# Dog Training Question - High Prey Drive



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Hi, this is kind of a random post. So one of my dogs Mocha, is a female Shiba Inu mix adopted from Korea, and brought to Canada. She has gone through many owners before we adopted her. She is 4 years old, and she k1lls chickens, and small animals. She also bit one of my baby goats, which is a big problem. 

How can we train her not to? Like chasing would fine, but biting and k1lling them isn't ok. How can I train her to do this? I understand about positive reinforcement but she doesnt even come when called. She was 1.5 when we adopted her and she only knew how to sit and paw. Then she was not trained to do anything else. The old owners named her, and we expected her to know her name like our other dog. If you call her, she will run even further off leash. 

Any tips on how to train her and like do positive reinforcement?

Thanks, 
Emily


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

See a local trainer. I hate these online "experts" who, without seeing the dog, tell you how to train. As a retired dog trainer/behaviorist I cleaned up after several experiments gone wrong.

BTW, we may think chasing is okay but to a dog it is prelude to a kill.


----------



## Seqathe (Apr 17, 2021)

Yes please see a trainer. I agree 100%. A family friend is professionally training K9s and other local dogs where I live, and has always said that so many issues can be prevented and/or corrected if the owner can get professional aide sooner rather than later. There is a lot of good information on how to work with your dog online; but whenever you see situations that can become dangerous if left unchecked, the best thing is to contact a professional who can see the dog and its environment in person.

Good luck - and props for adopting a pup! There are so many sorely in need of good homes❤


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> See a local trainer. I hate these online "experts" who, without seeing the dog, tell you how to train. As a retired dog trainer/behaviorist I cleaned up after several experiments gone wrong.
> 
> BTW, we may think chasing is okay but to a dog it is prelude to a kill.


Unfortunately all dog trainers are closed. Once my entire family is vaccinated, we might be able to contact a trainer, but a family member is doing chemo right now so training might need to wait. Will a muzzle work temporarily? She lunges sometimes.


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Seqathe said:


> Yes please see a trainer. I agree 100%. A family friend is professionally training K9s and other local dogs where I live, and has always said that so many issues can be prevented and/or corrected if the owner can get professional aide sooner rather than later. There is a lot of good information on how to work with your dog online; but whenever you see situations that can become dangerous if left unchecked, the best thing is to contact a professional who can see the dog and its environment in person.
> 
> Good luck - and props for adopting a pup! There are so many sorely in need of good homes❤


Thanks for the information! I will ask my parents if we can take her asap!


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Ok I asked my parents and they said that trainers wont do anything -_-
Like we brought our first dog to a trainer and he is pretty good with things, but he will still chase animals.


----------



## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Hi, knowing already that you are unable to take your dog to a trainer, I am not even going to suggest it.
The fact you are interested in positive based methods is amazing to hear!

Unfortunately there is a whole list of myths surrounding it. When used correctly by people who know how it works, the results and bond to form with your dog is truly special!

I am not a certified dog trainer, just a person with dogs who had problems I helped fix myself, though hours and hours and hours of time and learning.

That leaves you as the one to work with her. Many people owner train their dogs, it just takes time, patience, and dedication for you to learn.

I think the best thing to do first would be to separate her from the chickens and baby goats. Both animals are very fragile. Keeping your animals safe is top priority.

Even if she went after the chickens or baby goat trying to play roughly ( I do not think this was the case ) just the rough play could be enough to kill the chickens and seriously harm the goat.

You said she has very little training and you truly do need to work on the basics with her first. 

The basics will be the stepping stone to counter conditioning around other animals (around not in with ). I must warn you though, it takes commitment and a lot of hard work. Even if she gets to the point I will mention in a bit, you may not like what advice I give.
If you can help her get to a point where she can ignore them when she is near their pen area (them safely away) that will be a good start! However to get to that point you must first work with her away from distractions on basic cues. 

You may even be able to get her to no longer lunge or pay any mind to them when walking by them with you on a leash or long line eventually.
However, you have to put the safety of your other animals as your priority, so letting her off leash with chickens again is not be the best decision, regardless if she no longer reacts in these other circumstances.

I have a dog whom no longer reacts on a 200 ft line. He has made incredible progress around squirrels, birds, deer, rabbits, but I will never let him near my cat off leash. I just can not take that chance as in his heart I feel he would still go after her and it is my responsibility to protect them both.
He is learning impulse control now yes and has made leaps and bounds of improvement, but it is too big of a gamble for me.

With some dogs, the thrill is the chase and not the kill. Like my other dog whom would not kill anything. However some dogs enjoy both the chase and the kill, which is their natural instinct.

With some dogs like in the case of Emily from Kikopup. She has amazing results with counter conditioning her dogs around wildlife. One of her terriers used to go crazy around small animals. I will link you to her videos for basic tutorials on cues you need to work on.

Her counter conditioning protocol is crucial for teaching recall. Instead of learning to call the dog away from distractions, she works to make those distractions unimportant stimuli in the environment.
I would get a long recall leash to have on hand as well as a regular leash to work with her on in the beginning, again if we can just teach her basic cues and get her to a point she can ignore them when separated you will have already made a lot of progress.

The key is to find what she is motivated by. Food is always a great start. I have a suspicion she would be highly motivated by toys when dragged backwards to get her interest. A flirt pole for dogs (it is just a pole with a fluffy animal toy on the end) could be an amazing tool to help teach impulse control when teaching something like "wait" later on and using as a reward. You must of course teach the simplest form of "wait" which is without distractions she wants at first.

