# [spawn log] Red/blue CT x Turquoise CT - need advice :)



## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Hello everyone, it's my first post here. Nice to meet you all. 

My current predicament..My first spawn turned 3-weeks old on Saturday. I've been feeding them mainly on microworms which they love, and one occasion, BBS. The fry have been relatively healthy and I have not lost any due to diseases (the ones that died off were weak and small compared to their counterparts). I started off with 80+ fry and still have almost the same number today- I count my blessings, lol. Water change is a daily 10% since they turned 2 weeks, and every 3 days or so I change about half. They are now about 1 cm long on average and are showing slight irids on their tiny fins. 

They were perfectly fine until yesterday night, when I noticed 2 of my fry had a red bloody bump/patch over their forehead. I isolated them immediately, did a 90% water change to the fry tank and added about 10 drops of Melafix in it. One of the two died a few hours later and the other one is being treated with a few drops of the same medicine. It is still alive and swimming the last time I checked it this morning. The red also seemed less obvious...I think. Half of my fry looks slightly redder on the gills, and I am not sure if it is normal and I'm just paranoid, or it's a sign of a disaster to come. T^T

My question is, has anyone come across such a situation and is there any effective solution to this?
From my research, it seems to be a bacterial infection based on this website: http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/killer.htm
The fry in the picture is exactly how mine looks like. >_< 

Any advice is much appreciated!

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On a lighter note, here is a few pics of my 3-week old fry 














































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I'll post more pictures once I am done sorting out my betta folder.


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## Gloria (Sep 22, 2011)

Congrats on your 3 week old fry (Mine turned 3 weeks yesterday, I have a log on here if you want to look at it)...
I am REALLY sorry to hear that some are not well. I am sorry for the loss of that little fry. I am sorry that I cannot help you but I truly hope someone on here will be able to!!


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## Bambi (Sep 11, 2011)

Hmm, i've heard of red gills being a sign of ammonia burns(never had that issue myself so i can't tell you for sure). but you seem to be doing enough water changes.
Maybe up to 15% daily.(i do 20% simply because that's the size bucket i use).

If it is bacterial you could try an antibiotic? The site you link said tetracycline and frequent HUGE water changes helped. I'm not sure where you could find it locally where you live. If you can't get the antibiotics i would keep doing larger water changes and Qt any suspected infected fry.

methlyne blue is suggested for bacteria too, right?(going off the linked page aswell and my little past knowledge). you could try some of that?
Just remember to keep the medications to a minimum. They're generally a last ditch effort and can be just as harmful to fry sometimes as what you're trying to fix. Hopefully someone here has some experience and can help.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

When that happens, I usually do a 100% wc and scrub/wipe the tank. How big is your tank? Perhaps more bacteria are produced daily and your wc is insufficient. Or you could try using filters - 1cm is big enough to handle slight current. If you're using a corner filter, don't place it in the corner as it should be because fry might get trapped between the filter and glass.

I mainly use a local medicine (don't know the contents - it's yellow). My Qt are 1g tanks where I usually keep 12 1cm fry. I feel this is easier to control than big tanks where all are in there. But IMO it's more the wc that cures them than the medicine - I do twice 30 - 50% wc daily and weekly 100% + totally clean the tanks (always refill with medicated water). 

If there's no improvements, I usually add AQ salt 1/2 - 1 tsp/g (depending how bad their condition are), and massive daily wc (50-100% daily).

Good luck. Hope your fry makes it.


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Thank you for the opinion and advice!

Gloria: Congrats on your fry too! Looks like the babies are at the same age. Good luck on your spawn. ^__^

Bambi: I'm guessing the red gills are a precurser to the bloody forehead. Tetracycline and aquarium antibiotics are ridiculously expensive here and very few shops sell them. I'll leave that option out for now and will see if WC and aquarium salt helps. Will be careful with the dosage.

Indjo: My tank is 2 feet long..the regular 10g, I think. I have a sponge filter going from the start. Yup, I've heard of the miraculous "yellow powder"..unfortunately I don't have any with me now, and am probably going to order it online soon. My fault for not stocking up on medications earlier. :/ When you say 100% wc, do you mean you remove all fry? do you use a net or simply siphon them out? and here I was a bit worried that a 100% wc would disrupt the nitrogen cycle. Guess now is not a time for that, huh. And I haven't have enough time to age the water [email protected][email protected]

My first sick fry is doing better now and is eating normally in its QT tank. The red bump is really slowly dissipating.  From the 2 fry that died, looks like it only gets too late when the red bump spreads like a red line along the spine. I'm going to move out all fry now and scrub the tank clean and see if they do better.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes move them (I use a net but some people say you can damage HM fry's fins - your choice), clean the tank, and then put them back in. This "new water" isn't cycled, you might need more wc.

