# Sticky  Important tips to a successful sorority



## LittleBettaFish

I've seen a lot of threads on sororities asking pretty basic questions and although I know that there is a thread already dedicated to this, it seems kind of disorganised and the OP doesn't cover as many areas as I think it needs to.

I had this floating around on an unfinished site of mine so thought it might be helpful to those thinking of starting up a sorority tank.

Feel free to add any of your own experiences to this post. I think I covered most of the major areas where people run into trouble but if you think something is important post it up. 



*Introduction to Betta Sororities*​Your first question might be, ‘What exactly is a betta sorority?’ In short, a ‘sorority’is a group of female Betta splendens housed together in the same tank. 

A sorority is usually one of two things: a brilliant success, or a spectacular failure. There is more to a successful sorority than just putting a group of females in a tank together and expecting them to get along. 

Below, I have outlined a list of steps that should hopefully help you on your way and tilt the odds of success in your favour.


*Any sorority tank should be a minimum of 20 gallons​*Female bettas can be as aggressive and unpredictable as males. Domesticated splendens have been selectively bred for generations, and were never really intended to live peacefully with others of their species. 

Therefore, it is important to provide each female with enough space to get away from an aggressor, and to lessen the event of territorial flare-ups. 

I usually ensure each of my females has at least 2 gallon of space per fish. However, you may want to increase this minimum if you have particularly big or hostile females. Unless your females are very young and it is only a temporary solution, I would never recommend a sorority tank be anything less than 20 gallons. 

Finally, an ideal sorority tank is one that is wider rather than taller. You will often find the more dominant females will spend most of their time near the surface and may bully the others when they come up to breathe or feed. Therefore, it is best to give your females enough room to spread out. 


*You should provide as much cover as possible*​By blocking the line of sight from one end of the tank to the other, you can drastically lessen aggression and prevent chases from happening. 

In a sparsely planted tank, there is nothing to prevent one female from chasing another around for as long as she wants. As you can imagine, this is obviously stressful for the fish being chased, and usually once the fish is caught, there is nowhere for her to escape from an attack. 

Ideally I like to see most of the tank covered with either artificial or live plants. You want plants that provide cover at all levels of the tank. It is no use having lots of very short plants at the bottom, when your females are chasing and fighting up top! 

I found my females rarely if ever went into hides such as terracotta caves or PVC pipe tunnels. Other people may have different experiences, but I have found the most favoured hiding places were in amongst the plants, particularly up near the surface. 


*You need a minimum of four-five females*​A successful sorority is often one that is over rather than understocked. Indeed, you will find it very difficult to maintain long-term a sorority that has only 2-3 individuals. Generally the most dominant individual(s) will attack the weakest until she is either dead or extremely stressed. 

To avoid this from happening, you want to have enough females that any aggression is dispersed rather than targeted at the weakest female. Some people are much more conservative with the stocking of their sororities, but I feel that the more females you have, the less prolonged aggression you will see. 

If you cannot purchase or house any more than 2-3 females, I would advise against a sorority. It is only be a matter of time before you see the results of poor stocking, in the form of disease, injury and even death. An alternative solution in these instances is to either divide up a single tank, or house each female separately from the other. 


*It is best to choose the youngest females possible​*Older, mature females that have lived alone are more inclined to react with extreme aggression when placed in a sorority environment. While most tend to adapt and become part of the community after an initial introduction period, some will continue to act aggressively and will need to be at removed. 

Younger females (siblings from the same spawn are often the best candidates for sororities particularly if they have yet to be separated) are usually much less territorial and aggressive. There is usually much less serious fighting between individuals while sorting out a hierarchy, and they tend to be much more flexible with the introduction of new tankmates. 

However, one danger in choosing young females is that you will end up with a male plakat instead. This has happened to me once or twice, and for those without separate accommodations, can be quite the headache. 

Females tend to have a rounder body shape than males, and in light coloured females, you should also be able to make out the ovaries as a small yellowish triangle behind the intestines. Male plakats will often have longer ventrals, a pronounced beard, possibly a fuller caudal, and generally a sharper angle to their anal fin. While they may not have a visible eggspot, it is not uncommon for younger males to have an ovipositor as well . Therefore, the presence of an eggspot alone is often not a good determinant of gender. 
The best advice I can give, is that if in doubt, don’t purchase. 


*Ensure that your water parameters are nothing short of perfect​*Living in even the most peaceful sorority environment is often quite stressful for a female betta. She must not only compete for food and for territory, but also must deal with the close proximity of equally territorial and aggressive fish. 

Stress in fish is one of the number one causes for outbreaks of disease. While poor water quality may not kill your females outright, it can compromise their immune system, leaving them vulnerable to diseases a healthy fish may otherwise have managed to fight off. 

In poor water conditions, when one female becomes sick it is usually quickly spread to every other female in the tank as well. This is why it is important to monitor your water parameters and ensure that they are always within an appropriate range. Any readings less than ideal demand an immediate water change and a look at the way the tank is being maintained. 


*Aggression in sororities​*The question I often hear from most of those new to sororities is "What is too much aggression and when should I intervene?"

You have to remember when dealing with bettas, that aggression is a perfectly natural behaviour. However, this does not mean that your sorority tank should look like a WWF wrestling match.

It is common for there to be some fighting when you first introduce your females. This could be anything from posturing, body slapping, flaring, chasing and biting. This usually settles down within a couple of days although it is perfectly normal to see occasional flare-ups. 

For me, the time to intervene is when there is more than a couple of minutes of sustained fighting between two females in which obvious damage is being done. I separate out whoever looks to be the aggressor, and put them into a breeders' net that sits in my sorority tank. I find this is often the best method of introducing particularly aggressive females as by the end of the week, they are generally accustomed to the other females being nearby and less inclined to over react when reintroduced. 

I also intervene if it is obvious one female is being continually bullied by the others. If a female is starting to lose a lot of condition, or has severe fin and scale damage it is time to pull her from the sorority. It can be difficult to understand why certain females are targeted by the others. Just because a female is small or less aggressive does not mean she will be the one bullied. Therefore, it is important with a sorority tank that you find the time each day to check on your females and see that everyone is in good physical shape. I speak from experience when I say it does not take long for things to suddenly fall apart.

Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes or issues. I went through it in Word but may have missed some of the less obvious grammatical errors.


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## LebronTheBetta

Great thread, this IMO deserves to be a sticky. 
This info will surely help to those who are new to sororities and interested. Just to add, can't you buff up the weaker ones with high protein foods so they're stronger? Just a thought..


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## lillyandquigly

great thread!


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## LittleBettaFish

I had a female who was one of the biggest in my sorority. She was a healthy, mature female who the others decided one day that they all disliked. In the end I had to remove her as she had started dropping condition because she was constantly chased away from food, and was getting beaten up by the more dominant females. 

She was even attacked by females much younger and smaller than her, even though there was nothing physically wrong with her and she wasn't a particularly submissive fish. It was just like one day a switch went off, and the others decided that she needed to be removed.

I think if it is just a size or strength issue, conditioning your female up before introducing her into the sorority might help. But if it is some other issue that only a fellow betta can determine, then I feel the other females are still going to harass her regardless.


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## DragonFish

Ahh, I love you for posting this! This is amazing, absolutely fantastic information!
I agree, this should totally be stickyed. I've bookmarked it though into my special folder so I can pull it up and link people back to it.


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## lillyandquigly

Yes this should be stickied!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## LittleBettaFish

Thanks guys. It means a lot to hear that. 

I know it isn't a really in-depth look into sororities (I could have typed up a whole page alone on water quality and cycling), but is designed more as a basic guide to at least point people in the right direction. 

That way the idea is there and they can hopefully do their own research about the individual elements either on this forum or another.


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## randomgirl22

I have a ten gallon tank that I am cycling now to add a sorority to. I was only going to add 6 females so I could get lots of live and silk plants. A breeding net or breeding something was mentioned what type do you use?


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## LittleBettaFish

I use a brand called AquaOne, which sell a 'large' 4L net. Otherwise I use these cheap plastic breeder boxes I found online, which make it a lot easier to see the fish inside. 

http://www.aquariumsupermarket.com.au/265-net-breeder-separation-box-small-aqua-one.html
(this is what I use just so you can get an idea of what I mean)

I don't think it matters what brand. As long as it all fits together properly and the suction caps work, it should be fine.


