# Black-metallic black double ray crowntails



## DBanana

So I'm going to start this log up now. 

Breeding Dag, the DRCT male (not sure on his colouring. Black with metallics? Crazy-Town?) to B 

Sire

















Dame









The breeding tank is set up and cycled, plants at the ready, more plants to be added. 

This is, strictly speaking, a fry test run but I'm still managing to hold on to some hopes for the offspring. BBS hatchery is set up directly next to the breeding tank and the grow out tank is ready directly below it.


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## rebeckah

he is gorgous,


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## Lights106

Wow. PRETTY!!!


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## amphirion

that pretty little lady is one hot mama... 
dare i say if the male isnt a sibling of the female, he might be out of her league. 

so you're trying to aim for metallic blacks? multicolored metallic or solid? sounds really cool. male looks like he's got some decent irridescence, maybe from a green/turquoise line. hard to really tell since he looks different in both pictures. looks like he might be non-red as well.

looking forward to what happens next!


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## DBanana

I think he is a sibling. You should see her stomach, it's like a little balloon all the time. I'd have thought she was constipated but she eats well and I've seen her expelling fine enough. I think she's still a little egg laden from when he was on the other side of the divider.


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## Superach

wahooo so excited  keep us updated!!! so want a pair


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## JDragon

Haha! :lol: Kind of funny how you didn't expect to receive him with your order of girls, called him dag, and now you're breeding him. He's a pretty boy and I'm not a fan of crowntails. :-D


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## DBanana

Well I never said I didn't want him, just that he was unplanned for. An unplanned male betta is a massive scramble.


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## DBanana

Introduced the pair. She spent five minutes whooping his butt, he spent about the same whooping hers. She's hiding under an IAL and he's building a bubble nest under one that is floating nearby.


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## nguyen

good luck on your spawn look nice !


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## Neecy

Both are so beautiful! I can't wait to see them babies....good luck! :-D


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## DBanana

He's not a very good nest builder but bless his heart he's trying.


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## DBanana

They're doing test wraps now, no eggs, then she runs away for a minute and comes back, they do another sort of semi-embrace and she runs away again while he bubbles some more.


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## amphirion

That was hella fast!


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## DBanana

Well they've been stuck on that since then.


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## DBanana

Also I have been playing this for them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkADj0TPrJA


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## Neecy

A little mood music! maybe light some candles too! hehehe ;-)


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## DBanana

Well he's providing the bubbly.


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## Neecy

DBanana said:


> Well he's providing the bubbly.


haha!! very true! :tongue:


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## DBanana

As far as I can see, no progress.


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## DBanana

Looks like they're wrapping in earnest now.


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## SorcerersApprentice

Good luck! Beautiful pair, the female especially!


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## DBanana

They started wrapping when I left the house for a job interview and were done when I got home. There's a MILLION eggs in there. @[email protected]

She also looks seriously deflated. She was like a bubble goldfish before but now she's slimmed down to a normal size. Omg. 

Daddy is tending them nicely but mom is hiding where I can't get her without disturbing the nest so I'm waiting for her to come out.


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## Neecy

yay!!! ..I cant wait for pics of the full nest! ...why is this so ridiculously exciting?? haha!


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## DBanana

This is a portion of the nest, best photo I could get. The nest continues on and covers the underside of the IAL in the photo, about half the size of a full sized leaf. As far as I can tell, the underside of the IAL is as packed with eggs as this shot. 

She seriously looks like a deflated balloon.


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## DBanana

Dad is working CRAZY hard. He's shuffling around under there like he's got a fire under his tail.


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## kellray

Do you mind me asking-where did you get your female?


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## DBanana

I got her from Thailand Bettas Hub on Aquabid. 

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/vfb.cgi?&&vfb&Thailandbettashub

She doesn't have anything up right now.


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## DBanana

Really rough estimate of eggs is around 400 range.


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## Neecy

wow! I don't know much about the process but that sounds like a whole heck of a lot lol...poor mama for having to expel all that and poor papa for having all that upkeep! hard working fishies!! :shock:


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## DBanana

She was really hungry when I got her back in the sorority. You can already see the thin tissue that shows fin healing around her caudal tear and the broken rays on her anal fin. She's back to bullying the other girls and gulping down food.


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## DBanana

Daddy ate some last night, he's got a big full stomach.

:roll:

There are still around 100-ish eggs left by my guesstimate. He's sort of letting the bubbles go though, he's just keeping the eggs together. No getting lazy on me Dag!

He's also at the point where if someone walks in front of the tank he goes flaring like crazy at the front and then goes back to circle under the nest. I've put a towel over the front of the tank because...well it's in the kitchen. We've got to eat. 

Keeping a really anxious eye on these guys. Going on a shopping trip for some more supplies later today, haha.


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## Artemis

That stinks :/ However, what would you have done with 400+ Fish?! Yes death rate would be accounted for but it looks very hard to count eggs with how tiny they are and light reflecting off of bubbles, etc. and you would have really had your hands full.


