# Establishing standards for betta fish care at BettaFish.com



## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Hi everyone,

We thought it might be helpful to post a Best Practices thread that prescribed the minimum standard of betta husbandry we would allow members to advocate here. It would be clearly noted that it was just the _minimum_, of course. :razz: While we can all agree that there is more than one right way to keep a betta fish, I think most of us can also agree that certain ways are wrong. We'd like to see that line defined for our community to make it easier for inexperienced betta fish keepers to know where it is.

We thought we'd open a dialog about what everyone thinks the minimum standard of care we advocate as a community should be so that we can reach a consensus and hold the community to that standard for the betterment of the the community, the fish keepers who are a part of it, and, most importantly, for betta fish.

Please share your thoughts in this thread.

Thanks so much,
The BettaFish.com Team :smile:


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## xswornxoffxjello (Mar 18, 2010)

I think that that's a really good idea.


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Thanks! What are your thoughts on what our standards should be?


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## Wildfire (Aug 6, 2010)

I'd say, a tank of at least 2 gallons is necessary for your betta!


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## Amour (Jun 26, 2010)

Always use water conditioner with water and any water change.

Don't use plastic plants because they tear bettas fins.


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## Wildfire (Aug 6, 2010)

Really? I use plastic plants - I read that if you test it and it's soft enough, it'll be fine. They say to use the 'pantyhose' test, by running said plastic plant down the length of it. If it catches, the plant is dangerous for your betta.


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## RandomFish (Jun 16, 2010)

- Maintain water quality. If you can't afford a water testing kit and therefore can't monitor ammonia levels (and therefore wouldn't know if your tank is cycled) then you should be doing 100% water changes several times a week, depending on the size of the tank.

- Maintain steady and comfortable water temperature. You would need a thermometer at the very least.

- Do not use Melafix.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

*Here's what I can contribute. =]

At least a 1 gallon enclosure.* Bettas are 2.5 inch fish and should really be kept in at least 2.5 gallons according to the 1 gallon per inch rule. But if a 1 gallon is all you have access to then it's all you have access to. J_ust make sure you follow all the other rules, most importantly the water changing and cleaning rules._ The reason I say at least 1 gallon is because if it was less it would be almost impossible to heat consistently unless you live in a warm area, and if you did the betta still wouldn't have much room at all to swim. An inactive betta can become a sick betta really easily.
*
Use Water Conditioner:* _At every water change._ Water Conditioner removes Chlorine, Chloramines, and heavy metals; all of which are extremely poisonous to all fish. 
Unless you're on well water and you really know your well water (like you've had it tested or you've been using it to keep fish for years) and know it's safe, you need to use it to remove heavy metals, chlorine, and chlorimines. It also helps fish to develop a stress coat. It does nothing but good and there are cheap and long lasting dechlorinators out there.
*
Appropriate Water Changes:* _Water changes are necessary because toxic ammonia and nitrates build up in your tank and they can poison and kill your fish (no matter what kind you own)._ Specifically to bettas, they're fins melt away (fin rot) if the water is not changed often enough.
100% daily for 1 gallons and 100% multiple times a week for uncycled tanks of greater size. 
Also whatever the appropriate number is for a cycled tank depending on the size.

*Thermometer and monitoring of temperature:* Bettas are _Tropical_ fish originating in Thailand. _They require warm water to live_ a healthy life and to live their entire (or most of it anyway) lifespans. The water should be at the very least 76*F (I have no idea what that'd be in Celsius. =/) as if it falls below that their immune systems can be compromised.
*
Heater if necessary*. If you need it to keep the water temp above 76 then you need it. These are tropical fish, they _require_ warm water.

*Do NOT keep male betta(splendens) together in an undivided tank. Do NOT keep male and female betta(splendens) together in an undivided tank (for longer than the amount of time it takes for the pair to spawn) and REMEMBER that betta(splendens) are AGRESSIVE territorial fish when choosing tank mates if any.* Bettas, particularly betta splendens which are the typical pet betta sold in stores, _are aggressive territorial fish by nature._ Captive breeding has increased their aggression. Males should NEVER be kept together and males and females should NOT be kept together for long periods of time!
*
Feeding: *A betta's stomach is about the size of their eye. It doesn't take much to feed them. _About 2 pellets twice daily is enough. Or 2 Blood worms twice a day. When feeding unless you're using live or frozen food, let the food soak in some tank water for a few minutes (2-4) so that it becomes completely water logged. _Betta pellets and frezze dried foods expand when wet like rice does. If you eat a bunch of uncooked rice, it'll expand in your stomach and intestines causing major bloat issues and pain. The same thing happens to bettas when you let them eat pellets that haven't been soaked.
You should have one day a week where you "fast" or do not feed your bettas.
They can go for up to two weeks without food. DO NOT GO LONGER just because they can doesn't mean they should it can cause healt problems. So if you need to go on a week long trip and don't have anyone to feed them or change their water, feed them a pellet more at each feeding the day before, do a water change right before you leave, and leave them unfed for the week.
*
Appropriate water changing technique, Aka proper acclimatization:*
You need to add small amounts of new tank water to an almost empty container of old tank water that the fish has just enough room to be covered in.
Once the container is nearly full, float it in the new, heated tank water for the temperatures to stabilize. Then once the temperatures of the enclosure's water and the tank water are the same, release the fish slowly.

*NEVER clean your tank or anything related to your fish keeping habits with soap:* When you need to clean something fish keeping related use only hot water or boiling water to do so._
If you NEED to use anything other than hot water, use vinegar, and if that doesn't work then use a SMALL amount of bleach._ Once you've use bleach rinse several times with really hot water, and if you cleaned your tank with bleach or your substrate then let the item sun bathe for a few days to a week to be safe.
*
Test your non-living (and sometimes living) decor with panty hose.* _ If it snags, catches, or runs your panty hose then it's unsuitable for your bettas fins and can rip them._ Even if it only catches or snags and doesn't run it wouldn't be good for your betta. I know from experience. I was one of the new kids that didn't test her plastic plants. I know better now. =[

*READ THE FAQ THAT IS BOLDED AT THE TOP OF THIS SECTION OF THE FORUM ALONG WITH ANYTHING ELSE THAT HAS THE WORD STICKY IN THE TITLE. *Unless it's a crises and you need the information right that second from another person, chances are that you'll get all the info you need in the FAQ and other stickies. They have the best information you can get. Most likely if you ask a question on here we will respond with something we learned from the sticky. All the basics and requirements are covered there.
*
If your betta gets sick:* _Start a thread in the Diseases and Emergencies section of the forum *immediately*._ In your thread include all the information you can about how you take care of your fish and what symptoms they are showing. Pictures help but it's understandable if you can't get any. Someone will most likely be able to help you or will refer you to someone who can.

*Cycling*: Is not necessary but is highly recommended if you have anything 2 gallons and up. It makes it so that you never have to do 100% changes because bacteria that turn toxic ammonia and nitrites into relatively harmless (in small quantities) nitrates. There are two main methods of cycling: Fish-in and Fish-less. Fish-less is preferred on this forum as it is the most humane way to cycle a tank.

*Filter:* Also not necessary but very much recommended for tanks of 2 gallons and up. They keep your water cleaner for you so that you don't have to do water changes as often.
_It is reccomended to have a filter that has biological filteration at the least. Mechanical filtration is viewed as necessary by many (such as myself) and Chemical filteration is an added bonus._
Adjustable ones are best but many of us don't have adjustable filters and simply make do with different methods of baffling.



That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure I missed something big and important but I just can't think of what right now! XD


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## RandomFish (Jun 16, 2010)

^ whoa nice post! Methinks this thread can be concluded with that lol


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

XD Thanks! I tried to put what I feel is really important in there. =]


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

Hrm there are a few things I do not do or totally agree with, like filters in my 5 gallons. I find that my boys don't like it and seem healthier and less stressed without them. They bite their fins when they have a filter and my filters were as gentle as possible.
But I am very anal about my water changes...


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## JKfish (Apr 8, 2010)

- Don't even think about putting schooling fish in with a betta in anything less than a 10 gallon, otherwise they won't have room to get away from one another.

