# Fish is itchy!



## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

It's been about ten years since I owned a fish. I was at walmart and fell in love with two betta's who didn't seem very healthy. I had to buy them and get them out of that environment. So I bought a small tank with a divider, some rocks, and some fake plants. I put them into the tank together. For the first week they seemed fine. The clean water doing wonders. But then one of them fell ill suddenly. I bought Jungle Parasite Clear Fizz tabs after consulting some local pet stores and doing some online research. The fish died, that same day. It was devistating. 

I took the remaining fish, Jupitor and placed him into a ten gallen tank which I filled half way with fresh water and placed half a fizz tab in. I washed all the rocks and plants and disinfected the original tank. After a week of treatment, following the dirrections on the box and pet store, I put Jupitor back in his little tank with the rocks and plants. He got sick again, external parasites, and I continued treatment.

I learned more about the parasites after I discovered three clear, worm-like creatures swimming in the tank. I only saw this because I happened to be shinning a flashlight into the tank and one of the worms had filled itself with blood from my fish and I could see the red. I wasn't able to find much online about this worm so took a guess and figured it was the one that drops off from the meds but will reproduce in two days. I realized there might be eggs in the rocks. Panicing, I put him back in the large tank and tossed the rocks and plants.

I've recently placed him back in his tank without anything but a temonitor. I've watched him closely for two weeks and he's been healthy, there are no abnormal behavors. Except that he only seems to use the bathroom once a week and it comes out as a brown mucus ball that seems way to large for a fish. Is this normal? I've only ever seen fish go in long thin strings. I'm extremly careful about how much I feed him, going off what I observe him to eat and past experance, but I have temperarily reduced his food just to be on the safe side. He's eating Betta fish flakes only. I don't have the money (unemployed presently) to get fancy worms or medications.

For Christmas I got Jupitor a new bag of rocks for his tank so he'd not be bord to death. I cleaned them by hand with warm water in a strainer. Then I boiled them for half-an-hour, rinsed and drained, then let them sit for a day in a half before rinsing again and putting in a freshly scrubbed tank. I rinsed a new fake plant and placed that in the tank as well. I'd let tap water sit for 30 hrs and poored it in, then added some fresh tap water to top off the tank, leaving two inches for air circulation. I added my water conditioner, about four drops. I change his water 75-100% every 2-4 days depending on how fast it starts to fog. I try to change it completly whenever possible. Unless medicating, then I follow instructions.

My fish has been in his new environment for two days, he didn't show any odd signs in behavor. Mild stress, but that's normal around this household. There's three cats who enjoy visiting his tank. I do my best to talk to him each day and play games and we've a ruiteen when changing his tank so it's not as upsetting for him. He normally remains calm through it all.

He seemed a bit bord yesterday, just floating in his tank. I went to feed him and he would eat the flakes then spit most of them out. He does that sometimes. About 6am he started rubbing himself against the plant and threamonitor. I thought it was him playing with his reflection at first but then noticed it was actual itching. He's been iching like mad for the last two hours, already started to rub and pull back his scales. I changed 95% of his water, conditioned it, and eventually broke down and treated him for parasites using Jungle again. I gave 1/3 a tablet (he's in a small tank). 

I'm told that this should treat for ick as well since ick is a parasite. I have ick meds that I bought but would rather take back to the store. I don't see any white dots. How long do they take to appear?

Jupitor seems to be tiring himself out from the itching, which is what is making him seem mildly lethurgic. The meds seem to be helping to calm the itching (within 40mins of threatment). His fins are not clamped more then usual, and he's not darting about crazily. Just seems very itchy and spits his food out. He's rubbing the body near the head (but doesn't appear to be the gills) and along the base near the fin. With a flashlight I can sort of see specks on him near the back where he's been rubbing. I don't know if this is ick starting to form, or chaffing of the scales from all the rubbing. Or it could be velvet. 

My fish is a dark blue-green, almost black near the head. He's got a natural goldish tint to his body and fins, red eyes, and red along the tips of his front fins beneath his face. I'm inexperanced with Ick, it's not something our fish have had very often...if ever. There's a warming on the meds for Ick not to overdose. I don't want to medicate the fish unless I know that's what it is for sure. So I'm just using the parasite clear, I only want to do one treatment and hope that helps. 

