# I'm looking for opinions on my CT pair



## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

So my original intention was to purchase a good quality female on aquabid. I was unsure of what I was looking for. Tonight I went to the petsmart with my sister to buy her supplies to convince her to take proper care of her VT male. Anyway, I happened to look at the bettas on the shelf and there was one little girl left. I know she is nothing special but I just liked her and so I took her home with me. I named her Sassy 
I'm not great with colors yet so part of what I am asking is what color you all think Sassy is. I'm guessing she has iridescence? She has a blue-green shine to her. I am hoping she is marble? I know her colors might change as she gets older, and I'm partly just guessing. 
The second part of what I am asking is what you all think I might get if I were to breed Panic and Sassy. I'm still don't completely understand genetics but I'm working on it.  just looking for some expert advice.
I'm doing this from my phone so will upload pictures of both fishies in about ten minutes.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Pictures would help.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

yeah sry i cant do it from my phone i had to jump on my laptop. 

This is Sassy:


























And this is Pan:


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

hi there creame, congrats on your new bettas. I think sassy is a cambodian. and Panic is a "cooper". What if u breed them? well if you're just looking for pets, then it's no problem. But if your aim is "show quality" then..I think not advisable. just my 2 cents though


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> hi there creame, congrats on your new bettas. I think sassy is a cambodian. and Panic is a "cooper". What if u breed them? well if you're just looking for pets, then it's no problem. But if your aim is "show quality" then..I think not advisable. just my 2 cents though


Thanks! Yeah I know they are not high quality or anything. I am just fond of them and interested to find out what I will get . I was thinking maybe it would be better to start out with them and then when i get better at breeding move on to the "show quality". It would be awful to waste show quality because I don't understand what I am doing. I still have a lot to learn before I even breed these two.


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Just know that breeding is very expensive and takes big responsibility, it will take as much money as breeding pet store fish as much as breeding show-quality. (Besides the fishes' price, lol) 
Do they both have a 180* spread? Or at least one of them do? The main problem with store bettas is that you don't know their genes, and they usually have defects like hunch backs or uneven fins. 

Just think about it first.


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

yes, like LTB said. Looking at their colors ( let's assume they are both "true breed, though this is probably not the case ), the F1 probably dark bodied, green/turquoise/blue/steel blue - red multi ( most of them ), and maybe some "cooper" multi. But what I really concern about is not the colors, it's pan's top - line, while sassy is quite nice actually. So if I were to breed sassy, I'd rather wait till I have another "better" male . and as usual..just my 2 cents though


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

LebronTheBetta said:


> Just know that breeding is very expensive and takes big responsibility, it will take as much money as breeding pet store fish as much as breeding show-quality. (Besides the fishes' price, lol)
> Do they both have a 180* spread? Or at least one of them do? The main problem with store bettas is that you don't know their genes, and they usually have defects like hunch backs or uneven fins.
> 
> Just think about it first.


Is there a way to tell any of those? I would definitely like to avoid things like that! It doesn't look to me like Sassy has a 180 but Panic might? And yeah I am saving up and buying my supplies gradually so that I will have everything I need. I won't start anything until I'm ready. Another 6 months from now at the soonest


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> yes, like LTB said. Looking at their colors ( let's assume they are both "true breed, though this is probably not the case ), the F1 probably dark bodied, green/turquoise/blue/steel blue - red multi ( most of them ), and maybe some "cooper" multi. But what I really concern about is not the colors, it's pan's top - line, while sassy is quite nice actually. So if I were to breed sassy, I'd rather wait till I have another "better" male . and as usual..just my 2 cents though


Pans top? He has that one crooked ray but it used to be straight. Could that mean something?


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

I mean his body's top line, not his dorsal rays, creame


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> I mean his body's top line, not his dorsal rays, creame


sry I am still learning. 
What is a body top line? as in not hunch-backed?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It's their back.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

I went to an older post that mentions the top-line and has an example of a good one, but how is Pans bad? because he is so level/straight looking?


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

it's okay , http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=132794
me and mahsfish discussed a bit about top line in the thread above. Have a look , but of course that's just what I think, others probably have different opinion. Pan's actually not so bad after all, it's just that I myself will avoid to breed him if there's a chance I can get another male. The reason is, from what I saw so far, most CT usually has somewhat "slimmer" body type compared to other tail types, plus their fins are notoriously "hard to keep in good shape", so I think if u add "weird" body line to those..they might look like "weird insects" rather than bettas LOL


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

creame172 said:


> I went to an older post that mentions the top-line and has an example of a good one, but how is Pans bad? because he is so level/straight looking?


