# Water Changer for a 2,7G + Sick Fish + Nitrate?



## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi everybody! I bought a betta last year and kept it in a 0,5G tank (I know :-(). He (Gustave) got sick maybe 3 weeks ago... he stopped eating, move and always stayed on top of the water, on the surface.

So I changed his food and bought BettaFix (form hints form a Pet Store). Gustave went a little better, at least he ate (or try to...) after 2 weeks without eating anything.


I then decided to change (finally!) his tank... I bought a 2 gallons tank, with a heater, a filter, etc... My Betta didn't eat/move much more (he never seemed to fully recover from his "disease"). But when I changed his tank, I didn't wait the 3-4 weeks for the nitrate cycle (I just learned from it...). I use water (I wait 48h before use the water, and put some conditionner). 


Finally, I have a couple of questions :

- Is it that wrong, for the nitrate cycle? If so, what can I do?

- 2 G. Tank, with heater/filter... what should be the frequency of my water changes?

-What can I do for my Betta? He doesn't seem to have any physical scars...


PS. He always stay on top... doesn't move a lot...




Thanks a lot and sorry for the long message (my 1rst) and the mistakes/grammars (english isn't my first language...).


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## Hadouken441 (Jan 27, 2010)

Im not being mean just tryin to help. Bettafix! Waste! Scam! It literallt doesnt do anything. I dont know whats wrong with him so I cant tell ya what kind of meds he needs 

Putting him in the new tanks isnt soo bad. Just clean it and dont neglect it. Once a week half change. I wouldnt clean the whole things its a pain in my ass and you lose some good bacteria.

If he seems perfectly fine on the outside he might have a internal bacterica disease if he doesnt like moving and eating. Go to petsmart and get Maracyn. You only need the 8 pack. Try using that. Its not stressful for fish I dont care what anyone here says. I actually overdosed in my tank once and my fish didnt even give a crap.


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

Hmm I'll try to collect my thoughts here:

1) Whenever you see a medication ending in -fix, -revive, -heal, etcetera... RUN! Or at least approach with caution. Anything claiming to "fix" your fish is pretty much marketed towards newbies who have no idea what is wrong with their fish. Rarely do they "fix" anything on their own. They may help the function of another medicine but by them selves, pretty much useless. Your bettafix is nothing more than tea tree / melaleuca oil and works as an antiseptic (like rubbing alcohol that we use) but it is not an antibiotic or a true medication.

2) Given the doubling rate of bacteria, I would have to say that if it in indeed an internal infection your fish would have been dead 2 weeks ago, if not sooner. Internal infections spread quite fast and will kill a fish in a matter of days in most cases. So because your fish is still alive, I think it's more likely that he's just recovering from his smaller tank.

3) During the nitrate cycle some very harmful chemicals are produced. You will need a Master Test Kit (a set that tests ammonia, pH, nitrite and nitrate) so that you can measure the amounts of these chemicals and change the water when their levels get too high.

4) How often you need to clean your tank depends on whether you have completed the nitrate cycle. Since you are completing the nitrate cycle with the fish in the tank (called a "fish in cycle" if you want to research it more) you will need to monitor the water as per #3 and change the water according to how high the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are.

5) To help your betta I recommend that you keep a close eye on the levels of chemicals in the water (called "water parameters"). Also, if you havent done so already I suggest you buy some plants (silk or live) and buy or make a cave. Bettas do best in environments where there are lots of places for them to hide.


Good luck with Gustav and welcome to the forum! Your english is pretty good and it will only get better as you read through posts and reply to them in english


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

I already have a pH kit, but I'll soon go buy a Master Test kit! 

So if I understand correctly : I DO NOT change the water for right now? (I started the tank 5 days ago). And if so, I just have to test it (and change if the nitrate/nitrite level is too high?) for a couple of time? And (sorry ), if so... I wait for how long? 