Could it be that my fish is illurgic to the rocks or something? I can't keep him in an empty tank, he'll go nuts, but this is twice now that I've had this problem, both times when I've put rocks in the tank. While the first time could have been from the original infection, I just don't see how this one can be. My fish has been clean for three weeks nearly. This is a different tank from treatment and all new products. Please help. Is this going to kill him or just take some time to pass?

Thanks-Zorra
PS. sorry this post was so long. Figured you'd better understand what he's been through for a better assessment.

UPDATE: The itching seems to have decreased, figured the meds would help with that and prevent infection if it is his scales he's chaffing away and not spots from parasites. He's mostly just floating in the middle of the tank and his fins are limp, he's not moving more then he needs too. Is that what they call clamping? He swims to the surface for a gulp of air then floats back down. He will swim about calmly if I come up to his tank or shin the flashlight in. I'm just not seeing anything unusual on his skin but he's just so hard to see even with the flashlight cuz he's so dark and multicolored blues.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

Update: The itching comes in spurts and is still bad. When he's not scratching, he's resting near the top of the tank, his body pulled downward like he's trying to walk on his tale fins. He did finally take three flakes of food which he swollowed and seems attentive when given attention. The scales on his backside seem to have settled (or paracites fell off) not seeing specks now. Then again, he's not at an angle I can easily check. There are, however, red sores and patches near his head where he's rubbed. How do I treat these so they don't become infected? Do I need to treat them or does the parasite meds do that? I have epsom salt if that can be used? If so, how do I use it, never have before. Is epsom salt really safe for betta's, I've heard otherwise?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

First off, don't feed flakes. Highly suggest switching to Omega One Betta Buffet or New Life Spectrum Betta pellets. Also it sounds like based on spitting up food intermittently and the description of poo that the parasites have gone internal. I would suggest picking up some anti parasite fish food or if you can't find any you can make your own with Seachem's Metronidazole and Focus. You can use fish treated water or I like to use garlic guard. Put a little of the liquid in a small dish with one measure each of focus and metro. Soak for 10-15min and feed 2 pellets twice a day for at least a week, but he may need 2 weeks. I like to mix this up fresh every time I feed because Metro has a very short half life but some people will keep it in the fridge a few days.

Is he in a heated tank? You really need to get a heater and maintain it at 80F for the duration of this treatment and after that he'd do well down a degree or two. Anything below 76 and he's going to be prone to getting sick.

What do you mean by one treatment? A lot of those meds say every other day for 2 or 4 days or whatever. Do you mean one complete round according to the box or just one dose? Because one dose is just going to breed a super infection that's resistant. You need to follow through at least one full round.

He doesn't need epsom salt unless he's bloated to dropsy level.

As long as you keep his water very very clean you should not have a problem with the sores becoming infected. What do you have in there that can rub him so raw? I might think about removing some of the more sharp decorations and replacing with smooth ones.

If he keeps getting sick after you put his tank equipment in you may not be cleaning it properly. The tank and rocks and anything non porous needs to be bleached. If it can't be bleached, you can potentially pressure cook it. If you can do neither, toss it. To bleach use a 10% solution soak for 10 minutes, rinse very very well, then soak again with water and declorinator and then out gas 24 hours. Should be safe and sterile. Pressure cooking needs 250 degrees at 15lbs for a minimum of 30minutes. Obviously, not all tank equipment can maintain that heat. Rocks can. Ceramic stuff can. Plants and plastic stuff probably can't.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Zorra. Do you see little white spots on Jupiter? Like he was sprinkled with sea salt? If not, but he is still itching, then he probably has skin and gill flukes and some other possible external parasites. Pretty much all external parasites except ich and velvet are invisible to the naked eye. 

You don't need expensive meds to treat Jupiter but you do need aquarium salt (you can get it at Petsmart) and an adjustable heater. Yes, the heater will be expensive ($20-30 for a good one) but it will help him not just now but in the long run as well. Buying a heater would be far better than buying any kind of medications. Bettas are tropical fish and need waters that stay at 78-80 degrees F. Without those warm waters, their immune system becomes compromised and they become sick very easily. To keep Jupiter alive for a long time, he'll need a heater.

Since the wattages for heaters are different, I'm going to actually suggest you leave him in the 10g so you only need to get a 50w heater. It would be easier to move him into his smaller tank, but then you'd need to buy two heaters: a 25w for the small tank and a 50w for the big one.

For Jupiter's treatment, add 3 tsps of the aquarium salt per gallon and let the salt dissolve before adding him back in. Every day, you need to do at least 50% changes because you need to remove any parasites that have fallen off from the treatment before they reproduce or reattach. Change the water, vacuum the bottom of the tank with a gravel vacuum, and redose the salts. It's very important to only replace the same amount of salt that you took out. If you take out half the water, only replace half the salt.

