# My Midnight is sick



## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Hi, I need some help with my fan tail Betta named Midnight. I think he has fin rot but I am not sure. I have been treating him with Aquarium Salt for 7 days, Jungle Clear and just started Stress coat yesterday. 
Here is the filled out info.

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? 2 gallons
Does it have a filter? No
Does it have a heater? No 
What temperature is your tank? Tank stays at 76 degrees always
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? No Mates

Food:
What food brand do you use? Tetra's Betta Medley
Do you feed flakes or pellets? flakes sort of
Freeze-dried? No
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? 2 times a day, a pinch and watch to see if he eats it all. I may feed him again if he asks for it.

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? Every 3 days
What percentage of water did you change? 100%
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? 
What additives do you use? I use RO Water from the store and was not using any additives, I just started Stress Coat because of the holes in his fins

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you.
Not sure of these parameters....I use Reverse Osmosis Water purchased.
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms? about a week ago
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? 1st he has a hole in the middle of his bottom fin, then the edges looked frayed. Now he has a 2nd hole and his top fin looks much thinner than it used to. 
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? He is still active and enjoying life.
Is your Betta still eating? Yes but not as much
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? I started him on Aquarium salt 1st 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, I have upped it to 1 teaspoon per gallon, Jungle Fungus Clear fizz tabs cut down to 2 gallon size and just started Stress Coat yesterday and doubled the dose as I read to do here.
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? No, Midnight has been healthy for about the 10 months I have had him. Although I just lost my female that I had raised from a fry from really horrible fin rot that I couldn't contain. They did not share a tank.
How long have you owned your Betta? Was he or she a rescue? I have owned him about 10 months and bought him from Petco which the people in the store were real knowledgeable and kept their itsy bitsy containers clean. 

His coloring has changed from Midnight Blue (why I named him Midnight) to a much lighter almost peacock color. Please let me know if I am doing things right or if I need to change something...also how can I tell if he is getting better and when to stop the treatment. This is his 7th day with aquarium salt!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I should say that this Betta has a wonderful personality and reacts to all of the family when we go near his tank. He really gets excited when he sees our 4 year old and dances when he sees her. She doesn't tap on the tank or anything. His tank is in the kitchen counter where he can see into the dining room and living room. He gets a lot of input but he seems to like it because he dances for us. I was just saying this in case maybe he gets too much attention???


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

First of all, please stop with the medicines cocktail. You just have a couple oopsies on your basic set up. The fish is not sick, it's stressed and started tail-biting. So once again please stop with the medicines! Keep in mind that they are chemicals, and you don't want to mess with them if you don't know for sure they are needed!

Okay, so here are some things I noticed:
1) his tank looks empty. For a tank that has no filter you need a boat load of live plants to regulate the nutrients in the water. This is also probably why he started tail-biting. He's bored!
2) I'm curious. Who advised you to RO? What did they say? Do you have a certain goal for using RO each time you do a water change? RO water, as far as my understanding goes, is not meant for extended use. It is a common way to lower pH, but even then as I just learned today, it is not good for fish. Fishes need minerals, and RO has none of it.
3) Please stop with the 100% water changes. Stick to a 25% every 2 days or 50% twice a week. Oh and you might want to pick up some Prime. RO is lacking in heavy metals, chlorine and chloramine indeed but your fish is constantly excreting ammonia and that needs to be detoxified.
4) keep him on a strict portioning guide and do not feed him just because he asks for it. Fishes will always ask for more food. Doesn't mean you should always feed them

Edit: you can carry on with the stress coat, but you gotta pick between that and AQ salt. No use using them both. Do not use Jungle Fungus Clear unless you have a clear diagnosis for fungal infection. This part is not just for you but for everyone who's reading this: _don't play with medicines._ Always go the conventional way first (more frequent water change, tweaking temperature, etc)


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thank you for your help. I took out the rocks etc. when I started treating him. I guess I have totally overreacted since I lost my fry to a horrible disease. I started using RO water because that is what I was told to use at Petco. I just did a water change with all those meds in the water. Should I change it again right away to get rid of the chemicals. I still do not understand why his top fin is slowly disappearing and his back tail besides the holes is very frayed at the edges. Should I slowly edge him out of the RO water into the local water so that I don't hurt him? I have always used the RO water from the beginning because that is what they said at Petco and they have those bottles of Betta Water. He started in a 1/2 gallon tank. I am looking at getting him a 5 gallon tank so that he has more water. 

Is the activity that goes on around him too much? He always seems to dance around us thoguh...Also there is a night lite on at night but it is not directly near him. I read they need periods of light and dark just like us. Sorry, Can you tell I really love this fish???

Just so you know, I started with just the Aquarium Salt for 3 days when I didn't see improvement I added the Jungle Clear thinking he had fin rot and I wasn't sure which kind. Then I read that when they have holes in their tails the best thing for them is Stress Coat. That is how he ended up with the cocktail. I certainly don't want to hurt him just cure him. Let me know if I should change out the chemicals and how to introduce regular water to him. I should probably use Stress Coat for that right???


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Ok so this thing is progressing? Like, one morning you see one nip and then slowly it's spreading out? Are the tips of his fins black? I'll be honest I decided on tail-biting just by looking at his caudal. I didn't think that there are other infected areas as well. Either ways, this is how you treat fin rot:

1) move him to a hospital tank. Keep it as dark as you can (I used to put mine under my study desk) and keep the water colder than usual. Somewhere on the 75s. Maybe 74. 
2) pick EITHER salt or stress coat. If you choose salt, dissolve it first before adding into the hospital tank. I think the dosage is something like half a tsp per gal. Totally don't double dose. AQ salt can actually cause liver damage if used excessively on the wrong kind of fish.
3) scrub the main tank. 100% water change, scrub the walls real clean, wash the gravels, rinse the decors, everything. Oh and make sure to throw out anything PLASTIC. It's surely gonna tear the fins even further
4) do a 100% water change on the hospital tank every day until he gets better. You should see improvement pretty quickly. AQ salt and Stress Coat only help with fin regrowth. They can't kill the bad bacteria that is causing the fin rot. In a dark, cold environment however these bacteria will die and hopefully never return.
5) how do you get fin rot in the first place? Fin rot is the direct cause of poor water quality. Please get a test kit and check your parameters. Something's gotta be off. 

About RO: reverse osmosis water is a water that only contains two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. It is lacking in calcium, magnesium, chloride, phosphate and a ton other nutrients that is usually found in a tank water. This is why they are helpful in reducing pH, as you don't add more nutrients while adding the water. That being said, in a tank that is hosting live creatures, these nutrients are essential. That is why people re-mineralize RO by adding a tad of tap water or a DIY chemical solution before adding it into their tanks. So, in your case, you can simply stop with the RO and use your tap water instead. Don't forget the water conditioner. Use Seachem Prime; which will both remove heavy metal, chlorine-chloramine AND detoxify ammonia. Other brands often don't do nothing about ammonia.

Lastly, don't worry about the surroundings of the fish. Say he's starting to look stressed, simply cover the tank walls with some non transparent cloth.

Edit: aha, now you have your own entry to our "diary of a pet store bystander" thread, where we document the funniest uneducated advice pet store employees ever give. Keep in mind that although some pet store employees are extra knowledgeable indeed, those individuals are as common as a white tiger. Always check their suggestions on your own research.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thank you so much for your post. I have put him in the bathroom and am keeping the door closed so it is very dark in there. I have started dosing with just Stress Coat since I know it will help his fins rebuild. I have changed out the water with 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap water so I can condition him to regular water. 100% water changes and scrubbing his tank with paper towels. He looks worse to me so I am attaching some photos that I hope will help you make sure of the diagnoses. I really believe it is fin rot but I have always kept his water very clean so I guess it must be the chemistry of the water since I used the RO water only. Anyways please look at the pictures and let me know if I am doing the right thing. I dosed the Stress Coat according to the bottles instructions. I am keeping him in a 2 gallon tank right now until he is better. Should I reduce the water further? Thank you for your help. 

These pictures are 2 days later and keeping him in the dark for 1 day right after I read your post.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

Seren27 said:


> Ok so this thing is progressing? Like, one morning you see one nip and then slowly it's spreading out? Are the tips of his fins black? I'll be honest I decided on tail-biting just by looking at his caudal. I didn't think that there are other infected areas as well. Either ways, this is how you treat fin rot:
> 
> 1) move him to a hospital tank. Keep it as dark as you can (I used to put mine under my study desk) and keep the water colder than usual. Somewhere on the 75s. Maybe 74.
> 2) pick EITHER salt or stress coat. If you choose salt, dissolve it first before adding into the hospital tank. I think the dosage is something like half a tsp per gal. Totally don't double dose. AQ salt can actually cause liver damage if used excessively on the wrong kind of fish.
> ...


Where ever did you get the idea that the temp should be lowered to 74 when treating for fin rot?? A lower temperature stresses and weakens the fish's immune system - the system needed to help in fighting off the bacteria. A "cold environment" is not the place for any betta, but especially not for a sick one. 

You need medication to treat fin rot. I've used API tetracycline in the past, but I've seen others also recommend API Triple Sulfa, API Fungus Cure, or API Erythromycin. Use ONE medication (you can add stress coat in addition) and have patience. 

The thing is I'm not seeing the fin rot. I really need clearer, focused photos to tell though. More and more fins disappearing every day doesn't mean its fin rot necessarily. One of my boys, Valentine, is a tail biter (he bites his own fins and tail) and when he goes through one of his 'tail biting episodes' there will be very obvious new chunks missing every day. Right now he's recovering from chewing off ALL of his tail and about 80% of his fins!


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## Tealight03 (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm not sure if it is fon rot either. If he is biting all you can do is keep the water clean to prevent infection. I have been told to lower the water temp to prevent bacteria from spreading if a fish has fin rot.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Splashy Betty, Tealight, and Seren27, I have tried to get clearer photos but I only have my phone camera. I put a light background behind him so you could see him better. I do believe that he bit his tail after I emptied his tank because there was fraying on his tails and his dorsal fin didn't look right. He had a color change from Midnight Blue to a sort of Royal Blue. His scales looked a little different so I added the Aquarium Salt and waited 3 days to see if he looked better. He looked worse and had a hole in his tail and really frayed edges on his anal fin. 

So if it is tail biting then I need to add the gravel and plants back to give him something to take his attention off his tail. Should I do that and continue with the Stress Coat and wait to see since I can't get a clear shot of him. I attached the video to help maybe...

If he gets worse than I can add the Jungle Fungus clear back to the tank and take out all his gravel & plants. 

I am sorry that I can't get a better picture. My Miss Peacock female Betta that I raised from a fry had a disease that literally ate her fins off and attacked her body. It was so fast and scary and I tried so hard to rescue her but an Employee of a local pet store told me to raise her water temperature and I did. The disease advanced so quickly that I lost her the next day. I had it retreating before I increased the water temp. So I am really scared about Midnight. I must admit it does not look like the disease Miss Peacock had. Midnight and Miss Peacock were in separate tanks.

I took a video of Midnight and I will try reducing the photos to see if they attach clearer. They are clear on my phone but not when I attach them to the forum. Thank you for any help you can give me.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

The video was too blurry but I got one of the pictures to be clearer...


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## B3TT45 (Oct 9, 2013)

Honestly, this problem probably started due to a lack of filtration and heat. Your fish needs a filter or at the very least a heater, for optimum conditions you need both. From what I see, it probably isn't even cycled, the tank is completely bare. There are tons of lovely threads and websites easily accessible through google that teach you how to do a nitrogen cycle in your tank. Just search and tons of great informational sites will guide you through.