Thx a lot for helping me (and my fish!), and BTW, GustavE takes an "e" at the end haha ;-)


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I would start changing 50% of the water every 2-3 days during the nitrogen cycle in the 2g tank with a filter and then make 50% twice weekly with gravel vacuuming or cleaning with one of the twice weekly water changes to keep the water healthy and safe for the fish. Rinse your filter media in old tank water with a water change when the water flow has slowed or twice a month by swishing it to keep the good bacteria alive and thriving to prevent mini-cycles, the filter media will look dirty and this is what you want.

When you get your test kit what you will be looking for in a cycled tank is-ammonia and nitrite 0ppm and nitrate 5-10ppm for several days.
Anytime your ammonia or nitrite read 0.25ppm or higher make a 50% water change and keep the nitrate between 5-10ppm and if it gets up to 20ppm make a good deep gravel vacuum, high nitrate can affect the immune response.
You want a stable pH and most fish will adjust to what ever your source water pH is at and you usually don't need to change it.


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

As Oldfishlady said it would probably be best to change the water every 2-3 days until you get the master test kit. Then once you get the kit you will be able to keep an eye on the water parameters and do a water change whenever too much ammonia, nitrate or nitrite is present.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

I bought an ammonia tester... is it a "Master Kit"? (I hadn't found a nitrate/nitrite kit... at Wal-Mart).

Do I need something else? I know I'm totally a newbie :-(


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

kelly528 said:


> As Oldfishlady said it would probably be best to change the water every 2-3 days until you get the master test kit. Then once you get the kit you will be able to keep an eye on the water parameters and do a water change whenever too much ammonia, nitrate or nitrite is present.


Sorry for bothering again... So, I got the kits... and I just have to change the water when the nitrite/ammonia/nitrite levels are too high? Or I do water changes twice a week whatever how high are those levels?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

When your water prams read ammonia and/or nitrite of 0.25ppm or greater make a 50% water change
When your nitrate is 20ppm or greater make a good gravel vacuum and water change
Continue with regular 50% twice weekly water changes with one of the weekly water changes to include a gravel vacuum
You know you are cycled when you have 0ppm ammonia and nitrite and 5-10ppm nitrate, but due to the size of the tank you still need to do twice weekly water changes for best fish and fin health.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

It sounds to me as if your fish may have some severely burned gills, from built-up ammonia in the 1/2-gallon. If that's the case, he may never really recover. I hope that's not it, but it sounds as though you let him sit in there 3-4 weeks without a water change (?). I cannot even imagine how much ammonia could have built up in a half-gallon over the course of a month. With a less hardy fish, it wouldn't have survived.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

I never did any water test in my ½G. tank, mainly because I didn't know a single thing about water parameters. 

But since I got my Betta, I ALWAYS do water change twice a week, especially when he was in his ½G tank.

But now, I'm going to continue (I stopped for 10 days, since I started my new tank) water changes twice a week, 50% each change as said before.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

Water changes are good. But you should still test your water.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Oh I've learned! I test the water maybe every 2-3 days, with pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test.

I just want the entire nitrogen cycle to be finally over (in a couple of weeks...)


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Hi again! 


Rather than starting a new topic, it would be easier to continue this one, since you "know" a little bit more my Betta...

Is it normal that he always stay on top of the water? Since his illness (2 months ago), he isn't able to dive underwater, he seems to struggle just to go an inch under the surface... Usually, he doesn't go under the surface at all...

Is there anything I can do? Does my tank lack Oxygen? (I have just fake plants). Or is it again an illness? 


At least he eats (even if he struggles a lot to catch his food). 
He also often swin "on his side"... like if there is one side heavier than the other... 


Thx a lot for your help!


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## Tinthalas Tigris (Jan 28, 2010)

It probably is him still suffering from his ammonia burn.

Add a tiny amount of salt to the water, if you've not already.

Alot of individuals here are against the use of aquarium salt for bettas, but I've found about 1 tablespoon of salt (Iodized, Aquarium, Kosher - these are all okay to add) per 5 gallons of water, will make the ammonia poisoning symptoms lessen. 