Do this for at least a week. Now, if you can and do get the adjustable heater, slowly crank it up to 86 degrees. The high heat shortens the lifespan of most parasites, making the treatment time a little shorter.

I hope this helps you with your little fella.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

This will not treat the internal parasite. If he's spitting up food, and pooping only once a week a mucus stool it's gone internal and it does need real meds. Sorry.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That is true it could be internal but many bettas don't eat when they don't feel well. His reluctance to eat could be due to many issues, including an abundance of gill flukes. Gill and skin flukes are invisible but on very rare cases or in very large fish, some have been known to grow long enough to be just barely visible. I wonder if perhaps these were the worm-like things seen swimming in the tank. 

Not all bettas poop at the same rate. Some bettas really do only poop once a week, particularly depending on the tail type. And a lumpish poo can be normal. What would really indicate an internal parasite would be a stringy whitish poo. And unfortunately, I've found Seachem Focus to be quite hard to find. Which kinda sucks 'cause I needed some a few weeks ago.

I feel that right now, pinpointing the cause of the itching is more urgent as this is what is causing him the most discomfort. If this goes away and he is still refusing food and beginning to show signs of bloating, then the treatment for internal infections that you outlined would be helpful. But again, this is all up to what Zorra wants to do and can afford to do. As before, I would stress that buying a heater is more vital than medications for something that may not be the root problem. If the problem is ich or an external parasite, this can be treated with the minimum of expense outside the cost of a heater, which is necessary anyway. 

Also, Zorra, how is he breathing? How is his gill movement and can you possibly describe the color of his gills? And Zorra, please choose whatever you feel is best for you, your budget, and your fish.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Other than the mucous part, this fish seems to be having normal bowel movements. Poop can fall under rocks, unless you have a bare bottom tank you really cannot judge how often they are pooping. 

Zorra: Does his poop look like little reddish colored cinnamon buns? Sorry but that's the best way to describe it lol

I'm more apt to say external as well. Spitting up food could be something as simple as having a hard time chewing the food he's given. My boys do this with pellets all the time.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The mucous most likely is extra slime coat the betta has produced in his effort to rid himself of his external parasites. This is their natural defense against such things: produce enough slime that the buggers can't stay attached. That's why AQ salt works well in these instances, because it encourages the production of slime coat without the use of medication.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

He said the poop was mucasy.. that's definitely internal problem and coupled with the spitting up food and lack of pooing makes it that much more likely. Some bettas do poop less often and some do spit up foods but if that wasn't normal for him pre illness that's important to note.

I'm just spoiled because my local fish shop has everything but you can get seachem products off amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-641-Focus-5gram/dp/B0002A5X8C


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'd be interested in a pic of mucousy poo because I've never really seen it. Since it's underwater, poo just sorta naturally looks mucousy all the time to me, haha. 

Zorra, can I ask for a clarification on how he's eating? Sick bettas will tend to kind of "lip" their food listlessly but not actually take it in and swallow it. They may mouth it, suck it in and then let it drop when they realize they aren't hungry. Actually spitting up food would entail ingesting the food, then regurgitating it back up. Knowing which one Jupiter is doing would help us all narrow down his symptoms and treatment.

Yeah, lucky you to have such a nice LFS. Alas, not all LFS are created equal. Darn it, 'cause I want your LFS.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for the feeding tip Callistra. When I said medication I ment one complete round acording to instructions. As for the rubbing raw, he's got rocks in his tank that I added two days before this started. The sores develuped in half an hour while we waited for the medication to start working. He was itching so badly, he rubbed against his themonitor, the glass, the rocks. I took out the plants. Once the meds kicked in he calmed and wasn't scratching as badly. I went to the store and they gave me some bettafix to prevent infection of the sores. I used some last night and today their almost healed. I've been praying a lot too. As for a heated tank, he's near my lamp which is the only sorce of light in the livingroom, and it's rather warm in this room so his water is normally about 74 degress. He doesn't handle warmer water very well, and the tank is to small for a heater, the termonitor, and still allow him ample room to swim. I personally think his current tank is to small and it's designed for two fish. I'm looking into a larger one, will use a heater then cuz it comes with it.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for all your help and concerns. I spent a few hours after posting, reading the rest of the message board and checking out more websites, then spoke with the reps over at the pet store. So I think I'm able to answer your questions a bit more clearly now.

