in the 33, will the gloves still be beneficial or would they become a moot point for that? I've only had one siphon and so consequently it's gone around the room, so do they all are infected with Myco's now or just the sick ones and not the healthy ones?

I'm sorry for my negativity, this has just become a huge mountain for me rather than an ant hole and it's not been an easy two weeks regardless of fish anyway.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So...any comments about this??

Came home to dad's and found Little Blue missing, she was near the filter intake, dead and pretty much entirely eaten.....I thought it was Jewel at first because she was missing as well but upon trying to take her out, found out that it was LB. Then I found Jewel dead and dried up on my carpet near my closet door, not far from the tank. She must have jumped Sunday or so since she was completely black, dried up completely and I almost didn't recognize her at all. So both have been bagged and thrown in the garbage.

Mattie is still alive, didn't get much a chance to look her over completely but I didn't see any new growth. She looks about the same as from the last pictures I posted here, same with Rembrandt.

Lynx still has her ulcer's and Emma still has fin loss. The other boy's seem to still be not effected but since I only have one siphon and one bucket...well there's your answer for that.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hopefully, no one else will die. If they do, ask Matt or Sakura for necropsy instructions. Use a magnifying lens to look at the internal organs.

You won't be able to 100% verify whether it's Myco or not, but you can look for the lesions and granulomas that can indicate its presence.

In answer to your previous questions:

Mycobacteria is present in soil, as well as places like aquariums. It's opportunistic. So yes, a stressor (age, health, stress, etc) can allow it to overcome the fish's immune system, and gain a foothold.

If it is Myco, then your fish have all been exposed, and are harboring it. Some may get sick. Others may remain healthy (for an indefinite time). Others may become susceptible to other illnesses (for example, Columnaris).

Since you submerge your arm, that area will have been exposed to any pathogens in the water. I wouldn't worry about it. BUT if you develop a non-healing sore, mention this to your doctor. The bacteria need an entrance, which could be a cut or abrasion, etc. Being exposed doesn't mean that you will develop an infection, it just means that you MIGHT develop one. It's rare for people to become infected, but it does happen on occasion (especially if the immune system is compromised in some way)... If you do develop a non-healing sore, tell your doctor that you have an aquarium that may harbor _Mycobacterium marinum_, and request a culture.

Sorry about LB and Jewel.....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, thanks LBF.

Yeah, would be hard to do a necropsy on LB or Jewel lol.....yeah....

Is there any time cap on how long it will take for healthy fish to die or is it just all up in the air? Euthanization is completely up to me, yes? So like asking if I should euthanize Emma and Lynx since they have very visible signs of being sick and in distress, is a rather moot point?

So since all my tanks have been infected by now, or at least assumingly have been, should I just carry on as usual and not really worry about disinfecting my hose or anything? Or should I disinfect/get a new one for the boy's who seem to be not infected since that siphon has gone around the room many times by now.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

There's no timeline. Myco is a wasting disease. So there may be a slow decline. Or the fish may look just fine.... 

Or since the immune system is dealing with Myco, it may allow a secondary infection to take hold. So the fish can look like it's sick with something else.

Euthanasia is always a personal decision. Some people do it sooner, others later, others not at all. There are a lot of factors to consider:
- Do you ship, breed, or show fish?
- Do you want to bring in new (uninfected) fish?
- Do you worry about having this pathogen in your house?
- Etc etc etc....

If you've been using the same equipment on all the tanks, there isn't much you can do. It's likely that any pathogen has been spread around. On the other hand, if you're paranoid, then you would reduce the risk on contamination (if it hasn't already occurred). And, if you get a new tank, that would be the time to also get new equipment. (Or disinfect your current equipment.)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Right, makes sense.

Well my dad has already freaked out when I mentioned tuberculosis and was like Flush ALLL the fish! And then I had to explain to him why I couldn't flush them because of risks to the environment and all lol

Since there are still no changes with Rembrandt and Matisse's visible spots would that indicate anything? Like would I rule columnaris out since the KanaPlex doesn't seem to be doing much except giving them a little extra energy boost? By a week's time (now) I should be able to see some results? I did buy Jungle Lifeguard since it's the only 'fungal' type medication we have since you mentioned fungal stuff. Should I start to use that in conjunction with KanaPlex to see if it might help or is it just null and void now?

I'll be going to my dad's tonight so I should be able to get pictures of Lynx and Emma to show you as well as Mattie and possibly Rembrandt if he isn't feeling to sassy.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay so I got 91% rubbing alcohol.

