# monster copper/red orange hmpk ♂ x yellow dragon koi hmpk ♀



## amphirion

successful spawn yesterday, appx 24 hours of introduction. decided to utilize a plastic shoebox container this time around as it will make controlled feedings much easier to deal with. shoebox has matured water with java moss--water is teaming with microinverts ranging from paramecium to daphnia, so should be well off for feeding for the first two weeks.

decent number, maybe 150? diligent father, way better than dinkus. hoping to receive kids similar to another project, but this time with white faces. AND NO LONG FINS! 

male and female were both from the same breeder, but different lines most likely. female is Dinkus's sister.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Good luck, I can't wait to see them


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## amphirion

kids are two days old, smaller batch than originally thought, but that could be due to my limited viewing (i cant see the nest well)

hilarious sidenote-- daphnia in the tank are slightly smaller than the fry and are gray colored. papa's been catching them and placing them in the nest along with the fry. lol.


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## TealHoundogg

That's funny, can't seem to tell the difference between his kids and food. Hope he figures out soon. Do you have any photos of him and the mother?


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## amphirion

no photos of mother or father currently. will probably do in the future but dont have the time to do it like i used to.

male removed just now.


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## amphirion

everyone went to bed...everyone woke up...nobody died. 

pics of the fry, and their shoebox home--

















typical spawning setup--the honeymoon suite; spared no expense.


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## TealHoundogg

Nice job.


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## amphirion

@teal: as you can see-- spawning bettas is easier than you think; no need for large tanks for the actual spawning event, just enough cover for the female to hide. Kids will be transfered out to a larger tank when they reach 7.5 mm.


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## TealHoundogg

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I got an eight gallon storage container, mostly so there'd be enough space to house the fry.


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## amphirion

here's another common question: how much live food is necessary to keep the fry alive for the first 3 weeks?

i apologize for the vertical phone display and the EDM. when i decided to download movie editor, it turns out it's no longer supported. no excuse for the EDM though. 
http://vid6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/amphirion/IMG_1060-1.mp4
im guestimating that the food supply should be good for at least 2 weeks...


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## amphirion

dame:








sire:


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## Sathori

LOVE that male! Those babies are going to be gorgeous!!


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## TealHoundogg

Nice. I really love the female. I know of a place that has koi bettas but they're not easy to come by.


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## amphirion

poop butt fart...
so something unexpected happened... the food that was meant for the fry ended up being capable of swarming and devouring them.... so kids will not be hanging out with the food until they can eat them. cant wait for sweet, sweet revenge.

did a respawn of this pair, and i think i've gotten my largest spawn up to date. probably around the 500 number? kids are munching on rotifers right now.


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## Ashthemutt

Oh my gosh!! I can't wait till their colors start coming in!


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## hrutan

Goodness gracious. I'm sorry to hear about the lost spawn...but all those little swimming pairs of eyeballs you just showed us are GLORIOUS!!


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## amphirion

labyrinth organelles started to kick in yesterday.


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## TealHoundogg

Aw... look at those faces!


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## umarnasir335

How's the size of the spawn looking?
Still a 100+ fish? I definitely bet you'll find your dream fish if you have such a large spawn to work with


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## amphirion

unfortunately, somewhere between day 4-8, i had a massive die off. food wasnt an issue, it was lack of aggression (no desire to attack prey). still have a good amount to work with--stopped counting at 60.

eating bbs right now with a dash of grindal. still surprise that they have the tenacity to take on something roughly their same size. im happy with this batch--i see pelvic fins developing.

conditions:
1) infusoria and paramecium for the 5 days.
2) microworms/bbs from day 6-7, and week 2.
3) bbs from week 2-4, microworms sparingly aka bbs culture gave low yield.
4) bbs from week 5 to present + grindal worms.

did not clean tank bottom, had 9-10 ramshorn snails doing janitorial duty. this makes me believe that having a sole microworm diet was the cause for absent pelvic fin development. 

anyways...pictures pictures pictures:


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## bwywbi

Very nice. What do you use to keep the shoebox breeder tank warm? A heater or perhaps on a heat pad?


