# This gets me SO angry.



## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

The first comment is definately right!
http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Betta, Housing.htm


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen.


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## Min (Jan 18, 2010)

Ugh ! I feel so bad for these lil guys. It amazes me they even make it to fish stores or pet stores. I feel bad having my guys in a 3 gl bowl even though heated & they seem happy as can be. I feel like even the slightest more room to move they appreciate in their own fishy way.


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

I really want to comment on there. I have 2 fish, 2 tanks. 10 gallons each. They're perfectly happy.


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## angiessa (Dec 19, 2011)

Wow, he is _seriously _condescending to people who disagree with him. I read through the comments and his responses, and all I can say is, "Jerk."


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

I agree.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Even if he was right in what he said (which he clearly isn't), his manner would make me want to disagree with him on principle. If he were a little more polite he would be so much less annoying.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I was reading through his site about guppies and gouramis, and then I saw a betta article. As usual, I had the urge to read anything betta-related! It just made me furious.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Sooooo... he is saying because breeders use jars and not tons of gallons per betta baby that people can keep bettas in nothing more than a bloody 2-shot glass?  I have Shiloh aaaaaall by himself in a 20 gallon. And he has yet to bite his tail anymore. Sure, if it were bare-bottom with no fake/live plants or hidey holes, and nothing to look at or swim around he'd be stressed (common sense).

However I personally know some people who keep healthy bettas in 1 gallon + .... Tank size will always be a conflict (I know yahooanswers has dah betta po-po comin' after some of the people)... But also, the comment about "we pamper them"about dogs that are bred... lies. Puppy mills feed them, sure, then force breed, and get puppies. tah dah ><


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## xbecky685x (Sep 25, 2011)

Its quite disturbing  
x


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

It's not about the space, it is about the environment. You can compare it to living in a small apartment vs. living in a mansion. You will feel much better and be healthier overall if you live in a CLEAN small apartment vs. a FILTHY mansion. The only reason why having a larger tank for beginners is encouraged is because it is very difficult to filthy-up a mansion with one person living in it.

There is a difference between how breeders and pets keep their fish. You honestly cannot expect a breeder, with thousands of fish, to keep them all in 5 gallon tanks...not even 1 gallon cubes.

It's all about keeping the water clean. It's just much easier in a larger, cycled tank.


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## Jrf456 (Jun 23, 2011)

I've seen this before.
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!
UGH. This poster makes me _sick._ The worst part is the people who comment agreeing with him. " I have 50 bettas, all in 1 qt jars " >:O ????

" I tried keeping my betta in a 10g and he was miserable. " This is often TRUE. Many bettas don't prefer large tanks, like my boy Garland gets extremely stressed in anything above 1g. But 1g is the minimum! Ughhhh. These people! 

I don't think the world will _ever_ truly be educated on fish care. You see so many knowledgeable people such as the folks on this site giving information to newbies and they LAUGH. 

Let's hope these cruelties stop. </3

/EDIT: Although as the person above me stated, yes. They can't keep them in large tanks or bowls. They just need a minimum of clean water.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have 3 of mine in 1 gallon containers but I plan to upgrade them soon.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

bahamut285 said:


> It's not about the space, it is about the environment. You can compare it to living in a small apartment vs. living in a mansion. You will feel much better and be healthier overall if you live in a CLEAN small apartment vs. a FILTHY mansion. The only reason why having a larger tank for beginners is encouraged is because it is very difficult to filthy-up a mansion with one person living in it.
> 
> There is a difference between how breeders and pets keep their fish. You honestly cannot expect a breeder, with thousands of fish, to keep them all in 5 gallon tanks...not even 1 gallon cubes.
> 
> It's all about keeping the water clean. It's just much easier in a larger, cycled tank.


Agreed.


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## newarkhiphop (Apr 22, 2011)

I personally think 1 gallon heated with a small cave is fine and should be the minimum for bettas kept as pets 

but yea that link is really sad, especially the ones kept in the plastic baggies.


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## ShyDog (Oct 15, 2011)

This is giving Des Moines a bad name over all :< which makes me sad cause their some of the nicest people ever, and tend to take really good care of their pets if educated properly.

(also scrolling down, his reply to comments are just..rude to say the least)


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## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

HE is rude, I've seen this page several times. It's beyond depressing, and frustrating. I keep my new girls in a .8 gal tank, with a mini heater, after a week or two they get moved into the sorority. How can anyone think they are happy in something even smaller than that permanently?

Granted after living in a cup they are beyond thrilled at the half gallon of water, but still, I mean after living in a closet you'd love a room. But you'd want the whole house/apartment after a while.


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## Ayane Hajinmon (Dec 30, 2011)

Farming environment in thailand...does this look cruel?im asking cuz idk how u farm it from babies x.x


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that's how breeders on here do it.


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## ShyDog (Oct 15, 2011)

Ayane Hajinmon said:


> Farming environment in thailand...does this look cruel?im asking cuz idk how u farm it from babies x.x


There is a difference between how breeders breed, and how "owners" are expected to keep their fish. Breeders are moving large quantities of fish at a time, raising them quickly, to be sold. Many members here do not have problems with how sellers choose to display their fish being sold, because the expectation is that these homes are only temporary until an owner buys them.

The rage at this particular website, is that he is marketing to owners to keep their fish like that, in containers smaller than he is selling them in. That coupled with incorrect information on how to keep these fish long term is rightfully making the OP angry. : )


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Not to mention, those Thai pools are really warm all year round. Heating under a gallon can be so risky.


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

You just don't heat it then......


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Bettas live better in warm water though... Any unheated tank I have, is in my room (which btw, is the warmest room, and is toooo warm :lol: ) because upstairs the temperature in my cycling tank is 72 :| without a heater.


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## ManInBlack2010 (Sep 7, 2011)

i want to know how this guy has any buisness with the kind of attitude he has. i would never buy anything from someone that treated people like that. looking at that betta page i feel like i'm looking at pictures of a puppy mill, which is baisically what it is if you really think about it

just got done reading through his article on AFDs, he calls them 'stupid' and 'unintelligent' several times. it's baisically a rant on how you have to baby proof everything in your tank 'cause these are the dumbest creatures on God's green earth... i mean, sure, ADFs are hard to keep, i've tried twice and after both of mine not lasting very long i gave up, but they were adorable and quirky when i had them and were definately not 'dumb' grrrr


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

The only "dumb" creatures are the ones to snub other creatures because they are "not as intellegent" :| lol. I don't see my fish as stupid. Nor ADFs. And especially not goldies. Intelligence to him must be "human", except he doesn't humanize fish... Which then he contradicts himself :lol: Intelligence isn't based by math skill. It's based off of instinct.


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## Marvel170 (Jan 2, 2012)

*rage mode activated*WHO THE **** DOES HE THINK HE IS???!!!!I CAN'T stand people like that. I agree with all the people that say they won't give him business. He is just so rude to the people that are actually talking COMMON SENSE. I mean really..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: common sense IS NOT SO COMMON D: it's....it's....

rare sense. (doesn't have the same ring. meh.)


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## Backlash (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi everyone,

I know I am only new here, but I feel the need to comment..

Personally, I dont believe that Betta's should be kept in tiny cups or bowls, but also acknowledge that they dont need a 400+ litre aquarium all to themselves to be happy either..

What I am finding a little disturbing is how many of the members here are condemning this person for having an opinion, be it right or wrong.. You say that he (assuming that it is a HE) is ignorant and arrogant in his replies to people telling him he is doing the wrong thing, how else would you expect him to be..?? After all, he is the one that has bothered to take the time out of his life to write and develop a website to try and help people care for fish, and all he gets in return is people telling him that he has done the wrong thing...

If you dont like what he has written, then maybe you should go out and develop a website of your own, express your opinions on how YOU feel that you should keep Betta's.. Then when people start sending you messages disagreeing with you and your ideas, then hopefully you can be more polite in your replies..

Goodluck


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

The thing is...he's gone against the general fish keeping ideologies. I know people here who have bettas in 1 gallons, and none of us condemn them because we know they care for the fish. But, having fish in small cups as a forever home? That's drawing the line. I understand your point, as I've been bashed a lot because of what I think, but the thing is he isn't really helping, if he isn't open to opinions.


