# Rosetail cannot swim



## sillystorm28 (Apr 10, 2016)

Hello,

I have a rosetail betta, Radorite, which I bought quite some time ago and have talked about him before in regards of how to help make him comfortable (he *exists* on his leaf hammock) by providing resting places and whatnot but I saw a youtube video on 'fin grooming' which involved tranqing the fish and actually cutting the fins and though he did it unnecessarily, in the comment section someone said it helped their betta which couldn't swim. I am really uncomfortable with the thought of doing anything of the sort but what do you all think? I'll be honest in saying even if it could work that it is unlikely that I would actually do it since it would not only stress Radorite but stress me out even trying.

The thing is that he isn't a happy fish no matter what I do, his fins just make it impossible to swim properly. He doesn't even have the energy to bite his fins, and any swimming he does is very fast spurts followed by loooong recuperation time. I have to be careful feeding him since if I dont put the pellets close to his face he can't get it. I pity bought him since he had to jerk his whole body repeatedly just to turn in the small containers at the pet store. The same pet store ended up losing all their bettas in an overnight infection a month later (they set up a drip system with shared water) so at least I spared him that. His fins are so heavy he isn't able to control his buoyancy and he rarely leaves his leaf hammock. There was a time I felt so miserable for him I considered mercy killing with clove oil since it makes me so sad just thinking about it... so I try not to think about it.

Please tell me if I should just leave him be, attempt trimming his fins, or as they say 'put him out of his misery'. I don't feel I'm experienced enough to choose here. I've included pictures with multiple angles to show the ridiculous amount of finnage that he has.

At least my other betta, my marble delta, is very happy with his life


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## LittleMan (Jan 16, 2016)

First of all, I have to say what a gorgeous betta.
I too have a rosetail and he has massive heavy fins as well.

I have only a couple actual plants in the tank so he can move more freely as he turns.
Additionally, I will spend time at the tank where he is, meaning, I don't make him come up to the surface to see me. 

Ive also tilted the tank so he can see the betta next to him. Since doing that, he has seemed to be near the surface or at least mentally stimulated by the other betta
being nearby. Do you have another betta or something you can put near his tank that might fascinate him mentally? Could he be bored as well? 

I wouldn't have the heart to euthanize a creature unless there was no hope. Be creative, maybe place different things near him on a daily basis, a toy, a book, something to get his attention, never know, it might help.

Wish I was closer to you, Id take him off your hands. 
Good luck.


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## sillystorm28 (Apr 10, 2016)

He is a very skittish betta and will swim away from anything that moves near him, and his tank is right next door to my other betta's tank. I also made sure not to clutter the tank so he can have room to turn too... if it is him being bored Ill move the stuff around him so he has more of a view perhaps. I hope it'll perk him up a bit anyway  If he can't go to the view, I'll take the view to him!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

This may sound cruel but if he cant swim and you feel comfortable doing it then trim his fins down, I had a rosetail who had a very hard time swimming and after a trim he was a new fish again and much happier. 
Its not too hard to trim, all you need is a flat surface eg chopping board, sharp razor and paper towels. Put the fish on the board, cover his head/body with a wet paper towel (wet it with tank water) and in one swift chop take half his tail off. Put him back in his tank with salt and ial to prevent infection and keep an eye on him and his water quality and he should be good as gold. 
He may flinch when he feels it but its for his own good

Otherwise lower his water level so it just covers the heater so he doesnt need to struggle to get air and give him many plants to rest on, so all he really needs to do is raise his head to take some air.

Personally Id trim


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## fernielou (May 19, 2015)

I have been in your situation before but I have to say your betta has the biggest fins I have ever seen (even the dorsal fin is huge). You can just tell how unhappy they are, the jerky swimming and constant lounging reaffirm that. In your situation, I would consider the fin chop. For mine what I did was remove the filter, add plants, smaller container (about 2g) and lower the water line so that he could rest on this tower thing (it was like a rounded soft thing). I wonder if a betta log would help me since he loves the hammock?

I had a veil tail that tore fins and all that was needed was clean warm water to heal them, so I think if you get the clove oil and clean scissors it shouldn't be a huge infection risk.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

I agree. I would trim his fins. Follow the advice given by trilobite and he should be just fine!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh my that's a lot of fin! He really is gorgeous though! 

