# sudden occurence of fin rot



## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

my new DT betta in the filtered 2.5g had a nearly perfect set of fins aside from that tail biting from shipping (can be seen in avy). just came back to see 1cm of fin rot on both caudal tails and some on the dorsal. he was in a 2.5g 27cesius heated tank. had a 50wc 2 days ago, ial 7.0ph and anacharis in the tank.

i immediately got him started on AQ salt. top caudal tain is spilt halfway in and outer edges of bottom caudal is nearly 7mm missing uniformly. going to take a pic when i acclimate him and put him in the 1gal. edges of his fins are brown.

is it common enough for this much damage to occur within 12hours? the bottom caudal isnt as worrying as the top caudal tail.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Get that pic up ASAP. It IS not common to see fin rot move that fast. Is the coloring brown or more of a silver-gray? There's a disease that is highly fatal, starts this way. I need to see pics to rule it out.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Get that pic up ASAP. It IS not common to see fin rot move that fast. Is the coloring brown or more of a silver-gray? There's a disease that is highly fatal, starts this way. I need to see pics to rule it out.


thank you very much for the quick reply Sakura. the pics are uploading, its more of a reddish brown. which desease would it be in worst case? what would cause this fatal disease to occur?

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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, the really great news is your guy definitely doesn't have that disease. As of right now, we don't even know what disease it is exactly. We only know the symptoms and the outcome. It starts with a black, almost graphite-colored patch spreading from the fins to the body in a matter of hours. It kills usually within a day. But your guy IS OKAY. Bad news is I think he might be a tailbiter still. I don't see the brown in the pics but I have a feeling this much damage is from tailbiting. The brown may be the beginnings of fin rot but the fin loss is from biting. Stress Coat, high-protein diet, warm water, and the usual 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon ought to help prevent the fin rot from advancing any further.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Okay, the really great news is your guy definitely doesn't have that disease. As of right now, we don't even know what disease it is exactly. We only know the symptoms and the outcome. It starts with a black, almost graphite-colored patch spreading from the fins to the body in a matter of hours. It kills usually within a day. But your guy IS OKAY. Bad news is I think he might be a tailbiter still. I don't see the brown in the pics but I have a feeling this much damage is from tailbiting. The brown may be the beginnings of fin rot but the fin loss is from biting. Stress Coat, high-protein diet, warm water, and the usual 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon ought to help prevent the fin rot from advancing any further.


thank you very much, look at the dorsal tail near the end thats the reddish brown. put in extra pics although blurry to show it. my big issue is his top caudal tail is split 3/4 of the lenght. he's always been on stresscoat but im going to get him used to 7.4 instead of 7.0. this is a hard blow for me, that small u form the bottom caudal was healing:-? then this. i dont mean to sound preferential but if it happened to Nel then it wouldnt be as bad but still quite shocking. i like Nelliel quite a bit more for the colors.

if im lucky and its just sever finrot and biting, how will i know when the finrot is gone?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, I can see the brown spots. Looks like a little like blood. Wow, he really did a number on himself.  I can see why you'd like Nelliel, he is a gorgeous, gorgeous guy. 

One product you might consider ordering from Foster and Smith Aquatics is Vita-Chem freshwater. You put a drop per gallon in the tank and you also soak their food in it a few times a week. It's really good for encouraging fin regrowth.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Okay, I can see the brown spots. Looks like a little like blood. Wow, he really did a number on himself.  I can see why you'd like Nelliel, he is a gorgeous, gorgeous guy.
> 
> One product you might consider ordering from Foster and Smith Aquatics is Vita-Chem freshwater. You put a drop per gallon in the tank and you also soak their food in it a few times a week. It's really good for encouraging fin regrowth.


thank you, that little guy sure did go into a frenzy. Nel is chronic and more agressive, never did such a number on himself. Nelliel is the calmer betta and im starting to rethink that a bit. the blood also shows on the center top caudal. i'll definately get the vita chem freshwater, it will be useful for both of my betta. i'll check the 2 LPS nearby for that, not too worried about the price i'll have to pay to get Nelliel back to health. he's been acclimated to AQ salt and 7.6 ph within 2 minutes, i do expect some more damage as he gets used to AQ salt. put a bit of tannins infor light colour. off to LPS now.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good luck at the LPS!


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

im back, not much luck, did get betta revive for prevention/control of protozoan, bacterial and fungal diseases. says it has active ingredients for fast recovery. not sure if it will work for biting but it'll be handy if theres some diseases.


