# Please help! Tumor? Parasites? We might be losing him... :((



## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Please help! We have been struggling with our little guy, Jr, for a month or two now. We have posted several times about various things. Today he is really bad. We don't know what to do. (

We have decided it probably isn't TB since he no longer looks like he has a curved spine. Could it be some kind of abdominal tumor? Do they get those? How about parasites? Could he have gotten them from his frozen food? Might that be why his belly is so big and his eye is so bad? If so, what can we do to treat him? It's time for the big guns. We think he's critical. (

I'm sorry we can't post pictures. My little camera won't focus on something so close up. I have tried over and over again. Please help. Any ideas would be appreciated. I will go back to the pet store today to ask, but I don't always trust what they tell me. We're out of ideas and he's in trouble. See sticky below.

*Housing 
What size is your tank?* 5 gallon live planted mini-bow
*What temperature is your tank?* 78-80 F
*Does your tank have a filter?* Yes but just charcoal filter set up that came with the tank
*Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?* Just the waterfall flow from filter
*Is your tank heated?* Yes
*What tank mates does your betta fish live with?* Small olive nerite snails only

*Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?* Hikari frozen blood worms, Hikari frozen brine shrimp, Hikari frozen tubifex worms, Aqueon betta pellets, Atison's betta pellets, Omega One betta pellets, Hikari Bio-Gold betta pellets (We fed other brands of frozen prior to this.)
*How often do you feed your betta fish? *3 times a day (We feed a wide variety of high protein, small, frequent meals to help with the tail biting)

*Maintenance** 
How often do you perform a water change? *2X/week
*What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? *50%
*What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Aqueon water conditioner (+ age water 2 days)

*Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?* Yes

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7
Hardness: High
Alkalinity: 

*Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *Started tail biting again, developed bad popeye on one side, developed a bump on both sides of his body. At first we thought it almost looked like scoliosis or curved spine. You guys suggested TB in that case. But the bump is now clearly in his belly, not a curved spine, and it just keeps growing slowly with time. We no longer think TB. The bump is about even on both sides. It looks like it's his stomach. The rest of his abdomen looks fine. It's not swollen or bloated overall. But his stomach now protrudes sharply on both sides of his body. Like the body of a snake who swallowed a bowling ball. It just keeps getting worse (bigger) over last 1-2 months. His popeye is much worse today. It looks like it is literally about to explode. ( We feel SO bad for him and don't know what to do.

*How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *Lethargic and interacts with us less; has been less active, but was still eating well until today. He was okay until I got up this a.m. For the first time, he wouldn't eat this morning. He wouldn't even come up for air. Even trying to stimulate him to come up did nothing. I could see his gills moving but that's it. I have never seen him like this and we are really worried. (

*When did you start noticing the symptoms? *A month or two ago.

*Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *Per recommendations from the group, we floated him in his tank in a small Gladware quarantine container for the last 10 days, being treated with Maracyn II and epsom salts, with 100% daily water changes of the QT container. That did nothing. We went another 10 days of treatment in QT, also adding green tea. Still no change. Released him back into his tank for lack of other ideas. He had been much happier in his tank, but the eye and the stomach bump just kept getting worse. 

*Does your fish have any history of being ill? *Yes we have been fighting the tail biting for almost as long as we have had him. Very frustrating. Other than his ongoing neurosis he had been healthy until this illness started a month or two ago.

*How old is your fish (approximately)? *We got him from PetCo a year and 3 months ago.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Sadly, if it is a tumor-short of taking him to a vet...not a lot we can do as a hobbyist-except to make them comfy and do what is right by the Betta when we have tried everything and end their suffering......

It sounds like you have tried everything and he continues to decline......I would at least place him in a shallow container so he doesn't have to struggle to get to air, dim lit quiet location-add Epsom salt 3tsp/gal and tannins.....it may be time to do what is right by him....and humanely euthanize....... only you can make that call.....but it is cruel to allow any creature to suffer needlessly.......sorry I couldn't be a more help........


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Pics are attached. Sorry they are so dark and blurry. It is the best we can do. They don't show the problems very well, but look for the large left popeye and the belly bulge.


