# 6.5 vs 10 gallon planted tankmates?



## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

I've been looking into getting my first betta fish and was planning on roughly following this guide:





I'm aiming for a planted no filter aquarium, so I'd like to add a good cleanup crew. I'm thinking about snails and shrimp, but not sure which types yet. I haven't looked into shrimp much yet but I've seen that snails can get out of control with breeding? Again I'm not sure which types of snails are less susceptible to this, but I'm wondering if anything can be done to prevent this. 

Other than this, is there anything else that can be kept with a betta? I've gotten a bit confused with all the information I read haha. I really like the look of otos, kuhili (loaches in general really) and salt and pepper catfish. Can I have any of these in with a betta in a 6.5? I don't mind considering a bigger tank, but the tank I liked the best is 6.5 (links below to this tank and an alternative bigger tank).
https://www.portonaquapet.co.uk/shop/Aquael-Smart-Shrimp-Set-30l-White-M56978
Hugo Kamishi Simplicity Aquariums - Hugo Kamishi Simplicity Aquariums

Other tankmates I like the look of are african dwarf frogs, but I'm not sure what else would be possible. Any more advice would be appreciated (also any advice regarding a planted tanked without a filter in general!) I'm not a huge fan of small fish like mollies and tetras but I do kinda like fancy guppies - however I've read mixed opinions on them being placed with bettas. 

This is my first fish (other than childhood ones my parents looked after) so I'd really love to get this right and not have any deaths;; thank you in advance !


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## bevsies (Feb 11, 2016)

I've never tried a dirted tank, but I would watch Aquarium Co-op's "Real Fish Talk" podcast about Dirted Tanks. I wanted to try one before... but it sounds like they can be really unstable. For that reason I would go for a 10 gallon (so the water parameter changes aren't quite as drastic) and I would keep the betta alone, especially since there won't be a filter for water circulation.

Two fish that can usually do OK with bettas, depending on their personality, are White Cloud Minnows and Harlequin Rasboras. I don't know if they would do well in this kind of setup though! I'd wait and see what other more experienced members recommend


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I can't speak to a tank that doesn't have a filter. The minimum I would go with if there isn't a filter is a 10 gallon with the species you've asked about. All are shoaling and require a minimum of six for long-term health. Fewer that six creates a stressful environment as they need the others to feel secure. And keep in mind that by the time you add plants and dirt there are five gallons or less in water volume in a 6.5.

IME, the only "clean-up" crew is us. Other fish, inverts and mollusks will eat leftover food but not poop. That must be utilized by the plants but if you have too many fish it builds too fast. That's why a 10 or bigger would better suit a dirted tank with more than one Betta.

I would not get White Cloud Minnows as they are "Cold Water" fish and their highest tolerated temperature is lower than most Tropical fishes tolerable lows. I know people keep them together but one species is going to suffer from a less-than-ideal habitat. Rasbora a good option as are Ember Tetra, Otos and Cory/Catfish. Again, shoals of six so a 10 gallon minimum.

About the only options you mentioned that would work in the 6.5 would be shrimp but the tank has to be thickly planted with plenty of hides the Betta can't reach for when the shrimp molt; and the ADF but I'm not sure how they would do in a dirted tank as they will put anything in their mouths. For either of these the tank has to be mature which means, to be safe, at least two months past cycling. Both are extremely sensitive to the slightest shift in parameters. And the ADF must be specially fed frozen or live foods. Freeze-dried can cause bloat and kill them.

And, have a backup plan as there are some Betta that absolutely will not tolerate any sort of tank mate.


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

bevsies said:


> I've never tried a dirted tank, but I would watch Aquarium Co-op's "Real Fish Talk" podcast about Dirted Tanks. I wanted to try one before... but it sounds like they can be really unstable. For that reason I would go for a 10 gallon (so the water parameter changes aren't quite as drastic) and I would keep the betta alone, especially since there won't be a filter for water circulation.
> 
> Two fish that can usually do OK with bettas, depending on their personality, are White Cloud Minnows and Harlequin Rasboras. I don't know if they would do well in this kind of setup though! I'd wait and see what other more experienced members recommend


thanks for the reply! I'll definitely check out that podcast. And that's some good advice regarding tank size too, I'll take it into consideration!



RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I can't speak to a tank that doesn't have a filter. The minimum I would go with if there isn't a filter is a 10 gallon with the species you've asked about. All are shoaling and require a minimum of six for long-term health. Fewer that six creates a stressful environment as they need the others to feel secure. And keep in mind that by the time you add plants and dirt there are five gallons or less in water volume in a 6.5.
> 
> IME, the only "clean-up" crew is us. Other fish, inverts and mollusks will eat leftover food but not poop. That must be utilized by the plants but if you have too many fish it builds too fast. That's why a 10 or bigger would better suit a dirted tank with more than one Betta.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the information! Is there any chance you'd know which types of shrimps and snails would do best in this setup if I decided to go that route? I've heard of a few different types but i'm not sure what the pros and cons of the species are.
Sounds like I should decide between a 6.5 with just a betta and a 10 with maybe some other species in too? As well as having the water parameter changes taken into account.
Thank you again!


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## ryry2012 (Mar 31, 2015)

I'd recommend ramshorn snails. Pink or red ones would look good. They don't need a filter. They reproduce rather quickly but not as fast as bladder snails and it's easier to remove them. 
I'm not sure if shrimp are suitable in a no filter tank. They are much more sensitive than snails. That's why many people keep them, especially fancy ones with a filter, heater and aeration.


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

ryry2012 said:


> I'd recommend ramshorn snails. Pink or red ones would look good. They don't need a filter. They reproduce rather quickly but not as fast as bladder snails and it's easier to remove them.
> I'm not sure if shrimp are suitable in a no filter tank. They are much more sensitive than snails. That's why many people keep them, especially fancy ones with a filter, heater and aeration.


Thank you for the recommendation! Hm i might hold off on the shrimps then - is there any specific benefits to having shrimp in the water that snails wouldn't provide? The only reason I'm considering them is since the original video included them, but i'm not as experienced as them so it might be better to hold off on that


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Personally, the only fish I'd feel comfortable with in a smaller, no filter aquarium, are fish that have evolved to live in low oxygen environments. I would worry about oxygen levels in the water, particularly in hotter weather and particularly at night, as I believe this is when plants uptake oxygen and release carbon dioxide. I also would only lightly stock such a tank, as you are wholly dependent on plants and water changes to maintain water quality. 

I will say that I had issues with algae when I turned the sponge filters off in some of my aquariums. Cyanobacteria also became a problem. While some of this was likely the result of too much light and a lack of nutrients and CO2, there was a noticeable decrease in both the algae and Cyanobacteria, when I started running air to the filters again.


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## ryry2012 (Mar 31, 2015)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Personally, the only fish I'd feel comfortable with in a smaller, no filter aquarium, are fish that have evolved to live in low oxygen environments. I would worry about oxygen levels in the water, particularly in hotter weather and particularly at night, as I believe this is when plants uptake oxygen and release carbon dioxide. I also would only lightly stock such a tank, as you are wholly dependent on plants and water changes to maintain water quality.
> 
> I will say that I had issues with algae when I turned the sponge filters off in some of my aquariums. Cyanobacteria also became a problem. While some of this was likely the result of too much light and a lack of nutrients and CO2, there was a noticeable decrease in both the algae and Cyanobacteria, when I started running air to the filters again.


I totally agree. When I search no filter naturally planted tank information, I usually get words "algae", "no water movement", "can foul water" and such. Probably you can get a better result, if you place a tank where it doesn't get any direct sunlight but only a LED or a desk lamp. 



omarimo said:


> Thank you for the recommendation! Hm i might hold off on the shrimps then - is there any specific benefits to having shrimp in the water that snails wouldn't provide? The only reason I'm considering them is since the original video included them, but i'm not as experienced as them so it might be better to hold off on that


I have both red cherry shrimp and ramshorn snails. Shrimp are fun to watch and produce minimum waste. I don't know if they help algae problems. Ramshorn snails are good at cleaning diatoms and decaying parts of plants but produce bigger poops. I started with two ramshorns who cleaned diatoms I had at that time. I don't have algae any more, so I keep them just as tank family members. 1/3 of the tank is covered with moss. There are Celestial Pearl Danios and Chili Rasboras whose mouths are too small to bother shrimp. 
I run a air stone during summer and at night year round.


