# Warning About Live Black Worms



## Sakura8

In light of my own predicament with my betta Train, I feel compelled to warn my fellow betta owners about live black worms.

Last week, I bought what I was told were live bloodworms and fed them to Train. That same night, I noticed he had a very large blockage that was literally making his belly pointed. A week in 3 tsps of epsom salt per gallon and IAL has done nothing to move this mass out of his system. He will most likely need to be euthanized.

Further research on google led me to discover that the worms I was sold were not bloodworms but were in fact black worms. And that's where everything went wrong for poor Train.

Here is what The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein has to say:

"Bettas may engorge on black worms, resulting in gastric distress and sometimes death. Many aquarists cut them into pieces with a razor blade before feeding them to bettas. Black worms that survive partial ingestion can tear the stomachs of small fish, killing them." (pg 93, Goldstein)

If you purchase live worms, do double-check to make sure they are bloodworms. If you intend to feed black worms to your bettas, feed only one or two at the very most and probably do as the book suggests, cutting them into pieces. 

I don't want anyone else to have to go through what Train and I are going through. Be very careful when purchasing and feeding live worms.


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## LittleBettaFish

I've always thought it was bloodworms that are said to damage the stomachs of fish. I think it's apisto owners that don't like feeding them. 

With that said, I feed live blackworms to my wilds, killies and natives, and have done for nearly two years in some instances now. My splendens are also fed blackworms from time to time. My wilds have literally stuffed themselves on blackworms (to the point they look like balloons) and I have never had any harm come from it. This includes juveniles. 

Sad that your betta is very sick though. Have you thought about doing a fishy autopsy on him if it comes to euthanasia to see if it indeed the blackworms.


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## Sakura8

That's a good idea, LittleBettaFish, I hadn't thought of that. I doubt I can perform an autopsy myself, both because of being squeamish and for lacking experience, but I think my veterinary clinic would be willing to do so. 

I'm very glad your fish haven't suffered any side effects from eating blackworms. They must be happy fish, getting to eat livefoods all the time.  I fed a single worm each to my other bettas as a treat that same night and now one of them refuses to eat his normal food and instead looks hopefully at me. I guess he's holding out for the live worms.


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## Olympia

Any kind of worm that can survive "partial digestion" is a threat. Once inside the stomach they can start thrashing around, doing damage. People are warning about both kinds of worms these days.

Poor Train.  It looks horrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## True Indigo

Great to know and I truly hope the best for your betta.  I've looked up the risks of live and frozen food and eliminated what I could of potential problems by just sticking to frozen brine shrimp and live mosquito larvae.


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## thekinetic

Good knowledge, take comfort that Train didn't die in vain but so others wouldn't suffer his fate. I'm sure he is smiling for you under that rainbow bridge.


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## Sakura8

Thank you for the extra info, Olympia. I think no more live worms for sure. Really bites that I can't culture mosquito larvae.

Thanks, kinetic and True Indigo, I appreciate your thoughts.


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## lillyandquigly

so sorry


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## Rosso1011

So sorry about Train, Sakura. It really is a tragic fate that you will have had to lose him like this. I am very thankful that you are sharing this information with others so that we can avoid feeding something that can be so harmful to our bettas.


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## Sakura8

Thank you, Rosso. I'm glad there is a silver lining to Train's dark cloud. I honestly had no idea feeding live worms could be so dangerous so I definitely want everyone to know the risks beforehand.


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## Bombalurina

Poor Train, and poor Sakura.  Shame on places that mislable and fail to educate employees.


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## Sakura8

Thanks Bomba. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten the worms if I'd known they were black worms. And now, no more live worms at all. They get frozen food and they'll like it.


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## Twilight Storm

Sorry to hear that Sakura.... I hope Train gets better ASAP. Thank you for the warning about blackworms. 

I think I will stick with frozen or freeze dried assorted creepy crawlies to feed to my adults too.


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## lillyandquigly

ya same:C


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## tpocicat

I've fed black worms to my bettas and community fish for years. I've never had a problem with them. I only feed maybe two worms once a week, and my fish love them.
So sorry to hear about Train *hugs*


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## Sakura8

Thank you, Twilight and lily.

Tpocicat, I think Train may have had an underlying issue and the black worms just compounded things. I'm glad to know that your fish enjoy them and can eat them without any problems.


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## ZubinBetta

Sakura, can you make this thread into a sticky?


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## Sakura8

Zubin, I talked to the other moderators and yes, they said it should be stickied. I think it could be a good place to discuss the pros and cons of feeding live foods.


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## Atena

I am so sorry Sakura. thank you for sharing that info, I am new Betta owner and I had no idea. your experience will help many. It is amazing how we can just not think of something and it ends up being dangerous for the fishes. I am heartbroken for you. 

