# Rosetail betta's



## Bettas Rule

Lately I have noticed that there is a difference in opinion about Rosetail betta's. Many are misinformed about this particular tail type and it's not hard to see why when you look at the variances in type.

I found this online and wanted to share it to help educate people on rosetail betta fish. I have often stated that breeders use RT fish and that these fish are not frowned upon by serious breeders. It seems that the "hype" over RT's having bad scales ect is passed on due to misinformation. I have seen many people quote betty splendens and many view her as a wealth of knowledge on betta's. Rightly so, since she has earned her reputation with proven results in the show ring. I trust anything this woman has to say over a passed around rumor on the internet. You will have to make that choice for yourself though. In the days of copy paste, finding the truth about anything online can be a real hassle.

For me..I trust betty, she has never steered me in the wrong direction.....

http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=1641



> ROSETAIL: This is a form that came about when breeders were striving to produce more and more branching in their HM lines to increase the likelihood of HM offspring. The result was a fish with much more than the typical 4-ray HM branching; in fact in some specimens it looked as if the branching overlapped on itself, creating a flower petal effect. This inspired the term "Rosetail". There seem to be mixed opinions about the Rosetail, but I think it is a very beautiful form and definitely worth preserving. My 2005 IBC International Convention Reserve Best of Show Male was a rosetail copper. I like breeding rosetail to HMPK, you tend to get a lot of strong Halfmoon in the resulting generations.
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> EXTREME ROSETAIL: This is actually a DEFORMITY, and shouldn't be bred! The extreme rosetail appears when breeders are trying too hard to increase ray branching and not paying enough attention to the strength of form. Extreme rosetails have varying degrees of expression, but one gets skilled at identifying them if enough of them are seen. For one thing, almost all Extreme Rosetails (also called "X-factor fish") are smaller than their siblings, and seem weaker. Most of them have excessive branching and bad scales (this can look like someone has "smudged" the scales) combined with small dorsals, pale coloration, and stunted ventral fins. They are ugly fish, and they pass their deformities on to future generations if you can keep them alive long enough to spawn. It is unfortunate that a lot of inexperienced breeders see these fish and think they would be good breeding prospects because they don't know any better, especially when they are very young and look like miniature HMs!. Extreme Rosetails should be avoided at all costs! They will weaken your line.
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> FEATHERTAIL: This is a form of Rosetail where the branching extends from the top and the bottom of the ray, creating a feather-like look. This is usually associated with Extreme Rosetail fish, but there are some feathertails that do not have the inherent weaknesses and deformities of the X-factor fish.


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## BeautifulBetta

Those are all so beautiful! I reaaally like the bottom boy, holy <3
You can definitely trust Victoria, she knows exactly what she's talkin about  I was on a forum with her for a couple years a few years ago...She's an amazing woman, and has accomplished so much in the betta world


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## Bettas Rule

BeautifulBetta said:


> Those are all so beautiful! I reaaally like the bottom boy, holy <3
> You can definitely trust Victoria, she knows exactly what she's talkin about  I was on a forum with her for a couple years a few years ago...She's an amazing woman, and has accomplished so much in the betta world


I know I truly admire her and all that she has done for the betta world. That's why I listen to what she says LOL.:lol: I would love the opportunity to speak with her, she seems like she would be a very nice woman..:-D


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## BeautifulBetta

It would definitely be nice to speak with her again! I'm not sure what she's up to these days, but from what I read somewhere, shes living overseas or something. :S


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## GreenTea

Yeah she lives in Sweden now, I love the articles on her website. Definitely a must read for new betta keepers and breeders gathering information! Thanks for posting these on the RT, very informative.


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## Luimeril

okay, that bottom guy is stunning. i'd get him, RT and longfin, or not.(i'm anti-longfin. xD every HM/Delta i've owned has destroyed their tails, so.... :V).

most of the RTs i've seen are what you dub "Extreme". that's why i don't like them. :V also, a user on here has lost, i think it's three RTs, from three different spawns(not hers, but petstores, i think) to simple things, which leads me to believe that they have weaker immune systems..


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## BeautifulBetta

I heard somewhere that RT's are the result of inbreeding and such..Maybe thats why their immune systems are bad. Not sure how true that is, but thats the first thing that comes to mind lol. Its the same thing with dogs...Mutts have been proven to live longer than purebreds because of the different breeds involved.


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## Bettas Rule

BeautifulBetta said:


> It would definitely be nice to speak with her again! I'm not sure what she's up to these days, but from what I read somewhere, shes living overseas or something. :S


Yea I read that one her site too.



GreenTea said:


> Yeah she lives in Sweden now, I love the articles on her website. Definitely a must read for new betta keepers and breeders gathering information! Thanks for posting these on the RT, very informative.


I know right! She has the best site I have ever been on for betta's. I have sat and read her site for hours even taking notes LOL.



Luimeril said:


> okay, that bottom guy is stunning. i'd get him, RT and longfin, or not.(i'm anti-longfin. xD every HM/Delta i've owned has destroyed their tails, so.... :V).
> most of the RTs i've seen are what you dub "Extreme". that's why i don't like them. :V also, a user on here has lost, i think it's three RTs, from three different spawns(not hers, but petstores, i think) to simple things, which leads me to believe that they have weaker immune systems..


If EVERY single one of your long tail betta's does that, I would look into how you keep your fish. Tail biting is actually not that common and it's not that healthy either. Some breeders even consider it hereditary and say that breeding tail bitters is bad news. I wouldn't consider it coincidence that ALL of your fish do that. I am not saying you are a bad fish keeper but I have never seen someone say that all of their fish tail bite it's usually only one of them.
Good luck either way!

As for the friend with the dead RT's, one person who loses three fish is not proof to me of bad immune systems. I would blame that on bad fish keeping. I know I don't know her but my RT is VERY hardy I mean VERY hardy and I have a blue HM who I have not been able to get right since I bought him. Any overly inbred fish is gonna have problems regardless of tail structure.



BeautifulBetta said:


> I heard somewhere that RT's are the result of inbreeding and such..Maybe thats why their immune systems are bad. Not sure how true that is, but thats the first thing that comes to mind lol. Its the same thing with dogs...Mutts have been proven to live longer than purebreds because of the different breeds involved.


What I read is that they are the result of breeders only paying attention to the rays and finnage and not form. 
http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=945


> The quest for the perfect halfmoon by selectively breeding for branching and straight caudal edges has given rise to a new development in the Betta splendens tailforms - the Rosetail.


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## EvilVOG

Luimeril said:


> which leads me to believe that they have weaker immune systems..


Altho it's not necessarily what's happening in that case, any "interesting newer breed" is going to be more susceptible to disease and genetic issues resulting from the heavy inbreeding that resulted in that interesting new breed. While it may be the keeper at fault, the fish may have been extra sensitive as well.


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## 1fish2fish

It's fish like this that are the reason I'll never breed rose tails. Yes you may get a few pretty ones... but at what cost to the rest of the spawn??


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## Luimeril

oh, geeze... lookit that green's scales. D: 

that orange girl is so pretty, too. ;A; poor things...


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## BeautifulBetta

WHOA what the...?
Thats awful :S They look like a bad mosaic


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## Luimeril

that's why i mentioned the bad scales before. alot of RTs have scales like that. smudged, wonky, lines like in teh female...


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> It's fish like this that are the reason I'll never breed rose tails. Yes you may get a few pretty ones... but at what cost to the rest of the spawn??


That's from breeding RT fish with bad genetics. Not from breeding any RT fish. That breeder clearly bred an X factor fish. That fish does not prove that RT's create that defect. It only proves that, that specific breeder bred a fish with bad genetics.


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## Bettas Rule

Luimeril said:


> that's why i mentioned the bad scales before. alot of RTs have scales like that. smudged, wonky, lines like in teh female...


Yes unfortunately because people perpetuate the myth that all RT's have these defects people breed the defected one's thinking that the few good fish are worth the effort. If people knew not to breed those defected RT's and to only breed good RT's you wouldn't see fish like this. Education is the answer not perpetuating a myth.


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## 1fish2fish

You do get xfactor fish in non-xfactor RT. You can get xfactor fish from fish who only carry RT but do not exhibit any of the traits. What leads you to believe only breeding x-factor fish causes deformiy?

That seller also had up some normal looking RT who appeared to from the same spawn as the affected fish. Most ethical breeders cull the xfactors instead of promoting them for sale.


