# Melano Butterfly HM x Red VT



## hrutan

Sire:



Dam:



My goal is to create a line of melano butterfly VTs to this standard. HM was introduced both to introduce the melano genetics, and to improve the form. I will be selecting three pairs from this spawn and concentrating on a different aspect for the offspring of each. If I cannot find three pairs with the traits that I'm looking for, I will spawn these two again.

All pairs will be selected for general form quality and vitality, and lack of irids. They will be re-crossed in 3 generations.

Line #1 will concentrate largely on quality of melano
Line #2 will concentrate largely on quality of butterfly
Line #3 will concentrate solely on form, with clean color a secondary consideration


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## hrutan

Pair was put together 9/30/2014, and spawned on 10/2/2014.

I used a 10 gallon aquarium partially filled with about four gallons of aged water, and added IAL and some floating plants. When the pair was introduced, they both were ready to go, so the female was released immediately.

Female was bowing and dancing like mad
Male was flaring and strutting

It was a joy to watch. They began playing chase, nothing to serious. Behavior progressed over two days - it took a while for the male to figure out what he wanted. He kept leading the female to the nest, then overreacting and chasing her away. Then when they practiced embracing, he wrapped around her back. I about died laughing.

Then, finally:


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## BettaMummy87

I love that confusion in showing the nests. Makes me laugh everytime! Can't wait to see the babies from this and the progressive spawns.


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## hrutan

Poppa had way too many eggs. A hilarious amount of eggs, in fact. A terrifying amount of eggs. He couldn't keep them all in the nest, not even close, and they were falling as fast as he got them up.

I asked for advice but didn't get a reply for too long, and in a combination of anxiety and curiosity, created an artificial hatchery. THANK GOODNESS, poppa accepted me siphoning some of the eggs out without going berserk and eating the rest. I took maybe a third of what was at the bottom. Probably around 100 eggs.



An artificial hatchery is quite simple. Take a shallow dish, or in my case, not having one, a small plastic QT tank, float it in a larger, heated tank, place the eggs in, and just barely cover them with water. Cover the top of the chamber to keep humidity high. I had to wedge the container to keep it from tipping.



Every 6 hours or so, I very gently agitated the eggs by using an eyedropper to squirt water around, causing them to move and rotate. This was to mimic what poppa was doing in the other tank - taking the eggs out, mouthing them, spitting them back up in the bubbles, picking them up as they fell. Even though the guides mentioned nothing about this (aside from warning that aeration would chill and kill the eggs), I figured leaving them still left opportunities for fungus to grow.

Most of the eggs hatched out, but seeing them and taking pictures was a challenge. I will post more a little later today.


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## hrutan

Here's a picture of the hatchery from the side, so you can see the depth. Maybe a centimeter of water.



This is a shot of the hatchery from the top. The eggs are beginning to hatch. Sometimes an egg would dance around, which was quite interesting to watch. Most of the dark ones appear to be dead, but I didn't want to remove them until I was pretty sure the hatching was complete:



Once I was pretty sure hatching was complete (I waited 24 hours), I used an eyedropper to remove the dead eggs, and placed them in a white dish so I could check for fry. None of the eggs that I removed were white; most were a golden brown color. I had to be very careful, and even then sucked up a fry by mistake. He got deposited back in the tank. A few dropperfuls of aged, heated water were necessary to retain water depth.

For some reason, photobucket has decided to eat the picture of the dish and redirect it to something else. :roll:


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## hrutan

Poppa is still tending. His nest has partially dissolved and scattered around, and he's rounding up the eggs and putting them all in one spot:



When hatching began, he got chubby. I was worried, but since there were a number of infertile eggs in the hatchery, I figured he was probably eating dead eggs. Fry began to "hop" from the nest, make a short arc in the water, and then dart back up into the bubbles, so I knew there were plenty in there. I left poppa alone to do his thing.


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## hrutan

This is poppa on day #2. He's still getting the hang of things. Sorry for the shaky camera:



As time went on, the number of eggs at the bottom decreased. A slight film developed on the surface of the water, which seemed to help keep them in place.

It was nearly impossible for me to see the fry in the tannin-tinted water. I couldn't see if they were tail down or to the side, because I couldn't see them unless they "hopped" out of the nest.


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## hrutan

They'd spawned Thursday. Poppa was looking suspiciously chubby Sunday night, and I was desperate for quality sleep because I'd been leaving a light on the tank, so we took poppa out. I'm not one for anthromorphizing most of the time, but doing that made me feel like dirt. He moved back and forth in his tank, pushing at the glass in the direction of the fry tank, and darted around. It was clear he was agitated. Argh.

Of course, this morning I can see the fry. And lots of them are TAIL DOWN. But it's too late now, so we'll see how it goes.

At some point, I want to try the father-in method, but not for my very first spawn.


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## hrutan

At the same time that I took out poppa, I was prepping a 2nd 10-gallon for the artificial hatchery. I lined the bottom, one side, and the back with white paper, and filled it with 4 gallons of aged water. Maybe I can't see the fry very well in the nursery, but darn it, I need pictures of _something_...

Transferring the fry was terrifying. I'd used all of the same water, so I just floated the hatchery in the tank until I was sure the temperature matched, tipped it, and gently poured them in, all the while using an eyedropper to rinse plastic as it was exposed to make sure I didn't "beach" any fry.

This photo is of about half of the artificial hatchery batch:


Close-up!


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## hrutan

After I was done transferring and removing, I put a few drops of infusoria in each - I have cultured it in a separate container.

*INFUSORIA CULTURE:*
One glass jar (I used a pasta sauce container).
Tank water from the bottom of a planted tank.
A few yellowing aquatic plant leaves.
Left covered in a sunlit spot for 2 weeks.

The water has turned yellowish green, filled with lots and lots of yummy microorganisms.

I also have a vinegar eel culture:

*VINEGAR EELS:*
1 jug apple cider vinegar
1/4th apple, sliced
Starter culture
Spring water

- Pour out 1/3 to 1/2 of the apple cider vinegar, and replace the vinegar with conditioned water. I used spring water, because my tap water is bad.
- Add the sliced apple
- Add the starter culture
- Stick it in a cupboard and forget about it (I left the cap cracked so fresh air could get in)

I started the vinegar eel culture on 9/20, and it is now _teeming_.

In addition to those slow-growing cultures, I also have walter worms and micro worms. The instructions for culturing each are the same. Note, walter worms are somewhat smaller than micro worms, and will be edible when the fry are smaller.

*WALTER WORMS AND MICRO WORMS:*

Cooked Oatmeal OR Masa Flour OR Wet Bread
Active Dry Yeast
Starter Culture

While most people choose to use oatmeal, I used Masa Flour (corn flour) for my culture medium, because it is said to smell better. Having sniffed what I purchased versus my now mature cultures, I can tell you both that micro worms smell like hell no matter what, and that they smell _less _like hell with masa flour than with oatmeal. Also, walter worms smell better than micro worms.

- Mix the masa flour with spring water until you get a loose paste. Not too thick, but not liquid, either.
- Spread the starter culture on top as though buttering toast.
- Add just a sprinkle of active dry yeast.

The yeast will naturally liquefy the culture as it goes along, so if you notice your culture getting too soupy, add a small amount of cooked oatmeal or masa flour (depending on what you used), and stir it in. You're not going to hurt your worms.

There's no need to add more yeast.

In 2-3 days, the worms should be crawling up the sides, ready to harvest.


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## spaceyJC

So this is your first spawn? Cool! I'm definitely going to subscribe


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## hrutan

Yep, first spawn. Which probably means I'll screw it up somehow. But if I do, hopefully people can learn from it.


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## amphirion

very nice. looking good. next time though, i would recommend lowering the water by half. the reason why the male struggles to put all the eggs up into the nest is because of the constant up and down movement that he has to go through to reach the eggs/fry at the bottom and then go back up to the top to repeat. lowering the water will save him a lot of energy and he can focus a little more on the nest. completely sealing the tank with wrap/cover will prevent the nest from breaking up as well.


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## hrutan

I had it at around 5 inches. You recommend lower?


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## amphirion

that was 5? looked a bit more than that-- 3.5 to 4" is how high i fill my breeding tanks.


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## hrutan

Pretty sure it was 5" - the tank's 12" and that was a little less than half. Unless I am drastically mistaken and it's a 14" tank, in which case it'd be 6".


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## spaceyJC

hrutan said:


> Yep, first spawn. Which probably means I'll screw it up somehow. But if I do, hopefully people can learn from it.


You'll do great. :-D
I can't wait until I can get my first spawn going... I'm impatient!


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## aselvarial

ohhhhhhhh the much desired and anticipated potential VT butterfly spawn!!!! i can't wait to see how some of these little dudes turn out!


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## JHatchett

Defiantly stalking this.


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## hrutan

*Harvesting Vinegar Eels*

There are a lot of different ways on the 'net to harvest vinegar eels. Many guides will tell you to strain them through a coffee filter, but if you do that the smallest of the nematodes will fall through. This is a loss for you, since you need vinegar eels for the tiniest fry, so the smallest ones are the most valuable.

Here's a way to harvest them that allows you to catch even the smallest eel. You will need:

long-necked vessel
filter fiber
conditioned water
mother culture

Filter fiber looks like this:




Pour the mother culture into the vessel you will use for harvesting. If you're using a flask, stop at the point where the neck joins the body. Otherwise, just leave half the neck clear. Stuff some filter fiber in the neck until it squishes firmly against the culture.

Pour conditioned water on top of the filter floss. It should look like this:



The vinegar eels will swim up through the filter fiber and into the conditioned water above. This serves a dual purpose - first, the eels are separated from the vinegar, and second, you get all sizes of them!

You can safely leave the fiber in there until your fry have moved past the stage where you're feeding this baby food.


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## jr591

This is so exciting! Stalking immediately.


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## VivianKJean

stalking stalking stalking stalking

can't wait to see how the fry turn out!


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## BettaLover1313

Subscribing!


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## Tress

Yay you made the spawn thread  Commencing stalking!


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## hrutan

I know I've fed them, but ... how on earth do I know they're _eating_? They're so tiny, it's not like I can tell if their bellies are full...

Also: Ramshorns as bottom cleaners in a fry tank? Y/N? Many of the fry are still spending a lot of time resting.


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## hrutan

The fry in the breeding tank look more advanced than the ones in the hatchery tank. Here's your shaky camera treat of the day. Watch the dots!

Also, um. Don't watch if you're prone to motion sickness. Sorry. I did the best I could.


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## hrutan

I forgot my phone and went back to get it, and I swear there are more fry in there than there was this morning.

Thought I was doing pretty good with 2 10 gallons and a 20 gallon. That is not going to be enough.


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## hrutan

The babies are all swimming around now, so they will get their very first water change today! I'm only going to take enough out to clean up the worst of the **** in the bottom, and then add 2x as much water back.

And, OMG! I can't believe I actually _saw _this...I was watching them, noticing how active they got after I put in vinegar eels and infusoria, and! _I saw one eat a vinegar eel!_ That was so cool!

They are very clearly able to see and observe things. It's neat to see them turn and attend, and their little eyeballs swivel and everything. Wish I had a camera good enough to capture that for you guys. But soon it will be easier - they are already getting bigger.

The ones in the hatchery tank appear to be about a day behind in development. That tank needs a better heater; I'll pick up a new one today, plus another for the spare 20g. Definitely gonna need that tank.


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## aselvarial

ohhhhhhhhhhhh so exciting! I can't wait to see if any good butterfly VT's come out of this! And to hear about the full development is awesome! Keep us updated!


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## bluemango

This is so cool and exciting!! I'm so glad we get to see all the progress!


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## hrutan

Sooo... evening update.

The water change was difficult. Getting the water out without sucking up fry seemed easy...at first. Until I took the vessel I'd used to deposit the water and stuck it on a white piece of paper.



Yea....you try to find fry in that.

Tannins are evil. I thought I'd accidentally sucked up two fry. Two. (2). TWO.

Every time I caught one in the eyedropper to return it, I found two more. Two. (2). TWO. Dos. I'd actually caught in the ballpark of a dozen.

By the way, there's something no one warned me about: They're faster than me. Seriously. The eyedropper is a fry-eating monster, and if you think they're going to just let you suck them up and put them back in their home, forget it.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Lol! Maybe you can treat the water with tannins before you added to the fry tank? That way you'll get the residue

Autocorrect turned tannins into cannons btw, lol


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## hrutan

*Poor Man's Drip Acclimation:*

You can buy yourself a drip acclimation kit, or you can save a bunch of money and make one yourself.

You will need:
1 clean vessel
Conditioned water
Air line tubing
Binder Clip

Get yourself a nice, clean vessel, and fill it with conditioned water. Stash it somewhere above your tank. Put one end of your air line in the vessel, with the end right down at the bottom, and attach it with a binder clip:


Start the siphon in the traditional manner...but have a bucket ready. Once the water's flowing, you need to tie a knot in it.


Tighten the knot until the water flow slows down to a drip, and let the end dangle in your tank.


Use this method for acclimating brand new fish (especially imports), and changing water for fry.


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## hrutan

Oh! Oh! I almost forgot the most important part!

Pictures of fry!!

Here's the guys in the artificial hatchery group:



And here's a few in the breeding tank:


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## hrutan

Well, well, well.

I spoke on the phone with a very experienced breeder, Dean Slater, and discussed this spawn and project with him. He had a look at my male, and said he's not melano. He's superblack, and carrying marble. Crossed with this female, I might get some interesting red/black marbles. We'll see.

His advice was to find myself a good, clean yellow female, preferably a sibling trio. Well...choices are limited. But I'll see what I can do. I'm not 100% sure I understand the genetics behind it, but it's so interesting - I'll learn.


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## spaceyJC

I love how you're giving tips and instructions on how to do things. It's really useful. :-D


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## hrutan

Happy to help.

What? Ammonia rising already?

Funny how some breeders say don't change water for two weeks... yikes. Gotta do it now.


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## imaal

You are performing a real service, hrutan.


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## hrutan

Did a change on the hatchery tank. Added a little extra Prime to the water in both tanks. I did the breeding tank yesterday, and will do both of them tomorrow. I have the whole weekend off so I can really work on all the tanks. It's going to be a nice four days.

At one week old, it's time to change up the babies' diets. I am starting them on walter worms / micro worms, keeping them on vinegar eels for 1 more week, and stopping infusoria now.

*Harvesting Walter Worms and Microworms*

You will need:
Mature culture
Eyedropper or pipette
Small, clean cup
Conditioned water

So you have yourself a tub of goop. Maybe it's microworms, maybe it's walter worms. Whatever it is, it's ready to harvest. Millions of little nematodes are climbing their ways up the sides of the container.



Yum! Fry food! But you don't want to feed your babies the culture medium. You want to separate out the nutritious worms from the junk, so that it won't pollute your tank.

Get yourself a small cup and fill it halfway with conditioned water.



Make sure that your hand is clean of any lotions or oils. Scrape your index finger along the side of the container, where the worms are mostly free of the culture medium, and then swish your finger clean in that cup of conditioned water.

Let the worms settle for a few minutes. Oatmeal or flour should rise to the top, and worms will sink.



Use an eyedropper or feeding pipette to suck them up and give them to your fry.


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## hrutan

Imagine, if you would, sitting on the floor and staring into one of the fry tanks. The little babies are zipping along. Just barely, you can see wiggling microworms on the bottom of the tank. The babies have been very active since their first MW feeding. It's exciting to watch, so you stay, even though you have some other things that need to be taken care of.

One of the babies comes right up to the front of the tank, intent on its business, whatever that might be. Was that...? There's something odd about him, but he's gone before you can figure it out.

Another comes by, and you see it. Thinner than a hair, small as the food that they're eating:

FINS.

Tiny little pectoral fins, barely visible. 8 days after spawn.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Yay!!!


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## Schmoo

Itty bitty finnie fins!


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## TripleChrome

Just read the whole thread. Subscribing to see how the fry turn out.


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## hrutan

Hmm. Somehow the air flow got shut off for some of the filters in the water aging tank, and the ammonia hasn't been removed. That's problematic. I've turned everything back on, but the fry NEED water changes, and I can't be putting in water at 1PPM ammonia.

I think I'm going to steal a filter from another tank and hurry it along.


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## hrutan

The cycle in my aging tank seems to have crashed completely. At the same time, ammonia in my tap water has jumped. I am not thrilled. Right now, I'm stealing water from Mom and Dad's established 10 gallon for water changes.

Note: Test the tap water every time you plan to use it.

Getting the hang of those water changes. Siphon out slowly. Hunt for fry. Turkey baster them back out. Drip water in.

The babies cluster around the drip tube as though it is an event of great excitement. At first I thought I was dripping into their favorite hangout spot, but when I moved the tube, they followed it. Silly little creatures.


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## hrutan

Oh, you photogenic fry, you.


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## xShainax

They are so adorable.


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## nakito

wow! i'm new to betta breeding and this post teaches on everything (without searching online for those long essays)  subscribe to see what the spawn will end up!


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## spaceyJC

I have a question, how long prior to the spawning did you start culturing you Walter Worms and Microworms?

The fry are so cute!!!


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## hrutan

I started them a week ahead of time. The vinegar eels and infusoria I started on 9/20.


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## aselvarial

hrutan, are you planning to list the little dudes for sale here when they get bigger?


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## hrutan

Yes. I'll be offering the more desirable ones for sale here, and in the even that I get something really primo, it'll go up on Aquabid. The rest will go to the local pet store.


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## hrutan

This, of course, assumes I don't screw up and lose the spawn in some depressing fashion. It's early, yet.


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## VivianKJean

I think everything will go fine!

And if it is possible for me, I would also be interested in one of the spawns. Depending on space and where I'm living, etc.


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## hrutan

I've noticed a lot of fry death yesterday and today. There are still absolutely tons of fry left - it looks like maybe 5-10% of them have failed to thrive. My estimate of living fry is still somewhere between 200-300.

It's possible that these deaths are due to the water quality issue mentioned earlier, since I didn't catch it right away. This may also be due to the inherent nature of birth - a certain percentage are going to have birth defects or general weakness. It's likely to be a combination of both of those things.

Most of the dead ones had small bellies, and were, in general, smaller than their siblings. I have been feeding them plenty - in fact, I may have been over feeding them. It's terribly difficult to figure out how much is the right amount.

I remember reading a post at some point about someone asking, "How do I tell if a fry is dead?"

Before doing the morning cleaning, I fed the fry. After about a half an hour, I came back to check on them, and most of the fry were zipping around their tanks. But, some of them were laying limply on the ground.

If they are on their side, they're dead. Guaranteed. The fry want to right themselves, and if they are disturbed by the current they will rather indignantly fix their situation and zoom away.

