# Suddenly lethargic Betta



## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Hi, I was wondering if I could get a little help with my CT Betta.

I came home tonight to find him chilling in the back of the tank behind the filter with his mouth out of the water and his tail hanging down at an angle. He doesn't seem to be gasping, but conserving energy. He's waving his front fins to keep himself steady, but isn't swimming around or feeding or begging like he normally does.

I have him in a cycled, planted 5 Gallon tank.
There are two filters and an aerator on one.
The tank is heated and kept at 78 F.

I do a 25% water change every other day and a 50% once a week, treating it with Seachem Prime and some plant fertilizer. I also usually have to top it up every day with some pretreated water too.

He has two dwarf cories and a ghost shrimp for tankmates (a third dwarf corie he killed a day ago).
The ghost shrimp gets a quarter algae tab every other day.
The beta gets 4-5 Betta tabs in the morning and a few shrimp flakes in the night I use to distract him so I can sink more flakes for the cories in the opposite corner from where I feed him.

Normally my Betta is swimming all over, exploring the plants, hanging out in the bubbles from the aerator, and always comes right to the front as soon as I walk into the room to beg for food or show off and swim around for me, but tonight I have become really concerned because he's just hiding there. 

His belly does look a little big like he maybe ate too much earlier, but when he has done that in the past, it hasn't made him seem so stressed.
It doesn't appear that he has Ich.
I don't see his scales sticking out with the pinecone look.
I don't see any copper dusting on his scales or apparent worms or inflammations.

I will try and post some pictures since I think that may help.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Now he's hanging out vertically above the heater with his mouth out of the water, his lips look white. 

What am I gonna do for this guy  ??


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

The only other question I didn't answer from the sticky was the water parameters.
I don't have a test kit, but I do have Ammonia test strips which are reading < 0.5 

I'm also wondering about his coloring, when I shine a light directly on him he looks like he has a golden or copper dusting on parts of him, which I read may be velvet. 

I'll try and get a picture up.

Any thoughts?


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Wow...

are the cory's acting OK? I think those guys need to be in groups of 5 or more but a 5 gallon is way to small for that. 

anyways,


> His belly does look a little big like he maybe ate too much earlier, but when he has done that in the past, it hasn't made him seem so stressed.


 It's possible he ate too much and now has swim bladder disease - that would make them swim funky or float sideways, ect. I have seen them swim and float ever which way but never with their nose out of the water before. 

Velvet would look like he was covered in gold dust - however some bettas have a natural golden tone to them. 
This guy has velvet I do beleive:











I would PM oldfishlady or sakura8 for advice on this one. 
Maybe try fasting him for a day and see if he gets any better. I would say put him into something smaller with a lower water level - but I dont know if that would help any...


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Thank you for the reply.

I will grab a bowl and a pad heater tomorrow morning to quarantine him and give him a lower water level, and I will treat it with aquarium salt have him fast for a couple of days.

Thank you for also posting the picture of the guy with velvet. It's tough to get a picture of mine with the gold, it just reflects him as shiny back at all the cameras I have. I do remember he's always had a gold coloring, good to know thats possibly normal.

Here's the long story if you're interested:

The cories are tough to tell, I haven't had them before and I stupidly took one home on the advice of a petstore employee before researching their need to school. So I grabbed two more and a ten gallon filter for the increased bio-load in the 5g, with the intent to get a total of five once the new filter was ready. The three of them seemed really happy, schooled around the place together and were really active. The betta even seemed to like them. He would swim down and just watch them closely, and after a couple days he would just rest on top of them like he was one of the pack. Then two days ago I came home to find one of the dwarf cories dead with a big wound in his side and could only assume Little B decided his territorial instincts were stronger than his social tendencies.

aaaaanyway....

I'll follow the plan to hospitalize Little B and keep a close eye on the cories.

Thank you again for your advice and I'll update you on the progress...


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I didn't think bettas attacked cory's...I never had them myself but they get recommended as great tankmates for bettas all the time.

does he just seem to have no bouyancy? would he still eat if offered food?

Some betta colors make it hard to tell if its coloring or velvet. I had one guy that was white but looked like he was painted over in a light layer of gold. After a few months, since he was still alive, I assumed it was his normal coloring. He was the weirdest fish ever. His tank as next to my bed and he would just STARE at me ALL.THE.TIME...

