# Going for the Gold



## Asiakp (Oct 25, 2013)

I am currently conditioning a pair of gold bettas to spawn. The pair are siblings, and from a great breeder here in the U.S.
I tried picking gold bettas with the best form possible for my project, and in doing so, I got a pair that are a bit lighter of a gold than I am after. My goal is to try to create dark gold bettas in subsequent generations; however, I do not intend to sacrifice form for color, so I feel like it may turn into a delicate process. 
My question is this: If I go ahead and spawn this pair in the near future, will I get varying shades of gold from which I can then pick the darkest? Or will all the fry generally come out a lighter gold like the parents? I know I should get all gold fry, just not how much variety of gold there will be. My plan was to pick the two darkest gold male and female fry and spawn them, but having never worked with golds before, I am not sure what I am facing in terms of gold variation. If anyone has worked with golds, did you get several shades of gold, or were they all generally the same shade? Or have you heard anything in regards to this from another breeder?
I haven't been able to find a spawn log that shows several different fry from the same spawn involving golds, so any input would be greatly appreciated. 
The pair is out of a gold pair, below is the father of my sibling pair, which is the breeders picture, not mine.


----------



## Asiakp (Oct 25, 2013)

And the first three are of the male I am planning on using, tried to give a good idea of his coloring in different lighting. The last couple are the female I am planning on using. Should this pair give me some darker colored fry or should I consider using a darker female with my male, or vice versa? I have a nice copper female, would that give me better results?


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you but I will follow this with interest. 
I just bought a male dumbo gold hmpk from a thai breeder and hope to breed a line of golds too. 
My really limited understanding is that gold comes from platinum x copper, so it seems to me that the copper would deepen the gold--but is that how it works? We're not mixing paint here. Sometimes the genetic interactions are more complex.
According to a research project by HENRY M. WALLBRUNN, the metallics are produced by at least 2 genes, VV (the sheen) and Ri (the spread,) but he published his research in 1957. There doesn't seem to be much reported by more recent breeders who write about color genetics. 
I wonder what the thai breeders do? Have you asked your breeder about his/her line?

Thanks!


----------



## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

You may need to look into reintroducing something with the black layer to get what you want. If you want a nice, rich gold, you'll need to enrich the deep, dark yellow so that the gold irids show up more nicely. Crossing to a BSE Yellow (Pineapple) with a nice, dark banana yellow color might help with that.


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

I can't resist--here is my new baby.
Got to find a female with really good peduncle and anal fin I think.
Any other suggestions?


----------



## Axeria (Feb 6, 2015)

Omg!! Jarabas that betta is absolutly stunning! Congrats!


----------



## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

nice pair


----------



## Asiakp (Oct 25, 2013)

Nimble said:


> You may need to look into reintroducing something with the black layer to get what you want. If you want a nice, rich gold, you'll need to enrich the deep, dark yellow so that the gold irids show up more nicely. Crossing to a BSE Yellow (Pineapple) with a nice, dark banana yellow color might help with that.[/QUOTE
> 
> the breeder I got this pair from actually has a gold with BSE right now, probably from the same spawn. Would the BSE take a long ttime to breed back out though I wonder? My male already has a tiny bit of black that I am hoping doesn't show up in the fry.


----------



## Asiakp (Oct 25, 2013)

jarabas said:


> I can't resist--here is my new baby.
> Got to find a female with really good peduncle and anal fin I think.
> Any other suggestions?


His coloring is very neat! Almost fluorescent looking lol. I think you already pointed out the biggest faults that he has formwise...there are others here that have a better eye for form that will be able to help pick a complementing female for him that will help to clean up those issues. Its always neat to see an EE that isn't some form of lavender!


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I haven't actually worked with gold . . . not enough anyway, but to my understanding your paring should produce pale-ish gold like the parents. It seems that gold breeders add something else to their line to get that intense color. But adding a copper will not work either (this I've tried). You will only get very few golds, pale-ish. Not sure what would happen if you continued the line though as I didn't continue breeding them.

Axeria: Nice!!!. You could improve him with a balanced bullet shaped body, half circle/oval shaped dorsal, and ventrals that doesn't have extended rays.


----------



## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Asiakp said:


> Nimble said:
> 
> 
> > You may need to look into reintroducing something with the black layer to get what you want. If you want a nice, rich gold, you'll need to enrich the deep, dark yellow so that the gold irids show up more nicely. Crossing to a BSE Yellow (Pineapple) with a nice, dark banana yellow color might help with that.
> ...


If it were me, I would grab that BSE gold boy and breed him to introduce a darker gold color. The reason the gold in your fish is so pale is because they have a reduced black layer which reduces the intensity of the gold.


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

jarabas said:


> I can't resist--here is my new baby.
> Got to find a female with really good peduncle and anal fin I think.
> Any other suggestions?


Jarabas, I came _this close_, to buying that boy, myself. I just love him.

I held off because I'm overwhelming myself with planned projects and don't know enough about plakats yet to begin with, much less the various types and forms, but I'm so glad to see he got a great home.

OP, I have a new "Super Gold" male from Thailand, as well as his sibling sister. They've been here a short time, and are doing well (baby manfish is working on an overachiever-type bubble nest as I type), but I'm not sure I'm going to pursue the project I'd planned with them.

Your thread interests me and I'm wondering about this pair, as they have a fabulous metallic sheen to them, and are truly the color of 14k jewelry, but the male's fins are a richer gold than his body.

The female is a tad lighter and more evenly colored.

Not sure if my crappy camera could get you good pics, and they look fairly different from the breeder's pics, but if you're curious and want to see the colors, let me know and I'll try to put them up for comparison--maybe some of the experts here will be able to say why the color is so rich on the male.


