# Euthanize?



## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Through of faults of my own, my fish Sirius-named by a friend of mine-is currently having issues holding air from the surface inside is labyrinth organ. He'll go to the surface to get some and you can see the air flow out of his gills in bubbles. I'm pretty sure it was brought on by ammonia poisoning or the like but I'm really struggling with whether I should euthanize him or not.
A part of me is hoping that he can pull through with clean water but I'm really not sure that's that case.

Not really advice, but more some reassurance this is the right direction to go.


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## Aluka (Dec 25, 2012)

Doesn't sound like he has anything untreatable. If he is not getting oxygen he would be dead, him just being alive means its not affecting him much. besides air escaping from his grills, is he acting strange?

we need more info tho

Housing 
What size is your tank?
What temperature is your tank?
Does your tank have a filter?
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
Is your tank heated?
What tank mates does your betta fish live with?

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
How often do you feed your betta fish?

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
When did you start noticing the symptoms?
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?
Does your fish have any history of being ill?
How old is your fish (approximately)?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

What size is your tank?2.5
What temperature is your tank? Around 72 degrees, I know this is low but I haven't had a chance to test the new heater I purchased for him and I don't want it to cause anymore harm than I've already done. 
Does your tank have a filter? Not currently.
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?An air stone
Is your tank heated?Yes. It's one of those all in one under gravel heaters. I have it under a rock right now so he does't rest directly on it.
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? He has none.

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? I was feeding freeze dried blood worms, but he has been fasting for about 7 days due to constipation and bloating.
How often do you feed your betta fish? See above

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?After staying at a friends house overnight I came back to see him very pale in color and red in the gills. Even though I did a 70% water change the day before I immediately did another one. However I was short on time to get to the post office to get the filter for his new tank so I think I poured water in too quickly which might have damaged/stressed him in some way. I came a while later to see him at the bottom of the tank very pale in color and look very lethagic. I've done two more consective changes to remove all ammonia from the water and have him floating in a cup near the surface because he's having problems swimming.
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? Daily 50-70% to keep the ammonia as low as I physically can with no filter.
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Just water conditioner.

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:0.0 
Nitrite:0.0
Nitrate:0.0
pH: Unknown
Hardness:Unknown
Alkalinity: Unknown

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Yes, very pale in color with red in the gills
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Very lethargic until he goes to the surface for water when air flows from his gills in large bubbles. He then seems to be "gasping" for air in the bottom of his cup and then continues to lay there listlessy.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? This afternoon when I arrived home. He was fine when I left last night aside from the lack of poop.
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Completely fresh water and floating him in a cup.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? Does have a history of being constipated but this seems unrelated.
How old is your fish (approximately)? Approx. 3 years old now.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

The biggest issue here is that I have almost no money until Monday-I'll be getting $40. I was planning on using this to purchase a nitrite test kit, a lid of some kind if I can find anything/rig something up and a cheap led desk lamp. 

And I don't want him to just sit there in pain until he passes away while I scramble around like a stress monster trying to figure out a way to make him better. I already feel really guilty/shitty about the situation and I don't want to drag it out any longer than I should.


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm new here and don't know much, but I thought I'd bump this to keep it on top so one of the more experienced members can catch it. I'd hate for you to euthanize if it's something treatable. There are many posts I've read here on heaters...I think a more experienced member might say, if you can monitor that new heater, get it in and get it started. (If I understood correctly that your new heater is not in the tank yet? Or is the one in the tank new and you haven't plugged it in?) I have read the safe parameter on raising temp is 1 degree per hour/ up to 5 degrees per day, but check that. However, 72 is cold, and if you can get the new heater working, you could have him at 77 or so by tomorrow following those parameters. If he's cold, he's going to be hanging around the bottom of the tank looking listless, from all the posts I've read.

I find things more readily on the site by doing a google search, for example: "heater bettafish.com" than I do by using the site search. Some of the more experienced members are the ones who do the stickies at the beginning of each forum topic, so if you don't get a more experienced reply here sometime today, you can message some of them directly to bring the thread to their attention.


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

Actually, I would say do not raise the temp with breathing problems. The lower temp water is likely (thank you physics) to ave more oxygen than lower temp water. Betas can breathe from the surface but do get SOME oxygen from the water .... That's probably why he is alive. While you are solving this problem, you need to consider an air stone or other constant low movement of the water surface to oxygenate as much as possible.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

It's mostly just a precaution, I want the new heater to run in water separate from the fish so nothing extreme happens, such as faulting out and running the water too high...or in extreme cases blowing up. (I've heard some horror stories....)

As a complete side note that's unrelated, the betta you have in your avatar is a beautiful color. Reminds me of Sirius (The one I'm treating) but prettier I guess. Sirius is brown all over with a what looks like an outline of bright blue alone the edges of his fins. (Thanks for bumping as well.)


