# Black BF HM x Yellow HM



## hrutan

Male:


Female:


This was a daddy-in experiment. Fry were hatched 11/17/2014. I have just removed the male today, 12/5/2014 after observing him chasing his offspring.

Tank Temperature ~81-82
PH: 7.8
Tank size: 20 Long
Fry Diet: 
Week 1-2, Vinegar Eels
Week 2+ BBS & Egg Yolk (yes, they eat it)

I'm not sure how many there are, although it wasn't a particularly large spawn to begin with. I expect somewhere between 7-12. Pics will come as soon as I can take some - the silly little guys like to hid in the back of the tank.

Development levels between the fry vary wildly. Some are very large, some are quite small. If the smallest doesn't catch up, the largest may have to be removed to avoid sibling predation.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

=3 this will be a good way to tell if primus has the DT genes or if it was the dame


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## hrutan

Yup! Although the sample size might be too small to know for sure.

If I get double-tails, we know Primus is a carrier, and so is Nimbus.

If I get double-tail geno but no DT, Primus is a carrier, and Nimbus is not.

If I get no double-tail geno, Elizabeth is the carrier.


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## Schmoo

Lovely pair. :3 I'm really excited to see how the fry turn out!


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## BeautifulBetta

Following!!  Im tempted to spawn my black/cellophane male with a yellow girl I'm looking after in the spring. Wanna see what kind of babies you'll get out of this! Both are beautiful


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## Nimble

Somebody has DT genes? How are we knowing this?


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## Nimble

Just read-up on your other Spawn Log. Yippee!


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## Nimble

I'm wondering why this spawn is so small compared to the other one? I remember you saying it was smaller, but I didn't expect that to mean less than 100. Did a bunch die off, or is this just how it's been?


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## hrutan

Nimbus didn't have nearly as many eggs as Elizabeth. There _are _ a few more fry in there than I thought - it seems most were in hiding with Primus in residence. But I don't think I ever had more than 50 eggs in the first place.


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## Nimble

Oh. Okay then~ A small spawn must be nice for a change. I'm still looking forward to seeing pictures, and, of course, if you have any orange or reds, I'm looking forward to grabbing one when the time comes.


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## hrutan

Seems good. Worst case, there will always be more, later. I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to get in the F1 of black x yellow.


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## Nimble

We shall see!

It's hard to say, actually. If Primus has ANY red in him, it'll show over the yellow, if I'm not mistaken. Red is dominant over yellow... or is it co-dominant? If it's co-dominant, you'll see some oranges, in there as well. We may see some more blacks, but I think that black is a recessive trait, isn't it?


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## hrutan

The black is a recessive trait. I suspect (and this is only a vague suspicion) that what we might actually see, based upon Primus's other spawn is...

Blue, with black in F2.

Except I think yellow specifically cleans up blue. So maybe not. It's such a mystery!


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## Nimble

I certainly hope there are a few with little-to-no blue in them. I'd love to get my first breeding male from somebody on this site.


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## hrutan

Argh, probably not from this pairing. Apparently, yellow cleans up _red _not blue (I wonder if this will get me blue/yellow bicolor or butterfly?). I don't have enough money to buy another male right now, although I am watching Aquabid wistfully.

Only time will say what happens. The fry are too young for any coloration sheen, yet.


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## Nimble

Well, there goes my hopes. I'm sure they'll be pretty, but for my first breeding attempt, I would really like to do ROYs (Red, Orange, or Yellow) with little irid ad possible, and then try other things out from there. I will still keep an eye out for your spawns, to see what come from them. I may be surprised and struck to buy something pretty.


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## amphirion

remember black, blue, and yellow are all separate layers and are therefore independent.

dont think blue will show up at all since both male, and female are not showing it. (male is a slim chance since he is a black butterfly-- marble genes).

female is devoid of black which offers three possibilities:
1) kids are black (black is literally supreme over yellow)
2) kids are yellow with black scale edging/darker bodies (pineapples)
3) kids are yellow with koi pattern. 

out of these possibilities, 2 is the most likely to happen-- then again, the marble/butterfly gene should work to favor a few koi (i'd prefer the term yellow jacket because they're yellow and black and it sounds way cooler)


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## Nimble

Whatever the case, we'll be seeing pretty fish come out of this spawn.


