# set up my first sorority and after 10 mins together it has gone all down hill :(



## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

I have 3 female bettas ( i know MOST say 4, but also A LOT have said 3 is fine) and for the first 10 mins or so all was well. But now, one is chasing the other 2 and wont leave them alone!  what do i do? I don't have a suitable housing arrangement for the bully  This stinks.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Really? Who has told you three? I usually hear four is the "absolute" minimum. Right now, either seperate them immediately, or buy more female bettas. What size is the tank? If you buy more bettas, try buying two. It may crowd the tank (depending on size), however the aggression is more important at this point if you're not willing to seperate them. More frequent water changes may be needed, be it only one more time a week. Hopefully it ends well though, usually sororities are tricky!


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

wow i have quickly learned that this forum has some contradictions. I have read on THIS very forum that 3-4 in a 10gal ( which i have) is fine. I NEVER said i was not willing, wow. I said, i do not have another suitable housing setup at the moment. i CANT move them anywhere. That's why i asked what to do 



xxabc said:


> Really? Who has told you three? I usually hear four is the "absolute" minimum. Right now, either seperate them immediately, or buy more female bettas. What size is the tank? If you buy more bettas, try buying two. It may crowd the tank (depending on size), however the aggression is more important at this point if you're not willing to seperate them. More frequent water changes may be needed, be it only one more time a week. Hopefully it ends well though, usually sororities are tricky!


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Please don't take everything straight to heart, no one is being intentionally mean and it makes things harder 

This is a thread from this forum: 
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-fish-care/female-betta-sororities-29402/

"*Number of females-* Females can be as aggressive as males. The more females you have spreads out the aggression. It is not a good idea to have only two females together as this will cause one to beat up on the other and it could result in the death of one or both of the females. *It is also not recommended to have less than 4 females. Six or more is better. Be careful not to overstock your tank. "*

And I also have not been following your threads, nor following you around, so I wasn't aware on your tank size, or your situation, so I still had to ask anyways. A 10 gallon can definitely house more female bettas. I would push the limit a little, and try to go for 5. Maybe 6 if you're up for it. And I never said you weren't willing - I was just saying that sororities intimidate me a little, as females CAN be aggressive as males.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

hmm..well sadly, i will not be able to purchase anymore until tomorrow evening the earliest. Will the current 3 last? and thank you



xxabc said:


> Please don't take everything straight to heart, no one is being intentionally mean and it makes things harder
> 
> This is a thread from this forum:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-fish-care/female-betta-sororities-29402/
> ...


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

the bully has settled down finally. One girl is hiding in the castle and another girl is chilling by a plant and the bully is just swimming around. Is this a good sign? or the quite before the storm?


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

I can't say if they'll be okay or not. It can be better, it can be worse, who knows? It all depends on the bettas. And sadly, that's not a good sign at all - we don't want a female hiding under the castle stressed. Her life won't be very nice. Please check for *stress stripes*, horizontal lines. The stress stripes mean what they say - that the female is stressed.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

ugh.. i was told on THIS forum to put hiding places in the tank for the girls and i did just that. The fish could simply by chilling in their. She is exploring now, but who knows. But i will get a couple more asap



xxabc said:


> I can't say if they'll be okay or not. It can be better, it can be worse, who knows? It all depends on the bettas. And sadly, that's not a good sign at all - we don't want a female hiding under the castle stressed. Her life won't be very nice. Please check for *stress stripes*, horizontal lines. The stress stripes mean what they say - that the female is stressed.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

correction, i READ on this forum to put hiding places and plants


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Could I see a picture? By hiding places and plants, it's usually best to "crowd" them as well. Bettas like a _lot_ of hiding places and such, so crowding plants is good as well. However, look for stress stripes - if they're visible (horizontal lines), then we'll know she's not simply chilling there, but rather hiding. But hopefully she really is just chilling there. 

Hopefully someone else comes and helps, I have to go!


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

their are no stripes... stripes can form that FAST? and not able to take pix at the moment, but my plants are not crowded haha i need to fix that



xxabc said:


> Could I see a picture? By hiding places and plants, it's usually best to "crowd" them as well. Bettas like a _lot_ of hiding places and such, so crowding plants is good as well. However, look for stress stripes - if they're visible (horizontal lines), then we'll know she's not simply chilling there, but rather hiding. But hopefully she really is just chilling there.
> 
> Hopefully someone else comes and helps, I have to go!