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## LaLaLeyla (Aug 17, 2011)

Its looks pretty bad 
I agree with Oldfishlady.
At this point it might be better to euthanize him.


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Okay, whoa...

First of all, we don't want to give up on him. We want to help him. I go to all lengths for my animals. If we could take him to a vet, we would. Surely there is something we can do... How can we give up when we don't even know what is wrong? Is there any way it is parasites causing the belly bulge and the popeye? I went to a good local pet store today and asked their fish guy. He said it could be parasites and gave me some meds. Thoughts? 

Secondly, when you say humanely euthanize, what do you mean? Given that we can't take him to a vet, I have no idea how to accomplish this. If you mean do it myself somehow, there is no way. Steve would have to do it. I can't. Having had three cats with lymphoma, I understand getting to a point where you can't allow your animals to suffer. But I also understand that sometimes we underestimate our animals, and sometimes people give up when it gets too hard for the people. I'm not that type of pet parent. I just really don't know what to do here.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

To understand-you have had the Betta 1yr 3mo and he was most likely 6-8mo when you got him making him roughly 2 years of age....he has been in this condition for 1-2 months and a chronic tail bitter....he has had a round of antibiotics and Epsom salt 3tsp/gal 10-14 days treatment...he can't swim to get to air, lethargic, no longer interacts and has stopped eating, can no longer support his own body, curved/bent spine...he has an enlarged belly with a bulge and swollen eyes....correct......

Have you tried the worm medication that you received at the pet shop...is it oral or something you add to the water....

the second photo shows a bulge outside the gut area-which is often an indication of a tumor....

I understand that you want to do everything you can and don't want to give up on him.......and we are not asking you to, however, look as his quality of life and ask yourself who you are saving him for.......are you doing this for him or yourself......I don't want to sound insensitive.......but.....its cruel to allow a creature to suffer needlessly-he has been like this for 2 months and not responding to treatments/medication......When we are responsible for animals and responsible pet owners..... as sad as it may seem.....sometimes we have to make selfless choices in the best interest of the animal...its never easy........euthanasia is not giving up....its a selfless act by a responsible pet owner......


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi OFL,

I completely understand what you are saying... However, he has not been in this condition for 1-2 months. He has been like *this* since this morning. I've been through end-of-life issues with enough pets (and counselled enough other parents of cancer pets through an outreach program) to recognize the change in his quality of life as of today and how important it is to resolve it for him one way or another as soon as possible. Thus the urgency. While it is true he wasn't feeling like a rock star before today (last 1-2 mos), he *definitely* still had quality of life. He still was active, though it was reduced by comparison to prior activity levels. He would still interact with us, always ate well, etc, regardless of the developing eye and the belly issues. Today it's different. Today he turned a corner in the wrong direction, and we recognize that. The second photo to which you are referring does show the belly bulge the best. I'm not familiar enough with fish anatomy to know to which organ(s) the bulge corresponds. It has definitely been getting slowly bigger over the referenced time period. It is interesting to know that you feel the location of the bulge may be an indication of tumor. (After having a history of adopting pets whom I knew would develop cancer, and going through that with all of them over several years, I was physically, financially and emotionally exhausted and needed a break. My solution was to have a simple fish as an animal companion for a while instead. He is currently our "only child". I cannot believe I may have ended up with a fish who also developed cancer. I didn't even know fish got cancer. Though not much in the animal kingdom can escape it, so I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised.) 

I would like to try the parasite medication and see what happens, if Jr is up to it. (Although I have to say I am afraid to go home tonight after work and check on him...  The pet store guy gave me two parasite meds. One of them is oral and the other is a water additive. (This came up when I expressed concern over getting food into him, and thus meds that were dependent upon his willingness to eat.) 

I assume there are no cancer treatment options for fish, correct?

If there are any other possibilities for a different diagnosis or other ideas for treatment I would love to hear them.

In the event none of the above works, what do we do? This seems a revolting question to ask, but given that we can't take him to a vet to put him down, if that's what needs to be done, what is the solution? (Again, this would have to fall to Steve. There is no way I could do whatever is required.)