What you describe when she runs further when called is called "keep away" this happens when the dog is enjoying what it is doing one day, someone calls her and she comes, but does not reinforce coming with a high value currency and takes her away from what she is enjoying. Next time (or however many times it takes for her to realize it) she is called, but she remembers you have nothing of value for her, so she runs away further.

You can reverse this pattern, but you need to have her on a leash when working with her at first. She is not used to this new idea of you working with her, so it will take time.


Since she has had basically no training at all, working with her on puppy basics may be a good way to start. Again though you need to have her in the least distracting place you have available and on a leash or in a small pen area.

Clicker training may be beneficial for you as well. A clicker is just a small metal or plastic box with a button on it. It makes a small click sound when pressed. What you want to do is click and treat click and treat click and treat. Kikopup has tutorials on how to get them to associate the click with a reward coming.


Puppy Training PLAYLIST by KIKOPUP - YouTube

How is it possible to use Positive Reinforcement to train a RELIABLE recall? - YouTube

COME when called with DISTRACTIONS! - come training / recall proofing game - YouTube


Game to Teach the CONCEPT of STAY - Dog Training - YouTube
The easiest, most reliable SIT STAY - sit stay training! sit stay fun! - YouTube

Leave It _NEW version by KIKOPUP_ - YouTube


Why newbies FAIL using TREATS and TOYS to TRAIN DOGS - YouTube

The Calm Settle - for dogs and puppies - YouTube


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Animals15 said:


> Hi, knowing already that you are unable to take your dog to a trainer, I am not even going to suggest it.
> The fact you are interested in positive based methods is amazing to hear!
> 
> Unfortunately there is a whole list of myths surrounding it. When used correctly by people who know how it works, the results and bond to form with your dog is truly special!
> ...


Wow thank you so much for your long reply! I will be trying out the things you've linked, and those are very very helpful! I clicker trained my rabbit, and I used a loud pen which worked well for him. I'm going to start training her ASAP! Again, thank you so so much for all of this information! I really appreciate it! 
Thanks sooo soo much!
- Emily (and Mocha lol)


----------



## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

AlphaBettas said:


> Wow thank you so much for your long reply! I will be trying out the things you've linked, and those are very very helpful! I clicker trained my rabbit, and I used a loud pen which worked well for him. I'm going to start training her ASAP! Again, thank you so so much for all of this information! I really appreciate it!
> Thanks sooo soo much!
> - Emily (and Mocha lol)


Your very welcome!  
I think training with her regardless is a great idea! I think you will enjoy the videos.
She may not ever be allowed IN with them, but that is not such bad thing if it keeps your animals safe. 
I have goats as well. Yes I wish they could be together (my dog and goats) but just settling with him not reacting around their pen is where I am stopping as I said it is also a gamble I am not willing to take the chance. Just like with my cat. 

All this aside, I think you will have fun working with her and your bond will be much closer!! Have fun, be patient, stay enthusiastic and you may be amazed with what she can learn! Dogs are remarkable creatures for sure!! 

Your rabbit sounds very cute!

Happy training!


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Animals15 said:


> Your very welcome!
> I think training with her regardless is a great idea! I think you will enjoy the videos.
> She may not ever be allowed IN with them, but that is not such bad thing if it keeps your animals safe.
> I have goats as well. Yes I wish they could be together (my dog and goats) but just settling with him not reacting around their pen is where I am stopping as I said it is also a gamble I am not willing to take the chance. Just like with my cat.
> ...


Thank you! One of our dogs will chase and bark and sometimes nip them, but wont kill. I will definetely be starting training and watching those videos you linked!


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Your girl is a rescue and you know nothing about her past or why she acts as she does. Added to that she's a Shiba and training them is a challenge in the best of circumstances. I did German Shorthaired Rescue for 25 years and rehabbed 100+ dogs; several of whom had been used as bait dogs for Pitbull fighting. I also helped numerous people with Shiba.

From the animal's point of view, unless reciprocal, chasing is not playing; it's threatening. Remember, too, the origins of the Shiba: They were not bred to be pets; they were bred to flush (chase) and retrieve birds and rabbits. So you are also dealing with an instinct bred into them for over 200 years.

I normally do not feel comfortable giving advice for a dog I've not actually seen. But this exercise is a basic puppy game that is fun and puppies cannot fail. If she is allowed in the house there is a very, very easy way to teach her to come when called; it is never boring and, as noted, failure is not possible. NEVER use the word "come." Not only does it apparently have negative connotations she has learned to ignore it. This worked like a charm with my rescue dogs who were the same. I'd hollered "Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!" so I wouldn't sound angry. I even named one of them "Whoop."  Or, "Yea, Fiona! What a good girl!"

*Step I:*
Have someone hold her while you give her a piece of hot dog or cheese. Turn and walk away. Hide and call her name and use a squeaky. Keep calling her name and saying silly stuff so she learns how to locate you. When she finds you give her another piece of hot dog or cheese. Make a big deal over the fact she found you. Do it twice; that's it. Repeat as many times per day as someone is willing to hold her. This exercise is critical and rewards must be special; never use treats she gets, anyway. That's why only cheese or hot dogs. BTW, the pieces do not need to be large. A thinly-sliced piece of either is good. She's using her nose; not how much lands in her mouth.

Alternate hiding places; never hiding in the same place twice in a row. This usually only take a few sessions.