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## Bombalurina

You can also get breeder boxes that float in the tank.


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## Fishy Mom

I'm glad you mentioned the aggression & when it's time to intervene. The best advice is to not stress out & let the fish establish a pecking order as long as none of the girls gets severely injured. A flaring contest or a tail slap here & there is part of the process. I personally don't think (just from my experience) there's an ideal number of girls, size, or color that should be in a tank, but there is ideal personalities for a sorority.


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## Otterfun

Vote for it to be a sticky too.
Thanks, you made it simple and stress free for me reading this as a female, hahaha, seriously, I am looking forward to starting my first sorority and this helps in addition to the sticky on this topic.


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## Shadyr

Just wanted to share a so far successful strategy I've had to introduce my new girls to the sorority tank. After you have made sure the new girl is healthy through a time in quarantine, put her back in the cup she came in and float that in the tank. Do the normal water change routine to get her used to the water temperature and chemistry. (this would consist of me periodically tipping some water out and then refilling with tank water - after a few rounds she'll be in mostly tank water) Float like this, with *frequent* water changes into the cup to keep it fresh, for two days. Feed and make sure to clean out leftover food/poops regularly (turkey basters have a new life as tank supplies!). During that time, your existing girls can see their new addition and she can see her soon to be home and tankmates. 

I found that if there was going to be showing off/intimidation attempts, getting it out of the way while no one can touch the new girl really helped. usually after the first day, the girls in the tank would have had their time of puffery and gotten back to normal business. I normally have half the sorority swimming into the new girls' cup to investigate IT while the new girl wanders out to explore the tank when it's release time.


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## LittleBettaFish

That's essentially what I do, but I leave them longer and use a breeding net/box. I've found it's the best method of introducing mature or slightly more aggressive females into the sorority. By the time I release her, the other females are such a non-event that there's rarely any fighting. 

I think a lot of people panic and start pulling females when one comes up with tattered fins or missing scales. As long as one fish isn't being attacked by the others or it isn't prolonged aggression between two females, then just let them be. If your water quality is good and you are feeding a high-quality diet, any fin damage should grow back quickly. 

I only intervene if two females are really going at it to the exclusion of any others, and serious damage is being done in a very small space of time. 

I tend to be more blase with aggression and bettas. It's very rare that that you aren't going to see some physical damage at some point, when housing bettas together. It's just part of their nature and something you have to accept.


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## Shadyr

Hadn't thought of that. Once the water acclimitization is complete, I *do* have my breeder/timeout box. Little roomier than the cup and has slits for actual water circulation! But at 11 girls in the tank, I think I'm done for now...unless I find a green or EE girl in the fishstore. Highly unlikely tho.


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## AyalaCookiejar

I should be getting my girls and my live plants for my ten gallon tank this week. I will have 6 girls in total, and I have 6 separate one gallon QT tanks that will all fit in the ten gallon for warmth. I've been setting this tank up since the beginning of January... I really don't want to do anything wrong. I find this thread a little reassuring just because I already know they will probably fight a little, but it will still probably freak me out anyways, lol.

How does everyone feed their girls? Is there any way besides cupping them that I can make sure they are getting relatively equal amounts of food? I don't want to overfeed them but I don't want to underfeed them, either.


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## Fishy Mom

AyalaCookiejar said:


> I should be getting my girls and my live plants for my ten gallon tank this week. I will have 6 girls in total, and I have 6 separate one gallon QT tanks that will all fit in the ten gallon for warmth. I've been setting this tank up since the beginning of January... I really don't want to do anything wrong. I find this thread a little reassuring just because I already know they will probably fight a little, but it will still probably freak me out anyways, lol.
> 
> How does everyone feed their girls? Is there any way besides cupping them that I can make sure they are getting relatively equal amounts of food? I don't want to overfeed them but I don't want to underfeed them, either.


I spread the food around the top so they all get some & then I push some down for my one girl who refuses to come to the top for food. She scrounges on the bottom all day long like it's her only mission in life is to find food in the sand, lol. 

Don't stress too much. Once you get to know your girls you'll be fine. Spend time with them & interact as much as you can because it's a distraction from being territorial. I just released two new girls without any problems. There was a whole lotta of chasing, but no nipped fins & things are already settling down. I just spent the last half hour playing with a few of them & teaching them to swim through a hoop. So cute!


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## AyalaCookiejar

Thank you! I also have another question...

I had a member tell me that he found introducing them worked best 15 minutes before lights out, but I was concerned that they would fight when I turned the lights out and I can't observe them? Or is it too dark for them to see each other at all?


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## LittleBettaFish

Honestly, I think a lot of people over think sororities. I just used to put my females all in and if anyone fought too much they got separated out into a breeding net.

I have had at least 50 odd females and only around five or so could not cope in a sorority environment. 

When introducing a new female to an existing sorority, I would just feed everyone else up the front and release the newcomer up at the back of the tank. I never bothered with rearranging everything or letting fish out one at a time.


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## Fishy Mom

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Thank you! I also have another question...
> 
> I had a member tell me that he found introducing them worked best 15 minutes before lights out, but I was concerned that they would fight when I turned the lights out and I can't observe them? Or is it too dark for them to see each other at all?


I don't really know because I've never done that. I think you'll be fine whatever you choose to do. You have hospital tanks, a plan, & a cycled tank so your very prepared.


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## Shadyr

I usually release mine shortly before the lights go on. That way then can explore a bit in the moonlights, but I can keep a better eye on it for the next few hours.

As for feeding time, I generally drop the food all around them - they take care of it fast. Even with 11, I can make sure everyone gets at least a few pellets. My one girl who doesn't like the surface usually joins the tetras and eats the sinking mini pellets. She's started coming up with the other girls, so there's hope that she knows she's a betta and not a tetra!


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## Otterfun

My Petco rescue Curious Grace was somehow trained by someone to swim into the tub that she was housed in. she associates cup=food. So she's actually happy to swim in there.

I guess cupping and feeding will help and I think I might train my other girls to do that when they come it. bettas are smart fish as i have noticed.


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## Fishy Mom

LittleBettaFish said:


> Honestly, I think a lot of people over think sororities. I just used to put my females all in and if anyone fought too much they got separated out into a breeding net.
> 
> I have had at least 50 odd females and only around five or so could not cope in a sorority environment.
> 
> When introducing a new female to an existing sorority, I would just feed everyone else up the front and release the newcomer up at the back of the tank. I never bothered with rearranging everything or letting fish out one at a time.


I agree with over thinking it. The girls sort of just figure it out on their own without too much interference.


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## Shadyr

With a smaller group, you can regulate exactly how much everyone is eating. When I had 5, I could count them each out pellets. With 11 hungry girls, there is way too much crowding and excited fish flailing at feeding time for me to have any hope of putting a pellet in front of a girl and expecting her to get to it first.

It IS fun to take a pinch of the sinking pellets, hold it underwater, and have your fingers nipped, swum through, and jumped at by a school of bettas. They do learn fast.


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## AyalaCookiejar

Lol, to be honest, I'm still too scared to stick my hands in the tank because my bettas follow them around and I don't want to get bit. Most of that is because my blind fish, who I feed with a skewer, latched on to it once and it scared me so bad that I pulled it out of the water with him still attached. So his jaw is strong enough to hold on to something while he's just hanging off of it? My ten pound dog can't even do that when we play tug-o-war, lol.

I guess my question was really, do they fight when the lights go out? I'm not to concerned about introducing them according to what time lights out is, because chances are, I'll introduce them when I have the time, whenever that will be...


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## Otterfun

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Lol, to be honest, I'm still too scared to stick my hands in the tank because my bettas follow them around and I don't want to get bit. Most of that is because my blind fish, who I feed with a skewer, latched on to it once and it scared me so bad that I pulled it out of the water with him still attached. So his jaw is strong enough to hold on to something while he's just hanging off of it? My ten pound dog can't even do that when we play tug-o-war, lol.
> ..


hahahaha, this is very vivd description, i like your betta :-D


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## LittleBettaFish

I have wild bettas juveniles that grow around 10cm, and my God they scare the daylights out of you when they latch onto your hand. It actually almost hurts because their mouths are so big. 

Honestly AyalaCookiejar, I wouldn't worry about the fighting too much. Not sure if you have the actual females already, but if you are concerned about possible fighting, you can always purchase sibling or very young females, and this should be an easier transition. 