Is it possible you did a water change and forgot to use conditioner? Maybe try doing a bigger water change in case there is something nasty that got into the water..a chemical or something?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi s thomas and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry your little guy is so sick.

Did his symptoms just suddenly happen? He was normal and then suddenly started to hang vertically like that? If that's the case, it almost seems like a water issue. :/ Check your heater and make sure it hasn't malfunctioned or leaked anything. Also definitely check to make sure nothing got into the water, like Tiki suggested. For now, the best thing you can do is what you are planning, which is to move him out into a hospital tank with clean water. If his symptoms don't improve in clean water you can add 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon to his tank to help him.

Your ammonia level was a little high considering you change the water so often. Have you ever checked the water straight from the tap to see if you have ammonia in the source water?


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

To answer TikiBirds:

He does have buoyancy and reorients himself very slowly when I do water changes, but won't use his tail fin to swim like he usually did, only his pectorals, and with little effort.

He will eat- but just a little bit, not his normal piggy self stealing from everyone.

Thank you for suggesting that something got missed in a water change. I did do two 50% water changes and made sure I added the appropriate amount of Prime to be sure since I was a little worried about that too.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Tiki: Bettas generally don't attack/kill cories but in this case, the cories were dwarf cories which are about 1-1.5" long. The bigger cories are usually safe from betta attacks.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Sakura8:

Thanks for your response, his symptoms did come on suddenly, in less than a day. As in he was swimming around his normal show-off cheery, begging self and then that evening had the sudden lethargy and weird orientation. He was first swimming at a 45 degree angle, mouth out of the water, but then seemed to find that was a comfortable spot above the heater sitting vertically. Tonight I found him 45 degrees mouth out of the water again. However...

He also has new developments in the last day now too, He has this horrible white fuzz around his mouth and the gold coloring seems worse. I can't get the cories to sit still for long enough, but they also seem to have some peppering of gold near their pectoral fins and gills.

So I'm off to research the white fuzz, I seem to remember others having similar problems as I read through the forum so I will try and find out what it could be and what to do, but any additional advice you have I will happily take. 

I'll also head to the LFS first thing in the morning for any meds that he will need.
I'm really worried for him and want to see him happy soon, and will continue to treat this aggressively.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

sakur8:
I was wondering about the source water too, so after i cycled the tank I started using the Prime on it in case it was the original culprit. I'm more concerned that my test strips are inaccurate since they were a clearance discount that expire later this year. I'll get a testing kit in the morning to get accurate results


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The white fuzz could possibly be excess slime coat, especially if he lots of gold on him. Have you seen him dart and rub on anything? Or the cories? If they have velvet, they may feel itchy and try to rub on stuff to dislodge the parasites.

The best treatment for velvet is 3 tsps of AQ salt per gallon, high heat at about 86 F, as close to complete darkness as possible, and daily water changes. But the cories . . . I've heard mixed things about cories and their sensitivity to salt. If you do end up needing to treat the cories, I'd recommend using a salt dip for them, not a round-the-clock bath like you will need to for the betta boy.

If velvet HAS taken a hold of him, it's possible they are in his gills and affecting his ability to breathe. :/ It is a real tenacious parasite and hard to treat with medications/chemicals because only one stage out of its entire life cycle is susceptible to chemicals. All other stages (larvae, adult etc) are pretty resistant.

EDIT: That's a good idea to use Prime because it will also neutralize any heavy metals that might be in the water, as my other thought was perhaps heavy metal poisoning.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Sakur8:
i wish I would have known that about the Cories. no more purchases based on pet store advice without proper research of my own! I got the dwarf cories to be a buddy with the first spotted cory since my plan was to get a school I wanted the littlest ones I could get and keep the bioload as little as possible. I had read of people with slightly overpopulated tanks (6"-7" of fish to 5 gal) with additional filtration and aeration. Mine is pretty heavily planted and I have the 5gal filter and added a 10 gal filter with aerator with the idea of once the new filter had grown substantial bacteria I would have the ability to give my lonely accidental cory four or five more buddies to live with the Betta and ghost shrimp....
That was the idea until this place turned into a triage camp


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

I haven't seen him darting or rubbing, but when I got the new filter I put a sponge on the outflow to prevent any current and he loved sitting in the bubbles from it's aerator. He would swim over to me and go back and forth at the front of the tank and then swim back into the bubbles and hang out for a second before coming back to beg for food or say hi.

