# Please help me save out HM's tail



## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

So we've had My sons' fish since last January so almost a year. He lives in a 2.5gal cycled tank. I have an API master and it's always 0 0 10-20-I can't tell the difference between the two orange shades. His top and bottom rays were always messy/bent but being a halfmoon they were intact. His tail was perfect until now. All of the sudden his tail is splitting, one of the splits being close to his body and a few bloody spots on the slit. He has two silk plants a moo rock cave and everything passed the pantyhose test. Why is this happening in clean water? He's very active, interactive and we keep him company a bunch every day. He's definitely not stressed but his tail is sad. I am using prime and since the big split I started addding fish protector and acurel body guard rx at each water change which I currently do every other day 25-30%(before I did once in 5 days to a week). Please help this long time lurker first time poster! Thanks in advance!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Does it look like chunks have been removed in places? If you could post a photo of his tail edges it would help. If he's tail biting, there's really no known reason; only a lot of theories.

Wish I could be more help but it sounds as if you are doing everything possible for him. He may stop biting; I had one that did. Or he may sporadically bite. But like I said, a photo of the edges of his caudal.

And, welcome to the Forum. Sorry your first post had to be in this section. :-(


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Does it look like chunks have been removed in places? If you could post a photo of his tail edges it would help. If he's tail biting, there's really no known reason; only a lot of theories.
> 
> Wish I could be more help but it sounds as if you are doing everything possible for him. He may stop biting; I had one that did. Or he may sporadically bite. But like I said, a photo of the edges of his caudal.
> 
> And, welcome to the Forum. Sorry your first post had to be in this section. :-(


Thank you for answering me so quickly! Even with the long somewhat bloody split you think it's biting? Is it typical for bettas to start biting after almost a year? Nothing's changed in his tank. Sorry for bad pics-he never sits still


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Actually he's a Double Tail, not a Halfmooon. So he's going to naturally have that split in his tail but yes, he might have bitten it further. And yes, they can bite at any point.

I'm more concerned about the color around the split, can you shine a flashlight behind the camera into the tank so that it illuminates his front and get a few pictures like that? Just want to make sure that rot hasn't set in.

For now, do a good sized water change, that will help keep the bad bacteria away if you keep his tank clean.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Actually he's a Double Tail, not a Halfmooon. So he's going to naturally have that split in his tail but yes, he might have bitten it further. And yes, they can bite at any point.
> 
> I'm more concerned about the color around the split, can you shine a flashlight behind the camera into the tank so that it illuminates his front and get a few pictures like that? Just want to make sure that rot hasn't set in.
> 
> For now, do a good sized water change, that will help keep the bad bacteria away if you keep his tank clean.


What do you mean by big I do 25-30% every other day. Also when he fans his fins are a full circle he was sold to me as a twin tail HM and that split wasn't like that. This what he looked like last spring before this tail incident.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Do one that's like a 50% or more.

Ah, yes, he is a Double Tail Halfmoon but there is a difference between just a regular HM and a DT. HM does not have two lobes where a Double Tail does. Some double tails don't reach 180 degree's that a HM will so because his tail does reach 180 degree's he is also HM. He does have a split but it's overlapping itself so you can't see it as well.

I mean a picture of him now with light from the front please.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Do one that's like a 50% or more.
> 
> Ah, yes, he is a Double Tail Halfmoon but there is a difference between just a regular HM and a DT. HM does not have two lobes where a Double Tail does. Some double tails don't reach 180 degree's that a HM will so because his tail does reach 180 degree's he is also HM. He does have a split but it's overlapping itself so you can't see it as well.
> 
> I mean a picture of him now with light from the front please.


Here's a pic. He moves around a lot so I can't get a good one. The base of the split became thicker (scale-y) and I can see a couple of whitish rays hoping growth. Not seeing much more as far as improvement goes. Again thank you so much!


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Also I wanted you to see a before pic. Here's another from today


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Poor boy, he has very bad fin rot. This type generally is extremely difficult to get rid of, I won't lie to you. If you can get him on antibiotics right away, it may help. If he's still eating perhaps you can get him on KanaPlex (Kanamycin) and soak his food in it for a few minutes before you feed it to him. It's already reached his body so I'm not sure if it will honestly help or not but clearly, it's worth a try. You can also try Maracyn II (not MaracynPlus) if that doesn't work then you can move to a different antibiotic group like Furan-2.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Wow seriously? How is that possible in water that never had nitrites nor ammonia? Will the antibiotics mess up my cycle? I have no experience as far as medicating. I do keep half of an IA leaf in his tank. He doesn't behave ill at all. Bubble nesting, eating more due to high temps never ever clamped or inactive except while napping flaring following fingers even developing color since he seemed to be young when we got him. I'm so worried. It makes me so mad when people keep healthy betta's in 'bad'conditions and I do everything right and this happens.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It doesn't matter, it's not just nitrites or ammonia that can effect them badly, the total dissolved solids also play a role and then bacteria is always in the water no matter what; waiting for an opportunity to jump at your fish. 