Plastering yourself against a wall is a way to hide; or behind a door; or in the bathtub; behind a piece of furniture, etc. Be creative.

*Step II:*
When she understands what you want you can stop the holding. A couple of times a day put a ZipLoc with cheese or hot dogs in your pocket. When she leaves the room or you leave the room or she is asleep and you are right there, say her name and praise her until you hear her coming then stop. When she finds you heap on the praise and give her the treat. You want to gradually make it so you only have to say her name and she's up and moving before you say "whoop." Do not stop the food.

After a week, heap on the praise but only give her food every other time. Other members can participate if they wish.

*Step III:*
When she runs to people the minute she hears her name and if you have a fenced area play relay with her. Have a person call her name, whoop, whoop and as soon as she gets to them and has been rewarded, someone else does the same thing until everyone has called her at least once. Do not call her in a pattern. Have one person the designated "pointer." 

In this last, the person how calls her name is ignored they do not give up be keep calling "Shiba, whoop, whoop, whoop" while everyone else ignores her. Make it all a big game.

There's more after that but get to this point and I'll let you know the final steps.

No matter how tempting, never ever "test" her. Never ever give her that chance to fail. Too many people sabotage their dog by not setting a pattern and testing before they are ready. As Animal15 noted, to fix negative behavior takes time, effort and commitment.


----------



## Seqathe (Apr 17, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> so I wouldn't sound angry.


I am not a professional so I don't want to even attempt to advise, but I will say that this is exactly what I was taught when I did training with my English Setter in a puppy class. Even if she did not come to me at first, I _never_ ever had my voice sound anything but super cheery when I called on her. 

I often see people chasing after their dogs who have ran away from them and once the chase is done and they have caught the poor thing, it is subjected to scolding. If I was being yelled at for coming over to someone, that would be the last person I'd want to go to. Perhaps she has had that experience before you got her. So yes - lots of praise and cheer her on when calling! 💕


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Your girl is a rescue and you know nothing about her past or why she acts as she does. Added to that she's a Shiba and training them is a challenge in the best of circumstances. I did German Shorthaired Rescue for 25 years and rehabbed 100+ dogs; several of whom had been used as bait dogs for Pitbull fighting. I also helped numerous people with Shiba.
> 
> From the animal's point of view, unless reciprocal, chasing is not playing; it's threatening. Remember, too, the origins of the Shiba: They were not bred to be pets; they were bred to flush (chase) and retrieve birds and rabbits. So you are also dealing with an instinct bred into them for over 200 years.
> 
> ...


Oh wow thank you so much for the information! I'll be starting this training tonight, and the other training tomorrow and stuff. I'm sorry for typing such a short response to your long informative response! Thank you so so much for the information! Some reason when you call her, she runs even further, but other times she will go straight to you. She will strangle herself to get to something or get somewhere. She leash pulls sooo much I'm scared she will get out of her collar and get hit by a car or something. Thank you so much! 



Seqathe said:


> I am not a professional so I don't want to even attempt to advise, but I will say that this is exactly what I was taught when I did training with my English Setter in a puppy class. Even if she did not come to me at first, I _never_ ever had my voice sound anything but super cheery when I called on her.
> 
> I often see people chasing after their dogs who have ran away from them and once the chase is done and they have caught the poor thing, it is subjected to scolding. If I was being yelled at for coming over to someone, that would be the last person I'd want to go to. Perhaps she has had that experience before you got her. So yes - lots of praise and cheer her on when calling! 💕


Thanks for your response! She usually flinches if I try to pet her from above and she will bite people when she sees them after a few hours. She gets all excited and nips at your legs and stuff. I will train her tonight and more tomorrow after school.


Thanks so so much Seqathe, Russell and Animals15! You guys are very helpful and I'm going to start training Mocha tonight!


----------



## Seqathe (Apr 17, 2021)

AlphaBettas said:


> She usually flinches if I try to pet her from above


Awe, poor pup. I always feel bad for them when they flinch and since she's a rescue, there could be so many reasons for it; including being struck by past owners so that she fears that motion. I am no trainer but I do know that patience will go a long, long way so hang in there! 💕


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Seqathe said:


> Awe, poor pup. I always feel bad for them when they flinch and since she's a rescue, there could be so many reasons for it; including being struck by past owners so that she fears that motion. I am no trainer but I do know that patience will go a long, long way so hang in there! 💕


I know right, it's sad that the owner also chained her up in this warehouse for the entire day and then took her out for like 10 minutes once a day. We've had her for...2 ish years? and she's been improving! She used to be really skinny but now she is a healthy size/weight!


----------



## Seqathe (Apr 17, 2021)

AlphaBettas said:


> I know right, it's sad that the owner also chained her up in this warehouse for the entire day


That just hurts my heart 😢
I am sooo glad she is no longer in that home and instead came to you!


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

When you offer her a dog biscuit treat scratch her under her chin as you give it to her. This won't happen to her but for puppy reference and is often used by dog show handlers: When you pet the puppy only scratch under its chin if it is standing, when it comes to you. This teaches them to approach people with head raised. It also encourages them to look you in the eye.

Don't throw too much at her at once and blow her little Shiba mind. If she were mine, I'd work on the coming to her name-only. Once she is happily greeting you go to other things. That's what I did with my rescues. Leash work, stays, reconditioning came after they saw me as wonderful to be around. I advised my clients they (clients) should master one skill before attempting another.

