# Cost of breeding quality



## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I don't know it this has been done before but this is a cost estimate of breeding a quality pair vs non-quality pair. I'm a "record keeper" so I always cost estimate everything.

Decent quality pair with a strong genetic background from a US breeder in a popular color/pattern:
$50+$12(shipping)=$62
$3 BBS eggs
$5 pellet feed
$120(labor) 15 hours(10 minutes a dayx90 days) @$8-feeding/fry care

$190(low cost estimate)/50(very average number of sell-able fry)=$3.80
So that's $3.80 per fish for you to break even. You will need to add in the cost of shipping supplies to each fish shipped. I come up with .60 per fish.
Sooo $4.40 per fish JUST to break even. This doesn't include the cost of your set up. You could easily pro-rate the cost of your supplies over 10 spawns or so and adjust the cost of the fry accordingly. Just to keep your books straight I'd consider buying show stock and/or breeding stock from yourself at cost. If not you again have to adjust the selling price of the fry. Nicely colored fish without glaring conformation faults should sell for $10-$20 on average with higher prices for nicer individuals.
$10x50=$500
$500-$220=$280
$280 is NOT much money for the 90 days of time, water and care involved but it is enough to truly break even and afford better stock and show fees. This is for a very average spawn. Sometimes there will be fewer individuals and therefore less money. This amount doesn't take into consideration the time involved in photographing fish or going to the post office to ship.

Low quality/not strong genetic background:
$16 (cost of pet store fish/gas to get there and back)
$3 BBS eggs
$5 pellet feed
$120 labor

$144/50=$2.88 just to break even. The pet store mark up is usually more than 100%. The pet store can sell for $5-$8 on average for HM's or CT's-VT's are around $3-$4. The maximum amount a pet store would pay would be $1.50-$4 per fish IF the fish were at least 1.25". They will not pay that amount for smaller fish as the finnage isn't in really good yet and will be harder to sell. You would have to be pretty good friends with the pet store owner to even get that much for your fish.
$2.50x50=$125(sold to a pet store)
$4.50x50=$225(sold to individuals)
$124-$144= $-20 You will lose $20 selling to pet stores
$225-$144=$81 You could potentially earn $81 IF you can find 50 individuals to buy your fish. That's going to take even more time to advertise and ask around. You can easily kiss that goodbye the first few spawns because of newbie mistakes.

Now, in my area, pet stores have contracts with wholesalers and will not buy from individuals UNLESS you have something they want like giants.

Now I think there is something to be said for money spent on a hobby. A hobby is something you do to pass the time and create a diversion. It's OK not to break even on a hobby but eventually you will stop if you are losing too much money and spending too much time for not enough reward. I can't imagine the hassle of trying to re-home 50+ fish from every spawn that nobody wants because they can go to the pet store and get something better for less money.


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

Thank you for this! 

I have a question though, are you saying it costs $8 each day to feed fry?


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

$8 total cost for 90 days. I find I can use 6-8g of BBS($3 worth) and banana worms/walter worms(which are cultured and free) + $5 worth of tubifex/pellets. Of course, I buy in bulk and my cost is substantially less than if you buy small packages. I begin feeding mosquito larvae as soon as they are big enough which is free for me here in Florida. If you want to buy more expensive food and supplements than of course the cost will be higher.


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

Very interesting. I appreciate this being posted! Gives me an idea of what I would make, though 120 in labor seems a bit high for something that's just a hobby, even if it's for 90 days.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I figured $8/hr which isn't much over minimum wage for 10 minutes per day over the course of 90 days. Some days I spend 2 minutes some days I spend 30 minutes. It works out to 10 minutes per day...roughly. I feel that my time is worth something even if it is minimum wage.

If I culled or gave away everything I wasn't going to show or breed and never sold any fish than labor hours wouldn't matter. I wouldn't have nearly as much time invested either because I'd simply cull whatever wasn't going to work for me. If it's culled then it isn't eating and having to be cleaned up after. I wouldn't have to cost estimate in order to price fish either. It is strictly hobby for me but I am not made of money. In order to afford better stock and shipping to shows not to mention entrance fees and equipment upgrades I have to put a price on my fish. In order for that to be a fair price, the price must include everything that went into breeding and raising that fish. Labor included.

I also feel that if fish are under priced that will drive prices down across the board. That would cause a ripple effect that could potentially put people with a tighter finance margin out of the hobby. Less people in the hobby=less available stock=less fish to show=less shows=less awesome fish on the market for buyers. Fairly priced fish will make sure "betta art" can continue and grow.


