# What's with all the inbreeding?



## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm fairly new the the world of betta breeding. One thing that has shocked me is all the inbreeding. I always see: 

"Oh, he's being sold with a sister! They're gonna make a great pair!"

"You'll have to breed on of the females back to their dad to get what you want."

In all other animals... this is not accepted. Inbreeding creates a plethora of issues. Not to mention it's just gross.

So, can somebody please tell me why inbreeding is an acceptable practice when it comes to bettas?


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

it cleans out the bad genes in a fish and strengthens the bad ones. its okay i didnt get it at first too. get used to it though it is a very common thing in the fish world!


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

How does it clean out the bad genes?

In all other animals inbreeding has terrible results. Sure, it may seem good for the short term but in the long term it creates a whole whack of issues. This is widely understood when it comes to breeding mammals. I want to know why people feel this does not apply to fish... and my sister, who is getting a phd in fish genetics, wants to know too. 

Genetic diversity strengthens the animal. Inbreeding does not.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

well you should not only breed a betta sibling pair for many generations. you should introduce new genetics into the line. most of the time when you are breeding bettas you are goin for one trait. say i am breeding a royal blue butterfly hm male to a turquoise female hm. i am aiming to breed towards a turquoise butterfly hm. then if i get a male and female out of that spawn with turquoise coloring with an even butterfly pattern then i would breed them to get even more that look like them. thats what i meant.


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

I think that's bad practice. I understand why it is done but I think it's lazy on the part of the breeder and weakens the species as a whole.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

i would ask indjo or oldfishlady about that. they are really good at genetics and that stuff and highy recommend them to clarify this.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

No offence but I fail to see why mernin's post was confusing, lol :/...considering your sister has or is getting PhD in the subject, you'd think she'd know about selective breeding.

Essentially bettas are bred for certain traits...There are 3 kinds of bettas that are bred (That I've seen around either aquabid or the internet): Show type, Consumer/hobbyist type, fighter type (although sad, it still exists).

For the show type, severe inbreeding is because you breed back all of the "good" traits of the fish, i.e. perfect finnage or colour. Since the breeder knows what they want in a fish, they selectively breed and re-breed fish with the ideal trait that they are looking for. Fighting types are bred for aggressiveness and/or agility and fighting habits. Hobbyist types are bred to be sellable to people like us...so pretty colours instead of perfect fins or other traits.

Theoretically, plakat bettas are bred as "fighters" due to their short, out-of-the-way fins.

As for the morals of doing this...simply: Money? Bragging rights? That's the more difficult question that would have multiple answers

I'm sure other "purebred" animals are also genetically weaker than mutts and mixes, but there are people in this world who would pay a pretty coin for a purebred dog if it were available, regardless of potential health issues.


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

Selective breeding is one thing. Inbreeding is a whole 'nother ball game, imo. Inbreeding and line breeding are two different things.

I understand why it's done but I'm amazed that people think this will create better fish in the long run. Horse people no longer do it (though they do line breed), cat people don't do it, even dog people are starting to see the light. Those German Shepards who can barely walk because their butts are so low to the ground? That's the direct result of inbreeding.

In today's society we know the dangers of breeding siblings and parents to siblings. So why do it? I guess, as you said, money is the main factor.

And my point, in asking her how, was that it is common knowledge that the negatives of line breeding far outweight the positives (at least from a genetics point, but perhaps not from a money point of view).


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

It's not so uncommon in fish breeding because many responsible breeders cull out any undesirable mutations or deformities that crop up, thus removing those individuals from the gene pool. 

Inbreeding and linebreeding are simply tools used by breeders to develop a consistent type or line. Yes you could use selective breeding, but it's much faster to simply breed sibling to sibling/ offspring back to parent to 'fix in' certain traits. Yes you will get some genetic defects showing up in certain individuals because of the doubling up of recessive genes, but these should either be culled or sold into pet homes and not kept on as breeding stock. 

I do agree outcrossing is important, and I believe someone said either on this forum or another, that you need to outcross once you reach the 6th or 7th generation of fish. However inbreeding and line breeding both have their role, and shouldn't be simply disregarded as a greedy grab for money.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@Super FIsh; I understand your concern about the negative effects on inbreeding. And I also agree that we humans always over manipulate and over exploit nature. But without inbreeding, betta's form would remain as they were; VT, long finned round tail, and round tail PK. 

