# I keep two male bettas together, but I'm paranoid now.



## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

I have two four-year-old male bettas. They lived next to each other for years without flaring or fighting through the divider. However, I found out a few months ago that their tank is too small, so I got a 15-gallon and moved them into it together. I was taking out their divider during the day (when I could supervise, they're next to my desk) to give them more room and putting it back at night when I couldn't watch them. This went on for a couple of months until I decided to leave the divider out since they don't fight. They even "sleep" beside each other. They are both very, very mellow.

However, now I'm reading that they should never be together, and I'm worried that something will go horribly wrong. When they fight, do they tear each other apart? Or is it more like damage over time? They are both perfectly healthy and don't have ragged fins, which is one issue I read about. Should I separate them immediately? Would going back to dividing the tank at night be enough? 

I'm imagining waking up to a bloodbath.

Thanks


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Ehhhh, in the past two years on here only 2 males didn't fight, in one case one was blind, in the other it only lasted a couple months before they fought. You might not be noticing signs of aggression, does one stay more to the bottom of the tank? Do they try to avoid each other? Does either have a special "spot" he goes to a lot? If so they're establishing territory, and if the epweaker one steps out of line he will be killed.
Are they the same age and size? Same color and tail type? Are there a lot of hiding places in the tank? It's possible they think they're spawn brothers, in which case they'll tolerate each other until someone steps out of line. It could be as simple as getting to the food first or startling the other, but it won't end well.

While I love hearing stories of bettas being together, remember that fish aren't people. They have feelings, but not he same as we do. Bettas are instinctual. They don't have thoughts, they might have have intelligence and personality, but they're still not considered as self aware. Dogs and dolphins are the only proven animals to be self aware (aka have thoughts other than "food" and "ouch") so they're instinctual. Watch this then decide if they should be separated http://youtu.be/4HG-DnEls24 they "get along" for he first couple minutes, but I can see the aggression during those 2 minutes


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I'd separate them immediately, you're right to have those worries. They can do small amounts of damage over time but it isn't unlikely or uncommon for one to be fine when you check in once and dead next time. Plus, stress is surely much higher which leads to illness and early death.

There's no benefit to having the tank undivided, I don't see why you'd take the risk.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

+1 Sayla and Matt, Keep the divider in or take one out of the tank and get him a new one. Even if they seem mellow and don't fight while you're watching them doesn't mean they won't fight. And when they do it's a good chance one will not make it. They fight to the death.


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## Axeria (Feb 6, 2015)

I have heard horrible stories about bettas living together that got really violent suddenly. We are talking evisceration and a painful death following that. Why risk your fish's well being....


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Ehhhh, in the past two years on here only 2 males didn't fight, in one case one was blind, in the other it only lasted a couple months before they fought. You might not be noticing signs of aggression, does one stay more to the bottom of the tank? Do they try to avoid each other? Does either have a special "spot" he goes to a lot? If so they're establishing territory, and if the epweaker one steps out of line he will be killed.
> Are they the same age and size? Same color and tail type? Are there a lot of hiding places in the tank? It's possible they think they're spawn brothers, in which case they'll tolerate each other until someone steps out of line. It could be as simple as getting to the food first or startling the other, but it won't end well.
> 
> While I love hearing stories of bettas being together, remember that fish aren't people. They have feelings, but not he same as we do. Bettas are instinctual. They don't have thoughts, they might have have intelligence and personality, but they're still not considered as self aware. Dogs and dolphins are the only proven animals to be self aware (aka have thoughts other than "food" and "ouch") so they're instinctual. Watch this then decide if they should be separated http://youtu.be/4HG-DnEls24 they "get along" for he first couple minutes, but I can see the aggression during those 2 minutes


No, neither goes to the bottom. No special spot as far as I've seen. They don't avoid each other, far from it. They're usually swimming side-by-side or sleeping beside each other. 

Yeah, the fish in that video looked tense from the start. Mine don't behave like that. They're very relaxed.



> I'd separate them immediately, you're right to have those worries. They can do small amounts of damage over time but it isn't unlikely or uncommon for one to be fine when you check in once and dead next time. Plus, stress is surely much higher which leads to illness and early death.
> 
> There's no benefit to having the tank undivided, I don't see why you'd take the risk


More space for them. I don't have room for more than a 15 gallon, and they seem so happy to get to explore when the divider is out that I feel bad about keeping them to 7 gallons each.

