# My NPT not working out so well :(



## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Here is a picture of the first day:









Everything is nice and green! 

Here is now:









Half of it is brown and dying  I have a 50 watt plant bulb not directly over the tank but in a lamp pointing over it on a timer. I tried to find something closer to 30 watts but 50 was all I could find anywhere. That's probably the problem, isn't it? 








Some of my dying swords


















This is some of the Wisteria trimmings

Anybody have any tips on how I can save my tank? or if they know where I can order a hoodlight (for a 10 gallon) that is the right one for an NPT. I looked everywhere I just couldn't seem to find one, but I could have been looking in the wrong places.

All help is appreciated!


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

go look for a proper hood and plant bulb specifically designed for plant growth make sure its full spectrum or broad spectrum, also double check you have 2-3 watts per gallon. you can find them almost anywhere heck if you know what to look for home improvement stores carry them to but pet stores carry bulbs designed for growth. you also might want to start adding some kind of nutrient supplement / fertilizer to the tank. i use flourish and all the variants of it especially flourish excel which works as CO2 supplement that I have had great success with.


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Creat said:


> go look for a proper hood and plant bulb specifically designed for plant growth make sure its full spectrum or broad spectrum, also double check you have 2-3 watts per gallon. you can find them almost anywhere heck if you know what to look for home improvement stores carry them to but pet stores carry bulbs designed for growth. you also might want to start adding some kind of nutrient supplement / fertilizer to the tank. i use flourish and all the variants of it especially flourish excel which works as CO2 supplement that I have had great success with.


The bulb I have is for plant growth, however I could not find any hood lights that would be proper. All of my hood lights for plants don't have enough watts. I think I'm going to throw that light on it anyway and see what happens. And since there is a soil substrate, I thought the idea was that it didn't need any special fertilizers? I'll add a little anyway since I already have it, haha. Thanks for the suggestions!


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

That is the idea but it might need more C02 to give it a running start  and yeah you could use multiple lights if you wish however I find it easier to just buy a good bulb and a nice hood its worth the money. What kind of 10 gal is it? Usually I modify my hoods and pull out the wiring now someone showed me how to do it so I could get more bulbs in the same light... but I suggest it only if your crafty and know some basic electronics.


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Oooh! That sounds like a good idea actually! My boyfriends snake cages are like that where they can fit three different bulbs. It's just a regular 10 gallon tank. I one of those glass covers that only actually covers 3/4 of the top of the tank and than I did just have a lamp shining on it but now I have the hood light that sits on the glass cover. I don't know the brand of the light because I got it used and I can't seem to find any indication on the hood itself.

And if you think the CO2 supplement is really necessary, I'll probably invest in it, but I do have Nutrafin Plant Gro plant vitamin stuff.


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

There is a bit of an adjustment period with NPT's. Also, realize that not all plants may work in your set up. Personally, I love the look of foxtail green. For the life of me, I can't get it to grow well in my NPT's. You may need to experiment with different types of plants to see which work best for your particular tank.

I would have to disagree and say that you should not start adding CO2. From the photo I can already see one problem... the airstone. The airstone is creating too much disturbance in the water and surface and is causing a lot of CO2 to escape from the water column. Some water movement is good, but not one that disrupts the surface too much. I would get rid of the airstone for starters.

If the bulb were the issue, I feel like you would have an algae problem. I'm not sure it's the bulb as long as it is a *fluorescent, daylight in the 6500K range*. 

A few other suggestions/questions: do you have shrimp and/or snails to break down decaying matter? If not... try adding some. Trumpet snails are also good for NPT's because they burrow and oxygenate the soil. It's also possible your soil has gone bad. Does the tank have a foul smell? Kind of like rotting eggs? Try poking into the soil.. do gases release that have the rotting smell? If so, add more stem plants asap and poke the soil to allow for oxygen to reach it. (a chopstick or something similar would work to poke into the soil each day for a while to get the soil going again).

So from this point... get rid of all the decaying plant matter. Trim, remove, whatever you need to do. Replant the good parts as necessary. If you need more plants, get more STEM plants. Remember, when starting an NPT it's really best to have 90% of the substrate covered in plants. I would then do a large water change. NPT's don't require as frequent water changes once they are stable. In the beginning, however, you must to water changes to help them stabilize. Add snails if you don't have any, they do their part in the ecosystem. Also get rid of the airstone.


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

Here are a few links as well. Some are specific to smaller tanks, but still good to read as much as you can about them.

Shrimp Tank - I think this is a good, to the point overview. Also gives some plant suggestions.

basic plant deficiency

brief overview

overview with great pictures

I would also check out the "El Natural" forum. If you google it, it should pop up.


