# outside experiment hm x hm



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Since I've moved to an even hotter place in oz I've decided to try an outside spawn. The water temp pretty much stays around 28 outside which is handy. 

The pair is nothing special. The male was an absolute last resort if my other pairs for my melano fall through. He's a steel with red wash and fell victim to fin curling in my ultra hard water in my previous place so he's ugly as can be

Heres an older photo of him as the fin curling started happening. Now he's an embarrassment to me lol. But since the water here's way softer his Fry shouldn't curl up...I hope :shock:










I've got no pic of the female and I have no idea how she ended up with me...but I'm pretty sure she's a sibling cull. I gave a bunch of culls to the people who shipped my fish up to me and maybe they snuck her in accidentally lol . but she looks a lot like the other females from that spawn and if I end up with melano and pk we will know for sure. 
She's just a metallic royal blue with red wash, nothing special but not keen to put my best ones into the experiment

Anyway here's where they live. Just a 34l plastic tub sitting in the shade










And babies! I'm gonna leave the father with the fry partly to see what happens but mainly out of laziness... I'm currently feeding the fry vinegar eels but when the tub gets all kinds of greeblies starting to grow in it I might cut back on their feedings.


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## Kyle15 (Apr 22, 2015)

Going to follow


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

Ohh interesting. Can we see the mum?


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

YIPEEEE!!! I LIVE FOR YOUR LOGS!!! And the fish you have of course! ;-) 

I really wish I lived in your area to take a lot of fish off your hands LOL I just love the way you breed and care for your fish, my favorite breeder I know! I must say, I am quite jealous of the temperature outside too! Beautiful male.  I'm a bit overly excited if you haven't noticed


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

aww thanks blu I really appreciate that, I try my best! How are your fish goin and your awesome aquabid boy?

Lol the temp here is probably the only thing to be jealous of, I'm in a little mining town in the middle of nowhere with only target as my shopping outlet haha so heaps of time to play with my fish :-D I've got a few doozies lined up for spawing

Fry are 4 days and still going strong, water temp was 24 this morning which made me nervous considering they are 28-30 during the day but they seemed to handle the swings fine. Yesterday they also got an 80% water change which made them quite happy
I've been a little bit inspired to set up an aquaponics system in the tub and grow some herbs as well to help water quality and encourage small creatures into the tub. Can't go wrong!

Here's mum, I think she's camera shy because she knows she doesn't have any good looks. After staring at her for ages I'm not sure that she even is a sib to the male but only the fry results will tell us the answer .


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

My fish are fine.  I plan to move by the beginning of 2016, so I'll be getting rid of the extra tanks I don't need. The rest of the tanks are staying with me for breeding. The male is doing great! Did I also mention to you his female arrived awhile back, too? 
My fry... Growing VERY slowly. I think I'll need to rehome them as soon as possible. Their sort of becoming a hassle, I don't have time for many water changes and their just too small. I think they'll be better off finding a new home from members here. I just need to focus on school and getting ready to move. Breeding can wait, unfortunately 

The female is gorgeous, too. I love all shades of blue!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Yay that your female arrived! Yeah fair enough you def don't need more any more hassle from needy as fry. But can't wait to see a spawn log once you get back into breeding!! :-D 
Are your leftover fry from you 9 shades of blue spawn? I reckon you won't have a hard time rehoming those guys, just send me some in inconspicuous water bottles and no one will even know!

Im quite nervous because I'll be out of town for a few days next month (going to see Taylor swift wooop!) And I'll have to leave all my babies in the care of my partner... I'm going to try and get them onto dry food asap so there's less things for him to screw up but in two weeks I don't like my chances very much...

Fry are still going well, they seem smaller than the fry from my inside spawns even though they are older. Probably because they aren't getting fed every time I walk past them like the others. But I've just been dumping BBS and ve in once a day.
Dad has been stealing the BBS for himself and I contemplated taking him out but then I saw a mozzy lurking around so I decided to leave him in so I don't end up with swarms of them


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yup, those little guys! Hehe. I'll send you all of them in a 5 gallon jug of water if I need to. 