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## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

API stress coat is also good for fin biters (wow, he really did a number on himself! poor boy... poor you!). Also high protein food should encourage fresh growth, live if possible, frozen if not.
He looks like a beauty, hope you get him straightened out!


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

thank you Silver fang, Nelliel has always been on fin regrowth dose of stress coat since he arrived.he can eat flakes and frozen BW. he never got into brineshrimp back in Thailand.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

an update hes biten the top rear half of his top caudal , tooks 2-3 spines on the middle bottom caudal and started on the middle rear of his dorsal. most of the new araes have drawn blood.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

sorry to hear about your Nelliel's tail biting issue. I have a question: Is there a reason why you are upping the pH from 7.0 to 7.6? That is a rather drastic change. I understand that Betta prefer slightly acidic to neutral pH. I am just curious and would like to learn more


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

earthworm88 said:


> sorry to hear about your Nelliel's tail biting issue. I have a question: Is there a reason why you are upping the pH from 7.0 to 7.6? That is a rather drastic change. I understand that Betta prefer slightly acidic to neutral pH. I am just curious and would like to learn more


he's a thai betta, he was on 7.0 when i got him. i figured of weaning him off it 7,0 by .2 ph to got to 7.6. he just got to his fins before i could raise the ph level. i know the 7.0-7.6 is stressful but he did all that dammage in less than 12hours. id rather not imagine leaving him to wean off that slowly, probably wouldve gotten worse. i didnt have a tank ready with 7.0 ph water ready, first thing i did was put him aq salt, strescoat conditioner an 7.6.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh, I'm not sure I understood before. So you're fiddling with the pH? Hmm. Not advised, it's best to let him adjust to whatever pH you have than to try and adjust it. It's very difficult to get a stable pH using uppers/downers and a fluctuating pH will do more harm than a pH he's not used to.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Oh, I'm not sure I understood before. So you're fiddling with the pH? Hmm. Not advised, it's best to let him adjust to whatever pH you have than to try and adjust it. It's very difficult to get a stable pH using uppers/downers and a fluctuating pH will do more harm than a pH he's not used to.


he's been on 7.0 until he went to bite his tail. its been 2 days on 7.6. im using IAL to play with PH. its only been 7.6 once he went into QT. not sure if i should tough it out in 7.6 or go back to 7.0. 7.6 is also best for my anacharis, extended lighting hours would compensate for slightly darker water. im tempted to add IAL to take the QT ph to 7.2 and work up to 7.4.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. Your call but the fluctuating pH could do more harm than good. I hope he stops messing with his tail though, it's too pretty to bite. Good luck! Keep us posted.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Hmm. Your call but the fluctuating pH could do more harm than good. I hope he stops messing with his tail though, it's too pretty to bite. Good luck! Keep us posted.


no new trouble spots appeared since last post, even saw a decent buble nest in the corner. ive put some tannins for light color in QT. dont want to guess if he a bit more used to his QT water (im supersticous) but its looking a bit hopeful atm for the tail biting. not 100 sure whats next but i'll figure out something. 

checked the qt water, its 7.2 so its not that bad. i did the previous tests without doing a new water comparison. though the PH flucuation really is due to panic when i first saw him with the tail damage.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bubblenests are a good sign and yeah, I understand the panicking.  I'd panic too if I saw that pretty tail disappearing. Another thing you might try to keep him calm is just turn off his tank light and keep his tank as dim and quiet as possible for a day.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Bubblenests are a good sign and yeah, I understand the panicking.  I'd panic too if I saw that pretty tail disappearing. Another thing you might try to keep him calm is just turn off his tank light and keep his tank as dim and quiet as possible for a day.


 
ah, thats one thing i didnt notice. since recently (past 5 days in 2.5g) ive kept the light on 2-3 times longer for the anacahris to get light to grow/adapt. the qt has a blue light but i haven't use it for a few weeks. the max watts is 5w but any LPS lights are minimum 7w, looks like 5w are obsolete now :s.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I had to go to Home Depot to get anything less than 7w.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> I had to go to Home Depot to get anything less than 7w.


ty Sakura, home depot it shall be. its just so surprising they've stopped that wattage for the most part.

