# Selecting Stock Guide



## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Since quite a few people seem to be having trouble with their choices I'm making this guide.

First, what are your breeding goals? Do you have specific coloration in mind? How about fin and form? No, breeding just to try and see if you can is not a valid goal. :frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:

Breeding to recreate a veil tail line isn't a valid goal either you cheapskates :frustrated::frustrated::frustrated: (unless you have knowledge of how to breed for a pure line.

Are your fish quality? Just because they come from Aquabid doesn't make them quality. In fact I literally laugh when I see a bad fish on AB going for $100. Poor uneducated fools who fall for that. If you are not an IBC member who has read the standards, chances are you won't know what to pick (seen it a million times). Be prepared to shell out some $$$$$ for a nice pair (I'm talking around $100 from Thailand and $50 from the states). 

Problems with pet store fish:

1. They come from filthy conditions and can carry disease.

2. Their genetic background is unknown and you may get something you don't want.

3. Just because it says "Halfmoon" does NOT mean it's a good specimen for breeding. 

Problems with AB fish:

1. You get what you pay for. $8 plus $10 shipping gets you a fish worth $8. However, a $100 fish can be worth maybe $5. If you pay too low of a price, chances are your fish aren't great. Pay too high, chances are you just got scammed. A good starter pair is between $30 and $50 in the USA. From Thailand it'll be at least $50 when all import fees and shipping is all set and done. 

2. What the heck are they called? An aliendragonoverhalmfoonrosetailwithDTgenes is just a fancy name for "Buy it because I say it's cool." They just want money and will coin any name to it to get it. 


Ok so now to select the fish. Choose your classification for shows (hey that's another reason you should join the IBC... so you know what to look for *duh!*). Select your favorite show class and hit AB for some searching. 

Example. Let's say you want to breed reds (lol good luck with those monsters newbies!). What makes a good red according to IBC standards? What about fins? How should those look? What about body type? Read read read and compare the fish in the standards to the fish you want to buy. 

Tips:

Contact a local breeder (if you can't find one... well look harder, trust me they're everywhere). A local breeder can supply you with some nice stock for a decent price. Keep in contact with them since they'll help you with your breeding projects. 

Talk to a good breeder who places well in shows like Martinismommy or BasementBettas (aka Karen and Sherolyn). 

Listen to people when they tell you not to breed your fish. If you ask "how is my pair" don't get offended when someone comes along and says "This this this this this and that I would avoid breeding them." Nothing is more frustrating than when someone asks for advice then says "Oh well I'll do it anyway."


Hopefully this helped. A little harsh but I'm simply stating facts. Breed good fish. If you can't afford a nice pair, you can't afford to breed.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks for this MrV. Don't want to point fingers but I've seen my fair share of bad fish being bred by irresponsible people, even on this forum. Betta are one of the more labour intensive fish out there to breed, that's for sure.
Also don't get why inexperienced people are so insistent on breeding their favourite pets. It's just putting the pet fish at risk..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

You've been busy this morning. Thank you for your posts on breeding


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Great Guide. 

I think it's good to be harsh - it gets your point across.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Really nice post Mr. V, I know from watching the Aquabid thread and then looking at some examples myself I see people purchasing below par bettas for outlandish prices. Most of the time some of the best bettas are the ones reasonably priced. I still remember the "Mascot" betta from aquastar you recommended to Karen(he was gorgeous) for only 25$ yet I have seen him price horribly balanced fish or deformities for well over 100$.
I know it cost me myself for my first pair a little less than 100$ (This is including all the transhipping and shipping to my house. The pair was about 45$)

Just an example to support your facts 
-Sincerely


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

OMG great post, real awesome idea!!!OMG LOL: aliendragonoverhalmfoonrosetailwithDTgenes
I don't think I heard anything so funny in my entire life!!!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Your Betta either meets standards or it doesn't......you either want to show your fish or you don't.
If you want to show your fish-join the IBC, get a mentor and buy the best pair you can afford that are as close to standards as possible...You won't find a perfect fish-they all have faults of varied degrees.

Buy a related pair to continue that breeders line that they have worked really hard on.....


Or......