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## hrutan

I wouldn't mind some koi. Hehe.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Yellow black koi <3 hrutan's bumble bee bettas, get them while they last


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## Nimble

Your MS Paint skills are quite legendary, Bike.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Nimble said:


> Your MS Paint skills are quite legendary, Bike.


-_- sorry, I'll sketch properly instead of on my iPad from now on


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## Nimble

I wasn't trying to be mean. I was offering a friendly jape, not a sarcastic jab. I'm sorry if I came across as mean. D:


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Nimble said:


> I wasn't trying to be mean. I was offering a friendly jape, not a sarcastic jab. I'm sorry if I came across as mean. D:


No no, i took it as a friendly tease. <3


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## hrutan

Not much to report. There's at least 10 in there. Their level of development varies wildly, probably dependent on how well they've been able to hunt for their food. I did manage to take a couple of pictures.


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## Nimble

What is your opinion of the father-in method so far? Primus seems to be taking good care of his young. How are you feeling about it?


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## hrutan

Cautiously favorable. he started chasing the fry as though annoyed at 2.5 weeks and I took him out. However, the fry left in here look very robust, so at the very least it isn't a -bad- strategy. One of the highest quality breeders out there, Aquastar, keeps his dads in for 8 weeks. I am going to continue trying each spawn and only take the father out if it's clear he's lacking parenting skills.


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## Nimble

Well, that's good, at least. I think I'll try the same when the time comes for my own breeding attempts. You fed BBS and grindal worms to the fry, in addition to them eating scraps from what Primus left for them, right?


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## BlueInkFish

Looking at all these spawns makes me want to get back in the business of breeding! Woot woot! :blueyay: The only thing that's stopping me is my fish and work. Pfft. How do you all figure out time/schedules? :/ I'm falling off the edge holding on to a couple hundred tanks practically haha. The only schedules I really have with my fish are water changes and feeding times. I really need to get a new AB pair! Attempting another spawn is always a challenge but worth the process!


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## hrutan

I figure out the times by not sleeping much, and praying that I get the job that I just interviewed for...and they select me for the closer of the two locations, not the one I'm at right now. A 15 minute commute instead of an hour commute would make my whole life easier. 

I fed vinegar eels for the first two weeks, then moved on to egg yolk (YES, they do eat it) and BBS. I've thrown MW in there a couple of times when the BBS wasn't ready and I didn't feel like mixing yolk. I'm also currently killing a daphnia culture that I fed to them a couple of times as well. I don't know _how _I'm killing the culture...I just am.

I don't have any grindals...I have white worms that are too big for anything but the juvies to eat.


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## BlueInkFish

Haha. I NEED my sleep! I can't last a day without any.. Otherwise I'm a lifeless corpse. You guys are such hard workers!


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## hrutan

I'm seeing hints of blue/purple iridescence in these fry. Will try to get pics tonight, but family's coming over.

Trying them on decapped brine shrimp eggs, live young brine shrimp, and the very occasional drop of microworms. At least some of them are very enthusiastic about both the eggs and live young brine shrimp. I have a culture of brine shrimp that is growing like mad, so I just swoop my net through there now and then and drop them in the tank. 

The size difference between the largest and the smallest is alarming. I have yet to decide if I want to separate the bigguns out or leave them alone, considering how short I am on space.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

How big are the biggies? Big enough for the pet store or to maybe sell a few?


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## hrutan

Oh, this is a very young spawn. They won't be ready for ages - they are at that funny 3 week mark where you can see hints of what they might be someday, if you shine a flashlight on them. The biggest is the width of a fingernail.


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## Nimble

Any hopeful prospects so far?


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## hrutan

Not yet. All I can do is confirm that there's at least 13 in there. Pretty pleased with that number, although I wish the shrimpy little guys would grow a bit more.


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## Nimble

Give them time, Hrutan. Give them time.


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## Nimble

How are they looking today? Are any of them starting to show colors yet?


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## hrutan

They all look like this, currently - some with a bit more red than others. They also have blue iridescence...:


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Red? Who carries red?