First off, I had his water tested at the store. They said it was perfect. The rocks, I had bought at the same store, rinsed and boiled them the moment I opened the bag. Let them sit in the strainer for a day and rinsed again just before placing in the aquarium. The plants I only rinsed in warm water and scrubbed. They'd never been used before. I'm wondering if the parisites could be in the rocks which is why I trashed the first set I'd bought last time this happened. These are colored rocks, I don't know if they can safely be bleached or if I'd be able to rinse them well enough to be used again. Suggestions? Figuring it's not likely that he's allergic to them or the die in them.

My tank is a plastic 2.5-3 gal. (I'm guessing on size) one of those five dollar ones from walmart that hold two bettas with a divider. I'm unemployed and the fish were a mercy save so I got what I could afford. The ten gal I bought was a full kit (no heater) but it's to big for my appartment and I have no where to place it but the kitchen counter and it got so hot in there that it heated the water to 90 degrees. If I can find the reciete they said I can exchange it for a large betta tank kit with a heater. That'll be more convent and better for Jupitor. I want him to have a colorful and playful environment but still lots of room to swim. He's a rather large betta compared to ones I've had in the past. From nose to tailtip, he's larger then my finger.

As for flakes, I'm going to give that other food ya'll suggested a try as soon as I'm able. I've heard fishfood can have parasites in them too. In the past we've only ever feed them Betta flakes and let them eat the roots of plants, but I don't have those plants anymore, they wouldn't survive in my appartment I get no sunlight, saddly. 

Thanks for clearifying the eating habbits. He's lipping the food, takes in a flake maybe chews it once cuz he spits it back out all broken up. He's not vomiting. As of yesterday, he's no longer even interested in the food. As for the poo, I'm not to worried, the rep at the store told me it was normal and just to keep and eye on him and his eating a bit better. I'm not seeing anything like blood or worms in it and he's not blotted. So maybe that time it was a case of overeating and stress, but I'll be mindful of it from now on.

The petstore said it might be flukes and from what I read on someone else's post who's delt with them before, I think that maybe what it is. I'm just not seeing any of the signs that I saw before when he was sick with Parasites, aside from the itching. They told me not to treat for Ick unless I see fuzz. He looks perfectly fine.  I'm not seeing anything sugar-like, no discolorations, no blood streaks on his skin. The little dots (or damaged scales from rubbing) near the back of his body settled or fell off. He looks perfect. He's only clamping his fins a little, but I'm not seeing any pinpricks or signs of rot or damage. 

He is swimming a bit agressively for a few seconds once in a while, Not like sesures, but just thrashing a bit, doing circles, I get the impression he's fighting with his shadow. I think he's done it twice today. Otherwise, he's passive. Occasionally follows my finger around while I'm checking him with the flashlight. I think his eyes are more sensative to the light then normal. He's mostly leaning against the side of the tank almost like he's trying to stand up with his nose towards the surface. I changed the water again this morning, and only put in enough water for him to swim about in so he can easily reach the surface for air. 

I believe he's coming up for air and taking in more gulps then he usually does, but not so-much-so that he's gasping. His gills seem to be working normally. I'm a bit confused when it comes to looking at gills. My fish has always had what appears to be a black flap around his gills that moves when he breaths. Far as I can tell, that's normal and there is no discoloration or red or white around it. Am I looking at it properly? They don't stick out or appear to be bloated or puffy, so I don't think they are swollen, and there's no mucus. My last fish had a lot of mucus coming out of his gills, it had appeared suddenly.

I'm so confused. It's like he's slowing down, recovering and resting, or he's getting worse and isn't strong enough to do much else but rest. I don't have the feeling like he's suffering and dieing slowly, just sick. But I have the sence that if he dies, it's going to be sudden and I'm hesitant to leave him for fear of finding him dead later. I hate feeling this way. I really do love him. It sucks how it seems the smaller the pet the more it hurts. Or maybe I've just watched to many souls die this year and at my breaking point. Sorry, I'm babbling, lack of sleep and I'm upset and stressed.

The meds have helped reduce the itching, I've not seen him do it but once this morning. But he's wanting to stay in his corner and not move unless he's got too. He won't take food, and I don't know if the medication in the water is now just making him ill or if it's still working to help him. If it was flukes it seems they've all fallen away and no longer bothering him. Plus the waters getting a bit cloudy so I'm going to have to change it again this afternoon and remove the remaining rocks for a proper cleaning. I have to clean them by hand each time because I don't have a vacume yet but I think that's for the best anyway. I plan to give him one more dose of the parasite meds then I have to wait two days. Is it safe to use the AQ salt with the medication? I was going to go buy some today.