Thanks.


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## bby1984 (Jul 18, 2011)

Is he still swimming fairly well? Does he have trouble getting to the surface for air? If he is having difficulties you can lower the water level for him. You can also add lots of high resting places that are close to the surface. What ever his ailment if it has been developing for several months it is advanced and may not be curable at this point. Popeye is often a sign of a bacterial infection as can be a swollen belly. If you have been treating your betta for bacterial disease and it is not helping then it may not be bacterial. I have to say after reading the information that you gave it sure sounds to me like your betta may be suffering from fatty liver disease. You listed a lot of very high quality, rich foods that you feed him which is not a bad thing. However, if you are feeding frozen foods once or more a day it is, as frozen foods are meant to be used supplementary to a healthy diet. Once or twice a week unless you are conditioning your fish for breeding. Personally, I think you are over feeding. Do you give your betta a fasting day once a week to help keep his digestive system healthy? If he were mine I would and I'd also change his feeding schedule to once a day or Very small amounts twice a day. I would feed him pellet every feeding for all but two feedings per week and other foods no more than two feedings per week. That is, frozen/freeze-dried foods one feeding, two separate days per week if you feed more than once per day. It wont hurt him and it very well could help him get better.

If he is a tail biter you might try adding distractions to his home. Place a mirror next to his tank for short periods of time a couple times a day. Show him images or video of female betta and add a small piece of bubble wrap to the surface to see if you can encourage bubble nesting. change up his decor once a week and give him lots of caves and such to explore. There are lots of things you can do to try and keep him entertained. I think increasing his feeding schedule is the worst. Good luck!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Maybe he was meant to be with you because of your experience......I know thats not much comfort for you.....

There are treatments, however, that would require a vet and surgery and sadly we are dealing with a fish that has a life span of 2-3 years- rarely 4-5 years.......

All the important organs are housed in one area in fish-that is right under the head in the stomach area excluding the swim bladder that extend slightly above/beyond that follows the lateral line.....by looking at that #2 pic.....the bulge extend beyond the gut or internal organs-and this could either be- a lone tumor or the gut being displaced by a tumor...would be my best guess- common tumors are gonad, kidney and fatty liver disease that can cause the symptom you are posting....you have to understand that we are limited on the internet to a "best guess" for diagnosis and totally rely on information given to us and what little pic that can often be misleading for many reasons...without having the fish in hand it is impossible to give a firm diagnosis and even with animal in hand we are limited with some cases......I have been in the medical field (human) for well over 35 years and I do understand the difficulties when dealing with death and dying in my own practice(retired)...its never easy....

The best method to euthanize is often the hardest for some hobbyist.... that being decapitation-its fast and due to the limited perception a fish has...painless......next would be overdose of clove oil and then freezing...many disagree with the freezing method-but to understand how a fish is wired can give some comfort to know that its not painful or cruel....the fish goes to sleep and their system shuts down, heart stops beating and they die.......


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Fatty liver disease? Really? I am familiar with this in cats, but not in fish. Interesting... We were told on here last year that we were not feeding him high enough quality protein and not feeding him often enough, which was causing his tail biting. So, (amongst other modifications) we switched his feeding schedule to two pellets at breakfast, two frozen worms/shrimp/etc at dinner and two pellets as late as possible before we went to bed. (It was overnight that he usually went at his tail with the most regularily.) It did help his tail biting. Yes, we do fast him one day of every week and soak his food before feeding.

It's so difficult when everyone gives you conflicting information. Everyone seems to have a different opinion as to how much of what to feed when. How can someone sort it out and do what's right for their fish?

