# Can't seem to keep white clouds



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

Hi everyone

I have a cycled 21L tank with Barry (male CT) and four... no, 3, no, 2... white clouds.

Barry seems to keep pretty much to himself, occasionally bothering the white clouds. However, the poor things keep dying!

The lady at the fish store (the more I get to know her the more I don't like her - she treats me like I'm a complete imbocile) says that the water gets too hot for them and asked me "who told you that white clouds are a good fish for bettas? They are cold water fish!" (and then, after she gives me the 'I know so much more about fish than you' look proceeds to put the water from my tank where the whiteclouds died into the tanks with her live plants, and in another tank with a betta with fin melt and velvet - but noooo, I don't know anything about fish keeping)

So, rant aside, and I'm not ignoring her experience in fish keeping, are white clouds a cooler breed of fish?

I unfortunately live in a climate that looks like it will end up putting the water temperature above what is tolerable for a betta (I tried cooling the water down by doing a water change but it came out hotter from the tap than was in the fish tank - any ideas?)

I'm not going to buy any more white clouds due to the fact I have lost at least four in two weeks (poor Franks - they were doing so well).

Everything else seems fine (water parameters are good with the exception of the temperature - but still within the betta's range), and Barry has no outward appearance of diseases so I'm not stressed about that.

So, to sum up

1. Do white clouds tolerate the warmer temperatures of a tank?
2. How do I get the temperature of a water change down if the water is coming out of the tap hotter than it should be?
3. Is there a "cooler" that is suitable for bettas? It's not even too far into the beginning of summer here and already the ambient temperature is pushing the water up too high.
4. Should I be concerned about diseases since only the white clouds were affected?

Thanks.

Meredith.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I may have missed it, but how hot exactly is your tank getting? 

WCMM are fish that prefer cooler water, cooler than a betta would be comfortable with. They can survive in warmer water but it will shorten their lifespan. 

Also, I think a group of WCMM are too active for a 21L tank. They are schooling fish who like space to move about freely and a 21L tank does not really offer them that space. I would be looking at about double that before I even considered keeping them.


----------



## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ah, definitely a coldwater fish. I don't even put a heater in the tank; mine colored up better at lower temps


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

+1 ^ ^

You can cool water by blowing a fan over the water's surface. Those little clip-on fans than can run on batteries or plugged in work. A lot of people who have shrimp have a problem with temps being too high, too. They use "chillers" or fans.

Here's a DIY:
? How to cool an aquarium 10 DEGREES! for under $20 DIY - YouTube


----------



## farmgirl82 (Jul 30, 2014)

Definitely a cool water fish. Its been a long time since I had them but I'm pretty sure they were happiest around 68-70°. I didnt use a heater & kept them in a single species tank with some snails....
Unfortunately it does not sound like your current tank set-up is suitable for them. You might have to try a different companion for your betta. 
It would be beneficial in the future to do some research on the fish you wish to purchase before you actually purchase them. It would save you time, money & frustration.


----------



## kittenfish (Dec 1, 2013)

They prefer cooler temps but they adapt well. I've seen them kept with bettas in a very knowledgeable lfs. I would not keep them in a tank that gets too hot for a betta, but 76 degrees or so could work. Rather than trying to cool your water, I would stick with fish that do well in your climate.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

kittenfish said:


> They prefer cooler temps but they adapt well. I've seen them kept with bettas in a very knowledgeable lfs. I would not keep them in a tank that gets too hot for a betta, but 76 degrees or so could work. Rather than trying to cool your water, I would stick with fish that do well in your climate.


She was afraid the temperatures would get too hot for the Betta, too. ;-)


----------



## andakin (Aug 10, 2009)

WCMs are awesome. That's why they call them the Poor Man's Tetra. You get the look of neon tetras at a fraction of the price and they don't need a heater. A shop I been to sold them as feeders, only 10 cents per. I was so upset to see that.


