# Please help, choosing female



## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I recently got this boy (I'll admit it was an impulse buy encouraged by my fiancé  ). I want to breed him since I really like his color and haven't seen one like him before. I would like to work on shortening his anal fin a bit.

I asked the breeder for a similar female (the first female below, not sure if they are related or not), but I feel she has too much red wash in her and I will end up with many reds. I also can't see her topline very well from the picture so I'm a little hesitant.

I found this second girl that I really like. I think her topline is pretty off but she has a nice 180 degree caudal. She's a copper-based black. But I don't know if I'll have a shot at getting offspring similar to the father.

Any tips, and opinions would be great!


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I would most definitely pick the second female, but I would message the seller about a sister that has a short anal. The father's anal isn't all that bad in length, but the female's anal is long as well. This will end up in long anal finned fry. It seems that a LOT of breeders (especially AB) are having long anal finned girls.


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> I would most definitely pick the second female, but I would message the seller about a sister that has a short anal. The father's anal isn't all that bad in length, but the female's anal is long as well. This will end up in long anal finned fry. It seems that a LOT of breeders (especially AB) are having long anal finned girls.


Thank you so much. I just asked him about that =] I noticed that too, many have long anal fins. I hope that it won't be difficult for him to breed with such long anal fin. I tried to breed a rosetail before and that was a big problem :-(


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh, yea. Rosetails aren't breedable. I found that out as well, but thankfully people on here talked me out of it before my attempt with my rosetail male.


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## Hail0788 (Feb 14, 2013)

I would go with the second one as well.


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> Oh, yea. Rosetails aren't breedable. I found that out as well, but thankfully people on here talked me out of it before my attempt with my rosetail male.


It's because of their fins that they are unbreedable? Like... is it a mechanical issue or a genetic issue?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

It's genetic. Another person on here tried breeding with rosetails and they turned out x-factor. Basically when you breed a rosetail, their fry will turn up as x-factor fry. Their scales are all uneven and their fins can be...well....rather ugly. This is what they can look like. 

I got permission from Chard to use his photos, which is why I also put his name and the site's url. xD


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Oh wow o.o I didn't know that's what you meant by X-factor. Thanks for explaining it! I'm glad I didn't get that male to breed afterall.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Yea. I'm really thankful for Chard's pictures. I didn't have them until today. X-factoring is really hard to understand unless given a really good example. I won't lie, I think after seeing these pics I get it more now that I thought I had before.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

X factor sucks, it can hide in the genes for many generations before popping back up. Female 2 is amazing by the way


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## Maddybelle (Sep 29, 2012)

I agree with everyone else - female #2 rocks! Her topline is actually great, and she'd be a great compliment to your male.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Female #2 is better than the first one. But she won't improve dorsal nor anal form. I suggest you be more patient and look for more balanced fins. Since the boy is a black copper, those 2 color should give you his colors. You could also work with other dark metallic or black drgn, if you don't mind a few variations.


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

*Third Option*

I have a third option (sorry for not including her at first, but I had to ask for a better pic ^^; )

It's hard to tell but I think she still has the same problem with the anal fin being too long... I put the other girl for better comparison. Which is better between those two girls?

Thank you guys so much, I'm really learning a lot! ^^ I'm a newbie with this whole betta genetics world


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

indjo said:


> Female #2 is better than the first one. But she won't improve dorsal nor anal form. I suggest you be more patient and look for more balanced fins. Since the boy is a black copper, those 2 color should give you his colors. You could also work with other dark metallic or black drgn, if you don't mind a few variations.


Sorry, do you mind pointing out what's the problem with his dorsal? ^^; Is it too long? I've never really known what to look for as far as the dorsal fin goes.

I think I will take your advice and wait =] Either way, I'm not in any hurry to breed him just yet.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

After looking at the male again, I can see the dorsal and anal forms needing some help. That shouldn't see any improvement until a couple of fry groups down the line. If you look at your male's anal, you can see the length and pointy parts. This isn't exactly _desirable_ in HMs. Nor is the anal, due to it not being perfectly rounded. He is a nice male, though. When working with bettas, no matter what you choose, you won't get what you're looking for in the first round of fry anyways. I mean, you _can_, but typically it takes a couple of generations.

I hope this is what Indjo was talking about. If not, they can always explain it better than I did.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

valen1014 said:


> I have a third option (sorry for not including her at first, but I had to ask for a better pic ^^; )
> 
> It's hard to tell but I think she still has the same problem with the anal fin being too long... I put the other girl for better comparison. Which is better between those two girls?
> 
> Thank you guys so much, I'm really learning a lot! ^^ I'm a newbie with this whole betta genetics world


She almost looks the exact same as number 2, lol.


