# Cycling - Blackwater and allowing the tank to mature



## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I am not if this is the right forum, but I have some cycling questions. I have read everything I can get hands on, so I am familiar with how to cycle the tank.

I have run across a couple of sites (of course I didn't save them) that introduced the concept of using IAL or an IAL source as a part of the tank cycle. Has anyone tried this? Aside from the PH drop it will contribute to during the cycle which I will have to watch closely, is there any benefit to adding the IAL during a cycle?

Second... allowing the tank to mature after the initial cycle is complete. As I understand it now, the initial cycle is more about establishing the bacteria in the filter bio-media. Nothing has happened as of yet in the substrate to allow for the growth of bacteria that break down organic compounds that fall to the bottom (producing ammonia as I am sure you all know).

So, does maturing the tank refer to some extended process where these bacteria are grown out by some extra steps to allow for their establishment prior to putting fish / shrimp in the tank? It was suggested to me in a shrimp forum, but how to do it was unclear.. I am guessing that the pure amonia source is cut off and a new element is introduced, say spreading food across the substrate for a period of time. But that's a guess, though it does make sense as that sort of thing is what will get that bacteria going.

Appreciate any assistance and clarification you can provide here. Thanks.


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## carefreesparrow (Mar 24, 2014)

I could be wrong, but from my research maturing a tank refers mostly to having those beneficial bacteria colonized a bit better, mostly in the substrate... ( making that substrate quite beneficial in the development in other tanks as the bacteria bonds itself to the substrate and can expedite the cycle process on another new tank) I am looking at a product ' nutrafin cycle" supposedly instantly provided befaficial bacteria+ controls ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. See thread nutrafin "cycle"


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

carefreesparrow said:


> I could be wrong, but from my research maturing a tank refers mostly to having those beneficial bacteria colonized a bit better, mostly in the substrate... ( making that substrate quite beneficial in the development in other tanks as the bacteria bonds itself to the substrate and can expedite the cycle process on another new tank) I am looking at a product ' nutrafin cycle" supposedly instantly provided befaficial bacteria+ controls ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. See thread nutrafin "cycle"


In talking with a couple of folks, maturing a tank is far simpler than I thought. It is simply allowing the tank to run undisturbed for a period of time after it has cycled. More important for shrimp than fish as a fish doesn't require bio-film / algae for food. The substrate itself will begin to mature from the organic compounds and waste produced by the fish. That part takes time.

As for using IAL in cycling, also learned it is a bad idea. As I understand it, during cycling, if the PH drops too low, the process will slow down at best and stall altogether at worst. IAL will want to lower the PH so including them would be a mistake as the PH will drop anyway as a result of the processes going on. I also can't find anything that explains why you would want to use it while cycling anyway as it adds nothing to the growth of the necessary bacteria anyway.

Lots of products for kick-starting the cycling process. Nutrafin is one option, but I don't really trust a product that says it is instantaneous simply because it takes time for the proper bacteria to develop in the bio-media in the filter. An ammonia source of some kind is needed for the bacteria to take root and grow. That's true for any bacteria product. They can speed things up by seeding it, but I just don't see how it could be an overnight process. Moving existing bio-media from an existing tank into the new tank / tank filter would be more effective in speeding things up, but even that has it's limitations simply because there is no guarantee that the conditions in the new tank match those of the original tank it cam from.

Seachem Stability and MicroBacter7 are also options here. They are meant to be introduced into the filter water column to seed the bio-media. They take time to establish and won't do a thing without an ammonia source for them to work on first. 

There are some products for seeding shrimp tanks that include both seeding the bio-media as well as establishing bacteria in the substrate. They can also be used in a fish tank which I plan to do. These, too, take time


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## carefreesparrow (Mar 24, 2014)

Interesting, my tank is exactly2 weeks old, I've got some ornaments/substrate from an established tank and have had ghost shrimp in there for 1 week now. Seem to be doing really well.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Accurate as to IAL lowering the pH. Not enough to stop the cycle. Maybe slow it a little.

Accurate as to how a tank gets "established," by optimizing the distribution of the bacteria. No special steps need be taken. It just happens in a filtered, inhabited tank.

Accurate as to "seeding" live bacteria into a tank to help start the cycle.

However, none of the products mentioned so far on this thread contain the live bacteria that actually performs the nitrogen cycle. All these products do is reduce ammonia, decompose waste, unclog filters and help establish the biofilm that the nitrifying bacteria live in. Unless you get nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria in there, the tank will never cycle.

These bacteria are in the moisture in the atmosphere and every film of water, non-chlorinated puddle, lake, river and ocean in the world. Most of the time spent on cycling is waiting for the right bacteria to literally fall out of the sky. 

Or you can buy bottled products which contain those unique bacteria, such as:

--Tetra Safestart
--API Quickstart
--ATM Colony
--MicrobeLift NiteOut II
--Dr, Tim's One-and-Only
--There are a few others

These products have been known to cycle a FW tank in from 4 to 14 days. Because they are "live" bacteria, freezing or>90* temperatures can kill them. Sitting on the shelf for more than 6-months can diminish their effectiveness.

Ammonia is used in a _fishless_ cycle. It is important to have high ammonia- oxidizing capacity (>3.0ppm/day) if you're building a community tank with schools of fish introduced at once. 

For one Betta in a 5g tank and up. A fish-in cycle is hands down the simplest method. Add bottled _live_ bacteria or _seed_ if you're in a hurry. But, in the long run, you'll only be saving a dozen or so water changes ... no big deal.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I wasn't specific about the cycling method. Thanks for that, but in the end, an ammonia source is an ammonia source whether it be from a fish, a piece of food, the substrate or something else. It all performs the same function in the tank cycling process. I prefer the cycling with nothing but plants in the tank, but that's just me. It all works 

Though it does not mention the specific bacteria you named above, Microbacter7 does establish both nitrifying and de-nitrifying bacteria in the bio-media of the filter as well as add many of the other bacteria types needed for breaking down organics and such. I have read, though, read about the other products you mentioned. I might give Dr. Tim's a go just to be safe. Thanks for the tip.

I think you are right about Stability. Couldn't find any reference to establishing bacteria in the bio-filter at all.

As far as bacteria, it is a new game for me, as I have only just begun reading about them. Anything in that arena is always helpful to me. Here's a link to an article about bacteria in the aquarium and the nitrogen cycle which I found particularly helpful:

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/member-submitted-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-74891/

One of a couple of things I've read about nitrifying bacteria and lower PH levels. Hope it helps.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Hallyx said:


> Accurate as to IAL lowering the pH. Not enough to stop the cycle. Maybe slow it a little.


This is certainly misleading, especially in a fishless cycle with softwater. In cases where the KH is normally low it will quickly be used up by the bacteria resulting in a pH drop that will stall a cycle until corrections are made. Since IAL does lower pH it therefore stands to reason that the process would be stalled even quicker. Unless you mean stalled instead of simply slowed.



Hallyx said:


> For one Betta in a 5g tank and up. A fish-in cycle is hands down the simplest method. Add bottled _live_ bacteria or _seed_ if you're in a hurry. But, in the long run, you'll only be saving a dozen or so water changes ... no big deal.


I find this statement to be somewhat troubling. A fish-in cycle requires testing and water changes every day. A fishless cycle also requires daily testing, but not water changes so how is it not simpler? Using plants could also be considered simpler, depending on how well it goes.

I always hear about how Betta are waterpuppies and cared for better than other tropical fish and yet the suggestion is a fish-in cycle which can be stressful both to fish and keeper? Fish-in cycling is possible obviously, but it is not something I would ever advise keepers to do, not when there are fishless and silent cycling methods. You miss a day's water change in a fish-in cycle because of unforeseen circumstances and your fish is the one to suffer.