Mattie now has what I think is velvet, although could be Ich. It's kind of hard to tell actually. But either way it's a perfect environment for her to get a secondary infection >.< So done.

Pictures of her that I could get:









It's starting to eat at her caudal now as well.









Here's Emma

























And Lynx that I could get, she wouldn't sit still >.>
She's very ragged

















Everyone else seems fine. I added another dose of KanaPlex. Should I add the Jungle Lifeguard just to see if it will help at all?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Tell your dad that "fish TB" is NOT the same as "human TB."

_Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ is what causes TB in humans. It isn't carried by fish, and isn't found in fish tanks....

There are a lot of other types of Myco. Several are found in aquatic environments, including ones like _Mycobacterium marinum_. They can cause nasty skin infections in people, but they don't cause tuberculosis. 

Here's an excellent article about Myco in fish: Mycobacterial Infections of Fish - SRAC Fact Sheets

Jungle Lifeguard contains 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone.  It's an oxidizer (like PP and peroxide), and contains chlorine which disinfects the water...... (My question is always: didn't we just add conditioner to neutralize chlorine?)


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Let your dad know that the only way he could get ill of the fish is by sticking his hands in the tank with open wounds... And the worst that could happen is painful sores.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

And this is what Lynx looked like today, sorry it was the only picture that came out >.> she get's a little too excited when I come near....









And Emma today. It always starts with the ventral fins, then moves to the anal sometimes working backwards but mostly just eating away at it in general and then moves to the caudal if given enough time. Mystique has it starting between her caudal and anal but on her anal fin.









Top view, well you can't tell in this one but she was clamping her right pectoral just like Mattie was before it deteriorated. Otherwise she technically looks healthy right now.









Mattie is still alive and kicking it, I need to start dosing her for velvet although I'm even sure it's worth it honestly :-/ don't mean to be so cold hearted with that but even if the necropsy turns up negative for Myco's what then? What would eat all the fins with no fluffiness, give the girls sores but not kill them right away? Or even after a long period of time? What kills with dropsy like symptoms (Shadowcat), or no symptoms at all (Orange marble girl) and then weakens the fish to death who is then eaten (Little Blue) and I'd say 'cause a fish to jump' lol but they do that anyway. What else is there that would do all this? Is it a conglomeration of just..disease?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I would PM Coppermoon and Basement Bettas. If anyone can tell you the signs of Myco (versus another disease), it would be the two of them..... :-(


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, on another forum I had actually just had an introduction and Basement_Bettas is the one who actually brought up the possibility of Myco's and we've been talking about it whenever she get's on.

Either way though, I mean really, I don't see many options here other than letting them live out their lives and just euthanize when they show these signs and just not add any more fish and then when we get down to the last two; well get that done and just completely tear the tank down.

In some way's it's a weird kind of "good" thing since we will be moving most likely come January/February and I project that by then, my tank numbers will have definitely decreased and it's almost like "setting" up to make it easier for me to move.

Regardless, I do want to get the necropsy done of course, not doing anything until then, I just speculate and talk aloud mostly because I'm just frustrated and you guys mostly understand as opposed to rambling about fish to my friends. I know most of us deal with that ^_^ I'm glad I do have a few friends who love and adore fish as much as I do  but I'm sure they get tired of hearing me talk haha.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So Mattie's spots seem to have receeded a little but still looks horrible, disease is starting to effect her caudal as well however it left still just a little bit of her anal fin which I found weird. But she's still in high spirits, I gave her clean water with no meds in it today since it seems useless to be wasting meds now. I also have Rembrandt fresh water as well.

One of my bigger, older girls now has what looks like a fat lip, that or her top "lip" has suddenly wasted away/rotted and now looks like her bottom 'jaw' is protruding. I tried to get a picture but everyone in the sorority get's too excited when I get close >.< which is nice but not nice when I'm trying to take pictures!

Mystique's anal fin is still deteriorating but at a slower pace than before, her ventral fins have nearly rotted away. It always seems to attack the ventral fins first, then anal and then caudal afterwards with some body things in the middle there. She's slowed down but it's hard to tell since she was never super active from the beginning, she was a PetCo girl that I bought 8 months ago now. She was what started the sorority in fact.

Emma, the white dragon I posted before has given up on me. She's started to pinecone today and I took her out and put a pinch of ES in a cup, dissolved it and put her in, she just sat there and looked at me. She wouldn't eat more than 1 pellet either and wouldn't take frozen bloodworms which used to be her favorite. So I don't expect her to stay with us much longer.

