# Advice rant



## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

Ok, I've discovered I have a new personal pet peeve. As well as an "I just don't understand!!!"
This is a betta forum. Where people come to ask advice about their bettas. Why, oh why, would someone come on here, ask advice about something, and then consistently refuse all advice, saying "oh well it's fine this way". 
I get that not all advice has to be followed. And that all must figure out what works best for their particular fish. But WHY post for advice, repeatedly, and then constantly ignore it! It drives me crazy! I just don't understand it and I hate not understanding things!
I just had to get that out of my system. It's been driving me bonkers for months now. Go about your daily scheduled programming.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink."


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes, but this is a horse coming up and begging for water, and then refusing to drink it!  Ok, and now I have an image of Mr Ed in my head


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

People like that REALLY come here hoping that the forum will tell them what they want to hear. They don't want any real advice. They just want approval. When they don't get it, that's typically when they go "Oh well, my way is better anyway."

Normally, this just makes me laugh at their arrogance, but in the case where another living creature is involved, it's sort of infuriating in cases where the animal's health is at great risk if nothing is changed.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

+1 to hrutan and Reccka
I have been recently frustrated with people. They come and beg for advice then then say blow off the advice they get. I do agree that people want to hear that they are doing everything right and that there is nothing to improve on and when they are told they are not doing that they get defensive.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

It only annoys me when the advice that is ignored is a basic care kind of need.

For example, I personally love to keep my bettas in 5 gallon tanks. It's a nice sized tank for cycling, I have room for live plants and a hiding place, enough live plants/decore can make a 5 gallon tank look awesome, ect. Therefore, if someone came here and asked what the best sized tank is for a betta, I would say 5 gallons.

Clearly that advice comes from personal bias and not fact. ^_^;

However, when someone comes and asks if their 0.5 gallon tank is good enough, we say no, and the person uses it anyway? I want to bang my head against a wall. I can relate to your pain about this pet peeve. That's why I give drive-by advice by typing what I want to say and then moving on. If I am ignored, I don't notice because I am not paying attention to the thread anymore. XD


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

A Person on another forum (won't name names) posted a tread bragging up a newly planted tank they horridly disctustiny overstocked. It was an devolve 4 (which is 2.3g ish in the front empty, planted with Over 10 finish that needed 20, 40, and 75g + of water volume and swim space. When they were told they needed to rectify it I merely and that it was nothing short of cruel to keep these fish in such tiny space (not even getting to the grotesque bioload issue they'd have, the person just waved it aside as "oh well I have expertise in salt water tanks, I can handle it".... The bettA in the tank was the only one that could live in that small of a safe, some of them would get as long as the tank when fl grown and need sever feet of swim room.
Sorry needed to vent that... But yeh definitely hate people asking for advice the. Won't accept it, or blatantly ignore rather obvious advice that anyone could tell just looking at it.


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

^Aqua, I'm sorry - but I got a little chuckle when reading your post. I've read many of your others; and have to ask - have you been drinking? new fish ebonics? 

I agree with you. If One approaches another asking a question with the expectation of gaining substantiated advice and positions One's self arrogantly, then One walks away an ignorant fool.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

I don't understand why people don't use the search function when they have a problem. How many "fin-rot" threads do we need clogging up this place?


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## imaal (Aug 10, 2014)

+1 to all the above, especially MikeG14! The problem seems to be especially prevalent and annoying recently.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah, I also find it extremely annoying.

I'll never understand why someone would value their own pride over the welfare of their animals. What kind of 'animal lover' does that make someone?


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> Yeah, I also find it extremely annoying.
> 
> I'll never understand why someone would value their own pride over the welfare of their animals. What kind of 'animal lover' does that make someone?


A self-proclaimed one. I don't understand it either. I've been known to be extremely stubborn but even I can't put my pride above my pets. They can't fend for themselves and they rely on me, so I do what I have to do. It's what any responsible owner should do.


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## imaal (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm wondering if, as MikeG suggests, we should more often politely recommend the use of the search link and not get engaged in all the resistance thrown back our way.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

IMO, what it boils down to is some people want validation ... even if they're wrong. And they will keep asking the same question in different ways (or threads) until they get it from someone equally uninformed.

I saw it all of the time when I was training dogs. "This will work, right?" "No, it won't." "Well, I'm going to try it anyway." "No, problem. I'll just charge you triple to fix the problem you create." 

