# Ammonia Poisoning



## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Alright, so unfortunately I'm pretty sure my little guy has picked up ammonia poisoning. Very similar symptoms to my last betta that died, ie: lethargic, silver around his gills, gasping, sinks to the bottom of the tank and has recently destroyed his fins that took over a year to NEARLY grow back.

Based on the previous battle I had with the old fish, I'm certain it's ammonia poisoning this time around as nothing else fits.

We've been trying to save him by doing water changes (started with a 50% day one, and 20% each day since) just trying to keep his water as clean as possible. He has a heater, it's a 5 gallon tank and he gets plenty of light during the day. We don't over feed him.

I've read a lot about ammonia poisoning but never about any possible cures. What I find odd is he showed no symptoms like these while in the bad water, but once we started with a 50% the symptoms appeared and have gotten worse.

With the silver around his gills I'm pretty certain he's reached the point of no return and it's only a matter of time, but I still want to try and at least make it a peaceful passing and ideally prevent him from passing. 

What should I do?


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## lvandert (Feb 23, 2012)

have you tried putting aq salt in the water? it'll help the gills absorb oxygen and if anything help him feel like he's not suffocating.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

How much should I use?


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## lvandert (Feb 23, 2012)

It should say how much on the box (dose for repairing fins and damaged scales).


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## Kenny G (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm not sure what water conditioner you are using but if its not Prime start using it immediately for ammonia poisoning. Here is an informative link.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

Let's hope your betta is not past the point of no return. 

Best of Luck......


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I don't think there is an actual cure for ammonia poisioning but he can bounce back from it depending on how much damage has been done. I have picked up a few from petstores that looked like they were gonna die before I got home but have bounced back with proper care...




> *Symptoms:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Lowering the pH of the water will provide immediate relief, as will a 50% water change (be sure to use water that is the same temperature as the aquarium). Several water changes within a short period of time may be required to drop the ammonia to below 1 ppm.
> 
> If the fish are in severe distress, the use of a chemical to neutralize the ammonia is recommended. Feedings should be restricted so that additional waste is reduced. In cases of very high ammonia levels, feedings should be discontinued for several days.
> 
> Because ammonia toxicity is linked to the pH, testing of both ammonia and pH levels are critical. Ammonia becomes increasingly toxic as the pH rises above 7.0. Because there are so many variables, there is no magic number to watch for. However, there are general guidelines to follow.


I have no idea what my PH is but when I have treated fish with ammonia poisioning thanks to poor pet shop care, i focused more on water changes. I would start out small and gradually work your way up to larger changes. You don't want to change the chemistry too much as that can do more damage then good. 

I also use aquarium salt and amquel plus as the conditioner. Prime does the same thing but amquel plus dosen't stink up the room like prime (think cat piss smell). If you use AQ salt, don't use it for more then 10 days. 

you also may want to pick up the liquid ammonia test kit that way you know for sure what you are dealing with. 

Do you have a filter? how often are your water changes?

when you say silver around the gills, do you mean like the silver "scar" this fish has?








I "think" that was caused by ammonia burning him as were the red gill covers and I think the missing fins were also burnt off - they were floating around in his cup >.< His ammonia tested at 8.0


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Good info up there ^ 

Oldfishlady made a great post once abut why fish get ammonia poisoning when transitioning from filthy conditions to clean ones - it's to do with the dirty water making its own adjustments to chemistry that turn ammonia into ammonium.... really not great for the fish at all, and very bad in the long term, but that's how bettas survive in those horrible little cups in stores, with ammonia of 8 - the filth is actually keeping them alive (though they are rotting slowly and prone to disease..).

The answer is to acclimate fish slowly when changing from dirty water to clean, adding a tiny bit of new water to dilute the old until the fish can adjust. A little AQ salt can help throw off the effects of nitrite and ammonia poisoning too, by clearing the toxins from its blood. Doing 100% water change, scrubbing the tank and generally making it clean prior to upping water changes thus seems like good sense also.

Fish don't 'pick up' ammonia poisoning, they get it from having to live in ammonia, which is usually to do with inadequate water changes. If you're changing the water regularly now, great - but as another poster has said, the damage caused may be permanent and your fish may never be "quite right" as a result. He may yet live a long life, though, so just keep him clean and give him good food so he can be the best he can be.

