# 35 Males Living Together!!!



## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Forget sororities, look at this fraternity! I thought this was very interesting. I don't necessarily agree with the tank size:fish ratio or the fact that they are all male, but I thought this was very interesting!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVECoecwHsY


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I wonder how THAT turned out!
Yikes! And Angel fish too!


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## Kingcrimson (Sep 3, 2015)

Dang, a tank that sparsely planted could hardly handle a sorority. I'm sure that ended in bloodshed.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Ugh of course theyve got angelfish in there too...:roll:

It works because theres heaps in there to distribute aggression, but you can see the torn fins everywhere. Theres no way those fish are 100% confident in that tank, its so unnatural for them. They tolerate each other sure, but for how long. The shock of going from a small territory all by yourself to a big space stuffed with males and no defined territory is going to intimidate a lot of new males out of wanting to start fights...
There was one male in particular that I saw in the vid who just hung in one spot near the bottom and when he had to get air he swam as fast as he could, quickly got his air and bolted back down... he was quite keen to avoid annoying someone else

According to the owner


> They are just fish that humans have abused like pit bulls but they live just like they do in the wild. They don't want to fight.


My fish are nasty little things and would love nothing more than to get into another males tank to have a scrap... I guess I just abuse them too much

I wonder how many people are going to run down to petco and try this now...


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

trilobite said:


> Ugh of course theyve got angelfish in there too...:roll:
> 
> It works because theres heaps in there to distribute aggression, but you can see the torn fins everywhere. Theres no way those fish are 100% confident in that tank, its so unnatural for them. They tolerate each other sure, but for how long. The shock of going from a small territory all by yourself to a big space stuffed with males and no defined territory is going to intimidate a lot of new males out of wanting to start fights...
> There was one male in particular that I saw in the vid who just hung in one spot near the bottom and when he had to get air he swam as fast as he could, quickly got his air and bolted back down... he was quite keen to avoid annoying someone else
> ...


Ugh! I know right?
So they're abused when they spend a day or two in a "nasty bag", and when each have their own territory, like they actually do in the wild. 
What stupidity, they aren't humans in fishy bodies.
*Bangs head on desk*


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

"in the wild" he says, while putting the fish in an aquarium ._. 

It's a huge pet peeve of mine when people compare pets - animals that we have domesticated for many many many years - to their cousins living in the wild. You would be surprised at the amount of people that still compare dogs to wolves. They have different needs, they're adapted to different living conditions. Heck, they are literally different species now. Maybe those rice fields or stagnant rivers in Thailand don't have non-transparent dividers for each male. That's true. But it doesn't mean we can jam 35 males in one tank together and say "ha! Natural habitat!". *facepalm* maybe us humans should all strip naked and live in a cave up in the mountains too. Definitely would make us happy, huh?


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## Kay333 (Dec 23, 2014)

Besides the fact that angel fish are aggressive and male Bettas are aggressive and there was obvious fin issues with several of the fish in the video.... Isn't 36+ fish overstocking a 50g too? Canister filters aside that seems like a lot of bigger fish. And a diet of bloodworms and brine shrimp only isn't healthy, is it? I know feeding exclusively bloodworms is like only feeding your dog treats...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

On the next episode of animal hoarders....

"I FREED these fish from possible owners who might actually care for them by sticking them in a tank where the ratio is 1 fish:1 cup of water."

But seriously, those are some nice looking bettas that don't look sick and could easily have been bought within a week. They certainly don't look like the nearly dead fish that should be rescued.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

I watched another video of another person who did something similar. It showed more close-ups of multiple males in the same tank. The fish were clamped and had torn fins and scales. She had the whole "they live this way in the wild" excuse too and was acting like her fish was super peaceful. But she admitted in the comments or something that there was a huge turnover rate of the bettas. Some would die within weeks (if not from outright aggression and fighting, most likely from stress and stress-triggered illness). She thought it was just bad quality fish. And then she'll just toss them and replace them with more males from the stores.

EDIT: At least I think the majority of people who are ignorant/oblivious enough to try this and don't care enough to do the research, also would not spend money on multiple males. The fancy ones can be expensive these days. At least we can hope...


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

They so cost more per fish than say, tetras, so, hopefully cost will figure in.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I hate seeing these sorts of videos as I feel it just encourages others to try and emulate what has been shown. Based on what I saw, there looked to be torn fins on the majority of those males, and I noticed a few that were darting around looking rather stressed and like they were just trying to stay out of the way of the more dominant/aggressive males. 

