# 2 concerns about my new betta



## sega dude (Apr 6, 2010)

I got a new crowntail betta from petsmart last night. His name is Redsnow. I have a few concerns about him.

1. He seems to struggle to eat his pellets. He grabs them but can't seem to keep them in his mouth. I got him Wardley betta food from wal-mart. This food here. Should I get flakes instead? 

2. His pump is too strong. He gets blown around by it. So i only keep it on for minutes at a time. Should I try to get a less powerful pump or forget about it. Also does the pump hurt him since he gets blown around by it?

Thanks!


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Try crushing the pellets. Wardley's are very big pellets and he may be too small to eat them. You can also try other brands of pellets to see if you find a smaller one.

What kind of pump is it? There is probably a way to buffer it but I would need to know what type of set up you have.


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## sega dude (Apr 6, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> What kind of pump is it? There is probably a way to buffer it but I would need to know what type of set up you have.


It appears to be a great western trading (gwt) model 12200. Its round and the tank sits on top of it.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm not familiar with that. Is it an air pump or a filter of some sort? What size is the tank.


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## sega dude (Apr 6, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> I'm not familiar with that. Is it an air pump or a filter of some sort? What size is the tank.


Its an air pump. I'm not sure what size the tank is but I think its about 3 litters. That's about how much water I put in it.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Try getting one of those valves that restrict the air flow... can't remember what they are called. Your air pump may be too powerful for a small tank like that.


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## andreig09 (Dec 20, 2009)

try to put something at the exit of the pump to low the power


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## mysquishy (Mar 12, 2010)

You could try those airstones to put at the end of the tube. http://www.google.com/products?q=ai...esult_group&ct=image&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQzAMwAg


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## Betta Fish Bob (Dec 31, 2009)

Yeah, you do not need to stress out a new fish with too much water flow.
In nature they live in stagnant water sometimes, and prefer little flow.


The way your tank is set up can you place something there that the water hits first before it goes into the rest of the tank, slowing down the flow?
I would get another filter if you can not slow this one down.

1fish2fish is right about the pellet size.
Good advice there.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Personally I would recommend a bigger tank. Call me picky, but 3 liters is too small. I recommend at least 2.5 gallons (5 gallons optimal) for better housing. (I believe 3 liters is less than a gallon). 

If it's an airpump, you could restrict the air-tubing by squeezing it, tying a rubber band, and it should slow down the air.


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## sega dude (Apr 6, 2010)

Thanks for all your help guys. I crushed to pellets and he seemed to be able to eat them better. I'm not sure he likes them tho. What food do you give your betta? Also when I wake up in the morning and go downstairs to see Redsnow hes hanging out at the top of the tank. Does this mean hes hungry? Thanks again for all your help. Im gonna try the airstones btw.


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## BerkB33 (Oct 23, 2009)

Live black worms (tubifex), frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms (mosquito larvae), also frozen beefheart...and pellets too. Live food really makes 'em healthy and grow faster!!!! 

What's the water temp? Sluggish behavior can mean he's cold. Water temp. should be 78-82 degrees F. Bigger tank could help as well.

Read that bettas will take the food in it's mouth and "soften" the pellet by chewing and "water logging" it. All 4 of mine do it with the Hikari Betta Gold pellets.


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## secuono (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't understand why people buy 'betta food.' Just buy tropical fish flakes, give frozen blood worms and his will be very happy.
I have noticed that none of my fish, betta or any other kind, like pellets. They all hate them, even when crushed. I would say you should get flakes and mash them lightly, so they are about as big as the letter "O" is on here, if not a tad smaller. It makes it easy for them to grab and swallow. They don't have to worry about tearing them to eat. Also, he is a new fish, he may not want to eat the first 2 days, so try flakes and then try a frozen blood worm. 
Pellets are hard, sharp foods, not fun to eat...


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I've never had a problem with pellets.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Well is he swimming at the top? Bettas generally hang out at the top, unless there is reason for them to swim all over the tank (mine like to explore around their plants). However if he's not swimming, and more like gently floating around, you may need to check up on him. 

Also, is the tank about .5 gallons? 



> Pellets are hard, sharp foods, not fun to eat...


Why do you say so? And the hard part is easily countered. Pre-soak pellets for at least 30 seconds. This also heavily contributes to pellets dryness, so when soaked, they're less dry and therefore less chance of constipation. Haven't seen constipation in about 6 or so months since pre-soaking pellets in garlic juice. Bettas seem to adore garlic juice for reasons I can't explain... (I hate garlic, myself). Of course, if my own bettas really hated pellets, I would probably use flakes as well. 

