# Thai betta breeding--seems cruel but makes happy fish?



## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Hi, I just saw a video about betta breeders in Thailand. The breeders in this video kept so many bettas in tiny, so TINY (like probably .10 of a gallon!) jars that have hardly any air. They only feed them every few days, and they just refill the water in the jars when it gets really low. So then, seeing these bettas, I got confused. The bettas here are very happy looking. They are so active, just acting as happy and healthy as most pet bettas kept in 5-10 gallons! It's so weird! Then, at Petsmart, the bettas in relatively clean cups are always so stressed. I understand it might be the cold in Petsmart but a lot of people keep bettas in big, heated, filtered tanks and they get sick & stressed. So weird. Any ideas why the Thai bettas are always so healthy?


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

Im not sure exactly why, but temperature probably has something to do with it.
and im sure that being shipped for several days, then put into a completly clear cup next to other bettas would be stressful.
and im sure most Thai breeders know what there doing. 
but its not like bettas can be "happy" as we experience it anyways.
and id immagine theres a fair share of them that die due to diseases ect. but i doubt the number that die would have any affect on the breeders because they have thousands of fish. thats just my "ideas" though lol.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

I certainly don't agree w/ you that bettas can't be "happy" I have bettas I know are happy. But I was thinking temperature. So maybe there's something about Thailand that isn't here, even if we have a heater.


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

i said they cant be happy like we experience it. happiness is a human emotion, that we feel. bettas live to eat,defend their teritory, reproduce and keep the cycle going so IMHO they cant exactly be happy, just healthy.

i also think that if you are really properly caring for your betta in his 5 or 10g setup like you said in the original post, then they really wont get sick, or ever be stressed, when a betta gets sick there almost always a definate answer of why it got sick because the owner didnt do this or that properly. anyways just my two cents.

I noticed you signature sais animal communicator, can you communicate with fish?


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

That is fine, it's you'r personal belief, but my belief is that all beings can experience love, happiness, sadness, and pain. Maybe though for some, "happy" is more like "content" because an animal might just be content with their life but not feel "happy" or "exited".

As for well-cared-for bettas getting sick, my betta was kept in a 10g with Omega One betta pellets, Hikari bloodworms/brineshrimp for a treat, a filter, heater, (heated to 76-80 F) plants for hiding, no ammonia nitrite nitrate ect. mostly perfect water, water change (25 percent) every week, you know, just basically perfect. He got so sick I thought he'd die! The reason I posted this thread is to say "hmm, maybe there's not such a definate answer of betta care if you can keep nice, healthy bettas in tiny cups sometimes in Thailand"

Yes I communicate with fish! My boy Yin (the one who was sick & now fully recovered) has told me he's happy. That's why I say fish can be happy. But as I said, maybe "content" is a better way to put it than "happy."


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I both agree and do not agree about the capability of fish to be "happy." Fish have very simple nervous systems, and do not process information the same way we do. They don't have much of a brain. However, they are not machines. They are capable of some sort of reasoning, and probably simple "base" emotions. However, there is no real way for us to know.

Remember: _Fish are not human._ Their needs are not human. Their wants, desires, and requirements for good health are not those of a human. Treating them as little scaled humans is a terrible idea; such thinking has a very sad effect of pushing aside their true needs in order to satisfy their owner's imagined ones.

Based on a combination of research and my own personal observation, the fish can be perfectly "happy" (and by that, I mean stress-free, energetic, and healthy) in very small containers. All that is required is nutritious food, clean water, and ideally some stimulation in the form of flare exercises once or twice a day.

I do not know of any breeders that feed their fish only every few days, nor do I know any that neglect their water conditions. The Thai breeders are changing water religiously. In outside breeding facilities, the rain may be doing part of the job for them - and it rains A LOT in Thailand.

Water quality is key. One of the most experienced breeders that I know keeps his fish in mason jars.

Remember, these fish are native to Thailand. We cannot perfectly reproduce their habitat in our homes, and the stores can't, either. Typically in a store, the stressed fish are going to be stressed from a combination of poor water quality, low temperatures, lack of cover, constantly visible neighbors, and constant handling by customers.


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

yes thats is what i believe, not that you or anyone else has to. i also believe animals feel pain ect....i just...i feel like portraying a human emotion on a animal isnt right, our brains and their brains are different , if you know what i mean.
I agree Hrutan about how you said they are they are "happy"

and maybe he had a weak immune system? i could see that happening since theyve been bread so much, what was he sick with?

thats really neat, ive always wished my fish could talk to me lol, its just so hard to tell what they are feeling.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

hrutan said:


> I both agree and do not agree about the capability of fish to be "happy." Fish have very simple nervous systems, and do not process information the same way we do. They don't have much of a brain. However, they are not machines. They are capable of some sort of reasoning, and probably simple "base" emotions. However, there is no real way for us to know.


I don't know if I can get across to you this way, it depends on how you feel about Animal Communication, but I believe I do know, at least the most obvious, way a fish thinks. My fish don't act like they are "simple". Not when you look at them & see the true them. I totally agree that it's not usually good to say animals/fish are like us. But as you kind of stated, it is hard to know exactly what they ARE like. But if you can communicate with them, there's your answer! So I have been taking communication lessons, & the bettas I have don't seem to be that simple in thinking. But I can't convince you if you'r not ready to be convinced. Maybe you'll discover it yourself one day; maybe not. But it's up to you.

Because this post started with Thailand, & since bettas come from Thailand, here's the Thai theory I found online about the way you think/experience:
Jai is the word for the heart, mind, & spirit. So all your emotions, according to the Thai language, come from the heart, mind and spirit together. For example, See Jai means you feel happy/good. So basically that means "Happy Heart", "Happy Mind" and "Happy Spirit". That means that according to the Thai language, you experience emotions through all 3 of those parts of you. This concept is shared w/ many cultures. So that means that bettas can feel emotions through heart & spirit too. Everyone, according to my belief, has a powerful "whole" soul/spirit. & I don't see where bettas are short of heart, either!  Bettas love their people, most of us know that.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

kjg1029 said:


> yes thats is what i believe, not that you or anyone else has to. i also believe animals feel pain ect....i just...i feel like portraying a human emotion on a animal isnt right, our brains and their brains are different , if you know what i mean.
> I agree Hrutan about how you said they are they are "happy"
> 
> and maybe he had a weak immune system? i could see that happening since theyve been bread so much, what was he sick with?
> ...


I don't think portraying a human feeling is right either. But my communication w/ fish has shown me at least that fish can be happy or content.

My fish just had VERY dull coloration. He was hardly moving. I think he was really stressed. I did what he asked for & his colors improved & he was back to normal!

You should take animal communication classes if you'r interested! Those apply for all animals . . . even if they have different ways of thinking.


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

yes it does sound very interesting! do you have to see the animal in person to "read" or "talk" to it? (idk what its called) lol
and sorry i know this isnt the thread to be asking on, ill be done after this post lol, i dont wana spam it up!


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

That's ok 
It's easier for me to talk to them when I'm right next them, but many people (including me) CAN talk from a distance (usually called "long distance communication")

Many people who do the "long distance" communication like to see a PHOTO of the animal, at least. That's what I ask for.
If you do have more questions, I actually have a thread about that. (if you have a fish or other animal you want me to talk to, or just are interested/have questions)

Search for "anyone interested in animal communication" it's called that or something simular. (sorry, don't know how to post links here!)


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Oh, whoops, just search "animal communication" as the thread is called "anyone into animal communication"


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> Hi, I just saw a video about betta breeders in Thailand. The breeders in this video kept so many bettas in tiny, so TINY (like probably .10 of a gallon!) jars that have hardly any air. They only feed them every few days, and they just refill the water in the jars when it gets really low. So then, seeing these bettas, I got confused. The bettas here are very happy looking. They are so active, just acting as happy and healthy as most pet bettas kept in 5-10 gallons! It's so weird! Then, at Petsmart, the bettas in relatively clean cups are always so stressed. I understand it might be the cold in Petsmart but a lot of people keep bettas in big, heated, filtered tanks and they get sick & stressed. So weird. Any ideas why the Thai bettas are always so healthy?


 There's a big difference on how Asians and . . . let's just say non Asians . . . keep their pets. Most Asians see animals only from a benefit point of view. Many would readily abuse them if they cannot benefit from extra care. And to keep thousands of bettas, breeding so many pairs at a time, the smallest possible containers would be most efficient. 

I can't really say why it is possible to keep them in small jars/cups - I don't have reliable water testers. But I know food, both type and amount, plays a big role in water quality. I can feed my bettas til they begin to bloat if I can do lots of water changes. Otherwise I have to feed less, sometimes just enough for them to survive. Further worm types of food need more water changes compared to daphnia and mosq. larvae (shrimp types).

