# Family Matters ( Turquoise Dragon butterfly HM x Green HM)



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

If anyone asks, yes I'm referencing the sitcom... Decided to post a blog/log about how things go.

Here's my two bettas.

Cole (Turquoise dragon halfmoon with butterfly markings)










Myra (Green halfmoon)










Excuse the quality, Kodak camera was on flash for some odd reason. Will try to post better photos.

Will post how things go.

So far, they've been pretty relaxed since I gave them a break before I try again. Though Cole has his moments where he's like...

"What happened to my wife?!"

Watching these two beats renting a Romantic comedy from Netflix.:rofl:


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Cole is beautiful! Although he's not a HM, more like a DeT. And the girl is actually a VT. I really like Cole though!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks.

Though the day I got him the bag they shipped in from the breeder was marked half moon but you have a point his tail looks different than my late betta Theo who was a butterfly halfmoon. So, Myra's a veiltail... I just assumed she was a halfmoon looking on google.

So, I guess their sons and daughters will probably end up being a mix of delta and veil.

Would love it if they get some of his markings.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Kay, new questions. I have read veiltail is a domenant gene and deltas carry halfmoon genes which are ressesive. By the same token, I've read deltas are hard to come by in pet stores. 

Both my fish came from breeders so I'm not sure what their parents look like. 

I'm assuming my bettas' sons and daughters will be a mix of deltas and veiltails and maybe a couple halfmoons if their Dad carries those genes. 

Any idea what I might end up with by mixing a delta and veiltail? 

Also, is true that if the water in the tank is warmer most of the offspring will be males?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It depends on your area, my area is full of DeT's.

Most likely you're going to get a mix of tail types, most of them will be poorly spread DeT's (DeT are supposed to have a spread of around 160 degrees and more than 2 rays to be considered a DeT, otherwise it's just a VT) and a bunch of VT's. You _may_ and that's a very big MAY, end up with a few round tails (variation of VT) or HM's depending on their genes since we don't know them. But for the most part you're going to end up with a classic Turquoise VT with a few of them having the butterfly markings.

And no, that "rule" applies to some species of fish but it doesn't have a huge role in Bettas as seen thus far. Unless some breeder wants to come in and chime differently about it, I've seen no difference between water temperatures and direct correlations to the sex ratio of the fish.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I see, thanks for clearing that up.

At the place where I got Myra she was in a tank with her sisters four of them were the same color as her, the rest were cambodian and one was solid blue. 

I don't know if she carries those colors.

I've seen some halfmoons in Petco but there's a lot of crown tails, veils and some double tails.

The aquarium store where I got Cole had a show quality halfmoon for sale once and a beautiful white female.

They did have some halfmoon plakats. 

I've heard veil tails are common.

Before I got Cole the place where he came from sold out of halfmoons within like a day. So I'm assuming that's their best seller.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Most likely not, she's turquoise which means she'll appear green or blue depending on the lighting situation. Most colors that are solid breed true which means if you breed Royal blue x Royal Blue you'll get all Royal Blue. Of course with some varying fish because pure genetics are extremely rare in our fish because of all the mixing. It can get more complex though if you are breeding Koi's and Marbles because then if you breed a Koi and a Koi the first generation you'll get a bunch of cellophanes, cambodians, some solid blues and reds. And then after that you breed again to get more koi's since they do not breed true the first round.

It's complicated and I might not be the best person to explain all the genetics since I'm not fully educated in it myself, indjo or trilobite both have extensive knowledge of genetics so if you want to learn more you can PM them and ask ^_^ but most likely your girl is from a solid turquoise line, not from a koi line.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

You're probably right. Myra looks green most of the time but other times when she flares or shows her vertical stripes she turns dark blue.

She had a sister who was solid blue so she might have sons and daughters with that color.

The tip of Cole's tail is actually clear so I'm not sure if that came from a cellophane relative in his heritage.

I will PM indjo and trilobite

Thanks again.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The tips will most likely color up to white with age, he may also lose the butterfly markings with age.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I see.

He's seven months old as of this week so I guess I'll find out as he gets older.

My late halfmoon Theo was a butterfly too but when he got fin rot they came back as solid blue, at one point they almost turned white again but he never got his original colors back and the freckle like spots on his face faded.

In terms of size, Myra's longer than Cole, does it make a difference if the female is larger than the male in terms of breeding?

Reason being is I've been told it's better if the female is larger than her mate.

She actually did the submissive pose earlier this week which I was surprised of but I'm glad they like each other. That's always a good thing.


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## BlueLacee (Dec 8, 2013)

they are beautiful, and good luck with your spawn


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks.

I'm considering keeping a female but that's up in the air for now.

I plan to take more photos and post some videos on YouTube.:-D


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Any idea on what the end result would be from mixing a delta with a veil tail?

I mean in terms of colors, markings and fins.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

This is what I said on the last page.



lilnaugrim said:


> Most likely you're going to get a mix of tail types, most of them will be poorly spread DeT's (DeT are supposed to have a spread of around 160 degrees and more than 2 rays to be considered a DeT, otherwise it's just a VT) and a bunch of VT's. You _may_ and that's a very big MAY, end up with a few round tails (variation of VT) or HM's depending on their genes since we don't know them. But for the most part you're going to end up with a classic Turquoise VT with a few of them having the butterfly markings.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I forgot you posted that. My bad...

One thing... should I add aquarium salt to my bettas breeding tank?

I've read about some people adding it or some type of medication to keep fungus from covering the eggs.

I have an antibiotic called Betta revive that has really helped my fish when they've been sick.

If there's no need for me to add the salt or meds I'll leave them out.

I know the meds are sometimes added to the water that young bettas are in to keep them from getting sick during shipping from the breeder/supplier to the pet store.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Not AQ salt, that won't do anything. If you add anything you want to use Methylene Blue which is a general disease prevention and anti-fungal medication. AQ salt only does a few things; sterilizes open wounds on fish and iritates the slime coat of fish causing them to produce excess slime and they shed the old one as the new one comes in. That's good for fighting parasites but it also stresses the liver/kidneys. 

You also don't really want to use an antibiotic, the more you use an antibiotic the less effective it is in the end because bacteria can become resistant to it after so much usage. So we want to avoid doing that and only use it when we really need to. 

But really there isn't much need, you can use the Meth Blue or nothing at all.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Got it, so I'll ditch the salt, I don't really use it that much anyway.

Methylene blue sounds almost like betta revive. It helps with treating parasites, bacteria and fungal related illness.

Here's what it looks like.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/betta-revive-medication-08oz

But I only use meds on my fish when nessisary so if I don't need it for them or their offspring I'll leave it out.

As for food, I switch between frozen blood worms and pellets. I do have frozen brine shrimp but neither Cole or Myra like them so I'll save that for the fry when they get older. I did get a package of Hikari brand first bites which is made for all life stages of fish fry. Contains the amount of protein and vitamins they need and boosts their immune systems. I've also read some people have given boiled egg yolk to young bettas so I'll probably use that as well.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, but Meth Blue only has one ingredient lol. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4822

But as for food, yes, you can use boiled egg yolk but that's more of a last resort type of thing. Have you ever looked into Microworm cultures, vinegar eels, or grindal worms? They're pretty easy to culture given a bit of time and great for the fry! Baby brine shrimp are always good to feed too and then once they are big enough you can get on decap brine shrimp and frozen foods.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I've heard of them except for the grindal worms which I had to look up.

Turns out Petco and Petsmart sell frozen baby brine shrimp. I'll make a note to check though since some stores vary in supplies. I actually ended up going to a different Petco once when they sold out of the water conditioner I use for my bettas. That was sort of a drag but I'd rather have a conditioner that removes heavy metal and such than one that doesn't.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

One other thing...

The place where I got my female take their time when looking for bettas to sell. The store where I got my male had a show quality male for sale once and a beautiful solid white female. 

I've read bettas from breeders usually have good genes whereas ones from pet store chains like Petco and Petsmart usually don't. 

