# Breeding for pet vs show



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Do any betta breeders actually breed to better the species? Or it it pretty much all just show? In the mouse world there are show breeders and though they breed beautiful show mice anyone who breeds to better the species avoids them like the plague. Because of heavy inbreeding show mice seldom live beyond a year and bloodlines are riddled with horrid genetic flaws and defects. Then you had the pet breeders who actually breed mice for the betterment of the species. Pet breeders still kept beautiful mice but they weeded out the flaws from bloodlines such as popular tumors and weak immune systems. Pet breeders mice also lived an average of 3 years, more than the general lifespan of mice which is 1-2 years. 

It got me wondering do any better breeders do this? Breed for health and temperament quality over having perfect show betta's? I know most show betta's are horridly inbreed and have weaker immune systems than a fighter who will be more hardy so to me the fighter is actually the one being bred for the better of the species. 

Some things I always thought were good pointers for breeding high quality pet betta's

Hardiness and health: Strong immune systems and fish who are less likely to get sick from stress.
Docile: Less aggressive animals that can be kept with other fish more easily.
Finnage: Sacrifice bigger fancy tails for lighter fins, easier to swim, less tail biting from heavy fins.
Longevity: Living longer than average for betta's

I know with pet breeders a lot of pet breeders have breed the aggression out of their mice. Most people don't know this but normally keeping two male mice together means they will kill each other. Male mice are very aggressive and territorial and will skin each other alive with their teeth and gnaw off each others limbs until one or both die. Like Betta's it will not always happen right away but it will happen. Pet breeders especially in the UK have breed this out COMPLETELY and can safely keep males together under the same conditions you can keep females together. No "you need 10 gallons per mouse and thousands of hiding spots or they will fight." but "You need 10 gallons for 3 mice, one hut...they will snuggle together for warmth at night." YEAH...that is kind of a big thing, even neutered male mice will kill each other but UK three intact males can live peacefully together because that was bred out of them.

It just hit me since i have studied near 5 years now to be a mouse breeder and am in the next few years getting my first bucks from a breeder in France because her bucks are basically 100% perfect for pet breeding stock and even show breeders buy from her because her quality physically and genetically is so superior they freak. Made me think if there are two versions of breeders in the mouse and even rat world then I questioned if there was a pet vs show breeder's in the betta world as well.

And when I say pet betta I don't mean breeders who just breed petco fish, I am talking about breeders who have tracked bloodlines for 10 years to make sure they have the healthiest animals they could possibly breed with the longest life lines. As pet mouse breeders actually tend to put MORE work into their bloodlines and are pickier than show breeders who don't care if their buck's died at 6 months from cancer.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

From the little I have read here, OldFishLady seems to be that kind of breeder.

OFL if you come in here do you sell your betta fish?


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I have noticed OFL is a lot like a mouse breeder I know in Wisconsin. Was always the best breeder I got to meed in the stares. I wonder if there are many more breeders out there like that and they just slip onto the sidelines because showing seems to be more of the bigger deal.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Hmm... I wonder that as well. I will and always only breed healthy, hardy, and strong, but I also want my fish to be attractive and sellable, so as a responsable you must find a balance between the two.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

That's the kind of breeder that I aim to be, whether it be rabbits, or bettas. Health and temperament is very important in the pet trade, and sometimes in show also. If your dog, goat, horse, cat or rabbit bites the judge, you are often disqualified!

Frequently, the health or temperament of a bloodline will fall to the wayside in favor of perfect conformation.


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

I wonder this too! So far OFL is the only one I'm aware of.

I myself when I finally get a good spawn will only breed healthy and happy fish, but I will be breeding to get the correct finnage and form as well.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I wish more people bred for the betterment of the species. I have ofter fanticized about breeding my own type of betta. A new breed specifically bred for their health and temperment. Females who are better in sororities. Males without overburdened tails or bad spines. All with big personailities who interact with owners and could be placed in a community. The physical characteristics would evolve on their own. Ahhhh, I would love it so 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Temperament you most likely won't be able to breed with these fish.. rodents have a higher IQ, fish live directly from instinct. Even their "personalities" are not a sign of individuals but of a learned behavior of association. That is about as far as we can go when it comes to changing the way a fish "thinks" and "acts". 
Yes, some people are able to keep different sexed individuals together in a tank, but it's a process of picking out fish that aren't as aggressive (which happens in every animal), and the right set up. But in every spawn from two passive fish, almost all of them will be naturally aggressive. People like OFL still have troubles with many of their becoming aggressive. It isn't gone away at all - but rather the fish deal with it themselves. 

What's to say that if we do breed these guys to be very passive, what would happen? Would people try to stick two or three into a one gallon tank, as they still only "live in puddles" but now are friendly to boot? Would their colors or fins not be as brilliant because they don't need to scare off intruders and show another male/female that he is bigger than the other? Would they still interact with us (which being alone most of the time encourages that behavior) or would they be like most of the other fish out there and in time ignore what is going on outside of the tank?

Why mess with nature?

Can breed for health - pick healthy adults and give the fry the best.. no reason not to. But even then you can't guarantee that every fish you sell will be healthy in a month or so because of a health issue internally that was not shown previously?

By breeding for a healthy betta with good genes, strong finnage you are bettering the species.. a breeder who breeds for show won't breed sickly, weak bettas. As for inbreeding, majority of the breeders only inbreed to a point. They know when to stop.. every animal out there in the world inbreeds if given the chance. If the bettas are strong and healthy then their offspring will be too. Again, breeders inbreed to a point and then they stop and bring in new genes. 

Can't think of these little ones as if they all think and feel like us, have actual personalities.. they are simply animals with instincts, and good breeders will keep them healthy and beautiful. It's people who start to breed with no research, not the proper equipment who don't breed for the health and well being of the fish.. but those people will either give up after a spawn or two, so you don't have to worry about them, or will learn as they go and become good breeders. One doesn't spend the thousands it costs to breed bettas, and the hours each day you have to spend to care for them to breed bad bettas.

I personally would rather have my bettas be what they are, even though these are not bettas that you find in the wild, but they were created by us.. and I like the way they turned out. 
So how about that? These fancy bettas aren't what mother nature created, but were created by humans.. so you gotta keep in mind that the people who spent years and years perfecting them do actually care about them. 

As for deformities like bad spines and such..? Every living thing out there, humans included, give birth to deformities. One cannot simply stop that. Period. We humans have evolved to caring for our own who are deformed.. animals will either eat their deformed babies or nature kills them. But no one can stop that from happening, no matter how healthy the parents are.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yeah... I so went on a tangent.. lol sorry!

Having friendly bettas can be fun, but again, being how they are is what makes them stand out


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

There's a lot of social fish species who are still social with their keepers. Even "dumb" ones like goldfish. But the people who originated the breed, bred for aggressive fish. That is something controlled by breeding. Yes, there will be throwbacks, who will be more aggressive than other fish.

In all reality though, how many of the things that genuine breeders are working on, get out to the general public? There's a lot of varieties that I've only recently learned about, and some of it I learned here. I didn't know about the other betta species until I signed up with a forum in the first place.

In my honest opinion, we need to focus on the health and longevity of bettas before we try messing with temperament.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Exactly, and that is what majority of the breeders are doing. We can't really change the longevity by all that much - but breeders who sell their fish do aim for healthy, if they sold weak fish then they wouldn't sell any because word of mouth will get out in the community. So the health is part of the whole package that breeders (including show breeders) do aim for. They want healthy, strong fish to breed and to show and sell to others. You'd be surprised how big the actual betta community is out there. This forum doesn't even rank in the % hehe


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

Didn't today's betta splendens come from betta imbellis which were much less aggressive?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Nope, they are Betta splendens.. same species as the wild, but alternated to what we see in pet stores. The wild version have short fins, dark body with iridescent coloring.. and they are just as territorial and aggressive as the ones we have as pets.. actually, our version is a bit tamer due to us being able to keep females together. Naturally females are solo creatures who don't stake claim to territory.

Imbellis is a different sub species and should not be kept with the splendens (wild or man made version).


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

What I was talking about is breeding for health and socialbility. I would cull fish with health problems, tail bitters, females who attack other sorrority members, ones that are overly agressive as well as overly shy, and so on. In other words, fish that are bboth physically and psycologically healthy. Good appatites, active, and healthy Bettas for people to enjoy. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Even by culling to where you ONLY have passive fish, each spawn from them (and from those, and then those, and so on) will always have majority aggressive bettas. You can't really determine how calm a fish is.. it took one of my boys two years before he first started tail biting. The females who are attacking other females are doing what is nature to them. Decades upon decades of breeding these fish have yet to produce a sociable betta - at least where they all can live peacefully. Thousands of breeders have tried, but it's in their nature, they are fish and can't be trained to be nice. 
To have a semi successful grouping of males and females, do what the people who have them do - get a 75g+ tank and plant it very very heavily. Keeping them like that doesn't make them docile, and breeding from ones who live like that doesn't either. 

It's a dream to many to have friendly, sociable bettas.. but after over a hundred years of breeding them it hasn't been able to happen yet.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

LadyV you might want to look into getting some Imbellis! From what I've read they can live together peacefully and are attractive but not much variation in color.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Interesting thread, LV. Thanks.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

i like wat ur asking i have heard or show breaders cuting the tails for perfic fins but from wat i have lean in the pass 2 years from my bettas is if u have a large tank they will live a fairly peacefull life but if u take out 1 of them for a day n put it back war will break out, right now i have some 7months olds wat look like plakat liveing in half of a 60gal drum n all fins r still in tack oh n they r 3 females guppys with them too stiill have all fins hehe but no babys tho bettas can live with other fish if they have room to swin i have a old fiberglass bath tub with two 3-4 month spawn growing out in it 1 of my nefews trow in a few guppys swordtails n some mollys n again every 1 doin great but no babys r seen


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I mean I get it's nature but we bred it out of mice and trust me, it's nature in male mice domestic or wild to destroy each other and it's taken thousands of years to breed that aggression from mice (as mice were first domesticated in ancient China) In fact male mice are more aggressive than male betta's as even in the wild a male mouse will kill a retreating male to cut him from the gene pool. Male mice even go to the extream of gnawing off each other testies since they are fairly large. It's rather insane and even sadder most people don't know this and lead hundreds of male mice to a gruesome death. 

