# Mystery Disease killed 5 so far....



## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I have no idea what it is all my males I had about 3 months ago are now showing the same symptoms... what are the symptoms...? Lethargy thats all I got... they lay down and just stay there breathing heavy. My idea internal parasites but I have no idea how they all got them the ones who got sick showed it before they moved into a divided tank and now the symptoms are worse. Also they kinda have a bloated tummy and dont eat as much so I am going to try a anti parasitic, what do you guys recommend? Right now they are all heated in a tank at 78* with aq salt. 
So far I have lost Montey, Salmon, Hucklberry, Zimmerman, and an unnamed...
Ones sick now: ******, Poe, Little Ryan, Splatter and now Coal 
I dont know what I'd do if I lost more... please guys I need help...


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

I know General Cure saved Frog's live when she had a 3 week bout with parasites. Jungle Parasite tabs might work as well since they aren't eating so much and the medicated pellets aren't so appealing.

Epsom salt might help with the bloating too, but I don't know about using it at the same time with aq salt.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Creat, I'm so sorry to hear you've lost so many of your guys.  I agree with you, it sounds like an internal parasite or a bad bacterial infection. My suggestion is to try Maracyn 2 and General Cure together, if you think your boys are strong enough to handle the double dose of medicine. Also, slowly switch them from AQ salt to epsom salt, 1 tsp per gallon. The combination of the meds should take care of any internal parasites and any bacteria that might be lurking in there.

If you don't feel comfortable using two medicines, then go with the General Cure. But in both cases, be sure to use epsom salt. 

Good luck and keep us posted. I'll be thinking about your boys and I hope they pull through for you.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks guys oh and my other question should I does the entire divided tank together or just take the ones showing symptoms out? And I wouldnt mind doing 2 medicines.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

I would dose the entire tank with epsom salt for sure. If it's parasites it would probably be safer to dose the entire tank with general cure just to kill any eggs that may have dropped as well since those will just keep restarting the problem.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

My only concern is making sure the medicine gets to all parts of the tank. One time I tried to do tannins for my divided 5.5g. I put the bag in one side and a half hour later, I noticed that all the tannins were on just the one side, none had gotten through the holed divider. :/ It was kinda weird, like a black and white tank. Only, uh, tea brown. Brown and white tank.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

In my divided tank I just divide the medicine up between the three parts, that way it gets to everyone that needs it for sure and might go through the divider later. I usually put the most of the dose in with the worst one just so I can be sure they're going to get treatment.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good idea. Much better than what I did with the tannins, which was cup out one male, remove the divider, swish the water around, try to jam the divider back in, mumble under my breath a lot, finally get the divider back and release the cupped betta. :roll: If there's a hard way, I'm sure to find it.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

It's alright. I've learned the hard way on how to get around doing things the hard way. I've got 18 years of practice on that. Stove is hot, gotta touch it to make sure. I'm just thankful I figured something out for the medications instead of having to deal with 2 dividers that like to roll up unless wedged in somewhere. the Petsmart ones are convenient until you have to set them up.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Here's an update
I could only get my hands on Maracyn II
Poe has died... 
and each of the males has developed some kind of bloody red streak on their fins or body...


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

I don't know much about fish illness.  But the red streaking is indicative of 2 things as far as I know; ammonia poisoning (which I pretty much ruled out based on the experience you have) and hemorrhagic septicemia. 

Apparently the septicemia can be viral or bacterial. If it is bacterial you need a broad spectrum antibiotic, stronger than maracyn 2; one that is internal, as far as I have read.

I've seen some mention of something called "red pest," but I have never heard of it. For reference: http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/redpest.php

If it is an internal bacterial infection...maracyn 2 will be of little help. 

I wish I could offer more advice. But the red streaks stuck out to me and since the other things have not worked; I think a virulent bacteria or virus is at work here.

I am very sorry for your troubles.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Any help is a big help and thank you ... can you recomend anything to use for it what ever thy have is internal and honestly I dont have any thing for internal parasites in the area I am looking for some black market fish medication as sad as that is


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

Creat said:


> Any help is a big help and thank you ... can you recomend anything to use for it what ever thy have is internal and honestly I dont have any thing for internal parasites in the area I am looking for some black market fish medication as sad as that is


I read about that, I am very sorry it has come to that.  People can abuse almost anything as a drug; maybe some day the "people in charge" so to speak will realize that pulling needed products off the shelves will not stop them from finding something else to get high on.

