# Very worried about my bloated Betta



## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Fairly new Fish owner, we've had this betta for 3 months, in the past 3 weeks he has become very bloated. At first I thought it was just constipation because his diet wasn't varried and we had just returned home from a 4 day vacation and overfed him a little. 

But after fasting and feeding several times, the bloating hasn't gone down and we're pretty worried. For the stuff:

Housing 
What size is your tank? 1 Gallon
What temperature is your tank? Not sure
Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? A fern 

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Normally pellet foods 
How often do you feed your betta fish? Used to be 2 times a day 2-3 pellets

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 2-3 days
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50-60%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Betta Basics water treater

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
Had it tested at the fish shop, they said the ammonia, ph and nitrites were great (liquid test not strip), don't know about the other parameters. 


Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? quite bloated (see pictures)
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? He sulks a lot more, never flares at anything, clamps fins more often.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? 3 weeks ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Tried fasting and feeding different foods. In the past 3 weeks we've fed him very little actual food. We tried fasting and then feeding a couple peices of peas (very small, 2-3 peices about the size of a dried food pellet) and today we've tried feeding him some daphnia which he wasn't that interested in, but ate some of it. About 3-4 of the little bodies (freeze dried and soaked). 

Last week we also tried epsom salt (in a second container), at a concentration of 1 tsp / 2L or so. We left him in there for about 12 hours, with his heater. 

Does your fish have any history of being ill? Don't know 
How old is your fish (approximately)? we've had him for about 3 months

I'll try to attach pics. I'm very worried that it's something more than just constipation because nothing has really helped. He has hardly been pooping at all, but then again we haven't really been feeding him much.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

How has his poop looked? If it's white and stringy, it is usually an indication of internal parasites. If that's the case, I would see about starting him on a higher dose of epsom salt (2-3 tsp/gal) as well as either Jungle Labs Parasite Clear or General Cure. You could try the Jungle medicated pellets, but I've never had any success in getting any of bettas to eat them (I don't think they taste good, but you could try soaking them in garlic juice or blood worm juice).

If his poop isn't stringy, I'd still dose him on the epsom salt to attempt bringing the swelling down a little more aggressively. Premix the epsom salt at 2-3 tsp/gal and do 100% water changes daily. Leave him in the epsom salt mixture all day and night before changing his water. Try this for a few days to see if an swelling is reduced.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Thank you for the advice, the poop has been pretty stringy and pretty pale though not always white. When it has been there too it's been kind of hanging out of him for a while. Is this indicative of parasites? Does anyone else have any advice / insight on what to do as well?


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

Have you recently switched his food from a different type or brand? I know switching to freeze dried foods from flakes or pellets can cause some issues with bloating. Since he's not eating too much, I don't think his poop being paler is too much of a problem. I don't think it would hurt to start him on a round of parasite medication if the epsom salt doesn't work.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Welcome to the forum, Hachi. What a beautiful boy you have there 

Sorry to hear your betta isn't doing well. After reading through your sticky answers, here are some suggestion for future reference: (I hope you are not offended as it is by no means a lecture or anything. I am also new at this, so I also learn little by little every day from the forums and from my fish )

1) When you come home from vacation, just feed them the normal amount, I know it's always tempted to make up for "lost time" :-D

2) For a 1 gal tank, in the ideal world with no live plants or filters, the water should be 100% changed daily or every other day at the minimum. But since you have a live plant, that can be a bit flexible, but it's best to decide when and how much after you have tested the parameters of the water. I don't have live plants (yet), so I can't tell you my experience on this, but lots of people here have and can give you better guidelines.

3) Not sure how you heat up your 1 gal tank, but it is important to know what the temperature of the water in the tank is, so you may want to get a thermometer that you stick inside the tank to monitor the water as betta can't deal with fluctuating temp (or in case your heater temp gauge has malfunctioned)

4) If you decide on a treatment plan, find out what the min or max duration of that treatment is. You were on the right path to try the ES, but 12 hours will likely not make a huge difference. 

From what you have described so far, here are my differential diagnosis:
a) severely bloating from constipation (not likely)
b) bacterial infection
c) parasitic infection (suspicious due to stringy white poop)
d) in the worst case scenario, an accumulation of fluid due to organ failure. 

There are lots of experts here who are light years ahead in experience and knowledge than me and hopefully they can also give you more insights and treatment plans here. 

As PFF suggested, first line of treatment is ES. Start with a 2 tsp per gal of conditioned water and observe for a few days, and may need to up that to 3 tsp per gal if no improvement is noted. The ES will help with constipation and to draw the fluid out of the system. 

