# 2 Betta deaths within 1 week



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

The way it went was like this:

I had an extra 5 gallon which I gave to my son who was settling into his own house with his GF. They already have a newly set up 15 gallon running with a honey gourami and some red cherry shrimp, 6 cherry barbs are going to go in it as well in the next month. This tank is fine, no water quality problems, cycled with 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and 5 Nitrate.

My son loves Bettas so this 5 gallon was going to allow him to fulfill that dream. My husband and I went to visit them, bringing the 5 gallon with us, along with some supplies for the tank. We all went to the LFS, they picked out a cute little Betta, we set up the tank, one was washing the rocks for the substrate, then rinsing them in dechlorinated water, two were building the table, one was assembling the filter (previously used and clean), placing cycled media in the media bag. Then we filled the tank with water, dechlorinated, started the filter, floated the bag with the Betta, acclimated him by removing some of the water, adding some tank water....

Betta went in the tank, he swam a little, then started hiding in the corner behind the moss ball (brought from my healthy tank at home). This Betta hid for the next 24 - 36 hours, never accepted food, then had an intestinal prolaps and they brought him back to the store. There they were told that it is most likely parasites, and were given an exchange.

They did an 80% water change before acclimating and adding this new Betta. He was a little livelier, however did not accept food either. They added a Nerite snail to the tank, because my son likes the look of a Nerite Snail. Everything looked to be going fine, yet when they got home this evening they found the Betta dead.

The water test came back fine with 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, and 5 Nitrate. They are using the Nutrafin liquid test kit. 

I am thinking that maybe the shipment of these Bettas may all be infected with parasites, and that this is why they don't survive. My son is going back to the LFS to exchange the Betta for a new Betta from a different supplier. This LFS seems to have different suppliers, since there are two separate areas where they keep shelves of Bettas. He is going to ask about this to make sure.

We got our Betta from this same LFS, and they have good reviews, so I feel comfortable my son getting another Betta from them. However, I would like to hear from any of you, if there is something that we may have missed, any thoughts on what went wrong, or why this is happening? :-(

Thanks for reading,
Netti


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

I would be weary of buying another betta from that shipment. Maybe their next shipment day? I had the same issue where my local petco got a shipment of Bettas that were all diseased and saw them lined up in the no sale section. The next shipment they had though was completely fine so I bought both of my bettas during that shipment. You could ask an employee when it comes in. That is just what I would do because I would not want to get your son's hopes down with another fish dying.


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

if you used a good dechlorinator and acclimated the fish properly, then I don't see what else to do. 

BUT...if both fish died, you cannot really bring another fish right away as it will probably suffer the same faith if it is some parasites that killed them because your tank is maybe contaminated now by what ever killed the two other fish.

You would have to desinfect the tank or wait like 2 months before adding any other fish.

Did they tell you what parasite it was?




Netti said:


> The way it went was like this:
> 
> I had an extra 5 gallon which I gave to my son who was settling into his own house with his GF. They already have a newly set up 15 gallon running with a honey gourami and some red cherry shrimp, 6 cherry barbs are going to go in it as well in the next month. This tank is fine, no water quality problems, cycled with 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and 5 Nitrate.
> 
> ...


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thank you for your reply Pocketmew! So you also think that the problem lies with this shipment of Bettas. That in a way is comforting to me. Somehow I started to second guess everything we did to set up the tank...

I really like your suggestion and will forward it to my son. He was feeling quite down that this second Betta died as well. 

Thank you for your reply as well, daniella3D! I've mentioned to my son that we could start the tank from scratch, wash everything with hot water and throw out the filter media, get fresh filter media (from my healthy tank). Your post confirmed this idea, and will urge him to go ahead and take the tank down again. 

I guess, very hot water is probably not enough to disinfect the tank dealing with the possibility of parasites. Should they use chlorine, or vinegar, what would be your recommendation?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

So, my son has already emptied the water and poured boiled water into the tank (yikes)....and some salt, told him to cool it down and to add vinegar since he has no chlorine at hand. He added 3 cups of vinegar.

The snail is sitting in a container with dechlorinated water, the filter is now running, the sponge and media will be thrown out and replaced (some cycled media from my tank and some new ceramic media to build up BB), the plants are sitting in salted tap water (I know plants don't handle salt very well, but the other option is to throw them out, I guess).

The plan is to let the tank run with this "dressing" for the night, and get it all cleaned up tomorrow. Does this sound like it would work?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

My overall opinion is that it's unlikely that two fish that appear completely healthy in the store would both die of parasites within 24-26 hours of being brought home. It's more likely that something in the tank/environment is causing a problem.

If I had this issue, here's what I would do. By using a process like this, it may help you determine what's causing the problem. The overall plan is to first add a fish, then over time, add the plants and filter back in. This may allow you to determine the cause of the problem..... My apologies for presenting this via very basic steps, but sometimes, less experienced people read these threads:

(1) Temporarily store the plants, gravel, filter and media in a bucket of dechlorinated water. You can add them later, once you've determined that the fish is OK.