But with your next fish, do consider acclimating after purchase (if he's in a dirty cup) and keeping to a good water change schedule for the tank size. Also, an ammonia and nitrite test kit is very helpful for figuring out when changes are necessary. 


ETA: I'm not sure what's happening as far his past goes... from what you've said, I'm assuming you didn't know about water changes with your previous fish, and until recently this one too...

I'm sorry if I'm wrong. And if I am wrong, then perhaps you might want to look into the possibility of gill flukes, too. Ammonia is the obvious problem if he wasn't getting clean water -- if he was, then perhaps it's something else.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

does ur 5 gallon have a filter and is it cycled? did you do a weekly water change of 30% or more? if so, the chances of ammonia poisoning seems quite slim...
but if it isnt cycled....most likely your tank will need a 100% water change every week hopefully this information will help you in the future! and good luck to the poor fish


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Orsini, long time no see. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. 

You did the right thing by doing all the water changes. 99% of the time, water changes can reverse negative symptoms. It's that 1% where it doesn't work that baffles us.

Did you happen to test the water before or after he started showing his symptoms? If his tank stayed cycled and if you kept up on the water changes, I'm just not sure how he could get ammonia poisoning. There is a slight possibility it's not ammonia but nitrite or nitrate poisoning that's affecting him but there's also a possibility it's something else entirely. 

For now, I'd definitely recommend changing the water at least partially every other day and adding 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon. If you have live plants in his tank, you might actually want to remove him to a hospital tank for treatment, as salt kills plants. 

Is he bloated? Does he still eat? 

I'd also agree with Aus on gill flukes being a possibility. If so, AQ salt and frequent water changes could help cure that. You could also try treating him with General Cure to see if that relieves any of his symptoms.

I hope he pulls through. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I added a tbsp of AQS last night to his water. I believe it's actually a 2.5 gallon tank and I was never able to get it to cycle, and he absolutely hated the filter so I resorted to frequent water changes. 

Trying to answer all the questions.. I did weekly 50% water changes ( Sunday : 25% in the morning, 25% at night), I use Prime, I tested the water when I noticed his symptoms (after I returned from vacation) and noticed his ammonia level was high, his water was a bit murky and there were fuzzy things starting to grow inside the tank. I believe it had been about 3 weeks since he had a water change, so plenty of time for damage.

I cleaned the tank out, put him in new water at the same temp and have always used Prime. I've been adding some stress coat to hopefully help things a little.

We've removed everything from the tank except his cave which he's not using but didnt want to put him in a completely new environment so we lowered the water and installed a floating leaf so he can lay close to the surface.

I'm bringing him up to a new house a few hundred miles away which should have better lighting and lower ph levels. The ph levels in San Francisco are quite shockingly high, so I'm going to start adding in new water from here which is quite lower. About that... I'm assuming I should do it slowly so he can adjust... like 20% water changes? How will this coincide with the AQS treatments?

His gills are not red yet and he does still eat, but lays on his side all day long, gasps for water and races to the top for air and sinks back down. He WAS bloated when I returned so I fasted him for about a week and it vanished, that's about the only thing I've been able to cure since.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

If he is eating, that's always a good sign...

did you remove the filter? If so I don;t think you can get nitrite or nitrAte unless you have a filter running. 

But here is inf on nitrite poisioning anyways


> Nitrite poisoning follows closely on the heels of ammonia as a major killer of aquarium fish. Just when you think you are home free after losing half your fish to ammonia poisoning, the nitrites rise and put your fish at risk again. Anytime ammonia levels are elevated, elevated nitrites will soon follow. To avoid nitrite poisoning, test when setting up a new tank, when adding new fish to established an tank, when the filter fails due to power or mechanical failure, and when medicating sick fish.
> *Symptoms:*
> 
> Fish gasp for breath at the water surface
> ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Orsini, so all this happened while you were on vacation? That does make sense then that it could be ammonia poisoning. I know you wouldn't have let it happen if you had been there. Too bad we can't take our fish with us on vacation, huh?

At this point, the effects could go either way. He might recover or he might always be like this.  

If he has trouble rising to the surface to breathe, you can lower the water level as much as necessary to make it easier for him. You can continue with the AQ salt for up to 14 days. Its main effects will be to help him create slime coat, which will help to fight off infection. There is no way to actually treat ammonia poisoning, unfortunately. 