Do you currently have anti-bacterial or anti-parasitic meds on hand? 

Just want to wish you good luck with your guy. Hope he will be back to normal soon!

Cheers


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks for the re-iteration. I'm so worried about him because he's even more lethargic today and not it looks like he may even have some trouble with his fins that he didnt have yesterday. 

Just some question if I'm keeping him in epsom salt: 

Is it big enough to have him in a 1/2 gallon container with no substrate? 
Should I be feeding him more regularly, or keep fasting him? 
Last time I put a cup on its side in the epsom salt so that he could have somewhere to hide, is that ok or should it just be open?

This is all assuming epsom salt will kill the plant, and I can't do it in his normal tank.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Are his fins clamping up more or deteriorating? ES is ok with plants in tank, so no worries there. If he is still swimming a bit, the 1 gal may be better. I think you should try to feed him high protein food, so that he can have the strength to fight his battle. A cup is a great idea, they like to feel safe by hiding somewhere secluded, so it will be easier to manage that in a 1 gal tank without feeling cramped. 

I hope the other more experienced members will come to your rescue regarding the possible medicine intervention. 

Good luck!


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks again, I don't know if he will need the cup if we do ES in his normal tank, (I don't know if there is even space for it) because he really likes his plant. I'm still worried that the salt will be bad for our plant, because it is salt after all. I suppose we could move the plant, but as i said before he really likes the plant. 

Sadly now it looks like his fins are deteriorating / rotting, it looks like this has just started on the tips of a few fins. I'm so worried now because I'm not sure how we're going to deal with all this stuff that's going wrong.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

It's normal to be worry, but take a deep breath....take it one step at a time. 
As for your concern regarding ES and plants, ES is Magnesium Sulfate and AQ is Sodium Chloride. Magnesium sulfate has been used as plant fertilizers for eons, so I think it's perfectly safe to leave your plant in the tank. My only concern is that if there is something infectious going on, I wonder if your plant may be harboring and propagating them? Sorry, not a botanist or a true aquarist here. At the same time, we want to make your betta as comfortable and familiar in his surrounding as possible.

Try to PM Darkmoon, OFL or Sakura if you still haven't received other help on this.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Is it normal to be able to see his scales, even if only slightly? (I mean the outline / raised nature not the individual colors.) I think i'm being overly paranoid about this part.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Welcome to the forum and sorry you are having problems...

First...you really need to get us a water temp....what kind of heater are you using...both the preset and adjustable type heaters can cause the water temp to vary based on room temp....

Epsom salt is plant safe-it is often used for plant food and since this is a fern it is aquarium salt tolerant anyway.....

With multi issues....I would get Epsom salt (Not aquarium salt) and tannins started...use the smaller QT container for treatment-you want to maintain the water temp in the 76-77F range and cover the top of the QT container with plastic veggie wrap to retain heat and humidity for the labyrinth organ, dim lights, quite location....hold food for 2 days and then offer small frequent meals

Premix the treatment water in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water-Add Epsom salt 3tsp/gal and tannins-either IAL or dried Oak leaf-let this steeps for 30min-1hr to release tannins and salt to dissolve....shake well before use and use this premixed Tx water for the 100% daily water changes in QT for 10-14 days...

First acclimate him to the Tx water by making 50% water change every hour for 2 hours and start the 100% tomorrow-that will count as day one.....

You will need a thermometer to check the temp of both the QT water and the premixed Tx water to make sure they are within a few degrees of each other to prevent temp shock related problems....until then-make 50% twice-5 min apart when you make the 100%.....

With raised scales-he may be pine-coned and showing the symptom of dropsy....sadly, since he is progressing so fast-he may be in system shut down and recovery is often grim.....but don't give up......

In 1gal unfiltered tanks-regular water changes of twice weekly-1-50% and 1-100% should maintain water quality, assist in development of a strong immune response and fin health....provided that he is not overfed, uneaten food is removed within a reasonable time, proper dose of dechlorinator is used and proper acclimation to both temp and chemistry are made with 100% water changes.......


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

The heater is a non-adjustable very basic 7.5w heater meant for 1-3gal bowls. Unfortunately we don't have a thermometer that works in the water at that temp right now (but will get one). 

Also, should I just start with Epsom salt water + tannin, or should we start with ES + Anti parasite, or ES + Antibiotics etc.?

