# Betta is losing his tail



## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Greetings everyone. I am new to the forum (long time browser here) but have had my betta, Zuko, for just about a year. He has recently developed a problem with his tail that I am trying to fight, but I can't seem to get anywhere. I hope that the experts and fellow betta lovers here can help!

A month ago I moved Zuko into my preschool classroom. He seemed to do well and adjust to the transition. Recently though, I started to notice his tail was looking more and more ragged. My sister visited yesterday, and she saw what I could not - there was a dramatic difference in his tail length. He has lost about half of his tail. I checked some older pictures and she was right. I was shocked and saddened.

I cannot really tell what the cause of his tail loss is. I have never seen him bite it, but I can't know for certain. I suspect fin rot or possibly a fungus, but I don't know.

This is Zuko back in September. He had a small rip in his tail fin, but was otherwise fine.









Here was his tail last week










Here are some pictures I took today.

















Please help me figure out what is wrong with poor Zuko! I want to do what I can for him - he's such a sweet and spoiled boy.

Housing 
What size is your tank?* 2.5 gallons*
What temperature is your tank? *Between 78 and 82 degrees, slightly varies*
Does your tank have a filter? *Yes*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? *No*
Is your tank heated? *Yes*
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *None*

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? *Omega One Betta Pellets*
How often do you feed your betta fish? *3 pellets, twice a day (none on weekends)*

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?* Once per week*
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?* Approx 50%*
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Prime Water Conditioner and a sprinkle of aquarium salt*

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
*I do not have a proper kit, but I used a pool one. I plan on purchasing one tonight and can hopefully post actual parameters tomorrow*

Ammonia: 
Nitrite: 
Nitrate: 
pH: *7.2*
Hardness: *200(?, can't remember exactly)*
Alkalinity:

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *His tail has become ragged at the edges, the red in his tail is much darker at the edges. Also, the blue tint is much more pronounced/bright. He appears to have lost about half of his tail now*
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *Not much really. He seems a little more lethargic than usual, but he still flares and builds bubble nests and always comes for food.*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? *About 2 weeks ago*
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *I gave him an extra water change, and began treating him with Jungle's Lifeguard. He's on Day 2 now. Also using a bit more salt*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? *He tore his tail fin several months ago. Added salt and water treatments and it came back within a week or so*
How old is your fish (approximately)? *I purchased him in April, so I would guess roughly a year?*

*EDIT*
Just to clarify, Zuko's coloring is a darkish red, with electric blue highlights. The pictures above aren't a perfect representation of his color patterns. The edges of his tail are currently dark, with that electric blue streaking, and appears white in spots (HOWEVER, I am aware that these spots may indicate ick or a fungus)


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

First, you need to fl 100% water changes if the tank isn't cycled. It sounds like he has finrot which can be treated with frequent water changes and a bit of stresscoat.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Thank you, dramaqueen!

That's what I was guessing. I think I'll put him in a QT tomorrow for water changes and stress coat. Do I add stress coat WITH the prime, or just the stress coat?

I also read on another thread that using API Fungus Cure could be beneficial. 

I know there are various opinions/guidelines on using aquarium salt with medication, so if someone could advise me on that? Thanks


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

I would wait on using Fungus Cure. That looks like fin rot to me. Clean, warm water, stress coat, maybe some aquarium salt. He needs *very* clean water, so at least 100% every other day in a 2.5 gallon tank, or 100% every day in a smaller tank.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Thank you for your reply! I went ahead and brought him home from school to take care of him at home. He's set up in a QT now with fresh water, and I'll give him a 100% change every day. Definitely going to get some stress coat too.

I figure he'll recover better at home away from all the school stimulation.

Thanks everyone! I feel much better hearing others' opinions and suggestions.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I also agree on full water changes and wait on medication. Just keep close eye and make sure he is not getting worse .You can make daily pictures for comparison. You can use 2 drops of Prime per gall along with stress coat. If you will think he is getting worse or will get lethargic then let us know may be it will good idea to medicate him then. 

As for the water changes before you do full 100% water changes. If you never did full water changes before i would do a few 50% about 4 hrs apart. Just make him get used to the new chemistry so we don't shock him with the drastic diffirence. And don't forget that when you do a full water change you need to match new water temperature with his water temperature. Let us know if you need instructions

Salt - how long you been using it? You do not need to use it on a regular basis. If you been using it for a long time i would stop it. Salt long term is not beneficial and will not prevent agains of any disease. Long use salt can also damage the kidneys. Will also make pathogens resistant to it and will not help when needed. 

The reason we recommended to use medications in that other thread that you posted previously because we suspected a fungus infection.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

It was a good idea to bring him home to keep an eye on him and give him some tlc.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

ANHEL123 said:


> Salt - how long you been using it? You do not need to use it on a regular basis. If you been using it for a long time i would stop it. Salt long term is not beneficial and will not prevent agains of any disease. Long use salt can also damage the kidneys. Will also make pathogens resistant to it and will not help when needed.


Yeah, the gal at the pet store had recommending adding a pinch with every water change. She had raised bettas herself and I trusted her opinions.

I haven't been using it with every single water change, more like once a month perhaps? But yes, after reading more here and other research, I agree it's best to leave it alone. Thanks for your input!