(2) Rinse out the tank thoroughly. (Make sure that all traces of vinegar and salt are gone.) Refill the tank approximately halfway. (About 2.5 gal.) Add 1.5 times the normal amount of conditioner. Do not add ANYTHING to the tank except water!

(3) Go to the store. Ask them if any of the other bettas from this shipment have had ANY health problems. If the answer is "no," then pick out another betta. (If the answer is "yes," request a refund and go elsewhere.)

(4) Once the fish is home, check the temperature of the tank to be sure it's within the 76-82F range. Float the cup in the tank for at 15-20 min to acclimate the temp. While he's floating, *test the ammonia level in the cup.* If there is any ammonia and if you had a conditioner that neutralizes ammonia (such as Seachem Prime, etc), add a drop to the cup. 

(5) Using a turkey baster or tablespoon, add about 1/4 ounce (1-2 tablespoons) of new tank water to the cup. Let him float for another 10 min. 

(6) Repeat Step 5 for at least an hour. If he looks stressed, drape the back and sides of the tank with a towel, as darkness has a calming effect on them. Then, after at least an hour has passed, remove most of the water from the cup, then gently tilt the cup into the tank and let him swim out.

Since there is nothing in the tank except him and you've given him plenty of time to acclimate, hopefully, he'll be OK. There's no reason to add the plants, filter, media immediately. He should be fine for a day or two in 2.5 gal of water. If you're concerned about the buildup of wastes, do a partial water change using 1.5 times the regular amount of conditioner.

Once you know he's OK, then rinse the plants with dechlorinated water and put them back into the tank. Wait a day or two, then do the same with the filter.

By introducing the fish, plants and filter at different times, you should be able to see quickly if a problem begins to develop and you'll know exactly what's causing it....

Good luck! Keep us updated.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thank you so much for your response LittleBlueFishlets. This sounds like a very good way to try the next Betta. I've sent my son the address of this thread and told him about your reply. 
I will keep you all updated, you've been such a great help, thank you!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Hello everybody,
I am writing from my cell and hope it will post alright. This morning my son and his GF worked hard to get the tank cleaned up. He told me there was a lot of cloudiness at the bottom of the tank. During the night they left the filter running to get it treated as well. The tank has been then left running with generously dechlorinated water. At the LFS they talked in detail about what has happened and their preparations for a new betta. The new Betta has now been carefully acclimated and there are no plants in the tank and no decor. The filter is running only to move the water but there is no media in it yet. So far...so good!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Sorry, it seems I misunderstood, the Betta is being acclimated right this moment. So after the soak treatment over night, the thorough cleansing of the tank and then adding the dechlorinated water to the tank, what is in the tank right now is the gravel, the snail, and the floating bag with the Betta. 

A new bit of information also is the pH difference between the store and my son's tank. At the store (10 minutes drive away) the tanks pH is at 7, and my son's tank was at first at 6.5, but testing now revealed it is actually sitting at 6.
So they are going to take their time acclimating this one. Maybe that rather big pH difference is what is to blame for what happened with the other two? We only acclimated the other two for 15 min. or so!!!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Here he is still being acclimated:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

oops, forgot to hang it on


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Here he is hours later, he is active, and swimming the whole tank, checking out everything:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

There was a bit of a glitch with a bacteria bloom due to my son getting the dechlorinator Nutrafin Aqua Plus, mixed up with the Nutrafin Cycle bottle. The Betta started to look droopy, so my son eventually figured out his mistake. Large water change and properly dechlorinating it resulted in a much happier Betta. and the bottle of Cycle was thrown away! 

My son just left here with a whole bunch of supplies, including a bottle of Prime dechlorinator, and a new little baggie of cycled media. In that baggie there also is a little crushed coral to bring the pH up gently, hopefully around 6.5.

I also gave him a piece of moss covered mopani wood from my Betta tank, it will help give it that lovely tea colour that makes everything look more golden in the tank, and a large-ish plant of Anubia. 

This Betta is doing wonderful, and we all hope it will stay this way. This afternoon the filter was turned on for the first time (still without media), the Betta thought it was great fun and seemed to enjoy the current it created.

I can't wait for more pictures once they add the media and the mopani wood. This is from this afternoon after the big water change with dechlorinated water:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

New problem: the heater broke. My son had to go out and buy a new heater yesterday afternoon, before coming over to pick up the new supplies here. I have no idea why they seem to have such difficulties with this tank, it's like whatever can go wrong is going wrong! At least there aren't any leaks (knock on wood)!

So here is the tank with the moss covered mopani wood, and the larger anubia.
The second picture shows both the nerite snail and the betta checking out the new "furniture". His eyes are still a little cloudy, one of the other Bettas had it too. I'm hoping that the better conditioner may help. Oh, and there is 0 ammonia, pH at 6.8.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

He`s doing well, swimming and exploring, I`m told. As soon as my son sends me some pictures I will post some here. They were holding off naming him, but are now saying that it is time to decide on a name for him. I tentatively suggested `Superman`!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Finally we can breathe easier, he looks pretty good, his eyes have cleared up, he had blood worms for dinner today.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I'm now thinking that the other dechlorinator (Nutrafin Aqua Plus) may have been a bad batch, either that, or my son had gotten the two different bottles (Cycle) mixed up at other water changes as well and the other Bettas eventually died from the chlorine? 

