# sparta really needs to grow



## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

okay, sparta is my 1 fry from my last spawn the red HMxVT spawn from November,22(?), 2011 and i have one fry left. 4 days ago he/she turned 3 months, but he/she is wayy under size :lol: am starting to worry, i do every 2nd day changes (should i make it daily? :|) and it is actually %100 percent changes, and he/she lives in i don't even think it is a gallon tank :-? and i feed him/her HBH baby bites, since i have i can't hatch BBS and i don't have money to buy a culture of what evers. and his size is around this:







(smaller i think) and he/she has no coloration either, he only has red tinted eye's and that's it. if anyone knows another way i would appreciate it


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I've had some take a long time to grow. Since you can't buy any cultures, try smashing betta pellets and see if he can eat them. My fry that hatched in December are eating crushed betta pro pellets.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

If the fry wasn't given the right nutrition/care from early on, it will probably take a long time to rectify. 

I have 12 or so 4-5 month old Betta albimarginata fry that received hardly any proper nutrition and care, and only now with lots of daily feeding and water changes am I seeing improvements in growth rates.

Likewise, some recent fry that are 2-3 weeks old and have received proper nutrition and care since I separated them into a grow-out, are nearly as big as some of those 4-5 month old ones.

Can I ask how come you can't hatch BBS? All I use is a 2L soft drink bottle, warm, de-chlorinated water, table salt and an air stone. It's fairly simple and the only real pain is that you need to do it regularly.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

oh okay, i'll try it but ....uh my pellets are pretty big though :lol: there a half the size of a rice grain, the reason i can't hatch BBS because some reason they either don't hatch or the die the next day  and my dad sometimes puts them on the window because he dosen't like it so i find it on my window freezing cold (it's winter here)


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Ah, I keep mine in a plastic tub filled with water and with the cheapest heater I could find chucked in.

If Sparta is taking the pellets and they have enough nutrients for fry (you really need a high-protein food to put on size), I say just give it some time.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

how will you crush the pellet's with? :lol: i don't want to use something that could contaminate the food


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Your tank and wc schedule sounds adequate.
If you have Frozen BW, cut them down to size to feed him.
You can use 2 spoons to crush your pellets or sterilize a small rock and grind it with that.


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

I used a penny when my Petco "baby betta" was still too small for the regular size New Life Spectrum betta pellets. I didn't have any issues with it, just make sure it's a clean coin.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Wow that's cold.
Will try some frozen bbs,daphia or tubflix worm.
Idk what size is your fry but if the frozen food is a bit to big.
Chop it down.
There a lot of culture
Not many people use this but it also work.
Get some clean worm from a bait fish store
Culture them.
Get none toxic soil base/potting soil bedding


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

CFB: he/she this big:







maybe a bit smaller 
got new pics of sparta: some of them you could see a red tint in his eye's


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Thats a bit small for his/her age.
Switch the diet to high protein/fatty food
What the temp.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

i don't have a thermometer no more either  and my heater can't make heat no more (it was like that for awhile), i have my radiator on though and his/her light collect lot's of heat and keeps him/her warm


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

W/out knowing the temp.
Is like raising the fish blind.
The temp play a big role.
Anything below 75 will stump the growth
Even with a good diet
How big is the tank


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

CFB: as you read i have no money  there is no way i could got another thing unless my parents think it is urgent and they don't have money to spend really, and they think buying a heater isn't really important right now. and am pretty busy on thinking what to feed sparta next and am worried about his bottom fin, as you can see am in stress (personal things too)
and also i know what you mean, i know i need a heater and stuff. and the tank is around a half a gallon or so. sorry if i sounded rude, i didn't attempt to


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

I know how u feel.
Use to be young n living under my parents roof.
But u can work around it.
If your breeding
Just learn how to raise them up quick with number(150+ to selling size in 4 month)
Choose when to breed(end of spring)
Then try to sell everything at a cheap price(.60-1.50)/trade
Will Keep one or two pair(hold for next season)
With the money u save and trade for fish equipment
U will be set for the next breeding season
Start small
Sad to say but fighter sell a lot easier


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree with Curly. You really have to start small and progress to bigger things when breeding such things as bettas.

