# Need advice about genetics.



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello everyone!

I haven't been to the forum for a long time. During this time, I managed to breed some Bettas.

But since I do not know the genetics of my fish, I've got some "surprises".

So I decided to ask an advice. I am not very well versed in genetics yet. Please help me make good pairs! And sorry for the photos quality...

I crossed this pair:
















This is a brother and sister from a male superdelta dumbo and female halfmun carrier of the dumbo gene. There were several dumbo and dumbo gene carriers in that brood. But there were also marble ones. All marble were not dumbo.

I decided to cross this brother with sisters because I really liked the male. I hoped that they would give some brightly turquoise monophonic ones. I knew that marbles are also possible. But in addition to turquoise, cobalt and marble, this pair produced several dumbo (which is not surprising). But they also gave these males:

Male 1)

















Male 2)

















Male 3)



















The males did not want to show themselves at all. So I have only those photos now. They 4.5 months old.
Honestly, I like the mustard gas color, but not such that those males have... I preferre a brighter yellow without smudging.

What do you recommend? Cross one of them with a sister? I have some females with this colour too. Unfortunately, there is no way to buy a mustard gas female. For 3 years I have never seen them on sale here in Russia. Males mustered gas is available but not females. I do not know why.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Here are the females;

































There are also some dumbos there. 

I'm not going to breed them right now. I want to wait a couple more weeks. But I decided to think about which pairs I should breed.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

1. Is your water rather hard (GH). I see several have cured fins and yu said they're about 4.5months . . .
Or did you breed a pair of 8 rays?
8 ray x 8 ray often produces rose and its "side effect" (defected/deformed genes)

If you wish to continue this line, breed the neatest looking fins to try breed out the side effects. I failed to breed them out after 4 generations of crossing to unrelated non rose and eventually gave up on the line.

If you like excessive rays, try breeding a 8 ray HM to a 4 ray DT. You should get more ray branching without rose side effects

2. If you want bright yellow fins, try crossing to intense yellow/orange. You should have better MG (complete yellow fins) with brighter color in F2-3 - if lucky even in F1 (considering your line already shows yellow on fins)
. . . . . . . . . .
Since I find maintaining dorsal to be the hardest, I look for dorsals with long front rays


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks! 

Yes, I was told that my bettas have 8 rays.I tried to choose a pair with the "smoothest" fins. But still, some of the fry came out like these. I mean, with fins like that. 

I also bought a new male 3 days ago.I was told that he is superdelta. I really liked his colour and brightness. Maybe I should include it in breeding with this line? Will this improve color and fins?

















Could you please tell me what is the name of this color? Butterfly?
With different lighting, his colors are vary markedly from bright yellow to orange or mustard and from grayish blue to violet.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

There is no actual name for that color. . . . Unless the breeder gave it a commercial name. It is simply a bicolor. 

Yes he should improve color. Choose a female with the most yellow on fins.

Be careful when working with 8 rays. You have to be prepared to "clean out" bad genes which may take many generations.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you very much!

Yes, I would like my fish to be healthy. I will try to do as you say.

Can I ask a stupid question? And where should I watch the number of rays? In the tail?


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## BTanaka05! (Aug 11, 2021)

Hey there! If you would like I can do some punnet squares for you to predetermine your chances of getting certain characteristics? I would just need the characteristics you want out of each fish


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

But these are not all the "surprises" that my fish gave me.

Do you mind if I ask about them too?

From the same pair, a certain amount of marble was obtained. This was to be expected since several siblings of that pair were marbled.

But I didn't expect to get this one!
























I mean, I didn't expect it to be a dumbo. And I did not expect the presence of red either ... Only 1 such male was produced in the brood.

What should I do with this male? The color is unusual (for my dumbo). But it's kinda scary to breed him with sisters. However, there are no marble dumbo among them. There are a couple of non-dumbo females from this brood that looks like marble. I'll take a photo tomorrow. 
And there is this female that I bought recently:

























I'm not sure what color she has. I decided to buy her to 
bring new blood into the line. Dumbo females are rarely sold here and there is no particular choice.

I know this female is from the Dumbo pair. The male had solid color of wet asphalt and the female is had some strange color, similar to a some cross between celaphan and platinum opaque. She was not dense enough to be opaque but not so transparent to celaphan either. At the same time, she had a pinkish color in the fins due to translucent vessels.

My grandfather said that this hobby breeder picked up an absolutely awful pair of colors. Still, I took one female from this brood. There is not much choice anyway ...

This hobby breeder got half of this brood grayish-white "dirty" color. Part of turquoise. And some of them are like their mother.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

BTanaka05! said:


> Hey there! If you would like I can do some punnet squares for you to predetermine your chances of getting certain characteristics? I would just need the characteristics you want out of each fish


Thanks!

Well, about these guys upstairs, I'd like to have a brighter fish. And with nicer fins. I didn't plan on working with yellow gene fish but since they appear in the brood I think it's worth working on this line.


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## BTanaka05! (Aug 11, 2021)

Sounds great! I will get the results to you as soon as possible


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

The only stupid questions are those you don't ask. So, never hesitate to ask.

Rays are the bone structure of fins. If you look carefully at flaring pictures, you could see lines on fins - not color lines. Those are the "rays". 

Often bettas have 11 initial rays. Each branch into 2 (VT). Each of those branches may branch further and become 4 (4ray) and these branch again to make 8rays. So in short the number of rays meant are the end of 1 primary ray.

. . . . . . . . 
Yellow and orange (Non Red - NR genes) are both from red lines. Let's say you crossed either to iridescent colors (like I advised above), you will produce red combos instead of yellow or orange. . . . But since your bettas show yellow combos, crossing to yellow may give you yellow fins even in F1 (most should be red).

To be continued . . . .


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks for the explanation!

My grandfather raised bettas but only worked with the red line. And he worked only with veiltails. So, he cannot tell about the genetics of other colors.