If you have no interest in showing fish and want the experience of spawning and rearing this species....
Spawn those mystery genetic and see what you get, get your feet wet so to speak....It can be really rewarding and fun to spawn and rear your own Betta from eggs to adults......

IBC oriented hobbyist will try to discourage you and make it sound like an impossible, expensive task and should only be done by them.

I am here to encourage you to spawn your Betta even that pet shop Betta-to grow in this hobby and have fun and one day you may want to join the IBC...but until then don't let others tell you shouldn't or can't.....


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I'd say let pets be pets, and let breeding fish breed. It's the same thing as breeding your dogs who are mutts just for the heck of "experiencing" it. There's millions of unwanted mutts everywhere. The same goes for unwanted fish. Either invest your money in pure stock, or simply leave the breeding to those who can afford to do it properly. It's ignorant to do otherwise.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

Agreed OFL, Not all bettas should be a show betta and not all suppliers for LPS carry diseases


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

There are hundreds of thousands of bettas dying on pet store shelves around the world. When you breed just because you "feel like it" or you "want to have fun and experience breeding these fish just to try it" You are only bringing more unwanted bettas into the world, and taking homes away from the ones already out there in the pet stores. I don't believe any animal, be it fish, bird, dog cat, whatever, should be bred "just for fun" If you can't enjoy your pets without the need to breed them, then find them new homes, cause you shouldn't have them in the first place.

Breeding should be done with a goal in mind, you should be breeding to try and improve the species in some way, You should get a mentor, quality stock, and learn to do it the right way... plain and simple!


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

MoonShadow said:


> There are hundreds of thousands of bettas dying on pet store shelves around the world. When you breed just because you "feel like it" or you "want to have fun and experience breeding these fish just to try it" You are only bringing more unwanted bettas into the world, and taking homes away from the ones already out there in the pet stores. I don't believe any animal, be it fish, bird, dog cat, whatever, should be bred "just for fun" If you can't enjoy your pets without the need to breed them, then find them new homes, cause you shouldn't have them in the first place.
> 
> Breeding should be done with a goal in mind, you should be breeding to try and improve the species in some way, You should get a mentor, quality stock, and learn to do it the right way... plain and simple!


 
+1


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

No offense V, but when I saw the tittle, I was expecting tips on what to look for when choosing breeders. What form, what rays, etc - to improve this, to create that, and so on. I got the impression that this was nothing more than to promote IBC.



> "If you are not an IBC member who has read the standards, chances are you won't know what to pick (seen it a million times)."


IMO, you don't have to be an IBC member to read their standards. Yes being a member has it's advantages but you could gain knowledge anywhere - like this forum. Further, not everyone wants to show their collection. A lot of people simply wants to enjoy their hobby which IMO should totally be Fun. Then there's financial issues. There are many ways to make the hobby cheaper - eg. instead of getting individual heaters, people could keep their bettas near a room heater or in a very warm room (that's what I did). All you need is creativity - find methods that works for you.

I am not and never will be a member of the IBC - international or local, The main reason being show oriented hobbyists IMO tends to be arrogant and will look down (?), put off (?), or what ever, non show hobbyists who simply loves this species regardless of form. I love them all - both the traditional and modern types - and can't find a reason not to breed them AS LONG AS you can rehome them. I will support anyone wanting to breed any form as long as they have plans for the fry. ..... My hobby is breeding. I don't keep anything I can't breed except dogs. What ever I breed (birds and fish), bettas has always been one of them. 

Pet store bettas may be of poor quality (show wise) but they came from breeders just the same. Some are rejects of respected breeders. Filthy and carry disease - yes if they stay on the shelves too long. But if people were to buy them the day they were shipped in, those bettas should be no different than AB bettas. Even you often say buying pet store bettas is Okay as long as you know what to look for. .... 

@Moonshadow:
Then there is the question of "what exactly is quality". Is making the fins bigger and wider, changing their natural form better for the species? IMO if it were better for the species, then we would have found them in the wild. Ther is no such thing as better - only what we humans prefer.