@Curlyfatbottom: Is this true? Why are they so easy to sell? I honestly don't think I would like to support this though. It is sad, but we have to understand that this is part of another countries cultures.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

You have no larger tank like a 20 gallon that could be used for grow out? What if he/she had hundreds of siblings? I've said it before and I'll say it again: you MUST have ALL the proper equipment BEFORE you spawn your fish. Yes spawning and breeding is fun and tempting but without self control and patience this happens. 

Trying not to sound rude. But we have all been in this situation before.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> I agree with Curly. You really have to start small and progress to bigger things when breeding such things as bettas.
> 
> @Curlyfatbottom: Is this true? Why are they so easy to sell? I honestly don't think I would like to support this though. It is sad, but we have to understand that this is part of another countries cultures.


Yes
For the blood sport.
Younger kid buy them since there cheap.
Easier to take care of.
Plus if you can produce a good line.
The male will have a lock price 
From 20-50 each for all the male(10-150 male in each batch)
Female usually cull or chop up.
Since most breeder believe the female carry the good gene
They rather kill then sell
Even when people are will to pay top dollor for them


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> I agree with Curly. You really have to start small and progress to bigger things when breeding such things as bettas.
> 
> @Curlyfatbottom: Is this true? Why are they so easy to sell? I honestly don't think I would like to support this though. It is sad, but we have to understand that this is part of another countries cultures.


Yes
For the blood sport.
Younger kid buy them since there cheap.
Easier to take care of.
Plus if you can produce a good line.
The male will have a lock price 
From 20-50 each for all the male(10-150 male in each batch)
Female usually cull or chop up.
Since most breeder believe the female carry the good gene
They rather kill then sell
Even when people are will to pay top dollor for them


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Or you can be like Aquastar71 and sell a bad fish for $200 and claim it "rare". >.>


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

But did It get sold.
Don't matter what price u put on the fish.
All it matter is it proven or does it breed true.
Anything over 100 for a pair is over price to me


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Well let's see to a novice betta keeper/breeder this is a nice fish:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1330709410

To me this fish is not worth $150 PLUS import fees. In fact his fins are not very good and he is an obvious X-factor fish. This fish would make me go broke and ruin my line. This fish is worth $5 if that. 

To a novice $150 means it's a good fish and worth buying and breeding.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

But to get back on track.

How can the OP possibly sell fish to raise money when they can't raise the fish in the first place due to lack of proper equipment?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

It's a shame that a lot of his fish have nice or unusual colouring, but that the quality of the fins and the body just isn't there. 

I also think a lot of HMs don't have the substance through the body to carry all that finnage correctly so then they go around looking like they're sinking half the time.

Also, is there some way you could convince your parents to purchase a heater for your fry tank? Constant temperature fluctuations are bad enough to adults, let alone fry. 

Do you have another tank you could put Sparta's in so that at least the temperature will be stabilised?


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## BeautifulBetta (Nov 12, 2011)

^+1 Mr.Vampire181.

PS: That AB fish has beautiful colour, but his anal fin is definitely way too long, thats a huge issue for me, that drives me crazy lol. I definitely wouldnt pay that much.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

LittleBettaFish said:


> It's a shame that a lot of his fish have nice or unusual colouring, but that the quality of the fins and the body just isn't there.
> 
> I also think a lot of HMs don't have the substance through the body to carry all that finnage correctly so then they go around looking like they're sinking half the time.


Exactly. That's I breed HMPK to HM. The thick body of the HMPK helps them carry fins and the HMPK genes shorten and strengthen the long fins to make them easier to carry.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Yes
> For the blood sport.
> Younger kid buy them since there cheap.
> Easier to take care of.
> ...


Wow that is terrible! I guess It makes sense to them, but I wouldn't have the heart to purposely kill my fish that I created. If I were them I would probably sell them to nonbreeders if they care that much about selling prize fish.



MrVampire181 said:


> Or you can be like Aquastar71 and sell a bad fish for $200 and claim it "rare". >.>


Oh JEEZE! He kills me with that! It's ridiculous how bad his fish's form and overall health can be at times. He isnt a true breeder. A true breeder doesnt breed ONLY for profit. They breed for the enjoyment of the fish and the profit is to share their fish and to be sure they are able to continue. I really dont like his fish all that much to tell you the truth. There is always something wrong with one of them. I've noticed that his fish dont last very long. Especially with all the people I have talked to. Yes he has some good feedback, but his fish aren't cut out for a long life.