Something I'm not to sure about. He's got a lot of white/pale scales near his face and chin which is his natural coloring, then mostly blackish-blue on top. But I'm seeing a white ring around both his eyes. Its not fuzzy or on the eye itself. It's not dots. Just a solid almost completely thin round ring. Is this normal for a betta or a sign of harm. His eyes are still clear and alert. Their not swollen or puffy, or popping out.

I learned a bit about slime coats. In hind sight maybe this was something I should have paid more attention too. A few days ago, his water had just been changed but he was icking it up rather quickly. There was nothing in the tank with him, no decoration or rocks but he was sheeding a lot of slime coat. I didn't really know what this was, but he'd done it once before so I figured it was like a monthly shedding or something. But ya'll are saying that they do that to shed the parasites and things. I just kept changing the water till he was back to normal. About two days he did that. Then was fine for about four-five, then got sick.

About 13 years ago or so my mom got us into betta's for about two years before I went back to guppies. I've never had a sick betta before and all of ours were resques from walmart just about. So this is all new. My guppies never were sick to the point of needing medications or water treatment. I feel so out of the loop. I thought fish would be low matinace but last time I had fish, water conditioning wasn't a must. 

Is there anything more I can do other then what I'm already doing? Is it just a matter of time now? How long till I know one way or the other if he's going to improve?


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

He's finally come out of his corner and is swiming around a little. He also took a little food. I'm taking that as a good sign.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Zorra. *hugs* I understand the stress, it's really hard when bettas are sick because they can't give us the usual signs that let us know what's wrong like a cat or dog might. 

As far as I know, it's safe to use AQ salt with Jungle Labs Parasite Fizz Tabs. However, if the tabs themselves seem to be working, you can hold off on the AQ salt so we don't bombard his little system with too much. 

Based on what you wrote, he's no longer itching? This is good. Right now, your guy has two pretty serious issues going on: his external parasites and an internal bacterial infection (not internal parasites, though). The open wounds left from his scratching have most likely become infected and his behavior is beginning to reflect that. Treating this is going to be tricky because I'd like to make sure all the external parasites are gone, which would mean finishing up treatment with the fizz tabs. But if we don't treat his internal problem, he'll continue to get worse. Sooo . . . 

Treatment Plan 1:
If you feel confident that the external parasites have been treated, then do a full water change and clean his tank as thoroughly as you can. To treat his internal infection, you will, unfortunately, need medications.  Since he's not eating, the usual and best method of feeding medicated food as suggested by Callistra won't work. We'll have to try epsom salt and Mardel Maracyn I and II. For an 8 pack, each med will cost $6.99 at Petsmart. Because I'm not sure if he has a gram negative or gram positive infection, both meds will be needed. Another option is to go to a specialized local fish store and look for Seachem Kanaplex and treat him with that. I'm not sure how much Kanaplex would cost, though. It's a stronger med and treats both types of infections but it can be very hard to find in store (most of us have to order it online).

Put him in 1 tsp of epsom salts per gallon and treat him with the meds as instructed on the packaging. Maracyn is light-sensitive to cover his tank with a towel. If you need help converting the 10g dosage to a smaller one, let me know.

Treatment Plan 2:
If you think he still has a problem with external parasites, then finish treating with the parasite tabs and THEN treat for his internal infection as outlined in plan 1. 

Alternatively, you can try to treat his bacterial infection using only 3 tsps of epsom salt. The salts will help to leech out the buildup of fluids in his organs caused by the internal infection; this will help stave off dropsy. But the salts won't actually do anything to cure it. We'll have to rely on his inner resilience for that. This has been successful before but I'd say it's a 50/50 chance. 

I hope this info helps you and I really hope Jupiter is able to pull through. You're doing a good job with him so hang in there, okay? 

To keep him as warm as possible, wrap a towel around his tank.

Good luck and keep us updated.