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Personally, the only fish I'd feel comfortable with in a smaller, no filter aquarium, are fish that have evolved to live in low oxygen environments. I would worry about oxygen levels in the water, particularly in hotter weather and particularly at night, as I believe this is when plants uptake oxygen and release carbon dioxide. I also would only lightly stock such a tank, as you are wholly dependent on plants and water changes to maintain water quality.
> 
> I will say that I had issues with algae when I turned the sponge filters off in some of my aquariums. Cyanobacteria also became a problem. While some of this was likely the result of too much light and a lack of nutrients and CO2, there was a noticeable decrease in both the algae and Cyanobacteria, when I started running air to the filters again.


Would a betta be okay in this environment then? (sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm very new to this). I'll probably go for the 6.5 and get started with lots of plants and just see how that goes for now. That's some really interesting information regarding filters, I'll have one that comes with the tank just in case it's a worst case scenario and I really need one.




ryry2012 said:


> I totally agree. When I search no filter naturally planted tank information, I usually get words "algae", "no water movement", "can foul water" and such. Probably you can get a better result, if you place a tank where it doesn't get any direct sunlight but only a LED or a desk lamp.
> 
> 
> I have both red cherry shrimp and ramshorn snails. Shrimp are fun to watch and produce minimum waste. I don't know if they help algae problems. Ramshorn snails are good at cleaning diatoms and decaying parts of plants but produce bigger poops. I started with two ramshorns who cleaned diatoms I had at that time. I don't have algae any more, so I keep them just as tank family members. 1/3 of the tank is covered with moss. There are Celestial Pearl Danios and Chili Rasboras whose mouths are too small to bother shrimp.
> I run a air stone during summer and at night year round.


Yeah, I've looked into it a bit more now after your comment and the one above and it's definitely a lot more complicated than I first assumed haha, (the video makes it look so easy!). I'll probably just see how it goes at first and not risk any lives, then if it goes well I'll double check with this site before adding anything. Thank you for the advice !


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yes, your betta would do fine. It's why they have a labyrinth organ, as they evolved to inhabit low-oxygen environments.


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Yes, your betta would do fine. It's why they have a labyrinth organ, as they evolved to inhabit low-oxygen environments.


Thank you! That's good to know


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

After you become more experienced you'll learn to tell the very first signs of distress. When that happens you'll be equipped to try a more complicated set-up. I think you'll do fine in the long-run because you've asked questions and instead of automatically disagreeing or countering advice, as so many are wont to do, you've don't further research. Those with the power of observation and an open mind make the best aquarists. Kudos to you!


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## ryry2012 (Mar 31, 2015)

I did some research. If your tank goes well, stable and you will would want to add shrimp, Amano shrimp would be the best pick for no filter tanks. Although no filter tanks can be tricky, you never know. You might be able to have a very successful tank  Every water and light condition are different. I saw videos of a guy who has no filter bottle aquariums. He has driftwood, some java moss, and a lot of hornwort and anacharis in them.

You can always add a filter if needed


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> After you become more experienced you'll learn to tell the very first signs of distress. When that happens you'll be equipped to try a more complicated set-up. I think you'll do fine in the long-run because you've asked questions and instead of automatically disagreeing or countering advice, as so many are wont to do, you've don't further research. Those with the power of observation and an open mind make the best aquarists. Kudos to you!


Thank you so much! I really appreciate the kind words - i'm very grateful this community is so open and welcoming to newcomers. :smile2:


ryry2012 said:


> I did some research. If your tank goes well, stable and you will would want to add shrimp, Amano shrimp would be the best pick for no filter tanks. Although no filter tanks can be tricky, you never know. You might be able to have a very successful tank  Every water and light condition are different. I saw videos of a guy who has no filter bottle aquariums. He has driftwood, some java moss, and a lot of hornwort and anacharis in them.
> 
> You can always add a filter if needed


Thank you !! I really hope it goes well haha, I'll look into those plants too ^^


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

The faster growing the plant the more it absorbs the baddies. Stem plants grow much faster than rooted. And remember that Hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum or Ceratophyllum submersum) do not have roots so should not be planted. Instead, either let them float or anchor with lead weights.