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## carefreesparrow (Mar 24, 2014)

I agree that a fish in cycle is not the best for the fish, its the whoops I bought a tank, read the manufacturers recommendations and now have fish in an uncycled tank routine.  I'm guilty of that. It would be easier to cycle a tank fishless... Maybe a little more tedious and hard to explain to guests as they ask what's in your tank and you start getting into ammonia consuming bacteria cultures and whatnot lol. Is say that a fish in cycle is probably the most common method and people should be made more aware of the dangers of that method priorto purchasing their fish.... Er even when purchasing their tank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I suppose a 14 day return policy on dead fish is just as easy for major pet store chains
_Posted via Mobile Device_

that being said, i am returning my "cycle" product and will not have a problem keeping up with my testing and water changes through the cycle. easy enough ")


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

carefreesparrow said:


> that being said, i am returning my "cycle" product and will not have a problem keeping up with my testing and water changes through the cycle. easy enough ")


There is nothing wrong with using a products that will move the cycle along more quickly. All they are doing is adding bacteria to the system that would otherwise take alot of time to develop on their own. It isn't the bacteria that harms the fish in the aquarium while the cycle is underway. It is the build up of ammonia, and then nitrites, in the system that occurs when nitrifyning and de-nitrifying bacteria that break them down have not yet established themselves in the filter, that harms the fish.

Keep in mind, as has been noted above, that once introducing bacteria into the system, they will do nothing until an ammonia source has been introduced, thus beginning the cycle. Whether the ammonia source has been added immediately or two weeks down the road makes no difference. The cycle won't begin without the ammonia source. 

Using a fish in the aquarium as the ammonia source is one way to do it, but it is the least recommended because of the stress placed on the fish by the initial ammonia spike followed by the initial nitrite spike. It's a given that this will occur as the bacteria needed to break them down have not yet established themselves. Another reason I personally do not use this method is that once the cycle is complete, the system is balanced only to the amount of waste produced by this single fish. Each additional resident added to the aquarium will cause another ammonia and nitrite spike as the bacteria must grow to re-establish the balance.

There are some very good instructions and threads in this forum that outline cycling the tank and various methods to do it. This is a very good place to begin.

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=99450

Hope this helps


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

BWG said:


> I find this statement to be somewhat troubling. A fish-in cycle requires testing and water changes every day. A fishless cycle also requires daily testing, but not water changes so how is it not simpler? Using plants could also be considered simpler, depending on how well it goes.
> 
> 
> 
> I always hear about how Betta are waterpuppies and cared for better than other tropical fish and yet the suggestion is a fish-in cycle which can be stressful both to fish and keeper? Fish-in cycling is possible obviously, but it is not something I would ever advise keepers to do, not when there are fishless and silent cycling methods. You miss a day's water change in a fish-in cycle because of unforeseen circumstances and your fish is the one to suffer.



A betta in a 5 gallon tank doesn't require daily water changes. Frequent yes, but not daily. If one were to follow a filter less water change schedule on a new, filtered tank, it would cycle (provided they aren't doing the "100%" thing). That's how many of the betta people start anyway - sans filter.

Doesn't REALLY require testing if one were to just stick to a routine. It's pretty easy to do water changes on 5 gallon tanks, so one could change out 3-4 gallons of water one day and dose with prime the next (quite possibly the next few days) and then change out 3-4 gallons again and repeat this over and over.

Too, with the use of cycling aids like TSS, you are not exposing the fish to the full cycling process.

I think it's simpler for the target audience to do a fish in cycle, especially when they've already bought the fish and then come here asking for help.

Is it a method that I would ever use? No, because I can clone a tank and completely bypass the whole process. Is it a method I would suggest for someone wanting to stock a community tank? No, fishless is the way to go with that, between the two. For many it's far more taxing to do frequent water changes on larger tanks - definitely more time consuming. And I think many people who do a fish in cycle with a community tank may have a proportionally higher bioload, making it more of an ordeal on the fish.


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## carefreesparrow (Mar 24, 2014)

My ten gallon tank is exactly 3 weeks old, had no idea of the cycle and had my betta housed in it after the first 24 hours of setup.. still no idea I had added 7 neon tetras and 3 ghost shrimp a week later, any guesses as to what happened lol. I know now a) what I should have done. And directions for a fishless cycle are easy enough to find.. when you are looking for them. But I hate it when people try giving a proactive solution to a clearly reactive problem. The uninformed would say return the fish. The informed would suggest a proper way to cycle fish in. I clearly added way to much at once and i potentially could have set up a small qt tank to home the majority and reintroduced the fish at a bit more of a slower pace. All the while monitoring the ammonia levels and changing the water as needed. The quick cycle could have helped but it seems more like a bandaid fix as opposed to the proper/ time consuming method in letting the bacteria form naturally, better yet aided with the filter media/ substrate from an established tank. Please tell me if I'm wrpng


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

carefreesparrow said:


> My ten gallon tank is exactly 3 weeks old, had no idea of the cycle and had my betta housed in it after the first 24 hours of setup.. still no idea I had added 7 neon tetras and 3 ghost shrimp a week later, any guesses as to what happened lol. I know now a) what I should have done. And directions for a fishless cycle are easy enough to find.. when you are looking for them. But I hate it when people try giving a proactive solution to a clearly reactive problem. The uninformed would say return the fish. The informed would suggest a proper way to cycle fish in. I clearly added way to much at once and i potentially could have set up a small qt tank to home the majority and reintroduced the fish at a bit more of a slower pace. All the while monitoring the ammonia levels and changing the water as needed. The quick cycle could have helped but it seems more like a bandaid fix as opposed to the proper/ time consuming method in letting the bacteria form naturally, better yet aided with the filter media/ substrate from an established tank. Please tell me if I'm wrpng


You have a good point. Didn't think about offering a solution to your dilema. Sorry about that.

Taking bits and pieces from what's been said, if you still have the fish in the aquarium, then just leave them there and be sure to monitor your amonia, nitrates and nitrates. If you still have your bacteria additive, continue using it as instructed making certain to inject into the water column in your filter. Be careful how much you feed the fish as any extra stuff left in the tank will be broken down and converted to ammonia. Then, let nature take its course.

I would like to be able to tell you to change the water if the ammonia gets above X ppm, nitrites above X ppm, but I am not that familiar with the fish in cycle. Info is probably out there about that. But I can say, when you monitor your levels while the cycle is in progress, water changes will be absolutely necessary for you to keep levels below a certain point and to stabilize your PH back to prevent the cycle from stalling. B3e certain that the water you are putting back into the aquarium matches the parameters in the aquarium as closely as you can... Temp and PH in particular should be very close. If they aren't, then more stress will be placed on the tanks' inhabitants on top of what is already there.

It will probably take a while, but eventually, you will see ammonia and nitrite levels to drop to zero within a 24 hour period. When that happens
,your cycle is complete, your fish will be feeling alot better, and all should be well. Some of your fish may die along the way, which I hope doesn't happen. Just keep up the routine, check your levels, do your water changes ensuring PH and Temp are the same in the replacement water as in the tank, and hope for the best. At this point, that's all you can.

Hope that helps


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

jaysee said:


> A betta in a 5 gallon tank doesn't require daily water changes. Frequent yes, but not daily. If one were to follow a filter less water change schedule on a new, filtered tank, it would cycle (provided they aren't doing the "100%" thing). That's how many of the betta people start anyway - sans filter.
> 
> Doesn't REALLY require testing if one were to just stick to a routine. It's pretty easy to do water changes on 5 gallon tanks, so one could change out 3-4 gallons of water one day and dose with prime the next (quite possibly the next few days) and then change out 3-4 gallons again and repeat this over and over.
> 
> ...