I think his top-line is a bit "bumpy" ( at least from what I saw on his pic, unless it's just the "camera" angle ), well like I said previously, not really that bad, just "could be better". Of course it's up to you in the end.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> it's okay , http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=132794
> me and mahsfish discussed a bit about top line in the thread above. Have a look , but of course that's just what I think, others probably have different opinion. Pan's actually not so bad after all, it's just that I myself will avoid to breed him if there's a chance I can get another male. The reason is, from what I saw so far, most CT usually has somewhat "slimmer" body type compared to other tail types, plus their fins are notoriously "hard to keep in good shape", so I think if u add "weird" body line to those..they might look like "weird insects" rather than bettas LOL


Yeah that's the one I went back and read. It helped a little but how is he weird? Lol I know that is kind of a hard thing to describe. Other than that one crooked ray his pectoral fins ( I think they are called) are a little torn up because I just moved him to a new tank. I'm waiting to see if they heal nicely. Is it just crown tails as a breed you prefer not to breed? Is it the spidery look they can have?


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

creame172 said:


> Yeah that's the one I went back and read. It helped a little but how is he weird? Lol I know that is kind of a hard thing to describe. Other than that one crooked ray his pectoral fins ( I think they are called) are a little torn up because I just moved him to a new tank. I'm waiting to see if they heal nicely. Is it just crown tails as a breed you prefer not to breed? Is it the spidery look they can have?


On the contrary, I love crowntails the most, I only breed crowntails now


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> On the contrary, I love crowntails the most, I only breed crowntails now


well then you're just the person i should be talking to aren't you! so a bumpy back makes them look buggy? 

there is one more thing that i can think of that i am not clear on. If you breed a CT pair do you get all CT's? or will that also depend on how purely their genetics are?


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

So far, when I bred CT to CT ( even with "unknown" background ), I never found any of the offsprings which was not a CT, although each spawns/individuals may have different "CT traits". If you're into CTs, have a look at this link :
http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/catview.imp?catid=878
I think it explained pretty much "all the basic things about CTs"


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

+1 caissa - CT x CT = CT
But ray type of CT depends on their genetics.

I'm not a fan of CT. If you're serious about breeding them, you should read about keeping/maintaining their fins. IMO they are the most fussy of all the splendens.


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

indjo said:


> +1 caissa - CT x CT = CT
> But ray type of CT depends on their genetics.
> 
> I'm not a fan of CT. If you're serious about breeding them, you should read about keeping/maintaining their fins. IMO they are the most fussy of all the splendens.


True, Indjo. But like some show/contest "big players" in our country said, winning Grand Champion / Best Of Show with a crowntail, will give you different "feeling" and pride LOL.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> So far, when I bred CT to CT ( even with "unknown" background ), I never found any of the offsprings which was not a CT, although each spawns/individuals may have different "CT traits". If you're into CTs, have a look at this link :
> http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/catview.imp?catid=878
> I think it explained pretty much "all the basic things about CTs"


That helped a ton! so because to be crowntail they are **** for the gene, i will get nothing but crowntails from a male and female who are both crowntails. ive been using that site a lot lately. ive bookmarked it on my laptop.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

indjo said:


> +1 caissa - CT x CT = CT
> But ray type of CT depends on their genetics.
> 
> I'm not a fan of CT. If you're serious about breeding them, you should read about keeping/maintaining their fins. IMO they are the most fussy of all the splendens.


yeah i am finding that out. One of pan's rays is already bent, which i mentioned before, and his pectorals are damaged right now too. I am hoping he will heal back up after he has settled into his new tank. it has a filter on it, but it is on very low so there is not a lot of water movement.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

a lot of my questions have been answered and i am starting to get the hang of this but i am unclear on one more thing; i dont know what to expect out of Sassy because im not clear on what she is. 
Sassy is according to one article technically closer genotypically and phenotypically to a marble or pastel than she is to Cambodian. so will i see more cambodians or something closer to marbles? she has red on her tail so doesnt that exclude her from the possibility of pastels since pastels are non-red? i guess, i am asking if that makes her technically a marble, and if she will genetically act like a marble. 

let me know if i am wrong, but from what i understand, Panic is spread iridescence because he is copper, right? 
and Sassy looks spread iridescent to me from what i have read about it, or am i wrong?:shock:


