# What's going on with this guys fins?



## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Yesterday I saw this guy at my LPS and thought his fins looked really crazy.
Anyone know what's going on with him? My only idea is that he's actually red and his fins are curling, but you guys would know much more than I do.


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## Canis (Apr 15, 2013)

No idea, but I'm subscribing XD He is a really adorable fish!


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## GailC (Feb 13, 2013)

You should post this picture over in fish diseases, my guess would be a bacterial infection.


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

I've seen this before, many times. It's blood at the tips of the rays. He has ammonia burns. My CT was like that when I first got him. All he needs is clean, fresh water. Do daily water changes and add API Stress Coat to the water. He'll recover within a week.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's part of finrot, reddened or black area's are both considered rot. Treated the same way with AQ salt and some clean, warm water as Kiara pointed out.

That poor boy needs a good home, I hope you can give it to him ;-)


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

I was hoping it was something easily dealt with  
We haven't got him yet because I was wanting to see what was wrong first, but looks like I have no choice now  He's certainly a cutie.


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

It's easily treated. My CT boy healed quickly from that. His fins will have to grow back a bit, but getting him out of that cup will do wonders.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I know its not good for the fish, but I think he looks really cool like that!


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

THats what I thought when I first saw him too  then I realised he probably had something wrong going on. 
Do you guys think he will colour up yellow? There were quite a few his colour but we have a lot of bright yellows in the shops right now. I'm pretty new to bettas so I know bugger all about colour changes


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## Skyr (May 5, 2013)

he looks cute, and I know it is not good for him but the red tips do make a unique look for him Glad it's something that can be easily dealt with and that he'll be finding a new, good home.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Well tomorrow we'll have a tank freed up (it's currently being used by a couple of rescue mice) so we'll be getting him on Thursday. Hopefully he is still there and doing OK..


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## KohakuRiver (Apr 21, 2013)

You should know that the fact you can see his veins means he probably has Septicemia. It's a bacterial infection of the blood, and can be fatal. It should be treated with antibiotics. I'd recommend a medicated food, because typical medicines that dissolve in the tank are not as effective.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Being bacterial, it's contagious then? 
Could I get these antibiotics from the pet shop?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I actually do not think this is septicemia, ammonia and nitrite poisoning causes things like this and is likely in this situation. The first thing I would try is clean, warm water.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Are you talking about the veins on his body near his caudal fin? I don't think that's septicaemia. In lighter bodied fish such as this you can usually see the veins. 

I agree that the bleeding tail is most likely due to ammonia poisoning/poor water quality. The fins of CTs seem to be particularly sensitive to poor water, more so than other tail types I have found. 

I think if given high-protein food and clean water the damage on the caudal would heal up significantly.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

I hope you guys are right. 
We'll pick him up this avo if all goes well. 
I'm in a bad fish zone right now, stayed up way too late last night trying to save one of my mom's angels who had a nasty hole in his side and is now trying to fight off an infection. I don't think he's gonna make it and it's so frustrating because we've tried so hard getting him to heal and now that his wound has healed he suddenly goes belly up from some unseen infection. I hope this new guy thrives, I could really do with some relief. :blueworry:


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Aww ... :-( Hopefully he'll do good for you. Unfortunately, if he's still there, the ammonia poisoning will be worse. The pet stores tend to not change the water in the cups. I'm not sure about your store, but hopefully they take good care of their bettas.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

No unfortunately they don't take good care of them at all... There were quite a few fish near him with gross cups and I've had issues with this store before with over-stocking and poor attitudes.
I would have taken him the day I saw him but I've had to wait until the tank I will use for him is free. Right now its housing 2 baby manx mice that were rescued from an unreputable breeder. They're getting an upgraded cage today which is why we've had to wait. 
I really hope I'm not too late :/


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Cute about the mice! Still, I believe that, if you had the money, you could've gotten him that day and taken care of him in the cup. That's what I did with 4 of my bettas. I ended up having them in the cup for a week tops, but it was worth it because I changed the water twice a day [I was a freak about it] and I made sure that they were healthy and cared for.