There is very little information on Russian forums. And part of it is more like superstition ...

Therefore, I did not know about rays at all.


I read about the genetics of orange and yellow. Yes, I understand that most of the fry will turn out to be red. But I hope that there will be yellow ones too.

By the way, there is also a question about the orange color.

I have this plakat female:

















But I don't have an orange male. Here in Russia it is generally difficult to find koi betta and even more so orange ones.

I understand that the chances to get orange ones like her are extremely slim. Could you please tell me with which male does she have more chances to give at least a few orange ones?I don't mind the yellows in the brood either, but the chances are as small as with orange colour .

I have males:

1) Red Hellboy plakat.
2) White with turquoise spots and orange fins plakat.

I will find their photos and show them later. I did not take new photos because the second male turned completely turquoise and now neither white nor orange is almost visible.
3) There is also that new super-delta male yellow-violet whose photo is above.

4) And also I have this guy :
























Hes parents plakat hellboy and this female:








The female is carrier of marble. I understand that it was not the best pair for that male, but there was no other at that time. And I was wondering what would I get from them? As a result, the pair gave a lot of marbles most of which faded to celaphan. Several marble tricolors and marble tricolor butterflys. And they gave this male ... The only one in this brood.

I have already crossed this orange female with plakat male number 2. The fry are 1 month old now.
I still want to breed her with someone else. Whom do you recommend?


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## BTanaka05! (Aug 11, 2021)

Wow! Those bettas are absolutely stunning. Sadly, I couldn’t figure out the genetic chances of each because I did not know their backgrounds. I do think that the female would go great with male 4 or male or 2 the second one would definitely make and interesting pattern! Sorry again about the squares, I wish I could’ve been more helpful. Best of luck in your betta breeding!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Sorry for the delay. I hooe you don't mind very long replies . . . .

Back to your previous question: but before I continue I need to clarify - I hope I'm wrong, but you might be misunderstanding "marble".

What do you mean by marbles - "the above brood produced some marbles". If you mean light colors, they are not necessarily marbled.

Marble is a gene that causes color pigments to shift. In regular colors the common changes are . . . Original color - change to cellophane - back to original color. Some may change again if the fish carries the genes. 
Eg. Copper marble x irid colors. Fry may start as an irid then change into cellophane and back to irid. But then change further into copper 

Marble genes also allow irregular color combos - like koi, and all those marbled patterns. Without marble genes thise combos are impossible to obtain.

The downside of marbles is that it is very unpredictable - when it changes, what color it will change into, etc. That being said, the current popular marbled patterns were initially created by shere luck and then developed.
. . . . . . . . . .
Now to your question: 
Since they came from the same spawn, you should produce more like the male by breeding to a sister with similar colors. The dumbo feature should also remain since both carry the genes.
. . . . . . . . . .
Your new female:
Basically she has similar genetics as your line. One thing for sure, both lack black genes. This is shown by their light irid - black genes make colors look dark

Since she doesn't carry red/NR genes, her fry may not dominantly show yellow fins, but few should still be like your line.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wet asphalt" . . . . If we are thinking of the same thing, to my knowledge asphalt is black. However her colors suggest she lacks black genes or have blond (which hides black genes)
. . . . . . . . . . 
Modern marbles: koi, etc
To be honest, I have no experience with new marbles as I try to stay clear of them . . . . I hate when patterns I fall in love with suddenly changes and I prefer genetics I can understand/predict.

However local friends tell me that to ensure reproducing desired patterns, it is best to breed to similar patterns (not necessarily same color). Lets take koi as an example - patterns that consist of patches or colors. If you cross this to solid colors, you may lose the pattern in F1. A friend showed me red koi x super red produced mainly cellophane up to F3. A different breeder produced fancy type patterns but then created koi patterns in F3. . . . . Like I implied above; working with marbles relies on luck than calculated genetics.

So you should have better chances of producing patterned colors by breeding your koi female to that red patterned male. I'm not sure what exactly you will get, but in the least some offspring should show patterned colors which you could inbreed to create better patterns.
. . . . . . . .


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks.

Don't worry about when you can write a response. We have different time zones. And I'm glad you're answering. On some forums, you will never get an answer...

The color of wet asphalt is dark gray. In Russia this color is called so. Perhaps it is not exactly asphalt, since it is gray (and wet asphalt is dark gray), but the name is just that.

Well, it's good that I can include a new female dumbo in thet line. I just hope that she will not give offsprings like her parents. Or at least won't give a lot of them.

Another question about the number of rays, which fish is better for breeding? And which ones are better not to use in breeding?What number of rays are preferred and which should be avoided?

As for the marble and koi, I think I get it.

In that brood the fry were very bright, saturated colors. Then they became patterned. Some were very beautiful. But most of them ended up becoming celaphan. I know that they can regain their color, but I decided dont keep celaphans for breeding. I thought that if the colored pattern remained with the fish and did not fade, then in the next generation from this fish there should be more such pattern ones than celaphan.

To be honest, the result saddened me a little. I decided that this might be due to the fact that I crossed two different types of marble - regular and koi. Perhaps these are two different types of marble? I noticed that my marble ones, which originated from dumbo line, lose their red color in 99% of cases. Their red color disappears first and never comes back. And because of that most of the red and red-blue fry have faded. The only exception is that young dumbo marble. Only he have his red colour back. In some sort...

But in koi lines of color there is red. So this is a different type of marble as I think. 

Perhaps in my case, regular marble dominated over koi marble?
By the way, I also crossed that male plakat Hellboy with a platinum female that (as I think) does not carry the marble gene. And the result is much better. Many frys have large bright spots and there not so much celaphans. Also they have red in they color. So, probably, in the first litter, such a result turned out due to two different types of marble ... 

