# Sick Betta keeps getting sicker HELP Needed!!!!



## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Alrightie I would be sincerely grateful if anyone had any idea WHAT was going on to my poor lil' fishy fellow. Long story shortened to easy reading.
Got him at pet store-> he did great!-> didnt realize he needed bigger tank and heater-> he got sick BECAUSE he didnt have a heater -> got heater cycled tank put fish in tank-> Fish got better thanks to tetrasafe(s?) life guard fungus killer aquarium salt and heater-> drove back to school set up new tank-> cycled tank-> floated fish et cetera-> continued with lifeguards fungus killer aquarium salt and heater stuff -> fish got finrot-> did 25 % change and waited 24 hours before starting maracyn II-> started maracyn II -> Fish got Ich and Velvet -> Continued with Maracyn II and Salt -> Fish got in addition; PARASITES (we didnt have enough problems?!)-> Added Coppersafe-> parasites died-> ich and velvet did NOT die-> fish is still eating and making bubble nests-> is currently very lethargic and sits on tail at bottom of tank going blahhhhhh.

Very long story somewhat short; Fish has been sick for over a month despite treatment. Any ideas?? I`m worried because of how he's using his tail he might have TB..... So its either my water or his immune system.

Housing 
What size is your tank? 3 gallons
What temperature is your tank? 80-85 degrees since he's sick
Does your tank have a filter? yes I believe its charcoal
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? Yes!
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? None

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Betta pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? 2 times a day 3 pellets

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? once a week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Coppersafe, Betta Safe water conditioner, aquarium salt

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: not on strip test
Nitrite:0..5
Nitrate:20
pH:6.5-7.0
Hardness: 30
Alkalinity: not on strip test
KH: 40 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Yes; his color has deteriorated and after his bout with fin rot his fins are recovering

How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Yes hes more sluggish but he still eats and makes bubble nests. He is however breathing more and isn't favoring swimming anymore Not as prone to dart or play

When did you start noticing the symptoms?over 3 weeks ago

Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? 
Yes once I noticed the first infection I did a full water change, used Maracyn 2 and then got him a heater and bigger tank. His pop eye and slime coat infection diminished. I then noticed that he was developing Ich and velvet so I continued Maracyn 2 and added aquarium salt and coppersafe.(He still has it! ><) A few days later I noticed he had fin tail rot AND some external parasites. After about a week and a half of treatment the parasites are gone, however he still has the ich velvet and tail rot. Now he is acting fatigued and doesn't want to move. Instead he lays at an odd angle at the bottom of the tank.

Does your fish have any history of being ill? Just got him so no idea
How old is your fish (approximately)? No idea

Thank you for reading!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Welcome.. and woah that's a lot!

Okay, lets get down to the nitty gritty of it all...

3 gals.. not cycled, as it's pretty much impossible to cycle a tank that size since not enough surface space... as well as you doing 100% weekly water changes will pretty much narrow down and remove beneficial bacteria.

Carbon filters will remove medicine placed in the tank- always remove the carbon out of the filters when doing medications.

Medications, always best to use a small QT container/tank instead of home tank as most times you will want to be doing daily water changes and in a filtered tank, it's unwise to do so.

Why did you put in fungus guard and AQ salt in when he was just sick from "lack of heater"? Lack of heater= lethargy.. nothing more. 
You want to be careful when putting in AQ salt in at the same time as a lot of medications.. they don't always mix well.

Okay.. lets stop there and deal with the AQ issue.. how long has he been in AQ salt, how much have you been using? 

AQ salt is good for certain types of exterior illnesses.. it should only be used for no more then 10 days, as if kept in longer you are putting your fish in a very high risk for liver and kidney damage/failure.. AQ salt is basically dehydrating the fish, why such a time limit on there. You should also do 100% daily water changes when using AQ salt, by not doing those, and adding in additional salt, you will well go over the salt tolerance limit of the betta, which is 3 teaspoons per gallon. 

AQ salt should be discontinued immediately.

Fungus killer, unless you see actual fungus on the fin- white cottony patches with little hairs.. then you do not want to use it.

