# Helpppppp!



## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

So, this weekend I'm going to my aunt's house to set up her tank. My dad has already cleaned it, rinsed the gravel, and put water into it, and started the filter. I think its either a 26 gallon or 33 gallon flatback hex, probably SeaClear. Unfortunately no dechlorinator yet, I'm going to PetSmart with him when I get there to buy a bucket, siphon, the water treatment, live plants, decor, and probably fish.

Probably.

Here's my problem. The tank isn't cycled. And in order to cycle it fishless I'd have to rely on my aunt to cater to the tank. So, I was thinking about just adding 6 zebra danios to the tank and teaching my aunt how to do the water changes every couple days, and tell her to take water samples to PetSmart to have it tested once a week. I don't like fish-in cycling without seeding, its dangerous for the fish. :/

Well, I would have had to deal with it. I began researching zebra danios. They lay eggs and then they hatch and you got tons of babies. No good. I can't have fish breeding, my aunt would go insane. So, I was thinking mollies. Livebearers, evne worst. Platys? Ugh! The same! So I was thinking only betta females. That would be one farking huge sorority. My heart swells at the idea.

But the tank isn't cycled. Bettas don't do well in uncycled tanks. >< Do they? Could they handle a cycle if partial water changes are carried out every other day whilst cycling? I'm at a loss as to what to do. I was thinking about taking my bottle of Dr. Tim's and adding it to her tank along with betta females, reducing the fear of deadly ammonia and nitrites, or even adding colonize. I have no filter media that could go in her tank it seed it. I'm at a loss as to what to do.

Any suggestions anyone? Ways to keep fish from not breeding? Cycling fish-in with betta females?

Edit: Here is the tank.


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## carpenter547 (Sep 18, 2010)

*the price you pay*

:roll: remember these are fish bred to be killers you want agressive fish this is the price you pay only one male can live in all 30 gallons or a sorority of less attractive females but hey the males look pretty when they flare in that 30 right?


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## dipsydoodlenoodle (Mar 3, 2010)

IF danios breed chances are they'll eat all the eggs as they just fall to the floor and the danios will pick at the gravel for them. 

Male guppies might be an idea?


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

Male Guppies would be the way to go, But their not going to handle a cycle very well,
Sororities I would say not, Especially to someone unfamiliar with them,

As for danio's unless you got alot of plants densely planted you'll not get any young.
Even with densely planting you'd be lucky to get a couple survive.


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## kaythenewbie (Aug 23, 2010)

Have you considered getting a bacteria seeder (I think that's what they are called)? Someone on this forum recommended Tetra Safe Start for my aquarium. It cost more than other brands, but well worth it. I had safe ammonia and nitrite levels in a week. Keep in mind that I was doing a fishless cycle with pure ammonia and plants, but it would probably work with a fish in cycle too and help to keep your ammonia in check to cycle safer and faster.

As for the danios, even if they bred, I'm doubtful you will see any surviving young. The eggs would get eaten before you even got fry.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

carpenter547 - Learn to read dude, I said betta females, not betta males. I'm very well experienced enough not to put a male betta with other males, or even in a community setting. And females are just as beautiful a males.

Chicklet - I plan on planting the tank up pretty well but not immediately. I love mollies and platys but they breed more than danios do. >.< So cycling with danios would be okay? I was going to add about 6 danios but down the road would they be compatible with a sorority? It's a pretty big tank, but at most I would only add about 6 females and leave room for cory cats or something of the sort.

So danios would be OK to use in the tank and I wouldn't end up with tons of babies?


EDIT: I was thinking about adding my bottle of Dr. Tim's to her tank because it IS a bacteria colony in a bottle.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

Personally, I'd do the fishless method with a piece of shrimp. I cycled a tank while I was on vacation by simply using a piece of cocktail shrimp in a tea bag for ammonia and seeding the tank with bacteria from another fish tank of mine. It's a completely hands off process that will take care of itself if you seed the tank properly. It would be much easier on your aunt to do it this way and it would be much safer for the fish. When I came from from my week long vacation my nitrites were low and nitrates were high--it was only a couple more days until the process was totally done and I didn't have to do -anything- but drop in the shrimp and seed the tank. This would be the most practical option. You'll probably want to use more raw shrimp for a tank that size--I used half of a large gulf shrimp for a 10G, so I suppose you'll have to use two large shrimp or three-four cocktail sized shrimp for a tank that size.