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

Of course there's a possibility that sassy is a marble ( can't tell for sure, since we know nothing about her genetic background ), but from her pics u posted, she looks more like a young cambodian to me, not the "original" cambodian with flesh colored body and red fins. I had some with colors like her..but usually as they grew, their true color will gradually appear. I think she will grow more colors, especially red on her fins perhaps.
I think..u're trying to figure out what colors will their offsprings be if u breed them? if so..here's my guess (based on phenotype), dark bodied, red fins, iridescent ( most will be green/turquoise-red perhaps ), carry metallic gene. If later u inbreed the male offspring to sassy, u will have some "metallic cambodian", if u inbreed the female offspring to panic, u will have dark bodied, with spread iridescent..probably most will be turquoise-red, possibly with "mask". Just my 2 cents though


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> Of course there's a possibility that sassy is a marble ( can't tell for sure, since we know nothing about her genetic background ), but from her pics u posted, she looks more like a young cambodian to me, not the "original" cambodian with flesh colored body and red fins. I had some with colors like her..but usually as they grew, their true color will gradually appear. I think she will grow more colors, especially red on her fins perhaps.
> I think..u're trying to figure out what colors will their offsprings be if u breed them? if so..here's my guess (based on phenotype), dark bodied, red fins, iridescent ( most will be green/turquoise-red perhaps ), carry metallic gene. If later u inbreed the male offspring to sassy, u will have some "metallic cambodian", if u inbreed the female offspring to panic, u will have dark bodied, with spread iridescent..probably most will be turquoise-red, possibly with "mask". Just my 2 cents though


yeah i am trying to figure out what colors their fry might be. so i am basically looking at no coppers, right? or i will have to breed brother/sister to get the two matallics and then find a steel blue to breed to that before i would get copper. i think. 
lol if i paid you two cents for your every two cents i might go broke. do you think (color-wise) they are worth breeding?


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

do I think they are worth breeding..depends on what you're looking for..if u're looking for "surprise", I think they are. cos there's no way to tell how exactly all those color genes will "react". take red for example...red x red ( red is dominant )..then it's gonna be 100% red, right? well yes, in theory..but sometimes...u can have butterflies, yellows, maybe even oranges ( not many of them of course, most will still be reds ). But if cooper is your goal..then I think it's not worth the time, effort and money, it's much faster, easier and cheaper to buy a cooper female ct and breed her to panic


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Sassy is a red cambodian x irid result. Not sure what generation, how true her genes are, etc. She doesn't look like marble to me. Just a regular . . . what we call "maskot"

Panic (coper) x irid multi cambodian = probability: irids, mainly turquoise some might be metallic, very few multi copper (highly dependent on how strong the copper genes are), irid multi cambodian (probably more irid on body and or fins), pastel like colors, cellophane.

IMO the question isn't whether they are breed worthy or not but what your goals are. Personally I would also consider improving fin spread at the same time as attempting color.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> do I think they are worth breeding..depends on what you're looking for..if u're looking for "surprise", I think they are. cos there's no way to tell how exactly all those color genes will "react". take red for example...red x red ( red is dominant )..then it's gonna be 100% red, right? well yes, in theory..but sometimes...u can have butterflies, yellows, maybe even oranges ( not many of them of course, most will still be reds ). But if cooper is your goal..then I think it's not worth the time, effort and money, it's much faster, easier and cheaper to buy a cooper female ct and breed her to panic


well Pan's copper was a surprise, i am looking for surprise in the fry as well. i think Pan and Sassy are both pretty and am curious to see what will happen. buying two coppers to get copper is kind of cheating, you know? i want to take the scenic route to something unexpected and great.
i know im not going to get show quality, or even something that will be incredibly beautiful or interesting, i just want something i can appreciate and perhaps others will appreciate it too.  they are my babies i will love them even if they are hideous. but hopefully they will not be so hideous that no one will want any of them because i cant take care of all of them their whole lives! :shock:


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

creame172 said:


> well Pan's copper was a surprise, i am looking for surprise in the fry as well. i think Pan and Sassy are both pretty and am curious to see what will happen. buying two coppers to get copper is kind of cheating, you know? i want to take the scenic route to something unexpected and great.
> i know im not going to get show quality, or even something that will be incredibly beautiful or interesting, i just want something i can appreciate and perhaps others will appreciate it too.  they are my babies i will love them even if they are hideous. but hopefully they will not be so hideous that no one will want any of them because i cant take care of all of them their whole lives! :shock:


Ah IC, same like old time me (as a matter of fact, I'm still like that, just prefer a bit different route LOL). I mean your way of thinking, that's what actually "drag" me to betta breeding, curiousity. Wanted to know what can I "produce" with what I have. Well, if u're willing to spend (time, efforts, money) then I think it's interesting to try it


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

creame172 said:


> well Pan's copper was a surprise, i am looking for surprise in the fry as well. i think Pan and Sassy are both pretty and am curious to see what will happen. *buying two coppers to get copper is kind of cheating, you know?* i want to take the scenic route to something unexpected and great.
> i know im not going to get show quality, or even something that will be incredibly beautiful or interesting, i just want something i can appreciate and perhaps others will appreciate it too.  they are my babies i will love them even if they are hideous. but hopefully they will not be so hideous that no one will want any of them because i cant take care of all of them their whole lives! :shock:


haha . . . I guess I'm a cheater then.
I prefer not to mix colors as they are often hard to purify. But I often do when I can't get the colors I need.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

indjo said:


> haha . . . I guess I'm a cheater then.
> I prefer not to mix colors as they are often hard to purify. But I often do when I can't get the colors I need.


