# What do you think of this?



## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

I am just fascinated by breeding betta fish. I did a few spawns last summer just to try it out. I feel they were successful in that I have a feel for the process. I just ordered two more pairs after giving a lot of thought to my long term goals. I actually plan on using pretty much every single female I can produce. Males will be heavily culled. Either given away, fed to Oscar, or any really nice ones will be kept on as breeders. Betta breeders are a fairly small group of people relatively speaking. I had to ask for help picking my pairs. I still do. I am a member of the IBC and my goals are to make fish that adhere to IBC standards. I'd love to make it super easy for new breeders to get their feet wet with good fish.


I was thinking about starting a junior breeders program where someone could obtain a nicely matched pair free from any major flaws for just the cost of shipping. Of course these fish would not be show quality but they wouldn't be worthless either. If my spawns go well I will start giving away free pairs. 

Thoughts?


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I think thats a nice idea. A lot of people have trouble finding or identifying decent starting stock, especially newbies. It would also encourage them to stay in the hobby because they arent producing mutts but nice fish as result of their hard work breeding and raising the fry.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

IBC offers that exact same program to new breeders.. members will send a pair for free to another member who is starting to breed. 

So basically, you are breeding just to breed, kill most of the ones you don't want to breed and then breed the females over and over? You realize you can end up with hundreds of females and you plan to breed them all? Why not just breed for the love of it, find homes for them when they grow up and breed only the ones you really love rather than breed thousands of babies just to kill to keep a male or two for breeding purposes?


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

+1

With your plan, you could potentially be culling half a spawn for no apparent reason... You also can't just breed every female you have, you need goals and a way to work forward. If you breed every female you ever produce you will end up with tons of fish of varying quality. Select and breed the best and only the best. 

I also am kind of appalled that you would kill so many males. Plenty of people would like them, if you start with good quality fish you will be able to sell them quick if you advertise enough.


----------



## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

But you have to be a member right? Seems like you could just take the $20 and put that towards a nice pair. I don't see why someone would want to be a member unless they tried it out and liked it. That's usually why one becomes a member of something. I wouldn't require anyone to be a member of anything. I would just advertise on the betta sites. You know, the sites where people ask if they should breed their Wal-Mart veiltails...

Am I breeding females just to breed over and over? Um, no, lol. I am planning to specialize in sororities. I have no intention of breeding all the females I spawn. 99% of them will never be bred. Only the exceptionally nice ones. Unfortunately for the males, it is what it is. The best will be kept for breeding stock. The very nice ones will be offered for sale or free to good homes. Anything that can't find a home will become dinner. Oscar needs to eat too. IMO it's no more or less unethical to feed him betta, comets or guppies...

I'm also not breeding just to create females. The females are simply a by-product of the small number of spawns I'll do at a time while working towards my goal. I do have an actual goal.


----------



## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

> Either given away, fed to Oscar, or any really nice ones will be kept on as breeders



Um...you missed the part about me giving the extra males away.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

You said you planned on using every female you produce, which comes across as though you are planning to breed every female you produce.

The 20$ starting fee is a lot less then what it will cost you to import a high quality pair.

When you become a breeder of anything, you have to accept responsability for the living things you produce. Killing fish because they don't have a home seems unethical to me, that's what jars are for. 

The Oscar can eat pellet food lol.


----------



## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

Perception...I suppose. You could have asked. 


> Killing fish because they don't have a home seems unethical to me, that's what jars are for.


Then that would make all culling unethical in your opinion right? I don't think too many betta breeders would support your opinion. Killing one is the same as killing 1,000. The effects are not quantitative. You are absolutely correct in that becoming a breeder makes me responsible for every fish I breed. That's why there is a plan for _*every*_ fish I breed.

I also wouldn't import a high quality pair for my first spawning attempts. That's too much money to pay out to start in a hobby that requires a good bit of skill and knowledge. To expect that from someone that is just toying with the idea of raising fish as a hobby is not realistic. Basically, you are saying that no domestically bred/raised fish are worth breeding.