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## Nimble

Primus possibly carries red. Not to mention that since Catherine was a Yellow, the kids' reds may lighten up in time.

The blue irid will be something to work with to get rid of, but otherwise I'm excited to see them grow.


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## hrutan

Primus has to be carrying red, blue, _and _red loss, since I've seen all of those traits show up in his other offspring. I expected the blue in this batch, since Elizabeth is a very clean red with almost no irid - but I didn't expect the red. Since Primus was bred to yellow, I wouldn't be too surprised to see the red vanish later. But it took a while for red loss to show up in the other spawn.


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## Nimble

Alas, we must watch and wait.

I'll check the site after work, as I usually do. Good luck!


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

=3


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## hrutan

I bought two small bristlenose plecos to take up cleaning duty in this tank, on another breeder's recommendation. They are doing quite a fine job - however, plecos need driftwood to rasp so they can remain healthy.

Turns out, driftwood is a fry magnet.

"What's dis? What's dis? Wat? WAT?"


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## BettaMummy87

Loads of tasty lovelies on driftwood, I think. I catch my adults nibbling at it from time to time too... infusoria, maybe?


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## hrutan

That was right when I put it in. They were just being curious little goobers. But, that'd as much sense as them hanging out on the sponge filter, hehe.


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## ozymandius

nice hrutan, your pretty good at raising fry man.
what kind of driftwood is that? malaysian fell is supposed to leach tannins into the water and deter microbial growth (beneficial for blackwater beauties like our bettas)


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## hrutan

I believe it's Malaysian driftwood, but it was in the "miscellaneous driftwood" pile at the pet shop. It did give me tannins when I boiled it, but not as much as some other pieces.


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## ozymandius

haha nice, thats exactly were i got the piece in my sorority tank.
why do you boil your driftwood?


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## hrutan

To be sure it's clean and free of any harmful debris, and to make sure any released tannins aren't so heavy that I can't see the fry clearly.


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## Nimble

I'll have to look for some driftwood on eBay, since I don't think any of my LFS carry it... at least the one I regularly frequent doesn't. The other one is farther away, and without a car, I don't want to make that trip in the cold.


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## hrutan

I quite like driftwood, except that kind of weird stage it goes through where it grows this goop on it...but you know, the plecos eat whatever that is UP.


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## aurielssong

interested to see how this turns out..poss interested in a fish sometime


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## Nimble

I really hope you get some good-looking boys out of this. I'm having a HELL of a difficult time finding clean red boys on eBay to start my collection. I mean, other than those that are HMPK and/or coming from Thailand.

I really don't want to have to use a trans-shipper, and I'd much rather prefer to have something bred here in the US. Aquabid is primarily Thai breeders only that dominate the stock catalogs.


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## Schmoo

I find that picture of the fry and the driftwood a lot cuter than I think I should, haha. They seem to be growing quite nicely!


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Little late but story time: first time I got driftwood I boiled it for half an hour, freshened water, repeat for 4 hours because I was paranoid about safety. Needless to say I murdered it 
And Hrutan I'm definitely stealing one of these


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## hrutan

So far, oddly enough, black x yellow is looking _exactly _like black x red. Wonder when red loss will kick in?


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## Nimble

I can't remember if yellow is dominant or recessive to red. If it's recessive, then Primus' own red is overshadowing the yellow from Nimbus. Interesting.

Also, we have colors finally! Hooray!

By the way. Was Nimbus a Cambodian-based Yellow, or do they always have light-colored bodies like that early on?


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## hrutan

I have no way of knowing, unfortunately.


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## BettaLover1313

Subscribing as I'm interested in seeing how this spawn turns out.


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## hrutan

No changes in the last week, although two or three of them are big enough to jar if I want to :shock: This has been absurdly easy in comparison to the last spawn.

Once I move more of the black HM x red out of the house, I'll probably jar those big babies to give the others a chance to grow.


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## Nimble

It's probably easy because you already made all the mistakes in the first spawn.

It's like when you start a new job. After you do it a couple days, it gets easier.


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## hrutan

Yeah, and the first spawn was "trial by fire" where everything happened that "they" warned would happen. 5 million babies, losing sleep over water changes... ect. Haha.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I can't wait to see how these guys color up, yellow, red, red loss, blue, black, butterfly, so many genetics on suck little fish


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## Nimble

We're all excited to see how the colors develop. I know I am~


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## Schmoo

Me too, me too!


