# Need help diagnosing fin rot/secondary fungus infection!



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Hello everyone and thank you for taking the time to read this post.

My name's Karsten and I am posting on behalf of my girlfriend's betta, Fish. He's very ill. Here's the copy/paste.

Housing 
What size is your tank? 3.5gal
What temperature is your tank? Room temp ~72-80F
Does your tank have a filter? Yes (We're not using it now.)
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? No
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? Bachelor pad

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari Betta Bio-Gold
How often do you feed your betta fish? Once per day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 3.5gal tank, twice weekly 33% but used to be in .5 gal tank with once weekly 100% changes. Let me apologize now, we were both irresponsible betta owners. 

What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Water conditioner

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Fish's dorsal fin has rotted off, seemingly revealing two dorsal fin bones. White fuzzy material seems to be infecting this area. Additionally white patches seem to be eating away at the tips of some of his other fins and even eating a hole in the middle of the fin. One patch we are particularly worried about is at the base of his butt and seems to be threatening to remove his rear fin and strike at the body.

How has your betta fish's behavior changed? His behavior hasn't changed much. He's a really fiesty fish and still energetic and vigorous, regardless of his lack of a dorsal fin. He eats voraciously and completes all his meals. I've been feeding him a little extra, trying to supply him with some extra building materials to rebuild his fins and fight the microbes.

When did you start noticing the symptoms? The tail patches seem to have been there for quite some time, not sure if he had them when we got him from the pet store. Dorsal fin detached three weeks ago, girlfriend tells me.

Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? After noticing his issues, I began flexing google muscles. We upgraded his tank. Then we started using bettafix. Naturally, this was at the suggestion of the pet store employee, who I doubt truly cared. We used bettafix for about two weeks with no noticeable change. I was worried that he was getting worse, so we picked up some E. erythomyocin by API. Unprepared, again, I find now that this medicine is not effective for gram-negative fin rot. We've done the initial two doses of erythromycin.

Does your fish have any history of being ill? Uh, possibly. We've let whatever he has now go on too long.

How old is your fish (approximately)? Fish just celebrated his third birthday on the 31st of July.



I'm attaching some pictures that will hopefully illustrate what's going on here. I'm finished blindly buying medicines to try and help poor fish and will turn this diagnosis over the the experts. Please help us! We're both committed to giving him a healthy, comfortable life.


----------



## Abby (Jan 13, 2011)

OH my goodness! i dont know but the poor boy!


----------



## Mindibun (Jul 28, 2011)

That looks like advanced fin rot and I think I see some on his tail, too. Bettafix, I'm coming to find out with my own betta, does little to nothing. Adding aquarium salt can help a lot. Read the sticky if you haven't already.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi karstenchu and welcome to the forum.  No need to apologize about anything, you are more than making up for it by seeking help. It's the people who refuse to change their habits that drive us nuts here. People like you and your girlfriend who genuinely want to learn how to care for their fish are most welcome.

First, yup, that looks like a nasty case of finrot brought on by poor water quality. Maracyn-II is the medicine you'll want. It's effective for gram-negative bacteria. If you don't have him in a small QT container, you'll want to get one ready because keeping him in something small, like his old .5 gallon tank if you have it still, will make this easier because you need to do daily water changes.

The best way to treat with Maracyn-II is to get a big jug and mix 5 cups of dechlorinated water with the recommended dosage of Maracyn-II. Shake it well, then use 1/2 cup of this mixture per gallon of his QT container (so, uh, if he's in his .5g tank, whatever half of half a cup is; sorry, I really stink at math). Save the rest of the mixture, you'll need it. For the duration of his treatment, do daily water changes and redose the medicine. The premixed meds should be good for about two days, then you'll need to mix more up. Also try and keep him as warm as possible. Unless you live in a tropical area where the ambient temp never drops below 80 degrees, you'll want to pick up a heater. If you can get the temp of his container up to about 84 degrees, that would be great. Also, Maracyn-II can be a little light sensitive so keeping his tank dim will help him. 