- bamboo is not an aquatic plant. If you insist on using it in your tank, don't submerge anything above the leaves.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

IMO

1.5 gallons should be the ABSOLUTE minimum and quite honestly even that shouldn't be long term. Remember when getting a tank that your gravel, heater, filter, plants, and decorations detract from the actual volume of water the tank holds. The smallest tank that I would consider acceptable for long term is 2.5 gallons.

Heaters are a necessity. The only exception would be members who live in tropical environments. 76*F (24.4*C) should be the minimum temperature to keep bettas.

Plenty of hiding spaces should be provided. Take caution against anything that could tear the fish's fins. Personally I think plastic plants are fine as long as you thoroughly test them out prior to adding the fish.

Regardless of whether you cycle or not EVERYONE should have an appropriate test kit. 99% of the posts in the betta emergency section could be avoided by simply keeping an eye on your water parameters. Along with that appropriate water changes should be done.

When it comes to tankmates think of what will make the fish happiest instead of what you would like to see. Acceptable tank mates should be mid/low dwelling fish, snails, or shrimp. Keep the husbandry needs of EVERY animal in your tank in mind. What works for bettas may not work for other species.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I think that if you place strict standard and expectation on people that it would cause them to go elsewhere or afraid to ask for help because they don't meet the standard. Or worse, lie..just so they fit in and you can't help a person when they lie or at least it make it harder.

There are all level of fish keeping and if a person is made to feel that because they don't have a certain tank or certain test kits, conditioner etc... that they can't be a member here or are a bad fish keeper.

As with anything that is a hobby there are many levels, not everyone can afford all the stuff that some people feel a hobbyist should have.

I think that a forum should promote good fish keeping habits- not fish keeping stuff...this is to encourage a new hobbyist to grow and learn and then one day get all the stuff and know how to use and understand it.

You crawl before you walk and walk before you run and if a person is expected to run in the beginning then they may quit before they fail.......


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> I think that if you place strict standard and expectation on people that it would cause them to go elsewhere or afraid to ask for help because they don't meet the standard. Or worse, lie..just so they fit in and you can't help a person when they lie or at least it make it harder.
> 
> There are all level of fish keeping and if a person is made to feel that because they don't have a certain tank or certain test kits, conditioner etc... that they can't be a member here or are a bad fish keeper.
> 
> ...



I know the hearts of people here on the forum are in the right place, but I have to agree 100% with OFL. I think these "strict" rules of betta keeping could possibly scare people away or, worse yet, keep them from asking for help.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I don't think Admin is saying that we are going to have rules for how bettas are kept. There are going to be rules for keeping members from advocating certain care..

For instance no one would want us to advocate keeping bettas in 1/2 gallon containers (long term I mean) or keeping male/female or male/male tanks.. no one is saying you CAN"T do that.. but we shouldn't advocate that.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> I don't think Admin is saying that we are going to have rules for how bettas are kept. There are going to be rules for keeping members from advocating certain care..
> 
> For instance no one would want us to advocate keeping bettas in 1/2 gallon containers (long term I mean) or keeping male/female or male/male tanks.. no one is saying you CAN"T do that.. but we shouldn't advocate that.


When Admin. sets rules on what I can or cannot say-then I will go some place else....I have the right to my opinion and if it is not welcome here I am sure it will be welcome on another forum..........


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Yea, I'd have to disagree with that as well 1fish2fish. I'm knew to this forum inparticular, but throughout my forum history generally things that are frowned upon (like you suggest) are also going to natural deter people from advocating things int he first place. In effect, the forums nature from there deters people from doing such, but still allows the freedom of speech OF such. I mean, if you were on a really popular forum that was all about "Making Icecream!" and someone clown said "well I think you should make ice cream in tempretures of a 100+", do you really think that person would hold much sway in the first place? Or even recognition? *Shrugs* 

From saying that though my own thoughts on this subject are that it shouldn't be listed as a set list of rules that -must- be followed or advocated. Perhaps this has been worded wrong, or interpreted incorrectly, from us all from the begining. It should be more read that this is a way to 'standardized' what the general consenses is. That way we don't have new comers torn between 2 opposing opinions that both seem correct.

For instance, if we have group A constantly saying "Do this" and group B is saying "Do this", it can become frustrating for a new person to pick a side, especially when having little to no previous experience to begin with. This with simple turn the colors Black and White to a gray. This middle ground is essential, imo. Although it should be stated somewhere that while this meets the the criteria (notice I didn't say "the proper" or "the correct" way, seeing as there are multiple 'correct' or 'proper' way) it is not the only way to effectively care for a betta fish, but a damn good way to start.

Other then that, Wally has a very good start to producing an adequite way of caring for a betta!

With gallon size, I think minimum should be 1.5, and prefered 2g (as according to most, if not all, X-gallon per fish rules)


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

Oldfishlady, I do love you. Earlier, I was debating whether or not to make a post much in the same vein as yours, but was too hesitant and wasn't sure how to properly approach the situation. That said, I think you've said everything beautifully and make a really important point:_ this isn't a black and white issue. _

As a community, we should work towards helping people with what they have. To provide appropriate advice and information that is specific to their situation - not apply a finite 'standard' to all scenarios by which to judge. There will always be a difference of opinion, and it should be accepted, respected. 

The fact is, a betta can thrive or suffer in a half gallon of water the same way it can thrive or suffer in five, ten, or twenty-five gallons. It's not so much the volume of water as it is the expected maintenance that matters. Obviously, smaller volumes require more strict upkeep, but if one is managing then who are we to criticize proper care?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Well said Kittles......


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

I might kill you for the gaga gif though...


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

I don't see a need for setting 'standards'. A forum is a place to discuss and learn. We all choose who we want to learn from...some info goes in, the other I hear but don't listen to


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

So if someone comes on here saying they want to keep their bettas in THIS..










.. what? We're supposed to say "Well hon thats fine, just make sure you do the water changes"... I'm sorry but we should be advocating what will be best for the fish. It is the users choice on whether or not they take the advice or the members choice whether or not to offer it.

I'm not talking rules. I'm talking proper husbandry.. long term. There are special circumstances of course but for the most part I can't see anyone who would advocate keeping a fish in that long term. But the forum as a community should stand for proper husbandry practices.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

I think its actually 2 diffirent topics... Your saying that a person creates a topic saying they've kept there fish in that container (as shown). This post is to (well atleast imo right now) notify someone of what meets the criteria. 

If someone DID make a post like that, saying that they had there fishes in that, then feel free to scold them o.o I would! Mabe... dunno... But otherwise, its 2 diffirent topics.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't think we need to "scold" the person. We should tell them nicely that it's too small and that a bigger tank is recommended. Or you can tell them very rudely " what are you, stupid? Don't you know that a tank that size is a death trap?"


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Kokonoko said:


> I might kill you for the gaga gif though...


AGREED!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't think these will be rules that members HAVE to go by,I think they're meant to be guidelines.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

So, going on the thought that this is simply a standardizing guideline, what else might there be that can be added to what has already been stated? Like corrections, additional info, maybe even alternative methods (As to show other safe approaches for carrying for betta fish). Wally, along with others, have been a big contribution so far! I only wish I had the experience and knowledge to add more to it! Also, debating isn't a bad thing when it comes to this, as long as its kept with an open mind the willingness to find the middle grounds.

From my many years of past experience on other forums, it takes a few hours to make an awesome guide post. It takes a few weeks and the colaboration of many to create an epicly amazing guide post!

That being said, I think that the tank size should meet 1.5g. The size is already going against the often-followed x-gallons of water per size of fish states, but it is also abvious that a fish CAN be comfortable in this condition.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

New Member: "Hi! I'm about to get a betta fish and I would like to know what are the basic items/absolute NEEDS for a betta fish?"

Old Member: *points to Betta Standards thread*

Eliminates the need for all the older members to go in and add eveeeeerything they think newbie needs. Everyone can just point to one place.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

How did I miss this thread for so long? I have waited for this. 

All I can say is: Finally. I think it's time to understand that while some things are debatable based on anecdotal evidence, there are certain things that must be acknowledged by the entire community as bare minimum standards. "Everyone has their own way of doing things" is not an acceptable argument for keeping a fish in subpar conditions. There are some acceptable ways of keeping bettas that are simply impractical for the average owner, for instance. General guidelines will make it less confusing for new people and improve the lives of many bettas. Some of this confusion has lead to the many illnesses I see being reported every day on this forum--some that could have been avoided with proper care. I don't understand why people would be reluctant to set care standards when there are obviously acceptable ways of keeping bettas and unacceptable ways. 