Would it be OK to start adding the other plants back?


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## JessiesGill (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm glad the new boy is doing well. I have a question about that heater. Does it have a minimum water line marking somewhere, and is the water at or above it? I have a different brand, and mine must be submerged above the point where the tube meets the top section, about halfway up the top section. I know different brands function differently, so no offense meant here. 

He's a really pretty boy. I wonder if the red on his body is going to spread as he ages.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

No no, no offense taken, thank you for your reply and pointing out the heater issue. I've sent my son and his GF a message about it. 

I really like his colouring too, there also seems to be a hint of blue on his body, so it will be interesting to see how he changes.


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

Is it an impression or he's a bit bloated? hard to see that that's my impression from these photos.


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah I thought he looked bloated as well. But I dunno if its just weird angle tricks. When you look at him is his belly more like










Or 









(or close to that)?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I live 45 min. away from their home, but I looked back at those pics and must agree with you.....his belly does look bloated! :shock:

Going to ask them to have a look at it. Here I was thinking they were finally going to have a positive experience.


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

I feel so bad that issues keep arising ;n;. Where are they getting these fishies from? He didn't look all that healthy to begin with, with the clamped fins and cloudy eyes...If his belly is swollen it could be dropsy...


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## JessiesGill (Feb 17, 2014)

You said his last meal was bloodworms. All he needs is a high quality pellet for good nutrition. New Life Spectrum and Omega One are the top 2 recommended here. They are complete, easily digested, and not known to cause bloating or constipation.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I hear what you're saying, but no, the place is known to be very good! We got our Betta Malcolm from there as well, and we had no problems whatsoever.

The cloudy eyes appeared after being in the care of my son. I strongly suspect that there is something wonky with the conditioner they've used before. Things improved over night, after using Prime. 

Hopefully he hasn't got any organ damage, and hopefully it is a case of constipation. Is it Daphnia that is supposed to help after the three days of fasting? There seem to be differences in opinion whether to use peas or not.

Seeing his belly also again makes me think of internal parasites, that's what we suspected with the first Betta....ugh, I feel like an emotional yoyo right now! :|


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Yes, Jessiesgill, the Betta has been eating New Life Spectrum Betta Pellets. I think this was the first time he'd received bloodworms!


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## JessiesGill (Feb 17, 2014)

That's good. Maybe he got over zealous with the worms and pigged out. Hopefully that's all it is, and it passes quickly. No more candy for this boy. 

Yes, daphnia is recommended for constipation. It's a natural food for them. Prune juice for bettas.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

He'd eaten only 2 bloodworms, there was a third that disappeared to the bottom of the tank, so my son had told me. Maybe the Betta found it later and ate that one as well.

I feel so bad, I've given them this tank thinking it would be fun for them. They are both still University students, while also holding jobs, paying a mortgage and this little Betta tank seems to pull money out of their pockets. I've been helping with getting supplies, but I think I will offer to set up a tank here in my home and try to get this Betta healthy for them. I only work in the mornings and have a lot more time than they do....so if we need to medicate I can do it here!


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

I am a student too, so I know how it feels..I am spending way too much money on my babies. See if they can take a clearer picture of his tummy, it very well could be constipation/overeating. I'm looking at my male right now with a potbelly since my 4yr old decided to dump some food in his tank while I was away. If he is still active and there aren't any open wounds I wouldn't be too quick to pull out the medication. Sometimes they can do more harm than good...


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Yes Pocketmew, you're right, we would only medicate if it is necessary. I too am a believer to try it first with good water conditions before reaching for chemicals. 

I'm still torn between whether there is something wrong with the water, was it the water additives, or are the Bettas sick from the store. My son should do a full test on the tank tonight, he already promised me to take a picture of the Betta's belly when he gets home, I will then post it all here.

And, good luck with your pot-bellied Betta as well!


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

Hmm if you are really that uncertain about the water quality, try doing a full water change+scrub. Then add the water and be meticulous on the prime measurement. I like to add prime and stress coat +. If all of the parameters are good you don't have to add anything else. 

Here are some tips on getting rid of parasites that might be on their tank still http://www.bestfish.com/tips/100699.html

I've noticed even really well kept stores sometimes don't take care of their bettas..My petco is really clean and takes excellent care of all of their animals...except some weeks completely neglect the bettas.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

It's not good news, first my son sent me these 4 pics, we were still thinking it's just constipation:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

next two:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

So I suggested to do a WC since the eyes started to look cloudy again, then my son sent me this pic:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

My heart just dropped, he looks like he started pine-coning....what on earth is going on with this tank?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

one more:


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah that does look like pineconing. I was afraid of that because my betta who is constipated doesn't have -that- big of a belly only a little tiny pudge. I haven't seen anyone successfully treat their fish for dropsy, they usually end up having to euthanize them....  