I used a turkey baster and removed dead or suspect fry, putting them into another container that already had tank water in it. Then I let the contents settle for a few minutes, and used the turkey baster to gently puff water over the little bodies. I watched for movement. If the body moved limply with the current, I assumed "dead," and if it swam, I put it back in the tank.

As awful as it sounds, even if the fry that did not swim weren't dead yet, they probably would be, soon. Better to take them out.

Sorry, little dudes. I really hope you were all dead. And, uh, don't click on that link unless you can handle a little morbid humor. And if that's not allowed, sorry. It's...well, it's appropriate.


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## hrutan

Pretty sure that the issue is water quality, probably from overfeeding. Carefully doing a series of 50% water changes.


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## Crossroads

Sorry to hear about the fry
but thats the best use of that clip I've ever seen.


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## Schmoo

xD Morbid, indeed, but I agree, that is the most appropriate use of that clip. Also, fantastic movie. Also also, I'm sorry about the fry. :c


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## hrutan

It's a thing. I still have tons. Which reminds me, I should note:

The ammonia readings were identical in both tanks at roughly .5-1PPM. There were deaths in both tanks. The larger portion of fry death was in the breeding tank, and as far as I can tell, this was also the larger PERCENTAGE of fry death. The difference between the two breeding tanks, aside from hatching method, was the presence of IAL.

The IAL made "gunk" that looks like greenish brown balls, which I have seen before in the form of residue in other tanks, although not usually as much as was present here. The gunk seemed to...well, trap walter worms and clump up, making worms unreachable to fry, which means I may have been simultaneously overfeeding _and _starving my fry.

There are larger size differences between fry in the breeder tank than there are in the hatchery tank, and the majority of frys that died are smaller. So, an alternate hypothesis is that I got a better hatch rate in the breeding tank. In the hatchery, the weaker fry may have failed to hatch, where in the breeder tank, they hatched but failed to survive.

If spawning day was 10/2, then hatching day would have been roughly 10/4, making them approximately 8 days old when they started dying.


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## hrutan

I think the majority of the die off is finished. There are still some very, very small fish in there that may not make it, but most of the fry now are round-bellied and active. I lost more than my initial estimate of 5-10%, and most of what I lost was in the tank with the IAL and the **** it created.

I don't know wtf that **** was, whether it was some kind of mildew or algae, or what. It formed greenish brown balls. Inside the balls was food, dead fry, or sometimes nothing at all..I've been burned and will stick to tea from now on.

It looks like I am down to around the same amount of fry in both tanks, probably 75-100 in each, for a total of 150-200. Still not bad, especially considering what I _wanted _was 50-100.

Tonight I am hoping to set up a DIY brine shrimp hatchery. If I succeed, I'll post pictures and a how-to. If I fail, I am going to make one heck of a mess!


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## autojoy

This is a really interesting read, thank you for sharing!!! Subscribing, and wishing you & the spawn best of luck!


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## hrutan

No new dead fry this morning. Hooray! Ammonia's under control, and sponge filters are in. Pics tonight.

The BBS hatchery is taking a while...the guide said I wouldn't need to seal it, but it leaked. The sealant should be good to go tonight, so I can start it up.

I stole Phoenix's HOB filter for the water aging tank. Got sick of it holding steady at .25 PPM - hopefully it'll clean up by the time I get home. Even with ammonia under control, it's nice to sit down and do a gentle water change for the babies. Gives me a chance to watch their development and siphon out any junk at the bottom. They don't seem to mind, as long as I move slow.

Over the past couple of days, I've noticed a very large size difference between the largest and the smallest fry. This is even with daily water changes and an excess of food - there doesn't seem to be any reason for such an extreme size difference. I'm making sure to put all sizes of food in there, in the hopes the tiny ones will still be able to get enough to eat when I start adding BBS to their diet.


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## BettaMummy87

Good idea, I think, about mixing the sizes of food. Maybe the bigger fry will be o interested in the bigger meal, that the little ones will be able to snatch up the ickle fryfood.  

Great log so far btw, *o* detailed. Helping me loads in my prep.


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## Schmoo

babiesssss


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## hrutan

*Poor Man's Brine Shrimp Hatchery*

So you don't want to spend $20 for a brine shrimp hatchery, but you need that nutritious BBS for your fry. If you have a few things laying around your fish room, you can save money on equipment. Which is good, because you'll be spending that money on eggs, instead...

You will need:
Air Pump
Air Line
2 Liter Soda Bottle + Cap
Aquarium Sealant

Cut the soda bottle in half:


Drill a hole in the bottle cap:


Run the air line through the bottle cap. Get it as tight as you can - cutting the tube at a 45 degree angle will help with this:


Seal the cap/tubing combo, so that it won't leak. Use aquarium sealant - if you have an air conditioned house, it's gonna need to be immersed. Otherwise, it just needs to be watertight and non-toxic.

Cut a small hole in the bottom half of the soda bottle, screw the cap onto the top part, and nest the two together so that the air line runs through the hole in the bottom:


BBS like a temperature of around 80-82 degrees for hatching. You may find it helpful to float this hatchery in a larger tank. I had to fully immerse and get all the air out, then pour water out of the top part until it stayed level. However, the bottom of the soda bottle makes a perfectly nice stand, as well.

Connect the air line to a pump, and turn it on to aerate.


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## hrutan

And now for the fun part: BABIES!

No new dead fry today. I'm really crossing my fingers that I've solved the problem. 

The fry are growing well. Some are tiny, some are huge. There's a MONSTER in the breeding tank. I wasn't able to get a picture of her (arbitrarily chosen gender), but ...she's huge. Maybe 3x, maybe even 4x the size of the smallest fry. Wooow.

I've given up on figuring out how many are in there.

Here's a top down view of the breeding tank:


And a little close-up:


Here's the more populated area in the hatchery tank:


EXTREME CLOSE-UP!


So tell me. Do you see what I see at the end of those little tadpole tails?


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Yes I do! Eek <3


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## JHatchett

So exciting!

I'm totally keeping a tank reserved for one of these babies.


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## Schmoo

LITTLE CAUDAL FINS! *squeals*


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## spaceyJC

You may have already mentioned this but what kind of plants are you using?


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## hrutan

I started with guppy grass and a bit of duckweed, and a couple of moss balls. Today I added some anacharis (we'll see if it melts).

The plants you add don't really matter as long as they are floaters, you just want something to suck up the ammonia.


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## hrutan

...I think that's guppy grass, anyway. :lol:


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## Charc14

Following!!! Read the whole thing, Cant wait to see these Guys When they are older!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hrutan

It's surprisingly easy to overfeed on BBS. Be careful! Also, those little critters are very odd looking. Finally, food I can see! It looks like 2 weeks from hatching was just about the right time to feed BBS. The smallest fry are growing slowly, but they're big enough to catch the food - barely.

Also, the fry are getting big enough that I can see mouth movements. I just saw one of the big babies yawn.


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## hrutan

Also, fun fact: BBS follow the light.


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## hrutan

I'm alternating between micro/walter worms and BBS. The new yumms seem to agree with the little guys. I swear they put on size overnight.

A big and medium fry:


There are some places where they like to congregate:


When they eat BBS, their bellies turn red:


Oddly, this fry is white. Pardon the algae...


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

don't tell me you gonna end up with white butterflies?


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## lilnaugrim

Nah, it's way too early to be telling color lol. I like the little white one though, he's cute!


----------



## hrutan

The largest ones were taking on a distinctly reddish cast even before I started feeding BBS, but I don't think that's true body pigment so much as being large enough to _see_.

We'll see!


----------



## hrutan

I went home during my lunch break to grab some aquarium sealant, and took a look at my babies while I was there. They've had another growth spurt. They actually look bigger than they did 6 hours ago. :shock: BBS sure seems to agree with them; I can see why it's such a temptation to overfeed.

They've started swimming all over the tank, too, instead of lurking at the bottom.

Having noticed that they didn't have as much enthusiasm for the worms as they did for the BBS, I'm going to try something new tonight: Dry fry food. The guy that sold me the microworms and walter worms sent a couple of freebies along with the cultures, one of which is labeled "Fry crack," with a note stating that fry go crazy for it. :lol: The particles look to be roughly the size of BBS, so out of curiosity I'll see if they'll eat it. If they won't, I'll just scoop the stuff out. Tonight's a water change night anyway.

By Friday, I need to have a third 10 gallon set up. They'll be 3 weeks old on Friday/Saturday, and I am going to separate out the largest fry. If the size gap gets too much bigger, I have the very serious concern that the biggest will start snacking on their smallest siblings.


----------



## Tress

Lol I can only imagine rounding up those fry will be fun


----------



## hrutan

And by fun, we mean frustrating as all get-out. You'd think they'd be slower, with how fat they are! :lol: Well, that bridge will be crossed when I get to it...

I held up a tape to try to measure them. Looks like the largest are about 1/4th of an inch from nose tip to tail tip. Rough guess.


----------



## Schmoo

How exciting!


----------



## AlwaysAnimals

*Congrats!*

I'm going to live vicariously through this awesome journey, lol. SO CUTE! Someday I would like to do this, but it is definitely not a possibility anytime soon. A couple times I ended up with fry from pregnant livebearers I got, and it was amazingly fun. Best wishes!


----------



## hrutan

Ladies and gentlemen, we have dorsal fins.


----------



## Crossroads

Oh my gosh! How exciting! 
Little finny fins!


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yay!!! Cheers!!!!


----------



## hrutan

Something happened in the last couple of days. I'm not sure quite what it was, but my best description is the fry seemed to solidify. They look like itty bitty fish instead of eyeballs-tummy-tails.

You can see the dorsal of this one if you look.


There's a microworm floating over this one's head. He hasn't noticed it yet. :lol: It's difficult to see, but there's a suggestion of rays in his caudal.


It's dinner time!


----------



## lilnaugrim

SO CUTE! I love when the fins start to come in, I think that's my favorite part so far. At least it is in my baby Sparkling Gouramis ^_^


----------



## hrutan

Yes, I grow more excited by the day. Just realized in that first pic, there was also an anal fin. OMG.


----------



## MameJenny

They're all extremely cute!


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wait until they get color!!!! :blueyay:


----------



## Schmoo

BABIES!  And I totally see the rays in that one's caudal!


----------



## BettaLover1313

They're so cute!


----------



## LadyNightraven

They're growing so fast! So cute!


----------



## hrutan

At 3 weeks old, the largest is _almost_ a half inch from tip of nose to end of caudal. They are eating more than I can give them. I need to split my micro and walter worm cultures, and start up a second BBS hatchery. THE BELLIES MUST REMAIN FILLED. I'd only been using 1 BBs hatchery because mine are hatching in 24 hours...


----------



## BettaMummy87

hrutan said:


> At 3 weeks old, the largest is _almost_ a half inch from tip of nose to end of caudal. They are eating more than I can give them. I need to split my micro and walter worm cultures, and start up a second BBS hatchery. THE BELLIES MUST REMAIN FILLED. I'd only been using 1 BBs hatchery because mine are hatching in 24 hours...



XD Greedy babies?! 

Hmm, I had been hoping to get away with just one BBS hatchery... oh dear XD


----------



## hrutan

The bigger worry is the microworms, not the BBs. I don't want to overfeed BBS due to swim bladder concerns, one time a day should be enough. But they need other food between BBS feedings and the micro/walter worm cultures aren't able to keep up with their appetites.


----------



## BettaMummy87

Is there any way to feed them small frozen foods? Like the ones I buy, the adults can't eat one type... I forget what it was, as it is so small they can't see it.... >.>; Fail. I was hoping to give the entire lot I have to fry once they are big enough...


----------



## hrutan

As soon as they get big ebough, I am going to start chopping up frozen bloodworms and working on getting them to accept it. There's nothing preventing it from a nutritional standpoint, but they do need to be taught to eat non-live food.


----------



## BettaMummy87

Ahh, the challenges of parenthood...


----------



## hrutan

I haven't moved the biggest ones out, yet. But my roommate had a look in the tank, glared at me, and said "this must be done." Helpless slave that I am, I'll take care of it tonight. And include pictures.

Not sure how I'm going to actually _catch _the biggest ones. Hrm. I mean, they're too big for a siphon, but too small for a net. **ponderponder** Suggestions are welcome.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Ideas for catching childrens: cup, hand, coffee filter, silk handkerchief (just grab him with it with your hand) or lower water level then use small net


----------



## MameJenny

Maybe catch them with a plastic cup? I do that for newborn guppy and platy fry. If you have some sort of really fine net, that could work, but I'd worry about stressing them out too much that way.


----------



## hrutan

*It's Moving Day*

I settled on a combination of a cup and a brine shrimp net. Catching the babies without a net was absolutely impossible. I had to hunt them down with the net, and then get the net underneath them, swiftly lifting the net until the edge of the net was over the water. Once captured, I moved the nearly submerged cup into position, lifted the net, and moved the baby into the cup. Once I got enough babies in the cup, I moved it to the next tank over, floated it, and repeated with a second cup.

The babies must not have been too stressed out by it. They were perfectly happy to eat dinner while cupped.


----------



## hrutan

...The number in that second fry tank seems undiminished.


----------



## hrutan

One last comment on this...The new tank is under much brighter light, and I'm seeing hints of iridescence on the fry.

It's purple.

Where did _that _come from??


----------



## MameJenny

Ahh, they're so cute. :-D 

Ooh, purple bettas? :-D OK, definitely following this thread now. lol


----------



## hrutan

Oh, and that fry tank? The one that I just moved the fry into, that had been sitting filled with water for days before I got around to sticking a heater in and getting ready?

It sprung a leak right after the babies got released.

No harm done. Caught all the fry and they are floating in their original home. MAN am I annoyed.


----------



## hrutan

MameJenny said:


> Ahh, they're so cute. :-D
> 
> Ooh, purple bettas? :-D OK, definitely following this thread now. lol


They're most likely going to be red with iridescence or some kind of marble, but we'll see. lol.


----------



## Tress

hrutan said:


> Oh, and that fry tank? The one that I just moved the fry into, that had been sitting filled with water for days before I got around to sticking a heater in and getting ready?
> 
> It sprung a leak right after the babies got released.
> 
> No harm done. Caught all the fry and they are floating in their original home. MAN am I annoyed.


I don't blame you lol, I have a 10g with an ever dropping water level, but am unable to find any water lost.

Also yay for purple irid! Maybe they are trying to be like Phoenix


----------



## aselvarial

Ohhhhhh purple! Ok, if they are purple butterflies I so might fly to you and steal them all!  yay purple!


----------



## hrutan

Well, let's see what really happens. I shouldn't get any purple, which is why that purple irid confused the heck out of me. I also think I'm seeing hints of red. I need to swap out the bad tank and move some of them into a 10 gallon that doesn't leak so I can look at them properly under light.

I can't find any consistent information on when they'll start to show real colors. This is just hints of iridescence at the moment.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

hrutan said:


> Well, let's see what really happens. I shouldn't get any purple, which is why that purple irid confused the heck out of me. I also think I'm seeing hints of red. I need to swap out the bad tank and move some of them into a 10 gallon that doesn't leak so I can look at them properly under light.
> 
> I can't find any consistent information on when they'll start to show real colors. This is just hints of iridescence at the moment.


Maybe primes has some blue irids in his genetic background and they're mixing with (Elizabeth?)'s red to make a purple illusion, or maybe pheonix got his game on when you weren't looking ;-)


----------



## BlueInkFish

XD too funny Sayla!!!!


----------



## aselvarial

Can't wait to see these little guys all colored up!


----------



## BettaMummy87

One of my multis looks purple when she is stressed. She is a lightish blue irid (quite a thin layer) over a dark body, with quite a bit of red in coloured up. I think the blue irid over the red makes her look purpleish, without her dominant. healthy dark body colour in place, if that would make more sense here? A blue irid over a red colouring?


----------



## hrutan

It's possible, I can't really tell.


----------



## hrutan

I got some photos of the babies today. The purple iridescence is in fact an illusion created by red skin. Please pardon the dirty tank, I'd just scraped algae and was letting it settle when I decided to take the photos.

They have an obsession with the sponge filter:


You can see some irids in this one. The bottom right looks more turquoise than blue. There are a few like this.


I kept this largely to show iridescence:


This is one of the largest babies. (S)he has more color than the rest. I was thrilled she came out to pay a visit, normally she's hanging out in the back.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Seems like yours are growing faster then mine!


----------



## hrutan

WATER CHANGE SCHEDULE:

20% every day, or 40% if I miss a day. Junk siphoned out every day.

FEEDING:

WEEK 1: Infusoria, Vinegar Eels.
WEEK 2: Vinegar Eels, Walter Worms & Micro Worms
WEEK 3: BBS, Walter Worms & Micro Worms

TANK TEMPERATURES:
78 & 79 degrees Fahrenheit

TANK CONTENTS:
Aged tap water, PH 7.8
Floating Plants


----------



## Nimble

7.8? Isn't that a little high for Bettas?

I'm guessing you live in an area with high PH tapwater, like my area?


----------



## hrutan

Yes, that's the local tap water. I'm not going to mess with PH; it is what it is.


----------



## Nimble

Fair enough. If, and when, I get to the point where I'm going to be breeding, I'll do my best to keep the PH close to 7, probably by using spring water or distilled water mixed with my own tapwater, to lessen the PH and hardness.

But, before I do any of that, I need to get some fish. D:


----------



## hrutan

If you have high mineral content, you can also get an RO kit, then mix that with the local water to re-mineralize. I'd like to do that at some point, but my setup isn't complete enough to worry about luxuries yet. Heat tape first


----------



## aselvarial

oh my goodness, you can see red on the fins now! how awesome!


----------



## Schmoo

So cuuuuute! >w<


----------



## amphirion

for future reference, i'd strongly recommend making an almond leaf extract to help lower the pH. tap water or distilled water, fill a pot, throw leaves in, and let the water boil. once boiling, turn off heat, and leave till room temp. remove leaves and store "tea" in some sort of storage for future use.


----------



## BettaMummy87

Nimble said:


> 7.8? Isn't that a little high for Bettas?
> 
> I'm guessing you live in an area with high PH tapwater, like my area?





hrutan said:


> Yes, that's the local tap water. I'm not going to mess with PH; it is what it is.





hrutan said:


> If you have high mineral content, you can also get an RO kit, then mix that with the local water to re-mineralize. I'd like to do that at some point, but my setup isn't complete enough to worry about luxuries yet. Heat tape first





amphirion said:


> for future reference, i'd strongly recommend making an almond leaf extract to help lower the pH. tap water or distilled water, fill a pot, throw leaves in, and let the water boil. once boiling, turn off heat, and leave till room temp. remove leaves and store "tea" in some sort of storage for future use.



