# Cycling Help



## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

First real thread, yay!

Okay so about a month ago I set up a new tank (August 22 to be precise), the 6.6 gallon bookshelf tank from Petco. Used the filter that came with it, ViaAqua heater. 
I wanted to do a fishless cycle and have been using fish food. Gets "fed" 1-2 times daily, about 5 pellets each.

I have yet to get an ammonia reading, or any reading for that matter. I haven't been testing every day, but every 3-4 or so and have yet to see anything change. Am I doing something wrong? I'd really like to get Powerball moved out of the Kritter Keeper and in to his new tank.

Oh, and I noticed that the heater and suction cup thermometer have this weird white, wispy stuff hanging off them. What could it be?
I also have to add water about once a week, it seems to evaporate really fast here.

Thanks for any advise you can give!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Pet stores sell aquarium cycling supplies like the live bacteria which died and is ammonia that should help or just order bottled ammonia for aquariums.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

You might want to add more pellets. Maybe add a 3rd "feeding" of 5 more pellets. You can also use a piece of raw shrimp but I hear that it can get pretty nasty smelling. I have no idea what the white stuff is. Maybe someone else can answer.


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## wombatgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

I'd second the reccomendation to add more food, or maybe to start adding a little ammonia (make sure it's pure ammonia before adding it). I'm working on a fishless cycle of a 5 gallon myself, but I'm sort of cheating - I added a mystery snail (who poops up a storm) and a few of my plants decided they didn't like the tank, and started to do brown and icky. So my ammonia was definitely up there, and now I'm just waiting through the nitrite part. But it feels like it's taking forever.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

I'll definitely start feeding it more then  I was worried about doing too much, can you tell this is my first tank? I really want to add live plants, but eek, scary!

I would have tossed a shimp in there, but alas, I ate the rest of them for dinner last week.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

That white wispy stuff sounds like mold which formed on your pellets, then spread around your tank on the current. Could this be right?

This is why many keepers do not recommend fishfood or shrimp as an ammonia source. If you absolutely cannot get "pure" ammonia (from ACE hardware or from Dr Tim's online), at least crush your pellets to try to prevent mold. Both fishfood and rotting shrimp/fish can be a smelly mess.

@wombatgirl. Using a snail to create ammonia is similar to using cycle fish. Not very nice for the snail. How many ppm is he generating?


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Hallyx said:


> That white wispy stuff sounds like mold which formed on your pellets, then spread around your tank on the current. Could this be right?


Hmm possibly. I haven't been crushing the pellets and the heater is right where the current flows towards (i hope that makes sense)
It's not anywhere else in the tank.

I don't have an Ace Hardware near me, just Lowes and Walmart and a small local hardware store. At this point, I think it would be easiest to go with straight ammonia. (If you shake it and it bubbles, it's not pure right?)


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## wombatgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

@Hallyx - don't worry. I'm making sure to change the water whenever it gets over safe limits in ammonia or nitrates (or is it nitrites - whichever is first). I'm not trying to hurt the snail, and he seems to be thriving. They need good water, just like fish, but they are hardier.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

whiskandbowl said:


> At this point, I think it would be easiest to go with straight ammonia. (If you shake it and it bubbles, it's not pure right?)


Absolutely correct.

Lowes and Walmart near me don't have it.

After having used shrimp, myself, and having heard the fishfood horror stories on here, I'm more adamant than ever in suggesting "pure" ammonia as an ammonia source for cycling.

@Wombatgilrl

I meant no criticism. Snails are super tough in my experience, living and reproducing in fishless cycle environments. Just making sure you had it covered ;-}


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Eeep...horror stories? Must have missed them when I was reading about cycling. Care to elaborate? I don't want to hurt my fishes.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

whiskandbowl said:


> Eeep...horror stories? Must have missed them when I was reading about cycling. Care to elaborate? I don't want to hurt my fishes.


Nothing dangerous. You can breath...LoL But you rarely hear about this stuff in a cycling how-to article.

Rotting fishfood or shrimp/fish can get Saprolegnia mold. It's not dangerous but it's not wholesome and its not easy to clean out once established. Some people think it causes Columnaris because it has a similar appearance. This is unsupported and not true. But it does get into your filter and onto your plants and decor.

Then there's the smell. Because the dose cannot be controlled, often the tank gets overdosed---the lag from decomposition makes this easy to do. You want the tank open so that bacteria can get in, but sometimes the smell makes that impracticable.

Sometimes the overdosing will stall the cycle. The too-high ammonia can kill the bacteria. 