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## amphirion

Shoebox floats inside another tank, which is heated.


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## hrutan

It's been documented elsewhere that a microworm only diet leads to lack of pelvic fins, but microworms + something else as a diet doesn't have the same issue. While popular speculation has it that microworms promote some sort of bacteria growth that eats away at the pelvic fins, the fact that the pelvic fins develop when a secondary food is introduced, even if microworms are still fed, suggests that it is a nutritional deficiency instead.

And that came out way more dry and academic than I'd intended.


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## MattsBettas

I feed amounts of micro and banana worms that would make some breeders angry at me. I'm serious. For the first month of their life, they get microworms 90% of the time... And they turn out just fine. I've had one case of missing ventral fins, and that was on a fish that didn't grow properly. 

I find the "nutritional deficiency" theory highly unlikely, because it shouldn't take any different nutritions to grow the ventral fins than any other fin. I just find it extremely strange that a nutritional deficiency would cause issues with the ventral fins and nothing else. 

The bacteria theory makes some sense, as fry spend a lot of time at the bottom, where the worms sink to. The main issue I have with this is that it should affect the anal fin too, but I suppose the fact that anal fins develop much earlier than ventrals, which some in later, could explain this. 

Either way, I never experience any issue, probably largely because I clean the bottom fairly often and have snails to do it for me in the meantime. I can sent you to some discussions we've had on the topic, if you want.


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## amphirion

I love dry. And I totally followed your thought. I too read an article with the same findings. I just wanted to test it out for myself. It does seem more like a nutrient deficiency/inhibitor issue vs dirty bacterial floor issues.


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## hrutan

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of discussions on the topic, lol. It's probably a combination of different factors, honestly, and until someone does clinical testing with a control group, lab tools, and training on their side, we'll probably never know for sure.

There are other young fry cultures to choose from, so giving microworms a pass entirely doesn't seem like a bad plan.

Sorry, Amphirion. Didn't mean to derail your thread.


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## arportia

This is my first time looking at baby betta fishies and I just have to say that they are soooo adorable~look at their little eyeballs and their colored little stomachs! there are so many of them! The male sire was very beautiful and fiery, can't wait to see these little boogers all grown up!


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## amphirion

hrutan said:


> Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of discussions on the topic, lol. It's probably a combination of different factors, honestly, and until someone does clinical testing with a control group, lab tools, and training on their side, we'll probably never know for sure.
> 
> There are other young fry cultures to choose from, so giving microworms a pass entirely doesn't seem like a bad plan.
> 
> Sorry, Amphirion. Didn't mean to derail your thread.


no worries. all good here. my hypothesis was that it wasnt a malnutrition defect, but more of an inhibitor mechanism going on, either chemical or physical.



arportia said:


> This is my first time looking at baby betta fishies and I just have to say that they are soooo adorable~look at their little eyeballs and their colored little stomachs! there are so many of them! The male sire was very beautiful and fiery, can't wait to see these little boogers all grown up!


thanks, i have another thread somewhere that actually logs the fry's development from egg to about 2 months...


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## amphirion

kids starting to apply warpaint on their faces.


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## Alaura123

Haha, I would love to see some of that! xD


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## amphirion

hard to take pics of because the tank is relatively deep now. majority are showing red like their father, but a few are either devoid of red or are faint yellow like mom. which tells me that the father is hetero for red/yellow. 
war-paint right now looks copper but i hope that becomes white.


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## Nimble

I really hope that they turn out beautifully. If they're really good, and if I have my setup ready, I might just order one from you. Be sure to give us some pictures to tease us.


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## amphirion

poor photos of the kids:
with war paint...








group shot...


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## hrutan

They look so graceful and strong!


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## amphirion

thanks! jarring time is right around the door... T.T


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## hrutan

Have fun with that, haha. How do you heat your jars?


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## BlueInkFish

Beautiful!!!