Betta food isn't expensive, so I'm all "meh." About it. Why not? Hikari Bio pellets have been doing me good so far.


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## sega dude (Apr 6, 2010)

Redsnow still wont eat. I got him the Betta bio-gold pellets. Im thinking he still thinks its the other pellets. Should I get flakes?


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## iamtetsuo (Dec 10, 2009)

A 3 liter tank is a 0.8 Gallon tank, which is too small for a Betta

2 gallon is the minimum I would suggest, personally I have a 3 gallon tank

As for your feeding question, some Betta's are very picky about their food. They will eventually eat what you offer them, but if you can find a brand that they will gobble down all the better! Try pre-soaking your pellets (use a spoon or water bottle cap with some tank water). This allows the pellets to soften up making it easier for the fish to chew them up.

My Betta loves Wardleys but he still has a hard time eating the bigger pellets (I pour a bunch into my hand and then pick out the smallest pellets for him)


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

2 words: SPONGE FILTER. If you position it so the outlet (the part that bubbles) protrudes from the water, you'll get the best of both worlds...biological/mechanical filtration with practically no water movement. Bettas tend to really like this set-up. 

I disagree with some others about sizes necessary to house your betta. If you like your 3L container, that's fine, but you'll have to mess around with ways to try to keep the water above 76 degrees F. Additionally, I recommend very frequent water changes. I change my <5G containers' water at a rate of about 50% per day.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

I still recommend a bigger tank as well. That may help him.

Mister Sparkle, I'm more concerned about the physical "needs" (if you want to call it that) of the betta. I like giving them more room to swim around, especially in regards with their long, fanciful tails.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

It's all relative. The idea of "needs" is an extremely fluid term. A betta doesn't really "need" a great deal of room. Whether that's something they tend to appreciate...well, who wouldn't? lol

Breeders keep their bettas in 1/2-gallon containers. There is no substrate, no decoration, and rarely is there filtration. However, they have pristine water (a lot of breeders will do 50-100% TWICE a day!), ideal feed, and proper temps. We're talking about fish worth a lot of money here! It would be hard to argue that the breeders aren't meeting their fish's needs. In fact, just seeing them, you'd be hard-pressed to identify any symptoms of stress or unhappiness in their stock. After all, stressed and unhappy bettas aren't very prolific breeders. Even ignoring the genetic superiority of their fish for a moment, I'd wager that his stock is going to be healthier than yours.

So, again, it's all relative. In MY opinion, water and temperature are a lot more important to a betta's well-being, and their "needs", than are space and aesthetics. I've kept so many bettas in containers smaller than 2.5 gallons which lived with us as long as 5-years, making constant bubble nests and showing no signs of stress, that I have a hard time seeing arguments for a "large-aquarium-requirement" to be anything more than anthropomorphism. I'm not arguing that people "need" to keep them in smaller containers, just that there are more important needs to focus on. Again, this comes to water and temperature. 

8) Relativity!


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## PinkDiamond (Apr 21, 2009)

secuono said:


> I don't understand why people buy 'betta food.' Just buy tropical fish flakes, give frozen blood worms and his will be very happy.


I have to disagree with this. Bettas are strictly carnivores - they feed on insects and zooplankton only in the wild. Tropical fish flakes are formulated with plant matter as well as protein sources, and bettas have absolutely no use for plant matter. A pellet specifically formulated for bettas is totally necessary if you're not feeding them frozen/live foods, like daphnia, glassworms, bloodworms, tubifex worms, brine shrimp or mysis shrimp

I strongly agree with a minimum of a 2.5 gallon tank as well - all of my bettas are in 5 gallons or more and are better off for it. A dog will survive if kept in it's kennel it's entire life and never let out to move, but that doesn't mean it's ok. Bettas are not sedentary fish - they are meant to swim around, and can do so quite quickly, so it's only fair that they be given a tank with room to do this.

Best of luck with your betta!


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

PinkDiamond said:


> A dog will survive if kept in it's kennel it's entire life and never let out to move, but that doesn't mean it's ok.