If it's possible for them to do that much damage that quickly, I will divide them at night again.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

Axeria said:


> I have heard horrible stories about bettas living together that got really violent suddenly. We are talking evisceration and a painful death following that. Why risk your fish's well being....


I didn't realize they're capable of doing that kind of damage. 

I'm not risking it deliberately. I took the divider out to give them more space and because they seem to like each other. If I didn't care and just wanted to risk it, why would I be asking here? :-?


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Why don't you keep watching the video, so you can see how they fight. Some bettas are nice, they bite the other in the stomach and pull out its heart. Quick death. Others are not nice, they need to tear the others tail to shreds, then skin it, then leave it to bleed out and die. 

I get that you're trying to be nice, but this is why I said they're not humans. While bettas can be more comfortable or less comfortable, giving them more room won't make them "happy" and 7g is plenty. 

Remember when they're constantly following each other that's also a sign of aggression, they don't wanna let each other out of their sight.


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## Axeria (Feb 6, 2015)

It was not meant as a mean coment to your fishkeeping skills at all! Please dont take it that way  The question was rethorical hence no question mark In the end of my post. I think its really great that you ask ^_^ 


And yeah they are capable of ripping into each other quite violently, they are bred to fight and kill.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Why don't you keep watching the video, so you can see how they fight. Some bettas are nice, they bite the other in the stomach and pull out its heart. Quick death. Others are not nice, they need to tear the others tail to shreds, then skin it, then leave it to bleed out and die.
> 
> I get that you're trying to be nice, but this is why I said they're not humans. While bettas can be more comfortable or less comfortable, giving them more room won't make them "happy" and 7g is plenty.
> 
> Remember when they're constantly following each other that's also a sign of aggression, they don't wanna let each other out of their sight.


I watched it, it's just hard to get my mind around fighting because they're trapped in a tiny tank VS fighting in a heavily planted tank with plenty of room to get away from each other.

I know that's aggression, but they don't follow each other. They mill about while they're exploring the tank, looking through the gravel for extra snacks, etc. 

7g doesn't feel like much space to me but I put the divider back and will just take it away when I can watch them. The smaller one, Ollie, is so excited when the divider is lifted that he darts all over the place, which is why I feel guilty about only letting him have 7g. The big one would not be bothered, he is very lazy.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

Axeria said:


> It was not meant as a mean coment to your fishkeeping skills at all! Please dont take it that way  The question was rethorical hence no question mark In the end of my post. I think its really great that you ask ^_^
> 
> 
> And yeah they are capable of ripping into each other quite violently, they are bred to fight and kill.


No problem. And OK, thanks.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

It's not worth the risk, imo. When things go down hill they go down fast. 



Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Dogs and dolphins are the only proven animals to be self aware (aka have thoughts other than "food" and "ouch")


What about other primates, like orangutans?


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks, I'm going to keep the tank divided unless I can be there to supervise them.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

I wouldn't even lift the divider at all. 7g is plenty for each fish. But it's up to you. 

Just don't be surprised when one is ripped to shreds by the other.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

SplashyBetta said:


> It's not worth the risk, imo. When things go down hill they go down fast.
> 
> 
> 
> What about other primates, like orangutans?




Here's how stupid the U.S. govt is, each individual primate has to be tested to see if it can be considered to be self aware, if it passes it'll get some kinda special treatment, but if it's never tested then it's automatically considered as not.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

BettaStarter24 said:


> I wouldn't even lift the divider at all. 7g is plenty for each fish. But it's up to you.
> 
> Just don't be surprised when one is ripped to shreds by the other.


That's not going to happen in the 3 seconds it would take for me to get up and put the net in to remove one of them. It's not possible, they're not piranhas. If it is, wouldn't it be on Youtube? Some brat would take a video of it and upload it. I'm having a hard time imagining they're capable of shredding another fish in 3 seconds.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

You'd be surprised how fast they can move when they want to and how fast their fins will get shredded. I'm highly very very very highly and strongly recommending you keep the divider in and DO NOT lift it AT ALL no matter what.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

Three seconds is all it takes. One of my sorority girls lost half her tail in only a few seconds. They really are *that fast*.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

Why does it take so long on all the fighting videos people (unfortunately) upload for any damage to be done? And those are strains specifically bred for fighting, not to look nice...