----------



## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

White cloud minnows don't do well with betta, especially in your size tank, they need at lest double that volume for adequate swim room (long tank is better than tall tank). Also the lady at the store is not being an idiot, at least not about temp. White clouds need 14-22C, betta do better at 26C.. it might not seem like to much warmer, but its enough of a temp difference to kill cool water fish. You really shouldn't be keeping these two species together to begin with because of the temperature incompatibility. But thats just my 2¢.


----------



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> White cloud minnows don't do well with betta, especially in your size tank, they need at lest double that volume for adequate swim room (long tank is better than tall tank). Also the lady at the store is not being an idiot, at least not about temp. White clouds need 14-22C, betta do better at 26C.. it might not seem like to much warmer, but its enough of a temp difference to kill cool water fish. You really shouldn't be keeping these two species together to begin with because of the temperature incompatibility. But thats just my 2¢.


The lady at the store isn't an idiot, she just doesn't care. And the way she talks to you is as if she thinks that you can't string two words together about fish without almost making your brain short-circuit. And any question you ask her she gives you a "oh for ****'s sake, you should know this" attitude, despite the fact that you are just learning about fishkeeping as a hobby. When I mentioned the "you can't keep a betta in a 2L tank" she said to me "you can't trust everything you read on the internet". :shock2:

I'm returning the last Frank today. I would like another fish for Barry, because he co-existed with all of the Franks really well. Do you have any suggestions? I was going to buy a shrimp, but they are all cooler water too.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

In a 21L tank there's not really any fish I would personally recommend. Most schooling fish are active, and need the space to swim even if they are only small-bodied. I believe corydoras species prefer cooler water as well, and I doubt the tank has an adequate footprint for even the smaller species. 

There are fish like guppies, but I don't think 21L offers them enough space so that they aren't on top of each other and the betta. 

Personally I feel if you want tankmates for your betta, you should look at a minimum of 40L/10 gallons. I know some might disagree, but putting active fish into a too small tank is no different than trying to cram a betta into a 2L tank. 

I must have missed it, but how hot is your tank actually getting?


----------



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

It's getting 28degC. It's rediculously hot at the moment. I'm not going to buy any more fish until I get the temperature under control. I'm going to put a fan on my tanks now, hopefully it will help.

In the mean time, I'm not going to buy anything until I do more research. I would really like another tank mate for Barry because he looks a bit lonely, and he's a quiet betta.


----------



## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Just to throw out a suggestion, would some endlers work? They stay small, prefer the warmer temps, and are peaceful


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Endlers still need a larger footprint. Plus, having them, I can tell you they are extremely active and in a tank that small could drive a peaceful Betta nuts! Not many fish requiring more than one do well in five gallon tanks. Endlers do best with five or six. 

One option, though, would be a couple of African Dwarf Frogs as they need 75-82F and two with a Betta in a five would work; no fewer than two, though, as they are quite social. If you get a bigger tank like the 40L LBF suggested then you could easily have six and be well-entertained.


----------



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

Thanks Zhylis, I'll have a look into them now.

I have successfully returned the last Frank and by golly s/he was HUGE compared to the other white clouds in the tank. They grow really quickly.

Good luck Frank!


----------



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

I have never seen African Dwarf Frogs for sale in Australia. I haven't looked into it but I have a feeling that they would be illegal. A lesson from cane toads maybe. I'll look closer into the legality of them. I can almost see my biologist housemate having an epileptic fit from pleasure if I can get them.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

They are illegal in Australia. Like most things relating to this hobby.


----------



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> They are illegal in Australia. Like most things relating to this hobby.


*sigh*

And we can't get natives as pets too, so frogs are out of the question.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yes. There are so many fish I would love to keep but living in this country makes it near impossible.

I assume you are further north than me if you are having really hot weather? I'm down in Melbourne and had a few days of over 30 degree heat but nothing too extreme yet.


----------



## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm in Brisbane.

We have had some hot weather recently, but it is going to get worse. I might invest in a cooler for the tanks if it gets too bad


----------