If others aren't affected and you don't have enough water ready, you could try "cleaning" as it is. Wipe from bottom to top. Try not to release debris into the water (this is often tricky). Take out all the plants (if you're using them). Then when your new water's ready, do a massive wc. That way you still have your cycle. If you're worried about shock due to different water pram, refill using the drip system.

Tbh, I don't fully understand water pram - I don't use water testers. This is just what works for me. ..... I always clean everything every month, otherwise I get problems like you (whether in small containers or in big 50g+). Hopefully someone with better knowledge about water and diseases will jump in and explain everything.

Glad to hear your sick fry is getting better.


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## Gloria (Sep 22, 2011)

I can't wait to see some pictures...
We can compare our fry since they're only a few days apart 
Hope all is going ok and that the sick fry are getting much better!


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Indjo: In the end, I chose the net.  I don't understand water param either and have no idea how water testers even look like. But yes, I guess nothing beats a regular water change. Thanks for the help!

Gloria: Indeed! I hope all goes well with your spawn also..so at least if mine doesn't work out I can still admire yours cause they're the same age~ xD

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So...I did the unthinkable today and brutally netted out my fry twice within 24 hours, muahahah. Took Indjo's advice and did a complete 100% wc yesterday night. 

I moved out around 50 fry into a 2g temporary tank, and separated another 20 or so into two mini 0.5g containers. Gave the original tank a major scrub and submerged my sponge filter and plastic plant with boiling water..before I figured it won't do any good because you'd still have to dip your contaminated net into the pristine water when you move the fry back anyway, lol. I left the fry alone in the 2g to let the water age in the main aquarium for a day. When I came back, I counted my casualties to 4...3 in the 2g and 1 in one of the 0.5g. Two of them had the telltale red gash on the forehead. I guess they were too late to be saved..:/ I quickly netted out all fry from the 2g back into the main tank..and they resumed swimming and eating in no time. Most of them still have the reddish gills though, but I'm optimistic. As for the two mini QT containers, I changed the water and will leave them in there for now. My backup babies! Eggs in a few baskets is always better than all in one. ^^;

On the brighter side, my FIRST sick fry is doing great! Eating and behaving normally, and there's only a little bit of red tinge left compared to yesterday's red bump. That completely made my day.  From today onwards, he's going to get special treatment from me if he lives through this, haha. I've decided to raise him separately from the rest. 

I'm going to sacrifice some sleep and change 90% of the water daily for the next week and hope the infection goes away on its own. Will keep you all updated. I'm uploading some pics now..do check back in a min.


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Pics!

*Yesterday, before the water change*

Notice the red bump on first sick fry's forehead









First casualty on the left..









My new wallpaper, just because









*24 hours later, taken a few hours ago after massive water change*

First sick fry. Forehead still a bit reddish, but no more bump. Has resumed eating and swimming normally









My temporary tanks during the wc

















Rest of the fry


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

For the record, here are the parents:










M: Francis (Blue/Red/Brown CT)
F: Ciel (Turquoise CT)

Betta dad actually wrapped two different females on more or less the same day (which prompted me to name him Francis (Bonnefoy). If you watched Hetalia, you'd get the joke, haha. And same colours too!) ^^; From the start, I did intend to let him spawn with Ciel, my young blue CT female but I also had this nagging feeling that she was too young/small and not ready to spawn.. then again CT fry were ideal for me! I did everything by the book..dad spends half his life building bubblenests anyway, he was more than enthusiastic and gentle but she kept running away from him. I left them together for a day. Next morning Ciel was still hiding in a corner and dad hovering underneath his bubblenest, so I thought it was a failed attempt. And so I replaced Ciel with my red HM. This time, the courtship went smoothly because both were as eager, lol (she was fat with eggs). After 7-8 hours of wrapping but still no eggs, I supposed she was too big for him.

By then, Ciel had started to display vertical barrings..so as a last ditch effort, I switched her back, watched for a while and left them alone for the night. They were in the middle of spawning when I checked on them the next morning. That was on 15 Oct 2011..it all began from there. D

Francis began making bubblenests again within hours after I took him out..xD;

I compiled video logs, if anyone's interested:

Unsuccessful first attempt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0cPzSsGhFY

*Spawn log*

Part 1- Spawning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtViQsz1shE

Part 2- Dad picks up eggs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXpNjf5E5ZM

Part 3 - 2-week old fry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUdxszNFqbI

Part 4 - 2week 5day old fry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGYw7YxrNkE

Part 5 - 3-week old fry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pr6qgy7PVQ

Shortly after putting up part 5, I think I jinxed myself, haha.


