# Why am I getting ammonia?



## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Okay, I'm getting low-level ammonia readings in my tank and I have NO CLUE why.

My spreadsheet for my water parameters since I set up this tank is here on Google Drive. It's the second tab, Planted Betta Tank 1. I'm sorry, but you may need to zoom in to read it, I don't know why Google Drive is being stupid about it. It should answer any/all questions about the timeline of my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels, though.

So, my tank is 5 gallons. I used Eco Complete as the substrate, and once I had my initial plants in, I started fishlessly cycling it with liquid ammonia. Tank cycled, after a few days the stems kicked in and started sucking down nitrate faster than it was rising, everything was good. My tank sat cycled, with daily additions of ammonia, for over a week, no issue.

I got my fish and added him in, everything was dandy, and the next day my nitrate levels actually went to 0.

Then, 5 days after I added him (on the 17th), ammonia began to spike. Because it was at the same levels as chloramines put my tap at, I just added Prime instead to detoxify it, and waited until Friday (the 19th) to do a 50% water change, because I'm trying to get into a routine of Friday water changes. I also changed the baffle to a sponge baffle, and started my quest to try to get the filter baffled enough for him to be comfortable and able to move around the tank freely.

I added more plants on the 20th, stems and floaters.

The baffle was blocking some of the light from my bulb, so on the 22nd I switched to a more powerful light that also was shorter, and thus wasn't blocked by the baffle as much. The water finally got to 0 ammonia, but that didn't last. I got a MASSIVE spike in nitrates. I ended up doing two water changes to get the nitrates down to a tolerable level. Between the new light and the higher level nitrates, all the plants pearled heavily that evening. 

However, by the next day, ammonia was back up to .25ppm and hasn't dropped below that since. I've been adding Prime daily to detoxify it. Plants haven't heavily pearled since, and nitrates are slowly rising. I added more stems and floaters yesterday, and I did another 50% water change today.

Can someone help me figure this out??? I'm at my wit's end!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Are you using the API Master Test kit? If so, it doesn't differentiate between ammonia and ammonium so you can get a false positive. A lot of forums recommend getting the Seacham Ammonia test kit if you use Prime.

I ordered one and should be getting by Saturday. I'll test my tank with both kits and post the results. When I was cycling my tank it drove me crazy because I added Prime to the tank every 24 hours. Finally learned to test right before the next dose of Prime and the ammonia reading was much lower than after adding the Prime.

Don't know if this help; I hope so.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

I know that it will read positive for ammonia when using Prime. That's not the issue. I test before I change the water, and expect ammonia if I've got an uncycled tank.

The issue is that I'm getting ammonia in a tank that is packed full of plants (MANY of them stems and floaters), and the tank WAS cycled. There has been nothing done that could have crashed the cycle, and between the plants and cycle there should be NO ammonia in the tank. Nitrates, maybe if the plants aren't sucking it up as fast as it forms, but not ammonia.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Fishless cycling frequently grows a large colony of bacteria. Many keepers like this, especially if they're going to stock heavily right away. When you introduce only one fish, the bacteria die-back to accomodate the ammonia source....one fish. The colony then eats the dead bacteria producing ammonia.

Nitrate and nitrite only came from ammonia/ammonium. NH3/NH4 is what plants process first.

But you have a planted tank with healthy growing stems and floaters. I can't imagine what's up with your tank. Keep up the water changes. <sigh>


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If the colony is starving and eats the dead bacteria, creating ammonia, then wouldn't the starving bacteria consume that ammonia?


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Hallyx, I did try to tailor the fishless cycling so that I wouldn't create too much bacteria for my small filter to support. 1ppm starting dose, .5ppm maintenance daily dose until the fish was in the tank.

Yeah, I can't figure out why the filter isn't converting the ammonia and why the plants aren't keeping up with the nitrogen, and it's driving me batty to watch the tank like a hawk when I expected this tank to be mostly fine with just a weekly water change.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Hmmm, maybe try adding some more media to the filter. maybe you just need some more real estate for the bacteria to colonize.

Or maybe the turnover rate in the tank is too low.

I would test the water leaving the filter to see what it reads.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

I've completely filled up the space for media in the filter, along with adding a prefilter and sponge baffle which should add additional space for BB in addition to their intended functions. However, it started spiking before I changed to a sponge baffle and only had a water bottle baffle that in no way reduced the flow from the filter.

