# Black Dragon x Black Copper HMPK



## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

I'm excited to be sharing about my first spawn in a few years. I've been taking pretty meticulous handwritten notes but will give you just the highlights in this thread.


















These are the parents. I have no idea what their genotype looks like but it seems obvious to me that the female is a black copper plakat (possibly HMPK) and the male is a black "dragon" HMPK. He's a speedy guy so it's all but impossible to capture a good photo of him flaring, but his caudal fin has a strong "D" shape with sharp edges when fully open. He's a pretty impressive looking fish overall.

The female is less impressive, but still good-looking. She has the slightest bump in her topline and is on the small side. But I love her color and temperament.

Both fish are energetic and aggressive. The female was mislabeled as a male despite an obvious egg spot, rounded belly, and vertical bars showing from day one.

I conditioned these fish for a bit over two weeks in heated, tannin-darkened, planted tanks. They were given a mixture of frozen foods and Ken's golden pearls.

On 12/12/21 I set up the shoebox-size plastic bin as a spawning container. Put in a heater, a healthy handful of guppy grass, a little dwarf water lettuce, and half of an Indian almond leaf. I filled it with conditioned tap water as well as some water taken from a cycled, fishless tank.

In the afternoon on 12/13/21 I acclimated the male in the spawning container and set him free. I let him hang out there on his own until about 9pm, when I placed the female in an old Petco cup and let her float. He flared and danced almost as soon as he saw her and got to work on his bubble nest.










I was a bit surprised to see him building his nest up tall. In my limited experience this type of nest tends to hold eggs and dangling fry a bit better so that was fine by me - the only issue is that females sometimes tend not to find this impressive.

I left the female in her cup, covered the container with a towel, and went to sleep.

The next day (12/14/21) his nest was starting to look good. The female was no longer charging at the sides of her cup but she still seemed interested in the male (displaying vertical bars and trying to follow him). So I released her into the spawning tank.

The male immediately began to dance, chase, and nip. I was a bit concerned, but she was able to find hiding places in the grass and by the heater when she needed to. I monitored them throughout the day for signs of stress and/or spawning. I took somee video but I'm not sure how to attach it here - I'll figure that out later.

As the day went on without any wrapping I started to get a bit worried as the male was aggressively pursuing the female, stopping here and there to dance and flare and try to lead her to the nest. When she didn't follow, he started biting and chasing, and she took cover. For much of the day she lay in the corner by the heater. She appeared somewhat stressed - breathing heavily and lying still - but her fins were still open and she was still displaying vertical stripes. The damage to her caudal and anal fins was about what I expected, but I was concerned about a few missing scales and an almost completely destroyed dorsal fin. I decided to put the towel back over (hoping to make it easier for her to get away) and leave them alone for the night.

In the morning (today, 12/15/21, around 7:30am) the bubble nest was huge. As soon as I lifted the towel, the male began looking for the female and trying to entice her to the nest. She was still too scared. Some chasing and nipping went on throughout the morning, but no wrapping. He continued to work on his nest between chasing and dancing.

I contemplated removing her as I was concerned about the male's aggression and her unresponsiveness to his advances. She was still not displaying horizontal stress lines, clamped fins, or other behaviors besides hiding in the corner though, so I took a chance, accepted the worst case scenario, and hoped that nature would take care of things.

I went out of the house around 11:30am to handle some work and returned around 12:45pm to find that they were already wrapping. I should note that the weather may have been a factor: it started raining around 12pm. The morning wake-up + rain seemed to have done the trick.

I was concerned that the female was eating eggs. Fortunately, though, she was being helpful and placing them in the nest. The male was a bit clumsy as he tried to wrap, but they both quickly got the hang of it, which seemed to temper the male's frustration. Any sign of stress with the female was gone.

They were at it for a long time. I returned to work and let them have some privacy, checking in every now and then. I can't remember exactly (may have written it down) but I don't think I removed the female until at least 4pm. At that point, she was resting on the heater out of view of the male while he tended the nest.










I took this snapshot very quickly as I didn't want bubbles to start popping when I lifted the lid, and tried to count the eggs in the picture. I believe there are probably at least 80-100. We'll see how many are actually fertilized, as these are first-timers who took their dear sweet time getting down to business.

Now... here's the ugly part, and I hope this will give aspiring breeders some pause:










This is what my female looked like right after she was removed from the spawning container. She is swimming well, she is eating, and she's as energetic as ever as she enjoys some clean, dark water. But there is no doubt in my mind that this process was stressful and painful for her. Her fins will probably never be the same again. This is a bit more damage than I would typically have allowed before separating the pair, but I pushed our limits a bit and it seems to have paid off. She's not exactly "unscathed," but she seems calm and comfortable now that she's done her part.

I'll post an update in the morning. The male gets distracted and irritated with me if I peek into the nest, but he'll have to deal with periodic check-ins. He seems like he's doing everything I'd want him to do - rearranging eggs, adding bubbles to the nest, etc. - so it's probably best to leave him be for the night.