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

all 3 are now swimming around and looking very happy =] i think the Hierarchy is being formed... that yes, i have READ about on this very forum when 3 females are put together.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't keep females myself, so I'm not sure how "fast" they can occur, but I'm gonna GUESS fast? But it's only a guess. Usually more crowded also leads to more successful. I still honestly feel 3 is dangerous, but if it works out, good for you. I would still recommend more JUST to be on the safe side, since when tehre is more, less agression is pointed to each other. Good luck~


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

2 of my girls ate, but the 3rd did not. How do i know if all three eat when i toss in the food? I do not want a build up on uneaten food at the bottom haha. Anything i can do to make sure all 3 girls eat?



xxabc said:


> I don't keep females myself, so I'm not sure how "fast" they can occur, but I'm gonna GUESS fast? But it's only a guess. Usually more crowded also leads to more successful. I still honestly feel 3 is dangerous, but if it works out, good for you. I would still recommend more JUST to be on the safe side, since when tehre is more, less agression is pointed to each other. Good luck~


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

The problem with just 3 females is that 2 can gang up on the third one and harrass her to death. Make sure that they have plenty of hiding places.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

they do... the problem is not 2 vs 1... it is 1 vs 2 and the 2 are losing 



dramaqueen said:


> The problem with just 3 females is that 2 can gang up on the third one and harrass her to death. Make sure that they have plenty of hiding places.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

lol! Well, like you said, their hierarchy is probably being formed. Hopefully they'll settle down soon.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

i really hope so.. they losing 2 are hiding and breathing hard  while the bully is swimming freely and happy looking :evil:



dramaqueen said:


> lol! Well, like you said, their hierarchy is probably being formed. Hopefully they'll settle down soon.


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## Jupiter (Aug 30, 2009)

There is a sticky on sororities at the top of this forum that's very helpful. I'm just going to outline everything for you from my experience:

You need at least 10 gallons, which you seem ot have covered.

You need at least 4 females. I don't know who told you 3, but you can keep 4-6 females in a 10 gallon. I kept 7, but I do NOT recommend this as it overcrowds the tank.
The reason you need at least 4 is this: 2 females will just pick on each other endlessly. With 3 females, 2 will gang up against 1 usually. With 4 females, they tend to even out the aggression. I have heard that odd numbers are better, so try for 5 females if you can.

You need a lot of plants and hiding spaces! I'd say at least 1 plant per female, and a few hiding spaces. Big, leafy plants are better. 

During the first few days, there will be a lot of chasing, fin nipping, and aggression as they set up their heirarchy. Your females will probably have stress stripes (black horizontal stripes along the body). They should settle down within a few days to a week. Some nipped fins are okay, but if you think the females look really injured or tattered, you should remove her. 
If one of your bettas is really aggressive, you can give her a 'time out', lol. Get a breeding box and put the female in there for a day or two, and then re-release her. 
Another trick when you're introducing new girls is to re-arrange their tank. They'll take time to re-establish their territories.

One thing that really helped me is aquarium salt! It's great to put a little in the tank to help the fish's immune systems, and it heals fins up nicely too!

Hope this helped.


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## truthequalslies (Jan 21, 2010)

well if they need to be seperated it wont hurt to just float them in their cups till you get another one or two but only if its just for one day that way theyll be in their heated tank


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## Herbicide (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't know anything about sororities, but I can say that stress stripes show up very quickly. Like it would only take about a minute.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

Thank you eveyone for all this info/support 

UPDATE: when I went to feed the Girls this morning and the bully and one victim came up and ate together with no problems  but the other victim would not even leave her plant to get food and I couldn't wait I Had to go to work so she went without  I feel awful. She has no stress lines or any fin damage. Is she going to be ok?  I'm getting a 4th this evening, but that's the earliest I can get a 4th


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bump. Sorry I really need an answer to my update


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## ClassicCharm (Jan 17, 2010)

I was told that when you first put your sorority together, don't bother even trying to feed for a few days. They're all super stressed from travel, gaining a lot of space, meeting others, and forming the hierarchy. Let them settle and be comfortable before trying to feed or they'll end up with problems.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

Ok.well I'm def. Getting a 4th this evening. Thank you for the help


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## ClassicCharm (Jan 17, 2010)

I've got three in mine right now as well am having the same prob, though they're new to each other still. I would be getting a fourth but the place I usually get them was supplied with a bad batch. I bought two four days ago and both of them died, and they've had at least three more die there. Bad business, so my girls are just going to have to work it out for a bit.