Keep in mind that these are fish, not mammals, thus are more tolerant towards inbreeding. OK, so we have the traditional VT,RT,and PK which we breed extensively. Then one day a batch of fry mutated into a delta tail (F1). If we out breed to a traditional form, we will lose the mutation. So we breed siblings and get more delta tails (F2). Then cross cousins and further cross breed to either VT or RT and take the deltas and breed those to F2/F3. And so on until we get a dominant trait that will breed true.

We don't inbreed for ever. I think it has been confirmed that it is positively safe to inbreed for 6 generations, some say more. But I never go that far. I usually cross after F3, sometimes, if necessary F4. Believe me we avoid creating genetic defects. Take the DT for example, it is not advised to inbreed them or even breed DT to another DT because they will create genetically defected offspring.

Inbreeding is not advised amongst our local breeders. But it is often necessary to achieve our goals. We often can't avoid it to create new traits, both in form and color. And breeders often exchange their collection to out cross their own line.

I hope this answers your question - though we inbreed, yet we stay in the safe limits........ (sorry for the long post)


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you indjo, that was a very well written post.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You're welcome.

I'm glad you understood the post. I was afraid of over doing it and make it confusing.....


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## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

I agree that inbreeding in animals is bad, but for betta fish it is fine for about 4 generations, then you introduce new genes.


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

You say that it has been confirmed that inbreeding for 6 generations is "safe". Is this just through experience or have studies been done on this? I would love to read more on how fish differ from mammals in regards to inbreeding.


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

I doubt you will find anything but experience anywhere on this subject - the world simply doesn't care enough about bettas to do any actual studies.

What you have to keep in mind is that bettas are not mammals, therefore the same rules do not necessarily apply.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Correct, fish don't have to worry about mental issues like and extra chromosome, or some kind of other issue that us mammals do have to worry about. Bettas don't get Down Syndrome, but in the long term it can prove to be an issue. 
Like Injo said, they aren't bred with each other forever- and most breeders bring in new traits by the 4th or 5th generation.

Edit: I realize that DS isn't caused by inbreeding, but it was just an example...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

http://www.bettatalk.com/selecting_stock.htm


> Hum. (sorry)  I couldn't help but laughing my head off. OK you guys, let me set the records straight here once and for all. Breeding brother to sister is not only OK, but it is also desirable and most often absolutely necessary to get any kind of decent results. You can cross brother to sisters *up to 6 generations without ill effect*. Remember, they are fish, not people!!! . Anytime you outcross two different strains, you will usually suffer a major set back both in finnage and color purity and often lose the traits of the parents in the process. Although outcrossing is necessary now and then, you should only do it when absolutely necessary and otherwise it should be avoided, unless the breeder is trying to 'inject' additional traits into his/her line. In short, do purchase brother/sister pairs if at all possible.


I think I read it in 3 different writings. But I can only find this one.

I don't think there has been any scientific research on this topic. It's just sort of comparisons between breeders. I hold this (6 generation) opinion because a local breeder who inbreeds once said something similar; +/- "Don't go beyond 6 because it will destroy your line".


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

That is my understanding as well Indjo......and I think there are some scientific studies on this as well....a lot is also from pro breeders in this hobby and a great deal of this information can be found in the IBC archives/records...but you have to be a paying member to get access, however, lots of this information can still be found on the internet too...you just have to look for it....try google...scientific research Betta splendens


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

Hmm, just breeder experience doesn't do it for me, personally. Just because the fish has a pretty colour and nice fins doesn't mean it isn't being screwed up in some other way. But, perhaps you are right and I am looking at this from a mammalian stand point rather then a fish stand point.

Nor do I really trust random internet sites... I've been taught to only fully trust peer reviewed articles. I have access to a lot of scientific databases there, so I will start looking there.

Thanks everyone, it has been very interesting seeing the reasoning given. You've all been very helpful!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@Super Fish; could you please share with us what you find. I don't have access to many scientific articles I wish I could read.... Specially on genetics in general.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

While there may not be betta specific studies done on inbreeding I'm sure there are articles about the inbreeding of other species of fish.