But, by doing that and using bottled water, I poured some water back into the bottle so the hole in the petco cup was uncovered by the surface of the water. Well ... I ended up forgetting about it and accidentally drinking fish water. It. Was. Nasty! By far the most embarrassing thing I did ... EVER. xD


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

I do have the money.. but I rescue mice and am paid minimum wage. All of my spare savings go to my mice, if that weren't the case I would have forked out the $60 for a brand new tank right then and took him but I can't afford to do that when I have 23 mice depending on me to be able to provide for them. 
I know it doesn't seem like getting a tank would have been a big deal but things are a tonne more expensive where I live than in the US and I can't throw my money around easily. 
I hadn't thought of keeping him in the cup, I will admit. In perth I've never had a store let me go home with the cup, they put the fish in a bag & keep the cup. But I could have kept him in a jug or something. That was stupid on my part.  Poor guy.. I will be very sorry if he isn't there tonight..

Btw, LOL about drinking fish water!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Plastic ware containers are great too for temporary homes! I use them all the time and a pack at walmart is like a dollar something, nice and cheap! I keep mine in cups as well when introducing to the sorority so they spend about two weeks in the cups but I change the water every other day, sometimes every day and they do just fine ^_^


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

And here he is! 
His fins haven't changed at all. In fact, he looks no better or worse than last week. His colour seems slightly duller.

The room I have his tank in has terrible photo lighting so here's a picture of him looking very grumpy about his plastic bag. He's a super feisty fish.

Little guy needs a name.. any ideas?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Rodney came to mind and I've got no idea why lol

Perhaps Sunny, Sanders (sand colored lol idk), Sienna, Cadmium, Aureolin, Lion, Saffron, and that's all I can think of


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Oooooo I like Lion.. or maybe Leon?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh Leon sounds great! I approve ^_^ haha


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Leon sounds great! Hopefully he'll do well for you.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

He's pretty inactive... He's been just sitting under a leaf yesterday and today he's in the corner near the filter. He swam around a little bit when he first went into the tank but not much.
His dorsal is quite clamped but his other fins aren't. 
Is this something I should worry about or could it just be the big move has rattled him?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Most likely the big move and then of course spending who knows how much time in that cup. It will take in a while to adjust and start to enjoy his new home.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Great 
I saw the start of a bubble nest this morning which was pretty cute :lol:


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

He isn't doing too well yet. He spends most of his time leaning against the heater, I've only seen him swimming around once and he darted away as soon as I came in the room. I'm going to put him into a 3 gal KK when I get home from work, because I think the amount of space in the 5gal makes him uncomfortable.
His fins haven't been clamped, and the red tips on his fins are gone from what I can see. The water in his tank is all normal (ammonia/nitrate/etc), but the guy at the store tested his cup water when we first got him and he said the pH was weirdly high, although ammonia was fine. So we're not sure why his fins had those red tips.
Yesterday my bf unplugged his heater to charge his laptop without realising so he was in cold water all day. I'm really hoping he's OK when I get home today.

*Edit* I should add that he the room he's been in doesn't get a lot of light. It seemed the best way to minimise stress when we brought him home. Could this be a reason he's unhappy? I'm moving him into my room this avo, where there is more light.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's probably not so much the tank size but if there are big open spaces, they don't like those.

Also you can let him see sunlight for a while, I know that helps sometimes. Kind of like when you get sick and stay in and then you go out for the first time after your cured and it's a nice warm, sunny day. It just feels good  I wouldn't put him in direct sunlight but indirect will be just fine and you can keep a light off him most of the day to help.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

He seems a lot happier now. He was moved into a 2gallon KK and the past few days I've seen him come up for food a number of times and also just generally swimming around.
He is super skinny, I wasn't able to get him to eat for those first 2 weeks I had him, but now he seems more alert so hopefully he'll fatten up some. 
I had him in the jar while I was setting up the KK, and noticed he seems to have trouble swimming. It's almost like the back half of his spine is bent... or something. It could be because he is so malnourished, but I'm worried that he's managed to get himself caught somewhere (like between the heater and the glass) and struggled, hurting his spine. I'll take a video of him tonight if I can and hopefully someone can help.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

not using his back half is most likely due to being malnurished as well as spending a lot of time in a cup. It's like becoming bedridden, after that you have to relearn how to use your legs again and that's basically what he's trying to do except learn how to use his fins. it's going to take some time for sure till he's out and about swimming well.

