# Need help with fin rot / fungus / popeye. Everything I've tried has failed.



## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

First of all, thank you to this community for being here and helping each other. I appreciate the combined expertise here and love of the hobby. I'm brand new here. I joined to ask for help with my wife's male betta (Sherlock!). I estimate he's 2 years old, we got him 1 year and 4 months ago from Pet-something. He was very healthy looking when we got him, but has grown quite a bit in size and color since he's been with us. I think he has fin rot that progressed to fungus/ popeye/ --not sure. We are very worried about him and nothing we do seems to be working. I know we have to have patience, but he's a big part of our family and we're scared. Please help if you can.

Started with what seems to be fin rot and progressed from there. This is my first time treating this fish (or any fish). This fish has never had issues until 3 months ago (swim bladder) which passed quickly with 3 days fasting, water changes, and heater. Soon after we moved him to a heated and filtered 5 gallon tank. I have devoured everything I can find online and feeling a bit hopeless at this point. This is a new tank (2 months old) with plants and shrimp and a snail. Tank took 2 weeks to cycle before adding livestock. In the tank is Tropica Plant Care Freshwater Planted Aquarium Soil, Seiryu stone, and several plants. Fish was super happy and active in new tank for first 3 weeks, then fins started showing red edges progressing to white patches on body and 2 cotton looking fungus on fin top of body. We've never seen him like this. Usually very active, inquisitive, and friendly. Now he seems to be dying. All parameters posted at the end of this message as directed by the forum rules.

Thank you for your help.

History:
(1/13)Added betta to cycled tank with shrimp and snail companions and plants (PPS-PRO fertilizer method with Co2)

(1/27) After water change, betta acted strange. Laid on bottom a few times and hid a few times during day which is abnormal behavior for him. I watched him and noticed what appeared to be red lines and fin rot. Appetite good (no change), but started hiding more often (he was an extremely friendly betta and never hid unless sleeping). Dosed Furan-2 in regular tank for 7 days. No change. Betta developing white patches on body along with the fin rot/red streaks (see 2/01 photo). Water parameters normal (NH3-0.0, No2-0.0, No3-10.0, pH 7.0, KH 5.0, GH 10.0)

(2/03) Noticed white fuzzy spots on top of head and fin (2/03 photo). Moved to 1 gallon hospital tank with fresh water and dosed with recommended aquarium salt. Fish eventually stopped eating and white spots got bigger. Only did this for 2-3 days until couldn't stand watching symptoms get worse. He didn't eat on the last day in this tank.

(2/06) Set up a new 10 gallon hospital tank with sponge filter and hiding spots. Lowered temp to 76-78. Started dosing Maracyn Two (minocyline) and Ich-X. 1 package and 1 tsp respectively. 50% water change each day. It's day 4 and no change. White spots seem to be the same, but overall appearance worse, and fin clamping. He hides near water surface behind HOB filter (not being used, but I left it there because he likes to hide behind it) and never comes out. This fish was constantly blowing bubble nests. This behavior has stopped completely. BTW, noticed a lot of plant melt in original aquarium so removed dead or dying leaves. Worried about tank mold?

(2/09 Today) I was doing water changes each day until today when I read on aquarium co-op to not do water changes for a week, so added usual meds with no water change, but noticed ammonia spike to .25. Added 5 drops of prime (prime already added to water change). What is path forward? continue the Maracyn Two / Ich-X treatment 7 days total and re-evaluate?? I might dose regular Maracyn as well? We are all very worried about Sherlock and at wits end. Not sure what to do next. Having sleepless nights worrying that we are doing something wrong or not doing what we should be doing.
[EDIT] Just noticed that his body seems a liitle "crooked". Granted he is bent in a corner, but his actual shape is not symmetrical. It's exaggerated in the photo, but I believe it's there. If it's true, and not just him contorting near the corner, isn't that game over?

I have not yet tried paracleanse since I thought it was fin rot and fungus caused by bacteria and not a parasite, but I'm learning there's a lot I don't know.

Also bought, but not tried:
Regular Maracyn (eyrthromycin) --not the same as Maracyn Two
Aqua-Mox (amoxicillin)
Aqua-Zole (metronidazole)
KORDON Malachite
KORDON Methylene Blue
Seachem Kanaplex
Sulfaplex
API fin & body cure (doxycycline) --seems to kill fish much of the time.

I add Prime whenever I do a water change and have been adding Seachem stability since the meds kill bacteria. Noticed just today a .25 ammonia spike, so still dosing prime, but at less than with new water change. I'm concerned about the prime removing available oxygen, so using it sparingly. Keeping a close eye on the ammonia (and other levels) daily.

Pictures attached with dates of disease progress.

*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank?
5

Does it have a filter?
Yes, carbon, floss, matrix, and purigen

Does it have a heater?
Yes

What temperature is your tank?
80 degrees

Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
No. hospital tank does with simple sponge filter

Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind?
Yes

SHRIMP:
Neocaridina - red cherry
Neocaridina - orange
blue velvet (recently diseased)
Red Rili? Red with one white stripe band around middle

SNAILS:
1 Nerite Tiger snail

*Food:*
What food brand do you use?
Fluval Bug Bites
Hikari Betta Bio-Gold Baby Pellets
Tried feeding blood worms several times. Didn't take.