Betta splendens are not a gregarious species of fish. Even my wild betta males (almost always fathers and sons or brothers that were never separated), don't want to spend all their time on top of each other. I don't know why some hobbyists feel the need to force these fish into close confines. Especially in a tank where there is nowhere for a subordinate fish to get away from an aggressor. I suppose they simply have to hope that the aggressor is distracted by one of the other males in the tank and loses interest. 

Sadly, 'successful stocking' for some hobbyists simply means that their fish aren't actively trying to kill each other. Personally, I like to set higher goals when I stock my tanks.


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## Pandorascaisse (Dec 31, 2015)

Seren27 said:


> "in the wild" he says, while putting the fish in an aquarium ._.
> 
> It's a huge pet peeve of mine when people compare pets - animals that we have domesticated for many many many years - to their cousins living in the wild. You would be surprised at the amount of people that still compare dogs to wolves. They have different needs, they're adapted to different living conditions. Heck, they are literally different species now. Maybe those rice fields or stagnant rivers in Thailand don't have non-transparent dividers for each male. That's true. But it doesn't mean we can jam 35 males in one tank together and say "ha! Natural habitat!". *facepalm* maybe us humans should all strip naked and live in a cave up in the mountains too. Definitely would make us happy, huh?


Dogs and wolves are not a different species. Dogs (Canis lupus familiaris) are a subspecies of wolf (Canis lupus). I hardly ever see people using Canis familiaris on its own, but it's not exactly correct. There are many types of dog (huskies, Czechoslovakian wolfdog, and the primitive breeds like Basenjis or Pharaoh hounds) that are still pretty wild. Sure, a shih tzu might be a far cry from a wolf, but they are a subspecies.

If they were different species, they would not be able to interbreed and create fertile offspring nearly 100% of the time. (Yes, I know there have been cases of fertile mules, but it's almost unheard of).

I think 35 is really out of whack. But I don't think sororities nor fraternities are necessarily going to fail with the wrong fish. Based on what I've read here, every betta has their own personality. Why would it be impossible for a set of extremely docile males (perhaps a father & his sons?) to live in such a big tank, provided it was heavily planted and with only compatible species + not overstocked? 

Saying we shouldn't compare animals to their wild ancestors is how we end up with cats living on diets that ruin their kidneys and barely keep them alive, how we end up with carnivores on vegetarian/vegan diets, how we end up with things like "small dog syndrome," etc. 

I don't have as much experience with bettas as most of you, but it's only logical that if every betta has their own personality, sororities and fraternities alike could work if someone was willing to do work and actually pay attention and separate until they had stock that could coexist. Why can't it work under the right conditions?

(I'm not saying these ARE the right conditions. But you all are acting like it could never work, 100%, no matter what.)


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

There are things we can consider possibilities on, and there are others that are simply yes or no. These are animals, not humans. They have instincts, not feelings. And thank you for the clarification. But dogs and wolves don't have the exact same needs, nor do tigers and cats. They have some overlap indeed but they are different. I know some people that work with Czech "wolf dogs". They're dogs. It's something I hear on a daily basis working with Northern breeds and I'm getting real tired of it. They're dogs. Period.


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## Pandorascaisse (Dec 31, 2015)

Seren27 said:


> There are things we can consider possibilities on, and there are others that are simply yes or no. These are animals, not humans. They have instincts, not feelings. And thank you for the clarification. But dogs and wolves don't have the exact same needs, nor do tigers and cats. They have some overlap indeed but they are different. I know some people that work with Czech "wolf dogs". They're dogs. It's something I hear on a daily basis working with Northern breeds and I'm getting real tired of it. They're dogs. Period.


Czechoslovakian wolfdogs are actually, at least in part, wolf. 

"In the year 1955 a biological experiment took place in the CSSR of that time, namely, the crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian Wolf."
This is taken DIRECTLY from AKC's website. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are much closer to wolves than other dogs.

No where in my original post did I say that northern breeds were wolves. However, they ARE much closer to wolves than other breeds, such as toy breeds like the shih tzu. That is exactly what I said. I'm sorry if you're getting tired of hearing of the comparison, but saying that northern breeds such as Malamutes more closely resemble wolves than toy breeds such as Chihuahuas is not untrue nor an unfair comparison to make. 