As far as the illness; I hope someone more qualified comes in here to make a recommendation. All I really know is what I've seen online. Two things worthy of note though: if it's bacterial, this link may help: http://nippyfish.net/sick-betta/septicemia-infection/ with choosing a medication. 

As with any medication you of course want to be reasonably sure of the diagnosis, as medication of any sort can be stressful on the fish just as the illness is. But because you are losing them.. you may have to be more aggressive. 

It's times like these I wish I was still in touch with some of the experts I've known *smacks self on head*

*wanted to add* If they are bloated...it doesn't sound like parasites to me, but I always offer illness advice with a disclaimer due to my inexperience. But from what I have known to be true, I thought with internal parasites they would tend to lose weight and not gain it. Another link that might help (pictures are good) identify: http://www.bettatalk.com/betta_diseases.htm


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Gah none of it sounds like a what my boys have... the one left who has it bad sits on the top surface of the water he is always bloated... he eats normally as do the rest of the boys.. they all have bloody red streaks on their fins or body in different places... they are also becoming very lethargic too


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

I wish I had more to offer. My only two guesses due to the red streaks would have been ammonia poisoning and internal infection.  I'm sorry. Bumping this up for someone who had dealt with something similar; and hopefully can be of more help than I can.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Hey Creat I'm really sorry about your guys.. I can't help any but I'm just here to give my support. It really sucks they took all those meds off the shelves. I hope the rest of the bettas make it.  I'm rooting for them!


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

Are you using tap water, and is it city water or well water? Sometimes water quality can change quickly and still be within legal limits set by the EPA. I "think" you have a right to request the most recent results of any testing done if you have city water. I did the same when I discovered I had a fairly significant nitrate reading straight out of my tap. Maybe it's something worth investigating in the meantime.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The bloody streak is called septicemia; it's an infection in the blood or basically blood poisoning. The Maracyn-2 is supposed to treat that as well. I'm so sorry Poe died. I hope the Maracyn-2 gives a big whammy to whatever the other guys have. Best of luck!


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks for all the love guys me and my boys appreciate it


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## Here Fishy Fishy Fishy (Oct 29, 2010)

Creat,

Dragonfile and Sakura8 nailed what I think the trouble might be: septicemia.

I used jungle bacterial pellet food to treat internally; it has gram negative and positive medication. I found those pellets a bit large, but if put in a ziplock bag and smashed smaller, the bettas will eat them (although they don't care for them much, I've noticed).

********

On a similar note: I brought home three males from two different sources. One was returned due to a growth unseen in the store. The other two were lovely in the store, but after a couple days in my water - all three males were lethargic and losing color. I brought them all back to the store.

I am concerned that the town water's 'formulation' may have changed over the summer months. 

The sorority and my single betta girl showed stress stripes after one water change about a month ago, and I mysteriously lost a girl who showed no signs of illness or injury.

The rest of the girls re-adjusted and made it through.

I wonder if your boys were stressed by something in the water which left them open to more serious problems...

It is even more worrisome to think that humans are drinking water that is toxic...

Good luck, Creat!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

HereFishyFishyFishy, do you think it would stress the fish to switch to bottled spring water until we can figure out if the tap water is to blame?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Update: Blue has started pooping white stringy things regulary keeping me suspecting internal parasites and here is the kicker...
WHAT IS ON HIS MOUTH.......
Cider has this long red thing hanging from the corner of his mouth under his eye that just showed up today what is it and can i kill it DX


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## Here Fishy Fishy Fishy (Oct 29, 2010)

Sakura8,

I wouldn't use bottled water, as water contamination hasn't been proven yet, and that would be a shock to their systems at this point. If the water isn't medicated, fresh conditioned water changes wouldn't hurt.

Jungle also makes an internal parasite food, similar to their bacterial food.

Creat,

I don't know what that is on your betta, but the male I returned had a similar growth (different location)...

I would advise PMing OFL on this one...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Is this Cider I'm looking at? (I'm guessing so, since he's not blue, haha). If he has internal parasites, it's entirely possible depending on the type, that some are starting to emerge through other parts of his body. I'm hoping the Maracyn-2 will help but it's not really a parasite med. :/ I'm beginning to think you need a really powerful parasite med like Formalin but I think if you can find it soon, General Cure will work too. 

