# Are pet store Bettas to old to breed?



## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Just wondering


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Most pet store fish are 4-6 months old. Fish can breed up to a year old and a little older if they are in good shape.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Fish don't go through menopause. They can breed as long as they are physically fit. As they age, females will produce eggs more slowly. Males may have fins too heavy for them to tend the nest (easily fixed with a fin trim). Fish of both sexes will heal more slowly from injuries.

The oldest fish that I have heard of breeding successfully was also the oldest betta I have heard of, period. He was nine years old.

Breeding is stressful and damaging to both partners and typically result in a shortened lifespan. Likelihood of death is going to go up as they age.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have a pair of three year old wild bettas giving me fry every week at the moment. They do have smaller spawns than species from the splendens complex (including Betta splendens), but it is definitely possible for older fish to successfully breed. 

My fish are permanently on a combination of live/frozen foods, which tends to keep them in breeding condition year round. If I was working with an older pair of fish I would definitely place a lot more importance on careful conditioning/preparation. I don't think older fish tend to bounce back from breeding as quickly as younger fish do.


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## nympxzie (Oct 2, 2014)

Pet store bettas have unknown genetics and aren't something you really want to breed. They might be old enough but personally I think it's asking for some questionably health fry.


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## Ganggreenkhan (Jul 15, 2015)

I refuse to buy at the pet store because of the condition of their betta's. Only time I ever breed was with pet store fish, never again. They might be good for learning the process but that's it.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Depends on the pet store fish. Quite frankly, you are rarely able to know the genetics of any fish bought on Aquabid, either. Good luck finding out their heritage with a language barrier and occasionally doctored photos. Some pet store fish are culls from good breeders. Others are randomly bred in large quantities specifically for pet stores.

You can find some very good fish at pet stores if you are patient. Of course, if the pet stores in your area take poor care of their fish, they should not get your business anyway.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

^+1. All my breeders are pet store bought. My big red halfmoon i bought from my lfs, i got him critiqued here a few days ago and his only flaw was a long anal fin. So yes you can DEFINITELY breed petstore bettas, and they can be good quality too. Just have to know where to look


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I'm not convinced that you'll ever see a 6-month old Betta in a petstore, or even a 4-month old one. Breeders want to ship them as soon as they can sex them and see their color. Most petstore fish are >3-months old. And they don't last a lot longer than that in a store -- as we all know.

There are a multitude of reasons not to breed petstore fish. Ask or search in the _breeders_ sub-forum. Or check some of the _Similar Threads_ just below these posts ... down there V


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

Hally, with all due respect, the Halfmoon we all know and love, came from pet store veiltails. edit: What I'm trying to say is, you can't judge a book by its cover


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think many pet store fish are of low quality and I personally would not use them as breeding stock. However, this does not mean _all_ pet store fish are of low quality. In the same vein, there are many 'pretty' fish on AB, which have fairly significant form or colour faults. Simply because a betta was produced by a breeder in Thailand, does not mean it is automatically a show or breeding quality fish. 

IMO, the best way to choose a quality fish whether from AB or your local pet store, is to familiarise yourself with the individual standards for each tail type, and work from that.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

They were bred up from Plakats for larger fins and more ray branching by conscientious, clever breeders who knew what they were doing and did it exquisitely. 

While you can't judge a book, you can judge a Betta. There is a well-developed canon, criteria by which they can be evaluated. Breeding art and strategy is based on this and customer demand.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

I know about the criteria. I've handwritten three files worth of the stuff. And into my third year of breeding too. I don't have the benefit of importing bettas so I have to work with what I've got. And i don't buy any pretty betta I see, I look for some with decent form.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

sharkettelaw1 said:


> ... I don't have the benefit of importing bettas so I have to work with what I've got....


You have my sympathies.

There are many breeders on this list and other local breeders online.


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## Ganggreenkhan (Jul 15, 2015)

When I bread petstore fish it took about three months of going to every petstore in the area 2 or 3 times a week. I had a route and a scheduled. It wasn't worth the effort.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

HM were created with an incredible amount of meticulous effort, and it is a misnomer to state that they were created "from pet store fish." That belittles the time, effort, careful study and nurturing of the mutation that caused excess branching. That makes it seem easy ... as though it was oh, a few years of work or so. It took decades to create the modern halfmoon.

