# Fish hanging out at bottom, used to be swimming all around..



## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Housing 
What size is your tank? 5.5 gal
What temperature is your tank? ~80 deg F
Does your tank have a filter￼? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish￼ live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? small pellets 
How often do you feed your betta fish? 2x a day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? every 3 weeks
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 75%
What type of additives￼ do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Water conditioner, Cycle

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

All below are in safe or normal ranges, water is hard
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH: 7.5
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment￼
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? possible bloat
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? stays at bottom, no energy
When did you start noticing the symptoms￼? week ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? changed water, stopped feeding for a couple days, no change, also turned off filter incase the current was too strong
Does your fish have any history￼ of being ill? no, hes new!
How old is your fish (approximately)? no idea. got him 3 weeks ago from a aquarium store.









Current picture of the fish, sitting on the bottom


So, we got our son a betta fish to distract him from a small surgical procedure he had to have on his thumb... 1st fish died, lasted 3 weeks.. not sure why... he was in a 1.5 gal, filtered tank. anyway, fast forward to fish #2, bigger tank (5.5 gals), heater, filter, java moss. put in the proper stuff for the water, doing everything right (you would think) tested the water chemistry, its fine... water temp is steady, ph is good.. blah blah.. but now fish number 2 is acting all lazy and hanging out on the rocks at the bottom.. not cheerfully swimming all about like he was the first week or so. googling stuff will make your head spin as it could be 1 of 10 things and everyone has different opinions on what to do.. 

so, im thinking it might be bloat, no reason it would be, we dont over feed.. he doesnt LOOK visibly bloated... but what else could it be? he looks fine, no fungus or anything. going to try not feeding him for 2-3 days.. we have probably about $100 in all this fish gear for a $5-10 fish.. i feel like i have a brown thumb when it comes to this. i just changed his water today thinking he might perk up.. but no.. at the bottom he sits.

can't take another crying boy and a fish funeral in the back yard... any ideas?


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Here is a picture of his whole set up if it helps.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Another picture of the fishy in question.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am wondering if that wood decoration is safe? I am not experienced with that because i don't have them. But i guess if he was fine for first 2 wks and if you had that decoration in the tank then it not the decoration that give the problem.I read a lot of thread when decorations are toxic, so i am not sure about yours. Again if it in the tank for 3 wk and he was fine first 2 wks i guess it safe and its not the reason he is sick
No matter how big the tank even 10 gall you still need to do weekly water changes. So i can think it might be the reason he can get sick
You said that you already did water change and it didn't help.
For now while he is in 5.5 gall you can lower the water since he is lethargic so it will be easier for him to swim to the top for the air.
Or you can put him back in the smaller tank.
I would really try to do more water change and see if it helps. Do 25 % water changes every 30 min about 5 times. Then do full water change after that and see if it helps. 
And when you change the water you need to acclimate him very slowly to the new water temp so you don't shock him with the water temp difference. 
You wrote that you add water conditioner and something else? Now when you make changes ADD ONLY WATER CONDITIONER Do not add anything else for the cycling.
I really think he is sick because something wrong with the water so i would do all water changes.
Sorry i have to walk my dog and its late so i had 2 min to write , as my husband hate to see me on line so forgive me for mistakes and repeating overs ...
But if you still need my help ill be back to check if anyone else helping.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi turborave and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry about your fish. The setup looks fine, especially like the moss-covered mopani wood. I'm thinking that it's a water quality issue that could be causing your guy's problem. As Anhel said, you probably need to do weekly water changes. Even though the water looks clear and clean, the real culprit is invisible ammonia buildup that can really only be effectively reduced with water changes. Since you have a filter, a water change of about 30-40% a week would be just fine but I wouldn't really recommend anything less.

The bloating could be any number of things: constipation, internal parasites, internal bacterial infection or a combination of all three. What I'd recommend is getting a small bucket to put the wood and the java moss in and then dosing the tank with API General Cure. First do about a 50% water change, then remove any carbon from the filter and add half a packet of General Cure every 48 hours until you see improvement in his bloating OR until a week has passed. Ideally, if you could remove the gravel so you could see if he's pooing, that would be great but I understand if that's a lot of work. 

Anhel, the other thing being added is Cycle, which is a bacterial additive. It's fine to use that although don't use any while treating with meds since General Cure just kills beneficial bacteria anyway.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

thanks for the replies.. my test strips show that the ammonia levels are fine.. i guess i will try the API General Cure stuff.. 

going to try a pea this morning as he hasnt had any food the last couple days.. if i lower his water, the water level wouldnt be good for the heater and then the temperature would drop.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

blanched a pea, got the skin off... tried to give it to him but it all just kind of fell to the bottom around him and he didnt seem interested in it.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

also, i saw him swim up to the top a few times and he definitely looks swollen where his little side fins are. and some silver/white is showing through on the bottom looks like hes holding a small marble in his stomach.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Here is a picture of how he looked when we first got him.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Here is another pic.. i know im putting up alot, but im hoping someone will see something in one of these that will help.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

and another... :/


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I think he god even more bloated? 
If you can get General Cure like Sakura recommended it a good medication for internal problems. If you can get the gravel out so you can monitor his poop. If poo is white,clear, broken white, stringy wormy shape meaning it internal parasites or internal bacteria which General Cure also helps.