I agree on the trimming. It'll be difficult but it's for the best. I have a double feather tail boy who gets tired from lugging his fins around and hates open spaces, so I stuck a big piece of spider wood in the middle of the tank. Now he feels secure and has a choice of branches to rest on at any water level he chooses. It's a pain during cleaning though


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## altheora (Jul 23, 2016)

...Is this really a thing in this field? You guys are teaching each other to do--not just aseptic, but completely contaminated--surgery without anesthesia on fish? This strikes me as a horrible idea. Exotic vets CAN do actual anesthesia on fish and trim tails properly using sterile technique!

And, alternative to surgery, I'd think there would be other options besides cutting his fins. I'm clearly a newbie to this field, but... That seems a bit extreme before trying anything else? For example, what about changing up his home? Give him something bigger (10g), but only fill it halfway, effectively treating it like a 5g long. Give it smooth substrate so he isn't catching himself on the gravel and can rest on the sand/glass bottom, and maybe add in some little "chairs" since he seems to like sitting on things--hammocks and plants that won't make it too hard to swim. I like the idea of a betta log, too--the biggest you can find to accommodate his fins. Once he's settled in, then maybe start "exercising" him with mirrors, videos of bettas, and whatnot, increasing the time spent as he improves. The environment would be more conducive to resting after he's worked out a bit.

Sorry for the rant. I literally just didn't know that this was a thing. I could be completely wrong, but... eesh.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

I always thought of tail trimming the same way @*altheora* until I actually did it myself.

I have a rosetail doubletail and his fins are massive. The first 6 months I had him he was miserable, I finally cut off half his tail. He could act like a fish and was is so much more active and healthy. The only thing is to keep the water crystal clear to get rid of any possible infection. If you think about it a lot of betta fish bite their tails so it can't be too painful if they do it to themselves. A lot of rosetails/halfmoon bettas bite their tails so they can get around better.
It's obviously a personal opinion if people do it or not but it worked very well for me.

I hoped that kinda helped!


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## ChocoBetta (May 19, 2016)

If your betta struggles to swim, I'd say you might be sucessful with you give him a 10g and lower the water level like altheora said. Personally I think what could help is to NOT chop the tail unless you have to. It just doesnt sound like a safe idea to me, no offense. Please, dont do this, ask around veteranarians if there are any that help fish, ask experts, but dont chop the tail! Who knows what will happen!


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## altheora (Jul 23, 2016)

Large tails are artificial. That is, we bred for them. We bred it into them for aesthetics, not for the benefit of the fish--and it is not beneficial to the fish. Tail-biting is self mutilation. Trust me, animals can and will self-mutilate and it hurts. The fact that they do it to themselves does NOT make it ok for us to do it to them without pain control and do so in a manner that isn't sterile. 

Take cropping tails/ears. Breeders still, to this day, crop tails and ears in dogs without anesthesia, but the veterinary world has finally started putting its foot down about this. It hurts. We can prevent this pain, while at the same time working to prevent infections. ...Be a human and prevent it.

The vets that I feel comfortable working with actually prevent pain using multiple types of analgesia (pain relief). So they may be blocking the pain at the site of the pain itself, as well as in the nerves going to the brain to block pain signals from reaching the brain.

Yes, it's a fish. It'll hurt. He'll get over it. Alright, now go chop off your pinky toe in the kitchen. You'll get over it, too.

( ...And don't get me started on the idea that fish "don't feel pain". They do. They have nerves and nerve endings just like humans do. Anesthetics would not work if fish did not have a functioning nervous system. Some poorly done "study" went viral a few years back suggesting that fish do not feel pain. The scientific community and veterinary field as a whole agrees that fish feel pain. )


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## fernielou (May 19, 2015)

They actually are anesthetized. Clove oil does that...you just have to measure the right amount because it also can euthanize (just like really anesthesia, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing).


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

fernielou said:


> They actually are anesthetized. Clove oil does that...you just have to measure the right amount because it also can euthanize (just like really anesthesia, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing).


I forgot to mention this. Yes the fish are anesthetized with clove oil when you tail trim.