It is my understanding from talking to betta breeders on here that a high PH in and of itself I far less detrimental than adjusting it and risking a spike..?

Can't for the life of me find the threads I am thinkng of, but I know its come up as I am going to be breeding in an area where PH is aroun8-8.4 and hardness around 14-21d, but I was told by breeders in similar situations they have bred just fine in these conditions. All about stability, same as adult fish, supposedly.

ETA: not that this stop me adding IAL/Oakleaves, but still... And I will be moving over to RO once i Have my own unit. But then it should still be stable, so long as a gradual acclimation i used. For breeding, if you kept the adults in tap water, then bred in RO/Altered PH, surely this is going to lengthen the process dramatically, as the fish is going through the change in water, causing stress? Just a thought.


----------



## hrutan

A lot of breeders recommend using IAL extract not so much for the PH change as the good things that it adds to the water. As long as it's added uniformly with water changes, the fish shouldn't be in any danger from swings. But, I've heard that fry that have been raised to adulthood in water with IAL will have to be allowed to adjust gradually to its absence.

The amount of the PH change seems to vary based on the source water. There's not much point in tinkering with PH unless you also tinker with hardness, and messing with hardness needs to be done right or not at all, since you can unbalance the minerals in the water.

I bred with IAL in the water, and then allowed it to disperse with water changes. I'll probably add extract instead next time I spawn, or shred IAL and let it sit in the bottom of the water aging tank so that it's stabilized and ready to go when water change time arrives.

I'm not going to breed and raise fry with RO unless I notice detrimental effects from the hard water. Then I'll have to - very hard water is noted to contribute to fin curling and such, which is not going to be helpful when I'm getting ready to show. Also, if I see a lot of fin curling, I need to know if it's genetic or environmental, which is another reason to go with RO.


----------



## MameJenny

Is fin curling the only bad effect on fry caused by high pH/hard water? I have a very low KH and a relatively high pH (7.6 to 7.8). I've never really tried changing them for my freshwater tanks, and I'd prefer not having to do so.


----------



## hrutan

I'm not sure. There's some evidence that some fish fare poorly due to mineral buildup from water that's too hard. But whether that affects bettas is up in the air. If you don't have trouble with your adult fish, and they are living appropriate lifespans, I wouldn't worry about it all that much.


----------



## Nimble

Bettas are pretty hardy, and can handle waters that are moderately hard and of PH close to 8... but their preferred environment are softer, slightly acidic (6.5-7 PH) waters, similar to their own natural habitats in Southeast Asia.

It's actually not uncommon that some fish from South America and Southeast Asia, who prefer soft, acidic waters are able to handle harder, more basic waters. The reverse is not true, however.


----------



## hrutan

I'm sorry I haven't posted pics in a couple of days. There have been a few changes, and I'll take the time to do a photo shoot tonight.

*Color Notes:*

Only one fry has that really strong red on its caudal, but the rest are now showing hints. It is difficult to say what kind of color mix I'm going to get from this - not all of the fry look red, but they don't look black, either. Maybe blue? But that could simply be that iridescence, again. On very close examination, Mom has blue iridescence in the right light - it's just barely visible. So does Dad, so it's no surprise that all the kids have it.

The larger kids are starting to put on their camo suits - there are few black horizontal stripes in the tank, now.

As far as Dad ... I am starting to have doubts about whether he's really super black, or whether he's melano. He has faint iridescence, and no white on the body to speak of. Yes, he has the butterfly bands, but I saw a chart looking at the different types of black, and "Butterfly Melano" is clearly listed.

When the fry all color up, we'll know for sure. If I get mixes of black and red, the "Red Devil" color combo, or black/red marbles, he's super black. If I get 75% pure black, he's melano and mom's a carrier. If I get no black at all, he's melano and mom's not a carrier.

*Growth Notes:*

The fry in the artificial hatchery are growing faster than the ones in the natural tank. I think this is a food issue. I'm forever overestimating how much food they need, and since there are more fry in the artificial hatchery, I'm more prone to overfeeding that tank.

I am seeing a few intermittent cases of SBD. Not very many, and I don't always see them. We'll see how those babies shape up. If they continue to grow and live well enough, I'll allow them to mature and offer them for adoption.

The larger babies are now swimming to the surface to breathe.

*Progress Report:*

I got the leaky 10g out, and set up my spare. Tonight I'm going to re-try moving the largest fry out. Ideally I'm going to split up the artificial hatchery group - I think if the batch is split in half, I won't need to create another grow out before jarring time.

I've ordered heat tape. It should arrive later this week. Once I have it installed and working properly, I will post instructions.

*Food:*

The babies are still on BBS and walter/micro worms. However, my worm cultures don't like the chill and have reduced production. I'm seeing what I can do to get them going strong again, and it's time to look at new avenues for food. More info on that once I figure out what they'll accept.

*Shopping list:*
32 oz deli cups with lids
Cork


----------



## hrutan

Photo update!

I moved fifty fry from the artificial hatchery to a third 10 gallon:


The activity gave me plenty of chances for some nice shots:


They love hiding in the plants.


This one has something special to show you:


And, more red!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

*squee <3


----------



## trilobite

Cute!! Nice to see vt being worked on
Will be interesting to see what you get both colour and finnagewise


----------



## Tress

Aww cuties!!! They're getting so big


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

(Ventrals guys)


----------



## BettaMummy87

XD So exciting! XD


----------



## lilnaugrim

So cute! They look like little versions of my baby sparklers at the moment! lol!!


----------



## MameJenny

They look like my week old sunset wag platies. :-D


----------



## Pippin

They are so cute! Though the fry in the fourth picture looks like a cherry barb.


----------



## spaceyJC

They are so adorable!!! :-D


----------



## Nimble

Moar babby feesh plox.


----------



## hrutan

I installed heat tape yesterday. Today, I bought one hundred 32 oz and fifty 16 oz clear plastic deli cups from Smart and Final. With lids and after tax, this set me back $50. I am so, so glad that I planned for a large spawn, because I don't know what I would do if I'd assumed a spawn size of fifty. I would probably have to cull "bad" fish as well as those with deformities.

Each water change, I am going to jar a few of the largest, most aggressive fry. They're starting to play tag at feeding time. It's early for jarring, but this should help relieve crowded conditions, and also promote growth in the smallest with the bullies out of the water.

Some have darker bodies than others. Most have red fins. A few have no color at all.

For those who are following this log with intent to purchase - they should be colored up in a couple weeks. Once they are, I'll be making my selections for the next generation, and then creating a sale thread in the Classifieds. People may reserve their fish with a nonrefundable $5 deposit. I'll put your name on the jar and raise them for you, and when they're ready, I'll ship them out. EXPECT TO PAY BETWEEN $20 AND $30 FOR FISH + SHIPPING, INCLUDING HEAT PACKS! That is a lot to pay for a VT. There will be no hard feelings if not many take me up on this offer - it's just that shipping boxes, packing supplies, and the cost of Priority mail add up rapidly. A real figure will be determined once I know how many people want fish, and how much the supplies and shipping will actually cost. The fish themselves are unlikely to cost more than $5 each. I'll provide a breakdown of costs when the time comes.

Again, since they haven't colored up yet, we don't know what they're going to look like. It could end up being an entire spawn of plain red fish and a few butterflies. 

I will not under any circumstances ship until mid-January, no matter the size or maturity of the fish. The holiday rush has begun, and shipping is going to be clogged from Thanksgiving until the New Year. I will not risk my fish being left in a truck in freezing weather over night.

Tonight, I will post a picture tutorial of heat tape installation, and a photo update!


----------



## aselvarial

If you get any VT butterflies that you aren't keeping, I'm definitely interested. And since pretty much no one HAS butterfly VT's, $30 sounds very reasonable.  i'm on the opposite side of the country from you, would you consider holding until mid February or March?


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

^+1


----------



## MameJenny

I certainly don't think $20-30 shipped is unreasonable for a young, well-cared for, high-quality VT.  I'm sure you'll have plenty of customers!

Looking forward to the photo update!


----------



## Crossroads

I'll probably be jumping on the list for a female. Lord knows I don't have room for another male. xD I'm probably going to wait and see what comes out though, so that I have time to prepare and accrue some extra money. Can't wait to see the spawn color up. Seeing as I was tempted to drop 60$ or so to import a Thai red and white marble VT, 20-30$ is nothing. I spend 20-30$ on most of my fish anyway. The least expensive guys I've ever gotten were my females and Natal, Angelos, and "Red Fish" who were all about 4$ a piece after tax. But they were Walmart VTs. Not well bred awesome VTs. So in short? Worth it.


----------



## hrutan

The price warning was more aimed at young folks who don't have a whole lot of money, which is a large portion of the forum. When you're getting your cash from odd jobs, $20-30 is something you have to save up for, and it might take a while. It's been a long time since I've been there, but I still remember when "broke" meant celebrating finding 50 cents for a Coke. :-D

Picture time!



This is my whole setup. The two large tanks on the bottom are a 20 gallon long for my upcoming breeding experiment, and a 20 gallon tall for aging water. The next shelf up has my three fry tanks. The first is the most crowded, the second is middling, and the third is the least crowded ... with 50 fry. I know there's 50 fry, because I counted while transferring them over.

Above the tanks, we have the beginnings of a jar shelf, and then cultures and supplies. The cultures and supplies will have to be moved when I get to jarring seriously; all three of those shelves will be filled with jars from end to end, 4 deep.

...for anyone on the fence about breeding, you should consider that this is my first spawn, and while I got "lucky" to have so many babies survive past the two week mark, you obviously cannot depend on having a nice, 50-100 fry spawn like I'd hoped.

A close-up of fry tank #1. That power strip isn't as close as it looks, don't worry:


I spent 15 minutes trying to get this shot in the photo tank...


Same guy from above:


Several in a cup:


*Color notes:* 
I wasn't able to capture this on camera, but here are my observations.

Body pigments right now vary. Nearly all of them have their racing stripes. Some have dark pigment on their bodies, others do not.

If I could hazard an educated guess, the fin/body coloration pattern means Momma is a cambodian based red. The bodies may take their time filling in as a result.

Most of them have red on their fins, but only in the area next to their body. The outer half of the fins remain transparent. I do not know if this is a butterfly pattern or the natural progression of coloring-in. The exceptions to this rule are the ones with absolutely no color whatsoever in their fins, and the ones that have red fins but a black border instead of a clear one. I am extremely intrigued by this, and hope they keep that pattern.


----------



## Tress

Ahhh so curious to see how they colour in! Even though I likely wont be able to get one since.. you know, Canada. Unless I magically move to the US in the next few months (want to, but doubt it). :< no fishies for me.


----------



## hrutan

*How To: Heat Tape*

_You will need:_
Sharp scissors
Electrical Tape
Pliers

Flex-Watt Heat Tape
Power cord with clip set
Rubber insulating tape set
Thermostat

NONE OF THIS EQUIPMENT IS OPTIONAL. Do not try to short-cut or go cheap. You'll regret it. When assembling and operating any type of electronics, there is risk of shock or fire. So do it right, or don't do it at all.

Heat tape:


Power cord with clips:


Insulating strips:


Thermostat


*STEP 1: MEASURE BEFORE YOU BUY*
Flex Watt heat tape is sold in 1 foot increments. So measure your space, and round up when you purchase your equipment. It will be sent to you in a roll, all of the "units" that you purchase will be a single piece. Don't worry; you can cut it.

Heat tape is sold in two sizes: 11 inches wide, and 3 inches wide. Plan accordingly.

*STEP TWO: TRIM AND PROTECT*

Once you have your heat tape, trim it down to the desired length with sharp scissors. The material is stiff, especially at those two metal bands along the border, so don't use old, crappy scissors. They need to be sharp or you won't get an even cut.

Determine which end you want the power cord to attach. Line the opposite end with electrical tape - those metal strips will conduct electricity, and you need to get that insulated before it gets plugged in:


*STEP THREE: ATTACH POWER CABLE*
The wicked looking little metal clamps that come with the power cable get attached to the metal strips next to the border of the heat tape. Position a clip so that it nests nicely over the metal, and then clamp it shut with pliers. The "teeth" of the clip needs to pierce the metal strip. You're probably not going to be able to do it by hand.


*STEP FOUR: INSULATE*
That power attachment needs to be insulated, along with the exposed copper of the clip. Cover the attachment _completely_ with the insulating tape that you purchased. Conveniently, it's sold in sets of two.


*STEP FIVE: CONTROL*
When plugged directly into the wall, Flex Watt heat tape can reach a temperature of 120 degrees. You can control this with a thermostat. Set the thermostat to the desired temperature, plug that into the wall, and plug the heat tape into the provided power attachment.

The thermostat will come with some kind of temperature probe. Be sure to read the directions - many probes cannot be immersed in water. The type I bought had a suction cup and is supposed to be stuck on the heat tape itself:


In order to determine the temperature to set the thermostat, I put a jar on the heat tape, filled it with water, and floated a thermometer in it. The heat tape needs to be set higher than the desired water temperature - remember, the heat has to travel through the bottom of the jar, and will diffuse in the water. I think I ended up setting my thermostat to 88 degrees.

*STEP SIX: PLACEMENT*
If you want to line a shelf, Big Apple Pet Supply sells this "foil tape" to attach the heat tape to a surface. I didn't bother using that - that is the only piece of equipment that appears to not be mandatory. Its function was not explained. I just rested my heat tape on my shelf...the weight of the jars holds it down.


----------



## Tress

Neat, great job with the How To guides btw


----------



## VivianKJean

As a young person with no money, i would easily save and spend $20-30 on high quality bettas for a trusted breeder/keeper like yourself. 

Someday I will get one from you  Currently, all my tanks a full but as sad as it is they will not be full forever. So i might have to catch the 2nd or 3rd generation.


----------



## hrutan

Or a Phoenix breeding. I'm hoping to do that in about a month, maybe a little less.


----------



## hrutan

Somehow they seemed more adorable than usual this morning. Feeding time!


----------



## hrutan

aselvarial said:


> If you get any VT butterflies that you aren't keeping, I'm definitely interested. And since pretty much no one HAS butterfly VT's, $30 sounds very reasonable.  i'm on the opposite side of the country from you, would you consider holding until mid February or March?


I should be able to do this, as long as it's only a few fish. Right now I am panicking because I have the physical space for about 90 cups, but I have 200 baby fish. If I have a high male to female ratio, that's going to be a big problem. However, depending on what goes on, I should be able to relieve some of the pressure in mid to late December.

Right now I am considering dismantling the females' tank, jarring them, and using that tank for additional grow-out. That's where I am right now. :-?


----------



## aselvarial

Ok, well if the weather cooperates I can take one in mid January. However, I live in Georgia, and our winter (what little there is) tends to hit late January- February. That's really the coldest part of our year. However, it has hit as late as March. Lets hope we have a late (or no) cold this year!  
I'm hoping for a black and red butterfly! VT's are my favorite, I just love the look of the fins, but all the VT's here are very very bland.


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## hrutan

Well, if not this generation, then maybe the next. Don't worry, I'll be working on this project for years.


----------



## BettaMummy87

Do you know of any alternatives to Flexwatt? It is, seemingly, completely unavailable in the UK. :/


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## hrutan

A little looking in a reptile forum turned up this stuff called Vysa-Film. It's really meant for under floor heating but may work for your purpose. Have a look: http://www.fastlec.co.uk/vysa-film-...s-500mm-wide?zenid=ndu7s1i7g6vmjget7tii1lerm1


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## BettaMummy87

Yeah, I was worried about that and water... I may be paranoid. Being a 'mom' has turned me into a giant ball of anxiety.... :/


----------



## hrutan

Contact the company and ask. Most companies are perfectly happy to provide you with the information you need to avoid burning your house down, lol.


----------



## BettaMummy87

Not a bad idea XD Worth a shot at least, that or its back to the rack + sump! Thanks!


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## hrutan

*Beef Heart*

So, your fry have gotten a bit bigger. They've gotten a _lot _bigger, in fact, and you have a lot of mouths to feed. What to do between BBS hatchings?

How about some beef heart? It's cheap, nutritious food for your fry, and they'll go nuts for it. You can find beef heart at most Hispanic butchers, but if all else fails, _very _lean beef or even lamb heart may work as a substitute.

Recipe found in a variety of places on the web, but mostly from Linda Olson.

*You will need:*
Food Processor (this will burn out a blender)
_Very_ Sharp Knife
Beef Heart (about 1 lb)
Resealable Plastic Baggies
Conditioned Water
Fish or Shrimp (about 1 lb)
Garlic (roughly 2 cloves)
Unflavored, 100% Pure Gelatin
+ Anything fish food related that your heart desires. You can use krill, different types of fish or shrimp, blood worms, ect.

Trim all of the fat, valves, sinew, ect. from the beef heart. You want only the meat. Do the same with the fish product - you want only meat, free of bones, skin, or fat. Peel & de-vein the shrimp.

Peel and finely chop the garlic. It's easier to peel it if you leave it in the skin and then crush it between the side of your knife and the counter. That loosens everything up. You can also buy diced garlic at the grocery store.

Chop the meat into roughly 1 inch cubes and add it all to the food processor, along with the garlic. If your food processor isn't big enough, add it in portions.

Add dechlorinated water, enough to allow it to process smoothly.

Blend, adding a little water until it is the consistency of ketchup

Make the gelatin according to package directions. Instead of letting it set, add it as a liquid to your food processor. This will smell disgusting.

Blend until it is mixed thoroughly.

Add this pinkish goo to plastic baggies. Squeeze out all the air and try to get it to lay in roughly 1/4th inch flats, much like the bulk frozen fish food you find at most grocery stores. Refrigerate until it sets - keep note that the center may take longer to set than the edges. Once it is fully set, freeze it.

Feed by shaving pieces off into the aquariums. It will slowly dissolve, and the fry should take it eagerly if you have been able to get them to eat other frozen foods. The gelatin should keep it from fouling your water if you over feed...although with how crazy my fry went, overeating is a bit more of a concern! :lol:


----------



## hrutan

Some of my babies don't have vents, or have only one vent. My suspicion is I kept them on worms too long. Since I am a very naughty, chronic over feeder, some of the fry were probably able to dine only on worms, instead of alternating with BBS like they were supposed to. There is not a chance that this is a bacterial/salt issue like some people claim. Not only do I not use salt, but I clean the tank bottoms once to twice a day. That stuff you see is mostly algae.

I got warned _long _after the fact to avoid worms after the first two weeks. The missing vents are frustrating to me, but not as big of a deal as it could have been, because I already am going to have a jarring issue due to the sheer size of this spawn and will have to make some very tough decisions.