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## DBanana

I'll admit it, I added a little prime to the tank and he's started making bubbles in earnest. There's a little egg that's drifted to the front of the tank and is hanging out against the front glass. I'm watching it develop. So tiny.


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## BettaBabyBoo

I can't wait to see the fry! It'll be interesting to see how dad's coloring comes through :tongue:


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## DBanana

I don't think he's going to get any #1 dad mugs any time soon but if I can get a couple of fry into my care then I will call it a good test run.


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## DBanana

The nest is breaking up, not sure if Dag is going to rebuild or if we'll just call this a failed attempt. But be what it may, valuable experience on all fronts.


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## DBanana

OMFG

I saw a little fry, the tiniest thing, as it sank from the surface. It's yolk sac was so much bigger than it, and it twitched it's tail as it sank and Dag didn't save it before it hit the bottom.

Dag you are living up to your name! SAVE YOUR BABIES


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## trilobite

Yaay!
Im in love with your pair especially that female! Cant wait to see how the fry turn out :-D


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## DBanana

Well if he keeps ignoring sinking fry, they're going to turn out dead. I'm cursing him up and down like crazy over here.


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## DBanana

We've got fry!

Peaking at the nest I can't see an unhatched egg. Every time a bubble pops there's a flurry of tiny tails curling and uncurling from the disturbance. I wish my camera would focus on objects that small!


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## Neecy

woot! woot! :lol:


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## DBanana

As soon as I can get decent pics I will. The babies are spinning around the top, bare minimum bubbles with Dag lurking underneath to make sure they stay there. He's gotten some energy back and he's eaten a lot of the eggs that were on the bottom so I think he's doing good food wise.


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## DBanana

You can see some of the fry at the edges. There's more in the middle.


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## Neecy

awww I see them!! I see them!! :thumbsup:


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## Artemis

'lil baby fry heads! And there are so many! Daddy looks like he's being pretty good, minus the bubble nest or lack thereof. That's such a cute picture though.


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## Bailmint

Oh my Gosh I can't wait to see what happens next!!


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## DBanana

The nest is in an area that's 'walled' off by floating objects and some of the fry are taking the opportunity to learn to skate on surface tension. They leave the bubble nest, go spinning across, stop, and then dart back to the bubbles.

:roll:

I could watch them all day.


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## DBanana

I think they are at the stage of beginning free swimming. Dag is running around the tank after them and every time he goes in one direction a couple more escape from the nest area in the other.

:roll: Man....I feel his pain. Kids!


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## DBanana

I woke up this morning to an aquarium full of fry all over the place, lol. So dad has been taken out and is acclimating to his new digs (he's pissed) and a sponge filter (old media) has been put in to start cycling some of the gross.


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## Neecy

pics ! pics! pics! ;-)


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## DBanana

It's hard! My camera wants to focus on a spot of algea or a snail or anything else. I'm hoping if I take enough I can catch the tiniest little sign of a caudal fin. Otherwise they look exactly like these fellows (and the video tank is much nicer looking than mine)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xofBpNRGpUo


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## amphirion

simply wonderful! wishing you the best!


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## DBanana

After talking to some breeders over Aquabid I have decided to not add BBS until they're about a week old. I'm watching them closely in their tank and there's tons of little critters wiggling about, you can see the babies catching and eating them. Some are still too big for them to eat but I'm sure they'll get there soon. So for now I'm keeping an eye on the prey level in the tank and I'll keep my BBS hatchery close by, but they're going to eat what they catch for now. They are so adorable. I can't wait to see their little CT rays. @[email protected]


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## BettaBabyBoo

I am so excited about these fry  I love CTs and Dag is gorgeous!


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## DBanana

I'm starting to suspect that a lot of the eggs I thought Dag ate had just hatched (sorry Dag!). It's quite a sight when you see a half dozen tiny fry coming out of the betta-log while the same number hunt along the sides. Lol. Then there are dozens hanging out in the frogbit 'forest' of roots, more inside the floating rooted plant in there, etc. I can't really guess how many there are, but there are a lot. I'd say 99% of them are in the top four inches of water but there are a couple of 'deepies' that dive down chasing food (I bred in a full 10g) and then hang around at the 5-6 inch deep mark for a little while before heading surface side again. 

Tell you what though, I need a nerite. The algea in there went from 'look at me I'm a tiny bit' to 'TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER' pretty dang fast. Fry love it though, they're hunting along the surface of it like it's a buffet.


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## DBanana

Photos for you? Some are pretty fuzzy, it's hard to take their photo!

Just after Dag was taken out. He was trying to rebuild the nest to trap them in it. 









Freedom!









Can you see me?









Lots to eat over here


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## duskydolphin

Ahhhhh, so cute! **squeals**

I think I'm going to live vicariously through your breeding adventures. And if I can make room, I would soooo love one of your little ones.


