# Veiltail Lovers may find this interesting



## MoonShadow

As most of you know in the IBC shows held in the USA there are no specific classes for veiltails. But in other countries there are. I stumbled upon an international forum and saw the results for the Holland Betta Show held this past August. They hold a class for veiltail males and one for veiltail females. 

I thought you guys might like to see the winning veiltails, especially since the veiltail male also won BEST OF SHOW. Just proves VTs can be just as pretty as all the other tail types!

The winning VT female









and the winning VT and BOS male


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## ChoclateBetta

I think we should come up with a name of discrimination of tail type Tailism. I keep a nice delta tail my Petco does not stock good VTs. I keep a female VT I have her for behaver and intelligence. I bought her to eat guppy fry. She is not eating them. I love her it is hard to find a nice Betta in a pet store even harder to find one of a specefic rype.


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## Talen

Those are two lovely Veiltails. Looks like Spot has good form


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## VanBoy

Veiltails are my favorite. These two are perfect examples of a pure veiltail. It's a shame that they're not allowed to enter the shows in the USA.


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## toad

Those are amazing animals. Beautiful.


Why doesn't anyone show VT's in the US?


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## homegrown terror

about bloody time, if you ask me.


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## laynisample

If only Mal would stop biting his tail he'd have extremely decent form.


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## kfryman

Wow, I have a female that looks exactly like that one.


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## Alcemistnv

Buddha kinda has that shape, but since the picture, his tail has grown a bit more, maybe another half inch...


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## djembekah

Swish's form is pretty similar to that boy too. None of my girls are much like that girl though


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## Xiuhcoati

That male is a lovely VT example. I am rather partial to VTs though


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## teeneythebetta

Awww I love this! VTs are my favorite


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## Sena Hansler

Since in the USA veil tails are very much over bred, and are massive in numbers and don't have the "perfect" forms of other tail types they aren't shown. They are MUTTS to the shows. There will always be heated debates (or other words, arguments) about veiltails, but really there just needs to be a SMALL group who show bettas in their community to have any tail type accepted. Just a thought  basically... Do it yourself. They won't lol


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## Xiuhcoati

Hm...Sena you might be on to something. If VT lovers really want to do their best by the VT type, making local clubs and small scale shows might be the way to go. The VT could still be improved on, colors formed, and fins shaped just like the other fin types.

You're brilliant!


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## tpocicat

Getting veiltails recognised by IBC can be done. You just have to get enough breeders to agree and begin showing really good ones in the other types class.


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## MoonShadow

Any other breeders wanna start working on Veiltails with me??


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## Talen

I would love to help out Moon but I just have my little guy from wallyworld and not much money to put into getting any new fishies.


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## purplemuffin

So what exactly would you say would be desirable or undesirable traits in a veiltail? If you want them in the IBC, what would be the standard?


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## Tikibirds

I don't know anything when it comes to form, but I do not find that female appealing at all (in other words I find her ugly). I think its her pointy tail as I have one that looks almost identical color wise but with a more rounded tail. 

Anyways, I love VT's alot more then the more popular HMPK's. If I was gonna breed for color, I would work on making them in other shades as almost all I see are blue or red in color.

I do have a few VT males and females. I have a male in with my 5 girls (he was mislabled as a female but was actually a very young male). Once he grew up, I was kinda hoping he would spawn with one of the girls but he seems to not be too into females.


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## purplemuffin

That's funny, I actually enjoy the pointed tailed vts more than the round ones! I guess that's why it's tough when it comes to standards on them heh


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## laynisample

MoonShadow said:


> Any other breeders wanna start working on Veiltails with me??


I wish! I've never bred, but my guy would be a good breeding fish. I've been told by three or four people on this forum to breed him so far. If you're interested in him I could send you a picture.


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## Xiuhcoati

I wouldn't mind working veil tails, but we'd need to figure out what an ideal veil would look like and then aim for it. Obviously we'd still want a torpedo body, but what does a beautiful veil tail look like? Is it full and thick? Taper to a point? Even in length with the other fins?

Perhaps we should make a separate thread for deciding what to breed for, so as not to hijack this thread.


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## teeneythebetta

That one with a pointed tail is otherwise known as a "spade tail".
They're pretty much the same as VTs but apparently at one point the spades were very popular.

I found a girl with a spade tail at petsmart once but she died because she was sick when I got her.