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## shatterstag (Feb 25, 2014)

What a handsome prince! I love how he's red like fire bending but has lighting blue stripes, perfectly matches his name sake

This seems like a good resource for quickly clearing up finrot, maybe it would help him.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, this is a much more aggressive form of fin rot. You're going to need a good antibiotic to treat him before this turns into body rot. Most medium to mild rot can be treated with simple water changes, NO SALT, salt is only good for disinfecting wounds the first day or so; after that it's useless and only harms the fish. But your boy has a much more serious form and I would recommend finding some KanaPlex for him. Most of the time you can't find this in stores unless you have a really good LFS you go to, otherwise you have to buy online. Other antibiotics like the Maracyn I & II, Erythromycin and Tetracycline may help but they are older medications and the rot may be more resistant to the older medications. KanaPlex is newer which means less bacteria are resistant to it.

The water changes will always help but he just needs a little more help.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I used to use salt all the time with every water change until someone told me the ut messes euthanasia their osmoregulatory system. I wouldn't medicate unless absolutely necessary.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm going to hold off on medication for now. I think being home away from school will decrease any stress he may have, and help heal him up. While I was at the pet store (Anyone know of _Harp's_? Pretty sure it's just a local store and not a chain. Very good) I browsed and they have a very wide variety of medicine, so I'll be set if I do need to get him something later on. I went ahead and picked up a water testing kit, as well as some stress coat.

Again, thank you so much everyone! I thought I had a pretty good handle on how to take care of my boy, but you guys are teaching me so much more. No more salt, do more water changes (the kids love watching these, they'll be thrilled). I fully expect a full recovery with all the help.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Uh yeah, you don't want to hold off on getting medication for him and starting him on it right away. If this progressed that much in two weeks and I know it doesn't seem like a lot but he needs to get on medications right away. This will end up leading to body rot and internal infection and then death if not taken care of. He's not going to get better with just water changes unfortunately, honestly, I wish it was like that but this is, as I said before, a much more aggressive form of fin rot.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm going to give it 48 hours of careful observation, lots of water changes, and the stress coat. If I don't see improvement, I'll get him some strong medicine.

Zuko is quite the pampered little prince, and I intend to take very good care of him. He will get the best meds that Harp's has to offer if/when the time comes for it Friday. That way I will be at home over the weekend for closer observation and TLC. He is constantly stimulated at school, so I'm hoping the relaxing at home will soothe him and speed recovery. And if not, meds it is!


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> I'm going to give it 48 hours of careful observation, lots of water changes, and the stress coat. If I don't see improvement, I'll get him some strong medicine.
> 
> Zuko is quite the pampered little prince, and I intend to take very good care of him. He will get the best meds that Harp's has to offer if/when the time comes for it Friday. That way I will be at home over the weekend for closer observation and TLC. He is constantly stimulated at school, so I'm hoping the relaxing at home will soothe him and speed recovery. And if not, meds it is!


If you want to save your fish you'll listen to lilnaugrim before it's too late.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Poor baby! I shined the flashlight on him this morning (to take a closer look at fins) and it appears he has velvet. There is a fine gold dusting on the top of his body. I'll be making a trip to the pet store this afternoon after all for some meds.  Any recommendations? I know Harp's has a wide variety, particularly the Jungle brand.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> Poor baby! I shined the flashlight on him this morning (to take a closer look at fins) and it appears he has velvet. There is a fine gold dusting on the top of his body. I'll be making a trip to the pet store this afternoon after all for some meds.  Any recommendations? I know Harp's has a wide variety, particularly the Jungle brand.


More pictures of that will help. Many people think their fish has velvet when they don't, it is just their iridescence. This is a fish with velvet:


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Here are some morning pictures. After looking at other pics this morning, I'm thinking I'm just panicking and it's just natural coloring.




























There's something white on the end of his tail in the second picture - new growth? or something not good?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, thankfully it's just natural coloration! Sometimes velvet can hide within the natural iridescence but he looks clean as a whistle! And that white is not regrowth unfortunately....it looks like a type of fungus I believe that tends to eat new growth if it tries to come back from fin rot. He still has terrible rot though, all that blue/black stuff, that's bad rot. Water changes, yes they will help, but he really needs to get on meds right now.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yeah, thankfully it's just natural coloration! Sometimes velvet can hide within the natural iridescence but he looks clean as a whistle! And that white is not regrowth unfortunately....it looks like a type of fungus I beIieve that tends to eat new growth if it tries to come back from fin rot. He still has terrible rot though, all that blue/black stuff, that's bad rot. Water changes, yes they will help, but he really needs to get on meds right now.


Oh thank goodness. Yeah, I think I've decided to go ahead and start him on meds. I'll head to the store right after school. I will look for the new medicine you recommended, but if they don't have it, would a Jungle product be the next choice? I've read good things about triple sulfa.

Thanks for the help!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, Triple Sulfa will work pretty well as long as you aren't allergic to sulfa medications as I am unfortunately. Tetracycline and Erythromycin may work but I would use the Triple Sulfa first. Maracyn I & II combination would also work decently if Triple Sulfa does not.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

My class is so heartbroken that "Mr. Fish" is sick. They love watching him and they were so sad that I took him home to get better. It was very sweet how much they care. Hopefully once he gets his meds in him he'll make a full recovery and be able to come back soon!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Just came home with the API Triple Sulfa medicine. Going to give him a water change and dose him up. I assume it's alright to use stress coat with that?

Thankfully, he's still acting perfectly fine. A little less active in his QT, but took food fine and is playing with his plant in there. He must have pulled it out of the base this morning!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, stress coat is just a water conditioner so its fine. Make sure you always use a conditioner of some sort!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

So hard to get pictures now with the QT! Either I can't get a good shot because of the non-clear sides, or I finally get a good angle and then he swims on his merry way! Gah!