If she pulls on the leash just stand there. She'll figure out she doesn't get to move when she pulls. It's called "self-correcting." With a dog her age and the breed she is it might take a while. Shiba were bred to be independent and not bred to depend on humans like Goldens and Labs. They are not driven by the need to please nor the need for approval.


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> When you offer her a dog biscuit treat scratch her under her chin as you give it to her. This won't happen to her but for puppy reference and is often used by dog show handlers: When you pet the puppy only scratch under its chin if it is standing, when it comes to you. This teaches them to approach people with head raised. It also encourages them to look you in the eye.


Ok I will try that! Thanks!



RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Don't throw too much at her at once and blow her little Shiba mind. If she were mine, I'd work on the coming to her name-only. Once she is happily greeting you go to other things. That's what I did with my rescues. Leash work, stays, reconditioning came after they saw me as wonderful to be around. I advised my clients they (clients) should master one skill before attempting another.


I will definetely be starting with recall training and coming when called! I'm going to take my time and make sure she gets things right lol.



RussellTheShihTzu said:


> If she pulls on the leash just stand there. She'll figure out she doesn't get to move when she pulls. It's called "self-correcting." With a dog her age and the breed she is it might take a while. Shiba were bred to be independent and not bred to depend on humans like Goldens and Labs. They are not driven by the need to please nor the need for approval.


I've been working on that 
I just hold the leash closer and stand there until she stops pulling. It's working okay right now, but still needs work!

Thanks so much for your reply! I will be taking things slowly to make sure that she learns things one by one!


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

AlphaBettas said:


> Unfortunately all dog trainers are closed. Once my entire family is vaccinated, we might be able to contact a trainer, but a family member is doing chemo right now so training might need to wait. Will a muzzle work temporarily? She lunges sometimes.


I can relate. My brother who is single and deaf is going through chemo and I am going with him to all appts and helping him out. I used to train dogs and show them. Since you have so much on your plate I agree with RTST i would focus on her name and coming to you. This can save her life. And as she said way to many people have gotten their dogs associating their name with getting scolded. We all know if we got scolded when someone bigger than us calls for us we would ran the other way or ignore them also. I have had rescues and puppies scared of their shadow and a friend of mine had a chaser. I used hotdogs cut into tiny pieces microwaved until kinda crunchy. This way they aren’t as greasy and you can use them as training treats. So much cheaper than store bought treats and most dogs will do anything for them. Lol. Some I have tried is the hide and seek method on name calling. This was for showing and dogs that i want to come from anywhere when they heard my voice call their name. I would have one of my kids hold the dog and if outside I would hide behind a tree and call the dog and while on leash my kids would hold the leash and let the dog guide them to me. In house I would go to another room and call the dog no need for leash since in the house and as soon as they found me, they got the hotdogs and a lot of praise.


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Kat50 said:


> I can relate. My brother who is single and deaf is going through chemo and I am going with him to all appts and helping him out. I used to train dogs and show them. Since you have so much on your plate I agree with RTST i would focus on her name and coming to you. This can save her life. And as she said way to many people have gotten their dogs associating their name with getting scolded. We all know if we got scolded when someone bigger than us calls for us we would ran the other way or ignore them also. I have had rescues and puppies scared of their shadow and a friend of mine had a chaser. I used hotdogs cut into tiny pieces microwaved until kinda crunchy. This way they aren’t as greasy and you can use them as training treats. So much cheaper than store bought treats and most dogs will do anything for them. Lol. Some I have tried is the hide and seek method on name calling. This was for showing and dogs that i want to come from anywhere when they heard my voice call their name. I would have one of my kids hold the dog and if outside I would hide behind a tree and call the dog and while on leash my kids would hold the leash and let the dog guide them to me. In house I would go to another room and call the dog no need for leash since in the house and as soon as they found me, they got the hotdogs and a lot of praise.


Thank you so much for your reply! I worked on recall training/coming when called with her for around 5-10 minutes(I had one of my brothers help me). A short and simple training session. I will be working on it again tomorrow, and will be trying to teach her "Down". Her old owner only taught her Sit and Paw. We dont have hotdogs, but we have these chewy stick things for their teeth that they get once in a while. I cut it up into really tiny pieces and they work well as training treats for Mocha. 

I'm also working with her eating habits. She will leave her food and do whatever she wants and then eat a bit. Then she will ignore it and she gets to "eat as she pleases" throughout the day. My family tried taking the food away after 20 minutes but I'm worried about her starving. She also will only eat after pooping in the mornings...

Thank you so so much for your help!!!


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

AlphaBettas said:


> Thank you so much for your reply! I worked on recall training/coming when called with her for around 5-10 minutes(I had one of my brothers help me). A short and simple training session. I will be working on it again tomorrow, and will be trying to teach her "Down". Her old owner only taught her Sit and Paw. We dont have hotdogs, but we have these chewy stick things for their teeth that they get once in a while. I cut it up into really tiny pieces and they work well as training treats for Mocha.
> 
> I'm also working with her eating habits. She will leave her food and do whatever she wants and then eat a bit. Then she will ignore it and she gets to "eat as she pleases" throughout the day. My family tried taking the food away after 20 minutes but I'm worried about her starving. She also will only eat after pooping in the mornings...
> 
> Thank you so so much for your help!!!


