# What would the offspring look like?



## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi, i was just thinking of breeding a copper plakat male with my blue crowntail female but what would the offspring look like? I was also wondering what would be the results of cross breeding other tail types, like VT X CT, HM X CT, VT X HM and other combinations. Could you also please post pics if you have any of these 'hybrids'?


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm not sure what the copper/blue would result in. I believe copper is red based so your going to get a higher percentages of red based fish rather than blue.

Crossing tail types is not something I would suggest.. especially for a new breeder. You will end up with a lot of messy fins and you'll have to cull or adopt out a lot of the fish.

mixing anything with VT is going to yield almost 100% VT. Crossing VT with CT is going to give you VT with really ugly fins, varying degrees of web reduction, an all around tattered look. Crossing CT with HM is going to give you mainly tattered looking fins but you may get some half suns or CTs from the bunch. VT and HM is going to give you VT with maybe a wider tail base.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

You'll get multicolors, likely metallic blue-greens with lots of red wash. Longfin is dominant over plakat, and crowntail is partial dominant, so they'll look most like veiltail combtails.

I agree with 1f2f. Crossing tails and using fish of a mysterious lineage aren't a good base for a breeding program. Start with fish that will get you closer to what you want to achieve to begin with and you'll save a lot of time, money, effort, and fish's lives.


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## artist4life (Aug 12, 2010)

i kinda want to breed how many babies will their be


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

You should do a lot of research into betta breeding before you even consider it. Breeding bettas requires a lot of time, effort, patience, and money. How many babies you get depends on a lot of things, but large spawns can reach an excess of 300 fry easily. If half of those babies are male, 150 have to be separated into individual containers as they get older--each container requiring maintenance and each fish requiring individual care. Breeding bettas is not something for the average person to do in their spare time.


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## artist4life (Aug 12, 2010)

thank you i will look it up if i decide to persue it any farther


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## artist4life (Aug 12, 2010)

id rather be sure i know what to do before even concidering it


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Start by reading the sticky at the top of the section

also read the articles on
www.bettysplendens.com
www.bettaterritory.nl
BETTAS by Jim Sonnier/genetics


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with Adastra and 1fish2fish.


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

That, and the start up costs can be up to $500!


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

$500?!?!??!?!!?!?!? that much?! why would it cost that much?! i thought that it would be a maximum of $100. i thought all you need is a tank, sponge filter or an alternative, fry food, some jars, heater and the two fish themselves? did i miss out something?


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

Oh yea and what would happen if I bred a copper PK with a giant PKFM? Im not sure what colour the female will be but i think that they were a pretty dull colour and looked like an average size. Also just forget about the sponge filter i mentioned in the previous post as I just realised that theyre not necessary.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Here is an average of my start up costs

1 pair (non sib) $30 (no shipping because I got them at an auction)
2nd pair (non sib) $17 (female was free, no shipping charges)

2 10 gallon tanks- $15 (I got them off craigslist and glued a crack in one of them)
aquarium glue- $5

Java moss- $41 (including shipping.. bought from 3 different people)
Hornwort- $5 

Microworms, Banana worms, walter worms- $8
Vinegar eels- $5
vinegar- $3
oatmeal- $4
tupperware containers- $3
Brine shrimp eggs- $8
air pump- $10

12 jars- $13

Heaters- $40 (plus an additional $25 when one was defective)

Grow out tank- $35 (found on craigslist)

Medicine for male with Ich as a result of breeding- $5 (that male died BTW)

Grindal worms- $8
culture medium- $5
tupperware container- $3

That brings my total to $288 (and that is on the low end). Not to mention time spent feeding, changing water, culturing foods,... etc. It is a LOT of work. These fish are not guppies, you can't just throw them in a tank and have them breed. It takes a lot of time and commitment. And even then you may only end up with 9 babies.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Start up cost is the biggest expense, however, once you have everything and growing your own cultures it is mainly just time..... and time is money...lol.....

It cost me nothing to breed........except time......

It can cost you lots if you want it too or very little if you want, if you practice preventive measure and good husbandry then over-head should be low in my experience......


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

Hey, would it be possible to breed a giant PKFM with a regular sized male because of the size difference or what about a giant PK with a regular sized female?


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

The only thing I would add to what has been said about breeding, is that you need to know what you're going to do with all the fish. Do you have the time to go out and find homes for each fish? Are you going to give them to a petshop? If its the petshop, do you know theres a possibility they wont accept them unless you're giving them for free? Or do you have what it takes to be able to cull? In any of these situations, morality aside, are going to be done by you.

For instance, if I were to breed, I'd want to talk to my local Petstores first... see if they're interested in recieving some free beta fish (possibly even at their choice, excluding what I want to keep) or even talk tot he store manager at the local wal-mart (Which would be a hard-pressed situation in most cases). I might even see if any of my friends want a beta fish, and will take proper care of it. After all that, I'd print out some local adds to hang up in spots, listing them as free betas (because I would just want them off my hands so I can create the next batch of cute little critters). Sadly, I will have to cull a percentage of them, its a reality that I, out of my own decision, will have to make. God knows Elye (my wife) will -hate- even thinking of the any of them being culled.

