# Breeding - number of fry, ratio of males vs. female & more - come read & contribute



## RedRunner (Oct 4, 2014)

*Breeding - number of fry, ratio of males vs. female & more - come read & contribute*

I got to thank the mods for deleting the previous messages they were a bit disjointed. 

Anyways for my own & others' future reference I decided to so something of a survey breakdown based on people's responses to these questions. 


The reason behind this concept is because as a kid my grandparents [from Thailand] brought wild type fish that my brother and I spawned. Of that spawn even after culling (proper culling, had bred guppies and other easy fish beforehand) we still had about 300 fry. 


For those that want to remain utterly anonymous there is this survey done to the same idea as below 

*http://bit.ly/1nez7qX*

The link above has a few more questions than here but would be welcomed for information. If you partake in the more advanced survey, the results will be shared as well after X days [undecided, depends on turn out]. 


So 


*Question 1*

What is your average number of fry that got to the sub-adult / jarring age for the last 12 months only.

How to calculate average

_Example _
Spawn #1 = 121 fry
Spawn #2 = 23 fry
Spawn #3 = 56 fry

121 + 23 + 56 = 200 fry divided by 3 equals about 66.7 or 67 fry for the last twelve months. 


There is also a poll question for this if you just want to stay on the forums. 




*Question 2*

What is your ratio of male fry vs. female fry at the sub adult / jarring age for the last 12 months

Example
Spawn #1 - 2 males / 3 females
Spawn #2 - 2 males / 1 female
Spawn #3 - 1 male / 2 female

Equals 

2 + 2 + 1 = 5 males 
3 + 2 + 1 = 6 females

Or 5 males for every 6 females. 


There is also a poll option for this separated from number of fry by the DO NOT VOTE ON ME option. 




*Question 3*

How often have you spawned in the last 12 months. If more than once per year for a fish, indicate. 



Question 4

What are you breeding color & fin wise. 

Why?

Melano is infertile for females - is there another color which may equal less than average fry [low fertility] 

Fin type - with guppies for example long extreme fins = less fertility cause the males can't keep up. So for the same reason to ask here.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

*Subscribing*


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Question 4

*What are you breeding color & fin wise.*
I am breeding for VT, by crossing HM to VT to improve form and color.
I am breeding...well, I thought I was breeding for melano, but apparently the male I bought is super black and carrying marble. So. We'll see what happens?

*Why?*
VT is my favorite. Black is my favorite. Match made in heaven.
I'd like to be a part of the movement to create beautiful VT and bring them to show in the variations class, so that we can eventually have a VT standard in Area 1. This is a project that I fully expect to take many years.

*Melano is infertile for females - is there another color which may equal less than average fry [low fertility] *
- I have been informed that melano females with heavy irids are usually fertile, they are not pure melano and don't have that problem, but the heavy irids are undesirable for show
- I have heard of big problems with fry survival rates breeding koi to koi, but these are anecdotal. I am unaware of any specific testing and observation.
- Breeding small male to large female can cause problems, because the male may not be able to wrap properly.

Fin type - with guppies for example long extreme fins = less fertility cause the males can't keep up. So for the same reason to ask here.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Does "used to" count? I haven't bred in the last 2+ months.

1. I can't say "average". I'm breeding super blacks which are apparently weaker than others I've bred. Further, care also plays a big role.

Other colors: average 200-300 if cared for properly. 20-150 if I rely on nature (I don't feed daily).
Black: 0-20 with what ever care.

2. Sex ratio depends on what season I breed.
Hot season: 
First 3 spawn (female) = mostly males (about 90% males). 
More than 3 spawns (female) = ave. 40-60% male. Sometimes lower (30%)

Wet season:
First 3 spawn (female) = 40-60% males. Sometimes lower
More than 3 spawn (female) = 10-40% male

TBH, I seldom really pay much attention to sex outcome. Only extreme ratios are noticed. But out of all the spawns I ever noticed (usually due to some sort of disappointment) through the years, these were more or less the results.

3. Lost count. . . . I may breed 2-5 pairs weekly depending on previous results and my goals at the time. I didn't breed much this year nor did I produce enough. If I had to use number . . . maybe only 20 (max) from March to June. Most of them failed. 

When attempting to create something, I may breed 20-30 pairs in two months (1 pair might be bred several times for 4-5 weeks). . . . I cull hard and/or rehome early.

4. I wanted to work for Super Black Giants. But it seems harder than I expected. After 2 yrs, I'm nowhere near my goal. It's very challenging - getting Super blacks in regular size is hard enough. Getting them larger than usual is even harder.