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## Nimble

How are the lovelies developing, dear Hrutan, my darling?


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## amphirion

your black was probably carrying red. you should be seeing yellows by now.


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## hrutan

Still no yellows at all. I'm toddling off to retrieve my camera from work, and then doing a photo shoot today. I'll be sure to take some pics of this spawn.


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## Nimble

I need to get a good camera. My phone's camera is... adequate, but I'd love some high-quality close-up shots. Maybe one of my house-mates has one... Knowing one of them, I wouldn't be surprised if she had a good, high-quality camera squirreled away somewhere.


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## hrutan

My best camera is my phone. I did buy a camera, and it's nice enough for odd shots since it has good magnification - like pictures of newly hatched fry that I need to take for my next spawn log. It has the shutter speed, it has the resolution...and it doesn't seem to like taking pictures of the older fry.

Working on setting up the photo tank, and what I'm seeing is red, red, red. They look just like the black x red spawn, but with more branching. :roll:


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## Nimble

More branching, and same amount of irids? Oh dear.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

(I'm not complaining) your last spawn was gorgeous!


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## BettaBoy51

cant wait to see how they turn out! subbed! !


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## hrutan

6.5 weeks old. These three have been jarred, they are far beyond the rest in development and bullying the others out of their fair share of food.


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## Kithy

Ooo, love the colors though. Looks like a sunset.


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## Tress

Pretty babies, they do look a lot like your other spawn o.o


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

*Too cute*


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Also i know its toosoon to tell but id bet numbers 1&3 are female, looks like primus likes to give the x chromosome. (Or whatever it is in fish)


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## hrutan

There have been a lot of different theories about the sex ratio of fry. Ph, temperature, ect. The one that makes the most sense to me is the age difference between males and females. Apparently if there is a significant age difference in the pair, an older female will give more female fry, and an older male will give more males.

Hard to say with the limited resources that I have, but I am very sure that Primus is much younger than Elizabeth.


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## Nimble

So, if that's the case, I can likely expect an even number from my pair? They're just about the same age, only a couple weeks difference, I think. Though, Angostura is about 1.5cm longer in the body(and proportionally larger everywhere else) than Smirnoff is, so I don't know if size affects it as well.


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## hrutan

Theoretically. Random chance means anything could happen, of course, but since the sex of the offspring can be influence by the age of parents even in humans (older parents are more likely to have daughters), it would make sense that the same would hold true of fish.


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## Nimble

Oh, I'm familiar with random chance, hrutan. One of my favorite video games is the Fire Emblem series, which use a random number generator for every single calculation. You have no idea how many times I've praised, and cursed the RNG for a good, or terrible, level-up.


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## hrutan

I removed and cupped the three largest fry in this spawn, and the rest of the little lovelies have hit a bit of a growth spurt now that they don't have to fight a trio of vacuum cleaners for dinner.


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## Nimble

Pictures would be great when you get a chance. I know you're very busy, and don't want to be a nag.

Ugh, I hate this sinus cold. That, coupled with the fact that Bailey's not looking well is making me extra cranky tonight.


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## flowingfins

I am definitely following this!


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## hrutan

Current picture: 

The blue iridescence still shows quite clearly with flash, but it is reduced over the severity of the black x red - just as I had expected. I still don't see any signs of red loss.


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## Poro

cuties


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## MoonShadow

They are adorable! Do you have any trouble feeding decaps? I was toying with raising my next spawn on vinegar eels, and decaps since they are quite a bit more nutritious then hatched bbs.


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## hrutan

Some would take the decaps, some wouldn't. They are difficult to measure. I'd try at 2 weeks and see.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Jiiiiiiiiiii (staaaaaaare)


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## hrutan

I can confirm red loss in this spawn...pictures later today. Phone's charging


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## Nimble

Speaking of pictures, I gotta post the new pictures of my new little Pygmies.


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## hrutan

You sure do.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Just finished setting up the tank your boy will go in, will post pics tomorrow


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## hrutan




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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Any updates? Also http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=507074


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## hrutan

Here are a few pics of the spawn. Lovely creatures.

