# Is it typical to breed siblings?



## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

I've noticed on AquaBid that a lot of sellers offer "pairs" for sale. These are usually siblings from the same spawn. To me, a pair is two fish I plan to breed. Am I using the term incorrectly?

I know that fish are "inbred" to produce the same traits, but I didn't think this was the norm. Thoughts/comments welcome!


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## Burd (Apr 10, 2011)

I've asked myself this same question. I dunno about the fish but the idea of 'mating' with my brother kinda makes me yak.


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

LOL, but how else will we get more of you two, mwahahahahahaahaahahaha  (j/k, that's gross haha)


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## Burd (Apr 10, 2011)

I threw up a lil. :3


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

yes if you're line breeding it's pretty typical to breed siblings.


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

It doesn't cause a lot of adverse effects like decreased disease resistance or something? (Or 3 eyes? J/k )

I also heard that you can breed the children to the parents. Is that pretty normal in line breeding too?


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

It's a pretty common practice but I think it's only done for a few generstions.


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## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

It tends to lead to neurotic behavior...yeah :c Some srs glass surfing and biting. Idk genetically, though, but its usually done to strengthen the line. Breed an unlce to his sister back to that spawn's daughter blah blah, it gets crazy.


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

LOL!!!! I have one who is a total spaz...wonder if he's a little back woods...


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## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

Probably!


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

I think you can go as far as 8 generations


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Inbreeding is said to be safe for 6 generations (siblings). But I wouldn't go that far. I prefer to breed cousins, daughter to father, son to mother, then 2nd cousins and uncles etc. I would only breed siblings of the same batch if I had no choice and after F4, I introduce new genes/fish.

Inbreeding is done if you have certain recessive traits that you want to make dominant. Eg. HM single tail with long/large dorsals. But the side effect is that you tend to make defective genes dominant as well, specially if done for too many generations. It is highly advised that you don't inbreed too much - unless you are trying to make certain traits.

Aquabid usually offers "pairs" of siblings. You need to ask for a non sibling if you don't want to inbreed. But you can breed siblings for 4 generations and theoretically you should have offspring with the same traits (color/patern/form) as F0 (the original parents).


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

Thank you! That is very informative. I don't know if I'll be inbreeding (is it more polite to say linebreeding?) Anytime soon, but good info for later when I become a rich and famous betta breeder (hahahahaha j/k).

I think betta genetics are fascinating! <3


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Who knows? You just might become a rich and famous betta breeder. lol


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

Haha  Would be cool!! I just needa start the actual breeding now, teehee!


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## SashimiBetta (May 7, 2011)

Breeding parents and children are SICK. :3


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Not in the fish world.


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, its really a human thing... I don't think its" sick" They don't know better like we do.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Indjo just said that inbreeding siblings was safe up to 6 generations.


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

Yup..even with people the defects don't start showing up till later down the line...they inbred royalty forever to keep the blood pure.... also if you believe in adam and eve...you have to assume some inbreeding went on in the beginning (meaning we're all inbred, teehee).

I'm not worried about it, other than the genetic defects that can and will arise from inbreeding. Fish don't have the same moral standards as people  LOL


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## Twilight Storm (Apr 14, 2011)

indjo said:


> Inbreeding is said to be safe for 6 generations (siblings). But I wouldn't go that far. I prefer to breed cousins, daughter to father, son to mother, then 2nd cousins and uncles etc. I would only breed siblings of the same batch if I had no choice and after F4, I introduce new genes/fish.
> 
> Inbreeding is done if you have certain recessive traits that you want to make dominant. Eg. HM single tail with long/large dorsals. But the side effect is that you tend to make defective genes dominant as well, specially if done for too many generations. It is highly advised that you don't inbreed too much - unless you are trying to make certain traits.
> 
> Aquabid usually offers "pairs" of siblings. You need to ask for a non sibling if you don't want to inbreed. But you can breed siblings for 4 generations and theoretically you should have offspring with the same traits (color/patern/form) as F0 (the original parents).


And also to Cajun (but I don't know how to quote two people.)

Good answers. (From what I have gathered so far in arming myself with knowledge so I can begin breeding Bettas within the next year.)

The IBC tries to stress starting out with a quality pair of fish is really important, as do many other breeders, and clubs internationally. All these fish have been line bred, and inbred, to some point. (Brother to sister, father to daughter, and any combination in between like indjo said above.) 