Nor is breeding aggression and breeding for health an easy task. As I learned if a problem arises in a bloodline not even the healthy ones in the bloodline can be bred. The whole bloodline has to be stopped and you have to start over again with new stock. It's also tracking adults their whole life to see future problems arise which most mouse breeders do for many generations before they start even selling their mice.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Aggression: IMO it's not true that betta aggression was bred for. It's their basic nature. The difference is that in the wild they will remain in sororities while in captivity they will be isolated - a condition that will strengthen mentality.

For those who have spawned can try; 1. let one batch grow naturally. Do not move them, do not disturb them. Do water changes with them inside and don't refill by pouring but let the water flow slowly. 2. Constantly move batch 2 ... say every 3-4 weeks.

Watch the second batch become aggressive in no time, while the first batch will usually remain docile much longer. "Fight" them (meaning flare) and see which stresses out first.

Also compare a betta in a sorority since it hatched to a jarred individual since 2 months old. See the aggression difference. This applies to both males and females.

Age also influences aggression - older bettas are not as aggressive (in sororities) as younger bettas. I guess they're too mature to worry about senseless squabbles. LOL But don't be fooled, they will fight if challenged.

So if you want to create a more docile betta, don't disturb it too much, don't make it feel threatened/stressed. It should be more docile (not always - individual character also influences aggressiveness). 

Theoretically - since wild species are more docile, cross breed them to wilds and selectively breed non aggressive pairs. They should eventually become less aggressive to a point where they can be housed together. 

Unfortunately most betta hobbyists prefer their aggressive character thus will not breed for docile splendens.

Sorry for the long post


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

wat u say here is true 1 other thing i have notice is older males dont really flare as much as the young males do i have some spawns that have never seen any other fish but bettas so when they see any other they flare at once some of the people that buy bettas from me want to keep them with other fish so wat my nefew did teach me how to get them to live with other fish with out any problems they tend to learn a few tricks form other fish n i have some i keep for the guys who just want them by themselfs so for me my job is kinda of hard to find good bettas with no info on them so when i spawn a inported fish from a pet store it is all ways the ?? of wat is this i will get out of them so any fish that can out run them is good tank buddy to teach them to behave


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I have seen them "peacefully" co-exist (both sexes) in as small of tanks as 20 gallons by some breeders. But as indjo mentioned about not moving them.. it is hard to not move them - so in the time apart they can revert to aggression. Even females who were housed together and then shipped together will become aggressive in just the couple of days being shipped. Why I tend to see more peaceful co-existence in fish that breeders have rather than ones people purchase online or in stores.

What the OP was wanting you will find in most of the wilds - heartier and less aggressive.. normally they will posture and do some small fighting until one swims away, self preservation comes into play there, very little killing. So for healthier fish with shorter fins and not as aggressive with longer lives we basically have to scratch everything that has been done to them and just go with pure wilds. Except the splendens variety, as if you place a couple wild males together in a smaller tank they will fight still to a point and some will kill as they can easily feel trapped by the glass walls.

It's not truly bred out of mice as it is.. it's still common for them to kill one another often. I've kept rats and mice, ran a rescue for them years ago (about 8-9 yrs ago) and had dozens of each and kept them in cages, some as tall as 6ft and would find a mouse here and there eaten by another - even the females would do it. So I believe humans can't fully take out something that mother nature had put into animals. Why we can't keep lions as house cats, and why dogs can and do bite people out of the blue - these are animals and nothing we do will change that. Can we alter some of their behavior? Yeah, but generally through training and breeding specifics, but that is never a guarantee. 
Can't blame breeders for not breeding peace into these fish.. not fair in my opinion. I've met dozens of breeders and each one care greatly on the health and well being of their fish and if they get some pretty fish then that is a bonus. Some like the aggression, some don't.. but temperament breeding has been tried and tried for many decades with little success.

So yeah, I would love to fill one of my large tanks with pretty pretty males and have them living peacefully, but I just don't think that these fish could ever be as peaceful that is needed so the everyday keeper can house them together. Can't guarantee your new puppy won't be a biter, or the kitten you got won't hiss and scratch you all the time as an adult. And we've been breeding them for hundreds of years, if not thousands.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If I had a choice of breeding a super delicate betta VS a hardy, perhaps not show quality betta... Hardy all the way. That's what I breed anyways. I want to still breed quality, but my way. No super heavy finned bettas... Perhaps breed medium to short lengthed halfmoons. My crowntails are not 180 degree spread... But people here do not seem to mind. They are not showing, they are owning.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

now that u say so 1 dont think they should try to bread for this supper fins too couse i have seen is when u cross the HM to a DT wat they dont tell u is the amount of waste fish u get just to get 1 supper looking fish wat u get is a lot of fish that r DT but r not even n u can sell them to nobody unless u sell them as feeders so i dont try to do that i would only try to bread a DT to a strigh tail for color where i would work with them but to spawn 200+ just to get 1 fish no i wont do that


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It's common knowledge with breeders to not mix fin types without knowing that you will have to work with them for a few generations to "clean" them up. Sometimes people will mix fin types for color and then work on the fins.. even breeding an HMxHM will get you some, if not a bunch, of DTs and SDTs. 

It depends on what you are aiming for, the type of buyers and whether or not you want to show your fish. If you are just wanting to breed to sell cheap to people who want pets then they don't need to be perfect, or near perfect.. they are just pets. But if you aim to sell to breeders and show people (where you will get the most for your fish) then you will work on bettering the fins. Most breeders aren't trying to get "heavy" fins, but more uniformed fins and sometimes the fins are a bit heavy.. with those you will then choose a female with nice tight fins to keep the next generation's fins more reigned in.

There are no "waste" fish - you can sell them to local fish stores for pennies or through ads in the newspaper.. but to make actual money from them you will want to make sure the fins are proper standards, etc, so you will choose the best finned ones you can find/have.

So, if you want certain colors/patterns there is no reason not to breed a HMxDT to get some HM and SDT with that color/pattern and then choose the better finned from those and breed those, etc. It does happen that out of a spawn you only get a couple good ones that are breed worthy.. it happens all the time. It's part of breeding, being selective and working with generations. If it wasn't done, we wouldn't have the strong variety we have now.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

hummm very true to wat u r saying i just went in the yard n check some of my juvies in they grow out tank the spawn is about 200+ n they get picky just befor feeding n after as i got near the tank they started to swarm lol the lil guys act like they r never full n some of they started to flare at each other may be the filter is working them like if they r in a gym , aggression is part of they life and why i say this is from when i first work with them a few years ago i use to just buy any betta that look good or wat i think some 1 would want to buy from me a week or 2 after i had them and trying to bread them wat i notice is large females would beat up males if they r not aggressive n that at that and still seem to be the way they work i can remember in the early 2000 i had sold a woman some bettas n she call me about a year and half later wanting to buy a very large male , at that time i use to buy bread a few times n sell the male n females, wat the woman show me was a very huge female and she told me she had 2 of them they use to live in a 30 gal tank with good food n care so the first place she went was 1 of the pet stores where the owner use to bread them too n she told me the 2 females had kill most of this males , other guys that were breading bettas did not want to bread them after wat they hear wat happen luckly for me 1 of my friend had a steel bule male he had from me about the same time at that time all the bettas we could get were VT so i had to trim the male tail this was about 31/2 inc with tail very huge male too
at first he would not look at the female so wat i did they was put a younger male next to his tank for a few hours n it work like a dream


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Myates said:


> It's not truly bred out of mice as it is.. it's still common for them to kill one another often. I've kept rats and mice, ran a rescue for them years ago (about 8-9 yrs ago) and had dozens of each and kept them in cages, some as tall as 6ft and would find a mouse here and there eaten by another - even the females would do it. So I believe humans can't fully take out something that mother nature had put into animals. Why we can't keep lions as house cats, and why dogs can and do bite people out of the blue - these are animals and nothing we do will change that. Can we alter some of their behavior? Yeah, but generally through training and breeding specifics, but that is never a guarantee.



With a rescue NEVER put petshop mice together, even females unless properly introduced over a week and the cage 100% cleaned and monitored. Petshop mice are aggressive because they are breed in mills. If they have a bunch of aggressive mice making babies they don't care. The only mice you can trust males together with are males from tracked bloodlines where the aggression is bred out and yet it can be breed fully out. I know someone who has been breeding 30+ years and the past 10 years her bucks have all been living together without anything more than a humping fest to show the dominant male. She worked many years to breed a satin tan strain that would be more docile, it's also how we domesticated them, by breeding those mice most inclined to adapt to captivity and adapt to socializing with us. As far as rats they are the same thing, even wild rats are not aggressive with each other to point of death since they are meant to live in large colonies in the wild called mischeifes. Again it's poor breeding or letting aggressive and violent rats reproduce to create aggressive and violent offspring who will attack people and other rats making them unsafe pets and unsafe animals. A lot of poor behavior in cats and dogs is even debated to be from poor breeding which happens a lot due to things like mills and backyard breeders but normally the dogs and cats purchased from breeders have less chance of being vicious and attacking people or having problems such as food aggression etc. Since all good breeders breed for temperament as well as conformation and health. You can tell a bad breeder by how poor their animals temperaments are and best to avoid them or you could end up with an animal that you'll be putting down due to attacking someone someday. I know it well too since we only ever use to get our dogs from good quality breeders and our dogs never had any negative behavior, then the first dog we rescued from a friend, bought from a pet store so it was a horribly bred puppy mill dog. Owned it a year and it bit someone unprovoked. We had the dog put down as it was a risk especially with small children coming to our home. Went back to only getting dogs from breeders and have yet to have any issues with our dogs once again.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

LadyV, I get mutts, and I've never had a problem


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Breeding plays a part in genetics, but animals will be animals - I've had more success with mutts than with purebreds. If someone is working on a line exclusively then they can do selective breeding to have some calmer animals, but it doesn't mean their animal nature was wiped away - just less likely for that particular breeder (of any animal). Does not mean that as a whole species it's temperament is calm/better and that aggressiveness won't be there. Just less likely for those specific ones from the one specific breeder. An instinct isn't wiped away after a few generations..