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

Great description of the process from the beginning to end. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to following this log.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Small update: Checked in on the male and his eggs this morning and he's moved his nest.










I don't know what compels certain males to do this but I'm sure he knows best.

I'm excited to see little tails soon and will be trying my best not to disturb him while I'm working at home today.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Update 11:50am - he's moved the nest again. It's much smaller now and the eggs are clustered very closely together.









I hope this isn't cause for concern. I've seen males move the nest before, but never twice.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

5:45pm - No hatching yet, but I caught the male in the act moving eggs from one nest to a new nest. What a weirdo.

ETA: I meant to post this in spawn logs. If a mod could move the thread that would be grand.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Went to check on the fish at 9:00 this morning and there are little tails hanging from the nest! It's a bit hard to capture on my cell phone camera so I'll try to fire up my better camera a little later and see if I can show you guys. Can't wait to take the male out and give him a rest. He is still going strong, taking good care of the babies.

Once the fry are free-swimming I'll use a turkey baster to get some of the gunk off the bottom. After that I'll start the babies on vinegar eels and microworms. I alternate these two first foods because vinegar eels don't seem to have nutritional value as good as microworms, but feeding microworms alone in the first few days has led to loss of ventral fins in my spawns before.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Finally got a decent photo of the fry hanging from the nest:










There are a lot of them. The male is doing an okay job getting them back into the nest. He has continued to add bubbles to the nest too.

A small snail hitchhiked on the guppy grass and I saw the male attack and try to kill it. Hoping for water quality reasons that the little guy is still alive.


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## Feanor (Nov 13, 2020)

All the best for your fry and the female!

Thank you for sharing your experience and pictures.

Videos need to be uploaded on any platform before posting the link here. Should you have any questions please let us know.


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

Oh boy! Babies are always so exciting! Congratulations 🎉🎊🍾🎈 
I noticed that the more I peeked at my males the more likely they were to move the eggs around to another nest. The ones that I left covered never bothered to move nests around. I’m not a professional breeder or anything, just my observations about my pairs over the last 2 years or so. I bet this spawn is going to be a beautiful group!!!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Feanor said:


> All the best for your fry and the female!
> 
> Thank you for sharing your experience and pictures.
> 
> Videos need to be uploaded on any platform before posting the link here. Should you have any questions please let us know.


Thank you.  Good to know re: videos. Maybe it's time for me to figure out Youtube.



X skully X said:


> Oh boy! Babies are always so exciting! Congratulations 🎉🎊🍾🎈
> I noticed that the more I peeked at my males the more likely they were to move the eggs around to another nest. The ones that I left covered never bothered to move nests around. I’m not a professional breeder or anything, just my observations about my pairs over the last 2 years or so. I bet this spawn is going to be a beautiful group!!!


I think you're onto something with this theory, it must be their way of trying to hide their babies from any potential danger. This is probably the least I've ever micromanaged a spawn, but this fish is particularly aggressive and already very tired of seeing my ugly mug. 🙃


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Ladies and gentlemen, we have lift off. 😎The fry became free swimming at some point between 7pm last night and 11:30am this morning.









There are too many to count. No signs of dead fry either. I removed the male who is now happily swimming in his own tank. He had a good snack and seems very comfortable. I'm proud of him - he was a great first-time dad.

Note to newbies: He was able to go several days without food thanks to good health and conditioning. The spawning process took longer than I expected this time around so conditioning was crucial in ensuring he had the energy to get his babies to this stage. Breeding bettas is not hard, but you *cannot cut corners at any stage. *This holds true from selecting fish to conditioning all the way through raising the fry.

Anyway, I siphoned some goop off the bottom of the container, but found I was sucking up fry here and there so gave up. The little snail survived the male betta's attack so I'm hoping he'll help keep things clean. I added some clean, conditioned water too, hoping to prevent ammonia spikes.

They'll go into a big tub (growout) once they're a bit hardier.

I fed them microworms as I was having some difficulties harvesting vinegar eels. Will try VEs again tonight. I also found that one of my two MW cultures has crashed, so I'll need to create a second culture from the one that is still thriving. Probably won't need it after they get started on BBS, but I would hate to need it and not have it.


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## Saavedra (Dec 8, 2021)

This is super exciting. I read the whole thread like I was watching an action movie. Congratulations!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Checked in on the fry at about 8am. Still no dead babies! Fed vinegar eels and microworms today and will probably start hatching BBS (two hatcheries) for them tonight.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Started the BBS hatchery (singular - only got around to the box hatchery). The pop bottle hatchery will have to wait as I have to get some work done so I can afford to feed and house these little freaks.

Here's a photo right after a VE & MW feeding:


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

Awwwwww i can't believe how cute they are!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Babies are doing well today. Nothing remarkable going on, which is a good thing at this early stage.

Unfortunately, though, my BBS hatchery failed to give me food, so it was another day of VEs and MWs. Can't say I recommend the SF Bay "Shrimpery." I'm going back to using pop bottles and airline tubing from here on out.