The cloudy bacterial bloom which sometimes accompanies a cycle, while harmless, is unsightly and can be worrisome if it persists.

All things being equal, if you want to perform a fishless cycle, I consider it worth the effort to get "pure" ammonia that does NOT foam-up when shaken.


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## wombatgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Here's another question for you whiskandbowl - do you have a local pet store? If you trust their tanks, they may give you some gravel which should be loaded with the right kind of bacteria. You can put it in your tank and help it get going. You can also put it in a nylon if you don't want that color of gravel. (Or so I understand.)


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

I actually work at a petstore. I've never brought any gravel home because I'm wary of spreading anything (not that the tanks are disgusting or diseased) I'm just cautious.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Just an update: FINALLY have an ammonia reading. *dances around* I feel like I've been waiting forever. I actually stopped testing because I was getting so discouraged.
I've been crushing the food pellets instead of just dropping them in. I haven't had time to track down any pure ammonia between school and work, though, plus payday isn't until Friday. 
Still have some weird algae/mold on the thermometer and heater, should I scrub it off?

So happy things are progressing somewhat!


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Okay, asking for help again. My Nitr*i*tres have been really high for at least the past week and a half. Nitr*a*tres have been the lowest reading to nonexistent. Is this normal? I got the sense that once Nitrites showed up, the rest happened pretty quickly.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

That's typical of a stalled cycle. Change your water down to <1.0ppm nitrite and see what happens to your nitrate. 

Tell us how it goes. It would be helpful if you'd post your readings.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Will do (probably tonight or tomorrow because I have family events)! Thank you :-D


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

do you have carbon in the filter?


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

I just have the pads that came with the filter. It's the one that comes with the Petco bookshelf tank


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

The carbon probably sucked away the ammonia  and just worn itself out recently XD


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

whiskandbowl said:


> Okay, asking for help again. My Nitr*i*tres have been really high for at least the past week and a half. Nitr*a*tres have been the lowest reading to nonexistent. Is this normal? I got the sense that once Nitrites showed up, the rest happened pretty quickly.


The nitrIte phase can actually be the longest phase, 2-3 wks. My nitrItes showed up about week 6 on my 10g fish IN cycle & lasted 2 weeks & then were just gone one day.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

What do you mean "worn itself out"? Sorry for all the newb questions but this is my first ever cycling experience


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

the folter cartridges usually have activated carbon in them. this absorbs ammonia and other stuff...

when it cant absorb anymore, it doesnt work any more. but in a biological filtration (cycling) carbon is uneeded....


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Personally I wouldn't worry about the carbon as the BB, when its built up, should process the ammonia. A lot of experienced aquarists don't even use carbon in their filters so its not a necessity.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

I dont think she's worried about it, just an explanation for the mystery ammonia disappearance


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Carbon does help to eliminate DOCs (dissolved organic carbon) and other impurities that the filter misses. In our low-bioload Betta setups, we counter these by a weekly 50% water change.

in my opinion, and that of many experienced keepers around here, carbon is expensive and irrelevant.

This should also be your _last_ cycling experience. From now on, when you start up a new tank, you'll have live nitrifying bacteria to kick-start your new cycle.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks guys. 

So much info to take in! A lot of what I'm experiencing isn't mentioned in the stickies, so your help is really appreciated.

I didn't know that about carbon, so it's good to know. I'm not worried I guess, but that brings on another question? How do you know when to replace the filter cartridge? I know it can be swished in old tank water, and when putting in a new cart. to let them run side by side for a while, but how often to replace them?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

...never if you can help it XD
the things is your filter cartridge holds the majority of the beneficial bacteria they is keeping your tank in cycle. you dont ever want to throw them out and risk restarting your cycle again....


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Don't they wear out ever?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

yes they do  when that happens you put in new filter media with the old...and transfer the bacteria.

I do recommend you lookingfor some filter floss or sponge and stuffing as much as you can in the filter. those will probably never break apart.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Hallyx said:


> That's typical of a stalled cycle. Change your water down to <1.0ppm nitrite and see what happens to your nitrate.
> 
> Tell us how it goes. It would be helpful if you'd post your readings.


Here we go! Tested the water a got a really high reading 5.0ppm+. Did a 25% water change which knocked it down to 1-2ppm. Still looked dark purple so I did another change....about 50% and now we are at 0.25ppm on the dot.
Will post ammonia and nitrate in a moment...used up all my test tubes


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Lol! I sold my test kit recently XD I never used it since it was so much trouble to clean (yes i'm that lazy somtimes) and I was using the chart to swat mosquitoes!