Also, most pet store employees have no idea what they are talking about. Good rule of thumb is to never listen or ask for advice from them, they never receive training or even have to know a thing about fish to work there. 
Raising your temperature can keep bacteria at bay although you got great advice here for fighting fin rot. Good luck!


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

SplashyBetta said:


> Where ever did you get the idea that the temp should be lowered to 74 when treating for fin rot?? A lower temperature stresses and weakens the fish's immune system - the system needed to help in fighting off the bacteria. A "cold environment" is not the place for any betta, but especially not for a sick one.
> 
> !


It was a guide for treating diseases that I read. I treated my old boy that way and it worked so I swallowed it whole since. The number of the temp is not exact, I don't remember now. I do apologize if it turns out to be inaccurate. I'm happy to learn more as I go


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## Tealight03 (Nov 15, 2014)

I know it's hard, but just because he's biting doesn't mean he has fin rot. Stress coat will help as will Indian Almond Leaves or a little aquarium salt. Also, you can use RO water as long as you add in the needed minerals. Seachem makes Replenish for that use. There's nothing really wrong with tap water either.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay, Thanks everyone! Since I put him in a darkened tank and used the stress coat I haven't seen any progression. So I think it is safe to bring him back to his regular spot on the counter, add his rocks (sterilized first) and new silk plants that I got him for Christmas. I did add a clearer picture. I will add a picture when he is recovered!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Midnight must have been tail biting. He is starting to regrow his fins. I have gotten a ten gallon tank for him and I am considering what tank mates to get him if any. He is doing really well considering that he went on a 10 day trip to Grandma's house with us over the holidays. I couldn't leave him with his being sick and I knew my husband would not change his water enough. That is why I decided to get the 10 gallon tank. I am thinking of dividing the tank and getting another Betta because you really do fall in love with these fish!

I want to thank those of you who gave me the help I needed to figure out what was going on. I see that there is now a fin rot vs. tail biting and I think it will really help those who have a problem with this.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

I'd be wary of tankmates until he's fully healed up. And even then it all depends on personality. If he's aggressive when he's alone he's probably not going to do well with tankmates. For a ten gallon tank I highly recommend cycling. I like the Tetra Whisper 10i filter and the Hydor Theo 50W, I have these in both my 10 gallon tanks and they work great. You're going to probably want to plant the tank pretty heavily, I have two background silk plants, two midground silk plants and a couple caves in Zuri's tank and two really big background silk plants in Kevin's tank. He would probably appreciate a cave or a hide of some sort as a safe place. 

How I cycled my 5g tank (mainly by accident lol) is I do 50% changes every week. Keep up with the water changes. I'm currently working on cycling my 5.5g and both 10g. I'm not sure how true this is but my roommate noticed and pointed out to me that the cycled tanks have an earthy smell to them, a nice earthy smell. Whereas the uncycled tanks smell fishy. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with being able to tell if a tank is cycled or not but I thought it was pretty cool.

As for dividing the tank, again, it depends on the fish's personalities. None of my current boys or girls are good with dividing at the moment. Not to mention, I can't divide my 10g because Kevin and Zuri (the inhabitants) are both giants and need the full 10g to be healthy.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I bought an Aquarium Kit with the Whisper PF10 power filter and a 50 watt Pre-Set Heater which is heating the water to 82 degrees. Isn't that a little too warm? I am not sure if I should add a diffuser or not because the filter seems to really ripple the top of the tank and I know that Bettas do not really like a lot of current in their water. 

I will not add any tank mates to his tank if you think that he is too aggressive to have anything in the tank. It is funny because I had him for 10 months with no tail biting in a smaller container (I have learned) and then when I put him into the 2 gallon fish tank he started tail biting. I really think he saw his reflection a little too much in the 2 gallon tank. I am really anxious to put him in the 10 gallon and see if the tail biting stops. He hasn't been tail biting while I had him in the hospital tank at all. I will add lots of silk plants and find a cave that he might like. It is a work in progress as I can afford more items for his tank.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

When you can I'd switch to an adjustable heater. 82 degrees is fine, but it's on the high end of the spectrum. It will help heal though. I don't have the link anymore but you can cut a water bottle to fit the filter (I'm guessing its a Hang on back not an internal) to baffle it, it's what I did with the HOB I got with my 5.5 gallon kit. There's a sticky in the aquariums and accessories thread I believe. The internal filters I have in the 10g are the whisper 10i by tetra. One is adjustable one isn't. Both work fine in the 10g without baffles as the 10g provides enough space to dispurse water movement.

Edit: Here's a link to the filter baffle if it is HOB filter: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=30139


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks. I found the post on how to make a baffle out of a water bottle and I made one, just to be sure Midnight will like it. I have his hospital tank right in front of the new 10 gallon tank so he will acclimate to it quickly.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

It's people, not Betta, who don't like current in a Betta's habitat. As long as a Betta isn't being buffeted around current is a good thing. Think of it as the aquarium's circulatory system....necessary for overall health.

In addition, swimming against current gives Betta exercise. Mine play in their bubble curtains and the mild current produced by the internal filters with spray bars I use.

There's no real proven reason for fin biting. But more often than not their tank is too bright and there isn't enough cover/plants. Betta are shade-loving, heavy cover-loving fish; sparsely planted, bright tanks seem to stress them.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks Russell. I had read that Betta do not like currents but I honestly don't think that the normal current from the filter would buffet him around too much. I am going to add a lot of plants and places to hide for him because I do believe that his tank is too bright.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Hi ya'll! I am back with problems again! I moved Midnight from the hospital tank into his bigger tank because he was doing so much better and I saw some regrowth going on. His bigger tank was equipped with gravel, heater, silk plants etc. 

When I got up this morning, his dorsal fin was basically gone!! I think that I can not have him in the curved tank because he sees his reflection too much which makes him aggressive. His bite areas now have a blackish color to them so I think he contacted fin rot from the heater that I used in my fry's tank that I raised for over 10 months. Then she died very quickly from a fin rot that attacked her when I raised the temperature of the water from 76 degrees to 80 degrees slowly and it seemed like the rot just grew so much faster in the warmer water that she was gone the next day. I think that I didn't sterilize it correctly because he was fine and then suddenly there were black areas on Midnight's already weakened by bites tail areas. 

I have moved him back into the hospital tank, put in Jungles Fungus Clear, Stress Coat and moved him to a darkened room. His water temperature is 76 degrees, His GH is 30, His KH is 80, his pH is 7.5, his NO2 is 0, his NO3 is 0, and his ammonia is 0. I have been using Stress Coat the whole time.

I am so tired of his biting himself and causing problems but I do believe it is the curved tank and his reflections so I will never put him back in that tank, he never bit himself when he was in the hospital tank. I am going to use that curved tank for my daughters goldfish. I guess the bright side is that I can cycle the 10 gallon tank with the goldfish but I can't put them in until Saturday. I will take out the goldfish when I introduce Midnight to his 10 gallon cycled tank and put the small goldfish in the 2 gallon tank.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Can you post a new photo?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I hope that these show clearly what is going on. Thanks!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I have been keeping his water really clean and watching him closely but this looks like fin rot to me.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh boy, that's nasty :-/

Are you able to get KanaPlex and Furan-2? I would recommend using both of them to hopefully knock out whichever bacteria this is. Yes, keep heat down around 74-76 ideally. Nothing above 78, bacteria thrive in hotter water and lots of oxygen, so no filter or bubbler either; this is easy since Betta's are air breathers so don't worry about him if he happens to go to the top more often to get some air, that's normal. 

You can also combine this with Methylene Blue and Aquarium Salt baths nightly while you wait on the KanaPlex (only ordered online) and Furan-2. MB should be 9 drops per gallon and AQ should be 1 tsp per gallon, dissolved and mixed up before the fish goes into the bath. Fish should soak in this for 30 minutes and then be removed with a net so as not to pull any bathwater from the tank. Bathwater should be dumped down the drain and fish returned to regular tank for the night. It can sometimes be a little stressful, especially if the temperature drops some but I've never had a fish die from a bath, just a little stress which is why I generally do them at night so the fish can rest in darkness under the towel/blanket for a couple of hours. Do not reuse bathwater, it's like reusing an old bandaid--yuck!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I will make a run to the Pet Store in Newport today and I believe that they sell KanaPlex. Meanwhile, I will do start the Salt Baths and M. Blue tonight. Do I eliminate the Stress Coat while we are treating him?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay, I can't get to the Mini Pet Mart today. I have Jungle's Fungus Clear and that has Methylene Blue as well as an antibiotic and antibacterial medicine. I will use it and do AQ salt baths and keep him in the dark room for today. Do you think that this will help him? I live in a small town where there are no fish Pet Shops.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry, ended up leaving work and wasn't able to reply again until now!

The RO water you use, is it replenished with minerals and vitamins when you get it? Or do you add it in?

StressCoat doesn't do anything for the fish, it's just a water conditioner. Aloe has not been proven to actually do anything for fish, it's just a comfort for us fish keepers honestly. I wouldn't use it if you don't have to.

Fungus Clear doesn't really do anything either, I would just hold off until you can get actual MB and the other two antibiotics. The reason I suggest them is because they do very specific things, not all antibiotics are the same.

Are you able to buy things online?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks for answering. I just got back from the Walk in Clinic with my 4 year old who has been having some weird fevers that come and go and I just needed to take care of it. Turns out she has a Urinary Tract Infection so she is on Antibiotics.

Mini Pet Mart does not have the medicine you talked about. They do have Erythromycin which treats Fin and Tail Rot. I am afraid to wait for the KanaPlex and Furan-2 (besides Furan-2 has the same ingredients as Fungus Clear) because it has gotten worse since the pictures and it is very close to getting on his body. I read in the sticky on diseases to use Fungus Clear (it has the Furan-2 ingredients and methylene blue in it according to another website) and if it is not doing the trick to add Tetracycline to it. I am doing the salt bath tonight. Adding the Erythromycin and keeping him quiet and in the dark. Hopefully, he will get better right away. .

I am also hesitant to use KanaPlex because its main ingredient Kanacyn which affects the bacterial cell membrane which is responsible for bringing nutrients into the cell and taking waste out of the cell. The antibiotics disrupt this process. It is toxic when overdosed. (according to AquriaCentral.com.) I have been reading up on this a lot as you can tell. I am a novice and it seems like many of the people here have their preferred treatments. I appreciate the help though a lot!!! 

I need to use what I can get my hands on which is the AQ, Fungus Clear and Erythomycin. Do you believe that the sticky on Betta Disease and Treatment is right by Dark Moon? I hope so because I have to treat him right away...but I need to choose between Erythomycin and Fungus Clear because I do not know if they are compatible. Does anyone know if they are?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I just read not to use Erythomycin with any other antibiotic. It is also the last medicine to use on fin rot. When the other medications don't work then you use it as that means that the bacteria has probably mutated. Ugh!!! Well that means I only have the Fungus Clear and the AQ. It doesn't look like it progressed any today so I guess I better give FC and salt baths a chance to work.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's better to wait for KanaPlex and combine that with your Fungus clear. No, it's not easy to overdose it. All antibiotics essentially disrupt the fish in some way, it happens to us humans too! You sometimes have to get worse before you get better. Taking antibiotics does not feel good but you need to get rid of that infection and it's the only way to do it. Water changes aren't going to help get rid of an infection. It's like putting a bandaid on a piece of rotted arm--I sincerely apologize for the image, but that's the equivalent in this matter, it won't help anything unless you treat the area with antibiotics.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Hi Lillnaugrim! I have ordered the KanaPlex on Amazon 2 day delivery and will begin treating him with it as soon as it arrives. The Jungle Clear and salt baths have stopped the progression of the fin rot, but it hasn't cured it. It won't hurt to continue what I am doing until the KanaPlex arrives will it since it is keeping my poor guy from dying? I still have him in a darkened room with the lower temperature also.