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> You do get xfactor fish in non-xfactor RT. You can get xfactor fish from fish who only carry RT but do not exhibit any of the traits. What leads you to believe only breeding x-factor fish causes deformiy?
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> That seller also had up some normal looking RT who appeared to from the same spawn as the affected fish. Most ethical breeders cull the xfactors instead of promoting them for sale.





> EXTREME ROSETAIL: This is actually a DEFORMITY, and shouldn't be bred! The extreme rosetail appears when breeders are trying too hard to increase ray branching and not paying enough attention to the strength of form. Extreme rosetails have varying degrees of expression, but one gets skilled at identifying them if enough of them are seen. For one thing, almost all Extreme Rosetails (also called "X-factor fish") are smaller than their siblings, and seem weaker. Most of them have excessive branching and bad scales (this can look like someone has "smudged" the scales) combined with small dorsals, pale coloration, and stunted ventral fins. They are ugly fish, and they pass their deformities on to future generations if you can keep them alive long enough to spawn. It is unfortunate that a lot of inexperienced breeders see these fish and think they would be good breeding prospects because they don't know any better, especially when they are very young and look like miniature HMs!. Extreme Rosetails should be avoided at all costs! They will weaken your line.


If normal RT's that do not have X factor fish in their line created deformities wouldn't it be mentioned in the article like it is here? The OP is clearly stating that breeding X factor fish is where the deformities come from, and therefore those fish should not be bred. Just because a RT looks normal doesn't mean it will breed normally. If it has X factor fish in it's line it will create more X factor fish, just like the OP said. If all RT's created X factor fish the OP wouldn't have wasted the time to describe the differences and educate people on how to breed RT's correctly. Not to mention the OP is much to experienced and intelligent to promote the breeding of fish that create deformities.


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## 1fish2fish

You needn't keep quoting the same article. Believe me, I've read it several times.

The article is saying don't breed X-factor fish. No where does it say that if you breed an RT you won't get x-factor fish.

I've read a lot of spawn logs over the years and x-factor fish will show up if there is any RT in the line, regardless of whether it was an extreme rosetail or not.


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> You needn't keep quoting the same article. Believe me, I've read it several times.
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> The article is saying don't breed X-factor fish. No where does it say that if you breed an RT you won't get x-factor fish.
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> I've read a lot of spawn logs over the years and x-factor fish will show up if there is any RT in the line, regardless of whether it was an extreme rosetail or not.


Spawn logs from people don't prove genetics. Unfortunately unless one can prove that their were no X factor fish bred in that line it doesn't mean anything. For all we know there could have been X factor fish in their line. 

IMHO The OP would not have cautioned against breeding X factor RT's if all RT's have that effect on the line. She would have just said don't breed RT's because they cause genetic deformities. I trust the OP over a bunch of spawn logs. No offense.


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## Luimeril

i've heard of breeders who REGRET introducing RTs into their line. RTs that showed no sign of x-factor at all. 
and, as much as i adore betty, i trust 1fish2fish, because i've known her for about a year or more, and have seen her breed many different bettas. 
i also trust what i see with my own two eyes. out of about 4 RTs on Aquabid, 3 of them have visible scale issues. that shows me that this x-factor is more of an issue than you think. x:

just my bit. i'm no breeder, and when i do, i'm staying away from HMs for a while(until i'm ready to start up my orange dal line, anyways).


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## 1fish2fish

Its like doubletails. You don't breed short bodied, curved spine DT because you will get a higher percentage of deformity. That does not mean breeding DT with no deformities will not show up with fry that are deformed.

Xfactor is linked to rosetail, you will have one with the other no matter how long you've bred it out, you'll still get it popping up from time to time.

Victoria stark is one breeder with one website, doesn't make her word gospel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bettas Rule

Well until I see someone with enough credibility to prove her wrong I will continue to believe her. Especially over some random aquabid fish and watching spawn logs. I choose to believe someone who has earned the credibility to speak, not someone who bred their fish and think they know better than a woman who has made a career out of it. That's just arrogance IMHO. Nothing that has been said is fact or even close to it, it's all hearsay. Information gathered with no source or background to prove your point. I don't care about who heard from someone else that RT's are bad. Until a legitimate breeder with YEARS and YEARS of experience and wins in the show, tells me that ALL RT's create deformities I will continue to believe Betty. Why? Because she could stand up as a expert in court if someone needed an expert on Betta's, could you? NO. Neither of you has that kind of experience. So excuse me for not taking your word over an expert's word. 

I say we shall have to agree to disagree on this topic because I won't debate anymore "he said she said" comments that are supposed to equate to fact. 

In a debate, to prove a person wrong one needs to use credible sources, expert opinions, and provide factual evidence. None of that has been presented in this thread.


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## 1fish2fish

Victoria Stark is someone who has done a lot of spawns and won some shows. She has complied a website with articles written by other people and some of her own findings in her fish room. Doesn't make her any more of an expert than any other breeder that's been in the game for a while. Last time I checked speaking on your experience with the fish you've bred doesn't make you a scientific expert.

But whatever, I'm not going to argue with you. You've obviously decided to believe this one breeder and her anecdotal experiences over all others and no amount of evidence unless presented by Dr. Gene Lucas himself is going to sway you.


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## kathstew

Can I ask what the difference is between Victorias breeding logs and other peoples? 1f2f isn't just looking at beginners spawn/breeding logs she's looking at many people's. Experienced breeders logs. 
Because honestly, that is where Victoria is getting her opinions, her breeding logs, her experience. 

No matter what, when you breed RT there is still the chance of getting x-factor RTs. I agree with 1f2f. 
You saying that because 1f2f doesn't want to make a living out of breeding fish, she doesn't know what she's talking about? I find that arrogant. Someone doesn't have to make a living off of something to be knowledgeable. 

As well, you are only providing one source yourself, over and over again. And you can't really use the source you're arguing over as the source to prove your point, that's stupid.


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> Victoria Stark is someone who has done a lot of spawns and won some shows. She has complied a website with articles written by other people and some of her own findings in her fish room. Doesn't make her any more of an expert than any other breeder that's been in the game for a while. Last time I checked speaking on your experience with the fish you've bred doesn't make you a scientific expert.


LOL I am not the one claiming I know more than a person who has made a career out of breeding betta's. I also have not used any of my own breeding's as an example. You are the only one who claims to be smarter and better informed than Victoria. Not me. Don't try to turn this back on me just because you got arrogant and put your foot in your mouth.


> But whatever, I'm not going to argue with you. You've obviously decided to believe this one breeder and her anecdotal experiences over all others and no amount of evidence unless presented by Dr. Gene Lucas himself is going to sway you.


Well for someone who is not going to argue with me you sure are still arguing....

Victoria's article is not based on anecdotal evidence. She is an expert at betta's and has made a career out of it! You honestly think looking at spawn logs on forums and browsing Aquabid makes you more informed and smarter than Victoria?? 

Your examples are definitely anecdotal ! Looking at spawn logs? Seriously?? That is supposed to trump an expert? All of your examples are Anecdotal and that's what I meant when I told you your points are hearsay! 
I have to say you are good at trying to flip an argument in your favor but it wont work with me. I took psychology in college and I know that trick already ;-) I already told you I would need a experienced, proven breeder that has credibility on par with Victoria to believe them over her. You are not that person, despite your lengthy experience on betta forums looking at spawn logs. 

In case you forgot the definition of anecdotal here it is to refresh your memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Anecdotal 
The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases. Also, anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate, sometimes based on anecdotes, second-hand accounts of events or hearsay.[1]

I know I am coming off harsh and I am not meaning too. I know you are well respected on this forum and you have been here for a long time and that's fine. I however do not know you well enough to trust your word over someone that I consider to be an expert. And to be honest I find it worrisome that you think you know more than her. I look for humbleness and honesty in people that I trust and I don't see that from you. Your posts seem arrogant and tainted with a "know it all" attitude. Not the kind of poster that I look to for accurate information.

How can you learn anything when you already know everything?