This angle makes it look much worse than it is length-wise (still about the same) but it's close up on the ends.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

He seems more lethargic tonight. He's alternating between slowly coasting on the bottom, and simply resting on top of the heater. He came up for his food, but hasn't shown much other activity. At one point he just lay at the bottom, wiggling his little side fins.

Have to admit, I'm getting concerned (glad that i finally decided to get him on meds). He has had a stressful day (water changes, medicine, new environment) but I'm still worried about him. I have a heater in the tank, but for some reason I don't think it's working well (the water is in the 76 area) It is the same heater from his regular tank, and I can feel that it's warm when I pull it out, so I can't guess what that's about.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, he's just stressed out. Tonight put a towel or a blanket over his tank without lights to make it fully black. This will reduce his stress and make him more calm, the darkness just has that effect on fish. In the morning slowly take the cover off so as not to startle him and he can acclimate to the light once more. You can do this daily or just once while he's being medicated, it's up to you and if you see an improvement while you do it, it might be worth continuing since this will be a bit of a stressful process both for yourself and him. He's going to need a lot of care for the next few weeks and beyond as hopefully the meds cure him of that awful rot and he starts to regrow his tail back, he's lost a lot of it already but with some TLC he should be right as rain come a few months!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Oh, that makes me feel much better, thank you! He's locked in one of the bathrooms with no windows (easy sink access, safe from the cats) but I love the idea with the towel. He's been used to more natural wake-up/light's-out before now, so that makes perfect sense.

I might bring his old tank home from school and just set it up as the QT. That will also make it easier to monitor his tail - it's hard to see just from the top. The tank does have a glass bottom - is that going to be a problem? I've seen him flare at himself at the glass walls (usually only when the room is dark) but with the light above with nothing on the bottom it might stress him. Would an acrylic paint do the trick if it needs to be painted?

Thank you so much for your help and advice!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

His old tank would be fine to use if you want to, him flaring is actually a good thing meaning he is more or less healthy still and willing to move around. If you wanted to, yes the acrylic paint would help him if you think he is flaring too much but the occasional flare is totally fine 

Oh also wanted to throw this out there, if you could find some Roobios tea, a herbal tea with no extra ingredients you can use this as a tannins source. Tannins have minor antibacterial properties and also helps keep Bettas calm, it's more like their home environment. So you could get the tea and boil a pot of water, steep the tea and let cool down, condition the water before it goes in of course and pour in the stained water to the desired tan/brown color. Don't worry about putting too much, it won't hurt him but try to stay around a nice light tanned color if you will, this way you can still see him of course but the tannins will help along getting rid of his fin rot as well. And then you would just prepare a new tea bag for when you change his water. Instead you can also just hang the tea bag into his tank and let the tannins leach out from there, taking the bag out when the water has become the nice tanned color.

Tannins aren't necessary, but it would help out so it's up to you of course!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Ooh, that sounds very interesting. I will keep an eye out for some. We're a tea drinking family so I may have to steal some from him. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Haha! Yeah, I know what you mean! Love tea myself ^_^ Other options for tannins sources are IAL (Indian Almond Leaf) or Dried Oak Leaves as long as you know where they came from and no insecticides or pesticides sprayed around the tree or the yard. Also driftwood is the most common one but obviously it would be a little difficult and silly to put a piece of driftwood in a hospital tank ;-) IAL is the most common to use for breeding and sick tanks and really just all around general use since they are pretty easy but I figured you'd have an easier time finding a non-caffeinated tea rather than buying IAL online


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Day 2 of Triple Sulfa/Stress Coat, back in his regular tank










He is much better today, stress-wise. After I let him loose in his old tank (he was flitting around his acclimating cup like mad - patience!) He immediately started flaring at all the walls - quite cute. His heater was definitely acting up in his QT, and is now doing perfectly in the regular tank. Madness, but whatever - he's comfortable at 80 again 

I looked for the tea at our major grocery store, but couldn't find any. It would probably have to be an organic food place for around here, or some sort of more specialized shop. May order some leaves if he needs them, but he seems to be doing alright for now. Phew.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Just checked online and there is some at a semi-local vitamin shop. Good to know in case he needs some.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Poor boy, that rot is spreading _fast!_, I'm glad you've got him on meds now before this infects his body. There is still a chance that it may end up body rot and we'll need to look at different medicine choices but for now, just continue with the T. Sulfa and hope it helps him out.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Should I use some aquarium salt as well? Don't know if that would help at this point, or if it would interfere with the triple sulfa.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Nah, there's nothing that AQ salt would do at this point. AQ salt is good for keeping open wounds sterilized and free of pathogens/diseases while it closes up, after it closes it there is nothing that salt will do to help it. Rotting fins are not open wounds, they basically sealed with the rotting fin so even if you had salt in there, it wouldn't penetrate the rot to help heal the rest of the fin.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

Did you give him the full 4 doses of Triple Sulfa?
I was just re-reading the box to make sure, but that is what you are suppose to do. Not stop at 2 doses.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

mart said:


> Did you give him the full 4 doses of Triple Sulfa?
> I was just re-reading the box to make sure, but that is what you are suppose to do. Not stop at 2 doses.


I believe she is still dosing him, just back in his regular tank now as opposed to the hospital tank he was in is all.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> I believe she is still dosing him, just back in his regular tank now as opposed to the hospital tank he was in is all.


Oh good, was just concerned. His tail doesn't look quite as bad in that last pic.
Hope the sulfa works. 
I know the Fungus cure worked on Buddy, and his tail was almost to his butt, but he didn't have that black on him like hers does.