You're making an assumption that the new Betta owner (who you seem to be saying is incapable of weighing pros and cons when given them) feeds high quality foods that produce less waste and knows how often to feed and in what amount. How else would you be able to determine the amount of waste? New keepers are new keepers. the majority don't know and that's ok. That's what the forum is here for.

The nontest method is all well and good, but what does it teach? Yes you can save the fish, which is the goal, but again what does it teach? Cycling is Fishkeeping 101 and to hand out a schedule does no one any good in the long wrong. It's the whole teach a man to fish thing...seems appropriate 

Bottled bacteria are all well and good. They come with caveats though. How do I know the truck that delivered straight from the factory didn't get too hot or cold? So I wasted all that money? Don't get me wrong, plants and seeding material also have there pros and cons. My real question is why are they not also presented as options with the keeper allowed to chose which they think is best FOR THEM?

Doing a a fish-in cycle is not simpler, as I have stated before. Nor is a basic fish-in cycle the only recourse. Again you have the options of straight fish-in or with the nuances of bottled bacteria/seeded material/plants.

Who is the "target audience" you speak of? Bettaforum as a whole or 
rpadgett37? rpadgett37 seems to me to have a pretty clear idea on cycling. If it's the entirety of BF, well that's pretty condescending.



carefreesparrow said:


> My ten gallon tank is exactly 3 weeks old, had no idea of the cycle and had my betta housed in it after the first 24 hours of setup.. still no idea I had added 7 neon tetras and 3 ghost shrimp a week later, any guesses as to what happened lol. I know now a) what I should have done. And directions for a fishless cycle are easy enough to find.. when you are looking for them. But I hate it when people try giving a proactive solution to a clearly reactive problem. The uninformed would say return the fish. The informed would suggest a proper way to cycle fish in. I clearly added way to much at once and i potentially could have set up a small qt tank to home the majority and reintroduced the fish at a bit more of a slower pace. All the while monitoring the ammonia levels and changing the water as needed. The quick cycle could have helped but it seems more like a bandaid fix as opposed to the proper/ time consuming method in letting the bacteria form naturally, better yet aided with the filter media/ substrate from an established tank. Please tell me if I'm wrpng


Please don't feel bad. I think the majority of people have the same thing happen (shh but when I was a kid my dad told me the water from other tanks was what you needed :/ ) Since the majority of people have a problem with new tank syndrome like you did it's best in my opinion to explain to them what happened (you seem to know) and what they options are as well as the up and downsides of each option. Let the person chose and then help them through the process. I personally only ever recommend taking fish back if they are not suitable for the tank size. The bottled bacteria aren't really a band-aid. They will work (most times) and be just as good as taking time. They are just one option though and seemingly the only one some people wish to suggest. You are a prime example though of why I don't think it's a good idea to just willy-nilly hand out a schedule. Not all new Betta keepers stop at just a Betta.

PS-If you have a thread, send me a link or shoot my a PM. I feel bad enough for derailing this thread as it is.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Target audience I think are those that are upgrading from one of those tiny containers to a larger tank like a 5 gallon. I think waiting for a 5 gallon to cycle while the fish lives in an uncycled 1.25 gallon doesn't make much sense. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people do this.


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## carefreesparrow (Mar 24, 2014)

BWG said:


> You're making an assumption that the new Betta owner (who you seem to be saying is incapable of weighing pros and cons when given them) feeds high quality foods that produce less waste and knows how often to feed and in what amount. How else would you be able to determine the amount of waste? New keepers are new keepers. the majority don't know and that's ok. That's what the forum is here for.
> 
> The nontest method is all well and good, but what does it teach? Yes you can save the fish, which is the goal, but again what does it teach? Cycling is Fishkeeping 101 and to hand out a schedule does no one any good in the long wrong. It's the whole teach a man to fish thing...seems appropriate
> 
> ...


. Lol, I really don't mean to come off in an offensive tone. I've learned so much from this forum and everybody on it has helped me tremendously in decisions I have made... And I do realize a standardized schedule would have far too many linear and chaotic variables to ever be practical. However the ground floor knowledge of these poisons and bacteria could be at least cautioned prior to purchase or assembly of your tank


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I'm talking about Prime and other ammonia-lockers like Stresscoat, Ammolock, Amguard and others. Seachem conservatively estimates 2-drops/gal Prime will lock-up >1.0ppm ammonia for >24 hours. Estimating the average Betta will produce from 0.10ppm to 0.25ppm/gal/day (depending on size, activity, food amount and quality, and pH), a keeper can safely cycle a 5g tank fish-in with twice- weekly 50% pwc's..._.without testing the water_. 

For many new people a $23 API test kit is a deal-breaker; a 5g tank with heater, filter, plants, lighting is barely-affordable. Should we tell these people that they shouldn't keep a Betta?

MY first priority is to help them keep their fish alive as cheaply as possible until they can get the experience and funds necessary to enjoy the hobby on a higher level. 
Performing a fishless cycle with it's dosing and testing requirements is not as simple as just doing water changes, which the new keeper is encouraged to do, anyway. One of the most common complaints I hear is, "Why is everything so complicated? I don't know what to do next."

Decisions made in ignorance by members who have not yet learned the basics are what I try to avoid by advocating a more by-the-numbers approach. "Do it this way, take one step after the other, read, learn, watch your fish closely. When you know more about it, you can make an educated decision as to what you should do next," is the message I try to send.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I assume you already know that Stresscoat, Ammolock, and Amguard do_ not_ neutralize nitrites. I can show you the comparison chart if you wish.
I'd rather see a frugal new Betta owner invest in a test kit, than to purchase bottled bacteria that may end up costing more. You should certainly price shop for test kits more often, they are often put on sale in the $15 range.

Last time I checked Betta splendens was in the genus Osphronemidae in the order Perciformes. They're real fish, and their keepers are real fishkeepers! 

The ammonia cycle is not that hard. There are many ways to skin a cat! Cycling is Fishkeeping 101, doing a a fish-in cycle is not simpler, nor is a basic fish-in cycle the only recourse. 
Bottled bacteria are all well and good. They come with caveats though. How do I know the truck that delivered straight from the factory didn't get too hot or cold? So I wasted all that money? 

Don't get me wrong, plants and seeding material also have their pros and cons, but there are many low light plants and floaters that can be grown with stock lighting or a desk lamp that won't even require fertilization. 
My real question is why are they not also presented as options with the keeper allowed to chose which they think is best _FOR THEM?_


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

BWG said:


> I assume you already know that Stresscoat, Ammolock, and Amguard do_ not_ neutralize nitrites. I can show you the comparison chart if you wish.
> I'd rather see a frugal new Betta owner invest in a test kit, than to purchase bottled bacteria that may end up costing more. You should certainly price shop for test kits more often, they are often put on sale in the $15 range.


I'm sure Hal is aware of the Nitrite bit as well since he was talking about ammonia not nitrite but you do bring up a good point.

I just wanted to pop in and say that while it's fantastic to find deals online and get thing shipped, you also have to take into account the age group of the Betta Fish forum, many of our members are younger than 18 which means they most likely do not have access to credit cards and more than half I know, are not supported by their parents which means they have to buy from the store. 23$ is often the sale price of the API testing kit in store, I regard myself as lucky to be able to purchase online when others cannot.