Is this true?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes! Mostly because you usually know what kind of stock their coming from whereas from big chain stores it's a whole gamble. You could end up with a huge mix of genes whereas if you get them from a breeder and see the parents/siblings you know what kind of genes they have.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's good to know. Seriously, at Petco I saw a cambodian betta whose tail had rotted in the worst way. Showed him to a cashier who agreed to turn him over to the guy who worked in the fish department. Went back the next day to get dog food and guess who was on the shelf? the betta and he hadn't been treated at all. I turned him over to another employee so I hope someone took care of him this time.

A fish like that shouldn't be put up for sale. I've seen some baby bettas as well.

One reason why I like aquarium stores is because they get their bettas directly from breeders. Plus the place where I got Myra keep their females in tanks and males are in jars large enough for them to expand their fins, turn around and lay down.

I heard from one Petco employee they get their bettas from a supplier in Japan. 

The fish are mislabeled sometimes too. I saw a male marked as a dragon scale but he looked more metalic than anything else.

Cole actually came in with some halfmoons and a black orchid crowntail. Same breeder but I doubt they were related.

Course, I could be wrong.

It should be interesting to see what I end up with since Cole is from Florida and Myra came from Thailand.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

Petco mislabels bettas all the time. Either that or the full grown male with a baby betta label had been there a long time.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That could happen.

I've seen baby bettas at Petco, including 2 Cambodians who were sisters. They looked to be around a month old but cute.

Looking forward to how things turn out with mine. 

I'm sort of nervous but excited.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

Hopefully things go out well. You know, I should probably read the first post to see what you are doing.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

Are you breeding them?


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Yes.

I've never bred bettas before which is why I'm nervous but at the same time I'm excited about it.

There's photos of my bettas on page one.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

best of luck!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Hoping for the best. 

I saw posts about your HMPK spawn. How'd that work out for you?


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

What are you going to do with the fry?


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I've thought about keeping a female. As for the rest I made a deal with an aquarium store owner who will take them once they're old enough to leave home.

I think that'll be the hardest part for me aside from the possibility of loosing a few along the way.

That's why I plan to take plenty of photos and post videos on YouTube.

I've already been thinking about a list of names, just so I can tell them apart.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

Let me know if you need any. I am fairly good at thinking up names for fish.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I'm open for suggestions.

So far I have...

Asia

China

Kojo

Remi

Angus

Cora

Avon

Java


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

Can't wait to see pictures! My brother owns a fish store so i'm hoping I can sell my spawns there! My betta's did their first spawning today but sadly Lightning (the Dad) ate all his eggs.. Plus side mom don't need much recovery b/c dad didnt hurt her at all


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks... so sorry about Lightning at least he didn't hurt his mate.

Cole's rather mild tempered, he did snap at Myra but mostly if he got too close he panicked and went the other way. Funny thing is she waited under the bubble nest just staring at him. When I separated them she did the head down/ submissive pose later on. Anytime Myra saw Cole notice her she'd get up and look at him.

Saw her doing a similar thing yesterday so I'll put them together again next weekend.

Right now I've been reconditioning them.

Cole did have a moment last week where he was like... 

"What happened to my wife?!"


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

Here's a list of names- (I can think of more)
Abby Angel Alice Anna Anne Ann Araminta Arabella
Betty Bertha Bianca
Carolyn Caitlin Cara Charlotte
Denise Daisy 
Elizabeth Enid
Francine Fatima
Gernise Gemma
Hannah Hilda Hazel 
Isa Imogen
Jessie Joan Jen Jennifer Joyce Jenny Josephine 
Kara kate
Lizzy Lisa liza Lotty Lucy
Megan, Margret, Maggie Marila Mary
Nora Nina Nancy 
Olga 
Penny, Penelope Pristella
Quenie
Rose Rosemary Robin Rebbeca
Sarah Susan Sally Sue Sidney 
Tara Taylor Tabitha Tiny Tim
Vera
Wendy
Xenia
Yolanda


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Nice list.

I love the name Hazel. 

Funny there's a few on there that are my favorites.

Though I probably won't name them until they're old enough for me to tell the difference between the males and females.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

I like the name Hazel too. Most of the names on here are girl names, though a couple aren't. I made them up when my friend needed character names for a story. I normally look up famous queens or kings when I name my bettas.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's interesting.

One reason why I added Remi and Angus is because I have French and Scottish in my heritage.

I also like the name Cricket.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

*Up in the air.*

Talked with two members here regarding betta genetics and it looks like the fry could be a mix of veil tails, deltas and round tails...

As for colors here's what Cole and Myra's offspring could end up with:

Turquoise

Multi color

Iridescence 

Partial dragon

Steel

Metallic

Butterfly

Because butterfly is a variety of marble, it's possible some of my bettas' sons and daughters could be marbled.

If Myra carries the cambodian coloring that her sisters had, those markings might pop up.

All this is up in the air since I don't know about Cole and Myra's heritage other than they came from different breeders.

I look forward to seeing what mixed/ hybrid fry my bettas have.

Here's a classic example of a hybrid.

This one is a Half moon and Veil tail mix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFAS7iPLlvA

Roundtail betta.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ab8hfeYMA0s/UEoezYnV0GI/AAAAAAAAAQE/8KOzXCRH2TE/s1600/roundtail1.jpeg

Overall, this'll be interesting.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

Love the names. If lightning decides not to eat his eggs next spawn I may use some of them


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Nice.

I also love names from other countries.

Came across the name Ratana which is Thai... translated, it means 'Crystal'

I highly recommend checking out babynames.com they have a huge archive ranging from Aboriginal to Welsh.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Looked at Myra and she's really filled out.

The white spot on her stomach is more obvious now.

Been re-conditioning she and Cole, so I'll be putting them back together probably over the weekend.

If this experience has taught him anything it's how to build bubble nests. 

I've seen some bettas with large nests that are really thick.

His is on the small side and somewhat think but thin enough so I can see what it looks like underneath.

That wouldn't be problem for the eggs or fry would it?

I've seen him extend the nest and fix holes.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

He might make it bigger when he sees his new girlfriend.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

pic please!!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Pippin said:


> He might make it bigger when he sees his new girlfriend.


True. He added on to it today then parked in a corner where he used to watch her before I blocked his view last week.

Myra lowered her head in a submissive way three times this afternoon. I tried to watch from a distance so she wouldn't notice me. Anytime I walk into the room, she and Cole stop whatever they're doing and look at me.

The week before last Myra was sulking when I separated them.

They definitely love each other...despite 'the wedding' not going as planned.



ASmith1985 said:


> pic please!!


Nothing worth taking a picture of right now... sorry.:-(

I plan to post a video of them on YouTube sometime this week.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

when you do let me know.. Im loving this!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Sure thing.

I'll say this, it beats watching a romantic comedy.

I'd put it more in the Nat Geo category.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Not much to post this time. Myra flared at me though. I hope she's not too mad for not seeing Cole in over a week.

I'm thinking of putting a terra cotta flower pot in the tank as a hiding place for Myra but I'm still not sure.

Any opinions on this?

I will be picking up some silk plants at Petco so I might just use those.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Noticed Cole has a habit of looking at his reflection in the glass. 

He doesn't flare just moves his fins and tail around. 

Myra sometimes turns a dark blue, shows her stripes and lowers her tail.

Oh, just noticed I passed the 100th post mark!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Saw Myra doing the submissive pose and some 'dancing' earlier. 

Plan to put she and Cole together this weekend.

They're really in love this time. Found out the local fish store where I got medication for fin rot also sells brine shrimp eggs as well as baby brine shrimp in the frozen case. Really good prices too. 

Glad betta fry are quiet...I'd freak out if woke up one morning and had 30 to 100 newborn bettas that sound like this Corgi puppy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kQnrKvOTNg

But how could anyone say no to a face like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5dMNpc70fY


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Been testing my camera.

Will be uploading a video of Cole and Myra...

Every wonder how bettas react to bloodworms?

Stay tuned to find out!


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

TealHoundogg said:


> Been testing my camera.
> 
> Will be uploading a video of Cole and Myra...
> 
> ...


