# Some betta breeders are HORRIBLE...not for the faint heart



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Note I said SOME.
Anyhow, I had "friended" some breeders on FB and I now see the horrors of how they over breed and don't care for these beautiful fish.

The pictures say it all....
























































































































































I am not sure what is in those jars.....



































































































You get the jest....
I see so much dirty water, improper care, over breeding, etc, etc
I cant even tell if the above picture has dead or live bettas. Either way, if their dead, thats alot of dead bettas at once and if their live.....:evil:


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

eep. This cannot possibly be in Canada or USA? 
Also, the pics were bad but the drowned rat actually frightened me!! I totally did NOT expect that! lol..or not "lol" bc there's nothing funny about it. 
This is the industry created by people looking to make a buck bc of the high demand. Any of us who has saved bettas from the pet store is supporting this.. I'm guilty of it.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

For the most part I see just an average Asian betta farm. The rat and dead fish aren't acceptable. The fish is in a spawning bowl (Thai method breeding) so she may have been killed by the male. The rat... IDK. 

Sometimes fish need to be out of water to get a better view of their fins. 

The large amount of fish in the small containers could be going to grow out. If I can't fit my spawn tub in the grow out I cram 20-30 juveniles in a betta cup and float them in the grow out for a few hours. However those fish appear to have rot/malnutrition issues. 

So I really only have complaints about those pictures with the rat and dead fish and possibly sick juveniles.

The fish with barely any water could be getting a water change since with young bettas you need to remove a lot of water to keep stunting hormones under control.

Betta breeders in Asia are much different than how we are here their fish are of OK quality but their crowntails are nice.

Again I have no idea who they are and probably will never buy from them.


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Asia or not, the living conditions are horrible. Whens the last time anyone has changed the waters?? There all a disgusting color.

Another thing, why would you "cram" fish like that? They deserve to have living space of their own. Just like we do.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

The water has almond leaf in it. My tanks are the same color with lots of water changes every week. 

Also it's easier for me to acclimate them in one small container than in their old home. Why? Because I don't want stunting hormone going in my tanks where I'll have to worry about it enough. 

My fish are housed in 1/2 gallon jars until I get my sump and drip system up. Even then they'll be in jars. It's IMPOSSIBLE to house bettas in 3 gallon tanks with filters and heaters when you breed.


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## Sheldon31 (Mar 21, 2012)

It looks horrific. The rat upset me


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

I also don't see a problem with these pictures. You're bound to have deaths with that many fish. It's impossible not to. Aisan breeders take very good care of their fish. They do (almost) daily water changes. The survival of most of these breeders depends on the survival of their fish. The people who do this kind of mass breeding rely on the profits from their fish, almost completely, to live off of. 
Be reminded that Asian culture and society is much different from our own.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Keep in mind most Asian set ups are out doors and wild animals can easily enter the ponds or tanks.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

okay the water looks like that because the breeder is using indain almond leafs, the rat i have no idea. that is the thai way of breeding betta's. since thail land is somewhat a poor country like part of the Philippines, am saying part of it, and they use there containers and all. i could be totally wrong though.
and all breeders (large breeders) have bettas in 1 gallon jars because they can't take care of each fish in 10 or 5 gals. and they keep them outdoors for the fry to have mosquito larvae, infusoria, etc


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes. I agree with IAL. That brown water is much better than crystal clear water for betta. also none of the tanks have heaters since it is warm enough for betta outside in Thailand. 
I know breeders also put them in the smaller containers because it helps the fins grow out faster. 
I doubt they are a top aquabid farm, probably just sell fish more locally.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

and we have to thank thailand to, for giving us betta's
ALSO i remembered there a third world country (not the whole country, i think), i loose my words lol


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Btw about the rat, it probably just fell in and drowned. I would have taken a photo too, haha. Probably wouldn't have put it on my fb though


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Olympia said:


> Btw about the rat, it probably just fell in and drowned. I would have taken a photo too, haha. Probably wouldn't have put it on my fb though


Yeaaahhh. The rat's a little much.  