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

As I said I do have an air stone in the water, I just have him currently floating in a cup so he can easy access to the surface. Would you suggest I lower the level of the water and leave him in the bare bottom tank on his own?

I have had a little plastic plant floating on the surface that he has been resting prior to the steep decline in health, but now he just hides behind the rock and does nothing. I can't tell if it's because he just wants to be in a covered area or because it's near the heater. I left the rock in there to give his at least something to be behind if he gets overwhelmed by the empty tank and to make sure he didn't hurt himself on the heater. (I don't know I was just really paranoid he might get burned or something ridiculous by it, because it's supposed to be an under gravel heater to begin with. I'd rather be crazy and cautious and then stupid and without a fish.)


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

Whoops, just saw you already have an air stone ... Good!


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

What type of tank is it? Do you have a photo? I wouldn't put him in less than your 2.5 gallon right now because the more water, the more stable. If it is a tall tank though instead of a wide one, you might want to consider something shallower that still holds a large volume.

I have no idea beyond what I've said about oxygenation to treat a labyrinth problem, I'm sorry!


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

Yes, wait to hear from the "Jedi" members on raising the temp. Thanks, tekkguy.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

It's one of those really awful cylindrical 2.5 all in one tanks you can buy at Petco. It's fairly tall which is why I have him floating. (I bought that tank after I learned how bad the bowls were, unfortunately I was still not very well educated about their proper care.)

I do have his new 5.5 gallon tank but I don't know how well that little heater would do with water temp which is why I've been keeping him in the bare bottom one (As well as just monitoring his waste, but that's not my biggest concern at the moment.)

I really appreciate any advice I get on the situation to be honest, so thanks for what you've given me.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

The problem is that the heater I have now is one of those one that auto-heats. Turns on after a set amount of time and vice-versa so there isn't much control over the water temp. It generally keeps it at about 76-80. I think it was the water changes is what has it dropped so low. 

I'm basically trying the best I can with little funds and knowledge on the situation.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Seventy is just too cold. You have an airstone so he'll get as much O2 through his gills as is available. You'll want to slowly bring the temp up closer to 80*.

Lower the water in his tank. Get the tank temp. Add an equal amount of water that's a couple degrees warmer. Wait a few of hours. Remove half the water; replace with water a few degrees warmer. Repeat until he's warm. 

By then you should know that your new heater is reliable and at what temp it keeps water.

After he's in the right temp, reevaluate his symptoms.


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

I did find that others on the forum have had similar problems, so while you are waiting for someone else to help as well, here is some Google-fu for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bubbles+gills+site:bettafish.com


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

@Hallyx
Are you saying I should remove half the water and then add water back in that's warmer than the what's in his tank? Or lower it to about a 1/4 full and then fill to halfway with warmer water? And then would I be adding in my new heater to regulate it at a warm temp? (The new heater is adjustable and has a minimum water line so I'm worried about having half the water in the tank gone.)

@Tekkguy
That site is one my favorite snarky responses. As for the bubbles from the gills they are definitely the bad not normal kind which is what I found in most of those results when I looked for them on my own. There was only one response that seemed similar to my situation and their's eventually passed away.


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

If your new heater is _submersible_...you can mount it horizontally near the bottom of the tank, which will allow you more flexibility with the water level, whether you keep the tank full or not. The heater would remain submerged during the water changes, too. If it is submersible, it should say so on the box.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Honestly getting mixed reviews, the instructions indicate that if it is dropped in the water I should unlpug before it I retrieve it and nothing in the instructions/box say it is, but then amazon reviews are saying that it's submersible. 

I'll keep looking.


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

What type is it? Brand name?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

http://www.amazon.com/Hydor-25W-Submersible-Aquarium-Heater/dp/B0006JLPG8

I had heard good things about it.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I would get him into a Long, shallow critter keeper to make it easier to reach the top. I disagree with tekkguy, I would raise it to 76 degrees ASAP if you want him to heal. That, and keep his water very clean. IMO there is no need to euthanize for simple breathing problems.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I'd love to get him something shallower, but like I said I have no money until Monday...like none.
I could install the new heater and raise it slowly...the tank is about 72 or 73 right now.

Well the only thing I've found that sounded like my situation was about someone's betta drowning because he couldn't get any air to his labyrinth organ. And watching him struggle his way to the surface and try to gulp down air to only have it roll right out of his gills looks really awful. Not to mention his pale color.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Yes, but I really would not euthanize on something he can live with or that he can recover from. I would place the heater in at its lowest setting and slowly raise it to the desired temperature. No more then one degrees an hour.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Would you suggest I continue to float him in the cup? Or just let him be in the tank normally? As I said it's fairly tall so...


