# PLEASE HELP, LIFE OR DEATH: Betta lying at bottom of tank, curved spine!



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? 3 gallons
Does it have a filter? No
Does it have a heater? Yes
What temperature is your tank? 79 F
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? None

Food:
What food brand do you use? Aqueon Color Enhancing Betta Food
Do you feed flakes or pellets? Pellets
Freeze-dried? He has blood worms but doesn't seem to eat them.
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? 3 pellets, once a day

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? Once a week.
What percentage of water did you change? 100%
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? Dip out
What additives do you use? Aqueon water conditioner and Aquarium salt. Had used Melafix the week before he became ill, to help promote fin growth after fin rot.

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you.

I don't have a test kit.

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms? Before I changed the water in his tank (when using Melafix), he was acting lethargic, and generally floating at the top of his tank, staying still but for when I would come and check on him.
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? He's become more translucent, and his spine seems to curve upward. 
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? Hardly reacts to visitors, lethargic, laying at the bottom of the tank rather than swimming around.
Is your Betta still eating? He won't eat anything.
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? I cleaned his tank on Monday (It's now Friday), when he became much less active, and when I'd put him back in, he immediately hid in his log and just laid in there. At that point I kept him in a QT cup with some Aquarium salt (I don't have Epsom, apparently, Petco had given me this and said it _was_ Epsom, what a surprise), and now, I'm keeping him in the smaller cube tank, the water lowered, with some conditioner and aquarium salt, making small water changes and keeping an eye on him.
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? He's had swim bladder twice or so, but that's it.
How long have you owned your Betta? Was he or she a rescue? I got Kida at around the beginning of 2015, in February or January, I believe. He's from Petco, but I didn't buy him to rescue him, I bought him because he had such a personality, staring me down with his big black eyes.



















My double tailed betta, Kida, has been very lethargic lately. He's naturally a semi-translucent fish (he's a pale skin tone, basically, and he's a little see-through, naturally), but he's gotten paler than normal. He doesn't have as much energy, and mainly lays at the bottom of his tank, his tail floating up a little. His back is curved up a bit, and his anal and dorsal fins remain spread rather than clamped. It started that his backside would float up a bit, so I had assumed that it might be swim bladder and was treating it as such. His backside had stopped floating up, but as of this morning, it is again.
The thing is, he isn't eating, and it's been a few days, and it hasn't cleared up.
I'm really worried about him. He is prone to swim bladder, as double tails tend to be, but as of yesterday, he's stopped attempting to come see me the way he usually does whenever I check on him. He's a very friendly fish, and loves company-- he'll come up to his visitor and wiggle around-- generally, he's very receptive to people.
But now, he won't even do that. He seems to be trying to move, but he hardly has the energy. I'm trying to get him to eat something, as I'm sure that's contributed to his weakness, but he won't eat anything. He only comes up for air before plummeting back down again. He did manage to swim just a tiny bit yesterday, but it was minimal and he was back at the bottom again within 5 to 10 seconds. He hasn't eaten in a few days, and his health declined when I had gotten busy due to my uni work and cleaned his tank a bit later than I was supposed to. 
I honestly believe he's malnourished.
I've checked him with a magnifying glass for sores or splotches, but I haven't found any. He's very pale, even more translucent now, and I'm not sure if what I can see is good. 
I can't seem to make a diagnosis, though I am sure that the water is what caused it. I had been treating his fin rot using Melafix, and I think that may have harmed him too.
I've had Kida for around 7 to 8 months. He is kept in a 3 gallon tank, but I currently have him in a smaller cube tank with the water lowered to keep a better eye on him, considering he isn't moving much.
If anyone has any idea what I can do to help him heal, please tell me. I don't have a water test kit or a filter, but I do have a heater. He eats pellets, and I've tried blood worms with him, but he doesn't seem interested. No, peas don't work with him-- a bit of a picky eater.
Please let me know, I'm desperate for him to get better, he means a lot to me.

Edit: His tail has stopped floating up again, and now he's lying slanted at the bottom of the tank.