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## Little Leaf

<3 veiltails...

STOP "VEILTAILISM!" 

wait, that's not even a word... oh well, still gonna try to stop "veiltailism"


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## Xiuhcoati

I have a couple of spade tails. I think they're quite pretty  really though, what betta isn't?


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## Xiuhcoati

Found a veiltail "standard" if you will, below alfmoon plakat on this page:

http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-Bettas4allStandard.htm


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## Sena Hansler

I find... Since I have owned and rescued veils, the "mirror" effect is handy. I bred a crowntail to my veil, Meagan, and since she had a very good dorsal and caudal (even, without damage or imperfections) the baby, a female, looks like her. I wish I had a male or that she had a shorter anal fin, because the fin is too long IMO... BUT raising a standard, instead of willy nilly breeding and aiming for a single form would be best. I have had veils with weird squared, wonky, or slanted fins... Then some with spade, rounded, and very strong fin lines. I would breed for "mirror effect" possibly shorter anal fins and not so delicate fins. Maine had wonderful, full fins. Spartan held his fine well. Meagan had decent semmetry. Fiona had a spade tail. Etc

Adding: but be reminded that you would have to breed solely for perfection, cull hard and make zero profit. Veils are too common to breed as is, so it would be a money-munching trial :lol:


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## ThePearlFish

I love VTs. When I set up my future tank I am gonna look for a Banana Yellow colored one, like my Speedbump who passed away.


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## Xiuhcoati

Sena Hansler said:


> Adding: but be reminded that you would have to breed solely for perfection, cull hard and make zero profit. Veils are too common to breed as is, so it would be a money-munching trial :lol:


You mean...bettas can turn a profit?? 

In all seriousness, I've got nothing to lose. Got dozens of tanks from 10 to 55 gal plus two fish rooms plus god knows how many 1 gallons.

What do you think would be ideal sena?


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## LittleFish2012

I find Veil tails to be very intelligent and equally amazing.
Raoul was a cornflower blue Veil tail, and he was HUGE. But he didn't have the same fin shape as the winner.
It really is discrimination if they can't enter shows in the US.


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## MoonShadow

I personally think the IBC should at least open up a VT class for new breeders since veils are so easy to breed. Would give new breeders good experience, IMO. Different chapters who host shows **I Believe** could add a veiltail class if they wanted to, but I'm not positive since the IBC doesn't have an official show standard for them.


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## teeneythebetta

Unfortunately the world is full of discrimination.
I hope that will change.

Like petsmart doesn't allow pit bulls to attend their training classes.

I wish those standing up for VTs good luck!! I'd love to see them in shows.


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## purplemuffin

Huh, I've never heard that. Our petsmart has always allowed pitbulls and pit mixes into the training classes. They only don't accept dogs with a history of biting or aggression(especially at a young age) but my petsmart has been known for breaking the rules of most petsmarts I guess. 

I think the biggest issue was the lack of agreement on what a proper veiltail standard should be. In general the standard always has to do with proportions and symmetry, something harder to do on veils. Wider tails? More like a spade? A certain angle? there was that nice 3d model of a possible standard to reach for. I think it would be fun to see.


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## teeneythebetta

purplemuffin said:


> Huh, I've never heard that. Our petsmart has always allowed pitbulls and pit mixes into the training classes. They only don't accept dogs with a history of biting or aggression(especially at a young age) but my petsmart has been known for breaking the rules of most petsmarts I guess.
> 
> I think the biggest issue was the lack of agreement on what a proper veiltail standard should be. In general the standard always has to do with proportions and symmetry, something harder to do on veils. Wider tails? More like a spade? A certain angle? there was that nice 3d model of a possible standard to reach for. I think it would be fun to see.


Oh my bad it's the day camp http://www.ilovedogs.com/2012/02/bully-breeds-banned-from-petsmarts-doggie-day-camp/


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## Xiuhcoati

Well, who all is seriously interested in the project? Keeping in mind it could take years to reach the end result, cost a lot of money in between, and will most likely not get you in the history books for it...

I'm interested. I don't want to selectively breed without knowing what to breed for though. I'd also like to be able to trade bettas with similarly minded people at some point.


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## purplemuffin

I'm interested in participating a few years down the road. Maybe as a side project.