But that red and black male at number 4 doesn't fit that theory. He's too different from the others. In that brood, there were mainly bright violet and turquoise fry with red fins. But he is whole red ... He did not lose his color. And only he has black colur. (Also a pair of females from this brood but they are black and white without red in color).

I understand that working with marbles and koi is rather a matter of luck, but I decided try to work with this line . Perhaps, over time, the results will be more predictable.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

My grandpa completely agree with you about marble. He loves monochromatic ones. And especially the red ones. He think that breeding marble not worth it. But he admits that some looks very pretty. He said that they are most likely single individuals and this color cannot be passed on to descendants . Grandpa workd in selection of goldfish for a long time. He says that sometimes 
he had amazingly beautiful specimens, but they did not transfer this color to descendants.

As for the bettas, grandpa remembered what sometimes he had cambodins among the reds. But he never kept them. And once the females yellow pineapples came out. Grandfather says that when he began to sell them, they were bought almost immediately. For the 60-70s, it was exotic. But he did not breed them. He liked the deep reds colour. He also remembered that the ones that looked like dark oranges were also sometimes pop out, but they were faded and because of that he didn't like them. So he did not work with them.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Fin rays:
There is no actual "better" for breeding. But sometimes small breeders, specially who breeds merely for fun, can only breed a few pairs at a time and only 2-3 times yearly. So working/breeding for generations to clean out certain genes can be difficult thus wiser to avoid.

8 rays x 8 rays almost always create rose and its side effects. IME it's safer to breed 4 x 4 or 4 x 8. 

Many have bred out negative genes and produce amazing roses. They claim their roses are safe to breed. . . . Not sure. As I merely enjoy learning their genetics, I prefer to go the safe route and avoid roses. 

That being said, if you like excessive rays, breed a 8 ray to a 4 ray DT. This should avoid negative side effects.
. . . . . . . . . . . 
I think the wet asphalt you're talking about is "copper" (my avatar). Coppers were originally a hybrid between splendens and wild species. Wild genetics brings out the metallic feature in splendens. 

Genetically, coppers are said to have steel blue background. So if you cross a copper to an irid, you will mainly produce irids. Few will be coppers and metallic irids (except royal blue - they cannot show glimmering metallic feature). 

Irids from these pairings WILL, at some point, produce a few coppers, even though they were bred to other irids. So if you want to avoid them, your new female shouldn't be used.

Not sure if this is true: I read that intense true gold can be achieved by breeding a platinum to a blond copper (very light grey/steel color). Since my experimenting days are over, I haven't tried - I only breed to keep my collection going.
. . . . . . . . . . . .
Marbles:
All I know is that patterned colors are recessive against solid colors. Maybe because it takes several genetic codes in specific sequences to physically become koi, etc. So If crossed, you'd probably get fancy (multi) type of colors.

The marble gene itself is dominant. It takes several generations to clean out marbles. And sometimes it may skip a generation or two but then suddenly reappear in the following generation.
. . . . . . . . . . . 
Regular red is commonly known as cherry red - a darker tyoe of red due to bkack genes. To create bright red, it is crossed to cambodian which carrie blond genes - like creating yellow/orange (NR colors). Therefore, working with bright red and NR may produce cambodian and cellophane.

Though you may initially produce bright NR colors, eventually they will fade (don't know why). To my knowledge, people cross them to black melano to bring back color intensity (because black often influences color shade)
. . . . . . . . . . . 
***Note: all color crosses I mentioned above WILL not produce desired color in F1. You will have to work on the line to achieve your goal. If you chose the right pair (inbreed), you should achieve your goal in F3-4. But that's easier said than done. Lol

Good luck!!!


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks!

Yes, maybe that male was copper. In those photos that the breeder showed it was difficult to understand since the metallic sheen was not visible at all.
But good copper bettas is gorgeous.(I have crowntail copper male).
So I will breed that new female with my marble dumbo at least once to see what result they will give.

I understand that the desired color will probably not show up in the first generation. In all my lines. But I’ll do my best to work with them.

And one more question about koi.
I have this female from that brood:

























She is not bright red, but at least she hasn't lost red colour (by the way, what is this red color? Is it a variation of cambodian?). Do you think it is better to breed her with brother (male number 4) or with her father (hellboy plakat) to increase the number of red koi fry?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I would try both - the father, since he supposedly has more "original" helboy genetics and the brother because hopefully they will produce more patterned variations.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks!

Yes, that's a good idea.

Probably in the next few days I will put 2 pairs for spawning. Plakat hellboy with his daughter and that male number 4 with a female orange koi. If they dont match, I will swap those females. Because the koi female is adult and it is not known how she will react to the young male (and hes reaction to her). But in the other pair, I think will be fine, since the male is calm and never showed aggression during spawning. 

I will write later what came of it.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello!

Yesterday I spawned 2 pairs of Battas. The ones you recommended.

1) Plakat Hellboy (His name is Bully) with a female plakat orange koi (Her name is Caramel).

2) Long-fin superdelta red and black koi (his name is Flamenco) and his sister cambodia-like koi (her name is Aquarelle).

At first I thought of pairing up differently and spawning the Bully with his daughter Aquarelle. And the female Caramel with the Flamenco. But it turned out that they did not fit much in size. Caramel turned out to be much larger than Flamenco and Aquarelle was too small for the Bully. So, I swaped the females.

Here are the places I equipped for them:








In each box, I fenced off a corner and put in some Styrofoam raft. Usually males build a nest under it.















The water is yellowish because I added a decoction of alder cones to it (this is our analogue of almond leaves).

The Bully has already spawned 3 times. A good non-aggressive male and a good father. Caramel was spawning a month ago. And before that, attempts were unsuccessful, since she did not want to spawn and was very poorly gaining eggs.

But this time the Bully was so excited by the fact that he will spawing that he did not leave Caramel alone. Therefore, I put her in a jar. And usually with my males this is not necessary, since they are never aggressive towards females. And the results were always better without the use of jars.

