# started another sorority



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't know how this is going to play out, but I have my doubts if any will survive. After a fatal end to my last 2-fish sorority after about a week, I have taken everyone's advice and tried again with 5 females. This isn't exactly a sorority tank. It is a community tank in which there are now 5 female bettas along with several other small, docile species. I introduced all 5 at the same time too, like everyone said. 

*These 5 fish hate each other's guts.* :| There is definitely some fighting going on despite the fact there is plenty of room in this 4 foot, well planted (silk plants) and decorated tank for everyone to have space and avoid each other. Instead, they are seeking each other out and going at it. At one time there were 2 fights going on at the same time - one at each end of the tank. Only 1 of the 5 fish will beat a retreat if challenged. The other 4 seem intent on killing everyone else or dieing in the process.


----------



## Sweeda88 (Dec 6, 2010)

I would remove all of them from the tank, if I were you. It's not fair to the fish to live in such stressful conditions.


----------



## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

Are you* sure* you didnt mistake females for males? Some petstores label them wrong...


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

Yes, these are definitely females. They just _act_ like males - same as the last 2. I want to keep some of these fish badly, but I swear, I don't see how anyone keeps 2 (or even 20) together at all. I am off work and will keep an eye on them till bed time and get them out then if things haven't settled down. From everything I have read, they will establish a pecking order and all get along fine. Who knows.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

BTW... I just noticed one of these fish has a light colored "patch" on her side. Upon closer inspection it appears to be raised. Could this be some sort of contagious fungus?

Betta experts, what should I do about this? The fish appears to be healthy and acts normal (that is if kicking everyone's hiney is normal). I sure don't want a contagious disease in the tank though. I do have a filtered 5 gallon tank I could treat it in if anyone thinks I should and can tell me what this might be. I could also return it as I just bought them earlier today.

Actually, the fighting is becoming more sudued and the fish are spreading out a bit and exploring around the tank more. Maybe there is hope. :|

I may start another thread about this to try and get answers fast.


----------



## mjbn (Jun 22, 2010)

What i did with my female bettas in a 10 G with other peaceful fish was introduce them all at once. I noticed that there were 2 fights at the same time as well. It is common at first introduction. What i did was put 3 of them back in their store bought cups (i hated to do this) with tank water and salt and floated them in the tank just so that all the bettas can see each other and simmer down a bit. I kept them there for a day and when i took them out, they were still flaring and all, but not as much. They eventually formed their pecking order and thing's are going decently now. I will get hate for this.. But i think if i can get 5 bettas, 7 neons, and 5 kuhlis in a 10G, lots of hiding spots, then i think you can in a bigger tank. (PS, i'm getting a 20 long soon. I know I'm WAY overstocked.)


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

mjbn said:


> What i did with my female bettas in a 10 G with other peaceful fish was introduce them all at once. I noticed that there were 2 fights at the same time as well. It is common at first introduction. What i did was put 3 of them back in their store bought cups (i hated to do this) with tank water and salt and floated them in the tank just so that all the bettas can see each other and simmer down a bit. I kept them there for a day and when i took them out, they were still flaring and all, but not as much. They eventually formed their pecking order and thing's are going decently now. I will get hate for this.. But i think if i can get 5 bettas, 7 neons, and 5 kuhlis in a 10G, lots of hiding spots, then i think you can in a bigger tank. (PS, i'm getting a 20 long soon. I know I'm WAY overstocked.)


Though it looked serious at first, and I still am not certain it will work out, there are no damaged fins yet and the ladies are showing less and less interest in each other. Keeping my fingers crossed here.


----------



## lilchiwolf (Jan 10, 2011)

mjbn said:


> What i did with my female bettas in a 10 G with other peaceful fish was introduce them all at once. I noticed that there were 2 fights at the same time as well. It is common at first introduction. What i did was put 3 of them back in their store bought cups (i hated to do this) with tank water and salt and floated them in the tank just so that all the bettas can see each other and simmer down a bit. I kept them there for a day and when i took them out, they were still flaring and all, but not as much. They eventually formed their pecking order and thing's are going decently now. I will get hate for this.. But i think if i can get 5 bettas, 7 neons, and 5 kuhlis in a 10G, lots of hiding spots, then i think you can in a bigger tank. (PS, i'm getting a 20 long soon. I know I'm WAY overstocked.)


is the 10G for 10 goldfish???