For a few days it may look ugly, and you may need to separate one or two troublemakers out. However, it's not like you are going to put them all in and they are going to start murdering each other. Generally most of the time they are fairly stunned when first introduced to the tank, and it's only once they have settled in that fights tend to break out. 

If your tank is very heavily planted and there is lots of cover, they _should_ be fine. Of course there is never any 100% guarantees with these fish, but I used to chuck random females into existing and newly started sororities all the time and never had any fatalities or serious harm done.


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## Fishy Mom

LittleBettaFish said:


> I have wild bettas juveniles that grow around 10cm, and my God they scare the daylights out of you when they latch onto your hand. It actually almost hurts because their mouths are so big.
> 
> Honestly AyalaCookiejar, I wouldn't worry about the fighting too much. Not sure if you have the actual females already, but if you are concerned about possible fighting, you can always purchase sibling or very young females, and this should be an easier transition.
> 
> For a few days it may look ugly, and you may need to separate one or two troublemakers out. However, it's not like you are going to put them all in and they are going to start murdering each other. Generally most of the time they are fairly stunned when first introduced to the tank, and it's only once they have settled in that fights tend to break out.
> 
> If your tank is very heavily planted and there is lots of cover, they _should_ be fine. Of course there is never any 100% guarantees with these fish, but I used to chuck random females into existing and newly started sororities all the time and never had any fatalities or serious harm done.


LBF, I think you're the one who posted the wild betta info on one of your threads for me. I never got to say thank you. I did read it, but because I was at work I didn't have time to sign in & say thanks. It peaked my interest in them for sure, but that a future project for after I move to the country in a couple of years.


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## SunshineSulie

Super helpful! I have a single female now, and honestly, I think they are much more appealing than males! I can't wait to get out of the dorms in college and have room for a sorority tank. Thanks so much for the info, I will refer back to it when I move out!! 

By the way, don't jump down my throat for this, but what exactly is cycling?


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## Bombalurina

Cycling is the process of causing beneficial bacteria to grow in your filter, which convert ammonia into nitrates.  There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the gist of it. It basically is what makes the filter effective, and if you have a filter, a 5+ gallon tank and a fish, it will pretty much happen by itself. However, it can be stressful for the fish, as ammonia, nitrites and nitrates spike during the cycle, so if you can do it fishlessly, it is better to do so.


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## SunshineSulie

Thanks. I just upgraded my girl from a 1/2 gallon (was doing 1/4 water changes 1 time a week n a full change in the end) and into a bigger 2.5 gallon. I plan on doing less water changes, hope this works out better. She almost seems overwhelmed by all the space, poor thing. This is my first betta, and even though I have done a lot of research, I am nervous for her. So far, 3 months have gone by well. 

I check out your blog, too! I really love the natural colors and such for the betta you have,when I leave college, I may have to contact someone to get the natural sorts of betta.


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## LittleBettaFish

Good to hear you upgraded her. Female bettas tend to be quite active and curious things so I always do advocate for the biggest tank possible for them. 

If the new tank is bare, it may be making her nervous. Bettas generally like to have a couple of areas of cover that they can retreat to if they are startled or feeling overwhelmed. Otherwise she may just be taking a little longer to get settled. 

Thanks for the comments on my blog. I am a big wild betta enthusiast so am always trying to get them out there.


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## Hyper27

This is quite a helpful thread! I am going to start a sorority very soon in a 29 gallon tank that I have along with a 10 gallon quarantine, both fully filtered and heated. I will get my bettas at my local petsmart because that is the easiest way for me. I want to start off with 6 and at some point end up at 10-12 but what should I do if I only see 3 individuals I like? (I definitely want red, blue, and white/cambodian that I always see there) Wont that be a bad number? Additionally, I want to add live plants, and I want to make sure they don't contain diseases, etc. What are some easy live plants to take care of and how do you make sure they aren't contaminated? 
Thanks,
Hyper27


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## LittleBettaFish

I would be leery of adding only three females even in a large tank. I had a 45 gallon and I once put in two females that had lived together previously in a sorority. 

Within five minutes they had hunted each other out and they fought (and inflicted a fair amount of damage) until I removed one of them to a breeders' net. 

Even with a lot of space, if a betta is feeling combative, they will still seek each other out and fight. 

Some people can have a sorority of three females and never run into any issues, but they are the exception more so than the rule. 

If you only see three females you like, I would keep them in quarantine or separated until you find at least three or more females. IMO three females is not a sorority but a disaster waiting to happen. 

Easy to care for plants include java fern, anubias, vallisneria (will give you some height), water sprite, wisteria, anacharis, bolbitis and crypts. 

Personally, I prefer to use fast growing plants such as water sprite and wisteria in sororities, as they fill in quickly and provide a lot of cover at all levels of the tank. However, they do require at least low-medium lighting to grow, and I am not sure just how easy you wanted to go. 

To make sure plants are safe, you can either do a dip with them using diluted bleach or potassium permanganate (not sure on the ratios for these so you will have to google) or just keep them quarantined for a couple of weeks prior to adding them into your sorority.


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## AyalaCookiejar

I got my four new females on Wednesday from Chard56 and put them and the two females I already had in six QT tanks floating in my ten gallon for warmth so they can all see each other. My two that I already have have been in QT for over two months because I could not do just two in a sorority, obviously, but they've been next to each other so they could see each other. Those two seem really aggressive to the new girls, flaring at them a lot. They did that to each other but calmed down a bit. They sometimes try to "get at" each other through the glass (all 6 of them do) but those two were flaring. A couple of the new girls seemed like they were trying to attack ME through the front of the glass.

Am I just overreacting or could this be a bad sign? I'm planning on releasing all of them on April 1st.


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## Bombalurina

Since you said they calmed down after flaring at each other, they may well calm down after flaring at the others, too. My girls had a fair amount of flaring at each other in the bags, and then again when they were released, but it's been a week now and everyone is settled.


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## AyalaCookiejar

Thanks... They will be next to each other and able to see each other for about two weeks before I release them so hopefully that will be long enough for them to get used to the new girls' presence.

Also, what bags should I use to put them in when I get ready to release them? I don't know where people get shipping bags and all I have are ziplock bags but I'm not sure how well those would work... I'd rather use bags than cups because they are easier to clip to the sides of the tank and cups take up a lot of room...


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## Shadyr

I know the cups take up a fair amount of room, but maybe lower the water in the tank a bit so they can ride under the hood? I like the cups because they (if they are the cups that bettas typically are purchased in) have lids with holes for air flow already in them. I'd be worried about putting the girls in sealed bags!


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## Fishy Mom

Ayala, how are you're girls doing? Did you use bags or the cups?


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## AyalaCookiejar

I'd rather use bags but I'm not going to seal them, I'll just leave them open and clip them to the sides so they don't tip over.

One reason I would rather use bags is because their QT tanks have small openings and cups would be hard to fit in there to scoop them out. I just don't know if ziplock bags would work well because of the shape. I don't know what else to use.

I don't have school or work Monday so that's when I'm releasing them. It will be 1 week and 5 days in QT. I know that's not very long but Monday is the only full day off for like longer than a month. May 20 will be my next free day, lol. Plus when I bag them before releasing them, I'll need some room to rearrange decor in the tank so cups would likely get in my way x_x


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## Fishy Mom

AyalaCookiejar said:


> I'd rather use bags but I'm not going to seal them, I'll just leave them open and clip them to the sides so they don't tip over.
> 
> One reason I would rather use bags is because their QT tanks have small openings and cups would be hard to fit in there to scoop them out. I just don't know if ziplock bags would work well because of the shape. I don't know what else to use.
> 
> I don't have school or work Monday so that's when I'm releasing them. It will be 1 week and 5 days in QT. I know that's not very long but Monday is the only full day off for like longer than a month. May 20 will be my next free day, lol. Plus when I bag them before releasing them, I'll need some room to rearrange decor in the tank so cups would likely get in my way x_x


Yay! Sounds like a fun day off of work. Let me know how the girls are getting along. Also, let me know how the bags work out and what kind you end up using. I've never tried that and want to see how it works out.


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## Otterfun

Hi,

I introduced my Petco rescue Curious Grace (female CT) and Wee (2 month old baby) to my tank. They got along fine. Mostly because I put Wee in a cup inside CG's tank for an hour and noticed that she was not really interested at Wee. Then after acclimation, I released them. As soon as they are in the tank, Wee tried to follow CG around like a kid. But somehow, without any chasing or fin nipping, Wee knew her place and let CG roam the tank without getting in her way. 

