# Experiments in breeding



## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi all, 
I want to start this thread regarding various experiments that you have tried to get your bettas to breed and raising betta fry. 

I have tried various experiments so far. 
Raising water temp then cooling down with ice and fresh clean water to simulate rain fall and PH temp changes should occur with this process. Normal conditions would be hot then rain would cool down water and dilute anything that is in concentration in the water. 
I had no success with this. I need to build a device that drips water in like rain. 

In addition to this I have also tried using a variable rate strobe light to simulate lightning. I need to try banging some pans or getting some sheet metal to vibrate to simulate thunder. lol

Current experiment, I have a male and female outside in a 10 gallon tank with a bunch of oak leaves. Water is very dark. Been removing and adding water daily to simulate rain changes. The weather in the last week has ranged from hot to cold. Current outside temps are 55* F. The fish are doing fine. Female has a fat belly from all the bug larva she has been eating. They both refuse to eat pellet food atm. 

They chase each other around but no real damage has occurred to either fish. Lots of dead leaves to hide under but they refuse to hide. 

I just built a device to keep micro worms from falling to bottom of tank. My hope is that the worms will slowly wiggle out of it and the fry will gobble them up as they become available. No more bottom feeding and missing ventral fins if this works.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

55 degrees F?!?!?!!? 

Tropical fish
That is all.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Interesting..... you do have to constantly be on your toes with this species.

I haven't experimented much on setups and conditions other than new clean tub and water vs aged water. My trial and error is more on getting reluctant breeders to breed (flaring, planted vs bare, etc) and how to save neglected eggs (artificial hatching).

Wow, 55F.... that's really low. But if you slowly adapt your fry to 4 season, someday they will tolerate low temps.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

My outdoor set up dropped to the high 50s in the initial weeks. Got a spawn during one of those nights.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

Yea 55* F sounds bad but you have to remember the temp changes were gradual during the night. There is no reason they cannot adapt to slow changes in temp. In the day the water warms up again. This is the normal cycle in an outdoor environment. I'm sure if it was below 50 it would be bad. I have converted a salt water puffer I caught, when living on Guam, to live in fresh water. He used to live in the same tank as my gold fish. I had to put a divider in the tank because he was aggressive towards the goldfish. Animals are adaptable. 

I have an program on my PC that monitors the temp, wind, rain barometric pressure. Currently almost all my males have made bubble nest. Current Barometric pressure is 1014 hPa. 

Well just tried my new micro worm feeder. Needs more work. Worms fell right through lol.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

I think your fish will get sick from the temp change
If not then Ick 
Your setting yourself up to parasite


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## CrypticDelirium (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm quite interested in your micro worm filter idea. Is it something you'd care to share a bit of info on? (If it's a secret I'd understand : P) But I've made quite a few DIY crazy things for other things, mayhaps I could give some advice!


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

The water has a lot of oak leaves. The acidic environment should protect the fish from ammonia and other bacteria infections. 
Driftwood In Aquariums - A Fish Guide

From what I understand ammonia in low ph water will convert to ammonium which can still be used by bacteria and converted to nitrite, but the ammonium is not as toxic to fish as ammonia. Prime does this conversion. 

Ick isn't always present in fish. The fish have to be infected. Ick need warm temperatures to reproduce fast. The colder water would inhibit them from reproducing fast. 
is it always in your tank? - The Reef Tank


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

CrypticDelirium said:


> I'm quite interested in your micro worm filter idea. Is it something you'd care to share a bit of info on? (If it's a secret I'd understand : P) But I've made quite a few DIY crazy things for other things, mayhaps I could give some advice!


used stockings to try and keep the micro worms in so they would slowly fall as they wiggle. I need to try something else. I already have 3 layers and they fall right through. Worms are 50 micron wide.


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## Twilight Storm (Apr 14, 2011)

I never really thought about trying to simulate rain. I'd say try a spray bottle first.

