# Betta sticking head into the stones....normal?



## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Hi again Guys,

It looks like I need to call on your experiences and advice again please.

The newest of my Bettas Chimlin has taken to sticking his head right into the stones on the bottom of the tank. He`s started to look really pale too and seems to want to `sleep` tucked away all the time.
The heater in the tank has taken some fiddling about with and I think I`ve managed to get the water to approx 84. I`ve done a 90% water change today, reading the advice on here I thought it best to keep the water as clean as possible in case Chimlin does have something wrong with him that maybe he shouldn`t.

Is this `normal` behaviour for a Betta or need I be worried that there`s something wrong? :-?

Lise x


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

To add to the above.....
I`ve just noticed that Chimlin has some sort of white stuff on him.....looks like a powdery kind of film on him. I`ve taken some photos to try and show as best as I can what I mean:




















This is how he spends most of his day:


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## Nataku (Feb 22, 2009)

Definitely looks like ich to me. Better put some salt in the tank and get some meds (something with formalin and/or malachite green in it will do, I like using Quick Cure, but work with what you can find) to start a treatment regimen or you'll have a dead fish in your tank pretty quick.
Remove the rocks and decorations of the tank, they are only acting as a great place for the tomites (the 'egg' equivelant of the ich protozoa) to lay until they hatch again and attach themselves to the fish. They will need to be thoroughly washed and left out to dry for at least 48 hours. They also need to be removed because the medication you will be using on the fish can and will stain decorations.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for your prompt reply Nataku!!

I`ve just completely emptied the tank and have washed it out with water as hot as my hands could take. Should I continue to put conditioner in the water before I put Chimlin back in? I googled ich just after your reply and it says that I should add salt to the water....what kind of salt? I don`t have any aquarium salt at home :-?

I`m more worried now because the lines of colour that were a gorgeous pink have now turned a blood red colour on his fins and tail.....does this mean that the ich has advanced too far??

I`m sorry for all the questions but I feel all panicky now, I really want to be able to sort this, for Chimlins sake obviously more than mine :-(

Lise x


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Use aquarium salt.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

I don`t have any aquarium salt at home dramaqueen and there`s nowhere open now where I can get some :-?


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## Nataku (Feb 22, 2009)

*kicks browser for eating my first attempt at posting this*

Aquarium salt is the best thing to use, but if you do not have any available and can't get to a store to go pick some up I recommend looking in your cupboards to see if you have any 'kosher' or rock salt. This will also work. If you have none of that, then our last alternative is normal iodized table salt. Iodized or not does not matter to the fish, it is the anti-caking agents in the salt that cause us to normally not recommend using this on fish, as it can bind to their gills and make if more difficult for them to breath. If you have the bottle the salt came in, look up the ingredients and see what they put in it. Obviously this should not be used over any long terms due to it's risks, and a water change and proper aquarium salt added as soon as you can get some is the best way to go.

I don't know what 'pink lines' you are referring to? The 'ich' itself can be seen as the white spots forming all over the fish. It is not uncommon for a sick fish to loose/change color and become very pale.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

*kicks herself too for not having aquarium salt* :roll:

I do have some rock salt Nataku, how much would you recommend that I use?
I now have Chimlin in a totally empty tank with approx 12/14 litres of warm water and the heater on the wall of the tank.

Chimlin is a pale pink with slightly darker pink colouring on his fins and tail normally but I`ve noticed that the normal coloring has begun to turn to a blood red colour instead, much darker than normal. Is it a sign that the ich is very advanced?

Is this something that he could have had when I bought him, just not noticeable? I only got him 4 days ago :-(


Thanks again for being so prompt with your replies.

Lise x


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## Nataku (Feb 22, 2009)

I'd treat with rock salt same as I do with aquarium salt, 1 tsp per gallon. Watch him closely when you add it though and for the next several hours afterwards, most fish take it pretty well, some fish throw utter hiss fits over the change in water parameters. If he reacts very poorly, then its a 50% water change to reduce the amount of salt, put in fresh un-salted water, and see if he tolerates this half-dose any better. 