Fish do feel pain. 
Sure, tail trimming is extreme but it improves their quality of life. When I trimmed the tail of my DT he could swim and be a fish. Before that he would lay on the leaves close to the water surface all day because he couldn't swim properly. Quality of life is important.

Before I trimmed his tail he was doing it to himself. He was already tail biting so his caudal fin would weigh less.


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## ChocoBetta (May 19, 2016)

Anesthesia or not, what if something goes wrong, what then? There's always a chance for infections afterwards, or finrot...


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## ChocoBetta (May 19, 2016)

I know you all want Radorite to be happy, but I just dont think it's safe.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

There are always risks to everything. 
There should be no rot/infection if you keep the water clean and add some AQ salt.
They're much happier after the overly heavy fins have been trimmed and they can swim easily.
As long as the fins are not cut too close to the body, there are no blood vessels and no nerve endings, it is like clipping nails (yourself or other animal).


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## fernielou (May 19, 2015)

These aren't wild animals. Humans bred this so I don't think we can say "oh sorry this is how you're made." If the owner feels it is in the best interest I say they should do what they feel is best. After all nobody would want to do that for fun and if they did I would question them wanting to own a pet 


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## altheora (Jul 23, 2016)

I'm completely fine with tail trims if they're done properly. However, when I read "put them on a cutting board" or "use clean scissors" or "he'll flinch," I must disagree. Yes, I can very much see how tail trims would be worth it, but... let a veterinarian deal with that. It's surgery, which you are not licensed to do (unless you're a DVM). A vet would know the need for aftercare and would be able to prescribe pain medications and would likely also put the fish on specific antibiotics to prevent infection after the fact.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

A fish shouldn't flinch from pain when they are getting their tail trimmed that means you are cutting their nerves.

Tail trimming can be done properly. IMO the only "medication" needed is clean water, IAL, and Aq salt to get rid of infection. Unnecessary antibiotics are very hard on fish and can actually do a lot more harm then good.

I do agree with you tail trimming isn't something to be taken lightly. Only do it if you must.


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## ChocoBetta (May 19, 2016)

Well, if its for the greater good...atleast have a vet do it, or a professional, just to be safer.


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## NiceCrocs (May 14, 2016)

As you can see, tail trimming is a pretty big point of contention, even among experienced fish keepers.

At the end of the day, the only one who can make the decision is you.

It's a well-established fact that some long-finned betas have such long fins that it makes swimming difficult, and clearly, some cases are more extreme than others.

My opinion is that tail trimming is a perfectly viable option, but should be used only as a last resort, and only after VERY careful weighing of options, and RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH.

It's also important to rule out any other sickness or infection that might be causing lethargy. Many long-finned bettas are strong swimmers despite their finnage, but I admit that your boy has some of the longest i've ever seen!

If you decide that a trim is needed, and a qualified vet is not available (more on that in a moment...), You'll need to use clove oil (very carefully dosed) to anesthetize him, and clean cloths soaked in tank water to keep him wet while you work. You'll also need clean tools. If you can find a medical supply place you can buy sterile, disposable scalpels. If that's not possible, you can sterilize a regular razor. Look up the stories of others who have performed similar treatments and see what works and what doesn't.

Afterwards, you'll need to keep the water pristine and monitor very carefully for any complications.

If you are able to find a qualified veterinarian with a good history of working on aquatic animals, I urge you to consult with them, and have them perform the procedure if possible.

That said, it's extremely difficult to find a vet who is willing and able to work on fish. Heck, I live close to a big city and I'm still unable to find any vet who works on anything other than dogs or cats. The one vet I found that was even willing to LOOK at my hamster fully admitted to me that he knew almost nothing about small animals.

In my situation, I'm far more comfortable performing my own procedures and doing my own research on my small animals and fish, and shouldering the risks involved, than handing them over to a so-called "qualified" vet who might accidentally cause them further harm.

I hope this endless ramble made sense, haha, and that something works out for your little guy. he's really stunning


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## fernielou (May 19, 2015)

I love vets. I am so glad we have vets. But being for real, their bread and butter clientele is going to be dogs and cats. In rural areas you will see vets specialized in livestock. Most people aren't gonna pay enough for the vet care of small animals and fish to establish a practice, so how much time do you think they spend on that in vet school? 