Fin rot happens when a fish tears/rips/bites their fins and the water is unfavorable- normally dirty water.. there are two types of fin rot- bacterial and fungal.. I doubt it would be fungal if you had him on fungus medication during it.. I doubt bacteria since the water was fresh. Now, did you see the black, crusty edges with chunks flaking off? Or white cottony puffs at the ends? Or are there just missing chunks/pieces and shredded? 
He may be biting his own fins due to stress from the medication and move- which is known and common to happen.
The conditions did not favor rot forming, and if so, then that is some seriously strong rot.. I would have to make an educated guess that he was biting his fins.. they like to do it during the dark when no one is looking.. they are ashamed. Silly fish..

Maracyn II.. did you keep the tank dim/dark? Did you do the proper water changes? Going from fungus medication and salt, then adding in the Maracyn with only a 25% water change is very dangerous.. 

Did he have white grains of salt all over his body? I can see a fish stressed enough to get ick with all he had went through .. and how sure are you of velvet?
Just shining a light on him won't tell you 100% that it's velvet- 99% of fish will have a natural gold coloration when under such a bright light/flash- you will see many more colors of them when doing so, then you do normally. So unless he was darting around, scratching, you could see the dusting of rust/gold on his body.. I wouldn't say he had velvet.. 

How did you come to the knowledge that he had parasites? What were the symptoms? Are they internal or external parasites? 

Basically.. what you should do at this time is remove him, place him in a small QT container/tank with just water conditioner. He needs to clean out his system.. he should have his system cleaned out between medications as it is. Also large water changes should be done frequently, and most of those you would want to do daily 100% water changes.

He is in shock and should be placed in clean, untreated water (just water conditioner). If it's a small container, float it in his home tank to keep him warm.

Bubble nests aren't a sign of happiness/health, but territory, breeding and weather systems.

If you can, take a picture of him so we can verify/diagnose his problems and point you in the correct treatment, as the treatments you have been doing so far has been damaging him rather then helping, I'm sorry to say.. sometimes we can do too much when trying to help.. and sometimes we misdiagnose problems too easily.. why pictures will help to give you an ideal from experienced members on what exactly is going on other then over-medication.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

When he didnt have a heater he was covered in an excessive slime coating and was starting to get the white fluffy patches on his skin.


Hopefully he is just stressed and chewing since all the rot that had been falling off is now gone and there is regrowth on his top fin.
I don't put salt in that often, only after full water changes and it's only 1/2 a teaspoon (definitely stopping that now!)

On maracyn I did a full water change and let him alone for about 24 hours, which is what I was told to do by another betta specialty site (actually most of this was from another betta site....o_0 Im not going there again!)


He definitely has Ich he has the salt speckles everywhere and that isn't his normal coloring.

Velvet diagnosis by the other site >_> (boy am I feeling kinda silly!)

Parasites; Only easiest thing to figure out; he had these little rounded things on him and theyd move around (ie: one day on fins another day on stomach) and then they'd get longer. He was scratching at the bottom of the tank and against the plants and heaters. However once I treated him with the coppersafe it got rid of the parasites within a week. Which was rather impressive.

I was actually relieved he was creating bubble nests and eating, because that meant he didnt have anything too serious.

If I do a full water change clean everything and let it sit over night will that make the water safe to put him in? or should I find a plastic container? (I dont have a hospital tank because Im loaning it out to another girl who's quarantining her new betta )
I just did a water change earlier today but with his current behavior I was a little suspicious as to why he kept getting sicker and not better.


Fish pictures:










Heres the best I could get of his possible ich-y ness
Its everywhereeeee!Even on his eye o.0








And here is how he is currently moping about.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

*When he didnt have a heater he was covered in an excessive slime coating and was starting to get the white fluffy patches on his skin.*
With low water temps, what you will see happening is lethargy, possible clamping of fins and not eating _as much_ since their metabolism slows down. Excess slime coating is usually made when warding off an illness or toxin.. fluffy white patches could of been fungus or the slime coat itself. But since those are gone now, no need to worry for them. If in the future you have one that get excess slime coating, just do daily 50% water changes for a few days and that should be enough to clear it up, as it was most likely something in the water causing him to create it.