Since you've pretty much confirmed the parasites with Blue's poop, I'm thinking maybe 3 tsps of epsom salt per gallon will help Blue pass them faster.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I am going on a full frontal attack to try to find anything for internal parasites.. if I ever find one of these buggers outside of my fish I am smashing it and lighting it on fire.... gah so irritating


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, you do that! Death to parasites everywhere! *lights propane torch*


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Looks like either flukes or leach on his face....manual removal with tweezers and deep vacuum to get the eggs out of the tank....

Nematode type is most likely the internal parasite since it is one that can also cause external hemorrhage and the fish becomes septic...

I don't normally recommend medications....but.....
You can treat with a Levamisol base type medication...Clout will treat both internal and external

Hexamita/Aeromonas is also another possibility

Nearly all fish have both internal and external parasites their whole life that they control, shed...etc on a regular basis...but since this is a closed system sometimes they can get a larger than normal build up and they become symptomatic......water quality can decline and cause stress that in turn compromises the immune response and this allows the parasites to get a foot hold......

Since I treat using natural methods...I am not sure the treatment I use will help your fish that much at this stage....my treatment can take up to 6 weeks to be effective.....they also have to be eating to eat large amounts of fresh crushed garlic 3 times a day along with 3tsp/gal Epsom salt in the water for 6 weeks...this is to help them purge the parasites...along with manual removal of parasites on the body

Be aware-some meds can cause other symptom to show up due to side effect of the chemical...make sure they are symptomatic to parasites before you treat using strong pesticides since it can sometimes kill an already weaken fish...

Just white fecal material is not always an indication of internal parasites...you should see thinning at the top line, willingness to eat, somewhat rounded tummy, sunken look to the fish, later can be seen clamp fin, lethargic, surface dwelling, gulping/gasping, redden fins and body as it progresses

Some parasites can't complete their life cycle in the aquarium environment...so once you rid them they are gone....


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## Comet1993 (Jul 28, 2011)

=[ I'm sorry that you lost so many of your fish. I hope the remaining fish pull through! <3


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks guys 
well I tried removing the parasite from Ciders face I took him out of the water in a cup and placed him in between a pair of paper towels got my best pair of tweezers and pulled on it gently, it broke off part way but I got the majority and it took a little of his mouth off I think needless to say he is unhappy I placed him into a cup of clean new water with a little aq salt heated to the same as the tank was. Hopefully he will be alright and i hope I didnt hurt him to bad...


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## Punki (Apr 30, 2011)

Aw Creat this is horrible, im sorry i dont have any answers but i commend you on doing your very best, taking him out and doing the removal had to have been especially hard. I hope they improve soon and you can figure out what exactly is causing this


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It is normal that some of the flesh is removed along with the parasite...it will usually regenerate fairly fast with clean water and salt treatment....


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Creat, I'm glad you were able to get at least part of that nasty thing off of him. I admire you for being willing to try; I would have been freaking out sooooooo bad. Way to go! All of your fish are definitely in my thoughts, as are you. You're putting up a great fight.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Well I ordered Clout gah another hit to my wallet but I am so tired of seeing them die.. so slowly and painfully ... ugh it should be here in 3 days I hope ... ****** is just sitting tilted on the surface Blue and Cider are loosing their color... Blue and ****** wont eat either neither pellets nor blood worms... their not on the maracyn 2 any more and I did a 1/3 water change today but is their something I can do to help


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

I use clout about once a week in my job, cept I call it "dylox"

It's a Bayer product. It will turn some tissues brown... like my eyes once and a while.

Keep it away from your face and if it makes your fishes' eyes brown don't worry about it.

Dylox is awesome, it kills stuff that is supposedly unkillable. Even 1/3 of the breeds of nematodes (but not labled for it).

Off-fruity smell. Add a $2.00 pack of nitrile gloves to your first aid box (walmart by the car stuff). I actually caught one of the things my fish had around my eyes... maddening itch and crusty eyelids.


Are you aerating the hospital tanks?
Do you have a veterinarian near you? About half the meds used in aquatics are used on cats or dogs.

Keep following OFL's instructions. Until you're sure what it is, too much meds might as well be a hammer.
(OFL, remember to pm me when the weird stuff shows up.)


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## Here Fishy Fishy Fishy (Oct 29, 2010)

Creat,

Sorry, gone for awhile thanks to hurricane Irene. 24 hours without power; three days no internet. Kept filters unplugged on both tanks and when power came back on, super-cleaned the filters. 

Glad to see OFL stopped by; now we both know what those nasty 'growths' were! Nice job operating on your fish. 