I will probably cheat later for now I want to see what I get


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> Ah IC, same like old time me (as a matter of fact, I'm still like that, just prefer a bit different route LOL). I mean your way of thinking, that's what actually "drag" me to betta breeding, curiousity. Wanted to know what can I "produce" with what I have. Well, if u're willing to spend (time, efforts, money) then I think it's interesting to try it


Yeah I will have to learn the ropes. And money shouldn't be too bad my husbands hobby is two times as expensive as mine


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

If petsmart uses the same breeders for multiple petsmarts in the US then I may have a sibling of Sassy's that I picked up a week ago.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

Fishy Mom said:


> If petsmart uses the same breeders for multiple petsmarts in the US then I may have a sibling of Sassy's that I picked up a week ago.


really? that would be so cute! do you have a picture?


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

Here's a pic of her.


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

That last pic uploaded upside down. Let me try another one.


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

Ok, I give up. Just turn you're computer upside down to see the pic, lol.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

Fishy Mom said:


> Ok, I give up. Just turn you're computer upside down to see the pic, lol.


aw she is so cute! what state do you live in? i wonder if they could actually be sisters. she and Sassy look very similar


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

creame172 said:


> aw she is so cute! what state do you live in? i wonder if they could actually be sisters. she and Sassy look very similar


I'm in PA. I'm going to ask about who they get their bettas from & states they ship to.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

Fishy Mom said:


> I'm in PA. I'm going to ask about who they get their bettas from & states they ship to.


yeah i would like to know too!


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

i live in TN, btw


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## JJChocolate88 (Mar 14, 2013)

those are beautiful fish, i agree with whoever said cambodian and copper because i googled the pictures and they look similar to yours. I am not that familiar with betta genetics either, i am still learning and I still get confused with the phenotype and genotype stuff. you can only really tell the phenotype by looking at the fish, but the genotype you dont know. like you never know what recessive genes they have and whether or not they'll show up in offspring.

i have a dark silver half moon female that I ordered from aquabid and petstore blue male with a red tip on his tail he is a crowntail and I have NO IDEA what their offspring will look like, if they even come. I just spawned them for the first time yesterday. still waiting...

I am hoping that they'll take on more of the half-moon tail type and maybe they'll come out blue-silver or something. I don't know but I am excited to see what happens.

the only thing i know is steel blue female +black male= black betta fish and I am still learning all of the other stuff. I think cornflower blue bettas and black bettas are so beautiful. I'd love to breed some of those one day once I got a better understanding of the genetics and everything.

good luck to you


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

JJChocolate88 said:


> those are beautiful fish, i agree with whoever said cambodian and copper because i googled the pictures and they look similar to yours. I am not that familiar with betta genetics either, i am still learning and I still get confused with the phenotype and genotype stuff. you can only really tell the phenotype by looking at the fish, but the genotype you dont know. like you never know what recessive genes they have and whether or not they'll show up in offspring.
> 
> i have a *dark silver half moon female that I ordered from aquabid and petstore blue male with a red tip on his tail he is a crowntail* and I have NO IDEA what their offspring will look like, if they even come. I just spawned them for the first time yesterday. still waiting...
> 
> ...


my guess is..multicolors ( green/blue/steel blue with red fins ) as for tail type probably most will be delta with extended rays ( something like combtail ).


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

creame172 said:


> i live in TN, btw


I'll check it out. I'll have to tell Princess (that's her name) that I may have found her sister, lol. She has a great personality & does really well in my sorority with the other girls. I just released her & she fit right in with no issues.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

JJChocolate88 said:


> those are beautiful fish, i agree with whoever said cambodian and copper because i googled the pictures and they look similar to yours. I am not that familiar with betta genetics either, i am still learning and I still get confused with the phenotype and genotype stuff. you can only really tell the phenotype by looking at the fish, but the genotype you dont know. like you never know what recessive genes they have and whether or not they'll show up in offspring.
> 
> i have a dark silver half moon female that I ordered from aquabid and petstore blue male with a red tip on his tail he is a crowntail and I have NO IDEA what their offspring will look like, if they even come. I just spawned them for the first time yesterday. still waiting...
> 
> ...


i think i learned that Crowntail is recessive, that you need CTCT to get crowntail, so you probably will get half moon(but double check i might be wrong). I would be very interested to see what you get! are you posting a spawn log?