EDIT: If he will eat, try to find Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated Pellets at Petsmart. To encourage him to eat these, soak them in a bit of garlic juice. Take some fresh garlic or the juice of a jar of minced garlic and mix it with a bit of tank water so it's good and garlicky. Soak the pellets in that for a moment and then see if he'll eat them. The Anti-Parasite pellets contain metronidazole, which not only treats internal parasites but is also effective against internal bacterial infections.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Maracyn II is absorbed through the skin/gills like Kanamyacin (Kanaplex by Seachem is most easily obtainable version in my experience) unlike other meds which would rely on the fish taking gulps of water so either of those would probably do well if it is internal bacterial.

However, if he's swimming oddly (like the thrashing and darting you described) that's very symptomatic of internal parasite.. could be residual external but fish will swim pretty funny when having an internal parasite infection and depending you might not see any outside symptoms at all.. which is why you may not see anything on him now. The external may be taken care of (take care to finish this round) but he may still be fighting things internally.

Also just from personal experience, one of my fish will eat metro prazi and focus soaked pellets (which is what the jungle stuff is.. metro and prazi plus one other thing I can't remember) but won't touch the Jungle stuff. In fact he'll eat anything including his an attempt at own poo if I don't suck it off the floor fast enough so I was pretty surprised he couldn't do the Jungle. If he'll eat the Jungle stuff it's very good and should definitely work, but it has a rather low acceptance rate from my experience and from talking to others and in that case the mix it up your own stuff yourself with the garlic juice shouldn't be ruled out just because he won't take the Jungle. Also soaking the Jungle for 10 minutes or so and then cutting it in half (they get pretty big) may help but it wouldn't for my one boy. I wonder if it has some degree more to do with the food ingredient itself and not the meds mix based on him since he took Hikari soaks but not the Jungle.. but I really don't know.

Metro and Kanaplex can be mixed supposedly.. Seachems reps have encouraged it in some cases and I've known people to do it, but I wouldn't go there myself since both can be stressful on the kidneys. At this point, I would go the parasite pellet (Jungle or self made) approach since it will get the parasites and may help any residual secondary bacterial issue. 

Oh and the boy I'm treating now for an internal case had mucasy white poo that cleared up to some degree with Metro and fully with Kanaplex. It was like..almost fluffy poo.. very odd. Never seen anything like it and could find only one obscure and not followed through forum post talking about it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I think the reluctance to take Jungle pellets has more to do with the ingredients (mostly wheat) but unfortunately, as I noted, Kanaplex can be hard to find.  I wish it wasn't. I personally haven't seen Seachem Metro but I have found Hikari Metro which could be used as a food soak. Another option, although a bit more expensive and requiring a short wait for shipping, is to get kanamycin flakes from online. www.angelsplus.com in the medicated food section.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

I thought I'd come by and give an update. I went to petsmart twice today, unfortunitly it was before I saw your most resent posts about the food. I did look at some of the food that was sugested before but since I'm a bit squeemish, the rep pointed me towards a parasite free food, likely what you pointed out above but they didn't have any in stock. 

I was able to trade the ten gal aquarium for a smaller betta tank of 3.5gal. It's rather large in my opion and is a bit taller then I should like, but I'm going to get two guppies and some snails to share the space later on. It didn't come with a heater but it does come with colored lights that have ten different intensity settings and a filter. My friend is going to buy me a small air pump next payday and a vacume hose for the rocks. So nice of him. He's into crustations and wants to get a crab for my tank. No way! The light is powerful enough to heat the water in a controled setting so she said a heater wouldn't be needed. I'll try it out. 

Sadily, I had to return the water conditionar with the tank set, the new one didn't come with conditioner, so I bought a bottle of Prime, which is what the rep told me to switch too when I bought the meds the day before. It's got a slimecoat protection mixed into it. My friend forgot to put the bottle in my bag and had it in his pocket so I'm not able to change Jupitors water tonight. I have some water sitting out that's been sitting since yesterday, is it safe to use it or should I just wait till I have the conditioner. I really want to get him out of this water, I think it's harming more then helping. I'm also not able to add that last fizz tablet now.

As for the fizz tablet I did pick up some AQ salts and got help with the dossage, and a strick warning not to use to much or I'd kill him. She told me NOT to mix AQ with the parasite meds. Since he's had two doses of the Parasite meds and I think they've all fallen off and the bettafix meds, instead of giving him a thrid dose for good messure, I'm going to put AQ salt in the tank tomorrow. That'll be a 48 hr break between treatments that way. I think I only have to use this once.... After that would it be okay to wait 24hrs and if he's doing better, change 100% water, scrub tank down, then use the Epson salt treatment? I don't want to use to much salt back to back or overdose him with treatments. The wonds on his sides are gone, there's only a faint mark left where the worst one was. I medicated for them within two hours so I'm hoping if he did get an infection it's not a serious one. I'm still not convenced he's got internal parasites, it just doesn't feel like the right answer. I'm leaning more towards mild poisoning but not sure from what so maybe it is infection. 

