# SmeathysBettas spawn log!



## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Hi everyone! I'd like to introduce myself - I'm Heather - but you can call me Smeathy (sm-eh-th-ie). :lol:

I'm not new to betta-keeping, but I am new to breeding bettas. This will be my first time! Oh boy oh boy!!

I've got a buyer all set up and ready to go... so now comes the fun part!
I'm busy getting all my supplies together and picking a pair. I'm having a hard time there, so maybe you all can help?

I'll list my bettas (and post pics later!) so you can have a better idea...

Males being considered -
HM, black/red/gray
HMPK, white/gray
DT, cello/marble

Females being considered -
CT, strawberry
VT, multi/pink/aqua/blue

My goal is to make a different (rather, uncommon) looking offspring, like feathertail or combtail or some kind of DT mix. I may just try my VTs. I don't know! :???:
My buyer wants the babies, no matter what the finnage outcome. But I still want to make a good choice and have healthy fish.

Any advice as far as which pair/combo I should go with?
TY in advance!!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Welcome to the forum......it sounds like you have a plan......although a lot of folks discourage mixing tail/fin types..I am not one of them.....my view on breeding is creating...unless you want to show-then you need to join IBC...that another story....lol.....anyway, good that you have a goal and a buyer...often this is the hard part...finding homes.....I have found that I sell more of my unique Bettas than the type that breed more true or more known like the HM....more common hobbyist that want something special than something that everyone has.....this has been my experience.....I can't breed mine fast enough to keep up with demand.....granted I do breed other species of fish, inverts and plants along with the Bettas and all this pays for my hobby....so all is good...lol.....

But...it has taken me years, lots of hard work and even more time to get the unique Bettas that people want......good thing I am retired.....lol.....with that in mind.....you may not reach your goal with your first spawn....but by having a goal.....your half way.....I am sure you already know all this from all the research you have already done to get ready for this project....its not for the faint of heart and with this type of project you have to cull really hard in the beginning...
And most important....have fun....thats what its all about.....

What supplies do you have on hand, what do you still need, how much can you spend and how much time can you invest

What spawning method do you plan to use, what is the fry feeding plan, adult conditioning plan and how do you plan to cull...

Lots of ways to successfully spawn and rear fry...its finding what works for you, the breeders and what you have on hand.....often this can change from spawn to spawn...they do like to keep us on our toes....lol.....

You may already plan to do this-but thought I would mention it.....when creating your own unique line......use a log book-paper and computer and take pic to document everything....good documentation is a must..
Write up your goal with short and long term goals-complete with actions, interventions, expectation/dates-outcomes-results

Look forward to following your spawn logs.....


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for your reply, OFL 

I am still getting the last of my supplies together. Just ordered some IAL and 90% BBS eggs (gotta set up a hatchery still). I need a few more jars/single containers... but other than that, I'm good to go! 
I've set out a budget, so money is not really an issue. I'm not doing it for the profit either... goodness knows I'm not going to breakeven anyway, lol... I'm not worried about it. I just want to enjoy the experience  
Time is not a worry either. I'll just have to put down my knitting needles for a few months! Heheh

I'm feeling pretty confident about this... for now! lol
I was nervous about having to cull... but I think I'm ok with it... I mean... as ok as I can be!! I've read that you can remove some of the eggs/nest in order to avoid a lot of culling. Buuuuut the father may eat the remaining eggies. Siiigh. Maybe it's a matter of preference, or a roll of the dice.
I'll worry about it when I get there.

First things first - I've still got to make my mind up about what pair to use :dunno:


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Hi and Welcome to the forum.

IMO HM/HMPK x VT won't create anything new - just a bunch of RT and dT. You can try the HMPK x CT and eventually create CTPK .... something you don't often find (I think). This will be more interesting if you add DT to the line..... DTCTPK - uncommon.
Not sure how the feather tails work though.


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## PitGurl (Feb 22, 2011)

As far as your pair goes you need to think about genetics some. Long fins are dominate over short. DT is recessive. Breeding CT to anything but another CT isn't recommended because it produces messy fins. Feather tails are nice to look at but breeding them can result in some issues. Depending on your goals you'll probably have to breed a few generations to get what you want. There are a few good sites that explain genetics in more depth. 

