# Orange Koi HMPK x Yellow Koi HMPK



## lovelybettas

Male:
View attachment 577106


Female:
View attachment 577114


This thread is mainly for myself to keep track and gain more experience for the future, so I apologize for all the details! 

Introduced: 6/18/15 in the morning.
Spawned: 6/19/15 in the morning.
Hatched: 6/20/15 during the night through 6/21/15 morning.
Free Swimming: 6/22/15.


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## lovelybettas

*COURTSHIP/SPAWNING 6/18/15 - 6/19/15:*

The spawning tank is a 15 quart Hefty plastic bin, with aged and conditioned water filled about 4-5 inches up. It has two Indian almond leaves, live floating water sprite, a terracotta pot, one plastic plant, a styrofoam cup, bubblewrap, a sponge filter turned off, and a heater set at 82°F. 
When introduced the male started building his nest right away under the bubblewrap and inside the cup. There was only a few nips on the female, though she seemed very scared the first day from getting bit/chased. Then the next day she was ready to spawn but the male chased her away and continued with his nest. After about half and hour, they started to spawn. The female helped put eggs in the nest, it took about an hour of attempts to finally have eggs. There were at the very least 100 eggs when they spawned, but I think the dad ate some eggs over night. The pair has never spawned so I'm still very pleased with this male. The eggs all hatched on Father's Day and the dad did a great job taking care of his fry.


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## lovelybettas

*1 DAY OLD/FREE SWIMMING 6/22/15:*

I took out the male when I saw that most of the fry could "swim" horizontally. Dad was not so happy and was desperately trying to jump out of his cup to get to his babies :sob:. I gave the fry some vinegar eels and I'm hoping I didn't overfeed, though there are lots of fry scattered near surface of the water. I'll be giving them microworms in a few days and then I'll set up a brine shrimp hatchery once they're about a week old. But now I really have no idea if the fry are eating the eels or not :question:.

Macro:
View attachment 577330


Normal:
View attachment 577338


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## Elleth

Subscribing. Gorgeous pair and adorable babies! Love the pictures, too


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## lovelybettas

Thanks! Though anything could go wrong at this point, including my water quality.

pH: 7.5 ish
ammonia: 0.25ppm :-?
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 0ppm

I can't have the ammonia rise any more, so I might try to do a water change without shocking the two day old fry, and also adding ammo lock in.


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## Sadist

Wow, I didn't know they could have spots already! Good luck growing them out! I can't wait to see the end.


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## lovelybettas

_*2 DAYS OLD 6/23/15*_

The fry have been moving a lot more, and there are so many! :-D I have microworms available but most of the time they stay near the surface of the water instead of the bottom. Because ammonia is at 0.25ppm, I did a small water change with a turkey baster and dripped aged IAL water in. I also added prime to condition the new water and help with ammonia. I turned on the sponge filter but it doesn't create current since the water doesn't cover the whole tube yet. Still cannot tell if the fry are eating the vinegar eels but I do know they are at least trying to eat. They are still too small in my opinion to eat baby brine shrimp. 

I just took a video of them a little bit ago, they are on the verge of turning 3 days old so they may be more active than 2 day old fry: 
https://youtu.be/k9RE8gnxlOk

I found that some fry are lighter than other fry, in these pictures I circled the lighter colored fry:
View attachment 578314

View attachment 578322


Hoping they'll pull through the night, especially because of the water change and all!
View attachment 578018


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## lovelybettas

*Indian Almond Leaves*

I always thought there was something fishy about the bacteria and debris an Indian almond leaf leaves behind. So while setting up the spawning tank I stuffed a leaf inside a clean, empty tea bag so the debris wouldn't get everywhere. I also had a floating leaf to encourage a bubblenest. I really badly wanted to take out the free leaf when the fry were in the nest but I couldn't because I didn't want to get my hands all in the tank and mess everything up. Well now today, fry are 3 days old, I finally took out the leaf to find maybe 10 dead fry stuck to the leaf/bacteria. The day before yesterday there was one dead fry stuck on the tea bag since that had the fuzzy bacteria growing on it too.  I've always heard not to worry about the debris and the fuzzy bacteria IAL grows, but now I've learned something new.


