# How to have a healthy, happier betta?



## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Hi! I've been stalking your site for weeks now, you guys are so helpful! I'm Lefi and I've had bettas most of my life though I'm only starting to learn how to propely care for them. My first lived in a vase to the ripe age of 6 and I'm doing my best to make sure my newest lives just as long but a far better life. I got Chiisana (Chi for short) a few months ago. I wasn't even aware there were different breeds (its been years since I had one) and was delighted to get a HalfMoon Male. However, since getting him, I seem to continually running into problems and I'm hoping to get some advice. I've been steadily obtaining more and more essentials as needed but here's my current set up:

2.5 hooded minibow aquarium
CFL 13 watt spiral bulb
Filter with Fluval foam filter used to baffle the flow on intake and output *veeery gentle*
One smooth pagoda decoration (no rough edges), three silk plants, one Amazon Compacta, terracota pot hide

I recently added a baby albino bristle nose pleco on Thursday (for algae) who will be moved to a larger tank I intend to set up within a few months. No other tankmates.

I use Aqueon water conditioner and recently use Api's CO2 for the amazon compacta.
I do 25-50% water changes weekly.
I feed 2 betta pellets every morning and night, supplementing that with freeze dried bloodworms 1-3 times a week.

Water Parameters
Temp: I try to keep it at 80. (The past few days we hit our first cold snap and the temps been between 76 and 78 and fell to 74 a couple times, I'm getting a temporary heater tomorrow, to be replaced with a better model soon)
I don't have my own testing kit yet (did get hanging meters which don't really work well) but Petsmart tested my water on the 26th, before a 75% water change.
Ammonia: .25 
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20
pH: 8.1
Akalinity: 200
Hardness: 300

History of diseases:
I have myself a tailbiter. After flipping out a few weeks in over tail rot, I've discovered he tends to bite his tail when stressed. The first time it turned into tailrot and I treated it with 100% daily water changes and salt for a week. It healed up. I added the amazon compacta and he loved it. His tail was growing back fabulously. I ended up with a ton of algae due to overfeeding the plant and too much light. I did a 75% water change and added my pleco Albus Dumbledore (Alby). When I have to do a large water change that involved placing him in his cup, he tends to bite his tail. I didn't think much of the chunk he took out. Then his dorsal fin was shredded. I couldn't figure that one out but my dad ended up in the hospital and I didn't have time to worry over it too much. Tonight I found what looked like grains of salt. Looks like my boy has ick! I did a 25% water change, raised the temp to 86 temporarily and added salt.

Since I just seem to be having one problem after another, what can I do? 
I'm getting a heater tomorrow. I'm *trying* to cycle my tank, won't 100% water changes ruin the cycle? I also want to get some java moss to add to the tank, though I think I'll wait until after the ick goes away. I read that heating the tank to 86 for a short period will help kill it along with salt. Since I'm doing salt, do I need to do 100% water changes and start my cycle over again? How often should I be doing the salt to rid of ick? I only just noticed 8 tiny white spots this evening.

It all comes down to; What can I improve to help my guy *stay* healthy?


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## CoolishPrune3 (Sep 4, 2013)

"Keep your filthy hands out of the tank!" lol I'm just kidding. That sounds like something my mother would say.

In all seriousness, I think you're doing great. It's hard to say exactly what causes 99% of the problems in the world, so whatever you are doing must be working. I for one, like to keep my tank simple, as far as chemicals go. I only prefer to add things I really need to. For example; Water Conditioner and Plant Food is all I am adding to my tank right now. Of course, you could always do a fish-in cycle or a whole bunch of plants. There are always things you can add to a tank. You just have to decide what, when, why, how much, etc... Keep in mind though.. adding more to the equation, only spells disaster!

I hope I didn't scare you too much


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Haha I don't scare that easy! With some help from another friend, the current game plan is 60% water changes which will allow me to leave him in the tank. He has problems with stress when I take him out for water changes so I try not to unless I have to otherwise he tailbites. That being said, that means that the one dose of salt I have in there will be all I'm adding to it for a while, hopefully it'll work like a preventative against finrot! I came home and his tail was shredded even worse than before I left. Why can't I ever have the -easy- animals? Seriously, there are bettas who aren't so much work haha. [The work doesn't really bother me, I mean I have a cat who's still being bottle fed at age 3 due to cleft palate, it just means that it's harder to make him happy and that part does bother me]
I am trying to do the fish-in cycle. I didn't know about cycling when I got him. [Actually he lived in a 1gal for the first couple days before I went back and got the bigger tank and I've been steadily upgrading it, now I want a 10gal] I also am having fun with this planted tank thing too, even if my plant is also a pain in the rear at times. I plan to heavily plant my 10gal when I set it up and I'm hoping that this tank will be cycled by then so that I can use the bacteria to help jump start the 10gal. I want to get some javamoss for Chi's tank but I was advised by a friend to wait until I get rid of the ich which I think is also a very wise idea.
I really just want to get him healthy and get his fins to a healthy state. The new growth is now shredded -again- when it was fine maybe four hours ago.


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## CoolishPrune3 (Sep 4, 2013)

Sounds like you've got a game plan. Which is better than most can say. If you happen to still be on the forums around tax time, I have a 30 gallon that I am going to heavily plant and cycle, as well. I want to turn it into a sorority tank. However, I have a lot of work to do and things to buy before this will be feasible.
. . maybe we could compare notes . .


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Oh I'm sure I will be! I looked and I adopted him in the first week of June. I've been stalking the forums before I even brought him home! Actually it was this site that convinced me to get him the bigger tank the next day.


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## CoolishPrune3 (Sep 4, 2013)

Welcome to the Forum!

I've always wanted to say that. 

Anywho, I was re-reading your original post. It's about the plecostomus. I think he might be stressed with his tank mate. Thus, tail biting.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Thank you! And yeah, poor guy seems to stress easy. I splurged and bought an API master test kit and a heater (of course) plus some Hikari algae wafers for my pleco. They seem to be doing well together, I think it was more the shock of him being new and the cold temps that have caused my problems. I still can't help to feel like I'm missing something with his fins.


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## CoolishPrune3 (Sep 4, 2013)

You could always try doing a mild AQ salt treatment for a week. 1tsp/gal. 50% wc ever 2 days.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Your last betta lived for 6 years in a vase. I have 5 years old and my 4 years old just died a few wks ago. And your 6 years old lived without a filter. So why do you want to have a filter now. For 2.5 gall i would recommend not to cycle , and don't need a filter. 
Ich is contagious . If you share anything between 2 bettas ( water, a net, etc..) then both of the has ich. 
The best that i recommend make the water 88*. If 86* might work or might not, 88* is working 100%. I would do full water changes but since you sure he bites his tail when you put him in a cup then do as much water change as you can. The temp will speed up parasites cycle and help them to fell faster so you can remove them manually.
With 88* you don't even have to stress out the fish with salt. Just do 88*and water changes. Do not stop the salt even if you don't see ich on him , treat about 8 or even longer day after you see it last . You need to make sure you get rid of the ones that might hide in the gill area. 
Everything that you use for them to change them rinse in the got water after each use and let it air dry until next use. Drying will kill parasites, no host they die.
Do not upgrade the tank until you know they free of ich. Do not buy new plants untill you sure they free of ich. Plants itself can carry ich. So when you go to the store make sure the store don't keep plants in the same tank they keep live fish.

Check this link , POST #10

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=2036738


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

How is your little guy feeling?


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks for the tips Anhel! I've been keeping the temp at 86 degrees and also doing some salt to keep finrot at bay. I'm considering disinfecting everything I can but for now I've pulled out everything except the gravel, plant, and terracotta pot hide. He did have a moment of nitrite poisoning a few days ago and he was looking absolutely awful. I tested the water, saw the level at 1ppm and immediately did a 60% water change which brought the nitrite down a to .25ppm. Not great but he was definitely feeling MUCH better. Ever since then he's been improving daily. His fins still look awful but a lot of the ich has fallen off. I see very very few small 'grains of salt' on his fins. I did a large water change last night [wanted to do a full change but I could not get the pleco out to safe my life and I was fearing that I was hurting him so I did about 80% instead. He's such a little thing, so easy to hurt! 
Due to some advice from a friend, I've changed my conditioner to Kordon's AmQuel Plus. I've also changed my food to New Life Spectrum's Betta Pellets, which seems to be much better. After last night's water change, I put a tiny piece of algae wafer in the tank for the pleco, returned to the tank a little while later to see that my -betta- was eating it... Mind you, I had fed him earlier that day. Now the poor guy's bloated *headdesk* And yes, I did suck the remaining wafer out. Now, my betta's fasting. You don't love your pets until they make you want to sometimes throttle them, right? Haha.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

Lefitte said:


> Thanks for the tips Anhel! I've been keeping the temp at 86 degrees and also doing some salt to keep finrot at bay. I'm considering disinfecting everything I can but for now I've pulled out everything except the gravel, plant, and terracotta pot hide. He did have a moment of nitrite poisoning a few days ago and he was looking absolutely awful. I tested the water, saw the level at 1ppm and immediately did a 60% water change which brought the nitrite down a to .25ppm. Not great but he was definitely feeling MUCH better. Ever since then he's been improving daily. His fins still look awful but a lot of the ich has fallen off. I see very very few small 'grains of salt' on his fins. I did a large water change last night [wanted to do a full change but I could not get the pleco out to safe my life and I was fearing that I was hurting him so I did about 80% instead. He's such a little thing, so easy to hurt!
> Due to some advice from a friend, I've changed my conditioner to Kordon's AmQuel Plus. I've also changed my food to New Life Spectrum's Betta Pellets, which seems to be much better. After last night's water change, I put a tiny piece of algae wafer in the tank for the pleco, returned to the tank a little while later to see that my -betta- was eating it... Mind you, I had fed him earlier that day. Now the poor guy's bloated *headdesk* And yes, I did suck the remaining wafer out. Now, my betta's fasting. You don't love your pets until they make you want to sometimes throttle them, right? Haha.



