# Betta breeding and genetics



## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

Hi all, 

Before I begin, I want to set up a kind of disclaimer - I have zero interest in breeding fish for myself. I don't want to take risks, and frankly, I don't have enough time and money to maintain a fry or condition the breeding pair. 

However, I'm very interested in the methods of breeding - I know there has to be more than one tried-and-true method. I'm also wondering about genetic diseases or physical traits that are considered "undesirable." If you can, do you back-breed the parents? 

Is there any concerns that arise from breeding siblings or other relatives? 

Is there any good, informative links where I can look up more on my own? 

I'm also a horse person, and there are inherent risks with each breed. For example certain Quarter Horses suffer from a paralytic genetic disorder called HYPP. Horses lose all control of their muscles and go into a HYPP attack, when they basically have a seizure. 

Now, somehow connecting horses to fish, are there risks of genetic disorders associated with each type of fish? 

(I think I'm so interested in all this because I'm a biology major and breed Daphnia for science experiments!)


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## vilmarisv (Apr 17, 2010)

Breeding methods:
http://bettysplendens.com/articles/catview.imp?catid=855

Some info on genetics:
http://watershed3.tripod.com/types.html#allele

Desirable/Undesirable traits on show fish according to the IBC:
http://www.fish-keeper.net/worldofbettas/index.php?showtopic=948

Info by fin type:
http://www.fish-keeper.net/worldofbettas/index.php?showforum=59

As for breeding siblings, it depends. If you're line breeding to improve the quality of that line or work on a specific trait in that line, it's actually preferrable.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Vils links are great. I would also add 
www.bettaterritory.nl
www.bettas-jimsonnier.com

Undesireable traits can sometimes vary by who your talking to. A good example would be the rose tail trait. Many people think rose tails are pretty but a lot of people don't think they should be bred because of the genetic issues going on behind the scenes so to speak.

Generally the most common undesireable traits are bent spines, short bodies, narrow dorsals, thin fins and weak rays, not enough ray branching, lack of full spread (when talking about HMs),uneven or missing scales, swim bladder issues, and any other obvious deformities.

Breeding sib to sib and father/daughter mother/son is common but should be done with caution as too much inbreeding can begin to cause highly undesirable traits. A breeder I know found out that too much in breeding caused his fish to begin to loose ventral fins or develop two ventral fins on one side etc, (other deformities can become present as well).

Betta splendens are all the same species so there's not really any one disease that one betta gets over another like HYPP in QHs but to go along with your analogy I guess you could say that some lines throw more defects than others. These would be lines that are severely inbred or just fish that shouldn't be bred in the first place.


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## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

This is all awesome information. Thanks! I just spent the last 45 minutes reading about this. There was a lot I actually didn't know about betta genetics, so it was really cool to learn about the dominant/recessive traits. 

Is there a way to see if a fish is aggressive by, say, his color? Back when I kept four bettas at home, we had an albino danio with each betta. The only danios that got injured or killed were the ones housed with the red bettas (typically, we couldn't get them out in time). Ever since then, we've never put a danio in with our reds (and we haven't gotten new bettas at home in two years, since a disease of some sort wiped out the entire tank twice).


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Color has nothing to do with aggression that I'm aware of


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## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

Haha, that's what I thought! My dad thought different, though, and refused to put anything in with the reds.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Most bettas can't be kept with other fish and only one danio with a betta is a recipe for disasteer because the betta will defend his territory.


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## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

I know that now. If only I knew that back then. 

I'd assume that temperament is genetic? If the father is foul-mannered, could it be passed down to the fry?


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm not really sure. Most breeders want aggressive fish (i.e. ones that flare) especially to show and sell, however too much aggression is a bad thing (because the fish won't breed). So some breeders tend to like nicer fish, some meaner.

Personally I want to see a male that flares and builds nests but knows how to treat a female right and a female who is respectful of the male. 

In my own spawn right now I'm seeing some fry (both males and females) that are quite aggressive and some that are very timid. Both parents were very.. um.. confident? They were pretty peaceful when breeding so I wouldn't want to call them aggressive but they also did not back down from each other or other fish. It leads me to believe that temperament has to be really bred for.

There are fighting plakats that are hugely aggressive, so much so that they must be kept from other fish entirely. They've been selectively bred not for color or finnage but for aggression for hundreds of years so in that case it is safe to say that temperament will be passed down and any non-aggressive fry will be culled to keep that trait strong.

Most show/popular betta types (VT, HM, CT, PK, etc) are being bred for type and not temperament so it's very wishy washy.