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

They can go two weeks without food but I hope when things even out she'll pop out to eat. Maybe she's just shy. Some of them are. Whiskey didn't eat for the first 2 or 3 days I had him home.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

She was bullied alot  I hope she is not tramatized and dies on me.


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## mysquishy (Mar 12, 2010)

Aww... good luck with them. I hope things work out and they all get along and be happy.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

That's what will happen when there are 3. Two will gang up on the third. I think getting a 4th female should help.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

well like i said a couple of different times.. i had ONE going after the other TWO =]

UPDATE: I recently added a 4th and the girls seem to have toned it down and are swimming freely and the main bully is not chasing around the others anymore. The one victim that would not come out from her hidey place is now out and being social! Life seems to be well in the girls house




dramaqueen said:


> That's what will happen when there are 3. Two will gang up on the third. I think getting a 4th female should help.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

WuGolfer07 said:


> well like i said a couple of different times.. i had ONE going after the other TWO =]


Yes, but that could change very, very quickly, with the result of that poor girl being torn to shreds. On the other hand, it's great to hear that everything is now going well. With the new addition, hopefully the bully won't be able to single any one out. Keep in mind that over the next few days there WILL be fights, but you have to either weather it out, or take them all out for good. It doesn't do any of them good to be taken out, placed back in, taken out (not that I'm saying you're doing this, just remember to hold firm and hope for the best). However, if it gets REALLY bad, you might want to take out the one that's doing the worst bullying.
Good luck, and I hope everything works out! Sororities are hard to start, but the beautiful mixture of colors and personalities makes them well-worth it in the end.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

i NEVER said that one victim was "torn to shreds" their has been ZERO biting and tearing of fins. Just chasing around the tank. The 1 bully actually swims and eats with the others with no problem and the new girl is fitting in well. I have not taken any of them out either, not sure where you got that from either haha thank you though. I am being positive that this will work out =]



CodeRed said:


> Yes, but that could change very, very quickly, with the result of that poor girl being torn to shreds. On the other hand, it's great to hear that everything is now going well. With the new addition, hopefully the bully won't be able to single any one out. Keep in mind that over the next few days there WILL be fights, but you have to either weather it out, or take them all out for good. It doesn't do any of them good to be taken out, placed back in, taken out (not that I'm saying you're doing this, just remember to hold firm and hope for the best). However, if it gets REALLY bad, you might want to take out the one that's doing the worst bullying.
> Good luck, and I hope everything works out! Sororities are hard to start, but the beautiful mixture of colors and personalities makes them well-worth it in the end.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

WuGolfer07 said:


> i NEVER said that one victim was "torn to shreds" their has been ZERO biting and tearing of fins. Just chasing around the tank. The 1 bully actually swims and eats with the others with no problem and the new girl is fitting in well. I have not taken any of them out either, not sure where you got that from either haha thank you though. I am being positive that this will work out =]


Aiia, I never said that they were being torn to shreds, just that it could happen if only three fish had remained in the tank. Females bettas can be JUST AS if not MORE aggressive than males, but most are not. You can never, ever predict how an animal will act, and one day your "bully" could be a bit more aggressive than normal and kill one of your other girls. NOW, since you have four fish now, that is far less likely, so we'll leave this topic behind us. The other part, the taking in and taking out, I already said you weren't doing. I was just reminding you that even if it does get pretty bad, you shouldn't take them out right away. Let it go until it gets very bad, and then take them out if you must. If you take them apart at the smallest sign of shredded fins then they'll never establish their hierarchy, and nothing will work out.
I'm NOT trying to be critical or patronizing, I'm just reminding you. Please, please take it as such. I didn't mean anything by what I wrote, just issuing a little helpful hint. ( I come from another forum where a post like this will start a war, which I seriously hope it will not here  This was made with no intention of patronizing.)


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

it's fine =]


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

Thank goodness x3 The forum I just came from loves to tear people apart. It's become a natural reflex to assume you're going to be ripped limb from limb D:


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think adding the extra girl has helped to spread out the aggression. I used to belong to a forum that seemed to enjoy ripping people apart. That's why I quit. There is no need to act like that.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

MOST...if not 99.9% of ALL forums are like that... ESPECIALLY pet forums. A lot of ppl see their pets, even betta fish as their kids and when they read/hear something that goes against their PERSONAL preferences and beliefs, it strikes a nerve and they can come across in a harsh way without even trying to. I have already noticed that in this forum. A LOT of ppl are very, very sensitive about betta fish care and will pounce on someone when they get the chance if their own PERSONAL standards are not met.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

as have i. But when ppl make it sound like i am bad betta fish care taker, i will stand my ground. Especially when MOST of what i do to take care of my bettas, i got from threads in THIS forum. Just saying =] and yes adding the fourth has calmed things down.



dramaqueen said:


> I think adding the extra girl has helped to spread out the aggression. I used to belong to a forum that seemed to enjoy ripping people apart. That's why I quit. There is no need to act like that.