With the wafer, that happened to me too. XD I just made sure not to feed him for two to three days and he went back to normal. LOL I called mine a jerk when it happened, so yeah I at times want to throttle them. LOL


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Hahaha I called mine a brat. He's sick, I was being gentle.
And yeah I've had problems with bloating with him in the past so I've got the fasting thing down by now, I hope at least. I was feeding him too much at first. A lot of things say 'however much they can consume within this time'... Well, Chi's a piggy and he'll consume everything within a minute and it usually doesn't even take him that long. I've restricted him now to 2 pellets 2x a day but now that I've changed his food and it's slightly bigger, I think I might stay with 1 pellet 2x daily. Of course, that'll come after his bloat goes down. Oh, my silly boy. He's such a handful at times. His poor tail looks awful right now but his activity level is up to normal so he's on the upside of this illness! 

I seriously think I'm having so many problems with him due to poor breeding. He's the first 'fancy' betta I've owned and the first I can remember ever getting sick.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

I hope your boy gets better <3. I am having the same problem keeping my bettas healthy. =( issues with fin rot and all. =/


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks~ I hope your boys get better too!


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## FirstBetta (Jun 14, 2013)

Lefitte said:


> Since I just seem to be having one problem after another, what can I do?
> I'm getting a heater tomorrow. I'm *trying* to cycle my tank, won't 100% water changes ruin the cycle? I also want to get some java moss to add to the tank, though I think I'll wait until after the ick goes away. I read that heating the tank to 86 for a short period will help kill it along with salt. Since I'm doing salt, do I need to do 100% water changes and start my cycle over again? How often should I be doing the salt to rid of ick? I only just noticed 8 tiny white spots this evening.
> 
> It all comes down to; What can I improve to help my guy *stay* healthy?


I don't think you are having more problems then any novice fish keeper. What is important is you are trying to understand what is happening and learn from it. The ich probably came from the store with your guy. From what little I know about ich you seem to be doing the right things. I also don't know how salt affects the cycle. If you are concerned just keep doing the water changes 2 X 50% twice weekly and 1 X 100% weekly. Some of the more experienced guys (gals) will chime in to help. Most important don't beat yourself up for not researching more before diving in. I researched for several weeks full time and still managed to kill four fish the first time I added them to the tank. 

The second thing to remember is have patience. My favorite quote is "Nothing that happens fast in an aquarium is good".


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Keep up with the temperature and daily water changes at least a wk or two after you see ich last. 
I was reading the thread on the forum where someone said that 86 * is working close to not, but 88* is guaranty to work. But i guess if you see the improvement with 86 then it is helping. But still continue the treatment about 2 wks after you think they don't have it. 
I know that you said that you will transfer pleco to his own tank. But is there any way you can keep him in the separate hospital tank? I think every fish can have different immunity and different out come after treatment . I don't know i think i am a little paranoid but i like to be more safe . Also you saying that you are using salt , are you sure its ok to use salt for your pleco? Not all species tolerant to the salt. And are they both in 2.5 gall? Or i am wrong? Do you think they nipping ? Its way tooo small for both of them. 
Also i was thinking you already treated your betta with aquarium salt before. It is not recommended to treat with salt longer than 14 day. And if you can raise the temp up to 88* you don't even need to use the salt. With the temp parasites just can't complete their life cycle and simply will fall off and you will remove them with a water change. Salt is little stressful on fish , if you don't have to use it. As for the fin rot you doing daily water changes now , so it should help with mild fin rot. You also can add a bit of stress coat for the fins healing. Stess coat has Aloe Vera and very good for the healing.
Are you using the filter?
If you don't use the filter alternate daily water changes between 50% and 100%.
I would not cycle 2.5 gall especially if you don't have a testing kit. 
You said that Petco checked your water and it was 0.25 ammonia. Not sure if anyone mentioned that Prime by Seachem is most recommended in the situation like that because it converts ammonia to ammonium for 48 hrs, which is less dangerous. So if you have this problem try to get Prime and try to do 2-50% water changes and one full wter change and still check the ammonia. Sorry you already bought another water conditioner though. Not sure if you can exchange it?
Overfeeding is bad and can cause the swim bladder problem in the future. I don't even know why the bottles would write so wrong instruction  The people who don't know will do that and it very bad. 
NLS if it the one that i posted the link of , they are 1 mm you really can give him 2 in the morning and 2 at night . NLS most recommended on the forum , they are good and also have garlic in it which is also good for them immune system.

About disinfection. It the easiest way to disinfect after ich. All you really have to do just rinse with hot water and let it dry out for a wk or more. No host ich will die. So if you disinfect you don't need to use any solutions.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Update!

Chi was doing quite well after taking everyone's advice and using the increased temp. After seeing the last ich drop off, I did a 50% water change, making sure to vacuum the bottom really well and swish the filters in the old water. I've been doing 50% about twice a week and with the hose and bucket I have now, it's really decreased his stress during water changes a lot! I was even seeing some regrowth in his dorsal fin! Unfortunately, things didn't stay so great and we've backslid a little. Chi now has poor color [it was improving] again and some ich on each side by his gills and one on his left eye which I'm afraid will end up blinding him! He was acting extremely sick last night, not acting himself at all but he's doing much better mood-wise today. I've increased the temp from 86 to 88 and added a little salt which seems to be why he's doing better. 

In other news, on Sunday I fell in love with this other betta that just happened to catch my eye as I walked past the shelf at Petsmart. I said goodbye but couldn't stop thinking about him. After last night when I was afraid that I would wake up to a very sad sight in my tank [and happily didn't!], I decided that I should get that 10g hospital tank that I'll need for when I eventually get a 20g. He was still there. I have now welcomed a second betta into my home and I'm so enjoying him so far. Despite Chi's illness, he's taken to watching his neighbor with interest and without showing any discomfort [I'll block sight of them if that becomes a problem]. The new 10g is a bare minimum set up for now and I've found a hitch to my 20g plans [I don't trust that counter to hold a 20g plus more so I'll need to save up for one with a stand instead and figure out where to put it, my mom and I have that tank figured out perfectly and we can't wait to get it set up so this is a sad set back]. Since I have this set back with that tank, I'm going to set up this new 10g more than originally planned and use it to start growing some plants that I will eventually house in that tank. Not sure where my new boy will remain housed at [and I am tempted divide the tank for both boys but there are multiple reasons that's not the greatest idea] but I'll come up with something even if I end up buying a second 2.5 minibow to house him.
I did see ich on the new boy the first day I saw him but he looks quite healthy today! As a precaution, I'll be slowly raising the temperature in his tank as well. 

The new 10g tank houses only the new betta male. Chi's tank sits next to that with the pleco and amazon compacta within. 
The new tank only has a little bridge for a hide, a heater, and a thermometer that sticks to the outside. Within the next week, I'll be getting a few more things for the tank such as a better thermometer, a filter [I had other plans regarding the filter and the 20g which have sort of fallen through at the moment so I'll need something now], and probably some sand for the bottom. I also have a marimo moss ball that's going to stay in its cup for a couple weeks in quarantine. I've learned my lesson and now my favorite thing will be quarantining all the things. 

The new boy is quite the beauty. 
Click~
I think he's a Halfmoon Plakat mixture [like how Chi has some crowntail in him]. If the black outline of his tail is hard to see, that's because it's see through and my phone takes terrible aquarium photos. That blue-teal color is his true coloring and not a trick of the lighting. So pretty~ I might have some trouble with him flaring at his reflection too much in the future though. Chi found him rather fascinating to watch though, while the new boy didn't seem to notice him at all. I'm excited to see his personality develop. I love Chi's personality a lot and this one seems quite the opposite, Chi is very curious but very laid back.

Wish me luck!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I really wish you good luck , your new guy is beautiful. I am kind of scare of the big tanks though. For 7 years i have 2.5 gall tanks so its too complicated for me lol And i hate to share the tanks because if you have one betta sick he will contaminate whole tank.