Also keep in mind we can't really compare a trainable mammal such as mice with fish - her mice are trained to be more docile, a learned behavior in ways because they are kept together (males) from the beginning of their life, and they are handled since the very beginning, which plays a part in ways how docile they will be as adults. I am positive that she has had many instances where a male/female was aggressive and had to be removed, etc. But the chances are a bit slimmer due to them being together since birth and being handled.. they learned not to fear nor bite. Can't really do that with fish that live their life based off of instinct alone.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Well taking dogs again it isn't instinct for a dog to hurt humans. Looking at wolves it's instinct to avoid humans. Even feral dogs avoid humans as best they can. When a dog shows aggression and attacks people it's poor breeding, NEVER instinct. Seldom in dog attacks are people doing anything wrong only going about their day when a dog attacks them. Same with dog fights, it isn't instinct for a dog to fight without a reason, it's breed into them. Even in wolf packs conflicts are constantly avoided by a hierarchy and fights seldom break out within the pack structure because everyone understands their part. 

I also read that scientists had conducted an experiment with male betta's which was rather interesting. They brought up three batches of betta's, one raised together, one raised in jars where they could view each other, and one where they were raised in jars and their view was cut off. The most aggressive betta's were the ones who never got to see other bettas and the least aggressive were the males raised together. They built a hierarchy when they lived together and there was little fighting involved and little stress and the lower betta's understood not to start conflicts and the top dog kept watch on them and got first pick of food, space, etc but conflicts were rare. The betta's who never saw other betta's when put in tanks with other betta's instantly fought each other and even after a few days together were still fighting and had stress lines. The betta's who were in jars but could see each other were put together and fought but after some time like those in the tank put together a pecking order and they had less issues.

It was decided that betta's have a certain language they fail to learn when alienated like any animal really. Because they do not learn this they do not understand other fish when they try to be submissive and assume their is still a threat therefore they have to keep fighting and are in constant stress not knowing what their rival is going to do.

They also tested that male and female betta's who were left with their father longer (meaning he wasn't removed right after they were free swimming) were less aggressive during courting. Thought this was all very interesting stuff.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

When a dog attacks a human it isn't poor breeding at all.... it's that the dog was either not acclimated properly to people, or the dog was fearful. A dog who was not properly acclimated or is afraid of a person for any reason will go on instinct alone and will give warning signs such as body posturing and showing of the teeth. It's humans that either continue to advance towards the dog when they are given the warning signs that the dog attacks.. on instinct = "I'm scared, they are coming closer, I'm afraid of being hurt, I'll lash out to protect myself". 
If a dog bites "for no reason" it's because it wasn't properly trained as a young pup. It is vital to train your dog how to behave while they are young, if you don't then you do run the risk of being bitten. Period. A dog left tied up most of it's life or grew up in a house with rowdy kids that ran around yelling, etc, are more likely to bite as they have learned to "rough house" or guard itself.
It's instinct that causes them to react to situations that WE put them into. It has NOTHING to do with breeding. If you want, I can get my boyfriend who trains dogs, who grew up with dog trainers to tell you all about how it's learned behavior and instinct that causes a dog to bite - and it's root is from it being an animal.

ANY animal that grows up solitary is more likely to be aggressive towards another of it's own kind. And it doubles that with animals that have it in their core to be aggressive (such as bettas). So that test really just says what is common knowledge to anyone who knows animals.
What it doesn't tell you is how long had those that grew up together lasted together? How many were in what size tank? How was the tank planted? How did they rate the amount of aggression? Did they use all of the fish from the spawn? Or did they just pick out certain ones?
It's not language they failed to learn, it's the fact that an animal grew up in a certain circumstances and then placed in a situation where it felt threatened and trapped. How in the world is that an accurate assessment on an animal that is programmed within their own biology to fight for their territory/life?

Oh.. and something that was mentioned to me by another breeder which rings true (as I can attest to this with some of my breeding pairs), females prefer aggressive males, most females will kill/chase off non aggressive males.. they prefer aggressive males to protect the eggs.
Two of my females will chase away and terrorize any of my "docile" males to the point where I have to take the males out, destress them and teach them not to be fearful with females.. so aggression plays a part in breeding as well.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I watch my wild betta fry growing out as this is all I have to base my own experiences on, and generally the only fighting that occurs is based on flaring and display. Usually two juveniles will start circling each other slowly and flaring. Then there might be one or two nips and then the losing fish backs off and after a brief chase the winner stops pursuit and they both go on their way. 

I think when a fish is grown out alone from a very young age it misses out on learning many of the normal social cues, and so becomes a lot more aggressive because it can't read the signals the other fish is giving. 

It's like how puppies removed from their mother too early miss a lot of vital socialisation such as learning bite inhibition.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I agree to a point, but even in a spawn you tend to have one or some that need to removed due to aggression. They learn their cues, but it's still hardwired in them to become territorial. And some wild betta species are more docile, etc.. I am only going from the splendens angle 

Have to ask about the experiment though.. was this the one where they realized once they got the bettas to be docile they stopped breeding? Species needs what it was given to survive, otherwise bye bye splendens.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah I do agree that bettas need some aggression to spawn. You can see it in how aggressively they behave towards each other in courtship. My poor burdigala male is ripped to shreds because he wanted to spawn and the female was not going to take his crap. 

I sometimes wonder whether the aggression they show towards each other during spawning is a test of the fitness of each other. Most female bettas are going to want a strong, healthy male who is aggressive enough and dominant enough to protect his nest from competitors and predators. Likewise, a male is going to want a strong, healthy female to spawn with as this is probably going to give him the healthiest spawn and most fertile eggs. 

I spawned a sibling pair of splendens a couple of times and even though the male did not touch the female once during courtship, they still would flare and display to each other before and during the act of spawning.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

That's it exactly, in my opinion. No male/female of any animal species wants a weak mate. They want strong, healthy genes to pass along to their offspring for better survival. It's all part of their courtship.. this is a betta's way of saying "Hey, look at me.. I'm big, strong and tough!".. lol and the girl is like "Oh hai! Look at my curvalicious tummy.. I've got some eggs for you!"

lol.. 

My whole argument is that we can't expect to change an animal species to fit our fancy. They will always rebel in some way - God, nature, whatever you call it, had put them together the way they were meant to be, the way they liked.. it's not up to us, nor can we, change something so important as their way of life (sort to speak).. if we mess with it, then something else screws up - in this case it could be breeding. Can't breed, then no fish to carry on the "docile" "gene".

And that breeders don't just focus on fins.. they are always working and breeding the healthiest, strongest fish.. it's the mass producers that sell you the VTs at Walmart that are causing their life spans to be short (for those particular fish).. not breeders.

About an hour ago I posted a question in one of my betta groups about breeding for temperament, etc.. and I've gotten a ton of replies.. makes me feel a bit confident on where I stand. Just can't change evolution because you want to have a bunch of males squeezed into a tank together because you like them. Gotta work with what we have 

I think this pretty much sums it up for me, which was posted by another "Lets get a pair of Mako Sharks and breed them to NOT eat people". 

Sorry if I sound rude, but you brought in dogs and mice and compared them to fish, etc. I just have to giggle some


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I agree. I also don't think you have much hope of changing their behaviour too much, as until science proves otherwise, fish run pretty much on instinct. They can learn by association but I think that's about it. 

Besides, I have found that aggressive fish tend to be much more personable than schooling fish. Most of the larger cichlids and other predatory fish like some of our big natives here, are usually quite friendly and willing to interact with their owner.

Having owned schooling fish in the past, I find they are usually pretty bland personality wise. I think if you somehow removed all the aggression from bettas you would be taking away a lot of what makes them so popular. 

I mean what is more awesome than a betta in full display flaring and carrying on? 

I think the trouble with fish is that there is no health test like in dogs and cats, so you can't really test your breeders before you spawn from them. The best you can do is cull any fry of sub-standard health or quality, and if two fish continually produce poor quality spawns, retire them and don't continue with that particular line. Other than that, there's no real way of knowing just how healthy or mentally fit your bettas truly are.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yep 

I've been raising/keeping all sorts of tropical fish for the last 20 years and I find certain ones are much more fun.. I used to keep a lot of angels, and I always kept one or two in a tank without any other angels and they were so sociable with me I fell for them because of that. The ones in schools, not so much.

Wet vets are very hard to come by, regular vets don't learn/deal with fish.. so you can't get them looked at like other animals. Guess all there is we can do is take the conditioning period and make sure they are healthy - if they are ill then you should notice something within a couple of weeks.

BTW, love your fish room  Keeping your page on a favorite's list as I'm wanting to start research on other wild species..


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Myates, deformities DO happen, even in healthy lines, but it CAN be exaserbated by constant inbreeding. In nature occasional inbreeding occures... But NOT to the point of human interferance. There are codes in DNA that repeat every time like is bred to like. 

