# Mixing betta breeds?



## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

Hello. I have a veiltail betta, Tony. He is sick so he is not ready to spawn. This thread is more about my sister's betta.

My sister has a Crowntail. She really wants a female, but can't find any CT FMs anywhere? She want to know if it is ok to interbreed species.

Would this be problematic? And would the fry be styrle? Just wondering. She really wants to raise betta fry.

BTW we don't have a big petstore within an hour of where we live, so ordering fish would not work.

Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks!:-D


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I would not breed petstore fish. They're genetic mutts..while pretty they're not quality. 

Also all tail types are the same exact species (betta splendens). You should never cross species like splendens X macrostoma (would never work anyway but you get my point). 

Try www.aquabid.com for your first breeding pair and try to buy a brother and sister pair.

Also RESEARCH!! Raising fry isn't easy!


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I agree.


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## leeb62 (Oct 22, 2010)

There are some betta seller from TX and they sell pretty nice looking betta on aquabid. Maybe you can email them.


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

My sister wants to raise betta for the expirence, not really for show. I guess she might try a pair after a success or 2. Has anybody ever mixed veiltail and crowntail? What does the tail look like?

About the fry. Don't you just put them in jars and change the water everyday?

I am also thinking about getting a female if Tony ever heals from his unknown illness.

Thanks!


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## MizzVamp115 (Oct 2, 2010)

I don't know about the tail type you would get, but I'm pretty sure there is more to caring for fry than just putting them in jars and changing the water. Are you really ready to potentially take care of 50 to 100 bettas? 

I'd research some more and maybe talk to some breeders if you're really serious about breeding.


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

Actually, I was thinking it would be more than that. I've done a bit of research on the topic a while back.


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## MizzVamp115 (Oct 2, 2010)

small fry said:


> Actually, I was thinking it would be more than that. I've done a bit of research on the topic a while back.


Just making sure. I've seen a few people that just wanted to try it for an experiment and not know all the work that goes into it. I thought about it when I bought my first girl until I read some of the topics in here and swiftly changed my mind lol.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

What are you going to feed the fry? What will you do if an illness breaks out? How much water will you change daily? At what age will you jar the fry? At what age will you start feeding and doing water changes? Are you prepared to kill any fry with genetic deformities to prevent that from going back into the gene pool?

And the biggest question... how are you going to find homes for up to 50 mutts? There are VT and CT rotting to death in pet store cups all over the world, why bring more into the world when there's already so many that go unwanted. Your going to have a very hard time selling the fry to anyone, if you give them away are you sure you know enough betta lovers that will take proper care of the fish they take?

VT/ CT mixes are ugly the first generation.. they look like VT with raggedy fins because of the varying degrees of web reduction shown in the fry. It is only after one or two successive generations that the fins start to look even remotely nice.

Breeding for experience is fine and dandy but if your going to breed it HAS to be for the betterment of the fish and breeding the two most unpopular tail types right now, on top of them being from unknown genetic background, is not going to better the fish. You don't have to show the fish you breed but you should have a goal in mind that will make Betta splendens better in future generations.

Look at it this way, pet store fish are like mutts you buy from the animal shelter, many dogs die each year in animal shelters, so why would someone breed two shelter dogs?

I'm not trying to be mean so please don't take it that way. Breeding is not just some thing you do like growing flowers, you have lives in your hands that you are responsible for. It must be taken seriously.


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

Very good point 1fish2fish. I was prepared for anything when it comes to fry, but mixing bettas bloodlines making more confusion is probably not a great idea.

Do fish actually have paperwork on thier backgrounds, though? I mean, I bought my betta Tony as a _veiltail_, but are you saying he could actually be a mutt? Would it be a bad idea to breed my lfs veiltail with another lfs veiltail? Or would that just damage the bloodline?

I certainly don't want to de-purify a bloodline. But I was wondering if I could breed my veiltail (that doesn't have paperwork) with a veiltail (without paperwork) from a small lfs?

Thanks for the help so far!


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

When we say mutt, we mean that the traits that you see in them will not breed true and the fish has a mixed indeterminate genetic background. The goal of the fish farm where your fish came from is to produce a large amount of fish--they give no regard to the health of the animal, its form, or creating color types that will breed true. Often fish that are mass produced are neurotic, have congenital problems, and are weak from poor care they received at the farm or in the pet store.

