# Guide to proper ADF care



## Gizmothefreaky

So, with so many people asking about them all the time, i figured it was time to put the best knowledge i have on one easy to find page!  This is info that i have pulled directly off of the best websites i know, and some from my own experience of raising them for many years. 

*ADFs are 100% aquatic & *should never be out of water*. They are most active in the evenings, resting throughout the day. ADFs grow to about 1.5" snout to vent (nose to butt) length & can be identified by the webbing between the toes on the front flippers. Females will often be larger than males. Males will show a white spot on their sides under their front arms when mature and may start “hugging” (amplecting) other frogs. Male is smaller, develops a small red or white spot behind his armpits when sexually mature. When viewed from above they have a V shape ridge across the back from the anus across the rear legs (see picture below). The males also have a tiny to no visible 'tail' bud. The females are far rounder in appearance and have a small tail bud. The males also sing, while the females only sing rarely and usually as a response to the male. 


 
 *Listen here to the singing of an ADF!*


*
*
*Use *at least 3 gallons water per frog* & nothing smaller… frogs do need room to swim & don’t get lonely in a bowl/tank on their own but the interaction between 2 or more is delightfully more entertaining for you. The ADF, like all frogs, have to discard their outer layer of skin every few weeks as they grow. They accomplish this by twisting and turning violently, and often go on to eat the skin. Young and juvenile ADFs tend to be more active near the water line and prefer floating plants to lie upon. The ADF is very long sighted and as adults have eyes on opposing far sides of the skull. This means it has great difficulty in seeing anything close to it or directly in front of it, so it relies on its sense of smell and vibration to find its food. It can often be seen stabbing at food on the bottom, missing quite a few times! It can take a ADF ten minutes to discover that there is food in the tank. So if a ADF is kept with fish, you have to allow for this by feeding the fish first in one place and then feeding the frog in another place. It can be all too easy for a inexperienced owner to starve their frogs if kept with bottom feeding fish. Peaceful animals which are known for their 'comical' behaviour.
*
*ADFs are great escape artists, so you’ll need a lid on your bowl/tank. ADFs breathe air from the water’s surface, so be sure to leave space for air between the lid & water’s surface. This is a fully aquatic frog and will stay underwater for hours; however, it still needs to periodically come up to the surface to breathe. The substrate must be too large or (preferably) too fine to be eaten by the frog while lunging for its food. If gravel is eaten by the frog, it will remain in the intestinal tract, cause blockage, and shortly afterwards, death. Sand or river rocks of at least 0.5cm (0.2") in diameter is recommended. The minimum tank size for one adult frog (over a year old) is 18.9 Litres (5 US G.). A young frog can probably get away with 11.4 Litres (3 US G.). Biological filtration perhaps isn't needed if the owner keeps up with regular weekly water changes. But it helps keep the levels of ammonia down if the owner neglects, overstocks or overfeeds. If it happens to be a power filter with a intake pipe, cover it with fine mesh to prevent the trapping of the frogs' delicate legs causing it to drown. This is a common occurrence in larger tanks. These frogs cannot be out of water for more than 10-15 minutes. If they somehow escape into the relatively desolate environment of an average home, their skin will dehydrate, and they will die. These frogs can be easily kept in aquariums with a tall water column. A -43cm (18-24") tall tank is not a problem for them.  The water level must be dropped 2.5-5.1cm (1-2") from the top for two reasons; one, to allow for proper gas exchange and respiration of the frogs, and two, to prevent escape and therefore death. Otherwise ensure there are no escape holes for the frogs to explore. A ADF can easily jump 7.6-10.2cm (3-4") into the air from a solid base.*



*Change 100% of the water once a week with conditioned same-temperatured water if you have one frog in a 2-gallon tank or less. Tanks that are 5-gallons or more should be "cycled" and have on average, 25% of the water changed once per week.


*Keep the water temperature ideally between *75-80*F*, though down to 70*F & up to 82*F may be ok as long as your frog remains healthy. Don’t set them in direct sunlight or on anything that heats up (e.g. PC/TV). Use a stick-on-the-outside (liquid crystal) *thermometer* to monitor the water’s temperature.


*Adding a *small live plant *(such as Java Fern) will help your water conditions & give your frog a place to rest on or hide in or you can add an aquarium-safe silk plant. Large stones/gravel that are too large to be swallowed may be used on the bottom.


**Feed a varied diet, but no freeze-dried or dry pelleted foods*, which can cause intestinal blockage & death. Frozen (but thawed) bloodworms, brine shrimp on occasion, or Frog & Tadpole Bites are a good variety. ADF's are meat eaters & they won’t eat flakes. A frog's tummy will bulge slightly when fed enough. Overfeeding can lead to health problems. It will not harm an ADF to go for a day or two on occasion without being fed but do ensure your frog is eating if kept in a community tank with other fish who might eat all the food before the frog has a chance to hunt for it. Their close-up vision is very poor, so they hunt the bottom of the tank for hours in search of their food.


**Tankmates* should not be aggressive, bottom feeders or African Clawed Frogs. If your frog would fit in the mouth of any other fish in the tank, then they are not suitable tankmates, as your frog will be eaten. Be sure your tank has at least 1 gallon of water for each inch of adult sized fish you keep. They often like to float lazily on the surface of the water so most tankmates should be those that prefer the mid-ranges of a tank. Will not bother any fish as long as it's bigger than itself. It will eat fish fry. It has been reported that ADF are compatible with larger shrimp such as Amano shrimp. They are not compatible with crayfish. Some people keep ADFs with Bettas. This is difficult as Bettas are also carnivores, so they compete for the same types of food. Often the Betta gets fat whilst the frog starves. Best to find a way to feed the frog without the Betta being able to eat it all. A word of warning, when ADFs are kept with Bettas there are stories of either the ADF having his eyes and toes nipped and even legs broken by a feisty Betta, and on the other hand, there are stories of ADF's grabbing a Betta's tail and hanging on causing stress and injury to the fish. 

******* In America and Canada most large chain shops are selling these frogs infected with Chytrid Fungus, a highly infectious and deadly fungus which kills within the first 3 months of ownership. This is believed to be due to the shops mixing the African Clawed Froghttp://theaquariumwiki.com/African_Clawed_Frog (which is a immune carrier) in with the dwarf frog and so passes on the fungus via the water. It is recommended that owners in these countries quarantine their new frogs for no less than 3 months before placement in their main tank.


Hmm... That seems to be all for now, if i remember anything later i will be sure to put it here.  As i said, some of this information is my own, and some was taken directly from websites, so it may be a little redundant in places, and for that i am sorry. 

Alo, if you have any more questions, please feel free to contact me!! :3


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## Gizmothefreaky

You guys can ask me questions here you know... XD


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## downerbeautiful

Do you have an ADF? 

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say mine haven't eaten in the two-three days I've had them. That being said, yes I can read your food descriptions of what to feed them. What, EXACTLY, do YOU feed your ADFs? That is, what food, what kind of food, what brand of food, in what way do you feed them, et cetera? I'm looking for specifics, not a list, please.

Thanks!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I do not have any right now, because i dont trust the stores where i live to have healthy ones, but i have had many over the years. 

I feed mine frozen thawed bloodworms and HBH brand Frog and tadpole bites. I believe there is another company that also makes soft sinking aquatic frog food, but i trust HBH brand. 

Personally i only target fed my frogs when they were young, old, or new, other than that i would scatter food through the whole tank every other day so that they could forage for food. Not only is it enriching, but they get moving while looking for food, and dont become fat blob frogs. lol! I also found that this hinders the ability of the fish to eat all of the frog's food, because a lot of it would go where the fish couldnt see it or reach it. 

I hope this helps! And please, feel free to pick my brain. X3


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## dramaqueen

3 gallons per frog?


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## BettaMiah

Yeah. 3 gallons? You said I could keep one with my Betta in my 3 gallon. ?


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## Gizmothefreaky

dramaqueen said:


> 3 gallons per frog?


 For females, which are larger, that is a good size, but that passage is directly copied from a good website, it isnt the standard. I believe it is a good starting place though, because of how active they are. I say near the bottom that you can follow the general rule of one gallon per inch as well. 




BettaMiah said:


> Yeah. 3 gallons? You said I could keep one with my Betta in my 3 gallon. ?


And you can, if you keep up with the care. I say near the bottom that you can also follow the 'one gallon per inch of fish' rule with them. The passage about three gallons was copied right off a website. 



Three gallons per frog is about the same standard as you see here on the forum about bettas. "2.5 gallons is the minimum for bettas!" ah, but what about those bettas that prefer one gallon? Like OFL says, 'a betta can be just as neglected in a ten gallon as they can be in a one' the same can be said for ADFs. If you take care of it correctly and give it all it needs, then it can be alright in less space, but remember, they are quite active in the right settings, and you may soon realize that the frog would ENJOY much more space.


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## dramaqueen

What is the minimum amount of frogs you can keep together?


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## Gizmothefreaky

They do alright by themselves, they are just more active and entertaining for us in groups of two or more.


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## SnowySurface

Sorry if I'm being picky, but I had a question about this part I read about Chytrid fungus. 



> The fungus consumes the Keratin in the amphibian's skin, the skin is afected and grows thicker therefore inhibiting the animals ability to breath through its skin and to regulate its internal electrolytes.
> The build up of electrolyte salts such a potassium and sodium in the body is now believed to stop the heart.[1]
> It takes around 2–3 months for a typical infected frog to die from this fungus. The speed of the infection varies with temperature as the fungus prefers cooler temperatures to grow.


Since the speed of the infection deapends on temperature of the water, should I quarintine longer for warmer water? For example, 3 months if the water if 75 degrees but 4 months if the water is 80 degrees. I've been thinking about setting up a 10 gallon for 2 -3 ADFs and want to make sure I quarintine long enough in case 1 of 3 frogs are sick. Since I'm in the US I just want to make sure getting a ADF now won't end in heart ache. T_T

Besides, if QT is really 3 months, I could pick up the frogs now and have them in 3 gallon kitter keepers while I save money up for the 10 gallon set up. Even if the frogs get a month head start on their 10 gallon permanent homes, cycling could still finish before QT time is up. XD


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## Gizmothefreaky

SnowySurface said:


> Sorry if I'm being picky, but I had a question about this part I read about Chytrid fungus.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the speed of the infection deapends on temperature of the water, should I quarintine longer for warmer water? For example, 3 months if the water if 75 degrees but 4 months if the water is 80 degrees. I've been thinking about setting up a 10 gallon for 2 -3 ADFs and want to make sure I quarintine long enough in case 1 of 3 frogs are sick. Since I'm in the US I just want to make sure getting a ADF now won't end in heart ache. T_T
> 
> Besides, if QT is really 3 months, I could pick up the frogs now and have them in 3 gallon kitter keepers while I save money up for the 10 gallon set up. Even if the frogs get a month head start on their 10 gallon permanent homes, cycling could still finish before QT time is up. XD



Since the fungus prefers cooler water, you would actually be better off QTing them in cool water, to be able to tell if they are infected faster. Just keep them at the low end of their desired temp range for the QT period to watch. 

You can avoid the three month QT all together just by buying from a breeder who ONLY breeds ADFs, or can guarantee that the ADFs have never come in contact with any other breed of aquatic frog (such as ACFs). 

If you can only buy from a chain store, they QT is a must, i have tried to buy from a certain chain pet store ending in 'ETCO' and beginning with 'P', and they all have died in days. Only when buying from either small mom and pop stores, or local (even having them shipped) breeders have i had any luck with keeping them alive. 

I hope this helped, though it may have ended up being confusing, because i am good at that. XD Good luck!


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## ManInBlack2010

this thread is extremely helpful!! i right now have a female in a 3.5g with one male betta i know it's a bit small but now i have plans to move her into my 5.5g with my other male and buy a male adf for her so she has a friend. I wanted to know what your thoughts were on this. I think she would enjoy the 5.5g much more than the 3.5g - the 3.5g is a little tall and i think she has trouble getting to the top. the 5.5g is much lower and longer. I'm not sure how Bocephus will react to the frogs since i just got him today. I want him to adjust to the tank for maybe a week or two before i add Dixie and then get my male. I didn't do a qt on dixie and she has been perfectly healthy so far. Ate the second day she was here but is extremely shy and there are some days when i can't even find her she's that good at hiding. do you think her in the 5.5 with a male and Bocephus would work better or do i need to get her her own tank? i really don't have the room for another tank...


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## Gizmothefreaky

ManInBlack2010 said:


> this thread is extremely helpful!! i right now have a female in a 3.5g with one male betta i know it's a bit small but now i have plans to move her into my 5.5g with my other male and buy a male adf for her so she has a friend. I wanted to know what your thoughts were on this. I think she would enjoy the 5.5g much more than the 3.5g - the 3.5g is a little tall and i think she has trouble getting to the top. the 5.5g is much lower and longer. I'm not sure how Bocephus will react to the frogs since i just got him today. I want him to adjust to the tank for maybe a week or two before i add Dixie and then get my male. I didn't do a qt on dixie and she has been perfectly healthy so far. Ate the second day she was here but is extremely shy and there are some days when i can't even find her she's that good at hiding. do you think her in the 5.5 with a male and Bocephus would work better or do i need to get her her own tank? i really don't have the room for another tank...


I think it is great that you want to get her her a buddy!  

5.5 gallons for two frogs and one betta will be pushing the bioload, not saying dont do it, just be very certain to keep up with water changes and maintenance. ^^;

I usually say 3gal - 1 frog, 5gal - 2 frogs, 10 gal - 3-4 frogs. But those are just guidelines, and by no means the law in ADF keeping. XD 

Hope that helped! Any more questions just give me a shout, i am here nearly every day!


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## SnowySurface

Gizmothefreaky said:


> Since the fungus prefers cooler water, you would actually be better off QTing them in cool water, to be able to tell if they are infected faster. Just keep them at the low end of their desired temp range for the QT period to watch.
> 
> You can avoid the three month QT all together just by buying from a breeder who ONLY breeds ADFs, or can guarantee that the ADFs have never come in contact with any other breed of aquatic frog (such as ACFs).
> 
> If you can only buy from a chain store, they QT is a must, i have tried to buy from a certain chain pet store ending in 'ETCO' and beginning with 'P', and they all have died in days. Only when buying from either small mom and pop stores, or local (even having them shipped) breeders have i had any luck with keeping them alive.
> 
> I hope this helped, though it may have ended up being confusing, because i am good at that. XD Good luck!


Unfortunately, my only options are Petco and Petsmart. There used to be a local Aquarium near me, but the economy wasn't very nice to it. So, I'm stuck with the long QT time. T_T

I'm nowhere near starting at this point. I may ask for supplies for Christmas, but the frogies are on hold. Thanks for the tips. Now I know how to plan everything better and the general timeline I'll use.


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## ManInBlack2010

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I think it is great that you want to get her her a buddy!
> 
> 5.5 gallons for two frogs and one betta will be pushing the bioload, not saying dont do it, just be very certain to keep up with water changes and maintenance. ^^;
> 
> I usually say 3gal - 1 frog, 5gal - 2 frogs, 10 gal - 3-4 frogs. But those are just guidelines, and by no means the law in ADF keeping. XD
> 
> Hope that helped! Any more questions just give me a shout, i am here nearly every day!


ok thanks! i think i am going to try it i'll just to be sure to do atleast a 50% water change once a week unless you think more might be needed. and i will definitely come here with anymore questions


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## kfryman

I have heard of ADFs eating bettas, is this true or what?


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## Rabbitkind

I have an ADF (Slick) in my 10 gallon tank. He's a skinny little thing and comes out mainly at night. But all the other times, he just hides inside his little house at night. Occasionally, he'll peek out the windows, but otherwise, I don't see him much. I've been monitoring my other fish along with him.
I'm concerned he's not eating. I try to put the food inside of his house (since that's where he is most of the time) but still, I don't know if he's eating it. Darned hiding places.

Any tips? I'm scared that he's starving. I'm still new at this so I've got paranoia. I have the HBH bits that you're talking about and also a sinking granule. I need to find the bloodworms though.


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## Gizmothefreaky

kfryman said:


> I have heard of ADFs eating bettas, is this true or what?



lol, that is completely false! ADFs rarely get more than two inches long.

What you are thinking of are ACFs, or African CLAWED frogs. They get big enough to eat good sized goldfish.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Rabbitkind said:


> I have an ADF (Slick) in my 10 gallon tank. He's a skinny little thing and comes out mainly at night. But all the other times, he just hides inside his little house at night. Occasionally, he'll peek out the windows, but otherwise, I don't see him much. I've been monitoring my other fish along with him.
> I'm concerned he's not eating. I try to put the food inside of his house (since that's where he is most of the time) but still, I don't know if he's eating it. Darned hiding places.
> 
> Any tips? I'm scared that he's starving. I'm still new at this so I've got paranoia. I have the HBH bits that you're talking about and also a sinking granule. I need to find the bloodworms though.



The best thing i can think of to make sure he is eating, is to put him in his own container at feeding times. 

It may be stressful for him at first, being chased and caught, but soon he will learn that it means food, and come to you. 

The pellets are great, but bloodworms really are needed for full diet. Male frogs do tend to stay skinny their whole lives. Females will get fat though. lol So cute.


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## ManInBlack2010

i'm having problems getting my female to eat too, my male VT she's with right now is a bully and i'm gonna move her probably this weekend in hopes that my other male is more docile. He's not bulling her persay but he gobbels up her food. I started trying to target feed her today with a pair of long tweezers and a terra cotta saucer and it went alright. She ate one pellet before Rebel saw what we were doing and came down and gobbled them up - i even poked the brat with my finger and pushed him away and he just bit me and continued to eat the food... gonna try targeting with blood worms tomorrow in hopes she'll eat those better


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## Gizmothefreaky

ManInBlack2010 said:


> i'm having problems getting my female to eat too, my male VT she's with right now is a bully and i'm gonna move her probably this weekend in hopes that my other male is more docile. He's not bulling her persay but he gobbels up her food. I started trying to target feed her today with a pair of long tweezers and a terra cotta saucer and it went alright. She ate one pellet before Rebel saw what we were doing and came down and gobbled them up - i even poked the brat with my finger and pushed him away and he just bit me and continued to eat the food... gonna try targeting with blood worms tomorrow in hopes she'll eat those better



If you want to try splitting them up, i would cup the male, and target feed her for a while, just to get her used to the process, and then she will eat much quicker in the future. It may also teach him that it is not okay to eat her food.


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## kfryman

Gizmothefreaky said:


> lol, that is completely false! ADFs rarely get more than two inches long.
> 
> What you are thinking of are ACFs, or African CLAWED frogs. They get big enough to eat good sized goldfish.


Thank you, I was confused because i know they don't get that big. lol


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## ManInBlack2010

Gizmothefreaky said:


> If you want to try splitting them up, i would cup the male, and target feed her for a while, just to get her used to the process, and then she will eat much quicker in the future. It may also teach him that it is not okay to eat her food.


that's a good idea, i'm gonna try that tonight!


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## dramaqueen

Can you put 2 frogs in a 3 gallon? I've been thinking of getting a couple of ADF's sometime. I have a 3 gallon tank. Also, do I have to have gravel?


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## downerbeautiful

dramaqueen said:


> Can you put 2 frogs in a 3 gallon? I've been thinking of getting a couple of ADF's sometime. I have a 3 gallon tank. Also, do I have to have gravel?


The frogs love to dig, so some kind of substrate is nice. If you do use substrate, either use something fine like sand or larger like gravel. The frogs can/will eat small substrate which can clog their digestive track. The sand will pass and the gravel is too large to eat.


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## BettaMiah

DQ- I think 2 males MIGHT be okay. I give males 2 gallons each, females 3. So you're just a gallon short... 

Maybe the frog and something else? Like a Betta? Thats what I have.


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## dramaqueen

I won't ever put anything else with my bettas. I just wanted a tank with 2 or 3 frogs. Also, how do you tell males from females?


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## SnowySurface

dramaqueen said:


> I won't ever put anything else with my bettas. I just wanted a tank with 2 or 3 frogs. Also, how do you tell males from females?


 The easy way to tell the difference is size since females get much bigger than males. Another way to tell is the gland male frogs have by their arm pit. I don't think anyone knows what it's for, but I think the most common guess is the gland attracts females or something. 

If worse comes to worse and you have two or three frogs of mixed gender together, one frog will give another frog a "hug". The frog doing the "hugging" is male and the frog being "hugged" is female. I would suggest looking for the arm pit gland since waiting this gender clue is where baby frogs come from. :-D


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## FuulieQ

Males have a certain body shape compared to females. Also, when they are mature, males will sing loudly, develop glands in their armpits, and get these really funny muscle-y arms. I've heard looking at the tail isn't always a surefire sexing trick, most of the sites I've seen say you only really know when the boys start displaying their behavior - I've even heard of females getting "glands" for a while before deciding they wanted to be girls for sure.  Not sure how true that is but I wouldn't be surprised.

My female is more oval/rounded than my male, and also a great deal bigger. Their two female offspring are the same as their mother, although they got their dad's coloration.  Girls are often better hunters than males. My girls are so piggy, I have to hand-feed all the time just to make sure my male gets food! They miss enough that there's usually stuff for them to forage left over.


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## BettaMiah

Also, males sing.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Well, i see i go away for a while and this thread is taking care of itself. XD 

I go over most of the basic info in the first post, but everyone else seems to have explained it very well.


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## dramaqueen

Good info.


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## Gizmothefreaky

lol, thank you!


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## Laki

I want to keep my 3 gallon kritter keeper. I don't want the larger one for fears it will break under the water weight. However, I seen ADF's in a store in the mall in those gimmiky tiny cubes -_-'' Now I want to rescue one, but they come in pairs. So, I want 2 but I want to keep my 3 gallon- which has my betta ...
Any suggestions?


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## Gizmothefreaky

You could keep two ADFs in the three gallon by themselves with the right ammount of water changes, but three creatures in the three gallon home would be too much. If you want to save a couple of the frogs, get a second KK.


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## Laki

I think my options for putting another 3g are pretty slim. The only furniture it could go is my desk (one tank is enough on it) and the kitchen window sill. If I got a bookshelf then maybe. Currently all our books are piled on top of our dressers and the shelves in the bathroom are not sturdy enough plus the steam and kitty litter would make for bad air quality for a fishy! 
Aw, I feel bad for the froggies though. And I wouldn't want to buy one from the LPS to just have one since they like to be together. 
Thanks for the info though


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## Gizmothefreaky

Im sorry i couldnt help you more. I am just concerned about water uality in a tank that small. If you got a book shelf, and one of those 6.6 gallon bookshelf tanks you could have your frogs in that.


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## Laki

I need a bookshelf first!!!  No, I really appreciate your response! Thanks! I needed to know why I shouldn't overstock my 3g. I don't a single frog. Maybe when I get money I can save for something lightweight I can get for frogs and Laki.. I have super back problems so that's another reason to keep it small. 2 tanks would be heck for me. Honestly.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Well, you might be able to get away with all three of them in the 6.6 gallon bookshelf tank.  It would be perfect for both frogs and betta, as it is long and low, good for froggies with poor swimming abilities. :3


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## Laki

Definitely something I'll look into! ^.^ Thanks


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## Gizmothefreaky

Not a problem!


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## dramaqueen

2 ADF's in a 3 gallon is ok? I know someone who had 3 in one of those little cube things. It was filled one 3rd of the way with gravel. Poor things.


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## FuulieQ

Oh, I HATE those cube things. They're terrible.

I've heard various things about frogs per gallon, the one that I hear most is one frog = one gallon, but I like to make it more than that. I have my 4 frogs in a 10 gallon.  As long as you keep up the water changes, most likely the one frog per gallon rule will be okay - I just like to give them more space. They're super cute when they swim around. c:


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## Laki

So I don't think I could even afford to save the ones in the store I seen them in those cubes. 60$ o.o I almost gagged. And the giant promo sheet for them says to feed them twice a week, never clean it (bc of bio cycling or something) and that they can live in that thing for 2 years or something. I don't know who to even talk to about it, the employees don't care.


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## Chesh

I've been browsing around this wonderful internet of ours, and happened upon this place... I saw this 

" In America and Canada most large chain shops are selling these frogs infected with Chytrid Fungus, a highly infectious and deadly fungus which kills within the first 3 months of ownership. This is believed to be due to the shops mixing the African Clawed Frog (which is a immune carrier) in with the dwarf frog and so passes on the fungus via the water. It is recommended that owners in these countries quarantine their new frogs for no less than 3 months before placement in their main tank."

and now I'm completely freaked out! On Sunday, on a total whim (spurred on by my toddler daughters) we stocked a fish tank with goldfish. Didn't know how little I know until all but one died through the night. On Monday we went to Petsmart, and my girls picked out new fish (all are doing fine, but we have a long road ahead working out the water quality, as we are cycling it while the critters are living there - I didn't know any better). They fell in love with a little Dwarf frog, and we brought him home. Since Monday night, he's been fine! I have him 'trained' already to eat in a spot away from other fish and kind of hidden, so he can have his special food and he's just awesome! We love him. . . I was already worried about losing him because of our uncycled tank, now I'm REALLY worried that he might be sick with Chytrid! What do I do? How can I tell? *cries* My daughters and I LOVE him!!! I don't have anywhere to quarantine him - I only have the brand-new tank that we stocked with fish. Please tell me he's fine!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Chesherca said:


> I've been browsing around this wonderful internet of ours, and happened upon this place... I saw this
> 
> " In America and Canada most large chain shops are selling these frogs infected with Chytrid Fungus, a highly infectious and deadly fungus which kills within the first 3 months of ownership. This is believed to be due to the shops mixing the African Clawed Frog (which is a immune carrier) in with the dwarf frog and so passes on the fungus via the water. It is recommended that owners in these countries quarantine their new frogs for no less than 3 months before placement in their main tank."
> 
> and now I'm completely freaked out! On Sunday, on a total whim (spurred on by my toddler daughters) we stocked a fish tank with goldfish. Didn't know how little I know until all but one died through the night. On Monday we went to Petsmart, and my girls picked out new fish (all are doing fine, but we have a long road ahead working out the water quality, as we are cycling it while the critters are living there - I didn't know any better). They fell in love with a little Dwarf frog, and we brought him home. Since Monday night, he's been fine! I have him 'trained' already to eat in a spot away from other fish and kind of hidden, so he can have his special food and he's just awesome! We love him. . . I was already worried about losing him because of our uncycled tank, now I'm REALLY worried that he might be sick with Chytrid! What do I do? How can I tell? *cries* My daughters and I LOVE him!!! I don't have anywhere to quarantine him - I only have the brand-new tank that we stocked with fish. Please tell me he's fine!!!



Oh dear! Calm down dear, the easiest way yo know if he could even be infected is to ask if they ever sell or carry the clawed frogs. Most chain stores dont carry them, so you should be fine, just keep an eye on your littly guy.


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## Chesh

LOL! Okay... I called and Petsmart ONLY carries the dwarfs *whew* Your first post said:

"In America and Canada _most large chain shops_ are selling these frogs..."

You should maybe change that for poor people like me who wander the internet far past their bedtimes and get freaked out! *giggle* I feel better now that he has less of a chance of being sick! Thanks for your speedy reply!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I actually can't change it now, and a lot of stores do still carry the frogs. 

I am glad to put your mind at ease though...


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## Chesh

So am I! And I feel better now that I've had my freak-out and am actually informed about a potential problem in the future (I would like to get him a buddy - eventually, after my tank is established and through cycling) I actually have quite a few questions for you, if you don't mind? I'm madly in love with him, as are my daughters, and I really want to do what I can to ensure he lives a long and happy life!

Can you explain further about the gravel/sand/rocks? Our ADF is living in an 18 inch high 29 gallon tank (we just switched everything over from the 10 gallon that we started with a week ago) What we have on the ground right now is typical-sized aquarium gravel. The man at the actual FISH shop (not where I bought the frog) says that in 15 years he's never seen a problem with the frogs eating the gravel, but I'd rather be safe. Can I leave this type of gravel in the bottom, or should I switch to something else? I can get the larger 'river rocks' sold in aquarium shops? You seem to imply that sand would be better, but is sand going to be compatible with the other inhabitants? (we have Mollys, neon tetras, apple snails, and guppies) 

Filter question - we just got a new filter, a Tetra brand 'whisper' filter. I can definitely see there being a problem with him getting suck, as you mentioned. Can I use a new pair of pantyhose to cover the filter intake? Or is there something better that you can recommend?

As far as feeding, the petshop told me that they fed him frozen brine shrimp, so that's what we've been doing so far. You mentioned brine shrimp being okay "on occasion," Is every day too much? He's gotten pretty good at eating it in his little 'house' which is perfect for him, and the fish haven't figured out how to get in there yet. I also have TopFin brand frog, newt, and tadpole bites. These are tiny little pellets that sink to the bottom of the tank. So far he has had trouble finding these - or maybe he isn't recognizing them as food. Either way - are these two things good food for him? I also am having a difficult time trying to figure out if he's eating enough or too much! He only seems to take a few bites then loses interest. . . sometimes he comes back for more later, and sometimes his leftovers have been eaten. I'm not sure how to better manage his intake, or really how much he NEEDS. I'm not sure if his belly is 'bulging slightly' or not!

That's it for now! If you can give me any advice here, I'd really appreciate it! I'm not finding much information online about these guys, and what I DO find seems to often be contrary. I'd love to hear from someone who has so much experience with these little critters!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Okay! Lets see if i can do this in short answers.... lol I'm on my phone. 

Sand is best, but typical gravel is good too, as long as the bits are roundly bigger than his head. The larger river rock can shift and trap little legs, so that is no good. 

Pantyhose is a feat filter cover, make sure it is new, and rinse very well in HOT water before use. 

Frog pellets like you have is a good main food, brine shrimp actually have very little nutritional value, i prefer frozen bloodworms, and those can be fed daily. They even cost about the sane. 

Hope i got all the questions, live talking about these guys, come back again soon!! :3


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## Chesh

Thank you! I'm planning on switching to sand once my tank is a bit more established. In the meantime, I'll give him the froggy pellets and see if I can convince him that they ARE food! It's hard to tell if he's even FINDING them, as they kind of get lost in the gravel. I may have to go out and find some frozen bloodworms, just so I know the poor little guy is actually eating something. Once again, I'm bummed out that the pet store people have given me misinformation. *sigh* Also going to get that filter covered in pantyhose, lol, it sounds so silly! So far, he's doing very well and seems happy. I've added more plants to the back of his tank for him to hang out under, and I *think* he may have shed for the first time when he switched to his bigger tank.  How fun!

Thanks again for all of your great information - I'm sure I'll come up with more questions for you as I still have a LOT to learn!



Okay! Lets see if i can do this in short answers.... lol I'm on my phone. 

Sand is best, but typical gravel is good too, as long as the bits are roundly bigger than his head. The larger river rock can shift and trap little legs, so that is no good. 

Pantyhose is a feat filter cover, make sure it is new, and rinse very well in HOT water before use. 

Frog pellets like you have is a good main food, brine shrimp actually have very little nutritional value, i prefer frozen bloodworms, and those can be fed daily. They even cost about the sane. 

Hope i got all the questions, live talking about these guys, come back again soon!! :3 __________________
FRATERNITIES-------


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## Chesh

Got another one for you, oh frog guru!

My ADF is currently housed with a couple of Mollies. They've pretty much ignored him for the most part, but today I noticed the male 'nipping' at him a couple of times. Speckles the Frog just darted off and went about his business, didn't seem to mind very much. I know now that I SHOULD have 2-3 females for every male Molly in the tank, but the pet shop didn't inform me of this at the time, and I accidentally ended up with a couple. I'm not sure if the male is being aggressive, or just mistaking the frog's speckles for food. Do you know anything about this combination of animals? I'm keeping a close eye on it, so far the frog seems perfectly content, he does his zen thing, hangs out around the plants, and comes out in the open when he feels like it - doesn't seem too stressed out about it, but if it's a potential problem, I want to be aware so that I can prepare a new space for the frog if he should need it... advice?


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## Gizmothefreaky

First things first, mollies are happier in brackish water, but to cut down on aggression, i would add more females if you decide to keep them. 

I have a frog right now that is missing a toe from an aggressive platy. ^^;
Just give the frog more hiding places, he should be fine.


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## Chesh

Awww! Poor little guy is missing his toe!  
I DO know that I need to get at least one, if not two more females, but I started this adventure not even knowing about cycling tanks, so until that process is finished, I don't want to add anything else. That's the reason why I'm being so OCD about everything (in case you wondered). I'm trying to backpedal and make sure all of my underwater friends are going to make it through. I've also read up on Mollies, and I really wish I had known about their water quality needs BEFORE I got them, but I don't have a tank big enough to rehome anyone (and don't have room for more than 1, unless I have to move ADF to a little critter keeper to keep him safe) He's got a lot of living plants in there, though, plus his house - hopefully he'll be fine! I don't want any missing little tiny toes! Thanks again!


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## SnowySurface

Chesherca said:


> LOL! Okay... I called and Petsmart ONLY carries the dwarfs *whew* Your first post said:
> 
> "In America and Canada _most large chain shops_ are selling these frogs..."
> 
> You should maybe change that for poor people like me who wander the internet far past their bedtimes and get freaked out! *giggle* I feel better now that he has less of a chance of being sick! Thanks for your speedy reply!


Lucky...I've been cycling one of my 5 gallon tanks for a while now. Petco finally has some ADF in stock and I also see albino ACF a few tanks over. Just went I tought I could get two little ADFs of my own I have to worry even more about them having a fungus infection because Petco does sell both ADF and ACF.

They may have been in seperate tanks, but if both types of frogs came from the same breeder I may still be out of luck. If the PetSmart near my job sells both as well, I may have to admit defeat. T_T


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## Chesh

Oh man! That is so sad!!!  Do you have any local fish shops near you? I visited one earlier today and they had SO many ADF's there, it was unreal - and not one ACF. They even had cute little albino ones - and they had males and females separated. I wish I had shopped here first, as I have no idea what gender my little froggy is! Good luck on your search - I hope you find one, they're really endearing little guys!


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## Chesh

I have another question for my froggy guru (who is probably getting quite tired of me by now!) I've decided to put sand in the bottom of my tank, but the husband insists on BLACK sand. . . doing some research, I've read that the Tahitian Moon Sand is too sharp for ADFs? Is this true? If so, can you recommend any other types of sand that come in black that would be better? Husband also wants Kuhli Loaches at some point, and they like to Burrow, too, so I have to make sure on this one  Thanks a million for sharing so much of your your sage-like wisdom!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Petco sells a good black sand that i would feel safe with. And i keep kuhlis as well, they make fun tank mates. Just gotta make sure they are all eating.


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## Chesh

Thanks again!




SnowySurface said:


> Lucky...I've been cycling one of my 5 gallon tanks for a while now.  Petco finally has some ADF in stock and I also see albino ACF a few tanks over. Just went I tought I could get two little ADFs of my own I have to worry even more about them having a fungus infection because Petco does sell both ADF and ACF.
> 
> They may have been in seperate tanks, but if both types of frogs came from the same breeder I may still be out of luck. If the PetSmart near my job sells both as well, I may have to admit defeat. T_T



Wondering if you had any luck finding an ADF at PetSmart? I really hope you did


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## SnowySurface

Chesherca said:


> Oh man! That is so sad!!!  Do you have any local fish shops near you? I visited one earlier today and they had SO many ADF's there, it was unreal - and not one ACF. They even had cute little albino ones - and they had males and females separated. I wish I had shopped here first, as I have no idea what gender my little froggy is! Good luck on your search - I hope you find one, they're really endearing little guys!


I thought only ACF could be albinos. When I went to Petco I saw ADF in one tank and Albino ACF in another tank. If the Albino frogs were already 2 inches in length then the local pet store does have ACF and ADF at the same time. :-(

I haven't had time to look for ADF since my last post. My laptop battery died on me and it cost $111 to replace. I'm goin to be low on funds for the next 2 weeks. I'm also not done cycling my tank. I think I have another 2 weeks to go before my cycle is complete, so it all balances out.


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## Chesh

I'm new at this, but let me tell you some of what I've learned already. . .

I've seen albino ACF AND albino ADF! If the frogs are already 2 inches in length, they probably _WERE_ ACF, as ADF are usually smaller than that (1.5 inches, though you might see a larger female crack the two inch mark, from what I've read it's not the norm) MINE is even smaller, (but already growing) I guess h/she is still young. You can tell the difference between a CLAWED and a DWARF by looking at their 'hands' The clawed frogs _don't have webbing_ between their 'fingers,' while the _dwarfs have webbing on both their 'hands' AND their 'feet_' Also the clawed frogs have a claw on their foot!

From what I've read elsewhere, PetCO does stock both. But around _HERE _petSMART only has the dwarves. They're a huge chain, so my assumption would be that they all have more or less the same stock, so when you build your funds back up, give them a try. You could always save yourself the trip and call them, too!

Sucks about your laptop. . . but to give you an idea of what you'll spend if you go to PetSMART (I'm sure prices vary by area, but just to give you an idea). my frog cost only $2.99, the pellets also cost $2.99. I have a hard time figuring out if my frog is eating the pellets (they blend in with the gravel, and he's in there with fish), so I don't try to feed them to him very often. This wouldn't be so much of an issue if you have ONLY a frog to feed. If he was getting them every day or every other day, he requires so little to sustain that this small jar would last for months. 

The frozen bloodworms cost around $4 for a frozen packet of 30 little 'cubes' The frog only gets a half of a cube (he probably only NEEDS a quarter of one for the size he is, but again, I have other fish to deal with who steal from him, so I add extra for them) Still $4 for 2 months + of food isn't really a huge expense! I also got frozen brineshrimp (which was recommended by Petsmart employee, but not nearly as nutritious for the frog according to Gizmo the Guru) also for $4. It may not be necessary, but I'm still giving him those from time to time. He really likes both the shrimp AND the bloodworms. 

So, basically, since you already have a tank, you could really get the frog AND enough food for a couple of months for only around $7-$10 dollars! 

I hope that helped you out! You'll have to update when you do finally get your little buddy!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I have actually had albino adf in the past, so they do come in albino, though they are fairly new. 

If it is just your frog in the tank, i say go ahead and get it, but wait three months to add anything else, so as to make sure he/ she isn't sick. 

When feeding pellets, i actually like to wait until the frog is out in the open and drop them right on their head. Lol! 

Also, with those jars of pellets, i have had the same jar for almost a year, and only just now am running out, through several frogs, and also feeding them to my loaches and shrimp. So it will last forever. XD


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## SnowySurface

Thanks. I still have to wait for my cycle to be complete before I add ADF since they are sensitive to ammonia spikes. For now I'm focusing on my laptop. I've looked up videos on youtube and it seems like I can either clean the fan as good as new or replace it for $50. I'm hoping I can save myself $50 by cleaning the fan so the money can go towards my pet fund. XD


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## Gizmothefreaky

Ha ha, yeah. XD good luck with your computer!


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## Chesh

Hello again! Just popping in for a quick update, and an equally quick question! So far so good! Little Speckles is growing well, and eating like a champ. He's even started eating right out of my fingers - and I wasn't trying to get him to. You can imagine how excited I was, lol! Here's a couple of decent shots I got of him last night. . . his color is a bit off, he's a kind of weird greyish-brownish-purplish - super cute!



















So, as you know, I got into this with no clue about aquariums or fish except what the pet shop told me (which was wrong), so my tank has been cycling since I set it up, and my poor creatures have been enduring it very well (doing lots and LOTS of water changes to keep it that way!) The worst bit of the first part of the cycle has passed, and I've been advised to not feed the fish for 3 days to allow the cycle to complete (and not add any extra ammonia while this happens)

I know I can skip a feeding and go every other day, but will little Speckles be okay if I skip feeding for _three days straight_? He's been eating quite well thus far, and is far from starving at this point. I just want to double-check before I do something that might hurt him :-( It's going to be really tough not to feed him - he comes to the glass when he sees my face now. I swear he's begging for a handout!

Thanks again for your advice! It always makes me feel better to learn from someone who knows first-hand!


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## Chesh

** Sorry, I'm only to skip TWO days. Today and tomorrow. . . question still stands, though. I won't skip if it'll cause him harm. Thanks again!


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## Chesh

I know, I KNOW! I'm sorry. . . more questions, and you're the only one who has any answers! Thanks for your patience!
*I checked Petco, and they sell the Tahitian Moon Sand, which is kind of sparkly black, and I've read can be too abrasive. Have you used this with your frogs?
*Do you know of any good books on the care of ADF's specifically? I've been searching, and can't seem to find one.


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## SnowySurface

I use Tahitian sand in my tanks now. So far I haven't noticed it being abbrasive at all. I use my own hands to stir it up to prevent anerobic spots and it feels soft to me. I'm still cycling so I don't have any frogs in my tank yet, but I'm nt worried about it. 

I too have been looking for books. I have a book about betta fish and I found two magazines about bunnies but for the life of me I can't find anything good on ADFs. All of my frog info is from here and a random site. http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/id13.html 

Now onto the cycle question.

The good bacteria needs ammonia as a food source. Starving the tank of ammonia during the stage when the nitrATEs need the most nitrITEs as possible in order to feed and multiple is backwards. You want a constant source of ammonia during every stage of the cycle. When the ammonia stays are 0ppm even when more ammonia is added, then your cycle is complete.

Do not remove your ammonia source in any way unless you want to deplete your nitrITEs and inadvertantly starve your nitrATEs and slow down the time it takes for the cycle to complete. Now, you don't want to let the tank get dirty for the sake of the frogs health. But, you don't want the tank to be too clean or the bacteria will either die off completely or decrease in numbers. Whoever suggested fasting your frogs doesn't realize the ammonia your frogs give off is at the heart of the cycle at every step and the cycle isn't complete until the bacteria can keep the ammonia levels at 0ppm under normal condictions. 

Keep doing what you are doing and you'll be fine. Speckles looks cute in the picture. :3


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## Chesh

I'm sorry, no. . . I've been testing my water constantly, and doing water changes every day throughout this process. . .The bacteria are there now in sufficent levels to enable the ammonia test to drop to zero - but I'm still getting low readings of ammonia and nitrIte levels finally, and the nitrAtes are spiking. I want the ammonia to level out at zero, so he wants me not to introduce any food so that there is less ammonia being produced for 2 days to enable the nitrAtes to 'take hold' and drop the ammonia and nitrItes down to zero. After 2 days with no food/water changes, we'll see were we are, and go back to normal. He really DOES know what he's talking about, I trust him implicitly. It's also a community tank, with several fish (two being mollies, who are sometimes considered 'dirtier' then some) and only one frog. 

I'm just wanting to double-check to make sure the froggy can go for two full days without food!

I've had trouble finding any books on the subject, too, but did find a LOT of great information on this site: 
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/FrogsArtNeale.htm 
That is where I read not to use moon sand, as it can be abrasive. There are so many contrary answers out there! It can be tough to sort through it all!


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## SnowySurface

Oh...I thought the frog was the only one in the tank and the only source of ammonia. 

If you have other fish that are producing ammonia the you will be fine. If the frog was the only source of ammonia then you can cut off the nitrATE's food supply. The rest of the community tank will feed the bacteria while your frog fasts. 

Yeah...I've seen articles that say garvel will kill frogs because they will eat it and get impacted digestive systems. I've seen other articles say that using smooth rocks will kill them if they are small enough for the frog to swallow. I've read articles that say if the rock is too big to swallow it will kill an ADF by cruching it instead of clugging up the digestive system. Then I've read articles that say any gravel will be too sharp and to only use sand. Now there is an article that says sand is too rough unless it's this perticular type of sand. 

I'm going to use the moon sand and see what happens. I will have two bare bottom QT/hospital tanks waiting in the wings incase disater strikes. It's all I can do until people agree on a one good substrate for ADFs.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Omg sorry i havent been on!! Life has hit me like a brick lately. XD 

Yes, he will be fine going without food for two days, but it isnt healthy in the long run to let anything go without food for too long. 

I have never used that sand with frogs, but i have used it with fish, and it was very pretty. I didnt notice any ill efect with the fish, but it was several years ago, so i think better safe than sorry, and go with a less abrasive sand. I know petco sells its own brand of sand that my friends absolutely love with their frogs. I have actually been using sand box play sand for a couple years, and it has anywhere from very fine sand to teeny pebbles in it, and i have never seen a problem. 

Unfortunately i dont know much about the chemistry of a cycle, i actually just kindof let all my tanks cycle on their own. ^^; -bad fish momma- but i never lost a fish in a cycle period. XD

Also, i am a woman, just fyi. X3


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## Chesh

*giggle* I know you're a momma! And thank you for the advice! I also don't know much about cycling, which is why I'm sticking to the advice of someone who does (and happens to be a man, if this was the source of confusion!). But YOU are stuck with being my FROG guru, so I have to double-check! Today is day 2, and if I hadn't heard back from you within the next hour or so I was going to feed him just to play it safe, lol! I know how busy life can get, thank you for taking the time to check in on us here! Your advice is very appreciated!


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## SnowySurface

I went with Tahitian Moon Sand because it is less course than gravel and not made of silica sand. Normally silica sand is very safe but I happen to have envormentally triggered asthma which makes my sensitivity to "safe stuff" sky high. T_T 

However, I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong and did a second search on sand. I found this article on sand in general that explains what most commonly used aquarium sands are made of. It did confirm that pool and play sand are silica based and come covered in silica dust. So those are out of the running. I copied and pasted information about two sands in perticular and bolded parts for enphasis. 

Black Bueaty Sand
Black beauty sand is also used by the sand-blasting industry and can be purchased in home supply stores. It is not naturally occurring sand; *it is powdered iron slag*. The iron will affect the chemistry of your aquarium and this must of course be taken into consideration. *Powdered iron slag can have pretty sharp edges and is therefore not the best choice for species continuously sift sand*. 

Tahitain Moon Sand
Another example of comparatively expensive sand is the beautiful, but costly, black Tahitian moon sand. Black Tahitian moon sand is commonly used to make colourful fish look even more flamboyant in aquariums, since their flashy colouration will contrast sharply against the black sand. *Unlike black beauty, back Tahitian moon sand is* *not made from iron slag*. 

I also found this forum post with pictures of the various sands on Cichlid-forum.com. Up close you can really see how Moon Sand is not has Sharp as Black Bueaty. I have always used acrylic tanks and my old tanks that had gravel substrate have cracks where sharp gravel scraped the sides and bottom of the tank. The Tahitian Moon Sand acrylic tanks do not have those scratches. 

Therefore, since it is very new, I think a lot of people are getting Black Bueaty Sand and Black Tahitian Moon Sand mixed up and Moon Sand actually is soft enough for bottom dewellers. But I'm not naive so I won't stop researching until I find out what Moon Sand is made of. Since it doesn't bother my asthma, my money is on clay or really, really crushed gravel. -_-


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## Chesh

Thanks for the info! I'm still SUCH a novice that sand in the first place is a bit frightening! I'm planning on cycling a 10 gallon tank (as opposed to the 30 gallon tank that is currently inhabited) and 'practicing' with sand in general, as I know it's more difficult to deal with than gravel. Being brand new to ALL of this stuff, I'd rather practice on an empty tank and avoid any damage to life forms AND filters before I commit to the entire tank. Thinking that at some point in the future I'll rehome the ADF to a 10 gallon tall corner tank and give him the best sand possible, and use the TMSand on the main tank. Still undecided, still researching. . .

Did you ever check into PetSmart to see if they had ADFs and no ACFs? I'm so excited for you to get a little froggy of your own! I'm so in love with mine!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oooh, now i understand. XD Okay then. 

Good luck with the sand!! I hope all goes well.


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## SnowySurface

Actually no. ^_^; I've forgotten how much work it is to start up a cycle so I've been distracted both of my 5 gallon tanks for the past week. I'm also debating adding a floating plant and moss ball just for the fun of it. So I've been too focused on the tanks to think about the ADFs and bettas that will go in them. XD

I'm going to check this Saturday since I want 2 frogs and still plan on QT for about a month before I put both frogs together. I also think I'm going to close up the section where my filter hangs with some mesh. There used to be plastic that narrowed the opening but it broke off at some point. The gap never bugged me with my bettas, but I think ADF can jump a bit better. 

The other tank is going to be for a king betta. I've always had regular sized bettas so I think it would be kind of cool to have a king betta for a change. But I'm going to get him closer to when the tanks are cycled. He's solo so I'm just going to toss him unless he has something obviously wrong with him. 

Then one day, in a distant future, I'm going to actually start the 20 gallon long NPT tank I've been thinking about. That may be a sorority or non-betta community tank. I'm still not sure. 

Yet again, I am plagued with more ideas than I have money and space. XD


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## Chesh

SnowySurface said:


> Yet again, I am plagued with more ideas than I have money and space. XD


Hooo, boy! Do I know that feeling well! Can't wait to see when you have everything ready to go!


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## SnowySurface

Random Update time. 

So originally I was going to have 1 betta in 1 5 gallon, 2 ADF in the other 5 gallon, and a sorority in my new 20 gallon tank. So needless to say I've been doing research into sororities and ADFs. Of course after buying the tank, the more I read about sororities, the less motivated I feel about starting one. I still want to make a 20 gallon long NPT, so the tank wasn't a waste of money or anything. There will be live plants in there whether the live plants want to be under my care or not. :lol:

However, I'm not 100% sure I want to fill a 20 gallon tank with 8-9 female bettas. I'm more inclined to do 5-6 bettas in a 15 gallon long tank. But I don't have a 15 gallon tank. I have a 20 gallon tank I was able to afford because it was on sale. So, I'm setting up the 20 gallon as planned but I now have no idea what will keep the plants company. :roll: 

Which leads me to the reason for this update. Now that my computer is working well enough to last me another year, my spare money can be directed towards pets again. If I went with 1 betta in each of my 5 gallons and made the 20 gallon for an ADF community, what can go in a tank with ADFs? 8 ADFs and 1 betta sounds silly to me even if it wouldn't over tax the bioload. Is there a schooling fish that goes well with 3 - 4 ADFs in a 20 gallon?


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## Chesh

I'm a newbie aquarist, so I'm not really the one to answer this question. But from personal experience, I can say that mine lived with a school of neon tetras, who left him entirely alone, and also with a handful of guppies, who also got along fine with him. Hornwort is a great plant to help with cycling, and also grows like a weed, is very inexpensive, and requires very little care (when it gets too long, just snip off the top and you have another bunch of 'new' plants for the tank). My ADF loves it, as did the other little fish that lived in there with him. I even have 2 Mollies and had no trouble with the frog. I think you'd be alright with any peaceful schoolers here. . . hang on for a more expert opinion, of course.

HOWEVER, again in my experience, it can be quite difficult to make sure the frog gets enough food without over feeding the fish! They're slow eaters, and I pretty much feed Speckle by hand most of the time - but even so, it's quite impossible to keep bloodworms or brine shrimp from floating away and into the mouths of other fishies. . . so I'm not sure if a small school of fish would really be a fantastic choice, since they might get too much food, and you'd really HAVE to be very careful to make sure froggy gets enough. Most people say that 'species only' tanks are best, and I can see why now that I've had my frog for a month in the main tank. His 5 gallon tank should arrive any day now, and in the future I may consider a single betta, but it will be SO much easier to keep frogs alone. Another option you might want to consider is getting one of those screened dividers for your tank, either for feeding time, or so that you can have 5-10 gallons for the frog(s) only, and the other side for fishies  They're about $10 at PetSmart.

Yet another thing to consider is that whenever you get a new creature, it's advised to keep them quarantined for 4-6 weeks so that they don't spread sickness to the rest of the tank. If you don't HAVE a quarrantine tank, it might be a good idea to get all the frogs you want to keep at the same time and from the same tank. . .

But I'm still a total newbie, so I'll be watching to see what our resident expert has to say on this


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## Gizmothefreaky

I think it is wonderful what you have chosen to do!

In my own experiance i have done guppies, platies, and neon tetras, as well as bettas with frogs, and when you establish a routine with feeding it becomes really easy to make sure that everyone gets food. I even have them with khuli loaches, and everyone is fat and happy. 

However, everyone has their own ways and their own luck. So you need to make your own choices in this. Pretty much any fish that isnt nippy will be good with ADFs, but fish that breed a lot will have their fry eaten, so be warned. XD


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## djembekah

In my 29 high, i'm hoping to do a betta, 6 cories, 6 blue pearl shrimp, 6 harlequin rasboras, 6 tetras, and possibly 2 ADFs. would the ADFs get along okay with the bottom feeders? i feel like i read something where they may not be


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## Gizmothefreaky

djembekah said:


> In my 29 high, i'm hoping to do a betta, 6 cories, 6 blue pearl shrimp, 6 harlequin rasboras, 6 tetras, and possibly 2 ADFs. would the ADFs get along okay with the bottom feeders? i feel like i read something where they may not be


To start that tank is very overstocked, th tetras and rasboras will nip endlessly at your betta, and the betta will likely eat the shrimp. The cories will probably eat all of the frogs food too, so in short, no. That setup will not work, I'm sorry.


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## djembekah

i've had tons of people me that that stocking plan is fine.
pre-frog idea.


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## Gizmothefreaky

djembekah said:


> i've had tons of people me that that stocking plan is fine.
> pre-frog idea.


That idea is fine, sans betta and frogs. But don't believe the expert, i am just sharing my knowledge for free. :/

Do what you like, just remember you came here asking for my opinion.


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## djembekah

you're right thank you


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## Gizmothefreaky

Good luck with your tank.


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## djembekah

ty


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## LionCalie

I got two ADF's today. It looks like I have a male and female pair. I added them to my cycled 10 gallon that houses my big "King" Plakat boy, Brutus. The only problem is he keeps nipping at them! So far there has been no damage done, which is surprising since at one point he had a leg in his mouth. :-(

He started to lose interest over time, I was watching very closely to remove him if he got too violent. I have a few other males that I can try in the tank if Brutus proves to be too aggressive. Since it's late and I didn't feel comfortable leaving them in the tank overnight without supervision I placed a divider in the tank. I will try again in the morning. 

This is just my luck. :roll:


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh my goodness! Yes, keep an eye on them. lol! 
The betta may calm down after a while, but it is best to be able to keep an eye on them for a while, so good idea putting in the divider. 
Keep me updated!


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## Chesh

Hello! I wanted to stop in and give you all an update on the drama that's been going on over here, and ask for advice. . .

On the 7th of March, I fed my fish and frog as usual at around 7 in the morning. Watched them for a while, then got involved in the morning rush with my family, and didn't get back to check on my friends until around 12:30pm. When I did, I was very alarmed to see that the oval 'strainer' part at the bottom of the filter (which had been covered in nylon mesh - didn't do any good here!) had _completely fallen off and into the tank._ Speckles the frog was nowhere to be seen.









I found him INSIDE of the filter box. He was out of the flow of the water, clinging desperately to the inside wall, and was not looking very happy. I dumped him immediately back into the tank. I don't know how long he was there, could have been moments, could have been hours. 

At first, I thought his leg might be broken, but after further observation, I now think his limbs are sound. I don't know if he has suffered any internal damage, but he was definitely stressed beyond belief. He had gone VERY pale, almost white, and his skin was obviously in bad shape, and looked like damaged patches kind of flaking away from his body. He was very weak, and having trouble swimming. He was still managing to get up to the top of the tank (18" tall) for air, but he was unable to swim in a direct line. Looked like he was kind of floating and unable to control his movements. He was flipping from side to side on his way to the top, and even on the opposite side of the 30" long tank, I could see that he was being drawn toward the filter (which had been fixed). The only obvious WOUND that I could see was that the webbing on one of his back flippers has been torn.

I moved him, along with a boatload of Hornwort plants into my 10 gallon 'hospital tank,' which is in a dark and quiet room of the house (inhabited by 4 female guppies to keep it cycled). I dosed the tank with Stress Coat, turned the hood lights off, and observed him quietly while scouring the internet (and the chat room here) for help. He was still very pale, and not swimming well, and was having trouble with the very low filter on the 10 gallon tank - even after I planted a jungle of hornwort around it to baffle the flow a bit, he would get sucked in and _stuck to the filter_ from halfway across the tank. I turned the filter entirely off for the rest of the afternoon, and added a bubbler, instead. I attempted to feed him periodically, but he refused to eat. I gently placed him on the top of a floating bunch of hornwort, so that he was close to the water line and didn't have to swim up for air. He rested in that spot for several hours.

By around 8:30 that evening he was looking MUCH better. He was back down at the bottom of the tank, swimming much more strongly, and was somewhat active again - though still refusing food, and still very weak. His skin was still flaky looking, though his color had almost entirely returned. I ran to the petstore and got a divider screen to put in the tank to keep him far away from the filter overnight, just in case he continued to have issues with it, and switched it back on. At around midnight, I offered him a couple of bloodworm bits, but he refused them. I left them in the tank overnight, and they were gone in the morning. The guppies were on the other side of the tank, so they didn't eat them 

By day 2 he was looking even better, and I finally got him to eat at around noon. Just a couple of bites, but it made me feel better! His color was 100% back to normal, though his skin was still flaky, and there were no signs of redness or inflammation around the broken webbing or anywhere else on his body. I kept the lights off for the day, just to give him peace.

On day 3, he was eating and swimming perfectly normally. I turned on one of the two lights in the tank (on the other side of his divider, so his side was still dark) and at midnight I got to see him shed his damaged skin. The next morning I put the lights back on as normal and removed the divider.

Now, a week later, he is perfectly back to his old self! I still have him in the 10 gallon tank, but he's having no trouble with the filter or swimming and is eating and swimming and zenning out like he always has. The only visible evidence of his traumatic ordeal is that his flipper is still torn, and he has a short white stripe on his back. I'm not sure what this is, maybe scarring or damage that extended beneath the skin he shed initially. I'll be watching to see if it fades with the next shed.

I'm posting this here to get your take on it, and also in the hopes that it might help anyone who is in a similar situation, frantically searching the internet for help on what to do. If you can add any further advice on what I SHOULD have done differently, please do, in the hopes that it can help someone else, someday - and me should something like this ever happen again (I hope not!)!!

Anyway, just wanted to check in and get this out there!!! I hope all is well with you froggy ladies *luffs*


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh my goodness! What an ordeal. I am so clear your kiddo is alright! O.O that was scary to read. 

I say you did a wonderful job! I would have only found one thing different, and that would be too have placed him in a breeder box at the surface of the water, so here wouldn't have to fight so hard to get to the surface. I have a frog right now that is missing a whole toe and webbing on the back foot, and he does just wonderful. :3


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## Chesh

Thanks for the advice! I was actually in search of a breeder box for him when I went to the store and found the divider. By that point he was already doing so much better, that I thought the divider would work better - just to ease my mind overnight.  NOW I have baby Mollies, and also a breeder box. VERY good advice for anyone who ever ends up with an injured frog. . . you think it was scary to READ? I was SO upset. . .I couldn't even think straight! Terrible day, glad he's through his ordeal, and I hope that this page pops up should anyone else ever go through something similar. There is literally NO information out there (not easily found, anyway) on what to do in case of a disaster. Really not very much regarding care in general. Glad I've found this awesome little thread - thanks for keeping it up for people like me


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## Gizmothefreaky

You are so very welcome! I love to help. 

I think the hard part about frogs is they are so curious, and not very good swimmers, so they get themselves into quite a bit of trouble. 


Also, on a bit of a side note, you can always tell when i am making a post from my phone because it is full of typos... XD compare this one to the last one and you will see what i mean.


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## LionCalie

When I woke up this morning both of the frogs were chilling on other side of the divider! Somehow they managed to squeeze through. Thankfully they are both fine. Brutus, however, still thinks their little feet are food and I'm concerned about him stressing them out. :-(

On a happier note, here are some pictures!


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## Chesh

Haha! CUTE shots! I hope they do well together, and Brutus learns to learn his manners! Poor little froggy toes!


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## LionCalie

Hehe, thanks! :lol:

So Brutus has pretty much lost interest in the Frogs, or has finally discovered that he cannot eat their feet. However, I have encountered a new problem now... he eats any food I give them! It doesn't matter if he just ate a bunch of frozen bloodworms beforehand. He still scans the bottom, eating anything I leave for the poor Frogs. 

:shake:

I'm starting to believe that to truly thrive they are best having their own tank. I have a 5.5 gallon tank in storage that I'm considering transforming into ADF heaven. It seems like my best option.


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## Chesh

hehe, yeah. I have this problem, too  I've come to the same conclusion, and am cycling a 5 gallon for my ADF. Still considering eventually putting a betta in there, but I haven't decided on that! In the meantime, I've had some luck hand-feeding my frog. It didn't take him very long to start swimming over to my fingertips to get fed. However. . . it depends on the type of food I'm giving him. Brine shrimp tend to float off all over the place, while bloodworms are much easier to keep ahold of. Many people use turkey basters to 'hand' feed their frogs. I didn't have much luck with this, but it might be worth giving it a try? Also, using a screened divider during feeding time works well. When my frog was housed with larger mollies, I got a special little 'house' for him from PetSmart - here's a picture:









And what it looks like in a 10g tank, to give you an idea of scale 










If I put the food in the house, the bigger fish pretty much leave it alone while the frog is eating. Though they CAN get into it, it takes them some effort, because it's too small, and they tend to leave it alone. I also feed the fish on the top of the opposite side of the tank while the frogs eat at the bottom. Since my frog is now living with guppy room-mates, the house doesn't work anymore 

Either way, I'm REALLY glad that he's stopped eating their adorable little toes, and I know they'll be super happy in their froggy paradise, if that's the direction you decide to go!


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## Gizmothefreaky

What adorable pictures both of you!!  I wish i could get such clear shots of my froggies. ^^; I am good with pictures of the bettas, but little else. 

Glad that your betta has stopped nomming toes! What a relief. Maybe now you can stop worrying. XD


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## Chesh

*FANTASTIC NEWS regarding the Chytrid fungus, treatment options, and PetSmart!!!*

I'm not sure if I mentioned on here that I've tried to contact PetSmart on the corporate level regarding their practices regarding the chytrid fungus and the frogs that they sell. I thought I had reached a dead-end, but I got a call from their corporate veterinarian - Dr. Nick St.Urn.

He seems to be a very knowledgeable person, very aware of the chytrid fungus, and well versed in the condition, signs, and treatment of it, and claims to have given many lectures over the last few years on this condition and how to treat it to veterinarians and pet stores to increase awareness of this awful disease.

He says that ALL FROGS SOLD FROM PetSmart come from a _single_ breeder. They are tested for chytrid and Salmonella at least two times _BEFORE EVER REACHING THE STORE!_ If they test positive, the entire 'batch' is immediately treated, then tested again.

Dr. Nick says that this has been the practice since the problem first came to his attention several years ago, and_ at that time_ the frogs sold by PetSmart were, in fact, infected - according to their tests. Since then, they have taken great care to ensure that their livestock is tested multiple times, and treated if necessary before it ever reaches the store level!

First the breeder tests them, and he is being audited by PetSmart staff on a continuous basis to ensure the health of their livestock. Additionally, they test ALL of the ADFs at their testing and distribution center _AGAIN_ before sending them off to local shops for sale. He pulled the reports for the most recent 'batch' and claims that there were _NO_ infected frogs, and that the breeder has been doing a fantastic job keeping his stock fungus-free.

Their frogs are treated with Benzalkonium chloride - not something that I can easily lay my hands on should the need arise, I suspect. . . but he did offer me several other methods of treatment, These are very simple, actually, and I wanted to share them here, in the hopes that they can help others.

First, let me try to explain the effects of the virus as it was explained to me, and as I have come to understand it through my research. (forgive me if any of this is a bit off!) This fungus lives by consuming the Keratin in the frog's skin, which causes the skin to grow thicker and makes it more difficult (and eventually impossible) for the animal to breathe through it's skin. But ADF's can also take air from the surface, so while this may make them uncomfortable,_ they_ aren't dying due to lack of oxygen. The side-effect of the thickening skin that is deadly to ADF's is that the frogs electrolytes pass through their skin. The lack of Keratin caused by the fungus, and the subsequent skin-thickening makes it increasingly impossible for the frog to regulate it's internal electrolytes, causing a build-up of potassium, sodium, and other electrolyte salts. This build up makes their hearts beat very irregularly, and ultimately - stop. 

Should a pet frog get have this fungus, the_ first_ thing to do is soak them in an electrolyte solution. This is treating the symptom, not the cause, but it will keep the frogs alive while treatment is being given.
He recommended soaking them in an electrolyte solution (while monitoring them) for 30 minutes 2-3 times daily to ease their discomfort greatly and 'fix' the problems that the virus causes temporarily - offering the frog some relief. He recommended lactated ringers as the best option. If unable to find them, saline 0.9% solution will also be very beneficial (both of these should be easily available to the public at a medical supply store, and even some chain pharmacies carry these.)

To treat the disease itself, he said betadyne can be used (I didn't get the details on this), but the EASIEST WAY TO TREAT CHYTRID FUNGUS AT HOME is simply to raise the temperature in the tank. The Chytrid fungus lives and grows best in temperatures up to around 25 Celsius (which is 77 degrees or thereabouts - he said there's a bit of give-or-take in this number). The fungus CAN NOT LIVE in temperatures higher than 'normal' aquarium temperatures. He recommended heating the tank to 32c (which is 89.6f) for a period of 96 hours (4 days). He says that it is a temperature that _is_ too warm for the frogs, but that if they are closely monitored, keeping them at this temperature for four days should not kill them, though they won't appreciate it. This temperature treatment will kill the virus in the tank and on the frog, so no re-contamination should be able to occur. You must be very careful when treating with the heat method to disinfect the lid of the aquarium both before and after treatment, and also to be sure that the water is right up to the rim of the tank, or the fungus will still remain in these places, and reinfect the tank and the frog.

I've been in touch with the person who wrote this article on the Chytrid fungus (which is linked on the first page of this post), and he agrees that the information given to me by the veterinarian is sound, though he's had far better luck curing infected frogs at home using the Lamisil treatment. This medication is very easy to find over-the-counter in US pharmacies (though unfortunately is not available in Canada) Specifics can be found by following the link, and I've read many, many testimonies stating that this treatment has worked brilliantly in curing pet ADF's from this killer fungus. The biggest problem is keeping everything sterilized and thoroughly dried between treatments, to prevent re-infection, as this fungus is very difficult to kill.

Another bit of VERY useful information to keep in mind when dealing with a Chytrid outbreak is that once the frog is removed, the fungus will _NOT_ be gone from any damp or wet areas until a quarantine period of 3 months has passed. Should you have removed your sick frog for treatment, or if it has died, the frog's tank, water, and other inhabitants (fish, snails, etc) will still be able to transfer the fungus until three months has passed without a frog in residence. Be sure to be VERY careful when disposing of dirty tank water that an affected frog has been living in, as it would be very easy to introduce this deadly fungus to your local area by dumping it in the garden, etc. It is recommended to add bleach to such water before disposing of it down a drain, where it can possibly can come in contact with other aquatic frogs, and never dump Chytrid-infected water in the yard!

One thing that I forgot to ask the Doctor when I had him on the line was what had been done at a _STORE LEVEL_ to disinfect the tanks that had carried infected frogs in the past. I'm going to try to get in touch with him again in regards to that, but on the whole I'm feeling fairly confident that my PetSmart frog is NOT infected, and that PetSmart has taken great strides over the last few years in the way they care for their frogs, and have been making all attempts possible to ensure that the livestock they sell will come to their customers fungus-free.


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## Chesh

*** Sorry for the book, guys! I felt that it was important stuff that belongs on this thread. . . Hope it helps someone someday!


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## Gizmothefreaky

That is amazing news!! I hadnt been able to find much info on that, so i must thank you for getting it!! I wish there was a way to put this on the front page. lol!


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## LionCalie

Wow! Thank you very much for sharing all that information, Chesherca. :yourock:

Update on my ADF adventures: 

I took Brutus out of the 10 gallon. He went back in his 5 gallon, which he is perfectly happy being in. The froggies became so much more active with him gone. I've been hand feeding them frozen bloodworms... so adorable! 

I did research on what kind of fish would make good tank mates for ADF's. There was a really great website I found dedicated to their care specifically. They stated Guppies and Oto cats were the best choices. So I went to our LFS and got 3 gorgeous male Fancy Guppies. I also got one juvenile Oto cat, mostly because the 10 gallon gets a lot of brown algae, so plenty to eat. 

So far so good!


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## dramaqueen

Fantastic info, Chesherca. I would love to get a couple of ADF's but I'm not sure if I could keep them alive.


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## Chesh

Heehee, thanks gals! I'm glad I didn't totally bore you with my enormous post! Gizmo, your first page is perfect just the way it is! Without it, I'd never have started researching on the fungus in the first place! Hopefully, just because it's here, it will be more likely to come up when people are searching for help. I know I've had dismal luck trying to find information online regarding these adorable little froggies, not just on Chytrid, but care in general. Even on forums dedicated to frogs, info on the African Dwarfs seems to be sparse. Not sure why, as they're so commonly available in pet-shops. :dunno:


Dramaqueen, I'm a _COMPLETE_ aquarium novice. Everything from cycling, to fish, to frogs is a totally new world to me right now. I've been learning - as much and as quickly as I can, and have kept not only my fish, but my little frog alive for _two whole months_ *CHEERS* (yes, this IS amazing!), and brought them all safely through an accidental fish-in cycling process (I didn't KNOW! *cries*). Not only that, but poor Speckles also survived a very traumatic mishap with my aquarium filter while he was living in the community tank. All this to say. . . believe me, if _*I*_ can keep one alive, you can totally rock it! They're actually not that difficult, though they do require a bit of specialized care. . . but then, so do many fish! If you love them, have one! You'll be glad you did - they're fantastic little pets!

Calie, I'm so glad that your froggies are happier with Brutus out of the way! Isn't hand-feeding so _FUN!_? It can get tedious when you HAVE to do it every day to keep the guppies at bay, but I was sooooo super excited the first time Speckles swam right over to my hand and started chowing down. *luffs* I just finally got my Speckles into his 5 gallon aquarium FROM the 10 gallon with 4 guppies, lol! I'm doing it in reverse. . . good luck with your newest babies, and keep us posted on how they're all doing!


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## djembekah

i am really enjoying this thread, even though i'm re-planning and re-planning my stocking plan xD maybe i wont have them in my 29 gallon, but i am totally interested in having ADFs.

Someone told me recently that they are happiest in, like, schools? of 8+? is that true? i know people have been and ARE very successful keeping them alone or in pairs, but do they like a community of their own species?


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## Gizmothefreaky

LionCalie said:


> Wow! Thank you very much for sharing all that information, Chesherca. :yourock:
> 
> Update on my ADF adventures:
> 
> I took Brutus out of the 10 gallon. He went back in his 5 gallon, which he is perfectly happy being in. The froggies became so much more active with him gone. I've been hand feeding them frozen bloodworms... so adorable!
> 
> I did research on what kind of fish would make good tank mates for ADF's. There was a really great website I found dedicated to their care specifically. They stated Guppies and Oto cats were the best choices. So I went to our LFS and got 3 gorgeous male Fancy Guppies. I also got one juvenile Oto cat, mostly because the 10 gallon gets a lot of brown algae, so plenty to eat.
> 
> So far so good!


Only thing i can add to that is otos are schooling fish, so get a few more, and you should be good! :3




dramaqueen said:


> Fantastic info, Chesherca. I would love to get a couple of ADF's but I'm not sure if I could keep them alive.


Frogs are easy!! XD Its the bettas that give me the most trouble. lol!



Chesherca said:


> Heehee, thanks gals! I'm glad I didn't totally bore you with my enormous post! Gizmo, your first page is perfect just the way it is! Without it, I'd never have started researching on the fungus in the first place! Hopefully, just because it's here, it will be more likely to come up when people are searching for help. I know I've had dismal luck trying to find information online regarding these adorable little froggies, not just on Chytrid, but care in general. Even on forums dedicated to frogs, info on the African Dwarfs seems to be sparse. Not sure why, as they're so commonly available in pet-shops. :dunno:


Yeah, that is some of the same things i was running into... I joined a frog specific forum, and still noone knew anything about them. bleh. 



djembekah said:


> i am really enjoying this thread, even though i'm re-planning and re-planning my stocking plan xD maybe i wont have them in my 29 gallon, but i am totally interested in having ADFs.
> 
> Someone told me recently that they are happiest in, like, schools? of 8+? is that true? i know people have been and ARE very successful keeping them alone or in pairs, but do they like a community of their own species?


I am so glad you are enjoying the thread!! :3 Keep us updated on the tank. 

They will be happy with any number you put them with, be it one or eight. They are playfull, so the more the merrier. lol! They will play and chase and maybe even sing. It is all up to you how many you get.


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## Chesh

*PICTURE TIME! (indulge me)*

He's just so DARN cute, I can't help myself! So here's some pictures of little Speckle enjoying his first meal in his new 5 gallon tank. If you look at his back left flipper, you can see where the webbing is torn  The good news is that it doesn't seem to be bothering him in the slightest bit!

Enjoy!


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## djembekah

Oh my gosh, Speckle is the CUTEST thing. I love him


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol how cute!!!


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## LionCalie

Gizmothefreaky said:


> Only thing i can add to that is otos are schooling fish, so get a few more, and you should be good! :3


Ugh, of course the websites I found when researching didn't mention that. They are definitely schooling fish though. Sadly, if I add anymore my tank will be overstocked, according to the aquarium stocking calculator I use. :|

Chesherca- Amazing pictures!!! Speckle is too cute. :lol:


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## Chesh

heehee, thanks! I think he's the cutest thing to ever live underwater!



LionCalie said:


> Ugh, of course the websites I found when researching didn't mention that. They are definitely schooling fish though. Sadly, if I add anymore my tank will be overstocked, according to the aquarium stocking calculator I use. :|


That is a total bummer! Are you able to return him to the fish store? Most have at least a 48-hour return policy  

Good luck keeping those guppies slender and not overfed! Mine have gotten so fat since Speckle was rooming with them in the hospital tank. They aren't getting any food for TWO days! ;-)


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah, i tried to keep otos once, but they were in single settings, and they never did well... ^^; You could probably get away with a couple more if you upped your water changes and the size of your filter.


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## LionCalie

I went ahead and took the Oto cat back to the LFS since they don't do well alone. Thankfully the fish store was more than happy to take the fish back and they apologized for not mentioning they don't do well at all when alone. So that was good.

My female frog decided to shed today! I was concerned at first because she was rubbing on everything, for reasons unknown. Then I noticed the shed skin coming off her hindquarters. I will admit it looked kinda gross, but I still found the process fascinating.


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## Chesh

haha! It IS disturbing to watch the first time. . . it's a fairly violent process. I had the same reaction as you did, then I couldn't stop watching until it was said and done! Glad you were able to bring the fish back to the shop without any trouble!


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## Gizmothefreaky

My frogs even eat their shedded skin sometimes, its gross, but pretty funny. XD


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## LionCalie

So... I have ADF eggs! :shock: 

I've been reading about raising them and it sounds like even experienced keepers have a lot of difficultly. They are definitely fertilized... I don't know what to do! If I should attempt to raise them or not.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh wow!! Congratulations!! I don't have any experience raising them, and the people who i know that have tried, haven't done well either. :/ Sorry!


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## Chesh

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOOOOOL! *ish excited*

I would totally at least have to give it a try!

There is a Yahoo group. . . 
DwarfAfricanFrogs : Dwarf African Frogs
I hate the format of Yahoo groups, but these guys know a LOT about these little froggies, and I'm sure you can get a lot of RELIABLE information about how to keep them alive from them if you post your questions. 

I DO know that if left, the parents will make short work of those eggs (dinner) so you have to decide QUICKLY! Looks like you've got some happy, healthy frogs there! I'm so excited for you! Please try! I wanna see some TADPOLES!!!! *luffs*

Good luck, and keep us posted!


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## LionCalie

Thanks for the link to the yahoo group! I've been trying to find a place to talk about ADFs that is actually active. 

You will be happy to know I am going to attempt to hatch and raise them, but I don't know how successful I will be. I scooped the eggs into a betta cup and used a turkey baster to collect any stray eggs. I faced the dilemma of not having an extra heater, so I'm just floating the cup in the frogs tank.

Today I have noticed a change. They appear to have some kind of sack or something around them. I'm not sure if this is normal or if they are dead/rotting? The dark spot appears to have darkened and spread also. I was planning on moving them into a heated 2.5 gallon when they hatch and feed them Liquifry #1 until they are big enough to eat baby brime shrimp. 

Here is today's picture, I hope they are doing okay:


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## Chesh

I just think this is SO cool! Getting them out of the main tank was a great idea, or they'd be dinner by now, I'm sure. I hope they're okay in there. . . I wonder if water circulation will be a problem? Maybe a breeder box would be a better idea? But I really have no idea! I'm glad you joined the group. . . It's an odd format, but from my experience several of the people on there know a lot about these little guys, and I really hope some of them can help you! It will be so _NEAT_ if you end up with teeeeeeeny tiny ADFs! THEN what will you do with them!!? Hrm, where do you live? I wonder how well tadpoles ship? ;-)


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## Olympia

Oh wow. Can you see them moving?
I remember I tried to raise shrimp eggs artificially once and it was a total fail. You have to keep them in a high current to keep them oxygenated. I'd try a breeder box, maybe put some pantyhose over the holes if the eggs could slip through.