I think you said that you took the filter out ? Sakura give you advice for water changes with the filter in , but if don't use the filter i would do 50% and about 25 % water changes, 30 min apart. And then do General cure the way Sakura said. 
Not sure if you ever used the sitphone to vacuum the gravel? It a lot of stuff under that gravel gathered for 3 wks and especially that he is not eating and food that you tried sink the the bottom. So when you change him if you can take the gravel out and rinse it , i think its a good idea. 
Don't give him the pea , a lot of people don't recommend it , and if he refusing food he will refuse it any way, and it will just contaminate the water. Usually frozen daphnia is recommended for constipation and it also has a lot of nutrients in it and good for the immune system. 

I hope your stores carry General Cure API. 
Also if you go out to the stores buy Epsom salt. Just good to have it on hands in case you need to use it. It not expansive . You can find it not at the pet store but at any pharmacy department. It 100% Magnesium sulfate(no dyes,perfume or additives ), just unscented Epsom salt. It good to have it on hands when you have betta with internal problems betta. Its is works as laxative when betta is constipated.
Please give us update


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Got the API General Cure.. put that in.. took the wood and moss out.. filter is still off..


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Then do the water changes, take the gravel out so you can monitor the poo and General Cure. Epsom salt i recommended just in case not for now. But if you have a betta it always good to have it on hands. I hope he will feel better
And i hope your son doing good after the procedure.


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## grammymary (Aug 7, 2013)

You said you're testing with test strips? The strips aren't very reliable. You may want to get the liquid testers (API is a good one) or even take a sample to your local fish store and they will test it for you. Although, Pet Smart uses the strips so I wouldn't go there. The problem may be your water, afterall, even though the strips show it's within limits. Good luck!


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

i had done almost a full water change on thursday sept 12th, i filled a cup with this tank water and netted him out and put him in there. used a siphon vacuum to get out the water, about 75% maybe a little more. i used a separate 5 gal bucket to put the new water in about 4 hours before to put the water condition it and get it up to temperature. i rinsed out the filter in the sink, filled the tank back up about half gallon at a time from the bucket, when it was almost full i turned the filter and heater back on, waited for the water to get back up to ~80deg f, then poured the old water cup with the fish in it, in the net so the old water ran through and i was left with just the fish, put the fish back in the water. he was already acting like this before we changed the water. the food pellets we had been giving him were just dropped in dry, i did not know about the soaking recommendation... it seemed like he would wait a while anyway before he would really go after them and eat them. 

i just can't imagine its this hard to keep a fish alive and this is the second one in a row that has had trouble after only a few weeks, and the first one didnt make it. :-(


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Some questions:

1) What brand of pellets do you feed him?
2) You said you feed him 2x per day. How much do you feed each time?

As Anhel and Sakura have already noted, increased water changes would be good. This will help remove toxins and bacteria from the water.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

They were the top fin brand betta pellets
2 pellets, 2x a day, once at around 6 30 am, then at 5pm


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

this is the water conditioner i have been using:

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752263&f=PAD%2FpsNotAvailInUS%2FNo

Top Fin Betta Water Conditioner

Instantly treats tap water, removes harmful chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. Reduces the effects of ammonia. Protects fish with a healthy slime coat.
Use during new aquarium setup and after water changes. Measuring cap included. 
Ingredients: Water, EDTA, PVP, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Thiosulfate, Glycerin.
Instructions: Use when adding tap water to new or existing bowls or aquariums along with Top Fin Bacteria Supplement (sold separately). For best results, mix Betta Water Conditioner with tap water prior to adding to bowl or aquarium.
Dosage (for new aquarium and after water changes): For each 1 U.S. gallons, use 5 mL 
Made in the USA.
4 oz bottle treats 24 gallons


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

so, i just did a 100% water change.. took the gravel out.. still fasting.. will see where we end up in a couple days.. if he poops or what.. wife thinks it might be dropsy.. the scales around its swollen stomach are poking out a bit...


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

we have a carton of aquarium salt and we are contemplating using it.. thoughts?


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

and now reading about epsom salts.. and why is there two sides to every treatment? its either this is going to work, or you are hurting him more than healing.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Here is a short video of what he does while laying there.. its pitiful.. is he laboring? i dont remember how much their mouth and gills normally move while they are resting..

http://youtu.be/F05W0NvA4Ik


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

The photo in post #20.... Your wife is right. See how the scales are stuck out like a pinecone? That's Dropsy....