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

So the 120$ in labor, I'm confused on that. :question:


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## mentallybetta (Jun 20, 2013)

$120 in labor is the "estimated value of what your time is worth"

It's basically putting a dollar figure on your time

Time is money


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

Scratch that, we posted at the same time. So if I don't feel like my time is worth anything, (lol), then I can subtract the $120 from the cost?


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

Even if you counted nothing in labor, though, it turns out to be a better deal to breed quality--and that is just magnified if you count multiple spawns from the same pair.


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## mentallybetta (Jun 20, 2013)

Lol, I guess you could, shannonpwns


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

You add it to the end profit. Lol.


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## mentallybetta (Jun 20, 2013)

I agree completely, Deanna


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

Thank you though, for the breakdown. I think I will be on the lookout for a good pair online, rather than just breeding some pet store fish for fun. If I'm gonna do it, I might as well do it right!


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

Also, if you put fish up for auction they will sell quickly on ebay. I see it all of the time! Even with lesser quality fish. I saw a VT go for $9 and it was literally in the cup it came in the store! Crazy. And it was your average blue and red multicolor. Don't forget shipping. Some betta that the forms aren't any good will go for $18 if you're lucky. That's the route I'm going, and offering some here. But yeah, you just have to be smart about how you rehome them. I figure my end outcome will vary exponentially. BUT I do have show quality fish, so hopefully it will be more than that. Lol.

On a side note, I should charge my husband a thousand dollars a week for childcare. <JUST KIDDING!


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

Lamb said:


> On a side note, I should charge my husband a thousand dollars a week for childcare. <JUST KIDDING!


If only that were possible... I'd be right there with you on that one hahahaha.


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

LOL! It's the sleep deprivation speaking. Don't mind me.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

shannonpwns said:


> Scratch that, we posted at the same time. So if I don't feel like my time is worth anything, (lol), then I can subtract the $120 from the cost?


Absolutely! If you want to "give" your fish away by all means do it. Beware of flooding the market though.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

> I should charge my husband a thousand dollars a week for childcare


You say it jokingly but there is monetary value to it. This comes up a lot in couple counseling. The husband says "oh she just stays at home and I make all the money". OK, but she provides maid service @ $325 a month, child care for say 2 kids @ $800 a month(really it's more like $2400 a month because it's 24/7)...that alone is almost a minimum wage job right there so there would be NO POINT in her getting a min. wage job "just to help with the bills". That doesn't include grocery shopping, bill paying, dog walking, laundry (my maid NEVER did the laundry) etc. etc. etc. Now, the problem comes into play when the stay at home wife doesn't really cook, or clean or take care of the kids like it's her "job" that's when the resentment sets in and problems start. I believe that a stay at home wife HAS a job. It is taking care of the kids and house.

The bottom line is I am saying your time is worth something.


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

Kinda off topic, but, Are you a counselor?


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

No. 
I thought about minoring in it though.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It's a good idea, but it varies greatly though

My so-so quality pair? Their offspring from one spawn sold all within 24hrs but for a couple which sold later. $8 - 15 per fish.. 

So-so quality pair, F2 I have show quality fish and am being told by heavy hitters in the betta world that I could easily become champion next year if I continued the line. The F2 will be sold the same per fish or more, depending upon the fish.

If bred right, selected properly, etc the "cheap" fish can turn out to be money makers if you know what to look for 

Also knowing multiple breeders via groups (like on FB) you can get quality breeders, show fish, etc for cheap or even free a lot of times. 

I think some of the numbers don't properly add up, especially the food - you will have multiple kinds of food and fed different amounts throughout them growing up, etc. 

I have yet to meet a breeder (even the best breeders who sell their fish for high dollar) break even within a year - it's an ever costing hobby.. and don't forget water/electric bills that will rise, etc. 

It's a rough estimate, but should also know that it will take a couple years to break even, and you will NEVER stop spending money on the fish each month. 

My start up costs when I started out was for a small program - 2 spawns at a time - spent (including fish) close to $1500 start up, and have spent hundreds more since as you start to tweak your operation, expand, etc. So it gives you an idea, but ideally you should be aiming for quality fish that you can sell easily for $10 - 15 at least per fish in order to get close to even after a couple years  This is a money spending hobby, never will be a money making unless you are a betta farm in places like Thailand where you can take advantage of the weather all year long, and use the outdoors for space.


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

Oh, absolutely. For some folks, though, their time is worth a lot more, because they could be making more money doing something else; that is where the hobby portion comes in, because in reality they're losing money regardless, just from devoting time to this rather than to something else. Those people are in it for fun, really, but producing quality, to me, is a challenge and part of the fun.