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Probably because they've worn themselves out. Or because they're busy sizing each other up, trying to figure out how best to attack, but they can move extremely fast. One of the members here had a female take almost 2/3s of her male VT's fins off completely in a few seconds while trying to breed them. He only has a little bit of his caudal fin, dorsal and a teensy bit of his anal left.


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## Axeria (Feb 6, 2015)

Betta splendens have been bred for hundreds of years to fight! The bigest meanest fish where bred with each other for generations to make agressive killer fish so they could make money on fish fights similar to dog and rooster fights. That is where their temperament comes from, why they flare at the sight of other fish and even objects and why caring Betta splendens owners keep their fish separate! Its not to be difficult, but because these fish are bred to fight and kill each other. Lately they are bred for looks mainly yes thats true, but that does NOT cancel out hundreds of years of breeding and genetic engineering  Please listen to the very experianced people on here, they only want the best for your fish


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

BettaStarter24 said:


> Probably because they've worn themselves out. Or because they're busy sizing each other up, trying to figure out how best to attack, but they can move extremely fast. One of the members here had a female take almost 2/3s of her male VT's fins off completely in a few seconds while trying to breed them. He only has a little bit of his caudal fin, dorsal and a teensy bit of his anal left.


Fair enough... didn't realize. I will leave the divider then. Thanks for taking the time to answer.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

7g is actually really really good for a betta and I'm extremely happy to see bettas in good size tanks! too many are stuck in half gallons or worse. 1-1.5 g is ok with proper maintenance but 7g is amazing and better than the sad majority of bettas get. 

I didn't mean to sound rude or pissy if I did but I just want the best for your boys and I don't want to see anything happen to either of them on the chance that they did end up fighting.


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## Snowlily (Feb 15, 2015)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Dogs and dolphins are the only proven animals to be self aware (aka have thoughts other than "food" and "ouch") so they're instinctual.


Even though it's entirely off topic I have to chime in here because this is incorrect. 
Self awareness or self concept is very hard to measure. The method commonly used to test for self concept is the mirror test.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test 
Non-human animals that pass this test and are thought to have self-awareness include apes, elephants, pigs, dolphins and magpies.
Dogs do not pass the test and are not thought of having a self-concept (I disagree on this but I have no way to test or prove it) 
Human toddlers on the other hand also don't recognize themselves in a mirror and don't seem to have a concept of self until they reach a certain age.
You would still call them conscious though and they certainly have more thoughts and feelings than "food" and "ouch".
And as a matter of fact a lot of high esteemed scientist have recently stated in the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness that all mammals and birds and many other animals including octopuses are conscious. http://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

BettaStarter24 said:


> 7g is actually really really good for a betta and I'm extremely happy to see bettas in good size tanks! too many are stuck in half gallons or worse. 1-1.5 g is ok with proper maintenance but 7g is amazing and better than the sad majority of bettas get.
> 
> I didn't mean to sound rude or pissy if I did but I just want the best for your boys and I don't want to see anything happen to either of them on the chance that they did end up fighting.


That makes me feel a little better, and thanks; it's no problem. Sorry if I seemed defensive.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

It's ok. and if you're looking for something to use to exercise them you can float a mini floating mirror in their tank for a few minutes a day as well.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

BettaStarter24 said:


> It's ok. and if you're looking for something to use to exercise them you can float a mini floating mirror in their tank for a few minutes a day as well.


They don't pay attention to mirrors. I think I have "defective" betta fish. :|


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

I have a boy that doesn't care about mirrors as well. Another thing I found that will get even my most mellow fish flaring like nuts is to draw a dot on the tank with a dry erase marker. It might not work with every fish but it works with my Oliver who hardly ever flares anymore.


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## Declan (Mar 8, 2015)

BettaStarter24 said:


> I have a boy that doesn't care about mirrors as well. Another thing I found that will get even my most mellow fish flaring like nuts is to draw a dot on the tank with a dry erase marker. It might not work with every fish but it works with my Oliver who hardly ever flares anymore.


I'll try that, thanks for the suggestion.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Snowlily said:


> Even though it's entirely off topic I have to chime in here because this is incorrect.
> Self awareness or self concept is very hard to measure. The method commonly used to test for self concept is the mirror test.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
> Non-human animals that pass this test and are thought to have self-awareness include apes, elephants, pigs, dolphins and magpies.
> Dogs do not pass the test and are not thought of having a self-concept (I disagree on this but I have no way to test or prove it)
> ...