The best thing to do is find a breeder who can show you what the fish's parents, grand parents, and great grandparents looked like as well as a few of their siblings. This way you will know exactly what you'll get when you spawn your fish and what dominant and recessive traits your fish is carrying. Looking at your fish is like looking at a single page of an entire book of hidden recessive traits he's carrying. Seeing his relatives is a way to look through some of the other pages to form a more complete genetic story, and thus, give you a firm idea of what traits you can bring out in your fry depending on how you choose to pair your fish. You will also know the age of your fish and that your fish has received excellent care during its life--so its babies are more likely to be viable, healthy, and your fish are more likely to survive the spawning process.

You should also have a deep understanding of how betta genetics work and you should have a goal--above all, with every breeding you should be working to improve the form, health, and desirability of the species as a whole. That's part of your responsibility. Simply breeding two fish that look similar from a pet store could give you anything--usually all you get is completely unpredictable color mixes that aren't necessarily attractive and poor form. 

Breeding bettas is very costly in terms of money and time--if you're putting so much effort and time into something, it should be for a purpose. It only makes sense to invest in a good quality pair to pass on their genes to future generations. It is an investment that will pay off. Breeding for "practice" is completely unnecessary if you do enough research and planning to get it right the first time.

I recommend researching basic betta genetics and looking around on aquabid to see what colors, forms, and tail types are selling well these days to help you determine a more clear goal. 

Pet store bettas make wonderful pets, but with so many rotting on store shelves every day--is it really right to just make more of the same?


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

Ok. So Tony is not really "breeding material." I can live with that (and hopefully so can he). I will probably look into a breeding pair sometime next year, because I am upgrading tropical fish tanks and is costing me more than I have to spend (on anything). But how much would such a breeding pair cost? Sounds like $$$ and alot of it! I guess that would be fine as long as I had room for another 5g tank.

But for now breeding will have to wait, right? At least with Tony, right?

Thanks for helping!


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

The pair itself won't cost much compared to the money you'll have to spend on live food cultures, a spawning tank, grow-out tank, individual containers for males, and other necessary supplies. 

You can use craigslist to post wanted ads to find a breeder locally or you can try to find a local aquarium society--I'm sure there's quite a few in Texas. Aquarium societies are great places to find rare fish and high quality locally bred fish, including bettas. You can also become a member of the International Betta Congress--they have a program that makes you eligible to receive a free pair from a breeder to get you started, although I don't think you have the benefit of all the background info you'd get if you actually established a relationship with a breeder.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

small fry said:


> Very good point 1fish2fish. I was prepared for anything when it comes to fry, but mixing bettas bloodlines making more confusion is probably not a great idea.
> 
> Do fish actually have paperwork on thier backgrounds, though? I mean, I bought my betta Tony as a _veiltail_, but are you saying he could actually be a mutt? Would it be a bad idea to breed my lfs veiltail with another lfs veiltail? Or would that just damage the bloodline?
> 
> ...


Veiltails are a thing of the past. They're truely gorgeous fish but not to breed. Hundreds of VTs are rotting away...no more need to suffer. Also VTs are mutts. They're just bred at random simply to be sold to the US to make money off of them. 

Also many VTs are past prime breeding age since people want big showy fins. Bettas reach sexual maturity very early, before they're fully developed so any fish you buy from a store has about 3 months before they're too old to breed.

Bettas don't have paperwork but lets say you bought from Martinismommy (who bred the fish in 1fish2fish's avatar...she's a great breeder BTW) you'd know her fish were quality because she's won many IBC shows/conventions. Fish bred by show winning breeders are the best to breed. Also try buying from an IBC member. There are some on here (me, 1fish2fish, and beat2020). The IBC is the largest betta organization out there and all reputable breeders are IBC members.

And last...the main reason we reccomend buying quality fish is that it's so much easier to find good homes for a quality fish than a mutt fish that can be purchased for $3. We mainly don't want more bettas rotting away in petstores.


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> Veiltails are a thing of the past. They're truely gorgeous fish but not to breed. Hundreds of VTs are rotting away...no more need to suffer. Also VTs are mutts. They're just bred at random simply to be sold to the US to make money off of them.
> 
> Also many VTs are past prime breeding age since people want big showy fins. Bettas reach sexual maturity very early, before they're fully developed so any fish you buy from a store has about 3 months before they're too old to breed.
> 
> ...