I would suggest getting a female HM or PK to breed to your males. Check the classifed adds on here there may be some females for sale.

Good luck with whatever direction you decided to go .


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Spawning and rearing your own Bettas from eggs to adults can be so rewarding and fun.....even with a failure here or there...it happens.....you just keep tryin....lol....

As far as removing eggs...personally I don't like to cull that way....I want as many as possible in the beginning-let natural selection happen-then cull from that point.....another tank with cichilds are good for this-but several good methods for young fry...some I may not cull until they are 6-8 weeks old-some older.....this varies on my goal and why I am culling that Betta.....I cull all deformities and luckily over the past few years that has decreased-but I do work with doubletails...so I do still get some...maybe 10% or less....since I have a buyer for all that I can create I no longer need to cull form and color like I once did.....

Feather tails-I want to say you need rosetail and as beautiful as they are-they can have some major issues themselves...not sure if the feather tails does too.....

I would practice with the BBS to make sure your source water can hatch them if you have never hatched BBS-but I wouldn't hatch any for fry food until you have fry ready to feed...once the BBs absorb their yolk sac they have very little nutrition for young Betta fry-poor nutrition-especially lack of HUFA you can see sudden death in young fry-but if you add another live food usually its a non-issue or supplement the BBS with HUFA once they molt and absorb the yolk sac.....

Another big cause of mass fry loss is too cool/dry air over the water when they develop their labyrinth organ and go for that first breath of air at the surface (2-4weeks)...important for it to be warm and humid...I use plastic veggie wrap over the top of the tank for this-but anything will work...

And I am sure you already understand and know about the importance of water quality and stable chemistry....


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Seem like u have a project in mind...
I'll say go with it...
If your doing it for the long run...
I suggest u get your hand on some live culture...
The price on food will add up very quickie if u more then on batch going at the same time....
Bbs is really a pain in the but for me...
When I breed more then one pair at a time...
Just think about this...
If u have 1 fry or 200 fry...
It still take the same amount of time to hatch Bbs....
It's just take much time and the Bbs don't live that long in water....


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## floridiansx (Sep 23, 2011)

i second oldfishlady's words, let nature takes its course and just let the fish do what nature intended. plus the eggs and frys are fragile and new breeder, just let them be and learn. i'm breeding giants at the moment, i want to see a foot long betta. maybe in the next 20 years there will be one.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Good luck with the spawn!!


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Update time! It's been a few days since I've posted... nothing much to say about the actual spawn log, other than I'm probably going to go with my VT couple. I know, I know... but this IS my first spawn. My buyer sells the most VTs in his shop, and finding them homes is my biggest concern. I'll try for something different next go-round. 
Now... I'm battling a bit of ich in my female tank. I've been so consumed with water changes and whatnot, that conditioning is on the backburner. They are looking better, but it seems their fins are 'crumbling'. I've been lucky to always have quality, healthy bettas, so overcoming this is proving to be a challenge for me. :-/
I'll keep at the WCs and report back. And thanks everyone for posting and reading my newbie-spwan-log! <3


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Today I gave my male a look-see at my female! I know there's debate on whether or not to let them see each other, but... I was curious. 
My guy is an odd one... I just wanted to see how he would behave. I floated her cup in his tank for about 5 mins. Both did ok! He was zipping around his tank, wiggling, flaring a bit, tryin to look all seksi :3 My girl seemed interested. She's very docile, so no flaring on her part. I suppose that's good.

I'm not sure how long/often I should let them 'get used' to each other (since that's the approach I want to take)... ?

Everything else is coming along otherwise. The ich is clearing up, fins are looking better.
I'm still waiting on a few things to arrive (IAL, bs eggs) in the mail, but they should be here soon. I'm going to set up a practice BBS hatchery once the eggs come.
Can adults eat the BBS? I don't wanna waste 'em 

Hmm. I'll update again laters :-D


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Adults will love BBS! My bettas love any live food I offer them. Good luck with your spawn.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

What do you mean by "no flaring on her part"? She should flare too and swim all crazy like the male. If she's too docile, it probably means she's not ready to spawn.