Ok, I got my info off an article about (an orange primate of some sort) passing the test and zoo officials being ordered by the (Mexican?) govt. to stop abiding it in a tiny cage, and from sea world. I guess I'm more sheltered from science than I thought. Sorry


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

Bettas that can see each other through a divider are enough exercise for each other. My fish that are in side by side tanks (vertically) race each other periodically during the day. I think the are happy I've had fish appear depressed when I moved a laid back betta next an active one. I match them by personality. They have plants to go roost in if they get tired of seeing each other. Betta have a concept of each other IMO as I have seen them get depressed over the loss of their tankmate next door. They sulk in the back of the tank and become anti-social when they normally greet me and are wiggly. 

Bettas definitely have sharp teeth however small. Just let one bite a tender part of your hand it may not kill you but you will feel it.


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## KaisynKai (Mar 5, 2015)

Declan said:


> That's not going to happen in the 3 seconds it would take for me to get up and put the net in to remove one of them. It's not possible, they're not piranhas. If it is, wouldn't it be on Youtube? Some brat would take a video of it and upload it. I'm having a hard time imagining they're capable of shredding another fish in 3 seconds.


let me try to help put some wisdom in here --- im with Declan to the point where I'd love to have a tank with 1-3 male bettas swimming happily in it -- but that might IMO be a 75 gallon long tank fully planted so they might possibly have their own space but tis unlikely that is gonna happen ..... 

Declan Ive had a 6 gallon long tank divide and went to the store I came home to see my boys on one side of the tank my red one fins were so bad, he had scales missing and sadly he didnt make it --- I will not divide any more tanks I wont risk it. When you put your time into arraging ur tanks, buy your stuff and ur fish its just not worth the risk. 

but if you somehow manage to have 2 bettas that get along all the best, ive never seen it but good luck and enjoy ur boys


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Ehhhh, in the past two years on here only 2 males didn't fight, in one case one was blind, in the other it only lasted a couple months before they fought. You might not be noticing signs of aggression, does one stay more to the bottom of the tank? Do they try to avoid each other? Does either have a special "spot" he goes to a lot? If so they're establishing territory, and if the epweaker one steps out of line he will be killed.
> Are they the same age and size? Same color and tail type? Are there a lot of hiding places in the tank? It's possible they think they're spawn brothers, in which case they'll tolerate each other until someone steps out of line. It could be as simple as getting to the food first or startling the other, but it won't end well.
> 
> While I love hearing stories of bettas being together, remember that fish aren't people. They have feelings, but not he same as we do. Bettas are instinctual. They don't have thoughts, they might have have intelligence and personality, but they're still not considered as self aware. Dogs and dolphins are the only proven animals to be self aware (aka have thoughts other than "food" and "ouch") so they're instinctual. Watch this then decide if they should be separated http://youtu.be/4HG-DnEls24 they "get along" for he first couple minutes, but I can see the aggression during those 2 minutes


Just a fyi, dogs are instinctual. That's why punishment doesn't work for them. They cannot comprehend that they have done anything wrong. And there are alot of animals that are fully self aware. Elephants, most primates, just to name a few. Dogs are only capable of reading human emotion and actions. That doesn't make them fully self aware. Dogs are one of the few animals that are able to read our body language. Cats can too, they just don't care what we think. But I agree with you on saying that fish aren't generally aware and aren't capable of human emotion or feeling. (Although I do like to think that they do)


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

^^I think the "orange primate," Sayla, was an orangutan :-D

I have a boy who completely ignores mirrors, but the second I draw a splotch on his tank with a dry-erase marker (it comes off glass super easy) he flares up. So I second what BettaStarter said! +1


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## Noivurn (Feb 20, 2015)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Here's how stupid the U.S. govt is, each individual primate has to be tested to see if it can be considered to be self aware, if it passes it'll get some kinda special treatment, but if it's never tested then it's automatically considered as not.


"Only dogs and dolphins" being self aware is just scientifically inaccurate. In 2012 the scientific community agreed that (while possibly not "all") animals are self-aware. Definitely primates, as well as most mammals and birds, and octopuses, among others. 

The entire declaration, for anyone curious. 

I still don't know whether or not it would be safe to keep them together- but the idea that they "don't have thoughts" is probably not true. Having thoughts does not equal having thoughts the same way as humans, though.

Edit: Didn't realize someone else had already posted a link to the Declaration on Consciousness, but yeah. I'm hopefully going to study animal consciousness as a career after school, so I had to chime in.


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