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

I have a 5 sorority going in my 14. Working out real well on my end. They get a little testy at feeding time but overall they are coexisting nicely.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok. If overwhelming numbers is the secret things are getting better. I just returned the red one (my favorite ) which had a curious, light colored "patch" on her side and exchanged her. I started another thread under diseases, but couldn't get any fast, educated theories on what this might be and didn't want to take chances. I also bought 2 more. Now there are 7 girls in the tank. I am a little worried about amonia spikes, but the tank is well established and should be fine. I'll just step up the partial water changes for the next couple of weeks. 

At the moment things have levelled off and there is no fighting taking place, so I am cautiously optimistic here. They may settle down and decide to co-exist, but these fish do hate each other with a passion, that's for sure. Only time will tell if this works. I'll report back.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

I have noticed the 3 Serpae Tetras nipping at the new Bettas fins. If they aren't careful they will find themselves being used to cycle an old 5 gallon set-up that is in the shed needing an excuse to go back into service. :evil:

I am serious about wanting to keep some female Bettas and money isn't the object. If they can possibly co-exist I plan to make it happen and no fish in that 33 gallon tank now is going to complicate matters. 

The Bettas continue to act better towards each other, but I can't see them ever getting all "snuggly" or anything.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

Sweeda88 said:


> I would remove all of them from the tank, if I were you.* It's not fair to the fish to live in such stressful conditions*.


Sweeda88,

You will be pleased to know that this latest effort to have a Betta sorority began only 6 hours ago. All the serious fighting took place during the first hour. That was just previous to my first post and since then things have steadily gotten better. Now nothing is happening beyond a little "sassing" and some minor flaring and chasing. A blue female has emerged as the boss and she is spreading her authority around evenly and not targeting anyone in particular to make miserable. 

I do appreciate your concern for the fish, but I think some fighting is a normal part of the process that must play out if I am to be successful. I was anxious too, as can be sensed in my early posts. This too is probably normal for anyone who wants to pull this off. Perhaps in my worried state of mind I was overly apprehensive and made it sound worse than it really was. Sorry about that. 

I am not letting them tear each other apart or anything. Before it comes to that I will remove them and return them to the store without even expecting my money back - whatever is best for the fish. It looks now like the initial pecking has subsided and a peaceful sorority of females are indeed establishing themselves. 

I'll report back.

Ralph


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

RCinAL said:


> Sweeda88,
> 
> A blue female has emerged as the boss and she is spreading her authority around evenly and not targeting anyone in particular to make miserable.


Don't be surprised if the ranks continue to change. I had a red female early on who seemed to be on her way as the lower ranking female as all she did was hide in the corner by the plants and only come out for feeding. When any of the other 4 females flared or challenged her she stayed passive. This was the first 3-4 days or so. 

At present she has grown more and more confidence and it's the other 4 who are now yielding to her. 

Mine are all still adolescents tho so I suspect a *True Dominant Queen* won't emerge until they become more mature. Until then, I suspect temporary queen bee status to continue changing hands....


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

scootshoot said:


> Don't be surprised if the ranks continue to change. I had a red female early on who seemed to be on her way as the lower ranking female as all she did was hide in the corner by the plants and only come out for feeding. When any of the other 4 females flared or challenged her she stayed passive. This was the first 3-4 days or so.
> 
> At present she has grown more and more confidence and it's the other 4 who are now yielding to her.
> 
> Mine are all still adolescents tho so I suspect a *True Dominant Queen* won't emerge until they become more mature. Until then, I suspect temporary queen bee status to continue changing hands....


Things are certainly changing. I came home from work today and all 7 Bettas came up to jockey for food. There was some minor flaring and nipping but not much else. All appear to be doing their own thing without too much regard for the others, though it is still apparent there is no love between them. I did notice a nipped fin or 2 but nothing that won't heal in a couple of weeks or worth fretting over. And I can't be 100% sure it came from another Betta as the Serpaes were seen nipping at them yesterday. Will be trying to fugure this one out for sure. All in all, so far so good... enough.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

I sat and watched the tank for about an hour. These fish are curious indeed. Though there is no real damage taking place, the squabbling is apparent. A particular Betta will get approached and stared down by another and might swim off apparently shaken. Then 10 seconds later that same fish - the one that just got punked and decided to back down - will swim straight up to someone else and attempt to bully them. Then that fish - the latest to get a punking - might swim away quickly only to try and start trouble with another. A bit later any particular fish that might have just tried to start trouble with someone might brush peacefully past 2 others without paying a them bit of attention. 

There seems to be no pattern except that none of these fish enjoys the company of another for very long. They did stop the shenanigans long enough to eat together in relative peace though so maybe there is hope. There is definitely an improvement from the out and out brawling that took place immediately upon their simultaneous release. At the moment no 2 seem willing to face off and fight it out. One will always retreat before it comes to that. I think the best anyone keeping a sorority can expect is that they just are not hurting each other. I kept all the little cups they came in just in case this experiment doesn't work. My fingers are crossed. Will report back in a few days.