Just keep it all in mind and have a plan.


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok well ive already talked to some friends and theyve agreed to take some and i was going to talk to some pet stores and see if they would take any. Ive been hearing the word cull quite often but im still not sure what exactly it means, i know its not something very positive though. Also back to my original question, would it be alright to breed a regular sized beta to a giant PK and if so, would it help if one gender was the giant?


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## Alex09 (Aug 9, 2010)

Cull= Kill


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

oh... wait how exactly? and could someone please answer my question bout breeding with giants? lol


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

IMHO if you have to get rid of your fry by giving them to pet stores (especially walmart) breeding might not be such a good idea. Its one thing if the pet store takes care of their fish but lets face it 99% of those stores don't. Why add to an already serious problem of bad care and death? I will never see my babies go to a petstore. I'd rather not breed than make them suffer that fate.

As for your question TG. You can breed a giant with a regular sized fish. You'll get mainly half- giants depending on the backgrounds of each parent. I'd advise breeding a giant male with a regular female but it's not entirely impossible to breed a regular male with a giant female.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Sorry but, IMO, you can't breed giant female to regular male. The female should be too big for him. But you can breed giant male to regular female. ..... If I remembered correctly, F1 will be dominantly regular. F2 will be better. F3 should give you 20-30% giants. ...... You won't get 100% giants. That's why it's said that giants are hard to breed. Remember, this can be achieved only through selective breeding (the largest offspring)


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

ok well what about breeding coppers? if i got a male copper PK, what colour of female should i breed him to and what finnage if i cant get a PK FM. if i bred him to a CT FM, would i get a few CTPK in the spawn?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Before I answer your question, I need to know what you're trying to achieve. What type of color do you want to get (metalic/non metalic)? What tail type would you prefer? Do you plan to create your own line (color/tail type)? etc. etc. etc. 

For now I can only recommend that you don't crossbreed to CT.


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

well i would just like to end up with a copper of some sort, possible metallic. im not trying to create my own line just yet. i cant find any stores that stock any PK FM, so ill probably have to cross breed with something. im find with any tail type, i just thought that CTPK would have been nice to have but im perfectly fine with any other types


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Ok then, I'd suggest you use green HM (if you can't get another copper). But if they're not available, I guess you have to use green VT. If you use VT, most of your offspring would be VT. You will get some short fins but then again which percentage will actually survive? Just thought that you should know what you'll be getting and be prepared.

It would take at least 3 generations to obtain CTPK. It is possible but I would not advise it for now..... can you select the right F1, F2 and F3 to eventually get CTPK..... selecting is very difficult to explain in words. But it's up to you. Remember that you must have a plan on how you're going to house your offspring.


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

oh ok thanks, but what could i use instead of a green if i cant get one?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I guess you can use irid (top layer) color like blue or black. Blue should (theoretically) give you the same as green (I have never tried) because they're both irid colors. Black should give you a darker copper such as the black copper. 

I'm not sure about red though. IME reds are difficult to "blend". You always end up with red fins. And you will have difficulty to return to a solid color. You will often come up with some red fins without introducing red. That's why I prefer to stay away from anything containing red..... unless, of course, the red already blends/reduced like coppers or other metalics.


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

well, atm, i have a CT FM that has red fins and some blue on her body, im guessing it wouldnt be a good idea to use her?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, color is personal preference. In my case, I try to produce solid colors so who ever I give it to can plan/have an idea of what they'll get if they crossbreed. So I'm not telling you not to breed anything containing red, specially when you don't plan to create a line of your own. Besides, sometimes you must start with whatever "building block" is available to you. 

If you use a blue with red fins, you will possibly get blue, metalic blue, green, and copper with (definitely) red fins. You may also get a few solid colors. It all depends on which exact gene is dominant in the parents. 
So you can still get solid colors, though a small percentage. 

If they're what you have, so be it. Start with them..... if you don't mind red fins. But if you can get solid color breeders, it would be far easier.


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## BlueHaven (Jul 17, 2010)

I defintely agree that you should not breed fish if you can't handle them and that you shouldn't breed different betta fish that would turn out looking "funny" because people might not want them and they wouldn't find homes.
BUT if someone wants to breed bettas to have more bettas for themself, then I do not think it matters what betta fish you want to breed, unless you want a specific looking one. Then you should not do it. 
I think every betta deserves a home, and even if it doesn't turn out the way you want, NEVER kill the poor creature. Keep him/her yourself or keep looking till you find a good home for him. 
Killing them is just plain cruel because your taking a life away that is completely dependant on you and it's possible this life is the only one it has (maybe, I don't know for sure, but why take the chance?). 
That's why I do agree with not breeding them if you don't want them to turn out "wrong", but if it happens by accident, I 100 percent dissagree in killing them. There are people who would love to take in those who are unwanted.


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## The Game (Aug 15, 2010)

No mater how the fry turn out, even if its not what i intended, I would keep all of them or give or sell some away. The only reason why I would kill any of them would be if they were deformed with a tumour or the likes of that. Does copper fish with red fins looks good or does anyone have a picture for me to look at?


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