Carry on lilnaugrim.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Oh yes, definitely still giving him treatment. He's still doing well - behavior is back to normal after the stress in the hospital tank, and he's eating and swimming like a champ.

In the middle of his water change right now, I'll post an update picture in a bit when he's done.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> Oh yes, definitely still giving him treatment. He's still doing well - behavior is back to normal after the stress in the hospital tank, and he's eating and swimming like a champ.
> 
> In the middle of his water change right now, I'll post an update picture in a bit when he's done.


That's wonderful news. Looks like the little guy is gonna make it. :-D


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Alright, Day 3 of Triple Sulfa and Stress Coat:


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm wondering if a cause of Zuko's fin rot was the change of water going from my home to school - we're on different water systems. I always use prime, so I would think that shouldn't matter, but maybe the change could have been a factor? He was there for about a month, so perhaps the stress of the move could have done it.

Well, my co-teacher is bringing in her daughter's turtle from home on Monday (she had seen me nurse Zuko and seemed to think I'd take better care of him than her daughter?) so it seems my pampered prince may be back home permanently. The only reason he made the move in the first place was because one of our cats decided he seemed fun to play with, but she is one of our outdoor girls who was only inside for the cold weather. Maybe preschool just doesn't agree with the little guy!


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

If you are on different water systems, I don't know if that would CAUSE the rot, but it certainly might EFFECT it. 

If you have a liquid test kit (API Freshwater Master Test Kit is a good one), test both your home tap water and your school tap water. I've lived in places that had shockingly high levels of ammonia in the water (it was 0.25 in one town and ~0.6 in another, for example), and all sorts of other odd things. You can also test GH and KH (which test certain types of "hardness")…I was in a town where the GH was crazy high and the KH was off the scale, literally. If your school and your house have different water sources, there would be major differences in water chemistry.

I am glad to hear Zuko is eating and acting happy; that's definitely a hopeful sign!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Do you have pictures of him before he was at the preschool? That way we could determine if he had the rot before or if it happened during the past month.

As long as he was acclimated properly to the water changes, there should be no issue with rot. Rot comes about when water parameters are less than desirable. How big is his regular tank and how often was the water changed?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

His regular tank is a 2.5 gallon, with an internal filter and a moss ball to help with waste. He was getting a 50% water change/vacuum once a week, with a 100% change when necessary for cleaning. I realize now that was not enough fresh water, so he will definitely be getting more changes from now on.

I do have that API test kit, so I will test the water tomorrow when I go in. It will be very interesting to see the difference.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

This is a picture taken immediately before the move to school. I can't find any others besides the one back in September when he had the tear in his fin. He would not cooperate well for pictures so I had never really bothered.










I know it's hard to see - I'll keep looking and see if there are any others on my phone I might have missed.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

And here is today, day four (final) of triple sulfa.



















So what would you think is the next step?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

UPDATE! Just checked on Zuko, and I think I can definitely see new growth. Yes!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I would go another round with the Triple Sulfa just to make sure. The black does have iridescence on it meaning that it could be natural but still the fact that his tail is so short like this and I see no new growth at least in that particular picture. The extra med and water changes won't hurt him. After the next round is done, you're going to have to do some daily water changes on him for a while, I know that can be sort of stressful on us and frustrating but he really needs it.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Alright, we'll go another round just to be safe. Thanks again for all your help, I really do appreciate it so much!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Triple Sulfa Treatment, Round 2, Day 1










Whatever I saw yesterday, it seems that it was not new growth, or at least it is gone today.  This is very stressful, especially since I thought he was beginning to improve. At least he's still behaving normally - that keeps my spirits up quite a bit.

I have the water test kit and samples in my hand, will report soon on the experiment of water differences.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Alright, here are the water parameters I tested. These are straight from the tap, with no water conditioner.

Home Water:
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
pH: 7.4

School Water:
Ammonia: 0.50ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
pH: 7.0


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> Alright, here are the water parameters I tested. These are straight from the tap, with no water conditioner.
> 
> Home Water:
> Ammonia: 0.25ppm
> ...


That school water is pretty high in ammonia.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Yeah that test might not have been accurate, I was having trouble with the timer.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

.5 isn't that bad, what you need then is a cycled tank. Do you understand about the Nitrogen Cycle and how it protects your fishy?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I've studied it a bit, but from what I understand its very hard to do with a smaller tank. I would possibly consider an upgrade (perhaps divided for a friend) but it would depend on cost and maintenance. If Zuko would be alright as he is, its easier to keep it that way.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Stopped at the pet store today and looked at decorations for Zuko's tank, and I found some driftwood. Most of it was huge chunks, but I found a smaller piece that had broken off, and they let me have it for free!

Gave it a thorough hot bath when I got home and made sure the edges were smooth, and plopped it in.

While I was there I picked up some Jungle Fungus Cure as well, as I think I see some fuzzies on his tail (just in case).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Great on the piece of driftwood! That was nice of them ^_^

As for the cycle, it's not necessarily hard to do in small tanks, just not as stable as larger tanks but I've successfully cycled 2.5's before without much issue. You just need a good filter in which I suggest taking a look at this one: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+3608+9821&pcatid=9821 I've got two and love them, and the media is customization so you can switch it to whatever you want instead of having to buy cartridges all the time. And this filter is adjustable; great for Bettas, and it has more area in the filter for the bacteria to happily colonize!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Sulfa Treatment, Round 2, Day 2
(following a 100% water change because yucky gunk)

Everybody look left!