This specific type of breeding DOES NOT HAPPEN in the wild. A halfmoon does not specifically go breed with another HM, and a crowntail wont turn down a VT for spawning. What we have done is to introduce an ARTIFICIAL linniege that whether we like it or not, has serious reprecussions. Just like you said about a "healthy fish" possibly having something wrong internally, our fish have possible "******" in their DNA that may not affect them, but WILL show up the more often it is matched with its like.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I know deformities happen, I have never said that they don't happen.. unsure where you got that from at all. 

What repercussion are you talking about.. I am SO lost at what your argument is?
Humans have developed longer fins and colors that are not found in the wild betta splenden.. but our developed bettas have, over the many decades, adjusted to the way they are.

This whole debate is about making the betta splendens docile.. which is unhealthy for the fish as a whole - not only is it something we technically cannot remove, but it's an important part in staying alive and breeding. 

Inbreeding is common in every animal, even humans.. true breeders of splendens only in breed to a point, just like with dogs.. they stop when that point is reached. If there is anything noticeably wrong with the fish they will stop breeding and bring in a new mate, or stop all together. If there are deformities, those bettas who are deformed are not bred, and if they are then they aren't in business for long as people would hear about them.. 

Still.. confused.. what it sounds like you are saying at the end with "our fish have possible "******" in their DNA that may not affect them, but WILL show up the more often it is matched with its like".. it sounds like you are saying people should not breed same fin types.. what does that have to do with turning an aggressive species into a docile one?


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

I think they're stating the point that when you have a breed, it's a small genetic pool. And with most domestic breeds, there are common genetic defects. Like German Shepherds and hip displaysia, or Great Danes and tumors, Daschunds and back problems. Sometimes in trying to keep things "pure", we condense the probability of these issues cropping up.

The easiest way to get away from that is outcrossing (mutts), but in doing so, we lose the integrity of the breeds that people have spent so much time developing. Like with my guppies, if bettas were allowed to outcross enough, they'll eventually just revert to wild type.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I understand that, most (good) breeders do outcross - usually using a true cambodian or black to "wipe the slate clean". There is nothing wrong with that, and that should be done after so many generations. I have never said to inbreed nonstop - I mentioned inbreed to a point before you have to bring in new genes, etc. But I don't believe there is any "*****" to any particular fin type yet - same species, same species as the wild splendens - but different fin growth/shape - just no particular health issue from fin types at this time.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Even though they're the same species, doesn't make them the same breed. And even with out crossing, the issues I discussed with other animals will eventually come into play. We haven't been domesticating bettas as long as dogs and cats.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Straying as this is from the original argument, I would imagine even in the wild there would be bottlenecks from time to time when populations shrunk down to only a few breeding fish. If the fish are in an isolated area and something like habitat destruction or drought causes the death of a large number of these fish, you are only going to have the same fish spawning amongst themselves. 

Also most other species outside of the splendens complex tend not to hybridise at all so even if by chance another fish of the same complex got into the area, once again you would be getting the same inbreeding happening because that fish would not be considered for spawning.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

You're right, Little. It does happen in the wild. And when it does, it's only for a few generations, domestication is a long-term bottleneck.

I really like how this is challenging all of us as betta keepers. A lot of good points are coming up, and it's all food for thought.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

that last part not so true if u let a spawn grow up with the father he domanate that tank so no other betta will flare in that tank so eazly now if 1 of the young females spawn with the father now they both become aggressive so in fish u may get lucky n get a set of bettas that go will with others n at same time i have a copper spawn is very aggressive n the type of copper they r maybe some 1 wanted them to be aggressive for show now the the male copper i use was from a pet store inported stock the female came from 4th generation line n that line did well with other fish 
right now i have 6 batchs ,2 batch is 100% local 4 r 50/50 n 1 is 100% off 2 inports , 1 batch witch is a 50/50 spawn r black snail killers
so i had to add some large gold snails to they tank to help keep the plant clean but they sledum flear at each other but just like some people behave the same way too


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

Myates said:


> I understand that, most (good) breeders do outcross - usually using a true cambodian or black to "wipe the slate clean". There is nothing wrong with that, and that should be done after so many generations. I have never said to inbreed nonstop - I mentioned inbreed to a point before you have to bring in new genes, etc. But I don't believe there is any "*****" to any particular fin type yet - same species, same species as the wild splendens - but different fin growth/shape - just no particular health issue from fin types at this time.


i for 1 want to have better bettas so if i follow wat u r sayin here in about 3-5 years i can have some very nice fish to scream about , now from 1 of my june-july spawn i use a dark red male that came out a red copper spawn to a cambodian female who had yellow in her background wat i go out of that spawn was some dark red about 60% adark yellow30% (i keep all of them)the othe 10% look kinda black but not pure black keep them too:-D i have plans for the dark yellow guys now Question if i cross the black looking bettas to my black copper or should i try to cross them to a black marble? lookin to get some black bettas (yes i like hard work):-D


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Ahhhhgggrg. Cell updated late. Blegh. I was commenting on a WAY earlier post on like, the 2nd page.

Im gonna try and collect the debate points before posting on my computer. Cant trust my phone...


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> Even though they're the same species, doesn't make them the same breed. And even with out crossing, the issues I discussed with other animals will eventually come into play. We haven't been domesticating bettas as long as dogs and cats.


The only problem with this...is that Cats and Dogs take FAR longer to breed than these fish. When you can spawn and breed within a few months, the genetic focus is accelerated as compared to "purebred" dogs and cats.

This is also due to the fact that each spawning can have HUNDREDS as compared to only 2-8 pups or kits...and sometimes a litter will have NO "breedable" purebreds. So a dog breeder would have to wait nearly a year and a half to retry, then another year for THOSE pups to mature.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay, honest question.. If you can't breed for temperament, how can you have something like a Caucasian ovcharka and then something like a Labrador? (dogs, I know we talked about how fish are simpler)..
And question 2 (about fish!) I thought wild bettas don't fight to the death (generally) but our domestic males will fight to the death, even if they have more than enough territory. Somehow it's just not clicking with me.
I know with male wrestling halfbeaks (not domestic) in a small bowl they will fight non stop, but once in a larger tank have no problem coexisting... This seems to be the case with certain wild bettas? But not our own? Like what am I missing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Okay, honest question.. If you can't breed for temperament, how can you have something like a Caucasian ovcharka and then something like a Labrador? (dogs, I know we talked about how fish are simpler)..
> And question 2 (about fish!) I thought wild bettas don't fight to the death (generally) but our domestic males will fight to the death, even if they have more than enough territory. Somehow it's just not clicking with me.
> I know with male wrestling halfbeaks (not domestic) in a small bowl they will fight non stop, but once in a larger tank have no problem coexisting... This seems to be the case with certain wild bettas? But not our own? Like what am I missing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you CAN breed for temperament... Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox This is information on the Siberian study into domestication.

These scientists specifically bred for DOCILE nature. ANd on the flip side, they specifically took the MOST aggressive pups and bred them to get EXTREMELY feral foxes.

I believe this can be done with ANY conscious creature.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Well that's what I thought but other people say different so I am wondering why they say so..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Bias, ignorance, or other proofs to the contrary?


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

I also think its a basic misunderstanding of true "inbreeding" and the differences between that and closing the gaps in DNA by limiting the genepool.

In the wild this only happens when a species is left in isolation... and there is close familial breeding...but no real inbreeding in the sense as Humans have taken it.

Some speculate that we are taking the process of evolution and accelerating it without truly understanding the consequences, or what goes on behind that fancy double helix or mystical veil of epigenetics.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Fish and foxes are entirely different in their brain functions. My fish jump out a lot being wild and every time I scoop them up and put them back in. I would think if a fox did something like that which only ever gave a negative result, it would quickly learn not to jump. 

So far I have been unsuccessful in my attempts to train my bettas not to jump. No matter how many times they end up falling two metres to the ground and getting carpet stuck all over them. 

Fish are pretty basic animals. I think a lot is just associative learning and instinct like I mentioned in a previous post. 

Also I do think aggression in betta species is very much so linked to spawning. I think without the aggression it would be very difficult to spawn bettas. I believe OFL or someone else a while back, mentioned that they found the more docile bettas to be fairly average spawners. 

Like I said even my wild bettas (and some of these are wild-caught so about as 'pure' and untouched as you can get), are quite aggressive to each other from time to time. One of my male and female pairs have torn each other to shreds in the last couple of days for reasons I can't really ascertain. My rutilans female had half her dorsal fin torn off by her male around a day or so before they spawned. 

Probably the most peaceful betta species I can think of would be channoides or albimarginata. Multiple males and females are generally able to live very peacefully together in the same tank and mine were always very gentle with smaller tankmates. 

Other than that I would say aggression is very much a natural part of these fish. It just varies by degrees based on the species.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

So does a true wild splendens have the same aggression as a domestic one?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think splendens must be one of the more aggressive wild species because they were selected over imbellis, smaragdina and others of that complex to be bred for fighting. 

But when I had imbellis who are quite similar in behaviour, they didn't have the 'fight to the absolute death' drive that I saw in my male splendens. I had a male splendens get through the divider be nearly beaten to death, and still try to get back in with the other male to continue fighting. That to me is pretty darn aggressive. 

That is why I got bored with splendens. I like having fish that I can keep in the same tank and 90% of the time know they aren't going to mutilate or kill each other.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

> They also tested that male and female betta's who were left with their father longer (meaning he wasn't removed right after they were free swimming) were less aggressive during courting. Thought this was all very interesting stuff.


Wild splendens are not as aggressive/vicious as domestic. Isolation will make them aggressive. I often keep my batch together until they die, either with father or on their own. An adult male will keep fights to a minimum, but will not stop it completely. These will never be as aggressive as the ones I jar/isolate. They will flare and fight, but only to a few bites. Only few will be too vicious to be in a sorority. Unlike the isolated ones, that will fight to the bitter end. I do agree that splendens are the most aggressive out of all the Betta group.