The tall hygrophilia and the bunch of floating anacharis helped blocked the line of sight and CG was interested in checking out the baby RCS and was apprehensive of the Amano shrimps that are bigger than her. Also the stone decor, shorter growing plants and marimo moss driftwood and moss ball serve as low level blocks, too.

Wee stayed in one corner and CG in another corner, it's like an invisible wall.

So far so good...

CG









Wee









My tank in mid-Jan when Fred was still around, most of the stems have grown and replanted, imagine more taller stems.


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## bannlow2471

I have a question that may be silly, but ... I'm going to ask it anyway. 

Which is ... since there is some level of stress to the fish that is involved in a sorority tank, is it better just not to do it at all? The reason I ask is that I have a new baby Betta - still not sure of gender or tail type, but if it turns out to be a female, I have thought about getting a fifteen or twenty gallon tank and doing a sorority, only because since my initiation into Bettas, I've just fallen in love with them and the idea that I could get five or six of them out of those little cups and into a good home is very difficult for me to resist. I'm still very new to Betta keeping, but I'm willing to learn, and this forum is such a great resource. On the other hand, if this is a stressful living situation for them, I wonder whether it would be better to get that same fifteen or twenty gallon tank, put in two dividers, and then I could have three Bettas in there (the baby plus two more). I wouldn't be able to liberate as many from their little cups, but would the ones I did choose be happier and less stressed than if I went with the sorority idea? Thoughts?


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## Shadyr

I can only go based on what I've read and my own tank. I got the tank for Christmas and it is now home to 11 female bettas (and friends). 

I have one girl who stripes up when she sees me watching (but if I glance over at the tank after having not been near it in a while, she's fine) and one girl who stripes up at feeding time. I saw a bit of chasing/nipping early on, which I dealt with by giving the offender (Hi Christmas) a timeout in the floating breeder box for a while. Which caused her to stripe up for the duration of her timeout. I had one girl who was just too young at the start and spent a couple of months in a small tank before being re-added (she's the one who stripes up when watched). I had one with food adjustment issues who had to be removed for a couple of bouts of SBD (but is now fine and hasn't shown any floaty tendencies for a couple of months). It takes some special attention to get going.

At this point, they don't seem aggressive to each other, they all crowd around and nip *ME* at feeding time. One of them has decided she's trying the tetra life and hangs out with the tetras.

This is certainly one of those cases where YMMV and someone else could easily experience a sorority disaster. It does happen. I had a rough start with mine, actually. But I wanted this tank just for this, and now that it's all done, I'm really pleased with my betta rainbow. And fwiw, I get a HUGE kick out of being nipped by the girls at feeding times


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## AyalaCookiejar

I am still scared to get close enough for one of them to bite me because my blind male is aggressive and he bites HARD (he didn't bite me but he latched on to something well enough that I pulled him out of the water still attached, like a dog that won't let go of a toy, lol.)

From what I can tell, there are very few females who won't work out in a sorority and some who even prefer the company. Since fish can't talk, its hard to tell which ones will work best.

There's a lot of planning involved, too. Unless you have an already cycled filter and/or live plants, I wouldn't start a sorority. A sorority of all rescues might be hard because they need to all be released at the same time with no less than 4 girls. However, in my ten gallon I was able to do a QT set up for 6 girls and its working well for me if you would like to know how I did that.

It is a little stressful which is why water quality is so important in a sorority. I got VitaChem specifically because I knew I was setting up a sorority tank. Its also the only reason I got live plants and a ton of silk plants to fill in until the live plants grow.

However, I don't have my sorority completely set up, yet. My 6 girls will be released into their tank Monday and then I'll have some personal experience to share


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## AyalaCookiejar

So I released the girl into the tank today... For whoever asked, I used ziplock bags and they worked great up until the point where I actually tipped the bags and let them swim out, lol. I tried to do all six of them at once and the bags wouldn't stay open and one got stuck in the bag and was quite distressed about it! But even scooping them up was nearly effortless. I did decide to seal the bags, though. They were the regular sandwich size ones and I filled them half full, blew air into them and let them float since it was very temporary.

When I first released them, Ascari and Daihatsu went at it! I think I saw everyone flare except for my EE girls which is surprising! Ascari is doing most of the flaring, chasing, and fin nipping and there's quite a bit of it but no injuries that I can see. Lotus has the idea, though. She found a corner in the back near the bottom where she is content swimming around and she's pretty well hidden so the other girls aren't bothering her.

I was surprised that Ascari is so aggressive because she seemed the calmest in QT. Mercy, my purple girl, seems to be holding her own very well but she doesn't actively go looking for other girls to attack like Ascari - she doesn't take Ascari's attitude, though.


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## Shadyr

I hope they settle in soon! Your EE girls sound so sweet. And if you have any pics of them all in, we'd love to see


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## AyalaCookiejar

They have already settled down! Still some slight chasing but some of it almost looks like following, lol. Stella and Lotus (the EE girls) are still pretty mellow, which surprised me because they did most of the flaring in QT!

After a few hours of letting them sort out things on their own, they seem to be minding their own and not getting super aggressive when the other girls are close to them. The more dominant ones (mostly the dragon girls and the purple girl) seem to give everyone the "look" and they swim off, but the dragon girls really stand up to each other. They kind of look like dogs when they stare at each other and growl before they fight, but without the fighting.

Even though I left them alone, I don't see any new fin damage at all. Mercy, my purple female, has an itty bitty piece missing on the tip of her tail from shipping. The conflict and heavy breathing seems to have vanished now. They are cute to watch. Sometimes it looks like they're giving each other kisses!? (Not locking lips, though.)

I had to baffle the filter more because the outflow was pushing them downwards! They kept swimming into it on purpose like "wtf!?" LOL.

I have pictures of each of them individually, one of the tank and one (bad) picture of four of the six in the tank. I'll no doubt get more better pictures with my actual camera, though. I have to go dig those up because I'm on my phone.


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## AyalaCookiejar

Lotus









Stella









Kuraokami (Okami)









Daihatsu









Ascari









Murcielago (Mercy)




And the tank:


















Stella, Lotus and Mercy have better pictures because they were actually taken on my camera, not my phone 

The live plants are in the front of the tank and silk plants in the back to fill in because I obviously do not have enough live ones yet for sufficient cover


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## Otterfun

Lotus is cute


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## bannlow2471

Beautiful tank, and such lovely girls!


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## Sagat

Awesome, Ayala! I finally decided to get my girls out of quarantine too, but was so entranced by them I forgot to shoot video. They'd been in there three weeks, but on Friday, one of them got a chunk bitten out of her tail and I decided it was best to get them in their real home since they seem to be getting ready to establish territories.

Since it's a planted tank, they spent the entire night exploring and hunting for scuds.

I didn't see this in the original post, and Ayala mentioned turning DOWN the filter, so I thought I would mention it... One trick I learned from Chard56 (who I got all of my girls from) is that high filter flow helps mitigate aggression -- the water flow can interrupt an attack by forcing the two to have to swim hard to stay in place.

Videos of my girls instead of pictures:
Quarantine tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riWjLu2ushc
Display tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMGM6IMaC8

I still haven't found good names for my girls yet, so I'm still identifying them by body features.


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## Shadyr

The thing with the outflow - my girls do that too! They will "ride" the moving water all the way from the back to the front, and then often peel out, go back and do it again! I imagine they are doing the fish equivalent of yelling "Wheeee!" as they go.

It looks nice and I'm glad they are settling down


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## justmel

Got a question for you all. I had to take my sorority apart because one of my ladies ended up being a boy. I got a female to replace him with last night. While I acclimated her & put her in her QT tank she was fine. A little stressed and kept swimming all over the place, but no stress stripes or anything like that. I put her QT tank by the other girls so they could get used to the site of each other & that changed. She lost all her color and very prominent stress stripes showed. All the sudden she clamped up a little and seemed to try and make herself as small as possible. She's twice the size of my other ladies, but it was obvious the site of them really upset her, so I blocked her view of them & when she didn't start relaxing I blocked her view of everything else overnight. This morning the stress stripes are gone, she's swimming like normal, no more clamped fins or anything. When she see's the girl it's the same reaction, so I've isolated her again. Am I handling this correctly or is it better to leave her where she can see the other ladies. She's in QT for 2 weeks and the sorority won't be going back up until then at the earliest, so I can take it slow if she just needs some special attention and time to relax.