Lynx has had more fin loss and I've had this one MG girl that has had pop-eye since she came from Canada yet not KanaPlex or nothing has cured her of it. And it's blatantly obvious it's pop-eye as well, not just slightly larger than normal eye's or a small body since she is huge; half-giant sized.

Hard to tell but here's Emma, it's rather fuzzy because I...I accidentally dipped my camera lens into her water >.< thankfully it was fine when I let it dry out but that was scary! So here's fuzzy picture of her and her start of pineconing. So far it's just in the stomach area but I could see it starting to spread by the time that I left the house. She's basically a body; no fins besides her dorsal :-(









And here's Lynx, still highly spirited and eating well but you can see the obvious fin loss from my last post to this one.









Well that's all I've got for an update. I know there's really no advice that you guys can give from here and out but I like to give the update anyway, it helps me to just keep track of things and sort things out when they're all jumbled in my head and my head is certainly all jumbled up as of late.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Did you try metronidazole? I know it's an antiparasitical, but it's also effective against some anaerobic internal bacteria. I don't know that it will help Emma, but it might be worth trying with the others. Combined with Kanaplex, maybe it'll do some good....

What's happening with the Camallanus worms? Have you tried Fenbendazole (Panacur) or Levamisole (Ergamisol)? If so, any luck?

Also, did Coppermoon's and Basement Betta's fish all get sick at once like this? Myco is a wasting disease. But you guys all seem to be getting sick one after another. Although, it's possible that the Myco is stressing their immune systems, which is making them susceptible to all these other things. :-(


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I haven't because I have no money >.< I'm waiting for my paycheck this Friday and hoping it's enough to cover gas and my phone bill :-/ so Amara, the girl with the worms is still alive and in QT since I REALLY don't want that spreading around. I haven't been feeding her a lot, like 3 pellets or so tops each day with fasting Monday and Tuesday since I'm not there, but went to check on her today (well everyone) and she hasn't been fed since Sunday and I noticed she pooped like..a lot. so that was kind of weird, irrelevant but I just found odd since she didn't even eat much and hasn't eaten much since I QT'd her; want to keep ammonia down of course.

I don't think I was around for Coppermoon and Basement_Betta's Myco's outbreak and hadn't found any threads on it though. But what I'm thinking is just the ones who aren't showing symptoms have just not been stressed out enough to get sick if that makes sense? So basically it's just eating up from the bottom girls and going up the hierarchy, kind of interesting since now I can see who is alpha and who isn't but still. I really don't know.

I'm hoping to ask my boss tomorrow if I can borrow a microscope so I can do this necropsy sooner rather than later however I don't think it matter's too much since once they [fish] give up, it's the end of the road for them. We have fish experts in the building I work in, I'm just not sure how to approach them about either helping me or doing the necropsy for me since I don't want to screw up, only so many fish I can do this on lol. But with their trained eye I'm sure they would know more of what to look for and stuff like that.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Emma has passed (white dragon girl) she gave up to Dropsy, although that's hard to technically fight I know lol. But Pineapple the one with the rotted mouth is now going into Dropsy mode more. I've cupped her as well as Lynx who pretty much has no tail...I'll get pictures up later.

Going to ask my boss today if he's in a good mood about the microscopes. Here's to hoping!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay so this is what Lynx looks like now, she's currently out of the sorority though in her own cup since I'm expecting her to expire soon.


































And probably not necessary but how Emma looked when I found her; definitely Dropsy. It was sudden as well. She was skinnier or normal all this time and then when I checked on her like five minutes after the first time I checked on her [alive then] she was gone and bloated quite a bit.









Pineapple in the start of Dropsy mode

















Here's a pic of her mouth and what it looks like. So she's in a cup now as well.









And here's Mattie, all her spots have gone which I think is...weird. All I did was give her clean water without any meds in it and spots were gone within 24 hours. I'm sure it's just part of their life cycle whatever it is and they'll just infect her again but yeah...her temp stays' around 74 degree's from originally thinking of Columnaris.









She's still as bright and as feisty as ever...









(Spots are from the tank)









Everyone else is fine right now. I've been trying to get pics of Mystique and her anal fin, it's stopped for the most part right now which is nice but I can clearly see something is bothering her, she's not her usually witchy self lol.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm intrigued.... you have access to a microscope and you have "fish experts" in your building at work.... What do you do? (If you don't mind sharing that info on a public forum with people you've never met! LOL I completely understand if you prefer not to answer that question, too.  )

What's the temp in the main tank? If Mattie continues to do well in 74F water, whatever they all have may be temperature dependent. If that's the case, lowering the water temp may help slow down the life cycle. 