Well the fact that Chi still has ich is worries me. Ich is fatal and very contagious to your new betta. So you really can not share anything between them. And the fact that he has it again is might be because you didn't completely get rid of them. They can reproduce and it will be more difficult to get rid of them. You need to continue with the temperature and water changes at least one wk after you see ich last on the fish. So keep with 88* but i really recommend 88* not even 86* since he has them for long time now and some people really saying that it a big diffirence between 86* and 88*. 88* i s more effective .
The temperature is more important than salt. And keep tank dark ,do not use light if you have it in the tank. Ich using light to reproduce. Some times if the ich stays for long time i think they can hide in the gills and it more difficult and longer to get rid of them. So do 88* do not stop even if he feels better continue with heat and water changes at least 2 wks after you see last. I am not experience with filtered tanks though. All my tanks without a filter. The reason i am saying that because i really think it is better to do daily 100% water changes or at least alternate daily between 50% and 100%. 
What dose of salt you using? The minimum theraputic dose is 1tsp/gall with daily water changes. You can increase salt up to 3tsp/gall but you can not use it longer than 14 days
So its up to you if you still want to use filter which you don't have to if you will decide to do full water changes. If you will continue to do 50% daily water changes and still use the filter it fine i guess too. 
About your new guy. Again DO NOT CROSS CONTAMINATE ANYTHINKG between both of them. Do not share the siphon or any thing else.That is why i don't like to share the tank, if one get sick then you have all tank and other fish contaminated. So if you think he has one spot of ich then it will miltyimpyed ,so keep 88* and keep it for minimum of 14 days. I understand he is in 10 gall but you still need water changes. So try at least 50% daily water changes with the temp. For the new guy i would not add salt . If it not a lot of ich and its in early stage the 88* should help. And you don't want to stress him out with the salt. And rinse the siphon in the hot water after each use. Hang it vertically so the water can drip out and it will air dry . The ich dies without parasites.

I know i am tooo too careful and i know that a lot of people didn't have the problem but there is a chance that you always can bring ich even with a live plant or with new fish. Watch this video my POST #10

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=2036738


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Update!
Since my last post, my dad has once again returned to the hospital so I've been struggling a little to keep up with the more intense care for my boys. Good news/bad news.
Chi; he's still alive! Trust me, there's been many mornings that I thought for sure he'd be floating when I woke up. I haven't seen any more signs of ich, his water is kept at about 89 and I've been doing 50% water changes twice a week (which is about every day off). The last change I did stirred up so much ich that next time I do it, I'm definitely going to try for a full change if I can at all. Not only does it stress him but I've had trouble netting my pleco... I did get most of the stirred up stuff out with my net though! His color is still awful, his tail is so very shredded, and he is officially blind in at least one eye. He had trouble finding his food tonight. I'm going to try to up the water changes as much as I can because his nitrate levels have been getting quite high. They may not be as dangerous but I would rather them be lower. I'm still running the filter and using AmQuel and NovAqua. I'm still feeding the boys NLS Betta Pellets. Chi also has a major problem with bloating so I feed him 1 pellet twice a day, or two once a day.
Kirei; Kirei is doing fantastic! His poor 10 gal looks so bare with only his bridge and one of Chi's old trees (I took it out months ago and nearly boiled it the water was so hot). I got him a better thermometer (submersible) and have been keeping the water at about 82. I will be lowering it to the regular 80 soon, there have been zero signs of ich or other illness. I also got him a Tetra Whisper EX20 filter. I like my filters. The current is a little strong so I plan to baffle it more than I already have. It only bothers him when he swims directly in front of it near the very top. He is a silly boy! I keep the lights off mostly because I need to make sure of what's really going on. I suspect he can see his reflection because the second I turn it on he starts flairing at eeeeverrythiing. Cat! Flare! Face! Flare! Oh, heater, gotta flare! But after a few minutes he settles down, I only leave it on for short supervised periods. He's still very active and curious and I'm very much enjoying him!
I've decided that Chi definitely has some bad genes. With all his problems... some were not helped by me (no heater for first coldsnap causing ich outbreak, for example) but with the care I've been giving, I don't think everything can be explained away without thinking about poor genetics. My poor boy. We hope to one day see his beautiful color and tail return. He really is a delight! I love him dearly.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

My computer acting weird so i can't write everything i want to. Hopefully my friend will fix it for tomorrow but one thing that i want to say. I would keep 88* for a little bit longer though. 
I do have a few more tips that i will post tomorrow hopefully.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey Lefi,i am very sorry about your dad I really hope he will feel better.
If you think that filters still too strong make sure you baffle them because they can stress bettas very much. And also make sure they don't get suck in the intake . I read a few people had the problem like that. 
You was using salt , did you stop it? You can't use it linger than 14 days and if he getting better with the temp you really don't need salt. You can use salt later for his fins if you think they getting worse. Temperature will help with ich without even salt. With the temp the ich just simply can't end the cycle and die. 

About 2.5 gall tank even if you would not treat him you would still need to do 2-50% water changes minimum a wk. And since he has some issue more water changes are really better. Not sure why he is getting blind though and his color is dull , really not good symptoms. I would hold 88* a little longer to make sure no ich hide in the gills. 
I was thinking if he sees his reflection may be he is biting his tail. Check those pictures with tail biting
https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...j4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks Anhel! My dad came home the other day and is doing well. 
The filter in Kirei's tank has mysteriously solved it's own problem xD The flow on it has calmed to a very slow rate. It's still working fine but I think the added filter I put in there settled into place, it's perfect! I have some foam filter in the intake as well to slow that down too and I haven't seen any problems there so far. 

I have stopped using salt. I've read some things that say that some studies show ich surviving the temperature change, even up to 90 degrees. This evening I did a 100% water change and rinsed everything, all the gravel, and replaced all filter material. I'm hoping that this helps wipe the ich out for good. It does however look like Chi has finrot again so I'm upping water changes to as many 50% changes as I can, hoping for daily. I also found a little glass 'fish bowl' shaped bowl at Walmart and I'm using that instead of cups to hold Chi during water changes. He seemed to do well tonight and I tried to stress him as little as possible. I also put the Amazon Compacta in a temporary vase [full of water] since it's been looking poor. This should help it recover on its own. 

In my 10g things are going fantastic. As I mentioned, the filter is working just right for him. I've acquired a few more little decorations and I got a leaf hammock [I got one for both of the boys]. I also added the Marimo moss ball finally. I bought it at the same time as Kirei but it's been in quarantine. It's looking perfectly healthy and I felt that it was time to add it to his tank. Seeing no illness or signs of ich, I've turned his tank down to the normal 80 degrees. He doesn't need to be so high and the moss ball will be happier with a lower temp too. 

I took some pictures tonight.
Both tanks. Chi on the left, Kirei on the right. I usually have a sight blocker between the tanks but it fell and I haven't found it since cleaning it, totally forgot until now.
Chi's terrible tail. My poor boy looks so awful. His coloring is absolutely terrible and his stress stripes haven't gone away for weeks. I'm amazed everyday that he's still alive.
Kirei lookin' pretty His tail looks a little ragged here but it's not. The tips are black, though see through. Things are looking really well for him. My little spoonhead.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am glad your father doing well!
Hmm about ich i read that it just can't complete its life cycle and just simply die with the temp above 88* .
Bettas hammocks ,make sure there is no metal wire inside . I never had them but people saying there is a metal wire that can rust and can give them infection. So just check on it. I think they don't put the metal wire any longer , it was an old version of the hammock. But just in case check.
Not sure why Chi's tail looks like that. And you don't have filer in his tank right? If he is acting healthy and eating just do water changes + stress coat and observe . If his tail will get worse you will need to treat him. Is his tank still heating 88* or your stopped it? You sure he don't have ich any longer? Did you hold the temperature at least 4-7 days after you saw it last? I am thinking he might have secondary infection after ich. If the edges look black and discolored, receding , ''smudged'' then its fin rot. You can try to treat with API Triple Sulfa. API Triple sulfa very good medication for the fin rot. Try to see for a few days and see if it will start healing . Usually if its healing you will see clear, transparency white edges. 

Kirei is gorgeous!!!


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## gizmo4 (Nov 1, 2013)

*Is bigger really better?*

Ms. Blue's original tank was one gallon with an LED light and I felt sorry for her so I decided to move her from the ghetto to the castle. I tried to put her in a larger tank with live ferns and much more and she had all kinds of things go wrong. See my post at gizmo for pictures.
I have had Ms. Blue for 4 months and today I can say she is healthy and happy. I have her in a 1.2 gallon tank, heater for night, 5 watt light for day, plastic plant and hammock. I use only Culligan water with 10 drops of conditioner. Today I tested the water (a week ago I changed the tank) the reading were Nitrate: 0; Nitrite: 0; Hardness: 0 very soft; Chlorine: 0; Alkalinity: 40 and PH: 40.
This tank has a immersible pump (2 watt) and undergravel filter system. I have put the undergravel filter under her stones but have not hooked up the pump. Waiting for someone to share about the flow. 
Good luck with the new larger tank. As for me I had to let go of my EGO and do what was best for Ms. Blue. She likes her ghetto home.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Just to clarify, I didn't upgrade any tanks. I have Chi in his original 2.5 gal and then I got another 10gal in which I have Kirei. =]

Unfortunately, Chi's condition has declined tremendously. His tail is nearly gone. The temp is still up, I haven't changed it at all. Yes, his tank is filtered. Tonight I did another 30% water change and added 1teaspoon of AQ Salt. I hope this helps him. He can't really swim, he's been floating on his side most of the time and I do checks every time I'm near the tank to see if he's still breathing. It's been this way for the past week or so. I really hope he starts improving but I think it would be a miracle at this point especially since I'm not sure what all is wrong anymore. I think there is one little piece of ich still on him, which I took for a loose scale but it still hasn't fallen off so I'm really not sure. I haven't seen any more ich except for that piece since I did that 100% water change the last week of October. 