Everybody look right!









Everywhere you look I'm
Standing in the spotlight!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

lol cutie! Love the Lion King!

Hopefully all he will need is just water changes after the treatment is done. No visible improvement on the blackened areas but we'll see.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

It almost looks like there may be some type of fuzzy growth - it varies day to day, but I'm guessing it could be a fungus? Maybe getting that to clear up will allow for the new growth to come in. Gonna give him a med break for a bit of course.

I'll try to get a good picture of it here shortly - he has apparently been extremely active today.


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## wewered (Jan 6, 2014)

(Note: I only read through the first page) Has anyone thought that he is just fin bitting our is ripping his tail on one of his decorations?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

wewered said:


> (Note: I only read through the first page) Has anyone thought that he is just fin bitting our is ripping his tail on one of his decorations?


It's not possible, here's a link to the differences of those and fin rot: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=346377 would be a nice idea though but unfortunately, he definitely has rot :-/


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Alright, here's the latest. Things are not improving, and we have a new tear 

From yesterday (final day of meds):


















Just taken (with super camera flash)


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I am at a complete loss for what to do with my boy. I'm going to give him a 100% water change, then put his tank back to normal. I know he needs a medicine break.

So I'll do partial changes every day, and maybe try a new medicine. I have Jungle Fungus Clear on hand (I think I spy some fuzzies on him) but it is just so frustrating to not see any results, and now he's gone and made it worse somehow!

The only saving grace is that he is STILL behaving completely normally, so thank goodness for that.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sigh....the poor boy. Okay, I'm changing my mind on the blue/black part, it almost looks like natural coloring however just in a really inconvenient spot. However, he should not be losing his tail like he is so it is still rotting, just looks like the black/blue might not be the actual rot. It is also possible that his tail is also melting, it does look like the edges are clumped together. Did you notice any clumping of his tail before this happened?

We can try a stronger medication like Maracyn I and Maracyn II combined to hit both gram negative and gram positive bacteria. The fuzzies you see on him are most likely just excess slime coat that he is shedding from the medications. But yes, keep up the water changes and see about the Maracyn's. You can also try getting KanaPlex by SeaChem but you would most likely have to order it online from a place like drsfosterandsmith.com or amazon.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> I am at a complete loss for what to do with my boy. I'm going to give him a 100% water change, then put his tank back to normal. I know he needs a medicine break.
> 
> So I'll do partial changes every day, and maybe try a new medicine. I have Jungle Fungus Clear on hand (I think I spy some fuzzies on him) but it is just so frustrating to not see any results, and now he's gone and made it worse somehow!
> 
> The only saving grace is that he is STILL behaving completely normally, so thank goodness for that.


His tail looks pretty good to me. I would give him a little time in his tank with fresh water, do a 50% everyday, and see how it goes. I know my boy didn't show any real improvement for at least two weeks after the medication, It also looks like he has some new growth starting, doesn't look like fuzz to me.

He may have some pieces break off still, that's just the dead stuff. His tail is definitiley more than one color. There would be little pieces of mines tail attached to the pre filter occasionally, but then it stopped. His tail is almost entirely back now. I wouldn't keep medicating him, give him a little time.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmm, looking back, I still have issues with that blue/black stuff. Mostly because it doesn't follow a pattern of which coloration quite normally does even if it is a "patternless" pattern. It really looks like his tail is melting :-/


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Hmm, looking back, I still have issues with that blue/black stuff. Mostly because it doesn't follow a pattern of which coloration quite normally does even if it is a "patternless" pattern. It really looks like his tail is melting :-/


I believe that black skinny piece will eventually fall off. I also believe the black is being overtaken by his color blue/green.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I've heard of fin melting, but I don't know much about it.

I do think the blue may be natural, because he has that in other places on his body/fins, but the black is worrisome I bet.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, I do see the blue in the other places and it could be, it's still just very weird.

Fin melting is when the fins generally clump together and literally look like they are melting; receding towards the body as they melt. The ends of his tail right now look as if they were melted, even regular fin rot would look more jagged and raw, his look like plastic melted together. Is that how it looks in real life as well?


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yeah, I do see the blue in the other places and it could be, it's still just very weird.
> 
> Fin melting is when the fins generally clump together and literally look like they are melting; receding towards the body as they melt. The ends of his tail right now look as if they were melted, even regular fin rot would look more jagged and raw, his look like plastic melted together. Is that how it looks in real life as well?


I think it's just the way the pic was taken and how he's holding his tail. But we'll see what KGdiva says.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

mart said:


> I think it's just the way the pic was taken and how he's holding his tail. But we'll see what KGdiva says.


I see it in all the pictures, not just the last one.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Mart, thank you so much for weighing in! I really appreciate hearing different opinions - the collaboration will definitely help diagnose and figure out what's wrong with him exactly.

Here's the latest - I tried to get multiple angles so we could see what's going on with his tail. He is a horrible model, so they're not the best, but here's what we have to work with.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Looking closely, it appears that this 'fin melt' is a definite possibility, and more than likely the culprit. It looks pretty much the same in person as it does in the pictures.

In the last picture you can see something at the ends of his fins, but I can't tell if it's excess slime, new growth, or something else. Of course I would love for it to be healing, but I'm not certain.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> Looking closely, it appears that this 'fin melt' is a definite possibility, and more than likely the culprit. It looks pretty much the same in person as it does in the pictures.
> 
> In the last picture you can see something at the ends of his fins, but I can't tell if it's excess slime, new growth, or something else. Of course I would love for it to be healing, but I'm not certain.