No real changes in the fish today but here's a couple photos anyway:



















Also, the snail is still alive, cleaning up after the babies like a little champion. Please stand and salute our troops:


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Well... today has been one minor disaster after another.

Both of my BBS hatcheries have been slow to hatch and yielding very few shrimp. I was able to feed a few BBS but had to supplement with nematodes.

Also, my pop bottle hatchery stand is leaking big time, and the air pump is *loud*. I bought a cheapo one for this project as the others are at max capacity right now, and I have regrets. I wonder if my airline tubing is too rigid (causing cracks and gaps) - might switch to silicone tubing for the next hatch, which I thankfully have on hand. I wonder if the ambient temperature is too low. Might move the hatcheries downstairs where it gets warmer.

Anyway, as I was going to feed my fry, I lifted the lid and _dropped it in the container_. At least one of the fry splashed out but survived in a little puddle of water on the lid. I just dumped him back in and he seemed fine. I didn't see any others, but they're so small and it's such a huge spawn that it's almost impossible to tell.

I'm hoping I'll see more hatching on the BBS tomorrow so I can start seeing some growth. If not, I'll switch to another brand of eggs (which I have on hand). I guess I'm going to the store to get a 2L of pop to dump out for the bottle (I don't drink pop, lol) and set up a low-tech hatchery. Weirdly, the simplest solution seems to work best. Hoping to have BBS to feed tomorrow so I can start seeing some growth.

Also, there's been a bit of a nitrite spike. I added water to the container but didn't siphon goop because the fry are still too small. Once they're on BBS they'll grow quickly and will go into a bigger container with a sponge filter, so hopefully this is very, very temporary.

The important part with these little setbacks, in my experience, is not to get discouraged. On the bright side, there's no visible die-off. These seem to be a pretty hardy bunch capable of withstanding my screw-ups.


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## Feanor (Nov 13, 2020)

Luckily everyone is doing fine!

Temperature really influences hatching. 77 F gives me 24-30hrs hatching time.

I use this hatchery: JBL Artemio Set + Artemio 1 and am fairly content with it. 
Just not using the outlet but siphon the BBS out with airline tubing.

The Ziss hatchery includes a heater which is nice. But I have no experience with this product.

Crossing my fingers for your success!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Feanor said:


> Luckily everyone is doing fine!
> 
> Temperature really influences hatching. 77 F gives me 24-30hrs hatching time.
> 
> ...


I've been considering the Ziss hatchery, if I try it out I'll be sure to document it here. 😁

The JBL Artemio set looks like it's _way_ less mess than the pop bottle method.

Thanks for the recs!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

I finally got a good amount of BBS hatching in the pop bottle hatchery this morning, so I was able to feed the babies something more nutritious. I think it just took a bit of extra time due to the temperature.

I threw in some MWs too for good measure but will probably stop feeding those in the next couple of days so we don't end up with missing ventrals.

Here's the little guys:










Let the embiggening commence!


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

I have a ziss hatchery it comes with a glass thermometer and a hole in the top for space for a heater but mine didn’t include a heater. I like it waaay better than my recycled juice bottle that had a steady drip lol. Good hardware for sure. My only complaint is it is short and the release valve is on the bottom so I really have to squeeze my hand under there to turn the knob. It holds 2 liters of water too so big batches of shrimp if you need that much or just a little if you only need a little. I don’t use a heater in mine my house is about 75 degrees sometimes it takes a wee bit longer than 24 hours to hatch batches for me because of ambient temp


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

BBS hatchery is bustling now. Lots of little red tummies. Fed some VEs for the little guys but I think we'll stop microworms except as a back-up food for now. I'd say things are going...










Water parameters are going to be FUBAR if I don't move this party to a bigger growout soon though. Probably going to get that set up Christmas night and move them as soon as they're looking a little bigger. It's going to be a big storage tote that I'll place a heater and filter in and gradually fill up with water.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

My pop bottle hatchery stand is very effective but very leaky. Came home from Christmas festivities to find a bit of a mess. But I had more than enough BBS to feed the babies and there was no damage to my floor (I put the stand in a little tub) so it's all good.

Here they are - if you zoom a bit you can see their little faces:










I thought I saw one (maybe two?) dead fry. Not sure if water quality is to blame or if they were just too small to eat BBS. Possibly natural selection, but regardless, these guys need to go into a bigger container ASAP.

Snails are proliferating too. They're helpful as they'll eat uneaten food but if you've ever had bladder snails, you know what I'm dealing with...

Merry Christmas to those of you who celebrate. Here's my tiny little tree (featuring presents for my little human baby):


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Woke up today to find some dead fry (about five) and some uneaten food. Siphoned the bottom and managed not to suck up any live ones. This is getting easier as they grow.

However, there's a noticeable size difference in the spawn, with basically two classes of fry: big chonkers (who are clearly eating BBS, based on the red bellies) and little bitty babies (some of whom don't seem to be taking to BBS). All of the dead ones were very small for their age so I suspect malnutrition. I'm adding a few MWs back into the meal plan for the tiny ones but only a _tiny_ amount, and only for the next 36 hours. If they still fail to thrive after that, I'll have to just let natural selection take its course, as microworms aren't the best thing for the biggies.

