# Questions about Colors and Genetics.



## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

I finally got a healthy betta (this time from my lfs) and I have fallen in love with his personality! I think Betta's are going to be one of my main focus' of fish keeping. I do have a few questions, and I would like to get people's opinions on what I plan to do for breeding and fry. 
First my questions. 

1. Breeding Different Colors.
I am really a fan of Mustard Gas Betta's. But I also like Slough, Koi, Gold, well, most colors. Is it okay to breed different colors, or would those make mutts? I am not going to be breeding for profit, I just want the experience and for fun. I am planning on selling them fairly cheap. As long as they are pretty and healthy, I personally don't mind, but I am wondering if that it frowned upon or anything. 

2. Breeding Different Tail Types. 
I do know that this is usally frowned upon, but what if I came across two different tail types that would be a great spawn? Would it make the fry deformed?

3. Spawn and Fry Setup. 
Right now, I am planning on using food safe plastic storage tubs. (A) I am 14, so I don't have enough money for actual fish tanks, and (B) I have limited space in my room. My parents have said I must keep all fish in my room. Or the basement. I am planning on having an adjustable 25 watt heater, possibly a sponge filter, indian almond leaves, plants, bare bottom. Once the fry are free swimming and large enough and strong enough, they'll me moved to a larger tank and so forth. 

Anyways I have to go but I would like for your opinions and suggestions till I get back


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

It all depends on what colours you are crossing and what kind you are after, a general rule I use is dont cross red to blue. I cross other colours though 

Tail types I cross, it just means you have to take a few generations to get the fins up to scratch. They wont be "deformed" unless the parents are. They will likely just have messy tails.

Your set up sounds good. Good luck on breeding them


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Why don't you want to cross reds to blues? I know they are dominant colors but. Also what if a betta that, is say, red and orange, and you want to breed it to a betta that is blue and green? Would the colors be all messy or what?


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Youll just get a mess of colours. Mainly blue with heaps of red wash and maybe if the right type of red is used youll get darkbodied reds with lots of blue irids. Both of which are my least favourite colours so I try not to make them


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Interesting. I have a nice Crown Tail male that I think came from a local breeder. He's got large, large fins, much better than one you would see at a big box store. I was thinking of finding a mate for him online. He has red/blue/black/and a little grey on him. What color mate would you suggest for him? 

Thanks for all the help, I am really needing it


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Blue x red will only give you multi blue-red in various shadings/pattern, but all will not show attractive/balanced pattern. Cleaning out both colors to be solids is very difficult.

Crossing colors and tail types will not cause deformities. Both are done for certain goals. Set your goals and plans clearly before you decide which to cross. 

If you like certain multi combinations, use such parents. Do not attempt to create your own mutation as it may not occur at all. Eg; if you want a green body with butterfly like pattern of orange/yellow - you won't achieve it by crossing green to orange. It would be best to buy a male with that pattern and hope he will pass it on to his offspring.

Try to learn as much on their genetics as possible. This may not give you a definite result (betta genetics is far from simple), but at least you will achieve something close and won't need too many generations to achieve your goals.


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Betta genetics are interesting for sure... Confusing also. So say I want (for example) a halfmoon with a koi body, and mustard gas tail. Would I buy a male mustard gas and a koi female, then hope I get what I want?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Basically yes. . . But IME that combination would be close to impossible unless a new mutation occurred. 

You will surely get both mustard gas and koi patterns in fry. Percentage can't be determined though - depends on their genetic backgrounds. Or, fry will at least carry the genes which may appear in the following generation. This is where inbreeding is necessary - fixing certain traits into your line.


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

So how do you do inbreeding? See I also breed dairy goats, and inbreeding is a no-no so I have never looked into it.. 
Also, do mutations just 'happen' or can you control it at all? I think that combo would look kinda cool.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Inbreeding is breeding siblings, father to daughter, mom to son - with the color/pattern/form you desire. It is said that inbreeding bettas is safe until 8 generations. But I never go that far. Since F4 (fourth generation) = F0 (original parents), thus I only go to F4 then introduce new unrelated genes. So it has never given me any problems.

Never inbreed traits that are associated to deformities - double tail and rose tail. . . . well not until you understand more about them. In fact it is not advised to breed a pair of unrelated DT nor rose tails because this will fix deformed genes into your line and you will have to cull and scrape the whole program.


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Alright, that makes a lot of sense. Good thing is I am not a fan of Double Tail bettas, though I do like the rose tail bettas. I have a few more questions. 

1. Are 'Dragon' bettas usually short fined?
2. What color female should I look for to breed to my crowntail? He's blue/black/red/grey. 
3. What ages should you breed, for both males and females?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

1. Are 'Dragon' bettas usually short fined?
NO, Dragon scaling can occur on all fin types

2. What color female should I look for to breed to my crowntail? He's blue/black/red/grey. 
Pictures would help. 
But since he's a CT, I'd suggest another CT. Unless you are trying to improve . . . say his fin spread. Color wise - depends on what color you want to create.

3. What ages should you breed, for both males and females?
It is believed (in my country) they will be genetically "stable" after 5 months - eggs/fry will be stronger. IME, at that age they will also be large enough to give you better numbers (eggs). But they can be bred at 4 months or even earlier if they sexually mature faster.