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## Basement Bettas

VanBoy said:


> Veiltails are my favorite. These two are perfect examples of a pure veiltail. It's a shame that they're not allowed to enter the shows in the USA.


They can enter.. but they fall way short of the standard. Most are multi colored and they lack the balance we want in a show fish. Time and again the judging board has been open to VT standards. There has got to be a bar that can be set to measure against an no one is interested in going there. There has to be balance and symmetry even in a VT. Until those standards are developed they will never beat even a poor HM.


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## Basement Bettas

MoonShadow said:


> I personally think the IBC should at least open up a VT class for new breeders since veils are so easy to breed. Would give new breeders good experience, IMO. Different chapters who host shows **I Believe** could add a veiltail class if they wanted to, but I'm not positive since the IBC doesn't have an official show standard for them.


THe New Breeder class is to get breeders ready for the open classes. They should be on a second or third generation by then so they get plenty of experience. Veils are no easier to breed then anything else except you can go down the street and buy one. With the work it takes to bring a spawn to size it does not make sense for those interested in showing to start with VT's. and for a show to provide ribbons. And how would it be judged? The pretty fish? Big fish? You have to have a standard to measure any entrant by and there just is not one for veils.


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## Sena Hansler

"bettas can make a profit??!!" yes... And no. I learned to listen, ask, watch and study. I listened to the people in my area, listened to how and when to ship (if I were to), I asked for what people wanted and did not want, watched how info was given out by others, and studied tail types more. I found... People enjoy LEARNING but never CRITICISM. Saying "your a bad fish owner" VS "Bettas are actually tropical, and would live longer, healthier, with a heater set to 78-80. If a heater cannot be provided, try to keep the temperature from dropping below 76." I'd rather be informed them hollered at  also I found veils 1/5 liked, dumbos 1/5 knew about, 3/5 wanted crowns and 4/5 wanted half moons. I started to get all my stuff years ago so I had only an 8.00 fee for previous spawns and the most my next spawns were goin to cost was the cost of new breeders.

On that note ask around your area, especially if deciding to deal with veils. Ask them WHAT they want to see in a "perfect" veil. Pointy caudal? Long? Narrow? Wide? Also integrate dominant colors and patterns like (here people love them) Dalmatian and butterfly  

Yes, I have thought this through :lol: I would like to get a line of veiltail going, but I would need to do what I stated above. Plus I no longer have extra tanks, just three... One holding an irridescent blue female from my last spawn (CT/VT resulting in a Shag Veil as I call it lol) and a multi colored female crown (tank divided) and the other holds a pet veil who is just an immitation Cambodian. :/ this last month was not kind to me and my "breeding colony" and plans.

Edit: for me a veiltail would had a decent caudal spread, that is Ben on both sides, meeting together at an even point, the anal would not be super long, and the dorsal would be wider without curled spikes.  but, that's my idea lol.


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## Perry the platypus

Mine is really blurry.


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## Perry the platypus

Can someone teach me how to post a picture of my fish?


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## Sena Hansler

Click "go advanced" and there should be an "attachment" button to click. Choose photo, add it


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## Maddybelle

I'm currently working on writing a standard for veiltails, actually! Maybe we could submit it to the IBC and see what they think? I'd love to start working on veiltails. I'm going to look at the veiltail females around here: maybe if I breed a nice veiltail female to my orange halfmoon, in amongst all the pretty deltas there will be some equally pretty veiltails that will come closer to the new standard than the ones that usually show up at the pet store. I saw a blue veil at Petsmart a few weeks ago that looked a lot like the winning male: Except there wasn't a speck of red wash on him and he had a partial mask! So pretty.


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## rubinthebetta

VanBoy said:


> Veiltails are my favorite. These two are perfect examples of a pure veiltail. It's a shame that they're not allowed to enter the shows in the USA.


Excatly. BTW, do you mean veiltails in general or the fish that were in the pictures?:-? Sorry if the answer is right in front of my face


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## VanBoy

rubinthebetta said:


> Excatly. BTW, do you mean veiltails in general or the fish that were in the pictures?:-? Sorry if the answer is right in front of my face


Haha. The fish that were in the pictures. The female is a perfect example because she doesn't look like a plakat. Betta breeders often get confuse between the two. And the male's tail doesn't come to a point. It's wide and evenly spread. Well, at least that's what I would call a perfect veiltail. You usually don't see veiltails like these at the store.


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