*Hugs*


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## Sakura8

Thank you very much, Atena. *hugs back* I am glad to know Train's death has a silver lining in that people are now more aware of the risks of live foods. I have to admit, I was pretty dismayed to read that live worms can potentially survive ingestion.


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## lelei

_Yes, Sakura Thanks so much for sharing that information, I was recently looking into buying the Frozen Bloodworms for our Sammy, and came upon BlackWorms, and was wondering if ok, (I didnt order them) was unsure in either case, tried the Freeze dried ones, that's a no go, and also heard they expand which can cause bloat. _

_But will be sure to stay away..just in case. Very sorry about Train(huggs))_


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## Sakura8

*More Info About Black Worms*

Thank you, lelei. *hugs back*

So here are a few things I've learned about black worms.

According to The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein, they are found in raceways at trout farms and in the effluent treatment ponds of vegetable processors in California. I don't know if they are found outside of California or not. They can't live for long in their own pollutants so if you plan on feeding black worms, you must rinse them in cold, dechlorinated water each day. If the water doesn't run clear or they don't tangle into a ball, throw them out. 

Like tubifex worms, which are found in sewers and wastewater, black worms have a high risk of transmitting parasites to your fish. A good way to avoid this is to rinse the worms as noted. This purges them.

I would highly suggest cutting the worms into small pieces to avoid the possibility of them surviving ingestion and tearing the stomach of your betta. Feed only 1-2 worms at a time to avoid the engorging that happened to Train (little glutton snatched 4-6 of them off the net while I was trying to get the worms off).


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## Sena Hansler

I'm so sorry to hear Sakura!!! I was even told for mealworms, to cut their heads off. And it's true those little buggers (even just the heads) say alive for quite a while!!

ALTHOUGH I have heard more bad things about blackworms than good, but we don't have blackworms here anyways.


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## LittleBettaFish

I keep my blackworms in a small container with a sponge filter going in my room. I change their water daily using aged water from my goldfish tank and feed them fish flakes and old Indian Almond leaves. 

I always rinse my blackworms after I bring them home from the store as some stores house them in disgusting conditions. 

If they start looking poorly I chuck the whole lot out as I don't want to spread anything to my fish.

Other than that a good feed of blackworms never fails to incite spawning with my bettas, killies and natives. 

If you do feed blackworms, I would advise keeping on the health of your fish, and worm your fish every few months just in case something slips past.


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## Sena Hansler

that would make sense...for any live foods, really.


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## MrVampire181

I never have had an issue feeding them but I stopped because of the possibility of something like this happening.

Stick to the frozen foods.

If you really want live then go with daphnia. Hardy and easy to keep.


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## Sakura8

Thanks for the advice, LittleBettaFish.  It's very helpful.


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## Sena Hansler

MrVampire181 said:


> I never have had an issue feeding them but I stopped because of the possibility of something like this happening.
> 
> Stick to the frozen foods.
> 
> If you really want live then go with daphnia. Hardy and easy to keep.


I agree!!! I never had to get a culture. They just...appeared. With my plants.


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## Thebettalover1

oh my god that is so sad how is he doing now? Feed him a microwaved, peeled pea and don't feed him for 48 hours. He should be back!


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## Thebettalover1

nmf kjm,


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## FishyFishy89

Thebettalover1 said:


> oh my god that is so sad how is he doing now? Feed him a microwaved, peeled pea and don't feed him for 48 hours. He should be back!


Bettas are not vegetarians and their bodies do not process peas. Not to mention their stomachs are literally the size of their eye. A pea is much bigger than their eye.
It is best to just not feed the betta for 24 or 48hrs to reset their GI tract.


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## Pogthefish

FishyFishy89 said:


> Bettas are not vegetarians and their bodies do not process peas. Not to mention their stomachs are literally the size of their eye. A pea is much bigger than their eye.
> It is best to just not feed the betta for 24 or 48hrs to reset their GI tract.


 
Your stomach is the size of your fist


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## FishyFishy89

Pogthefish said:


> Your stomach is the size of your fist


Yes but when we eat/chew food it condenses down much smaller than what it is in our hands. That and our stomach and expand to almost three times it's original size.


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## Pogthefish

so do bettas! that is my point! BUT I shoudnt be mentionign because most people overfeed their bettas


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## FishyFishy89

Pogthefish said:


> so do bettas! that is my point! BUT I shoudnt be mentionign because most people overfeed their bettas



I and many users here support not feeding bettas peas. Size has only a small part as to why they shouldn't be fed peas.


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## Pogthefish

I disagree with feeding peas too


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## xShainax

TDP eats algae wafers,


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## Sena Hansler

Mine swam off like a litle greedy begger with one. His belly is SO full -.- Now I feed him and sneak sink some of the wafers for the poor ol' algae eater!


