# very sick betta with fin rot on face



## ggg777 (Apr 19, 2012)

Please help - I have a betta that I've had for several years. He's been fine until a few months ago. He started with finrot - it was very black on his tail, and now he has a spot on his face. I've tried kanacyn as directed for three treatments, then waited and tried maracyn plus for three treatments, when the kanacyn didn't work. Then I tried water changes and aquarium salt, but it just keeps getting worse. The one on his face is bad. I'm posting pictures. He's having trouble swimming straight up, but he still eats and swims and moves around. I've had bettas for 12 years, but have never seen anything like this. If you have any ideas, I'm open. He is in a bowl and gets water changes several times a week. My other two bettas are fine.

Thank you in advance for any help...


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i've never seen anything like this. o-O it looks like he was burnt, with fire... poor boy. exactly how many years have you had him?


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Please fill out this form the best you can.



> Housing
> What size is your tank?
> What temperature is your tank?
> Does your tank have a filter?
> ...


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Try Pming Sakura8 or OldFishLady for advice...
I have never seen anything like that on a betta...

when you added the salt, did you disolve it first and how much did you use?
He looks like a peice of burnt out wood


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry your guy is having some problems. I've never heard of fin rot moving to the face like that. He looks like a little grease monkey.  How is his behavior? Is he eating still and acting normally? Do his fins seem to be disappearing at a fast rate?

You said you've had him for several years? Do you know exactly how long? If it is over 2 or 3 years, I would guess that his age may be playing a part in this. As bettas age, they do undergo changes. Many start to change color or their fins become more brittle. 

Try treating him with the kanamycin again. Although the package says up to 3 treatments, it is okay to treat him for up to 14 days with kanamycin. If you can find it, add API Tetracycline to this as well. 

Definitely let us know what kind of water conditioner you use, too.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Is his bowl his normal tank?


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

that's doesn't look like fin rot, it looks like tissue necrosis. please answer/fill out the questionair and the questions asked and we can try to help you.


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## ggg777 (Apr 19, 2012)

*thank you all*



LionCalie said:


> Please fill out this form the best you can.


He is in a 1/4 gallon bowl, like my other bettas, who have lived quite some time - years.

I only use Deer Park water in the bowls, which I change every 4-5 days. 

They are fed Hikari Betta Biogold - 3 pellets a day.

I don't use additives - I used to, but found with the Deer Park that I didn't need it.

This betta is about 3 years old. He's been fine up until the finrot. 

It started after we had a very bad power outage here in PA in October. The temp in the house dropped to 53 (the room the bettas were in was about 65 at the lowest). We left after 2 days and went to a friend's house. The temp there was normal - they had electricity. The dog, fish and I moved in for about 4 days, until the power came on. The other two fish were fine, but this one started with the finrot. I have tried the meds I knew about. I can try adding Kanacyn again. But it didn't seem to help much. I had a betta with finrot years ago. After treating him, he lived several years - his fins grew back white. But this doesn't look at all like what he had. This is so black and it's now on his face. I can't seem to find any pictures like this online. I have no idea what it is or how to treat it. I have had many bettas in the past. At one time I had 9. Since I got the dog, I have only had 3 bettas at most at a time. I would only have 1, but I rescued two others. He is the oldest of the three. I'm so sad about this little guy - he is really a wonderful betta. Loves attention, etc. 

He has still been eating, but he swims less. He seems to have trouble managing without the fins. And now with the awful spot on his face, I can't figure out what is going on.

Someone mentioned tissue necrosis - I've never read about that - I've treated many bettas for many different diseases, but this I've never seen. Please explain tissue necrosis and what meds to use to treat it...

Again, thank you for your help, in advance. I really don't want to loose him. His name is Placido...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It could be tissue necrosis, as cajunamy said but if so, it's not a form I've seen before. Usually, tissue necrosis is more gray. I wonder . . . could he have somehow gotten a form of fish frostbite after that power outtage? For us, 65 doesn't seem very low but for a tropical fish who is used to temps of 78-80 on average (and can happily tolerate up to 86), 65 might well have damaged his fins. Now that you've mentioned the temps, I dunno, the damage almost looks like the toes of someone who was stranded on Everest. 

My first recommendation is to start on daily water changes. The cleaner the water, the less likely his fins will become severely infected. 

Next, even though your water is good and doesn't need a water conditioner, I would highly suggest you use Seachem Prime because it neutralizes extra ammonia. In a very small bowl like the one he is, the ammonia builds up very fast and Prime will help keep him more comfortable.