Their needs have not changed as much as you were implying, which is all I was saying. 

The reason that a tiger's needs and a cat's needs are so different is because small wild cats and big wild cats occupy entirely different genera. That's like saying dogs can't resemble wolves because they don't resemble foxes. The closest cats are related to tigers is at Felidae, similarly to how the closest dogs and wolves are to foxes, jackals, coyotes (BARRING eastern coyotes as they are a coyote wolf hybrid), etc. is Canidae. 

House cats come from the genus Felis, and if you look at the other animals within their genus (all wild animals!), I think you'll find they very closely resemble them in both needs and behavior. A lot of zoos that house certain species of cat related closely to F. catus claim that their visitors always ask what a cat's doing in a zoo, haha. Of course they don't resemble tigers, because they're not very closely related


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Ok this is getting very off topic. I'll shut up now before things get ugly. Point is: you cannot have a Betta fraternity. Reasons why are stated multiple times in many people's replies. You don't need to drag out every little thing I say all over the place. I have access to the AKC website too. Do you have anything to add about the matter in hand?


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## Shiverdam (May 4, 2012)

I'm gonna barf.
This person says several times how "beautiful" and "gorgeous" her fish are. All she cares about is how they look, and getting as many as possible. Like a bag of marbles, she's just collecting them.


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## nixie (Nov 21, 2013)

How? Thats just awesome


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

This thread is getting way off topic ...lets get back to Bettas. The way I feel about this is that we can't control what is posted on you tube so why carry on so about it :frustrated: 

If this thread does get nasty or ugly it will be shut down .


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## Pandorascaisse (Dec 31, 2015)

Seren27 said:


> Ok this is getting very off topic. I'll shut up now before things get ugly. Point is: you cannot have a Betta fraternity. Reasons why are stated multiple times in many people's replies. You don't need to drag out every little thing I say all over the place. I have access to the AKC website too. Do you have anything to add about the matter in hand?


My question was why CAN'T this work with the right fish? All of the reasons given are that, in general, betta fish are aggressive. I understand that.

I'm asking if there's any repercussions aside from aggression that would make this not possible with the right fish, right tank, etc.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I would think that the only way to do this would be to breed several generations of non aggressive Bettas, choosing the least aggressive of each generation to breed, and so on, until you have a line of completely docile bettas to choose from. To me, that would be unethical because you would be changing the basic temperament of bettas, they wouldn't act like bettas. This could bring on a host of other changes to the Betta, such as unwillingness to breed. They're beautiful fish, but part of what makes them so engaging is their basic aggressive/inquisitive temperaments. They would be dull and boring. 
Also, breeding for domesticity brings unforeseen changes in conformation and coloring.
For example, cattle are a man made version of there ancient species Aurox, in breeding for domestic purposes changed the Aurox into cows. And there is the Fenneck Fox, which came about as an experiment to breed pet foxes. The most domesticated ones were bred and the breeders started noticing white markings, which no truly wild species of Fox manifests. It also, inadvertently brought changes to their shape and size. Now fennec Fox now looks more like a large Pomeranian than any true Fox. 
When one breeds away from a species basic genetic makeup it changes the species almost beyond recognition. 
In other words, they wouldn't be bettas. 
So why not just get a tank full 
of guppies?


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## torileeann11 (Dec 17, 2015)

that hurt to watch...


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## DZIM (Oct 20, 2015)

That video was the worst thing I've ever seen. Those fish are living in perpetual terror. Cruel.


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## torileeann11 (Dec 17, 2015)

The OP of the video apparently couldn't take the internet shaming they were receiving. This video has thankfully been removed.


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## Shiverdam (May 4, 2012)

I hope that the deletion of the video means that she realized how stupid the setup is. One can only hope.


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## Crash (Jul 19, 2015)

I'm kind of glad it was taken down, I was getting anxiety just from the description...


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## shinigamiofspace (Dec 1, 2015)

People probably WILL run out and try this now. Unfortunately, a lot of people really don't know what they are doing with bettas. They keep their water in the wrong temperature range first of all, don't keep with up the water quality, and generally neglect the fish. Just because they come into contact with each other in the wild doesn't mean you have to attempt to simulate their natural environment. First of all it's not natural. Secondly in the wild they are territorial and the looser of the battle can escape to safety if he so wishes. In a controlled environment like a tank the looser has no where to hide. It puts unnecessary stress on all the fish.


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