The worst things we can do as more experienced members is to assume, I'm only speaking from the last few posts on this page (2nd page) as I haven't read the entire thing. It concerns me that people assume so much and while I know I'm guilty as well, we should ask what the new member knows so that we can build up the knowledge from there. This would prevent more threads like these and issues, granted it doesn't solve everything but it's a start for a more peaceful community. So just my piece of advice next time you want to help someone; _don't speak so much generalized but ask them what they know and build up from there, people don't like to be treated as a number. Be courteous to new fish keepers, as often this is frustrating to learn there is more than just the weekly water change and feed every other day as larger chain stores tell them._ I like Hal's thing about older members thinking like a total newb to help out!

Just my two cents, take it as you will.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

For what it's worth, I've cycled 2 tanks with Stability in about a week. It does work. I just started fishless cycling my 55 gallon with TSS, so I'll have a comparison between the two.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

givemethatfish said:


> For what it's worth, I've cycled 2 tanks with Stability in about a week. It does work. I just started fishless cycling my 55 gallon with TSS, so I'll have a comparison between the two.


That's something else, not all bacteria supplements are created equal as I just saying on another thread!

Stability helps the cycle along while TSS actually contains the bacteria necessary to kick-start the colony! Nitrosonomas, and Nitrospira are the two main bacteria that you really want.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

I swear I don't work for Seachem, lol. But Stability does contain bacteria. It does contain different types of bacteria than TSS, but there's more than one species of bacteria that can facilitate the cycle. I would assume they use different bacterial species in Stability because they were trying to find useful bacteria that could exist for a long time in spore form. They're different, but hardier, species. I can't attest as to whether they are better or worse bacteria at what they're supposed to do, but I have had success with it. 

I'm always pleased when I read that multiple products by different companies can work. It makes it easier on that person (who I was not that long ago) who just walks into the store and buys what the dude behind the counter tells them to. The more products that work as they're supposed to, the more likely New Fishkeeper is to be successful.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

givemethatfish said:


> I swear I don't work for Seachem, lol. But Stability does contain bacteria. It does contain different types of bacteria than TSS, but there's more than one species of bacteria that can facilitate the cycle. I would assume they use different bacterial species in Stability because they were trying to find useful bacteria that could exist for a long time in spore form. They're different, but hardier, species. I can't attest as to whether they are better or worse bacteria at what they're supposed to do, but I have had success with it.
> 
> I'm always pleased when I read that multiple products by different companies can work. It makes it easier on that person (who I was not that long ago) who just walks into the store and buys what the dude behind the counter tells them to. The more products that work as they're supposed to, the more likely New Fishkeeper is to be successful.


Oh, I know they still contain the bacteria, I'm just informing of which bacteria actually convert ammonia into nitrite into nitrate is all. I didn't say that other bacterial supplements wouldn't work, it's just that TSS is generally more effective (other than seeded material and Dr. Tim's One and Only) than other supplements because it contains those bacteria which do convert ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Hallyx said:


> Welcome to the 21st Century where the marvels of modern chemistry can take the sting out of fish-in cycling.
> 
> I'm talking about Prime and other ammonia-lockers like Stresscoat, Ammolock, Amguard and others. Seachem conservatively estimates 2-drops/gal Prime will lock-up >1.0ppm ammonia for >24 hours. Estimating the average Betta will produce from 0.10ppm to 0.25ppm/gal/day (depending on size, activity, food amount and quality, and pH), a keeper can safely cycle a 5g tank fish-in with twice- weekly 50% pwc's..._.without testing the water_.
> 
> ...


+1

You've raised some very valid points here, which I hadn't really thought about.

I have learned quite a bit over these past months from asking questions, from lots of reading, and direct experience. My intention has always been to share that experience with others on the forum who need help.

BUT, what I had forgotten were the days of my own excessive frustration when first learning about Bettas and cycling and other things. What I read and heard was way above my head and I became frustrated enough to nearly give the hobby up altogether. I just wanted to keep a fish and didn't want to spend alot of money to do it (which at the time I didn't have any to spare anyway). It always seemed like one thing after another, one extra piece of information that changed everything time and again, were conspiring against me making the hobby always seem just out of reach.

I haven't really taken into consideration where the person I am trying to help, either in terms of resources or experience, who just wants to keep and enjoy a betta. I am guilty of not standing in the shoes of the person I am speaking with and trying to help. Though I have never meant to talk down to anyone, I expect I may have come off just that way. I certainly do not consider myself an expert by far. This is always a learning game, but I do know that the things I want to know about and learn now are far along in the hobby from where I began. I need to remember that.

I am happy to read this and I'll keep this in mind with my future posts. Thank You hallyx


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

lilnaugrim said:


> I'm sure Hal is aware of the Nitrite bit as well since he was talking about ammonia not nitrite but you do bring up a good point.
> 
> I just wanted to pop in and say that while it's fantastic to find deals online and get thing shipped, you also have to take into account the age group of the Betta Fish forum, many of our members are younger than 18 which means they most likely do not have access to credit cards and more than half I know, are not supported by their parents which means they have to buy from the store. 23$ is often the sale price of the API testing kit in store, I regard myself as lucky to be able to purchase online when others cannot.
> 
> ...


That's a fair point about being only able to buy a test kit locally. It should be noted though that many stores will test water for free. I'm not sure about Walmart, but other places don't ask where you bought your fish. 

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't keep a fish if they don't have a test kit. I just think it should be recommended that they save and buy one as soon as they can. When a fish gets sick and someone posts on here, what's one of the first things always asked...can you give us your readings. An experienced keeper is much more likely to know when there is a problem without using a test, but even they often have them. To me a test kit is a necessary additional cost akin to vet bills for a dog or cat. Yeah they'll live without checkups, but given how much we love them it sure would be nice to do all we can.

I'm not sure why you directed the rest to me to be honest, as that is what I have been trying to say from the start. Believe me when I say I know just how a newbie feels. I don't have to imagine it as my restart in the hobby has been recent enough. BTW, since I am helping on a thread that you are as well on TFK I know you practice what you preach. I've seen you give multiple suggestions and allow the user to chose while also teaching.

I'm sorry to keep harking on this, but I'm a bit mystified why ammonia<nitrites<nitrates<water change (or something to that) effect is harder to remember than Nitrosonomas and Nitrospira. You're talking to a guy that loves scientific names too and even I often have to look them up.

New Betta keepers are frugal...let's go with that for a second. They are also kind and caring. So has anyone thought about organizing a long running RAOK to gift plants to new fish keepers who would hopefully in turn pay it forward as well? Even if the cost of shipping was paid it would be less than a bottle of bacteria. This would also help to further strengthen the community. Again I don't think bottled bacteria is a bad idea, I just don't think it is all there is. You can be frugal and still have options.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I'll be happy to ROAK plants when I have enough of them. Frogbit grows out pretty quickly so it won't be long before I can send some out. Same goes with Java Moss though that will take a bit longer for me given my very small current amount. The good news on moss is that all mosses perform a similar function. Moss balls are readily available at your LFS (Petco and Petsmart have them). They are inexpensive.

With these plants, though, it is important to note they will not add bacteria to the system; rather, they will help the cycle along becoming a part of the tank's bio-filtration system by assisting in absorbing ammonia and nitrites in the water (particularly nitrites for these guys). Having said that, they are still a very good, cheap way to go to help with your cycling and continued maintenance of ammonia and nitrites.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Actually plants will in fact also add bacteria to the system. Bacteria grows on any available surface in the aquarium, not just the filter.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm sorry BWG, that last part wasn't directed at you but at everyone.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

BWG said:


> Actually plants will in fact also add bacteria to the system. Bacteria grows on any available surface in the aquarium, not just the filter.