Do you think you can find some clean, naturally dried oak leaves? If so, grab a handful, rinse in tap water, and then crumble a few into the water so it turns tea-colored. This will release beneficial tannins into the water that will help him heal and fight off his infection. Add in a quarter teaspoon of aquarium salts, predissolved in some tank water beforehand. Continue treating with AQ salt for 14 days with daily water changes.

Finally, I would recommend getting him at least a 2 gallon bowl simply because you won't have to change the water so often. In a .25g bowl, the water needs to be changed every day to help keep ammonia down. If you get a 2 gallon bowl, you will only need to change it twice a week. 

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

> could he have somehow gotten a form of fish frostbite after that power outtage?


When my fishies froze in the Yukon, none of them turned black like that. All 20 of them retained their normal color and they were subjected to temps that were at least -20F plus windchill from the stupid open backseat window :evil:


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

Tissue necrosis might start as gray, but left untreated (though I have no idea how you'd treat it besides cutting it off, which you can't very well do to his face) I'm pretty certain it will turn black. Dead tissue and all. I have frozen fish as a form of culling before and they don't get frostbite in the sense any part of them turns black.

I know you think that keeping your fish in those small containers has worked fine in the past, but I do not think it is an adequate home at all. At 1/4 gallon, you should be giving the fish daily water changes. Have you ever checked their water for ammonia after a couple of days? You say you change the water every 4-5 days - the ammonia would read off the charts by then 

The best thing you can do for this fish is keep him in warm stable pristine water. Around 80F constantly, and daily water changes. 

Even if he lives through this, he will retain some form of issues from the ammonia filled water he's been in all his life. A betta might live a couple years in these conditions but they do not thrive. They do not show their full vibrant colors and dance around for you like a little puppy dog.

Now before you or anyone else goes calling me rude or mean, I am not and I do not intend to be. These are simple facts that I have learned and experienced. I only try to provide people with the correct information and correct mistakes so that the fish can thrive and live a very happy life.


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## ZackyBear (Dec 1, 2011)

If the ammonia is high enough it can literally burn off their fins!


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

Also, you aren't using water conditioners, which is ok for r/o water, but I would add in something that will help promote slime coat. Stress Coat is a good one, it has aloe vera in it. Prime also has something for slime coat. Another idea for you is to give him a good, varied, protien rich diet. Frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, glassworms, live wingless fruit flies, & betta pellets is what I use. The pellets are my staple, they get that once a day, and the other feeding is from one of the frozen or live foods that I have on hand. It keeps them healthy, happy and vibrant. NO freeze dried anything, as it will cause bloating. I wouldn't even feed it to my fish pre-soaked. I much rather feed frozen. If you can find garlic guard or garlic xtreme(which is what I have as a lps carries it) soak his food in that, it will help boost his immune system and most go crazy for the flavor.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I'm not a fan of telling people to upgrade their tanks, but cajunamy is right about the ammonia levels. I know alot of people have the mindset that it's "just a fish" and pet stores don't help by selling tanks that are way too small and giving people the wrong information (like goldfish can really live in a goldfish bowl) but you would be doing your fishie friends a world of good if you could get him into something a little bigger. I know alot of people don't have room for big tanks or have the money to spend on them, but even a 1 gallon would be a vast improvement for your little fellow - more room to swim, you can add in a silk plant and a cave for him to hide in and less water changes for you. You can even get him a small heater so he stays nice and warm. Granted, many will still tell you its too small, but as long as water quality is kept up - it will be a vast improvement over .25 gallons :-D


OOOH - storage containers work well too and are alot cheaper


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

cajunamy, don't worry, you aren't being rude. And thanks for the info about the tissue necrosis. I guess I've only ever seen it in the early stages and then the betta died so it never progressed to black. 

And haha, yeah, the frostbite idea was a little farfetched. I think my brain needed food (energy) to function when I thought of that. 

I do agree with Tikibirds, plastic storage containers like Sterilite and Rubbermaid work well as tanks as long as they are new and haven't had any weird substance stored in them.


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

Storage tubs are excellent if you can't afford a nice tank. You can still see into them.

For me the issue here is more that the water isn't being properly maintained, no matter what the size is. Water quality is the single most important thing for your fish. Imagine if you lived in your own waste that you are unable to clean, for that long in a tiny space. The air would become toxic and make you sick too. Where more space comes into play for me is if you are unable to perform daily water changes or even every other day water changes. You get something bigger so that the water doesn't foul so quickly, and you can wait your 4-5 days.

