# Epsom Salts Treatment ?



## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

I'm just wondering / considering were the Magnesium sulfate dose rate of 1 tsp per gallon (recommended by many on this forum) comes from? 

R


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I can't answer this, other than OldFishLady (OFL) recommended a process for dropsy that brought the dosage up to 1 tsp/gal in about 30 minutes time. And then, over the course of the next 14 days, gradually raised it to about 3 tsp/gal. (See quote below.)

I generally recommend a lower dose for most issues, about 0.25 to 0.5 tsp per gallon, depending on the condition. But for dropsy, I understand that a more aggressive approach may need to be taken. And OFL is widely regarded on this forum as an expert when it comes to holistic approaches to caring for Bettas.

Here is a quote from one of OFL's posts (link to thread): 


Oldfishlady said:


> I would get him in a small bare QT container that can be floated in a heated tank to maintain temp in the 76-77F range. Cover the top with plastic veggie wrap to retain heat/humidity for the labyrinth organ and start Epsom salt (_Not aquarium salt_), tannins with good nutrition. Keep in a dim lit quiet location and hold food for the first 24h.
> 
> Premix the treatment water in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water-Add the Epsom salt 3tsp/gal and a tannin source-either IAL (_1lrg crushed/gal_) or naturally dried and fallen from the tree Oak leaf (_20 crushed/gal_)-Let this steep for at least 30min...Shake well before use.
> 
> ...


I even wrote a spreadsheet to show the increase in Epsom salt dosage over the 2 week treatment period, based on OFL's approach. Here are the results:
_Day 1: Mix 3 tsp MgSO4/gal - do 25% water changes, every 15 min for 1 hour. 
Total dosage after 1 hour: 1 tsp Epsom salt/gal 

Days 2-14: Do 50% water changes every OTHER day. Treat for 10-14 days total. Therefore:
Day 2: Total dosage: 2 tsp Epsom salt/gal
Day 4: Total dosage: 2.5 tsp Epsom salt/gal
Day 6: Total dosage: 2.75 tsp Epsom salt/gal
Day 8: Total dosage: 2.87 tsp Epsom salt/gal
Day 10: Total dosage: 2.94 tsp Epsom salt/gal
Day 12: Total dosage: 2.97 tsp Epsom salt/gal_

I know that recently, Sakura8 started a thread about Epsom salt. In it, she said that it's possible that fish can become dehydrated from too much. But IIRC, no one posted specific sources or verifiable information regarding this. (Someone please correct this, if I'm wrong.) However, with regard to people: using too much of a laxative can result in a person's becoming dehydrated and cause the person to develop an electrolyte imbalance.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> I can't answer this, other than OldFishLady (OFL) recommended a process for dropsy that brought the dosage up to 1 tsp/gal in about 30 minutes time. And then, over the course of the next 14 days, gradually raised it to about 3 tsp/gal. (See quote below.)
> 
> I generally recommend a lower dose for most issues, about 0.25 to 0.5 tsp per gallon, depending on the condition. But for dropsy, I understand that a more aggressive approach may need to be taken. And OFL is widely regarded on this forum as an expert when it comes to holistic approaches to caring for Bettas.
> 
> ...


I would go along with a dosage up to 1 tsp/gal in about 30 minutes time as a dip(maybe). According to Dr. Barbara Scott (I have great respect for Dr Barb), Epsom salt may be used as part of dropsy treatment. She suggests isolating the sick fish in a separate "hospital" tank, then adding Epsom salt at a rate of 1/8 tsp. for every 5 gallons of water. The Epsom salt will relieve swelling. She also suggests feeding the fish a special diet containing antibiotics. 

According to Koko's Goldfish, treatment for SBD includes skipping feedings for two to three days, then feeding a de-skinned pea. If that doesn't help, Koko's Goldfish suggests increasing the tank water temperature to 78 degrees to 80 degrees Fahrenheit and adding Epsom salt at a rate of 1/8 tsp. per 5 gallons of tank water. If this is not effective, treat with a medicated food or a broad-spectrum antibiotic (this is the standard treatment for goldfish).

University of Florida Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory recommends a rate of .02% (200mg/L) as an Osmoregulatory Enhancer 

And 3 tsp of epsom salt per gallon will rise the GH by 420 ppm or 23.5 °dH that is huge.

