# The Halfsun Project



## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

*Project Start Date:* 7.25.11
*Confirmed Male:* N/A
*Confirmed Female:* N/A

Hello everyone and welcome to my breeding project. You might notice up top that the date to put this project into motion is a bit off. This is also subject to be moved back however I have a lot of free time in July and would be a good time to get stuck cleaning a million jars. Also I would like to make sure that I have time to make sure I'm doing things right with my boys before I do something silly like breed. 

I don't like doing things half-arsed and if I start this I'm going to finish it. Hopefully with good results. 

Okay that mess aside. I am enamored with Half-Sun bettas but finding them is annoying or pricey. Also being of sound mind I would like to dedicate myself to wishing in a few months that I had never started doing this and whining as I clean cute fishie tanks anyways <3 

So here is my *questions* to all of you breeders that I've yet to get definitive answers on [or they might just be more speculation but I want to hear it]

1. Has anyone noticed a trend in Male or Female genetics carrying stronger then the other - i.e tail type? 
2. Would you suggest similar rayed fish for this process? I was going to look for a CT with a good amount of rays [like 4] to try to support the HM gene. 
3. To get a strong line going I'd have to in-source other lines to prevent massive inbreeding. Should I start with multiple pairs so when I do cross a new line in they are also showing the HS gene? If so how many?
4. This one is just personal opinion - what color fish would you like to see this done with c: 

I am well aware this is a large undertaking. Also I'm aware that the IBC or w/e isn't fond of them. No preaching T.T 

_This post is not about the set up/food/ect I will be obtaining. Nor about ethics and so on. Before I start this I will have everything obtained and sorted._​


----------



## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

In before I get yelled at for making more mutt fish. I am only trying to make a legitimately healthy line of fish. If this gene proves to be overall detrimental to the species or unable to hold without genetic problems [like spine or swimming issues] the project will be promptly discontinued. *don't eat me -hides- *


----------



## JKfish (Apr 8, 2010)

Wow. This is interesting. I can't offer you much info seeing as I know close to nothing about betta genetics, but Instead of breeding crowntails to halfmoons, seeing as not many crowntails are halfmoons, would it be easier to start with halfmoons with slight web reduction?http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=1007 I read that about a week ago, and reading this made me think of that.


----------



## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I highly suggest you join the IBC, especially since your taking your time. Before choosing your fish you should learn what makes a perfect halfmoon and what makes a perfect crowntail and then find stock that are (or are near) perfect. There is so much information available to you once you join.

I know you said no preaching but IMHO the best way to go about this would be to choose nice halfmoon stock, get a decent line of HMs going and THEN incorporate your web reduction after a few generations. I think it might save you a lot of culling.

Just making sure, are you prepared for the massive amounts of culling you'll have to do to achieve this? For the first generations you are going to have to cull very hard.

My best piece of advice is to get reading. You need to learn exactly what makes an excellent specimen and how to achieve the phenotype you want.


----------



## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

I think it's wonderful that you're doing it VERY responsibly and professionally. 

Good luck with everything and keep us updated!


----------



## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

@1fish2fish

I was thinking about joining the IBC to get the real solid advice on stock once I had this project a bit more solidified. Also thats not preaching hun I meant whiny posts that aren't helpful at all. You offered solid advice that I'm taking into serious consideration c: . The reason I put off the start date for the actual breeding for almost a year is so I could do a lot of in depth research to get the best results possible with as little heartache. 

I am prepared to cull as well - severely. I understand that only a very very few of the spawn [if any at times] will be good for continuing the line. I knew this when I decided on this project and am prepared for it and to do it humanely. 

@doggyhog

Thank you c: I'll be sure to keep updates on plans and of course when I get the starter parents to begin the project.


----------



## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

You sound like you are well on your way. Joining the IBC now would give you a heads up on genetics, etc. There is some really detailed information available to members.


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Good luck with everything.


----------



## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I tried breeding halfsuns when I first started, not so good :/ 

Now that you've done a lot of research I'm sure you'll do great 

Cant wait to see all the results


----------



## purplemuffin (Aug 12, 2010)

Good luck!! Gosh, I would love it if there was a healthy line of halfsuns..They are really pretty(at least only one I've ever seen... In this forum's tail images section! Looked like a dragon!)


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm not really sure what halfsuns are. I'm guessing it's a HM with specific red-butterfly coloring. In terms of fin shape:



> 1. Has anyone noticed a trend in Male or Female genetics carrying stronger then the other - i.e tail type?


IME if you use a rounded tail HMF you will get few perfect HM. So I highly suggest that you use at least super delta F (by HM/sdT are those with pointed edges not rounded).
​


> 2. Would you suggest similar rayed fish for this process? I was going to look for a CT with a good amount of rays [like 4] to try to support the HM gene.


I would not suggest different tail types because it will only burden you with much more work. It would be easier to use similar tail type. Once you have a line you're satisfied with, then you can experiment.
Creating a line with one tail type is difficult enough. And mixing tail types, specially CT, will ruin HM/PK/dT genes. CT genes, although often recessive, yet is often visible on HM's (often the fins have tiny protruding rays - the seeds of CT).
If you insist on mixing, try doing it with HM x PK x DT or VT. It would be a lot of work but if you succeed, you will get better body form (PK), better fin spread (DT) and longer fins (VT). I would not suggest it though because it would be cheaper and easier to buy a high dollar pair and continue their genetics.

​


> 3. To get a strong line going I'd have to in-source other lines to prevent massive inbreeding. Should I start with multiple pairs so when I do cross a new line in they are also showing the HS gene? If so how many?


IMO you only need 2 - 3 pairs. Selectively breed them until F3, then cross breed between them (one tail type). Or you can inbreed offspring to parent and breed the results to F1. The key to creating a solid line is extreme selection. Read more so you don't apply "what if" to your breeding.​


> 4. This one is just personal opinion - what color fish would you like to see this done with c:


 This is too personal. So it's up to you - which colors do you like most. But as a side note, I would suggest you start with solid colors. Later you can introduce new colors/variations. IMO/IME it's easier this way - instead of trying to clean out certain color genetics.
​​


----------



## Capricorn (Sep 4, 2010)

Good luck! I'm glad that you're doing research beforehand.


----------



## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Indjo... "Halfsun" is a name for a "tail type" (although I don't consider it a true tail type). It is a mixture of HM and CT where you only have a slight web reduction instead of a 50% web reduction like a true CT would. 

Pretty much its a pretty name for combtails. This look could probably even be achieved without using CT at all if you just selectively bred fish with slight web reduction.


----------



## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

The main problem is going to come in with getting a good amount of reduction without the tails kind of collapsing or looking like a mess. I've seen wonderful examples of this from some breeders though but I don't know how well this holds. Something I plan to ask and find out before embarking as well. 

Thanks for the support guys and I'll be sure to do research into the best method of 'attack' before diving in I promise <3


----------



## nochoramet (Oct 2, 2009)

I think you're doing a great job, much better than some people who just throw their fish together and hope for the best.
I'm excited to see how it goes!


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> *Pretty much its a pretty name for combtails.* This look could probably even be achieved without using CT at all if you just selectively bred fish with slight web reduction.


Ok, thanks for the info. 
I agree with 1f2f, you can get halfsuns without mixing HM with CT (HM's often carry CT markings), thus avoid numerous culling. 
Either way, I suggest you use full size breeders so you are sure what the parents look like (CT/combtails rays/webbing often change as they get older). Sorry I can't give specific steps because it's been yrs since I was forced to work with CT's (no choice).


----------