After that, danios would be a good start. If you don't want to deal with babies, I recommend some dwarf cichlids to take care of the problem. German Blue Rams are absolutely beautiful, your aunt won't have the responsibility of constantly doing head-counts on your females and isolating them when necessary. Sororities are very involved and it's difficult to put that burden onto someone else. Rams are very voracious predators that will eat fry. They have wonderful personalities--anyone that appreciates a betta will appreciate a GBR.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Can dwarf cichlids be placed with danios, mollies, and platys? I wonder if they would get too fat/bloated from eating fry. lol

I would think that a sorority would be simple once you get it established, but then again, you always have to take a head count on those females to make sure none are bloodied up, bruised, picked on, etc.

Hmm. Shrimp. How long was your vacation? I'll probably get shrimp, something like Colonize by Seachem, and put it in panty hose. lol


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

It was over a week--I seeded the filter heavily with media from a mature tank and added Seachem Stability before I left. It was almost done when I came back--easy peasy. 

Danios don't spawn as readily as live bearers do--I would opt for those. If you get Danio rerio, (zebra danios) you have a lot of color options to choose from. A friend of mine mixed golden longfin zebras with regular zebras, longfin zebras, and leopard danios. They are all the same species, Danio rerio, so they will all school together and socialize with one another while still giving you the visual effect of a variety of colors and patterns. They get along just fine with the rams, which are stunningly colored show-stoppers anyway.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Oh wow. I think I might have to do that then. Mixed danios and the german blue rams. Excellent! <3


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## carpenter547 (Sep 18, 2010)

*getting tired of being told to read*



Ajones108 said:


> carpenter547 - Learn to read dude, I said betta females, not betta males. I'm very well experienced enough not to put a male betta with other males, or even in a community setting. And females are just as beautiful a males.
> 
> i never said you were putting males with males. mearly remarking about your post that you liked the agressivness of the bettas. even the females are too much for a novice fish keeper. which you indicated your relation was. so my comment was simple you want to keep bettas agressive so now you are limited to compatable peaceful tank mates for a novice. simply put every one wants tank mates since one betta only *male* per tank is empty and less appealing.
> 
> ...


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## kaythenewbie (Aug 23, 2010)

Perhaps if you hate people using the term "learn to read" you shouldn't use it with others. Use the Golden Rule ;-)


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

@ carpenter - He isn't even talking about the aggressiveness being a problem. He's talking about the problem of finding tank mates that won't breed and overrun his aunt's tank. The two are unrelated.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

vaygirl said:


> @ carpenter - He isn't even talking about the aggressiveness being a problem. He's talking about the problem of finding tank mates that won't breed and overrun his aunt's tank. The two are unrelated.


She* :lol: <3


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## carpenter547 (Sep 18, 2010)

lol there is a difference between RTFM and i don't see how your post ties in to the ops so you need to learn to read.

i am done with this thread *as i don't wanna hijack another thread. if i mis interpreted about the concern for agression i am wrong.

btw chichlids are agressive and a bad combination in most tanks and would not get along with bettas or live bearers. the live bearers *especially the antiagressive type playties* might or could become so stressed that they mis carry or stop breeding.

*i have been called arrogant for not using words that are more politically correct and i won't start now the truth is the truth*

if you want live bearers and don't want a tank over run with them then only buy the females. if you want them to reproduce or repopulate thier numbers either borrow or buy and return or buy and destroy a male for just that purpose. don't buy a predatory agressive fish to put in a tank to prey on unwanted ofspring and to attack the parents. unless your main point of the tank is said agressive predatory fish and the others are just in for fodder.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Destroy a male? Now I know that they are "only just fish" but I find culling very inhumane.

I mentioned to my dad stocking mollies or platys of only one breed but then he said they could change genders? I don't believe him so I'm researching more.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

At this point I would stop feeding the troll. :> 

Rams are pretty peaceful, though, compared to other cichlids until/unless they pair up and then they're quite territorial, but danios are big enough and strong enough swimmers that there shouldn't be any trouble even if you do have a territorial pair. They will definitely go through a shrimp colony and probably eat fry if presented with the opportunity.

They're definitely not hermaphroditic.. you can sex them if you learn about what to look for.


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## carpenter547 (Sep 18, 2010)

lol ok allow me one more post now that i have entered trolldom.

first off the agression statement was directed to the i like agressive bettas on another post logic is "if bettas could be kept with bettas then no need to find new tankmates and deal with whill they work cuz you have a tank full of what you wanna see *no more on it since it is froma different thread*

secondly i love my fish and by destroy i mean use feeder fish as feeders remember most of our beloved fish are fish food themselfs. also i do not recomend or think it is proper to buy a male and then kill it just to do so. i do advocate buying females only for population control and borrowing a male to impregnante. how ever the idea of buying a fish and feeding it to another fish is cruel but buying a highly agressive fish to eat the baby fish produced cuz you can't be bothered to make sure you only buy females is less cruel?


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## kaythenewbie (Aug 23, 2010)

Wow! This thread has taken a turn. . .