True. What I don't know is if they provide the type of nitrifyning / de-nitrifying bacteria that is needed. Someone more knowledgeable than me could answer that.

My point was that relying on plants alone to cycle a tank won't be enough. They will, though, help, without question.

Also, since you mentioned the bacteria products, they really aren't necessary. I can't say with any degree of certainty where the nitrifying and de-nitrifying bacteria come from. They will, though, develop all on their own with an ammonia source in the tank. The plants will only supplement what they do.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

There are the same bacteria. You could consider it the same as adding seeded material from an established filter or a handful of gravel in a stocking. The filter media will have the most bacteria, but is is all the same. Of course part of all this is dependent on how heavy the bioload in the original tank was.

It is absolutely possible to plants to cycle an aquarium and never get even an ammonia reading on a test. Faster plants will consume ammonia quicker than slower growers. Of the ones you mentioned a few posts ago, frogbit is very good. You've seen how fast it can grow. On the other hand Java ferns, moss, and moss balls grow so slowly that they do not provide much help. Same for things like Anubias and Crypts. We want fast growing floaters and stem plants if we want plants to function as more than just pretty seeding material. The good news here is that because those types of plants grow so quickly, they are often cheaper.

There is no perfect way. I'm not saying that plants are. To an experienced keeper then they may be. That's for them though. When it comes to a new fish keeper we have to worry not just about the right sort of plants being used but if they can keep them alive and growing well. Dying plants contribute to the production of ammonia after all. Keeping plants alive is not always hard to accomplish, but it does require some more learning. Some keepers may not wish to do even that little bit at the time. Others may decide to since plants will offer benefits long after the cycle has been completed. We have to give them the chance to decide what they want and then help them. One other downfall of plants...they're kind of addicting.

Bottled bacteria isn't necessary, no. Nor are plants or seeded material or live sponges. When you're doing a fish-in cycle you want to do whatever you can to make it go quickly for the sake of your fish. Patience and taking your time is for fishless cycling. Fish-in is all about getting it over and down with as fast as possible so that's why things like bottled bacteria come into play.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I am not really understanding what you mean when you say plants can cycle an aquarium by themselves. As I understand it, an ammonia source of some kind, whether fish in or something without a fish (food, ammonia), is required for the cycle to even begin. A plant alone will not produce the ammonia. It will only consume it.

I didn't mean to be misleading regarding the plants I suggested. I only suggested plants that I know people use to help manage nitrites in their tanks, including myself. Those types of plants do help when used as a part of a fish in or fishless cycle, but obviuosly they don't bear the burden of the cycle itself. I use plants in my cycling, but only as a supplement to the fishless method I use.

The use of fast growing plants is certainly an effective method; however, as I understand it, for using these plants to their greatest effect to cycle a tank, the aquarium itself is packed with them to start. I believe this is called a silent cycle, but I am not as familiar with this method as I am with others. But even this method requires an ammonia source for the cycle to even begin.

I'm honestly not trying to quibble with you or anyone on this subject; however, unless I am missing something, it is misleading to suggest an aquarium can be cycled without an ammonia source of some kind (unless you are transplanting bio-media into the new tank from an established tank)
. I've not read anything to suggest it could, and in no method I have read about does it suggest using decaying plant material as the ammonia source.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't think you were misleading or quibbling in the least. I was just misunderstanding your points and for that I apologize.

A source of ammonia is of course always necessary. When I said that plants could potentially cycle an aquarium by themselves I was instead referring to plants and bacteria. As you mentioned in a silent cycle or planted cycle it's the plants that consume the ammonia right from the start and do the brunt of the work. The ammonia still needs added in some way shape or form, but the method by which it is removed is different, ie consumed by plants or converted according to the ammonia cycle. Bacteria still grows, but its the plants that get through the cycle while they do. That is what I meant. Sorry for being confusing there.

As far as having to pack an aquarium full of plants, well that really is dependent on the initial bioload. A single Betta will not require wall to wall plants. For a fully stocked community with a much higher bioload than a Betta I've heard it suggested to use 2 bunches per 5 gallons of certain plants. That is info you won't see me giving out to new fishkeepers though. Even with plants my suggestion is always to stock slowly. I only ever recommend larger stockings with ammonia based fishless cycles.

I'm not suggesting plants though for a silent cycle. The fact that the fish is in the aquarium beforehand makes silent cycling impossible since ammonia readings will be there before the plants are added. In a case of fish-in cycling though plants will help supplement the bacteria by also using ammonia and reduce cycling time which is the goal. They don't have to do most of the work to be of help.

So long answer short...you're right 

Forgot about the plants causing ammonia. Sorry another misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting using plants as the ammonia source, only that if the plants weren't growing and instead dying, they could have the opposite of the intended effect.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

BWG said:


> I don't think you were misleading or quibbling in the least. I was just misunderstanding your points and for that I apologize.
> 
> A source of ammonia is of course always necessary. When I said that plants could potentially cycle an aquarium by themselves I was instead referring to plants and bacteria. As you mentioned in a silent cycle or planted cycle it's the plants that consume the ammonia right from the start and do the brunt of the work. The ammonia still needs added in some way shape or form, but the method by which it is removed is different, ie consumed by plants or converted according to the ammonia cycle. Bacteria still grows, but its the plants that get through the cycle while they do. That is what I meant. Sorry for being confusing there.
> 
> ...


I realized after the fact that I misunderstood what you were saying as well. I was on a one track frame of mind I'm afraid, and as it turns out, we were both on the same track. My apologies.

Using plants in cycling is a pretty fuzzy area for me. I just put in the plants I plan to keep as they will be a part of the tanks actual bio-filter, but it is far from being a silent cycle. I may not even be doing the plants any favors by running them through the full cycle as there are mostly slow growers in the tank. I'd love to learn more about this, like what types of plants, how many to use, etc...

I could certainly tap your experience for a tank I plan to set up as far as cycling with plants and longer term planting. It's going to be at the edge of stocking levels if not a bit over, and any experience from others here will fill in the gaps for me. Won't post that in this thread, though. Will be keeping fish other than a Betta in that tank... Sacrilege, I know


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

For the Silent Cycle it's recommened you plant at least 1/3 of the tank but I like 1/2 or more of the tank planted. The type of plants you need are fast growers like Water Wisteria, Water Sprite, Anacharis, and most floaters (duckweed, frogbit, etc.). There are more too, basically you want to stick with low light plants and fast growing plants like the ones I listed. This is true even if you have a high lighting situation, it will just mean your low light plants will only grow faster.

For the cycle to really hit it off you need your plants to grow obviously, the plants can also be an ammonia source as been pointed out but it's best if you can get the plants to grow as soon as you can ^_^ The tank can be fully stocked as long as the plants are growing.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I have to admit I've never down an ammonia fishless cycle with plants in. I like to try different things to help me learn and my ammonia attempt was on my blackwater tank. Wait that's a lie, I attempted my first ever plants in there Amazon frogbit. Easy plant right and yet I managed to kill it when my pH plummeted. The joys of fishless cycling and soft water. Had I had the knowledge at the time I might have been able to prevent it. Plenty of other people I have spoken to have had the opposite result with plants growing extremely well. If your's are fine, rapdgett37, I wouldn't start worrying now. The only type of plant I think I'd advise people against having and fishless cycling is Cryptocorynes given the likelihood of them melting in that situation.

Thanks for the info, lilnaugrim! I've only silent cycled ones and don't know how much stock I can put into that. You know how many half inch nano fish you can put in a 29 gallon planted with as many Hygrophilas and Rotala species as you can think of aand have it not show ammonia? Me neither, but I know it's more than 23!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

BWG said:


> Thanks for the info, lilnaugrim! I've only silent cycled ones and don't know how much stock I can put into that. You know how many half inch nano fish you can put in a 29 gallon planted with as many Hygrophilas and Rotala species as you can think of aand have it not show ammonia? Me neither, but I know it's more than 23!