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## LionCalie

Sadly, it looks like they are covered in water mold. May have been the lack of aeration or it could have spread from the unfertilized eggs. I highly doubt they are going to hatch but I will wait a while longer before tossing them.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh dear! That is so sad, ink sorry it doesn't seem to have worked out for you.. maybe you will get a second chance.  here's hoping!!


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## Olympia

I was worried about that too. If you want to try and set up a spawn tank, I'd get some red cherry shrimp.. They'll help eat dead/rotten eggs but don't bug healthy eggs. Some people also put in anti fungal meds for fish, but I don't think frogs do well with fish medicine, right?


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## Chesh

Aww, I'm sorry, hun! But chin up! You have a mating pair of ADF's, I'm SURE you'll get another try - and this time you'll be better prepared! 

On the brighter side, at least you know that they must be awfully happy with the care you're giving them - you've only had them for a minute, and they're already trying to have babies! Good work in taking excellent care of your critters! 

I'm still holding out hope for those tadpoles in the mail someday!:angel:


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## Mankey

I have 1 Betta and 3 Bronze Cory Catfish in my 10 gallon tank. Would I be able to keep an ADF?


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## freemike

Mankey said:


> I have 1 Betta and 3 Bronze Cory Catfish in my 10 gallon tank. Would I be able to keep an ADF?



My experience is that this would require hand feeding or direct feeding of the frogs via an instrument such as tweezers. In the community tank by the time my frogs realized the food was in the tank it was gone. I would then have to hand feed them. I had to do this while their tank was getting set up. I only had two at the time and they both began trusting me quite well by the third day and I still occasionally hand feed the guys.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yes, i agree with freemike, unless you want to hand feed, ADFs and cories shouldn't be housed together because the frogs will starve to death.


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## Mankey

Feeding with tweezers shouldn't be a problem. I still have some from when I had Fire-Bellied Toads. I was more wondering about whether or not it would be too much for my tank to handle. I'm also planning on getting a Pennywort plant soon, in case it matters.

I was also wondering about how to get food for them. Does it have to be alive, or can I buy it in Petco (or small pet stores)?


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## freemike

I've been feeding mine frozen brine shrimp and blood worms. According to aqadvisor.com you could add a frog and still only be like 73% stocked.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Frozen brine shrimp have no nutritional value. Best to feed frog pellets and bloodworms, i also feed beefheart.


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## freemike

What about live white worms?


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## Gizmothefreaky

I haven't tried them, lol, i don't have them available to me where i live. I am sure, because they are live, that they will be fine, but do continue to feed bloodworms and frog pellets.


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## Mankey

I went to Petco today and the only bloodworms I was able to find were freeze-dried. Is there any kind of food I can get for them at Petco, or would I have to find live food at a small store?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Petsmart should have frozen bloodworms in their freezer where the mice on ice are. They also have the frog and tadpole sinking pellets. They also sell a complete food packed in gell. Petco should have the same selection i believe.


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## Tikibirds

petco should have bloodworms in a fridge. It took me like a year before I realized they carried frozen food. Do a good check of the whole store, as mine kept them kinda hidden in a corner by the tank with the live plants for sale. Another petco had them in the reptile section


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## Mankey

Hopefully this is the last question, since it feels like I'm asking too many. Will I have to keep the bloodworms in a freezer/fridge so they can be edible? If I do, do I keep it in a fridge or freezer?


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## Olympia

Frozen bloodworms must be kept frozen until use (much like frozen meat and such). It shouldn't stink up your freezer if that's what you're worried about :d


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## Mankey

I'm not worried about the stink. I'm worried about my family minding a bunch of worms inside the freezer.


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## Olympia

LOL, tell them that if it was a snake there'd be rats in the freezer 
The box is small and inconspicuous, maybe they won't notice xD


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## Mankey

Apparently they seemed more okay about the freezer thing. I may even end up getting my own mini-fridge (or it's going to be given to my brother, like it was originally supposed to be).

Thanks for the help, guys. Hopefully that's the end of my questions.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh please, don't feel bad about asking questions! We are here to help! :3


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## Mankey

I've got another question. Does it matter whether I get a larger one, or a smaller (most likely younger) one? I saw some small ones at a pet store and really wanted one, but didn't know if it was different


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## Gizmothefreaky

No, it doesn't really matter, as long as you try to get them at about the same age so they don't fight.


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## Olympia

I think baby frogs need to be fed more often than older frogs, right?


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## Mankey

So basically the only difference would be feeding them more often? The size of the bloodworms wouldn't matter, right?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Not really. Lol not unless your bloodworms are massive. XD


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## Mankey

Okay, Thank you. I can now almost guarantee you that this won't be my last question. I may not realize it now, but there's still more I have to know.


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## BettaMiah

I just wanted to give an update on my little guy, Dj

He is doing awesome! He is really fattened up now and gosh he is like a little rocket! He loves to zoom around an sing and hop and explore! He looks visibly better than when I got him, he is a well filled out little guy. Thank you so much for your help Gizmo! 

Oh yeah, I got a hermit crab, and his name is Gizmo! Hehe.


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## dramaqueen

Lol. My mom would absolutely DIE if she saw frozen rats in our freezers. Lol


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## BettaMiah

My mom would never allow frozen rats to get in her freezer. O.e


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## Mankey

I return with a question! I bought myself a frog today, along with some frozen blood worm cubes. So... do I take out one whole cube, feed as much as I have to, then put the rest back? Or do I only take out parts of a cube? Then how do I keep the rest from spilling out?

Also, would it have been better if I got some non-frozen live blood worms?


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## Chesh

I don't know about frozen vs live, though I'm sure others can advise. I assume that fresh is more nutritious, but you also might run a higher risk of live foods bringing diseases into the tank? I'm not sure!

I feed frozen, and I cut the cube into 1/2 or 1/4 - depending on how much the frog/fish need and put the rest back into the freezer BEFORE IT HAS DEFROSTED with aluminum foil on top  Any leftovers that have been defrosted get thrown away - can't re-freeze. 

Congrats on your new froggy!


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## SpookyTooth

Thank you for starting up this thread  I've been reading up on ADFs lately and have decided I'd like to get a pair in a few weeks (too much going on right now, want to make sure they have my full attention). I haven't read every page of this topic yet (it's 10:30pm and I'm sleeeeeppy) but I do have a couple of questions if I may?

I've read so many sources and seen so much conflicting information regarding tank size... I'm going to be starting up a second naturally planted tank using cuttings from my current one - so I won't have a filter (shouldn't need one as it'll be densely planted, I have liquid tests though so I'll keep an eye on toxin levels and will be doing regular water changes). What size tank would you recommend for a pair? I've heard they're more active in pairs... though part of me just wants a single frog as I feel it'd be easier - but I want to do what is best for the animal.

I can get ahold of appropriate foods for the frog(s) but I am wondering if bloodworms that are kept in gel are appropriate? They're really easy to get ahold of here and I have a box that I sometimes give my guppies and platys. They would also be easier for me to keep as we have little to no freezer space.

I'm also wondering about males singing! How loud can it be? My father is quite concerned of being woken up by it (though I'm across the hall). I'd hate to find the frog(s) woke him up.

I'll keep an eye on this thread and have a thorough readthrough in the morning... for now I'm going to bed!


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## Chesh

Yay! Welcome to the ADF fanclub! I'm new at this too, but I'll pass on what I know, and I'm sure the others will chime in at some point! 

If you would like to keep a pair I recommend that you get them both at the same time and from the same tank. I have one right now, and want to get another - but because of worry about the chytrid fungus I have to make sure he is well first, then keep the other in quarantine for three months to make sure that it is healthy before putting it into the tank with the first one. ADF's are nearly impossible to sex until they sexually mature at 9 months of age - and even after it can be difficult. . .so getting an actual male/female pair might not happen. . . they can be kept perfectly happily all alone, but are more active in groups (I've been told). Obviously having one I want another - so I'd say go with two right off if you can! I don't really think that it would be any more difficult to keep two than one - aside from the obvious tank cleaning!

Mine hasn't done it yet, (I WILL BE SO EXCITED IF HE DOES!!!) but from what I've been told singing is ONLY done by males (some sources say females may sing ONLY in reply to the call of a male) and the sound is a soft whirring - almost like an electronic malfunction. Shouldn't be something to keep you Dad up at night! I'm not sure if the head posting on this thread has it, but do a Google search, and you should be able to find a recording fairly easily.

You will of course see a HUGE range in the recommended tank size. I have one in a 5 gallon right now, and am very comfortable with adding a second in there, though some would say it will be overstocked. Realistically, as long as you do regular water changes and keep a very close eye on the toxins in the water, and if the frogs have ample room to swim and 'play' - you should be fine. A larger size is always going to be recommended - it's easier to maintain water quality in a larger tank, and of course the creatures do need room to swim and move about, but I think that with proper care and maintenance a 5gallon tank should be okay. As with any pet - you have to watch them and learn what is normal  for them, and be prepared to make a change if it should prove necessary!

I have no idea about bloodworms packed in a gel form, so hopefully someone else will be able to chime in here. . . I do know that it is highly recommended to feed these frogs a variety of foods - as it really is with any animal - rather than sticking to one food source all of the time. I've read that feeding blood worms too often can lead to bloat - but I've also read of people who feed blood-worms almost exclusively and had no problems. This again goes in with being familiar with your animal, not allowing it to overeat, and maintaining good water. 

I see you have a (beautiful) image of a Beta over there. . . just curious - will you be keeping your frogs with him? If so, you'll want to do some research into how to feed ADF's without over-feeding the betta - or starving the frogs! Many people do it, but it can be tricky!

*whew* that was a lot of info! I hope it helped! Keep us up to date on what you decide, and how your little pet(s) fare (when you get there)


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## SpookyTooth

Thank you very much for your advice . I have listened to ADFs singing and it just made me want a male! Haha! I absolutely love it. I'm sure my dad would sleep through it anyway.

I'd definately get a pair from the same tank; if I recall correctly the store I bought my betta from stocks ADFs too, so it'd be great to give them my support again (they're fantastic at what they do).

I have a 5 gallon that my giant african land snail recently moved out of. I can thoroughly clean it and use that; I'd pack it out with live plants as well while maintaining regular water changes, of course. I do hope to get a pair so I'll make sure there's enough playing space (I won't have it too densely planted, just enough to pack out the corners and back to offer some security). They'll have to share space with a couple of Mayalsian Trumpet Snails (to stop the sand from going bad) but I'm sure they won't mind that...

I'm also going to find a small dish I can use for feedings as I'll be using a sand substrate and it'll be much easier to ensure they get enough food.

Thank you for the comment about Kaze, he's a lovely fish. He'll be going into the NPT on my desk away from the frogs. Maybe one day I'll have a 10 gallon with him and the frogs but for now they'll be seperate and left to do their own things.

I've got this topic bookmarked and will check back regularly!  Thanks again!


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## Chesh

I agree! I'm hoping that I have a male just so I get a chance to hear him sing someday! I know I'll be over-the-moon excited about it!

My little frog is happily living with MTS - no worries there! Your frogs will love all of the plants in their new home - and the sand, as well! It sounds like you're off to a good start!

As far as them being messy eaters. . . mine isn't! His food is messier than he is, and tends to go floaty! I don't think I could keep brine or bloodworm in a bowl - but I've found that as long as I don't overfeed him, he finds it all (given time - they don't see very well, and it takes ages for them to find their food if it isn't live - though I've seen mine nab a guppy fry like lightning!) Anything left behind is easily cleaned up with a turkey baster (for me - and my 5g tank is heavily planted, too!). Good thinking to be extra careful in a filter-less tank :thumbsup: A friend of mine recommended defrosting food in a tea strainer to get rid of any extra liquids, as all that does is dirty up the water. Great advice! And all of those wonderful plants won't hurt, either!

You'll have a fun time if you ever decide to add the beta in there. . . I had a killer hard a time keeping frog's food away from the fish when he lived in a community tank. There are loads of people who have worked this out, though - so if you do put them together, you'll have to let us know how they do! I really was considering adding a beta, but. . . it's so NICE now not to have to worry about him getting enough, I think I'll stay with a species tank (and snails, lol!)

It would be wise to check if your LFS sells other types of frogs, like ACF - and if so ask them about their breeders. As Gizmo mentioned on her first posting - ACF are carriers for the Chytrid fungus, and ADF frogs that come from shops that stock both are often exposed. . . not to scare you, but it can take three months for signs of this to show up, and it's a bugger to get rid of. Better to be aware then lose a friend!

I'm a beginner with these frogs, too, but have learned a LOT in the time I've had mine! Do keep checking in - I'm sure those who have been around longer will have more information to add - and of course, update us when you get them!


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## freemike

My experience thus far:

I find my frogs will not sing if they are in a community fish tank. I'm not exactly sure why but they just refuse to sing. When I set up the frog tank I hear them every night. I have three males in a 5 gallon tank and been keeping a close eye on water quality and everything is working out for me. They do have standoffs and some grappling but they haven't hurt each other. Most of the day they are lazy and don't do much of anything and will even lay with each other peacefully. I do have some java moss and anacharis in the tank with them floating. They seem to enjoy climbing and floating with the floating stalks. I'm thinking about giving them sand since I found a nice pellet that is good for them and not being messy as frozen foods.


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## SpookyTooth

Chesherca said:


> Awesome post of awesomeness


Thank you so much for all your advice... but I think my frog endeavors will have to be put on hold.

I've had a bit of a disaster with the planted tank on my desk that's shaken my confidence quite a bit... added some red cherry shrimp yesterday and found them dead this morning. Water tests came up clear so I think the soil I'd originally used wasn't as safe as I thought. I've been considering using only sand as I have easy-to-grow species... but I'm really really nervous now. I may find that the plants I have prefer soil and don't thrive as they have done so far (some are even flowering!).

I can't afford a high-tech tank; the plants in my current one are doing fantastically with no fertilization or CO2 - they're simply in soil, capped with sand and under the correct lighting. I'd like to start over and remove the soil - I don't want to use it again for a while until I'm feeling more confident but I don't know if the species I have will survive without it... though they're stem plants and I think they get most of their nutrition from the water column rather than substrate. I have a bunch of floating plants that are doing well, too.

I'd prefer sand as it's much easier for me to clean (I have a turkey baster) but I've read that gravel is better for waste decomposition. I have two types of gravel too (naturally coloured, standard large gravel and black fine gravel) but I would really prefer to use sand. I think I've bitten off more than I can chew...

Agghhh!!

I've also found that my favourite fish store doesn't stock ADFs... they only have ACFs! I've read all about the fungus and know what to look for (thank Goodness for this topic!) and what to do if the frog is indeed sick but I'd have to find one first heh... maybe I should just stick to one betta tank.

... The last twenty-four hours have been quite frustrating. I'm currently trying to decide where to go from here. I don't want to give up on live plants but I definately don't want to use soil again until I can guarantee that all is well. Maybe this was just a way of nature telling me to slow down a bit and just stick to the basics...

I wonder if I could start up an ADF tank (and re-do Kaze's betta tank) with just sand and pack it full of live plants... who knows, they might thrive.

Sorry for the mini-rant there... I'm utterly exhausted.



freemike said:


> My experience thus far:


That's awesome! Thank you for sharing.


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## Chesh

I'm sorry you're having a tough day, hun! Chin up! Being forced to learn more is _never_ a bad thing. 

I'm still really new to all of this, but I've also looked into cherry shrimp in the past, and decided to wait on that for a bit after reading that they are best introduced to a well-established tank with excellent filtration and are very sensitive to Nitrate and copper. . . so depending on how long your tank has been up and running - maybe it just wasn't the right time yet?! Also new to keeping plants, but . . . from what I've found, even though a soil substrate might be preferred by the plant, it usually isn't _necessary_ for them to thrive. Unless maybe, you're going high tech - which you aren't! I have sand substrate in 3 tanks with many types of plants that (though many are still new to their homes) are doing well and growing rapidly - including stem plants. Byron has posted several articles about this here (though you've probably already read them, it's never bad to read over things again when feeling overwhelmed - if nothing else, it may bolster your confidence to discover how much you actually did right!). I say try the sand, and see how it goes. . . I'm willing to bet that you'll be happy with the results - and since sand is your preferred substrate, you'll be happier all-around in the long run. Give it a try in Kaze's tank - as long as you cause no harm to the creature you're caring for, there is much to be learned here!

I'm sure you've been successfully keeping aquariums far longer than I have, so forgive my regurgitation of obvious information - just trying to help with my limited experience  Sometimes going back to the basics is the best way to solve a problem. . . don't be frustrated by failure (overly) - rather, try be excited to learn more about the various aspects of this fascinating hobby! . . . and I'm sure that when you're feeling ready again, you'll find your froggies - wherever they may be - and give them a wonderfully rich and happy long life! These guys ARE commonly found in the larger chain stores, and so far I've had good luck with PetSmart (more info on this in a previous post if you're interested)

Good luck! *hugs* 
:tongue:


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## Chesh

freemike said:


> I find my frogs will not sing if they are in a community fish tank. I'm not exactly sure why but they just refuse to sing. When I set up the frog tank I hear them every night. I have three males in a 5 gallon tank and been keeping a close eye on water quality and everything is working out for me.


This is really interesting! I wonder if they're not as comfortable in a community tank, or if it's something else? Glad mine is all by himself. . . though. . . does having a few Malaysian Trumpet Snails in with him 'count' as it being a community tank??! (I think not...)



freemike said:


> I'm thinking about giving them sand since I found a nice pellet that is good for them and not being messy as frozen foods.


This is funny, because I've had the exact opposite experience! I only have ONE ADF ATM, but he absolutley WILL NOT recognize the froggy pellets as food - no matter how hungry he is! I have read that a diet of 100% pelleted food can be bad for their digestive tract, and possibly lead to bloat - but again, this also may have a lot to do with overfeeding, and I've also read of people like you who have had no problems with this type of diet. . . so funny the variety of information you can find within the bounds of personal experiences! Every tank and every creature is as unique as their caregiver, truly!


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## SpookyTooth

The kind words of wisdom are just what I needed to hear to be honest, Chesherca. Thank you.

I think I became so upset as I had the shrimp in temporary accomodation (in a tuppaware box floating in Kaze's heated tank! I did daily water changes) and they were absolutely fine - the females became berried. I've been so cautious over adding things to the planted tank because I was trying to make sure the soil had established and that the filter was ok (I love sponge filters; so do baby MTS apparently, they were burrowing into the foam). I have a habit of overthinking things..

I picked myself up after a rest this morning and decided I'd re-do Kaze's soon-to-be new home with the live plants and sand. I've rearranged things in an aquarium slightly smaller than his previous "soon-to-be home" but it's made from a beautiful blue-acrylic (so it's crystal clear) and an interesting shape (it's slightly bow-fronted). I don't usually like acrylic tanks for fish but this one has a nice footprint that I think Kaze will appreciate. Also have a smaller copy for the frog. Just put the MTS in it and they're very happy that there is only sand and no more soil dirtying up their shells! :lol: I saved as many baby MTS as I could (they reproduced!) as well as a pair of ramshorn snails, so hopefully these guys will help me keep the aquarium in good fettle for Kaze.

The bit of driftwood I had in the old tank is also in the new one; it drifts off into the back and fades away - looks like a staircase! Overall I'm happier with how things turned out and can't wait to see how it looks when it grows out. I just hope the little shrimp forgive me for letting them down (... is that a little excessive? Haha).

As for the frogs, I'm definately still going to get one. Once Kaze is in his new home and I can monitor how the plants grow in just sand I'll look into it further. There are plenty of aquatics stores around my area and I'm sure one of them must have an ADF - I can always order one in.

Things always seem worse last thing at night and first thing in the morning! Haha. Now I think I'll settle with a nice cup of tea and watch the snails ramble around their new home. They seem to approve.

(Sorry for slightly derailing the topic there and thank you also for the links!)


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## Chesh

Ahh! Glad to hear you're feeling back on top! I'm sure Kaze will love his new home - and am very happy that _you_ seem satisfied with it, as well! I'm also known for over-thinking things. . .On the whole, I see no issues with it, though it does have it's drawbacks from time to time (one of them being that the one thing you never thought of is the one that happens, :roll I'm sure your shrimp will forgive you from shrimpy heaven - but only if you learn something from their demise - and I suspect you have! Enjoy those snails! My MTS have babies, too - they're so itty bitty CUTE! I'm finding myself to be a huge snail fan, lol! Best of luck to you, dear!


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## SpookyTooth

Thank you very much! I hope your little ADF continues to thrive, though I'm sure he will . And yes, I've fallen quite madly in love with my snails as well. Their babies are incredible! So perfectly formed! It also means I have a few extra that I can put in the frog's tank... I can set that up soon! Ohhh!!

I'm going to give it a couple days before moving Kaze into his new planted tank; will monitor ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels and keep an eye on plant growth. Once he's moved and my second light fixture has arrived I can work on setting up my froglet's tank. I'll call around some aquatics centres and ask them about their stock, too. 

If worst comes to it and I really _can't_ find an ADF (though my fingers are crossed) I can always get another betta - whoops did I say that out loud? Sorry Kaze!


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## freemike

Chesherca said:


> This is really interesting! I wonder if they're not as comfortable in a community tank, or if it's something else? Glad mine is all by himself. . . though. . . does having a few Malaysian Trumpet Snails in with him 'count' as it being a community tank??! (I think not...)



I honestly think it was Cosmo keeping them quiet as he took particular interest in "checking" the frogs out. He never bit or even rammed them. He was just curious as what these things that zoomed from the substrate to the top of the tank was lol. The snails should be fine.


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## SpookyTooth

I'm pleased to report that I may have found a store that stocks ADFs. I had a good day health-wise today and went out for a little while; discovered a new aquatics store (only been open for 3 months) that looks very promising!

I was really happy to see plenty of healthy, interactive fish! Their large angelfish were in big tanks on their own and looked absolutely incredible (I usually see lots of angelfish stocked in small tanks looking miserable in fish stores) and their goldfish were in large tanks, too! They also had loads of corydoras! And shrimp! A store that stocks corydoras and shrimp that I can go to and not have to pay postage!!

They also had a growing list of aquatic plants for sale. Wow! Everything from wisteria to some amazing cryptos!

They only had one betta; a tiny little veiltail that was very friendly - up at the front of his display tank wiggling his little heart out. He must have been very young. I almost bought him but I had my heart set on a frog, so I apprehensively walked away. He was in a community tank and his fins looked fine and dandy. I asked one of the on-hand employees about bettas and he told me about their betta barracks - each cube would probably hold 1.5 gallons of water! I'm going to head back in a couple of months and see how things differ from today. Maybe they'll have their betta barracks finished by then.

I also asked the employee (who was very polite and helpful) about ADFs - he said he hadn't heard of them but asked me to call them or email them with the Latin name and said they'd see what they could do. They also mentioned Congo Frogs... when I got home I did some research and discovered that Congo Frogs are ADFs, just under a different common name! I've emailed them with this info (and the Latin name) and am awaiting a response now. They didn't have any Congo Frogs in stock at the time so I asked them when they were next expected in.

While I wait I've been working on my frog's future tank. I just wanted to know what you all thought, if I may ask? It's a bit murky (from the sand, going to do a water change soon) and I am likely going to be adding more plants - but here it is so far!

The photo was taken with my phone so please excuse the quality.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the tank DOES have a tight-fitting lid xD


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## Gizmothefreaky

Sorry for my absence all!! I am so glad to hear that everyone is doing good!! 

ST- That tank looks great! How big is it? with so many live plants and the beautiful sand i would feel confident that you could have very happy frogs indeed.


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## SpookyTooth

Welcome back to the topic 

Oh, thank you! It's only 2.5 gallons, I am hoping to upgrade it later on though (I have a shed full of tanks that need rehoming first, all smaller ones; not allowed to buy any more aquariums until those ones are rehomed LOL!).

I'm looking to get another 4 - 5 gallon and plant it out but I'm hoping this tank will be appropriate as temporary accomodation (temporary being... a few months). Also looking to add a few more plants to the front (just to offer a bit of extra security at the very front of the tank). I can keep up water changes, I just hope this size is appropriate for a pair of frogs. If not I can just get the one for the time being.

I love the sand. It's very gentle on my fingers and easy to plant stuff in, I don't think the frog(s) will have any problems with it.


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## Chesh

Sorry to hear that you've been unwell, but everything else sounds fantastic! I'm so glad that you've found a seemingly very well-run and trustworthy LFS, and hope they can get you your little froggy friends! :welldone:I love the idea of their 'betta barracs.' I really wish they would do that over here - I feel so bad for those little guys, and always wonder why it's considered acceptable to keep them in tiny cups. 

The tank looks great, and I'm sure the frogs will be very happy there until their upgrade. . . YAY! You're going to have so much fun with these little critters, I just know it!


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## Gizmothefreaky

As a temporary home it will be fine for a pair, as long as you keep up on the water changes. The live plants will keep the water healthy.  and they will be very happy indeed for the upgrade.


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## SpookyTooth

That's awesome to hear! I'm still battling between one or two. If I just got one I'd be much more comfortable housing him in a tank this size, and it's at a place where I can give him lots of attention - I just can't decide though. I know I'll be looking to get a larger tank in the future but have a few other things to sort out first.

Is it possible to keep one and introduce a second later down the line in the new tank?


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## Gizmothefreaky

That is perfectly alright as well. Just be sure it is coming from a place that is free of illness, and QT him before adding him with the other frog, even if the place is good. You just want to be sure. :3


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## SpookyTooth

Okay  Thank you very much for the help! That is a massive weight off my mind, to be honest haha.


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## Gizmothefreaky

lol, no worries! i am here to help, even though i am not here all the time. xD


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## Chesh

SpookyTooth said:


> Is it possible to keep one and introduce a second later down the line in the new tank?


Like Gizmo said - yes, but remember that the QT period for Chytrid is three months - which is a loooooooooooong time! I still have one month to go before I'm sure that my #1 is okay, and I'm so impatient to get the second - who will ALSO have to be in QT in a separate tank for 3 months before they can be kept together. This is a half of a year in quarantine for two frogs! If it's possible, and if you're _sure_ you'll want two - I'd advise to wait a little bit longer now, and bring them home together - ESPECIALLY if you're as impatient as ME!!!





Gizmothefreaky said:


> lol, no worries! i am here to help, even though i am not here all the time. xD


And we LOVE you for it! *squeezes*


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## Gizmothefreaky

Hee hee!


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## JennybugJennifer

I have a Betta and a ADF together and they seem ok, will they get used to each other? I have two Bettas and I had to move my ADF because that Betta kept trying to bite him


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## Gizmothefreaky

It all depends on the personality of the betta... Wat size tank do you have them in? 

ADFs are generally very peaceful, but i have noticed that mine have very poor aim when eating, and have come close to biting tails of other tank mates ( this includes bettas, cories, and loaches... all fish i have kept with ADFs) but it isnt aggression, they just cant see where they are aiming. lol!


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## whatwhat

Hi, I just got my 2 adfs yesterday and they are pretty small. They didn't have any sinking pellet food for them so they gave me freeze dried blood worms. I tried just putting the food in and leaving it there, but I don't think it sank and no one got it. Then I tried hand feeding it by holding the food right infront of them but they don't do anything ;( Should I go to the store and get sinking food instead?


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## Chesh

whatwhat said:


> Hi, I just got my 2 adfs yesterday and they are pretty small. They didn't have any sinking pellet food for them so they gave me freeze dried blood worms. I tried just putting the food in and leaving it there, but I don't think it sank and no one got it. Then I tried hand feeding it by holding the food right infront of them but they don't do anything ;( Should I go to the store and get sinking food instead?


It's likely that they're feeling a bit stressed from the move. They'll be fine without eating for a day or two - keep the tank lights out and give them time to adjust - they'll likely happily take their feed after they start settling in.

As far as food is concerned, from my understanding (and there is some debate here) the freeze dried foods aren't terribly good for them, as they can expand in their tummies, causing bloat. Bloodworms are good, but it's BEST to feed a variety of foods - if you're going with frozen foods, use the wet-frozen type. These are found easily, even the big chain stores will have a freezer, though you may have to ask after it. The pellets are good, just make sure you get the right type - and for the record MY ADF refuses to eat the pellets at all! If that's what they were being fed in the shop, then yours might react differently to them. I feed a mixture of bloodworms, brine, bits of tilapia, whiteworm. . . there's a long list of possibilities! With the frozen foods, be sure to defrost them before feeding - they will sink to the bottom when thawed.

I'm sure someone else will chime in here soon with more advice for you, but for now I hope this helped! Good luck - and keep us posted on your new babies!


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## whatwhat

Chesherca said:


> It's likely that they're feeling a bit stressed from the move. They'll be fine without eating for a day or two - keep the tank lights out and give them time to adjust - they'll likely happily take their feed after they start settling in.
> 
> As far as food is concerned, from my understanding (and there is some debate here) the freeze dried foods aren't terribly good for them, as they can expand in their tummies, causing bloat. Bloodworms are good, but it's BEST to feed a variety of foods - if you're going with frozen foods, use the wet-frozen type. These are found easily, even the big chain stores will have a freezer, though you may have to ask after it. The pellets are good, just make sure you get the right type - and for the record MY ADF refuses to eat the pellets at all! If that's what they were being fed in the shop, then yours might react differently to them. I feed a mixture of bloodworms, brine, bits of tilapia, whiteworm. . . there's a long list of possibilities! With the frozen foods, be sure to defrost them before feeding - they will sink to the bottom when thawed.
> 
> I'm sure someone else will chime in here soon with more advice for you, but for now I hope this helped! Good luck - and keep us posted on your new babies!


My frogs still won't eat  I bought the pellets and they are small enough for them, I put them around the area they sit, but they won't even react to them. 
I called the store and they said they feed them the same thing... Should I try frozen bloodworms? I also saw youtube videos of people feeding with big tweezers and things. Where can I get something like that?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Hello! Sorry i have been away! I just wantedto say, frozen bloodworms are a great starting food. Mine eat pellets and bloodworms readily, and always have. 
Is there anything else in the tank that coule be bullying them? Sometimes mine wont eat if the cories are crowding them. 

How long have you had them, and do they seem bloated, or have red hind legs? they could just not be feeling well... Did you put them in a cycled tank? and what kind of food did you get them, like the brand?

I suggest buying some frozen bloodworms and feeding that before deciding that you need to hand feed. Teaching them that hands mean food makes it to where you cant just throw food in and go, so i avoid it as much as i can.


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## Olympia

I have a question about ADFs. I've been considering non fish options for my 4th tank.. One of my ideas is to do a paludarium. No idea how it works. But if I made a frog one, could I have ADFs in the water portion with no fear of them climbing out and killing themselves on the land, as long as there is an easy way in and out of the water? It would be extremely humid in there also.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Hmm, honestly I have heard of ADFs climbing out onto floating plants with no problem, and I am sure they do it in the wild, but I have never heard anything about what you ate talking about doing. Lol sorry!


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## Chesh

My thoughts are that a frog wouldn't be daft enough to come out of the water if it was going to be harmed by doing so - these guys do live in the wild, and the option to leave the water would have to be available to them! But I've never really looked into this one before! I sent a message to the frog guru's on message board I visit - it's quite likely that one of them has tried this, so I'll let you know what they come back with!


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## Olympia

I thought it'd be cute to have ADFs and some small treefrogs together. Until they all start singin in my room at night. xD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

That would be very cute, perhaps have the water section set up in such a way that the ADFs couldn't climb out?


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## whatwhat

Gizmothefreaky said:


> Hello! Sorry i have been away! I just wantedto say, frozen bloodworms are a great starting food. Mine eat pellets and bloodworms readily, and always have.
> Is there anything else in the tank that coule be bullying them? Sometimes mine wont eat if the cories are crowding them.
> 
> How long have you had them, and do they seem bloated, or have red hind legs? they could just not be feeling well... Did you put them in a cycled tank? and what kind of food did you get them, like the brand?
> 
> I suggest buying some frozen bloodworms and feeding that before deciding that you need to hand feed. Teaching them that hands mean food makes it to where you cant just throw food in and go, so i avoid it as much as i can.


My betta doesn't say anything to mine. I have had them for about 4 days now and they don't seem bloated at all. They also don't have red hind legs and the tank was cycled.
I got them frog and tadpole bites made by topfin. I scattered them around the area that they hang out in and I noticed 1 or 2 disappear after a while so I guess they are eating, and they survived for a while so they must be eating.
Is it bad to scatter the foot in the tank? I have some seashells in the tank, should I use the inside of those as a feeding plate instead?


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## Gizmothefreaky

I love to scatter food in the tank for them as stimulation, just one or two pellets here and there, so it won't foul the water if left too long, but enough to draw their attention. They do enjoy foraging for food, I avoid feeding in the same spot every time, but everyone is different, and what works for mine may not work for yours.


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## whatwhat

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I love to scatter food in the tank for them as stimulation, just one or two pellets here and there, so it won't foul the water if left too long, but enough to draw their attention. They do enjoy foraging for food, I avoid feeding in the same spot every time, but everyone is different, and what works for mine may not work for yours.


Mine are very small and timid right now so they don't seem to notice the food, but at night I leave the lights off and that's when they eat like 1 or 2 pellets i think.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Then I suggest only feeding what they will eat over night, drop the food in just before lights out, maybe two-three pellets a piece, and in the morning see what happened. You just may need to feed them only at night.


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## JennybugJennifer

First off, I want to say, gizmo, I am so sorry for my rudeness to you. I got too defensive. I trying the best I can. I moved everyone out of the 2.5 gallong but Frogger and he is much happier. But I recently bought a 3 gallon for jaws that is heated but not filtered. Should I leave Frogger in the heated/filtered 2.5 or move him to the 3?
Next time I'm getting paid I want to get a suitable tank to hold two ADFS. Heated and filtered of course. 

How large of a tank would be ideal to have if you were to keep 2 ADFS together with no other tank mates?
What are the essentials you need for an ADF tank? 
Does he look healthy?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Hello, it's alright, don't worry. I don't hold grudges agaianst anyone.

For two frogs with nothing else you could do five gallons, or a 6.6 gallon bookshelf tank from petco, those are great. I like to say 1 frog-3 gallons, 2 frogs- 5 gallons, 3/4 frogs- 10 gallons and so on. 

It I hard to tell how healthy he is from that picture honestly, but as long as he is eating and swimming normally he should be fine.


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## JennybugJennifer

Okay thanks so much. 
Right now he's Unfortunately in a 2.5 gallon by himself
He's not much of a swimmer but he's active. 
I have never seen him eat :/ I do drop the food right on him too
I'm assuming he is because I've had him like 2-3 weeks. 
He's happier since I took the fish out. 
What is the essentials you need for their tank? 
And how often do you feed?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Here is a great example of a frog tank. This is my eight gallon (this is a year old picture, it doesnt look anything like this anymore, but its still a good picture) and i had two frogs living in here, Jackie and Casper, as well as a betta. The substrate is a fine sand, and there is a lot of cover from the betta, but they could also come up and sit in the fake grass plant when they wanted to. The decor is really up to you, but they much prefer sand as a substrate, and plants at all levels of the water. 











Have you tried offering bloodworms? Since he is by himself it should be much easier to judge if he is eating of not. I feed mine pellets every other day, and bloodworms (frozen thawed, NOT freeze dried, those will kill your frogs) twice a week. 

My current tank setup is as follows: 1 betta, 2 ADFs, 3 albino and 3 green cories, and 5 kuhli loaches. I do water changes every third day of anywhere from 30% to 60%, and spot clean every day. need to get a picture of the tank.... lmao!


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## JennybugJennifer

This broke my heart


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## JennybugJennifer

What's a good and beautiful plant that floats?


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## JennybugJennifer

I have this gel substance made with bloodworms that sinks that I feed and pellets. I was thinking about getting a veriety of frozen food, I thin it had blood worms, shrimp, and one other like type


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## JennybugJennifer

Should I move Frogger to the unfiltered, heated, three gallon?


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## Gizmothefreaky

That picture is so sad... Some people can be so cruel...

As for your other questions:
Floating plants: I have used frogbit ad duckweed in the past, but other than that dont know of anything else, try PMing OldFishLady, she knows much more about plants than i do. 

food: I just get the hikari frozen bloodworms and frog and tadpole pellets, the frozen brine shrimp they sell has very little nutritional value to ADFs, so just stick with the simple stuff. 

Tank: You could leave him where he is now or move him, i would leave him be, just bacause of the issue of stress from moving again.


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## JennybugJennifer

Well don't they have to have filters too?
What essentials do you need? I'll have to get some tad pole bits 
I have some sinking pellets I using break up


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## Gizmothefreaky

They don't necessarily need a filter, it is always a good idea, but it isn't something they will suffer without. 

essentials... Hmm... I would say heater, fine sand substrate, proper sized tank, plants(real or fake, doesnt matter) , good food ( HBH frog and tadpole bites is the brand i use), and clean water. 

If the sinking pellets are for frogs then you are good on that front, so dont worry.


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## JennybugJennifer

I'll show you them 
I feed like onces maybe twice a day

These are his foods


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## Gizmothefreaky

Those are what I am talking about.  in my experience it is always best to stick with a food that has the animals name in the name of the product. That food in the gel gets expensive, but it is good stuff, I would just get the frozen bloodworm blocks from now on. They are way cheaper. Lmao!!


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## Chesh

Yikes! I don't know why I haven't been getting updates on this thread! Looks like it's been hopping over here - no pun intended 

Jennifer, as far as plants are concerned. . . a lot of this depends on the type of water and lighting that you have, but one of the easiest plants to keep alive without help is Hornwort. It's also a great nutrient hog, and will help keep your water clear of toxins and such. The problem with it is that it's messy! My frog loves it, though. There are tons of options out there for floating plants, though. If you want to post up some of the specifics on your tank, I can try to help a little bit more in this. Not only will the frog love the floating plants, you can 'plant' them in the substrate or weigh some down, and they'll really love that, too!

As far as filtration goes, yes - have some! Though it isn't 100% necessary, it will make it a lot easier to keep the water properly maintained without a hitch - and we can use all of the help we can get sometimes! Be careful about the intake on your filter, though. It's a good idea to cover it with nylon mesh or a sponge to keep little flippers from getting sucked into it. . . Like Gizmo said, I would leave him be until you get a bigger tank. Moving them around too much isn't good, either - and he's probably fine in the 2.5 all alone! 

Food. . .Stick with something designed especially for the frogs. If you can't find the HTH, Topfin brand sells one called 'Frog, newt, and tadpole bites' that are fine for ADF. Most PetSmart stores carry them - they're easy to find. But if you're going to PetSmart, ask for the freezer section and get some frozen goodies, too! I wonder if you'd be better off trying the frozen bloodworms? This can vary, but MY frog absolutley will not eat pellets under any circumstances EVER! He was never fed pellets though - in the shop they fed him brine shrimp, so I'm not sure if he even 'gets' that the pellets are food.


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## Chesh

whatwhat said:


> My betta doesn't say anything to mine. I have had them for about 4 days now and they don't seem bloated at all. They also don't have red hind legs and the tank was cycled.
> I got them frog and tadpole bites made by topfin. I scattered them around the area that they hang out in and I noticed 1 or 2 disappear after a while so I guess they are eating, and they survived for a while so they must be eating.
> Is it bad to scatter the foot in the tank? I have some seashells in the tank, should I use the inside of those as a feeding plate instead?


I would NOT assume they've eaten them unless you see them do so. As I've mentioned before, my frog absolutley will not take the pellets - ever! I wonder why they're being so shy about eating. . . Have you tried frozen bloodworms or brine shrimp? Even TINY bits of frozen tilapia fillet (like you eat for dinner) are very appetizing to a frog! If you put the food in and watch - do they seem in the slightest bit interested in it at all? This depends on the frog too, but mine has a tough time finding the food, so I feed him in the same place every time. He's trained to go to that spot for his food. . . another thing to consider is how they were fed in-shop. Mine was fed brine shrimp with a turkey baster, and he's kind of preconditioned to accept this food and method of feeding. I don't feed him with a baster, but when I use one to clean up after him, he goes nutty trying to eat it 

Hope this was helpful somehow - I'm half-asleep still! Good luck!


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## whatwhat

Hi guys, my frogs were doing great for 2 weeks, and everything else including the other fish and the water. I noticed one was getting longer than the other, one just kept getting fatter looking and was just as short as it was when I got it. I know they were eating because food was disappearing. 

Yesterday I found the smaller frog sitting in front of the tank all day. It was inactive for over 12 hours, and when I nudged it a little I knew it died  I am not sure what happened to it, and neither is the pet store. Now the other one doesn't seem to eat the pellets and is just sitting around too. What should I do? Get it frozen bloodworms? I can't go today because everything is closed :/

EDIT: I got these from petsmart, could they have a common disease?


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## Chesh

I am truly sorry that you're going through this. . . :-(

Hopefully we can help out, but we'll need more info from you. 

Can you give any information on your water parameters and tank size? Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, tank size, filtration, heat? Also, what type of pellets have you been feeding them? Do you have any pictures of your sick friend?

There are a million reasons why they could be getting sick, including disease, but in order to figure out exactly what the problem is, we need a bit more information from you.

*hugs*


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## whatwhat

Chesherca said:


> I am truly sorry that you're going through this. . . :-(
> 
> Hopefully we can help out, but we'll need more info from you.
> 
> Can you give any information on your water parameters and tank size? Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, tank size, filtration, heat? Also, what type of pellets have you been feeding them? Do you have any pictures of your sick friend?
> 
> There are a million reasons why they could be getting sick, including disease, but in order to figure out exactly what the problem is, we need a bit more information from you.
> 
> *hugs*


I don't have a test kit atm, but I recently got it checked at the pet store and they said it was good. It is a 10 gallon tank, the temperature is 78-80 F and the filter is great.

He has been sitting like this for like 2 hours, and if I nudge him he just moves a bit.


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## whatwhat

The food that they first gave me were the free dried bloodworms on the right, and they just floated so I don't use them anymore. The one on the right, is the one that they are eating.


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## Chesh

Wow... this is the BIGGER frog? He's terribly thin. I mean. . . REALLY thin. Have you actually seen him eating the pellets you drop in for him at all? Is he in there with any other creatures? It can be very difficult to ensure that an ADF is getting enough food - they're slow hunters, and if there are other fish in with them, they might not be getting anything at all. My frog absolutley will NOT touch any type of pellet foods, though there are many that eat them with no problems. I would say that you should go out and get some wet frozen bloodworm and brine shrimp and try feeding him those by hand. You said that the PET stores are closed today, but if you can get to a grocery store, you can feed these guys tiny bits of Tilapia fish (shown in pictures below). Fresh or frozen is fine, just as long as it's uncooked and unseasoned, and cut into tiny bits so he doesn't choke. Go slow - you need to fatten him up, but too much too soon will cause bloat - so feed him very small meals to start with.

IF you have actually seen him eat, and he's still this thin, you might be dealing with something else. So let me know if you're 100% sure that he's eating his pellets. . . also what brand of pellets you're trying to feed him. This can make a difference.

Do all the frogs in the shop's tank look this thin? Do you know what they feed them while they're there?

Here's some pics of what my little guy looks like so you can get an idea of how thin your froggy is. This is an older shot from when he was still new, and he's eating, so has a full tummy - you can still see that his tummy is nice and rounded:


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## Chesh

whatwhat said:


> The food that they first gave me were the free dried bloodworms on the right, and they just floated so I don't use them anymore. The one on the right, is the one that they are eating.


Ahh, yeah... the freeze dried bloodworms should be avoided. You have the right type of pellets, though - are you 100% sure they're eating them? You can try soaking the freeze dried bloodworms for a while before feeding. . . the problem with the freeze dried foods (as I understand it) is that they can expand in the stomach after the frog eats them, causing bloat. This shouldn't be as big of a problem if they've been soaked, and so are already expanded. . .


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## whatwhat

Chesherca said:


> Ahh, yeah... the freeze dried bloodworms should be avoided. You have the right type of pellets, though - are you 100% sure they're eating them? You can try soaking the freeze dried bloodworms for a while before feeding. . . the problem with the freeze dried foods (as I understand it) is that they can expand in the stomach after the frog eats them, causing bloat. This shouldn't be as big of a problem if they've been soaked, and so are already expanded. . .


He usually goes inside a little ornament, and I put his food there, when I check its usually mostly gone, but since yesterday he hasn't ate anything I think. When I got him from the pet store he was this thin or maybe thinner ;O I thought they were supposed to be like that ;/ Today is a long weekend here and everything is closed ;/


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## Chesh

Yeah. . . they're not supposed to be that skinny  He looks like he's starving. I don't know anything about internal parasites with these frogs, so I can't help there, but if you haven't actually SEEN him eat anything, then you might want to assume he hasn't. . .

If you don't have anything in your freezer that he can eat, and can't get anywhere to get him something different to eat. . . maybe try soaking the bloodworms in water until they're fully saturated and sinking, then try feeding him by hand. It might take you a few tries, but you might be able to get him to take it. I fed mine by hand for quite a while, as he was in a community tank for a bit.

I'm still new with these frogs, so I'm hoping someone else will be on soon to chime in with more expert advice, but. . . he needs to get something in his belly! Poor little guy! 

If all of the frogs for sale at your shop look like this. . . they should be reported! These creatures are either starving to death or very ill. . .

 

I'm sorry! Let me know if you manage to get anything into him. I really hope you can get him to eat!


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## JennybugJennifer

Okay thanks for all the help. 
He's been in his 2.5 for like three weeks and he seems happy
I feed the gel and now that he's alone I can visibly see and know it was him eating when he finds it. I try and spot feed and put some on the other end too. 
I'll post pictures of his tank and I have good ones of him to see if he looks healthy. 
He's so lonely though. 
Would it be cruel to get him a froggy friend in his 2.5gallon?
























_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

He loves his pineapple. I didn't have the heart to take it from him and give it back to the Betta. 
He's always smooshed between it and the glass hiding. So he thinks 








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

Here's a couple more to get a better look at his health
(I couldn't edit  I'm sorry for the several posts. I think of things then can't edit)















(his bummy)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/iTwistedSerenity/04507d8c.jpg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

One more question..... I'm sorry..... This is my first frog like my fish... I never had aquatic pets. 
I have a 3 gallon that jaws is in, should I move Frogger there? 
It's heated but unfiltered. Could I add a frog then? It's the best I can do ATM. But I made sure I budgeted so everyone has a heater and at least 2.5 gallons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Aww! Froggy!!! He's so cute! It's really hard to get a good picture of these guys, and there is quite a bit to look for health-wise that simply wouldn't come up on a picture. Even between flash and flashlight - I can't judge on coloration, but he does seem a *bit* on the thin side to me in one of the pictures - again I could be wrong, it's really hard to tell from these images. Is he eating well now that he's on his own? I believe I sent you a PM with information on what to watch for in a sick ADF, but from here *shrug* He looks okay to me! 

A misconception here - your frog isn't lonely! Regardless of some beliefs to the contrary, ADF do not NEED to be kept in pairs or groups. They are social, and will behave differently with friends in the tank, but provided that they're well cared for, they are perfectly fine and happy to live a long life as singles. This is not a creature that_ requires_ the company of others for it's health.

That being said. . . I wouldn't be comfortable with putting 2 frogs in anything less than a 5 gallon tank - with filtration and heat. They need the room to swim around, and with the messy types of food that they need to be healthy it can be very difficult to keep a smaller tank stable enough in parameters for their overall health.

Particularly to you, I'd wait a bit longer and keep an eye on the one you have. Get used to his behavior and plump him out a bit before adding a buddy. . . you can save up for the 5g while you wait! Chytrid is a very real problem in the world just now, so personally, I have decided to wait a period of 3-4 months to be sure that mine wasn't infected with it. Now I'll be QTing a 2nd frog in another tank for the same amount of time before putting the two together - I'd be devastated if a new frog came in sick and harmed my first - just something else to think about here. . . if I were you, I'd wait until I could get a 5g up and cycled, then QT #2 alone in THAT tank for a period of 3months before putting them both together. It sucks, but patience is ALWAYS worth the wait in this hobby, I'm learning!

On 2.5 alone vs 3g with Jaws - I'd leave Mr. Frog in the 2.5 by himself for the moment. As you've learned, it can be difficult to make sure that an ADF eats well in community with other creatures, and most people find that they really do best on their own in a species tank. Also. . . as you've seen already, ADF and Betta fish aren't *always* the best tank mates. A lot of this depends on the temperaments of both frog and fish. Then there's the added stress of another move to consider. . . I'd just leave them where they are for now! As long as you're closely watching/testing/cleaning the tank that he's in, 2.5 should be fine for one little frog. Plus, you'll be able to get a better idea of what is normal behavior for your frog and get used to his behavior and habits - which might be very different if he's in the company of a fish!

I'm sure someone with a bit more experience will be by soon with some more seasoned advice, but that's my two cents - hope it helps!

;-)


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## JennybugJennifer

Thanks so much for the advice. He gets pretty active in the night, like 2 am, and I had turned the filter off last night for dinner and forgot to turn it on and I was so scared when I woke up because I couldn't find him but I turned the filter on and poof I have a frog and he's swimming about. It looked like he was trying to eat something he saw. 
What's the recommended water change weekly for his 2.5?
When I said move him I wasn't specific enough I'm sorry. I ment move him to the three gallon heated unfiltered and put jaws in the 2.5 gallon. Because I can't have ANYTHING with jaws. He's way too aggressive, I tried him and Frogger together in the beginning and jaws was trying to bite Frogger. And i had an oto ( my mistake listening to idiot petsmart "fish experts") that i tried in there and jaws chased him relentlessly. So I put a snail with him and jaws would go up under the better when he was sleeping or moving and try to bite. But anyways I kinda like my set ups. 
Frogger is on my night stand kinda storage thing. 
And jaws and pearls tanks are on my DVD dresser thing. 
And I've found that they're okay being in sight of one another. 
They flare a lot but I've been watching them for any signs of stress and haven't seen any 
I'll go back to the link you sent me, sometimes I will read something then kind of forget
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## JennybugJennifer

Okay so these are what I was able to run out and grab for him. 
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/iTwistedSerenity/e403b447.jpg
And a better picture of him 
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/iTwistedSerenity/57d97231.jpg
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## JennybugJennifer

I'm scared now. I did a 100% water change. And it was kinda an emergency because of me and I feel crappy about it. And so I tried my best to get my water the same temp as his old tank. 
But in order to put him back in without putting all the nastiness back too I just gripped him VERY gently with my thumb and finger on his tummy and put him in...
I hope he will be ok  I'm worried now...
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## Chesh

ADFs are nocturnal, so they do become far more active as the lights go out. I like to feed mine in the evening - around 6ish, that way once he eats, I get to enjoy him during his most active time of day - but still before I go to bed 

Frozen blood-worms are fantastic, and that IS the proper type of floating pellets. Has he eaten any yet? He does still seem a bit scrawny to me in that last photo, the bloodworms should fatten him up pretty quickly, and I hope he takes the pellets for you.

I'm really not sure about water changes on the 2.5, so you'll have to hang on from one of the others who has run a smaller tank with a frog in it. I'd imagine whatever you do for your betta should be good. If it were me, I'd test the tank frequently for a week or two - once you get an idea of how the water looks, you should be able to easily figure out how much needs to be changed out.

As for moving him. . . I'm not entirely clear on why you want to? But my advice is still to just let him settle in and fatten up before causing him any more stress unless you feel it's absolutley necessary for his health.

Hope all goes well!


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## Chesh

JennybugJennifer said:


> I'm scared now. I did a 100% water change. And it was kinda an emergency because of me and I feel crappy about it. And so I tried my best to get my water the same temp as his old tank.
> But in order to put him back in without putting all the nastiness back too I just gripped him VERY gently with my thumb and finger on his tummy and put him in...
> I hope he will be ok  I'm worried now...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, just saw this one pop up. . . I guess you decided to change tanks anyway? I've never actually moved my frog before (though he does eat from my hand and sit in my palm UNDERwater) As long as you were really gentle, I'm sure he'll be okay  Keep us posted.


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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> ADFs are nocturnal, so they do become far more active as the lights go out. I like to feed mine in the evening - around 6ish, that way once he eats, I get to enjoy him during his most active time of day - but still before I go to bed
> 
> Frozen blood-worms are fantastic, and that IS the proper type of floating pellets. Has he eaten any yet? He does still seem a bit scrawny to me in that last photo, the bloodworms should fatten him up pretty quickly, and I hope he takes the pellets for you.
> 
> I'm really not sure about water changes on the 2.5, so you'll have to hang on from one of the others who has run a smaller tank with a frog in it. I'd imagine whatever you do for your betta should be good. If it were me, I'd test the tank frequently for a week or two - once you get an idea of how the water looks, you should be able to easily figure out how much needs to be changed out.
> 
> As for moving him. . . I'm not entirely clear on why you want to? But my advice is still to just let him settle in and fatten up before causing him any more stress unless you feel it's absolutley necessary for his health.
> 
> Hope all goes well!


I was thinking of moving him because the tank jaws is in is 3 gallons which is a tad more than he has now...
Since I did his water change he has totally perked up and I saw him eat a little of the repto blood worm gel food I offered but not the pellets
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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> Sorry, just saw this one pop up. . . I guess you decided to change tanks anyway? I've never actually moved my frog before (though he does eat from my hand and sit in my palm UNDERwater) As long as you were really gentle, I'm sure he'll be okay  Keep us posted.


No no I just put him in a bowl I use that has treated water in it that I ALWAYS have on hand so that I could fully clean his tank but I slipped the filter canister in there too so it nasties up the water and I didn't want all that poured back in his beautifully cleaned tank. I fixed the grass plant thing and then added some plant fertilizer and the stuff to make the water safe. 
He has actually kinda perked up. When I grabbed him I was so soft and gentle that he almost could have jumped and succefully gotten away(which he tried but he was already over his tank thank god) but I saw him take a little bit of gel blood worms. I can't tell how much he ate but the majority of it is gone 
I got the pellets and he didn't eat them. I also got a frozen block of bloodworms. I turned his light off and stuff to kinda give him a destress period
And this is his tank now 
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/iTwistedSerenity/ce3d8626.jpg
Also I decided to just keep one little froggy and my two Betta boys. I'm a bit overwhelmed as it is
But in a few days I'm gunna run over an buy three hornwort plants(one for each of my boys)
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## Chesh

I'm so glad he's eating!!! It sounds like your frog may be like mine and just not recognize the pellets as food. It does tend to be tougher on gravel, as they fall in the cracks. . . If you can't get him to take the pellets, you might want to consider getting another type or two of frozen food for him. LOTS of people feed bloodworm daily with NO PROBLEMS, but I've also read that it has been linked to bloat when fed exclusively. Totally your decision to make, of course, just wanted to point out what I've read and heard from others. Either way, be sure to WATCH him while he eats. It is really important that you make sure he's getting enough - and not too much! The frog's belly is slightly to the left side. You will be able to see it round out when he has had enough to eat if you pay attention.

Good call on offing the lights, leave them low for a day or so to let him settle in. He'll like it, especially since he's noctournal, and there isn't very much for him to hide in. The pineapple he loves, I bet. . . my frog has a 'house,' too - he loves it!

Hornwort is an EXCELLENT idea. It can be a messy plant, but it's one of the best at soaking up toxins in the tank. In a small tank, this can be a lifesaving plant! Plus. . .your frog will DEFINITELY love it, and will feel much more comfortable with the extra shade/security of more plants. It grows very quickly, so you'll have plenty to share among tanks before long! 

I agree that you should wait on frog #2. You're overwhelmed right now because you're learning about an entirely new and different species - AFTER bringing it home! I've been there - just a few months ago - it isn't fun, but I think you're on the right track. Get your frog settled, eating properly, and comfortable with maintaining his tank. . . once you are comfortable with frog and what he needs to thrive. . .you just might change your mind and be wanting a bigger tank and a buddy 

For now - good luck, keep us posted!


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## JennybugJennifer

Is there a plant of equal abilitys? 
I can't find ONE store that had any :[
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## JennybugJennifer

YAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I saw him eat dinner just now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is how I fed: 
Frozen defrosted bloodworms like this 








WOOOOOO!!! (I've never actually SEEN him eat)
I'm going to try and "train" him that dinner is in the cup. 
Makes it easy for him to get and not float away and easy to clean up the excess
Should I take it out and empty the food and give it back or just use for dinner?
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## JennybugJennifer

One more thing, gahhh sorry I feel like I ask soooooooo much 
I cut up part of my scrubber sponge because they're cheap and wrapped it around the filter intake and wrapped a rubber band around it, is the rubber band safe? I soaked it in safe water for a few minutes 
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/iTwistedSerenity/313a848c.jpg
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## Chesh

LOL! Never apologize for asking questions! Look at it this way - posting your questions up here will likely help someone in the future with a similar problem - only they'll find an answer (hopefully!)

I am so happy you've seen him eat! HUZZAH! Very important to be sure of this, obviously! 

Frogs seem to be really easy to train - mine eats right out of my fingertips! I've read many instances where people feed in a cup or a dish of some sort, so I'm fairly sure this will work out for both of you. I don't think it matters if you keep the cup in the tank or not, as long as you're consistent in always placing his food in the same spot - and it will make things easier for you to clean. I'd say it's up to you if you want to have a cup in your tank, lol! Personally, I'd want to get something smaller to keep in-tank (many people recommend the water catchers from the small terracotta flower pots) and clean up after meals with a turkey baster - I worry about contaminating my tank with putting things in and out every single day - but I don't think it will matter to the frog, as long as his water stays clean and he gets something to eat! Whichever way you decide, once he associates food with that cup, that's where he'll go to get some! Keep in mind that you must be very careful never to get soap into his tank or he will die. Wash the cup with vinegar and rinse it very well between uses.

As for rubber-bands, I'm not entirely sure! I've seen people recommend them for use in attaching plants to driftwood and such, but I used fishing line in my tanks. Eventually the band will rot away, I suspect, and need replacing. I have no idea what kind of weird contaminates might go into making those, so. . . *I* wouldn't do it - but that doesn't mean it isn't okay! Gizmo could better answer this one, she has more experience. . .


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## JennybugJennifer

Crap!!!! Now I'm scared again. I didn't clean it first but te cup I chose hasn't been used or washed in Atleast a week :/ I gunna lose my mind lol. I'll wash it though. I took it out to empty the extra food after a half hour of not eating it ( after I sat and watched him eat)
I'll switch out the rubber band before it decomposes :/ blah
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## Chesh

LOL! I'm sure it'll be fine. . . glass should show soap residue fairly obviously, right! You'd have noticed!


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## JennybugJennifer

I'm really truly losing my mind. If this keeps up, honestly I may find him a new home. I'm stressed already about my own medical crap and now scared im killing my animals. 
He's okay for now, he's swimming, "playing" and he ate his dinner. He seems to frequent the surface more and everything. I don't know if that's ANOTHER worry *sigh*
I feel like he's suffering because I keep finding out all the wrong in doing. I feel like I'm just slowly killing him 
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## SpookyTooth

I've been keeping an eye on this topic from afar and learning more, even though my own frog plans are on hold.

I, too have medical issues, JennybugJennifer and know how frustrating and worrying it can be when you take an animal into your home and pour your heart and soul into its care only to learn you may have made a mistake somewhere along the line - especially when other stresses due to your own stuff are present as well!

It's absolutely fine to make mistakes as long as we learn from them, and your questions clearly show that you are willing to - which is fantastic! It can be extremely stressful bringing something new into your life (I remember when I first brought Kaze home - I was up several times a night checking on him and had so many worries it was unbelievable!) but once you've learned more about your indivudual animal and his personality, and have learned more about his species in general that stress _will_ fade with time.

We just have to endure the initial period of time where our frustrations take over - we'll become stronger for it. Part of me thinks that our animals know the effort we put into their care and they reward us indirectly through their growing bigger and stronger, through their activity and through their general silliness!

I hope you're able to relax soon


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## MollyJean

Aww you poor thing. Don't worry so much as long as you're doing your best!

I'll clear your worries a little right now. Rubber bands are just fine. Make sure they're secure and won't come loose and strong enough that they won't snap, because a loose rubber band is a choking hazard for any fish, but they're safe for the water, so don't worry. I use one of the really thick ones that come on broccoli in one of my tanks to hold a plastic plant to a piece of driftwood. No risk of it snapping.  People use them for plants, thermometers, dividers and, like you, filters. All kinds of things.


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## Wolfie305

Seeing as how they like being together, could I have two females or two males together? Or should they be a male and female pair? 

I'm reusing my goldfishy's 10 gallon to put Paarthurnax in and I've been thinking of using the extra space for two of these guys :3 They're adorable.


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## JennybugJennifer

Aw thanks everyone. I'm so used to always worrying about me and my cat and chihuahua plus I have severe anxiety as it is soooo yeahhh....
He was perfect and happy this morning. I'll see how he eats tonight and post of course :/ this thread has REALLY helped. I think he would of died a long time ago had I not got home and thought "hmmm lets see what is out there for Bettas?"


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## Chesh

They ARE adorable! I haven't had experience with more than one at a time, but I've read a LOT about these frogs, and I have never seen anything indicating a recommendation for gender. I don't think it matters - I've never heard of an aggressive ADF, so I'd assume it would be fine, however it ended up. A point to consider is that it is difficult to determine the gender of an adult ADF - and impossible to tell with a juvenile - which is generally what you'll find in shops. So you might not have a choice in the matter anyway!  ADF's come to maturity at around 9 months of age (from what I've read - mine is still younger!) and if you have a male and he's happy - you'll hear him (quietly) singing - calling for a mate. (I will be so excited if that happens here!)

If you do decide to get more than one, I'd recommend that you get them all at one time. You'll want to QT any arrivals after that for around 3 months to be sure they aren't bringing the chytrid fungus to your healthy ones - and that is a pain! Better to do it all at once and be done. (I am about to start this process with my #2)

Hope that helps!


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## JennybugJennifer

I've for sure decided to just stick to one baby froggy and my two fish  I am far too overwhelmed with what I have. Plus I can't be buying all the stuff for another decent QT
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

Man froggers dinner time is painfully slow. 
He ate though or well is now  two days down. 
But danggg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

*giggle* Yes. . .it does take them some time to eat. One of the reasons why it can be difficult to keep them fed in a community tank. By the time they find their food - the other fish have already eaten it all! Just as long as he's eating. . . all is well!


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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> *giggle* Yes. . .it does take them some time to eat. One of the reasons why it can be difficult to keep them fed in a community tank. By the time they find their food - the other fish have already eaten it all! Just as long as he's eating. . . all is well!


Yes he eats wonderfully. I really think in the couple days that I've been feeding him in the cup that he's gotten a little more plump  I'll take a picture. But I thought I saw a difference this morning. And I'm soooooooo glad I just took everyone out because I honestly think he got little to nothing with my Betta in there. My Betta is a pig plus would scavenge the bottom all day long and I couldn't really hide the food, big mess!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Hooray for Frogger! It sounds like everything is turning around, and your frog is doing great now that he's on his own with the proper food! Now just sit back and enjoy your new friend - but don't forget to continue with your water changes RELIGIOUSLY. A cycling tank is a dangerous thing to frogs and fishes. Once your initial nitrogen cycle is settled, I think you'll be just fine. Good work!


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## JennybugJennifer

What is the recommended water changes per week for his 2.5?
This is him this morning:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

I have to repeat here that it's really difficult to advise you because your tank is cycling and you don't have any way of testing to see how quickly the water is getting soiled. Until the tanks have established bacterial colonies. . . you'll want to do daily changes of at least 50%, I'd think?

BUT I'm really NOT sure! I keep hoping that someone with more experience will show up to give you better direction on this. I've never cycled or maintained a tank of that size with a frog. You might want to ask on the betta forum. They often have smaller tanks, and frogs, and someone there may be able to point you in the right direction. I don't want to steer you wrong, and I'm new at this, too.

You really should make your next purchase a liquid test kit, though. I can't stress how important this is. . .


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## SnowySurface

When I had my 1 gallon set ups I did 2 50% and 1 100% a week. Since you have a 2.5 gallon, you should be good with 1 50% and 1 100% with gravel cleaning a week.


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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> I have to repeat here that it's really difficult to advise you because your tank is cycling and you don't have any way of testing to see how quickly the water is getting soiled. Until the tanks have established bacterial colonies. . . you'll want to do daily changes of at least 50%, I'd think?
> 
> BUT I'm really NOT sure! I keep hoping that someone with more experience will show up to give you better direction on this. I've never cycled or maintained a tank of that size with a frog. You might want to ask on the betta forum. They often have smaller tanks, and frogs, and someone there may be able to point you in the right direction. I don't want to steer you wrong, and I'm new at this, too.
> 
> You really should make your next purchase a liquid test kit, though. I can't stress how important this is. . .


I understand, I already added it to my pet grocery list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

SnowySurface said:


> When I had my 1 gallon set ups I did 2 50% and 1 100% a week. Since you have a 2.5 gallon, you should be good with 1 50% and 1 100% with gravel cleaning a week.


Ok thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whatwhat

Hello again, I have bad news ;( After trying for hours the poor adf died, I didn't even want the store to replace it because I didn't trust them. All of their fogs looked very skinny and sick, I don't know why I bought it there ;/
I was wondering if I should but it from my local aquarium store instead? They are very good and the frogs look healthier there. They also know what they are talking about unlike some stores -_- What should I look out for this time? I can't have what happened to my last frogs ever happen again ;(


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## Chesh

Oh no! I'm so terribly sorry to hear that he didn't make it *hugs* At least you know that you tried your best to help him, and he was looking better and eating well toward the end. I'm sure he died happier than he was when you brought him home, and you should be happy for that, at least. :-(

You bought him there because you didn't know any better, now that you do - I agree with your choice not to buy from them again. . . It seems unlikely that they are keeping healthy frogs there, though it may be that they came into the shop unwell from the breeder. If I were you I'd talk to the manager and ask some questions. It may be that they don't even realize that their frogs are in bad shape (though they should know better), and it can't hurt to try to get them to change their practices for the well-being of these beautiful creatures. 

First and foremost, I would caution you to wait before buying another. You as of yet do not have a fully cycled tank. Frogs are very sensitive to toxins in their water, and it is never a good idea to put one into a cycling tank. You should also be sure to have your water testing kit in hand so that you can be certain that you are putting him into good conditions before ever bringing him home. It_ is_ possible to get a frog through the cycle and keep him healthy - I also got my frog before I knew anything about cycling - but it's hard to do, and not fair to put any creature through that mess. It is very likely that the stress I caused my creature(s) by my own ignorance will shorten their ultimate lives. Now that I know better, I will NEVER do it again. 

If you look back at the first post on this thread, Gizmo has some good information up there. I'll put up a post on general signs and symptoms of illness in ADFs - to the best of my knowledge. It will be good to have on here, in the hopes it could help someone else as well. I'm still new at this, too - so hopefully others can add to it and we can have a nice comprehensive list of things people should look out for in keeping healthy froggies. . .

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. . .


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## Chesh

*Illness in African Dwarf Frogs*

Here is a kind of general list I've compiled of the signs and symptoms of sickness in African Dwarf Frogs. I hope that this is able to help someone out there, and that others add to it (or correct me if I'm wrong on anything), so that we can have a fairly comprehensive and easily accessible stockpile of information for anyone who is purchasing a new friend, or trying to treat an ill one. . .

:-D





Though it is normal for your ADF to float at the top of the tank for short periods of time, be wary if you notice him spending all of his time up there. If he is seen floating at the top of the tank continuously, this is a sign of difficulty breathing, illness, or poor water conditions. Other things to look for are faded colors or redness, listlessness, lack of appetite, cloudy eyes, bloated or swollen stomach, peeling or uneven skin shedding, and failure to flee and hide when startled or capture is attempted. 

The first thing to do if you suspect your frog is sick is to test the levels of ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates in the tank. A WATER TESTING KIT IS NECESSARY if you are to keep these creatures. If you see _any_ reading for ammonia or nitrites, or if your nitrates read above 30, do an emergency water change to get the levels down as quickly as possible. The amount of water to be changed varies depending on how high the levels are. You must be careful to do this as gently as possible, so as not to stress the frog out any more than you have to. Keep the hood lights turned off, as frogs prefer a dimly lit area, and this will help the frog remain calm. Once you’re sure that the toxins in the water are not the problem, watch to see how the frog reacts. It seems that in most cases, these sensitive creatures are reacting to dirty water, rather than an actual illness. Don’t let it rest there – dirty water can lead to many severe problems and even death! Pay attention to the water in the tank, and always do a partial water change at least once a week – possibly more if your tank is small or unfiltered.
​ If your frog seems more floaty than normal and seems to be having trouble getting to the bottom of the tank, this is often a result of constipation, trapped air in their bellies, or over-eating. In these cases, fast the frog for a day or two and it should resolve itself. If the frog is very bloated, it is likely due to some sort of blockage in his intestinal tract from eating freeze-dried or pelleted foods, or from Dropsy. I’m not sure if there’s anything that can be done for a frog with Dropsy, though I’ve read that it can be possible to use a syringe to aspirate excess fluid from the stomach – I don’t think that’s something I’d be comfortable trying without an expert’s help! Dropsy is caused by kidney failure, which is the end-result of a bacterial infection caused by poor water conditions. Let me repeat that I’m a novice frog-owner, and have not personally experienced any sickness yet (and hope never to have the chance!), so some of this information may not be quite accurate, so be sure to seek help if your frog is sick or injured!
​ If you notice that your frog has red on its underside or on its arms and legs, this is often caused by a bacterial infection called Red Leg, and should be treated with antibiotics, though it seems that even with treatment, the frog’s chance of survival is slim. Again – please correct me if I’m in error here, as I have never had to deal with any of this first-hand, and the information here is being pooled from what I remember after having scoured various sources for information!
​ One more very important thing that needs to be mentioned before I stop going on about things that can kill your little frogs. . . this is a big, important, and fatal one that I highly recommend anyone considering owning (or who already owns) any frog become well-versed in. It is called the _*Chytrid Fungus.*_ You may not realize it yet, but you’ve probably already heard of this terrible disease on your local news. Chytrid is a very broad fungus category, the actual fungus strain that is affecting frogs was discovered in 1999, and named Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (referred to as BD). It is of major concern, because it has affected most of the world’s amphibian species and has had a devastating effect on frog populations (even unto extinction) the world over. A frog who has been exposed to BD develops a disease called Chytridiomycosis (Chytrid for short). Once infected, the fungus feeds on the Keratin that is inside the frog’s top layer of skin. Without the Keratin, the frog’s skin thickens. This makes it difficult for the frog to breathe through its skin, but even more devastating for ADF’s (as they are able to take air from the surface) is the problem of electrolyte regulation. Frogs absorb and regulate the amount of electrolytes (like sodium and potassium) by passing them through their skin. As their skin thickens, they are left unable to manage the electrolytes. Internal build-ups of potassium will cause the frog’s heart to stop beating, and so he will die. There are a few species of frog that seem unaffected by this virus, though the spores of the fungus are present on their skin. Most notably, African CLAWED frogs. Many fish and pet stores carry both ADF and ACFs. When this is the case, it is often found that the Dwarf population has been infected with spores from their Clawed neighbors. The spores of this fungus are tenacious, and spread very easily from tank to tank – even when one is absolutely aware of the risk and being cautious.
​ It can take up to 3 months for the fungus to kill. Symptoms of the Chytrid fungus include lethargy, lack of appetite, and rough flaking skin (often noticed during shedding), some frogs will try to climb out of the water or thrash at the top of the tank. There are some treatment options available for frogs that have this disease, and I’m doing quite a bit of research into this right now. I will post when I feel I’ve gained some further understanding of what can be done for these poor frogs! If you have had a healthy ADF for some time, and wish to add another to the group, please be sure to _quarantine the new arrival in a separate tank for a period of 3 months _to be certain that he does not infect any of your current frogs. During this time be very careful not to use the same buckets, nets, thermometers, gravel vacuums, etc. or _in any way get water from the quarantined frog’s tank into the healthy frog’s tanks._ This disease does _NOT_ affect fish, but the spores of this fungus can live in the tank water for 3 months even _without the frog present._ Also be very careful when disposing of waste water from the tank of an infected frog (or one in quarantine). _DO NOT POUR IT IN YOUR GARDEN_, as you run the very real risk of spreading this deadly disease to your entire population of local frogs. It is recommended that you treat any waste water from an infected frog’s tank with bleach for one hour before sending it down the drain.​ Please don’t let these dire-sounding warnings deter you from purchasing one of these amazing animals, but be wary when you go to the shop. Look at the frogs in the tank, judge their health, ask questions, don’t purchase a frog from a tank in which you see evidence of sickness or death, and NEVER attempt to ‘rescue’ a sick frog.
​ To ease your mind after all of that, I should note that the common consensus is that ADFs are fairly sturdy little creatures, and it takes a bit to make them sick. They seem to be most susceptible to bacterial infections and fungus. These conditions are usually brought about by stress caused by overcrowding and/or poor water conditions (with the obvious exception of Chytrid). If you take care to keep their water clean and clear of toxins, and be careful not to put to many in too small a space, they should do just fine! Still, it’s always advisable to keep a close eye on any creatures you care for. An illness caught in its early stages is far more likely to be treatable than one left too long.


Hope that helps someone out there! Feel free to post more information up if you have it to share - or correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still a novice frog-keeper. . .​


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## whatwhat

I dont have a test kit, but the people at persmart said that my tank was cycled. What test kit should i get for a 10 gallon fish tank? My other fish are healthy and doing fine, but ill get a test kit just incase i guess.


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## Chesh

The best is API's Master Freshwater test kit. It'll cost around $30, but should last you a very long time. Do get one, and test your tank(s) on a regular basis - there is no other way to be sure of what the conditions of the water are without it. Relying on the fish (or frog) to let you know when things are bad is not the way to go, as it can often be too late for them by the time they show signs of poisoning from the toxins in their water.


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## Chesh

I'm sorry - I replied to you thinking that you were someone else who has been having similar problems with her frog, though hers did start to eat, and I hope is doing okay now. She's the one who didn't have a cycled tank - Sorry I got the two of you mixed. . .

So yeah! Since your tank IS cycled, that changes things a bit, though it's still a really good idea to have that test kit in-hand - for your fish OR your frogs. 

You know now to make sure they aren't looking very thin or pale. Don't buy from a tank that has a dead frog in it. . . if the frog doesn't run away when they try to catch it, that's a bad sign, and don't get one that's hanging out near the surface of the tank for too long. . . 

The majority of 'illness' in these frogs is due to poor water conditions, it seems. . . so really, the only way to be sure it's healthy (especially if chytrid fungus is a problem) is to bring it home, keep the water clean, and keep a close eye on it for a few months. Chytrid can't harm your fish, nor can they be carriers for it - HOWEVER it can live in a tank that an infected frog has been in for a period of 3 months after the sick frog is gone - so if I were you I'd wait 3-4 months before buying another frog just to be sure - it would be so sad if you brought a healthy frog home and it got the sickness from spores your old frog left behind. Frogs with chytrid tend to stop eating toward the end, so it is possible - even likely - that your last frog(s) had it, and you'll want to be careful with the water from that tank for a few months until the spores die off. . .and yes. Absolutely under NO circumstances buy from the store where you got the others again. What a shame. . .

It's always a good idea to double-check with the shop and find out what they feed their frogs while they have them. That way you can get started on the right foot by offering it something it's already familiar with, and then try to switch it up as they get used to living with you.  Good luck!


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## JennybugJennifer

Frogger seems to be doing wonderfully now and eats every night and is active. Responds when startled, but he takes a bit to wake up if he's asleep
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

JennybugJennifer said:


> Frogger seems to be doing wonderfully now and eats every night and is active. Responds when startled, but he takes a bit to wake up if he's asleep
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HOORAY for FROGGER!!! I'm so happy he's doing well! :-D


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## JennybugJennifer

Much better  I'm very happy he is eating
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

He's a feisty little stinker now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolfie305

So I just got two of these little guys today and just finished setting up their 5.5 gallon QT tank. Once I know they are healthy, I'll move into the 10 gallon with Paarthurnax.

I added water conditioner, a heater, a small filter, and lots of floating silk plants and a log. Is it okay to add them?

:3


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## Chesh

Sounds good to me! Congratulations on your new little friends!


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## Wolfie305

Thank you very much! They are so cute :3


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## JennybugJennifer

Question: I did a water change because my nitrate was a little high 
And I thought I was done so I used my hand sanitizer but just a tiny bit, and it was dry. But I couldn't find Frogger so I reached in to list his hide(I found him)
Do I need to do an emergency water change because of the sanitizer?


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## JennybugJennifer

I saw a half gallon set up a petsmart containing two ADFS , one Betta, and one other small fish :/


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## Chesh

JennybugJennifer said:


> Question: I did a water change because my nitrate was a little high
> And I thought I was done so I used my hand sanitizer but just a tiny bit, and it was dry. But I couldn't find Frogger so I reached in to list his hide(I found him)
> Do I need to do an emergency water change because of the sanitizer?


EEEK! I would change the water _just_ to be safe - I honestly have no idea, but I'm really careful to always wash my hands before touching my tank water. . .

And half-gallon tanks shouldn't even exist. Poor little guys. . .

HEY! You got your test kit! Good job!


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## Wolfie305

When it comes time to put the ADF's and Paarth (betta) together, I just have a question about feeding. 