So... am I understanding this right?..... Emma looked normal, then became bloated and died in just minutes?

How many are currently unaffected? Are they all QT'd or are they still in the main tank?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, I'm trying to find the right people to talk to but it's difficult to get in touch with the actual professors when I'm there -_- that or they're not friendly to talk to and when you try to catch them they're all like "Oh I'm busy, I have to go NOW" and then runs away from you....not as easy as one would think. But they're just in the CBLS building on campus; University of Rhode Island, not sure what question you were asking about "what do you do".

All tanks are currently at 74-76 as much as I can keep them there, the house is now heated because my grandfather turned on the heat early (ugg sucks to sleep at night, so hot! and the heat is off in my room still >.>) 

And no, Emma was worse for wear for a few weeks if you go back in this post. She started to loose fins like a month ago but the rapid fin loss that was not from bites from the other girls started two weeks ago and then progressed quickly for a day or two and then slowed down. Then the day she started to go Dropsy she lost more fins and started to pinecone, took two day's for her to die and completely bloat up. So no, it's not as instant as Myco's would do.

Currently everyone is still in the main tank except for Mattie who was obviously pulled out first. Then I have three girls who have never been in the actual tank but was in the tank water for a little while in their cups but seem uneffected at all. And then Amara (worms) is still out plus Lynx who I took out because I didn't want the girls to eat her when she died. So that makes 3 who have never been in tank water, two who are out for the disease and 1 with worms.

In the actual tank right now only three are now effected, Mystique had some fin loss on her anal fin but seems to have stopped progressing for now. Cherry now has fin loss and Raven has the spots starting up. The rest are seemingly uneffected for now.

That leaves 14 girls left in the actual tank plus the 3 GBR's and 3 of those 14 girls are now effected.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Still no luck trying to catch Linda, I have to find her email somewhere, she's in charge of all the lab stuff.

Anyway, new pics. Here's Rembrandt









And Maddie's condition worsens. She doesn't want to swim at all and looks like she's still trying but has no energy. She didn't eat yesterday so I think her time's up soon. I was going to euthanize her yesterday with the cold water method but since she's already on her way out, I figured I'd just make her comfortable until she does go. Her patches have become fluffy and her scales are starting to pinecone but there's no swelling at the moment. But this was all yesterday, not sure how she looks today.

























And here's a picture of Cherry, the small red one. She's always been small, but I feel like she's getting smaller....everyone else is just growing up I guess!









Aurora and her large nipped tail which is showing signs of those stringy things at the edge of the bite.









Mystique's deteriorating anal fin hasn't been deteriorating lately but you can see where there's a clear space between the back part of it and the caudal, that's where it deteriorated with no signs of fin nipping either.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh! I didn't know you were a student at URI. Or actually, I think you did mention this at some point. I just didn't remember. 

Rembrandt looks ok to me. (He's soooo pretty!  )

It looks like Maddie either has Columnaris or Saprolegnia. (Columnaris if it's growing on healthy tissue. Saprolegnia if it's growing on dead/dying tissue.) Either way, it would be a secondary infection, due to her immune system not being able to fight other stuff off now....

Cherry & Mystique look pretty much OK right now, from what I can see in the photos.

Aurora - can't see the details, but it also sounds like either Columnaris or Saprolegnia.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Maddie seems to have Columnaris


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It could be myco or columnaris (or saprolegina). Necropsy is needed for a diagnosis, since it could be either...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, Mattie passed yesterday. Well I found her body yesterday, I think she went Monday night though since she was still pretty flexible and wasn't completely covered in slime, telling me she was gone no more than 12-14 hours most likely.

Rembrandt is still acting fine, he's back in his old 3 gallon NPT now and seems to be quite content in there. His patch on his head doesn't seem to be growing much anymore but it's still obviously there, however not seemingly effecting him much. Still eat's like all the rest of them. The only ones that didn't eat where the ones with Dropsy symptoms and then Mattie two day's before she died (Sunday).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes! Finally got to Linda and she totally gave me permission to do whatever I need to do. So next week with Columbus day, all the lab classes are done for the week so I can bring in a fish whenever I like to do the Necropsy! She say's there are tools for whatever I need to do and if it ends up being too gross, I can just put it in the sharp disposable container and then just wipe everything else down with Alcohol and whatnot. She's awesome for sure! Showed me where all the stuff is so I don't even have to worry about finding my exact-o knife ^_^

So now comes to which fish I'm going to perform this on. I figure that I should just do it on Mystique since she's the biggest of the ones who are deteriorating now so that should be the easiest the work on. My internal confict is that none of them are so sick to the point of death yet so I kind of feel bad in just randomly selecting them to kill them. So should I wait until one of them is bad enough or just suck it up and do it? I assume the sooner I know the better.