IMO/IME color also determine aggressiveness. Light colors are often less aggressive . . . sorry has *weaker mentality* compared to dark colors. The strongest of all is the wild color (a mixture of black and green/turquoise). Light colors will fight but stress easier than dark colors. This is why lighter colors tend to grow slower than darker colors, though not always. IME the lower mentality in dark colors are Blue and red. I'm not sure if this is still true since this species have been excessively mixed bred. But you won't find a light colored "fighter" until this day.
........................

Deformities do happen regardless how you breed them. But these defects can be minimized. As far as I know OFL has succeeded in minimizing, if not eliminating DT defects. She can breed her DT together with no problem. SO if everyone breeds for Health, it can eventually be eliminated or at least minimized.

The problem is that new breeders often don't know what causes certain defects and will breed them, making it worse. They then distribute these to the local market and spread them. . . . this is also a reason why many don't advise breeding LFS bettas.

Known breeders will always try to avoid breeding unhealthy pairs and will cull the whole batch including the parents. Though they inbreed and sometimes try to make fins larger or thicker, they know what they're doing and will take necessary measures to ensure that their line/s remain healthy. I've heard some claim that their rose line are safe to breed. . . . in fact I've seen someone (forgot who) here breed (I think) Karen's RT and didn't get any deformed fry.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

indjo said:


> Wild splendens are not as aggressive/vicious as domestic. Isolation will make them aggressive. I often keep my batch together until they die, either with father or on their own. An adult male will keep fights to a minimum, but will not stop it completely. These will never be as aggressive as the ones I jar/isolate. They will flare and fight, but only to a few bites. Only few will be too vicious to be in a sorority. Unlike the isolated ones, that will fight to the bitter end. I do agree that splendens are the most aggressive out of all the Betta group.
> 
> IMO/IME color also determine aggressiveness. Light colors are often less aggressive . . . sorry has *weaker mentality* compared to dark colors. The strongest of all is the wild color (a mixture of black and green/turquoise). Light colors will fight but stress easier than dark colors. This is why lighter colors tend to grow slower than darker colors, though not always. IME the lower mentality in dark colors are Blue and red. I'm not sure if this is still true since this species have been excessively mixed bred. But you won't find a light colored "fighter" until this day.
> ........................
> ...


that explain why my black coppers show so much aggression compair to my pastel blues i had to cut the copper in 4 groups while i pick out pastel to supper grow then in jars n still of all the juvies the black copper,copper n royal blue flare n blow bubbles long before the others but i make them first choise for most people that come n see them


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Fish and foxes are entirely different in their brain functions. My fish jump out a lot being wild and every time I scoop them up and put them back in. I would think if a fox did something like that which only ever gave a negative result, it would quickly learn not to jump.
> 
> 
> Fish are pretty basic animals. I think a lot is just associative learning and instinct like I mentioned in a previous post.


I have to disagree on this. The brains may differ, but instinct IS something that is passed on genetically. Temperament and Instinct, the ability to learn from actions by associative learning, these can be passed down. Fish have associative learning, it has been proven.

Aggression or docility are traits that have been PROVEN can be passed... But genetic defects other than, such as psychological issues, or possible hidden intolerance to types of water quality or disease are things that breeders CANT possibly know or look for when they are focused on form alone.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

indjo said:


> Wild splendens are not as aggressive/vicious as domestic. Isolation will make them aggressive. I often keep my batch together until they die, either with father or on their own. An adult male will keep fights to a minimum, but will not stop it completely. These will never be as aggressive as the ones I jar/isolate. They will flare and fight, but only to a few bites. Only few will be too vicious to be in a sorority. Unlike the isolated ones, that will fight to the bitter end. I do agree that splendens are the most aggressive out of all the Betta group.
> 
> IMO/IME color also determine aggressiveness. Light colors are often less aggressive . . . sorry has *weaker mentality* compared to dark colors. The strongest of all is the wild color (a mixture of black and green/turquoise). Light colors will fight but stress easier than dark colors. This is why lighter colors tend to grow slower than darker colors, though not always. IME the lower mentality in dark colors are Blue and red. I'm not sure if this is still true since this species have been excessively mixed bred. But you won't find a light colored "fighter" until this day.
> ........................


This is an interesting theory... And something I would like to look into myself. Would you possibly be interested in videotaping a comparison between the fish you have based on coloration?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Just have to say.. love the discussion now  Not much for me to say right now, I'm 100% on Little's page here, she says it all!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes, these kinds of discussion are always interesting and often may result in something new.

CD: Sorry, I don't keep that many colors at one time. I don't really like light colors, specially cambodian and pale/cellophane - though I sometimes need their genes. Currently I mainly have dark colors - black and turquoise/blue dragons. I concluded the above from my years of betta keeping. TBH, I started betta keeping for fighting (early 1970's). Out of all the colors, wild colors followed by turquoise tend to show more mentality. Blue, red, and light colors often will never really flare again once they're stressed or lost a fight. OR they need longer time in isolation to regain their mentality. While black and turquoise will usually flare after a day in isolation prior to losing a fight. None will fight that long once they've lost a fight - low mentality.

BTW; I differentiate "aggressive" - "vicious" - and "mentality". The first is immediately flaring as soon as they see a rival, other fish (different species), a stick, etc. Aggressive is not necessarily vicious and sometimes can be housed in sororities. Vicious is not necessarily aggressive and connot be housed in a sorority. A "chicken" who will not fight against other males may beat the life out of females - vicious. Mentality is something that makes them flare/fight longer - not easily stressed. Usually bettas grown in sororities (never isolated) will have low mentality and won't fight for long (NOT ALWAYS - the alfa's usually show higher mentality).

In the previous post I was talking about mentality related to color, not aggressiveness nor viciousness. But I haven't fought bettas in a very long time (I was only a dumb kid back then), so I don't know if color still determines their mentality. All I know is that today's fighters come in wild/natural colors. And I still believe that light colors such as white or cellophane have low mentality compared to their dark cousins.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Well the stupid site delete my whole massive post when I accidentally clicked something (wish this site would save your posts so you can go back and continue writing them) so I shall have to start over. 


To me, having kept and spawned wild species, aggression is just such a big part of these fish, and a perfectly natural behaviour. 

Most of my fish live as pairs, which is what most people want to be able to do with their ornamental splendens. However, my males still chase, intimidate, and inflict injury on their female, and vice versa. I wouldn't say they were cohabitating peacefully 100% of the time, because outside of spawning, males and females don't have a lot of use for each other. 

Sometimes I think some people (not saying anyone on this thread) get into a utopian style fantasy where their splendens are able to live side-by-side in male/female pairs. Unless you created a line of completely non-aggressive fish, there is still always going to be some tension from time to time. You just decrease the risk of serious injury or death. 

I did notice that by selecting for the more docile and 'domesticated' fox, a lot of undesirable traits started to come through (well for me anyway as they were breeding foxes and not dogs). Also I believe aggression is a part of the breed standard, and a lack of it is considered a serious fault. I got this from an Australian site and it was listed as being the IBC standard so I apologise if I am mistaken.



> 1. Constant full display (Betta splendens), but exhibits only aggressive (not violent) response to intruder (slight fault).
> 
> 2. Fins erect, but gills only occasionally flared, and exhibits only motion toward intruder (minor fault).
> 
> ...


Also, there seemed to be a lot of emphasis placed on the general health of the fish. Which seems at odds with much of what people are against in showing. 



> DISQUALIFYING FAULTS – ALL CLASSES
> 
> 2. Swimming difficulty (due to excess finnage or swim bladder disorder).
> 
> ...


So I don't think it is conductive to many breeders, especially if breeding for show, to produce fish that are unhealthy or mentally unfit (can't really think of better phrasing) as going by the standard these are not going to show well at all. 

Personally I think that spawning fish based only on their temperament is not the way to go. Breeders should be trying to strike a balance between the health, form and mental fitness of the fish they produce. 

According to the breed standard, a non-aggressive betta is as faulty as a betta with a hunch back or extremely poor scaling. So should we be encouraging the breeding of fish that don't meet the breed standard? I think if I wanted to start a line of hunch back DTs I would not have a lot of supporters here or elsewhere. 

I think the problem is when breeders try to flog off faulty fish as something special. Fish with scaling covering their eyes, fish with topline or body deformities and fish displaying obvious x-factor characteristics are just some of the offerings I have seen on AB. Sometimes I wonder if these breeders simply offer up their culls because they think some 'dumb' foreigner is going to buy their fish because it is expensive, exotic and has the prestigious title of being imported from Thailand, Indonesia etc. 

That to me is not only bad business practice, but is detrimental to the species. Fish that exhibit serious and debilitating faults should be culled before they even reach maturity. Not be stuck up on AB for big $$$. 

Not all show breeders are evil. Basement Bettas and Martinismommy are just two breeders I have seen on this forum who seem to produce healthy, show quality fish on a consistent basis. 

I think that sometimes the bemoaning of the wreck and ruin of the splendens species is more exaggerated than the actual reality. Generally the only time I had issues with my splendens was when it was a problem I created. I also think the problem lies mostly with the big wholesale farms who just pump out fish with only dollars in mind, rather than the smaller scale breeders. 

Some of those big farms that sell to stores and wholesalers are like the puppymills of the fish world. And we all know how great puppymills are for the betterment of dogs.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

The betta has naturally aggressive behavior, but at what point is there too much aggression? I have had fish that were perfectly capable of motion, had good water quality and food, yet STILL attacked their own fins. 

As to the aggression of fighting to the death... Ive never had any urge to put two bettas together, besides spawning and the sorority tank. The undesirable traits in the foxes were considered to be from a lack of adrenaline. But in bettas it seems to be completely unrelated to the color or form that breeders have now achieved, especially if fighter fish are more closer to the natural color. Although I cant imaging breeding fighting fish with long flowing tails... It seems counter productive.