Betta Lover 1507: I wouldn't say that Thailand is a 3rd world country. They actually do have quite a lot of technology there. I'd say it's more of a developing country. But aren't we all?


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

I am in NO way a breeder, but I too only had exception with a few pics, like the rat, but that was mostly an instinctual reflex. After MrV mentioned the outside breeding that's frequently done then it's almost to be expected.

I use Rooibos tea in my two little tanks and I had a laugh when my friend came over and was grossed out by the water's tea-brown color. Personally I have grown to like the look and my boys seem happy.

Unless you go to a breeder's home or can truly understand what you're seeing in a picture, and *then* see something that ranks as true cruelty, then you're only making assumptions, and we know what that does, right?


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

I actually contacted the breeder and asked why the water was that color
Why there were bettas crammed into that jar
Why there were no heaters
And why the bettas in the bucket had little to none water

He actually blew up on me and said I was just some worthless child and told me to leave him alone. My reaction: 

So to me it just looked like horrible living conditions and the breeder was defending his neglectful ways.

Thank you for explaining everything.


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

I will say though, that poor fish looks a little miffed by the rat too. Like, what are *you* doing in here?!?!?


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

FishyFishy89 said:


> I actually contacted the breeder and asked why the water was that color
> Why there were bettas crammed into that jar
> Why there were no heaters
> And why the bettas in the bucket had little to none water
> ...


That's unfortunate he reacted that way, but try to have an open mind. He may be a jerk who abuses animals. Or, maybe he's just somebody who is doing something to provide for his family and you come along, someone who he probably see's as a wealthy Westerner who's attacking him for the way he makes him living.

Misunderstanding and mis-perception can run both ways.

Just because we don't understand something doesn't make it truly wrong or evil; sometimes it's just different than what we're used to.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

LOL, a little harsh, I think 
I'm sure the fish are how they make most of their living though, so I doubt they're in too bad of care.


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

sparkyjoe said:


> I will say though, that poor fish looks a little miffed by the rat too. Like, what are *you* doing in here?!?!?


Lol
What killed the rat tho???
It looks like he tried to go for a swim. But instead kicked the bucket.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Probably couldn't climb up the slippery surface, tired out and drowned. :/


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

sparkyjoe said:


> That's unfortunate he reacted that way, but try to have an open mind. He may be a jerk who abuses animals. Or, maybe he's just somebody who is doing something to provide for his family and you come along, someone who he probably see's as a wealthy Westerner who's attacking him for the way he makes him living.
> 
> Misunderstanding and mis-perception can run both ways.
> 
> Just because we don't understand something doesn't make it truly wrong or evil; sometimes it's just different than what we're used to.


True
I don't come in contact with those outside the USA often. So usually I don't keep in mind what could be different there.


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

FishyFishy89 said:


> I actually contacted the breeder and asked why the water was that color
> Why there were bettas crammed into that jar
> Why there were no heaters
> And why the bettas in the bucket had little to none water
> ...


I'd imagine if I got an email going "why this why that why did you do it that way" I'd get defensive too. All of those questions in this quote could have been answered with research instead of "correcting" the breeder.


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## plakatkhmer (Mar 18, 2012)

Those bettas that is in the bucket are not dead. They're just checking the fins.


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## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

styggian said:


> I'd imagine if I got an email going "why this why that why did you do it that way" I'd get defensive too. All of those questions in this quote could have been answered with research instead of "correcting" the breeder.


My thoughts _exactly_. It's already been said in this thread why the water is that color, and info about their jar-keeping and whatnot too.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

styggian said:


> I'd imagine if I got an email going "why this why that why did you do it that way" I'd get defensive too. All of those questions in this quote could have been answered with research instead of "correcting" the breeder.


Yeah, honestly I would have been snarky right back if someone asked me this. Of course I think I'd try to phrase it nicely...but I'd still defend my position on the matter. 

plakatkhmer: Yeah that or doing water changes it looks like. They look like relatively healthy fish.