Maybe you guys should move him to a quarantine tank/bucket and use medication (if you wish to try to treat him); and do a full scrubdown of the tank. Use one of the methods here http://www.bestfish.com/tips/100699.html 

I would probably use the chlorine method because this keeps happening to you guys. If you do that method though you have to keep checking to make sure all of the residue is gone. And you have to douse everything including the filter and heater. The plants will probably have to be tossed (ugh...). You could also perhaps look on craigslist or ebay for a cheap used tank if you don't want to deal with that one anymore.

(I'd also go to your LFS and talk to them about your issues.)


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes I would really desinfect this tank and start from scratch with a clean tank, new plants and nothing that belong to the previous fish left undesinfected. Nets, tools, everything must be desinfected.

Don't keep any plants, just throw them. Decoration must be also desinfected, and I would replace the gravel and throw this one in the garbage.

You can use bleach and rinse it well, then use a lot of Prime and let it soad for a while to remove any trace of javel left, then change 100% of the water and treat with Prime.

Prime is really good to remove the left over from bleach. I use bleach to clean my micron filter in my Magnum HOT filter because that's how they recommand doing it. After soaking in 1/3 javel and 2/3 water for a day I rinse it well then put a full cap of Prime and let it soak for an hour, then I put it back in the filter and it's safe.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks for your reply Pocketmew. So, what they ended up doing is bringing the Betta back to the store, they say they will try to make him better, and they were given store credit.

This may sound horrible, but there are some Zebra Danios available to them through the University, and they will test the tank on those. If that does not show any success either, they will give the tank back to me, and I will do the sterilizing of the tank, setting it back up and trying it out from the bare scratch!

They still have their 15 gallon tank that is running without any problems with 1 honey gourami and 6 Harlequin Rasboras, so they know it is not anything that they are doing wrong.

Thanks so much to all of you, this site is absolutely amazing, what an awesome online community! I will keep you in the loop regarding this tank! 

Netti


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thank you daniella3d! I think that's exactly what I will be doing should the tank come back to me!


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

Hello, I am the son of Netti. Sadly, currently I am the betta killer 

Well, we are frustrated with the situation (of course) and I am quite sad as the current fish (Well, pet store they would try to fix him with aquarium/epsom salts and call if he recovers) was quite personable. I was able to play with him, he would come to my voice, and etc.

I asked the pet store guy and he said that they had no problems with any of the other fish, so it had to be something we're doing. I took the store credit they offered (will give it back if they fix our poor fishy), but need a break from killing fish (it's hard work after all!). 

The zebra danios we'll try in the tank will hopefully survive, dictating that it is some sort of... curse?

Thanks to everyone here (especially my mum) for helping me out as much as possible, despite the most probably outcome.

If you're wondering, my avatar is currently of when we first got this fish. Hopefully it'll give him some good luck while at the pet store.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

Aww, you're not a killer. Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. It really sounds like you were doing everything right.


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

I agree it DOES sound like you were doing everything right. Its just really unfortunate and seems like there is some lingering parasite/bacteria hanging tight to your tank @[email protected] 

I recently lost my lovely female baby betta due to my 4 year old getting a hold of her and putting her in the big tank with the male =n= Her passing still really stings because she also came whenever I wiggled my finger in the tank and was really friendly and cute. 

Hopefully they fix your fishie. I don't blame you for taking a break. Took me about 2 weeks before I could think about getting another baby.


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

Yeah hopefully the danios we use will survive proving it's not the tank. If they die, maybe we'll use a bleach cleaner or something...


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I will take the tank then Bloodfire, I'll get you a 10 gallon...or the 8.5 gallon I saw on special, and after I sanitized the 5 gallon I have an excuse for setting up a Betta tank for your brother! :-D


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

I would actually advise using neon tetras to test the tank if you can. They are much more sensitive to anything wonky than danios are, at least in my experience. You'll get much quicker results, and you'll also maybe be able to save the tetras because they'll show any signs of distress very quickly instead of it building up in the danios until they're beyond saving. I had some problems with one of my tanks a few months back, and everyone advised me that neons were the best "test" fish. 

Luckily, I had resolved my problem and they lived and are still with me very happily


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thank you for your reply Givemethatfish, the idea with the neon tetras is not bad. 

However there has been a new development. My son went to see his Betta at the pet shop and the Betta was still alive, not having gotten any worse. They were only treating him with aquarium salt, and believe that he must have some kind of infection. Bacterial? Viral? ???

So my son called me from the car, he and his GF already had the Betta with them in a bag to try and treat him with Epsom salts at home. There was a thread I've read a while ago regarding the concentration and luckily I remembered it to pass on that information to Bloodfire (my son). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I remembered was 1 tsp Epsom salt per gallon of dechlorinated water. The concentration can be raised up to 3 tsp Epsom salt per gallon. 
Maximum treatment time 2 weeks, is that right?

Now we also need your help to decide what temperature would be best for him during this treatment. Warm water is usually best to help a betta get better, but should it be a bacterial infection keeping the water not so warm would slow down the progression of the infection and give the treatment more time to work. 