atleast Nelliel has given me a chance to save whats left of the shocked anacharis. water is still orange from tanins but ph is better now 7.2.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good to hear. About the pH I mean.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

there he goes again, hes after his top caudal. he doesnt bite it at all when im in the room. when i leave the room or shut the lights off, dont know if its a combo of them. was out of my room for the past 4 hrs lights off. was in my room for half of the day and he was fine. i havent put the 2 bettas near each other for fear they'll stress out. think i may have to test it out now 

the top third of the top caudalhas widened and the bottom of top caudel was remover these past 4 hours.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh why do these bettas love stressing us out so? Clean water, AQ salt, Stress Coat. That's all I can suggest to keep the bitten parts from getting infected. Sadly, I have no good suggestions to prevent tail biting. If I did, I'd write a book and make a mint.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Oh why do these bettas love stressing us out so? Clean water, AQ salt, Stress Coat. That's all I can suggest to keep the bitten parts from getting infected. Sadly, I have no good suggestions to prevent tail biting. If I did, I'd write a book and make a mint.


you hit the nail on the head. last night i was rahter close to giving up on my bettas. i put the 1 QT tanks together for a few seconds. got Nellieil going for a minute or so. i put paper between the tanks shortly after. is it a good idea for them to get used to each other?if its stresses when i gone he might get used to seeing Nel and they'll distract each other. 

now they're both looking at specials for Canadian Tire (sells any sort of merchandise minus live animals). the flyer is between the 1 gal and .5g. i hope the colours of the paper will distract both of them. i dont know if he does this BC the heavy tail but i dont think its the case.

if you ever write that book id be one of the first to get it. lol


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm torn between saying don't let them get used to each other because possibly allowing them to see each other a few minutes a day might help prevent the tailbiting and keep them entertained. They'd never know when the mystery betta would show up so they'd be occupied with waiting (hopefully). But on the other hand, if Nelliel is biting because he's stressed out, maybe seeing and knowing Nel is there would calm him down. I guess the only way to find out which is the best method is to experiment.

I don't think he bites because his tail is too heavy either. It's a gorgeous tail but it doesn't look nearly as heavy as some HM tails I've seen (some of those Aquabid HMs have tails bigger than their whole body!). Even my own HM has a huge tail and somedays, when I watch him struggling to lug it around, I wish he WOULD bite some off to make it easier but he never has. I'm thinking SOMETHING is stressing Nelliel out and that's what we need to find out so we can remove the stressor.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm torn between saying don't let them get used to each other because possibly allowing them to see each other a few minutes a day might help prevent the tailbiting and keep them entertained. They'd never know when the mystery betta would show up so they'd be occupied with waiting (hopefully). But on the other hand, if Nelliel is biting because he's stressed out, maybe seeing and knowing Nel is there would calm him down. I guess the only way to find out which is the best method is to experiment.
> 
> I don't think he bites because his tail is too heavy either. It's a gorgeous tail but it doesn't look nearly as heavy as some HM tails I've seen (some of those Aquabid HMs have tails bigger than their whole body!). Even my own HM has a huge tail and somedays, when I watch him struggling to lug it around, I wish he WOULD bite some off to make it easier but he never has. I'm thinking SOMETHING is stressing Nelliel out and that's what we need to find out so we can remove the stressor.


i agree, i have to find out why he gets so stressed when im gone. he's 6 months old. do far i could consider he was removed from the grow out tank too quick to miss companionship of fellow betta. i'll see how the flyer does to to distract him with colours. if it fails i'll seriously consider letting them say hello and become neighbors.

just came back from seeing a movie, its 5pm (gone for 3.5hr) and the tail hasnt gotten worse yet. i'll have to try out leaving them at ceratin hours to see when the conditions are to bite his tail. do you think it'll destress if i leave the 1gal tank light on all night? it wont get too dark but i dont know if sleep deprivation will add to the problem. whats worse is my work schedule i wake at 2am to get to work and come back at 3pm. id have to go early to sleep 6-8pm. it'll limit what i can do when im on working days.


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## beasley (Aug 12, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm torn between saying don't let them get used to each other because possibly allowing them to see each other a few minutes a day might help prevent the tailbiting and keep them entertained. They'd never know when the mystery betta would show up so they'd be occupied with waiting (hopefully). But on the other hand, if Nelliel is biting because he's stressed out, maybe seeing and knowing Nel is there would calm him down. I guess the only way to find out which is the best method is to experiment.
> 
> I don't think he bites because his tail is too heavy either. It's a gorgeous tail but it doesn't look nearly as heavy as some HM tails I've seen (some of those Aquabid HMs have tails bigger than their whole body!). Even my own HM has a huge tail and somedays, when I watch him struggling to lug it around, I wish he WOULD bite some off to make it easier but he never has. I'm thinking SOMETHING is stressing Nelliel out and that's what we need to find out so we can remove the stressor.


i think i got the same issue :'( i got this gorgeous fellow on a whim a week or so ago
.
























i do have a 10 gallon w. a divider. but when i woke up one day i noticed his tail was gone. could this be because he sees the other female and he cant get to her?!? i have him quarantined just in case & cant get salt or stress coat for another week but im doin daily 100% water changes...it just breaks my heart tho.
& this is him now


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

damn yours has a much more serious case 0.0. i know how you feel to wake up to that. im going to introduce my 2 betta if this last attempt fails. does yours do that in the evening also? how old is he approximately?