My bettas LOVE freeze-dried bloodworms & decap brine shrimp, tho I only use the bloodworms 2 condition. The brine shrimp make a fun treat for all my bettas!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's interesting. I've been using thawed out bloodworms from a pack of frozen ones. They love it, I tried brine shrimp but that didn't turn out well so I'll keep that for the fry when they get older.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

I noticed this morning that Jade has missed several eggs over nite, but is still interested in guarding & tending the nest. There are atleast 50-60 eggs just laying on the bottom. I really hope that I haven't lost all the spawn... He has diligently patched holes w/ thick bubbles, so I can't really tell what's in there, if anything! There are still a few eggs free floating on the surface, but he's not really paying much attention 2 those. I'm clueless what 2 do about the sunken eggs tho, & I'm becoming more nervous as time passes... Anxious 2 see if we get any babies!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

He might not be paying attention to those because they're either not fertile or may have stopped developing. I have heard of some bettas who have bred without a bubble nest. 

But I can understand you being nervous. My male usually builds nests that are somewhat thick but get thinner when he extends them. He does repair it if there's a few holes.

Some first time spawns are small, so if you get like... say 5 or twelve out of it, that's not bad. Though I've heard of as many as 35 to 100 surviving.

Still I can relate, I think the hardest part for me will probably the possibility of losing a few fry to illness besides the day when they're old enough to leave home. 

A friend of mine cried when her dog's puppies left home, which is why I plan to take plenty of photos and video tape the fry as they grow up.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

As promised, here's a video of Cole and Myra. Excuse the quality...

Guess who came to Dinner?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLI0X7pGgMk


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Saw Myra doing her submissive pose last night. She didn't notice me until about three minutes later. Then she got up.

Cole reacts the same way when building a bubble nest. If he sees me watching he'll stop and look at me.

It's pretty funny.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

hehe put her in with him if her stripes don't fade then just wait It took about an hour each time then I noticed her going under the nest ready for spawning.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I'll try that. Though I'll need to get a different size breeding box to put her in. Turns out the one I got at Petco won't work for an 8 gallon tank.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

While changing the water today I allowed Cole and Myra to see each other for a few minutes. They're certainly in love now. Myra's not only filled out but she shows her stripes regardless of if she sees Cole or not. 

So I'll be putting them back together later this week. Hopefully by Monday, they'll finally be parents!


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

If they do get pictures!


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## William Zhong (May 13, 2014)

just let 'em together, and keep your eyes on 'em


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Hoping it'll work out this time.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

ASmith1985 said:


> If they do get pictures!


Sure thing.



William Zhong said:


> just let 'em together, and keep your eyes on 'em


Will do.


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## William Zhong (May 13, 2014)

make sure your betta is ready to breed. how old are they?


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thank you. I've been watching them and she's been showing her stripes(vertical stripes) more often and he's taken notice.

My male Cole is 7 months old and Myra(the female) is 9 months.

Both are from different breeders. Myra came from Thailand and Cole is from Florida.


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## William Zhong (May 13, 2014)

wow, how can you get myra? i mean, myra is to far from her birthplace, how can you buy her? how about the temperature? Thailand is a tropical place, warm and high light. im just curious


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

William Zhong said:


> wow, how can you get myra? i mean, myra is to far from her birthplace, how can you buy her? how about the temperature? Thailand is a tropical place, warm and high light. im just curious


Most of the time we import from AquaBid and the thailand breeders ship them on over. Yes we know all about the tropical temperatures, if you read our stickies you will find that we know where they come from and how to properly acclimate them and take care of them! Thanks for your concern though.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Lilaugim's right. 

I've never bought a fish from aquabid. Both Cole and Myra were purchased at aquarium stores who get their bettas directly from breeders. She and her sisters were all in the same tank. Quite a few of them had the cambodian markings(cream colored bodies with red fins), Myra was one of five who were turquiose and she had one sister who was solid blue. According to the store employee they were some of the most colorful females they had in stock at that time. So my guess she and her sisters possibly come from a line that was bred to have brilliant colors.

Cole was labeled as a halfmoon but I found out he's a delta...There was a mustard gas halfmoon that came from the same breeder but I doubt he and Cole are brothers or even cousins.


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## William Zhong (May 13, 2014)

i see i see. but honestly, for me, thats to expensive. for example, i saw the vieltail betta sell for $25. in my place, you can buy for 10 betta with $25


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Haha, well you are much closer to the source than we are! Even still, most VT's go very cheap here as they are the most common tail type. Fancy VT's are another story though as not many people will breed them so they are worth a little bit more.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

True. I've seen female veiltails for sale on ebay for $3 and this is from a pet store in San Diego. The place where I got Cole had Koi bettas for $35 which is a far cry from the higher price tags on Aquabid.

Some of the major show circuits don't even recognize veiltails anymore because they've been heavily bred for the pet market.

Just realized I made a mistake, Myra is now 10 months old.

I've read one breeder who has wild type bettas that are 2 years and still producing eggs.

Since this is her first spawn, will I be able to breed her again after she turns 1?

I only ask cause there's people who don't recommend breeding bettas after that.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Totally, it's easiest and best to breed young fish but if conditioned properly, introduced properly and taken care of properly you can breed her again!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's good.

They flared at each other today but she did show her stripes. Though when she saw him notice he panicked and swam the other way.

Funny as all get out.

Oh, one other thing I notice some fry tanks have a desk lamp next to them, my only concern for using onei s would it raise the tempurature. 

I've also read some fish owners unplug their heaters during the summer because the room gets warm enough where the fish don't need an artificial source. The room Cole and Myra are in usually stays between 78 to 80 degrees though it somestimes gets up around 82 and 83.

I've been told by two fish store employees that if that's the case I don't need a heater. I've seen one breeder on YouTube who had a fry tank with no heater and they were fine because the room got warm enough.

----
Still if I have to run out and get a heater, I will.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It won't raise the temperature if you use a Compact Fluorescent Light (CFL), if you use Incandescent it will but CFL's are much more efficient, you probably won't need a very bright light so 5,000 Kelvin should do just fine, a small 9 or 13 watt will suffice.

If the WATER stays around 80 then yes, it is fine to unplug your heaters, otherwise, keep them in.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Ok, thanks. I have a thermometor I can use to check the water. My desk lamp has a 20 watt bulb. The room where I keep my adult bettas gets a lot of sunlight from the windows so I doubt I'll need the light on during the day.

If I don't need the desk lamp then I won't use it.


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## William Zhong (May 13, 2014)

i wish i can breed my bettas, but there is no time, place and my mom not allow me


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Aw, that bites. Hope you get the chance to do it one day.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Checked to see how Cole and Myra are doing in terms of behavior. They did flare at each other this morning but only for a couple seconds. It didn't seem they were being aggressive towards each other. After that Myra seemed to lower her head and showed her stripes. Stayed still for the longest. I don't think she seems to mind when Cole looks at her now and he didn't panic this time either, just swam around and showed off his fins.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Here's how things went while feeding Cole and Myra this morning.

He flared, she just looked and showed her stripes.

They flared at each other but then she looked away still showing her stripes.

He tried a third time and she stared, no flaring or being aggressive she did flex her tail though.

Any idea what this means?

I assume it means she's being submissive but I'm not sure.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

hey Teal, one thing im confused about-- are Cole and Myra actually together in the same tank? you're not supposed to expose bettas of the opposite gender for prolonged periods of time, especially if you wish to breed them. the female will begin to ovulate but then if no breeding attempt occurs, she will reabsorb them, whether there is a male or not. when you are conditioning them--it does not mean that you are putting them in places where they can see each other, it means you are simply feeding them heavily so that they can prepare for spawning (takes a lot of energy).

it is normal for a betta courtship to be violent. the female might not even be chasing the male but is trying to follow him to the nest. if the male stops in certain increments, he's waiting for the female to follow him to the nest. if he's running around the tank like hell with the female hot on his heels, she's destroying him. 

if she's doing the s-swim, and bobbing up and down, she's being receptive. vertical bars are a helpful indicator, but does their absence does not mean that the female isn't receptive (my black/orange marble was like this). look at the behavior.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I see, sorry about that. Right now I'm just conditioning them. They aren't actually together at the moment. I have a sheet of paper blocking their view. I'll leave it there until they're together.

Myra does show her stripes regardless of if she sees Cole or not. He's been doing the s-swim and she's done it too.

Lately she's been more submissive and has lowered her head a few times this week. Funny thing is if she notices me, she'll move.