The reps reviewed him today and their convinced it was flukes and that they came from the tap water I put in the tank. AQ salt will help prevent a reacurrance of that correct? Can I use salts with a fliter? She told me to wash the new tank and all things going in it, then to treat it and let it sit up to a week before putting Jupitor in it. She wants me to be sure he's well before transfering him, then to get rid of the stuff in his current tank. I think one of you said something similar above too.

Good news on Jupitor though. He's still mooping about but he did come out of his corner. He's mostly been slowly, casually swimming around the cage then settles near the center of it and just rests. He's waving his fins a bit more then before an he's sitting normally rather then trying to stand in the tank. I've not seen him come to the surface for air as often and he even took a little food a few mins ago! I'd have to say I sence relucatance in him. He's not been itchy at all today! I was able to rise the water temp a little more to about 75 that's the best I can do. I'll try the towel idea once the temp starts to drop in a few hours. He did spread his fins for me before I feed him, I took that as a good sign. I'll let you know how he's doing in a few hours. Thank you both so much for all your advice and assistance. This is one stuborn fish, if anyone can hold out and resist illness it's Jupitor.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I just wanted to say, since Sakura is covering you on the treatment part... you shouldn't add any more fish to a 3.5g than your Betta. Usually you do not add fish to anything under 10g with a Betta. You could do some small snails or some shrimp though. Your Betta doesn't need friends


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I do want to offer a warning: be careful about advice that pet store employees give. Not all pet store employees really know what they are talking about so when in doubt, ask here.

Prime is a great conditioner and is highly recommended all around.  

If you do not see evidence of internal parasites in either his poo (white segments or long white stringy poo) or by seeing red worms protruding from his, er, anus, then I don't think he has them. Overall, I have not heard of mucous-covered poo and not as indicative of any disease at all. I can ask DarkMoon17, this site's resident veterinarian, though.  Therefore, I would recommend treating him for an internal infection.

I don't think tap water carries flukes. He most likely caught them in some other way. In fact, many external parasites are always present on a fish's body. It's only when the fish is stressed and his immune system becomes compromised that the parasites are able to take over. So he may have had a small quantity of flukes all along.

Okay, it sounds like you want to skip further treatment for parasites? In that case, do NOT add AQ salts. Give him one day (24 hrs) of clean water with nothing but water conditioner. Then add 1 tsp per gallon of epsom salts to start with. Change the water every other day and redose the salts. Do this for a week and let's see how he is. If he does not improve or worsens at any point, then we may need to add Mardel Maracyn I and II. 

In a 3.5g tank, change the water twice a week, 50% each time.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks for the advice you two. Jupitor seems to be doing a little better today. I've let him rest for the most part and watched for a distance. He's staying in the open so long as I don't creep up on the cage. My friend is finally on his way over with the prime so I can do a water change. I'll try the 24hrs of clear water with no salt or meds see how he does. Thanks so much everyone! I think he's going to live this time round!


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

He's still alive and seems to be improving. He's responding to his reflection at the bottom of the tank, he's breathing easier, and he even had some dinner. Not as much as I'd like, but it's enough to keep me happy. He's even a little playful when I'm close to the tank, doing a few tricks for me.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yay! I'm glad to hear that.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

Great news! Jupitor seems to be back to his old self. He's swiming about, flashing his fins, eating, and even made a bubble nest this morning! I'm going to set up his new tank tonight and get things ready. Should I put AQ or epson salts in the new tank before I add him? It'll be a day or two before I put him in it after setting it up. Is it okay to get a mini sucker fish for his tank? They don't get more then two inches and get along with betta's i'm told but I don't want to put something in the tank that'll hurt the sucker fish.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If Jupiter is back to normal, he probably doesn't need any kind of salts at all. How big is his tank again? And by sucker fish, do you mean an otocinclus catfish?


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

*Jupitor lives!*

Sorry for the long delay between posts. I've started back to school and I've had some serious trojin invasions on my computers that have taken some time to clear. I had to restore my systems and lost all track of my login information for this board. 