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## Nexangelus (Apr 29, 2011)

I run 50 watts on a 10g too, so I'm thinking that isn't completely the problem. While most of those plants (that I can see...) are low-light plants, none if any have the possibility of melting, unless I spy some moss floating around the top.

I'm more inclined to believe the cause of the browning and necrosis is due to a nutrient deficiency. With high light, plants get the "go ahead" to jump into an accelerated state of growth, one that requires fertilizers and root tabs/plant substrates. Could be that your plants are looking for non-existant nutrients in the water column/substrate.

I could recommend a thousand different things to remedy it, but I'm going to narrow it down to two categories for you: Bare minimum to live and all-out crazy growth. The latter, of course, being far more expensive.

Your tank definitely isn't beyond repair and if you wanted to revitalize it I'd recommend you start dosing Flourish "Excel" and "Comprehensive" slightly more than the label's suggested dose. You're creating a lot of growth with that light, and a lot of demand for crucial trace elements. Excel serves as an organic carbon source, essentially "liquid C02" (Although not as effective). Comprehensive is a well, comprehensive supplement containing most of the necessary trace elements for your plants to thrive. In addition to that, try adding some root tabs. These are bury-able little chunks of god knows what containing iron that help plants thrive and develop healthy root systems. Absolutely essential for a tank without a plant specific substrate like Flourish or Eco-complete. I don't know a whole lot about the different types of tabs - Seachem's have always worked marvelously and I've seen no need to experiment with others. 

Now, if you wanted to go all-out, pick up a bottle of Flourish "Potassium" and "Phosphorous" in addition to those previously mentioned. This will create the healthiest leaves and strongest stems, although it's not necessary for plants to thrive. You could also swap out the substrate for a bag of eco-complete or Flourite, probably the latter if you're not planning on carpeting with plants like glossostigma, dwarf hairgrass, or babytears. 

As far as C02 goes, adding it would definitely help, but it would not remedy your current problem. It creates insane growth and the need for constant trimmings, but it will not cure a nutrient deficiency in any way. I can provide some insight on that if you want, but I don't want to get too off topic here, nor do I wish to ramble anymore than I already have.

Just ask if you need anything else!

EDIT: PS - I can't figure out what "NPT" stands for... Acronyms will be the death of me, I swear...


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## thePWNISHER (Jun 18, 2011)

Nexangelus said:


> EDIT: PS - I can't figure out what "NPT" stands for... Acronyms will be the death of me, I swear...


Yah, I was going to write all that other stuff that Nexus did, but.....I didn't feel like it (sarcasm) I think you nailed it on the spot since if it was too much light you would see:

Here are some signs that your plant is getting *too much light*:


Brown scorched patches on leaves
Leaves look faded or washed out
Plant wilts at midday
Leaves become dry looking and fall off
this was from a random aquatic plant website, I don't know how accurate it is or if it really applies to each species but its a start. Since your guys are just losing color but maintaining leaves and overall shape/height they are lacking nutrients. 

@Nexus, I believe NPT is new planted tank. Not sure though.


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## BlakbirdxGyarados (Feb 10, 2011)

If what the PWNISHER says is true about the nutrients, I recommend API Leaf Zone for nutrients. I use it for my planted tanks and I almost never get brown leaves. (Before I used it, I did get some dying plants.)


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## Nexangelus (Apr 29, 2011)

Sounds about right to me. However, don't mistake "Too much light" as a problem. That simply means your plants will go into overdrive and you'll have to accommodate the increased light intake with increased nutrients. Reading over my previous post, I wasn't sure if I had made that clear, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to clarify.

The only time it WOULD be a problem is if you're trying to keep plants that can't handle that kind of light, like java fern, java moss or certain anubias varieties. Would you mind giving us a list of plants in your tank?

New planted tank... That sounds right to me! You'd think knowing about plants and their living conditions would be enough.... but noooo, gotta have fancy acronyms to confuse me and spend hours over-analyzing what it could mean!


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

Again, disagree about dosing with excel or CO2... NPT is a naturally planted tank. The whole idea is no extra CO2 or excel. It takes some experimentation. If you need extra nutrients add a little extra fish food so it can settle and decompose into the soil.

If you feel the plants are melting from too much light, then decrease the amount. I actually give my NPT's a rest period in the middle of the day. I have my lights on a timer... they come on at 8 a.m., go off at 2 p.m., on at 4 p.m., off at 9 p.m. -- Diana Walstad talks about doing this in the middle of the day so the plants can begin photosynthesis, take a break, and then start back up. It keeps them from hitting a peak from the day and not really benefiting after that peak (there's a little more science behind this in the amounts of CO2 and O2 varying. If you're that interested, check out her book).