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## xShainax

Sena Hansler said:


> Mine swam off like a litle greedy begger with one. His belly is SO full -.- Now I feed him and sneak sink some of the wafers for the poor ol' algae eater!


I thought they were carnivores but my poor molly is lucky if he gets a small bite of it.


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## Pogthefish

I have to HIDE them from Pog lmao. My snails are lucky to get to it befre its gone!


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: oh those greedy buggers hahaha.


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## WoodenFlashlight

Oh my god! That jerk at the pet store told us that they would be fine! I am just now writing up a thread about two of our fishes we had fed black worms [we're throwing them away now.] and Pangur Ban, one of our new boys, had a 'pointed' stomach this morning. But it's gone now. Whatever caused it has moved on, his shape looks completely normal... I'm so sorry for your loss... We're going to have WORDS with that pet store man. Serious, serious words.


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## Sakura8

Wooden, did your fish look like this?
















In Train's case, he could never pass that weird pointed blockage.


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## WoodenFlashlight

She says that it looks sort of like that but smaller, a lot smaller. It never got that bad, she says, and he no longer has it. It appears he's passed it. I'd like it if you could come to the thread and tell us your opinion about it. We have a 1gallon set of water that's been treated with Aquarium salts, Stresscoat +, and Quick Cure. And, a seperate one gallon with MELAFIX in it instead of Quick Cure. Both are setting up to equalize in temperature before we change it, and we want to know if we should

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=1136216#post1136216 Here's the thread if you wouldn't mind looking, just because Pangur had close to the same thing.


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## Nasha66

is train still alive, or did you have to euthanize?


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## WoodenFlashlight

Just thought I'd mention, we found the blockage Pangur passed and it was massive, pretty much the size of the head of a sewing pin. Which is huge for a wee little Betta. I really hope Train was able to pass his, too, but if you had to Euth him, I'm terribly sorry. You have my condolences.


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## Sakura8

I'm afraid I had to euthanize him. Or rather, I couldn't do it so I had my veterinary clinic. He went for a week with that blockage never budging and I realized he must have been terribly uncomfortable. He got more lethargic as the days went on. 

Live foods can be great, especially for conditioning fish to breed. I just really wish I had done my research beforehand and known about the risks of blackworms. And, for that matter, known that what I was sold as bloodworms were really blackworms.

Wooden, wow. That does sound incredibly uncomfortable. Pangur must feel a whole lot better now.


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## noellezim

im sorry for train, thats why I like freeze dried.... I feel as though are safer, maybe not as tasty... I don't eat worms...


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## LyzzaRyzz

What exactly is daphnia? And mosquito cultures, how do you keep them from actually turning into Mosquitos? Do you have to do it outside?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sakura8

Daphnia are "water fleas." They are little crustaceous bugs of some sort that you can culture outside if you have lots of green water (algae-infested water). Mosquito larvae . . . those you have to harvest frequently or yes, they do turn into mosquitoes. You do have to culture both outside. Be aware that your city/state may have restrictions against purposefully keeping standing water and growing mosquitoes because of the West Nile virus epidemic. Otherwise:

Get a big bin of some sort (helps if it is dark colored, seems to attract the mosquitoes) and fill with dechlorinated hose water. Add lots of dead leaves and vegetation and leave in the sun for a few days until you start to see algae. Then move it into a place where it gets partial shade. You will soon see little "rafts" of mosquito eggs on the leaves. When they hatch into larvae, harvest them with a brine shrimp net. Rinse the larvae under tap water before feeding. Even if you can't use all the larvae, harvest them after a few days to prevent them from turning into mosquitoes.


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## LyzzaRyzz

Thank you!

Where do you keep them til you can use them? Can you keep them in the freezer/fridge?


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## Sakura8

You can keep them in fridge or freezer, yes. Some people buy ice cube trays and freeze the larvae that way. Just be sure to warn guests before they help themselves to ice cubes for their drinks.


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## Pogthefish

Lmao ^


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## FishyFishy89

Sakura8 said:


> You can keep them in fridge or freezer, yes. Some people buy ice cube trays and freeze the larvae that way. Just be sure to warn guests before they help themselves to ice cubes for their drinks.


hahahahhahaa
perfect comeback prank against my brother in law
tanks!


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## Sakura8

So frozen mosquito larvae ice cubes serve dual purposes: revenge/pranks and feeding bettas.


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## LyzzaRyzz

Haha! Sounds like a plan! 
How long do you wait when you first see the larvea? Three days til harvest?


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## Sakura8

As soon as you see larvae, you can harvest. In fact, the longer you wait the more chance you have of them becoming mosquitoes.