Taylor Swift! Lucky! I hope you have fun! Glad these little guys are growing up good too!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Pulled dad out today because he has been stealing all the BBS. These fry are quite a bit smaller than my inside ones but I'm hoping now that dads out they will start catching up. They've also only had 1 water change so far compared to the daily ones that the insiders get so that may play a part in it as well.

Tub is starting to grow algae which should attract all kinds of little creatures for them


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yay, for algae! Can't wait to see the outcome of these fry!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

seems to be a bit less fry when I checked them this morning....but they are def growing bigger on their meager bbs shots... The outside temperature recently has been around 41 degrees and its not even summer yet...but the fry still arent upset about it, hopefully it doesnt get much hotter

Also mum died  she got dropsy


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Aww. I'm so sorry! I'd give you a hug if I could! The only thing I can give you are internet hugs though. -hugs- :-( I'm so sorry.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Aw thanks!! Im surprised how much she grew on me, but hopefully her babies grow up nice and strong 

In 2 days all my fishes lives will be left in my partners hands for about 5 days.... I feel like these outsiders are going to get the short end of the stick, but Ive pretty much written a 2 page essay for him on what to do lol so hopefully he doesnt manage to kill anything


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

The plants in these guys tub are growing quite well and they now have an endless supply of snails in the tank, and heaps of algae  
They are still getting bbs

Babies are getting bigger, not as big as the insiders but they are starting to show their irids


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

They are going to be stunners!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Fully forgot about an update for these guys, nothing new except they are quite a bit bigger now and are easier to spot, I'll try and scoop some out and take some piccies tomorrow

Still smaller than the insiders but I cant really blame them lol


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Heres 2 babies that I managed to catch from their tub



And heres their extremely humble abode, growing unlimited hair algae. That other frilly plant is doing really well outside too, some guy pulled it out of a creek in the park and gave to me... so if anyone knows what it is Id be keen to know lol



This baby thought it could take on that ant that fell in but soon changed its mind


And one of my hairs fell into the tub and ruined the shot... but its still kinda cute so I'll put it here anyway


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Cute and stunning shots!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Getting bigger


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Getting even bigger now. This boy is the same fish as the last photo in the previous thread. Hes a bit of a bully and got to work chasing his sisters around as soon as I scooped them up..



He has no respect for anyone


And heres his sister


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## dcg (Nov 5, 2015)

> He has no respect for anyone


Nice catch! With that photo she can now proceed with charges. ))


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Haha hes been caught red handed! She will be glad to know he going to be leaving to go in the big kid tub soon


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

SO PRETTY! GIMME! I really wish I lived near you. Hehe, taking to many bettas all at once. I'll become a evil betta master mind :lol: And cool new avatar ^_^


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Haha if you lived near me I would literally be throwing them at you!
I rediscovered the joys of photoshop the otherday and now I cant stop playing on it lol

2 weeks until Im off to nz so Im going to have to pull these guys inside while Im away so the pet sitter can find them and also I dont want any random cold snaps. Im quite pleased with how they survived considering theyve been left to fend for themselves and their tub is pretty much a solid block of plants and algae


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

Love that Picutre! Too funny! What a jerk!


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

i see the fry has their father pattern on caudal, i always like that kind of pattern on the caudal


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Thanks  I quite like it too. Ive found a problem, it looks like the big male has started fin curling which is weird since my water is so soft. Maybe curl tendencies are genetic because the other hm spawn has no curling... or maybe because hes gone from having sunlight to no sunlight. When I get back I might give him some sun and see if that helps

Also this spawn has been pulled inside, all look like the same colour as the blue/red female. Theres one runt that looks like it may get yellow fins too but its very runty and small


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Hes been picking fights in the tub so Ive jarred him and have him in a bit of sunlight with ial to see if I can stop the curl... fingers crossed but I dont think my chances are too high


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

He's on beautiful fish nonetheless


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

this is a promising fish to be a breeder


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## dcg (Nov 5, 2015)

trilobite said:


> Maybe curl tendencies are genetic because the other hm spawn has no curling...


Yes, the general opinion is that curling has to do with environment.



> Theres one runt that looks like it may get yellow fins too but its very runty and small


Also, the male in the pictures seems like a non red to me, having no red and showing pale yellow in fins and ventrals. I see this to other photos as well so no wonder that you have a yellow finned there. The mother was a non red and it seems that the father also carries non red genes.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

dcg said:


> Yes, the general opinion is that curling has to do with environment.


