# New HM Female from Petsmart



## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

Got this little girl from petsmart she was just labeled female betta, which I'm guessing is just plain veiltail females with her fins were all clenched together,(I got her for 99 cents) when I brought her home and put her in her new 2.5 gallon tank her fins spread right up. She looks like a blue and red HM but I can't really get a good picture of her flaring to show off her full spreaded fin


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm almost 100% sure she is a veiltail as well.two ray branching.


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

Not sure what that means, but when she flares it's like a perfect D shape I've seen her flare once though


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

she is a VT. petco only sells HM males, unless you're lucky enough to get a HM female as a "baby betta." most corporate pet stores seem to sell a wide variety of males, but only CT and VT females. their suppliers probably either keep the females of other tail types for breeding or online sales since in the mainstream pet trade, males sell WAY more easily than females. if the supplier has the choice of selling a HM female for a buck or two to be resold by petco, or sell her online for $5-10, which do you think he's gonna choose?


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

She has 4 ray branching, so she's at least a delta, great find!


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

MoonShadow said:


> She has 4 ray branching, so she's at least a delta, great find!


I'm confused what does all this ray stuff mean, but I've actually seen her flare and its got a straight edge towards her body like in a capital D shape


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## blu the betta (Dec 31, 2012)

shes beautiful!


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

Here I highlighted her rays for you. All bettas have different amounts of ray branching. Veiltails will never have more then 2. Deltas can have 4+ and halfmoons usually have 8+ but can have less. 

Your girl has 4 rays so she is at least a delta, not a veiltail.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Rays are tiny bones that allow the tail to spread. And you can not judge the type of females solely by their shape. And MoonShadow is wrong, she clearly has two rays. Believe me, I own a four ray female and it is way more obvious. She may be a PK, which would have two rays as well.


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

Oh well you learn something new everyday, did not know that let me go count and see what I can see


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

This should help you. This girl has four rays.


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

I can't really it looks like it forks and folds over eachother, but I just held a mirror to her to see if she would flare and her tail curved out to like a capital D is it possible to have like a high spreading veiltail or delta


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

In females, a majority of their tails look similar, so when looking at a female it's a lot easier to just count the rays to try and differentiate what tail type she is/genes she carries.


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

A bettas ray count is based on the highest number of rays present. While she does have only 2 rays in places, she clearly displays 4 rays in at least 1 place and therefore would be considered a 4 ray. And since veiltails never display more then 2 rays she would be considered a single tail or delta, not a veiltail


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification, now I'm always going to be looking at these rays, but at she's better than nothing, I was expecting a veiltail with nice colors ended up with something more


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> And MoonShadow is wrong, she clearly has two rays. Believe me, I own a four ray female and it is way more obvious. She may be a PK, which would have two rays as well.


Rays don't have to be in your face obvious to be there. She clearly has more then 2 rays in spots, its easy to see if you look for it. And she is definitely not a plakat her anal and caudal are too long and her anal is not the right shape for a plakat


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Oh yea she is not a PK. But... She is a veiltail. She has two rays. MoonShadow, have you ever owned a four ray female?


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Oh yea she is not a PK. But... She is a veiltail. She has two rays. MoonShadow, have you ever owned a four ray female?


I have owned 4, 8, 10, 12, and 16 rayed females. This female has obvious branching beyond the 2 rays, its not clear and defined but it is there.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

First of all, there is no visible 4 ray branching. Second of all, you are compleatly ignoring the fact that petsmart does not sell delta or halfmoon females.


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> First of all, there is no visible 4 ray branching. Second of all, you are compleatly ignoring the fact that petsmart does not sell delta or halfmoon females.


I see the branching, it's small and not clearly defined but it is there, she very obviously has more then 2 rays in more then one spot. And mix ups can happen when the fish are packaged and sent to the store. I have gotten a couple delta females and a doubletail female at petsmart. Not to mention a halfmoon plakat labled as a girl (before they started selling plakats) and a 2 halfmoons labled as veiltails (before they ever began selling halfmoons)


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Petsmart, not petco. Why would a breeder who can sell hms for 15 dollars give one to a chain store for less then a dollar?


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)




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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Petsmart, not petco. Why would a breeder who can sell hms for 15 dollars give one to a chain store for less then a dollar?


