# Discussion: color vs form



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

This is something I've been thinking on and would like to hear thoughts on. 

I have been looking everywhere for a good crowntail male. Either the color is not what I want, or the fins have terrible form, like unevenness, gaps in between rays, missing rays, or just plain messy. I found a nice male with even, well defined rays, double crown points, and a decent spread. Unfortunately, he's deep red, and I'm not fond of reds. There's a marble I like, but his rays don't look a nice. 

Opinions on this delimma?


----------



## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1330709410

Lets take a look at the fish above. Nice color. But check the scaling and fins. The fins are not the best and the scales show signs of x-factor. That is because someone wasn't careful and bred fish with too much branching and fin size and improper body strength.

I personally breed fish to be more like Martinismommy's fish. Her fish have excellent fins, and great body structure and good color.


----------



## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

While I love color, and that is a factor, I believe form is the most important. Martinismommy as MrV says has color AND for down. She also sells CT sometimes.


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

The CT I was looking at is red with a little blueish wash on him. I'm just not a fan of red, otherwise he looks fantastic. I'm trying to decide if I should get him for my marble girls, or keep waiting until I find a color I like with good fins. 

I definitely look at the scales too to make sure they're smooth and even.


----------



## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Form is harder to correct.
So work with it first.
Breeding two different color might throw something new to the table.
Form might take up to 5-10 generation to prefect if your starting with lower class fish
Color might take only 2-4 to correct in a solid
Marble only take one to get marble
Anything toss with a marble will get a marble
The Ct loss it touch in these past few years.
Remember seeing my first Ct going for $20 at my lfs
This was like 9 or 10 years ago


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I prefer a good strong color.. fins can vary. If I were to name my perfect ct, it would be my Spyro.. I wish I had more pictures of him, but a cell phone won't cut it. He is always holding his fins spread out,to me he has good fins and a strong color. His head is more red in life.. the brown caused by flash. But yeah.. since I don't show my fish, I'm not picky on the fins.. I want personality/color to shine over how the fins look.

<3 Spyro


----------



## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Then go with marble or a pastel
Less depth in color but a better shine


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@styggian: finding that perfect betta may too long. Your female might be old by the time you find him..... just keep that in mind. Sometimes you have to start with what is available and slowly work yourself through. But start with compatible colors - color combination that may produce amazing patterns. Eg. Don't start with a red x irid color because all you'll get is a multi of irid and red.... (check out the color genetic)

Can you post a picture of your female - side view of her flaring.

@Myates: for someone who's not picky on fins, you sure have a gorgeous CT - fairly balanced super delta (I think), dorsal and anal up right. Pair him to a nicely formed female (same overall balance at least) and you have potential winners.


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/jashtonjude/IMAG0384.jpg[\img] 

I'll try for a better one after work, or likely a vid. The tannin effects her appearance a little, but it's almost cleared from their water now.
[size=1][i]Posted via Mobile Device[/i][/size]


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

styggian said:


> http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/jashtonjude/IMAG0384.jpg[\img]
> 
> I'll try for a better one after work, or likely a vid. The tannin effects her appearance a little, but it's almost cleared from their water now.
> [size=1][i]Posted via Mobile Device[/i][/size][/QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

How does my Spike look as a crowntail?
I know you can't really see his scales, but I'd be curious to know if he has any faults or if he is really perfection.
http://www.bettafish.com/picture.php?albumid=2318&pictureid=22791
http://www.bettafish.com/picture.php?albumid=2318&pictureid=22788
http://www.bettafish.com/picture.php?albumid=2318&pictureid=22790
http://www.bettafish.com/picture.php?albumid=2318&pictureid=22789
And maybe a video would help as well?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajqbRKrOofs


----------



## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

He is nice as far as double rays go. But maybe someone who has studied the CT form more can tell you. I just glanced over it.


----------



## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

He looks really nice to me, but I'm not an expert.


----------



## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

OP I think you need to ask yourself what your overall breeding goal is. Are you looking to show? Are you trying to improve something in the crowntail itself (such as a improving some part of the form, or getting a difficult color to breed true) I feel that before anyone breeds they should have a goal in mind, why do you want to breed these fish? And your answer should help you decide which way to go. If you want to show in the future, breeding for form would be more important then color. If you want to work with a specific color and help improve that aspect of the crowntail as a whole then color choice would be more important then form. 

Just remember if you're working with petstore bettas, they have unknown genetics, and the color you pick out in the store may not show up in the offspring at all because there's no way to know what the genetic structure of the fish is


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

indjo said:


> @styggian: finding that perfect betta may too long. Your female might be old by the time you find him..... just keep that in mind. Sometimes you have to start with what is available and slowly work yourself through. But start with compatible colors - color combination that may produce amazing patterns. Eg. Don't start with a red x irid color because all you'll get is a multi of irid and red.... (check out the color genetic)
> 
> Can you post a picture of your female - side view of her flaring.
> 
> @Myates: for someone who's not picky on fins, you sure have a gorgeous CT - fairly balanced super delta (I think), dorsal and anal up right. Pair him to a nicely formed female (same overall balance at least) and you have potential winners.


Indjo, here you go.




























Her name is Aurora, and she has a LOT of iridescence, her body stays pale, but her fins flash a bit green/turquoise.


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm going to get some pics of her sister as well. These two girls are amazingly beautiful.