Considering you've only had him four days, the light pink body and darker pink fins could very well not even be his real coloring. Bettas are notorious for changing colors when being brought home from the store. Because of the short time frame between being in the store and this illness, I'm going to go ahead and say this fish already probably had ich when he was in the store, and it's only becoming more apparent now, several days later (because the amounts of spotting we're showing in those pictures say this is a pretty sick fish who ahs had ich for more than a couple days). When I've brought home bettas with ich, I just disregard any changes in body coloration as a diagnostic sign, because I don't know if that was the fish's real color to begin with, or how much of it was from poor qater quality/disease. The things you should be watching for are the spots, and the betta's overall behavoir and gill movement. If he makes it through treatment, then worry about what color he ends up.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Ok I`ve added the salt, slightly over 3 tsp for the 12/14 ltrs of water, he seems to be ok with it at the moment but I`ll keep my eye on him....it`s gonna be a late night but I won`t be going to bed for a while yet!

I`m not bothered about what colouring he`ll turn out to be, he`s gorgeous no matter what colour he is, I was just a bt worried about the blood red colouring, hoping it wasn`t this ich (parasite) doing him too much damage. 
I`ll be making sure that the first port of call in the morning is the LFS to get the correct treatment for him, I really don`t want him to suffer any longer than is humanly possible.

Thankyou ever so much Nataku for your help and advice, I really do appreciate it.

Lise x


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

I second using Quick Cure. It has worked for me in the past and generally works much faster than the salt treatment. I don't think it's advisable to use both the med and salt at the same time however. I'd say get the salt in there now, and get a med (because this is an advanced case by the looks of it) ASAP but do a 100% water change before adding it to the water. Dose as directed. Hope this helps.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks Kim.

I`m hoping that the LFS here has exactly what you and Nataku have suggested.....am I right in thinking you`re not in the UK? 
Same products just different names sometimes I think??

I don`t think I`ll be going back to the shop where I bought Chimlin because I`ll probably get a bit p*ssed off with the guy in there so I`ll go to the other shop and speak to them and make sure I can get `Quick Cure`

I feel so sorry for Chimlin, I just thought he was staying out of the way because having brought him home on Saturday he may have been a bit stressed at the changes.....I didn`t realise he was so poorly :-(

He`s barely moving around, theres nothing in the tank except the heater and the poor guy has nothing to hide under. I just want to get him better again .


Lise x


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## Nataku (Feb 22, 2009)

I am located in Florida, in the good ol' US of A. Quick Cure is one of the most easily available of the various fish meds you can find here. Even my local wal-marts carry it. Honestly haven't been to England to have a look at what oyur local stores carry, but I should hope you also have something of the sort. Quick Cure is the brand name, so it should be labeled as such.
Should look pretty similar to this:









However, if your stores in England don't carry this, you will want to find a medicine that carries formalin and malachite green as ingredients (write it down on a notepad if you have trouble remembering the names, the fish store employees ought to recognize what you're talking about when you say those names). These are the things we want as they will kill the ich. Quick Cure is just what I recomend becaue it is the cheapest, most easily available stuff around here and it works.

Since he's sick and is now under quarantine, I wouldn't worry so much about decorations for him. My quarantine tanks are very sparse: bare bottom, nothing but a heater and a white section of 1 1/4 inch PVC coupling for a cave. Sometimes not even that.

As a future note if you ever go to a fish store looking to buy another fish: take a flash light with you. A nice pen light goes with me at all times when I go to stores, because you can shine that on the betta, and it will make many signs of illnesses much easier to spot.It's also handy with bettas to help determine what color they may really be. I've picked up plenty a betta cup at a store that I thought had a blue betta in it, shined a light, and low and behold, that is a red betta!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm so sorry Chimlin is sick. I hope you can find some meds for him.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Nataku said:


> I am located in Florida, in the good ol' US of A. Quick Cure is one of the most easily available of the various fish meds you can find here. Even my local wal-marts carry it. Honestly haven't been to England to have a look at what oyur local stores carry, but I should hope you also have something of the sort. Quick Cure is the brand name, so it should be labeled as such.
> Should look pretty similar to this:
> 
> 
> ...


 

Thanks Nataku 8)


I went down to the LFS and the lad there advised me to use a med called Protozin, it contains: 
Malachite Green 0.085% w/w
Formaldehyde 0.07% w/w
Copper sulphate 0.015% w/w

Use 1ml for each 15 litres of water, use on day 1,2,3 and 6.

He said they use this Protozin to treat any fish in their store that may have ich/whitespot and said it works well and quickly. They didn`t have Quick Cure.