One thing you can try is feeding her at certain times of the day. Most dogs will not starve unless they are mourning a loss. But they will learn to eat on a schedule And that also makes it easier to train them. Also some dogs are more playtime motivated than food. All mine was food but I have seen others that rather play than eat. You can do several 3-5 minute sections, that helps them to develop the habit. And they also will start looking for the training sections. Plus this is just me but if she already knows the sit command I would use it on the not chasing. i would spend a few weeks on the recall and add sit with it since she knows that. Then once you have her doing that and can trust her to come everytime then when you see her start to chase recall her and have her sit. It will be much easier than down since that is going to be new. Once she stops the chasing you can work on down after she gets that then whatever else you want her to do. Normally I would teach down after sit just because that way if the dog is loose and heading to traffic you can say down and stay to they don’t get hit. But since you are concerned about her chasing and biting your other animals I would go with what I had said. JMO. i was going to say her bred are very independent and can be very bull headed like terriers but then I saw it was said about their independence. Lol I’m sure as long as you are patient she will do fine. Old dogs can learn new tricks just takes longer sometimes.


----------



## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Kat50 said:


> One thing you can try is feeding her at certain times of the day. Most dogs will not starve unless they are mourning a loss. But they will learn to eat on a schedule And that also makes it easier to train them. Also some dogs are more playtime motivated than food. All mine was food but I have seen others that rather play than eat. You can do several 3-5 minute sections, that helps them to develop the habit. And they also will start looking for the training sections. Plus this is just me but if she already knows the sit command I would use it on the not chasing. i would spend a few weeks on the recall and add sit with it since she knows that. Then once you have her doing that and can trust her to come everytime then when you see her start to chase recall her and have her sit. It will be much easier than down since that is going to be new. Once she stops the chasing you can work on down after she gets that then whatever else you want her to do. Normally I would teach down after sit just because that way if the dog is loose and heading to traffic you can say down and stay to they don’t get hit. But since you are concerned about her chasing and biting your other animals I would go with what I had said. JMO. i was going to say her bred are very independent and can be very bull headed like terriers but then I saw it was said about their independence. Lol I’m sure as long as you are patient she will do fine. Old dogs can learn new tricks just takes longer sometimes.


"Old dogs can learn new tricks just takes longer sometimes"
Whoever said old dogs cant learn new tricks must have never owned one. 
My 11 year old dog picks up on new things super fast just as he used to. He can not run as far and needs more breaks, but his enthusiasm for learning has not changed.

I had a Pitbull terrier mix. He was far from bull headed. He loved learning new things. He was SO food motivated! He could learn a new trick in a day with ease and even respond to a subtle hand signal that should have taken longer for him to figure out. Agility was something he thrived doing.

Every dog is motivated by something that is for sure! Tapping into their prey drive can help as well. I think she will be a star at the hide and seek games because of her prey drive!

Another funny thing regarding toys... some choose one toy they love and ignore the rest. My dog likes a bone like toy but he will not even pick up the same toy of a different color. Before getting the toy he loves we thought he was not toy motivated. I am glad we did not quit trying! He takes the toy to bed with him every night!


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Mocha is free-feeding. We free feed all of our dogs. Some believe it helps prevent bloat from overeating and results in dogs that don't get fat. I can attest to the latter; we've never had a fat dog. I also took my parents' Rat Terrier that weighed 20 pounds when she should have weighed seven. When she figured out food was always available she stopped plowing through it. In three months she was down to eight pounds. 

She may well have been raised free feeding. She's had enough changes already. If it doesn't bother your family I'd leave her be.

Don't overload her little brain box.Just change her world one thing at a time. Down is a submissive action. Until she trusts you it is the last thing you want to teach.


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Kat50 said:


> One thing you can try is feeding her at certain times of the day. Most dogs will not starve unless they are mourning a loss. But they will learn to eat on a schedule And that also makes it easier to train them.


Hi! Thanks for your reply, we already have a schedule for the dogs. Once in the morning at 8 and once in the evening at 5. I did another training session with Mocha yesterday for around 5 minutes, and she did pretty good. She just took her time to come to me.



Kat50 said:


> Once she stops the chasing you can work on down after she gets that then whatever else you want her to do. Normally I would teach down after sit just because that way if the dog is loose and heading to traffic you can say down and stay to they don’t get hit. But since you are concerned about her chasing and biting your other animals I would go with what I had said. JMO. i was going to say her bred are very independent and can be very bull headed like terriers but then I saw it was said about their independence. Lol I’m sure as long as you are patient she will do fine. Old dogs can learn new tricks just takes longer sometimes.


I've tried teaching "down" to her and she just doesnt get it. I've tried what the trainer taught us to do with our other dog, and it's like getting her to sit and stepping on the leash somewhere near the collar, but it doesnt work with Mocha. 



Animals15 said:


> "Old dogs can learn new tricks just takes longer sometimes"
> Whoever said old dogs cant learn new tricks must have never owned one.
> My 11 year old dog picks up on new things super fast just as he used to. He can not run as far and needs more breaks, but his enthusiasm for learning has not changed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply! Our other dog picks things up very fast and is also super food motivated. I swear he eats everything XD



RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Mocha is free-feeding. We free feed all of our dogs. Some believe it helps prevent bloat from overeating and results in dogs that don't get fat. I can attest to the latter; we've never had a fat dog. I also took my parents' Rat Terrier that weighed 20 pounds when she should have weighed seven. When she figured out food was always available she stopped plowing through it. In three months she was down to eight pounds.