The biggies prefer hanging out at the back of the container so are very hard to photograph without zooming in a lot:


















Update on the spawning pair: the female's fins are growing back very quickly and she seems happier than ever. She's overdue for a water change though so that's on the agenda for today.

I gave the male some flaring time and he decided to be absolutely beautiful:










He could probably use a small water change too (and a glass cleaning, jeez), but I assure you that brown-ness is all tannins, it's not poopy yuck water. 🥰

Not sure if I've ever posted a photo of his heavily-planted, oak-leaf-littered terror cube, but here it is. He loves his plants and little hiding places:










Anyway, I'm planning to move the fry tonight before their evening feeding. We'll see how that goes. I would have liked to wait until they were bigger, but with so many fry (and snails) a shoebox is just no longer viable.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Not much to update about today. The fry are being good eaters. I'm experimenting with hatching smaller quantities of BBS to avoid waste so I'll let you guys know how that goes.

Snapped this good photo with my cell:


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

I did it guys, I moved the fry into the growout without shocking/killing them. 😭 

I was scared to death because the last time I tried to relocate fry this young I lost most of them, probably due to rushing the acclimation process. The only reason I moved them this time was because of water quality. Nitrites have been up (which tells me ammonia was probably up too - I didn't test for it, so sue me, whatever lol), plus with 60+ fry it was going to get pretty crowded in that shoebox.

Also I've been noticing significant size differences and was worried that some babies are having stunted growth or being out-competed for food. This bigger container will let me distribute food more broadly which I hope will give the little guys a chance to catch up.

It took me about three and a half hours. A lot of that time was just letting the shoebox float in the big box.


















I dripped water in very slowly with a turkey baster until the shoebox started to sink and then pressed it down and kind of just let them swim out. Removed the shoebox and voila, new growout.










And I accomplished all of this while my boyfriend was yelling at me too, since me having one hobby is an atrocity on par with literal murder.

Anyway, everyone in the house who isn't an enormous man child is doing well. Also, my small BBS hatchery worked out:










Hoping to cut back on wasted BBS by using only half the amount of eggs and salt I'd normally use. This is one of those seltzer water bottles cut in half with old, plastic airline tubing stuck in it. That's literally all.

Hopefully this change of scenery will jumpstart fry growth!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Haven't seen a single dead fry since moving them to the growout tub, and they all seem to be getting bigger. Some of them are already starting to look like real fish. Check this guy out:










Tiny Hatchery is working out great. I'm still hatching more BBS than I realistically need but I'm getting much better hatch rates and waste is closer to zero. I think I'm going to freeze leftover BBS into little shrimpsicles for when they fry are bigger.

Size differences are still significant. You can kind of see in this photo:


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Taking photos of these guys is getting so difficult. They're super fast and my phone camera doesn't want to focus. Here's the best I could do this morning:










I tried to get photos with my big camera too but I'm bad at photography so that didn't really pan out. Will probably try to mess with manual focus if/when I have some down time.

Most of them are growing really well now but there are still a couple of small ones. In the past I've observed that once jarring starts the little ones tend to catch up, and in some cases are the most beautiful fish of the bunch so I'm not planning to do any culling on that basis alone.

Speaking of culling, there are no early signs of deformities other than about 5 dead fry a few days ago. I am hoping that any culling I do in this spawn can be non-lethal - ie. giving away ugly-but-healthy fish as pets to my friends' kids. Arguably that's semi-lethal but hey, if it saves them from being clove oiled at least it's a fighting chance.

Another interesting thing I'm noticing is the early color differences. Obviously at just a couple weeks old they are a long way off from showing color but already there is a mix of very dark and very light fry. I'm wondering if this will still be the case in a few weeks.

Anyway, I siphoned some goop and added a small amount of water today. Most fry are big enough and fast enough to stay clear of the turkey baster now so cleaning is easier. I'll be adding a small sponge filter soon (with an air valve to keep water movement low and slow).


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

No big update except that I took this cool pic this morning (little dark but whatevs):










Check out the color difference with the guy on the left vs. the ones in the center and on the right.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

This morning I think I spotted a belly slider. 😱 I've never dealt with this issue before so I hope it's just an isolated incident and not indicative of a larger problem. I'm going to monitor for a few days but if the problem doesn't improve I'll have to cull. Going to be more careful about the amount I'm feeding as I forge ahead.


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## FishandBirdLover (May 5, 2021)

mollyyymo said:


> This morning I think I spotted a belly slider. 😱 I've never dealt with this issue before so I hope it's just an isolated incident and not indicative of a larger problem. I'm going to monitor for a few days but if the problem doesn't improve I'll have to cull. Going to be more careful about the amount I'm feeding as I forge ahead.


What is a belly slider? Sorry. Just had to ask.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

FishandBirdLover said:


> What is a belly slider? Sorry. Just had to ask.