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Probably couldn't climb up the slippery surface, tired out and drowned. :/


Yeah, rats are actually pretty good swimmers, but everything/one gets tired at some point and it was too deep for him to stand in and breathe for long.

I *kinda* feel sorry for the little ratty, but not really. I've had PET rats in the past, and they were wonderfully cute, smart, and friendly. WILD rats are smart, but that's about where the similarity ends! (Shudder)


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

plakatkhmer said:


> Those bettas that is in the bucket are not dead. They're just checking the fins.


Yeah sometimes that's the only way to get a good look.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yea. Rats are huge pests here too.. We have to kill so many since they ravage our veggie garden.. They eventually learned to avoid traps after seeing their buds dead in em. :/ feeder rats are meh with me too. However pet rats are just so dearly sweet. Sad how they have to be separate in my mind though


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

The rat probably crept in to go "fishing" (rats can fish with their paws) and fell in. He could have been sick or something else could have spooked him into the water. 

Thailand (or wherever this farm is) is naturally very warm!!! The fish don't need heaters!!!! 

I also like the look of IAL. I never _don't_ have it in my tanks!


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I think those unknown jars are food for conditioning. look like they have mosquito larva and other critters in them


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## Tamyu (Mar 17, 2012)

It looks like a pretty decent operation to me...
The rat is awful, but if you have a lot of water outside one is doomed to eventually fall in and drown. All the water looks clean, the size of the individual tanks and bottles seems to be average, and taking the fish out of the water to check them is standard practice even in fish without labyrinths - you see it all the time in goldfish breeding. The tub on the end looked like a good way to separate and check easily.

I am planning a spawn when it is warmer (there is no way to heat the number of smaller tanks that would be needed, but it will be naturally the right temperatures from around May to October) and am collecting similar jars and containers when I spot them for cheap. I will also probably have them outside - high humidity nights that stay above 25C, ah the joys of summer in Asia. :-D


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Poor rat. 

My only problem with it is that some of the juveniles looked a bit unhealthy. I saw some torn fins and very dead-looking females too. 

The actual breeding set-up doesn't look too bad to me.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Sounds like that thaity ettas to me. Especially the yelling.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Thaitybettas.


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

dramaqueen said:


> Sounds like that thaity ettas to me. Especially the yelling.


I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was him there would have been a LOT more foul language involved?


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

Any other breeders a little jealous of this set up? A cool wooden room, naturally warm with IAL and large containers for all the fish?  The rat sucks and the juvies in that one bottle look sad, but otherwise I think it looks typical like others have said. I want a fishroom so bad! Considering getting a 2 bedroom so I can have one


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

sparkyjoe said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was him there would have been a LOT more foul language involved?


There was a lot foul language in how he responded to me.
My summary wasn't even the half he said to me.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

I thought Thaitybettas was US based, though?


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

Bombalurina said:


> I thought Thaitybettas was US based, though?


True! Oh, well, just a thought.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

He is. And he spawns in 5 gal. painting tubs from walmart. xD


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## copperarabian (Apr 27, 2011)

Those crowntails in the last photo are really pretty. And I felt bad for some of the young bettas, it looked like they had minor find rot. Other then that it looked pretty good, except the rat of course.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Let me tell you rats are attracted to water like that.

We have rats living in our backyard in the chicken coop. I put a big plastic tub out there I was going to turn into a pond and it filled up with rainwater. In four days, I had collected 4 dead rats out of it. 

I don't know why they kept falling in as I had other sources of water on the ground they could have gotten to. The breeder might have just woken up to find a dead rat floating in the jar. It hasn't been there for too long by the looks of it, so who knows when or how it fell in. I'd assume that's also why there is a cat there.


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

youlovegnats said:


> He is. And he spawns in 5 gal. painting tubs from walmart. xD


That's the ONLY way to spawn bettas, doncha know.:lol:


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## Tamyu (Mar 17, 2012)

Leeniex said:


> That's the ONLY way to spawn bettas, doncha know.:lol:


In Japan, they spawn them in 3.5 gallons, then split the fry into multiple tanks as soon as they are free swimming. :-D

Difference in breeding culture fascinates me to no end.


