# Snakessssss?



## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

Hey ya'll!
Got a buddy who is thinking about getting a corn snake, and I'm not having very much luck finding any good care sites (so spoiled here for reals).
Anyone with snakes know of any great forums/resources? 
Thanks so much!


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## Araielle (Jan 16, 2014)

I was reading up on snakes not long ago. Here are some of the pages I'd bookmarked for corn snakes.  Hope these help! 

http://www.cornsnake.co.uk/index.php
http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/cornsnakes/a/cornsnakes_2.htm
http://www.reptilesncritters.com/care-guide-corn-snakes.php


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## Araielle (Jan 16, 2014)

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=501
http://www.thecornsnake.co.uk/forum/


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you so much!!


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## Araielle (Jan 16, 2014)

haveyouhadyourteayet said:


> Thank you so much!!


No problem.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

Just make sure you don't feed LIVE rats or mice. A lot of people do this with all kinds of pet snakes, but zoos do not -- for good reason! Snakes are prone to being injured by rats and mice when fed live in captivity, and can easily die from this injuries. A good friend of mine kept a very angry rat for years that he won in a bet, after it killed the snake it was supposed to be fed to!


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

What's the preferred method for killing rats and mice to be fed? Are they kept alive until needed or are they able to be frozen?


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## Sathori (Jul 7, 2013)

+1 to NorthernLights.

I work at a pet store and I have heard all kinds of horror stories of snakes getting seriously damaged by live rats.
We carry frozen mice/rats for our snake customers. Most people tend to buy on a "as need" basis, buying what they will need to feed their snake (since most do once a month) or for the younger ones, they buy what they need for the week. You thaw them and feed them to the snake. Some need a little more encouragement to eat a dead rodent, so sometimes you have to gut them in order to strengthen the scent.

I've had some people feed live mice "for fun" and the snake then would refuse to eat frozen again after that. This can cause a lot of trouble for the larger snakes if they start to need rats and refuse to eat frozen.. :/


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Couldn't you somewhat debilitate the food prior to feeding? I know when I fish with live eels I give them a whack on the rail to disorient them. Not that I worry what an eel will do to a striped bass or bluefish, but it sure makes them easier to handle which is where I draw the connection to feeding the snake disoriented/disabled prey.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

I would personally feed live... You need to feed the appropriate sized 'meal' to the snake, but I prefer to let things get out their literal animal instincts.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I hear it's a HUGE debate - live vs dead.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

Yeah, I've seen the debate too... But it's a snake. If it can't kill a mouse... Obv if a snake is like... special, maybe help him with it. But I've seen a friend's ball python eat large rats several times, that rat doesn't know what hit it. I think if you start them young they learn how to hunt.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Do they not instinctually know how to hunt? But yeah, I'm sure that a snake that's been killing it's prey all it's life would probably be good at it by the time it was fed rats, versus a snake that hasn't. But still, would suck to be wrong.


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## SunsetGuardian (Dec 1, 2013)

jaysee said:


> I hear it's a HUGE debate - live vs dead.


It's actually not that big of a debate among experienced snake keepers. It's usually new snake owners that like to make a huge deal out of it because they think feeding live is "natural" or they get a kick out of watching their snake kill things. For older and experienced keepers, F/T rodents are the way to go and live is very discouraged unless the snake refuses anything but live food. It's for good reason too, snakes get killed and injured by live prey quite often and I've seen a snake die from a rat bite first-hand and it wasn't pretty. I can post a few pictures of snakes injured/killed by live prey if you want, though they are very graphic and aren't for the faint of heart.



jaysee said:


> Do they not instinctually know how to hunt? But yeah, I'm sure that a snake that's been killing it's prey all it's life would probably be good at it by the time it was fed rats, versus a snake that hasn't. But still, would suck to be wrong.


I have to respectfully disagree, snakes run off of instinct and instinct only. They don't learn how to hunt, it's something they know how to do the minute they hatch. Snake's are very primitive creatures and simply don't have the mental capacity to learn. If you fed a snake whose been fed F/T all it's life a live rat, it would kill it the same way a snake that's been fed live all it's life would. (Don't get me wrong though, I still adore snakes even though they aren't the brightest creatures!)


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

So back to the original question I had, not being a snake keeper - what's the preferred method of dispatching food? How prevalent is it for people to disorient/disable live food prior to feeding?