So by the standards above for show, the aggression is a requirement, but what about in spawning? They will naturally flair and show off and nibble a bit, but the male and female arent supposed to fight to the death (In terms of having properly conditioned the pair for mating).

I dont think bettas that do not meet the standard should be bred, if a betta has a hunched back or is sickly or lack luster, this isnt something that should be passed on.

Unfortunately, a lot of people cant stand the thought of culling. They think it is unfair, or cruel. I usually just look at it as a lunch opportunity for my Oscars, circle of life.

Do you think there should be regulations on breeding? Kind of a "Pedigree Program" for Bettas? It would be very difficult for that to work, considering on how many fish can be spawned and raised within a year.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

No. This would mean (in America) the wiping out of veil tails, and many colour forms (such as black orchid). I for one love the wild colors on some fish that would simply not be acceptable in shows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Olympia said:


> No. This would mean (in America) the wiping out of veil tails, and many colour forms (such as black orchid). I for one love the wild colors on some fish that would simply not be acceptable in shows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some countries HAVE VT in shows though... and I NEVER understood why Black Orchid is not a coloration in shows. It should have its own standards. I have always wanted to breed black orchids....

(I dont particularly like the pedigree standards. Like for dogs, it makes it nearly impossible to register your own breed, and show a dog that FITS the standard, but wasnt born from parents with a pedigree...)


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

How many of those babies from those spawns SHOULD be bred though? I could see pedigrees being handy with show fish, but with your average "run of the mill" fish that aren't up to code, no. It's unnecessary.

EX: I know show rabbit breeders. They keep pedigrees for the over 200 rabbits that they produce in a year (I know that doesn't compare to 200 babies in a betta "litter", but bear with me), with exception to their "culls". Some go to freezer camp, some are sold as pets (which is what 90% of what my rabbits are).

I also know meat rabbit breeders. They don't keep pedigrees except for what they intend to sell to other breeders. But if the purchaser is only breeding for meat, they don't often buy a pedigree.

People tend to baby everything, and a lot of the ones that wouldn't make it in the wild, tend to live and because "fluffy deserves to have children", or "I can't take away it's reproductive rights", these "defective" animals are being bred.

IF I were to breed my pair, I would be culling heavily. I do it with the guppies, and it ensures that I only get what I want out of the pairings and in my tanks. As much as I may not LIKE doing it, it is the natural cycle of life. And it also keeps me from being swamped with a bunch of fish that I don't enjoy. Sometimes, if a color cull survives being a feeder until almost adulthood, I keep them, because "survival of the fittest". lol


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Chibreney, the American Dairy Goat association does a "Native on Appearance" registration. If your goat looks like a Nubian, it can be registered as a Nubian, grade, but Nubian nonetheless. It goes for every breed that they sanction.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> How many of those babies from those spawns SHOULD be bred though? I could see pedigrees being handy with show fish, but with your average "run of the mill" fish that aren't up to code, no. It's unnecessary.
> 
> EX: I know show rabbit breeders. They keep pedigrees for the over 200 rabbits that they produce in a year (I know that doesn't compare to 200 babies in a betta "litter", but bear with me), with exception to their "culls". Some go to freezer camp, some are sold as pets (which is what 90% of what my rabbits are).
> 
> ...


Wow, you quoted my mind processes. Its how I feel about humanity sometimes. Breeding deformed ANYTHING is horrible for the genepool. Yet...it is still a human judgment...considering that we are breeding traits that we find symmetrical and pleasing to our eye. Some species of fish or other critters are MEANT to look ugly... some are not...

Makes me wonder... how did a perssian cat come about? Or the Sphynx? Or a pug? Some of these features arent practical, or natural... And it is also how I feel about people trying to breed "tritails" on fish or extreme feathertails.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

The reason for a pedigree is so you know that the grandparents of your dog were a Labrador, not just a random yellow dog that looks like it could possibly be a Labrador. 

Same with how every fluffy cat in a shelter suddenly becomes a Maine ****, or one that meows a lot must be part Siamese. 

I have never had to cull any of my fry. Oddly enough those that aren't culled naturally early on seem to grow up free of deformities. I had a couple of bent spines in a recent batch of fry I thought I would have to cull and now I can't even pick them out of the bunch.

Wonder if because a lot of my fry are in with their parents for a week or so before I take them out, the weaker ones die off because I don't supplementary feed and so they can't compete with their stronger siblings.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> Chibreney, the American Dairy Goat association does a "Native on Appearance" registration. If your goat looks like a Nubian, it can be registered as a Nubian, grade, but Nubian nonetheless. It goes for every breed that they sanction.


Show goats. Awesome. I know my cousins would show sheep. Dont talk goats to me. They are one of my favorite animals besides Bettas and Cats.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Or the fact that most fancy goldfish have problems with their organs because of their spines, and I've said it before, daschunds have spinal issues from their long bodies.

I literally read a post on another forum the other day, where someone didn't want to fix their cat, because they were afraid of taking away his "reproductive rights". I wanted to slap someone.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> The reason for a pedigree is so you know that the grandparents of your dog were a Labrador, not just a random yellow dog that looks like it could possibly be a Labrador.
> 
> Same with how every fluffy cat in a shelter suddenly becomes a Maine ****, or one that meows a lot must be part Siamese.
> 
> ...


Interesting... Not the pedigree, I know that, and I also know that entering your "maine ****" in a show just because you think its one is silly, and that it needs to fit the regs before you enter it.

But the fact that you havent had to cull... Either due to parents or no supplemental feeding. Possibly waiting to cull until the fish is nearly grown? That sounds more feasible than culling the smallest or a tiny fry that really hasnt had the chance to develop. Separating them to either a roomier container or separate ones for more grow space seems like a better idea all around.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

I used to raise Dairy goats XD

Little, Because you don't do "participation awards", they have to be strong enough to survive. Which is how it should be.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> Or the fact that most fancy goldfish have problems with their organs because of their spines, and I've said it before, daschunds have spinal issues from their long bodies.
> 
> I literally read a post on another forum the other day, where someone didn't want to fix their cat, because they were afraid of taking away his "reproductive rights". I wanted to slap someone.


I dont understand that mentality... We have taken these animals into domestication... which means we are RESPONSIBLE for their well being... Which means we are directly responsible for their right for a long happy life...


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> I used to raise Dairy goats XD
> 
> Little, Because you don't do "participation awards", they have to be strong enough to survive. Which is how it should be.


I nearly was able to get a nanny goat. I love goatsmilk, and the structure of responsibility owning animals that require specific care...

Its why I love raising bettas. Feeding scedules, spawning, water changes... *Le Sigh*


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

ChibreneyDragon said:


> I nearly was able to get a nanny goat. I love goatsmilk, and the structure of responsibility owning animals that require specific care...
> 
> Its why I love raising bettas. Feeding scedules, spawning, water changes... *Le Sigh*


i use to love goat milk dont now couse i cant get any today i give some of my bettas a water change n took some pic's still need to add them to my wall i want to be a better betta fish breader it good to hear how some of u guys care for other pets too i'm 100% fish dogs n cats like them too
i have a marble i got from a friend now it full size but wat i want to know it has some funny looking fins , now if i bread it will the bad fins be pass on to the fry? here wat he look like


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

ok the pic did not get added i try again


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

chardzard said:


> i use to love goat milk dont now couse i cant get any today i give some of my bettas a water change n took some pic's still need to add them to my wall i want to be a better betta fish breader it good to hear how some of u guys care for other pets too i'm 100% fish dogs n cats like them too
> i have a marble i got from a friend now it full size but wat i want to know it has some funny looking fins , now if i bread it will the bad fins be pass on to the fry? here wat he look like


It depends on how bad the deformity... But a lot of times, messed up fins are due to an instance of poor water or stress, and not really due to a genetic defect.

Even missing ventral fins are more cause by too much movement during fry hood, or Ive heard of MW overfeeding...

ANd some fry may have the phenotype... depends on who you pair her with.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I didnt read all of this thread coz I'm lazy haha but I think trying to reduce/eliminate aggression in fighters is a bad idea. If you don't want to deal with aggression don't get a siamese fighter. 
I personally love aggro ones. A fully flared fighter dead set on trying to annihilate his neighbour is my favourite sights. 
It shows them at their finest otherwise they'd all look the same, just droopy tailed fish


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

trilobite said:


> I didnt read all of this thread coz I'm lazy haha but I think trying to reduce/eliminate aggression in fighters is a bad idea. If you don't want to deal with aggression don't get a siamese fighter.
> I personally love aggro ones. A fully flared fighter dead set on trying to annihilate his neighbour is my favourite sights.
> It shows them at their finest otherwise they'd all look the same, just droopy tailed fish


I dont know about others, but I also value the full flare of the Betta. Im more concerned with OVER aggression, Aggression that is above and beyond the norm for these fish. But this is a subjective topic...that is basically up to the interpretation of us humans.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

lol over aggressive bettas.. they are such a pain in the toosh when trying to breed! One of my girls would suck down a male's anal or dorsal fin from tip to body in one gulp and then hang on while he swam all over the tank trying to shake her.

I then will physically remove her from him hoping not to tear the fins and the moment she is released she goes and clamps back onto him.

And she has done this to multiple males. And she has learned to do this immediately after being released from the chimney.

So even though I love their attitudes, sometimes it can be a pain!

That little girl is now in time out waiting on her new home with Dramaqueen lol.

sigh.. silly fish.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Myates said:


> lol over aggressive bettas.. they are such a pain in the toosh when trying to breed! One of my girls would suck down a male's anal or dorsal fin from tip to body in one gulp and then hang on while he swam all over the tank trying to shake her.
> 
> I then will physically remove her from him hoping not to tear the fins and the moment she is released she goes and clamps back onto him.
> 
> ...


I know, right? I never had this problem breeding CT and VTs twelve years ago...so for me, it just freaked me out and made me wonder. I leave the breeding game for 6 years, and come back to an entirely new situation!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree, their behavior have changed quite a bit. Today's bettas are sometimes more challenging to breed than 10yrs ago.