R


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

rickey said:


> University of Florida Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory recommends a rate of .02% (200mg/L) as an Osmoregulatory Enhancer


The density of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate) is 1.68 g/mL, and 1 tsp=4.9 mL, 1 gal=3.785L, so: 
0.200 g/L x (1 mL/1.68g) x (1 tsp/4.9 mL) x (3.785L/gal) = 0.09 tsp/gal 

But that's as an osmoregulatory enhancer.... What about if the fish has a condition like dropsy? What is the recommended dosage then?



> And 3 tsp of epsom salt per gallon will rise the GH by 420 ppm or 23.5 °dH that is huge.


I hadn't considered that before... but if the fish has dropsy, the assumption appears to be that the internal organs are in danger of failing. This constitutes a 'medical emergency,' in which you need to weigh the risk of dehydration (from the Epsom salt) versus the risks of the dropsy. Immersing the fish in Epsom salt is a quick way to reduce fluid retention and bloating, which would (in theory) relieve the stress on the kidneys.

I wish OFL was still on the forum. I'd like to hear her comments regarding this.....


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> But that's as an osmoregulatory enhancer.... What about if the fish has a condition like dropsy? What is the recommended dosage then?


Treatment for Dropsy and SBD were not addressed only as a osmoregulatory.



LittleBlueFishlets said:


> I hadn't considered that before... but if the fish has dropsy, the assumption appears to be that the internal organs are in danger of failing. This constitutes a 'medical emergency,' in which you need to weigh the risk of dehydration (from the Epsom salt) versus the risks of the dropsy. Immersing the fish in Epsom salt is a quick way to reduce fluid retention and bloating, which would (in theory) relieve the stress on the kidneys.
> I wish OFL was still on the forum. I'd like to hear her comments regarding this.....


My thinking is we as a group(the goldfish world) treat at a much lower dose with reasonable results. Dr. Barbara Scott was the administrator and owner of a respected betta and ADF forum, and wrote a groundbreaking paper on Flexibacter columnaris some 15 or 20 years ago(and is still the "little drummer girl") and I just can not or would not recommend a dose this high. A rise of 400 ppm in the GH is huge.
IMHO

R


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> I know that recently, Sakura8 started a thread about Epsom salt. In it, she said that it's possible that fish can become dehydrated from too much. But IIRC, no one posted specific sources or verifiable information regarding this. (Someone please correct this, if I'm wrong.) However, with regard to people: using too much of a laxative can result in a person's becoming dehydrated and cause the person to develop an electrolyte imbalance.


There's no need to have to post sources for salt dehydrating - it's a well known scientific fact.

I saw a documentary on stocking lakes. They wanted to be able to keep track of the fish that were introduced versus the native population. They accomplished this by giving the fish a salt bath. Once the fish were belly up, they moved them to a second tub with dye in it. Because the fish were dehydrated, they took in the dyed water which stained their bones, which they were able to see with some special light allowing them to differentiate between populations.


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## equonce (Oct 18, 2013)

I have a 10 gallon tank. @Little - would I have to do 25% water changes over the course of an hour?? That's a lot of work for a big tank lol. I am about to treat the tank wit ES - should I do 10 tsps and then change the water in 15 mins? I am confused....


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

equonce said:


> I have a 10 gallon tank. @Little - would I have to do 25% water changes over the course of an hour?? That's a lot of work for a big tank lol. I am about to treat the tank wit ES - should I do 10 tsps and then change the water in 15 mins? I am confused....


Why are you treating the aquarium?
R


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

equonce said:


> I have a 10 gallon tank. @Little - would I have to do 25% water changes over the course of an hour?? That's a lot of work for a big tank lol. I am about to treat the tank wit ES - should I do 10 tsps and then change the water in 15 mins? I am confused....


Uhhhh, a 10 gallon is big??


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## equonce (Oct 18, 2013)

Denzel has been pretty bloated and lethargic, so I began with fasting for 3-4 days. He started to perk up a tiny bit but he is still bloated, slight pineconing, and has a gray belly. I was going to start Maracyn Two treatment but was advised not to. It was assumed he was constipated, so I did a 50% water change yesterday and added 6 tsps to the water over the course of an hour. Today I was going to continue with the ES


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## equonce (Oct 18, 2013)

haha jaysee! Not necessarily big, just time consuming!