This analogy sounds good, but it is hardly the same thing. Keeping a dog in a kennel will cause serious physical problems in a very short amount of time. Keeping a betta in a 1/2-gallon bowl won't. Again, your desire to have your fish in something larger is admirable, and makes for more manageable care on your part. I'm glad that you feel that you are providing the best care possible for your fish. That's great! 

But no false analogy or slippery slope is going to get us around the fact that a small space doesn't hurt bettas. The best argument you can use to recommend a larger aquarium is that it will be easier to heat properly, and that it will be less labor-intensive on the keeper. Trying to equate it to cruelty is just dishonest.


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## ecoprincess (Jul 16, 2009)

My Betta doesnt like pellets either. Seems he has a hard time eating them, and his poop is HUGE 

I feed mine the Betta Flakes and worm combo. He seems to like it....altho the more i read the more i want to try home made food for him. He is a little on the small side.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

For your (Mister Sparkle) previous post, I have no problem with breeders using smaller containers because, well, they know what they're doing. Drip systems and/or clean FRESH water. I agree with what you said about what they do. However they're not housed in them permanently, they are simply kept in there for simplicity of the breeder. 100 2.5 gallons? Unfavorable, but I would imagine most of us thing the same thing. 

I get what you're saying and you have your strong points on it. However, my opinion stands - I prefer to keep bettas in larger tanks for their physical needs (and yes, I say needs, muahahaha!). 

I'm glad you raised that point though. It's good for a betta owner to see both sides of the "tank-that-is-too-small?" story, although I will drag them to the larger side anyways 


Also, if anyone can explain "large poop size", I'd love to know what causes the size of poop as well. Off topic, but still curious, haha.


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

Mister Sparkle said:


> This analogy sounds good, but it is hardly the same thing. Keeping a dog in a kennel will cause serious physical problems in a very short amount of time. Keeping a betta in a 1/2-gallon bowl won't. Again, your desire to have your fish in something larger is admirable, and makes for more manageable care on your part. I'm glad that you feel that you are providing the best care possible for your fish. That's great!
> 
> But no false analogy or slippery slope is going to get us around the fact that a small space doesn't hurt bettas. The best argument you can use to recommend a larger aquarium is that it will be easier to heat properly, and that it will be less labor-intensive on the keeper. Trying to equate it to cruelty is just dishonest.


What. There are a number of problems, physical or not, that come with this misconception you're supporting; that small spaces don't hurt bettas and promoting the effort to upgrade is only a selfish endeavor which serves no purpose other than to benefit the owner, not the fish itself. 

How often do you walk into a pet store and see bright, jubilant bettas swimming about their pint-sized containers looking how they're supposed to? You don't. Deprived of any area to swim (how ironic), bettas become listless and bleak - obvious indications that their prosperity is severely stifled. It's undeniable, and to say otherwise is ignorant. 

Your condescension aside, it certainly is admirable to want to provide the most for your betta. The only thing cruel and dishonest here is your input.


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## sega dude (Apr 6, 2010)

He's in a 1 gallon tank with a light and less powerful pump now.


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

I'd like to clarify that I'm all for practical setups for breeders as long as they're able to meet conditional requirements - which they do. They're kept under said conditions with the intent to sell and / or relocate.

The issue I have is with those advocating these same conditions as a means of permanently housing a betta.


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## ecoprincess (Jul 16, 2009)

careful with the light *Sega*, depends on what kind u have but it could raise the temp enough during the day that when u shut it off at night its too much of a temp drop. 

*XXabc* lmao....true right? ive only had this problem with pellets...i didnt think they were digesting properly. -shrugs- not sure tho....


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Incandescent lights have reputation to slowly raise tank temperatures the longer they're left on, if that's what you're talking about. 

I'm not sure it's indigestion though, they don't seem to have any symptoms of bloating/constipation or anything. Scary stuff, lol!

Kittles +1


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

Kittles said:


> How often do you walk into a pet store and see bright, jubilant bettas swimming about their pint-sized containers looking how they're supposed to? You don't. Deprived of any area to swim (how ironic), bettas become listless and bleak - obvious indications that their prosperity is severely stifled. It's undeniable, and to say otherwise is ignorant.
> 
> The only thing cruel and dishonest here is your input.