I'd like to give everyone an update on Jupitor and thank them again for all their wonderful advise and for taking an interest in my fish. It was an amazing recovery...from what I can remember, once my friend gave me the prime, I waited till morning, then changed Jupitors water in his little cage. I let it sit for 24hrs with no treatments. I was going to do a salt treatment because I felt I'd somehow overloaded his system with meds in the short time that I'd had him and didn't want to make him more ill. However, I never got around to using the salts. By the following day, he was perfect again! He was hungry, active, and looked healthy. By miday, he'd created a bubble nest the size of his cage. I had so many bubbles I could hardly see him. I took some pictures.

He's been really happy ever since. I got his new aquairum set up, it's a 3.5 gal. He's the only one in it, I decided against adding others as advised, and against snails because of future salt treatments that might be needed. For the time anyway. 

....sorry will have to finish this later.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm very glad he's doing much better and I'm also sorry about your computer virus problem. Hope you were able to get that cleared up.


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## Zorra (Dec 30, 2011)

Sorry about running off there. I'm back now.

Jupitor is now in a new 3.5 aquarium that is flat in back and rounded in front, like a half moon. It came with a small fliter that sits inside the cage, problem is, the water jet is three holes and while it has a flap that comes down to ease the pressure, there's still a mess of water hitting the side and splattering everywhere (it's what came with it but I don't recomend it). The current is to strong and tires Jupitor out, he hides behind his new fake plants at the bottom of the cage normally or tucks himself near the surface by the temonitor. 

I found a new filter at the store the other day, it's the same size but it's got an adjustable jet stream also the option of holes or a waterfall. I think he'd be happier with a waterfall if it's going to come out so forcefully. I'm a bit upset because these small filters only reach about half way down the aquarium and don't really suck up the messes at the bottom. I'm not sure the new filter will fit in my aquarium, I'm unable to cut further into the lid, and it looks like I'd have to put two inches less water in the tank and that's not really an option I want to go with. Defeats the purpose of getting this size, plus with the lid and where it's located, you'd never see the fish, and I'd have to remove the tall plants which protect him from the cat's eyes. I'll give it a try when I do his water change next.

He's been very happy in the cage. It's got a light but unlike the 10gal we tryed, this light doesn't provide extreme heat to his water and can be left on when it's dark. I don't think the lights are very useful, he's the wrong color, the rocks are wrong, and it so things look dark or dim making it hard to see him if he's not right at the front. Unable to find a stand I had to place him on the floor, the temp was in the 70s until last week. The air is much cooler and even with wrapping a towel around the cage and my plant stand over it to keep the cats from removing the lid, he was going into shock from the cold. His cage dropped from 83 to 60 degress in two hours right after I'd done a water change. I had to get a heater after all. But I found this great one at walmart for $15 and it's completely submersible. So I have it sitting near the bottom of the aquarium and it's automated. His water is steady at about 76 degress.

Between the larger swimming enviornment and the steady tempatures, he's not fallen into a relapse. He seems stressed from the current so I sometimes turn off the filter for a few hours to let him play and rest. But no parasites, itching, or bleeding. He's eating better, I think I'm giving him a better mixture of the flakes then before because I tend to put more into his water when the filter is going since he's having trouble chasing it. 

It may just be the angle of the glass but his tail looks smaller to me. But it's shape hasn't changed, there's no sign of bitting or obvious rot wounds. I do see a thin dark shadow that runs from the top of the fin to the bottom but I think he's always had that. His normal tail pattern is the same curves where the fin ends. Also, that white line I was seeing around his eyes disapeared about three days after I stopped treating his water. I plan to clean the water in a day or two so I'll get a better look at him in his little cage. 

I've got pictures I took of him to post, but my phones not letting me retreave them due to some software issues but I'll try to get them posted soon. Thanks again for all the help. I think we'll be out of the danger zone for a while.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. It's not necessary to filter the tank if it's too turbulent for Jupitor. You're right that the kind of filter return that cascades down in a waterflow is a lot easier on bettas but it can still get pretty strong. You might look at getting an internal filter. 

These work well:








They are the Penn Plax Smallworld Filter. They stick to the inside of the tank and are hooked up to an airpump outside that drives air through the filter media.
This also works using an air pump as well:








This is the Penn Plax The Bubbler Bottom Filter. You put carbon in the bottom and a bit of filter wool (optional) over that.

You can also try internal filters like the Marineland Duetto 50 or the Marina Internal Filter. Tetra also makes an internal filter that may be suitable. These all just stick on the inside of the tank at the back so you don't have to worry about trying to cut out a hole for a filter that hangs on the back.


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