There is a strong chance he has had permanent damage to his swim bladder. Alternatively, he might be so sore in his gills and labyrinth organ, that he doesn't want to attain additional water or air in his body, and a little bit of salt will help. HOw much for a half gallon?

You'll be looking at using 1/10th of a tablespoon for a half gallon container. That is just a sprinkles worth. I suggest adding it directly to his next water change, letting it dissolve, and then putting into the aquarium. It is a very mild antiseptic, but alot of bettas (my own include) respond well to the presence when they're doing badly. 

best of luck, but I really recommend getting some sort of a bigger container for the little guy. I was at a second-hand store with my wife the other day and found a whole mess of amazing aquariums for 6 dollars or less, all 20 gallons or less.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It sounds like his swim bladder may be inflamed, damaged or infected from the poor water quality when you first got him and kept him in the half gallon without proper water changes, sometimes once this damage has happened it is really hard to reverse...but all is not lost and he has hope...hopefully it is just edema......

In my opinion and experience when dealing with this type of issue related to swim bladder problems not disease-it is a natural treatment with Epsom salt and daily water changes as follows:
I would put him back in the half gallon and start doing daily 100% water changes with Epsom salt 1tsp/gal, get a clean 1g jug and pre-mix the Epsom salt to make water changes and dosage easier. For the next 10 day make the Epsom salt 100% water changes.
Do not feed him for the next 3 days
If this is advanced stage broad spectrum antibiotics may be needed.

Also, salt will have no effect on ammonia in the water, however, salt can help with nitrite poisoning....


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

T. Tigris : I bought a 1½ G. (ok, it's not THAT big, but it's better than the ½G. isn't?). 


So (Oldfishlady), I remove my Betta from his 1½G. and put it back (after 3 weeks) in his old ½G.?

And what is Epsom salt (is it on sale in pet stores?). 


Thx a lot to you 2 guys for tryin' to help me (and Gustave!)


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Epsom salt (Magnesium sulfate) can be found in most stores pharmacy area, I get mine at walmart...I don't think I have ever seen it in pet shop...not to say it is not sold in them.....

Keep us updated and I hope he gets better.......can you post a pic?


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm sorry for bothering (again)... but why do I have to put my Betta back in his old (little) tank? 

Is it because there's not filter?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Sorry, I should have explained that better...

Treatment is best completed in QT or a small container, this makes it easier for correct dosage and for water changes.
You don't need to worry about filtration at this point as you will be doing 100% daily water changes

Find a clean 1 gallon jug and pre-mix the Epsom salt 1tsp/gal and dechlorinator if on city water supply, keep the jug of water and the fish in the same area so the water temps will be close. I would try and keep the water temp in the 76-78F range.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Thx a lot (again!). I will try it tomorrow or wednesday (Wal-Mart) in my ½G. 
Is it pretty serious, edema? 

And... IF it's not that, Epsom salt is not bad for bettas? (like taking meds when you're not ill)


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It is a safe product
Edema is swelling...sorry habit to use medical terms

Keep doing the daily water changes even if you don't have the epsom salt, clean water can do wonders......


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## Tinthalas Tigris (Jan 28, 2010)

YOu don't need to use an Epsom Salt necessarily. They sell these at pet stores and your local pharmacies. 

You can use regular Aquarium salt, Kosher salt, or table (iodized) salt to treat his ammonia burn as well. 1 teaspoon should be okay for your setup, but make sure you dissolve it in the water you're adding to your tank after a water change.

It is a very mild antiseptic. Rather than treating too much, it is wisest to just make changes very slowly and patiently. 

He's living, he's breathing, just treat him well, and give him a little salt to clean up his wounds, and keep his water clean.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Tinthalas Tigris said:


> YOu don't need to use an Epsom Salt necessarily. They sell these at pet stores and your local pharmacies.
> 
> You can use regular Aquarium salt, Kosher salt, or table (iodized) salt to treat his ammonia burn as well. 1 teaspoon should be okay for your setup, but make sure you dissolve it in the water you're adding to your tank after a water change.
> 
> ...


Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) and aquarium salt (Sodium chloride) are two different salts, epsom salt will help with swelling and will also work as a laxative and aquarium salt will not, both do have an antibacterial/fungal action among other actions, neither will do anything for ammonia in the water but can be helpful to heal wounds from ammonia burns, best treatment for ammonia in water is "water change"
A safe starting dosage for either salt is 1tsp/gal up to 3tsp/gal, using wrong dosages can cause resistant pathogens/parasites, long term use in some species has been shown to cause internal damage as well, treatment best for 7-10 days


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## Tinthalas Tigris (Jan 28, 2010)

Yeah, I'm familiar with the difference between Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt) and Sodium Chloride (Table/Sea Salt). I simply don't see the laxative effects of Epsom salt being necessary in the antiseptic aid of healing the labyrinth and gills, and that is my _opinion_ on the matter.


Never said anything about it treating ammonia in the water, just that it will aid the betta in healing.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

I just came back from the drug store with 4kg |) of Epsom Salt (I will have to use it in my bath, 4kg!!!). I'll try tomorrow (with his water change and with conditionner). 

I'll feed him a little bit tonight and maybe skip a day for the next 10 days (I don't know how to say that... basically, once per 2 days). 


For that I know, his water is pretty ok (but the nitrogen cycle is not building very fast... there's an ok amount of ammonia, but VERY VERY few nitrate/nitrite... after 17 days).


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm glad you listened to oldfishlady...the epsom salt was the right way to go. Regular salt will lead to water retention in your fish, which is the last thing you need right now.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

lartiste said:


> For that I know, his water is pretty ok (but the nitrogen cycle is not building very fast... there's an ok amount of ammonia, but VERY VERY few nitrate/nitrite... after 17 days).


I am not sure I understand what you are saying here.......you DO NOT want ammonia in the water with the fish......IMO you need to get your fish well and then worry about the cycle.......


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

I know. But I read on another website that, when the tank is cycling, the ammonia level (at first) is supposed to raise, and, ±10 days later, the nitrite/nitrate levels too. Then after, everything is supposed to fall and the tank is cycled.

Is that right? 

(I tested the water every 2 days, with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate tests). Everything was fine, an ammonia level a little over 0,25, which is supposed to be ok, and almost none nitrite/nitrate.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

lartiste said:


> I know. But I read on another website that, when the tank is cycling, the ammonia level (at first) is supposed to raise, and, ±10 days later, the nitrite/nitrate levels too. Then after, everything is supposed to fall and the tank is cycled.
> 
> Is that right?
> 
> (I tested the water every 2 days, with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate tests). Everything was fine, an ammonia level a little over 0,25, which is supposed to be ok, and almost none nitrite/nitrate.


That is correct, however, when cycling with fish you have to take the safety and health of the fish first IMO. 
Ammonia can burn the fish and then the long term damage from scar tissue on the gills can make it hard for the fish to breath or secondary infection from burns. 
Nitrite can affect the oxygen from being carried through the blood and cause suffocation. 
Nitrate at high level can affect the immune response. 
This can be stressful for the fish and they can become symptomatic.

With fishless cycling you don't have to worry about these issues, but cycling with fish you do IMO, when ammonia/nitrite are 0.25ppm or greater water changes need to be made until they are 0ppm IMO. Nitrate 20ppm and greater IMO water changes need to be made to keep at 5-10ppm...to keep the fish safe and healthy during cycling.

You know you are cycled when your water prams are:
Ammonia and nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5-10ppm
pH-varies and best when kept stable without chemical additives

Cycling can take 4-8 weeks, pH, water temp and oxygen level are factors

The nitrifying bacteria are sticking and adhere to everything in the tank, like the walls, decorations, plants both real and fake, in the top layer of substrate and most are in the filter media...very little are in the water column itself so water changes will not effect the cycling process, however, aggressive vacuuming more than once a week and over cleaning or changing the filter media can slow or cause a mini cycle depending on the cycling stage.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Can I change filter or not? (I read about it and it was always a bit unsure, because good bacterias stick to the filter).