*Hopefully he is just stressed and chewing since all the rot that had been falling off is now gone and there is regrowth on his top fin.*
Regrowth is a good sign, as long as the weekly water changes are kept up, rot shouldn't form. Stress coat and a high protein diet will help the growth, frozen foods, or pellets/flakes with fish/meat meal as the main ingredient, and crude protein % in the high 40s is ideal. Freeze dried food, once or twice a week, soak it in water prior to feeding it to reduce the risk of bloating. But it's high in protein so it's good to have instead of a meal once or twice a week.

*I don't put salt in that often, only after full water changes and it's only 1/2 a teaspoon (definitely stopping that now!)*
It's more the long term use and exposure to it.. the bacteria can become resistant to the beneficial properties of it, reducing the effectiveness the salt has in treatments.. and some say the fish can become resistant as well. But the body will always continue to dehydrate for as long as the fish is exposed to it.

*On maracyn I did a full water change and let him alone for about 24 hours, which is what I was told to do by another betta specialty site (actually most of this was from another betta site....o_0 Im not going there again!)*
Not all places have wrong information, but it's best to make sure to double check everything and opinions.

*He definitely has Ich he has the salt speckles everywhere and that isn't his normal coloring.*
I can see some of the spreckles on him.. I would go ahead and place him in his home tank (if he is still able to swim up for air and not have trouble doing so- and if he is having trouble, then float his container taped to the inside of his tank).. go ahead and do that in his water with just conditioner, and raise the temp of his water to 86-88*F, that in itself should kill the ick as they can't tolerate that warm of water. It won't harm the betta, as they can tolerate into the 90s before any adverse affect. This way his system is being "cleaned out" and yet it is taking care of the ick problem- continue to do daily 100% water changes to remove any eggs that may drop. If after a week he is still showing signs of ick and darting in his cup, you can try an ich medication.. but they may have become resistant to some of the medicines and ingredients if after all of that they are still alive and on him.. why I think heat will be the best option at this time.

*Velvet diagnosis by the other site >_> (boy am I feeling kinda silly!)*
Don't feel silly, for all you know I could be 100% wrong  He has some darker coloration to him, but I don't see the rust/gold dusting on him- velvet is treated the same as ich, conservatively.. with medicine it could vary. The warmer water would help out greatly if in fact he did have velvet, but I don't see any at this time.

*Parasites; Only easiest thing to figure out; he had these little rounded things on him and theyd move around (ie: one day on fins another day on stomach) and then they'd get longer. He was scratching at the bottom of the tank and against the plants and heaters. However once I treated him with the coppersafe it got rid of the parasites within a week. Which was rather impressive.*
Rather impressive he had gotten parasites while on all the medications to begin with.. lol
As long as you don't see them any more, then you should be fine- they need a host to live. While he is in the cup, just keep an eye on his waste, if you see some that are white, long and stringy, then he has them internally.. but only if you see that.. otherwise, I see no sign of bloating or wasting away on him.

*I was actually relieved he was creating bubble nests and eating, because that meant he didnt have anything too serious.*
Eating is always a good sign.. bubble nests can be too, I don't want to say they don't do it out of happiness, I would like to believe that too. But it's all still a good sign.

*If I do a full water change clean everything and let it sit over night will that make the water safe to put him in? or should I find a plastic container? (I dont have a hospital tank because Im loaning it out to another girl who's quarantining her new betta )*
Go ahead and clean out his tank, but keep him in his little cup for now.. allow the tank to raise to the higher temp of 86 slowly, and do daily 100% water changes in him until you see no more signs of ick- otherwise you will have to be doing daily 100%s in his tank if you return him. Just use a paper clip or somehow wedge it so the cup is upright in his tank. If you have seran wrap (veggie wrap) use that to cover the opening with a hole punched in to keep the humidity up there for him.
To clean his tank, empty it out, boil water and soak/rinse out his decorations and gravel in the water- can let it soak for a bit in the boiling hot water as well to kill off any eggs the ick may have left. Swish clean the filter media, but in just pure tank water you have already in the tank- you want to keep the bacteria alive in there for now. and put everything back together and allow him to float in his little "jacuzzi" and he should be looking better in a few days. But not going to guarantee it, as we can't tell for sure how bad his system is right now, all we can do is provide a clean, warm place for him and hope he is still strong enough to fight.

