# PH question



## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

I have 3, 6.6 gallon, heated, planted tanks, with sand substrate, live plants, and HOB filter. There is driftwood in 2 of the tanks but not the third. The temp is kept at 80F. I use Prime as my water conditioner. The filters have sponges in them, no carbon. Each tank has one betta, one zebra snail, one ghost shrimp and some MTS. They have all been cycled for a while, one almost 2 years the other 2 about 8 months.

My water parameters always come up 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates and PH 7.4 using the API Mater test kit. I know it seems weird that I have 0 nitrates, and yes I shake the bejeezes out of the drops before and after adding to the beeker, lol, but it reads 0 or <10.0 every time.

I recently decided to test the PH coming from my tap because I was trying to determine if I have soft or hard water (I'm fairly new to all this water chemestry stuff so please excuse my ignorance if I say anything stupid) :|

I know from reading up on what I can find/understand on the web that it is much better for a betta to "adjust" to the PH you naturally have in your water than to mess with it and have it fluctuating and that keeping it stable is what is important.

So my issue is...When I test the ph from my tap it is 8.8. The ph in the tanks is 7.4.

So when I do my water changes 1x each week, I'm adding water with a PH of 8.8 to tanks that have a PH of 7.4! Yikes, this cannot be good right? Is this something I should be concerend with? I know there are PH down drops you can buy at the LFS but I read it is basically acid and can "burn" my bettas. So if I do need to bring down the PH in the tap water to match the tanks, how do I do that? Is it neccessary? Is there a natural way to do it? And if not, and I do need to use the drops, how long do the drops work? I mean once the PH is lowered using the drops, does it stay lowered or does it "wear off" like Prime does with the ammonia after 24 to 48 hours? And if it does "wear off" will the "tank" take over and keep the PH at 7.4, or will it fluctuate back to a higher number? I hope that makes sense..

Anyway, any input would be gratly appreciated. Thanks!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's okay to not have Nitrates. I don't have Nitrates in any of my tanks either and they're all planted, no funny substrates, just plants in gravel/sand.

And yes, pH levels can change from tank to tank even if they come from the same tap. My 10 is at 5.5 where my 33 gallon is at 7.6 and the tap comes out at 6.5 lol so quite a difference here.

Is there anything in your tank that would lower pH such as driftwood? And no, if your Betta's have gone this long without you fiddling with the tap then don't do anything to it now. Chemicals are definitely a no-no since they only work for so long and then eventually you get the pH swing where it goes back to it's "normal" which that, that can be devastating. So yeah, it acts like Prime basically but just holds for longer. I don't know the exact time of it but it's not like two day's or something.

But if you are worried about this, when you do your water changes only do 15-20% at a time and add the water back in slowly. Wait an hour or so and do another 15-25% change until you've reached your desired percentage. This will make the change a little easier for your boys at least


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi lilnagrum, thanks for the reply  Yes I do have some thin "sticks" of driftwood in two of my tanks but not the third, however all the tanks have the same PH, which I always found to be weird since driftwood is suppose to lower the PH according to what I've read. So maybe there isn't enough driftwood to make a difference.

I don't have anything in the tanks other than sand substrate (white sand from petco), live plants, small amount of driftwood, a decorative "log" made for fish tanks (for hiding in) and some shiny black rocks that are not porus so I don't think they are affecting the PH. Although something must be changing it if it's coming out of the tap at 8.8 and ending up at 7.4... I just don't know what...

My tanks are supposidly 6.6 gallons, however that's if you just have water in it. With the substrate, plants, logs, etc it's probably more like 5 gallons of actual water. I do a 1 to 1 1/2 gallon water change every Saturday depending on how much I end up sucking up when doing the vacuming. 

I will definately add the water back a little at a time, I hadn't thoguht of that so thank you! Great idea! 