And the young couple Flamenco and Aquarelle are spawning for the first time. No experience at all. At first, the male did not even know what to do, whether to build a nest or have a nap in grass... And the female also did not understand why she was here. She swam everywhere and the male did not chase her.

I released the Caramel from her jar this morning, fed the couples and left them alone. At lunchtime I checked them again. It turned out that this time Bully for some reason built a nest not in a corner under the raft as usual , but in an open place. At first moment I didn’t see any eggs, but then it turned out that they gave a lot of eggs and it’s all in this "pyramid- shape" nest. So I separate Caramel and fed her. And left Bully with his nest.
















And Flamenco male from the young couple built a good big nest. But due the fact that I did not see any eggs in the nest and the female swims boldly wherever she wants,I think they did not have spawning. So, I decided to leave them together for another day. Tomorrow we'll see will they spawing or not. For now the male guards his nest and dances under it. And he does not show the slightest aggression towards the female.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Congrats on (at the moment) one successful spawn.
Since the young couple still show breeding behavior, I'd let them be . . . . I usually give them 7 days. 
First time females usually need at least 3 days of courtship.

I can't wait to see the results.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks!

Yes, my grandpa said the same thing. Since the couple do not show aggression towards each other.

I looked at how things are going:
The Bully takes care of the nest and eggs. He in the good mood.

Young Flamenco sits under his nest. He dances at the sight of a female, And she has become a little shy but shows interest in both the male and the nest.

We'll see what happens next.


I can't wait to see the results too


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## KatieMR (Mar 31, 2021)

I love reading your posts, @Julia S! I am not planning on doing any breeding, but it is a really interesting subject to learn about. Thanks for asking all the questions about colors and genetics and sharing your story! I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with these spawns!


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks a love! I'm very pleased. 

I decided did not breed fish without knowing about their genetics. Because too often I see the results of hobby breeders according to the principle - "I like this fish and this one! I will breed them! Oh, why are their children so ugly ?! Why anybody don't want to buy them !?"

So I try to understand genetics to have less such situations.

I also bred budgerigars when I was a student. I was registrat on the bird forum and my friends taught me well about genetics of parrot colors. Therefore, there have always been beautiful birds in my flock. This is another reason why I decided to learn better about the genetics of bettas since I decided to breed them ...

And also my grandfather has been raising and selling fish all his life. And he teaches me to. But he bred bettas for a very long time ago in the 60-70s. At that time, only veiltails bettas were available in Russia. And there weren't very much color mutations. Grandpa worked only with the red lines(his favorite color in fish), So now we study the genetics of bettas together.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I checked the fish.

Here is the nest of Bully:









And we have a progress. The young couple tried to mate. Awkwardly and unable to find the right position to embrace. I didn’t see the eggs in the nest, but maybe it’s in the place where I can't see it. For example, under a raft or under a plant. For this reason, I do not know if they spawned or they THINK that spawning was ...

Flamenco makes a "angry face" and dancing to the female and at the same time allows her to swim towards him and even swim under the nest. I saw that she's looking for something on the floor. Possibly, after all, they did spawn and she is looking for eggs on the floor?

So I decided to leave them together for a little more. Until Flamenco begins to drive her away from the nest. The grandpa said that until the male do not began to drive the female away from the nest, spawning could be in progress.


I have a photo of Flamenko nest. It seemed to me that there was no eggs in it. But I looked closely and there is something whitish. Maybe it's an eggs?









Near the raft in the middle of a green plant?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To make life easier, try breeding without any floating solids. Instead, cover above where you want them to nest. You'll be able to easily see eggs.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Okay, next time I'll do it. I used to give them a raft because some males wouldn’t build a nest without it (I don’t know why). And then I began to put the raft for every pair ...

Tomorrow morning I will look at what happened to this pair. If the male begins to drive away the female, then I will remove her. I will leave the male in the box as if there were eggs. And after a few days I will remove the male and carefully check if there are any fry. Anyway I always remove the fry from large containers. They are easier to keep eye on them in smaller containers. And for them it easier to find a food. I never dared to breed fish in smaller containers right away. So, I just carefully relocate the fry.


I once had a situation like this:

I've spawned a couple of halfmoons. But I did not saw any activity and attempts to spawn. I also did not see eggs in the nest. And the nest almost all crumbled.

So I removed this pair and put the young dumbos pair in there. But I did not find any spawning behavior in them either...The male was not interested in the female and only guards and build the nest ... And the female did not approach the nest...

When I removed this pair, it turned out that there are fry in the box! There were about 50 of them. And it is not known whose they parents were. Halfmuns or dumbo ... But since I thought there was no spawning, I did not hatch brine shrimps for frys. I tried to feed them with other foods until brine shrimps hatched. But I lost them. I had little experience raising bettas at that time ...

But this served as a lesson to me -"Even if you can't see a frys or eggs, it doesn't mean that they are not there."
And now I always hatch brine shrimps even if I don't know if there any frys or not.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I found a photo!

These are both of my plakat males on the first day at home. I went to the other city to get them...Hellboy Male named Bully and the second one iss Harlequin( I still don't know what
colour he is?).

















And this is Harlequin.









Bully was so spinning around that I have only that photo...









And this is Caramel.
Here she is the first week at home
















And here she has been with me for 1-1.5 months
















And this is how she look's now ...


















I spawned Caramel with Harlequin last month. The fry were born on September 16, 2021.

And this time i spawned her with Bully.


Very curious what kind of colours and patterns I will get from them?


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello everyone!

Well, Bully's kids hatched. He is a good experienced father and takes good care of them.