I learned the hard way you have to teach yourself a lot when you keep pets. My vet is so smart and well respected in his profession on the state level. He has years of practice. I had an issue with one of my animals and I expressed my guess "diagnosis." He said it was just so rare there was no way. Well, I was actually right, and the dog had suffered and undergone expensive tests and invasive treatment to discover that. He was shocked. It may be rare in the general population, but not for my dog's breed. At that point I realized you have to educate yourself and partner with your vet (I LOVE HIM...STILL GO THERE!) and decide what is best for your pet by yourself and advocate for that. 

I agree on the fish meds. Clean water and salt I can deal with, but some of these things are so carcinogenic to humans I wouldn't work with them and then if it's bad for us wouldn't it be equally bad for a small animal that is bathing in and breathing that? Every thing you do can start a cascade of medical interventions and "just in case" meds are not a good idea.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

altheora said:


> ...Is this really a thing in this field? You guys are teaching each other to do--not just aseptic, but completely contaminated--surgery without anesthesia on fish? This strikes me as a horrible idea. Exotic vets CAN do actual anesthesia on fish and trim tails properly using sterile technique!
> 
> And, alternative to surgery, I'd think there would be other options besides cutting his fins. I'm clearly a newbie to this field, but... That seems a bit extreme before trying anything else? For example, what about changing up his home? Give him something bigger (10g), but only fill it halfway, effectively treating it like a 5g long. Give it smooth substrate so he isn't catching himself on the gravel and can rest on the sand/glass bottom, and maybe add in some little "chairs" since he seems to like sitting on things--hammocks and plants that won't make it too hard to swim. I like the idea of a betta log, too--the biggest you can find to accommodate his fins. Once he's settled in, then maybe start "exercising" him with mirrors, videos of bettas, and whatnot, increasing the time spent as he improves. The environment would be more conducive to resting after he's worked out a bit.
> 
> Sorry for the rant. I literally just didn't know that this was a thing. I could be completely wrong, but... eesh.


I trim fins when someone gets fin rot, it hurts for maybe 10 seconds I've removed fatty tumors from my goldfishs in the end saving their lives before they grow into the body. Even exotic vets may not touch fish, they also charge outrageous prices for such simple procedures many people can't afford it. It IS safe you just have to be careful and make sure everything is clean


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## sillystorm28 (Apr 10, 2016)

I come back to the thread and see that there are many conflicting recommendations, which I did somewhat expect due to the topic at hand. I definitely appreciate how you all are really trying to help Radorite  It gives me hope!
I won't look into the vets since not only do I live in a rural area but will not be able to afford the bill. On the other hand, I am actually a 3rd year med science student and am VERY aware of sterilisation and sanitary methods! I can assure you all that should the last resort come to hand, I will ensure all I work with is sterile. I have experience in using scalpels and doing dissections, and have a sure and steady hand. So at the very least none of you need to worry in that regard  (I do understand the difference between vets and doctors but sanitation and sterilisation is universal)
For now, I will try stimulating him and giving him more resting areas. Since his tank is filtered (at the weakest strength as to not cause a current) I won't be able to lower the water level in his tank. I feel he doesn't have an issue in regards to feeling safe, and I also believe that adding more to the tank will cause his fins to be a further hindrance. I am reluctant to trim his fins until I've exhausted all options available to me. 
I do know how to do the trimming thanks to the video that was on youtube (which I won't link as it truly was an unnecessary trimming and is difficult to watch), as well as what dilution is required to anaesthetise. I will see if any vets have the mix, otherwise I'll look for a recipe online. I do feel that I will eventually need to do this so I'll begin working myself up to it. He truly would be much happier swimming freely, especially since he'll probably be an excellent swimmer after all the lugging around  It's like if we were to go swimming in a deep pool while wearing the prettiest, long ruffled dress... looking good sure, but being very, very exhausted.
I'll keep you all updated, and if I make another separate thread on the actual trimming, I'll leave a link here to it, but I doubt it will happen for at least a month, just to be sure.
Thanks again for all the support!


