# Flints Blind Bettas {The Mystery Continues}



## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I was doing some work on my laptop yesterday afternoon and I saw one of my desktop bettas having a fit out of the corner of my eye. I saw blood in the water and upon further examination, I came to discover Pascal had no eyes. His vase (he's agoraphobic) is smooth glass and he doesn't even have substrate. His eyes were nowhere to be found. 

This morning, I woke up, walked the dogs and checked on Pascal as well as my other desktop bettas. Grizzly is now also missing his eyes and was found on my desk. He isn't a jumper. My goldfish and GBR tank are unscathed, however. My last desktop betta, Octavian, is in a covered container (a 1/2 gallon alcohol bottle, actually) and Pongo is in a 2.5 with the glass cover on. It's strange that my two open-top bettas have no eyes now. I am concerned for my goldfish as they don't have a top on their tank but my GBR tank has a hood as it is planted so I'm not super worried about them.

I'm not sure why my bettas are turning up eye-less all of a sudden. Our daughter is 5 months old, we only have rabbits and fish in the house and nobody visits. It's all very strange! If you have some input on what may be happening, please, post! I'm at a loss and worried about my babies.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I know I already talked about infections but...idk what your insect situation is down there and if anything would possible drop in, say a spider and do this sort of damage? Again, just spit-balling here but it's the only thing I can really think of other than they did this to themselves on something like a plastic plant or piece of decor/driftwood. Again, I don't know what they have in their tanks so it's hard to say. It's possible that if ammonia did build up which it can if you had some heavy rainfall or in the spring when everything melts; lots of garbage and nasty stuff end up in the water ways and if you don't have municipal water to combat it with extra Chlorine, you could have extra ammonia in your water which could irritate them and the eyes are soft enough that they could really do some damage if they wanted to.

However, that said, I've never known a healthy animal to self-inflect damage, it's still possible but not likely in my head at least. :-/


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

We have a lot of house and jumping spiders and a decent handful of recluse, banana and golden orb weavers. Wood roaches are crazy here.... 3"+ could they do something? Maybe mice? Or rats? We live in an old house and a 15 minute walk from sugar cane fields which is heaven for small animals but cane season is coming to an end and they have to go somewhere. 

Pascals vase was an identical base to what I had Spoon and Grim in. Grizzly does have gravel and decor/fake plants in his glass vase but Pascal had nothing. I just want to know what this is because Pongo is going to be three this November and I'm not sure he would pull through this trauma. 

What would cause the sockets to bleed and then not bleed repetitively? It seems like they stop and I go back later to find bloody sockets again. How would a betta gauge it's own eyes out without anything to use?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I've personally never heard of it but does that mean it can't happen? Certainly not. I'm definitely not ruling out the insect possibility though it's kind of far down on my list.

From my small amount of research this generally comes from two possibilities though; bacterial infection and/or recent trauma.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

If it were me (and I'm still a newb, so take it with a grain of salt), I would probably get a test kit and test the water, just to see whats in it. Id test the water in their vases and the water coming from the tap. Id probably go ahead and pick up some of that jungle fungus clear (because I had good results with a stubborn finrot in the past) and some of those other bacteria infection meds that the gurus here suggest sometimes, and have it on hand, but i'd definitely test the water first.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I have an API Master Liquid Test Kit and levels are 0 across the board.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

Oh, and some of that stuff that neutralizes ammonia in the water, in case there is something hinky going on with the water coming from your tap. I reread your original thread, and i find it suspicious that this happened right after you said you had done a water change.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

Crap. I crossposted with you. I dont know then. :/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm still going with bacterial since it happened to two fish, if it's hemorrhaging that could account for the blood stopping and starting again. If you can get any sort of antibiotic, I would start that right after the salt bath, that way it's a preventative measure in case but if there is something there, it should attack it all the same. 

KanaPlex will most likely be your best bet but if you can't then try getting either Triple Sulfa, Maracyn II, Funra-2 or Tetracycline.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I can't get anything until I sell some snails, unfortunately. I have melafix? I'm not sure if that'll help or not though.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No that won't really help. Just keep his water very clean with daily water changes, preferably keep him in some darkened area so he doesn't stress (yes, they can still sense light) and do the salt bath for now.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I saw your PM and checked your thread... But I had to run and I was stumped by it anyways. 

Melafix might actually help in this situation because it will act as an antiseptic, which is good... Typically it's a fairly useless medication but at a proper dosage it won't hurt... That being said it's not going to stop any infection that he may have. Your choice whether you want to use it. 

Lil is also giving good advice, clean water and salt is a good way to go until you can get proper meds. 

My thought is that it's an infection that attacks the eyes... I just feel like it's weird that something physical would have caused BOTH to fall out at the same time.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks for chiming in Matt! I always forget that it's an antiseptic so that could work for now 

Oh and on the other thread we were just discussing VOC's in the air; another possibility. I know they can effect the breathing of our fish since they take straight from the air we breathe but I'm not sure about them effecting the eyes only unless something was literally sprayed right above the tanks; perhaps unknowingly by your husband or you? Not blaming, just trying to lay out all the possibilities here.