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Water change on a 10 is time consuming?? 

If you didn't have a water changer than I can see how a rigorous water change schedule would be a huge pain.


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## equonce (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm not sure what a water changer is, but I would consider that being me LOL


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Well you can guess were I stand on the subject. There is a reason I don't do the Betta Fish Diseases and Emergencies section very often. If I can physically see the animal I won't guess. Someone will be along shortly that can help yoU.
Good luck.



> Uhhhh, a 10 gallon is big??


It's all perspective, Jaysee

R


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## equonce (Oct 18, 2013)

thanks Rickey I hope he responds!


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

equonce said:


> I'm not sure what a water changer is, but I would consider that being me LOL


Water changer is something that hooks up to the faucet allowing you to drain and full the tank with ease.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

jaysee said:


> Water changer is something that hooks up to the faucet allowing you to drain and full the tank with ease.


Wasn't the Python one of the great inventions. Chanced the way we did water changes in large tanks

R


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

jaysee said:


> Water changer is something that hooks up to the faucet allowing you to drain and full the tank with ease.


Wasn't the Python one of the great inventions. Chanced the way we did water changes in large tanks. Betta people have it EZ

R


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Just FYI
Other drugs affected by magnesium sulfate.
doxycycline, minocycline, tetracycline,kanamycin (Kantrex), neomycin, paromomycin, and streptomycin.

R


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

rickey - Do you have more info on this? Specifically, how does it affect them? 

I'm especially interesting in knowing more about the kanamycin/MgSO4 combination. Fish with dropsy are often treated with a combination of these. And dropsy is the condition when many people recommend the higher dosage (3 tsp/gal) of Epsom salt.

I only found this, which applies to humans:

*Drug interactions between Epsom Salt and kanamycin*
_"Kanamycin can occasionally cause muscle paralysis, and using it with magnesium sulfate may increase that risk. Although the effect is often self-limiting and not associated with serious injury, respiratory arrest and death can occur when paralysis involves the lung muscles. This is most likely to occur if you are receiving high dosages of either medication or if you have kidney disease."_
Source: http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/epsom-salt-with-kanamycin-1519-3851-1409-0.html

Edited to add: 

I looked up minocycline in the same "drug interactions database." There was no mention of it interfering with Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate). I did see some other magnesium compounds listed, for example: _"Using magnesium chloride together with minocycline may decrease the effects of minocycline. Administration of minocycline and magnesium chloride should be separated by two to three hours."_ However, Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) was not shown in the list.
Source: http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/minocycline-index.html?filter=2&generic_only=#M


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

I'll pull the PDF, It has more to do with the up take of the antibiotics that a interaction problem. It seem to be backed up, I didn't go though all of the sights and footnotes. Let me see if I left my work computer up an I'll link you. You see what I do at work instead real chemistry, I'm looking for scientific papers on the interaction of magnesium sulfate and antibiotics in fish noless 

R


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## Canuck18 (Oct 27, 2013)

I have a betta with a bloated stomach- possible dropsy. Woman at Pet Smart told me to add epsom salt to his 5 gallon tank, take the carbon filters out, and add more salt every couple of days when i do a %10 water change. She also told to give my betta melafix and pimafix. Does this sound right?


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Well not to me, I use Epson salt at a much, much lower dose rate that recommended by most, and I have absolutely faith in anything that ends in "FIX" betta (melafix and pimafix) 

R


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Canuck18 - I see you posted a thread. I'll reply over there..... Give me a few minutes to read through it.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.govIt was shown that the residual amounts of tetracyclines adsorbed on membrane filters may be inactivated by addition of 2M magnesium sulphate solution to the agar for placing the filters after filtration. The antibiotic inactivation increases the possibilities of the test for antibiotic sensitivity of the microflora present in the drugs and may be used in determination of microbial dissmination of non-injection tetracyclines.
References:
1.Albert A, Rees CW. Avidity of the tetracyclines for the cations of metal. Nature 1956 Mar 3;177(4505):433-4.
2.Chin TF, Lach JL. Drug diffusion and bioavailability: tetracycline metallic chelation. Am J Hosp Pharm 1975 Jun;32(6):625-9
http://www.duke.edu/dccrp/docs/files/file/Duke_http://www.cancer.duke.edu/dccrp/docs/files/file/Duke_SkinRash_Guidelines_0209.pdf_Guidelines_0209.pdf