What changes have you made thus far?


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks for all the suggestions! Reading all of them at once was a little overwhelming and i"m going to have to take sometime and go through them all more closely, haha.
So far, I have repalced my light with that of less wattage... if that's a word, and I added some Nutrafin Plant Gro which as far as I can tell is mostly vitamin b and iron. Right now I am working on trimming plants and I took out the air stone.


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## thePWNISHER (Jun 18, 2011)

plants are finicky little suckers, at least they are forgiving, it can turn all brown over 80% but you can trim that 20% and get a do-over out of it. Well for most of the more basic and common ones, especially stem plants. I don't know about the more difficult ones, but usually you don't get them unless you feel experienced enough.


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## Nexangelus (Apr 29, 2011)

Oh, so its "Naturally planted tank". Have I expressed my dislike of acronyms before?  

Moe, I had a few comments on your post. For the most part, you're right. But you overlooked the fact that she's essentially sitting on 5 watts per gallon, which is an insane amount of light. I won't pretend I know much about Diana's method, but something has to account for the increased nutrient needs generated from such a strong light. I'm quite curious about her take on high WPG setups... Would you mind sharing a link or the name of the book so I could read/order it? I'm also curious about the photosynthesis optimization. 

Chelsea, whatever you decide to do, keep us posted! Hoping you're able to turn things around and have a lush, thriving tank!


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree, a large amount of light. But the whole point of NPT is not to have to use additives, adjustments can be made outside of adding liquid nutrients. The book is "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium." It's a very interesting read (very, very science oriented -- just keep that in mind if that isn't your thing).

Amazon link

I wish I could find my book (in the process of moving), so I could reference the break/photosynthesis optimization, but it is covered in her book. If I can find it, I'll repost. It's a very interesting concept, and I love the challenge of getting it self-sustaining.


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## BlakbirdxGyarados (Feb 10, 2011)

Ah... I wouldn't have suggested additives if I knew what NPT stood for. So yes... I'm in the same boat as you, Nexangelus. xP


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## Nexangelus (Apr 29, 2011)

Definitely sounds like an interesting concept. Hailing from Northern California, I'm all in favor of "going green" and might just give it a try if I can pull it off. I'm going to order that book right now, actually. I've been looking for a good science read lately... 

I've read a lot on planted aquariums, and the ideas and theories seem to jumble in my mind... Is Diana the one who claims you never have to do a water change, or was that someone else? 

Thanks a ton for the link and information. I hope you didn't get the impression I was trying to be argumentative. I was just trying to her that her current light may cause challenges in her NPT aspirations and definitely was not trying to start a forum debate.


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## Nexangelus (Apr 29, 2011)

BlakbirdxGyarados said:


> Ah... I wouldn't have suggested additives if I knew what NPT stood for. So yes... I'm in the same boat as you, Nexangelus. xP


I don't know how longer this boat will be afloat. I think all those additives and chemicals may have taken a toll on the infrastructure...


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

My idea was to try to jump start the tank and then wean it back off everything once the plants get a holding. That is how I do my NPT, just because sometimes plants need that kick in the pants. Getting plants established is usually the hardest part and some loss is expected. I does my takes for about a month or more then slowly wean them off by doing 1/2 doses and then extending the time in between etc. Also make sure that if you are using less watts that you do have it in the correct spectrum. But sense it looks like plants are still holding onto new growth ( at least it looks like new growth) I assume they arent getting enough nutrients to hold onto older leaves.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Way too much watts over a NPT especially a 10gal tank...get a 20w 6500k daylight bulb in the lighting dept at Wal Mart or home depot....

What kind of soil did you use, how deep-I see you used gravel to cap the soil-how deep is that.....

List your plant species and numbers of each, which species died or browning....and how you planted them....

What is your photoperoid

What is the stocking and water changes...how may days has it been running, water temp, filter and water movement....additives used...


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## tf1265 (Jul 26, 2011)

Some plants require more light than others. One picture you post of the brown dead plants looks to be a dead amazon sword - they require a LOT of light. If they are buried in the back under floating plants they may not be getting enough light. But, like everyone else has said, fertilizer!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Newly set up natural planted soil based tanks should have plenty of ferts for the plants

Natural planted tanks...soil based are different than regular substrate or even aquatic plant specific substrate...soil is nutrient rich for usually 3-5 years depending on the type of soil and dept....they shouldn't need any extra ferts.....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> Way too much watts over a NPT especially a 10gal tank...get a 20w 6500k daylight bulb in the lighting dept at Wal Mart or home depot....
> 
> What kind of soil did you use, how deep-I see you used gravel to cap the soil-how deep is that.....
> 
> ...