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## Bettas Rule

kathstew said:


> Can I ask what the difference is between Victorias breeding logs and other peoples? 1f2f isn't just looking at beginners spawn/breeding logs she's looking at many people's. Experienced breeders logs.
> Because honestly, that is where Victoria is getting her opinions, her breeding logs, her experience.
> 
> No matter what, when you breed RT there is still the chance of getting x-factor RTs. I agree with 1f2f.
> You saying that because 1f2f doesn't want to make a living out of breeding fish, she doesn't know what she's talking about? I find that arrogant. Someone doesn't have to make a living off of something to be knowledgeable.
> 
> As well, you are only providing one source yourself, over and over again. And you can't really use the source you're arguing over as the source to prove your point, that's stupid.


Here comes the Calvary to protect 1fish2fish.LOL!! It always makes me laugh when people blindly take others sides just because they are buddies. LOL


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## youlovegnats

O__O ..... 

This whole thread.... just exploded. 
Calvary? What calvary? That was just one person agreeing... o__O; 

Buuuuttt... I have to agree also with 1F2F. She knows her stuff, and it's like everything else in life. You can't rely on one source to provide you with info that is absolutely correct. You need multiple sources to even get the gist of most information. Everyone breeds bettas differently, so you'll have different results in their readings.


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## kathstew

Bettas Rule said:


> Here comes the Calvary to protect 1fish2fish.LOL!! It always makes me laugh when people blindly take others sides just because they are buddies. LOL


That has nothing to do with it. 

I was honestly asking legit questions, but since you didn't answer them I guess you can't. 
Whatever.


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## kathstew

youlovegnats said:


> O__O .....
> 
> This whole thread.... just exploded.
> Calvary? What calvary? That was just one person agreeing... o__O;
> 
> Buuuuttt... I have to agree also with 1F2F. She knows her stuff, and it's like everything else in life. You can't rely on one source to provide you with info that is absolutely correct. You need multiple sources to even get the gist of most information. Everyone breeds bettas differently, so you'll have different results in their readings.


+1


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## ShyDog

Just because she has a career in breeding does not make her an expert, does she have a masters in genetics? don't think so, she *as is * 1fish2fish relying on her breeding experience. 1fish2fish is also bringing in other people's experience to support her, where as *you are relying on one person for your whole argument.* Get off your soap box, and actually find more sources before you start discrediting other opinions which discredit your "source" and by source I mean Victoria's *opinion* which, regardless of experience is still just that. 

1fish is respected by *many* of us for her *experience* and if you looked at her posts, you would see are much more than just reading spawn logs as you have so put.

So far, you've just used one source to defend your opinion, lets see some variety : )




Bettas Rule said:


> LOL I am not the one claiming I know more than *a person who has made a career out of breeding betta's. *
> Your examples are definitely anecdotal ! Looking at spawn logs? Seriously?? *That is supposed to trump an expert? * All of your examples are Anecdotal and that's what I meant when I told you your points are hearsay!
> I have to say you are good at trying to flip an argument in your favor but it wont work with me. I took psychology in college and I know that trick already *;-) I already told you I would need a experienced, proven breeder that has credibility on par with Victoria to believe them over her*. You are not that person, despite your lengthy experience on betta forums looking at spawn logs.
> 
> In case you forgot the definition of anecdotal here it is to refresh your memory.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
> Anecdotal
> The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases. Also, anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate, sometimes based on anecdotes, second-hand accounts of events or hearsay.[1]
> 
> I know I am coming off harsh and I am not meaning too. I know you are well respected on this forum and you have been here for a long time and that's fine. I however do not know you well enough to *trust your word over someone that I consider to be an expert.* And to be honest I find it worrisome that you think you know more than her. I look for humbleness and honesty in people that I trust and I don't see that from you. Your posts seem arrogant and tainted with a "know it all" attitude. Not the kind of poster that I look to for accurate information.
> 
> How can you learn anything when you already know everything?


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## dramaqueen

I agree with Youlovegnats. You can't rely on just one source for info about stuff. You have to research and get info from different sources.


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## MrVampire181

Victoria is a good breeder....but I will never breed RT....there is X factor involved with the gene....also why would you breed a fish that doesn't even look that great according to show standards? To get more HM? Breed an OHM if you want a higher percentage of HM...even then no guarantees.


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## Oldfishlady

Here is some updated info that may or may not help us understand this a bit more

http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABRosetails.htm


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## Bettas Rule

Oldfishlady said:


> Here is some updated info that may or may not help us understand this a bit more
> 
> http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABRosetails.htm


This article is actually not new from what I have seen this is the same article that is posted over and over again. That makes me think it's just copy paste info for SEO purposes. Pieces of it are scattered across the web even on Victoria's site. I would believe that it is bad if I didn't see so many RT fish for sale on aquabid by top breeders. Most of the fish are not labeled as RT's but they are non the less. If these fish are so bad why do the top breeders use them and create them?


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## youlovegnats

Bettas Rule said:


> If these fish are so bad why do the top breeders use them and create them?


For the aesthetic appeal. It's with other types of animals than just bettas. 
Lot's of dogs are bred for just looks, when actually their immune systems are terrible and they have deformities all around.


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## 1fish2fish

For the record I'm not saying no one should breed rose tail. I just stated the reason's I prefer not to breed RT. There have been breeders trying to get nice rose tails without having x-factor come up but it is proving very difficult. It also seems to be very difficult to remove RT once it's been introduced to the line. If someone wants to breed RT I feel like they should know what can happen, especially those breeding extreme RT, even ones not showing x-factor.

Yes you can reduce the percentage of x-factor by breeding moderate RT fish... but isn't the point of breeding for RT is to get the actual rose effect? HM with more branching due to RT is still an HM. To get the extreme RT (with or without the x-factor) you have to select for that trait. So far it's been hard to get nice RT without also getting X-factor in the spawn.

The article by Joep is a good one as it lays out what you can expect if you choose to delve into the RT gene. Personally I don't need a fish with tons of branching, as long as he has enough spread to be a true HM I could care less if he has 5264 ray branches. TBH I don't like the look of OHM or Roses which is another reason I don't really care to breed them.


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## monroe0704

I like how the last bit in Oldfishlady's article says that each breeder must decide this for themselves. Like politics and religion, breeding bettas is an individual decision; and while some cases can be iffy, overall I don't like to infringe on anyone's right to do some informed dabbling


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## Bettas Rule

MrVampire181 said:


> Victoria is a good breeder....but I will never breed RT....there is X factor involved with the gene....also why would you breed a fish that doesn't even look that great according to show standards? To get more HM? Breed an OHM if you want a higher percentage of HM...even then no guarantees.


Not everyone breeds for show. I don't in fact I like the RT look more than a clean HM...But that's just me...

Found this on another site.....This is written by a respected breeder in Betta's . He states that he personally doesn't use the RT's only the siblings of RT's but regardless it's RT genetics. He goes on to say this.... I cant post a link but search the quote and you will find the post.



> For me rosetails are fishes which show exessive branching in their finnage. To my opinion there are many different degrees of rosetails from moderate to extreme (which are also called feather- or fantails).
> The extreme forms often have small dorsals and ventral finnage like stated above and often bad scales on the body.
> I think this is the form we betta breeders have to avoid by culling and heavy selecting.
> To my opinion we betta breeders have to be very carefull with the rosetail characteristic in order to keep breeding healthy, balanced fishes.



This is exactly what the other article said about it...They never said not to just to be cautious and avoid using extreme variations. It's really all the same as what Victoria said honestly....



> Should we use rosetails in our lines?
> 
> This is a question that each breeder should answer for himself. The opinion about this differs heavily among betta breeders. Some breeders refuse to use these fish and cull the extreme forms. They only use the normal or moderate sibblings. Others swear by using these fish in their lines and claim that the use of rosetails increases the percentage HM finnage in their lines.
> One thing is certain about this, when you use rosetails in your line you will increase the percentage rosetail in the next generation.
> 
> To my personal opinion we should be very cautious with this trait. When working with these types of fish you will have to select very strict and strongly in order to keep balanced fish. I personally would prefer to use the normal or moderate sibblings from the rosetail fish for a spawn. Thereby being very carefull in looking for a female with not to much branching in order to compensate the extensive branching.


So from what I read people do use RT's just not extreme forms, they use the moderate forms yet they are still RT's. Exactly as I posted in the OP.


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## nochoramet

Look, 1f2f AND Mr.Vamp are both very experienced breeders, who know their stuff. They also are very devoted to keeping the betta fish strong and healthy, and not breeding in deformities that will harm a fish.