The froggies' food won't be deadly to Paarth if he ends up eating some, will it? Does it sink? I just hope the frogs get their food and Paarth doesn't eat it all/


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> When it comes time to put the ADF's and Paarth (betta) together, I just have a question about feeding.
> 
> The froggies' food won't be deadly to Paarth if he ends up eating some, will it? Does it sink? I just hope the frogs get their food and Paarth doesn't eat it all/


It won't be toxic to your Betta at all
But you have to WATCH your frog eat because I had this issue and my frog was starving and my Betta was fat

I would cup your Betta and float him at the top I the cup while you feed your frog
I would feed him frozen-thawed bloodworms( I feed in a cup so he can get it and doesn't hurt his nose)
I've found my frog won't eat the pellets or any sort of pellet.


Chesherca said:


> EEEK! I would change the water _just_ to be safe - I honestly have no idea, but I'm really careful to always wash my hands before touching my tank water. . .
> 
> And half-gallon tanks shouldn't even exist. Poor little guys. . .
> 
> HEY! You got your test kit! Good job!


I did but only a cheap one for now  the one you suggested and I want is 33.00$ so I have to wait. My Bettas tanks were excellent but froggers nitrate and nitrite were high ( I used all the strips already grrrrr. I didn't change his water(after using santitizer, he got a 50% change today before the hand sanitizer accident because of the nitrates/nitrites) because I was late for an appOintment and he seems ok (( I feel awful.


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## Wolfie305

Ooh I can feed them bloodworms? I have the frozen kind for my bettas


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> Ooh I can feed them bloodworms? I have the frozen kind for my bettas


Not freeze dried, they can cause bloat but yes the frozen blocks of bloodworms is perfect


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## Wolfie305

Oh yeah I don't do freeze dried for my bettas for the same problem. Frozen and thawed only.


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> Oh yeah I don't do freeze dried for my bettas for the same problem. Frozen and thawed only.


Yep that's perfect, just make sure to watch him eat. And only feed at dinner time since they're nocturnal. And if you feed before bed give yourself about an hour to feed and watch him then remove leftovers. Also watch him so he doesn't overeat. His tummy will bulge on the left side. 
Again cup your Betta boy


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## Chesh

Ahhhh! Jennybug! I am so PROUD of you! You've learned well, dear! I'm so happy to know that your frog is doing well!


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## Wolfie305

So I woke up this morning and one of my guys is missing a front flipper and his back flipper on the same side looks white and torn!? Could this be from the filter? :<


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## Chesh

Oh my goodness! It is a possibility - they're not in with the betta right now, are they? I've read that some betta can be aggressive toward the frogs. My frog had a filter accident when he was new to me, and one of his flippers is torn now, but he seems well. Do you have pictures of him? Is he okay?!


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## Wolfie305

No they are by themselves for a while until I know they're not carrying any diseases. They're in a 5.5 gallon. He seems alright as he is moving, but he is not using his back flipper  

Its raining and dark here and the tank is away from sunlight, but I'll see if I can snag a picture.


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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> Ahhhh! Jennybug! I am so PROUD of you! You've learned well, dear! I'm so happy to know that your frog is doing well!


Why thank you!!  
You helped me so much. I wouldn't know anything without your help
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> So I woke up this morning and one of my guys is missing a front flipper and his back flipper on the same side looks white and torn!? Could this be from the filter? :<


It sounds like a filter accident to me  
Also to reinforce the comment above about mean Bettas, watch them closely when ou put them with the Betta! I put my ADF with jaws and he picked on my ADF relentlessly, biting him, chasing him, more biting. D:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

No, Wolfie - if he's okay, just let him be - pictures aren't necessary. You know the rules - keep the lights dimmed so he feels comfortable and can rest. Keep a CLOSE eye on him - and the filter. After my frog had his accident, he was very weak and I had to baffle the filter suction quite a bit to keep him clear of it. Keep an eye out for any redness in the area. . . he still has all of his toes? Can you tell if anything looks broken? If he's still swimming, it sounds like you're okay. Just try to minimize his stress as much as possible over the next few days and keep a sharp eye on him - for as tiny as these little guys are, they're tougher than they look!



JennybugJennifer said:


> Why thank you!!  You helped me so much. I wouldn't know anything without your help
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're so sweet! I'm very glad I could help you out, Jennybug - and so happy that your Frogger is doing well now!


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## Wolfie305

Thank you so much <3 

Just checked on him again today a few minutes ago. He was at the top resting on a leaf, so I gently poked the water to make sure he was still okay. He really didn't seem to care that I touched him, which worries me. Although, they're nocturnal(?) so maybe he was just sleepy?

I can't really tell about his back flipper still. Looks like the claws are still there. I need to really watch him when he's active - at night I assume?


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## Chesh

Wolfie, when my frog got into a filter accident, he was in TERRIBLE shape. He was extremely pale, swimming in a very 'floaty' way, and obviously having trouble battling the suction from a filter that he previously had no problems with. In my case, the filter was covered with nylon mesh, but the entire intake fell off and into the tank - poor Speckles was sucked INTO my HOB filter, and possibly could have been in there for hours before I saw what had happened. It was a very dramatic, frightening accident - frustrating after I had done everything to avoid a filter incident! 

I moved him to a hospital tank in a dark and quiet area in my home - out of the community, and 'helped' poor little Specks to the top of a bit of Hornwort floating at the top of the tank. He also did not avoid me or try to get away. . .he was too weak. . . and he rested there (with the lights out) for an entire day before coming back down. With his injuries, it was easier for him to be close to the water line so that he didn't have to swim up for a breath of air. By the 48 hour mark, he was starting to LOOK normal again (regaining color), but still very inactive for what I had come to expect from him - and refusing to eat. Overnight on the 3rd day I got him to finally take a tiny bit of food. . . soon after he started acting and eating normally again. About a week after the accident he did a 'damage shed' to remove the skin that had gotten messed up during his ordeal. . .

The point is that today he is 100% FINE, except for a tear in one of his flippers, which does not seem to affect him at all. . .really, there is nothing that you can do but leave him alone, keep the lights out so he can rest peacefully, and hope/pray for the best. These frogs are a lot tougher than they seem in many ways - hopefully he's just taking it easy and letting his body heal. I'd just leave him alone for now... but be observant, and keep an eye out for any redness on his skin.

Just for the record, I've never seen my frog sleep at the top of the tank, though he does do his zen thing up there from time to time when he's in his happy place. He spends less time up there now that he's gotten a bit older, and from what I've read younger frogs will spend more time at the surface than older ones - this doesn't apply to the accident, though.

They ARE more active at night, so I like to feed mine at around 6ish in the evening. I've found that feeding him when he naturally starts waking up for the day (lol) ensures that I get to watch him for a while before *I* go to bed at night - though he will happily take food at whatever time of day I offer it, and he IS active during the day, too. . . just not as much happy swimmy froggy action as in the evenings/nights - and I really LIKE to see him being froggy!

Although you're right - one of the signs of sickness or injury is that the frog doesn't try to escape when you try to catch or touch it, in the future you might find that this no longer applies. I hand-fed Specks for a bit when he was in a community tank, and at this point he comes running every time he sees my hands in his tank (even though I gave him his own space months ago). When I do my water changes, I have to work around him, because he shows no fear - and he's healthy as a horse (um, frog)! Right now your frog isn't feeling well, and so won't be trying to get away - just leave him. I just wanted to mention it so that you know it isn't ALWAYS the case - and a friendly frog is a super sweet thing to enjoy!

Has he eaten since he got hurt? If he eats, it's a good sign that he's starting to feel better. Try to feed him tonight - like NOW, lol - and keep an eye on him for a while after and see what he does . . .

Hopefully something in this entirely too long post will help you out! I wish I could tell you something more -I don't know where our Gizmo has gotten to lately - she's had WAAAAY more experience with these frogs than I. . .

I really hope he pulls through.  Poor little guy! *hugs*


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## JennybugJennifer

OMGGGGGGGGGGGG FROGGER IS SINGING TO ME
that's the coolest sound ever!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennybugJennifer

Frogger singing!! - YouTube
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

That is sooooo awesome!!!    *squeeeeee*
I think your little Frogger is turning into a very happy little BOY!!!


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## Chesh

Wolfie - how's your injured little friend doing? I'd love an update, hope he is well. . .


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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> That is sooooo awesome!!!    *squeeeeee*
> I think your little Frogger is turning into a very happy little BOY!!!


Yeah!! Man I do NOT regret having got him even though it was hard at first. Omg he sang his little heart out last night!
Does singing indicate content/happiness?
Did the video work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Yes, the video worked perfectly! Frogger is so cute! 

I don't know that it *exactly* indicates happiness, but it DOES mean HE is looking for a mate. My theory is that he wouldn't be 'in the mood' if he wasn't feeling. . . well. . .chipper! Just a theory - but it sounds good to me! Way to go!


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## JennybugJennifer

Chesherca said:


> Yes, the video worked perfectly! Frogger is so cute!
> 
> I don't know that it *exactly* indicates happiness, but it DOES mean HE is looking for a mate. My theory is that he wouldn't be 'in the mood' if he wasn't feeling. . . well. . .chipper! Just a theory - but it sounds good to me! Way to go!


Thank you!!!! What a long stressful but fulfilling journey  
I made my mom go listen to him! I was so happy!!
I have a cycling question I posted in another forum that I wanted to run by you but I'm just going to copy and paste
I have one little ADF alone in a 2.5 gallon tank(I realize is a bit small) which has been set up since approx April 20th but a couple weeks after that because I was under educated I changed my filter media. But haven't done that since. Just 100% water changes. Would it be better to buy another tank with a filter and start over? Or just keep working with what I have? I have no idea how far along the cycling is per say but I seem to run high nitrate/nitrite and low ammonia (I need to buy a new test kit so don't know the perimeters at the moment)
Also he just started singing last night(amazing) does this indicate adulthood? Should I feed every other day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

From what I understand, if he is singing then he has matured (which happens at around 9 months of age). Adult frogs DO need less food than juvies, but since yours was malnourished when you got him, I'd say keep feeding 1x daily for a little while until he gets a little bit plumper. He probably won't GROW very much more, but he should fill out. I couldn't really tell from your video if he's gained any weight (though I assume that he has to have since he started eating well), but his sides should be gently rounded - even when he hasn't eaten. If you feel confident that he has gained enough weight, maybe start skipping one day a week, and slowly go up from there until you're feeding him every other day. Some people do continue to feed their frogs smaller portions daily through adulthood - so that's an option, too.

As far as the cycling is concerned, there is really NO way of knowing if your current tank is fully cycled unless you have that test kit in hand. Sorry. . . I know that isn't what you wanted to hear! If/when you do get a testkit, send me a PM and I'll be happy to walk you through the process step by step until you and Frogger safely come through it. I know you were considering getting a new/larger tank . . . I can't say that this is a bad idea, however. . . if you only have $30 to spend, I'd say it is far more important to keep the tanks you have currently and purchase the API Master Freshwater testing kit. The kit will last you quite some time - and once the tank is cycled, you can use filter media/gravel/ornaments from your old (fully cycled) tank to cycle the new one far more quickly and safely. Depending on how often you've been doing 100% water changes, the tank may not have been able to establish any bacterial colonies at all. . . the only way to find out is to test!

Hope this helps!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I think I may have accidentally unsubscribed from this thread.. I feel horrible guys!! I don't have time to read through the posts right now, but if anyone had any specific questions not answered, please let me know! 

Again I am so very sorry I have been gone so long!! Please forgive me!!


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## Chesh

Giz! Good to see you back! I *think* we've managed to muddle through without you okay, but I MISSED you!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! I missed you guys too! I still feel terrible that I wasn't here to help, but as long as you are good, I will just stick around and help as I can! Lol!


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## JennybugJennifer

Welcome back giz!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol thanks!!


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## Wolfie305

I can't remember if I posted this yet, but I lost the little ADF that had the filter accident a few days after it happened </3 

A few days ago I got my remaining guy a new buddy (he was the last one from the same stock I got my first two from) and so far so good with the two of them. Hopefully they won't have any more accidents.

I have another question though. I'm getting a new betta boy tomorrow that I adopted from Moonshadow and the 5.5 gallon (where the frogs currently reside while they QT) is the tank I plan on putting him in. Would it be okay to put him in there with the two frogs, or would that be overstocking? 

I should wait 3 months before moving the frogs to the 10 gallon, correct?


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## freemike

Here is my Albino frog I'm not sure of the sex. He/She is with 3 other male ADF's in a frog/guppie tank I just set up.


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> I can't remember if I posted this yet, but I lost the little ADF that had the filter accident a few days after it happened </3
> 
> A few days ago I got my remaining guy a new buddy (he was the last one from the same stock I got my first two from) and so far so good with the two of them. Hopefully they won't have any more accidents.
> 
> I have another question though. I'm getting a new betta boy tomorrow that I adopted from Moonshadow and the 5.5 gallon (where the frogs currently reside while they QT) is the tank I plan on putting him in. Would it be okay to put him in there with the two frogs, or would that be overstocking?
> 
> I should wait 3 months before moving the frogs to the 10 gallon, correct?


I've heard having a 5.5 with two frogs is ok but would be a bit overcrowded with another so I'd say maybe not. But I'm new to ADFs. And yes wait 3 months


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## Wolfie305

Well, it would be a betta, not another frog. Not sure if that makes a difference though XD


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> Well, it would be a betta, not another frog. Not sure if that makes a difference though XD


I don't think it does


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## Wolfie305

Seems my guys don't like their food - they see it sink, go after it (and usually miss), and then spit it out. I got them Tetrafauna ReptoMin Frog sinking granules..


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## JennybugJennifer

Wolfie305 said:


> Seems my guys don't like their food - they see it sink, go after it (and usually miss), and then spit it out. I got them Tetrafauna ReptoMin Frog sinking granules..


I feed frozen thawed blood worms and brine shrimp, alternating nights and mine seems to like them


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## Gizmothefreaky

Awww!! I'm so sorry for your loss Wolfie... But I would not reccomend putting a betta with two frogs in that small a space, especially if the frogs are still in qt.

Mike!!! Omg that leusistic reminds me of mine! I used to have one just like that, his name was Casper. X3 after his mate died he got super depressed and wouldn't eat, he eventually died of red leg, so just keep an eye out for that. 

I feed my frogs a mix of beef heart, sinking shrimp pellets, sinking frog pellets, and thawed blood worms, they also get whatever the betta misses when he is eating lol!


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## Chesh

Awww, Wolfie! I'm sorry to hear he didn't make it  I was hoping he'd be okay.

Congrats on the new guy, though. . . CUTE!

A word about the QT. . . the 3 month time frame is set so long because of the chytrid fungus. If all of your frogs are together already, then keeping them in QT longer than the standard few weeks isn't going to do any good, as the fungus only affects frogs  I agree with the PP - the 5.5 is a bit on the smaller side for what you want to do.

My frog refuses to eat sinking pellets, too. Utterly and completely refuses to recognize them as food. I also feed a variety of wet-frozen (and defrosted!) bloodworm, brine, mysis, krill, frozen tilapia - he'll seemingly eat anything else, as long as it's not a pellet! Some have great luck on pellets, but they never worked for mine.

I don't know if you have them living together already, but I just wanted to add that while some people have great luck keeping Betta with ADF, others have had nothing but trouble. Be sure to keep a close eye out for possible aggression, and to make sure that your frog(s) are getting their fair share of food, and the betta isn't getting too much.

You'll have to post a pic of your setup when you get it all up and running


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## Wolfie305

Thank you guys! Seeing as how the disease only affects frogs, do you think it would be okay to move them into the 10 gallon with Paarth? I definitely don't want to overstock. 

Hmm, I'll have to try some other stuff then. I know I have frozen blood worms, but I'll have to go pick up the other stuff for them. What the heck is beef heart and where can I get it? LOL.

And yeah, Paarthurnax is actually a really docile betta for male. If he sees himself in the mirror or another betta, he just stares and kinda starts to back away. Some dragon scale he is!! LOL. So that's why I decided to put him in the 10 gallon with the froggies. I'm sure he won't bully them, but feeding time I'll have to keep an eye out because he's a little piggy!


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## Gizmothefreaky

i keep a rather fully stocked tank... It is a ten gallon, but it is stuffed full of live plants and a filter, and gets weekly water changes. In this tank i have five kuhli loaches, six cories, two ADFs and a betta. now i have figured out a system to make sure that everyone is getting the correct amount of food. On the castle decoration i feed the cories, then i put the frog's food inside their log. The loaches get fed right before lights out, and that food goes under the castle where they hang out. so far i have not had one case of illness or starvation and this set up is six months and counting.  i do NOT recommend this set up for a beginner, but i just wanted to point ut that i have been able to keep bottom feeders AND a betta with ADFs with no problem. 


Wolfie- If your betta is calm, then you can attempt to move the frogs in with him, but always have a backup just in case. lol


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## Wolfie305

So I put the froggies in with Paarth and so far so good. Is it normal for Paarth to be curious and attempt to nip at them? Because when I put them in and they sank down, he saw them, slowly approached, and looked at Farkas (frog) like, "wtf is this." Then he nipped him >_> 

The frogs are doing a pretty good job of avoiding Paarth and Paarth doesn't seem interested anymore, but I would like to see what goes on when I'm not in the room (because Paarth spends all of his time wiggling at me).


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## Gizmothefreaky

That is perfectly normal. Not to worry. Now if he was doing it constantly and hounding them, then I would be worried.


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## Wolfie305

Okay cool :3 Just checked on them and Paarth was sleeping, doesn't even care xDD. Don't think the frogs have figured out that they have a few logs to hide under though - hopefully they will soon.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! They will figure it all out while you are sleeping, no worries. XD


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## Wolfie305

They have! They were in it yesterday. And inside Paarth's tree.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yay!! See I told you they would settle in well. X3


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## Chesh

Three cheers for happy critters!!! Now. . . it's picture time!!! Show us that setup!


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## JennybugJennifer

Woot I finally got a 10g on sale but still need a heater and divider. Would it be ok to divide it 3 ways?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Dividing it three ways is fine, but not with frogs it it, it would be overstocked. I have two ten gallon tanks divided four ways, but all that are in them is just bettas. Lol!


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## JennybugJennifer

Oh ok. I was gunna do Frogger jaws and pearl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Why not divide it just in half then, rather than three ways. I thought you were talking about putting three bettas in there with frog(s). Lol! Two bettas and a frog is fine.


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## JennybugJennifer

Because Frogger was starving when he was house wit pearl and jaws bites


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## Gizmothefreaky

Ooh! Okay lol. Yeah go ahead and divide it three ways then.


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## Chesh

*Meet my new friend!*

I finally got ADF #2!!! He has been named Freckles, and he is currently living in the 10g QT tank, and will remain there until autumn, when he'll join my other ADF, Speckles in the 5g tank. 

Isn't he the CUTEST THING EVER??!


















First meal in his new home - bloodworms will make ANY frog smile!










Here's the 10g QT tank where he is right now. You can see how tiny he is. . . he makes that mossball look HUGE!










Here's a shot of Specks in the 5g...










And... bloodworms for HER, too!










HUZZAH, FROGS!


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## SpookyTooth

I LOVE both the tanks! Congratulations on the new one and I hope he does well in quarantine!


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## Chesh

Thanks, Spooks! I hope so, too! I'm so impatient to have them both together. . . 3 months in QT is TOOOOO LONG!


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## Olympia

Chesh, first Princess Shimmerblue's tank, now your QT tank is gorgeous? Where do you find the time to make everything so pretty!


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## Chesh

Olympia said:


> Chesh, first Princess Shimmerblue's tank, now your QT tank is gorgeous? Where do you find the time to make everything so pretty!


LYMPIE!!! You are always way too complimentary! Love ya, hon!







You were SUPPOSED to be looking at the world's most adorable FROG, tho!!! Honestly, the QT tank changes from week to week. And it ISN'T that pretty! My 29g tank is my pride and joy - I work hard on that tank. If you like the look of that one, you'll like 'em all, because the same black back-round, black sand, and plants have been used in Speckle's 5g and the QT tank -_ they all look the same_, lol! I can't afford to do every tank from scratch, so as the plants fill in the 29, I pull them and drop them in the QT tank to grow out, until I figure out what to do with them, then place them wherever (or give them away) from there. . . if there is a critter in the QT, I try to arrange things to make them feel happiest, but that's the only thought that goes into it. Shimsy's tank is the ONLY one that's any different, and that's because I made it for a 5 year old. The next project is gonna have a whole 'nother look. . . I'm excited to start that one. As for time. . . I dunno, I _don't_ have any time, I do everything during my weekly water changes. The plants. . . they're what make things look nice, and the ones I have don't seem to need very much attention (at the moment, anyway). Thanks for such SWEEEEET sentiments, though! And I like your little fishy sig. . . CUTE! I swear your betta have the cutest names!


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## Olympia

Oh deary, please private message me these new tank plans, I gotta hear this! 
Also, my real life name is Olimpia, and my real life nick name is Limpi, so you are pretty on the spot with that one!

They frog is cute too, your camera makes them shine! Such a great look at the little guys!


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## Chesh

Haha! CUTE nickname  MUCH easier to spell that way. I'm a fool for nicknames, so was hoping not to offend, lol! Hmmm, what if I decide to keep the new tank TOP SECRET CLASSIFIED information until the grand reveal?  I'll PM you, maybe you can help me figure out exactly what I'm doing. I haven't *quite* gotten my plans down 100% just yet.

And yes. FROGS! *swoons* I'm so in love. . .


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## Olympia

Excited for this!

Also, I have no frogs. I do not belong here.
I also do not care, I'm here for photos.


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## Chesh

Well... you could always get one! You'll be glad you did, they're SOOOO sweet! I'll PM you tomorrow. I got lost. . . *hugs*
ETA: Ummmm, it IS tomorrow. That's how lost I am. I'll PM you LATER


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## Chesh

Have you guys seen this yet:

 *Council bans dwarf aquatic frogs over salmonella fears

:roll:
*


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## Olympia

Youch. That's a hit a little too close to home for me. Birds carry salmonella as well as reptiles and amphibians. But you know, it's in the feces, and I'm sure rubbing yourself in dog feces would get you sick as well. It's all about how careful one is.

Of course, directed at those stupid frog toy things I'm glad that means they won't be sold anymore there. It doesn't take long to get out of Markham and go to a pet store nearby, sneaky sneak some into your home if you want them.

It's unusual, Ontario is the "own any non native animal you want" province.


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## Chesh

You're right! There are SO many creatures that ought to be banned if the true worry is with salmonella. As mentioned in the article, it might perhaps be because the 'kits' are marketed for children, but. . . still! Ban the kits, not the critters! I'm an adult, and it's my RIGHT to get salmonella if I want it! *stamps foot*


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## JennybugJennifer

Question about my ten gallon. I have two heaters that heat up to five gallons, instead of buying yet another heater can I put one of mine on each side of the tank?


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## Chesh

*shrug* I dunno, Jen! It sounds logical enough! Can't hurt to give it a try - just keep a close eye on the temps in the tank. My frog's heater rarely kicks on, anyway - but I do feel safer having it in place  Let us know how it goes - then we'll all know!


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## freemike

Jenny that will work as long as both combined are 50 watts. I use two 50w in my 20 gallon long tank.


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## SageMyster

My ADF won't eat. ): I've had him for about two weeks now and even when I separate him from my Betta and put him in his own container, he won't eat his pellets. Is he going to starve? What do I do if he refuses to eat?


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## Chesh

BOTH of my ADF absolutley refuse to touch a single pellet, ever! However, they are more than happy to chow down on (defrosted) frozen bloodworm, brine shrimp, krill, whiteworm, mysis shrimp - even very small shreds of raw tilapia fillet! I suggest you get your froggy some frozen 'real' foods, and see how he does on those.

I'm betting you'll have much better luck. . . watch closely, though - ADF are slow eaters, you may have to feed him by hand or with a turkey-baster to make sure he gets some before the betta gobbles it up - and I promise you - the betta will LOVE these goodies, too!

I recommend wet-frozen foods, rather than freeze dried - there is some speculation that the freeze dried foods can lead to bloat. If you don't have the option for wet-frozen foods (even PetSmart has a freezer), make  sure you soak the freeze dried stuff before feeding. . .

Let us know how it goes! Poor little thing must be hungry by now!


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## SageMyster

What do you mean by 'defrosted' frozen blood worms? Do I keep the worms frosted and then take out a few and let them defrost before giving them to the frog, can I just buy dry blood worms, etc?


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## Olympia

I'd keep bloodworms frozen for best nutrition, and then take a bowl, some tank water, put em in the bowl, then scoop out the worms with something. They are processed with phosphates I hear which can cause algae blooms, plus it's less mess thawing them in a separate bowl.

I am a BAD person. There were no dwarf puffers in stock. I came home with 2 frogs for my 20 gallon. Hah. Haha. Was gonna buy one, but I'd have no where to QT a frog for 3 months if I ever wanted a second one. So two it was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ColleenT

My tank tested 0 for nitrates and nitrites and zero ammonia this morning, so i went and got my new frogs. And a new mossball. i am new to moss balls, but it looked like a good idea..i have other live plants and hoping they live for me. Frank is still in his bowl for now until the frogs prove they are all healthy. got them from the same tank at LFS and they look good, not too thin, and a few even ate the frozen defrosted bloodworms i gave them.


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## Chesh

Colleen - Congrats on your new froggies and mossball! They all look absolutley ADORABLE! Do they have names yet? Mossballs are awesome, and need very much of anything to thrive, so I'm sure it will do well for you.

You mentioned that you have 0 on nitrAtes, as well as the other two. This makes me a bit nervous, as it is usually indicative of a tank that hasn't been cycled yet. You'll want to pay very close attention over the next few weeks as your nitrogen cycle establishes, and do water changes as needed to keep ammonia and nitrIte levels down for the health of your frogs (For the health of your creatures, ammonia and nitrIte should be at 0, nitrAte should be under 20 or so). Unless you keep a small uncycled tank - I'm assuming Frank is a Betta? I don't *think* the betta can pick up any illnesses from the frogs, so you should be all right there, but the two species don't always play nice together, so be sure to watch closely until you're sure.

Your froggies DO look super chubby and healthily adorable!



SageMyster - They sell 'em in packs of little cubes in the freezer section of almost any fish store. 

One full cube will be WAY too much food for only one frog. What I do is pop out a cube, use a knife to slice about a quarter of it off (or however much you need) then wrap the remainder of the cube and put it back into the freezer for next time. 

Like Olympia said, you'll want to defrost it before you put it into the tank, because the water that it's packed in will only add waste to your water, and the frogs shouldn't eat them frozen, anyway. I defrost mine in a tea strainer - it doesn't take long!

I hope you get your poor little guy some food soon! He must be starving by now!



OLYMPIA!!! YOU GOT FROGGIES!!! HUZZAH!!! I don't think you're a bad person at all!!! You're gonna _love_ these little guys. . .and they'll prolly be easier to keep than those adorable Puffers, anyway! They're the cutest! Good call on getting two at once - QT is a PITA, and they're so much more fun in pairs, my two are adorable. (mine got dumped together for better or worse during the many days without power - crossing fingers that all goes well here!)


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## Olympia

Also, do people have trouble feeding them? Mine immediately started swimming around chomping on anything they saw. Mostly plant debris from rearranging. -sigh-
They are pretty chubby. And one has some skin hanging from his belly, I hope that's okay. Like he didn't shed in one piece.


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## ColleenT

Chesherca said:


> Colleen - Congrats on your new froggies and mossball! They all look absolutley ADORABLE! Do they have names yet? Mossballs are awesome, and need very much of anything to thrive, so I'm sure it will do well for you.
> 
> You mentioned that you have 0 on nitrAtes, as well as the other two. This makes me a bit nervous, as it is usually indicative of a tank that hasn't been cycled yet. You'll want to pay very close attention over the next few weeks as your nitrogen cycle establishes, and do water changes as needed to keep ammonia and nitrIte levels down for the health of your frogs (For the health of your creatures, ammonia and nitrIte should be at 0, nitrAte should be under 20 or so). Unless you keep a small uncycled tank - I'm assuming Frank is a Betta? I don't *think* the betta can pick up any illnesses from the frogs, so you should be all right there, but the two species don't always play nice together, so be sure to watch closely until you're sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Your froggies DO look super chubby and healthily adorable!


i had thought the cycle was complete b/c the nitrates and nitrites were zero. was i wrong? what would they be if the cycle is complete? i have live plants which i thought helped with keeping it healthy. i have not named them b/c i cannot tell them apart. Yes, Frank is my Betta. i wanted to let the frogs take over their own tank for a few days before adding Frank, so he is not territorial with them. Well, i don't know how he will be but want to reduce any problems that may arise)


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## Chesh

Here's a link to the beginner's guide to cycling. It will probably be able to explain things much better than I can!

Basically; fish, food, and plant wastes create ammonia - which is toxic to fish/frogs
A bacteria forms that converts the ammonia into nitrItes - which is ALSO toxic to fish/frogs
A bacteria THEN forms that converts the nitrItes into nitrAtes - which is NOT toxic to fish/frogs until it reaches VERY high levels.

In a fully cycled tank you should see:
Ammonia: 0 ppm
NitrIte: 0 ppm
NitrAte: usually between 7.5-20ppm (this TOTALLY depends on tank size/stocking)

As this cycle establishes in your tank, it is very unsafe for the creatures that live there. First the ammonia will 'spike' as the levels of wastes in the tank rise with nothing to stop it (be sure to do plenty of water changes to keep this number down for the frogs). When the next stage of the cycle begins, the ammonia will start to vanish, but the nitrIte levels will spike (be sure to do plenty of water changes to keep this number down for the frogs) Finally, at the last stage, the nitrAte levels will spike as the nitrIte levels fall. . . (again with the water changes), and finally, the nitrAtes will settle where they need to be to keep a balance in your tank, giving you a 0 reading on ammonia and nitrIte - and a low reading of nitrAtes. 

Live plants WILL and DO help with keeping things in check during cycling. They absorb the poisonous toxins from the water and convert it into their own food - so yay for live plants! But you'd need to have a LOT of live plants to absorb all of the nitrate in a fully cycled tank. 

There are many people around who can explain this stuff far better than I can! Check out that link, and hopefully one of them will pop by to help out soon! In the meantime, keep testing and if your levels start to rise, keep them down with water changes.

Out of curiosity, what size is the tank and how long has it been set up? Many people choose not to cycle smaller tanks, and prefer doing complete water changes every so often. This isn't my way, though, so maybe someone can help you there if that's the way you want to go.

Good call on adding Frank later, hopefully they'll get along swimmingly! And I'm sure you'll be able to tell your froggies apart soon! Can't wait to hear what names they get!


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## ColleenT

Chesherca said:


> Here's a link to the beginner's guide to cycling. It will probably be able to explain things much better than I can!
> 
> Basically; fish, food, and plant wastes create ammonia - which is toxic to fish/frogs
> A bacteria forms that converts the ammonia into nitrItes - which is ALSO toxic to fish/frogs
> A bacteria THEN forms that converts the nitrItes into nitrAtes - which is NOT toxic to fish/frogs until it reaches VERY high levels.
> 
> In a fully cycled tank you should see:
> Ammonia: 0 ppm
> NitrIte: 0 ppm
> NitrAte: usually between 7.5-20ppm (this TOTALLY depends on tank size/stocking)
> 
> As this cycle establishes in your tank, it is very unsafe for the creatures that live there. First the ammonia will 'spike' as the levels of wastes in the tank rise with nothing to stop it (be sure to do plenty of water changes to keep this number down for the frogs). When the next stage of the cycle begins, the ammonia will start to vanish, but the nitrIte levels will spike (be sure to do plenty of water changes to keep this number down for the frogs) Finally, at the last stage, the nitrAte levels will spike as the nitrIte levels fall. . . (again with the water changes), and finally, the nitrAtes will settle where they need to be to keep a balance in your tank, giving you a 0 reading on ammonia and nitrIte - and a low reading of nitrAtes.
> 
> Live plants WILL and DO help with keeping things in check during cycling. They absorb the poisonous toxins from the water and convert it into their own food - so yay for live plants! But you'd need to have a LOT of live plants to absorb all of the nitrate in a fully cycled tank.
> 
> There are many people around who can explain this stuff far better than I can! Check out that link, and hopefully one of them will pop by to help out soon! In the meantime, keep testing and if your levels start to rise, keep them down with water changes.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what size is the tank and how long has it been set up? Many people choose not to cycle smaller tanks, and prefer doing complete water changes every so often. This isn't my way, though, so maybe someone can help you there if that's the way you want to go.
> 
> Good call on adding Frank later, hopefully they'll get along swimmingly! And I'm sure you'll be able to tell your froggies apart soon! Can't wait to hear what names they get!


Thanks i thought i was good at cycling, but did not realize the nitrates would be above zero. yes i will do daily water changes. it is a 10 gallon. i used fish food instead of fish or ammonia.


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## Chesh

Ahhh, gotcha! It's an easy mistake to make until you understand the full process. I hope I helped clarify it for you! You did better than I did when I started, believe me - I didn't even know there WAS a nitrogen cycle! With a lot of care and attention, and help from the fantastic people on this site, my first froggy (along with a slew of fishies) got through it just fine. :-D

You'll be best off cycling the 10g tank, and as long as you keep an eye on things, I'm sure everyone will get through safely. The trouble with doing a fish-in (or in this case, a frog-in) cycle, is that you HAVE to have some level of ammonia in the water in order for the cycle to run it's course - which obviously isn't the greatest for their health. Just keep a close watch on things - you may or may not have to do a water change EVERY day. It really depends on what the levels are reading. I'd say two juvie frogs in a 10g is pretty lightly stocked, and with the plants lending a helping hand, you should be able to rock this cycle with very little impact on the inhabitants - as long as you pay attention. :thumbsup: 

Keep us posted on how it goes, and again - congrats on the new frogs!!! *luffs frogs*


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## ColleenT

thanks i will def keep and eye on things. the frogs have been eating so i am happy. i might have given them enough bloodworms to keep the cycle going. thawed frozen type.


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## Chesh

Hahaha! I have NEVER met a frog who doesn't love bloodworm! I'm sure you'll have no problems with keeping the cycle going now that you have critters in there. Your little froggies look plump, healthy, and happy


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## ColleenT

Thanks! they all made it thru the night, so i'm happy. the bloodworms that were on the substrate last night, are now all gone, i feel confident they ate them all.


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## Chesh

Olympia -

Sorry, hon! I missed this one!!!

Some people have trouble feeding them, yes - but in an environment where they feel comfortable (like your pretty, cycled, well-planted tank) I don't think you'll have any trouble! It *does* seem odd that they'd be chewing on the plants, but if it was debris on the substrate they probably just thought it was a snack (and were disappointed!) The trouble with feeding these guys comes especially in a community tank, because the poor little things have TERRIBLE vision - they hunt by feeling for vibrations in the water (which does them no good since we feed them dead food) and by using their sense of smell. It can take them quite a long time to find food - and you'll see them randomly pouncing all over the place until they do. In a community tank with greedier fish, this can be a problem, as the food is often eaten by the time they get to it!

It sounds like yours have settled in perfectly, and I'm sure they'll do wonderfully in your care!

As for the shedding. . . keep an eye on it. It's probably fine, they usually shed all at once, but it isn't uncommon for a piece to get stuck a bit longer. If it takes him longer than a couple of days, it *could* be indicative of a problem, (for example, Chytrid - where the skin gets thicker, and so doesn't shed smoothly) - so you'll want to keep your eye on it. I LOVE watching my froggies shed, it's the coolest thing - but they usually do it in the middle of the night, and I miss it!



Colleen - 

HUZZAH for day TWO! They're so sweet! Great shot!

It's REALLY hard to tell from the picture, and depending on how young they are - may be too soon to tell, anyway - but it looks as if you *might* have a male and a female there! Females tend to be chubbier, and have a bit more of a 'tail' while the males are thinner have a small white or pinkish ‘pimple’ on their side, just behind their armpit. It’s called a post-axillary subdermal gland - and I *think* I might be able to see one on the smaller guy in this picture?

Glad to hear they're eating! As they get more comfortable with you and their new home, they'll start coming out and begging for their dinner. It's always good to try to make a point of watching them eat. That's the best way to be sure that they're both getting enough - and this will become especially important when you put your Betta in with them.


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## Olympia

Gah, the C word. 
I don't think they'll have any problems eating, I have a tendency to pick timid small fish. When I walk up to this tank everything swims away. xD
Them and the gobies both need a bloodworm diet but they are twice the size of the gobies. xD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Goodness! How big are these frogs? You make them sound like giants! You're 100% SURE they're ADF and not ACF?!! LOL! I'm sure they're fine, and you can feel free to feed them a mixture of many different yummy frozen foods - variety is the spice of life


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## Olympia

They've got webbing on they're front... Paws? And no claws except on the hind legs. I've only ever even seen albino ACFs anyways.
Well, the frogs are about 2.5 inches. My threadfin and gobies are all 1 inch. So YES they are giant in my micro tank. Only 2 of my cories are bigger than them.
I'll have to pick up some more frozen food. Yesterday I was only concerned about talking to the shop keeping about how to grow my own food for the threadfin. xD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ColleenT

i have read that ACF have their eyes on top of their head and ADF's have eyes to the sides of their head which is a good way to tell


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## Olympia

I figured the webbing is the easiest way to tell. 
Good news is I have a male and a female. :3 (as best as I can tell).


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## Chesh

CONGRATULATIONS on a possible pair! Very exciting . . .

I'm agreeing with Olympia - I think webbing is the best sure-fire way to be 100% on the question of ADF vs ACF. That and. . . well, ACF get sooooo big and aggressive and behave entirely differently. I had an ACF in the past, I wasn't a big fan of him :/


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## Olympia

So, the female frog gorged herself. The male frog only wants to hide in the java moss, I spent 10 minutes looking for him. Then I chased him out of the moss, he ate a couple bloodworms, and slowly made his was back to the moss. -__-

The female also bit one of the cories eating "her" bloodworms, and all the cories freaked out and swam away. xD

edit: also I guess the 2.5 inches is them with their legs stretched out. The bodies are more like an inch as well. But they still look huge in my tank!


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## Chesh

Glad you watched them eat, I was wondering if you'd come across a problem like this, lol! Poor Cories! Poor Boyfrog! 

I think you may have read about how I set up a 'feeding area' for my frog, or hand-fed while she was in the community tank. Gizmo does this, too - she feeds each type of fish/frog in a different area of the tank, and it seems to work out well for her. MOST people have the opposite problem, though! The frogs are the one having trouble getting food, usually! LOL! Glad to hear they aren't *quite* as gargantuan as all that, too. A 2.5" ADF! :shock: 1" is WAY more like it!

I can't wait to hear what you decide to name these silly frogs of yorus. . . Oh, and btw - I *think* they call 'em flippers - DEFINITELY not PAWS!!! *giggle*


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## Olympia

I don't think it's needed. None of my fish are big eaters. The gobies probably ate like 4 worms each. My cories don't like blood worms, they just eat a few. I can't imagine corralling the cories around the tank either, they're so shy and panic easily. Mr Tiny doesn't.. eat things bigger than he is. It's working out well. I don't know what more I'm adding to the tank, more threadfins and maybe another small rainbow for the top. No pigs in this tank! Female frog literally seems in charge of things here. xD

I looked it up and they're just called feet apparently. xD

And I was told to name them Appa and Momo, after an anime. It's kinda weird that one's a girl, but I think I'll just ignore that fact!
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/268/4/9/appa_and_momo_by_vvvviola-d2zfxek.jpg


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## ColleenT

this place shows in pictures the difference between the two types of frogs. i am reading as much as i can to learn about these guys. there is no WAY i would want an ACF, but i am sure there are people out there who enjoy them.

http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/misc_critters/frog_african_dwarf.htm


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## ColleenT

Ugh! One of my frogs got out. I had counted them in the morning and they were all there. But i had noticed one hanging out at the top of the heater. i counted again this evening and one was missing. I looked for about an hour, over and over in the tank, the filter, etc..Finally found him. He had jumped off the tank and into a paper recycle bin. i found his dead body all dried up. I feel horrible. The tank has a cover but i had no idea they would be so good at escape. i now have aluminum foil covering as much as i can. I don't know what else i can use that would be able to be removable when i need to get into the water for anything.


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## Chesh

Oh no!!! Colleen! I'm SO SORRY!!! *hugs* 

That is so strange. . . I know that they can jump out of the tank, but usually, as far as I know, it isn't *that* common if the tank has a hood. Maybe I'm wrong about that. . .? There are a few illness that can cause a frog to want to escape the water, but it sounds like it may have just been plain bad luck. . . I'm really sad for you - what a terrible discovery. . . 

*cries*


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## ColleenT

Chesherca said:


> Oh no!!! Colleen! I'm SO SORRY!!! *hugs*
> 
> That is so strange. . . I know that they can jump out of the tank, but usually, as far as I know, it isn't *that* common if the tank has a hood. Maybe I'm wrong about that. . .? There are a few illness that can cause a frog to want to escape the water, but it sounds like it may have just been plain bad luck. . . I'm really sad for you - what a terrible discovery. . .
> 
> *cries*


thanks, i was reading last night and a few sites mentioned that they can be escape artists, but i really had no clue they would do that. now i guess tin foil is the only thing i can use to fill in any open spaces. the others are all accounted for this morning, so thank goodness for that. I am going to check my water and do a water change..*sigh*, poor little frog.


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## ColleenT

i am in the computer room with the lights off( it is night) and i hear some singing from my tank! How cool!!


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## Chesh

AWWW!!! That's so awesome! Sounds like they're settling right in for you! ADF calling for mates is the sweetest sound. . . AWWW!


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## ColleenT

my handiwork this morning. i pray this is enough to keep them in the tank. this is plastic craft mesh and black duct tape.


escape proof above heater










escape proof around filter


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## Chesh

Brilliant! I'd like to see them _TRY_ to get out of that tank!


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## ColleenT

Thanks! too bad the first one got out, but maybe his death will prevent another from getting out and dying.


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## Olympia

OKAY question!
Can ADFs over eat? Because my girl is really having her way with all those bloodworms, lol. She's got a round tummy for sure. Do they know when to stop?

Also, noticed my skinny boy eating a lot more today. Which is great, because he's like = with his head and body, if that makes sense, like there's no curves on him. xD The female is at least 50% bigger than him in the tummy.

Also, I rest my case that the frogs are bullies. Even the tiny boy was biting a cory's face today. o-o I guess those barbels are yummy looking. The cory didn't really care, they're nice guys (good thing).


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## Chesh

Yes. They can, and I've read that females tend to more often (though I have no idea if this is actually true!) Their tummies are slightly to the left side of their bodies, so you can very obviously see when one is full - her left side will curve out a bit more. If they over-eat, just like any fish, all kinds of trouble can come from it, like bloat. You may need to monitor her very closely - the little glutton!!!

Females DO tend to be chubbier than the males as a general rule, so there's that to keep in mind also... 

I'm glad your little boy is settling in and feeling comfortable enough to take his fair share of the grub!


I still don't believe they're bullies! I WON'T believe it! MY bet? Those barbels look JUST like BLOODWORMS when you're blind as an ADF - and they DO wiggle. Easy mistake to make! Glad they aren't doing any harm. . . and I hope it doesn't become a problem!

ETA: OH! And it's okay to feed full-grown ADF every OTHER day, instead of every day. So you may want to take this approach in keeping the little missy's slender figure  Perhaps try hand-feeding the little guy daily until you feel he's caught up, and letting her hunt for the bits that got away. I'm SURE she won't starve


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## Olympia

Alright, well I don't want to cut down on the bloodworms because, well the boy is slow at finding food, the girl finds it really fast and well. It's going to be hard to cut those cubes up even smaller than I did today. 

Is it okay to feed every other day?

And they may be unknowing of it, but it still makes them mean! xD


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## Chesh

Does NOT make 'em mean! Makes 'em blind and lovably dumb. . . well, I guess that is unless you're a Cory. But hopefully they understand. 

Yeah... I'd go ahead and cut down to every other day. If your little one seems to be having trouble, you can always try using a turkey baster (or your fingers) to target feed him. . .


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## ColleenT

i fed my betta, Frank, and my ADF's tonight. they got shrimp meat from Wegmans. fresh uncooked. the frogs went nuts, they loved it. grabbed huge chunks and shook them like a dog would. Frank got a good bite, but then he was afraid of the size of the chunks. i had tried to chop it very small, but i guess i need to try harder next time. some of the frogs even took it off a long stick.


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## Chesh

Fantastic! Glad that the betta isn't giving the froggies a tough time getting their food  I'm happy they're eating well (and singing!!!) for you! Sounds like things are going well over there - how goes the cycling?


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## ColleenT

everything seems normal so far. the plants must be helping a lot. i am kind of waiting for a crazy spike, but so far no problems.


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## Chesh

Gooooooooood! Plants will help tons - especially fast growing stem and floating plants. I've cycled several tanks now with no spikes whatsoever. . . that's how we like it!!!


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## JennybugJennifer

I decided to leave mr. Frogger in his cycled tank. I couldn't bring myself to mess up my cycle XD 
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o542/iTwistedSerenity/282eeb17.jpg


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## Chesh

Aww! Cute setup! Is that a 5 gallon? I've been wondering how he's doing over there - looks like all is well!


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## JennybugJennifer

No that's my 10 gallon with jaws and pearl  
Frogger is doing wonderful  I'm feeding in the glass again though. The other way was a mess
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

LOL I thought I was confused! Whatever works best - as long as he's eating and happy! I'm so glad to hear he's doing well!


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## JennybugJennifer

I got some aquarium sand, how would I go about changing
Out the gravel for the sand without messing everything up? The cycle and everything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

VERY VERY CAREFULLY, lol!!! 

Best thing would be to leave the gravel, and put the sand on top. . .

If you INSIST on taking the gravel out, get a pair or two of brand new pantyhose, and wash them VERY well in VINEGAR (no soap) and rinse rinse rinse. Then, take ol' Frogger out for a bit, and scoop all of the gravel into the toe of the pantyhose. Use at least 2 'feet', more if you can - but keep that gravel in there, and keep it wet. Then add your sand and fix your tank how you like it. Let the sand settle before turning the filter back on - and put as much of the old tank water back into the tank as you can. . . you want to keep as much as you possibly can the same - don't clean your filters or anything - skip this water change (unless parameters get funky - you'll want to test frequently, esp in a tank that size). Put your tank back together again, and put those ugly gravel-filled pantyhose back into the tank! If you have 2 pantyhose bags, wait 2 weeks - then remove the 1st one during the water change. Then wait another 2 weeks and remove the next. During your weekly water changes, take the bags out and gently squoosh them in the bucket of dirty tank water, to get any mulm out. If you have 4, remove one every week until they're all gone. The tank will look funky for a month, and be pretty cramped, but this is the best way that *I* know of to do this without making the cycle bumpy. . . 

Maybe someone else can offer a better way! I'm SUPER cautious about this kind of thing, so I may be telling you the hard way, but I've done it, and it worked with no cycle flux - so I'm okay with recommending it


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## JennybugJennifer

Whoa that's a lot. I don't mind just putting sand on top I just want it softer and safer for Frogger when he dives and eats
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## Chesh

LOL! That's the easiest way, the trouble is that the sand sinks to the bottom - beneath the gravel. I'd dump the sand on top, and remove the gravel bit by bit during water changes until it's all gone. And also. . . that's the total OCD way of doing it - there must be an easier way - I'm just a total scardey cat when it comes to cycle stuff. Having watched my poor fish and frog go through a fish-in cycle once, I'll never risk it again if I can help it


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## Olympia

Heeeeeey, does anyone have a photo of, uhm, froggie poop?
I remember when I had land frogs their poop was this disgusting mushy stuff, haven't seen anything like that.
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## Chesh

heehee, oddly enough - I've had this question! I've only ever actually SEEN my frog poop ONCE, and no - I didn't take a picture. But I'm sure they're doing it - and yours are, too!


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## Olympia

Just an update, my pair is growing and feeding very well.
The arm pimple things on the male have grown quite a bit. Curious if this means he's maturing more, or if they're stimulated by the female being there. We probably don't know the answer to that though.

Chesh, the one time you DON'T take a photo! 
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## JennybugJennifer

Okay question; since I put jaws in the 10 gallon he started tail biting so I moved him back to his three gallon. First how much Aquarium salt can I add? Also would it be healthie for Frogger to move him and two ghost strimp to the empty side?
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## Chesh

Limpi - YAY for happy froggies! I've been wondering the same thing myself, actually. I've never read that there is any change in the post auxiliary subdermal gland (PIMPLE!) when approaching mating, so my guess is that it just has to do with sexual maturity and growth. . . not sure about this, however. Either way, HUZZAH! I hope you're enjoying your frogs as much as I do mine!


Jenny. . . I'm not sure what tolerance a frog or shrimp. . . or even betta have to salt in the water - and I'm not clear which creature of the three you're asking about, either, lol! If you're saying that Jaws was biting his OWN tail (silly Jaws!), Olympia will have a better idea of the proper salt tolerance - she's an old-school Betta pro, I only just started down that road.

As for moving the others into a 10g tank - as long as it's fully cycled with similar parameters to the tank(s) that they're coming from, there should be no problem moving the frog - though I know nothing about shrimp. Keep the lights off for 24 hours or so after the move to give the frog time to settle in, and he should be good to go. If you'll be medicating or salting the 10g tank, I'd leave the frog where he is until the water is clear again, because there is no need to expose any creature to stress (medication) that they don't need. . . but it sounds like Jaws is to be treated in the 3g?

Please clarify! Sorry to hear that Jaws is causing trouble again. . . *shakes head*


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## JennybugJennifer

Jaws is medicated in his 3 gallon yes  and he is indeed he tail biter of his own tail XD such a punk
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## Olympia

I want froggie eggsss... Do you think feeding more often would make them breed?


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## Olympia

Just watched the shedding experience.. Nearly got a heart attack when I saw this thing flailing around in the tank.. Didn't even realize what was going on...


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## Chesh

LOL! AWESOME!!! Neat, isn't it? I was a bit disturbed by it myself the first time. Once I figured out what was going on, I was fascinated - couldn't look away. STILL can't, when I catch 'em in the act!

I. . . don't. . . think feeding them more is the answer, I think this might have to come with time! But they'll get there, I'm sure! I can't remember - my frogs and owners details are getting mixed up - have you heard yours sing yet?


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## Olympia

Maybe once. They're in my bedroom so I'll probably hear them when the time comes!
Good point though I'll look out for singing!
And I know that betta need to be fattened up before they can spend the energy to breed so I figured frogs were the same. xD
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## Chesh

Well... dontcha kind of have that taken care of with ONE of them at least 

Actually, the females ARE bigger, and very obviously plumper. _ESPECIALLY_ when they're full of eggies! They don't reach sexual maturity until around 9 months of age, though. . . which means nothing. Cuz' we have no idea how old ours are!

I wonder why a male in a tank with a female would even bother singing? But I am ALL EARS for that one! Have you googled it yet? There are sound clips, it's a sweet little buzzy sound, I'm sure it's easy to miss, but I'll be waiting!


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## JennybugJennifer

Mr.frogger was a singer but I haven't heard him in a long time >.< he now lives in half the ten gallon with five ghost shrimp and pearl on the other half. Jaws is in his three gallon next to pearl so he can flare. He did fine until he couldn't see pearl anymore. 
I really want some middle or top swimmers for froggers side, I'd there room? And what kind?
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## Chesh

I'm not so sure on stocking, and most of the tiny fishies need a shoal. . . maybe someone else can advise you here, but I will warn that feeding becomes more difficult when friends are involved 

BUT I hope he starts singing for you again!!! Daaaawwww!


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## JennybugJennifer

That's true I keep forgetting the feeding. And it's hard enough to feed him already. The shrimp are awesome I'm very happy with them. I tried one in pearls side and that was swimming desert so I put it back with Frogger
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## Chesh

It sounds like a cute little tank you have going there, Jenny! WHERE ARE THE PICTURES!?


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## JennybugJennifer

Haha three or so coming up!!
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## JennybugJennifer

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## Chesh

heehee, CUTE! He's such a little sweetie! I'm so glad you got him through the cycling process and feeding properly! I'm sure he's so much happier now - and that YOU are TOO! I toldja you'd feel so much less stressed out about him once that first hurdle was crossed and you guys were used to each-other, you've done well. HOORAY for FROGS - and their caretakers. Love that pretty little glass, lol!


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## JennybugJennifer

Hehe yay!! Thank you!! I also started using stress coat for water changes from API. It helps the cycle too. 
He didn't eat tonight but i moved him last night so I'm thinking he's stressed and settling in. Plus getting used to new friends. He isn't losing weight though from what I can tell. Was thinking of adding a new boy to the 2.5 but I dunno . 
Also thought about using the 2.5 for QT for another frog to add with Frogger
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## Chesh

2.5 to QT is a good call, keeping 2 frogs in a 2.5. . . will be a bit tight, I think. As long as your tank is cycled, you shouldn't be adding anything to the water - or changing out 100% of it at a time. Things should remain stable.  I'm sure he IS a bit stressed. . . moving to a new location is always difficult. Hope he's back to his chirpy happy self soon!


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## JennybugJennifer

I was only going to get one new froggy in the 2.5 for quarantine. So that would be two frogs, 5 shrimp, and one Betta in the 10g
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## Chesh

It sounds good to me! I don't know much about stocking, but. . . *nods* Did you see what AQAdvisor.com has to say? Remember to keep the newbie in QT for three whole months, jic of Chytrid. . . :-( SUCH a LONG time!!!


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## JennybugJennifer

Yes ma'am I kept the filter on in the tank to keep the cycle for a new frog. I was just saying that's the stockig after the three month quarantine period and no I didn't see that :/ 
Frogger lovesssss burying in the bottom and crawling now that he's on soft sand <3 I feel better about him eating too
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## Chesh

Good thinking!!!! But remember also that the cycle wont' stay without something to 'feed' the bacteria - you need a creature! Soooo. . . when is little froggy #2 coming home, eh??! How 'bout. . . I dunno. . . TOMORROW!!?!


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## JennybugJennifer

Lawls nooo I need money first maybe I could borrow. Would it work to just put some food in there?
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## JennybugJennifer

Also I can pour sand on top now that it's empty right?
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## Chesh

You can pour sand on top, yes - but be sure to turn off the filter first and let everything settle down before turning things back on again.

Food decomposition does cause ammonia to be in the water, but I don't know how much you would need to put in there to keep a decent colony of bacteria alive. I'm sure if you posted this as it's own thread, someone would be better able to help? Maybe you can put one of your betta or the shrimp in that tank until you're ready for your new friend. I hate to stress out the others by moving them in and out and in again - but it would really just suck to have to cycle over again 

Whatever you decide, if you're careful, I'm sure it'll be just fine! Good luck!


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## JennybugJennifer

Could I add bacteria? I might put a couple shrimp in there
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## Chesh

Naw, hon - you've GOT the bacteria! That's what the cycle is all about - getting a colony of bacteria into the tank and established enough to clear the water of toxins. But the bacteria need to eat to stay alive, and they eat ammonia, which is created by waste, which is created by critters - also dying or rotting bits of food and plants, etc. . . I've never tried to keep a cycle up without a creature before, and though I know it IS possible, I don't know how - or how much stuff (like food) you would have to add to do so. Do you have a test kit? It could be a very interesting experiment!


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## JennybugJennifer

hhmmmmm no im buying a test kit though.i my just drop in a couple srimp and food food food. im not sure about getting a new froggy. a bit risky


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## Gizmothefreaky

*blinks blearily* I have been gone entirely too long... 

My recent life has been.... trying.... to say the least... heh... ^^; im sorry you guys. 
You all seem to be carrying on well without me though! So that is awesome.  

I figured i could give you all my e-mail if you had any urgent questions... it comes right to my phone. [email protected] so you can all email me if you need to. i so rarely come by here anymore, as i am getting a little depressed with bettas, bad luck after another has caused me to lose... ah... six in the last three weeks... >.<


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## Chesh

OMG! Giz, I'm so SORRY! *hugs* 

I was wondering where you've been. . . we miss you! Thanks for the contact info, just in case we get in over our heads - very sweet of you!

I know you've been busy - a recent move with a preschooler (if only just that) will have the effect of chaos - and I hope everything settles down over there for you  

How are those Axolotls doing? That new one was such a CUTIE!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Aw, thanks! Yeah, anything with a three year old in tow is hard to do, for sure... 
I havent moved yet, but i plan to be out of this house by october. 

The axolotls are doing great! Ruth is getting so big, but i dont think s/he will ever be as big as Toothless at this point.. lol! S/He has discovered their love of earthworms though! I have successfully weaned them off fish except as treats. 
EDIT: Whoops! Forgot to post the picture of the Axolotls... 









Sad news though.. I lots Clyde last night, i dont know why, just... one minute he was fine, and the next i found him on his back, so i cupped him to keep an eye on him, and within an hour or so he was gone... no sign what so ever as to why, just.... gone. :/


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## Chesh

Aw, man... I'm sorry to hear - it's always heartbreaking - especially, perhaps, if you had no idea it was coming, or why. *cries*

The Axelots are looking gorgeous, though! 

I understand. . . about kids! I have a 2 and a 5 and sit daily for 3 3 year olds . . .  But they're FUN - and awfully cute! I hope things settle down for you soon. . .


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## Olympia

My female just ate... A bubble. Adorable!
Gizmo, I've been wondering where you went off to! Sorry to hear the bad news.  But Chesh has been taking great care of the froggie keepers! :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Awww, thanks for such sweetness!!! I just LOVE you to BITS! I try, but Gizzy has the benefit of actually having kept these guys for years


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## Gizmothefreaky

I really have missed you guys though! X3 

I was so tempted to buy another frog today... but i dont want to freak Bonnie out, i think ill start over when she passes... I got a huge 55 gallon tank today off CL, so i am really excited to get that stocked... i have no idea with what yet... XD


Here is a picture of the new tank... And Olyvia, my daughter. lol!


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## Chesh

She's ADORABLE, and that tank is NEAT! I can't wait to see what you put into it. . . a frog. . . or 39. . . would work perfectly!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol thanks!! I'm actually thinking of aggressive fish, oscars and maybe some other Cichlids...


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## Olympia

Just remember that 55 gallons is still small for a cichlid tank.
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## Gizmothefreaky

Really? But it's freaking huge, because of the shape... Blah.... Lol I have no idea then... I might just wait to fill it until I move out. Lmao!


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## Olympia

Oh yes, wait. You don't want the hassle of ANOTHER tank that big being drained and fish being carried around. Gives you some time to thing about what you want better! 
What's the height? You could do angelfish if it's tall enough. It's too small for oscars though. Goldfish would work, I know you like them. If you want better cichlid advice and ideas than I can give (I know like nothing about them), you can PM our user Tazman about it. He knows like, everything about cichlids of all kinds. There's a lot of aggressive cichlids that are smaller than oscars (but still big), like Jack Dempsey, so don't kick em out of the picture just yet. :-D


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## Gizmothefreaky

I'm not sure exactly of the height... Angelfish would be pretty cool. Lol! I wouldn't mind goldfish either.. I've been wanting to look into pearl scales... But I do like orandas too... I wouldn't dare do comets or anything like that. Lol!!


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## AdrianneB89

I just got a new ADF yesterday and put him in a 1 gallon bowl with a small clay pot and a few live plants, I have river rocks for the substrate. I plan on doing regular water changes like I do with my Betta Bowl and my Guppy tank. I do not have a filter or a heater but the house stays around 73 ish.. He hasnt eaten anything yet.. I am afraid I dont have the right food.. The Bloodworms I have are the freeze dried ones and they dont sink.... any way I can get them to sink?


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## Chesh

You might be able to get them to sink if you soak them for a while before adding them to the tank. You can also try hand-feeding him, or using a turkey baster to get the food directly to him. Wet-frozen foods are a better choice, as some sources say that the freeze-dried type tend to cause bloat. It sometimes takes them a day or two to settle in, moving to a new home is very stressful.

However, I do *NOT *recommend that you keep this little guy in a tiny bowl without filtration or heat. If you can't afford to get him a proper tank (at least 2.5 gallons, filtered and heated) you really should return him to the store. They also jump - so keep that in mind, also.

Sorry to be harsh. . . 


Good luck!


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## AdrianneB89

No reason to be sorry for being harsh.. I was under the impression that this would be plenty of room. at least before I started reading more about them. The store said no filter needed and for one frog one gallon was perfectly ok... My husband thinks I have spent to much money on this stuff as it is so I do not have the luxury of getting a bigger tank. However I am going to do my best to make it a good home for him. I was planning on getting some more plants to go in there small ones.. and I heard that filters cause to much agitation in the water for theses guys so I was thinking about making a small DIY sponge filter for him and I can just use the air pump I already have for my Guppies.. but I haven't decided yet.


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## Chesh

How are your guppies housed? You do have to pay attention to the filter, depending on the size/type, it *can* pose a problem - or not, it kind of depends on a lot of factors (including the frog). in a 1g tank - yeah, I really don't know about that at all. . . I'd be worried. They don't do well with constant fluctuations in parameters and temperatures that you'll get in a smaller setup. Do you have a larger tank - like a 10g or even a 5 - that you can house him in with another creature? 

It's EASIER to keep them in a species only tank, but it is possible to keep them with other nice fish. I've had mine with guppies, and the main problem I had with that was due to feeding. I hand-fed mine to make sure she was getting enough until I got her into her own tank.


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## Gizmothefreaky

You need to get the proper housing for that ADF first of all, and freeze dried foods will kill him/her. I think you Should really go back and read the very first post in this thread.


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## AdrianneB89

I have Endler Guppies in a 2 gallon tank with filter and air stone. they have pennywort and onion bulbs growing and they have 2 small plastic plants. There are 5 of them.


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## AdrianneB89

Getting proper as you say, houseing for him right now is out of the question I am a newly married student who works 3 jobs just to pay the bills. I will Do what I can to make him a healthy frog, but I am not going to be able to get anything bigger right now.


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## Chesh

I'm sorry! It's really hard to give you advice on keeping your frog healthy, when conditions are just not even close to what the species needs! I understand that you're trying to do your best on a limited budget, but in all honesty. . .he's not going to survive for long. Is there any way you can return him to the store until you will be able to get a new tank that is better set up for the needs of this type of creature? Even if the store won't give you credit at this point, it is better to save his life than to keep him, unhappily, in such a confined space for as long as he'll live.

Check Craigslist, they often have 10g tanks up for little to nothing - I often see them on Freecycle (in my area), too. . . you really DO need something bigger for the guppies, also. 5 gups in a 2 gallon is just unkind, to be frank.

I wish I had something more positive to say, I feel bad for you - but let this be a lesson learned. Research before you buy, and never trust the salesman at the pet shop. We've all made mistakes, it's what you learn from them that count.

Good luck, and let us know if there is anything else we can help you with - we're always happy to talk frogs (and fish)!


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## Gizmothefreaky

If you can get a used ten gallon tank off CL, then you can combine the guppies and adf in one tank and house them both properly in one fell swoop!  then you would just need a heater, as your house is really too cold for both species to be happy, and a filter, and you are golden! I use a desk lamp to light the one tank I don't have a hood for, and it works great. Also, it was only $.50 at a garage sale! Lol

Oh and by the way... I am a single mother working one underpaid job and I can still afford the right things fort my animals... Not trying to be rude, just saying, ten bucks for a ten gallon tank from Walmart, not exactly breaking the bank here.


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## craiger75

Hmmm, cool article. I really do want some of these asp. As I see it, the hardest part is feeding them. I'd have to know more about that before getting any.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Feeding isn't so hard if you have them alone, it gets more tricky when you put them with fish.


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## Olympia

I have the weird frogs that don't let my fish eat lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

lol exactly, see? Trickier with fish. X3


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## AdrianneB89

Thank you for the advice I appreciate it. 

Per the 1 Gallon rule my guppies are just fine in their tank, but I am sure a bigger tank would be better. And I eventually want to get a big tank. 

Of course $10 isn't much but when you are talking about properly setting up a tank with substrate, filter, plants, heater . . . ect. It is a lot more than just $10. When I have already spent $160 on things for my fish this month.... I dont have any more disposable income.


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## Gizmothefreaky

A lot of times you can find whole set ups on CL for about ten bucks, I find them a lot in my area, ten bucks for who sets including substrate and plants, sometimes even filters and heaters. When people want to get rid of something, they sell it for cheap. Lol!


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## Chesh

I agree with you, Giz! I suspect that a LOT of people get 10g tanks, overstock them without understanding of the nitrogen cycle (I did :roll. And when their fish all die a couple of times, they give up.

Adrianne, it's worth looking into. As is the 1 Gallon Rule - because it really isn't a 'rule' at all, and your guppy tank_ IS_ overstocked. Even if stocking wasn't an issue (it still is), the needs of the fish are to be considered as well. Guppies are very active little guys, and they simply do not have the room they need to swim about in a tank that small  Same goes for the frog. 

We're not trying to attack you, or upset you in anyway - it's just the truth about the needs of your creatures, and if you can't meet their basic needs right now, you should re-home them or give them back to the shop and give them a chance at the life they deserve. One day, you'll be able to afford a proper set-up. . . but I'm afraid that day might be too long in coming for the fish you have right now.


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## battered

How do ADFs compare to bettas in terms of waste production? What about in terms of activity/how interesting they are to watch? I have a Fluval Spec (2g) that I was planning on throwing a betta in but reading this gave me an interested in ADFs again (I had considered them in another community tank, but opted out in the end). I've always loved how they looked, but have been hesitant because I don't want them taking up the Spec if they're just going to sit around all day. Is 1 all I will be able to keep in the tank? The Spec's filtration system is excellent for its size (20x turnover rate) and all my tanks are _well_ planted so water quality shouldn't be an issue.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Two gallons is really only suitable for a betta, maybe a colony of shrimp. A single frog needs at least three gallons of water, and for a pair you need five gallons, and so on.


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## Chesh

The minimum requirement for a single ADF is usually put at around 2.5 - 3 gallons, so a 2g IS cutting it a bit short, and you absolutley will not be able to keep more than one alone in a tank that size. Well planted is always good, mine definitely enjoy their greenery.

That said. . .

I don't know how to compare the two - they're really apples and oranges! Maybe Gizzy will be able to shed light on the bioload aspect of things. I DO know that they require very stable water parameters, and will do better on the softer side of water. Even if your 2g can handle the bioload, you have to consider the needs of the frog. They're active little guys, and really do like the extra space that a bigger tank brings them. I have my 2 in a 5g (which unfortunately for them is a hex - taller than wide), and am planning to upgrade them to a 10, just to give them more room to spread out. 

I love my frogs - I enjoyed her when I only had one, and I'm finding them more entertaining now that I have a pair. I always see mine. They ARE nocturnal, however. Though they are less active during the day, mine are still very much around even during daylight hours. There is no doubt, however, that their activity picks up in the evening. I've found that when I feed them at around sunset (6pm-ish) they reward me with a ton of activity before I'm ready for bed. I don't know what you would consider entertaining enough to take up the space. . . they definitely are less active when the sun is high, though. (and I'm sure this varies from tank to tank and frog to frog). *I* find them very entertaining to watch at any time of day - but I can't tell you that you will, lol! It all depends on what you're interests are!

Hope this helps. . . but keep in mind that you_ ARE_ posting on the ADF thread - of course we're gonna say we adore our froggies!

ETA: AAAAAH! THERE you are, Giz! Beat me to it! I love that you're back. . . you're so much better at flat facts than I am *hugs*


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## Olympia

I agree. They ARE active. I thought they just sat around in zen mode all day, but my guys are belly crawling all around the 20 gallon and rolling around in plants all day. :-D


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## Chesh

PERFECT, Olympia! "Rolling around in plants all day" is EXACTLY it!!!


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## battered

Oh...I had hoped that because the Fluval Spec is one of the nicest aquarium in its size range it might be able to accommodate a little more. Had a colony of rcs in there at one time and they thrived. But thanks! Maybe I'll just get a few ADF later in some of my bigger tanks.


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## Chesh

Yeah, I would wait. . . you'll really see them at their best in a bigger tank - especially if you can keep more than one


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## Gizmothefreaky

I plan on having a small herd of them in my 55 gallon corner tank once I get it up and running. Lmao!! It's going to be wonderful.


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## Chesh

A herd of frogs??! *giggle* Maybe you can get a dogfish to make sure they don't stray? Seriously, that will be super cool


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## SpookyTooth

I wonder... how many frogs could you fit in a 55 gallon? I can see the madness now! If you do go ahead with that Gizmo would you _please_ upload some photographs?! That would be beyond awesome! Hahah.


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## Chesh

FULLY STOCKED TO MAX CAPACITY WITH FROGS!!? 
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
Now, THAT would be a thing to see, neh?


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## SpookyTooth

Definately! That would be so simply EPIC! Oh gosh -- imagine if they all sang at once, I wonder how LOUD that would be!


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## Chesh

haha, it wouldn't, tho. . . just a chorus of tiny little buzzes!_ SO CUTE!_


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## JennybugJennifer

Bwahahahahaha I looked in my tank and saw shrimp bits so I was all thinking one died and the others were eating him >.>
They molted lol I counted them three times
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

I was thinking I would keep about eight... With the shape of the tank and how I plan to stock and scape it, that would be perfect. X3 I can't wait!! 

Ooh! I got a great deal today! Six two gallon critter keepers for $27 total! That works out to about )4.50 a piece. I'm so excited to get the boys into them.  I have to tear down my ten gallon tanks because divided tanks are causing me too much grief. Lol I think it's why my bettas keep passing away in quick order.


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## Chesh

I know a lot of people do it, but I personally have really disliked my experience with divided tanks, too. Critter keepers are AWESOME - great deal on that one! Hope you get all sorted out soon, and can start building that big ol' tank  8 frogs sounds fun!!! I'm planning to upgrade my 2 to a 10g, and was thinking about adding a few more to the bunch when I do that - OF COURSE! Frogs are addictive! They're just so SWEET! Seeing the two together has me wondering how much more fun . . . well . . . MORE would be! I'm thinking I might round them out to 3, and after a while I *might* give them a fishy roommate. But we'll have to see about that one, because feeding them (for me) in community was a real pain. Of course, those were MOLLIES I was fighting with. There are other critters that might be easier!


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## Olympia

I like divided tanks because it means I don't have to do a bunch of 100%'s every week. Lol.
8 frogs, that'll be fun to feed. o-o


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## Chesh

Well, yeah - there's THAT. But that only applies to you crazy betta collectors!








Anyway, I still have kept perfectly cycled tanks in 3 gallons and under (even 1g!), so I'm not really sure why everyone is so convinced that it can't be done. I didn't know it was supposed to be impossible until after I did it, lol!


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## Olympia

But THEN I'd need a bunch of mini filters. ;-)


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## Chesh

Awww! Mini filters. . . so CUTE!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I plan on getting several of those little filters that run on the air pump, and then getting a splitter and running all six off the same pump. Easy.


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## SpookyTooth

Fantastic idea Gizmo! That's why I love air pumps, they're so immensely versatile; they save space, time, money and electricity hehe. You can even make your own sponge filters if you want to save a few pennies and rig it all up fancy...

I'm rescaping my divided tank, one half at a time! Do Kaze's half, take a rest (I tend to get rather achey after rescaping), do Echo's half, take another rest then proceed to dream of ADFs.

I'd still love to get an ADF one day, but I think for now I'll still have to pass... I honestly... am running out of space. My room is the smallest bedroom in the house but it has the most in it in terms of animals and plants :lol: I've continued to "stalk" this topic and am still learning so if I'm ever lucky enough to take the plunge I'll feel completely confident.

Thank you


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## Gizmothefreaky

I have been having too many problems with divided tanks lately, so I decided to move everyone to their own tanks so I can just treat anything they get as it comes, rather than try and get four bettas at a time on medication and well... Or losing four bettas in a week because I didn't catch the illness fast enough... :/

I do love the way the divided tanks look though, so some day I am going to build a proper barracks, but all of the spaces will be totally closed off from the other parts. Lol! All the look, none of the hassle! Yay for plexiglass!


----------



## SpookyTooth

Plexiglass is a lifesaver, I use styrene myself though as it's available locally. My tank lid is made of it (though it came with a hood I couldn't change the light fitting so we've got a home made styrene lid instead). 

I had reservations about dividing my betta tank but I thought it would be beneficial as both fish would have more swimming space. Luckily I only have two so I can quickly spot any problems and treat accordingly -- though there is an associated risk that must be considered. If I could I'd have the fish separately but I also like only running one filter and heater... and light, makes me feel less like a financial burden unto my parents.

I look forward to the day when I can devise a cunning plan to have the fish in barracks style accommodation whilst still using minimal electricity! If I ever find I have to remove one fish and keep him separate I will, the fish come first in my eyes but things seem all right for the time being. Looking forward to the rescape!

Sorry for getting a bit off topic.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! Exactly!! 
And nothing is off topic in here. I don't mind one bit.


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## JennybugJennifer

So I'm having a roug time with my shrimps. I had six and I have four now. One got bit in half by someone. I just cleaned up the tail. Am I supposed to be feeding them special or something? They're ghost shrimp so I'm not out a bunch of money but I still like them


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## Chesh

Are they in with a Betta?


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## JennybugJennifer

No they're housed with frogger
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Oh MY!!! I . . . have no idea! I can't imagine a frog taking out a shrimp, but what do I know - I've never actually had shrimp before... hopefully one of the others can help out here - I'm really sorry.


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## Gizmothefreaky

I've seen my frogs devour a passed away shrimp in a matter of hours, they have even eaten most of a guppy. It isn't uncommon for them to scavenge. I doubt they killed the shrimp themselves, but the frogs will deffinately eat it if it was already dead.


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## Olympia

My frogs have not killed any of my shrimp. They tried when I got them but I think they realize the bright red things are impossible to catch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Well, at least we know the frogs aren't the culprit! I couldn't imagine little Frogger in attack mode!

From what I've read, Ghost Shrimp *can* be on the aggressive side toward their own kind - especially when kept in too small of a space. I think that the recommendation is 1 per gallon, but I've also read that in a smaller area, you should keep less. . . I know that all shrimp are sensitive to flux in parameters, but I thought you had that all under control? I'm not sure how long you've had your shrimp, but they're really sensitive to copper, which can come through the water in old pipes - you can get a copper kit from API for around $7, but I'm betting you had too many and they're turning on each-other. Maybe try watching for a long period of time when they can't see you to check for aggression? Depending on your water hardness, I think it may be difficult to keep shrimp, too (MY water is very nice for frogs, which means too soft for shrimp). I'm not sure if you know what your water hardness is (Gh/Kh), but you might be able to get this information from your water company. . .

I've never kept shrimp, but have been looking into the possibility. . . maybe someone who knows more can give you more advice. . . I'm sorry you're dealing with this - hope something in here helps!


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## Chesh

Is there anyone around who can help with THIS??!!

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-tropical-fish/help-my-african-dwarf-frog-oto-108751/


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## SpookyTooth

Goodness gracious! That's absolutely terrifying... I wouldn't know what to tell the poor owner! How on earth that happened I don't know but wow...


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## Chesh

My two frogs accidentally chomp on each-other from time to time in their (blind) search for food, but they just chomp-and-release. If the Otto was startled, I can see. . . how his reaction would lead to this. She's getting advice now though, hopefully she gets it off. What a nightmare!!! Species only is the way to go for ME!


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## SpookyTooth

I'm rather inclined to agree with you! If I'm ever to get my frogs I'll definitely be keeping them in a species only tank (with the exception of adding a few MTS to keep the sand moving)...

ADFs remind me a bit of my stick insects... bumbling around doing their own thing until BOOF they "see" one another (sticks can see while I know ADFs have poor eyesight) and run away wobbling and doing their leaf dance... er... that's sticks... not ADFS...

... if ADFs did a leaf dance I'd not be able to resist them anymore.


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## Chesh

They do the Zen thing.. that's pretty endearing  

MTS are fine... I had mine in with an apple snail for a while. . . then I saw a post about an ACF who startled the snail into closing, and it closed ON HIS FOOT! Oh my... they had to take the poor little snail apart to get the frog free. What a mess.


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## SpookyTooth

Ouch! The frogs don't have much luck do they? Gosh... poor snail!


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## Chesh

LOL I know. . .! But in this case, as with the Otto. . . both species are just doing what they _DO!_ Neither are aggressive in the least. . . in the confines of a tank, strange things can happen!

Do you have any pictures of those amazing critters of yours? I saw pictures online, but it'd be neat to see YOURS, specifically - if the camera doesn't upset them. They're really NEAT things!


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## SpookyTooth

It really is remarkable what can happen, yes... What are the odds of the otto getting its head stuck like that?!

I don't have very good quality photographs of the sticks but I do have a few! I'll upload them to photobucket and update my old topic with them (I'd forgotten about that to be honest, heh....)!


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## Chesh

Yayay!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I.... Wow... I honestly dont know what to do about that frog and oto situation... lol! Wow... Ill see if i cant run some ideas by them, but... ive never had any luck with sucker fish of any kind, so i dont even try to keep them anymore.