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## amphirion

hrutan said:


> Have fun with that, haha. How do you heat your jars?


didnt have to do it with the last spawn since it was summer.

but i plan on using a circulating water system. water flows out of the plastic jars via siphons into a large plastic tub with filter media and a heater. a powerhead shoots all the water back into the jars.


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## hrutan

Interesting, thank you.


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## amphirion

update... so i've got dragons... lots of dragons. hoping the marble gene kicks in to make things a bit interesting. surprisingly enough, no white even though both parents showed it (female had white scales, male had monster pattern)--maybe it will kick in later?

was able to take a few pics of the non-reds (yellow)

male one. unfortunately has a tiny divet in his head, had to take him out so he wouldnt destroy the smaller siblings or wreck any nice females i had. 

























male #2









male #3, probably the best one out of the group currently as he went through branching pretty early and also already has the 180 spread, nice body to boot. his dorsal sucks though--would be nice to find a platinum female (rather have dirty platinums with steel/copper background) with a nice high dorsal to compensate, anal fin isnt pointy. considering him as a breeder for the next gen though, though that might change when a late bloomer comes around.


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## MattsBettas

Very nice. The white may be yet to come in, by the way.


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## amphirion

thanks! im glad to hear that. should make things really interesting.


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## bwywbi

Looking good. Makes me miss my dragons. They will be my go to fish when we start to breed bettas again.


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## amphirion

genetics is a very funny thing... whoever thought crossing a short tail with a short tail would produce long fins? it just testifies that although one tries to cover all the variables, there are others that arent accounted for, which make significant contributions.

update on male #3. obviously no longer qualifies as a plakat. anal fin prevents him from qualifying him as a hm (expected since im breeding for hmpk and not shortfin hms) he should be fun to work with though for whoever desires to work with him...









already working the 180* spread








dorsal coming in very nicely in comparison to last time


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## Nimble

Even if he's not qualifiable, he's still very handsome.


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## Alaura123

True, I really like his coloring


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## kevinap2

If I may ask, where do you usually sell the fry you don't plan to keep?


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## amphirion

kevinap2 said:


> If I may ask, where do you usually sell the fry you don't plan to keep?


yessir, i do plan to sell. either here, or on various facebook sites, or maybe even on aquabid (will only do for the really nice ones--if there are any).


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## kevinap2

Awesome. Make sure you let us know when they're ready to be sold- I'd definitely be interested and I'm sure a few more of us would be too!


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## BlueLacee

Stunning!!! I want them all. Great job


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## trilobite

Beautiful fish!! The parents were stunning as well. Have you found any marbles so far?


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## amphirion

no, not yet. i only showed the non-reds of the group but i have plenty of red/oranges as well. they are not exhibiting any redloss/marbling at this moment. many of the kids are not showing full coverage of irids so it's hard to determine whether the pattern is due to partial coverage or an effect of marbling.


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## amphirion

here's a pic of one of the reds. 








as you can see, metallic distribution isnt uniform, but dont know whether marbling is at play.


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## jr591

I love the dragons! Following this thread immediately.


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## amphirion

1 of 80ish. nobody else is marbling like crazy.


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## amphirion

finally. things starting to get interesting.









need to find fish with heavier branching.... i might only end up with 4 ray this batch.


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## BlueInkFish

Wow! That one is beautiful!!! :lol: you should hand em over XD!!!


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## amphirion

thanks. believe that's a she. but not just yet. still growing out. just about an inch long. and the marble gene just kicked in.


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## BlueInkFish

Ok! Keep an eye on her for me LOL she's just to beautiful!!!

I REALLY like her :lol:


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## amphirion

she's rapidly changing now. definitely less black.


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## hrutan

That is so neat. ^_^


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## amphirion

thanks! going to take a few pics of the boys later...
you'd think that HMPK x HMPK would yield HMPK, but surprisingly not the case.

12.5% of the males are long-fined, super deltas
75% are short-finned, 2-rayed plakats (dont think they fit the traditional criteria)
12.5% are short-finned, HMPK


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## hrutan

Really. Ha, goes to show that you never really know what they're carrying, unless you bred the pair's parents, grand parents, et all...


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## Optomist

My gosh! Splendid!