We aren't talking about 1-pint cup here. We're talking about 1/2-gallon + (that would be quadruple the size you are discussing, and up). Furthermore, what you see in your pet store is not an example of adequate care. It would be a stretch to even consider it "bare minimum" care. The appearance you describe is more appropriately ascribed to poor water quality and inadequate heat than to the size of the cup. Your false sense of superiority aside, it really boils down to managing conditions. No betta I've ever kept could be described as "listless and bleak." And that includes volumes ranging from 1/2-gallon to 40 Gallons. In that 40-gallon, I often had 2 or more males in the same aquarium, with no aggression difficulties...that's another one of the "rules" which aren't necessarily written in stone.

With all due respect, you can hop down off your high horse and go kick rocks, kiddo!


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

Kittles said:


> I'd like to clarify that I'm all for practical setups for breeders as long as they're able to meet conditional requirements - which they do. They're kept under said conditions with the intent to sell and / or relocate.
> 
> The issue I have is with those advocating these same conditions as a means of permanently housing a betta.


Those are the conditions that they keep their permanent stock in, as well.


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## BerkB33 (Oct 23, 2009)

As, what I consider, a "serious" aquarist I strive to provide my fish with an optimum "home" so they may flourish and live a healthy, long life. As a breeder, which I'm not, there would have to be a different "approach" to the "business" that is striving to profit and continue operation. No doubt the breeder must maintain favorable conditions for his stock to survive and reproduce...and thereby make a profit! However, is it sensible to believe that our breeder is providing "optimum" living conditions for his *ENTIRE *farm's stock? Or is the farm using what resourses it has, to be as effective as possible, and still remain profitable? The "serious" aquarist does not operate under "business" parameters...nor does the hobbyist worry about his profit/loss statement!!!! Here comes the corn...but IMO it has truth...Mother Nature put this fish (the wild version, anyway) on earth to roam it's waters freely...we as hobbyists, when providing these animals with "homes" have, IMO, an obligation to come as close to "Mother Nature" as possible, therefore, giving your betta a "larger" space with which to live can only be coming closer to the way Mother Nature intended it. Pint, quart, 1/2 gallon containers and the like "suffice" but are a far cry from optimal! Just an opinion. :-D


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

I can appreciate your opinion. However, I will say this...I'm not really talking about "farms", which were the origin for a lot of this board's fish. I'm talking about established, reputable, careful BREEDERS, who are selling fish for $25+ each. Clearly, they are going to find the most economical means of providing for all of their stock's needs and for ideal breeding conditions. However, they will not get away with ignoring certain needs, in order to save a buck.

One consistent natural characteristic in nearly ALL betta habitats is water which is basically completely still. I find it ironic that so many people focus entirely on a "need" for space, which is not a major concern to an adult male betta, while seeing nothing wrong with filtering an aquarium w/an external power filter whose outflow current would be considered untenable to a betta in a natural environment. This is to say nothing of undergravel filters, which are just a bad choice in general, and other "current-generators" such as bubbling decorations and air stones. Perhaps, if you provided the former without ignoring the latter, I might just buy into the idea that you really ARE interested in providing an ideal environment for your fish. However, in my opinion, this is rarely the case.


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

Congratulations, Mister Sparkle, for being able to care for your bettas adequately under the conditions you do as it's something I'm sure most of us here aren't capable of for any number of reasons, myself included. But, realize that you're an exception from the masses of 'hobbyists' who, unaware of proper care, are only exposed to the promoted ideologies of the pet stores they roam, thus lead to believe it's acceptable to emulate the already poorly emulated and misinterpreted "breeder's setup." Clearly a misleading lie, but when fish aren't exactly looked at as equal as far as human pets go, people won't put in the effort to see otherwise and remain sheepish to these misconceptions. After all, it's just a fish. 

Big BerkB33 said it well. There's clearly a hierarchy in the realm of fishkeeping, and I don't think the conditions employed by those at the top can be expected to be employed by those that are inferior, if you will. That is, a breeders setup and routine cannot reasonably be (expected to be) done by a college student, or parentally-attached child. This was my unclear implication when I wrote my last post to which you responded that 'Those are the conditions that _they_ keep their permanent stock in, as well.' _They_ being the key word here because I'm assuming you're referring to the breeder or the likes whereas I was originally referring to the more common, everyday 'hobbyist'. The same hobbyist you said "shouldn't try to do what I do" in a separate thread which goes on to prove my point that certain conditions and expectations need to remain separate by hierarchy. 

Basically, we the masses must utilize our own conveniences and practicalities. Even if it means a larger tank and a filter, the fish are getting treatment of equal quality when compared to those of a breeder. God forbid they have more room to swim. I also see this in no way being selfish like you'd previously insinuated. It's not about the owner, it's about the betta, and how one may be able to provide the best given their circumstances.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Mister Sparkle said:


> Those are the conditions that they keep their permanent stock in, as well.