He's a very handsome fellow. I should mention that his age may play a part in his ability to fight off this infection. 3 years old is very old for a betta; their average lifespan is about 1-3 years so your guy is a senior citizen. Since he's still eating, I have great hope he'll shake it off. One thing you can do to help is feed him a high protein diet. If you can, get frozen bloodworms and feed those to him. Break his meals up into at least two a day and feed him a few small bloodworms for one meal and 1-2 pellets for his other.

I hope this helps your guy perk up. Keep us posted.


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks for the advice! Is there a way to tell if he needs a medication to treat gram negative or gram positive bacteria? Also should we do the whole treatment with the medication we have now and then try the Maracyn-II. Is it dangerous to switch meds on him all of a sudden?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

There isn't any real way to tell if most bacterial infections (especially internal infections) are gram negative or gram positive without a test. However, fin rot is most definitely caused by a gram negative rod bacteria, aeromonas or pseudaeromonas.

Are you still treating him with erythromycin or is it the Bettafix? If it's Bettafix, I recommend stopping immediately, as it contains an ingredient - tea tree oil - that could harm the labyrinth organ of a betta. If you want, you can put him in clean water for a night to give him a break from the medicine, then start the Maracyn-II. It shouldn't hurt him to switch suddenly, but it never hurts to be careful.


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

We decided to keep treating him for a full 10 days with the erythromycin. So far it has been 6 days. We also added some aquarium salt as that was also suggested to us. His water has been a good temperature 79-80 F. He is still swimming well, still eating and greeting us whenever we approach his tank and is very vigorous. He now has some white on his dorsal fin on the side opposite to the camera it doesn't look cottony it looks more like his blue area near there is turning white. On another forum it said that white is a sign of healing so it is good. If after the 10 days pass and he still isn't really looking any better then we will switch to Maracyn 2. Here is a picture of him from a few minutes ago what do you guys think?


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

I know that new growth of fins starts as a clearish/white. Hopefully that is what you are seeing.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's a little hard to tell. New growth is usually nearly transparent but with a whitish look to it, if that helps. Hopefully it is new growth. If it isn't cottony that is a good sign.


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

So after continuing treatment with erythromycin, his dorsal is looking like this...I honestly can't tell what is going on, whether the rot is continuing, whether the white is a fungus (it doesn't look cottony or like hair, but has a solid look to it), or whether that white stuff is a scab material and it's healing over.

Fish is still quite energetic in his hospital tank. He keeps eating whenever he is fed and some overfeedings have led to some very large poo. That's my boy!

Just kidding, we're feeding him normally now. Our food, we discovered, has expired many months ago. Does Hikari Bio-Gold truly go bad? Could expired food be the cause? We're probably going to pick up some new stuff tomorrow.

Behold Fish in his beautiful glory. In this first one you can see some of his fin bones protruding. They don't seem to be as visible as they were before, however.













Here is another picture of the other side of the dorsal. You can see red here now.











We're thinking about continuing erythromycin (Maracyn) and beginning Maracyn II, using both concurrently. The boxes for the Maracyn II claims that it can be used safely with the other, so I feel like it's worth a shot. Poor fish!

Besides this, we are doing daily full water changes with aquarium salts and conditioners. His temperature is right and we would check other parameters but we can't afford the stupid tests. Any additional advice would be highly appreciated.


----------



## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

I don't have any advice, just good luck and good for you for educating yourself and trying! I agree with Sakura - we all have made or make mistakes, even "veteran" betta owners can have serious and very frustrating trouble! Good luck to you guys and your boy there, keep us updated! Once I found this forum I never left and have learned so much.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Weeeell, fish food can go stale but I don't really think it can go bad per se since it's all dry ingredients. I don't think it can cause them to get sick. It just means he wasn't getting quite as nutritious a diet for a while.

But wow, his dorsal is pretty bad. Definitely do Maracyn I and II concurrently, his fin rot needs a big wallop to put a stop to it before it goes any further towards his body. You are doing great with him, I admire your dedication.