What I know of this females past is this - some lady had 5 bettas and for some reason had to get rid of them, so she gave them to the pet store to sell. Being as she gave them 5 bettas at once and said they were all female I think she tried a failed sorority. When I bought the boy from the tank all the females were hiding behind the filter and absolutely colorless. So she's been rather stressed lately anyway.


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## Stone

What's with all the spam and eggs lately?


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## peachii

Stone said:


> What's with all the spam and eggs lately?


This post was in reference to several spam bot posts that got put here that were deleted by a mod and left without an answer.


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## whitebetta34

LittleBettaFish said:


> I've seen a lot of threads on sororities asking pretty basic questions and although I know that there is a thread already dedicated to this, it seems kind of disorganised and the OP doesn't cover as many areas as I think it needs to.
> 
> I had this floating around on an unfinished site of mine so thought it might be helpful to those thinking of starting up a sorority tank.
> 
> Feel free to add any of your own experiences to this post. I think I covered most of the major areas where people run into trouble but if you think something is important post it up.
> 
> 
> 
> *Introduction to Betta Sororities*​Your first question might be, ‘What exactly is a betta sorority?’ In short, a ‘sorority’is a group of female Betta splendens housed together in the same tank.
> 
> A sorority is usually one of two things: a brilliant success, or a spectacular failure. There is more to a successful sorority than just putting a group of females in a tank together and expecting them to get along.
> 
> Below, I have outlined a list of steps that should hopefully help you on your way and tilt the odds of success in your favour.
> 
> 
> *Any sorority tank should be a minimum of 10 gallons*​Female bettas can be as aggressive and unpredictable as males. Domesticated splendens have been selectively bred for generations, and were never really intended to live peacefully with others of their species.
> 
> Therefore, it is important to provide each female with enough space to get away from an aggressor, and to lessen the event of territorial flare-ups.
> 
> I usually ensure each of my females has at least 1 gallon of space per fish. However, you may want to increase this minimum if you have particularly big or hostile females. Unless your females are very young and it is only a temporary solution, I would never recommend a sorority tank be anything less than 10 gallons.
> 
> Finally, an ideal sorority tank is one that is wider rather than taller. You will often find the more dominant females will spend most of their time near the surface and may bully the others when they come up to breathe or feed. Therefore, it is best to give your females enough room to spread out.
> 
> 
> *You should provide as much cover as possible*​By blocking the line of sight from one end of the tank to the other, you can drastically lessen aggression and prevent chases from happening.
> 
> In a sparsely planted tank, there is nothing to prevent one female from chasing another around for as long as she wants. As you can imagine, this is obviously stressful for the fish being chased, and usually once the fish is caught, there is nowhere for her to escape from an attack.
> 
> Ideally I like to see most of the tank covered with either artificial or live plants. You want plants that provide cover at all levels of the tank. It is no use having lots of very short plants at the bottom, when your females are chasing and fighting up top!
> 
> I found my females rarely if ever went into hides such as terracotta caves or PVC pipe tunnels. Other people may have different experiences, but I have found the most favoured hiding places were in amongst the plants, particularly up near the surface.
> 
> 
> *You need a minimum of four-five females*​A successful sorority is often one that is over rather than understocked. Indeed, you will find it very difficult to maintain long-term a sorority that has only 2-3 individuals. Generally the most dominant individual(s) will attack the weakest until she is either dead or extremely stressed.
> 
> To avoid this from happening, you want to have enough females that any aggression is dispersed rather than targeted at the weakest female. Some people are much more conservative with the stocking of their sororities, but I feel that the more females you have, the less prolonged aggression you will see.
> 
> If you cannot purchase or house any more than 2-3 females, I would advise against a sorority. It is only be a matter of time before you see the results of poor stocking, in the form of disease, injury and even death. An alternative solution in these instances is to either divide up a single tank, or house each female separately from the other.
> 
> 
> *It is best to choose the youngest females possible*​Older, mature females that have lived alone are more inclined to react with extreme aggression when placed in a sorority environment. While most tend to adapt and become part of the community after an initial introduction period, some will continue to act aggressively and will need to be at removed.
> 
> Younger females (siblings from the same spawn are often the best candidates for sororities particularly if they have yet to be separated) are usually much less territorial and aggressive. There is usually much less serious fighting between individuals while sorting out a hierarchy, and they tend to be much more flexible with the introduction of new tankmates.
> 
> However, one danger in choosing young females is that you will end up with a male plakat instead. This has happened to me once or twice, and for those without separate accommodations, can be quite the headache.
> 
> Females tend to have a rounder body shape than males, and in light coloured females, you should also be able to make out the ovaries as a small yellowish triangle behind the intestines. Male plakats will often have longer ventrals, a pronounced beard, possibly a fuller caudal, and generally a sharper angle to their anal fin. While they may not have a visible eggspot, it is not uncommon for younger males to have an ovipositor as well . Therefore, the presence of an eggspot alone is often not a good determinant of gender.
> The best advice I can give, is that if in doubt, don’t purchase.
> 
> 
> *Ensure that your water parameters are nothing short of perfect*​Living in even the most peaceful sorority environment is often quite stressful for a female betta. She must not only compete for food and for territory, but also must deal with the close proximity of equally territorial and aggressive fish.
> 
> Stress in fish is one of the number one causes for outbreaks of disease. While poor water quality may not kill your females outright, it can compromise their immune system, leaving them vulnerable to diseases a healthy fish may otherwise have managed to fight off.
> 
> In poor water conditions, when one female becomes sick it is usually quickly spread to every other female in the tank as well. This is why it is important to monitor your water parameters and ensure that they are always within an appropriate range. Any readings less than ideal demand an immediate water change and a look at the way the tank is being maintained.
> 
> 
> *Aggression in sororities*​The question I often hear from most of those new to sororities is "What is too much aggression and when should I intervene?"
> 
> You have to remember when dealing with bettas, that aggression is a perfectly natural behaviour. However, this does not mean that your sorority tank should look like a WWF wrestling match.
> 
> It is common for there to be some fighting when you first introduce your females. This could be anything from posturing, body slapping, flaring, chasing and biting. This usually settles down within a couple of days although it is perfectly normal to see occasional flare-ups.
> 
> For me, the time to intervene is when there is more than a couple of minutes of sustained fighting between two females in which obvious damage is being done. I separate out whoever looks to be the aggressor, and put them into a breeders' net that sits in my sorority tank. I find this is often the best method of introducing particularly aggressive females as by the end of the week, they are generally accustomed to the other females being nearby and less inclined to over react when reintroduced.
> 
> I also intervene if it is obvious one female is being continually bullied by the others. If a female is starting to lose a lot of condition, or has severe fin and scale damage it is time to pull her from the sorority. It can be difficult to understand why certain females are targeted by the others. Just because a female is small or less aggressive does not mean she will be the one bullied. Therefore, it is important with a sorority tank that you find the time each day to check on your females and see that everyone is in good physical shape. I speak from experience when I say it does not take long for things to suddenly fall apart.
> 
> Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes or issues. I went through it in Word but may have missed some of the less obvious grammatical errors.


Great thread! I had two females in a 55 gal before and 3 in a five temporarily without problems. I think it really depends on the individual fish though


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## Aryia

Started my sorority 2 days ago. I started with 10 females in a 15G. I will pull out females if they're not doing well in this setup. So far they all look healthy and good, none of them have stress bars or paleness (some of them actually turned more colorful!). There's some minor chasing and 2-3 nips that happened, but in general they don't flare at each other much or harass others around them. 

These pictures were taking right after I fed them, which is why they're all up top. They don't seem to mind feeding together either.


















Lets hope it keeps up this way >.<!

Thanks for this awesome guide : )


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## BlueLacee

Wow!!!! Really great thread. Will be coming back


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## MisterEastinBetta

*My Sorority Tank*








I have a sorority tank of 5 females. I love this tank. I researched for weeks as far as how many females to add to tank, hiding places, other possible tankmates, you name it. Even people at the LFS tried to tell me I couldn't do it. Well, I did and so far (knock on wood), my tank has been a success.:welldone:

This article is amazing. I had not found this article while researching but I will say that I sat my tank up almost exactly like this article describes to do. I do believe that a lot of cover and hiding places are the absolute key to success with a betta sorority tank.