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## JennybugJennifer

I'm a bad shrimpy mommy. I put one in with pearl to stop his tail biting and distract him. Jaws stopped when I put him back in his 3 gallon next to pearl so he can see him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol I don't think the shrimp knows any better. XD


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## JennybugJennifer

Lawls I put another in and it's like Christmas for pearl XD they're too big to eat thankfully I hope lol 
So the current was moving pearl all around so I dismantled my old net and did this so it pushes the output toward the back of the aquarium, do you think it's ok?


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## JennybugJennifer

Frogger died


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## Olympia

What! No!
I'm so sorry Jenny! :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh no!! I'm so sorry to hear that!! What happened to him?


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## JennybugJennifer

I have no idea  he didnt look sick


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## Chesh

Jenny! *hugs* I'm so sorry. . . Frogger. . . *cries*
I know how much you loved him, hon - I'm really, really sad for you. Sometimes it's harder when they don't even seem sick, because then we never even got a chance to try to help.


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## Gizmothefreaky

It looks kind of like, and this could just be the flash, but it looks like his toes and middle were a bit fuzzy? It could have been a fungus. Unfortunately, as it is with most frogs, they don't show sickness most of the time until it is way too late. 
I am so sorry for your loss Jenny, I know how that feels, this is the same thing that happened with my Clyde.


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## SpookyTooth

Aww Jenny I'm so sorry  You did a great job taking care of him while he was here, I guess nature just had other plans.


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## Chesh

And you know, he DID have a rough start. . . the damage that is done in the beginning when we don't know any better (toxin flux in a newly-cycling tank, etc) does have a permanent, often unseen, effect on our animals (I started off on the wrong foot, too - I think most of us learned the hard way about cycling and such). We also don't know where they came from before they got into our care, and what conditions (good OR bad) they had to deal with as taddies. Even aside from that, just like people, some creatures are born with problems that can't necessarily be seen with the eye. . . I know that from the moment you brought Frogger home to live with you, that you did everything in your power to keep him happy and healthy, and I'm sure that he enjoyed living in your care. *hugs*


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## JennybugJennifer

I feel really bad about it though >.<
I miss him. I'm just glad I got video of his singing. 
I'm scared for my fish now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Awwww, sweetie! I know EXACTLY how you feel. I recently lost the first fish I bought... when I got her I didn't know a thing about the nitrogen cycle, and she had to deal with all of that. I don't know why she died, or even how old she was - but I do feel responsible just because I know I unknowingly brought her home to cycling tank, and suspect that her lifespan was shortened because of that. But she made it through (with as much help as I was able to provide), and was a VERY happy and healthy girl up until the day she passed. I don't know how old she was, or how much harm my accidental fish-in cycle caused her, but I can take some comfort in knowing that I did my best, and the lives of EVERY fish to come after her are going to be in much better hands for what she taught me.

I don't think that most frog illnesses can get passed to the fish, though I could be wrong about this. The ones I've actually looked into have been fairly amphibian-specific, or caused by bad water conditions. It's so hard when the death in one of your tanks has you seeing everything as an illness. Keep a close eye out, keep the water clean, and I'm sure everything will be okay. . . I'm sorry. . . again.


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## Olympia

Yea, if he did have a frog disease, there's none that I know of that fish could get.
:-(

Chesh, my female frog is horrible! She learned to eat pellets and now she's outcompeting my cories for food! 
On the bright side I think she realized that shrimp aren't food for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

hahaha! You and your monster frog  I love her. . . but if she keeps _THIS _up she will end up all alone in a species-only tank - at least for a diet!


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## Chesh

*True love?*

GUESS WHAT!!!? GUESS WHAT!!!? GUESS WHAT I GOT TO SEE TODAY!!!!???

*MY FROGS - MATING!!! *. . .










I kind of felt bad watching them, but they didn't seem to mind one bit!








I am SO excited to have witnessed this. . . I just think these little frogs are so _NEAT_ to have around. I was hoping they'd pair up eventually, and have been listening for him to start calling to her. I never did, but I know what I saw and I saw. . .um. . . STUFF! :shock:

I was a little bit worried about Specks, cuz' she's been getting a bit chubby. Being female and older, she's already bigger than Freckles is, so I was nervous about feeding HER too much while HE wasn't getting enough. Guess she was just full of roe! Very, very cool stuff. . .

I'm not going to do anything to try to save the eggs, right now I have my hands too full of fish-related nonsense to really get into this with them. However, if they continue to pair up in the future, I'll do some investigation into setting up a tank with the specific idea of rearing taddies to frogs from eggs in mind. I've read that it can be very tricky, but I'd love to try growing a frog from scratch in my house, lol! :wink:

Anyway... just HAD to let you guys know! Love is in the air over here in the five gallon, and I am SO excited!!!


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## JennybugJennifer

That's awesome chesh. I did an immediate 75-90% water change after Frogger died and have both fish in it divided now. My shrimp are not living but that doesn't hurt y feelings. I miss Frogger though, my ears tease me and I think I hear his singing. 
Congrats chesh!! That's awesome! I may set up the 2.5 or : gallon and QT two more together then move them to the ten gallon or get a 5 on sale but I'll def cycle it first
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

I would have done the exact same thing in your shoes, I think. I'm sure the fish will be fine  Someday, when you're ready, you'll get _TWO_ new froggy friends. . . and do twice as well taking care of them from day one, because of all that Frogger taught you. And I wouldn't mind being haunted by the cheerful spirit of a singing frog! One wish I am SO JEALOUS that you got to hear (I hope Frecks sings some day ) - you even get to hear it when you don't have a frog


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## Olympia

Aggression between frogs? Is it possible?
Sad to report that the female must be TWICE the size of the male, and I've noticed he's getting thinner. So during bloodworm times today, I watched him and even target fed him with my.. bloodworm toothbrush (don't ask, I find it useful). I don't think she's sharing enough so looks like he'll be target fed from now on. There's still some worms in the tank and he's eating away at will now. I used a whole cube because I thought the hatchet fish would want some but apparently not. >_>
Well at first I thought it was an accident.. but, really... The female first locked jaws with the male (think cichlids fighting). Then she grabbed his front leg, then she grabbed his hind leg. And it's violent biting. I eventually pushed her to the opposite side of the tank with the toothbrush (all the while she was biting the toothbrush and trying to eat it).

I'm going to feed the boy bloodworms everyday, hopefully he'll get to a better size... Do you guys think this is actually aggressive behavior?


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## SpookyTooth

Chesherca! That's AWESOME! I hope you're able to raise froglets in future!!

Olympia, that sounds frightening!


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## Chesh

REALLY!!!? What a NUTTER! Are you ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, 100% SURE she's not a clawed frog??! Shows me how little I know about frog-keeping! I'm going to ask on a frog board I hang out on if they've ever heard of aggressiveness in ADF. Just because I've never seen or read about it doesn't mean it can't happen. My female is MUCH bigger than my male, too. The females just tend to be larger from what I've seen and read, but I had my female alone for quite some time before adding the male, so. . . he's still very young (though she was bigger at purchase, too). I've never seen anything other than foolish froggy bumbling. *chomp* *OW! That was my FOOT* *Whooooops!* *CHOMP* *HEY! MY FLIPPER!* Kind of thing. You'd think they could get along in a 20g tank!!! Crazy. . . 

Actually. . . the toothbrush idea is BRILLIANT! Does it work for shrimp, too? *wonders if they sell super long-handled toothbrushes*



Thanks, Spooks! I caught them at it again the other night, too!







I really hope that I am able to actually breed them successfully in the future. Just once, just to see! How are your fantastic critters doing? Any signs of mating yet? I'll have to PM you for a full update!


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## SpookyTooth

Hehe, I'm sure if they are happily married now they will be in future, especially with the love and care you give them!

My critters are doing well, thank you. No more moulting as of yet (I keep misreading the signs but am still learning so it's all okay) but I'm sure it'll happen soon! There unfortunately isn't that much to update right now... I keep checking Terra for eggs whenever I hear something hit the bottom of her and Gaia's enclosure (you can hear their frass hit the floor of the cage, quite funny) but she's not due to lay for another few weeks yet... ahhh!!!

I _am _in the midst of creating a stick insect nursery though that will be able to house around twenty babies! Definitely looking forward to finishing that. Also nearly completed Echo's tank makeover! Can't wait till tomorrow, we're picking up a new light fitting and getting the rest of the plants sorted.


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## Chesh

Awesome! Sounds like they're doing well, and that you're learning a lot  You'll have to post pics of Echo's new diggs when you get them all finished - I love your new siggy, btw. Very true. . .


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## SpookyTooth

I most certainly will! I'll be asking my father if I can borrow his camera to take some decent quality photos - very very excited! And thank you heh...


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## Olympia

Toothbrushes are a great tool! It scrubs algae AND feeds bloodworms!
I did double check and she is 100% ADF. Webbed front feet, no claws on front feet.

Okay.. so I don't know, this looks pretty disgusting, I didn't realize the size difference until I fished them out of the tank... For comparison, a Canadian dime is the same size as an American dime (was going to use a loonie or a toonie but I realized you don't have those in America).
I don't know, maybe the female is morbidly obese, maybe the male is emaciated.. But the boy does have some roundness to his belly after the target feeding!

FEMALE:
















MALE:

















What do you think Jes? :-(


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## Chesh

Limp, they look like mine, honest. I noticed that my female bulked up like that right before they started spawning, so I wonder if yours is full of roe. . . or bloodworm!? I got really nervous about her, thinking that maybe she was getting more to eat than Frecks (but I watch them eat, usually, and mine seem equally bad at finding food UNlike your female), I even fed Frecks by hand a few times and fasted her - no change. . . then they started to mate.

I wonder. . . if maybe . . . the 'aggression' is pre-spawning behavior that I've never read about or seen? OR if maybe he's a hair too young for spawning, but she's impatient, lol. I dunno... maybe Gizzy can help. 

Just to make you feel better, look at their bellies. See how they go like this () BOTH of them bow out slightly along the sides - not IN. One is obviously a bigger frog all around, but neither of them are starving, or even hungry, so I think you're fine  I've seen frogs before who's bellies go like this instead ) ( and THAT is not okay.


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## Chesh

REALLY pretty frogs, btw... just sayin' *luffs* Great shots, too!


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## Olympia

Full of roe.. hmm it's possible. Maybe that's why she's so mean, he won't mate with her!

Good to know he's an okay size too though. Phew!
Anyways, glad these frogs don't have teeth, otherwise it could have been much worse.

I read on PFK (I think that article you sent me) that scientists visit fish forums to learn about fish behavior.. maybe some scientist will be quietly researching what's going on here. ;-)


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## Chesh

Olympia said:


> I read on PFK (I think that article you sent me) that scientists visit fish forums to learn about fish behavior.. maybe some scientist will be quietly researching what's going on here. ;-)


Yup! So it said. . . if they ARE, hopefully one of them will step in and explain why your frog is psycho!!! :shock:


Love the new avatar, btw - AND the Hatchets!


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## Olympia

Hah. She's psycho alright. Maybe the male would be happier with a betta? I don't know. They seem to avoid each other in general. Maybe they aren't compatible, he probably wishes he had a chance to sign up for eHarmony. :-( He's stuck with some crazy lady.

I'm thinking about changing my avatar back to a betta. It's been like that for so long, this change is so bizarre!


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## Chesh

LOL! I'm still getting used to it. . . the betta had such a soft orangypinkish glow about them . . . but. . . you're moving on. It's good.

And your frog just might be, too (for goodness sake, can't you give these guys NAMES!?)

Unlucky in Love. . .
I am a single young male ISO single greyish/brownish female to share bloodworms and long tumbles in the Anacharis with. I am shy and sensitive, and have been searching for a life-long mate who will respect my needs in a long-term commitment. . .


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## Olympia

Moving on from the betta... Oh no! I wanted it to be the cichlids, but no good enough photos. :-(
See the signature? That's for you! ;-)

Poor boy frog. :-(

They DID have names.. but they were Appa and Momo, two boy names.

What would be a good name for a fat lady who harasses her skinny man? Hmmmmm.


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## Chesh

ATILLIA!!! (and he can be The Hun) ;-)



Olympia said:


> See the signature? That's for you! :wink:












HA-HA! No - I _DIDN'T_ notice it before. That's awesome! 
I said it before, and I'll say it again - BEST.QUOTE.EVER!!!


I'm sure you'll have _PLENTY_ of opportunities to get pictures of them when they're great giant beasts that just. . . hover around all day, lol! _GREAT_ shots of them in the future, I think. . . I'm sticking with Boober for now. He's always been my favorite Fraggle . . . he's probably afraid of fish, anyway. . .


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## Olympia

Atillia? Or Atilla?

Either way.. it's perfect. It's them. He's a hun. And she's an Atilla. xD

No one else will understand the quote.... :rofl:


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## Chesh

Sorry, Atilla. Yes. Absolutely 

They might not understand it. . . exactly. . . but it still makes perfect sense and applies in every way! Best.Quote.Ever. You need to put your name beneath it, tho - don't want anyone stealing that beauty!


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## JennybugJennifer

-giggles- pearl jumps when my fingers appear with lunch and dinner :lol:


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## JennybugJennifer

I was reading back, I miss my froggy


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## Olympia

Aww. :-(

In other news my girl frog (Atilla) is still obese. And Uhhhm, I swear... I put Cory pellets on the opposite side of the tank and she's down there in 3 minutes flat. O-O New solution is to spread pellets everywhere, because as fat as she is she can't be everywhere. Lil The Hun seems to avoid her... Hehehhe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SpookyTooth

As time goes by I keep coming up with new tank ideas, I've been bitten by the planted tank bug and have had an idea to modify another tank by building a filter _into_ it, I have it all planned out. I keep thinking how good it'd be for an ADF as I could cycle the thing before getting anything to put in it and the style of filter I'm going for is rather good for low flow/pond style tanks. Due to how I'd modify the tank it'd also be frog-proof.

Then I remember that I'd need another heater... and therefore another plug socket. My heart sinks as I'm running enough electricity right now without having another heater going.

I then come up with another plan to save some electricity by swapping out one light unit I'm using for my beetle tank with another, longer, more suitable light but realize that the light unit I want to trade out is being used with terrestrial plants and the other unit is catered for aquatic ones... I do not know if the light strip would work well enough for the plants in the beetle tank. I consider asking advice but at the end of the day I know right now I simply can't care for another tropical tank and I can't get singular or pairs of ADFs locally anyway.

I'm thinking of setting up this other tank anyway (more so I can experiment with the filter idea as much as anything else, should it not work the tank'd still be useable) and using it with a variety of shrimp I've raised in the past, one that doesn't need a heater except for its larvae stage, I can sit it in my heated propagator for that time... then I remember that I need to hook my heated propagator out for use with stick insect eggs that haven't been laid yet and remember my electricity usage.

I need to stop thinking for once I reckon :lol: I suddenly miss my divided tank and wish I had the room for our old 22gal so I could divide it in three with two built-in filters to act as the dividers.

Excuse my rambling.


----------



## Chesh

LOL! Lympi. . . females ARE supposed to be bigger than males, but poor Atilla sounds like a BEAST! Still no word back on aggression issues, I'll have to ask again. . .

Spooks! I know the feeling of too many plans and too few outlets, lol! It sounds like you've got some great ideas to try out in the future, though - I'll be looking forward to a build thread when you get that far - the filter idea sounds intriguing. You've got your hands full of so many cool creatures over there. . . frogs can wait. . . just a *little* while longer


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## SpookyTooth

Heh I know you're right  I can most certainly wait for them (they'll be even more worth it once I finally get to hear those quirky little songs)... I think _really_ my issues lie with my inability to work and move forward with life. I shan't get into a rant about it but I'm generally frustrated.

My animals give me focus and I adore taking care of them, I just feel I could provide so much more to them if I was well enough to work and live on my own (when that day finally comes... hello 20gallon long ;-))... but patience is a virtue! All good things come in time and I'll do what I can in the meantime to ensure my current beasties are as happy as possible.

It also helps reading about all of your froggies!

I will also hopefully be doing a journal about the filter... lots of photos! I can't wait to see how things pan out.


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## Olympia

BIRDIE!

We got black aquarium silicone. I think it looks better than clear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Olympia

Olympia said:


> BIRDIE!
> 
> We got black aquarium silicone. I think it looks better than clear.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wrong thread. Wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

hahaha! Lympie, I was wondering what you were on about birdies for, lol! Congrats on the silicone of your dreams, though. . .

Spooks, I can imagine your frustration, I sincerely hope that the day comes when you WILL be able to do all of the things you're wishing for. I can just picture the wonderful home you'll make for yourself - and all your happy creatures, someday. Love the new avi, btw. CUTE!


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## SpookyTooth

Thank you for the vote of faith... it does help. I can't wait for that day - I have so much planned already LOL! Ah well one can hope.

Oh yes! Echo is a silly bugger. Thanks x]


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## Olympia

Yep. Black silicone. <3 :-D

Anyways.. Here's Atilla the tubs. -sigh- She decided to show off her belly.





























.... -sigh-
ADFs don't do well in communities they said. They get out competed by everything they said.

I'm _reeeeeaally _hoping it's just eggs though.


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## Chesh

OH MY GOOOOOODNESS!!!! Okay, from the TOP view, she looks like mine, from underneath? She's WAY fatter!!! She's, like, a little ball of frog! No wonder you're worried. I don't know! I've gone down to feeding mine every other day, even though the little guy is soooo small compared to my female. I've read that they should only be fed every other day once they reach adulthood, and since they mated, I guess. . . that makes him an adult. But since she's in a community, I don't know if fasting is something that is even do-able. I hope she's just fat or eggy, and not actually ill. Mine DID get fatter just before they mated. . . so yeah, hopefully she's just slipping into something a little more comfortable. . . in a froggy kinda way. :/

ETA: I REALLY just wanna POKE that tummy! Or blow raspberries on it. Sorta. . . I mean, it's just so CUTE!!! D'aaawwwwww, frog tums


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## Olympia

I must feed my cories! :-(
I don't know.. uhh no bloodworms for her tonight I guess. What a weird frog I've ended up with. I guess, there you go, she's fat.


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## Chesh

Hey. . .









2 Female Dwarf African Frogs resting at the surface of an aquarium. 

Female Dwarf African Frog - Hymenochirus boettgeri on the left 
Female Dwarf African Frog - Hymenochirus curtipes on the right 



Watcha think? Maybe yours is just a different brand of ADF than mine? That kind IS awfully chubby


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## Olympia

Why are they resting on their backs?... xD

Hmm. So maybe I have the fat kind?


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## Chesh

Because they're silly little frogs, and the person who took this picture, Stuart, has a REALLY nice setup for them - they're happy, resting on floating plants at the surface, lol! I've never seen MINE do this - but I have seen my male laying on his back on the floor. He started off in zen and just. . . drifted over, lol!

Yeah, maybe - Hymenochirus Curtipes? My female looks like the one on the left, so maybe she's boettgeri?


----------



## Olympia

Sooo... is it possible the male is the skinny kind?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Actually those females are pressed between floating plants and the glass of the aquarium. Lol and don't worry about overweight females unless they can't swim down from the surface, that is when you have to think it may be dropsy, and at that point start looking out for 'shrek balloon frogs' because dropsy does attack ADFs too. 

Your female is beautiful and chubby, I wish I could get a good shot of my current female, but let me go and scour my photobucket for old pics of my previous pair, Jackie was pretty huge too... Lol

EDIT:
Jackie!! 









And Jackie beside my albino male Casper: 











Also!! Wishes do come true! Current female Bonnie resting at the surface, lookit that fat belly!:


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## Chesh

OMG!!!! LITTLE TINY CHUBBY FROGGY STUMMIES ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CUTE!!! *SQUEEEEEEEE* Glad to hear big is beautiful in the frog realm!  Thanks, Giz - I knew you'd know!


----------



## Olympia

Hehehehehe Atilla. Atilla the Hun choked to death.. isn't that ironic?

Uhh Giz, do you know about why the female would be attacking the male? They avoid each other now, but at feeding time one day it got really violent. o-o


----------



## SpookyTooth

Wow! That albino frog is amazing!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol thanks! And yeah, I'm sorry I wasn't here sooner, I've been sick. Heh..

I have never seen frogs attack each other persay, what most likely happened is that she, having very poor eyesight, thought he was trying to eat all of the food/ he was food, and hurried to eat. Lol

And yeah, I miss Cas... He caught red-leg and passed...


----------



## Chesh

I hope you're feeling better, and that the little one stays well - sick kiddo's can be beastly. Sorry for your frog  He was a cutie!

Olympia, look at these females - they'll make you feel MUCH better. OMG FAT!

Martin Truckenbrodt's African Dwarf Clawed Frogs - Hymenochirus spec. 1

Mine are BOTH still youngish, especially the male, so maybe yours is just older and more. . .ahhhh. . . full!


----------



## SpookyTooth

I hope you're well now, Gizmo! Thanks for sharing the photos of your previous frogs, they were both beautiful.

I love the discussion about tubby frogs, it's made a tiring day better :lol:


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## Gizmothefreaky

Goodness... That female is scary fat. Lmao!! But apparently very healthy. Lol

I have pictures of Cas with his red legs if anyone wants to see what that looks like? I think they are very educational...

And am feeling much better now, thank you do much!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Jackie:

















Casper:

























Both together:

























I miss these two all the time, i think they are my favorites that i have ever had... lol


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## Chesh

They were such CUTIES!!! The difference in size between males and females is pretty dramatic, isn't it? I never realized until I got a male, and I've been assuming that he's still small. . . now it's looking like he might actually be full-size! He was smaller from the time I brought him home than Specks, the female.


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## Gizmothefreaky

yeah, lol there really is a huge difference between males and females, but they are great either way. XD


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## Chesh

Both of my frogs have a pinkinshness about their legs. . . I always assumed it to be normal coloration? Should I worry?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Here, I'll show you guys what red-leg in an albino looks like... This is just two days before he passed away, there was also fuzz around his feet, so just pinkish shouldn't be a problem, only if they start to get like... Blood colored. Heh...


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## JennybugJennifer

Awe red leg is horrible  poor little guy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah, I miss him terribly... Poor dear.


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## Chesh

Oh my goodness, that is just SO sad!!! *cries* I pray I never have to see that in person, how terrible that must have been for you - and him.









Thank you for posting these, I know it must have been sad for you to look at them again, but it IS good for us, and other frog-keepers who might happen upon them during searches, to know. . . 

Based on those images, I'm going to continue to think the pinkishness is coloration - it's only slight, on their skinny little thighs, so probably just veins showing through the skin.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah, he really struggled the last couple days, but that just goes to show you how fragile these little guys are, and how easily they can go downhill...

They are educational now, as much as I love and miss him, he started out from a bad pet shop, and lived only about a year before getting sick, and only after his mate Jackie had passed away suddenly, which leads me to believe it had to have been from depression...


----------



## Olympia

Wow.. that's sad. I honestly didn't know ADFs got sick besides chytrid fungus.

I guess.. I should be glad my little girl is so fat.
Still thought the attacking thing was weird. She just kept repeatedly grabbing at him. They locked jaws even. Poor little Hunny.


----------



## Chesh

I've read a lot of sad stories like this one, but I think that overall ADF are considered to be pretty tough little buggers - especially considering how tiny they are! I'm SO glad that I've never had to deal with an illness with my babies... it's so difficult to know what meds are safe for them . . but one thing. . . I have to say that I am AMAZED at their ability to heal after injury/trauma/stress. When poor Specks got sucked into the filter, she was pale as a ghost, and not okay at all, but after a couple of days in peace and quiet, she was nearly 100% back to normal. She still has a tear in her back flipper between two of her 'toes' that probably will always be with her, but it doesn't bother her in the least, and she's active and happy. I was so sure she was a goner, but she bounced back in record time. . .


----------



## Pixielator

Hi Gizmo. I was told not to use betta medicines or AQ salt for ADFs. I was wondering if there is any thing that I can use to prevent/treat parasites, fungus, and diseases?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Melafix is actually a great med. but as far as prevention, the best way to do that is to make sure the water is clean. Aq salt is good for minor things. I find that most meds say not to use with scaleless fish, which I personally think is not safe for ADFs. So really if it is safe for scaleless fish, it is safe for frogs.  

Do you have a sick little guy on your hands? Please ask all the questions you need.


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## Pixielator

No, I just came home with 2 new ADFs. I've never owned them before. I'm just trying to make sure that they're healthy right now and that if they become sick in the future, I'll have what I need to make them healthy again. I was also wanting to put them in with my bettas once their quarantine is done, but the more I read about them, the more I want them to just have their own tank.
I was told never to use salt for scaleless fish. I thought that was bad for them?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

My Khulis, cories, and ADFs have never had a bad reaction to aq salt. I just half the dose if treating just them, or if I have to dose the whole tank, I dose half as often, but at full strength. 

You can set up your two frogs in a five gallon at the smallest if you want just them in the tank, which I think is a great idea for someone just starting out.


----------



## Pixielator

Okay, that sounds good.  Thanks for answering my questions, I just have a few more.
Do they like/dislike strong currents?
I have a bunch of itty bitty baby mealworms because I breed them for my gecko, I was wondering if the frogs might enjoy them too?
And what are illnesses that I should look out for in my ADFs? I already know a few of them like dropsy, red leg, and the one you talked about in the original post, but are there more that I should be aware of?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

They are not the strongest of swimmers, so no strong currents. I am not sure they would e able to digest the mealworms, and most illnesses that frogs tend to get, you won't know until it is too late... The problem with these guys is that they are very stoic in the face of illness and injury, because if you show that you are weak in the wild, you get eaten. I would just try to keep an eye out for those three, as they are the most common and the easiest to spot, and keep meds on hand. 

I cannot say enough how good melafix is for fish other than bettas, I have a 20 gallon that I am treating right now, it is a community, and was also home to a five girl sorority... Well all give girls just went belly up for seemingly no reason at all last night, and now some of the other inhabitants are doing the same... My specs are great, and I do frequent water changes, but they are still just... Rolling over on me left and right. So I am dosing the tank with melafix, and hoping that works... :/ I have terrible luck with sororities... I've had three in the last year, all of which have ended in total loss of all females due to some illness... *sigh* I give up on sororities, seriously...


----------



## SpookyTooth

I'm so sorry Gizmo! That's awful... I remember when that happened with my shrimp I was utterly devastated - but I figured out what happened, I can't imagine how you must feel.

I wish I could offer some form of advice or idea as to what happened but I've never dealt with a sorority and know nothing of their complexities.


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## Chesh

Pixie - Welcome to the ADF world! Putting them in their own tank will really be best, good decision! I know you'll come to love these little guys- we're all huge fans (obviously!) good luck with your newbies!!!

Giz- I second Spooks on this one, Giz - I'm sorry! You have been having a rough time over there. Betta can be so tricky, because they come to us in such horrible shape from the fish store. . . with all of the fuss PETA makes over everything, even getting ADF banned in some areas, I really wish they'd focus ALL of their power on forcing pet stores to keep Betta properly in filtered conditions. . . *hugs*


----------



## Pixielator

Gizmo - Thanks so much for the information. I'm really sorry about your community tank. :/

Chesherca - Thanks.  I already like these guys a lot, but I'm sure once I get to know their personalities better I'll like them even more.


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## Chesh

I have no doubt that this will be the case for you, as it was for all of us, lol!!! Keep us posted on how they do, and good luck to you!


----------



## Olympia

I don't know if I like Atilla's personality very much.....
xD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Olympia said:


> I don't know if I like Atilla's personality very much.....
> xD
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BWAHAHAHA!!! _SHE_ doesn't count. She's, like, half ADF and half demon . . . ;-)


----------



## Olympia

Yes, half demon.. she also rushes across from the other side of the tank as soon as I drop pellets in... Blind my butt.


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## Chesh

ROFL!!! She's a genetically engineered SUPER FROG! It will never cease to amaze me how different everyone's experiences are with any given animal. . .


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## LittleWatty

(posting here because I know this place gets views, and I know there's an expert on ADFs around here somewhere!)
I bought two ADFs yesterday. One looks really healthy, and is eating (I've seen him do it). The other... doesn't look so great. He's really sickly skinny, I can pretty much see right through him, and I haven't seen him eat. I've got him in a betta cup with some food, and I'm doing periodic water changes throughout the day, just to keep any nitrogen levels down (both from frog and decaying food). Any suggestions on how to be sure he eats, and to fatten him up?


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## Olympia

LittleWatty- I have no clue.. but Jes should be here soon.



Sooo, Atilla now gets into pellet wars with my farlowella pleco. They always shove each other around, yesterday he started sucking on her head (quickly pushed him off)! Removal? No, this only happens during feeding time so I can handle it, just gotta watch them. It's just... ATILLA. :-( She did start it by shoving him away from the food.
Just.... Just....... _Neither _of them are supposed to even eat these pellets! Grrrr. They're for my poor cories!


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## Chesh

Hey, Watty! I don't know if I can be considered an 'expert' but I can try to help!

First, it IS common for boy frogs to be much smaller than girls. If you go over the last few pages, you should see a few comparisons that were made recently between the two.

It isn't uncommon for a new frog to be stressed out when you first bring them home. Sometimes they don't eat for a couple of days, and that's okay. However, it IS concerning - especially when the other one is settling in so well. . . It was good thinking to separate him from the other, but with frogs. . . it might not have the desired effect. For the most part (and as far as I have read) since you got them at the same time from the same shop, any illness that one has will have already affected the other. Plus having a buddy around may well help him feel more comfortable. I would put him back into the other tank, because it may only increase his stress to be kept in a little cup that needs the water changed so often to keep the water clean. I would just back off, wait, and watch. Leave the lights off, and make sure the little guy has plenty of cover/hiding places as he adjusts to his new home. If you're seeing a problem (like Olympia has) with the bigger frog taking all of the food, you can try to target feed the little guy using a pair of tweezers or a turkey baster - or just putting it right in front of his little face, so he doesn't have to 'find' it.

May I ask what you're feeding them? Some frogs (mine!) will absolutley not take the pellets, ever. Wet-frozen brine shrimp or bloodworm (defrosted, of course) is a good place to start with these guys. 

I'd give them very small amounts - maybe about as big as a half- of a pea EACH. They can and will eat until they pop, and over-feeding can cause bloat, which is not something you want to have to deal with. Clean up whatever hasn't been eaten after a bit, but it's not good to just leave it in there. In situations like this, I personally find it very helpful to quietly sit back and watch for a while to make sure they've eaten, and take the food out when you're done watching. You need to know for sure if he's eating or not. . . 

I hope this helps somewhat, good luck on your little guy - please keep us posted on how he does. I hope he's okay!


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## LittleWatty

I did browse the thread a bit first  They're about the same size, just one is really skinny and it looks like he has no meat on him what so ever. His skin is also really pale as well compared to the "fat" one.

Lots of little hiding places for all of them. Betta included. I've got two tall plants that will obscure the view from betta to frog when one or both go up for air. Also have a hollow resin log, a couple java fern, and a fluval chi plastic (yeah, plastic...) clover type carpet thing in one corner of the tank. Too thick for much other than the frogs to get into. There's a little cranny between the carpet, the log, and my live banana plant that the frogs just seem to love hiding in. Very dark, very secluded, despite being in the middle of the tank. I'll definitely be getting more cover for them at some point in time, I just have to wait for my next paycheck.

I've got Frog & Tadpole bites as well as frozen bloodworms. I've tried the little bites, but they don't seem to like them. The bloodoworms are a hit with the healthy looking frog, and also with their betta "overlord" XD I have to cup the betta in order to feed them, otherwise he snatches up all the food. So far I think I've seen the skinny one take one bloodworm since he's been here, and that was this morning. I'll definitely take your advice and put the skinny one in with the healthy one. Only reason I was keeping him separate was to make sure he actually got food. Despite looking so sickly, he was the only one that was really active at Petco XD I'm guessing he might have been there a while, considering the shape he was in. Most of the others were plump, but weren't really moving around much. (the employee that got them for me was really clueless, made me wish that the other employee I had made friends with was the one that helped me. Her last job made her go to fish school, and she definitely knows her stuff)


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## Chesh

I can understand the desire to 'cup' him, considering the circumstances - especially if you're more familiar with Betta! But I do suspect that for a frog it would be best to let him get used to his new home, so I'm glad to hear that you're putting him back - it sounds like you have a great environment set up in there for all of them! 

I also had trouble feeding in community, most of us do - Olympia is the weird exception, since her female frog dominates the entire tank at feeding time, lol! This is not usually the case, I've found! Cupping your betta - if it doesn't cause him undo stress - isn't a bad idea, at least until the froggies are used to the feeding routine.

If you got him to eat a bloodworm or two, it sounds like he's on the right track! The paleness can be a sign of stress - I've seen it before, and it's frightening! Hopefully it's ONLY stress, and a day or two of settling in with high-protein blood-worms and dim lighting will do the trick to get him back on track. Another thing to consider is that younger frogs tend to be more lightly colored than older ones, so it *may* be that his lack of color and skinny frame are just because he's younger than the other. Do you happen to be able to post pictures of them both up? I'd love to actually see the guy. 

MY Petsmart feeds their frogs on wet-frozen goodies. I can't remember offhand if it was bloodworm or Brine - I think Brine, so it might be worth asking them what the frogs are used to being fed in-shop - he may take it better at first. But generally speaking ALL frogs love bloodworm, and it should fatten him up pretty quickly - as long as he actually continues to eat the stuff.

It really sounds like you're doing everything right, I think. . .just let him settle in and keep the lights low, and he'll be fine. You can try to offer him another bite to eat this evening, since they're nocturnal they're more comfortable feeding at that time of day. Since all of these are tank-bred, it doesn't necessarily matter as a general rule, but it can't hurt to try 

Good luck!!! He sounds like a cutie!


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## LittleWatty

I'll definitely get pictures as soon as I find my camera XD its MIA at the moment. Its probably just be hiding in the mess of half destroyed boxes and plastic from things I got at Petco recently XD

Cupping does stress Tintrí a bit, but he handles it a lot better than most of my other bettas. He gorged himself on the frog's food this morning, though, so I cupped him and tried again.

So far the skinny frog has been exploring the bottom of the tank. I added a bunch of what I believe is java moss just to give them more cover on the bottom of the tank. Once I get my paycheck, I'll be getting some low/small growing plants like dwarf hair grass and maybe a small crypt to give them some more natural cover.

Also, I'll definitely have to be keeping an eye out for the Chytrid Fungus. My Petco has both ADF and ACF, but they're not housed in the same tanks. ADF's are in the community tanks, ACF's in the plant tank.


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## LittleWatty

Camera located!  Forgive the loads of pictures XD

First set is the skinny frog. Then the split tank (Dov on left, unoccupied middle, and Tintrí right), and their betta "overlord" Tintrí who is still bloated from this mornings feast of frog food. Then the healthy frog is last. Doing that order so the frogs don't get mixed up lol

On the tank pictures, you can kind of see a flat river rock that I was going to use as a "plate" for the frogs. Might move it to a more secluded place.


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## SpookyTooth

Aww he does look skinny. Good luck with both of them! That betta is gorgeous, by the way. I saw a steel/silver halfmoon at my favourite pet store a while ago and absolutely loved the little thing, such a wonderful colouring!


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## LittleWatty

Tintrí is still stressed from being cupped earlier (and from the new tank with water movement vs. his old kritter keeper) so his colors aren't coming in nearly as nice as they normally do. He's got an album on my profile that shows his colors far better.


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## LittleWatty

Just found both frogs right next to each other, which was the perfect opportunity to get a shot of both to show how different they are. Healthy looking dark frog on left, skinny pale frog on right (notice how gaunt he is?). He also has these weird opaque kneecaps. Don't know if its just the bone being right up against the skin for lack of meat, or what, but his joints are really really pale, especially the knees.


----------



## Chesh

Yup! He's hungry allright! I wouldn't worry too much about the knees, as long as the skin isn't broken - I've seen that before, and actually one of my babies has it, too - but it's gotten MUCH better since he came to live with me  I've never read anything about it being an issue, OR about it being normal. Maybe Giz will stop by with some more info on that.

The setup is PERFECT for them, and the fact that he's come out to explore a bit tells me that he's already feeling a bit more comfortable. I wish there was another place for you to put the betta while they settle in, at least. It's much easier to let them feed at their leisure, and we sure don't want that beauty of a Betta getting bloat from all the bloodworms!!! It is what it is, though - I'm sure you'll work it out!

I think he'll do very well in here. Just give a little bit of time for him to settle in and get used to things. There is no doubt that your tank is MUCH nicer for a frog than the one he was in at PetSmart! If you look at a frog from above or below you can see that their stomachs are located slightly to the left of their spines. A frog with a full tummy is easy to spot, as their left sides will gently curve outward. As it is - it looks like his bows IN, which isn't so good! Hopefully the bloodworm fatten him up quickly for you, and he'll be feeling fine in no time. I wish we had some history, it could be that he wasn't as big/aggressive as the others during feeding time and so never got his fair share - hopefully that's just it, and not an actual sickness, so he'll be chubbing up soon under your watchful care.

Good call to keep a sharp eye out for Chyrtrid. There ARE treatment options available, so if you have to take that route, we can help guide you through. If it's caught early enough, the frogs can recover.  There has also been a raised level of awareness about Chytrid, and many shops have taken steps to prevent the spread of this terrible illness. I don't know about petCO, but PetSmart tests all of their frogs, so hopefully PetCo does the same.


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## LittleWatty

I can definitely ask the one employee that I trust with fish stuff. She's never lead me wrong, and her last job actually made her take weekly classes on all the fish they sold. I don't know her schedule, but she knows me now, and stops by to see if I need anything whenever I'm there. If anyone in my Petco knows about whether or not they treat to prevent the fungus, it'll be her.

I'm hoping the bloodworms will do him good. At the very least I could just put Tintrí over to the middle section while feeding the frogs, but without that filter baffled, I don't trust any of my fish in the middle. Its a Tetra Whisper PF10, and it came with the 15 gallon kit (which was a steal. 15 gallons, filter, heater, hood+light, food, and conditioner for $50)


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## Chesh

Sorry, to be clear - these are not symptoms of Chytrid  But always good to ask her if they take steps to prevent it in their frogs


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## LittleWatty

Yeah, I didn't read those to be symptoms XD So, I guess there was a miscommunication on both ends! Whether he develops it or not, I definitely want to check with them and see, because if these two frogs work out, I'll be getting two more for Dov (and I'll fix his side of the tank to work better with them when the time comes). If they do take steps to prevent the fungus, should I still quarantine any new frogs for the 3 month period it usually takes to run its course? Or would they be ok going right in?


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## Chesh

*I* would... you can't really be too sure, and it would suck to bring these two down with the newbies :/ I don't know about PetCo, but I've spoken to the head veterinarian at PetSmart, and they've taken great pains to ensure that the frogs they get in are clean. STILL. . . better safe than sorry, I think. 3 months is a killer QT period. . . I'm hoping mine breed and I can get my NEW frogs from in-house, so I know they'll be okay, lol!!!


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## LittleWatty

Lol yeah, that would be awesome XD I'll be quite alright if my fat frog is female, and the skinny one is male, and that's why they look so different lol Otherwise, I do have a Petsmart that's about a half hour drive away. If my Petco doesn't have clean frogs, I might try them first and see what they do about it. If there's are 100% clean before they come in, then I'll definitely get 2 from there after I've had these guys for a while (or, to replace one, if need be... I do hope not, though!)


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## Olympia

Did you see my male/female frog photos?


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## LittleWatty

Not yet. Haven't gotten all the way through this thread quite yet. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for them, though


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## Olympia

Healthy male/female ADF pair on page 51. (And some more shots of the monster girl showing off her tummy on page 53). ;-)


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## LittleWatty

Yeah, mine don't even look CLOSE to that XD my healthy one maybe looks like the male in terms of body shape


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## Olympia

Mine have grown a ton since I got them, so don't worry too much about it yet.


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## LittleWatty

Well, I hope I give them the care they need to grow that big  (and I really hope I do have one male, one female XD I'd have so much fun with frogs)


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## LittleWatty

Skinny boy is eating!  I saw him gobble up a few bloodworms this morning (while Tintri was cupped in the middle section). Both are still alive, and seem to be doing well for now. I really think putting them together made Skinny feel better (just a temporary name!). He didn't eat much when he was cupped, but I did see a bloodworm hanging out of his mouth at one time. Now he's chomping away at whatever I give them.


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## Chesh

YAY!!! I'm sure you're right, and that being with a buddy- and in that beautiful tank - has helped him to feel super comfortable with his new home! You're doing a great job with your new little froglets! Hopefully it'll be smooth sailing from here on!


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## LittleWatty

Hope so! Tintrí managed to get himself stuck under the fluval chi bushy thing when I released him, because there was a bloodworm in there the frogs hadn't eaten yet XD maybe he'll learn his lesson.


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## Chesh

lol! He won't. . .


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## LittleWatty

I can't imagine XD but, hopefully he'll learn the cup means food (I've been feeding him in his cup since I got the frogs) so he won't get as stressed out by it. Seems the only solution until the frogs start getting enough of an attitude to keep Tintrí from their food!

Edit: He actually just went and got himself stuck again XD


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## LittleWatty

Another double post. When am I going to stop doing this? lol

Is it normal for a young ADF to look like he has the hiccups? >.> Whenever Skinny eats, he'll make a jab at wherever he thinks he sees food (sometimes he gets it, most of the time he misses), every second or so, he'll kind of jump backwards and up while opening his mouth, back legs spread wide. Nothing comes out, but really looks like he's got the hiccups! The other one doesn't do that, as far as I've seen.


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## Chesh

Yup! Perfectly normal - and very_ SILLY_, I might add! I've seen both of mine do this, and though I'm not sure, I suspect it has something to do with the way they get the food down/digest, since they don't have any teeth. I could be wrong about that, but I do know that it's normal! :-D Such a good froggy momma you are - it makes me happy to see the attention you pay to your little ones. Sounds like things are going well over there!


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## LittleWatty

Well enough, except that I have to keep punishing Tintri for eating their food! XD I had to switch him and Dov around last night because he gorged himself until he looked like he was going to pop. Again >.< I don't like having to do it, but until the frogs actually eat all their food, I'll have to.

I've also been mixing some pellets in with their bloodworms. If I feed them using the turkey baster (which they now recognize!) they'll eat them, but it looks like they spit it out in little itty bits. I dunno XD but, they still take the bloodworms, that's for sure.


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## Chesh

Yes... feeding in-community can be a very difficult task, and is why my frogs are now in a species-only tank. It's just too hard to make sure the slow-poke frogs get enough and the faster fish don't end up with bloat (that is, unless you're Olympia - her Atilla is the exception to the rule!)

If you can get them to take pellets, that's awesome! Mine won't. . . If yours continue to eat mostly bloodworm, you *may* want to look into getting some other types of wet-frozen froods (brine shrimp, mysis, etc) to mix things up a bit for them. It's usually best for them to be fed on a variety of foods. Mine love tiny bits of raw tilapia fillet, which is cheap and easy to find in the grocery store.


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## Olympia

Atilla likes food. End of story.
Uhh, The Hun also doesn't have much problem. But my community is extremely placid and they are the most aggressive things in my tank.. When you look at, say betta or tetra, that's when the problems begin. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Tetra? REALLY???! I didn't have a problem with the Tetra in with my frogs. Betta, yeah - guppies and mollies - FORGET it, but TETRA!? They seem so sweet! Species-only all the way for me. . . of course. . . if my JellyBeans have a problem, they'll be heading in with the froggies! *crossed fingers* for that one to go over well!


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## Olympia

I don't know, your tetra look like sweeties, but I know most tetra have a vicious side to them.. My hatchet fish are in the same family but they just sit still and look clueless all day. Love the little guys though. "Floating plants are a must." They all stay in the one part of the tank with no floating plants. xD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh

True, true. . . there is quite a broad range covered in the Tetra family, so I'm sure that, like any fishy, these things will vary. My tiny little 'uns ARE super sweet, but. . .I've never had them in a community, so I don't *REALLY* know. I imagine that with a MAX SIZE of 1.2 inches. . . they kind of exist to feed other, larger, fish - how much aggression can be packed into a frame that TEENSY?! Plus, being wild-caught, they still more or less refuse to eat food that's on the substrate - though there are a few who have gotten bolder and have been caught poking around for leftovers. This makes me happy (for now) as it means less to clean up, but. . . well, hopefully they WON'T end up with my froggies, and everything will be fine 

Dontcha just LOVE it when the 'rules' given for a fish are so totally wrong when you bring them home? Floating plants. . . *giggle* in my experience, EVERY rule is totally false when applied to ANY of the wet pets I keep! Am I doing something wrong? I don't get it! :???:

As long as they're happy and healthy, they can be rule-breakers, too, I suppose. . . ;-)


----------



## LittleWatty

Yeah, I've thought about the Talapia filets. Not only can I enjoy them, but so can the frogs! lol I'm really hoping to train Tintri to like the cup, so that I can keep him in there for an hour or more (whatever it takes for the frogs to finish their food) when it comes to it. He tolerates it better than the others, but still doesn't like it. Good thing is, his bloat went down overnight. I'm still not feeding him today though, just so he can really clear out his system.


----------



## Pixielator

Is their poop supposed to float? And what color should it be?


----------



## LittleWatty

Honestly, I couldn't tell you Pixielator. I tried looking up some info on it, but came up empty  Sorry I couldn't help. Hopefully someone with far more experience with these cuties can give you an answer.

I did want to post a little mini update on my two frogs, though. Skinny is not so skinny anymore!  It could be he's still full from this morning's feast, but his body is filling out, and he doesn't look like skin and bones anymore. I can always tell if its Skinny vs. Tubby (yeah... temp names, but they work for now!) because Skinny has those really opaque kneecaps, where as Tubby doesn't.


----------



## Olympia

I'm glad your frog is feeling better, Watty. 

I have no idea about their poop, my tank is so densely planted and I've never seen them actually pooping. I think Jes has seen frog poop, like once, ahahah, maybe she has an idea.


----------



## Chesh

Frog poop, lol. . .

Yeah, frog poop seems to be less like fish poop and more like, well, frog poo! It can float, or not, but more or less seems to dissolve into the water itself, so from what *I* have seen (or not seen) it's more about water changes and less about getting the actual detritus out, like it is for fish.

SKINNY IS LOOKING GOOOOOD! If you have a male and a female, then she will always be bigger, so don't worry about that. As long as he's eating and plumping up a bit,I'm sure all is well. And I don't know about the kneecaps, I was concerned about my little male as he also had them when I brought him home. Maybe it's a male thing, or has something to do with age? Or maybe it was from being kept on gravel at the fish shop - I'm not sure. My little Freckle's knees are still a *bit* on the pale side, but have gotten WAY better since I brought him home. I'm betting your Skinny's knees will darken up too, as he grows up and has a few skin sheds


----------



## LittleWatty

Since I've given an update on Skinny, I'd figure I'd also give one on Tubby, who I'm beginning to think is female!

Also, once I get these two fattened up a bit, I'm not sure how often I should feed them. Right now, I'm giving them two decent sized meals a day. One in the morning, then one at night. Bloodworms mixed with Frog & Tadpole pellets (though they don't seem to like the pellets much). Should I cut it back to one meal a day, once they reach a decent size, or keep up with the two? I read somewhere that they should be fed once every FEW days, but that didn't sound right!


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## Chesh

OOOOH!!!! My guess is the the Tubster is, in fact, a BOY!!! I could be wrong - but in the picture it looks like there are small pinkish 'pimple' under his arm? If there are, these are called post auxiliary subdermal glands - and only the males have them  I'ts possible they could be different ages, and that could have something to do with the size differences, too?

You should feed them once daily, mine seem to prefer getting fed in the evening (which would be their feeding time in nature) and reward me with a ton of activity when I feed them at the start of their most active time of day. The 'rule' seems to be that once the frogs hit maturity (usually at around 9 months of age) to decrease feedings to every other or every third day . . . that said. . . I still usually feed mine once daily, cuz' I like to see them eat! But I've been trying to cut back to every other day lately. I'd really hate to over-feed them and cause any issues


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## Olympia

Atilla knows when feeding time is coming up and starts swimming around the tank like crazy. 

I see hit arm pit pimple (omg I sound so smart) too. Probably a boy.


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## Chesh

Olympia said:


> (omg I sound so smart)


Girl, you just_ KNOW_ I_ LIVE _to bust out the post auxiliary subdermal gland bit! NOTHING is more fun than using so many gigantic and hard-to-spell words. . . to say something. . . as simple as. . . ARMPIT PIMPLE!


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## LittleWatty

Oh, I see that now! XD I completely forgot about those, I was just looking at the body shape. I'll have to look for that when I feed them tonight. I have heard that females sometimes get them too, they're just smaller and less pronounced?


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## Chesh

*shrug*_ I've _never read that before, but it could be! I'm sure you'll figure it out as they get older


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## LittleWatty

Oh, I'm hoping so! I just really hope I've got a male and a female, because then I won't have to worry about buying new frogs! XD But, Skinny has a lot of growing up to do. For all I know, Skinny's a she!


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## Olympia

I like armpit pimples! :O
But. . . WHAT do they do? Post= After. Auxiliary= help/support?. Subdermal= under the skin. Gland= stuff comes out of it.
Obviously, something with breeding. But what, Jes, what?


----------



## LittleWatty

Tubby definitely has those armpit pimples! I just looked, and they're on both sides. Skinny doesn't have them yet, but he/she could be stunted and/or younger. But, hopefully Skinny is female


----------



## Chesh

The funny thing? The mysterious and mythological "THEY" that rule our universe aren't even SURE!!! They think it has something to do with mating. . .


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol... Wow, I'm just going to be over here... XD back to work!! *zips away to continue answering phones*


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## Chesh

GIZZY!!! COME BACK!!! WE MISS YOU!!! Why are you going to be over there? 
Wait, where? 
There?! -------->


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## Olympia

Maybe she's there?
<-----

Haha, silly Giz! Confusing us simple frog people!


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## Chesh

Where'd she _GO!?_


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## LittleWatty

Somewhere away from us! XD


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## Gizmothefreaky

Sorry, had to work. XD the next couple weeks are going to be BUSY!! I finally foun a place and my move in date is officially the first! I can finally set up my 55 gallon tank (gunna be a pair of angels and a mixed bag of platys, mollies, and guppies, and one dwarf guarami.... Oh yeah, and frogs until the angels get bigger, they are about nickle sized right now, no danger to anyone)!! I will also be redoing my 30 gallon axxie tank and all of the 2.5s that my male bettas ate in!! I'm so excited!!


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## SpookyTooth

Congratulations Gizmo!!  That is so awesome!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Thanks!! I'm going to be pretty busy with live plants and all lol! All of the tanks are being converted to planted tanks... Well not the axxie tank, but the others! I may even eventually set the 20 back up and try a sorority again... Or I'll just use it as a grow out... Because I've been thinking about breeding... >_>


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## Chesh

*WOOT* Sounds like things are definitley looking UP for you!!!!


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## LittleWatty

If you ever breed ADFs, let me know  After my 3 month time period is over with my current frogs for the potential of the fungus, I'm looking to get more (if I don't have a male and female myself)


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## Gizmothefreaky

Breeding ADFs is soooo hard... I don't know anyone who has gotten more than one or two taddies to make it to adulthood. I guess I could try it though.. XD


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## Chesh

There's a lady on the Yahoo board I visit who's doing REALLY great with them!!! She's been doing constant water changes with a turkey baster!!! They're doing really well, I think the oldest ones are around 5 weeks old now - but the frogs won't stop, and she can't bear to ignore the eggs, so she also has some 3 weekers and 1 weekers, lol!

LOOOOK!!!










D'AAAAAAAWWWWW!!!

I'm totally going to give it a try if my two ever get caught in the act again


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## Gizmothefreaky

Awwww!! Oh my goodness! It's just too bad I don't have the time to do such constant water changes... XD


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## Chesh

YES! With a TURKEY BASTER! She's dedicated, for sure. . . one day I hope to get the chance


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## LittleWatty

I just watched Skinny and Tubby go at it after feeding them  If it weren't for the fact that I know they don't have teeth, I would have been really worried when I saw Tubby bite Skinny's side. I know this is common between males, so maybe I do have two


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## Olympia

My female did this to my male too. (That's why they are named Atilla and The Hun!). I'll stick to the "bad eyesight" explanation, though I do think Atilla is planning tank domination. ;-)


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## LittleWatty

Considering her feeding habits, I don't doubt that XD Next thing you know, all of her tank mates will be lined up in a military formation, with her at the lead!


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## Chesh

I've seen mine chomp on each-other from time to time, too - and the female DOES seem to be more aggressive as far as chomping and SHAKING the little bitty male around. But luckily. . . in MY tank it doesn't happen often, and I REFUSE to believe it's intentional!!! Hopefully it won't happen as much when I move them into a larger tank. Atilla is just. . . a nutcase


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## katydidmischief

This thread is fantastic! Thanks for all the info.


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## Chesh

Yay! Feel free to babble freely about frogs any time - glad we could help, and we're _always_ happy to talk about the froggy friends!


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## Olympia

This thread exists to converse about frogs.


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## Chesh

. . . aaaaaaaand other such nonsense


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol hey, as long as everyone is enjoying the conversation, I don't care what we talk about. XD


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## katydidmischief

I'm slowly working my way through all the posts in this thread so please forgive me if I ask a question that's already been asked/been asked a bunch of times before.

I bought an ADF, Toothless, for my 5.5 gallon tank. He's been doing well--I'm cupping him for feedings right now and he's getting aquatic frog pellets--but I'd like to start feeding him frozen bloodworms. I have no experience with live or frozen foods, since I've always given pellets, flakes, or freeze dried. Is it best to thaw the block in the fridge overnight or out on a counter?

I've got two...three places for Toothless to hide, plus several plants. Should I add more of either hideaways or plants?


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## Olympia

I grab some tank water and throw the bloodworms in that. You'll probably only need a teeny tiny amount for one frog. :-D


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## LittleWatty

For the frozen foods, I would not suggest leaving them sit out for long, or putting them in the fridge! They thaw out really quick. When I feed my frogs frozen bloodworms, I actually use tweezers to pull the little "ice cube" apart, then put the appropriate size meal in a cup of the tank's water. Once its separated (shouldn't be long, less than a minute usually), I use a turkey baster to drop it to the bottom of the tank quickly. Since you've been cupping Toothless for his/her/its feedings, you could probably just drop in small amounts at a time, adding a tiny bit more every time some is eaten, until he's eaten maybe the amount of the size of a pea.


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## Chesh

The others have covered the defrosting - but I will add that you shouldn't put the 'water' in the tank that came with the frozen cubes. . . all it does is add yuck to the tank that the frog can't eat, and there is a slight possibility that there could be some bacteria in the water from the cube that could cause harm. I actually have a special knife that I use for frozen foods, and cut the cube in the amount that I need. I put the rest of it back into the freezer, and let the rest defrost in an old teastrainer on a papertowel on the countertop. It only takes a minute, and the water is removed from the food 

I'd say your little one is fine with hiding spots, but would really appreciate more planting. You might want to consider getting rid of one of the hidey holes, and adding a decent clump of plants there instead. I wouldn't be surprised if you find he prefers the plants to the pots (they're really cute, though!) My frogs have a house, and they still use it, but they spend most of their time in the plants


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## katydidmischief

Thank you! I really appreciate the quick answers--it really helped clear up my newbie confusion on the frozen--and I will definitely be adding some plants for him. I'll see how I can shift things a little to add some of the ones I've got in storage.


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## Olympia

Jeez you guys really expanded on my two sentence answer. :shock:


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## Chesh

*giggle* You KNOW I'm chatty!


----------



## katydidmischief

Attached is their updated tank with more plants, though Toothless really loves hanging out in that coral.

But I was wondering how everyone feels about ADFs and Melafix? Michael's fins have gotten tears in them and ragged at the edges, and have gotten worse so after checking everything for rough edges, I tried clean water and then adding a little salt (1/4 tsp for 5.5gal) but it didn't help. I'd like to treat the tank with Michael so should I take the ADFs out or will it not affect them?


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## LittleWatty

Well, first off, the salt amount might not have been enough. 1/4 tsp in 5.5 gallons is a very small amount. Most people do 1/2tsp per gallon. Of course, most people don't have ADFs in their tank too. I would recommend sticking with the salt treatment, as Melafix can be dangerous to bettas if not careful. If you've got an extra tank lying around, I'd put your betta in there, and dose it to 1/2tsp per gallon. Keep it up for no more than 10 days. If its not better by then, you might consider other treatments. But, not until then. There's also the fact that Michael might be a tail biter.


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## Olympia

I'd wait for Giz's opinion on the medicine with the frog.
Amphibians are very different from fish.


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## Gizmothefreaky

And I am here!!!

I have used melafix with frogs, but only because everyone in the tank was getting sick (mine are in a community tank), so I wouldn't treat Toothless (lol I have an Axolotl named Toothless... She's a girl... XD ) unless he is showing signs of illness as well. Just be careful with medicating what isn't sick.  
Best thing for finrot is clean warm water I have found. Only when it is super advanced should you use medication.


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## Chesh

Thanks for the advice, Gizzy! I've thus far been lucky enough not to have treat a tank with a frog inside - hoping I never will have to!

Katydid, I hope your betta heals up soon, I agree with Giz, in most cases clean water, time, and mother nature can heal. . . and it really is best to _ONLY_ treat the fish/frog/creature who is having the issue when at all possible. Even the most gentle of remedies cause stress on the wet pets - even if it's something safe for them to be exposed to, if they don't NEED to be, avoid it at all costs.

I hope your little betta feels better soon  Sick fishies are never any fun. . .


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## katydidmischief

Thank you again, everyone. I really was wavering on whether or not to just give Michael a little more time and another water change. I'll definitely hold off on the melafix, do a change in the morning, and monitor. Thank you!


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## blue moon

so i just got 2 ADF and a ghost shrimp and a snail and i don't know if its the first day or something but there not eating what is the best way for them 2 it i just put a bowl with there food in it and there not going in ??? im feeding them aquatic frog and tadpole food anything else i can give them or another way i can feed them ??


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## Gizmothefreaky

Calm down and breathe... First thing is tank conditions, are you keeping them correctly? Second, it's only the first day, they may already have eaten at the store, so just relax. You obviously haven't quarantined anyone, so we can forget that... If no one eats in the next week I would be worried... So just read through this thread, and make sure that you are doing everything correctly.


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## Chesh

Hello and welcome to Frogville!

Gizmo is right, it often will take a day or two for the froggies to settle in and feel comfortable enough in their new surroundings to eat. . .I'm not sure exactly what you meant by 'aquatic frog and tadpole food.' but oftentimes frogs won't take the pellets that are made/sold for them - some do and some don't - it might depend on what they're used to. None of mine ever have :-? Do you know what they were eating at the pet shop? Most frogs can't resist a bit of defrosted bloodworm, so if they continue to refuse food for the next day or two, perhaps you can give that a try? Stay away from the freeze-dried stuff, you want the ones that are wet-frozen, almost every fish shop has a freezer somewhere and sells them. They aren't that expensive, and a packet will last you for ages.

Otherwise, what size tank are they in, and is it cycled? Do you have a water testing kit? If so, can you give us your parameters?

I don't know anything about shrimp, so I can't help you there, but like Giz said - there is so much info to be found if you go through this thread, so if you haven't yet, go through and read through the millions of pages here - you'll learn tons about how to properly care for your new little friends!


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## LittleWatty

I have some experience with the shrimp, as I've purchased over 50 in the past few months. If your frogs are in with a betta, be warned that the bettas tend to eat the food for the frogs before they do - especially if you go the frozen bloodworm route. I have that problem and have to cup my fish before I feed my frogs. Secondly, about the shrimp, they can get aggressive when it comes to food. Usually its only with each other, but if they get gutsy enough, they'll steal food from your frogs and even your betta. I usually don't worry too much about shrimp, since they're almost a dime a dozen. If you have real driftwood in the tank, they'll usually get any food they need by picking at it. There's always a little bit of algae growth on wood, and that's why I like it for shrimp/oto/pleco/corie tanks. I will warn you that you'll probably lose most of them within the first week, just because they're so poorly taken care of. Your fish also might eat them. Sonas and Féileacán both ate their shrimp within a couple days of putting them in there. It happens.


----------



## cjz96

Hi, I have a random question that has probably already been answered in here before: 
How would you properly inroduce an ADF to a betta? I have QT my new ADF for about two months just to be safe. My betta has been a loner for his whole life while with me. I'm just scared they'll start ripping eachother apart. 
Thanks!


----------



## FuulieQ

Carefully. Make sure you have a back-up tank in case the two do not get along. 

You might try putting the frog within sight but out of reach of the betta first to check for an aggressive response. When I introduced my frogs to my betta, I moved the fish into the frog tank rather than the reverse to avoid territorial behavior and watched VERY carefully, ready to remove him if he seriously went after anybody. After the first half hour I checked on them frequently and looked everyone over for bite marks or injuries each time.

It ended up not working out, not because of aggression, but because the betta was too nervous and scared of the frogs and wasn't doing well. So they now both happily have their own tanks.


----------



## Olympia

I have Sakura (cherry) shrimp and they are the most peaceful things on the planet. Those ghosts can be a little touchy, though.


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## djembekah

picked up an ADF buddy yesterday. Feeding definitely seems tricky, so i'm going to go through this thread again. 

he's with my pk male betta, Zeddie, in a five gallon tank. yes its small, and not recommended for everyone, but I'm keeping up with water changes, feeding, and watching the betta. Zeddie seemed curious about him at first, but doesn't really care anymore. I will watch, and relocate the frog if necessary.
besides, Chesh said it was okay 


so would getting a very small dish/bowl thing to put in the tank be a good idea for feeding Frogger? when i waved a bloodworm in front of him, he went for it, but i'm not sure he ate it all.

Also- (yeah i just read the first, very informative post) how many bloodworms? the pet store lady said "like one" but idk...will he eat more if i give him two or three?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! Yay!! And I have no idea, to be honest I don't count out worms... ^^; I have always just thawed out a bunch and used a turkey baster to feed everyone with. I do my rounds to all the tanks at the same time. What the frog doesn't eat, the betta most certainly will. 

Good luck!!


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## djembekah

thanks Gizmo! i am sort of in love with the little fella. Is the dish a good idea?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

The dish is a good idea if you cup the betta at feeding time, because leaving the food out in the open for the betta to make a piggy of himself. XD


----------



## Olympia

This photo makes me giggle. My "neighbor" Atilla:









For anyone who doesn't get it, my neighbor Totoro:










Similar? I think so.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Omg I love that movie! And that is an amazing picture! Lol!


----------



## Olympia

I actually never got around to watching that one, but I probably will soon. I thought of it as soon as I saw her doing that though.
I think she is avatar worthy with this one! 
She's gone from "ohhh my god Atilla what are you gonna wreak havoc on today?" to "Atilla you are the cutest most amusing thing in this tank!"

She still gets into wars with the farlowella during feeding time. When she sits on him he pokes her with his nose.


----------



## Chesh

D'aaaaaaaaaw! Beka!!! Congrats on your froggy!!! I'm in love with him, too - only I WISH I had a PICTURE of him *bats lashes*

LYMPIE!!! YOU just made me spit my TEA all over the computer. OMG! *shakes head* That poor little FATTY FROGGY!!! I love her, too. Atilla is DEFINITELY something different  

hahaha, *poke* Poor 'Tilly


----------



## djembekah

i will work on pictures! still lacking a good camera though....i will try at least!


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## SpookyTooth

Olympia those frog photos are BRILLIANT! :lol:

I've had the temptation to divide the 14gal into two sections and have one for froggies but I've had to resist, seeing Kaze scoot around so hyper-like when he sees me just makes me want to give him the entire tank space more.

I wonder how he'd take to tank mates... he flares at his snails sometimes but only when he doesn't realize they are sat above his face and they startle him... silly feesh.


----------



## djembekah

ugh Frogger is not moving much today. I'm concerned about his food intake. :/ i guess he needs to be target fed, so i'll try bloodworms soon.

and i'm floating him in the community tank. I dont hvae a heater for Zeddie yet, because the tank was like 75 degrees for weeks, but its suddenly cooling down.


----------



## SpookyTooth

I hope everything is okay, djembekah!

I went to my favourite aquatics store today and they had African dwarf frogs in stock! AHHH!!! I've seen loads of photos but haven't yet had the opportunity to see them face to face -- they are SO much more adorable than I imagined! Loads of them were asleep in the back corner piled on top of each other! I literally yelled in the store "THEY HAVE THE FROGS IN STOCK!" when I saw them, there was a man just ahead of my mother and me with a pram and I felt a little embarassed but wow! They were just too cute so obviously I had to squee.

I was so tempted to buy a pair but I'm in the middle of arranging things for Kaze's 54 litre so I decided I'd hold off for now, I'm not sure if they'll have the frogs in stock again for a while (they sell very quickly apparently) but on the bright side: I got an _AMAZING_ piece of driftwood for £5! This thing is almost as big as Kaze's new tank and will need to be cut down slightly to fit so I'm utterly blown away. I love that store, they also gave me a smaller piece of wood (not for aquariums but they had it anyway for some reason) for free, I'll be using it for my stick insects once the eggs hatch.


----------



## athenr3134

whoa this is overload he needs room to swim. hence why i can see why he hides in the coral you should take out the two jugs let me breath more. you can fill the back of the tank with plants but leave some open space so he can enjoy it more.


----------



## Chesh

djembekah said:


> ugh Frogger is not moving much today. I'm concerned about his food intake. :/ i guess he needs to be target fed, so i'll try bloodworms soon.
> 
> and i'm floating him in the community tank. I dont hvae a heater for Zeddie yet, because the tank was like 75 degrees for weeks, but its suddenly cooling down.


Bekah. . .I'm confused!!! You're floating the _FROG_ in the community tank? Or the Betta?! If you are floating the frog, don't! That's going to stress him out, and he CERTAINTY won't eat that way - plus, they jump, and they have really sensitive skin, so a lot of catching and moving and touching can be really bad for them! The frog should be okay if the temps stay in the lower 70's, they're cold blooded, so the cooler temperatures will cause them to be less active (and possibly eat less) I want to say that 72ish is the low end of their range, of course 75-80 is better. But they do NOT do well to quickly shifting temperatures at all. If it is at all possible, get the poor little dude a heater, like right now! Winter is coming!

And I don't remember what you were feeding him, but mine don't take the pellets at all, ever. So getting the wet-frozen bloodworm is a fantastic idea. I've never seen a frog refuse bloodworm! I had good luck feeding my frog by hand when he lived in community. It took a day or two for her to get used to it, but she did great. I've also had good luck using an oral syringe, and a lot of people use turkey basters to target feed, because it lets them get the food to the frog without putting their hands in the water.

Good luck! Please let me know how he's doing - you really ARE having a tough tank week *hugs*


----------



## Chesh

Oooooh! SPOOKS!!! I'm glad you finally got a chance to see the babies in person - they _ARE_ cute, aren't they!?? D'aaaaaaaaaw!!! *luffs froggies* I can just imagine you shouting in the middle of a shop, heehee. I know the feeling, though. 

Good job waiting until you're really ready. It is. Patience is ALWAYS the way to go with all things aquatic (and probably just all things in general, lol) BUT MAN!!! And you have an extra tank and EVERYTHING! And Kaze is about to move. . . GAH! I'd have had a hard time passing this one up - I'm proud of you!

AND congrats on the driftwood score! That's a great price! Never have figured out why it's so darn expensive - it's WOOD! lol. . .PLUS a freebie - fantastic! I can't wait until those little sticks of yours hatch! See? IMPATIENT!!!


----------



## SpookyTooth

Chesherca said:


> Oooooh! SPOOKS!!! I'm glad you finally got a chance to see the babies in person - they _ARE_ cute, aren't they!?? D'aaaaaaaaaw!!! *luffs froggies* I can just imagine you shouting in the middle of a shop, heehee. I know the feeling, though.
> 
> Good job waiting until you're really ready. It is. Patience is ALWAYS the way to go with all things aquatic (and probably just all things in general, lol) BUT MAN!!! And you have an extra tank and EVERYTHING! And Kaze is about to move. . . GAH! I'd have had a hard time passing this one up - I'm proud of you!
> 
> AND congrats on the driftwood score! That's a great price! Never have figured out why it's so darn expensive - it's WOOD! lol. . .PLUS a freebie - fantastic! I can't wait until those little sticks of yours hatch! See? IMPATIENT!!!


Bwahahah. I'm really glad I chose to wait, I'm exhausted and couldn't handle another tank right now. Hopefully once Kaze is nicely settled and the aquarium has established I can look at what supplies I have left over and maybe see about reusing Echo's old 27 litre -- I can imagine a frog pair in there and it'd fit beautifully on my desk.

I find it a wee bit coincidental that I bought Echo after discovering how difficult the frogs may be to get and then after he's gone (swim in peace :|) the frogs suddenly show up. Still, patience is most certainly a virtue.

I uploaded some photos of the driftwood to the filter journal -- I'm going to end up destroying (er... carefully pulling plants off) Kaze's current bit of driftwood and nabbing the plants on it so I can attach them to the new piece. I'm also in love with this piece of bark!

_(Not quite frog related but I will say that one egg of Terra's is very pale. I've never seen an egg this colour before, not in any of the photos I've seen so I'm keeping a close eye on it. Hope it hatches, would be interesting to see if it's a unique baby.)_


----------



## djembekah

the frog is floating Chesh- Zeddie's tank got down to like 68 degrees  Would it be better just to put Frogger back in there? i feel so bad about how cold it is. I cant get a heater in there until next payday.

If it's normal behavior though, I can put him back in there. Just worried me ;-;


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

That will be very cold for him, but it is much safer than being in a cup. Although if you have a net breeder you can put in the community, you could make a lid with plastic wrap and then it would be safe.


----------



## djembekah

So would it be better to put him into the net, or back into the super cold tank with Zeddie? I can do either one.

It looks like he's starting to shed too. argh ;-; i feel bad that i moved him! i was just so worried about him because of the temperature


----------



## djembekah

going to get him into the net for now I guess. argh i am so frog-stupid. My poor guy.


i also need to get him some frozen shrimp.


----------



## Chesh

And it's okay  We all learned somewhere, right?

A net is not the *best* choice for hm, either - But if it's a breeder's net, it's WAY better than a cup, for sure! 

If he's in the community tank, you DON'T want to dump him BACK into the other (cold) tank and shock his system. CAN he stay in the community tank for a little while until you get your heater? Is there anyone in that tank that would be mean to him? Also, what temperature is the temp dipping down to in the smaller tank? If it's within his range, just slowly acclimate him back to the colder water.

The biggest thing is NOT to shock him with rapid temp changes and let him be FREEEEE! He just won't do well in a cup - but I know you were trying to do the best thing to keep him safe *hugs* It'll be okay. Whichever tank he's going into, get him into it and let him get used to things, keep it calm, lights off, etc - so he can de-stress.

He very well may be shedding due to damage taken with all of the handling. It could just be a normal shed, too tho. He'll need to wiggle and squirm and thrash around to get his skin off, and he'll probably eat it when he does, it's full of protein and other goodies, so he'll be set with a full belly - even if he refuses dinner tonight


----------



## djembekah

okay ;0;
i'm putting him into the breeder net in the community. I think he'll be alright in there until i get a heater (which is going to be next thursday- 10 gallon hood for my girls can wait). the temps in the 5 are dipping down to like, 64. :S and i feel bad for Zeddie too. poor thing. agh. so he'll be in the 29 in the net for a bit- that's okay?


----------



## Chesh

Yeah, I guess. . . he'll probably be pretty stressed out in there, but if there is no other option for him, it'll have to do . . . Is there a reason why you can't just release him into the community tank? I've kept an ADF in a 29g community tank before with no issues - as long as none of your fish are aggressive - which I assume they aren't being in a community tank! You'd just have to make sure to target feed him with a turkey baster or by hand. It becomes a pita after a while (for me it did, anyway), but for a week or so it shouldn't be a problem. Poor Zeddie! Maybe HE can go into the breeder if the frog goes into the tank?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

That is a great idea Chesh! Yes, deffinately look into getting the frog in the big tank and the betta in the breeder net. Lol


----------



## Olympia

I think the point is that the she wants to keep the frog in heated water and not freezing.


----------



## Chesh

Oh, did I misunderstand? 

The big tank is her 29g community, right? I *thought* _THAT_ tank was heated, and the frog is currently in there in a breeder net inside of the heated 29g. . .? the BETTA tank is the one without heat (the frog and the betta were tankmates, I think) so the betta is still in there shivering (poor guy!) with temps at around 65F

Could be wrong! I get mixed up sometimes when we start playing musical fish (and frogs)









Either way, I hope everything comes out okay!


----------



## Olympia

Yup! Giz said to put him in the betta tank and the betta in the net, that's why.
Her community has some pretty big angel fish, I think that's her worry.


----------



## djembekah

yeah the frog is in the net. I could release him maybe later, and hop around? i just am paranoid about the angels- Gaebora's back in there now, and Kaepora is chasing him a bunch...
i think i should just leave them all alone for awhile lol ;-;


edit: i do not even know why i said hop around...


----------



## Chesh

heehee, sorry! I try!

. . . I hope all is well with ALL of them! What a tough week for you *hugs* I suppose. . . if you DO end up letting him go in the community, at least your angels are busy with each-other, and hopefully won't cause any harm. It'll be okay  Just be really careful not to shock anyone with quick temp changes. . . and I'll keep praying for warmer weather for the rest of the week (though I have REALLY been enjoying the cooler autumn temps, lol)


----------



## djembekah

oh i LOVE the cooler temps for me- its these darn tank rearrangements! new five gallon, new ten gallon (which also needs a heater >.<). Reason i put my angel back in the 29 a day or two early is because of these fallen temps >.< argh. this stuff always happens a week and a half before payday!!!


----------



## Chesh

djembekah said:


> argh. this stuff always happens a week and a half before payday!!!


_SO _true. . . and _VERY_ unfair, I think!


----------



## djembekah

i need to start selling my scarves, and get a sewing machine to make more doll clothes!! then sell those too, and then have PLENTY of money for heaters xD


----------



## Chesh

Good plan! Don't forget your beadwork, too!


----------



## djembekah

yes yes yes


----------



## katydidmischief

djembekah said:


> this stuff always happens a week and a half before payday!!!


Always! I swear it's the cosmos messing with us! :-/


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I know you got it all figured out, but I did say put the frog in the big tank and the betta in the net... ._.;


----------



## djembekah

OK i see now x3 I misunderstood...heh >.< my bad. You and Chesh are so helpful, Gizmo 

Well anyways, frog got out of the breeder net (even though i made a top with plastic canvas...guess there were gaps). So i can put the betta in the net I guess. Poor guy.

I honestly think he'd get along with the angels, but I don't know about the angels getting along with him.

edit: i made my lid with plastic canvas because i didn't have regular old plastic wrap. just dumb sticky crap that i was worried wouldn't be safe for the fish


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I have a pair of angels in my 55 with my frog and they never bother her. They spend most of their time at the surface of the water anyway. Lol


----------



## djembekah

Okay  He's just moving around the bottom, i think he likes the sand.

my angels are a whole other story right now. siiigh. at least they're leaving the other fish alone


----------



## djembekah

SPOKE TOO SOON
apparently, the angelfish chased the frog. ffffffff


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Eep!! Did they hurt him? >_<


----------



## Chesh

Oh noes!!! Well. . .? Is he okay? Did he get into hiding?  Sorry! I thought it'd be okay. *sigh*

Oh, and yes - ADF _DO_ prefer sand, for sure - so I bet that aside from the whole being attacked by angelfish thing, he was very happy with that tank. 

Hope he's okay. . .


----------



## djembekah

i think they might have hurt him :/ He isn't moving...i think he's gone. SIGH! i should have just left him in the 5 gallon ;-;

i feel really really really really awful.


----------



## djembekah

i picked him up, and he did not move. siigh...would it be safe to go bury the little guy?  argh. If/when I try another frog, it's not going to be until Zeddie's got a heater, and everyone else is healthy ;-;


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Oh no!!! I'm so sorry! I guess angel fish are just not created equal... :/ it would be safe to burry him if you put him in a plastic Baggie, just to be safe.


----------



## djembekah

okay  sigh. Poor little guy. At least the littlest sister isn't too upset about it. She's a trooper, especially since he was ~her~ frog.

RIP Frogger


----------



## SpookyTooth

Oh I'm so sorry :-( Please don't feel awful, we all start somewhere and this is a learning experience. I'm sure any future froggies you get will do wonderfully; you tried and you cared enough to try harder and at the end of the day that is fantastic.


----------



## Chesh

Man! I'm so sorry!!! I feel responsible for suggesting that you put him in the bigger tank. . . it may have been any number of things, though - he wasn't eating before, which is a symptom of many illnesses *HUGS* You really did do the best you could for him. You learned a lot about ADF from Frogger, and I'm sure that if/when you decide to try this species again you'll have enough knowledge and experience to help them to live a long and happy life. . .


