# New koi spawn coming!



## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

I was beginning to feel as though I'd bitten off more than I could chew with breeding pairs, and I have more I wanted to breed at once than I was comfortable with as a beginner. But Tilli94 has agreed to lend me a hand by spawning my koi pair for me and rearing the fry! I'm incredibly excited, so wish us luck!

Here's the pretty pair.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

OMG I want their babies! yes please! Good luck on the spawn! I'm sure you'll do just fine Deanna! :-D


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## cowboy (Apr 14, 2013)

Wow amazing.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Remember, you wont see Koi F1. You will need to spawn the siblings brother to sister, good luck!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What will you see in F1 then? More solids or just marble types?


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

You will see Cambodian white with red fins, Cellophane, solids, and butterflys.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

ah okay, so basically everything that they have part of in their coloration? Are those types you mentioned set, or vary depending on the fish themselves?


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Here are the parents....





Here are the young...







See? Not one has any black like the parents.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Interesting! Thanks Darth!

Betta Genetics are so fascinating!


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I agree with Darth. My experience the is the same. Ive had the exact same thing occur when breeding koi marbles.

Why it works this way I have no idea.


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## alunjai (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm trying to breed my male koi to a marble female so find this quite interesting and not what I expected.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Marble is recessive it is also known as the " Jumping Gene" because it skips one whole generation...what is bad is when you run into double recessive...don't get me started hehehe


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Remember, Koi IS marble as is Grizzle.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Grizzle.. bleh.. trying to get that out of my cambodian line  Now koi, I wouldn't mind so much 

Pretty pairs! Good luck!


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

Hmm. Darth, Betty Splendens has different opinions on the heritability of marble and the meaning of "the jumping gene" than you do. I'm willing to bet that at least some of your fry will turn out to be marble, even if they don't appear that way right now.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I spawned a set of marbles and I got all solids for the first 4 months then roughly 1/3 went marble. It is possible they were a sibling pair because I bought them from the same seller but the seller was not the breeder and couldn't say for sure.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

when I spawn with a marble I always get some marble fry.
And jumping genes are called that because they 'jump' around and move, which causes the change in the coloring on a betta.


Marble is really easy to add to a line, getting it out is the problem(since even if a fish looks solid, it might carry the gene or even express the gene later in life).


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

I believe "jumping genes" is the casual term for Transposons (genes). It's present in Indian corn, which causes the color variation between the kernel and it when it "jumps", the kernel changes to a different color. It's hard to explain over the internet lol, but we learned about it in school.
But I can't wait to see the babies when they grow up, Deanna!


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Actually the jumping gene is named because it can be double recessive and skip generations. Like I said, I do not know it all I just know what me experiences have been with marble, I actuall had the first ones on my lap when I went with Walt to pick up a batch from Orville, orville usually shipped them but not this time it was winter..so this was my first experience with the marble bettas, you should have seen em, boy they were light tan and black beautiful! I haven't seen one yet with the color of these originals.
Some had black bodys and cellophane fins


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

Hmm.. I maybe I'm thinking of a different "jumping gene"? 
But here's an article 
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/transpos.htm 
They sound beautiful!


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Here is a tomato I bred that has the jumping gene in it.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

This is a sibling line, the stripes did not show up for the first 4 generations but I knew it was in there because I put it there.


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

DoctorWhoLuver, no, you're correct. "Jumping gene" is the term for transposons, as any web search will reveal. I am not discounting Darth's experience, but that simply is not what the gene means, and it is not what the marble gene is, according to plenty of reliable articles out there on the web.

Darth, I never discount the voice of people with experience, but I also want research or studies or articles or _something _to back up what they are saying. Can you point to any?


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

For instance:

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/barbara-mcclintock-and-the-discovery-of-jumping-34083

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposable_element

http://nippyfish.net/2009/06/11/marble-betta-fish-color-changing-genes/

http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=767

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20112908-22550.html

http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=1114

Etc.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Deanna01 said:


> DoctorWhoLuver, no, you're correct. "Jumping gene" is the term for transposons, as any web search will reveal. I am not discounting Darth's experience, but that simply is not what the gene means, and it is not what the marble gene is, according to plenty of reliable articles out there on the web.
> 
> Darth, I never discount the voice of people with experience, but I also want research or studies or articles or _something _to back up what they are saying. Can you point to any?