I have 2 oto's and corydoras (tiny cory) in the tank to eat any uneaten food and to eat algae. (I also feed my cory and oto fish an excellent diet). Everyone in the tank is living happily together. 

I have a heater in the tank, filter, air stone and I always have clean water in the tank. It's a 10 gallon tank but will soon be a twenty gallon.

I also believe that feeding a sorority tank (and all betta fish) an excellent well rounded diet keeps them much healthier, especially in cases of stressful situations, such as aggressive fish being housed together.

They tell you to feed your mating bettas frozen blood worms, brine shrimp and such two weeks before breeding to get them into tip top condition. My reaction to this is to ask why wouldn't you feed them the best possible diet every day??

Excellent diets for the betta do help their immune system and helps keep them healthier during stressful times.

Constipation you say? No problem with it. Once a week I feed them blanched cucumbers, zucchini, or unshelled peas. (all blanched) My oto's love the veggies too. Once a week, my babies fast. 

Their diet and frequent 20% water changes must be working because Mr. Blue blows a bubble nest one day and once it's gone, he blows another!! He's a happy boy. My males have 3 gallon tanks with filter, pump, and heaters. I will NOT keep a betta in a bowl. 

I want to thank for for posting this complete how to article. It took me rummaging the internet and reading many many articles on how to's for a sorority tank and then putting my own thoughts and ideas together with what I read to get my sorority tank............When all I needed was this one article. It's wonderful. Thank you so very much.

My Sorority Tank


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## Nicole804

I have a male and female betta. They both been in the tank together for a little over a month now. Today I don't know what happened to my babies. They are not liking each other now. My female has been eating the males tail. So I had to remove him so she don't kill him. She is also full of eggs. How can I get them use to each other again. 
P's. He is missing the middle part of his tail. When he not with her he look sad.


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## LittleBettaFish

Nicole, it is not recommended to keep male and female bettas together. 

Bettas do not get lonely. They are a fairly solitary fish by nature and it is much less stressful for your fish to be kept alone than for you to try and force them to live together.

If they are behaving this aggressively now, it is most likely going to escalate until you have an injured or dead fish on your hands.

For the best interest of your fish I would suggest you keep them separate from now on.


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## Kuunsilta

Hey everyone! 

I was wondering if I could get a little advise on speedy healing for tail nips? I just set up my sorority a few days ago, and it's doing well. I have six cuties in my sorority. I have three girls who've been fighting for the top of the hierarchy. These three are the only ones with slightly tattered fins. I haven't been overly concerned with their fights, because chases only last a few seconds ( lots of places to hide and escape) and it's been mostly flares and tail slaps. I do feel bad about the tattered fins though. 

I have Melafix that I've been putting in the tank as well as a tad bit of aquarium salt. I'm also feeding them freeze dried blood worms and some pellets. I toss some pellets in there because they sink, and the girls who like to feed at the bottom will get some food. Is there anything else I can do for a speedy recovery on their fins? I feel bad, because I imagine it hurts, and they have such beautiful fins =(

I do have a little breeder's net to hang in the tank in case someone get's too aggressive or too weak.


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## BlueLacee

Deffinatly deserves to be a sticky. This will be my bible one day


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## scififan523

I used Searchem Stress Guard to help my Kisa recover after a breeding attempt. It's been a week and the clear regrowth is almost fully there (just needs a little more on her caudal), and the color is starting to creep back into her fins.


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## Btinus

Thanks for putting time to make this


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## creativeace

really good information, I am impressed and appreciate the advice. If I ever own female betta fish I will be sure to accesss this page a lot.


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## fishnherp

Thanks a million for this post! I've relied on this multiple times and now I have a 30 gallon sorority, that's coming out swell! Thx again!


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## D2W

I once had two females together in a tank. The first time they saw each other, they both flared, but that was it. They had a 6.5 gallon tank to wander through and basically ignored each other. They just got fed at opposite ends. However, they may not have been very representative of the average female betta, since they had been kept together with about 30 other females in an overcrowded tank at the pet store. Chances are they already knew each other and just went "Oh, you." 
On the other hand, I once tried to keep three females together in a 5-gallon tank, and it was a disaster. The first two, who were similar in size, seemed fine with each other, but the third, who was very tiny, turned out to be vicious. She attacked the other two almost immediately, which set both of them off. So it was a three-way betta war. I ended up having to separate all of them because after that, none of them would tolerate any other fish.
Now I keep my females in adjacent tanks. That way they can have their little territorial fits without hurting anyone. After a while, they figure out that they can't get to each other and stop flaring.


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## Crossroads

I've had my sorority up and running for some time and besides some flaring and nipped fins when someone gets a stick up their butt, all seems to be well. However, my tank is only open in 3 spots at the front so I can feed them. The rest is packed so thick with myrio and rotala that sometimes my girls can barely swim.

However, I have 8 in a 20 gallon long.

Bakara and Shepard are my alpha girls. Everyone moves for them.
Tali is next in line as far as I can tell, she's the main aggressor.
Jack is always an aggressor and her and Tali get into spats often but never more than a nipped fin or chasing.
Aria is next.
Liara falls below that then Silas and Domino.

Domino is usually hidden, partially cause she's small and also because she's at the bottom of the pack. She eats with my cories and just follows them for food.


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## BettasnOscars

this post has helped me a lot with my sorority.


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## Crossroads

For future reference, disregard my above post. The best tip I can offer people wanting to start a successful sorority is....don't.

Sororities balance on the tip of a needle and the slightest thing can plummet them into failure. Adding in other tankmates puts it on an even thinner needle. My tank was vastly overfiltered, planted like a jungle that I had to clip weekly and was on a weekly water change schedule. The entire tank crashed in the course of a month. First, 90% of my plants started melting, and I lost two cories and Domino.
A couple weeks later I replanted (or tried). The following day, I noticed Shepard with columnaris. I lost 9 female bettas to acute columnaris and watched most of them drop in 48 hours. I lost most of the tank in the course of a week despite dosing with Kanaplex. While it feels good at first to get so many out of the cups at the store, in the end you aren't doing them a favor. If you want to get so many out, I'd suggest a fairly large tank(say a twenty long or larger) and divide it. You won't be able to house ten in the 20 long like you could with an undivided, but the stress will be diminished and the chance of losing an entire tank to stress induced illnesses will too.


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## LittleBettaFish

I agree Crossroads. It can be an extremely delicate balance trying to achieve long-term success with a sorority. Sororities do seem much more susceptible to sudden outbreaks of disease than those bettas kept by themselves, or in a community setting. I think it's just the constant stress of a sorority environment that causes these collapses, and it's why I really don't advocate sororities as much as I used to. I find people also get lazy with their sororities and forget to check their water parameters as frequently, skip proper quarantine procedures, or ignore signs of increasing aggression or early symptoms of disease. You simply cannot do this with a sorority. They are not really tanks you can set and forget.


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## Kithy

LittleBettaFish said:


> I agree Crossroads. It can be an extremely delicate balance trying to achieve long-term success with a sorority. Sororities do seem much more susceptible to sudden outbreaks of disease than those bettas kept by themselves, or in a community setting. I think it's just the constant stress of a sorority environment that causes these collapses, and it's why I really don't advocate sororities as much as I used to. I find people also get lazy with their sororities and forget to check their water parameters as frequently, skip proper quarantine procedures, or ignore signs of increasing aggression or early symptoms of disease. You simply cannot do this with a sorority. They are not really tanks you can set and forget.


Guilty of a lot of this.

Community tanks, particularly those with peaceful type fish, are fairly sit back and enjoy at your leisure. Can't do that with a sorority. Mine were doing good for a while. Out of no where a few started to pinecone with no symptoms other than that. They were still swimming around, flaring and eating. Had neons and platys in the tank and they're still alive and fine. No idea what happened. I supposed it was from bullying that I did not witness that could have led to internal damage and then pine coning? 

Sororities so pretty to look at but... you can get the same effect with a bunch of guppies with less stress.


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## Velxunai

Hey guys, I set up a sorority a few months back and today noticed that not only is one of my girls finally showing her true blue colour but it is clear she has some wounds... Should I remove her to recover?