----------



## djembekah

thanks so much everyone  *hugs* you guys are so helpful. I think I will try frogs again someday. They are so sweet and cute. I'll miss the little guy, but he was a learning experience 

love you Chesh! don't feel bad <3


----------



## Chesh




----------



## djembekah

you always find the cutest smilies xD


----------



## LittleWatty

Its been a little while since I've posted anything here, so I figured I'd come back with an update!  Tubby is still, well, tubby XD Skinny on the other hand has really colored up nicely. He's not that sickly pale brown he was before, and now has color a lot like Tubby. He hasn't really fattened up, but he's definitely got more weight on him now compared to when I got him. I've decided to target feed him whenever I can, because I think Tubby is stealing all the food XD

I also think Skinny might love the camera... as soon as I got it out this morning, he crawled out of the log (they just love that thing) and immediately made for the front of the tank. Because the series of photos is just too hilarious, I have to put all of them up XD The second to last picture is to show that he's actually got meat on his bones now! And the last is my fat little boy.


----------



## Chesh

AWWWWW!!! Watty, they're BOTH looking very healthy and happy - and that java moss is a thing of beauty! I know they love it in that tank, you've done well! I always love photo updates


----------



## Olympia

Oh wow his face! <3


----------



## Chesh

*SQUEE for FROGGY CUTENESS!!!!*

HEY! I think it's time we get photo updates from everyone! C'mon ladies - show off those froggy friends!!! I have to get some tanks of the new setup, hopefully I get a chance over the weekend!


----------



## Olympia

I've posted tons of photos!
But, now Hunny is hand tamed to the max, I wish I had a video camera!


----------



## Chesh

Heehee, I have a few shots of my babies (in their old tank) sitting on my hand under the water. . . though. . . my hand looks a mess - I always do their tank last, so I get extra time to play with them - they're so awesome! But by then I'm all pruny and grooooossssss! I'll have to see if I ever got any decent pics of that and post 'em. It really IS so much fun to hand-feed the little guys  I just love froggies!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I just grabbed some shots, but they don't want to upload... Lmao!! Darn photobucket.


----------



## sarahspins

This is one of my new ADF's 

I am really enjoying them.. I had never gotten any in the past because I'd always heard that they were a lot of work (I guess because of the "variety" of food required?) but they are a ton of fun to watch, especially when they eat.










They like to hang out in the sunken ship.. so cute!


----------



## Chesh

AWWW!!! Such a cutie, and great shots, Sarah! My little ones love to hang out in their 'house' lol, love it! You're right - I think a lot of people feel the same way, but in truth. . . they're wonderful little critters, and very easy to keep, as long as you remember that they aren't fish! Thanks for posting!!!


----------



## Chesh

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I just grabbed some shots, but they don't want to upload... Lmao!! Darn photobucket.


YAY!!! I'll *try* to be patient! I haven't gotten a chance to even try for any new photos, I'm hoping over the weekend I'll have some time  Post them whenever the computer feels like cooperating, I can't wait to see your babies!


----------



## katydidmischief

My two little ones.


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## Chesh

heehee!!! They're totally convinced that they're hiding! So funny! They're so CUTE!!! They remind me of mine - is this a male and a female?

Sara and Katy - I'd love to see your entire tank if you guys have pics laying around! They look neat!

Any luck with uploading Gizzy?

Keep the frog parade going!!!


----------



## katydidmischief

LOL, oh, I have photos laying around! I love taking pictures of my tank--I'm hoping to eventually get some good ones of everybody. This is my divided 10gal. (Milton's side looks fuller than it is. There's really a lot of space in there though the large plant keeps falling over so it'll be replaced tomorrow by something less... leafy.)

And to keep with the froggie photos, here, have one of Toothless' cute little foot.


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## Chesh

Cute tank! I love seeing how different everyone's setups are







Where are you guys finding those adorable little URNS??! I love them! I guess I really don't have anywhere that I could put one, anyway, but they're cute! Can't wait for a new pic after the new addition!


----------



## sarahspins

Chesherca said:


> Where are you guys finding those adorable little URNS??!


I don't have any but I know I've seen them at Petco


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Finally got photobucket to load!! Sorry about the quality... All I have is my iPhone right now, and it's hard lol! 

Here is the whole tank. 55gallon with three angel fish, one blue dwarf guarami, one male betta, and a bunch of mollies, platies, and guppies, five Cory cats, four kuhli loaches, and Bonnie, my ADF. :3 










And here are some of Bonnie
(Bonnie, an angel, the guarami, the betta, and a Molly)











































Also, yes, I am aware that my stocking choices are less than ideal, but everyone seems fine, and I plan to have the betta in his own tank by the time the angels are big enough to do any harm, also I an searching for a fourth angel as well.


----------



## katydidmischief

Chesherca said:


> Where are you guys finding those adorable little URNS??!


Petco clearance! They're like 4$ and some change and there's two color choices.


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## Gizmothefreaky

They are cute but just not my style. Lol


----------



## katydidmischief

Moar photos!  This is Stormfly, who spent ten minutes last night swimming around as she hunted for bloodworms. (I try to tong-feed them, but neither would come out of hiding so I had to leave their worms in the bowl until both discovered them. Thankfully, Milton will not eat anything off the bottom.)


----------



## Chesh

Sorry I've been MIA! It's been insane around here this week. . . I got a few (bad) pics, but my computer won't let me take them off the memory card until I clear up some space, so one more thing to do, lol!

Stormfly is so cute!!! And Gizzy, I love your tank! It's really cool to see ADF in community doing so well! Your Gourami and Angel(s?) are STUNNING, and of course I'll always be a HUUUUGE fan of the humble Molly. Good luck getting the final angel to round out the group - can't wait to see how this tank develops, I know it's newly set up


----------



## wombatgirl

Hey - got a few questions for you.

I've got an ADF in with one of my Bettas. He's my first ADF - and I wanted to know if some of his behaviors are normal.

I'll be tong-feeding him bloodworms, and he will only eat the ones in the tongs. If I drop them, I can drop them DIRECTLY on his head, and he'll ignore it.. The ghost shrimp will carry them away later. But he'll eat the ones off my tongs just fine. 

When he swims around, well, he's not graceful. He tends to run into things with his head. A lot. Like the wall. Or the gravel. Or anything else he's aiming at. I think he just swims until he bumps into the wall. 

Are these typical behaviors? He seems like a happy little guy. He's happily swimming around, bonking into things, and isn't scared of the tongs at all. I've had to work to get him to eat, but he is now, and he looks healthy.


----------



## Chesh

lol, yeah. . . frogs are dumb, bless their little hearts. He's fine.


----------



## Olympia

He's just being a frog!


----------



## LittleWatty

I know your pain with the target feeding XD Both Tubby and Skinny (still haven't renamed them... they might stick) will just stare up at the surface, "watching" the bloodworms fall, but won't move a muscle. They'll just keep staring. Unless, of course, my turkey baster is in the water. They'll lunge at it over and over, even if there's no worms XD


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah, lmao! ADFs are by no means the brightest crayon in the box... But damned if they aren't adorable. X3


----------



## wombatgirl

Oh good. I was afraid Legolas was a little extra "special". Thanks everyone. I'll try to get a pic of him later.


----------



## wombatgirl

...and he just did something extra special this morning. I'd dropped him a few pellets this morning because I didn't have time to get the bloodworms out. He has occasionally found those.

This morning? He lost them to the *snail*. I walked back in the room after taking my shower, and there he was, fluttering around as Mr. Snail sat firmly on top of all the pellets I dropped.


----------



## LittleWatty

rofl! XD Yeah... They're a little slow. Mine will have worms land on their mouth, head, and even their EYES, and they won't budge. They'll just keep staring at my turkey baster XD But I have to agree - they're about the cutest thing living in my apartment right now! Though, my tiny otos are a close second.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums...EC9356-15584-000010AED2ECC3AE_zpsb9f4495e.mp4

Frog video!! Bonnie eating and her tank mates as well. X3


----------



## Chesh

Gizzy! I want to SEE it, but it won't let me access the file? Any chance you can put it up on YouTube? I seem to have trouble with Photobucket and my MP4 files, too. Maybe the others will have better luck. *pouts*


----------



## Olympia

I can't see it either. :-(


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Erm.... I can try. Lol! Let me see if I can remember my normal YouTube channel... All I have right now is the weird stuff channel...


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Grr!! YouTube isn't letting me log on... >_<


----------



## Chesh

You can put it on your weird things channel! I PROMISE I won't loooook!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hme576Ra5mA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Okay... You asked for it, the only other video on that channel is me removing tonsil stones from my throat... >_> don't watch if you have a weak stomach. XD

Edit: it looks like YouTube is being a brat too... Let me know if you guys can see the video.


----------



## Chesh

Nope. . . *cries*


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPda3OYuQow

THIS ONE HAD BETTER WORK!! *rageface* if not then I give up.


----------



## Chesh

IT WORKED! YAY!!! Bonnie is so CUTE!!! I just think these little things are hilarious when they eat. Ready, aim, wait. . . FIRE! *BOP* Drat! Missed. . . begin again. *giggle*

Those angels are really pretty- does one have an orange face? I've never seen that before, maybe I was seeing things. . .

Do you think, in your experience, that the female ADF are more aggressive in general than the males? MINE is, Olympia's is. . . just curious, since you're the one who's had the most, and longest, out of all of us!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I know!! I just love watching them eat. XD 

Thanks!! Yes! That angel does have an orange face, it is what is called a koi angel, let me get pictures of the three angels in still... These were all taken the day I got the particular fish.  

























And lastly, yes, I have noticed the females do tend to be more aggressive, especially when it comes to food. Lol the little fatties love their food, that's for sure.


----------



## SpookyTooth

Oh she's such a tubster! What an awesome video XD For such tubby looking things they can _move_! Your angels are also gorgeous, I've always liked angelfish but never really enough to consider researching a set up for them.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol I know! Omg, she is fast... 

And thanks! They are all about the size of fifty cent pieces, and I need one more, but I am super picky about how they look. LOL


----------



## Chesh

Wow... Koi, huh? Gorgeous! I really love angels, too. It's hard to limit yourself to just a few types of fish! Since I have my rams, I'm planning to NOT keep any other cichlids, so that I can become more familliar with other species. MY eventual plan is for Gourami. . .

Isn't it funny how everything you read always says how difficult it is to tell male from female? But. . . provided you've SEEN both - it's really VERY obvious!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Mine are still too little to sex... Lol I just want four on the off chance I manage to get two of each. Lol

I have a guarami as well, and he/she is really fun to watch. XD


----------



## Chesh

YES! I saw him/her in there - gorgeous fish! How BIG is s/he?


----------



## djembekah

awee i love your angels!!! What size tank do you keep them in? I really want to upgrade my 29 to at least a 40 breeder but i have space limitations u.u

also your frog is just darling


ALSO your hair is super cute. i wish i could pull off something like that xD


----------



## Chesh

Hey! Some of you might remember when I posted about a lady on an ADF board who was raising taddies? She posted up a new picture of one of them at 8 weeks old. Thought I'd share it with you guys. Not the greatest picture, but you get the idea - and it's so AMAZING! I REALLY hope I get the chance to do this someday!










AAAAAWWWWWWWWWW!!!


----------



## djembekah

awe how precious!!


----------



## SpookyTooth

AHH! That is too adorable! I remember raising frogs from tadpoles when I was a kid and knew _nothing_ about water chemistry -- still was fun! Gosh how epic.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

My hair is a RAINBOOOOOOOW!! XD thanks!! 

The tank I have them in is a 55 gallon corner tank.

The guarami is... I dunno, he would fit in the palm of my hand, but I have never measured him...

Omg!!! The baby is adorable!!!


----------



## Chesh

OMG, GIZZY!!! I watched that vid to the END and I must have blinked and missed you!!! HAHA! I LOVE your rainbow brite hair - so super cute! You're WAY cuter than your frog!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

My hair!!


----------



## katydidmischief

That is the most amazing hair EVER. Just... pure awesome! :-D


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Thanks!!!


----------



## Chesh

Love the 'do! I bet your kiddo does, too!!! How fun!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Oh yeah! Lol we both love it, she wanted to do the same thing.


----------



## Chesh

She's. . . 3, right? Didja let her??! C'mon. . . Halloween is RIGHT around the corner! PULEEEEEEZE!!! >.<

I dyed my hair blue for otakon, and the kids loved it, so I grabbed some yarn and tied a bunch of long colorful strands around a hair elastic. Tied it into their hair, and WALLAH! Pretty rainbow hair - that comes right out


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lmao!! No way! Maybe spray in wash out for Halloween, but what I use is permanent. XD


----------



## sarahspins

Gizmothefreaky said:


> Lmao!! No way! Maybe spray in wash out for Halloween, but what I use is permanent. XD


I dye my daughter's hair at the beginning of each summer with semi-permanent dye... It's fun and always gone by the time school starts up again 

This summer was purple...last year was bright pink.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! I think my mom would kill me... Of course it's not like she really has a choice in the matter. Lol!


----------



## Chesh

I'm telling you! Make her a yarn/ribbon ponytail holder or barrette! She'll LOVE it - and it's something that nobody can object to, lol!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol yeah, I can do that!!


----------



## sarahspins

Chesherca said:


> I'm telling you! Make her a yarn/ribbon ponytail holder or barrette! She'll LOVE it - and it's something that nobody can object to, lol!


Yeah.. didn't the original rainbow brite have yarn hair? 

If you knit there's always this too.. http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall04/PATThallowig.html


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I love that!! Too bad I don't understand knitting... XD


----------



## LittleWatty

I managed to get an awesomely cute view of Tubby's belly today when I got back to my apartment. He made me giggle-snort XD And yes, that's little Skinny right next to him. They might eventually get proper names, but the two they've got right now have rather grown on me XD

Also wanted to add, that Skinny has gotten into this habit of crawling/swimming his way up to the front of the tank to stare at me whenever I'm in the kitchen for extended periods of time. I think its adorable.


----------



## sarahspins

So cute! Do you have any idea on the genders of your ADF's? I'm pretty sure I have a male and female and my suspected girl is a little piggy


----------



## TheCrabbyTabby

*raises hand* 

I have a question. Since there are most likely ADFs carrying that fungal disease at major pet store chains, and seeing as reputable breeders are the most likely source of ones without it, where can I find a breeder that has disease free ones?


----------



## Olympia

Seems like EVERYONE has a male and female, somehow! xD

Crabby, I don't think there are any breeders. It's really hard to raise them and as far as I know, few people have ever done it. Jes said Petsmart is pretty safe. I think the rate of it has gone down a lot in the past few years.


----------



## LittleWatty

I'm pretty sure Tubby is male - he's got the funky armpit pimples. Skinny... I just have no idea. I think its too young yet to tell. I think Skinny is a good few months behind Tubby in age (who just exploded in terms of size within the month I've had him). I thought he was female, considering his fat belly XD

I don't know about the fungus. I've even asked some Petco employees that I know have done their research, and they have no idea if their suppliers do anything to prevent the fungus. I'm playing my luck with these two. I've had them for almost 2 months now (I think), so there's maybe a month to go before they're in the green zone. I just know the recommended quarantine for ADFs is 3 months, as that's supposedly how long it takes to run its course, at the longest.


----------



## Chesh

I'm not sure if you'll be able to find a local breeder, and even if you did - how would you be able to ensure that their stock is chytrid-free, anyway. . .  

But don't be _SO_ quick to judge the chain shops. In truth, since there has been so much trouble over Chytrid - not just in frogs kept as pets, but it's wreaking havoc on wild ecosystems all over the world - the breeders and shops seem to be doing a great job in trying to keep the illness from spreading. Though it IS still a problem in petshops, lately I've seen a shift with it showing up less frequently in the larger shops, and more often in the smaller LFS. It's unfortunate, but many LFS keepers are just not as familiar with frogs as they are fish, and it seems that some of these shop owners don't really know anything about Chytrid. If you do end up getting a frog from a LFS, your BEST bet would be to AVOID one that also carries ACF - African Clawed Frogs - as these guys can be carriers for the illness, but it doesn't affect them. They are often blamed for it having become such a worldwide problem.

I can't speak for any other chains, but I have been in touch with the lead veterinarian on a corporate level for the PetSmart chain several times to get information on how they run their operations - and one of our conversations was exclusively regarding their policies and practices regarding ADF. I'm going to copy-paste it on here - you can find the original post on page 10 of this thread. . .



> I'm not sure if I mentioned on here that I've tried to contact PetSmart on the corporate level regarding their practices regarding the chytrid fungus and the frogs that they sell. I thought I had reached a dead-end, but I got a call from their corporate veterinarian - Dr. Nick St.Urn.
> 
> He seems to be a very knowledgeable person, very aware of the chytrid fungus, and well versed in the condition, signs, and treatment of it, and claims to have given many lectures over the last few years on this condition and how to treat it to veterinarians and pet stores to increase awareness of this awful disease.
> 
> He says that ALL FROGS SOLD FROM PetSmart come from a single breeder. They are tested for chytrid and Salmonella at least two times BEFORE EVER REACHING THE STORE! If they test positive, the entire 'batch' is immediately treated, then tested again.
> 
> Dr. Nick says that this has been the practice since the problem first came to his attention several years ago, and at that time the frogs sold by PetSmart were, in fact, infected - according to their tests. Since then, they have taken great care to ensure that their livestock is tested multiple times, and treated if necessary before it ever reaches the store level!
> 
> First the breeder tests them, and he is being audited by PetSmart staff on a continuous basis to ensure the health of their livestock. Additionally, they test ALL of the ADFs at their testing and distribution center AGAIN before sending them off to local shops for sale. He pulled the reports for the most recent 'batch' and claims that there were NO infected frogs, and that the breeder has been doing a fantastic job keeping his stock fungus-free.
> 
> Their frogs are treated with Benzalkonium chloride - not something that I can easily lay my hands on should the need arise, I suspect. . . but he did offer me several other methods of treatment, These are very simple, actually, and I wanted to share them here, in the hopes that they can help others.


I have since been in touch with him again regarding what they do on a store-level to ensure that their ADF were disease-free, as they do carry other frogs (both aquatic and non) that could be carriers or affected with the disease. The other frogs that can be carriers are tested just as the ADF are, and the nets are dipped in a solution that will disinfect it between uses - not just of Chytrid, but other yuggies that may be present. I don't think this matters as much, since their water runs through a central system, but knowing that they're all tested makes me feel better  I have 2 PetSmart ADFs, and they're chytrid-free 

If you do have the misfortune of having an affected frog, there are now some options available to treat if you catch it soon enough, so it doesn't have to be a death-sentence anymore! Sorry for the book, but I can't tell you how HAPPY I am that this issue is being addressed - not just in shops, but on a global level. It still is a major problem in nature, with species being brought to extinction - I don't know HOW they'll manage to 'fix' this mess, but the GOOD news is that, as far as shops are concerned, things are looking up.


----------



## Chesh

LOVE that shot, Watty!!! Tubby, aww!!! With the female ADF's being larger as a general rule. . . it'll be funny when your Skinny DOES turn out to be a girl, and gets tubbier than tubby! My male ADF had pimples at a very young age, so. . . *shrug* Time WILL tell!!!

As long as you got your frogs together, then if one was infected, the other would be. Chytrid CAN NOT HARM fish, though they can be carriers for the illness for a period of about one month AFTER the affected frog is removed from the tank. QT is only an issue when you bring a new frog to live with an existing frog, as if the newbie is infected, the original frog will get it too. It's always best to get 2 (or more) at once if you want them, that way you don't have to deal with the QT - 3 months is FOREVER!!! It can take up to 3 months for Chytrid to become apparent in a frog - but once infected, the frog will die. There is no course - unless the frog is treated, it can not survive.  See page 10 for some of the information I dug up on treatment options, and also a bit about how the disease works, and why it's so deadly. Poor froggies 

Even at PetSmart, the employees on a store-level have no idea about Chytrid! (at least none of them here did, and I asked several - including the manager who gave me the corporate number) I may have to see if I can get in touch with the 'big-wig' at PetCo to see what they've done (if anything) to prevent this nasty illness in their shop. With all the publicity that Chytrid has gotten over the last few years, and all the destruction it's caused in natural eco-systems - I can't imagine that they haven't put some rules in place to keep their stock clean. . . at least, I'd hope so!


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## SurprisinglyFemale

I have a video of my ADF's feeding. Could you tell me if I have 2 boys and a girl or three boys? They're pretty cute so it's not terribly boring 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYimi55XOxQ


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## Chesh

AWWW! Cute video! I never get bored of AD frogs - thanks for sharing! 

I'm *guessing* you may be right that it's 2f and 1m, but it's REALLY hard for me to tell from the video, and I don't want to tell you wrong! Pretty much, if they're at least 9 months old and have armpit pimples, you have boys  I saw two of yours that had white looking patches behind their arms, but couldn't make out if they were bumps or coloration, sorry!

How long have you had these guys, or do you have any idea of their age? It's hard to tell gender until they reach sexual maturity at around 9 months of age (that said, my tiny male frog was mature when I got him) 

A few guidelines. . . male frogs will develop a small white or pinkish ‘pimple,’ called a post-axillary subdermal gland, on their side, just behind their armpit. They also tend to be thinner and all over smaller than females, as a general rule, and their tiny 'tails' are shorter. Males can most easily be identified because they ‘sing’ to find a mate, even when they’re all alone in the tank. It sounds like a faint buzzing or humming, but it is audible, and it will be repeated (*grumbles* Even though I have a mating pair, I have only heard it via recordings,_ MY_ male refuses to sing - at least not when I can hear it! Others here have had frogs that sing, though. _SO_ jealous!). I've read that on males you can see a sort of line extending from their vent up and over each hip – like a pair of bikini underwear - I have yet to actually check this for myself, I'll have to see what I can see tomorrow. . . Female Dwarfs grow to be larger on the whole, and tend to become pear-shaped when their eggs have developed inside of them. Their 'tails' are longer, and some sources say that you can see a small bump between their legs, where the eggs emerge (I can't)

Hope this helps?


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## SurprisinglyFemale

Chesherca said:


> AWWW! Cute video! I never get bored of AD frogs - thanks for sharing!
> 
> I'm *guessing* you may be right that it's 2f and 1m, but it's REALLY hard for me to tell from the video, and I don't want to tell you wrong! Pretty much, if they're at least 9 months old and have armpit pimples, you have boys  I saw two of yours that had white looking patches behind their arms, but couldn't make out if they were bumps or coloration, sorry!
> 
> How long have you had these guys, or do you have any idea of their age? It's hard to tell gender until they reach sexual maturity at around 9 months of age (that said, my tiny male frog was mature when I got him)
> 
> A few guidelines. . . male frogs will develop a small white or pinkish ‘pimple,’ called a post-axillary subdermal gland, on their side, just behind their armpit. They also tend to be thinner and all over smaller than females, as a general rule, and their tiny 'tails' are shorter. Males can most easily be identified because they ‘sing’ to find a mate, even when they’re all alone in the tank. It sounds like a faint buzzing or humming, but it is audible, and it will be repeated (*grumbles* Even though I have a mating pair, I have only heard it via recordings,_ MY_ male refuses to sing - at least not when I can hear it! Others here have had frogs that sing, though. _SO_ jealous!). I've read that on males you can see a sort of line extending from their vent up and over each hip – like a pair of bikini underwear - I have yet to actually check this for myself, I'll have to see what I can see tomorrow. . . Female Dwarfs grow to be larger on the whole, and tend to become pear-shaped when their eggs have developed inside of them. Their 'tails' are longer, and some sources say that you can see a small bump between their legs, where the eggs emerge (I can't)
> 
> Hope this helps?


I know I have at least two male, they've had their armpit pimples for quite a while but my fatter frog "Lady" seems to have a peachy spot on her armpits, I wasn't sure if that meant she was male or just had some color right there.

 my baby Croaks sings to me every night around 11pm or 12pm if he's comfortable ( not immediately after a water change or anything being moved adound their tank). I used to have Wolowitz who would sing every now and then. I've had them since July 12. Back then, they all looked the same xD it took a month before they started to sing!

I have a video on that same channel where they try to ambush my betta (no fins were bitten or even touched) and the frogs just end up biting eachother xD such bullies! They'll bite just about anything! Such rascals..


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## Chesh

You had me with 'fatter!' It DID look like 2m and 1f to me, too - so I'm thinking you're right on this one. They do have lighter coloration under their arms and on their bellies - of course this varies from frog to frog, but if there isn't a bump, it's not a boy :-D

I'm so jealous of you and your singing frog! Croaks is an adorable name, btw! I don't know WHY my little Frecks won't sing to me, Lord knows I'm up late enough, and they're very happy - mating, even. Someday. . . someday. He'd better, the little brat! I spend too much time lovin' on my frogs for him not to give me the satisfaction! :evil:

They ARE rascals! And they DO bite everything in the tank. I think for the most part it's because they have such a hard time seeing, but are amazing at detecting vibrations in the water, so they pounce. Never realize it's a fish twice their size, or another frog, until they get a mouthful! I've seen my Speckles hunt guppy fry, and . . . it was amazing! :shock: Those poor little gups never stood a chance against her mad hunting skillz. Yet she flounces around on the bottom of the tank for ages searching for her dead wormies, poor girl.


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## katydidmischief

> where can I find a breeder that has disease free ones?


I got my guys from Petsmart and haven't had a problem with disease.


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## wombatgirl

Do ADF's have a problem with stronger lights? I just changed the bulb on my tank because I wanted to help the plants grow, and Legolas seems to be hiding more.


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## SurprisinglyFemale

Chesherca said:


> You had me with 'fatter!' It DID look like 2m and 1f to me, too - so I'm thinking you're right on this one. They do have lighter coloration under their arms and on their bellies - of course this varies from frog to frog, but if there isn't a bump, it's not a boy :-D
> 
> I'm so jealous of you and your singing frog! Croaks is an adorable name, btw! I don't know WHY my little Frecks won't sing to me, Lord knows I'm up late enough, and they're very happy - mating, even. Someday. . . someday. He'd better, the little brat! I spend too much time lovin' on my frogs for him not to give me the satisfaction! :evil:
> 
> They ARE rascals! And they DO bite everything in the tank. I think for the most part it's because they have such a hard time seeing, but are amazing at detecting vibrations in the water, so they pounce. Never realize it's a fish twice their size, or another frog, until they get a mouthful! I've seen my Speckles hunt guppy fry, and . . . it was amazing! :shock: Those poor little gups never stood a chance against her mad hunting skillz. Yet she flounces around on the bottom of the tank for ages searching for her dead wormies, poor girl.


We named him Croaks before he started singing. My boyfriend named him that when I first got them (he thought I was going to kill them all). He named it Croaks so if it did die he could make some stupid fish pun about it. 

Croaks is the horny one of the group xD he tried to grab any frog he could get his hands on(male or female!). Lady is a rude little pig, she bites the other frogs a lot and eats until she doesn't want to move( I have to move her and feed the others again), and Wolowitz is just pretty active. 

I love how they float ontop of the water! I usually try petting them or holding them there, they don't seem to mind


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## LittleWatty

wombatgirl said:


> Do ADF's have a problem with stronger lights? I just changed the bulb on my tank because I wanted to help the plants grow, and Legolas seems to be hiding more.


Well, they are nocturnal creatures, so that could be why they're hiding. The other light might have been just dull enough that they were willing to be out and about during the day, but with the brighter one, the might like getting out of it once and a while. Just speculation though.


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## Chesh

wombatgirl said:


> Do ADF's have a problem with stronger lights? I just changed the bulb on my tank because I wanted to help the plants grow, and Legolas seems to be hiding more.


Great question! ADF's are nocturnal by nature, so yes - they DO prefer things to be more dimly lit, and will be out during daylight hours more often if they are given a nice canopy of floating plants to block the light a bit. Just be sure that he has lots of hiding spots for the daytime, so that he can get out of the light if he wants to, and he'll be fine. Daylight happens all over the world!


Surprising: I LOVE the name Croaks, it's adorable, lol! I like to hand-feed my frogs too, but be cautious about petting. Their skin is very sensitive - even the oils from your fingertips could cause harm. I let my frogs sit on my fingers during water changes, when my hands have been scrubbed clean time and time again (I do the frog tank last out of 5, so I can spend extra time to 'play'). Just be sure that you keep them under the water at all times, and be VERY aware that they can (and will!) jump if they wish to. Mine never have, but . . . don't trust it! I've seen a few frogs (other people's) get themselves in trouble that way. 

Females. . . lol, they really Do seem to be as greedy as they can be, so I'm not in the slightest bit surprised to hear that!



Welcome to our group, both of you! Or if you've been around and I've missed you - nice to meetcha!!!


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## SurprisinglyFemale

Chesherca said:


> Great question! ADF's are nocturnal by nature, so yes - they DO prefer things to be more dimly lit, and will be out during daylight hours more often if they are given a nice canopy of floating plants to block the light a bit. Just be sure that he has lots of hiding spots for the daytime, so that he can get out of the light if he wants to, and he'll be fine. Daylight happens all over the world!
> 
> 
> Surprising: I LOVE the name Croaks, it's adorable, lol! I like to hand-feed my frogs too, but be cautious about petting. Their skin is very sensitive - even the oils from your fingertips could cause harm. I let my frogs sit on my fingers during water changes, when my hands have been scrubbed clean time and time again (I do the frog tank last out of 5, so I can spend extra time to 'play'). Just be sure that you keep them under the water at all times, and be VERY aware that they can (and will!) jump if they wish to. Mine never have, but . . . don't trust it! I've seen a few frogs (other people's) get themselves in trouble that way.
> 
> Females. . . lol, they really Do seem to be as greedy as they can be, so I'm not in the slightest bit surprised to hear that!
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to our group, both of you! Or if you've been around and I've missed you - nice to meetcha!!!


Oh I know better than to take them out of the water or play with dirty hands. I usually just wait until they float and then just let them rest on my finger.
Nice to meet you too! My name is Erika.


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## Chesh




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## SurprisinglyFemale

I think I might have to set up a divider during feeding time... Tyrannith is devouring the shrimp my frogs haven't gotten to yet  he's so fat


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## Chesh

Yeah, keeping frogs in a community can be tricky business! Remember, once your frogs are adults (9 months of age - which they are if you have singing!), you can go down to feeding them every other, or even every 3rd day. It might make things easier. . .


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## SurprisinglyFemale

Chesherca said:


> Yeah, keeping frogs in a community can be tricky business! Remember, once your frogs are adults (9 months of age - which they are if you have singing!), you can go down to feeding them every other, or even every 3rd day. It might make things easier. . .


I've been feeding them every other day. I didn't know if , even though it only happens once every two or three days, the fishy fatness will end up harming my little monster? 

http://imgur.com/c9hjl


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## LittleWatty

I've had issues with my betta eating my frogs food. To solve it, I put him back in his store cup and float him in the tank (usually hidden in my taller plants, so he can't see me feeding the frogs). While he's in his cup, I'll give him his own food, so he learns to like it. Then, I feed the frogs, giving them ample time to eat before releasing the betta (for me, its between 30 min and an hour). It is a bit more work, but saves you a lot of trouble in regards to the health of the betta. Be sure to keep the betta/cup IN the tank, as sometimes they do jump out.


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## SurprisinglyFemale

LittleWatty said:


> I've had issues with my betta eating my frogs food. To solve it, I put him back in his store cup and float him in the tank (usually hidden in my taller plants, so he can't see me feeding the frogs). While he's in his cup, I'll give him his own food, so he learns to like it. Then, I feed the frogs, giving them ample time to eat before releasing the betta (for me, its between 30 min and an hour). It is a bit more work, but saves you a lot of trouble in regards to the health of the betta. Be sure to keep the betta/cup IN the tank, as sometimes they do jump out.


That sounds like a great idea! Thank you! I might put back my frog's food dish to cut down on the time it takes to find the food, too.


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## LittleWatty

I actually use a really flat river rock as a sort of "plate." Makes it easy for them to find food, as its always in the same place, and its easy to get to. So, the dish will probably be a great idea.


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## katydidmischief

I use a dish in my tank too--little dudes have figured out where the food is and they actually show up pretty quickly once I start doling it out. However, it does leave the food open to things like, oh, my boy Milton grabbing a piece of Beefheart that's too large for his face and swimming around with it in his mouth like a trophy.


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## SurprisinglyFemale

katydidmischief said:


> I use a dish in my tank too--little dudes have figured out where the food is and they actually show up pretty quickly once I start doling it out. However, it does leave the food open to things like, oh, my boy Milton grabbing a piece of Beefheart that's too large for his face and swimming around with it in his mouth like a trophy.


That's absolutely adorable! It's amazing, to me, how many brine shrimp a frog can eat compared to a betta!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Random picture time! Because I feel like it.... XD 

All three of my angels:









Bonnie:









And their tank... Backed by my seven betta tanks. X3:










Just because... I dunno. >_> I'm not hyper, nope!


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## katydidmischief

Love your tanks, Gizmo! The big one looks amazing!


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## Chesh

Those angels are gorgeous. . . and of course I'm a huge Bonnie fan, lol. _SEVEN_ betta tanks!? *giggle* Love it!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I need to really get cracking on making the 55 a npt... I just need to buy plants, dirt and silica sand... Lmao!! 

The angels are getting really big! I need to get a fourth before too long, or whatever I get will be picked on. Looking for a solid white, or one with very little black on it.


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## SurprisinglyFemale

Here's two pics of my little baby being awfully grumpy this morning


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## Lady Courage

Sorry if this question has been asked but...

In a 3.5 gallon tank, could I keep a betta, an ADF and some cherry shrimp? Or would this be too much?


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## Gizmothefreaky

I wouldn't keep them in that small a container together. It's over stocked for one, and two you would never be able to provide hiding places for the shrimp, they would be eaten in hours. Five gallons is as small as I would go for that combo.


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## Lady Courage

Ah, I wondered about the shrimp being eaten... OK, thanks! Upgrading is not possible because of space constraints, so I really need to choose between an ADF and shrimp, right?


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## Gizmothefreaky

In a 3.5 you really need to choose between frog or betta. I'm sorry.


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## Lady Courage

Ah, ok then. That answers that.  Thank you! I'd still like to get a frog someday, but Dr. Seuss must have his tank. XD thanks again!


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## Gizmothefreaky

You MIGHT be able to get away with it if you were super on top of water changes and did three or four a week... But it still doesn't provide a whole lot of room.


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## Lady Courage

Wow, 3 or 4 changes a week... This would be to keep ammonia down, correct?

Don't think I want to mess with that much care, but thank you so much for giving me my options! I'm a gal who likes to have all the info before she makes a decision. Lol So thank you!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah it's for the ammonia. Lol and no problem, I like to help!


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## Chesh

*Frogs + Riccia = <3*




























_FINALLY_ got some pics of my frogs to put up. . . of course, it's just their bellies, but frog tums are entirely too CUUUUUUUUTE!!!!

First two shots are of Freckles (top is my fave, he's so CUTE!)! The goose at the bottom is Speckles, what a character! I forgot to turn off my flash when I caught her in the right spot, so I can't blame her for getting a little bit grumpy with me. One shot. . . it was only one shot! *hangs head* Sorry, Specks. . . anyway, the frogs have been huge fans of EVERY floating plant that has ever been in their tank - WaterSprite, Duckweed, Frogbit, Hornwort - there have been several over time. . . but above all else - Frogs + Riccia = LOVE! 

Silly little babies. . .


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## Gizmothefreaky

How adorable!!


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## SpookyTooth

Squeee! If I'm ever to set up a frog tank it'll have buttloads of riccia, love that plant and love those photos! Thank you for sharing :-D


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## wombatgirl

How pudgy is too pudgy? 

I know that a little pudgy is better for frogs that really skinny. And when I first got my frog, he was underweight, so I was working with him getting him fed, and I may have done *too* good of a job. He's really pudgy now. Should I be working on getting him to lose weight now, or just try to stay about here? I don't have a pic yet, he's camera shy.


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## Gizmothefreaky

It would help to see a picture. Lol


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## Chesh

*Help me!!!!*

Everything was FINE last night at feeding. I watched them both eat, and they were totally great! I even looked at their feet - cuz' they have CUTE FEET!!!

Today was busy, so I haven't had a moment, but when I went in this evening - something is REALLY wrong with Speckles! I've had her since February, and she's been the image of perfection since then. TONIGHT she suddenly has a foot swathed in mold/fungus - it seems to be red, possibly swollen. She's still swimming and moving, but the leg is dragging behind her - like it's dead. She also has a patch of this fungus on her shoulder and her chest.

WHAT IS THIS? How did it become so bad so fast? And WHAT DO I DO NOW?!!!

She's in this tank:










It's a fully cycled, well planted 10g. Her tankmates are a male ADF (Freckles), whom I've had since June and is showing no signs or symptoms (yet) of whatever this is, and a handful of Malaysian Trumpet Snails. They've been in this tank for almost 2 monthsish now, but the plants/wood/rocks came from other tanks. I've seen NO mold/fungus on the driftwood, and haven't made ANY changes in all of this time. Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0, Phosphates are 0, Nitrate is 5 - all very stable. Ph is 7.2, Kh 3gtts, Gh 7gtts... 

Is the underlying cause of this redleg? Does it move THIS fast?! What can I treat a frog with? Should I move her to QT or treat the tank?!

You can see the awful little flipper in this shot, plus her chest and back:










The patch on her back:










And a gruesome foot shot (sorry) The green you see is riccia - not a part of the problem. . .










PLEASE! Someone tell me what to do!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh dear!! That looks like she got hurt, Bonnie got that fuzz when one of the fish bit her toe off, I would treat with aq salt and/or melafix. Poor dear!


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## Chesh

Thank you, Gizzy! That is exactly what I've done. Last night, I put poor Specks into QT with salt mela and pimafix. OF COURSE these things have to happen in the evening on Sunday after all the shops are closed - if that wasn't enough, we're being hit with a hurricane today. . . I'm HOPING I can get to the store for some Maracyn this evening, but I don't know if that'll be possible if the weather gets worse (it's supposed to), and since I do in-home daycare, there is no way for me to go this morning. So for NOW, I have to stick with what's in stock... I decided to do a spot-treatment on the fungus with M.Green, which I have on-hand. HALF of what I've read says the frogs would be okay with this, the OTHER half says they absolutley won't (same goes for salt). So instead of doing a dip or adding it to the QT tank, I pulled her out of the water and used an eyedropper to put one drop directly on the wound. People have done this treatment with really sensitive (to this med) fish like loaches, tetra, and cories and had them come through fine, so *crosses fingers*

This morning, she's looking a bit better - the fungus on her back and chest is gone, but beneath the yuck is open sores. Her foot is still swathed in white, but it isn't as PUFFY as it was last night. . . she's still dragging it and not using it at all. She DID eat last night after being moved, and she is able to reach the surface to breath. She's in a medium sized Critter Keeper right now Depending on what she looks like this evening, and if I'm able to get out to the shop, I'll do another spot-treatment on her foot this evening. Hopefully the salt, mela and pimafix will aid in healing of her sores quickly, and keep this fungus at bay while her wounds heal. I also treated the 10g, JUST in case. I don't want Freckles to get sick, too! 

Injury seems likely, but they're in there with no fish, and I don't see this kind of damage happening from. . . anything! If she scraped against an ornament, how would it be in so many spots? I can see the back and chest from maybe getting squeezed between rocks, but then the foot? *shakes head* I don't get it! She was fine, then not - and I check them out every day, so. . . this happened within a 24-hour time frame. It's weird!


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## SpookyTooth

That aquarium is so beautiful... wow. I really hope Speckles will be okay -- I wish I could say more but I've messed my arms up and am not allowed to type much :roll:

Sending healing thoughts her way!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Something in the tank might have shifted on top of her, they love to dig. Lol I'm sure she will be fine under your care.


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## Chesh

Thanks guys, sad to say she didn't make it *cries* I'm really sad right now. . . poor Specks! She seemed to be doing so much better today!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh no!! Im so sorry...


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## LittleWatty

Nooo!  I'm so sorry Chesherca!


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## SpookyTooth

Oh no! I'm so so sorry!! You did everything you could and I'm sure she knew that!


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## ChoclateBetta

The one inch per gallon rule is fake.


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## Hershey

Sorry for your loss. They're too cute too pass this quickly.


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## ChoclateBetta

Sorry too.


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## Gizmothefreaky

What does one inch per gallon have anything to do with the current conversation?


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## ChoclateBetta

Under tankmates it says 1 inch of adult fish per gallon which is false.


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## ChoclateBetta

And P.S. ACF are illegal in most states.


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## Gizmothefreaky

You know that is a general guideline. And this is a thread about African DWARF frogs, nod African CLAWED frogs. So that doesn't even matter... The only reason that ACF are mentioned is because they are carriers of chytrid fungus. The mass breeders that produce ADF, also produce ACF, so they come in contact at the breeders more often than not. It doesn't matter which states they are legal in or not, they get shipped all over the country, so the frog you see in your pet store could have come from all the way across the US, where ACF are legal, and therefore bred. 

=_=


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## ChoclateBetta

You did not explain that and how come you did not know the one inch per gallon rule was on your care sheet?


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## Chesh

Thank you for your kind words, guys. . . I'm really upset by this and watching Freckles very closely in the hopes of catching any similar symptoms earlier than I did with Speckles - still running Mela, Pima, and about a half-dose of salt in that tank, he seems perfectly fine. I've also ordered Madroxy and Maracyn 1 & 2, which are frog-safe meds (antibiotic and anitfungal), so that if I ever see anything like this again, I'll be prepared. I wonder if everything would have gone differently with her if this hadn't happened on a Sunday evening before the hurricane and I was able to treat her with the proper meds from the start. . . nothing to be done for it now, but I'll be ready in the future.

I made a lot of mistakes with Speckles in the beginning. . .perhaps this all has stemmed from the fact that she was one of those poor creatures that was forced into a fish-in cycle when I started, and had the filter accident way back in February/March. . . I've learned so much about fish-keeping and frog-keeping since that time, Frecks hasn't had to endure any of these things, coming home to a fully established 10-gallon tank. At least I know that since those early days, Speckles has had a very happy and healthy life - until those last 24 hours - in a frog-only habitat perfectly suited to her needs. . . I got to see her grow and thrive - and even mate and scatter eggs! Her life here was good, if short. . . 

When I get the kindergarten tank established, I plan to add a frog (or maybe two!) to their tank for at least a three-month time period - the new addition(s) can go through QT there, and then come 'home' to me and Freckles in the 10 gallon tank - if everything continues to go well with him. If he succumbs to the same illness, I'll have to tear-down and figure out what is the root cause. . . time will tell. I feel really odd even considering getting a new frog at this point, and I kind of don't want to - that was really hard to watch. But the Kindy plans were already laid, and I wonder if Frecks will be happy alone, having always had a buddy around. . . again, we shall see. Thanks again for all of the love - y'all are so wonderful! *hugs*



Chocolate Betta- sorry if I'm off-base here, but I'm reading your posts and it sounds as if they have a bit of a rude feel to them? I hope I'm not wrong, because that isn't how we play on this thread - we're all friendly here, and would like to keep it that way. If you have a question or concern about how to care for an African DWARF Frog, please politely ask your question, and I guarantee that you will get many helpful replies. Gizzy complied that care-sheet quite some time ago, and in the first post it plainly states;



> *Use *at least 3 gallons water per frog* & nothing smaller


From there, she continues on to say that one gallon per inch of frog should be added for each frog thereafter - and I'd say this is pretty sound advice. It is also worth noting that Gizmo is UNABLE to make changes or additions to the original thread at this time. Most of us who have kept these guys for a while prefer to put them into larger tanks, if possible - and when people find this thread and ask for advice, I have never seen anyone recommend anything under 3 gallons, with 5 being far preferable.

In MY case, I had only TWO frogs in a 10 gallon, well planted, fully cycled tank. . . upgraded from a 5 gallon a few months ago, because I felt that they would appreciate more room to stretch out. They both were happy and healthy to the best of my knowledge until 48 hours or so ago, when one of them developed an odd fungal infection. You can look back on the thread for pictures of the problem - and of their tank, which is an ideal habitat if you're planning on getting one of these adorable creatures. . .

IF you are looking for information on African CLAWED frogs, I've kept them, too. They need a MUCH larger space, as they can get up to 6 inches. You *might* be able to keep one in a 10g tank, but I feel that this is really too small for a single specimen at full growth. ACF are very dirty animals, and it would be difficult to keep the tank clean in such a small tank. ACF are voracious eaters, and can not be kept with any other fish, because they will find a way to eat them. . . Clawed frogs are carriers for the fungus commonly known as Chytrid, which is currently destroying even unto extension, wild frogs of all sorts worldwide. ACF are unaffected by this virus, but commonly infect ADF that are kept in the same shop as them. Many people also mistake juvenile CLAWED frogs for African Dwarfs, which is why they are mentioned in this thread. ACF and ADF are both legal to keep in my state, and many others. ADF have been recently banned in some areas of Canada.


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## ChoclateBetta

Sorry was not really trying to be snarky I was more curous.


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## Gizmothefreaky

I know the information in the care sheet, but as Chesh just stated, it was a long time ago, and I didn't realize that was what you were talking about. 

I know you don't try to be rude, but often your posts come across as 'I know more than you and you should do as I say', from what I've seen on this forum as a whole. If you had read the entire thread there are several posts where instate my personal preference for frog keeping is:

1 frog / 3 gallons
2 frogs / 5 gallons
3-4 frogs / 10 gallons

And that is assuming that you have no other stock in the tank. ADF commonly get about 2.5 inches long for females, so the 1 inch per gallon rule applies perfectly for them.


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## ChoclateBetta

Would 2 ADFs work with a Betta in a 10 gallon? Sorry never trying to come off as a know it all.


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## Chesh

ChoclateBetta said:


> Sorry was not really trying to be snarky I was more curous.


Glad to hear it! It can be difficult through the medium of pure text to understand the intended emotion behind a post.







Are you looking into getting ADF? They're really very sweet and wonderful wetpets. I love mine. . .


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## ChoclateBetta

I am wondering but horror stories of Bettas and ADFs are kind of stareing me,


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## Chesh

Yeah... a LOT of people keep them together with no problems, but it really seems to depend on the personality of the fish - some seem to care more than others about frogs in their tank. If you do decide to try, I'd keep a very close eye on things for the first month or two, and have a back-up tank ready to move either the fish or the frog into permanently, if any problems arise. Feeding can also be troublesome in a tank with fish and frogs. ADF don't see very well, and tend to take a while to find and eat their food, while betta eat quickly, so you may run into problems with over-feeding your betta and under-feeding your frog. There are ways around this - you just have to be wary of the possibility of a problem. My betta and my frog(s) have always been in different tanks, but Speckles WAS in a community tank with other types of fish at one point, and for me it was easier to move her into her own tank. Gizmo and many others are able to rock a frog/fish tank with ease, though!


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## ChoclateBetta

I guess no then Carter can be really agressive.


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## Chesh

Just saw the post before, sorry. Yes - the SPACE in a 10gallon is okay for 2 frogs and a betta, but . . . yeah, if your betta is notoriously aggressive, then I wouldn't try it - you could put in a tank divider and have the frogs on one side and the betta on the other. . . or TRY it, and use the divider if/when a problem occurs.


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## ChoclateBetta

I would say Carter does not attack bottom feeders but I dont like dividing. And thank you the help.


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## Gizmothefreaky

I would say try it, and keep an eye on them. Even my mot aggressive bettas have been successful with ADF. There was an incident where Bonnie got a toe bitten off, but she healed fast and is fine now. She even lives with Angel fish currently and I haven't seen any problems. 

What you have to watch mostly is things like feeding and getting stuck, as they breathe air at the surface like bettas, they can drown.


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## ChoclateBetta

But I would have no were to take them if it did not work.


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## Gizmothefreaky

A lot o stores have a return policy I the stock doesn't work out.


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## ChoclateBetta

I would have to order online no stores sell ADFs here.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Hmmm... Well then you could always set up a five gallon for them if it didn't.


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## ChoclateBetta

I might get a five gallon but my parents have a 2 tank rule and I would rather have a new Betta then 2 ADFs.


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## Chesh

Heehee, sounds like this is a closed case, then. Boo that you can't try it! Chain shops like PetSmart carry them, maybe you can call around and ask? But either way, if you can't get another tank, or would prefer another Betta - it's better not to go with an animal that you might not enjoy as much


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## ChoclateBetta

I would love one but Bettas are more woth it. Are petsmart according to them is one of the few petsmarts that dont sell them would one do well in my twenty gallon?


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## Olympia

I don't think one animal is definitely more worth it than another... :s


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## ChoclateBetta

I meant I like them more but still like them I believe all animals are equal.


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## Chesh

In the 20 gallon? The same situation applies in that if you were to have a problem, you'd have to find somewhere else to put them, who lives in the 20g currently? Feeding still might be an issue, but again, Gizmo and Olympia have managed feeding in a larger community tank with no problems. I had to hand-feed when mine was in community, which isn't a huge deal, but got old after a while


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## registereduser

whoa, huge thread! subscribing


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## ChoclateBetta

Its in my sig except one oto did and I plan on getting rid of the last one.


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## Olympia

My community tank is full of sissies. :lol:


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## ChoclateBetta

So my species are compatible?


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## LadyVictorian

Very picky ADF

He will no longer eat food from my fingers or a tweezer and he will not eat food on the bottom of his tank. He will only eat food floating and if it's at the surface he won't eat either. Should I just start feeding him only live food because the way it's shaping out he won't eat unless he is forced to hunt it down.


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## Chesh

Hmmmm... that's a new one! I'm assuming he was eating well before? How long have you had him, and what has he been eating until now? Water parameters all okay?


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## ChoclateBetta

Arent they slow swimmers?


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## LadyVictorian

He ate well before and I can tell he still wants to eat because he moves towards my finger when he sees the food but then backs up and runs away when he notices I'm holding the food. I have to throw the food and make it float and then throw it in the water again until he notices it in the collum of water, normally mid to bottom mid. Once he sees it free floating he darts over to nab it then goes back to his temple to hide. It took about 10 minutes of this to feed three shrimp. I have had him over a month now and the water is all good, I did a 100% water change not long ago. 

It's odd, he use to have no issue eating from my fingers but now he acts like my fingers are going to eat him. Same with the tweezers but I think that is because they poked the inside of his mouth and now he is afraid to get close to them anymore. He won't eat food at the surface because I don't think he can see it that well and he only notices food jerking around/free floating in the mid the bottom mid range within the tank. I think if it's on the ground he can't find it either. Do you think he just has unusually poor eyesight or something?

As for what he eats, bloodworms, blackworms, brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, and beefheart. Seems to prefer the beefheart and worms but seldom eats all the shrimp. I normally end up throwing the shrimp to my betta.


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## ChoclateBetta

Did anything change in the tank?


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## LadyVictorian

Nope, not even a new decoration. Nothing has changed aside from same old obvious tank cleaning so if you count the water then it gets changed twice a week....but that's it. Same old same old.


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## ChoclateBetta

Sounds like eyesite.


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## LadyVictorian

It's odd though, he didn't have bad eyesight before. What could have caused that? I know he had been sick, very sick and recovered, he's still in QT so doesn't have anything else around him other than himself, a cave, and a plant. Could his illness have caused his eyesight to become poor? He seemed fine after recovery even, he would eat his food from the floor of the tank. Could it be he is having issues shedding and the skin on the eyes if clouded? Though when I look his eyes are very clear.


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## ChoclateBetta

I am saying that off from his reaction if he only saw a blur he would be scared.


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## LadyVictorian

I wonder how I am going to have to feed him then if he can't see that well....and what am I going to do when I get more ADF's eventually to live with him? This is a conundrum and I want Bilbo to be well off, after our struggle together against his illness he has turned into my favorite aquatic pet (don't tell Aquarius). He's an admirable brave little frog who puts up a fight...and he has given me a runaround the room <.<


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## LittleWatty

I'm not so sure its eyesight, but don't quote me on it. I'm by no means an expert! ADFs have naturally very very poor eyesight (mine often can't see their food at all). They don't rely on their eyesight so much as their sense of smell. It could just be that he's a little skittish after being sick. I can't get one of my frogs to eat off my finger anymore, but the other one does so very eagerly. If you don't have one already, I'd get a turkey baster. I often use mine to suck up food from the bottom of the tank and move it to get the attention of my frogs, or to target feed (as one is way younger/skinnier than the other, and needs all the help he can get).


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## LadyVictorian

I have an eyedropper and a small syringe. Could those work too? They haven't been used for anything other than cleaning the tank.


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## ChoclateBetta

Depending on what you want to feed him.


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## LittleWatty

Yeah, it does depend on the size of what you're feeding him. My bloodworms tend to get stuck in the baster a little bit, but a good push will get them out (just gotta be careful not to blow them all over the tank). If you're feeding the frogs frozen brine shrimp (or live, I guess?) it should be ok with an eye dropper, as they're fairly small. Not so sure on the other foods though. Turkey basters are pretty cheap, I think I got mine for $2 at Target


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## LadyVictorian

The beefheart I have to cut up myself and the mysis shrimp are longer than brine but not sure if they are thicker. Maybe just a tad bigger than them. Then black and bloodworms are a bit larger as well and fairly...plump I guess you could say.


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## Chesh

Hey, Lady. . . from everything you've said, I don't think this has anything to do with his eyesight. While it is true that these frogs have very poor eyesight, it's never stopped any of them from (eventually) finding food. And if you've been hand-feeding him OR using a syringe/baster/eyedropper, there is NO doubt that he knows where it is! In my experience, frogs will stumble around and snatch at the substrate while in search of food, but they smell it in the water and they DO find it. . . The variety of foods that you're feeding him is wonderful, and - aside from beefheart and black-worm - a lot like what I feed my own. . . Brine, Mysis, and Bloodworm are fine, but anything much bigger than that does need to be chopped into tiny little bite sizes for them to handle very well - but it sounds like you've got that under control, too. . .

Is it possible you've been OVER feeding him? You've only had him for a month, and it took me a bit of time to figure out that these guys really don't NEED too much food. I don't know how old your little man is, but an adult ADF only really needs to be fed every other or even every third day. I know that when I feed my frogs by hand, I tend to give them a bit more than I usually would, and if you've found leftovers on the substrate, it seems like *maybe* he's getting more than he can eat? If it were me, I'd try fasting him for a day or two, let his system clear out, and see what happens when he's a bit hungrier. . .

Refusal to eat *can* be a symptom for many illnesses, but it sounds like he's behaving normally otherwise. . . keep an eye out, though. If you notice any other unusual behavior, start looking into the possibility of illness.

The only other thing that I can think of is temperature. . . and water parameters, in general. If the temps dip too low in their tank, they are unable to digest food properly, and it can cause many issues - these are tropical frogs, does he have a heater in his tank? 
You said the water is fine, and that you recently did a 100% water change - is this an uncycled tank? Huge water changes *can* stress a frog out, especially if he's been 'cupped' or removed from his habitat while you did it, perhaps he's feeling a little bit spooked? Do you have a water test kit? Toxin levels in a small tank can rise very quickly, and these frogs are sensitive little critters when it comes to ammonia and cycling issues. . .

I hope you figure out what his problem is! I really don't think that this is a vision problem, there is something else going on here. . . I'd really try skipping a meal or two and see what happens next feeding. . . good luck!


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## Chesh

ChoclateBetta said:


> So my species are compatible?


I think it's okay, as far as a community tank is concerned, but there is really no way around the fact that it's going to be a try it and see situation - you'll really have to have a backup plan just in case things don't work out! :-? I DO recall a thread a while back about an Otto and an ADF going for the same piece of food at the same time, and the otto got suctioned on the INSIDE of the poor frog's mouth. The frog made it after an entire day of struggle - the otto wasn't so lucky. . . but that was a random fluke thing!


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## LadyVictorian

Chesherca said:


> Hey, Lady. . . from everything you've said, I don't think this has anything to do with his eyesight. While it is true that these frogs have very poor eyesight, it's never stopped any of them from (eventually) finding food. And if you've been hand-feeding him OR using a syringe/baster/eyedropper, there is NO doubt that he knows where it is! In my experience, frogs will stumble around and snatch at the substrate while in search of food, but they smell it in the water and they DO find it. . . The variety of foods that you're feeding him is wonderful, and - aside from beefheart and black-worm - a lot like what I feed my own. . . Brine, Mysis, and Bloodworm are fine, but anything much bigger than that does need to be chopped into tiny little bite sizes for them to handle very well - but it sounds like you've got that under control, too. . .
> 
> Is it possible you've been OVER feeding him? You've only had him for a month, and it took me a bit of time to figure out that these guys really don't NEED too much food. I don't know how old your little man is, but an adult ADF only really needs to be fed every other or even every third day. I know that when I feed my frogs by hand, I tend to give them a bit more than I usually would, and if you've found leftovers on the substrate, it seems like *maybe* he's getting more than he can eat? If it were me, I'd try fasting him for a day or two, let his system clear out, and see what happens when he's a bit hungrier. . .
> 
> Refusal to eat *can* be a symptom for many illnesses, but it sounds like he's behaving normally otherwise. . . keep an eye out, though. If you notice any other unusual behavior, start looking into the possibility of illness.
> 
> The only other thing that I can think of is temperature. . . and water parameters, in general. If the temps dip too low in their tank, they are unable to digest food properly, and it can cause many issues - these are tropical frogs, does he have a heater in his tank?
> You said the water is fine, and that you recently did a 100% water change - is this an uncycled tank? Huge water changes *can* stress a frog out, especially if he's been 'cupped' or removed from his habitat while you did it, perhaps he's feeling a little bit spooked? Do you have a water test kit? Toxin levels in a small tank can rise very quickly, and these frogs are sensitive little critters when it comes to ammonia and cycling issues. . .
> 
> I hope you figure out what his problem is! I really don't think that this is a vision problem, there is something else going on here. . . I'd really try skipping a meal or two and see what happens next feeding. . . good luck!


I am starting to think it's over feeding, I tend to try and feed him two meals every day aside from wen which is fasting day for my fish so to make it simple I made it a fasting day for him. Yes he has a heater in his tank set to 80, I try to keep all my tanks the same temp since I pretreat my water I use for changing and heat all the pretreated water to 80 as well to avoid shock to my fish. As for tank he lives in a five gallon alone right now until I can put him back with the betta. He was ill so I had him in a 1 gallon hospital tank to treat him and he recovered fairly quickly and got back to eating a lot. I then went away for a week and had someone come over and feed the fish twice while I was away so the first day I got back he ate maybe a good six or seven bloodworms alone. Yesterday he also ate a bunch of beef heart so I wonder if he is full. I tried feeding him a lot because the place I got him from the frogs were all WAY underweight and the lady admitted people usually forgot to feed the fish and frogs because they expected someone else to do it so I was trying to put his weight on. He's plumped up since then but I am sure he could still fill out some more before he's a good healthy weight. The tank use to be cycled but I nuked it for fear when eh got sick that it was chystrid fungus so needless to say I am in the middle or recycling the original tank he lived in with the betta. Once it's cycled I am adding him back in because I am not sure if a frog would do well in a tank that is being cycled where as my betta is not bothered by it. Instead I do about 2 50% water changed and 1 100% every week just to keep the 5 gallon frog tank clean and ammonia free. I also try to make sure no uneaten food is left behind. Also it might be a factor but I know the tank he originally lived in with the betta had more cover where as this tank only has two plants and a cave. The tank with the betta had a temple/cave, five plants, and a glass bottle plus it also had a live plant (until I threw it away over the chystrid fungus scare). I have been looking for some ricca to throw into the frog tank for now and move over to the betta tank when he can move back in and eventually they will be moving together after Christmas to a 10 gallon cycled tank and after a good QT Bilbo is getting a girlfriend.


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## Chesh

What was his illness, do you know? Did you end up treating for Chytrid? Just curious. . . and my frogs love all floating plants, but Riccia is by far their favorite!!! He'll love it!

If you're feeding 2x daily, then you're almost definitely overfeeding - and hopefully this is the source of your problem! If you have a MATURE male frog, you'll be able to see a little white or pink 'pimple' under his arm, near his armpit. These shouldn't come up until the frog reaches maturity, and if they're there, you know you can safely back off to feeding every other day. Keep in mind that the male ADF ARE much smaller/thinner to begin with. If you scroll back through this thread, you can see a few comparison shots that were posted a while back. The females tend to be bigger and roly-poly, but the males stay slim and small. 

If you're worried that your frog isn't getting enough, look at his stomach, which is slightly to the left of the center of the frog, and can be seen if you look at their underside - when his left side bulges out just a *tiny* bit, you know he's fat and happy! For SUCH a tiny frog, overfeeding is VERY easy to do! Let us know how it goes after a fast day or two - hopefully everything will be okay!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Bonnie passed away today...

I went to go and feed her and the others and she was not moving, and seemed very bloated. I think she had dropsy, but it's so hard to tell in frogs. I will post pictures, just be warned, they are pictures of a dead frog...




























Rest in peace sweet Bonnie, go and be with Clyde, he has been waiting so patiently for you...


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## LadyVictorian

Chesherca said:


> What was his illness, do you know? Did you end up treating for Chytrid? Just curious. . . and my frogs love all floating plants, but Riccia is by far their favorite!!! He'll love it!
> 
> If you're feeding 2x daily, then you're almost definitely overfeeding - and hopefully this is the source of your problem! If you have a MATURE male frog, you'll be able to see a little white or pink 'pimple' under his arm, near his armpit. These shouldn't come up until the frog reaches maturity, and if they're there, you know you can safely back off to feeding every other day. Keep in mind that the male ADF ARE much smaller/thinner to begin with. If you scroll back through this thread, you can see a few comparison shots that were posted a while back. The females tend to be bigger and roly-poly, but the males stay slim and small.
> 
> If you're worried that your frog isn't getting enough, look at his stomach, which is slightly to the left of the center of the frog, and can be seen if you look at their underside - when his left side bulges out just a *tiny* bit, you know he's fat and happy! For SUCH a tiny frog, overfeeding is VERY easy to do! Let us know how it goes after a fast day or two - hopefully everything will be okay!


Then he is already mature he has the glands under his arms which is how I could tell what gender he was. As for illness I treated for Chystrid fungus but I don't think that is what it was, though it was some form of fungus that went away pretty quick with warm water and fungicure. I think if it had been cystrid he would be dead because it seems the recovery rate from that is slim. I still nuked the tank regardless and qted him from his tank mate to be safe. whatever he had I don't want him catching it again from something. It really sucked having to bleach everything and rinse in boiling water though, even my betta was forced to live in a qt tank for a week so I could finish off nuking and buy new gravel for the tank. 

I also skipped feeding him a few days and when I went back to feed on the third day he ate from tweezers without an issue, even attacked the shrimp when he saw it and swam up for it before I could get it down to him. I think it really had to have been overfeeding and he just didn't feel hungry some days when I tried feeding him. He still wont take food from my fingers though. It scared him and I'm assuming it's because of all the trauma during his treatment what with daily water changes and being in a smaller tank all alone with nothing but a cave and a fake plant. I think when he sees a hand now he is afraid he will be removed from the tank again and swims the other way to avoid it. That is just a wild guess though. Still looking for ricca right now but in the meantime I'm picking up other live plants soon for Nix's 10 gallon tank so I'll get some for his and Aquarius's tank until I can find ricca. Do you have any idea where they would sell it or would that have to be an online thing? 

I have also noticed Bilbo is less stressed not that he is back to the main tank. I think a lot of his odd issues was due to moving from the hospital tank and then to the qt tank so he couldn't get settled and the qt tank was being cleaned so often because it's not cycled. Now that he's back to the main tank he's returned to being active and less hiding and being more out and about moving around and getting comfortable on his old familiar plants and even creeping into his temple where Aquarius was a bit excited to see him again and the two sat together for a while like they were talking about what the H had happened. Bilbo even stopped to check out the new rescue betta I have in the tank next door and was floating at his level and watching him. It's odd how creepy and cute Bilbo can be. I'm still thinking a lot more now recently on upgrading the boys into a new tank so I can get a second ADF for Bilbo to socialize with. I am sure Aquarius is a great friend and all and Aquarius loves Bilbo but I know Bilbo would love another ADF to hug on. I was thinking of getting another male and naming him Frodo but I also thought about getting him a girlfriend as well. Not sure which would be better, don't want babies. At the same time introducing a new frog into the a larger tank with him would scare me because of what it could bring in and ADF's have to be qt for so long. I think someone said 3 months at least to qt a new ADF to avoid chystrid fungus from getting into the group. Some say less if you put them in cooler water. Then after that it's the dynamic, would the other frog be betta aggressive and if so then what would I do with it? I hear some frogs have attacked betta and I'm thankful Bilbo and Aquarius get along so well. In fact they never had a scuff nor flare, not even when I first introduced them. Just a few curious passes and then a sort of instant harmony which I got lucky about since Aquaman is so docile for a betta and Bilbo is just a curious frog who likes to see what his weird fish room mate is always doing.

I also considered setting up an ADF only tank and putting Bilbo in there after three months but from the time I removed Bilbo from the main tank Aquarius had been ripping his tail apart and since putting Bilbo back last night I haven't seen new bite marks on Aquarius's tail so putting Aquarius by himself wasn't the best. He gets nervous when he is alone or else very bored.


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## katydidmischief

So guys, it appears my frogs are breeding... I woke up this morning to find them locked together and a minute ago I realized, Stormfly is dropping eggs. I looked closely at the tank and yup, more eggs on the bottom. I have no idea what I should do with them at this point. I don't have the equipment to deal with breeding on hand, but I can pick it up on the way home from work; I have an extra tank but no heater and it's not very warm in my apartment. :-(


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## Chesh

Gizmo!!!*cries* I'm so sorry to hear. . .she was such a good little froggy!









LadyVictorian - Glad to hear that things are looking up over there!!! You're probably right, it's really stressful for them to be moved - worse when they're being medicated and all of that nastiness. I'm sure with time you'll have him eating from your fingers again - for now, I'm just glad he's eating! I'd continue with an every-other-day feeding, and see if he continues to do well! If it was Chytrid, there are treatment options that have been found more recently, but the ones that seems to be most successful is Lamasil - for people! As long as he recovered, it sounds like you got whatever it was, and you're probably right that it wasn't Chytrid - thank God! Riccia... *I* have never seen in a pet shop, you can try posting a wanted on the forum here (I don't have enough to share right now, or I would), also check Aquabid. Mine came from user Termato, but he hasn't been around so much lately, you could send him a PM, he usually has enough to share... I *think* SanguineFox is starting to get over-run, too. . .

Katydid - WONDERFUL NEWS!!! Congratulations on happy frogs! Chances are that by the time you get back to them later, the eggs will be a non-issue. From everything I've seen and read it's pretty difficult to rear these babies from eggs to taddies to frogs. From the successful accounts I've read, it involves LOTS of small water changes with a turkey baster, and the eggs are very difficult to keep from moulding over. . . It can't hurt to try - if they've done it once, they'll certainly do it again - maybe next time you'll be ready for 'em! Something I am hoping to try one day, too!


----------



## katydidmischief

Thanks, Chesherca! I got home and yup, non-issue, but I just managed to snag an Aquatop heater for 9.99 on Amazon and I'm hoping I can get a tank setup soon so it's ready to go when they do it again. If nothing else, I'd love to try to raise the little buggers.

Gizmo, I'm so sorry! :-( She was a beautiful girl.


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## ChoclateBetta

Wish you the best in breeding and sorry for your loss.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Thanks guys. I'm working on getting the things to make a frog only tank. I have a couple ten gallons just screaming to be set up. Lol!


----------



## Chesh

Oooh! GIZZY! THAT will be fantastic!!! Though, with all the tanks (big and tiny) you have now, where on Earth will you put it?! Always a dilemma. . .


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lmao!! I only have three big tanks, 30, 20, and 55 gallons, the other seven are under three. X3


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## ChoclateBetta

Not to be rude but 20 is not big 30 and 55 are but not trying to offend you and good luck.


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## Gizmothefreaky

It is big compared to a three gallon... An it's a 20 long, so it is physically a large tank. So yeah, it is big.


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## LadyVictorian

I agree, my 20 gallon is massive, hard to find something to put it on aside from a table or counter.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Mhm! Lol they are great, but so hard to find a place for. XD


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## LadyVictorian

I have a 20 gallon I want as a glowfish tank but where to put it in my tiny room? At most I can only fit slim 10 gallons on my wall of shelves. The 20 gallon I could put on the shelf over my bed but if it fell off....20 gallons of water and glass...I might not survive nor would my fish eeek. "Here lies Chelsea, killed by her fish tank in her sleep." "Here lies Flipper, Floppsy, Lupin, Lunar, and Jolly...killed by Chelsea's face." >.<


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## Gizmothefreaky

*gigglesnort* omfg! I shouldn't laugh, but that is too funny... XD 

I have the same fear of tanks over my bed though.


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## SpookyTooth

Awww Gizmo I'm so sorry for your loss! She was a gorgeous frog. The 10 gals sound like a lovely idea -- I hope you're able to find room for them!

It seems that soon I'm going to have a tank free, myself :-( I'm looking to the future and trying to decide what I'm going to do with it (it helps me to prepare what I want to do in the event of something going wrong like it is)... I may get an ADF, depends on what our local aquatics store says, or I may set up a red cherry shrimp colony... The tank is just under 4 gallons... Hum.


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## LittleWatty

All of my larger tanks are full, but if they ever open, I'm definitely going to make them frog tanks. I've just fell in love with the creatures after getting Skinny and Tubby (still no idea what gender Skinny is - not mature yet, I think)


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## Chesh

Tank size is in the eye of the beholder, and depends on who lives inside of it! Compared to my 3, 5, and 10g - my 20 long seems HUGE! I have a 20 long, a 29 tall, and a 55 - I *used* to consider ALL of them big tanks, but somehow they seem so small to me now *giggle* I can't_ WAIT_ for the day when I finally get my 125. . . wonder how long it'll take THAT one to seem 'small' - prolly a month or three. . . *giggle* Of course, now that I have ALL of them running, I have no room for anything else!

Speaking of tanks over beds... did you see the episode of "Tanked" where they made a 'pirate' bed for a very sick little boy? It was AMAZING, but all that I could think of is that I would NEVER let my kid (or myself, for that matter) sleep under a tank like that - especially not considering how many lawsuits those people have against them! Too bad they don't know ANYTHING about fish, they make some neat (if worthless, practically) tanks.

Gizzy, I still think you should have turned that corner tank into an ADF habitat. . . imagine? 50 little frogs. . . *swoons* Can't wait to see what you come up with for the frogs in the 10 or 20 gallon! Any luck finding the new angel?


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## Gizmothefreaky

I did find a new angel! Lol the koi one I had passed away for some reason or another, but I found another pretty quickly, and I am still at three. 


















This one is kind of a chocolate color.  

As for a big frog tank, I might set up the 20long as a frog paradise... Or just a ten. Lol I dunno.


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## Chesh

Awwww, that's a bummer! I really liked the Koi Angel!! THIS one is GORGEOUS, though. I tend to like browinsh things - guess that's why I love the frogs so much! I can't wait until you get your frog tank set up... how many would you stock in a 10g? I've decided that I'll probably end up with 3 in my 10g - *maybe* four, but I think I'll leave it at 3. . . My plan is to get two (1m 1f) for the Kindergarten tank once everything is settled in there, and let them QT at the school (kids'll LOVE that!) until the end of term, when I'll bring them back home and they can join poor Freckles, who is now all alone in there. That is IF Freckles continues to be well. If HE falls prey to whatever weird flesh-eating fungus Specks did, I think I'll be taking a froggy break for a while. . . but as long as the 10g is set up for them. . . I might as well USE it!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I could do four, maybe five in a ten, depending on how many plants, but five would be pushing it even for me. 

The chocolate angel is half the size of Romeo and Juliette, so I am still looking for a fourth and I'll get rid of all of my other fish besides the bottom feeders, to give them more room.


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## Juicebox

are the adfs a hardy species,would they survive half walk into a fish in cycle of a tank? or is it best to put them only into a fully cycled tank?

this disease that they carry in the usa,what wouls happen if i was to just put 2 frogs into a tank right away with a betta and the frogs had the disease.the 2 frogs would die within 3 months but would my betta be affected? and would the disease stay in the water for years and affect any future replacement frogs i might put into the tank?


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## Polishdiva1

I opted for the freeze dried blood warms for the ADF I just got. I know some say freeze dried isn't good, but I have heard a lot of people say there's did just fine with it. My question is how many of these and how often should I feed her?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Do not, I repeat, do NOT feed freeze dried. It will cause bloat and impaction and eventually death. If you are going to ignore the advise in this thread, then how do you expect us to help you? I very clearly state several times in this thread what is appropriate to feed ADF, and not once have I said freeze dried. Either get appropriate food, or take the frog back to the store, or to someone who will care about it. 

Period. =_= 

Hate it when people ask stupid questions that are answered in the very first post on the thread.


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## LittleWatty

Here Gizmo, this will take your mind off of it! Picture spam! XD All of the frog pictures are of Skinny, who is still skinny, but probably not yet mature either. He/She has definitely lived up to what I thought when I bought him/her - the most active frog in the tank! Tubby hides all day, but as soon as the frozen bloodworms come out, he's all over them. Skinny on the other hand seems to be active all day, particularly when I get the camera out. He/she just loves it!

Some of the pictures also have Tintrì in them, then I also have a kind of cute picture of Marvin, my Zebra Nerite (who is not in the tank with the frogs)


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## Gizmothefreaky

D'awww!! The snail's foot is shaped like a heart! So cute! Lol

And your frog is adorable! ^_^


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## Chesh

Watty. . . that is some adorable froggy eye candy!!! And Nerite snails, FTW!! Very cute little babies 




Juicebox said:


> are the adfs a hardy species,would they survive half walk into a fish in cycle of a tank? or is it best to put them only into a fully cycled tank?
> 
> this disease that they carry in the usa,what wouls happen if i was to just put 2 frogs into a tank right away with a betta and the frogs had the disease.the 2 frogs would die within 3 months but would my betta be affected? and would the disease stay in the water for years and affect any future replacement frogs i might put into the tank?



Not that tough, no - it's best to put them into a fully cycled tank. And the Chytrid fungus doesn't affect fish, so your Betta would be fine. There could be spores in the tank for a period of 3 months AFTER the frogs have died (which hopefully they won't!), but without a host (frog), the spores will die off within that time frame.


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## Juicebox

thanks for the reply!! im def gettin 2 of them beauties in a few months


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## xShainax

Got two cute ADF's on Thursday, and yesterday I fed them FBW and Bonnie attacked Clyde after lunging for the last one.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Bonnie and Clyde?


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## xShainax

Named them Bonnie and Clyde. >.> Don't judge me.


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## Gizmothefreaky

My last two frogs were Bonnie and Clyde... ._. In fact Bonnie just passed away last week...


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## xShainax

Awww.  RIP Bonnie


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## Gizmothefreaky

I'm not sure how I feel about this...


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## xShainax

I am thinking of re-naming them killer and stumpy.


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## Chesh

Oh my. . . lol!


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## LittleWatty

I'm not going to ask why the one would be named Stumpy! XD


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## xShainax

LittleWatty said:


> I'm not going to ask why the one would be named Stumpy! XD


He has a stumpy tail. xD


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## SpookyTooth

I'm really sorry if I've asked this before -- and I think I have -- but I'm having a bad day so please bare with me. Could gelled bloodworms be used instead of frozen? The reason I ask is because I still live with my parents and need to consider them and their comfort zones with regards to pets and food, they may not like me having frozen bloodworms in our family freezer. If I can find a substitute for that that won't cause compaction that'd be great.

I'm also wondering if anyone knows of any reliable UK food brands for frog 'pellets' or other foodstuffs as I'm considering using Kaze's old tank as a frog den but I want to make sure I can get appropriate food first.

Thanks..


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## Chesh

I really am not sure! Gizmo has been keeping frogs longer, so she may know about the gelled stuffs. I feed my frogs a variety of wet-frozen foods, but they're ALL frozen. HOWEVER, I DO feed my baby bits of things like Tilapia fillet - which is something that is "people food," so your parents might be okay with things along those lines, rather than. . . um. . . worms and such, lol! You might also want to ask them if they'd be okay with a hard-walled lunchbox in the freezer. . . it might be something that they'd be okay with, as long as the froggy food is kept in it's own box apart from the people food? I also don't know about UK brands, but I have a friend who might. I'll ask him if he can advise here, though I'm sure your awesome petshop will have an idea, too. MY frogs have NEVER touched the pelleted foods, though *shrugs*

I'm SOOOOO excited for you to get a froggy IF you get a froggy!!!


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## SpookyTooth

Thank you, Chesh! I'll ask my parents about it, they let me keep carnivorous plant seeds in the fridge and stick insect eggs in the airing cupboard so I'm sure we can come to some agreement :lol:

I'm trying to make a little feeding dish for whatever goes into the tank (if it's not a frog it'll be red cherry shrimp, got lots of shrimp pellets and they are messy!)... feeling a bit DIY-ish so I'm currently filing down the plastic lid to one of my egg containers (I have loads); they're made of a decent plastic that shouldn't leach anything... I'm probably going to get something different but this'll give me something to fiddle with this evening at least.

I've got a few ideas for the tank... just trying to get the 'oomph' to start on it.

_Edit: I just realized I have my 'Linking Member' status -- yay!_


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## Chesh

SpookyTooth said:


> . . . they let me keep carnivorous plant seeds in the fridge and stick insect eggs in the airing cupboard so I'm sure we can come to some agreement :lol:


ROFL - you really do have the best and most patient parents EVER. . . 