Thank you!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, sometimes it's just different. In my sorority tank I actually have 4 good chunks of driftwood so there's no reason that my pH should be above what it comes out of at my tap so sometime's it just does. So that could be the case here as well.

Also have you tested water before and after you use your conditioner to see if maybe that's effecting it? Then, test before a water change and hour after the water change and then 24 hours after a water change to see if there are any changes at all. It might help at least figure out if there's something effecting it


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Here are my ph results this AM. The first pic shows the results using the regular PH drops. The left beeker is the TANK, the right beeker is my TAP.

The secon picture shows the results using the "High PH" drops. Again, the left beeker is the TANK, the right is the TAP.

I also tested the TAP water after using Prime and there is NO difference between TAP and TAP plus Prime.

There is quite a difference between the Tank and the Tap in the second picture, in fact I don't even see the color results of the Tap on the chart card.

So the question remains....how do I do partial water changes with Tap water when there is this much different in the Tank and Tap?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I can see a difference in the first photo as well so you're sitting at 7.5 it looks. Anyway that's besides the point lol. You may never know the cause of it but as I suggested before, just do small amounts at a time and this way it really won't cause too much of a pH fluctuation. You can do two 15-20% changes in a week instead of one 50% or anything like that.

But honestly, if you've been doing this for over a year or so now then I don't see there is much a problem since it seems your Betta's are doing just fine. I mean, unless someone looks sick or something! it seems to be going well. But again, if you are concerned, just do small water changes through the week instead of doing bigger ones and that will help dilute the pH so it's not really changing much, maybe 1-2 points will go up but that should be it.

Did you try testing tank water before a water change and then test immediately after and then about an hour after that to see how much it effects the water?


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. You've had fish in this water for 2 yrs or so & have not had any issues right? IMO, don't stress over it.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Well they do what I have learned is called "flashing". They all do it, in all 3 tanks, though one more than the other 2. I recently put 4 neon tetras in one of the tanks and I even see them do it once in a while also.

Also my bettas are very lazy, they just sit in there caves and sleep all day, sometimes they swim around a little but not much. They dont look sick, or act sick other than not being very active. Their fins look fine... I was just trying to figure out why they flash, and why so inactive. I know I dont overfeed. I put in one pellet at a time to make sure they eat it, and give them 3-5 pellets once, sometimes twice a day. Sometimes a skip a day altogether....

Anyway, thanks for your insight. Guess I'll just keep going as I have been. 

I'll test the PH again in a little while as I just finished the partial water chg.

I only change out 1 gallon each week, it's supposidly 6.6 gallon tank but with the substrate, decor ect, there's probably only about 5 gallons of actual water in there, so I'm not changing much.
It doesnt really seem necessary to change more than that when my numbers, incl nitrates are always 0, I'm basically changing the water to add back in minirals and top off the evaporation.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

PS, today I slid the 2 tanks in the living room together so they can see each other, maybe they are just bored and need something to stimulate them. I use to show them a mirror once in a while, but they are so mellow they dont't even flair at their reflections anymore, just look at me like.." oh you're here again, so where's the food?" Lol. The 3rd tank is in the bedroom so he can't see the other 2. 

I know flashing is sometimes due to parasites, ich, velvet, bacteria infection...but they don't seem to have any of these so that's why I was asking about the PH, process of elimination, PH is the only thing that seemed "off"


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

yeah as you pointed out, it's more about replenishing minerals. But also you have to remember it's not just fish waste you're taking out, there are dissolved and non-dissolved organic compounds that you may or may not be able to see that needs to be taken out as well, that's more of why we do water changes than just to take out fish waste.

Flashing usually leads me to believe internal parasites. Do they look bloated or just big all around? Do they have unusual swelling at all and are you sure it's flashing or is it just their twitchy usual movement? Do you know roughly how old they are?

