# Help please! Smelly bubbles coming from substrate



## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I've had my NPT set up for coming on three months now. Was told I wouldn't need to poke at the soil as it's capped with very fine gravel. I was siphoning out some snail poo in some hard to reach places with a turkey baster when I bumped the gravel a little roughly and some large bubbles came out. There was a smell of sulpher, not overpowering but there. Plants are all healthy. Betta and snails seem fine. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all at 0.

So what should I do? Poke until all the bubbles come out? Remove fish and snails before doing so? 

Is the only cause of smelly bubbles substrate going bad? I've heard npts can bubble for the first few months as everything settles. Could it merely be bubbles that were trapped under the substrate and smell like sulphur from whatever is in the dirt? It's miracle gro organic potting soil if that helps.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Any advice would be welcome... I'm freaking out a bit


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I read on another website that releasing a small amount of the gas and then doing a large water change should be alright. I did that 45 mins ago and all seems to be well. Had about 8 smaller bubbles come up before it stopped. Only in two parts of the tank that I hadn't realized I wasn't reaching well and which had an accumulation of nerite poop. Should I invest in some MTS or just poke the substrate with every water change?


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Depending on the footprint on the tank I'd recommend 1-4 Malaysian trumpet snails (if you get 2 or more they will multiply over time), I've kept some in my soil with sand capped bubble bowl and ever had gas bubble issues. I also keep them in all my sand tanks so I don't have to do the poke/chopstick thing. I'd be very warry about the gas bubbles, they will kill shrimp, and can kill fish depending on how much is released into the water. I don't beleive the gas would show up on an ammonia test kit, I might be wrong but I think its methane (but I might be remembering that part wrong), and any soil based tank (doesn't matter the cap) will have break down of the organic compounds in the soil which overtime will lead to buildup of this gas. Movement of the substrate helps deter larger pockets of it building up which can be lethal when released into the water column.
If you can't get MTS quickly just use a chopstick or fort and poke the substrate (don't stir) at the beginning of your water change have the siphon in the tank right by the utensil used to suck up any poo or gas that comes up.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thank you! I released several more bubbles today and did a pretty large water change right after, rearranging the decor afterwards to minimize the amount of substrate covered by large rocks. There are a few red cherry shrimp still alive in my tank, and betta seems fine. I'll definitely look into some MTS and I'll keep poking and changing the water every other day or so until the bubbles are gone.


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## kittenfish (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't know who told you you don't need to poke the substrate but that's not true unless you have MTS.



Aqua Aurora said:


> Depending on the footprint on the tank I'd recommend 1-4 Malaysian trumpet snails (if you get 2 or more they will multiply over time)


Actually, MTS clone themselves, so you only need one for them to multiply.


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

When the tank was originally set up NPT, did you manually aerate the soil/substrate? If not, it could've stored up gases under the substrate. 

I would caution against too many water changes as it can crash the eco-system. Closely monitor the water parameters and visible, physical health of the fish/occupants until the tank stabilizes itself.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I think I was told that since I have gravel as a cap over my dirt, I wouldn't need to poke. But I could be remembering that totally wrong. I ordered 2 MTS just now and hopefully that will help things. I shall poke on.

How exactly does one manually aerate? I'm not sure what that is. Since the bubbles smelled of sulfur but didn't REEK, maybe it was just gas trapped underneath. 

Since beneficial bacteria live in the filter and on decor, I was under the impression that it would be hard to crash the cycle with water changes. I was intending to every other day poke at the substrate and if bubbles come out, do a 50% water change to get rid of possible sulfur.

Plants, 3 little shrimps, 2 nerites, and betta are fine.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Also, not sure if this is important or not, but the bubbles were not tinged with any color.


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

Manual aerating is just poking the substrate. I used a bamboo skewer and randomly poke holes. Pretty much like you're testing a cake. 

FYI, the gravel cap is to keep the dirt in place.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

SunnyCydUp said:


> I would caution against too many water changes as it can crash the eco-system.


If this were true I'd have a thousand gallons of dead fish. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with changing too much water, provided it is treated properly for the disinfectants that may be added by the supplier, and matches the tank parameters within reason.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

SunnyCydUp said:


> Manual aerating is just poking the substrate. I used a bamboo skewer and randomly poke holes. Pretty much like you're testing a cake.
> 
> FYI, the gravel cap is to keep the dirt in place.


Oh I getcha. I did that for the first few weeks, but I THINK I was told that since I have gravel as a cap (and yea hahah I do know its only purpose is to hold the dirt down.... it's been displaced in a few areas before and dirt goes everywhere lol) enough water would flow through the gravel to prevent those pockets. I have really, really fine gravel though. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue with bigger gravel.


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> If this were true I'd have a thousand gallons of dead fish. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with changing too much water, provided it is treated properly for the disinfectants that may be added by the supplier, and matches the tank parameters within reason.


Are all your cited tanks soil-based naturally planted?


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

freeflow246 said:


> Oh I getcha. I did that for the first few weeks, but I THINK I was told that since I have gravel as a cap (and yea hahah I do know its only purpose is to hold the dirt down.... it's been displaced in a few areas before and dirt goes everywhere lol) enough water would flow through the gravel to prevent those pockets. I have really, really fine gravel though. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue with bigger gravel.


 Like you, using mini (fine) gravel as a cap. Poking does loosen some of the soil, but it settles again. Have you found your fish enjoy the NPT more than a regular set up? Mine loves his jungle!