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> She almost looks the exact same as number 2, lol.


Yeah I think they are sisters XDD lol 

So... softer edges, rounder dorsal... got it! :mrgreen: Yep! I'm not expecting to improve anything right away, if the first time I get anything similar to him I will be happy.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

About the rounded part, I meant caudal. /facepalm


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

valen1014 said:


> Sorry, do you mind pointing out what's the problem with his dorsal? ^^; Is it too long? I've never really known what to look for as far as the dorsal fin goes.
> 
> I think I will take your advice and wait =] Either way, I'm not in any hurry to breed him just yet.


+1 Hadoken

The dorsal should lean forward, preferably with very long front ray. Your boy's dorsal still leans back. Then his anal is a bit long and too "shaggy". You want equal fin lengths and smooth lining. Oh, anal is preferred leaning forward too. Other than that he has great form. He has wide ventrals, multiple caudal rays, and great top line (body).

You want a female with at least up right dorsal. Your choices has small dorsal with short front rays. See the caudal edges of your choices - you want pointy edges. And of course balanced general fin (most important). She doesn't have to have 8 rays. IMO 4 rays is good enough. In fact a 4 ray super delta would also work BUT make sure the fins are balanced and has pointy caudal edges.

Often it's impossible to get that perfect female and you would have to work for it. But at least get one with balanced fins. Create a "perfect" female so you can later easily buy new males when it's time to introduce new genes. You can also introduce DT to your line to lengthen the front dorsal rays.


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

indjo said:


> +1 Hadoken
> 
> The dorsal should lean forward, preferably with very long front ray. Your boy's dorsal still leans back. Then his anal is a bit long and too "shaggy". You want equal fin lengths and smooth lining. Oh, anal is preferred leaning forward too. Other than that he has great form. He has wide ventrals, multiple caudal rays, and great top line (body).
> 
> ...


Wow thank you so much. :shock: That was a great explanation!! I understood everything except why I'm looking for pointy edges in their caudal (like the kind of pointy a suntail would have?)


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

BY edge, I meant the top and bottom part of caudal where the vertical meets the curved. A HM is preferred to have a "D" shape caudal. So the top and bottom edges should have equally long rays, making it look pointy like a perfect "D". IME fin form is inherited more from the female. If you use pointy edged females, you will have same traits in fry, not 100% though - easier to improve. Since getting (buying) perfect females is harder than males, thus IMO it's best to concentrate on working to get perfect females.


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

indjo said:


> BY edge, I meant the top and bottom part of caudal where the vertical meets the curved. A HM is preferred to have a "D" shape caudal. So the top and bottom edges should have equally long rays, making it look pointy like a perfect "D". IME fin form is inherited more from the female. If you use pointy edged females, you will have same traits in fry, not 100% though - easier to improve. Since getting (buying) perfect females is harder than males, thus IMO it's best to concentrate on working to get perfect females.


 
Ooooh.... that makes a lot of sense. Thank you! :-D


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## valen1014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Not sure whether I'll be getting her or not (although she would bring me to enough females for a sorority muahaha :twisted.... But just for the sake of applying what I learned....

Topline - check!
Shorter(er) anal - check!
Caudal spread - check! (not sure how to count rays...)
Doral... doesn't lean back (check!) but could use stronger first ray?
Caudal D shape - check!

I guess I will go try to find reasons not to buy her now XD

*Edit: On second look... her anal fin is still a bit longer than the end of her caudal, and the caudal isn't as pointy as I though I guess ^^;

This was just a female (sister of the other 3 probably) that the seller sent me a pic of when I asked for shorter anal fin.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

The problem with looking at siblings with long anal fins, is that when you ask for a shorter one, you can only get one that is so short. If a majority of the females have long anal fins, then that is an over-all fry thing, not just the female. You can go with her and slowly work your way down. Or you can simply look at another seller. She really isn't bad. You'll never find the perfect fish. There's no such thing. You'll wear yourself out, but you can pick the best from your options. You can always work to creating your ideal fish, but you'll never find "perfect".


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## FishFriend9292 (Oct 14, 2012)

I would use the second one so you don't get red mixed in with genes.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

This female is much better than her sisters, though her dorsal could be better. Like HK said, you can't find a perfect female thus have to work for it. If her siblings mostly had long anals, she might produce more with long anals too. So, you just have to select the ones with the smallest anal

about rays, take a look at this thread 
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/breeding-betta-fish/branching-question-77609/#post775884


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