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

You should see the forum I frequent from time to time (corn snake forum). There were 416 some reply (about 42 pages) of people ripping apart a corn snake owner for refusing to believe that their snake wasn't special. Granted, after a little bit it was ripping apart another woman who insisted on cussing out almost all of the more senior members of the forum, but it was still a bloodbath.

And then the owner wanted to start another thread, to see if anyone else had different opinions. :roll:

Snake owners really have to be defensive about their pets since they're constantly under fire by the media. Still, it's no excuse for some of the arguments that go on in that forum.

Sorry for the thread jack x3 While this forum has a few tense moments, they're usually smoothed over quickly and with little blood-drawn.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I try very hard not to make people think it's my way or the highway. I don't believe that there is any "one" way to do something. What works for one person may not work for someone else. Because we are communicating with text and not face to face, it may be hard to judge whether or not someone is being rude or hateful and sometimes there can be misunderstandings. . I think most of us are pretty passionate about our bettas and sometimes it seems like we come on a bit too strong. People come here for advice and we need to be careful how we word things.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

UPDATE: all is well in the betta betta betta house haha The girls are getting along wonderfully. I just feed em and they all came up together and ate/played nice =] then i let them settle down and did the 50% water change and they are loving life right now =] Looks like i got 4 girls that sure know how to work out their differences and coexsist =].. One of the girls is small, like half the size of the other 3. Now i need to break down her food, problem is when i drop the food in, it's fair game haha. Should i just break it down for everyone so the lil one gets to eat also? I would try flakes, but i have never owned a betta that actually like em haha. My experience, they look at it and swim away haha


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that they are doing well. I would break up the food for all of them to make sure the little one gets something to eat, too.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

ya, looks like that's what i need to do. The other 3 fatties will have to deal lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

lol! Yeah, they'll just have to get over it.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

should i maybe add a 5th, another smaller one to help out that other smaller one?


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Hmm maybe a smaller one may just add trouble? Since you already have trouble with your current? IMO I would get a regular adult


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

Go to "User CP" on the bar at the top of the page (might take some looking around, it's all the same color!), click on it, go to the sidebar and look for "Edit Avatar", which is your picture, and "Edit Signature", which is the info on the bottom of every post. A bit of goofing around will be required to make everything hunky dory, but it'll look good when you're done


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

hmmm...well should i even get a 5th? I mean the war has seem to have come to an end haha and thank you for the help with user settings =]


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

No problem 

I'd say that as long as all is well in the sorority, a fifth girl isn't needed. If things start getting a bit frisky, then you might consider it, but for now it seems like everyone has calmed down.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Sororities always seem to be a gamble. It's usually best to add them all in at one time, but I don't know about adding a fifth. More does equal better, but...again, not sure.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

I'll stick with 4 and figure out to make sure my littlest girl does not go without =[


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

BTW I also backup the breeder-box idea. Good luck with her, hopefully she stays strong!


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

well i would like to try that, however.. wouldnt pulling her in and out every time to feed her cause stress? i mean i do not have time to make sure the water temps match from the main tank to the cup or w/e and also taking her in and out would stress her right, or wrong? i dunno, i just do not want to have to remove her every time i need to feed her. i just think chasing her around with a net, will not only be hard, but will stress the poor thing =[


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Hm? She won't be removed from the tank at all, actually

A breeder's nest sits inside the tank. You just have to -cup her inside (it may be hard so try not to chase her around), and once she's in, attach it to the wall of the tank. It'll probably be tricky though. Yes, it may be stressful, however they do get used to things pretty fast (it seems to me, anyway), so the worst of it will probably be the first few days or so.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

hmm never heard of that. will have to look into it =] oh i keep seeing this term "fry" what is a fry?


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## ScuitoAmi150 (Nov 19, 2009)

When I started my sorority I had the same problems! I put the bully into a cup and floated the cup in the tank for a couple of hours then put her back in. It worked for me! Three out of four of mine had a turn in the cup.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

i do not have a bully haha i have a littler one that is not getting a chance to eat, b/c the bigger ones are getting the food quicker


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## ScuitoAmi150 (Nov 19, 2009)

WuGolfer07 said:


> i do not have a bully haha i have a littler one that is not getting a chance to eat, b/c the bigger ones are getting the food quicker


Also had the that problem.
I fed my big girls pellets and the little girl flakes. It took the big girls a while to figure out how to eat the flakes and eventually Zetta (little girl) started being more assertive about getting food.