The cories kind of hang out together and will school up the side of the tank together and go back down, they don't seem too affected... yet. I'll be keeping a close eye on them too and make sure everyone gets the love they need.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

When it comes to dwarf cories, it depends on the betta. It sounds like your little guy is on the more aggressive side and probably resented them. Because of their small size, dwarf cories tend to swim midwater instead of resting on hte bottom like big cories so your betta probably thought they were intruding on his territory. Because they're so small, you could probably get htem their own 5 gallon tank.

Don't worry, my 20g is seriously overstocked too but it has two filters and is heavily planted. Or was, until the honey gouramis ate all the plants. Anyways . . .

Okay, they don't always rub/dart with velvet (more so with ich). If he hasn't perked up by tomorrow just being in clean water, you can definitely try salt on him (3 tsps per gallon) but I'd highly recommend treating him in a separate smaller tank because salt will melt your plants. 

And again, if it is velvet, it's important to keep the tank as dark as possible because velvet is light-responsive and thrives in bright tanks. Blocking off light shortens/slows down their life cycle. Bettas can withstand high heat pretty well so 86 F will be fine for your guy if you can get the temp that high. The most important part is the daily water changes to remove the parasites that fall off.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Ok. That's great advice, thank you.

I do want to ask about the cories then too. If it is velvet, should I also treat them, since it's so contagious? Should they be in their own hospital tank or should i just treat the whole 5g?

I also got some better pictures so give me a second to upload those...

*EDIT:* I see you wrote salt dip for the cories. Will the parasite live in the planted tank and should I do anything to kill it in there if everybody gets their own hospital space?


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

*Photos from better days*

Here's some healthy photos of him from about a week ago. You can see the gold on his tail close to his body in the photo with the faux wood background, which is what made me think it was his coloring.

However...


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

*Sick photos*

Sorry for the crummy quality, but these really illustrate what I'm seeing now:

The first one shows how hard it was to get a photo of his gold coloring because he ended up just reflecting big time. But with him in the corner of the tank you can see the obvious gold dust look.

Also, note the white spots on his mouth, I know it's hidden behind the joint of the tank and silicon sealant, but you can tell it's all the way almost up to his eye. But it also seems there is white fluff on his pectoral fin and edges of his dorsal fin too. Am I reading into my worry too much or does that look accurate to you too? I don't have a macro lens, so I can't really do too much better than this right now...


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## Basememnt Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Velvet sounds possible. Copper or Proform-C is good for that. Salt, higher pH and dark also help get rid of it. The salt will help increase slime coat. It is present in all water and stress cause the fish to succumb to greater numbers of them.

If he has lost some color and just laying around and bloated he probably has some sort of internal parasite. Could have in addition to the velvet. I'm not sure he will pull out if he has internals. Feeding metro might help if still eating.. but when they start hanging around like this they are often too far gone, even with the velvet. Sorry.. hope this is not the case.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

s thomas, are the last few pics that were taken done with flash? Flash usually shows velvet pretty clearly. 

I can just barely see the white spot on his mouth. Does it look foamy/slimy/cottony or does it look like cauliflower? If it is foamy/slimy/cottony, there are several possibilities. Could be excess slime coat caused by the velvet or even the beginnings of columnaris. If it's cauliflower, it's lymphocystis which is a virus that is nontreatable. On its own, lympho is usually nonfatal but in combo with velvet . . . I'm not sure.

Sadly, Basement Bettas is right. When a betta stops eating and just hangs there, prospects aren't good. But that doesn't mean we won't try everything we can to get him back to full health. If necessary, we'll try the copper as she suggested. I don't usually recommend copper because it's a very strong medication but we can try it if you want. Just be sure to do so in a separate tank. Otherwise you have to get a copper testing kit to make sure you get all the copper out of the water afterwards. 

For the cories, I'd recommend the salt dip. Put the salt water in a small container and net the cories. Lower the net into the water and let them sit in the container for maybe 5-10 minutes, keeping your hand or something else over the top so they can't jump out. Repeat this once a day. 