I suggest feeding him twice daily if you haven't been doing so, this will make it easier to fatten him up. Don't feed him a lot but half in the morning and half at night so that way he doesn't have to go a full 24 hours without food and he'll regain strength faster


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

*phew* I was worried it was something much worse. I don't mind how long it takes, as long as he can overcome it  It was probably made a lot worse being in the 5gal - he spent almost the entire 2 weeks behind the filter, barely moving. 
I feel really bad for not moving him sooner, I thought that by giving him a nice tank and clean water whatever was wrong would right itself given time... turns out it made him worse.

I've been feeding him as often as I can, but only a few pellets end up eaten each day. They refuse to sink so I'm going to try the food I feed Tauro (which does sink) so he doesn't have to go all the way to the surface to get food.. I tried offering him bloodworms, dangled it right in front of his nose, but he just stared at it until it swam away (now it's living in his gravel).

Thankyou for helping


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

How is he doing?


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

No change... He hasn't shown interest in food since the first day I moved him to the smaller tank. He still doesn't move around much, I only notice him change positions maybe once every other day. I haven't seen him come to the surface in a number of days. 
Physically he looks emaciated but nothing else looks off. He is a dull yellow still, with dark/grey/brown mottling (just like the first pics I posted). Those red spots are still there, I was wrong when i said they were gone, they've just gotten a lot smaller and harder to see. 
I don't know what else to do :/


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## mushumouse (Dec 29, 2012)

poor guy.  have you tried asking about him in the diseases forum? usually clean water and some aquarium salt does clear up finrot, but i think there are some medications you can try too when that doesn't work. also, not sure if you've heard this already, but many people recommend soaking the pellets in garlic juice to try and tempt a betta that won't eat.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

I haven't asked in diseases... I'll try that.
Yeah the fish guy at City Farmers pointed me to some finrot medication, but he said he didn't think it was finrot seeing as his fins haven't actually changed at all. 
I was wondering if I should try salt.. I've never used it before so I don't really know what to do or how to do it. There's 2 types of salt right? I have 2 different types in my "medicine kit" but I've never had to use them.


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## mushumouse (Dec 29, 2012)

yep, i'm guessing what you have there are epsom salt and aquarium salt- aq salt is usually used for external issues like infections, and epsom for internal problems like bloating or constipation. i believe the recommended dose is usually 1-3 teaspoons per gallon of water, predissolved, starting at one and maybe adding more later on if it doesn't seem to work after a few days. with aquarium salt, you can continue to use it for about two weeks if it's necessary but if you want to use it after that you have to give the fish a resting period of a few days first because processing the salt in the water makes its kidneys work harder. but yeah, i would recommend posting in diseases about it, with pictures if you can- there's a sticky at the top of the forum with a list of questions to fill out that can help pinpoint if it's really finrot & if there's anything else going on that can be adjusted to help. good luck!


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Awesome news!! Leon's completely turned around. The sickly, lethargic fish cowering in the furthest corner refusing food is no more. Now I have an active, spunky little guy who is actually _begging_ for food constantly  
Somehow I didn't even notice how ragged his fins had gotten compared to when I brought him home until last week. So I've been treating him for fin rot like I should have done in the first place. The difference it made was crazy, within 10minutes of putting the stuff in the water he was moving around and actually started eating, elbeit only by sluggishly pecking fallen pellets off the floor.. but I was so happy I sat and watched him eat every last pellet before I ran around the house waving my arms and yelling hurrah! :lol: 
Now, after 4 days of his treatment he is constantly swimming up and down the tank and actually eats his food *before* it reaches the bottom. 
This little guy is so great, after all my block-headedness and all the times I thought he wasn't going to be there when I got home from work he's managed to come through completely and surprise us all  Now all that's left is to finish his treatment and watch his beautiful fins grow back.
Hooray!!


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Awesome news! That's fantastic! I hope you can get some pics in of the cutie!


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Great to hear, I hope he heals up nicely! Good appetite means a healthy fishy


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

He finished his finrot treatment a few days ago and improved drastically, but he's lost most of his fins and a lot of areas are still blackened... is this normal? I'm not sure if that means I should do another round of treatment or if I just have to wait for the black to go away. 
He's going to lose his entire anal fin, the whole base of it is grey. His ventrals have been reduced to stubs and he only has fragments of his dorsal. His tail isn't as bad as the others but has lost quite a bit of length. (I haven't posted pictures yet because of how ragged he looks...)