Yes, that's awful, but there's no use in sugar coating it. I have one breeding rack. Of it, three shelves can be used for jarring. The shelves are 9 jars wide, and 4 jars deep. That gives me a _maximum_ of 108 jars, but about 200 fry. Not all of the females will avoid jarring; they are often as aggressive as males. Meaning, if I get an average sex distribution, I will not be physically capable of jarring all of the fry that need it. If my high PH water has skewed the sex ratio more male, I'm screwed.

Right now, I'm watching the spawn. Giving the ones with missing fins a chance to grow them, and hoping to sort out what sex is what before I move to the next step.

Fry with defects - chronic SBD, missing ventrals, ect., will probably have to be euthanized, so that the ones that are easier to rehome can be cared for properly and have a chance to grow up healthy. If you want to breed, be aware that this is something you'll have to do at some point, whether due to an excessively large spawn, or illness, or deformities.

Yes, it's sad. But, even if there was someone willing to take pity on the little guys, they wouldn't live through shipping.


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## Crossroads

Does missing ventrals effect their swimming/health badly? I realize the chronic SBD guys yes. I'm just curious for when I breed that way I can steel myself for culling should this happen. Instead of worms after two weeks what would you suggest along with BBS? Mysis? Beefheart? Perhaps daphnia? I'm really learning a lot from this log so I was curious what you'd suggest.


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## hrutan

Missing ventrals does not affect their swimming or quality of life. It is purely a nutritional issue, and will not pass to their offspring. All it does is make them look odd, and the pet store probably won't take them. Under normal circumstances I would not cull fry based on vents. Even in this situation, I am going to consider each missing ventral case individually. Some fry, even without ventrals, will be otherwise quite desirable, and will be kept to see if they are breeding material. Other fry, even with ventrals, will have some other issue such as tiny size, weakness, or wimpy finnage, and will be culled. I will not be keeping very many fish that are missing vents - but I will keep some.

What to feed after the two week mark along with BBS varies by the breeder. Some suggest starting them on flake food that early. Others start them on grindal worms, if the fry are big enough to eat them. I believe beef heart is a bit more difficult to digest, so I'll do a bit more checking on that and get back to you.


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## Crossroads

If I've been able to upgrade my tanks come the end of this year (holiday bonus + holiday pay), I hope to breed Angelos, my butterfly VT. I hope he'll be a good father. If not, I'll just have to keep him as a pet and try with Abbadon (Armageddon DTPK), Kyprinos(Marble SD), or Loukianos(Blue Marble SD who has a pretty strong black layer and currently supporting a pretty big nest).


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## hrutan

What color is Angelos? If he's something compatible with red, I can keep an eye out for nice, full-finned girls from this spawn. Since their father is butterfly, they should either display or carry the trait. I'm also pretty sure at this point that they'll carry red-based melano (rather than the usual steel-based) so if you want to try carrying that on, I can include a male.

For the DTs, you might want to consider finding a nice HM girl with rosetail characteristics. There will be very little risk of x-factor if the boys don't have excessive branching, and you should get more HM that way.


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## Nimble

I didn't know that the PH of the water could affect the sex ratio of the fish. How does this happen?


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## hrutan

Sex of fish, unlike mammals, is determined at least partially by water conditions rather than genetics. I don't know exactly how it works, but things like PH and temperature both can skew sex ratios one way or another. The fry will eventually "settle" on a sex before jarring age. I've seen anecdotal reports of spawns in high PH water being up to 90% male. One person reported the same number, but female instead. One person reported getting no females at all. :shock:


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## Crossroads

Angelos is my orange dalmatian butterfly that I ended up deciding on from my pairing advice thread a week or two back. 
http://bettapack.tumblr.com/post/102533196813
http://bettapack.tumblr.com/post/102138129408/angelos-was-an-impulse-buy-i-couldnt-leave
If I could spare the space, I'd definitely like a male and female from you! It'd be interesting to see what would come out of an orange dalmatian and a melano red. Another thing that's interesting that I stumbled on while trying to find an answer to red x dal(which usually equals red F1. The person didn't get to F2 as they lost the entire spawn in a power outage.) Melanos being crossed to yellows that I believe carried the dalmatian geno showed up with yellow or orange spots in some cases. With that being said, come your next spawn with Primus and Nimbus I might be interested in taking a(if any) blacks/melanos that show up. If dalmatian can effect melanos, imagine a black butterfly VT with yellow/orange/red spots. This also being noted I'm curious if an inverse "armageddon" could be spawned, a red fish with yellow spots. Since it has been proven that yellow and red can coexist, I'm curious if an inverse is possible.


----------



## hrutan

As for your earlier question, Crossroads, the most common answer is to start switching them off worms and onto finely grated frozen food at 3 weeks, and start them on beef heart at 4 weeks.

For my next spawn, I will try:
Week 1: Vinegar Eels
Week 2: Vinegar Eels + BBS
Week 3: BBS + Frozen Food
Week 4: BBS + Frozen Food + Beef Heart Mix
Week 5 until jarring: BBS + Beef Heart Mix
After Jarring - Beef Heart Mix, Dry Foods

EDIT: I'm going to keep my MW and WW cultures alive, but see how they do without them for a spawn. If the growth is good, might as well avoid this food completely.


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## BettaMummy87

hrutan said:


> One person reported getting no females at all. :shock:


And that right there, is a very scary though to the new betta breeder..... o________o;;;;;;;

Pretty sure high PH skews male ratio up. Yipes. D:


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## Crossroads

For my beefheart, I may have to buy commercially. I don't think my roommate would exactly appreciate the smell of the beefheart mix and I don't have a food processor to my knowledge (my roommate may have brought one but we only ever use my blender so I have no clue)

Another problem I will be facing. I have really hard water that has caused crooks and curls in all the fins of my boys except my plakats. My girls are only spared due to there being Mopani leeching tannins into the water all day. Come spawn time, what is the best option for keeping fins nice? I can collect and bag dried oak and maple leaves locally, get IAL or should I get an extract and add it with my conditioner?


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## hrutan

The beef heart only smelled for a minute or two. The odor was lost with freezing.

If you don't have a food processor, I HIGHLY recommend this thing here: http://www.amazon.com/Ninja-QB1005-FS-Master-Prep-Professional/dp/B006E5A5VO/

It's cheap, simple to use, and has handled anything from meat to ice cubes (the kind you get in bags from the grocery, not the ones from trays) with no issue. Best. Blender. Ever.

BettaMummy: Yeah, I think high PH skews male ratio up, too.

Crossroads: I'm unlikely to get any blacks from F1, since melano's a pure recessive. But if he's actually superblack, there's a possibility. A couple of the fry look a little darker than the rest. I'll keep an eye on them. Primus and Nimbus are taking their time courting, so it'll be a while before I get any out of that pairing.


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## kevinap2

Hrutan, I just put my sorority into a bigger tank and I do have some room in there. Once they reach the age where they could safely be shipped, I would be happy to purchase some of the female culls without vents. I'm not sure chronic SBD fish would be great candidates for a sorority, but the missing vent fish that would otherwise get along fine would be fish I would be happy to give a home rather than have them be euthanized.


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## hrutan

If I have females without vents, they won't be euthanized, since they don't need to be jarred. There will be an adoption thread for those - yours for the cost of shipping. I'm only going to be euthanizing for something so petty as cosmetic issues because of care concerns. If given a choice between forcing violent males to cohabitate, and euthanization, I'll choose to put them down. To do otherwise would be cruelty.


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## Nimble

Again, thanks for the information. That just further cements my desire to figure out how to keep the PH and hardness low for my fish. Most likely, what I'll do, is when the time and money come, I'll order some IAL or pick up Oak Leaves from outside, and as for water, probably a mix of Distilled water, mixed with my local tapwater... probably a 2:1 ratio, then work on aging and conditioning it. I'm not entirely sure the PH of my tapwater, but we live near a river on a limestone bed.... so yeah. It's gonna be hard and basic.


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## hrutan

I've heard good things about tap water / RO mixing for altering hardness and PH. Just be careful that you don't add anything that only temporarily lowers PH. Fluctuations are a big killer.


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## Crossroads

They can take their time, I'd rather them take their time and not get vicious than to hurry and hurt each other. Plus it'll be after winter that I consider breeding when its back to being 70+ outside. I'm stocked to capacity right now so I couldn't take on more if I wanted to(which I do). After I get tanks upgraded (reeeeally waiting for the next 1$ per gallon sale so I can stock up on 10s, maybe a twenty, and a 40 (want to upsize the sorority). If I can, I'd also love to get a smaller TV (the only I have is huge, bulky and old) and a different entertainment center. The one I have is nice but big and bulky and takes up most of my living room(which I really want to reorganize.) My next big thing I want to do is get a python. Changes on my twenties get to hurting after a while.


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## kevinap2

hrutan said:


> If I have females without vents, they won't be euthanized, since they don't need to be jarred. There will be an adoption thread for those - yours for the cost of shipping. I'm only going to be euthanizing for something so petty as cosmetic issues because of care concerns. If given a choice between forcing violent males to cohabitate, and euthanization, I'll choose to put them down. To do otherwise would be cruelty.


Makes sense. I'll keep my eyes open for the adoption thread.


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## hrutan

kevinap2 said:


> Makes sense. I'll keep my eyes open for the adoption thread.


:thankyou:


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## Nimble

hrutan said:


> I've heard good things about tap water / RO mixing for altering hardness and PH. Just be careful that you don't add anything that only temporarily lowers PH. Fluctuations are a big killer.


No, I don't plan on using anything like that. My plan is really just to use waters of different PH and hardnesses to keep the water as close to 7 as possible, and to keep us with an appropriate level of hardness. I'll be sure to do my research, because while I can see using white vinegar mixed with LOTS of water to lower the PH, I'm fairly unsure as to whether or not acetic acid will have any negative effect on the water quality or to the fish or plants.


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## hrutan

Tonight I should be able to sit down and take some good photos, which will be nice. The last few days have been so busy, it seems like all I'm doing is water changes and going to work. At least I've been able to manage the water changes - but then, I'll miss out on sleep to keep the babies healthy.

As a rough guess, the largest fry are close to an inch long. A few - very few! - have been showing more color. One of those colored ones is showing vertical bars. I'll probably have to pull him out, soon.

They have been growing like weeds since I started them on beef heart. I highly recommend using it, if you can find the ingredients. This stuff is awesome, and it's so easy to feed. I throw some shavings in at bed time, and they're still nibbling and chubby in the morning. :-D Then I vacuum up what's left, and give them some more before I leave for work.

I'm thinking about making a second batch of beef heart, but instead of beef and fish, I'll make it beef and shrimp. That should give them a bit of variety.

I'm still feeding BBS, but since I'm only using one hatchery, they only get it every couple of days.


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## Nimble

If you can't get beef heart, what would you recommend as a suitable replacement?


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## hrutan

The absolute leanest beef that you can find. Since it's going in a blender, it probably doesn't matter if it's ground beef or steak, as long as it is _lean_. But unfortunately, that will be more expensive. Do some stalking in ethnic markets if you have the leisure, before resorting to substitution.


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## Nimble

None too many ethnic markets up here, sadly. They're commonplace in SoCal, and in Texas where I used to live, but uncommon here. But I'll keep my eye out next time I'm at the bigger grocery store.

I'll also do some research to see if chicken heart or liver would be an acceptable substitute, but like you said; I'll try to use very lean beef if I can't find beef heart or a better substitute.

That said, this is still at least months away before anything such happens.


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## kevinap2

What about the commercially available frozen stuff? I see the San Francisco Bay brand at various pet stores all the time. Is it the same stuff or is it meant for bigger fish?


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## Nimble

I'll check my local pet stores for that, in the frozen foods section. If they have it, then I shouldn't have a problem. Either way, I'll make sure to have something for my fry to munch on at this stage of development when the time comes that I have a successful spawn. Should be... some time within the next two years. X3


----------



## hrutan

kevinap2 said:


> What about the commercially available frozen stuff? I see the San Francisco Bay brand at various pet stores all the time. Is it the same stuff or is it meant for bigger fish?


You can chop that stuff up with a cheese grater or add it into the beef heart mix, but they'll start going through a ton of it, and it will be very expensive after a while.


----------



## Nimble

What about seafood-based mixes? White-fleshed fish like Tilapia usually tend to run pretty cheap, and with the right amount of stuff mixed in should be just as nutritious as beef-heart, right?


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## hrutan

That depends on the protein content of the individual meat. Beef heart is used because the protein content is very, very high, and the fat content is very, very low, and it is cheap. You can probably use any extremely lean meat, or a seafood mix. But if you do, be sure to do some research first. Many fish are actually quite fatty, or they may contain high levels of mercury, or they may be difficult to de-bone.


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## Nimble

You got it. High-protein and low-fat? Maybe pork might work well too. Regardless, I'll do my research and figure it out. Hell, by that logic, creating an egg-white based supplement would probably be very easy. Egg-white is pure protein, and when ground up with garlic and other tasty bits like dried shrimp or krill, then gelatinized (possibly cooked like a custard) and frozen, it would probably be fine.

Sort of like an advanced egg-slurry that some people feed to newborn fry. Or a really good omelet.


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## hrutan

Sounds intriguing, but it also might not be cost-effective, lol.


----------



## MameJenny

I give my adult fish scrambled egg sometimes. The platies love it.


----------



## hrutan

It's been a long time since a photo update. Here we go!

The fry are starting to lose their racing stripes and put on more fashionable clothing. I'm seeing variation where there wasn't any before. Some of the ones that are missing vents might be growing them now that they are off worms.

Red, red red!


Where did your red go?


My, there are a lot of you...


So many...


Busy, busy babies!


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## Tress

Gosh, so many. It looked like the dark one in the first pic has vertical bars >.<

How old are they now?


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## Nimble

Red loss! Looks like Primus might have had some red-loss in his background, which, as far as I know, happens sometimes with black or melano. Some of them may darken up with time, but others still might be yellows, oranges, or who knows what else? Exciting!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

:shock:Orange *drooling


----------



## hrutan

Tress said:


> Gosh, so many. It looked like the dark one in the first pic has vertical bars >.<
> 
> How old are they now?


It does have vertical bars. A couple of them do. Vertical bars can be a dominance display. I have a male that shows them all the time, haha.

6.5 weeks, roughly. :-D


----------



## hrutan

I found a dead fry last night. The water parameters were normal. No signs of velvet or any other illness on his siblings...all I can guess is the silly numbskull was one of my intermittent SBD babies (and thus, total pigs) and finally managed to eat himself to death.

...also, fish are cannibals. In case you didn't know.


----------



## Nimble

I mean, hey. It's free food, man.

:3

That's a shame that you're still losing fry at this late stage in their development. But I suppose it happens, still. Was it one of your hopefuls?


----------



## hrutan

No way to know, there wasn't too much left of it - and this is the very first and only fry I've lost since that initial 8-10 day die-off, so I'm not too concerned unless I lose more. Tested the water and then did an extra large 40% water change on all the fry tanks last night. Everything was coming up normal, so I have no idea.


----------



## hrutan

No more mysteriously dead fry. But, I did take out 5 very tiny ones, today. It didn't make me feel very good. They were small and weak, though, and didn't seem to be thriving. By "small" I mean, 1/5th the size of their large siblings. One fought and got all furious when I pulled him out, so I stuck him back in. You get another chance, little buddy.

The rest didn't show much reaction once they were put in the cup, so it was probably a mercy. I don't have another tank to nurse them in and try to coax them to eat the food their siblings have taken so eagerly, and one of them was straight-up clamped.

On a more cheerful note, I have high hopes for these:


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## BettaBoy51

wow that little redish one looks awesome in that picture


----------



## Nimble

What is that floating plant you have at the top of their water? I keep seeing stuff like that, but I can't seem to remember what it is.


----------



## BettaBoy51

Nimble said:


> What is that floating plant you have at the top of their water? I keep seeing stuff like that, but I can't seem to remember what it is.


same here i need to get some floaters for my breeding tank


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## hrutan

I have anacharis, duckweed, and Salvia minima.

EDIT: Oh, and I think I have some guppy grass in one of them, maybe.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Dibs on this one ;-)
Seriously though they look amazing


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## hrutan

I think that's one of my ventless wonders, haha. There are like three of those with simply _amazing _finnage and no vents. Makes me want to cry.


----------



## TripleChrome

They are getting so big. Do you know how much you will sell them for and when you will be? Because I should have the money when you go to sell them.


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## hrutan

Since they are VT, I'll sell perfect ones for $5 and offer others for adoption. I'll make a Classifieds thread when they are jarred and I can track individual males. The big issue is going to be shipping; local pickup can happen in December, but I won't risk any to the postal service until after the Christmas glut cools down, probably a couple weeks into January.

Shipping is going to be the expensive part - it's winter, I am going to need to learn how to use heat packs, and I really cannot recommend anything but express overnight. Half the country is butt deep in snow, and FedEx has already left two trucks with fish in them parked outside t overnight that I know of - USPS has to use FedEx for air freight. Costs to be determined, but if you save up $30-$40 you should be safe no matter what you choose to do. Better to over save than under save! Also, I'll combine shipping whenever safe.


----------



## hrutan

Next gen will probably cost a bit more, but they should also be higher quality fish!


----------



## Nimble

I'll hold off on buying from you until the Primus/Nimbus spawn comes about. I'd rather have a Halfmoon than a Veiltail just for selfish aesthetic and potential breeding reasons, though these babies are just fantastic-looking.

Primus/Nimbus neither have a whole lot of iridescence, which means that their babies should have relatively little, which means they'll be good breeders for reds, blacks, and yellows.

Edit: Not to mention, that that spawn will be ready in the spring, which means easier shipping!


----------



## hrutan

That seems good to me. I can't tell how many are in that breeding tank; it's definitely a small spawn, but if it's too few I will put them together again. They are hiding in the duckweed and I've never seen more than 3 at a time...


----------



## bubblesaurus

Gah, look at them! Can't wait to see them all grown up, and the next gen when that comes around.


----------



## Nimble

Judging from your pictures, I'm guessing you've got mostly reds, with a few non-reds peppered through, in terms of color?

Any idea on how the tails are doing? Is it too early to tell tail-types? Although... Veiltail is a dominant gene, isn't it?


----------



## hrutan

They should be all VT with maybe a couple DeT, unless Elizabeth has mixed genes. When crossing HM to VT, it takes a couple of generations to get back to HM. Also, there are more in the new spawn tank than I thought. They're hiding in the duckweed. I have to lay down on the floor, stare up, and wait for movement. :lol:

As far as the color...I am not sure. There is definitely going to be a mix. It looks like some are actually either losing their red, or never had it. I have some fish that still look totally cellophane, some that are red-red-red-_red_, and some that are red with black borders, and some that are red with cellophane borders. They are taking their time coloring up, which only heightens the suspense. :-D


----------



## Nimble

I both hate, and love, the waiting game when it comes to watching fry color up. Let's hope for some pretty, pretty babies.