Keep his tank dim and quiet and continue with partial water changes as often as you feel necessary, replacing the AQ salt that you remove with each water change. So if you take out say, 1 gallon of water, replace 1 tsp of salt. Don't replace all the salt if you haven't taken it all out because the salt doesn't evaporate out of the water and so it would just accumulate to a toxic level. 

Good luck, Orsini, and keep us updated on how he's doing.


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## Pilot00 (Jul 24, 2012)

There is a product named amquel or somesuch that supposedly removes ammonia. Though i doubt that by now any would still persist on given the regular water changes.

Hows the little fellow doing?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Hi guys, he's so far shown 0 improvement. Is it at all possible he's dealing with something else, bacterial or fungal that I should attempt to treat? Running out of ideas =\


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If it's anything other than ammonia poisoning, it would be internal bacterial infection or gill flukes. If it's gill flukes, the AQ salt and water changes will take care of that. Unfortunately, without other symptoms there's no way to tell if he has an internal bacterial infection or not so it's very hard to treat him for that. Your best bet is to stick with the AQ salt. Try and keep his tank at about 80 F too. I really hope the little guy pulls through for you.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I've moved him to a much smaller hospital tank with a heater. Still doing the AQ salt but haven't seen any improvement yet. Hopefully he eventually comes around... if this is how his life will be it's pretty saddening.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I know. If, after 14 days of AQ salt, he hasn't shown any improvement whatsoever, we can try him on a broad-spectrum antibiotic as a shot in the dark. Will he eat?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

He still eats, gets all excited about it too. Seems normal for those few seconds.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he's eating, at least he has a will to live. I always worry when they stop eating. It could take him a while to recover. I imagine ammonia poisoning could be a lot like carbon monoxide poisoning so he might just need some time to regain his strength. Only time will tell. :/


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

he's now visibly worse. I tried treating him with lifeguard bacterial and no change. I'm going to attempt to drop the ph by ~2 to see if he at least feels a little better


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh no. Do you have any naturally dried oak leaves laying in your yard? If you do, you can crumble one into his tank until the water turns tea-colored. This releases tannins that can help them feel better. You can also use decaffeinated pure green tea but care has to be taken not to shock them. Placing a teabag in the tank and letting it steep for a few moments usually works best. The tea must be decaf and it can't have any extra flavorings (no jasmine green tea or lemon green tea etc).

Unfortunately, the effects of ammonia poisoning can be irreversible.


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## mursey (May 9, 2012)

Sakura are there any specific brands of green tea that you already know are safe to use, that are "pure"? Or do we just look for any kind of decaf regular green tea?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

http://www.celestialseasonings.com/products/green-teas/decaffeinated-green-tea

http://www.twiningsusashop.com/green-decaffeinated.html

I've also been told that Wal-Mart has its own decaf green tea that works well too. But both Celestial Seasonings and Twinings are readily available at most grocery stores. Other brands are Numi and Mighty Leaf but being organic, they may be more expensive. As a last resort, you can always use Republic of Tea but that's premium grade stuff and really expensive. :shock:

The key is not to use too much at once. It's best to soak the bag for a few moments in the tank rather than steep it separately and pour the tea in. 

But for tannins, by far the best product is Indian Almond Leaf. The elusive, hard to find Indian Almond Leaf. -___-


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## mursey (May 9, 2012)

Oh thanks! I was using peat granules but it made a mess in my tanks. I wanted to get Betta Spa, but it's sold out everywhere. Then I was thinking of getting IALs but the website I was told about had all these different grades of leaves and I wasn't sure what grade was ok, plus I have 5 tanks of bettas at the moment so the highest grade seemed a little pricey. I may try the green tea, I buy a lot of tea anyway, just not usually anything plain but I can definitely find some of those brands.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I've just setup a new 10 gallon tank and have considerably lowered the ph level (usual level is 7.6 out here, it's now around 6.9-7.0 ph) and I'm slowly adding in the new water into his hospital tank so he can get used to the difference. I'm hoping... this can help him breath easier and at least reduce some of his pain.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

He's enjoying the new tank, exploring every inch of it. Haven't seen this much energy in him in weeks. He still surfaces every 15~ seconds for air and sinks down if he stops swimming but he seems happier at face value.