As it is... I have yet to see studies saying that inbreeding is NOT okay in fish (as long as you outcross every 4-6 generations).

Oh.. and that whole "genetic diversity strengthens the animal" is only one half of the pie. A whole bunch of mixed genetics are nothing if they're bad genes.. you must have good genetics AND diversity and good genetics come from a selective breeding program that seeks out the good genes and tries to get rid of the bad oens.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I don't have much experience with biology, except taking high school Biology in 9th grade, but here's what I've gathered while researching breeding in bettas, mice, and dogs, as well as stumbling across some horror stories about inbreeding while surfing the net:

*Fish and most reptiles are pretty forgiving when it comes to inbreeding. I'm almost positive this is because their bodies and brains aren't as complex as mammals, so there's less things that could go wrong. Also, bettas are very hardy fish to start with, so the weaker traits that sometimes come with inbreeding aren't going to affect them as much. It is also more difficult to isolate desirable traits, so for the hard-core breeder, interbreeding is usually necessary.

*Rodents shouldn't be inbred, but it is possible to get sound offspring if there is some interbreeding. However, it is not something you want to risk.

*'Lower' mammals, such as dogs, cats, etc. should never be interbred. The risk of deformity is very high, and although it is possible to get an alright animal every now and then, the vast majority of offspring will be sickly, short-lived, etc.

*'Higher' mammals, such as humans and primates, will always have severely deformed and sickly offspring when interbred. Always.

Basically, the more complex the animal, the worse inbreeding will affect it.


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## GienahClarette (Jan 28, 2011)

freeflow246 said:


> *'Higher' mammals, such as humans and primates, will always have severely deformed and sickly offspring when interbred. Always.


I'm going to cite European royal families against this statement. Yes, there were problems such as hemophilia in later generations after carrier females (in F2 or F3) were eventually mated back to males with the disease. But, not all of them are deformed, and certainly not in the F1 generation. Deformities present themselves outside of inbreeding all of the time as well. 

Link 1

Link 2

I could name more, but I don't think I need to. =/


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## TheBlueBettaFish (Jun 30, 2011)

I wouldn't do it. Because in the human world if you do that the kid might have a difficulty. But now I see why...I just wouldn't do that to my fishies...


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## GienahClarette (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm not suggesting that you do it.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

GienahClarette said:


> I'm going to cite European royal families against this statement. Yes, there were problems such as hemophilia in later generations after carrier females (in F2 or F3) were eventually mated back to males with the disease. But, not all of them are deformed, and certainly not in the F1 generation. Deformities present themselves outside of inbreeding all of the time as well.
> 
> Link 1
> 
> ...


True enough.  I was thinking mostly about brother/sister pairs, since that's how bettas are usually inbred.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I have been spawning siblings, mother-son, father-daughter....etc.....and have not seen any abnormal amount of deformities or other genetic related issues with those crosses than spawning non-related fish...its not uncommon to get some genetic related problems that require culling from any spawn regardless of relation IME.......


Here are a few links.....

http://www.theokaa.org/articles/inbreeding.pdf
http://www.bluebettausa.com/genetics.htm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anthropomorphizing

"Anthropomorphizing

Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena."


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## Super Fish (Jun 27, 2011)

Concern about inbreeding has nothing to do with antormorphizing. I'm not saying "Oh, Pookums wouldn't want to breed to his sister, that's icky!" Rather, I'm saying "perhaps Pookums should not be bred to his sister because it's commonly accepted that inbreeding, at least in mammals, creates a plethora of issues."


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

"plethora" I love that word.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

And we've already established that in less evolved animals, namely fish, it is a non-issue as long as proper records are kept and out-crosses are made.

I believe the reason OFL brought up anthropomorphizing is that it seems to be the prevailing opinion of these members who seem to have little to no knowledge of fish breeding or genetics that since you shouldn't do it in humans that you shouldn't do it in fish and that's simply not the case.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

Here is a link to a nice article by the Fisheries and Aquaculture Department on inbreeding. 

Using Inbreeding To Improve Growth And Other Phenotypes


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