So what if it's not Myco's, what else would it be? If it is anti-antibacterial Colunaris, is there anything else I can do since the KanaPlex obviously didn't work. They've been sitting in it for two weeks now since I haven't done a water change (yeah shame on me but the plants are thriving and ammonia tests zero). Well maybe it is since it has slowed down but there's been no proof of getting better either. So what, just add the entire rest of the contents of KanaPlex that I have? which isn't much, yikes you go through that really quickly!

I guess, I just have to wait for results then huh. Is there anything else I should be looking for in the fish other than the granulnoma's and possibly internal parasites for kicks?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Gah! I just wrote a long reply, then hit the wrong button -- and it all disappeared. :-( I can't recreate it all, but, basically.....

IMO, you don't need to rush to euthanize anyone. You aren't breeding/shipping/buying fish right now. If it's Myco, it's not like adding another medication will cure it. 

Have you tried an antiparasitical like metronidazole yet? Metronidazole works on a lot of parasites, and also treats some anaerobic bacteria. I would try a combination of Kanaplex + metronidazole.

Columnaris is opportunistic. So if their immune systems are overwhelmed from *anything,* the Columnaris can take hold. It's possible to treat it with another antibiotic (the furan meds would be my choice), but you have to weigh that against the effect on their livers and kidneys. Antibiotics are generally metabolized by the liver and excreted by the kidneys. So using them places stress on these organs.

But since they're dying anyway.... if you want, you can combine Kanaplex, metronidazole and one of the furan meds. (I've seen the combination listed on a few websites.) Best case, it'll cure or at least slow down whatever is affecting them. Worst case, it'll speed up their demise (since it doesn't look like they're really improving.)

I've also been trying to find out more about the incubation period of Myco. Have you seen anything about it? I've found info about incubation periods in people, but not fish. I'm trying to find info about the length of time from when a fish is infected, until it displays symptoms and ultimately dies.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I haven't read anything about the incubation period, mostly it's just saying 'if your fish have it, it's just a matter of time' and that's it >.< vague answers are the worst for sure!

Okay so Metronidazole and KanaPlex and see if that helps? I have to wait for my paycheck to get processed today and I should be able to buy some along with more KanaPlex since I'm practically out. And on that note, they made those bottles really stupidly since the stupid scoop doesn't reach the bottom which is the worst design in all of history! ugg, I can hear the scraping of thin plastic against thin plastic...hurts my ears!

Anywho, I did try and throw in the Lifeguard stuff I had bought and that was when I saw things slow down in the three fish who are currently showing signs of whatever it is that I have. or at least, that's what it seems like, KanaPlex is still in there technically, I haven't replaced the carbon in yet but tomorrow I can do a big water change to get rid of most of what I have in there and add the meds back in when they arrive. 

Cherry has been looking thinner and much more shy than usual. She was always shier than her sisters but she's always the last to come up for food now, I'm happy at least she's trying to eat but the bigger fish tend to get to food more than she does. I've been feeding frozen brine shrimp as of late in conjunction with NLS just so I know she's eating something since I can basically put it right in front of her face and guarantee she has something to eat. I've only been feeding them frozen shrimp every other day though and only for this week did I start it.

Mystique looks okay, little more stressed than normal and it looks like her fin deterioration spot has now started to get fin rot.....

Raven looks okay, not very stressed which is good; normally she's the queen of hiding since she's quite low on the totem pole of hierarchy. But her spots are there still, the last picture I had of her showed her good side so I'll see if I can get one with the other side to show the spots. They look like how Little Blue's spots started.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

FYI, Kanaplex is in limited supply right now. Several websites are listing it as backordered. It's still available, but you may need to look at a few sites to find someone who has it in stock.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, I found it on Petsupplies.com but then I remembered that I need to buy my school supplies still so I won't be able to get the meds for another few weeks. Currently I'm borrowing parts of someone's zinc plate for etching and well...it's hard to borrow it exactly since once you engrave it, it's yours lol. I was supposed to buy my own once I got my paycheck and we're starting a new plate this coming week so I kind of need to buy that first...stupid school hasn't accepted my tuition waiver yet so I can get my refund money :-(

In all, everyone looks okay right now. Cherry's mouth has gotten grey and looks like a part was bitten off actually. Mystique is starting to get the same grey patch that Rembrandt has, between her eye's. And Someone took off half of Aurora's tail while I was watching....one minute she was fine (she's the one who had her tail bitten in half last page) and then the next she comes back up and the bottom half of the split is missing. It's got to be those Ram's since none of my girls ever bit like this before! And the Ram's mouths are bigger so I'm suspecting they're doing all the biting >.< I can't exactly just throw the three of them in a different tank though seeing how I don't have any extra's to set up besides a 5.5.