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## DBanana




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## Artemis

So the critters weren't purposely added to the tank? That's nice for you!


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## Neecy

I'm sooo loving this! thank you SO much for sharing this adventure! :yourock:


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## DBanana

They can be, but it is a side effect of the plants. Any plants will contain critters, but in the warm stillness of a breeding tank they multiply rapidly.


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## DBanana

Well there were more fry than I thought, they were cleaning the prey out pretty fast, so I'm prepping to decapsulate some BBS and might supplement a little tomorrow. 

Also I got my double sponge filter today! Yay! Looks so much nicer than my cobbled together POS.


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## DBanana

I haven't been able to get any good pics, but you can definitely see caudal and pectorals when you look closely. Some of the (slightly) bigger caudals you can see faint lines that I'm assuming will be rays.


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## DBanana

Well I tried supplementing with decapsulated BBS and I saw them spit it out! Little snots. =_=


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## missavgp

do you have vinegar eels? I know mine love those as a first food


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## DBanana

I'm getting some from Anne Marie of Betta Breeders Canada, they should be here tomorrow.


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## missavgp

Cool. I don't know if you have used them before, but I actually found that a beer bottle (or something shaped like one) works really well for harvesting. and congrats to Dag on the contest.


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## DBanana

Of all the times not to drink!

I'll have to figure one out, lol.


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## missavgp

Any bottle that narrows at the top make it easier to harvest, just fill with vinegar eels till it narrows, stuff a wad of filer floss in until it is just touching the cider, then fill above the floss with tank water. The eels will swim up through the floss and you can just suck them out and straight in to the babies


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## DBanana

Can you link to a pic of the type of floss you use? I prefer to use stuff other people have had good experiences with than dump around and experiment.


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## missavgp

I actually just got some of the filter floss from Big Al's on Boxing Day. It works great, though I have also used polyester fill from walmart to no ill effects.


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## DBanana

I'm planning on running up to Big Al's near me on Friday so I'll put it on my shopping list.


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## DBanana

Snails are the filthiest things on the planet. Gross gross gross gross. I'm ordering a snail trap tomorrow. 99.999999% of the waste in that aquarium is their poop. =_=


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## missavgp

I know!! I had them in my fry tank, they were even killing some of my babies so I had a purge. The only snails I like now are assassin snails.  No asexual reproduction so unless you have a male and female, no eggs and no population explosion


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## DBanana

I'm going to put them on my list for tomorrow too.


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## Artemis

Just get one per tank, they will breed if you have male and female. You really should supplement their diet with more snails once they get rid of the ones you have, it's much better for them than just prepared food. Don't put them in with a snail you like, they will constantly pester larger snails and if you get enough, they will attack in packs. :O


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## DBanana

I think missavgp covered that, lol. 

MOAR PICTURES

















CAUDAL CAUDAL CAUDAL (it's hard to get the camera to capture it, but I love looking at them through a magnifying glass)








Two of them checking out the betta log. Roomy!


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## Bailmint

They're so cute! <33


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## Artemis

Oh, oops, lol. And with that betta log for reference you can really see how teeny they are. How cute!


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## DBanana

I was really unhappy with the snail poop bare/bottom side so I added some granuales super slowly and put in a small fortune of moss. Now we play 'find the babies'


















Caught this fellow free-floating. He never actually reached the surface. 

Going up








Coming down


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## DBanana

Super snail is actively 'flying' around the aquarium now. I think he was supposed to be born a nudibranch.


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## valen1014

Awww such cutie pies!! Can't wait to see what they turn out like. As you know, I absolutely love dark CTs <3

By the way, you tank is incredible. I wish I could keep that much green alive in mine. Is that moss or riccia growing on the lava rock?


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## DBanana

I was told it's moss (and I'm not bothered enough to look up one way or another). I wasn't kidding when I said I paid a small fortune for the mats of moss and baby tear. :shock: I have a small system CO2 system in there to keep the plants happy, couple hours during the day while the lights are on. Need to get an assassin snail though, they're getting out of hand. So far the fry are loving the moss.


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## DBanana

Well the moss has been a massive hit with the fry...also with the snails. I cannot find an assassin snail at any of the pet stores around here. Drive me CRAZY. I hate these damn things. I've created snail heaven, they're repro'ing like mad. 

Some of the fry are about half the size of their siblings, *sigh*, I had hoped to avoid that. Other's have developed an aged penny colouring which I think compliments their eyes. I'll try to get more pics soon. The junction between two moss pads has become a popular gathering spot so it'll, hopefully, be easier to get pictures.


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## DBanana

The daily water changes have started. I bought a $2-something little Fluval pre-filter sponge for a variety of reasons and it's currently stuck it on the end of my tube to keep fry from getting sucked in, works a treat, though I imagine you could just slice a partial hole in a huck of sponge and get the same level of effectiveness. 