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

I would post pictures...it could be something else. If entire parts of his fins are still turning grey it could be another, more serious illness.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Ill get some photos tonight :/
But doesn't that illness kill within days of the black patches showing? His fins have been slowly getting more grey over more than a week rather than a few days. 
I'm hoping its just finrot..


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah the Graphite Disease would effect him within hours and within a day he'd be dead. So probably just fin rot or perhaps something like columnaris if it's more of a film than the actual fin. I'd definitely have to see pics though.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

I've been going through the thread about the 'mystery illness' (I assume that's what you were referring to Viva?) and i really don't think he has it.
The patching on his fins is not the slate-grey colour that seems to be the sign of the illness. His patches are more of a mottled silvery grey. In the mystery illness thread the fish have all passed within 72 hours of the patches showing up, but I first noticed the colour on his fins a few days before I moved him into the KK (which would be about 2 weeks ago). Since then his fins have been slowly tearing up and the patches spreading, much as I assume finrot works? 
The fish in the thread all seemed to act sick very quickly after the grey patches appeared, but Leon has only been acting better and better every day.
I'll be sure to post pictures tonight but I do think it's just fin rot that's gotten so severe because I failed to realise & treat him sooner.

EDIT
re: above comment - I don't think it's a film.. just the fin turning grey.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It could very well be a case of marbling as well then


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

I wasn't necessarily referring to the "mystery disease" which I thought was proven to be a strain of tuberculosis...I was thinking columnaris or some other disease that could be the root cause of his fin loss. If the AQ salt and daily water changes isn't working for him than it's probably time to start some antibiotics.


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## Tamsin (Apr 8, 2013)

Ah, OK. 
I took some photos last night night but forgot to upload them (sorry!). I'll remind myself when i get home from work today.

Viva - sorry I just assumed the mystery disease from what you said.
I never used the AQ salt. When i realised it looked like fin rot I bought fin rot medication. I forget the brand name but it's 1/2tsp per day for 7 days and smells sort of like tea tree oil. I was warned by my fish guy it's deadly if overdosed (that's why I was asking if now that the treatment is finished the grey patches should be gone - I'm wondering if i should and if it's safe to treat a second round). I'll have a look at the bottle when I get home and see what the name was.


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

AQ salt should definitely be tried first before any medications. You can start at 1 tsp/gallon and maybe bump it up a little after a few days (max would be 3 tsp/gallon). Don't treat him with AQ salt for more than 10 days. Hopefully that will work for your little cute CT!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I actually disagree Viva. I know for a long time that I also advocated for salt to be used before medications but upon further research I'm finding that medications are much less stressful than they used to be. Sure 5-10 years ago and more, medications were much more harsh than AQ salt so that's why it was always suggested to use it before medications but since then, we've really stepped up with medications and now they are much less stressful!

Honestly the only thing that AQ salt does is agitate the slime coat and balance out electrolytes which, yes, that is good but it doesn't do much for advancing fin rot. If it actually is more fin rot then I would suggest to start the use of Erythromycine or BettaFix even, KanaPlex is great as well, basically any antibiotic.

Erythromycine will treat more of the gram negative bacteria (which I find mostly is fin rot I believe) and some gram positive, while Tetracycline will treat more gram positive and some gram negative. So if you find that Erythromycine doesn't work, you can use the Tetracycline instead. It's similar to combining Maracyn I & II which you can also use for Fin rot.

Keep in mind though, the more you use a medication the less it will be effective later in life, generally. This isn't always the case but it does and can happen


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

That la for clarifying, I was just going by what the illness thread on the forum says which I realize was posted a few years ago. I e had success with AQ salt for fin rot with my betta Cinder.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, it definitely depends on the level of fin rot that the fish has. If it's mild to nearly nothing then sure, AQ salt is going to help. It's mostly the daily water changes that get's rid of it though. For more severe cases medication should be used.

Since Tamsin explained that nearly the whole anal fin is going to fall off, yeah, I think it's time for actual medications lol

I would still like pictures Tamsin of him to be sure.


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

I see. And, yes pictures would be great!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I always use a conservative treatment if possible before jumping strait to meds, mainly because of the antibiotic resistant bugs that humans are creating because of our overuse of antibiotics... And that's definitely something I would like to prevent. Of course, if fins are falling off or (in my case right now) the mouth is rotting, it's time to use meds... But a fish with fin rot doesn't need them.


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