# Value of turquoise HM?



## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

I am thinking about starting a line of HM turquoise fish. I would like to know what one is worth before starting and if I might have trouble finding homes for them. I will be selling to to people in CA if I do spawn.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

Depends on the quality and color. A good show one could get you $20 or more if it's a rare color . Average everyday hm $5-$10 . It depends a lot on the fish.

You are going to have to ship all over the country if you wants to move the fish.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

But is turquoise a rare colour?


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

Turquoise is not a rare color. Quite common in fact. Turquoise is one of the IRID colors.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

If you want to break even and make your fish pay for them self it is worth it to invest in quality stock. Get a pair that people would be will to pay good money for.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Could anyone point me to a nice pair on AB?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Basement bettas has some nice ones. 

The trick with common colours is to breed them well... No red wash and good form are essential for good sales.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

If your trying to make a profit in breeding
Don't go with the hm
The value will b higher for a single fish
But the cost, time n space of rearing is three time as much


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

The cost, time, and space is pretty much the same no matter the fin type...


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Yea, I agree with Matt. HMs are worth way more than most except some HMPKs IMO.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

What I'm mainly going to do is sell to my friends and people in my town. They don't know the difference between a VT and an HMPK but I can still charge $20 for a male and most people are fine with that. Maybe 1/2 to pet stores.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Nope hm require cleaner water to have nice fin
Better food
More work to keep there spread 
If I breed hm a fish will cost me roughly $1-$2 to rear that's if I have the set up already
Hmpk $.80-$1.20
Vt n Pk $.30-$.60
Y breed hm as a profit when most of the stock is hard to move 
super delta n delta I sell them at $3-$5 each local n I got a hard time moving


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Redthebetta that way to high to b charging a person for just a male
Unless it a A grade fish


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Well, any fish you breed should have clean water and the best foods possible... And crowntails are actually more difficult. Plus, even if it costs 2$ to raise a hm and .60$ for a vt, you can sell HM for way more.

I do agree that 20$ is pretty high for a fish, unless you're breeding top quality.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

I know but most people that I sell to don't :angel:! I will actually charge less than that, though.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Im talking about drinking water clean for hm
If u want good fish
Hmpk n other I just use age sink water
Only breeder want to pay high price for a fish
If your not well know
Even u have great fish
U will have a harder time selling them


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Lol, you have no clue what you are talking about! Also, can you at least TRY to use correct spelling and grammar?


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

I guess I don't have any clue cause I only sold about 2,000+ fish so far.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Lol. Personally I don't think any Betta requires any different care in raising. But everyone has different experiences and opinions. I don't think that HM's need cleaner water, better food and more work.. I mean I wouldn't just clean and feed only HM's well and neglect the HMPK just because.... HM's apparently have different needs than HMPK's. 

I think it costs about the same amount... If anything HMPK's need more space as they have shorter fins and swim faster and are more active, therefor would appreciate more space.

CFB. I don't doubt your experience with Bettas as I know you are a big breeder and have been doing so for a while. I know you may have had your own experiences and have had to pay extra for HalfMoon Betta fry care. I don't think it's any different but everyone has their own experiences, opinions and thoughts on this matter


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Countdown: 2 posts until mod intervention.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

+1 to everything Mo said.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

What is a mod intervention? Lol


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

when a moderator steps in to remind everyone to play nice, lol

I do think it was a little rude of redthebetta to criticise someone else's comments and grammer, spelling, when they were only trying to advise on their personal experience. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves.  Not trying to be nasty but just observation if the fish in redthebetta avatar is still in that condition I would think twice about breeding.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Oh, thank you for telling me that! I didn't understand it at first.

Also I don't think RTB is going to start breeding immediately I think s/he is just planning, thinking and learning about breeding right now... I guess s/he's sorta just wondering if s/he should breed and what s/he should breed, just wondering if it'd be a good color to breed in the future when they get around to breeding.. At least that's what I'm just assuming I could be totally wrong


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Mo said:


> Oh, thank you for telling me that! I didn't understand it at first.
> 
> Also I don't think RTB is going to start breeding immediately I think s/he is just planning, thinking and learning about breeding right now... I guess s/he's sorta just wondering if s/he should breed and what s/he should breed, just wondering if it'd be a good color to breed in the future when they get around to breeding.. At least that's what I'm just assuming I could be totally wrong


your welcome, I don't know, but one of the big things for Redthebetta seems to be money, (I could be wrong) and personally I think if you are going into breeding it should be about the hobby and the enjoyment of it. Not for financial gain. If someone really wants to get into breeding for the love of the fish then why not start of with normal veil tails and not be so concerned about rare colours and what money you can get for them, they actually have to survive before you can sell them. With anything the rarer the mutation the more difficult it is to breed and raise.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

There is a good reason people don't breed veiltails, and it has to do with more then the money... Vts are abundant and difficult to sell, and it isn't very smart to breed 100 more when there are already 100's dying on the shelf.