I am really discouraged from ever going to the Mini Pet Mart ever again! When I was buying the Erythromycin and letting my daughter look at the other fish the sales girl comes up and asks me why I was spending the $20 on it when the fish was going to die anyways. "All Bettas that get fin rot die", she said. I told her that on Betta.com there are lots of pictures of Bettas that survived and grew back their fins. She proceeded to tell me that she used to breed Bettas and that she never had one recuperate before. This was said in front of my 4 year old who loves Midnight!!! I was soooo mad and discouraged about Midnight's condition but I told her I have to try don't I? since I love this fish! She said its just a fish and it will probably die! There was more to this conversation that I will add to the overheard in pet store section but I do have a chance to cure him don't I??? She sure upset my daughter to the point when we went to the check out area and she said" I want to look at the fishies so I started to take her back to the goldfish and she yells not those fishies the ones over there. She pointed to the shelf of Bettas so I took her there. She then picked out a VT dark blue Betta that looked like Midnight used to look and said, "I am going to miss Midnight when he dies". This broke my heart! I told her that Midnight was not dead and that he might get better with medicine so she asked if he dies can we get this one....!!!

Now I need reassurance that he can survive this fin rot! He is quite a fighter and I believe he can make it, at least I am trying to keep him from dying! He is a living breathing member of this family and both my daughters and myself love him a lot!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, continue what you're doing until the KanaPlex comes in.

Aw, I'm real sorry the employee was so rude! I can never guarantee that a fish will live or not unfortunately. Some fish completely surprise me and turn right around and others just turn up and die! The best I can do is provide you with the means of healing him, it's up to him on what happens next. However, yes, it's certainly not true that all Betta's die from fin rot! Heck, it's not even a normal occurrence usually, it's likely fin biting that she see's and they die from lack of care and bad conditions.

I'm glad at least your daughter isn't freaking out about it, that's always a plus. Doesn't make it any easier I know, but it's also hard explaining how things sometimes just die. Actually, that's hard to do for anyone to be honest. But for now, just take it one day at a time and we'll see what we can do for him.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks Lilnaugrim! I know that with sick animals there is no guarantee that they will recuperate and it depends on their will to survive. I think that Midnight has a fighting chance at this which is why I am pouring all the money into him and trying so hard to fight this off. 

I am concerned about whether he will continue to tail bite after this episode. I have bought a 10 gallon tank especially for him with lots of interesting things for him to explore when he gets better and I am hoping that he will stop tail biting in the new tank. I do believe that the 2 gallon showed too much of his reflection by the shape of it and that is why he bit his tail. Here's to hoping that he will fully recover and get to live in that 10 gallon tank!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

There are a couple things that lead to tail biting, it always has to do with stress though. Usually the main thing is the tank being too open; it causes stress because they don't have anywhere to hide. Betta's prefer silk plants over hides because they naturally are top-dwellers; you don't normally find hides that float. So tall silk plants is what you want to aim for. The other thing is that Betta's don't like bright lights, they can tolerate some area's but it's also good to have plenty of shaded area's as well to help keep them feeling comfortable.

By doing both those things, you greatly reduce glare from the light usually which helps to stop biting if it's due to reflection. You can also use matte construction paper to help reduce the reflection as well.

If he does happen to pass, at least you'll have a nice cache of meds to use in the future--god forbid but at least you'll have them on hand. It's all a learning experience too, that's how I look at it, it's not always easy to see it but there is always something that you learned from this experience


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

It has definitely been a learning experience for me! I used to have an aquarium like a very long time ago. So buying Midnight and Ms Peacock a fry for my 15 year old daughter started me back on the trail of loving fish and doing the aquarium thing again! A lot has changed! Even if Midnight doesn't make it, I know that we will get another Beta for this tank. I have put some long silk plants in the tank that drape over and form natural tunnels all aquarium grade of course!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

It is hard to believe that Midnight has only been sick 2 days; it feels like weeks. The good news is that the fin rot has not progressed since I started the Jungle Fungus Clear!!! It has arrested within 1/2" of his body! With each 12 hours he makes it, I have more hope that he will pull through! I just can't wait to give him the KanaPlex so we can kill off the fin rot for good. You can tell he likes it when I bring him out of the darkened room, into the kitchen where he used to be kept, for his salt baths. He doesn't like the switching of the tank to the salt bath container and back to his Hospital tank much...but I have been given him freeze dried Blood Worms as a treat right after his bath so he doesn't get too mad at me. I must say that he is not as excited to see me since I started putting him the dark room. He is still swimming around like a happy little guy despite the fin rot problem most of the time.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, most fish don't like baths lol. But that's good that you treat him, he'll give you less of a fuss eventually for baths ^_^


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Day 3 of Midnight's illness and the fin rot has stabilized without the KanaPlex but I am still going to give it to him when it gets here. Unfortunately, it won't be until Monday now.

Lilnaugrim, I just want you to know that something amazing is happening! His tail has clear regrowth happening!  I don't see anything growing on the dorsal fin but nothing bad is happening either. He is definitely regrowing the tail area where he bit himself. I called my daughter over to see if what I was seeing is true and she saw it too! How can he be regrowing his tail while bacteria are eating his Dorsal fin??? Although that has been stabilized for 2 days so maybe, somehow, the bacteria are dead??? The dark room and the lowered water temperature must be working! I still want to treat him with the KanaPlex gets here. I just wanted to share that good news!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

GOOD! Hopefully he continues to regrow!!

Bacteria usually spot infect, which means they'll only infect one certain part of the fish or the whole thing sometimes depending on the type of bacteria. So it's likely that his tail isn't infected but the dorsal clearly is. Unlike virus's which infect the whole body at one time but only shows itself in spots on the fish which make it seem like a bacteria but it's not lol. It's confusing sometimes I know. But that's really great!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thank you Lilnaugrim, you are so knowledgeable and helpful to so many of us on this thread! I don't know how you can tell when Triple Sulfa or KanaPlex and Furan-2 are needed but you seem to be almost a veterinarian of Betta! I have been reading a lot of threads on sick fish where you seem to always know what to do. I know many of us appreciate you so much! THANKS!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's come from being here a couple years, doing so much research and looking for certain things! Asking questions to the older, more knowledgeable people at the time (though...they kind of all disappeared unfortunately so it often feels like it's just me now...) and just reading as much as I can! I'm kind of a sponge when it comes to fishy stuff haha

How is he doing today?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks for asking Lilnaugrim! I was so upset because the KanaPlex didn't come, they shipped Furan-2 instead of KanaPlex! So I reordered KanaPlex from a different supplier and it won't be her till Friday! UGH!!! This is Day 5. I have continued the Fungus Clear and salt baths with 100% water changes daily. He is getting stronger and his color is returning to the midnight blue it was. He was feeling so good yesterday that he jumped when I was switching him back into the hospital tank and he almost got out. He is still fin biting so I know he is bored in the hospital tank. There are no black marks from fin rot and his top fin has not changed so the fin rot has stopped.His fins are still showing regrowth too. I have tried changing up his food (flakes, pellets, FD brine shrimp) and making him flare at a mirror once or twice a day so that he will go looking for that other fish and stop biting himself. I made a cave out of a towel so that he can swim into the cave if he feels exposed. I am still keeping him in a darker room but I am wondering if I should at least bring him out for a while and put him next to the goldfish so he has something to keep him from being too bored. He gets a lot more interaction with the family there too! My fear is that the bacteria will begin to grow again if they too much light. I know that I can't continue the salt baths beyond 7 days right? So I really wish I had a quicker method to get the antibiotic KanaPlex.

I accidentally poisoned my dog with Tea Tree Oil yesterday and had to rush to the vets. Thank God he is doing much better today and seems to almost be back to normal. I found out NEVER USE TEA TREE OIL or Melalucca Oil near your dog. I shuts down their Central Nervous System! I feel so terrible about that and I am so thankful that he is so much better today!

I feel like I am running a little hospital with my 4yr old having a UTI, my fish with fin rot and my dog with Tree Tea Oil poisoning! I can't wait until all three are back to normal and Midnight is in his 10 gallon tank!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh geeze! I hope everyone ends up okay! Thank god your dog is fine! I would be devestated!!

And you don't have to keep him in the dark all day, just at night throw the towel over so he can sleep peacefully and without interuptions 

You can continue salt baths, those aren't as taxing. Just simply keeping the fish in AQ salt 24/7 for two weeks at 1 tsp per gallon or higher, that's what you can't. However anything lower they can be in indefinitely and regular baths at 1 tsp/gal can be done for a longer time due to the exposure time being a small window.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Right after I posted to you, I found out the 2 goldfish I bought my daughter have Ich in the 10 gallon that I was going to use for Midnight when he is ready to get out of the hospital tank. I am treating them with AQ and higher temperatures. They have little white dots all over them like they were dusted with salt. Poor Dottie and Nemo! I am going to have to strip out that tank when they are better and scrub out the tank and sterilize everything. I am going to rinse the silk plants in high salt concentrate and rinse with hottest water I can without melting them too much. My new forray into fish seems to be frought with illnesses but it will all be worth it when they are all well! I am really hoping for that day!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I recommend getting QuickCure--it has Malachite Green in it and will knock out the Ich in a couple days. Even with a full rinse like that, it's still infecting the fish and will continue to do so unless you treat it. Keep heat up.


Do you know that Goldfish need 20 gallons each if they are fancies? Regulars need 30 plus 10 ever fish after (2 fish need 40 gallons) or more ideally. They are huge waste producers so you're looking at daily water changes for that 10 gallon even if they are small now. Regulars get over a foot long and most fancies still get up to 7-8 inches with good growth.

Don't be disheartened! It's a huge learning curve when you first start! I do promise things get a little easier down the road once you've learned all the basics (housing, compatibility, diseases, etc.)!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks, I will get Quick Cure. I was reading on a goldfish site that using AQ & raising the temperature of their tank would knock out those little critters that cause Ich in about a week but I would rather do it quicker and not make my two lil guys wait that long. Right now they are about 1 1/2" long and very active and so cute! They are standard feeder goldfish and I will get them a bigger aquarium as they grow. I was aware that we would need to get a much bigger home and have been looking into aquariums for sale on Craigs List.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

KanaPlex to the rescue!!! I finally received the KanaPlex today and put a dose in his tank right away! His tail was suddenly looking really bad and I was afraid that the fin rot had transferred to his tail which I can't understand with 100% water changes, salt baths, etc....but he did bite his tail a few times. So it looks like a 6 day treatment is what I need to do. Thanks!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay...Lilnaugrim, you are going to think I am crazy but...when I went to get the Iche medicine, I noticed a new shipment of Bettas and well, I fell in love with Malachite. He was named the minute I saw him. I have attached pictures. I gave him a salt bath right out of the container and for now he is in 76 degreee water with Stress Coat and a bubble stone since the stupid under gravel filter seems to not want to stay in its place. He is very young and I just couldn't walk away and leave him in his poop which was quite thick for a tiny guy like him. 