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## ShyDog (Oct 15, 2011)

Honestly if you take a look around the site, we tend to be really helpful, and friendly. (and what is this if not a website pooling the knowledge of a bunch of experienced fish keepers?) 
also, I don't think you'll find anyone on here that believes that a betta should be kept in a 400 liter tank.  and either a 1-2 gallon with a heater seems to be the minimum.

We're angry at him, (and it is a him) because of his practices, and if you scroll down to his comments sections, they are often rude in reply and self-satisfying rather than open to the idea that he might be wrong, or that there is something else out there for him to learn.

In the mean time, since you are new, and your first post was "condemning" us to being ignorant, and angry. Please take a look around this site you will find many varied opinions and a wealth of knowledge about the subject of fish keeping in a safe happy enviornment.


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## SmokeNLark (Jul 22, 2010)

I hate this. The comments all bashing the first person doing it right is sickening. People saying that they are miserable in anything bigger than a half gallon are crazy. I say this as I watch my 2 1/2 year old betta living very happily and healthy in a 29 gallon with cory cats and platys. Maybe I should stick him back in his cup. He'd be happier, right? Cleanliness is more important than space, but there is a point where it's cruel. They need to move. Just because they breathe from the surface doesn't mean they don't have to move.

And Backlash, we are quite polite and the community as a whole is extremely knowledgeable. It just makes us sick to see any animal (especially bettas since this is a betta forum) being mistreated. Yes people do things differently, but there's a point that it is cruel. There are a certain set of "rules" for each fish species as to how they should be taken care of that have been determined from many years and many people keeping them. In addition, the size and characteristics of the fish determine these as well. You will find some people who say that 1 gallon is minimum or 10 gallons is minimum. This forum (and most knowledgeable fish enthusiasts) say between 2.5 and 5 gallons is ideal and agree that .25 gallon and .5 gallons are cruel. A bettas tank is his entire world. Giving him less than the minimum makes the keeper an irresponsible owner and gives fish bad lives. And passing it off as good and correct information leads to more bad owners.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

We just like the best for our fishy fellows :lol: Even if they are in 1 gallon tanks, we aim to help the owner with cleaning routines, feeding, etc, to ensure his little buddy doesn't get sick!

However, fish have a preferance....I have one who refuses to be happy in a small tank (Shiloh) But I have one who hates bigger tanks. Just...gotta learn your fish


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

Did you see how they stuffed 150 bettas into a box?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Was that for shipping? the supplier here does the same thing. I went to the store when they were pulling out shipments. FIY, anyone ever breeders goldfish on here PLEASE don't send hundreds to one store. 5 might survive. -.- and yeah the bettas are smooshed together in a box, and actually some were dead because they were crushed. I wouldn't mind, if they shipped bettas like that IF they had a stacking practice... like, I personally would have "holder" boxes for one row(like tha makes any sense)then have the next row of bettas ontop... and with the box piece below they wouldn't be sitting on the other bettas. If...anyone..understands :lol:


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

And the caption was like, "Put then in really small amount of water and small bag for shipping...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I've seen bettas come in with a decent amount of water, in a normal fish bag (like in stores), inside of another bag, to ensure no leakage o.o


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## fishman12 (Sep 1, 2010)

Some places are better than others.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

This man is a hypocrite! This article condemns small fish tanks (anything under 10 gal). I just found it today when another member from TFK referenced it in trying to persuade someone against a desktop aquarium. I thought the website looked familiar, and then I saw it. Not to mention his information about goldfish is totally wrong. Keeping one in a minitank will cause stunting as well as ammonia poisoning. I'm disliking this man more and more.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

I must say, I used to look at that site for information on some reptiles and such, but now anything on there is going to be suspect, and after reading the responses? No way will I ever look at, link to, or recommend that site again for sure. If I ever find myself near Des Moines, you can bet I won't be stopping in there either.

There is no point at which it is called for to be condescending and ridiculing, _especially_ in a situation such as that. To quote a common meme: you're doing it wrong.

Also, Sena, I understood what you meant and if shipping in bags and intending to put that many in there: for sure, there needs to be something like that.

I've learned a fair bit about distributors and such from this thread, however. My store really does have one of the better ones: bags aren't crammed into the cooler (or at least styrofoam lined) boxes, bags aren't stacked on top of one another, and the Bettas are shipped in the cups that eventually go on the shelves and kept in place by the tubes of live plants with heat packs. The manager makes sure that all fish are unpacked, acclimated, and released in a timely fashion as well to avoid deaths from having to wait longer in the stores; bags are emptied into a bucket and the fish caught in a net rather than dumped in; Bettas even receive water changes before they're put on the shelves.

I've even looked into one of our distributors (the one for our Bettas as I wasn't able to find anything on the other one) and it doesn't appear as though they're middle men either: seems they breed the fish they ship out.

ETA: Wow, just from a cursory glance I noticed at least a few problems with his article on "mini-tanks" -- namely his stocking suggestions. He really isn't making it much easier to stock them appropriately, is he?

Also, he says the exact opposite about under gravel filters in comparison to anything I've read or seen. Even when they're not said to be virtually useless, I've still seen them as the least recommended filter type.


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## PaintingPintos (Dec 27, 2011)

I hate "fish mills"...... I seriously want to comment some VERY horrible things on there. And some sickos are saying they're HAPPY with the information given there....disgusting. 
Would you rather live in a closet (regardless of size, all closets are SMALL), or in a mansion? Or at least a regular home? Stupid people...they should not be allowed to have children.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

Backlash said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I know I am only new here, but I feel the need to comment..
> 
> ...


I can't speak for the whole forum, but my reason for being upset is a bit complicated. Hopefully, this response makes sense to other people. Sometimes my logic only makes sense in my head. ^_^;

When people go to fish stores, they believe what the pet store workers say is truth as opposed to opinion because they work there. The average person assumes a pet store hires people who know what they are doing for the sake of the animals. Therefore, the worker in front of a potential buyer is assumed knowledgeable until proven otherwise. Until then, their "opinions" are considered to be accurate care instructions instead of harmful myths. 

The same goes for this breeder's website. Since this is a breeder with his own website, most visitors do not see what he writes as opinions or isolated experiences. They see what he writes as a "how to" guide for betta care because of the years he has spent taking care of bettas. Since someone in his position is doing more harm than good by spreading false information and myths and down playing cruel animal conditions because bettas are hardy enough to survive them, I am upset. What he tells his visitors they can use as permanent betta housing is completely wrong and he is rightfully called on his error. 

He is free to have all the opinions he wants. He is free to share his opinions with the world. He is not free to frame his opinions as truth when he is clearly wrong just because of the weight of his title. I'm upset that he uses his years of breeding as a way to make his wrong information seem more reliable than the responses that correct him. I hate how he uses cruel breeding conditions as proof that bettas can survive in betta bowls if they survived being in shot glass sized cups. It's not right to use the fact that being shipped in tiny amounts of water without dying proves that betta bowls are enough to house bettas. 

Yes, the majority of the info on his site is correct. But you can't use the 95% time you are correct to prove that you have to be correct the other 5% of the time. It's great that he has so much experience with betta care. That doesn't mean he's right when he pushes betta bowls as appropriate permanent housing for bettas. Since he is wrong about that one perticular topic, people have the right to correct him without being snubbed, looked down on, or humiliated.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

This person and his website has been featured on here at least once before. Personally, I think while he obviously has some knowledge, he prefers to be inflammatory and controversial. 

To some people, fish are just fish, no matter how much you might try to convince them otherwise.

At least he mentions the importance of heating in his article. I've seen a few tanks on here with no visible heater even though the owner lives in a state that is not hot year round. Cold water can be as stressful to bettas as dirty water.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't think he's an actual breeder, but otherwise, SnowySurface, I agree.

In fact, there was a discussion in my Business Law class in which it was demonstrated that a person in such a position as a sales associate in retail (and I think he gave himself an even higher distinction on his site) are viewed by customers to be experts. In this case it had to do with warranties, but it is, in fact, true that customers view people in such positions as experts and trust what they are told by them. This applies whether purchasing a mattress or a fish, and I've seen it demonstrated regularly.