Dropsy is a symptom, not a disease/illness in itself. So there are two parts to it:
a) Reduce the fluid retention and bloating, and 
b) Treat the underlying cause.

Unfortunately, by the time dropsy occurs, the internal organs are affected, and beginning to shut down.....

For the bloating and fluid retention, I recommend Epsom salt. 

(I do NOT recommend aquarium salt. It contains sodium, which will cause further fluid retention and bloating.) 

If you don't have Epsom salt, it's available at supermarkets and pharmacies. (But not petstores.) Look for 100% magnesium sulfate. No dyes, perfumes or additives. It is not expensive.

Day 1:
 Add 3 teaspoons Epsom salt to one gal of conditioned water.
Stir/shake until the Epsom salt is completely dissolved.
Using this premixed treatment water, make 25% water changes every 15 min for 1 hour today.
(Total dosage Epsom salt at end of Day 1: 1 tsp/gal)
------------------------------
Day 2: Do a 50% water change using this premixed treatment water.
(Total dosage Epsom salt at end of Day 2: 2 tsp/gal)
------------------------------ 
Day 3:
Put a small amount of tank water into a cup. Add 0.5 teaspoons Epsom salt for each gallon that your tank holds. (Ie: Add 2.5 teaspoons Epsom salt for a 5 gal tank.) Stir until the salt is completely dissolved.... Slowly pour the solution into the tank over the course of 30 minutes.
Wait at least 1 hour. Repeat the above step.
(Total dosage Epsom salt at end of Day 3: 3 teaspoons per gallon)
------------------------------
Day 4: Do not do a water change.
Day 5 and onward: Do 50% water changes every other day. Continue using the premixed treatment solution that contains 3 teaspoons Epsom salt/gal.
(Total dosage Epsom salt maintained at 3 tsp/gal) 

For the underlying condition, I recommend two different products: an antibiotic combined with an antiparasitical.

*KANAPLEX (kanamycin)* is the antibiotic that I recommend. It's one of the few antibiotics that treats a wide range of bacteria, and it treats internal as well as external conditions. It's not available at all petstores, so call around before heading out. If you can't get it locally, it's available online.


Metronidazole and praziquantel are the antiparasiticals that I recommend. They're available in medications such as *API General Cure* or *Tetra Parasite Guard*.

You can use Kanaplex and General Cure/Parasite Guard at the same time.

Good luck....


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Some good info.. what about filtering? should that be off? and if hes in a 1 gallon container, he will not be having a heater... if i am reading correctly, for day 1 and 2 hes in a 1 gal, or does he stay in his tank the whole time? we have a 5.5 gallon tank that hes in now. the heater is the height of the tank.. and still no food?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

It doesn't matter which tank he's in. 

But antibiotics will kill the beneficial bacteria that are on a filter. So you either want to treat in a different tank or remove the media from the filter.

You can run the filter (without the media) during treatment, if you want. Or you can turn off (or remove) the filter. Also, you'll want to remove any live plants, since the medications can affect them also.

A small tank requires more frequent water changes than a large one due to the faster buildup of toxins and bacteria.

If he's currently in the 5.5 gal tank, and is comfortable there, I would just leave him there unless you want to keep the filter media and/or live plants in place. You can lower the water level so it's easier for him to reach the surface.

If he's willing to eat, I would feed him small, frequent meals. 

If you can get mosquito larvae, that would be ideal. This is their natural diet, so they provide good nutrition and are easily digestible.

Also, you can put plastic food wrap (Saran/Glad wrap) over the top of his tank. This will increase the humidity level, and make it easier for him to breathe. Be sure to leave at least several inches of air so he can breathe.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Do we do the medications while doing the Epsom salts stuff? Or wait to do that until after the 3 days of Epsom treatment? Once again thanks for the info.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

You can use Epsom salt with medications.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

Ok, we have started the hour of mixing 1 gal of epsom salts water in with his tank water.. used 5 teaspoons in the 1 gallon... 

also, this (see image below) showed up in the bottom of his tank, not really sure what it is.. at first i thought his eye ball fell out! AHH! since his eyes have gotten a little poppy too  could it be poop? we tried feeding him an omega pellet.. but he had no interest.









for scale, this is at the bottom of a bathroom dixie cup, about 1.5 - 2" across.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, it's poop. 

Um, the directions I gave said to use 3 teaspoons Epsom salt stirred into 1 gal of water. Use this to do four 25% water changes today.... (See Day 1 directions.)

