# peas can cause digestive system damage



## ErinBBC (Apr 23, 2008)

When I first came here I got a lot of suggestions to feed a pea in case Marley got constipated, but recently I read a post by BettaBaby who is a betta fish expert. She said that in her necropsies (fish autopsies) she discovered that betta fish who are fed peas tend to have digestive system damage because the peas are too rough on their systems.

She suggests feeding Daphnia instead, you can buy it frozen and I think freeze dried at most big pet stores. According to her it's healthier and easier on the betta and does the same thing as a pea.

Anyway I just figured I'd post this to let you know what she said and you can decide for yourself.


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## Meatpuppet (Mar 1, 2008)

ok thanks erinbbc. ill try to rembemer that for next time. but arnt those plankton like water fleas?


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## ErinBBC (Apr 23, 2008)

I have no idea what they are, I haven't had to use them yet I just know that they come frozen from Petsmart.


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## JMeenen (Apr 7, 2008)

That is exactly what it is..a water flea


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## tmz (Jul 3, 2008)

ooo...they're at petsmart. that's good to know.
if all else fails, i'm paying one of my friends to drive me there XD


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

ErinBBC said:


> When I first came here I got a lot of suggestions to feed a pea in case Marley got constipated, but recently I read a post by BettaBaby who is a betta fish expert. She said that in her necropsies (fish autopsies) she discovered that betta fish who are fed peas tend to have digestive system damage because the peas are too rough on their systems.
> 
> She suggests feeding Daphnia instead, you can buy it frozen and I think freeze dried at most big pet stores. According to her it's healthier and easier on the betta and does the same thing as a pea.
> 
> Anyway I just figured I'd post this to let you know what she said and you can decide for yourself.


That would be tough to prove. Any hypothesis derived from anyone untrained in the world of piscivoric anantomy and the study of marine physiology would be a guess at best. 

The damage could be caused by a myriad of things. Bloodworms or any other food could have caused the damage. To say that the damage was caused by peas is hedging on being blatantly inconsistent with all previous knowledge and practice. I would hesitate to accept it as fact until a thoroughly trained person could verify the claim.


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## ErinBBC (Apr 23, 2008)

I will pm her and see what her credentials are, I am not sure of where her expertise comes from - like if she's a marine biologist or whatever.

EDIT - I went and looked at her signature on the bottom of an email she sent and it says she works as an Aquatic Nutritionist for a company in WI (I think that's the state, it's just slipped my mind)


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I am only here tonight for a short bit, at Lupin's request. I will answer this post, but not tonight. I am dealing with the death of my grandmother among other things right now and I just don't have the time or the energy.
I will be back soon, and I will post my qualifications.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

Please do. I am interested in knowing the schools you studied and the classes you took. Biology(especially marine biology and the study of piscivores), physiology, piscivoric anatomy and necroscopies are demanding areas of study. To become an expert in such areas would take a great deal of discipline, dedication, time and money to attend schools that offer such advanced areas of study. They are not something that any lfs employee can pick up on the sly or from just reading a book on the subject(s). A great deal of teaching from highly qualified professors and listening to lectures given by such minds, and lab time would be required. Having a microscope in the fishroom, a reference book at hand would not make one an expert in the field. 

Hundreds, if not thousands, of post mortem autopsies would have to be taken and a controlled experiment and environment would be needed. Biopsies taken and examined, data gathered, archived and processed, it would take years and years of experimenting, collecting the data and processing the information to make such a claim. Literally feeding fish highly regimented diets, all monitored and varied, in order to kill them to collect the data. I don't believe that happened here. I will stand corrected if wrong and admit being so, but I would have to see it to believe it.


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## ErinBBC (Apr 23, 2008)

BettaBaby - I'm sure everyone else here is as sorry as I am to hear of your loss. We can certainly wait to hear from you about your areas of study. 

Herefishy - It seems that you have a ton of first hand knowledge on what it takes to become an expert and how such experiments are conducted. I was curious to know where you went to school? How long did it take you to accomplish your degree(s) and do you feel it was rewarding in the end? I'm NOT trying to get you to 'prove yourself' I'm simply curious being that I'm in grad school myself and feel that it will never ever end!!