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

This brings up a very important point, though, that I've been thinking about. I will perhaps start a thread for it, unless I can get some good answers here.

If this is treated as a business, what costs can you write off? All set-up? All your tanks and fish, etc.? I realize that you can only fail to make money for a few years before the IRS declares it a hobby rather than a business, but most of the cost in breeding is in set-up. Can that cost be written off for a few years, or when you fail to make money, is that essentially put back in?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I don't know.. I don't know anyone who has written this as a business.. I mean, if you do nothing but lose money the whole time, why would you want to pay taxes on top of it? Just my thought 

I do it for the fun and love of the fish.. went into this with $20k+ in savings in hopes it lasts! lol.. this is in no way a career, and any money I get off of sales ALWAYS is put right back into something fish related lol.. sigh..


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

Now personally, I am a resourceful person. I will always try for free or cheap. I can make or build most things. My start up cost for a two spawn operation was $250 including the fish that were bought on sale due to a grand opening.
It actually does cost me $8 in "purchased" food to feed 1 spawn for 90 days but again I only end up with 50 or so individuals AND I already have cultures(free), all the equipment AND plenty of wild food(free). The purchased food is really only BBS eggs, FD tubifex and pellets once they are jarred or tossed in the female tank(kiddie pool, lol).

Resourcefulness is going to make a huge impact on costs.
Some people just don't have to be or don't want to be as frugal as others.

I also live in Florida and take advantage of the climate. No heaters. Wild food. Outdoor ponds. Plenty of aquarium weeds in the lake.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I treat it as a business just to keep my costs in check and to be able to fairly price fish. I am a list/number person though. I don't consider 2 spawns every 2 months any type of business venture.


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

I feel the same way. I'm starting my own cultures, I got a 20g (advertised as 15g) on CL for 30, it came with stand, heater, filter, water test kit, conditioner, food, automatic feeder, breeder cage, nets, scrubber, and a few other items. Then I bought a 20g on sale at Petco this weekend for 20, and a new filter (spawn tank). I have a large plastic tub for the breeding tank, and bought a few other supplies. Overall the set up only cost about $100. Fish was the most expensive, good quality males and 3 females set me back $120 with shipping, then I bought more fish to make a sorority, and other males in the mix for about $75 with shipping total. In all I have 5 males (only a few breeding worthy) and 7 females (only a few I'll breed). Not to mention the males set ups... I haven't bought myself something in a while so this is my something. Lol. Plus I made all of the money myself selling and making goods, so the hubs doesn't mind. 

Not a money making hobby, that's for sure, but I hope to at least have it pay for itself.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

> Not a money making hobby, that's for sure, but I hope to at least have it pay for itself


You said it perfectly. I just want it to more or less pay for itself. I will likely never have more than 3-4 spawns going during the warm months and maybe 1 during the cool months. I know how much time it takes and don't want to be tied down taking care of so many fish but overall I enjoy the hobby. It is something for _*me*_.


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

Yeah. I think 2 spawn at a time for me. It's just more realistic for me than to have a constantly growing population. I'm hoping to breed my copper male, and a sky blue female first (Altair, and Celina) and my super fancy show quality male and his female (Hydrus and Hydra) first.  All HM here.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

A long time ago I thought maybe just maybe I could make some money breeding betta. Well I can tell you it will be very difficult to almost impossible to break even and most all of us breeders try for quality as much as possible. This is a great hobby and a dismal business venture.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

^^ Yup.. when I first started my boyfriend thought I'd be bringing in money with it.. thousands of dollars later.. nope! But he loves that I love it, so it's payment enough


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## shannonpwns (Jul 15, 2013)

My boyfriend looked at me like I was crazy when I brought it up to him, and just chuckled and shook his head and said "oh boy"....not sure what that means, haha.


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## mentallybetta (Jun 20, 2013)

My wife thought it was cute when I told her (before we were married and before I owned any fish because I lived in a dorm) I was really into betta and wanted to breed them.

Now that she realized I wasn't being cute and now my office is more of a fish breeding room than a computer centered environment I think she has since changed her opinion to, "I married a crazy person"


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

LOL you two


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

Mentallybetta, I think my husband feels the same way!! He thought it was cute till I wanted to take over the space where he has his hunting gear stored....


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

Lol. I just got my first 2 shipments yesterday and my husband came home and said "Holy Crap, they're everywhere."


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

My husband gave me the ok to use the spare room for breeding bettas haha. He did that in hopes I would clean it out because right now it's just a storage room. Little does he know. He is the reason I got back into fish keeping 5 years ago. I know I had a fish addiction problem in the past. My husband said why don't you set up a fish tank it would like nice. I said really and warned him that I loved fish. Now I have 6 fish tanks ranging from 100gl-2gal.