Do you feed flakes or pellets?
Pellets

Freeze-dried?
No

How often do you feed your Betta? How much?
2-3 times per day, 4-5 small pellets or tiny flakes of pellets (bug bites)

*Maintenance:
Before* your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change?
Weekly

What percentage of water did you change?
25%

What is the source of your water?
Tap water with prime, aged 2 - 7 days in 5 gallon bucket with heater

Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water?
Vacuum

What additives do you use other than conditioner? What brand of conditioner?
10 drops Prime (5 gallon water bucket) added 1-2 days to new water usually 2 days before water change

*Water Parameters:*
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water _before_ the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia: 0 (though has climbed to .25 in hospital tank today due to no bacteria bed)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10
pH: 7.0
Hardness (GH): 8.0 - 10.0 (10 is latest)
Alkalinity (KH): 4.0 - 6.0 (6 is latest)
Water is tested a few times a week.

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms?
January 21st

How has your Betta’s appearance changed?
Fins clamped, red fin ends, fin rot, white patches, swollen eyes

How has your Betta’s behavior changed?
Lethargy, hiding, no appetite

Is your Betta still eating?
no. today is 5th day (Feb 9th)

Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how?
Yes, outline above.

Does your Betta have any history of being ill?
No. Lived in a 2.5 gallon no filter/ no heater tank for 1 year and 2 months (I swear we didn't know better! We suck). Only shown illness since moving into 5 gallon filtered and heated tank with tank mates and live plants.

How long have you owned your Betta?
1 year and 4 months

Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased?
No

*PLEASE PROVIDE CLEAR PHOTOS*
4 pictured attached (with dates)


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## graciee (Feb 2, 2021)

heyy, he doesn't look like he had popeye but definitely fin rot. add an almond leaf to his tank and give him some salt baths 

here's a video i found really helpful


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Hi! Unfortunately 2-3 years is quite old for a fish and can be the time where they start slowing down and the immune system weakens. I applaud you as I can see how much time and effort you are putting into this fish, he is lucky to have such great parents. Medications can be quite harsh on a fish, and you can push and push as many antibiotics as possible but that can do more harm than good. 

In all honestly I would recommend a week of rest and no medications to let his body heal. I know it sounds counter-productive, but clean water, tannins, and lowering stress can sometimes be the best way to help a fish recover. I would keep him in the hospital tank and do 50% daily water changes, keep the water warm, and add tannin water. Boil 1 leave for 15 mins, let the water sit and age overnight, and pour in in the morning after a 50% water change. Repeat for 1 week. You can also add in aquarium salt. Start with 1/4 tablespoon for every 3 gallons, then 1/2, then 1, and so forth until you work your way up to 2 tablespoons per 3 gallons. Continue for 1 week with adding daily tannins, water changes, and salt. Keep the lights off during this time and try and feed him 2-3 times a day to give his body strength. After the 1 week recovery time, if there is no improvement you can try Kanaplex and Sulfaplex, one of the stronger meds.


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

Thank you both for your input. I ordered some almond leaves. They'll be here tomorrow. I'm leaning towards finishing the course he's currently on for the recommended duration, then deciding what to do next. I certainly don't want to stress him anymore than he already is.

I'm concerned that one of the shrimp we added, who seemed healthy, just turned up dead one day. Maybe he introduced something into the tank that my poor betta caught? I didn't quarantine the shrimp before adding. If he caught something from that shrimp I want to make sure we are treating it with the correct medication. I worry that the almond leavers and salt dip are effective, but usually used at an earlier stage. No matter what, I will do the almond leave treatment once we finish with whatever meds we decide or don't decide to use.

It seems that so far the opinion is anti-antibiotic meds. Any other reasons why I should stop the meds? The white spots do seem to have shrunk or disappeared, so there's that.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

That's good the white spots have shrunk! I'm not sure if you are familiar with medicine, but often times when someone is sick and is older if you bombard them with meds their bodies don't have time to recover and it can kill them. Betta's are so small and have such a tiny kidney and liver-too much can literally send their body into shock. They can easily overdose on medication if that makes sense. 
Shrimp are random, they can also just pop up dead for no reason even if you don't do anything wrong-it is normal to have a few losses when introducing new shrimp to a different type of water in a new surrounding. If something was truly wrong, they would ALL be dead, not just the one. 
@RussellTheShihTzu, would you mind sharing that story that you told me a while back about the person who cleared ups septicemia with nothing but 50% daily water changes?