I only keep certain individuals in small jars, deliberately keeping them small for breeding purposes. But I've seen others keep their bettas in tiny cups with filthy water. Since I'm against such husbandry, I never tried to understand the how and why.

Bettas shaken (shipment) and insight of each other will stress regardless of water quality/care. Only those jarred since young can tolerate constant sight. But once they become aggressive, many will stress. This is the main reason why bettas in PLFs do not strive. And this is also the reason why I do not advise dividers in one tank. Older, less active bettas are often fine with dividers but younger males will often stress.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

indjo said:


> Bettas shaken (shipment) and insight of each other will stress regardless of water quality/care. Only those jarred since young can tolerate constant sight. But once they become aggressive, many will stress. This is the main reason why bettas in PLFs do not strive. And this is also the reason why I do not advise dividers in one tank. Older, less active bettas are often fine with dividers but younger males will often stress.


This is interesting to know. Makes me wonder if my bettas are some of the ones jarred when they were younger. To my knowledge, none of them are any older than 8 months. 3 out of 4 of my bettas seem to be doing well with dividers. I check them daily for any signs of stress and they seem to have none. 2 took about a week to get over it and the third has never cared that others bettas exist. The fourth still flares once or twice a day, but otherwise seems fine.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

That's another thing I don't understand. In the US people can keep their bettas that way (see through dividers). Most of mine will stress if they can constantly see another betta from close/next to them but can't get to them. I had two 60cm tanks (about 13g) next to each other. One male stressed, the other stopped caring. In any case both became less active and got sick. Then I moved them to a 1g with dividers. They regained aggressiveness/active. 

I used the same tank with the same water to house different males but this time I used solid dividers. They never got sick. . . . perhaps the key is activeness. I honestly don't know.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

That might be a factor. Or maybe the strains of bettas bred for the US chain pet store market are just different in their aggression levels somehow? Even my most aggressive boy does not actively try to get to the betta next to him. He flares up, but seems to have no interest in actually finding a way to get to him. He doesn't swim along the divider looking for an opening...he doesn't attempt to jump. He flares from a distance and leaves it at that. This bothered my Rose Tail boy at first, but he got used to it when he seemed to realize my VT can't get to him. Now he no longer flares back or attempts to get near the other. One of my SDs is completely non-aggressive, I had a divider incident back when I first set the tank up and they did not fight because he submitted and hid immediately. He's also never flared at all. My other SD seems to be like my Rose Tail in terms of aggression too. Flared at first, then settled down. They're all still active swimmers, eager eaters, and seem to have no issues with seeing each other. Maybe it's a combination of the lines they're bred from, how they're raised when young, and general level of health when introduced to a divided tank? I definitely only picked healthy looking boys who looked very new to the pet store's shelves. If they seemed weak in any shape or form, I wouldn't have put them in. Interesting stuff to think about indeed!

Also, my take on divided tank success too is that the order that I put them in seemed to REALLY matter. My 30 gallon is divided 4 ways. Their behavior changed significantly when I had to move them around the spaces. My RT was rather aggressive towards my non-aggressive SD at first when I had him in the left end space. So I then switched him to be between my SD and my VT. When he was put between two bettas(and one that was bigger and kept flaring at him) he seemed to learn his place and he hasn't flared up at either betta since. I keep my VT on the right end space so that he doesn't feel trapped. When I got my newest SD, I kept him in the quarantine tank next to my VT. He DID seem stressed when put between two bettas. He started to slightly freak out. So then my newest SD was put into the left end space. This seems to be working well.


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## Bessie (Sep 13, 2014)

Simply put, a breeding betta does not signify a happy betta. 

Animals (as do we) have the instinct to breed, whatever the conditions. They might have environmental cues for what season is best, but most animals will breed whatever the adult physical condition when they hit maturity. In fact, a lot of animals take poor environment factors as triggers to breed - including fish in poor water quality. It can also be a "last ditch" attempt to continue the genes when an animal knows it will die soon. It's not to say the Thai's don't look after their fish (they are very good at what they do and supply most of the fish trade) - but it is worth baring in mind that just because an animal is breeding, does not make it happy with its environmental conditions. 

That being said, in my opinion it is not wise to follow how the Thai's do things in the sense that (as has been mentioned) the animal welfare leaves a lot to be desired in general - not just with fish. An animal is 'looked after' if it has value, and breeders will do what it takes to produce that "valuable" animal. When I say looked after, a breeder will do what it takes to produce a desirable animal, healthy or not (fancy goldfish anyone? They are NOT healthy and YES I'm a keeper of fancy goldfish!) An animal may have beautiful finnage - because it's kept in a bare glass jar with no enrichment to even risk a tear for example. Is that necessarily right? Not in my opinion no. Is it flaring in the breeders cups because it's happy? Absolutely not. It's much more likely that it's infact feeling (in the animal equivalent) agitated, frustrated and somewhat stressed from the small conditions. Is it healthy in this small cup because it gets to flare now and again? Absolutely not. Flaring uses certain muscles, but turning round and round in a minute cup will only use white muscles, which leads to fatigue when proper space will allow the fish to properly use the red muscles as it should be doing. It's like saying a rabbit kept it's entire life in a small hutch is 'healthy' because it has a healthy body weight, and it's ears, eyes and nose are clear. In fact, rabbits need a LOT space to be able to binky in order to properly exercise the spine & spinal muscles and stretch out all of the muscles properly. It needs space to get bursts of speed, which will exercise the heart. You can keep the water conditions of a fish as perfect as like, your fish won't come down with a disease and your fish is subdued so you think it's happy. Does it mean it's happy and properly healthy? Nope. Every animal that has the capacity to remember and learn needs enrichment, and space is an extremely important environmental factor that not only enables a healthy body, but a healthy mind. Hate to anthropomorphise but I think it's a valuable point: I could be kidnapped and kept in a box room, fed meals that maintain my body weight and somebody could clean up my waste from the room once a day. Will I live and appear physically healthy? Absolutely. But I won't exactly be happy about it, or mentally healthy. 

As far as the animal emotions debate goes, the fact is nobody actually knows what emotions a fish feels since they cannot communicate it in the way a mammal does. Lets remember, it wasn't that many years ago that it was argued by scientists that NO animals but humans possessed emotional capacity - it's now been proved that most mammals do, including whales, primates, apes and the humble cat or dog. Certainly in my training it was attempted to force down my throat that no animals felt emotions and I told them each time it was codswallop. I've worked with enough animals including pinnipeds, bears, ostrich, reptiles, big cats, tapir, primates and chimps to know it's absolutely not the case. Not only that, an animals mood actually changes from day to day. Am I saying a fish feels the same way a mammal does? No, but they are certainly capable of feeling just as miserable in crap, cramped conditions. 

Just because an animal can live and be bred in an extremely small container, does that mean it should? Absolutely not. You're only seeing the outside of the fish; not the internal physiology or the effect and stress the conditions have placed on such. If an animal can barely move, it's safe to say it's not all that healthy mentally or in a physiology sense.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

No, I disagree! Humans (or rabbits) aren't developed to be OK in tiny puddles of water (yes I know they live in huge spaces but when the water dries up...)
If you completely assumed betta fish are like humans, this is what you get:

We have been shipped in tiny containers away from everything we know, our country, our land, our land has been taken from us! The land where we lived (ESPECIALLY if all humans lived there, as all wild bettas live in Thailand.) our whole lives! We are freezing cold because we are suddenly in a completely different climate! We are stressed because of constant moving around, & we are being carried by huge beings who make very loud noises! On top of that, we don't even have any comfort: we don't have "our people" we don't have any hiding places, we are freezing cold, there are mean, thretening humans all around (the other bettas) we are in tiny spaces, we keep being scared over & over by huge beings who lift us into the air, we are in dirty water, and that's not a situation where it's easy to recover from grief. (I would guess that you, Bessie, would agree that fish can be sad) Then, someone takes you home and EVEN IF they put you in a nice, big tank with plants and everything that they could, even if they kept you warm & loved you, you would still miss "your people". You would still miss "your land". And the heat sorce wouldn't help: the human puts a little black thing with scary blinking lights that go on & off all night. You are scared by it. Your person says "this is your heater now". No
matter how warm this thing keeps you, HOW COULD IT COMPARE TO THE SUN???

You have to live your whole life here, in this strange, strange place with the black thing that keeps you warm, in this place sooo far from your home. You will never see your own home again.



Now, see how small the factor of not enough space is? Everyone would feel different of course, but if I could choose between all that stress of moving to a strange place or living in my home in a small container, I would pick the small container.


Really, with the moving choice there are only 2 plus's and MANY minuses!
Here they are:

Plus of moving
1) you MIGHT end up in a bigger tank with lots of fun things.
2) you MIGHT end up with some human who really cares about you.