But the young couple continues to akt weird... They still do not have aggression towards each other. The female sometimes swims under the nest and looks for something on the floor. The male, on the contrary, can easily swim away from the nest. He drove the female away from the nest only once. Dancing he pushed her out from the nest by his butt ... And then he behaved again as if nothing had happened. That is, he does not chase her or beat her. And she behaves boldly and swimming wherever she wants... I don't even know what to do with them. Leave them together for a while?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

This is more of a gamble, take out the styrofoam. But leave the area covered. If there are no eggs, then it'll be fine - I mean they will still spawn. But if there are eggs, they might stick to the foam. Gently drip water on them to slide them back into the tub. Male should still care for them. 

With or without nests, they will spawn and fry will hatch. So you don't have to worry about bubble nests.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I did as you said. I removed the raft. And I examined the nest more closely. Well, I didn't see any eggs in there...

My grandpa said that in such situations, sometimes he maked a small water change. He said that I can gently replace a small amount of water in the spawning box. He advised took boiled but cooled water. Because boiled water is softer. And this can serve as a trigger for spawning he said. 
Grandpa also said that this pair should be kept together for at least a day after the water change.

How do you think should I do this?

I thought that maybe the couple is too young but they will be 5 months on the 26th october. My grandfather said that at this age you can spawn bettas.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Inexperienced, maybe. But not too young.

I have never tried adding boiled water to fish tank. If it worked for him, you can try it - you have nothing to lose.

All I know is that first time breeders may take longer than veterans. As long as both show positive signs, I usually let them be until 7 days. If together for too long, they may lose interest and just coexist.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I understand that sometimes it happens for the first time spawning fish.
But now I just interested will they spawn this time or not?
Grandpa said that yes, I can leave them together for up to a week (making sure they not hurt each other). But he said that if they did not succeed then separat them and for 10-14 days give them good feed with live or frozen food. And then try to spawn them again.

I don't know about boiled water either. But the grandpa claims that such water becomes soft for a while and can stimulate some species of fish to spawn. Including the bettas. So I'll try this.


I watched a young couple. They so funny! They swim one after another like children while playing run and catch. First the male follows the female and then the female follows the male! They spin around the nest and under the nest. The male collected garbage from the floor and put it in the nest and looked proud of himself...
This is the first time I have such an odd couple!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

IMO, their behavior is normal. They are showing courtship behavior - "follow the leader". Let them be, at least for 7 days. If by then they haven't spawned . . . . You decide whether to continue or separate to try again later. 

I sometimes leave a pair together long term and let them spawn naturally several times. It was more of an experiment. I found out that if I remove the eggs (artificially hatch eggs), they may spawn again in 3 days. If I let male care for eggs, they may spawn again in 5 days. I also found out that good parents will not eat fry - whether male or female. Male may attack fry when it's over 5-7mm not to eat, but to protect new nest/eggs.

I never tried cooked water because I read that it will destroy most of the beneficial properties of water. So your grandfather's method is something new that I might try someday.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you!

In fact, my couples have not shown much variety in spawning behavior before. Therefore, I was surprised by the courtships of this couple. But they are very interesting to watch for.

My grandfather does not allow me to experiment too much. Begins to swear a lot  But your experience is very interesting.

Yes, I think I'll give this couple some time. And then we'll see.

I think a pair of Bully and Caramel can give something interesting. Today I washed several bettas jars and found one pretty Bully's son:
























Does he have a orange ribbon in his fins? I think I definitely need to keep this one!

Sorry for the quality of the photo. I cut them out of the video.

A little strange, but the most interesting patterned males changed they colours in the last group. Flamenco, this male from the photo above and a few more examples proofing this. Most fish from this catch faded and there are about 10% of such bright ones as a result. Another 15-30% stayed monochromatic. I also noticed that those who started to change early almost all ended up becoming celaphanes or retained very few spots. Mable this is coincidence. I don't know...This is my first experience with koi batts and I try to notice such details.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

During my early betta years, there were no internet. I was given misleading information by vendors and books didn't explain in detail. I lost a few females in grade school. After a long break, during highschool years, I literally watched them for 24 hours - bettas and goldfish. I noticed they swam differently during breeding.

Experimenting became a habit until now. Sometimes I learn something unintentionally - like one male to 3 females. They were siblings grouped due to their size. And I also learned that it is more about size than age. 2.5 - 3 cm BO will spawn regardless of age (2 month old giant fry). 

Speaking of odd behavior; one female bred with 3 males. Usually when sexually mature, especially the males start fighting. But this batch were relatively docile and eventually I saw one female spawned with 3 males.

Though I may shift to other fish, bettas have always been my main passion - there is always something new I could learn about them.
. . . . . . 
Sorry for being off topic


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks! Don't worry, your stories are very interesting for me!

It's started a little easier for me. I have my grandpa. But he is mainly limited to advice only. When I wanted to start breeding batts, he discouraged me for a long time. He said that I'll couldn't handle with them and how will I sell them anyway? (we live in different cities). And that he won't take my fish for sale or to keep it. He always said that he's old, lazy and his guppies are enough for him ... But I started breeding batts anyway. And there are both successes and failures. But I am learning and I am interested in learning new things.

Grandpa also experimented a lot when he was younger. He had many breeder friends from the market where he traded.They exchange they knowledge. Grandpa had a lot of different fish in his entire life. But his passion has always been goldfishes. He worked on them for a long time. But now it is for him and he chose the easier-to-handle guppies.

Previously, he was skeptical about my batts, but now he is also interested. And recently he offered to help with sales. But the closer to next spring. In Russia, winters are quite cold and there is a high risk of overcooling the fish during transportation. That's why he said about next spring...


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Yesterday evening I did what my grandpa talked about water. The couple are very excited today. Maybe because of water or maybe because its rainy outside. I fed them and left them alone. Let's see what happens next.

Bully takes care of his childrens. I think they'll start swimming tomorrow. While they are still hanging in the nest.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Good luck on the young couple. I hope they spawn soon.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks!

Now (at lunchtime) the couple is active and I even saw eggs but ...