I know the feeling, I've had plenty of fish die for random reasons even though they are in fully planted and cycled tanks, it just happens. But would you rather know that you kept your fish in proper conditions even though they may die a little early or would you rather have a lethargic fish that maybe lives and extra year or two sitting in a little cold bowl? I know it's not nice and it sucks but we at least know we took care of our fish and gave them the best possible life we could.

Onto medicating, yes, most of them will ruin your cycle so if you have a 1 gallon or something laying around to use, that would be best to use in the time being. You can use clean-never used plastic food-ware or even a vase in this case would be fine if it's big enough for easy cleaning, just anything that's around a gallon or two would work for this purpose since it's not permanent.

Maracyn II and Furan-2 come in packages for dosing 10 gallon tanks, you can do a few things to split up the dosing; either you can literally take out the powder to separate in 10 piles roughly and baggie up each little pile for 1 gallon doses. You can also take 1 cup of water and pour the packet into that, one cup of water has 48 teaspoons in it roughly speaking, that divided into 10 will give you 4.8 so you can use 5 teaspoons of that cup for each gallon of water (if I've done my math correctly). You can keep that cup of water aside for the other dosings.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks the cup/teaspoon trick sounds doable but I'm so afraid I will mess up and it'll make him worse since he's acting very healthy now. This has been going on for about a month now. Is it possible that he'll get better just with water changes since it's been so long and he's still not acting sick?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Unfortunately no, it's a bacterial infection just the same as we'd get; it's not going anywhere except infecting him more unless you get antibiotics to help. As I mentioned before, it's already at his body and once it hits that point, it's very difficult to cure if possible at all.

I've seen this type of fin rot and so far, none of the fish that have had it, have made it :-(


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Sorry I'm just confused how he's active as he's ever been if he's dying. It's hard to comprehend.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I know. So he still has the infection but it doesn't mean that he's dying just yet, I'm just saying that this usually leads to death because so far from what I've experienced and seen, none of it has been cured with any antibiotic we throw at it. I've seen KanaPlex used, Triple Sulfa, Furan-2, pretty much most of the usual antibiotics and so far nothing so I have a feeling it's an antibiotic-resistant bacterial infection. It's still worth a shot to hit it with meds though just in case yours may not be resistant just yet.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

So my camera is obviously craptastic so no photo, but I see some transparent growth at the bottom of the split where the newly growing rays are. Could new growth be happening at the same time? It seems contradictory, ykwim? I just don't see growth on the tips but they haven't changed color. Also the base of his tail where the split is has hardened with new scales so is it possible it's not affecting his body?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's not new growth where the blackened parts are, that would be a mild fungus or slime coat shedding off him. There could be other parts on his tail that are growing but where that split and blackened parts are, nothing will grow out from there until the infection is gone.

Those hardened scales are part of the infected area so yes, unfortunately, it is effecting his body though we may not see direct results just yet


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Just to clarify, the dark area around the split is blue as are the hardened scales which are kind of a pearl blue. This is his coloring-transparent/pink with blue marbling coming in more as he's aging. Parts of the split's edge are bloody which red+blue makes a burgundy/brown. There is no black. I actually see new rays and a bit of webbin all along and inside the split as if it's filling in from the inside. I just don't see much improvement on the tattered parts of his tail (along the 'circle').


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Oh and the tattered parts aren't black either just blue and transparent-his coloring.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes I know, it's black on the inside with irid on top.

Here are other examples of Betta's having this:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=471385&highlight=kanaplex

And an older one:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=357138&highlight=kanaplex


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm saying ther is no black. The dark part is blue which is his coloring. Not a black spot on him.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The dark blue is not part of his coloring, that is all infection. It only looks blue because of the lighting, in reality the inner part is black with a thin blue iridescent layer on top of it.

EDIT: Here's another thread I found with two of our older more prominent members from back in the day:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=77102


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Ok thanks for your time I really do appreciate your time for the past two days. I'm gonna continue water changes daily probably with kordon and I'll add garlic and hope he continues growing rays webbing. If not I'll start mere as you've suggested. I'll update for reference. I'm worried the mess will do more harm than good since he's doing well. I was just wondering when I could expect the outer edge to start filling in. Also with so many water changes the Indian almond leaf cannot manage to tint water-tannin is would be nice :/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Did you read the threads that I gave you? It's not going to grow where those dark blue parts are. I really do urge you to start with Maracyn II immediately in hopes to save him from the advanced rot.

You can make a tea out of the leaf instead of using it in his tank. You can chop a half leaf or whole leaf and put it into a mesh baggie to soak in some boiling water. Let the water cool, take out the leaves and use that after you do your water changes to give him back the minor antimicrobial effects of the tannins.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm telling you no black (lighting is white) and I see five 1-3mm rays with webbing filling in the split. All along the split I see growth as well. Thanks for the tea tip.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

^seconding lil's diagnosis. 

The dark edges on split in his fins is dead, necrotic tissue. The opaque region on the fleshy base of his tail is the start of body rot. These two changes aren't visible on his healthy photo and are well known symptoms of a severe bacterial infection. This has passed beyond the ability of natural remedies/immune response and require antibiotics for treatment. 