Honestly, I could go on for pages and pages--but below I will discuss the most immediate concerns I have, assuming the reader is new to fish keeping and betta keeping. 

First we must acknowledge betta behavior and provide people with an obvious, but crucial disclaimer:

Male bettas should under no circumstances be allowed to share the same space as other male bettas. The size of the container, the personality of the male, the density of the decorations do not matter. There is nothing that makes the cohabitation of males acceptable permanently or temporarily.

Male bettas and female bettas should never be allowed to share the same space with each other unless they have been properly conditioned for the purpose of breeding. After breeding has occurred, the female must be removed immediately. Even if all the precautions are followed during the breeding process, both males and females often end up seriously injured or killed during breeding. Breeding is only for the most experienced and expert of betta keepers.

In some situations, females can cohabitate with one another, but only under very strict and specific conditions that should be researched thoroughly. Keeping females together in a "sorority" is only recommended for experienced betta keepers with tanks at least 10 gallons or larger.

Bettas present a unique behavioral challenge due to their violent past. For the last 700 years or more, bettas have been selectively bred to kill each other with the highest efficiency. This fighting instinct is still very present in the showy colorful and fancy-finned bettas of today. Domesticated bettas are extremely species aggressive due to human influence, and can be aggressive to any other tank mates placed with them. Because of this, being in sight of other bettas, and even the association with more peaceful tankmates can be very stressful to a betta--the keeper must use caution and common sense while acknowledging the peculiarities of betta behavior. Moreso than most varieties of fish, each betta is an individual, and one must have a backup plan when considering keeping a betta with other tank mates. In many cases--the betta will be happiest by his or herself.

This may seem obvious to many members, but lately there have been multiple threads in which people have unsafely experimented with keeping bettas together in very dangerous and improper ways. 

Bettas are very easy to care for, their list of needs is short and simple: good water quality, adequate heat, proper feeding and a diverse diet, space to exercise and express natural behavior, and environmental enrichment. 

How these needs are fulfilled in many ways depend on how you choose to house your betta. Many people feel tempted by the tiny (under 2 gallons) tanks and bowls they see near the betta section--their size, funky designs, and low price tags make these tanks very alluring. They think "This is what I can afford now, and it has a picture of a happy fish on it, it'll be ok." however, these tanks are unsuitable for a variety of reasons. 

1. Water Quality

In tiny tanks, water quality quickly becomes an issue. The new fishkeeper should understand that unlike people and other animals, fish excrete waste differently. They poop, but they also constantly excrete ammonia through their gills constantly. In nature, beneficial bacteria break down this ammonia into much less toxic compounds and the rest is consumed by plants or diluted by run-off and rain. In a closed system where none of these elements are present, the ammonia simply builds up and causes the fish to die a slow, painful death.

The only way to get rid of ammonia in these tanks is by regular 100% water changes. A 2 Gallon tank must be changed every 3-4 days, a 1 gallon tank must be changed every 2-3 days, and tanks under a gallon must be changed every day. For the average person, changing and cleaning a tank every day, or even every other day is a lot of work--it can be unpractical for many lifestyles. Also, consider that we are all human, and we are all imperfect, and are much more likely to make a mistake or forget with such a small margin of error; at the fish's expense. 

2. Heating 

Bettas are tropical fish and their entire metabolism is dependent upon warm, stable temperatures for them to be comfortable, healthy, and active. Because of this, heaters are not optional. Even if your house is warm all year round, you always run the risk of a cold spell or very cool night temperatures seriously compromising your betta's health. Quality heaters with adjustable thermostats are typically designed for tanks with a minimum size of 2 gallons. For this reason, 2 gallons is the minimum size for permanently housing bettas. 

3. Space to Exercise and Express Natural Behaviors

Obesity is one of the leading causes and contributors to death in bettas. Tanks that don't provide horizontal swimming space because of their size are not suitable homes for bettas since they don't contribute to their physical health. The small size also leaves little room for the fish to patrol and guard his or her territory, and little room for decorations to hide in when the fish is feeling insecure. 

4. Environmental Enrichment

Just like other animals, bettas need environmental enrichment to keep from becoming bored and neurotic. Larger tanks allow them to explore and interact with different items and allow more space for decorations and other elements that can help entertain your betta. 

*Exceptions*

Breeders often keep many fish of stunning health and quality in tanks less than two gallons. Breeders and the average person getting started in this hobby are in totally different situations and have very different lifestyles. What works for a breeder is impractical for the average person. Breeders conquer the above challenges because they are very involved in the hobby, they have devoted fishrooms that are heated on a thermostat, eliminating the need for individual heaters. They use drip systems and betta barracks that don't need to be subjected to constant changes, and if they do not, keep in mind that these people devote a lot of time to water changes and proper sanitation of their bowls. 

Larger tanks are not much more expensive--generally, the larger the tank, the more gallonage you get for your money. Although keeping bettas without cycling the tank, provided that the tank is kept clean with frequent 100% water changes, is a fully acceptable method of keeping them, larger tanks can be cycled, and after which, require much less maintenance. The average person is much less likely to forget or make a mistake that ends up having serious consequences when the tank is of a reasonable size.

Honestly, I don't think there is any excuse for keeping a betta in a tiny, unheated container. The fact that it was "all you could afford at the time" is lazy, lame, and selfish. If you cannot afford to house a fish in a way that contributes to its health and well-being, you should leave it at the store, and save up your money until you can afford to keep one properly. Doing it on the cheap to begin with is doing yourself and the betta a disservice--you will have spent far less money and gone through far less grief if you simply saved up your money and did it right the first time. 

If you made the mistake of going into the store and getting tricked by a misinformed employee or the unethical marketing strategies of many of the pet product companies out there, you should return the overpriced and unsuitable products and buy a sterilite/rubbermaid plastic storage bin. These are not as pretty as many of the tiny torture chamber tanks, but they are extremely suitable for taking care of fish. For the refund money you obtain from returning your bowl, you can have a 4 gallon bin for $3, and likely be able to afford a nice adjustable heater to go with it.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Very good and informative post Adastra! Although, it is a little long, wondering if theres anyway to condense it slightly more? I think 2g could be a nice cut off point for standard care, but again it shouldn't seem like its a "forced" thing. The only thing I could critique (of my own opinion of it again):

-At no point should this be to critisize the prefered size of a tank. It should be informative for sure! But not discouraging.

-Some parts which are particularly wordy might want to be 'dumbed down'. "Books R Hrd to anderstaned", but no seriously lol There are a few parts that are slightly to vague due to large word usage, and no thats NOT contradictive!!! lol

-As stated: Condensing, in the interest of keeping new people reading, and not thinking its all just filler (Although I understand the need for it myself, but then again I'm also a reader)


Edit:
Which brings me to the point that this should have an easy-to-read index at the very begining too.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

Oh. Were we supposed to actually design our posts in the format of the final standard article? I was just arguing for what should be designated as the minimum tank size and the fact that a note on betta behavior should be included. 

Honestly, we could write a book on betta care. I think the best way to organize it would be a very general article discussing betta needs, disclaimers, and the products you need to get started. I've gone through a lot of "Just Getting Started!" threads, and what people usually end up wanting is a list of things they should buy, and a simple explanation of why one product will help them more than another.

A separate thread should discuss proper housing and how to maintain that housing, another should discuss proper diet, one with common illnesses and their causes, and another should discuss tank mates. That way as the new person goes through each of the forums, they can get an overall view of betta care in chapters rather than going up against a huge block of text when all they want to look at is a very narrow topic. They are more likely to go to the forum whose name corresponds with their question than they are to refer to one sheet at the beginning. Say one person comes in, and all they look at is the Betta Habitats forum, because that's the origin of their question. They'll immediately see the sticky and have a better idea of what to do.

I would also love it if there were disclaimers in the breeding section. Too many people jump in there without any idea what they're doing.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

I hate to double post, but I just had the opportunity to read some of the earlier posts, and I would like to say this in response:

As for the idea that the minimum standards of care are somehow restricting what people can say and putting too much pressure on new people, I disagree. There are other forums with stated care standards that thrive, and are a great influence on many people. 