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## Gloria (Sep 22, 2011)

I am sorry you lost some more fry... It's good your first sick one is getting better.. I cannot believe how big they are and SO cute!! I love both mum and dad.. These fry are going to be gorgeous when they get colour etc. I rekon yours are bigger than mine 
lol...  hope all continues to go well


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

I think I found out what this is...it's Columnaris caused by Flavobacterium columnare. Which explains the lesions, red gills and reddened internal organs. It's the same bacteria that causes fungus-like patches on adult fishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columnaris
http://www.fishkeepingbanter.com/showthread.php?t=62723
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

Most effective treatment should be Kanamycin (for gram negative bacteria), although Pimafix can be used for mild cases. So, next time you consider spawning, do stock up on some Kanamycin!


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

My fry turns 4 weeks old today.  A milestone, yay! I think I might have the bacterial problem in control so far with daily 80-90% water changes. Some of the fry still have reddened gills but I take comfort with the fact that they're still little gluttons and acting normally. Since my last update, more fry has darkened in colour and have horizontal lines across their bodies. They sure look healthier darker!

Some pictures...









































































Dad and his mini bubble nest 









Overhead view of my main tank in high resolution:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/jessepea87/Betta Spawn Log/DSCN6229.jpg

The above is not inclusive of another 28 fry that I am raising separately in a 2g tank. I have not made a stocktake on the number of fry yet..on estimate, there should be about 70-80 fry altogether.


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## Gloria (Sep 22, 2011)

OH!!! They look SO cute, the have REALLY long bodies.. They are gorgeous. I am glad to hear they are getting better.. Congrats on them making it to 4 weeks. Happy 4 week birthday little Fry!!

Very nice mini bubble nest, daddy.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Congrats on fry's recovery - glad everything worked out. 
Keep an eye on the slightest lethargy which could spread through out the tank.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Aww, they're so cute! I'm glad they're doing ok.


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Hello all, sorry for the lack of updates..I confess the whole disease thing and mass fry death overtime had been a little discouraging. Kinda put me off the mood for updating and taking pictures until I'm reasonably certain they'd stop dying on me, lol.

Anyway, here we are. What's left of my spawn is now 8 weeks 3 days old. Current headcount, about 41. I started off with around 80-100 fry and had them steady for 3 weeks without problems. Alas, a bacterial infection striked and I started losing about 5 every day..until the 5th week. On the first sign of the disease, I had them separated into a few smaller tanks, did daily water changes and medicated them on Ueno yellow powder. I don't know if the med worked..half of the healthy fry end up getting infected still, but at least some survived.

This episode, plus the fact that I fed them mainly on microworms for too long, I think, have stunted their growth for a while. The surviving fry are also missing their ventrals now. ^^;; It feels to me like they're doomed to stay as adolenscents forever, lol..no beards! But at this point I don't really mind anymore..I'm just thankful they're still alive! If anything, I've learnt my lesson, in future I'll start off with BBS sooner. xD;

And I'm sorry if I sound so pessimistic, hahah. Things are actually much brighter now. My largest fries, about 10 of them, are a little over 2 cm and have just taken in their first frozen bloodworms. It's great satisfaction to see them gobble up some real 'solid' food! Colours are also more prominent now..there's a variety of red, blue, turquiose and purple in there.

Do expect some pics in my next post. )


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

*8w 3d, picspam*







































































































































































































There!


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

They're beautiful, all sparkly and shiny! Blue is my favorite color, so I really love your fry.


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## Gloria (Sep 22, 2011)

OMG!! They are SO gorgeous.. Im glad everything has turned around.. I hope they get their ventral fins.. They look huge!!  I have a VERY big difference in size of my fry from 1cm to 2.2cm.. All of yours look the same size-ish  They are really just too cute 
Say 'HI' to them for me


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

They've got their color! They're so cute!


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Thank you for the love, Tpocicat, Gloria and Dramaqueen. ^_^ 

The fry are still very tiny compared to what they should be at 11 weeks +. At 2 months, most betta fry should be reaching adult size already but mine are only like, 1/3 of their parents' size. ^^; Oh, my mini, ventral-less bettas. Still love them though.