I hope your bettas regain their strength soon!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Creat, how are they doing? Did the Clout arrive and is it helping? I'm rooting for the little guys. I'm so sorry you and your fish are going through this and I hope the Clout or some kind of treatment puts an end to the bad health spell you're going through.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Clout still hasn't arrived gah... I lost ****** who passed away last night... Cider and Coal are eating normally and acting healthy... Blue still will not eat and has turned a gross shade of light green brown from stress, Little Ryan is clamped up his fins (something blue has not) but is at least still eating also L.R. still has a floating problem and cant swim below the surface and just floats all day... another HM male unnamed just wont eat anything else but live food he is young and I removed him as soon as these guys started getting medicated but he wont touch pellets ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aww man, I'm so sorry you lost ****** too.  Gaagh, what you're going through isn't fair! I hope the Clout arrives soon and gives whatever these guys have a big whammy. I'm glad Cider and Coal are eating anyway but poor Blue doesn't sound good at all. :/ Is L.R. in epsom salt?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

L.R. has epsom salt a little more then the rest of the tank too... and I wish I could figure out whats wrong with blue and I am surprised Coal was returned to the tank right after breeding and never got sick Cider just needed a thing removed from his head and now he is normal again ... both of them are pet store betta I got when they were sick ... and of course the healthy ones die X____X


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm glad to hear the only thing wrong with Cider was that nasty red growth (great job removing it by the way). I was afraid he had what Blue and the others had. Maybe because he and Coal were sick when you got them, they built up a resistance to whatever it is that's going around. :-? I'm definitely saying fishy prayers for all your guys, and you too.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Aw thank you 
And Here Fishy Fishy: Gah no dying in a huricane and I am glad you and your fish are all okay


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Some photo's and is that finrot on blue????
L.R. is the clamped up little guy and the black and yellow is the one I removed...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Fortunately, I don't think that's fin rot on Blue. I think if it was fin rot, there would be a lot more black and the edges would look way more raggedy, like huge chunks were falling/melting off. Maybe because he's not feeling well his fins are kind of brittle right now. 

Poor L.R. He looks like he's lost weight, too. Maybe internal parasites? So hard to tell, why these symptoms all point to multiple possibilities? Makes it that much harder to find the right treatment. :/

I'm glad the little yellow guy is doing good so far (*knocks on wood*). Picky little fellow though, I hope he'll learn to eat pellets soon. It would make it a lot easier for you.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I know L.R. is skinny and bloated and floating ... BAH 
and I noticed a tiny bit of black on Blue and tweaked out 
also something else today lots of these little white worms they float around the tank and wiggle could those be the bad guys? there about as thin as one strand of hair but dont look like the planaria I am used to


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

My best guess with L.R. is internal parasites since he's skinny and also bloated. I think he needs something like General Cure or Jungle Labs Parasite Clear. I'm not sure Clout will take care of internal parasites but it will get rid of any external ones. And don't worry about freaking out about Blue. At this point, it's totally understandable. *hugs* 

It's possible the little white worms are nematodes. They sometimes show up when there's uneaten food in the tank and if the boys haven't been eating, there might be some food in there even if you get most of the uneaten food out. Clout should take care of them, according to their product description. Otherwise, water change and siphoning as many out as you can will get rid of them, the nasty things.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Alright thank you could blue be suffering from internal bacteria problem i hear it causes fading of their color ?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, it's really possible. That would explain him not eating too. Maracyn 1 and 2 combined would be the best treatment for that but if you can only find one, go for Maracyn 2. And if you can't find Maracyn 2, Erythromycin is the next best choice, I think.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I treated him with Maracyn II about 4 days ago is when the treatment ended all it did was make him worse... I could treat him again but do you think it would really help?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. How did he get worse, exactly? I know DarkMoon says sometimes it takes a while for the meds to kick in but I'm not sure. :/ I want to say it will help him so try it again but I'm also not 100% sure about that either.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Creat, 
So sorry to hear about your situation 
Are these bettas in their separate QT at the moment? 
The thing you removed from Cider, was it red, small (like an itty bitty red worm) and coming out of the mouth? Did it move?
And is there a Petsmart near you?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

He was fine (flaring eating normal color) up until the last few days of maracyn II then he lost his color and stopped eating.
And no they got sick in a divided tank so I have left them in and am treating the whole tank... 
And the thing was red but it wasnt moving...
And yes there is a petsmart but i prefer petco


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I hate Petsmart too. Their fish care is the worst of all the pet stores around (I have 3 chain pet stores within five minutes of my house) and at the one near me, the vast majority of the employees are cranky and rude. The only thing I like about Petsmart is that they carry fish medicines. 