Also what kind of tannin/how to use them with the fish water? Can I just get tannin at the aquarium store?


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Hachi said:


> Is it normal to be able to see his scales, even if only slightly? (I mean the outline / raised nature not the individual colors.) I think i'm being overly paranoid about this part.


As I had mentioned on my first post, the worst case scenario would be accumulation of fluid due to organ failure which means dropsy (a symptom and not a disease). It seems that some fish will have the entire body swells up and some only have the front part that your betta exhibits. If you google dropsy, try to see if it is similar in appearance in which you could see the scales raised. I have never seen in real life or treated dropsy (and hope never will have to), but most people will usually go for ES for the first line of defense to try to draw the fluid out in conjunction with medicine to help fight it because it is usually due to some sort of infection. 

If you don't want to PM the experts, try to search through this forum as there were quite a few of dropsy cases recently. 

Best of luck!


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

This is what dropsy looks like:







At this point there's really no recovery based on my experiences with it. I've always been recommended 3 tsp/gal of epsom salt along with a bacterial or parasite medication.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks, he's looking the same more or less as the pictures I uploaded at the start of the thread yesterday. So it doesn't look like he has the pine coning, but if you look really really closely you can see his scales, I may just be looking more closely than I've looked before.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

It could be that, but I would still try the 3 tsp/gal of epsom salt. Even if he isn't pine coning he is still very swollen in his stomach area and the epsom should help with that.

I hope he gets better very quickly. He's a pretty boy.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

About the Tannins, I kind of doubt I can get IAL leaves at the AQ store, or oak leaves. Is there anything I should prefer as alternative? Green tea? Decaf green tea? An "IAL Additive" (I think i saw one but I think it has more than just IAL in it)? 

Would it be better to leave them out if I can't find the right ones, or should I use decaf green tea as better than nothing. If I use it, how long should I steep it? I assume shorter than plain IAL leaves... 

Still wondering If we should also do a course of anti parasite drugs.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Turns out the Tank Temp, right now at the peak of our apartment's warmth (afternoon is the only time we get direct sunlight) is 86 degrees, which is a bit over what is recommended. How bad is that? I have a feeling it will drop to much cooler in a few hours when our apt cools down a bit. 

He's being a lot more active and interactive right now though, which may be because we fed him today.

Also, they didn't have the jungle anti parasite med, so I ended up getting the malachite green / nitrofurazone med for parasites (actually for Ich). Should I not use this? I read that malachite green was a good treatment for bettas somewhere... Should I wait on this and just run the epsom salt first?


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Turns out the almond leaf extract has salt and some other stuff in it, so maybe it was a bad purchase and I'm not going to use it yet. Couldn't find any decafinated green tea either, or IAL / Oak leaves...


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

If you can't find a good source of tannins, just leave them out and keep him ina dark place so he can rest and relax. As far as the medication you bought, I'm unfamiliar with it, but if it's for treating ich, then it probably won't do anything to get his problem solved. Just use the epsom salt for now because it could actually confirm a diagnosis of parasites or bacteria.

If you can't find Jungle brand you could try API General Cure since it's for getting rid of parasites both internal and external. I'd wait to medicate until you could get a good idea of what his poop is from the epsom salt. If it's stringy and white, start parasite medication. If it's not and his swelling hasn't decreased, start him on a bacterial medication (preferably maracyn 2 if you can find it). You can also treat with maracyn 1, but I don't think that'll work for an internal bacterial infection since I've never had success in treating dropsy cases with it.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Well, he pooped. It was small, but not white and stringy, and the bloating went down a little but not a whole lot.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Yay!! That's good news! Hopefully he will improve day by day. 
Keep up the good work.

Cheers


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Actually I also found some stringy poo in there just now as well.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

Was the poop a solid white? Or was it just a paler color than his food?

If it's solid white and stringy, then start him on parasite medication and keep him on the epsom salt. If it's just paler, keep him on the epsom salt and watch him closely.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Pataflafla said:


> Was the poop a solid white? Or was it just a paler color than his food?
> 
> If it's solid white and stringy, then start him on parasite medication and keep him on the epsom salt. If it's just paler, keep him on the epsom salt and watch him closely.


No it wasn't, just stringy, part of it was kind of translucent part of it was the standard rust color.


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

I think it just might be his body extracting as much as he can out of his food so there's not much left in terms of matter to be voided.

If his swelling still doesn't go down in a few days or something else happens in the meantime, then start him on some bacterial medication. I think maracyn2 would be most effective since it specifically says it treats dropsy (I'm guessing the bacterial cause of it).