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## KeshiaB (Aug 27, 2013)

Poor guy. Would it be possible to somehow affix a layer of craft mesh or something similar just under the water line so that it supports his weight but still lets water flow through? It could cover most of or even just half the area of the tank. Might be a crazy idea but if it's plausible you could add in some floating/surface plants to give him shade and hiding spots. 

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## KeshiaB (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm thinking something like a breeder box but without the walls

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## sillystorm28 (Apr 10, 2016)

I was thinking of buying another leaf hammock in a different spot so he has two different places to choose from... as for a mesh thing, I think it would confuse him while also stopping him from getting air if he was underneath it so I won't be doing that. As for more plants I might get a broad leafed plant which isnt too dense so there are resting spots at different levels  I'm definitely thinking of things and the recommendations are giving me heaps of ideas so thats awesome  thanks!


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## KeshiaB (Aug 27, 2013)

Oh I meant he would be on top of the mesh. Another option could be a floating betta log or floating pipe that he could rest in. More leaf hammocks wouldn't hurt either.

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## KeshiaB (Aug 27, 2013)

Something like this, you'd just have to find a way to secure the mesh...









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## KeshiaB (Aug 27, 2013)

Oops I missed the r in waterline!

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## sillystorm28 (Apr 10, 2016)

Ooooh! I get it now xD I thought you meant like only half the tank has the mesh whoops... I'll keep an eye out for another tank and think of ways I can make that work  I could get some fake plant leaves and attach that to the mesh to make it look like a forest floor with the floating plants on the top! I could also get creative with the unused space in the lower section by making it look like a hidden lake or something (ooooh what if I have a light source coming from the bottom?? it would light up the leaves on the mesh and give heaps of depth to the tank)!!! Cleaning would be so much easier too... The filter I have is great since I can shorten the length of the filter tube as well  This sounds so awesome!! And to think at the start of this thread I had no idea what to do, now there are so many ideas  thanks for your help!


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Or get a bunch of hornwort and make a Forest with 2 pieces of craft mesh, I did this with my baby guppies and it works great! You feed the stems through the holes and treat it almost like a moss wall


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## fernielou (May 19, 2015)

Airline suction cups could secure the mesh ledge - Google Java moss ledge  and just do bigger 


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## Picasso84 (Feb 11, 2013)

How has the little guy been doing? I hope he has been happier! I can tell how much you care about him, and he's lucky that you're a med student & can do the 'extreme' properly & safely. Not sure I could do that myself, I'd be too worried I'd mess up & cause more harm, but I'm not a medical prof. or student... I'm sure he is in good hands with you! &#55357;&#56887;


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## sillystorm28 (Apr 10, 2016)

Hello!

I have been so busy with my studies this term I havent come back to let you all know whats been happening! I have gotten a new tank which is slightly smaller but more appropriate for him  Its a short but wide tank which lets him easily swim around top and bottom while being able to hide or swim wherever with minimal effort! The cycling took a long time and I will have more upkeep as its unfiltered but he does seem rather happier  I have seen him resting all over the tank at different places instead of the same corner he was *always* at in his last tank, and due to the tank being slightly smaller (as well as sturdier) I can move him around if I feel he is getting bored (I also rearranged everything on the desk so he has more stuff to look at). He has only just moved in yesterday (as I finally had a moment to actually move him after being so busy) and as I type I'm watching him swim around and being more active than he ever was! I'm so happy I didnt have to do the more extreme method  

Its rather funny how I have two bettas which are complete opposites with different traits and personalities as they have vastly different requirements; my rosetail needing a short wide tank with no filter and plenty of resting places, whereas my delta-tailed hyperactive betta needed a very large tank with heaps of hidey places and such to explore since he has sooo much energy xD


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

That's amazing to hear ^^


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## Picasso84 (Feb 11, 2013)

So glad to hear it!


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## LittleMan (Jan 16, 2016)

I'm glad to hear he is doing better; the thought of a "snip" really weirded me out and would have resorted
to trying to create different layers & heights of things in the tank to rest on wherever he may be. 
I have a rosetail with a massively thick tail and he folds almost in half to turn around; I keep things easy for him and he still
seems very sociable, alert & interested in all the activities in the room. I don't believe for a minuet he is suffering.


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