You are quoting one or two articles like they are the only rules to go by, when in fact fish keeping is a very varied hobby. Different people have different findings, but I have to disagree with what you stated earlier about spawn logs not being scientific. A spawn log is cold, hard truth about genetics of a fish. If it's not true, xfactors wouldn't show up in non xfactor spawns. 

Rosetails are pretty, but as it was said before, you often end up culling enormous amounts of the spawn due to defects. I would pause for a second and take YOUR foot out of your mouth and realize there are different ways to look at things before being short and accusing people of being arrogant just because they have a different opinion.

Just think about it.


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## xswornxoffxjello

Bettas Rule, I am not a breeder or even extremely knowledgeable when it comes to keeping fish. I do not claim to be an expert, but I do have a working knowledge of bettas that has grown over the past few years and I can't help but feel that you are being rather hypocritical. You state the variances in information as reason to be confused about rosetails, while instead you only give one set of facts. You state that spawn logs do not prove genetics, while in fact you are basing your entire line of argument upon the one argument and one spawn log of one breeder.

From what I've read X-factor fish are a genetic weakness prone to, but not limited to, the rosetail line. Much like doubletails having a risk of spinal deformities, there will always be the genetic propensity for X-factor fish in the line. This can be minimized by only breeding fish showing no or little X-factor, though not guaranteed. 

1fish2fish is an experienced breeder. She has accomplished many successful spawns and has built herself a reputation as a knowledgeable and experienced person. MrVampire181 is also a very experienced and knowlegeable breeder and I would trust his judgement in these matters. I am not coming to "defend" them as you claim, but rather giving my two cents on a matter that I feel you have acted very unfairly with. You claim that Oldfishlady's article is not new, but has been posted "over and over again" rather strange as you use only one article to defend your position. It is also interesting to me how defensive you became as soon as your position was threatened. It was my opinion that this forum was intended to discuss matters rationally, but hey, maybe I'm mistaken. After all, I *am* an ignorant teenager. ;>

Cheers!


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## 1fish2fish

While I'm humbled by the vote of confidence I *don't* really consider myself an experienced breeder.. not by a long shot. I just try to read as much as I can from a variety of sources from posts on forums, to the IBC articles, to books, and long time breeders themselves. I form my opinions based on my personal ethics and how I interpret what I'm reading. I try to share what I've learned in the hopes it might help someone or at least urge them to seek out the information themselves.


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## dramaqueen

Maybe this is a dumb question but what exactly is x factor?


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## Bettas Rule

dramaqueen said:


> Maybe this is a dumb question but what exactly is x factor?


X factor fish are RT's with deformities. From my understanding...


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## TheCrysCat

I agree with swornxoffxjello; it's pretty hypocritical to say that 1fish2fish is arrogant when a few posts above you went after kathstew for being "1fish2fish's brigade." 

Spawn logs, whether from a newbie or an expert, record the fish produced and *will* reveal any deformities in the fry. 

Furthermore, how many fish have you bred? Any rosetails? 1fish has been reading up AND had firsthand experience breeding. Your breeder who wrote the article you keep quoting is a respected member of the breeding community, but she is a single person against many other experts. 

Point is, breeding RT's isn't bad in and of itself, but there's no "perfect strain" of it that is going to result in absolutely no x-factor/deformed fish. If regular spawns with established tail types will have a few deformities, a new strain definitely will.


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## ChelseaK

I've found this thread to be both entertaining and extremely informative! 
Who needs tv?


----------



## 1fish2fish

TheCrysCat said:


> Point is, breeding RT's isn't bad in and of itself, but there's no "perfect strain" of it that is going to result in absolutely no x-factor/deformed fish. If regular spawns with established tail types will have a few deformities, a new strain definitely will.


Which was my whole point LOL

To answer your question DQ x-factor is a series of deformities, it can be mild to severe but among most breeders, especially in the IBC any sign of x-factor should be a cull. Signs of xfactor include pale coloring (also called "blonde" in Joeps article), misaligned scales (which can be moderate to severe), small pectorals, and rose tail. Its said that these fish are generally not very healthy but I actually haven't found many accounts from people who have raised them.

Still working through the TA library though so maybe I'll find more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## indjo

Many breeders produce extreme RT in an attempt to create "better" looking fins with more ray branching/wider spread. To fix the RT trait they would inbreed them, often too much. Yes they often come up with gorgeous balances in all fins but don't forget that these people would cull 100% if they need to. Their only goal is to boost their market. To my experience these gorgeous specimens can't be spawned without producing deformities.... no matter how you try to "balance" ray branching by pairing them with fewer branching/smaller spread.

IME, deformed possibilities are:
- odd scales/body form in general
- Very short/crooked/folded uneven/unbalanced fins
- low immune system
- fin curl that often show at a later age (can't or very difficult to
breed out)

IMO if you want to work with RT, create your own by breeding pairs of excessive ray branching. That way you can avoid the x factor by breeding out once you get a RT. Like the DT, inbreeding RT too often will fix the x factor into the line. Severe x factors may (I heard) produce 90% deformed batches..... I've never heard of 100%.

OR if you know the breeder and how he/she works, their principles in line production, etc. you can use their specimens BUT DO NOT inbreed even with a non looking RT. Always breed out in your first generation, preferably with lower ray branching. Then you can selectively pair your fry for inbreeding. .... just my opinion.

I'm not an expert breeder. But I have had first hand bad experience with RT (plus seen other peoples results). I would carefully and selectively breed any deformity. BUT I will NEVER breed RT deformity or healthy RT with unknown background. Once their x factor gets into your line.... it's hard to clean out. It's not a chance I would now deliberately take.


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## 1fish2fish

That's what I've heard from others as well Indjo. Good to hear your experiences match what I've read from other breeders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bettas Rule

TheCrysCat said:


> I agree with swornxoffxjello; it's pretty hypocritical to say that 1fish2fish is arrogant when a few posts above you went after kathstew for being "1fish2fish's brigade."
> 
> Spawn logs, whether from a newbie or an expert, record the fish produced and *will* reveal any deformities in the fry.
> 
> Furthermore, how many fish have you bred? Any rosetails? 1fish has been reading up AND had firsthand experience breeding. Your breeder who wrote the article you keep quoting is a respected member of the breeding community, but she is a single person against many other experts.
> 
> Point is, breeding RT's isn't bad in and of itself, but there's no "perfect strain" of it that is going to result in absolutely no x-factor/deformed fish. If regular spawns with established tail types will have a few deformities, a new strain definitely will.


If you had read ALL of the articles they all agree with each other. So in all actuality I have MANY sources to site what I quoted. So no it was not arrogant of me to put my trust in an expert and not a person with hearsay experience. Besides EVERYONE is now agreeing with me!! Now going back and saying breeding RT's is ok. That's what I said!!!! I said the same thing ALL of these articles say, don't breed the EXTREME versions! And I am arrogant? Excuse me? Watching spawn logs says NOTHING! It says nothing of the genetics if the fish! Unless you know and can VERIFY the complete genealogy if the fish to GUARANTEE that there have been no X factor fish, watching the spawn log is useless to determine the genetic results! Watching a spawn log is NOT scientific and is not a good study example! How can you think it is? Sure you may get some basics about fry care but not genetics! This seriously blows my mind that people think you can count on the results of someone's spawn log as scientific proof of genetics. 


This is what 1fish2fish said about the article I posted..

She posted 2 pictures of EXTREME RT's with genetic deformiteis and them said CLEARLY that she will never breed RT's because they ALL create deformities. How do I know she implied ALL of them? Because she would have stated like ALL of the other articles that breeding the EXTREME versions of RT's create the deformities. 



> It's fish like this that are the reason I'll never breed rose tails. Yes you may get a few pretty ones... but at what cost to the rest of the spawn??


Then I told her exactly what the all the articles say! That breeding the X factor aka extreme RT's is where these examples come from.



> That's from breeding RT fish with bad genetics. Not from breeding any RT fish. That breeder clearly bred an X factor fish. That fish does not prove that RT's create that defect. It only proves that, that specific breeder bred a fish with bad genetics.


Then she went on to tell me, and all of the people who wrote those articles that we are wrong and that ALL RT's and fish with RT's genetics will cause deformities. Even though ALL the breeders in the articles admit to using siblings to RT's and even moderate RT's in their lines. 



> You do get xfactor fish in non-xfactor RT. You can get xfactor fish from fish who only carry RT but do not exhibit any of the traits. What leads you to believe only breeding x-factor fish causes deformity?
> 
> That seller also had up some normal looking RT who appeared to from the same spawn as the affected fish. Most ethical breeders cull the xfactors instead of promoting them for sale.