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Erythromycin claims that we should not use it for more than 10 days, but we're worried about stopping treatment too early. Is there any problem with continuing past the 10 days?

Also, should we just follow the dosing instructions for both medications while using them concurrently?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I believe DarkMoon17 has said it's okay to continue treatment past 10 days but to be on the safe side, I would PM her. I could be remembering wrong. How long has he been in the aquarium salt? Now that I do know should be stopped after 10 days because it can damage the kidneys. 

I believe you can follow the instructions for both medications but again, to be on the safe side, I would PM DarkMoon. When it comes to medications, she's the absolute expert. 

I hope the little guy heals up soon. It looks like the rot has really set in. I would like to think that the white means it's scabbing over but I can't be certain. I take it he's still eating which is a good sign. Only very sick or very picky bettas don't eat.


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Yep, he's still a little pig! 

We haven't been using the salt as a medication, just as a normal water conditioner. Thanks for the recommendation, we'll PM DarkMoon.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

That's quite the infection your boy has. API Erythromycin and Maracyn I are the same. They both contain 200mg erythromycin and will do the same thing. So, you can combine Maracyn II with either one... But you may want to try API Triple Sulfa instead of the other meds. I believe it is stronger than Erythromycin. 

Otherwise, I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if I repeat something but during treatment you should lower temp to a constant 76*F and keep him in a dark area or cover his tank with a towel. Do daily 100% water changes. 

Good luck with him and keep us posted!


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks for the response, DarkMoon. 

We have actually already bought the Maracyn II and in a fit of indecision last night, we opened one of the packages, making it unreturnable. Having committed to Maracyn II, we brought up a large 10 gallon tank to use as a hospital tank.

Previously, we were using a series of 1 gallon buckets, but the Maracyn II dosage is 2 packets per 10 gallons. I'm good at fractions, but it just got too hard to cut 1/5th of the packet to put in his little bucket, so I hope this 10gallon tank works. Suffice to say, fish looks a little silly in this massive tank. But do we still have to do 100% changes in this 10gallon tank?

We'll try a full treatment course of Maracyn II and if it doesn't work, we'll try Tri-Sulfa. These two are *not* safe to use concurrently, correct? We want to hit this bug. Hard.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Ah, sorry I didn't reply sooner! Definitely finish the full course of treatment, it's very important to do so. You don't need to do a full 100% water change with the 10 gal... You should try to do at least a 25% per day or something like that then replace the correct dose of medication. If you can, plop the tablet in 1 cup of water and let it dissolve. Use 1/4 cup to treat every 2.5 gallons. Or dissolve the tablet in 5 cups of water and use 1/2 cup to treat 1 gal. 

I have never used them concurrently so I wouldn't try it. My guess is that they are not safe to use together. If the Maracyn combo is not effective after the full treatment then do a 100% water change and try API Triple Sulfa. Hopefully you won't have to do that but Triple Sulfa would be a good follow up.


----------



## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

When you are doing the full water changes, no reason to check water parameters anyway. I am pretty sure that you are supposed to discontinue using the salt when you use the antibiotics, however. Ten days is the limit on using the salt in any case (it can start causing more problems than it's solving after that). 

Kumi


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Good news! A lot of the white crap seems to be clearing up around Fish's dorsal. The Maracyn II seems to be causing some brown crap to precipitate at the bottom of the tank and the water is a little cloudy. Is this normal? We have a bubbler blowing through an airstone...should we leave it going in his tank? I think someone here said that Maracyn II deoxygenated the water a little bit.

As of today, fish seems to be lying on his side a little bit, though. He kind of tilts to one side when he sits on the ground although he isn't flat on his side. Honestly, right now he looks a little drunk. Is this a problem or a sign of low water oxygen?


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Bettas can breath air from the surface, so low water oxygen wouldn't be your concern. Sorry I couldn't help figure out what it might be.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If the tank starts to get dirty, you'll probably want to clean the gunk out that's falling off of him. You'll need to replace the medicine you remove though. How are you adding the medicine? Is it in packets? Also, I believe DarkMoon left some instructions on pg2 about dividing meds and replacing them during water changes. 