I have noticed he's getting to have more silver around his face, not sure if it's an indication that he's getting worse or not but I thought I read it's due to not receiving enough oxygen. Does anyone know?


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Are you opt to trying out live plants?
When Spike got ammonia poisoning I added live plants to help in removing the toxins. 24 hrs later he was a complete turn around.

I know the live plants won't completely suck up the toxins. But they can help.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

A little AQ salt can help a fish with ammonia/nitrite poisoning to breathe easier. 

Rooibos tea is a popular choice for tannins. Try to get some ketapang (Indian Almond) leaves though (don't worry about the pricey grade blah, get what you can afford) as they have great medicinal properties that tea does not.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

For Indian Almond leaves, I suggest Amy's. I know she sells on ebay but she is in Asia so it may take 3 or so weeks to get the leaves. She does grade them but even her lower grade leaves are pretty nice. She has one set that has free shipping and I think they are C grade or C+, something like that. All the grade really means is that A leaves are big and whole, while the C leaves are not perfect - they may have holes or rips, stuff like that. It has nothing to do with how effective they are. 

Here is a link to one of her C grade auctions. When I order, I usually get 2 sets since it has free shipping :-D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amys-50-gra...675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6828dd1b
I have some Mopani wood in my tank that I think releases tannins too. I got it from petco in the reptile section


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> replacing the AQ salt that you remove with each water change. So if you take out say, 1 gallon of water, replace 1 tsp of salt. Don't replace all the salt if you haven't taken it all out because the salt doesn't evaporate out of the water and so it would just accumulate to a toxic level.


After X amount of days do I need to remove all of the salt from the tank? He's now in a 10 gallon tank and I've put 2 tablespoons of the salt in a corner so I can easily take it out.


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Orsini said:


> After X amount of days do I need to remove all of the salt from the tank? He's now in a 10 gallon tank and I've put 2 tablespoons of the salt in a corner so I can easily take it out.



I think you're supposed to be doing daily 100% water changes and adding new water with AQ salt. I think most users use this treatment for 14 days.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

*Current Symptoms:*
- Sinks. Lays on the bottom of the tank (on his side).
- Lethargic. Lays on his side unless he's exploring.
- Silver Near Gills. The area around his gills are getting more silver by the week.
- Loss of Color. His color is really starting to fade badly.
- Gasps. Every once in a while he'll open his mouth as wide as possible.
- Thrashed Fins. He's completely destroyed his fins. Looks absolutely nothing like my Avatar.

*Current Treatment:*
- Moved to new unfiltered 10 gallon tank. Will be doing 25% water changes every other day.
- Reduced pH level from 7.6 to 7.0.
- 2 Tablespoons of AQ Salt. Will remove all of the salt and reapply during water changes.

*Previous Betta's Symptoms (died from Ammonia Poisoning) that are missing:*
- Lack of Appetite.
- Red Gills.


Are we still at a consensus that this is Ammonia Poisoning? Is there ANY possibility it can be something else that I can treat for at the same time? It's driving me up the wall that I can't cure this little guy. He is at least 300x more active now that he is in his new tank but still shows all of his symptoms. It seems like he has plenty of energy in him, but is unable to exert it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ammonia poisoning can cause several secondary problems such as bacterial infections and parasitic infections. Overall, I'd say AQ salt is still the best choice because I have no way of telling if he has a bacterial problem (it would be internal). He isn't bloating or looking like he's retaining fluid, which are usual symptoms of internal bacterial problems. I can totally understand your frustration. It's awful not knowing how to help your buddy (been there so I know). But treating him with meds when we don't know what he has could just make him even worse. That's the heartbreaking problem with fish illness: so often we don't know how to treat them for lack of symptoms.  

If he's in a 10gal, you don't need to do 100% water changes every day. You can do 50% once or twice a week. Just keep careful track of how much you take out so you know how much to put back in.

The silver could be from ammonia burns. The opening of his mouth sounds an awful lot like the "yawning" that many fish do so it could be a natural thing and not related to his illness.

His fins most likely have a bit of rot and ammonia burn and that's why they're gone. Do you see any new growth at all? Is there any black edging? 

Also, the AQ salt can only be used for 14 days and I've lost track what day we're on now. :/


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