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

That hydor theo heater is AWESOME. I have the same one. Yes, it is submersible. Yes, you can mount it totally under the water (dial and all), so it can be horizontal, vertical, diagonal...with the current water change to raise temp that Hallyx suggested, I'd go horizontal near the bottom of the tank. If you keep him floating in the cup, the warmer water is going to rise to the top of the tank anyway. Just sent you a PM, by the way.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Some people like Hydor. I have never had a good one. I use 25w Marineland Visitherm in the smallest of my tanks. Jager is also good.

I wouldn't use an airstone in something so small unless you have an airline control valve that was able to turn it into a mist.

In my experience with every betta I've owned, they fought the current constantly with no control valve, and this is the softest bubbles I could find. I use two in all mine. Turn it off for a few hours and see if he acts better.

72 is freezing and while you may not want it super high, it needs to be at minimum 76, but ideally at least 78. I don't agree leaving him freezing will help.

I would cut back to two or three changes a week - one or two 50% where you leave him int eh tank and one 100% where you scoop him with a solo type cup and thoroughly rinse everything, especially the gravel to remove debris.

You need to use his in tank thermometer to match the tap and get the exact same temp during a water change. Then the water should be premixed (you can use gallon water jugs from the grocery store that are rinsed in hot water only and no chems if you have nothing else) with conditioner before your fish ever feels the water. For the 100% I would also use an acclimation period of 1 hour, while the fish floats inside his cup in the cleaned tank while you add a couple tablespoons of new water every 10 minutes. Try to let as little of the cup water back into the tank as possible while releasing. Make sure the cup is opaque as well.

If you haven't been matching temp or providing acclimation during huge changes this could be the cause of your problems.

Was he always getting this many water changes? If not, what were you doing before?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I've only been so consistant on water changes because he currently has no filter in the tank. (Before the air stone was part of an under gravel filter system.) And I would check the ammonia level at night to find it being almost 4.0 ammonia or above. He has been getting the large water changes for almost a week now and been doing fine. Still swimming well even with the high ammonia, it was only until I came in this afternoon to find him looking so sluggish and depleted in health. I don't know if this could be tied to his constipation at all but I assumed it was unrelated...could it be tied together after all?

My problem might be the mismatching in temp when doing the changes, but I have been making sure to acclimate him properly when I do full water changes. I was contemplating the adding of slightly warmer water like Hallyx suggested, but that seems to contradict what you've said. Would you suggest just adding the new heater in and bumping it up about one degree every 1-1:30 hours?
As of right now he's still floating in the cup because of his swimming troubles. I've been getting mixed signals about allowing him to just be in the tank as opposed to floating because of the tanks height.

As of right now this is the best thing I can think to do:
Deplete half of the water in the tank, add new heater and bump up about 1 degree every hour, and remove the air stone. I'm also thinking of draping a towel over the tank because it's going to be light soon-stayed up all night worried about this, heh-and I've heard the darkness will cause him less stress.

Does this sounds like a good idea?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

4ppm is into the lethal range It should never be allowed to get to that point. This is why the weekly 100% is necessary and that includes a thorough rinsing of gravel and everything.

The daily changes you are doing are not working well enough to remove ammonia source, and not matching temp is just causing extra issues.

It's very important you acclimate to higher temps. You absolutely need an in tank thermometer to monitor things. Set the heater well below what the thermometer is showing the tank to be. Slowly click it up one degree until it just comes on. Wait for the heater to shut off and the tank to come to temp. It should not raise things above a degree. If it does, there is a problem. Wait an hour after the tank reaches temp, then click it up again.. repeat.. no more than 5 degrees per day.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm well aware insane that level is, I was confused at first but I just assumed it was because there was no filter. But there is no gravel or anything else either, just a rock to rest on and a plastic plant floating at the top for him if he wanted to rest near the surface.

I'll put the heater and try to follow your instructions, but would you suggest I leave him floating in the cup on the surface? Or should I follow through with what I have outlined above?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Do yo have pics of him and his whole tank?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Not currently, I do have some from about a week ago that show his bloated stomach. He looks essentially the same except very pale in color with what looks like inflamed gills.

I would take new pictures, including the tank but the camera is in my mother's room who is currently sleeping. If it help any it's just a cylinder that seems about 12" tall by guesstimate. The rock is zebra rock if that means anything.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I have removed everything from the tank, save the new heater and the in tank thermometer. The tank seems to be about 74 degrees before I took the old heater out.

I currently have the new heater set to 71 and I'm waiting to see if it will register and flick on. 

Sirius is still in his cup, I'll go back to floating him for now unless someone suggest otherwise.


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

Pasdio said:


> @Tekkguy
> That site is one my favorite snarky responses. As for the bubbles from the gills they are definitely the bad not normal kind which is what I found in most of those results when I looked for them on my own. There was only one response that seemed similar to my situation and their's eventually passed away.


