# I don't understand genetics.



## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

I just don't. I should have paid more attention in science class. What I don't understand is, you can mix a halfmoon and a veiltail and only wind up with veiltails with recessive halfmoon genes. BUT then you could breed a veiltail and a crowntail and wind up with combtails, a whole new tail type! Then, if you mix a solid blue boy with a solid light colored girl, what happens?!?! Marble? Is that how it works? Do both colors show up on the offspring, or just one, with recessives of the other color? If that's true then how do you get a dominate color and a recessive color to show up on the same fish?

I've been reading Bettysplendens and the sticky, but I'm starting to think it's just too complicated for me. 

You know what I want? I want to be able to put a blue fish with a red fish and have it make purple. ;-)


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## vilmarisv (Apr 17, 2010)

crowntaillove said:


> What I don't understand is, you can mix a halfmoon and a veiltail and only wind up with veiltails with recessive halfmoon genes. BUT then you could breed a veiltail and a crowntail and wind up with combtails, a whole new tail type!


You won't end up with combtails. What you get is a single tail fish with reduced webbing. The fins look very messy and it will take a fe generations to stabilize something that looks OK. 



crowntaillove said:


> Then, if you mix a solid blue boy with a solid light colored girl, what happens?!?! Marble? Is that how it works? Do both colors show up on the offspring, or just one, with recessives of the other color? If that's true then how do you get a dominate color and a recessive color to show up on the same fish?


No. You will get blues with red wash which is not desirable. Depending on the bckground of the fish you might get other things to pop up but it would be unpredictable without knowing the line. 
To get both recessive and dominant color to show on fish you need two parents with recessive colors but to carry the dominant geno. 



crowntaillove said:


> You know what I want? I want to be able to put a blue fish with a red fish and have it make purple. ;-)


You and every other breeder out there! LOL! And Blue+Yellow to green too!


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

Well, let me just say, I am SO glad I asked that question here, otherwise I may have ended up with some exceptionally bad looking fry. I want to try breeding, I feel like it will be a learning experience for me to help me better grasp the concept of genetics and what happens when you mix fish A with fish B. At the same time, I don't want to wind up with very poor quality fry. 

So, what happens when you cross two fish with both recessive colors, or both dominate? Do you still get a "wash" of some sort? 

How about eye color, can that be manipulated?

Are butterfly and marble a gene that has to be introduced into a line, or can it be created?

Eventually (that's probably a very far off eventually), I want to breed perfectly formed Halfsuns.


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

Also, how do you go about breeding a fancy betta? They have so many brilliant colors on them, I'm in love.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To understand color genetics, you first need to understand the basic colors .... or what science calls color layers. Irids (green, steel blue and royal blue) are on the top layer and are dominant. These colors will show for generations though you don't breed them with another irid color. They may show partially or merely rays on fins.

Then there's the black layer where you'll find the black, cambodian, or blond genes. This layer is said to be recessive but my experience tells me otherwise. But it isn't as dominant as irids.

The red layer regulates red pigments - extended red, reduced red/red loss, non red (orange and yellow), and the butterfly pattern. The classic cherry red is dominant and will show for generations - probably as red wash. Extended red, often mixed up with bright red (specially by me. Lol) and non red needs the combination of the black layer blond genes and genes they call NR (non red) which are carried by cambodians.

The outcome of crossing different color layers may not conform to this theory. This is because you CAN"T find a betta with pure genes or at least they're very rare. That's why it's important to know their genetic background - if you want definite color outcomes.

Through the years bettas have gone through several mutations. I would not advise you trying to create your own mutation from scratch. It would be best to work with genes that you prefer. Say you want a multi fancy, then get at least one that has such genes/mutation. Or butterfly (sort of dominant and will (partially) show for generations)- then get one butterfly as parent. Other wise you will only end up with classic color combos - wild type colors (combination of black, irid and red), irid with red fins, or red with spots of irid on body and irid rays on fins.

I hope you can understand this better. Ask as many questions as you can think of so we can better explain.