As for parameters pH seems to be at 7.0 which is bad. I don't think I have anything to lower it in a hurry... Would that be urgent for me to get something?


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## LittleBettaFish

Where are the wounds? Do you mean the stripes on her face? Those are part of her natural colouring and nothing to worry about.

Also I have a feeling that blue female at the front may actually be a plakat male. Anyone else think the same looking at the photo? Just the size of the ventral fins, the angle of the anal fin, and the body shape suggests to me that 'she' may actually be a 'he'. 

Also a pH of 7 is fine. Don't mess chemically with your pH. It can lead to fluctuations and this can be stressful to your fish. It's ammonia and nitrite you really need to watch out for, not pH.


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## MattsBettas

I agree with LBF, that blue fish is almost certainly a male... I would remove it ASAP.


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## Velxunai

Really?! Gosh! Will remove him/her immediately!


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## Velxunai

Better double check this one isn't a male too... It is the most dominant one showing their true rich colours the day after I got her (him?)


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## hrutan

I've been watching a few threads, and after talk with another breeder and friend of mine, feel like it's time for a reminder....

*Fish do not have XY chromosomes.* No joke. Their sex is fluid. A female can turn to a male, or a male can turn to a female in the right circumstances. This is more common when the fish are still fairly young. Like the rest of us, they become less flexible as they get older...

Please, be careful with your sororities. Watch the fish. Observe the behavior. That fish sold as female may very well have been a female when it was sold, _but it might not stay that way_. This isn't a male being a "late bloomer," as some might think - sororities are a perfect environment to trigger a real and complete sex change from fertile female to fully fertile male. Once a male is present, all heck is going to break loose in the tank until he's removed. The girls WILL fight over the "new" boy. Usually, the one that switches will have been the alpha female, although not always.

Known triggers for sex change in fish: Being removed from, or having the alpha male removed from the tank. In other words: Jarring time or sororities.


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## Velxunai

He /she did however turn out to just be a she  
But you do make a good point hrutan.


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## MameJenny

hrutan said:


> I've been watching a few threads, and after talk with another breeder and friend of mine, feel like it's time for a reminder....
> 
> *Fish do not have XY chromosomes.* No joke. Their sex is fluid. A female can turn to a male, or a male can turn to a female in the right circumstances. This is more common when the fish are still fairly young. Like the rest of us, they become less flexible as they get older...
> 
> Please, be careful with your sororities. Watch the fish. Observe the behavior. That fish sold as female may very well have been a female when it was sold, _but it might not stay that way_. This isn't a male being a "late bloomer," as some might think - sororities are a perfect environment to trigger a real and complete sex change from fertile female to fully fertile male. Once a male is present, all heck is going to break loose in the tank until he's removed. The girls WILL fight over the "new" boy. Usually, the one that switches will have been the alpha female, although not always.
> 
> Known triggers for sex change in fish: Being removed from, or having the alpha male removed from the tank. In other words: Jarring time or sororities.


Jeez, I never knew that was even possible in bettas. Do you have any links explaining how this works? Going to have to research that a bit...I had no idea that they don't have XY chromosomes. Certainly explains why so many sorority females "turn into" short-finned males. I fear for my girls' feminine virtue now. :lol:


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## Fawneh1359

I've been considering a sorority for a long time and just a while ago, the opportunity arose. My dad and I have come to a compromise. I can move my first boy (Dawn) upstairs to my room, as long as I get something to replace where he was. 

When I first got the tank, I moved it around a bit, and scratches appeared on the countertop that I did not notice until much later. Therefore, I am not allowed to take Dawn and his tank away.

However, recently my father decided he wanted a tank of fish that can live together. So our compromise is, I can move the tank up, and get a full 20g of fish and plants HE will fund, if I find a way to have a community tank. Of course, I jumped at the chance to add more bettas in there and finally get my dream females. So, I did some research, and have had varied responses but quite a few positive ones.

My idea is to get about 6-8 platies, and then maybe 5 female bettas in a community tank/sorority. My father has already agreed to this, but I am still asking whoever I can if it's a good idea. The females will all be from petstores, so they should be fine with others. I will try to buy as many as I can at the same time and leave them near each other for a while until I put them into the tank.

It was recommended that I add platies first and let them adjust a bit, so I'll probably work on that. After a little while, I plan to add females in cups and let them adjust for a good amount of time (to each other, and to the platies). I know the rule to let them all in at once. I am hoping to get a tank as planted as possible, so the platies and female can hide if necessary.

I guess my questions are:
1. If you know anything about platies, is it a good idea?
2. Otherwise, any tips for the sorority?

Thank you in advance  Your thread helped quite a bit.

In addition, I plan to watch the tank as often as possible, preferably at least check up on it for several minutes several times a day, and that's when I'm busy. Otherwise, I'll try to spend even hours nearby.

I plan to check parameters at least every two or one day to begin. I plan to make sure the tank is FULLY cycled before beginning, although this is taking up a lot of research on my part (I have never cycled a tank before).

[Side note=what do recommend for cycling besides Master Kit (ammonia in a bottle, bacteria, ect.)?]


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## Velxunai

Platys are great with female fighters  I have four currently chasing and teasing my girls (and sometimes schooling around them lol). My only complaints about them are the amount of waste they produce... They constantly have a string of poop hanging from them which isn't very attractive. 
I suggest getting all one gender so that you don't get overstocked. Mine are all boys so there is a little bit of dominance showing. But nothing overly aggressive. I do think mine are also hybrids. Because two are fat and round like balloon mollies and the other two are tiny thin and zippy. 

Goodluck


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## Fawneh1359

Velxunai said:


> Platys are great with female fighters  I have four currently chasing and teasing my girls (and sometimes schooling around them lol). My only complaints about them are the amount of waste they produce... They constantly have a string of poop hanging from them which isn't very attractive.
> I suggest getting all one gender so that you don't get overstocked. Mine are all boys so there is a little bit of dominance showing. But nothing overly aggressive. I do think mine are also hybrids. Because two are fat and round like balloon mollies and the other two are tiny thin and zippy.
> 
> Goodluck


Wow XD
How do you tell the difference between the girls and boys? I've still yet to research that.
I'm planning to get one gender, probably male...once I figure out how to tell.
Thank you!


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## Velxunai

If you google "male and female platys" and go to images there are some great photos and diagrams to show you how to tell


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## Fawneh1359

Velxunai said:


> If you google "male and female platys" and go to images there are some great photos and diagrams to show you how to tell


Thank you  I just did that. I think I get it, although the fins are still a bit confusing. I’ll have to check with the petstore in case.


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## jasonn1990

Great thread and info. I'm new to all this and this has helped a lot with answering a few of my questions!


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## MattsBettas

I've looked in to bettas changing sex... They're was absolutely no real, non-anecdotal evidence that showed that this could occur in a home setting without the artificial addition of hormones (which even then essentially only changed secondary sex characteristics and genetalia structure, no word on whether the effects were reversible but they very well could be). 

Hrutan, I'd be happy to look through a study or piece of information that is not anecdotal, showing that bettas (not clownfish or certain other fish that actually can change sex) can change their sex in conditions that would be present in a hobbiest setup. From what I've seen and read there's no evidence that this can happen and that it isn't just the keeper sexing the fish too early or incorrectly (which certainly does happen!).


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## LittleBettaFish

This is the only thing I have seen that is related to gender change in bettas.

Otherwise I have never heard of adult fish changing gender in a hobbyist's tank.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1110348


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## BaileyBetta

Do you think this tank would work for a 6 fish sorority? The dilemma I am having is it is going on the end of a desk's L side so will be viewed from two sides and the 20 gallon longs and highs don't really work that way.I will do heavily planted with tall driftwood and floating plants too. Thanks for your thoughts!

Aqueoun 15 gallon column

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1J6FRD61XHY09J2T9EDK


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## Tress

Probably not. Bettas are a top dwelling fish and taller tanks don't have as much surface area so I'd think there would be more fighting for territory near the surface. Some might not let certain ones up to feed or breathe.


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## RokStar

*=D ++ littlebetta*

So littlebettafish is a awesome member! Cant tell you how many times ive read your posts for info related to bettas. your like wikibetta! 