As BB said, velvet parasites are always present in the water but removing your betta (and if necessary, the cories) gives the fish time to fight back against the parasites that are on them. When the fish is at full strength, it is no longer as susceptible to an outbreak and can fight off the parasites.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

The Proform-C is good to have on hand. Treast costia too andis mild. Does not affect biological filtration and can get almost immediate relief if infestation not to bad. Udual treatment 3 days. Recently had to treat a Juvie tank that got it when I went to the OK show and the ammonia spiked in their tank. Treated a week to get under control with the proform-c


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

@ Basement Bettas

Will the shrimp be okay using pro form C?

EDIT:

Nevermind, we're off to the LFS to make sure we treat him aggressively. Thank you both for your advice, I appreciate your honesty and directness and will let you know how he does.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Well we got a hospital all set up and Little B is lounging on a silk plant so he can keep his mouth out of the water. 

The parameters in the hospital are:
Temp: 82
Wrapped with construction paper for darkness. 
Aquarium salt at the concentration of 1T : 10gal
Unfiltered for calmer, current-free water. 

I also started the main tank with the aquarium salt at the same concentration, the cories seem happy and are eating and schooling around. The glass shrimp was even hanging out with them.

I wasn't able to find pro-form-c at 4 local fish stores, petsmart or petco. So I had a chat with the owner of one of the stores who had clean floors and amazing selection of fish. She looked at my pictures and echoed everything you all shared with me. She suggested I try matracyn (sp? I'm not at home to be sure...) until the proform-c comes in next week and I'll see how he does. 

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I'll keep you updated as to how he progresses.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

I should also say that I tested the water parameters twice to make sure I was following the directions properly. Here's what I got:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0-0.25 (between zero and the first lowest reading on the chart)
pH: 7.2
I also checked the source water and it did have ammonia at 0.5, I'm glad I've been using the Prime and will continue to do so.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

s thomas said:


> I should also say that I tested the water parameters twice to make sure I was following the directions properly. Here's what I got:
> Ammonia: 0
> Nitrate: 0
> Nitrite: 0-0.25 (between zero and the first lowest reading on the chart)
> ...


The higher [than say 6 we like to keep bettas at] pH will discourage velvet. I got my P-C from a Koi and pond supplier. They have some cool meds.. lol. Good place to pick up potassium pomanganate for sterilizing tanks and nets too. Keep him clean. Make sure he keeps eating and keep water clean. if you can do bbs a lot of times they will eat that even when off food.. and it seems to be like chicken soup. Live food like mosquito larvae will also tempt if a bit off food.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good advice, BB. By the way, s thomas, is it Maracyn that they suggested you use at the pet store? It will help with any internal bacterial infections from velvet but it won't do a thing for the velvet itself. And it won't work very well in high pH waters anyway. Go with salt for now.

Good luck, keep us updated!


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Thank you Both for your help.

Yesterday, Little B seemed a little better, moving his pectoral and tail fins more, less white around his mouth and the cottony tufts on his fins seemed smaller. However, he still didn't seem to want to eat, which I know you said was a really bad sign.

Sadly this morning I awoke to find Little B dead on the bottom of the tank under the heater. Most of the soft part of his body behind his gills had been consumed, so I assume this was from an internal parasite, but would again appreciate your advice.

In the meantime can you point me in the right direction for sanitizing the tank and maybe treating the cories just in case? I'll continue to look myself there's just a volume of information out there.

Thank you all again for your help. I will now carry things like pro form-c on hand. I see a lot of amateur aquarists running to the boards for advice on things they should have known from proper research and time and again you all have kindly helped them, as you did me. Like a lot of people I thought we were doing a good job with him, and this was really sad for my son and I. 

We still plan on keeping the cories and will probably keep a larger school now, once I know the ones I have are healthy. We will probably also start another Betta tank when we are ready.

Sadly the timing of this couldn't have been worse. My son's mother died just over a year ago and we had spent the week doing things to remember mommy, including remembering the fish that mommy kept for him. For our present fish to die on mother's day just seems so unfair of fate for a five year old kid to suffer in this position, so we're going to need a little time on this one.