Minus of moving
1) you have to leave your home. (Thailand)
2) you are handled by many giants & scared by them.
3) you have unfamiliar bettas all around, flairing at you.
4) you miss "your people". (Thai people who raised you)
5) you miss the sun, because it was replaced by a scary black thing.



Plus of staying in Thailand farm
1) you are in your home.
2) you are calm because you have not been shoved around for so long.
3) you are around bettas who you are used to.
4) you are with "your people".
5) you have the natural warmth (sun) that you are used to.

Minus of staying in Thai farm
1) you are always in a tiny space.



I would choose the Thailand farm.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Did you miss the part where they said keeping humans and rabbits in a small space is NOT okay? 

+1 to Bessie

Physical doesn't always equal mental health. 

Also, just saying about your original post, I'm sure there are PLENTY of sick bettas in the care of Thailand breeders...you just don't see them because no breeder would put a sick fish up for sale until it's better. You can be taking perfect care of your bettas and some will still get sick. I don't think any animal really goes it's whole life without catching something or other at least once. As long as you're introducing new things into the tank, even new water, there's always going to be the risk of illness.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

No. I didn't miss that part . . . I just don't believe that rabbits, humans, and bettas are the same! Betta fish are not at all less important than us and rabbits though, it's just that they have different bodies that are built to live in small spaces SOMETIMES. I'm not one of those people who says bettas come from puddles, like small spaces better all the time (although SOME individuals do I'm sure, they have such varying personalities) or any of that,
but their bodies ARE built to be OK in drought. I know it's not the BEST thing, of course! The best would be the wild, or a big tank in Thailand or other tropical places. It's not GOOD to keep them in jars. I believe that totally. But neither is it GOOD to take them out of their native Asian countries & put them in our cold houses. (even w/ heaters, they're no match for the natural sun!)

So all we can do is our best. If you don't live in the tropics, I am not AGAINST anyone having bettas; it's just that we need to be aware that people that keep them in jars are not BAD people! They might still care about the fish! We are not perfect either, w/ our little electric heaters! I think that is the purpose of this thread. To say that we shouldn't blame others for taking "bad" care of their animals (I know I've been that way too sometimes, but I'm trying to change) because there are always things that we leave out, even in what we think is a "perfect" enviornment. The people in Thailand don't have them in good tank sizes, & they probably don't change the water enough. But here even w/ our big tanks of bettas, we do "bad" things too: the current of water from the filter, an electric heater, stressing them by moving them away from the tropics etc.

As someone said on this thread, we can't create a perfect enviornment no matter how hard we try. There are always imperfections! So just to your best. I do think that is what the Thai people are doing, they are doing what seems to work for them even though it's NOT perfect.

I completely understand the mental health! I've helped my bettas through many mental health issues. Small containers often doesn't equal more problems either: I had my betta named Yin in a 10 gal & he was very stressed. Now he's happy in 2.5 gal! I know it sounds strange, but I think bettas are happy in Thailand even if they're in small spaces, because they seemed mentally healthy. I didn't just see that they were flaring or anything; they seemed happy to me.


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

Bettas have zero concept of what "their land" is. They don't care where their heat comes from. You're anthropomorphizing your fish and that can be a very dangerous thing. They do "care" about being constantly jostled around and being cold, but that's really about it from the list you named above.

What they do "care" about (and I use that term loosely), is having a day-night cycle (which can be provided by appropriate lighting), healthy and stable temperatures, and a heavily planted environment that simulates their natural habitat. If they have these, they don't care where they are. Your hypothesis about heaters is completely inaccurate. Many of my fish hang out near the heater. Why? Because it's warm. Not scary. That's all they know. They do not have the ability to reason any deeper than that.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Your post made me angry. I don't think fish can't reason. Fish are very intelligent! They care about things in their living space. They hang out near their heater because it's warm, but fish are not really meant to be in an un natural heated space. They don't know it's not good for them, but underneath it is not good.

I'm not saying they're like humans just out of the blue, I've actually given these kind of things thought over time. Fish are like humans in some ways, not in others. There is no "good" way to keep animals without knowing what they themselves want & need. You shouldn't automatically think animals are like us, & treat them like us, but what else to do if you can't communicate w/ them? How do you know what they really DO want without asking? It's all just assuming anyway unless you can talk to them, so why not assume they're like humans? I know they must have that land "in" them. Deep inside, they know it's their place. Even though I do know some bettas can be VERY happy here, they truely BELONG there (in Thailand).


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

They didn't say they can't reason at all, but not on the level humans do. "Missing their homeland" is complete human reasoning. What about bettas born and raised in America? The UK? Then is there no issue? How would a betta that's never been in Thailand miss it? Agreed that you're definitely anthropomorphizing. Bettas in Thailand aren't usually bred outside. Or given a map of where they are. It's not like any animal is born automatically knowing what country they're in. And bettas certainly can't learn geography. These are domestic fish. They aren't caught in the wild. Half of them are probably raised in a contained basement setting, never seeing outside into Thailand or experiencing anything about it. Not even the natural heat.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

kevinap2 said:


> Bettas have zero concept of what "their land" is. They don't care where their heat comes from. You're anthropomorphizing your fish and that can be a very dangerous thing. They do "care" about being constantly jostled around and being cold, but that's really about it from the list you named above.
> 
> What they do "care" about (and I use that term loosely), is having a day-night cycle (which can be provided by appropriate lighting), healthy and stable temperatures, and a heavily planted environment that simulates their natural habitat. If they have these, they don't care where they are. Your hypothesis about heaters is completely inaccurate. Many of my fish hang out near the heater. Why? Because it's warm. Not scary. That's all they know. They do not have the ability to reason any deeper than that.


+10000
Fish are fish, not humans. They don't understand much apart from eating, breathing, mating and swimming. Their brains are so tiny and almost impossible to find, there's literally no way they have any understanding of where they are from and "what they want to say to us". They can't talk to people in secret dreams or energies, they just live and eat. The only thing we can do to make them happy is give them warm water, keep it clean, feed then a healthy diet and not stress them out. Keep the conditions like what we see in their native habitat (which you can argue doesn't even exist since for over 150 years they have been raised in bottles and jars) put your betta in his "homeland" rice paddies and he will die within a week.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Reccka said:


> They didn't say they can't reason at all, but not on the level humans do. "Missing their homeland" is complete human reasoning. What about bettas born and raised in America? The UK? Then is there no issue? How would a betta that's never been in Thailand miss it? Agreed that you're definitely anthropomorphizing. Bettas in Thailand aren't usually bred outside. Or given a map of where they are. It's not like any animal is born automatically knowing what country they're in. And bettas certainly can't learn geography. These are domestic fish. They aren't caught in the wild. Half of them are probably raised in a contained basement setting, never seeing outside into Thailand or experiencing anything about it. Not even the natural heat.


I'm not talking about them literally saying "I miss Thailand" or knowing the name of a country, or anything like that. I just mean that they have a connection to the natural sun. To the Thai people. A betta that's never been to Thailand wouldn't miss it exactly, but I'm sure they would love if they did get to go "home". (aside from the fact of being shipped.)

Actually they are bred outside: usually they are put in big "growout" tanks outside.

And I'm not talking about their mind understanding (reasoning) that they left Thailand. It's just that they come from there & have a connection to it. 

Why wouldn't they experience the heat? Even if not the sun literally shining into their tanks, it would still be relatively warm because of Thailand being a tropical country.

As I've said, they wouldn't know what the name of their country is, or where it's located, even wild bettas wouldn't. But they understand that it's where they belong.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

trilobite said:


> +10000
> Fish are fish, not humans. They don't understand much apart from eating, breathing, mating and swimming. Their brains are so tiny and almost impossible to find, there's literally no way they have any understanding of where they are from and "what they want to say to us". They can't talk to people in secret dreams or energies, they just live and eat. The only thing we can do to make them happy is give them warm water, keep it clean, feed then a healthy diet and not stress them out. Keep the conditions like what we see in their native habitat (which you can argue doesn't even exist since for over 150 years they have been raised in bottles and jars) put your betta in his "homeland" rice paddies and he will die within a week.


Believe what you will; I doubt I'll change your mind. But brains aren't everything. Kao Jai (understand w/ brain) & Hen Jai (understand w/ heart) are two DIFFERENT things! I know you'll just argue that "oh, well you don't really understand with your heart" but there are studies that the heart is intelligent, actually. You do understand some things by heart (or whatever you think gives you feelings/soul: heart, spirit, whatever you believe.) and your "home" is often one of those things. I'm not specifically saying that fish can reason, just saying they can CERTAINLY feel strong emotions.

& no, I did all those things (10g tank, Omega One food & frozen treats, 76-80 F water, changed 25-50 percent a week) and he was not happy!

You cannot keep the conditions like you see in rice patties, unless you live in one. You can do your best to, but you'll always be leaving some things out.