Carpenter, I owe you an apology. When I told you to not tell people to learn to read, I assumed you had used it in your post. Now I see that you were quoting Ajones. I'm sorry. I hate it when quotes don't show up in a blue square; it makes me all confused. 

Adastra- A "troll"? Ouch! Is name-calling really necessary?

Could we all please get back on topic? :roll:
So Ajones, I am confused. Are you going to be caring for the fish or is your aunt? I'm assuming that your aunt has very little or no fishkeeping experience. I thought that Blue Rams were pretty difficult fish to care for. They need very specific water conditions. Maybe German Blues are different (I have no idea, I don't know much about cichlids), but you should seriously consider the water conditions needed for the fish.
Danios are great. Really easy to care for and very active in an aquarium. Are you still thinking about making it a sorority of female bettas? If so, some research will need to be done since females can be aggressive toward each other or tankmates. As for the livebearers, I highly doubt they can change genders. More likely they were sexed incorrectly to begin with. I don't know how you tell the difference between male and female livebearers. Guppies are easily sexed, but I'm not sure about mollies or platies. (Sorry that I'm kinda clueless at this, I'm new to fishkeeping.)

Going back to the original question, danios would work great for a fish in cycle. But I think most of us on the forum would recommend using a fishless cycle. The shrimp method Adastra suggested sounds perfect for your situation.

Anyway, I think the most important thing for you to tell us now is who is going to be caring for the fish, have you picked fish yet, and what is your aunt looking for in an aquarium?


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

> I mentioned to my dad stocking mollies or platys of only one breed but then he said they could change genders? I don't believe him so I'm researching more.


Yes they do, Mollies & sword tails I know so as a fact.

First time, Had all girls but two. lost both males.
I got oodles of young from those girls, Then they just stopped having any more young,
Finally I got down closer to take alook, 
I was really surprised to find a bunch of males!
Several even looked neither male nor female, Stuck in the transformation phase.
Anyways I did go on to test this many times, And yes they certainly do change sexes,
I have experienced it with Swordtails and Mollies only, the platies and Guppies I experimented with never changed sexes.
It took anywhere from 1 - 3 months (more so in the 1 month range) with no male present for the sexual transformation to take place.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

I like Adastra's suggested shrimp method. It sounds like the easiest option and therefore the best for your aunt whom I assume (I could be wrong) is new to fish keeping. =]

What kind of fish are you putting in? =] also how's designing the tank going?


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## carpenter547 (Sep 18, 2010)

sorry but mollies can't change sex period they can be told apart by looking at the gymnopodium just watch them if in doubt the male will have larger dorsal fin and will always be mating with the ladies.

what does happen is that mollies get pregnant stay pregnant for up to 4 months give birth to males males survive unnoticed or are not removed before reaching maturity and then knock up a female.

mollies and playties are androgenous until sexual *teehee hee i said sexual* matureity. just like in people how little boys and little girls can be mistaken at a casual glance. any way that is the most likely cause of your experiance.

here is some referances to support my claim:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Freshwater-Aquarium-3216/Sexing-baby-mollies-keeping.htm mollies weren't listed in the list that does and latter a plausible theory as to how rumors and mistakes on sexing fry occur.

http://www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=swordtail swordtail info page lotsa info again rebutts the gender change and shows human error.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/livebearers/male-female-molly-42401/ another one for your perusal.

the reason i gave sources is i have been accused of making up or not having facts in previous debates.

a tank filled with female mollies and playties *playties would be best since mollies are brackish for optimum health* will not breed. buy them for you aunt qt them to make sure no seminal contamination has occured. and put them in the tank. then latter if you decide to breed to replace numbers just introduce a male on loan from a firend for a couple of days and then remove him.


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

I guess all us old experienced fishy folks don't know what we've talking about.

Alot of folks knows Mollies and Swordtails do in fact change sex.
Some of us with as high as 30 yrs experience with these guys 

But your free to think whatever you like.


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## carpenter547 (Sep 18, 2010)

again and for the last time show me proof some where other than a strangers word on the internet that it happens. since you made the statement that goes against the established norm you should provide some proof.

i am not at all attempting to disbelieve your experiance or to imply that you are not good with your fish. heck my father in law is a 45 year veteran of carpentry however he still makes the occasional mistake it happens.

so again i state and this is my last post on this in this thread i promise "show me clinical data on the subject not just *it happened to me cuz i said so* and it will be proven" show it not and it is not proven.

*tips hat*


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## Chicklet (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm not here to argue with you,

What I know is from experience and from others like myself that have actually seen the results of ADULT Fish change sex.,, not written words that just anyone can create and published.

Personally I'd rather get advice from someone who has the experience then someone who sends me of with links.