As far as the peas vs. daphnia, personally I am going to feed daphnia anyway, as water fleas would seem to be a more 'natural' addition to a betta's diet than peas since betta's eat water dwelling critters in their wild habitats.


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## JMeenen (Apr 7, 2008)

I would also assume that Bettas as do other fish eat vegitation in thier natural habitat as well....


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I will be posting my asked for credentials here shortly, but wanted to address the last post...
Not all fish eat vegetable matter. Some fish are strictly carnivore, some strictly herbivore, and some qualify as omnivore. A betta's natural diet is primarily carnivorous. If left to seek food on their own, plant matter is not something they seek out.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Although I should not have to do this, I will. And before I begin listing my credentials, I have to ask first, what are your credentials?

I also have to say, I was instructed some time ago here on the forum not to be listing my credentials in posts because it was seen as “tooting my own horn.” I need to make sure that everyone is well aware that I am only doing this because the question was put to me directly, and done so by a former mod. If anyone has issues with this, then I will suggest taking it up with the administrator, and not here on the open forum.

With that said, I will start out by saying that I do not have a college degree. However, the people I have trained under DO have college degrees, and that includes my husband. I also have all of my husband’s college text books here, not just any book off of a store shelf. I also have 10+ yrs of personal experience, seminar attendance, experiments, & research since my training began, and about 13 yrs of personal experience & research before the formal training. Just to be sure everything here is clarified, I am going to list the credentials of the people who trained and schooled me…　

Joe Olenik: Besides his B.S. in Aquatic Biology (UWM 1978), Joe has attended Dr. Gratzek's Fish Disease Workshop at the University of Georgia in 1985, has had involvement in Tetra University, has been invited to speak at the Backer Show many times, had lived overseas for 17 years and collected & kept a wide variety of herps (reptiles/amphibians), insects, and fish that were native to local areas. Joe continues to attend seminars and training classes even today. Joe has been an avid fish keeper for over 35 yrs. Joe's former job experience as store manager at Docket Pet Center from 1978 - 1980 and store manager/regional supervisor of Animal Crackers from 1997 - 1999 only add to his expertise.

 Luann Melbey: Bachelor's of Science in Biology (UWM 1993) State board certified vet tech. (July 1994) and experience at Animal Emergency Center as well as private practice vet clinics. Luann is currently the manager at a lfs.

Jeff Michels: A 4 year degree in Biology/Chemistry/Business Ed and was Fish room Manager for 5 years along with Milwaukee Aquarium Society Breeder Award Chairperson for 3 years and President for 2 years. Jeff currently runs his own business and has his own fish room where he breeds, studies, and sells aquatic animals.

Rob Moneyhan: a B.A. in Aquatic Ecology and Spanish, job experience with the DNR Fish Hatchery in the state of Michigan, and courses in Animal Physiology, Ecology Theory & Methods, Limnology, Comparative Anatomy, Invertebrate Zoology, Ichthyology, Algology, Organic Chemistry, Physics, and many other courses over his 6 years in college. To add to his list of knowledge and experience, Rob also specializes in aquarium lighting & design, and is the person responsible for designing the salt water tide pool at Hoffer's Tropic Life Pets. Rob also spent some time living in Australia where he tried his hand with some lizard keeping to add to his many skills. Rob also served for 2 yrs as the chairman of the Milwaukee Aquarium Society's B.A.P. (Breeder Award Program) Rob is currently the lead tech support for AllGlass Aquariums, Oceanic, Kent Marine, Aqueon, Zilla Products, and other companies that have merged to form one giant company, now called Central Aquatics. 

There have been others who participated in my training and learning, helped with my research, etc. over the years. The list would be too long to put them all here, but included are DVM's (licensed vets), breeders, distributors, chemists, zoologists, and various long term hobbyists from around the country. The above listed people were the primary sources of my education, along with 10+ yrs of independent study during my formal training.

My current job is as an independent aquatics specialist & nutritionist, and I continue with my studies, experiments, and research all the time. I also breed, raise, and sell aquatic animals, reptiles, and amphibians. I quit my last job because I couldn't handle the "business decisions" being made in favor of customers instead of the animals best interests.