Primus was a pure Halfmoon, and so was Nimbus if I'm not mistaken, right? So you expect mostly HM and DeT from their spawn?


----------



## hrutan

Yes, that's an HM x HM spawn. I'll start up a spawn log in about a week, once I'm sure everything is going smoothly, and I can get a better idea of how many are in there.


----------



## Nimble

No rush! I'm just antsy to see the babies, and to see how things went.

Hopefully you kept lots of pictures!


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## hrutan

My camera can barely pick them up, lol.


----------



## hrutan

I cupped an especially promising looking fry yesterday - one that looked like the goober that Sayla circled. Between when I left for work this morning, and when I came home, he did this:


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

He did what? Posed? How big is he


----------



## hrutan

He turned black/red bicolor! He was red. Red, I tell you! Now...not so much.

He's roughly an inch. I'm not sure if that includes fin or not, because he's also quite wiggly.


----------



## Tress

HAHA so all the black fry are in red/cambo camo?


----------



## Crossroads

One I can't wait to see if it maybe shows in this bunch is black/red bicolor but with the black band and butterfly bands. I doubt it will but its a slim to nil possibility and if one shows I definitely call dibs (even if I had to pay extra xD) I mean just picture it. Black body, red fins near the body, then black then white? That'd be a pretty fish man. It can happen with the "Thai Flag" coloration so I'm assuming it could happen here....
Possible but not probable


----------



## hrutan

I don't _think _I'm going to get that, but anything is possible. Jarred 8 more of the largest tonight. Given that he colored up so quickly when he was jarred, it follows that the crowded conditions are stressing them out.


----------



## Crossroads

I really don't think so either but its possible so I've got my fingers crossed xD Otherwise I might go after some red loss babies...If they show up xD


----------



## Nimble

Some of Primus' iridescence is showing on some of the fry that you've jarred, it seems. I'd forgotten that he had a little bit of blue in him. It's very pretty~


----------



## Schmoo

hrutan said:


> I cupped an especially promising looking fry yesterday - one that looked like the goober that Sayla circled. Between when I left for work this morning, and when I came home, he did this:


Very pretty baby. :3


----------



## hrutan

Nimble said:


> Some of Primus' iridescence is showing on some of the fry that you've jarred, it seems. I'd forgotten that he had a little bit of blue in him. It's very pretty~


Yes, they all have a great deal of blue iridescence, actually. I was startled by how much. That fry looks black/red until you shine a light on him, then he looks blue/red. We'll see how that ends up when they mature.


----------



## Nimble

I think that if I do get one of your Primus x Nimbus spawn, I'll look for ways to reduce iridescence when breeding. I'd love to have some perfect, bright red/yellow/orange Halfmoons with absolutely no iridescence. I think that'll be my first breeding goal.


----------



## hrutan

It may be better with Primus / Nimbus. We'll find out, I suppose...it's unfortunate, although I'm not going to fret too much about the Primus / Elizabeth batch until I see what happens in F2.


----------



## Nimble

Animal husbandry is more about trial and error than anything else, Hrutan. Half the fun is seeing something you didn't expect come forth. A little iridescence is not a big deal at this early stage.

Who knows? You may wind up with something from the Primus x Nimbus spawn that makes your Black VT line more stable, or lets you achieve your goal earlier.


----------



## hrutan

What's going to be really fun are the ones that I want specifically for pets...When Phoenix goes in the tub, I'm actually going to be deliberately breeding _for _iridescence, lol. Oh, those are going to be gorgeous no matter what. Orange and purple is such a killer combo.


----------



## Nimble

So pretty! Will you be breeding him with one of the girls from this spawn? They seem to be showing much more iridescence than their mother already.


----------



## hrutan

I have a yellow VT/HMPK cross that I'll breed him with, first. 

Theoretically, that should give me yellow, orange, and red VT offspring, since the yellow girl doesn't have any colors that should interfere with orange (orange is a mutation of the red gene, not a combination of red/yellow - they are carried on completely different layers). I'm likely to get a lot of royal blue iridescence, but with luck there should be some purple, too.

At least, that's what should happen on paper.


----------



## Schmoo

Paper doesn't always carry over to scales.  

How are the jarred fry doing? Still darkening up?


----------



## hrutan

They are, but only a couple have darkened as extremely as the first. Maybe we will see more results in a couple of days.  Hopefully the rest of my heat tape will arrive soon (yargh) so I can get more jarred. I'm definitely seeing some aggression in there.


----------



## Nimble

Ooh? Another yellow fish? Tell us about her~

It's not Nimbus is it? She's a true HM, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Schmoo

hrutan said:


> They are, but only a couple have darkened as extremely as the first. Maybe we will see more results in a couple of days.  Hopefully the rest of my heat tape will arrive soon (yargh) so I can get more jarred. I'm definitely seeing some aggression in there.


Nothing worrisome, I hope? :c


----------



## hrutan

No, nothing worrisome. I'm starting to see flaring and persistent chasing, but no fights yet.

This is the result of VT x HMPK F1, Mix x HM F2. Since they were working their way back up to HM, she has uneven extra branching. But, that should clean right up when crossed back to VT. She is a funny fish in that she can go either way - crossed to Primus will give some HM, crossed to Phoenix will give VT.


----------



## Nimble

She's a pretty girl, alright. Her yellow coloration makes a good canvas for lots of different color combinations.

So, you plan on using all three of these girls as part of your black VT project? That should give you a VERY good gene pool to swim through.

Just think. In a few years, you might be one of the more well-known American breeders for high-quality VTs.

We really need more high-quality American breeders. As pretty as the Thai importers' Bettas are, I'd rather not buy from them. I have several reasons for it, unknown genetic background, the cost of trans-shipping, and not to mention lack of regard for breeding in defects like Diamond-Eye and the like.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, I think with these three girls I am set for a couple of generations. There are a lot of exciting possibilities using yellow and red. Depending on space and time issues, both males may end up getting crossed with all three. I'm unlikely to cross Phoenix's offspring with Primus's, though, and instead will try to focus on one group of orange, and one of black.


----------



## aselvarial

Orange and purple potential VT? omg that would be gorgeous!


----------



## nakito

um.. is there any alternative to beef heart? Due to my family's tradition, i am unable to buy, touch or eat beef, thus unable to prepare the beef hearts, but im planning on breeding my bettas, so im worried on starving them (i hate starving my pets DX)


----------



## Nimble

Beef heart isn't really necessary, it's just a VERY good supplement for the growing fry, and for adult Bettas as well. Lots of breeders use it because it is an excellent source of lean protein, which the fry need lots of.

I'm sure you could find something available in your local pet store in the frozen food for aquaria... you might even be able to find some frozen beef heart there.

If I may ask... why are you not permitted to handle or eat beef? Is your family vegan/vegetarian, or is it for religious purposes? I ask merely because I am curious.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Hindus don't eat or touch beef, some choose not to eat or touch meat at all. I think it's out of respect for Nandi? Plus that the cow is the milk-giver and the vehicle for many gods, so it's auspicious to Hindus (I'm assuming, if wrong I apologise) and there are plenty of alternatives. Microworms, brine shrimp, other worm cultures, vinegar eels, or how about some nice lean prepared salmon (cooked with no oil or spice)


----------



## Nimble

I didn't want to assume that they were Hindu, though that does seem the most likely reason. It's equally possible that they come from a vegan household.


----------



## nakito

oh, my family is buddhist (actually a mix of taoism and buddhism) and i cant eat or handle beef due to religious belief. I am not that particular but i live with my family, so i try my best not to handle beef so my parents won't avoid the fridge


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Thank you (and sorry)


----------



## hrutan

Lamb heart, sufficiently trimmed of fat, should do. What you want is extremely lean meat; while beef is the most efficient, if you can find it using another beast - by all means. Some people even make the mix entirely out of seafood...although that is expensive!


----------



## nakito

oh, thanks so much,hrutan


----------



## Nimble

If you use expensive seafood like salmon. Tilapia sells pretty cheaply, actually. You just gotta be careful of the bones, like any fish.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, the bones, skin, and fat must all be removed. Some are easier to de-bone than others.


----------



## Nimble

Any more lookers starting to show up in the group? How many non-reds are you seeing so far?


----------



## hrutan

I'll have a good look tonight. Most of them haven't gotten nearly as dark as that pretty boy, but a couple are getting darker. I _think_...I think _maybe_...maybe I _might _be able to take it easy, take a few photos, and relax through my water changes tonight....things are starting to calm down at home...


----------



## Nimble

Just don't overdo yourself.


----------



## hrutan

I swear my life's been crazy, but I'm starting to get the rhythm of this whole manager thing. Got my car back from the shop, getting my feet under me at work...things are looking good. My husband is probably having friends over tonight, and my roommate has class. Unless my roommate's class gets cancelled again and we end up playing board games and hitting the vodka too hard, I should be able to have some fun and take some fishy pics. lol.


----------



## Nimble

Things are going to get INSANE for me this winter. I just took up a temp job in a shipping warehouse, and am going to be working just about seven days a week until the holiday season is over.

The money will be fantastic, and I don't mind doing it for a short time, even if I'll be tired all the time. By the time the temp season is done, I should have saved up enough for a beautiful tank system, and could get to work on breeding. At which time, your Primus/Nimbus spawn should start getting big and close to the time to selling date.

WHICH MEANS MOAR BABBY FEESH!


----------



## hrutan

*An Actual On-Topic Post!*

It's water change time! Jars, jars, jars...

The most efficient way, for me, is to use a turkey baster first to remove the junk from the bottom of the jars, and then pour about 90% of the remaining water in a bucket. That lets me keep the fry in the jar, and then I just scoop water from the heated water aging tank.


----------



## hrutan

I took 3 of them into the kitchen to give myself better lighting. The dark colored fry has been dubbed #1. He is my favorite, and will probably be kept for breeding. His dark coloration so far is an outlier...most appear to be variations of red.


----------



## Nimble

#1 is a handsome little devil. It almost looks like he has a Red/Black butterfly pattern on his anal fin. Let's hope it stays that way, right?


----------



## hrutan

Yes, there are a bunch with butterfly patterns...some appear to be losing them as they grow, others aren't. We'll just have to cross our fingers.


----------



## Schmoo

#3 looks like a sweetie! <3 I'm smitten.


----------



## hrutan

Today's another photo shoot day. I'm working my way down the line and numbering jars. It looks like I can tentatively sex some of them. The girls are taking longer to color up than the boys are...Photos taken under light.

#1, Male?


#2, Male?


#3, Male?


#4, Female?


#5, Female?


#6, Female?


----------



## Schmoo

#1 oh my gosh! <3 *swoons*


----------



## hrutan

He's a photogenic little bugger, isn't he?


----------



## Nimble

Look at all of that pretty purple. It's gorgeous.


----------



## hrutan

And totally unexpected. There isn't a black one in the bunch.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I like #3 if it's a boy


----------



## LadyNightraven

I think I just fell in love with #1 and #4. This spawn is full of gorgeous babies!


----------



## Alaura123

Seriously? No black ones?
Wow, they are all beautiful either way!
I adore 1, 4 and 5!


----------



## hrutan

No black ones at all. I may start seeing black in F2. If I don't, it's back to the drawing board with a different female.


----------



## kevinap2

What's your plan to try and achieve the black? Breed siblings or back to dad (even though he's HM)?

I may be imagining things but I am seeing some butterfly patterns in there.


----------



## hrutan

Breeding siblings. It's the only way to really know what recessives the parents are carrying.


----------



## kevinap2

hrutan said:


> Breeding siblings. It's the only way to really know what recessives the parents are carrying.


Makes sense. You'd risk getting more HMs if you breed back to dad too, which isn't exactly your objective.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, breeding back to dad would make sense if I was trying to create a new color in HM. It takes (I'm told) 3 generations of back breeding to get back to HM. Which is definitely something to keep in mind if you want to work with them...you're not going to "ruin" your line by adding a VT. Some people do it to fix fin size. Since HM is often bred to HMPK to improve certain traits, a lot of them seem to be getting shorter and shorter fins...and a way to fix something like that is to breed to VT. VT, by and large, have huge fins.

But, since I'm working with a color that's not an unknown, back breeding would be counter-productive. I could, after all, have bought a superblack HM female and just made black fish if I'd wanted.

When I breed Phoenix, it's quite possible I'll back breed. Orange is a very difficult color to work with and doesn't necessarily breed true.


----------



## Nimble

If you're gonna be working with Phoenix, I can see Elizabeth, Tidbit, or your other yellow VT girl working out well with him. Orange and Yellow are inter-related traits, so if you breed him to a yellow, you should get some oranges out of it.

Use Elizabeth if you want some more reds out of him, which since you're trying to get orange, is not really desirable.


----------



## hrutan

My first planned breeding for Phoenix is with Catherine (VT x HMPK, x HMPK). She already has VT in the mix, and only a little bit of extra branching. She has a very clean color, too. I don't like the huge gap between Elizabeth's anal and caudal, something that Phoenix can also display, so I'm not going to do that pairing at all. The gap is something I want to reduce.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I wish you could breed primus to pheonix but I know better


----------



## hrutan

Haha, there's possibility for an experimental cross later down the line...


----------



## hrutan

Local Adoption thread made for some babies.

My LPS has agreed to take 20 off my hands next week. Once I confirm, I'm going to cup them and start them on pellets & flakes, with a regime of daily water changes. That should speed up growth for the ones heading for sale.

While in general I deplore the sale of baby bettas, this gives ones that otherwise would have to be culled a fighting chance.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Are you gonna give your lips the nicest biggest ones or the bottom of the barrel?


----------



## hrutan

The larger ones, I think. They will be more likely to survive...I will cup a few extra in case some particularly nice ones decide to show their fins after cupping.


----------



## Nimble

I'm really looking forward to watching your lines develop, and seeing the end result come forth. I'm learning so much about the genetics of Bettas from watching you and others on this site. It's great!

How is the Primus x Nimbus spawn coming along?


----------



## hrutan

I'm almost ready to start a spawn log for them. The babies are starting to get bold enough that I can spot them for pictures. There really aren't all that many, but the little ones are awfully cute!


----------



## hrutan

*Getting Ready for Sale*

The LPS asked for 20, so I cupped 25 in case any turned out to be spectacular or unsellable. They had their first meal of flakes. Most ate. The rest probably will when they get hungry. It's alternating flakes and crushed pellets for them, now, to ensure that they'll be able to eat when they are sold.


----------



## Nimble

Bye-bye, babies! Good luck!


----------



## Schmoo

Hopefully they all find good, loving homes. :3


----------



## hrutan

I sure hope so! And it's such a relief to be able to get them out of the tanks without having to kill any more. Even if I don't like the concept of selling babies, this seems like the best of a bad option. Hopefully I won't get any more really huge spawns like that...but if I do, and this batch sells well, at least there's an outlet.


----------



## spaceyJC

When I get to breeding bettas, I hope I won't have to sell/donate them to a pet store. But it is certainly a better option than euthanasia! I think you are doing the right thing, because now those little buggers will have a fighting chance 

I have a question for you, what sizes of jars are you using and where did you get them?


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

spaceyJC said:


> When I get to breeding bettas, I hope I won't have to sell/donate them to a pet store. But it is certainly a better option than euthanasia! I think you are doing the right thing, because now those little buggers will have a fighting chance
> 
> I have a question for you, what sizes of jars are you using and where did you get them?


She got them from the deli section of (I forget the name, similar to a SAMs club) they're deli cups and sold on amazon actually, either 16oz or 32oz or more maybe... 16oz is 1/10 of a gallon


----------



## hrutan

The little ones are 16 oz, the big ones are 32 oz. They'll get upgraded as they start to outgrow the small ones.


----------



## BettaBoy51

Where did you get heat tape and the cups that will be a lot easier for me also where did you get the shelf it will be a lot easier than useing my counter top lol:-D:lol:


----------



## Tress

If you look back a few pages ago she talked did a tutorial on the heat tape. And I think she said the shelf was from home depot? Lol I'm definitely looking into both things myself when I get to setting up for my breedings


----------



## hrutan

I found a female version of #1, and a male with black butterfly bands. Swapped them from the "sale" shelf to the "watch" shelf. Pics to come when I have some leisure.


----------



## Tress

Nice nice <3 Can't wait to see pics :3


----------



## Nimble

Butterfly banding is something you're trying to breed for, if I'm not mistaken, right? Keep an eye on him.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, there's a lot of switching around from shelf to shelf, as I go through and do water changes. It's interesting how a fish that once looked good or bad changes. This is how people end up finding simply gorgeous fish at pet stores, I suspect. Many stores don't stock mass-bred, they stock culls. Things can slip through that shouldn't have, which is lucky for the rest of us!

Funny note: All the babies are pale when I turn the lights on in the morning. It's like they're in their jammies.


----------



## BettaBoy51

i cant wait to see pictures also the deli cups where from costco right and the shelf from home depot


----------



## hrutan

Shelf was home depot. Deli cups were from Smart & Final, but I believe Costco sells them as well.


----------



## BettaBoy51

ok thanks how much do the shelf's and cups cost?


----------



## hrutan

The shelf was $100, but the price will vary depending on your area. It was more expensive when I looked online. The cups cost me about $50 for 150, including lids.


----------



## Nimble

I found some on Amazon. 32 oz Deli Cups with lids, a 500 pack for like $80.


----------



## hrutan

That's pretty sweet. Although if I needed 500, I'd be in big trouble! lol


----------



## hrutan

Why, _hello_, little fish. I'm sure you're pleased to know you're now on the "to be watched" shelf. Do please enjoy your stay.


----------



## Schmoo

Oh WOW! That's a gorgeous little fish.


----------



## Nimble

That's a REALLY interesting color scheme. A unique form of marbling, perhaps? Can't be red-loss, because s/he still has plenty of red in the fins.


----------



## hrutan

I've found three like that with the exact same marbling pattern. Pale front, colored back. It's like they got caught halfway between #1's coloring and #4's coloring. It'll probably progress - this is marble, after all - but it sure is fun to dream of half and halfs, haha.

What's odd is I'm not seeing marbling in any other pattern.


----------



## hrutan

That absurdly long dorsal apparently means this little fella is DT geno. Primus must be carrying it.


----------



## lilnaugrim

You know, I was going to ask about that with the other photo of the group you had, there was on in front that had quite the long dorsal but I knew neither parent was a DT but yeah, definitely one of them is carrying DT geno for sure ^_^ So interesting how you see it manifest in the next generations and all!

Loving the half & half children lol


----------



## hrutan

Yep. I'm planning on keeping four of this batch, and I'm going to see about maybe making sure at least two of them are DT geno so that I don't lose it. DT VT are awfully odd looking; I'm sure there's a market. lol.