For some reason my BBS are NOT hatching. I've been feeding with powdered pellets (mortar and pestle) and decapsulated BBS. Grindal worms are on back order with a local, and my vinegar eels aren't ready to harvest yet. Well the good things is I know they're not starving. 

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3650250


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## DBanana

Also, since the moss and soil granules went in, the larger food bits that the fry don't eat get covered in little white squiggly things that the smaller fry cluster around and eat, so they're getting...something.


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## missavgp

I also use the Fluval Edge pre-filter sponge on the end of my siphon to clean my fry tank. it works great, though I do still remove it to get the gunk off the bottom of the tank first which inevitably sucks up a few babies, though I have found that with the siphon attachment off, they don't suffer anything more than a swirl through the water into the clear bucket. Though trying to collect them back up again and put them back into the tank is a trial when they are that small.


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## missavgp

"Of all the times not to drink!

I'll have to figure one out, lol."

another place you can get containers for harvesting and for keeping cultures and for jarring supplies is the dollar store. I've found Dollarama or Dollar Tree to have the most options for containers, though A Buck or Two is great for needlepoint mesh and report holders for DIY tank dividers


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## Superach

You found needle point mesh at a buck or two?? I have been searching trying to find some!!!


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## missavgp

yeah I figured I'd check and see if I could find it at a dollar store before I shelled out the money that craft stores usually charge. It's $1 a sheet, though it was on special once that I was in at 2/$1 (I bought a lot that day ;-) )


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## DBanana

Well some of them are getting quite fat on crushed snails. One of them is just about a tad over a quarter or an inch long and the same colour as an old penny.


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## Superach

pics?? pretty please


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## DBanana

I'm working on it, but he (he?) spends a lot of time where the crushed snails are (which are invariably in the plants)


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## Artemis

Joann's near me has some craft mesh for pretty cheap. A little over a dollar for heavy and stiff fine mesh and 70 cents or so for wider spacing and flimsier mesh. The sheets range in size and shape.


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## missavgp

yeah, I'm not sure we have anything like that up here in Canada. It pays to look around though. I was kinda in a hurry to get it and was lucky enough to find it there. 

And DB, they always do that! lol my biggest and most coloured copper babies make sure that when the camera comes out they are nowhere to be found. How're the vinegar eels coming? Do you have some microworms and grindal worms as well?


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## DBanana

No microworms and the grindals are still on back order. We're making do. I've got a lot of scrubs from the moss and I've been catching those and cutting 'em up and tossing them in. Plus the crushed snails and the powdered pellets, they're growing fine. The vinegar eel culture is coming along nicely but won't be ready to harvest for a while.


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## missavgp

too bad you weren't closer. have you checked with the local club members for cultures? There is the Durham Region Aquarium Society and the Chatham-Kent Aquarium Society depending on where exactly you are. Someone there might have cultures available immediately.


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## Kwomais

Aaaaaand following...


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## DBanana

Well my hub's cousin is in your area, and goes to UoT so...maybe I can have her courier a shipment of worms? I don't know. Lol. 

And no, I have no car so I can't get around to the other area aquarium clubs.


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## PoissonsMom

missavgp said:


> "Of all the times not to drink!
> 
> I'll have to figure one out, lol."
> 
> another place you can get containers for harvesting and for keeping cultures and for jarring supplies is the dollar store. I've found Dollarama or Dollar Tree to have the most options for containers, though A Buck or Two is great for needlepoint mesh and report holders for DIY tank dividers


Wait.... Needlepoint mesh works as dividers? That's cool, that's easy 2 find!! How do get it 2 stick tho, so nobody slips thru the edges?


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## missavgp

PoissonsMom said:


> Wait.... Needlepoint mesh works as dividers? That's cool, that's easy 2 find!! How do get it 2 stick tho, so nobody slips thru the edges?


I use report holders, the kind that you slide the paper into similar to these:

http://www.staples.ca/en/Staples-Sl...SBD:58:21800&gclid=CLG5gcXqob0CFc9AMgodUyoAGw

Then I use aquarium silicone to hold the plastic strips to the aquarium and the mesh slides in like the paper. That way you can easily change the number of partitions by removing the mesh, but if needed you can add them back in.


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## PoissonsMom

missavgp said:


> I use report holders, the kind that you slide the paper into similar to these:
> 
> http://www.staples.ca/en/Staples-Sl...SBD:58:21800&gclid=CLG5gcXqob0CFc9AMgodUyoAGw
> 
> Then I use aquarium silicone to hold the plastic strips to the aquarium and the mesh slides in like the paper. That way you can easily change the number of partitions by removing the mesh, but if needed you can add them back in.


I tried going 2 link u provided but it tells me my postal code is invalid... Maybe since I am in USA, not Canada? Is there any way u could plz take a pic of ur divider setup & post it (or inbox) so I can get an idea of what u mean? Thx in advance!!


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## DBanana

Well either the runts have been eaten or they all discovered smooshed snails. 