Sorry for the long post.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

indjo said:


> No offense V, but when I saw the tittle, I was expecting tips on what to look for when choosing breeders. What form, what rays, etc - to improve this, to create that, and so on. I got the impression that this was nothing more than to promote IBC.
> 
> IMO, you don't have to be an IBC member to read their standards. Yes being a member has it's advantages but you could gain knowledge anywhere - like this forum. Further, not everyone wants to show their collection. A lot of people simply wants to enjoy their hobby which IMO should totally be Fun. Then there's financial issues. There are many ways to make the hobby cheaper - eg. instead of getting individual heaters, people could keep their bettas near a room heater or in a very warm room (that's what I did). All you need is creativity - find methods that works for you.
> 
> ...


+1 Kudos


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

The International Betta Congress is for anyone that loves bettas. True the clubs have shows, but IME no one has "looked down" on me when I've asked for information. Most of the IBC members have been very friendly and share their knowledge freely.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't ha e any problem with breeding petstore fish as long as its done RESPONSIBLY. You have to have people who are willing to take petstore fish. Also MrV, may I remind you that Data was a petstore fish.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Yes Data was a petstore fish. BUT he had traits I look for. In a rare case like that some pet store fish can show what you want. However the spawn itself threw some traits I was not looking for at all.

Keep in mind he was spawned to a well bred PK female who carries HMPK and HM genes.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

While I do agree with you on some parts, I must say it's a bit harsh considering you have bred/are raising a spawn of "petstore fish." You're also saying not to breed veiltails while you have tried/ are trying to breed VTs. IMO as long as you have a valid goal in mind,the supplies and time to breed, then it's okay. Hey, you started with pet store stock as well no?

I'll probably get flamed for this but, just my 2 cents.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

IMO IBC members tend to be rather arrogant and snobby. NOT ALL ARE THAT WAYjust most of the ones I've come across. You can get good info from their sites, though.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

This is for new breeders mostly. I'm going to work on VTs because I have knowledge on genetics and more than enough space to do it. And those VTs are going to be shown. 

Pet store fish are OK if you know how to pick them. Just picking two random pet store fish to spawn isn't a good way of choosing breeders.

If this thread is going to be an issue I can have it deleted.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with choosing good quality fish if you're breeding petstore bettas.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

I have no problems with breeding pet store bettas either....Heck if I start breeding again down here, I'm pretty much forced to use pet store bettas. All I'm trying to say is that if you're not _really _against it, then you should've wrote that on your original post instead of saying they carry diseases or whatever. I remember one time in Petco they were getting their shipment in and there was a beautiful orange dalmatian HMPK. With common sense, you know this male is from an orage dalmatian line. So, if he has good fins, nice color, healthy, and ready for a spawn, why not breed him? So yes you just gotta know what you're looking for and it's not always a bad thing to look around for new experiments....


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree.


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

I think what everyone is getting at is that you should breed responsibly. As in don't run into the pet store grab a two random bettas and throw them in a tub. You should put some thought and research into it. We, as Betta lovers, should be trying to better the species and do our best not to breed deformities into our bettas. Whether they be for show or pets :-D 
Just my two cents!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

A lot of people with nice things are snobby, DQ. It's just life, fish, dogs, cars, whatever. 
What gets my goat is when people breed bad fish, like unconditioned fish, and ones with bad spines (this upsets me a lot more than fins as this can actually lead to problems). And, those people that ask questions without reading the stickies right on this site, or "my betta eggs hatched what should I feed them?"
Most people are looking for pet quality fish.. Breeding show quality fish does produce pet quality ones. Breeding pet quality fish also produces pet quality fish. All most people want is some nice colors, hence the popularity of aquabid. Many IBC members would never sell a show quality fish with good genes to a pet home, which is why we need pet quality fish.
Pet quality, or just hobby breeders not interested in show are a different dynamic. There's nothing like reading a spawn log filled with photos from day 1, updates on individual fry, naming some that stand out, filming them just so we can see how they're doing. This is a whole other level of dedication, just of a different kind. It's growing to love them for their feisty personalities, having a secret favorite, the sad news of one fry that was lost.. 
Breeding for pets or for show, you gotta love the fish and dedicate yourself.