If this illness is something we actually caused rather than something organic, we will be very upset.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear this about Jr, he's such a handsome little guy. I would have to agree with OFL on her recommendations. As for the topic which is very hard to talk about to any pet owner, I can give you a few ideas to try to make it as easy as I can for Steve. I'm so sorry, really I am  You have and are doing all you can, and I don't blame you for trying. But in case the fight is too much, here are a few ideas that may help make it easier for your family:

Tricaine Methanesulfonate (TMS). This method is probably the most quoted by people with much experience in euthanizing fish humanely (i.e. for university experiments, etc.). TMS is also known as MS222 and commercially is known as Finquel. You can buy it from a pet supply store. Simply by doubling the regular dose that you would use to anesthetize the fish will euthanize it. This substance is FDA approved for anesthetizing and euthanizing fish; it is the only product that is FDA approved to anesthetize fish.

Clove Oil/Vodka Method. Many fish keepers advocate using clove oil to anesthetize fish. You both anesthetize them first with the clover oil and dispatch the fish with another method or you give them such a strong concentration of clove oil that the clove oil alone will kill them.

Freezing is a commonly used method for euthanizing warm water fish. To freeze your fish, freeze water in a small bag until the ice is slushy. Then place your fish in the water and continue to freeze it. Out of all the "old-school" methods, this process seems most humane.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Woops, sorry! I didn't mean to double post info that was already posted.. I think OFL was responding when I was, and I stopped to take dog out and didn't see she had responded. Sorry


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

FishyWishy said:


> Fatty liver disease? Really? I am familiar with this in cats, but not in fish. Interesting... We were told on here last year that we were not feeding him high enough quality protein and not feeding him often enough, which was causing his tail biting. So, (amongst other modifications) we switched his feeding schedule to two pellets at breakfast, two frozen worms/shrimp/etc at dinner and two pellets as late as possible before we went to bed. (It was overnight that he usually went at his tail with the most regularily.) It did help his tail biting. Yes, we do fast him one day of every week and soak his food before feeding.
> 
> It's so difficult when everyone gives you conflicting information. Everyone seems to have a different opinion as to how much of what to feed when. How can someone sort it out and do what's right for their fish?
> 
> If this illness is something we actually caused rather than something organic, we will be very upset.


Your feeding and food choices are just fine....it has/had nothing to do with what is going on with him right now......


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Thank you, OFL. This is very helpful. I feel as though I am having to go at this blindly. Not having the ability to access any medical resources (consultations, diagnostics, labs, etc) that can tell me what is going on is difficult. I do have some perspective and I do realize he's just a small fish, not a dog, cat, horse or human, but the emotional attachment and the sense of responsibility for another's life, however small, remains. It's pretty uncomfortable to have to make life and death decisions based on nothing but internet research and heresay rather than science one can see on paper for themselves. I don't like to guess. I like to know. And it seems I can't do that here. I am in no way qualified to dx what is going on with Jr and can't get him to a doc who can.

Having brought various animals back from the brink when others said it was highly unlikely or impossible has taught me that tenacity often pays off. The problem is when you get to a point where the discomfort is at such a level that it doesn't matter if the "fix" may be right around the corner. Right around the corner is sometimes too long to decide on their behalf that they should wait.

It doesn't seem there are a lot of resources available to help diseased fish in this position. Inability to *do something* stinks, frankly. I guess I can try feeding less, treating with the parasite meds, doing more research and see which direction this is heading. Assuming we have the opportunity. It's time to head home and see where this stands. 

Thank you for the information and input. We really appreciate it.


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## betta dude (May 22, 2011)

poor guy


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## Foisair (Aug 3, 2011)

My thoughts and prayers are with you on FishyWishy. I hope his suffering will end shortly. One way or another. I would, and I know everyone here would, prefer the getting better way. -hugs-


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## bby1984 (Jul 18, 2011)

FishyWishy said:


> Thank you, OFL. This is very helpful. I feel as though I am having to go at this blindly. Not having the ability to access any medical resources (consultations, diagnostics, labs, etc) that can tell me what is going on is difficult. I do have some perspective and I do realize he's just a small fish, not a dog, cat, horse or human, but the emotional attachment and the sense of responsibility for another's life, however small, remains. It's pretty uncomfortable to have to make life and death decisions based on nothing but internet research and heresay rather than science one can see on paper for themselves. I don't like to guess. I like to know. And it seems I can't do that here. I am in no way qualified to dx what is going on with Jr and can't get him to a doc who can.
> 
> Having brought various animals back from the brink when others said it was highly unlikely or impossible has taught me that tenacity often pays off. The problem is when you get to a point where the discomfort is at such a level that it doesn't matter if the "fix" may be right around the corner. Right around the corner is sometimes too long to decide on their behalf that they should wait.
> 
> ...