Anyway, they still seem to be okay for now though, Cherry is just incredible skinny and tiny looking now though.

Just did a small water change to clean the plant gunk and poop off the bottom.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Hmmm. Well, I hope her tail grows back soon. I'm excited to see the sucess of your sorority  I tried, but failed.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

PetMania said:


> Hmmm. Well, I hope her tail grows back soon. I'm excited to see the sucess of your sorority  I tried, but failed.


Not quite sure how it's a success if all my fish are sick lol but thanks. Aurora is a fast healer and always has been. She's got a chunk taken out of her anal fin now though...sigh...these fish are going to drive me insane >.<


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I just had an interesting thought. Theoretically...if a fish with Myco's was exposed to the sun for a better part of the day for a month or so during cooler times so the sun does't heat up the tank, would that in theory get rid of Myco's or is that faulty?

I just put up my blinds today and the sun shone on Rembrandt's tank which sparked the idea since to fully get rid of it you'd put the tank out in the sun to dry, so would it have the same effect and just need a longer period? Something interesting to think about either way


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Not quite sure how it's a success if all my fish are sick lol but thanks. Aurora is a fast healer and always has been. She's got a chunk taken out of her anal fin now though...sigh...these fish are going to drive me insane >.<


Sorry. I meant how they get along without fatally injuring each other.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh okay lol, well in that case yes, it is a success. I've never had another girl kill another so that's good, just usually nipped fins here and there and sometimes a few scales missing but nothing ever major went down so yeah, that's nice


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I might try to do a sororirty again someday. How many did you start out with?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

The uv from the sun might help with the external problems, but it wouldn't do anything for the internal bacteria (which are really the ones that end up killing the fish) and isn't going to cure it. Neat theory, though. 

I've always wondered if there was a way to adapt human tb meds to aquarium use.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

PetMania said:


> I might try to do a sororirty again someday. How many did you start out with?


I started with seven, Mystique was from PetCo and just a starter girl and then I bought six girls from my LFS that most likely came from the same breeder.



MattsBettas said:


> The uv from the sun might help with the external problems, but it wouldn't do anything for the internal bacteria (which are really the ones that end up killing the fish) and isn't going to cure it. Neat theory, though.
> 
> I've always wondered if there was a way to adapt human tb meds to aquarium use.


Oh okay, that does make sense. Eh, either way I'm keeping the blinds open for him just to see what will help. He doesn't get sun all day, just from roughly noon till five/six at night but it's weak at this time of year anyway so it's not heating the tank or producing much algae yet either.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

So seven then. I might try and go for a bigger tank, bigger numbers so there is less aggression. What do you recommend for time-outs?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I just use plastic cups from Petsmart but you can use anything that's see through or mostly see through. Anywhere from two day's up to two weeks is normal, depends on how aggressive the girl is being.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> I just use plastic cups from Petsmart but you can use anything that's see through or mostly see through. Anywhere from two day's up to two weeks is normal, depends on how aggressive the girl is being.


 Okay, thanks.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So....things I've learned while trying to Euthanize Mystique and Perform the Necropsy:

1) Fish who don't want to die apparently live through icy water and being in the freezer for 15 minutes.....Mystique was still alive when I brought her to school and put her on the napkin...she flipped over and started to breathe and it scared the crap out of me!
1.5) Swift blow to the table while in the bag was the way to go, although it kind of killed me inside :-(
2) Bring your own scalpel or x-acto knife because the university hides theirs very well apparently. 
2.5) However I did find very sharp prodding tools to use.
3) Thank God for gloves.....
4) I still ate breakfast afterwards and looked at pictures of fish necropsies to make sure I was seeing things properly.

And lastly, there seems to be no sign of granuloma's! I observed with and without the microscope and found no traces, at least in the parts that I could see. Then again, this was done without the knife so I wasn't able to see everything, so I think I'll have to do another proper one on a different fish later on. At least now I know where the prodding tools are but I'll need to find a knife of sorts and I wasn't going to use my bosses box knife, no matter how much I dislike him lol, that's just cruel.

She seemed to be a healthy fish on the inside, comparing pictures at least that's what it seemed. I wanted to take pictures of her but I couldn't stomach it that well so I didn't.