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## lovelybettas

*3 DAYS OLD 6/24/15*

Today I found quite a lot of dead fry, maybe 20, more or less. There are still lots of fry left, and I'm hoping the loss was caused by the Indian almond leaf. Otherwise it could've been from the water change yesterday. I still siphoned the residue from the IAL today with a turkey baster, and the tank looks pretty clean right now. :thumbsup: Except I know prime only makes ammonia non-toxic and doesn't remove it, but I still tested the water and it's still at 0.25ppm even though I changed some water. I dripped the same aged water as yesterday. I fed vinegar eels today, including a tiny amount of microworms to a group of fry at the bottom of the tank. Today I could see fry eating the vinegar eels! Super exciting, hoping I can feed the microworms from now on without having missing ventrals. Also I hope they'll be big enough to eat bbs in a few days!


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## Sadist

Wow, look at all those babies! I'm sorry for your losses.


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## lovelybettas

*4 DAYS OLD 6/25/15:*

I found too many dead fry not to be worried. About 25 today! Not sure if it's a disease, stress, ammonia, or maybe they're just weak. There are at least 60 fry left. I did the same things as yesterday but this time the dripped water was heated, as to before when it was room temperature at around 79 degrees. I added more water than I took, and I think it's helping the ammonia! :-D There is nothing in the tank but a sponge filter, heater, thermometer, and water sprite. I feel like the fry got a tiny bit bigger, but I could just be imagining. I'm going to completely stop giving them vinegar eels soon and feed them microworms, I believe they can handle the size. I'm so worried about them not growing ventrals if I feed too many microworms and don't siphon after!!! But once they're about a week old I'll start feeding a mix of microworms and bbs.


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## natashahickey

subscribing and wishing you luck! they will be beautiful


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## Overprotective Fish Lover

Subscribing!!! They're such cute, speckled little bits of pure adorableness.


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## lovelybettas

*5 DAYS OLD 6/26/15:*

I'm not hopeful about this spawn anymore. I'm trying so so hard to keep this spawn alive, I'm testing the water, keeping it clean, keeping the temperature steady, giving them ve, mw, organisms from the live plants, carefully siphoning, carefully dripping, everything I can think of. Still I found at least 30 or more dead fry today throughout the day and I have no idea why. Ammonia is now at 0ppm. There is still a lot of amount of fry left but most are dying (on the floor vertically) and I'm not surprised if there's none left in a few days. The dying ones are usually head down tails up at an angle and not moving/eating, I've heard other people have this problem as well and they died too. I set up a brine shrimp hatchery this morning. I don't know what else I can do now but watch them die one by one for a reason I can't figure out.


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## lovelybettas

Thank you so much for the compliments, if any of you have any suggestions on what I should do I would appreciate it.


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## LittleBettaFish

Seems like you are doing everything right. I wonder if you don't have something like velvet, as this can kill fry very quickly. 

Are the remaining fry behaving normally?


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## lovelybettas

LittleBettaFish said:


> Seems like you are doing everything right. I wonder if you don't have something like velvet, as this can kill fry very quickly.
> 
> Are the remaining fry behaving normally?


Thanks, yes the remaining fry are swimming and eating. But it seems like every minute passing by another one is at the bottom. There are about 20-30 fry vertical at the bottom.


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## lovelybettas

I just read that it could be nutrient deficiency. I fed them vinegar eels for three days then with microworms until now, 5 days old. I've seen plenty of people do this with no problem so I don't know if that's the reason. I guess I'll wait until tomorrow, I'm dreading to look at the tank tomorrow morning.


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## Overprotective Fish Lover

Awwwwww...poor little things.


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## lovelybettas

There's few left now, I think I'm going to blame a disease or the microworms. Right when I started feeding mw they started to die. I've seen some microworms attached the fry, would it be possible for them to eat the fry?? I really have no idea what I did wrong. I think I'll breed this pair again and feed ve and then bbs right away. If they still die off then I'm guessing it's my water or the pair themselves.