Oh thats really interesting! Thanks for your reply! Mocha would free feed at her old place, and she isnt overweight but we are worried about Zippy eating her food. The two of them rarely get into big fights, but sometimes they will fight over food and they would be a huge mess. But it's been almost a year since they fought so we dont really want to risk things.

Also Zippy eats everything even if its always available....so I'm not really sure about this 😅



RussellTheShihTzu said:


> She may well have been raised free feeding. She's had enough changes already. If it doesn't bother your family I'd leave her be.
> 
> Don't overload her little brain box.Just change her world one thing at a time. Down is a submissive action. Until she trusts you it is the last thing you want to teach.


Ok thank you! She was raised free feeding and it has been 3 years and she still refuses to eat all at once...The only problem is that she would go bother Zippy while he's eating and then Zippy sometimes will go try to eat her food.

I'm doing simple training with her right now, like coming when called and stay. She's mastered sit and paw. Her old owner taught her paw.

I attached some pictures of Mocha when I was training her yesterday.


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

Oh there was something else I was going to add. I had a high prey bred. Husky named baby( she thought she was a lap dog) I had to take her on a leash because I couldn’t trust her to run loose. She was a abused rescue And absolutely gorgeous big girl after I got her. So anyways since I couldn’t trust her where I lived since everyone had cats and they all ran loose in the neighborhood I had to go for runs with her to get her bottled up energy out. It also helped curve her drive because she was more calm and really didn’t care as much. I still didnot let her run loose but that also curbed her lunging when on leash. Plus when on leash they don’t have to be at a heal command all the time. I had 2 different leashes on for the more laid back running and the other was my shorter heal leash. Some people disagree with doing this and say you mess them up that way but they will also see which leash you grab and learn from it. But I would only start this after you get her to walk calmly. I never had a problem because my dogs learned the heal command was business and if I didn’t say heal they could walk more relaxed and not right at my side. I’m so glad she has such a caring home now and people who want the best for her.


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Kat50 said:


> Oh there was something else I was going to add. I had a high prey bred. Husky named baby( she thought she was a lap dog) I had to take her on a leash because I couldn’t trust her to run loose. She was a abused rescue And absolutely gorgeous big girl after I got her. So anyways since I couldn’t trust her where I lived since everyone had cats and they all ran loose in the neighborhood I had to go for runs with her to get her bottled up energy out. It also helped curve her drive because she was more calm and really didn’t care as much. I still didnot let her run loose but that also curbed her lunging when on leash. Plus when on leash they don’t have to be at a heal command all the time. I had 2 different leashes on for the more laid back running and the other was my shorter heal leash. Some people disagree with doing this and say you mess them up that way but they will also see which leash you grab and learn from it. But I would only start this after you get her to walk calmly. I never had a problem because my dogs learned the heal command was business and if I didn’t say heal they could walk more relaxed and not right at my side. I’m so glad she has such a caring home now and people who want the best for her.


Thanks for replying! We go on runs with her every day, usually about 20-30 minutes each time. She gets tired after it, and sometimes will ignore the chickens. But then if you get too close to chickens she will try to get them. We have these medium length leashes and I hold the leashes like closer ish so she doesnt get as much space to run, but if we are outside and just playing or something, she gets the entire length of the leash. Sometimes she just stands there and refuses to move if she doesnt want to-


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

AlphaBettas said:


> Hi! Thanks for your reply, we already have a schedule for the dogs. Once in the morning at 8 and once in the evening at 5. I did another training session with Mocha yesterday for around 5 minutes, and she did pretty good. She just took her time to come to me.
> 
> 
> I've tried teaching "down" to her and she just doesnt get it. I've tried what the trainer taught us to do with our other dog, and it's like getting her to sit and stepping on the leash somewhere near the collar, but it doesnt work with Mocha.
> ...


Wow what a beauty. Ok from the pics I see she is a focused girl. That is a great thing. As far as the down goes like RTST said that is a submission state and a lot of dogs get it but dont want to get it. Her sitting is nice and focus. I had a male husky/German Shepard that didn’t like the down position. So what I had to do with him until he decided to do it was I sat down next to him had one treat in my hand let him smell it. Then I would lie down next to him and hold the treat on the ground out in front in my closed hand so he knew it was there and would keep say down. So he has to stretch out to get it or he would get up then sit then he would finally down. He got the treat and plenty of praise but it did finally work where I didn’t have to do the down also. I was also a lot younger than I am now but it did work. who Knows what went through his mind but he was more of a submissive attitude when I would lie down to. Now that I think about it because I was a jun or senior and I was taking a course to be a dog trainer I must have looked pretty weird out in my front yard. Glad I leaved in the country where not a lot of cars went down the road. So anyways you can always try this just to see what happens.


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Kat50 said:


> So what I had to do with him until he decided to do it was I sat down next to him had one treat in my hand let him smell it. Then I would lie down next to him and hold the treat on the ground out in front in my closed hand so he knew it was there and would keep say down. So he has to stretch out to get it or he would get up then sit then he would finally down. He got the treat and plenty of praise but it did finally work where I didn’t have to do the down also.


Oh thats a great idea! I will be trying that tonight! Thanks!

I've tried using Zippy to try to teach her-
Like I would do "Zippy, sit." and "Mocha, sit." then they would both sit. Then I would do "Zippy, down." and he would lie down, then I will ask "Mocha, down." She tried going down but she didnt want to lol. I will try your technique later!