I can't wait! Whatever you come up with will be phenomenal... I just know it will from you!!!
*Hands Spooks some Oomph*


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## LittleWatty

Tubby took a little tumble today  Dov passed, so I was rearranging tanks. I took Tintri, the frogs, and Sonas out of the split gallon, and Leo and his otos out of the 10 gallon. Sonas got put back in one of the 6.6 bookshelf tanks while Tintri and the frogs get the 10 gallon all to themselves, and Leo gets the 15 gallon with his otos. Well... while I was taking everyone out of the 15 gallon. Tubby was the last one out, and decided to be feisty. He jumped right as I was going to put him in the cup for temporary keeping. The tank is on top of my fridge, about 5 feet tall, given another foot for the top of the tank... yeah. He fell a long ways onto kind of dirty linoleum floors. That was a couple of hours ago now, and he seems to be doing alright... I'm moving to a new apartment soon, so the tanks are only half full without the filter running, so I'll be keeping a close eye on everything for the next week until I move out. If anything happens, I'll know about it straight away! Considering I swear he's Attila's long lost brother I'm thinking Tubby will be fine with a couple days of rest.


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## Chesh

*worries* I hope he's okay! Poor little guy. . . glad things seem well so far - please keep us posted!


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## LittleWatty

Well... I think its safe to say that Tubby is going to be perfectly fine XD I got woken up at about 3am last night, and heard what I thought might have been a strange bird out my window. When it started fading in and out, I realized it wasn't coming from my window, it was coming from my tank. Tubby was singing all night! I would have been totally thrilled except for the fact that he didn't do a very good job of singing me back to sleep. Now that I'm awake, though, I am totally thrilled haha


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## Chesh

Hahaha! That is so awesome! Glad he's okay! Nothing like a near-death experience to make us try to create new life


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## LittleWatty

Yeah, I'm thinking he'll be fine haha Both of the frogs seem to be absolutely loving the bigger tank. A friend of mine has been at my place all day while I was at work, and said that one of them has been darting back and forth across the front of the tank. that would be Skinny... haha


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## Chesh

I bet! Who wouldn't love the space to stretch out? So happy all is well!


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## LittleWatty

Me too!  Once I move and get the tanks resetup, I'll definitely post pictures  Skinny is gaining a little bit of weight, but still doesn't appear to be mature. So, either Skinny is a really tiny female, or a not yet mature male.


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## Chesh

Skinny is TOTALLY a boy frog *nods* Girls are so CHUBBY!!!


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## LittleWatty

And yet Tubby is very tubby! haha I'm not sure yet, since there's no sign of Skinny being mature. He/she/it was so very tiny when I got him/her/it that I think Skinny is just a few months behind Tubby in age.


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## Chesh

AWWWW! I WANT TINY FROGS!!!  I can't wait to get the newbies to QT in the Kindergarten tank. . . even MORE? I can't wait to bring them HOME with me!


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## ChoclateBetta

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/African_Dwarf_Frog


----------



## xShainax

Those two frogs are going to be the death of me. :evil: I tore my aquarium apart today since Killer was missing again since yesterday night. Went to feed Stumpy, and Killer was waiting for me.


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## Chesh

xShainax said:


> Went to feed Stumpy, and Killer was waiting for me.


It just sounds so. . . NIGHTMARISH! :shock: Your frogs scare me! ;-)


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## ChoclateBetta

Wow you should figure out why they keep disapeering.


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## LittleWatty

Skinny and Tubby vanished on me the first couple weeks I had them. Scared the life out of me several times, and I ended up tearing apart my tank just like you. I eventually got used to it and learned that they would come out when they learned the feeding schedule. Now I can always find them, no matter where they hide!


----------



## xShainax

I have sand as my substrate, they love digging around in it. So I am thinking Killer is hiding in the sand. >.<


----------



## LittleWatty

I just saw something curious that I wonder if anyone has seen. I just finished doing dishes and walked back into my bedroom to see Tubby up at the surface, sticking his nose and mouth above the water. He was just kind of hanging out there. Not only is my ceiling light on, but the lights in the tank are on as well, so its very bright in there. Given that ADFs are a nocturnal species, I found this very odd. Coupled with the fact that Tubby took a tumble just the other day, I want to make sure this is nothing to be concerned with. As soon as I started to take off the lid to make sure he was ok, he freaked and dove back under a resin log, so his reaction time and speed are up to par.


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## ChoclateBetta

xShainax said:


> I have sand as my substrate, they love digging around in it. So I am thinking Killer is hiding in the sand. >.<


 I love sand too.


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## Chesh

LittleWatty said:


> I just saw something curious that I wonder if anyone has seen. I just finished doing dishes and walked back into my bedroom to see Tubby up at the surface, sticking his nose and mouth above the water. He was just kind of hanging out there. Not only is my ceiling light on, but the lights in the tank are on as well, so its very bright in there. Given that ADFs are a nocturnal species, I found this very odd. Coupled with the fact that Tubby took a tumble just the other day, I want to make sure this is nothing to be concerned with. As soon as I started to take off the lid to make sure he was ok, he freaked and dove back under a resin log, so his reaction time and speed are up to par.


Sounds like normal froggy behavior to me! It's very common for them to hang around in floating plants at the surface, and I've seen mine with his little snout above the water loads of times. Actually. . . when I 'lose' my frog in the tank, I open the lid to look for him, because he's often tangled up in a dense mat of riccia and just loving life.  I also like to hand-feed mine when I see them at the surface - and they know it, lol! So I *might* be encouraging this behavior! 

As a general rule it's normal to see a frog at the surface, they tend to do it more when they're young, and less as they age, but it's still not uncommon. But good to keep an eye out, because if he starts spending ALL of his time at the surface, it could be indicative of illness. :smile:


----------



## LittleWatty

Ok, good to know!  He and Skinny were as ravenous as ever last night, so I'm not too worried about him yet. Just hoping they stay that way, since I'm moving in a few days! I'll have to chase them down with a net again and put them in one of my betta cups as I move locations... I hate doing it, but its safer than leaving them in an almost empty tank


----------



## Chesh

I haven't had to move with fish or frogs yet... doesn't sound like a good time to me, either! Just make sure they stay nice and warm between point a to point b. A rapid temperature drop like they could possibly get in a cup can be really dangerous to their health. I'd move everything else, get it set up-ish, and THEN come back and move tanks. . .

They sound like they're perfectly fine and healthy to me - despite the insane jump, lol! I think that IF he was hurt, you'd have seen definite signs by now - lethargy, lack of appetite, hiding, odd swimming due to a hurt limb, or constant hanging at the surface BECAUSE it caused him pain to swim to the surface. . . to me it sounds like he's juuuuuuuuust fine - but it never hurts to be vigilant, always. The fungus that took Speckles moved so fast. . . it wasn't related to a jump or anything like that, but it just goes to show you how quickly these guys can go down hill when their normally tough immune systems fail. I'm sure all will be well for you, though!

Good luck with the move!


----------



## LittleWatty

I'm just moving down the street, so it won't be far! I was planning on leaving them in my old apartment until I have the proper amount of time to move them. I'm starting my move on Thanksgiving since I don't have to work, but I have to get back to my parents house that day too. On Saturday and Sunday I have to work, but it'll be easier to move everyone then as I'll have a friend around to help. Once I get moved, I'll be setting up all my tanks in a new way. I'll definitely post some pictures when I'm done


----------



## aemaki09

Is chrystid fungus transferred by air? I have an LPS that swears up and down that their ADF's and clawed frogs are transported seperately, yet they sit in open bowls within 4" of each other. This is the only place anywhere near me that sells them as well so I'd like to get a few but I dont want to if there is a high likelihood they will die in a few months. 

And sorry if this is a stupid question!


----------



## Chesh

No... the spores are carried through the water. That the tanks are open-topped doesn't *necessarily* mean anything, but if they use the same nets between the tanks, if someone gets an ACF then an ADF without sanitizing his/her hands in between, or have the tanks set up on the same filtration system (most shops do), then there is a very high probability that the tanks have been contaminated. Not EVERY ACF has Chytrid. . . but they ARE carriers for the illness, and it doesn't affect them. I'd say that if you buy from this shop, you should make sure that they'll refund you for these frogs in 3 month's time should they prove to be ill. . . do you have the chain shop PetSmart near you? They carry very good stock in ADF. . .

ETA: Chytrid IS treatable. It's a PITA to do it, and it requires a decent amount of work, but if you catch it early enough, you have a chance at saving affected frogs. . . just so you know.


----------



## aemaki09

I will check and see if they use the same net.
And there is a petsmart down the road but I've never seen adf's there. I might check again though.

How would I treat the fungus (if I bought one and it got it)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Are ACFs legal in your state? What is that plant in your avatar?


----------



## Chesh

I know some of the PetSmart chains don't carry them, but most of them seem to. . . maybe they'd be willing to order them in, since it's on their stocking list. I've spoken to the head cooperate vet for the entire chain, and they take great pains to ensure their stock is healthy and chytrid-free. Happy hunting! Hope you find your little froggies!


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## ChoclateBetta

In the U.S. they are banned in most states.


----------



## Neight

I just read through all ninety-six pages of this thread... What a read! A good one, though! Very informative, and it's nice to hear the odd situations people experience with these guys, how they deal with them and what they learn. I would really, really love to get one of these little guys. He would either be in my community tank and hand fed or in his own three to five gallon. It depends on if I can find a tank the right size for cheap! My only problem is my mother. Even though all my animals are my complete responsibility both care-wise and financially, she refuses to even talk about letting me get one. 
I wish I knew why she's doing that. Something about having a limit to the freedom I can have. I just don't get it! Oh well. Hopefully one day, she'll let me... I love seeing everyone's pictures, and I'm so sorry for the losses a few of you have experienced...


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## ChoclateBetta

Same problem with my parents too.


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## Neight

It righteously sucks :c


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## ChoclateBetta

Atleast I get 30 gallons of water.


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## Chesh

Well, wow! You read_ ALL_ of it, lol?! Oddly enough, I've come across a few people who are actually TERRIFIED of frogs. Even teeny tiny have-to-stay-underwater frogs. . . maybe your mom is one of those? Regardless of her reasons why, at least you know that you'll be prepared when the day comes (and I'm sure it will!) Good luck!!!


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## ChoclateBetta

In Florida I could catch them with my hands.


----------



## aemaki09

ChoclateBetta said:


> Are ACFs legal in your state? What is that plant in your avatar?


Yes adf's are legal in my state, and the plant is amazon frogbit which is also legal


----------



## LittleWatty

aemaki09 said:


> Yes adf's are legal in my state, and the plant is amazon frogbit which is also legal


ACFs are different than ADFs  African Clawed Frogs vs African Dwarf Frogs.

Oh, and I've finally moved! Well... kind of. I got the go-ahead yesterday to start moving into my new place. Today I moved all my tanks in. Since I don't have all of my stuff here (most of it is back at my parents house, since it wouldn't fit in my last apartment), 3 of my tanks will have to stay half-empty. However, Tintri and my frogs are all set up! When I actually have a tolerable internet connection, I'll definitely upload pictures. Skinny isn't so skinny anymore either  No armpit pimples, so still not sure what Skinny will be.


----------



## aemaki09

Oops, lol well both are legal in my state lol

And congrats on having a move done! My ex was in the army so we used to move every like 6 months to a year...it drove me nuts! I finally ended up making movers come in and do it all


----------



## ChoclateBetta

aemaki09 said:


> Yes adf's are legal in my state, and the plant is amazon frogbit which is also legal


Not ADF ACF. Are Amazons good in covered aquariums?


----------



## Neight

Chesherca said:


> Well, wow! You read_ ALL_ of it, lol?! Oddly enough, I've come across a few people who are actually TERRIFIED of frogs. Even teeny tiny have-to-stay-underwater frogs. . . maybe your mom is one of those? Regardless of her reasons why, at least you know that you'll be prepared when the day comes (and I'm sure it will!) Good luck!!!


 Actually, my mom loves them! When I went to pick out my most recent platies, the store had just stocked a new tank of them, and she commented how cute they are! I would have gotten two, then, but at the time I didn't feel comfortable, since I didn't know much about them...


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Sad thing I hav never seen a heathy one.


----------



## Neight

Really? Do you local stores carry them, and they're just not healthy, or what? The ones in the tank were obviously juvenile, but they all seemed to be quite healthy and active!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Our pet stores have never carried them. Hallmark used to have them in those closed ecosystems with some food. They rarely moved.


----------



## LittleWatty

Finally have an internet connection that only argues with me once and a while XD So, here's those photos I promised! Most of them are of Skinny, since Tubby doesn't like the camera. In fact... all of them might be Skinny. He/she just loves getting his/her picture taken!

Also, with the young frogs its really hard to tell whether they're sick or just young. The froglets are usually really skinny with pale skin, so instinct tells us that's a sick frog even if its not. The activity is another thing altogether, though. When I got Skinny and Tubby, I specifically requested Skinny because he was the most active frog in the tank. Still is!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Are they normally active? Carter when I learn how to use a camera will love it he is most active when I approach.


----------



## aemaki09

ChoclateBetta said:


> Not ADF ACF. Are Amazons good in covered aquariums?


I've only had them in for a couple weeks, one covered one not, they seem to be doing well in both...but the non covered is a little greener, might be because im using different bulbs in them both. But they are pretty inexpensive and provide good hiding spaces for my females with their roots


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I think I should try and find some for my ten. Where did you get yours?


----------



## aemaki09

From titolatino in the classifieds on here


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## ChoclateBetta

Rats.


----------



## aemaki09

You might be able to get them at a specialty fish store, but I've never seen them at PetsmArt or places like that. Sorry


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Petco is the only pet store we have here.


----------



## Neight

Yikes, I just got back from the petshop here, and their ADFs are twelve dollars!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Wow is there anything special about them?


----------



## aemaki09

the ADF's near me are only 3. thats Crazy yours are 12!!!
I am really considering going to buy a few tomorrow while i'm black friday shopping.


----------



## xShainax

Fed them tonight and Stumpy is refusing to eat.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Why do you think that is?


----------



## LittleWatty

Could be that Stumpy is just having a hard time finding the food, or just doesn't quite understand yet. Are the frogs in their own tank, or is it a community tank? If they're in a community tank it can be very difficult to get them their food because they are very slow about it.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

They have special feeding tubes for ADFs.


----------



## xShainax

I have been handfeeding both of them, and they got it down, but now Stumpy is refusing to eat.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Hope he does well.


----------



## LittleWatty

I'll try to offer suggestions until the more experienced members show up. If you're feeding them in the mornings, you could try switching to feeding Stumpy at night. Mine tend to eat better if I feed them just before I go to bed. Otherwise, he might be stressed if something has recently changed with the tank. Lights on too much, water too cold, something like that.


----------



## aemaki09

So I went in today planning to buy a couple ADF's but asked the girl who was helping me if they used the same net with all the frogs. She said yes, and I explained what the issue with that was, and she blew me off. I sent an e-mail to corporate as soon as I left the location. If someone is trying to help you learn what to do why won't you listen to their advice?! I can't believe it


----------



## aemaki09

So, does anyone know where I could order an ADF online since nobody around me carries them without screwing up how to take care of them?


----------



## ChoclateBetta

aemaki09 said:


> So I went in today planning to buy a couple ADF's but asked the girl who was helping me if they used the same net with all the frogs. She said yes, and I explained what the issue with that was, and she blew me off. I sent an e-mail to corporate as soon as I left the location. If someone is trying to help you learn what to do why won't you listen to their advice?! I can't believe it


I hate people like that.


----------



## Chesh

Uh-oh! Poor little dude. . . hope he's okay! I agree with Watty - I feed mine in the evenings, too. Since it's naturally their most active time of day, they seem to like it best that way. If that doesn't work, try fasting them for 24 - 48 hours, and try it again. It's REALLY easy to overfeed ADF, and once they've reached around 9 months of age (from birth - including taddy stages!) they only NEED to be fed every other or every third day. Maybe he's just been getting too much and is simply not hungry? Keep us informed. . . hope all is well!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Are they active?


----------



## Chesh

aemaki09 said:


> So, does anyone know where I could order an ADF online since nobody around me carries them without screwing up how to take care of them?


I'm sorry - I'm not really sure of any reputable sellers online for the froggies. $12 bucks is a LOT, woah! PetSmart also sells for around the $3 mark. . . of course, you'll be paying far more if you have to add a $50 shipping for overnight delivery, which you'd have to do with the temps dipping. The only other thing you can do is TRY to get the frogs from the shop and do a preemptive treatment for Chytrid or (what I would do) watch and see - just because they HAVE ACF doesn't mean that they're 100% SURE to be ill, you know? Of course you'd be supporting a shop that is doing things in a way that isn't exactly right, but. . . *shrugs*

Sorry! I'm mixing up two posters - I need a nap  Good luck to BOTH of you in finding your little froggies!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What is there normal behavoir?


----------



## Chesh

CB, are you asking what normal behavior is for ADF, or asking after someone's frog in particular?


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Chesherca said:


> CB, are you asking what normal behavior is for ADF, or asking after someone's frog in particular?


Normal behavoir of ADFs?


----------



## Chesh

It really depends on the frog, their age, individual personality. . .as well as what their tank looks like (if it's planted with lots of hiding spots or not), and how many of them there are!

They seem to be more active when kept in pairs or groups, and also if there are lots of plants for them to play in. The sense of security that plants and other frogs bring seems to bring them out more, but a single frog on it's own will still be active - they're social, but don't NEED friends to be happy.

In my experience, they spend their days hanging around in plants, or floating at the surface, and become super active in the evenings and at mealtimes. If you feed them in the early evening (5ish), you'll be rewarded with a ton of activity until lights-out.

I'm not sure what to compare them TO as far as activity is concerned, but sure! They're active enough


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Wow that is a lot different than the behavoir I saw.


----------



## Chesh

Saw where? At the shop? The frogs in the shops are stressed out - aside from travel and new water parameters (including the higher levels of nitrates that most fish shops have), they also have to deal with bright lights and open tanks - neither of which the nocturnal ADF are huge fans of. Many pet shops also have no idea how to properly care for or feed these little creatures, so there's also that. . . once you get them home and settled in a nice tank, you really see how much fun they are. Of course I'm biased - I just think they're the sweetest little things


----------



## ChoclateBetta

At Halmark in those little .25-.50 containers 2 frogs and a plant. Glad they stopped selling them.


----------



## aemaki09

Chesherca said:


> I'm sorry - I'm not really sure of any reputable sellers online for the froggies. $12 bucks is a LOT, woah! PetSmart also sells for around the $3 mark. . . of course, you'll be paying far more if you have to add a $50 shipping for overnight delivery, which you'd have to do with the temps dipping. The only other thing you can do is TRY to get the frogs from the shop and do a preemptive treatment for Chytrid or (what I would do) watch and see - just because they HAVE ACF doesn't mean that they're 100% SURE to be ill, you know? Of course you'd be supporting a shop that is doing things in a way that isn't exactly right, but. . . *shrugs*
> 
> Sorry! I'm mixing up two posters - I need a nap  Good luck to BOTH of you in finding your little froggies!


 
lol yeah I am really not in favor of supporting a shop like that, and I dont have a large enough QT tank for treatment for them so I dont think it'll work out unless I go out of town and find them somewhere that way.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Sad thing we only have one pet store here.


----------



## twissfish

I got an ADF as a present a couple of days ago along with Zoo Med Frog and Tadpole food. I put him in the 5 gallon with a gentle betta. 

My first question: 
Is this food alright for them or should I buy something else? So far I've presoaked them and fed them to him with tweezers. (That's the only way he'll eat because I have him with my betta and he rather enjoys it.) I've also given him thawed bloodworms.

My second question: 
Should I get him a buddy? I read they are social and like to live in groups, but as of now he is by himself. Will he be alright by himself?


----------



## ChoclateBetta

They love being in groups but can be kept alone. I would not add one. Or atleast remove the Betta first.


----------



## twissfish

Why would I need to remove my betta? He doesn't pick on the frog nor does he eat the frog's food.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I mean to fit more frogs. Plus some are great killers.


----------



## twissfish

My betta is very gentle. I have housed him with tiny juvie RCS and he never ate one. 

Besides that do you think he will be okay on his own without another frog? And is his food okay?


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I am worried the new ADF will attack him. ADFs will do well on there own.


----------



## Chesh

Twiss. . . CONGRATULATIONS on your new little Froggy!

ZooMed Frog and Tadpole bites are fine for the frog, as long as s/he willl eat them! Pre-soaking them is a great idea, and you can also supplement the pellets with brine and bloodworm. . . wet frozen, not freeze dried. They'll eat almost anything meaty. Feeding with tweezers (or by hand or with a turkey baster) is fine, too.

It's fine to keep him with a Betta, lots of people do. The main concern here, aside from aggression from the fish (which doesn't seem to be a problem for you!), is that the frog gets his fair share of food and the Betta doesn't get overfed. As long as you're feeding with tweezers, this shouldn't be an issue - just keep it in mind. If they aren't fed by hand, ADF are slow and messy eaters, the Betta (or any other fish) would easily eat everything before the frog has had a bite - again, not a problem if you're feeding by hand (or tweezers)

ADF ARE social, but they aren't like shoaling fish - they do perfectly fine on their own. You may see more activity from them when they're kept in groups, but an ADF alone will be perfectly happy and content. If you DO choose to get another ADF, you will have to move up to a bigger tank. You could keep 2 ADF in a 5g only, or 1 frog + 1 Betta - but anything over that will require a larger tank size.

To the best of my knowledge frogs don't hurt Betta fish, lol! I've read the occasional tale of one latching onto a Betta's tail thinking it was food, but they figure it out pretty quickly, and let go. Not sure where that idea came from - ADF are really sweet little creatures, and have no teeth, lol! 

Hope this helps! :-D'

ETA: In case I read that wrong, ADFs do NOT 'attack' other ADF, either. . . females can get pushy at meal times, and when they feed, since they're so blind, they DO have a habit of accidentally nomming on the others flippers and noses, but again - no harm done, and a quick release when they figure out what happened. Silly frogs...


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I mean ADFs attacking Bettas.


----------



## Chesh

I don't think it's really anything to be overly worried about - FAR more likely that the Betta would go after the frog, from what I've seen. . . Personally, I prefer to keep ADF in a species-only environment, but as long as the betta is nice about it, and the owner keeps a close eye on their behavior, and makes sure everyone is fed properly, it should be okay


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I would say 2 ADFs and a Betta in a 5 gallon is overstocking.


----------



## Chesh

Chesherca said:


> If you_ DO_ choose to get another ADF, you will have to move up to a bigger tank. You could keep 2 ADF in a 5g only, or 1 frog + 1 Betta - but anything over that will require a larger tank size.


Agreed.


----------



## twissfish

Chesherca said:


> Twiss. . . CONGRATULATIONS on your new little Froggy!
> 
> ADF ARE social, but they aren't like shoaling fish - they do perfectly fine on their own. You may see more activity from them when they're kept in groups, but an ADF alone will be perfectly happy and content. If you DO choose to get another ADF, you will have to move up to a bigger tank. You could keep 2 ADF in a 5g only, or 1 frog + 1 Betta - but anything over that will require a larger tank size.


Thank you, Chesherca and ChoclateBetta, for all your help! This is what I was mainly worried about. I would never have bought a pet without having fully researching and first setting up their home. He was, however, a gift and was just too cute to pass up! If this is the case, then I'll keep my lone ADF with my betta. They seem to get along fine and neither pays attention to the other. My betta is rather lazy and spends most of his time towards the middle-top. I plan to always hand feed him so I'll make sure the betta gets none! 
Again, thank you! :-D


----------



## Olympia

As long as you don't end up with Atilla the frog, you should be fine. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## twissfish

LOL, I remember reading that! How is she doing, anyway? And "The Hun?" :-D


----------



## SpookyTooth

I think... we need more frog photos and videos. -Nods profusely- Yup. Critical to the integrity of the topic!

I have some sad news, though. The store I frequent no longer stocks African dwarf frogs; the last two batches came in with horrible bacterial infections, apparently, and they no longer think it's wise to stock them. I'm inclined to agree, to be honest, as if the breeder sends out sick animals then it could wreak havoc on the store, its other livestock and reputation not to mention how unfair it is on the individual animals affected.

I stood in the store looking at the bettas and red cherry shrimp and after a little while I decided not to restock Kaze's 4 gal; I'm breaking it down and moving all plants/livestock (which consists of a single assassin snail and various other snails) into Red's 7 gal instead. With the way my health is at the moment I just can't care for another animal, especially an aquatic one. The 4 gal will have new life breathed into it in the form of carnivorous plants; I'm going to turn it into a terrarium which I'm very excited about -- I haven't been this excited in a fair while, seems my health has been getting in the way of me enjoying my hobbies.

I'm still going to hang around in this topic because I simply _love_ reading about everyone's frogs and their antics so unfortunately you're all stuck with me ;-)


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## LittleWatty

Those poor frogs! It'd be so nice if there were stocking breeders out there that thought of these animals as just that, and not just stock to make profit off of. Hopefully that store will eventually stop buying from that breeder all together (if they sell more than just ADFs) and find another one to get their stock from. 

I'm definitely happy for you being happy about your plans for the 4 gallon!  When my two 6.6 gallon tanks are empty, I'll probably do the same thing with them. Running so many tanks is tough, and having health problems doesn't help any.

I'm sure I won't be the only person to say that you're more than welcome to stay


----------



## Chesh

Awwwww, Spooks. . . I'm sorry to hear that you've been so unwell.









I know what you mean about the frogs, it's GOOD to see a shop that takes action and stops supporting the breeders who are sending out sub-par stock, but still a shame that you won't be getting your frog(s) YET! I'm still holding out hope that one day, you'll be a happy frog owner, too! 

Hmmmm. . .Let me see what frog eye candy I have laying around for you. . .


----------



## SpookyTooth

Thank you both  I'll be fine one of these days, until then I'm going to spoil what I have rotten! Bought a piece of driftwood adorned with two suction cups today, going to get all the anubias and java ferns from the 4 gal attached to it and hook it up in Red's tank -- it's like a floating platform. Really awesome.

Eee frog stuff! Maybe one day I can put together a 10 gal NPT specifically for frogs. One daaayyy!!


----------



## Chesh

Spoiling the wet pets is_ ALWAYS_ a good plan Yes... one day, one day you'll have the best froggy setup that ever was, I'm quite sure of it - you're so good to your animals!

So, I popped in and had a chat with Freckles. He wants me to pass on an invitation. . . he says you're more than welcome to stop by his house for a cup of tea any time. . .with blood-worm scones, of course. . .says any friend of frogs is a frog of his. . .or friend. . . oh whatever! Interpreting Frog is very difficult at times!










Silly Frecks. . .


----------



## SpookyTooth

That has to be one of the most awesome frog shots ever! He looks a little... eerie... standing up on his hind legs and what not ;-) but I'd certainly be up for tea and bloodworm scones! Perhaps some brine shrimp crumpets too?! Om nom...


----------



## Chesh

ROFL!!! I walked in and saw him standing there, zenning out, so perfectly in front of his little house, I had to run and grab my camera. Shrimp crumpets, eh? Sounds delish. . . I think?


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I love spoiling Carter. When I move out and have more tanks I will defently order them.


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## LittleWatty

I would post up Frog pictures, except I haven't taken any since my last batch a few days ago! Might have to get on that... Skinny is always ready to give me some new pictures, so maybe I'll have to try and get a few shots of Tubby's fat belly.

And yes, that is an awesome yet creepy shot of Freckles! Kind'a looks like a zombie frog...


----------



## Chesh

B...R...A...I...N...S...!!!

Go! Take froggy pictures RIGHT NOW! Wanna see that Tubster of yours, Skinny is always hogging the camera, lol!


----------



## LittleWatty

Going, going! XD Tubby is actually out and about right now, which is strange for him. And Skinny is hiding... I guess they decided to switch places! They're definitely loving the new tank, though Skinny did get himself stuck in the filter flow once already... hasn't happened since, so I hope he learned his lesson! (The filter is a bit strong, but I baffled the heck out of it, so its as slow as it will ever be)

Tintri wanted in on the photo session, so I can't leave him out! Skinny was hiding in his log most of the morning, but managed to come out for a few shots after I started uploading Tubby's.

I have more pictures, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon (3pm-ish CST). I'm using my phone as a wifi-hotspot since I don't have actual internet at the moment, and its taking its sweet time. It's taken me over an hour to upload just the photos I have here! Gah. I tried to get at least one of everyone, at least.


----------



## Olympia

Oh GOSH I'll need new photos too!


----------



## Chesh

HEEHEE! TUBBY IS SOOOOOO CUTE!!! I love them both - and Mr.Betta, too!

Yes, Lympie - hop to it, gal!!! Need to see Atilla and The Hon - it's been a while!!!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Attila sounds great.


----------



## twissfish

Chesherca- You were right! I was feeding my froggy (now named Pepper) and my betta came over to check out my tweezers. Pepper bit his tail (probably thinking he was the tweezers since they're similarly colored) and promptly let go. Their reactions were hilarious. Salsa, the betta, is alright by the way. All he did before swimming away was turn and stare at Pepper. Pepper must have been so confused as to why his food got away! Salsa is no longer interested in the tweezers. lol :lol:


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I love the Betta.


----------



## Chesh

*giggle* It must suck to be a blind frog in a dead-food world. . . glad they've both gone on with no harm done, lol!


----------



## twissfish

lol I agree. :-D

Here are a couple of pictures of Pepper his first day home.
(I'm assuming Pepper is a boy here. lol)


----------



## LittleWatty

Cute! Pepper looks a lot like Skinny. Just by looks, he seems pretty healthy to me. Doesn't look insanely skinny like mine did when I brought them home. Pepper may well be male, but could also be female... Just warning you!


----------



## twissfish

He does? Yay!
I honestly don't know if Pepper is a male or female. I just got used to saying he, so that's what I went with. lol I tried to look at his body shape and tail stub to check gender, but I have no idea what I'm supposed to be comparing.


----------



## Chesh

Check under his arms. If you see pink or white pimples, you've got a male


----------



## twissfish

Pepper is doing the zen position thingie up against the cave. lol I can't see under his arms though.  I'll have to check when he steps out into the light or tomorrow.


----------



## Chesh

Oooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...


----------



## LittleWatty

I know what you mean, Twiss XD I call Skinny a he often, even though I don't know for sure yet! Even if Pepper doesn't have them yet, he may within a few months. From what I can tell, most ADFs that are sold in pet stores haven't yet reached maturity. At least, that's been the case with mine. Tubby got his within a month, and Skinny has yet to show any signs of being definite male or female. 

Funny thing happened to Skinny tonight... I was feeding them the Zoo Med frog pellets (since my bloodworms are in my other freezer), and Skinny decided to meet my baster halfway up the tank wall. Well... he ended up sinking back to the bottom on his back XD Got stuck that way for a good 5 minutes before he managed to flip himself back over. I would have taken pictures, but I seem to have misplaced my camera. Again.


----------



## bryzy

It's possible to breed ADF's right? And if so how?


----------



## Chesh

They breed! Breeding is the EASY part. . . first you need a boy frog and then a girl frog. . . and then they do the happy froggy-back dance and scatter eggs ALL.OVER.THE.PLACE.

But then they eat 'em. 

Seriously, though - the breeding part just happens. My male and female were a mated pair. But it's really difficult to raise the eggs through the taddy stage and into froglets. First problem is that they have to be removed from the tank without ever being exposed to the air. Next, they're very prone to moulding over, so you have to keep them in PRISTINE conditions, with good flow. After hatching . . . it takes a LOT of work to keep them fed and thriving. They need the tiniest food and the cleanest water. One woman that I know of managed it, she started off with over a hundred eggs from several batches and I *think* she ended up with 7 ADF in the end. She was doing 3x daily water changes with a turkey baster! But it CAN be done!!! One day, I intend to prepare a set-up in advance and give it a try.  Good luck to you!


----------



## bryzy

OMG. I could never do that. I mean I'm preparing to breed bettas for the first time so I kinda need the money and time to go towards that.


----------



## twissfish

LittleWatty said:


> Funny thing happened to Skinny tonight... I was feeding them the Zoo Med frog pellets (since my bloodworms are in my other freezer), and Skinny decided to meet my baster halfway up the tank wall. Well... he ended up sinking back to the bottom on his back XD Got stuck that way for a good 5 minutes before he managed to flip himself back over. I would have taken pictures, but I seem to have misplaced my camera. Again.


Poor Skinny! I would have loved to see pictures. :-D At least he got his food.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

bryanacute said:


> OMG. I could never do that. I mean I'm preparing to breed bettas for the first time so I kinda need the money and time to go towards that.


 I hope to someday breed Bettas. I someday want an ACF I know they are hard to get and get big.


----------



## LittleWatty

It looks like Tintrí has camalanus worms... does anyone here know anything about them, and if you do, could they potentially infect my ADFs? Also, I'm thinking about treating the whole tank with meds. I'll list all the ones I've found (I don't know if I can get my hands on any of them). If anyone has any experience with this worm, PLEASE, help me.

liquid form of Praziquental called Prazi-Pro
"Parasite Clear" by Jungle Labs
Metronidazole (not sure of a brand name)
Fenbendazole
Levamisol
Clout


----------



## Chesh

I'm not the best at diagnosis and treatment, but to the best of my understanding, Levisamole is what you want to get rid of these horrid worms. I have NO idea about the saftey of this med for Betta, so double-check there. Again, not the best at this sort of thing, but from what I've read, and to the best of my knowledge, the frogs should not be affected by this parasite. That being said, I don't think they'd do well with the treatment - so you'll have to move them out of the tank while you're treating the fish. . . Gah, I'm so sorry you have to deal with this! *hugs* Good luck!


----------



## LittleWatty

Me too >.< And after just having moved everyone, I have to move them all again. I hope I don't stress out poor Tubby and Skinny while trying to sort this all out. I'd be devastated if I lost that whole tank setup.


----------



## Chesh

:/ Poor froggies. Poor fishy. . . what symptoms is he showing? Are you 100% SURE it's those nasty worms? They're so difficult to get rid of. Poor little guy. . . hopefully someone with more experience with illnesses - and Beta - will be by to help you out *worries*


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What do you think caused the worms?


----------



## Chesh

lol, other worms. . .


----------



## LittleWatty

I'm not 100% on it, but that's only because I have no experience with them. I have a thread in the Diseases and Emergencies section, someone replied that it might be them, and after looking around/doing my own research, they do seem a likely culprit. Here are the best picture I posted, in case anyone here knows anything about them:

Just as a note, I will be posting a new thread soon with the name of the worms in hopes that someone with experience will help me with this. I can't lose Tintrí  I really really hope that ADF's can't get them. Skinny is still so small and fragile looking.

No, Chocolate Betta, I have no idea what caused the worms. The only thing I can think of is maybe he had them when I bought him. They can stay internal for a few months (as far as I read), and only now have I seen the adults protruding.

I did manage to get some Tetra Parasite Guard (or something like that... I can't remember exactly what it was). I'm thinking about using the tabs as both an external/water treatment, and soaking his food in it. Does this idea sound good/bad? I know some medicines are best used if the food is soaked in it, but I don't know about the Tetra stuff.-


----------



## Chesh

Poor little thing... I REALLY hope you get him through. You're right, he most likely has had them for a while. . . that's so SAD!


----------



## LittleWatty

I never would have known something was wrong if I hadn't seen the little red things hanging out. His appetite hasn't changed, he's as active as ever, as colorful as ever... I just don't know


----------



## Chesh

I'm sorry, Watty! I just don't know enough about medications to really be comfortable with offering you advice. All I know is what I've read/seen from others battling these things, and they're a tough lot to kill. Maybe Gizmo would have more advice to offer you - she's been keeping Betta for a much longer time than I have, and I know they can be really sensitive to medications. All I would say is whatever you try, you should move the frogs before you do. They tend to be very sensitive to many meds, and to the best of my knowledge, are NOT carriers nor are able to become infected by most, if not all, parasites that affect fish. Their systems are too different, and parasites tend to be fairly host-specific as a general rule. . . I really wish I could tell you something more. Hopefully it's a GOOD sign that he's doing so well. Maybe you caught it early enough to knock them out before they get terrible. . . I've read of users using a med by Jungle Labs on the food - but the problem was that the fish wouldn't eat the stuff, so it really didn't do as much internally as they had hoped. It's a really nasty parasite, and tough to get rid of, so I'd go with the strongest med you can to get rid of it asap, and keep the substrate as clean as possible to avoid re-infection. . . *sigh*


----------



## LittleWatty

The reinfection is why I wanted to treat the whole tank. Use something that will kill the worms that are in the water/substrate and in my fish. I've only been able to get my hands on one type of medication so far  I'm going to use it on his food tonight in hopes of at least making a little progress, even if it doesn't clean out his system completely. I'm going to look around online to see if I can't find any of the stronger meds, and get them as soon as I can. I asked my resource at Petco (who actually knows her stuff) but she had never encountered these damnable worms before and was clueless.

I'm looking to get some Levamisole from online right now. Is Levamisole Hydrochloride the right stuff? I've read that the pure powder is the best stuff, and to avoid anything with a lot of sugar or other additives.


----------



## Chesh

To the best of my shaky knowledge, yes. . . and you should be able to find it on Aquabid or Ebay. If you need help with dosing and such, Mikaila31 knows far more about this med (and such things) than I do. . . I wish I had more to offer you!
*
*


----------



## LittleWatty

Thanks for your help anyway, its really appreciated  I'm going to use the Tetra meds I got for now, until I can get my hands on some Levamisole HCl. Crossing my fingers! And toes! And everything else I can.


----------



## Chesh

ME TOOOOOOOO! Please keep us posted. *worries* Hope everything works out :/


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I hope they do well.


----------



## LittleWatty

I've officially started treating Tintri as of a few hours ago. Frogs are in their own little tank temporarily, so they are avoiding the stress of medications. I added the Tetra Parasite Guard tab to his tank, and also presoaked his food for the night in water that was dosed with the Tetra meds. Hoping that'll at least keep them in check until the medicated food I ordered comes in. Its treated with Levamisole, so I'm hoping it'll kick these suckers where the sun don't shine and give me back my fish! It's being shipped first class, so it should be in by Tuesday. Wish I had ordered it yesterday, then it might have come in by today. I just didn't realize anything was wrong yesterday... ah well...


----------



## LittleWatty

As a pick-me-up, I took some more pictures of Tubby and Skinny while they're in the temporary tank. Its a rather small tank (but the only thing I have on hand at the moment), so they don't have nearly as many places to hide. Thus... easier pictures! Most of these were just after feeding time, so they're both a little fat.

No change with Tintri overnight. Might be getting some real levamisole (not a medicated food) from someone on TFK, which is a plus.


----------



## Chesh

HOORAY FOR FROGGIES. . . and hard-core de-wormers! Sounds like you're on the right track - keeping fingers crossed for your poor little fishy.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Those frogs are adorible.


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## LittleWatty

Well... my frogs gave me quite the surprise this morning... I don't know what to say other than Tubby doesn't quite seem to know what he's doing. He grabbed on to Skinny a little too high XD


----------



## Chesh

Ahhhhh, the bumbling first attempts at love!!!








I just KNEW they were a pair - funny that they're BACKWARD, lol!


----------



## LittleWatty

Well, there always is the possibility that Tubby doesn't fight for the same team as the other male frogs, if you catch my meaning! lol I just got back from work and found him at it again, only this time he got it right!


----------



## Chesh

LittleWatty said:


> Well, there always is the possibility that Tubby doesn't fight for the same team as the other male frogs, if you catch my meaning!












At it again, eh? Makes me wonder if the Betta was making them nervous, since they just started *ahem* doing it when they were moved to a fish-free tank. Whatever the reason, glad to hear they're happy in their temporary digs! How's the betta doing? Did you ever get in touch with Mika about how to battle those worms?


----------



## LittleWatty

Someone found my thread in the diseases section and offered to send me some Levamisole, but haven't heard anything back yet. Tintri is doing alright so far, but no progress on the worms with the treatment I've been giving him so far. I did buy some Levamisole infused food that looks promising. I'm definitely going to be looking around and asking more questions though.


----------



## Chesh

Keep us posted! It's so hard when there's a problem like this that you have to wait for the proper meds to really do any good. . . hard enough when you have meds on-hand. Hoping the other med you have to hold him over does the trick and keeps things to a dull roar. Any sign of the vile things coming OUT of him yet?


----------



## LittleWatty

Not that I can tell. Still the four little spikes (no more, no less than before). I thought I might have seen maybe one of them passing, but no such luck. He's still happy and active though.


----------



## Bigj713281

Been thinking about getting a adf how do y'all usually feed them since they're passive eaters


----------



## Chesh

Mine are kept in a species-only tank, so I have no problems just dropping the food in and leaving it until they find it. When they were in community, I'd hand-feed them or use a turkey baster or oral syringe to get the food directly to their mouth. Some people on this board also use tweezers, or feed in a specific area - like a cup or a dish, or in some other way target-feed them. As long as you're aware that there could be a problem, and pay enough attention to ensure that the frog is eating their share, they'll be fine. Adult frogs (older than 9 months) only _need _to be fed every other or even every third day, and they're very quick to catch on to whatever method you use to feed them. Smart little buggers!


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## LittleWatty

They really do catch on quickly. Within a few days mine knew exactly what it sounded like when my turkey baster hit the top of the water, and knew exactly what it looked like when it got close enough to them that they could hit it with a quick push. They really do hit those things hard if they're hungry.


----------



## LittleWatty

Well... things just keep getting "better and better." I'm fairly certain Sonas (avatar pic) has Dropsy  I noticed he's been bloated more than usual lately (he's been rather bloated ever since he ate those ghost shrimp a few weeks past), and tonight when I went to see if he would eat, I noticed his scales were pineconing. *sigh*


----------



## Bigj713281

Do y'all have problems eating that you're betta is eating your frogs pellets


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## LittleWatty

When my frogs were with my betta, I had trouble with it all the time. He figured out the feeding schedule quicker than they did. What I did to curb that was I put him back in his cup and floated him in the tank while I fed the frogs. After about a half hour to an hour, he'd jump out of the cup and be back into the tank, but usually the frogs will have finished eating by then, so it wasn't too big of a deal.


----------



## Chesh

Oh man, Watty. . . I'm so sorry *hugs* It's always one thing after another when fish get sick. I REALLY hope he pulls through all of this.


----------



## LittleWatty

I'll probably lose him, since I can't afford to go get any new meds for this, and I think I caught it too late, but I'm doing everything I can to make him comfortable at least.


----------



## Chesh

I'm so sorry. . . it isn't your fault, you know he's had these worms for much longer than he's been with you, and it's very likely that the rest of his problems are a direct result of the infestation. At least you know that you gave him the best life you could, and that he was happy while he was with you. . . Gah! Watty! I'm just so SAD for you and your little friend. I wish there was something we could do to help. Seeing your fish suffer and knowing that there really isn't anything to be done is the worst. What meds would you even be able to use for dropsy? I was always under the impression that there wouldn't be very much you could do for that, except maybe epsom salts?


----------



## LittleWatty

I was talking about Sonas (dropsy) not Tintri (worms) in terms of not being able to do much more (just to make sure there was no confusion of fish!). For Dropsy, I found that you need anti-bacterial meds like Maracyn I and II or Plus, and epsom salts. Its a really tough disease to battle, since by the time you see symptoms the organs have already begun to fail. I'm just doing all I can now to keep Sonas comfortable while I direct the rest of my efforts to get Tintri healthy. Sonas has always been a bit... strange, in terms of health. If it wasn't one thing, it was another. All minor, but still. He never really seemed fully healthy. I might keep my eye out for another Black Devil male once he passes, since I'll have an empty tank. Black Devils/Orchids, particularly CTs, are my favorite.

So long as no other fish get sick, I might be able to beat these damned worms.


----------



## Chesh

Oh, yeah... I'm sorry! I missed that it was a different fish. Gah! What a rough week!!! You're right about Dropsy, it is a hard one to beat. One thing worth mentioning is that the Maracyns are good meds to keep on hand, as they are safe to use with ADF as well - and with those guys, once you figure out that there may be a problem, it's almost too late to help them, so good to have froggy-safe meds on hand. Learned this when my baby got sick with that fungus, poor thing :/

I wish you luck on your battle - again *sigh*


----------



## LittleWatty

I've been trying to rebuild my bank account, otherwise I would probably have more meds on hand. I'm pretty sure Petco will have the Maracyn and a few other meds once I can afford them. I'm saving up for after school when I'm going to be moving half way across the country, and I've been struggling with that since I started. Too much stuff that needs to be bought!


----------



## LittleWatty

Lost Sonas sometime during the night... at least now he's no longer suffering, and I can now focus all my attention on Tintri. Swim in peace, my little buddy.


----------



## SpookyTooth

Oh I'm so, so sorry...


----------



## Chesh




----------



## LittleWatty

With him gone, I've got an empty 6.6 gallon tank... which I am tempted to turn into a Frog habitat. So, some good may come out of his passing. I won't be doing anything with it until the first of January, though, so I've got time to plan.


----------



## Hershey

:c


----------



## LittleWatty

Tintri officially has received his first batch of treatment. The next few days will be critical in telling whether or not the levamisole is doing its job. Hopefully he'll have his frog companions back in a few weeks, and I won't have to worry about these worms anymore.


----------



## Chesh

Hooray for meds!!! Hopefully everything will be smooth sailing from here on out. . .


----------



## LittleWatty

I sure hope so! It looks like he may be passing some of the worms (as they're sticking out a whole lot more), but I'm not entirely sure, having never dealt with these things before.


----------



## Chesh

I've never had to deal with worms personally. . . to be honest, parasitic worms are pretty much my worst nightmare when it comes to fish. *wince* I have a parasite phobia, but I guess we all do.

But from what I've seen following other people who HAVE had this problem, they should start falling out. You *can* speed the process by removing them yourself once you can get to them. *blegh* But once they start to pass, just be sure to clean the tank constantly to keep them (and their eggs) from re-infecting the fish. . .


----------



## LittleWatty

Planning on keeping it clean. I've got 5g of levamisole, and it only takes about .1g to treat a 10 gallon tank, so I've got plenty of the stuff.


----------



## Chesh

Watty, you're doing great! I think you're doing everything you possibly can be doing - if he can make it through, you'll get him through this - keep up the good work, and keep us posted!


----------



## LittleWatty

He won't eat the medicated food that came in today, but he's eating his normal food, so I'm not worried. The medicated stuff is flakes, and he's never eaten flakes before, so I think that's part of it. Plus, I think he doesn't like the flavor XD One kind that I got for him that is supposed to boost his immune system, and help medications work, he tried to eat but spit it out. Tried it a couple times, but spit it out each time. I fed him one pellet of his normal food to make sure he was eating, and he took it easily so I'm not worried. Things are looking good!


----------



## twissfish

That's great news! I wish you the best of luck! 


On a side note:
Pepper got to me. I now officially want more frogs. :-D My dad gave me a ten gallon which has been cycling for about a week and a half. When it is finished I want to turn it into a frog tank... so... how many could I comfortably fit in there? I was thinking of putting Pepper in there and getting two more. :-D:-D:-D


----------



## LittleWatty

Three, maybe four frogs total? Definitely keep whatever new frogs you get separate from Pepper. If any of them have Chytrid, you don't want Pepper to get it! Or if Pepper has it, you don't want him to give it to the other three. It'll have to be a three month quarantine, but once you get past that, you should be home free 

Another update on Tintri: I no longer see worms hanging out of him! Going to clean the tank tomorrow, give him another small dose of levamisole, then clean it again in 3 days. Then he's on a 3 week off-period before I dose the tank again.


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## twissfish

Yaaaay! I might get two more, and put them in the 10, then add Pepper three months later. (If all is well.) Sound like a good plan? 

What happened to I will only ever love betta fish? lol That has expanded to shrimp, my nerite snail, and now ADFs.


----------



## Chesh

Hooray for Tintri! *dances* Wonderful, wonderful news!

Twiss, I agree with Watty. I have a 10g, an though I know I *could* stock more than that, I feel that 3 frogs is the maximum/ideal for that tank size! I'll be QT my two new arrivals in the Kindy tank - starting after Winter break. Should be fun


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## LittleWatty

Sounds like a good plan to me, Twiss  I might get two more frogs and put them in my empty 6.6 gallon, so soon enough all three of us might have new frogs!


----------



## twissfish

Yay for new frogs! :-D

Here's an update on Pepper I thought I'd share.

Notice the ghost shrimp almost the size of Pepper on top of the red silk plant in the second picture? :lol:


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Wow... I haven't been here In a while... I'm so sorry all. I've been dealing with a bad back, and focusing on raising lotl babies. 

I have gotten another little frog though!! His name is Tiny Tim in honor of the holidays. X3


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## Chesh

Awwww! Congrats on the new frog, Gizzy! Tiny Tim is adorable  So is Pepper - and his ghosty friend


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## LittleWatty

Gah, they're so cute! It makes me want to get more! XD


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## Gizmothefreaky

Thanks! Lol

Due to my back I've cut back to just my 55 gallon and the bettas, so Tim here is shacking up with a betta in a 3.5 gallon for the time being.


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## twissfish

I know I'm not supposed to have my hand in the water :-( but I dropped my tweezers and since my hand was clean I just stuck it in. xD hehehe.... Anyway, Pepper hopped up on my hand and stood there for a while and the camera happened to be right there. :-D


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## Gizmothefreaky

I stick my hands in the tank all the time. Lol! I hand catch all of my fish because its better for their fins.


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## twissfish

I make sure my hands are clean before I do. lol I was just clarifying because people scold me about putting my hand in the tank  haha


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## SpookyTooth

twissfish said:


> I know I'm not supposed to have my hand in the water :-( but I dropped my tweezers and since my hand was clean I just stuck it in. xD hehehe.... Anyway, Pepper hopped up on my hand and stood there for a while and the camera happened to be right there. :-D


Woooow he's tiny!!! I knew they were small (having seen them face to face) but for those who have never seen one up close that really gives a good idea of size.

What a cute, nosey little bugger!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah I always wash my hands in just hot water before i do. :3


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## twissfish

SpookyTooth said:


> Woooow he's tiny!!! I knew they were small (having seen them face to face) but for those who have never seen one up close that really gives a good idea of size.
> 
> What a cute, nosey little bugger!


Yeah, he's very cute and small. My hands aren't big so he may look smaller in person. x)


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## Bigj713281

Quick question just got 2 adf whenever they go underneath a decoration piece do I need to move it out so they can get out or are they good?


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## Bigj713281

Btw how do I feed these guys I bought some frog pellets and a basser but when ever I put in the water the food goes in the wrong place I can't even squirt it out


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## Gizmothefreaky

The pellets sink on their own, you really don't need to use the baster for pellets.

As for the decor, you don't need to move it unless it is heavy.


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## Bigj713281

Gizmothefreaky said:


> The pellets sink on their own, you really don't need to use the baster for pellets.
> 
> As for the decor, you don't need to move it unless it is heavy.


Yea I know they sick but since I have a betta and they're new I wanted to try to place the pellets right next to them if I just drop thm the betta will eat them

Btw is it hard to do water changes will they're in the tank will they jump out

And can they survive just on pellets I really don't want to deal with the whole freeze blood worms


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## Gizmothefreaky

They can survive but it isn't the best for them, they need the variety. If you didn't want to feed them properly, why get them? 

Cup the betta during feedings, and drop the pellets by where the frogs are, they will eat them. 

Water changes are the same with them as it is with bettas, just be careful with the gravel vac so that you don't suck them up.


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## Bigj713281

So I finally tried frozen blood worms Lloyd and hopz are grubbing on them I don't think they're ever going back to pellets


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## JennybugJennifer

I'm glad you switched from the pellets. It really it better that way. My frog wouldn't eat pellets period. His favorite were the frozen bloodworms too. Just remember to thaw them first


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## Bigj713281

JennybugJennifer said:


> I'm glad you switched from the pellets. It really it better that way. My frog wouldn't eat pellets period. His favorite were the frozen bloodworms too. Just remember to thaw them first


I'm keeping them in a little cooler with ice and ice packs since my mom won't let me put them in the fridge so basically there already almost thaw out is that okay or do they have to be completly frozen


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## JennybugJennifer

Bigj713281 said:


> I'm keeping them in a little cooler with ice and ice packs since my mom won't let me put them in the fridge so basically there already almost thaw out is that okay or do they have to be completly frozen


Honestly I'm not sure about that lol mine were kept in the freezer. My mom wasn't happy lol maybe giz will know if that's alright


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## Gizmothefreaky

They will go bad if they aren't kept frozen until you need them, think of them like meat. You can keep meat for a couple days in the fridge if its raw, but it keeps much longer if its frozen.


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## JennybugJennifer

Gizmothefreaky said:


> They will go bad if they aren't kept frozen until you need them, think of them like meat. You can keep meat for a couple days in the fridge if its raw, but it keeps much longer if its frozen.


Too true, I didn't even think of that.


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## Bigj713281

Oh shoot well when I went to the pet store today they weren't that cold


----------



## Neight

If kept with a betta, how large should the tank be? Just one frog, one betta, for the moment.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

You can keep one frog and one betta in five gallons, bigger is always better, but five is minimum.


----------



## Neight

Thank you! Looking into getting an irregular eight gallon for one of my boys and possibly a companion frog, so it's good to know that would be a good amount of space.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

No problem! Glad I can help! Lol!


----------



## JennybugJennifer

Neight said:


> If kept with a betta, how large should the tank be? Just one frog, one betta, for the moment.


Well I believe for two frogs the minimum should be 5 gallons and I think that applies to a beta and a frog. 
But I will strongly recommend you get two separate homes. Sometimes to frogs bite the betas find and sometimes the betta bites the frog. 
Also make sure you see your frog eat because sometimes the beta will eat everything and your frog will starve.


----------



## Neight

I definitely will be sure to monitor, if I do. Thankfully, the betta I would plan to put with a frog is extremely peaceful. He lives in my community tank with three platies and a lyretail balloon molly, and I have never had trouble with him, even with my longfin/nippy fish. And of course, because I would only have the one frog at a time, I would also have a three gallon tank to spare in case anything went wrong and the frog needed his own home. Thank you very much for the advice, guys!


----------



## LittleWatty

OMG, I have tadpoles!!  if I didn't have to leave for about a week, I would try and raise them, but as it is I found them on the day I had to leave... The might still be alive when I get back, but I kind of doubt it. These are the only two I've seen so far.


----------



## Chesh

OH MY GOOOOOOODNESS!!! Wow, Watty! This is amazing! Congratulations, I do hope they make it through. . . so cool!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Oh wow!! Congratulations! Lol


----------



## SpookyTooth

Wow. That's awesome! Congratulations, I hope some make it through until you get back.


----------



## Olympia

Awww cute tadpoles! Amazed you got such good shots of them! :-D

Well I impulsively bought a pair of BLONDE dwarf froggies today. ^_^ They are living in the 15 gallon with my new loaches. The only bad thing is they are the EXACT colour as the sand. So they are hard to see. And they are TINY, like Atilla could swallow them small. Now just need some names for the babies!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Ooh!!! I had one like that a long time ago. X3 they are so cute!


----------



## Olympia

Here they are! :-D


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

So cute!!!


----------



## JennybugJennifer

I hope the tads make it! That would be fun!


Beautiful pair Olympia!

And I wanted to say merry Christmas all!!


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## Chesh

D'aaaw! LOVE the babies    Congratulations on the new little guys!


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## LittleWatty

Tadpoles are MIA so I guess maybe none of them survived no care for the week I was gone  Everyone else is doing perfectly fine otherwise. Tubby and Skinny were happy to see I was back, and the fish were just glad to be fed!


----------



## LittleWatty

Scratch that - I found three! Does anyone here have any suggestions with raising them? For now they're in a smaller tank with Tubby and Skinny, but those two will be going back with Tintri soon which will leave them alone in the tank. I don't know what to feed them >.<


----------



## Chesh

YAY! TADDIES!!! I'm so happy you have three of them!!! I've never been lucky enough to raise babies, but there is a Yahoo group dedicated to ADF. One of the members there just did this - and got FROGS! (I posted a few of her pics a while back). If you don't want to join yourself, let me know - I can ask for you!


----------



## Chesh

Haha, I was so excited about the Taddies, I forgot that I have some froggy news of my own!

I decided to put little Frecks into the 55g tank as of last night. I'm really wanting to shut up a tank or two - I'm just running too many - and the lonely frog in his own 10g seemed like an obvious place to cut back. REALLY hoping this doesn't turn out to be a bad idea, but so far so good! He ate a few minutes after I put him in, and hasn't been hiding at all - though it's not exactly easy to find him... with 55 gallons and all the wood and rocks and plants that he somehow manages to blend perfectly with, it's actually kind of like playing Where's Waldo (good thing I LOVED those books!)


----------



## SpookyTooth

I'm glad to read that some tadpoles are still around, I wish you luck with them! I know absolutely nothing about their care so I can't offer any advice there.

Chesh -- I hope your little one loves the large tank, sounds like he has every reason to!


----------



## Neight

Just a quick question! If I have a divided into two ten gallon, filtered and heated, the whole shemozzle, could I house a betta on one side and a frog or two on the other? I think I might even take the ten gallon for frog alone, undivided, but at the same time, I want my betta who is in my community tank to have some peace of mind and a place to build bubble nests where they aren't destroyed by insolent platies. Any suggestions?


----------



## Chesh

Yep! A divided 10g with a frog on one side and a fish on the other would be perfect! I'd put the frog on the side with the filter, if possible - they really are messy little guys. My filter broke last week and I was SHOCKED at how much poo one tiny frog can make in a 10g alone!


----------



## LittleWatty

Unless your betta is really agressive, you may not even have to divide the tank. My frogs are in a 10 gallon with my boy Tintri, and I haven't had any trouble beyond my betta trying to eat their food. That's easy enough to overcome though. If you would prefer having it divided, then Chesh has the right of things


----------



## Neight

Kaiser certainly isn't aggressive, that's for sure! Well, he's only aggressive with my male platy, who he torments sometimes, but he is fine with my balloon molly and the girls. The only real concern would have is feeding them, because while he wouldn't hurt them, he would certainly love their supper. 
Thanks!


----------



## Olympia

I'd test it without the divider but keep one handy if it's not working out.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Okay wait? Maybe I read that wrong... But how many other fish do you have in your ten gallon? I saw mention of at least a platy and Molly and 'girls'? Do you have female bettas in with him? :/


I apologize if I sound bitchy, I have the flu.


----------



## Neight

Not at all nasty! I have a male platy, and two females, plus a male balloon molly I got stuck with {They wouldn't let me return him because there was nothing wrong, what the hey?}, but the molly is being rehomed. I know they need much larger tanks. So total, my ten gallon has three platies {1:2, sadly my other female died giving birth}, one male betta and a male balloon molly. 
I'd like to take the male betta out of the community tank and have him in a divided tank with either an ADF or two, or undivided, if all goes well.
EDIT: The frogs would not be going in the community- they would be going in a new ten gallon I recently repaired.


----------



## Chesh

Sounds like a good plan to me! You'll have to let us know how everything works out with it!

In my world, Freckles is doing really well in the 55 gallon. He had to actually learn how to swim it - neat to watch him adapt from a frog and snail only 10g to a 55g with 29 other fish!


----------



## LadyVictorian

Guess who stopped eating again...Bilbo. He was doing great only feeding him every other day but the past week he hasn't been eating that much. I can only get him to eat 1-2 worms or shrimp within 3 days and I'm not sure what's wrong. The only thing I can think of is that i removed my betta from the tank so he can recover from his tail biting frenzy. I tried feeding Bilbo his bloodworms today and he only ate two. In fact he refuses to eat shrimp anymore as well both brine and mysois so when I can get him to eat it's just a few bloodworms which i know isn't good for him. I turned the temp up hoping to jump start his metabolism and get him to eat more but nothing. He's pooping normal so that isn't the issue, nothing has changed in the tank other than removing my betta, and he doesn't appear to have anything physically wrong with him.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

If you can get your hands on it, try live food.


----------



## LadyVictorian

I have brine shrimp but i think they tend to be too fast and too small for him. He will go for them but they move out of the way or Aquarius would pick them off first. If he's alone do you think it's more likely he will get more of them?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Try putting him in a smaller container first?


----------



## LadyVictorian

would a 1 gallon work?

I managed to get him to eat 2 more bloodworms, not sure how long until I can consider him well feed after 2 weeks of not eating good.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Well they can go a little while with no food, but if you put him in something smaller while you feed him he is more likely to get the food.


----------



## Chesh

Hey froggy-lovers! I just wanted to let you know that I put up a HUGE post on my 55g tank thread about my little Freckles, and how he's doing in the tank - lots of pics and a (crappy) video, if you're interested!

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...allon-tank-upgrade-113536/page38/#post1396458

 

It's been quiet around here. . .


----------



## LittleWatty

It has... We'll have to put a fix to that. Cute froggie pic spam! 
P.S. I absolutely LOVE your tank. I have tried and tried to get a natural looking tank, but it never works quite right 
P.S.S. it was adorable seeing Frecs randomly appear and just swim around casually. He seems to be loving that tank! Except maybe the current :lol:

Added the cup photo from when I last cleaned the tank so you could see the size difference. Both are obviously mature, since I had tadpoles (though, sadly lost all of them  ) but Skinny is still so tiny!

Vote: Should I keep the names Skinny and Tubby/Fatty, or should I think of something else now that I know the sex of them? XD


----------



## Chesh

AWWW! CUTE FROGGUMS!!! You CAN'T rename them now! Those names are with them for life! Even if you did rename them, you'd always think of them as Tubby and Skinny on the inside, lol! They both look like the picture of health to me. Natural variations will happen, just like with people, but they both look bright-eyed, well fed, and . . . healthy!


----------



## LittleWatty

Oh, they definitely seem healthy! I just find it funny... they're the exact opposite of what is to be expected XD

Shortly before I took the last batch of photos, Tubby was floating at the surface. Just kind of hanging out in zen mode... I tried to get the picture, but he darted too the bottom while I was fetching the camera. Sigh... he doesn't like the camera as much as Skinny


----------



## Chesh

Oh, and thanks for the compliment on Becoming. That tank has been my baby. . . I'm obsessed with her (yes, my tank is a her) and I've always thought your tank was nice with all the Java ferns and moss in there. Naturally planted tanks can be tricky, but if you figure out the right balance - and manage to KEEP it there - everything runs smoothly, more or less. It's that essential balance that can be a trick to get.

Frecks really _does_ seem to be loving all the room to play around in . . . That video was taken in the first few days of him being in the tank, it was really amazing to see how he actually had to 'learn' how to swim across such a long/tall tank, and his swimming has really gotten MUCH stronger over the few weeks that he's been in there. It's pretty amazing. You can see him in the full tank shot kind of flipping back and forth on his way across the tank - he doesn't do that nearly as much anymore.

As far as the current is concerned *giggle* It caught him by surprise over the first few days or so - the HOB filter on the 10g was always set a a low output, and the surface kept fairly calm and covered with floating plants - WAY different from the canister filter in the bigger tank. But it's amazing how quickly he figured out where the surface is calmer, like the 'dead' spot behind the spraybar, and found all of the places at the surface where he can chill out - like the driftwood that goes to the top of the tank and the floating plant-ball. At this point he often can be found intentionally (looks that way to me!) 'riding' the current to the opposite side of the tank - and he's sure to stay under it on his way back - IF he isn't fooling around and playing in it, that is. So neat to watch him interacting with the community, though I still have my reservations about keeping him in with the rams, so far so good, and he WILL give 'em a nip if they bug him. He's tougher than I realized! Fingers crossed that all goes well, the 10g is up and running still if I should need it.


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## LittleWatty

Its the balance I struggle with. I can never seem to keep any of my plants alive for very long. The moss is the only thing that's been consistent! Plus, I always seem to get bombarded with this type of algae or the next, even if I limit light time (plus no natural light) and fertilizers. I can only keep them in check if I've got some sort of algae eaters like my otocinclus in Leo's tank, and Marty (my zebra nerite) in Féileacán's. Even still, I can't quite get rid of the stuff! I'd experiment more, but I can't afford to keep buying plants and ferts, only to get overrun with algae and/or lose all my plants. Ah well... I guess I'll have to make due until the day when I'm rich and can afford such things!

I remember when Tubsters and Skinny were getting used to the 10 gallon. Skinny got caught in the current and was pushed behind the filter once (since its baffled with the plastic bottle, the current goes two ways, and one is right by the glass). I got her out pretty quick and haven't had an issue since. I'd love to get them in a bigger tank, but I have a hard enough time making sure they eat when its only Tintri that I have to worry about! XD


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## Bigj713281

So I've had hopz and Lloyd for almost a month and a half and they're doing great they look more happier here than how I saw them at petsmart and ever since I changed them to frozen blood worms they eat always and now my mom does let me keep them in a freezer so they're always fresh for them 
Quick question if I've been feeding them bloodworms this whole time and I'm sure thats what they ate at petsmart would they eat brine shrimp


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## Chesh

They should take it with no problem. If they give you any trouble, start feeding them their worms with a turkey baster, and then slowly add the brine into it while they get used to things. I've never heard of a frog that didn't like brine, so I'm betting you'll have no problems. I think it's best to feed a variety of foods, anyway  Good luck!


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## LittleWatty

I only recently added brine shrimp to my frogs diet, and they took to it pretty quickly. They still seem to prefer the bloodworms, but that's ok. I mix them together, so they get a little of both.


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## LittleWatty

To all of my fellow frog friends who keep community tanks: How do you make sure your frog gets enough food? With Tintri's tank its easy, since I just cup him while I feed the frogs. However, I'm thinking of getting a frog or two for Leo's tank. I just tore it apart and rearranged everything, so there's lot of hiding places. But, since I've got Leo and some zebra danios, it would be a lot harder to cup all of them just to feed a frog or two.


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## Chesh

Nice tank! It can be tricky to feed them in community - I now have TWO community tanks with frogs, and I'll always swear up and down that they do best in species-only tanks, mostly because of feeding. Silly frogs! I know that if you scroll through this thread, you can find Gizmo's way - she has an area for each creature of her tank. Frogs are highly trainable, so I can see how it works, but I can never get my FISH to cooperate! I usually feed with a turkey baster. It works really well once the frog is used to eating from it. If you're patient for a week or so and only feed them in a specific area of the tank, they'll go running for their 'spot' the moment they catch a whiff of food in the water. Also good to remember that you CAN skip a feeding every other day if you have to. Sometimes it's easier to feed them this way in a community, as target feeding - for me, anyway - tends to end up with them getting a *bit* more than they actually need!

I actually just posted a video on my 55g thread of me feeding my tank. Only one lil' snip of the frog, just before the 2.5 minute mark - but he's CUTE!!! 

Good luck with that set up! Keep us posted!


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## LittleWatty

Thanks! My turkey baster was how I planned on feeding them if I ever did get the frogs without advice from someone on here. I might have to try the "specific" area. I kind of do that with Skinny and Tubby, but I always have to make sure Skinny gets some before Tubby eats it all, so I track her down right away. The past couple times I've been into my local petco, the frogs have been REALLY tiny... so, I'll probably keep the one or two that I get in their own tank for a while, until they get a bit bigger. Leo's a pushover, but he did get aggressive for a little while when I added the danios. He's calmed back down since then, and doesn't chase either his otos or his danios, but I still want my frogs big enough to be able to take care of themselves whenever I add them to the tank. That's the plan, anyway... so... don't be surprised if I show up with pictures of new frogs within the next few days!


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## Chesh

I'm having very similar experiences! The last two frogs I bought were WAY smaller than the two I got before, and every time I look in the store, they ALL seem so super tiny. I know my babies GREW since I got them, but they were definitely bigger at purchase. It's odd. . .

I also had the same thing happen when I put Freckles into the 55g tank. He had always been my submissive sweetie, and let the bigger female push him around from day 1. But when he got into the community tank, he was a little bit snarky while he was settling in! I was happy to see that he could hold his own against the fish, and once they figured out that he WILL nip at them if they get in his face, they've been good at leaving him to his own thing. . . this is mostly with my Rams, though - as far as the Kuhli loaches are concerned, after the first evening, he has NO problems with them at all - he'll let them sit on his head, lol! So far so good in my community - hope yours goes well too!

And you KNOW froggy spam pics are ALWAYS welcome! <3 froggies!


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## LittleWatty

Oh, froggy pic spams are my specialty!  I'll probably get a bunch of pictures of Tubby and Skinny when I introduce the one or two new guys/gals.


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## LittleWatty

I officially have two seemingly-healthy froglets! They're so tiny! Though, they weren't as small as the others. I told the Petco employee "the bigger they are, and the harder they are to catch, the better" so I'm hoping I got some of the older frogs. Pictures will follow within the next few days as I get them settled into their temporary tank. Now I just need to think of names... I can't call them Skinny and Tubby, but I could call them Twiggy and Chubby! XD I'd prefer something else though. Suggestions welcome!


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## LittleWatty

Froggie pic spam! :-D Don't have a whole lot yet, but the little guys are hiding just now. Got the few that I could. Is it just me, or does my one little froglet have really long toes? XD Also, one of them seems to be taking after Skinny. The one with the long toes was very interested in my camera!


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## Lizdu

Hey y'all! I just got my very first froggy! I am so excited. You should have seen me at the store with my husband. He couldn't stop laughing I was so ecstatic to finally see some there! He said I could get one. So, I have put him in with my betta, and they seem to be getting along really well. Feeding hasn't been a problem, and Mr. Froggy (I know...so original...suggestions?) actually ate some bloodworms. Not to mention Rainbow, he couldn't get enough of them. He even ate off my fingers. too cute. anyway, I have gone through this entire thread, and it's what made me want an ADF. I need to take pics.


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## LittleWatty

Congrats! Chesh and I will always welcome froggy pics! I have to get some more of my new additions, but I'm going to let them get used to living in decent conditions without 30 other frogs before I start harassing them with the camera


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## Lizdu

So, I'm having fun with Mr. Froggy, and enjoy feeding him. Quick question on that though. Is it normal for him to only eat about 2-3 worms? He seems to get annoyed whenever I try to feed him more. He'll swim away, and I notice that his side pooches out some. That means he's full right?


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## Chesh

Awww! Congratulations on the new friend, can't wait to see some frog pics from BOTH of you!

To answer your question, it takes very little to fill up a tiny frog - especially if you've got a bitty juvie there, so he's fine, I'm sure. Their stomach is slightly to the left of the center of the frog, and can easily be seen if you look at their underside, a full frog will show his left side bowing out slightly, so it sounds like he's good to go!

Have fun!


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## Chesh

Awwwwww, Watty - I just saw your newbie pics! I've been out of commission for a few days, and missed them come up - ADORABLE!!!!  Sounds like they're doing really well, too!

I just added a frog to the kindergarten class tank today. A little bit nervous, but he seems to be okay. I'll be keeping a really close eye on him!


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## LittleWatty

I've been slowly collecting pics of my new guys, and plan to get them up as soon as I get some more. Both look in better shape than Skinny and Tubby when I first got them, and are rather chubby. One is really skittish while the other doesn't seem to care what I'm doing.


Also... I'm rescuing a frog from a friend of mine. Its a mature male (as she found out last night when it kept her up with its singing!). She had him in a 55 gallon community, but then it got hit really hard with worms and she has been loosing all her fish. She hasn't had much luck since she started fish keeping, so she's giving up on it and switching to either axolotls, lesser sirens, or mudpuppies. I offered to take her frog, since I just adore them.

She lives a ways away, and neither of us have time or means to get to one place or the other, so she'll have him for a little while yet. The most likely culprit for her fish massacre is worms, so I'm hoping he'll be happy and healthy once I pick him up. Any recommendations for quarantine and what not when I get him? He won't be going in with any of the frogs I currently have, so I'm not worried about chytrid, just all the other little nasties that might affect fish.


Yay Chesh! Hope all goes well with your kindergarten tank!


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## Lizdu

Thanks Chesh! That makes me feel better! Here are some pics of Mr. Froggy.


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## LittleWatty

Oh yay! Cute little froggies! Its a little blurry, but he looks healthy to me!

Guess its time for me to put up my photos. Got a mix of the newbies as well as the oldies! Total pic spam.

Still don't have my friend's frog yet, but really hoping to get him within the month. Especially if the last of her fish die.

Also, question! One of my babies has really really stumpy toes. Is that normal? Will he have a hard time swimming compared to his long-toed companion? Its clearest in the last photo.


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## Chesh

Haha! YAY for froggy pic spam! Love it!!!

Lidzu - I agree with Watty, from what I can see in the pic, he looks healthy to me! Cute little bugger!

Watty - I feel bad for your friend and her 55g! It's also really hard to treat for things like worms without killing a frog, they can be so sensitive to medications. . . *sigh* But really happy that you're around to give him a new AND GOOD home, lol! As far as QT, if she's had him for longer than 3 months, Chytrid shouldn't be a concern. For the most part, any of the worms or other illnesses that can affect fish do NOT affect frogs (and vice versa). These things, especially parasites, have their own hosts that they can't live without - so your main concern here would be that the frog would be a temporary carrier, perhaps carrying some remnant of the illness or parasite in on it's skin or inside of it's intestine (likely in the case of worms likely to have been ingested by the frog). Your best bet would be to keep him in a fishless QT for a period of at least 1 month - I'd give it 6-8 weeks to be sure, because I like to err on the side of caution. After about a month, even the most difficult of fish nasties will die off without a host (fish) to live on. The same QT process should be done with anything coming into a tank - even snails and plants if they have lived with fish in their recent past. Glad you're willing and able to give this little one a new home!

Your newbies (and the old ones, of course) are looking beautiful and fit! I wouldn't worry too much about the little one's feet. We lump several species into the common name of African Dwarf Frog, it could be that he's a slightly different frog from the ones you have, or it could be just a natural genetic variation, but either way I'm sure he'll thrive. My first frog was in a filter accident in the first month I had her, and the webbing on one of her back fins was ripped. She carried on as if nothing had happened until she died recently - the injured foot healed up, but never repaired itself, but also didn't slow her down a bit!

Good luck, both of you, on all of the new arrivals!


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## LittleWatty

I feel better now, then  I've got a plan for Gargoyle (my friend's frog) when he comes in, and I don't have to worry about the stubby toes. It'll at least be easy to tell the two frogs apart when they're in the tank! XD Its really fun finding identifying features. I also realized that Skinny and Tubby are kind of the same way. Skinny has the some what curled toes that seem to be "stubby", and Tubby has the really long unhindered toes. Wonder if that could possibly be a male/female thing too... *shrugs*

Say, when are we going to get pictures of your kindergarten tank and its new frog?


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## Chesh

Ahh! I brought them their frog on Wednesday, and immediately after came down with an evil stomach flu that has had me laying low. I managed to get in to feed him after class ended on Friday, but have otherwise avoided the school. He seems to be doing well so far, hopefully all goes well on his first weekend alone, and I'll try to nab some shots for the kindy tank thread as soon as I'm feeling better. Reports from my daughter and the teacher say that he was very active all day on Thursday and Friday, so everything seems to be going well!


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## LittleWatty

Yay for froggie! Boo for stomach flu! Sorry to hear you've been down and out. No need to push yourself on our account XD Had I known it was the stomach flu that had you down, I would have waited to ask! lol Get better soon! In the mean time, I'll have to nab more pics to keep your spirits up!

Oh, funny story. Forgot to add this before. While I was at an appointment the other day, my roomie was in the kitchen making some tea. Tintri and the frogs are in the kitchen by the sink. He looked over at them only to find Skinny up on the tips of her toes, and Tintri staring at him through her legs XD He ran over to grab my camera, but by the time he went back, both of them had vanished. I would have loved to see a picture of that, but my mental image is good enough I guess!


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## LittleWatty

I've been getting into a bad habit of double posting, but I just have to keep updating you guys on my newbies XD Since its been a week, and I'm hoping the little guys are starting to get the hang of things, I put them in their tank. Instead of putting them in Leo's 15 gallon like I had originally planned, I decided to put them in Tintri's 10 gallon. To protect Skinny and Tubby, as well as keep the 10 gallon properly stocked, I moved the oldies to Leo's 15 gallon. It seemed safer that way. The oldies are used to the routine, and are stronger swimmers, so not only can they tolerate the current of the larger tank, but they can handle themselves if Leo or my Danios decide to get nosy. All seems well so far! Fili and Kili (the names for my babies. Fili - stubby toes. Kili - long toes) seem alright in the 10 gallon and have been exploring every crevice they can find. The current doesn't seem to be bugging them, though the height of the tank seems to be giving them a bit of trouble for now. Skinny seems to be enjoying the 15 gallon, and Tubby is back to hiding like his usual self. Might have an update on him when I get pictures up.


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## LittleWatty

Ok, triple post... Sorry guys! XD I feel like I'm hogging the thread. At least its a pic spam this time!

I got a bunch of pictures today, since I moved everyone around. Skinny and Tubby were hiding most of the day, but they seem to like their new home at least somewhat. Both popped their heads out after I turned the lights out (don't worry, I didn't use a flash in those pics. Its a soft light that I use to search the dark areas of my tank for my critters that hide). I had to include a photo of Tubby's tush. It was just too cute to pass up XD

Fili and Kili seem to be loving their new home. Exploring absolutely everywhere. I increased the flow slightly after a few hours to see how they would handle the current as it would normally be. Doesn't seem to bother them one bit, though they do prefer the corners of the tank for getting air.