I'm not talking about "releasing" them to rice patties either. I'm talking about that we can't make perfect Thailand conditions.

And it is totally assuming fish are like humans to say they think w/ the brain! In order to FULLY understand them, (although we can make good guesses) you have to "put yourself in their shoes" meaning really understand them.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Well it is their profession. U can't really sue them. At least they are better than the shops who keep Bettas in cups until people buy them


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Yes, I know it's much better than most shops since it is warm in Thailand & it's the bettas natural homeland.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

> Your post made me angry. I don't think fish can't reason. Fish are very intelligent! They care about things in their living space. They hang out near their heater because it's warm, but fish are not really meant to be in an un natural heated space. They don't know it's not good for them, but underneath it is not good.
> 
> I'm not saying they're like humans just out of the blue, I've actually given these kind of things thought over time. Fish are like humans in some ways, not in others. There is no "good" way to keep animals without knowing what they themselves want & need. You shouldn't automatically think animals are like us, & treat them like us, but what else to do if you can't communicate w/ them? How do you know what they really DO want without asking? It's all just assuming anyway unless you can talk to them, so why not assume they're like humans? I know they must have that land "in" them. Deep inside, they know it's their place. Even though I do know some bettas can be VERY happy here, they truely BELONG there (in Thailand).
> __________________
> I am a 12 year old Animal Communicator. I have bettas: Cloud, Yin & Dolphin!


Well they do not know where home is. For example: If they went to a neighbouring country with climates at about the same.Also they do not even know what a plane is


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

The quote was by Miriamand Moonlight


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Also sometimes Thailand is not a betta's original homeland.There are also bettas in China,Malaysia…


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> Well they do not know where home is. For example: If they went to a neighbouring country with climates at about the same.Also they do not even know what a plane is


No, I know they don't know what a plane is. But instead of saying it from their perspective: "The thing humans put me in in the dark in a bag & move me around for a long time", I just said plane.

No, they probably wouldn't know the difference between Thailand & other tropical Asian countries. But they also COME from other warm Asian countries. But if they were bred in Thailand then shipped to any place, it would stress them out! It would, though, stress them out a lot less if it was a warm place. I'm not talking about other tropical places being bad for their health, (although probably not QUITE as good as Asian countries)
I'm talking about them being shipped to a cold climate.
They do know where their home is according to me.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> Also sometimes Thailand is not a betta's original homeland.There are also bettas in China,Malaysia…


I was just using Thailand as an example, since it's the country in Asia I know the best.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> I'm not talking about them literally saying "I miss Thailand" or knowing the name of a country, or anything like that. I just mean that they have a connection to the natural sun. To the Thai people. A betta that's never been to Thailand wouldn't miss it exactly, but I'm sure they would love if they did get to go "home". (aside from the fact of being shipped.)
> 
> Actually they are bred outside: usually they are put in big "growout" tanks outside.
> 
> ...


What you're saying is like saying all humans inherently miss Africa and have a deep connection to that because that's where we originate from. 

Animals will connect with their owners. Not a race. To think that a betta(with no perception of race to begin with) likes a Thai person more JUST because they're Thai is ridiculous.

And say a betta is raised in a basement(and yes, while some are grown outside, just as many are grown in the tanks indoors. Not every breeder in Thailand is the same.) there are MANY raised this way, say there is no window, the heat and humidity are all temperature controlled by the breeder(just like it would be with any other keeper. Simulated environment), then they have never experienced anything about Thailand.

Again, this is just getting silly that they have any concept that they "belong" in one country only IN THE SAME CONDITIONS as where they're kept elsewhere. AKA in simulated environments that they'd get anywhere else. Especially if you really are saying even even bettas not born in Thailand will think they belong there. And why? Just because they don't need a heater there? There's tons of tropical countries that can do the same. They're still in a tank. They're still not in the wild(not that they can ever go there.) They're still being fed things they wouldn't eat in the wild. 

Even if a betta had the concept or feeling of belonging, they'd get it in a proper environment just the same. My tank stays at a constant 80 and the inside is humid. They get sunlight. They have live plants and water movement. There is literally no difference between an American tank being kept this way, and someone in Thailand keeping it the exact same way. The only difference being location.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

+1 Reccka - I was avoiding this out of a desire to not hurt anyone's feelings, but let's not go overboard here. They are fish, not mystical creatures with a mysterious racial memory of rice paddies and canals, or attachments to factory farms. They are very smart, for fish. But I'll promise you, my fish doesn't miss Thailand any more than my cat misses the Middle East, or I miss Africa. That is just silly.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

I miss being a hunter & gatherer in Poland. My grandparents came from Poland. Shame I have to do my hunting & gathering at the local grocery store, though I did just cheat & phone for a pizza.

I've got a couple of Australian terriers, think they miss Australia? They were born in Wisconsin, that might explain their affinity for cheese. Is Wisconsin their home or Australia? They seem pretty cool with Chicago ATM, we have the best pizza.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I actually have wild-caught fish, as in wild-caught bettas that were plucked from the peat swamps of Indonesia and Malaysia and transported here to Australia to come and live in my fish room.

None of them show any longing for their homeland. In fact a week after arriving here, two of my three latest pairs have spawned and their fry are now off exploring in their tank.

They don't sit and mope in the corner of the tank. They already know I bring food and rush over when I tap on the front glass. They aren't scared of the heater or the sponge filter (in fact my wilds usually like hiding _in_ my sponge filters) and rather than the natural nesting site of a floating plant or IAL, they prefer their very artificial plastic canisters. 

I'm sure my fish would _love_ to get back to their home where there is the very real risk of predation, serious competition for food (many of my wild-caught fish come to me pretty scrawny), and where they are at the whim of changes in weather/climate. Particularly the dry season when most of them are found in wet leaf litter because the body of water has dried up.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Reccka said:


> What you're saying is like saying all humans inherently miss Africa and have a deep connection to that because that's where we originate from.
> 
> Animals will connect with their owners. Not a race. To think that a betta(with no perception of race to begin with) likes a Thai person more JUST because they're Thai is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I think Africa is different, because it was SOOO long ago that we originated from there (if all of us really did; some people think not) that our genetics have changed soo drasically after the number of many, many years.

I'm not saying that bettas wouldn't have VERY strong connections w/ indeviduall humans! Of corse they have strong connections w/ their owners; Thai or not. But there is certainly a connection w/ Thai people & Thai fish, I'm sure!

They wouldn't neccesarily "miss" the tropics if they weren't bred there. But some would, & their bodies are not really "meant" to be here in the cold houses of America etc. In the big picture, they would do better off in tropical countries. (I've stopped saying just Thailand because people argue that there are other places where bettas came from, which is true) But the INDIVIDUALLS might not miss it. They CAN be content here, not saying they're not ever happy here!

I'm also sure Thailand would have other kinds of air than here, so there. Even Vermont is different from New york!

I'm sure there are plenty of indevidualls who feel they belong w/ their people not in Thailand.

But as a species, (group consciousness) they are happier in tropical places.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I actually have wild-caught fish, as in wild-caught bettas that were plucked from the peat swamps of Indonesia and Malaysia and transported here to Australia to come and live in my fish room.
> 
> None of them show any longing for their homeland. In fact a week after arriving here, two of my three latest pairs have spawned and their fry are now off exploring in their tank.
> 
> ...


It is good for beings, sometimes, to be in danger. It makes you stronger.

& fish can get used to it, I'm not saying they would mope around in the corner, just like if you moved from a house you loved you wouldn't just sit in bed from grief your whole life, would you?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

So my dogs would be "happier" in Australia? Would I be happier in Poland?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I keep my cats indoors because when I was a child, my parents let the cats come and go as they pleased. Half of them never lived to adulthood; half of what was left only lived a few years before the coyotes that lived in the hills behind my house would let up a great pack howl, and then another cat wouldn't come home.

My cats do not miss going outside. They watch from the window sill, and sleep in puddles of sunlight.

It is natural for very few of a littering species to survive. Nature is neither cruel nor kind; it just is. My bettas spawned 300+ fry; about 200 have survived to the 5 week mark. In wild, the parents would be able to spawn again and again, hundreds of fry each time -- and very, very few would survive.

My fish dance every time I come into the room. They don't seem to be particularly lost in introspection. Warm, clean water, tasty food, and enough space to stretch their fins. What more could a betta ask for? The cramped whiskey bottle he was raised in? I don't long for the house I grew up in, and I'm actually _capable _of complex thought.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Fish are certainly capable of complex thought. & you might not have had the connection to that particular house, so you might have gotten over it. Some bettas would. Some probably wouldn't. Will you read my other posts, everybody, so I don't have to keep saying the same thing over & over again?
As I've said, they might not be moping around in the corners. I'm sure they love their owners. It isn't like they won't ever be OK.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> So my dogs would be "happier" in Australia? Would I be happier in Poland?