Also, I find the comments comparing fish to dogs confusing. I thought we were trying to stop stores from selling them by not buying them? Where does "over population" of pet store fish come into this? If you're one of those people, you should be buying from a breeder directly, local or on the other side of the country, whatever, just knowing that the fish are well cared for. Just like with dogs and other pets.
If you're one of those people that believes mass production of these fish will never stop (yes I am one of those people), then that point is somewhat invalid.
Know that if I had a local breeder of pet bettas I would ditch the pet shops for good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

More often than not quality fish produce pet quality fish. They're called culls.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Those are the ones that breeders get rid of because they're not good enough.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm well aware of pet quality fish being produced by show quality fish, as I stated. So if low quality fish are being culled, what are pet owners supposed to buy? Breeding stock?
Not all show breeders go through the trouble of selling off pet fish. I once tried to find good breeders in Canada, don't think anything turned up, just people selling Thai imports.. I'm personally getting sick of red and blue VTs and CTs, don't want to pay to import a pet fish from Thailand, don't think any of you American breeders will ship fish to Canada. I'd love a local breeder of some lower grade betta around here for a pet.

Also, totally off topic side question- if breeding show quality fish tends to produce low quality fish, are we getting anywhere?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

They produce a mixture. Four or so will be promising and be the breeders keepers. The next best are sold as breeders to others and the lowest quality as pet or culled.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

I would consider breeding pet store fish first before messing with high class fish, It's like saying "here try out my new Lamborghini". You must do it to learn, It takes practice to make perfect.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Most of my stock come from pet store.
I just work with what they got.
N improve it.

Top quality pair 
Will throw u pet quailty fish
If u decide to cull them early then it's fine
But if u wait till there a little to bigger to see if they will improve n it's not your liking(sell them to- cost of rearing)

I'm a breeder 
I hold back what I've call quality for future breed even if I've don't breed them
The rest is cull or sell

Breeding hm with a 30% hm
Batch of 150 with 45 hm 
I'll only consider 2-4 of them breeding quality

No breeded will let go there pick
Those are the fish you want to breed
Not second rate fish from the same line

How to start
Don't fall into the trap to get a quailty pair to start
You'll spend more then u expect n might not get any fry out


Start with a decent pet store fish with decent form n fin n work with it for a few generation 
To get the felling for it.
U might be lucky n get a quailty fish with in a year of breeding(3 generation)

If everything goes right in the long run
quality pair will save you more money 
Pet store u will gain you more knowledge( room for improvement)
Bottom line if you know what your doing
You'll end up with the same looking fish
Pet store will take u a bit longer to get there


Ibc
Not a really big fan of it


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I don't have a problem with people breeding "just for the experience" as long as they breed responsibly with conditioned, healthy fish AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, know where the spawn will go when they are grown. If you don't have an idea what to do with all those babies, then it might not be a good idea to spawn until you do. Otherwise, you'll have a houseful of little jars/little tanks. 

Most people on here are not breeding for or keeping bettas for show quality. They are keeping them for the brilliant colors and the endearing personalities. Now, like the farmer and the cowman, we can be friends.

As for the debate on breeding for show quality, I just won't get into that.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

indjo said:


> Pet store bettas may be of poor quality (show wise) but they came from breeders just the same. Some are rejects of respected breeders. Filthy and carry disease - yes if they stay on the shelves too long. But if people were to buy them the day they were shipped in, those bettas should be no different than AB bettas. Even you often say buying pet store bettas is Okay as long as you know what to look for. ....
> 
> 
> Sorry for the long post.


Nothing wrong with buying one of these local pet shop Bettas. But the breeders they come from are overseas and breed them in huge vats with no idea of what they will get or do they care. They sell them for pennies and the LPS sells them for dollars. I guess they are the puppy equivilant of a "Betta Mill".

The point being made on here is that if you are going to go to all the time and expense of breeding Betta's, then it is worth the extra few bucks to get stock that you know will find good homes. Do you have to join the IBC to do this? No you don't.

Jeff.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

+1 Well said.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Depend on what your breeding.
A few extra buck can mean hundred
Giant I can get a decent pair for 40 out the door n into my house
Decent pair of giant for a know breeder is 100+ n then u have to pay shipping about 50 for over sea
That's is 150+ n you can open the box with a dead fish


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

MrVampire181 said:


> They produce a mixture. Four or so will be promising and be the breeders keepers. The next best are sold as breeders to others and the lowest quality as pet or culled.