A careful look at my tank, noting dorsal lengths, suggests that about 25% are DT geno. Primus is so "foofy" that it's hard to tell, but he has to be the carrier. Elizabeth doesn't have the exaggerated dorsal.


----------



## lilnaugrim

It might have skipped a generation, just because she doesn't display it physically doesn't mean she isn't carrying it still :dunno: I like DTVT if it's done right lol But yeah, you won't know unless you saw their siblings of course, my money is on Primus but it could be either or with all the random breeding we're doing lol


----------



## aselvarial

oh wow, that fish is stunning. Even if it colors up all the way from the back forward, that would still be a pretty fish!


----------



## hrutan

What environmental cause would create crooked spines, persistent SBD, and listlessness?

I'd been planning on dismantling growout tank #4 because it is hard to keep clean, since it has substrate. I thought that was the reason behind two unexplained deaths this week. Originally, I put 25 fry in there. The fry are hard to see because of bulky floating plants, so I didn't think much about them always being cradled up against the surface. This morning I decided to jar them (planning on just making the tank my next shipment out) and I found something dismaying.

2 died unexpectedly this week - I'd already pulled them out.
22 with either spinal deformities, severe SBD, or both.
1 that so far looks healthy.

The roughly 175 that were in the other tanks have had
- 2 unexplained deaths
- 1 spinal deformity (minor, will make someone a good pet)
- less than 10 SBD

Aside from poor Goliath, this is the first time that I didn't feel bad having to euthanize fish. Their spines were so twisted they had difficulty swimming...there was no chance of quality of life for these guys. Most were very listless, as well.

They had exactly the same diet, feeding schedule, and cleaning schedule as all my other fry, and as you know, they are siblings from the same spawn. So what gives?

Tank contents:
Heater
Cycled Sponge Filter
Thermometer
Rinsed play sand
Aquarium Rocks
Anubias
String to tie the Anubias to rocks
Java Fern
Duckweed
+ a floater I can't remember the name of.

EDIT: Ammonia and Nitrite came up 0. I'll run a Nitrate test tonight.


----------



## hrutan

The most likely answer seems to be severe SBD in that tank, which most likely stems from a feeding issue. They were contorting their spines in an effort to remain swimming. Poor little guys!

Well, I knew I had to cull. That makes the job easier, if sadder because it's due to screw-up rather than genetics.


----------



## Nimble

Oh well. These things happen. You learned something, at least.


----------



## hrutan

When I get home, I'll have a good look at the ones I didn't euthanize. Because the S shaped contorted bodies doesn't explain the odd way their head seems to join to their body. We'll put this as it "may or may not" be severe SBD, until I can run the pictures by the folks in the breeders groups that I frequent.


----------



## hrutan

I particularly like these two. Photos taken today.


----------



## ellekay

That bottom one! O.O So pretty!


----------



## Schmoo

That one already has QUITE the finnage going on.


----------



## hrutan

The boys are starting to bubble nest in their cups, hehe.


----------



## Nimble

Pretty fins are starting to grow. Your boys are starting to become very, very pretty... let's hope they're not as much of drama queens as the ones I work with on the weekends.


----------



## Nimble

That was a weird post I made last night. I'm sorry.


----------



## hrutan

**giggling** Was that a drunk post or just an overtired one? That's okay, it made me smile.


----------



## Nimble

hrutan said:


> **giggling** Was that a drunk post or just an overtired one? That's okay, it made me smile.


The correct answer is both. I had just gotten off my shift at the night club... and I had a couple of customers who were being very generous at buying me drinks... and I was being too gracious to decline.

Regretted it this morning, with a killer headache. But, oh well. Although now, I think I may have the stomach bug that's going around. Had to leave work halfway through my shift at the warehouse because I felt like I was going to fall over. One of my co-workers told me I looked very red in the face, as opposed to how pale I normally am, and that's how she was before she had it a week ago.

I hope I don't have to call in tomorrow.


----------



## hrutan

I hope so, too. That's rough. :|

How about a nice butterfly? Or maybe a marble? Will that cheer you up?

How about BOTH IN ONE? Because _someone's_ an overachiever. He was just "butterfly" yesterday...


----------



## Nimble

What's up with his ventrals? Is that just the camera angle, or are they stumpy?

Also, I see what you mean. Another one with that unique half-and-half coloration on the body. You may have just struck some genetic gold, dear.


----------



## hrutan

He was one of my "missing vents" kids, but they started growing late. Most of the fish that decided to grace me with some sort of ventral growth late ended up with stubby, curly vents.


----------



## hrutan

And yes, this half and half thing is very strange.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I kinda like it. Almost as if they have butterfly bodies


----------



## VivianKJean

Oh he is gorgeous! I love him <3


----------



## Nimble

Is it their base color, or is it their iridescence that changes color halfway across? Either way, you should come up with a name for that color-pattern if you get more from this.


----------



## hrutan

**pulls out the trusty LED flashlight, checks* *

I think it's the base color that's changing. You're right; I'll have to come up with something if it stays stable.


----------



## Nimble

I really think that's neat. Do the little ones show any irid over their white fronts, or is it as clean as it looks?


----------



## Nimble

I would almost say that these little guys are a variation of being Piebald, but don't look like what you'd see in most 'white-head' piebald Bettas.


----------



## hrutan

Nimble said:


> I really think that's neat. Do the little ones show any irid over their white fronts, or is it as clean as it looks?


They have irids, but the irids aren't as dark as they are over the rest of the body. They look more like lavender girl #4 (pictured earlier) rather than dark purple/red bicolor male #1.


----------



## Nimble

That makes sense. I've been doing a bit of research into colors, and it seems to be some kind of Piebald pattern in your fish, or some strange new type of Marbling. My guess is that the Cambodian genes are interacting with the Marbling genes that may be present... so it's hard to say what it is.

Any thoughts on a title? Hopefully those traits will breed true, and you'll have a proper line on your hands.


----------



## hrutan

The male butterfly one is the only one who I might be able to breed. The finnage on the female pictured is really weird and short, and the one my friend took home had a spinal deformity. So, we'll see. Maybe some more will turn up in the next couple of weeks, as the babies continue to color up.

I have no idea what I would call a Half-("donkeyed") marble, lol.


----------



## Nimble

The Male Butterfly boy is rather handsome, indeed. I definitely think he's a good choice for breeding.

Are any of his sisters looking good?


----------



## hrutan

Several of the girls look quite nice, and I think there are more "lookers" in the grow-out tanks. This appears to be a female-heavy spawn, in fact. If I could hazard a guess, I may have 2/3 female. Maybe even as much as 3/4. I'm waiting on pulling out and cupping more males until I've finished this precautionary course of antibiotics. Still not sure what went wrong in Growout #4. Some of the fry that I pulled out and didn't immediately euthanize are degrading, so I am medicating them in case it was bacterial and there was cross-contamination.

I'm trying to avoid cupping any more females, if I can manage. The most common request I am fielding is for females that haven't been separated.


----------



## Nimble

For sorority tanks, I'm guessing? Let's hope he's got a lovely sibling or half-sibling that will be a good match for him. I really hope that the Primus/Nimbus spawn shows some of the similar half-and-half coloration, and you can try and go for a true-breeding trait. Then you'll be famous in the hobby!


----------



## hrutan

Yes, I have at least three "instant sorority" requests, which should take up a good 20+ females, and one request for 2 males and 4 females.

The butterfly one's color is spreading, even over the course of the day. Looks like his fins are turning cellophane.


----------



## Nimble

Wow, that's impressive. In a couple of days, you need to do a before/after shot, just to show how he's been developing. How many more have you seen who are losing their red?


----------



## hrutan

None that are in the process. There are the ones that look cellophane, and the ones that don't.


----------



## Nimble

I wonder if the Cellophane boys and girls will stay that way, considering that neither of their parents were Cellophane... Although, if I remember, when Primus first got home, he was stressed and pale and his fins are rather translucent at the ends as well.


----------



## nakito

I have no idea that colours would be that confusing 0.0


----------



## hrutan

Colors are terribly confusing! There are multiple layers of colors, dominants, recessives, and co-dominants to keep track of, not all of which are well-understood. And then unless you're breeding your fish for at least three or four generations, you don't know everything that they are carrying. Just starting out, you can get all sorts of nutty combinations that you'd never have expected.

...but you know, watching this is so much fun. Here's my former "perfect butterfly," next day. I think I'll take a photo of him every day or two until he settles down.


----------



## hrutan

16 rays on that dorsal, btw. Double tail geno!


----------



## Nimble

Lovely! Double Veiltails would be pretty.

Let's hope he doesn't lose all of his color... but it seems like he's a red-loss fella, which I think we suspected a few of them might be, earlier on in the log. Which means that they get it from Primus, seeing as Elizabeth is, well... Red.

This means that we'll probably get a fair amount of Cellophanes and Marbles from the Prim/Nim spawn.

My guess is that his fins will start to turn darker as time goes on, if he inherited the black from his father. Maybe more of him will turn that pretty silver he has on the front part of his body and head.

The anticipation is killing me.


----------



## hrutan

Spotted another half-and-half this morning. I NEED one of those to be male, darn it! Spent a little bit of time talking to Dean Slater this morning, and he's seen the pattern before but never worked it. Which means I kind of have to.


----------



## hrutan

This pattern is making me crack up. Here's the one I found and jarred this morning.


----------



## Tress

"Hrutan's Halfies"


----------



## Nimble

Looks to me like the one 'former' Butterfly Split-Color is a boy, and that new one with the red back-half is a female... because those are some huge ovaries. So, it looks as if you have your breeding pair, or at least the first options for one.


----------



## hrutan

Mr. Former Butterfly is a very uneven halfie. We'll see if it smooths out, but he looks more like a true marble to me.

The ovaries are actually her stomach, she got pulled out after breakfast and had clearly gotten more than her fair share of food, haha. Still a girl, though.


----------



## Nimble

Adorable little glutton, isn't she?


----------



## Schmoo

Tress said:


> "Hrutan's Halfies"


I second this.


----------



## hrutan

I'll be jarring a few more tonight...there is a Golden State Bettas meeting and holiday party this Saturday. Let's cross our fingers that some of my babies get new homes!


----------



## Crossroads

oooh man I'd loooove to have one of those halfie girls, if any extras(ie unsuitable for breeding, etc) show up in the batch. So pretty <333

Ahhh this spawn is just throwing all kinds of surprises.


Doesn't help I have my mustachio'd halfie Aristodemos(even though he's an uneven halfie and more true marble)


----------



## ellekay

Sounds like the hubby will let me get a 20g during the $1 sale this month...I only have 2 bettas right now...I need at least one more if I'm going to split that 20  

I love the colors you've gotten so far. I'd possibly be interested in non-breedable ones


----------



## hrutan

Mr. Marble as of this morning. Oh, and I see another starting to marble (#5), but they don't look quite as interesting yet.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I want <3 (but I know you want)


----------



## hrutan

Here's my question: Is red loss the same as marble?

And nooooo, Sayla. You don't get _this _one. ^_-


----------



## spaceyJC

Wow! He is gorgeous!


----------



## Schmoo

Beautiful!


----------



## hrutan

To answer my own question: No. I've been informed that red loss is _not _marble.


----------



## Nimble

Regardless, he's still very pretty. Although, it seems like his Half-and-Half outfit is getting painted over by the marbling. Oh well, he's still pretty. Can you tell on his tail-type yet, or is it still too short to identify?


----------



## hrutan

I'm pretty sure he's going to be VT, like the rest. I've been told after an outcross to VT, it takes three generations, sometimes four, to get back to HM, crossing back to HM each generation.


----------



## hrutan

I like his form a great deal - I think the half-and-half was an illusion based on lighting, and was merely a spot where there's a bit less blue. But as far as body shape and finnage goes - he has a very long body, and I'm seeing a lot of short bodies in this spawn. He doesn't have a "man hump" or hunchback, and has a very nice, full dorsal, which stands up and held away from the body when he flares - something I want to breed for.

Colorwise, the red-loss is interesting. He did keep his perfect cellophane butterfly pattern, it's just harder to see due to the way the pigment is now distributed in his fins.

He's likely to be one of the two males I want to keep for breeding.


----------



## Nimble

Who do you think you'll be keeping for the dame of the next batch?


----------



## hrutan

I haven't decided yet. Due to the irregularities in this spawn, I'm likely to keep more fish than I'd originally planned. One of the half-and-halves, almost certainly - but maybe two of them, if there are two that I wouldn't be embarrassed to breed. Right now, there's only one "halfie" that I like the look of, but a second one would be preferable. That would leave me with one for front-line, and one for back-up. I'll also keep one of the better females - there's one (pictured earlier in the log) that is always tiger-striped. It might be her.

I'll keep the red-loss male, and a "normal" male with butterfly pattern. Male #1 still looks like a good candidate, but I don't like his ventrals so I am keeping my eye out for a second, better formed male.

Ideally, the ones I keep will carry DT, but since that's a secondary (very minor) goal, I'm not making it the biggest priority. More like a tiebreaker.

I find it interesting that the ones I pulled out as "looking a bit better than the rest" still _do _look better than the rest. Either cup life agrees with them, or the good ones stand out early.


----------



## Nimble

That's a bit of a shame that none of them are ideal, but I suppose that's how it is. Gotta take a few generations in order to get what you're looking for.

If I'm not mistaken, you're going for Black Veiltails with clean butterflying, correct? I can't remember.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, that is my stated goal with this. However, the results of the spawn have given me an additional need to follow that half-and-half color pattern, as well. That _deserves _exploring. Besides, what if I can create "oreo" fish? Half-and-half with _black_...

Planned pairings:

Half-and-half female to father
Half-and-half female to red loss male
Half-and-half female to standard male
Red-loss male to standard female
Re-pair original (seeking to create half-and-half male)


----------



## Nimble

Good luck with that! Maybe if you can isolate the Half-and-Half color pattern, you could work back up to HM with it, and have Half-and-Half Halfmoons! Give it 150%

I'll see myself out now.


----------



## hrutan

**laughing**

I have a divided mind about that. Fortunately, I don't have to make a split-second decision. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other, really, so maybe I can have my cake and eat it, too?


----------



## Nimble

Glad to see my sense of humor is appreciated here.

But with how long of a project you're looking at, and the fact that these fish aren't one-time-only breeders, there's nothing standing in your way from doing so.


----------



## Nimble

How are our favorite little lovelies doing today?


----------



## hrutan

Today I met with an adopter, and then went to the Golden State Bettas meeting. Six young bettas went to new homes. Yvonne Chaban, our chapter head, took two of them for breeding. She took a red loss male (male #5, if I remember correctly) and a female that is developing an interesting mottled pattern. I am very, very excited by this.

Yvonne also asked me to mange our special (non-sanctioned) Veiltail contest that will be happening during the Spring show. This is going to be fun...

The half-and-half pattern seems to be fading from all but one of my females, and the female that still has it is not one that I want to breed. I am not deeply concerned by this, since it may pop up later...or it may not. Creating beautiful black butterfly VT was my first goal, and it's still a darn good one. I'll pursue the half-and-halves if it still looks like a good lead, later.

After some inquiry with different breeders and observation of my "kids," it looks like they'll be ready for breeding _basically _as soon as I get the fish that are still in the tanks re-homed. I expect to put them together at roughly 15 weeks of age. The girls are already barring up, and the boys are beginning to nest.

I've also made my initial selections for the first F1 pair. :-D

The family's going out for dinner. I'll talk more when I get home


----------



## Nimble

Hooray! That is all good news to hear. I'd love to see the pictures of the pair that you chose, though I'm imagining Boy #1 is the father-to-be.

Speaking of good news, I've got my own 5.5 gallon tank mostly setup and on a fishless cycle right now. I'm checking the parameters daily, and waiting for that nitrite spike.


----------



## hrutan

That's more branching than I expected.


----------



## Schmoo

dat beard


----------



## hrutan

These two girls are on my "to be bred" shelf, unless someone else stands out before they are all rehomed. The short bodies are an illusion of the cups, although they could be longer. I am still watching, but these two have stood out since they were jarred at 6 weeks of age.

Yesterday I put my two males and these females on the top shelf, and carded them. When I took the cards away, the boys flared and the girls barred up and started dancing.

10 weeks old, yesterday.


----------



## hrutan

And here's a boy that's just plain pretty, missing vents or no:


----------



## Nimble

Looks like the Halfmoon/Delta genetics are little stronger than you expected, huh? I'm a little glad to still see some extra branching in his fins.

That young purple one without the ventrals is rather handsome, indeed.

Any new pictures of the young Mister Marble? Or has he not changed his coloring very much since the last?

I've just had a curious thought. What would a 4-ray Veiltail Betta look like, do you think? Is it possible?


----------



## lilnaugrim

It's actually not possible to have a 4 rayed VT, VT's MUST have only 2 rays, otherwise it's considered a DeT from 4 rays and up ^_^ But I have seen some DeT's with the VT droop and it does look rather nice


----------



## hrutan

When "mister overachiever 4-ray" flares, his tail looks quite round. He's very much a DeT...but when he is not in flare, his tail droops, which is why I didn't catch it for so long. There are a couple boys (oddly, no girls yet) with extra branching, but only a little bit here or there. This one blew me away because his branching is very uniform and complete.

Mister Marble - AKA Red Loss boy - hasn't changed since he lost his red. I've been informed that red loss and marble are not the same thing at all, and that appears to be correct based on his pattern.


----------



## Nimble

So, RLB is still as handsome as we've last seen him? That's good.

I couldn't tell if he had any extra branching or not. His tail does look kinda Delta-shaped, but that might just be an illusion from how short it is.


----------



## hrutan

After I found Mr. Delta, I went and had another good hard look at my keepers - no extra branching so far. Thank goodness - while a few deltas might be exciting news for those HM lovers looking to breed up, it's not so useful for me. Haha.


----------



## Nimble

I thought as much since you're going for veiltail, after all. At the very least, other than the missing ventrals, all your kids are looking fairly handsome, and are showing pretty decent body form so far.


----------



## hrutan

If you are following this spawn log and hope to adopt one of these fish, please reply to my classifieds thread so that I know how much interest there is.


----------



## Tress

I think I'll be waiting till your F2 spawn. Hopefully by then I'll be settled in and ready to breed. :3


----------



## ozymandius

great spawn log hrutan!
im going to follow along from here on out to see how your project unfolds.
not a fan of veil tails or even long tails in general but i love to watch people breed animals and enjoy their passions


----------



## hrutan

Tress said:


> I think I'll be waiting till your F2 spawn. Hopefully by then I'll be settled in and ready to breed. :3


Seems good. I'll be putting together my F1 pair probably in mid-January. ;-)

And thank you, Ozymandius. This log is nearly done, but I am glad that you enjoyed it. Once this is finished, I think I'll make a new thread in the Breeding section for all the DIY tutorials so that they don't get lost...