----------



## Alex09 (Aug 9, 2010)

I dont know... sororities are just too risky and many people quickly jump the bandwagon to do one. I mean, I remember reading a members post where he/she had a sorority for months and then one day BAM! dead fish.

I think the SAFEST way to do a sorority is if all the females are sisters who have been raised together from birth.


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

Alex09 said:


> I mean, I remember reading a members post where he/she had a sorority for months and then one day BAM! dead fish.
> .


lol, unless it's a topic related on fish health & disease, baffling techniques using sponges, etc. I take majority of the posts here or any messageboard topic for that matter with a grain of salt. Regardless of topic there will *always* be someone to counter it and/or have had negative experience. 

Ghost shrimp attacking my betta! *vs* Mine have got along great for 5 years!

2.5 gallon minimum for bettas! *vs* I have had my betta in his 1/2 gallon bowl for 5 years!

Daphnia cured my betta's bloat *vs* I will never use Daphnia gain, my bettas bloating big time, Daphnia sucks!!

etc
etc 
:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Alex09 (Aug 9, 2010)

I still think people are quite quickly jumping into "sororities" because its the "in thing". I don't think I would ever do an all female betta tank. Maybe 4-5 (sibling) females in a massive community tank one day, but not stuff eight females from petco cups into a 10 gal (I know the OP's tank is bigger, just using examples I hear). I KNOW other members here have lost females because of fights that have taken place in the sororities. Why risk it? My 10 gal tank has only one female betta and some other peaceful community fish. I like it this way, she gets to be the centerpiece and I dont risk her beautiful fins and inflict stress on her.

Example thread:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=59032

Quote from OFL, an experienced member of the board:


Oldfishlady said:


> This is just my opinion.....when you place half grown to full grown unrelated female Bettas in a 10gal tank-the stress alone causes multi problems...starting with compromising the immune response and it is down hill from that point......in my opinion....sororities should start out in nothing smaller than 20 gallons with related females or if you can only get unrelated females they need to be under 2 months of age with lots of floating plants, low growing plants and most important tall plants that go all the way to the top to the point that they float somewhat on the surface in at least 6 different places-back-sides-middle..... to break the line-of-sight-this is to give them a way to the top without being seen....IMO-it is more important to have hiding places at the top and mid level not the bottom, however, this is important too-because Betta are top/surface dwelling fish and this isn't even talking about the feeding issues you can still have with sororities........
> 
> I have seen folks post about their 10g sororities that do well for about 6 months and then crash...rarely do you hear about them being successful much longer....some do...but it is rare......this is just my opinion.......
> 
> Shinybetta...sorry about your loss......these type of setup can be a challenge even for the most experienced keeper......




Enough with my anti-sorority rant lol... It's my _opinion_ on the subject. Everyone's free to have their own.


----------



## shinybetta (Jul 3, 2010)

That was OFL's reply to my thread. In my experience sororities are stressful on the fish, and like mine did, get sick and possibly die. Sororities should be in 20 gallon minimum and the females should be related.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

Alex09 said:


> I dont know... sororities are just too risky and many people quickly jump the bandwagon to do one. I mean, I remember reading a members post where he/she had a sorority for months and then one day BAM! dead fish.
> 
> I think the SAFEST way to do a sorority is if all the females are sisters who have been raised together from birth.





Alex09 said:


> I still think people are quite quickly jumping into "sororities" because its the "in thing". I don't think I would ever do an all female betta tank. Maybe 4-5 (sibling) females in a massive community tank one day, but not stuff eight females from petco cups into a 10 gal (I know the OP's tank is bigger, just using examples I hear). I KNOW other members here have lost females because of fights that have taken place in the sororities. Why risk it? My 10 gal tank has only one female betta and some other peaceful community fish. I like it this way, she gets to be the centerpiece and I dont risk her beautiful fins and inflict stress on her.
> 
> Example thread:
> Sorority Issue
> ...





shinybetta said:


> That was OFL's reply to my thread. In my experience sororities are stressful on the fish, and like mine did, get sick and possibly die. Sororities should be in 20 gallon minimum and the females should be related.


Well, I am convinced all of you are right. There is a reason these fish languish in tiny cups and jars their entire lives - they obviously like it that way. I will never again feel sorry for them. They almost don't _deserve_ anything better. 