I promise it wasn't intended to be snarky! It was easier on my iPad to do that than type out an explanation of how to Google on only one site.

I missed the airstone comment when I mentioned the heater ... listen to the others on that!


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

How is the temp now? Any changes in his behavior?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Sorry about the disappearance, kind of needed to sleep.....
Anyway, the water is still not quite up to temp but I'm doing the slow climb every hour.

As for behavior he is still laying in the cup looking just as awful as before. I'm aware that raising temp will help a little but from my understanding bettas need a functioning labyrinth organ to stay alive otherwise they will "drown" in a sense. He may be getting SOME air now but is there any way I can improve this?


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

PM those expert moderators you've heard from so far so they are sure to see your latest post.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Dont feel bad..im struggling with the same prob and havent decided to euthanize just yet either..but my VT is struggling hard to breath as well he cannot open his mouth..to eat and it looks like he has some kind of pimply inflammation arpund his mouth area..but his temp is 79-81 and..he also has an air stone..as the filter and light just died..in the minibow..2.5 i trannsfered him to..its such a tough decision..and i k.ow my boy is sufferong too..


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

OK, trying to sort through four pages of posts here.... Does this summarize what's going on?

- 2.5 gal tank, but currently floating in a cup
- 72 degrees F, but temp is currently being raised to (what?)
- No filter
- Air stone
- flat preset heater (but you're concerned he'll get burned on it, so it's under the gravel)... and you have a new 25W adjustable heater
- fasted for 7 days due to constipation and bloating
- water change acclimation rushed 
- daily partial water changes to keep ammonia low (since he's in a cup)
- about 3 yrs old

If that's all correct, then:

I would keep him in the 2.5 gal tank with a lowered water level (or just enough water to cover the heater, if you need more than that). This will allow him to reach the surface easily, but will provide a larger amount of water overall so that ammonia won't build up so quickly. (Don't worry about him getting burned on it. It's only going to raise the water temp to about 79F. Our own body temps are 98.6F. So the heater isn't even as warm as we are.) 

The preset heater may be fine for heating this small volume of water, or you can use the new adjustable heater.... But when raising the temp, raise it no faster than 1 degree per hour, with 5 degrees per day max. (I think Callistra mentioned this already.)

Is he still bloated? Has he pooped at all? How much Epsom salt did you have him in, and for how long?

How did you acclimate him after doing partial water changes?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Just to remind everyone of the "similar threads" column just below these posts.... especially the first one which is running concurrently with this thread.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Here is a pic of my Crimsons face..


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I did have the flat all in one heater under a rock that I left in the tank for him to be behind because I didn't want him to get stressed from being in a bare tank. (I had read several places that can happen.) I have however moved the new heater into the tank which I am bumping up one degree per hour as instructed.
He is currently being fasted and I tried to feed some spinach last night but with no luck, other than fasting and this he has had no other treatment because I have been so short on money. He has still not pooped as of right now.
I have been apparently been doing partial changes incorrectly and would just slowly the pour the water into the tank, except last time where I was definitely not as careful in my rush to the post office.

I think that covers everything.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

In the mean time I would like to thank everyone who has offered me some advice. I don't mean to be badgering or obnoxious I'm just trying to get as much knowledge as I can so I can try and help him. I really appreciate it.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

The one thing that no one seems to be addressing is the questions about the labyrinth organ, I understand he is getting some air now, but I expect the situation to decline rather than improve at this point and I'm worried about his quality of life in the long run. I don't have that many resources to make him better and I don't want him to be subpar and in pain/living with troubles for the rest of his life when I could just let him go now.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I didn't address the labyrinth issue because you said he is suffering from ammonia poisoning - and the best way to cure that is to keep him in clean, warm water, and then wait to see how he does. I don't think there's much more you can do right now.... Assuming the ammonia caused inflammation of the mucous membranes, then it's just a matter of waiting to see if they can heal. I'm thinking that he's made it through today, so hopefully, he'll be OK. Bettas are pretty tough little fish.  

Why do you say that you expect his condition to decline? Is there a reason you feel this way? Compared to this morning when you started the thread, how does he look now? Does he look better, worse or about the same now? Or, if you want people to see how he's breathing, is it possible to post a video?

What's the temp in the tank now? And what's the water depth?

Also, I don't remember if anyone recommended keeping the lighting dim, or covering his tank. They seem to be calmer when kept in the dark. You may want to wrap a towel or sheet around the tank - but make sure it doesn't insulate it too much and cause the temp to rise too quickly. Or, if you can, just keep the light off in the room. 

I wouldn't try feeding him spinach. When was the last time he ate? Bettas can go quite awhile without eating. And if he's not feeling well, he may not want to eat. 