Then she backtracks !! And says this!


> For the record I'm not saying no one should breed rose tail. I just stated the reason's I prefer not to breed RT. There have been breeders trying to get nice rose tails without having x-factor come up but it is proving very difficult. It also seems to be very difficult to remove RT once it's been introduced to the line. If someone wants to breed RT I feel like they should know what can happen, especially those breeding extreme RT, even ones not showing x-factor.
> 
> Yes you can reduce the percentage of x-factor by breeding moderate RT fish... but isn't the point of breeding for RT is to get the actual rose effect? HM with more branching due to RT is still an HM. To get the extreme RT (with or without the x-factor) you have to select for that trait. So far it's been hard to get nice RT without also getting X-factor in the spawn.]


So I am arrogant for what again? For being right? For doing my research? All I did was try to educate people on the truth about RT's and ALL of the articles agree with me and what I originally said. I was not arrogant, 1fish2fish is the one who argued a point that was wrong with spawn logs as "proof". Now she back tracks and people cant see that? This is what I meant by the calvary, all forums have a sense of loyalty to known members and so that's why everyone came to her defense not commenting about the topic, no just to tell me that I am actually the arrogant one. LOL Seriously?? :lol:

I will always be in awe of the human ability to jump into drama without looking at the situation clearly.


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## Oldfishlady

A civil debate based on a persons opinion from the information they read-be it scientific, true, myth, other persons experience and/or opinion....etc.....is a great learning tool to help us understand some issue........

Diversity of members with varied knowledge base, understanding of what they read, heard, understand, personal opinion and experience as well as personal experiments that we share with each other.....

Arguments, name calling, pointing fingers, attempts to 1up each other-is counter productive......

State your case with the facts and let the other members draw their own conclusion...

Agree to disagree.......but lets stop the name calling and finger pointing.......


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> Which was my whole point LOL
> 
> To answer your question DQ x-factor is a series of deformities, it can be mild to severe but among most breeders, especially in the IBC any sign of x-factor should be a cull. Signs of xfactor include pale coloring (also called "blonde" in Joeps article), misaligned scales (which can be moderate to severe), small pectorals, and rose tail. Its said that these fish are generally not very healthy but I actually haven't found many accounts from people who have raised them.
> 
> Still working through the TA library though so maybe I'll find more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here is an article also verifying what I said where the breeder clearly states it's extreme versions of RT's to avoid.


So to clear, everything I said from the very beginning has been correct. I am not arrogant I am informed and educated on the subject and was willing to prove it regardless of 1fish2fish's reputation. 

If everyone else jumps off the bridge. I DON'T JUMP. I stand by my beliefs and my hard work of doing research and reading studies and watching TOP breeders STOCK SHOPS not spawn logs.

http://www.cbsbettas.org/newsletters/PDF_Newsletter_Mar_Apr_08.pdf


> Perhaps the most disconcerting surprise for the new betta breeder is the
> appearance of a deformed fish. Unfortunately, this is not as rare as we
> would hope. Some fish have crooked spines. Others have strangely
> shaped dorsal fins. A doubletail cross, especially, can be riddled with
> deformities, and the “extreme rosetail” trait is linked to uneven scales,
> small bodies, and excessively curved fins. But there is one deformity that
> can attack an entire spawn, leaving hundreds of fry unshowable and
> unsellable. And surprisingly enough, it may not be caused by factors
> beyond our control


http://www.quakerbettas.com/images/Fish%20jpg/Flare%2039-5%20Total.pdf
That article by Joep is included in the IBC journal and in it he admits to using RT's and that most breeders use moderate RT's or RT siblings. Not to mention they used a RT as the opening picture or the entire journal! LOL Seems like the IBC likes RT's... So if joep and all the articles are correct you should be able to find LOTS of breeders that use RT's. Many people sell RT's they just don't label them as RT's, most likely because of people who spread rumors about RT's. Kinda like the pit bull phenomena to be honest. lol


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## 1fish2fish

OMG really? This is getting stupid. All I was trying to say with my original post is that if your dealing with the RT gene you WILL get x-factor. Doesn't matter how moderate or severe the RT you breed is, your still going to get x-factor. HOWEVER you MAY be able to REDUCE the likelihood of having a LARGE NUMBER of the spawn having x-factor by breeding moderate forms... But you will STILL have some. Its exactly what indjo posted.

You can't have RT without a chance of having x-factor... Just not going to happen. Doesn't matter how moderate your fish is it is still possible to get the deformity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## youlovegnats

O___O; Oh my god, woman, calm down. Seriously. 

1F2F Isn't poking at you, nor is anyone else looking for an argument. Find your data, state it, and be on your way. There's no reason to fight over something as retarded as this. Nor is it appropriate to be name-calling, by anyone. -___- 
If you agree or disagree, whatever, that's up to you. I'm unsubbing from this ridiculousness of a thread.


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## Bettas Rule

indjo said:


> Many breeders produce extreme RT in an attempt to create "better" looking fins with more ray branching/wider spread. To fix the RT trait they would inbreed them, often too much. Yes they often come up with gorgeous balances in all fins but don't forget that these people would cull 100% if they need to. Their only goal is to boost their market. To my experience these gorgeous specimens can't be spawned without producing deformities.... no matter how you try to "balance" ray branching by pairing them with fewer branching/smaller spread.
> 
> IME, deformed possibilities are:
> - odd scales/body form in general
> - Very short/crooked/folded uneven/unbalanced fins
> - low immune system
> - fin curl that often show at a later age (can't or very difficult to
> breed out)
> 
> IMO if you want to work with RT, create your own by breeding pairs of excessive ray branching. That way you can avoid the x factor by breeding out once you get a RT. Like the DT, inbreeding RT too often will fix the x factor into the line. Severe x factors may (I heard) produce 90% deformed batches..... I've never heard of 100%.
> 
> OR if you know the breeder and how he/she works, their principles in line production, etc. you can use their specimens BUT DO NOT inbreed even with a non looking RT. Always breed out in your first generation, preferably with lower ray branching. Then you can selectively pair your fry for inbreeding. .... just my opinion.
> 
> I'm not an expert breeder. But I have had first hand bad experience with RT (plus seen other peoples results). I would carefully and selectively breed any deformity. BUT I will NEVER breed RT deformity or healthy RT with unknown background. Once their x factor gets into your line.... it's hard to clean out. It's not a chance I would now deliberately take.


I agree with you and that's what I was saying as well as all of the articles. Staying away from X factor fish is crucial and knowing the background of the lines is crucial.


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## Bettas Rule

youlovegnats said:


> O___O; Oh my god, woman, calm down. Seriously.
> 
> 1F2F Isn't poking at you, nor is anyone else looking for an argument. Find your data, state it, and be on your way. There's no reason to fight over something as retarded as this. Nor is it appropriate to be name-calling, by anyone. -___-
> If you agree or disagree, whatever, that's up to you. I'm unsubbing from this ridiculousness of a thread.


When did anyone name call?


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> OMG really? This is getting stupid. All I was trying to say with my original post is that if your dealing with the RT gene you WILL get x-factor. Doesn't matter how moderate or severe the RT you breed is, your still going to get x-factor. HOWEVER you MAY be able to REDUCE the likelihood of having a LARGE NUMBER of the spawn having x-factor by breeding moderate forms... But you will STILL have some. Its exactly what indjo posted.
> 
> You can't have RT without a chance of having x-factor... Just not going to happen. Doesn't matter how moderate your fish is it is still possible to get the deformity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG yes !;-)
Not it's not getting stupid it's finally right. You argued blindly and are now getting upset because you were proven wrong. Something you seem to be uncomfortable with.


Breeding ANY betta can produce X factor fish. It's a possibility anytime you reproduce any animal. However it's not PROVEN that the RT gene creates X factor fish ONLY that EXTREME versions create X factor fish and should be avoided. Argue with the experts all you want but they all say the same thing. Don't use the extreme versions.
Why? Because they create deformities.


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## Bettas Rule

Dr.Lucas is the one who created the RT line and this is what he is quoted saying.... He said it COULD be a RT thing but it could also NOT be just RT thing. no one knows yet and their needs to be more research done before people go around spreading rumors that they know for certain that it's just a RT trait. We will NEVER know the truth if no one ever uses RT's either. 