Is the laying on his side thing new behavior that he just started? Has his behavior changed any otherwise, like does he eat or not eat? Can he breathe all right? And does he look bloated at all? Silverfang is right, since they can breathe air, low oxygen in the water shouldn't be a concern. You can keep the airstone on to stir the water, though, it won't hurt anything as long as it's not bothering him.


----------



## aurasoulful (Aug 19, 2011)

Good luck, I hope the little guy get's well soon <3


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

The laying on his side was a new thing to introducing the Maracyn II. We've been replacing the medicine we've been removing, adding in the proper amount of packet.

He seems to be able to breathe alright. Bloated he does not look - he's very slender and masculine. My girlfriend thinks the lying on his side had to do with him getting knocked around by the water she had just added in.

He can't seem to be able to see his food at the top of the tank, however....we've been needing to scoop him up in a cup, put the food in there and then he'll eat. He eats voraciously, like some sort of blue piranha.

He's quite cheerful today and this is the first time we've seen him use his leaf hammock since we moved him from his mansion tank into his hospital tank. We've been keeping a lid over his tank and a dark blanket thrown over the sides...I hope he doesn't get lonely in the dark all the time!










The Maracyn II seems to be clearing up some of the white crap around the dorsal fin.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm glad he doesn't look bloated and it's more than possible the water change just kinda knocked him senseless a little. I've accidentally done that to my fish too. 

Is it he can't see his food at the top or he can't swim up to it? Usually even if they can't see their food, they rely on their sense of smell. I wonder if the Maracyn is messing with his nose. But I'm glad you found a solution to feeding him. Hopefully when he feels better he'll be able to eat normally again.

How is he doing today?


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Maracyn smells bad so maybe he can't smell his food anymore... Hopefully that will clear up once you've finished treatment. You can lower the water level to make it easier for him to reach the surface though.

His dorsal looks a lot better! Keep it up!


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks guys!

He is eating normally again it was probably just be moved around so much he didnt like that very much. He is back to his old self but now we have a new problem. There seems to be some grey fuzzy junk attached to his dorsal fin. You can see it here









and here 










We still have one more day (of 10) to treat him with the maracyn II but we don't know what to do after that. Not really sure if this is helping his fin rot or not, and now he is fuzzy too.. well he has that little fuzzy piece on his dorsal.. this is really frustrating. I wish we had found this place when he first got sick instead of relying on the knowledge of people at pet stores.. 

I guess we should give him a break for a few days in some clean water and try the triple sulfa with malachite green? 

Any ideas folks? You guys have been so helpful


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'll let DarkMoon handle the med question but in case she can't reply right away, I would say give him a few days in just clean water. Oh, and be careful with the malachite green and wear gloves when handling it. That fuzzy piece . . . I'm not sure about it. If I'm seeing it correctly, it's kind of fuzzy black? Am I right? I don't think it's columnaris because to the best of my knowledge, that is always fuzzy white. It wouldn't happen to be new growth emerging from that scab, would it? Ergh, the poor guy, his fins sure are giving him a hard time. I'm glad he's eating though, he'll need the food to keep up his strength. 

Sorry I can't offer more info but I think DarkMoon is best qualified to answer the med question and probably make a diagnosis on the fuzzy part. But I'm definitely rooting for your little guy. He has such a beautiful rich blue coloring, almost looks like blue velour or blue satin.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

So sorry about the delay! That looks like a secondary fungal infection... If you haven't begun treatment already give him at least 5 days in clean water w/ daily water changes. Keep the water around 76*F. Treat with just Triple Sulfa and daily 100% water changes. His fins are looking much better and his color is really striking. I love that deep blue. Keep up the good work!