Personally, I keep that in mind when dealing with customers at work and make it clear when I'm uncertain on something and try to find them the answers when I can -- if not, I find someone who can find those answers for them. Unfortunately you have people like this guy who feel they have enough experience and knowledge (whether factual or not) that they are an actual authority and they deride anyone who challenges that idea.

Honestly, I would not want someone like that working for me and dealing with my customers. Furthermore, I would take anything they said with an entire bag of salt (if not dismiss it entirely) and would not do business with them.

Anyone who has done any real research would know that retail set-ups and, fairly often (especially with small animals and fish), breeder set-ups are not necessarily _proper_ set-ups.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

No, they hope to have the fish sell fast, therefore bettas can be in smaller units of water for a short time... same with breeders. breed them, house them, sell them. 

Only problem I find with this store in town (okay, two, including the employee and her lack of care for 50% of the animals) is the bowls are not being cleaned as needed... at least 2 times a week, for the less than half gallons! That..would be terrible, but would not result in 1.0 (Sarah), .75 (Marge and Tina), and .50 (Suzi, Zebra, Rose) ammonia, never cleaned, and always rising in ammonia amounts, while water evaporates. o.o or result in deaths from many common diseases.

I found, by people here, they'd rather buy a healthy active betta than a sad looking one rotting away in a cup, because they want a healthy fish - no problems.


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## PaintingPintos (Dec 27, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> It's not about the space, it is about the environment. You can compare it to living in a small apartment vs. living in a mansion. You will feel much better and be healthier overall if you live in a CLEAN small apartment vs. a FILTHY mansion. The only reason why having a larger tank for beginners is encouraged is because it is very difficult to filthy-up a mansion with one person living in it.
> 
> There is a difference between how breeders and pets keep their fish. You honestly cannot expect a breeder, with thousands of fish, to keep them all in 5 gallon tanks...not even 1 gallon cubes.
> 
> It's all about keeping the water clean. It's just much easier in a larger, cycled tank.


(Sorry, I was ranting)
What I'm saying, is that there is simply no room to exercise. You're right about cleanliness, but how many times can you swim around in circles without getting dizzy? There's no room to dart around, either.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I think that is why I like shallow tubs for quarantine and temporary housing  there's room, with only 3 gallons, compared to one tank I had which was 3 gallons with no room to move but was tall....


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have a male PK that lives in a 1 gallon breeder's net inside one of my larger tanks and he utilises that space a lot more than I thought he would. He definitely does a lot more excercising than the male I have living in a tank six times that size.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: oh yeah! Some bettas like smaller spaces (I know someone here has a betta in 0.5?) while others prefer large spaces. Shiloh LOVES being in a 20 gallon (x.x) and Ghengis doesn't care the size.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I have pure hatred for the person who wrote that article. D:<
Also, I can't believe what a good discussion this has become!


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

my VT didnt mind a 0.5g but he has no issues with a divided 5g either. i didnt like him sitting in a .5g either but it worked well as a temp tank until i got my 5 gal up and running. at that time i didnt have any larger tanks where he didnt go rambo on his tail.


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## morla (Oct 8, 2011)

Poor bettas!


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Little Circe started out in a 3 gallon quarantine, which seemed to suit her just fine because she was barely an inch long and the skinniest little thing you could imagine (GRR to the petshop I got her from). I moved her to the 16 gallon, which is 18 inches tall and massive compared to what she was in. After a few days of shyness, though, she took to it brilliantly and uses every inch of it. I think with really dense planting, most bettas enjoy large spaces.


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## Backlash (Jan 9, 2012)

SnowySurface said:


> I can't speak for the whole forum, but my reason for being upset is a bit complicated. Hopefully, this response makes sense to other people. Sometimes my logic only makes sense in my head. ^_^;


Look, I'm not exactly happy with seeing all of those photo's of the betta being shipped in little tiny bags with no water, or that once they reach the distributor they sit in a small cup full of their own filth until they are purchased. Yes, they are living things, and they deserve to be treated better.. 



> When people go to fish stores, they believe what the pet store workers say is truth as opposed to opinion because they work there. The average person assumes a pet store hires people who know what they are doing for the sake of the animals. Therefore, the worker in front of a potential buyer is assumed knowledgeable until proven otherwise. Until then, their "opinions" are considered to be accurate care instructions instead of harmful myths.


Sadly this happens in all aspects of the retail game, not just in fish stores.. It's just that it becomes more noticeable when the customer has a fair bit of experience and knowledge on the item being purchased.. 

How many times have you gone into buy a new appliance, eg washing machine, TV, coffee maker etc, only to realise halfway through your conversation with your sales assistant that you have more idea about what they are selling, and if you bought what they were trying to sell you that it would be completely unsuitable for what you wanted it for..?



> The same goes for this breeder's website. Since this is a breeder with his own website, most visitors do not see what he writes as opinions or isolated experiences. They see what he writes as a "how to" guide for betta care because of the years he has spent taking care of bettas. Since someone in his position is doing more harm than good by spreading false information and myths and down playing cruel animal conditions because bettas are hardy enough to survive them, I am upset. What he tells his visitors they can use as permanent betta housing is completely wrong and he is rightfully called on his error.


I have also read the information on his site regarding the care of betta, and the only thing that I find to be questionable is the size of the "tank" that he suggests that they "can" be housed in.. I am also not sure if this is his opinion, or him just giving into an accepted practice.. If you read the section of his website where he is talking about betta being kept in jars, that he does note "the bigger the better.."

Why is it that most tanks that are sold specifically for betta, small?? 

Also, keep in mind that whilst it is your opinion that it is OK to keep betta in a 2.5g + tank, that there are probably animal rights actavists out there that insist that you are the one being cruel, and that all fish, birds and animals in general should not be kept in captivity at all, and should be allowed to roam free as nature intended... 



> He is free to have all the opinions he wants. He is free to share his opinions with the world. He is not free to frame his opinions as truth when he is clearly wrong just because of the weight of his title. I'm upset that he uses his years of breeding as a way to make his wrong information seem more reliable than the responses that correct him. I hate how he uses cruel breeding conditions as proof that bettas can survive in betta bowls if they survived being in shot glass sized cups. It's not right to use the fact that being shipped in tiny amounts of water without dying proves that betta bowls are enough to house bettas.
> 
> 
> Yes, the majority of the info on his site is correct. But you can't use the 95% time you are correct to prove that you have to be correct the other 5% of the time. It's great that he has so much experience with betta care. That doesn't mean he's right when he pushes betta bowls as appropriate permanent housing for bettas. Since he is wrong about that one perticular topic, people have the right to correct him without being snubbed, looked down on, or humiliated.


What I have found quite offensive about this thread are the comments about this guys attitude, and that his opinion is wrong... But what makes you such an authority on betta care, and why should your opinion carry any more weight that what his does?? After all, he is the one with the website..

I am also yet to see where has been scientifically established that betta are actually happier in a large aquarium.. 

If you feel that his opinion is wrong, then instead of disagreeing with him on a separate forum, why not do some good by starting your own website on betta care..

Since joining the bettaFish.com website, I have been doing quite a bit of reading, and I have seen that even the members on here, who I'm quite sure all have the opinion that they care for their own betta in the "correct way", still cannot agree on some aspects of betta care.. 

One topic that comes to mind is feeding betta a pea to cure constipation.. There appears to be very little grey area on this one, with opinions being "yes you can" to "No you cant".. 

All we can hope for is that everyone that decides to adopt a betta as a family member, will do as much research as possible as to the "correct" way to care for them, weigh up all of the differing opinions and form one of their own that will keep their betta happy and healthy..

SnowySurface, I'm sorry to single you out by quoting you, but it was easier to reply to you as your comments were clearly directed at me.. I hope that you understand that my reply was not meant to be a personal atack against you..