Basically you can show males the female. But 
1. If you do it too often (show - remove), sometimes the male changes mood and becomes aggressive (fight) specially if the female doesn't respond.
2. The female might "respond" too quickly and release her eggs. This often happens to veteran breeders.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

I hate when that happen, floating the female to come back to see that she made her own nest with eggs in it...
A major set back...


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Yea, I know she's not ready. I've haven't been conditioning for long yet. Just got overly excited and curious.  I'm just gonna play it safe and only let them see each other sparingly. Maybe a few more times before the real thing.

I'm so nervous and I don't wanna mess this up in any way! Yikes!!


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Will let us know when u actually breed.
I want to known the outcome.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Update: I am going to be setting up my spawn tank tonight, woooo!!
My female is looking good, nice n eggy. My male is building his nest like a crazy man!

I need to make a schedule on water changes for the fry/growout tank...... anyone want to help me out? Heheh

Oh, and I hope everyone out there had a nice Thanksgiving!!

I'll update again (with pics) as soon as more progress is made


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

will you should have set up your tank like a week or two ago.
i usually set up the tank at the same time i start conditioning my breeding pair.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

I've had the tank set up for about a month actually... just gotta lower the water level n such. :]
Bad wording on my part, I s'pose.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Soooo, fast forward to right now!
My female has been released from her jar in the spawn tank (had her there overnight) for about 2hrs now. There's some chasing/nipping and she hides. He will work on the nest for a few seconds, then he snoops around to find her and chase some more. He is wagging and showing off, tryin to look studly, lol...
My fem is just a little spooked now, hanging around the top (when not hiding). Should I give her a break? I feel like she needs to chill and also he can focus on growing the nest. I worry bc I don't want to have to start over with the courtship process. Does any of this make sense? Lol...
Any advice?


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Unless he is really tearing her up, let it go, the process can take up to 3 days. I took one female out because she was so scared she was trying to fly up the glass! If her fear is just swimming and hiding, don't worry about it too much, that is normal.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

How big is your tank.
Is there a lot of hiding spot away from the male bubble nest


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

My spawn tank is a 10gal. Got a hideout, a bushy fake plant, some anacharis and IAL, a sponge filter, heater, thermometer, and 1/2 of a foam cup. My girl isn't having any problems hiding... its just the male is really good at seeking  I have a 17gal tub container I may use, just to give them more area to stretch across. Eh?

I did take her out tho... I don't think she's as ready as she made me think. Maybe I'm just being overly panicy? She looked super freaked out and my guy wasn't paying very much attention to building up the nest. 
Maybe I acted too soon, idk... but I felt like no progress was being made.
I think I'm going to condition a bit more, give them time to rest, then try again in a few days. Oooorr maybe I'll just start conditioning a different pair. I dunnos.
Feeling a little discouraged, in general.

*pouts*


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Random Q -- would it do me any good to let the female swim around in the spawn tank, alone, for a bit?? Just so she can find her way around without being stalked? Thhheen take her out, put my male back in, and re-jar her in the tank?
Lol I'm thinking too hard... or not enough!


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Female is in the tank (jarred) again. Male is showing off a lot more and working on his nest more persistantly. Fem is flaring and looking very interested. Maybe she did need a lil timeout afterall!
I am planning on keeping her jarred til tomorrow afternoon... depending on how they are behaving. 
I'll update the log then... good nite. 
:]


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

If the male already have the nest.
Plus the female have a lot of hiding spot.
I'll just let the female roam free.
Check on her every so hour.
If the female is to badly beat before breeding.
I'll just take her out.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Good luck with your spawn. I'll be watching ; )


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Got my fem in her jar... my guys nest looks much better. I am going to re-release her in a few minutes! Hope they are in a baby makin kinda mood 

Geez I need to post some pics still. I'll get to it soon, I promise!


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

will some female won't submit unless there beat up.
some will just go right away.
as long as she still flare back at the male then its fin.(unless she to badly beaten)


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

They're going to town!! Omg! Neither are paying any attention to the falling eggs... they r sitting on the bottom. Uh oh??? When do eggs "go bad"? Should I be worried??