Before I end, I would like to point out something my husband made mention of when I showed him this post. Rather than trying to explain it in my own words, I am going to quote him directly. (with his permission, of course)

"If that is his stance, then herefishy has to discredit 95% of all “experts” in the aquarium industry and hobby including authors of books and himself most likely. With what he is saying, he would have to take the stance of “I will not believe one way or another that peas will or will not have any harmful or beneficial effects on Bettas unless it has been thoroughly studied under laboratory conditions”. He in essence contradicts some of his own statements in the past. Very few of the proclaimed “betta experts” have a formal university level education in the subject, in fact, very few of the fish and invert “experts” have formal educations in the immediate subject. They are hobbyists that have received the training to make educated hypothesis. Nothing can be considered a “Scientific Law” unless extensive testing and retesting by multiple scientists who get the same results, is concluded. There is likewise no scientific evidence that peas are good for bettas, either, according to herefishy.You have been educated by people who do have a formal education in the field and the scientific process and are qualified to make such hypothesis. No one can say 100% for sure that peas are the cause of death, but by reviewing evidence and thru personal experience it can be “hypothesized” that it is the most likely cause. Without a necropsy on a freshly deceased betta suspected of dying from eating peas there is no 100% way to know the cause. If you look at things, over 99% of all decisions on health, husbandry, compatibility, diet, and other aquarium related aspects are made by hobbyists that do not have formal university education in the field of Aquatic Biology, but have had lots of experience and have a knack for observation and common sense.This guy and a lot of other people in this nation and the world probably don’t have the luxury of having pet stores that employ people with university degrees (scientific background). There are few stores that do. We know what we have here and being of that caliber also know of a few others around the nation.We can send him credentials until we are blue in the face, but I doubt he will accept anything we tell him. His response will most likely be “that is what you say, but can you prove it” which I am not copying any of my college transcripts to send to anyone. They can be falsified by someone and used or my information can be used for identity theft.We can state qualifications, but the best response would be to state that anyone can go back and look at your posts and the responses to them to see what your expertise is.

If he wants qualifications, Joe has a 4 year degree in General Biology (course work unknown) and Ecology, has been in the industry for almost 30 years, Jeff Michels with a 4 year degree in Biology/Chemistry/Business Ed and Fishroom Manager for 5 years along with Milwaukee Aquairum Society Breeder Award Chairperson for 3 years and President for 2 years, Luann is a Vet Tech (4 year Biology I believe).

I have a 6 year degree in Aquatic Ecology with relevant aquatic course work in the studies of Limnology, Algology, Ichthyology, Fisheries Management, Ecological Methodology, Comparative Anatomy, Invertebrate Zoology, Animal Physiology, Ecological Animal Physiology, Genetics, Chemistry, Physics, etc and even my Senior year of High School I took an Advanced Placement curriculum of Aquatic Biology for my science elective. Then a year with the Department of Natural Resources Fisheries Division Salmon/Trout hatchery, 9 years in a high end pet store as a fishroom manager and store Pathologist, 2 years as Milwaukee Aquarium Society Breeder Award Chairperson, and 2 years as Lead Tech Support for a major manufacturer of freshwater/saltwater Aquarium and reptile products. 
Then you learning from all of this combined experience. Just because you yourself were not enrolled in college doesn’t mean you have not received an education of a higher level. I wouldn’t give a plug nickel for someone with “book smarts” compared to someone who has had practical experience. A degree is just a mark on a piece of paper and not necessarily worth squat."


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

I forgot to mention that over the past 6 yrs I have performed and participated in a number of successful fish surgeries, and have experience with anesthesiology in fish. (putting them to sleep for surgery and then waking them back up after the procedure is complete)


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## Ashkat (Mar 11, 2008)

Credentials aside, I'd rather take advice from bettababy who is able to give it in a respectful manner, and support her findings with facts. I've not had as positive an experience with others, and whether they are right or not, they do more harm than good by failing to be good ambassadors.

Thanks for being a good ambassador for fishkeepers, bettababy.


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## ErinBBC (Apr 23, 2008)

What Ashkat says is true, when people are on forums I think they have a tendency to be a bit rude or disrespectful when they disagree with someone, and this creates a less than welcome environment. Even if Herefishy was not trying to be rude, it did appear that way because of the wording he or she chose. 

This is why I was careful when asking for Herefishy's credentials to clarify that I was not trying to pick a fight, but was simply asking a question. We should all be very careful what we choose to write because we could end up coming off in a way that we didn't intend. 