What? lol Not sure if you're being silly or serious :lol:


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Wow that was so confusing word choices I picked there. What I meant to say is I've silent cycled once (yeah that was a typo) and don't know how much I learned from it. I was joking around though. I keep a lot of nano fish. They have so little bioload that it's next to impossible comparing them to more "normal" sized fish.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah okay lol, I see what you meant. All I ever do are Silent Cycles mixed with some TSS just to kickstart it and add the fish and let it do its thing lol.

I love nanofish though, that is basically what is in my 29 at the moment, 10 Corydoras Habrosus, and will be 11 Ember Tetras and then some Honey Gouramis to finish off although they aren't exactly nano of course. But depending on the fish and how active they are you could easily fill up the tank with fish, Ember Tetras would be fantastic in a very large school ^_^


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

Another nano keeper! 

You are definitely playing it safe with the stocking level you have planned. In mine I had 23 mosquito rasbora, 6 Dario hysginon, and 9 dwarf zebra hovering loaches. Sounds like a lot, but I had them for a couple years before some recent unfortunate losses. In fact I'd go so far as to say I could have added quite a few more fish with no problems.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yep! Well I didn't count my two YoYo loaches that I have in there for the time being and I'm getting 6 Honey Gouramis to finish off, they're mixed sexes so I don't foresee too much issue unless they happen to be all male >.< But yes, I love nano fish!!


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Thanks BWG and lilnaugrim for the info on silent cycles. Much , much clearer on that now.

I wouldn't suggest in any way to anyone that cycling with ammonia with plants in the tank is a tried and true method. It isn't. In fact it is only my own idea that could easily be based on faulty logic. I use hardier species only. Nothing delicate as I suspect they will turn to mush.

Only recently learned about nano fish, but I love what I see. An entirely different aspect of the hobby I didn't even know existed until recently. Probably because I couldn't see the fish.

My 9 gallon will be one of these (sort of). Planning to stock with 5 Marble Hatchetfish and 7-8 Ruby Tetra. Shrimp and snails will round it out for clean up. Very excited about this project, but it will be pushing the limits of the bio-load.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

As long as your plants are growing rpadgett37, you shouldn't have too much issue with the bio-load. Honestly at that point it's more about fish bumping into each other when they turn around haha. But it sounds like a good plan! I do love my nano fish too ^_^

As far as cycling with pure ammonia and plants, it can very much be done but the plants have to be growing. Which is why it's recommended to use plants like Water Wisteria and Anacharis, both of which are hardy, low light and fast growing plants. They will soak up all the ammonia before even the bacteria get a chance to eat it up so in which case of the Silent Cycle it takes much longer to actually cycle the tank but the plants will keep your fish safe by soaking up all the initial ammonia as long as they are growing.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yep! Well I didn't count my two YoYo loaches that I have in there for the time being and I'm getting 6 Honey Gouramis to finish off, they're mixed sexes so I don't foresee too much issue unless they happen to be all male >.< But yes, I love nano fish!!


Have you kept Honey Gourami with Ember Tetras before? Just curious because they are highbodied compared to a Boraras, but I'm always worried if I get too large a fish, my Boraras will get eaten. Especially after Chesh told me about her Betta eating one of her Jellybean Tetras. Any combination that people have had work involving nanos I want to add to my mental inventory.

Not sure how much you get over to the TFK side, but thekoimaiden had some issues with 3 Honey Gourami in her 29. It wasn't even the male that was the problem. The one female just did not seem to appreciate the other being there and picked on it constantly until it died.



rpadgett37 said:


> Thanks BWG and lilnaugrim for the info on silent cycles. Much , much clearer on that now.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest in any way to anyone that cycling with ammonia with plants in the tank is a tried and true method. It isn't. In fact it is only my own idea that could easily be based on faulty logic. I use hardier species only. Nothing delicate as I suspect they will turn to mush.
> 
> ...


Obviously I can't get into details here, but before I came to this forum I was at another place for a while. Ammonia AND plants together were the norm there. Everyone did it. I'd certainly say it's tried and true. I had issues, but honestly I was far from the norm. I also agree with lilnaugrim that you have nothing to worry about. 

Have you seen nanos in person? When I got my moquito rasboras I had never seen them in person. I had kitty tetras which about an inch an a quarter so I thought I knew what small was. I opened that box of online ordered fish though and found out I had no clue what small really was until then. lol

What are the dimensions on a 9 gallon? Sorry don't want to make any comments on fish since that's a size I don't know about. Don't worry I'm completely willing to talk nanos. You might regret telling me you're interested when I show you all the options and link you to profile after profile.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

BWG said:


> Obviously I can't get into details here, but before I came to this forum I was at another place for a while. Ammonia AND plants together were the norm there. Everyone did it. I'd certainly say it's tried and true. I had issues, but honestly I was far from the norm. I also agree with lilnaugrim that you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> Have you seen nanos in person? When I got my moquito rasboras I had never seen them in person. I had kitty tetras which about an inch an a quarter so I thought I knew what small was. I opened that box of online ordered fish though and found out I had no clue what small really was until then. lol
> 
> What are the dimensions on a 9 gallon? Sorry don't want to make any comments on fish since that's a size I don't know about. Don't worry I'm completely willing to talk nanos. You might regret telling me you're interested when I show you all the options and link you to profile after profile.


Good to know on the plants and ammonia. I had read about ammonia cycling and silent cycling but hadn't run across anything that talked about combining the two. It does make sense that they would, though my plant choices need to be adjusted.

I've seen Scarlet Gem Badis, Ember Tetra, Pygmy Cories and Sparkling Gouramis. Seeing how small they were in person was a surprise, especially with the Badis. I had to use my bi-focals just to see one up close. I've been very taken with the whole nano fish side of things ever since. Bring on the links 

As for the tank, it is made by a company called Schuber Wright. It's beveled and rimless and absolutely gorgeous, buit impossible to find. I went all the way to China (not literally) to find one and I swear I got the last one. The dimensions are 9.5"D x 17"W x 12"H. And I want to make it a Nano Tank. Though my heart is set on the Marbled Hatchets, I will keep an open mind as I don't have much of any knowledge about the different nano species.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I think at this point almost anything we can think of with cycling has been tried by someone. If you really want an example of that I can show you the Skeptical Aquarist where he mentions using urine to cycle. lol Plants and ammonia don't seem so outlandish now, huh?

The marbled/pygmy hatchets (two different, but related species btw) were my concern when I asked the tank dimensions. The profiles on TFK give them needing aquariums 20" in length, while Seriously Fish is quite a bit longer at 30". SF gives the need to keep them in large groups as the reason. Which is right...I don't know since honestly the profiles at both places match my experience with other fish. I've kept marbled hatchetfish in a 29, but that is going back to when I was a kid. I can't honestly tell you much beyond the fact that I kept them.

Any chance you know your pH and water hardness (if you don't have a hardness test you can usually get the hardness from your water company's website. It's what I did before buying a test). I like to know these so I can suggest fish to match the water. There's always some leeway. I just wouldn't suggest something that prefers soft, acidic water like Sundadanio axelrodi if your water is the opposite. Likewise I'd never suggest fish that prefer harder, basic water like emerald rasboras if you don't have the right water.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

BWG said:


> Have you kept Honey Gourami with Ember Tetras before? Just curious because they are highbodied compared to a Boraras, but I'm always worried if I get too large a fish, my Boraras will get eaten. Especially after Chesh told me about her Betta eating one of her Jellybean Tetras. Any combination that people have had work involving nanos I want to add to my mental inventory.
> 
> Not sure how much you get over to the TFK side, but thekoimaiden had some issues with 3 Honey Gourami in her 29. It wasn't even the male that was the problem. The one female just did not seem to appreciate the other being there and picked on it constantly until it died.