I also think it stems from those who anthropomorphize their pets and deal with them as little people in fur coats or with scales instead of treating them like the critters they are.

I give my best advice based on what I've experienced or cite a source if I haven't. Then I go on because over the years I've learned you usually can't help such people.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

imaal said:


> I'm wondering if, as MikeG suggests, we should more often politely recommend the use of the search link and not get engaged in all the resistance thrown back our way.


I feel the same way but everyone thinks their situation is different or they are in a panic and don't think about using the search function. Also, as often demonstrated on this and other forums, some people can't or won't be polite. :-( It's easier to skip over those thread.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

I particularly dislike it when people put obviously fish-illness related threads in the main betta care forum, instead of the illness forum. If it's a grey area, like "could this condition lead to illness", it's one thing, but when it is "emergency, my fish is sick", I'm always left wondering how they didn't see the other forum.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

NorthernLights said:


> I particularly dislike it when people put obviously fish-illness related threads in the main betta care forum, instead of the illness forum. If it's a grey area, like "could this condition lead to illness", it's one thing, but when it is "emergency, my fish is sick", I'm always left wondering how they didn't see the other forum.


Now that's the truth! :roll:


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

NorthernLights said:


> I particularly dislike it when people put obviously fish-illness related threads in the main betta care forum, instead of the illness forum. If it's a grey area, like "could this condition lead to illness", it's one thing, but when it is "emergency, my fish is sick", I'm always left wondering how they didn't see the other forum.


Some people just go with the first link they see. I'll never get it, but people do. I feel like we could put Diseases and Emergencies(And a fin rot sticky) in big bright flashy letters and we'd still have this problem.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I also think it stems from those who anthropomorphize their pets and deal with them as little people in fur coats or with scales instead of treating them like the critters they are.


Heh, that's one that drives me crazy. If I anthropomorphize, I know it, and I laugh at myself. Because dogs aren't people, cats aren't people, fish aren't people. They have personalities and intelligence, yes. But their needs are not the same as ours, and assuming that they are little furry or scaly humans can lead to more harm than good.

Most of the time that just ends up being a basic animal health or behavioral issue. We think a cat needs a balanced diet, so we go buy one of those specialty foods rich in vegetables. The cat ends up terribly fat, because it's not meant to process that kind of food. We think it hurts the dog's feeling to discipline it. It jumps all over guests. We think it's a bad thing to neuter, because _surely _the pet will miss its man-bits, right? Maybe it just fathers a lot of unwanted puppies.

Maybe it runs loose, finds a couple of buddies, switches to pack mentality, and mauls someone, instead.

We think the betta needs a friend, and it kills the second fish we put in there.

As an _extreme _example, think about chimpanzee attacks. Someone gets a baby chimp as a pet, and trains it to not be afraid of humans. Then they dress it up in baby clothes, teach it to eat at the table, walk down the street holding hands...they take it everywhere, and treat it like a child.

...and then the chimp hits puberty. Maybe it's the owner that gets attacked, maybe it isn't. Someone gets their face, fingers, and genitals ripped off, LITERALLY, because the chimp owner treated their "baby" like it was a human, instead of the dangerous wild animal that it is. The owner cannot comprehend why their little baby would do such a terrible thing. _Surely_, the victim provoked him in some manner. _Surely_.

Primates throw poop in zoos because that's what they can get. If they could throw sticks and rocks, they most certainly would.


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

Oh goodness, I was starting to feel alone in my pet peeves. 
Hrutan, I do anthropomorphize my pets. My dog is convinced she is human, my cat is convinced she is a goddess, and my bettas, well, they are sweethearts...mostly. I even think they smile sometimes. 
However, I have learned that just as ppl's special needs need to be learned, so do my pets. My cat is a carnivore, my dog is an omnivore, even my bettas are mostly carnivorous. They have special needs. It's my job as their caretaker to LEARN them! It just drives me nuts when someone comes on here, asks "is this right?", is repeatedly told "no", and says "oh, well its right in my situation you don't know my situation, so i'll do it anyway". I want to scream. 
I come here for advice. In the beginning, i came here knowing NOTHING about bettas. I knew they were fish, and they went in water, and they needed food and water conditioner and...that was it. i know soooooo much more than I did then, but I still come here because i don't know it all. I likely never will.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I also think it stems from those who anthropomorphize their pets and deal with them as little people in fur coats or with scales instead of treating them like the critters they are.