----------



## Crossroads

I think, like Tress I might wait for F2. I don't have the room I'd hoped I'd have around this time but come may-ish, I'm converting my turtles to an outdoor pond which will free up a 40 gallon tank. I want to see where the little halfies go so I'll definitely keep up with all your logs :>


----------



## DaytonBetta

Congratulations! I'm glad it's gone well for you. You have some really cool looking fish.


----------



## hrutan

I did a little bit of a photo shoot tonight.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I really like them all! 

Especially that dark blue guy... You wouldnt mind if i borrow him for the weekend XD?


----------



## hrutan

Which photo #?


----------



## BlueInkFish

Oops! I forgot to mention that! 

Pic #5


----------



## Tress

I loooove #5 (the dark blue/grey). Was that Mr. Marble?

My gosh they have gotten big  You have some lovely fish Hrutan!


----------



## BlueInkFish

Tress said:


> I loooove #5 (the dark blue/grey). Was that Mr. Marble?
> 
> My gosh they have gotten big  You have some lovely fish Hrutan!


I'm sorry Tress but #5 will be on my Christmas list... So if you can stop complementing my fish XD! Jk jk! Ain't he gorgeous?!

You did an awesome job Hrutan!


----------



## Tress

litelboyblu said:


> I'm sorry Tress but #5 will be on my Christmas list... So if you can stop complementing my fish XD! Jk jk! Ain't he gorgeous?!
> 
> You did an awesome job Hrutan!


You can relax, I'm too far away to get him before you


----------



## Nimble

I'm thinking #5 is our dear friend Mr. Marble. He'll be the daddy of the F2, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## hrutan

Yes that's Mr. Marble, AKA 'Red Loss' since he isn't _actually _a marble, hehe. He's my planned F2 daddy. But FEAR NOT: Two more boys are showing signs of red loss!! I'll be keeping a careful eye on them...


----------



## VivianKJean

Omg #5 is gorgeous <3


----------



## tiffanylucky

I love the betta in picture one and two. I wouldn't mind paying the fee, I have an empty tank I would use.


----------



## tiffanylucky

How much would it cost +shipping?


----------



## ellekay

i like #5 as well!


----------



## hrutan

He'd just be the cost of priority shipping plus a heat pack. Someone else has first dibs on them, so let me make sure of her decision first.

As a note, that boy can swim just fine, but appears to have rather mild SBD (he spends more time at the surface than he should). It won't affect his quality of life any, but if you want him, you'll want to be careful not to over feed or he could end up bobbing like a cork for a few days until he recovers.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

1,5,6 <3


----------



## Nimble

Hooray for more red-loss boys. Marble has turned out very handsome indeed, I love his dark blue coloring.


----------



## ozymandius

yeah #5 FTW! beautiful male
what kind of DIY stuff will you be posting?


----------



## hrutan

Artificial hatchery for betta eggs, brine shrimp hatchery, drip acclimation, beef heart mix ... everything that was too expensive to buy, but necessary to raise a healthy batch. The instructions are here and there in this log, but at 42 pages, it's too much to expect anyone to wade through for the information.


----------



## ozymandius

very interesting, have you had success using the artificial hatchery for bettas? ive heard people talk about them but never seen one in action.
awesome ideas bro, looking forward to reading those threads as well


----------



## hrutan

My artificial hatchery had something along the lines of a 70% hatch rate, and taught me not to mess with nature...LOL. Because this spawn had around 200 fry live to jarring age, and if I'd let things take their course, maybe I wouldn't have had quite so many. But, I saw a bunch of eggs on the floor that the dad was trying so hard to tend and couldn't, and I panicked thinking I wouldn't have anything left of the spawn. So, I artificially hatched half of them.

It's REALLY useful information if you have a neglectful daddy or an egg eater, though.


----------



## aselvarial

I agree with everyone else #5 is GORGEOUS! # 6 and #9 are also very beautiful fish.


----------



## JessikaSky

Me personally, I love #6 such pretty markings/colours! ♥.♥!


----------



## aurielssong

definitley following this, my plan is to breed the male in my avatar, he is a HM or delta male. he has the most beautiful coloring. and i want to breed him with my crown tail female who is an iridescent royal blue and green color. hoping to get some Half sun crosses.


----------



## aselvarial

is 7 a boy? if it is, he looks TINY!


----------



## hrutan

No, 7 is a girl.


----------



## Schmoo

#5 and #6...mein Gott. <3 Stunning. All of the pics you've shown us are gorgeous, Hrutan. I'd say it was a very successful spawn.


----------



## hrutan

We just found this girl in the spawn tank. My roommate has asked rather wistfully if we can keep her as a pet. She has a tiny kink in her tail, or I'd be tempted to breed her. Anyway, I am a helpless slave to my roommate, so yeah. On the keep shelf.

**NOT FOR SALE**

(Also, guys? I want to sell to you, I really do, but I can't do a special photo shoot so that you can pick fish out yet...lemme please get myself sorted out first and get the last lot to the pet store. Like I said I had to...)


----------



## hrutan

Packing up.


----------



## hrutan

One tank empty. I had to euthanize several that I hadn't spotted because they were using the floating plants to hold their bodies up. Poor little things had severe scoliosis and could not swim. I will be dosing with Vitamin C aquarium suppliment as soon as I get it...too late for the growth of this batch, perhaps, but the babies will benefit and it wil be good for these guys' health.


----------



## Tress

Bye bye little guys! Be sure to puppy-dog-eye those potential owners!

Any idea how many you have left?


----------



## FrozenSummerSky

Esk, after reading 42/43 pages of the spawn and nothing to read anymore, gotta say that im kinda sad to not read page after page xD hope the little ones go to great homes :3 (Is there no cat face/ puppy face smilie?)


----------



## hrutan

FrozenSummerSky said:


> Esk, after reading 42/43 pages of the spawn and nothing to read anymore, gotta say that im kinda sad to not read page after page xD hope the little ones go to great homes :3 (Is there no cat face/ puppy face smilie?)


It's hard when things come to an end...but the classifieds will be up soon (hopefully by the end of the week) and the babies really are lovely. There will be more spawn logs. Can't wait for F2...I'm getting bitty little bubble nests out of the boys already. :-D


----------



## hrutan

As far as how many I have left, now...50ish? The classifieds thread will be a long one, which is why it's taking me so long to put it together.


----------



## FrozenSummerSky

someone *cough* me *cough* will be refreshing a lot to find the next thread to stalk xD can't wait for F2!


----------



## cindygao0217

What are the classified thread going to be up do you think


----------



## hrutan

I sincerely hope by the end of the week.


----------



## hrutan

I just pulled out this little lady and bumped every other female down on the list as spawning candidates for F2. Holy snickerdoodle, Batman!

NOT FOR SALE.


----------



## hrutan

Speaking of red loss... Mister Red Loss has rather sneakily transformed on me. I can't wait to get a good picture of him tomorrow. Most of the missing color has filled in with blue and black.


----------



## Nimble

That's good to know! I look forward to seeing this handsome devil in his new outfit when you get the chance.

By the way, Merry Fishmas! Now I'm gonna try to forget how lame that pun was. Goodnight!


----------



## BettaLover1313

So glad to read through this as I try to catch up and see that your fry have grown up to be gorgeous fish. I hope you're successful with your next spawn


----------



## BettaBoy51

what was your feeding schedule for the fry? i want to try a new feeding schedule for my next spawn i kept mine on MW for to long


----------



## hrutan

MW or vinegar eels for the first two weeks ONLY and you shouldn't lose ventrals unless there's a genetic problem, that's what happened to these guys. Kept them on MW too long.

First two weeks, MW or VE. Then baby brine shrimp alternated with something else. Grindal worms if you can get them can be very good, if you can't and need to use dry foods, try golden pearls, decapsulated brine shrimp eggs, finely powdered flake food, ect. Get a little variety in their diet ASAP. There's no knowing what their future owners will feed them, after all.

Don't use pellets until they are cupped and you can control how much they eat. Flakes are safer. If they overeat pellets it can kill them because of how they swell in the stomach.


----------



## trih

Amazing read! I just read all 45 pages and glad to see such a detailed spawn log. Thank you!


----------



## hrutan

You're welcome. Ooo, you're in OC. Want a baby?


----------



## hrutan

Girls...what happened...you were so beautiful...:shock:


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Red loss?


----------



## Nimble

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Red loss?


Red loss.


----------



## hrutan

They look so awful and blotchy before the new color fills in. And girl #2 doesn't seem to be filling in on her face. One eye has a black rim, the other eye is naked. Looks like she was on the losing end of a bar fight


----------



## Nimble

A bar fight? Well, I haven't seen any strange, blotchy female Bettas around my place lately, but I'll keep my eye out for them. :3


----------



## hrutan

If you do, watch out. They can be feisty!


----------



## VivianKJean

Is it weird that I like how they look?


----------



## hrutan

No, haha. I sort of do, too. But it's kind of like that ugly dog syndrome...there's a dial that spins that goes from cute to ugly and back to cute...


----------



## VivianKJean

I love ugly dogs. I think they are adorable.


----------



## Crossroads

I think I like them as is...but I have a strange fondness for blotchy bettas...

//eyes Orion, Aristodemos, Candy Cain and Sherbet


----------



## myexplodingcat

Aahhh! I ran out of betta spawn log to read D: Looks like I came in on the tail end of the excitement! This looks like it was a really interesting project, hrutan. I'm glad you documented it.


----------



## hrutan

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it! I have two more spawns going, but nothing's quite the same as the first one, is it?


----------



## hrutan

Where did _you _come from?

NOT FOR SALE. Keeping this one for breeding.


----------



## kjg1029

shes sooo pretty!<3

quick question, would a female betta do okay in a tank with a stonger filter? ive only owned heavily finned males, and have a tank that no bettas can live in ATM because the flow is stong ( I might be able to baffle it some, but not enough for a long finned fish) and pushes my males around! If not then ill just pick a different try a different type of fish.


----------



## aselvarial

Is she a red loss who had no blue? Because how could you miss that beauty?


----------



## Greenapp1es

kjg1029 said:


> shes sooo pretty!<3
> 
> quick question, would a female betta do okay in a tank with a stonger filter? ive only owned heavily finned males, and have a tank that no bettas can live in ATM because the flow is stong ( I might be able to baffle it some, but not enough for a long finned fish) and pushes my males around! If not then ill just pick a different try a different type of fish.


Have you tried baffling the filter? Depending on the type of filter you have there are different things you can try - from rubber-banding aquarium foam to lessen the flow, to hooking a cut water bottle around the filter to distribute the flow differently, to creating a spray bar to distribute the flow differently.

Not sure if females are quite as sensitive or not, but I'm sure they would still prefer a slower flow if you could manage it.

Edit: For the filter that came with my tank, it initially practically threw my guy around. After baffling there are a couple spots with a stronger current than I'd like...but it's definately manageable for my guy and he's DEFINITELY got a lot of finnage (super delta tail, double tail carrier so his dorsal fin width matches his anal. Both dorsal and anal are as long as his tail is).


----------



## kjg1029

well its not planted yet or anything so that might help, and its a type that pulls the water up in a tray then drips down kinda like rain, so like i said, i may be able to baffle it some...but not a whole lot since i cant just tie something on it.....its difficult to explain...lol!


----------



## hrutan

Sponge filters are fine for all bettas. I use them over anything else. They provide a better surface area for beneficial bacteria than most HOB filters, and the current created is gentle enough even for newborn fry.

Remember, bettas are air-breathers. While a filter is beneficial, they don't require one at all as long as the water is kept clean.


----------



## hrutan

aselvarial said:


> Is she a red loss who had no blue? Because how could you miss that beauty?


I...think so. I think she was just very red before she lost it. Those dark scales could turn into black or blue/black, later, but unlike the other "cello" looking girls, this one did not color up overnight. She's been cupped for two days and still looks like this.

She might, however, be a marble. Primus is carrying marble - all Superblacks do - and I've been informed that red loss is recessive, which means both parents must carry it. Who knows what else lurks in Elizabeth's genetics?


----------



## Nimble

Greenapp1es said:


> Have you tried baffling the filter?


I certainly did with mine, and it works wonderfully. Angostura is actually able to swim underneath the filter without being flung down to the bottom of the tank. I'll need to work on a baffle for Smirnoff's tank as well, but she's got a Tetra Whisper 10i, which doesn't have as strong of an outflow as Smirnoff's Tetra Whisper PF10.


----------



## Nimble

hrutan said:


> Who knows what else lurks in Elizabeth's genetics?


Who do you plan on breeding Elizabeth to next, by the way? The best way to figure out what she has is to continue to breed her, after all.


----------



## Greenapp1es

Haha, is Elizabeth the one that produced the ridiculously crazy amount of eggs? Is that likely to repeat in another spawn?


----------



## kjg1029

thanks for the answer! I think I might try baffling it one more time, if not then ill just put a few more coreys in it lol!


----------



## hrutan

Elizabeth is always heavy with eggs. However, I don't have another pairing in mind for her right now. While the pairing was interesting, there was one thing that I got out of it that I absolutely did not want and pray I can breed out: Round tails. A veil should have a tail that falls in a gentle arc.

...when I look at her photo (my avatar pic) I realize I should have thought of that. Most veils don't have tails that look vaguely like a lollipop.


----------



## aselvarial

Are you planning to breed any of the girls here with a veil male? To try and get more drape?


----------



## hrutan

I need to do at least one sibling pairing before I outcross. With luck, it'll fix on its own in the next generation, but if it doesn't, I'll have to get black in these before I cross out to another veil to fix their tails.

Believe it or not, fixing color before form is a very, very good way to go. When you're working with recessives, you really need to work in that direction. Once you have an individual of the correct color, then you can outcross for form and have the color back in two generations.


----------



## aselvarial

Cool. I'm learning so much about betta breeding! Not that I ever intend to breed, but it's fun information to have! I just love watching the baby fish grow! Better than a soap opera for me!


----------



## hrutan

Well, at the last Golden State Bettas meeting, I gave away several fish, including one male that was showing hints he would go through red loss.

...we've now set up an agreement to trade back and forth so that we can each get a spawn with him and Ghost Girl (the Christmas jumper). Ghost girl has the same color pattern, you see. But BOY does it look impressive on a male!

He turned into this:


----------



## aselvarial

Oh my! That IS a change!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Holy... <3


----------



## kevinap2

WOW. Now I'm kind of glad I'm getting a couple of the nicer quality females from you too!


----------



## Nimble

Oh my goodness, that IS pretty. <3

Midnight seems to be a fitting name, in my opinion.


----------



## hrutan

In my own private mind, anyway. It's not my fish anymore, so I could hardly name him. Haha.


----------



## Nimble

Oh? So you sold him, then? But you've got that exchange program going on for breeding purposes then...

Hm~ That's a nifty idea. Might have to try it with some of the folks on this site, perhaps.


----------



## hrutan

Well, we meet once every other month for the bettas meeting, so he won't have to go through shipping or anything. I'll get him back for breeding February 1st. So I think I'll do Red Loss boy with Random Cello girl (what names, huh?) and be feeding up Ghost Girl for Midnight in two weeks.


----------



## aurielssong

If he has any babies that look like him I need one..not just want lo. i need that color pattern in one of my lines!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I'll admit I'd rather have halfmoon over a VT of the same colors, but I'd rather have THAT vt over the halfmoon I was considering buying off of aquabid


----------



## aurielssong

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> I'll admit I'd rather have halfmoon over a VT of the same colors, but I'd rather have THAT vt over the halfmoon I was considering buying off of aquabid


He IS beautiful!!


----------



## Greenapp1es

Wow....that's gorgeous.

.....Is it sad that I'm kinda hoping that one of the guys I'm getting ends up showing red-loss now? I think I heard somewhere that it can take a while to show up in some cases...

Haha, all the fish are lovely either way. But...seriously. :shock:


----------



## Tress

SO MUCH WANT. Oh gosh <3 He is so lovely, I hope some of the ones you kept turn like that <3


----------



## Schmoo

WOW! That is just....WOW!


----------



## BettaLover1313

Beautiful!!!


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## hrutan

Soooo....remember Ghost Girl? Pretty little thing. Blue body, white fins with a black butterfly band? Good at jumping? Had a Christmas Eve adventure?

Yeah, it's a boy.

A random...short fin...boy...


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## aselvarial

He is gorgeous! Going to be added to the breeding selection?


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## Greenapp1es

Gorgeous fish there. Just...wow.


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## hrutan

He was GOING to be, when he was a SHE. But now he's an awkward roundtail plakat with a bad anal. I don't breed short fins, lol. My roommate wants to keep him, however. Maybe he's just being slow getting his fins and will turn into a nice delta or veil later, but for now...sorry, no girlfriends for _you_, buddy.


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## hrutan

He was going to get paired with this handsome fellow. Until he turned out to be a boy, that is.


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## aselvarial

Is that cup #2 from the free bettas? The one that was too pretty to let go?


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## Tress

Oh he is lovely <3 Not as lovely as the one you gave away IMO but still very lovely! Haha I don't feel so bad about my female turning out to be a male now xD So sneaky! Mine has next to no beard.


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## hrutan

No, this is the same fish as this one: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=467849&page=37 and was never going to be sold. He's been my pick for the father of F2 ever since he turned up.


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## aselvarial

That's the same fish???? Wow he turned out beautiful! No wonder you wanted him for daddy!


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## Greenapp1es

Haha - do you have another female in mind? Hopefully you haven't let all the other breeding females go.


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## Nimble

Poor Marble's never going to get a girlfriend at this rate.


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## hrutan

I have a lovely female that's almost completely cellophane and has an extra long dorsal, and a couple other girls to sort through, once I've taken several fish to the pet shop and to a couple of other adopters today. So no, I haven't sold all of the best girls.


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## Nimble

That's good! But it's disappointing that that pretty fish tricked you into thinking he was a girl.


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## hrutan

I am also going to re breed this pair.


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## Nimble

Oh? Nifty! Gonna try again for more like those that you missed, or perhaps for a female like Marble up there?

You produced some very pretty blues and blacks, Hrutan. You should be very proud of yourself.


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## hrutan

Yeah, I am going to try for some more exceptional and interesting fish. Cleaning out the spawn tank, and I'm going to go buy some Spring water for them to breed in rather than leaving them in tap...see if that mitigates the early death rates.

Just packed up another 27 fish for the pet store. The tanks are almost empty. Then to find a place that sells heat packs, pack up a sample box, and find out how much to charge people for shipping.