I really think you just need to keep him in clean, warm water. Minimize stress. And just give him some time to see if he heals up.

You can also look into adding a source of tannins. Indian Almond Leaf (IAL) may be hard to get, but you could also use Oak Leaves (OL). (Some people have also said they use decaffeinated green tea.) If you want to try this, you can search for posts by OldFishLady, or PM her. She explains the procedure to use these in a lot of her posts.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

The temp in the tank has still not risen (I kind of fell asleep for a little while.) but I am still bumping the temp every hour again like suggested. He is however still floating in his cup I can lower the water level... I just never got a definitive answer when I asked if I should do so or not. I have been sure to keep the light near him off though because of what you said above.

It's mostly because he declined so quickly in health yesterday. He had been fine all week and showed no signs of ammonia poisoning as I had been careful to watch it with no filter in the water, I feel it was the last water change that did it. I think I was too hasty with pouring all that water back in and wounded him in some way. His health hasn't gotten any worse, but it also hasn't improved.
He's still sitting there at the bottom of the cup, until I come by to bump the temp when he shoots to the surface takes a gulp of air-which then rolls out of his gills-and sinks back to the bottom of the cup and seems to be *gasping* for air for a few seconds. His color has not improved, though the times when he is just sitting there his gills seem to be moving a lot slower than before.

I just tested the water and the ammonia is about .25-.50 and I would like to do a water change I just don't know how to go about doing it right now...


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Ammonia is still getting too high.

With ammonia the way it was he has ammonia poisoning. He can't recover in that cup which is building ammonia so fast. You need to do a lot more changes or get him in something larger.

Post #26 talks about water changes.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Alright.
I've reduced the water to 50% in the tank, cleaned it out, and replaced it with new water. (Making sure it was the same temp before I added conditioner.) He is floating to acclimate right now and every 15 min. or so I remove 2 tblspn. of his cup water and replenish it with the tank water. The heater is on and has bumped the temp to 74, but I'm being careful to not let it raise too quickly. Once he's in the tank normally I'll cover with a towel to keep it dark and warm. Would you suggest I do this daily to keep the ammonia at bay?

I'm starting to get more positive that he might make it, but we'll see. Thanks for the help everyone I don't think I can really thank you enough.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

The goal will be to keep the ammonia level as low as possible. I would say to test it every day. Then, based on the reading, you can make a decision about the water change requirements.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I planned on testing about twice a day depending on what the next few days looks like anyway. 
I'll post again if anything changes in his demeanor.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

What brand of water conditioner do you have?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Tetra Bettasafe.
I know it's not the best, but I don't have the money to go and purchase Prime yet.


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## Renzia (Jan 19, 2013)

Just my own little info here on Water conditioners: I've used/been using Topfin Water Conditioner and their Bacterial Supplements for a while now on my Bettas, and it seems to work wonderfully. I found its not that expensive and it lasts quite a while. I also received Tetra Aquasafe and Jungle Start Right, and both of those work well too. I currently have two of my betta boys in one gallon tanks (While I clean their New-used 20 gallon tank of old salt residue from the previous owner..) and they do fine with it. 

Also, it seems that the 'Betta' Products are just named such for marketing, other than the food. 

Not sure if this will help at all, but I know what it is like to be on a budget! ><


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

^It's especially frustrating because if I had known the proper care for them I would have had all that stuff BEFORE I purchased him. So I'm just trying to improve with what I can. Luckily I'll be getting some money with the tax refund so that will help.

Update:
After moving him into the towel covered tank his color seems to have restored some, still kind of sickly looking but definitely not as pale. I have the cover on it as well so the air is warm and humid above the water, I've read in a few places this is good for the labyrinth organ. There was a bit of a mix up when I initially placed him into it, and he fell into the bowl that had all the water I was removing from his cup but he seems to be alright. I'm just glad he didn't fall onto the ground and get covered in cat hair...


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Better color is good. And *great* idea to increase the humidity level. I didn't even think of that. :/ And yes, it should help his breathing.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

It has been my custom to advise new keepers to cover their tanks, with cling-film if necessary, to provide warm moist air for their Betta to breath. I'm embarrassed to have forgotten this important advice in your case, Pasdio. I'm so glad you got it anyway.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Update-He doesn't seem to be releasing bubbles from his gills anymore when he goes to the surface for air, but the breathing from his gills-which are still inflamed-is pretty heavy and his mouth opens and closes in time with them.
I can't go out to get anything to for him until monday but should I buy a med of some kind to help him? I was also going to buy some NLS pellets but I'm not sure he'll even eat anything or if I should feed him because he might still be constipated. (He hasn't eaten in about 11 days.)


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you're hanging in there and so is he. What the temp now?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Temp is about 76* right now, I'll wait a little while longer before I continue bumping it because I don't want to put anymore strain on him than I absolutely have to. 

