# Curious About These Crosses



## Goldmoon (May 4, 2021)

Hello everyone!
I was interested in trying to cross my male betta with a female of a different color type. The male is a tiger koi (he’s the one in my profile pic). One of the females is a red Cambodian (I read that the Cambodian gene is recessive, so I’d assume this cross would result in mostly kois/marbles? Or would there be a mix of Cambodians and kois? Or would all the fry just be “mutts”?). The second female is a black orchid betta. I have been reading up a lot on betta genes recently, but I’m having trouble finding information on koi (specifically tiger koi) and black orchid genes. So I was wondering if anyone here knew what these crosses would produce (and if it is worth trying to get fry in the first place). I obviously won’t breed them unless I know the fry will be desirable/can easily be sold. Mostly, I am just curious about what the outcome would be. (And if it sounds like I could get “pretty” fry with one of these females, I might just try it out!) Thank you in advance!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Cambodian is recessive in the sense that you will lose the cabodian pattern and against other base colors. In the least, cambodians will produce red fins. I'm not sure what you're asking about the orchid.

To be honest, I stay away from marbles, msinly because luck plays too big a role (IMO). The following is based on discussions. 

Mutated marble, in this case koi, does not necessarily breed true or may jump a generation. It may either create fancies or celophane, depending on genetic background.

Celophane based marbles may produce more dominantly celophane body (very little colored patches). Example; red koi x red may produce cellophane until the 3rd generation. 

Since cambodian has cellophane body, logically speaking, if crossed to koi, may produce more cellophane than anything. However, the koi's background will also influence outcome - if the koi came from a line that produces dark colored fancies, you might get colored outcome (pattern is unpredictable).


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## Goldmoon (May 4, 2021)

indjo said:


> Cambodian is recessive in the sense that you will lose the cabodian pattern and against other base colors. In the least, cambodians will produce red fins. I'm not sure what you're asking about the orchid.
> 
> Mutated marble, in this case


Thank you, and in terms of the black orchid I was just curious about what the outcome would be if I crossed her with the tiger koi betta. (I.e. would the babies be mostly koi, mostly black orchid, evenly mixed or just “mutts”?)

In terms of crossing the Cambodian with the koi, do you mean that the fry will show the tiger koi phenotype, but will carry the Cambodian genes? Or would the red with the Cambodian interfere with the colors of the tiger koi (is that what you mean by “mutated marble”?) Sorry for all the questions, I’m just trying to figure out if these pairings would be worth trying.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Marble genes jumps colors. In regular marbles, usually fry start colored, then change to cello, and later back to colored (usually back to it's original color). So people used to name them as; copper marble, red marble, etc.

By mutated marbles, I mean the genes create new patterns instead. Eg. Red marble; instead of red - cello - red, it changes into, say, koi or other patterns.

According to friends who work with marbles, it is best to breed similar patterned marbles to ensure the pattern. If crossed to solid colors, you MIGHT lose the desired mutation.
. . . . . . . 
Koi x cambodian might produce colorless fish - or cellophane

Marbles are unpredictable UNLESS they came from generations of such patterns. But when crossed to solids, they may become unpredictable again. Luck plays a big role when crossing marbles.

*** the marble gene it self is dominant and will remain for generations, though crossed to non marbles.


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## Goldmoon (May 4, 2021)

indjo said:


> Marble genes jumps colors. In regular marbles, usually fry start colored, then change to cello, and later back to colored (usually back to it's original color). So people used to name them as; copper marble, red marble, etc.
> 
> By mutated marbles, I mean the genes create new patterns instead. Eg. Red marble; instead of red - cello - red, it changes into, say, koi or other patterns.
> 
> ...


Oh I see what you mean now. Thank you so much, this helps out a lot!!


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