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## Sheldon31 (Mar 21, 2012)

copperarabian said:


> Those crowntails in the last photo are really pretty. And I felt bad for some of the young bettas, it looked like they had minor find rot. Other then that it looked pretty good, except the rat of course.


I'm sure Minor fin rot and things like white spot etc are fairly common in both breeder, hobbyists and pet owners tanks? It wasn't the set up of the place. I know NOTHING about breeding anything apart from birds so I couldn't comment on that anyway. It was purely the rat that bothered me. I almost cried when we hit a suicidal bunny on the road last night so little critters (wild and infested with mixi and rabies or cute fluffy pets, makes no odds to me) makes me sad. I dunno if I would have taken a picture though, as an unexperienced Betta keeper, it would put me off from buying from him.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I read an article somewhere on how thai breeders do it so the pics don't really surprise me, except for the rat. THAT was disgusting. The article mentioned that most breeders put a male and female in a tiny bowl under an IAL or some other leaf and check them every few days. if the female survived, great..If not, they have plenty others they can use.

I used a 5 gallon storage container to spawn, would of worked too if the male didnt decide to nom nom on his offspring.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Trust me. A small domestic house cat is NO match for wild rats. Cats can keep mice at bay, but rats do not fear a cat. A cat is a playtoy for a naughty rat!


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Leeniex said:


> That's the ONLY way to spawn bettas, doncha know.:lol:


LOL Leeniex!!! xDDD


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## Cinderwolf (Dec 22, 2011)

Laki said:


> Trust me. A small domestic house cat is NO match for wild rats. Cats can keep mice at bay, but rats do not fear a cat. A cat is a playtoy for a naughty rat!


I can attest to that he he he my cats are afraid of my big pound and a half rats. 

Cant say anything to the breeding, but yea the rat made me sad.. mainly cause i adore rats wild or not. but yea I bet he went to get a drink or a fishie snack and slipped in. Rats have a hard time climbing slippery things ( mine cant get out of a wet sink without a big leap he he he)

I agree beautiful ct.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I just had a mental image of my rat boys trying to hop out of the tub during wash time... poor things lol They really can't climb a slippery surface.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

bowls and cups/jars are okay when you have a large spa---aaaaahhh a dead rat? :shock: uuhhhhhh eew,

I never knew small spaces made better fins??? @ Olympia. I've found fish grow fast with larger spaces =D dunno about fins.


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## PhilipPhish (Mar 6, 2011)

That is aweful! 

Bettas live in shallow water, but not that shallow of water!
The rat in the jar made me gag!

Those poor babies!

The CTs in the last picture are so beautiful! Its a shame they are in such a bad place!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

As I said before, if we want the bettas we have to accept that some come from places like this. Also, my Ludey comes from Malaysia/Singapore and he's a big strong healthy boy. So was Lakitu, who also came from Malay/Singa.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

PhilipPhish said:


> That is aweful!
> 
> Bettas live in shallow water, but not that shallow of water!
> The rat in the jar made me gag!
> ...


These types of responses is why I don't like threads like these... 

We need to understand that: This is a different country, the breeder is most likely doing this as their main job, and that they breed outside. 
As Americans, I feel on a whole, that most of us simply don't understand other cultures because we can't see past our differences or because the gap is so wide. We need to look at ourselves (and others) from an outsiders perspective, not just own own mindset. We aren't the only country in the world. 

@PhillipPish: It was said that these fish were either being checked for fins or getting a water change. They don't actually LIVE in that shallow of water.


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## PhilipPhish (Mar 6, 2011)

oh... I guess I should read stuff! lol! I just looked at the pictures. My bad! sorry guys.

I do understand that all cultures are different and that people from Asia have different methods of breeding their fish than some of us in America.