----------



## jessjord (Jun 25, 2015)

I am so sorry i wish i could help...I want to say TB but since it is so rare i truly cannot say. I would message one of the reference team members. lilnaugrim is very good and could help you if you message her  Good luck.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

Thank you, I've messaged her. I personally am not sure that it could be TB, considering what I've read on it, but it's also really hard to know. Thank you again, I appreciate your helping in whatever way you could.


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

keep him warm and with clean water. Try feeding him his favorite foods. I have no idea what he has, but keeping him in a good tank as you have is going to definitely boost his chances! Best of luck.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

Update: I've noticed that his gills open a lot when he breathes. Also, he ate a food pebble! It seems that the main problem for him, food wise, is that he can't make it up for the food, and he doesn't seem to notice it unless it's either right in front of him or has moved a bit into his vision. I'm not sure if this helps at all, but I'm just glad that he's eaten something, even if just a little.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

First off, he doesn't have fin rot, he's biting his own fins. This thread for reference: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=346377

Were you using Aquarium Salt to "help" his swim bladder issues? If so, that's the wrong salt to be using, Epsom Salt is what you'd want to use for a de-swelling agent/laxative. However, in his state, it's only going to dehydrate him and cause wwwaaayyyy more issues.

What level of AQ salt were you using?

It looks more like internal bleeding, possible Kidney rupture, but honestly, Mousie would probably give a better diagnosis and medication suggestion.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

lilnaugrim said:


> First off, he doesn't have fin rot, he's biting his own fins. This thread for reference: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=346377
> 
> Were you using Aquarium Salt to "help" his swim bladder issues? If so, that's the wrong salt to be using, Epsom Salt is what you'd want to use for a de-swelling agent/laxative. However, in his state, it's only going to dehydrate him and cause wwwaaayyyy more issues.
> 
> ...


Hello,

I'm absolutely positive it's fin rot, as it didn't develop overnight and I spend a lot of time with my fish. He's never bitten at his fins, and the problem occurred overtime, due to his water.

And yes, I was. His swim bladder had cleared up every time I'd used it too. The man who sold it to me had told me that it would do the same thing as Epsom, but honestly, I shouldn't have believed him.
As for the level, there is nothing on the box that indicates level. It's API Aquarium Salt, and that's all it says.

I'm currently doing a 25% water change to help get rid of it.

I'll contact them, then. Could you tell me in the mean time whether it's possible for a betta to heal from those, and if so, how? Thank you very much for your help, I really appreciate it.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

Update: His tail is floating up again, and I've noticed a small red dot on one of his gills, as is visible in the second picture posted above in my main thread. He is a very pale colored fish, and his gills are more on the transparent side, but I do have reason to believe they're inflamed. His fins are also spread out, rather than pressed to his body, and clamped together. If this gives anyone any idea of what may be contributing to the issue, please let me know. I'm very desperate to help him heal, and while I've been keeping him in clean, warm water, he still isn't improving.


----------



## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

I agree with Lilnaugrim in that it doesn't look like fin rot to me. I do not see any rot (appears as black or gray edges on fins). Although he does appear to be wasting away, and the bent spine bothers me. In all honesty I'm not sure anything can be done at this point other than keeping his water pristine, which means a partial water change daily. That's going to stress him out if you don't do it slowly.

You can try treating the tank with kanamycin (Seachem KanaPlex) and some Boyd's VitaChem. Sometimes, but not always, a bent spine is due to lack of certain vitamins. I'm not sure that's the case here, but it certainly will not hurt to offer the vitamin drops.

I cannot stress enough the importance of a full liquid test kit. They play a key roll in helping you to be a better aquarist, and it's also important in times like these when you need help to be able to take fresh tests and supply them to those who might be able to help you.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that he pulls through for you.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

Mousie said:


> I agree with Lilnaugrim in that it doesn't look like fin rot to me. I do not see any rot (appears as black or gray edges on fins). Although he does appear to be wasting away, and the bent spine bothers me. In all honesty I'm not sure anything can be done at this point other than keeping his water pristine, which means a partial water change daily. That's going to stress him out if you don't do it slowly.
> 
> You can try treating the tank with kanamycin (Seachem KanaPlex) and some Boyd's VitaChem. Sometimes, but not always, a bent spine is due to lack of certain vitamins. I'm not sure that's the case here, but it certainly will not hurt to offer the vitamin drops.
> 
> ...