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## tanseattle (Jun 28, 2012)

I love genetics (I teach biology, biotechnology, and genetics) but never pay attention to betta genetics.


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> To understand color genetics, you first need to understand the basic colors .... or what science calls color layers. Irids (green, steel blue and royal blue) are on the top layer and are dominant. These colors will show for generations though you don't breed them with another irid color. They may show partially or merely rays on fins.
> 
> Then there's the black layer where you'll find the black, cambodian, or blond genes. This layer is said to be recessive but my experience tells me otherwise. But it isn't as dominant as irids.
> 
> ...


 
You explained that very well. I'm not saying I understand, but I do a little more than before. What are blonde genes? Cambodians have NR genes even though they have red fins, is that the same as the red loss gene or is that completely different? When you say red wash, you're referring to red on the irridesence layer, right? I'll probably think of more questions later but it's getting late. Thank you so much for trying to help me. :]


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You explained that very well. I'm not saying I understand, but I do a little more than before. 

*What are blonde genes?* Blond genes are the genes that makes cherry red (a dark-blackish red) look light and bright red because it reduces the black pigment. It can also be found in other colors - but its effect isn't as clear as in red. Yellow and orange need this blond gene as well.

*Cambodians have NR genes even though they have red fins, is that the same as the red loss gene or is that completely different? 
*NR and red loss are different. NR causes yellow, orange, white to appear instead of red. NR genes are carried by cambodians. Red cambodians mainly carries NR that makes bettas yellow/orange (crossed to red). Cambodian with lots of irids will make bettas white (crossed to irid). The blond gene is needed to eliminate the black pigment so that those colors become full and bright.

Red loss is something that causes a red betta to suddenly change pale. It's like the marble gene but in this case it mainly eliminates red pigments.

*When you say red wash, you're referring to red on the irridesence layer, right? *
Basically, yes. A betta may look solid blue or green (or what ever) but if you really look at them, the fins show some red.

*I'll probably think of more questions later but it's getting late. Thank you so much for trying to help me.* :]
Glad you could understand better.


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> You explained that very well. I'm not saying I understand, but I do a little more than before.
> 
> *What are blonde genes?* Blond genes are the genes that makes cherry red (a dark-blackish red) look light and bright red because it reduces the black pigment. It can also be found in other colors - but its effect isn't as clear as in red. Yellow and orange need this blond gene as well.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is, bettas carry many more genes than just the colors we see and that's why some bettas breed true and other colors don't, right? If you wanted to start a new mutation you would have to cross two with all the right genes that manipulate all the right layers. I would just have to learn on a more detailed level which genes to what. That's why if you breed a blue and a red betta with random genes, you really don't know what "hidden" genes they carry and you could end up with nothing more than blues with red wash. Am I understanding this correctly?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes. That's why it's important to know their genetic back ground (also for health reasons) if you want a more definite result.

Keep in mind that most of today's bettas have mixed genes so you may need to breed a few generation to get pure colors genes. Don't be surprised if you bred two same colors but get a rainbow of colors. Some "strong" genes may be carried for 3 generations - though they don't show in previous generations, but they might suddenly show in the next one. Confusing? ... yes it is indeed! This is why some replies say you can't really know the outcome, specially if you don't know their background.


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> Yes. That's why it's important to know their genetic back ground (also for health reasons) if you want a more definite result.
> 
> Keep in mind that most of today's bettas have mixed genes so you may need to breed a few generation to get pure colors genes. Don't be surprised if you bred two same colors but get a rainbow of colors. Some "strong" genes may be carried for 3 generations - though they don't show in previous generations, but they might suddenly show in the next one. Confusing? ... yes it is indeed! This is why some replies say you can't really know the outcome, specially if you don't know their background.


I always got so frustrated when people said that, but I understand why now! Thank you SO much. :]


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## moonsand0wls (Jul 7, 2012)

What would happen then, say, someone crossed a wildtype female betta with a red body and black fins, with a veilteil male with a black head, main blue body and the fins are really multicolored? (pink, purple, turquoise, red, white) ?