Currently, he has a localized infection, but the base of the tail is rich in blood vessels. Once the infection gets into the blood stream and becomes systemic, to put it bluntly, small fish like betta rarely recover.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I am so sorry that you guys are so stuck on black and unwilling to listen. The blue is part of his coloring. The healthy pic was almost a year go and he has darkened up quite a bit since than. If you look at the rest to his fins the have all gotten darker and less transparent. His lips did as well as have a bunch of his scales. Now I'm sorry I even wasted all of our time.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

What worries me about your boy is how the lobes easily crossed a year ago (Post #5) and how the lobes have an obvious gap/division now (Posts #7 & #8). Can he still get the lobes to cross? Not sure that's the right word. I'm not certain a Betta can bite that close to the body. All my fin-nipper have just nipped the edges. While fin rot is most often indicated by black; sometimes fins can turn brownish or bloody.

If you don't want to do other meds you can try aquarium salt. Because you have to do 100% water changes every day I would put him in a QT tank and not treat his actual aquarium. You can do one of two things: Use a smaller container that you can tape or hang in his aquarium so he doesn't lose heat or put his heater in the smaller tank. 

Treat with 1 teaspoon aquarium salt per gallon for 10 days and no more. Dissolve the salt in a cup of warm water and make sure it's completely dissolved or it will burn. You can up the dose to 2 teaspoons per gallon if you don't think one teaspoon is doing him any good.

You don't want to continue aquarium salt for more than 10 days or so as it can damage his kidneys.

Several things can cause fin rot: High Nitrate levels (over 10) even if Ammonia and Nitrites are at 0 and damage from biting or some other cause. And, as I said earlier, fins can be bloody instead of black when fin rot is present.

Your boy's fins may not have black edges but he could still have fin rot brought on by tail biting. I certainly hope the aquarium salt treatment helps. But if it doesn't, I would look into an antibiotic that treats gram-negative bacteria. You can use a QT tank for that so as to not ruin the cycle in his aquarium.

Good luck.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Thank you so much for understanding! I'm really only trying to help my fish. I'm worried the mess will weaken his obviously compromised immunity as happens with other living things. I'm definitely seeing new rays growing out of the v part of the split as if it's filling in from the outside which should be impossible with necrotic tissue. Right?


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Unless parasites/fungus looks like pointy needles that is.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What you see coming out of the dead part is most likely a secondary fungal infection, it's normal to see that on dead tissue.

I do have to respectfully disagree with Russell on the AQ salt, it won't touch the dead tissue at all at this point. It would help an open wound but dead tissue is pretty much anything but open. You can use AQ salt in a 1 teaspoon per 5 gallon for a preventative measure, it may help more infection but you do still need antibiotics to get rid of the bacteria that are effecting your boy right now.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I made a big mistake with salt last week I used the amount you said but didn't do 100% changes (conflicting info). Instead, I let him marinade for 2-3 days and then did 25-30% changes to remove. Started seeing growth after salt was decreased. Would it be ok to repeat using your method?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Nevermind. ;-)


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Nevermind. ;-)


Never mind the salt?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

No, I'm sorry; it's late for me and I'm not firing on all cylinders. I realized I was repeating myself.

I don't disagree with Lilnaugrim about the antibiotics but as you are hesitant to use them because you fear your boy's immune system might be further compromised the second-best option is the salt. An alternative would be 30-minute salt baths but I'll have to look up the ratio.

It's really difficult when a fish doesn't exhibit "normal" symptoms or multiple symptoms, isn't it?


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Yeah he seems so happy other than the missing parts of the tail. I damage is massive but he should be fazed by it if it was killing him, no? The baths sound good if you could help it would be worth a try.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

"For salt baths it's 1 tsp per gal or 2 tsp/gal if needed. Duration is 30 minutes, give or take a few minutes. Bath water should never go back into the tank so net your Betta to return him to the tank. 

"For the actual bath water you can take the water out of his tank and use that for the bath water so that it's already close to his normal water parameters. Addition of Methelyne Blue may be used as well to help regulate osmosis in the cells."

You could take out half a gallon and from that a cup in which to dissolve the salt. Heat the cup in the microwave to dissolve the salt and return that to the half-gallon. Fill the container you're floating in the tank. When temperatures are even, add your Betta. After 30 minutes pour him into a net and release back into the tank. Treatment is for seven days. 

Keep us posted.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Instead of microwaving the cup and salt you can actually just use tank water in a small cup and stir it around until all the crystals are dissolved, that way the water doesn't heat up from the microwave


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Thank you, ma'm. I haven't dissolved salt is so long I couldn't remember if it would disolve without heating or not. ;-)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Np! It does create heat when dissolving which is why it's important to dissolve it first, otherwise you could accidentally burn the fish


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Could I use the m. blue in conjunction with salt in the bath? If so is it readily available? Also if I use it could I add a shower cup in between the bath and tank in order to prevent the blue from entering aquarium?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Ivana13 said:


> Could I use the m. blue in conjunction with salt in the bath? If so is it readily available? Also if I use it could I add a shower cup in between the bath and tank in order to prevent the blue from entering aquarium?