Midnight is getting stronger every day and is fighting now when he gets transferred from the HT to the salt bath and back. He seems even stronger with the KanaPlex treatment today. His coloring has gotten to be as beautiful as it was when I first got him. We just need for his tail to fill in again and to regrow that Dorsal fin. and quit chewing on himself!!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh lol, as long as you can keep up on maintenance, I don't mind ^_^ I can't say anything since I have 8 tanks myself plus Leopard Geckos. But I also don't have children yet lol. Love his name too ^_^

Glad Midnight is getting better with treatment! Keep me updated on how he does and remember to take pictures as often as you can! It helps us to better judge how his progress is progressing and if anything else has come up ^_^


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Midnight is now finished with his KanaPlex treatment! Yeah! He looks rough but all the black on his fins is gone! His color is really good so now it is time to try and grow his fins back which they already are! I purchased a 1 gallon hospital tank with an under-gravel filter with substrate and a silk plant to help him keep from biting his fins and have other things to occupy his time while he heals. I am still adding Stress Coat to his water and giving nightly salt baths, is this the correct thing to do? Or should I stop the salt baths? I plan on doing 50% water changes every other day unless I see he needs them more often, and 100% water changes once a week.

He is a little stressed at the new tank and didn't like the silk plant very much so I cut it down in size as it was taking over too much of the tank. I had his small HT next to the new tank so he could get used to seeing it but he still went crazy when I put him in it. He has settled into one corner that I used the "towel cave" on that was part of the smaller tank ritual. He has settled down now and is timidly exploring the new tank! Whew!!! I thought that I overwhelmed him!

Malachi is doing great! He loves his tank and seems to be really happy, building bubble nests.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you get up some more pictures of him? With and without flash would be great! That way I can see how the infection is doing--or rather, how it's NOT doing haha!

Careful with the towel, has it been in the wash? If so, then don't use it because it could have soap residue on it >.< your fish should be okay, but just try not to use anything that has had soap of any kind on it before; it can be toxic to fishes. Instead, you can use Terracotta pots (make sure hole on bottom is corked or sealed with something like silicone/hot glue (as long as it's 100% glue, it's safe, but will deteriorate over time so it's not good for structural things but just fine for sealing holes!) to seal the hole so he can't get stuck! Betta's are curious fishes which doesn't always bode well for them!) or brand new mugs for caves or PVC piping as well, just has to be new is all.

Glad Malachi is doing well!! That's always real nice to hear ^_^


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Hi Lilinaugrim!

Thank you for sticking with us through Midnight's whole ordeal! You do not know how much I appreciate you!

I tried a cup in his tank and he didn't like it so the towel is on part of his tank on the outside so that he can swim into the darker part whenever he wants to take a break. He is loving being back on his spot on the counter and is being very active again. He wouldn't hold still for the pictures and I only have a camera phone so I used a magnifying glass to get clearer pictures. I couldn't get any from on top of him to come out yet but he is not pine coning or anything anyway. He can see Malachi when he chooses to but can swim away as I have plants between them on the outside of the tank so either of them can swim away if they wish. I am trying this to see if he will not bite his tail! If he keeps biting his tail I will move Malachi to another spot where they can't see each other at all. It will be hard to tell his tail is so bad...

Attached are the latest. He looks really beat up doesn't he? But he is alive and seeming to get stronger. The weird thing is that the pics aren't really showing the clear areas where he is growing fins...

My goldfish have come through the ich incident but for some unknown reason Nemo suddenly became ill after I returned the filter to the tank, did a 20% water change as the medicine said and he died very quickly. I checked the water and everything was perfect. I added oxygen and that didn't help. I gave him a salt bath and he was revived in the salt bath but when I put him in a quarantine tank, he left us. It acted like Nitrate poisoning but the water test didn't indicate that. So I changed out 50% of the water in that tank and more aeration to keep Dottie from getting it too! Dottie was acting perfectly fine but Nemo was a smaller fish. Instead of salt I should have done the Malachite blue bath, right? I am learning....My daughter insisted on Nemo 2 so we have it in quarantine to make sure before adding Nemo 2 to the big tank. 

I think that Midnight has revived but I do appreciate you looking him over to help me make sure we tackled that fin rot or anything else that was happening.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I can see the area's! Much much better! Obviously, he still has a long way to go but he does look much better! I can see he's still a little stressed out--though, I don't blame him lol, try to keep him in the dark or in a dim area as much as possible for now so that he can relax. Has he any tall plants that reach the surface? Can you let one of the fake ones float for him? It would be more useful 

As for the goldies, feeder goldfish and minnows don't get a good start to life; they're bred to be eaten and so the breeders don't care about health of the fish which ends up bad for those who keep them as pets eventually. They generally don't last the 10-20 years that goldfish are supposed to live to (which can be both a blessing and sad of course). But through that, they tend to be sick more often and die easier than regulars so it may not have been your fault that he did die quickly--it sounds like he just wasn't very healthy to begin with was all. Even if the fish seems to be healthy, they could have something brewing inside of them that we can't see, or a genetic defect or something.

However, yes, I would have done a Methylene Blue bath with Aquarium Salt (MB at 9 drops per gallon and AQ at 1 tsp/gal mixed).

In their regular tank, you can using Epsom Salt at 1/4 of a teaspoon per 10 gallons roughly. This dose makes water heavier which is necessary for healthy goldfish. I just learned about this myself from a friend who breeds them and my best friend who has been having troubles with her fancies in her 75 gallon. Goldfish are rather hard to keep in tanks when it comes down to it unfortunately. But by making the water heavier, it's all around easier for the goldfish to live in it and their organs to function properly. The hard part will just be keeping this dosage level for the most part. If it goes slightly over or slightly under 1/4 teaspoon, that's okay as well, just try to keep track of it when you do water changes. So if you do a 50% water change, then you've also taken out 1/8 of a teaspoon of the Epsom Salt and you'll want to replace that when you add in the new water--mixed the same way that you do Aquarium Salt.

Can't remember if you have Epsom or not, but you get it from a pharmacy instead of a fish store. It's used as a laxative and a swelling reducing agent for many things human and animals. In higher dosages such as 1 tsp per gallon, it's used as a laxative; drawing out liquid from the fish which can help in some early cases of Dropsy (organ failure), or at least to make the fish a little more comfortable before it passes.

Anywho, that's something you can do and hopefully it will help the goldies keep healthier after that Ich is all done and gone with. Remember--continue treatment 2 weeks after you see the last dot disappear; just because it's not directly infecting the fish doesn't mean that it's not still there! That's the tricky thing about parasites unfortunately.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I always keep Epsom Salts around for my own aches and pains so I will start adding it to the goldfish tank!

I had some tall plants in Midnight's tank and he freaked out so I took them out. I figured that he would like them since the cave towel thing I have been doing but it was a little thick at the top I think. I have stood the one up in his tank that was laying down and he seems to be doing fine with it. He was really stressed with the light that I used to take the pictures. He didn't like it at all. He seems to like it a little darker right now which is why I have the towel retreat at one end of his tank. He can swim into the dark corner whenever he chooses. He keeps checking out the the plant then swimming back to his dark corner then swimming around the plant again but he is not freaking out.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Happy Birthday to Midnight!
He is one year old today! Or we have owned him a year anyway!

So I was gone about 4 days in which Midnight did not have his nightly salt baths, my daughter said he had just one in those 4 days. I noticed that the clear spots that I thought was regrowth of his dorsal, anal, and tail now has a blackened area. Do the royal blue fish tails sometimes go black before they turn blue....I mean is the process of regrowth clear, then blackish, then blue? If not does he have fin rot in more places on his body? 

He was in dire straits of needing a water change when I got back which I did right away. He was so very excited to see me that he has followed my every move and didn't even seem to mind the camera episode today. Anyways Lilnaugrim, what do you think? Pictures are attached. Thank you for your response.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

oops last picture is not latest...sorry!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yay, the Columnaris is gone but there is still some fin rot there! You can stop with the Furan-2 and do another round of KanaPlex alone for the fin rot. The black is definitely rot, you should see clear spots before they turn blue again and continue to grow out. He's a lucky fish! Not all fishes come back from an attach like that!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks! I didn't realize I was fighting Columnaris...I thought it was just fin rot. Whew!!! He is a very lucky guy that we have had you to direct his cure and me to do what you said to do. I have added KanaPlex back into his tank. All the regrowth that he had going on turned black while I was gone. Probably because of poor water quality because they didn't change his water like I do. Luckily, I am done with the traveling for a long time so that I am back in charge of his care. This fin rot just started so it should go away pretty quickly, I hope. I am still doing the nightly salt baths too. He is so much stronger and better that he has started to dance for us again when we are near his tank. I noticed with him that the changes need to be incremental or he doesn't like them, so I started with one silk plant that was tall and now he has 2 tall. He seems to like them a lot and does not go into the darkened "cave" as much. He has not been tail biting since those plants were added so hopefully he was stressed from feeling vulnerable.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Awesome! I'm glad he isn't fin biting any more ^_^


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Midnight has lost about half his anal fin to fin rot now. There are still blackish areas on his anal fin. He is on day 4 of 2nd round of KanaPlex. Poor guy looks like he lost a fight against another fish which of course he didn't. I think he is not tail biting anymore but it is hard to tell. He now has Nemo 2 next to him and watches him with interest, but doesn't flare at him at all. He can still swim away from him when he wants to. I am worried that the KanaPlex hasn't taken out the fin rot on day 4. Shouldn't his fins have lost the black ends by now? I am still giving him nightly AQMB baths.


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## Hopefish (Feb 9, 2016)

I'm wondering if Midnight isn't tearing his fins on something in his environment -- his filter or something. Hope you get the poor little guy sorted out soon!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Midnight is in a small hospital tank with a filter and only has one plant which has been nylon tested. He is a tail biter and we have been fighting a long hard battle to get him back from fin rot.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Damn, yeah, that rot should have been taken care of by now. Well, you know what I'm going to ask for lol, more pictures! Need to see the progression of his biting as well.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Hi Lilnaugrim! These are the latest on Midnight. This is day 5 of KanaPlex. He has lost his anal fin, just about and it looked like it slowed down but the edges are still black. I know that we need to finish this round of KanaPlex but do you think we should use the Erythoromycin to try and get rid of it? Or a different antibiotic. My LFS has different kinds but I have EM on hand.

I have another problem that I would like you to look at while I have your attention...Malachi has torn his tail, I think. I just want you to confirm that it is not fin rot. If it is fin rot which treatment do you think I should try? I think Malachi tore his tail on a petrified wood log that I had in his tank. It was pretty smooth on top and I thought I buried any bad parts but Malachi explored his tank pretty thoroughly and may have found a bad spot that I thought was okay. I have removed it from his tank. I am not sure that was what happened so I need those keen eyes of yours to look over the damage. I gave him AQ/MB bath of course and he is now very stressed out. He is my little shy guy and he stresses very easily. He is laying on the bottom of his tank. His tank numbers were nitrite 0, nitrates 0, ph 6.5, KH 40, GH 30, Ammonia was .5ppm but I did a 50% water change to bring down the Ammonia. I think my 10 gallon tank is recycling. Ammonia seems to bounce up to .50 ppm every afternoon for some reason. My nitrates sometimes sneak up to 20 ppm so I do a water change also. I am using Aqueon Water Conditioner which is suppose to bind the Ammonia also. I know that Prime is a better product but I got the Aqueon for my Koi's pond so I have that on hand and Stress Coat (everyone seems to think that you shouldn't use Stress Coat either). Please let me know what you think about his tail too! I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw his tail!!! ! (PS Malachi's pictures are in the cup because there is no way I can get them in his tank and I had him out for the bath anyways...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Stress Coat isn't bad, it's just that aloe doesn't do anything for the fins is all, it's just fine as a water conditioner 

Malachi has bitten his fins, that's not tearing. Likely he's stressed out from the change of senery or he can see his reflection somewhere and it stresses him. Something there stressed him out to cause him to bite. The most common causes are: too bright of light, not enough top cover plants (which can help reduce light if you have enough), sight of another Betta or reflection. 