First time I put them together Cole did snap at her but he mostly panicked if he got too close. I think he's finally over that now.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

no worries. 
you were talking about lowering heads and being submissive (something that they can only do when in proximity of each other)--this should not be done until you are putting them together, for the same reason as above.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I see. 

She's actually done this regardless of if she can see him or not. Same with showing her stripes.

Myra has actually filled out to a point where I sort of forgot what she looked like when she was at her normal weight. Based on that, I'm assuming she's carrying a large number eggs.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

what's preventing you from putting them together then?


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Had to do a water change and ran into a problem with the air pump and sponge filter. Nothing serious... Took it to an aquarium store so it's fine now.

Also the eight gallon tank I got from storage didn't work out so I had to change my set up. Will post photos this weekend.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

*Home Improvement*

And here's my tank set up...

The original one I planned to use didn't work out so I tried another option... Found an 8 gallon storage container at Target. Water level is at 4 1/2 inches. There is a thermometer in there, just not in this snap shot.

Just need to add some more silk plants, the fish and put the lid on it.









Should I be concerned that sponge filter floats?


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh, I forgot, should I add something for Cole to build the bubble nest under?

The others he's built are usually against glass but don't hold up after a while.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

try a styrofoam cup cut in half and taped to the side of the tank with duct tape or packing tape. My betta boy loved this and built a sturdy nest under one. 
Looks like this


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh ok. I don't have any syrofoam cups, would a plastic lid from a can of coffee work?

By the way what do you think of my set up?

Not sure if I should be concerned about the sponge filter floating.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

the sponge filter can be secured with a suction cup if you have one. 

As long as you secure the coffee lid to the side of the tank so it doesn't float around it should work, but you will need to make sure it provides enough access to air for poppa to suck in and blow out to make his bubbles and for the fry to breathe from when they hatch. The cup provides a large air space, so something similar will work. I have also seen a piece of foam hollowed out to create a similar shape to a half cup, almond or oak leaves, half a plastic cup (with the edges filed down to make them smoothed) and other similar things used with success.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I'll have to go out and get a suction cup for the filter. It just sits in the corner and doesn't drift around at all. You brought up a good point I think the coffee can lid might be too flat now I've actually looked at it but then again I have seen someone else use one.

I'll see if I can find something else.

I'm really glad how the set up turned out.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

to be sure she's veil, count the rays on her tail. If she has two, veil. 4+ and she's delta. As for the spawn, veil is a very dominant gene. First generation, all fry might land up being veil with better looking finnage then the usual veil. Second generation (siblings bred together) you will have a mix of veil, delta and etc


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, a few members mentioned something similar. One even told me she was a veil just by looking at her. I'm not familiar with counting the rays on a betta's tail.

Oh, did you see the photo of my tank set up?

I posted it last night.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

nice setup. Your tank is exactly the same as mine , it could use a little more plants though. My one female i might pull out because of how rough its getting, the other female, Grape, is actually starting to approach the nest. And i'd recommend Meth Blue...not too much though


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

and regarding tail type, the shape of the tail isnt always accurate. But its VERY obvious on a halfmoon. Two of my females when i first got them looked like veils because they had a low spread and looked rounded. One thing i did notice was how many rays they had and how long the anal fins are. Now, they have matured a little and look like proper deltas


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I plan to get some more silk plants to add to it and something for my male to build a bubble nest under. I'm sort of on the fence about using a coffee can lid since it seems too flat but by the same token I've seen one used in a tank almost like mine. I've also heard of syrofoam cups work well.

What do you use for your fish?

Hope it works out for your female.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

TealHoundogg said:


> Thanks. I'll have to go out and get a suction cup for the filter. It just sits in the corner and doesn't drift around at all. You brought up a good point I think the coffee can lid might be too flat now I've actually looked at it but then again I have seen someone else use one.
> 
> I'll see if I can find something else.
> 
> I'm really glad how the set up turned out.


The set up looks fabulous. Having a filter from the start is very smart. And the fake plants are great because they clean easily. I also use a tub, mine is 5 gallons. I will have a 15 gall grow out tank since the last fish in my 15 gal passed away a few days ago. I need to get that sucker cleaned and serialized ASAP! 

Good luck, can't wait to see how it goes for you. :-D


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

i use a styrofoam cup..works quite nicely. Anything the betta can anchor a nest on will work...my one male actually destroyed his own nest under the cup and built it over, and around a plant..my other male moved the cup with his head lol. I guess if they like it, they'll use it


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

April R said:


> The set up looks fabulous. Having a filter from the start is very smart. And the fake plants are great because they clean easily. I also use a tub, mine is 5 gallons. I will have a 15 gall grow out tank since the last fish in my 15 gal passed away a few days ago. I need to get that sucker cleaned and serialized ASAP!
> 
> Good luck, can't wait to see how it goes for you. :-D


Thanks, sorry about your fish. Got the filter for a song off of ebay. The tub was a storage container I picked up at Target. Holds eight gallons.



sharkettelaw1 said:


> i use a styrofoam cup..works quite nicely. Anything the betta can anchor a nest on will work...my one male actually destroyed his own nest under the cup and built it over, and around a plant..my other male moved the cup with his head lol. I guess if they like it, they'll use it


I'll make a note of that. Wow that's funny about your fish though I've heard of males sometimes moving the nest to a different location. It's probably for security reasons. Mine seems to put his in the left hand corner.

I've noticed some males build thick nests and others don't. Cole is the type where his is somewhat thick but gets thinner when he adds on to it.

Hope that won't be a problem.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Decided to return the breeding box I got at Petco, I thought it was too big at first but the drawback is it doesn't float. Tried putting it in a few times but it won't work. Will use a small glass fish bowl instead and exchange the box for some silk plants.


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## emuted (Apr 24, 2014)

Hi Teal,

I've read through your spawn log, all 10 pages of it.. :-D

I must say, i think you are thinking way too much... its not so much of a bad thing but you can never really know what the fishes are really thinking about. So in my opinion, just put them together and let nature takes its course. Especially since you have taken such good care of them for so long.

As for your breeding tank.. seems like a good setup and size. Don't worry about the sponge filter floating, it will sink once it has absorb enough water to weigh it down.

though i wouldnt recommend switching the filter on when they are in the process of spawning, as the water movement will disturb the bubble nest making it unstable.

maybe u could get another plant in another corner and it should be enough hiding places for your little lady.

some bettas can build solid bubble nests without the help of any objects, so dont worry too much about it. Mine made his bubble nest among the leaves of a plant i placed in the tank, instead of the IAL i provided for him.

Good luck and I hope these couple get at it soon!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks and I get what you're saying... some of my posts were just from being nervous and wanting to make sure I was on the right track. The breeding box I bought won't work so I plan to exchange it for some silk plants. That'll be helpful for Myra.

Thanks for the heads up about the filter, I'll make sure to leave it unplugged. Guess I'll switch it on once the fry are swimming on their own.

I have a video clip of Cole and Myra I posted on YouTube.

Guess who came to Dinner?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLI0X7pGgMk


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

Do you have a seperate tank for breeding? You don't want rocks in your breeding tank it will make it hard for you male to pick up fallen eggs.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I do have a breeding tank set up. The video wasn't shot there.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Got some extra silk plants, but the heater didn't work out. I think the wattage was too high. Will be running out to exchange it for a lower watt.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Batting a thousand, left the heater(the new one) running for 12 hours and the temp hasn't changed at all.

Will give it another try today if not then I'll have to swap it for a 50 watt but it should work.

Oy, this is frustrating!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I think I got it fixed, now it's getting warm. But one thing.

I noticed a burnt rubber smell. Took out the new silk plants I checked them. Three had that new out of the package smell. My guess is the smell might be from the suction cups holding the heater since they're made of rubber has that new car smell when I took the heater out of the package yesterday.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Nevermind about the burnt rubber got that fixed. Still waiting on the heater to warm up. It's been slow, if the temp doesn't change I'm swapping it for a 50 watt. 

Kind of nerve wracking for me right now.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Took the heater back and had it tested. Anyway... it did warm up in a bucket the store used. Had it running all day and so far it's only gotten up to 79 degrees, same temp as the room. Oy... will be taking this back... again.

Will be getting another brand from a different store.

This has been so frustrating.