I plan to breed my RT to VT to see if I produce any X factor fish. Then I will know if non X factor RT still produce X factor fish.....




> Dr. Gene Lucas said on a Bettysplendens.com podcast that the longfin type is due to a trait which makes betta fins grow past the point of being plakat. He said that the HM type is just a variant of the same longfin 'gene' (if it's just one gene). The long fin trait is, according to Dr. Lucas, a flexible, variable one that responds to selection. Through selective breeding, the long fin (veil)tail can be moulded into roundtail, or delta, HM etc. This means that HM may simply be a variation of the long fin trait (not a mutation). Like marbles: through selective breeding, the marble pattern can be stabilized. So rosetail is probably just an "extension of a variation that already was there," caused by selective breeding of HM to get bigger fins and more branching. Dr. Lucas also said that EXTREME rosetails might be the result of a different gene altogether; i.e, a gene causing runts. If you wanted to find out if it was a new mutation you could cross one to a completely different line, say to a VT. Then if you got extreme RST in consequent generations, it could be the result of a separate trait. But he still thinks it is possible that it could be part of the RST complex. Dr. Lucas also thinks RST would make a very nice type, distinct from HMs.


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## 1fish2fish

I still have no clue what your talking about because we are talking about the exact same thing. I haven't changed what I'm talking about and my opinion hasn't changed. I do tend to talk circles around myself which is probably where the miscommunication happened. Working with RT is going to open you up to the possibility of getting x-factor.. Whether you use moderate or severe. I've seen xfactor in a spawn where I had the backgrounds of both parents for 4 generations and none were extreme.


You can get throwbacks. That is ALL I was EVER trying to say. I wasn't trying to say that you will get all x-factor... Dunno where you picked that up. You can twist my words all around you want but its not going to change what the intent of my original post was.. And that was to say that I do not like RT and will try to stay as far away from it as possible because you can have x-factor pop up at anytime.


The whole thing is hypocritical anyways. For me to say I won't breed RT that is. I'd breed a nice DT in a heartbeat even though there will be deformitites in the spawn. I've probably spawned several fish with RT genes because they're what I wanted for my spawn. I'll still be selecting for less branching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1fish2fish

Let me ask you this because I think this is where we are not understanding each other.. What do you consider an "extreme" rosetail? Moderate? Post a picture please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> Let me ask you this because I think this is where we are not understanding each other.. What do you consider an "extreme" rosetail? Moderate? Post a picture please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I already did......Look at the OP


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## 1fish2fish

The first fish posted is a bad picture but I'd consider him a rose tail and wouldn't breed him. The second one I'd breed with a moderate female however I don't consider that to be a true RT, he might have RT in his background. Yes, that is the type that should be bred if your going to breed. But I don't think you'll get rose tail from him, just nice HM.

The rose tail look however, with the rufffled, folded over edges, I don't think should be bred. That is what I consider a rose tail so when you speak about not breeding extreme versions.. To me any with the rose tail look is extreme and shouldn't be bred. 

We were never actually disagreeing. You and I just apply the term rose tail to two different kinds of fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bettas Rule

1fish2fish said:


> The first fish posted is a bad picture but I'd consider him a rose tail and wouldn't breed him. The second one I'd breed with a moderate female however I don't consider that to be a true RT, he might have RT in his background. Yes, that is the type that should be bred if your going to breed. But I don't think you'll get rose tail from him, just nice HM.
> 
> The rose tail look however, with the rufffled, folded over edges, I don't think should be bred. That is what I consider a rose tail so when you speak about not breeding extreme versions.. To me any with the rose tail look is extreme and shouldn't be bred.
> 
> We were never actually disagreeing. You and I just apply the term rose tail to two different kinds of fish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand that and I agree.
The pictures I found were found using google images with Rosetail betta as the search. I also made sure each photo was labeled as rosetail and spoke about in the article. 

Why don't you consider the second one a RT? By definition he is a RT by his branching and the overlapping of the rays. I would call him a moderate RT though. I don't consider my RT to be extreme and he has rose like fins. He is not light bodied and has no bad scales and he also is very healthy and is the largest betta have barring my two giants. His father was a RT like him too.


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## 1fish2fish

I need to look at the blue fish again. I saw ray branching but no over lap. Its hard to see detail on a 2 in screen. The light body, etc is what I consdier an x-factor fish. A rose tail is like the one you posted above. To me they're sort of separate.. You can find extreme RT without signs of that fish being deformed.

On a scale of 1 to 10.. 1 being little to no RT influence and 10 being Xfactor fish I'd put your guy at a 5. Personally I wouldn't breed him as I think you do have the potential to see x-factor.. But its not my fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dramaqueen

Aren't there going to be SOME deformities is just about every spawn, whether by an experienced breeder or a novice? How many people get 199% perfect spawns? I'm talking about any betta, not just rosetail. Forgive me if my questions are dumb. lol


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## Bettas Rule

dramaqueen said:


> Aren't there going to be SOME deformities is just about every spawn, whether by an experienced breeder or a novice? How many people get 199% perfect spawns? I'm talking about any betta, not just rosetail. Forgive me if my questions are dumb. lol


Yes it's possible, especially in fish because of the large number of fry. There are also known environmental factors that can cause deformities. :-(


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## trilobite

RTs are shifty things. They are often used as shortcuts to get more ray branching and achieve HM quickly. 
If these are introduced into a line, the chances of RT reapearing in the next gen is significantly increased. As a result you also run the risk of extreme RTs with all their misfortunes. 
They were developed while creating HM but were not continued since they appered weaker. 

Personally I like the look of a clean edged HM tail.


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## indjo

Sorry for the late post, comp problems........



Bettas Rule said:


> Breeding ANY betta can produce X factor fish. It's a possibility anytime you reproduce any animal. *However it's not PROVEN that the RT gene creates X factor fish ONLY that EXTREME versions create X factor fish and should be avoided.* Argue with the experts all you want but they all say the same thing. Don't use the extreme versions.
> Why? Because they create deformities.


For some reason I don't agree with this. Many years ago I didn't know of RT deformities and collected them. I tried to spawn them on many occasions but mostly failed. But I did get one into my line - IMO a 6-7 in 1f2f's RT scale.

These were from my original line. 








Then I introduced this rose into the line and produced some like #2. After some generations with new males (bought) I produced #3 and 4.








These were the typical females I used. None had 8 end rays. They were all 4 rays








Here's a more recent male introduced into my line.








These were some of the results (3 months old)








This is male #1 around 8 months old.








What I'm trying to show is RT effects will be carried on for many generations even though many new non RT were introduced into the line - even though less branching females were used. Between the day I used RT until the last picture was about 2 years apart; usually (not always) monthly breeding. .... So how many generations was that?

The above pictures are only a few of the real horror I had to face by using RT ONCE. So .... I don't mean to be rude...... but no matter what people say, I WILL NOT BREED bought RT and will never advise it. 

After generations of out breeding, I still get RT effect - some since a young age while others show at a later age. Oh, if you're thinking the last picture's form is due to old age...... the first copper (top left) was taken when he was about a year old. 

Yes, not 100% will have RT x-factor but IMO will be carriers and will pass it on to the next generation. So the real question is ..... about your willingness to cull. Personally, I don't want x-factor of any kind in my line .... mainly because I'd prefer to avoid culling.


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## dramaqueen

+1.