MrVampire181 said:


> You have no larger tank like a 20 gallon that could be used for grow out? What if he/she had hundreds of siblings? I've said it before and I'll say it again: you MUST have ALL the proper equipment BEFORE you spawn your fish. Yes spawning and breeding is fun and tempting but without self control and patience this happens.
> 
> Trying not to sound rude. But we have all been in this situation before.


MrV, I agree. We all have been in these shoes once before because of the temptations. At least most of us have. It is a lesson that someone has to go through if they are willing to breed with little materials. This is why when a breeder has really learned, they will give the same lecture to another person that might not be too prepared as well. It's the nicest way to say it.



betta lover1507 said:


> CFB: as you read i have no money  there is no way i could got another thing unless my parents think it is urgent and they don't have money to spend really, and they think buying a heater isn't really important right now. and am pretty busy on thinking what to feed sparta next and am worried about his bottom fin, as you can see am in stress (personal things too)
> and also i know what you mean, i know i need a heater and stuff. and the tank is around a half a gallon or so. sorry if i sounded rude, i didn't attempt to


Many have suggested to just give what you can for now and since you really dont have materials, you should find you way around it. I cash bottles to get money. I still do it to this day and come u with 20-30 dollars with just three or four bags of cans and bottles that are recycleable. Trust me it works. When being 13 you find your ways. At least I did. It isn't too hard. I have done it for a while and actually bought one of my ten gallon tanks by doing this. It also feels even better because I feel that I have earned it all by myself. Try little things like this. Maybe ask for an allowance or a raise if you have one already. A little work around the house always works. Also if you have a nearby barber shop, see if you can ask them if they need some help sweeping up hair after the days in. That specific one probably wouldn't work too well since you need your working papers, but if you were to possibly know them, it could be a little help in that way as well. I think that is the best I've got.

Good Luck!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have to agree with MrV. Having the proper equipment is important if you're going to raise happy, healthy fish.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

BeautifulBetta said:


> ^+1 Mr.Vampire181.
> 
> PS: That AB fish has beautiful colour, but his anal fin is definitely way too long, thats a huge issue for me, that drives me crazy lol. I definitely wouldnt pay that much.


Not only the fins but the scales show signs of an X-factor fish. Bad genes all around.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

bettalover2033 said:


> Wow that is terrible! I guess It makes sense to them, but I wouldn't have the heart to purposely kill my fish that I created. If I were them I would probably sell them to nonbreeders if they care that much about selling prize fish.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post!



dramaqueen said:


> I have to agree with MrV. Having the proper equipment is important if you're going to raise happy, healthy fish.


Thanks DQ! It takes a lot of work to breed and when I posts like I have been seeing (even worse on youtube) it breaks my heart because no one is telling these new breeders what they are doing wrong or what they have not been lectured on. I cannot stress the importance of taking the long route with breeding... that means proper fish, equipment, and food. There is more success and it's worth it.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

That fish have a nice color to it.
But lack of a clean edge.
With a few generation cross to hmdt will improve the edging of the fish.
Hmpk won't really improve him since hmpk tend to throw long anal fin
More unwanted fish
With a weak dorso fin


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Yes hmpk help with extend ray n fatting the tail base with a thicker body
Bottom line U must test and error to find the right combination for a hm


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

But in all honesty that fish should not be bred AT ALL. He is X-factor so breeding him will end in disaster.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> Thanks DQ! It takes a lot of work to breed and when I posts like I have been seeing (even worse on youtube) it breaks my heart because *no one is telling these new breeders what they are doing wrong* or what they have not been lectured on. I cannot stress the importance of taking the long route with breeding... that means proper fish, equipment, and food. There is more success and it's worth it.


That is the BIGGEST problem I have to address and explain a bit more into dept. First I want to say that OP I mean not to be rude and these implications are not directed strait to you, but to new breeders in general.

On this forum I have noticed a lot of things. In the beginning of my presence here, I noticed that people were doing the right thing by lecturing new breeders that came to the forum only searching for answers to questions that any real breeder would get in a heartbeat. We told them to research and little questions were okay since they weren't something drastic like "How do I know when the female has had enough" *(Mind you that I HAVE heard all the questions on this forum before)*

Another absolutely insane question that really got to me was " How can I tell when the fish are done having sex?" This question really made me angry. I left it alone because I knew that it would have been inappropriate to reply with something that was rude.