Yeah, you see that real skinny piece kinda hanging? Buddy had that too, and it eventually fell off, along with the rest of it that looked like that. Then in a week or two, I finally saw some new growth starting.

Does he ever spread out his fins?

The reason I say he looks pretty good is that the black is being replaced with his color.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Yes, I usually turn the lights out during pictures to try to tempt him the flare. In the first two pictures he's not, but in the final one he is flaring and the fins are all spread out.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I believe it _looks_ as if the color is returning but in fact, he's loosing more fin and more rapidly as well, of course he is clamping it a little bit so it's difficult to really say but I'm leaning towards that his fins are still "melting". I'm going to PM a few people to see if they can help out here since I'm running out of options other than stronger medications in hopes it stops the infections. I remember helping others with fin melt before but by the end of it, they never replied back so I never knew the outcome of the fish >.< I really dislike when people do that lol I understand if life gets hectic and all but a nice little "end" to the thread would be nice :roll: ANYWAY!

EDIT: oh and the stuff coming off just looks like Slime Coat again, as I said, medications will irritate the slime coat as well and cause it to shed; that's normal.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Thank you lilnaugrim! In the meantime, should I order some kanaplex so it will arrive ASAP, or should I wait to know for sure what to get?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I do think KanaPlex would be a good idea, it's a good drug to have on hand anyway even if it doesn't help him right now. It's also an easy going drug so it won't stress him out as much and you can keep using it for quite a few rounds if it is helping little by little. If, by the third round, there is no visible increase in fin growth or any change besides getting worse, I would discontinue at that point and look for something else. I've PM'd LittleBlueFishlets and I hope she can help a little at least!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

KanaPlex is ordered (should hopefully be here within a few days) as well as that smaller filter you recommended. I don't think he likes his current one anyway.

That's unfortunate to learn about the stress coat, but at least it's not a problem. I just keep hoping to see improvement.

Again, I cannot thank you enough for all your help.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

KGdiva said:


> That's unfortunate to learn about the stress coat, but at least it's not a problem. I just keep hoping to see improvement.


Stress Coat or Slime coat do you mean? One is a conditioner, the other is a protective coating around the fish to keep it safe lol.

I'm just sorry I can't do more for you and him.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Oh I meant the slime coat. Just sad to confirm that's what was on his tail, and not new growth.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, just wanted to make sure!! But yeah, it is, however, better to be slime coat than a fungus on top of what he already has!!


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hi KGdiva,

I've just read through this entire thread. You've done an excellent job of documenting his condition. The photos have been especially helpful. 

Also, people like *lilnaugrim* and *mart* have done a really great job of offering advice! 

*The photos in post #32 (page 4), and in post #75 (page 8): * Do these photos show his natural coloration well? There is bright turquoise iridescence along his caudal (tail) fin, the top of his body, and along the edges of his other fins. 
I'm assuming this turquoise is his natural coloration, so we can rule that type of coloring as an issue..... 

I do see black-colored fin rot on the bottom portion of his tail fin on all of the photos. 

In post #75, did he have any black "fuzzy" stuff at the end of his tail? If so, is it still there?

*The photos in post #65 (page 7): * These photos actually look better to me than the previous ones. The blackened rot has fallen off. What's left behind is shorter, but healthier, tissue. (Mart made a good observation about this, IMO.)

*Overall thoughts:*

He definitely has a persistent form of fin rot. Most cases of fin rot are due to gram-negative bacterial infections. I think the sulfa meds did a good job of getting rid of it, but it looks like there's still a bit left.

You've stopped using the Aquarium salt, right? Have you done a full water change since stopping the salt, to make sure it's completely removed from the tank? (Just checking on this, as Aq salt is not needed for bettas. It has a high sodium content, which places stress on the kidneys as they try to remove it from the body. And while it has mild antimicrobial properties, it's not enough to treat his current infection.... Plus, medications such as antibiotics put stress on the kidneys too, so I don't like to use Aquarium salt and medications simultaneously.) 

Have you finished the sulfa medications now? If so, how long has it been since you stopped them? 

If this was my fish, I would do a 100% water change. Then, you'll need to make a decision. You can do another round of sulfa medications, or switch to a gram-negative specific antibiotic, such as the furan class. But the pH in your tank can help you determine what to do....

Nitrofurazone is more effective at lower pH levels. 
The sulfa meds are more effective at higher pH levels. 

If you decide to switch, the furan class of antibiotics are very effective for fin rot. There are several brands available, such as:
- API Furan 2,
- Hikari Bifuran,
- Jungle Fungus Clear
- Tetra Fungus Guard

IIRC, you already have the Jungle Fungus Clear, right? Check the ingredients on the box. They should be nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate.

By doing another round of meds (either sulfa or furan), it will hopefully stop that last bit of rot still on him, as well as destroy any "fuzzies." Also, at this point, the rot is fairly close to his body. It's much easier to treat rot while it's still on the fins, and before it reaches the body. Hopefully, an additional round of sulfa or furan meds will cure any remaining infection.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Thanks for the reply LittleBlueFishlets! I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.



> The photos in post #32 (page 4), and in post #75 (page 8): Do these photos show his natural coloration well? There is bright turquoise iridescence along his caudal (tail) fin, the top of his body, and along the edges of his other fins.
> I'm assuming this turquoise is his natural coloration, so we can rule that type of coloring as an issue.....


Yes that is his natural coloring. He has always had the hints of blue, but in the past it has been less prominent, but it's always present in some degree. He is also naturally a darker red around his head (bothered me for the longest time).