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## Pogthefish

But the pupae are easier for the fish to see and catch!


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## Sakura8

They are? I honestly don't know, I can't get mosquito larvae to grow in my yard. Too much mosquito spraying because of West Nile.


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## LyzzaRyzz

Well arent you lucky! There are mosquitoes everywhere in Rhode Island!


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## Sakura8

I'm lucky. My fish aren't. They want mosquito larvae.


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## Basement Bettas

I avoid black worms like the plague. Many betta breeders get hex.. bad.. after feeding the black worms. It is enough of an issue in many fish rooms to be an issue. i fed them and treated periodically with metronidazole.. and get resistent hex. I won't even buy from a breeder if I hear the feed the BW's


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## moonsand0wls

Maybe name and shame? Don't want others to buy the wrong stuff..
and that's so sad for you!! I hope you are okay!! *hugs*!


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## ayeasha

*how often should i feed my betta fish*

hello i'm looking for answers about my betta just got him a couple days ago and i was wanting to no how do i start my own thread so i can start getting friends on here to help me with my questions this is a very good site so glad i found it i have been doing a lot of reading on here and it has help me a lot to get to no my thumbper and tips would be great thanks so much


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## ao

bringing up an old subject. 
my local aquarium gang and I were casually discussing live black worms and the issue of the food often coming in with leeches was brought up. could it have been the leeches that kille your fish?


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## Sakura8

Leeches on the worms or mixed in with the worms? I don't think I saw leeches large enough to be seen but honestly, anything is a possibility.


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## Rachelk98

Sakura8 said:


> In light of my own predicament with my betta Train, I feel compelled to warn my fellow betta owners about live black worms.
> 
> Last week, I bought what I was told were live bloodworms and fed them to Train. That same night, I noticed he had a very large blockage that was literally making his belly pointed. A week in 3 tsps of epsom salt per gallon and IAL has done nothing to move this mass out of his system. He will most likely need to be euthanized.
> 
> Further research on google led me to discover that the worms I was sold were not bloodworms but were in fact black worms. And that's where everything went wrong for poor Train.
> 
> Here is what The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein has to say:
> 
> "Bettas may engorge on black worms, resulting in gastric distress and sometimes death. Many aquarists cut them into pieces with a razor blade before feeding them to bettas. Black worms that survive partial ingestion can tear the stomachs of small fish, killing them." (pg 93, Goldstein)
> 
> If you purchase live worms, do double-check to make sure they are bloodworms. If you intend to feed black worms to your bettas, feed only one or two at the very most and probably do as the book suggests, cutting them into pieces.
> 
> I don't want anyone else to have to go through what Train and I are going through. Be very careful when purchasing and feeding live worms.


 So Sorry! A Friend Had 2, A Boy, Squid And A Girl Sophie. That Is What She Gave Them... Squid Ate Them A Few Months B4 Sophie And He Had Gotten Big Like Ur Fish. After 2 1/2 Months, He Passed Away! After A Month, Sophie Ate Them And Got Big!! She Took Her To The Vet And She Survived! So Either Never Give Them Or Cut Into Small Pieces

Rest In Peace- Squid William!!! Red Halfmoon!


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## FishFriend9292

I only feed my fish freze dried worms.


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## TySAAAN

Ahhhhhh thats so sad!!! How is Train ? Is he okay?!

Good luck to both of you


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## Ickbeth

Would it be ok if I gave my bettas a mosquito larve once a week?


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## FirstBetta

*sorry for your loss*

Thanks for the warning. Very sorry for losing train!


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## snowflake311

I feed my Big fish live black worms. They LOVE THEM! I fed some to my betta today and my one boy Said "YUK I am not touching that" The other one loves worms he eat a few small ones. 

The problem with the worms I thought was if you get them from a bad source they can have parasites. I also read that dead worms can cause be problems for a fish and cause them to be really sick. 

I will not feed them to my bettas any more they are too big and I don't want to cut them up YUK. I will feed them to my other fish only as treats. Discus Breeders SWARE by Black Worms. That's what some feed as the main food.

"Never feed dead blackworms to your fish, as they may harbor bacteria that could cause illness."

You need to wash the worms and care for them. Worms that float are dead.


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## Aryia

I know this is an old thread and I'm sorry for digging this up again. I was just curious, were the black worms refrigerated or kept at room temperature? I've been attempting to breed them and have been feeding all my Betta with the worms. The refrigerated ones are a lot more sluggish and don't thrash around while being handled, whereas the breeding ones at room temperature thrash around a lot. Maybe the risk of injury is lowered by keeping them refrigerated?


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## Aquatail

I know this happened a year ago, but I only just saw this. I'm really sorry about Tank. SIP Tank.


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