# Marbles, Fancies, Genetics, Help Please(pic heavy)



## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks for any help or guesses or opinions or information.

I've been a huge fan of marbles for a very long time.

Now I find "fancy" bettas all the time that rock.

Some are called "Koi".

I'm crazy interested in how these come about.

I'm dropping some pictures here of many marbles or atleast I think they are marbles that I just think absolutely rock.

If anyone here has experience or knowledge about how to try to create any or all of these I will be your best friend FOREVER!! 

Here is a link to a page of many marbles that I love. I'm going to include some of the pics here.

Thanks in advance, I can not wait to hear what you have to say about them.

I see different kinds of marbles. Are there different types of marble genes?
A fish that is black with dragonscale marbling? is it really a marble gene that does it or is it just dragonscale sneaking in?

fancy fish with multiple colors. Do you breed for the colors then cross to a marble fish or do you just keep crossing in various colors and just see what comes out.

Whey are some marbles washed out looking, like a tie dye where colors bleed together while others are clean and crisp like the blue and white marble.

I'm also including a link to a video of an orange and white marble. I'm so so so interested how he made that happen.

Orange And White Marble.

Fancy (Koi)?

http://bettasforsale.com/marbles/


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Marbles comes in all colors. It is the gene that cause color change - often from colorful to dull pale and back dark again - sometimes changing from its original color, sometimes returns. You can not determine the final out come of marbles until it stops "jumping". 

To create fancies, IMO its best to start with fancies of 4 or more colors. You want the mutation/gene that combines many colors. You can add what ever color to create new combinations. As far as I know, not all will become multiple colored betta. Most will only be 2 colored.


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

*Fancies*

Thanks Indjo!

So, is fancy it's own gene? and is multi color fancy a seperate gene from that even?

So do you take a marble and cross it to whatever color you want, then next generation decide what to bring in?

It seems like marbles are sort of a moving target.

I can't really find much to learn from. I have found a few article here and there but they are light weight. I'm going to dig around in IBC stuff and see what I can pick up there.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If you like marbles - yes, you can breed a marble to any color and have a "marble" of that color. 
Eg; 
F1 - rayal blue x royal blue marble = green, steel blue, royal blue - some marble and others not.
F2 - F1 x what ever color = combination of the two and some marbles
Marbles are sort of dominant so you will always have some for generations though you didn't add more marbles.

Fancy is a mutation where the genes allows various colors to physically show on one fish - which is normally not possible. Oh; fancies appears in a "blotch/patch" like pattern - unlike wild color combos. Breeding all the colors you can think of may not produce these kind of fancies if the genes aren't there. Instead you will have a wild color. You can introduce marble genes to your fancies (if they're not carrying it already) and have "surprises" every time you breed them.


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

So in the four pics above. Are those all marbles? like the black HM with the blue dragon scale. Is it a marble or a dragon scale that's not full mask?

And the black and white one. It looks like the marble is under white dragon scale.

Would you achieve that by using a plantinum white fish and cross it to a black dragon scale?

Further moore, what do you cross that black and white fish to? Another just like him to try to breed true?

I have a white male with grey marbling downstairs. I also have a red dragon female. Could the marble affect the dragon scale? What on earth are the possibilities out of a cross like that?


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## tanseattle (Jun 28, 2012)

I now focus only on fancies. I have 23 adults: 14 fancy marble HMPK, 3 HM fancy, and only 6 plakets (of course I do not count over 100 baby plaket 3 month old today).

Tan


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

*Fancy Show Off!!*

Tanseattle

I am a huge fan of that fish in your avatar. If that is not my favorite betta of all time it is tied!!! 

Please teach me what you know.

Did you breed the fish in your Avatar?


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## tanseattle (Jun 28, 2012)

I do not know much about fancy. But I like them so when I select/buy bettas, I choose fancy marble. I just hope when I breed them, they come out nice.

I like red, white, and blue. So I try to find red, white, and blue couples. So at least you know that they carrier of red, white, and blue genes so at least some baby will come out red, white, and blue (not all but at least some).