Only what I was taught in school, and personal experience. the term and action of this gene in Icthyology genetics were as I stated.
This gene in the plant world is classed different as is a lot of other things on genetics written for plants..the basics may be the same but the actions are way different and like I said, I have a degree in genetics so this is what I was taught and I am relaying h=this to you..it does not bother me if others have a different view or call something by another name.
I would love to go back and tell my professor he was wrong..hahaha


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

"The marble pattern exists because of genetic transposable elements, otherwise known as a "Jumping Gene". These are certain genes which are capable of moving from one location to another on an organism's chromosomes. Sometimes they will insert in places where they interfere with gene expression. This results in a cell's (and its daughter cells') inability to perform certain tasks associated with that gene. Because the 'jumping gene's' residence at a particular place in the chromosome is only temporary, the inability of the gene interfering to express itself is only temporary. This is what causes the change of pattern in a marble betta, and sometimes the complete and utter change of color. 

If a jumping gene is present and it inserts itself into a gene responsible for producing a colored pigment, it stops the production of colored pigment, and all the progeny cells will be unable to produce color. This results in a colorless patch appearing; looking like a white or cellophane patch. The reverse can happen too! If the cells are unable to produce color because the transposable genetic element is present and then the element leaves, the progeny of this cell will be able to produce color again (reverts) and a colored patch will appear." 

"One of the most recent fundamental discoveries in the science of genetics is the existence of 'transposable elements' also known as 'jumping genes'. Apparently there are certain genes which are capable of moving from one location to another on an organism's chromosomes. Sometimes they will insert in places where they interfere with gene expression. This results in a cell's (and its daughter cells') inability to perform certain tasks associated with that gene. Because the 'jumping gene's' residence at a particular place in the chromosome is only temporary, the inability of the gene interfering to express itself is only temporary.

If a jumping gene is present and it inserts itself into a gene responsible for producing a black (melano) pigment, it stops the production of black (melano), and all the progeny cells (a clone of cells) will be unable to produce black (melano). This results in a non-black patch appearing; looking like a white or cellophane patch. The reverse can happen too! If the cells are unable to produce black (melano) because the transposable genetic element is present, and the element leaves then the progeny of this cell (a clone of cells) will be able to produce black (melano) again (reverts) and a black (melano) patch will appear.

Sometimes a dark blotch on a light colored marble betta will develop a light spot in the centre. (A sot of bulls-eye effect.) This can easily be explained if you think of a clone of growing cells which first cannot produce black (melano) because of the inserted jumping gene (the light background of the fish), the jumping gene later leaves the affected melanin producing gene in the growing betta allowing black (melano production (the dark blotch) and in later growth a re-insertion of the jumping gene affecting the melanin 
production in a smaller group of cells within resulting in a inner light spot in the dark blotch.

The 'jumping gene' theory can also explain why some marbles never marble. If the jumping gene does not insert (in the case of a dark bodied fish) or leave (in the case of a light bodied fish) in any of the cells during the life or growth period of the fish then marbling will not take place.Now this also could work with other pigments....the ability to produce green, blue, steel blue and red pigments. The jumping genes would just insert themselves into genes that produce these pigments turning on of off the pigment producing ability of multiplying cells in the growing fish.

There is much evidence that jumping genes or transposable genetic elements may be responsible for the characteristic known as marble in bettas. The inheritance of the marble characteristic can be explained by this theory. But proving this theory could be difficult. There is one thing for certain. Whether or not you're interested in the genetics of marble bettas, and whatever the mechanism of inheritance may be, marble bettas are beautiful. And we can all enjoy that!

This article could not have been written without the knowledge and research of many marble enthusiasts, like Steve Saunders, Gene Lucas, and Walt Maurus.

*Some believe the trait to be a co-dominant or a partial-recessive."


- Betty Splenden

That is probably one of the easiest descriptions out there.. that is why it is called the jumping gene. It does not take someone who has a degree in genetics (really Darth? This is me you're talking to.. lol) to know the description of a _nickname_. Jumping gene is a term, a nickname and it's nicknamed for a certain action, which is the ever changing marble pattern. Marbles do not skip a generation F1.. if it's not showing in F1 it doesn't mean it skips, it's just those will show down the road, or not at all but it still has the gene.

Darth, all the time we've chatted outside of the forum I am hoping I can be a bit blunt to you.. this is strictly a subject matter


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

When I discussed this with Walt, he also discussed this with Gene, why I said it is a gene that can and will skip generations is the fact that even though you have a solid line of say blues, all of a sudden...a marble pops up..generations later..this has happened I know for a fact to more than one breeder Marbes DO in fact skip generations, ask gene.
The only other variant that is subject to this is not really a gene it is what is known a a somatic mutation and is extremely rare but it does happen and can happen in any strain or color...the variations is also subject to mutation by outside factors such as radiation and sources of UV lighting.
It was even said that the black gene we see today was induced by radiation.
Anyway, I learned what I learned in school not by reading anyone elses text and the terminology I used is right out of the class room..what I remember anyway...and yes I do have a degree.