Also I think it's important to remember that we don't know what's going on in the lives of others, for example the passing of BettaBaby's loved one, and I know that none of us wants to cause extra aggravation at an already difficult time in their lives because they feel that they have been insulted.

I wish that the thread had not taken a confrontational turn, but I believed that BettaBaby's advice was sound before I knew her credentials and now that I know them I am even more convinced. I think that it is important info for betta owners to know so that they can make a decision that they are happy with.


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## tmz (Jul 3, 2008)

> I think that it is important info for betta owners to know so that they can make a decision that they are happy with.


definately. information seems to basically be the purpose of this forum, so it would make sense to post bettababy's knowledge.

i really wish icould ahve gotten ahold of some daphina, but i was unable to find it in stores near my house. i currently cant drive, so i couldnt get to petsmart. i resorted to the pea because my fish hadnt gone in liek a week and i was running out of options.
although, tomorrow, i'm going with a friend to another pet store and im really hoping to find some.


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## Melora (Apr 6, 2007)

It never made much sense to me when people said to feed betta's something I didn't think they'd be able to digest. I figured maybe the roughage would pass through but I also thought "Maybe this will just clog them up more." I've rescued so many animals over the years- after a while, and after meeting & befriending so many people who work with animals in such a variety of fields, I really believe that a formal college education can mean squat over someone who cares, has some common sense, and ownership experience. I've had great vets tell me that sometimes the college educated vet techs are far worse than the ones who have been led to the position through more worldly means. -Like the ones that were shelter owners that just started assisting the vets, to keep costs down, and eventually got a job out of it. Or sometimes they were just interested people who got a desk job there and moved up because they had such a knack for doing things right.

Then one example would be that I know a guy who worked in a Zoo, taking care of all their reptiles- He keeps trying to convince me that it's okay to feed these gigantic cockroaches to my beaded dragons even though everything I've ever heard from a herp rescuer or breeder says that they've had beardies become parallelized, (or know someone who has had first hand experience with it,) from over sized food trying to pass through their digestive tract and putting pressure on their spine. In my mind, it's a no brainer: He has an education and credentials, but does that mean he knows about, or believes, that specific problem? No, not in the least. So I'm going to stick with the advice from the people who have the experience with it. Even if it's a small risk, why take the risk? There's other stuff out there that's damn good and isn't in question. Besides, I've seen some Zoo's with really crappy conditions and husbandry practices.

There's a product sold in petsores as "safe" substrate for Bearded Dragons; crushed walnut shells. There's a picture of a Bearded Dragon right on the package and it says, right on it, that they can pass it safely through their digestive tract. Most experienced bearded dragon owners will tell you that it will kill them. It killed mine; before there was much info out there on it I read the packaging and believed it over my common sense. Sure enough though, it scraped up her intestinal wall over 2 years and slowly killed her. The scraping damage made it hard for her to absorb anything and she finally got clogged up. It's the last time I believed pet packaging. I don't need more than one necropsy to know it's a risk, I got one done for mine and it was plain as day. At least now there is more evidence- It took a while; because in most cases it takes an owner wanting to pay extra after their pet is already dead, and that doesn't usually happen, but vets are finally starting to publish their findings on the matter. How many have to die for it to become true enough for most caring owners? Not hundreds I would hope. Do they really need to do a full blown scientific study on the digestive tract of Bearded Dragons and Walnut Shells? It makes sense enough that it's a problem, and even if it's only happened to a few, that's honestly more than enough for me if something just isn't necessary.

Ferrets are also known to get clogged up because they're strict carnivores but people think they need to feed them fibrous foods because people need fiber. I'll never get that either.

I truly understand why someone would fully want to understand something, I'm just rambling my thoughts out, if I sounded rude anywhere it wasn't my intent. I really do just end up rambling alot on things that connect in my mind but may end up having no real point.


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## ErinBBC (Apr 23, 2008)

Melora - I had the same experience with a snake, the pet store said to use crushed walnut shells as a substrate because it was digestable, but it caused a blockage in Merlin and he had to have surgery. I did some research of my own and found out that pine shavings are best because snakes are not tempted to eat it plus they can burrow without getting scraped up.

That's why I love these forums, no telling how many disasters have been averted because experienced animal keepers can share info.