It is exceptionally hard to tell if Chi has finrot or doesn't because his fins are dark, blacks and blues, and since being sick he's lost most of his color but the past couple days it's been clear that he's got finrot. I'm hoping the salt will help because in his condition I don't think adding another chemical would be a good idea. 

Does anyone have any ideas on how long I should quarantine my albino bristlenose pleco? Right now he's in Chi's tank but I'd really like to get him out of there so that he doesn't also get sick. My plan has been to move him into the 10 gal [there is a 20gal in the future which will be his adult home as well, the 10g was originally meant as a quarantine tank with Kirei taking over Chi's tank when he died but that, happily, hasn't happened and he seems to really really enjoy all that room. He's VERY active]. So as it stands I don't have a quarantine tank but I do have a vase which holds about a quarter to a half gallon of water and is currently holding my plant on quarantine but it's too small for my pleco. Really not sure what to do with him at the moment. He appears healthy despite having such a sick tankmate.

Kirei, in his 10gal, is doing fantastic still. His personality is developing in really fun ways.

Good luck with Ms. Blue!


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi Lefitte

I hope things are picking up for both your dad and your fish. My compliments on your pretty tanks and their stunning inhabitants.

I just wanted to ask about your pleco - I'm a little worried. Which tank is he in? Either one is going to be too small long term. If he's a smaller breed, like a bristlenose, he'll get to be about 6 inches long, and will need a 20 gallon. If he's a common, then 55-75 gallons is more realistic. Either way, plecos have a huge bioload and I worry that by keeping him in the smaller tank - whichever one it is - his growth may be stunted, and the water will be made nasty for the betta he shares with. 
If he's still in the 2.5 with your sick boy, those temperatures have got to be hurting him. Plecos are sub-tropical, meaning they prefer things below 78. They make popular pond fish in warmer areas for this reason. 

If your poor ichy boy isn't picking up, I think it's time to turn to harder drugs than salt and heat. I have had success with a number of ich medications, including Wardley's Ich-Away and one by Blue Planet (though I suspect that is limited to Australia).


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Ah I had a post here and my internet said NOPE.
Anyway, my pleco is an albino bristlenose pleco. He's currently about an inch and a half and has grown a little in the month and half I've had him. He is still in the 2.5 with Chi and I'd like to move him to the 10g but I have a problem... No quarantine tank. The 10g that Kirei is in was supposed to be the quarantine tank for the 20g I plan to get in the future, which will be my pleco's official home. I've been wondering about the temperatures too, I definitely didn't plan to have the temps so high for so long. And unfortunately my hours have been cut at work recently so I'm super short on money and can't buy something to function as a quarantine tank for him at the moment. My only options are a bowl I use for tank cleanings which is a little bigger than one of those cups bettas come in [maybe twice the size] or a vase which is about twice the size of the bowl and currently housing my Amazon Compacta since it hasn't been doing well in those conditions.

I do have some Kordon's Ich medication but it uses copper and I'm not sure how to use that, I don't really know much about it and there seems to be a lot of conflicting things about it. On top of that, I don't want my pleco Alby in there if I do use it so I'm back to square one. As for the Ich in general, I don't know for sure if he still has it. I've only seen that one little piece that I thought was a loose scale so it has me questioning things. His main problem right now is finrot.

Do you think that the finrot might be causing his swimming problems? Due to the bouts of illness and this newest case of finrot, Chi extremely little tail left. He's been having trouble keeping upright and he's been floating on his side a lot [so I have to check to make sure that he's still breathing]. With him being so very sick and sensitive to changes, I'm really worried about adding any new medications. I've started a salt regiment though and will be doing 30-40% water changes as often as possible, hopefully every day to every other day. Since I don't dare do a full water change with him being so sick, I have to be very careful not to compound the salt measurements too. *sigh* my poor boy. He's fighting hard and I'm doing everything I can to help him.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

sorry i don't remember what i was saying before so i will probobly repeat so forgive me if i already said it.
First if your other guy in his 10 gall is happy don't forget DO NOT CROSS -CONTAMINATE ANYTHING BETWEEN 2 other fish.

As for your other fish i don't even know what to say since they should not be in the same tank, and i don't blame you because you didn't expect that you will have such problem. Its just i guess you learned it hard way just like most people. If your room is worm enough to keep the fish without a filter i would use anything to separate them. And i don't even think that your platy is tolerant to the salt so you can't treat betta if they both in the tank. I actually not sure if platy are tolerable to the salt. And he has difficulty to swim because of fins -take the filter out. .

Also the major problem that you don't do enough water changes. For 2.5 gall with 2 fish you need to do way more water changes. 
Also you saying that you don't dare to do full water changes since he is sick. Well actually when fish is sick you need to do daily full 100% water changes. I can give you a few links that are just amazing check them out i will put them for you below.. . Its just amazing how much daily full water changes helps.
Chi might have what my 3 year old had, he was3 at that moment. It was 5 month ago.My 3 year old lost fins. He became she really , no fins left. He could not hold himself upright because of that. I treated him with 3 tsp/gall aquarium salt -14 days , daily 100% water changes + about week after the salt i treated him with API Triple sulfa. Than i thought that he still has issues and didn't recovered completely and about 2 month later i treated him again with the salt.(3tso/gall and daily water changes) He recovered and his fins grew back with time . Chi has issue for long time and it will be more difficult for him to recover though. But he needs more water changes. 

I don't know why people afraid to do full water changes. Here is a few links check them out. How bettas recovered with daily 100% water changes.

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=275929&page=4 
ALL THE SAME FISH

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=275929&page=2

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=275929&page=4

Post #34 and 36 page 4 completely comparison from day 1 to today

ANOTHER POST THE SAME FISH CHECK THIS OUT . ALL WITH full water changes 100%
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=291601

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=291601&page=4

I can give you a few more threads so you have idea about that.
And for the 10 gall its also really better to do more water changes than 25-30%. For 10 gall you need to do WEEKLY 50% with the gravel vacuuming and filter media swish/rinse in the tank water. Even though water seams to be clean there is still a lot of debris under the gravel and also the filter gather a lot of gunk on them .So all that water changes and filter media cleaning are really important.

About Chi if you don't see any ich on him than i guess he don't have it, because if he would have it than your other fish that in the same tank will have it. And + if he would have one spot than it would spread to the body.
Is he eating? I also fed my sick betta with frozen blood worms which i think also helped since it has a lot of protein and helps immune system


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

I sympathise with the work hours - lack of finances is so very limiting! 

If you do have a few spare dollars, a large plastic storage tub will do the job of a qt tank - here in expensive Australia we managed to find a 140 litre (40-ish gallons) tub for $30 in the dollar shop. A ten gallon one would easily do the job for you. As long as the room is warm, you shouldn't need a heater for your pleco for now. 

Fin-rot is definitely going to be contributing to Chi's swimming problems. If you can get Alby out of the tank, I would reduce to water level to about a gallon for Chi - it will mean he has less distance to cover when he needs to breathe. As Anhel has suggested, you probably need daily 100% change for him, especially since the tank is so overstocked. Plecos are really filthy fish, so the water will be getting ammonia-fied pretty quickly. If he is stressed by 100% changes, two 75% changes per day would do. 

If he doesn't have ich, that's great - one less thing his little body has to fight. To help combat the fin rot, I would use (if you can afford them) Indian Almond Leaves, StessCoat or similar (I like Seachem Stress Guard - it doesn't make my water as gunky). The best thing you can do for fin-rot is to keep the water super clean. If there's no ich, I'd lower the temperature back down to about 82-84. The warmth will encourage regrowth, but will be a bit better for the pleco. Chi will probably also not mind a lower temperature for a while.

Anhel has picked up on another important point - a high protein diet is really important for Chi right now. If you can't afford blood worms or other stuff, I would catch mosquitos or mosquito larvae. If you have mozzies in your area, put a bucket of water outside and just let it get stagnant. You should get a nice crop of wrigglies growing in it. If you catch these, you can feed them to Chi with a pair of tweezers. The wriggling should catch his attention, although he may be suspicious at first. These are baby mosquitos, or live bloodworms, and are full of protien. 

If you've been using salt for a prolonged period of time, I'd take a break from it - if you use too much, he will simpy adapt to it and it will lose its effectiveness.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

The reason I said I was worried to do a full water change is because they stress him out tremendously and I don't think he would be able to handle being moved even if I was incredibly gentle (I use cups and bowls to move him, not nets so its easier but still stressful for him). The filter is so baffled that there is almost no current at all, he can float right next to it and not be bothered but I prefer to have it on especially when adding salt to help mix the water up. Chi is mainly floating, he has no trouble getting to the top for air since that's the only place he's been at. I've been feeding him NLS Betta Pellets. I do have some dried bloodworms but I can look into frozen, I've been wanting to anyway. I don't want to try catching live ones, I'm pretty sure leaving out stagnant water here can result in fines because of the mosquitos and I really don't need to be attracting any with my dad's health condition haha. 

As for a QT tank. I can look into some tupperwear like you suggested but the temperatures have been dropping significantly lately. Do you its possible that I could go with something small enough to float in my 10g instead? I also have to have lids for everything because I have some pretty curious kitties.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Most storage bins come with lids - you can just poke a few holes in them for airflow.  