I`ve measured and diluted and added to the tank now. Something I never noticed until the colour of the water changed is that there are what I can only describe as `fluffyish` lumps of `something` lying on the bottom of the tank.....weird! I used a small pipette to remove it.

I`ve binned the live plants that were in the tank, I`ve got no intention of risking them reinfecting the tank so won`t use them again. I`ll buy a different new decoration too once I know Chimlin is ok.
I`ve turned the heater right up so the water remains warmer than usual, made sure there`s no carbon in the filter and I`ve got that running, adjusted it to aeriate the water slightly too. I`ve manged to get chimlin to eat a couple of bloodworms, he hadn`t had anything over the last day or so.

Good tip about the pen light, never would have thought of that!! 8) 
I always have a pen light in my bag too :roll:



Thanks dramaqueen, hopefully he`ll get better. I`ll do whatever I can to get him sorted.

Lise x


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Glad you found some meds for him. Good luck!


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## LaniBaby (Apr 14, 2009)

I'd like to add that you ought to be careful that you don't get any of the undissolved salts on Chimlin. You should use some tank water to dissolve the salts first, then add to the water preferably while Chimlin isn't in the tank. If salts land on him, they could burn him. I've heard of that occurring with other types of tank fish. I use them for healthy fish, too. I haven't heard of them mixing poorly with meds before, though. 

I"m surprised they don't have aquarium salts near you. Not even at the local pet store or chain pet store? I also generally use Aquarisol for an ich preventive. 1 drop per gallon on my healthy fish. Perhaps when he gets better, you may try it too just to be sure it doesn't come back. 

Nataku, is the 1 tsp / gallon recommended for ill fish or everyday? I've been doing 1/2 tsp / gal for years for the healthy guys at water change times. Just curious!

good luck with chimlin!!! Poor little fellow. I wish him well!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I was using just a pinch per gallon. I'd like to know the reccommended dose for healthy fish, also.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

LaniBaby said:


> I'd like to add that you ought to be careful that you don't get any of the undissolved salts on Chimlin. You should use some tank water to dissolve the salts first, then add to the water preferably while Chimlin isn't in the tank. If salts land on him, they could burn him. I've heard of that occurring with other types of tank fish. I use them for healthy fish, too. I haven't heard of them mixing poorly with meds before, though.
> 
> I"m surprised they don't have aquarium salts near you. Not even at the local pet store or chain pet store? I also generally use Aquarisol for an ich preventive. 1 drop per gallon on my healthy fish. Perhaps when he gets better, you may try it too just to be sure it doesn't come back.
> 
> ...


Hi LaniBaby,

I put totally clean water in this morning and added the Protozin to that, no salt now.
I only used the salt last night until I could get to the shop first thing this morning and I did dissolve the salt first, thought it made sense to dissolve it first any how but thankyou anyway :-D

The LFS do have aquarium salt I just hadn`t bought any, I`ve never used salt not even in my 37 community tank, didn`t think it was an `everyday` requirement to be honest :-?

Thanks for your good luck wishes, all I can do is follow the instructions on the meds and keep my fingers crossed now.

Lise x


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## LaniBaby (Apr 14, 2009)

I didn't think it was a requirement, either, but when i finally started using it on my bettas, i noticed an improvement in health. Less issues and diseases showed up. 

Keep us updated on the little guy!


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## Nataku (Feb 22, 2009)

> Nataku, is the 1 tsp / gallon recommended for ill fish or everyday? I've been doing 1/2 tsp / gal for years for the healthy guys at water change times. Just curious!