Fun idea that may or may not work, just thought I would toss it out there:

You could convert a 2 liter bottle into an octopus of airline tubing rigged like drip acclimation, either with knots or valves at the ends of the tubes. This wouldn't produce a "storm" however. More like a light rain depending on how slow you made the drip, and how many tubes you used.

[Thunder could be simulated easy like you said, or just run a speaker out to the tank and have something boom through it maybe. I know a lot of the computer games the kids play make me believe it's raining outside when something booms on their computer.

Lightning could also be simulated with a camera flash on a timer if the room is dark enough. Same idea as the strobe light though I would think.]

Anyway just ideas.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

I tried coffee filters to filter out vinegar eels so that I could rinse them and not affect ph. They went right through. I wonder if it will stop micro worms.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Your experiment sounds a lot like how I spawn in the warmer months-except that I don't have any problems with spawning.

My temps will range from 50'sF to 100'sF and it doesn't seem to cause any problems with either the breeders or nest of eggs, new born fry, older fry...etc....They seem to tolerate the gradual temp changes and even the sudden extreme changes when it rains or I flood them with the cold well water when the water gets well over 110F.

I have even accidentally moved fry trapped in the brine shrimp net to little bowls of water when I am collecting larva and find them weeks later-fine and grown getting mass water changes from rain since the bowl was under the drip line of the house....

If your 10gal tank is full to the top...add a second female and see if that will help and stop changing the water-just top off and don't let it get too much direct sun-cover the top if needed with slats so you get shade but good air circulation and use floating plants like water lettuce....Let it get so dark you can't see in it-add more oak leaf and some live plants to float...also allow some of the leaves to float on top for the male to nest under-mine seem to like the dark brown leaves better than the yellow leaves.

Usually its the barometric pressure they are responding to with the storms

I like to use a brine shrimp net for my microworms-they will slowly work their way through it for the fry to eat, but personally I like newly hatched BBS. 

Love to see some pics....


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> Your experiment sounds a lot like how I spawn in the warmer months-except that I don't have any problems with spawning.
> 
> My temps will range from 50'sF to 100'sF and it doesn't seem to cause any problems with either the breeders or nest of eggs, new born fry, older fry...etc....They seem to tolerate the gradual temp changes and even the sudden extreme changes when it rains or I flood them with the cold well water when the water gets well over 110F.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. 

I have about 30 oak leaves in the tank. The water is pretty dark. just before I went to bed I was thinking of going to Michael's to look at the possible materials I could use to filter the worms. When I woke up I had the idea of using silk. Pretty much like the brine shrimp netting. Perhaps if i can't find any silk I will test the brine shrimp net I have and possible sacrifice one since they aren't too expensive. 

I have been trying to decap Brine shrimp eggs and then hatching without salt. I found an article online where a guy hatched this way just using baking soda. So far no success. perhaps I needed a heater or a higher PH. It was my hope I could introduce the eggs hatched without salt into the tank and the bbs would be able to live in the tank with the spawn and get eaten as needed. lol

I am pondering a way of modifying a tank to be able to create artificial low pressure to trigger spawning.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Since brine shrimp are salt water...the salt is going to be really important

Have you thought about or tried _Fairy shrimp_-they are freshwater and might do what you are wanting-They are a bit more expensive than brine shrimp-but easy to hatch-The eggs do need to dry out to hatch again if they reproduce for you-that is one of the down sides of using them long term or to keep them going non-stop.

When you are doing outside spawn with some dirt, dried leaves and live plants you will get natural critters that will start to culture in the water too that the fry can feed on...lots of microorganisms that are great for the first few weeks-Then the daphania and with the mosquito that will lay rafts of eggs and when they first hatch are small enough for Betta fry as young as 2 weeks. Betta fry can eat food much larger than you think-plus they will tear food apart and then along with the other fry that fight over the food...kind of a tug-O-war ripping the food up so that they can swallow it without problems.