Sometimes when the swim bladder fails to develop properly, fry will swim abnormally. Usually that means either swimming tail-down, or sliding around the bottom on their bellies. It can be caused by overfeeding BBS.

This seems to have worked itself out though. No belly sliding fry as of last night at 11pm. Must have just been a temporarily overfull tummy.


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## FishandBirdLover (May 5, 2021)

mollyyymo said:


> Sometimes when the swim bladder fails to develop properly, fry will swim abnormally. Usually that means either swimming tail-down, or sliding around the bottom on their bellies. It can be caused by overfeeding BBS.
> 
> This seems to have worked itself out though. No belly sliding fry as of last night at 11pm. Must have just been a temporarily overfull tummy.


Ok, thanks for explaining. Glad that they are doing better!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Now that I'm getting better at photography I'm obsessed with taking pictures of them. They're starting to get all their fins. 🙂


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## FishandBirdLover (May 5, 2021)

mollyyymo said:


> Now that I'm getting better at photography I'm obsessed with taking pictures of them. They're starting to get all their fins. 🙂
> 
> View attachment 1037169


Awwww! Their so cute!!!! 🥰🥰


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Three weeks old today! Posted these photos on the 'gram today:


































I may be going crazy but I think I'm seeing a little iridescence in the second photo (left fish).

Past two days have been kind of rough due to work being busy/lake effect snow/human parenting taking precedence, so the fry only got one BBS feeding for two days instead of the usual 2-3 feedings. That's probably not a bad thing since a couple of the big fry were gorging themselves to the point of impaired swimming. All of that has resolved as of today's feeding.

I also crushed up some Ken's golden pearls and mixed in with the BBS. Only a few of the fry were into it. I'm planning to experiment with grated frozen foods (blood worms) for the biggies too. The snail population will help to eat up anything the fry don't consume. It's nice not to have to worry as much about that issue, I think I may intentionally introduce snails into future spawning setups (these ones were accidental).

Also... what are people's opinions on grindal worms? I've never used them before. I think I prefer to just push finely ground/grated frozen or dry foods at the 4-6 week mark but I've heard grindals are excellent for speeding growth. Would love to hear thoughts before I go ahead and buy a culture, as additional expenses mean I'll need to charge more for the adults if I want to break even, and I want to keep prices competitive for the LFS.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Well this is a first. I started feeding a mix of grated bloodworms + BBS today and the bigger fry are into it. However, I caught one of the biggies _eating a sibling._

Blurry photo, but omg:


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Another pic!


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## FishandBirdLover (May 5, 2021)

mollyyymo said:


> Another pic!
> 
> View attachment 1037308


That's a great shot! Makes me want to touch up my photography skills lol.


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

FishandBirdLover said:


> That's a great shot! Makes me want to touch up my photography skills lol.


Thats EXACTLY what I wanted to say! AMAZING pic!! And while they are growing up, they are becoming moooooooore cute!!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

FishandBirdLover said:


> That's a great shot! Makes me want to touch up my photography skills lol.





betta4ever! said:


> Thats EXACTLY what I wanted to say! AMAZING pic!! And while they are growing up, they are becoming moooooooore cute!!


Thank you! 🥰 My family gifted me a very nice camera a few years ago for fish and nature photography but I was scared to touch it until recently because I was afraid I'd break it or something. I only just started really using it after my son was born so I could get some frame-worthy photos of him. He won't sit still for a photo anymore though so the camera is now for fish. 😅


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Well, I think tough decision time is approaching for the smaller fry. The majority have developed well and grown a lot but there are some runts who seem to be really struggling. One is lethargic and lies around on the bottom as if he's dead. The only reason I know he's not dead is because I tried to siphon him out, and he started trying to escape the turkey baster. I lost track of him after that but he's probably gonna have to go.

Another one has become a constant belly slider despite seeming to barely be eating anything at all. I wonder if she just has some innate swim bladder deformity that's keeping her from keeping up with her siblings.

There are a couple more that I'm not so sure about. They're just really tiny for their age but otherwise seem healthy. I probably won't cull them as long as they're swimming and eating well. I figure if they stay this small, the biggies will eventually eat them, but if they end up growing, that's great.

I could separate the biggies and the tinies into 2 separate growouts, but I would really prefer not to. I probably should step up water changes however. I did introduce a sponge filter a couple days ago as well. Water parameters are pristine.

Also, on the food front, after a bit of research in the IBC technical assistance library, I've decided to reintroduce small amounts of microworms, mixed in with BBS and grated frozen foods. I can see ventral fins on all of the normal-size fry, so it doesn't look like early use of microworms harmed them. Plus, relying too much on BBS seems to be causing temporary swim bladder concerns that I worry will become permanent. So we'll be a little lighter on BBS in the next week or so and see how that goes.

Growth and development concerns notwithstanding, I've noticed something cool: the fry are already showing little hints of iridescence when they move in bright light. I'm seeing little flashes of blue and white here and there. I'm really curious to know if this will be any indication of their adult colors, so wanted to make a note of it.

I'm also wondering if the combo of light/dark bodied fry in the spawn means anything. I wonder if the white/see-through babies will develop dark colors like their parents.