I hope I'm not muddying the waters.. gotta run off to class now but I'll try to write more when I get back. If you didn't know I'm a total genetics nerd


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## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

Ha, it's okay! If becoming a zookeeper doesn't work out, I really want to go into animal genetics. So it's super great that I have someone else to talk to about this and learn some more on my own. 

As you said, aggression is desired. However, is it possible to breed for aggression but not an inclination to fight? I know that's as easy as saying that you can breed out the inclination of pit bulls locking their jaws when they bite, but that idea is pretty much near impossible to execute.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I don't think it can be. The fundamental reasons behind displays of aggression in bettas are for attracting mates and scaring away competition. Without it they would have no reason to want to flare. Some wild species of bettas are more peaceful and can be housed together but even they will show aggression to scare away potential competition and vie for breeding rights with the alpha female in the tank. It's really interesting to study the behaviors of the different species. B. spelendens is such a domesticated species that I doubt the aggression will ever be bred out, not that we'd want it to. It's just the nature of the species to be extremely territorial... sort of like bears in that respect. Loners for the most part with the exception of breeding.

As an aside (because I'm as big a dog person as a fish person).. pit bulls jaws don't actually lock. That's just one of the many myths about the breed. The structure and musculature of the jaw is the exact same as any member of the species. In fact, Rottweilers and German Shepherds have a higher bite force than pits (and any breed associated with pits) by a long shot. It's the tenacity of the breed that causes them to not let go. A break stick and a twist of the wrist will release a pit's jaw in seconds if you know how to use it properly.


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## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

1fish2fish said:


> As an aside (because I'm as big a dog person as a fish person).. pit bulls jaws don't actually lock. That's just one of the many myths about the breed. The structure and musculature of the jaw is the exact same as any member of the species. In fact, Rottweilers and German Shepherds have a higher bite force than pits (and any breed associated with pits) by a long shot. It's the tenacity of the breed that causes them to not let go. A break stick and a twist of the wrist will release a pit's jaw in seconds if you know how to use it properly.


I never knew that. Just teaches you to not believe everything your mom tells you. ;-) I'm more of a lab/retriever type of person, but I would LOVE to rescue a pit bull. A trainer at the barn I rode back at home rescued a pit mix named Maggie. She was so sweet she babysat the lesson kids' siblings. Everyone called her Maggie Waggie.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have a neighbor who insists that pit bulls are mean by nature and sooner or later WILL turn on their owner. I've argued with her that if they're brought up right then that isn't necessarily going to happen. I've heard a lot of people who have been around pit bulls say how sweet and loving they are.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Oh I could totally spam this thread with the truth about pit bulls and all the myths about them. Some of the things people think (including my own sister) just make me want to slam my head against a wall.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

My sister has a pit bull...he's still tiny (HA yeah right). He just dosen't know his own size....he's tackled my friend like 10 times haha. But he would never really hurt anyone or anything.


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## baylee767 (Nov 5, 2010)

Pit bull myths are sad. The only reason some are mean is because their "owners" abuse them terribly becuase they look "tough". Then that makes people hate them when pit bulls are more friendly than border collies (Some people did tests) It's like the Bettas of the dog world... cruel myths and cruel treatment )= (Just not NEARLY as aggressive as a Betta)


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think it's the way they're raised. If they're raised to be mean and aggressive, they will be. I';ve known poodles that were mean.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

This thread has gone to the dogs .lol I'm a Doberman lover and know nothing about pit bulls, other than the myths. But I believe all dogs will behave accordingly to the way they were brought up/trained. 

Back to the betta ....hope I don't get kicked out of the internet again.....
So for the fourth time in the last few days....

I differentiate viciousness, aggressiveness, and mentality. First is a character that would shred others to pieces but would not fight long. Second is a character that would chase away and fight for territory but not necessarily vicious. Third is a character close to aggressive - it is the strength of the fish's self esteem but not necessarily vicious nor aggressive. It would fight to the bitter end if challenged but not always chase away others.

This is based on past experiences (mid 70's to early 80's) with the classic fighters and VT. It's inconclusive to relate colors to character other than mentality. IMO dark colored, such as green and specially black lace based, tend to show stronger mentality compared to other colors. Light colors and dark colors which carries (the ones used to mix to light color) light color (like blue and red) show weaker mentality. (hope this makes sense)....

If a dark color becomes stressed (for what ever reason incl loose a fight) it will take them shorter time to regain their self esteem and defend their territory. Sometimes light colors never regain such mentality but becomes vicious towards younger fish or females..... you can't find light colored fighters these days.

The way they were brought up also plays a big role. Fish brought up in solitary since the age of 2 months or so and has never been intimidated by other bettas usually shows a high level of aggressiveness and often stronger mentality compared to those brought up in a sorority. But once stressed, they would never fight for long. These characters are, IMO, also related to age. An elderly betta tends to be more docile, even towards other males.