Hmm. I think it's up to you, Creat, if you want to treat Blue with Maracyn-2 again. If you don't feel comfortable with the idea and you think it might do more harm than good, then let's see if we can find a different treatment. Otherwise, I'd say give it one more shot.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I am going to try the Clout like OFL suggested and maybe try to entice him to eat with some live food and see if it helps him at all


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

From reading the history and how it had greatly infected most (if not all) of your bettas, I strongly suspect they are infected with Camallanus parasites. I think it may be best to QT individually and then completely clean your divided tank as I think the larvae can take up to three months to manifest into the little suckers. These Camallanus have 30 day life cycle, so you will need to continue to treat the bettas weekly for that long. Many larvae can pass through in a single drop of fluid and they can cling to nets and easily pass from one end to the other easily. 

I asked if there is a Petsmart near you, I guess you could check if Petco has Intervet Safe Guard. I know you are waiting for Clout to arrive, but if your bettas really have Camallanus, Fenbendazole would be your best bet. 

May be one of the experts can correct me if I am wrong with this diagnosis.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Alright I think I will QT out Blue and L.R. which I have been thinking about for some time I will try this new med I have never heard nor seen it but I will look today. Do you think Clout will work similarly because it really took a hit on my wallet ordering it....
And thank you for the diagnosis and now I am worried I use a series of nets but I know I used this one on my females recently do you think it will harm them too should I treat that tank also? None are showing symptoms of anything yet.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Clout is supposed to be anti parasitic, but for some reasons a lot of fishkeepers did not have much luck if the culprits are Camallanus. The other option is Levamisole but I think some may be resistant to that as well as the worms just kept returning after a while, so far Fenbendazole is the most effective way to kill Camallanus once and for all. (DM, correct me if I am wrong)
I think the Safe Guard at Petsmart is $15 bucks or so. Call them up and see if they have it. If you get your hands on that, let me know, and I will look up the dosage for you.

Have you got Garlic Guard or fresh garlic at home?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

and I did a little reading but none of them started pooing a lot of white stringy things usually associated with it it is true that they have stopped eating.. gah im just so confused... but yes I have a garlic cloves from the store at home


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm really not sure I agree with the Camallanus. I was under the impression that you would see them sticking out from the fish's umm..."behind?" 

Camallanus: http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/154/

I'm still leaning towards scepticemia. It would explain the red streaks, and would explain why the maracyn 2 didn't work (stronger antibiotics are recommended for that). Or the parasites that OFL suggested were possible, though without navigating away from the page I could not say which post it was. 

I'm so sorry Creat. You've gotten alot of different ideas and I know it's got to be overwhelming to be dealing with all this. Sometimes it can be very difficult to diagnose our fish babies.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Maracyn 2 didnt work I'm going to throw Clout at them after dividing them and if anything else happens chase this Camallanus idea and honestly it wouldn't surprise me if they all had slightly different things...


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Dragonflie,
I agree the bettas have septicemia, but septicemia is a symptom and not a disease which could be a secondary infection caused by opportunistic bacteria and I have read somewhere that Camallanus can cause septicemia due to their "life style". You are also right that they will "hang out" on the vent but they are really really small and any movement of the fish, they will retreat back within and you can't see them.

I am sorry Creat, I was even more convinced because of Cider's photo. Just be extra careful while handling the fish and the tanks if that's what you have.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I will keep looking at them and their vent I want to spot them but if/when I do it will be a full frontal attack on the buggers


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

I hope you will see them (if they are the culprit) sooner rather than later, as this is quite time sensitive. I hope I am wrong and Clout will do the job as OFL suggested. 

Best of luck!


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thank you earthworm88 you were a major help and at least today I learned something I hope you keep on this thread your advice is great help 
And everyone else you have been very helpful and supportive


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Earthworm, you're the best when it comes to researching and finding info. :-D You are definitely a valuable asset to any thread you post on.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

That's very sweet of you both *blush*
I am eager to learn, and even more eager to help. But in this case, I hope I am wrong. 
Will check back tomorrow to see how things go, time for me to catch some zzzzz.

Cheers!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sleep well, Earthworm. 

Creat, I'm rooting for you and all your guys.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Just to be clear....I don't normally recommend medications......I only recommended Clout because Creat has tried everything and due to the fish having multi signs/symptoms....