Think of it this way--someone asks a question about what tank size is appropriate for a betta, they get answers from someone who hasn't kept bettas long who says one gallon tanks are fine, after all, breeders do it. Another person says one gallon tanks are unacceptable, you should only keep bettas in 5 gallon containers or more. Another person says two gallons is the bare minimum. The new person has no idea who to believe, they all gave good reasons, but the first person who gave the worst suggestion would likely win out because, let's face it, one gallon tanks are cheap and novel. It's also possible that the person might just give up and accept that you just can't trust all the crazy stuff you hear on the internet. If we are united on what we recommend we will be much more effective in promoting betta care. 

I've seen plenty of people acknowledge what they did wrong with their first betta very graciously. As long as we are kind and sympathetic to one another they will understand that they can make it better and more importantly, that they should. Perhaps if we publish standards of care, they won't come to realize that they were doing something wrong while posting in the Diseases and Emergencies forum.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I <3 u Adastra. You say everything I want to say only much more eloquently.

I definitely agree that there should be a disclaimer at the top of the breeding section and I'd be happy to write one up if asked. I've learned first hand what jumping into breeding can do to you and your babies (even though I did do my research).


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

Thank you for saying that, I really hope that we'll be able to make some good, informative, and comprehensive articles for this forum that will hopefully stop the flow of bad advice. 

Right now someone in Diseases and Emergencies is telling someone with a lethargic fish that they don't need a heater. Sorry to sound ranty to everyone else here, but I do the best I can to give people the best advice possible and say the same things over and over and over--and still it's like everything I say goes in one ear and right out the other. I get really frustrated, but no matter how frustrated I am I can't let that show because it will sound abrasive to the people who really need help. Telling someone their lethargic fish doesn't need a heater is just--it doesn't make any sense to me..


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

What should be said in the disclaimer?


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

I don't think we need two.


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

I agree with Kittles. In my mind there is no point in setting standards if we already have. Maybe we sould set breeding standards and tank standards seperatly in the forums.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

dramaqueen said:


> What should be said in the disclaimer?


Just the basic stuff, really. My main concern with the breeding forum is someone casually perusing through the threads will think, "Well, my two fish are really awesome and beautiful, maybe if I put them in tanks next to each other and overfeed them for a few weeks, they'll breed like guppies!" 

I don't think we should type out instructions on popular breeding techniques, I think it's necessary to state what some of us would find to be obvious, including the risks involved (spawning injuries, shortened lifespan, post-spawning death of the male due to starvation and exhaustion), the expense, the huge amount of time and effort required, and some of the dirty details such as culling and culturing live foods that might deter less serious individuals from attempting it. It should urge people to be patient and assess their living situation (whether they are independent, have disposable income, have time on their hands, transportation, etc.) before thinking about whether or not they should breed their fish. 

I think the document should have a darker tone than usual, it should sound serious, because it is serious issue. However, I do think it should end on a light note of encouragement--we should encourage people not to just research techniques, which is important unto itself, but we should encourage people to research genetics, talk to other breeders, become IBC members, look at IBC standards, and look at what other breeders are doing to work with those standards or outside those standards to create something new.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

The FAQ is a good start but I think it needs an overhaul. For one thing there are some typos and as that is generally the first thing new comers to the site read that should probably be edited. Also I think some of the things passed over in the thread should be emphasized like NOT keeping males with males or males with females. I think a link to the cycling sticky should be provided in the section about tank maintenance. Also it mentions that 100% water changes should not be done but most people agree that on uncycled (unplanted) tanks that are small (less than 5 gallons) 100% changes are necessary to fully remove the ammonia/fish waste. 

Like I said I think its a great start but I think it should be overhauled and fleshed out. I also think it should be closed so people don't feel overwhelmed by the 123 replies. IMO I would also like to see the General care separated from the FAQ into two different threads with the emphasis on the care.


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

Kittles said:


> The fact is, a betta can thrive or suffer in a half gallon of water the same way it can thrive or suffer in five, ten, or twenty-five gallons. It's not so much the volume of water as it is the expected maintenance that matters. Obviously, smaller volumes require more strict upkeep, but if one is managing then who are we to criticize proper care?


Perhaps I misunderstood, but I got the impression that the OP intended for this thread to be a place of reference for those newbies who have little (or no) experience to first visit, to learn the most important things they need to know right off the bat.

I think your statement above is a perfect example of exactly what the OP intended (again, I'm only guessing, but I think that is what was intended).

*Your statement tells the newbie that regular maintenance is necessary, and the amount of maintenance varies based on the size of the tank* (as well as the types of plants, filters, fish, etc)

*And that tiny little piece of information is far more critical to a Betta Splenden's health and happiness than the actual size of the tank, because the size of the tank is all based on 'opinion'* (though my opinion is that it should be in a bigger tank, because I hate to see anything in a 'confined' space, and because the 1" per 1 gallon rule exists, from what I understand, because that allows the amount of waste the fish produces to follow the traditional water change 'rules' - not because it allows the fish to 'exercise and be happy'. I personally believe the minimum for any fish should be 10 gallons, and even that is small - because they don't have that much room to swim around - though they do get more exercise than in a 5 gal...

Again, perhaps I misunderstood, but I believe this thread was intended to be about agreed upon facts - things like, Betta Splendens are tropical and therefore require heat; min temp should be 76deg F, and 'ammonia can kill them, as can nitrites, so careful monitoring of water parameters is necessary, and proper maintenance will make for a happy fishkeeping experience'. 

Opinions don't matter if you're dishing out facts - but then, maybe I misunderstood.


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

Adastra said:


> I've gone through a lot of "Just Getting Started!" threads, and what people usually end up wanting is a list of things they should buy, and a simple explanation of why one product will help them more than another.
> 
> A separate thread should discuss proper housing and how to maintain that housing, another should discuss proper diet, one with common illnesses and their causes, and another should discuss tank mates. That way as the new person goes through each of the forums, they can get an overall view of betta care in chapters rather than going up against a huge block of text when all they want to look at is a very narrow topic. They are more likely to go to the forum whose name corresponds with their question than they are to refer to one sheet at the beginning. Say one person comes in, and all they look at is the Betta Habitats forum, because that's the origin of their question. They'll immediately see the sticky and have a better idea of what to do.


I concur, this would have been a god-send when I first came here a week ago. I did eventually find most of the information I needed/wanted - here - but I am also visiting a couple of other sites (I don't just blindly accept the opinions on one site without verifying that info elsewhere) - and it would have been nice to see everything Adastra wrote in that post right off the bat. 

I did read the FAQ v3.0 and found plenty of good info, but I think it would be even better to have a few of the most important rules at the forefront - and *IMO, the ammonia/nitrite (water quality) issue* (which ties in with tank size and the amount of fish in the tank and the amount of maintenance required for said tank based on the above and other factors like live plants, beneficial bacteria, etc) *should be the very first thing on the list.* It would allow people to decide from there on out what size tank they might want, and why.


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

Adastra said:


> Telling someone their lethargic fish doesn't need a heater is just


irresponsible, and cruel.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

I was thinking more along the lines of ignorant--after all, the person probably just got the wrong impression somewhere along the way. He or she probably had good intentions. 

I don't really understand your post, Ashkeldir, that is in response the post made by Kittles. Are you trying to argue the weight of opinion over fact? Or perhaps that these "facts" are also subject to opinion based on factors other than water quality? If the latter, then I would agree. 

After all, there is more to it than water quality--the fish needs adequate heat, space to exercise and express its natural behavior, and environmental enrichment. In containers less than two gallons, heating is often problematic, there is less space for exercise, less space for hiding places where the fish can feel secure, and less places to explore and patrol. One could also argue that the shape of the container also plays an important role--vertical space doesn't have the same value as horizontal space, after all.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Yea, to go purely based off of facts would be a difficult thing to accomplish on a topic that hasn't been scientifically research over. I mean, try and search "Scientifically proven facts about betta fish", you might find yourself chewing at odds and ends. Where there is quit a bit of facts that we can draw apon, there is an equal or larger amount of opinionative thoughts in which will produce 50%+ of what we need.