I add 1 tsp per gallon every time I do a water change on the tank. I don't do water changes every day. But it's 1tsp per gallon for sick fish or normal fish. The amount of salt used per gallon is not really set in stone, different people seem to recommend different amounts, and the amount also seems to differ depending upon the fish you are caring for. 
The only time I change the dosage is if I am doing a salt bath or if I am acclimating a new fish to having salt in their water. Salt baths I use a 1 gallon jar, and I double the dose to 2 tsp per gallon. This is something I do only rarely when a fish has a really bad external parasite infection. Never leave the fish in a salt bath more than 45 minutes, that's what I go by. Some people say two hours, some people say 15 minutes.... I go by 45 minutes. Again, there's no written law on this, it's just something that you have to find for yourself that works. When I'm acclimating new fish in their quarantine tanks when I bring them home from the store, I start them off in water with no salt, and after the first water change they get 1/2 tsp per gallon. After the second water change it goes up to the normal 1 tsp per gallon and continues thereafter.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Well after adding the Protozin today, I have seen a slight improvement in Chimlin. I know it`s still very early days for him but he`s spent a bit more time actually swimming around, he`s still trying to rub himself on the bottom of the tank and laying down but he has swam a bit more. I have noticed that the sore irritated patches on his head and around his gills don`t look as irritated as they did.
I`ve also managed to get him to take another couple of bloodworm too, if he`s eating something then I`m hopeful that he`s feeling a little bit better.
Onto the subsequent doses I would like to ask someone to confirm the fact that I`m not meant to do any water changes until after the 6th dose has been done?? I`m still removing the `fluffy` kind of lumps that keep appearing on the bottom of the tank with a small pipette.
Also IF the ich/whitespot is still even the tiniest bit noticeable do I start the treatment all over again? If so from what day do I start it from?

I really feel for this little guy, it must be irritating the hell out of him :-(


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that Chimlin is doing better.


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## Nataku (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm not familiar with the exact brand you are using, but I continue the dosage until the ich is no longer visible. If you can see it, it obviously isn't gone yet, so don't stop. If the meds don't kill the fish, the disease will - take your choice. *shrugs*
Depending upon what or how bad a fish has something when I am treating them, depends on how often I do water changes. And yes, I do water changes during a treatment regimen, because six days (grabbing that number since it's what your med seems to say) is too long to not have a water change. A sick fish still poops, and so the water still gets dirty. Great, you saved your fish from dying of ich, instead it died of ammonia poisoning (not directed at you or anyone in particular, this is just a generic 'you'). You can't just focus on one thing and forget about the rest, they don't go away.
Being as when I treat my fish, they are in a quarantine or hospital tank which is not very large (1 - 2.5 gallons depending upon which tank they get stuck in) means that they generally get water changes every third day at most. But hey, these fish are sick, they generally got that way from dirty water, at least that's my general theory and thereby methodology in dealing with these things. So cleaner water = better fish? In severe cases of ich I've tried doing 100% water changes ever day over the course of treatment - the betta gets scooped up in a cup, the tank gets dumped and washed in HOT water, hot as you can get it, and then dechlorinated and salted water is added back, the fish is put back in, and then meds are readded. Eh, so far I haven't had enough ich cases to treat with differing water changing methods to come to any conclussion on which is better. I've saved fish with both. However in treating cases of finrot, the 100% water changes every day for a week straight (with salt in the water) have done wonders in clearing that up pronto. But that's not pertinent to this topic I imagine.


On irritating the fish or not: it's difficult to tell exactly what a fish may be feeling sometimes, we're only guessing. I have had several bettas that I have treated with quick cure though that after the first or second day will purposely swim to the drops as soon as they are added to the tank (since Quick cure takes a little bit of time to disperse out evenly into the water). These drops are obviously more concentrated then, logically if the fish did not like it they would swim away from it, the tanks I keep them in aren't so small that they can't move away from the drops. To me, this behavoir seems to indicate that there is something they like about the stuff - probably the itch/pain relief it causes by causing the parasites to go into 'shock', die and release their grip on the fish.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Chimlin seems to be so much better. I can`t see any sign of whitespot at all today, the 6th treatment is due tomorrow, (supposedly the last day), then after another 48 hours and I can hopefully do a full water change  I`ve done a partial water change already and I`ve been removing the crap with a small pipette to keep the water a bit cleaner. (filter is running too). 

Chimlins` colour has come back well, he`s too pretty to be a boy! 8)

Would it be better to continue treatment for at least a couple of days just to make sure it`s all gone? Just because it can`t be seen, it doesn`t neccessarily mean it`s all gone? :-?

It`ll be great to be able to sort the tank out with new plants and decoration and have Chimlin enjoying it like he did.

Unfortunately it looks like Shai-Lin my 3rd Betta has to now be treated, and if it carries on like this Lamai will probably have to be treated too :roll:


The rough with the smooth huh? :|


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that Chimlin is doing better.


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## Elisew (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks dramaqueen, me too! :-D

I`ve got some more plants and a lovely egyptian vase for an aquarium coming sometime this week so I`m looking forward to sorting Chimlins` tank out and getting him back to normal. 8)


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