I am sorry that your fish is ill. I empathize with you and understand how attached that a person can become to their fish. I think it takes a level of compassion that many people are not capable of to care for a fish as much as you care for yours. You are obviously a great owner! 

Unfortunately internal diseases and disorders are extremely difficult to diagnose and therefore hard to treat in fish. The only way to make a definitive diagnoses is to have a veterinarian trained in the treatment of fish evaluate your betta and discover what is wrong. The best that any owner can do alone is treating by a process of elimination. Most fish treatments are broad spectrum and hit or miss. There is no way that anyone on this forum can diagnose exactly what is wrong with your friend, however, if fatty liver disease or some other liver disorder is the cause then a change in diet will help your betta. Liver disorders in fish are similar to those in humans. They are caused by issues with diet and exercise, the intake of toxins into the body (commonly alcohol in humans and ammonia /byproducts in fish), or genetics. It sounds like your water quality is also great and that you take great care of your tank. It sounds like the amounts that you are feeding are good for a healthy fish and I use the same foods to feed my fish. Everything that I have ever been taught says that frozen, freeze dried, and live foods should be fed sparingly… Kind of like having a steak dinner or meaty hamburger a couple nights a week. Although I may not develop health issues from eating steak and hamburgers everyday it is not the best idea. Bettas, especially male, in the aquarium are built quite differently from wild betta and therefore have different diet requirements. I have had to use food to curb bad behaviors before but usually only in situations of overcrowding and small confinement, never with my own personal fish though. To be honest this is mostly out of personal preference I guess. It sounds like you are fighting a difficult battle with the tail biting and all coupled with everything else. =/

Unfortunately, there are many opinions in the aquatic hobby and a lot of misinformation so evaluating all information with a critical eye is a must. It really sucks! I was fortunate to work for an aquatic veterinarian, breeder and researcher throughout late high school and early college until she passed away. She was a great friend and taught me a lot. I also cared for fish at a large pet store distribution center so I learned and saw a lot. :shock: Despite that I am still learning tons of new things every day. Over the years I have developed a good critical eye. Ultimately, often the best we can do is to take in all of the information and then use it to make an informed decision. I really hope your betta gets better!

Bobby


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks for the hugs, kind thoughts and great information, guys. It does help.

I may not be that hopeful, but regardless, I am happy to report that when I got home last night, Jr was there to greet me. He came swimming up to the top of his tank to say hello and ask for food as soon as I walked in the room.  He ate his dinner and his late night snack yesterday without hesitation. I removed him from his tank and put him back in his floating QT cup with the pre-mixed parasite meds, epsom salts and green tea water. I hate having him in there. He doesn't like it and expends so much energy trying to get out, until he eventually gives up. He doesn't get any exercise, either. But, if it's easier for him to get air, I guess it is best. His popeye and belly bulge look the same (bad). But at least he is swimming around again, as opposed to the way he was yesterday morning. 

We'll see how he is when I get home tonight... Fingers crossed!


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Bobby - Wait, there are fish vets? Seriously? Are these common place and available for pet owners? If so, how do I find one? I'm guessing if they do exist, they may focus on treating large or expensive fish, such a koi, saltwater, specialty, etc. However, if there is one in my area I am more than willing to take Jr there, if they will allow it. Don't want to get my hopes up that there may be one in my city. I'll have to Google it.


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## Neil D (Apr 10, 2011)

I am really sorry about Jr. But the "greeting" thing seems like a good sign. Are you treating him in any form of salt or other medications as of now?


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## bby1984 (Jul 18, 2011)

FishyWishy said:


> Bobby - Wait, there are fish vets? Seriously? Are these common place and available for pet owners? If so, how do I find one? I'm guessing if they do exist, they may focus on treating large or expensive fish, such a koi, saltwater, specialty, etc. However, if there is one in my area I am more than willing to take Jr there, if they will allow it. Don't want to get my hopes up that there may be one in my city. I'll have to Google it.