I have attached a plastic container to the side of my tank with a big clip like you use for chips. You can use m. blue with the salt water bath. Not sure how it would leak into the tank? You don't need to float your Betta in in the full half-gallon. You can use a small plastic container and only fill it 2" or 3" deep...enough to cover him and then a bit.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can find Meth Blue at most pet shops, though not all the big chain stores carry it so you may have to call around to see who has it in stock, but it's usually readily available, it all depends on where you live too.

A shower cup? Is that like the little shower caddy things that have the holes in it for draining? You could use that, just make sure to get him into the tank so he's not just flopping around too long ^_^ But yeah, that might be better then netting since sometimes they can get stuck in netting and cause further damage to their fins too.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I just meant dipping him into a clean bowl of tank water before returning to his tank in order to wash everything off him. Still trying to find m. Blue. Thanks ladies for putting up with me


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah, yes, that would work fine  You can "swish" him in a clean cup of water when you net him, that will get most of the residue off.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Ah, yes, that would work fine  You can "swish" him in a clean cup of water when you net him, that will get most of the residue off.


Thanks! Still can't find m. Blue though and I live in Philadelphia :/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's a shame, do you have any small stores? Have you looked at the big stores or only the big stores? There should definitely be something around your area since it's kind of a big place lol. If you are comfortable with it, you could try ordering it online, it will take a few days to get to you but it may be better than nothing. I like to keep Meth Blue on hand anyway since it is very useful in the hobby.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I found it! Can I just follow the dosage from the box or reduce for betta? Will prime interact with it or should I buy water?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You actually want to double it for a bath, it won't harm him at all, I do promise that! And no, Prime doesn't react with anything so you're all set with that ^_^


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> You actually want to double it for a bath, it won't harm him at all, I do promise that! And no, Prime doesn't react with anything so you're all set with that ^_^


Your post came after I administered so: my bottle of MB only had tank or dip directions so I chose dip. I only used a cup of water and bent my net at a 90 degree angle so I could lover him in and lift him out without netting twice. I rinsed him in the water I removed at his change and a good thing I added this step. It was 50ppm for 10 seconds this was reaallly blue-not see through at all kind of thick looking but not really thick, you know. I also added salt to this at 1 tbs per liter which is a veerry high dose but he was only there for 10 seconds. Prime actually renders mb inactive so I used warm RO water to get the full benefit. I just wonder if longer baths at lesser concentrations would be better or not. It also doesn't say how long to do this for. I also wonder if I should add fish protector to this MB salt concoction since it helps draw medicine to body? He took it like a champ and even ate like a pig afterward. I tried giving him some of his pellets that were sitting in mashed garlic and he spit them out. He waited until they sat in this tank for a bit so the garlic dissipates and ate them off the floor. Silly boy, I thought fish loved garlic. Maybe I did it wrong? How long should they soak? Again, thank you all for your time!


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Btw, I was so scard doing this praying i don't kill him, shaking and everything. So happy he's ok! Now if his fin would kindly heal...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

A bath is supposed to be 30 minutes as Russell pointed out ^_^ Dip is fine as well for just the MB but it won't give the salt any time to actually do anything for him, even if it is a higher dose. Try not to use too much salt though, keep it around 1 tsp per gallon. Too much salt can cause the kidney's to prematurely shut down. Even holistic medicine dosings need to be done a certain way. The salt and MB won't heal his fins at all or get rid of all the bacteria though.

Glad he took it well, some fish are very dramatic and don't take baths or dips well at all unfortunately. Glad he ate too. It should be soaked in garlic juice for a minute or two. If you're using NLS though it already has garlic in it. Sorry, I don't remember which food you were using. Either way, if he's still eating then he doesn't necessarily need the garlic, it's just a nice additive  but if you want to continue using it, that's fine too.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I did quite a bit of research on these dips and the salt has to be a part of it since a freshwater fish is being treated. For saltwater fish the salinity would be greatly reduced for the same effect. This is done because the pathogens are more sensitive to these sudden salinity changes than the fish which ultimately ends up killing them. 1tbsp per gallon up to 10 minutes so he should be fine for 10 seconds. Mb dyes dead tissue so it is a good diagnostic tool to figure out dead vs healthy tissue but my boy is already blue where the issue is so it didn't work. At least I know the ratty fin area is healthy since it didn't dye the clear areas. I will do this every day for about a week and if I don't see much improvement I'll follow your advice for antibiotics. The links you sent me didn't make me feel good about the treatment since the fish seemed to go through a couple of meds before dying pretty quickly so I wanted to try something different. Overuse of antibiotics lead to mrsa in humans and I see it used soooo much for fish which is why it doesn't work. I hope I won't have to try and find out. I' just kicking myself for not reaching out as soon as it happened


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

So after taking the night to process since I thought fin rot was something to be had in un unmaintained tank which his was not, I contacted lil and she's been kindly helping along the way. But it's finals and I'll try here now as well. I've been doing m. Blue dips and daily water changes and kanaplex arrived yesterday. He ate the kanaplex soaked pellets but since the directions are for a tablespoon of food I eyeballed. Spkinkled powder onto moistened pellets. Is this ok ? Should I also dose the tank as well? Or perhaps just tank? Thanks in advance! We love this little guy so much!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hi Ivana

Eyeballing is OK; you can also cut the directions down to 1/3 of a tablespoon (which equals 1 teaspoon) and refrigerate the remainder of the medicated food for later feedings. (Just let them warm up to room temp before feeding him.) 