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Mine definitely enjoys the space! He was previously in a 2.5 gallon.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Most all of my tanks have the substrate they were made with; a sheet of glass. I've got plenty of buddies who do plants, no reason for me to. They do capped soil, among other things, and change water just as much. They'll have a few high tech's running, but being cheap like me the majority are low tech. The main plant guy in the club who runs our HAP program has about 1800 gallons running if you count his indoor pond. He changes as much water as the rest of us crazies. 

I worked up our HAP program based off of the program Helweg is running with MASI in St Louis, with this woman who used to do a lot of plants, a bit over 1k gallons running. She didn't change much water, her husband sure did. She got out of it due to medical reasons, ran into her husband a few weeks back. She's doing considerably better, he mentioned not missing the water changes, but they'll probably get back into it regardless.

Thinking on this, the guys oriented towards breeding, especially once they get towards the 40 tank 2k gallon mark seem to ditch the planted tanks. Most of the folks into plants are well below 1k gallons, at least from what I run into. I run into a lot, beyond my own setup. There's more of us out there then you think, sort of like an underground cult.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Is there any reason a lot of water changes would crash a tank that was npt? If beneficial bacteria don't live in the water column, water changes shouldn't mess anything up, right?


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## SunnyCydUp (Aug 31, 2014)

My understanding is that, in a newly set up NPT, doing too many large water changes (50%+ or more) too often depletes the BB and nutrients from the soil, upsetting the balance of the eco-system. The NPT, as outlined by Oldfishlady, seems to be built on the notion that it's as close to a closed-eco system as you can get, without the need for too much outside intervention--e.g., supplemental fertilizers, etc. 

Yes, initial, routine water changes are required for the first couple of months; however, after the tank stabilizes >3 months or so, those cut down to as low as 4-5 times a year--making it a low-tech system. 

In the end, it's up to the person responsible for the tank to determine what maintenance routine is best. Here's a good thread that offers an interesting and educational debate/argument on the subject: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68475


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I've always just gone by the water change schedule here: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115758
When I vacuum the gravel, I am definitely getting a lot of crud up from those snails. The places where I had been getting bubbles were places where I had not realized I wasn't reaching, and where the crud and definitely settled down. And I've only had those snails for 3 weeks. I am giving one of them away, but even then I can't imagine getting away with water changes less than once a week with all the poo.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Normally I don't comment on something if my only experience is word-of-mouth or reading on the Internet. I don't have an NPT mine's plain old CaribSea Tahitian Moon Sand; however, I agree with SunnyCydUp about water changes. Once an aquarium is established, constant water changing is not necessary. When I was on vacation for five weeks the only thing the pet sitter did was the occasional top off and all my residents were fine. The parameters were 0-0-25. With the Nitrate being up 1-5 ppm.

I think water changes are personal preference and knowing one's aquariums. If one wants to do them more often they should; if they find less works (like SCU and me), they should be respected for that, too. There's no cut-and-dried answer for anything in aquaria as there are so many variables from tank to tank. JMO, of course. 

PS: Incidentally, I was researching something else last night and ran across this same discussion (it wasn't on TPT) and upsetting the eco-system.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Sure, the minimal water changes, semi closed system is the goal with NPT, but if you're having issues you need to revert back to the more traditional frequent water changes. Those water changes will help more than they will hurt if you're having problems.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

So I'll keep with the water changes until the bubbles are gone. What about replenishing nutrients in the water though?


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## Pandanke (Jun 16, 2014)

The bubbles aren't being caused by water changes or lack thereof, though. It wont do anything for this situation.

The most likely scenario here is that you have 2 or more inches of substrate and it is simply not being aerated so you are getting anaerobic pockets, which is just a fancy way of saying stinky bacteria is emitting nasty gas that is getting trapped underneath your soil.

The only solutions that I am aware of are as follows:

- Poking it a few times a month, thoroughly.

- Plants with a LOT of roots.

- Malaysian trumpet snails.

Water changes only affect... you guessed it... your water column. These aren't coming from your water column. 

Poke your dirt. It wont hurt it.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I was poking the dirt and doing a water change after to remove any sulfur that could have made it's way into the water. I did some searching online about dealing with sulfur pockets and this seemed to be the most recommended way of releasing the pockets.


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

I poke my dirt. Recently switched tanks and my new one is still settling. No dead fish, snails, nada. And since I poke 3-4 times a week, and do water change once a week, it doesn't really seem to bother anyone. From what i've read, most gasses become inert pretty quickly. 
Until your roots are well established, or you have a good colony of MTS, poke your dirt. You will find it most necessary in hard to reach places, or where the fish/snails hang out (for me, this is front center of the tank. It's also where I have the fewest plants). 
You don't want to do TOO many water changes, because your plants get their nutrients from the water. Even those that get it from the soil, the nutrients in the soil will eventually have to come from your water. 
Simple solution is, as stated by others, poking.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

freeflow246 said:


> Any advice would be welcome... I'm freaking out a bit


 
Just a thought...if you have any decor that are caves or can trap the gas escaping from the substrate, you'll want to remove those. trapped gas can get pretty toxic.
Whenever I clean my gravel I always turn my bettas caves upside down in their tank to allow any trapped air or detritis to escape. I don't have a soil based substrate so I don't have the gas problem to worry about.
Sorry if this posts twice.....problems with some "tokens" in posting today.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks! Good tip.


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