I've seen rather beautiful bettas come from Asian countries. I'm not saying I have anything against the Thai way of breeding and caring for bettas, it probably works better than the American way.

I'm not he brightest bulb in the box. Sorry if I caused any disruption with my lack of ability to read things.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

have none of ya'll seen a Thai breeder's setup?

the water's not dirty. it's dyed with tannins from IAL
they're bred outside. kept outside. it's understandable that things like rats get in. :I it was probably removed right away and the water changed
breeders keep their bettas in jars. they can't house each betta in a 2 gallon tank, ya know.
the growouts are usually little more than barrels, jars, or whatever large container they can find.

other than the dead fish, the rat, and the possibly sick babies, i see NOTHING wrong with those pics. :I you don't know the full story, so you cannot judge the conditions


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I'm not judging  I just saw the rat. eew.. xDD And like I noted, jars and bowls are actually fine...not like they can keep bettas in glorious thousand gallons of shallow pond. Who here, that breeds, keeps their spawns ALL in 5 gallons each for males and 10+ for sorority females? >.> I don't think any do. If you do, whoa =D xD I would use jars. I can get nicely sized jars for cheap, a dozen for a small price. I'm going to start breeding again in summer-ish time, and I'll use jars. and "dirty" (aka non-dirty, but lovely tannin water!!!) water  Tannins are awesome. great for nest making too =D


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

:I

some breeders DO keep all their females in a giant sorority. i know Chard keeps alot of females together.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

that would be cool xD lol I'm going to have a 40 gallon, I might use it :3 but as for males, they'll have to be jarred. Hopefully being a meanie isn't genetics otherwise they'll be early jarred xD Savannah's my choice. she's a menace though.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

it could be. i mean, that's how they made domestic foxes. they bred the least aggressive foxes with the friendliest attitude to humans, to each other, and eventually came out with happy-go-lucky, puppy-like foxes.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Savannah's hopeful spawn will be pirhanas then :lol: yikes... I should collect jars once they've hatched xD


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

My local breeder leaves her females in 55g sororities, sometimes males stay in there too as she doesn't remove until there is aggression.  When I plan to breed, I will be using the same kind of set up, large sororities and jarring males. But when I breed, mine won't be pets... but breeders. I think a lot of people let the pet side of their emotions come through on breeder subjects


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I picked Savannah to be a breeder  I picked another gal and 2 males for the same reason  and since I'll have another tank that is bigger, everything'll work out fine if either male'll breed, and same with the gals :3 there's a breeder near me too!!! I may get females from her, if she has colors I want, and even different tails  like HM, CT, etc... they'll be breeders but they're still pets to me ;-) last time, when I had some fry with spine deformity they got fed to other fish >.> no smashing. freezing. etc.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Someone mentioned a domesticated cat could not take on a wild rat. We have brushtail possums here, which are aggressive, in possession of sharp claws and about the size of the average cat. They are in our roof and they tear strips off of each other on a regular basis (the noise they make is like a hissing sound). 

Our older cat has fought and killed several of these brushtail possums when he used to refuse to come in at night. Now he's older his possum hunting days are gone.

There's a video floating around on youtube of a cat successfully attacking an alligator. Cats are scarier than dogs when the mood takes them. I think its the sharp claws and teeth coupled with the fact they can easily jump high enough to latch onto your face.

In the photos where the fish are out of water the breeder was probably using it to get a clear shot. I've noticed a few overseas breeders on AB seem to regularly take photographs of their bettas out of water (usually alongside a ruler). 

As for overbreeding, this farm probably sells wholesale as well. They have to have a constant supply of stock to fill orders. I'm doubting that a few private hobbyists is going to be enough to fully support their business.

I wonder if the runty looking fish are going to be culled. Some of them looked rather deformed and unhealthy. I couldn't imagine wasting the space on housing them when you have hundreds of others.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If I started breeding, and did it year round, I could supply the store here with healthier bettas, and stop the disease in blue fish from reaching that store! He'd also be saving money  I like the owner....just not the supplier.


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