Lots of questions, okay here we go.
I now have a 15 watt flora-gro on the tank. I used organic potting soil and it's about an inch deep. I the gravel is probably half an inch or less. I have water wisteria, I think I started with 4 bunches of it, I don't recall how many stems, but much of that has browned and died off. My sword also has stems that are browning and dying off but the whole plant is not dead. I have a few bunches of dwarf sags that aren't doing to bad. Around the roots there is a lot of browning but there are a lot of leaves that seem fine. I had just one bunch rotala roundifolia that was pretty much dead when it arrived. I tried anchoring it with gravel and then let some of it just float to see what would become of it, but it all just died. The hygrophilia plants, maybe 5 of them, they are doing just fine. The only plant that hasn't seemed to be bothered. Let's see, I also have a few stems of ludwigia...? that have leaves melting off but the stem itself is hanging on. 

I planted most-all of these plants but laying the roots over the soil then anchoring with the gravel substrate. I was careful to let the top of the root (i forget the name) be above the substrate for the plants that had the instructions too. 

There is a single betta in the tank now. I want to put a few platy in the tank too, but I'm hesitant. I will have trumpet snails once I figure out where to get them, but I have been poking the soil every few days. Water changes are once a week and are small for right now because the point of the NPT was to lessen the water changes that I would have to do. Water temp is 79 degrees and I did have an airstone in with limited pressure, but I was informed to take it out, so I did, haha. The only additive was the iron that I just put in yesterday and then typical water conditioner for the tap water. Oh and, I have the timer to be on for 10 hours.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

What is the kelvin on that bulb.....I missed the...how long has the tank been running...lol...I know I ask a lot of question.....only way to find answers...lol.....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

I doesn't say on the bulb here but a google search tells me.... that it is 2800 K so it doesn't seem high enough at all. And I looked at Walmart last night for something closer and I can not find anything for the life of me! The way it is described, it seems that the right light is common, but I can't seem to find anything less than 50 watts! The tank has been running for ohhh probably just about a month now. 
And I don't mind the questions, obviously I want the help! It just takes me a minute to break them down and not be overwhelmed, haha


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Is this a regular 2 pin florescent bulb for your hood....or do you have a light strip that goes over the tank...seems like I read that you didn't or something like that...if so, it will make it harder....the next step would to be-move the light further away.......50w is just too much and 2800k is the wrong color temp that won't support plant growth.....look for "Daylight" bulb...

If it has only been running a month-and with the plant problems...I would make a couple of weekly 50% water only and remove any dead plant matter....

Good that you are poking the substrate and good on the soil/gravel level...we just need the proper light and get this NPT stable so you can start enjoying it more.....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

I had the 50watt farther away from the tank, I'd say about a foot distance between the lamp head and the top of the tank, but the flora-glo is in a hood over the tank. I have found the correct bulb on the internet... now just finding it in the store, haha. I will do a 50% today, I've already taken out most of the dead plants. I'll try to find the light again later today. Thanks for the advice I really appreciate it! I really wanted to get all my tanks transfered to NPTs once I got the hang of them, but I'm off to a rough start with just this one tank, haha.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I use/buy the GE brand-Daylight-20w-6500k bulb for my 2pin florescent light strips I use over my 10gal tanks...I get them in the lighting department at Walmart for less than $6.00 each...you can find them at home depot, lowes etc....too

Be sure the partition between the light strip and hood is really clean or remove it all together......I don't have hoods on my NPT-only the light strip-I cut yard sticks to fit on the inside lip of the tank so the light strip will sit on it-I use 2 light strips over most of my tanks too but don't always turn both light on...this way it is pretty much covered and the slats I make out of yard sticks are strong enough to hold a fat cat....lol....one of the places my cats like to sleep on top of the lights for heat.....lol.....

Once you get your lighting fixed and get some age on the tank...they will be nearly self care......

When you clean up the plants-before you toss them make sure the root is dead...sometimes the root will still be alive and the leaf just melted...swords, crypt, val, sags are all bad about this.....so don't give up too soon on them....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

UPDATE: 

The plants are looking better, however the tank is smelly  The water is looking kind of cloudy too. I did a partial only water change yesterday and there isn't much difference today. I just started using the 20 watt 6500k bulb so maybe the tank hasn't adjusted to it yet? Any suggestions?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Smelly...rotten egg smelly...or other.......do you have trumpet snails or are you poking the substrate...