Thx a lot, you're a real Betta-Encyclopedia!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

lartiste said:


> Can I change filter or not? (I read about it and it was always a bit unsure, because good bacterias stick to the filter).
> 
> 
> Thx a lot, you're a real Betta-Encyclopedia!


IMO/E it is best to give the filter media a swish/rinse in old tank water when you make your water change to get the big gunk off a couple of times a month or if the water flow slows, you want the filter media to look dirty but not impede water flow.

When I used store bought filter media I would always remove the carbon and save it and I only changed my filter media 1-2 times a year and only when it was falling apart, now I make my own with polyfill that I get in the craft department.
Most of the carbon in the media is of low quality and only active for 2-4 weeks, it won't hurt anything but it won't do anything either IMO/E

If you need to change the filter media you can cut the sponge part away and put in with the new filter media for a week or so to help seed the new filter media to prevent a mini-cycle


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Almost everywhere I read, they say Epsom Salt is very stressful for the bettas and we shouldn't let them in it for more than 60min... I put mine 30min ago... I don't know what to do! (I trust Oldfishlady, but there's a big difference between 60min and 10 days). I'm confused!


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

Have no fear, @lartiste! She seriously knows what she's doing. I've done the epsom thing, too...for periods of a week or more. It's harmless, as long as you aren't giving your fish any other medications which specifically warn you NOT to use epsom salt.


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Another question ... First, I'll put back my Betta in his ½G. Tank with Epsom Salt and everyday water change. But, my (tap and conditionned) water is pretty cold. Can I put my heater (for a 1.5gG. tank) in his old ½G. tank, laying horizontally on the bottom? The heater automatically set the temperature to 78F., so there should not be any risk of "cooking" my Betta...


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Be careful with the heater in a half gallon, even with the auto shut off they can over heat the tank due to the amount of water, what is the watts on the heater?

Also, can you adjust your tap water so the temp is a bit warmer? but use a thermometer to check the water temp...I mix my hot and cold to equalize the temp and I use one of those digital kitchen thermometer and hold it under the water and I use it for quick temp checks (it is used for fish related temps only..no food)


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

My heater is 50W. I put it in the small tank (should I remove?). I don't have a little thermometer yet, but it isn't a bad idea. But, even if I heat the entire room (which I do, it is 2-3 degres C. warmer than the rest of the house), the waer temperature "seems" colder... but the room must be 22-23 degres, so it shouldn't be THAT cold I guess... 

But there's a difference with the heater and without, that's for sure.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I wouldn't use a 50w heater in a half gallon..too risky and could cook the fish...how is he since you started the daily water changes and Epsom salt?


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Haha I was just about to post it anyway! BTW, thanx a lot for your help and support ;-).

Betta (Gustave) is doin' ok... move pretty less in the "Epsom Salted water" than in his tank... seems a little "Drowsy", like almost not moving and doing it very slowly. Seems sad duh. I removed the heater... and will put mild tap water to equilibrate the temperature. 

We're on Day 2 (the first day I put him just an hour...). 

I'm gonna feed him this sunday (after 3½days). I'm still doing water changes every 3-4 days (50%) in his 1½G. tank. I'm really considering selling this tank and buying at least 3-3.5G (maybe 5G. but I don't have a lot of room). I don't know if it'S THAT worthy though... I mean, I don't know if Gustave would be that happier/"healthy". But in my 1.5G tank there's almost less space than his ½G. (considering the fact that Gustave don't go under water anymore, and with the filter/heater...).


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## lartiste (Apr 11, 2010)

Ok I put Gustave in his 1.5G tank after 10 days (with dauly water changes) in his 0,5G with Epsom Salt. 

He doesn't look changed at all... unfortunately. So he still stay on top of the water... and he is still often laying on his side, like if his right side is kinda floating... when he moves, he comes back to normal, it's just when he rests (not always) that he's laying on his side. 


Thx a lot for your help, but I don't see what would be good to him... Is there a med or some kind of treatment?


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