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## JMeenen (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks for your respnse to my post Bettababy...I did not know that Bettas would not normally seek out vegitation as a food scource..so I will try the Dapnia annd stop feeding peas.


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

My credentials are as follows 46, soon to be 47, years in the hobby. I have seen and been a part of the progression of our obsession. I have designed more filtration systems, from metropolitan, to commercial, to residential, to aquaria, than I can even begin to count. 

I have had the pleasure, and still have the pleasure, of knowing and being able to associate myself, with some of the innovators and greatest minds in our hobby. Knowing some of the "new line" of marine biologists, such as Dr. Tony Robertson, Jerald Ault, Keir Becker, David Letson, and others. These folks are still practicing their trade and passion in universities and colleges throughout the country, they are the minds that help use to understand the ideosychrosies of the fish and habitats of the fish we keep.. Also such breeders as Jack Wattley, Bob McDonald, David Hemmerlein, Dennis Wetzel, Joan Ghianni, Mike and Diane Schaedle, and many, many others. My network is extensive and dynamic. One of my most memorable contacts was with Dr. Warren Burgess. He was my mentor when I started keeping African cichlidsmany years back. I learned the foundation of my experience with these fish through him.

Seven years of college including the University of Western Kentucky, Purdue University, Indiana University, and Notre Dame University studying math, physics, environmental design and management. And a degree in mechanical design engineering. Much of the time I was attending more than one school simultaneously with another.

I have certifications as a water process engineer, environmental water processes and design, water management, waste water processes and design, electrical design and and layout, communications interfacing, and others. Many of these required exhaustive study and hours of tests, some over 40 hours of testing, to receive. And the benchmark to pass in many were a score of 90% or better. I never had to take any test more than once. Ringing my own bell there, sorry. 

I am member of the ACA, AKA, IBC, MAS, and other aquatic clubs and societies, both specialized and general. I have, like Dawn, attended numerous annual meeting, seminars, and classes on the care, upkeep, breeding, physiology, and ecology of biotopic spheres. 

I must also say, that I've probably lost more fish during some of my "experiments" than I care to admit or can even begin to count. These losses were not anticipated, but, truly, advanced my knowledge of the hobby. Those losses validated all of the progress that I have made in my keeping of fish. 

Some may be aware of my "multi-layered/reverse flow" filtration theory. I have worked on that project of over 25 years. I still believe that it is not perfect and continue to experiment, adapt, and perfect that process. As new and improved equipment and products become available, it will forever morph to become better. 

I do not claim to be an expert. My ego does not demand that I do so. I draw upon my knowledge, experiences(both good and bad, successful and unsuccessful), and the knowledge of others, both present and past, to guide me. I do not make claims until I am positive they are correct and will work. I would hesitate to make the claim that peas cause digestive damage to bettas with the knowledge I have at hand. I would, instead, delve further into the probabilities that feedings prior to the condition could be the culprit. Feeding freeze-dried foods, without proper preparation would lead me to believe that the damage was caused prior to the introduction of peas as a laxative. It seems that the texture of freeze dried foods is harsh, course, tough, and could be very abrasive to the digestive tract. Thereby causing the damage long before the introduction of peas, or other vegetable matter, as a laxative. These are just observations of years of participation in the hobby, the knowledge of the composition of foods, and a general feeling that many aquarists lack the proper training and expertise in keeping fish. I have also been in contact with a few "cronies" that also believe this could be true. I am not saying that the damage was "pre-peas" but the possibility is definitely soundly based. My basis in suggesting that most aquarists lack knowledge is simply reading the posts on this, and other, forums. The evidence is quite convincing and hard to argue against.