I should note that after being beat up during spawning, the female's colors have changed a bit. She is now showing thick scaling on her body, her base color has become richer and deeper, and her iridescent scales have brightened. She probably has both dragon and marble ancestors if I had to venture a guess. If that's the case then this spawn could come out really interesting looking.

I want to upload photos but the forum is giving me some guff right now. I'll try again later on.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Alright, here's some photos of my female, almost completely healed. Please excuse her giant poopy, she's been a bit constipated. I kind of can't believe that she's already eggy and showing breeding stripes again. I'm not planning to spawn her again at least until I see how her babies look, but maybe we'll back-cross if we don't get nice females from the current spawn. Her topline leaves a bit to be desired (she's a bit spoon-headed) but idk, I think she's pretty.


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

OMG she really is pretty! So happy she is almost healed!!


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

mollyyymo said:


> I'm also wondering if the combo of light/dark bodied fry in the spawn means anything. I wonder if the white/see-through babies will develop dark colors like their parents.


Exactly the same was going on with my guppy fry! In my case, the parents where light- bodied, but almost half of the babies had dark color! Of course, bettas are completely different, so this doesn't really mean anything!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

betta4ever! said:


> Exactly the same was going on with my guppy fry! In my case, the parents where light- bodied, but almost half of the babies had dark color! Of course, bettas are completely different, so this doesn't really mean anything!


Fish genetics are crazy, especially bettas. 🤪


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

More baby pics!































Was feeling a bit worried about their growth rate today but I think they're on the smaller side of on target. Adding some MWs back into the mix occasionally seems to be helping. The big ones just keep getting bigger but some of the small ones are still very slow-growing. I'm still contemplating removing the smallest ones and seeing if they do better separated from the big fish.

I'm getting some grindal worms in the mail tomorrow. Once that culture gets established that will give them some more variety in terms of food, which should help with growth.

They all seem to have really big appetites, more so every day.

I've been seeing iridescence on fins and it's so exciting!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

No major updates today. Just the usual goop siphoning and adding water. In the past day I've seen a some growth (but it could just be my eyes deceiving me). Only a couple of the fry are noticeably behind in development, everyone else is doing great.

Wish I had photos to share but was in a big rush today (an artificial one, there really _was _no reason for me to be rushed, but to reiterate, my boyfriend is a spoiled child) so I didn't get to take any photos.

I did, however, get to make a trip to my "local" (read: 50 minutes away) fish store. I was initially there for plants for a new project tank (danios!) and was pleasantly surprised to learn that they carry frozen daphnia. I brought some of that home and immediately tried it out since my hatcheries are lagging a bit behind my fishes' appetites at the moment (temperature outside is in the single digits so that's probably why). The bigger (hungrier) fry only took a few seconds to figure out that it was food, and the smaller fry followed their lead.

Also, I got some grindal worms in the mail today, so I'm hoping that keeping food for them will become a bit less high-maintenance in the next couple weeks.

Editing to add - just thought I'd recommend the places I go to for supplies:

Rock Beach Aquatics (Irondequoit, NY - I think they're planning an online store?) - The store is breathtaking, they work so hard to maintain a high standard.

Small World Aquatics (online) - They sell grindal worm starter kits and lots of other live food cultures, plus plants, and I think shrimp and shrimp supplies. The owners are also lovely people based on my online interactions with them.

Also, side note, I have tons of microworms right now. Two mature cultures that really, really need to be divided. If you're *new *to breeding bettas, I'd be more than willing to send them to you free of charge (I'll take care of shipping too - continental US) - just ask. The only condition is that you have to tell me about your breeding plans 😁

Same goes for vinegar eels but I haven’t checked on those cultures in weeks (they don't need much attention).


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

OK, yesterday was one of those days when everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Not just in terms of the fry either.

We're staying at my boyfriend's house this week - few minutes down the road, but it's one of those rural roads that never gets plowed or salted in a timely fashion. When I'm over here I go home to feed/water change/check on my fish twice a day.

Past couple of days have been freezing. Saturday it got down to 1°F with -15° wind chill. When I went back yesterday to check on everything, my pipes were nearly frozen with only a little bit of water coming out of the faucets. I got them running again without much issue but I can't believe that happened over the course of like 16 hours...

Then I go upstairs to feed the babies. My BBS did not hatch within the usual 36 hour window due to cold temps, but that's no biggie since they're taking frozen daphnia now too. However, when I looked at the fry tank I noticed they looked a bit lethargic. I took the lid off and checked everything and then realized that the water was getting colder by the second as soon as the lid was off. Checked the thermometer and the temperature had dropped to 72°F. 😨

Yes, my fancy heater had shut off. I don't know why or how. I unplugged it for a couple minutes and plugged it back in and the light kicked back on, so I _think _it's heating again, but I couldn't wait and see because a massive snow storm was on the way, and I would have been stuck.

Boyfriend suggested I leave the space heater on in the fish room, but after hearing about so many fires started from space heaters recently I decided it wasn't worth it. I've lost spawns before but I can't cope with a potential house fire. So I'm just praying.