I just hope he starts to improve. :C I've been getting a lot of doubt from my family and friends when they ask about him and they suggest I put him down. (Granted some of them think the best way to do that is to flush him....)


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## MiyuMikaelson (Feb 4, 2013)

I certainly wouldn't flush him or euthanize at this point. Particularly because he's showing improvement. Just keep an eye on the water perimeters for now. Here's hoping he improves quickly.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh gosh no, I would never flush a fish, especially while it was still alive.

edit: Speaking of I'm checking the water right now and noticed he actually does still have bubbles coming out of one side when he goes to the surface for air. Thank for the good thoughts Miyu. c:

editx2:The water comes back as having .50 ammonia in, which doesn't seem right to me at all. Does it really build up that quickly or am I just reading the test wrong? I *did* just do a 100% water change after all... I seem to have problems discerning between the .25 and .50 a lot of the time so it might be that. My tap doesn't come up with having any so I'm confused...


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Does he look bloated now? Since he hasn't eaten in 11 days, I would pick up either NLS or Omega One pellets, and try feeding him one. Pick out one small pellet from the container. 

Non-fish people often think of fish as "disposable." But *we* know better.  Disregard their comments, and follow your instincts. To me, it sounds like he's improving. I would just keep him in warm, clean water that has humid air above it. You can also look into adding a source of tannins. (See one of my previous posts about this.)


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

His stomach looks exactly the same as it did when I started fasting him, to begin with I wasn't positive if he was constipated or not anyway, to me it just kind of looked like his stomach because I've seen plenty of betta with a stomach that looked similar to his. I have a couple pictures of him in my album on my page if you would like to see.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Please post pics!


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I can't post any recent ones because the camera is in mom's room right now and she's currently sleeping. But here are the ones I took the day I started fasting:


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Pasdio said:


> Oh gosh no, I would never flush a fish, especially while it was still alive.
> 
> edit: Speaking of I'm checking the water right now and noticed he actually does still have bubbles coming out of one side when he goes to the surface for air. Thank for the good thoughts Miyu. c:
> 
> editx2:The water comes back as having .50 ammonia in, which doesn't seem right to me at all. Does it really build up that quickly or am I just reading the test wrong? I *did* just do a 100% water change after all... I seem to have problems discerning between the .25 and .50 a lot of the time so it might be that. My tap doesn't come up with having any so I'm confused...


In the mean time does anyone have any advice on this? (Sorry I'm pestering again...)


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Your not pestering, don't worry. Get current pics ASAP. Have you tried Epsom salts? Or a bit of pea?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I haven't had money or a ride to go out and get epsom salts but it was on my list to get as soon as I could. I did try a bit of spinach yesterday but he didn't even look at it when it was in the tank with him.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Pea. Not spinach. And if you need Epsom salts cheap go to bulk barn.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

No bulk barns in the US heh, little'lone the west coast.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Oh lol whoops!


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

No worries! I'll find it somewhere. If I remember correctly someone in my other thread told me where I can find some.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I will respond to your PM request here..
Sorry you are having problems-since this thread is 8 pages-I only skimmed over them....From what I can tell....It sound like he is aging out-The ammonia could be either in the source water to start or what I suspect-it is an interaction with additives used-At 4ppm ammonia that is usually fatal and why I suspect that is not the true reading or you have a really low pH that renders the ammonia harmless.

If he is struggling/suffering-sometimes we have to make the hard choice and do what is right by the Betta. With that said, if you want to treat-I would keep him in a low water level tank-without any water movement-temp 76-77F and cover the top with plastic veggie wrap to retain heat/humidity for the labyrinth organ-Dim lit quiet location. Use Epsom salt 2tsp/gal and heavy tannins-water changes 50% every other day using premixed treatment water-Leaving him in the tank for water changes....At any point he seem to be suffering-you need to do what is right by him....Sadly not a lot we can do for aging out-but nothing wrong with trying to save him within reason...

Good luck and keep us posted.....


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm not sure about the PH being a problem because there is no filter and I have been doing water changes in the bare bottom tank for so long that there is no time for a nitrogen cycle to begin. I also checked my tap water and found no ammonia in it. Which is why I'm so confused by it building up so quickly.

As for the aging out I'm not sure about that either because he was doing fine until I came home to find him such bad condition. I don't know if it was ammonia, or something else happened to him but he doesn't seem to be doing well. I'll be keeping him in the low level covered tank he's currently in for about 2 more days and if I don't see any improvement or he starts to decline even worse I'll be making the decision to euthanize. I would much rather let him go in peace then spend the rest of his life motionless at the bottom of a tank.