Personally, I would dose the tank in addition to the food. No one knows how well kanamycin is taken up through the gut in fish, but in humans, it is very inefficient. (Basically for humans, there is no way to get a therapeutic level of kanamycin in the blood serum through oral dosing; pills will however clean out the bacteria in the gastrointestinal track very well.) For fish, kanamycin is readily absorbed through the skin and gills into the blood, so to be on the safe side, I suggest dosing both. You will not overdose kanamycin by using a double dose, but I would not double the recommended treatment time (as in double dosing for six treatments instead of three treatments).


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks! Just to recap:
Madicated food 2x daily (how long?)
Add a dose to tank very other day 3 times 6 days total (how do I repeat if needed?
25% water change before a new dose of med so evey other day
Remove fish for daily meth blue and salt diode this correct?
I have stability. Should I add this to tank and when to help my biological filter while medicating? Do I need carbon afterward or are just waterchanges ok?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Medicated food 2x daily for 6 days while adding a dose to the water every other day for a total of three water doses in six days with a water change as directed.

Once a day, dip in methylene blue + salt.

24h after the final dose of kanamycin in the water, do a 50%-75% water change to dilute out the kanamycin. Fresh activated carbon will also remove kanamycin from the water as well, can be used in addition to the water change if desired. Stability can be added at this point.

Best of luck!


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

im am by no means an expert but i think maybe what happened was after he bit or ruined his tail maybe it got infected because it is kind of like an open wound and that set in fin rot and now body rot.  good luck with your boy


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

You guys rock! I have a feeling this might be the most informative post on betta fin rot treatment ever. I just pray this works!


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

fingers crossed  he is a gorgeous boy btw hope he makes it


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

plz update us later


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks for popping in Zhylis! Always a great help ^_^


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Nova betta said:


> fingers crossed  he is a gorgeous boy btw hope he makes it


Thanks I do too!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Thanks for popping in Zhylis! Always a great help ^_^


No prob! December is a crazy month all around >.<
Can it be January now?


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

So I know I must sound dense but I seem to think that fish illness and treatment is serious business and should be handled by pros which I am certainly not. I just realized you recommend adding stability after treatment but I already added a dose 12 hours after kanaplex. Will this impact it's effectiveness? Or will it actually help to add it in hopes of saving the cycle for easier recovery? 
He's doing great btw. Eating medicated pellets off my finger but quickly gets wise to my netting tricks for his daily dip. The woes of having a smart fish


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Lure him into a cup or net with thawed frozen bloodworms. That's the only time he gets them.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

That worked great the first time next time he waits for them to sink from the bottom. I can see his eye following the net...what jerk came up with white nets? Any thoughts on stability? Will it do harm since I already dosed?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Accidentally dosing Stability won't harm him. I personally wouldn't add it until after the antibiotics are out of the tank though, since the antibiotics may kill off some of the bacteria.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

So I gave him the second dose of kanaplex and the last one is tomorrow tight. Twice daily kanaplex food (4-5 pellets) and daily mb+salt dips. IAL tea in his water. He's looking better but nothing dramatic's changed. Water change Thursday Friday and then what? Another dose? Daily water changes? Not sure what to look for. He's acting normally just hangs out on his betta leaf more but still active. Also I got some floating plants free at my LFs but he didn't know what it was. Any ideas? They are just sitting in my big wine glass now since I'm medicating and there were baby snails in the tank. How long before they're safe to put in? Thanks for all your help!


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

And the plant


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

He's looking a bit better, keep on doing what you have been doing; kanaplex twice in food and then the baths.

Looks like Minima Salvinia


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Tomorrow night is his last dip (10 total) and his last kanaplex dose to tank (3 total) and food. are you saying to repeat everything? Tank dose and food? The net really stresses him out so I would like for him to be done with those. Any idea when I could safely put the plants in his tank?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, repeat everything. You can do baths every other day instead to reduce stress for him.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yes, repeat everything. You can do baths every other day instead to reduce stress for him.


Ok just making sure since zhylis? wrote earlier that I shouldn't repeat both food and tank dose since I'm already doubling by doing both. A couple of days ago I started seeing these tiny white 'pearls' in a straight line where his rays were. Are these new ones growing? 
And the plant? Should I leave it out until the meds are out? I'm worried it'll die since it's just been sitting in tap water and no nutrients for over a week. A better way to store it in the meantime perhaps?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's up to you, I know it's safe to go again with KanaPlex. If you don't feel safe doing it with the food then you can just use it in the water or the other way since it would be more effective if he ate it.

I'd have to see a close up picture if I could say anything about the rays growing back or not.