Just decided to click a few of your posted links,
I'm not talking about young fish here, I'm talking about well established adults that produced young, That changed to Males!

Maybe you should read your links and get a clearer picture.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Here is some background information for everyone.

My aunt will be caring for this fish tank. It's my job to set it up, and teach her how to properly siphon the tank, feed the fish, and administer water conditioner. If the fish get sick, I will be caring for them. I am definitely going to go with the fishless cycle with shrimp as Adastra suggested, but to "seed" the tank with bacteria I will be picking up Tetra Safe Start. I'm also going to pick up a heater to help with bacterial growth, and when I make this drive again next weekend, I'm bringing my testing kit to test the water myself.

Fish won't be going in quite this weekend, since there's a heavy debate on this...

Chicklet, I understand that you are incredibly experienced with your fish keeping and the fish that you keep. 

My aunt is looking for a decorative, easy to maintain tank with lots of colorful fish. A sorority would be too much for her to handle I think, since you have to really watch betta females. She IS new to fish-keeping for the most part, but she has a 1-gallon filtered mini bow on the kitchen counter with 3 tiger barbs in it who seem very healthy. Although, I cleaned the tank the last time I was here because she had an algae bloom so bad that the filter was clogged. But they're alive and kicking even in the small thing.

The fish dictionary I have in my head is really obtained from users here who talk about what they stock in their sororities. I figure, if these breeds get along together with female bettas, they'll get along together without them. I love the colors of platys and mollies but when I learned they were both live-bearers I was sad because my aunt can't just isolate the female/pay attention, etc. My dad said he learned by experience that mollies changed gender and the babies were so bad they got all in the filter and it was just one big mess.

If anyone has any ideas of colorful fish that can school together and get along with other types that are relatively hardy and easy to care for, please say here.  Since this tank is getting cycled fishless, we have a bit more options now. I'd love to put a sorority into this huge tank but... I don't think she could handle it.

But my dad's tank up in Jacksonville... He he... That one might just be a sorority... >.>

carpenter - To be honest, I will be more likely to go with the opinions of those who have more experience in fish keeping, who have proof they are experienced, not just throwing out links to prove a point.

Adastra - You're my unsung hero. I died laughing when you said what you did. *high five*

Wally - It is going to have lots of plants for sure. I love natural-looking tanks. Granted the blue-mix gravel in this tank is anything but natural but plants are definitely on my agenda. When we get to PetSmart on Sunday I'm sure dad will want to go extravagant. Pictures will come here.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Yet another arguement on the forum. "sigh" Just more work for us mods to do, what with editing rude posts and sending out pm's...


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

I started cycling the tank with 3 raw large shrimp and Stabilize yesterday.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

Keep us updated! Leaning toward any livestock in particular?

And by the way--nothing I've read indicated to me that mollies and swordtails could change sex before. I've had guppies, so it did not make sense to me that a species with some sexual dimorphic traits like a modified anal fin would spontaneously change sex. I've never had other livebearers before, so I suppose it wasn't the best thing to just assume. I am curious, though, as to how you discovered that they did this and what triggers it to happen.


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## Posaune (Sep 17, 2010)

Well, I have some experience with zebra danios. The only time they breed is when the water is low (believe me, I had them in both set ups, a low water one with a fiddler crab and they bred non stop, and a fully filled tank where they didn't breed at all). So if the only reason you wouldn't want zebra danios is the breeding, don't worry about it and keep the tank filled. Even if they do breed, the parents will probably end up eating the young (as what happened in mine, the young only lived when the parents ended up dying)

As far as fish changing sex, I though I read somewhere that there are species that can do that when no male is present (though I'm not sure if they can reproduce, I think they just take on the other characteristics of the male). And I know for sure that some invertebrates can do that.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Dad texted me this morning and said that the house REALLY stank from the fish tank so I told him to take the shrimp out and have the water tested today. I told him that depending on the water test results we might do a 75% water change and just use pure ammonia instead of rotting shrimp >_>


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

Wow. It was totally submerged, right? Mine didn't stink at all!


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## kaythenewbie (Aug 23, 2010)

That's too bad about the shrimp. I cycled with pure ammonia and it's not too hard. Have you planted the tank yet? That will make it cycle a lot faster.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Adastra, yes. The only things added to the tank were Prime, Stability, and raw shrimp in a panty hose completely submerged to the bottom of the tank.

kaythenewbie: Yes. See the link in my signature from when I cycled my 5g fishless with pure ammonia.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

For cycling add some Stress Zyme every few days.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

Why add stress zyme when there are no fish in the tank? I've done a perfect cycle fishless with ammonia just recently without extra products than ammonia, bacteria, and Prime...


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