These are my personal preference in weights and you often get extras. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-NEW-Dou...710493?hash=item4415ee3b9d:g:6QoAAOSwfVpYrgGv


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## squishface (Feb 14, 2018)

I also fell in love with the idea of a no-filter setup and mixing multiple fish in a kind of gorgeous natural utopian wonderland in my kitchen, but I would suggest that if this is your first betta, you start simple and easy with a filter/heater setup and single-species tank. Go from there and become an expert as you go, rather than trying to do three complicated things at once as a noob (Those three things being: 1. Keep any animal healthy in an unheated, unfiltered tank; 2. Keep a betta in the same tank with potential victims and 3. Get into aquascaping, which is basically like a crack habit for nerds).

A planted tank is a wonderful thing, and so is a community tank with a beautiful betta overlord! But I happen to have learned a lot (the hard way) over the past six months trying to achieve these things, and it is much more complicated (and expensive) than youtube would have you believe. 

As someone else said, some bettas will attack anything living in *their* tank, and there's no way to know in advance. I lost two neon tetras before I ended up having to set up a whole second tank to put Peter in solitary. Yes, I had read about this possibility in advance but stubbornly kept reading until I found a forum comment that confirmed what I wanted to do, rather than what I should have done.

Then I got into live plants, which required a lot more supplies than I initially understood (high-quality substrate, fertilizers, CO2, powerful lighting) and caused some algae problems. Yes, many people say you can have a thriving ecosystem without all that extra stuff (and I believe them, too), but what happens when your anubias start to melt and look hideous and you search for a solution only to find it's likely an iron deficiency?

Then one of my new plants contained some surprise bladder snail hitchhikers, so (softy that I am) I ended up setting up a THIRD tank (a bowl, actually, unheated and unfiltered but heavily planted) just to relocate the little pests into.

Now I've got Peter the betta in a 5gal planted fluval spec with a single gold inca/ mystery/ whatever snail for a roommate (unfortunately for the snail, Peter nips at his antennae every time he pokes his head out, so he roams around tightly tucked into his shell--his cousin in the 10gal tetra tank is out & proud all the time and I feel bad), my original 10gal planted with the surviving tetras, a cory and a snail, and a 0.5gal bowl about to be overrun with bladder snails. You've been warned. ;-)

TL;DR: I advise baby steps, and preparation for if your betta's tankmate doesn't work out.


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> The faster growing the plant the more it absorbs the baddies. Stem plants grow much faster than rooted. And remember that Hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum or Ceratophyllum submersum) do not have roots so should not be planted. Instead, either let them float or anchor with lead weights.
> 
> These are my personal preference in weights and you often get extras.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-NEW-Dou...710493?hash=item4415ee3b9d:g:6QoAAOSwfVpYrgGv


Thank you ! I'll have to look into stem plants Unfortunately I'm in the UK so those weights aren't available to me, but i'm going to the pet store tomorrow and i'll have a look to see if i can find any then.



squishface said:


> I also fell in love with the idea of a no-filter setup and mixing multiple fish in a kind of gorgeous natural utopian wonderland in my kitchen, but I would suggest that if this is your first betta, you start simple and easy with a filter/heater setup and single-species tank. Go from there and become an expert as you go, rather than trying to do three complicated things at once as a noob (Those three things being: 1. Keep any animal healthy in an unheated, unfiltered tank; 2. Keep a betta in the same tank with potential victims and 3. Get into aquascaping, which is basically like a crack habit for nerds).
> 
> A planted tank is a wonderful thing, and so is a community tank with a beautiful betta overlord! But I happen to have learned a lot (the hard way) over the past six months trying to achieve these things, and it is much more complicated (and expensive) than youtube would have you believe.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for all the information! I'm definitely worried about pest snails (i'm a bit squeamish about snails - probably not the best idea to fall in love with planted tanks:grin2 so i'm hoping to get a single nerite snail and try to make sure all my plants are clean, gotta look into that more though.