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Well the fact that you didn't find anything more malicious internally is good! REALLY good! LOL at Mystique still being alive on the "cutting board"...although it's also kind of sad


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

(Posting the same reply here as I did on another forum...)

That's why I suggest clove oil. Been frozen and not killed certainly wouldn't have been pleasant. 

It's great that you didn't see granulomas... That would make me lean more towards resistant columnaris tentatively, but I would still use every precautionary measure and treat it as if it was myco... If it works for myco (sterilization-wise) it will work for everything else, and, in case it still is mycos (which we will have a better idea of once you do another necropsy), you are still safe.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, I agree about the sanitation. I don't want to risk my boy's although they would have already been exposed had it been Myco's/is Myco's since I wasn't disinfecting before but I feel like they'd be showing signs. Especially the babies since they're more in a constant state of stress being housed in a split tank although it's not nearly as stressful as the girls, but I digress.

Although Rembrandt's grey patch is still weird though, would Columnaris make that kind of patch as well? I figured it was more like the fluffy stuff rather than a slimy/fungus-y looking grey patch on his face. :-/

I have mixed feelings about the clove oil but I honestly have mixed feelings about all euthanasia methods, but then again, who doesn't.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

One of my boys has had a patch like Rembrandt's (same spot and colour) and has had it for as long as I can remember... I seriously doubt it's myco though since he came from a private breeder who has never had it and he's had the spot for longer then the incubation period. Just a thought, maybe Rembrandt isn't even affected. 

No method of euthanasia is perfect, but clove oil is definitely better then being frozen and then finally killed via blunt force trauma, to be rather direct...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Interesting, I wonder what it is then. Mattie was the only other who had the spot like him and it was different than her other wounds on her body when she was still alive, so it would make sense that it's not the same disease and rather just a secondary infection of sorts. I feel like it's some sort of fungus but he's been on both KanaPlex and Furan-2 which did nothing, of course, it could be resistant to Furan-2 since that's a fairly old drug by now, correct?

Do we have a rough time for the incubation period of Myco's? I know LittleBlueFishlet's was interesting in knowing that.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I've always gone by two weeks to up to six months... I believe I saw BasementBettas report that, and while it is a large range and it's pretty unlikely to actually take six months when dealing with mycos it's _always_ better safe then sorry.

You'll have to ask LittleBlueFishlets about how old furan-2 is but bacterial resistance is a very real issue and bacteria doesn't necessarily take that long to become resistant... I'm reading a book on this kinda stuff and there was one page that showed how quickly human bacteria had become resistant to common antibiotics and it was quite shocking... If I remember right the majority took less then five years.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Scary info about the bacteria. I mean, I know it adapts relatively quickly and all but I also know KanaPlex hasn't been out _that_ long and the fact that the disease barely responded to the medication kind of worries me.


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Augrim, what dose Kanaplex did you use? I've read somewhere that when treating columnaris, you should hit it with a large dose (more than what the directions recommend)...but as to what dose I have no idea. I dosed regular Kanaplex then mixxed in Furan-2 about a week later when it finally came in the mail. If I had both meds on hand and dosed them both together the first time, I feel I would have had better results. Just now there are all sorts of secondary infections going on and probably also negative affects from being on antibiotics for weeks...it's frustrating >_<


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Here's what I just found:



> KANAMYCIN SULFATE (Kanaplex );
> ABOUT/ USE: An easily absorbed antibiotic, it is used to treat many sensitive gram–negative and some gram–positive bacteria. Kanamycin is a water-soluble aminoglycoside antibiotic that is derived from the bacterium Streptomyces kanamyceticus and has a very low adsorption rate in the intestine of animals including fish. Aminoglycosides work by binding to the bacterial 30S ribosomal subunit, causing misreading of t-RNA, leaving the bacterium unable to synthesize proteins vital to its growth. Aminoglycosides such as Kanamycin are especially useful in infections involving aerobic gram-negative bacteria such as Columnaris.
> 
> Kanamycin works especially well in salt water aquariums. Kanamycin works well combined with (& compliments) Nitrofurazone for flexibacter (Columnaris) (Symptoms: Fuzzy, thin, white coating on the body and fins. Looks like a fungus). Also useful for Pseudomonas-Open red sores or ulcerations, fin and tail damage, fins and tail are eaten away, in severe cases, down to the body. Kanamycin is very effective in high pH applications, especially Vibrio, making it useful for brackish and marine treatments. Kanamycin is easily absorbed skin absorbed , making it an excellent choice for systemic infections.
> ...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh and it's *lil not augrim, augrim doesn't mean anything lol. Naugrim is dwarf in elvish and so I was little dwarf which turned to lil'dwarf and then lil'naugrim 

And I was using the regular dose plus Lifeguard because I had it. But at this point, I just want to give up on it all and start over. Obviously, yes I would like to know what it is that is killing them so I can make proper measures to ensure my other fish don't get sick but I just don't even want to bother much more with that tank anymore :-/ But thank you for the information, I'll keep it logged away for future reference


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I thought that the *naugrim sounded familiar..............