 Yep they are around but little known. A vet has to choose to take the specialty training so not all vets treat fish. Just call your local vet offices and ask if they treat aquatic animals or know of a local vet that does. In my area there are a few vet offices that do treat aquatic animals. It does not matter if you have a 20cent comet or a $500 discus, if they treat freshwater fish the species does not matter. It’s really cool, they can take x-rays of your fish and diagnose just about anything. You can also often get specially medicated foods to help treat internal illness otherwise difficult to treat. Keep us posted on what you find out!


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi all,

Update: Jr is on his way now to a fish vet! (Actually the doc is an exotics vet with training in aquatics who sometimes sees fish. It was the best I could find in our city.) I have to work so Steve is taking Jr in. If the vet confirms cancer, fatty liver, parasites, etc, hopefully he can tell us what to do next. If treatment is available, we'll take it. If no treatment is available, we will feel a lot better having to let him go if we KNOW what's wrong and that there is no hope of helping him.

I'll keep you posted.


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## bby1984 (Jul 18, 2011)

FishyWishy said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Update: Jr is on his way now to a fish vet! (Actually the doc is an exotics vet with training in aquatics who sometimes sees fish. It was the best I could find in our city.) I have to work so Steve is taking Jr in. If the vet confirms cancer, fatty liver, parasites, etc, hopefully he can tell us what to do next. If treatment is available, we'll take it. If no treatment is available, we will feel a lot better having to let him go if we KNOW what's wrong and that there is no hope of helping him.
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


Great job finding some help for Jr! I am happy that you will soon have a resolution to your problem. I have my fingers crossed that it is something that can be fixed and that you have much more time to enjoy each other. Looking forward to an update. =)


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## Neil D (Apr 10, 2011)

Yup, please keep us updated.


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Jr has been to the vet! (Who knew...? 

Thanks to Bobby, OFL and everyone else who has been helping. We appreciate your wisdom and experience!

I had to work, so Steve took him in. (Kudos to Steve for doing a great job with his first ever trip to a vet! I guess if you fall for a hard core "animal person" you end up at a veterinarian's office holding a cup with a fish in it. ;-) The vet sounds very nice. I had some info typed up re: what was going on (as seen in the "sticky"), so he had the history available during the exam. Doc said his top two suspects would be bacterial infection or cancer. (He didn't think it was parasites.) Doc said if Jr were bigger, he would consider biopsy of the abdominal mass, but it doesn't sound like he wanted to go that route. (He didn't offer the xrays mentioned by another member, either. Nor did he mention the possibility of fatty liver. When he calls me, I will inquire.) He checked Jr out and said he looked fairly good. He seems to think Jr may have cataracts...? As for the abdominal lump, he said to try a different antibiotic first. If that doesn't work, sounds like we have to assume the abdominal mass is cancer. He didn't think Jr was suffering at the moment or that we needed to make an immediate decision, which eases my mind. Doc decided the best course of treatment was antibiotic injections directly into the abdominal mass every three days, and then see. Jr got his first shot today. He has to go back for another on Friday and then Monday. Apparently they put him in a plastic baggy and gave him the shot thru the bag? Doc told us to keep him in his QT cup and continue the salt bath, etc, to soothe him, rather than putting him back in his tank. (He said to discontinue the parasite meds.) Apparently he is going to do some more research and get back to us. I haven't seen the report myself yet so don't know what antibiotic was used. We'll see what it says. They even weighed him! He is one of their smallest patients at a whole 26 grams. 

I don't know that we're going to end up with the answer we want, but it feels a whole lot better being able to get some help and if all else fails, know we did everything we could. I'm still hopeful he may get better with the new meds. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks, guys. Fingers crossed! We'll keep you posted.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Awesome...lucky that you had a vet near by that deals with fish too....I am surprised that the vet didn't aspirate the mass to check for cells, bacteria..etc.....really small fish are a challenge to work with though......sure wish they would have done x-ray.......