You have some really good advice that i'll definitely take into consideration. I already have a few plants that I got with my tank so I might just experiment with a planted tank, but if it doesn't go well I'll scrap it and go for a typical set up. I'll make sure to wait a few months before putting a betta in as well so I have time to check that everything is stable and healthy. 

Yeah I definitely got overly ambitious with wanting to do multiple tank mates haha, I'll just stick to a single betta for now and shrimp/snails, and any future fish i'll hopefully get a new tank for:smile2:

Thank you again for taking the time to tell me about your experiences!


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## Rainbo (Nov 23, 2015)

Aww, I was gonna suggest snails! The buggers can survive just about anything, and are actually good for the aquarium. I started with 3 baby ramshorns, in a quart sized rubbermaid container with a bit of aquarium gravel and a few pieces of anacharis. They survived in there for two week and outgrew the container (I was doing partial water changes every other day), so I moved them to a gallon aquarium, along with a bit more anacharis and some gravel. I did water changes maybe every week or two. Eventually I moved everything into a 2.5 gallon that I had upgraded my betta from, and just kept doing water changes maybe every week or 2. I had the tanks in front of the window the entire time and the anacharis grew huge. The snail population grew to 3 adults, 3 juveniles, and I don't know how many hatchlings, I fed them around once a week. One day I decided to test the water to see what the parameters were, I was thinking maybe .25 ammonia and nitrite. Well someway, somehow, despite not having a filter or heater on the tank, the readings were 0 ammonia and nitrite, and 5 to 10 nitrate. The tank had cycled itself despite my not doing anything to encourage it. Now the whole thing is in a 3 gallon tank, and I've added a betta, filter, and heater.

Ramshorns are actually cute little snails, and will help your aquarium by providing food for your plants, eating algae, and dead plant matter, they won't reproduce fast (I've had mine for nearly a year now) if you do not over feed them. Due to the ramshorns I've never fertilized my tank. 

Oh if you get a nerite make sure your tank has some algae in it for him or her to eat. If there's no algae there is a good chance the snail will starve as most only eat live algae and nothing else. 

Here's a picture of my tank back when everything was in the 1 gal.


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## omarimo (Feb 10, 2018)

Rainbo said:


> Aww, I was gonna suggest snails! The buggers can survive just about anything, and are actually good for the aquarium. I started with 3 baby ramshorns, in a quart sized rubbermaid container with a bit of aquarium gravel and a few pieces of anacharis. They survived in there for two week and outgrew the container (I was doing partial water changes every other day), so I moved them to a gallon aquarium, along with a bit more anacharis and some gravel. I did water changes maybe every week or two. Eventually I moved everything into a 2.5 gallon that I had upgraded my betta from, and just kept doing water changes maybe every week or 2. I had the tanks in front of the window the entire time and the anacharis grew huge. The snail population grew to 3 adults, 3 juveniles, and I don't know how many hatchlings, I fed them around once a week. One day I decided to test the water to see what the parameters were, I was thinking maybe .25 ammonia and nitrite. Well someway, somehow, despite not having a filter or heater on the tank, the readings were 0 ammonia and nitrite, and 5 to 10 nitrate. The tank had cycled itself despite my not doing anything to encourage it. Now the whole thing is in a 3 gallon tank, and I've added a betta, filter, and heater.
> 
> Ramshorns are actually cute little snails, and will help your aquarium by providing food for your plants, eating algae, and dead plant matter, they won't reproduce fast (I've had mine for nearly a year now) if you do not over feed them. Due to the ramshorns I've never fertilized my tank.
> 
> ...


I'm so tempted to get ramshorns now! You make a very convincing argument :grin2: And that's such a cute tank, I adore how the anacharis looks. 
I might experiment with getting some ramshorns in the future, maybe owning a nerite will get me used to the idea of snails^^ Ahh I definitely don't want to starve anything - I'll let the algae build up a teeny bit before adding any critters. 
Thanks again!


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