Aside from that, Cole's latest bubble nest attempt is looking good. Myra's definitely more submissive now, she doesn't flare at me. Should I be worried that her vertical stripes have faded? by that I mean they're not as bold as they were last week. She still seems to be carrying a few eggs.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

Nope. Stripes are not a necessity


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, that's good to know. The heater scenario has been a real drag though since I've had it running pretty much all day and it still hasn't reached 80 degrees.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

The heater should say what tank size to use for.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

It's a 25 watt and heats up to seven gallons. My set up is just one gallon over so it should work.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

should have used a 50 watt. And the submersible type. If it gets too warm you'd at least be able to turn it down, or the heater automatically switches off once the tank is the right temp. Got 50 watts in all my tanks cause they're excellent quality except for 2 tanks. One has 200 watts, the other is 15 gal and has 100 watts(quality is so bad it barely gets past 30)


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

The one I have is the submersible type. I did start out with a 50 watt but it got too hot. If anyone has any brands they can recommend, I'm all ears. Something in $20 range is I all I can afford at the moment.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Checked it the morning and it works!

Whoo-hoo!


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

good deal!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I'm glad it works, that thing was becoming a major headache. Now I just need to do a water change and get my bettas used to the tank water. I probably won't release them until friday depending on how things go, plus I want to be at home in case I need to separate them.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Not a whole lot to say right now. Will be adding fresh water to my tank set up and then get Cole and Myra used to the water once it's reached 80 degrees. The heater's a keeper, just slow about heating up but that's no big deal.

Will upload some photos and videos once they've settled in. 

Just making sure I get this right, the heater would have to stay plugged in once the eggs are in the nest, right?

I only ask because when I unplug it the temp goes back down to 79 within an hour or so .


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

TealHoundogg said:


> Just making sure I get this right, the heater would have to stay plugged in once the eggs are in the nest, right?
> 
> I only ask because when I unplug it the temp goes back down to 79 within an hour or so .


this... i have never heard of before, and if your heater truly acts in a manner in which you must unplug it manually to turn off the heat is not a heater worth buying...

the heater has a built in thermostat that warns it to turn off after reaching a threshold. it stays off until the water is cool enough to be heated again. the only problem is that sometimes, thermostats are miscalibrated, which is why you have an independent thermometer to give you readings. you do not need to plug and then unplug a heater.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

It does have a thermostat and shuts off on it's own. I only unplugged it when I wasn't testing it and checking temporature. No fish were in my set up when I was doing this. I do have a thermometer and it usually stays around 80 to 81 when the heater is plugged in and has been left on overnight.

Hope this clears things up.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well, got the tank all set up. Water's been changed, rearranged the silk plants, temp is at 80 degrees. I even found something for Cole to build a bubble nest under.


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## BettaGeek (Feb 5, 2014)

I love those colors! Can't wait to see the results! Our first spawn was royal blue + steel blue CTxCT and I had a vast variety of both and a couple looked like your female. I think you may get similar results. but who knows! ? Good luck either way!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I'm curious to see what colors and markings I'll end up with.

Nervous but excited at the same time.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Since Cole has butterfly markings which is a variation of marble, I'm hoping to end up with offspring similar to this female Koi since Koi bettas are also a variety of marble. Myra had some cambodian sisters and the other day I saw a cambodian male with a red patch on his forehead like a koi. Though from what I've been told the fry could end up being steel, metallic, partial dragon, turquoise with some marble and butterfly markings.

Blue Koi female

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1403287236

Should be interesting.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

have you started spawning yet?


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I'll probably put them together sometime this weekend. I changed the water in my tank set up and rearranged a few things. My biggest problem was getting the heater to stay between 80 to 81 degrees, but that's been taken care of. It was a major headache. Will post how things go.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

No need for such needle like precision. Spawning is favorable in temps from 82-85


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. The problem I had with the water was the temperature was usually around the mid 70s and felt like ice, once I got the heater problem fixed that was it.

I'll be uploading a new photo of my tank set up later today.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Updated photo of tank set up. Added more silk plants and a place for Cole to build a bubble nest.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

where's the heater? submersible heaters need to be fully submerged in order to function properly. otherwise you can have a short-circuit at best and a fire at worst. you should introduce the male in the tank already so he can set up dominance.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

The heater is in the back. the sponge filter is just blocking the view. It's submersible but according to the instructions it says to keep it above the water line marked on the side. Thanks for the heads up.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

this is a submersible heater:









this one isnt:









if yours looks like the top one, there is no reason to fully submerge it. in fact it is better if you did as it would allow the water to be heated uniformly rather than just one side.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh, ok. The guy at the store did say it was submersible. Though I sort of got confused with the instructions.

This is the heater I have:

Marina 25 watt

http://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Marina-Submersible-Aquarium-25-watt/dp/B00AFELT92/ref=cm_cd_al_qh_dp_t


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Not all submersible heaters are supposed to be fully submerged. Some warn to not fully submerge, but it should say on the package if it is fully submersible. The Aqueon recommends to keep it vertical but:

"Install heater in water filled aquarium. The heater works best when installed in the vertical position. The installation of the heater in this position requires that the aquarium must maintain a level above the minimum water level line on the heater. The heater can be installed in the horizontal position. The installation of the heater in this position requires that it be fully submerged at all times."


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Your Fluval can lay on its side because it has the seal to keep water out, not all adjustable heaters have that.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Really, good to know. Mine is actually Marina brand, for some reason amazon has it listed as fluval marina.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No, on the fluval page it says it has the seal and says that you can lay it on its side horizontally.

EDIT: wait....now I'm confused, I totally read it was safe for horizontal use on that page and now I can't find it!

EDIT#2: Oh I found it, in the Q&A section: "it has a minimum water line, but the entire unit can be submerged."


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

*scratches head*

The instructions that came with it said to keep the heater above the water line.

Which is marked on the glass.

It did fall in the water by accident when I first installed it but I managed to set it up right so it works fine.

The suction cups are pain because they pop off the side once in a while.

On another note, I've been teaching Myra to eat bloodworms from my finger tip(I wash my hands before and afterwards). I've started but she's learning quick.

I might be going out of town next month(family related trip) reason why I say might is because the whole thing is up in the air at this point. If I do go I'll have to post pone the spawn attempt until I get back.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What does the line say? Anything at all? Are you sure it's Max and not Min?

lol, I'm not a cautious fish keeper at all; I never wash my hands before sticking them in the tank although occasionally I will afterwards :dunno: but, no need to follow my example ;-) I always just find it funny how cautious some people can be, not you but just in general I've seen some people do crazy things sometimes whether they know it or not ^_^


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

You're right it's max. The water in my tank set up is around 4 inches. I just wash my hands as a precaution, don't want my bettas getting sick.

Myra's the only betta I have who will actually eat from my finger tip, Cole... not so much.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

Your being to picky lol keep your heater on do not turn it off just because it hits the temp they are suppose to be controled heating them self.. Next your conditioning your female to long she is going to lose interest and not be able to breed.. Get your male in the tank buy a styro foam cups there like 1.00 at the store for a ton of them if myra is still nice and fat put her in the tank with Cole but in a jar or seomthing see if she shows her mating stripes, if she does let her loose and let nature take its course


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks for the heads up. I've wrapped re-conditioning them. If you look at the photo in my previous post, I did find something for Cole to build a nest under. I only unplugged the heater back when I was still testing it, now I just leave it plugged in and it does shut off automatically. Trust me, I would put them together this week but it looks like I might have to postpone this spawn attempt since I'll probably be going out of town next month.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

Awe what a shame! I was looking forward to seeing them! I spawned Lightning and Wish again! I keep him feed a full belly!! They just spawned today!! Its hard reading the temp but i'm thinking the tank temp is about 79-80


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Yeah, I know, same here. Hope things work out with Lightning and Wish.

Still, I'd rather try a spawn attempt when I know I'll be home to care for the fry. 
I've read cases where people had their friend or relative watch their fish or some other pet while they were out of town and it ended up being a disaster.

Sort of like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zw_O-rRYXY


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well, the jury reached a verdict, I will be postponing the second breeding attempt since I'll be out of town sometime next month. Allowed Cole and Myra to see each other and he flared, swam around and showed off his fins. She watched but didn't really flare back this time, she did lower her head and showed her stripes. I think she would have followed him around if they weren't separated.