Mark..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

No one said anything about "bettas are actually happier in a larger aquarium" as if you have read some of the posts on here...and even some threads on here... some of us find a few of our bettas rather small tanks, over large, while some for some reason rather large over small - and most of us rather say "well, it's hard to heat a 1 gallon... if you can get a 2.5, it's so much easier to heat - safely. But if not, here's some tips: avoid drafts, higher up (heat rises) etc etc" 

From what I learned from goldfish/betta and whatever else breeders (carnivorous and herbivore fish) for bettas, as they are carnivores and get their "veggies" through live foods that eat vegetation, peas are not very good, even if they do work - there are other options like fasting for a day, daphnia, epsom, etc. Peas, were orignally for fish like goldies.

The whole point of a forum is to opinionate. To learn. To teach. To chat... There is no law against having our own opinions, and 99% of the time we've respected each other's choices, in breeding, fish compatibility, tank size, etc, while throwing in our two cents. :lol:

I think it is more that he put his "breeder" status as a high and mighty kind of thing that is bothersome.


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## Backlash (Jan 9, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> The whole point of a forum is to opinionate. To learn. To teach. To chat... There is no law against having our own opinions, and 99% of the time we've respected each other's choices, in breeding, fish compatibility, tank size, etc, while throwing in our two cents. :lol:


Sena, Thankyou... 

After reading this thread, I started to think that an individual was not allowed to have an opinion on this forum if it differed from that of the majority..

To be quite honest, I dont want to be part of any website/forum where a member is not free to have their own opinnion, and that is what I was/am trying to establish with the comments made in my two posts..

Mark..


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## SmokeNLark (Jul 22, 2010)

Backlash said:


> After reading this thread, I started to think that an individual was not allowed to have an opinion on this forum if it differed from that of the majority..
> 
> To be quite honest, I dont want to be part of any website/forum where a member is not free to have their own opinnion, and that is what I was/am trying to establish with the comments made in my two posts..


Definitely not! This forum is a great place for opinions and to make their own choices. As I said before, the content of the article regarding tanks that are considerably under a gallon are considered cruel. It's not simply a difference of opinion, but bad information that will lead to bad betta care. The fact that he has a website is exactly a reason why it makes us mad. He is putting himself in a position that makes others think he is an authority. And this is also a website on betta care with many contributors. No one said we were an "authority", but we are people who care, do tons of research, and have our own experience. Some people here have owned fish since before I was alive. And others have been breeders for a long time and are respectable. Also, companies make tiny betta tanks because they can survive in them and are trying to sell pets by having people think they are easier to care for. They do this across the board with every animal. You will get different opinions here and fish care has many grey areas. This is quite a nice forum with many great helpful people. :-D


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

smokenlark said:


> definitely not! This forum is a great place for opinions and to make their own choices. As i said before, the content of the article regarding tanks that are considerably under a gallon are considered cruel. It's not simply a difference of opinion, but bad information that will lead to bad betta care. The fact that he has a website is exactly a reason why it makes us mad. He is putting himself in a position that makes others think he is an authority. And this is also a website on betta care with many contributors. No one said we were an "authority", but we are people who care, do tons of research, and have our own experience. Some people here have owned fish since before i was alive. And others have been breeders for a long time and are respectable. Also, companies make tiny betta tanks because they can survive in them and are trying to sell pets by having people think they are easier to care for. They do this across the board with every animal. You will get different opinions here and fish care has many grey areas. This is quite a nice forum with many great helpful people. :-d


^
+1


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Backlash said:


> Sena, Thankyou...
> 
> After reading this thread, I started to think that an individual was not allowed to have an opinion on this forum if it differed from that of the majority..
> 
> ...


If a forum disallows a personal opinion it's not a forum, it's a bashing site. We don't allow that here  We don't like it >< I came here from yahooanswers... And truthfully, on yahooanswers you have to be stingy on details about a betta fish - like tank size there MUST be 5 gallons heat MUST be 78... so on so forth. Here, we just rather give tips on what keeps bettas healthy.

However, some people don't have the space and still want a little buddy (dorms)... so we'd rather help them with what they have, then bash them


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Backlash, welcome to the forum.  Everyone here is entitled to an opinion and we welcome many different perspectives on betta care. As long as opinions can be stated politely and without getting personal, go for it. 

You are right that there is a lot of grey areas in some aspects of the advice given on the forum, (ie, the pea issue). Rest assured that the forum team is working to fix that even as I type.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

From what I know of the pea thing, when I noted it isn't all that good for bettas (and someone with "more years of experience said it is the best thing to do x.x there's the grey area you are talking about.) is that there are other options, like I mentioned, plus it "does" work for some, others not so much. I just fast my guys/gals for a day of the week lol.

And yes, welcome to the forum.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

OFL has posted before saying feeding pea occasionally won't hurt your betta and it certainly won't up and kill him or anything that drastic, but she also notes that there are many better ways to treat constipation rather than pea.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Exactly =D lol for any of my new ones, who are having a little digestion issue (they feed tons of flakes in the store, so half rot, half get eaten - approximately 8 flakes a day!) I give epsom salt  lol if I had daphnia I'd use that :lol:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Brine shrimp works too. But if it's 2 AM in the middle of the night, your betta is bloated or has SBD and you don't have anything BUT frozen peas on hand, then it won't hurt to try them.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

true.  Dally won't eat in a bigger tank. And I hate the stupid bowl he's in >< lol there is the "some like bigger spaces, some like small" thing again. All he does is hide. -smh- for a week.


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## Backlash (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi everyone, 

I'm sorry.. It was not my intention to upset anyone, or imply that the members here are arrogant.. 

But after reading some of the comments that I have quoted below, hopefully you all can understand why I started to wonder if someone was free to have their own opinion on this site.. The comments dont exactly make a great first impression of the site do they?? 



> I read through the comments and his responses, and all I can say is, "Jerk."





> Even if he was right in what he said (which he clearly isn't), his manner would make me want to disagree with him on principle.





> I've seen this before.
> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!
> UGH. This poster makes me _sick._ The worst part is the people who comment agreeing with him. " I have 50 bettas, all in 1 qt jars " >:O ????





> *rage mode activated*WHO THE **** DOES HE THINK HE IS???!!!!I CAN'T stand people like that. I agree with all the people that say they won't give him business. He is just so rude to the people that are actually talking COMMON SENSE. I mean really..





> I have pure hatred for the person who wrote that article. D:<


I understand that all of the members here are very passionate about their betta, and like myself, do not like to hear stories or advice being given that could be detrimental to their health and well being..

Maybe I'm just used to seeing a little more etiquette being used on a forum..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That is true :lol: I personally did not read through the entire site, just the listed page and I don't quite understand the guy's reasoning for some of the things. However, I know if you were to ship a betta in a lot of water, you'd be paying sooo much more ><


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

@Backlash










MAN, I LIKE YOU ALREADY <3333 lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Hello, Backlash and welcome to the forum. We all have a right to our opinions and we need to respect the opinions of others even if we don't agree. Tank size will always be an issue. Like bahamut said, a fish could live in a clean apartmrnt or filthy mansion. My fish are kept in smaller containers and do fine as long as I keep up with water changes. 
Guys, I don't think Backlash was rude. He was just stating his opinion, just like everyone else.


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## Mavi (Dec 28, 2011)

Oh my goodness, those were such depressing pictures!!! And the comment, that one person who suggested that Kirsten hanna knew nothing about caring for bettas made my skin crawl!


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## angiessa (Dec 19, 2011)

Since my post was one of those quoted, I'd like to address my reasoning. I wasn't calling the guy a jerk because of the information he provides. Of course he's entitled to his opinion. But he posted people's responses to his site, along with his replies, and his replies were frequently condescending and downright rude. That is where my "jerk" comment came from, and I stand by it. I still think his replies to people who disagree with him make him look like a jerk. In my opinion, of course. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: I might disagree on the pea method but I won't lash out at someone... I just say "meh this is how I do it because I prefer these methods"


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Backlash said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm sorry.. It was not my intention to upset anyone, or imply that the members here are arrogant..
> 
> ...


Hi Backlash. You weren't being rude, you were just stating your opinion, as was everyone else. Again, the issue of etiquette is another thing we are working on to improve our forum. I hope you will stick around and discover that people here are actually pretty helpful and friendly.  