That question is not only inappropriate, but it is very ignorant since any person really interested in fish would know they don't have "sex", and very disrespectful to the species in general. That is where IMO it was crossing the line and very inappropriate considering we have younger kids on this forum.

All I am trying to point out is that before it was okay to lecture a person about breeding, but later it was considered "Bashing" and mean to criticize in what I thought was a civilized way. Of course things have changed, but i dont think just handing the information to new breeders that join the forum for answers is okay. Its rude and sad for the fry.


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## BeautifulBetta (Nov 12, 2011)

^+1.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Yes n no.
It depend on How u manage your line.
How u can balance it out.
If the fish look to much a freak use a correct fish to breed with it.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

bettalover2033 said:


> That is the BIGGEST problem I have to address and explain a bit more into dept. First I want to say that OP I mean not to be rude and these implications are not directed strait to you, but to new breeders in general.
> 
> On this forum I have noticed a lot of things. In the beginning of my presence here, I noticed that people were doing the right thing by lecturing new breeders that came to the forum only searching for answers to questions that any real breeder would get in a heartbeat. We told them to research and little questions were okay since they weren't something drastic like "How do I know when the female has had enough" *(Mind you that I HAVE heard all the questions on this forum before)*
> 
> ...


This is a problem. Again not directed at OP (again very sorry at the situation) but it's getting worse and worse. 

Instead of, "What is your tank set up like?" "Do you have jars and a grow out tank?" "Do you have the proper food?" I see "THEY'LL MAKE PRETTY BABIES GOOD LUCK!!". No offense all bettas are beautiful in my eyes but telling someone to go ahead and breed a veil tail for "pretty babies" isn't okay. Breeding is serious and challenging. It's worse when people who have had bettas for less than a year jump into breeding. It takes time and care to read betta body language and learn about the species. Also kids are breeding. Now I was 11 or 12 for my first spawn but ask anyone who remembers when I first joined they thought I was like 30. It requires being mature. Now I'm lucky my parents help (my dad keeps tetras and his cousin used to breed angelfish). But kids who want to breed need to learn how to control their want to breed and think ahead. I am cleaning out my fish room and I could buy and breed a pair whenever I want but I won't because I want to prepare to get back into raising fry and caring for adults. We need to promote research and maturity not "pretty babies". 

Again OP, what's done is done. Let's try and get the little tike to grow


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I am not weighing in on my thoughts and beliefs which mirror pretty much everything being said. I am just a new breeder who is in the process of raising his first spawn. But as such I have to say it is thanks to this forum at people like you all that I was prepared and took the time to make sure I had everything I needed to breed and raise fry.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> This is a problem. Again not directed at OP (again very sorry at the situation) but it's getting worse and worse.
> 
> Instead of, "What is your tank set up like?" "Do you have jars and a grow out tank?" "Do you have the proper food?" I see "THEY'LL MAKE PRETTY BABIES GOOD LUCK!!". No offense all bettas are beautiful in my eyes but telling someone to go ahead and breed a veil tail for "pretty babies" isn't okay. Breeding is serious and challenging. It's worse when people who have had bettas for less than a year jump into breeding. It takes time and care to read betta body language and learn about the species. Also kids are breeding. Now I was 11 or 12 for my first spawn but ask anyone who remembers when I first joined they thought I was like 30. It requires being mature. Now I'm lucky my parents help (my dad keeps tetras and his cousin used to breed angelfish). But kids who want to breed need to learn how to control their want to breed and think ahead. I am cleaning out my fish room and I could buy and breed a pair whenever I want but I won't because I want to prepare to get back into raising fry and caring for adults. We need to promote research and maturity not "pretty babies".
> 
> Again OP, what's done is done. Let's try and get the little tike to grow


Very well said. Lately what has been going on has been "what do you think of my pair" then "their fry are going to be great" and no real lesson has been learned. Something that does happen often is that when new breeders are given information and it wasn't sugar coded enough they think it is rude and do what they please anyway. There is no way that someone is going to force you to do anything.