I'm sure it would be more then possible to maintain a bettas fish entire life trapped in a .5g tank, but would this be plausible? In a factual world, does the contentment of the fish actually matter? In which case, would we just assume the minimal treatment for a betta fish, Ash? That could be as presice as a .5g tank (or even small) with a 100% water changes everyday and a source of heat (weather that source be efficiently thurough or not, a source regardless)

I agree that we need facts in aras which it is most needed, or even a disclaimer regarding the diffirence between facts and 'ehtical minimal practice'. Though I do see the profound need for the opinions as well. Perhaps I was mislead by your post though, the term "Agreed apon facts" looses me; in the sense that if it were a fact that there would be no need for agreeance? Like Adastra, I'm also lost on the clear point of your post, Ash.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

By the way, the breeding sticky was meant to be a general guideline for breeding.Jackie and Floridabettas. I would welcome some good info to add to it. Or, if you feel something needs to be taken off of it, let me know.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

There's some solid discussion going on in this thread, however a couple of the comments have me a bit worried.

Setting aside the fact that there is more than one way to keep a fish (and surely many ways to keep one poorly, or for not very long), I think that setting "standards" for care is a dangerous road to take. I think our responsibilities as fishkeepers include not only teaching newcomers how to care for their pets, but _why_ certain fishkeeping practices are better than others. It pains me to imagine seasoned forum members replying to "bad advice" with a link to a sticky and a comment along the lines of, "excuse me, Mr. Incorrect, but that information doesn't meet the Bettafish.com Minimum Care Standards." Even more painful is the thought of silencing posts, or worse yet, _banning_ people for earnestly giving out advice they feel is adequate yet which doesn't meet our standards (of course, _purposefully_ giving out bad advice intended to cause harm to members or their pets and property is a different matter altogether). 

Instead, shouldn't we respond to instances of "bad advice" not only with counterpoints offering good advice, but also some sort of reasoning as to why our advice is better? Which sounds better to you:



> Sorry, bettas need to be kept in heated tanks. It's in the forum standards for betta care. Here's a link: (link to stickies).





> Bettas require heated tanks. Bettas, like all fish, are cold blooded creatures that are unable to regulate their body temperatures. Instead, their body chemistry is determined by the temperature of the water they are kept in. In water that is too cold, even room temperature water, biochemical reactions such as immune response are affected negatively and can result in sickness or even death for the fish.


Having all of that information in a sticky saves time, sure, but telling people _why_ they need a heater is always more valuable to the member seeking advice and the community in general than silencing bad advice with only the Forum Standards as justification for your arguments.

As a final point, I think it's important to remember that fishkeeping has undergone a lot of changes in the years and years it's been around and there are many practices today that are seen as "the right way to do things" that would have had the experts laughing you off of the forum (or out of the room or off of the telegraph or whatever it might've been) however many years ago. Current care guidelines are a great resource, especially when backed by the opinions of (current) experts and scientific data when available, but for the above reason as well as others I think it's important to allow the free exchange of information. Whether the moderating team decides it's best to enforce minimum care guidelines or not is ultimately up to us but I would personally be upset to see members chased off the forum (or scolded, or told that they're wrong, or whatever) under the guise of Forum Minimum Husbandry Standards. 

In short, it shouldn't be about "stopping the spread of bad info" but rather about encouraging good husbandry and making stronger arguments than the proponents of said "bad info."


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree completely iamntbatman...well said......


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

Adastra said:


> I don't really understand your post, Ashkeldir, that is in response the post made by Kittles. Are you trying to argue the weight of opinion over fact? Or perhaps that these "facts" are also subject to opinion based on factors other than water quality? If the latter, then I would agree.


I was commenting on Kittles' comments.



Kittles said:


> _ this isn't a black and white issue. _
> 
> As a community, we should work towards helping people with what they have. To provide appropriate advice and information that is specific to their situation - not apply a finite 'standard' to all scenarios by which to judge. There will always be a difference of opinion, and it should be accepted, respected.
> 
> The fact is, a betta can thrive or suffer in a half gallon of water the same way it can thrive or suffer in five, ten, or twenty-five gallons. It's not so much the volume of water as it is the expected maintenance that matters. Obviously, smaller volumes require more strict upkeep, but if one is managing then who are we to criticize proper care?


My point in regards to this was that it was more important for me as a newbie coming to this site to know that the water quality (and thus the frequency of changes) was the reason behind why the fish might thrive in a 25 gallon tank or a 2 gallon tank.

In everything Kittles said, the most important word is maintenance, which ties in with the ratio of water volume to water change ratio, as well as other factors like bioload, live plants vs fake, and so on.

I wasn't arguing that those are the only factors, simply that the maintenance is one of the most important factors that newbies likely don't understand, and from what I'm hearing about the emergency thread, I'm guessing correctly.

My brother in law came over on the weekend and he was asking me questions - they've had an aquarium for two months - but he's been doing 100% water changes, cleaning the bowl completely, etc - I guess he never researched it - but if he had, would he have found the most important point right off the bat? If he isn't someone who is willing to spend a lot of time on the internet, like some of us, he may miss the most important point - water quality.

Other things like 'room to exercise' and 'horizontal space vs vertical space' are important, but not critical to a fish's survival. I'm not saying don't list those things - I'm saying that the facts should be listed as facts, and the most important should be first, and the explanation for those facts should follow - and I can see you are all already on the right track, as far as that goes, so you don't really need my input anyway.


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

iamntbatman said:


> I think that setting "standards" for care is a dangerous road to take. I think our responsibilities as fishkeepers include not only teaching newcomers how to care for their pets, but _why_ certain fishkeeping practices are better than others.


I think that the word 'standard' can not be applied in this instance, other than to list the facts that are already presented in the FAQ. I have to therefore agree with the second statement above. People tend to remember when they understand 'why'.

I think the only thing that can be done is to list available options, explain why those options work, why some people find some options to be better, and to explain why some options are disliked by some (or many). It would be better to leave it to facts rather than opinion - so, when mentioning that the fish might survive in a .5g tank, one would mention that it will not thrive, and that daily water changes will be required to have a healthy fish - but one should not mention that 'most people here on the forum' or 'responsible fishkeepers' prefer to see the minimum acceptable tank size as 2g - because it is better to argue the positives rather than the negatives. 

For example, if we mention water quality as being important to the fish's health, that ties in to tank size, because it ties in with water changes and regular maintenance - and the tank size ties in with a happier fish, because it gets to show off, exercise more, etc. I believe this is already done quite well in the FAQ, though I would make some adjustments to get the more pertinent information to stand out more

If I were to write about tank size, (besides writing about the mud puddle myth, and the small bowl size in which people usually see them at the pet store) I might say something like :

Many experienced members of this website house their Betta Splendens in 5 to 10g tanks, or even bigger tanks, for various reasons. *** here is where we talk about the how/why of water quality*** and *** here is where we talk about the how/why of regular maintenance to maintain water quality*** and that leads us to why it is advantageous to the owner to have a larger tank, because of the need for less frequent changes, and why it is better for the fish to have a larger tank, because of less stress for the fish, more room to exercise, better water quality on a regular basis, more room to hide/explore/show off, etc etc.

After all of the above was explained, I would mention the .5g tanks, the tiny bowls, etc, and comment on how daily water changes are required for tiny bowls, how the fish can't exercise, has no room to explore, etc

- but the first thing I did in all of it was mention that the 'experienced members here do x' and then educated the visitor as to why - then I can point out why the smaller tank is a bad idea.




iamntbatman said:


> In short, it shouldn't be about "stopping the spread of bad info" but rather about encouraging good husbandry and making stronger arguments than the proponents of said "bad info."


I suppose I could have just quoted the above, but then I wouldn't have been me ...


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

iamntbatman said:


> There's some solid discussion going on in this thread, however a couple of the comments have me a bit worried.
> 
> Setting aside the fact that there is more than one way to keep a fish (and surely many ways to keep one poorly, or for not very long), I think that setting "standards" for care is a dangerous road to take. I think our responsibilities as fishkeepers include not only teaching newcomers how to care for their pets, but _why_ certain fishkeeping practices are better than others. It pains me to imagine seasoned forum members replying to "bad advice" with a link to a sticky and a comment along the lines of, "excuse me, Mr. Incorrect, but that information doesn't meet the Bettafish.com Minimum Care Standards." Even more painful is the thought of silencing posts, or worse yet, _banning_ people for earnestly giving out advice they feel is adequate yet which doesn't meet our standards (of course, _purposefully_ giving out bad advice intended to cause harm to members or their pets and property is a different matter altogether).
> 
> ...