I believe, as some members have already stated, that what upset them was perhaps the tone the owner of that site took when he replied to those who posted comments about his betta care. They were not angry at anyone on the forum for expressing their opinions; rather, they were upset that it seemed people could not express opinions on the store owner's website.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Backlash said:


> I am also yet to see where has been scientifically established that betta are actually happier in a large aquarium..


I think I can answer this one. For most people here, it's not a question of whether or not they're happier in a larger tank. It's more about the maintenance. It's just easier to heat and care for a larger than than it is to care for a 1 gallon tank. In fishkeeping, the rule of thumb is the larger the tank, the few water changes you have to make.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Agreed xD My new roomie was worried I was going to have tons of tanks around. I told him, find me a loooooong tank with dividers, stuff it full of plants and then we'll talk about getting rid of my other tanks (still wouldn't happen x) ) :lol: I don't have a ton of 1 gallons, or 3 gallons, because it's harder to do that many water changes vs cycled 10+ tank(s)... for me anyways. But there are some people who would rather do the work for a small tank, and I say go for it =D


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes. In some ways, I do find my 1.75g tanks easier to change than my big 10g + tanks. For my 1.75g, I just scoop the betta out and dump the water in the sink and refill, all in one place. For the 10g + tanks, I have to get the buckets and the siphon and lug heavy stuff.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's true. If I had the python hose.... ohh darn rights I'd like the bigger tanks better xDD When treatign fish, I usually have them in 1-3 gallons because it is easier to dose AND clean


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I only have 2 in 1 gallon containers now since Fernando died. The rest are in 1.5 and 2.5 gallons.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

And the bettas I have in my smaller tanks are in them for a reason. Scooter can't swim and Rodgers has breathing issues. I use a 1 gallon for treatment. They all work just fine.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have Dally back in the dumb bowl. :/ He wouldn't eat, or do anything in a 3 gallon so fiiine back in the bowl, eats now, and is active. (he's a strange one.)


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

My responses are in purple. 



Backlash said:


> Look, I'm not exactly happy with seeing all of those photo's of the betta being shipped in little tiny bags with no water, or that once they reach the distributor they sit in a small cup full of their own filth until they are purchased. Yes, they are living things, and they deserve to be treated better..
> 
> Sweet, we agree. :-D
> 
> ...


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## PaintingPintos (Dec 27, 2011)

People say that animals cannot be humanized because they are programmed to breathe, eat, breed, and die. They apparently have no idea whether they are alive or not.
How about my story, eh? Here it is:
When I was about 5 I had several goldfish in a tank (this was before I knew about keeping comets in tanks larger than 70 gallons!), and one of the fish was not doing too well. My parents cleaned the tank every week, fed them properly, changed out their filters and airstones, etc. But one was just not right. I don't know what it had, but all I knew was that its eyes were full of cataracts and it was turning pale.
So one day I woke up and went to the dining room to feed the fish, and lo and behold, one of the fish was dead. It was laying at the bottom of the tank (I don't know why it didn't float) and all of the other 6 fish were gathered AROUND it. They were all in a scattered circle around it, and I'm not lying... they were nose down and staring at the fish. They didn't go to the surface to gulp food as usual like they did every day, and it took a while for them to turn and eat their food.
Later when we netted the fish to bury it (we always bury our dead animals) the fish followed the net up to the surface and floated there for a moment when I took it out. A few days after the fish was gone, the other fish returned to normal and never did that again because they never died.
Now the rest of the fish are in my aunt's pond and thriving... but still I'll never forget the day the fish "mourned"... maybe I'm wrong, but they certainly weren't trying to eat it, as they were a few inches away, and the dead fish wasn't rotting yet.
You tell me what you think about it. But goldfish seem to be more perceptive of situations than you might think.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have a story like that!!  In the store, there were a bunch of fancies and comets (why together I dunno). Just small ones, all crowded in the 70 gallon. One, an orange comet, was "nuzzling" his poor buddy, who was sickly pale... And drifting off while gasping hard. He wouldn't bite him, or chew on him like I HAVE seen fish do. he kept with him, pushed him around, trying to keep him UPRIGHT. o.o I watched this for a while because it was so cute... and I've never seen it before.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

I've seen that a few times at work, Sena.

I've also seen an Oscar lying beside one which was obviously dying -- I stuck the net in to see what was up and nudged them a bit (I was scooping out the dead fish at the time I saw it) and one seemed fine while the other was clearly struggling. Unfortunately I didn't know at the time that we _do_ euthanize dying fish, but it struck me as interesting at the time that an Oscar, the guys who normally follow me around hoping for food and would at least _try_ to eat anything put in their tank, would seem to hang out with another Oscar which was dying. Haven't seen it since when one of them was struggling or dying: just with those two.

Sure, perhaps I misinterpreted the situation, perhaps the other one was not entirely well either, but all the same they truly did stick together and would return as they were even after disturbed.

Not to mention I don't know how many times I've seen my own bettas clearly upset, angry even, in direct response to something.

Just how large a capacity do fish have for emotions? I don't know, and I imagine it can depend from species to species even. But I do know that we, as humans, have just as much a capacity to underestimate other animals (heck, even other people) as we do to humanize other animals. And sometimes we take a bit too clinical or scientific a view of things.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well apparently bettas "lack the brain capacity for complex emotions like love, anger, etc" so we're just "humanizing". But I could care less  they have emotions to me, they'll continue to HAVE emotions, to me, because I humanize. We do it to all animals. So? :lol: makes them worth having, gives them a reason worth living, in our eyes.

However Crayola was a diva... and I moved him to a 3 gallon because of an emergency and he wouldn't eat for 2 weeks, wouldn't even LOOK at me :| when he did he flared then swam off and "pouted" :lol:


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I always wonder if the fish don't know the other one is sick so they hang around and wait for it to die so they can eat it?

One of my female bettas (wild) was sick one time (the male had built a nest and I thought she was waiting to spawn with him) and the two males hung around her looking like they were keeping watch over her. This was until she got even weaker and then they started aggressively picking at her. 

I personally don't think fish have the emotional capacity for compassion. Undoubtedly, they are smarter than most people think, but there is no need for higher-level emotions in a species such as fish.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> Well apparently bettas "lack the brain capacity for complex emotions like love, anger, etc" so we're just "humanizing".


That's what I mean -- it's said that they "lack the brain capacity" but then how do they explain things that so many people have observed? I mean, I haven't _actually_ looked into it in depth (I decided against the animal behavior career route), but it would seem to me that territoriality is more complex than, say, anger. *Shrugs*

And this isn't just in regard to Bettas, either. I don't know how many times I've seen it said that dogs lack the faculties for certain things which I've observed in them; sometimes the explanations seem at least as humanizing as they claim it is to attribute certain things (certain emotions, hierarchies, etc.) to the dogs. I'm not sure it works to compare them to humans in such cases, but that may just be me.

But it's why I think sometimes some people look at things a little too clinically and scientifically.

Though, also, I do like your argument that humanizing can give them "reason" -- it's a perfectly valid argument given that abuse, neglect, and so on often coincides with a lack of humanizing, so to speak.

:lol: I love your story with Crayola! Makes me think of my late cat, and this is entirely accurate to what happened. He was starting to eat from his dish when my mother told him he was fat (which he had never been in his 9-years of life, that cat was 16lbs of solid muscle (Maine ****-mix) -- and, yes, he died _much_ too young), at which point he stopped, looked at her, and then _walked away_.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I always wonder if the fish don't know the other one is sick so they hang around and wait for it to die so they can eat it?


Hm, I can see that as a valid possibility. As I (think) I mentioned I did think it a little strange what I saw. I can agree that compassion is likely unnecessary for fish (I've seen too many emotions listed as higher-level to say there -- I never looked too much into emotions myself), but I think to go so far as to say that they have _no_ emotions is a bit much.

Apologies for the double-post, but I thought it better to do that than to edit given I'm responding to someone else entirely (and my last one was kind of long).


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Haha I wish a couple of my fish would be intelligent enough to remember that jumping while being fed or looked at only ends up with you flopping around on the carpet while I am desperately trying to scoop you up *hasaversiontotouchingescapedfish*


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

NoahG said:


> -snip-
> 
> Just how large a capacity do fish have for emotions? I don't know, and I imagine it can depend from species to species even. But I do know that we, as humans, have just as much a capacity to underestimate other animals (heck, even other people) as we do to humanize other animals. And sometimes we take a bit too clinical or scientific a view of things.