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## LittleBettas

I have never breed an animal, though I am interested in breeding bettas in the near future

I am an active animal rescuer and volunteer, I spend hours everyday setting up fosters, transportation, funds, and adopters for animals on kill lists, I spend a lot of time crying over the animas I was not able to get out in time, but I do not blame the shelter staff or myself... I blame the people who are truly responsible,the breeders

Now, my actualy point

While I do not have experiance with breeding
I do know that when youbegi breeding for a certain trait, when you breed period, you will have to face obsticals, many of them due to genetics

Such as:
(excuse the fact that Im using dogs as a relation)

Pitbulls (APBT, Staffies, what ever is included)
Due to the popularity as fighting dogs in the past, many have DA (dog aggression) which is a breed defect, breeders are breeding aways from this, but it DOES pop back in everynow and then

Chows and Sharpeis
Both have been seriosly inbred (due to small genetic pool)
Has cause SERIOUS temermental issue (DA and HA)
Health issues (both have allergies and both breeds suffer from Demodex <--- form of mange that can be passed on)

Pomeranian, Chihuahuas (most small dogs)
Trying to breed them smaller
Has caused HA
Heath problems (weak bones and eyes will pop out)

Huskies, Border Collies, GSDs (most working dogs)
-lots of "line-breeding"- going on, mainly by BYBs
Tempermental issues (HA and DA)
Health problems (hip dysplasia, hair loss (unknown causes, GSDs), seziures (Border Collies especially)


I can go on

Its just a fact, when you begin breeding, you will face problems, as a breeder, you are striving to FIX those problems, yes, there are cases where a line is best abandoned because it has TO many problems (like white Dobermans, the line has cancer, sensetivity to light, blindness and deafness along with HA and DA)
Its up to a breeder whether or not to breed a certain line, they have to be held accountable for the outcomes

and the only way to improve something is to work on it


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## Sena Hansler

Here is a question... Like any new tail type, there will be problems.. what if you did get an "extreme" RT, who was at least healthier than the rest, bred them to either a moderate RT, or unrelated HM, then bred back to RT... mainly, to aim for healthy RT that could have the longer rays? 

So, for instance like colors... some people want a color so they breed siblings, then breed back to the father/mother with one of the fry. Of course this causes deformities, but then if you introduce an unrelated betta into the line, you can help the genetics...

Just a curious question  Probably possible - but it would be pretty hard to try and get a good batch, that you could breed into F2, and F3 and so on.


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## 1fish2fish

Genetics don't work as cleanly as that Sena. That is the whole problem is it is proving to be very hard to clean the deformities out of the RT.


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## Sena Hansler

Well I never said it worked cleanly. I am just saying, in the future it is possible to get the "extreme" rosetail to be more healthy, while keeping it's interesting tail. Of course I'm don't know anything, but from what I've seen on here, especially about ones like CT and how hard it is to breed to get a good tail unless breeding to another CT... and then seeing how people add in unrelated bettas to a gene pool to avoid huge deformities down the line...

Just saying. it could be possible. Not right now, obviously, but it could be... Someone'll figure out how to make it work. We came up with getting colors in these fish, to getting different tails lol I'm sure someone'll find a way.


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## trilobite

indjo +100 :notworthy:

"what if you did get an "extreme" RT, who was at least healthier than the rest" 
This can't happen, x factors are associated with bad health otherwise it wouldnt be an extreme


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## Sena Hansler

I'm saying.... in the future it COULD be fixed. But okay, it won't happen...

So why are people bothering breeding these bad genetic fish? And I've seen some asking 30 dollars for them... I wouldn't pay that for a sickly fish...
If breeding those extreme RT is mainly for the tail then they shouldn't be bred... it's not helping the genetics of bettas at all, and just causes more and more deformities...

Although I will admit I saw a RT like the extremes crossed with an HM... very pretty, but... still.


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## trilobite

If you managed to find a healthy x factor the majority, if not all of the fry would be unhealthy, copious culling would be needed, you can't give them away for fear people might breed them plus they are unhealthy. 
You'd have to find the "healthiest" offspring and bered to the healthy parent and so on and so forth. 
Basically, the amount of inbreeding required inorder to get a line of healthy fish could potentially create new problems, introducing new blood might get you back to unhealthy RT and you'd still need to inbreed to get the line stable again. 

If theres a way to seperate the poor health from x factors then maybe.. but the breeders who actually have time, money, experience and space to create a whole new line of betta generally would spend their resources upon creating fish that are closest to the standard instead of a fish that is undesirable to the show standards. 
I don't think the show standards will change to accept x factors since they have such small caudals, bad scales and poor overall apperance. 

kind of like breeding 'doodles' and 'poos' and trying to gain respect in the dog showing world.


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## Sena Hansler

ok.


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## LittleBettas

I wouldn really say its like breeding doodles, RT is more like the white dobermans, gorgeous animals that are hoplessly flawed
As a breed standard dobermans are now tested or the "white factor" if they have it they are spayed/neutered
SOME people stll have hope that the flaws can be bred out

Maybe RTs are hopelessy flawed like the white doberman is, but they are gorgeous, and it would be an AMAZING insight into genetics if the flaws cold be bred out


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## indjo

Sena Hansler said:


> Here is a question... Like any new tail type, there will be problems.. *what if you did get an "extreme" RT, who was at least healthier than the rest, bred them to either a moderate RT, or unrelated HM, then bred back to RT.*.. mainly, to aim for healthy RT that could have the longer rays?


Look at the RT I bred, IMO he isn't that much of a RT (I have had more "rosing") - All of which were healthy and didn't show any signs of x-factors, deformities, or what ever.

We don't know how many generations a certain breeder has produced RT, inbreed or not. We don't know whether his batches has deformities or not and to what percentage. So IMO it's better safe than sorry and not breed RT we buy from others.

If you want to work with RT, produce your own and see if you can keep the x-factor out.... But never breed a RT to another RT regardless of quality because that will definitely create the x-factor.


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## Bettas Rule

I cant respond because I have a new job that is taking up all my time right now. All I can say is to each their own. Many people will continue to breed RT's regardless what anyone on this forum thinks. They are not in short supply regardless of the idea that they are all sickly. If you want to question the popularity of them go look on each of your favorite breeders feedback comments and look through every fish they sold. I have! I have not found one breeder that doesn't have at least moderate RT's for sale. And yes they still count.


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## dramaqueen

I would like to hear Martinsmommy's opinion on this subject. She is a very well-known and highly respected IBC and show winning breeder.


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## Bettas Rule

dramaqueen said:


> I would like to hear Martinsmommy's opinion on this subject. She is a very well-known and highly respected IBC and show winning breeder.


THANK YOU!! I have been waiting to bring this up........

This is a quote of Karens from another website


> I think rosetails are gorgeous..I would NEVER breed to one though for the reasons Red mentioned..I've had a couple but they were just my beloved pets..


I read that when I was doing my research on RT's. All I can say is that I looked up her fish for sale and saw these...She may not breed to RT's but she produces RT's. After seeing these fish I have to wonder if that's true or not....The post was a over a year old though so maybe she changed her mind?

With all the hype over RT's it wouldn't surprise me if breeders avoided telling people they used/produced RT's. And to be honest I wouldn't blame any one for lying about using them. To many opinions and not enough facts. 
Either way here is a perfect example of a RESPONSIBLE EXCELLENT breeder who has RT's in their line..

This is a full RT not even a moderate variety of RT. This fish is SHOW quality and has placed at shows. 









This fish by definition is a RT. The rays overlap and do create a rose like appearance. It's most clear on the bottom left picture. The fish is fully flarred and still has this effect. 









This fish is also a RT it's harder to tell because of the age of the fish but even with the young age the RT is clear and you can even see something up with the scales at the top of the head area.










This is another RT with bad scales, IMO if you look at the tails of both the fish with the bad scales, they are smaller and indicate EXTREME RT hence the bad scales. I am not sure why she would have been able to show him with bad scales like that but I have never shown a fish so I wouldn't know.










Another RT from her feedback area....










Another moderate RT as seen by the overlapping of the rays in full spread This fish was labled as a proven breeder so if I am assuming she bred this fish. If she did than Karen breeds RT's ;-)


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## cajunamy

Wow - the rudeness in this thread is just staggering. You can make your point without calling someone arrogant - that was just uncalled for. You will have your opinions, and other people, whether more experienced than you or not, will have their own. 

Karen's fins are frilly, she has heavy branching, but they are not Rosetails. I have owned many of her fish. They are by far the healthiest I have owned besides my own bred fish (bred in my water, therefore survive and thrive better in my own water)

You talk of hearsay - but you are doing it as well. Victoria Stark's opinions are just that - her opinions. So are anyone else's that post any article pro-rosetail or not. She is a highly respected breeder, although I would not put the term 'expert' on her. I highly respect other breeders, that know much more than the average breeder, but I also would not call them expert. I think about the only one I would dare to call expert (that I am aware of) is Dr Gene Lucas.

Rosetail is a deformity - plain and simple. I personally love their fins. But I have owned several and it is ridiculous how fragile they are. Bad scales or not. There is a difference between heavily branched HMs (such as Karen's) and Rosetails.

Breed them if you want - no one can stop you there, that I think we can all agree on. Maybe you will eventually create a line that will produce healthy Rosetails. But I think it would take several lifetimes.