And the plant should be alright in the tank with the meds, it will most likely melt a little bit but it should be fine over all.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I trust you lil you have been an immense help; I just wanted to make sure it's ok since he's more sluggish since the meds. If you were to choose, would you drop the MB dips or tank kanaplex dose? Or keep all three even though he's getting sluggish? Hopefully tomorrow's water change will perk him up. My camera is not great so I doubt I can get a pic. I'll try in the morning. 
Is 9 days of quarantine enough for the plants? I don't want any nasties from the lfs.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah, didn't know he was sluggish. I'd drop the MB dips for now and continue with the antibiotics.

Lol, I don't even QT plants ever but no worries. Is there anything in particular you're trying to keep out by QT'ing the plants? Anything look bad at the store? Just all depends on what you saw in the store for how long they'd be QT'd.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Ah, didn't know he was sluggish. I'd drop the MB dips for now and continue with the antibiotics.
> 
> Lol, I don't even QT plants ever but no worries. Is there anything in particular you're trying to keep out by QT'ing the plants? Anything look bad at the store? Just all depends on what you saw in the store for how long they'd be QT'd.


While waiting for your reply I called seachem twice and they both told me since I used both food and tank to stop everything from tomorrow since it's getting a bit better and more importantly not getting worse. If he starts again to start meds after 3-7 days if at all due to kidney damage:/ I want to cry now I don't know what to do. You have the experience and they make the stuff. Whose advice should I follow...

The plant was in a tank with hundreds of tiny snails and the lfs doesn't take great care of their fish either so I'm worried about everything.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Aww I'm sorry. If you feel that he can't take the meds then it's fine to stop and just watch him for a while. 

As for the plants, keep them in QT for another week-ish or just 14 days in total. You can actually suck up his poop with a turkey baster and put that in the glass, that will give them some nutrients at least so they should be just fine  The tiny snails (Bladder Snails) won't become a problem unless you over feed the tank, which you don't so you may still have a few but nothing like what they would have


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I didn't 't even think about the poop-you have the best ideas! I haven't seen anything in the glass so maybe they are clean. 
Now meds: he still doesn't really act ill but I would like for him to stay that way. He started hanging out on the betta leaf a lot more since the meds. I don't want him to succumb to either his fin nor the meds. I can't decide what is a bigger risk.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Give him a rest then  it can't hurt.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

So bacteria resistance probably won't take place in a few days break?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Bacteria resistance can happen to anything at any point. But if you wanted to, you can give you kidneys and liver a break from the meds is what I mean.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Ok so I'll dose tonight do a water change on Friday. I'll watch him for a few days and if he deteriorates I'll start Kanaplex again. Is this right? Also I'll add the plants on. Sunday (2 weeks quarantine).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, that sounds good to me


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yes, that sounds good to me


Thanks lil, I really do appreciate your help! I'll check in next week.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I forgot the pics of the white dots which are beginning to get longer.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm just confused because it's sort of blackish around the 'growth'. At first they were tiny dots in a line and now they are more like small lines which is why I hope it's rays.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm not sure exactly where you are talking. Can you like...circle it or something? I'm not seeing anything


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

I couldn't circle but I cropped it to the area. They are blurry but they seem like growing rays in a line because they were dots at first and now they are growing into lines. I hope that makes sense...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmm, I don't really know but I do have doubts that they are rays, but I guess we'll have wait and see!


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Hmm, I don't really know but I do have doubts that they are rays, but I guess we'll have wait and see!


Probably not since they are not as defined now, but the dark portion of the split, especially near his body, is now a pearly emerald color. I'm hoping this is good? I'm not really seeing much growth on he outer edges of his fins.
His mood has deteriorated since the last Kanaplex dose last Wed though. He sleeps on his betta leaf at the top most of the day and is eating much less. Actually, it seems like he's interested takes a pellet, goes for another one but doesn't eat it and it floats. I'm also pretty sure that he's been throwing up the eaten pellet for the last 1-2 days. It comes out a pale yellowish color (the Omega1 pellet is a brick color originally). I've also seen his yawning (gagging?). He has been pooping pretty normally (once a day) including this morning. I've also observed him swim really fast like he's really freaked out after which he stayed still with his mouth at the surface with his pectorals next to his body and his top fin not as fanned as usual but the rest of his fins were normal. This is how he rests most of the day. Before the meds, even with his tail problem, he's been active as always and and eating like a pig, none of which are the case now =[ Could it be that he's still stressed from the dips and kanaplex did a number on his GI like in humans and he just needs some time to recover or is something more sinister at play? 

His params are 0 0 5-I did a large water change on Friday night, and have been doing 10% changer morning and night daily. I plan on doing this untill he gets better but it seems like he's not. I'm adding Prime Stability and Fish Protector.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Honestly, we've never gotten this far with a case like this so I'm really not sure. If the antibiotics were to work, they would have killed the bacteria already and so thus starts the long journey to heal, IF they did their job. So just do water changes when needed is the best I can answer on that part. I'm sorry I don't have more.