I've got the opposite problem. I've already taught my grandson to get the ball out in the yard, just like my dogs. I'm working on get the rabbit with him. He's almost 2, pretty quick, and has good teeth.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

One who truly anthromorphize loses sight than an animal is an animal and is therefore amazed when one acts as such. This is what happened with those tragic Sea World accidents. People forgot Orca are going to act like Orca.

This is the inherent problem with anthromorphizing animals: You lose sight of their natural behavior. As the late, great Canine Behaviorist Bro. Job Michael Evans noted: Dogs are not people in little fur coats. Treat them as if they are and they will treat you like a dog. ... and not in a good way. ;-)

People think a dog trainer/behaviorist's critters would be little automatons. Our dogs sleep in the bed, on the sofa, eat people food (in moderation), etc. The difference is in our house these are privileges and not rights. People who truly anthromorphize give their critters "rights" and that is what leads to dominance issues, urinating on an owner's bed, not coming when called, etc.

And hrutan is absolutely spot on: Anthromorphizing can cause a lot of behavior and health issues if taken to the extreme. Prime examples are those who take delight in saying their Betta's behavior is because it's "mad" rather than investigating whether there's something wrong in its environment or with its health.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with cats thinking they're goddesses or dogs believing they're human as long as the human knows they're not. I spoil mine rotten and wouldn't have it any other way. ;-)

Hope that wasn't too much OT.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

tolak said:


> i've got the opposite problem. I've already taught my grandson to get the ball out in the yard, just like my dogs. I'm working on get the rabbit with him. He's almost 2, pretty quick, and has good teeth.


roflmao!


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## BlueLacee (Dec 8, 2013)

Me too, especially if it's something super obvious or envolves neglect.


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

What really bothers me is when its a critical situation (say someone putting a baby and adult betta together in far too small of a tank) and they continuously deny that it's about to blow up in their face and throw in too much human emotion ("Their in love!") to somehow make themselves feel like they are doing the right thing. And then they stop posting, and you just know that the worst as happened. You just feel terrible for the animals involved.

Not saying that anthropomorphizing is totally bad, it just needs to be done so with care and consideration for the true needs of the animals. I've done it with every pet I've owned. That includes dozens of chickens, many dogs, cats, fish, birds, etc. I didn't always get it right, but I tried to do my best for them and learn. And from that I've learned never to trust the advice of just one person. Research! Research! Research! 

In the end it comes down to _what you should do_ and _what you do_. Rarely are the two used together.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

Okay, I'm going to chime in here in favor of those who anthropomorphize….because I think it is overall a good thing.

There are folks that believe animals cannot think…because only humans think. There are folks who believe animals have no emotions, because that's a higher set of brain functions. There are folks who believe animals cannot feel pain, because again, higher brain functions.

Well, it's those collective attitudes that result in folk thinking it's fine to keep a betta in a tiny "tank", with filthy water, and no mental stimuli. It's those attitudes that lead to ideas like "why bother buying a medicine/tank/plant/decoration/water conditioner that costs more than the fish did?"

I am proud that I can say I have spent hundreds of dollars to keep proper fish medicine on hand, decorations for the tank to keep my fish healthy, supplies to keep the plants and fish growing well. I am proud to say I worry if my fish is happy and do what I can to make him happy and healthy.

…and that IS due to anthropomorphizing.


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

I hate ppl who say "it costs more than the fish did" but have no issues spending hundreds on a dog or cat they got for free. In fact, even if you get a dog for free, one still expects to spend money on food, toys, vet visits, flea med's, worming, etc. No one says "well I got the dog for free why should I take him to the vet?" Or at least, those kinds of ppl can be prosecuted under the law for being psycho.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

MikeG14 said:


> I don't understand why people don't use the search function when they have a problem. How many "fin-rot" threads do we need clogging up this place?


I actually don't mind those, a lot of those fin rot threads are fin biting and even some of those that are actually fin rot vary be severity, someone might be trying aquarium salt when meds are needed. I also rather someone ask because a self diagnosis might be wrong. Then we might get someone who keeps asking about curing an chronic illness when the condition is being caused by their maintenance. 