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

I found a website that said that Turquoise and steel are not dominant over each other and that they blend into a new color, royal blue. This slightly confuses me. Is it because two dominant colors can't be dominant over each other, so they blend? If that's true then all dominant colors (assuming they carry a pure dominant genotype) should blend when crossed, correct? If the dominant traits are red, opaque, turquoise, steel, royal, butterfly, marble, Veil tail, and crowntail then you should be able to mix any of the above to create a new color. (Blue and Red!!!!)

Wait...unless this all goes back to the layers you talked about. That would explain why red and blue doesn't make purple...Then wouldn't that make a red betta with a blue wash since blue is the top most layer?

I can understand the crowntail/veiltail cross. Although the tail may look messy, you can see an immediate effect of blending in the spawn rather than 25% this and 25% that that you would get when crossing dominant and recessive genes. 

I haven't really read into crossing butterflys and marbles, is that what you would get, a butterfly marble?

What's up with these clear finned bettas I'm seeing on aquabid? Is it an all new mutation, or is it a result of very strict breeding of whichever gene does that? (I'd like to know which gene is involved if you know)

I'm trying, I really am! I'm having to go back and forth between several pages because I can't find all the information I want on the same page!!!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

All I can say about turquoise x steel blue = royal is that Royal blue carries half of both. So in the Irid layer royal blue is most recessive compared to the other two. I'm not sure whether this is due to a new mutation sometime ago. But that is the genetic make up/code of royal blue.

Take copper for example. The genetic make up of copper = steel blue + metallic genes (according to science). To give them that "copper" appearance they need a certain percentage of red. Otherwise they will come out as steel (light shade of "copper"). Logically copper should have red in their genetic make up. But science doesn't say that. Further if they are genetically similar to steel blue; Logically if bred to steel blue it would only produce steel blue and few copper. If bred to turquoise it should produce turquoise, steel blue, royal blue (because RB = half of turquoise and steel blue), and few copper. But it doesn't. 

Copper x steel blue = turquoise, steel blue and copper (this implies that copper is turquoise + metallic genes)
Copper x turquoise = mainly turquoise and some copper. 
The only logical cross result is with royal blue. It produces all irid colors as it should. 

I don't really understand why and just accept the facts/results I always get.

I think this will confuse you ..... 'cause it is confusing me typing it. LOL
...............................

Red x Blue does not produce purple or other new colors has something to do with the layers. Eliminating one to enhance the other is common. But to create a new blend, they need to physically appear in a certain way/combination each to a certain percentage - like the copper. But for some reason regular base colors work differently to metallic and I think (still trying to figure out dragons) dragons work even more differently. 

Sorry, I'll have to continue later


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

-joins in to learn- LOL. 

Add: a veil tail and crown tail cross you get a "shag" veil tail, which then it can take 2 or more generations to get a decent combtail. I have a baby betta who is a "shag" as I call it - she has her mama's fins with her pop's crowntail coming through making it "shaggy". Males would be more visible to that shag affect, then females.

I do find it funny seeing people breed a specific color and come out with a "where did YOU come from?!" Fry :lol:

A question I will add in.... Is the dragon gene recessive? Like... Breeding a cellophone to a dragon produces...?


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> All I can say about turquoise x steel blue = royal is that Royal blue carries half of both. So in the Irid layer royal blue is most recessive compared to the other two. I'm not sure whether this is due to a new mutation sometime ago. But that is the genetic make up/code of royal blue.
> 
> Take copper for example. The genetic make up of copper = steel blue + metallic genes (according to science). To give them that "copper" appearance they need a certain percentage of red. Otherwise they will come out as steel (light shade of "copper"). Logically copper should have red in their genetic make up. But science doesn't say that. Further if they are genetically similar to steel blue; Logically if bred to steel blue it would only produce steel blue and few copper. If bred to turquoise it should produce turquoise, steel blue, royal blue (because RB = half of turquoise and steel blue), and few copper. But it doesn't.
> 
> ...