Going to try feeding tomorrow, hoping all goes well. I might start feeding Skinny and Tubby in the middle of the night, since the other fish slow down at that point and Leo goes to sleep in his little cave.

Edit: and one random pic of my amazing amano shrimp. He survived Sonas' shrimp killing spree, Sonas' dropsy, then surviving in a tank that was about 50F and rather dirty for about a week (after Sonas died, I didn't think any shrimp were left). That's up to and including 2 full tank tear downs and reconstructions. He also survived living with Leo for a few weeks! Now he's in with Tintri and the babies.


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## Chesh

You got some great shots of some adorable lil' froggies there - and wow! Three cheers for SUPER SHRIMP!!! Glad he made it back into civilization. . .  What a tough lil' guy!


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## sarahspins

My frogs got a new friend 










He/she is albino and soooo tiny... smaller than some of my snails (which are Thiara Winteri - very similar to MTS, the bigger ones in this tank are about 1/2" long.. they're all mobbing the remains of an algae wafer tossed in for the otos)


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## LittleWatty

Be careful the albino may be an African Clawed Frog instead of a Dwarf! Sometimes ACF are sold as albino ADF. I believe (but I'm not 100% sure) that the biggest difference when they're young is that the ACF don't have webbing on their front feet. Chesh and Gizmo would know better than me. Pretty sure Gizmo had an actual albino ADF too.


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## sarahspins

It has webbed front feet - so definitely an ADF


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## Chesh

SO tiny and PINK! LOL! Yeah, I think Gizzy had/has an albino one also, I've never seen them around here before - ADORABLE!


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## LittleWatty

Awesome! I wish our Petco had albinos. All they've got are ACF. Ah well. I'll have to make due by squeeing at how cute yours is!


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## sarahspins

BTW, I have to admit that I am terribly amused that the itty claws on the back feet are still black.. in my head I'd think that no pigment would make those more transparent as well ;-)

Also, on it's head, where my other frogs have a darker patch, it has a white patch, and it looks decidedly brain like... so this frog is now known as.. _The Brain_ :-D (the others are Freckle, Spots, and Pebbles.. we had a Rocky too but he committed froggy suicide when I left the feeding door open on the tank and we found his tiny little dried up body on the floor) I admit I'm not super creative and my kids helped with those names, so at least I got to name one of them now


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## LittleWatty

Froggie suicide is depressing  but The Brain is an awesome name XD I'm not too terribly creative either... my older frogs are named Skinny and Tubby for the exact reasons you would guess... My new ones only have more "unique" names because a friend of mine told me to name them after the Hobbit when she found out I had dwarves! I'm tempted to give my fish in the same tank the nickname Bilbo, Gandalf, or Thorin XD


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## Chesh

Haha, love the names! The Brain. . . next one should be Pinky  LOVING the Hobbit theme, too, *giggle*

Mine are Freckles, Speckles, and Spot. Speckles was named by my lil' girlies because of the toddler song - "5 little speckled frogs, sitting on a speckled log, eating the most delicious flies *YUMYUM* one jumped into the pool where it was nice and cool, now there are 4 speckled frogs" . . . yeah. Lol! The other two kind of just got named to 'match' Heehee. I luff frogums. 

**Technically Speckles' name is "Speckles Too" Because our first original ADF passed recently. When we got the newbies, my littlest (2 years old) said "Mommy, I think she should be named Speckles, too!" So, Speckles Too she is - and I suspect that every female ADF I ever own will be named in the honor of my original gal. I miss that lil' brat. . . she was so sweet. . .


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## LittleWatty

Daww  *hugs* Specks will forever be enshrined in this thread, and in the memory of those who knew her!


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## sarahspins

Chesherca said:


> I suspect that every female ADF I ever own will be named in the honor of my original gal.


That's awesome.. like Snowball (the cat) on the simpsons 

I am laughing so hard that we have two frogs with (almost) the same name though.. it makes me wonder how many others there are out there!


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## SpookyTooth

<Sneaks into topic>

<Squees>

<Sneaks back out>

(Sorry I haven't been around. _Loving_ all the photos and updates!)


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## Lizdu

Hi y'all! Just giving an update on Mr. Froggy, definitely in line with you guys in the creativity department.  I hadn't even considered The Hobbit for names, and I love that entire series. I love my little Froggy, and an considering getting another two. That is if the hubs will let me.  He's doing wonderfully, Mr. Froggy that is. He's growing, and I've seen him shed his skin. Rainbow, the Betta, seems to be bonding with him. Froggy will 'hide' under the anubias lava rock, and Rainbow leans against it. Like he's fully hiding him. They don't nip at each other or flare, so I'm not too concerned. I do have a question though. How are you able to add more than one picture per post? I have the most difficult time doing so.


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## LittleWatty

Good to hear all's going well Lizdu! If you get two more ADF, you'll have to make sure to quarantine them for 3 months. Your current frog or the new frogs may be hiding the nasty Chytrid fungus, which has a 3 month life span. This is why I'm keeping my new babies and my oldies separate. I know my oldies are clean, but the babies might have it. 

As for adding pictures, just use the "Manage Attachments" button on the advanced post page. Choose your first file, upload it. When its uploaded (it'll start a list), do the same thing again with the second picture. Repeat as many times as necessary. If your internet is slow, it'll take a while for the pictures to actually upload, but they'll get there.

Sparky! Long time no see!


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## Lizdu

Thanks LittleWatty. I was planning on getting a new tank just for the two new froggies. I'll have to try that again with the pictures. Everytime one is uploaded, the new one I upload replaces it. Strange me thinks.


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## LittleWatty

Huh. I've only had that happen if the pictures have the same name, so that might be your problem? My pictures are automatically named 001, 002, 003, etc. when I upload them to my computer, and they're separated into different folders that my camera creates based on the date. If I try to upload a 001 from folder 2/3/13, then I try to upload a 001 from the folder 2/5/13, the second picture replaces the first. That's the only thing I can think of.

Also, are you making sure you hit "upload"? If you just open the picture, they'll replace each other every time.


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## LittleWatty

Gah, another double post XD

Everything's going well on my end. Fili is crazy active while Kili tends to hide most of the day. He always gets me worried until I suddenly see him swimming around. Skinny and Tubby have officially laid claim to Leo's cave! He used to always sleep in there at night, but over the past couple days he's been sleeping in various other places... and then I'll find Tubby hiding in the cave! Both of my oldies have been hiding out during the day for the most part, but I think they're getting used to the place since I've been seeing a lot more of them today.


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## Chesh

Watty, you should totally set up a thread in the photography area of the forum dedicated to your froggums! They're soooooooo cute!!!


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## LittleWatty

I may just have to, since I have so many photos XD I've taken so many more than I've posted here. Then I can stop flooding the thread lol


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## Chesh

Flood the thread all you like! But it would be cool to see a full thread devoted to your tank(s), frogs, and fish. That's just me - I LOVE watching people's tanks grow on their journal pages


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## LittleWatty

I used to post pictures all the time on my Facebook... I had an album for each fish tank. But I got out of that habit a long time ago. Now I'll have to catch up on everyone else!

BTW... I still absolutely LOVE your 55 gallon. What floating plant do you have in there?


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## Chesh

Thank you - I'm kind of in love with it, too  My Rams just spawned *SOOOO EXCITING!* I have WaterSprite, mostly, but also Frogbit and some Duckweed. . .


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## LittleWatty

I saw! That's extremely exciting! Hope everything goes well! I may have to see about getting some floating plants for my froggies. I think I've heard they love riccia too?

(btw, start of that photography thread in my sig  )


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## Chesh

YAY, thread!  YES! My babies LOVE LOVE LOVE Riccia - but they like any floating plants, really. Just always seem to _extra_ enjoy getting all floaty with a nice thick mat of Riccia!


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## LittleWatty

Next time I have money to buy plants, I'll have to see about getting some! The 15 is a little bare for my liking, so it could use some more plants...  Plus, when my bettas are gone, I'll be combining all of my tanks into one giant 55 gallon (what can I say, you've inspired me!), and the more plants I have, the better! Of course, it'll be a few years before that happens. All of my fish are pretty young and healthy. I can just see it now... 5 frogs in one tank, on top of all the other fish I've wanted to get my hands on!


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## Chesh

lol, that'll be fun! So far Specks is doing GREAT in community. A bit of a pain to get him fed, but. . . meh, not that big of a deal when armed with fingers up to the armpit or a turkey baster  He's cute, and definitely adds another dimension of awesome to the tank, and he really seems to be having a WONDERFUL time in there! Perhaps the other 2 will end up in there with him eventually. I haven't figured that one out yet. I'm pretty bottom-dweller heavy, but I feel bad for him all alone. The other two are still too new to be trusted yet, and one is in the Kindy tank anyway. . .


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## LittleWatty

True, true... h'm... I'd probably just put them in there anyway (except maybe the kindy tank frog) because I just love them that much, hehe.


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## LittleWatty

Tubby is MIA  I haven't seen since I last fed them (about 3 days ago, had to fast Leo and I didn't want him getting their food), even when I do my nightly check-in when the lights have been out for a few hours. I just spent the last 20 min checking every nook and cranny, but he's nowhere to be found >.< I'm going to be feeding Skinny tonight in a few hours, so I'm hoping he shows up then... I would just like to know where he's hiding so I can make sure he gets some food.


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## Chesh

Oh no! Tubby! I hope you find him soon, safe and sound and happily hidden somewhere. This isn't the first time he's pulled a disappearing act, so hopefully all is okay.

I've never lost any of my frogs. . . though I can see how it could happen, lol! I 'misplace' them from time to time, but I always find them pretty quickly - as often as not they were out in the open practicing how to be a plant. Amazing how GOOD these babies are at camouflage and hiding in plain sight.. 

Specks in the Kindy tank likes to hide in the rock pile, which drives me nuts because I don't have a lot of time to feed him before class starts. Usually he comes right out when he smells food in the water, though. . .

It must be sooo nerve-wracking when you don't see one of your buddies for days on end. . . he's probably giving you the silent treatment for with-holding his dinner! . . . like a fat kid and cake!
I hope The Tubster is found soon. . . please let us know! I'm worried for him!


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## LittleWatty

Last night was a complete and utter pain in my frog world >.<

Well, after a paranoid night's sleep, I um... put together a "search party" and tore apart the 15 gallon XD Considering it had been 4 days since seeing him this morning, I was really frantic about finding him. He'd never been missing this long, and he's never missed a feeding! After about 10 min, I found him. He had wedged himself into some crevice inside the resin tree stump. He wasn't stuck or anything, just showing me why he's the world champ at Hide n' Seek. Put the tank back together in about an hour. First thing I reconstructed was the cave on the right, and I immediately moved the frogs in there so they'd be more comfortable while I put the rest of the tank together (and I wouldn't be worried about falling gravel injuring them). Skinny loves pretending she's a plant. Sometimes she even makes me jump a little when there's sudden movement out of the corner of my eye XD 

Then, as I was feeding them last night, Tintri decided to be an absolute PUNK (using kinder words than I did last night). I always cup him, put a top on, then float him in his tank while I feed the frogs. especially now that he's with newbies. However, last night he pulled a Houdini. SOMEHOW he got out of his cup (which had a top on it that didn't fall off!) and ate ALL of the food I left for the frogs. Gah >.< Fattest I've seen him since I started the cup routine. Hoping my babies got some food, since I put a little in the log they like to hide in.


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## Chesh

So glad you found him!!! I'd have torn the tank apart after 4 days, too - I'd have torn the tank apart after one, since I've never lost a frog, lol! I'm just glad he's okay. Are you going to screen off the bottom of the ornament to keep him out of it? Or just keep in mind that he's a punk and likes to hide there. . .

Frecks has a wonderful time pretending to be a plant, too - and in the 55g. . . there's a LOT of plants to choose from! He also enjoys pretending to be a piece of driftwood and masquerading as rocks, lol. They really are AMAZING at hiding in plain sight, little ninja frogs - their coloration is somehow perfect to blend in with anything, even though they don't actually match, and you can see the way they do their zen thing - it really puts them at those . . .naturally odd angles and allows them to really pull off becoming one with the plants, love it!

Dunno if any of you visit my 55g thread, but I put a video up the other day of the rams defending their nest. Some silly frog footage in there, especially in the beginning, you can see my confused parents pushing him out of their way as he comes too close to the nest and pulls an 'I'm not here, I'm ZEN!' move. . . too cute!


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## LittleWatty

Something's wrong with Kili!  I walked over to put my breakfast bowl in the sink, and saw him floating at the surface, legs sprawled out. The current was moving him slowly around, until it brought him back to the outflow of the filter. I expected him to react to the sudden shift of speed, but he didn't... he just floated there, going with the flow... His eyes were glazed over, and when I nudged him he didn't move. I picked him up, and it seriously looked like he was dead! He wasn't moving what so ever. I put him down on one of my cups (I use them to take back dead fish), and I thought I saw him move... I sat there for a little while, but he didn't move again. So I nudged him gently, and he weakly moved his arms.

Since then, he's moved a little bit, and I put him in the cup with a little water and some java moss. He's floating in the cup in the tank, but doesn't look to be doing good  I don't know what to do. He's been eating, and I've seen him shed his skin. I don't know what could have happened!

Edit: didn't see the video, looking now though. Need a serious pick me up >.<


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## Chesh

OH NO! *cries* Poor Kili. . . assuming that the water parameters are good, and it doesn't sound like bloat, or an injury - I don't know what to tell you. Kili is still fairly new, so it's possible that he came home with an illness that is just now getting the better of him. ADF are tough little critters, but when they do get sick, they get really sick, really fast, and it's hard to turn it around. I wish I knew what to tell you to do, but I think you're doing everything you can already. I really hope he's okay *worries* Maybe just a lil' R&R in the cup will help him feel better. . .


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## LittleWatty

I sent Gizmo a message looking for help as well, but right now I've just got him floating in there with the lights off. Fili seems fine, moving around like nothing's wrong, so I'm hoping he doesn't have it too. They're going on two weeks now, so I was hoping the worst was past  Kili has moved a little more, and is less sprawled out. He pulled in his legs a bit, but is still just floating there.


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## Chesh

I hope Gizzy can help, too. . . poor little baby.


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## LittleWatty

Kili's gone  I checked him before I left for work, and the cup just smelled like death. Sigh... Fili seemed ok before I left for work (though, he was trying to be by Kili the whole time! It was so depressing!). Hoping he'll be ok... I'll be so depressed if I lose both!


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## Chesh

I'm so sorry, hon. . . *hugs* If it's any consolation to you (which I know it probably isn't), there was probably nothing you could have done for her. . .*cries* So sad. . . she was such a cutie-pie.


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## LittleWatty

Yeah... and they were so healthy looking too. At least I know I'll have a frog coming in from my friend who is already a few months old. I don't know if he's hit the 3 month mark yet for quarantine, but its probably been at least 2.


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## LittleWatty

Because there is no Kili to my Fili, I'm going to start calling him Fleck. I think I like that more, anyway. No more naming pets after characters in books. Should never have done it to begin with XD


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## sarahspins

I'm so sorry for your loss! Even giving them silly names doesn't always protect them


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## LittleWatty

Well, its not just that they're characters from a book, but I didn't want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't read the Hobbit!

Been cheering myself up with my other frogs. No new pics of Flecks, but I've got some of Skinny from feeding this morning. She was just a hoot XD She managed to get herself flipped over on her back, then couldn't get back over! I had to flip her over with the turkey baster, and considering she associates it with food, she kept trying to bite at it while I was attempting to flip her over! Then everyone decided to join in on the food (even though they had already been fed!)


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## LittleWatty

Got my friends frog today! He looks healthy, and she's had him for over 3 months. He's also been in a quarantine of sorts for about a month, so I don't think I'll have to worry about worms. Still, I'm going to keep him in his own tank for about 2 weeks. Just to make sure all fish worms are out of his system, and that he doesn't have any other nasty stuff.

And on a totally random note that has nothing to do with fish or frogs or anything aquatic (other than it needing water) look at my new gorgeous Vanda Orchid! (I've got more pictures, but I'm going to only send them via PM request since its not fish related)


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## Chesh

Pretty flower, and a cute lil' frog! I know he's gonna be happy there!


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## ashleigheperry

I've always wanted an ADF - they're so cute!


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## LittleWatty

Gargoyle has been set up in his temporary 3 gallon tank, and has been singing like crazy! He's so vocal! Tubby never sang this much. It was 3 in the afternoon when he started yesterday, and he kept going until about 8 in the morning! And its so LOUD. He's in my bedroom, and I can hear him in my living room!


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## Chesh

Happy boy! That's awesome. . .


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## LittleWatty

Skinny is packing on the pounds now!  I've been hand feeding my frogs for the past few weeks, since Leo has caught on to my other Techniques. Tubby is the only one who won't take food from my hand, but he'll take it from the turkey baster so he's still getting fed. Just not as easily as the other two.

And meet Gargoyle! He's so pale compared to the other two, but he seems healthy so I'm thinking its just the way he is.


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## Chesh

YAY! I'm so glad to hear he's doing well. I've been waiting for an update on your thread! Could be he's just younger than the others, though coloration (even in the same type of frog) really does vary quite a bit from frog to frog from what I've seen/kept. What a_ CUTIE_ he is! I'm so happy that he managed to find such a wonderful home with you. I love hand-feeding, it's really the easiest (and most fun) way for me - especially when they're in a community tank (as all of mine are, now for various reasons - though I still think species-only is best!)


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## LittleWatty

He's definitely not much younger... when they were in a smaller tank together, he tried to get it on with Skinny, only to grab Tubby instead! XD He's about the same size as Tubby too. I'm definitely guessing its just his coloration, as it hasn't changed what so ever since I got him. He's also more of a grey, where all my other frogs are more of a brown. Ah well.

I know I've been slacking with my picture thread XD I've just been so busy with school lately that any time I'm near my tank I'm either on my way to bed, or feeding everyone, so I don't have a second to take pictures. This last batch was right around feeding time on a slow day.


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## LittleWatty

Random thought of the day... a grouping of frogs is an "army" so I officially have an army of frogs!


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## Chesh

Yeeesssss!!! Take over the world, Wat! Take over the world!!! *mwahahaha*

They look similar enough that I'd call your babies variations of the same, but I can only see through your pictures. There are several types of frog that fall into the generic 'African Dwarf' common name. I've kept two of them, and they looked very, very different. . .


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## Kels

Would keeping two in a 2.5 g for the QT time be to small? I had wanted to put two in with my female batta But only have a 2.5 tank to QT them in.


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## Chesh

I think you could get away with a 2.5g tank for the initial QT period, provided you were very on top of maintaining water quality - but for anything longer I'd say 5g minimum. . . 'long' not 'tall' 

To clarify, if the frogs have been kept with fish, you'll want to keep them in QT for a period of at least one month to ensure that they aren't 'carrying' anything that could be harmful to fish. This would be by association, as ADF don't typically become infected by the same pathogens that would affect fish. They can *happen* to have picked up fish parasites that can't use them as a host, but can 'hitchhike' in on their skin, water from the shop, or internally - having been ingested with or as food.

IF you get the two frogs at separate times, you will want to QT the second arrival for a period of 3 months, because frogs can be infected with the Chytrid fungus, which can take as long as 12 weeks to manifest, and almost always kills - but doesn't affect fish. I'd recommend that you purchase both frogs at the same time to keep things simple, as you will have to be VERY careful to keep the tank and supplies (buckets, siphons, nets) entirely separate during the QT period.

Hope this helps?


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## Gizmobettafish1

I have two ADF's that I have had for about 6 months. I have two dalmatian mollies in a 5 gallon tank. Does anyone have any suggestions if I should give the ADF's a bigger tank and put them with the mollies in the 5 gallon tank?? would they get along? I read that the mollies are top feeders and omnivores and the ADF's are bottom feeders, so they should be compatible?


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## Chesh

Mollies are too big for that five gallon tank, but it would suit your ADF perfectly! I'd move the Mollies into a larger tank, or re-home them, and just let the frog live in there.  If the tank was large enough, they should get along well enough, but you'd have to target feed the frog - Livebearers are greedy, and frogs eat slowly.


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## Gizmobettafish1

Thank you so much Chesherca! The pet store man was trying to sell me FOUR mollies today for my 5 gallon tank!! Good thing I did not take up that option!! I am going to try to give them a bigger tank and keep the ADF's in the five gallon tank!


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## LittleWatty

Found Fleck/Fili dead when I got home from my parents today  Pretty sure it was probably Chytrid, since its within a few week or so of the 3 month mark when I bought him and Kili. Now I'm just hoping that I didn't inadvertently get it in my other tank, since I feed my frogs at the same time. I always feed the oldies first (just in case the others had chytrid), but even when Tintri had camallanus and I was careful, my other fish got it too (both Leo and Faelican ended up with it after 4 months). So... I don't know. I'd be devastated if I lost Skinny and Tubby too  I'd be sad if I lost Gargoyle, but not as much as my other two.


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## Chesh

I'm so sorry, Watty! I know the feeling. . . hopefully whatever it was has been contained to the tank he was in. Why do you think it was Chytrid? Was he showing symptoms of this illness?


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## LittleWatty

I don't know the exact symptoms, but he seemed perfectly healthy and was eating fine. My tanks are clean, and I've seen no other issues with any of my frogs. When Kili died, I didn't know what it was, and I just accepted it. But after getting some emails from that ADF group on Yahoo, someone was describing the symptoms their frog had, and another person said it sounded like chytrid. They were eerily similar to what happened to Kili, so I thought that was probably it. It made sense to me too, considering I never know if my Petco frogs have it or not. There's also the fact that the 3 month mark is within a week. He was so close to the end of the quarantine. He had been spending some time at the top of the tank, but that was always a little normal for him. He seemed to like it up there once and a while. But lately it was happening more. He was fine on Friday, and I left before noon yesterday. When I found him, it looked like he had been dead several hours. So, whatever took him it got him in less than a day. He was bloated, but that could have just been the bloat that happens to things that die in warm environments.


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## popcorndeer

can someone help me get my little girl frog to eat? i want to put her in the tank with popcorn but she wount eat you can almost see her bones


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## LittleWatty

First off, what are you feeding her? Secondly, have you tried hand feeding her? (using either tweezers or your fingers).

Also, I have to ask... how big is Popcorn's tank? The ones in your pictures don't seem much more than a gallon or two, which would be way too small for both an ADF and a Betta.


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## popcorndeer

popcorn is getting a 5gal in the mail 


and iam feeding her hikari frozen blood worms


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## Chesh

*Watty*, sorry I got distracted from responding to you. It's always best to_ behave_ as if Chytrid is the culprit, in any case, just to protect the other frogs and the outside environment.  Please keep us posted on how the others are doing. Why haven't you been back to your journal??! I was excited for it!

*PCD* - how long have you had her, and as Watty asked - have you tried hand-feeding, or using tweezers/pipette to target feed? Is the tank cycled? If not, how often are you preforming water changes, and can you post up the water parameters?


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## LittleWatty

PCD - 5 gallon may still be a little small, but so long as you keep up with the water changes you should be ok. Has the frog eaten the bloodworms before and suddenly stopped, or is she rather new and hasn't taken any food at all?

Chesh - Its finals week right now, and I'm leaving the country soon for a family vacation XD I just get so distracted! I do have some pictures that I'm planning to put up before I leave. My other frogs hide most of the day, unless Skinny and Gargoyle see me near the tank. Though I've been in my room studying more lately, so they may have gotten used to seeing me and aren't as interested as they used to be *shrug* I'll try to get a bunch of new ones up for you before I go!


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## popcorndeer

no i got her for easter and was eating fine then when her friend i got with her for easter died she stoped eating


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## Chesh

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. . . Easter wasn't that long ago, she's still within the QT window for some illnesses to present. . . hopefully this is something simple that we can figure out together. . .

How long has it been since she's eaten, and how often/how much were you feeding her before?

Is there any way you can get water parameters so we can rule out water quality? It's one of the most common reasons for a frog to stop feeding. . . 

Are there ANY other signs of illness that you can see: Is she spending a lot of time at the surface, compared to before. How does her skin look - is it ragged and peeling? Any bloating? Any redness? 

ANY chance you can get a picture posted up so we can see what she looks like?


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## popcorndeer

her skin looks like its peeling


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## LittleWatty

It could be that she's shedding her skin naturally, they do do that. Is there anything else you've noticed that's maybe "off" about her, other than the eating and the skin? Has she been hanging around the top of the tank a lot, things like that?


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## popcorndeer

no just what other frogs do (she is the only frog i had for more then 10 days)


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## Chesh

Would you mind taking a look back through my and Watty's posts, and see if you might be able to provide a few more answers to the questions we've posted? I know we asked a lot, but frogs are really difficult to diagnose. . . If we can't get any more information, I'm sorry, but it's going to be pure guesswork in trying to figure out what may be wrong. . . We'd really like to help, but we need a bit more to go on, please.


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## katydidmischief

Hey guys, I had an outbreak of fungus in my tank--two of my otos have cotton heads--so, without thinking, I put API fungus cure in my tank. And then thought "Wait, idiot, what about the frogs?" Found out it's toxic and immediately dove into my tank, fishing them both out by hand because I was panicking (and took apart half my tank to catch the boogers). They had all of three minutes exposure to it, but I'm concerned. :/


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## LittleWatty

If they were only exposed for a few minutes, I would think they should be alright. They're tough little buggers. Just keep them in another tank and keep the water as clean as possible. I've never had a situation like yours, so maybe Chesh will have a better answer for you.


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## popcorndeer

my little girl somehow found a way to get out of the tank i cant find her and know she is probley dead by now      

S.I.P little girl  i love you


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## popcorndeer

i feel so bad now


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## Chesh

Katydid. . . I think what Watty said is all you really can do. Hopefully clean water will be enough, it sounds like their exposure was minimal - please keep us updated on how they're doing. . . 

Popcorn. . . Sorry for your loss.


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## popcorndeer

iam hopeing she is alive but they need water so being without water for 8 hours she is probley dead


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## popcorndeer

iam going to go look for her agian


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## LittleWatty

Are you sure she got out of the tank? They're pretty tricky hiders. I thought I had lost one of my males, but he had found the smallest pocket to hide in, and I had to tear apart the tank to find him. If you've already done that... then I'm sorry


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## popcorndeer

no shes gone


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## popcorndeer

i just found her! a bunch of frog bones on my bedroom floor


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## LittleWatty

That's horribly depressing, I'm so sorry  If you get another frog, remember to keep them in a tank that has a lid on it - one that can be closed securely. I've never had a frog get out, but I can imagine how you feel and I wouldn't want that to happen again!


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## Destinystar

So very sad and I am so very sorry popcorndeer...Hugs ! Yes I would agree since these little guys can jump I would really get a lid on any tank you keep them in.


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## popcorndeer

yah petsmart has them for 3.99 so i might get 1 or 2 tomorow

i relly miss my frog


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## popcorndeer

and the tank has a lid so i dont know how she got out


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## Destinystar

You may never know popcorndeer how she got out, animals can be very tricky like that and its always so very sad when things like this happen. Best we can do sometimes is give them the most proper care we can and love them while they are with us and keep them in our hearts when they are gone.


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## Chesh

I'm sorry. . . I *guess* it's good that you know for sure what happened. . . 

We never did figure out if she was sick. . . there are some illnesses that can cause a frog to really TRY to get out of the water. I'd think you'd have noticed other symptoms if this was the case, but. . . you're new to frogs, right? It can be_ really_ difficult to know what to look for when you're still getting used to what 'normal' is to these guys. . . 

If you decide to get another frog, be sure to look at the frogs in the tank very closely before deciding to bring one home, judge their health, ask questions - figure out what they've been feeding them at the shop, so you know what they're used to. Don't purchase any frog from a tank in which you see any evidence of sickness or death, and NEVER attempt to ‘rescue’ a sick frog. . .frogs are usually pretty tough little guys, as Watty said. *usually* illnesses are brought about by poor water quality, so if you haven't been, it's a good idea to keep an eye on those parameters. 

Good luck, Popcorn. If you get a new baby, be sure to stop in and let us know!

I'm so sorry, again, to hear of your losses.


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## Chesh

Katydid - 

How are your little frogs doing? I hope they, and your sick Ottos, are well?


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## popcorndeer

i think tomorow iam going to make a cute little froggy home with 2 covers!


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## Chesh

popcorndeer said:


> i think tomorow iam going to make a cute little froggy home with 2 covers!


Two covers, eh?! _That's_ the spirit. . . One has always served me well enough, lol. . . just make sure to tape up all of the little gaps in between - like where the heater wires and filter slip into the tank. Frogs can be escape artists. . . unfortunately, once out of the water they are only able to live for around 15 minutes, max, so it's good to be as careful as possible. They're small enough to fit out of the tiniest hole.
Good luck!


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## Skyewillow

Chesherca said:


> NEVER attempt to ‘rescue’ a sick frog


^ very solid advice, because not every sick frog is able to be rehabilitated, and unless you're completely prepared for some heartbreak, and until you have some good experience in frog care, it's better to get the healthiest frogs available!

I have some experience with raising frogs, and I wasn't able to save both of the ADF's I "rescued" a month ago. Fortunately one of them wasn't as bad off as the one who didn't make it. She's chubby and happy now.

What kind of lid was on her tank? like bettas, frogs will squeeze through any hole that they can fit through! And you'd be amazed at how tight of a squeeze that they can manage!


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## LittleWatty

And they're tricky little buggers! Just remember - sometimes if you can't find them, they're actually in the tank still. They're just amazing at finding hiding spots.

Edit: As a side note to really commend how tight a hole bettas can fit through. Fleck was in a tank with just him, a snail, and my HMPK male Tintri. When I fed Fleck, I put Tintri in one of the Petco betta cups until my little frog was finished eating (otherwise, the betta would eat everything). One day, I did the same thing I usually did, and then left the tank alone for about an hour. I came back, and fount Tintri as fat as could be, and OUTSIDE his cup. There was a top on it, but the cup had turned upside down in the flow of the filter, and he wiggled out of the tiny hole in the center.


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## popcorndeer

i wish my frog was still in the tank


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## popcorndeer

LittleWatty said:


> And they're tricky little buggers! Just remember - sometimes if you can't find them, they're actually in the tank still. They're just amazing at finding hiding spots.
> 
> Edit: As a side note to really commend how tight a hole bettas can fit through. Fleck was in a tank with just him, a snail, and my HMPK male Tintri. When I fed Fleck, I put Tintri in one of the Petco betta cups until my little frog was finished eating (otherwise, the betta would eat everything). One day, I did the same thing I usually did, and then left the tank alone for about an hour. I came back, and fount Tintri as fat as could be, and OUTSIDE his cup. There was a top on it, but the cup had turned upside down in the flow of the filter, and he wiggled out of the tiny hole in the center.


 
thats happend with deer!


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## jlllm

Is it normal for the frogs to eat plants?? Mine nibble on plant roots and they get into the java moss like kids in a candy store.


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## NeptunesMom

Can you use IAL with an ADF in the tank? Does anyone happen to know if snails and shrimp can be in a tank with IAL?


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## Chesh

jlllm said:


> Is it normal for the frogs to eat plants?? Mine nibble on plant roots and they get into the java moss like kids in a candy store.


Jlllm. . . my frogs have always been kept in planted tanks - that's five frogs over a year and a halfish or so, and I've never seen one nibble on a plant (unless it was 'hunting' for food and accidentally got a mouthfull)! Doesn't mean it can't happen, though! Maybe one of the others has seen this before. . . sorry I can't be of more help!



NeptunesMom said:


> Can you use IAL with an ADF in the tank? Does anyone happen to know if snails and shrimp can be in a tank with IAL?


Neptune's Mom. . . I have never had a problem with ADF in a tank with either IAL or snails - I've kept them with MTS, Apple/Mystery, and Nerites. There is a_ very slight_ possibility that something crazy could happen - I saw a thread once where an Apple/Mystery snail startled and closed on a frog's foot - but that doesn't seem to be the norm, lol! They should be fine together. I don't know about shrimp, haven't kept them yet! Shrimpies are on my future fish (and other critters) list!

Hope that helps!


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## NeptunesMom

Thanks. Yes, it did help.


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## Skyewillow

Chesherca said:


> I saw a thread once where an Apple/Mystery snail startled and closed on a frog's foot


might've been a thread of mine, I posted something about my male Clawed frog who got his foot stuck in my trapdoor's shell and panicked. (I had to "save" him.)

Aside from that, my ADF is kept in a planted tank with nerites, my trapdoor, and some MTS.

Also, I picked up another ADF today. She's skinny, but not sick. The others couldn't sink and were severely emaciated, and I don't think I could handle them dying on me, so as much as I hated to leave them there, I had to. She doesn't have a name yet.


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## jlllm

Popcorndeer; I'm sorry about your frog. I always fear that one sneaks out in the night and freaked out because I couldn't find one anywhere once. I have the filter hole saran wrapped and taped as the hole is excessively large. I have only had frogs since Easter.


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## djembekah

I haven't had a frog since Frogger died (my first and last frog who lives a week-i feel so bad!) I'd loveto try again but the only spot one could live is in my 5.5 with my betta (who does exceptionally well with tank mates) and 3 ghost shrimp. not sure if i should...but OH i want to!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NeptunesMom

So, I posted this in emergencies under the thread for my emergency, but since this is the ADF care page I decided to ask here to. 

Can an ADF get fungus from a betta? I exposed my ADF to my rescue that I thought was just stressed, but this afternoon I noticed a small white spot of fuzz on his side. I have removed my betta cupped him while I prep a hospital tank without a heater. If so, what would be the best course of action. Yes, I know I should QT (and normally I would've), but I looked him over very closely and he did not appear to have anything outwardly wrong with him. His color was even vibrant until this afternoon. I did not have a tank with a heater, and so I put him into the only tank I could with a heater that I thought would be safe. Everything i read online said fish and frogs have no diseases that can cross species, but I didn't see anything about fungus (and I guess I didn't even think of it since his color was good).


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## Chesh

My guess would be that fungal spores are fungal spores, and as such can affect anything in the tank - both fish and frogs alike. Just a guess, though. . . it could very well be that some are more prone to infecting fish than frogs - I'm not really sure!

I think your froggy should be okay, as long as he is healthy - with no wounds or abrasions, in clean water, and not under a lot of stress. . . In my understanding, various fungal spores are always to be found in any tank, it's only when the animal is under stress, as you say your betta is/was, that their immune systems falter and such things get the upper hand . . . I'd still do extra water changes to clear out any potential nasties - just to be as safe as possible - clean water can't cause any harm, for sure!

In the last year or so that I've been keeping them, I've lost only one of my frogs - my first. She had a few previous health concerns, and I made a few mistakes with her in the beginning. One day she got a really bad fungal infection, which I suspect was caused by past damage taking it's toll, though she had been fine for many months prior. I moved her into a QT/hospital tank, but in spite of all I did to treat her, she died. The other frog that shared the same tank was perfectly fine, and is now living happily in my 55. He had been kept well since I brought him home, and has always been a happy little boy. Not a fish/frog situation, but why I think that as long as he's healthy, your frog should be okay. . .

I wish I had something more concrete to offer you. . . hopefully one of the others will have come across a similar situation and can be of more help. I hope your betta recovers quickly. . .


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## NeptunesMom

Chesherca said:


> My guess would be that fungal spores are fungal spores, and as such can affect anything in the tank - both fish and frogs alike. Just a guess, though. . . it could very well be that some are more prone to infecting fish than frogs - I'm not really sure!
> 
> I think your froggy should be okay, as long as he is healthy - with no wounds or abrasions, in clean water, and not under a lot of stress. . . In my understanding, various fungal spores are always to be found in any tank, it's only when the animal is under stress, as you say your betta is/was, that their immune systems falter and such things get the upper hand . . . I'd still do extra water changes to clear out any potential nasties - just to be as safe as possible - clean water can't cause any harm, for sure!
> 
> In the last year or so that I've been keeping them, I've lost only one of my frogs - my first. She had a few previous health concerns, and I made a few mistakes with her in the beginning. One day she got a really bad fungal infection, which I suspect was caused by past damage taking it's toll, though she had been fine for many months prior. I moved her into a QT/hospital tank, but in spite of all I did to treat her, she died. The other frog that shared the same tank was perfectly fine, and is now living happily in my 55. He had been kept well since I brought him home, and has always been a happy little boy. Not a fish/frog situation, but why I think that as long as he's healthy, your frog should be okay. . .
> 
> I wish I had something more concrete to offer you. . . hopefully one of the others will have come across a similar situation and can be of more help. I hope your betta recovers quickly. . .


Thanks for the information. I think the frog (still going to call it Beatrix until I figure out if it's a boy or girl) is healthy. It comes out of it's cave in the evening, and stays out until probably 11:00. Then it disappears back into it's cave. It is a little bit chunker monker (I may still be figuring out how much to feed), but it swims around fine and explores when it's out and about. 

I just feel really awful. I think I exposed my other fish to it as well. There was a tornado that passed just north of us on May 19th, and I think I cross contaminated when I was frantically trying to grab fish. I guess when the sirens are sounding cross contamination is not what you are thinking of. It's a good lesson for the future though.


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## Chesh

Beatrix is a fantastic name, I love it! Usually the female frogs tend to be the chubbier ones, you can tell a male if you can spot a little white or pink 'pimple' just by its armpit. ^.^

I can't imagine what I'd do in a situation like that one - scary! Cross-contaminating tanks would have been the least of my worries at that moment, too. Hopefully it will be okay. Just up your water changes for a week or two - on all of the tanks - until everything clears up and settles down. I can't advise on how to treat a betta, but I'm sure you've gotten that info on the illness board.

Good luck, and try not to worry too much . . . *hugs*


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## Skyewillow

a lot of bacterial infections show up as a fuzz that looks like a fungus. A lot of fish fungal cures actually contain antibiotics. For a quick example, columnaris looks like a fungus at first, Tetracycline and Nitrofurazone are both antibiotics.

The frogs are prone to a fungus called Chytrid, that is very deadly for them. according to a link a frog friend sent me, there is treatment for it, but you'd definitely have to QT if you have inverts in the same tank.

Also, it's great news that Beatrix is eating! Huzzah!


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## NeptunesMom

Skyewillow said:


> a lot of bacterial infections show up as a fuzz that looks like a fungus. A lot of fish fungal cures actually contain antibiotics. For a quick example, columnaris looks like a fungus at first, Tetracycline and Nitrofurazone are both antibiotics.
> 
> The frogs are prone to a fungus called Chytrid, that is very deadly for them. according to a link a frog friend sent me, there is treatment for it, but you'd definitely have to QT if you have inverts in the same tank.
> 
> Also, it's great news that Beatrix is eating! Huzzah!


Good to know. Can they get Chytrid from fish? Or is it only frog to frog? She (based on Chesherca's description I'm going to say Beatrix is a girl since there's no pimple in the pit ) is eating like a little piggy. I put bloodworms on her plate turn around to get more, turn back and she's sitting in an empty plate with a look like "Human! Get me more!" I really wanted to get her a buddy, but decided since I didn't have anywhere to QT that was heated it would be unfair for the ADF. That was kinda the hope for Hidalgo (the betta) that he could be her buddy once he was feeling better. 

Chesherca: Thanks for the support. I just feel like if they get sick it's my fault for not taking more precautions. But, it's over and done with now. I went and picked up API Fungus Cure, API Erythromycin, Maracyn and Maracyn II. So, I figure I'm ready for whatever might come.


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## Chesh

Thanks for the input, Sky! 

To the best of my understanding, Chytrid doesn't look like a 'normal' fungus - I/E fuzzy white growth. Could be wrong, but that's not what I've read/seen in images?

How's your little rescue doing? It looks like he has a fuzzy patch in the picture? Or is that just a trick of the light? Hope all is well on his road to recovery!


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## Chesh

Neptune. . . lol. . . you've got the medicinal arsenal stocked and prepared for battle! Hopefully you don't have to use it, clean water is a very powerful thing ^.^

It sounds like your little girly is doing great, three cheers for chubby females with healhty appetites!

Chytrid does not affect fish, but it can be carried by them via their skin, water, or tank for a period of 3 months from introduction. Chytrid is the awful 'virus' we keep hearing about on the news, it's affecting frog populations to extinction world wide - not a pretty thing. If you DO decide to get another frog at some point, it's best to keep the newcomer in QT - it can take the illness 3 months to manifest, so you'll want to be sure not to cross-contaminate during that extended QT period. Cytrid *can* be treated, but it's a difficult thing to do. Hopefully not something you'll ever have to deal with.


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## Skyewillow

there was something floating in the water. looks like a flake of fish food, somehow? idk lol

She's still alive and kickin' though, and we've decided to name her Smidge.

Chytrid appears as a messy shedding of the skin. Normal sheds come off in mostly one piece, chytrid sheds look like those nasty little peels that come with a sunburn. You know, kind of tattered, and flaky? They also float (as in can't sink if they try), and try to get out of the tank. The other two were having buoyancy trouble, and one of them looked really, really rough. So it could've been Chytrid, or it could be a bad bacterial infection, I'm considering treating Smidge just in case.


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## Chesh

Glad to hear Smidge (fantastic name! Frog names are so adorable!) seems to be doing well so far! I really hope that Chytrid is in no way involved . . . may I ask how you plan to treat him, if you choose to do so? 

Thanks for the clarification, too. That was my understanding as well. . . no fuzzy fluffy fungus-looking stuff with Chytrid that I've ever seen (and thankfully I've never had to deal with this one in any of my babies). 

The virus feeds on the keratin that is inside the top layer of skin, without the Keratin, the skin thickens - and this is what causes the tattered and torn skin sheds. . .

All these poor frogs. . . Chytrid is such a vile thing. And so difficult to stop - especially among wild populations. *cries for the frogs*


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## Skyewillow

I'm not 100% sure that she's eating, but she's not getting any thinner, thankfully, she wasn't as bad as poor Pancake when we had gotten her! And there's not a ton of food in there. I just tried bloodworms, I don't think she recognizes them as noms.

Here's a wiki article on the disease, and if I do treat preemptively, I'll be trying one of these methods. I'm not sure which one though.

(Link button not working)
http://theaquariumwiki.com/Chytrid_fungus#Treatment


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## Skyewillow

here's a quick phone pic of Smidge, she's hanging out with me and we're watching Ghost Adventures.


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## Chesh

LOL! Pancake! Lovin' these names! I have Freckles, Speckles, and Spot - so named by my little ladies ^.^

Lamasil AC is the treatment that I've most commonly seen used with good results, but it takes a lot of back and forth and bleaching of the 'used' container tanks (usually critter keepers) I hear a rumor that that form of this med is no longer available, though? Haven't looked into it. . . I hope that's not true, because a lot of people have had success with it. Heat treatment is really difficult, too, as you can't ensure that the condensation at the top of the tank gets warm enough to kill the spoors - and the things are so tenacious. There is a Chytrid test available, but last time I looked into it, the cost was around $50 per test. It's just a disaster, truly. 

Where did you get your frog? It's totally normal, I'm sure you know, for them not to eat for a few days when they're in a new environment. Hopefully all is well. I'd be really leery of putting a frog through any treatment without being fairly positive that Chytrid is the cause. The flip side is that, with this illness, your best chance at survival is to move fast. It's such a double edged sword :/

ETA: Didn't see your post! She's so super cute! Looks like a fatty girl to MEEEEE!!! 

Hi, Smidge! *luffs*


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## Skyewillow

she's a little more curvy than she was on Sunday, so I'm convinced that she's eating some of the food I'm throwing at her lol

I was thinking of the dry out method, I have 4 different QT (critter keepers) that I can use between the fish/frogs, so it's no biggie to let one sit and dry for a while.

Our ACFs have boring names like Freddie, and the female's name is Frankie (we thought she was a boy too, but by the time we found out otherwise, it was stuck).

But Pancake has her own thread in the "finless friends" board, and I've been trying to keep it updated, she looks like a smushed ACF, and that's how we got the name Pancake. Smidge is because she's just a wee smidgeon of a thing! lol


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## Chesh

I LOVE journal and photo threads! Link me, please! I tend to hang on TFK, not so familiar with BF. Really should work on that, I know. . .lol!

I think Freddie and Franky are cute names, too. FROGS are cute. Their names are adorable by default *swoons for frogs*


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## Skyewillow

^_^ Freddie was actually a rescue too. He was severely emaciated.

here's Pancake's thread.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=145114


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## NeptunesMom

I saw Beatrix eat for the first time last night (normally, I just turn around to an empty plate). Wow, that girl can eat fast. I have been feeding her frozen bloodworms and one night I fed her brine shrimp (but that didn't seem to get eaten as quickly). I also have glasworms, do you think that is something she might like? I wanted to try to mix it up a bit. She refuses to eat frog pellets.


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## Chesh

Give it a try! Mixing it up is the _best_ way to go, in my opinion. My frogs don't seem to recognize pellets as food, either. . . at least, they didn't when they were new - I bet I could get them to eat anything from my fingers at this point if I tried! Greedy little things! Glad your girly is doing so well!


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## Skyewillow

NeptunesMom said:


> I saw Beatrix eat for the first time last night (normally, I just turn around to an empty plate). Wow, that girl can eat fast. I have been feeding her frozen bloodworms and one night I fed her brine shrimp (but that didn't seem to get eaten as quickly). I also have glasworms, do you think that is something she might like? I wanted to try to mix it up a bit. She refuses to eat frog pellets.


that's great! It's always worth a shot to try something new.


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## NeptunesMom

Okay, I have another question. Do ADF's eat ghost shrimp? I saw her snap at one a few nights ago, and I've noticed all my ghosties have disappeared (there were three). I know they are experts at hiding, but I have only seen one for about a week now, and that one has not been seen since a few nights ago. The shrimp and her were about the same size (all somewhere between 1"-1.5" in their bodies). I have several hiding spots for the shrimp, and they used to always hide in the plants. But, none are in there now. Beatrix on the other hand really never hides anymore. She's always out and about in the tank cruising along the bottom, and occasionally darting to the top for air.


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## Chesh

I'm honestly not sure about this one, hopefully someone else knows more. . . I'm still looking forward to keeping shrimp for the first time. My suspicion would be that they're too big. . . but I've seen frogs snap at ANYTHING that's moving, thinking it was food. So I suppose it's *possible,* though I'd imagine it would take them a while to eat an entire shrimp. . . and you'd see them looking really big in the belly, and probably refusing food, I'd think? Hopefully the ghosties are just hiding. 

REALLY glad to hear that little Bea is getting comfortable in her new home, and isn't being such a fraidy cat anymore. *GRINS* This makes me happy!


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## Skyewillow

I have Pancake in with Juvenile RCS, and she snaps if they bother her, but she hasn't tried eating them since they're no longer bite sized. Doesn't mean she can't, it's just my own experience.


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## NeptunesMom

Hmm... Well, I guess I will just have to wait and see if they pop up in the tank. I can't think of where they could be hiding as I've looked all over for them. Here is a pic of Miss Bea posing for me. Unfortunately, it's a little blurry because it's a cell phone photo.


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## Skyewillow

From what I can see, she's looking good!!

Oh, I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, I could be wrong.

I've noticed that in most photos of male dwarf frogs, they don't have that dark brown mask that you see on females. Am I crazy?


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## Chesh

I'm not sure about the 'mask.' I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, but I've always attributed it to different frog species being lumped into the common name of 'African Dwarf Frog.' ONE of my females looked like that - ALL of my other frogs, both male and female have looked slightly different, so I think they may be a different type of frog altogether. I could be totally wrong. . . I *think* that the three frogs I have now are Hymenochirus boettgeri, while my original female may have been Hymenochirus curtipes. I'm REALLY not sure about this, though. I've tried looking into it, but can't really find any information that concretely defines the differences between these two, and the other types of frogs sold under the common name. And I've looked! Almost everything online, even when they are given their proper names, interchanges the types, and I've never been able to track down any good scientific papers or books on the subject. I may have to see if I can ask Stuart to clarify. He wrote the Wiki articles, and keeps several species. I'm betting he would know. . . 

lol, sorry for the babble. Something I've always wondered about, obviously! If you have any info, I'd love to give it a read ^.^


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## Skyewillow

I asked on my ADF group on fb, there's a couple of breeders on there who should know.


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## Chesh

YAY! And hopefully they can give good comp shots, too! Thanks!!! ^.^


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## Skyewillow

On the flippers and fins page, this male is maskless too









well, for the most part, it's still by his ear region, but it's not on his eyes like their female.

and here's a list of some of the different ADF species.
Dwarf frogs


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## Chesh

Thanks for posting. *sigh* I've seen BOTH of these before. . . it helps to *some* extent, but . . . I still don't feel any clearer about it than I did before. Maybe it's just because we're seeing hybrids? And people need to take better pictures 

Still not sure about the mask, either. Did your FB group have any input there?


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## Skyewillow

not yet, I think I need to bug them again... -glares at FB group-

I didn't recognize any of those species as my girls either.


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## Skyewillow

this was too funny not to share!


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## Chesh

HAHAHA!

*luffs*

My first female looked very like yours  I miss that baby! Such a fat lil' froggy tum ^.^


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## LinkLover

So I have a question that I don't know if anyone can answer. Today, one of my African Dwarf Frogs went missing. My fiance looked at every inch of the tank and he's not there. The lid had a TINY opening, but I assume he must have gotten out anyway. He had been in that tank for over a year without any problems, and in fact we just got a new lid with an even tighter fit. If he has gotten out, does anyone know how far he would have been able to go before he died? I know that he isn't with us anymore, but it kills me not to be able to find him and bury him.  Any hints on where to look would also be appreciated.


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## Skyewillow

in frog logic, UNDER or BEHIND furniture is usually the first place they'll go.

I'm sorry for your loss. :-(

Which also reminds me. I regret to inform everyone that Smidge passed away the other day.


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## LinkLover

Ok thank you. Me and my fiance crawled around all over the floor, looking under furniture with flashlights and still nothing. But we will keep trying until we find him. Unfortunately, I just found his friend on his back in the tank, so now both my boys are gone... 

I'm sorry to hear about Smidge (I love the name).


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## Skyewillow

try along the wall in either direction. I'm trying to remember where Freddie (my ACF) liked to go when he could escape.

Thanks, I'm considering finding a breeder, rescuing is taking a toll on me lately.


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## LinkLover

Ok, we'll try that too. And I totally get what you mean about rescuing. It can get really overwhelming dealing with sickness and death all the time.


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## Skyewillow

I decided to clean Pancake's tank since I'm having trouble sleeping, and WHEW! She smells WORSE than the big frogs!


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## Chesh

So sorry to hear of both your losses. *cries*


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## jlllm

*Feeding time*

My betta eats the tadpole bites. He wont eat his own food and prefers the frogs!! AGGG


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## NeptunesMom

I found a research paper from the University of Colorado that found that crayfish carry the chytrid fungus for up to 12 weeks in their digestive tract, and that during this time they can infect frogs. However, mosquitofish (whatever that is) do not. I don't know if that helps me in my quest to answer if ghosties carry it, but I guess it's warning enough that I don't think I'll risk it.


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## Skyewillow

Mosquito Fish They're a livebearer, similar to guppies


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## MattsBettas

Who was Smidge?


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## Skyewillow

the other frog we had tried to rehabilitate


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## NeptunesMom

Skyewillow said:


> Mosquito Fish They're a livebearer, similar to guppies


Interesting. Well, just so you know... you can put them in with your ADF without fear of killer fungus. I'm really bummed about the ghost shrimp, because I could really use their cleaning skills. Maybe, I'll see if any of the other LFS in town keep them away from amphibians.


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## Skyewillow

NeptunesMom said:


> Interesting. Well, just so you know... you can put them in with your ADF without fear of killer fungus. I'm really bummed about the ghost shrimp, because I could really use their cleaning skills. Maybe, I'll see if any of the other LFS in town keep them away from amphibians.


the only downside is if you go to most shops, if they have those big rows of tanks, everything in them is connected via filtration. So, if their frogs are in even the same rack of tanks, I'd avoid it.

The store we prefer to shop at has the frogs in a pair of kritter keepers, no shrimp (just assassin snails and nerites), and the rest of their stock is mostly a set of stairs away.


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## Wynn

Question on the health of a frog.
My moms frog been in some bad shape, he just got transfered to a 20 gallon tank being previously in a 1 gallon tank. My mom is new to this so didn't do much research. He has been staying at the top nearly constantly. He isn't moving unless touched. He is room mate with a betta but they seem to get along. I not sure how much food he has been givin, he looks thin. My mom didn't buy speical food for him so they both get betta pellets. The 1 gallon tank would spike nitrate over night but it got a decent ammount of water changes, I suspect he is going to be dead soon I am wondering if there is any hope for this little guy?


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## Skyewillow

Your mom needs to get some food formulated for the frog, there's different requirements for each.

the crude fats, fibers, and proteins in my frog's ZooMed pellets are at a higher percentage than they are in my Omega One betta food.


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## Wynn

Skyewillow said:


> Your mom needs to get some food formulated for the frog, there's different requirements for each.
> 
> the crude fats, fibers, and proteins in my frog's ZooMed pellets are at a higher percentage than they are in my Omega One betta food.


If he is thin, not eating barly moving and constantly floting. Think there is much hope?
It is kind of sad that he goes south right after she gets the tank after him suffering though about 3 weeks of a 1 gallon with a betta :'(


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## Wynn

Bump out of ergency, We moved him to a 1 gallon tank and he went to the bottom, he is still lethargic and not eating but we left food at the bottom for him, though I supose it is possible he ate 1 bite and we missed it. We have been unable to get Frog food yet so we offered all we had which is the betta smallest pellet which is meaty.


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## jlllm

My frog died. Nobody would help me.


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## Wynn

jlllm said:


> My frog died. Nobody would help me.


My moms died too :'(
I have learned one main cardinal rule. Aquatic life is much harder to take care then the avarage person realizes.
If it helps http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=63525


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## Chesh

I'm sorry for your losses. . .


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## SnowySurface

I have a basic question because I over looked something while cycling and setting up my ADF tank. T_T

So far on my froggie check list I've 
-cycled the tank
-added live plants
-added a nerite snail for algae (and to look cute :3)
-noticed a pond snail invasion (why live plants....why? -_-)
-added floating plants so the light isn't always directly shining on the little guys
-will add drift wood once it's done soaking
-hiding spots
-food I will get when I get the little guys so it isn't going bad on a shelf. XD

So....after getting this far I just realized/remembered that ADFs don't like tall tanks. Therefore, before I drown any froggies by accident, is 12 inches too deep for a ADF to make it to the surface to breath? 

I can't post a picture of my set up because I am at work, but this is a link to a tank with reletively similar dimensions for reference.

Note: Sorry for your losses. I posted my question before reading any previous posts.


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## LittleWatty

12 inches is totally fine, so long as the current isn't strong. I've got 3 ADF in a 15 gallon tank that is at least 12" tall.


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## SnowySurface

Thanks. 

Hopefully I can get 2 ADF either this weekend or next week end. *crosses fingers*


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## LittleWatty

Hope so! I love these little buggers.


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## Skyewillow

I offer floating plants near the surface in my frog tanks, even if they're not too deep, they like to sleep in them and stay close to the surface. Or a betta hammock.


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## jlllm

I got 2 new adf yesterday as mine lost his buddy last week. should I quarantine? And I was thinking of getting 3 (tiny tiny) black ones the size of my finger nail from another petstore. Quarantine separate or together with new lot?


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## LittleWatty

Always quarantine frogs, and always quarantine them separately. Two frogs bought at the same time from the same place can be kept together, but frogs purchased from two different places should not. The risk of Chytrid is too great to keep them together.


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## jlllm

Are all the plants n fish contaminated too?


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## LittleWatty

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure. It is better to be safe than sorry when it comes to Chytrid.


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## jlllm

How long do they have to be quarantined


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## LittleWatty

At a minimum of 3 months. I realize that's a long time, but that's how long it takes for Chytrid to run its full course, and die off (if it is present in a tank). Once the 3 months passes, you know without a doubt that your frogs are clean.


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## jlllm

Thoughts on neon tetras and black skirt tetra school and adf?


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## LittleWatty

Always be careful when feeding your frogs if they are with other fish. More often than not, the other fish will try to eat the food for the frogs, so they might not get fed. I have that problem every time, so I've had to hand feed mine to guarantee they're eating. Other than that, the only real concern is tank size. You want to make sure you have plenty of room for everyone if you're adding schooling fish.


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## jlllm

I have 20 gallons but it's high.


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## NeptunesMom

I was at work today getting my new tank and substrate and I saw an ADF missing a foot. He was also covered in a white tattered like material. At first I thought it was a fungus, but then I decided he might be molting. I have a few questions 1) How can I tell if he's molting or if it's a fungus? 2) How would you treat him?


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## Chesh

Oh my goodness! I'm so sorry. . . I haven't really been on much lately - completely missed your question NM! Is he okay??!


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## NeptunesMom

Chesh said:


> Oh my goodness! I'm so sorry. . . I haven't really been on much lately - completely missed your question NM! Is he okay??!


I went to get him later that day, and he was gone. I asked if he was sold, and no one in pet care knew what happened to him. They didn't even know there was any ADF's in the tank at the time. We looked around the tank for him, but couldn't find him. I have no idea what happened to him. It was very strange, but I can only hope that somehow he found his way into a loving home.


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## Chesh

Poor thing! I hope he was okay. It could have been a shed - the two look very different, but that does happen... a bit will get 'stuck' for a bit until they chomp it off.  I hope he did, too!


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## djembekah

so Bekah's back with a new ADF. She's living in my 5.5 with my halfmoon Asher. Ash definitely seems to ignore her (just guessing female because she's chunky and i haven't noticed a pimply gland!). Lucy begged and begged for ages for a new frog, so i gave in!










First thing I've tried feeding her is a shrimp pellet. I know it's not really the best option, but I thought it'd be worth a try. She still seems scared of my hand. Next time I feed, I'll be digging out the frozen brine shrimp and attempt to target feed with an eyedropper... but bloodworms and frog and tadpole bites are really the best option right? should i pick that up next time i get paid?


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## LittleWatty

Hey Bekah! Congrats on the new frog! 

Shrimp should be totally fine. That's what I've been feeding mine for the past few weeks, now that they're in the big tank. Bloodworms, like with feeding bettas, are really best as just a treat since there isn't much nutritional value. If you can get her onto the pellets, that'd be great! But it doesn't hurt to mix up the food that you're giving her once and a while.


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## djembekah

Thanks! I will try picking up the actual frog bites soon too. I'm just nervous about her, since the other died a week after getting him. hopefully she takes to food soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NeptunesMom

The only thing my Beatrix will eat is frozen bloodworms, frozen glassworms and frozen brine shrimp. Her fav is the bloodworms, but she'll eat the others to "humor me".


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## djembekah

They're funny little guys for sure!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah

She's taken to the castle, lol.









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah

I know I'm posting a lot but frog ate brine shrimp tonight and has a round tummy  I'm very pleased! She's moving around more now.too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyewillow

in the castle photo she reminds me of the beast from the black lagoon. lol

Pancake started singing tonight.


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## djembekah

Lol!

Aww. is it fun to hear?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyewillow

a lot more pleasant than my clawed frog singing lol


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## Mar

Quick question.

Currently have 2 ADFs in my 5 gallon with my betta. They're both small, don't bother the betta and vice versa.

However, is 5 gallons too small? Should I move both frogs to my sorority? (10 gallons, 5 girls) 
Both the 5 gallon and 10 gallon are planted.

Thanks for the help.

Just for fun, here are some old pics of them:
I apologize in advance for the photo spam xD



Cute head popping out, I used to feed him through there:



Acrobat:



Round tummy:



Peeping:













I know there's a boy and girl.
I hear the boy singing at night all the time, and I have found their eggs. 

Girl's name is Haste, and I'm reconsidering the boy's name.


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## Mar

Orrrr should I separate the frogs and put them in 2 different 5 gallon tanks with a betta in each? I'm just worried about finding them and feeding them in the 10gallon. The females have met the frogs before and left them alone, so I'm not too concerned about that.


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## LittleWatty

Such cuties! Mar, you're definitely going to be better off keeping the frogs in their own tank. Not separate with a betta each, but together in a 10 gallon with no other fish (if you can). The 5 gallon is definitly too small for all three occupants, and I would be concerned with the sorority as well as the tank size there.


----------



## Chesh

THREE CHEERS FOR FROGGY PIC SPAM! ^.^ Sooooooo CUTE!!!

Mar, I agree with Watty - frogs always do best in species-only setups - and your other tanks are a bit too full. . . They are social creatures - though one frog can be kept on it's own, they do enjoy the company of others, so I wouldn't want to split the two. . . I'd be nervous about putting them in with the sorority in 10g, but you're right - your 5g is overstocked. Maybe time for a new tank!!!? They'd really LOVE a 10g all their own. :-D

Bek! I'm so happy to hear that she ate! THREE CHEERS for CHUBBY TUMMIES!!!

NM - they can be fussy eaters, neh? Mine have always been pretty good about it, but won't take pellets, OR KRILL! OMG, they HATE Krill. Pellets they don't even recognize as a food source, lol. . .


----------



## Mashiro

Could you safely keep 2 ADFs and a male betta (maybe snail too) in a 5 gallon Aqueon tank?


----------



## Mar

I do have an extra 10G lying around, but don't have the time and money (I binge back to school shopping) as of now to go out, buy materials, plant it, get proper bulbs, hoods. 
It'll probably be another couple months before I do so. I think what I'd do is get another tank and move my sorority to this, and the frogs can have the already planted 10G to themselves, maybe plus another.

Uuuugh, I had doubts about splitting them as well. 

Should I just try my luck with the sorority and monitor their behaviour?
The girls are really kind of mild mannered.


----------



## Mar

xD Mashiro, read above. I asked the exact same thing.


----------



## Mashiro

Whoops! XD


----------



## Chesh

A lot of people do keep ADFs in with Bettas in a 5g tank. I've kept frogs in a 5g setup before - 2 frogs, no betta. It's doable, but I wouldn't stock above 2 animals in a 5g - either one fish and one frog, or two frogs alone (species only is preferable, if possible). . . and even with that being said, the frogs absolutely love to have all the space they can get. So though I've SEEN a lot of people keep them in five gallons for extended periods of time, in my experience, they've been much happier since moving OUT of there. *crosses eyes* did that make sense?

Bottom line, three animals in a 5g, I really think is way to crowded, go with a 10 if at all possible. :/ 

Mar, its your call to make. . . and a bit of a tough one. I'm thinking yes, I'd probably move them into the 10g and keep a very close eye on both the fish and the parameters for a couple of months until you can get them into their own tank. Really appreciate your willingness to move them into a much more suitable environment for them  They will absolutely have a WONDERFUL time in the 10g. I've had mine in 29, and even 55g tanks, they can be really active and love to swim! Just be really aware and watchful of what's going on in there, and be sure the frogs get their fair share of food. 


Good luck, keep us posted on how things go - both of you!


----------



## Mashiro

Oh wait, it's okay to keep a lone ADF? I thought they were very social and needed a frog friend. If I can keep 1 ADF with my betta in the 5 gallon, that's what I'll do.


----------



## Mar

Okay, decided that I'm going to buy a larger aquarium, used, so it's cheaper. Move the sorority there, and the frogs will get the 10G. It should happen within this month or the next month. 

Thanks for all the help.


----------



## djembekah

I'm glad Frog ate too  everyone had fat tummies last night though!! brine shrimp for all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh

Sounds like good news all around ^.^ YAY!

Yup! They ARE social, but can be kept alone. They're frogs, not fish - don't NEED a shoal, but they do have fun with others of their kind. I have three in community right now, but one of them was on his own for several months before. He was fine on his own, but he's sure having a great time with his buddies 

Be very wary of the betta with the frog. I've never kept the two together, but most people report that it can really depend on the personality of the fish - my betta was a feisty thing, I was always afraid to put a frog in his tank - I don't think he would have liked it. So be sure to keep a very close eye on things, especially at first, and have a backup plan on-hand JIC it doesn't work out. Also be very aware that you'll have to hand or target feed your frog - without over feeding your Betta. It can be a bit tricky, but you'll figure it out 

Good luck, all of you! And keep us posted ^.^ Three cheers for new froggy friends!


----------



## Sylerwin

I'm introducing a betta to my ADF 10 gal. Is Stress Zyme okay to use with frogs?


----------



## Skyewillow

From what I read on the "go-to" ADF site (which I of course can't find now), and from talking to other ADF keepers, a 3 gal is fine for ONE frog, and NO fish. a 5 can happily house up to 2-3, anything more would be better suited to a 10 so they have personal space. All of that, of course requires the appropriate water changes to keep the water clean.


----------



## Chesh

Skyewillow said:


> From what I read on the "go-to" ADF site (which I of course can't find now), and from talking to other ADF keepers, a 3 gal is fine for ONE frog, and NO fish. a 5 can happily house up to 2-3, anything more would be better suited to a 10 so they have personal space. All of that, of course requires the appropriate water changes to keep the water clean.


You're probably right! I sometimes forget to clarify that I'm just writing about what I've found has worked best for me and my babies. Thank you for the clarification 

Whatever you gals choose to do, keep a close eye on things, and keep us posted, please!


----------



## djembekah

Ever since she filled her belly last night, Frog has been busy and active and much less shy!! She's so fun to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mar

Okay, here's the plan.
I'm going to move the sorority out of the 10 gallon.
I'm going to move the frogs into the 10 gallon. 
How many frogs can fit happily in a 10 gallon? Kinda want a cute frog community.
I'm thinking 5? 

I'm going to move the sorority into a 33 gallon or a 55 gallon I'm currently
looking into. 

To think this all started from overcrowding my frogs xD
My sorority'll be happier (and me cause i get to add more females > ) and so will my frogs.

Thanks again for all your help.


----------



## Mar

Okay nope, researched it.
3 frogs in a 10 gallon.
xD sorry for the spam, but also, pictures!
Lol, so many frog photos. Sorry for dumping them here D:
These photos made me realize, they really love that 5 gallon. 
they know all the nooks and crannies, and all the best hiding places.
I don't want to seem stingy, but if I move Marine (the betta) can I keep
them in there? Uuugh idk!

Anyway, photos!

This one is my favourite, by far. It isn't the best quality since it didn't focus, but it's hilarious.

"Come here, I'll share the secret of my youth."



Now, I think this is the male, but he's amazing at hiding spots. Takes forever for me to find him.

Last night, found him floating here:



Today, under the IAL:



And finally, peeeping out from the cave:



Now for some cute photos!







Chillin'







All of these photos were taken within 5-10 minutes. As soon as they smell food, they just become super active. so cute


----------



## Chesh

Soooooo CUTE!!! ^.^ Three cheers for picture spam!!!

I agree with that, honestly. I'm sure you could get away with more. . . but when I kept my three in a 10g species only, it seemed to be a perfect number to me, they were very active and happy, and maintenance was a breeze. I think I had an apple or maybe a nerite in there with them, too.  It's gonna be a lovely tank!

I think you're making a GREAT decision! Your fish, and frogs are gonna thank you for it, and you are going to LOVE having a species tank for frogs! (Of course, I'm biased and can't imagine anyone NOT loving one!!!)

This is one of the last pics of my 10g before it got taken down.  They loved it in there - miss that lil' (MESSY!) tank


----------



## Sylerwin

Mar said:


> Okay nope, researched it.
> 3 frogs in a 10 gallon.
> xD sorry for the spam, but also, pictures!
> Lol, so many frog photos. Sorry for dumping them here D:
> These photos made me realize, they really love that 5 gallon.
> they know all the nooks and crannies, and all the best hiding places.
> I don't want to seem stingy, but if I move Marine (the betta) can I keep
> them in there? Uuugh idk!
> 
> Anyway, photos!
> 
> This one is my favourite, by far. It isn't the best quality since it didn't focus, but it's hilarious.
> 
> "Come here, I'll share the secret of my youth."
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I think this is the male, but he's amazing at hiding spots. Takes forever for me to find him.
> 
> Last night, found him floating here:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, under the IAL:
> 
> 
> 
> And finally, peeeping out from the cave:
> 
> 
> 
> Now for some cute photos!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chillin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of these photos were taken within 5-10 minutes. As soon as they smell food, they just become super active. so cute


Be very careful with the moss balls. My frog actually dug his little hands into it and got stuck... TWICE. So I go in periodically now and squeeze the moss ball so it's really tight, making him unable to get stuck on the moss ball.


----------



## Sylerwin

Chesh said:


> Soooooo CUTE!!! ^.^ Three cheers for picture spam!!!
> 
> I agree with that, honestly. I'm sure you could get away with more. . . but when I kept my three in a 10g species only, it seemed to be a perfect number to me, they were very active and happy, and maintenance was a breeze. I think I had an apple or maybe a nerite in there with them, too.  It's gonna be a lovely tank!
> 
> I think you're making a GREAT decision! Your fish, and frogs are gonna thank you for it, and you are going to LOVE having a species tank for frogs! (Of course, I'm biased and can't imagine anyone NOT loving one!!!)
> 
> This is one of the last pics of my 10g before it got taken down.  They loved it in there - miss that lil' (MESSY!) tank


what is that floating plant?


----------



## Mar

I'm always squeezing my moss ball, thanks for the warning though.
That's a really beautiful tank chesh!


----------



## Skyewillow

Pancake tried to amplex the moss ball, then when he realized he wasn't getting anything from it, he would tuck his hands into it to anchor himself. He still does it to the filter cartridge when he "perches" up there. lol


----------



## Chesh

aww, my froggies always love their moss balls too. *giggle* That is mostly Riccia, my frogs LOVED that stuff! I still have it, but it ended up getting 'lost' in other floaters, I have to get a new mat and keep it separated


----------



## Skyewillow

Pancake loves Riccia too, but I'm a plant killer lol


----------



## Mar

I'll look into Riccia!
My frogs love frogbit (no surprise xD) 
and pennywort. 
This morning I caUght my ADF wedged between 2 leaves of Red Flame Sword, so cute! The male was back between the filter output xD


----------



## LebronTheBetta

I would want one in my 20G... But will it be okay?

There are cories, two guppies, and a betta. (It's terribly understocked.)

It as an AquaClear 30, would it get sucked in? I wouldn't have the guts to take out a dead frog.. >.> Also, is the disease fatal to fish, too?


----------



## Mar

^ better than being overstocked!!

Floated my ADFs in a cup in the sorority.
NOPE, not happening. Girls immediately starting circling them, flaring.
Themis and Theia even started trying to nip at them.
Wow, aggression much ladies?

They'll have to wait until I get the bigger sorority tank. I can't risk putting them
into that outsider-hating sorority xD 

But it should be any day now! 
To appease them, I fed them bloodworms. Got some pics since they
were so eager and just floating at the top. They literally opened their mouths
out of the water, and i would wave the bloodworm over their mouths, and they'd open. In they went. Too cute.
Sorry for the photo dump xD

A lot of the photos are really bad quality (thanks to not cleaning the water drops on the glass) so I apologize for that 

First, the head photos:











Thought this photo was cute:

"Why are you taking pictures of them??? It's always me!"









Found these photos so cute, like she was climbing up to the temple to pray for more bloodworms!! XD





Finally, the end result of the feeding xD


----------



## djembekah

EEK the little noses are sOOOOOOOo cute!!


----------



## Mar

I know!! And they kept gulping and randomly lunging at the air. Sooo cute.


----------



## Chesh

Love the froggies!!! You have some cuties! They ACT like they're used to being hand-fed already  SO glad you caught the aggression from the girls before putting them in.


----------



## djembekah

i'm getting some water sprite from someone, hopefully both Asher and Frog enjoy it!


----------



## Mar

I have handfed them before, but it was quite some time ago. I very rarely feed my fish/frogs frozen bloodworms because I once had a betta contract ick from them. 

Yeah, Sorry froggies, but they're gonna have to wait just a little bit longer before they can have the 10 gal all to themselves! And a buddy too perhaps! They'll love the plants in there i just know it  

djem, your frogs will definitely love the sprite.


----------



## djembekah

good :3
Ash is actually a fish, and Frog is the frog, but they'll both like it


----------



## Mar

LOL oh!
They can share


----------



## Mar

Male died. I thought he was shedding his skin, but I honestly have no clue. 
RIP.

ANyway, here are pictures of Haste, the female. She's now in her own 5 gallon tank. 









She's almost halfway out of the water lmao. Adventurous!


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## Skyewillow

Pancake shed the other day, it's kind of gross how the African frogs shove the dead skin in their mouth! Bleh!


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## Mar

I think Haste is shedding atm, I'm just not gonna watch her for a while ... xD


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## Torla

Is it possible to make this thread a sticky? I refer to it so often in preparation for adding ADFs to my tank, plus it's fun to go through reading about the quirks and silly antics of everyone's frogs.


----------



## Chesh

I agree with you, Torla. I stumble across so many ADF question threads, and it's sad but information on proper care is still pretty difficult to find. The mod team is working on the articles/stickies/profiles right now, I'm sure you've noticed, lol. It's a big job, won't happen overnight, but I do think we need to get a good care guide up somewhere obvious! Some of the info on the intro here is a bit out-dated, though. . . anybody want to write a new one up for review?

Mar, I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I don't want to make you paranoid, I've had frogs that like to come right up for feedings, too. But keep an eye on her. If she seems like she's trying to escape the water, or seems to be having difficulty with shedding, these both *could* by signs of Chytrid. Also could be just normal frog behavior, too - so I really don't want to get you paranoid! Just keep a close eye, hon. *hugs* I'm so sorry, again. . . T.T


----------



## Torla

Ooh, an updated guide would be amazing.  No rush -- I know how it is being a mod of a big forum. 

While I'm here, let me just confirm that 2 ADFs in a filtered 10 gal. with a single betta won't overstock the tank, right? Could I even do 3, or is 2 the limit for the size and current population?


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## djembekah

My frog had been kinda weird like that too...i don't feed her at the.surface but she bobs occasionally. now I'm paranoid. Also the betta in that tank is having issues. Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah

If my betta dies, could I consider a second frog? I know quarantine is important, but I've only had her a couple weeks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyewillow

Torla said:


> Ooh, an updated guide would be amazing.  No rush -- I know how it is being a mod of a big forum.
> 
> While I'm here, let me just confirm that 2 ADFs in a filtered 10 gal. with a single betta won't overstock the tank, right? Could I even do 3, or is 2 the limit for the size and current population?


With a betta in the mix, you have to be sure to dedicate a lot of room to hiding places for the frogs, otherwise you may end up with turf wars between the frogs and betta.

you can do 3 in there with a betta.


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## Skyewillow

djembekah said:


> If my betta dies, could I consider a second frog? I know quarantine is important, but I've only had her a couple weeks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would still QT separately, I bought frogs 2 weeks apart from the same store and the 2nd frog died a few weeks after bringing her home.


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## djembekah

Chesh said the same thing in PM  thank you!!


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## Skyewillow

Good deal. When dealing with petstore frogs, it's sooooooo much better to be safe than sorry!


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## djembekah

yep! planning to plant the tank more, and get some shrimpy tank mates for her


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## Skyewillow

oh, I'm sure she'll love that!!

I moved Pancake and he lost most of his plants to the tailbiting DTEE, but I'm planning on working that one out for him. He did keep his "tree" and his hut too.


----------



## djembekah

awesome!
i cant decide if i'll keep the castle with Frog but I'd really like to just put driftwood in there.


----------



## Skyewillow

what size is your tank? I know it can be darned near impossible to find DW for anything under 10 gals.

I managed to find his knotty tree looking one on eBay


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## djembekah

it's 5.5 gallons. i've seen fairly small ones at the pet store i don't frequent as much, but it's been awhile. i'll have a look next time i'm there, but i like natural.


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## Skyewillow

Here it is! (ignore the spots on my glass) I think I paid like $7 for it, and it came with slate attached to the bottom to help it sink. (he's currently in a 2.5 due to space, that I do 75% changes on 2x a week)


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## djembekah

Beautiful. I think my store has Malaysian driftwood which i like. My big hunk in ky 29 was only $13, and if they still have smaller bits it'd be cheaper.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

Willow, your tank is so cute! *waves back to froggy* Love it!

I prefer natural, too - but I ended up with one of these from PetSmart at first:








It looked surprisingly cute all covered in moss, and the frogs liked it! Now I just use rocks and plants to make them little hides. . .mine love squishing between rocks under some Anubias! Cuuuuuuuuute.
Can't wait to see what you end up with, Bek! 

And don't worry *too* much about the frog at the surface, it's just something they like to do, especially when they're young. If it looks like he's actively trying to escape the water - that's when you worry. 

*hugs* So sorry to hear about your lil' Asher T.T
Willow is right, QT is super important. 3 months is the rule with new froggies, as it can take Chytrid that long to present. . .


----------



## djembekah

Totally had that temple, and it fell off my fish junkshelf and broke ;( BUT I'm excited too, even started a thread *pokes sigggy*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh

but - but - but I SEE NO SIGGY!!! *cries*


----------



## Torla

I came across this video on how to feed ADFs when they're in a community tank. I think it's a brilliant idea. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Grx0iuqBs


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## Skyewillow

it bothers me that it's so bare compared to what he's used to, so I'm hoping to fix that at least, sometime soon.