(Thanks for looking OFL, I get the feeling you receive a lot of questions so it's nice to see your input. c


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Your welcome,

The pH has nothing to do with the cycle per se-When your pH is under 6.2 the ammonia will be ammonium and harmless to the fish.
Some dechlorinators that have ammonia neutralizers will convert ammonia to ammonium too and the test product can't tell the difference.

If the ammonium is really building that fast-it could be due to the fish itself starting to decomp or the process of dieing....Sorry I don't mean for this to sound as bad as it does....but I don't know of any other way to say it....

Positive thoughts.....


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

No no it's okay, I'm a lot less stessed and freaked out about the situation now then when I was when I started the thread. I'll be keeping a close eye on him for the day and make the decision to continue treating him or to finally let him go. 
My hopes are for him to turn it around and start getting better, but I've accepted that it's not all that likely.


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## Renzia (Jan 19, 2013)

Wal~Mart has Epsom Salts... So do CVS and Walgreens and Pretty much any Store with a health department. 

Walmart - I think they have a giant bag for 3-5 dollars? .... Something in that range. Sorry I am not more of a help on this, but I do offer what help I can. Hope he pulls through!

As OFL said : Positive thoughts!


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## Juditko (Dec 28, 2012)

He is in the tank now, not the cup, right? If you can get some Prime conditioner, it will control the ammonia for 24 hrs (I've read)
which should help a bunch since you are changing the water daily.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

You said you'll be able to buy stuff tomorrow (Monday), right? If so, here's what I would get:

a) Epsom salt - Look for 100% pure magnesium sulfate. (No dyes, perfumes or additives.) Available at drug stores and many grocery stores. (Walmart, CVS, Publix, Walgreens, etc.) You don't need a large container, as you're going to be measuring the dosage in teaspoons. Even a small container will last forever! 
Cost - About $1 to $4, depending on the size of the container.

b) Prime conditioner - Available at places like Petco, Petsmart, etc. A small bottle is OK, since you only add 2 drops per gallon. It temporarily converts ammonia to ammonium. But it only does this for about 48 hours. However, using this would allow you to extend the time between water changes. 
Cost - About $6.

c) Tannins - Indian Almond Leaf (IAL) is the best choice, but it's not readily available for many of us. If you really want this, you can order it on eBay.... Or, if you have access to dried Oak Leaves (OL), you can use them. They should have fallen from an oak tree that was never sprayed with pesticides.... If you can't get either IAL or OL, some people use decaffeinated green tea..... (I've used oak leaves. But I've never tried IAL or decaffeinated green tea.)
Cost - Several dollars if you get IAL from eBay. Free if you have OL in your yard. About $3 if you buy a small box of decaffeinated green tea.


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## Nicci Lu (Jan 7, 2013)

Just wanted to throw out another alternative for tannins. Rooibos tea. Apparently its used by betta keepers in South Africa, where they cannot get IAL. It's supposed to have very beneficial properties. I bought a box at my local Fry's/Kroger's grocery store for $3 and some change- it was the store brand. It has to be pure rooibos tea, with no additional flavors.

For more info on rooibos tea, see this thread: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=71248


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

@Nicci Lu - Interesting thread about rooibos tea! Thanks for posting that!


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## Nicci Lu (Jan 7, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> @Nicci Lu - Interesting thread about rooibos tea! Thanks for posting that!


No problem! My male VT loves it when the teabag is in the tank- he likes to chill right underneath it.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

He is indeed in the tank right now, he seems to be swimming a little better than he was before, he would just scoot along the bottom of the tank when disturbed and would shoot to the surface for air and then sink back to the bottom. No change in color at this point, but he does seem to have better control of breathing surface air...holding it in at least.

The little shopping list was also quite helpful because I wasn't sure what to buy. And that tidbit about the tea is really helpful! It's the end of winter here in Oregon so everything is reaaally wet and I don't know how easily I could obtain a decent Oak Leaf that wasn't half rotten from being on the wet ground. Thanks so much for the help everyone! I'll be posting a pic in a few minutes to let you all see how he is right now.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Sorry if the images are too dark, I didn't want to mess with him too much.


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

Nicci Lu said:


> Just wanted to throw out another alternative for tannins. Rooibos tea. Apparently its used by betta keepers in South Africa, where they cannot get IAL. It's supposed to have very beneficial properties. I bought a box at my local Fry's/Kroger's grocery store for $3 and some change- it was the store brand. It has to be pure rooibos tea, with no additional flavors.
> 
> For more info on rooibos tea, see this thread: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=71248


Actually, good-quality black tea bags work well too. Plain, unflavored, no additives. I use Lipton.


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## Nicci Lu (Jan 7, 2013)

tekkguy said:


> Actually, good-quality black tea bags work well too. Plain, unflavored, no additives. I use Lipton.


I thought it had to be decaffeinated?


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

Nicci Lu said:


> I thought it had to be decaffeinated?