Should they also add any antibiotics? If so, which one? I've never had to treat my fish with Antibiotics and would love to hear what you think is best.

They plan on keeping the Betta in a container, but are still undecided whether to float the container in the tank to ensure he is warm, or to put the container in the warmer computer room, where the water would only get to room temperature.

That's all I know for now, the plan is for me to post things since my son does not have that much time available to him working and attending University courses.
Thanks for reading,
Netti


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

This is the Betta still in the bag from the shop today:


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

That is the correct info about epsom salts dosage. I will let someone with more knowledge chime in about antibiotics. Good luck!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks givemethatfish! <3


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Betta in Epsom Salt:


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

He has explored the container, and is now patrolling it occasionally. He's a fighter! He still comes to my voice when I speak, but when I put my finger on the jar he gets scared, so I stopped doing that.

He is still pine-coning, but not any worse than yesterday. I'll post something I post on my fb newsfeed to my friends:

"Got my fishy back from the pet shop... not healthy yet, but he is being treated with epsom salt by us. Pet shop guy thinks he will make it because he is too active for a sick fish that has given up!!! You should have seen it when I went to the pet shop... Brought in my tank water to test (he wanted to double check our tank water) and it was good, so he said we can treat him at home. When I asked to see him, he brought me to his sick fish room, and gave me the jar to look at him. As soon as I started speaking he came right to that side of the jar! Really bad week, but hopefully it'll have a good finish! Come on buddy, you can make it!"


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Not sure if his tummy has shrunk a bit, his pine-coning is still present however:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

These two are from last night, just to compare with the two pics above:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Would it help to make him flare? I was going to suggest it to bloodfire, but wasn't sure if that is a good idea should it be a bacterial infection and his organs may be hurting??? :-(


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

They tried making him flare, but he won't. He is looking worse this afternoon!


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Dropsy is a symptom, in which the internal organs (especially the kidneys) can't eliminate fluids and wastes quickly enough. The result is that the fish bloats up and pinecones. The success in treating it depends on what's causing the problem, and whether you can treat the underlying condition in time. 

How much Epsom salt are you using? Since he's pineconing, I would increase the Epsom salt amount by 0.5 teaspoons every 12-24 hours, until a maximum dosage of 3 teaspoons/gal is reached. 

He's in a 5 gal tank, right? If so, here is a plan you can follow: 
 Day 1 (hour 0) - Start at an initial dosage of 1 teaspoon Epsom salt per gallon. 
(Total dosage 1 tsp/gal)
 Day 2 (hour 24) - Put some tank water into a cup. Stir in 0.5 teaspoons Epsom salt per gallon of tank water. (ie: For a 5 gal tank, stir in 2.5 teaspoons.) When the salt is dissolved, pour the solution into the tank.
(Total dosage 1.5 tsp/gal) 
 Hour 36 - Repeat the above step.
(Total dosage 2 tsp/gal)
 Day 3 (hour 48) - Prepare a "treatment solution" by stirring 3 teaspoons Epsom salt per gallon of water. Be sure to use conditioner! Use this treatment solution to do a 50% water change.
(Total dosage 2.5 tsp/gal)
 Day 4 - Put some tank water into a cup. Stir in 0.5 teaspoons Epsom salt per gallon of tank water. Pour the solution into the tank.
(Total dosage 3 tsp/gal) 
 Every other day from here on, prepare the "treatment solution" of 3 teaspoon Epsom salt per gallon. Use this to do a 50% water change.

How quickly did he bloat/pinecone? If it happened quickly, this would indicate a bacterial infection, more than a parasitical one. There are two types of bacteria that can cause internal bacterial infections: 
 Aerobic bacteria - For these, I recommend Kanaplex (kanamycin sulfate). 
 Anaerobic bacteria - For these, I recommend metronidazole.

You CAN use both Kanaplex and metronidazole simultaneously. This would treat internal bacteria, regardless of whether it was aerobic or anaerobic.

My suggestion would be to use the Epsom salt, as per the directions above, AND also add a Kanaplex / Metronidazole combination. 

In most cases, once they start to pinecone, it often indicates a severe infection. BUT since he's still active and fighting, I would try to help him by using the Epsom salt, Kanaplex and metronidazole.....

Keep us updated....


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Hi LittleBlueFishlets, and thank you for your reply.

At the moment he is in a little jar as in one of the pictures above. They've been doing water changes and increased the Epsom Salts from 1 tsp/gallon to 2 tsp/gallon. His condition is worsening though nonetheless. At this time we do suspect bacterial. 

I was reading one of the other threads regarding treatment, and have just a little while ago found the same treatment recommendation as you posted here. However, my son's GF thinks it may already be too late to try these medications. Since they've just increased the epsom salt saturation this morning, we decided to see if it makes any difference at all, and if not that it is probably time to euthanize. 

There is a thread from today about euthanasia in this forum, so I recommended it to my son and his GF. 

Thank you all so much for your help, I will keep you posted!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

This is the report I got tonight at around 8:30 PM: the Betta started swimming again, he's still bloated though, but as long as he is still fighting, I guess those two will give him his chance. 

