# Why did my shrimp die in npt?



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

So I planted my first experimental npt and put one ghost shrimp in to see how things go. 

For the first few days or maybe a week, Piplup was loving it in there. He was swimming all around and up and down, looked like he was on a merry-go-round. 

Right away he stopped eating fish food flakes that he used to devour - I figured it was because the tank gave him enough nutrition. He would go through sand and plants picking on stuff, and always seemed to have something in his tummy. 

Then his energy slowly subsided (I thought he was just getting settled in). 

We went away for 4 days and when we came back we found a very lethargic opaque little shrimp. We took him out and put him into a jar of clean water. He seemed to have perked up very slightly, but then died overnight.

Overall he lasted about 2 weeks in the tank, and we had him since early January.

Any idea what might have gone wrong? Thanks!


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## Bettajungle (Feb 3, 2016)

Shrimp need a very stable environment to survive and thrive. What is the size of your tank? Was your tank fully cycled before putting him in there? Are there any plants? I have some shrimp in one of my tanks, but it is a 4 year old tank and has at least 2 years on the cycle since I last moved it. It's also planted as well. They are easily affected by ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I vacuum the gravel twice a week and ensure the water parameters are optimal for them


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Bettajungle, thanks for replying! 

It's a natural planted tank, so yes it has lots of plants.  It's a 1 Gallon tank with miracle grow organic soil and sand from a nearby beach. I disinfected the sand before I put it in. It has a red sword, a water wisteria, an anubias and a few water lettuces.

It is a newly planted tank, but all ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are registering at 0 and actually the ammonia reading is better than my tap water!

The water lettuce I got for free from someone. I rinsed it in tap water and then dechlorinated water, and then put it in the tank. Is it possible that it was carrying something that may have killed Piplup? His activity level did go down drastically after I put the water lettuce in, but he always hung out in it and picked stuff off from the roots, so I figured he just likes it.


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## Bettajungle (Feb 3, 2016)

With a 1 gallon there isn't much room for error. I definitely would make sure to do water changes daily if you keep more than just shrimp in that kind of tank. I guess I'm assuming a betta is in the tank as well. After a day the water quality would definitely be toxic to the shrimp. ..IF there is a betta in the tank as well. It could be possible that the water lettuce could have something to do with it


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Nope, no betta. I really want to know what I am doing before I put our betta boy in it. Hmm, so what could be in the water lettuce? And how do I know, if all the params are 0, whether the tank is safe for another shrimp or for fish?


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## Bettajungle (Feb 3, 2016)

How was the tank cycled? If there isn't any new ammonia being produced daily, the cycle would be interrupted as nothing would be feeding the bacteria then they would die. Then once the shrimp gets in there ammonia rises and kills the shrimp. I'm just speculating but it could be an explanation. I honestly don't know what diseases can be passed from plant to shrimp, maybe someone more versed on diseases transferred via plants can chime in. But you may have lost your cycle if there was nothing in the tank or no ammonia being produced. Also, you really don't need to feed shrimp unless there are a lot in the tank. I have 5 cherries and haven't fed them once. I do feed my pleco that lives in there periodically though


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## Bettajungle (Feb 3, 2016)

Also a betta is way more forgiving than a shrimp, so I would do it the other way around. Betta then shrimp


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

So I am not sure what you mean by cycling for an npt. It does not have a filter, the plants and bacteria living in the soil are supposed to do the filtering. I did everything just like in the sticky from oldfishlady, except that the only inhabitant I put in was the shrimp. No snails, no fish. I did poke the soil a few times, because there is no snail, and the plants are growing nicely. I tested params a couple of times and there was no ammonia or anything, so I didn't change the water, just topped it up. Was I supposed to change it even though all the params are at 0?


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## Bettajungle (Feb 3, 2016)

Haven't seen a npt or done any research on it admittedly, but I would assume the nitrogen cycle would still be the same and take a while (30 to 60 days) to complete. Nitrifying bacteria would still need to grow and any ammonia produced by the shrimp would be toxic to him in the interim


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## Bettajungle (Feb 3, 2016)

I would use a more hearty animal such as a betta and consider shrimp in a few months. Did you test the water AFTER you put the shrimp in? My guess is that there is no nitrifying bacteria and the shrimp waste/ uneaten food caused an ammonia spike. Plants can absorb some ammonia, but they use nitrogen by in large and ammonia needs to be converted to be safe for fish /usable for plants. Picture of your setup?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

That's a good idea - to put in a betta first. I was scared because it's my first npt, so I really don't know what to expect. The betta is my son's Christmas present, and he is very much attached to it.

Anyway, here are some pictures. I'll take the ship out if I put the betta in.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh, and I tested water twice - about a week after I put the shrimp in and just after we found him lethargic. Everything was at 0 both times.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

The most important reading for shrimp is TDS (Total Dissolved Solids). Too high or too low and they cannnot molt and die. You can buy a simple TDS meter for $10-$15 on eBay. Anyone who keeps shrimp should have one.