Over aggression, either male or female do get frustrating. But that's part of the fun - they constantly make you think. LOL


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

I think I may do an offshoot on my breeding scheme for aggression vs domestication... Only problem is finding the more docile fish. Makes me wonder if "Idiocracy" has any truth to it. *Shudder*


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## Cephaela (Jan 16, 2013)

I always kind of thought of fish in a similar line as flowers, mostly for show, not really for personality. Like plants you don't want them to devour eachother, in the gardening world, some plants are more aggressive in that they'll outgrow their neighbors and take over. 
However it would be nice to make a thornless rose in the betta world I think?
I don't mind the spunk, but I do dislike how bettas are loners(there's only so much space in one's house for separation haha). 
If mankind genetically engineered a betta with the temperament of a goldfish, would you want it?
I suppose I'd be mostly focusing on, 'at what cost?'


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

IMO, a docile betta isn't a betta. I like the aggression. 

I aim for two things in my breeding. Show quality and health over all. My fish always come out built well (body wise, they're always thick and never scrawny) and are the longest living fish I've ever had. My fish have lasted through multiple bacterial outbreaks I had last year and finally died of old age late last summer - those ones were born in 2010 ^_^ 

So yes I breed to better them yet maintain the beauty and aggression. Not aggressive enough to kill but to be competitive and good breeders.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

Meeko said:


> IMO, a docile betta isn't a betta. I like the aggression.
> 
> I aim for two things in my breeding. Show quality and health over all. My fish always come out built well (body wise, they're always thick and never scrawny) and are the longest living fish I've ever had. My fish have lasted through multiple bacterial outbreaks I had last year and finally died of old age late last summer - those ones were born in 2010 ^_^
> 
> So yes I breed to better them yet maintain the beauty and aggression. Not aggressive enough to kill but to be competitive and good breeders.


i went and check up on bettas again (can never learn enuff ) and i found out they will only kill if they are keep or place in a small space so i give it a try and it true i place 2 males of same size in 30gal tank n they did not fight , now they are like best buds in there they just meet flear a bit and back off but no fighting ,with out they aggression we wont see they true beauty


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Be careful, once they are adjusted they will set up territory and that will start the fighting. Make sure the tank is very heavily planted. 

No, normally they don't fight to the death, but doesn't mean they should be housed together because that still can cause a lot of stress which could sicken or even kill them.

So, I wouldn't say it's true yet until they have been living together for the rest of their life. Things can turn in an instant with these fish


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

that true a few years a go i had 2 large VT females they would fight with each other in the female tank so only 1 could be keep at a time in the girl house with the other girls ,1 was royal blue the other was green n i could only get them bread at the time with 2 very large males i had so i move them from the 20gal to a 30.5gal tank add some plants n rocks to play hide in both got along for a while till i had put them to spawn n return them n the fighting broke out again n the worst part the smaller females started to pick fights too so i add some food the smaller girls stop but the 2 large girls ate n went back at it that when i notice every time i spawn some females would look too picks fights , i'm not to sure about the over aggression thing is true some males show that kind of behaveor n they fry when grow up dont behave like that but who know some 1 may be messing with these fish too in a bad way n if that the case they will kill the love of this hobby ,


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Perhaps they need a cool down time?


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

hmmmm may be or just like some of us any way i want to be the best or 1 of the best at this trade in Barbados ^_^ so i can match u guys fish of fish , i have a few buyers that like my fish so that wat is pushing me even more to be a better betta breeder got my oscar there to clean up the bad ones n so far bettas seem to be his favortie snacks , i dont buy bad fish so i wont sell any bad fish and if i think 1 of my fish can make bad fish it has to go so my next step is learning about bad scales i'm not a pro yet  just a guy with a love for these fish well all other fish too so be ready guys


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Herm, Im actually studing the genetics of what makes "bad fish" and if in our quest to eliminate undesirable traits... we are causing OTHER unforseen issues. My main issue is show breeders saying you can ONLY get show quality fish from other show quality fish...which just isnt TRUE.


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

Plenty of breeders don't say that. Please don't generalize. 

Most breeders WILL, however, advise you to start a show line with show quality fish, simply because the genetics of the fish being used are known and documented. You'll get fewer culls, and you'll arrive at your goal in fewer generations. It saves a lot of time and money, as getting the same quality fish out of a petco pair could take an extra 3 generations.

As to some of the ideas brought up in this thread:
It is important to understand that fish are different creatures than humans, cats, dogs, etc. Inbreeding CAN be done in fish for a generation or two without genetic deformity, whereas you are likely to see genetic problems in humans within a single generation. Responsible breeders DO bring in outcrosses and don't just inbreed forever.. 

It was just starting to sound silly, all this comparison of apples to oranges.  

Will go back to lurking now.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

lol ^


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

ChibreneyDragon said:


> Herm, Im actually studing the genetics of what makes "bad fish" and if in our quest to eliminate undesirable traits... we are causing OTHER unforseen issues.


Well, isn't that always the case? Take humans, for example. People may choose a mate because he/she displays 'desirable' traits. But even so, the kids may end up with 'unexpected' characteristics. 



> My main issue is show breeders saying you can ONLY get show quality fish from other show quality fish...which just isnt TRUE.


No, it's not true. But it is probably the 'fastest' way. If you start with two show-quality parents, then you probably could produce show-quality offspring in the next generation.... But if you start with two 'unknown' fish, then it would probably take longer, and the breeder would have a bigger challenge, in terms of knowing which offspring to breed in future generations, etc.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

so for guys like me who soake up as much info as i can get,have learn a few trick too in the pass 2years it true that from show u get show quilty way much faster but unknow fish can jump u too like some of wat i have got i may have a new betta line comein in the near feature wat i like about bettas too is u can unlock wat geno they r carring if u can get the same pair to spawn a few times but u guys all ready know that^_^ i cull some of my DTs to day still have a few more to weed out


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

The main point I am focusing on is not inbreeding, but show bred to show. It still lessens the genepool considerably. And even though humans and dogs arent capable of the same inbreeding... they also dont breed as QUICKLY as these fish.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Dogs are inbred all the time.. usually the same amount of times as these fish.


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

The quickness of a fish's breeding ability is irrelevant. Inbreeding is done for a set amount of generations, usually three or less, and then an outcross is brought in. Speed has nothing to do with it.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Myates said:


> Dogs are inbred all the time.. usually the same amount of times as these fish.


I know this... and many "purebred" dogs have some gnarly physical ailments due to the small genepool. But no... It is actually mathematically impossible for dogs to be inbred as much as fish in the amount of time given... Although it has taken hundreds of years for dogs to develop these issues, bettas spawn hundreds, and can spawn every couple of months, and spawn as soon as or sooner than three months old... Dogs have a long gestation period, and are not recommended to breed until AFTER their first heat.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

so if i want to go more show fish it would be best to try n get stock from a well know show breeder, some fish have a shorter life span than some other fish n even dogs n we all ready know this , i like wat u have beening saying it has given me some "food for though" n i know it wont be eazy to be a breeder n try to do show couse show breeders only keep a few fish the best of the stock while a breeder for pet shop keep all most all of the stock, ^_^ some one told me earlyer to sell some for pennys(HMDT breeding) ^_^ my brain have been working much faster now so who going to be for show n who goin to be for store stock haha i think i have to much fish i want to do show with but that great for pet store stock, so wat r we goin to do , i'm a true breeder i dont mind the hard work at all hey i'll take short cuts too (from show breeder stock) if i can get it too


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I still don't think fish even have genetic problems like dogs do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

? Im assuming you are talking to someone else... If you want show fish quick, ya...show breeders are good for that, but my entire thesis is on how too many people practice this... without doing the hard work for breeding from a larger variety stock to achieve their own unique strain, that the genepool for show bettas will shrink until they are incredibly difficult to breed due to genetic quirks, like over aggression, egg eating, or possibly severe weakness to disease.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I still don't think fish even have genetic problems like dogs do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anything with genes has the capability of having "genetic problems". We all have a double helix..and genetic code that matches up repeatedly for say... Excessive Branching, could ALSO have "Bit the heck out of fins" tagged in.

OH, on a side note, look up epigenetics, that stuff is FASCINATING...although not particularly related to fish...


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Is egg eating a genetic issue?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

I dont know for sure, I am actually researching this... and even then... wouldnt be able to say its FACT without actually decoding the genes... I can only base it on my breeding...which is hard ... since I have to stay throughout spawning, and watch to see if there is egg eating, and save most of the eggs for artificial hatching... blegh.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

All I know is that egg eating was not as prevalent as it was ten years ago...but this could simply be the spread of popularity.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I heard artificially hatched eggs are more likely to become egg eating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Really? I dont see how that is scientifically possible, unless bettas are capable of being mentally traumatized by not having a father... Which I find highly unlikely.


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

LoL. DADDY DIDNT LOVE ME!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Just stuff I've read on the forum. Psychological trauma clearly! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

Breeding behavior is all instinct, so it makes sense that this would be passed down.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

i have hare all kind of stuff as too y some betta males eat eggs 1 think i know for sure is once they start to eat eggs they dont stop no matter wat i have try , 1 other thing i see from time to time is 1 male spawn very well no major damage to the female if any at all then u try to spawn him again in about 4-5 weeks n he try to kill the female, wat i find is some of them become over aggressive after they first spawn


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

I've not noticed my males becoming more aggressive, though I've only bred three of my males more than once. 

I will say though that the egg eating is one of two things:

First, it is common for first-timers to eat their eggs and then never do it again. Why? Because they don't know exactly what they are doing when they embrace the first time, and if they don't get it just right, the eggs will not be fertile. Males will eat their infertile eggs. That is why you see males eat some eggs but not all of them in a viable spawn. They eat the ones that aren't going to hatch. 