I am excited about breeding or giving it a try.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

Deanna01 said:


> Mentallybetta, I think my husband feels the same way!! He thought it was cute till I wanted to take over the space where he has his hunting gear stored....



LMBO, this is MY house! I wanted either the closed in garage or the patio because both have water. 
He wanted the garage for the "game room" but procrastinated until there were too many fish tanks to move. I will still move them but now he has to help


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## Jennifer Vazquez (Jul 12, 2013)

My husband thought I was crazy, and that I don't know what I'm doing...little does he know how many hours I have been studying all the breeding info on this forum... Also his friend gave us a 55g tank, and he thought that meant I didn't need any other tanks.hahahah, he has no idea!!!! I can just imagine his face when I have 50 cups wwith betta in them all over the living room and kitchen.


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

My opinion is:
When you start seeing or thinking dollar signs,then you lose the enjoyment of breeding.
Everyone wants to make a little money(even me) from their spawns,but don't let it overshadow the enjoyment you get from watching them go from egg to adults,that is something you can't put a price on!!
Breed good quality fish,enjoy it,sell for what you can get,and don't worry about breaking down the cost to do something that you love to do.
Bill


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

^THAT is what we should all live by. Perfect.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

It's just like with dog breeders. The ones that want to make money at it are not doing the dogs any good. They are harming the breeds they sell. There is no real money in breeding you do it for the love of the animals most of the time. 

Yes there are show dogs that can command a very high price. But it cost a lot of money to become a top show dog or top show horse. 

How much do you think a betta farm in Thailand makes?


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

snowflake311 said:


> How much do you think a betta farm in Thailand makes?


Things are usually cheaper in Asian countries. (I'm Filipino, my mother is native, my best friend is Taiwanese. I know that's not Thai. Lol.) But things are cheaper, so the profit is much larger selling to people in the USA because we pay a hefty amount for fish, then there's the novelty of having an import. So we may pay even more. Personally I think $80 on a fish from Thailand, and shipping fees on top of that is too much.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeah I know things are cheaper over there. Also they don't need heaters and the water is cheap or free. Also the fish food is free because they have natural live food.

the conversion from US dollar to Thai baht 

1 Thai Baht equals
0.032 US Dollar

So I wonder are these betta farmers making a good living or just getting by? We Americans are suckers for buying fish at such a high cost.


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

For every us dollar they get 31.25 Thai Baht... If they're selling the fish for let's say 20, that's 625 Baht for one fish. I think that's a pretty hefty amount for one fish! If they deal solely with US buyers, and they sell 15 fish a month (probably more) that's 9375 Baht. I know in Taiwan, you can get pretty nice clothing for a US dollar. I gave my friend some money for when she visited her family, and came back with a duffle bag stuffed of stuff for me. And it wasn't but $50 (If you go anywhere here, it's $50 for a top or 2 and some jeans). I know my mother's family in the Philippines if she sent them Levi's jeans, they could live on the money they got for one pair of jeans for a month. I don't see Thailand being any different. 

Also taking into consideration the money they save on supplies, and could probably get away with raising them outdoors. They have a HUGE profit margin.


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## mentallybetta (Jun 20, 2013)

I believe you need to make about 65000baht a month to live comfortably (middle class with a car)... they'd need to sell a lot more than 15 fish a month.


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## Lamb (Jul 9, 2013)

Hmm. I was thinking of it in terms that you get more money for US dollars. But I guess not? It really doesn't make sense though... Asian countries are cheaper than the US. Seems strange to me, but maybe because I grew up thinking something different.

Just found this, a blogger who lives in Thailand herself:
http://alittleadrift.com/2011/04/living-costs-chiang-mai-thailand/

65000 seems a little high considering. But anyways, they sell a LOT of betta, and most sell for more than $15-$20 a fish.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

The point of this post was to illustrate that buying quality breeding stock will go further to support your hobby than breeding pet store fish. I am on a budget. I can't just spend whatever I want because I enjoy the hobby. If I don't put a cost on things then I can't stay in it. Bills come before breeding pairs and spawn tanks!

Thailand is becoming one of the top places to retire abroad because of the low cost of living yet high quality of life such as access to top quality doctors.


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

In the Philippines it's usually $1 US Dollar for $40 Pesos.. (I'm Filipino, too) That's a big conversion. lol They always sell normal wild type PKs in the streets for vending. To be honest, I see people fight them. But.. I guess it's normal.

I wonder how much you pay per month? I've seen around $30?


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