I'm hesitant about the neon's, they need a group of at least 5-6 since they are shoalers and will get picky and nippy when they aren't happy so just watch out for that. Also the Betta may or may not attack them, it's been accounted multiple times that they can and will attack/eat smaller fish. It happened with my Endler's as well. So it's just something to watch out for, not going to tell you that you can't but just watch is all


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Lilnaugrim, I hear what you're saying and I agree with everything you say. I've ruled out internal parasites because they are not bloated, their eating habits haven't changed and I put them one at a time in a quarentine tank with nothing on the bottom for a week so I could check their poop and its all round with no long stingy things or anything. I even treated one for parasites in the hopital tank a while ago to see if it was parasites and if he would stop flashing. There was no change in his behavior after treatment.

They do twitch sometimes too, I didnt know this was normal. But when I say flashing, what they do is come out of the cave or log, dart around the tank really fast, slam themselves into things, then lay on the bottom like they are worn out. They've always done it. My one fish, Merlin anyway. Gandalf isn't quite as spastic, he swims up to something, the driftwood or log, and will turn his body and hit it, like he's trying to bounce off it. This is also what Gabriel does and what I've seen the tetras do.

I know the tetras are suppose to be in a group of at least 6, but I didnt want to overstock the tank. The betta and the tetras completley ignore each other. Putting a few tetras in the tank was my desperate attempt to try to stimulate or wake up my betta. I spent a lot of time, research, and money into making these tanks a perfect enviroment for my bettas and its frustrating that I see no movement in the tanks, it's like there is nothing in them most of the time. So out of frustration I threw in a few tetras to try to jump start some activity. Probably not that great of an idea, maybe not even moral, but... like I said, I was frustrated at looking at a tank that looked like it had nothing in it and the hubby was complaining that the tanks looked empty and why didn't I get something besides bettas... but we all know bettas are too irresistible!

Thanks shellica for your input too! I really aprreciate it.


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

Ph will change on your tap water after it sits for 48 hours, its due to dissolved gasses leaving the water, if you want to lower the ph naturally and slowly fluval has peat pellets you can put in a media bag and put it in your filter over even not put it in a bag and bury it in your substrate, and to help keep the water more stable in the tank do smaller more frequent water changes vs larger ones


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Is there any way you could post a video of what you're refering to as flashing? This "will turn his body and hit itwill turn his body and hit it" doesn't sound like flashing. Is he flared out when he does it? Were they flashing before you add the new fish? As for their activity level, some Bettas just aren't that active. I have 6 males, 2 are in constant motion, 2 are medium activity level & 1 will actually hide in his cave for 2 days straight & only hangs out in a certain corner of his tank & another is between low & medium active.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Stone said:


> Ph will change on your tap water after it sits for 48 hours, its due to dissolved gasses leaving the water, if you want to lower the ph naturally and slowly fluval has peat pellets you can put in a media bag and put it in your filter over even not put it in a bag and bury it in your substrate, and to help keep the water more stable in the tank do smaller more frequent water changes vs larger ones


Ok thank you. I'm not trying to lower the PH in the tank, it's at 7.4 -7.5, I'm trying to lower the PH in the Tap water to Match the tank water as the tap is 8.8 or higher (that's as high as the chart goes).

I will let the water sit for 48 hrs and then test again to see if it changes. Thanks for the help.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

shellieca said:


> Is there any way you could post a video of what you're refering to as flashing? This "will turn his body and hit itwill turn his body and hit it" doesn't sound like flashing. Is he flared out when he does it? Were they flashing before you add the new fish? As for their activity level, some Bettas just aren't that active. I have 6 males, 2 are in constant motion, 2 are medium activity level & 1 will actually hide in his cave for 2 days straight & only hangs out in a certain corner of his tank & another is between low & medium active.


I'll try to get a video the next time he does it. It's hard to catch him on film because by the time I grab my phone, camera or tablet he's stopped. But I will definitely try! Thanks. I'll post here when I get it on film. I never notived if he was flared, he moves so fast when he does it. He's always done it, ever since I got him.


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