The fish's problem has come from poorly maintained water. When the water is high in ammonia, bacteria will bloom. Parasites will move in. They attack the living tissue of the fish. And it doesn't get any better until the water is pristine and warm on a daily basis. Perhaps if the water is kept very clean and nice and warm, the fish can start to fight off whatever this is and the black tissue will fall off?

I find it interesting that the OP hasn't come back here. I hope they are not embarrassed or so set in their own ways they are not willing to do better by the fish. I am not telling the OP to get a bigger tank, unless they can not perform the required water changes, then my suggestion is a bigger tank. However ultimately it is this person's life, and fish and we can only give them our knowledge. What they do with it is up to them.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, I agree with you, cajunamy. Ultimately, I will always go with water quality of water quantity (ie, bigger tank and more gallons).


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

It looks like a chemical burn, this happened to my girls and I didn't realise what it was!Basically if you use chemicals (hairspray, cleaning fluids) too near to your fishes tank the chemicals can get into the tank especially if you have a filter, do you use any chemicals in paticular near to your tank?


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## ggg777 (Apr 19, 2012)

*Thank you all*

Thank you all - I was having trouble finding your messages. I am not at all upset by your postings. I know you are all trying to help. 

Please let me explain why I have done what I've done. Feel free to comment however you like, but if you understand my situation, perhaps you will understand why I am doing this.

In the early days of having bettas, I had gallon bowls for all of them. The water was changed every 3 days. I had about 6 additives for the water - I used tap water then, and used every additive I could find. 

Even with all this, I had fish with finrot, with fungus, with dropsy. Fish die eventually, even as we all do. I did my very best to keep them healthy. I tried using some of the foods you mentioned but back then the fish didn't do well with blood worms and brine shrimp - it was too rich for them. At least, that's what I found. They did better with the normal fish foods. I realize that everyone's experience is different, but in ten years, that's what I found with the fish. 

then in 2000, I had to have spinal surgery. I'm not allowed to lift alot, so I was really happy when I found the fish were seeming to be ok for long years in the smaller bowls with the plain water. They don't seem to be suffering - they are happy, swimming around, playing. Except for the one sick one, they are fine, even after the power outage.

I have read online for many years about treatment for bettas - there is always controversy about which way to treat them. It doesn't seem to be an exact science, and even with all the best treated water, tanks, filters, etc, I have seen many people with diseases and problems with their bettas. I feel fortunate that I can still enjoy my little guys. My main concern is this little one, who has obviously got something that no one, including myself, can recognize, even after all the fish I've had. 

If my body were in better shape, I could handle a gallon bowl, but I can't. So I will try the more frequent water changes for him. We also have a really good aquarium store in the area, and as it is warm out today, I think I will take him for a ride up to the store and let them look at him and see what they think it is. They are very knowledgeable. If I get some answers, i will certainly post them. In the meantime, I will go prepare the water for his change tomorrow. And I will look for the one additive that was mentioned to keep him more comfortable. I still want to find out if there is some medication that will help. 

again, thank you all for your time and comments. If you think of anything else, please let me know. I apologize for my physical limitations, but I am trying to do the best for these little rescued bettas...


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## Fieldz (Apr 6, 2011)

5 Gallons costs 25-30 dollars and are not that tall. And having a 5 gallon tank would be much better to you. Why? because you would have to do a 20% waterchange every 2 weeks or maybe once a month if you had many plants in it!

You should feed 5-6 Hikari pellets daily because they are a bit smaller than the other brands.

Turn your temp to 79F and put half a teaspoon of Aq. Salt in his water to help recovering faster. You MUST do 100% waterchanges daily so the bacteries dont propagate in the water if its any kind of disease like finrot. 

The burning marks in his face can also be because of the very low temperatures. Humans get burnt in low temperatures, so why wont the fish?

Good luck with your fish. Its your choice to try to help him or not.


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## ggg777 (Apr 19, 2012)

*update*

First, I just got back from the Aquarium store. They were so nice and beyond helpful. They looked up information in a fish disease book they had, and all agreed that it looks like there is an internal tumor - cancerous. They think it has spread and that is what is causing the mass on his face. But to be sure, they took pictures and Monday will contact one of the major fish supply companies, where they know a person who is a graduate in fish disease studies. They will let me know Monday nite what they find out. In the meantime, on their advise, I'm not going to do anything except water changes and aquarium salt until they find out what is wrong(that is what they recommended.) They said that the fact that both my other fish are fine means that I have to be doing something right. 