Based on that, hopefully my next attempt will work out. I think they're just glad to see each other again after being isolated.

I'd rather try a spawn attempt when I know I'll be home to care for the fry. 
I've read cases where people had a friend or relative watch their fish or some other pet while they were out of town and it ended up being a disaster.

Sort of like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zw_O-rRYXY


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I'll be putting Ghost and Mel together on monday. I'm off mon-tuesday so I can be there to seperate if need be.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Hope it works out for you. Have you checked out the photos and video of my bettas?


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

yup! They are beautiful!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I'm curious to see what colors I'll end up with.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

me too


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well from what I've been told, based on Cole and Myra's colors and markings, their sons and daughters could end up having with steel and metallic colors as well as partial dragon, marble and butterfly markings.

Myra had a few cambodian sisters but I don't know if she carries those genes.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

*Always have a back up plan...*

I may have spoke too soon, there may still be a way I can breed Cole and Myra so I wouldn't have to hold off waiting until next month. Will know for sure by tomorrow.

I'd love if one of their sons or daughters ends up with markings like this guy. Cole is a dragon with butterfly markings which is a variation of marble so...if he carries those genes, it could happen.

Marble dragon

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1403271009


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

He's pretty! Hope you get to do it before you leave! I'm posting pics of Jorah now on my thread


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Same here. I'd love to have a marble from this spawn.

I looked up turquoise colored bettas with marble markings as well as dragon and butterflies. They are gorgous fish! 

Basically from what I've seen, chances are a few of Cole and Myra's offspring will end up with her color but have partial dragon or butterfly markings like him.

This is probably what they'll end up looking like in terms of colors and markings:


Turquoise/metallic marble with butterfly markings

http://bjtbettas.blogspot.com/2014/01/f2and-so-ctpk-search-goes-on.html

Partial dragon

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turquoise-B...-Betta-3-5-months-old-Very-Nice-/221421311558


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Pretty!! If you werent so far away, I'd ask for a few


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks for the interest. I've never shipped fish, or any live animal for that matter. I'd be too nervous about a possible DOA incident.

Though I suppose I could ask an employee at an aquarium store about shipping live bettas.

You looking for a certain color or markings?

Did you want mostly females or a mix(brothers and sisters)

Since Cole is a delta and Myra is a veiltail, their offspring will most likely be veiltails with a few roundtails mixed in and maybe a delta or two.

Here's two examples of a roundtail betta. It's a variety of veiltail but I haven't seen them in pet stores or on aquabid. They are unique looking fish.

Copper

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/leslie786/100_6750.jpg

Blacklace

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s219/the_piggy/MRoundtailblacklacebetta.jpg


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Not sure what I want yet. Depends all on what I get out of my two spawns


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh, ok, just let me know.

I plan to keep one female and then turn the rest over to an aquarium store.

I'll more than likely breed my bettas again after I get back from my trip so depending on how your spawns go, I can put you on a waiting list for the next one.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Alrighty  I'll keep you posted. I'm thinking about putting together ghost and Mel tomorrow instead of monday


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Sounds good. Hope it works out for you.

I'm curious to see what colors and markings I'll end up with from this spawn.

Found out roundtails are actually a variety of veiltails. Funny thing is Cole was actually labeled as a halfmoon but he's really a delta from a breeder in Florida.

Myra is my first female betta, she actually came from a Thailand breeder with a few of her sisters. Some of them were standard turquoise like her, one was blue and the rest were cambodian. So either one of her parents had cambodian markings or she has a mixed bloodline. I have no idea what Cole's parents and siblings look like. More than likely, one of them was a dragon betta and the other probably had butterfly or marble markings.

If that's the case, their offspring will probably have some nice colors and markings. I'm hoping they also get Cole and Myra's mild temperament.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I want to see pictures. I'm not sure where the bettas I have actually came from. all four of them are petsmart bettas. Ive been lucky to get some pretty ones though. and some very good tempered ones at that.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I don't have any photos of Myra's siblings, both she and Cole came from aquarium stores but I was able to find out they came from breeders. 

Sorry about that.

If they do have a spawn, I will post photos. 

Cole also has parti eyes, half blue, half gold. I've been told this can happen with bettas that have marble markings in their genes. Myra's eyes are amber, so their fry will probably have blue, amber, bi or parti color eyes.

One person on here bought a bi-eyed betta off aquabid. One eye was blue and the other was brown. Very cool.

Myra was actually in a tank with her sisters when I got her. She was also small and according to the store employee they were the most colorful female bettas they had in stock at that time. So, more than likely, her parents were bred for color.

It's not uncommon for breeders to put certain bettas together to get certain colors, markings or fins.

I'm hoping with this spawn to get a few with marble and butterfly markings that have calm temperaments.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Ghost has brown on top and blue on the bottom. His eyes are cut in half. It's cool. Mel has one eye thats cut in half. the other is a solid color. and Dany has orange eyes.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Sounds like your boys are parti-eyed. It usually happens with bettas that carry marble genes. Myra had a sister who was blind but she didn't seem to miss anything.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Yup! so we shall see what I get


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Yeah, I'm curious about what results I end up with too.

I actually came across some videos of betta farms in Thailand. A lot of the fish look like the ones on aquabid. The ones from Petco come from a vendor in Japan. I think Petsmart bettas are imported too. 

Cole was 6 months when I got him so I don't know if he fathered any spawns since the minimun age range for breeding bettas is around 3 months old, but looking at the way Cole panicked when he got too close to Myra my guess is the only females he's probably been around were his sisters and they were more than likely separated when they got older. 

Myra was 2 months old when I brought her home so she's never been a mother before.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I know my bettas were all virggins when I got them. None of them looked any older than 3 moa. Ghost and Mel have bee bred once with each other, to no success.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well, maybe this time it'll work, at least they know each other now.

Cole and Myra have seen each other enough times so they recognize one another. Cole does flare at her and shows off his fins but not in an aggressive way, she usually reacts by showing the vertical stripes on her sides. Totally normal. 

If I am able to try another breeding attempt, I think this time would be successful.

Will know by tomorrow if I'll be able to go through with it or postpone the whole thing until I get back from going out of town.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Hopefully. We shall see tomorrow if Ghost decides to be a good dad this time


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Let's hope so. I've heard too many cases of males who pulled the plug. One breeder on another site had a handsome male that was white with black markings, but he wasn't the best dad either.

Sometimes it takes them a while to get the hang of it. 

One time I came home and saw Cole had built a rather large bubble nest. I'm looking at him thinking: "Where did you find the time to work on this?"


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

haha yeah they can build some impressive nests. Dragon always built some rather large ones. He covred 60% of the surface of his 10 gallon when I still had him.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Wow, that's amazing. Cole builds his in shifts. Starts off with a few small bubbles then the by the end day, it's stretched along the glass. First time I put he and Myra together they stared at each other. It went sort of like this:

Cole: "Hey,"

Myra: "Hi..."

(silence)

It's changed since then. Last night he actually slept on the side where she was. Even though they're separated. I thought it was really sweet. Didn't bother her at all.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

awwwww thats adorable!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I thought so too, there's one breeder on this site who raises wild bettas. The pairs she has aren't agressive and live together, they also stay with their fry. 

I've seen a video on youtube of a halfmoon betta living with a female. They even ate together. Just depends on the personality of the fish.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Thats how Dany and Dragon were. They lioved together. Slept together in the hollow tree everyday. It was adorable


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's nice. There are some animals who have one mate for life and they won't find another unless their spouse passes away. I'm starting to believe bettas fall in that category to a certain degree. It's been proven they're intelligent fish and love to interact with their owners.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Yeah, I think Dany is starting to get over Dragon. She seems to be responsive to Jorah. She just sits in her jar and watches him build his nest. He works on it and then comes up to her side and flares at her and goes right back to his nest


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's funny. Might want to record that if you have a camera with that feature. Cole and Myra have flared each other before but now if he flares, she just stares at him. She's been really submissive around him, so I think if I'm able to put them together, this spawn attempt would be successful.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I think that's going to be the case with Jorah and Dany. They seem to get along fairly well so far


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

That's good, I know one member here who has a betta she tried to breed but the fish had an alpha female personality so it wasn't easy. At least bettas aren't as aggressive as Oscars.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Oscars are just flat out mean! lol


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

So I've heard. I actually saw two bettas in a tank together at a Petco once. I'm guessing they were siblings because they were around the same age and had similar colors. I'm the sort of person who'd buy both just so they could stay together.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Haha same


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Agreed. I read about one person here who had a female betta that was stressed out from living alone, after putting her in a tank with other females, she was fine.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

When I'm done breeding I'm gonna put my girls back in the 10 gallon with their guppy friends. The boys are too aggressive for the guppies. They are mellow, But I dont trust them enough yet to not kill my gups


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Probably not a bad idea. I've heard of bettas who actually eat the shrimp some owners put in their tanks.