Today one fish, a pearl with red fins, was chewed up pretty good and almost every one had minor fin damage. The colors are not great in any of them either. And yet, the bickering and bullying continues. These are 7 females in a 33 gallon community tank (same as a 55 but not as tall) with mostly Tetras and Glo-fish. There are plenty of plants and other places for them to hide and find comfort and solitude, but no, they _choose_ to seek each other out and be miserable instead.

Bettas are not for me. These are going back into the tiny cups where they belong. They will be nursed back to full health as quickly as possible and then returned to the store. I will simply "donate" them back and consider this an education. 

These fish simply hate each other on a level we humans can't comprehend. I wouldn't risk trying it again even with a pair of newborn female conjoined-at-the-head identical twins in an olympic-sized swimming pool.

Ralph


----------



## elijahfeathers (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm sorry you're not happy with the fish you've gotten. Bettas are aggressive by nature, and the ones that we breed come form long lines of fish that were bred to be as aggressive as possible, used for fighting spot. They are in general not going to do well with other of their own kind. I don't think however this means that they 'deserve' to be put into tiny little cups for their whole lives. Humans, as a whole, are the ones who made them so madly aggressive via breeding.

Perhaps at the end of this all, even if you're returning your girls, you could pick one and just have a happy fish in a nice environment with some other fish that it would get along with.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I don't know if you were being sarcastic with your last answer or not, but I don't understand why you weren't more prepared for your sorority not to work out. Half the posts on here with people who have just set up a sorority on whim and thrown in a bunch of adult, unrelated female end up in disaster. 

It's not something that is going to run smoothly from day one, and people who are familiar with bettas understand it might *never *work. That's why you should have the facilities to separate females if the fighting doesn't resolve itself. 

That's part of the responsibility of pet ownership. It's cruel to just take them back because of something that is an intrinsic part of their nature. It's like dumping a cat at the pound because it ate your pet bird :blueworry:


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

RCinAL said:


> Bettas are not for me. These are going back into the tiny cups where they belong. They will be nursed back to full health as quickly as possible and then returned to the store. I will simply "donate" them back and consider this an education.
> 
> These fish simply hate each other on a level we humans can't comprehend. I wouldn't risk trying it again even with a pair of newborn female conjoined-at-the-head identical twins in an olympic-sized swimming pool.
> 
> Ralph


You obviously are not a patient fish keeper and as such sorority tanks are not for you. :lol: Here is a good informative article on female betta's....

http://www.better-bettas.com/a/female-betta-fish.shtml


----------



## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I will never again feel sorry for them. They almost don't deserve anything better. 

*Well thats kind of harsh... but I suppose your just upset it didnt work out. Patience is needed with this kind of thing, and some sororities do work out.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

I _am_ frustrated. This has been my biggest failure in almost 40 years of fish keeping. I am also a realist. And the reality here is that 90% of all Betta Splendens will spend their entire lives in a cup. I used to take offense to it and even felt sorry for the fish, but not any more. The fish themselves dictate this practice and I was just forced (reality slapped) to accept the fact, that's all. 

I am a life-long _aquarist_, and keeping Bettas just doesn't fit neatly under this title. Keeping Bettas is actually a hobby of it's own, or at best it is a highly specialized _niche_ in the aquarium hobby. And it isn't for everyone, me included.

Thanks, everyone, for all the advice and comments, but I didn't do this to have my own private Armageddon. I respectfully admit defeat before any fish dies and will avoid keeping any more Betta Splendens. I enjoy watching fish co-exist and react to each other in mostly positive ways, not tear each other limb from limb.

Hope to communicate with some of you again under other headings on threads where I can relate some of my many _successes_. 

Ralph


----------



## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

Some fish just can't have tank mates. It doesn't make them a fish who deserves a tiny cup. I just means they have special needs. I have 4 males in 4 planted tanks, 5 gallons, and one 10. They're beautiful fish in beautiful tanks. 

They're obviously not the fish for you. All the information on aggression is out there and it's a reputation that's deserved. But a life in a cup? No. That's not deserved. They are solitary fish and they need their own tank. A tank, like you'd give any living creature. Not a dixie cup. That just sounds like sour grapes to me.