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## Fenghuang

This spawn turned out so well. Great job, Hrutan. I can't wait to see what your next spawn looks like.


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## Abhinand

Wow i would love to buy a butterfly...


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## hrutan

I decided to wait on F2 for a while and let them mature a couple more weeks. In the interim, look! Little tiny brothers and sisters! Can you see them? :-D


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## hrutan

2nd spawn from this pair hatched: Roughly 1/12/15. Currently free-swimming. Daddy is out. 10 gallon spawn tank, sponge filter has been running the whole time.

Note: Newly free-swimming fry CAN eat BBS. I tried. Feeding them a mix of BBS, MW, and VE. Adding a vitamin C supplement (Kent's Marine C) to the tank in a very small dose as I drip new water in.


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## aselvarial

Aww tiny fry again! Are you starting a new spawn log for these guys Or just continuing this one?


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## hrutan

I think I'll just continue this one. That way I don't have to redo my signature haha.


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## Nimble

It makes sense to continue this one, since they're a second spawn from the same parents.


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## BlueInkFish

Awesome to see pics! More please Mrs. Hrutan XD


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## hrutan

I haven't seen any sign (so far - let us hope I have not spoken too soon) of the 8-10 day mass die-off that happened in the first spawn. This is another big batch of babies - Elizabeth seems to be quite the egg-producer!

What did I do different?
1) Drip acclimated the parents to Spring water, and filled the tank with Spring water instead of aged tap water.
2) Started the fry on BBS just after free-swimming. BBS is supplemented by vinegar eels or walter worms between hatchings
3) Kept the sponge filters running through the spawn and hatch process, instead of leaving them out and adding them later.

The individual fry this time look a bit larger than the last set, although I'm going to need to find the photos and carefully compare them to be sure.


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## Nimble

It's difficult to say WHICH of those three did the job, but might as well continue to do all three for future spawnings.

Good luck with this batch, Hrutan! Hopefully it's not so enormous this time around.


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## JHatchett

I like Xena so much I may need to snag a brother from this spawn when the time comes.. :B


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## hrutan

I may, out of curiosity, be forced to count them when I finally have the girls free of the last grow-out tank. This batch will probably have to be split in half in a week or two; I don't THINK there's 200, this time...lol. Happily, there's a spare 20 gallon and heater waiting in the garage.


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## hrutan

Oh, due to the spinal and growth issues noted in the last spawn, I have started dosing daily with Kent's Marine-C in order to examine the results. Right now I am just putting a drop (a little bit goes a long way) in the drip tub before starting the day's half-gallon addition of water.

Note: Kent's Marine-C might be marketed for saltwater aquariums, but the stuff's identical to any freshwater equivalent.


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## Nimble

Huh, that looks interesting... perhaps I should grab some before I get a spawn going?


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## hrutan

I think supplements are a good idea, but beware - it's asorbic acid, and can make your PH plummet if you're not careful.


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## hrutan

*We are Legion.*

Here we go again.


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## Tress

oh god. Elizabeth.. _you make so many babies..._


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## Greenapp1es

Tress said:


> oh god. Elizabeth.. _you make so many babies..._


Haha - no doubt. Is this spawn as big as the first?


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## hrutan

No. However, the first spawn had a high fatality rate and this one has not lost any as far as I can tell. The end result may be the same.


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## Nimble

Heh. I find it funny when people complain about something good happening. Like in this case, none of the babies have died, so you have too many babies to take care of.


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## hrutan

I wasn't complaining, I was exclaiming! lol


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## Greenapp1es

Haha, I wonder if these guys will have grown up by the time the weather warms up enough for you to ship me my two boys from your first spawn.

Though I suppose if not, I might just have to find more tank space and let you fill in the box a little bit more if you end up having more little guys for sale. ;-)


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## hrutan

I am hoping that these will in general be of better quality due to more experience on my part. Supplements, different water, better food...we'll see.


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## Crossroads

Maybe some more of those red loss cuties will come out of this spawn and my empty 10 gallon will be set up. I think though, if winter claims any more fish, I'm going to keep the empty tanks for breeding.
//Grumbles about heaters and stupid weather 
_Stupid fluctuating Texas weather, please decide if you're going to be hot or cold so I can set my heaters properly!_

However, I'm thinking my new breeding candidate will be Cain. He's maintained a bubble nest for the last month, defends it without fail and builds on it daily.
Either him or Abbadon. Since Abbadon has some nice blue/yellow bicolor coloration. Only problem is his topline and that he's a DTPK.
I'm a little curious what would come out of one of your red loss butterfly and an 8-ray red dragonscale butterfly marble SD. He has white scales and red fins with butterfly pattern. However it looks like he's getting copper-based black taking over his white scales.

OH! Whatever happened to your Halfies btw? Did they color out or stay?


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## hrutan

All but one colored out, and the one that kept the pattern was also deformed. Figures, right?


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## Crossroads

Figures. Maybe you'll get some more that stay in this batch ? Since it has a possibility to stay that is.


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## hrutan

That is one of my hopes.


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## Crossroads

If you can get some to work on that Halfie line, I'd definitely like one of them later on xD the boy in my avatar has the halfie coloration and minus some darkening and lightening, its pretty much stayed. DTVT halfies 8D


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## beta dude

Hey I have been reading this and just wanted to say that I love your blog and your betas too specially Mr. marble :-D


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## hrutan

Thank you, Beta Dude.


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## beta dude

I want I know what happen to the first ones


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## BettaBoy51

beta dude said:


> Hey I have been reading this and just wanted to say that I love your blog and your Beta too specially Mr. marble :-D





Betta. sorry for some reason that always bugs me when people say beta cause its betta


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## HapaMama

I'm brand new to the community, and I have to say, I stayed up until 12:30 last night reading this thread! Super fascinating to read about your breeding journey, hrutan!


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## hrutan

Thank you.


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## Nimble

How is the new batch of babies doing, Hrutan? Any developments, or just at that stage where they just... are there?


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## hrutan

They aren't doing much but babying around at the moment. The spawn is growing slower than the other one that I have going, but they'll probably catch up when I split the group into batches. Hoping to do that tomorrow, since I've finally adopted out or cupped the last of their older sisters and freed up a 10 gallon tank.


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## Nimble

Lovely! So glad to hear it!
I'm looking forward to seeing the results of all of your spawns.


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## beta dude

Hi again, i have a question. I'm testing to breed two of my ct`s . And they are embracing but my female is plumb up with eggs but have been for more than 1 hour and I see no eggs and I'm getting worry is that ok or should I interfere. Thank you for your time.


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## BettaBoy51

beta dude said:


> Hi again, i have a question. I'm testing to breed two of my ct`s . And they are embracing but my female is plumb up with eggs but have been for more than 1 hour and I see no eggs and I'm getting worry is that ok or should I interfere. Thank you for your time.


ummm spawns take 2-4 days not an hour leave them alone and dont keep checking on them also are you prepared for 200-300 fry? heated jars forever homes growout tanks live cultures?dont spawn if your not prepared and make sure you have time to change all the heated jars every day for 200-300 fish? just make sure you are before you spawn


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## hrutan

beta dude said:


> Hi again, i have a question. I'm testing to breed two of my ct`s . And they are embracing but my female is plumb up with eggs but have been for more than 1 hour and I see no eggs and I'm getting worry is that ok or should I interfere. Thank you for your time.


It takes a while for them to get the embrace right. Let nature take its course.


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## beta dude

Ok thanks for the answers. They are done breeding but I think there is no or only a few of fertile eggs in there, and I know about the space and water changes it can be really difficult.thank you for everything


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

beta dude said:


> Ok thanks for the answers. They are done breeding but I think there is no or only a few of fertile eggs in there, and I know about the space and water changes it can be really difficult.thank you for everything


Do you know how to start your own thread? If you make one with pics send me a pm and I'll sub!


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## beta dude

No not realy


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## beta dude

But she is not so big right now because I took her out and she is not full


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## Tress

Beta dude, go start your own thread. Pick the appropriate subforum (ie, Breeding) and at the top of the list of threads you'll see a button that says "New Thread". Use that instead of posting your problems and questions on someone else's thread. If you want to talk to someone directly, send them a Private message.


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## hrutan

Yes, please  Otherwise it gets mighty confusing over here.


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## Fenghuang

Any updates on the keepers from the first spawn?


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## hrutan

Not at the moment. I seem to have ... misplaced? Accidentally sold? Been mistaken? About having a female that carried DT...although I have to look through my stock again. Very much hoping that the current batch will produce what I need, and in better quality, since they are getting better nutrition and supplements in the water.

There's no hurry. I have a bunch on my plate.

The spawn is doing well. They look like little fish now, and the larger ones are giving me hints of ventrals. It's interesting to see how dark their little bodies are compared to the orange x yellow spawns that I also have going.


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## Sadist

I can't wait to see them, Hrutan!


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## hrutan

Update: The fry are growing well, but I did not manage to take pictures last night. Someday, a day off really WILL be a day off...

They are at the point where they finally look like little fishies. There aren't as many as I thought there was, which is fine. I may have had a die off and the snails took care of them before I found out, or the initial pictures could have been confused by the sheer amount of snails that were the same size as the fry at the time. No way of knowing, really.

In other news, I set up an F1 pair in a spawn tank last night, and will be releasing them some time this weekend. Red Loss Boy meets Red Loss Girl. They are flirting, and the female has plenty of eggs. My only worry is...she's a bit bigger than he is! Hopefully they'll be able to wrap.

Wish the happy couple luck!!


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## Nimble

Will you be starting a separate spawn log for the Red Loss Siblings F1 x F1 spawn? Or will you be doing it in this thread as well?


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## hrutan

Separate log. The other little ones are staying here because it's the same parents, but I'd like to keep separate pairings apart to help me with record keeping, later. It's getting kind of hard to find things on this thread, heh.


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## Sadist

Good luck!


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## hrutan

Thanks! There's eggs as of this morning, but I will not start a log until the fry are confirmed free-swimming and uneaten.

Fry from the re-breeding of Mom and Dad are doing well. They are starting to show color, and it looks like everyone has ventrals this time. I see a lot of SBD due to overfeeding of BBS (overfeeding is a constant battle for me. I KNOW they don't need as much as I give them, but I get scared I will starve them) but a couple of weeks on powder only food has them showing improvement.

Also, this morning I started them on a seafood mix! I couldn't get ahold of any beef heart, so it was time to improvise. Instead of beef heart, I used Cod filets.

This recipe:
1 lb cod, deboned, skinned. Remember to check for pin bones!
1 lb peeled, deveined shrimp. Note: Vein had to be removed from both top AND bottom of the shrimp.
1 can flake fish food
3 drops Marine-C supplement
1 clove diced garlic
unflavored gelatin

The cod has a much higher protein content over beef heart, but lacks the high vitamin content. We'll see how it goes - the fry are eating it, at least.


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## hrutan

I just kind of had to post this... NO SPAWN LOG until I have free swimming fry... but yeah. That shadow on the right hand side? That looks like an uneven extension of the IAL in the middle? THERE IS NO IAL THERE. Hmm. What could that be?!


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## Nimble

I dunno, what is it? Oak leaves?


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## hrutan

That, my friend, is eggs.


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## Nimble

As I told you, like mother, like daughter.


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## hrutan

They are so dark...


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## Tress

D'AWW <3 They are so cute ;3;


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## Nimble

So far so good, let's hope my own spawn works out as well as yours have.


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## hrutan

Well, for respawn of the parents, it looks like I didn't do that good of a job separating the baby brine shrimp from the unhatched eggs - there's a lot of SBD issues. I don't think this spawn will end up being very large. A shame, really. But, they are growing and the colors are coming in, which is exciting. Of course, they look JUST LIKE their older brothers and sisters, lol.

Sorry to bring that bad news. It's a thing, right? Every spawn is a learning experience.


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## Nimble

Have you had to cull any of the worst cases yet?


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## hrutan

I have culled a few of the worst, but I'm giving as many of them a chance to grow out of it as possible. Growing out all 200 fry from the last spawn was a bit of a nightmare and I have 2 other spawns going right now, so unfortunately the worst off will not be offered for adoption this time around. When the sick are allowed to grow, the healthy suffer for it.


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## Nimble

Harsh methodology, but necessary.


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## Sadist

It's how nature works. I'm sad so many of them have problems, but that's why fish lay hundreds of eggs. In the wild, daddy and predators would take care of the deformed and sick ones!


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## hrutan

I really should make a new spawn log. Look what I found in F2...


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## JHatchett

Look at those little tails!


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## Fenghuang

hrutan said:


> I really should make a new spawn log. Look what I found in F2...


Is that...a doubletail baby?


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## BettaBoy51

looks like one to me..........


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## Poro

wow I always thought from rumor that melanos were infertile O_O btw beautiful babies


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## Fenghuang

Poro said:


> wow I always thought from rumor that melanos were infertile O_O btw beautiful babies


Melano females are infertile. Males are fertile.


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## hrutan

Yep, double tail. I tried to pick two fish for F2 that are carriers, but I wasn't so sure that I'd saved the right female. Looks like I did!

This is a tiny, tiny spawn. That baby double tail already looks unbalanced (uneven lobes) so he will be someone's pet. I will quite likely have to respawn the parents to get some double tails of breeding quality to work on F3. We'll see, though. There might be another in there that I can't see yet.


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## Fenghuang

If you find any other pet quality DT baby and decide to rehome, can I reserve one?


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## hrutan

Let's wait until they are of age before we worry about it. I am not good with lists, and who knows what our situation will be like 3 months from now?


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## Fenghuang

Completely understandable. I'll just keep anxiously stalking to see how the spawn grows.


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## JHatchett

Now I'm definitely going to try breeding Xena to a DT boy. :B


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## hrutan

I am sorry to report that I lost ALL of the F1 re-pair, along with another spawn, to velvet + something bacterial that attacked them while they were sick with the velvet. I had to euthanize something like 150 babies when it became clear that they weren't going to recover (antibiotics must have come too late) and were suffering...it was a bad weekend.

F2 are still happy and healthy. I have spotted two double tails in there, and will try to get an updated picture today.

Edit: All my bettas are now being kept with salt, about 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. I recommend other breeders do the same - and pet keepers, too. It acts as a de-stressor and a preventative for diseases such as velvet, and gives the fish a buffer against bad water conditions as well.


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## Greenapp1es

Oh no..... :-(

I'm so sorry to hear about all the little guys.


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## hrutan

Yeah ... it sucked =/ Oh, Greenapp1es, check your email.


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## JHatchett

Sad day. At least F2 is okay.


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## hrutan

F2 is okay, and all the adults are healthy and happy as well. It was terribly disappointing, but .. that is one of the things that you have to be prepared for. The only thing to do is pick yourself up, and keep going.


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## Sadist

I was told that salt and plants don't mix. Is that amount okay for planted tanks? I used to keep a low dose salt before I added plants. It's supposedly also good for gill function, but I never did real research on that.


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## lilnaugrim

Most plants are very tolerant of salt, specifically plants like Java Fern and Anubias are found in brackish areas. But most plants will be just fine in preventative dosages of 1 tbs per 5 gallons. Some plants will melt/die off but it's usually the higher light plants and more delicate ones (dwarf baby tears, I believe Riccia doesn't like it too).

For higher salt dosages for medicinal uses, I wouldn't use long term in a planted tank (though, that should be in a hospital tank anyway), same as you wouldn't leave a fish in 1 tsp per gallon long term either.


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## autojoy

Sorry for the loss!


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## hrutan

*A tiny update of a tiny fish...*

They are growing awfully slow. But, I did finally get these guys to accept beef heart, so things hopefully will speed up. ;-)


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## Fenghuang

Ohhhh! I see the little double tails! DTs are my favourite. :-D


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## BlueInkFish

Cute!


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## Sadist

I'm glad they're taking to their beef heart.


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## Nimble

Is that the F2? Finally, pictures. Not as dark as I expected, though.


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## hrutan

No, I think ... a lot of the REALLY dark bodies didn't make it. I may have to re-match the parents. We'll see what comes of this, though.


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## Nimble

Curious. Regardless, let's see what we get!


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## platylover13

This is an awesome thread! Subbing!


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## hrutan

Well, it's their 2 month "birthday," or real close to it. They are about 8.5 weeks old.

The largest is about the length of my thumbnail, and they are just showing hints of color at the base of the caudal. I can confirm 3 double tails. A fourth had to be put down for spinal deformity combined with severe SBD.

Sadly, this spawn doesn't seem to be thriving, although I am doing my best for them. They are growing very, very slow, and seem to suffer from SBD issues off and on. I wonder if that's issues with the double tail, perhaps?

Well, I'll keep at it. I've heard that slow growing fish tend to live longer, so maybe this isn't a bad thing, as frustrating as it is for me.


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## nakito

hrutan said:


> Well, it's their 2 month "birthday," or real close to it. They are about 8.5 weeks old.
> 
> The largest is about the length of my thumbnail


So small? I'm still kinda new to breeding but is it normal for it to be that small? I've bought 2 months junior and they are around the size of half my thumb. not sure though :-D


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## hrutan

No, they are abnormally small.

I've started dumping cups of live daphnia in their tank, and the new diet seems to be agreeing with them. Not so sure about the growth, but their activity level is up and I am seeing hints of color.


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## nakito

hrutan said:


> I've started dumping cups of live daphnia in their tank, and the new diet seems to be agreeing with them. Not so sure about the growth, but their activity level is up and I am seeing hints of color.


Is it do-able to just feed daphnia just when they are born? To prevent Swim bladder and issues surrounding bbs?
then maybe there wouldn't be mass death without the spring water? 
or is it the water condition causing the death and not the food?


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## hrutan

It's my water that's causing the issues, not the food.

Depending on the daphnia (they come in different sizes), some can be fed around the same time that BBS would be introduced. I recommend using microworms for the first two weeks to give the smaller fry a chance to grow and survive.

Daphnia give birth constantly, and newborn daphnia are small enough to be caught and eaten by very young fry.


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## hrutan

I know it has been a while. I have sworn not to continue this project...none of the little double tails escaped spinal deformity and I decided I would go for something with a smaller cull rate. But, I thought I would share this little bit of hilarity....

Remember Red Loss Boy?

He lost all his red, turned from purple to blue? Double tail carrier? Father of the spawn that proved DT?

My niece was feeding the fish, and she said, "Who's this guy?"

At first I brushed off the question, thinking my roommate had brought home another one. Then I realized...nope. RLB pulled a fast marble on me. Between one water change and the next.

Don't worry about the fin damage. His caudal is excessively heavy, and he bites when it gets too big.


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## BlueInkFish

Haha, that's pretty neat!


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## lilnaugrim

Wow! He's absolutely beautiful!!


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## Tealight03

He is beautiful! A marble is on my wish list.


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