Just depends on the fish, some don't mess with the shrimp at all but bettas are carnivores so if looks like food, smells like food... well, you can guess the rest.

I've seen corries(catfish) that get along nicely with female bettas, one perk is they eat leftover food.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Had a slight delay, will know for sure by tomorrow if I can go through with the 2nd spawn attempt.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I have both of my pairs together now. Jorah and Dany In their tank and Ghost and Mel in theirs. Both males have been furiously working on their nests and I hope to have some spawing tonight or tomorrow


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Let's hope it works out.

Well, I'll have the final verdict on Monday about if I can go through with a second spawn attempt. That's when I'll be able to talk with the aquarium store owner into making some sort of deal.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Awesome, Hope it works out


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Same here, I usually try to save my top priority projects for the summer and breeding my bettas is on my list.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I plan on breeding these two and working on getting my 75 gallon set up. Going to build the stand and hood for it when I get time. It's going to be for my goldfish


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Nice...

If this spawn attempt is successful I'll definitely breed Cole and Myra again, probably sometime later in the summer.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I love baby everything. Baby fish are just the cutest!!!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Baby animals are hard to resist, same goes for looking at bettas at Petco.

I can't go into Petco without stopping to look at the bettas on the shelf.

At one point I really wanted to get a baby betta but since I have Cole and Myra I can try raising my own.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

I know! I have to look at the fish everytime I'm in a pet store to get dog and rabbit food lol


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

It can be addicting. My sister though is really doubtful that this spawn attempt will actually be successful. I try not to dwell on it since I've done the research and it isn't exactly an easy task. Still, I'm willing to try and from hat I've read the efforts are worth it and can be really rewarding.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

yup john is doubtful too but I at least want to try again


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well, that's all you can do. You won't know unless you try. I'll admit I'm nervous and on the edge of my seat but excited at the same time.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

SAame here!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

One thing about if you try one time, you learn from trial and error and know what to look for the next time. I'm hoping to use this spawn attempt as learning experience.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

me too. I have learned a few things since I tried with Ghost and Mel last time


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Hello TealHoundogg. I have moved your Betta spawn thread to "Journals" as it currently is no longer a discussion about an actual spawn. 
We try to keep the Spawn log area strictly for documenting the pair, the spawn and it's fry. 
You are more than welcome to start a new spawn thread should you breed your Betta's again. 
Keep us posted!!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, sorry about that. Things didn't go exactly as planned but I plan to try again so I'll start a new log when I do.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

spawning is one of those things that you can research and research, but even if you believe you are fully prepared, you arent (especially if for the first time). kinda like getting married, or having a kid. breeding bettas is more often than not a trial by error process. you will learn that certain techniques fare well for certain breeders while end in disaster for others. you will learn how to maintain sustainable cultures while crashing them. you will learn how often to feed the fry while starving or overfeeding them. it requires a surprising amount of intuition and adaptability whenever the situation demands.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I've got a rough idea of what to expect and got the supplies, for me it's just a matter of being able to put my pair together and seeing how things turn out. Only thing holding me back right now is I'm probably going out of town so I may have to postpone this attempt unless I'm able to make a deal with an aquarium store owner I know. 

Just for reference, how long is the recommended wait time before trying another spawn. By that I mean, if the pair has been bred once how long would a person have to wait before working on a second batch?


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## emuted (Apr 24, 2014)

amphirion said:


> spawning is one of those things that you can research and research, but even if you believe you are fully prepared, you arent (especially if for the first time). kinda like getting married, or having a kid. breeding bettas is more often than not a trial by error process. you will learn that certain techniques fare well for certain breeders while end in disaster for others. you will learn how to maintain sustainable cultures while crashing them. you will learn how often to feed the fry while starving or overfeeding them. it requires a surprising amount of intuition and adaptability whenever the situation demands.


Very well said


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## emuted (Apr 24, 2014)

TealHoundogg said:


> Thanks. I've got a rough idea of what to expect and got the supplies, for me it's just a matter of being able to put my pair together and seeing how things turn out. Only thing holding me back right now is I'm probably going out of town so I may have to postpone this attempt unless I'm able to make a deal with an aquarium store owner I know.
> 
> Just for reference, how long is the recommended wait time before trying another spawn. By that I mean, if the pair has been bred once how long would a person have to wait before working on a second batch?


Most would say about 2 weeks, but i think it really depends on the couple's first attempt at breeding, especially on the extent of their injuries if any. Allow them ample time to recover, nourish them again before letting them have a second go.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

Teal what happen with your first spawn attempt was she not ready.? They recommend two weeks to refresh the male and female personally I look at how the mom and dad look. If mom is beat up badly then let her heal min 2 weeks and see how she looks in the mean time clean the breeding tank and start conditioning them both again. If mom looks good just give it about a week again clean the breeding tank feed live foods if you have them(my very very very first breed long ago i did blood worms and had a successful batch)


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

The first time I tried they mostly stared at each other. Cole also panicked if he got too close or snapped at Myra. I don't remember her showing her stripes like she does now. I have given them frozen blood worms. Both are in condition to breed and have shown interest in each other, but because I'll be out of town next month, I might have to post pone it until I get back unless I'm able to make some sort of deal with an aquarium store owner I know.


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## ASmith1985 (May 12, 2014)

If she dont show the up and down stripes and fat then she isnt ready to breed example in this pic. if her stripes are the other way they are stress stripes and she is scared and or not ready.

http://gyazo.com/0048ca01ab3379433b744baa792ca7be


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, she has been showing the vertical stripes and has filled out to a point where she's obviously carrying quite a few eggs.

Another thing is she's been more submissive than usual which makes me think if I'm able to put she and Cole together, this attempt would work.

He's actually flared and showed off his fins and she reacts by showing her stripes.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Came to an agreement with a fish store owner I know.

Second spawn attempt can go through!


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

Dany died  so I cant get my pretty half sun betta fry  I miss my dany she was a fun little betta.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

TealHoundogg said:


> Came to an agreement with a fish store owner I know.
> 
> Second spawn attempt can go through!


 keep me posted!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Will do. I'll probably start a new spawn log if all goes well, for now I'll just use this for minor updates.

I'm on cloud nine.


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## BettaGeek (Feb 5, 2014)

Just curious....but is the store owner giving you store credit?? Is it a locally owned or chain like Petsmart?


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## Pandanke (Jun 16, 2014)

I imagine it must be a locally owned, the Petsmart and Petco in my area at least, wont accept them.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

BettaGeek said:


> Just curious....but is the store owner giving you store credit?? Is it a locally owned or chain like Petsmart?


I'm not sure, more than likely it probably won't be store credit. It's a locally owned independant store. They sell mostly salt water fish, reptiles and a few bettas. I'd never turn my fish over to a chain pet store. The first aquarium store I went to would only give me a store credit, but when I went to this place he offered to buy as many fry as I get out of this spawn.



Pandanke said:


> I imagine it must be a locally owned, the Petsmart and Petco in my area at least, wont accept them.


 Yes, it is. Trust me it's not a Petstore or Petsmart.

The Petco and Petsmart near me, don't really seem to care for their bettas. Told the manager at one Petco that I had seen bettas with fin rot. Turns when they got their latest shipment at the time, they had a fin rot outbreak which came from those fish.

I don't know why they weren't sent back or at least treated until they were well enough to go on the shelf.

I wouldn't want Cole and Myra's sons and daughters to be put through that.