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## beasley (Aug 12, 2011)

yeah he did it during the night cuz i did a water change and both of the fish were fine. and i did a pretty massive water change. prolly like 80% of it. then i woke up eager to feed my fish and his tail was like that  im not sure how old he is is there a way to find out?
i got him from a small mom n pops store by my house so he's only a couple weeks old in my care. there were some red especially on his top fin(sorry i dont know the specific names for each fins) & some on the cream part. but its not turning brown or black so i ruled out fin rot. i just think he gets bored cuz i dont have anything in the tank other than some plants so i put a floating device in his quarantine tank to keep him somewhat occupied hopefully that helps & im doing daily 100% water changes


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

beasley said:


> yeah he did it during the night cuz i did a water change and both of the fish were fine. and i did a pretty massive water change. prolly like 80% of it. then i woke up eager to feed my fish and his tail was like that  im not sure how old he is is there a way to find out?
> i got him from a small mom n pops store by my house so he's only a couple weeks old in my care. there were some red especially on his top fin(sorry i dont know the specific names for each fins) & some on the cream part. but its not turning brown or black so i ruled out fin rot. i just think he gets bored cuz i dont have anything in the tank other than some plants so i put a floating device in his quarantine tank to keep him somewhat occupied hopefully that helps & im doing daily 100% water changes


join the club, i'll post any solutions that work for my 2 betta here when i find it. im still blindfolded looking for a way out of this situation also. right now im leaving a desk light on while im out of the room until i go to sleep as he browses a store flyer. nelliel is most likely fine in the 2.5 BC the same issues are in the 1g. 

i was going to ask you if you could ask the breeder you got it from butthats not the case. i can only guess the age or ask the breeder myself. my best guess for my VT is 1yr old bc i heard thats the usual age for best finnage to sell at shops. god only know his age.

i wouldnt know if the female stresses him, i dont have any divided tank nor female betta.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Beasley, how big are the holes in your divided 10g? theres a new thread here where the user said the 2 bettas bite the fins if one of them rests near the divider. apparetnly the holes in the built in divider are too big.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I know my one guy who bit everything off did so because something startled/scared him. He did this during my 2 hour nap right after the commotion. Since then, nothing has stressed him enough to bite again.







Do either of you know if your bettas are in a high-traffic area? Can you think of any loud noises that might scare them?


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## beasley (Aug 12, 2011)

the divider is fine its not like that one w. huge holes thats not even a divider! poor fishes :/ well i just moved my tank from my nightstand to the dresser which is right by my tv (which hasnt been on in months ) so maybe when i get my clothes it startles him?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Could be but I think you'd have to be pretty noisy about getting dressed (tossing clothes left and right, lol). My first thought was the TV but since it's not on then . . . hmm. Any pets that might stare or paw at the tank?


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## beasley (Aug 12, 2011)

no not that at all.. i think its just cuz i havent had money to put anything in the tank other than some plants. im planning on getting some caves & such next week when i get paid..any suggestions?


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

Not to thread hijack, but I just wanted to add I am having persistent tail biting or perhaps blowing problems with my Thai halfmoon import Floyd. He sounds just like Nelliel, super active and interactive and the damage is always when I am not there and/or the lights are out. I also find that EVERY day of fasting will result in major fin chewage and have ceased fasting because it obviously causes stress. Also any day where there were no lights (and fasting as I was not there) he's done major chomping.

The only thing I found that helped was upping the food intake and not messing with the ph. I have not found that flaring or tank decor made much of a difference. I am also feeding NLS betta pellets and NLS thera A, with an occasional hikari pellet.

I tried doing the exact same thing as you nel3 in that I am using RO water to bring the ph to 7.2 (the ph in the bag when I got him) from my tap which is 7.8-8.0. After I did some reading about what bettas can adjust to, and after I tested my tap for hardness I decided I would slowly and gradually up the ph and later try to slightly reduce it through peat. I did this because I tested for hardness and my water was actually rather soft and I was concerned about the low mineral content with RO.