I completely disagree. I've spoken or read forums to/from betta breeders before. The ones they sell are in clean containers. The ones they have personal interests in do not stay in those conditions, they stay in much larger, permanent (5gallons+ on the norm, give or take a handful of breeders) tanks, well taken care of. Or so I often see. Breeding is all a part of the betta hobby, not job, excluding farms.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

By "typical", I mean that the "typical" hobbyist doesn't expect to perform daily water changes. But even a newbie CAN do it! As to uninformed people being sold a setup as "low-maintenance" when it is quite the opposite, I couldn't agree with you more! 

Yet, for the person who only decides to get a betta for the REASON that it is possible to keep it in a 1-gallon cube, and they are not in a position to go larger for whatever reasons they might have, it is important that they understand what kind of maintenance that setup will take, rather than to chastise them for that perceived "cruelty". 

Saying that the larger aquarium is better for the keeper is not equated to deeming such a move as "selfish", and I'm sorry that you took it that way. Rather, it is about creating a "buffer" for lapses and mistakes that new aquarists are bound to make. If you have space, and you have the desire for a larger aquarium, all signs point to a size upgrade as an ideal move for you. However, why you would opt for an external power filter instead of a less expensive, easier to maintain and more desirable (for the betta) sponge filter slightly modified in such a way as to keep the water still is beyond me. If you are going to go to such lengths to provide more space because it's "about the betta," then why not go one more step and give him standing water such as he is naturally inclined to seek? 

Recommending a larger aquarium to a new betta-owner is just fine. I would just like to see it done for the proper reasons...and "cruelty" is not one of those reasons. Yes, it's cruel to keep a betta in a gallon of water with 2.0 ppm ammonia levels, which will happen if someone doesn't change the water in that small container on a frequent and regular basis. However, if there's no ammonia or nitrite in the water, temps stay in the range of 78-82 degrees, and he has an appropriate amount of food and something to flare at once in a while, there's no REAL reason to view that living space as inadequate, much less to term it "cruelty". 

Tell the new betta owner the REAL REASONS that larger aquariums can be better, and that might convince them to upgrade. Don't try to shame them into it. If they are absolutely in love w/ the 1-gallon cube they got at PetCo., then tell them they are going to have to work harder to maintain proper care for their betta and send them my way. We're not talking about a "hierarchy". Any newbie with OCD could do daily water changes...but they wouldn't be "typical". 

BTW...if you decide to get a sponge filter, they are CHEAP and readily available online. It really is worthwhile, and I'm confident you'll see an even more content betta in your aquarium.


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## BerkB33 (Oct 23, 2009)

Mister Sparkle said:


> I can appreciate your opinion. However, I will say this...I'm not really talking about "farms", which were the origin for a lot of this board's fish. I'm talking about established, reputable, careful BREEDERS, who are selling fish for $25+ each. Clearly, they are going to find the most economical means of providing for all of their stock's needs and for ideal breeding conditions. However, they will not get away with ignoring certain needs, in order to save a buck.
> 
> One consistent natural characteristic in nearly ALL betta habitats is water which is basically completely still. I find it ironic that so many people focus entirely on a "need" for space, which is not a major concern to an adult male betta, while seeing nothing wrong with filtering an aquarium w/an external power filter whose outflow current would be considered untenable to a betta in a natural environment. This is to say nothing of undergravel filters, which are just a bad choice in general, and other "current-generators" such as bubbling decorations and air stones. Perhaps, if you provided the former without ignoring the latter, I might just buy into the idea that you really ARE interested in providing an ideal environment for your fish. However, in my opinion, this is rarely the case.


You've seemed to have deviated from the original issue which was whether or not 1/2 gallon "container" was an "optimal" environment for a betta fish. My argument and opinion is that it is NOT. Your last post discusses the amount of water flow suitable for whatever size tank? You have no issue with me...I agree that bettas, for the most part, do not enjoy a lot of water movement. There are ALWAYS individual exceptions. 

You also referred to the "serious" aquarist as "focusing entirely on the 'need' for space..." and insinuating that there were no other parameters being met with regard to the rest of the betta's living "requirements." Wrong! Everyone that has communicated with me at this site has the betta's health and well fair as their main concern. For you to join the forum... and on the same day make comments as you have...IMO...is extremely LOW BUDGET! ;-) These folks are here trying to enjoy the hobby they've chosen...not be critiqued by a self proclaimed "betta aristocrat."