If the temperatures are dropping, then floating him may be better, but you'll have to be super careful to make sure that his water and the water in the ten gallon don't touch. Alternatively, you could put Alby in the ten gallon and have your second betta floating in the tupperware (if tupperware floats).


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I could definitely switch them like that even if I think Kirei would go stir crazy. I can't imagine him in anything smaller than 5g, he's so active/hyper. His coloring has improved since I got him too and I'm teaching him to follow my finger (where he was scared for the first week and would either run or flare). I'm going to try to get a picture of Chi to show you guys just how bad he is. =/


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Here are some pics I just took of Chi. He's really doing awful. I got him to eat a small bloodworm and he's currently trying to eat a pellet but I think the pellet won the fight. (I feed Aqueon freezedried bloodworms and NLS betta pellets that are only 1cm and he's having trouble eating them). Did I mention that I'm pretty sure the ich on his eye has blinded him in one side? 
The good news is, the water change and salt helped I think because he seems a little more active today. He's also been floating between my heater wire and airline wire (I keep the airstone off) to keep him upright. Smart boy. 
Oh! He just ate the pellet! I think his fines are looking better than yesterday as well. Maybe later I will do a full change. He's strong enough to stay upright on his own. There have been days that he could get off his side, floating at the top.

Meanwhile, Kirei is flaring at me and trying to get attention. Their tanks sit side by side with a sheet of stickers to devide them (only thing handy at the time, perfect size too).


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am paranoid with water from qt get in 10 gall. My fear also that since Alby was in the same tank with Chi he also might be sick , may be show symptoms later,Or simply his immune system stronger and he don't show symptoms, but it can be still contagious for Kirei. 
I forgat if you have heater in your 2.5 gall?
I was thinking to keep Chi in 2.5 gall lower the water level as much as you can to keep the heater submerge in the water. 
Alby- you can buy a bigger tupperware though and let it float.
If you can't remove 100% water , you can buy turkey buster. If you live in USA its on sale for $1 not before the holidays . So you can remove 90% or more of the water and suck all debris from the bottom.
I know some of my fish get mad with full water changes and it seems they stressed but as soon as i put them back they are perfectly fine. But you know your fish better.

We posted at the same time , didn't see or read your post....


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How much of the salt you adding?
I don't know if you know the instructions but it will be different from the one on the back of the salt box. Those instruction just for the preventative care. Pre mix and dissolved all salt before you adding it. Do 1 tsp/gall for the first time and increase to 3tsp/gall from the second treatment. Do daily water changes and continue for 14 days . Remove as much water as you can. Lower his temperature to about 78* since infection get worse in the warmer water.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

. If I did the tupperware I would tape it to encourage no water sharing between the two. I have heaters in both tanks. The 2.5 is at 88 and the 10g is at 80. I have a turkey baster for the tanks and a gravel vacuum as well that seems to clean the gravel a lot better. I usually take the water out while vacuuming the gravel, one easy step. Chi gets very stressed over things and used to but his tail after 100% water changes which is why I've been avoiding them for him.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I've been adding one rounded teaspoon to his tank since I haven't been able to do full water changes and I've been worried about compounding the salt. I always predisolve in some fresh, treated water.I could definitely add more, especially after I take Alby out. I have tupperware but all of it has been washed with soap.
As for conditioners, I've been using AmQuel Plus and NovAqua Plus. NovAqua has a stress coat in it if I'm not mistaken.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Got a good one of his finrot. Poor boy.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

It is very bad case of the fin rot. I am not sure if salt will be even enough though. Do 3 tsp/gall minimum and daily water changes. But i am pretty sure you will need medications sooner or later. You can try salt first and see if it will help. Api Triple sulfa is good for that or Kanaplex. Kanaplex you can buy only at the small private fish stores.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Oh and do note that his fins were very short from being sick before this and hadn't grown back yet. So the amount he's lost to this finrot is actually very little. Little enough that I just noticed it the past couple of days. I'll definitely look into the medicine.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

The bad news is, that's bad. The good news is, I've seen worse, and I've seen fish recover from it. My halfmoon lost his tail almost up to his body - with daily changes, Indian Almond Leaves, warm water and Stress Guard, it grew back. I also encouraged him to flare daily for a few minutes with a mirror - that seemed to be the clincher. Once I started doing that, improvement was rapid.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Its not even that the fins are short , its just fin rot is very bad He has infection going on , and it severe case unfortunately. And it contagious to your other betta too. If you going to use medication you will need to use a few coursed of it,so if you use one do not stop after first course. Meanwhile i would do salt. Just need to separate your platy. So sorry for all trouble , i feel bad but you doing good job.
Oh and of course i am late didn't see last post


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Ooh flaring would be good even while sick? I have a floating mirror toy but I haven't been using it since he got worse. He's never really been one to flare but he's incredibly curious about things. I'll try that and see how he does. Can I use the NovAqua instead of Stress Guard or something similar? I'm not sure how similar they are.

You say warm water, how warm? I planning to lower the temp since that was suggested too. 
And do you think the Indian Almond Leaf and Stress Coat would be better than salt and medicine? Trying to decide the best course of action.

The only things I share between, I rinse with steaming hot water and let dry between uses (like the gravel hose and cups). That should prevent any disease from spreading, right?

I think we'll be going to the store tonight so I can get a few things. One good thing about my work hours is the multiple days off.

Pst, its a pleco, not a platy.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Lefitte said:


> Ooh flaring would be good even while sick? I have a floating mirror toy but I haven't been using it since he got worse. He's never really been one to flare but he's incredibly curious about things. I'll try that and see how he does. Can I use the NovAqua instead of Stress Guard or something similar? I'm not sure how similar they are.


I'm not familiar with NovAqua, but if it contains some sort of de-stressing agent, or claims to de-stress fish, you may as well. 
I used the mirror on the advice of a friend - she had a betta who had lost his tail due to bitey tankmates. He showed very little regrowth until she started exercising him - after that, his tail grew very well. I had the same experience with my fin-rotty boy.  It might not work for every fish, but I think it might help. 



Lefitte said:


> You say warm water, how warm? I planning to lower the temp since that was suggested too.
> And do you think the Indian Almond Leaf and Stress Coat would be better than salt and medicine? Trying to decide the best course of action.


I would keep the water around 84-86. 
At this stage, the poor boy has been subjected to a fair amount of salt - if it's been more than 10 days since the initial treatment, it will begin to lose its effectiveness as Chi adjusts to it. Prolonged use can also damage the kidneys, I believe. If it's just finrot that he's battling now, I'd go back to natural methods. IAL and lots of warm, clean water. 



Lefitte said:


> The only things I share between, I rinse with steaming hot water and let dry between uses (like the gravel hose and cups). That should prevent any disease from spreading, right?


I would also clean it in bleach or vinegar, just to be sure - or better yet, just find something else for cleaning the non-infected tank.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Ooh I think that I will continue trying with the mirror then. It's at least some stimulation. I tried it a few minutes ago and he completely ignored it but I think that he's a little worn out from chasing his food around right now [he keeps missing and has to figure out how to try again].

He was on salt last month but I stopped about two weeks ago and he hasn't had any since then. I also did a 100% water change around that time. It may still have less of an effect though. It really does seem to make him feel better though. He was on it for about two weeks before that so I'm worried about the prolonged exposure. The more I read about IAL, the more I'm liking the idea regardless of medicine or not. 

As for cleaning, is vinegar as harmful as bleach? Do you have to be as careful?


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

If that's the case, doing another ten days of salt should be fine.  

IAL is great! I love it - I frequently use it even when my fish are healthy.

I believe vinegar is considered less risky, but you still want to be very careful with it.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I ordered some IAL from Amy Lim on Ebay but they won't arrive for a couple of weeks. I think I'll just continue the salt and water changes that I have going for now. I'll have to get some tupperware another day unless I can find something appropriate to use until then. Even if I sanitize some tupperware we already have with bleach or vinegar or boiling or a mixture of those, I don't feel safe putting plastic in the tank when I know it's been washed with soap so that's not an option to me. I'm going to do a water change and look around for options for Alby.
Thanks for the help guys! I really appreciate it!
I really think that Chi has some major immune system issues from poor breeding. Though I haven't been the sole caretaker of the bettas we've had before, we've never ever had so many problems and I feel like the places I've failed as a caretaker don't add up all the way for all of his problems. It doesn't help that he's a tail biter. I'm a firm believer in 'you might not get the pet you want, but you get the one you need' and I've certainly had a crash course in fish care with him. More than I would have learned if he wasn't such a sickly fish.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I think you are very good trying to help your pets the best you can. And yes all pets can get sick at any time or already come sick . So it understandable that any animal or fish , or human can get sick any time no matter how right care you give them. We do the best we can, i like to take all precautions though. In the fish situation i guess the first precautions will be not sharing stuff between all fishy, and make sure you trust your store when you but those live plants, because it can bring ich with the water, if the store share the water for the plant with the water from sick fish.
Btw what bring to my attention is that your first fish lived for 6 years in a vase without filter. And the funny is that so many people trying so hard to give their bettas bigger tanks, filters, plants ...etc..and still have a problem. And i just have so simple tanks (10 betta) without filters, and my bettas live long happy life . I also have old bettas too. One is already older than 5 years old(he is older). And it funny also that i did had 10 gall tank with the filter (my first betta) that live only for a year. 
So we all have our different experience and we base our advice on that.
Keep us updated please.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Btw what bring to my attention is that your first fish lived for 6 years in a vase without filter. And the funny is that so many people trying so hard to give their bettas bigger tanks, filters, plants ...etc..and still have a problem. And i just have so simple tanks (10 betta) without filters, and my bettas live long happy life . I also have old bettas too. One is already older than 5 years old(he is older). And it funny also that i did had 10 gall tank with the filter (my first betta) that live only for a year.
> So we all have our different experience and we base our advice on that.
> Keep us updated please.