*I just did a water change earlier today but with his current behavior I was a little suspicious as to why he kept getting sicker and not better.
*
Go ahead with the one I listed above, that way when you return him to his home, all the yucky stuff is out of there and it's nice and clean for him.

It should take a week or less to be rid of the ick- again, if it's not gone in a week then we can treat for that specifically and then go from there if there is anything else that is needing to be done.

For a 3 gallon filtered, you would want to be doing 1 50% water change per week, with regular siphoning of the gravel to keep the water/tank clean for him, with the appropriate bacteria.

Any more questions, just ask and keep us updated on how he is doing.. I may not be back around tonight after I post this.. but I'll check back in the morning sometime. Good luck to you.


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## RandiLynn (Dec 9, 2011)

I agree with Myates. Sometimes medication is the last thing your betta needs. 

I remember once I had strep throat with the complication of glands that swelled my mouth shut. I took about four different medications to try and relieve my pain and discomfort. I thought "Hey, I have a strong stomach, even if only one of these works I'll be that much better off. Can't hurt." Guess what? I vomited all of those meds up. Thats considerably difficult to do when you can't open your mouth. Think about the side-effects of any treatment you administer to your betta also. Generally, the less invasive, the better.

Since you've had salt in the tank, I'd say instead of constant salt, do salt baths to get rid of the ich. Salt baths are higher concentration for short amounts of time. Some bettas do not tolerate any salt well- but can't communicate that to us. So it's up to owners to be observant in behaviour and reactions.

You say you bought him at a pet store. Think about the conditions bettas are kept in at most of these places. Very little, very cold, and very inapprpriately _treated_ water; usually no- or poor quality food; huge stress from shipping, re-jarring, handling, and all the other bettas around them. 

Also, pellets to Betta is like us having non-flavered and kinda dry oatmeal or grits EVERYDAY. They subsist on this- but do not thrive. A sick fish will have an easier time of it getting and staying better if given proper nutrition and environmental conditions.

I suggest you read, read, and read some more on betta care. Most illness is due to a fish being stressed enough to no longer be able to cope- not due to a newly introduced pathogen. Keep that in mind as you do your research. 

Let us know any progress.

Good Luck!

MS


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## RandiLynn (Dec 9, 2011)

Listen to Myates' advice- much more thorough than myself!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks Randi  

Only two things that I differ- no salt baths, as treatment would need constant salt in the water to kill off the ick and the eggs and any free swimming. Right now, the baths would cause unneeded stress for him.

Pellets are actually the best staple food next to live food- but with winter coming for half the world, live food can be harder to get unless you are able to hatch and raise baby brine shrimp.. some smaller LFS may carry other live foods.. frozen are excellent too.. but overall for processed food, pellets tend to be the best to feed for a couple different reasons; the different nutritional needs that need to be met can be packaged in those tiny little round things, as well as it's a lot easier to feed the correct amount to the betta without any falling down and causing problems with the water.
BUT you are very correct in that a balanced, variety of food is needed and best for them.. between pellets, frozen, live (if possible) and even some flakes, with freeze dried as treats make a good variety and balanced diet.. some even use home made food, which there is a recipe from a member on here that could be shared if interested. 

It's not always the conditions they are kept in at fish stores, in the little cups, it's a lot due to the genetics of the mass-bred fish you find in Walmarts and other fish stores. Nowadays, the life expectancy of these guys are far less then they were say 15, 20 years ago sadly. Sometimes we can't help whether or not they become ill, all we can do is give them the best and hope. It's funny how someone can keep one in a bad enviroment for years and it live.. yet another person does above and beyond in care and they still fall ill and pass too early.


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## RandiLynn (Dec 9, 2011)

I keep forgetting that the rest of the world doesn't have access to betta cuisine year-round!

I guess hadn't read all of that post- yes - The salt baths are more just my own method based on individual experience. Totally opinion there (can I put my disclaimer in now?)

I absolutely agree about an individual's breeding. My girl is a poster child for good genes, she's so robust it's ridiculous. Agressively healthy if that makes sense. I just wanted to illustrate on the stress some fish too often undergo and how very much that stress can affect their immune system in and of itself.