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

^_^


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Sounds very German-like (or Norwegian). 

Anyways, is this disease 100% curable, or more of a 50/50 chance? Just want to know in case I ever run into that. Also, what is the real average lifespan for a betta? One that lives in a well planted, 10gal tank with close to perfect water parameters. Thanks!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Betta's generally live 2-3 years but some can live right up to 6-8 years actually.

And this columnaris is most likely curable but it's going to take a lot of work and lots of KanaPlex/other medications like the metron or furan-2. I don't have the time or the resources during this school year to do this. I know it should have been thought through and I know I shouldn't have had so many tank/fish that I knew I wasn't going to able to fully take care of and I feel bad. :-/ I know it's mostly my fault these girls are dying but I just can't deal with it all and I'm sure that sounds super insensitive too :-(


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Read the new posts quickly, but my eye caught a few things:

1) Mycobacteria is a common bacteria found in soil, water, etc. For the most part, a healthy fish's immune system can fight off infection. Like many other opportunistic infections: if something happens, such as an increase in bacterial numbers in the environment, or there's a stress on the fish, the bacteria can gain a foothold.

2) If Myco is present in your tank, all of your fish have been exposed. The best way to deal with it at this point would be to keep quality water parameters, reduce stress on the fish, and do your best to keep them healthy. 

3) That said, too "clean" a tank can actually increase the concentration of Myco! By reducing the numbers of other bacteria, the Myco (which is very hardy) no longer has to deal with competition for nutrients, etc.

4) Incubation - Several studies say that Mycobacterium marinum incubation in humans can be many months before a skin infection occurs. (I saw a few mentions of nine months.) However, so far, I haven't found anything referencing fish.

5) Nitrofurazone (one of the active ingredients in Furan 2) has been used as a topical ointment for veterinary use in the U.S. since at least 1979. (According to the FDA Animal Products database: Source here)

6) I *really* worry about the overuse of Kanaplex (kanamycin). It's being recommended too frequently, IMO. It's the only antibiotic that I know of that treats internal bacterial infections, so I usually try to only recommend it for internal issues. But I guess it will continue to be recommended by people for external infections, since it is effective (currently). As Matt pointed out, bacterial resistance can occur VERY quickly. Bacteria multiply fast, so it doesn't take long to turn over many generations of it.

7) Whoops. Gotta go. The dog needs to go out.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Betta's generally live 2-3 years but some can live right up to 6-8 years actually.
> 
> And this columnaris is most likely curable but it's going to take a lot of work and lots of KanaPlex/other medications like the metron or furan-2. I don't have the time or the resources during this school year to do this. I know it should have been thought through and I know I shouldn't have had so many tank/fish that I knew I wasn't going to able to fully take care of and I feel bad. :-/ I know it's mostly my fault these girls are dying but I just can't deal with it all and I'm sure that sounds super insensitive too :-(


 Okay. That's longer than a hamster..........just realized that. 

I'm sorry


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks LittleBlue. Yeah I was trying to find a date for the Furan and saw something about 1999 so I know it's been in use a long time but didn't realize just how long, wow 79!

Do we know exactly when KanaPlex came out as well? I feel like it's only been a few year's now? I especially don't want to keep using it if it's just going to make whatever I have more resistant to it. I'd rather just completely take down the tank, get rid of my equipment and start fresh so there's no risk of helping the disease become immune to kanaplex as well if that makes sense. I mean, I don't know exactly how much that can actually effect the chance of becoming immune in the big picture but I don't feel like helping it.

I'd rather save it for something I know I can cure without using an entire bottle of KanaPlex if that makes any sense. Why do I feel like I'm not making any sense today >.< sorry, I'm super distracted right now, soo much on my mind....sigh.

Oh, any word about the driftwood? Should I bake it and risk it or just turn it into some firewood? Although I feel like if I burnt it, it would become sort of airborne which probably isn't a good thing either. Should I just dig a deep hold not next to any river/water/ocean/lake/pond and bury it? lol I'm at a loss.


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