Just goes to show you, there isn't a right or wrong way. It's what works best for you and your circumstance. I believe a lot of problems people have is a result of making it to complicated.
R


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Lol i agree


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Very true! And the same isn't true for every fish either!

I should clarify though, my first betta lived without a filter for 4-5 years but when he started looking a little under the weather, we went ahead and bought him one which I believed helped him to live another year or two. All my other bettas after him had filters and only one died within a year of adoption (within a few months I think, I don't think he was healthy to begin with). So I can't say Sushi (my first) lived the whole time without one. I also don't know the details of his care because I was... like.. 8 when he died haha. 

I'm trying to keep things simple. Chi seems to have other ideas.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

4-5 years is a good life for a betta. So far i have one that is older than 5 but i have a few that died at 2.5 and 3. But really some people don't have betta that old though.
Good luck on Chi. Keep us updated how it going, please.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Sad news about my pleco: Alby has died. I'm not sure if it was the stress of the water change last night or maybe he wasn't eating enough (he ignored the algae wafers). Sad as it is, there is a good part in this, now I don't have to worry about quarantining Alby or about rushing to set up my future 20gal for him. Quite sad though =(

On a good note, Chi's mood seems to have improved and his energy but just a little. I'll be doing another 100% water change in a little while.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry , its is sad
Sorry i forgot what dosage you using for the salt? Use the therapeutic dose . The instructions on the box are just for the preventative care. I am really adviced to use full therapeutic dose of the salt.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

+1
And with the infection like he has actually you need to lower the temp to ab about 76* because bacteria and fungus thrive in the warmer water and will get worse.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Anhel; I've been using 2 to 2 1/2 rounded teaspoons. I read the therapeutic dosage is 1 teaspoon per gallon for fin rot. I used a little less [2 tsp] for the first dosage and then upped it on the second dose to 2 1/2. Usually I dissolve it in one of the cups I got them in and then slowly add it into the tank after I've added all of the water. Tonight I tried something different. I did a 50% water change then dissolved the salt [2 tsp] into about 2 gallons of water then used that full mixture to slowly add refill the tank [with my Kordon conditioners of course]. I'm not sure if that's a better way to do things or not since I can't tell how accurately how much salt he's getting since there was still a lot of water left over which I threw out.

Sunlight; I was thinking about the temperature. There seems to be debate on what temperature is best, a little bit warmer or a little bit cooler. Since the tank was at 86, I've brought it down over the past couple of days and it should now be sitting at 80*. It was 82* before the water change tonight.

As for an update; Things are looking up! I can see less of the actual rotting fin than I could the other day and it might just be a trick of the light but I do think that his color is improving! He also ate quicker today and was more interested in it although he's still having trouble finding it and actually eating it. He seems to spit it back out and wait for it to get softer before trying again. He's still occasionally floating on his side and having trouble maneuvering however he's not clamping his pectoral fins as much as he was before! I have an updated picture from tonight as well. Does Chi seem a little skinny? He has had problems with bloat since day one so I've been feeding him one pellet, twice a day. For the last couple of days, he's received a few more freeze dried bloodworms than he probably should have. I was thinking the boost in protein would be beneficial and he seems to have less trouble eating them, too. Oh! And you can also see the piece I've been talking about, the one by his gill that I'm not sure if it's the last remnants of ich or a loose scale but it's been there for about two weeks now? No other signs of ich whatsoever. What do you think it is?

Kirei has also started to develop a darker blue color on his caudal and anal fins. You can kind of see flashes of it in this video I took of him tonight: click!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Kirei is sooo hyper . Almost all my bettas are older than 2.5 years old so they not that hyper. He is so gorgeous ,wow. I didn't see anything abnormal though. Just keep water super clean for him. Don't forget to swish /rinse filter media in the tank water weekly. And do minimum 50% water changes weekly. You always can do more water changes if you need to depending on the test reading.

Chi, you can use 3tsp/gall because he has severe case of the fin rot. Do it for 14 days. The salt dose is 1 up to 3 tsp/gall depends on severity .
Not sure what is that white spot but i don't think it ich. If it would be ich it would spread all over him. And it is not fluffy i think. Looks like a bubble...not sure what it is. It even looks like a lymphocytes even , which is virus that you can't treat and usually it not fatal. I have some pictures of the betta with lymphocytes if you want i can try to find them for you. It looks similar to what he has. Usually you don't do anything about that. All you need to make sure it not get infected. But i am not 100% sure if it really that.
Temperature . Usually with bad infection people recommending to lower water temperature to about 76-78 *. Bacteria always get worse in the warmer water ,especially fungal infection. So you really can reduce a little more.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Haha isn't he? I'm glad someone agrees! I felt like a broken record but he really is pretty hyper. It's entertaining. He was creeping on me last night too, slowly peeking at me along the bottom of the tank. Haha see why I fell in love with him? So pretty. 

Chi was looking like he was having a little trouble tonight and it's a pretty cold night so I opted out of doing a full water change and did about 70% instead. Since I didn't take out all the water, I only put about 2 1/2 tsp of salt, added it to my bucket and had a lot of left over water again so it likely wasn't the full dose. I'll have to figure out which way seems to work better for me, the higher concentrated dose of salt added directly to his tank or the less concentrated dose added to the whole bucket of fresh water, part of which goes down the drain.

After looking up lymphcytes, I definitely don't think that's what this is. Those are described as 'cauliflower in shape' and white and this is almost clear and sticks up more like a scale. I can't find any really good pictures of loose betta scales though to be sure. 

With tonight's water change, I did turn the temp down. The heater I have in that tank is a little more powerful than it should be [I didn't realize when I bought it, I read something wrong when reading all the different packages] so I can't go by the different degree notches on the heater. I keep a good check on the thermometer every time I change it and only do small changes at a time so that I don't make things change too drastically. It should even out to 78* now. [And yes, I do have a submersible thermometer] Turning it down makes the most sense to me, but I'm very glad I did it so gradually, that's nearly a ten degree difference in a little over a week after all. 

I also purchased some Hikari frozen bloodworms tonight! Both boys slurped those guys up real quick, [after Kirei flared at it as it fell] even if the two I gave Chi sank and I had to feed him via tweezers since he's having a lot of trouble swimming down. Tonight was the first time I've seen him try to swim down since getting sick and now I'm curious if he might be having swim bladder issues. One reason I got the frozen bloodworms tonight was to avoid him bloating which he's had problems with since day one. 

How often should I feed Chi the bloodworms? I know the freezedried bloodworms should only be fed about once a week but the frozen bloodworms are different?

Thanks for all your help guys! I'm not sure he would've made it this long without you!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i just really love Kirei's drawing in your avatar!!!

I don't remember if any one or i suggested to have NLS or Omega one? Sorry its 6 pages..i don't remember what food you been feeding.
Try to get those:
http://www.bigalspets.com/betta-formula-1-mm-semi-floating-pellets-50-g.html

http://www.petco.com/product/116563...ne-_-1483889&gclid=CKyltJu77LoCFWrNOgodvHsA8Q

Both of them contain less grains and better food ,especially if Chi has swim bladder issue, it is better for him . The NSL also has garlic in it which i think also good for the immune system. Freezedried once some people saying that they can be constipating . So feed it only as a snack about 2 -3 times a wk. I would really recommend to buy frozen blood worms , the one that you can find in the freezer. I am pretty sure all pet stores carry it. It also has a lot of protein and very good. I think it helps a lot when fish is sick.

About that white. I think it can be his slime coat. Some fish has a bit of excess of the slime coat when they sick , or if you treating with salt or medications. It usually natural protection against the disease. When you change the water is coming off or not? 

If Chi has trouble to swim down and pop back up like a cork he has swim bladder problem. Feed him small meals just like you said you been doing. Or even you can divide it for a 3 meals (one pellet 3 times a day) .At first i though that he has problem swimming because of his fins , which is also i think still contributing to it. But If it is swimm bladder issues then Epsom salt is recommended so you can switch to Epsom. You can switch to Epsom any time. But it is better to do a few 50% water changes to get rid of the aquarium salt. Even do 3-50% water changes. Epsom salt you can buy at any pharmacy department. Not at the pet store. Epsom salt used for the human to help with edema. Epsom in fish recommended with bouyancy problem, constipation, internal parasites. The instructions are the same as for the aquarium salt. But Epsom you can use longer though. Epsom should be unscented 100% Magnesium sulfate without any additives. It still have antibacterial effect and will help with his fin rot. But he has severe case of it so i don't know if Epsom will really heal it though. You can try to switch him on Epsom and see how his fins go. If it will not improve i would use medications. Try to see if you think he has swim bladder problem and then switch him to Epsom .Use aq salt for a few more days unless you think his swim bladder getting worse.