MS


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

I've been doing a lot of betta study but I think my mistake came from not having reliable other betta owners to ask!

Thank you so much for your help everyone I appreciate it bunches! And so does my fishy! Ill give him a pep talk with double the pep!

Although I have to say ; he is ONE picky eater he won't eat any of the other betta foods I've given him. Just his pellets. Otherwise he lets them float away. I even tried wiggling it around in the water to make him see its food. Nope no go. Poor guy.


I do have to say though if you guys dont have one already get a leaf hammock. My fish LOVES the thing to death he just floats on it and sleeps as much as he wants.

Out of curiosity; what is an LFS? I've been seeing it all the time in my betta researching and I cant figure it out is it Live Food Stock??
Sorry Im new to bettas I've had goldfish but no betta's before this little one.


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## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

LFS is local fish store/shop
LPS is local pet store/shop


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## RandiLynn (Dec 9, 2011)

Careful! You'll catch the fever.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Thank you so much for this!!

Yeah too late Ive already caught it before this my issue was I kept killing my goldfish XDD.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I just want to second Myates and say I don't see velvet. I had a fish of almost exact same coloring with velvet so I learned to recognize it. This is great news because velvet is very hard to get rid of. You're in good hands here.

And also, welcome to the forum, Chibi.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

RandiLynn said:


> I keep forgetting that the rest of the world doesn't have access to betta cuisine year-round!
> 
> I guess hadn't read all of that post- yes - The salt baths are more just my own method based on individual experience. Totally opinion there (can I put my disclaimer in now?)
> 
> MS


No, you can't put your disclaimer in now. Nope. Too late. Nuh-uh. :tongue:
You're input and opinions count and are welcomed of course! 
Yeah.. we have snow and ice, there are no bugs where I am now 



ChibiShishou said:


> I've been doing a lot of betta study but I think my mistake came from not having reliable other betta owners to ask!
> 
> Thank you so much for your help everyone I appreciate it bunches! And so does my fishy! Ill give him a pep talk with double the pep!
> 
> ...


You are most welcome  After reading your post, I couldn't just walk away lol.. poor you and your little guy lol

I have one that will only eat pellets. Can't tempt him with anything else. Then I have one that will eat anything put in the tank, whether it be food or not.. silly fish. And another who will eat live food, even if I'm not feeding it.. had a gnat that somehow found it's way into the house and silly thing landed in one of the tanks and got gobbled up before I was able to remove it. But that guy will only eat live food or pellets. So I understand picky eaters!

I've been wanting to get a hammock, but most of mine adore their caves more then anything else and will sleep in them only. Except No Name.. he sleeps in his clear plastic 8oz cup that he sometimes will forget how to get out of *facepalm*. I'm just afraid the hammocks would be pointless for the cave dwellers and girls.



ChibiShishou said:


> Thank you so much for this!!
> 
> Yeah too late Ive already caught it before this my issue was I kept killing my goldfish XDD.


We can probably help with that too if you wish.. What problems have you been having? Illnesses or sudden unexpected deaths?


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

I dont have goldfish anymore so its all cool. I just have my little betta boy now. He's actually looking perkier this morning!

Unfortunately I can only have one tank in the dorms so Im limited right now in what I can have. Next year I hope to get some goldfish ^_^
Thank you bunches!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Ahh... if it's a small tank, then that is the problem  Well, if you ever have questions about the goldfish, don't be afraid to ask here, or PM me


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Myates said:


> Ahh... if it's a small tank, then that is the problem  Well, if you ever have questions about the goldfish, don't be afraid to ask here, or PM me



Im rather concerned as I have him in his little jar floating in the tank (which is at a steady 80 degrees) I change his water nightly in his little jar but he hasn't gone to the bathroom, instead theres white flakes and he isn't swimming properly. He seems to be favoring his front half over his back half but he doesnt float like in boucany issues he just sits around lethargically.
Should I treat with epsom salts for constipation?
Thank you for your time


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

ChibiShishou said:


> Im rather concerned as I have him in his little jar floating in the tank (which is at a steady 80 degrees) I change his water nightly in his little jar but he hasn't gone to the bathroom, instead theres white flakes and he isn't swimming properly. He seems to be favoring his front half over his back half but he doesnt float like in boucany issues he just sits around lethargically.
> Should I treat with epsom salts for constipation?
> Thank you for your time


What have you been feeding him, and how much a day?