Probably about a dozen sited in the stalks of the forest that are visibly sporting tiny anals, dorsals and maybe ventrals? They're pretty big for fry their age it seems like, they're all pretty dark coloured, the colour of the Fluval plant dirt. BigBoy is eating snail eggs (yes!yes!yes!). He's taking a bite, throwing himself into reverse and thrashing around to tear them off. Lot like his mom (the brine shrimp this morning stuck together and she tried to eat a group the size of her damn head =_=). 

Dag and B are eyeing each other across the room, Dag has built a bubble nest over more than half of his tank and B is eggy as hell, I may throw them back together in the spawn tub when I move the fry over in the grow out tank. I'm ready to set up the grow out tank with plants (got the ferts in the mail) so probably in the next week or two. By then the VE will be ready to harvest.


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## DBanana

Excitementttt. BigBoy, when he pauses against a white-ish background, can be seen sporting rays that are just a little longer than his caudal. Just the tiniest bit but omg crowntail babbbyyyy.


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## DBanana

The vid linked is about the size they are now, only imagine them in a planted tank and the colour of old pennies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoZo9ym7vm0


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## valen1014

DBanana said:


> The vid linked is about the size they are now, only imagine them in a planted tank and the colour of old pennies
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoZo9ym7vm0


Awww they are sooooo adorable with their full bellies! I miss when my babies were like that hehe XD


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## DBanana

Those aren't mine, I wish I had that many. I might, it's hard to tell with the plants. Lol.


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## DBanana

We're in the 'boring' stage now. I have lots to do with them every day (feeding, changing water) but there's not a lot of development besides slowly getting bigger. Putting an oto in the tank seems to have stopped the tidal wave of snail reproduction (stomping in on their food supply) but I'm still crushing tonnes a day. Hopefully don't need to get an assassin snail but if I don't see an improvement I might.


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## valen1014

DBanana said:


> We're in the 'boring' stage now. I have lots to do with them every day (feeding, changing water) but there's not a lot of development besides slowly getting bigger. Putting an oto in the tank seems to have stopped the tidal wave of snail reproduction (stomping in on their food supply) but I'm still crushing tonnes a day. Hopefully don't need to get an assassin snail but if I don't see an improvement I might.


Just curious, what kind of snails are they and do you find that they help keep the tank cleaner?


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## DBanana

With all their poop? God no. I've seen a great improvement since the oto was put in for algea, but the snails have just made filth.


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## missavgp

I agree with DB on the snails and poop. They make the tank SOOOO dirty.


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## Artemis

+1 on that. Snails poop a LOT. They are the goldfish of aquatic inverts. Have you tried a trap? Sink some cucumber or broccoli (the stem not the dark green florets) at night and in the morning it should be covered in them but you have to keep the tank covered or get up before the sun because they will go and hide more when light comes. You can fish out the leftover bait and have a lot of snails with it.


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## DBanana

Ugh, one of the big!boys(?) has a definitive dip in his spine. If he was a guppy I'd cull him a heart beat, but I'm going to try to find him a forever home. He's very active, very full (obviously, one of the bigger ones), and I was always sure I had a harder heart than this.


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## amphirion

Can anybody pinpoint usually when spinal issues start popping up and what causes them? I suspect it could be a possible result of nutrient deficiency not being fed enough of a varied diet. A second possibility I was think was due to uneven growth rates associated with high fluctuations in temps. If I recall correctly the last time I did bettas, the issues started around week 3-4. Does anybody else have any idea?


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## DBanana

No idea. Admittedly the first theory might have merit. The temp in that tank has been deep-crust steady the whole time, so I don't think that's it.


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## PetMania

Subscribing  I love crowntails


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## Artemis

Good luck with finding a home for him. Genetic issues might cause it, I would think.


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## DBanana

I hope so. He's enjoying the heck out of life, chasing skuds around the bottom of the tank (think he'll be the first to eat those when he's bigger). Got a few mom's around here I know who might take him him.


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## Artemis

That's good. I would think it'd be easier to cull ones that are smaller and young when they haven't grown on you as much.


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## MattsBettas

Every fish I've had with actual spinal issues (not just topline issues) has had them since I could see the fish.

I don't kill them since they can still live healthy lives (and I don't kill animals I breed), but it's something to watch. Some fish improve over time which is another reason I leave them alone when they're young.


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## DBanana

I love seeing the little brine shrimp eggs (decapsulated) bright against their bellies.


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## Artemis

+1 with Matt. I wouldn't cull a fish that could happily live. Re-reading my post I feel like I made it seem like I would and want to make sure no one sees me as a fish killer :O


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## DBanana

How everyone culls is up to them, and even if people took it that way they shouldn't be jerks to you about it.


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## DBanana

Awww, I can see itty bitty ventrals. :3


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## amphirion

DBanana said:


> How everyone culls is up to them, and even if people took it that way they shouldn't be jerks to you about it.


agreed. in my case, it will be likely that i will be using the ice bath. i simply dont have the time or resources to raise those that already show signs to deformity at an early age to a shippable size to send off. of course, im sure discretion is appreciated--i have no intention of stating that i've sent 10-15 fry to the ice bath in my journal.