I've haven't kept them together before but I've had Honey's before without issue. The ones I'm getting I believe are from the same spawn so they shouldn't have too much issue but since I don't want another episode like what happened with my German Blue Rams (Boss Ram killed his mate and when I gave Lone Ram away, Boss Ram jumped from the tank not to been seen for a few days later when I came home :roll: he also destroyed my sorority) I will certainly give them/adopt them away if need be. I don't foresee too many issues with the Honey's, their mouths aren't super large but we'll see! I've done my research and from others' experiences, it seems to work out alright in the end. I'll let you know how it works out ^_^

Yeah, the first time I saw a Scarlet Badis in person I nearly died from cuteness! I was in the same shoes as you; thought I knew what small was until I saw those fish along with CPD's and Gold Ring Danios! I now have a Scarlet Badis who's personality is way above Bettas haha, he's also a big bully :roll: oh well.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

BWG said:


> I think at this point almost anything we can think of with cycling has been tried by someone. If you really want an example of that I can show you the Skeptical Aquarist where he mentions using urine to cycle. lol Plants and ammonia don't seem so outlandish now, huh?
> 
> The marbled/pygmy hatchets (two different, but related species btw) were my concern when I asked the tank dimensions. The profiles on TFK give them needing aquariums 20" in length, while Seriously Fish is quite a bit longer at 30". SF gives the need to keep them in large groups as the reason. Which is right...I don't know since honestly the profiles at both places match my experience with other fish. I've kept marbled hatchetfish in a 29, but that is going back to when I was a kid. I can't honestly tell you much beyond the fact that I kept them.
> 
> Any chance you know your pH and water hardness (if you don't have a hardness test you can usually get the hardness from your water company's website. It's what I did before buying a test). I like to know these so I can suggest fish to match the water. There's always some leeway. I just wouldn't suggest something that prefers soft, acidic water like Sundadanio axelrodi if your water is the opposite. Likewise I'd never suggest fish that prefer harder, basic water like emerald rasboras if you don't have the right water.


I read the same thing about the Hatchfish, both in size and numbers. I was rethinking this last night and decided to get a larger aquarium a little down the road that gives them surface area they need. Then I could keep them in a group of 6 or more.... Yay me 

As far as water parameters, out of the tap i am at PH 7.2, but I am rechecking that after using an airstone for a little while. Kh is at 20 ppm (1.1 dK), and GH is at 30 ppm (1.7 dH) so I know the water is good for these guys. The PH is a little high but since these two come from blackwater environments, I was planning to use either IAL Extract (made myself) or Saltyshrimp Blackwater Powder which will bring it down to slightly acidic conditions. I am lucky with this tap water. It's easier to djust up than it is to bring it down.



> Yeah, the first time I saw a Scarlet Badis in person I nearly died from  cuteness! I was in the same shoes as you; thought I knew what small was until I saw those fish along with CPD's and Gold Ring Danios! I now have a Scarlet Badis who's personality is way above Bettas haha, he's also a big bully
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol. I've read about their antics, and I'll bet they are as fun to watch as Cichlids marking their territory. 

I was at the LFS yesterday (not really local as it's an hour away), and watched them for a little bit. The store has them in the same tank as some shrimp. As I was zeroed in on him, an Amano shrimp burst into the scene. First time I've seen one of those, and he was huge by comparison. That shrimp looked scary and I feared for the Badis life


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

lilnaugrim said:


> I've haven't kept them together before but I've had Honey's before without issue. The ones I'm getting I believe are from the same spawn so they shouldn't have too much issue but since I don't want another episode like what happened with my German Blue Rams (Boss Ram killed his mate and when I gave Lone Ram away, Boss Ram jumped from the tank not to been seen for a few days later when I came home :roll: he also destroyed my sorority) I will certainly give them/adopt them away if need be. I don't foresee too many issues with the Honey's, their mouths aren't super large but we'll see! I've done my research and from others' experiences, it seems to work out alright in the end. I'll let you know how it works out ^_^
> 
> Yeah, the first time I saw a Scarlet Badis in person I nearly died from cuteness! I was in the same shoes as you; thought I knew what small was until I saw those fish along with CPD's and Gold Ring Danios! I now have a Scarlet Badis who's personality is way above Bettas haha, he's also a big bully :roll: oh well.


Thank you  I'm honestly not too worried about the honey gouramis eating ember tetras. I mean they are used as dithers for Apistos. For me it's a case of intellectually I think it'll work, but as you showed with the Rams, what we think should work doesn't always. I'd feel much more comfortable recommending the combination to someone if I know someone's done it.

My one male Dario hysginon (they'll be in the links I post for rpadgett37 later on if you want to see) was definitely the boss of the other Dario. He probably wished he was the boss of the tank, but whenever the dwarf hovering zebra loaches were feeling playful he took off to hide.

You guys want cute nano fish? Agent13 said I could show her video, but sadly I can't find it! She has pygmy sunfish! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=864nMX2rB3w Not the species Agent13 has, but Elassoma all have a courtship dance like that.



rpadgett37 said:


> I read the same thing about the Hatchfish, both in size and numbers. I was rethinking this last night and decided to get a larger aquarium a little down the road that gives them surface area they need. Then I could keep them in a group of 6 or more.... Yay me
> 
> As far as water parameters, out of the tap i am at PH 7.2, but I am rechecking that after using an airstone for a little while. Kh is at 20 ppm (1.1 dK), and GH is at 30 ppm (1.7 dH) so I know the water is good for these guys. The PH is a little high but since these two come from blackwater environments, I was planning to use either IAL Extract (made myself) or Saltyshrimp Blackwater Powder which will bring it down to slightly acidic conditions. I am lucky with this tap water. It's easier to djust up than it is to bring it down.
> 
> ...


Not saying it is necessary or that you have to do it, but the more shoalers the better in my book. If 6 fish together look good, 12 or more look even better in my opinion. Plus their behavior is even more natural the larger the group you have, at least in my opinion. I do keep larger shoals, but it is sooooo hard when choosing stock because I want to keep so many species. For you as a new fishkeeper, it's probably even worse. Nothing wrong with keeping just 6 of species, I just wanted to share a different viewpoint.

Your water is even softer than mine! Mine averages about 50 ppm (I just say 3 dGH which is close enough). Mine is more acidic though and half my tanks I can't even get a reading on since the API test kit only goes down to 6.0. 

How far along in your fishless cycle are you? I had issues with the bacteria consuming my limited KH and that allowing the pH to drop to where the bacteria stopped working. So my fishless cycle kept stalling on me until I finally buffered the water. I don't do that anymore, but I found it necessary during the supercharged environment that is an ammonia cycle. Hoping that doesn't happen for you.

I'm in complete agreement about your pH being easy to lower with your KH being what it is. In my blackwater tank I use a combination of lots of driftwood, leaves (oak and IAL), and alder cones to get the tea coloring. I've never tried additives, either bought or self-made. I really don't think one ways is better than the other. Just depends on how you want to do it. I wanted an abundance of leaves on the bottom and doing that was enough for me to get the water color I wanted.

You have soft water like me :twisted: Seriously Fish is down and I'm feeling lazy today. That site has most the profiles I want to show, otherwise I'd have to have tabs for a bunch of sites open. Are you interested in just fish for your 9 gallon or just small fish in general to learn about?