I think that this is being misunderstood and taken a little bit far, my interpretation of the goal of this project is to reorganize, edit, and in some ways expand the current stickies to include better, more thorough information. I don't think it is anyone's goal to ostracize people or ban people who don't agree with us or expect people to conform to a list of expectations--that's ridiculous--it contradicts the purpose of having a forum to begin with. 

This is all about promoting a friendly, social educational environment--thorough explanation and sound reasoning will not be thrown out the window and replaced by a staunch list of rules you must comply to in order to be a member here, rofl.

All this thread is trying to establish is what we will advocate as good, ethical betta care, and what types of situations we will promote as good living conditions. This is not about expectations of our members at all, just about what we advocate so that we can support each other instead of having to go on the defensive whenever we enter a thread with the intent of helping someone out with their problem or query.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

That 20 minute edit restriction totally gets on my nerves when I'm at work. Excuse the double post, but I wanted to tack this bit onto my previous statement. 

If you've read any of my posts, you know I'm not one to withhold reasoning that backs up my recommendations--I'll sit there and type out a whole page full of information I've probably typed out and said to another person about 10 times before--trust me, I am all about the explanation.

I just think we should all be on the same page as far as, for instance, what we will recommend to someone who posts in Diseases and Emergencies who says their fish has fin rot problems and he's lethargic, and he's been living in a one gallon bowl for months without a heater on a diet of freeze-dried blood worms. One could point out a lot of problems with this situation that could be explained in a variety of ways, the only thing I think we should want to avoid is people tripping over, for instance, whether it is the fault of the owner for not providing the necessary water changes that got the fish into this condition, or whether it's the fault of the container for being small. One could feasibly argue both ways, but when we argue amongst ourselves, no one wins, and we just end up confusing the newcomer.


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

I liked the forum better before the talk of doing all this started better.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

My issue is that there are more than one correct way to keep this species long term and thriving. By having multi answer/opinions with different methods that has worked for any one person can help a new hobbyist in their quest for keeping fish within their means.

We all have our views and methods-what works for me may not work for you but that doesn't make me wrong or the other person with a different view and method wrong...both can be correct...just different ways to reach the same goal.

I advocate for a more natural method that is low cost, low tech and others advocate for higher cost methods with all the bells and whistles.....in my opinion a person can be successful with either method- and it is up to the person seeking advice to opt for what method best suits their needs, a mix of both or middle ground......this is why in my opinion all methods need to be posted giving a person those general guidelines from all side...in the end it is up to them on how much they can afford, what and how to keep the wet-pet...... 

Being critical is not always the best way to change a behavior......that mind-set- sometimes can be counter productive and other times be a wake-up call.........that is why I feel all methods should be offered.....not just one set standard.....


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

> I liked the forum better before the talk of doing all this started better.


I agree. This is kinda freaking me out. Everyone is posting there word on things, (Which I agree is a good way to let the Admin and the Mods know how we think the website is doing,) But this has gone almost a little too far in my mind. We need to know soon what the standards should be, before this gets out of hand. Personally, I don't think we need standards. The website was fine and still is fine without standards. I think it just needs to stay as it is and has always been as far as there "Standars" go. I agree the website needs to grow, but I don't think we need "Standards". If we do the standards, I think it will be a stretch. IMHO, standards are not the right way to go. 

This is all in my opinion, and not ment to be taken as rude or bossy. Sorry if it sonds that way. :S


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

Sorry to double post, but I just want too bring back the Idea of individual Basic Guidelines for each forum.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

You know, I do think this thread has reached a point of impasse--what about instead of "setting standards" as the topic described--which really isn't the wording I would chosen since, I agree, it does sound overly exclusive and kind of forceful to come up with potentially enforceable expectations--we turn this into an article-writing project? I think we all agree that while the basic betta care article is a good start--it should be reorganized and revised, and perhaps split up and disbursed into the most relevant forums as I suggested earlier. I don't think we'll step on any toes this way, but we'll still manage to provide people with good information on how to carry out different methods correctly--besides, people tend to run into problems when they use a certain method incorrectly. 

How do people feel about this instead?


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

I like that Idea.


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## kuklachica (Dec 23, 2009)

I'd love to see some thorough articles/posts! We could do a "Best of Adastra" article!!  (I love your posts, btw!!!)


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

Great idea 

I didn't really see this as a 'standards' thread anyway, but the language was the delimiter here.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

That is what I thought this whole thread was about in the first place!! I think a bunch of the Mods/ more knowledgeable members should get together and write up some articles and revise some of the stickies.

For instance (since this is MY main area of concern) :

I would like to see an edit/revision of the current Breeding sticky (I love the info I just think we can present it better). BUT I would also like to see a second sticky that is JUST about _*why*_ people breed and the responsibly and intentions behind it, the dangers of it, etc.. sort of looking at breeding from an ethical standpoint trying to answer the "should I breed?" question. (We can just agree to disagree on the pet store bettas front because some of us are never going to budge on that position).

I think similar changes/upgrades could be made to other sections of the forum. I'd also like to see some more betta disease oriented stickies in the disease section (although I'm not qualified to input on that).


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> That is what I thought this whole thread was about in the first place!! I think a bunch of the Mods/ more knowledgeable members should get together and write up some articles and revise some of the stickies.
> 
> For instance (since this is MY main area of concern) :
> 
> ...


 
That sounds rock solid, agreed!


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## kuklachica (Dec 23, 2009)

What are some ideas for stickies that you guys would suggest and for what sections? Remember that we wouldn't want stickies to cover EVERYTHING because then there would be no FORUM, haha. But just the general outlines of the particular topics.


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## iamntbatman (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't get me wrong; I'm a big fan of well-written stickies and other articles and forum resources and I think they're a really useful tool for pointing new fishkeepers in the right direction. I'd love to see all of the betta keepers here collaborate on that sort of content. It was simply the idea of projecting that information as some sort of "forum standard" that had me (and others) concerned. Again, there's more than one way to keep a fish and some are just as valid as others. My hope is that, whatever information makes it into the stickies (and hopefully said information will be as inclusive of varying, legitimate viewpoints as possible without being so wordy no one would read it), members would still be free from hostility when providing advice that may not agree with what's available in the stickies.

As an example, there is still a lot of debate surrounding the usefulness (or perceived usefulness) of activated carbon in freshwater filters. Both sides of the debate have strong arguments and, to my knowledge, there is no clear cut winner. Now, if the general consensus is that activated carbon is useful, I wouldn't be opposed to that sort of information finding its way into a care sticky but I would certainly be upset if, after making a post explaining why I believe activated carbon is essentially worthless outside of a few specific applications, someone came along and said, "well, the stickies say you're wrong." That's the sort of fear I think myself and others have expressed, so I just want to reiterate my distaste for stickies being used in that sort of way.


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## kuklachica (Dec 23, 2009)

> "well, the stickies say you're wrong." That's the sort of fear I think myself and others have expressed, so I just want to reiterate my distaste for stickies being used in that sort of way.


I feel pretty confident that the majority of people on here wouldn't use them that way (the current stickies have never been used that way to my knowledge).


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Here's just what I personally would like to see (in addition to the stuff I mentioned in my last post):

An updated and separated FAQ sticky. I think we have a bunch more FAQ we could add and separating it from the General care would make it stick out more for those who are just looking for an answer to a specific question. These of course would have to be 1 answer questions like "how much do I feed my betta?".. _the betta's stomach is_ _about the size of the betta's eye so feed accordingly. _

An updated/ re-organized general care sticky. IMO the history/different betta species could be a separate thread or should be moved to the bottom so care is the main priority.

A sticky about common diseases in bettas (bloat, constipation, fin rot, etc) and some methods of treating them along with a list of both medications that work AND maybe some of OFL's natural remedies because I always like to see medication being only used as a last resort. In addition to this sticky or maybe even a new one to answer how to distinguish between fin rot and tail biting and possible reasons for biting and how to try to prevent it. That seems to be a BIG question on almost every betta forum.

A Walmart/petsmart/petco rant thread so people can go there to commiserate and we don't have to keep reading the same song in new threads (that's just a nit pick of mine.. others may disagree). In that OP I'd like to see some ways members can rectify bad care situations they see like writing letters/emails and notifying managers, etc.