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## Artemis

I will add that I deal with about 5-50 fry at a time, not 150 to 300. So, culling isn't very necessary for me. And quite frankly I think I would either use clove oil, or feed them to one of my bettas. It's like feeding a betta to an oscar, but without having a giant fish. I saw a goldfish farm that would scoop up fry without perfect fins or deformities and just toss them on the ground and sweep them up later. They would have hundreds of fish to go through and 1/4 - 1/2 were getting culled before they were even a half inch long.


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## DBanana

Four weeks and two days in, they're doing good. I can usually snap more of them right after feeding time but because of errands I had to try after water change (when they make themselves scarce somewhere. 

Kink up in the duckweed.









Still digesting the decapsulated eggs soaked in the liquid given off by frozen brine shrimp defrosting.


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## PoissonsMom

Awww  They're starting 2 like like tiny bettas!! Adorable!!!


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## Bailmint

They're precious<3 If you sell some when they grow up I might buy one if I can convince my mom xD.


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## DBanana

I haven't been able to find Kink since I took the photos. I don't know if he passed (and was promptly eaten by scuds, those things are everywhere) or if he started improving since I've started soaking the decapsulated eggs with brine shrimp juice that has dissolved calcium powder in it.


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## beautiful Betta

Well he may have had other issues that you wouldn't have known about if he has passed. Really interesting thread. Poor old Dag he wasn't such a Dag after all, lol.


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## DBanana

Yheah, you really don't seem to have grasped the reason he was named Dag.


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## beautiful Betta

Obviously not, I must have missed it, lol. I didn't notice any reference to why he was called Dag. Just that you mentioned he was living up to his name in the parenting field for watching the fry fall to the bottom and not collecting them. That was what I was referring to. After seeing all the fry pictures he didn't do too bad for his first attempt, a bit late I know but I have only just found the thread.


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## DBanana

There's two that have definite 'territories'. A much darker/black fry I feel might be a girl, and a 'boy'(?) with a real orangy redness to his fins already. 

Red 'boy

























Darker 'girl'


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## beautiful Betta

For their age they look to be of good colour.


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## DBanana

Some of the bigger ones are getting moved over to the grow out tank today. Wish I had some more plants in there, but I'm sure the ones that are there will fill out some more. Exciting to have them be this big.


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## amphirion

brine shrimp juice contains calcium? this i've never heard of. kids look like they're making strides in their progress. maybe breeding size by 3 months!


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## DBanana

It contains calcium from the dissolved calcium tablets...


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## amphirion

hahha. you sneaky!


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## DBanana

You put veggies in sauces for the human kiddos and you put calcium in brine shrimp juice for the fishy kiddos. 

Either way you're lying by omission, but with fish it's ok because they can't accuse you of anything.


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## amphirion

hahaha. good point.


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## BlueLacee

Looking good


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## DBanana

Got about four (guessing boys) that have red fins with black edging. I think I'm going to end up with more than I had predicted. There are two dozen in the grow out tank and at least another dozen still in the fry tank. Damn.


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## DBanana

Current count is about 60-ish (stop moving!) going around in both tanks.


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## amphirion

I can relate. My last count after the massive die off was 85. Can only imagine what the original count must have been... Will probably need to purchase another bin soon if you're already doing it for 60 (good grief!)


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## DBanana

Bin?


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## amphirion

Plastic bins. Makes for easier clean up and stackable. No such thing as stackable glass tanks just yet...


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## DBanana

Well, I've got heated shelves.


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## pennyls9332

awww babies.... can i subscribe twice lol


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## DBanana

Grow out tank kiddos are getting big!

Big boy(?)









Group rummaging for food


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## beautiful Betta

All looking good.


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## DBanana

I wish I could take decent pics, I really do, as it is I can see their little rays, the web reduction, the group that's showing red fins with black edging (can I call them the Khorne line?) and all the little details but I can't portray it on camera. 

Sigh. But yes, they're doing great. Fry that are still in the fry tank are rapidly getting big enough to go to the grow out (can't wait till they're all in the grow out and I can stop doing daily water changes on both, especially since I have two other tanks to water/change on) and I'm hoping they'll be ready for sale and/or re-homing by end of May.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14




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## DBanana

What?


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

They're pretty


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## Bailmint

If you have any extra female fry in the fall time, I'd love to take some since I'm starting a sorority, if conflict breaks out I have a backup plan but usually it works out with sisters.


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## DBanana

I'm going to try to take some pics tonight. I've got a number of yellow finned 'mustard gas' as well as some red finned 'mustard gas' types (the ones I call the berserkers of Khorne). There are a few black only ones which I'm keeping an eye on.

For me mustard gas is a dark body (blue, black) with a fin colour and a body colour ring around the edge of the fin.