That was 3 days ago and his tail looks beyond chewed, maybe blown? I plan on starting a new thread for suggestions, but wanted to share that I think there is a correlation between ph, thai bred bettas and chewed up tails. I also think that some of the meal plans that people advocate are a bit on the light side for the larger bettas I have recieved from thailand (I know have 3) and their huge tails. 

The Thai betta I currently have in the best tail condition is: the youngest, smallest, least active, and the finickiest eater that will not eat pellets and only frozen bloodworms so far. And I have kept him at his original ph in betta spa.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

i dont mind you jumping in lessandler. i havent tried fasting him, was planning o that bc DT are prone to that but now i'll just feed him 75% of daily food. i was around the tank long enough (til 10pm mostly) or a light on when i was gone for a while. he blew his top caudal abit between 8 and 10pm. im a bit more against introducing the 2 atm for blowing their tails now. the dorsal is missing 1/4 fin (triangular 5mm deep and wide, one spine still there) where the fin folds on itself. i'll go to the LPS to test to look for more anacharis and test the water hardness and get a kit for myself while im at it. btw whats RO? i havent memorised all abrev. current 1g ph is 7.0. i'll get epsom salt since fasting might be harmful to tailbiting

the deepest hole is the newst on top caudal.


@Sakura: the tank location is not a high traffic area but my alarm wakes (volume on low) me up with music at 2pm and nelliel's tank has always been around my computer so any music tv on the pc may be a bit too much. i have the volume on moderate most of the time, though i know that sound does even better in water. the other tank location was on top of my drawer holding my clothes with sliding drawers. i make sure i do it as quietly as possible to avoid loud noises when theres a fish on top of it. no extra pets in the house either.

ATM im watcning him make a bubble nest in the 1g.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

checked gh and kh on fresh tap water and the water in the 1g. fresh 200ppm gh, 20ppm kh, 1 gal water 160ppm gh, 20ppm kh. 
the 2.5g atm is 7.2 ph, 20ppm kh and 140gh

how many tests are the gh/kh tests from api good for. the nutrafin gh bottle is 10ml and 15ml for kh.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The API test for GH/KH depends. If you have really high GH/KH like me, probably for about 90 uses maybe? I dunno. The higher the GH/KH, the lower the uses, I know that.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

thank you Sakura. yesterday his tail was relatively fine with minimal damage. i did feed him yesterday before i went to sleep to discourage tailbiting and i spent most of my time near him. 

i brought him downstairs today in a glass to show a friend who keeps a salt water community tank. bad idea his bottom caudal blew halfway in 2 places. he handled the cup as if it were a goldfish in it grrr. i got vita chem freshwater ordered just today.for a fish person he seems confident betta are meant to stay in small tanks to confine agression ie mason jars. i'll get pics of the tail soom enough.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

the blown section also has a ray ready to split open, dorry for blurry pic but its really hard to catch him still and show the 2 sections. atm im giving full dose for stress coat fin treatment and prime, should i cut back on prime?


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

i hope i havent spoken too soon but it looks like i might have Nelliel's tail under control. for the past few days he hasnt lost much of the bottom caudal. think some ph adjustment was on the table and hunger got his tail. the WC 3 days ago he lost some section of the bottom caudal but that was bc i didnt feed him in time. ive been feeding him half his food (or less) at 3-4 pm and the rest around 7:30-9pm. he seems to stop with his tail biting when fed late at night before going to sleep. had him avoid biting for 3 days in a row and probabablyeven more if i continue like this.

his top caudal is healing well to close the gaps in the rays remaining. the bottom caudal is less advanced BC of his biting but its slowly healing. ive partially given up on AQ salt for him since it doesnt really do much to prevent it but it doesnt mean ive abandoned AQ salt treatment for my 2 betta. nel is also healing well, hes filled in the space between rays and new ray growth is appearing on the caudal.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow, that pics looks awful but I'm glad to hear it's going better with Nelliel. You could cut back on the Prime if you want but I don't think it hurts things to have both in there.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Wow, that pics looks awful but I'm glad to hear it's going better with Nelliel. You could cut back on the Prime if you want but I don't think it hurts things to have both in there.


thank you. its been stressful for 90% of this ordeal with Nelliel's tail. ive stopped prime for him. he's in the 1gal so 1 or 2 days wont mean that much effect to cut down ammonia. i might add a drop after a day but thats it.

heres a recent pic from 2 days ago. at this point ive given up worrying over the tail loss. i'll still have to deal with it if it happens. though the bottom caudal is still healing decently (stress coat) and my parents will bring over teh vita chem freshwater on monday or tuesday. its a bit hard to see the healed areas BC they're clear but they are closing up.


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