That does not mean that good fish cannot be created from pet store lines. A lot of the work has been done for you. But you need to be very careful what you choose to breed. I breed VT, and I scour the pet shops looking for decent fish. Maybe one out of fifty catches my attention. Less than that are good for breeding.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Ganggreenkhan said:


> When I bread petstore fish it took about three months of going to every petstore in the area 2 or 3 times a week. I had a route and a scheduled. It wasn't worth the effort.


I have to, and I agree ... it is a crazy amount of effort. Happily, pet store hopping is fun for me.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

I agree. And I too go to every shop I can find. Even then, I don't just buy, I look first. It took me 5 years to find ONE black veiltail. And one year to find a black double tail that was relatively good quality. That is why I was so angry when he died because I left him in the care of someone for a WEEK and they killed him. And proceeded to lose all my other bettas from a major power outage but I did manage to find some really good quality halfmoons from my lfs that ended up having velvet. I'm still keeping them in quarantine of course. But yes, I get what you're saying. I'm picky about my breeders, and I only make exceptions for black because its incredibly rare here, even black veils. It's not like I haven't succeeded in the past, I have, I just ran into a lot of bad luck. Including my last couple of spawns ending up being predominantly females. Female plakats that were purple x.x not that I'm complaining but I just haven't uploaded pics on here because it breaks my heart to see what I had and lost. It's crazy. So I'm not breeding for the sake of breeding, but with a purpose ^.^


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't understand why some are against breeding pet store fish. As long as you know what to look for, they often or should anyway, carry some decent form to work with. Many of these are rejects of decent breeding. 

Many AB and eBay fish are of poor quality. So if you don't learn about form, you might get pet store quality.

You can't breed HM using puppy mill system. Breeders must choose the pair. Otherwise they won't produce perfect "D" shaped 180* caudal. Yes you won't know their genetic background. But a pair of well formed fish will most probably produce nice fry, regardless of genetic background. And you can always work on color later on, after achieving the desired form.

Just stay away from roses, and you should be fine - won't produce deformed fry. If you're worried, don't line breed them - you don't know how often they've been inbred. 

And personally, I love spending time at the fish store. I used to go there a lot. I would even travel 60km or more just to make sure I'm getting an unrelated fish.


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## savagebeautymnl (Apr 16, 2015)

Great insight here. For all the reasons stated above, I myself won't be breeding pet store bettas again. Too many unknown factors. 

If you can find a breeder within a manageable distance, why not check them out? You could get advice not only on the pair's genetics, but also about the water conditions/food/environment they're used to. That way, you can reduce their stress from the move, and they'll be in better condition to breed.


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

The thing I will never understand about the don't breed petstore fish is that the attitude in of itself assumes that all breeders, especially new or first-timers, are going to instantly confident enough to breed a pair of fish that cost them upwards of 50, 60 even hundreds of dollars to get to them. When these fish are NOTORIOUS for ripping each other apart and killing each other. It also assumes that someone (who may have the time and desire and money for a breeding setup) has the mindset to stomach possibly throwing away that money when their breeding pair kills each other.

I'm with indjo, if you know what you're looking at or for, why does it matter where they came from? AB will not always have top quality fish. I have seen x-factors, deformities abound, and lots of bad form that i'd never throw a dollar at much less 60+. Everyone acts as though aquabid and other sites with international breeders are the end-all place to get your breeders.

I understand the mindset of discouraging irresponsible breeding but, it can happen with AB fish too?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

There are advantages to using both breeder and LFS bettas. With a breeder, you've got a know genetic background and (hopefully) a multi-generational inbred line. That really cuts down on the amount of variation you get in a spawn. I'm more picky about the lineage of a betta than the actual fish itself. A good show fish is a one in a million chance of the perfect genetics coming together. A good breeder carries and passes on 90% good genetics to their offspring. 

As for LFS betta, there are two types. The first are mutts or sports from random breeding of two fish. I wouldn't use them for breeding stock *UNLESS* they had a new mutation or trait that I was interested in developing. The second are early culls from good breeders and fish that fail to sell on AB. The early culls have flaws, but hey, they're already in the US and they're from good breeding stock. SCORE! The fish that fail to sell on AB? They're not just chucked into the trash; they're sent to fish consolidators overseas and sold in bulk to aquarium suppliers here in the US (Segrest is a big one) and from there, they end up at your LFS/LPS. Admittedly, finding these are one in hundreds and takes some serious gas mileage. But who needs an excuse to go spend time in fish stores?


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