There is a suspicion that the female herself could give eggs without waiting for the male. Because it is in a different part of the box. There are about 10-20 eggs in total ... And she did not carry it to the nest. And the male ignores the eggs.

Therefore, I tried to do this:
Part of the eggs was carefully moved into the nest with a teaspoon. And on the contrary, I left the foam that adhered to the spoon near the female. I decided that maybe this would help them decide whether to use a large nest or this small one in another corner ...
I have a great temptation to take this eggs and put it to the Bully's nest.

I once did such an "experiment".

There were 2 couples.
1) A pair of Dumbos.
2) A pair of red superdeltas.

Both pairs were placed to spawning boxes on the same day. And they spawned at the same time. But the dumbo male watched the nest very poorly. Swam away and slept in the grass or doing what he wants... But I wanted dumbo bettas so much! This was my first brood of dumbo. Then I risked to transfer dambo eggs to the red male. And he accepted them! He decided that I destroyed his own nest and the eggs fall out. He quickly moved both his and dumbos eggs to another, safer place. He took good care of the eggs and frys. So I got my first 30 dumbo frys ... And the dumbo male was either lazy or already old. Because there were few fertilized eggs and he was lazy to take care of the nest.

A couple of hours later, I looked at how the couple was doing.

All the same. The female is confused. She stayed in the corner where those few eggs are. The male swims up and dances( looks mor angry then attractive ) but does not call her to his nest. And he leading her to her half of the box if she floats to him. Without aggression and harm to her. But at the same time, the male absolutely dont interested to those eggs that the female has in her "mini nest". But I can't see those several eggs that I put in his nest. His nest is empty. He probably ate them. The male does not try to mate with female. And the female apparently has eggs. (She is not "slender" as females after spawning).

What to do with them? Keep them together?

Grandfather offered to change the male or separate them for a week then try again. 

He explained that if the female is not allowed to spawn in the coming days, then she may develop to clogged...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I use to think the same way as your grandfather - if a ready to lay females was deprived of spawning, it may harm her. However, after reading several opinions on the topic, it is believed that the female will either release unfertilized eggs or reabsorb them.

Some males are just bad fathers and won't care for eggs and fry. In such cases I sometimes move eggs to a known good father that spawned on the same day. Or try artificially hatch them.

Once I had a male that didn't pick up eggs. The female gathered them and placed them on the opposite end, away from the nest. Then the male would move them to his nest. And the female would take them back . . . . The spawning process took extra long and they kept moving the eggs until I moved them to artificially hatch them.

I'd separate your young couple and recondition them for about a week and try again. If the female released her eggs, give them longer interval. If the male does the same thing on his second spawn, you should think about fostering the eggs or artificially hatch them on following spawns.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks. I thought about that too ...

I really hope that this kind of behavior will not become a habit for this male...

Then what would you advise? Give the female another male? Or take her away to rest?

From the other males that fit her in size, there is that marble dumbo. He is also 5 months old. But unlike Flamenco, he actively builds nests in his jar ol the time. Flamenco didn't do it.

I wanted to spawn this male, but after these 2 pairs and I thought about what female to choose ... But since this situation happened ...Should I try him with this female?


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I decided to remove the eggs from there (in the moment I wrote about it) But by the time I arrived there were no eggs. Most likely it was eaten. I suspect a male because the female tried to place eggs in the nest but not to eat.

I found only 3 eggs ... Of course it makes no sense to give them to the Bully. If there were more of them, then yes, but only 3 eggs, when he has a brood of frys of his own... As a result, I found a small container from under the sauce. I poured a little water into it (to a height of 1-2 millimeters), scooped up a little foam from the nest and put these 3 eggs there. Then put this container float in the spawning box. Now I will check the condition of this eggs and change the water daily. Maybe someone will hatch ...








I thought, what if there is some eggs in the box that didnt found by the male yet? I guess I shouldn't touch this box until theoretically the fry should hatch. Then I look carefully for the fry.

And if spawn this female with the other make then use another box with fresh water ... What do you think about it?

Edited:
I separate the male in his jar.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If you want his genes, try breeding him again with the same female. But just in case, since I don't trust this male (lol), breed another pair at the same time. Move most of Flamenco's eggs to the foster male . . . If they spawned on the same or following day. Otherwise, try your luck with artificially hatching them.

I said most so that you can see Famenco's behavior to decide future spawns. If he cares for his eggs, then he could be trusted to care for eggs on future spawns. Otherwise always prepare a foster or artificially hatch eggs.

But if Flamenco's genes isn't too important, then you can try a different male. Hopefully his substitute is a better father.
. . . . . . . . 
If the young couple didn't spawn, I doubt the eggs will hatch. But who knows, maybe they did. I hope they do hatch. 

Yes, there might be more eggs. If you have more tubs, it's best to breed in a new tub.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks.

Yes, I don't really trust him either. But I really like the combination of red and black in Flamenco. The spots themselves could be bigger and brighter, but this male is the only one with such a color from the entire brood. And as far as I can judge tere is no males with such colours from the second brood from his father (Bully)...
And so I need to try to spawn Flamenko again. But unlikely it will be in the near future.

Here this rascal:
















If Flamenco will not spawn properly , then I think his brother (that male with a ribbon in his fins) will replace him. He also has some black and red in color (and also blue and some kind of pink ...).

And I am thinking to spawning this female Aquarelle with this marble dumbo, which I mentioned above. Since she can carry the dumbo gene.But also give her a rest before that.
















Although probably he is more likely a carrier of the dumbo gene, since the "ears" are rather small.But these "ears" are well colored.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Well, I set Bully in his jar. I moved his fry into a smaller box and let it float on the surface of another box (there are no fish in it). I checked well all the water from the spawning box. The fry turned out to be about 40-45 or so. Not so many as it was in the previous broods of the Bully (each of the 3 broods had from 200 to 250 frys). Probably the male began to grow old. But I think it’s worth letting him go to spawning one more time. Perhaps with the same female. And of course give him a good rest before that.