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## Gloria

IMHO, I know this is a big topic, bt I think someone needs to close this thread. It is almost sickening to read. sorry


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## dramaqueen

Wouldn't it be possible for rosetails to pop up in a spawn every now and then, whether you're breeding for them or not?


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## Bettas Rule

cajunamy said:


> Wow - the rudeness in this thread is just staggering. You can make your point without calling someone arrogant - that was just uncalled for. You will have your opinions, and other people, whether more experienced than you or not, will have their own.
> 
> Karen's fins are frilly, she has heavy branching, but they are not Rosetails. I have owned many of her fish. They are by far the healthiest I have owned besides my own bred fish (bred in my water, therefore survive and thrive better in my own water)
> 
> You talk of hearsay - but you are doing it as well. Victoria Stark's opinions are just that - her opinions. So are anyone else's that post any article pro-rosetail or not. She is a highly respected breeder, although I would not put the term 'expert' on her. I highly respect other breeders, that know much more than the average breeder, but I also would not call them expert. I think about the only one I would dare to call expert (that I am aware of) is Dr Gene Lucas.
> 
> Rosetail is a deformity - plain and simple. I personally love their fins. But I have owned several and it is ridiculous how fragile they are. Bad scales or not. There is a difference between heavily branched HMs (such as Karen's) and Rosetails.
> 
> Breed them if you want - no one can stop you there, that I think we can all agree on. Maybe you will eventually create a line that will produce healthy Rosetails. But I think it would take several lifetimes.


This thread has been going fine without any fighting for days. Why do you have to bring up more drama? 1fish2fish and I have already said our piece and have moved on why can't you let sleeping dogs lie?

Oh and "frilly" is not a tail definition. They are Rosetails whether you can admit it or not. The definition is very clear and not open to interpretation by you or anyone else. 



> The ROSETAIL BETTA is an extreme version of the popular Halfmoon Betta. Rosetail describes a type of tailform. Like the halfmoon, the Rosetail has been bread to have a wide 180° spread of the caudal fin. What sets it apart is the increase in the number of branches in the dorsal, caudal and anal fins giving them a ruffled or feathery appearance. When the fins are spread open the dorsal and caudal fins overlap resembling the petals of a rose.


I don't make the rules! Those fish are RT's no matter what you say or how offended you get about the OBVIOUS truth!!


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## Bettas Rule

dramaqueen said:


> Wouldn't it be possible for rosetails to pop up in a spawn every now and then, whether you're breeding for them or not?


Yes they can, Rosetails were originally bred from Halfmoon spawns where breeders were looking for more and more branching.


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## Bettas Rule

THIS is a Halfmoon tail. Straight with no overlapping rays.


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## Bettas Rule

Another example of a Halfmoon betta...Notice how there is no overlapping of the rays or extensive branching...


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## indjo

IMO producing RT and breeding RT are 2 different things. It's safe to create RT. But I'm not sure if it's safe to breed them.

Get your regular HM to branch heavily and you have your own RT. But IMO it's safer to breed out once you get them..... just my opinion.

Maybe that's what Karen is doing .... IMO, RT will sell. That's why people keep making them.


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## Luimeril

not saying those aren't RTs from Karen, but my Ichi is a delta, and a very lazy flare-er.... he'll either flare his fins, or his gills, but never both at the same time, so sometimes when he flares, what's left of his tail will overlap like that. but, i know for SURE he's not an RT(because when he flares his tail, it doesn't overlap). 

and, from what i gather, breeding HMs will sometimes produce an RT, or an HM with heavy branching. it's safer to breed an HM with heavy branching, than a true, blue RT. but, i'm not itching to argue with anyone. i got the info i was wanting to know.


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## Bettas Rule

indjo said:


> IMO producing RT and breeding RT are 2 different things. It's safe to create RT. But I'm not sure if it's safe to breed them.
> 
> Get your regular HM to branch heavily and you have your own RT. But IMO it's safer to breed out once you get them..... just my opinion.
> 
> Maybe that's what Karen is doing .... IMO, RT will sell. That's why people keep making them.


The last fish on there was a blue RT that was labeled as a proven breeder. So that must mean that she bred that RT. I think that it just proves that RT's are not bad fish especially if you make them yourself and you know they don't have X factor lines. Sure you don't want to keep breeding RT into one another it's no different than doubletail, to much is a bad thing. But one RT and normal HM will create balanced beautiful fish with excellent finnage.


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## dramaqueen

Actually, I don't see what all the fuss is over rosetails. To anyone who wants to breed them: that's fine if you want to take the chance of having a bunch of deformed fish that you'll have to cull. I myself wouldn't want to bring fish into the world only to have to cull them because they're too deformed to live a decent life. If we can't have a respectful discussion about this without being arguementative then the thread will be closed.


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## purplemuffin

I can see both sides in a way.

On the one hand, a breeder dedicated to the project and the health of the fish has a chance to create a new strong line of rose tails, re writing their name forever. Through years and patience--out crossing, breeding back to half moons, back to rosetails, etc... One could theoretically reduce the amount of deformed fry to the point where there are the same amount of deformities as you would find in a spawn of actual halfmoons or crown tails, etc... Possibly even getting rid of the x factor gene through fresh, strong blood and..well, there would probably be a lot of culling. Probably a lot of failed spawns where none of the babies could be used for breeding(if 60 percent of the babies are deformed..I wouldn't even breed the ones who aren't because the gene is clearly strong in this line)

I've seen this with ball pythons. Caramels are known for 'kinking' (where their spine is crooked) and it was a negative thing to consider breeding them..but those determined and dedicated to the project have managed to create kink free lines! Took forever..but that could happen with rosetails. OR it could simply be a failed gene. Maybe if anything they could be strengthened to the point where they are actually useful in breeding. Maybe you can never breed rt to rt, but maybe in the future with breeding strong lines you could SAFELY breed rt to hm to create beautiful hms as well as rts... Without worrying about deformed fry! That would be cool.

But then I DO think it's important to treat them as something..well, not encouraged to breed. We have enough issues with incredibly weak bettas as it is, too many people ONLY breeding for color and form, even if it means lines of weaker and sicker fish. Not as many hardy bettas around as their used to be.. I think the warnings out are important as it helps new breeders not make the mistake of their first breeding attempt to be a feather/rosetail pair..only to end up having to cull the majority of their spawn and being unable to rehome the rest of the babies. 

If someone wants rosetails to be their personal pet project, by all means, go for it. But it shouldn't seem like just any regular old breeding. It's going to take a lot of dedication to the breed and the fish's health!


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## Bettas Rule

purplemuffin said:


> I can see both sides in a way.
> 
> On the one hand, a breeder dedicated to the project and the health of the fish has a chance to create a new strong line of rose tails, re writing their name forever. Through years and patience--out crossing, breeding back to half moons, back to rosetails, etc... One could theoretically reduce the amount of deformed fry to the point where there are the same amount of deformities as you would find in a spawn of actual halfmoons or crown tails, etc... Possibly even getting rid of the x factor gene through fresh, strong blood and..well, there would probably be a lot of culling. Probably a lot of failed spawns where none of the babies could be used for breeding(if 60 percent of the babies are deformed..I wouldn't even breed the ones who aren't because the gene is clearly strong in this line)
> 
> I've seen this with ball pythons. Caramels are known for 'kinking' (where their spine is crooked) and it was a negative thing to consider breeding them..but those determined and dedicated to the project have managed to create kink free lines! Took forever..but that could happen with rosetails. OR it could simply be a failed gene. Maybe if anything they could be strengthened to the point where they are actually useful in breeding. Maybe you can never breed rt to rt, but maybe in the future with breeding strong lines you could SAFELY breed rt to hm to create beautiful hms as well as rts... Without worrying about deformed fry! That would be cool.
> 
> But then I DO think it's important to treat them as something..well, not encouraged to breed. We have enough issues with incredibly weak bettas as it is, too many people ONLY breeding for color and form, even if it means lines of weaker and sicker fish. Not as many hardy bettas around as their used to be.. I think the warnings out are important as it helps new breeders not make the mistake of their first breeding attempt to be a feather/rosetail pair..only to end up having to cull the majority of their spawn and being unable to rehome the rest of the babies.
> 
> If someone wants rosetails to be their personal pet project, by all means, go for it. But it shouldn't seem like just any regular old breeding. It's going to take a lot of dedication to the breed and the fish's health!



I agree with you completely, very well said.


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