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

I can't find trumpet snails, so I've been poling the substrate. I'm not sure if I would call it like rotten eggs, but it's definitely really dirty fish water smelly.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

A lot of dead/dying plant material in the tank....it shouldn't have a smell or a bad smell ever......how deep is the dirt to sand/gravel and how often have you been water changing...etc.....remind me about the age, lights, tank size and all of that so I don't have to go back and find it....plants actively growing and you have trimmed and transplanted etc....can you post a pic....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

The dirt is 1 inch and the gravel is 1/2. I have been doing weekly waterchanges but only for the past couple weeks when things started not looking so good. It's over a month running now, was using a 15 watt FloraGlo bulb, now using the 20watt 6500k daylight bulb. It's 10 gallons. I haven't trimmed anything except for dead plant matter and have not transplanted anything either. I'm thinking of scraping this tank and trying again with a smaller one but if this tank is still salvagable, let me know. 
Thanks! I'll try to post a picture later.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Sounds good-I think adding the proper kelvin is going to help some....what makes the NPT work is the active plant growth of enough of the right species of plants....this is really important....when you trim the plants-re-plant them in the tank....it need to be crammed full of rooted plants and once it gets going-you can start to remove some of them....75-80% of the floor needs plants...actively growing plants....you should need to trim on a weekly basis...if not, they are not growing well enough-the new light should help this....don't give up yet.......get it on 12h/day photoperiod-remove dead plant matter, make 25-50% water only changes if you have fish in it, if you don't have any fish-make every other week water changes-but it really need fish or some type of live stock-common snail work great for them-since they will eat the dead/dying plant matter and feed the tank, keep poking the soil every day or so-give it an extra pinch of fish food flakes once a week-make sure the filter isn't degasing the CO2 with too much water movement at the top-a slight ripple is okay but not popping bubbles...

Look forward to a current pic of the tank....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Here are some pictures. That close up one is of some odd white spots that appeared today on the inside of the tank. 

There are a few common snails in the tank, but not a whole lot and they are just tiny now. 

I'll stick with it, I'm going to get some more wisteria as well because most of it died off.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

If one type of plant died-don't replace it with the same type...it best to try a different species....naja grass is a good one to start in a NPT

The pics didn't show up for me...but it may be my computer....having a lot of problems with it the past few days.....


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

I'll try and get some naja grass I have been looking for some good deals but have been unsuccessful. How would cabomba do? There's usually some at my lfs but I had trouble with it in the past in a different tank


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

Your tank looks so much better than the first images! Don't give up, I think you'll start seeing some improvements. More plants... trust me, the plants do wonders. It's so worth all the frustration and test-trialing when you finally look at your tank one day and realize everything is working as it should.

Give the cabomba a try. Just go pick up 3 or 4 different kinds of plants. Put them all in there, and see what does best. (Trust me you have room for a lot more plants).


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## aurasoulful (Aug 19, 2011)

Plants are looking much greener. Keep up the good work! I got my trumpet snails at: http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscentral.com/7-Malaysian-Trumpet-Snails-Algae-control-Live-mts07.htm since my petsmart REFUSED to give or even sell me any of their stash... :/


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Those butts (petco that is) 
Thanks I forgot that they had snails and such! I'll probably order those.


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscentral.com/20-Gallon-Low-Light-Plant-Package-lowlipack.htm

Would this be beneficial to buy? Would they work well?


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## Princess Penny (Aug 26, 2011)

That looks like a good package - all easy plants


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Not the greatest plants to start up a NPT and $30. seems kinda pricey to me...have you checked out Sweetaquatics site....they have awesome plants for a better price...


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

No I never heard of that site I'll check it out now.


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## aurasoulful (Aug 19, 2011)

Everything sells so fast at SA though


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## aurasoulful (Aug 19, 2011)

*XD*



aurasoulful said:


> Everything sells so fast at SA though


I broke down and bought a ton of plants for my tanks from Sweetaquatics. The prices are good  I couldn't help it... lol


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Haha, I just ordered a bunch to, you're right, those prices are awesome!


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## aurasoulful (Aug 19, 2011)

How is your tank doing chelseaK?


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

It's looking better for sure but I'm waiting on my plants shipment to come in. It should have been here bynow but hopefully tomorrow it will be here. Then I will be able to have more of the floor planted again. But the plants that are still alive are thriving and I've been trimming and planting as they get too tall. Hopefully I can get an updated picture up when my new plants come in.


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## aurasoulful (Aug 19, 2011)

Yay! glad to hear that! I'm waiting on my shipments too.. Still processing


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