Things to consider before adding a tank mate. I realize that we may all not agree on what constitutes an acceptable tank mate so I see this thread as more of a cautionary against getting incompatible species and making sure you not only think of the betta but also the care needs/requirements of any new species you add to the tank. Sort of a "do your research before you add a tank mate" type thing.

I'd also like to see pictures in the stickies. For instance if you are talking about how to recognize that your betta is bloated show a clear picture of a bloated betta.

Lastly.. links to other stickies. So if I'm reading about General care and want to know what cycling is then BOOM there's a link to the cycling sticky. 

Of course all this is just my personal thing. I don't want to completely throw out the need for threads but I just feel like we see a lot of the same thing over and over and over and lots of simple stuff that could quickly be answered through a FAQ or reading a sticky.

I DEFINITELY DON'T want to make this a place were we are all rainbows and sunshine and agree on everything. Lively, educated discussions are why I live on forums. Differing opinions are a great way to see things from a different angle so you can be better prepared to offer good advice should someone come to you personally.

and ps.. it would be awesome if we could make the "So what are you up to?" thread a sticky. It doesn't really matter because that thread is always on top but I've just seen a few people mention that and thought I'd throw it out there :-D

ok.. jackie shutting up now so the rest of the class can speak ;-)


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

I think we should start figuriing out what we want the standards or updated stickys should say.


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

I agree with the article and better sticky ideas.

I think pictures are so important in the stickies for illness. I know people can google images but there have been enough threads I've seen for just 'bloating' where people call it a swollen chin because they don't know where a betta's stomach is. An image of bloat would help a LOT and also ich and other common illnesses.


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## kuklachica (Dec 23, 2009)

does anyone have any pictures of illnesses they'd be willing to submit?


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

So here recently I heard why carbon filters exist, and why hey don't do anything particularly effective. It was used in the 'dark ages' of fish keeping when keepers wouldn't change there water more then once a month or worse, in the thought that the old water was better for the fish. Doing this though left a very dingy fogginess in the water. This color pigment was found to easy attatch to the chemical carbon, and so the invention for carbon filters came into play. However, since fish keepers have dramatically increased in thier knowledge of fish keeping, and there for subsequently are doing -alot- more water changes than back then, the carbon filter is a money decoy for hobbists that rarely have any effect on the waters clarity.

Hope I'm not speaking out my ear.

On another note, I greatly agree with having a picture or two for each illness!


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I can put up pictures of pop eye, fin rot, tail biting, and I think I may have some pictures of Ich and velvet (from this horrible summer I've had!). If I stalked Freddie enough I could probably even capture him in the act of biting.. but that would require 24 hour surveillance on my part LOL


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

iamntbatman said:


> Again, there's more than one way to keep a fish and some are just as valid as others. My hope is that, whatever information makes it into the stickies (and hopefully said information will be as inclusive of varying, legitimate viewpoints as possible without being so wordy no one would read it), members would still be free from hostility when providing advice that may not agree with what's available in the stickies.
> 
> As an example, there is still a lot of debate surrounding the usefulness (or perceived usefulness) of activated carbon in freshwater filters. Both sides of the debate have strong arguments and, to my knowledge, there is no clear cut winner. Now, if the general consensus is that activated carbon is useful, I wouldn't be opposed to that sort of information finding its way into a care sticky but I would certainly be upset if, after making a post explaining why I believe activated carbon is essentially worthless outside of a few specific applications, someone came along and said, "well, the stickies say you're wrong." That's the sort of fear I think myself and others have expressed, so I just want to reiterate my distaste for stickies being used in that sort of way.


This is exactly why I think any dissertation should list any and all accepted 'standards' in use by any experienced member of this website. And I guess that's what you're saying as well. 

One way that I can see working is to list the most widely accepted things first, per category (like minimum tank size, where most people at least agree that 2g should be the barest minimum, yes?) and expound on that, explaining why bigger tanks are better, etc - and in a category where there is no clear cut winner, for example, as you mentioned 'activated carbon in freshwater filters', mention at the start of the 'category' that most of the evidence appears to be subject to opinion, and that we invite the reader to read both sides of the 'argument' so they can decide for themselves.


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> I can put up pictures of pop eye, fin rot, tail biting, and I think I may have some pictures of Ich and velvet (from this horrible summer I've had!). If I stalked Freddie enough I could probably even capture him in the act of biting.. but that would require 24 hour surveillance on my part LOL


Sounds like you need a game camera on Freddie's tank! :lol:


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Hi guys,

I agree that improving our stickies is a better course than establishing any kind of "official" minimum standard of care. I agree with the sentiment that each substantive forum should have a relevant sticky or two and that they should be formatted to make them as accessible as possible.

Please take a look at this draft for the new general betta care sticky and share any thoughts you may have about how it can be improved. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-fish-care/betta-fish-care-49160/

Once this sticky is squared away we will move on to the sticky for the Betta Fish Disease and Emergencies forum, for which we've already received some great submissions. 

After that we will revisit stickies for the Betta Fish Compatibility and Breeding Betta Fish forums.

Thanks, everyone.


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## Ashkeldir (Aug 4, 2010)

Administrator said:


> Please take a look at this draft for the new general betta care sticky and share any thoughts you may have about how it can be improved. http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-fish-care/betta-fish-care-49160/


Well done!

There are a few things I would change, but mostly because I have done some proofreading in my time and would change sentence structure in a few places. But - it is fine - I'm just being picky! 

There is one thing missing though - the spot where you mention the link doesn't have a link there - or is that because you're waiting until after the new article is written?


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

> A 2.5 gallon or larger aquarium


This is arguable, but I have a 1 gallon bowl that Dragon lived in for most of his life so far, and so did Bloo, Lucky and Cosmo. They were all very happy.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

For the temperature bit, you might want to give people a more specific acceptable range, rather than "around 77 degrees"--different people may interpret the word "around" more loosely than others. I suggest altering it to "a stable temperature within the range of 77-83 degrees"--that way the person gets a feel for how hot is too hot as well as how cold is too cold. 

A lot of people also don't realize that nonadjustable heaters don't have a thermostat. I think it's important to impress upon people the value of a heater with an adjustable temperature dial, since often mini heaters don't get the water hot enough, overheat the water, and don't keep the water stable. Incandescent bulbs over the aquarium along with one of these non-adjustable heaters have caused a lot of harm to fish over the years. 25 watt adjustable heaters are only a few dollars more, but provide the fishkeeper with much more security and control over their fish's environment. 

To accommodate the beliefs of users like bloo97 you could put a small note under the 2.5G tank requirement. Here's an example:

**In some cases, containers under two gallons are acceptable, but due to the fact that smaller containers are much more challenging to keep clean, heat properly, and provide the fish with environmental enrichment, we recommend larger containers to new fishkeepers and encourage everyone to house their betta in the largest container they can manage.

I wish that were a bit shorter, but I think you get my drift.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

Wow!!! An FAQ re-write! =D This is awesome! =]

I agree that there should be a note that 1 gallons are acceptable if the proper care is given to them.

I also wanted to give a critique of my own:

*"so if you opt for a filter for your tank, be sure to get one with very low flow."
*
I think this should either be re-worded or that a note should be included to say that any filter is acceptable however as long as it is size-appropriate for the tank. If your filter is size-appropriate and the flow is still too strong then measures can be taken to baffle the filter and lower it's flow.

I'd also like to see some pictures! =]

Other than that I think it's great! =] I can't wait to see how the final write-up of this upgrade looks! =]


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

bloo97 said:


> This is arguable, but I have a 1 gallon bowl that Dragon lived in for most of his life so far, and so did Bloo, Lucky and Cosmo. They were all very happy.


That's why I began the sticky with



Administrator said:


> While people have reported success with different methods of keeping betta fish, the below represents a way that is regarded by many as a way to maximize your betta's health and well being.


I also did include a note about water changes for a 1 - 2 gallon tank in the maintenance portion of the sticky. To be sure the sticky makes it clear that bettas can be kept in smaller containers, though, I've added a blurb to the first post similar to the one Adastra recommended



Administrator said:


> * Some fish keepers have success with containers smaller than 2.5 gallons. However, such containers require more maintenance, are difficult to heat properly, and do not allow much room for decorating or enriching the betta fish's environment. See the Betta Fish Habitat portion of this sticky for details.