Again, this is past experience. I'm not sure of their current development. I've noticed some changes in color genetics (not character) since the early 80's and haven't had fighters since late 70's nor have I really payed attention to their character. So their characters may also be different. If you (OP) is interested in the relationship between character and color, this is something you could look into. Must warn you though, you would have to fight them to see if my past conclusion is true.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Once you have a small child thrown in your arms in the ER that has had their guts/intestines ripped out and partial eaten and dead by the way...mother and father screaming and crying stating he (pitBull) has never bitten anyone..he was raised with my kids...etc.....then you will understand why I don't care for that breed.......when pitbulls attack and bite they can do real damage and kill people...especially children and other animals.....true pitbulls may not bite as many people as other breeds of dogs...but when a pitbull bites it counts.......not because of jaw pressure per se but because they don't stop once they start........man bred this into the breed so it not really the dogs fault per se'.....but spend a year working the emergency room and see the damage with your own eyes what a pitbull can do to a human body and listen to the owner tell you this is the first time they have bitten anyone....the pitbulls one time bite can kill........ and then tell me what a nice dog it is...................


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Great info Indjo.

A rottweiler or GSD can do just as much if not more damage. 99% of dog bites are the result of human error. I'd also go further to say that probably 85% or more of reported "pit bites" aren't even from an actual pit bull or any mix thereof. Always have to ask what was being done to the dog prior to the bite and why weren't the parents around. Dog aggression does not equal human aggression and dogs that are inherently human aggressive should be culled or given to someone experienced enough to manage them. Pit Bulls were never bred to bite humans. In fact in the dog fighting days when this breed was being established a dog that bit a human was killed right then and there. They were bred so that when the fight was won humans could step in and break the dogs up without being bitten. 

It's not the breed. If a pit bull ever attacks any one it is solely the fault of the owner. Just recently an infant was killed by a "pit bull" (although that is not confirmed as no picture of the dog in question have surfaced and when it comes to dog bites Labradors start to look an awful lot like "pits" because pit bites make news). Wanna know what happend? Mother left infant alone in a room with the dog and went into another room! NEVER leave a child alone with a dog or any animal big enough to do damage to it. Nothing was ever said what happend but my guess is the kid starts crying.. dog gets overly worried/excited.. accident happens. Should the dog die? I don't think so. 

They don't "turn" on people. You have to DO something to make a dog bite you no matter what breed (unless your talking a mentally unstable dog but that is more the one bad apple scenerio.. exception not the rule).

It's sad when kids are killed by dogs but it is never the dog's fault. Just like death by gunshot death by dog is 100% preventable. But instead of learning how to control your dog and knowing what breed is right for you everyone wants to blame and ban the dog. It's always "he's never bitten anyone before!".. but they can't tell you what was going on prior to the bite. With the exception of mentally unstable dogs (again those are few and far between) dogs ALWAYS give warning signs. Stiffness, low tail wagging, teeth baring, growling, backing away.. these are ALL signs saying get away from me now. Of course children can't read these signs but parents should be able to. I place sole blame on a child bite on the parents.

I've volunteered in ERs and I've seen a few dog bites it does tend to skew your view but you always have to think what led up to the bite. Was the child doing something to the dog or taking something away from the dog (resource guarding can lead to biting if not trained) where were the owners? What conditions/ training was the dog given? What breeding does it come from? It's sad that nowadays dumb*** punk kids are breeding these dogs to be aggressive towards humans when they were never meant to be such. Pit bulls are NOT guard dogs, a real pit bull will happily lead a burglar into your house asking for butt scratchs. If you want a guard dog go with a Doberman or Rottweiler..breeds actually bred for stranger aggression.


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## gmd1800 (Feb 19, 2011)

My mom used to be terrified of GSD and Rottweilers. A GSD attacked her dog when she was walking it one day (I think Mom was maybe 10?) and the dog's ear was torn off. 

Then she met my uncle's dog, Duke. A HUGE GSD, he ran up to Mom, jumped up, rested his paws on her shoulders and started panting in her face. I'm not sure what the deal is with Rottweilers, but she's fine with them thanks to the same uncle who had one after Duke died.

I do know that as advertised as labs are for "family dogs," they tend to be facebiters. My dog once nipped someone so hard he drew blood. However, he only does it when someone provokes him. For the most part, he's docile (even more so now - his 12th birthday was yesterday!). 

I'm very partial to dogs that have a bad reputation because these dogs are usually very smart, but people only see the bad side thanks to the media.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

My grandma had a rottweiler when I was younger...he was a stalker dog haha. He'd follow me around EVERYWHERE! But he wouldn't hurt anyone unless he was threatened.


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