And I think he can be a foster father in future. As he always very good with fry. 
























The frys are strong and some have already eaten something. There are very few weak ones (about 3 or 5). I fed them brine shrimp. I almost got in time of hatching the brine shrimp. But this time I had to give the one that hatched yesterday, since the one that hatched today still hangs on its shells and has not begun to swim.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't limit age of breeders. As long as they are still active and can flare for 3-6 hours, I would still breed them. However, I don't use big or deep tanks. The older the males, the smaller the breeding tub.

Since Flamenco is a "lucky" outcome, you should try him again.

Bully sounds like a great father. As long as he is still active, he can be bred.

Good luck on raising bully's fry


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Okay, I'll do that.

Grandpa taught that bettas reproductive age is from 4 to 10 months. And later the fish is usually sterile. And then older the male, then less fry he produced. Grandpa says that all his friends and he himself
always bred bettas from 4 to 10-12 months.
I heard that in other countries (in Thailand, for example) the Betta is bred for up to 2 years without any problems.

I don’t know why we have this differently. Is there too much difference in conditions of detention, climate and water?

Yes, Bully is a good male. Smart and with a good temper (despite his name). He always goes to spawning without delay and takes good care of eggs and fry. So I will spawn him more later.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Under 1 year is betta's "prime" age. Not sure, but I think this is mainly believed by those breeding fighters - they should be bred during their prime to produce better fighters . . . Dunno, I have never bred for fighting. And those breeding for commercial purposes want to produce as many fry as possible thus use younger fish.

Climate and temperature, I believe influences betta's lives. In cooler temperatures, they are said to live longer, some claiming 6-7 years. In warmer waters, they thrive actively but also increases their metabolism thus live shorter. Mine average 2-3 years, especially my breeders.

Older bettas tend to be less active - even worse in cooler water. Older produces less maybe because male no longer have sufficient energy to diligently care for eggs and fry. This is why I often use 1- 2 wide (not tall) gallon containers with about 2-3 inches of water. . . . . For younger bettas, I may breed in 50g long filled full. 

Again; IMO most important, is the male's stored energy. As long as he is active, he can be bred


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Yes, grandpa says that the higher the temperature, the faster the metabolism and the faster the fish ages. But for bettas, the best water temperature is 22-25 degrees (Celsium). 20 degrees is not very good. And below it is very bad, since the fish can get sick with a much higher probability than in warm water. All this is said by my grandpa.
And about the temperature from 20 and below I checked by myself. Not on purpose, of course. It was just that the room in which the fish was located was cool. But now it's already 3 months since I moved all the fish to another room. On the contrary, it is very warm there. Although I still keep waterheater for the fry, just in case.

Unfortunately, no, bettas also live in a cooler region for about 2-3 years (at least in Russia.) And more often 
even less if the owner has not bought a heater for the aquarium ...

I heard about fighting bettas. But in our country they were rarely (according to the grandpa). The reason is that they are not so beautiful. Grandfather said that breeders used to have a saying, "The fish you breed should please your eyes and your pockets."
Do customers like big, bright fish with long fins? So we will breed them! 
That's why there was no demand for fighting bettas...


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Grandpa said that the male Flamenco was probably not ready for spawning. Not physically but morally. Because this behavior is seen in young, inexperienced males. So grandpa advised same as you do - to spawn this pair again, but later.


Bully's fry eat well. Half of them for sure. Some gorge themselves to a full belly of brine shrimp. It's very good that they are active like that from the first days, because sometimes the broods of fry are weak or slow and they do not start eating well right away.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Fighters are basically plakats with thicker bodies and said to have slightly wider and sharper teeth. Here, they originally had traditional wild colors. But now there are a few breeds but all with rather dull colors.

I think fighting animals was a widely accepted tradition in most South East Asian countries. In my country it is now frowned upon by many and prohibited in most areas due to the gambling. But some still fight them thus fighters still sells.
. . . . . . . . . . 
Wow??? . . . . 20°C. 
Lol, mine die if kept in 25°C for long periods. I'm guessing it has something to do with how they were brought up. Since mine grew up in 28°C, they become lethargic if temperatures drop too low. I once tested - grew a few fry in 18-25°C (air conditioned room temperature), those that survived showed normal behavior.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Oh, I thought the fighting bettas were betta smaragdina. I saw a couple of videos from the thailand market where they show them and say thet those are fighters.

And as for the plakat bettas, I can say that they are not very popular here either. The reason is that most people like fish with large fins. And many buyers consider plakat ones to be females ... By the way, I understand why some breeders breed beautiful but problematic fish (the rosetails and doubletails). Because buyers take them with pleasere. Grandpa told me: "It will be difficult for you to get rid of the traces of rosetail in ypure lines, but you can always sell them if you have them in the brood."

Well, yes ... a temperature of 20 or below is a common occurrence in Russia ... Therefore, breeders try to keep fish in warm rooms almost all year (except summer). Grandfather says this is a very bad temperature for betta.
Unfortunately, a lot of fish die precisely from the cold. For example, if a batch of fish from Singapore or Thailand is ordered to a store, then most often half of the fish die from disease or cold (or both). Because not many buyers( and most sellers...)know how to keep the bettas or they probably too lazy to read about it in Internet. And when you explain everything to them, then, as a rule, they do not do it either ... And its sad.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Splendens to my knowledge is the most fierce out of all the betta species. They were specifically bred to fight for a very long time. Show/ornament bettas were developed fairly recently. And since then people maintained/recreated and improved mutations that appeared - DT, marble, giants, etc. People even crossed splendens to other betta species and created hybrids like metallic and dragons (most common hybrids). 

DTs are easier to work with compared to rose. All you have to do is breed them to single tails to avoid bent spine. You can also reduce bent spine by breeding good formed body DTs. You might still produce bent spines in early generataions but eventually you'll produce "clean" DTs.