I'll take both of your word on that, then, thank you. I agree, he does appear to be deteriorating. I've been keeping his water clean, changing it daily and as needed. I'll make sure that I'm doing it as carefully as possible.
The bend in his spine, I will add, goes away when he swims, though he doesn't have the energy to do it often.

I've just gotten back from the pet store, and got the test kit, though they didn't have either medications. I'm currently looking online for the medications you've listed, to see if there are any places nearby that carry them or if I need to order them.

My results from the test kit:

amonia: 0
nitrate: 0
nitrite: 0
total hardness: 150
total chlorine: 0
total alkalinity: 40
PH: 7.2

His water is also currently at 80 degrees F.

Thank you so much for your help and well-wishes, I appreciate it more than I can express.


----------



## Aquastar (Jul 17, 2015)

Internal parasites maybe? Just a guess? 
Yeah, AQ is the worst against SBD and bloating. I hope he recovers, I had some guppies float tail up with white edging around their ripped fins, is that what the 'finrot' looks like? But I'm pretty sure it tail biting.


----------



## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

I am so sorry your guy is not feeling well. I had one do similar things that had internal parasites. Prazipro is a good drug of choice for that. I know how hard it is to watch one struggle! It is so hard to know sometimes what is really going on with them.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

Aquastar said:


> Internal parasites maybe? Just a guess?
> Yeah, AQ is the worst against SBD and bloating. I hope he recovers, I had some guppies float tail up with white edging around their ripped fins, is that what the 'finrot' looks like? But I'm pretty sure it tail biting.


From what I've researched, that could be a possibility. I'll look further into it, though. Any step closer to figuring out what's bothering him is a good step.
As for the white edging on the fins, I do believe that would mean it's fin rot, but I'm not an expert on the subject or on guppies, so I wouldn't take my word on it.
It seems that Kida's been biting his tail, from what every one is saying. I wish I'd noticed, because I do take the time to watch him as often as I can.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

themamaj said:


> I am so sorry your guy is not feeling well. I had one do similar things that had internal parasites. Prazipro is a good drug of choice for that. I know how hard it is to watch one struggle! It is so hard to know sometimes what is really going on with them.


Thank you.
Two of you now have commented that it could be internal parasites, so I will look into that more. Some of the symptoms had matched up when I'd researched, and it could be a possibility. I'll look into Prazipro as well. I ordered the vitamins Mousie recommended last night, and I'm currently just working to keep Kida kicking.
It's been upsetting the past few days. He's a very strong fish, always fighting hard to pull through, and he really means a lot to me, more than I can really express. It could sound odd, but I have a very strong emotional connection to him, and he helps me get through each day. He really deserves to heal and be happy and healthy again.
It's so hard to know, yeah. They're so small and we only have so much to determine by. It's a constant learning process, and it's easy to beat yourself up over what you hadn't known because taking care of them is such a responsibility, and I blame myself whenever things like this happen. 
So it's really helpful when people are so willing to come and help, give advice, and take the time to read through the thread to help figure out what's going on with them. I really appreciate it, so thank you.


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Hows he doing? Like I said, my betta went through a spell like this but pulled through.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> Hows he doing? Like I said, my betta went through a spell like this but pulled through.


He's doing much better, thank you! Two days ago, he started swimming around again, and he comes to see me and watches me while I work. He's eating (from the surface of the water, now), he isn't lying around anymore, and he's got much more energy. He's still having a little bit of trouble swimming properly, but it's nowhere near as bad as before. I'm sure he'll regain control soon enough. I'll be moving him from his QT tank to his regular tank soon, and I'll be very sure to make sure I change his water correctly to avoid this again. 
The vitamins came in very late, but Kida pulled through for me-- he's a fighter, if anything. I had treated him with some Tetracycline, in the mean time, and now he's got some fresh water with the vitamins. I'm holding off on the Kanaplex unless I find it necessary. He's doing so well and I'm very grateful to everyone for the help.