I just started a 10g sorority after owning a female vtail that I got on sale... it didn't seem fair to keep her in a 1g cube or to let her stay on the shelf at petsmart! she only cost 2 bucks little did I know she was about to show me how much personality females have. 
Ive since added 1hm 2cts and another vt. Day one was scary :shock:, Right after adding all of the girls the fights started. Lots of body wakes and bites, almost broke it up a phew times, but as I read on most sites its a no no. I had to add a couple more tall fake plants cause as littlebetta says the females rather hang out up top rather down low in the caves and crevasses. My main concern now is how much chasing is considered normal? My HM has taken the role as queen and is almost non stop chasing someone pore girl. Ive also noticed chasing lower down the line when the queen is not visible with the others. 
Also fin nips where noticed day 2 and I haven't noticed any real new ones since. Just keep up on the clean water to heal these girlies? or should I get some type of medicine/antibacterial 
After going through most of these posts ive learned a bit about grown females in a younger sorority. My HM seems to be the biggest, most developed, and most aggressive as she still seems to be nipping. Should I be worried about her or does she still need a phew more days? Id hate to wake up to a dead or beat up girly =*(


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## Zippy2014

That's great info. Thanks !  I find myself partial to females and would like to start a sorority one day. This gives me some great ideas. I have a 10 gallon sitting in wait. I also found recently these fake plants that have suction cups on the bottom instead of being weighed down. They'd be great for helping create vegetation cover at different levels of the tank.


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## LittleBettaFish

I did want to say, I wrote this original post a while ago. Since then, my views on sororities have changed. I no longer encourage sorority tanks as enthusiastically as I once did. They do seem to have a particularly high failure rate, likely because it is a more stressful environment than a community tank, or a tank where the betta is kept alone. 

Nowadays I think a 15-20 gallon tank is better suited than a 10 gallon for a sorority. 

As to your question RokStar, I think if chasing is continuous, and it is one fish that is always targeted, it is time to intervene. You don't want your females stressed. Stress triggers disease, and disease is one of the biggest killers of females in sorority tanks. 

If the HM female is the aggressor, I would separate her out into a breeder net. I'd keep her in the net for a short time (around a week) before releasing her. I have done this with many of my more aggressive females in the past and it has worked well. The key seems to be in that the aggressive female is separate from the others, but that they can still see her, and interact with her, without fear of being attacked. 

You always have to remember, there will be some females just aren't cut out for life in a sorority. It's not always the aggressive fish either. There are some fish that are constantly victimized and need to be removed for their own safety. Even established sororities can have issues. A sorority tank is not one that you can 'set and forget'. I believe continued monitoring is important, as this will allow you to nip any problems that arise, in the bud, and prevent them from escalating further.


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## 0Bubbles0

MisterEastinBetta said:


> My Sorority Tank


Is that plant that is half floating and half anchored real? Did you get it from Petsmart? I have the exact same looking plant that's fake!!!


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## 0Bubbles0

Here's the pic of that plant. I have a 20 gallon and I want to eventually have at least 7 females. I can't wait!! It's still cycling and I'm leaving for 2 weeks to go to Alaska. I already bought my first female because she was so beautiful I was afraid someone would take her and she looked so sad I just had to take her. Her name is Uranus.Does that plant look the same to you or what!?!?!?! :lol:


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## BettaBoy11

Is the first fish in the tank yet? I may be wrong (I don't know that much about cycling) but doesn't the bacteria die if it is in a tank for too long without a fish?


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## IsaiahKey

I have a question about the ammonia to use with a tank. I started my cycling on Sunday with ~4PPM of ammonia I bought from Meijer. Today is the second time I've tested the water to see if any drops have happened (I was told to check when I noticed my water looked kinda foggy) and it's still 4PPM with no nitrites. The water is still kind of foggy too.

So I did some poking around and learned that my ammonia is ammonia hydroxide and it foams when I shake it. I have a live plant in my tank, a little anubis. I've been keeping the main light in my room on for it and it doesn't seem to be affected yet.

Am I doing eveything right? Should I dump my water and wash everything and start over with something else? Right now I could technically do a fish in cycle. I'm at home full time and the tank is set up next to my work station, so it's easy for me to test daily and do the needed water changes if I have to. I just don't seem to be able to find a pure ammonia source where I am at.


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## Ishmael

This is very helpful! I'll definitely take some of these tips with me.


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## Blue Moon Betta Lover

Hello I been wanting to start a sorority but I have a question. I have a older crowntail female Betta living by herself for about a year and if I set up a sorority would it me OK for me to put her in their. The other question is how many should I put in the 10 gallon tanks 5 or 6, including her.


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## Tourmaline

I don't know much about female Bettas or sorority tanks, but I do know a 10 gallon tank is much too small for a sorority tank. 20 gallons minimum is recommended.


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## EdBetaRed

How about a 60 Gallon, its a tank I used to use for Mbunas just cleaned it out and is just under 5 feet long. Would this be way too larger or nice to have say 25 females in ?


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## Guppie luver

You can't really get too large, as long as you have full coverage.


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## Rizo

I have a 20 gal that I want to start a sorority in. I'm thinking of getting 5 ladies for it, 3 fancy ones and a couple rescues in need of a good home.

I live in BC in Canada. Any recommended breeders??


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## Hallyx

Member Logisticsguy is in BC -- near Vancouver, I think.

View Profile: logisticsguy

He always has females. Giants, too.


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## shock

Lots of good info in this thread. I haven't found yet though: how many is too many? And more specifically, I'm setting up a 36 gallon tank. I would like to stay comfortably understocked.

I always read roughly 5 minimum, but never a maximum.

Maybe someone could define some ranges for different size tanks too...?


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## LittleBettaFish

One female per gallon is my 'maximum' stocking level. 

While I wouldn't personally recommend starting up a sorority with anything less than five individuals, I believe the success of a sorority is determined more so by the temperament of the individual females, than the number of them.


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## BettaMommaHeather

We did a 50% water change on my girls tank, and my oldest girl has been acting weird all day since then. Literally pacing in the tank. She settled down when the lights went out, but I just got up and checked on them and I noticed a huge piece of tail fin is missing from Sindragosa, now I am not gonna point fingers at anyone. I do have plastic and not live plants so its possible that they caused it but I'm pretty sure it was bitten off. My question is should I remove Sin from the tank. The only other tank I have is not set up for fish right now. 
As I am writing this, hubs wants me to get the other tank rinsed and ready. So guess we are moving one out.


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## nananaja003

It's good for it. I'm not familiar with it
ทางเข้า royal1688


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## nessabetta

very useful!


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## turtlebud20106

very great sticky! I have a thread related to yours where I give simple tips that helped my sorority to be successful I hope you read it, although it is very long. My thread is called Sorrorites ( from my experience). Once again though your tips are amazing!


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## firewood04

Well I did it! I started a sorority about 2 months ago after a lot of research. I had purchased 5 girls 2 crown tails, 2 half moon, and a veil tail for the sorority. I tested them together, set up the tank with lots of plants to swim through/hide and keep chasing to a minimum. 

It was very stressful for me from the start as the 2 crown tails (Priscilla & Athena) fought to be the queen bee with the veil tail (Juliet) while the other two (Camilla & Felicia) could care less and swam around doing their own thing. They were all released at the same time and eventually Priscilla and Athena gave way to Juliet. Juliet wouldn't back down from them even after they gave up the fight for the top spot. She chased them relentlessly, nipped them, then started on Camilla too! She seemed to not bother Felicia for some reason. So I put her in the breeder net for a week to see if we could calm down her aggression. I moved plants around and then freed her after one week. 

It didn't help at all! Juliet immediately started posturing, then body slapping which turned into nipping all the others except Felicia. So I removed her to a 5 gallon divided tank with an older, larger koi named Kyra which was out of sight line to the sorority. The moment I removed Juliet, I had peace and harmony in the sorority with only an occasional chase but they all behave wonderfully during the feeding times. I kept her in the divided tank for a week, then moved her to the breeding net for another week and moved the plants around again. When I released her, Athena decided to fight her by posturing and body slapping Juliet. They postured and body slapped when all of a sudden Priscilla decided to get in the skirmish and Athena backed down and swam away. Then Priscilla followed Athena which started Juliet back to chasing, and nipping. I have given up on Athena being part of the sorority and she will live out her days in the divided 5 gallon tank with Kyra. 

There is once again peace and harmony in the sorority and healing of tails of course! I am now enjoying the sorority and I know there are only 4 fish in there but it works so much better this way!


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