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## Jupiter (Aug 30, 2009)

Fry is what you call baby fish. Like how a baby cat is a kitten, a baby cow is called a calf, etc.

This is a breeder's box:

The male is on the inside of the box, which is attached to the side of the aquarium.


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## ClassicCharm (Jan 17, 2010)

Okay guys, I'm having the same issues with my sorority. There's only three in there right now (I know, I know, but there's a good reason for it. It'll be fixed asap), and one is bullying the other two. I tried removing her, but once she's gone, the second picks on the third (but doesn't when the first is there). I'm concerned about the health of the third one (has to do with why I only have three) as she's smaller and I've noticed that she has grey lines running cranial to caudal. Her body is dark blue, and I haven't had her long so I don't know if that's normal for her, or if these are stress lines. I won't be able to get a fourth in the bowl until at least tomorrow and the chasing has been happening for the past two days. What do you think?


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

I'd say take them all out for now, since they're having obvious problems. Maybe keep them in some smaller containers until you can get a fourth? Rearrange the tank a bit, then add all four back together when you get the fourth one.
This is a ten gallon tank, right? Anything less would be impossible for a sorority.
I'm sure you know that, but I don't want to assume anything here.


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## ClassicCharm (Jan 17, 2010)

Don't worry Code Red, I know better than to stick my neck under the axe around here by putting them in anything less. 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking I would do, but unfortunately I don't have enough small bowls around. They'd have to go into something pretty small.


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## ClassicCharm (Jan 17, 2010)

Okay, I found decent sized bowls for them. The three are separated, the grey lines are gone, and all three have eaten. Thanks CodeRed!


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Just a tip, crowd the tank with as many plants as possible  And I mean CROWD. Lol. (Hiding places, resting places, etc).


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

that is what i do not get. we can "crowd" a tank with a bunch of plants and hidey places, which essentially takes away A LOT of swimming room for the bettas. With that said. Why is it taboo to have a lot of bettas, but its fine to crowd a tank with plants and accessories? I know a lot of ppl disagree with this, But i have been to Thailand, and wild bettas have FAR less room in their natural habitats than what we bless em with. FAR far far far less room. I know this is fact, b/c i have seen it in person in the wild.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Really? That's so weird, I've been to Vietnam (the areas with bettas) really often, and it's sooooo spacious...the bettas have very nice room. 

The plants do not really "take space" away from the tank. They're not like solid objects where you must avoid it. They are plants - and believe it or not, they're interactive. The bettas swim through them (<-- why they're not bad), they rest in them, they bring sense of security, and it's "fun." My bettas always swim through, swim around, and sleep in their tank. It's really pretty ~ But I get where you're coming at.

And the taboo with "a lot of bettas" is the bioload. Too much poop = too much ammonia = you can never cycle = much easier deaths. Etc, etc, etc.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

i wild ones i saw, had no more room than they would have in a 1gal, if that haha, different country/part of the world. thank you though


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

Because plants and decor don't pee or poop every day, which is what creates ammonia in your tank. The more fish you have, the more pee and poo you have, the more ammonia you have, and ammonia is poison to fish. It's a matter of diluting your fish waste. That's why they have guidelines on how many fish you can have in a tank. It's not about space, it's about water chemistry. 

Cycled tanks have bacteria that eat that ammonia and turn it into something that's not as harmful but still needs to be removed (hence water changes). But there's only so much bacteria that can live in a given space. If you have too many fish and not enough bacteria your fish will drown in their own waste.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Honestly, I'm not surprised, since it IS different parts of the world, haha. Guess it really is that different then. I'm going to Thailand within the year, so I'm going to go betta hunting! Lol, my cousins in Vietnam live close to a "betta farm"... not really a farm, but theres a bunch of large large large rice paddies, and they always go off and mess with the bettas, haha.

And yup to Vaygirl.


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## WuGolfer07 (Mar 23, 2010)

UPDATE: the girls are STILL getting along beautifully and are evening playing, swimming, and eating together! It is AWESOME and a wonderful site to see!!


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## Jupiter (Aug 30, 2009)

Sororities are really great once they get going. good to hear your girls are doing well.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Man, I'm so tempted so get a sorority actually. Not sure, though.


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