I realize you're maybe a little bitter towards bettas because it didn't succeed. Honestly, they're smart, engaging, and lively predators. That's why we love them. I wish you luck with whatever your next project is.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

vaygirl said:


> Some fish just can't have tank mates. It doesn't make them a fish who deserves a tiny cup. I just means they have special needs. I have 4 males in 4 planted tanks, 5 gallons, and one 10. They're beautiful fish in beautiful tanks.
> 
> They're obviously not the fish for you. All the information on aggression is out there and it's a reputation that's deserved. But a life in a cup? No. That's not deserved. They are solitary fish and they need their own tank. A tank, like you'd give any living creature. Not a dixie cup. That just sounds like sour grapes to me.
> 
> I realize you're maybe a little bitter towards bettas because it didn't succeed. Honestly, they're smart, engaging, and lively predators. That's why we love them. I wish you luck with whatever your next project is.


Thanks for the wishes, vaygirl.

I know Bettas are all the wonderful things you said of them. They are truly special pets for special owners. I just found out I am not special enough. 

Ralph


----------



## BettaHeart (Jan 2, 2011)

thats so sad:-(.

I have 6 girls in a 10gal with an apple snail. and decos and they do have their hissy-fits now and then but i expected that when i started the sorority in december. Its amazing watching them and i do have a laugh now and then when something looks odd, like the time Girlie was chasing Jess and just as Jess was rounding a plant she smacked heads with Sugar and the look all three had was hilarious. But anyways sorry you couldnt just breath and let the girls sort themselves out but as others have put it sororities are for patient keepers.
Good luck


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

RCinAL said:


> I _am_ frustrated. This has been my biggest failure in almost 40 years of fish keeping.Ralph


I don't see how you failed, :roll:. As a fish hobbyist all that's required of you is to let nature run its course and in this case allow the females to figure out their pecking order, nothing more nothing less.

Your example here is no different then a hobbyist calling himself a failure because he is not patient enough to allow a tank to cycle. :lol: :lol:


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

scootshoot said:


> I don't see how you failed, :roll:. As a fish hobbyist all that's required of you is to let nature run its course and in this case allow the females to figure out their pecking order, nothing more nothing less.
> 
> Your example here is no different then a hobbyist calling himself a failure because he is not patient enough to allow a tank to cycle. :lol: :lol:


I just don't have the stomach for all the bullying. I was holding up fine though till the red fish wound up nearly mutilated, then I lost my nerve. I wondered who would be next and wasn't willing to risk it. I may keep the red one since she will carry scars and be hard to find a new home for. If so she will inherit a place in the tank without other Bettas.

I swear, I have kept hundreds of the meanest cichlids over the years in community tanks with other, less robust species and have even had them spawn in those tanks many times. As long as tankmates respected their space they would usually be left alone and not molested - even wimpy ones. Not so with Bettas. They just hate each other.


----------



## peachesxo (Jan 20, 2011)

RCinAL said:


> Well, I am convinced all of you are right. There is a reason these fish languish in tiny cups and jars their entire lives - they obviously like it that way. I will never again feel sorry for them. They almost don't _deserve_ anything better.
> 
> Today one fish, a pearl with red fins, was chewed up pretty good and almost every one had minor fin damage. The colors are not great in any of them either. And yet, the bickering and bullying continues. These are 7 females in a 33 gallon community tank (same as a 55 but not as tall) with mostly Tetras and Glo-fish. There are plenty of plants and other places for them to hide and find comfort and solitude, but no, they _choose_ to seek each other out and be miserable instead.
> 
> ...


I don't like you, mostly for that first paragraph.


----------



## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

I never started a sorority because I don't have the nerve. I'd be too paranoid over every little thing. I'm happy with my singles. You could try that in the future. One betta in a tank, especially a male, can be very pretty. They want to interact with you instead of other fish. I know Cichlids can be the same way.

I even tried Tango (my avatar) in a 16 gallon with Corydoras and they were fine for a year and a half and then suddenly he was chasing them nonstop. It was like old man, get off my lawn syndrome. He's living on his own now and the Corys share with Endlers. It can go wrong at any point. I lost my will to take chances because of it.


----------



## Alex09 (Aug 9, 2010)

vaygirl said:


> I never started a sorority because I don't have the nerve. I'd be too paranoid over every little thing. I'm happy with my singles. You could try that in the future. One betta in a tank, especially a male, can be very pretty. They want to interact with you instead of other fish. I know Cichlids can be the same way.
> 
> I even tried Tango (my avatar) in a 16 gallon with Corydoras and they were fine for a year and a half and then suddenly he was chasing them nonstop. It was like old man, get off my lawn syndrome. He's living on his own now and the Corys share with Endlers. It can go wrong at any point. I lost my will to take chances because of it.


You have got me worried about my 10 gal community now lol. But the betta in there is female so... hopefully it will work out. I've never had the nerve to do a sorority tank either.


----------



## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

peachesxo said:


> I don't like you, mostly for that first paragraph.