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Mister Sparkle, what you say is very interesting. It's very _technical. _Lots of what you say are technical aspects of hobbying. Cruelty is a further step, but here it's _very_ common for the poster to be in engaged in pathos-talk, or emotional/persuasive talk. But of course, it's not solely that. There is technical info (infused with pathos, maybe on occasion), but as I can see, it's not technical enough. 

I know I prefer persuasive talk over technical talk (but both will always be included, as technical is usually hard-info). I see betta keeping more as a hobby, not as a job to keep on running.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

xxabc said:


> I completely disagree. I've spoken or read forums to/from betta breeders before. The ones they sell are in clean containers. The ones they have personal interests in do not stay in those conditions, they stay in much larger, permanent (5gallons+ on the norm, give or take a handful of breeders) tanks, well taken care of. Or so I often see. Breeding is all a part of the betta hobby, not job, excluding farms.


PetCo's veiltails come from farms. The extremely beautiful and specialized fish that you see on aquabid, from breeders in Thailand for example, are not from farms...NOR are they from hobby-breeders. If you have a male betta, and some females, you can keep them in a couple 5- or 10-gallon aquariums without much difficulty. If you have 50+ breedable male lines, and 250+ females to match them with, that isn't even feasible. They wait for a female to fill up with eggs, match them up with the right male who is making bubble-nests like there's no tomorrow, and then put them both into the same "breeding tank". No sooner are the eggs laid than the female is removed. Until the fry hatch, the male will stay with them. But, once they hatch, back to his 1/2-gallon the pretty boy will go. From the breeding tank, they will be moved to their own containers while they grow their finnage. Most females will be culled. Farms are nowhere near as careful as the creators of the beautiful, award-winning lines are. And they really do make a living out of it.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree that a person that gets a betta and keeps it in a small container needs to understand that the water should be changed frequently to keep the fish healthy. As someone who keeps their bettas in smaller containers, I waws criticized, not on this forum but on another one which will remain anonymous. I keep up with my water changes and take the best care that I can of my bettas. I was told that I was abusing my fish! Right now, I keep my females in gallon containers and my males are kept in 1.5, 2 and 2.5 gallon containers. I do believe, however, that they are happier with more space. My Merlot proved that. When I moved him from a gallon container to a 2.5 gallon, he was much more active and built bubblenests.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

BerkB33 said:


> You've seemed to have deviated from the original issue which was whether or not 1/2 gallon "container" was an "optimal" environment for a betta fish.
> 
> These folks are here trying to enjoy the hobby they've chosen...not be critiqued by a self proclaimed "betta aristocrat."


No. The original issue was whether a 1/2 gallon was CRUEL or even inadequate, not whether it was optimal. 

Your cries of "elitist" are equally deviant from the fact at hand, which was that this discussion turned quickly into a "you have to have 2.5-gallons or more because anything less is cruelty." If someone enjoys keeping bettas in 1-gallon nano-quariums, and they do it successfully, do they deserve to be run out of Dodge by the rest of you? I don't think they do. In fact, it appears to this observer that the board is already operating in a somewhat elitist fashion. Hence your "you just joined..." comment. THAT'S elitism, my friend. Not to mention a term like "low budget"...now, why would "low budget" be considered a bad thing? Unless you're an elitist, that is.

How passive agressive of you to try to twist this whole discussion around to be something it isn't. To reiterate, I have nothing against larger aquariums, or even with having less-than-ideal filtration in it. I do have a problem with people inappropriately stating opinions or preferences as facts or requirements, and trying to use accusations of cruelty to bolster their shaky case. When those people aren't exactly able to speak authoritatively on the subject, and just fire off the hip at naive views of how things "have to" be, I let them know they're off base. 

The OP in this discussion was trying to enjoy the hobby he recently chose, not be chastised collectively by a bunch of GreenPeace hopefuls. Your take on this discussion is so incorrect that I don't even know why I bothered to respond to it. You need to go back and re-read it.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

xxabc said:


> Mister Sparkle, what you say is very interesting. It's very _technical. _Lots of what you say are technical aspects of hobbying. Cruelty is a further step, but here it's _very_ common for the poster to be in engaged in pathos-talk, or emotional/persuasive talk. But of course, it's not solely that. There is technical info (infused with pathos, maybe on occasion), but as I can see, it's not technical enough.
> 
> I know I prefer persuasive talk over technical talk (but both will always be included, as technical is usually hard-info). I see betta keeping more as a hobby, not as a job to keep on running.