Though, I only briefly viewed the videos, do they seem to be breathing abnormally heavy? Any other signs of illness besides their eyes? Anything you can think of that happened in the last week or so that isn't normal? Any perfumes, insecticides that might have worked their way inside? Any febreeze, bathroom sprays, recently painted walls or paint in general; wall paint, outdoor paint, or regular artist paints could all have an effect though I'm not entirely sure to this degree.


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## autojoy (Jun 16, 2014)

Dear Flint -- I'm not experienced at all, so I can't offer anything but support & hope that you can get to the bottom of this! It must be so distressing!! Best wishes to you & your fish.....!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

They are breathing normal just abnormally still likely because of the new impatient most likely. They didn't act strange at all this week. 

I was discussing this with another member - can these bettas potentially be housed together? They can't see so I was curious. 

I'm having viral issues with the laptop and backing up all of our pics is taking priority. I'll post from there a nicer, lengthier post later today.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Fish release various pheremones into the water, so they would know the other fish was there and would find their way towards each other eventually without a barrier. For some fish even a barrier isn't enough to hold them back. 

It may be parasitic.. There are species of flukes and other parasites that live on the skin... Eyes are an easy target and may be eaten... If it is parasitic something like kanaplex would clear it out as well... You'd be surprised at the means these parasites can get into water, sometimes they are able to survive filtration in egg form and our aquaria are a suitable environment..

Mycobacterium is another possibility.. Also I'm sure you're well aware but be extra careful with your daughter around the fish right now.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

+1 to Oly. There are so many strains of Myco too and considering both Grim and Spoon died it does make me suspicious. It's generally a quick wasting disease though sometimes can happen clear out of the blue and you won't ever know what hit them unless you did a Necropsy on the dead fish.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

IF they die... PM me and I'll walk you through a necropsy. Gross, but you'll definitely want to do it... Once mycobacterium is a serious possibility it becomes a legitimate safety issue.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

^ +1111


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

What is myco? Fish TB?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

TB is one strain of Mycobacterium but there are many different strains and I don't believe all have been identified. Graphite Disease is another strain of Myco as well.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I think the problem with Myco is that it evolves very rapidly... this is the same reason human tuberculosis is such a threatening disease.... Which is why it's hard to ID some.. Myco is present in many fish tanks, rarely it seems to change and become a violent strain... if not introduced...


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I just finished putting some feeder goldies in their vases and cleverly placing mousetraps and sticky traps around. I'm hoping for something environmental and not disease-related. Pongo aside I have horrible luck with bettas.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

I hate even suggesting this, but it might help. Being a shark fundi, i have lots of books about sharks. I once read about a parasite that attacks eyes specifically because its where the parasites get their nutrients. The parasite will literally eat the eyes. Maybe you had something similar in your tanks from the tap water, just freshwater parasites that eats away the eyes. I dont know if thats even possible though. But if its only the fish that had no covers on top of the vases, then the causes may very well be environmental.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Eye flukes are pretty common in saltwater and pond fish.. from what I read the flukes are transmitted between fish and birds so I don't see it likely that they'd get into the house..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pandanke (Jun 16, 2014)

Oh my goodness, what a nightmare. I hope you figure it out, and that your boys are able to survive. Hopefully no one else in your home has similar issues.

It would be interesting, if nothing else, to see how the bettas adapt to being blind. 

I have never heard of this happening, we keep outdoor goldies and koi year round, and open tops on most of our tanks.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

We got dead cane rats and a couple blind goldies in my uncovered fancy goldfish tank so they are the culprit. I don't understand why the fish themselves weren't eaten and why they went after them instead of our bags of grain, cereal and such. Our landlord is having someone come out. I'm so glad this is environmental and not myco or something much more serious!

Again, thank you everyone for your input! Now we are just going to do what we can to get them feeling better. <3


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I should have clarified the dead rats were in the traps and not the tank, lol.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

holy crap! are you saying the rats ate the fish eyes?


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## Pandanke (Jun 16, 2014)

That is weird they only went for the eyes, and how awful and traumatising it must have been for the fish. At least you know it's not myco, so you can just let them heal and live out their fishy lives now.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Well, there are at least a couple of forum members that have blind fish, at least you can get some care tips...but how awful for you and for the fish! :-( The mystery is solved, but the answer is disturbing.

That isn't normal rat behavior...they are known to catch and eat fish, but selectively eating body parts isn't their thing. I hope they aren't diseased. :|


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm still not ruling out the possibility of myco or other disease since that's really not normal for rodents :-/ nice that you caught them but still doesn't mean much since they could have just been getting a drink or something.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

It's strange that I surrounded my betta tanks with traps and the goldies turned up with missing, eyes, however, lil. I have owned rats and they do tend to eat specific parts of peas and such but I never gave them animal protien so idk.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Not just me that doesn't fully believe it lol. I'm just saying that Myco should not be ruled out completely is all.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I agree. I we're still gonna be super careful around them.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

At what point can myco be ruled out?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If you can prove the rats are doing what we think they're doing then yes, you can rule out Myco.