Never add salt directly to the tank though. Always dissolve it first. I love to dissolved it in one gall jog. Just keep one from the spring water.

About lymphy..sometimes those come as a white not fuzzy patches. Just like this one check the POST #17 But its is different that Chi has though. I just want you to see the picture. Just check the picture again and it really not even look as it his slime coat either. It looks like a bobble.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=298625&page=2


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Wowzer. When his fins grow back he is going to be amazing.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Haha my avatar is actually a blurry photo. He's hard to get good photos of, especially with a slow phone camera.

I feed the boys NLS betta formula. Chi gets 1 pellet twice a day and Kirei ges 2 twice a day. I was feeding Chi the same amount but the bloating issues made me cut it down. I suppliment that with 1-2 freezedried bloodwormsa week. I bought some frozen bloodworms last night that the boys loved.

I'll look into the epsom salt, I work at a drug store so its very easy to get. 

As for the white, that still looks a little bubbly and opaque where his is more free flowing and nearly clear. Its been there 2 weeks or so. I watched it develop but it hasn't grown or changed since then.

I really hope to see Chi healthy again. He was gorgeous when I brought him home. I'll show you a picture I took when he first started biting his fins.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wow he is gorgeous! I really hope he will get back he was before. Keep us updated please


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Gah, I want him.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks guys! I miss his pretty fins and healthy attitude a lot. 

I took an update photo but the lighting really changes how things look so it's hard to get a real comparison going. The tips of his fins looks a little more... clumpy? than the last photo I took however they seem to have little to no black anymore.










Does he seem the least bit bloated to you? He doesn't look bloated and maybe even a little on the skinny side instead of the bloated? I fasted him all yesterday and this morning to see if it would help his SBD but it hasn't had much affect. He might be having a slightly easier time of staying off his side but he's still having trouble swimming down... or anywhere actually. In good news, I thought I saw some new growth on his dorsal fin this morning.

I bought some Epsom salt tonight [100%, pure] but I think I should continue the AQ salt for a couple more days. Is a 30 minute bath a better idea than adding it to his tank?

In Kirei-related news, I'm adding some new pictures to Kirei's Album on my profile on here. He made his first bubblenest! So cute! I've also decided that he's not the least bit plakat like I thought when I got him. He was just young, His fins have filled out to almost a perfect D-shape.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I did water changes tonight, 100% for Chi and added 2tsp/gal of AQ salt. Very slowly acclimated him back into his tank and after a few minutes, I fed the boys. 

Chi got one tiny pellet of NLS Betta Formula. 
I repeat, one tiny pellet.

And immediately bloated. Can you hear my sigh? The picture I posted before makes him look bigger than he really was, I figured one pellet would be okay after 36 hours without.

In cup.

Top view while in cup

After one pellet

Again

Looks like I'll be fasting him again and probably trying an epsom salt bath tomorrow, although I'm not even sure it's safe to take him from aq salted water and put him into epsom salt water? His fins aren't as healed from the finrot as I thought but the epsom salt should help draw out excess fluids. Oi Chi.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

He is fine before he ate the pellet and wow bloated after one NLS.
You can use aq salt if it helps with his fins. 
The reason you not recommended to use AQ salt in bloat cases is because salt causes fluid retention so if the kidneys aren't working, using something that makes even more fluid will just make the fish more bloated because without working kidneys it can't process the fluid. BUT, not all bloat cases are caused by kidney infections so in these cases, using AQ salt is okay. Since we know that he is bloated right after food i think it could be not kidney related and you can use aq salt little bit longer.
How about frozen food , does he get the same bloated? Also frozen daphnia really good too and people also recommending it for the constipated betta so i would think it also will helpful for Chi.
If you want to use Epsom i would wait and do complete water change first , even may be wait one day and then use it. I am not sure if it will help though. But there is no harm to it, and it might help. The reason why i want you to completely change the water from aq salt and wait a day because recently i saw 2 people who's fish had small reaction to Epsom and they used it right after they used aq salt. It may be was just coincident because fishy were sick. But since it happened i would recommend to wait a day between two salts.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I was really surprised by how quickly and how much bloat there was after that one pellet! I've only fed him frozen once and didn't notice a change. Freezedried does make him bloat even when healthy if I feed too much. I'm going to feed him frozen bloodworms next time I feed him, hopefully tomorrow [later today, whatever] but that depends on if he's pooped. I've heard about frozen daphina but I haven't ever tried it. I might look into it though since it seems like it might help.

I believe, like I've mentioned before, that his problems have a lot to do with genetics so I think you're right about the kidney problems not being the issue with his SBD, however I definitely don't want to cause any kidney problems either so I think I'll be stopping the salt within the next few days. 

Good news tonight! When I did his full wc and replaced him in his tank, he swam -down-! It's been so long since I've seen him swim, and stay, down that I had to cheer haha. He's still staying by the top of the water a lot but it's a little more like his usual than him having problems. I can see, very obviously, where his back pokes out of the top of the water because it's either drying out or has some evaporated salt on it? Slightly white colored little rings, only where his spine pokes out of the water. Poor guy. The good news though is that he's keeping himself under water now, hovering just under the waterline. He has always slept in a corner, floating just under the waterline like that.

I also changed the first filter in both the boys' filters tonight. I have three in each; the typical filter cartridge then I use Fluval's foam filters to baffle in the intake and output areas. The intake foam filters were both completely covered in gunk. I discovered that this was the reason Kirei's filter was... doing... nothing. It has 'bioscrubbers' that are supposed to catch and hold the good bacteria and I think the intake foam was preventing that from taking place so I've removed it entirely and I'm hoping that will help my cycle instead of restarting the process. This means both filters are back at full strength. I've added another block of foam to Kirei's output to settle that down although it may need some adjusting and I've turned Chi's filter off for now. I prefer having a little bit of water flow even if it's nearly nonexistent but it was just strong enough to create the tiniest current and Chi was avoiding it and the rest of the tank along with it. I also added 2tsp/gal to Chi's tank again tonight. I really am delighted by the improvements tonight! I may not need to worry about the epsom after all!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

If you turn the filter down then do full water changes every 5 days for his 2.5 gall . If it more convenient for you you really can do only 50% water change daily and full water change every 5 days while you treating him. Do not worry about filter i don't have filters in any tanks and my bettas live long. I am glad he seems to be little better . I hope he will continue getting better.
As for the filters. I think not all people realize that they have to clean (swish/rinse filter media regularly). I think it was the reason my first betta (7.5 years ago) didn't live long at all , just for a year. I never rinse the filter media, and i think it is very important. So since then i keep all my tanks without filtration. Btw it not really necessity if you do right water changes.My bettas live long life now with just regular water changes. 
Don't understand anything in filters . The only filter i saw in my life is 7.5 years ago. But people saying that you don't need to change those cartridges often. You can keep it until it almost falling a part , just rinse it weekly with the tank water.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

+1. You can just rinse a gunky filter cartridge in dirty tank water.  It gets the large particles and cruddy bits off, which are the things stopping it from functioning, without impairing its BB colonies.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I'll definitely swish those filters pieces much more often from now on but I don't think I'll be replacing the one in Kirei's tank. I do think that its not helping as much as i'd like it to. I've had the opposite experience with filters where my betta lived much longer. I especially like them for the surface aggitation. My 2.5 gets a film on the water (protein film?) So it really helps. Not to mention the inevitable cat hair landing on the surface.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

The bloat still hasn't gone down and I haven't fed him since that pellet that caused the bloat. He's been floating mouth up now which is better for his back as it's now usually in the water.
Going to the store to get some frozen daphnia now.. I don't even have any peas if I were to try that so it's the only option for that right now.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry i kind of think it might be chronic too. I think when you done aq salt may be keep him in the clean water for a little bit, and i think may be it good idea to try Epsom salt. And if he is not getting better with fasting and will get bloated after food, you still need to keep feeding him so he can get nutrients to be strong.
Keep us updated


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Yeah that's another reason I went ahead and got the daphnia today instead of waiting. Both boys seemed a little confused about it and I think I fed too much. I don't think Chi got very much, a lot of it fell and he couldn't really go after it very well but he did get some and I think its helped. He seems a little more active. I'm really hoping a diet mixed between pellets, daphnia, and bloodworms will help him out. I stopped the salt tonight and have some left over water from tonights wc sitting in case I decide to try an epsom bath soon. I'm hoping to see no bloat in the morning!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I know daphnia kind of difficult to feed , most of it go on the bottom. I usually do it when i do full water changes because i am afraid to contaminate the water. 
I don't know may be try to use white disposable spoon. Just put some in the spoon and put the spoon in the water.


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## SalsaMom (Aug 16, 2013)

I feed daphnia with a 'human' oral syringe.

I let the daphnia thaw on a plate, put the oral syringe in the tank (of course this syringe is fish only use!) and draw up a LITTLE water...put that on the daphnia to make it easier to draw them up.
Then I draw a little up and I put the end of the syringe in the water and he comes on over and I SLOOOWLY plunge it...

I've gotten pretty good at this - plunge a tiny bit...wait...plunge more...wait..
Takes about 10 minutes or so, but I just give them to him once every week or 10 days and it's fun to watch him go crazy over them.
He hauls over to the syringe when I put it in the water and will bite at it if I don't plunge some out quickly enough.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I have a glass ear dropper that I use for dosing the Amquel so I might just get another.
Right now its not a problem as far as water quality goes since I'm cleaning every day. 