I have a female fancy yellow, green, blue, red then she turn almost solid blue for 4 weeks. Now she is back to yellow, white, green, blue red again. But I think she is mature so she will be yellow, white, green, blue, and red for good.

I have a fancy koi with about 5-7 colors. I love this female betta but she is so big I have not mate for her. She is mature so she does not change color anymore. She is a WOW koi, really very fancy female. I am searching male for her. 

I also have second fancy koi female that also nice and 4 or marble fancy female. 

For male: I have that avatar RWB; Solid Yellow; Red-blue-black-orange-white; black-yellow-blue-white; black-red dots, white, and blue; and grizzle multicor: blue, green, white, and some red.

I have plenty of stock to breed from.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Marbles affect all colors including dragons. Most dragons are designed to have white bodies. The black dragon has a rather silver body while blue/green dragons often does not affect the bodies (they are totally blue/green). So the white body on dragons . . . well, you don't have to think about adding platinum (which is metallic but not dragon) . . . It's sort of their basic color.

Picture #2 and 4 is a rare combination. My best guess is that they carry blue/green dragon, black dragon, and super black, plus of course the marble genes.
Picture#3 has the same background as above (without super black) but his coloring went in a different direction. Many blue drg x black drg crosses turn out blue dragon with dark/blackish fin edges. 
Picture #1 perhaps is a dragon descendent but did not turn out dragon. He is more metallic than dragon.
BTW, theoretically dragons are genetically double metallic. Eg: + = metallic, while + + = dragon

You can't tell whether a fish is marble or not just by looking at its colors (I can't anyway. lol). You have to take the breeder's word for it. Some marbles change until a later age while others stop younger - they are just unpredictable. 

If you want to create such colors, IMO it's best to buy from that line. They don't have to be a "rare" (expensive) combos. But if you buy the cheaper siblings and inbreed, they should at least throw one or two similar colors and you can further breed them to get more similar coloring. For more color combos introduce fancies like Tan's collection. Working from scratch with solids or regular multies will not produce such colorings.


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

You two are making my day. The genetics behind bettas have always fascinated me.

so in real world terms what does + and ++ mean? Is it as simple as crossing two metalics to each other? Sorry i have much more to say but i am on my phone typing currently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

+ and ++ are just simbols used to indicate metallic genes (+) and dragon genes (++).

For a betta to become dragon, it must have that double metallic gene. If it only has one, it will become a metallic color. I'm not sure how to write the genetic code of those partial dragons though.


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

Ok, so in essence they are similar but different genes right?

so, i should cross my marble boy to my red dragon if for no other reason
just to see what i get. There are no guarantees with marbles but i may see some cool combos.

may have some dragonscales that show marblinge. The boy is also elephant ear. Im sure that wont show up in f1 but it could show up in f1 sibling cross right?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes to all.


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## ShowMeBettas (Oct 26, 2012)

So cool. So fancy and marble are two differenet genes. Are there difforent types of marble genes? Seems like some marbles colors bleed together where others are more crisp, like a paint horse. Do you know if the same gene can create both? Is there any difference between the gene coming from mother father or both? Sorry to beat a dead horse but this stuff is awesome. Thanks a million for this discussion.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Not sure if there are more than one type of marble genes - never really looked into them (not a fan). Oh, just to clarify; I've never looked into fancies as well - just concluding the few times I've bred them. But I do notice that sometimes marbles work in certain ways and thus is associated with certain color pattern. My SB (3 different lines from 3 different breeders in 3 different islands) all carry marbles - the "dream" blue dragon (white body with blue fins) is also associated with marbles. So it is possible that certain patterned fancies are also associated with marble genes, though the two genes are different but they may have to work together to create certain patterns.

Perhaps someone who has worked more with fancies could shed more light on this.

It is believed that male passes more color while female passes more form. I used to believe this, but now I have doubts. Recent breeding shows that form and color can go either way, depending on who's genes are stronger (more fixed). However I could never improve form using average quality female. So, though I still go by this myth and will advise it, I don't expect too much.


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## Warlock (Aug 12, 2011)

good info thank


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