 Let me see if I'm understanding that somewhat correctly. It's as if royal blue is similar to having 4 genes instead of 2? (I'm not saying that literally, just for the sake of understanding.)

Either way, I'm going to promise myself to not work with royal blues or copper for a long, long time. ;-)

I think I've finally settled on a fasination with fancy bettas. I can't seem to find much information on them anywhere. There just marbles with more colors, right? I feel like I'll understand genetics better if I have a "hands on" experience with them, so I'm going to start breeding soon. 

I want to create my own line, but I don't want all the work done for me, but at the same time I certainly don't want to create a new mutation. I'm thinking one parent with the fancy genes, and one without. Would that be an okay place to start?


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> -joins in to learn- LOL.
> 
> Add: a veil tail and crown tail cross you get a "shag" veil tail, which then it can take 2 or more generations to get a decent combtail. I have a baby betta who is a "shag" as I call it - she has her mama's fins with her pop's crowntail coming through making it "shaggy". Males would be more visible to that shag affect, then females.
> 
> ...


 
By all means, the more the merrier! Hopefully we'll both learn a lot!


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## moonsand0wls (Jul 7, 2012)

So... can someone explain to me why my Male betta has turquoise on one side of his tail, and blue on the other? It's clearly visible too, along with other colours going out towards the tips, like pink purple and white.

o.o This stuff so confused me


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, take a look at my El Dorado (RIP)... That color right there I have yet to see again in such a vibrant yellow. That of course, as yellow is, a mutation of red. I would love to breed yellows however most are pale, or would cause more reds or oranges :lol: (the picture has not been enhanced for color btw)

Your betta could just very well have a unique color pattern...err...maybe not pattern.... but I have had a "crayola" betta who had multi colors and unlike a butterfly who has the identical markings on both sides, this fish had different ones!


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## moonsand0wls (Jul 7, 2012)

oh cool  thanks!!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

> What's up with these clear finned bettas I'm seeing on aquabid? Is it an all new mutation, or is it a result of very strict breeding of whichever gene does that? (I'd like to know which gene is involved if you know)


I'm not sure how they exactly work. But it is genetic - thus it's safe to say that they were bred for that (clear fins). Personally I'm not a fan of clear fins and always try to breed it out. But I do like milk-white fins, whether in butterfly pattern or just plain. And because I've had clear fins since my early years, I can say that they're not new.



> I haven't really read into crossing butterflys and marbles, is that what you would get, a butterfly marble?


Both are dominant - they will appear for generations to come. Butterfly being the white/clear color at the end of the fins while marble is the jumping genes. IMO yes you will have both traits if you cross them (never actually crossed them - not a fan of marbles).



> Let me see if I'm understanding that somewhat correctly. It's as if royal blue is similar to having 4 genes instead of 2? (I'm not saying that literally, just for the sake of understanding.)


You could say that. ..... actually genes work in pairs. So a royal has a hetero-(one pair consist or 2 different alleles) gene while turquoise and steel blue have mono- (their pair consist of the same allele)



> I want to create my own line, but I don't want all the work done for me, but at the same time I certainly don't want to create a new mutation. I'm thinking one parent with the fancy genes, and one without. Would that be an okay place to start?


Yes that should work - IF you can't find 2 multi fancies (it would be easier to work with). If no offspring shows the pattern you desire, then breed back to parent. 

Keep in mind that the genetic equation will not be like the theory. As far as I know fully grown females could lay up to 1300 (maybe more - I counted fry, not eggs). Assuming 1000 fry is 100% of the genetic equation, but only 100 fry survive - so which gene combo survived. I'm not trying to put you off, but this is something you need to be prepared for when expecting something specific. And this is why I say working with a pair of desired color/pattern is better than using only one...... another reason why determining genetic outcomes are confusing.