I however understand where you're coming from and I do appreciate those that take the time to do research but still want a second opinion. I know I'll be making posts when my little guy is sick even if I might know what it is.


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## countyrd419 (Apr 6, 2013)

I also noticed that a lot of the new betta fish owners don't know how to post pictures of their fish so that the more experience owners can help with a diagnoses. I think that a sticky note should be posted on this. I checked and I don't see one. If I am wrong let me know.


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

NorthernLights said:


> Okay, I'm going to chime in here in favor of those who anthropomorphize….because I think it is overall a good thing.
> 
> There are folks that believe animals cannot think…because only humans think. There are folks who believe animals have no emotions, because that's a higher set of brain functions. There are folks who believe animals cannot feel pain, because again, higher brain functions.
> 
> ...


That is exactly why I think that anthropomorphizing (to a certain degree) is great. You can treat your animals like family, while still caring for them like animals. 

The "just a ____". That is the one thing that absolutely drives me bonkers. Too many people have said it to me, next time will someone says it, I will say "you're just a human" and walk away.

My animals have, and will always be, family to me. They are my life.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I don't think that is anthromorphizing, really. There's a difference between having an understanding of your animal's needs, personality, and happiness, and imposing human needs and values on them.

If my cat pees on my shoes, I'm not going to think he's "mad at me for xyz," I am going to be taking him to the vet to be checked for a UTI...because that isn't normal and he might be in pain.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Agreed. I think there are unfeeling people, then there are people who recognise animals as being living sould with needs, then there are people who genuinely believe that their perfect baby understands what they say. 
My mom doesn't like when I say anything mean to the cat because I'll hurt his feelings. I'll say "no rascal you weigh more than 15lbs, no more treats fatty cat" (he should weigh 8-11) and mom will get very upset that I hurt his feelings. Then she will give him treats. That's why he's overweight, because she feeds him 8 or more cat treats a day (pounce treats)
She also feels the compulsive need to talk to the animals/fish/squirrels and when her boy marlin attacked a baby snail mom justified it with "marlin was just defending his favorite hiding spot, he was mad that the snail....." Or maybe he's a betta and you added a magical moving rock to his tank. 
I'll admit I think fish have feelings, but they're not self aware. They're smart, but I somehow doubt they have an imagination. I fall into the 2nd category, maybe 2.4


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

+1 The two above

To anthromorphize is to think of an animal as a human and disregard the fact it's an animal. To consider your pet a part of the family; to love your pet; to "spoil" your pet with treats and toys; to act responsibly toward your pet and its care and to keep it healthy these are not anthromorphizing.

To think your pet does something of which you don't approve because it is angry (like fin biting) is anthromorphizing. 

I had a friend whose dog lay down on the out-of-sight sits in Obedience trials. Do you know what she said _and believed_? "I feed her, I keep up with her shots, I spend all this time training her with her _AND LOOK WHAT SHE DOES TO ME_!" She always fed her dog half her dinner when they came out of the ring after the regular exercises and half after the stays. If the poor thing made a mistake, she wasn't fed. And do you know why? "Because I'm teaching her a disqualification means no supper." Now, that's true anthromorphizing! BTW, when my friend made a mistake that caused her dog to disqualify I told her I was sorry she had to skip dinner as we were going to her favorite restaurant. Never saw her withhold her dog's meals again. ;-)

Northernlights: I bet you don't buy meds and keep your animals healthy because you think of them as people and don't recognize they are animals. I'll bet you do it because you are a responsible, caring person who loves her pets and wants them treated as best they can be treated. At least that's how you seem to me.


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

" magical moving rock" that's priceless! 
I'm convinced my pets are largely better than ppl (except my husbands dog, she's sweet but dumb as a brick). My cat is a goddess who deigns to live with us, and my fish are tiny aquatic refugees. However, I'm not aquatic so I have to learn how to make them happy. I took them in, and now they are as much my responsibility as my human child or husband. I don't understand why get a pet (or feline deity or aquatic refugee) if you don't intend to learn it's needs.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

aselvarial said:


> <<snip>> This is a betta forum. Where people come to ask advice about their bettas. Why, oh why, would someone come on here, ask advice about something, and then consistently refuse all advice, saying "oh well it's fine this way". <<snip>>


I've been thinking about the above a lot and have come to realize that some people want permission to practice bad husbandry or validation for the bad husbandry they're already practicing.