I can try to get some water from close to the filter tonight, but that will be tough with how baffled it is. I have a betta in the tank, and the filter is as baffled as I can get it and it's still at the upper range of the amount of current my betta can handle.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Hmmm, a single betta doesn't have that much of a bioload that a full filter would be insufficient.

Do you have decaying plant matter in the tank?


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

I try to pull dying plants/leaves. I had a small spike early on caused by a plant melting and pulled that plant, and the only other (single leaf on a) plant I've seen started dying after this current spike began. Nevertheless, it was pulled last night anyways during the water change.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I think you have to just rule out one thing at a time. I'm very curious what the water leaving the filter reads.

What do you have for a filter?

Have you tried having someone else test the water? I mean with a different test kit, not that you aren't doing it right


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

I have an Aqueon Minibow 5 gallon, and I'm using the built-in Quietflow filter. Until the separate quietflows, the cartridge for the built-in ones lays horizontal in a tray. I've replaced it with a sponge and some filter floss, then packed more sponge along the side where the outflow is to sit right up against and under the outflow.

This is what the Minibow's filter looks like:


And this is the baffle I have on it:









Unfortunately, I don't know anyone around here in the hobby. :/ The only way to get someone else to test would be to take it to Petco and Petsmart, and I wouldn't trust their tests. Heh.


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## Naladari (Jan 4, 2013)

Do you shake your test kit before using it?


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Naladari said:


> Do you shake your test kit before using it?


Only the nitrate #2 every time, but I shake the others every so often, and the inverting from all the testing I've been doing should be keeping those in solution.


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## Naladari (Jan 4, 2013)

I had the problem with having to shake the ammonia tests, I was getting some pretty odd readings.
Petco/Petsmart use strip testing.
Where are you from. General area?


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeah, that's why I wouldn't go to Petco or Petsmart for water testing. I don't trust the strips.

I live in California.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

jaysee said:


> Do you have decaying plant matter in the tank?


You know, I was thinking about that question and I remembered the IAL in there, to help with his fins. I had never heard of IAL causing ammonia spikes (pH and harness drops yes, ammonia issues, no), but I decided to check to see when that was added in case there might have been a correlation. There was nothing on the sheet about when I added it, so I did a bit of checking of dates on my email, and I received them the 18th, the second day of the spike. The first half (I broke it in half and added each half at different times) would have gone in the next day with the water change. Since that's three days after the ammonia issue started, that's unlikely to be the cause.

Bah. Another theory gone.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

jaysee said:


> I would test the water leaving the filter to see what it reads.


Tested as soon as I got home. Ammonia still at .25ppm, nitrites at 0ppm, nitrates at _40-80ppm_!!! Holy frag! I did an immediate water change. And that was after the lights had been on 4 hours, and it was 10ppm or so this morning.

What the frag is going on here?!

I know I wanted my tank low tech, but I'm thinking it won't be able to stay that way...

And I'm trying to figure out if/how I can do a different filter. I'm on a sump kick at the moment. If I can get a sump next to it, I can do both mechanical and biological filtration, and have the heater in there (though boyfish likely won't like the disappearance of his favorite hiding place).


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Honestly, I just want to cry. I went for a planted tank because it's supposed to be easier and healthier to maintain than a non-planted one. Why is it doing this?!?!I can't figure it out!

It looks like the plants are pearling more, after the water change. There's something in the water that's causing them to pearl that's getting depleted... When I did two back-to-back WC before, is when I got massive pearling from them.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Flyby Stardancer said:


> Honestly, I just want to cry. I went for a planted tank because it's supposed to be easier and healthier to maintain than a non-planted one. Why is it doing this?!?!I can't figure it out!
> 
> It looks like the plants are pearling more, after the water change. There's something in the water that's causing them to pearl that's getting depleted... When I did two back-to-back WC before, is when I got massive pearling from them.


I know people with plants say how much easier it is to maintain the tank, but I can't imagine a tank could be any easier to manage than my fish only tanks. Of course some of the plant people feel the same way. There are a limited number of variables to manage in a non planted tank. Adding plants adds to the variables, and just like in math, the more variables there are the more challenging the problems are.