Another water change will be done tonight, leaving the epsom salt concentration at 1.5 tsp/gallon, and the next increase will be done tomorrow morning at hour 36. 

His humans are working very hard as you can see. The meds aren't available in their province, so I will be making a trip over to get the meds and bring these to them, if they decide that it looks like it could make a difference. Hopefully I can find the two meds you recommended, otherwise I will see if I can get Triple Sulfa. Would that be a good alternative?

Thanks,
Netti


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

Just to give an update. It's 10:25 pm. He is still swimming up to get air, but has started to become more lethargic. My gf said she put a mirror up agaisnt it while I was at work today, and he wouldn't flair. When I came home I tried to put a mirror up against the jar and he would swim towards it but wouldn't flair up at all.

So I started talking to him (with no mirror). When I talk to him, he seems to try his hardest to flair up. His top fin goes up to show off some colour. Boy what a fighter he is! I noticed some floating white wisps in the jar, and assume it is fish poop. I tried to check his underbelly to check for that tell-tale sign of that parasite... Can't remember the name of it, but he doesnt have red under there.

Is the fish waste supposed to be a clear-ish white? I can't quite get a picture of it, because of the nature of the colour.

Maybe it's his mucous/slime coat? Im not sure.

Well, I await some good-natured advice!

I'm quite impressed with this fish, I must say.


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

Well, I can't take pics of what I saw, as they are no longer attached, but he just had some yellowish-whiteish wispy things come out of him. I'm starting to assume it's parasites. I'm gonna try to medicate him tomorrow (if he is still fighting tomorrow, I'll treat him... if not... I'll euthanize him...).

I really want to save this guy. He seems scared, but he seems to really want to live. I put the end of the siphon in his jar to see what he does, and he totally swam away from it (quicker than I thought he would), so although I doubt he would have escaped a predator, he definitely would have tried.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

picture from the bottom:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

You can see the little bit of stringy poops at the bottom of the glass as well as still coming from the Betta!


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

During the night his jar was covered with a towel in order to make it nice and dark for him to rest. I come in the room this morning, take off the towel, and he's swimming around the jar quite vigorously. He is still pine-coning, but he is more energetic than yesterday. His top fin is up when he is resting, but when he goes up for air and goes back down his top fin goes back down for a bit, then goes up when I guess he is less exhausted from the climb to the top of the jar. 

That's the update!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Posting the pics my son just sent:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

OK, we have meds. Sadly they did not have Kanaplex, they did have the Metronidazole, what we picked up instead was API Triple Sulfa and API General Cure. The store guys actually helped by checking online if those two can be used in combination, and found out that they could.

I can't remember exactly why I decided to buy the General Cure instead of the Metronidazole, and hope I did not mess that up!? 

The plan is to put the Betta back into the 5 gallon, everything removed from it. Bare bottom tank, no plants, no decor, low water level.

The filter will be running, but only with the sponge, the media will be thrown out. 

In the 5 gallon, even if not filled to the top, the ammonia will not be such a great issue as it is in that little jar. 

The General Cure meds can also be used to soak his food, to help get to any internal parasites. The question is, is it a good idea to try and feed him anything just yet? :?:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

he's still hanging on strong:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Are you all still interested in seeing the progression to hopefully, this Betta's recovery? Here is a picture from this morning, he is kind of flaring at his reflection in the glass, and I think his belly has shrunk a teensy bit compared to the pictures from the night before. The mug was placed inside the tank to give him a place to rest closer to the surface.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

And this was taken 5 or 6 hours later. My son thinks his pine coning is looking less severe:


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## Pocketmew (Mar 25, 2014)

I am still keeping up with this! I really really want to see how it goes, haven't seen someone cure a betta from dropsy yet... He does look better than before though..


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks Pocketmew. 

So, the Betta has now been medicated for 24 hours. This is his latest picture. It's more close-up and you can see the pine-coning quite well. 

My son says it does look better than before, the question is, has the medication already started to take effect, or is the Epsom Salt drawing out the liquid? The Betta seems to tolerate the Epsom Salt and the medication well, so there is at least that. 

The temperature in the tank had dropped to around 76 F, and he had become lethargic, so my son increased the heater somewhat to get the temperature to go up to around 78F. We are thinking the cooler temperature will slow down the bacterial growth (if the problem is bacterial) and give the medication more time to work.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

This is from this morning:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

He has been breathing a little heavier since yesterday, and is a little lethargic as well. A water change was perfomed yesterday, he is still being treated with Epsom salt (I will ask them later but I think he's at 2.5 tsp per gallon) and one both meds, the anti-parasitic (API General Cure) and the anti-bacterial (API Triple Sulfa). My son just told me they are not yet using full strength on these.

I hope we are doing things correctly. I find the Betta's belly is looking a little better yet again, still pine coning though!


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

His pine coning has receded on his sides, but his top still looks spikey (except for a 'bald spot' on his head... it's smooth there... looks kinda like an old man's bald spot ring, panicked a little thinking he lost his scales, but my gf told me that is not likely to be the case).