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## scififan523

I am in the same mind set as Bailmint. Those parents are gorgeous and I would love to take a couple females of your hands, lol. If you can ship in the US (not positive which Toronto, but guessing Canada?), that is.


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## DBanana

Toronto is in Canada yes. Would have to figure something out.


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## Bailmint

Ah I'm in the US too :/, doesn't people in Thailand do Transhippers or something on aquabid?


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## DBanana

Yes, but good luck finding a transshipper that wants to send from U.S. to Canada or Canada to U.S. and if you do, I imagine there's a substantial fee to it. Plus the risk of fish being held at customs, shipping, etc.


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## MattsBettas

Isn't Toronto right on the border? From what I know (and I've actually done it before, minus the shipping part), B. splendens can legally be driven across the border, and then shipped out from there (Detroit, I believe).


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## scififan523

Just interweb searched, and the US CDC doesn't have restrictions on bringing live fish across the border . http://www.cdc.gov/animalimportation/bringinganimaltous.html
...That means (for me) that I can ship things to family members in Warren, MN and Grand Folks, ND and do relays too


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## DBanana

I live in subway serviced Toronto Matt, I have nocar and its a rwo hour trip.


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## DBanana

Sold 2 of my babies today at the CAOAC show, with five others with Catherine Salmon (which may or may not have sold since I had to leave early). Tried to sex them as best I could for the guy but made sure he knew that there were no guarantees.


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## DBanana

Photos. The ones that sold today were really the smaller of the bunch 

















They all have ventrals, some of them have them tucked up


































































I found Kink!


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## Bailmint

I need one! ;U;


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## DBanana

Feel free to drive on up, lol.


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## Bailmint

You know, I just might. xD


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## scififan523

...I'm not letting this go... and I'm researching Canada to US and vice versa aquarium fish shipping . CDC doesn't care, and I don't really see anything else besides Wildlife and Fish Services on this end. Checking with them, and will check with customs. I don't think an import or export license is needed!


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## Bailmint

I think the problem is shipping, not if they're going to allow it across the border or not.


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## scififan523

Customs becomes easier if an import/export license isn't needed. Then a trans-shipper isn't needed and it could be shipped directly to the address, as long as the customs form is filled out appropriately.


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## DBanana

If you figure it out I will send you a holdback. Lol.


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## DBanana

'Please contact Dr. Christa Speekmann at the USDA APHIS VS National Import and Export Services at 301-851-3300, Option 2, for more information.'

Sounds like someone I'm going to give a ring to during the week.


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## lilnaugrim

Bailmint, I've done the drive from RI to Canada and it was hell all 9 hours up and 9 hours down! We even stayed overnight in NY! Good luck with going and extra 8 hours up and 8 down from VA! lol

The spawn looks great DBanana!

Shipping over the border cannot be done without the proper liscence and it is a lot of money to be getting one. Much easier to find someone who lives on the border with a PO in the states and ship out from there. You can legally bring over one pet fish but we smuggled in I think it was 20 fish or so in the truck of the car lol. It was a super busy day crossing the Rainbow Bridge so I don't think they really wanted to search the car, besides we did go over mostly just to see the Niagara Falls anyway XD


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## Bailmint

Meh I'm flying to Canada in a little while probably so I could do that but the problem is my mom xD. I'm sure shipping fish from Canada to the US is possible though o-o. Idk :/


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## scififan523

A permit is not needed, but a declaration of import/export needs to be filled and the cargo needs to be inspected. According to the US Fish and Wildlife services.


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## lilnaugrim

You can't fly them over either. And you can't ship either way, US to Canada or Canada to US.


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## Bailmint

How come you can ship from Thailand to the US but not Canada to the US? o-o


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## lilnaugrim

Because they are shipping directly to a transshipper who has a license. But the laws in Canada and US are different and such. I know it sucks but that's the way it is.


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## DBanana

Well if any of these bubs are show-able this certainly limits their futures.


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## kellray

Want a female!


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## DBanana

So it looks like my little sister is driving up in June so if there is anyone in Baltimore that wants one...


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## Eponine

These guys are fantastic! And I live in canada too... Hmmm....


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## DBanana

All proceeds from the sale of these are going to the Canadian branch of the IBC to help with getting a show. Some holdbacks will be sold only at the show.


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## scififan523

... I'd be willing to pay for shipping from Balitmore... plus the cost of the fish


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## DBanana

My sister wouldnt be willing to ship a fish Im pretty sure. Plus theres the issue that its a day or two drive depending on her driving, added to she doesnt have any tanks to rebag the fish when she gets back to Baltimore.


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## scififan523

damn. worth a shot.


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## DBanana

I've got two 'pandas' where they have cellophane scaling in certain spots. One I'm rather fond of. 

























Other 'panda'










Red black holdback looking good

















Group shots









































Promising young male


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## Bailmint

I need. Pandas. Nomnomnom ;u;.