Might or might not, depending on you. Like as I said, bettas might be happy small-scale. Just like you. Junk food & pizza isn't good wild food, so true it's not as good as hunter-gathering. But people (as w/ betta fish) can adapt very well & even be really happy in places they're not native to, & dogs too. What I mean is the OVERALL species, not a person with particular origin or particular breed of dogs.

Bettas come from tropical Asia, so that's the only place the species knew before breeding.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

I don't think the Thai people feel connected any stronger to Thai fish than anyone else would just because they're Thai.

I'm Mexican, I don't feel connected any stronger to my Chihuahua than I do to my Jack Russel Terrier.

And another thing, why do you seem convinced that every house outside the tropics is some kind of ice box? If the tank is always 79+...how the heck does the fish know/care what temperature the house is? My room is 73 right now, but both tanks are at 79. They have no way of feeling that.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

The neighbor's boyfriend who is from Australia doesn't feel particularly connected with my dogs.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

> Originally Posted by MiriamandMoonlight
> Fish are certainly capable of complex thought. & you might not have had the connection to that particular house, so you might have gotten over it. Some bettas would. Some probably wouldn't. Will you read my other posts, everybody, so I don't have to keep saying the same thing over & over again?
> As I've said, they might not be moping around in the corners. I'm sure they love their owners. It isn't like they won't ever be OK.
> __________________
> I am a 12 year old Animal Communicator. I have bettas: Cloud, Yin & Dolphin


I respect your opinion but I just think that they actually do not know where is home, because animals are animals most do not have such good IQ. If we had to conclude this, we would have to find a scientist, not a 12 year old animal communicator or a betta expert (sorry if I offended anyone).


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Sorry Recka, I'm from the tropics so I cannot help you with the icebox thing


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

It's okay, I'm just trying to say that I don't get why it would matter if the location is cold if the tank the betta is in is at the right temperature all the time. 

Like for example, it's probably around 72 in here at school, but it's probably more around 60 outside, I'm not feeling the temperature outside because I'm inside. Get what I mean? It's like the same concept for the fish. You can't feel the weather outside from inside a building. (Sorry for any typos, typing on my dinosaur phone)


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Is your dinosaur phone the iPhone 6 plus or a Samsung


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Lol no! It's a dying 3 year old Motorola. Surprised it's letting me type today.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Oh ok I thought you meant a huge phone


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> Might or might not, depending on you. Like as I said, bettas might be happy small-scale. Just like you. Junk food & pizza isn't good wild food, so true it's not as good as hunter-gathering.


Cool, next time I'll blast away at some of these rabbits out back, seem to be way to many this year. I'll see if it works out better than pizza. Being connected with their natural environment I'm sure the little bunny will understand having its head blown off & getting tossed into a pot. Sounds like a happy rabbit to me. Plus rabbit is low fat, a lot healthier than greasy pizza.




MiriamandMoonlight said:


> But people (as w/ betta fish) can adapt very well & even be really happy in places they're not native to, & dogs too. What I mean is the OVERALL species, not a person with particular origin or particular breed of dogs.
> 
> Bettas come from tropical Asia, so that's the only place the species knew before breeding.


Biological classification is a man made concept, fish have no clue as to what it is about. They don't know the difference between species, genus, family, and so on. Betta is the genus, the species would be splenden, raja, and so on. If you're confusing the difference I'm sure the fish are totally unaware.

Being that unaware, and biological classification being a concept, why stop at species, or genus, whichever you may be referring to? Why wouldn't it run up to family or order? If somehow the fish is able to understand biological classification, as well as being happy we're on a whole new level. 

Why stop there with the human attributes? If you want to go further, your fish has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't have much liberty being contained in your tank. Not much pursuit of anything room in there. When you start applying human attributes to animals where does it start, and where does it end, if ever? If the fish is "happier" in its homeland why do you get involved with & support just the opposite by keeping fish?


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Maybe MiriamandMoonlight will move to Thailand soon


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

indjo said:


> There's a big difference on how Asians and . . . let's just say non Asians . . . keep their pets. Most Asians see animals only from a benefit point of view. Many would readily abuse them if they cannot benefit from extra care. And to keep thousands of bettas, breeding so many pairs at a time, the smallest possible containers would be most efficient.
> 
> I can't really say why it is possible to keep them in small jars/cups - I don't have reliable water testers. But I know food, both type and amount, plays a big role in water quality. I can feed my bettas til they begin to bloat if I can do lots of water changes. Otherwise I have to feed less, sometimes just enough for them to survive. Further worm types of food need more water changes compared to daphnia and mosq. larvae (shrimp types).
> 
> ...


Are u racist? I am Asian for your info


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Watch it guys . . . . I don't like where this is going. Everyone has their own opinions/beliefs. Please respect that., regardless what you think about them.

Hevens no!. I wouldn't be here if I were.
I've lived in the US and Australia. I befriended people from all/any country. It's just that Asian views about animals differ greatly from that of US/Europe/Australia (non Asians). And by non Asians I also include Asians that grew up and live out side of Asia.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

People from US are also like Asians. According to books and stuff, it was the Asians who brought fish keeping to britian


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Actually Chinese keep fish mostly for decor and Feng Shui (風水）(means luck）so even if there was not much benefit, we( although I don't really believe in it)would not abuse animals.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

(My friend car tyre actually burst on the day his arowana died)


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Cultural differences with animals vary wildly. I love a good steak, in other cultures cows are regarded as being holy. My two dogs are my little buddies, in other cultures they'd be dinner.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Mainland China has real animal cruelty–the animal keychain having turtles, salamanders, newts and fish.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Reccka said:


> I don't think the Thai people feel connected any stronger to Thai fish than anyone else would just because they're Thai.
> 
> I'm Mexican, I don't feel connected any stronger to my Chihuahua than I do to my Jack Russel Terrier.
> 
> And another thing, why do you seem convinced that every house outside the tropics is some kind of ice box? If the tank is always 79+...how the heck does the fish know/care what temperature the house is? My room is 73 right now, but both tanks are at 79. They have no way of feeling that.


Yes they have a way of feeling that. . . they breath the air! So they know that it is colder. & unnatural heat is different from natural heat. Not that it is really cold (or "ice box") but it is heated unnaturally.

And if you'll pay attention to my other posts, you'll see that I said: not EVERY betta fish is connected to EVERY Thai & soforth. I just think IN GENERAL.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> I respect your opinion but I just think that they actually do not know where is home, because animals are animals most do not have such good IQ. If we had to conclude this, we would have to find a scientist, not a 12 year old animal communicator or a betta expert (sorry if I offended anyone).


How would you conclude this w/ scientists?!! It is about how the betta fish FEEL. Not how their brain works.
Do you think that you need to find a scientist in order to find out whether your friend/child/spouse is feeling good or bad? Or to find out what they believe? I think not. & the devision between Animals & Humans is fake; that's not to say that every species is different; just that we are ALL CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER. Animals included. So true, about the assuming animals are like humans is bad. You wouldn't assume that everyone in the world believed the same as you. Neither would you just guess what someone believed without asking them; & just assume you HAD to be right. You'd usually need to get their testimonial first. Same w/ betta fish & other animal species.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> Cool, next time I'll blast away at some of these rabbits out back, seem to be way to many this year. I'll see if it works out better than pizza. Being connected with their natural environment I'm sure the little bunny will understand having its head blown off & getting tossed into a pot. Sounds like a happy rabbit to me. Plus rabbit is low fat, a lot healthier than greasy pizza.
> 
> I don't like sarcasm, but true that they would understand (only IF you do it respectfully, NOT w/ the additude you have in this post) you needing to eat them.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying they NECCISARILLY understand which species of betta they belong to, although I'm sure they do know they are bettas. 

We are on a whole new level. They do understand being happy.

I know, and feel bad for them, that they're in a little tank. It's not like the wild. I am aware of that. They don't have much freedom. But there's nothing that can be done about that, except love them & keep them happy.

I try my best to keep them very happy.

I'm not applying human things to bettas just out of the blue, I've given it a lot of thought! Bettas are like us in some ways.

I don't see how I'm going to help by 
leaving them in those little containers!


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> Maybe MiriamandMoonlight will move to Thailand soon


I do wish I could . . . I actually do love Thailand, not just because of bettas. I'm starting to learn Thai language!


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> People from US are also like Asians. According to books and stuff, it was the Asians who brought fish keeping to britian


True that MANY people here (in the US) keep animals only for their own good. Especially all the "factory farms" & Petsmart couldn't be more uncaring about the animals' needs!


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> Cultural differences with animals vary wildly. I love a good steak, in other cultures cows are regarded as being holy. My two dogs are my little buddies, in other cultures they'd be dinner.