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

Darth, having marble DNA in a line, having solids, and then having a marble show up does not mean that the marble "skipped" a generation. Genetics has obviously advanced by bounds since you got your degree. 

I am a brown-eyed woman who married a green-eyed man. We have a blue-eyed daughter who might end up having green-eyed kids herself. That does not mean that the green "skipped" a generation.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Perhaps I am not saying this right and yes I agree with what was posted in fact I can show you another situation where the jumping gene is in play in a tomato plant..this is a variegated plant, the gen can show up anywhere in the plant, roots, fruit, leaves and in most cases its laves bt on rare occasions it expresses in the fruit..

This gene expresses only when conditions are right otherwise a normal plant this is it in action and this is what the Jumping gene does.

Here it is in the plant




Here it is expressing in the fruit, now keep in mind this is a normal Berkley Tie Dye Plant out of all the normal siblings this has never resurfaced in this line again for 3 years.



Here it is expressing in the fruit, this is a very rare instance. but repeated again when this line was crossed to reduce size.




here it showed up 4 generations later..it JUMPED.



So this was always my understanding of what Jumping gene meant.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

Ok De let me say it a different way...it "expressed" in later gens.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

No one is denying that you may not see marbling in every fish, but in order for it to appear in the line means the genes are there. A gene isn't popping up out of the blue.. it's there whether you see it in every fish in every generation or not.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

Like I sad in another post, Marble it's easy to breed _into_ a line but hard to get rid of because it doesn't always show. 
When you breed marbles they will throw solids/cellophanes/multies/butterflies/marbles. with the rates of fry loss and culling before colors have a chance to show(let alone marble out) you may not see marbles in your spawn, since there is such variety and it's highly unlikely you'll get a wholly marble spawn.
Those solids/multies/butterflies/cellos will carry the marble gene, and it may not show up for another generation or three.
But marble x marble doesn't /make/ it skip anymore than breeding to a solid.


Just like you speak from your experience and what you've been taught, so do I. Jumping genes are covered in middle school.
I used breeding marbles(my current and first spawn at the time) to write a short paper on the jumping gene and how it was expressed visually with marbles.


Recessive genes can skip generations(like short fins or double tail) but because(_from my experience_) I saw some marbled fry from a marble x marble, and also (roughly the same smaller number) in a marble x non-marble spawn I've worked with it being '_partial dominant/_recessive' for all intents and purposes.


Links and quotes have already been posted multiple times so I won't bother posting more now.​


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Darth said:


> Remember, Koi IS marble as is Grizzle.


Grizzle is a bad pastel... not a marble. Came from pastel breeding and Sieg created them.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Hmmmm, interesting discussion. 
I agree with BB that grizzle is not caused by marble nor is it related to marbles. I often get them from cambodian crossings - without marble genes.

I haven't actually bred for marbles. In fact I always try to clean them out of my lines. Perhaps this (marble x solid) explains why I always get some marbles in every spawn for generations. 
On the other hand I bred a pair of super blacks with marble genes (2 unrelated black marbles pairs. Inbred and cross bred the 2 pairs) a few times and always got mostly marbles (if not all) in each batch (F1). Then continued F2 and produced the same - mostly marbles. I lost this line and now am starting a new black line (1 unrelated pair) that doesn't show marbling. Some of the fry turned out marble. 

I don't know enough about marbles to give valid explanations. But I experienced the opposite to what Darth experienced. I'm not trying to defy Darth, I just want all the facts/experiences be known so we can all learn from them. . . . . Just thought I ought to throw it out there. 

Is this possible; marbles genes becomes too recessive if continually bred for that it will jump generations?
Perhaps the best explanation is that marbles are too unpredictable. IDK . . . . .


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

It might have been a lot more recessive when first bred for, but now it's pretty set in the genes of many bettas out there. Jumping genes aren't called that because they 'jump generatons' though. Jumping genes 'jump' around on the chromosomes blocking certain colors from showing up in some places(giving that marbled look, that changes when they 'jump').


On the note of grizzles- I believe BB is right(I remember reading that somewhere when) but I did notice they showed up in my marble spawns(along with a every other color under the sun xD). 

Hmm,
This is is making me want to get back into working with them, there are a few things I'd like to try/test.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

From my perspective, this turned into betta genetics 101. Thanks, now I know what to look for when breeding bettas.


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