Clout is one of the few products developed just for fish...It is STRONG...the last ditch type medication when everything else has failed kinda product....for both primary and secondary issues

Clout
4-[p-(dimethylamino)-)O-Phenylbenzylidene]-2,5-cyclohexadien-1-xylidene dimethylammonium chloride; dimethyl (2,2,2-trichloro-1-hydroxy-ehtel) phosphonate; 1,2-dimmethyl-5 nitromidazole

Nitromidazole, is an antibacterial/antiprotozoan in the metronidazole family to treat the secondary infection that they most likely have -Dimethylamino is malachite green-I think.....Dimethyl phosphonate-is for parasites-this include camallanus

I do agree that the red streaks are a sign of being septic-most likely Aeromonas being the most common pathogen for the secondary and nematodes infestation can also cause hemorrhage....

Good luck......I am sure you know this already...but keep the lights off since these medications can degrade in light, remove any carbon and make water changes before you use it and at any time the fish looks to be stressed in the medication....

It a good idea to have a second container of the Bettas tank water near by without medication to place them in-if the Bettas seems to be having a bad reaction.....

I don't like, use or normally recommend OTC medications-they are often misused, overused and can be dangerous for not just the fish-but to us and our environment for a host of reasons......Again, I don't normally recommend medication-but Creat has a special case and had tried everything.......


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Oh and OFL do you suggest that I keep adding epsom salt too? They still have the same 3tsp per gal dose. And I always have back up water I started doing that after I had a bad reaction in a fish once. And what do I do with medicated water I hate throwing it away whats be best thing to do with it?
Your a great help thank you


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, I would keep using the Epsom salt and for the medicated water...let it sit in the sun for 24 hours-covered with something clear like netting/wire- so nothing can drink it...that should kill/inactivate the active ingredients....


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## Here Fishy Fishy Fishy (Oct 29, 2010)

Creat,

I know that waiting for treatment to work can be unnerving... and sometimes, there are no good or clear answers.

Hang in there... you're doing a great job.


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## betta dude (May 22, 2011)

sorry about your bettas


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Alright guys its been 12 hrs, with the first does of Clout. At the beginning it turned the water a very deep blue but now its clear again... and none of them are acting healthier either but all survived the night so that is good...
and thank you betta dude


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It may take several days before you see any improvement.....good luck and keep us posted......


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Okay I will do another does of Clout today I will remove Cider and put him alone in a tank (which is what I did to Coal) because he looks like he is having a negative reaction the only reason I treated him was a precautionary deal. However I did find a collection of dead little worms floating around of a variety of species so i know the meds are working... and do you think it would be okay if I dosed the tank again before the 24hr mark sense I will be working late till 11 and they had the first does at about 8 last night? or should I want till after the 24hr mark?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Update: Blue has this finrot growth on his tail that is covering about 1/4 of it now compared to a little speck from yesterday the fin looks like its dying and the rim of the dead part is yellow ish.. I know this isnt real finrot I know its something else....


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

If its like 20 hours....I would make a 50% water change and re-dose.....

Any you should see lots of little critters dead...this is a pretty strong product....and along with this massive death-you also have massive decomp and ammonia can spike on you....If I had to choose between too early or too late to water change and re-dose...I would do it early....

When I used this products...many, many years ago.....I would do black out-I covered the tank with something dark to keep all light out-remove the filter totally-dependning on the species of fish I may add an airstone and every 24h I would make a 50% water change and re-dose daily for 3-5 days.....it is really light sensitive.....once the blue color was gone I viewed it as no longer active


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

OK, now that I'm awake.

What is the source of your changing water?
What water treatment do you use?
I see that we've used epsom, maracin-2, Clout. Any others?
What was the manufacture date on the maracin-2?
What are the current water parameters (include Gh,Kh if poss)?
What plants and other additives are normally in the tanks?

08-26-2011, 01:44 PM Poe dead, bloody red streak on 2? males.
Bloody streak is one of two things, subdermal damage or cat-scratch. Do you own a cat with claws?

I think this situation is far enough along that you need to check your fingers, around the cuticle and under the nail bed. Do you have any on-going itches like jock or athlete's foot. Do you have dandruff?
Is there black mold anywhere in the house?
Check your palms, creases on your fingers for little nodules that weren't there before.

Take all your nets and tools to the sink and stick em in a clean pot and run straight hot tap water over them immersed in it. Re-heat the water from time to time and if you're not on chlorinated water, add chlorine.