Dawn's claim that peas cause more harm than good is controversial , at best. I have found no supporting evidence from others to support the theory. I have spent hours, literally, on the web, on the phone(in contact with people that would be able to support the concept), and in contact via email and IM with others. One thing I will mention, ANY laxative is damaging to the digestive system of ANY animal. Just by their nature, they tend to "scrub", for lack of a better term, the bowel, something I learned from one of my contacts, as I did not no that prior to speaking to him. There are some that are truly incompatible with the digestive system. For instance, one would not use bamboo or tree fiber as a laxative because of the harshness of the fibers of the plant. However, it has been proven that grains and legumes(which include peas and beans) are among the most gentle of all natural laxatives. Although, I could not find any information on these as they relate to piscivores, it has been stated in many medical journals that pertain to humans and other larger animals. One would also have to have live specimens that had not been subject to any contact with peas or any other item that may cause damage to the digestive tract. and partake in a very lengthy and controlled experiment in which fish would have to be eruthenized to be able to be dissected. I know that Dawn is not the type to partake in such studies. She is a caring individual and very adamant about animal rights, including fish. She would not be one to sacrifice an animal to have an experiment that would be that would lead to a conclusive answer. This is the reason I am so upset over her proclamation. It is one-sided and incomplete, based on half the story. I would like to hear the rest of the story. I do not believe that sufficient data was obtained to come forth with such a claim. A handful of necroscopies on ailing fish without the same on healthy specimens is not conclusive evidence. Nor can it be an educated guess to make the claim based on that as sole evidence. And yes I would challenge ANY such claim from ANYONE that did not have subjective, complete data from both sides of the fence.

Science is a peculiar beast. When one proposes something as controversial as Dawn has, one must completely justify the pronouncement. One must not only think as a protagonist, but as an antagonist also. The presenter must conduct experiments from the other side to validate the findings. That means a complete an exhaustive, analytical and diagnostic review and research testing the theory. One must think "what if, " I wonder if this could....", "could this be the case instead of" and adopt that approach to verify and validate one's findings. Then and only then can one have the confidence and evidence to publish one's findings. 

My reasoning for myself not wanting to be labeled as an expert is simply, I am still learning. It is a forever , non-ending, process for the devoted hobbyist. If I understand that, others should also. I am continuously learning new methods and, especially as of late, the past 10-15 years, new technologies. To be an expert, implies an all knowing persona, which, if a person would be completely honest with themselves and others, will never happen. There is absolutely no way for a person to be an expert. They may be well versed in a subject, but to be referred to as an expert is purely to feed one's own ego.

One may also become very proficient in certain aspects of the hobby. Many are very good at spawning certain species of fish. But, the methods they use may not be universal. I would not call that person an expert. There are some that have the capacity to figure out certain problems and find solutions. I would not call them experts. Rather, I would consider them as "prophets of proficiency" and "agents of progress" that are major contributors in the aspects of observation and problem solving.


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## bettababy (Oct 12, 2006)

Let me first say thank you for all of the supportive posts here. 
Then let me say, I am not a "self proclaimed expert". It is others who have labeled me as such, so herefishy, if you're implying something here... stop now.

One of the things I've learned over the years is not to assume anything about anyone. I hear alot of assumptions about me being made here, and I find that very disrespectful. 

As my husband stated about his transcripts, I am not going to put all of my research findings here on the forum to be tampered with. What I will say is that one of the reasons I began spawning bettas over 10 yrs ago is to conduct my own studies, to have the control over their diets, environments, etc.. from birth to old age. I won't say I have sacrificed healthy fish deliberately, because I have not... but I have done extensive (10 yrs worth) of studies on the bettas and a number of other fish that were spawned in my own fish room and raised, kept until death from whatever the cause.

When I stated that I saw evidence of damage caused by peas, it was from the necropsy studies of my own fish, raised from birth and under environments and diets that I had control over. I conducted this study and it became ongoing due to a number of issues my customers were finding in their fish. This study was also part of my study of fish nutrition, which included testing out many different foods. Once again, these were fish that I spawned myself, had control over the environment and diets, etc. I then stopped spawning bettas when my study of them was as complete as I could accomplish at the time. 

Anyone who has published their research and findings will understand that this is an expensive process, and for which I have not had the funding to this point. I am not the only person who has not published their research and findings for such a reason, and I am not going to allow it to be stolen or altered by posting it all freely on the internet.

For someone to be so adamant that the peas don't cause damage, I have to wonder what studies you have conducted to prove me wrong?

If anyone has a personal problem with me, I would much appreciate it if that was taken up in private, be it IM, PM, or even phone conversations. I don't demand that someone list their background information for me to examine and determine for everyone whether it is reliable or not, and I don't expect others to do such things to me. Each person has a mind and opinion of their own, and it should be left as each person's personal choices on who to trust and why.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks for the input, folks, but it's time to move on.


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