Personally, I always try to source my fish from the US. If I can't locate what I want then I'm left with no choice other than to import.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I dont think one should have to be an IBC member if they want to breed nice fish. 
Lol missed the part about the killing of all unwanted ones....
But some might consider the ones that get fed to the oscar as a no more than constant supply of feeders. Feeders have to be bred by someone too, I think its no worse than breeding comets as feeders or even locusts.

What I got from the idea was they want to breed nice fish to give to beginners and newbies as starting stock to get into the hobby. That way they arent going to be breeding mutts and getting discouraged and quit when their fish turn out ugly.


----------



## Vickytoria3112 (Jun 4, 2013)

I thought BettaFish.com was for the love of Bettas. Not using them as feeder fish.

You can do what you want with your Bettas but I think it's a little cruel in my opinion.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The $20 a year will help people in learning how to properly breed, and what to look for.. in making goals and making lots of new friends. 

Majority of betta owners want a male.. the female trade is okay, but not as wide spread as you may think in order to say killing thousands of males is fine because you are finding thousands of females homes. Just my opinion.. What did you do with your other spawns?

Culling isn't easy, and it won't be once they get to the age where they are dancing for you and showing their personality, which is when you can start to guess a little more accurately their sex. So you will be raising these little ones for a long time before you will know with certain their sex.. you may have issue killing the ones you become attached to. I cull deformities and stunts.. it's necessary if you are wanting to breed healthy fry and to be able to find homes for them. But if they are healthy, why not try to find them homes? Help put a little change in the pocket to continue the ever growing expenses it takes to breed. 

There are a couple breeders out there that will kill any that aren't "perfect", and those breeders are pretty much shunned from most of the breeding community. Breeding these animals, the hours per day it takes, the hundreds and thousands of dollars spent to breed, etc.. it's a love. You don't make money on it at all but spend a lot.. you will soon learn that giving away every fish for free will be hard on the wallet unless you are rich or have a great job. Majority of the breeders here breed these fish because they love the species and want to improve and enjoy them. It's hard for most of them to accept that someone will breed them just to kill them because they are boys.. if you are already talking like this, then you may not have the time and dedication it takes at finding them homes.. which is why we believe you will rather just kill them than try to find them all homes as most breeders don't speak this way.

Keep in mind, not a whole lot of people keep sororities, just a small few who do.. you may see people here who have them, but out there in most of the betta world, it's not as common. So keep that in mind - unless you can work on a couple lines to make the females spectacular to sell them to make it worth the money/time I wouldn't focus just on the girls. You will want to breed the best, because without careful planning and knowing what to look for/what is best you will end up spitting out sub-par fish that will all end up in the mouths of oscars  

I wish you luck in what you do.. but honestly with your plans I think you are getting way in over your head with what you are wanting and will be overrun with fish which will end in illnesses, etc. Breed to enjoy and have fun.. enjoy the fish and find them all homes..


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

I think that nearly everyone I have read about breeding here has mentioned culling. Sometimes hundreds at a go, because they are slightly smaller or not the desired color, so jumping on someone who's matter-of-fact about it reminds me of glass houses and stones.

I think that a share or pay-it-forward program is a great idea. We are learning to breed, and I haven't posted about it here yet, but my first spawn are a week old. I am fascinated and enchanted by the process, and I have a good local market for my pet-store bettas.
But Ilikebutterflies has a point, I am not and honestly can't afford to pay Aquabid prices so I can start with a show-quality pair when we might have had only this one spawn and then said "Naah, it's not for us". We're not IBC members yet, because if we had decided we never wanted to bred again, there'd not have been much point to it.