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Cancel that last post... daddy just picked some up


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

ewwww.
your watching fish porn.
my dad once told me me you can go blind watching porn.

lol jk jk
sometime it will take a few embrace b4 they pick up the egg.
yeah don't spend to much time watching them.
most of the young male will get frighten and eat up the egg.
yeah you don't really have 2 do much in the next few day.
just remember to remove the female once the breeding is over.
then the male when the fry r free swimming.

have you already cover the top of the tank b4 you set up the tank.
cause if you should.
watch the temp.
cause when you cover a establish tank.
the temp might raise a few degree.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Congratulations! I'd love to see some pics as soon as you can post them.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Pics - finally! 
First pic, is my male. Orange body, black face. He's a tailbiter at times (out of boredom... we're workin on that, lol) but still a great fish!! I love him to pieces.
Second pic, is my female. Turquoise and pink. I love her coloration, looks amazing in person.
Third pic is of the spawning tank. Nothing too fancy. IAL stained water. Ya know.
Annnd lastly -- egggggsss!! I hope you can see them ok. There's probably 100 or so. Oh boy! I wasn't expecting a huge number... I'm pretty pleased :-D

So yah!! Papa is being a good boy... tending the nest perfectly. I'm wondering if I should feed him, to keep him from eating any eggies? I don't want to distract him tho... hmph.
My BBS should be hatching around the same time as the eggs. 
Is it ok to feed as soon as they're free swimming, and I have taken Papa out? *shuffles through massive notebook of betta info*
How long do BBS live after hatching? I just want to make sure I have everything down as far as my hatching/feeding/WC schedule. Helps? Lolz


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Congratulations! So many eggs! Looks like a really large spawn.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Congrats......

I would hold off hatching the BBS just yet.....the fry will fed off their yolk sac for the first 2-3 days after hatching-you want to wait until they are free swimming and ready to fed so you don't have a lot of rotting food in the tank to foul the water......... and you really want to feed newly hatched BBS (_NHBBS_) with their yolk sac intact for best nutrition for the fry.

Once the BBS go through the first molt you also have more shells to tend with-be sure and try to limit the shells and rinse them really good before feeding too.....lots of nasty bacteria in the hatchery water.....I like to have 2 hatcheries going 24h apart for the first couple of weeks so I only feed NHBBS to the fry and once I start adding food I also start making water changes....

Do you plan to remove the male or keep him long term with his fry....


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks OFL! Wish I knew that before... should I make a fresh batch now? I just noticed the eggs wiggling/twitching a bit. 
Most of the BBS have hatched.... would it hurt to go ahead and feed the fry the BBS I have ready?
I just don't want to wait too long (another 2 days for a new batch)... yikes


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Fry with there egg sack still attach won't eat.
So I recommend you not feeding them until you see them free swimming.
Anything before that just going to pollute the water.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

I see tails!! Woohoo!!
Papa is still going strong, taking great care of the little guys.

Me happy.


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## Wolfboy51 (Oct 12, 2011)

Do u have to hatch BBS in a hatchery??


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Awesome...bouncing babies......

If the only food you plan to feed is BBS.....it is really important to feed newly hatched BBS with their yolk sac intact so that they contain the needed nutrients for the Betta fry...especially the HUFA.....deficiencies can cause sudden death and general growth/development issues...if you are going to be adding other foods...its less of an issue.....you also have the physical size of the BBS....they get bigger with every molt......the first couple of week are most critical....

How are you hatching the BBS...generally it shouldn't take longer than 24-28h for the bigger percent to hatch.....


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm hatching the usual way... 2liter bottle, ya know. They're hatching perfectly, no prob there. Just started a new batch this morning. I saved some of the BBS from my previous batch, just to be on the safe side. I tried to feed some of them to my adults... lol that was a waste! They couldn't even see 'em. Oh well!

I'm so proud of my guy... he is swimming his tail off trying to keep up with his babies. He's not eating any (that I've seen) and there's definitely more than I thought! Maybe around 200? Yikes! <3
I'm so ready to take him out and let him rest! He needs it.

Geez and I'm so excited to see the fry swim freely!! I know I've got A LOT of work ahead of me... but it will be so worth it - I'm already in love with all of the lil ones... *sigh* might keep them allllllll!! Muahahaha... don't think my husband will appreciate the betta take over. Oh wait, that's already happened!