@MoonsandOwl: That is very rare - The best explanation I can think of is that every part of a betta is actually made up of tons of cells, each carrying its own code. Perhaps (wild guess) one side dominantly shows a turquoise code while the other side shows blue. Remember, a betta with pure genes is IMO non existent or very rare. But it is possible if you keep breeding for them.

@Sena; vibrant yellow and orange are rare. They usually come in a rather pale shade. 
Dragons are said to be dominant. But IME dragon x non dragon = non dragon and partial dragon (percentage depends on how strong the dragon genes are). You need to inbreed offspring with dragon scales or breed back to parent.

PS: 
Crowntaillover; Sorry I forgot what I originally wanted to explain. So instead I just answered your other questions.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Indjo you're awesome  it's true I noticed orange has "vanished" once again in my area :/ even pale yellow is slowly disappearing.


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> I'm not sure how they exactly work. But it is genetic - thus it's safe to say that they were bred for that (clear fins). Personally I'm not a fan of clear fins and always try to breed it out. But I do like milk-white fins, whether in butterfly pattern or just plain. And because I've had clear fins since my early years, I can say that they're not new.
> 
> 
> Both are dominant - they will appear for generations to come. Butterfly being the white/clear color at the end of the fins while marble is the jumping genes. IMO yes you will have both traits if you cross them (never actually crossed them - not a fan of marbles).
> ...


My email didn't notify me that you replied! I thought you had given up on me.  I've always thought about the genetic equation, when I found the first fry in my tank dead, I thought "well, shoot he was probably going to be the exact perfect betta of my dreams." So, I'm prepared for that. 

I'm not in a postion to have several spawns/lines going on at once, so maybe I'll just responsibly breed to gain experience until I'm good and ready to start.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

crowntaillove said:


> My email didn't notify me that you replied!* I thought you had given up on me.*  I've always thought about the genetic equation, when I found the first fry in my tank dead, I thought "well, shoot he was probably going to be the exact perfect betta of my dreams." So, I'm prepared for that.
> 
> I'm not in a postion to have several spawns/lines going on at once, so maybe I'll just responsibly breed to gain experience until I'm good and ready to start.


NEVER!!! Lol
Seriously, as long as I at least have an opinion or knowledge of other breeder's experience, I will always try to explain. BUT on occasion I do forget (short memory), specially if the thread has been pushed down. So if I do forget - feel free to remind me through PM or bump the thread.:lol:

Yes it's always a good idea to start with one color group instead of working with several different colors.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Breeding does give you valuable experience that even a ton of research cannot give. Plus then, you can figure out which methods work for you - I found the shock method easier, a 10 gallon a perfect size, etc :lol:


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## crowntaillove (Sep 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> NEVER!!! Lol
> Seriously, as long as I at least have an opinion or knowledge of other breeder's experience, I will always try to explain. BUT on occasion I do forget (short memory), specially if the thread has been pushed down. So if I do forget - feel free to remind me through PM or bump the thread.:lol:
> 
> Yes it's always a good idea to start with one color group instead of working with several different colors.


My males slipped the dividers a few days ago, and when I came home from work, they seemed to be taking a break from fighting, so I'm guessing they had been going at it a while. :/ His fins are shorter but he still flares around like he's the king of the world. I'm noticing a lot more red in his fins that I ever have before, but man is he a gorgeous shade of blue. It's like metallic sky blue. I love it! 

How long should I wait to breed him now since he got into a fight?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I would say as long as he does not have wounds, and you allow him to heal up any missing scales, and start some regrowth on his fins (basically a "no chance of infection" regrowth) he should be fine  depends on how long it takes him to heal.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

crowntaillove said:


> My males slipped the dividers a few days ago, and when I came home from work, they seemed to be taking a break from fighting, so I'm guessing they had been going at it a while. :/ His fins are shorter but he still flares around like he's the king of the world. I'm noticing a lot more red in his fins that I ever have before, but man is he a gorgeous shade of blue. It's like metallic sky blue. I love it!
> 
> How long should I wait to breed him now since he got into a fight?


As long as he is active and healthy, you can breed him


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