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

Found some mild organic decafinated green tea. Could this be used for tannins? Do something like steep for a shorter amount of time than would IAL leaves?


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

If you can get decaf green tea without any other flavors or additives, then you could let it steep ina coffee mug for however long you feel necessary (water should be tea colored for best effect) and slowly add it into the tank ever 15 minutes. Decaf green tea should be fine, but it doesn't have quite the same properties as IAL or Oak leaves.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

So we just did our first 100% water change. Dripped a tiny bit of the green tea from a mug in (the water color is hardly changed). 

My one concern doing this was that there has to be a better way to change the water. I got him out in a cup, where he waited in the old water while we changed it, then I poured the cup into our fish net and put him back into his new ES water (I didn't want any of the old TX water to be mixed in, because of the fin rot for example)... but the whole thing seemed very stressful. 

Is there a way that might be easier on him?


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## Pataflafla (Jun 2, 2011)

The way I do it is to pour out some of the cup water until there's barely enough room for them to swim and then tip it so they come to the edge of the cup. Once they're swimming in the direction I slowly pour them towards the clean water (I keep the cup in the new water so they don't feel as stressed), and once they're facing the edge of the cup, gently pour them in. Sometimes it's just best to let the old water mix with the new if they're easily stressed and let them swim out of the cup on their own.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't know if he's going to make it through tonight... He's extremely listless now and only moves to get air every few minutes. I did another water change with less concentrated epsom salt, making sure the water was within 1 tick on the thermometer... I don't think I can do anything about it to help him either. He's now on his side on the bottom more or less. I'm pretty sure I killed him though and I feel terrible about it.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Hachi, 

Sorry to hear your betta is deteriorating. Please don't beat yourself up over this. Most of us learn from our mistakes and thank goodness for forums like this which keep our mistakes to the minimum by asking for advice etc. 

Ok. My question to you is what is the reason you are lowering the ES dosage? What is your current treatment? If anything, you need to up the ES dosage to max 3 tsp/gal conditioned water. I know OFL advised you on this, but not sure what you are currently doing.

Do you have maracyn and maracyn II on hand? How about Jungle's Anti Parasite pellets? or Metronidazole?


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't really have anything for him. I reduced the ES because I thought if he was moving before with the lower ES concentration that maybe he'd start moving again now if I reduced it again. I have a combination Malachite Green / Nitrofurazone, but I don't think that would help, plus it's not in a form I could easily use (meant for much much more water). All he is in right now is water w/ some ES water. Probably around 50/50, or 1.5 tsp / gal concentration. 

I don't even know if he can recover from the state he's in. He's basically not moving at all, just up every 1 or 2 minutes to get air, then he sinks back down. Sometimes it takes him a minute or so to sink. His fins aren't clamped, and they're not moving either they're just kind of hanging to the side. He's just kind of moving his mouth slightly and his gills a little in between. Completely unresponsive to anything, even food. I feel really responsible and extremely sad.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Hachi said:


> I don't really have anything for him. I reduced the ES because I thought if he was moving before with the lower ES concentration that maybe he'd start moving again now if I reduced it again.


In this case based on the severity of your betta, unfortunately it doesn't work that way. It is the same for humans, if you were prescribed a specific dosage and time period to treat an illness you have, you will probably feel better as you start your treatment, but you wouldn't stop now without finishing it as you would likely to have a rebound effect. 



> I have a combination Malachite Green / Nitrofurazone, but I don't think that would help, plus it's not in a form I could easily use (meant for much much more water). All he is in right now is water w/ some ES water. Probably around 50/50, or 1.5 tsp / gal concentration.


I have no personal experience with MG at all, and you are right, dosage wise it is difficult to manage and overdosing the fish can also be harmful as well



> I don't even know if he can recover from the state he's in. He's basically not moving at all, just up every 1 or 2 minutes to get air, then he sinks back down. Sometimes it takes him a minute or so to sink. His fins aren't clamped, and they're not moving either they're just kind of hanging to the side. He's just kind of moving his mouth slightly and his gills a little in between. Completely unresponsive to anything, even food. I feel really responsible and extremely sad.


How shallow is the water? Be sure it is easier for him to get to the top and back to the bottom by lowering the water level. You can only try your best and hopefully be more knowledgeable about proper fish care etc. in the future.


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## Hachi (Aug 29, 2011)

He was gone in the morning.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

So sorry to hear of your loss. 

Take care!


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