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

youlovegnats said:


> What have you been feeding him, and how much a day?


he gets 3 pellets twice a day with an occasional blood worm the rest of the parameters will be in the first post of the thread.

He has no medication in him anymore!^^


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Hmm. I'd just fast him right now. All of that medication has probably messed him up quite a bit. I'd say just not to feed him for 2 days and see if that helps.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

youlovegnats said:


> Hmm. I'd just fast him right now. All of that medication has probably messed him up quite a bit. I'd say just not to feed him for 2 days and see if that helps.


Alright thank you very much!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Okay, refreshing my memory- he went through a TON of medication (bad other forum!), and you were dealing with ich- so we went ahead and decided on the clean water heated up to kill off the ich, correct?

How is the ich doing at this time?

As for the white specs you are seeing, possibly slime coating he has shed off.. 

Is there a way to get a picture up of him?

If the ich seems to be gone, you don't see any on him, you may be able to go ahead and return him to his home tank. I'm thinking the other problems you are seeing on him right now is him being stressed- so much going on and so much happening over the last few weeks, he's ready for a vacation.

Go ahead and post a pic if you can so we can see how he is doing, then by that we can tell whether he can return home to recoup or if he needs some additional help.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Myates said:


> Okay, refreshing my memory- he went through a TON of medication (bad other forum!), and you were dealing with ich- so we went ahead and decided on the clean water heated up to kill off the ich, correct?
> 
> How is the ich doing at this time?
> 
> ...


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Wait...are you guys saying that those white/light blue speckles is Ich? 
...cuz I'm pretty sure those are just his scales. Ich looks like salt grains spackled all over. 
He looks really healthy!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Hehe a cutie.. 

I can't tell, but I believe those light colored spots are part of his coloration since to me they don't seem like grains of salt sticking up- but it's hard to see in pictures sometimes.

He does look like he has a full belly- definitely needs a good fasting for a few days as mentioned before. 

If those light colored specks are part of his coloration and he can swim fine then I would say he is good to go home- but if he is having trouble swimming then I would hold him in the cup for 24 hrs with no food- and if he is still bloated and unable to swim properly, we may just toss in some Epsom Salt into his cup to help him.. go to the bathroom.. quicker.

If those are still ick on him.. you may want to raise the temp higher to 85 if you can, if not then 80 is fine and if not better by tomorrow we can see about using medication.

He is doing a lot better now then he was a week ago- sometimes just plain clean water is all that is needed  I'm happy he's doing good!

You beat me gnats! hehe


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah I dunno if thats Ich or not is the problem and I don't have any pictures of him healthy!!!(it'd help if I wasn't colorblind and therefore was more confident in my color identifying abilities!) And I wish I had a picture of him healthy! Argh! XD
I have started fasting him cause I was a little worried he hasn't gone to the toilet yet! And hes looking like Santa!:shock:
I did fast him for a few days last week and then fed him a pea but still nothing. So I may be forced to make a run downtown for some epsom salt. Although the idea of going to an area like that doesnt thrill me but Ill save my fishy! >O<

Perhaps if hes looking better Ill let him swim into his tank.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Ahhh the pea might be the issue. That method is usually used for herbaceous fish like goldfish, not for carnivores.  
Try using Daphnia instead.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

youlovegnats said:


> Ahhh the pea might be the issue. That method is usually used for herbaceous fish like goldfish, not for carnivores.
> Try using Daphnia instead.


I cant get my hands on that. No car and bus only goes near pet stores and such only on weekends.-0-

So Im confused if the pea isnt supposed to be used why does everyone use it (and say to)for constipated betta's??o.0


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

ChibiShishou said:


> So Im confused if the pea isnt supposed to be used why does everyone use it (and say to)for constipated betta's??o.0


*shrugs* 
There is a lot of incorrect information out there  Just have to know where to look. 
I was told on one of my youtube videos that bettas would die in anything bigger than a 3 gallon. =__=


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It can be tricky when color blind- what you are wanting to look for are tiny raised dots- think of small sand grains. If the area on his body around his tail is flat with no grains of salt/sand then he doesn't have it- but if you see the raised dots, then he still does. 