The swollen cyst on the side of Cyder's mouth has me concerned. Very rarely do people see an active strain of aquatic TB but since this would be as bad as it can get we have to assume as bad as it can get. 

Be prepared, if you're dealing with aquatic TB we're talking comforting the dying, taking care of the living until they die then throwing everything out. _Then No New Fish allowed for about a year _from time of infection.

There are only two common medications that will get aTB, neomycin and kanamycin. neomycin will not go internal on a fish and kanamycin will kill weakened fish. Lifeguard will also kill it, as will UV in the water column but neither targets it.

I'm not sure that what we're dealing with is aTB tho.

If the maracin-2 was out of date, over heated or just bad in general the thing we're hunting could also have become immune to it. Can you get Lifeguard. tri/triple-sulfa, some gallon jugs of distilled water with no added minerals, a couple more gallon jugs that only had water and something like a litter box to set them in so you can run the heater in a water bath that the jugs sit in? You mark the half gallon level on the jugs then cut the jugs off two inches higher and use them as hospice tanks settled in the pan of heater maintained water. 

All medications that get into the fish's flesh/bloodstream will be filtered through the kidney. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, salt, epsom salt all go through it as well. I think any possible cure at this point would have to rely on as much detoxification as possible. 

True distilled water should have a pH around 5.0 to 5.3. You can adjust this up with a very small amount of baking soda to 7.0 if you like, but keep in mind that the distilled water will also be very mild. The water will naturally have more room for oxygen in it, so aeration isn't a concern.

Dealing in half gallon volumes can be a little tedious on medications. I usually use a water bottle of known volume, you can also mix the meds in the water bottle then use a pyrex measuring cup (or other non-metal) to get the correct dose out.


So, distilled no-mineral-added water in 1/2 gal hospital "tanks" kept warm. Give them at least six hours of detox time before you begin medicating. Test the pH of the water before and after they use it, if there is no change your fish will likely die. After the detox change their water and add correct dose Triple-Sulfa and let them cook for dosage duration then change water after 24 hours. Water bottle pre-mix will be good for 60 hours or so if kept in a dark sock/box. You can get Triple-Sulfa from just about any veterinarian. Ten gallon 24 hour dose is 664mg Sodium Sulfathiazole 168mg Sodium Sulfamethazine 168mg Sodium Sulfacetamide. API manufactures boxes with ten packs inside, other manufacturers make bottles with measuring cap.

For those of you playing the home game... Triple-Sulfa is more important than any other antibiotic but it WILL take out your filter too.

Repeat dose at least one time, keep accurate track of infections by drawing or photo. TREAT ALL FISH AT LEAST TWO DOSE CYCLES even if they look healthy. They've all been exposed.

Your fish are too far gone to be treated with kanamycin and I sincerely don't suggest adding it to your arsenal at this time. 

Now... if you notice lesions on your hands or arms, or little nodules on your fingers that weren't there before you should have either a vet or a doctor look at them. With antibiotics humans are easily cured of aTB.

This is why I don't like divided tanks, they infect multiple fish and use large volumes of water. Its a great suggestion to only keep as many male betta as the number of tanks you can afford to operate.

aTB can be pretty scary, its something you can get in your eye, on your arms and under your fingernails. When you keep aquariums you should maintain vigilance of your own health in all ways. Even though we use filters to convert the "toxic" wastes the filtration doesn't do anything to protect against biological infection of parasite, fungus and bacteria.

Walmart will have Nitrile gloves both in the home-improvement and the automotive section of the store. Usually you only need to wear one on the hand that deals with pointy, abrasive or dirty stuff (moving ornaments, operating the siphon, cleaning the filter) but having them on hand is a good idea. They not only protect you from your fish, but protect your fish from all the things you might get on your hands such as pesticides, medical creams, surface application chemicals like polish oils or anti-fungals.

Erythromycin is not a gram-negative active anti-biotic. All sorts of information on the internet says it is and is dead wrong. Generally the gram negatives that it seems to have worked on can be killed with oxidation effect alone (lifeguard, high aeration). Using it when you're unsure often does nothing more than delay the actual treatment of your fish. Marycin-2 originally had a gram-negative active antibiotic but no longer does. I've used Erythromycin once, for open scratches caused by cats fishing the tank. It works great for exposed bacteria like fin-rot.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Don't freak out about TB......read this....