I tried to go back over later in the evening because I was extremely worried, but visibility was so bad I couldn't see past my own nose, and snow was very quickly packing down on the road. I turned around when I could safely do so (every driveway was snowed in already, the only thing that was clear and visible was a farm's access road) and prayed that my little fish would be OK.

On top of all that, I'm feeling a bit under the weather, my child decided that we were going to wake up at 3:30am today, and my dad is going in for surgery in a few minutes. I'm worried sick because he's older, the hospital is packed with COVID cases, and my mom doesn't have snow tires on but refuses to let me come out there with the truck to handle it. I'm in my 30s - it's time for them to let me look after them, but they refuse to accept help. 😐

Also, despite the holiday weekend, I managed to end up with work to do today. Ugh.

So basically I am a huge ball of stress and if I don't go prematurely gray after the way this weekend has been I will be shocked to my core.

Fingers crossed that I don't lose any (or many) babies due to temperature swings. If anyone has troubleshooting advice for Eheim Jager adjustable heaters I'd love to hear it. I'm assuming it got too hot at some point and automatically shut off. I guess once the sun is out and I can borrow the truck I'll head over and assess the damage.

Sorry for the only-semi-fish-related vent. Will keep you all posted as usual.


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## FishandBirdLover (May 5, 2021)

Oh no! So sorry that this is happening. Hoping that your dad will get better, and that your fry tub will stay heated. Fingers crossed for you. 🤞


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

FishandBirdLover said:


> Oh no! So sorry that this is happening. Hoping that your dad will get better, and that your fry tub will stay heated. Fingers crossed for you. 🤞


Thank you. ❤ Surgery went well according to Mom, and Dad is now recovering at the hospital. I'll feel better once I can visit him at home and verify for myself that the doctors didn't remove anything they weren't supposed to.

The heater seems to be working, it just seems to have un-calibrated itself, maybe because the room is a bit cold and I've increased the water volume over time. I still don't know what the problem originally was but I'm hoping that a warmer ambient temperature will help.

Only one (maybe two?) of the fry seem to have suffered any adverse effect. Unfortunately the one who is a bit sluggish and lying on his side is also the biggest one. 😕 Hoping he bounces back.

Good news is that they've done a good amount of growing in the past couple of days. Hatchery is still giving me a hard time due to temperature probably but they're doing alright with the frozen daphnia.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

OK, now they're _really _starting to look like fish. I'll upload pics when I go over to do their evening feeding in a couple hours.

The heater is getting the aquarium back up to 79-80° now. I still have no idea what happened but all's well that ends well.

Adding frozen daphnia into the mix (and occasional microworms) seems to be both stimulating growth and helping prevent swim bladder issues.

I think this spawn has been a great example of why a variety of foods is so important. This experience, along with some reading I've done on the IBC Technical Assistance Library has kind of changed my mind about some things.

First of all, feeding microworms definitely correlates to missing ventrals, I don't think there's any arguing that point. I used to agree with the increasingly common consensus that the MWs basically rot on the bottom of the tank and burn off ventral fins. Now though, I think it has to do with nutritional deficiency and gene expression. So, by feeding MWs alongside BBS and other foods that make up for whatever MWs lack, I think you can make up for it. We'll see how it plays out but I've been observing ventrals on my fish despite continued (resumed?) use of MWs.

Second, I don't think BBS are the holy grail fry food they're held out to be. My fry love them, but there is absolutely a correlation with swim bladder problems and bouts of irregular swimming. Mixing BBS and MWs, I'm observing now, can cut back on that ill effect too. While I'd rather lose one or two out of 70 to swim bladder issues than have to cull or rehome an entire spawn with missing ventrals, I think it's possible to strike a solid balance and avoid both problems.

(To summarize points one and two, I think 2/3 BBS + 1/3 MWs is a solid feeding program during weeks two and three.)

Third, I regret nothing about introducing frozen foods early. Do I have to siphon more? Yes. Are the daphnia producing some really nice growth in my fish, evening out some of the BBS-induced bloating, and making my life a lot easier? Also yes.

I'm going to be stepping up to grindal worms soon but my culture is a bit slow to start. Might move the wormies down to a cabinet above the oven since they like warmer temperatures.

Anyway... wheeee I'm so excited!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm glad your father is recovering. I know the feeling since I have a 90 yr old father who has to be rushed to the hospital from time to time. 

I also glad to hear things turned out for the better. Hope they stay that way. Things should get easier since you'll have more food options as fry get bigger.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Forgot to post photos the other day but here is one good shot I got:










As you can see they're quite small for almost 5 weeks. I think dividing the spawn is going to be necessary, so it looks like I better get ready for that...


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Tonight I cleaned the bottom of the tub, added water, and fed BBS. While I was cleaning I found a dead fry. ☹ it was one of the bigger, more developed ones.

I tested my water and saw that ammonia was (maybe?) ever so slightly up. Not even .25ppm but even a little is not ideal. Wondering if there could have been some other cause.