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## lovelybettas

*6 DAYS OLD 6/27/15*

Today and yesterday were nightmares. :sob: Over half the remaining fry were found dead today, and I'm now pretty sure when the eggs hatched there was at least 200 fry. I kind of gave up today, as the brine shrimp didn't hatch because the heater heated the hatchery just two degrees higher than it should have been for them to hatch. I probably shouldn't be surprised that just two days ago the fry were healthy and feeding on vinegar eels and now almost all are dying for a reason I can't figure out! :frustrated: I'll just never know with these bettas. Tomorrow morning I might just transfer the healthy ones, I'm guessing about 20-30, to a new clean tank. The active fry seem bigger, I'm hoping they'll survive the change. :sad:


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## Elleth

I'm so sorry for the troubles you've been having. I hope it gets better from here on out.


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## Sadist

I hope they do better in their new tank. It's possible that they had some recessive gene and were all deformed in a way you can't see. There's a reason fish lay hundreds of eggs.


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## lovelybettas

Thank you both. Yes, if none survive from this spawn I'll try again with the pair and see...


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## Fenghuang

Sorry for your loss, hope things get better. I have read that with koi patterned spawns, there is often a huge die-off shortly after becoming free-swimming. Something to do with the genetics, I guess. Maybe that is what it is?


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## lovelybettas

Fenghuang said:


> Sorry for your loss, hope things get better. I have read that with koi patterned spawns, there is often a huge die-off shortly after becoming free-swimming. Something to do with the genetics, I guess. Maybe that is what it is?


I was thinking that, thanks for pointing that out, since I didn't know if other people had trouble with kois too. I tried my other red koi pair, and the fry died out as well though I wasn't as careful with this spawn. Maybe that is why kois are/were so rare and expensive!


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## lovelybettas

*1 WEEK OLD 6/28/15*

Thanks for everyone's replies! Today I moved the remaining fry that weren't dying into a smaller glass tank. I underestimated how many were left since I found at least 50 fry remaining.  The new tank has some aged water and some fresh water. I just floated the two cups of fry in the new tank for about an hour while adding some of the new water every now and then. Then I let them all out and fed them microworms. I added a gold mystery snail to help eat the leftover microworms and dead fry, hopefully it won't eat any alive! I'm hoping it will also prevent the missing ventrals case as well. Some have died which was expected, but so far so good! :roll: Set up a new bbs hatchery hopefully they'll hatch this time, I've never had a problem hatching bbs until yesterday!


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## InStitches

yay! It still looks like a small swarm is left  I hope most stick around for you


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## Nimble

You're already off to a better start than I was, so don't be too worried.


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## Sadist

Wow, you can see how tiny they are next to the snail! I hope they do better!


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## hrutan

That's good news. I've replied to your post on the breeding section. Sorry I did not do so earlier...I was on vacation.


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## lovelybettas

*9 DAYS OLD 6/30/15*

Quite a lot dead today and yesterday as usual. Though they do seem to be growing noticeably bigger! Still don't know what exactly is causing them to die off, my guesses are genetics or a disease. I added aquarium salt as hrutan suggested (also don't apologize, thanks for your help!) And don't worry, I took out the mystery snail. This morning a tiny bit of brine shrimp hatched, and they were not the vibrant orange I'm used to seeing them as =_= I don't know what's going on with them either. Still the fry were happy to eat them until their tummies were bright orange. The 50-60 fry left seem so healthy, all of this seems like good news, but my guess is they are all going to die off by the end of the week, since so many are dying a day


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## kittenfish

How much salt/other stuff are you using in your brine shrimp hatchery?


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## lovelybettas

kittenfish said:


> How much salt/other stuff are you using in your brine shrimp hatchery?


Yesterday I used different eggs and 1 tablespoon of salt per liter, and they hatched by 24 hours!!  But before that, the ones that didn't hatch, I used different eggs with 1 and a half tablespoons of salt. All hatcheries got a pinch of baking soda as well. Not sure if it's how much salt or the type of eggs that cause them not to hatch, but I can figure that out now, thanks!


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## hrutan

What type were the first batch? I've noted San Francisco brand doesn't hatch much at all.


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## lovelybettas

hrutan said:


> What type were the first batch? I've noted San Francisco brand doesn't hatch much at all.


I'm actually not sure, I bought both types on eBay. I've used those before, maybe a year ago and it was fine... I even rebought them after I ran out! I actually disliked the ones that are being perfect right now because before the eggs would all sink to the bottom, mixing with the shrimp, but now I only have a few teaspoons of the good ones left. May I ask what brand you use? I store both in the fridge. (I can try to find both sellers if anybody wants!)