As for Midnight, it is very possible the columnaris is still there and you have a very stubborn strain. What you see is not fin rot, you see the greyed ends that kind of hang off the anal fin there? It's hard to see but with fin rot, it's just like a burnt end; there is nothing hanging off usually. Advanced or Acute Columnaris is where you get those greyed edges that kind of eat away at the fin. Fin Rot also does not progress this quickly, Acute Columnaris does.

Acute Columnaris is...unfortunately, extremely hard and/or almost impossible to treat. I would suggest going back to using both KanaPlex and Furan-2 to try to beat it. I had a sorority fail because of this and they all died regardless of treatment :-/ I'm sorry, I can't be too optimistic about this since I've never seen any fish come back from it, but it can't hurt to try. Likely what will happen is the bacteria will eat away at the anal fin until it reaches the body and then will eat away at the body as well. Acute Columnaris also tends to be resistant to most antibiotics as well which is another reason it's tough as all hell :-/ I'm really sorry.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay, thanks Lilnaugrim! I will put Furan-2 back into Midnight's tank. He has lived a lot longer than most fish with Columnaris at this point in his life. I will continue to treat him and make him happy as long as I have him. He is quite the little fighter and seems happy and strong right now. Will the antibiotics cause his organs to fail eventually? Or will it just keep him going for a while?

I know that Malachi stresses out easy and he was quite happy in the new tank at first so I don't know why he is so stressed out now. He is not hiding in his favorite plant anymore and I don't know why. He usually swims in and out of it and he has a silk plant that hangs over half the tank with his favorite in the middle but it hangs over a little instead of standing straight up like it used to. I will figure this out.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It really depends on the fish, antibiotics are harsh on the system so it all depends on what kind of system he has which of course, we can never truly know unless we know all the lineage and diseases and stuff like we do in humans. It's just the best route at the moment for a worse-case scenario type of thing :-/


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Regarding Midnight, the Columnaris has not ever reached his body. So far we have arrested each attack before it reached his body. I feel so bad because we had it beat until I was gone and there was dirty water since my daughter didn't do the water changes and AQMB baths he needed. Everyone seems to be so concerned about heaters but my tanks are 76 - 80 degrees always. Is there a way to lower the temperature? I think that I will put him back in the darkened room that seems to be a little cooler and see if we can stop this again. Thank you for all your help throughout this ordeal!

I just hope that I can get Malachi unstressed and back swimming happily...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What's Malachi's tank look like again? How many plants does he have?

And technically, the Columnaris has infected his whole body at this point, it's just a matter of the fin eating away to the body that becomes a real big issue.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

This is what Malachi's tank looks like except I have removed the petrified wood log. He loved to hide by the log in the little cave that I made with the sandstone. I guess I need to go for a walk on the beach and find some more smooth rocks to sterilize and put in there to replace the log.

I can put Malachi back in his 2 gallon tank that he was happy in if you think that he would feel better right away.

I am really sad about Midnight but I do not want to give up on him as long as he can fight I will too. We thought we had it beat before. I know it is not good when it bounces back though. It usually means the bacteria is adapting. That is why I was thinking a different antibiotic might help but if this is what is known to cure or fight columnaris then that is what we have to use. Is it safe to increase doses of either the KanaPlex or the Furan 2 to see if that helps?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry I didn't clarify. Previously I had thought it was columnaris and fin rot, two separate things. The obviously columnaris has gone but now, I realize that it's not fin rot but acute columnaris. So no, we got rid of the obvious fuzz, but not the entire infection. Don't worry, treatment would have been the same either way though.

Do you notice Malachi flaring a lot?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I hate to say this but Malachi has been laying on the bottom of his tank all morning and not swimming. When I went to turn on the blue lights (less harsh) on his tank, I see that his tail is falling apart. I think that I transferred the Columanaris to Malachi!!! I am starting treatment right away! I am reading through posts on this horrible disease and one thing I have learned is that high mineral content in water can contribute to this disease and that salt is a key to killing it, along with KanaPlex and Furan 2 or Marcyn and Marcyn-Two. I have also read that Jungle Fungus Clear can arrest it! It makes me want to go back to the RO water for babies that I was using before. It had minerals added back.

Can I double the AQ salt and salt baths? If salt is one of the keys, how much AQ can I safely bathe the fish in for 30 minutes 3 times a day?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I just put Malachi in a HT and his tail is literally falling off him. I started him on Jungle Fungus Clear and Kanaplex that I mixed for Midnight. I need to know the maximum amount of AQ I can use that won't burn them or hurt them.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Acute columnaris is very contagious >.< crap, I'm really sorry.

You can add up to 3 tsp of aq salt but the mb at 9 drops per gallon is already double dose, you don't want to do more than that. But salt isn't overly necessary, just a nice additive. MB bath can be done twice a day if needed.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay I will do 2 MB/AQ baths a day and up the salt to 3 teaspoons of AQ per bath. I will do another AQ Bath in the middle of the day to see if we can kick this stuff. I have the AQ at 1 teaspoon right now. I did read that Columnaris can not live in salt water so if I go at this aggressively today and tomorrow, maybe the KanaPlex and Jungle Fungus Clear can do a better job of killing the bacteria.

I read that the fish can "pass out" from 3 teaspoons of salt in their water and that you need another bath to put them in out of the 3 teaspoon one so that they can acclimate to their tanks again...have you found this to be true?

This is a story of an person that cured the columnaris from her Betta after infecting her 2nd Betta:
I purchase betta number 2. Tank is cycled, etc. Put in betta #2 and he is good for two days. I find him hiding, I take him out and look at him under the light. Columnaris AGAIN! I immediately test the water (hardness outrageous) others alright or same except the nitrate was around 5ppm

Columnaris can thrive in water with a lot of minerals so I decided to opt out of the tap water. I ran to the store got spring water, drinking water and purified water (12 gals). Took tank water and made a high concentrated bath of antibiotics in a cup, placed betta while I made a mix of water and added some baking soda to bring ph up to a 7.0. Added Maroxy, Marcyn-Two and Marcyn in proper doses. Put Betta back in tank after an hour and observed. Betta was really sick, and columnaris was growing rapidly, so I opted for some dreaded salt dips (3xs) an hour apart. After each salt dip, betta started to behave and move around more. Every day I added the appropriate dosage of Maroxy, Marcyn-Two and Marcyn. (since filtration affects the level of antibiotics/ can filter them out I also added extra sprinkles about 1/12 of a dose of Marcyn and Marcyn-Two per day. I also directly applied salt water with a q-tip to the worse part of his anal fin. Betta is looking GREAT, vibrant, colorful, active. Now I'm just waiting for the tissue to heal from where the columnaris ate it's way through!

She caught it early and maybe I have a chance with Malachi since I have all the medicines on hand but I know how deadly this is. Darn ! I have to try my best to help them both. I am using the Jungle Fungus Clear and KanaPlex as the antibiotics. It has stopped the bacteria from going onto Midnight's body which is good and will help him to live longer.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Well, if Malachi makes it through the night it will be a miracle. He got the strain that acts so fast that it is unbelievable. His looks just like what happened to Miss Peacock. I believe his started internally and only showed up on the outside today. He has brown in his gills. He is laying in the bottom of his HT just breathing and struggling. He is fighting though. I am so torn as to what to do next. The salt baths (3 one with MB) had no affect on him. The meds do not seem to be working! I put 100% Organic Roobis tea in his water just to calm him down. How can one fish survive for months with it and another just melt away in a day from it??? (I really do know the answer, it is my grief asking why) This is devastating me! He was happily swimming around his new tank just a day ago, cracking me up at how he explored every area of the tank and getting himself into some strange postitions...

Midnight is still swimming around and acting like a normal, healthy fish and the attacks on his body have stopped again. Thank goodness! Columnaris can be a nasty horrible thing!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

RIP my beautiful Malachi! This was horrible stuff and I am not sure it was Columnaris now. It was like a black plague entered his body and took him away. If you see the black on the tail fin there on the picture up above, that black literally ate him up. I believe he got it a few days ago and I didn't realize that he had something internal. It showed up on his gills and he couldn't fight it. My beautiful little shy guy is gone!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, that's Acute Columnaris. It varies depending on the fishes immune system and how they are feeling. Malachi was already stressed out from other things likely andit just took him over :-/

Also, you'll usually seem more black/grey on fishes after they pass, this is normal and usually nothing to do with the disease. It's just a normal part of necrosis.

In regard to the 3tsp of salt, I've never seen that info or ever had it happen. Do you have a link to where you saw it? I'd be interested in reading if they have any research to back it up 

I have a question though. I'm wondering if this bacteria didn't come from the goldfish you'd bought. You said before you were having trouble with the goldies and one (Nemo?) died, yes? And then all this stuff with Midnight and Malachi happened, yes? It's very possible that the feeders brought in some disease and then it just kind of grew from there. It's kind of moot now but it's something to watch out for in the future is all. It's why it's important to quarantine new fishes and use different equipment (hoses/buckets, etc.) or disinfect the usual ones before switching over to the healthy fishes.

I'm glad Midnight is still doing okay! Has the infection stopped on his anal fin or just still hanging out there?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Midnight had it first. The goldfish and Malachi probably got it from cross contamination, My fault! I was using the turkey baster on all of the tanks. I was rinsing really good but not sterilizing it. Nemo 2 is now swimming funny. When I give him a MB/AQ bath he comes out of it but later he has trouble swimming again. I have KanaPlex and ES in his tank.

It is strange but some of the black on Malachi has disappeared. There is still black hanging out on his anal fin that hasn't gone any further than the last picture you saw. He is so feisty lately that it is amazing!

Here is the link that I found about AQ. http://www.myaquariumclub.com/columnaris-and-what-i-have-learned...-1689.html

There is another site http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

Both state that Columnaris does not live in salt conditions. I was applying this information. There was a site where a lady cured her fish by 3 baths but I doubt that fish really had Columnaris after dealing with it myself.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I am using high levels of non iodized salt and hydrogen peroxide to clean my tank and hopefully kick out the Columnaris so that I can use the tank again. All my equipment is in there. I figured I would let the filter work it through the tank and let it run for at least 48 hours. I may rinse that out really well and use bleach too but I have to be careful of hydrogen peroxide and bleach...I just want to be sure it is gone...

Midnight did not become sick until I started using tap water here. It tests fine coming out of the tap but I am wondering if I should go back to the ro water with minerals added back that is what I used on him for the longest time.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Ooof, this sounds like friggin nasty stuff. Ugh, I hope my sorority doesn't ever get it!

Good luck!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

It is really nasty stuff and very contagious! I hope that you never have to deal with it either Thatfishthough! I wish no one had to deal with it!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry for the late reply though!

Regular Columnaris can be knocked out with high salt dosages but even still, it's a bacteria and a change in salinity doesn't entirely get rid of it. Best chance is to still use antibiotics. However, the Columnaris you have/are experiencing is Acute, it's deadly and quick as you've seen.

It's possible that it came from the tap.