You're right about overhumanizing and underhumanizing, but coming from someone who has actually seen and dissected a few fish brains, I can say you guys might be overhumanizing fish a bit much. As far as emotional capacity, fish don't have it. Emotion is a human construct that requires a highly developed brain. Fish just don't have that. 

Fish brains are constructed very differently from ours. (Taken straight from my Ichthyology textbook: "Fish brains are on average only 1/15 of the size of the brain of a bird or mammal of equal body size.") The parts of the sensory parts brain are proportionally much larger than in our brains. In our brains the parts that deal with abstract thought are much larger. Fish are creatures of instinct. Don't get me wrong. This doesn't mean that we can treat them as disposable. I'm just saying fish don't have emotions; they have instincts. This doesn't stop me from loving and caring for my fish at all. They are gorgeous and so graceful to watch move and deserve the best. 

Now if we are talking about whether or not fish feel pain (not actually an emotion but a physiological response of the nervous system), then there is room for debate.

ETA: Noah, to answer your question about animals having emotions, there have been lots of studies on bird and mammal emotion. Lots of them. The jury is still out, but it does seem like some mammals do experience emotion. But about fish, the science is there to say they don't. The anecdotal stories are just stories of overhumanizing.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well the thing is, humanizing or not, just because WE have emotions doesn't mean other animals "have to" in order to have intellegence, as some people I know in my town believe. >< any animal like fish, have instinct. Instinct, to me, is better than emotion because it's based on survival, companionship (some fish, some animals), and so on so forth  so when we see "anger" we might see "territorrial aggression" while when we see "love" it's really "Feed me now!" :lol: either way, we learn to humanize fish, and give them emotions, to give them sympathy when we see their "emotions" in play.

there's my two cents


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Sena, you make a good point about intelligence v emotion. Fish certainly have a greater intelligence than people expect. Scientific studies have shown this. My favorite shows that fish can remember being hooked by an angler in one spot and not return to that spot for a while.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Haha I wish a couple of my fish would be intelligent enough to remember that jumping while being fed or looked at only ends up with you flopping around on the carpet while I am desperately trying to scoop you up *hasaversiontotouchingescapedfish*


:lol: I'm glad mine can't jump very well...yet. I hate trying to scoop up a fish from the floor -- I worry about squishing them and they always flop _just_ when I think I've got it. So I sort of poke them into the net.

thekoimaiden (sorry, not sure what else to call you): perhaps then instincts just very strongly mimic emotions at times? I don't know, perhaps I just have a tough time with the idea that a seemingly emotional response is purely instinct (though I'm sure if I wanted to I could argue the side without entirely buying it -- apparently it would make me a good lawyer *shrugs*). I'm curious though, does this apply to _all_ fish to the same degree?

Also curious: isn't territory/territoriality an abstract concept? Or, you did say that for us that part of the brain is larger, is that part large enough in fish to explain them being territorial? I guess that's another thing I struggle with designating purely to instinct.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

For us we have, instinct, emotions, and behavioral. Instinct is natural (moving, breathing, crying as children) emotions (anger, sadness, "love") and behavioral (influenced by enviornment, such as territorialism of objects, materialism, squirmish to certain sights, etc)... which is why we are set differently than other mammals. Fish, don't actually need emotions - they need survival.  survival physically and survival genetically - hence for bettas males will fight each other for turf and girls :lol:


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## blueridge (Jul 1, 2011)

:shock: All I have to say is...WOW!!! What was this guy thinking?!:evil:


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

NoahG said:


> -snip-
> thekoimaiden (sorry, not sure what else to call you): perhaps then instincts just very strongly mimic emotions at times? I don't know, perhaps I just have a tough time with the idea that a seemingly emotional response is purely instinct (though I'm sure if I wanted to I could argue the side without entirely buying it -- apparently it would make me a good lawyer *shrugs*). I'm curious though, does this apply to _all_ fish to the same degree?
> 
> Also curious: isn't territory/territoriality an abstract concept? Or, you did say that for us that part of the brain is larger, is that part large enough in fish to explain them being territorial? I guess that's another thing I struggle with designating purely to instinct.


Lol. Is okay. You can call me Izzy or Koi. Either works.  

Maybe one of the reasons you're seeing fish instinct as fish emotion is because the instincts are foreign to you. I know you would like for fish to have emotion, but they just don't. The science isn't there, and anecdotes are just that. Stories. I'm sorry. I would love it if my fish could return my love, but they just don't. The brain capacity isn't there. It's not going to vary from species to species. Fish diverged before the brain capacity to feel emotion had evolved. 

Territoriality in the aqauria is a leftover instinct from the wild days when resources were scarce and each fish had to keep other fish away from resources such as females, food, or shelter. It is a tradeoff of size of personal resources and amount of time spent defending that territory. But this tradeoff is not a conscious decision by the fish; it is an evolved response to resources. It is different for many species, yet within the same species territories are often about the same size. This is because it is programmed in their brains. 

ETA: Fish aren't the lowest animals that display territoriality. Many insects are known to display it, too. 

Same thing with schooling/shoaling behaviour. It looks like the fish are buddies, but they are just trying to stay together to avoid predators, real or imagined (in the aquaria). 



> Fish, don't actually need emotions - they need survival. :smile: survival physically and survival genetically - hence for bettas males will fight each other for turf and girls :lol:


Well said, Sena! Fish don't need emotion to survive, thus they don't have them. In terms of energy it takes a lot to have a large brain capable of emotion. That's why fish don't need to eat as much as mammals. Especially sedentary ones (I'm excluding tunas and many huge oceanic fish here).


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

All right, thanks, haha, I feel awkward using someone's full username.

I think it's more that some reactions and such just seem so emotional opposed to instinctual. I suppose I don't really care one way or another as to whether they have emotions, and I don't really care whether they love me or not, there's just been times when it has seemed my fish were actually angry (seems the most common "emotion" I've (thought) I've seen).

Also, I was more curious if it varied as I know brain structures can vary among, say, primates. Wasn't sure if brain structures also varied amongst fish species (i.e. if there were higher-evolved fish species, I guess is what I'm saying).

My thinking as regards territory and territoriality is that the concept of a territory (i.e. "this space is mine, that space is yours" so to speak) is kind of abstract. At least, as far as I'm understanding. I know territoriality is instinctive and relates to resources and mating, but the way I understand it is that defining an actual territory is kind of abstract. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems just as abstract as other things that I've heard are "too abstract" (in other discussions, not this one).

I did understand that schooling/shoaling was instinctual: safety in numbers, need to look bigger, that sort of thing. That's especially apparent when a school/shoal seem "nervous" or insecure when there are bigger fish around (even if those bigger fish are doing nothing to them).

I really only have a couple of hang-ups in regard specifically to fish (and then that one curiosity as to whether brain structures vary at all).

ETA: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding territoriality as it applies to fish? Perhaps it's more to do with their response to coming across fish of the same species/similar looking fish that makes them territorial as opposed to defining a territory? Or...maybe I'm just thinking in circles here...


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

NoahG said:


> All right, thanks, haha, I feel awkward using someone's full username.
> 
> I think it's more that some reactions and such just seem so emotional opposed to instinctual. I suppose I don't really care one way or another as to whether they have emotions, and I don't really care whether they love me or not, there's just been times when it has seemed my fish were actually angry (seems the most common "emotion" I've (thought) I've seen).
> 
> ...


Your fish could have seemed that way to you, but I think that's just humanizing (nothing really wrong with that if it helps you connect with your fish). Personally, I think bettas always look mad. lol. Upturned mouths always look grumpy/angry to me. It could have been the angle at which he was holding his eyes appeared to give his brow a furrow (microexpression of anger in humans), and your brain interpreted that as anger. 

Oh yes. Brain structures do vary among fish species. (I'm sitting here with my Ichthyology textbook looking at the brains of a sturgeon, trout, minnow, bowfin, catfish and elephant fish, and they all look pretty different.) As does intelligence. Elephant fish (Mormyridae) have some of the proportionally largest brains in the fish world; they are also some of the smartest fish. They use electrical currents to establish territories, communicate, and hunt. Really neat little guys. It's a shame they are sooo freakin' hard to keep. 