Thank you all again for your directness, your prompt help, accurate advice and genuine interest in helping us make our little friend better. I'm glad there's a community here to help people in this hobby.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi s thomas. I'm so sorry Little B passed and at the time that he did. You have my deepest sympathies about him and about your son's mother. 

We are always happy to help you here on the forum so any time you are ready, just drop a line.

For sterilizing the tank, I would say remove the plants and place them in water that hasn't been dechlorinated. Use a dilute bleach solution (1 part bleach to 19 parts water) and rinse the tank and decor, then rinse and rinse until you no longer smell any bleach. Use extra dechlorinator the first time you fill the tank back up.

For treating the cories, if they are responding to the salt dip/bath, you can continue with that for a few days and then try the pro form-c if they still look like they might be sick.

You say part of his body looked like it had been consumed? I'm not 100% sure but I guess the velvet parasites could have done that. 

Velvet is a tough one to deal with. It can be harder to spot until it's in its more advanced (and more noticeable) stages and by then, it can be too late. Even if it is caught early, treatment is not always successful. So you did the best you could. I'm sure Little B appreciated the love and care you gave him


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Thank you. 

His body had been consumed from behind his gills and past his anal fin to his tail and up to his spine. It was pretty shocking how fast whatever had killed him had gotten through his body. I didn't see any worms but I admit I didn't look very closely.

As far as the cories, they didn't seem to exhibit any symptoms and are still schooling around together in the tank, eating well and Paling around with the shrimp. I thought they may have had velvet too because of the gold dusting behind their gills. 

However, when I look at pictures of other cories and checked out all the ones around town on our outing for supplies the other day, every corydora had that gold coloring that mine have so my suspicion has gone down. One of the best places I found was the catfish section and corydora gallery of the tropicalfishkeeping.com forums. Tons and tons of pictures. 

They'll still get a salt concentration of 1T:10gal in their tank and a close eye for a while before they get any new additions to their school. 

Part of me wonders if the little Cory that I thought Little B killed actually had a parasite he transferred to little B. I never actually saw the betta be aggressive to the cories and made the assumption he killed him based on a substantial wound on the Cory when I found his body. Is that possible a parasite killed the little guy and migrated?

If I pull all the plants and clean everything from scratch I'd need to start a cycle all over again too, right? The idea being killing everything including the bacteria in the biofilter in order to start over in order to be sure that whatever killed the fish is dead too?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I've never seen dwarf cories up close so I'm not sure but I know many cories do have some iridescence to them so maybe that's the gold part. It is highly possible the dead cory passed something along to Little B. How long were they in the same tank together?

I can do some research and see what I find about internal parasites that might eat dead hosts. In any other circumstance, I would say it was tankmates but since he was housed alone at the time of his death, there's definitely another factor involved.

Unfortunately, to tear down the tank completely does mean to reset the cycle, especially if you throw out all the filter media currently in there. If you don't replace the filter media then you won't lose your complete cycle. You may experience a spike but if you keep an eye on the parameters with a test kit, you can do a water change and minimize its effect.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if parasites can live in the filter. I'll do some checking around and see what I come up with.


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

You're kind, thank you. I'm happy to read any references you point me toward as well. It's most tedious just digging around and finding some information people give isn't so great. And I'm easily distracted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, I asked Oldfishlady, one of our forum's experts, and here is what she had to say:

I don't know of any parasite/pathogen the will eat its way out of a fish once dead.....more than likely it was just normal decomp-fish break down and decomp really fast in water with all the microorganisms, nematodes and the like that naturally inhabit the water.....

As far as the tank itself.....I wouldn't break it down...I would just make 50% water change with good vacuuming and a couple of water onlys-then back on the 50% weekly with vacuum to maintain the system.....when you remove the bad stuff you also remove the good stuff that controls the bad stuff.....or upset the balance.....


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

awwwh. I'm sorry little B passes away


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## s thomas (May 2, 2012)

Sakura8:
Thank you very much for checking, I'm glad I didn't go ahead and break it down. I did the water change and the cories seem to be doing great, the shrimp won't stop eating or growing.

Tikibirds:
Thank you for saying, I'm glad for both your help.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, I'm glad OFL had some good advice. Losing your cycle would have been a bummer. I'm happy the cories and shrimp are doing so well.


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