What other drugs affect Magnesium Sulfate?
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)
Tell your doctor about all other medicines you use, especially an antibiotic such as:

ciprofloxacin (Cipro), gemifloxacin (Factive), levofloxacin (Levaquin), moxifloxacin (Avelox), norfloxacin (Noroxin), or ofloxacin (Floxin)
doxycycline (Doryx, Oracea, Periostat, Vibramycin), minocycline (Dynacin, Minocin, Solodyn), or tetracycline (Ala-Tet, Brodspec, Panmycin, Sumycin, Tetracap); or
amikacin (Amikin), gentamicin (Garamycin), kanamycin (Kantrex), neomycin (Mycifradin, Neo Fradin, Neo Tab), paromomycin (Humatin, Paromycin), streptomycin, tobramycin (Nebcin, Tobi)
This list is not complete and other drugs may interact with magnesium sulfate. Tell your doctor about all medications you use. This includes prescription, over-the-counter, vitamin, and herbal products. Do not start a new medication without telling your doctor.

And on and on

R


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

That last part looks like what I saw on the Drugs.com interactions list..... As for the 2M solution: 

Check my math on this, but here's what I get: The molar mass of magnesium sulfate heptahydrate is 246.52 g/mole. So a 2M solution would be 493 g /L, or 1866 g/gallon. Assuming the volume of a teaspoon is 5 mL, and using the density of Epsom salt (1.68 g/mL), this would be approximately 222 teaspoons Epsom salt per gallon..... 

I DO understand what you're saying with regard to the potential risks of high dosages of Epsom salt... but even the highest dosages recommended on the forum (3 tsp/gal) are nowhere near this 2M concentration.

As I wrote recently on another thread, I believe that you have to weigh the risks of a medication/treatment against the benefits. If you have a fish with minor bloating, then using a high dosage of Epsom salt with Kanaplex (kanamycin) would result in too high a risk for the potential benefit.... But if you have a fish with dropsy or another potentially fatal condition, then doing this same treatment may be worth the same risk. 

Your thoughts or comments on this?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
_Here's the math for anyone who wants to check it. 

2M = 2 mols/L....

2 mols/L x (246.52 g/mol) x (3.785 L/gal) = 1866 g/gallon
1866 g x (1 mL/1.68g) x (1 teaspoon / 5mL) = 222 teaspoons Epsom salt_


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

The math is correct, just something for consideration, My objection is not based on drug interaction but rather a mass chance in water chemistry. I'm not a microbiologist or a biochemist so have no expertise in these areas. As a chemist I do find it hard to come to the point of 1g of it per 4 liters of water and increasing the permanent hardness by roughly 140 mg/L and we are talking adding 5 to 15 times that amount. I just feel that this radical of a water chemistry change is unjustifiable. But I will admit that there is no consensus on the web as to the dose rates. The recommended dose are all over the board. And desperate times sometimes call for desperate actions, but in my humble opinion it would be a last ditch effort. An there is some evidence that epsom salt and antibiotics may not be a good thing. This is why I try and stay away for the Betta Fish Diseases and Emergencies forum for the most part. Will say you have an intelligent mind and a firm understanding of the science and at least in your case It's not witchcraft. 

R


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

LBF for your consideration

Failure of prostatitis treatment secondary to probable ciprofloxacin-sucralfate drug interaction

R


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I've been looking for an article that I read recently, but I haven't been able to find the specific link. (I've only found other material that references it.)....

To summarize it, there was a study done (in Israel, IIRC) in which 3% Epsom salt solution was used to treat internal parasites. The high concentration of Epsom salt produced a sufficient laxative effect that it expelled the majority of the parasites. 

(Thanks for posting that link. I hadn't considered the formation of metal cation chelates. I wonder if it can interfere with the absorption of Kanaplex (kanamycin), which is the antibiotic most often recommended (in desperation) for dropsy. If so, perhaps we'll need to consider stopping the Epsom salt prior to administering kanamycin..... Let me know if you come across anything regarding this, and I'll try to research it as well.)


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