> In post #75, did he have any black "fuzzy" stuff at the end of his tail? If so, is it still there?


I believe so. I do not see any presently, but there is some sort of clearish fuzz on the end of his tail. It varies. Lilnaugrim believes that it is excess slime coat. I have also seen traces of this fuzz all over his body in small bits, so that seems most likely.



> The photos in post #65 (page 7): These photos actually look better to me than the previous ones. The blackened rot has fallen off. What's left behind is shorter, but healthier, tissue. (Mart made a good observation about this, IMO.)


Well that is certainly good to hear!



> You've stopped using the Aquarium salt, right? Have you done a full water change since stopping the salt, to make sure it's completely removed from the tank?


Oh yes. He got a full water change without salt from the first posting of the thread, and has multiple full changes since. (For now I've been giving him daily partial changes, and occasional full changes (every few days) as the state of the tank water dictates.



> Have you finished the sulfa medications now? If so, how long has it been since you stopped them?


Yes, it has all been used after two rounds of the medicine (plus one day because I had a leftover packet). The last treatment was on Thursday (6th).



> IIRC, you already have the Jungle Fungus Clear, right? Check the ingredients on the box. They should be nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate.


I do have the Jungle (and ingredients match), and I have also ordered Kanaplex.



> By doing another round of meds (either sulfa or furan), it will hopefully stop that last bit of rot still on him, as well as destroy any "fuzzies." Also, at this point, the rot is fairly close to his body. It's much easier to treat rot while it's still on the fins, and before it reaches the body. Hopefully, an additional round of sulfa or furan meds will cure any remaining infection.


I think I will start him on Jungle and see how that does for him. In the meantime I will wait for the Kanaplex and give him that later on, if needed.

Thank you very much for your input and advice!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Here are the latest pictures. These are taken with flash/dark room to get him to flare at his reflection from the tank light. Little bugger hates his photo-shoots 




































Those little bits on the end of this last picture are what I keep going to. I keep wanting to think they're new growth, but that's unlikely, I know.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, they don't look like new growth to me, you said you've seen it on more than just his fins? In which case then it probably is excess slime coat but it generally doesn't hang on for that long; he would have shed it by now. It could possibly be a secondary infection to the fin rot/melt but that isn't so concerning at this point. If meds start to help the melt/rot then it should get rid of the fuzz as well. It does continue to look like fin melt to me. Can you take pictures without flash but just in a lighted room so we can see his more natural coloration? I think the blue is sort of getting in the way to see the black. Putting his tank in a sunny window for some of the shots may help unless it brings out the blue again lol.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Zuko is just killing me. His fins are more ragged again. He just is not improving. Still acting like a champ, though. Gave him the second round of Jungle Fungus Clear today - the Kanaplex will arrive tomorrow.
Regular light, no flash:

Yesterday









Today









So frustrating that I don't seem to be helping him.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Okay, so the Kanaplex has arrived. I've still been using the Jungle, and I THINK I can see some improvement. In the space between the two biggest tears, I see a sort of webbed area that was not there yesterday. I haven't taken a picture yet, but I hope I'm right this time!

But yeah, the new drugs are here. I'm pretty certain I shouldn't combine the two  but what should the next step be? Switch, give him a break, stick with one, etc. If this growth IS growth, I suppose I should stick with Jungle, but I'm not sure that it is (I'll post pics tomorrow, he's sleeping and grumpy/uncooperative when woken)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Post some photos tomorrow, and we'll compare the ones from the other day to them..... That may help determine whether to stick with the Jungle Fungus Clear or switch to the Kanaplex.

The furan meds found in the Fungus Clear are usually excellent at clearing up most cases of fin rot when it's caused by gram-negative bacteria. (There are other causes of infection though.)

How many days have you been using the Fungus Clear now?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

I started Jungle on the 11th, so that was Tuesday. It says to wait several days and do a partial water change between doses, so I gave him the next one on Friday.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Updates! The fungus/fuzzies/slime/hanging stuff seems to be gone. Between the two bigger tears there is a tiny bit of what I HOPE is new growth - it definitely looks different.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

There is something there but the tail is still getting shorter from what I see? I'll wait to see what LittleBlue has in case she spots something else that I don't.


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

STUPID FISH! I came home from school, and Zuko has done THIS to himself:










Now on top of everything else, he is biting the other fin! I've about had it with my boy.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Biting which other fin? I don't see any other damage?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

His top fin - the ends are horribly ratted, definitely looks like biting to me. 

Here's a better picture:


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

How is he doing? Is the fungus/fuzzies/slime still gone from the caudal (tail) fin? 


@lilnaugrim - I don't think the caudal fin is shorter.... I think it just looked that way from his angle in the photo. The last photos show it back to pretty much the same length that it was previously.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry, I know I'm not being very optimistic about him >.< it is difficult with the photo angles I admit but I completely understand how difficult it is to take decent pictures of our fish; you're doing a great job though!


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> How is he doing? Is the fungus/fuzzies/slime still gone from the caudal (tail) fin?


It was gone for awhile, but seems to have come back again, but much less this time. I switched him from the Stress Coat + back to the regular Prime, with an extra drop or 2.



> Sorry, I know I'm not being very optimistic about him >.< it is difficult with the photo angles I admit but I completely understand how difficult it is to take decent pictures of our fish; you're doing a great job though!