Any shrimper will tell you bad TDS kills more shrimp than anything else. But they will also die, as noted earlier, from the slightest swing in parameters. .25ppm Ammonia or Nitrite won't faze a Betta. It will kill a shrimp.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...al-solids-tss-tds-freshwater-aquarium-122027/


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

olgamc said:


> Oh, and I tested water twice - about a week after I put the shrimp in and just after we found him lethargic. Everything was at 0 both times.


If you are testing using strips you might as well toss them, strips are unreliable. You should use a liquid freshwater test kit (api has one for fairly cheap).
You should try tested at night after it has been ark several hours or right BEFORE lights turn on to see where nitrogen levels (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate) are before photosynthesis fro plants get them absorbed.
When you set up a soil based tank its best to wait several weeks/2 months before adding fauna (fish or inverts(shrimp)) as there can be ammonia leeched from the soil. While plants may absorb it during the day, at night the ammonia levels can rise and cause complications for fauna.


edit: As a side note for your first shrimp tank its better to use a larger tank. More volume means more stable params (less swing in tds, temp, etc from water changes).
When you do water changes make them very small 10-25% at most. Drip water back in don't cup/pour as that can cahnge parmas too quickly.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Do you know your pH?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh, wow, I've never heard of TDS before! Thanks Russel! So what should you do if your TDS is too high, do a water change? And what are the solids that would be in the npt water? For some reason I imagined that an npt tank would be perfect for shrimp because it's so stable, was I wrong?

Do you think that tank would be safe for my betta at this point? It's just a 1G, but it's a step up from the unfiltered 0.7G that he is in now.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Netti - it was 7.8 last time I measured. I am guessing the sand is raising it, because my tap water is 7.4.

Aqua Aurora, I did get the liquid kit. Thanks for the tips on timing, that's very informative!


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

OK, when you switched your shrimp from his 7.8 environment to the 7.4 tapwater environment that could have killed him. Especially if had had just molted!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Netti, he did molt shortly before I transferred him. However he lived happily in the new tank for a few days, maybe even a week before he started slowing down. Or was the happy swimming like a merry-go-round actually a sign of discomfort? Altogether he made it for 2 weeks in the new tank, so would the change kill him that slowly? 

Ohhh, but when I noticed that he was sick, we took him out of the npt and put him into a clean primed water. That was not good. That's probably what finished him off then. He was already lethargic though, so something must have gone on in the npt.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Netti, sorry, just re-read your post, that's exactly what you said - the transfer from npt to tap water. Yes, that was a very bad idea.

So if he had just molted, would he have been lethargic and partly opaque though?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I only can tell you from my experience. We have soft water and a pH of 6.5 from the tap. I killed my first set of shrimp doing a water change, where my tank's pH had crashed. 

I had German Blue Rams at the time, and knowing how they need pristine water I thought I was being very clever doing a large water change. I lost a few fish in that process as well and checked my parameters, where I noticed the big difference in pH. That's why I thought to ask you about your pH.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

olgamc said:


> Netti, sorry, just re-read your post, that's exactly what you said - the transfer from npt to tap water. Yes, that was a very bad idea.
> 
> So if he had just molted, would he have been lethargic and partly opaque though?


I don't know to be honest. It does not rule out that something was going on before you took him out of the npt. :-(
I'm not sure if I would chance a trial with a betta you already have bonded with. As awful as it sounds, but you might want to get a trial fish (Neon Tetra) to re-home later.

I know it is a really unkind thing to do, especially since tetras need to be in schools to be comfortable.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Netti, that makes sense! Actually I think I did scoop out and changed a bit of his water (10-15% maybe) before we went away, so that's maybe what made him struggle to begin with, and then that last attempt at rescue definitely finished him off. Drat, I feel so stupid, but thanks so much for helping me figure this out! I am going to be much more careful next time. 

So how do you do a water change on an npt then? Just smaller more frequent ones? Or do you try to keep your ph closer to your tap?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Netti, we do have 3 guppies that we got just for experimenting. The kids are getting attached to all of our fish, but they did explicitly promise not to get upset if a guppy dies. Could I put one guppy boy in there do you think? Or should I just go with the betta, because he is now in an unfiltered 0.7G, which can't be healthy. We are not going away in any near future, so I can keep a close eye on him.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

To get the true reading of you tap water's pH you need to set some water out for 24 hours and then test it.

Your pH is not that terribly different from the tap, but yes, it is best to not alter your tank's pH for exactly that reason. I have changed my tank's substrate to eco complete and flourite for buffering reasons (I believe it has to do with TDS as Russell mentioned). It does raise my pH slightly also but I do never more than 50% water changes anymore. Smaller more frequent ones are better. 