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Oh, good!!!! What he went through is almost exactly what happened to my boy, Sam. he made it and is better then ever, though, but be on the lookout that he may be a little slower when he swims and may avoid current. My boy won’t go near the filter, and the current is barely there at all.


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> Oh, good!!!! What he went through is almost exactly what happened to my boy, Sam. he made it and is better then ever, though, but be on the lookout that he may be a little slower when he swims and may avoid current. My boy won’t go near the filter, and the current is barely there at all.


Thank you so much-- I'm glad Sam is okay. It's really worrisome, and I'd gone the past 2 weeks thinking Kida was going to die. I'm still very apprehensive even now. And yes, I'll keep my eye on that. He's swimming fine, but the water seems to pick him up now and then, so that must be it. I'm thinking that it was a bacterial infection in the intestines and/or swim bladder that caused it-- especially considering what had been the sinking to the bottom with the tail floating up, and now, the slight difficulty keeping control as he's swimming. I could be wrong, but it seems the most probable from his symptoms vs. everything I've read. 
Thank you so much for checking in, I really appreciate it!


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Me too. I was carrying him around with me to my various desks when he was sick, keeping a really close eye on him. Sam does the same thing. the current gets him and he jets over to the “safe” side. Its pretty much the only time he really gets going instead of cruising around like a boss. LOl
No problem on checking in. I’m just super glad you saved him!


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> Me too. I was carrying him around with me to my various desks when he was sick, keeping a really close eye on him. Sam does the same thing. the current gets him and he jets over to the “safe” side. Its pretty much the only time he really gets going instead of cruising around like a boss. LOl
> No problem on checking in. I’m just super glad you saved him!


Ah, it might sound a bit odd, but I've slept on the couch the past 2 weeks so I could stay with him. Half so that I could do anything needed as soon as possible, and half because I wanted to be with him in case he died.
Betta fish are really special, very intelligent and they have personalities of their own. They're very important. But yes, I'm glad it's all been sorted out. And it's good to hear that I'm not the only one that's experienced this with my betta-- no one seemed to know what was going on or could tell me what was happening from experience, so it was a lot of shooting in the dark. 
Again, thank you!


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Aww! that’s sweet! I totally agree with you. bettas are some of the most amazing, special fish I’ve ever seen. The definitely grow to learn who is their caretaker and figure out what time if feeding time, that’s for sure!
It was totally like that when sam had it. no one else on the web knew what was up. I just went and changed his water well. He really perked up when I moved him to a ten gallon from a 3.5. Now he’s completely better. :0)


----------



## vonion (Jun 3, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> Aww! that’s sweet! I totally agree with you. bettas are some of the most amazing, special fish I’ve ever seen. The definitely grow to learn who is their caretaker and figure out what time if feeding time, that’s for sure!
> It was totally like that when sam had it. no one else on the web knew what was up. I just went and changed his water well. He really perked up when I moved him to a ten gallon from a 3.5. Now he’s completely better. :0)


I had to change his water quite a lot, but he's doing much much better. I do have a question though-- did your Sam have boyancy problems afterward at all? Kida is still floating up just a little bit, and I'm wondering if I should keep up his treatment until it goes away. Thoughts?


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Hmmmmm..... I don’t remember any buoyancy problems, actually. I’m not sure, but that might just be a part of him getting better? After Sam got sick he was fine for a day or two, then got some bad fin rot. After he got over that second wave of illness he’s been a lot healthier. Not as active, his color isn’t as shimmery, and his fins are tore up from the fin rot (Still growing back) but whats important is that he’s healthy and happy. 
So I would say keep a close eye on it, keep the water clean and if it gets worse check out some more medicine. In my experience warm, clean water is the best healing for fish, especially bettas!


----------



## stellenternet (Dec 3, 2014)

Could he have injured himself?


----------



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Mayve. I don’t know how mine could’ve, but its possible.


----------