*edit* Forgot to mention one thing. The plants you have now are likely fine. They don't really care about hardness. Many plants however like a GH around 5dGH. Depending on what you get in the future you may also want to think about getting something like Seachem Equilibrium. I personally raise my GH in my stem tank, but don't bother in my moss/Crypt/Anubias one.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yes! I love the Pgymy Sunfish and I was going to have some in my 29 instead of the Gourami's but since I'm not doing my other tank which was going to have larger fish, most likely some Pearl Gourami's I had to go the opposite end and get Honeys ^_^ but that's okay 

I do also agree on the number of schooling fish; the more the better and usually appealing. It was so hard for me to finally settle with Ember Tetras lol but they fit my water chemistry better than other cooler water fish (my room gets real hot in the summer time so no colder water fish for me! At least Tetras can stand a higher temp range)


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Agent has Pygmy sunfish. Man are they SMALL.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

> Not saying it is necessary or that you have to do it, but the more shoalers the better in my book. If 6 fish together look good, 12 or more look even better in my opinion. Plus their behavior is even more natural the larger the group you have, at least in my opinion. I do keep larger shoals, but it is sooooo hard when choosing stock because I want to keep so many species. For you as a new fishkeeper, it's probably even worse. Nothing wrong with keeping just 6 of species, I just wanted to share a different viewpoint.


I couldn't agree more, and that's the behavior I wish to see. I've never really kept a community tank before, nor anything beyond a betta and some goldfish. This is truly all new to me. But that is the behavior I want to see in the shoals. 


> How far along in your fishless cycle are you? I had issues with the bacteria consuming my limited KH and that allowing the pH to drop to where the bacteria stopped working. So my fishless cycle kept stalling on me until I finally buffered the water. I don't do that anymore, but I found it necessary during the supercharged environment that is an ammonia cycle. Hoping that doesn't happen for you.


I actually haven't started the cycle just yet. I have two other tanks I am working on now. Doing my due dilligence in preparation for the 9, which will be soon. Very excited about this project. 
I am quite certain I will need to buffer my PH, not just during the cycle but afterwards as well for the IAL (species dependent). 


> I'm in complete agreement about your pH being easy to lower with your KH being what it is. In my blackwater tank I use a combination of lots of driftwood, leaves (oak and IAL), and alder cones to get the tea coloring. I've never tried additives, either bought or self-made. I really don't think one ways is better than the other. Just depends on how you want to do it. I wanted an abundance of leaves on the bottom and doing that was enough for me to get the water color I wanted


Just a personal preference for me. Don't like the look of dead vegetation on the floor of my tank. It's easy enough to make the extract with boiling the leaves. Found a good set of instructions on how to do it. It is a three day process... Man that takes dedication  
The only reason I was looking at the Saltyshrimp Black Powder is because it takes the stuff in it from the blackwater nutrients and compounds from the Amazon. I wasn't sure if IAL and other things would be as good. Does it matter? ,br/>


> You have soft water like me :twisted: Seriously Fish is down and I'm feeling lazy today. That site has most the profiles I want to show, otherwise I'd have to have tabs for a bunch of sites open. Are you interested in just fish for your 9 gallon or just small fish in general to learn about?


Both. Definitely want a variety to consider for my little tank. 


> *edit* Forgot to mention one thing. The plants you have now are likely fine. They don't really care about hardness. Many plants however like a GH around 5dGH. Depending on what you get in the future you may also want to think about getting something like Seachem Equilibrium. I personally raise my GH in my stem tank, but don't bother in my moss/Crypt/Anubias one.


Already have it. What I currently rely on to raise the GH in my tanks. Thinking of trying the Saltyshrimp products for tropical aquariums. Bought a Zerowater filter today (poor man's sort of RO unit). Going to try it on this water and see how it goes. Really appreciate this. Having loads of fun already


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## Chesh (Feb 17, 2012)

Now that I've kept a shoal of 20, I can't imagine keeping less. . . and I don't consider 20 to be very many! ^__^
Can't wait to see what you (both!) end up stocking! (are we about to get a Corylist? *ishexcited*)


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Chesh said:


> Now that I've kept a shoal of 20, I can't imagine keeping less. . . and I don't consider 20 to be very many! ^__^
> Can't wait to see what you (both!) end up stocking! (are we about to get a Corylist? *ishexcited*)


Ooooo... Yes Please.


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## BWG (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm not going to distinguish between easy/hard fish. The profiles typically speak for themselves. Same with tank size. Right now this is just to show you all the options in small (from really tiny to just small)fish there are. Some while small, do require tanks of at least 24". I'm also only listing fish I've seen for sale (usually online).

Boraras sp.-Start off with my faves. I keep B. naevus and B. brigittae. B. micros is never seen for sale, at least that I've seen.
Microdevario sp.
Sundadanio-This has been split into 8 species, but they are still seemingly just all sold as S. axelrodi. Just don't mix colors.
Dario kajal
Dario hysginon
Scarlet Badis
Danionella dracula
Danionella translucida
Ember Tetra
Clown Killifish
Red Cherry Rasbora
Axelrodia sp. Not sure why that tank size recommendation to be honest.
Jelly Bean Tetra-Check out Chesh's pics on there! Woohoo!
Hengel's Rasbora
Lambchop Rasbora
Emerald Eye Rasbora
Burmese Rosy Loach
Dwarf Zebra Hovering Loach
Pygmy Cory
Dwarf Cory
Aspidoras pauciradiatus
Hara jerdoni
Dadio
Daisy's Ricefish
Spotted Blue Eye
Adonis Tetra
Least Killifish
Gold Ring Danio
Celestial Pearl Danio
Glowlight Danio
Panther Danio
Dwarf Spotted Danio
Jae Barb
African Butterfly Barb
Golden Dwarf Barb
Pethia canius
Pethia aurea

Is that enough for now? I can keep going. I omitted species that need hard, basic water (Asian Rummynose, Emerald Rasbora, Red Dwarf Rasbora, etc), fish that are more normal sized but ideal with nanos (Eight Banded False Barbs, Neolabias sp, Drapefin Barbs, etc), and even some small fish that might work (Elassoma sp, Swamp Darters, Pygmy Killifish, Tiger Teddies, etc) just in case anyone wants a part two.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Going through this list will keep me occupied for days Thanks for the list BWG.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Hahaha! And he's not kidding! He can pump out another list just as large as that if you ask! I'm surprised you left out the dwarf pangio!


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

What about Least Killifish? They do well in soft water (I caught mine in water that had a ph of around 6.2! With incredibly low gh and kh.), are absolutely adorable, personable, and are also livebearers. 

In journal thread (http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-journals/lets-have-adventure-358858/page5/) you can see a few pictures I have of them.  

They're my first nano-fish, I have them in a ten gallon. The males are around half an inch, the females around an inch. Smallest native fish in North America!


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I've opened a new thread in Other Fish for the continuing Nano-Fish Discussion:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=4235506#post4235506


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

There's actually more water parameter stuff here so a continuation in this thread is appropriate.

I've looked at some of these fish, but unfortunately, I get a 502 bad gateway message trying to go there today. But there is one fish I fell in love with... don't remember which one, though, at the moment. It is a beautiful luminescent green.

The conditions in their tank, though, would put it in the hard to keep category due to requiring both soft and very acidic conditions. Almond leaves, peat moss, anything else that keeps PH low, are recommended.

My biggest concern in keeping conditions like this is how to keep it stable. I would think keeping peat moss either in the filter or in the aquarium would be very imprecise. I should think stability would be important. How would that work?


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Ready for list number 2.


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