Adastra said:


> For the temperature bit, you might want to give people a more specific acceptable range, rather than "around 77 degrees"--different people may interpret the word "around" more loosely than others. I suggest altering it to "a stable temperature within the range of 77-83 degrees"--that way the person gets a feel for how hot is too hot as well as how cold is too cold.


Thanks, I changed the instances of "around 77 degrees" to "within the range of 77 - 83 degrees Fahrenheit".



Adastra said:


> A lot of people also don't realize that nonadjustable heaters don't have a thermostat. I think it's important to impress upon people the value of a heater with an adjustable temperature dial, since often mini heaters don't get the water hot enough, overheat the water, and don't keep the water stable. Incandescent bulbs over the aquarium along with one of these non-adjustable heaters have caused a lot of harm to fish over the years. 25 watt adjustable heaters are only a few dollars more, but provide the fishkeeper with much more security and control over their fish's environment.


I had touched upon that point and said



Administrator said:


> NOTE: You should make sure that any heater you get accounts for the temperature of the aquarium water or else it may continue to heat it well past the desired temperature. This is a basic feature, but one that we discovered not every mini heater has. If you're looking for a mini heater, also make sure that it is capable of heating your aquarium water the requisite number of degrees to bring it within the range of 77 - 83 degrees Fahrenheit.


but I've made it clearer as per your suggestion



Administrator said:


> *NOTE: You should make sure that any heater you get has a thermostat that allows you to set the desired temperature and accounts for the actual temperature of the aquarium water. Otherwise, the heater may not make the water warm enough, may make it too warm, or may allow the temperature to fluctuate, none of which is good for your betta fish. Unfortunately, many mini heaters lack this basic feature. However, the smallest adjustable heaters are only a few dollars more than mini heaters, and are well worth it for your betta's health and your peace of mind.





wallywestisthebest333 said:


> Wow!!! An FAQ re-write! =D This is awesome! =]
> 
> I agree that there should be a note that 1 gallons are acceptable if the proper care is given to them.
> 
> ...


Thanks, wallywestisthebest333. I changed the blurb about filters to



Administrator said:


> While not considered strictly necessary for betta fish, a filter can help keep aquarium water clean. Betta fish should have very little water movement in a tank, so if you opt for a filter for your tank, make sure it has a very low flow. You can ensure a low flow by either getting a filter rated for a smaller tank, "baffling" a filter to restrict its rate of flow, or both.


What does everyone think of the changes? Are there any other changes you would recommend?


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

The draft looks amazing o.o


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree, the completed thread will be much appreciated.


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Kokonoko said:


> The draft looks amazing o.o





prettylittlefishy said:


> I agree, the completed thread will be much appreciated.


Thanks, guys. If no additional suggestions have been made by tomorrow morning then I'll set it as our new betta fish care sticky and start working on the next one.


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

Sweet! Thanks Administrator for all your work.


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Sure thing, prettylittlefishy, but I haven't been the only one working on these improvements. kuklachica got the ball rolling on the moderator side of things, and of course we have all of you to thank for contributing information.


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

Well then thanks to you kuklachica.


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## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

I just want to make a comment on how much a approve of this list. 

I'm new here, very very very new, and I ended up with a Betta almost on accident as I have a bad habit of once a year or so being super impulsive. It took me about an hour after getting the fish to feel bad for it in it's .5 gal [even though he was way happier there in the cup of death] and I sought out proper advice for my baby.

I'm going to admit I was very shy and insecure at first. I was terrified of asking for 'what tank to buy' advice from people because I thought I would be scolded for getting him in such a tiny one. I almost didn't post. Everyone here was good fish-mommies and daddies and I felt awful. 

But I did and got, if only two, very helpful and nice replies. In short order I had gotten a 3 gal Marineland Eclipse with the works and my baby is happily swimming about his new territory. 

Looking all over the threads I really _really_ appreciated knowing what people thought that base *good* standard was of Betta keeping. _[Not the base that they could limp by in] _ I don't have the most space or tons of money but I was sure I could provide him a happy and long life if only led in the right direction. 

Some people have 10 Gal, some 22, and some 2.5. Some like their fish with others, and some alone. Some tanks planted some tanks not. This is all well and good and I love hearing peoples pros and cons but above that I like a list telling newbies like myself what is */needed/ * in general cases before what can be done to expand. ​


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Honestly you can't make a standard with so many ways of doing things. It really depends on why you have the betta (pet or breeding).


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

We're glad you were able to better your betta and are enjoying the community, ForbiddenSecrets.



MrVampire181 said:


> Honestly you can't make a standard with so many ways of doing things. It really depends on why you have the betta (pet or breeding).


I don't know how many of the 9 pages of this thread you read, but we are discussing improving our stickies, not imposing any kind of an official standard. 

I've gone ahead and made the draft Betta Fish Care thread our new general Betta Fish Care sticky. Thanks, everyone! I'll hopefully be able to post a draft of an improved Betta Fish Illnesses sticky soon for your consideration.


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## Ashcan Bill (May 30, 2010)

Easy to read, well thought out, solid info, and nicely worded.

One of the better stickies I've seen anywhere. Nice job!


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## Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Thank you, Ashcan Bill!


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

I think it's wonderful. It will really help a lot of people. And I like the headers.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Administrator said:


> We're glad you were able to better your betta and are enjoying the community, ForbiddenSecrets.
> 
> I don't know how many of the 9 pages of this thread you read, but we are discussing improving our stickies, not imposing any kind of an official standard.
> 
> I've gone ahead and made the draft Betta Fish Care thread our new general Betta Fish Care sticky. Thanks, everyone! I'll hopefully be able to post a draft of an improved Betta Fish Illnesses sticky soon for your consideration.


 Yes I read it and I think its great


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## marhlfld (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi, I'm a newbie here. I have extremely hard well water here (8.2). Could someone address this issue of using well water. I tested the water and all parameters were safe and normal, except for the PH. I used Blackwater to lower the PH. It brought it down to 7.6. 

I know if I mixed my well water (2 gal) with 8 gal of RO water, my tank water tested at 7.4 PH. Some say not to use the Ph Up or Down, because you could get a "crash". Any other suggestions? I'm starting to "cycle" a tank, but can't make up my mind whether to do straight well water with Blackwater additive or mix with RO water. Can you help? Thanks. (I've read all the sticky's about cycling, but Hard Well Water is not discussed.)


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## Maryrox247 (Aug 10, 2009)

*Betta Keeping Minimum Standards

** The tank: *Must be AT LEAST 1 gallon and have a heater that can keep the tank around 80 degrees 24/7 with little to no fluctuation in the tempurature. 

* Decor: *Must not be made of any materials that could poison the water. If plastic plants are used they must not be sharp enough to rip the betta's fins making him/her prone to infection and disease.

*Water*: Must be kept clean and must have regular water changes and must ALWAYS be treated with some type of water dechlorinator!

*Food: *2-3 pellets once a day is a good amount to feed your betta.

*Other: *Do not put two males together or a male and female (with the exception of breeding) and no females unless a sorority is being formed under certain conditions. ( 10 gallon tank ect.)

​


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## marhlfld (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks, I had all that covered. Tank: 10 gal. Heat: 80 degrees. Decor: All silk plants. Don't need chlorinator, am on well water. Am aware of Bettas not being put together, etc...


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

I think you should start a new topic about this in the Betta Habitats section, you'll probably get better responses. If you're mixing RO water with the well water, you should have no issues. Bettas can adapt to hard water, and bacteria may be a little slower getting started, but they will still colonize the tank easily. After all, people with African Cichlids have cycled tanks.  Just make sure the betta is acclimated very slowly with each water change, since the mixture is never going to quite match the old mixture. It still might be a good idea to use dechlorinator, it removes some heavy metals and other toxins from the water. And it's good to have around if you ever sterilize a tank with bleach or potassium permanganate.


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

Even if the Ph is slightly higher then the normal recommendations they will slowly adapt to it. My water is generally 7.6.
Sounds like adding the blackwater is working well though. I would go with that. 

To measure your tap water more accurately you should fill a small container and let an air stone run in it for 24hrs and then test the PH...(info from Oldfishlady)


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## marhlfld (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks. Good suggestions!


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