I have never seen a Super Black with perfect/close to perfect fins. Most come in poor form. This is another challenge in itself. Another challenge I didn't expect is the fact that they are genetically weaker (so it seems) than others. Only very few, if any, survive to adult. . . . . Not sure why. I know other breeders who can produce hundreds per spawn.

Due to my circumstances, I may give up everything. . . . By giving up I mean not trying to create anything new and just breed 1-2 pairs every month or two. . . . I can never totally give up on bettas.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Thats interesting, I would have expected a higher female:male. Does mean I will need plenty of jars though. o.o

ETA: Any idea from talking to other breeders if that seasonal ratio reflects in the UK? We have, usually, less drastic seasonal change than some/most of the US


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

It's basically temp and pH. The higher, the more males. Not sure about air pressure (season).
The first 3 spawns (female) is more myth than anything. But it is strongly held by many breeders, including myself, and would make breeders cull their females after the 3rd spawn.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I haven't heard of anything regarding number of spawns of the females. What are you referring to?


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Ah... I have high ph naturally. Good in that males are more valuable in the end. Just need more jars. XD


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

hrutan said:


> I haven't heard of anything regarding number of spawns of the females. What are you referring to?


The female's first 3 spawns produces more males than females. After that she produces less and less males. Add temp and pH to the equation, you could manipulate sex ratio.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Interesting.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Extremely. Would it matter how far apart her spawns were? Or is that over her lifetime?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I never really paid much attention to spawn interval - specially for the last few yrs. If not badly beaten, I may spawn a female weekly. In the past, I would only breed every month or two - just enough to keep my collection going.

TBH, I am beginning to doubt this myth because I've produced about 90% males after female's 3rd spawn. In fact I currently have a 90%+ male from a fourth spawn during dry season. But most of the time I would only get 40-50% males.

BTW, my ph ranges between 8-8.5. I never tamper with pH nor do I use IAL or meds/chemicals. My temp can change from 25C to 29C in wet and dry seasons. My bettas are outside, most under a shade so temps can fluctuate (no heater), specially in tubs that get direct sunlight/rain.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Oh hey, not to derail but quick question about breeding in outdoor tubs -

I want to try this some time, but I'm in a desert/Mediterranean type climate and it gets hot in my area. Really, _really _hot, up to and sometimes exceeding 43C in the summer. Is it even possible for me?


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

indjo said:


> I never really paid much attention to spawn interval - specially for the last few yrs. If not badly beaten, I may spawn a female weekly. In the past, I would only breed every month or two - just enough to keep my collection going.
> 
> TBH, I am beginning to doubt this myth because I've produced about 90% males after female's 3rd spawn. In fact I currently have a 90%+ male from a fourth spawn during dry season. But most of the time I would only get 40-50% males.
> 
> BTW, my ph ranges between 8-8.5. I never tamper with pH nor do I use IAL or meds/chemicals. My temp can change from 25C to 29C in wet and dry seasons. My bettas are outside, most under a shade so temps can fluctuate (no heater), specially in tubs that get direct sunlight/rain.


Nice to have a vague idea. And I know now to expect higher numbers of males. XD And good to know I do not need to drag the PH down for the breeding tanks. I sit around 8.2 out of the tap, and havent yet got any IAL, though I have been popping oak leaves in to see if it helps the fish.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

hrutan said:


> Oh hey, not to derail but quick question about breeding in outdoor tubs -
> 
> I want to try this some time, but I'm in a desert/Mediterranean type climate and it gets hot in my area. Really, _really _hot, up to and sometimes exceeding 43C in the summer. Is it even possible for me?


Wow . . . here it ave 38. Only during droughts (like now) it reaches a scorching 40. I can't imagine what 43 feels like.

In the past my tubs were totally covered with water lettuces. It kept water cooler. But it was very difficult to see fry development. Nowadays I double cover short tubs and single cover tall ones. Not sure what temp it is at midday but in the late afternoon it's about 28C (both tubs).

Unless you can keep temp around 28-29 (ave) I doubt your bettas could survive. Maybe by keeping tall tubs under a shade might help. Deeper water tends to hold cooler water near the floor - where bettas can cool off during hot days.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

The scary part is, I don't even live in the hottest part of our valley. Some of my friends saw temperatures of 49 this summer. mg:

At some point, I'll have to look up the regulations for ponds. Maybe by digging underground I can reach temperatures that are survivable.


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