Rose tail is a different story. It ruins fins and body (scales and color). Once it enters your line, it is very difficult to clean out. As I mentioned, after crossing them to non related non roses, I still couldn't clean them out after 4 generations. I had to sacrifice ALL from that line. I don't know how many generations it took breeders to create safe, clean roses. Nor do I know if their lines keep producing deformed individuals. . . . But I must admit those breeders do produce nicely formed roses.

Based on the premise that DT causes ray splitting, I tried breeding an 8ray to a DT and produced nice wide caudals. So now I advise those who like roses to use DTs instead of breeding a pair of 8 rays. The process may take longer, but much safer.

So if you can obtain a DT, I suggest you maintain them so that you can use them to occasionally improve your lines.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks for the interesting information!

No, I did not plan to breed DT. I don't have them. And to be honest, I like fish that do not have these genes more. Although I know that some breeders mix DT into their lines to enlarge the dorsal fin. After all, both the DTs themselves and their descendants have a dorsal fin almost as large as the ventral fin. But I probably won't risk doing it yet (and finding a breeder is still a task).

And about rosy-tailed ... Probably, my fish will not get rid of all traces of rosy-tails. Because it is quite difficult to find fish for breeding. You either have to breed what you have or rely on luck and buy fish in the market ... 

And the reason why it is difficult for us to find fish for breeding is simple - we have very few breeders left. My grandfather says that in the past 90% of the sellers in the market bred the fish that they sell. And the remaining 10% simply bought fish from someone and sold it as their own.

Now everything has changed and 90% of sellers buy fish in bulk (from Thailand or Singapore). They do not breed anything by themselves. They prefer to buy the cheapest fish they can find for sale. And to raise the price for it 10 times ... They do not care about fish and it die in hundreds. Those guys dont care because they buy fish in large bags and every week or so. 
About 8% sellers also buy fish for sale, but they choose good-quality ones and keep them well (I try to take new fish from such ones). 

And the remaining 2% are those who breed fish themselves ...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Considering the climate in Russia, perhaps buying tropical fish from Asia is more profitable. They may raise prices to cover those they lose. . . . little to no risk compared to breeding your own fish - not to mention the capital for equipments.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Well, I checked the box in which Flamenco and Aquarelle spawned. The miracle did not happen and the fry are not there. This means either they did not mate, or the male simply ate the eggs. Those 3 eggs also died. Maybe I did something wrong or they were not fertilized. Do not know.

The Bully's fry are doing well. I changed the water for them today. There are 47 of them. Some eat really good and some not quite yet. But in general, everything is fine.




This is probably the case. But often the Asian fish already comes here in bad condition. Sick or with parasites. In addition, the transportation itself over such distances causes stress to the fish, which can make them sick. So, sellers sometimes lose more than profits (especially if a sick fish infects another). But overall yes, it is much easier.

Although the fish raised by the breeders are healthier and have already been adapted to our conditions. And usually they leaves in our conditions longer. If the owner himself does not kill it out of ignorance or stupidity, of course. Some shopkeepers are willing to take such fish. They are called "home breds".


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello everyone! 


The fry from the Bully grow well. 


I decided to show another brood. From Harlequin and Caramel. Both plakat koi. I have no idea how exactly the varieties of their colors are called.

Here is the Harlequin: 









And Caramel: 









Their kids. Born on September 16.There are 160 of them. 

































They live in a large plastic box. But since the walls of the box are dull white, I decided to show some of the fry in the jar.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello everyone!

Bully's fry grow well. 

I wanted to ask for advice. The female Aquarelle that spawned unsuccessfully with Flamenco really wants to spawn. She tries to build mini-nests and dances in front of any male she sees.

But I'm dont really want to spawn her with Flamenco again. I mean right now. So I thought, maybe I should spawn her with this male with a ribbon? (For convenience, I will call him Ribbon).
Yes, he is a little smaller than the female but very determined. As for the color, I can’t say that I like everything (for example, I would like more red in his colour). But only he has such scarlet ribbon from the whole brood. He is the brother of Flamenco and Aquarell.

I do not know what can come from this male. But perhaps a variations of koi with red in color? Ribbon's red color under different lighting seems to be orange or scarlet.
They already interested with each other.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Or is it worth spawning her with this male? He is the carrier of the dumbo gene. With the help of this female, I thought to fix the marble in the dumbo line and adding some red color. Aquarelle, in theory, can carry the dumbo gene (her mother is from a dumbo brood but without "ears").








This male is calmer in character and constantly builds nests. I also have a marble female and she also a dumbo carrier, but without red in color.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I would breed with ribbon because he is more aggressive which IMO is better for aquarelle. Plus he carries more distinct red genes compared to the other guy. And as a bonus, hopefully he produces


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks! So I'll try Ribbon.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I put a couple of Ribbon + Aquarelle to spawning. Equipped a box for them. This time without a raft. So far, the male is looking for a place for the nest. They have no aggression towards each other. We'll see what happens next.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Well, Ribbon is building and improving his nest. Aquarelle have become "round" and I think she have some eggs. She is really interested in Ribbon and his nest, but he is not really happy about it. Probably he thinks the nest is unfinished. And therefore he drives the female away from the nest. I think that they will spawn tomorrow.


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Ribbon protects and improves his nest. He drives female away from the nest. There are no eggs in the nest and the female is still "round" in appearance. Well, then we'll wait until tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow they will go for spawning?


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## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello everyone!

Well, the news so far:

The Bully fry grow well. Soon I will move them to a larger box. There are 42 left from 47. 


And the pair Ribbon + Aquarelle is still the same ... The male builds and guards the nest, but doesn't let the female near the nest ... There are no eggs in the nest. Probably this time the male is not ready for spawning? Or he doesn't really like the female? She is slightly larger than him.


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