I know that the cultures differ. I think actually that Thais know bettas better than us (not speaking for ALL thais, some havn't even heard of bettas; just the ones who breed them sometimes).


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Iq is related to what they are thinking.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Welcome to malaria in the tropics


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Even if they do breathe the air the room would probably be heated


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> Actually Chinese keep fish mostly for decor and Feng Shui (風水）(means luck）so even if there was not much benefit, we( although I don't really believe in it)would not abuse animals.


I'm not talking about the 1-10% of Asians that are actually passionate about their pets. I'm referring to the 90% that live in smaller cities/towns and even villages, those that do not enjoy internet connections and would only know their local way of life.

Decor and Feng Shui, how ever little, are benefits. In fact those who believe in Feng shui may be driven to buy "pets" for ridiculous prices.

Tolak: Learning about various cultures helped me respect differences. Heck, my country alone is made up of many cultures, often resulting in disputes.

MiriamandMoonlight: 
I'm sure you are very attached to your betta to be able to relate to them in such a way. Mine can't even tell sexes until they are together. . . . I got the sexes wrong a few times; 2 males will initially flirt with each other until the nipping starts which leads to fights. Due to my experiences, I conclude that if they can't even tell what sex the other betta is, how can they have more complex brain functions.

I do, however believe that they have some sort of feeling (don't know what though). A once intimidated betta may show low self esteem all its life (IMO this is an individual thing). Though eating normally, but grows very slowly. It may perk up when totally isolated, but when it sees another betta, even from a distance, it may return "shy".


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

indjo said:


> I'm not talking about the 1-10% of Asians that are actually passionate about their pets. I'm referring to the 90% that live in smaller cities/towns and even villages, those that do not enjoy internet connections and would only know their local way of life.


How do you know what percent? & what is your point, people who do not enjoy internet connections will treat their pets badly?


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Actually only some mean people abuse animals and people in the west of China cannot really keep fish cause no technology or not a lot of water
My mom's friend asked me to only change my tank water once a month.he said he was a "betta expert" and said not to trust these posts. But after I figured out about ammonia poisoning, I figured out it was a lie and I did not trust him. Turns out he is a cruel betta battler who says bettas love fighting.And he sells his Bettas at 2 years old.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

That was an example of a cruel owner


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

really? A fish can't portray "human" emotions because its brain isn't as complex? I'm sorry but that's the biggest load of nonsense I've ever read. If it was true, Animal cops, spca wouldn't exist and animal cruelty wouldn't be illegal. Fish may not be as physically capable of expressing their "happiness" as other animals can, but believe me, that does not mean they aren't capable of being happy. Dogs express it through tail wagging and licking. Cats do it through purring, horses can too. War horse is based on a true story and that's a great example here. Fish do it through color display and how they display their finnage.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

We did not say fish do not have emotions we are talking about whether a fish can know where is home


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

sharkettelaw1 said:


> really? A fish can't portray "human" emotions because its brain isn't as complex? I'm sorry but that's the biggest load of nonsense I've ever read. If it was true, Animal cops, spca wouldn't exist and animal cruelty wouldn't be illegal. Fish may not be as physically capable of expressing their "happiness" as other animals can, but believe me, that does not mean they aren't capable of being happy. Dogs express it through tail wagging and licking. Cats do it through purring, horses can too. War horse is based on a true story and that's a great example here. Fish do it through color display and how they display their finnage.


I totally agree! Except sometimes cats purr when destressed, but also when happy. It is harder to tell that a fish is happy, or what they feel, but they certainly CAN feel!


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

People. You cannot compare a fish to a cat or dog or horse or dolphin, etc. Mammalian brains are SO different from fish brains. The ability to have "human-like" emotions is not (or shouldn't be) a philosophical debate. It's a matter of science, evolution, and brain development. To distill it down to our most basic understanding of how brains and nervous systems work, to have "emotions" as we have defined them requires a neocortex in the brain. The larger and more developed the neocortex, the more the animal is capable of complex thought, emotions, language, complex social relationships, and general "higher" cognition.

Fish do not have a neocortex. I'm not saying that it's not possible that their brains have created some fundamental "fish emotions" of pleasure, pain, content, discontent. However, whatever fish "feel" is so vastly different from us and from a cat or even a bird or a rat, that it's not a fair comparison. To put it metaphorcally, you can't take a graphing calculator and a state-of-the-art smartphone and compare their value and functions in any meaningful way. They both have a processor. They both have a plastic casing. They both have buttons and wires inside. They are both technological gadgets. It would be easy to want to compare them because they share basic, fundamental similarities. But go any more complex than they are made of the same materials and both have a "brain", and you don't have a comparison that means anything.

All living things have evolved to have larger/more complex areas of the brain that they need most to survive. Fish don't need a neocortex to survive. They don't need emotions. In fact, emotions would work against them. Their brains specialize in sight and smell and competition and hunger and survival. 

Obviously I don't believe fish shouldn't be treated properly or well-cared-for because they can't feel things like we do. But your fish wouldn't know the difference between you feeding it and a robot feeding it other than those things look different. They simply physically do not have the capability to form attachments to people based on the reasons people tend to assign to them. Your fish does the food dance when you approach not because it loves you but because you give it food.


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

I just feel like all a fish would really need to care about is survival, I mean they are "made" to, eat, reproduce, care for the young and keep the population going...thats how it is in the wild anyways, so how would the bettas in our fish tanks really be any different. i just think that they cant "be happy" like a human, because they dont need to experience what we do.
im sure they experience a second of bliss, happiness, gluttony..whatever you will when they get fed, or they eat food...maybe even when they spawn. but theres not really any way to be sure...
so that is why i dont think they can "be happy", or do "human" things like that.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

kjg1029 said:


> yes thats is what i believe, not that you or anyone else has to. i also believe animals feel pain ect....i just...i feel like portraying a human emotion on a animal isnt right, our brains and their brains are different , if you know what i mean.
> I agree Hrutan about how you said they are they are "happy"
> 
> and maybe he had a weak immune system? i could see that happening since theyve been bread so much, what was he sick with?
> ...


 THAT is what I was referring to.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

There's a big difference between a brain and a mind. Fish have brains, but they don't have "minds" in the sense you mean it. Admittedly, I cannot prove this any more than you can prove otherwise. But I believe science and fact because it's real. Not because it's what I wish were true.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> Even if they do breathe the air the room would probably be heated


+1 
Even as a human myself, I feel no difference between 75 degrees heated by the heater in my home and 75 degrees outside heated by the sun. They're the same thing.

The inside of the tank is warm anyway, every time I lift the hood, I can feel the warmer air coming from it. Their air in there is not cold.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Reccka said:


> +1
> Even as a human myself, I feel no difference between 75 degrees heated by the heater in my home and 75 degrees outside heated by the sun. They're the same thing.
> 
> The inside of the tank is warm anyway, every time I lift the hood, I can feel the warmer air coming from it. Their air in there is not cold.


I can really feel the difference. I am sensitive. Fish are sensitive too, so I think they could.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

givemethatfish said:


> Well that's a little extreme.
> 
> There's a big difference between a brain and a mind. Fish have brains, but they don't have "minds" in the sense you mean it. Admittedly, I cannot prove this any more than you can prove otherwise. But I believe science and fact because it's real. Not because it's what I wish were true.


Fish think with the right side of the brain. It is a fact that the right side & left side are very different. Fish do think & have brains, so if they have brains they have intelligence, not that hearts don't have intelligence too! 
Their brains are not "less advanced" than ours, just different.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Maybe some, but as a generalization...probably not. That's what we're all saying here, your betta is not you and it is not human. You may be sensitive to slight temperature change when you breathe, but that doesn't mean they are. Plus, taking a breath of slightly cooler air won't do any damage. That's being extremely overprotective. Bettas are proven way more hardy than that. A breath of cool air to them I'm sure is nothing.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Reccka said:


> Maybe some, but as a generalization...probably not. That's what we're all saying here, your betta is not you and it is not human. You may be sensitive to slight temperature change when you breathe, but that doesn't mean they are. Plus, taking a breath of slightly cooler air won't do any damage. That's being extremely overprotective. Bettas are proven way more hardy than that. A breath of cool air to them I'm sure is nothing.


I don't mean that's a big deal. What I mean is that I can feel whether temperature is natural or not. I'm sure they can too.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

kjg1029 said:


> I just feel like all a fish would really need to care about is survival, I mean they are "made" to, eat, reproduce, care for the young and keep the population going...thats how it is in the wild anyways, so how would the bettas in our fish tanks really be any different. i just think that they cant "be happy" like a human, because they dont need to experience what we do.
> im sure they experience a second of bliss, happiness, gluttony..whatever you will when they get fed, or they eat food...maybe even when they spawn. but theres not really any way to be sure...
> so that is why i dont think they can "be happy", or do "human" things like that.