Yes petsmart I know, that is the store I am referring to. The fish that go to these store come from places that are equivalent to puppy mills, the fish are massed produced and shipped in huge quantities, they don't look carefully at everything fish bagged up, they are not like the breeders who sell their fish for $25 on aquabid. Just because a betta is a halfmoon doesn't mean its worth $15, its the quality of the fish not the tail type that determines its worth.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

That's true, but its not like they just throw all the spawns together and fish one out when they need to sell it. They will always be kept separated because the breeders first priority is money.


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

Yes but these fish mills don't breed purebred lines either, they will breed what ever fish are ready together. Thats why we see so many combtails etc. This female could very well be the result of a VTxHM cross, but she is not pure VT. The breeders first priority is money you're right and that means they need to breed and ship as many fish as possible as fast as possible, they do not go through and evaluate each fish, they roughly estimate the tail type and label as such, and sometimes mistakes are made! I have purchased from petco 2 elephant ear bettas (which sell for $20) that were labled as deltas (which sell for $7) mistakes happen.


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

They handle so much fish, how can you guarantee they won't let one slip out?


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

DoctorWhoLuver said:


> They handle so much fish, how can you guarantee they won't let one slip out?


Exactly, and it happens more often then you might think!


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Honestly, to me, it looks like a young male HM or det with as long as those fins are, but I haven't looked very hard at anything besides finnage.

Matt, you need to calm down. Bettas get mislabeled all the time. Petsmart and petco may not sell them, but this clearly is NOT a VT or CT. You should know that. Even without ray count being factored in the OP is stating that this "girl" makes a perfect HM spread. How in any world could that be considered vt?


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

aemaki09 said:


> Honestly, to me, it looks like a male HM.
> 
> Matt, you need to calm down. Bettas get mislabeled all the time. Petsmart and petco may not sell them, but this clearly is NOT a VT or CT. You should know that. Even without ray count being factored in the OP is stating that this "girl" makes a perfect HM spread. How in any world could that be considered vt?


Hmmmm now that you mention it, I do see where you're getting possible male from. Especially the fact that the fish has some odd numbers of ray branching (and I believe ray branching always evens out as the fish grows right?) makes me believe that this fish still has growing left to do!


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

Wait so she could actually be just a little he?


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Wah-- how big is your betta?


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

aemaki09 said:


> Honestly, to me, it looks like a young male HM or det with as long as those fins are, but I haven't looked very hard at anything besides finnage.
> 
> Matt, you need to calm down. Bettas get mislabeled all the time. Petsmart and petco may not sell them, but this clearly is NOT a VT or CT. You should know that. Even without ray count being factored in the OP is stating that this "girl" makes a perfect HM spread. How in any world could that be considered vt?


just playing devil's advocate, i saw someone on here a while ago who had a male VT with a 180 spread.


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

aemaki09 said:


> Wah-- how big is your betta?


 Her body's smaller than my male Betta, but I've had him for almost a year now and thought that he was about that size when I got him and I never really noticed him growing


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

But your title says she's a new HM?


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

No I mean I just got her the male I'm comparing her to I've had for about a year


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Hmm. I can't decide. Do you see and egg spot or beard when (s)he flares?


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

not sure of the eggpot but I dont see a beard on her when she flares


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

Haha okay;


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

wait quick question if rays are bones does that mean tail biters bite though bones?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

*Anatomy 101: Layman's Terms*

There are many different types of bones. There are thick, thin, and everything in-between. Long, short, dense, and irregular. We must remember that bones are truly living, breathing, cells. This allows them to grow and repair themselves. That means that when a fish bites on it's tail, although it is biting on a bone, it's rays/bones have the ability to grow back. I am sure that a fish's bone cells cycle much quicker than a human's as well. I hope this helps.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Ooh yes, it could be a male. A 180 spread does not mean a hm like ht said. And a vt x hm would result in 100% vt fish.


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## wah543 (Mar 18, 2012)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> *Anatomy 101: Layman's Terms*
> 
> There are many different types of bones. There are thick, thin, and everything in-between. Long, short, dense, and irregular. We must remember that bones are truly living, breathing, cells. This allows them to grow and repair themselves. That means that when a fish bites on it's tail, although it is biting on a bone, it's rays/bones have the ability to grow back. I am sure that a fish's bone cells cycle much quicker than a human's as well. I hope this helps.


 Ha I get all that, I'm in pre med by the way, I'm just wondering its weird thinking you can eat your own bones


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I would compare tail rays more to fingernails then bones.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

MattsBettas said:


> I would compare tail rays more to fingernails then bones.


This makes more sense anyways.


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