Good luck to you as well!


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

Fishy Mom said:


> I'll check it out. I'll have to tell Princess (that's her name) that I may have found her sister, lol. She has a great personality & does really well in my sorority with the other girls. I just released her & she fit right in with no issues.


aww! omg Princess and Sassy! they even have similar names! are you going to breed her?


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## caissacrowntails (Mar 10, 2013)

creame172 said:


> i think i learned that Crowntail is recessive, that you need CTCT to get crowntail, so you probably will get half moon(but double check i might be wrong). I would be very interested to see what you get! are you posting a spawn log?
> 
> Good luck to you as well!


my exp showed that it's quite the contrary, creame..CT is actually quite dominant, well probably partial, if u cross a CT to any other tail type..there will be extended rays on the offsprings. But HM is different, HM x HM will not give you 100% HM, and if u cross it to say...a VT, u will definitely get no HM ( these assuming that all the fishes involved are "true breed" ).


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

caissacrowntails said:


> my exp showed that it's quite the contrary, creame..CT is actually quite dominant, well probably partial, if u cross a CT to any other tail type..there will be extended rays on the offsprings. But HM is different, HM x HM will not give you 100% HM, and if u cross it to say...a VT, u will definitely get no HM ( these assuming that all the fishes involved are "true breed" ).


Oh ok. i knew two crowntails will give you growntails, but i thought it was because to be crowntail meant they had to be **** for it


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

creame172 said:


> aww! omg Princess and Sassy! they even have similar names! are you going to breed her?


No, they're just pets right now. I'm not planning on breeding for a couple of years. That's how long it will take until we get our house renovated & ready to sell. Then when we get our country house I have plans for lots of animals. I can't wait! 

What have you decided on breeding?


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

Fishy Mom said:


> No, they're just pets right now. I'm not planning on breeding for a couple of years. That's how long it will take until we get our house renovated & ready to sell. Then when we get our country house I have plans for lots of animals. I can't wait!
> 
> What have you decided on breeding?


yeah i want to breed them when we get a house. i cant exactly have hundreds of baby fishies in our apartment:shock:. we are looking at getting one this summer. it will give me time to learn everything i need to know before i breed them. 
you sound like an animal lover like me! lol we have a cat, two dogs, a bunny, a ten gallon and Pan and Sassy. i would love a big piece of land with horses and a few cows and chickens. i love the little bantam chickens.  and bunnies. i would love to breed bunnies.


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

creame172 said:


> yeah i want to breed them when we get a house. i cant exactly have hundreds of baby fishies in our apartment:shock:. we are looking at getting one this summer. it will give me time to learn everything i need to know before i breed them.
> you sound like an animal lover like me! lol we have a cat, two dogs, a bunny, a ten gallon and Pan and Sassy. i would love a big piece of land with horses and a few cows and chickens. i love the little bantam chickens.  and bunnies. i would love to breed bunnies.


I'm an animal lover too. I can't believe you said you love the bantam chickens...they are my favorite! I saw a few of them at the SPCA & so badly wanted to take them home with me. If I had more than just a chia pet for a yard (ok it's not really a chia pet, but it's just a little block of grass, lol) they would have been mine. Right now I have one cat & my fish. I'm holding off on all my animal plans until we move. Then I'm getting two Rottweilers, a pug, a bunny, chickens, a wild pair of bettas & maybe a chinchilla. Then I'm going to try at least one betta spawn.


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## creame172 (Jan 28, 2013)

Fishy Mom said:


> I'm an animal lover too. I can't believe you said you love the bantam chickens...they are my favorite! I saw a few of them at the SPCA & so badly wanted to take them home with me. If I had more than just a chia pet for a yard (ok it's not really a chia pet, but it's just a little block of grass, lol) they would have been mine. Right now I have one cat & my fish. I'm holding off on all my animal plans until we move. Then I'm getting two Rottweilers, a pug, a bunny, chickens, a wild pair of bettas & maybe a chinchilla. Then I'm going to try at least one betta spawn.


my parents have a big yard and looking for chickens. i am so excited! im telling them what kinds i want lol! i will be over there every day. 
are you going to get the dogs and bunny, etc at the shelter?


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## Fishy Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

Lol, I wish I could talk my parents into getting more animals. All my animals will be rescues.


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