 Peaches, easy. Everyone is entitled to their own stance on things; if you don't agree, then refrain from engaging in the conversation and use that energy to better the lives of the creatures you're sticking up for.
Telling a man you've never met you don't like him won't solve a thing, especially when it's been addressed several times.

This thread got really critical really fast. In the worst way.


----------



## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

*I can't believe this*

_"There is a reason these fish languish in tiny cups and jars their entire lives - they obviously like it that way"_

Um no, the reason is that many people just don't care and want to make money, or are too lazy to bother with adequate care. It does not mean they like it. The bettas are not choosing to live in tiny cups because they wan't to, HUMANS put them there. 


_" I will never again feel sorry for them_."

Why? Because they were doing something natural? How can you not feel sorry for these poor fish that are usually kept in horrid conditions? You yourself said you kept aggressive cichlids so you must understand that aggression and hunting/killing instincts are many times present in animals, no matter how domesticated they are. The way the bettas act is how they survive, not for our entertainment or pleasure.

"They almost don't deserve anything better. "

I can't think of any other fish in the world that deserves better care right now. They are kept in tiny cups! 


"These are going back into the tiny cups where they belong."

They belong in a good home where they will get proper care. 


"These fish simply hate each other on a level we humans can't comprehend"

Yes, we can. Bettas fight to survive. What do we humans do? We murder and hurt each other, and MANY times not for survival, but for money, or in cold blood. Bettas are noble, intelligent creatures that deserve lots of swimming place and a cozy heater.




Hey guys, I am sorry if I rambled on, but I haven't gotten this mad in a looong time. This really irked me.


----------



## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

turtle10 said:


> _"There is a reason these fish languish in tiny cups and jars their entire lives - they obviously like it that way"_
> 
> Um no, the reason is that many people just don't care and want to make money, or are too lazy to bother with adequate care. It does not mean they like it. The bettas are not choosing to live in tiny cups because they wan't to, HUMANS put them there.
> 
> ...


I completely and whole-heartedly agree.


----------



## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

I wanted to cry when I read what he wrote 

I honestly couldn't believe a person could feel like that.


----------



## Alex09 (Aug 9, 2010)

What is this PETA? calm down... The OP is just (understandably) frustrated, give him a break...


----------



## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

Alex09 said:


> What is this PETA? calm down... The OP is just (understandably) frustrated, give him a break...


 Yeah.. He's obviously backed off, and I have a feeling might not come back(?) from this.
I dont agree with what he said at all, not in the slightest, but eesh.. :c


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

turtle10 said:


> _"There is a reason these fish languish in tiny cups and jars their entire lives - they obviously like it that way"_
> 
> Um no, the reason is that many people just don't care and want to make money, or are too lazy to bother with adequate care. It does not mean they like it. The bettas are not choosing to live in tiny cups because they wan't to, HUMANS put them there.
> 
> ...


Holy Cow Batman. Talk about perfection. Well put......:welldone:


----------



## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

Alex09 said:


> What is this PETA? calm down... The OP is just (understandably) frustrated, give him a break...


I am really sorry if I came across as PETA-like or harsh, it's just that these are living animals, so it is sort of serious to say comments like those. It really sends the wrong message when an experienced aquarist says such ignorant things. Bettas have it bad enough already and he was basically supporting that, I believe.


----------



## BettaHeart (Jan 2, 2011)

well said turtle10 i agree


----------



## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

I agree, too, but I think it's been addressed enoughish :c Let's not perpetuate his distain and anger, let's just let it die. :c


----------



## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

Alex09 said:


> What is this PETA? calm down... The OP is just (understandably) frustrated, give him a break...


lol, am sorry but self proclaimed 30+ year experienced Fish keepers who admits to owning Cichlid's (Kings of Quarreling amongst themselves) don't get visibly shaken & quit altogether watching a flock of betta females in a tank for 2 days, :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

PewPewPew said:


> Yeah.. He's obviously backed off, and I have a feeling might not come back(?) from this.
> I dont agree with what he said at all, not in the slightest, but eesh.. :c


Thanks for disagreeing with dignity and compassion, PewPewPew.

Actually, I've just been busy. I did want to let this thread die, but after finding the latest string of hate-laced responses, I guess now I have to explain myself again. 

I have very little experience with "game" animals. Research on this forum and others suggested the chances were good that 7 females would co-exist under the conditions I painstakingly administered. I really thought I wanted to keep some of these beautiful fish and had every reason to believe if anyone had succeeded, I would too being armed with 38 years of experience in keeping tropical fish. When it didn't happen, I became frustrated and said some regretful things. I think I already explained this and probably even asked for forgiveness. 