Colour-wise, I've got 3 of them with the striking blue/red fins from dad, many more with mum's turquoise sheen. Interestingly, there are also 3 pinkish white ones with purple-red tails. xD They are still growing, so I suppose the colours will continue to change. At the moment, I'm loving the variety of colours swimming around in my sorority. xD

So far I can only confirm that 6 of them are boys (out of 35) from the length of their anal fins and feable bubble-nesting attempts, haha..the rest either looks female or are still too small to tell. ^^; From the 6, I've only jarred 1 for flaring. He's not the biggest of the lot, but he's definitely a mini version of dad. He's got the longest fins and CT spikes compared to his siblings. ^^

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I recorded a video of them yesterday when I fed them after their water change:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHsrJWWkO_A

Lighting is not great, but you can more or less make out the variety. The 15 fry in the main tank are the biggest and the gluttons. The rest are separated into smaller 1/2g containers according to their feeding habits and appetites. The container with the red lid are saddest bunch...they're the skinniest, and refuse to eat anything else except BBS. Some also have dislocated jaws- even so, and since they're still make an effort to eat and survive, I'm not culling them any time soon. 

Hope you enjoyed the very few updates so far. Feel free to ask if you're curious about anything. 

Wishing you all a Happy New Year 2012! ))


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Some pictures..


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## BeautifulBetta (Nov 12, 2011)

awwww theyre all so beautiful!! what causes them to have no ventrals? Makes them suuuuper streamline-looking


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## purplemuffin (Aug 12, 2010)

I love that really pink one! They are all lovely though!


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

BeautifulBetta said:


> awwww theyre all so beautiful!! what causes them to have no ventrals? Makes them suuuuper streamline-looking


Thanks! xD

I don't think anyone knows the exact reason too. I've poured all over the internet, and from what I gather, no scientific research has been done on this yet, but everyone suspects it has something to do with feeding the fry microworms for too long. Could be some missing nutrition in microworms required for the fry to kickstart their ventral growth, or it could be some kind of bacteria from microworms preventing the growth. It was a risk I took when I started them off with MW and continued until they were about 3 weeks..sure enough..this happened. ^^; Apparently, if we still don't see any ventral fins when the fry reach 4 weeks, it's 100% they'll never grow them for the rest of their lives. Bettas are special like that, haha..


Purplemuffin: Thanks! My sis is eyeing the pink ones too..ah..it's going to be hard to separate them later. They look great swimming around in the same aquarium.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have heard something about what causes missing ventrals but I can't really remember exactly what. Too much microworms maybe?


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## BeautifulBetta (Nov 12, 2011)

Hmm..thats very interesting :S I'm gunna stop MW's now...lmao! Too bad though, they're so easy to culture! BBS are such a pain in the butt..


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## kmcclasky (Dec 31, 2011)

Very pretty fry


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

*3 1/2 months - Part 1*

Hi everyone. Here's another long overdue update on the big babies. They hatched mid-Oct, so they should be around 3 1/2 months old now. I've lost count how many weeks that is, lol. I still have 24 of them with me now. 5 of them, 2 boys and 3 girls have been given away to my friend.

Most, if not all of them have got colours now. They're confirmed mostly blue with red fins like dad, and the rest, about 4-5 of them are Cambodian reds. Even the sickly SBD ones have graduated BBS and now live on micropellets.  4 of the females turn out to be the giants of the group and they're almost the same size as mum now. Their gluttony is just hilarious to watch. They've actually got quite nice caudal spreads, better than mum, which is a pleasant surprise. Too bad no ventral fins. xD;

I've taken a whole lot of pics over time since my last update, so if you observe carefully, you can actually see them grow. xD


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

*Part 2*



































































































































































SBD fry









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The big babies will soon have half brothers and sisters join them! Their dad has just spawned with their mum's red sibling two days ago (just after 2 days together) and the eggs have just hatched this morning. ) I might start another spawn log if I get enough motivation, hehe. I'm still waiting for my copper red halfmoon pair to spawn..but it's been 5 days now in the spawning tank and still no results. If only all my other betta males were that easy..^^;


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Such beautiful, vibrant colors! I really love some of those males.


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

Thank you, Tpocicat~ Multicolour spawns are interesting, aren't they? 
Too bad this batch yielded more females than males..I wonder if other males could have turned out with different colours and patterns..


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## BeautifulBetta (Nov 12, 2011)

Aw wow they're all so beautiful!! Great job <33


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

They're very pretty!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

You did an amazing job! Their finnage is perfect and the colors on them are so vibrant. Butterfly CT's are truly my favorite "common" betta.

It stinks that I cant buy a pair off of you since your in Malaysia. :roll:


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Congrats on your babies.

They don't look small at all. In fact they look quite big for 2 months. They are rather thin though. What are you feeding. Have you tried live tubifex or blood worms? .... careful when feeding tubifex - they may carry parasites. But both will make your fry plump.


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