As for yawning, that's normal, he's just taking in air to inflate his swim bladder more is all


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Honestly, we've never gotten this far with a case like this so I'm really not sure. If the antibiotics were to work, they would have killed the bacteria already and so thus starts the long journey to heal, IF they did their job. So just do water changes when needed is the best I can answer on that part. I'm sorry I don't have more.
> 
> As for yawning, that's normal, he's just taking in air to inflate his swim bladder more is all


I know Thanks for your help! I was looking for a bit of reassurance. I think the meds worked hence the pearly emerald color where it was black. Any thoughts? 
Is 78-80 F temp ok?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you bump it up to around 82? That would boost his immune system and metabolism, he may eat a little more if he decides hes hungry again but that's good; the faster your metabolism the faster you use food up so you need more of it in the end.

It's possible, can you get pictures of it? Is it just under a certain light or is it all the time kind of color?


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Can you bump it up to around 82? That would boost his immune system and metabolism, he may eat a little more if he decides hes hungry again but that's good; the faster your metabolism the faster you use food up so you need more of it in the end.
> 
> It's possible, can you get pictures of it? Is it just under a certain light or is it all the time kind of color?


The parts that still look black are the shiny emerald color in any light. I'll up the temp, i was worried higher temps could promote bacteria. Thanks!


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

One more


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

He's been sleeping like this quite a lot since meds


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Hello friends I hope someone will see this. 
So now I am convinced that the hardened scales were not caused by fin rot but th e opposite. There is now a large lump/tumor along the base of his tail and the fin along that lump is gone. While it was growing it was taking fin along with it. He sleeps a lot and just when I bring myself to put him to sleep he eats and swims around a bit before it starts again. I think the tumor is starting to affect his swim ladder which is further impeding his ability to swim normally. He 's eating greedily almost daily and has never been clamped except his pectorals at times. This is the reason I couldn't go ahead with the clove oil I go. Am I wrong for keeping him alive? I've been keeping him in 2 tsps of Epsom salt. I don't like playing God but wouldn't like to torture him either. This is so hard since we love him so much. I'm crying everyday over our little guy. Please I need some guidance and reasurance. The holidays have been very sad this year since all I wanted was for him to get better.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

Do you have a recent picture?


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

It's a long post... The split happened really fast and that's when I noticed the hardened scales which I now see is a tumor at the base of his tail. I've seen new rays and fin growth a few times but it would soon get engulfed in the tumor. It's gotten really big. Nothing I tried helped and has only gotten worse.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

One more


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

To be perfectly honestly, it still looks like necrotic tissue to me that built up :-/


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> To be perfectly honestly, it still looks like necrotic tissue to me that built up :-/


Ok, but i'm really unsure how this observation addresses my concern in regards to My Boy. After a day of processing everything i've followed all of your advice so i 'm not sure how this comment helps other than to further validate that you are right?!? The advice you gave me had the oppodite effect. (Not blaming you for this it was worth a try but clearly made everything worse so I stopped afte a double treatment) Kanap lex, instead of helping killed his immunity and did not help at all but it made things much worse. Actually, maybe if i had continued terating with a medication that clearly did not help he would have died from the kanaplex and i wouldn't have this problem now. These are small creatures and treating agressively as you recoment quickly killed the immuno-compromised Fish in the links you sent me so those were not really reasuring either. I've found a couple people with boys with the same issues but have no need to justify myself but if you are in the reference team you should be a bit more open to other possibilities especially when the strongest antibiotic just made it worse. The lump preceded the split and kills surrounding tissue, his lowered immunity from stress sped that up obviously. Bettas, I am learning now which you should now as well are extremely genetically weak due to horrid breeding practices and have many known issues from it. I will never support these practices again but that's a whole new topic. At first I really appreciated your help but realize now that you like making yourself feel better a bit more than fish. You're still young so I'm sure some thing will come with age and experience. Thank you everyone and sorry, lil, if I've offended you but your last comment was really insensitive considering the whole situation and completely unnecessary except to make you holier than though. If anyone would like to help me with deciding whether to euthanize or keep making him as comfortable as possible which was my concern from the previous I am listening


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm sorry, what I meant by that was that if it really is necrotic tissue then there isn't anything to be done for him. I'm not trying to justify my diagnosis by seeming pompous because that's certainly not who I am. You'd asked for help and I simply gave my opinion. I don't pretend to know everything and I'm sorry if I come off that way.

It's very common for any animal, not just fish, to have bad reactions to the antibiotics. Now, I'm not saying that it was the right treatment for him or anything, but just explaining how antibiotics can work sometimes; they often take a big toll on the animal including humans. It's usually recommended in humans to take a probiotic to counter the bad effects of the antibiotic, in fish, there are probiotics but for the average fish keeper; it's usually not worth even looking into because they can be expensive. There are a few on the market which are fairly cheap which is always nice, especially when you've already spent money on the medicine in the first place.

So what I'm saying is that it's common for the animal to become ill or have side effects to that actual medication; was it the right treatment plan? I have no idea since I don't have a bacteria culture to work with and to see exactly what he has whether it actual be tumor (less common) or bacteria. So the best thing we can do here since none of us are certified vets, is to work with what we have and suggest a treatment depending on the type of symptoms you tell us and that we can see; if it doesn't work, then we move on to something else.