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I must respectfully disagree here . Frozen food is not as nutritious as live. When feeding live you feed live pinkies or fuzzies and euthanize any live prey larger then that right before feeding . It's far more healthy . Frozen foods are much more dangerous to your snake and by experienced keepers f/t is highly discouraged. It's not really about instincts .. This is about health and safety . F/t food is simply a more convenient and sometimes cheaper method ... But certainly not the preferred method. I don't keep snakes but I do work withy a reptile rescue ... I'm the only person working with them that doesn't keep them . I'm very familiar with proper husbandry . If your too squeamish to euthanize live prey then you aren't ready for snake ownership . 


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## SunsetGuardian (Dec 1, 2013)

Most people use a CO2 chamber to kill rodents or other feeders. It knocks them out instantly and they die a few seconds later. It's considered the most humane method of euthanasia. 

However, CO2 does not work on pinky mice or rats. I can't remember why exactly, but it takes a very long time for pinkies to die from CO2 and is a very drawn out and painful death. So, they simply put them in a freezer and they freeze to death. It sounds cruel, but pinky mice and rats don't have fur, so they are killed by the cold very quickly and it's the most humane death for feeders that young.

Disorienting/disabling prey is a pretty common practice among snake owners who have snakes that will only eat. live. It greatly reduces the risk of injury to the snake and is something people will recommend doing. But there are a few snakes that are overly picky and won't even eat disoriented prey, so in those cases they are given prey that's fully aware and able.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

A death chamber eh? Makes sense. Thanks


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## SunsetGuardian (Dec 1, 2013)

I have no idea who told you F/T is dangerous but that is rather silly and untrue. Frozen food is only dangerous if you don't thaw out the rodent properly as an unthawed rodent can cause serious health problems or kill a snake, other than that there is nothing dangerous about it. 

I do agree that there is some nutrition loss in frozen rodents and prekilled or live prey is the best nutrition wise, but that doesn't make frozen rodents unhealthy or bad as many snakes have lived and thrived on F/T, so they clearly are getting all the nutrients they need to live a healthy life. There are pros and cons to F/T, prekilled, and live. Live food can injure/kill a snake or pass on parasites, but is the most nutritious. Prekilled food can pass on parasites to a snake, but will not cause injury and is as nutritious as live. F/T is not as nutritious but any parasites that a rodent may have had will die off from being frozen.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

Oh god what have I started...


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## SunsetGuardian (Dec 1, 2013)

Sorry haveyouhadyourteayet! 

I don't want to turn your thread into a debate, so message me instead Agent13 if you want to discuss/debate things as I really don't want to hijack tea's thread.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't really care, it's interesting to see both sides!! 
Just funny that it went from 'here's some links!!' to a debate XD


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

We'll then .. As long as you don't mind hearing the sides 

While not thawing enough posses risk so does over thawing . Read the label on a package of chicken. See where it discusses the dangers of exposing it to room temperatures? Well, this is exactly what you MUST do before feeding a frozen rodent! And this rodent is complete, with all gut content and bacteria, not to mention urine and feces, while the chicken has been cleaned of this stuff . So here we are, deliberately exposing a tainted piece of meat to dangerous temperatures before happily handing it to your pet. Sound bad? Well it is. 
I'm not sure how this danger isn't obvious to all . All those who we rehome snakes to we educate on this stuff . Now if you thaw perfectly everytime and remove anything that's not eaten within 30mn then all you are doing is not allowing your snake to get all the nutrients of live or fresh killed food. That's not so bad but it's not the best . There should be no danger of food hurting your snake as you are supposed to euthanize anything older then a fuzzy. Parasites are hardly ever a worry .. You should be sourcing your food from disease free stock if you don't raise your own . 



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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

*popcorn*


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## SunsetGuardian (Dec 1, 2013)

For one, your never supposed to let a F/T rodent (Or any meat) thaw in room temperature as that allows bacteria to grow on it. I've never heard a single person say to thaw rodents in room temperature either, so whoever is telling you these things needs to get their facts straight. You thaw it in warm water for 1-2 hours and no bacteria will grow on it, so no there is no risk or danger at all. 

Live and prekilled rodents also have gut content, urine, and feces, so that argument is flawed. Also, the nutrients lost during freezing is minimal and does not affect the snake in any way. Plus in some countries, it is illegal to feed live food and all of those snakes fed F/T are doing fine and dandy.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Proper food handling procedure (to prevent bacteria growth) is to use cold water to thaw, not warm water.


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## SunsetGuardian (Dec 1, 2013)

Perhaps I didn't word that correctly, you use cold water to thaw it out, then move it to warmer water for a very short amount of time right before feeding to make it, well, warmer. Some species of snakes use heat pits/sensors to locate their prey so the rodent must be warm or they won't recognize it as prey. Even with snakes that don't use heat pits or sensors, warming it makes the smell stronger and the snake is more likely to eat it.


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