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## amphirion

holy smokes. a few more starting to marble. this one i happened upon during feeding. wicked sick! though he's only a two ray. poop.


























definitely the color scheme i was aiming for!


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## hrutan

Gorgeous.


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## BlueInkFish

amphirion said:


> she's rapidly changing now. definitely less black.


Wow! She's so beautiful!!

I may need to steal her from you XD!!


Hand her over!!!


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## amphirion

litelboyblu said:


> Wow! She's so beautiful!!
> 
> I may need to steal her from you XD!!
> 
> 
> Hand her over!!!


will probably sell her. looks like she's carrying redloss...


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## BlueInkFish

Yay!!  well, you better tell me once she's on sell. I'll try to snatch before anyone else can! XD !


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## TerriGtoo

Beautiful !


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## TerriGtoo

litelboyblu said:


> Yay!!  well, you better tell me once she's on sell. I'll try to snatch before anyone else can! XD !


 
Bwahaha Blu.......you might have competition. Just kidding, I don't have any more room for the girls!


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## BlueInkFish

TerriGtoo said:


> Bwahaha Blu.......you might have competition. Just kidding, I don't have any more room for the girls!


Pfft you better back off XD I won't go down without a fight !


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## LittleBettaFish

The two ray male is stunning. Being a wild enthusiast myself, I actually prefer that more traditional form. I like the colouration in his dorsal and anal fins.


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## amphirion

LittleBettaFish said:


> The two ray male is stunning. Being a wild enthusiast myself, I actually prefer that more traditional form. I like the colouration in his dorsal and anal fins.


thanks so much for the encouragement littlebettafish. i wonder how well he would do in show... everything about him is amazing, though he has a gimpy ventral. lets see if that could be fixed.


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## amphirion

a few pics of the beta bettas...
harder to get these guys to flare since they're more docile.
white mask









so much lol. i crossed an hmpk with an hmpk... of course i'd expect veiltail...









non-red marbling, will probably cello out...









like these two:

















and my favorite out of the entire batch








thought it was really cool how the rays were orange while the red stayed on the fins.


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## Kithy

oooo that last one.

Wish I wasn't broke


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## BlueInkFish

I like that veiltail boy.., your going to make me bankrupt !!! XD he's just too beautiful!!


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## trilobite

They are looking very flash! Interesting you got longfins, guess the female must have been longfin carrying pk.
Orange guy is my fave too, hes stunning! Are you going to continue this line?

Love the vt, never would have seen that coming! You dont see vt in fancy colours very often


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## amphirion

thanks very much trilobite! yes, that is the plan (will merge with the armageddon project)--but unfortunately, i dont think i will be using that particular orange male because he's a two-ray plakat. one of his brothers though shows amazing potential, with 4 rays, so he will be better to work with. i just hope that he marbles similarly to the orange one.

females arent really showing as much promise, but i hear crossing a cello sibling with a full colored fish reveals some spectacular results.


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## amphirion

a handful more, i promise...
this one is a non-red, but displaying the same color loss pattern as the orange one. hope its a female, might sell the both off as a pair for someone to work with (or should i do it myself...bah)









and of course all my 8-rays turn out to be longfinned....sorry for the potatoes guys, didnt care to take decent shots of them, though i do have a question for the HM breeders, im having weak dorsals, any idea why, and how to prevent them?


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## BlueInkFish

I love that last boy and his color!!!!


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## amphirion

hi. DIALUP (people still use this?) WARNING!!!!!!
























http://i.imgur.com/G69XdJm.png[/img
[img]http://i.imgur.com/eEW9JLG.png


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## Kithy

They're beautiful...


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## bubblesaurus

Love love the fins on the third one!


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## bubblesaurus

The're all so handsome


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## hrutan

You have such lovely fish.


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## Nimble

Cellophane dragons. Those boys/girls are just delicious-looking.


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## amphirion

Thanks so much! Raised with love.


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## Kisiel

The 5th one is just... Hhhnnnnggg... I have no words. It's perfect o3o


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## Alaura123

They are gorgeous!


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