As for euthanizing, that is a very personal choice but I'll explain to when I start thinking about this option. Usually we start with the holistic approach; salt, clean water, mild antiseptics, and then move to antibiotics when the infection is clearly more aggressive. If none of those work and the fish is still getting weaker and weaker by the day, I only consider euthanizing when the fish clearly has no will or want to continue to fight, basically they've given up. They won't try to eat, they wont' run from a net or cup, they won't respond to outside stimulus, they're basically walking (swimming) dead at that point. Again, this is my personal choice, some will do it sooner and some won't do it at all. So unfortunately, we can't say yes or no to euthanization, that has to be up to you.

I'd also just like to point out that KanaPlex is not the strongest antibiotic but it's one of the more gentle ones which is why it's recommended to be used in conjunction with something else like Furan-2 (very harsh on the system) or something like salts. But this is in the past now, I just wanted to clear that for anyone who may be reading this.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

Now I feel like an ass but I honestly didn't get what you tried to say with the necrotic until now. I don't blame you for anything. The džemom is not important now as you have said also. The point I'd that our boy deteriorated despite good husbandry practices. He's never experienced ammonia nor nitrites in my care and as far as dissolved solids go he ate off my fingers and I syphoned his tank regularly. Used IALs to deal with high ph and hopefully keep him healthy. Used quality food and really anything I thought would make him happy and healthy. But this was not the case. The dark side is that I realiZed that our love for bettas is actually killing them. Breeders who supply chains mostly care about profits just like the chains themselves and quantity is preferred to quality. In this process our beloved betta suffer. Us resuming them only contributes to more betta that need rescuing. Even though I am saddened that I will never again have the pleasure of watching and interacting with such a beautiful creature in our home I've realized that the best place for betta is in their natural habitat in their natural shape. Genetic modification inbreeding and breeder/chain practices don't make happy betta and I will no longer contribute to their suffering. One our boy is gone I will place his picture where his tank is so his beauty can still mesmerize us and he will forever hold my heart. Such a majestic creature he was and I never imagined I could have an attachment like this to a fish. THEY are truly amazing creatures and deserve to live in health and happiness which cannot be achieved in captivity in most cases. 
Thank you lil for your opinion on euthanasia it was helpful. I still can't bring my self to do it yet but will use the clove oil in an emergency if I see he's in distress. This is so sad...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Don't worry, it happens. I try to keep in mind that the internet is a hard place to really communicate since over half of our communication is how we say something and non-verbal so when we take away those two elements, it can be very easy to misinterpret someone's text.

However, I do not believe that it was bad breeding or bad husbandry that lead to this. Regardless of breeding practices, you will always end up with a few from a spawn that aren't as strong as the rest but strong enough to continue living at least. It seems like he may have started off with a weakened immune system that lead to infection; regardless of bad or good husbandry, bacteria can still enter into the eco-system you've created. It's just part of fish keeping unfortunately and it happens to everyone, not just the new keepers but the old keepers as well.

As for leaving them to their natural habitat, unfortunately, humans are killing that too. There are efforts though that are trying to section off pieces of land in order to preserve the natural habitat. If you really wanted to help, you could find an organization like that and put some money in to help. Just a suggestion though, of course you don't have to


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

We can't know for sure what happened but the fact remains that I did everything I could for him and researched 100's of hours about the correct care and despite this his life is now miserable. It is heartbreaking since my kids are involved as well and my older son is taking it pretty hard like me. Our boy tries eating everytime but cannot always swim to the food. At times he only does a frantic dart to the top and back. Just when I get myself to put him to sleep he would come up and eat like everything's fine and I just can't do it. He definitely spends most of his time on the bottom panting. His gills aren't red I can tell since he's kind of see through. He pine coned last week which is when I got the clove oil but he wasn't bloated and it went away after I Added Epsom. I'm sure the growth is affecting his swim bladder and the fact almost his whole tail is gone is affecting his ability to swim but I'm anthropomorphizing and thinking we don't put down handicapped humans. Am I wrong?
And I agree us humans tend to ruin everything including betta's habitats but keeping one in my house will not aid in this issue but rather make it even more difficult for the marvelous creatures unfortunately, for the reasons we already discussed.


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## Ivana13 (Dec 6, 2014)

An interesting update...i finally decided to give him some frozen brine shrimp that i was too afraid to use before for fear of contamination, and apparently he can swim! Quite well too. He picks up all of the little bits and manuvers fine. So glad he can eat twice a day again. Then he goes back to panting on the bottom :/


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## EriJeann (Jan 12, 2015)

Bless your heart. I know the stress you must be going through with your beautiful boy.

I had that tank, by the way. It killed one of my bettas. My particular tank was leaking poisons into the water that I was not aware of until the betta died and I had the water tested for me. I'm not entirely sure what the chemical was, but the woman said it's from untreated, not "fish safe" materials. I almost wonder if you're having such nasty luck because of the tank. (I really don't know. Don't quote me on it. I'm merely speaking from my single personal experience.)

I currently have a betta with early signs of fin rot and I'm trying hard to treat him to the best of my abilities (being unemployed and living where I have unsafe well water, so I have a hard time affording so many gallons of spring water). I wish you luck with your boy, though. You're doing your best to be a good betta parent ♥ I'm sure he's grateful.


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