So I am following the meds instructions, and did a 25% water change today, increasing the overall medical doseage of the tank. He seemed to like the water change, as he swam around the tank as if he was exploring his territory. Now he is resting on the bottom of the tank, gasping slowly.

I tried the fish net thing to see if he struggles, and I haven't seen him swim this fast in a while! He wanted nothing to do with the net!

Still won't eat, tried to soak a pellet and feed it to him, and at first he want for it, but then he went back to the bottom and decided not to.

I was happy today as when I spoke he came to my side of the tank again! He hasn't done that in what feels like ages! 

He was at 2.5tsp per gallon, but I modified it down to around 2tsp of epsom salts per gallon. Thought it may help him out a bit, or at least let us see some progress/regress.

If anyone has any thoughts to share, I would be delighted to hear them, as I am quite unsure of what I am doing other than following med-instructions and trying to be there for him...

So if anyone has any ideas/suggestions/advice/comments/concerns/experience to lend, by all means!

PS. His colours are better too. He isn't as nice as when he seemed happiest, but he is still brighter coloured than when we got him from the LFS.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I guess some people are asking why to prolong the inevitable. Well, this Betta is fighting for his life, and he seems to have a strong will to live. My son is willing to put in the work and the money to give him the chance, but he's also prepared to do what needs to be done if the betta gives up. 

The betta is still swimming, his breathing has improved, his pine coning too has improved, so there is some hope, at least for now! 
A picture from this morning:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

So, this evening the meds were increased again. I guess a repeat treatment is necessary, but it seems to be unclear, whether to take out all the water and start from scratch. If anyone knows please tell us if that is correct.

The Betta reacted with heavier breathing but we are going to let him try to acclimate to it and check again in 10 minutes. Meanwhile the tank is draped with a towel to keep him calm.

Here are some pics to show his condition as of tonight:


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

He was euthanized this evening. He did not look too good this morning, and by this evening he was going sideways. 

I'm not sure if it is going to work, but I will try to post a video of testing him, if he tries to get away from the net:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvf6s8esp623e1y/20140508_210213.mp4


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

What I sent my friends:

"Well, I tried to give my fish a last meal... but he was so tired that he couldn't even eat. He didn't fight the fish net when I put him in the container. And when I euthanized him, I may have been super sad, but it was his time. He seemed to be getting better, up until today. Today, he stopped fighting to live. I helped to end his suffering. I put him in the compost so that he may bring new life to the world. R.I.P. Buddy/Kenshin."

I know many of you would have euthanized him sooner. I made a deal with him that as long as he was willing to fight to live, I would fight to cure him. I feel I kept that promise. Just this morning, when I put the fish net in the water, if I brought it anywhere close to him he would DASH to the other side of the aquarium. 

I fought for him as long as he was willing to fight for himself. As long as he was fighting to live, I fought to cure him. I think he ended up having irreversible organ damage, or something similar. I used a hammer to crush his head to make it instantaneous.

His blood was red, so at least I know he didn't have a severe case of sepsis (I'd hope not after how much anti-bacterial was used).

In the end he struggled when I poured out half the cup, then I spoke with him a bit, kind of apologizing for not helping sooner (I know he didn't understand me, but considering he could recognize my voice since the beginning...). Then when I went to pour it out, I wanted to pour it out slowly so he didnt come out in a gush, but he didnt fight at all, I had to control the pour so he didnt come out sooner than I wanted.


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## Kithy (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm sorry about your loss. You gave him one heck of a fight and he did the best he could. Dropsy is so hard to come back from.


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm so sorry.  You did everything you could and gave him a loving home, no matter how long it was. SIP Buddy/Kenshin


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

In order to cleanse my equipment, so far what has been accomplished is the gravel was boiled for an hour, then it was let to sit in chlorinated water for a few days, then I baked it at 400 fahrenheit (about 200 celcius) for an hour.

Anything else I should do for my gravel? I think any parasites/eggs should be murdered from that bout of heat...


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I've picked up a brand new tank for another try! I'd recommend for you to not add anything to the tank at all and use it as a QT for the new Betta first. Hopefully this will make a difference, when everything is new, cleaned, and nothing from the previous tank is used to set it up for now!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Wish us luck, if there are any problems we'll open another thread, this one's getting quite big!


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

A desinfected tank is as goos as new. Boiling the gravel for that long should have killed everything, so no need for the oven. I think if there is anything alive on that gravel that would be proof that there is live on the sun 

The real deal is to desinfect the tank well and not share any net or equipment that was used for the previous fish without desinfecting it first.

Be carefull with epoxy coated gravel because I have read that hot water will degrade the epoxy, not sure if this is true. Worse that can happen if this is the case then you will just end up with regular gravel with no more epoxy on it, so no big deal.


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

I'm studying to be a biochemist, so I must correct you on one thing: bacteria can grow in many extreme environments, and some can resolve an endospore stage that can resist extremely high heat.

Fortunately these bacteria are normally not pathogenic.

Furthermore there are protozoans that thrive in high temperatures as well. These thermophiles are a real pain to get rid of (unless you use high salt saline solution, with few exceptions).