The reason I'd asked about the goldfish, different fish will show diseases differently so they might have been sick but just not showing it (or at least carrying it). Then perhaps the switch over to tap water might have stressed him out just enough for the bacteria to latch on. Bacteria are generally opportunistic diseases and when the fish becomes stressed; that's when they attack, it doesn't matter how little or big the stress was, from there, it only get's worse until treated. It's a moot point now, but at least maybe it gives you an idea of what might have happened is all.

If you feel safer using the RO water with added minerals, it certainly doesn't hurt. It's not entirely necessary but if it makes you feel better, then go ahead


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I figured it was time for more pictures. He has a new white spot next to his gill that has me worried. His anal fin still has a little black but it is going away. His dorsal fin is regrowing and he has fin growth going on right next to the black on his anal fin. Strange stuff this is!

It was really hard to take these pictures as he was being so active and excited about the pictures. You know he really doesn't know how sick he is. He acts like he did before he got columnaris. He happily swims around that 1 gallon tank like there is nothing wrong. Sometimes I think about the fact that he may never get to go into that 10 gallon tank and really swim and I get sad for him. Then I realize that I am giving him the best life I can while I fight this horrible bacteria with him and I know that I have done the best I can. He has lived longer than most fish with the type of columnaris he has. We haven't given up hope yet but I am also being realistic.

I changed from Jungle Clear to actual Furan 2 on Sunday to see if it can make a bigger difference. I have also been feeding him frozen brine shrimp to give him more strength. (I thaw them out first.) He gets the shrimp in his baths and looks for it the minute he is in his bath. Last night I forgot at first and he kept giving that impatient look. At first I didn't figure it out, then I remembered the brine shrimp and he gobbled them up really fast! It made me laugh at him. He has gotten used to the routine but still fights like crazy to be changed out of his tank into the AQMB bath.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Also the columnaris wiped out all the other of my indoor fish. ! I mean Nemo 2 has left us too! So this bacteria has taken out 3 goldfish and Malachi. So far there is no bacteria showing up with the koi. I am glad they are outdoors and the weather has stayed low enough that the bacteria won't grow. I am worried about when summer starts. My koi have been with me or my mom for so long that I don't even remember how old they are.


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

It's also possible the bacteria have built up a resistance to the medications you've been using to treat with. Acute Columnaris is a stubborn foe and usually has to be attacked so aggressively with medication that it can completely over-stress a fish, which is just one part of how a fish can contract Columnaris in the first place. 

Outbreaks tend to occur following environmental stress and clinical signs or symptoms may include yellowish brown or white lesions on the gills, skin, or fins. The bacteria attach themselves to the fish where they release protein and cartilage degrading enzymes. It may be argued that the most important site of attachment is that of the gills. The bacteria attach to the gills where they multiply, and eventually cover and destroy the entire gill filament - if untreated, substantial damage can occur, subsequently leading to the death of the fish 

Has he been having a hard time breathing or any excessive slime? If you can get him to flare try and look closely at the insides of his gills when he does. Where they are red, signs of damage would be white/yellow patches. Columnaris attacks primarily the gills of fish and will leave noticeable damage. And has it been the same fish you're dealing with since December? There are 4 different strains of Columnaris, 2 which kill very, very quickly. If in fact it is Columnaris you are probably dealing with ASJ4, which is one strain that has not shown much significant mortality.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Yes it is the same fish I have dealing with since December. His gills are fine, right now. I got him to flare and they look as they always have. It appeared on his dorsal fin first and has attacked various places on his fin. My other Betta that caught it from Midnight got it in his gills and fins and died very quickly. Each goldfish has differing symptoms but in the end it was breathing problems that took them. So I am watching Midnight very closely to make sure. He is on KanaPlex & Furan 2 and I give him AQ/MB baths daily for 1/2 hour. I have decided to do the baths 2 times a day to see if we can help kick this bacteria.

He has stress lines now from where I made him flare and that has never happened before. Little white lines next to the area where he flared where his beard starts so I have him in quiet time now.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

In reading what you wrote Bettasforeverrescue I have not found that part of the research you are talking about. Where did you get that information from? I have been researching Columnaris quite extensively to try and figure out the best course of action which every thing I have read agrees with what Lilnaugrim has told me to do. If you know of other research I would love to read it as I will do whatever is necessary to cure Midnight. He is quite a fighter and has come back from the brink of death when we first figured out what was wrong. It started with tail biting and I think I found his stressor.


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

firewood04 said:


> In reading what you wrote Bettasforeverrescue I have not found that part of the research you are talking about. Where did you get that information from? I have been researching Columnaris quite extensively to try and figure out the best course of action which every thing I have read agrees with what Lilnaugrim has told me to do. If you know of other research I would love to read it as I will do whatever is necessary to cure Midnight. He is quite a fighter and has come back from the brink of death when we first figured out what was wrong. It started with tail biting and I think I found his stressor.


I work as a Veterinary Technician in a clinic with an on-call Aqua Culture Vet. Whenever I'm not 100% sure of my information I refer to him. He's 20 years my elder with 10 more years experience than me, so I tend to take what he says very seriously.

Columnaris will usually present along with other things, so it's not surprising it started with the tail biting. 

Did you ever treat the other fish that contracted it the way you are treating Midnight? The breathing issues of the Gold Fish definitely sounds like Columnaris as 99% of the time it damages the gills no matter the strain, with the more lethal strains having a more drastic and swift mortality rate.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Wow, thank you for looking at my thread! I did treat the goldfish, first with the AQ/MB bath and then added Jungle Fungus Clear first. 2 didn't make it long enough to further treat. The third goldfish seem to recuperate in the MB/AQ baths but then fail in the tank which I did water changes on while he was in the baths. I treated him with KanaPlex and Fungus Clear in hopes to get him cured but it didn't work. He died within 2 days of my discovering it. 

Do you know of anything else that I can do to try and pull Midnight through?


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

Can you tell me if you used both of those medications at the same time? The Fungus Clear and Kanaplex?

If both were used at the same time in combination and you're still battling, I might suggest another option. When showing no response to the use of Kanamycin/Nitrofurazone in combination (which are what is in Kanaplex and Fungus Clear), you can try a Sulfa drug like Triple Sulfa and Trimethoprim. That combination has worked well when Kanamycin and Nitrofurazone has not worked. I would try that, and if you're doing MB/Salt baths keep doing it while you're treating. Maracyn Plus has Trimethoprim in it. 

After that, the last thing I would consider is Minocycline and Tetracycline by using Maracyn 1 & 2 together as a combined treatment.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I started by using Fungus Clear by itself because that was the medicine I could get my hands on the quickest. I added KanaPlex as soon as I received it which was a couple weeks after I got the KanaPlex. He seemed to respond to treatment at first. He is clearing up the black part of his fins but it is a very slow process, although we had a set back when I was gone 3 days and my daughter did not do the baths nightly. It then went after his anal fin so I think a change of antibiotics might help. 

So if I get Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus as a combination next, I may get it to clear up. I was wondering if I changed up antibiotics if that would help. I had a stubborn kidney infection once and they changed my antibiotics weekly until it disappeared and I was wondering if that might help with a stubborn bacteria on fish. They used the same antibiotics just switching them back and forth.


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

firewood04 said:


> I started by using Fungus Clear by itself because that was the medicine I could get my hands on the quickest. I added KanaPlex as soon as I received it which was a couple weeks after I got the KanaPlex. He seemed to respond to treatment at first. He is clearing up the black part of his fins but it is a very slow process, although we had a set back when I was gone 3 days and my daughter did not do the baths nightly. It then went after his anal fin so I think a change of antibiotics might help.
> 
> So if I get Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus as a combination next, I may get it to clear up. I was wondering if I changed up antibiotics if that would help. I had a stubborn kidney infection once and they changed my antibiotics weekly until it disappeared and I was wondering if that might help with a stubborn bacteria on fish. They used the same antibiotics just switching them back and forth.


With Columnaris you have to be very diligent. So what you could do is combine the fungus clear and kanaplex together and re-treat for the full amount of time while continuing MB/Salt baths every day. However I wouldn't keep him on antibiotics for more than a week at a time, so if need be pause him for a day or 2 if you think he can handle it, while still doing the baths, change his water and re-start treatment so he gets ALL the days with the combined treatment.

OR if you want to, you can switch to the Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus combination and treat for the full amount of time that way, while still continuing the baths every day.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I am very diligent it was just that I had to go out of town for my mother's estate and my daughter didn't do what I asked to care for him. I have finished the estate stuff so I will be fully on his treatment from now on. 

I have finished 2 rounds of KanaPlex with Fungus Clear with 2 days in between. I switched on Sunday to KanaPlex and Furan 2 in case he was getting a stronger dose of medicine as I was not sure of the dose of Fungus Clear they do not list the amounts of ingredients.So do you think that I should continue the dose of Furan 2 and KanaPlex or do you think I should change it? I can go to Newport and get the new Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus tomorrow. Or should I let him rest a couple days and start the new antibiotics? Thank you for your help! I really appreciate it!


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

Kanaplex should be dosed 3x, and since you must use Fungus Clear with it for Columnaris at the same time, you must dose that 3x as well. The MIC (minimum inhibitory concentration) values of these medications individually are too low to treat Columnaris effectively, hence why they must be combined. So I wouldn't worry about going the full dosage with it along with Kanaplex. 

You never want to treat a fish with antibiotics for more than a week straight, because it can start to negatively impact their liver. So say you treat him for a week, you need to give him 5-7 days off after that before retreating. If you've treated him for a few days with one medication, give him a day or 2 break before switching to the new one. 

If you plan to rest him, you can mix Furan 2 & Kanamycin in with the MB/Salt baths as well and that will help. You can actually mix his medications in to the baths even when you're treating him. Generally the bath technique is good for helping an early case of Columnaris, but it is a must for any case of stubborn and moderate-severe Columnaris. If you have to go away again, I would explain to whoever has to take care of the fish that this part can not and should not be skipped. 


In my opinion since he has been struggling for so long, I would switch to Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus. This treatment has been very effective when Kanaplex and Fungus Clear have produced minimal to no results.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay, I will switch him when I go over to Newport to get the meds. I also will take him off all meds in his HT and add them to his baths so as not to hurt his liver. He has been on the meds over 7 days. By dose every 3 days does that mean that the amount of meds he is receiving go up every 3 days or that the same amount is dosed every 3 days? I change his tank every day while he is in the baths so am I giving him the right amount?


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

firewood04 said:


> Okay, I will switch him when I go over to Newport to get the meds. I also will take him off all meds in his HT and add them to his baths so as not to hurt his liver. He has been on the meds over 7 days. By dose every 3 days does that mean that the amount of meds he is receiving go up every 3 days or that the same amount is dosed every 3 days? I change his tank every day while he is in the baths so am I giving him the right amount?


I believe Kanaplex calls for the same dosage to be used every 2 days, up to 3 doses, my 3x may have confused you for days, sorry I use medicinal short cuts all the time, bad habit XD. A treatment plan would look like this:

Kanaplex day 1 dose
(no meds)
(no meds)
Kanaplex day 2 dose
(no meds)
(no meds)
Kanaplex day 3 dose

That would be a full week.

In your case it would have been in combination with Fungus Clear as well. It would be the same amount with each dose. Adding it to the baths is advised because of the fact people change their water more frequently when dealing with any contagious and stubborn fish disease. 