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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

Is a webcam still out of the cards? That would solve a lot.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm setting up my old camera as we speak but I don't have the cord to hook it to the computer so technically it's not a webcam


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Anything will do to record while you're away to see the rats. You can just look through it later to see if it is the rats and then you can do something about it.


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## Fawnleaf (Aug 31, 2010)

Hi! I'm so sorry about your fish! I won't be much help, but I really hope you figure out what's going on! I've never heard of rats doing that, but you never know! Are are other parts of the fish hurt, or just the eyes? I would have that that even if a rat were only going for the eyes, they would have hurt other parts of the fish too. Do you have pictures? (Unless they are too graphic to post :/ )


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I just finished looking through everything yesterday and it was the rats. They maimed my goldies and my decoy feeder goldies but the bettas only have missing eyes. It's definitely strange.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

Wow. I can't even. I seriously had no idea that rats would do that to fish. Mind blown.

Honestly, it's like, more disturbing than anything I could have imagined. I thought it was some weird strain of some disease. Even that seems more benign that the truth. (shudder.)

I had thought about getting a pet rat at some point, now I'll be sure to take precautions with my fish if we ever do.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

Rats are incredibly intelligent. I have had pet rats and fish at the same time and had no issues. My rats were even free-range during the day but it took A LOT of training and just the right personalities to do so. I do not suggest that at all. When you get rats, just keep in mind they have to be in at least pairs and nothing smaller than a Petco Rat Manor for two. You could squeeze three females in there but the max on that cage is two. ;-)


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## Jonthefish (Jun 16, 2014)

This is nuts !! Just read the whole thread . How are the little guys doing ? Are they adapting well ?


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I lost my fancies and I culled my decoy goldies straightaway. The bettas are well, just extremely still. I'm considering culling just because they really don't seem to be adapting well.


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## Jonthefish (Jun 16, 2014)

Flint said:


> I lost my fancies and I culled my decoy goldies straightaway. The bettas are well, just extremely still. I'm considering culling just because they really don't seem to be adapting well.


So sorry to hear that 
I would second that , they don't need anymore stress .

Did you cull with clove oil ?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

That is so sad, and such a shame. Your poor fish babies. :-( I hope your landlord gets on getting rid of those rats.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I still haven't made the decision, I'm hesitant because they are my babies. I'm thinking about adopting them out but I would have to do it with someone willing to cull and there aren't a lot of those around here unless something is REALLY wrong and this is just bad adaptation to a disability. If I cull it will be the ice water (not freezer!!) method.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

Oh man, I'm so sorry. I was hoping they would adapt. I've seen other animals adapt so well that you barely knew they were blind, but mainly they were land animals, and had other senses that they relied more heavily on than sight anyway.

Yeah, rats are super intelligent. My kids saw one at a pet store, and he knew that the door was in the back of the cage. He came up to us and pawed at the front of glass a bit at us, then he went and set right beside the door at the back of the cage and pawed at it a bit, because he was hoping one of us would come around back there and let him get out. they can be really sweet.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

:shock: I wouldn't have been able to walk away from that rat.


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## 2boys2fish (Jun 13, 2014)

We rent, and I'm not allowed to have pets in my house.










I'm pushing it by having two 10 gallon fish tanks. But we'll be moving soon, and I will have all the things.


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## Jonthefish (Jun 16, 2014)

2boys2fish said:


> We rent, and I'm not allowed to have pets in my house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same !!!!! And thanks for posting that gif I nearly sprayed pop out of my nose xD


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Jonthefish said:


> Same !!!!! And thanks for posting that gif I nearly sprayed pop out of my nose xD


Scared the heck out of me until I scrolled all the way to bottom of gif. lol


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Flint said:


> We got dead cane rats and a couple blind goldies in my uncovered fancy goldfish tank so they are the culprit. I don't understand why the fish themselves weren't eaten and why they went after them instead of our bags of grain, cereal and such. Our landlord is having someone come out. I'm so glad this is environmental and not myco or something much more serious!
> 
> Again, thank you everyone for your input! Now we are just going to do what we can to get them feeling better. <3


 
I was leaning towards a critter of some sort. Rats! I hate them ( I don't mind the domesticated kind!) with a passion. As bad as pigeions, seagulls and squirrels. I live In the city and we have them all over. The amount of disease they carry is unbelievable.
Give me a nice betta anyday!


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

We sneak in animals lol. But that isn't always possible.


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## huckleberry77 (May 31, 2014)

I see that you have figured this sad mystery out. As I was reading through, I wondered if the rats introduced a nasty bacteria to the tank that infected the eyes... I also remember a woman getting a brain eating amoeba from using a neti pot (at least on infected person was from LA and using local water) 
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tap-wat...ng-amoeba-deaths-in-2011-investigation-finds/
Made me wonder if such an amoeba could harm fish.

Regardless of the cause, I am very sorry for what happened to your fish.


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