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

It is a pain sometimes. The nitrite solution tends to stain.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Ammonia is at 0.25ppm
Nitrites are at 0.25ppm
Nitrates are at 0ppm


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

I've never cycled a tank  but it seems like your cycle is well on its way. wait for Professor Hallyx to come along to give you the details....


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

whiskandbowl said:


> Ammonia is at 0.25ppm
> Nitrites are at 0.25ppm
> Nitrates are at 0ppm


You're at a nice neutral point. Now it's time for patient observation. You want to see your ammonia go down followed by nitrite and a rise in nitrate. You know this. I'm just putting it down for the lurkers.

Test once a day and write it down. Come back here when something changes and let us know. 

Isn't it nice to know you'll never have to do this again?


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Update for today

Ammonia is at 0.25ppm
Nitrite is at 0.5-1ppm (hard to tell, but definitely purple instead of the blue I got at 0.25)
Nitrate is at 0ppm

FWIW, I tested Nitrites the morning after the water change and got the same results as above so it seems to be holding steady.

Will post an update in a few days


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

make sure you shake those nitrate bottle till your arm falls off


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Aokashi is right. But then again an accurate reading for nitrate is not critical.

To make life easier on yourself: carefully pull out the dropper part of the #2 nitrate bottle and drop in a pea-sized bead or pebble. Coverts you bottle to a "rattle-can," making it easier to mix it thoroughly.


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## indicat (Jul 2, 2012)

*Where am I in my cycle?*

I am currently cycling a 55 g with pure ammonia, I'm on week three (haven't seen a Nitrite spike yet), but I have seen increased levels of Nitrates. It's only been 3 weeks, so I don't expect it to be fully cycled (or has it even really started?). 

I used StressZyme to hopefully get a little start, everything else has been deep cleaned or is new (had a bad bacterial infection). 

I use the API master test kit and got the following levels:

pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 2 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm

Thanks


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

it seems like ur done. but overdosing on ammonia. 
do you have a log? that will help more...


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## indicat (Jul 2, 2012)

I haven't been keeping a log, but from memory those levels have been pretty consistent this week. The tank is at a school and I will be gone all weekend, so maybe the ammonia will get processed?


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

*Nitrates, where RU?*

Tested today and yesterday, I thought it was a fluke or I mistested.

Ammonia 0.0ppm
Nitrite 0.0ppm
Nitrate 0.0ppm

Got these same results yesterday morning, last night, and this morning. Made sure to shake the nitrate bottle really, really well. 

What's happened?:-?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

do you have algae in the tank?


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Nope. Crystal clear.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Plants...? :O


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Silk ones


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

LOlolol no idea  pm hallyx


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Okay so I tested again this morning. The nitrate test looked like it was reading 0.0ppm to me, but my BF insists it's at 5.0ppm (the first level after 0) I'll have to post a pic to see what you guys think.

It seems like my cycle has stalled again. I'm going to pick up some Safe Start and filter floss to see if I can jump start it again and get the good bacteria to stick around. 

Will keep you all updated. LOL I should have called this thread "Cycling Problems? It's probably happened to me!"


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Nitrate shouldn't even be showing at all in the absence of ammonia followed by nitrite.

A tank sometimes cycles even when the keeper doesn't want it too. Some seem to have trouble. Just guessing, but it may have something to do with the amount and type of nitrifying bacteria present in the air. I just heard of someone who tried starting their cycle using garden dirt, because a type of bacteria related to nitrosomonas is found in soil. But so are a lot of other not-so-good bacteria. I don't know the outcome.

OK, I just re-read this thread. You have a fish waiting on this tank....since late August (?) Go ahead and set him up in the tank. Use Prime or Amquel to keep the ammonia converted to ammonium. Keep up with your water changes to keep the ammonia down below 0.25ppm. 

No reason he should have to put up with inferior accommodations, even though you're doing the right thing but having trouble. Read OldFishLady's article on fish-in cycling in the "Bowls and Habitats" section.

I forgot to ask you about your pH and hardness (GH and KH). If your water is very soft with low pH, the bacteria will have a harder time reproducing.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Just added the Safe Start (literally 20 minutes ago) and stuffed some filter floss into the filter. 