If I were in your position, I would start pulling the plants out one species at a time. Again, all you can do is rule things out. There's a saying - when everything you've done is wrong, what's left is what's right. I think removing variables makes the tank less complicated, and easier to figure out the root of the problem. One of the lessons I learned from applied physics is to break a problem down to its simplest form and work with what you know to find a solution.

Before doing anything though, I would absolutely have the water checked by another test kit - even of its petsmart. Even if they use strips and not a liquid kit, there's only one thing you need to know and that's 0 is 0. Doesn't have to be very precise when all you want to see is nothing. Whether it reads 0.5 ppm or 1 ppm isn't really all that important - you're going to do a water change and then dose with water conditioner in either case. 


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

jaysee said:


> I know people with plants say how much easier it is to maintain the tank, but I can't imagine a tank could be any easier to manage than my fish only tanks. Of course some of the plant people feel the same way. There are a limited number of variables to manage in a non planted tank. Adding plants adds to the variables, and just like in math, the more variables there are the more challenging the problems are.
> 
> If I were in your position, I would start pulling the plants out one species at a time. Again, all you can do is rule things out. There's a saying - when everything you've done is wrong, what's left is what's right. I think removing variables makes the tank less complicated, and easier to figure out the root of the problem. One of the lessons I learned from applied physics is to break a problem down to its simplest form and work with what you know to find a solution.
> 
> Before doing anything though, I would absolutely have the water checked by another test kit - even of its petsmart. Even if they use strips and not a liquid kit, there's only one thing you need to know and that's 0 is 0. Doesn't have to be very precise when all you want to see is nothing. Whether it reads 0.5 ppm or 1 ppm isn't really all that important - you're going to do a water change and then dose with water conditioner in either case.


I won't be able to get to a Petco/Petsmart until next week. Things are super-busy this weekend and I'd be exhausted even without the additional care of new tanks. (Things will get done and I might have to sacrifice some other stuff to make sure the animals stay as healthy as I can keep them, but it's still a lot to do.)

I'm thinking I could also test the test kit by running tests on DI water. I keep it on hand to clean out my test tubes after each test, so it's not like I'd be running out and buying anything new. And with DI water, it's a guarantee that there's no ammonia/nitrites/nitrates, so those tests SHOULD come back 0, and if they don't then I know my testing kit is borked.

And this morning I tested leftover treated tap from last night's water change... Holy frag! the nitrates IN THE TAP were in the 40-80 color range (the two colors look identical to me on the chart). No wonder I can't get nitrates down, if that's the case.

And as far as plants adding variables... probably about 60% of the plants were added after I started having issues. I'm wondering if I'll need to add CO2, or some kind of micronutrients to boost plant growth to keep up with what's in the tank. The only growth I've actually seen is in the Anubias nana and the plantlets coming off of the java ferns. (when I bought them, there was one plantlet out of three plants. Now I have something like five planetlets...)


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I hope you get to the bottom of this - you're on the right track I think.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Okay, someone on another board I'm on pointed out that the legal limit is roughly 10ppm. I tested my tap as soon as I got home. Still at least 40ppm. Called the water company's emergency line, and an inspector is supposed to call me back.

I don't know what scares me more, if it's only my house, or if it really is a bigger problem.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Okay, so I think one of my problems is the plants aren't growing and absorbing as much N as they should be for my light and nitrogen levels.

The stems that I've had in there for a month aren't showing any increase in size. That is a bit of a red flag for me. So, nitrogen obviously isn't an issue since I'm struggling with it. Light doesn't seem to be the issue, since the day I did two water changes back-to-back, then suddenly my nitrates took a huge dive that wasn't caused by the water changes.

That leaves CO2 or other nutrients. I wouldn't think I'd have issues with micronutrients, as hard as my water is and with Eco Complete as a substrate, but I guess it's possible. Could adding liquid CO2 or ferts help with the plant growth, at least?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

From what I've read, EcoComplete doesn't need supplemental ferts. In fact it may be one reason for your nitrate problem. I don't know where to find this info. The search is up to you.

In any even, crypt and other stems are supposed to grow quickly.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

No more spreadsheet  

Rick


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Hallyx said:


> From what I've read, EcoComplete doesn't need supplemental ferts. In fact it may be one reason for your nitrate problem. I don't know where to find this info. The search is up to you.
> 
> In any even, crypt and other stems are supposed to grow quickly.