They all have blue iridescence. One (and only one) has so far displayed red loss. Note the blue eyes on that one.


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## Nimble

So, we've determined that the Red Loss comes from Primus. How about the DT-geno? Any identifiers here?


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## hrutan

_Probably _Primus. The likelihood of it coming from Elizabeth is pretty low.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Should I circle the one I want? XD I'm so excited


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## Nimble

Are any of the ones from this batch showing and DT geno? Any broad dorsals/anals showing up?


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## hrutan

No, I'm not seeing any.


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## Tress

wow, I totally thought Primus was the DT carrier o.o


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## hrutan

The spawn's small, so it could be fluke chance. Elizabeth doesn't have an overly large dorsal. Primus is so "fluffy" that it's hard to tell. So, I think it comes from him...but there is still a chance that it didn't.

Remember, if there's a spawn with high fatalities or runts, that the more complex fish develop slowly and are therefore more likely to die or get killed. The more complicated the genes, the more delicate the fish (note, some people complain that their imports don't live nearly as long as a plain old pet shop veil), and therefore I could quite simply have lost them.


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## Nimble

Ouch, I didn't think about that one. Good point.


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## Tress

Oh, that makes sense.


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## Mahsfish

Subscribed  Interesting results so far


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

*dying for any news


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## hrutan

Video update, I have jarred a few. There are smaller ones still in the tank.


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## hrutan

At some point when I have a bit more time I'll get some in the photo tank so you can see them with clarity and proper lighting.


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## Crossroads

OMG
That second boy is such a spazz
My word he was all over that cup xD


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## KitDewStein

...I want one...I am so poor (no job yet) and live on the other side of the continent....life isn't far D:


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## hrutan

Crossroads said:


> OMG
> That second boy is such a spazz
> My word he was all over that cup xD


I had just removed the cards. It takes them a couple of minutes to stop freaking out, lol.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Pester pester


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## hrutan

Uh, uh. Not much has changed except...

One fish has developed a cellophane butterfly band, another looks like he's thinking about it. But, judging by the other spawn, in these guys it's the first sign of red loss.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Woohoo! I was hoping there would be a red loss boy


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## Greenapp1es

OMG - I just saw the video. Did that one boy seriously just ram himself into the side of the cup?

HAHAHA - these guys are adorable!


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## hrutan

I see two in the jarred group that look like they are turning to full HMs. The other two are delta so far. The red loss apparently can take quite some time to kick in.


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## SiameseFightingArt

Wow they're quite handsome! Would love to see a clear photo though!


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## Nimble

Any 'interesting' red-loss yet? I love seeing the goofy-looking colors.


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## hrutan

Well, I have that butterfly line, but nothing blotchy or weird looking. That'll probably happen fairly soon. The video I posted is what they look like, they are at that point where they aren't changing much, anymore.


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## Nimble

So, you're getting a lot of purples out of this one, then? Interesting indeed. I look forward to seeing the pictures when they're all fully grown and colored up.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

*100% getting a red-loss one


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## hrutan

Nimble said:


> So, you're getting a lot of purples out of this one, then? Interesting indeed. I look forward to seeing the pictures when they're all fully grown and colored up.


They look EXACTLY, and I mean _exactly _like the VT spawn...but with HM.


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## hrutan

Mayhem just broke out in the growout tank. Even the girls started fighting. I've jarred almost all of them and am waiting for them to color up before it's picture time - judging by the last jarring session, that takes a couple of days. There's an awful lot of nipped fins. Such fierce little creatures, aren't they?


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Oh dear 
Well I guess we know 1.5months in the grow out is the limit?


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## hrutan

It varies from spawn to spawn. The HM x VT spawn almost made it to sale size before the boys had to be separated, and the girls were fine up until they went to new homes.


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## BlueInkFish

Any pictures Mrs. Hrutan ?


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## hrutan

Not right now, no. I'll be doing a picture session when they are more comfortable. Tomorrow morning at the earliest, Friday at the latest - Friday's my day off this week.

There aren't that many in this spawn, but they are quite lovely. Two of the males look like they managed to hit full HM. I haven't decided yet whether I want to keep any of them...I might rehome most and then show the best in the Spring show and decide about them after I see how they do.