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73359


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks guys no I am fine.. and Blue died and guess what, freaking Cider jumped out and died to I had 2 fish left that were healthy now I have 1, just one fish god I feel like suck a screw up... I should probably just kill the last two and get it over with as mean as that is to say... but I am on the verge of giving up on my betta for a while if I cant keep them alive 
and for clearance even though he just died on me he didnt have a cyst it was a worm thing


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## Punki (Apr 30, 2011)

Creat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im so so sorry your having all of these problems. Id be an emotional wreck as well. Its not your fault though, Whatever they have is just so complex, you dont know for sure what your even battling, and accidents do happen. I know words cant comfort you enough but i really hope tomorrow is a better day for you and your fishies =[


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## Here Fishy Fishy Fishy (Oct 29, 2010)

OMG! Creat, I just don't know what to say. This sort of thing is every fish keeper's nightmare...

:*(


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

Creat, I am so sorry.  If it's any consolation...I truly empathize and understand how hard it must be. I had 5 at time time I lost mine...all in succession, and I never did figure out what happened. It was like dominos..I just lost them one by one, for no discernable reason that I could even narrow down. And it's why I took a long break from keeping any for over a year. 

Hang in there. Take strength from the knowledge that you are doing everything you can.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Creat, you are soooo not a screw-up. *pinches you for saying that* There are so many reasons why your fish could be sick, most of them that are beyond human control. I blame the poor conditions bettas are kept in at pet stores; it weakens their immune systems and if they are at the stores long enough, I sometimes wonder if their immune system ever recovers fully. 

You have done so much for your fish. You've been buying them medication you can't really afford, you've been taking such good care of them, you've been spending a lot of time on this forum seeking help. Is that something a screw-up would do? Absolutely not! It's something a loving and dedicated fish owner who is going through an unfair string of bad luck would do.

I'm so sorry your fish have been sick like this and believe me, I think we all understand how utterly frustrating it is. If you need to take some time away from bettas, we all understand but you hurry back because we'd miss you on the forum.

*big hug*


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah thanks guys... i dont know what I would do without you... last night I just cried so bad... I probably wont just disappear on you but... God I feel so horrible I hate feeling like I'm killing them all... the only thing keeping me from getting rid of them all is my current babies I just hope all my little ones survive... and as an update the sick ones left the unnamed one and L.R. and still the same they have their stress lines showing and are clamped up and bloated also floating at the surface.... I will does the tank with Clout again tonight but if they arent better by then honestly I will probably just take them out QT them like who was it thunderloon? said and break the tank down and start over with it.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

The only one left besides Coal who is sick is the little unnamed boy who hasnt been eating in a week... should I try garlic in his food would he want to eat that? she is still bloated and I am still treating him with Clout


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It wouldn't hurt to try the garlic....

I wouldn't treat with clout for more than 5 days...after 5 days..I would start a clean water treatment with limited water changes-no 100% only partials....lots of tannins and dim lit with good nutrition.......too much medications and they can get toxic and it is hard to tell if what you are seeing is disease related or side-effect of products used......

And like what everyone else is saying.......stuff happens from no fault of the hobbyist......we can only do so much....so don't give up.......

I would however, break everything down and let things air out and sun dry-toss everything inside the tanks except electronics...heater, filters, thermometers...etc.....toss decorations, substrate any fake plants etc....

Sorry for your loss.....don't give up.....


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thank OFL I did that to my tank for 2 days and just put it back together and put my last healthy male in... I will try that how do you suggest I give him garlic and how much should I feed and how often?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry Creat.  Life is just throwing a huge punch at you and your fishies right now. Hang in there. It WILL get better.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Get him to eat as much of the garlic as you can 3 times a day......mix small amount in his food....


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## Behati (Sep 4, 2011)

I'm not sure if this has been suggested but my bettas were displaying the same symptoms as yours are. Staying at the bottom, not eating, white stuff near his face. I found out it was Columnaris even though I swear it looked nothing like the pictures until it was too late. It's highly contagious which may explain the numerous deaths. As for not noticing until they're already lethargic, mine were just like that. They were completely fine then suddenly, 6 hours later he had patches in his tail, more white stringy cottony stuff and died shortly after. I wish for their best, I unfortunately caught it too late for my betta who died today :\

Columnaris may not rear it's ugly head at all, since it's an internal and external disease. It'd be wise to disinfect all your aquatic supplies with a low concentration of bleach then adding water conditioner/dechlorinator to make sure the bleach is gone.


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