You can use decaf tea, but I'd be very concerned about the brand, etc. Even decaf has some caffeine, but the decaffeination process uses some pretty nasty chemicals.

I have heard of people using even extra strong regular black tea. I just use Lipton regular size tea bags. No brewing, etc, just letting it hang around in the tank for several hours. I would not use a LARGE amount of tea, or leave it for a long time in a small tank.

Brewing very strong tea in treated water and letting it cool, then dumping it in the tank is a good way to get rid of BGA, or so I've heard.

Anyway, we've hijacked this thread and should probably discuss tea elsewhere!


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

^I still found it interesting so no worries.

I'll be doing an epsom salt bath tonight to see if it improves him at all because he looks to be doing worse. If it doesn't help at all I'll be letting him go. :c


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I honestly wouldn't euthanize him for this.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

He's listless, can no longer hold himself afloat in water, and can't retain any air in his labyrinth organ. Not to mention refuses to eat which coupled with his fasting has been almost 15 days. His bloat seems to have grown a little over night which is what worries me.
I don't want the rest of his life to be reduced to this state and I have very little money to run out and find things to improve it. And the times between actually treating him and waiting before I can purchase more medicine can be weeks.

It's not that I want to, I'm just at a loss of what to do...


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I've just gotten some epsom salt, would you suggest I just add a tblspn straight to his tank or do a bath instead?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

In his state, add 1 tsp/gallon *predissolved* Epsom straight into his tank. It should relieve some of his discomfort.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Oop, that is what I meant. I wasn't just going to throw it in his tank. He is currently acclimating to a new water change so It'll make things easier.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> In his state, add 1 tsp/gallon *predissolved* Epsom straight into his tank. It should relieve some of his discomfort.


And if that doesn't help, raise it to 2-3 tsp/gal tomorrow. (Acclimate over the course of an hour or more.) He can remain in Epsom salt for a long time.... I would not euthanize for this. He needs time to recover. 

Do a thread search for OldFishLady's posts regarding Epsom salt and tannins. She gives detailled directions on how to use them.

Speaking of tannins, have you looked into this? Adding a source of tannins would be soothing to him, and would help him heal.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Aaah, is it really a teaspoon per gallon? I'm afraid I've added too much then.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

How much did you add?


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

I did a tablespoon worth but looking at a thread OFL has replied to talking about epsom salts she states to use three teaspoons worth anyway.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Would it still be alright to add him into the tank? Or should I start from scratch?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I'm reluctant to bring this up in public but, looking at that overhead shot, his abdomen looks extremely swollen. He's not pineconed, but his behavior and appearance suggests dropsy. Ask Sakura8 or OFL about this. I don't have the experience to make suggestions.

Two of my fish looked like that, their appetite diminished and they lost bouyancy control. I treated with Kanaplex in the water and Marycin in the food. One improved for a while, but it was ultimately fruitless. Dropsy is actually a symptom of a bacterial infection which affects the swim bladder and digestion.

I hope this is not the case with your fish.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It's not dropsy. I can tell you that. Dropsy would have killed him way sooner then this... He wouldn't have lasted two weeks.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

He was slightly curled in the overhead shot, it's hard to tell with it being so blurry. And all his swelling is in his stomach so I think constipation is still on the table.

And as Matt said, he would have died a long time ago if it was really dropsy.

His decline in health seemed to happen overnight. One day he was swimming around just fine and begging for food whenever I was near, and the next he was on the bottom of his tank paled in color and breathing heavily so I'm unsure of what happened to him.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Gee thanks for that comment lol I get it, I get it. He would also be more swollen. So continue treating him for constipation. I had one int he summer who was extremely constipated, but he died after a month (from his refusal to eat). You are doing a better job treating him tho.


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Did that sound harsh? D: I didn't meant it to if it did...sorry ;>.>

I'm trying my best man. I get a lot of sympathetic looks like: "Why would you care about a fish this much." or "Just get it over with, there's nothing you can do." but I'm pretty determined to try whatever I can with my limitations.

I'll look into get some roobias tea like someone suggested earlier and see if the tannins will help him at all. It might have to wait a few days though. I'll also get some NLS pellets but I'm not sure feeding him would be the best idea right now. Maybe some peas....


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## Pasdio (Jan 4, 2012)

Sirius has gotten worse since adding the salt to his tank (I reduced it to 1 tsp after realizing I added too much.) He's gone milky in color and is lying completely on his side now. I've checked the package and it says it's 100% magnesium sulfate...
I did find what looked like a white blob floating on the top of the tank? And when I took it off the surface of the water it was slimey....I don't really know what that means because the whole tank had been thoroughly cleaned when I did a water change. 

I think it would be wise to go back to plain fresh water because he doesn't seem to be reacting well to the salt.


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