What do you mean, might be one of the reasons for my nitrate problem? It doesn't contain nitrates directly. The only nitrates in it would be from fish waste. Which, while I try to vacuum some of it up, others need to be left for plants, and I can't vacuum the tank well anyways. (either I lose substrate until the vacuum clogs up, or it doesn't vacuum up anything at all. Very frustrating.)

And Crypts are rosette plants, not stems. They and the Aubias, both the root-feeders in the tank, are the ones doing very well. It's the water column feeders that aren't doing as well. Even then, the crypts probably could be doing better... They've put out new leaves, but not really grown any taller.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Okay, took a sample of water to Petsmart and I watched and checked the colors as well when the employee tested my water. On her tests, ammonia was .5 (the next one up from 0 on her color chart), and nitrate was 20. Because the nitrates on hers were so much lower than mine, I purchased a new nitrate test kit, and just tried it out. Nitrates 20ppm.

...At least that's better than them being sky-high.

I also purchased API CO2 Booster (Neither Petco nor Petsmart carries Flourish Excel). I added one drop tonight, then will start adding it in the mornings tomorrow, slowly upping the number of drops, until I get to the full dose for my tank (10 drops, same as Prime).


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Updates updates updates.

Ammonia is slowly dropping, but still not at 0.

I've been slowly adding CO2 Booster and I started adding Flourish Complete with the water change this past Friday.

Friday the plants pearled, but nothing since then.

Nitrates are still way higher than what I'd like.

I'm working on a new filter for the tank. It'll be basically a sump filter, but with the filter next to the tank rather than below it. (I have no access to put the sump container below.) 

Here's the sump container next to the main tank, for a size comparison. It will actually be on the other side of the tank. (I'll need to move the tank over next water change.)









And a rough idea of what the filter will be like finished:









There will be sponges in there between the outflow nozzle and the rest of the tank, and the green container will hold the biomedia. The intake of the pump will sit down amongst the media and the top will be covered with filter fiber. It'll end up looking something like this:









And then the water will be pumped back up into the tank. There will be a valve to control how fast the water flows back into the tank, and a DIY spraybar (under the surface).

I'll be getting in some more plants before the filter is finished, so when I'm ready to install it, I think I'm going to cup boyfish and completely re-scape the tank. I'm not entirely sure where I'll put his cave, but I'm thinking of putting the low-light plants (especially crypts and anubias) along the left side of the tank, and the stems in the center, directly under the light. The floating plants don't seem to like this tank, so I'm thinking of getting some black craft mesh and putting that on top of the plastic flanges that are meant to hold the built-in filter. That should provide some barrier for the low-light plants, and a place where boyfish can go to get out of the light.

So, I have two decisions to make. My current light is 14watt 5000k. The only 6500K lights I can find are either 13 watts, or 23watts. My tank's lid can handle up to 25watts (I confirmed with the manufacterer). So... Do I want to upgrade the light again?

Also, do I want to cap the current Eco Complete with sand? Eco Complete, while being the size/shape of gravel and behaving as such, seems to be as light as sand when it comes to cleaning. I haven't been able to clean ANYTHING out of the gravel, and normal cleaning techniques means that the substrate gets sucked out until a large piece wedges itself into the vacuum's valve and blocks the flow. So I'm thinking it might be a good idea to cap it with sand so I can at least get some of the waste out of the tank so it doesn't overwhelm the filter. Also, the Eco Complete seems to be a bit sharp, and boyfish's tail is turning up tatttered. :/ The obvious bite marks are healing without new ones, but the tattered look worries me.

Thoughts? Ideas?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Just make sure you've got your fail safes in place - don't want water everywhere 

I can't help you with the lighting. I've no experience with the Eco complete, but I've heard it's sharp. I've also heard its not that sharp. Not very helpful, I know.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Well, I'm not drilling the tank, so the water can only drop as low as the top of the overflow...which should be roughly the top of the trim of the tank.And if that seal fails and it drops lower... it will only drop until the two levels even out, which shouldn't take much water with the size of the sump (that's one benefit of the sump being next to the tank instead of below--they can eventually even out without draining the tank).

I've heard both about Eco Complete... I've also heard both about just about every substrate out there. There's never a consensus on substrates, from what I've seen. lol


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Any thoughts/suggestions about the light?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Perhaps start another thread in the lighting section


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