They want to keep shrimp in a barely-planted aquarium; they want to keep male Betta splendens in a Sorority; they want to keep totally incompatible species in the same tank (often to the detriment of one species or the other); they don't believe the number of fish in a shoal is important (despite numerous studies to the contrary).

What I really consider dangerous is so many have already set up absolutely inappropriate habitats and, because they believe they've been "successful" (usually for less than a year) think they have the experience to recommend such to others!

Some people are more interested in disproving what studies and years of experience suggest is best than the long-term health of the creatures for which they have taken responsibility.

And that is why I think people ask for advice/input and then argue or go about doing what they intended in the first place: Validation for bad husbandry.

PS: Your peeve and people who buy a living creature to "test" their Betta and then laugh when it dies frustrate the hell out of me. ;-)


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I've been thinking about the above a lot and have come to realize that some people want permission to practice bad husbandry or validation for the bad husbandry they're already practicing.


The nail has been hit right on the head. Thank you!


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## BettaBeau (May 14, 2014)

+1 to what RussellTheShihTzu said. Very well written. The forum is tough, youngsters with their first bettas, adults remembering how they used to take care of bettas, newbies who got their first info from their LFS, and add to the mix a society that is now taught that being told "no" is practically bullying, and it makes it difficult to tell people that they are doing something that could harm their betta without making them feel slighted.


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## imaal (Aug 10, 2014)

+1 to BettaBeau and RussellTST. This forum is indeed tough. Add to this that bettas are a gateway fish at a time when good counsel from trained and committed salespersons is at a minimum. The late great Wm. T. Innes said it way back in 1933 and it is still true: "more than any other species, the betta launched the hobby in America in a big way." The difference is that back then the newbie received guidance at point of purchase; years later, this forum finds itself playing catch-up.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Agreed, if the staff were trained to demand larger tanks and cleanings, if companies weren't allowed to sell toxic food and decor, and if the bettas in petco weren't practically mass produced, yes there would still be people saying "look how smart I am, I have a .5g bowl, compliment me compliment me" but it would be less. I think half the meet the keeper threads I see now are basically "I got a fish, took it home, found out the care info I was told was totally wrong so I'll do my best to fix it but it may be a while"


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

I got no information at the beginning. And stupid stores sell those "betta cubes" like that's the desired size. Now that I know better, I cringe at those. I also think that part of the problem, and I know I encounter this, is people think a bigger tank is harder to maintain, when NOTHING is further from the truth! I spend as much time on Lir's little 2.5 gallon every week, as I spend on the 10 and the 20 combined! 
It's amazing that the stores that do put out information on care of bettas get it totally wrong. Most of their other pamphlets are more or less correct (i know, i've grabbed a random selection and then proceeded to investigate the information). 
I can definitely see why they are a gateway fish. They are so amazingly personable!


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## CopperBell (Sep 14, 2014)

I've seen this kind of thing happen in real life many times too. 

There's a Petco near me that I go to get some supplies from because its so close. Most of the fish staff is decently knowledgeable, surprisingly. I've seen customers who don't want to be told they will need any supplies other than a small, cheap tank, or some cute novelty thing; food, the fish and water conditioner(I've heard some people try and get away without that too). 

I've heard people get mad at the staff after asking for assistance on care because as has been stated, they want validation that their "easy and cheap" way is fine. They just want to go up to the staff, tell them what they're getting or propose it and get an "Oh, that's cute, good job, they'll be happy!" They want to feel smart with what they picked out themselves. They don't want to be told they need more or that adorable decoration will injure the fish.

I've spoken to the staff before and many of them tell me it's hard to deal with these people when so many things around them(false articles online, novelty tanks that are even in the store, etc) tell the customers that keeping their pet in a tiny tank with weekly(or less) water changes is ok. They've even used the fact the tanks are in the store against them(and me). There is so much false info out there and many sources treat it like it's totally cool and desirable. It's a hard thing to break when money is involved. 

One of the people there told me she was leaving because she could no longer stand letting people buy fish that told her things like: "I was told I don't need a heater." "The internet said I could get this .5g and bettas don't like open space, they get nervous in large spaces." "My grandmother always kept bettas in vases and they were fine! You just want me to buy more stuff to get money from me!" among other things about different fish like compatibility and tank sizes. 