Secondly, I have read every post by every person here and I very much appreciate everyone's time and concern. But I am finally offended by the last post. I am not crazy. I have been dealing with pets for a long time, and would never do anything to hurt my animals. I have spent alot of time and money taking care of my pets over the years. I would certainly never judge someone as harshly as I have been judged for attempting to do the right thing for my animals. If I didn't care so much, I never would have asked for help on this site. The additives I used were Novaqua, Amquel, Aquarium salt and Blackwater Extract. I'm sorry - there weren't six. There were four. And my bettas lived for quite some time - all 9 of them. By your standards, they may not have lived as long as you would have liked, but by my standards, and other people that I know that have bettas, they were pretty long lived and happy little bettas. 

So for the people who have tried to be helpful, thank you so much. I will post an update on Monday when I get an answer from the experts at the fish company. 

At this point, my fish made the trip back and forth to the store to be evaluated and is still swimming around and very happy. If it is cancer, there was very little I could have done about that. I will continue to do everything I can for him.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

> Use 6 additives? Are you crazy or what??? Never do that again! You only have to use a single and good brand of water treater. I do suggest using Prime or Betta AquaSafe.
> 
> 5 Gallons costs 25-30 dollars and are not that tall. And having a 5 gallon tank would be much better to you. Why? because you would have to do a 20% waterchange every 2 weeks or maybe once a month if you had many plants in it!
> 
> ...


Please tell me you are a kid and don't know any better..because that is *VERY* rude :evil: If you read any of the other posts you would of seen that Frostbit was ruled out as a reason for black spots and the OP said they are not able to lift much weight. 

AND even if they got a 5 gallon tank, they would still need to do two water changes EVERY WEEK - one 50% and one 100%. If you have an ESTABLISHED FILTER that has completed the nitrogen cycle, you still need to do a water change EVERY WEEK of about 50%. Changing 20% every 2 weeks is NOT going to be enough, unless you have a forest growing in your tank.

To the Opening Poster:



> The additives I used were Novaqua, Amquel, Aquarium salt and Blackwater Extract


 I don;t know what Novaqua is but there is nothing wrong with using Amquel and blackwater extract. 

I used to put AQ salt in with every change but then I read that it wasn't good for them to have salt with them all the time, so I stopped. There is conflicting info - some say - yes, it will stop illnesses and others say no, it can cause organ damage and shouldn't be used for more then 14 days at a time. 

Just a thought- but if you did go with a 5 gallon, Would you be able to handle the water changes using a small gravel vaccume? You can suck out a little bit of water at a time so it would be easier to lift. If you added a filter, when it was done establishing the nitrogen cycle - you would only need to remove about 2 gallons a week, and it wouldn't have to be all at once. you can break it up into smaller changes throughout the week. It wouldn't be much more work then you are already doing now....

PS - if you do decided to do the 5g, aim for a gravel vaccume that has the bulb thing that you squeeze on it, otherwise you would have to "pump" the vaccume part up and down in the water and it can be a real PITA to get the water flowing


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi ggg. I'm sorry to hear about your back. I understand how changing water must be difficult. Just a random suggestion/addition to the other ideas put out there:

Place a 5 gallon tank near a sink (or even a window you can open!). Use a gravel vac/siphon to remove half the water once or twice a week, draining it into the sink/window so you don't have to deal with buckets and heavy lifting. Since it's close to the sink, hopefully refilling it won't be too hard on you.

Otherwise, the size tank you have will suffice if you can change the water frequently.

I'm glad you've found a helpful fish store with a good knowledge base. It does seem like those are hard to come by. I'm not 100% sure I agree on the tumor part, as I don't see an actual tumor but I will always bow to others who may have more knowledge than me.  

Finally, I recognize the additives you use. Novaquel and Amquel are both water conditioners and Blackwater extract is a water softener/tannin addition. 

To be honest, there is no rhyme or reason sometimes to fish. I understand what you mean about how you kept the fish with all the water conditioners etc and they still got sick. Sometimes it can seem frustrating to us hobbyists when we do everything right and the fish still go south on us. 

Good luck and do please keep us updated on what the fish store has to say.


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## ggg777 (Apr 19, 2012)

*thank you both*

I just want to say thank you to you both for you last comments. I really appreciate them. I was thinking there might be an internal tumor - you really can't see it in the pictures, but when the men looked at him, it's pretty clear that there is a black mass below his fins under the head. It also matches a picture they had in the store from their book. We'll see what the experts say, and I'll post any information I get on Monday.

Again thank you so much...


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## FuulieQ (Jan 10, 2010)

That is so strange... I've never seen anything like it. It almost looks like black mold or something!

I hope the fish experts can help you out. In the meantime I'll just echo what everyone else said - keep his water extra warm and clean. It might also be helpful to give him something floating to hide in or sit in.


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