It's okay! Definitely not your fault, you've been a tremendous help. He is sometimes so camera shy, and then at other times so flashy - you never know with him. I take about 10 pictures each time and can only get 2 or 3 decent ones 

Speaking of, here are today's. Just gave him a 50% water change and a fresh dose of Jungle, so everything's a little bit blue.



















Looks like the black may be spreading. I'll try to catch him flaring later on - he wouldn't this time.

He's still acting 100% normal. Takes his pellets, swims around like the lazy dude he is, and has occasional bouts of frenzied zooming around. I put in his new filter, which immediately started screwing up the Jungle so it's now off (ran it empty for awhile just for water movement, but seemed pointless. Can turn it back on if you think it's helpful at all, but there's no carbon or sponge in there).

Thanks for everything!


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

How is he doing? 

So you've tried Aquarium salt, sulfa medication, and now you're using Jungle Fungus Clear (furan meds)..... There's a filter on the tank (usually but not right now), but no aeration. 

Hopefully, the Fungus Clear will work. If not, perhaps the next things to consider are Kanaplex (broad spectrum antibiotic) or metronidazole (treats anaerobic bacteria and parasites).


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

You can combine Furan2 with Kanamycin. Those 2 drugs actually have a synergetic effect together and they work better together rather then individually. That's what I used to cure columnaris on my betta for 10 days and it worked well. The fish did not suffer at all from the medication.

Good luck with your betta, gorgious fish!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How is he doing?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Zuko's tail has been steadily deteriorating. He seemed lethargic the past 2 weeks, and his tail continued to shorten and rot. I just returned from vacation in Florida (mother and sister diligently took care of him) and I fully expected to lose him while I was gone. He's still alive, and still doing well, but his tail is horrible. There's not much left to it, almost entirely black and ratted. He still swims and behaves normally, and my babysitters say that he has maintained a good level of energy.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

sorry for your baby, not sure if you need to use another medications or just clean water, perhaps even may be extra water changes will help. Not sure how much water changes you doing for 2.5 gall now. May be extra stress coat also will help. You have good people helping you, wait for a reply. May be another picture will help if you can posted


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## mq90910 (Mar 21, 2014)

*Same Issue*

My poor betta is going through the exact same mystery issue! The blue/green coloring and the fin rot The pictures I've posted aren't as clear but the progression I have been seeing is almost identical. I've treated with melafix and Furan 2 and nothing! I have been doing frequent water changes and am considering doing a different antibacterial treatment maybe tetracycline but I keep getting different opinions on what to use. Maybe we can help each other in terms of figuring out what has definitely not worked? It's so puzzling and stressful for both of us because I feel terrible about having to stress him with more medications and I feel terrible just watching it get worse. :-(


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## mq90910 (Mar 21, 2014)

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=375426


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

K, did you try the KanaPlex for him? Do IRC that you had bought it? I agree on the KanaPlex/Furan-2 if you want to try that. I'm sorry he's not getting any better :-(


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## daniella3d (Mar 19, 2014)

oh my...go buy some permanganate potassium, add 1/8 of a teaspoon (1 gram) to a 1 liter bottle filled with pure distilled water or osmosed water to make a base solution, shake very very well to dissolve all the PP crystals. This will be the BASE solution, never use that without diluting it to the 2ppm concentration by doing this:

then from that base solution add 2ml per liter of osmosed water aged so there is no more chlorine or chloramine in it as you cannot use a dechlorinator with PP as it will deactivate it, at same PH or very close PH and same temperature as his water. Leave the fish in this bath if possible for 1 hour. If the fish show sign of stress remove it and put it back and a new and clean tank, not in is regular tank as it may still be contaminated with the bacteria that is causing this. Never use PP with SALT, it is not a good reaction. Use it with distilled water or osmosed water only and match the temp. and PH as much as you can.

That's what I would do. Follow my advise at your own risk as PP is dangerous and it will stain skin and clothing so wear gloves. But darn it's efficient 

I think at this point since the fish seem to not respond to any antibiotics, it is a good time to go to the extreme and try a permanganate potassium bath. Just make sure to NOT use the base solution straight! it must be diluted to only 2ml per liter (2 ppm) and the fish must be watched the whole time, no break, you must watch the fish the whole time.

If you measure correctly and do only 2ppm, the fish will not suffer from the bath at all. I am now treating a fish with fin melt with this and did 3 baths, one per day. First one was 40 minutes, then the 2 others were 50 minutes each. I will skip tonight to give the fish a break and because there is a huge improvement, and tomorrow if I see it does not show more improvement I will do another one. Each time I transfer the fish into a new clean tank and desinfect the used one. You can't return the fish in an infected tank, especially if this bacteria is so resistant as it will reinfect the fish probably. I would say you can return a fish to his tank if the antibiotics was efficient to clear the bacteria, but if not it probably means that the bacterias that you have on your fish are resistant to what ever med you use, so they are still present in the tank.

I know PP can scare a lot of people but it is actually very very useful to treat any external disease, bacterias, fungus or parasites. It is a strong oxidizer but with proper care it will be the fastest treatment possible and when a bacteria move fast, sometime it is the only possible choice because it is also fast and there is no risk of creating a resistant strain of bacteria.

Good luck with your fish! I am only trying to help so please don't bite my head off for suggesting PP.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How is fishy doing?


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## KGdiva (Feb 26, 2014)

Unfortunately, he passed about a month ago. His health deteriorated to the point where he would no longer eat his pellets, so I decided to euthanize him. We gave it a strong fight, but he was just too sick.

We have a new fish now, Skittles, who is an avid bubble maker, tail biter and flaring fool. He went immediately into the school environment and adapted wonderfully.


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