But since he has dropsy already and his eyes are starting to bulge too, go ahead and keep using what you've prepared. It'll get him into the full dosage of Epsom salt slightly faster, which is OK.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

We went back to the store where we got him with the intention of getting the other medicine.. we talked to a guy there and told him our situation. he offered to take the fish back and try to get him healthy, and we could pick out a new one for our son, he was with us and he found a new friend and they set him aside for us. we came back with sick fish and they said he had severe dropsy and popeye and they would do what they could to help him out and they have a lot tools and experience at their disposal. its really nice to have a store that cares!

i am cleaning out and setting up the tank tomorrow... this time using spring water. will pick up new fishy sometime during the day and he will be in place when our son gets home from school  thanks everyone for your help and advice, lets hope the 3rd time is a charm.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Make sure you disinfect the tank well though so other fish don't get sick. If you need any tips on the tank disinfection let us know , i have good link that can help you. 
I don't know why you want to use spring water though. Even in 5 gall you need weekly water changes, wipe the walls, swish/ring filter media in the tank water. So its a lot of water and spring water is ok to use if you really having a problem with your tap, but if your tap water is safe then its really better to go with the tap . Did you have chance to check you tap water and see if it safe? They can do it for you in the store for free. Just ask them to give you all parameters instead of telling them its ok.

Also in my opinion when you bring new fish you always need to quarantine it . You always have change to buy sick fish . So if you keep it for a wk or two without the gravel or any decorations so you don't need to disinfect it again if this one will be sick. There is a chance that sometimes fish can show/develop the symptoms later. 

And before you put the fish in make sure you take the time to acclimate him from the store water to new water. Because what ever new water you going to use can be very different from the store water and you want him to get used to it slowly so you don''t shock him.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

We cleaned the tank and everything that was in it with a bleach and water solution.. thoroughly rinsed. and using a different, adjustable flow filter. 

we went to spring water because that is the only thing that was the same from fish 1 to fish 2.. we changed tanks, heater, filter ect... but we used our tap water (conditioned) for both... a 2.5 gal jug of spring water is only about $1.50, if thats going to keep our fish alive for a few years, then im ok with that.


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

what % of water should i be changing weekly? i thought the benefit of a bigger tank was less frequent changes, as well as the fishes happiness..

we have java moss in there, as well as the marina s10 filter that has 2 filters, one specifically to help with ammonia..

http://www.amazon.com/Marina-A285-S10-Power-Filter/dp/B0032G8TPW

/\ that one..


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Be careful with porous stones or anything porous, i would not use the bleach. Otherwise bleach is good for disinfection. I would also leave everything in the sun or just dry out for a week to neutralize the bleach.

Tank size. I keep almost all my bettas in 2.5 gall . I have one 5 gall and 3 one gall tanks. Never had filters though. And my bettas live up to 5 years. So the size don't matter , the water changes i think its matter. You can keep 2 bettas in the same tank, feed the same , change the water the same way, but the life expectancy still would be different. I have fish that i bought at the same time ,one is 4 years old now ,another one died 2 years ago. 
No matter how big is you tank you need to do weekly water changes (50%) is good, vacuum the gravel with every water change, wipe the walls, rinse/swish filter media in the tank water weekly. Check the water parameters daily.

Did you use those live plants in your tank with the sick fish?

Also when you bring the new fish make sure that you acclimate him for about 2-3 hrs because the water from the store and spring water can be very different and you don't want to shock him with the difference. Do you need instructions on acclimation?


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

"Be careful with porous stones or anything porous, i would not use the bleach. Otherwise bleach is good for disinfection." 

that statement isnt clear.. you would or wouldnt use bleach for disinfecting a tank? it doesnt really matter at this point because the tank has been set up for 2 days now.. fish is doing well. 

We got a new java moss with the new fish.. 

floated the fish in a bag for about 1 and half hours, then put him in the new water, did not add the store water to my water, as i said its been about 2 days and he is doing well. 

a 50% water change weekly seems excessive to me.. if you check the water and levels are still fine, ammonia, ect.. why change it?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I want to give you the link that is from Oldfishlady she is very knowledgeable so check out her recommendation. The water might be seems clear and the parameters are good , but its a lot of stuff gathering under the gravel over the time and i think can give them infections. I am glad your betta doing good. 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115758
And about disinfection i still want to give you the link that i like , even though you don't need it any more for now and hopefully will not but i think it good to know. 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=2036738


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## turborave (Sep 13, 2013)

This morning he made a bubble nest  the other 2 never did..


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

awww so cute!!! Sorry i don't want to spoil your excitement though but if betta made bubble nest is not meaning that he is healthy or unhealthy its just natural instinct, perhaps he is one of the lucky buy I have betta that is 5 years old and he did it may be a few times in his life. Actually out of 10 bettas , the younger one is about 1.8 year old the rest are older , may be a few of them doing bubble nests. I am telling you that because i don't want you mistakenly judge about betta health by bubble nest.
I hope you and your son can enjoy him! Keep us updated


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