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

HEY!! I'm back! Mouth is still killing me and I can barely talk, but I figured I'd let you know I was still alive!  put Mel and Jorah together this week, i have them in a container outside, figrued i would give that a go. Theres been a rather large nest in there, So I beleive they have spawned, Just can't be sure until I see fry.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Sounds like things are going well. Sorry about your mouth. Oh, went to the fish store where I got Cole to pick up some frozen bloodworms and saw a female veiltail in a large vase with some mini cories(catfish) and an african dwarf frog. Turns out I could put them in with Myra. They had some Iberian newts too which can also live with female bettas. 

I've read bettas can live in a community tank but I wasn't sure considering Myra hasn't shared a living space since she was in a tank with her sisters. But she might like having some room mates. So that'll be something to consider.

The guy at the store threw in some free duck weed which I'll add to my breeding tank set up. That'll be good since the fry can feed off the infusoria for bit.

Though I plan to look up how make a homemade culture.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Just a progress report, starting yesterday, I discontinued isolating Cole and Myra.

Granted, their still separated but as for behavior, she's been showing her stripes and has been very submissive. Cole flares from time to time, swims in a 'S' shape and shows off his fins. He's been working on a thick bubble nest too.

Overall, it seems to be going well.

Will be putting them together this week.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

Yay, they seem more than ready! Try to resist the urge to mess with them too much after you introduce them. They may pay more attention to you than each other.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

I also agree with April's assessment. Sooner is better than later, like Tuesday at the latest. Also have you gotten your cultures running? Kinda pointless to build up anticipation for spawning and then having all the fry die on you 3 days after hatching....


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

April R said:


> Yay, they seem more than ready! Try to resist the urge to mess with them too much after you introduce them. They may pay more attention to you than each other.


Thanks, I try to watch from a distance, mostly because if I get too close, they notice.



amphirion said:


> I also agree with April's assessment. Sooner is better than later, like Tuesday at the latest. Also have you gotten your cultures running? Kinda pointless to build up anticipation for spawning and then having all the fry die on you 3 days after hatching....


Point taken. The owner of a local fish store I plan to turn the fry will be looking after Cole and Myra while I'm out of town, so they might have fry by the time I get back.

As for cultures, I decided to go with infosoria.(excuse my spelling). Between that and the Hikari brand first bites, I got it should hold the fry over for the first week, then I'll switch to baby brine shrimp. 

The only thing I'm confused with the infosoria is that it says to leave the jar where there is light and another tutorial said to leave it out in the sun.

The guy at the store who gave me the duck weed said infusoria will grow in the tank. So, I'll use that for now.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Infusoria is only a valid food option for the first 3 free swimming days--paramecium can only do so much-- sure there will be daphnia and copepods bit they don't become sustainable for a few weeks.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I see. So would you recommend daphnia after the first three days?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

3 species of daphnia available on the market. You want the smallest-- I want to say that it is D. picta, but double check. Otherwise it's bbs


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks. I know of a place that sells both frozen daphnia and baby brine shrimp. Though the store owner who will be watching my bettas while I'm out of town this week more than likely sells them.

I do have hikari brand first bites as a back up, so that should hold the fry over until I get back.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Fry need live food. You might get a few to accept frozen but expect significant losses. Frozen daphnia is too large for fry to consume until week 6.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Noted. Dropped Cole and Myra off at the aquarium store today, the owner says he'll try putting them together tomorrow since they'll have settled in by then.

He said he'd call me if they do spawn. I'll be sure to tell him to switch to an alternative if the first bites food doesn't work out.

I'm rather nervous about this spawn attempt, but I think it'll work out.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

I use vinegar eels. Bbs are hard for me to hatch and I still can't figure out how to harvest them without getting a bunch of eggs along with the hatched shrimp
I also use Spectrum Grow Fry Starter. My fry are only days old and they love it. The only draw back is the stuff is in powder form and stinks big time.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I would've tried vinegar eels but I keep reading they take a month to culture, unless I'm reading the wrong tutorial.

I think I've heard of Spectrum, I'll have to try that. Another good one I've heard of is instant baby brine shrimp. From what I hear, the stuff seems to... for lack of better words smell like Fisherman's Wharf but works well for betta fry, I've also come across frozen baby brine shrimp.

I'll have to find out if they carry spectrum. Will certainly give it a try. I hear boiled egg yolk works too.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

According to this tutorial (which also covers harvesting) vinegar eels take "a week or two." Looks like it's pretty easy, so even if you can't get them in place for this spawn, you should be able to set it up for the next. All you need are a couple of bottles (one with a long neck), apple cider, cotton balls, a turkey baster, water and the starter culture. Hope this link helps.

http://www.killies.com/Vinegareels.htm


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I'll look into it. I pretty much have everything on that list at home.

But would regular apple cider work or apple cider vinegar?

Also, my concern would be how to harvest the eels.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Apple vinegar cider and apple slices. You'll find the apple vinegar cider in baking and cooking aisle, not in drinks - it's a cooking ingredient.

The guide does tell you how to harvest them. It's pretty clever, actually - that's what the long neck bottle is for.

"Top*[Fill]* up the solution in the long neck bottle with the mother culture until the level just reaches the neck of the bottle. Tie a string to a piece of filter wool and stuff it down the neck until it just touches the surface of the solution. Now fill up the neck with clean water. The wool prevents the water from mixing with the vinegar solution.
Leave the bottle to stand for 24 hours. The eels will be starved of oxygen and swim their way through the filter wool to where the clean water is. Now all you have to do is siphon out the worms with a turkey baster and feed them to your fish."

Be sure to read all the way through the guide. The pictures are really good, and the instructions are nice and detailed.


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I do have some apple cider vinegar in the kitchen cabinet, just need to check the date on it.

The vinegar eel culture sounds easy, I'll certainly give it a try.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

The date doesnt matter. The worms feed on the fermenting vinegar and sugars in the juice or apple slices. It would be a good way to use up vinegar past its date. I have even mixed apple juice and white vinegar in a pinch. To speed up the culture you can also add a table spoon of white sugar or corn/caro syrup. You make your vinegar, sugar, and apple juice/apple slices mix and add it to an equal parts fresh water then add the starter culture. To harvest pour some of your culture after its sat for 2 weeks or more into a long necked bottle and fill it half way. Put the cotton or filter floss down the neck of the bottle leaving a couple inches of space between it and the top of the bottle then fill the bottle the rest of the way with freshwater. The next day if you hold the bottle with a light behind it you will see thousands of tiny clear worms swimming in the water at the top of the bottle. You will use an eye dropper or Turkey baster to suck up the eels then top off your bottle with more freshwater. You can keep harvesting them like this two to.three times a day for several weeks before you need to add more cultured eels to your harvest bottle


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I'll try that.

I've got white vinegar, sugar and some empty glass bottles. Just need an eyedropper, which I'll probably pick up at Walgreens if I can't one that I came across in the kitchen a while back.


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## April R (May 24, 2014)

TealHoundogg said:


> Thanks, I'll try that.
> 
> I've got white vinegar, sugar and some empty glass bottles. Just need an eyedropper, which I'll probably pick up at Walgreens if I can't one that I came across in the kitchen a while back.


K. Don't forget to add the apple juice or the apple slices! And good luck


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I'll make a note of it, thanks


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Hi all,

I'm back, last time I posted anything in this thread, I was on vacation. My trip went well, my second spawning attempt not so much... Found out from the guy at the store that was watching them while I was gone that during the second try, Cole got pretty aggressive and nipped Myra's tail. She's ok now, lost the weight she gained from conditioning and I think she absorbed some of her eggs. 

My hands are tied this month so I decided to give she and Cole a break. They still seem interested in each other since the other day, he was building another bubble nest, showing off his fins and they kept looking at each other.

I'll more than likely try again next month since I have family visiting from out of town next week. Also, Cole has pretty much lost his butterfly markings. Now his fins are mostly black and blue, I suppose that's just from him getting older and that butterflies are a variety of marble which I hear can change as a betta ages.

I really hope it works out this time.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Me, too! At least the break will give you plenty of time to get your cultures going!


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## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

True, I'll get things together for a vingar eel culture and infusoria.


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

How are the bettas?


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