Sometimes I think folks need to remember that we all start somewhere, and it's good of Ilikebutterflies to reach out. And, as far as the culling goes, unless a breeder has never culled a fish for say, ick or similar problem, or space - not just jar space, grow out tank space - or color, or for not having a 180 spread, etc, then it's not really fair of them to jump on someone who culls for a different reason then they do.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I've never culled for ich (that's rather ridiculous if you ask me, it's very easy and simple to cure), aesthetics (just seems plain cruel, and is difficult for the breeder because, like Myates said, by the time you can judge their qualities they are starting to show you their unique personalities), or space (if I ever have to many from a spawn, I will remove eggs from the nest... Much less cruel if done soon enough. This one is a bit more acceptable in my eyes though, since it directly impacts the other fishes well being). 

Anyways, yes, we all start somewhere, but we should help them start out right.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Honestly people breed goldfish to be killed, people breed danios to be killed why cant people breed bettas where a number of them can be killed? Not all will be killed and its a nice wee supply of live food for the oscar too.

Culling for looks is normal, most bettas are bred for looks so strict selection processes are placed on them based on looks. Some people may want culls but not enough people to harbour every single one. Personally I think its responsible to cull a bad fish instead if giving it to someone who may breed it. Even if you tell them not to theres nothing stopping them from still doing it or selling it to someone who will.

In NZ we have too many people not culling and honestly, as a result most of the fish for sale and bred in the country are poo. Absolute trash, horrid colours and mangy tails galore. But these are being sold and bought because no one is culling them and people are buying and breeding them. Now if those breeders were to cull their uglies instead of selling them the betta market wouldnt be swamped in skummy culls. 
So Im an advocate for culling sub par fish. The last thing you want is someone breeding your cull and theres no reason why a cull should have to take up the resources that could be given to a good promising fish. Plus the oscar gets a nice meal  

I wouldnt cull if a fish has ick though thats just lazy lol.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Firstly, I have to say I culled a batch of fry that had ich. Ich can be incredibly resistant depending on what strain you have, and after battling it in tanks that housed some extremely rare and valuable wilds, I decided to cull off the tank with the fry that was most severely affected because I didn't want to risk re-infecting everyone. Call me lazy, but if you have ever had a serious case of ich in very young fish you will know it is not at all easy to cure. 

Secondly, culling is a very personal choice that is largely dependent on the breeder's ethics and goals. Some breeders strive for perfection and so when it takes so much time and effort to raise a spawn, why waste time on those that don't meet the mark? 

You have to realise, that to many wholesale breeding farms, breeding bettas is a business. It's not just a hobby, it's their livelihood and so I imagine the attitude towards breeding and culling is going to be quite different to that of the average hobbyist. Yet those same farms produce some extremely nice fish. There is a reason so many people still purchase their bettas from overseas. 

I think there is nothing wrong with culling fry for whatever reason as long as it is done humanely. If you are fast the fish doesn't even know what has hit them.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Aquabid hardly the best place for breeding stock imo. Many of the aquabid fish are the culls of Thai breeders. You can get quality stock from breeders/members here actually. I havnt had to cull much but lucky have a good petstore helping me move the less than perfects that result in almost every spawn. Each spawn requires lots of time and some money put into it. Getting great stock is actually the cheapest part of breeding. It is the equipment, food and time that adds up.


----------



## Vickytoria3112 (Jun 4, 2013)

So this allows people to "play god" and cull fish to suit the goal you have set for the spawn rather than letting nature take it's course?

I understand if the culling is being done due to a severe deformity (maybe he can't swim to find food and will otherwise starve) or the fry is extremely sickly, but because the male doesn't meet you standards? Really? A lot of people would gladly adopt the less fortunate that didn't make the cut. Not a lot of people would breed them. Especially responsible people. Make sure you find them homes. You have a responsibility to make sure every healthy Betta from your spawn gets a chance to be happy and loved. Not just used as spawning machines.

Like I mentioned, I joined bettasfish beacuse I thought this was a place to find help and get advise on the best care possible. I'm just overwhelmed with this culling of bettas that just weren't pretty enough for you. It's like you being born and your parents say, "Oh disgusting, she doesn't have blue eyes. Let's toss her to the gators and try again."