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## Alyssalovesbettas

I'm Subscribing! What a beautiful spawn you have there


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## Poro

wow I was always told melano bettas are infertile. Thats really interesting :O ! and beautiful babies


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## hrutan

The black was the male. Melano females usually are.


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## konstargirl

Aww! I would love to see new pictures how they look now. ^__^


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## hrutan

Blaah! I am sorry for not giving you pictures yesterday! Any time my roommate and I have the same day off, trouble follows...we were busy all day, and I'd forgotten I was meeting friends in the evening.

BUT! Yes, an update!

One of the males is going through red loss! The butterfly that I mentioned earlier. He looks positively hilarious right now, and I MUST get you guys pics before he finishes!!


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Yes yes yes yes yes yes (sorry, but you know if one has red loss maybe two will, and i will probably want a red loss boy)


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## hrutan

The pic is a little blurry but there's an update. He went through the awkward stage so crazy fast that between when I went to work and when I woke up the next morning, he'd already lost all the red.


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## Greenapp1es

....Wow.

I can't wait to see how that continues to play out!


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## Nimble

Oh, he's a cutie. Doesn't look like he'll make it to full HM, but it might just be the angle. Can't wait to see him colored up.


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## hrutan

No, that one won't make it to full HM.


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## mashp

beautiful betta :-D


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

*staaarrreeee


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## hrutan

*laughs*

I'm sorry, I'd post something if there's been any changes, but there hasn't been any! There's that one pretty butterfly boy, everyone else is cupped and eating well. No other color changes.

...one of the boys is sick and I don't know why, but that's a different issue.


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## hrutan

No updates. Hoping to get a new phone soon. Hopefully this week. We will see on that... But if I get something that isn't a pain in the tuckus to take pictures with, updates sure will be easier.


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## nakito

subbing


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## hrutan

Oops. I'm sorry - I haven't posted any pictures in this thread, because I hope to show a couple of these guys in June, if they -ever- get big enough (they are driving me crazy), and it's best to avoid showing pics of fish you'd like to show. Judges are forbidden from knowing who's fish they are looking at, and they'd like to be able to cruise the Internet without getting any unwelcome surprises.

I have sold all but 4 males that I hope are show quality. They are all too small to show. The one I sold to Greenapp1es (who kindly allowed me to hold on to him for the show season) is the best.

The females ended up ... oddly washed out looking. They weren't very colorful, and none ended up with good form, which was a shame.

I've realized that I don't enjoy halfmoons all that much, and won't be continuing down this breeding path. It's all veils for me after this.


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## BlueInkFish

And the hmpk you got at the show?  What will become of him? Haha, I would talked to you, but it seemed you were busy at the front table during the show and helping out and purchasing during the auction! Maybe next time!


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## Greenapp1es

I hope they grow for you!


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## hrutan

Oh my goodness, Blu, I had no idea that you were even there. You should have said something! I am never too busy to say hi to a friend!

That black lace PK (actually a traditional PK or I wouldn't have purchased him) was supposed to be a male to pair with my green traditional/fighter PK female. But HE turned out to be a SHE!! I've been promised a replacement fish soon, haha. Then I am going to try to breed the pair and see what happens. She has somewhat delicate health. I may not be successful.

The female I have in mind is dark forest green, not turquoise. I talked to a few people, and the person with the most thoughtful answer - Larissa, the judge - said she thought that rather than being the result of a pairing of two royal blue fish, this female is a wild-type green. Her body is black with green iridescence, rather than blue with green iridescence (turquoise, the other "green").

With that in mind, I thought breeding her with a very blue fish would likely get me turquoise, and decided to try black instead.

When I am done with the male, I will probably raffle them off as a pair at one of the Golden State Bettas meetings.


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## BlueInkFish

Haha, yes. I was wearing a blue kaiser hat if you slightly remember 

That's interesting! I thought that the girl you purchased was a male, your never really know until you get your hands on them I guess lol


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## hrutan

You would THINK I'd remember a kaiser hat of any color. You'd think.


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## BlueInkFish

Haha, how are all the fish doing ^_^?


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