Tank has been up since August, but didn't get ammonia readings until Sept I think  It's been so long. My parents keep teasing me about having a tank with no fish. (They don't understand the concept of cycling)

Maybe my bacteria in the air is bad, that would explain why my sourdough bread never worked out 

Powerball is doing okay. He's in a 2gal critter keeper with silk plants, a floating betta log, and Elite heater set at 80*. Water changes every other day. He's pretty spoiled for being in a small space.
I've only tested pH once, don't remember what it is. I'll test it right now. I'm pretty sure we have hard water, since scum develops in the sink here pretty easily.

I'd add Powerball right now but I can't get ahold of Prime until Thursday. I know we have other ammonia neutralizing products at work, do these work as well? I think they are not conditioners, they are solely for ammonia.

Will post an update with the big 3, and pH. I don't think I have the means to test hardness (I have the API master kit)


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I hope I'm not confusing you with some of this contradictory advice. 

My reading indicates that Safestart and Dr Tim's raise the ammonia beyond what we consider acceptable here. Their instructions lead me to think they are better for fishless cycling. They seem to think an ammonia reading over 0.5ppm is acceptable. 

I'm not sure what to say at this point, Whisk. If Poweball is still in the KK, I'd give the Safestart a few days to see what it does to your ammonia. And...
---put some Safestart in your filter
---max aeration 
---run your temp up to ~85*
---filter on high
---dark tank

If Powerball is already in residence, keep a close eye on the readings. Change water 50% before it gets to 0.25ppm. Run an airstone or sponge filter for max aeration/oxygenation.

Now that you're totally confused, get back to us and tell us what you did.

I know that Prime and Amquel convert ammonia to ammonium, which is used by your bacteria. There are other products that just neutralize ammonia (whatever that means). That's good for your fish, but does nothing to help you build a bacteria colony.

If you have hard water, chances are your pH is quite high. This is good for growing nitrifying bacteria.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Hallyx said:


> I hope I'm not confusing you with some of this contradictory advice.


Not at all. Keep calm and carry on has been my motto lately



> My reading indicates that Safestart and Dr Tim's raise the ammonia beyond what we consider acceptable here. Their instructions lead me to think they are better for fishless cycling. They seem to think an ammonia reading over 0.5ppm is acceptable.


Personally I don't like to see fish in ammonia over 0.25, and if I find a reading indicating these levels, I do a water change. 



> I'm not sure what to say at this point, Whisk. If Poweball is still in the KK, I'd give the Safestart a few days to see what it does to your ammonia. And...
> ---put some Safestart in your filter
> ---max aeration
> ---run your temp up to ~85*
> ...


That's my gameplan right here



> Run an airstone or sponge filter for max aeration/oxygenation.


I don't have one. Should I get one? If so, I would love recommendations. We carry Whisper air pumps, that's all I remember right now! It's 8 in the morning and I don't do mornings HAHA



> I know that Prime and Amquel convert ammonia to ammonium, which is used by your bacteria. There are other products that just neutralize ammonia (whatever that means). That's good for your fish, but does nothing to help you build a bacteria colony.


Good to know



> If you have hard water, chances are your pH is quite high. This is good for growing nitrifying bacteria.


I tested pH last night. Same reading in the tank, and out of the tap- around 7.2 (those blues are hard to differentiate!)

Just for fun I tested the levels last night about 2 hours after adding the Safe Start. 
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20ppm

This morning the levels are:
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0.0ppm
Nitrate: Around 30ppm

One last question! (for now;-)) Should I worry about any of the levels getting high and do a water change, or should I let them level out on their own, then do one big change before I put the fish in?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Whew..glad you're a sensible gal. 

Hard to believe that much nitrate without going through the ammonia/nitrite conversion but...whatever. If the nitrate gets to ~40ppm do a 50%. Too much nitrate can slow your cycle (and we can't have that, can we?)

You don't need an airstone if your filter splashes. That improves the gas exchange, aerating the water and feeding your bacteria.

For fishless, keep the ammonia and nitrite <5ppm and the nitrate <40ppm. The custom is to let it ride until it zeroes the ammonia and nitrite, then one big pwc and you're ready to stock...always monitoring your parameters, of course.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

whiskandbowl said:


> I tested pH last night. Same reading in the tank, and out of the tap- around 7.2 (those blues are hard to differentiate!)


You're right on the overlap between high-range and low-range. Try the high-range pH test and see what you get.


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## whiskandbowl (Aug 21, 2012)

Will do....probably tomorrow as I'm exhausted. Between school and work, no time! Sigh

I was surprised about the nitrates too. But I swear, there was no mistaking that shade of orange.


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