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Culling is a very contraversial subject but it's one of those things most breeders have to deal with.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Lots of different opinions and views and ways.. I've only culled for deformities or stunts where the stunted are less than half the size of the medium sized juvies (I don't start culling until around a month of age, sometimes longer to give them a chance to catch up/make sure they do have the little bit of a curved spine, etc). 

My "misfits" are actually the better of the sellers and tend to go very quickly.. last batch was just a hodgepodge of different colors, fin degrees, etc and 30+ sold for $10 each within 24hrs (they were healthy and pretty, just not the style I wanted, fin spread not all reaching the 180, etc). So I don't cull for looks personally and it's of my opinion that if the fish is healthy you owe it to at least try to find it a home - whether give it a shot at a LFS, or give it away for free in a box if someone is purchasing fish and wouldn't mind a freebie. With that mindset and my experience in knowing you can generally find most of them a home if you are willing to put in a little effort, I can't agree with killing because of the sex of the fish, etc.

As for sick fish such as ich - I can see LBF's situation and can understand... sometimes it's just not worth the risk. Why I am extremely careful with cross contamination with my breeders. If a spawn is sick or I see a sign of scratching (velvet and such is common in spawns) then I will treat immediately and go into quarantine with them. Normally whatever the issue was clears up pretty quickly as I hit it immediately when it starts.. but I could see myself making a decision on whether or not a spawn should/could be saved and whether it would be ideal to save it (whether or not it has a possibility to affect my breeding stock or other spawns). I wouldn't call not treating an illness lazy, it's something that each breeder has to decide on a case by case situation. If a breeder breeds large volumes of fish then I can see them letting that spawn go because they would lose out on so much if it spread. But if a breeder is small and breeds one or two spawns at a time then it's much easier to control the damage. 

I may be blunt, but that's just me.. I have seen too many breeders stop respecting the fish and the hobby in favor of wanting to be "elite" or the "best".. and kill hundreds and hundreds of fish because they don't meet the "standards" nor are the correct color (this time in place of color it would be the sex of the fish). A lot of breeders only cull when at a young age (myself included (so far)), so knowingly go into something and saying I will kill all these fish because they are male when they are older (near mature) to some breeders, it just upsets them. So please understand that you will have people who do not like _hearing_ it.. we all know people do things that just aren't right - like cutting the male's fins saying it will produce healthier/larger spawns, culling due to color, etc.. a lot of breeders try to ignore those things so we don't think about them and when we see/hear them we get upset. I personally am not upset at you, just at the thought of so many lovely fish who just seem to want attention and live "happily" will die due to their sex.. it saddens me. It happens in the animal breeding world all the time, but we don't have to like it. As for the feeder fish.. I wish they didn't have to be bred for feeding other animals.. but we do have cows and pigs.. some are kept as pets, most are kept for food for us. But we don't breed some animals to be food for us.. same with the fish.. some are, some aren't. At least it's an animal that is basically on the lower spectrum of awareness/mental intelligence and they know no better.. whereas by the time you are able to sex the bettas they will recognize you and respond to you. That is the hard part 

Again, I wish you luck in what you do.. it's not you, but hearing the "ugly" side of some people's breeding choices is what gets some people upset, so please keep that in mind when you discuss it - you'll get the answers and such you want, but there may be someone/s who will disagree is all. It's the downside of being open about the breeding uglies.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Vickytoria3112 said:


> So this allows people to "play god" and cull fish to suit the goal you have set for the spawn rather than letting nature take it's course?


That is how *all* domestic animals were created.

And by mentioning the reason some folks cull, I was not saying that any of those reasons are wrong, or implying bad about anyone. Just that we all make the choices we deem necessary, and others do as well.

Everyone who sees my girl bettas happy and playful in a 10G heated, filtered tank wants some. They may not be as showy as the males, but they are more active, interesting and colorful then a vast many commonly kept fish.