Today, he's going from floating at the top to laying on the gravel. He can get up for air so I'm hoping its a good sign that is SBD is getting better.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes now its not the problem with daily water changes.
How are his fins though doing? Any better? Well never mind i think its too early to ask. I guess now you just need to make sure it not getting worse meaning hopefully will get better.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

His fins are the same. He's. Not clamping them as much, the color seems to be improving on them and his body, and I haven't seen any more deterioration. Except a small spot on his dorsal that looks like its mending with new growth, I haven't seen any. That's understandable though. Its hard to have regrowth when you're feeling so ill. Last night after the daphnia and wc, he was fairly active. I'm hoping he looks bettwe when I get off work tonight. I'm also hoping to get him to eat something. Still hoping that the fact he was laying on the bottom was a sign that his SBD is going away. Right now, that's his worst problem. I've got the ich taken care of, the finrot looks gone (his fins have a lot of black and it makes it very hard to tell between actual rot and healing fin). His loose scale by his gil also fell off and that area looks good now, no sign of a wound or missing scale. He might have loosened it by rubbing when he had ich. Keeping my fingers crossed! My mom's currently looking after him but there isn't much she can do for him until I get home anyway. Wishing him luck!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh good luck! You doing so much for the little guy, thank you!


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Thank you! If an animal has a life expectancy, it ends up being more like a goal. If bettas can reach 5-6 years, I fully intend to do my best to get him there.

I had a big scare when I got home though. I always look for him as soon as I get in the door, so I'm looking and my mom goes "I haven't told you yet..." she thought he was dead but I did a light tap and saw a fin twitch so I grabbed my net and very gently touched him with it. A moment later, he was zipping around the tank. A few minutes later, I fed him some more daphnia. I don't think he got much the last time. My mom said she saw him trying to poop and he looks thinner but I can't find the evidence yet (gross, I know). I used an eyedropper to put little clouds of daphnia right in front of him and about midway through he realized he liked it. He ended up nipping the dropper and popping any air bubbles it made. Half the time he laid on his hammock and let me feed him. If you can bottle feed a fish, this is what it looks like. I'd say he got a healthy amount.

His fins do look better but there's some lift on some scales above his gills that I'm not so sure I like the look of. He's been spending a lot of time under the heater on the gravel. I wonder if I should turn the temp up a degree? Its at 79-80.
I'll attach some photos from tonight, even if my phone refused to focus on the foreground.

I'm liking how his fins are doing, the edges look worse here than they really are.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Update on my little one: He's still hanging in there but not doing as well as I was hoping he would. I fed him some more daphnia and one small blood worm yesterday and fasted him today. Cleaned the tank. He's being pretty lethargic still. I DO think I see a tiny bit of regrowth starting on his fin edges though.

Ps. That whitest smudge by his face is actually a smear on the glass, not him.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I really think it better to treat him with medications . It not only his tail but something is definitely wrong. If you can get Kanaplex Seachem. You can find it only in the small private stores. Kanaplex acting internally as well externally. He is not looking good at all;( 
How he doing today?


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Hmm. I really don't want to do medicine because I've never used it and its controversial and because I don't know -what- I'm treating either which is a big part of it. I've been thinking I might need some though... I think I'll look into it. 

Chi's doing okay. Not any better. I found him under his little temple today which I didn't think he could fit under. I got worried that he might be stuck and immediately, gently, lifted it. It scared him and he zipped around the place before resting at the top of the tank. There is a little regrowth and he's got a little belly on him but not to the point of bloat. I'm going to try feeding a pellet today. I fasted the boys yesterday.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Is he swimming a little bit at least or just lethargic most of the time?
Don't know what to say....he is not getting better for long time. If you will decide to medicate him then definitely use Kanaplex. It the best one almost one that works both internally and externally.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

He hasn't been swimming much for the past day and a half. I can try to see if any of the small petstores sell Kanaplex but we don't have any really good freshwater stores. I'm hoping that the the saltwater fish store has it. (Its a really nice but small shop. Their fish are so healthy and beautiful! Makes me wish I did saltwater!)


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

awww no no i am glad you have bettas lol They are so beautiful . Believe me salt water fish get sick too 
I would try medications especially if he is swimming less meaning he might get little worse. Feed him , he needs energy .


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Oh definitely! I was thinking and I'm pretty sure my first betta was the first pet I can remember having. And yeah hopefully I can get some medicine =/
I'll try to feed him more later. Maybe a bloodworm or two so I can get it to him easily.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Good luck! Keep updated I hope he will eat.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I got him to eat 2 (maybe three?) Bloodworms. I lost count hah. After that, he hung out by the waterline for a while but now he's back near the bottom. When I scared him by putting a bloodworm near him, he zoomed around the tank for a few moments before settling down enough to feed. So he has some energy but it comes in spurts.


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm getting a little more weight on him but his back is looking a little worse. I think it's due to that part of him staying out off water too long. It looks kind of dry? Like white areas. It's only where his back pokes out of the water when he's floating and no where else. I tried to take advantage of him being on his side and get some pictures of it but they're blurry. I also got him to eat a pellet today! And he's been greeting me every morning which he hasn't been well enough to do for weeks. I'm also a little worried about a return of finrot because in some lighting the regrowth looks black and in other lighting the regrowth looks vibrant blue. I just don't know. Still doing the water changes.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Are you still using Epsom? I would use 3tsp/gall . Not sure what to say about that dry spot, i actually can see it on the picture. I don't think it can cause an infection. Hmm i actually not sure at all. I guess it nothing you can do about it. Just keep eye on it. I think that despite him having all those problems , he is one happy guy that gets so much love!


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

I haven't used any epsom yet. The epsom was for the bloating but he's not bloated so I haven't seen reason to give him yet another treatment. I've been simply keeping up with water changes and dosing a teeny bit extra of the NovAqua because it says it has nutrients that benefit slime coat and I figure he could use that. [By extra I mean more like 28 drops instead of the 25 drops needed. Not anything significant]

I am happy to see a little more weight on him lately. I was getting to the point where I could see dips near his spine and those have almost completely filled out. I keep shining lights on him daily, both tank and flashlight at the same time to see the accurate color of his fins. That long strand of fin that was left over has fallen off, however, I believe I might have injured it when cupping him a couple days ago. There was an obvious injury to it and it drooped past this little line. So yeah I think it was my fault. I'm going to have to feed him some bloodworms in a little bit because he wouldn't take the pellet again.

As for Kirei, I think his heater might be malfunctioning. His temperature was in the mid-80s and it's set for 80... I turned the heater down further and I'll be keeping a very close watch on it. It's an older heater that was given to me by a friend, 100W. I've been pretty careful to unplug it during water changes and wait a few minutes for it to cool down before doing anything but I'm afraid that I might not have been as careful as I could have or that maybe it's too old. I hope not!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Epsom is very mild and less stressful than aquarium salt. Epsom usually recommended for fish with constipation, bouyancy problem, internal infection. Epsom also has antibacterial affect so would also help with his fins . 
Heaters , i set them for 78 but a few of them heat only up to 74*. I keep a few of my bettas in 74*. The heaters capacity for a bigger tank, so i thought it would overheat rather than bring the temperature down. But so far i have it for about 2 years and temperature is stable. I always unplug the heaters about 5 min before i do the water change. 
I am also very paranoid with all heaters and check them daily (3 times a day). I had one that overheated , and i had one that stopped working when the temp in the house at night was 65*. So i always check on them and can't wait until summer, when i just take them out.
It good that he is eating. I hope he will get better . I really think you should try Epsom . Just make sure it's unscented 100% Magnesium sulfate without any additives .


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Hmm yeah I still might do the epsom salt. I already bought it, 100% magnesium sulfate. I can always try a mild dose and see if it helps. I spend most of my time in the living room and the boys are on a bar counter between the living room and kitchen so I check on them constantly. I definitely don't need heaters in summer either. It gets way too hot haha.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

The same here. I would recommend to do even more water changes in the tanks due to the warmer water. It's more chance to get infection with a warmer water. I change my tanks more often during the summer,
Will wait for another update on guys. I really hope Chi will feel better


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## Lefitte (Oct 2, 2013)

Good news, bad news.

Good news:
I got my IAL today! Yaaay! Added some to the tanks already. I cut around the stem and threw that out, just to be safe.

Bad news: 
Chi definitely has finrot again. I see a couple of holes in the edges of his fins. 
Also, he's slightly pineconed! I heard this happening after epsom salt was added. I wonder if that could be the problem? That's the better of the two. I'm not sure what to do about that.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Is all his body pineconning or only the stomach?
Dropsy symptoms (pineconning ) can be localized. Like for example ,if he would be bloated then he might pineconeconing only on his stomach due to constipation or internal infection.
Pineconing (dropsy symptoms) can be due to the fluid retention in the body then all body will be pineconing. If you look from the top you will see it. In this situation kidneys it can't process the fluid,which lead to kidney failure . 
In both situations Epsom is helpful .Using epsom salt continuously can dehydrate the betta and draw fluid out of his body, so Epsom would not cause the dropsy symptom (pineconing) especially that you not using it for a long time.

Is he eating at all?


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