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## DBanana

We're planning a southern Ontario betta show as a co-show with another bunch sometime next year. If you aren't up to driving up anytime soon, you could always aim for that.


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## amphirion

pandas are awesome. i hope that they stay that way. i've got one kid of mine that has gone through complete redloss. looks like black lace but has marbling on the side, enough for it to pass as a female with vertical bars.


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## DBanana

I think I'm going to breed this pair again. I need decent spawn to get my spirits up!


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## DBanana

'King' the biggest of the babies got moved over to an empty space in the bachelor tank. He's got some bent rays so he's not a keeper, but he's also got some really nice purple iridescence going on in the right light. 

















Some of his room-mates

'I hate all my room-mates'









'I keep trying to kill King through the mesh'









'I just want to breed'









'One day I will kill you all'


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## beautiful Betta

That first pic it is a boy right, it's tummy looks massive, I don't know much about breeding betta's but he looks overfed to me from that shot, it looks uncomfortable to me.


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## Bailmint

Dude, that's how babies are xD. [< I think o-o]

And omg his roommates made me laugh so hard. <3


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## DBanana

First point: That photo was taken immediately after a feeding. They don't look like that 90% of the day. I take photos at that time because they've slowed down to eat. 

Second point: I put food in the grow out tank as dispersed over a larger area and staged over a period of about 15 minutes so that all the kiddos get some, even the little ones. Some of the kiddos eat more than they should regardless. I'll be able to control the consumption each one gets when it gets jarred (which is soon) but until then it happens occasionally that one gorges.


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## MattsBettas

Believe me, you don't breed without getting some fat babies. Nothing wrong with that, though, you can alter the diet so they thin out once separated; and they're eating healthier, easier to digest foods then most adult fish.


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## DBanana

Some last pictures of the kiddos before I start getting ready to jar and sell them. 










































Dame and Sire working on the next batch


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## Varmint

Wish I were in Canada so I could buy one. They are all gorgeous!


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## kellray

Hmmm , I wonder which one I'm getting...


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## DBanana

Going to try to sort out the jarring situation shortly, get the females all together in the sorority and get a bunch of pics for people to choose from. I think I really am going to limit how many females or males get sold together (parents are probably siblings, don't want to run too much inbreeding).


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## DBanana

Sad news. The dame, B, passed away today. I haven't a %@#[email protected]! clue what the issue was. She was swimming and eating, I came back into the room half an hour later and she was dead. 

This was, in the end, a unique spawn. The last spawning attempt produced no eggs.


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## kellray

sorry to hear :-(


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## TealHoundogg

So sorry you lost your female. That is strange she would pass like that unless she had some underlying issue.

Do you have any fry left?


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## DBanana

I do have a number left. A petstore downtown has spoken for any I have to spare, but I've still got about a dozen boys (mostly, not as many females in this one).


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## TealHoundogg

That's good, maybe you can try again with one of them, if you're able to get another female.

I don't know if this is the first time you've bred this particular female betta but I've read somewhere that first time mothers tend to have more sons than daughters. Though I could be wrong.


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## DBanana

This spawn was the first time I'd bred her, though I have no idea if she'd been breed in the past. She hardly got touched and the one caudal ray that did get torn off was fully replaced in two weeks. She had Wolverine healing factor going on. 

To be truthful, I like crown tails and I'd like to one day try to have a lovely Black Orchid DTCT, but its not my first desire at spawning. HM's are going to be my focus for the main part. If I can pass the offspring off to people I know are going to responsibly breed, like Kellray, then I'm happier than if I kept them myself and just sort of relegated them to back-burner status.


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## TealHoundogg

I understand. I saw a black orchid crowntail for the first time when I got Cole 2 months ago. Black orchids are beautiful bettas.

Hope it works out for you next time. Halfmoons are one of my favorites next to Deltas. Funny thing is Cole is a delta but he was labeled and sold as a halfmoon. Doesn't bother me, I love him so much.


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## DBanana

F2 is now going. Brother 'Trogdor' and Sister (Unnamed)


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## angella

The two betas in your first post are possibly the most gorgeous male and female I've ever seen :O 
Especially the female... I'd have a sorority of girls like that! 

Good luck with all your breeding


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## DBanana

Boy 1 ('Tribal')
'Reverse butterfly' pattern. Black edges with cellophane rays, black inner banding on fins against body. 









Video:
http://vid3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/Katsudoo/Aquarium/P7260001_zps82e60494.mp4

Boy 2 ("Black Orchid")
Black orchid base colour, takes after his father as the tips of some of his caudal rays are cellophane








http://vid3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/Katsudoo/Aquarium/P7010240_zpsad5f9222.mp4


...I can't resist updating on these. I love these babies.


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## amphirion

DBanana said:


> ...I can't resist updating on these. I love these babies.


nobody is stopping you. i am here to help! im here to enable you! ENABLE!
mooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar.


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## Bailmint

Gorgeous<3


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