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Hey guys,
So Fish update we found a vet that knows about fish, and was currently treating the vet's office's betta for fin rot. We packed him in his little travelling cup and took him to the vet where the receptionists had a hard time deciding how to properly enter him into the system (apparently we are the only people to bring their betta in to the vet). The vet took a sample from his dorsal fin and did an in house cytology. He found a few types of bacteria that were affecting him pretty badly. He gave feesh a antibiotic shot and said he should have a shot every 3 days for a little while. He also gave us some melafix to help keep away extra infections though we are not using it.. too many stories around about how it is "dangerous".. He has also suggested to use aquarium salt to help keep away creepy crawlies.. When he first got home he was a little woozy from his shot and spent the night on his leaf hammock.. He is swimming around today just fine and his dorsal area isn't looking bad.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow, karsten! I'm really impressed and touched that you found him a vet to treat him. A lot of people would have given up by now so I'm really glad he has you to care for him. Good call on the melafix, it's better to be safe than sorry since it can potentially harm a betta's labyrinth organ. How is the little fighter doing today?


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Well, we were quite surprised that this vet had an interest in fish at all! Everyone who knows we brought the fish to the vet thinks we're off our rockers, but it's simply too hard to look him in the face and not do anything. I don't think that would speak too well to our characters...

Fish is doing alright, thank you for asking! In fact, I just fed him. He's still a little piggy, even though the damage to his dorsal area has been severe. It seems that the secondary fungal infection persists! Little white threads are growing off of the area, presumably chomping on the necrotic flesh in the area. This baffles me as we're being water quality Nazis, changing 1/3 to 2/3 of the water every other day. It's crystal clear and he looks like he's living in 3.5 gallons of Perrier. We've even upped the salt, as per vet recommendation, to 3/4 tsp per gallon, but it's not suppressing fungal growth!

His behavior is the same, however. He's still energetic and comes to greet any visitors with his characterstically loving blank stare (it's irresistably cute). He is having obvious trouble swimming correctly and he's unable to execute those ace "on a dime" turns anymore. But he certainly doesn't let that stop him from trying. 

I think we all have a lot to learn from Fish's resiliency and will to live!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm impressed you found a vet who works with fish. I have yet to have such luck. And if you're off your rockers for taking your fish to the vet then I wanna be off my rocker too.  That's my kind of crazy.

I'm so glad he's eating and behaving normally. It's never a good sign when they lose an appetite because let's face it, bettas live for food, haha. 

I wish I knew what to say about the fungal disease. Does the vet have any recommendations, besides using melafix?


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

i think feesh is dead he isnt moving after his second visit to the vet. i shouldnt have taken him back i should have just left him to live out his days in his mansion without any more interference. he isnt moving his gills and his mouth is open. i d ont know what he looked like the last time he came home from the vet. when i got home a few hours later he was sitting on his leaf hammock. maybe he is alright and he is just super drowsy because of the antibiotic. please gods i hope that is the case i love my fish so much


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

karsten, it's okay, you did everything you could and more. You are an amazing fish owner, one of the most dedicated I've met on this forum. If Feesh has passed, please know that it was NOT your fault. Without you, he would have died a very painful death from his fin rot/fungus. 

Leave your guy in his tank overnight. You'll know for sure if he hasn't moved by morning. If he did pass, he went peacefully and surrounded by love.

*hug*


----------



## karstenchu (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all your help, I just burried him in my engagement ring box in my back yard where in the spring his grave will be covered in lily of the valley. 

Rest in Peace Feesh July 28 2008- September 26 2011


----------



## LaLaLeyla (Aug 17, 2011)

He lived a long good life in your care! You did the best you can.


----------



## Miyazawa (Sep 14, 2011)

You did the best you can. He's probably at the rainbow bridge thinking about all the love that you gave him.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

karsten, I'm so sorry you lost Feesh. But you really did everything you could to save the little guy, and I do mean EVERYTHING. You went to lengths that a lot of hobbyists wouldn't consider. Your love for Feesh is impressive and I know he was aware of how much you cared for him. Animals can sense those kinds of things. You did an awesome job caring for him, karsten.


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm sorry about Feesh.


----------