I also will add green water to my containers-mostly daphnia and other critters that feed on green water/algae. I have buckets of water in the sun that I will add grass clipping, hay, hand full of dirt...etc.....and once it is green I will add cups of this water to my outside containers with fry.

I have never had to use any processed foods to feed any of my outside spawns/fry.....and they grow out fast and healthy....

When I start a 5gal bucket for an outside spawn-I fill it about half way with dried oak leaves...TMTC but if I had to guess....100's of leaves.....then I will fill half way up with my hard well water and finish it with some rain water that already has lots of microorganism-Then I add a bunch of stem plant clippings to float and some water lettuce. I acclimate my breeders-usually 1 male and 2 females and let the games begin....lol....
Usually I will have spawn within the hour and I will collect the first nest/eggs to artificial hatch-then about every 2-3 days I will have a new nest/eggs....Depending on what my goal is with that set of breeders I may or may not collect every nest/eggs-but I always leave at least one nest/eggs every third time(_more or less_) for the male to tend to-as well as when I collect the nest/eggs I rarely get them all.

I don't have problems with either males or females eating the eggs/fry at any stage, however, I do have problems with older fry eating younger fry and try to collect the biggest on a regular basis and move to a different container for grow-out.

This method has been working well for me for several years-my biggest problem...lots of fry-but I do have a buyer for every single one of them-plus I do cull hard...which I feel is really important with any method.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm having a really weird problem my females are always kicking the males asses. Just got home and my crown tail no longer has spikes. He looks ok and still chases the female around. Usually the other way around for me before. 

When I bred Bettas about 9 years ago, I noticed that fish I kept in water with leaves seem to be healthier than the ones that lived in filtered tanks. 

I had also put very small fry into a 50 gallon plastic barrel that had tons of green water and bugs in it. The fry grew really fast and were fully colored with finnage in about a month. I never bothered to feed them. I just took a peek and they popped up to the top. 

I have also wanted to figure how large of an area male bettas would stake out for their territory. One day I hope I can get a really large/long aquarium or maybe even a pond and dump a bunch inside to see what happens. If they will claim territory and stay with in the area they claim or will it be an all out battle. 

OFL I guess I'll go gather more oak leaves. I was also planning on getting some plants tomorrow. Was supposed to do that today but didn't make it to the store in time. I had made too many other side trips. 

As for the micro worm feeder I found the silk and tried it. So far not seeing any getting through. Perhaps by tomorrow I will find them on the bottom. I also toss a bunch of micro worms in and they did not pass through the Silk. Funny that they went right through the coffee filters but will not go through silk. Not a good thing for the Micro worm feeder but a good way for me to filter the vinegar eels so not a total loss. I will continue to experiment with other materials if I do not find the micro worms on the bottom by tomorrow morning.


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## Twilight Storm (Apr 14, 2011)

What kind of silk did you end up using? Or what did you get the silk off of? I'm interested to know the thread count


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

Twilight Storm said:


> What kind of silk did you end up using? Or what did you get the silk off of? I'm interested to know the thread count


Solid Silk Dupioni no clue on the thread count.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

After about the 3rd generation and some selective breeding I have been able to keep multi males and female together in heavy planted tanks from 20-75gal long term. Right now I have about 30 8mo-2 year old males outside in a 250gal tank-no problems but it does have mass amounts of plants. All my tanks are mass planted.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

OFL I am curious, what is the secret to being able to do that? Housing males and females together. What do you select for? I think that is AMAZING


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Its a long process and years of selective breeding to get that happy medium so-to-speak. So that you can keep them together and yet still have enough aggression so they will still flare and spawn but not fight-they do square off on occasion but don't make contact.

In the beginning I had problems with being able to put the male back in the tank with the others after I removed them to spawn.