Anyway, that's just my crazy side shining through.

It was already oven-ated, so I'm hoping it's totally detoxified. And it's a gravel made from riverstones, so no epoxy. As such, they should be fairly solid.

I just finished rinsing that new (hopefully un-cursed) aquarium about a gazillion times with hot and cold water, as well as conditioned water. I did the same for filter and thermometer (well, the filter was only rinsed in conditioned water, to preserve the bacteria that it apparently has pre-applied in the foam filter).

I'm gonna let it run overnight and do a water test and water change tomorrow. I doubled the amount of conditioner to help remove any trace chemicals I may have missed (apparently Prime is really good for that, we'll see).


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I haven't been monitoring this thread lately. I'm sorry that your Betta didn't make it. By the time dropsy occurs, it often indicates that the internal organs have begun to fail. This makes treatment very difficult. 

(Note: I do NOT believe that your Betta had the disease that I am about to describe. He didn't display any of the symptoms. The information that follows is being provided simply because I think you'll find it interesting from a biochemistry/microbiology perspective....)

Among common aquatic pathogens, one of the most troublesome is _Mycobacterium spp._ 

It is commonly referred to as "Fish TB," but it is NOT tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is a disease that affects people, and is caused specifically by _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_. This specific bacteria, _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_, does not cause disease in fish.

There are several (other) types of _Mycobacterium _that DO affect fish. As a group, they're called “atypical mycobacteriosis," and all fish are susceptible to them (to one degree or another). It results in a chronic and progressive disease, so it's known as a 'wasting disease.' The fish have poor overall condition, and varied non-specific symptoms. Since the symptoms and signs can vary widely and come on gradually, the owner may not realize the fish is infected for a period of time. 

_Mycobacterium_ thrives in warm water temperatures that have low dissolved oxygen levels, acidic pH, and and lots of organic material. Because it's a slow growing organism, it can't outcompete other faster-growing bacteria. This can help slow (but not stop) its growth. However, many fishkeepers pride themselves on keeping a clean tank. By wiping out the faster growing bacteria, they actually encourage the growth of Myco, since it no longer has to compete for nutrients! (Regardless, it's still a slow growing bacteria.)

It is highly resistant to medications and antibiotics. The bacteria has a waxy coating that protects it. It can even survive in distilled water, or on hard surfaces (such as countertops) for long periods of time.

Mycobacteria are easily killed by moist heat (> 65 °C for at least 30 min), fortunately. _(Source: Mycobacterium - Pathogen Safety Data Sheet.)_ Bleach, even at high concentrations, is NOT effective on it. Household Lysol also will not inactivate it, however there is a hospital-grade version that supposedly can kill it. Also, 70% ethanol can be used. (The 70% concentration was found to be more effective than a 90% solution.) Expose to UV light also will kill it.

Some types, such as _Mycobacterium Marinum_, can cause skin infections in people, although this is a relatively rare occurrence. (The bacteria can enter via a cut or abrasion in the skin.) It is difficult to treat this condition, often requiring the use of antibiotics for a prolonged period of time.

Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure if a fish has a Mycobacterial infection is to conduct lab analysis and/or a necropsy. (There is no non-lethal form of testing currently available.) During a lab analysis, internal organs are examined, and samples are cultured to determine the presence of Mycobacteria. 

In the lab, classifying the organism as _Mycobacterium _is relatively straightforward. However, determining the exact species is a more involved process. (This is why it costs a lot more.) Different species grow at different rates, under different types of conditions, etc. 

It doesn't really matter what species is present though. "Mycobacterial infections of all fish should be considered non-treatable. Although there are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may resolve temporarily but often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued. As described for food fish, depopulation and disinfection of all contaminated equipment is recommended." Source: Mycobacterial Infections of Fish

If you want to know more about it, here is an excellent article: Mycobacterial Infections of Fish.


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

yeah I know that, but that's not the type of bacterias that live in our aquariums. They can even live in volcanic environment, as they are responsible for the amazing coloration of the geysers.

Those living in our aquariums are probably all eradicated with only 10 minutes of boiling water.





Bloodfire said:


> I'm studying to be a biochemist, so I must correct you on one thing: bacteria can grow in many extreme environments, and some can resolve an endospore stage that can resist extremely high heat.
> 
> Fortunately these bacteria are normally not pathogenic.
> 
> ...


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## Bloodfire (May 2, 2014)

I actually had to do some research (academic, sadly not lab) on a rare variant of mycobacterium that had low prevalence in North America, but had an issue in certain hospitals. Can't remember which specific species it was, but mycobacterium are a royal pain in the highness. 

As per what does live in aquariums, higher prevalence would indicate you're right, but considering we have only scratched the surface unto the various bacteria around... (science community recently identified some new bacteria found in people's noses for example, causing histamine like reactions), I wanted to play it safe. Plus, i wanted to eliminate any possible parasites. Oh, and a surprisingly large number of bacteria can enter endospore stages, which is interesting because they have revitalized bacteria from prehistoric times thanks to it surviving in endospore stage... 

On a new fish now. Hope it goes better!


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