I admitted my mistakes here and am now making a sincere, humane attempt to do what is best for the fish. The red one is in the tank alone and doing fine. I will keep her. The others are back in their cups. I don't like it either, but don't see another way to keep them from killing each other till they can be fattened up, healed, returned, and resold. They were in cups when I bought them, and in a week or 2 someone else will hopefully take them home in a cup and release them into their own private tank. That is the best I can do. It is not like I am flushing them down the toilet or shipping them to Michael Vick. 

Everyone now knows of my fantastic failure. Like I said before, I hope to communicate with some of you on other forums where I can cordially share some of my many triumphs.

Ralph

And BTW... To answer the person who made the related remarks - Cichlids compare to Bettas like Domineckers compare to Gamecocks. One settles for dominance over their_ living_ rivals. The other settles for nothing less than _dead_ rivals. I now understand this completely and this concludes my desire to keep _any_ game animals, Bettas included. We live and learn.


----------



## sjones (Apr 28, 2010)

turtle10 said:


> _"There is a reason these fish languish in tiny cups and jars their entire lives - they obviously like it that way"_
> 
> Um no, the reason is that many people just don't care and want to make money, or are too lazy to bother with adequate care. It does not mean they like it. The bettas are not choosing to live in tiny cups because they wan't to, HUMANS put them there.
> 
> ...


This posting is awesome and has heart, don't beat yourself up for standing up for how you believe we should treat animals! And PETA is awesome, if it weren't for them there would not be many of the changes towards humane care of animals.


----------



## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks sjones 

And RCinAL, I don't think people had a problem with you wanting to return them. I myself have returned mollies back once before. Also, please don't consider it a failure. The bettas did something natural, which was fight, and unfortunately it look a life, which wasn't your fault. It is also not a failure that you want to return them. What people did have a problem with were your harsh comments. This is first and foremost a Betta Fish forum, and though I am not a moderator or administrator, I do believe that means showing respect for bettas and the betta owners on here. Bettas are not for everyone, and that is perfectly okay. What is not okay is posting mean and disrespectful comments about bettas on a betta forum.

I do apologize if I come across overly critical, I just have a strong belief of at least having some respect for all animals, even if I don't like them.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

turtle10 said:


> Thanks sjones
> 
> And RCinAL, I don't think people had a problem with you wanting to return them. I myself have returned mollies back once before. Also, please don't consider it a failure. The bettas did something natural, which was fight, and unfortunately it look a life, which wasn't your fault. It is also not a failure that you want to return them. What people did have a problem with were your harsh comments. This is first and foremost a Betta Fish forum, and though I am not a moderator or administrator, I do believe that means showing respect for bettas and the betta owners on here. Bettas are not for everyone, and that is perfectly okay. What is not okay is posting mean and disrespectful comments about bettas on a betta forum.
> 
> I do apologize if I come across overly critical, I just have a strong belief of at least having some respect for all animals, even if I don't like them.


Thanks. I do love fish of all kinds and work hard to provide them with outstanding conditions. I mowed yards and worked all summer when I was 12 years old and bought my first 29 gallon set up. My parents thought I was crazy. Then, when my fish started spawning and I was raising babies by the hundred, they couldn't stay away from the aquarium. I have kept fish ever since. This particular experience just left me flattened and angry.


----------



## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

As all people are different, so are all fish. That is why it great that there are so many types of fish, so everyone can have some that they like and can bond/connect with. It is almost like cats and dogs, some people are just betta people and some are just (insert fish name here lol) people.


----------



## shinybetta (Jul 3, 2010)

Generally, sororities end in failure. Don't feel bad, I too have quit. Nothing against sorority keepers, but after mine failed I realized that they will have a better life on their own, unless in a large tank. If kept as babies possibly, but still, it is like living your entire life in a house bickering with your sisters. You will be stressed and not as happy.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

shinybetta said:


> Generally, sororities end in failure. Don't feel bad, I too have quit. Nothing against sorority keepers, but after mine failed I realized that they will have a better life on their own, unless in a large tank. If kept as babies possibly, but still, it is like living your entire life in a house bickering with your sisters. You will be stressed and not as happy.


I have no doubt others, by whatever successful formula they have discovered - large numbers, related fish, starting with babies, etc - are keeping healthy, contented, sorority tanks and I commend them whole-heartedly. It does take an extra ordinary effort though and I found I didn't have all the same "qualities" some of the better, more experienced Betta people obviously enjoy.