What many members do on here is help by ONLY thinking of the fish and that is understandable, but since sometimes that can be very blunt and sound rude or be interpreted as rude, I try to keep in mind the situation and how I would have like to be told. Yes sometimes I make it as a joke insinuating that it's what needs to be done, but it can get tiresome when you are constantly trying to be sure that you are not coming off as rude. Unlike many I want to be known for an information giver AND a kind person as well. I usually give my experience and personal opinion mostly on the the fish's overall health and better life depending on the situation. If I know that something that got me angry, then I won't reply because it would turn into a conflict that is just not needed and is pretty childish. I can be sarcastic and sometimes it does come out because of how it makes me think of the person, but it is not needed and very immature. I do not like to think of anyone as a higher or lower level as myself. It's to high school. Anyway, If I find out that I am wrong about something, I will admit to it and apologize for the wrong information. Most of the time I would like a source, but not necessary. I make sure that I 

What I'm saying is that I agree and maturity levels do play a big role when breeding bettas. I can admit that I thought MrV was in his 20s or older when I first joined this forum LOL.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> I am not weighing in on my thoughts and beliefs which mirror pretty much everything being said. I am just a new breeder who is in the process of raising his first spawn. But as such I have to say it is thanks to this forum at people like you all that I was prepared and took the time to make sure I had everything I needed to breed and raise fry.


You see. That is the true "instinct" of a breeder. Though Amphibianite, not many people have as much self control as you do. To be honest I didn't, but I had to pay the price. Your spawn was very successful and you took all the correct precautions to succeed in an embrace. Nothing beats a first spawn done correctly. Especially seeing the embrace in person.


Great job and good luck!


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

uhh i never said anything about breeding soon, and what does this HMPK branching about? :| also i had the stuff i needed for spawning it's just my family broke everything, my filter, my heater, thermo. and i do have a 20 gallon (breeder) tank still.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

BL1507- A lot of it was more in generality than directed at you. The topic kinda got shifted from you to new breeders in general.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

well i guess... now what about the HMPK? i don't even know whats going on in this thread :lol:


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

betta lover1507 said:


> well i guess... now what about the HMPK? i don't even know whats going on in this thread :lol:


Lol basically we were saying that by breeding a HMPK to a HM you help give the long finned males in the next generations a stronger body and shorter fins which are easier to carry.

Again NO posts were directed at you or were meant to be rude! Sorry if it seemed that way.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

i don't even have a HMPK


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

betta lover1507 said:


> i don't even have a HMPK


We just got onto fins for some reason haha.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Oh the joys of side conversations haha


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

As far as getting him to grow can you get him into a larger tank (10 gallon)? The 20 is a bit big right now at his size. Larger tanks maintain temperature better. And can you heat the room? Like with a space heater?


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

I've think a 20 is a bit to large for 1/4" betta
Even the ten
He/she is fine in a 5
It will be a lot easier for him/her to find food
If u don't have a heater
N can't get one u should go smaller.
A 2 gallon so it won't take much heat or light to heat it up.
I use to use heating pad(blanket)
But I've heard those thing catch on fire, so I've stop
Since you have a budget limit.
U must learn how to make it work


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## BeautifulBetta (Nov 12, 2011)

SOLDIERS, BACK TO SPARTA!!

Lol sorry, couldnt resist. Back to topic! xD
Collecting pop cans and such would be a great idea, you keep saying its winter there, same as everywhere else , so why dont you shovel driveways for a few dollars? Unless you don't have snow, then nevermind lol


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree with both Curly and BB. It might be frustrating right now, but trust me it doesn't get any better being broke. If not all of us know the feeling of not being able to breed then we all know the feeling of being broke.

As Curly said, you must find a way to make it work.

As BB said, IT'S WINTER! We all can make some money shoveling. It just snowed here and I thought it was supposed to snow Friday. I once made over $300 shoveling in my neighborhood. If the lot is big enough I would charge $30. But if it was icy and I had to use a scraper (which was very hard btw) I would charge an extra $5-$10 depending on the size. Just don't go overboard with prices.

Anyway, there is Always a way for younger kids to make some extra cash.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> I've think a 20 is a bit to large for 1/4" betta
> Even the ten
> He/she is fine in a 5
> It will be a lot easier for him/her to find food
> ...


my parents threw away my 5 gallon :-( and i don't have any other tanks right now, because i only have a 10 and a 20 gallons :lol: the 1 gallons are in use for the adults. we have no heating at all (besides the radiator) and as i told a little amount of people, i don't live in a house, i live in a apartment in the ghetto. and the nieghbor hood isn't really safe...


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