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

MoonShadow said:


> OP I think you need to ask yourself what your overall breeding goal is. Are you looking to show? Are you trying to improve something in the crowntail itself (such as a improving some part of the form, or getting a difficult color to breed true) I feel that before anyone breeds they should have a goal in mind, why do you want to breed these fish? And your answer should help you decide which way to go. If you want to show in the future, breeding for form would be more important then color. If you want to work with a specific color and help improve that aspect of the crowntail as a whole then color choice would be more important then form.
> 
> Just remember if you're working with petstore bettas, they have unknown genetics, and the color you pick out in the store may not show up in the offspring at all because there's no way to know what the genetic structure of the fish is


I've also thought about what goals I'd want to pursue. I'm interested in the marble pattern for plakats and possibly crowns, and in halfmoons and trying to improve a strain with even finnage, working toward the "fullmoon" type, with mustard gas coloring (though mustard gas is a preference, the main goal is even finnage and symmetry). I'm aware that it takes a lot of work and investment. I want to do it for the enjoyment on my own part, and to try improving a fish that I absolutely love.


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

styggian said:


> I'm going to get some pics of her sister as well. These two girls are amazingly beautiful.


Opal, Aurora's sister.





































She wouldn't stop moving until I had my camera pointed away, then would dart when I tried getting a pic, so they're not full on side profiles.


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

those are big bellies!!!


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

FishyFishy89 said:


> those are big bellies!!!


Lol I think they're eggy. They look like that the day after fasting, too.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Your first post suggests that your goal is to produce as good form as possible. ..... so here goes;
IMO, your girl has relatively balanced fins. Unfortunately her fins are far from perfect. In general she has rather small/slim webbing which makes them look rather small. You want the dorsal to meet the caudal - which in her case is rather round. You want her caudal to form a "D". But her anal fin is balanced to her caudal and thus form a circular pattern from dorsal to anal. IMO her fins are better than her sister's.















The second picture shows what you're after - your breeding goal (if you want to improve her fins. This is the general "ideal" form for modern long fins.

Her color is irid based (green) so you could pair her to another irid color (blue or green) or to irid based metalic like copper and platinum. You can even pair her to a black lace since this color shows irids as well. I do not advise pairing her to a red, because you will have a hard time separating the 2 colors in the future. As for marbles, pair her to any color, you should get a few marbles in fry.


----------



## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

indjo said:


> Your first post suggests that your goal is to produce as good form as possible. ..... so here goes;
> IMO, your girl has relatively balanced fins. Unfortunately her fins are far from perfect. In general she has rather small/slim webbing which makes them look rather small. You want the dorsal to meet the caudal - which in her case is rather round. You want her caudal to form a "D". But her anal fin is balanced to her caudal and thus form a circular pattern from dorsal to anal. IMO her fins are better than her sister's.
> 
> View attachment 49680
> ...


Thank you for the info  I see what you mean about her fins, i did think she looked better than her sister. I had already considered her caudel and agree that getting a "D" shaped spread was a primary goal. I didn't think a red male would be a good pairing for the reasons you stated. While reading about betta coloring, I learned that iridescent scaling comes from a blue base, but I didn't know if copper or other metals would be a good match as well. 

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettasct&1330767138 : I thought this male could potentially be a good pairing. He has a better caudel than my female, though his rays look a bit short to me. 

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettasct&1331003337 : I like this male better, I like how well defined his caudel rays are, but his tail doesn't make it to the "D" shaped. 

I don't currently see any CT males on aquabid that have an exceptional form. The rays are too messy, or have a small spread. I've been looking at new crowntail auctions almost daily, for months, and none of them I've seen have been worth the cost plus shipping.


----------



## PitGurl (Feb 22, 2011)

Why don't you contact Karen Mac Auley, Martinismommy on here and see if she has any CT's left. She breed some really nice ones last year that did well in the shows. The color may not be what you're looking for but their form was really nice.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

PitGurl's suggestion sounds good, you should try that.

Irid colors = green, turquoise, steel blue , and royal blue..... the basis of metallic colors, specially green.
Coppers are green based - a cross breed between green and wild imbilis (I think). In 2005-2006 if you bred a copper to a green, you will get mostly green. Nowadays the copper is more stable so you'd get equal results. Breed copper to platinum, you'd still get some greens.
Platinum = white opaque x copper
White opaque= not sure. But blue (an irid color) is one of the mixtures - the reason why you'd often see white with blue sheen on them. Nowadays you would also find white with copper layer (side effects/rejects of making platinum)

Your female is white with green (an irid color) layer. So anything with an irid layer or an irid mixture would be OK.

The first male is OK. But I don't really like the second one - too unbalanced for my taste (anal fin is too long)


----------



## PitGurl (Feb 22, 2011)

This male is ideal. His rays are tight and straight. I don't like a CT who has rays that can't support themselves. He has good ray reduction and a fairly decent spread. Finding a CT with a 180 spread will be difficult, they'll have to come from good HM genes which most don't. My male Freebie who I got from Karen has one of the best spreads I've seen on a CT in person(2nd photo).


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

indjo said:


> @Myates: for someone who's not picky on fins, you sure have a gorgeous CT - fairly balanced super delta (I think), dorsal and anal up right. Pair him to a nicely formed female (same overall balance at least) and you have potential winners.


Thanks  he was actually a Walmart find, and the first CT I had ever seen.. I couldn't pass him up lol


----------