I mentioned here, that I just had my first spawn - now, I might not have that many, but I already have 2 males and _8_ females spoken for. So I can see where Ilikebutterflies is coming from. Most folks just don't realize that they can keep a few female bettas in a tank, but once they've seen it they _want_.
And those girls will get to live in a roomy, heated, decorated home for the rest of their lives.

Whearas males ... people want to treat them like an entirely different species of fish. Small bowls, do we _really_ need to spring $15 for the heater? And other people do it, so what's the big deal (you don't get the other people do it argument when selling the females)
So it actually can be harder to find them good homes, and there are folks here who'd rather cull then have their boys end up a table decoration being poisoned by a floating candle, y'know?

Different folks, different choices. I'm sure no one here has made their decisions based on callousness or without sorrow for the necessity they feel.


----------



## Vickytoria3112 (Jun 4, 2013)

That's why breeders need to educate people on the proper care of Bettas to make sure they go to good homes. What your mentioning with them being used as ornaments is true to an extent. That's why breeders have the responsibility to make sure all healthy fish get a chance at a good life. These animals don't know any better yet the humans are allowing them to breed for their own pleasure and deciding who gets to live and who gets to die. Does that make sense to you?

Yes you can spawn and breed all the Bettas you desire to a desired line of genetics that your looking to improve. I get it 100%. I'm not bashing anyone about it. But those Bettas didn't meet to your standards should get to go to a good home. They didn't ask to be here, remember that. They feel, they need, they enjoy, they make you smile, and unfortunate times they make you cry. Let someone else love them even if you don't.

For the love of Bettas, please do it right.

.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Culling animals is a fact of life. It may not be pretty, but it has been happening ever since domestication began and goals were set. Does anyone think those breeders in Thailand, etc., that everyone raves about don't cull the Bettas that won't sell on AquaBid or won't fight?

Do any of us have a purebred anythiing? It didn't get that way without culling. Even if we have a mixed breed, there was culling of its purebred ancestors.

Those breeders culled because they didn't want people buying animals that shouldn't be bred and then doing so. Now it's not PC to admit to culling so we have exploding populations of poorly bred and mixed breeds of whatever with an incredible number of genetic problems.

That being said, could I cull? Nope. But I won't criticize someone who does because having been involved with canine rescue for 40+ years, I understand why it's done.

The OP wants to help bring others into our world with breeding pairs of nice Bettas. Somehow that admirable goal been lost in the brouhaha over culling. 

These are just my thoughts and not directed at anyone who's posted against cullling.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Vickytoria3112 said:


> For the love of Bettas, please do it right.
> 
> .


So the breeders and creators of almost all the colours and types of betta available today werent doing it right? Just because you dont agree with it doesnt make it wrong. 
Culling has to be done whether you like it or not, what you cull for is up to the breeder alone.

+1 RussellTheShihTzu 
You pretty much said what I was trying to say but in a much better way lol


----------



## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

This is very interesting to me. I was wondering how betta breeders feels about breeding and culling. I was talking to Discus breeders a few years ago. They are all about Culling. They want the best of the best. 

Culling is needed because when bred in an aquarium survival of the fittest is not there. I think Weak, sickly, or deformed fish should be culled. There is nothing wrong with selling pet quality fish if they are healthy stock. In the wild out of a few 100 fry only 10 or 5 might make it to adulthood to breed.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Actually Snowflake311, it worse then that.

The entire point of reproduction is a stable population. So bettas can spawn 500 fry every month in the hopes of two making it to breeding and replacing their parents.
Number of offspring is directly tied into pressure on the population. Elephants have one baby every 5 - 10 years and don't start having babies for about a decade, because there's not a lot of things that eat elephants. 
Bettas breed at 3-4 months, can do it monthly and have 500 at a go - in the hopes that _two_ will make it to 4 months old.

No matter how hard you cull, they've still got a lot easier time then they would if nature were allowed to take it's course.


----------



## Dwarden3 (Apr 1, 2013)

I think this is a great idea. I certainly want to breed bettas, but I do not want to breed bad fish. Education and supplies will help breed quality and standard. I think this is good to do for betta spelendens, and all other species of betta.