 
Nothing but respect for you xxabc...I think you and I have provided a perfect example for how to see things differently, but respectfully. I guess I do have a somewhat technical view of things...and I appreciate the aesthetics, as well. Or else, I wouldn't be here!


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

Mister Sparkle, I like you.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

dramaqueen said:


> I agree that a person that gets a betta and keeps it in a small container needs to understand that the water should be changed frequently to keep the fish healthy. As someone who keeps their bettas in smaller containers, I waws criticized, not on this forum but on another one which will remain anonymous. I keep up with my water changes and take the best care that I can of my bettas. I was told that I was abusing my fish! Right now, I keep my females in gallon containers and my males are kept in 1.5, 2 and 2.5 gallon containers. I do believe, however, that they are happier with more space. My Merlot proved that. When I moved him from a gallon container to a 2.5 gallon, he was much more active and built bubblenests.


 Thank you! I think that really is the crux of the whole matter. I certainly couldn't argue about whether Merlot preferred his larger aquarium, as he's your fish...But I'm sure that his "needs" were met adequately prior to the move! A good keeper will make it work, whatever the conditions. I've known some bettas that just couldn't handle the 40-gallon. Of course, we're talking extremes here, but I think we can see eye to eye.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

Kittles said:


> Mister Sparkle, I like you.


Growing pretty fond of you, too, Kittles! :lol:


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Well then Mister Sparkles, I'm gonna leave it to you for the plain ol' technical talk with the newer to-be hobbyists. I'm going to stick with my side


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think what it boils down to is how well you take care of your fish no matter what size container it's in. The person that said I was cruel to my fish thought that anything less than a 5 gallon tank was cruel. I just don't have the money or space for all 11 of mine to have their own 5 gallon heated, filtered tank.
And please, lets respect each others' opinions, even if we disagree.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

xxabc said:


> Well then Mister Sparkles, I'm gonna leave it to you for the plain ol' technical talk with the newer to-be hobbyists. I'm going to stick with my side


It's a deal!;-)


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## BerkB33 (Oct 23, 2009)

Mister Sparkle said:


> This analogy sounds good, but it is hardly the same thing. Keeping a dog in a kennel will cause serious physical problems in a very short amount of time. Keeping a betta in a 1/2-gallon bowl won't. Again, your desire to have your fish in something larger is admirable, and makes for more manageable care on your part. I'm glad that you feel that you are providing the best care possible for your fish. That's great!
> 
> But no false analogy or slippery slope is going to get us around the fact that a small space doesn't hurt bettas. The best argument you can use to recommend a larger aquarium is that it will be easier to heat properly, and that it will be less labor-intensive on the keeper. Trying to equate it to cruelty is just dishonest.


Truthfully, I'm not sure why I bother with you either, but since you gave a parting shot, here's mine. It's a personal scenario that took place during my ventures in to betta keeping. Purchased a yellow VT, not a $25+ betta, just a genetically inferior $3 model, anyway this "guy" had, as do the majority of the betta population in homes today, apparently spent much time in a "small container." His fins had "grown" while in these "less than adequate" conditions (IMO). The anal fin had developed this way for so long that it left them permanently "deformed." Now, I've purchased other bettas that had some "temporary" problems and given a "larger habitat" those seemed to "swim" the "wrinkles" out of the fins...however the yellow VT has not been that lucky. I've had him for about 6 months now...the fins are irreversibly damaged. IMO, the culprit was an extended cramped living environment. So...to say that it is "cruelty" to keep a betta in a 1/2 gallon or less...IMO is VERY TRUE. I'm sure you'll "slice up" this analogy as well, but, how'd you like to live in a porta-potty? Better yet...people CAN live in their cars...could that be considered cruel? :lol: Bottomline...the fish is "happier" and in more of an *optimum *living environment when a larger habitat is provided.


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

I get spooked every time I see this thread has a new post. Just a little.


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## BerkB33 (Oct 23, 2009)

It's ok, Kittles. I'm just argumentative! :lol:


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

Your yellow betta may very well have suffered from cramped conditions, but it wasn't anything even close to a half-gallon.


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