Please keep us posted and tell us everything......
If you don't mind sharing and I understand if you don't....but what did it cost......


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi OFL,

I plan to ask about aspirating the mass, fatty liver and xrays when the doc calls. 

I'm a little uncomfortable b/c while this exotics vet does sometimes treat fish and has had some aquatics training, he is not an aquatics specialist. Thus he may not be as well versed in what should be done here as someone who only treats fish would be. But he's the best I can find in my city.

We don't mind sharing about our experience at all. The initial consultation was $42, which is their standard charge for exotics. They haven't billed us for the three AB injections yet, so I have no idea what they will cost. I'm definitely on a fixed income and a tight budget, but whatever this will cost can't be that bad by comparison. After paying for four years of feline lymphoma care out-of-pocket (labs, chemo, ICU, bone marrow stimulant meds, etc), a $42 vet visit seems too low to be real. Definitely more than the cost of the fish and I honestly can't say I ever expected to have vet bills for a fish, but he's our pet and it's worth it. We'll post the cost of the injections when we get the bill and let you guys know what the doc says.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Great...and I understand...pets are pets....be it.... fins or fur....lol......

That is not a bad price for the initial visit...do you know what kind of antibiotic they used and dosage....

I rescue lots of animals myself....sometimes I wonder if there is a sign on my gate that tells animals both wild and domestic to come-on-down.....weak, injured, sick and homeless.....laffs.....and they are welcomed with open arms and cared for with a forever home with me or released back into the wild.....I guess thats why I am up to 29 cats....lol.....good thing I live on a large cattle ranch way out in the woods with lots of hay barns...I admit, more live in the house than should...but what can I say....the baby opossum gets to live in the house (due to drought/heat)....lol.....which reminds me I need to update the pic of her in my album-she could fit in the palm of my hand when I found her cold wet and half dead...she will soon be released once I get her acclimated to the weather once the heat index drops........I am lucky though....with my training/education- I don't have to use vets all that much except for spay/neuter.....I can do most everything else including minor surgery on my own animals even though my degree is in human medicine and retired so I have time......

Keep us posted.....


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## Neil D (Apr 10, 2011)

Keep us updated on his condition. I really hope he pulls through...


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## FishyWishy (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi all,

Well, Jr has had four antibiotic injections by the vet into his abdominal mass. No change. 

Today the vet called to discuss our options. Based on the fact that it isn't bacterial, he thinks it's probably cancer. I asked about aspirating the mass. He said he could, but it most likely would not change the outcome or give us any treatment options, and it could be dangerous. He said he would just be taking a blind sample, not having any idea what he was putting the needle into. He warned that if it is a highly vascularized tumor, Jr could bleed out from the needle stick. Or that if his organs are displaced and are back there in his abdomen where the lump is and he takes a sample, it could cause major problems. (Although he did say that he stuck him there four times already to give the injections without harm.) He said the pathology would be $200. I told him it was important to my peace of mind to know what what is going on with Jr, but I was bothered with the thought of putting him through something possibly dangerous and stressful. I asked him to let us talk about it and get back to him.

This isn't the outcome I was hoping for.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I was just thinking about you and wondered what had happened...so glad you updated...but sorry you are not getting/hearing the outcome that is more positive....it sounds like you found a really good-up front vet though..

Keep us updated...positive thoughts sent your way.....


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm so sorry =( He is in a great, loving home with you guys and he knows it. You will make the right choice for him and you've gone above and beyond for him and I think that is wonderful. Wish you guys the best.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry things didn't turn out as you had hoped. Jr. is a very lucky fellow to have you. I completely understand you wanting to know exactly what he has so that at least you know for sure there is nothing to be done for him before ... giving up... for lack of a better word. I know this is a dumb question, but is there no way to give him an ultrasound or something like that instead of aspirating the mass? I know fish are really small but they may have things like that available. Technology is so awesome these days.

Whatever happens, please know that I too am thinking good thoughts for you all and hope somehow Jr. can beat the odds!


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