I do agree that money should never be a motivating factor when breeding anything... It can lead to dubious practices (fin cutting, mass culls...) and other things that are more selfish, and less about the fish. (That was a broad statement, not saying RTB would ever be like that).


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

MattsBettas said:


> There is a good reason people don't breed veiltails, and it has to do with more then the money... Vts are abundant and difficult to sell, and it isn't very smart to breed 100 more when there are already 100's dying on the shelf.
> 
> I do agree that money should never be a motivating factor when breeding anything... It can lead to dubious practices (fin cutting, mass culls...) and other things that are more selfish, and less about the fish. (That was a broad statement, not saying RTB would ever be like that).


I can see what you are saying Matt, fin cutting you are not saying what I think you are? I have never heard of that term.

going back to RTB selling the fish though, RTB basically said the people s/he will sell to will pay anything and haven't really got a clue anyway, lol.:-D


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Fin cutting is exactly what is sounds like... There's a breeder in Canada who some love and some (like I) don't like who cuts his halfmoons fins before they go in the spawn tank to "make their job easier". Right. That's why _so_ many hobbyists don't have any success when they don't trim their males fins... Lol.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

MattsBettas said:


> Fin cutting is exactly what is sounds like... There's a breeder in Canada who some love and some (like I) don't like who cuts his halfmoons fins before they go in the spawn tank to "make their job easier". Right. That's why _so_ many hobbyists don't have any success when they don't trim their males fins... Lol.


oh my god that's just awful. You would think it would hinder them if they were in discomfort, I know some people say fish don't really have a sense of pain, I have no idea if that is true or not, but still it is cruel. originally though I was thinking the big chain stores perhaps cut the fins to make them look a different shape and then sell them as a different breed.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Mod alert!!!

Yes, please play nice everyone.. we are here to learn and share our experiences. We aren't in grade school (well, most of us aren't) and do not need to be told how to spell correctly. Some of us just don't.. and that's okay.

I actually work with turquoise, and just spawned another HM double tail pair of them today as a matter of fact.. took them less than three hours to get going lol. 

Now, it honestly isn't more work than most other tails.. ALL fin types need to have daily flaring exercises.. the CTs need a 180 spread, the HMPKs need a 180 spread, the HMs need a 180.. all the combination of all of those together (CTHMPK, etc) need a 180 spread. VTs need a proper spread, regular plakats need a wide spread, and so forth. They all require the same exercise and not just for the spreads.

They all require the same water except CTs who require a bit softer water to keep their rays straight. Other than that, ALL need the best water conditions possible to keep them healthy. 

So all in all, breed what you want as they all require the same care and same money. To be able to pinpoint to the cent how much it is to keep one fish is not accurate.. they all need the same kind of food, the same amount of food.. the same temperature of water, same water conditions, etc.. There is no difference in price, the only time there is a difference in price is if the breeder is not properly caring for all of them.

In order to break even within the first couple of years breeding you will have to produce such high high quality of fish, and breed a TON. Don't ever go into breeding bettas thinking about bringing in money. Three + months of work, hours a day spent in caring for them, money spent on food, water, electricity, containers adds up to more than what you will get back for the fish - an example would be spend roughly $50 to raise a single fish to age for selling (to make sure they are mature.. money and time).. and sell it (if you are lucky) for $15.

People who are in it for the money are quickly seen that way among hobbyists and other breeders and they honestly won't get as many sales as someone who is in it for the betterment of the species, etc. People who are willing to spend the money for the fish and shipping would rather get quality fish over someone who mass produces in order to try to recoup some of the money they lost raising the fish.. you can see the difference between a breeder who does it for money, and one who does it for the love of the hobby.. you can see it in their fish. Look on AB - you will see those "meh" looking ones for less than $10.. people will have a lot of posts for fish of that price.. and they are.. bland looking.. but you see a very pretty fish going for $25 then you know that person spent time and money into caring for their stock and such. Yes, we all have culls, but if that is all the breeder sells, it makes you think. Just keep in mind most buyers who have the money to spend know what to look for in a breeder and they gossip. Fast. It's very dramatic out there in the betta breeding world.. 