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## hrutan

Might I recommend Brine Shrimp Direct? They have good quality eggs and equipment at very reasonable prices.


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## lovelybettas

*10 DAYS OLD 7/1/15*

Finally tried with different eggs and slightly different hatching solution to get tons of bbs! Their tummies were big and orange the whole day. I set another hatchery up this morning, so I have two running, one that are freshly hatched, and one that is new and hatching. So basically I think I'm going to set one up every morning, since it takes them 24 hours to hatch. I'm going to try using the bad eggs with the new solution and see if they hatch, if not I'll buy the ones hrutan suggested. ALSO, I found less (still about 10, better than before) dead fry today, :-D possibly because of the aq salt? Hoping they'll pull through!


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## Overprotective Fish Lover

I'm routing for the little sweethearts!


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## Sadist

That's good news that less are dying off. I'm still guessing genetics and hoping a few pull through to adulthood. Maybe the salt is helping the ones that are stronger to stay strong.


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## lovelybettas

*11 DAYS OLD 6/2/15*

Found the least amount of dead fry since two days old! :-D:-D I'm hoping the unknown fry dying spree is coming to an end. If not, I'm really sorry for everyone following this thread who's expecting healthy fry results. Enough with that, here's some pictures!

View attachment 583170


Next to a toothpick:
View attachment 583178


View attachment 583186


View attachment 583202


View attachment 583210


View attachment 583218


View attachment 583234


Is that a caudal?! :shock::
View attachment 583242


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## Elleth

OMG they have TAILS? Lol that is too adorable! I'm rooting for them, I hope they pull through for you, or at least that some of them do.


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## InStitches

yay, babies!! I'm glad they're still going


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## Tree

Eeeep! I want one! =D I am rooting for them as well!


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## lovelybettas

*2 WEEKS OLD*

The last three days I "only" found 3 dead! :-D My current brine shrimp eggs should be just enough until the new ones I ordered come around this week. I tried decapsulating the bad eggs to see if they'll hatch after that. I siphoned a lot of water out yesterday and I'm slowly trying to fill up the tank. When I moved the fry I underestimated how many were left and put them in a 2.5 gallon. Do you guys think I should move them to a 5.5 gallon, 10 gallon, 15 gallon, or I believe a 35 gallon and when? There's about 50 right now.


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## lovelybettas

*Omg*

I just went down to feed the fish and I FIND THE SAME PAIR SPAWNING. I have a tank divided into two, a sorority and the male from this spawn. The mom from this spawn somehow got into his side and they are spawning right now. I have no idea what I should do, how do I even save the babies? If they begin free swimming they'll get to the sorority and plus the water level is too high. How could I move the nest and the dad without destroying it or cause the dad to eat the eggs. If they hatch are they able to go with the 2 week old fry? Thoughts? :shock:


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## Tree

oh my..... that is a dilemma. Not sure what you could do. You can't simply take out the eggs and dispose of them? I know it sounds bad but it's better than not having the perfect environment for them since you already have fry growing. =(


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## lovelybettas

I was planning on, if possible, moving the dad and nest to a 2.5 gallon and then if any survive I'll put them with the current fry. But I don't know if a two week difference will cause problems :-?


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## Tree

You don't think they will eat them do you? that would be fear. But I would give that a shot unless someone else tells you not to. ^^


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## Sadist

I've read about moving the nest with a spoon. You could do that and move the dad or try to hatch them yourself.


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## lovelybettas

*6/7/15*

_1ST SPAWN - 2 WEEKS AND 2 DAYS:_
Moved them to a 5.5 gallon today and fed them bbs and microworms, I added the snail back in since there was no added aquarium salt. 

_2ND SPAWN: EGGS_
Caught the pair spawning at around noon and didn't know how long it was going on. I moved the eggs into a 2.5 gallon using a spoon and also moved the dad. There is maybe 100 eggs and they went everywhere, some sinking and others floating. Though they might not hatch because of the transfer. Dad was frantic, thought he could've died from stress for a second! But eventually he got every single egg and packed them into a nest. Don't think he ate any eggs so maybe they may still hatch?