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

I'd love to see the photos--please!
I'm thinking about pming Sanya--the breeder of "our" gold boy--to ask about continuing the gold line. He's breed some very nice golds for a few years now.
Who did you get your bettas from if you don't mind my asking?


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

jarabas said:


> I'd love to see the photos--please!
> I'm thinking about pming Sanya--the breeder of "our" gold boy--to ask about continuing the gold line. He's breed some very nice golds for a few years now.
> Who did you get your bettas from if you don't mind my asking?


I got the pair from Chimplee, of Sirinutbettafarm.

I totally noticed some fabulous golds from "Interbetta," congrats on your acquisition.

I'd already bought my pair (and waaaaay too many other fish) when I saw the other golds.

My guy and girl are clearly babies, and I think they are going to be quite nice fish, just not sure if I'm going to do them justice or if I should send them on to someone really passionate about golds.

This is the breeder's photo of the male:



That is NOT what he looks like.

Either my water is very different and is affecting the fish, or my eyes are wonky, or he is changing each week as he matures, or, or, or, who can know?, etc.

But, his body is very much a gold metallic sheen, and does not appear white like in that pic, and his fins are richer by far.

I'll try to get pics here at home, in the next day or so.

Hunting for the breeder's pic of the female--that pic DOES actually look like her, but it was an attachment in an email I can't seem to find just now.

Edit to add: Oops, sorry for the flipped sideways pic--I stink at tech stuff.


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

Hey, no worries re tech stuff. 
He's quite a nice boy--nice round silhouette, bullet shaped body. 
From what I've read, their color deepens as they mature, so what you are saying makes sense.

Sirinutbettafarm gets a lot of praise. I think you scored! And I know what you mean about not doing them justice. I am relatively new to bettas so I'm a bit daunted by spawning. 

I used to breed seahorses and they are pretty self sufficient as long as they have pristine water and live food and you are around to scoop the babies out as they are born, to save them from their hungry parents. 

We'll do ok I think.


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

jarabas said:


> Hey, no worries re tech stuff.
> He's quite a nice boy--nice round silhouette, bullet shaped body.
> From what I've read, their color deepens as they mature, so what you are saying makes sense.
> 
> ...


Picture my dogs looking at me funny, as I bow down to a computer monitor...Seahorses?

Wow, you're more woman than I!

I did various saltwater set-ups, for years, but never tried anything approaching that labor-intensive.

Thanks for the compliments on the gold dude--I was trying hard to buy with my head, not my heart, and I saw few glaring faults with him.

He actually had a delay in getting here and looked far more stressed than I like to see a fish after shipping, but bounced back beautifully and seems very "house-proud," constantly maintaining a rather ostentatious nest.

I can't wait to see what you do with your EE boy.


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

Me too. I am not sure how to think about finding a female.
Probably the thing that makes the most sense is to just get a girl from Interbettas and ask Sanya to pick a good candidate for me. I've been told I could also try any metallic female and should look for really good finnage. There's not much online to choose from just now. I won't try the spawn until mid-June. I have a trip coming up in early June to get through first.
When are you thinking to spawn yours?


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

jarabas said:


> Me too. I am not sure how to think about finding a female.
> Probably the thing that makes the most sense is to just get a girl from Interbettas and ask Sanya to pick a good candidate for me. I've been told I could also try any metallic female and should look for really good finnage. There's not much online to choose from just now. I won't try the spawn until mid-June. I have a trip coming up in early June to get through first.
> When are you thinking to spawn yours?


I don't know if I'm even going to spawn them, actually. I have one spawn planned for late May/early June, some of the timing depends on what is going on with live food sources for the fry.

I'll be occupied with that spawn for a few months, clearly, and had sort of played around with the idea of using the gold male on one of the nicer daughters from that spawn, and putting his gold sister with the blue/yellow bi-color male I'm doing the first spawn with.

I want to see how that bi-color male produces, though, so will need to grow babies out for a while, and evaluate further at that point. I also will need to evaluate my sanity, at that point, and see if anyone WANTS me to continue :lol:

I am interested to see if OP gets any more feedback on keeping a rich, darker gold as the generations go forward--my female is very pretty, but I would not want her a whole lot lighter, so would probably not be thrilled with daughters of hers who were more pale.


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

Here is the female:





She is actually a tad richer in gold, than in those photos, as well, but not like her brother. I would not want her any lighter than she is, but she is a pretty girl.


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

I agree--very pretty. I'll look forward to following your projects!
I have a koi hmpk x koi hmpk in my spawning tank right now--fingers crossed.
She's in the chimney shimmying and bowing and he's being a little hooligan running full tilt into the glass trying to bite her. We'll see what the morrow brings...


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

jarabas said:


> I agree--very pretty. I'll look forward to following your projects!
> I have a koi hmpk x koi hmpk in my spawning tank right now--fingers crossed.
> She's in the chimney shimmying and bowing and he's being a little hooligan running full tilt into the glass trying to bite her. We'll see what the morrow brings...


I'm really becoming enamored of the hmpk tribe ;-)

Want to learn more about them, in future.

Funny about your pair.

Perhaps he is a total gentleman, and is biting the chimney, simply trying to free his damselfish in distress. (Riiiiiight.) :lol:


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

Look what I scored today.

Hopefully these golds will be better at spawning then my koi!


----------



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

jarabas said:


> Look what I scored today.
> 
> Hopefully these golds will be better at spawning then my koi!


OOoooh, that _is_ a score.

I really know nothing about EE HMPK form, but many of them just sort of seem lacking in something, balance maybe, dunno, but I like those.

And as someone else already said, it's nice to see EE in something different than lavender.

I just bought an EE mustard female that I really, really like, but she's a HM.


----------



## jarabas (Mar 23, 2015)

Congrats!
I love the way those fins flutter.


----------