So I recommend if you are to get into this hobby then I would do it how you want - get the fin types and colors you want.. you want to do turquoise, do it. A TRUE turquoise is rare to find... there are mixes and some that look like it, but are not true ones. Only a few breeders can actually produce a true turquoise. I call some of mine that, but I know they need work - their mothers are from one of the best breeders in the world, and one of the very few who can do turquoise.. but even still I'm getting too many mixes. Keep that in mind too.. you want a certain color, but you'll end up with all different sorts unless you know the genetics. 

So breed what you like.. you're the one who will spend thousands on this hobby, spend hours a day, spend money each month on it and take up a lot of space. Do it because you are passionate about the fish.. if not then you will end up frustrated, bitter and give up and lose out on a lot of money in the end.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> Fin cutting is exactly what is sounds like... There's a breeder in Canada who some love and some (like I) don't like who cuts his halfmoons fins before they go in the spawn tank to "make their job easier". Right. That's why _so_ many hobbyists don't have any success when they don't trim their males fins... Lol.


I know who you are talking about.. I left his group a while ago.. he's one of the types who thinks he is all that, is the best, yadda yadda yadda.. no surprise he is blacklisted by many breeders and groups lol. I used to fight him on the fin cutting thing.. how come I get a spawn of 600 fry without cutting their fins? How come I get all of mine to spawn anywhere from 3-24 hrs after introduction all the time without cutting their fins?

Silly EB...


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I think when a potential breeder is still asking questions regarding incompatible tail types and colors, common colors vs rare colors as well as not knowing the color layers or Punnett square genetics we don't even have to argue the point of getting $20 for whatever pops put of a spawn.
Literally less than one hour of reading up on the subject will answer all of those questions. 

As far as HM water goes? That's news to me. Clean water is clean water. It is true that HM require the water STAY clean whereas other fin types are more forgiving on water quality but I don't think they need special drinking water. They do require daily exercise for fin development...but then again HMPK do as well.

To add insult to injury, this is a fish forum and not an English grammar class. Sorry but that is a pet peeve of mine and this isn't the first person to pop off about English or grammar when they don't have anything to add to the conversation. It is a very pompous thing to do meant to make others feel stupid for having a different opinion or questioning something. Grrrr:evil:


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

To add to what Myates said: let's be respectful of the opinions of others and as Ilikebutterflies said, we aren't here to judge someone's grammar. We have members who come from other countries and English is not their first language so let's not be judgemental. Let's get back on topic.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

A+ to what DQ said !


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with what Mo said. I looked at RTB 's first post and he/she said they were thinking about spawning so we shouldn't assume that he/she was going to do it now. If you ask any serious breeders they'll tell you that they've made very little if any money breeding bettas. They do it because of their love for the fish. Also, when you breed you're helping to bring new life into this world. They need to be fed properly, housed properly and you have to find homes for them. And you have to have proper food for them. They cannot eat adullt food. Red, I'm not aiming this at you but to all who want to breed and think they can just crush up flakes and feed the fry that. So it takes a lot of preparation and hard work. Just my 2 cents. Lol


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## Chachi (Sep 22, 2013)

We need to remember that English isn't a primary language for some who come on message boards as well...


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## veggiegirl (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah and we need to remember why we come together on this forum in the first place, because we love bettas! grammer doesn't really come into it.......


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Ok, ok. Sorry to curly. I was having a depressing day full of being bullied and thus, my fuse was kind of short. I was kidding about the $20 and I will actually sell them for way less. Money is not a huge thing to me, I would like to earn a bit so that I can get more tanks and bettas but I would give them away for free to people here if they were I'm driving distance. I was going to bred VTs and not care about the money, if 30 people told me they wanted them and would only pay $5 than, I would be ok with that. VTs are hard to home or so won't breed them.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I can understand about having a bad day. We all have them.  And I understand about wanting to make some money. Take your time,gather your supplies and make sure you have the time to breed. There's no hurry. You're young and you have your whole life ahead of you with plenty of time for breeding.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

My only real "warning" when breeding HM's, especially with new breeders, is to not expect 100% HM offspring. You'll be getting deltas and superdeltas in likely far higher numbers than HM's.
This is just a general thing though.
My first spawn was HM's and their care wasn't a whole lot different other than taking the time to flare the jarred males to stretch their fins.

For the color choice, Turquoise, I'd say try to get a pair from a breeder who's been working with solids. Avoid red wash and such.

I don't show, so I pic based on what's attractive.
These aren't exactly turquoise, but Martinismommy is a great breeder and her lines are show-proven. She has an auction up for 2 pairs(2 males, 2 females). 
Her fish are always lovely and if I had the $50 for them I'd buy them myself.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

I would get them if I had the money!