Thanks, kjg, I couldn't have said it better.Nature has programmed bettas to act the way they do to keep their species going. They react to whoever or whatever is in their environment. I can have my neighbor feed my bettas, whom they have never seen before, and the only reason they become more energetic and come to the front of the tank, is because they are looking for food. They really don't care what human gives them food. It's the fact that they see movement outside their tank and think it's time to get fed.
We cannot ascribe human emotions, or the words that we use to describe our feelings to any being other than ourselves.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Left side vs right side of the brain is a actually myth and doesnt exist. Im sorry but just because you believe in something doesnt make it anymore true,
especially if everything we know about fish and animals points to the other way.

Bettas dont even know what natural is lol and couldnt care less about humans, we are just food dispensers. 

I wonder if parasitic worms count as "spiritual" animals because it seems like its just the "cool" animals like dogs, cats, horses and bettas that get to communicate...maybe thats why parasitic worms are always so nasty to everyone


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

trilobite said:


> I wonder if parasitic worms count as "spiritual" animals because it seems like its just the "cool" animals like dogs, cats, horses and bettas that get to communicate...maybe thats why parasitic worms are always so nasty to everyone


If they're capable of love wouldn't they also be capable of hate?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I truly doubt bettas have the capacity for more than the most basic of emotions. Associative learning (I think that is the term I'm after) is a more likely reason for explaining the reaction of a betta when it sees a person, than any deep emotional response. If you have ever raised a spawn of bettas, you will realise it does not take very long at all for fry to associate people with food. I've found once that association has been made, there is a noticeable difference in their response to people. 

You only have to watch bettas cannibalising their own fry to realise there probably isn't much more than the most primitive of instincts driving their behaviour. If they were capable of 'love' on anything approaching a human level, I doubt this behaviour would be as common as it is.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> This is crazy.


Glad someone else said it




MiriamandMoonlight said:


> I don't like sarcasm, but true that they would understand (only IF you do it respectfully, NOT w/ the additude you have in this post) you needing to eat them.
> 
> But I think you're probably breaking the rules, talking about blasting rabbit's head. It could be very scary to some.


Hunting is legal. A head shot is a clean and humane kill, and destroys no meat.




MiriamandMoonlight said:


> I don't see how I'm going to help by
> leaving them in those little containers!


Every container you buy leaves room for another container, they order in more. If you don't buy them they won't sell them, and won't get more in.



MiriamandMoonlight said:


> I'm also sure Thailand would have other kinds of air than here, so there. Even Vermont is different from New york!


Which has given me a great idea, I may have a product you'd be interested in; http://organicblackworms.com/betta-air.php


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> Which has given me a great idea, I may have a product you'd be interested in; http://organicblackworms.com/betta-air.php


How is this true? Is it just a scam? It seems like one!

How do you even order it?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> How is this true? Is it just a scam? It seems like one!
> 
> How do you even order it?


Looks like there's contact info at the bottom.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> can have my neighbor feed my bettas, whom they have never seen before, and the only reason they become more energetic and come to the front of the tank, is because they are looking for food. They really don't care what human gives them food. It's the fact that they see movement outside their tank and think it's time to get fed.


How do you know this? You must be just guessing. :-?


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

The fish are trained to expect food from humans. Everytime a human goes to the tank there is a high chance of food getting dropped in. Its not love they have for us its just greed


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## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Tolak said:


> Which has given me a great idea, I may have a product you'd be interested in; http://organicblackworms.com/betta-air.php


You should ionize this air and filter it through a live Terminalia catappa. 

If I spoke my mind here I'd be the rabbit T is gunning for lol.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Left side vs right side of the brain is a actually myth and doesnt exist. Im sorry but just because you believe in something doesnt make it anymore true,
> especially if everything we know about fish and animals points to the other way.


Why is it "especially" because what you think about fish is different?
If that's the case, it also doesn't make it more true that YOU believe the opposite. We all have our opinions that might be true. & you can manifest things, it happens often.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Bettas dont even know what natural is lol and couldnt care less about humans, we are just food dispensers.


Love IS very natural. If there wasn't even anything else,
there would still be love.

We are not just food dispensers, we are their companions.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

trilobite said:


> I wonder if parasitic worms count as "spiritual" animals because it seems like its just the "cool" animals like dogs, cats, horses and bettas that get to communicate...maybe thats why parasitic worms are always so nasty to everyone


I know they have a soul . . . 
It could be!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Mikaila31 said:


> You should ionize this air and filter it through a live Terminalia catappa.












Love isnt really natural, its a human concept...one could say artificial. Do fish love their babies? Do they love their mates? not really, the just tolerate them sometimes even killing them... and if things start to go down hill or gets too stressful the fry will be the first things that get eaten.
Naturally bettas are solitary animals, companionship is the one thing they dont want. 
It would be nice if the world was all rainbows and unicorns but unfortunately most of the natural world is running on pure instinct with no foresight or rationality


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Someone made a million dollars on pet rocks a while back. One born every minute!


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Tolak said:


> Which has given me a great idea, I may have a product you'd be interested in; http://organicblackworms.com/betta-air.php



I really want to know if people actually buy this and how profitable it is. Anyone want some California beach air in a bag? :lol:


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have a pair of wilds that won't spawn here. Maybe I just need to source some nice Malaysian air to get them in the mood.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Reccka said:


> I really want to know if people actually buy this and how profitable it is. Anyone want some California beach air in a bag? :lol:


*FOR SALE: *High-quality, 100% natural and organic Colorado air. Sourced from the finest Colorado peaks, and definitely not just my back yard. Will inspire the health of beautiful nature in all your fish! :lol: $4.99 per Ziplock bag! (No, but really, there's someone selling air...? :shock

You know, bettas probably don't feel love - at least, not the same way we do. Some animals do feel love, but I've never seen anything like that in fish. That doesn't mean that they don't have souls - I've always felt that, if such a thing as souls exists, everything alive has one in some form or another. And if they don't, and bettas are just emotionless bits of life...does that make them any less beautiful, stunningly complex, and fascinating? Or, all of life, for that matter?


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

I have Some extra Wisconsin air I won't be using up for awhile. I have more than I need. I can sell it $10 PP for a 30 gallon garbage bag full. Guaranteed not to leak out. I will use a heavy duty food sealer on it. It's a great deal. Get it before it's gone!


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Tolak said:


> Someone made a million dollars on pet rocks a while back. *One born every minute!*


So sad, but so true.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I have a pair of wilds that won't spawn here. Maybe I just need to source some nice Malaysian air to get them in the mood.


I've heard that if you play them some Barry White, they will get into the mood quite rapidly.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

No no no, homeland!

http://youtu.be/CSbDVsD2AXE


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I can probably get some California beach air, but I cannot guarantee that it will not be mingled with Classic Los Angeles Smog.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> I've heard that if you play them some Barry White, they will get into the mood quite rapidly.


Someone swore by that for me, but what got my fish in the mood was Marilyn Manson.


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

I'm sorry guys, I've lost all the quotation parsing, so I hope you can figure out who said what on your own, But....

_"I know you'll just argue that "oh, well you don't really understand with your heart" but there are studies that the heart is intelligent, actually."_

No. The heart is intelligant as far as it knows how to keep itself beating at a steady 60 without input from the brain. That's it, it's self regulated.
_
"I think Africa is different, because it was SOOO long ago that we originated from there (if all of us really did; some people think not) that our genetics have changed soo drasically after the number of many, many years."_

Fun fact: our genetics have changed - probabaly less than 0.3% since we left africa, and that only accounts for a slight change in height and facial structure, as well as skin pigmintation. That's it. 0.1 of those 0.3%s are racial differences between whites/blacks/asians/eskimos/etc etc ad infinitum, so that just leaves 0.2% to evolution. Not a huge change, frankly.

_"Left side vs right side of the brain is a actually myth and doesnt exist." 

_Sorry, but that's actually not true. There's a lot of old-wives tales about left V right brains, but underneath it all, it's a very literal divide. Do betta's have it though - probably not. Their brains are missing a lot of critical structures and mass.

_"It is about how the betta fish FEEL. Not how their brain works."_

6 of one, half dozen of the other, dear. It's all the same thing.


And I don't have a quote, which makes me sad, but someone else put it very eloquantly. Most mammals are quite social creatures in one respect or another - but brain capacity is not related to size. IIRC, the top 3 most intelligant creatures are Humans (and their ilk), Dolphins (and their ilk) and elephants (and their ilk). All 3 of the groups of species are extremely social, but aren't all the largest. Notable similarities however, include much of the brain structure and lobe-ratios. They may not be shaped the same, but they all are very large compared to the animal's body, and all have special neurons in the brain called "Spindle cells" which scientists now believe are a keystone in intelligent behavior development and learning. Outside of these groups however (Elephants, humans/apes and dolphines/whales), most higher order thinking rapidly decreases in appearence. You'll find that the more 'intelligant' species have high brain/body mass ratios.