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

AlphaBettas said:


> Oh thats a great idea! I will be trying that tonight! Thanks!
> 
> I've tried using Zippy to try to teach her-
> Like I would do "Zippy, sit." and "Mocha, sit." then they would both sit. Then I would do "Zippy, down." and he would lie down, then I will ask "Mocha, down." She tried going down but she didnt want to lol. I will try your technique later!


My chihuahua I have now won’t sit or down on a hard surface. I have hardwood floors and she wouldn’t do either I first thought she maybe she was stubborn so I took her outside and was doing something in the yard I asked her to sit because she was getting in my way and down she went I then said down and she laid down. Took her back in same thing happened wouldn’t do it laid a towel down and she did both. She is a little prissy but a funny girl at that. Dogs they love to my us go 🤔🤨😱🥰


----------



## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

AlphaBettas said:


> I've tried teaching "down" to her and she just doesnt get it. I've tried what the trainer taught us to do with our other dog, and it's like getting her to sit and stepping on the leash somewhere near the collar, but it doesnt work with Mocha.


 Unfortunately whoever taught you this was most likely not a positive based trainer.
Our goal is to get her to the point where she goes into a down by herself no matter if it takes longer, not because we are stepping on her collar pulling her down to the ground because of pressure on her neck. If you have to force her down she is not learning to do it herself without pressure which is the goal.

She is just now getting used to being trained. Sometimes in training we have to go back to things they are successful at to always end it on a positive note. Keep training sessions enthusiastic and something you both look forward to. She is a beautiful girl with a whole lot of potential! I believe as the bond between you strengthens and the trust, she will be unstoppable in her success!

You an try continuing with the down training but put extra emphasis on come and stay!
I do think luring her down with a treat may be a good option (over time the lure will be smaller and more subtle which turns into the hand signal for down). Have her in a sit first and sit on your knees and let her nose follow the treat or do as Kat said! I would highly suggest if it is working, to say down as she is in the action of it and right after she is down. We want her to realize down is laying down and saying it constantly before the action may confuse things (she does not know the word down so we are working to get her to associate the word with action) but that is just my take on it, maybe it would not confuse things. This is just what I have been taught.

Another option is capturing a down. This is simply where you have the rewards ready and if you see her laying down on her own throughout the day you can walk over calmly and say down and reward.
This is similar to capturing calmness where you would simply quietly without words place a piece of their food between their paws and walk away so at random times they will be rewarded for calm behavior in the house.

There are a few other ways that can work but I feel she is not trusting enough for them yet.

All this being said, "come" and "stay" are the ones that can save her life someday so focusing heavily on them is probably the best. Other things can come later!

She sure is a great looking dog. I believe she is intelligent and has great potential! I am glad your other training sessions are going well!!


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Animals15 said:


> Unfortunately whoever taught you this was most likely not a positive based trainer.
> Our goal is to get her to the point where she goes into a down by herself no matter if it takes longer, not because we are stepping on her collar pulling her down to the ground because of pressure on her neck. If you have to force her down she is not learning to do it herself without pressure which is the goal.
> 
> She is just now getting used to being trained. Sometimes in training we have to go back to things they are successful at to always end it on a positive note. Keep training sessions enthusiastic and something you both look forward to. She is a beautiful girl with a whole lot of potential! I believe as the bond between you strengthens and the trust, she will be unstoppable in her success!
> ...


Thank you for your reply! I've tried "capturing" a down once and it didnt work...I'll be trying it again and also trying Kat said!


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

As I noted, down is a very submissive position; that is why a lot of rescue and dominant dogs resist. It's not that they don't _want_ to down or are disobeying; it's that they _can_ down either for lack of trust or they fear they can't "escape." It was the very last thing I taught my rescue Shorthairs if I had any doubt. I saw it a lot with the Shorthairs that had been used as bait dogs for Pitties. I had to work around their growing trust in me. They reinforced for me that dogs can be very forgiving.

With rescued dogs you have to work around what you don't know about them and often you have to throw out conventional ways of training and be creative. One thing you can never, ever do is use force.

PS: @Kat50 I don't think dogs are so stupid as to not realize the difference between leashes. And I don't think they are so stupid that differing leashes confuses them.


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> As I noted, down is a very submissive position; that is why a lot of rescue and dominant dogs resist. It's not that they don't _want_ to down or are disobeying; it's that they _can_ down either for lack of trust or they fear they can't "escape." It was the very last thing I taught my rescue Shorthairs if I had any doubt. I saw it a lot with the Shorthairs that had been used as bait dogs for Pitties. I had to work around their growing trust in me. They reinforced for me that dogs can be very forgiving.
> 
> With rescued dogs you have to work around what you don't know about them and often you have to throw out conventional ways of training and be creative. One thing you can never, ever do is use force.
> 
> PS: @Kat50 I don't think dogs are so stupid as to not realize the difference between leashes. And I don't think they are so stupid that differing leashes confuses them.


I didn’t say they are stupid at all. I just know I had different ones and when I grab the one we would go running with the were more excited. I think dogs are smarter than some people I have met. i also never said that they are stupid that certain leashes confuse them at all. If that’s how my post about sorry i won’t post again. I don’t believe animals are stupid I love all animals.


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

I know you and Mocha will do great. Good luck with her..


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

@Kat50 I didn't mean you.  I meant all of those people who claim that dogs are confused if we use two different leashes. Am so sorry for the misunderstanding.

From Post #25:



> Some people disagree with doing this and say you mess them up.....


----------



## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> One thing you can never, ever do is use force.