In the cup, does he dart and try to "scratch" his body any? If not, and you don't see any of the salt grains then I would say it is safely gone. 

If he can swim just fine then he can be released into his home now, but if not then keep him in his home and you'll have to get some Epsom soon. 
I wish I could tell you how to get it easier- but any drug store/pharmacy should carry it- Walgreens, Osco, Walmart, USA Drug, etc... it's pretty cheap for a good amount.

Once you get it, you will want to do 1 teaspoon per gallon, dissolve it first, water conditioner, and daily 100% water changes. It should only take a couple of days for it to work- it will help him go to the bathroom and reduce any swelling. It's very gentle on him, so I feel comfortable giving it to him after everything he's been through. 

Good luck and let us know how he is doing. Again, if he's able to swim just fine, go ahead and put him in his home and hopefully just the fasting will help his system catch up.

As for peas- it is for goldfish who is constipated. People use it on bettas because some have success with it.. just have to keep in mind that the bettas can not digest it properly, nor is their intestines set up to handle that sort of roughage. 
In the wild, bettas will get their roughage through the stomachs of their prey, and our domesticated bettas get it in the food already processed. In goldfish, it's the fiber that helps them go to the bathroom that the pea does- but in bettas it's pretty much just an object pushing through their intestines that will, in turn, push out any blockage- at the risk of causing a block with the pea.
It's not ideal to use, some use it with success, but personally, it's still not worth the risk or health.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Alright so out with the peas and in with the epsom salt

1.what if he isnt swimming too well and hes in his little container and it isnt a gallon how much should I dissolve to put in there? like a pinch?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Do me a favor first though.. go ahead and acclimate him to the tank water- remove a bit of cup water and add in the tank water a couple of times for the next 10-15 minutes.. after that, go ahead and release him into his tank and see how he does. 

If he tilts to the side, upside down.. sinks straight to the bottom and lays on his side for more then 3 minutes, struggles very hard to swim.. then scoop him back into his cup and start the Epsom as soon as you can get it. 

If he swims just fine, even if he rests on the bottom, but has no issue going up for air then he is fine without it.

It's like the AQ salt- if you have a gallon water jug you can pre-mix everything in there and use that to do the daily water changes- or if you have a pitcher, tell us the amount of liters/quarts and we can convert it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If you can't find daphnia (which is more than likely, it is kinda hard to find), you can also use frozen brine shrimp. It has quite a bit of fiber as well.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Myates said:


> Do me a favor first though.. go ahead and acclimate him to the tank water- remove a bit of cup water and add in the tank water a couple of times for the next 10-15 minutes.. after that, go ahead and release him into his tank and see how he does.
> 
> If he tilts to the side, upside down.. sinks straight to the bottom and lays on his side for more then 3 minutes, struggles very hard to swim.. then scoop him back into his cup and start the Epsom as soon as you can get it.
> 
> ...


Alright ill get on that he has his water in there already so we`ll see how he does. Otherwise Ill do the epsom salt treatment as prescribed.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

HE WENT TO THE BATHROOM THANK GOODNESS!:-D:-D I dont think Ive ever been so happy to see animal feces in my life!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

ROFL! Good for him! Okay, so not constipated, just a big belly for now.. he hasn't been all that active in a cup, so he probably hasn't digested it as quickly and it kept adding up. So I would hold off on Epsom for now.

How is he doing in his tank?


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Myates said:


> ROFL! Good for him! Okay, so not constipated, just a big belly for now.. he hasn't been all that active in a cup, so he probably hasn't digested it as quickly and it kept adding up. So I would hold off on Epsom for now.
> 
> How is he doing in his tank?


Alright so bad news. His poo was red, like cherry red and it looked a looot like blood.. He's swimming around pretty well


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Could be from the food- poo is usually brown to red-brown. 
Just keep an eye on him and see how he is in the next 24 hours- if something is wrong it will show itself. For now, let him have a little fun back in his home hehe.. best wishes!


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