Suffice to say...Betta's are not very high on that list. >.> They're mostly operating on classical conditioning and instinct. That's not a demonstration of higher intelligence, as even _plants_ display that.


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Can someone tell me what is the topic now


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Bettas are AWESOME said:


> Can someone tell me what is the topic now[/qu
> 
> The essential topic we have been discussing is that bettas are only driven by nature's ingrained instinct, not because they like their person, or are "happy" or any number of human attributes that some people keep applying to bettas.
> 
> But I am also going to keep in mind Tolak's and Hrutan's choice of music for getting bettas in the mood...... (I still like Barry White, but am willing to see things from another's point of view as well.)


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## Bettas are AWESOME (Aug 14, 2014)

Thanks and I agree that bettas are only driven by nature's ingrained instinct


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

If Bettas don't have human emotions why would emotional music get them in the mood :hmm:

I am going with a nice rain and thunder sound track since I have heard that simulates their breeding environment the most  From a logical stand point of course .

A little Parnell Williams might help things along tho. :fish::fish:


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

From the Barry White perspective I think it's his deep baritone voice. It's kind of like the bass you sometimes feel when playing music.....it vibrates through the air and the bettas can feel the vibrations along their lateral line............ making the male look at the female and send a "How YOU doing?" to her. Since we do not have lateral lines like fish, it really isn't a human thing. 

But i really like the rain and thunder thing too! How did I not think of that? Of course as Tolak says, it would have to be from their homeland.




Perseusmom said:


> If Bettas don't have human emotions why would emotional music get them in the mood :hmm:
> 
> I am going with a nice rain and thunder sound track since I have heard that simulates their breeding environment the most  From a logical stand point of course .
> 
> A little Parnell Williams might help things along tho. :fish::fish:


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I do believe that bettas have emotions, just not complicated ones. I see my fish playing too often to think that they don't have a sense of fun, and I have one that bites at his tail if he gets left alone too long. He's very social, for a "solitary" fish. But missing Thailand or Indonesia is a bit out of the scope of their tiny brains. :lol:


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Wow that makes perfect sense Terri, the low vibrations like a thunderstorm, that's totally cool :thumbsup: I am impressed ..Thank you !

How you doing, I love it ...lol


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## hestersu (Sep 28, 2014)

Given that sound doesn't flow through water like it flows through air, I think the deep bass of Barry White would vibrate like thunder in water. 

Fish live on instinct - the instinct to survive, procreate and eat. I will not atribute human emotions to a fish. I've spent too many years diving and being in the presence of the tiniest sea creatures to very large whale sharks. It's all about instinct. Fish will thrive in conditions that allow them to thrive. They will eat or be eaten just like land mammals.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

trilobite said:


> The fish are trained to expect food from humans. Everytime a human goes to the tank there is a high chance of food getting dropped in. Its not love they have for us its just greed


They are also "trained" as you put it, to know that people will give them attention. Even if I didn't think they had complicated minds, I'd still think it's obvious they like us & want us near them (not just for food) just like dogs, & other pets.

I ask you also:
If bettas aren't capable of love & happiness, how are they capable of greed? This doesn't make sense, as greed is certainly a "human" emotion too. Love & content seems universal, but greed, I don't think many animals experience that.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Love isnt really natural, its a human concept...one could say artificial. Do fish love their babies? Do they love their mates? not really, the just tolerate them sometimes even killing them... and if things start to go down hill or gets too stressful the fry will be the first things that get eaten.
> Naturally bettas are solitary animals, companionship is the one thing they dont want.
> It would be nice if the world was all rainbows and unicorns but unfortunately most of the natural world is running on pure instinct with no foresight or rationality


They love life. They love when someone loves them, like a human or any other being. They may stress when seeing another male betta, but not at all solitary when it comes to us humans.

I'm not talking about "foresight or rationality" I'm talking about the love that guides us. Love is a feeling, not an "artificiall" thought we humans have.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> If they're capable of love wouldn't they also be capable of hate?


I think in a healthy world, hate wouldn't exist but I'm sure because of the things some humans do to them, or some animals do to them, bettas can probably hate.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I truly doubt bettas have the capacity for more than the most basic of emotions. Associative learning (I think that is the term I'm after) is a more likely reason for explaining the reaction of a betta when it sees a person, than any deep emotional response. If you have ever raised a spawn of bettas, you will realise it does not take very long at all for fry to associate people with food. I've found once that association has been made, there is a noticeable difference in their response to people.
> 
> You only have to watch bettas cannibalising their own fry to realise there probably isn't much more than the most primitive of instincts driving their behaviour. If they were capable of 'love' on anything approaching a human level, I doubt this behaviour would be as common as it is.


Of corse the love is within them. Someone watching the happenings in the world might think that humans couldn't love either. WE hurt animals & other humans a lot sometimes. Everyone does some bad things, & some good things. (not that cannabalism is neccisarily "bad", humans eat meat of other animals all the time! That doesn't make them uncapable of loving.)


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> Hunting is legal. A head shot is a clean and humane kill, and destroys no meat.


No, I meant that it might disturb someone on here who read your post, not that it was illegal.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Tolak said:


> Someone made a million dollars on pet rocks a while back. One born every minute!


What does that have to do with anything?


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

MameJenny said:


> You know, bettas probably don't feel love - at least, not the same way we do. Some animals do feel love, but I've never seen anything like that in fish.


I think if you looked & were willing to believe it, you would see that the fish love people. (especially bettas because they don't have anyone else, but other fish too I suppose).

I've certainly seen my fish love me. Also sometimes they're mad at me; like if I forget to clean the tank . . .

I'm glad at least that you know some animals feel love, I believe all animals do though.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> I've heard that if you play them some Barry White, they will get into the mood quite rapidly.


Well really, not a joke! I know bettas "dance" to some music.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Perseusmom said:


> If Bettas don't have human emotions why would emotional music get them in the mood :hmm:
> 
> I am going with a nice rain and thunder sound track


Emotional music sounds like they'd like to dance to it, but I'm sure they would like nature sounds even better.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

<facepalm>


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> Since we do not have lateral lines like fish, it really isn't a human thing


So true! :-D If we don't have them, how do we know what its like to have one? It might even be the cause of them having emotions . . . if you people say their brains aren't that advanced.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

hestersu said:


> Fish live on instinct - the instinct to survive, procreate and eat. I will not atribute human emotions to a fish. I've spent too many years diving and being in the presence of the tiniest sea creatures to very large whale sharks. It's all about instinct. Fish will thrive in conditions that allow them to thrive. They will eat or be eaten just like land mammals.


Humans are like that, not fish or land animals.

Humans are about the only ones who want to "just proceed & advance!" Animals know how to be calm & in the moment!


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> I ask you also:
> If bettas aren't capable of love & happiness, how are they capable of greed? This doesn't make sense, as greed is certainly a "human" emotion too. Love & content seems universal, but greed, I don't think many animals experience that.


Greed isn't an emotion, persay, and it certainly isn't strictly human. It's a result of competition. Everything wants the best chances to survive and procreate, and 'greed' ensures that a given creature is going to do it's utmost to get everything it needs at the expense of others. Nature doesn't like to share, and you can rest assured that any sharing that happens happens very selfishly. See colonies and herds - safety in numbers and whatnot. You don't see them sharing with anyone _outside_ the colony/herd at all.

And for the record, 'contentment' is universal, as it goes hand-in-hand with greed, but 'love' is not. They are not in any way interchangeable.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

MiriamandMoonlight said:


> What does that have to do with anything?


MiriamandMoonlight I think at this point members are just having some good natured human fun. That being said , since its your thread would you like everyone back on topic now ? Before you answer this you might want to think if there is anything else you hope to accomplish with this thread. Please keep in mind all this is just going in circles now since so much of what is being said you disagree with.

For everyone please remember our family friendly forum rule along with all rules... thanks.


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## hestersu (Sep 28, 2014)

Time to lock this thread. It's become a circular discussion.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

lostkavi said:


> a given creature is going to do it's utmost to get everything it needs at the expense of others. Nature doesn't like to share, and you can rest assured that any sharing that happens happens very selfishly. See colonies and herds - safety in numbers and whatnot. You don't see them sharing with anyone _outside_ the colony/herd at all.


The animals work together with others in the colony, but, as with SO many species, they affect very positively the rest of life. For instance bees, who pollinate flowers so they can reproduce, as well as helping the bees themselves. They do it for themselves AND the flowers.


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## MiriamandMoonlight (May 31, 2014)

Nature is not selfish, it is generous and forever giving, unlike the human race often is. You can lock the thread if you like.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Thanks I appreciate that MM.


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