In the research I have been doing, a brother/sister pair of fish is a good way to start your breeding program if you want to more closely duplicate the traits of the parent fish. Line breeding sets good and bad traits into your stock. When you outcross to another fish, from another line, you introduce all the traits from that line into your own. Most likely the other line of fish has their good and bad traits well set into their stock because that person was working on setting in traits they were working on. 
You then take the offspring of this union and line breed to hopefully set whatever trait you wanted to improve, and remove newly introduced bad traits.
Inbreeding to some point is needed, as is careful outcrossing. Having a clear vision of what you are wanting to achieve in your fish, and to stay focused on that goal, is really important.

You have to be careful selecting fish to outcross to because in some cases you can introduce traits you don't want into your line and it may take years to get the undesired traits out again. 

For example: If you are breeding solid color fish and you introduce marble it will take a lot of generations, to get out of your fish if you introduce it, and don't want it. 
(I could be wrong on the example. I am going from memory off stuff I read, but I think marble is one of the hard-to-get-rid-of traits.) 

In a nutshell it's why everyone says start breeding with quality fish from breeders. If you talk to breeders you can often get some background on the fish you are wanting to purchase.

I hope I'm not way off base here, but as they said it's either safe to breed up to gen 6 or 8. I can't remember if it's the rule of 7's or the rule of 9's.. I can't find info on it anymore, and I didn't seem to have bookmarked it.  But at one of those numbers 7th or 9th generation, you outcross no matter what. If anyone can link the rule to me I would love you so I can bookmark it.

Sorry this was long winded!
Best Wishes


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

Thank you! <3 I am (unfortunately) building my collection of quality males and don't have many quality females ( about 4 are possibly breedable). I am considering getting a sibling female that was offered for one of my males...but we'll see!


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## DormDrax (Dec 1, 2010)

nowzem said:


> Thank you! <3 I am (unfortunately) building my collection of quality males and don't have many quality females ( about 4 are possibly breedable). I am considering getting a sibling female that was offered for one of my males...but we'll see!


If you somehow end up with a 'RT' in the spawn (Rose Tail... Right?) I want first dibs!


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

Inbreeding/incest is really just a cultural taboo. It's the most widespread taboo, but remember that something our culture deems "sick," may not be in another part of the world. I don't think anyone on the board will agree that incest is acceptable in humanity, but remember to be culturally aware with statements.

OK, sorry, there's the anthropologist in me speaking.


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

I agree...  very well put.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

But we're talking about fish. lol


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## nowzem (Apr 14, 2011)

Precisely why it isn't "sick."


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## Arashi Takamine (Mar 3, 2011)

Personally if I was breeding I would choose two different unrelated fish. For one: I would go for let's say...Crowntail female to veiltail male or veiltail female to one of my crowntails. (I don't care if their petstore fish. They are definietly Aquabid quality colors. Makes me wonder though if Akira was an inbred spawn cause he is a tail biter.) That would most likely produce HM's wouldn't it? I heard breeding HM's and CT's create a lot of veiltails and rarely create more CT's or HM's. I'm probably not going to breed unless I can have everything prepared (I'd probably set up the grow out tank to also be the spawing tank to prevent stress to the fry.) Which means unless I suddenly win the lottery I'll never consider it.

But yeah it seems that inbreeding to a certian point in the species may cause some behavioral and immunity problems. I mean breeders also breed fish to become pets one day. I would rather have fry that have odd but genes I know are strong and give them to people I know would take care of them for little or no profit rather then having betta's I know are beautiful but have problems that would drive their owners up the wall.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

Without linebreeding, bettas would eventually revert to their wild type color and finnage. ;-)


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

Lol I see a lot of people anthropomorphizing their fish.. which is why in turn line breeding sounds bad...


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## kathstew (Feb 23, 2011)

Arashi Takamine said:


> Personally if I was breeding I would choose two different unrelated fish. For one: I would go for let's say...Crowntail female to veiltail male or veiltail female to one of my crowntails. (I don't care if their petstore fish. They are definietly Aquabid quality colors. Makes me wonder though if Akira was an inbred spawn cause he is a tail biter.) That would most likely produce HM's wouldn't it? I heard breeding HM's and CT's create a lot of veiltails and rarely create more CT's or HM's. I'm probably not going to breed unless I can have everything prepared (I'd probably set up the grow out tank to also be the spawing tank to prevent stress to the fry.) Which means unless I suddenly win the lottery I'll never consider it.
> 
> But yeah it seems that inbreeding to a certian point in the species may cause some behavioral and immunity problems. I mean breeders also breed fish to become pets one day. I would rather have fry that have odd but genes I know are strong and give them to people I know would take care of them for little or no profit rather then having betta's I know are beautiful but have problems that would drive their owners up the wall.


I'm pretty sure that VT is a dominant gene, so if you bred anything with a VT you would get VTs....



I can see why linebreeding bettas is a good idea, especially with the remark about them reverting to wild type, but I would always want to be super careful with how many times I was linebreeding them.


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