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## FishMemory

I have a question for the people who have done this successfully. Do you feed the male after the female has laid the eggs ? I have read on different areas and they say that the male will confuse the eggs for food I don't know how true that is.


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## hrutan

I feed both male and female during the entire process. I have not tried starving him ... but it seems to me that if he is hungry or feeling weak, the eggs would be more likely to go down the hatch.

Some males refuse to eat, however.


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## FishMemory

Thank you for the info i'm getting ready to breed in a few weeks when they are done conditioning it is my first time so I hope i get this right thats all


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## lovelybettas

*crisis!!!*

This very problematic spawn log has yet another big crisis. I need to leave home for 2 weeks, more or less, in a few days. I immediately bought the brine shrimp Hatch 'N Feeder which should get here in the mail soon. Apparently the device sits in your tank and acts as a brine shrimp hatchery, and the shrimp swim out of opening to where your fish can eat them. I'm going to take the fry tank to my "fish-sitter" and she can change some water and put more eggs in the feeder everyday. So nervous especially because I was planning to mix the two spawns when they got bigger, but now I may just have to do it before I leave. I also have a new sorority which I'm scared of leaving alone, should I separate them?


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## mashp

just a warning about the self-feed brine shrimp hatchery, if your fry are to small they can go through the hole and get kill by the salt water in there. just make sure you put a mesh that is fine for the shrimp to pass, but not your bettas. Good luck


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## lovelybettas

Thank you for the warning, I was thinking about that.

*2 WEEKS AND 4 DAYS 7/8/15*

Moved the spawn from the 5.5 gallon to the 10 gallon today, I've been doing a loooot of moving since they started dying off. Though this time I used a brine shrimp net instead of scooping them like usual. I think putting them in a bigger tank will help a little with water quality. I'm also using two sponge filters to try to help as well.

I don't think I want to combine the other spawn because of all the losses there were with the first spawn. 

YouTube video of first spawn eating microworms:
http://youtu.be/guOYLPgwnHI


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## Sadist

I hope your fish sitter does okay with the fry! I love that you made a video of them, too. I see lots of fins.


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## lovelybettas

*2 MONTHS OLD 8/21/15*
The fry are now almost 9 weeks old and are too small for their age due to the two weeks I was absent, but I think they will catch up. I haven't skipped a day of water changes since I got back, and I've still been feeding them baby brine shrimp. I can't get them to eat crushed pellets, the New Life Spectrum Grow formula. They pick at the bits but then spits it out, but I have other dry foods I could try. Any tips? There are about 40 or more and I am going to move them to a 35 gallon soon. I have a few jarred since they were doing some damage to the other fry. These pictures are from 8/19/15.


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## Nessabobessa

Those are the cutest little fry with the cutest little scales and ventrals!


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## Nimble

You won't see any Koi showing for quite a while, so don't be discouraged. Supposedly, the Koi pattern doesn't come in until they're six months old, or so.


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## Tree

Meep look how CUTE THEY ARE!


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## InStitches

adorable!!!

For dry foods - have you tried maybe Fry Crack or those Gold Pearls things? I think they are sold on Aquabid


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## lovelybettas

Thank you guys! I got most of them to start eating the pellets. Does anyone know a reliable place online that sells grindal worms? Or someone on this site? I found very few listings and I'm scared of possible parisites...


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## Isabella15

They are adorable! Subbing.


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## lovelybettas

*Update!*

This is an extremely old thread but I wanted to do a final update. If you read the first few days of this thread you'll know over half the fry died out for an unknown reason but I actually still have quite a few survive! Although I only have about 4 males and the other 60 or so are females. Here are some current photos.


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## Veolfa

Such an excellent read.


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## alecmerkel

Cute little buggers!! Wish I would've kept up from the beginning.

How are your breeders looking?


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## Overprotective Fish Lover

Wow so pretty! Love them


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## liamthen

wow very beautiful offspring there, gratz!!


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## Sadist

Wow, congratulations! I even like the non koi ones with the dark edges to the fins. Gorgeous!


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## lovelybettas

Thanks everyone! Some of the babies are up for sale on aquabid, here is the link to all my auctions: 
http://goo.gl/beOiip


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## Sadist

If only I had room! Good luck!


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