I went into this feeling good about the endeavor, thinking I was once again about to improve the living conditions of a bunch of fish that were in need of rescue from a bad situation (the store). When I failed, which I almost never do, the immediate, knee-jerk response was to blame the fish. Being as I was reporting on the situation in real time, something I am relatively new at doing, I ran to the computer to air out my frustrations in the heat of the moment without first thinking it through. This was a mistake and I said some things I shouldn't have. And of course, once something is on the web, you can't take it back. All I can do now is take the hate, ask for forgiveness, and move on. 

Bettas are wonderful pets. I have kept at least 5 males till they died of natural causes at ripe old ages and thoroughly enjoyed them. I have one now in his own 5 gallon heated and filtered tank. I always thought I would get around to breeding some and raising the babies. This experiment, if it had been successful, would have eventually lead to that end. 

I am not against Bettas. I am just unhappy about having to face the truth that one is all I will ever be able to care for at a time. You see, I have a thing about keeping all my fish in heated, filtered tanks. And I just don't have the space to provide this to more than a couple of solitary Bettas. Though I would love to keep dozens, I will not resort to bowls and vases.

Ralph


----------



## sjones (Apr 28, 2010)

it's called fun with divided tanks! Arg! I just failed at a divided ten gallon, not going as I had planned...


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Wow, what a thread! RCinCal, I understand your frustration. Because of that frustration, you said some things you didn't really mean. We've ALL done that. IMO, bettas aren't for everyone. Some people don't want just one fish in a tank. They would rather have a tank full of pretty fish swimming around happily. Bettas are solitary fish and do best on their own, IMO. Some can handle tankmates and some can't.


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

*Update*

My computer has been messed up. :evil: I just got back online and wanted to provide an update though I know it is kinda late.

The red female that was so beaten up stayed in my community tank and is doing great. She is almost completely healed and is perfectly content and happy. I thought there would be scarring, but now I am not sure of it. She will live out her life here in some great conditions. 

The other females were nursed back to complete health in a matter of days and were returned to the store where all have found new homes. 

As for the "experiment" - I know others are having success with Betta sororities through various means, and I tip my hat to them, but I just don't have the stomach for it. As much as I wanted to keep multiple Bettas, my heart is with community tanks and I will now stick with different species, though I probably will always keep one or two Bettas as conditions permit.


----------



## Cravenne (Dec 20, 2010)

RC..I think you should have gotten a pat on the back for realizing it wasn't for you, healing any wounds that were present and returning the fish so they can perhaps have better homes.

IMO...it's horrible that you were pounced on. You shared your experiences here for others to read and learn from. You are entitled to your opinions and handled the situation the best way you knew how. Anyone pondering the idea of a sorority will hopefully read this and take note that you are an experienced fishkeeper who, with all the aquatic knowledge 38 years brings you, were unable to provide a sorority situation because...well..IMO....they are a bad idea. 

So many posts here are about female bettas in need of treatment because they fought and were injured.....possibly dead because those particular fishkeepers wanted to toss them all into a tank together. Most know they shouldn't be kept together, that they prefer being alone and yet so many decide to 'rescue' them from their 'tiny cups', toss them into a tank together and watch day after day as they fight eachother to death.

If someone can start a thread crying about losing one of their females who was attacked by another(after being the one to toss them in a tank together), I see no reason you shouldn't be PEACEFULLY allowed to post your feelings about ending the violence quickly. 

So..

In conclusion....

I'm sorry it didn't work out as you had hoped. Live and learn and most importantly, someone else might learn. AND..I'm offering an apology for any harsh words you received. As someone who lurks around here daily, it was embarassing to read. 

Sidenote--I keep cichlids as well! One of my labs actually spit out the babies this time. 2 survived and are hiding sneakily....it's so amazing to watch that process. I have two more females holding as well..they are like rabbits!


----------



## RCinAL (Nov 14, 2010)

Cravenne said:


> RC..I think you should have gotten a pat on the back for realizing it wasn't for you, healing any wounds that were present and returning the fish so they can perhaps have better homes.
> 
> IMO...it's horrible that you were pounced on. You shared your experiences here for others to read and learn from. You are entitled to your opinions and handled the situation the best way you knew how. Anyone pondering the idea of a sorority will hopefully read this and take note that you are an experienced fishkeeper who, with all the aquatic knowledge 38 years brings you, were unable to provide a sorority situation because...well..IMO....they are a bad idea.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words, and cichlids _are_ so much fun. Glad you too are enjoying the experience of keeping them. I accept full responsibility for my negative comments. I can take some well deserved criticism. I have no hard feelings for anyone who commented. 

Cheers,

Ralph


----------