It's really unfortunate that so many sources give false information, even ones with otherwise decent info will often have one aspect that's wrong(usually involving heating). This place isn't perfect with their knowledge but it's sad seeing people at a place like Petco who do seem to actually care be treated worse than those with very little or false knowledge. It's an odd and uncomfortable phenomenon.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

aselvarial said:


> I got no information at the beginning. And stupid stores sell those "betta cubes" like that's the desired size. Now that I know better, I cringe at those. I also think that part of the problem, and I know I encounter this, is people think a bigger tank is harder to maintain, when NOTHING is further from the truth! I spend as much time on Lir's little 2.5 gallon every week, as I spend on the 10 and the 20 combined!
> It's amazing that the stores that do put out information on care of bettas get it totally wrong. Most of their other pamphlets are more or less correct (i know, i've grabbed a random selection and then proceeded to investigate the information).
> I can definitely see why they are a gateway fish. They are so amazingly personable!


It doesn't help that the pet stores send VERY mixed signals too. I found it incredibly ironic in my local Petsmart that on one side, you had betta cubes, and on the rack next to the bettas was an aquarium magazine that was highlighting bettas and explaining why the cubes are bad! Really, Petsmart? Who's side are you even on?

And agreeing on the tank size too. I am loving my 30 gallon so far. The 2.5 was a pain in the butt in comparison.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

BettaBeau said:


> add to the mix a society that is now taught that being told "no" is practically bullying, and it makes it difficult to tell people that they are doing something that could harm their betta without making them feel slighted.


This is awesome!

Drives me nuts when somebody is on one part of the forum showing off the new fish they just bought, then posting in another that the don't have enough money to buy heaters for the fish they already have. 

What do you say in this "everybody wins a trophy" world?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

If everyone wins, winning isn't special...

Drives me nuts, too.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

imaal said:


> This forum is indeed tough.


This place is actually pretty mild compared to a site like MFK. Big fish, big testosterone, big egos.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I agree, this place is very mild. It is moderated pretty heavily. 

There are certain posters whose threads I will ignore based on past experience. There was a poster a while ago who had health problem after health problem with their fish stemming from poor husbandry. Yet whenever you tried to address the root cause of all their issues, they would become very evasive and you would get nothing but excuses. 

After a while whenever I saw that member post a topic I would actively avoid clicking on it. 

It's been mentioned, but some people simply are after validation and ego stroking. They don't want to hear any dissenting views. These kind of people are the most frustrating and all you can hope is that an anvil falls on their head and knocks some sense into them.


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> These kind of people are the most frustrating and all you can hope is that an anvil falls on their head and knocks some sense into them.


or they come back reincarnated as their poor fish.


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## Bessie (Sep 13, 2014)

This is an issue that as an aquatics shop employee, really perplexes and disheartens me. I still don't have an answer to it. 

I've had adult men screaming at me because I've refused to sell 6 common goldfish to a new, uncycled 3 foot aquarium. I've had grown women with children insult my appearance because I won't sell several fancy goldfish for a small, uncycled aquarium (but the little darlings _need_ a fish each!) and I've had people walk out of the store because I tried to save them money on medications and offered to test their water for free first, to see if it's an issue with husbandry they can fix at no cost to themselves. 

We often get customers coming in to ask us for help on their diseased fish, but refuse to accept that their husbandry could have anything to do with it.

I think - and it's the only conclusion I can thus far come to - that perhaps people don't like to think they are doing wrong that is causing their animals to become ill. It's much easier to decide the issue is completely nothing to do with them or their husbandry causing illness. Perhaps there's a bit of shame, or simply denial. People certainly do react very strongly & emotionally when you tell them (as politely as you can!) that actually, if they corrected some of the things they're doing they wouldn't have the issue.

I also think a lot of people still do not view fish as animals in their own right. With the amount of people in the year 2014 I get coming in wanting to stick 3 goldfish into a goldfish bowl, I can only assume they perceive them as ornaments rather than living beings who require and absolutely deserve a proper environment rather than one that is going to harm them and is frankly, cruel. 

Very sad ​


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

Earlier today, I stopped in an LFS to pick up supplies. Was intrigued and impressed by their betta display - they were in a nice block shelved display, each in individual, lighted 1-gallon tanks with a hose pumping in air. As I approached the display, I noticed they were all VTs. And being offered for free with a $25 purchase of fish accessories.