It's actually not that abstract. It's more like a fish finds a resource rich spot and defends x meters around that spot. The distance and what to look for are programmed. If it weren't an instinct than the parents would have to pass the learning down to their child. I don't know of any instances of that happening in the fish world. 

PS. I've really been enjoying this. Fish physiology and behaviour is something really interesting, and I rarely ever get to talk about it. ^-^


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: I like how this is becoming to be more of a well rounded opinionated chat, and not "no you're wrong fish don't have any emotions because...." so on so forth x.x There's been times like that :3 so I like this thread ALOT now!!! lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Well, don't make bettas get "angry" when they see another male? But then again, it's probably instinct, not emotion. 
About birds: what I have observed. For quite awhile we had a nesting pair of ducks in our neighborhood. They would pick a different neighbor's bushes to nest behind every year. They were so cute, walking down the street side by side like an old married couple. Unfortunately, they thought our pool was their private pond. Some neighbors became angry and one even threatened to kill them for doing what comes naturally to them. Last year the female was found dead behind our clubhouse. I didn't see her but I was told about it. I don't know if someone killed her or she got attacked by something or if it was natural causes. Anyway, the male duck seemed to greive the loss of his mate. He would walk up and down the street looking for her. It broke my heart because, to me and maybe I'm anthropomorphising, he looked sad.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh, no, haha, it wasn't an "expression", but rather actions that seemed angry to me. For example, Ezra's reaction any time I touch his tank -- first time I held my finger against the glass for any length of time he flared at my finger, but then when I pulled it back he turned and then came at _me_ flaring. Or when I had them set up to where Ezra was in the middle and Beb and Hai were on each side; at first he would pay about equal attention to them, but then he seemed to favor Beb and focus more on here and I personally witnessed Hai having a fit, basically, when he swam from watching her for a second over to focusing on Beb. She was biting and attacking the glass and everything. That was what I meant by angry. Granted, that first one could be territoriality.

Okay, I was curious because I remember hearing once that sharks were among the more intelligent or evolved or...something...fish. I didn't know that about Elephant fish (actually didn't know much about them at all). I was mostly curious because of sharks (I'm a big shark guy, haha).

Ohhh, okay. That makes sense. I guess I was making it more complicated than it really was then.

As for your PS: well, I'm almost always up for a physiology and behavior discussion -- I find it interesting as well. Haha, actually, when I was thinking of going the biology/behavioral route sharks, specifically, were one of my considered focuses.

Sena: hahaha, I know what you mean -- I've been on forums where it seems that opinions against the majority/the "forum leaders" were dismissed or the person holding them was ganged up on and deemed by everyone to be wrong because they did not line up. So this is refreshing for me, personally.

dramaqueen: I've heard that geese will grieve their mates if one passes as well. I think a number of parrots have been seen to grieve as well. It's been a while, however, so I could be wrong.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

To anyone who thinks animals don't display emotion or emotional intelligence: look at elephants. They grieve for their lost ones and also avoid areas where one of their own was killed.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

NoahG said:


> Oh, no, haha, it wasn't an "expression", but rather actions that seemed angry to me. For example, Ezra's reaction any time I touch his tank -- first time I held my finger against the glass for any length of time he flared at my finger, but then when I pulled it back he turned and then came at _me_ flaring. Or when I had them set up to where Ezra was in the middle and Beb and Hai were on each side; at first he would pay about equal attention to them, but then he seemed to favor Beb and focus more on here and I personally witnessed Hai having a fit, basically, when he swam from watching her for a second over to focusing on Beb. She was biting and attacking the glass and everything. That was what I meant by angry. Granted, that first one could be territoriality.
> 
> Okay, I was curious because I remember hearing once that sharks were among the more intelligent or evolved or...something...fish. I didn't know that about Elephant fish (actually didn't know much about them at all). I was mostly curious because of sharks (I'm a big shark guy, haha).
> 
> ...


I think what you were witnessing with your bettas was extreme territoriality. One thing fish can have is different personalities (but I don't need to tell a betta forum that, lol). It has been documented in other fish, too. The general personality types roamer and sitter. The roamer is the typical type A personality: always in the middle of the action, always up and moving. The sitter it your typical type B personality: likes to sit back and observe the action. This has been documented in all kinds of fish from goldfish to trout to sunfish. 

Sharks do have a very different brain structure from bony fish, but they also have a very distant relationship to bony fish. Sharks diverged before the ancestors of land creatures diverged! In my Ichthyology course we dissected a shark, lamprey, and a freshwater drum. The shark's brain was by far the most developed. They are fascinating creatures to study, but I still prefer my bony fish better (that is also where the majority of my knowledge is). I guess the closest bony fish to a shark would be the tunas and billfishes, and I do love to study those guys. Powerhouses they are! 

I actually have a BS in Fisheries Science. I would love to get my masters in fish behavioural studies or conservation. There was a guy in my class that was also a big shark buff. He said he watched shark week as a kid and never gave up that fascination for sharks. I think he ended up getting an internship to work with sharks in Florida. 

Sena: I agree. This is a wonderful debate/discussion. A little bit of emotion. A little bit of science. I really like this forum. I have been on some very confrontation forums, and I just didn't feel comfortable posting. 

DQ: I know that some birds mate for life. Don't know which species, tho. I honestly have no experience with birds as pets or scientific study subjects, so I can't really tell you more. I think there are some bird people floating around here (lol lame pun). You could try asking them.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I know barn owls mate for life and I think ducks AND geese do too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

koi maiden, I know about the confrontational ones - especially if someone asks for your opinion, then says "NO you're WRONG!". Makes it seem pointless. An opinion is not fact, it is just that: an opinion.

Also I have seen geese pair up, along with ducks and swans. I think they are a mating pair. One set of geese here, came back each time and had cute lil' babies!!! ^.^ My friend Jessica and I used to feed them frozen bred. They were actually really friendly. Something happened one year... The pair never came back and instead a group of vicious geese were about so we stopped feeding them and had to avoid them.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I also think that elephants are the perfect example of emotion. When one of the herd dies, the other elephants bury the body and cover it in leaves. According to an article I read, when a mother's calf dies, she is visibly upset. Her eyes are sunken and ears drooping; grieving in a way. That article also says that they often revisit the site of the burial. How sweet! 
http://www.andrews-elephants.com/elephant-emotions-grieving.html


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I think I will rename this "Bad Betta Article/Do fish have emotions?". lol


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Higher mammals such as elephants =/= fish, reptiles, etc.

Please decide whether you're going to be opinionated about this or scientific...if you're going to be scientific then realize that they are more facts and not opinions. If I stated my opinion in any of my papers I would have had my butt kicked out of university ages ago.

From doing various experiments from insects and fish all the way up to dogs and sea lions, I can assure you that brain construction and priority are vastly different.

The word "emotion" has a definition that not many people understand. The main part being is that emotion requires a conscious forethought or experience. The rest is just purely instinctive and/or physiological behavioural response.


For example, almost all animals experience pain because it is a physiological response to "something is wrong with the body". However higher mammals experience suffering and can respond to it with "crying" (i.e. a fawn I worked with).

I'm not saying any more than this unless people are interested in hearing facts vs an opinion.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

We're just stating opinion and fact lol. Like we pointed out, instinct over emotion - because emotion cannot give animals like fish a means to survival :3 so go ahead and jump in :lol:


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Would the incident with Hai have been a territorial response as well? I mean, that's the only time I've witnessed her do that and I often saw her watching Ezra when she was over there, and now she often watches Kostya. I've only seen that response once. Or would that be connected to competition for resources (in this case, mating)?

Ah, I had forgotten about the whole sharks v. bony fish thing...my bad. But...eh, like I said, I'm a shark guy so I'm always willing to listen about them, haha. Okay, so I had learned correctly that they had more developed brains compared to other fish and, yea, fascinating to say the least! And no doubt on the tuna and billfish -- part of why billfish are a difficult and dangerous game to fish for!