If only four fish in a spawn of possibly a hundred or more are considered quality, then it seems to me that the road to quality is a slow road indeed. And in the meantime, those ones who are not deemed quality are no different than those who were bred by someone who just wanted to breed for the experience or for something less than quality. Either way - whether your goal is quality or not - it seems like we end up with scores of fish who may or may not find homes. 

I feel that breeding for show purposes can be a slippery slope, whether it is fish or cats or dogs. 

Some people who have bred their pet bettas do so because they wish to have offspring from a beloved first betta. As long as the betta is healthy and the breeder has homes for the spawn, why not?

As for IBC, well, the people at the betta show were very friendly to me.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes.. Is there really a "bad" betta? I've never seen someone on this forum go "your fish isn't pretty" or "those fry turned out really bad."
All any of us are doing is breeding for a look we like, or fish we like.
I garden as a hobby.. I don't take plants to plant shows or whatever, it's for fun. Not everyone wants to take fish so seriously.. If you have plans for the fry that's all that matters.
I don't think breeding fish is like breeding animals like dogs. Dogs abound with genetic problems, hip dysplasia, heart murmurs.. Fish don't have these hidden problems, and if they do I dont believe anyone tests for it. I'm sure no one here would breed a physically deformed fish.. I personally don't believe there are genes for the perfect fins that are desired. Lengths and such, yes, but the finer details seem random to me, if every single fish produces low quality fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

tpocicat said:


> The International Betta Congress is for anyone that loves bettas. True the clubs have shows, but IME no one has "looked down" on me when I've asked for information. Most of the IBC members have been very friendly and share their knowledge freely.


US hobbyists and Asian hobbyists are very different. In my area, not all hobbyists are willing to share their "secret" on making this and that. 

What I meant was .... something like this ; when you meet a show hobbyist and get into a conversation - "what type do you work with" ... " Only pet store bettas" ..... then they go "oh, hmmm" .... end of conversation. They will show their reluctance if we try to keep the conversation going - specially if we ask about improving our bettas. It's like they're saying; " You keep trash. I don't want to know you".

To me, this is "looking down" upon pet hobbyists. I have had a number of such experiences meeting people in fish shops. I know not all are like that.... but a lot of them (if not most) are. .... Maybe it's just me, I don't know but I can never get a straight answer from them; including from a very close life time friend when I asked "where" he got his stock..... "It's unethical to answer that" - Why?

As far as I know, a lot of IBC hobbyists are willing to share their knowledge. Specially big well known breeders. But the ones growing might not be so friendly and will most probably discourage breeding pet bettas. I can understand both IBC and pet hobbyists and will support both. My answers will differ greatly, depending on the OP's interest.



> MrVampire181
> If this thread is going to be an issue I can have it deleted.


Yes there are different and contrasting opinions on this, but IMO a good healthy discussion will benefit new members to decide which direction they want to go. IMO as long as each can respect opposing ideas, this thread should be allowed.



> jeffegg2
> Nothing wrong with buying one of these local pet shop Bettas. But the breeders they come from are overseas and breed them in huge vats with no idea of what they will get or do they care. They sell them for pennies and the LPS sells them for dollars. I guess they are the puppy equivilant of a "Betta Mill".
> 
> The point being made on here is that if you are going to go to all the time and expense of breeding Betta's, then it is worth the extra few bucks to get stock that you know will find good homes. Do you have to join the IBC to do this? No you don't.


The demand is for colorful bettas, not quality. I know this for a fact because I used to help a friend bag them. And they don't breed in big pools. They raise them there after breeding them in 1g tanks/jugs. Sometimes they gather them from other breeders to meet their quota. 

I agree that it's better to breed better quality bettas - easier to rehome. But not everyone can and have to work with whatever is readily available in nearby shops. Are we going to discourage these people from breeding - from having fun on their hobby. All I'm saying is people should be responsible of what they produce. As long as they can rehome their fry, it doesn't matter what they breed...... who knows, when they have better knowledge and can buy better stock, they will begin breeding for quality.


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