Wow! I guess I didn't realize how huge betta breeding can be! This looks like something on a level higher than I can currently achive (this year), but that doesn't mean I won't look into it the best I can.

Where do I start with the research? Links? sites? Organization names? How do you become a member of the IBC? What kind of pair do you recommend a (broke) beginer? I have small empty overflow, but I can upgrade.

I guess I just want to take a first step on a mysterious path, a strange new world of fish keeping. What better place to start than on bettafish.com? Thanks for helping!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

We're pretty lucky to have a couple of IBC breeders here.


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## AngleFish (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi, the fry will need an airated tank, while they are babies they do not posess the organ to breath air from the surface of the water, once they have matured you can remove the airstones or what ever your using for filtration. Depending on your Betta male he may decide to eat all the fry so you will need to make sure that you are checking for agression and chasing. You will need to remove the female straight after birth as she normally eats the fry. 

You also need to make sure that your Betta's like each other, there are ways to trick them into wanting to be with each other but the best way i find is to place the female into a glass silinder of some kind one that the water can flow into. If this is not possible make sure you dont leave her in there for too long as she may get stressed. You will need a tank that is at least 10 litres or around that. Otherwisw when they get a little older they will not have enough territory and will fin nip and their tails will not form as nicly as they would if not bitten.

you do not want too much flow. feed your fry with frozen baby brine, this will be small enough for the fry to eat. Make sure you defrost first.Most of the time the fish will both tare eachothers fins apart during the breeding period this is ok and is to be expected, if you are wanting to keep your Bettas fins intack do not i repeat do not attempt to breed.

i hope this has been a help for you... oh and just remember that you will need to organise homes for the little ones as soon as they are born because once they reach about 6 weeks old they start to attack eachother and you will need to seperate. feed the fry twice daily as well. crushed flakes will do as well as the frozen brine. Oh and one more thing, try and breed dark deep colours this way you will get a wider range of colour.


AngleFish :O)


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Actually, although fry cannot breathe air at first, they do not need aerated tanks. I and many other breeders have never used aeration in spawning tanks and never had any issues.

As long as you do water changes the oxygen in the water will not deplete enough to kill the fry. 


Here's some helpful links to get you started. Read EVERYTHING you can on breeding.

www.bettysplendens.com
www.bettaterritory.nl
http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics.htm

The ibc website is www.ibcbettas.org. It costs $20 to join if you are over 18, if your under 18 I believe it costs $15. Once you join you are able to access the BetterBettas discussion group and Flare! magazine as well as many articles written by IBC members. You can definitely learn a great deal from joining and it's something I HIGHLY recommend. 


Any pair can be your first pair, just make sure its
1. Something you WANT to breed
2. Something that is currently popular so you will be able to find homes
3. A good quality pair... read standards and learn how to apply them to the real fish.

The only two tail types I do not recommend breeding (especially for newbies) are VT, because of all the reasons already mentioned, and CT, because it is extremely hard to produce quality CT, that is better left to someone who is willing to do a lot to their water to make it perfect.


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

So is the IBC site "beginner friendly", or do I need to complete certain task before I sign up? Looks like a pretty big site. Is thier anything I need to know before I join? Any tips on navigateing through the site? Sounds like something I should look into!

You said you don't recommend VT or CT, but what about HM? I love half moon bettas, they look more intesting than VT or CT. I wanted to get some anyway eventually. Is their anyway I can get some through IBC, or is their a site that the IBC members sell there bettas to "outsiders"?

Thanks for all the tips! Bettafish.com has been extremely helpful! Thanks!

_(BTW the first annual betta day is on November 14th (2010) created by the members of bettafish.com)_


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It all depends on what you want-if you want to show Bettas then I strongly recommend you join the IBC, get a mentor and a quality breeding pair-----if you just want to enjoy Bettas as a hobby and experience the spawning aspect-then do some research-get the supplies-find the Bettas that you like and spawn them and most important no matter what direction you take....have fun...thats what its all about......


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## small fry (Oct 14, 2010)

I will look into joining! Thanks for your support bettafish.com!


_(BTW the first annual betta day is on November 14th (2010) created by the members of bettafish.com)_


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