 I agree with you 100%! Why people use force on their dogs is beyond me! To be honest I was very unsettled to know someone had EVER given advice like given to Alhphabettas for their other dog! It is abusive and uncalled for in my mind!

I just can not get my head around how people could claim to be professional and give owners advice like that. Rescue dogs take so much abuse as you said. 

Enough to bring someone to tears just thinking of what pain they must have been feeling and what fear! They are angels (any dog not just rescues) and deserve to be treated with love, respect, and understanding!

My first dog was abused before we got him as we later figured out. He is a lab/pitbull mix and as we tried to pet him the first time he lowered his head shaking as if he thought we were going to hit him. 

No dog should fear being hit! If someone can not treat an animal with respect and kindness they should not be around animals let alone "own" one. I hate using the word own as well. If anything they own more of us since they own our hearts!
We did not try petting him after that, we simply interacted through play and just sitting in a room with him. He began to trust us quickly. They truly are forgiving!

He is now a dog who adores humans and loves attention. You would never have guessed he was abused!! He is confident now!


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Oh wow thank you guys sooo much for all of the replies!


RussellTheShihTzu said:


> As I noted, down is a very submissive position; that is why a lot of rescue and dominant dogs resist. It's not that they don't _want_ to down or are disobeying; it's that they _can_ down either for lack of trust or they fear they can't "escape." It was the very last thing I taught my rescue Shorthairs if I had any doubt. I saw it a lot with the Shorthairs that had been used as bait dogs for Pitties. I had to work around their growing trust in me. They reinforced for me that dogs can be very forgiving.


I understand now. I wont be working on "down" anymore, just other simple things!



Animals15 said:


> I agree with you 100%! Why people use force on their dogs is beyond me! To be honest I was very unsettled to know someone had EVER given advice like given to Alhphabettas for their other dog! It is abusive and uncalled for in my mind!


We took Zippy to a trainer when he was a puppy. We actually bought him from a breeder instead of adopting, so he isn't like Mocha. This was in like 2013 or 2014, I cant remember, but thats how the trainer taught him. I was like 6 or something so I didnt know....I disagree with that method now.



Animals15 said:


> My first dog was abused before we got him as we later figured out. He is a lab/pitbull mix and as we tried to pet him the first time he lowered his head shaking as if he thought we were going to hit him.


Awh that's upsetting 
When we first got Zippy, he hid behind this table thing and then peed himself. After that, he started crying and whimpering, and I think it's because if he had an accident inside he would "get in trouble".



Kat50 said:


> So I took her. She was so sweet around my sheltie and us. You could tell she was so happy to get away from there into a loving home.


Thats great that you rescued her, she's very lucky to have you!

- We personally dont raw feed our dogs. I mean I understand if other people want to and if they think it's beneficial for their pups, then it's up to them. Everyone's opinions are different! 
Our dogs aren't raw fed because in case Mocha kills a chicken, she might eat it, and associate killing with more food which isn't really what we want. There are other reasons but I support raw feeding AND kibble feeding. As long as they are healthy and happy, it works.



Kat50 said:


> I’m hoping Mocha is doing good and Alphabetta please send me pics of your progress with her. She looks so intelligent.


Thanks! She is doing pretty good, and we are still working on coming when called...she takes a bit longer to get things but she's slowly improving which is great!

Thank you all so much for your help!!


----------



## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

AlphaBettas said:


> Oh wow thank you guys sooo much for all of the replies!
> 
> I understand now. I wont be working on "down" anymore, just other simple things!
> 
> ...


I dont know if you are doing this or not. But you can use the long lead and with your treats or whatever you are using for rewards and call her in a high happy voice while quickly going backwards so she is not just coming to you and stopping but she has to come to you while moving. Give her a reward have her sit and since she may or may not know stay have someone hold her and do it again a few more times. This way she may come a little quicker. also By facing her you are not really teaching her to chase just move quicker because you aren’t running just moving backwards instead of just standing. It doesn’t take long for them to get the moving quicker part and then you can do the standing still again. When she comes quicker. It just a thought since you said she is taking her good old time and this is also making recall fun for her not just a command. I have used it on my husky girl that was I‘ll get there when I get there. There a lot I was to sniff and look at before I get to you. Lol


----------



## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

Kat50 said:


> I dont know if you are doing this or not. But you can use the long lead and with your treats or whatever you are using for rewards and call her in a high happy voice while quickly going backwards so she is not just coming to you and stopping but she has to come to you while moving. Give her a reward have her sit and since she may or may not know stay have someone hold her and do it again a few more times. This way she may come a little quicker. also By facing her you are not really teaching her to chase just move quicker because you aren’t running just moving backwards instead of just standing. It doesn’t take long for them to get the moving quicker part and then you can do the standing still again. When she comes quicker. It just a thought since you said she is taking her good old time and this is also making recall fun for her not just a command. I have used it on my husky girl that was I‘ll get there when I get there. There a lot I was to sniff and look at before I get to you. Lol


Hi! Thanks for your reply. We don't have a long lead so I just used a long rope and attached a dog clip thing to one end. Thanks for your help, I will try that again later!!


----------



## Pococop (Nov 30, 2020)

At this age, starting training will be very problematic. It is common to start training a dog at an early age because it is easiest for both the dog and the owner. However, if it is really necessary, age does not matter. To enjoy being involved in the training process, you need to get the dog interested in it. Every correct command should be rewarded with a treat and praise. This way, the dog will associate it with the action performed.


----------