That is really cool, and Shark Week started my fascination as well. Is that what you're planning to do then? Work towards your Masters?

As to the bird discussion: I believe some parrots mate for life as well...I could be wrong, however. I think I've heard of it specifically with African (I think the Congo) Greys.

bahamut, I think lately we _have_ been discussing facts -- a bit of opinion as well, but one could argue that's down to interpretation and I think now it's directly tied into the discussion of the facts (i.e. discussing for clarification). I will say, however, that your bit on the definition of emotion was interesting, but I think not many people understand it because it's not a definition you're going to find readily in the average dictionary -- most people aren't going to know the more elaborate/in-depth definitions of commonly used words.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> Higher mammals such as elephants =/= fish, reptiles, etc.
> 
> -snip-


+1! There is a large difference between elephants and fish (despite the fact that there is an elephant fish lol). Mammal intelligence and emotion is a very interesting topic, however I'm not well-versed in it enough to debate it. But I love learning about scientific studies in it. 

You are very right in the definition of emotion. I believe that is a more scientific definition than most people are accustomed to; however, it is the one we should be using in this discussion. 



NoahG said:


> Would the incident with Hai have been a territorial response as well? I mean, that's the only time I've witnessed her do that and I often saw her watching Ezra when she was over there, and now she often watches Kostya. I've only seen that response once. Or would that be connected to competition for resources (in this case, mating)?
> 
> Ah, I had forgotten about the whole sharks v. bony fish thing...my bad. But...eh, like I said, I'm a shark guy so I'm always willing to listen about them, haha. Okay, so I had learned correctly that they had more developed brains compared to other fish and, yea, fascinating to say the least! And no doubt on the tuna and billfish -- part of why billfish are a difficult and dangerous game to fish for!
> 
> ...


I don't know enough about betta behaviour (I've never even had females lol) to answer your specific questions. I'd ask one of the breeders around here. 

I wish I had some good recommendations for some interesting shark books for you. My only fish books are about overfishing and just general fish encyclopedias. Do you have a diving certification? I bet diving with sharks would be awesome. Although if I was going to dive with Chondrichthyes I'd rather dive with mantas. lol less teeth

I'm just out of undergrad now, but I'm going out for my masters in about 2 years. I've got a good job here in my hometown, so I'm going to work off some student loans first. I would love to get my masters in something with either invasive species, conservation, or behaviour. From there I would like to get my PhD.

As to the opinion v fact part, I was under the same impression that Noah was. We have both facts and a little bit of opinion. The opinion is there because science can't always give us all the answers. Trust me; it's trying, but there are still things we don't know yet.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Noah, usually what you see is mainly instinct... Now see, with mating instinct for fish, we see as love between humans - it's all humanization, which I think is just fine  There is no one in the world who can tell me "fish don't have emotions they're useless" because so what if they don't have emotions? I give my fish a look of emotion, and it just makes it better to care for them because then to ME they FEEL better, and are GRATEFUL


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Haha, that's cool -- I'm thinking perhaps it is connected to mating. Mostly a curiosity, but not a pressing one I suppose. It's not become an issue now that I have them set up one male-one female.

It's all good, I haven't had too much time to do any recreational reading anyways -- I've had a Betta book from a co-worker for _weeks_ now and I haven't read much in it, heh. Not to mention school starts up again next week, so even less time then. As for the diving certificate -- nah, I wish! But diving with sharks is, for sure, on my bucket list, so to speak. Both in and outside of a diving cage. :-D Some day...

Hey, that sounds like a plan, especially if you have a good job now. Personally I'm sort of working on it as I go...especially because I _don't_ have a good job now (trying to work on that though). When I was thinking of going the behavior route I was thinking at least a Masters, perhaps a PhD as well. Now if I get a Masters it'd be an MBA (with no idea yet what to do with it).



thekoimaiden said:


> The opinion is there because science can't always give us all the answers...there are still things we don't know yet.


Exactly. That and there's more to science than just the facts, hence peer-reviews and such. Facts only go so far: if that's all there were, and that was all that mattered, then there'd be no reason for discussion.

Sena, I get what you're saying. I didn't really think it was love that I was seeing -- I guess the closest emotions I would say it looked like was anger, perhaps jealousy. I can see such a reaction being attributable to mating instinct or competition over resources now, however. Just had to put it under the right light (sometimes takes a bit to find that light).


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: well, like I said I don't care if they have emotions or not. Because I sympathise with their pain, I've humanized them. Since I've humanized them, I'll cry when they die x.x


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## LittleBettas (Jul 23, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> :lol: well, like I said I don't care if they have emotions or not. Because I sympathise with their pain, I've humanized them. Since I've humanized them, I'll cry when they die x.x


This is always my point.... whether or not they have emotion is a HUGE question, but in the end... it doesn't really matter... WE as humans have emotion, and part of that emotion SHOULD be feeling the pain and suffering of others, whether human or not
and just because you sympathised with their pain doesn't mean you've humanized them.... you are simply being human... and all living things HAVE to feel pain, at least to some degree (how else would they know when not to do something because its harming them), as humans, we have emotions we connect with pain, and just because we feel sad when our pet feels pain does not mean we have humanized them.... 
maybe saying your fish is happy is humanizing them.... but then again... fish do get "happy" and they do get "sad"... when we feed our fish they get excited to eat... when our fish are sick they act lethargic... we tag emotions to this more to help us better connect what they are going through


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

LittleBettas said:


> This is always my point.... whether or not they have emotion is a HUGE question, but in the end... it doesn't really matter... WE as humans have emotion, and part of that emotion SHOULD be feeling the pain and suffering of others, whether human or not
> and just because you sympathised with their pain doesn't mean you've humanized them.... you are simply being human... and all living things HAVE to feel pain, at least to some degree (how else would they know when not to do something because its harming them), as humans, we have emotions we connect with pain, and just because we feel sad when our pet feels pain does not mean we have humanized them....
> maybe saying your fish is happy is humanizing them.... but then again... fish do get "happy" and they do get "sad"... when we feed our fish they get excited to eat... when our fish are sick they act lethargic... we tag emotions to this more to help us better connect what they are going through


Well said.:-D


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

This may not be a particular helpful response, given that I humanise everything from fish to teddy bears to the 14-year-old dishwasher that finally gave up the ghost yesterday. 

At the very least, animals seem to have a physical reactionto certain stimulus. For instance, when a rat is very "happy", for instance because you are scratching his fat furry rump in just the right spot, he will start to brux (grind his jaws together furiously), then boggle (grind his jaws so hard it makes his eyes bulge in and out of the sockets). It's been noted many times that a rat whose cagemate has died will go into a form of mourning - lethargy, loss of appetite and general sad-seemingness. When my rat Jekyll got sick, his brother Hyde cuddled up to him and kept him warm and comforted. 
Now, of course, I may be seeing and interpreting this through the lens of human emotion - that sort of behaviour looks to me like a human mourning or comforting. For all I know, it is something very different in a rat - but then again, maybe it isn't. It certainly doesn't seem different (although I do acknowledge I've never seen a human boggle because they were happy). 

As for fish, I don't know if they feel emotion, but they certainly give off physical signs. They get 'excited' about food, 'curious' about new toys, 'angry' about invaders. I've seen my girls seeming to cuddle together after one was ill, or when I changed the tank around (schooling behaviour from bettas?). I doubt it is emotion the way we understand it, but then, what defines emotion? Is it just because we have words to describe it? Sometimes emotion feels like a physical sensation; for instance, grief feels like a physical hurt to me. I can understand it and rationalise it (I know that I am experiencing grief, in those situations) - is that what separates humans and animals? 

I don't know. I'm not a scientist. I just enjoy thinking I've made my rats happy, and that they are grooming me back because I'm "one of the boys." 

Sorry if that rambled.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

oh no!!! not the dishwasher :-( 

Actually my females Marge and Tina, have never fought. When I got them as only 2, (before getting Zebra and Rose to complete a sorority) they were the bestest friends ever o_o I have never even seen other fish do that, let alone bettas. They "check up" on each other, and back each other up. When Madame (r.i.p.) bullied Marge, Tina would actually get in the middle of it and detour Madame


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