Then, I overhear the young sales girl talking to a mom and her young daughter--who are oohhhing and aahhhing over the pretty colored bettas. "These will be easy to take care of - they only need 1 gallon tanks, and no heat." Really? Did you just tell them this?

Of course I butt in, "Excuse me, these are tropical fish. They 1) need a heated tank, 2) that is at least 3 gallons, 3) and fed a diet not consisting of plant roots." 

Offended, the sales girl says "Well, they can get by in a 1-gallon tank." Jeez, really? Come on. My friend is like, ut oh--maybe we should go. But no, again, I butt in - "Put your face on that fish. Would you be happy? No. You'd be pretty miserable." 

The mom and daughter go off to look at goldfish. When the opportunity presented itself, I pulled the sales girl aside and chatted about proper betta fish care so she can properly educate her customers. She admitted she didn't know they needed better care than a goldfish, and seemed appreciative for the info.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Sunny leans up against another background issue: the little cuties are way to cheap. You can get an attractive, healthy VT at Petco for less than a bottle of Prime, less than a small jar of NLS. There are value-challenged individuals (they show up occasionally on here) who just _won't_ justify building a $30 set-up for a <$5 fish.

If Betta cost >$20 (like most of mine have) perhaps more people would value them more highly and keep them more responsibly.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

^agreed, Mesmer cost me $22 but I still say that since I spent over $200 on meds and other supplies to make him healthy that I won't buy any more medicine.


API fungus cure x2=$43
Jungle cure all x2=46
Cupramine=26
Kanaplex=34
Epsom salt=10
AQsalt=15
Tank decor=(15+18+5+5)
Mesmer himself=22
Total~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~$224usd not including food or water conditioner

Archy=28
Prime=12
Omega 1=6
Filter=30
Heater=20
Decor=23
Gravel vac=12
Snail friends=15
Tank=30
Total~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~$176usd


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Hallyx said:


> Sunny leans up against another background issue: the little cuties are way to cheap. You can get an attractive, healthy VT at Petco for less than a bottle of Prime, less than a small jar of NLS. There are value-challenged individuals (they show up occasionally on here) who just _won't_ justify building a $30 set-up for a <$5 fish.
> 
> If Betta cost >$20 (like most of mine have) perhaps more people would value them more highly and keep them more responsibly.


Very good point.They are just too cute & beautiful which makes it very easy for someone to grab a little bright coloured VT for a few dollars and just pop them in one of the little 'tanks' most LFS have sitting just near them.Just like an impulse buy having items placed near the register.It's sad.I wish LFS wouldn't stock those awful little cubes,barracks and vases.It would be great if all stores only sold proper set ups so people knew straight away that's what they need.I wish.

I like to hope that when people do buy a little first time Betta and get bitten by the Betta Bug that they will research and have the interest to learn more about them and the proper care for them.I know I did.

One of my boys cost $7 while one of my other boys cost $75,they are all loved and cared for in the same way,I would never skimp on the care of any of them,they are all as wonderful as each other.:mrgreen:


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

Why do ppl assume a $3 fish costs next to nothing to raise, but will spend a small fortune on a free kitten or puppy?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Hallyx said:


> Sunny leans up against another background issue: the little cuties are way to cheap. You can get an attractive, healthy VT at Petco for less than a bottle of Prime, less than a small jar of NLS. There are value-challenged individuals (they show up occasionally on here) who just _won't_ justify building a $30 set-up for a <$5 fish.
> 
> If Betta cost >$20 (like most of mine have) perhaps more people would value them more highly and keep them more responsibly.


The things you value the most are the things you've worked hardest for.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> Yeah, I also find it extremely annoying.
> 
> I'll never understand why someone would value their own pride over the welfare of their animals. What kind of 'animal lover' does that make someone?


This!!  :lol:


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Ooh, do want to add that when someone doesn't take other members/peoples advice and continues to do things less that right... and publicizes it too (such as making youtube videos on the things) so now a few million or so people are all going to be doing the wrong thing in regards to their animals ffs makes me angry!


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

What really bothers me is that 99% of people who are doing it wrong have fallen victim to the marketing surrounding bettas and fish in general. More needs to be done to push for changes to marketing of fish, else more generations grow up thinking fish can be thrown in a bowl with food every few days and water changes only when it's dirty.


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