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## SDragon (Sep 26, 2011)

floridiansx said:


> i second oldfishlady's words, let nature takes its course and just let the fish do what nature intended. plus the eggs and frys are fragile and new breeder, just let them be and learn. i'm breeding giants at the moment, i want to see a foot long betta. maybe in the next 20 years there will be one.


 A foot long betta would be awesome.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Lolz, heck yes!! :3


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Males usually don't eat while taking care of their fry.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

There's a few free swimmers! At least, they're trying. Papa keeps scoopin them up before they get too far. He will be coming out once there are more FSs.

So, problem. I wanted to suck up some of the icky stuff on the tank bottom (being extra careful not to get a fry) and I notice some wiggly little wormy things. 
First of all... EWW! 
Secondly, what daaaa? What are they? Are they bad, will they hurt mah babies? How'd they get in (could it be from the IAL)? What do I need to do to make em go away? Yuck! *snarls at tank*

My snails doin a half arsed job of cleaning up... just out of curiousity, can I put a ghost shrimp in with the fry, or will it eat the baybays? Hmm.

I'm grossed out to the MAX.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Be careful with ghost shrimp and the fry...mean little buggers and they might eat the fry...cherry shrimp are fine...or at least in my spawning tanks I have never had any issues with RCS and fry or even eggs...except for the bad ones and I want them to eat those....any way....most likely the worms are planaira and harmless to the fry...usually the male will eat them...usual cause is high organics in the tank-overfeeding....etc.....


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

All is well with the fry. I've been offering BBS twice a day. I haven't actually SEEN anyone of then eat... but the BBS are disappearing, lol, so I suppose they're eating.
The parents are doing just fine too. Broke my heart to watch my male after I took him out. He was a mess; looking for his babies and franticly blowing a fresh nest. He's ok now, just a lil bummed.
Those wormy things are still in the spawn/fry tank. Blech. Will my snail eat them?

Anywho... kinda not much else going on.  hope everyone has a good weekend!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Aww, your poor male! It sounds like he was a good daddy.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Woowoo! Update time 
So, the babies are almost 2wks old! They all look super. I am already noticing a few fry that are larger than the others, that's normal... right? I knwo I'll have to seperate the big ones from the small ones eventually and all... but you know, just thinkin 
Papa has torn his fins up, as I expected, even with all my efforts to keep him entertained and his water extra clean. Siiiigh. Guess he's just depressed? I suppose I need to let him work thru it, lol.

Now I'm wondering... when can dry/pellet/flake foods be introduced? I know I'm getting too far ahead (like always) but I'm curious. I looked at the "first bites" food when I was browsing my LPS. That stuff any good for betta fry?
Also, I don't know if its too soon (or not soon enough, yikes) but I've started doing a few drips of the aged water. I've read that one trick is to not fuss with WCs until the tank is full again. 1/4gal a day or something? I haven't been adding even close to that a day (maybe 1/2 cup?).

Uhmm I guess I could use a little direction here!?

TY in advance ;-)


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

you can slowly introduce dry food when they hit about a month old.
but i've found out that some fish just refuse to eat flake


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## Bambi (Sep 11, 2011)

Prefectly normal. larger or more frequent waterchanges should keep the size difference to a minimum as there won't be a build up of the pheromone larger fry produce to stunt the others.

I've heard of alot of breeders using the first bites so they should be fine. The package says it can be used from day one so I suppose you could start using it whenever you like? My fry start off with dry food(decap BSE) so I the only fry i raise are fine with them, no picky "live food only" babies.

I add a gallon a day until my ten gallon is just short of full(about 8-9gallons). Then I do 2-one gallon water changes.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

thanks bambi for your reply! I've got the tank full and I'm doing regular WCs now. The fry are doing well!
They are going to be one month old this weekend. I've seen the larger, more developed fry going to the surface for air. YAY! They are coming along so nicely, I couldn't be happier 
Once they get larger, I'll post a few pics. They're not much to look at right now lol


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Congratulations on the one month mark! I'm really happy that the fry are doing so well.


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## SmeathysBettas (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks!


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