Then, of course, there are your regular eggs eaters or baby eaters, who eat their eggs spawn after spawn. I have one such male I am dealing with who has eaten his first two clutches of eggs. I'm going to give him one more chance, just in case the eggs were not fertile, but if he munches again, he is banned from the ladies. Permanently!


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

egg n fry eaters come 1 in every 20-30 males i have try but if i have a egg-eater i really like bad i use to try to get them to spawn on weekends when i'm off so i can remove them the same time ,but most of the time 1 try is all it take n he be sold as a show fish to any 1 who like it n i warn them of this too, i have to try some more frist time males again to see if they be eaters or fathers weekend comeing up


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

ChibreneyDragon said:


> All I know is that egg eating was not as prevalent as it was ten years ago...but this could simply be the spread of popularity.


If could be difficult to show whether egg eating has a genetic factor. There are so many other variables going on at the same time.... For example:

What about breeding techniques? If they've changed, this could affect egg eating. What about the effects of reducing stress levels? (I'd think that less stress = less egg eating.)

What about environmental conditions? Even the water itself could be a factor. (Harder, softer, pH, , etc.)


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

some more good points to look into, had 1 fry eater but he was stolen , i just remember back in 2002 when i was trick by 1 of my cusins to keep his bettas yea i did not know any thing about them n though the only thing they did was fight n kill any fish they were keep with yup back then they had a very bad rep n it was so untrue too , my frist egg-eater was a steel blue KCT he was very dark steel with a black head n no red at on on any of this fins , i think spocking them was main couse for egg eating why i say that couse geting bad info back then was my problem, 1 thing i still see some of the other local guys doing is breeding in dirty water , for me if my males dont spawn in the first 4 days i change the water n him sometimes too, had only 2 egg eaters last year 1 was from 1 of my cousin the other was a red dragon scale (pet store)


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## shawnee (Jan 23, 2013)

I hope that some day most breeders will be like this my goal is for bueaty and yet happy healthy fish but if you ever walk in to a petsmart you can see how most people dont give 2 S***s about these fish i wish they would i supplu most of the local shops in my area with fish that wont die in 5 munites of being bought the other day i went into pet smart to buy some bacisc filters and stuff i over heard a lady saking why the fish cant live in the cup that it comes in..... pitifull


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

shawnee said:


> I hope that some day most breeders will be like this my goal is for bueaty and yet happy healthy fish but if you ever walk in to a petsmart you can see how most people dont give 2 S***s about these fish i wish they would i supplu most of the local shops in my area with fish that wont die in 5 munites of being bought the other day i went into pet smart to buy some bacisc filters and stuff i over heard a lady saking why the fish cant live in the cup that it comes in..... pitifull


 lol did u tell her any thing? there a pet smart here too they have 2 outlets and the stalf dont care abut the health of the fish they use to have a guy working there who use to take care of the fish but they got rid of him, but i guest if they get someone who know about fish to work there it means you wont be running back so fast


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

I walked into walmart last night to pick up some API ammonia tester... I saw a CT and a VT in THE SAME CUP. And the service member was STANDING RIGHT THERE. He was with a customer. 

I actually flipped out and found a cup and proper lid and put the beat up CT in a separate cup while the walmart guy and customer watched me with open mouths....

I was so pissed...cause I was pretty sure they were friends and had done it on PURPOSE!

*shrieks*


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> If could be difficult to show whether egg eating has a genetic factor. There are so many other variables going on at the same time.... For example:
> 
> What about breeding techniques? If they've changed, this could affect egg eating. What about the effects of reducing stress levels? (I'd think that less stress = less egg eating.)
> 
> What about environmental conditions? Even the water itself could be a factor. (Harder, softer, pH, , etc.)


This is not scientific, just my experience so we can compare notes.

I never had a problem with egg eaters until I lost my line. My current bettas are newly bought or fry from them and most of them are egg eaters. Spawn - artificial hatch is a standard means of reproduction nowadays.

I've notice that too young males are often egg eaters. If they're not "psychotic" they may change if respawned at a much later age (over 1 month rest). This works better if the spawning tank environment differs to his solitary tank (planted - bare). Water and stress, doesn't seem to influence them - clean new water or old aged water, IAL or none, left alone until fry are free swimming or watched constantly, etc.

The psychotic ones will never change regardless of method, environment, or stress. But there is still hope for his fry - IME if I hand feed them during their first few days to a week (wriggle finger on the water surface to "call" fry, then feed) some may become good daddies. If they're left to fend for themselves, they will be like their daddy. In turn fry from good daddies may later become good daddies. But most will be like grand dad.

In short, I do believe that fry "learn" to become good daddies, although heredity plays a big role too and is often a bigger determinant.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

So do you think egg eaters are really a problem created by the males breeder? Perhaps it was something they did to stunt the males learning curb on how he would take care of his future offspring? In other words egg eating though it could exist on some genetic level could be nurture vs nature.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

indjo said:


> This is not scientific, just my experience so we can compare notes.
> 
> I never had a problem with egg eaters until I lost my line. My current bettas are newly bought or fry from them and most of them are egg eaters. Spawn - artificial hatch is a standard means of reproduction nowadays.
> 
> ...


so from wat you have seen so far it may be a pass down mmmmmm that a very thin line some of us do have a similer behavor but just like i said in a earlyer post and you said it too "egg-eaters "dont change , my frist egg-eater was a steel blue king CT but to be honest i cant remember if any if the fry i ever save turn out like that not sure well i was a noob breeder at that time i use to put all my spawns in 1 grow tank not grow out , wish i had met you guys about 10 years ago, right 1 of my friends have a egg-eater n i know he dont feed his bettas some as long 3 days yea but some fish keepers here dont go online and get any info on any fish , i'll ask him for 1 of the egg-eaters and do a test and keep u guys posted on the out come later this year


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

I fall more toward the "nature" side of the argument. Though I do think that fish are definitely capable of learning simple behaviors, I think they mainly behave out of instinct, especially concerning things that they have never done before (spawning). 

Also, I don't think anyone particularly likes dealing with egg eaters, so I don't believe that this problem, if it is indeed genetic, was ever intended. If it is genetic, it results from breeding too many egg-eaters and passing down bad parenting instincts.

There are many other factors that also go into egg-eating however. Some have said that chronic tail-biters seem to eat their eggs more often. Since tail-biting is often due to stress, we can then assume that fish that are more naturally nervous will bite their tails and perhaps act out in other ways, such as eating their eggs. 

Another thing, too, is that when spawning their bettas, people peek in every hour or even less and give the fish no privacy to do their thing. Not only can this delay the actual embrace between the pair, as the interference creates a huge distraction, but it can also affect the male after the actual spawn process.. This constant interference can trigger stress in a new dad who is trying to organize a clutch of eggs in his nest. When I spawn my fish, I cover all sides of the spawn tank, so that they can't see me. I peek over the top of the tank to monitor the activity of the male and female. I check for eggs only once per day unless I know I am dealing with extremely aggressive fish (where the other could be in danger if left in too long). 

It's always good to know your fish before you breed it.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

the peek into the tank thing is a yes n know some fish dont mind u at all n some will stop till u move for me i only know my fish really know them after they do they first spawn the only blocking out i do is the side to stop them from seeing each other , wat i do is set up all frist timer 2 days before the female come to the tank so they see me all the time 1 other thing i add to my spawning tank is live stargrass it much softer that hornworth did i spell that right(foxtail) it work for the female n the fry by do ing so they dont get spoke by me checking on them


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

inareverie85 said:


> Also, I don't think anyone particularly likes dealing with egg eaters, so I don't believe that this problem, if it is indeed genetic, was ever intended. If it is genetic, it results from breeding too many egg-eaters and passing down bad parenting instincts.
> 
> There are many other factors that also go into egg-eating however. Some have said that chronic tail-biters seem to eat their eggs more often. Since tail-biting is often due to stress, we can then assume that fish that are more naturally nervous will bite their tails and perhaps act out in other ways, such as eating their eggs.


The reason I am researching this, is because it has been proven that detrimental habits and weaknesses can be carried along with positive, highly desirable traits. The coding of DNA becomes a repeater to strengthen certain traits as we continuously breed for specified colors or fin types, and unfortunately, the bad issues follow.


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

i just remember something i read in 1 of the breeding now if the females are best at passing on the the gene for fins and so on then wont she all so pass on the most bad traits too we keep looking at the male when he eat the eggs but if all of wat ur saying is so then any females that are offsprin of a egg eater would be a more risk than a male would if all of this is true but for right now i want to breed some nice sexxy fish that in a year or 2 i can sell some overseas


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't think egg eating nor tail biting were ever intended, not in the beginning anyway. I believe it was a "side effect" from excessive inbreeding (or small gene pool, so to speak) and mass production - as CD implied. But I have no idea how either influence behavior though. I do believe a few show breeders do prefer if their lines were hard to breed. Thus not just anyone can reproduce them.

IMO egg eating behavior is more influenced by the male. Females from egg eating dads bred with unrelated good daddies produce good daddies. At least I've never got egg eating offspring from such pairing. This is why I believe that they do learn parental behavior (I often leave male with fry for at least 1 month, sometimes longer). 

I don't think peeking causes egg eating. Half of my breeding tubs/tank are black tubs. Imagine how dark it would be if it were totally covered during the whole breeding process. The psychotic males will still eat his eggs/fry. Imagine a 1g regular glass tank. A good dad wouldn't mind my moving plants around with a chopstick/siphon looking for wastes (I use old aged water/tank for breeding).


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

yea the lest time my males spend in tank is 2 weeks a pet store owner that breeds bettas all so told me he keep a breeding pair in a large tank that hold over 200 gal of water n let them spawn 2-4 times and then he move them to an other tank same size


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

i think that type of breeding maybe is wat makeing egg eaters


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