As long as you add it to the baths don't worry about your water changes disrupting it, as long as he has a full 24 hours to sit in his tank with a full dose.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay that is clear to me now. Thank you so much for your help. I know that he wouldn't have been alive if Lilnaugrim hadn't helped me so much and now with your knowledge maybe I can kick it out of him for good! Thanks!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

This is what Midnight looks like today. He bit his fin again!  I think it is because he doesn't have the gold fish to keep his attention anymore. Plus it looks like he snagged his tail on the bottom of a plant so that is now out of his tank. I thought it was safe but I noticed him sleeping at the bottom of the plant today and then the snag was on his tail. I snipped the plants off and just stuck the stems in the substrate for now. I think I will put him in the darkened room for a couple of days.

I tried one more round of KanaPlex and Furan 2 as I couldn't get the myacin plus. It seems like his fins are growing very slowly but I can't tell if he still has the columnaris. His stomach is bloating because he just ate and has a full belly from frozen brine shrimp which I have been feeding every night to keep his energy level up. It makes his AQMB baths easier for him. I am not sure what to do next but I think he needs a rest from all antibiotics for a few days. I rested him two days before starting the third round of KanaPlex and Furan 2. He is on his last dose of Furan 2 in these pictures. He is still really active.

Please let me know what you think? Lilnaugrim and bettasforeverrescue.


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

His overall colors looks like it has improved compared to the last pictures you posted of him. Resting him is wise, medicating for more than 10 days in a row can do damage. 

As far as IF the Columnaris hasn't been eliminated the only thing I could suggest was my last treatment of Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus. 

Can you confirm that the rot has stopped/is gone? Hard to tell from the pictures and your eye in person is better than ours looking at pictures over the internet.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

It is so hard to tell if the rot has gone away with his biting his fin. I think that there is one spot on the long part of his anal fin that is darker but not quite black anymore, sort of a dark blue. I noticed with his caudal fin that it grows clear than turns dark blue than his actual color. Sometimes it doesn't turn clear but it is obviously growing back.

I finally found Maracyn Plus on ebay that I can afford but did you know that the patent expired and it is hard to get now? I just hope that the one I ordered is not expired. I can get triple sulfa from the LPS. I think that I need to rest him at least a week but will give him MB/AQ baths 2 times a day so that the bad fin rot can't get a hold on him again. What do you think of that? Is that the right thing to do?
I have noticed that there are a lot of people watching his progress, I hope that this helps them too! Thank you for all the positive thoughts that I know you are sending for him to get well!


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

firewood04 said:


> It is so hard to tell if the rot has gone away with his biting his fin. I think that there is one spot on the long part of his anal fin that is darker but not quite black anymore, sort of a dark blue. I noticed with his caudal fin that it grows clear than turns dark blue than his actual color. Sometimes it doesn't turn clear but it is obviously growing back.
> 
> I finally found Maracyn Plus on ebay that I can afford but did you know that the patent expired and it is hard to get now? I just hope that the one I ordered is not expired. I can get triple sulfa from the LPS. I think that I need to rest him at least a week but will give him MB/AQ baths 2 times a day so that the bad fin rot can't get a hold on him again. What do you think of that? Is that the right thing to do?
> I have noticed that there are a lot of people watching his progress, I hope that this helps them too! Thank you for all the positive thoughts that I know you are sending for him to get well!



I hope the one you get is not expired. I hadn't heard that the patent on it had run out. I can't think of another medication available to the hobbyist that contains Trimethoprin right now, but I can do some research or ask the AQ Vet if he knows of one you would be able to purchase over the counter.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

I guess what I read about the patent on Maracyn Plus must be wrong because my bottle is good until 12/31/16. Maybe they changed something to get it back...who knows?

I took Midnight off of all antibiotics and was trying to make it a week without meds but the fin rot came back with a vengeance! So we only made it two days. 

I started him on Maracyn Plus on Saturday night by Sunday Morning he was just hanging out at the top of his HT in a corner. This is the first time he has acted sick since the beginning of this ordeal ! I started the Triple Sulfa last night and this morning he is just hanging out near the corner of the HT at the top just floating. He will respond but doesn't swim much at all. I did the MB/AQ baths once a day and I have not missed one. I change the water in his HT daily. He is still pooping but there is an area near his stomach that is a little swollen. I am really worried that we are losing this fight for his life.

Is there any advice you can give me Bettasforeverrescue or Lilnaugrim? I am trying to stay positive and that this is just a reaction to the new medications. Are there different side effects that he might be experiencing? I am trying to wait this out and see if he bounces back again. When he was on the Kanaplex and Furan 2, he didn't seem to have any issues. But then, he has been on medication quite a while and I don't know what the internal side effects have been. I know that I have tried everything to save my lil guy and he has been such a trooper, I just want him to come out of this a survivor so bad!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's kind of normal for antibiotics and fish. Some antibiotics and medications are more harsh than others and he just may be feeling it now. Even with human antibiotics (mostly the same products, just stronger), we generally feel sicker on them and then better once we're off and the antibiotics kill off the bacteria that made us sick in the first place. It's one of those "you have to get worse, before you get better," kinds of things is all. If he starts to get pale, refusing foods, floating on side or sinking, that's when you want to worry a little more. But for the moment, likely it's just due to having many medications over the whole course of this and all the stresses just finally catching up to him.

He has been quite a trooper! I do agree. Just try to keep all stresses to a minimum. If you can find a tannin source like Indian Almond Leaves or Oak Leaves (as long as they come from a yard with no pesticides/insecticides and they're fully dried; not taken right off the tree and green, then you're good) are good or Rooibos tea is another easy one to find; it's naturally caffeine free. You just soak a bag in the water and it lets out tannins that darken the water which helps our fish relax. Again, keeping it dark and in a quiet room helps too.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks lilnaugrim! I had been putting Rooibas tea in with him and stopped with the new medication. So I will put that back in. 

He has been floating at the top and has trouble swimming down to the bottom. He seems to float back up like he can't stay down and sort of bobs with the bubbles from the filter. He is still eating but I am giving him a little less than normal due to the swim problems. I am giving him frozen brine shrimp at night in his AQMB baths still. He is still pooping so we are good there. We are on day 3 of Maracyn Plus and day 2 of Triple Sulfa. This new behavior started with the Maracyn Plus from within the first 12 hours. The bobing behavior scares me a little but he remains upright all the time so I hope that this is okay.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

BTW, I wasn't going to get another Betta for a while with all that we have been through but I was afraid that Midnight was fading so we went to Mini Pet Mart and got a new Betta. My 5 year old made me take this one. I was calling him King Trident or Calipso but my daughter insists his name is Aquana which I believe is going to stick. He is a DT with red and blue coloring.

I will be extremely careful not to cross contaminate this one. He is so busy exploring that he won't eat but I am not worried, he was in a very small cup and probably really needs to swim. He looks to be very young and quite healthy. I sterilized everything with salt and bleach and boiled the substrate but I have not added it yet because I want to see if he poops right etc...

Everything has also aired dried and not been used since...Malachi. I rinsed everything really well in hot water again before I set up this 2 gallon tank. He will go in the 10 gallon that I have also sterilized 3 ways when the tank finishes a fishless cycle which is in the middle of happening. I have .5 Ammonia and .25 nitrates right now with 0 nitrites so it hasn't balanced yet. 

Anyhoo! Meet Aquana! (i guess that is his name?)


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

I basically would have to say what Lil did. He has been on antibiotics for a long time now, and it may all be catching up with him. 2 days in between switching medications isn't a lot. There have been times where I have had my med's switched and did not feel so great for a few days. 

Prolonged treatment with antibiotics can cause liver and kidney damage, which is irreversible. I have noticed over the years that some fish react differently to certain medications. One of my own females does not react well to Fungus Guard, but my other females do fine with it. 

His color still looks good, and from the pictures I can't see any fin rot. Accidentally overdosing Triple Sulfa can cause a fish to react in an odd manner/breath heavily. What is your exact dosage in the HT tank right now??


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

The instructions for Triple Sulfa are 1 packet for 10 gallons. One packet is 1 teaspoon so I am giving him a little less than 1/8 of a teaspoon since I am mixing it up in gallon jugs. He isn't breathing hard, he is just bobbing near the top of the tank and can't hardly swim down from the surface as his body goes back up right away. 

The fin rot came back yesterday with a vengeance and has eaten part of his anal fin to within millimeters of his body. It has also attacked his caudal and is taking it in strips. You can see the bones right before the long piece of what should be his anal fin. (see attached picture) He has also lost more of his dorsal fin. I am on day 4 of Triple Sulfa when he gets his dose tonight and the final dose of Maracyn Plus. I think that this strain of bacteria is immune to the Triple Sulfa because it has advanced under these meds. 

It didn't advance with the KanaPlex and Furan 2 but it didn't heal very quickly either. My Poor Midnight, should I continue on these meds or take him off and return him to KanaPlex? Or???

Thanks Bettaforeverrescue and Lilnaugrim for all your help!


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## tool50 (Mar 1, 2016)

Firewood, sorry to see/hear about midnight. He's definitely been through a lot, but this doesn't look good. It would be nice to find that magic cure.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks Tool50! I would love to find that magical cure for him. He has been fighting a long time and I have tried very hard to find that cure because he has hung in there so long and he has been a very happy fish up until Saturday. I am going to keep trying as long as he continues to greet me and eat. Although he doesn't have many fins left, he is still swimming every once in a while and greets my 5 year old when she is near the tank too.


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

It may be possible the strain you are dealing with has become resistant to all of these medications, especially if you've been treating for a while. Which could explain the getting slightly better and then no change/progression routine you seem to be going through. 

Certain strains of Columnaris are just terrible, and are VERY aggressive and often never fully respond to treatment. 


Finish his dose of medications as well as keeping up with the MB/Salt dips. Do you have any salt in his tank? If not I would highly advise using AQ salt in his tank for 10 days at a medicated dosage level, and afterwards switching the dosage down to about 1/4 of the medicated level to be in his tank full time. I keep AQ salt in all my of my tanks regularly. If you already have the AQ salt in the tank just skip this little tid bit of info!

A lot of people debate over the usage of AQ salt in tanks full time, but most of the information is confused between medical doses of salt and maintenance doses of salt. A maintenance dose will keep your fishes slime coat up, improve gill function and prohibit the growth of bacteria. 

The ONLY other thing I can advise would be to try medicated food along with keeping up with the baths. Terramycin is the most commonly used in fish farms when dealing with Acute Columnaris. You can try Kanaplex as well if you don't want to purchase anymore medications. You just soak their food in water that has the medication pre-dissolved in it. 

However this fish has been on a very hard medication schedule for quite some time. I would start to worry about over medicating at this point. It's very possible after all these medications that his immune system is off balance and there are no good bacteria left, as a lot of these medications can destroy good AND bad bacteria. 

You could try PP, but I do not recommend it's use by non-professionals or people that do not have experience using it. Below is a paragraph of information our AQ Vet sent out via email the other day after he had taken a case of an infected trout pond and referenced his information on the disease in general. Treatment of large outdoor ponds and aquarium fish is different but just in case you wanted some more information on Acute Columnaris in different form I thought I would include it.