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

good luck with your breeding ambitions. I hope when you are ready it goes well for you.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Basically I agree with what ever has been said. But allow me to clarify a few things;
HM x HM DOES NOT produce 100% HM. You will probably produce more rejects than HM - unless you start with good HM genes from the start.

1. I totally agree with Myates; breed what you want. Breeding something you dislike may discourage you before you reach goals. Make breeding as enjoyable as possible without expecting profit. 
If you go with common colors, try making them as solid as possible. Color mixes (color washes) without specific balanced patterns will not sell as much - not to hobbyists.

Regardless of how great your fry may turnout, people will not sought you out. They don't know you nor your line (fish background) thus you will have difficulty selling too many fish. You need to be known fairly quickly by entering and winning betta shows. Only then will people trust you (I'm not talking about one or two occasional selling; but regular and steady selling). Some people would even buy your culls/rejects.

2. Long finned modern types need extra care compared to short finned (comparing HM to HMPK)
Basically they ALL need good water etc etc etc. But "serious" breeders who doesn't want to chance ruining perfect fins, use spring/drink/or their own "mixture" of water. HM/OHM can generally take tap water BUT drink water or mineral water is often much better. So I can understand what curly is saying - pointing out a business perspective where every tiny cost is calculated and compared to the total gain = actual/real profit.

Eg. (My personal experience) : I can toss any HMPK with 180 or more spread in any kind of water (tap, spring, or rain) without any issues. Most don't even need daily exercise to maintain their spread. But my HM cannot take the same treatment. They can't tolerate 100% rainwater and need daily exercise. They need more water changes though they don't eat or not fed as much as the HMPKs. Some of my HM fins eventually curl/split in 100% tap water with daily water changes. 

As for space, IMO HM needs more shallow space than PK. Yes PKs are more active and would appreciate more space (they could take deeper water). They all prefer more space. But in terms of growing and thriving, IMO HM need wider shallow water.

3. Fin cutting, is a way of cheating practiced in the betta world. 
Too long/big fins are cut shorter to make breeding easier - they believe they have better numbers. But another form of cheating is to trim unbalanced fins so that it looks perfect and thus would sell higher. Then there is trimming to enter shows. These practices are even frowned upon even in Asia, including my country, but people still do them. We can only blacklist these people and avoid buying/selling to them.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

redthebetta said:


> I am thinking about starting a line of HM turquoise fish. I would like to know what one is worth before starting and if I might have trouble finding homes for them. I will be selling to to people in CA if I do spawn.


I live in CA!! 
Anyways, the value in a turquois depends on where you're selling it, too. It's hard to get what you want out of a spawn so you have to look into the genetics a bit. There are a lot of threads on that I'm sure. 

IMO, a HM turquois male would be around $8, and females would be $5. That's what I would price them at.


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

Yea, that what I'll try to get on here. I meant Canada, sorry!


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Oh  Nevermind. Plus, I saw that you're from Canada. I would never be able to afford shipping. 

Still, good luck on your breeding!


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

I would have to use a transhipper which would be a big hassle. Thanks though!


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah, plus I would be too worried about the fish. After watching a viral YouTube video, I don't trust FedEx anymore haha lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

The USPS is unreliable, too.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Hahaha Canada post is way worse. Ridiculously expensive and regularly kills fish.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

dramaqueen said:


> The USPS is unreliable, too.


Totally. My packages always come late and beat up.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I get all my fish priority and never shipped after Wednesday. Monday or Tuesday if possible. With priority they will leave it at my door whereas express they won't leave it and I have had to chase them down.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

I get mine priority/two day usps and haven't had much issue with my packages.

But I do tend to get letters/smaller packages(like cellphone batteries) popping up missing.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

PetMania said:


> Totally. My packages always come late and beat up.


I have shipped out lots of plants and a few live things only one was late and it was moss so no big deal I did ship out mid week I think Thursday. Only ship on Monday and make sure you drop off your box at the end of the day when the truck comes to pick up. I also bring the box right to the person not in the drop off. 

No shipping is perfect anything can happen. Air planes get delayed traffics happens too. But so far usps has been great for me and they need all the business they can get. No one mails things anymore only packages.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Mine were mailed on a Tuesday and I got them on Saturday. A lot of people won't mail any later than Wednesday.


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## Aluka (Dec 25, 2012)

I have learned to only ship, sat, mon, tuesday. I once mailed 60 bucks worth of plants on a wednesday and it arrived monday. All melted =(... I had to refund. not fun at all.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I was afraid mine would come Monday but they came Saturday, thank goodness. Everyone is doing well.


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