Yeah originally I thought this was environmental as the parents of the spawn were raised in hard water and a lot of them curled, but this fish is raised in very soft water (3gh,3kh,6.4 pH) and none of the other spawns have started to curl up and they are in the same water. The only differences that happened with this spawn are they were outside and that the father had heavy curling, so I think it might be one of those that are causing it. Curling happened once he was taken inside and out of the sun



> Also, the male in the pictures seems like a non red to me, having no red and showing pale yellow in fins and ventrals. I see this to other photos as well so no wonder that you have a yellow finned there. The mother was a non red and it seems that the father also carries non red genes.


Yep the grandmother was nonred  

Due to its recessive nature I had none show in the first gen, but second generation allowed them to come back. This suggests that the mother of this spawn was likely one of my culls after all (she did have red, just hard to see), and was infact an ugly sister of the male lol
I also found this happening in F2 of other spawns shes done with different males, like the hmpk who have non red popping up f2 again and also spawning other hm siblings from her original spawn.


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## dcg (Nov 5, 2015)

I looked hard at the pictures of mom again, and she did seem to had some red in her ventrals, but strangely the caudal looked typically non red. Anyways, she was a carrier, the male had to be non red geno too, so here are you enjoying about 25% of non red fries.

PS: All things being equal, I also like go for one non red parent, just to be sure I will run into non reds again later on.


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

i just read all the convo about non red, and at couple more threads about non red, still somehow have a boggled brain over them, lol maybe because my brain are full of red!! Please enlighten me about these NR genes, how to spot them and how are their application in selective breeding


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## dcg (Nov 5, 2015)

Non red genes make the fish look more or less yellow where it otherwise would have been red. So a solid red fish will be solid yellow, a blue body red finned fish will be a mustard gas if the non red genes kick in.

Non red genes are recessive so:

non red x non red => 100% non red fries.
non red x normal => 100% non red geno fries (you can't see it, but they carry the genes).
non red x non red geno (carriers) => 50% non red fries + 50% non red geno
non red geno x non red geno => 25% non red + 50% non red geno + 25% normal

The reason people are not taking the easy way non red x non red is because yellow tends to wash out (to be more pale) if you are not bringing new blood in.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

An update on old curly


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Curly is lovely! He's grown to be quite the looker! I don't know why, but sometimes the look of curled fins get to me. In a good way.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Haha Im glad he has one person liking him! he definitely has the personality to make up for it at least.
I combined the rest of his spawn with my others before I left thinking Id be able to find them again easily...but I cant lol so his brothers and sisters are still a mystery. I should "hopefully" be able to find them once I start pulling and jarring everyone, I know there was one other who had the same colour that curly has


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Well if you find his siblings you'll know where to report hehe. Oh and if it's not to hard of work, more pictures of lovely Curly? Lol. He seriously is catching onto me.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Haha mission accomplished! He likes posing for the camera so taking pics of him is quite easy compared to most of the others


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Wow. I know I have said this again and again, but I seriously need to move where you are... Curly is pulling my heart strings! Thank you for the outstanding photos, that I may stare at all day.


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## dcg (Nov 5, 2015)

trilobite said:


> Haha mission accomplished! He likes posing for the camera so taking pics of him is quite easy


Of course is easy to take pictures of him, especially when you take him out and lay him on the laptop screen like that.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Haha shhh! dont tell them my secrets!!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

No worries Blu :-D Curly is a fun guy to snap photos of


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## A Betta Future (Mar 14, 2016)

Dad is beautiful


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

How's all your fish doing in this log?


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Curlys still curlin
But I found a sibling when sorting out runts :-D

Here he is smiling at the camera
View attachment 758065


And telling off a runt for being small
View attachment 758081


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Cute! :-D


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## Rennie Sky (Feb 27, 2016)

I love following these! Such a shame about Curly, really a beautiful fish.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Im so happy for Curly, he managed to find a home despite his silly fins :-D


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yay! So glad he found a home  Otherwise I would have to literally make myself come to Australia just to snatch him... Hehe.


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