And you are sure that the substrate you have in your tank does not have any toxic fertilizers, right? I had planned on doing a npt in my 10 gallon aiming for a South East Asian biotope but wanted to play it safe and got Fluorite substrate instead.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

olgamc said:


> Netti, we do have 3 guppies that we got just for experimenting. The kids are getting attached to all of our fish, but they did explicitly promise not to get upset if a guppy dies. Could I put one guppy boy in there do you think? Or should I just go with the betta, because he is now in an unfiltered 0.7G, which can't be healthy. We are not going away in any near future, so I can keep a close eye on him.


Well, this is a decision only you as a family can make. But if your Betta has been good in his small environment for a while then a few days more will not really make a difference, I'm thinking.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Was the shrimp jumping backwards? Going round and round in circle? If so, TDS is most likely the culprit.


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## hellobird (Nov 11, 2015)

its my understanding that shrimp require mature tanks, I’m not positive of the exact reasons, likely just that they are very sensitive to water conditions. I’ve also read that soil-based tanks will always go through a high ammonia spike as the organics in the soil break down. It could be that this happened while you were away so no readings are showing up when you test the water now.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Netti said:


> To get the true reading of you tap water's pH you need to set some water out for 24 hours and then test it.
> 
> Your pH is not that terribly different from the tap, but yes, it is best to not alter your tank's pH for exactly that reason. I have changed my tank's substrate to eco complete and flourite for buffering reasons (I believe it has to do with TDS as Russell mentioned). It does raise my pH slightly also but I do never more than 50% water changes anymore. Smaller more frequent ones are better.
> 
> And you are sure that the substrate you have in your tank does not have any toxic fertilizers, right? I had planned on doing a npt in my 10 gallon aiming for a South East Asian biotope but wanted to play it safe and got Fluorite substrate instead.


Oh, ok, good tip on the 24 hours, thanks! Didn't know that! The substrate is miracle grow organic garden soil, which seems to be the recommended choice from the npt sticky. The sand is just our local lake sand. I bleached it with 1 part bleach to 10 parts water and washed and washed until there was no more bleach smell. Then it sat in a bucket for several days, but it was still moist when I used it. Do you think there may have been something in it?



Netti said:


> Well, this is a decision only you as a family can make. But if your Betta has been good in his small environment for a while then a few days more will not really make a difference, I'm thinking.


I actually posted another thread on the betta because I think he is getting fin rot or something. I am not sure if that would be a good time to change him to the npt or a bad time? Ultimately the kids will decide (it's their pets after all), but I just want to have as much information ahead of time as I can.



RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Was the shrimp jumping backwards? Going round and round in circle? If so, TDS is most likely the culprit.


He was swimming around the perimeter of the tank initially when we put him in. I thought he was happy, but maybe he was uncomfortable? I didn't see him jump backwards. He just slowly lost energy until he became totally lethargic. Mind you, I didn't see him for 4 days, so can't tell for sure. I did see him arching his back until his tail could reach his mouth a few days prior to leaving. I didn't see an empty shell in the tank, should I look more closely to know for sure?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

hellobird said:


> its my understanding that shrimp require mature tanks, I’m not positive of the exact reasons, likely just that they are very sensitive to water conditions. I’ve also read that soil-based tanks will always go through a high ammonia spike as the organics in the soil break down. It could be that this happened while you were away so no readings are showing up when you test the water now.


Oh, really, I didn't realize that. I thought the npts just did their thing quietly. Ok, good to know, thanks. 

So does ammonia or ph or nitrites or other water params kill shrimp slowly or quickly? Can anything be done for a shrimp that's still alive or are they just too small and sensitive to be treated?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

There is a possibility that the sand could be the culprit. Not because of the chlorine since you rinsed it really well (treating it with dechlorinator after would have been best), but you can't know what toxins you might not have gotten out with the washing. That's the problem with taking things from the environment, sadly there may be contaminants that could harm our aquatic pets.

To treat your Betta's fins you could a bit of salt to his water. But maybe you already got that advice on the other thread.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

We're talking about Ghost Shrimp, correct? Ghosties are "feeders" which means intended as food for other fish. They have very poor care from the get-go. The woman at PetSmart told me 25%-50% are DOA at the store.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Russell - yes, ghost shrimp. Yes, I heard that too. I was hoping that he would last a bit longer though since he seemed to have really started out well. Poor guy. I guess I'll never know for a 100%, but all the information you guys have provided has been super valuable! I'll look into TDS before getting another shrimp. Is there anything else I should know? I read (unfortunately too late) that they also need iodide for successful molting. Is that true?

Netti, good point! Hmm. Should I dig everything up and re-plant it again with store sand?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I think I would change the sand. It's just one possible risk removed, which could increase the potential for a positive outcome with the next inhabitant.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Right, I am with you on that. Do you think the plants could have absorbed some of the pollutants and how do I get them (pollutants) out?


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

That's a tricky question. I don't know if keeping them in a separate environment for a while would be good enough to get contaminants out. Maybe you want to post that question in the planted section.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, good idea, I'll do that right now. Thanks!


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