Its not totally without issue and I will still get a male here and there that can't tolerate being kept together or a male that isn't accepted back into the tank or causes trouble after they spawn-but on the most part they all live happy together.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Housing a male with a number of females is relatively easy - as long as the male is not too docile nor vicious. He will attack the females during the first few hours to a day but eventually he will calm down. IME the key is that he must constantly come in to contact with the females - the more females the better. Eventually he will tire and calm down. Without challenges nor being threatened, he will become docile. 

But I have never succeeded housing males together without them fighting. A stressed "chicken" can be housed together and young males that hasn't been separated. But I will always have torn fins. And once they're taken out, say to breed, I can not put them back in the sorority with males.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

Results of silk left over night with micro worm and vinegar eels. Found some worms outside of the feeder. But still a tons more wiggling inside it after being left over night. Might have escaped because my son was playing with some blocks on the table I left it on. Knowing him he bumped the table and caused some worms to spill out. 

I built a hybrid with silk and a different material with a small hole cut into the silk and then the hole covered up with the new material. It works but needs some modification to direct the worms towards the hole.


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm not a breeder and don't think I'll ever be able to but I just wanted to hop into this topic and tell you all how fascinating I find it. I love just how hard you all try to ensure your pairs and spawns are offered such natural environments - mimicing a storm?! That is downright incredible. I would tip my hat to you all but alas I am not wearing one.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

*Betta natural environment*

Hey here is a pic showing what the bettas natural environment looks like. Look at all that tannin in the water and all the dead leaves and mud.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

So I was thinking what makes females so aggressive. I have had 2 females beat my males to hell and back. I'm wondering if the low oxygen levels in the natural environment makes them a bit more docile. The breeding tanks I have are well filtered and oxygenated. Perhaps this is problem. 

I have an Aunt who is a vet and she uses alka seltzer to sedate fish before surgery. The carbon dioxide that is released basically knocks the fish out. Perhaps forcing the bettas to use their labyrinth organ will reduce aggressiveness. CO2 injection used for plants might create this environment artificially. Just some random thoughts. 

Don't have a CO2 injector perhaps I will make one using a bottle with vinegar and baking soda and put a bubble stone at the end of the hose to saturate the water with CO2.


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## VictorP (Jun 5, 2012)

IMO It's in their nature to be aggressive some females are like that. I put my females in jars and once when I put a female in the spawning tank she came close to killing my male.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

I know their are people concerned about comparing bettas in the wild and some of you may disagree to it but there is no way around the world that any place can stay 70-80F all year long and most breeders in Thailand don't use heaters and they bred fish all year long and it seems like their growing rate is twice as fast without using a heater I get my fishes from breeders in Hawaii cause its way cheaper than getting it in Thailand and its the same breeding technics


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

My outside bettas in 10 gallon tank still have not bred. 1 male 1 female in tank. Tons of oak leaves, water lettuce and duck weed. As the tannins made the water darker. They seemed to become more inactive just hanging at the surface hiding from each other and under some floating oak leaves. 

I decided to try artificially mimicking rain. I used a small plastic take out container with small holes punched into it and poured 2 pitchers total into the container as it emptied. With in 30 seconds the 2 fish started moving around like crazy and the male started chasing the female and flaring at her. I think the fake rain really is a good trigger. I have tried adding water just by pouring it straight in. Perhaps the rain effect allows the fresh water to float on top and not mix fast with the bottom layer. The fish seemed to hang out in the first 2 or 3 inches of water near the surface.


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## goldfishyman (Jun 8, 2012)

Found an interesting article regarding common tap water supply. 
Can Birth Control Hormones Be Filtered from the Water Supply?: Scientific American

The article mentions that many fish species are affected by even the lowest levels of drugs or hormones found in water. Maybe some of us need to start using RO water to remove the hormones that might be affecting our fishes behavior when breeding. Some offspring are also found infertile when exposed to estrogen. These fish may have both male and female parts. Kinda makes me wonder why this halfmoon female I bought is blowing bigger a bigger bubble nest than most of my other males and I can barely see her ovipositor.


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