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> That's good the white spots have shrunk! I'm not sure if you are familiar with medicine, but often times when someone is sick and is older if you bombard them with meds their bodies don't have time to recover and it can kill them. Betta's are so small and have such a tiny kidney and liver-too much can literally send their body into shock. They can easily overdose on medication if that makes sense.
> Shrimp are random, they can also just pop up dead for no reason even if you don't do anything wrong-it is normal to have a few losses when introducing new shrimp to a different type of water in a new surrounding. If something was truly wrong, they would ALL be dead, not just the one.
> @RussellTheShihTzu, would you mind sharing that story that you told me a while back about the person who cleared ups septicemia with nothing but 50% daily water changes?


Thanks for the great info. I'm worried about kidney and liver function as well. The more I read about Marycyn Two, the more I am wary of it. That's some serious stuff. I wish I would've started with Kanaplex first since, from what I understand, it's milder and more broad spectrum. It's hard to continue to dose the M-2 knowing how it can hurt him, but it just may be working so I should complete the 5 days as recommended. Same with Ich-X. I'd hate to almost get rid of this and then have it come back. I can't wait until the meds are done and I can do a 100% water change and add the leaves. I just hope he makes it that far. He's still mostly motionless, hidden behind the filter, and not eating at all. I know bettas can go 10 days without food, but it's hard to watch.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

I would continue it as recommended as well to hopefully clear it up. Fish can actually go upwards of a month without food, although its probably not the best...what foods are you feeding?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Just to step in....It is absolutely true about meds and age. 

When my Mom was 80 or so, she had to be very careful with even OTC meds because her body's reaction wasn't the same as when she was younger. A stupid ER doctor gave her the recommended dose of pain meds when she fell. They knocked her out for more than 12 hours!! Called her regular doctor and when she (figuratively) stopped cursing, she said he had given her nearly 3 x the dose for someone of my Mother's age and health.


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

Unfortunately, white patches are back and worse. I am discontinuing the Maracyn and Ich-X. Starting tomorrow I'm going to try Kanaplex for 3 days overlapped with Metroplex when it arrives in the mail. I decided to discontinue ANY medication if no results are seen within 3 days. Will add in salt dips as well. I think that will be it. If no results are seen, I will continue salt baths and add almond leaves to hospital tank to give liver and kidney a rest. So bummed about the white patches. One white patch even seems to have something "hanging" off it if you look close at the video linked here. This site won't allow mpg upload, so here's a link to the video on IMGUR 

FYI, I found an incredible website with info on fish disease (among other things). Lots of technical data: LINK


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

2 new videos today. Sleeping and awake. He doesn't seem to be doing any better, but is not hiding quite as much. Also ate 1 small pellet late last night, but wasn't interested in any more. He still looks awful to me and he often lays sideways. He's always at the water surface as well.

VIDEOS


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Have his eyes always looked cloudy?


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Have his eyes always looked cloudy?


No, you can see the before pictures attached to earlier posts


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

We gave Sherlock a Methyline Blue dip last night (10 seconds per label on bottle). He also has an almond leaf in the tank which he has taken to resting on top of. I have read so many things about MB being a very beneficial treatment and that it even helps with stress, so we decided to try it. Today his color has turned much more white, which is alarming. His eyes are still cloudy and the spots have not abated. If anything, they've gotten worse. I have read that afer a MB dip, it can expose areas of fungus that you couldn't see before so I'm wondering if this is the source of the overall more whiteness that I'm seeing. I've attached two pictures taken this morning during a 25% water change. He was darting around a bit so it was hard to get the pictures. Hopefully the quality is good enough for you to see what I'm talking about. He's a tough little guy. I'm jaded about continuing with the Kanaplex, but worry that he cannot just "fight this on his own".


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

I can definitely see the cloudiness. What kind of MB are you using and how often?


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> I can definitely see the cloudiness. What kind of MB are you using and how often?


MB is Kordon. Dip once per day per directions (5 tsp per 3 gallons).
I have a 10 cup container that I fill with tank water and add 1 tsp of MB. Dip for 10 seconds.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

That sounds good. Any improvements?


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

No improvements, white patches have increased. Starting to "pinecone" which indicates kidney issue from what I understand (dropsy). I'm using your advice (only IAL + salt) + MB bath.


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

To all who replied, thanks for your help. We still have hope, but if he doesn't show improvement by late next week, we are going to consider euthanizing. It's hard to watch him go through this.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

I am so so sorry for what you are going through. You truly have done everything in your power. I think the best thing right now is to not put too much stress on his body and let him rest. Feed him his favorite treats, keep him comfortable, and let him know you love him.


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## studebacherhoch (Feb 9, 2021)

I've seen many of these posts asking for help that just end without any updates. I didn't want to so the same. I think everyone who tried to help deserves to know. Sherlock just passed away. I checked on him and he was barely breathing. I then checked on him 30 minutes later and he was no longer breathing. I tried to see if I could get him to respond, but it's over. Thanks again to everyone who tried to help.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

No problem. I am so sorry for your loss, I understand how hard that can be. Have you thought about possibly making a nice box for him to rest in? When my fish pass, I decorate a personalized box and put their favorite treats in to lay them to rest. I found it at hobby lobby and used acrylic paint

One last note, if you do decide to get another fish I suggest bleaching the tank and decor and re-cycling it to prevent anything from spreading.


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