I often keep my females in small containers - if I plan to breed her to son. This will stunt her growth so that her fry could catch up to her size faster.


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Yes I would like another crowntail. He has a great (IMO) fin spread, so I would pretty much be going for color and to make sure it is healthy  I'll try and find/get a picture of him..


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Here are some pictures of him. They don't really show him because that's when I first got him and he had SBD, so he wasn't showing off. When he is flaring, I think he's quite the looker. 

Here.


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## Artemis (Mar 9, 2013)

I love the blue lips! +1 to a 14 year old betta (wannabe) breeder. I'm working on conditioning and getting the setup ready for a plakat/delta spawn.

Personally I would go for a blue CT girl to get rid of some of that red wash. 

I have always wanted to put a betta in a pickle jar! Does it distort view at all?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Genetics/fins have been covered (not my forte anyways.. lol I just go with "this looks pretty, lets see what I get" system lol)

Only suggestion I have is the heater - you are looking at a 25w adjustable.. which is great for smaller containers/tanks, but grow outs need to be quite big (no smaller than 20g unless using multiple multiple ones) in which you will be wanting a higher wattage heater to help keep the temp up towards 84F. I would look into 75-150w adjustable heaters.

Good luck!


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Artemis said:


> I love the blue lips! +1 to a 14 year old betta (wannabe) breeder. I'm working on conditioning and getting the setup ready for a plakat/delta spawn.
> 
> Personally I would go for a blue CT girl to get rid of some of that red wash.
> 
> I have always wanted to put a betta in a pickle jar! Does it distort view at all?


Thanks! I'll go for a blue  
It really depends on where he is at. Most of the time you can see he well, sometimes, he looks larger, sometimes if he is in one odd space I can't see him at all! He's just in there for a while till I get a larger tank (on the way) because daily water change are a pain, even on such a small tank! I think it looks great though


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Myates said:


> Genetics/fins have been covered (not my forte anyways.. lol I just go with "this looks pretty, lets see what I get" system lol)
> 
> Only suggestion I have is the heater - you are looking at a 25w adjustable.. which is great for smaller containers/tanks, but grow outs need to be quite big (no smaller than 20g unless using multiple multiple ones) in which you will be wanting a higher wattage heater to help keep the temp up towards 84F. I would look into 75-150w adjustable heaters.
> 
> Good luck!


Haha, that's what I was going to do at first, also. 

Great suggestion! I was just going to use big storage tubs for the girls, heating the boys' things will be a challenge...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Your Ct is a regular scaled royal blue multi (red wash). What color would you like to produce? 

Royal Blue x Royal Blue = Turquoise, steel blue, and royal blue.
Royal blue x cambodian = cambodian (various irid level), grizzle, cellophane, royal blue (multi)

I can go on . . . .


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Crossing him to a cambodian sounds cool. What would come out if I bred him to a mustard gas? I think I would want to produce a dark green, blue, or purple, or a bright yellow, orange, or red. But I am open to anything, they are all pretty.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If you want purple, your best bet would be crossing to a lavender. But there will be lots of blue-red combination.

RB x MG = mostly blue multi and some MG. 

Bright Yellow, orange, or red is a different color line - cross a clean red to a clean red cambodian. You will get a range of cambodian and red. If the NR genes kicks in (not physically shown), you will get yellow or orange.


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

So I think I have decided what I would like to do to start out... 
1 Crowntail pair with my male and a Cambodian female
1 Halfmoon pair with Mustard gas male, and either a mustard gas female or some other, depends on what I like 
1 Delta/Super Delta pair, undecided coloring. 

This sound like a good plan? Of course, I won't be spawning them all at the same time! 

Now I just need to convince my parents to let me have another 6+ fish tanks...


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Bump if that is allowed


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## bettacrazygirl86 (Jan 21, 2013)

Just wanted to say, my male is a VT and CT mix.  His fins actually look pretty cool, in my opinion. Not show quality, but I think they look cool to me. His dorsal looks like a CT's, his anal looks like a VT's, but has some points at the bottom like a CT does, and his caudal fin is completely VT. I think it looks neat.


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## Scottyhorse (Apr 5, 2013)

Oh cool! He sounds like a cutie.


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## Roemgie (May 6, 2012)

One thing I know (from genetics at least in mammals) is that unless you can get the family line back to about 3-4 generations you can have any mix or anything. Like your boy or girl could be the odd ball from their parents but you wouldn't know until you saw what type of babies they produced.

If you aren't planning on making a business than defiantly experiment (obviously while keeping the betta's health in mind). It takes about 3.5-4 months for a betta to mature and so you can continue to 'play' with genetics within a short time frame. 

I know its favorable for some people to breed father with daughter or son with mother or even brother to sister. The idea is to draw the line more together than apart. BUT If you're not trying to pin point a specific type of betta than make sure that you maybe take your one male and then your one female and do 'test runs' to see what type of babies they make.

I just decided to make a little chart although they are very basic it was a way to express my idea lol 

It's not something to completely go by since i have never bred bettas before and am now just looking into maybe doing it in a couple of months. So I wouldn't say take my chart and fly but the idea of genetics is the same for almost everything. Only when we're involved and we're breeding for things that we want the genetic table changes because we go for more unnatural things that may or may not help the animal verses nature when it goes for similarity.


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