I think I'll split the growout into two tubs as soon as possible tomorrow and do a big water change in the process. Hoping I can get a bit of time to go into town for an air valve so I can run my spare sponge filter (and buy another tub - though I may have another lying around).


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Well, I found another two dead fry. Something is going on. I wonder if I'm overfeeding them. I'm slowly but surely dividing them up and giving them a big water change in growout #1.

Today was a total clusterjam for non-fish-related reasons (including a frozen pipe I had to thaw) so I'm hoping not to be at this until much later in the night but I'm certain I'll be awake for a while.

I'm not pleased to be sharing this but I think it's important to share both successes and failures, so here I am!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

OK, it's been a few days since I updated. The fry are doing really well since being divided into two growouts. Growout #2 has about 30 of the biggest fry and the rest are still hanging around in growout #1. They're still small but I've noticed they're growing faster, especially those that were moved to growout #2.

I've been increasing the number and volume of water changes and have some worries about shocking the fry every time but haven't lost any to that process so things are looking good.

Water parameters seem to be back to normal but I'll continue to monitor.

They're hungrier these days so today I'm going to work on setting up another BBS hatchery. The grindal worm culture is taking a while to get off the ground so I'm moving it downstairs into a drawer to see if the warmth and darkness helps.

I'm starting to see both red and black fins in addition to traces of iridescence which is cool!

Some pics:


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Just dumb cell phone photos today but here they are:


































The lighter colored fry are all but impossible to photograph; they end up looking like floating eyes and bellies. But these dark colored fry are growing quite well.

My grindal worm culture is providing an additional source of food for them, which seems to be helping.

There are still some fry who are way behind in growth in the more crowded of the two growouts (#1). Nonetheless I think I'll let the biggest fry in growout #2 get up to jarring size before I transfer more of them over.

They're getting daily big water changes now (40-50%) and while this has been good for inducing growth, I did lose one to stress (I think) during a water change.

I'm trying not to spend _all _of my free time staring at them (a watched pot never boils after all) but I'm just so excited about them still.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

Spent some time yesterday cleaning and organizing the fish room, doing water changes, and watching the fry closely. It's a much more pleasant place to hang out now.

I've been feeding grindal worms whenever I can harvest enough for a meal. Also continuing with BBS and frozen daphnia. It's kind of sporadic but variety is the spice of life (and for betta fry, it _is_ life).

They get fed as many times a day as I can feed them. I'm dropping water changes down to every other day but doing bigger water changes. I'm still cleaning the bottom every day since grindals are kind of dirty, but this is easy now as the fry don't get sucked up by the turkey baster anymore.

One interesting thing I've noticed in the past couple of days is that the fry are becoming curious. They'll swim right up to the turkey baster or the pipettes I feed them with, and when I'm taking photos they now congregate wherever the camera is.

Took some photos this morning too but the forum is being weird again so I'll add them in a separate post.


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

I really love it when the get to the curious stage.


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

It's been a while since my last update. There have been a few big changes, one being that the fry are no longer getting newly hatched BBS every day, which is SUCH a relief.

They get grindal worms, frozen brine shrimp and daphnia, and occasionally Ken's golden pearls.

Also, some of the runts have been cannibalized. While not ideal, I don't have to cull them now, so that's... okay, I guess?

I did rescue one runt who was getting picked on a lot and will be testing my jarring system on him to make sure he's comfortable.

I'm using seedling heat mats to keep the jars warm. I'll report back on how this works out. The biggest fry are still a bit smaller than I'd like for jarring, but they're starting to show more serious aggression so I might not have a choice in the timing.


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## WesTexBetta (Nov 1, 2021)

I can’t wait for these to color up! Might be in the market if you get some nice males!


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## aquaticanimals (11 mo ago)

mollyyymo said:


> I'm excited to be sharing about my first spawn in a few years. I've been taking pretty meticulous handwritten notes but will give you just the highlights in this thread.
> 
> View attachment 1036739
> 
> ...


I just read this entire thread and enjoyed the whole thing and am absolutely going to keep waiting and watching for these babies to grow up because they're so cute!!!!!!!


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## mollyyymo (May 21, 2010)

aquaticanimals said:


> I just read this entire thread and enjoyed the whole thing and am absolutely going to keep waiting and watching for these babies to grow up because they're so cute!!!!!!!


Thank you! They still have quite a bit of growing to do but I've started jarring early since they're starting to nip. They're still only averaging about an inch in length, maybe a bit less.

Some cell phone pics from earlier:


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

They're beautiful!!! Love the last ones colouring, almost reminds me of moonlight


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

Amazing colors!! The black ones are soo beautiful...!!


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## aquaticanimals (11 mo ago)

mollyyymo said:


> Thank you! They still have quite a bit of growing to do but I've started jarring early since they're starting to nip. They're still only averaging about an inch in length, maybe a bit less.
> 
> Some cell phone pics from earlier:
> View attachment 1039853
> ...


Oh my god they're huge now! That's so awesome!


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

How old are they now?


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