----------



## whatsupyall (Oct 17, 2012)

I think you are thinking too far ahead. Take many steps back. Right now, just think about breeding the pairs . After your spawn has matured, then you come back and tell us about this program lol. As a breeder, receiving $5 or $10 dollars is nothing in regards to money wealth. Personally, I take it more as a "thank you for your hard work, here is my appreciation". Did you seriously consider giving away your hard work to a stranger who will probably just keep it in a bowl? Don't you think someone who is willing to spend a couple bucks is more appreciative of your hard work as well as giving it a better home? This is probably why this program would not work and no one has done it. I admire your thoughtful kindness though.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

This whole thing isn't the fact that fish will be culled.. even the best breeders cull. It's that they will be culled simply because they are males. Not because of deformities, or because they aren't "perfect", etc. It's that they will die simply because they are boys rather than anything else is what has some people upset.. Poster wanting to do what the IBC does and give out free pairs is fine (MANY breeders give out free pairs ALL the time, I see it constantly on FB alone and I've given out a good amount of free fish to members here, etc who are starting to breed).. Poster wants to specialize in selling groups of females is fine. But killing hundreds simply because they are boys is what doesn't sit right with some and that is completely understandable.

So, no need to argue whether or not culling is good/bad/done/not done.. it's why they are being culled was the main issue.

I look at one of my very young boys from a recent spawn and I just can't imagine culling him because he has such personality lol (He is giving me the grumpy face here because I disturbed him from flaring at a neighbor lol) But this is just my opinion..


----------



## Vickytoria3112 (Jun 4, 2013)

If you guys like to cull that's your business. There's nothing I can do about it. But if you were actually reading the original post, then you would know why I am upset about it.

The title asks, "What do you think of this?"

Well, I thinks its disgusting. She asked for my thoughts and I gave it. Nough said. Stop trying to convince me that animal cruelty is ok. I understand culling and why its needed. Just don't like the way the poster is going about it.


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

OMG, that boy is so pretty, Meredith!!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks! Should see him when he is all flared out  He is 3.5 months there, now he's roughly 4.5 months.. already had spawned once and he's in the breeding tank this minute with another female who is getting pretty close to accepting him.. she spent half the night jumping on top of the IAL leaf and frogbit to hide lol.


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

When she sees how handsome he is all flared out she'll accept him. Lol


----------



## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

Vickytoria3112 said:


> The title asks, "What do you think of this?"


I thought she was asking about her idea of sending breeding pairs to new breeders. (which sounds great  

I'm going to be breeding my pair within the next week or so and am not looking forward to culling, so I'm trying the leave dad with fry method, so that he can cull for me (may not go so well, since it's his first breeding too). I hate thought of killing any of my current fish, just because they're deformed (and a few are), I love Oscars and think they're great and all, but I wouldn't want to cull by feeding my bettas to larger fish (I think that's a terrifying way to go)  But sometimes culling needs to be done


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

<<I thought she was asking about her idea of sending breeding pairs to new breeders. (which sounds great  >>

That's the way I read it, too.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

There is nothing saying you have to cull a lot. Personally I am most comfortable with not culling unless they are badly deformed/weak/have a life altering condition. If you get a very large spawn, you can gently remove eggs out of the nest. If it is done while you are removing the female (so you only have to disrupt him once) it is not very cruel at all, they are not even developed yet. Plus, there are plenty of great people on this forum who would more than likely be willing to take in a "pet" fish with a bent spine or something. Culling because they turned out to be male sort of disgusts me. 

Yea, people argue that oscars are natural... Personally I don't think it would be very pleasant at all. 

I read the original post as a general "what do you think of my plan".


----------



## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

> If you get a very large spawn, you can gently remove eggs out of the nest


I do this. I don't want the logistics issue of caring for 200+ fry from one spawn. It's too hard for me to choose between 200+. I always whittle my spawns down to less that 100 roughly eyeballing it.


----------