Columnaris disease was induced in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque), by bath exposure to four highly virulent isolates of Flavobacterium columnare. In untreated controls, mortality began 20 h after exposure and reached 100% by 48 h. Mortality in channel catfish given antibiotic treatments with oxytetracycline or a combination of sulphadimethoxine and ormetoprim in feed prior to bacterial challenge was zero with all four strains of F. columnare. Diquat (Zeneca Agricultural Products, Wilmington, DE, USA) was the most effective bath treatment; mortality with all four strains was zero. With potassium permanganate, chloramine-T, hydrogen peroxide and copper sulphate, bath treatment efficacy varied significantly among strains (P = 0.0346) and among treatments (P = 0.0033). Bath treatments with chloramine-T and potassium permanganate significantly reduced (P < 0.05) mortality from 100 to 75 and 69%, respectively, but copper sulphate and hydrogen peroxide treatments were not effective. Based on our results, oral antibiotics prevented columnaris disease but, of the bath treatments, only Diquat produced a dramatic reduction in the mortality of acutely infected fish. Diquat is labelled for aquatic use as an herbicide in the USA but in large ponds it is prohibitively expensive.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks Bettasforeverrescue. I know that this strain is resistant to the triple sulfa and Maracyn Plus for sure as it advanced under that treatment. It seemed to be under control and retreating on the last round of KanaPlex and Furan 2. But then I tried the Triple Sulfa and Maracyn Plus and everything I had accomplished got wiped out. However, He is regrowing his dorsal fin which is where it all started from. I have not put AQ in his tank as I was doing the baths, but I could do that for 10 days again.

I am afraid that he has been over medicated and I do not know how to restore a fishes proper bacteria balance. How do you administer pro-biotics to a fish? From what I read they don't work so well, do you have any suggestions?

I have put KanaPlex and Furan 2 in his baths lately because I don't want him on a full treatment for a little while. Fungus clear halted the advancement of the fin rot again but I don't want him to be in that much longer either.

So I guess the question is do I let the fin rot continue? Or do I continue to medicate him which will eventually kill his liver? I thought if he is in the meds for only 30 min in baths 2x a day that it would be better for his liver than having the meds in his tank. I can also soak his food in KanaPlex and get some garlic juice so that he will eat the medicated food.

The good news is that the fin rot is paused again, he is getting stronger again and has a healthy appetite. He jumped out of the cup last night into his tank. It is hard to believe that I have been working to save my Midnight since Christmas Eve...

Thanks for the info on the pond fish and columnaris. I do have 3 Koi in a pond and I am watching them carefully as the weather is warming up here.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Midnight is still hanging in there but has lost even more of his fins. I have had him in 1 teaspoon per gallon AQ, Rioobis Tea, and Stress Coat in his tank only. I have fed him Kanaplex in Brine Shrimp and garlic. I am still doing the baths with AQ/MB, Furan 2 and KanaPlex. I have done this for about a week. His caudal is almost gone. He is still pretty happy and strong despite his fins.

I am thinking about using clove oil to antithesis him so that I can try applying topical medicine to his fins. I just don't know which medicine is best to use. Is it best to use MB or Hydrogen peroxide or something else? Any suggestions that could possibly work?


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

So you know how we love our Bettas and will try everything for them. Well, I have been studying about fin rot which is what is left of the Columnaris and my poor boy barely has any fins on the bottom portion of his body (anal, pectoral, and Caudal). He still sort of has a stick hanging down as his anal fin and a piece hanging straight out as what would be his caudal and yet his dorsal fin has been growing back. He is very lopsided and I do not wish to take pictures of him now. Anyway, I decided to try a topical method to see if that would help him since I am afraid of using any more meds for a while. So I decided to put him under with clove oil which scared me to death but I figured if he died I would have tried everything to save him possible. 

So I set up an operation table, small container for clove oil, small container with MB (9 drops per gallon) in case something went wrong, non shedding paper towels on a small plate that sloped downward so nothing would get to his gills. Laid out a paint brush to "paint" Hydrogen Peroxide on his decaying fins and diluted Melafix to "paint" on his fins after the HP. I watched several Youtube videos about how to put him under with clove oil to get myself educated enough to save him should anything go wrong. I put 3 drops of clove oil in a 16 liter water bottle shook it up and placed my guy in the small container of his tank water and slowly added the clove oil water a little at a time until he slumped over on his side. He really fought the clove oil and thrashed about which really scared me. He flared his gills way out a couple of times which was scary looking and something fell out of one. He sort of blew air out of his gills. After he went limp, I waited about 3 minutes to ensure he was out and lifted him onto the operation table. I began to paint his tail with HP and he laid still, however when I painted the underside of his belly, he flopped around a little. I don't know if it tickled him or if he was not completely under. I was very glad that I cushioned him with a lot of the paper towels. I don't think I had him under enough so I was really scared that he would be stressed out so much that he would die. When I finished painting him, I lifted him into the MB bath to revive him and waited. At first he was really stressed and unresponsive but within a minute he was back to swimming wildly around the MB cup. Then he slowed and stopped and stared into space. I thought, "Oh No! I've lost him!" but I left him alone while cleaning up the "operation area". He slowly came back to himself so I put him in his HT and put him in our darkened room. He has been fine all day today and is back to himself. 

Well upon examining the container that had the clove oil in it, I found that the thing that fell out was a large gill fluke or skin fluke. I think it came out of the gills as it fell out when he was flaring his gills. I do not know how he could have parasites when I have had him in MB/Salt baths for months but....there it was. Now as I have said, I wanted to keep him off of all meds even though his fins are falling off because of liver or kidney issues. Is there another way to rid him of flukes other than General Cure???

My poor guy is such a trooper and a fighter and I feel his appreciation for all that I am doing to save him. He still loves me despite all that I have had to put him through because he is still eager to see me even though he can barely swim. He gets as close as he can when I am in the kitchen area. I have him in 1 tsp/gallon AQ and Rioobis Tea in his HT while I wait for him to heal a little before any more medicines can be given again. I will let you all know if the topical treatment did any good, my hope is that it did and he will begin to grow the rest of his fins back. Surprisingly, the rot has never gotten onto his body. I would appreciate any thoughts from lilnaugrim or bettasforeverrescue on this. 

I want to say to anyone reading this that the clove oil is a very drastic thing for me to do and I did this after trying other methods to heal him. I do not recommend any one to do this unless you can not find another way. You can easily kill your fish with clove oil. I used it because I didn't want to stress out my boy any more than was necessary to try the topical method of healing. You really need to research what to have on hand and be ready for anything that can go wrong.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Good for you for educating yourself too! Sorry we didn't respond before, got a little busy here!!

I'm glad that helped but bad about the fluke....ugh >.< This poor boy! Just one after another huh? 

PraziPro and Clout are both effective against parasites. I've never personally used Clout but I hear it's very effective. Mardel Clout

What did the fluke look like? Anchor worm (rather big) or like just regular gill flukes which are much smaller, clear, tube-ish looking things.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

It looked just like the one on the package of API General Cure and it was rather large for coming out of the gills. While I was emptying his HT last night, I saw that there were all kinds of little critter things in his tank so I added General Cure after all.

My boys rot is back and is taking what is left of his caudal. It is sort of dead fin hanging there. So my topical treatment didn't work on the fin rot but brought out some critters that needed to be taken care of. 

The thing is, I don't think he is going to be with me much longer. He can still swim somehow but he tends to topple over because his dorsal is the longest fin he has. He is still greeting and eating. He is still fighting and trying so I don't want to euthanize him yet. It is extremely sad to see a fish with that much charisma fade like he has. I just wish there was a magic cure that would bring back all his fins. I did read up on how you can give your fish probiotics and I may give that a try but I am losing hope for him. Thanks for hanging in there with us.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

firewood04 said:


> It looked just like the one on the package of API General Cure and it was rather large for coming out of the gills. While I was emptying his HT last night, I saw that there were all kinds of little critter things in his tank so I added General Cure after all.
> 
> My boys rot is back and is taking what is left of his caudal. It is sort of dead fin hanging there. So my topical treatment didn't work on the fin rot but brought out some critters that needed to be taken care of.
> 
> The thing is, I don't think he is going to be with me much longer. He can still swim somehow but he tends to topple over because his dorsal is the longest fin he has. He is still greeting and eating. He is still fighting and trying so I don't want to euthanize him yet. It is extremely sad to see a fish with that much charisma fade like he has. I just wish there was a magic cure that would bring back all his fins. I did read up on how you can give your fish probiotics and I may give that a try but I am losing hope for him. Thanks for hanging in there with us.


Okay. And, usually when you do a topical treatment, you'd want to do it on an open wound for best results. Fin Rot is necrotic tissue, the black and reddish parts are all dead fin and closed off. Putting meds on something that is already dead, isn't going to do anything. So usually you have to splice open the fin with a very sharp razor to take off the dead parts and then apply the topical treatment. But, that's best only if the fin isn't so close to the body :-/

And yeah, I understand, it is hard to watch. Who would think that such a small creature would have so much personality and spunk! I can absolutely sympathize with you and I'm sorry it's been such a rough road for Midnight and then Malachai.


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## bettasforeverrescue (Jan 26, 2016)

Was busy here too, sorry! This poor guy :/ Prazipro is my go-to for most parasite related problems. Anything with praziquantel will help.

Flukes can cause rapid deterioration of the fins as well, have you been able to see any on his fins at all?

Glad you did your research before your procedure, clove oil is a scary thing if not used properly. I add clove oil water in very slowly and small amounts to avoid the gill irritation and panic. It can be very distressing to see your fish react in such a way.


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## Tealight03 (Nov 15, 2014)

The only thing I wanted to add is about probiotics. I soak the pellets in Vitachem and then dip them in the probiotic powder. I use Culturelle and break the pills open so the powder comes out. If you don't have Vitachem get the pellets moist with a little water. You just want the powder to stick to the pellet. 

Hope he turns around.


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thank you! I have given him some Culterelle in some frozen brine shrimp soaked with garlic but I couldn't get him to eat it. Ever since I did the attempt at topical treatment, he is not as trusting of me and hasn't eaten as much...

He has panicked in the MB/AQ bath the last 2 nights which is when I normally give him the frozen brine shrimp so that he will tolerate the baths better. I am wondering if he is going to make it much longer but he is continuing to fight so I will too!

I did see some other critters in the HT the next two nights. Much smaller than the original one and some of them did look like they could be flukes. So do you think that all the antibiotics I gave him maybe I should have also tried parasites? I wish I would have done that earlier but we knew he had columnaris so that was why the antibiotics. My poor fish!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hang in there firewood. I really admire that you are not giving up! With parasites gone Midnight will get stronger, and who knows, maybe by this point you have already cured fin rot but can't tell because of the bugs doing more damage.


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## Hopefish (Feb 9, 2016)

I hope your little guy starts feeling better now that he is rid of those nasty parasites!


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## firewood04 (Dec 24, 2015)

It is with a very heavy heart that I have to say that Midnight went to the Rainbow Bridge this morning. I have been crying off and on all day. 

His condition worsened over night, his quality of life was laying on a leaf sideways so I knew it was time. I went to him and told him it was okay to quit fighting and to go swim in peace at the rainbow bridge. He looked at me like he understood and let go almost right away within less than a minute. You see I have been telling him to fight and to fight hard and he did that. If he wouldn't have let himself go, I would have put him to sleep tonight as I said, his quality of life was gone. I already miss him and it will be weird not to do his baths tonight. It became a special time with him during his baths. 

I want to thank everyone who helped me through this whole battle! You will never understand how much you helped me learn and held me up during this battle. Especially want to thank Lilnaugrim and Bettasforeverrescue for the help with the medicine. You were awesome to stick with me from the beginning to the end Lilnaugrim! I wish there was something that I can do to thank you!

I took my girls to the a different LPS in Lincoln City to get another Betta since Midnight actually belonged to my 15 year old daughter and she asked for another Betta and we ended up with 2. I will post pics and stuff in the correct place. So now I have 3 Bettas to love but I will never forget My Midnight!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Aww, I'm really sorry. He had quite the road! At least he's at peace now and no longer suffering 

Congratulations on the new fish as well! ^_^


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