And he poses like that all the time, he's the most neighborly mini-frog ever!


----------



## djembekah

My siggy doesn't post on mobile....i forgot!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

haha, mine do too, Willow! I know there's a pic I posted somewhere back on this page of Frecks in front of that little 'house' in that pose - looking for all the world like he's saying 'come in and have some tea!' lol

Bek, I found it! ^.^

Cute video, Torla! It's amazing how easily ADF can be 'trained' to get their dinner!


----------



## Senshine

I've had these two african dwarf frogs that I was given for a little while now. For quite some time I was thinking that one was male and the other was female, but now I'm starting to think they're both male! 
I'm pretty sure there might be something wrong with one.. He is extremely skinny and hes got quite the hunch back. I have been hand feeding them bloodworms and frog pellets, and recently I bought a terra cotta saucer to try and train them to eat there. I feed them until they don't seem interested anymore, then I'd leave some for them to scavenge for if they wanted more. 
At first I had them in a 3-4 gallon heated tub with a bunch of plants, then I moved them to a heated and filtered 10 gallon with some plants. 
It also kind of seems like they fight? over the food. The bigger one will bite at the other frog until he leaves while they are in the terra cotta saucer. Is this because they are both males?
They are really cute, and I love watching them swim around and its neat to hear them sing. 
Here is a picture of each frog:

(This shows the armpit spot that leads me to believe this one is a male instead of female like I thought) This one also has some sort of a skin tag or something on his lip.


Mr. Skinny with his hunch back-


----------



## Chesh

Hey Senshine! Lovely little froggies you have there, great shots! 

The first one is certainly a male, but the only way to reliably sex these frogs (that I know of) is by the presence of the postauxiliary subdermal gland (big words for little pimples!) on their side. They don't appear until maturity, but if one has it, I'd think the other would too - they look to be about the same age. 

Typically, females will be chubbier than males, and in my experience are more prone to being intentionally aggressive while feeding (though any frog_ can_ fight for their share of the meal if they feel it's necessary). Typically, frogs don't cause any harm with their chomping - especially since they don't have any teeth! Oftentimes it's seems to be accidental - they lunge and happen to nom on each other when they try for a mouthful of dinner. Since ADF don't see very well, they hunt by tracking movement. Unfortunately for them, we feed 'dead' foods, so they get a little bit confused at times and pounce on each-other. I have a couple of fairly aggressive (lol, aggressive for ADF isn't typically very aggressive! ^.^) frogs in my community tank, and one little male who would just starve to death if I didn't keep a close eye on his intake - none of them seem bothered by being chomped on by their buddies, I've never seen any damage done. Good job with target feeding - it can be so important. 

You can tell a full frog by looking at their underbelly. Their stomach is located in the center and slightly to the left of the spine - you should be able to see a gentle rounding there when they're full. . . as long as you know your skinny frog is eating well, don't worry too much about that part. Just like people, they can come in different shapes and sizes (all cute!) One of my adult males is fairly thin compared to his buddies, but with a great appetite, and I've had him for over a year and a half - he's healthy as can be!

The frog in the bottom picture doesn't *seem* overly thin to me, though I do see the hunched back that has you concerned, he looks healthy enough, otherwise! Has he always been this way, or is it something that has come about recently? As long as he's swimming and eating well, I would try not to worry too much about it. . . I'm not sure why this would happen, but I've known frogs to live a good long life with similar issues. . . possibly just a genetic defect? :/ 


Hopefully one of the others will have something more to offer you on these concerns - wish I could be more help! Welcome to frogville just the same!!!


----------



## Mitra

Does anyone have experience with Seachem Flourite with ADF's? I have regular aquarium gravel in my 10 gallon (only had my two frogs for about a week with my betta). I want to switch to Flourite for my plants but want to know if the clay pebbles are too small and if the frogs can accidently choke on them? If this is the case would an option be 1 inch of Flourite and 1 inch of gravel on top? I really want to use this Flourite because I finally found a place that would ship to me (paid 20 bucks for shipping alone). Thanks!


----------



## Skyewillow

Pancake was being adorable.


----------



## Chesh

Mitra - I'm sorry, I've never used Seachem Flourite. . .hopefully one of the others can help.

Willow - your Pancake is a SWEEEEETIE! ^.^ And your NEW new avatar is cute, lol. I posted some 

Kindy tank shots up in my tank journal, there are froggies in a couple of them! ^.^


----------



## djembekah

Awww Pancake!

i added my blue apple snail to the tank with Frog. i think he misses the mess that is my 29 though. lots of delicious algae in there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## djembekah

So Frog is doing great. In fact she's swimming around right now! but i'd really like to ween her off the hand feeding...what's the best way to go about this? a little ceramic dish in the tank with food in the same place every few days?


----------



## Skyewillow

I'm getting ready to put a terra cotta dish into Cake's tank.

Also, Pancake will be getting a friend soon. She's been QT'd over at Aemaki's about as long as I've had Cake, there was one other frog, but I think it went AWOL, so since we both feel bad that our frogs are alone, she'll be coming up here as soon as the weather cools back off and realizes that this is fall, there isn't a need for 94 degree weather, kthnx...

I think my current plan is to have them in neighboring 2.5's I think, for the time being. I don't know yet. I do have a big 5 gal bucket that they might like to share lol.


----------



## djembekah

Those are a good idea, and since I know they're tank safe, i could get a cheap one at work. Thanks  

any tips? Agent13 recommended putting the dish in Frog'a favorite spot. I'm sure she will get the hang of it, just a little nervous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyewillow

just start hand feeding her near the dish to start, then slowly start putting the food into the dish


----------



## Mitra

I cannot find a terra cotta plate anywhere! I have two dwarf frogs in a 10 gallon with my male betta for about a month. My male betta has been so well behaved with them, but my frogs go for his caudal fin every chance they get (but usually miss). So my betta just avoids the frogs every time he sees them. Today one of my frogs (already missing a hand from the pet store) has a really red nose. I can't tell if its swolen, but its really red. I didn't notice it until now. Could this be a bacterial infection or something else? His behavior has been normal from what i can tell.


----------



## BrrDee

Would 2 frogs in a 5 gal betta tank be too much? Right now I plan on just adding 1, but 2 would be fun if they wouldn't be too crowded. 
Also, will this Chytrid fungus harm my betta? Your info link just mentions amphibians but I figured I'd ask.


----------



## TheCrabbyTabby

Can ADF's prey on MTS? 

You see, I have an ADF, and he/she (not really sure of gender) seems to thrive without really eating the frog pellets I feed him/her. 

I admittedly forget to feed the frog often and the thing still winds up thriving in my tank. The only thing I can think of is that he/she feeds on the small MTS that I have in there to aerate the sand substrate. 

Does anyone else have experience in this matter?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Two frogs and a betta in a five gallon may be too much because of the small space. But it is not as bad as it could be.

As for frogs eating MTS, I've never seen it, but they eat the leftover food that is in there from the betta. Also, when you say you forget often, is this like you forget for a day or two at a time, or? Because they can go a few days between feeding a and be fine.


----------



## Skyewillow

TheCrabbyTabby said:


> Can ADF's prey on MTS?
> 
> You see, I have an ADF, and he/she (not really sure of gender) seems to thrive without really eating the frog pellets I feed him/her.
> 
> I admittedly forget to feed the frog often and the thing still winds up thriving in my tank. The only thing I can think of is that he/she feeds on the small MTS that I have in there to aerate the sand substrate.
> 
> Does anyone else have experience in this matter?


frogs naturally eat small fish and inverts in the wild, I wouldn't be surprised if your froggy is snacking on your baby MTS when you're not looking


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## jaysee

I would be surprised. There is a ton of thick hard shell and not much meat for them. I wouldn't be surprised if they are pond snails, but MTS...yeah I'd be shocked.


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## djembekah

There are TINY albino ADFS at my pet store. I'm tempted to get one to eventually live with Frog the frog. i have a kritter keeper full of moss he could be quarantined in
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh my goodness! Get it!  I am so jealous.


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## djembekah

I think i will if its there next payday, he was just soooo cute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah

Thinking about a tank I'm hoping to set up before long. is 55 gallons too tall for adfs? I'm picturing a peaceful community with five or sixin tje mix if it'd work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Not too tall, just make sure you have resting spots at several levels, like plants and decor, so they can take a break from swimming if they have to.


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## Chesh

GIZZY!!!! *GLOMPS*

. . . been a while, darlin' how's tanks? I lost track of your lil' Axies, and your corner tank! All settled after the big move? *hugs* Nice to see your 'face!' ^__^

** Yeah, frogs? Nah - I don't see ADF eating MTS, my Betta fish used to hunt 'em down, tho!!! >.<

*** Bek, lol, Frecks was AMAZING in my 55g community. I miss having him in there!


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## djembekah

Thank you for enabling me. I'm adding them to my future stock list lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh goodness, lol a lot has changed here... I have three bettas, six ADFs, four pea puffers, and... Nine and counting axolotls. All my baby lotls grew up and went on to find new homes, and I've bred and raised several more broods since then. The move went well, but I am already considering moving house again and going to Texas when I get my taxes back. Lmao!


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## Chesh

Thanks for the update - you_ HAVE_ been busy!!! Don't believe you're thinking of moving again so soon!!! Glad to hear things are going well over there - always good to see you around! ^_^


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh gosh, it's been crazy, but I am tired of this cold weather, I need to go back where it's nice and warm. Lol!


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## finsNhooves

Hi there i was wondering if you could give me some advice on these cute little critters. I am interested in maybe putting two of them in a 10 gallon with y male betta. Would that be ok? Also how would i go about feeding them? My parents wont let me put bloodworms in the freezer so i plan on using sinking frog and tadpole bits. Im worried that they will starve because my betta will find all the food. Thanks for this thread! It is really usefull and informative.


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## Chesh

Hullo! 
The age-old question of fish and frogs, lol. It's a hard one to answer. . .
I've never kept Betta with frogs, only with other fish, but what I have learned with my four, and from what I have read - the best advice to give you is HAVE A BACKUP PLAN!

I've seen so many stories where it's gone swimmingly with the two (pun intended!), and also seen my fair share of horror stories of fish or frogs not getting along at all. 

I think in a 10g tank, if you have it set up so that both animals will be comfortable, you stand a fair chance - but bear in mind how unique the temperaments of Betta fish can be. Each of my four frogs have been distinct individuals, too! Some seem more inclined to stand up and fight for their dinner, others tend to hide away. . .

I personally would be very comfortable keeping two frogs and a Betta in a 10g tank - as far as bio-load and tank size is concerned, but I also run fairly well-planted tanks, and that can have an effect on parameters - I've never done it the other way!



As for feeding. . . again! No easy answer. . .

My frogs never took to the dried food, and I've many read instances where this has been the case. But also have seen more than my fair share of pellet eaters out there. Personally, I would check with the shop and see what they're feeding them there. When I got my first frog, they told me to use the pellets, and since she wouldn't eat them, we were both unhappy until I figured out that they had been getting brine shrimp in the store. If they're already used to accepting the pellets, you shouldn't have any problems. 

My frogs also love frozen Tilapia - variety in their diet is best, but I'm betting your parent's will be more comfortable with this being in the freezer, as it's people food >.< I'm sure there are other types of fish or shrimp that you could use to supplement their diet that come from the grocery aisle - something to look into, maybe?!

Freeze dried bloodworms are also an option that has worked for others, but that I have never tried personally. You'll want to be sure to rehydrate them in tank water before feeding to prevent possible intestinal issues.

Feeding fish with frogs without over-feeding or under-feeding. . . is a trick! But it can be done. You just have to pay close attention. My frogs have all be very easily trained to feed from my hand or a baster - and even from a specific location in the tank. Betta fish are good at learning routines, too. . . but you'll have to be wary and make sure that everyone is getting their share, and not too much. Adult frogs can skip a day or two between meals, too - so this can work in your favor.



Again - just be sure you have something planned in case it doesn't work out between them, so that neither frog nor fish comes to harm. . . and I say it's worth a shot. Please continue to do your own research, as well as watch this thread for other thoughts - I only know my own experiences, and what I've seen and read around the WWW!

Hope this helps! And please be sure to let us know how you decide!


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## finsNhooves

Thank you sooo much! That was super helpful. I am going to do some more research and talk to my parents about it. And i will be sure to let you know what my decision is. Thanks again


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## Laki

Hey Gizmo-
Wondering if someone could help me out. I have a recently freed up 5 gallon and I decided against any more bettas. So I was just going to have a planted tank with Milly but quickly got bored of that idea. 

It's a planted tank with a bright 6500k light, black gravel and driftwood. Heated to 80F and has a low filter. After I time out the bacteria that likely killed my plakat (I'd say a month to be safe) I want to get ADF. 

Where should I get them? I'm in Canada and this disease has me paranoid about getting them from a pet store. I want to put 3 in there (I know it's pushing it but with water changes and the live plants I don't see it being an issue) so if I get them all the same time, can I put all in the tank at once? (since they'll be coming from the same tank)

Do they like tanned water? I have so many IAL leaves! 

If I get a trio, what should the male to female ratio be?


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## djembekah

Oh totally get froggies! Id probably only do two, but if you keep up changes it could be okay. idk where you'd get them in canada though. try aquabid?

Another thing is that the gravel should be too big for froggie mouths. otherwise they might eat some when going for food and then not be able to pass it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laki

Thanks, I cannot see them being able to put my gravel in their mouths. I have standard gravel .. I don't know.


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## finsNhooves

So i promised i would let you guys know what my desicion was on getting some frogs but after talking it over with my parents, we've decided to not get any because we go on little trips quite frequently and i think the frogs would be too hard for our pet sitter to take care of. Maybe in the future i will have tank just for frogs


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## Chesh

*FishNhooves:* Thanks for the update! I'm glad to hear that you guys sat down and discussed your options and came up with the best solution for your family and the animals you keep. . . hopefully one day you'll be in a better position to bring a few lovely little froggies home!

*Laki:* Gizzy's been pretty busy lately, so I'll try to answer as best I can in the hope that it helps!

I do agree with Bek - in my opinion, two would be better than three in a 5g, and I would *personally* keep it to one. That's just my way, though.

These little guys will take full advantage of all the swimming space they can get - I've learned this by having them in larger setups (29 and 55g tanks), and water quality can be tougher to maintain in a smaller tank, because of the high-protein foods these frogs require. If you do choose to keep them in a 5g, you'll probably want to do extra water changes, and once the frogs reach adulthood, limit feedings to every other or every third day to keep the waste lower, and the water clean - my current 3 have been on an every-third-day feeding routine for over a year now, and are doing brilliantly (I did feed them daily until they reached their full growth).

I've had my babies in a number of setups now, and though they have done well in all of them, I felt that my frog-only species tank was ideal. That was 3 frogs in a well-planted 10g, with a Nerite buddy. I shut down that tank and put them into a community to make my life easier, but when things settle down again, I'd love to set that tank back up.

I typically keep my tanks with a sand bed, but am currently keeping my frogs in a tank with a 'river gravel' substrate. For a short period of time in the beginning, I had one frog in a tank with standard gravel. I have never had a frog have any issues with ingesting the gravel, but I won't say it isn't possible. If their food is on the substrate, they tend to hunt by pouncing - bringing up mouthfuls of whatever is down there - so I can definitely see accidental ingestion it as a possibility, though I'm not sure how common it is. . .these little guys are pretty smart. I have trained my frogs to eat from my fingertips or a turkey baster - this way they come UP for food, and don't pounce around on the substrate. You can also train them to feed from a dish, which would help keep them safe.

Hope this helps!


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## Laki

Thanks so much chesh! I think I will get two, rather than three. Its easy to overstock and I was thinking where it's so planted that I would be fine. I'll heed the advice. Two is fine, but I don't want one on its own. 

So they have a high bioload? 

I have been cycling their tank since osha passed away and it will be ready after Christmas so I still have time to research everything perfect for them. How big are their mouths as full grown froggies? I do intend on getting a dish for them to eat on, last thing I need is more buggies in my gravel!


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## Chesh

A lot of research and a fully cycled (and planted!) tank = ADF awesomesauce!!!
I think two will be great in a standard 5g tank. ^__^ 

I wouldn't say the frogs themselves have a high bioload, but they _do_ need high protein foods (none of the four froggies I've had have taken to the pellets - so be prepared to feed wet-frozen goodies, if this turns out to be the case with yours) I've seen many posts about protein films forming in tanks in which the animals are fed on an exclusively high-protein diet - plants can't help with that, so you'll definitely want to keep up on those water changes - especially at first, while they're still learning to take foods from the dish, and for as long as you feed daily (you can continue to feed them daily once they reach adulthood - its hard to resist!) 

I also think that two is a better choice over three simply because it'll give both frogs more space to roam around in. Again, my opinion based only on my experiences. . . might be different for you, but my babies get around!

As full grown froggies, they aren't very big - neither the frogs or their mouths! Big enough to gobble up bloodworm without thinking twice! ^__^


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## Laki

They sound adorable, I cannot wait!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Just swinging by to show off my six! Snapped this while they were in the holding tank so that I could clean out and rearrange their normal tank. Took the chance to give them a treat of live black worms too! Happy froggies! 

You may notice two are very thin... I have no idea why? They eat just like the others, they just can't seem to put on weight... ive had these guys all for about a year... ish? Not sure exactly. Lol


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## djembekah

The different colors are amazing! i really want to pick up a second frog but the only place a quarantine could happen is with the betta.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

I had an albino one years ago as well... I miss him terribly. 

Their colors really amaze me too. 

You can QT with a beta for the chytrid... but you run the risk of other nasties... :/


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## Chesh

*SQUEEEEEEE*
I <3 FROGGY CUTENESSSSSSS!!!
You do really get to see the differences in coloration/patterning really well in that shot! My three all look so different - really cool! 

Those do look thinner, but don't look emaciated or starving to me. You would know better than I, having kept them longer. . . but based on the four that I've had, and all the images I've seen (sadly many of which have been starving T__T) I wouldn't worry too much. They don't look emaciated to me, just slender! (and adorable!) I'd say they're probably just smaller males, and maybe not as greedy as the others. As long as you know they've been eating (and I can see they are doing just that!), I wouldn't worry too much! 

Just another example of the wide range of variation that can be considered normal in these animals! 
Of course. . . next to that massive female they look EXTRA super tiny! Cute, cute!! 

Nice shot, Gizzy - thank you for the froggy eye candy! I love <3


*Bek:* How _IS _your lil' one doing??! I'm sure I've missed posts somewhere around here - sorry I've been so away lately! *hugs* I miss my forum time!


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## djembekah

She's doing alright! i really need to make her tank a little prettier. its pretty ugly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah, I think you are right lol! Between the four males, the two chubby ones ate so much they look like small females, the piggies. X3


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## Laki

What an amazing photo Gizmo! Thanks! So they should have rotund bellies? How much should you feed them per sitting? I know I'll probably get contradictory info if I look elsewhere or (heaven forbid) on pellet food packages.


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## Chesh

djembekah said:


> She's doing alright! i really need to make her tank a little prettier. its pretty ugly


lol, ish okay! As long as the baby ish happy! SHE is the pretty one! Glad to hear all is well!



Gizmothefreaky said:


> Yeah, I think you are right lol! Between the four males, the two chubby ones ate so much they look like small females, the piggies. X3


*giggles* Love those fat froggy tums! 



Laki said:


> What an amazing photo Gizmo! Thanks! So they should have rotund bellies? How much should you feed them per sitting? I know I'll probably get contradictory info if I look elsewhere or (heaven forbid) on pellet food packages.


This is hard to answer, a lot of it will depend on the food you're feeding, and the age/size of the frog - you DO have to be careful not to overfeed, of course. ADF's stomachs are in the middle, but slightly to the left of their spine, so a full frog will have a nice curve to the left side of it's tummy when viewed from above or below - but not so much when they're hungry. If you look back at Gizzy's pic, they all look (to me) like they've had a bite or three, except the little guy with his face in the worms - his tummy doesn't look full yet. You'll understand better when you see them in person. I KNOW I have a shot somewhere on my computer that shows this, but OMG! SOOO MANY PICS to sort through!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I have been lucky... or maybe I just train them, I dunno, but my frogs will accept any food I put in front of them. Pellets, frozen, live... anything. And the way i feed is not necessarily the way you should feed, but I believe in letting them short of forage for their food, and how I do that is by sprinkling it all over their tank, a little here, a little there. I think it's more natural that way... This blackworm feast is not a common thing for these guys with me. (I keep the blackworms to feed my baby axolotls) so this wasa treat because I upset them by chasing them down and getting them or of their tank, and it was way more than they needed, several of them stuffed themselves so full they look uncomfortable, so to correct my mistake I will be fasting the piglets for a few days. Lol!


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## Laki

Thanks you two. I've been reading a lot about people who cannot get their frogs to eat.. Should you slowly wean them onto proper food when you buy them? Lord knows they don't get live or frozen food at the store. And what methods did you guys use to "train" them to eat?


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## Gizmothefreaky

I am kind of harsh. ... >_>; I figure when they are hungry enough they will eat what I offer. After I know they will eat the Pellets, which is the staple here at my house, THEN I begin offering frozen and live again. But that's just me lol, others may train differently.


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## Laki

They're fed pellets at the store, right? So I figure I'll buy what they feed but also more bloodworms because everybody benefits!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

That all depends on how Good the store is... Some stores jus let them eat whatever the fish don't and refuse to feed them special.


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## Laki

petsmart... So....

I'll ask when I go in what they feed them. Hopefully they're not starved.


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## Gizmothefreaky

No telling, each store is different.


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## Chesh

heehee... *maybe* mine would eat pellets now that they've been trained to hand-feed, but they surely didn't when they were new! I might be a bit less leery about letting them get hungry enough to eat anything at this point, too! But since I'm "mean" enough to only feed mine every 2nd or 3rd day I'm fine with keeping them on wet frozen ^_^

Good questions, Laki - definitely recommend you ask at the shop when you get your babies. Mine came from PetSmart, and when I asked what they ate, they sold me the pellets. Whiiiiich, they didn't eat! *bangshead* After I went _back _to the store, I found out that they had been feeding them brine shrimp, so I got those, and never had a problem after that. When I got the new ones (in two separate batches from the same store), they ALSO refused the pellets. I just gave up!!!

Now I feed a mix of brine, mysis, and bloodworm, and sometimes I give them bits of tilapia - nomnom!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Finally got their tank finished, so this picture was taken just before putting them back... you can see that they absolutely STUFFED themselves on blackworms... poor turds, but they are going to be fasting while they settle back in, so it'll be alright. Lol!


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## Chesh

heehee! <3 for update shots!!! FATTER *might* just equal CUTER with froggums! ^___^


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## Laki

They're cute! 

Can you buy all those foods you mentioned frozen at pet supply stores?


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## Chesh

Yep! All at PetSmart - except Tilapia - I get that from the grocery store


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## Gizmothefreaky

do this is where my frogs live, for all of you that are wondering. Yes, it is very small, however it is just temporary...

It is a divided 30 gallon long, and the end section is equivalent of about ten gallons. They do share the space with three pea puffers, and the rest is divided for my three bettas. I tried keeping the frogs in pairs in the sections with the bettas, but the bettas were eating all their food. Lol! However the puffers don't care About the pellets, so they are better off in there. 

I will be building custom tanks for the frogs and puffers from plexiglass when I move down to texas, so they will get upgrades. Lol!!


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## Laki

That's a nice setup! So you can keep bettas and ADF! All 6 adf are in the 10 gallon section?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol yep! I keep both! 

Yes all the frogs are in the ten gallon section, and I would not recommend to anyone to keep six frogs in ten gallons, but it is what I am doing now, and it seems to be working just fine so far. :3


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## DerangedUnicorn

Hi. I have not read this whole thread, so sorry if I'm asking some same old questions...

I've had my frog from almost three months & I've only seen her shed once. Is that normal? Does that mean she's reached adult size?

Is it okay that I only feed frozen bloodworms? She won't even look at pellets. 

I was thinking about getting a new tank & a buddy for her. Do they do well in NPTs?


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## Gizmothefreaky

You will not see them she'd most of the time, it can happen in a couple hours while you are sleeping, and they then usually eat the skin. I have had frogs for years, and can easily count on fingers and toes how many times i have witnessed a shed in progress.

If blood worms are all she eats then you should at least offer some other frozen food, I have had success with beef heart and mysis shrimp as well as brine shrimp. Try to vary her diet a bit, but she isn't horribly abused getting just blood worms. Lol 

They are great in npts, just make sure you fully cycle the tank and QT the new guy for the full three months before introducing them.


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## Laki

As for this cyphid disease thing, I was talking to the fish manager at petsmart (just to get an idea) and he said they don't usually have ADF returned dead within their 2 week guarantee. Also, though he is unfamiliar with the ADF disease he did say they dose their tank system weekly with malachite green and something else. Is this an effective way to keep store fish healthy? Including frogs.


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## Chesh

*@ Laki *- Chytrid fungus can take up to three months to show obvious symptoms, which is why we always recommend keeping any new frogs in QT away from other ADF for that amount of time. The illness can be carried/spread by fish, water, or anything in the tank - but fish themselves are not affected by it in any way. . .

I've spoken to the head corporate vet at PetSmart to find out what their procedures were regarding the prevention of Chytrid in their stock - the information is buried many, many pages back by now, but I was pleased to hear the procedures that they have put in place to ensure that their stock is free of this fungus, and the four frogs that I've purchased from my local PetSmart have had any issues. That said, I still pay VERY close attention during those first three critical months after bringing a new frog home. 

Regarding Malachite Green. . . eeehhh, I wouldn't EVER recommend that you bypass QT on ANY newly purchased animal for your tank. 
My PetSmart also runs UV sterilization on all of their tanks, but their stock turns around so quickly, and they *typically* get shipments of new fish/frogs/snails every week. . . I don't see how any treatments run in store could really be that effective. Don't trust it!!! Quarantine is so very important!!!

*@ Unicorn* - What Gizzy said ^_^

*@ Gizzy* - Your setup is super cute! I love the little illustrations you have for each of your betta! You need to make one for the froggy troupe, lol... thanks for the shot!!! You'll have to be sure to put up a journal/step-by-step when you get to making the new custom tanks for everyone - I'd LOVE to see that! STILL can't believe you're moving again!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! Yeah me either, but it's been a year and a half since the last time I moved, so it's about time. XD

I have three custom tank builds on my hands, I have to build one for the puffers, one for the frogs, and then I have a special needs axolotl that needs to be in a tank by himself, so rather than set up a boring old ten gallon, I'm going to custom build him one that is low and long, so it'll be easier for him to get around.

And they need to be all different sizes too.. I need about 18 gallons for the frogs, 15 for the axolotl, and 10 for the puffers, but I want to make them cool shapes, not just boring old rectangles. Lol!


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## Chesh

It so doesn't *SEEM* like it's been a year and a half already!!! SO nice to have you around again, though *hugs*
Poor 'special needs' Axie T__T He's lucky to have a momma like you to look out for him!
Sounds like a super fun project, I can't wait till you get started. . . do you still have that neat corner tank? Did I already ask this?!! *needs more sleep*


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol!! Yes I still have that tank, it holds my adult axolotls at the moment, but when I get down to texas there will be more changes to that... I am going to get a pair of 55 gallon breeder tanks and set up a tank for boys and a tank for girls, and breed them in earnest this time, matching pairs for traits I like and all that good stuff. Lol
When the lotls are set up in the new tank, I will turn the corner tank into a tropical npt and get some sort of pretty schooling fish to go in there... not sure what yet, and I don't want to do a sorority, because those never really work for me.


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## Chesh

. . . wishing I was moving to Texas, too - so I could come visit!!! Sounds awesome!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! Well how far from Texas are you? You could always come visit any time once I'm settled in!


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## Chesh

HAHA! It'd be about a 24 hour drive - not counting breaks! I'll just have to live through pictures for now!!!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! Well it'll take me about three days to get there from where I am now.


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## Laki

My petsmart uses UV sterilization too I think. Either way, I'll be buying my 2 out of the same tank so my 5g IS the quarentine! lol


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## Gizmothefreaky

Well there you go lol! Just keep an eye on them.


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## Laki

I will, thanks!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Hey! I'm just going to toss these here as well as make a picture thread about them. Lol

My bettas! 

Hemostat, he is an EEHMPK... That is a mouthfull. Lmao!



Pluto, he is a HMDbT and a tail biter to boot... the turd.



and Ryker, he is a DbT, and is impossible to get a decent picture of without flash...



So what do you guys think? X3 oh!! 

This was Ryker when I first rescued him...



he had sbd and could barely stay upright for more than a few moments.


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## Gizmothefreaky

*Omg eggs!!!*

So my kids were singing last night and I thought, 'Wow! I haven't heard them do that in a pretty long time...' as I was falling asleep. Today... or just now rather, I went to feed my puffers some blackworms and was confused, is there black sand floating in my... OMFG! They look just like teeny axolotl eggs and this is so cool, but I am actually kind of terrified because I've never raised ADF tads, and I don't have any food for them... and... This is the first time they've bred for me... isn't that cool? *faints*


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## djembekah

BABIIIIIESSSSSSSSS caps because babies
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PetMania

Congratz! How many are there?


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## PetMania

Congratz! How many are there?


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yah! Babies!! 


Uh there are about 79 visible in that picture... so I would venture to guess about 100 with the ones stuck to the underside of the duckweed.


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## Gizmothefreaky

I found a whole bunch more eggs yesterday... There are now probably 130+ eggs...

Here is a picture of day two.



and some close ups


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## Gizmothefreaky

Day three!
Head count Is 99!





I have a friend that deals with micro foods all the time and has the knowledge to raise teeny tads, so they have gone to live with her for a week or two, so that she can get them started, once they are on to larger foods that I can raise easily, then I will get some of the wee ones back and go from there! I'm so excited, here's hoping that they make it and thrive!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Even though I don't think anyone is reading this anymore...

Christmas morning I found they had laid more eggs! I have a microworm culture going, so tomorrow (day three) I will attempt to feed them and count them for the first time... I will try this batch from day one. No pictures tonight.

Hope everyone had a wonderful christmas! I know we did.


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## djembekah

I'm definitely keeping up! Yay more babies!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh yay! 
I am nervous, but I think it'll work if I do this just right.


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## djembekah

I totally was sure I replied to this. I'm still following!!! Yay babies!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## djembekah

Woops. Weird phone is weird. Sorry!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chesh

I've been so super busy with Christmas, sorry I haven't been by. . . but GIZ!!! This i_s AWESOME!!! 
_I'm way excited for your taddies!!! Keep us posted, I can't wait to see how they do! *FINGERS CROSSED* It would be so amazing if you had some 'home grown' froggies! ^___^


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## Gizmothefreaky

I will be sure to keep you posted, I am a bit weary of cleaning out the container I have them in, but once it's clean and they are counted I'll take some pictures and feed them.


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## Chachi

Very cool!


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## carlos puron

I'm still reading


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## Chesh

I hope you get so MANY froggums!!! Will you be selling them? I'd_ LOVE_ to give a home-grown Gizzy froglet or two a home in the spring if things go well with them! *fingerscrossed* This is SO exciting! I've read of a few people who have pulled it off, but raising ADF from taddies is difficult. It's wonderful that you have a friend with the right kinds of food (and experience!) close by who is willing to help you out!!! EEEEE! (too excited!)


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## Chesh

Oh yeah!!! Goodness, Giz! You got all active when I got all distracted by the holidays! Did I ever comment on your fishies?!! I love how you found a way to divide the big tank to make it work for everyone until you can move them into their own hand-made homes. . . and your Betta are STUNNING!!! They're all pretty, but Pluto - omg, he's like a RAINBOW! So gorgeous!!!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Honestly I'll probably just be giving them away for the cost of shipping and packing materials. Lol if they make it to an adult size and survive the road trip down to texas, they should be ready to go by the middle of spring or so.

Lol yeah the tank is working great, obviously if the frogs are happy enough to mate, which I am told is difficult to induce and I did literally nothing to spur it on... so yeah. My three betta are probably the last ones I'll be getting though, unless I find one that I simply cannot live without. Lol

My friend actually ended up taking the second batch of taddies as well, when I discovered the microworms were too big for them to eat, so it'll probably be a few weeks before I get any of the little ones back. I am giving her half of them to thank her for helping, so I should have about 75 baby frogs... @[email protected] this is going to be fun... lol


----------



## SageMyster

If the ADF is not placed with any other ADFs (or frogs from other pet stores), is it okay not to quarantine, aka have it in my tank with fire shrimp and betta? Or can it contaminate my other fish?


----------



## Chesh

*Hiya, Sage!*
That's a trick question! ^__^
Illnesses that affect frogs (one example being chytrid), do not affect fish or shrimp. 
But with that being said, if the newly-purchased frog(s) were brought home from a tank that had fish or shrimp in it, or shared filtration with tanks that contain fish or shrimp, a frog may be a CARRIER for an illness that could affect fish and shrimp, though it would not affect the frog.

. . . wow, I don't know if that made any sense at all! Bed time for me, I think!!!

Point is this: Better safe than sorry, ALWAYS quarantine for a few weeks, if possible. ^__^



*Gizzy. . . 
*I want 75 baby frogs! ^.~ LOTS of fun, for sure! I hope they ALL grow well with a little help from your friend, and definitely put me on the waiting list for any that might eventually need a new home! *ishexcited* Keep us posted on their progress - and PICSSSSSSS!!!!


----------



## SageMyster

Thanks, Chesh!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol yes, what Chesh said. 

Lol oh definitely. You can have several if you really want them, I don't mind. 

As soon as I get babies back that no longer need micro foods, I will begin posting pictures again. Lol


----------



## djembekah

I might need one too. Frog needs a friend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol sure! And with these guys you don't have to worry about chytrid. They will never have come into contact with ACFs, just a short QT to make sure they are eating and recovered from shipping.


----------



## djembekah

Yaay!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Of course I am getting ahead of myself here, because I don't know if these guys will even make it lol.


----------



## djembekah

BAH tried posting a photo and it no worky. I try again.

ETA: Hie!








_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Omg lol that's a cute one! The face... lol!


----------



## djembekah

She's SOOO funny! Cracks me up everytime I look at her hahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh

Awwww!!! Whadda CUTE little thing she is! ^__^


----------



## djembekah

She's a crazy thing! Part of me wants to move her into the 29 but idk if I'd ever see her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chesh

I see mine that live in the 29 all the time! There are three of them, but I had ONE in my 55, and I saw HIM all the time while he was there, too! You have a lot of plants, which she would love, of course - and mine sure seem to love the swimming space! 
You said that you were afraid she wouldn't be safe in there at some point - why?


----------



## djembekah

Oh I worry about the angelfish. I mean he leaves other fish alone ever since his mate died, but I'm paranoid.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I have kept them with young angelfish before... but I would be concerned about keeping them with an adult. Just personally. Lol


----------



## Chesh

Boo! I've never kept angels before - if both you and Gizzy are worried about it, then yeah - might be better not to risk it. Bummer, though! T___T


----------



## djembekah

ah well!!! maybe i'll have somewhere to have an entire 10-20 gallon frog tank someday


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

*sigh*... what started out as a crappy day just got worse.. Hemostat, my EEHMPK, passed away from what I am assuming is old age... no fuzz, was fine yesterday, no raised scales... nothing to indicate he was ill... SIP Hemostat...


----------



## Chesh

Oh, Gizzy - I'm so sorry to hear such sad news *hugs* 
Wish there was something you could have done to help T___T
At least you know he lived a good and long life under your care. . .


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Took his spot out of the tank... the frogs are excited about more space at least...


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Seems so empty now...


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

So I don't know what I'm doing... but the frogs mated again.... lol more eggs being carted off to my friends house for her to raise.

 

caught this embrace in the middle of the day today too... and the female is still hanging out at the surface, so I may see more eggs by the end of the day.


----------



## PetMania

If you were a lot closer, I would take those off your hands. Dang, you got so lucky to get them to breed! If they grow up, let me know! I'd rather get them from you than PetCo or PetSmart because they have been known to keep ADFs with ACFs.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I don't even know how I'm getting them to breed... lol! I can send you some when they are old enough though.


----------



## PetMania

Froggies are so cute! 

Too bad I can't buy from the stores though. It's like they taunt me, $3 a frog! Yeah, and it comes with a free disease, too! :roll:

But this thread has helped me a LOT.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Like I said before, I will just be giving these frogs away, all you have to do is pay for shipping and packaging supplies. Yes it is more expensive than going to the pet store, but I can absolutely tell you without a shadow of a doubt that they will be disease free and healthy.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

YOU GUYS HAVE GOT TO SEE THESE!!

My friend took some pictures of the tads with a microscope... oh! Did I mention the frogs laid MORE EGGS yesterday and last night? Yeah... but yes! These pictures are OMG!

Eggs laid last night: 

Two week old tad: 

Two week old next to some eggs and duck weed for scale: 

I can't get over how amazing these are... wow!


----------



## djembekah

Omg Giz...those are fantastic. I am in love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Guys... I am going to drown in tadpoles... I don't know what I'm doing to make my adult's so damn happy, but this is crazy... they are singing again tonight... I'm almost afraid to feed them in the morning, because there might be more eggs. Lmao!

OH! And just for an idea of just how small these guys are... THEY ARE STILL TOO SMALL FOR MICRO WORMS YA'LL....MICROWORMS! im... just amazed my friend can get food for them...


----------



## Chesh

Heehee, thanks for the update, Gizzy!!! SO happy to hear things are going well for you - and the babies! ^__^

In my experience it isn't getting them to mate that's ever been the hard part, it's the rearing of the tads. I REALLY hope you get some froglets! I'm first in line for some home-grown Gizzy-frogs!!!

. . . you seem to have pretty good luck with this kind of thing, anyway! Baby Axies are swooonish, toO! <3



THANK YOU for taking, posting, and documenting this amazing journey!!! We're _totally_ gonna use _all_ of this for our one-day ADF article!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol! Yes, and as soon as I get my computer back I will get to writing that article. XD


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

So with a second betta death due to fungus, I deep cleaned the tank and gave it completely over to the frogs and puffers , my remaining betta will remain in his own 2.5 gallon tank for the rest of his days. 



30 gallons for six adult frogs and three pea puffers? Yeah, that works. Lol happy happy foggiest and puffers.


----------



## djembekah

Sorry to hear that, but it looks great!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

At this point I am ready to rehome the third betta and just focus on the axolotls, frogs, and puffers... which by the way, I have discovered are one male and two females, so that's awesome actually...


----------



## djembekah

Ohhhhh breed all the things!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol in their current setup the puffer fry will be eaten by both the adult puffers and the frogs before I have any way to get to them. So puffer breeding is not on the table ATM.. However the frog tads are doing very well. The axolotls haven't bred in a while, but that's fine with me, they don't need to right now, lol!


----------



## djembekah

I bet! how many axxies now?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I have 11 axies currently


----------



## djembekah

Nice! Someday I'll have one...


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

You know the best breeder I know is here in washington... She has great prices and her babies are super healthy... I could give her your info if you want. I have six from her and I love all of them.


----------



## djembekah

Nice! it might be awhile before I can get some though. No space!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol yeah, well let me know and I can get you two in touch.


----------



## djembekah

So I'm very probably moving my frog into my betta's tank. Have had a lot of pump issues in frog only tank, and I think itll make life easier on me.


----------



## Laki

From ADF to axxies. I want both so stop.


----------



## djembekah

Never!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lmao not on your life! XD!


----------



## Laki

Haha  I know a few pages back I was really planning for the ADF but now that I'm paying my own utilities I have dropped my tanks down to just the 5g. Fern Back and Milly. I think he ate//killed the 4 shrimp. Either way, I don't want to put frogs in there with a betta. :<


----------



## PetMania

I wish I could get frogs, but I am worried about my bettas getting to them and not being able to feed them because they are hiding and stuff.


----------



## Chesh

Better to be safe than sorry! Look at it this way - you both have many years of tanking ahead of you! If now isn't the right time in your life for frogs (or axxies!), it will come some time in the future! <3


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Sprinkles, my special stumpy lotl, got his arm bitten nearly off when I made the mistake of putting him in a breeder box in the adult tank because his was getting too warm... He is now fighting for his life. 

In other news, my friend who is helping me with the tads says they are just barely starting to get nubs of their hind feet, but unfortunately her cherry shrimp hiked in on some java moss and have been eating the tads, so of the... nearly 100 tads from the first batch, there are now only about 15-20 left, but that's just from the first batch.


----------



## djembekah

My betta will be fine with the frog. He's had several house guests  but I know its a risk if you haven't had your fish with another critter before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Laki

I guess so. I'm done trying to play goddess with my tank. One resident is enough.


----------



## Chesh

It's SO HARD to rear ADF taddies! I think you guys are doing really well - I'll be excited for every one that makes it through! Keep us posted, and keep up the good work. It sounds like it's time for some PICTURES!!! I'm going all swoonish thinking about those bitty nubby feet! *swoons*

This is somewhat off-topic, but I posted pics of my 10g terrarium. 
Not sure if any of you frog lovers also like toads, but if so, come meet my 3 toady babies! ^__^ 
World's Behind Glass (a journal?)


----------



## djembekah

I LOVE THE TOADS caps
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

And a comparison between the youngest and oldest taddies.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Sprinkles passed away last night... I don't know how active I'll be for a while....


----------



## kman

Sorry to hear that! My condolences on your loss.


----------



## Chesh

*HUGS* I'm so sorry to hear such sad news, Gizzy!  Take the time to heal, we all know how hard it can be to lose a finny friend - especially one you've given so much care to. . . T___T

In happier news, oh MY the taddies are adorable, and growing so well! Please pop in from time to time to update us on how they're doing, if you can. . . we'll miss you!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Thank you guys for the support.
I have a taddy update for you 




I can't get over their little faces Omg.


----------



## Chesh

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I can't get over their little faces Omg.


OR THOSE FAT LIL' TUMS!!! Oh my goodness!!!
EXCELLENT SHOTS!!! 
I'm done for the day, nothing else I see on this site can top that!
Thanks for the update!!!

*DIES FROM CUTENESS*


----------



## Laki

Woah. babyfrogsarecute


----------



## kman

LOL they look like grumpy little old fat men!


----------



## djembekah

Ahhhhhhhhh so cute!


----------



## lemmyloop

Oh man, it looks like the little tad is smiling at us! And look at those teeny little arms. Love the little froggy. Thanks for the update post


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I just can't get enough of their fat little bodies...x3


----------



## Laki

Don't let them grow up.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol I wish I could keep them like this.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

UPDATE TIME





these are actually from almost a week ago I just haven't gotten around to getting online...


----------



## Chesh

SQUEEEEEEEEEEE!!! OMGOMG! THEY'RE (almost) FROGS!!! 
How quickly they grow!!! How many have you gotten through to this size? 
SOOOOO CUTE!!! Thanks for the update, Giz!


----------



## djembekah

Omg they're sooooo cute!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Alphahelix

Late to the party but OMG soooocute

I've been meaning to get a few (hence checking out this thread)

I'd happily steal some from you Gizmo, or if you know of any breeders that are good!


----------



## lemmyloop

Gizmothefreaky said:


> UPDATE TIME
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these are actually from almost a week ago I just haven't gotten around to getting online...


I am squealing! Such little cuties. Look at that tiny tail.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Chesh said:


> SQUEEEEEEEEEEE!!! OMGOMG! THEY'RE (almost) FROGS!!!
> How quickly they grow!!! How many have you gotten through to this size?
> SOOOOO CUTE!!! Thanks for the update, Giz!


I believe there are about 10- 15 of this size from the first batch that hatched christmas eve, and then there are two more batches growing from three and six weeks after that. Lol



Alphahelix said:


> Late to the party but OMG soooocute
> 
> I've been meaning to get a few (hence checking out this thread)
> 
> I'd happily steal some from you Gizmo, or if you know of any breeders that are good!


I would be more than happy to send you some, once spring is fully in swing and I am settled in my new place in texas I will be offering these little guys up for adoption.


I am officially moving at the beginning of march, so there might be a few weeks where I am not active but I will be here... and you guys can send me messages or leave stuff here for me.


----------



## lemmyloop

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I would be more than happy to send you some, once spring is fully in swing and I am settled in my new place in texas I will be offering these little guys up for adoption.
> 
> 
> I am officially moving at the beginning of march, so there might be a few weeks where I am not active but I will be here... and you guys can send me messages or leave stuff here for me.


Oh! Looks like we're going to be neighbors. Let me give you an early welcome to TX.

Hehe, this is one of my favorite threads because of the cute little tadpole updates. When I was little I used to call the tads with legs and arms pollywogs.


----------



## Alphahelix

Awesome- ill Definitely take a few, I have 20 gallon tanks and lots of room!

I'll stay tuned


----------



## Chesh

*WOOT*
So many doing so well! I am too excited for spring! ^__^


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I took in another rescue yesterday, I'll post about him in other animals, because he is a snake. Just wanted to let you guys know to keep an eye out for the post!


----------



## Chesh

post a link, Gizzy - congrats on the new arrival!
Put up a frog pic last night: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/other-aquatic-environments-journals/worlds-behind-glass-journal-296682/page7/#post3914250
Silly froggums


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Oh wow Chesh!! That is an amazing picture!!

I finally have my computer back, so i am busy catching up on my not so mobile friendly tasks... Forgot t post the threat last night, but i am uploading to photobucket right now, and i will return with a link as soon as i am through. 


Oh!! EDIT: I went to visit the froglets today... They are now miniature frogs, no more tails!! She managed to get 11 babies to this size, and she will be transitioning them to live blackworms and f/t bloodworms over the next couple days, which means they will be coming home to me by monday!! And i can get loads of pictures. Ill take a couple of shots to compare to my adults too, just so you can see the size difference... They are like the size of my thumb nail, but fully formed and freaking adorable!!! 

Im so excited!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Dang, sorry about the double post... But here is my thread for the snake! 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=3921409#post3921409

Its picture heavy, fair warning. lol


----------



## willow

subscribing :-D


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Hello Willow! Welcome to the wonderful world of ADFs! lol

My thread is pretty much anything goes honestly, while the pain focus is ADF we obviously talk about anything and everything here. 



I have sad news everyone... I got a new filter for my 30 gallon, and the pull was too strong, i forgot to put a sponge on the filter intake, and lost a frog last night...  It is fixed now, but im still pretty sad. I also have to figure out a way to baffle the outflow on the filter, its coming out like a darn waterfall... and the plastic bottle method isnt working.... hmmm.


----------



## willow

hey  thanks for the welcome.
that's so sad about the frog..poor thing and poor you.
i stepped on a froglett,it had escaped,got all fluffy and i thought it was
a spider and where it frightened me i stamped on it :-(
picked it up in tissue and saw it was a hello fire belly toadie:-(
i was so sad for days…i felt sooooo bad.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

oh no! poor thing... You cant be blamed though, you had no way of knowing...


----------



## willow

should have put my glasses on first,and not like me to tred on a spider,i usually put them outside


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah, even still.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Got a couple cool shots, they aren't pretty because they are phone shots into the back of the tank, but they are pretty neat comparisons. 

Male vs female:



And baby vs male vs female:



thought you guys would like these. I need to do a deep clean on the tank soon, and rearrange, so I'll catch everyone out and get a group shot of all 16 frogs.


----------



## Laki

Gizmo! Good timing, 

I plan on getting a new tank tomorrow (if the weather holds up) and it will be walstad method for substrate (soil capped with gravel). Can I get my froggies tomorrow too? My sister was there today and said there are some ADF left, I want to buy 4 before they're gone. 

If the soil doesn't settle right away I can put the 4 frogs in q-tanks or pack them all into my 5 gallon for a night. What do you think? Can they handle a new tank?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I would not add any stock to that tank until it is fully evened out. The soil substrate can put off massive ammonia spikes I've read, so just do the 3 month QT for the frogs and wait for the tank to mature, safer for everyone.  

Of course I'm no expert on planted tanks, so maybe ask also in the planted section how long it'll take that tank to mature and if it's safe to ad stock. I just know frogs are tough, but not tough enough to go with massive spikes.



OH AND ALSO GUYS!!! I POP INTO THE FORUM FIVE OR SIX TIME A DAY TO CHECK THIS THREAD IN PARTICULAR. IF YOU WANT TO ASK ME SOMETHING, DO IT, IT'LL BE ANSWERED WITHIN THE DAY. :3


----------



## Laki

Thanks!


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

No problem hun! I can't wait to see the new tank. :3


----------



## Laki

If I do go tomorrow I think I might still pick up the frogs only because it's SO hard for me to get out to petsmart. I have the 5 gallon, a 3 gallon and a 2.5 gallon to keep them in for a while if I need.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

There you go. I would do that.


----------



## Chesh

Those are gonna be some happy frogs, Laki!!! 
Giz! Yes! GROUP SHOT!!! ^___^


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

lol, i will i will... Just gotta get the energy up to actually get the tank drained and rearranged and such. XD


----------



## LaLaLeyla

Is it normal for adf to have bumps in their armpit area? I have 2 of them and they both have the bumps.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Yep thats normal. It means you have two males.


----------



## LaLaLeyla

Sweet thank you I was a little worried xD


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Lol no reason to be worried, that's what we are here for. :3


----------



## Laki

I got my tank and all the goodies yesterday. There was only one ADF unfortunately, so I got him (maybe it's a girl, I don't know yet). 

I'm bummed because unless I can find a way to run the filter at optimal capacity with half a tank of water, I cannot do a riparium. And the noise of the water splashing out of the filter! I need to find a nice big thing for that to run off, like a gentle waterfall. 

The little frog is waiting in a 2.5 gallon tank by himself. I don't think Petsmart feeds their ADF because when I asked the employee, she redirected the question to what I could feed them. Silly... So all I got were frozen bloodworms for now.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

It's too bad you aren't closer Laki... I have all these juvenile ADFs that need homes.


----------



## Chesh

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I have all these juvenile ADFs that need homes.


I have a home! *dances*
How are they doing??!

Good luck with the setup Laki! Do you have a build thread on it somewhere? I'd love to see!!! *grins*


----------



## Laki

I would take a pile off you so fast Gizmo.  

I have a question. If I cannot do my riparium and need to keep it as an aquarium, will my frogs drown? The water level is pretty high. I would have a lot of plants in there for them to climb and whatnot but I'm worried.


----------



## Chesh

Mine have done well in a 55g and a 29g . . . how tall is it?


----------



## Laki

It's 16" high. I have a basket to put in there and 2 silk plants to accompany the real ones (at least to give the live ones time to grow nice and tall). But they're so itty bitty small! 

The one I got really likes to stretch his legs, when he swims he looks like he's desperate for air or something. The 2.5 gallon is only maybe 8" tall so I doubt he's doing bad.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

lol, they are doing great Chesh, they love the tank... 

I have kept frogs in my big corner tank, when when filled completely is 20 inches deep, and the tank they are in now is 15 inches deep, so dont worry about the depth, they will be fine.  Just give them plenty of hiding spots and stuff to rest on, and they will love you for it.


----------



## Laki

Perfect  Thanks!


----------



## Chesh

Heehee, sounds like a cutie, Laki!
I've read many concerns about tank depth, but mine have all been good swimmers. . . 
I DEMAND PICSSSSSS (from both of you!)

Put up a snap of the frog tank last night - not the best picture, but you can see Specks in there! ^__^


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah! :3

Chesh! I love those pictures.. XD The one with the snail on the frogs head... Ive seen my frogs go really still and the golfball sized mystery snails will just cruise right over them... yeah.


----------



## Chesh

I had_ NEVER _seen that before! Frecks is such an awesome ninja! I grabbed the camera juuuuust in time! *imagines a mystery snail* >.<


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

the mystery snail is really amusing, because sometimes it will just completely cover the frog... lol ive seen it twice today alone... Mystery snails will also eat live blackworms apparently. XD I watched my MS go over to a bunch that i just put in and start chowing down.


----------



## kman

Being subbed to this thread is pushing me closer and closer to buying another tank for home so I can keep an ADF. LOL

My betta tank (with lid) is too small, and my main tank would work well except it has no lid...


----------



## Laki

Speaking of lids, how high can they REALLY jump?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I personally have never had one jump... not out of the water. Now i HAVE had one jump from the net when transporting them from one tank to another, and then very awkwardly they tried to get away... they can jump fairly high on land actually... well considering they are aquatic.


----------



## Chesh

*HOORAY FOR LIDS!!!* 
I don't ever want to find out. . .! 
T___T


----------



## Laki

Haha good. I kept the perforated pieces on my tank, just bent them up halfway to hug the filter and act as an extra splash guard. When I was removing my little frog from his bag he was walking creepily in it once the water was gone.


----------



## Chesh

Laki said:


> Haha good. . . .he was walking creepily in it once the water was gone.


*Imagines zombie ADF*_ STILL CUTE!!! _^___^


----------



## LaLaLeyla

Do you know a good way to feed frogs bloodworms without them getting all over the tank and stuck in the gravel?


----------



## Agent13

LaLaLeyla said:


> Do you know a good way to feed frogs bloodworms without them getting all over the tank and stuck in the gravel?



When I kept ADFs I kept a ceramic bowl in the tank for their food. Took a turkey baster and put it directly and carefully into the bowl . Of course they kick some out of the bowl but often they would eat most of that too. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I would suggest a feeding dish of some sort, they can be trained to come to the dish during feeding. Also i would suggest moving from gravel to sand, it is easier for the sensitive skin of the frog, and if they kick food out of the dish, easier to clean. lol


----------



## JadeSparrow

What all do you feed your adfs other than the frog bites and bloodworms? Sorry if this was asked earlier in the thread... I'm trying to mix up what they eat that might be easier for me to get as I have to order most of their food right now.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

I feed mine pellets, bloodworms, and live blackworms. 

Others here also feed beef heart, i havent in a while but i used to, its a bit messy for my taste. lol


----------



## Agent13

Mysis shrimp is good for them. Daphnia too.. As well as brine shrimp on occasion .


----------



## Laki

Petsmart doesn't have HBH. They only had zoomed. So I only have bloodworms for now. How long can my frog eat that before he needs something extra in his diet?


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

i am feeding the zoomed right now, it is fine.  My guys seem to like it just fine.


----------



## JadeSparrow

Ok I can get Mysis shrimp and beefheart pretty easy here. I wasn't sure so I didn't initially pick them up.


----------



## Gizmothefreaky

Yep! They love that stuff, and it will keep them nice and fat.


----------



## JadeSparrow

Yay lol these guys have quickly stolen my heart which of course causes my betta some anxiety because she thinks I don't pay her enough attention


----------



## Laki

Oh really? Okay, when I go to get my other frogs I'll grab a bottle of zoomed pellets. Or some other frozen food.. I don't like the idea of chopping my own worms and stuff so I look for ones I can just thaw.


----------



## Laki

This is my first little guy/girl. You can see in the last pic that his paws are not fully developed so I don't know his age. At least his paws are developing! I thought for a minute he either had them bitten off or was an ACF.

He is fiesty today! Went to get pics and feed him and all he did was try to fight the camera and turkey baster. Only ate a few worms.


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## Chesh

Oh, my, cuuuuuuuuutttteeeee!!!! <3 <3 <3
Sounds like he's settled right in for you! 
Does s/he have a name yet?!!!
*grinsforfroggies*


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## Laki

Thanks! I find myself going into the room just to see how he is. He moves a lot and has become accustomed to the quarentine tank. Tomorrow I am getting 4 more ADF (hopefully!) and this weekend they'll all move into the 20 gallon. 

No name yet. I was reluctant to name him anything because I'll never tell him from the rest! Maybe I'll just pick out 5 names. They can argue over them lol


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## Chesh

Heehee... five frogs are cuter than one! I think you'll be able to tell them apart, I've never had trouble telling one from the other, their markings are very distinct... maybe I got lucky with the four I've had.


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## kman

Laki said:


> Thanks! I find myself going into the room just to see how he is. He moves a lot and has become accustomed to the quarentine tank. Tomorrow I am getting 4 more ADF (hopefully!) and this weekend they'll all move into the 20 gallon.
> 
> No name yet. I was reluctant to name him anything because I'll never tell him from the rest! Maybe I'll just pick out 5 names. They can argue over them lol


LOL we do that with fish names. Especially for schooling fish, you can seldom tell any of them apart.  We have 7 Golden White Cloud Tetras named for the seven dwarves, 4 Rummynose tetras named for the Beatles (John, George, Paul and Ringo ... Ringo is the ugly one, else we can't tell them apart!) and 6 neon tetras named for six of the Smurfs (blue and red, one of them must be Papa!).  

We also have some fish that are more distinctive and have their own names (the Bettas of course always have a personalized name), but with the smaller schooling fish, you can rarely tell. :lol:


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## Chesh

>.< Ringo is my favourite! <3


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## Laki

Haha someone asked me the other day who was the "ugly" Beatle because all boy bands have one. I said Ringo though I know people love him. 

My sister only got one adf for me, that's all they had left again! And you're right chesh, I can tell instantly who is who. I out everybody in the 20 gallon last night. Fernback paid little attention to them thankfully. I'll try feeding them tonight. I put a white feeding shell in there so hopefully they'll associate that with food. 

A scary thing too, my first frog jumped out of the net when I was trying to cup him and he plunked off the rim of the tank. I thought he was going to die but after a while he recovered. Poor thing. They're in therenjoe food good so hopefully no more injuries!


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## Chesh

Oh my goodness! I'm so glad he's okay! O.O 
My frogs are trained to eat from my fingers, so they just let me catch them and carry them over, heehee sweet lil' things! ^__^

. . . _George_ is the ugly Beatle! >.<


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## Chesh

*HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GIZZY!*


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## Laki

My tank is too deep for me to interact with them :/ I saw one today but now both are hiding. I don't know whether or not I should put bloodworms in because I don't want them to spoil the water. How good are their noses? 

I put pellets in last night but had to leave for a friends birthday dinner. When we got back around 2 am FernBack was looking pretty fat so I think he found and ate the frog food. 

On the plus, I did just find 3 male RCS in the 5 gallon I'm about to empty!

Happy Birthday Gizmo!!


----------



## Keltera

i have three ADF! two males and a female. the female has bloat but it goes up and down. i keep the tank clean, keep them fed. she still seems happy even if she does look twice the size she should be! i caught the males singing last night, they sound like little buzz saws!


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## Keltera

Laki said:


> . How good are their noses?


there noses are fantastic, its there eyes that are not very good. i can watch mine digging at the bottom after blood worms and sucking them up once there noses have found them!


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## Gizmothefreaky

Thanks for the b-day wishes! :3 ilu guys! 




Keltera said:


> i have three ADF! two males and a female. the female has bloat but it goes up and down. i keep the tank clean, keep them fed. she still seems happy even if she does look twice the size she should be! i caught the males singing last night, they sound like little buzz saws!


The female could just be normally sized... I know my two females (who are CONSTANTLY BREEDING... i swear, new eggs every three days.) look absolutely huge, simply because they are full of eggs all the time. If your males are singing, that means they are breeding. Every night, like clockwork, my males all start singing at around 2-2:30 am. and without fail, every couple days, i find eggs.


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## Keltera

They have not bred in a long time. Its been confirmed she has bloat. He males used to sing all the time but now its a rare thing.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Would you mind posting a picture of her? Are you treating the bloat with anything? Are there other fish in the tank? 

I know you said its been confirmed, i just want to see for myself, because i had a frog die from what could have been bloat a couple years ago, i know what it looks like at its fatal stage. 

If you could post a picture from the front, one from the side, and one from the top, that would be super helpful. Thanks!


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## Keltera

Those are the pictures on that thread, I JUST deleted them off my phone yesterday.




































http://s5.photobucket.com/user/Keltera/media/VID_20131205_2158151_zpsb9169524.mp4.html


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## Gizmothefreaky

Oh yeah, goodness, that looks like bloat alright.. What are you treating her with?


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## Keltera

Honestly? Ive just been keeping her tank good and clean as I have only just been able to get some temp job for some hours. She has not gotten any worse in fact sometimes its gets better. When I get my first pay I can go yo the LFS and get the proper meds.


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## Traceuse24

*African Dwarf Frog and shedding*

Hello there. I have an African Dwarf frog named Leto, she's super cute and is being housed with one of my male Betta's, Zeus. 

I was told by Petsmart that these frogs shed their skin as they grow. I have a female so I know she's growing. I have had her for about a month or so and I have not seen her shed. She has gotten more social since I got her. She would always hide and stuff, not I can almost always immediately find her lounging about the front of the tank or behind my terracotta pot if she wants to sleep (or snuggled under a leaf). 
I have never seen her actually shed. I have seen her get pale for about a day, maybe pale-er the second day, about every 2 weeks, but by the time I go to class and come back, she's not pale anymore. 

Does she molt while I'm not looking? 
Zeus doesn't give her much of an issue, they play around and he'll lurk behind her, but when she wants to sleep he usually sleeps near by.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Keltera said:


> Honestly? Ive just been keeping her tank good and clean as I have only just been able to get some temp job for some hours. She has not gotten any worse in fact sometimes its gets better. When I get my first pay I can go yo the LFS and get the proper meds.


Well good luck... She is not as bad as some i have seen. 



Traceuse24 said:


> Hello there. I have an African Dwarf frog named Leto, she's super cute and is being housed with one of my male Betta's, Zeus.
> 
> I was told by Petsmart that these frogs shed their skin as they grow. I have a female so I know she's growing. I have had her for about a month or so and I have not seen her shed. She has gotten more social since I got her. She would always hide and stuff, not I can almost always immediately find her lounging about the front of the tank or behind my terracotta pot if she wants to sleep (or snuggled under a leaf).
> I have never seen her actually shed. I have seen her get pale for about a day, maybe pale-er the second day, about every 2 weeks, but by the time I go to class and come back, she's not pale anymore.
> 
> Does she molt while I'm not looking?
> Zeus doesn't give her much of an issue, they play around and he'll lurk behind her, but when she wants to sleep he usually sleeps near by.


Its great that your betta and frog get along! 
Yes, she is shedding and then eating the shed, as all ADF do. It usually only takes minutes for them to completely shed, so you could leave the room and get something to eat and she will have shed before you get back. In all my years keeping them, i think i can count on one hand the number of frogs i have actually watched shed,


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## Laki

"and then they eat the shed"... A good reason why they do it in private! I don't want to see that! 

Sad news, the ADF that I bought 2 weeks ago seems to be in poor health. I found him earlier and noticed he has a red eye. I didn't think much of it, thought maybe he poked it or something but now he's listless and floaty so I put him in a cup with a little water floating in the tank.


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## Traceuse24

JadeSparrow said:


> Yay lol these guys have quickly stolen my heart which of course causes my betta some anxiety because she thinks I don't pay her enough attention


My ADF and betta (one of them) live together just fine. They are so cute together


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## Traceuse24

Gizmothefreaky said:


> Well good luck... She is not as bad as some i have seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Its great that your betta and frog get along!
> Yes, she is shedding and then eating the shed, as all ADF do. It usually only takes minutes for them to completely shed, so you could leave the room and get something to eat and she will have shed before you get back. In all my years keeping them, i think i can count on one hand the number of frogs i have actually watched shed,


Well that sucks ! I was hoping to see her shed and eat it someday. I was looking for a video of it happening but no such luck!


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## Traceuse24

Laki said:


> This is my first little guy/girl. You can see in the last pic that his paws are not fully developed so I don't know his age. At least his paws are developing! I thought for a minute he either had them bitten off or was an ACF.
> 
> He is fiesty today! Went to get pics and feed him and all he did was try to fight the camera and turkey baster. Only ate a few worms.


OMG! My frog, Leto, looks like a little piggy compared to your frog baby. She loves to eat, and if she doesn't get enough she tries to go after my betta. So I have to make sure she has enough food


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## Traceuse24

Gizmothefreaky said:


> I would suggest a feeding dish of some sort, they can be trained to come to the dish during feeding. Also i would suggest moving from gravel to sand, it is easier for the sensitive skin of the frog, and if they kick food out of the dish, easier to clean. lol


I read on another site that gravel is better than sand because adf's can accidentally swallow sand and wont be able to digest it


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## Gizmothefreaky

Traceuse24 said:


> I read on another site that gravel is better than sand because adf's can accidentally swallow sand and wont be able to digest it


No, sand is best, they will spit out the sand if they get it in their mouth. But what they dont spit out will pass through, where as if they swallow a small rock, it wont be able to do that and they will die. Besides that, if the gravel is too large, they can get their feet stuck and drown.


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## Traceuse24

Gizmothefreaky said:


> No, sand is best, they will spit out the sand if they get it in their mouth. But what they dont spit out will pass through, where as if they swallow a small rock, it wont be able to do that and they will die. Besides that, if the gravel is too large, they can get their feet stuck and drown.


Well then ... :-< Mt little Leto is going to have to deal with this gravel because sand will defeat the purpose of an undergravel filter


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## Laki

I have natural colored gravel in my tank (because I hate white sand and cannot afford black sand) my frogs are fine on it (I assume)

I was thinking about that today and what kind of substrate would be in the East Asian rivers that ADF naturally live? I'm not worried about my gravel honestly because all the pieces are pretty big.


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## Traceuse24

Laki said:


> I have natural colored gravel in my tank (because I hate white sand and cannot afford black sand) my frogs are fine on it (I assume)
> 
> I was thinking about that today and what kind of substrate would be in the East Asian rivers that ADF naturally live? I'm not worried about my gravel honestly because all the pieces are pretty big.


Same but I figure when she's the size of a full blown female, I might have to change her tank. 
For now she'll be in here


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## Fin2you

Hey everyone it's awesome there is an ADF thread on here! We have 3; Freckles, Speckles & Dotty (9 & 7 year old kids what can I say?)! 
I would love to post picts but each time I try it fails! 
While these guys are my kid's I find myself checking up on them all the time! & wondering if they r getting enough to eat! 2 are nice & plump & big & the newest one is on his way too probably doubled in size in the 3weeks since joining our community tank!


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## Betta Nut

Hi frog people!

I've had my little ADF for a couple weeks now, in a sorority tank. Sand substrate. Everyone gets along fine. I am wondering if anyone else here has a frog in with their sorority, and if so, how have you been feeding?
The current routine for me, is not feeding girls til Frog (I honestly can't come up with a name for her) comes up to the front and starts looking at me like "Hey you, person-thing, I'm hungry!" I then sprinkle the girls food on the top, and then take a good sized pinch of the zoo med frog pellets and let them fall around Frog's head. Frog will snatch one as it's falling past her nose, then sit there contemplating life, not eating the rest, til the girls finish their meal and start poking around Frog for all those yummy pellets. Frog then gets territorial and protects her food, still not eating, til the girls have snuck in and pecked the bottom so many times nothing is left. THEN she starts scooping up sand where her food was, sifting it around and spitting it out. She gets so involved shooing girls away, she doesn't stop to try to eat, til they finish it off and leave.
End result: sorority is getting obese, and Frog, while not starving, is thinner than I'd like.
She's not afraid of my hand, so the obvious solution is to hand feed bloodworms when I get some. So after all that, should I feed her about a pinch worth every day, one time? Or has someone found a trick to pellet feeding with greedy fish.

I've browsed through a fair amount of this thread, but missed anything that might have been said about this.


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## Dakieda

Betta Nut said:


> Hi frog people!
> 
> I've had my little ADF for a couple weeks now, in a sorority tank. Sand substrate. Everyone gets along fine. I am wondering if anyone else here has a frog in with their sorority, and if so, how have you been feeding?
> The current routine for me, is not feeding girls til Frog (I honestly can't come up with a name for her) comes up to the front and starts looking at me like "Hey you, person-thing, I'm hungry!" I then sprinkle the girls food on the top, and then take a good sized pinch of the zoo med frog pellets and let them fall around Frog's head. Frog will snatch one as it's falling past her nose, then sit there contemplating life, not eating the rest, til the girls finish their meal and start poking around Frog for all those yummy pellets. Frog then gets territorial and protects her food, still not eating, til the girls have snuck in and pecked the bottom so many times nothing is left. THEN she starts scooping up sand where her food was, sifting it around and spitting it out. She gets so involved shooing girls away, she doesn't stop to try to eat, til they finish it off and leave.
> End result: sorority is getting obese, and Frog, while not starving, is thinner than I'd like.
> She's not afraid of my hand, so the obvious solution is to hand feed bloodworms when I get some. So after all that, should I feed her about a pinch worth every day, one time? Or has someone found a trick to pellet feeding with greedy fish.
> 
> I've browsed through a fair amount of this thread, but missed anything that might have been said about this.


I believe someone said something about a 'feeding dish' a couple pages back.

This website tells of a simple way to feed them. :3
http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/id13.html


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## Laki

Yea, I think ADF can starve in community tanks if they're not given time to find out their food. They don't eat like bettas, instead it seems they take their time. 

I only have 1 betta in my tank so I trick him into a cup and float him for an hour while I squirt the bloodworms or pellets into a little shell dish for the ADF. So far he hasn't realised it's there but he's got a belly so I'm sure he's been eating here and there. I never saw him in the dish which makes me think they'll scoop food into their mouth and sit there for a while "contemplating" haha

I'm hopfully getting the rest of my ADF stock today (I have been trying for 2 weeks but they always sell out as SOON as they get them in) so I'll find out more about ADF feeding. Just my observations with 2 ADF up till now.


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## Betta Nut

I did get a feeding dish last week, but it just made it easier for the sorority to get all the food. At least when it was sprinkled on the bottom near the frog, a few bits would hide in the DHG there and I think she'd get one or two later, hence why she isn't starving. I'm just going to get some frozen food to hand feed tonight. Is once a day ok? I don't think I'll have the time to do it in the mornings before work.


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## Laki

Once a day feeding is perfectly fine! I only feed every second day.


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## Chesh

Hey Fin! My three are Freckles, Speckles, and Spot - thanks to *my* kiddos - who are now 3 and 6! Sounds like they're eating and growing well!

@BettaNut - I've never run a sorority, but know from experience that feeding frogs in community can be tricky. As Laki said, there are many suggestions to be found if you read back on this thread. 
I hand feed mine, or use a turkey baster - ADF will quickly learn where the food is coming from, and once you find something that works for your crew, be consistent with it. It gets easier with time.
Some frogs will learn to be a *bit* aggressive, and nip at fins to defend their food - while others will hide away and literally starve to death. Always a good idea to keep a close eye on things in there!


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## Laki

So any advice on how to get them to eat out of a dish? I feed every 2 days and have been primarily aiming for the shell/dish. However, after an hour the food is still there. They can be seen climbing about like they can smell it but nothing. So I moved the dish and hauled out the large plant so they would be encouraged towards the food... still nothing. 

I want to make sure they're eating so I have been using a turkey baster and putting food in front of them after about an hour of having food in the tank. I am worried if it keeps up this way I'll either have to just feed messily willy-nilly or they will starve. I can only keep FernBack in a cup for so long.


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## Chesh

Hey y'all! Sorry to have been a bit MIA lately - and Gizzy is mid-move, I believe. 

Laki... it may take a little bit for them to get used to a new feeding routine - I've found that it's easiest to train them in a solo tank, before they hit the community - but that isn't always possible. 
What_ I_ would do is what you've been doing, more or less. ^__^

Once my frogs learn to associate the baster with food, they start to come out for it. I don't dish-feed, but from there, I'd just get them used to being fed in one particular spot - and then start feeding in the bowl from there, maybe?

ADF don't see very well, so it can take them a while to find food if you just drop it in. They're fantastic hunters - but they rely on their ability to detect prey moving in the water, and on scent. Mine come out more quickly when I disturb the surface just a little bit at feeding time, maybe that will help you, too.

I think Gizzy feeds with a bowl, hopefully she'll be by soon with more experienced input. 

Hand feeding is so much fun, though! You should try it! I had mine in a 55g tank for a while - it wasn't too deep if I was wearing a tank-top)


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## Laki

Thanks Chesh! I might give them 2 nights off (I ussually feed every second day but last night they all got bloated) then I'll use the baster and not the dish until they all come out. I thought it would be easier! 

I wouldn't call my tank a "community" since the only fish in it is FernBack lol


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## Chesh

Still a community of frogs and *A* fish! ^_^
I feed mine every other, or (usually) every third day, too. 
Good luck with the training!!!

... did you get your new(er) newbies??!


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## Laki

Haha I guess so! I love my little community 

I only have 5. Probably going to keep it at 5, at least for now, because I don't want to overstock the bottom column. It's probably fine but I want to add to my mid-top column now! And the 5 I have are being shy butts and are always hiding under the driftwood!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I actually feed mine just all over the tank... The only time i used a bowl was when they were in with more fish. 

Unfortunately during the move all of my frogs passed away, all 25 of them. So i no longer have any frogs. I also lost the three puffer fish as well. So no more tropical fish for me. All i have left are my lotls... well as far as aquatic pets go.


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## Laki

Holy crap Gizmo, I am SO SORRY to hear this!!


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## Chesh

*cries*


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## Gizmothefreaky

Yeah i was devistated to find them all passed away... I dont even understand what happened.


----------



## Wiggyl

*Frog bites v. betta pellets*

Planning on adding a couple of ADFs to my 20G. I'm wondering what is different between frog bites and fish pellets. I've looked at the ingredients and they look very similar...why would frog bites not cause intestinal damage?

I'm planning on mostly feeding the frogs frozen I think, but still...

Thanks!


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## Laki

I don't know exactly, but my guess would be protein content. ADF are mostly carnivorous and require high protein in their diet. However, when I feed my tetra's sinking flakes sometimes the frogs come out and sniff around in the gravel trying to get some too.


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## IXOYE

Down the road, eventually, I may be interested in these little frogs, with my betta, or perhaps even just a couple kept with a divider, in a 20g long. I'm wondering if my "standard" aquarium rocks are too small, it is common for them to accidently swallow rocks? That WOULD be horrid. If kept seperately, they could have a bare bottom... But just thinking this through. I would sure hate for either frogs or betta to become too nippy. Hate this idea... So, just toying with the idea for right now.... Love all this information, it's so important to be equipped and prepared. I keep thinking how adorable these little frogs are, and setting up a new tank with them in mind, is better now- rather than later on!!!!

Perhaps I'll see how huge this tank becomes with only one Betta, and eventually decide to "expand"- OR "divide and conquer" - HA!

Thanks for all the help, as I try to think this through. I need help!!!!


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## IXOYE

One idea...

so I'm sitting at work (it's a quiet day) and sorting through my (old) collection of white rocks, pulling out anything that isn't nice and bright. Surprised how much "other" is mixed in, since I have the time to sort before needing them in the tank....

Thinking, for the froggie, perhaps I can use some colindar for sorting the tiny rocks, and just keeping the bigger ones, in case I get a froggie or two later on. So, Not sure what size I'm looking for, exactly?


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## Laki

That's a good idea with the colander! I just bought a large bag of regular natural colored aquarium gravel and none of my frogs were able to put them in their mouths. ADF have small mouths I have a hard time believing this myth circulating about them swallowing gravel. But maybe I buy a brand with regular sized rocks and no small ones, I don't know.


----------



## Wiggyl

Can I feed canned hermit crab food to an ADF as variety from frozen bloodworms?

This is what I had in mind: http://www.petsmart.com/reptile/foo...d36-21806/cat-36-catid-500004?var_id=36-21806

Thanks!


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## Laki

I wouldn't feed food made for hermit crabs because crabs require more calcium and less protein than african dwarf frogs. Crabs are exo-skeletal scavenging omnivores whereas frogs are amphibious carnivores. Petsmart sells zoomed pellets for aquatic frogs but all 5 of mine would rather starve. They nibble on it but they LOVE bloodworms. Always buy frozen worms for them because freeze dried has had the best nutrients dried out and live can contaminate your tank. If you're looking for variety, get a variety of bloodworms, blackworms, mosquito, daphnia and other types of worm.

They get so nasty when they eat! I watched my 2 biggest guard the feed dish today and they were well fed at this point- their bellies were so swollen from all the food that they could barely get to the top for air. All 5 managed to eat in the end but wow, I couldn't believe how many worms they all ate!


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## IXOYE

*FAKE Sand?*

So, the sand from Petco, seems to be fake sand, tiny but rough? Is this ok? I don't want black or white, not sure what I'll end up with, but this doesn't look like real sand. Will it be OK for frogs? I may take back the black and look for white pebble size gravel, if I can find that... decisions, decisions. I don't have a frog, just setting up new tank for Betta, with hopes to eventually add ADfrog. I hear they are really hard to contain, keep in tank- and not sure if my Betta would even tolerate a tank mate. But it's a large tank, 20 L- just thinking ahead, since I can! Thank you all! The "real" sand seems so expensive, comparatively.... I need so much (?).....


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## nclnchls

In the future I hope to have a couple ADF in my tank. It's a divided 10g with a betta on each side, though. Should I have two ADF on one side, or do you think I could maybe cut the divider at the bottom just enough for them to come through as they please, but not the bettas? That's probably a bad idea, but I'd just like them to be able to roam around more and be together.


----------



## IXOYE

nclnchls said:


> In the future I hope to have a couple ADF in my tank. It's a divided 10g with a betta on each side, though. Should I have two ADF on one side, or do you think I could maybe cut the divider at the bottom just enough for them to come through as they please, but not the bettas? That's probably a bad idea, but I'd just like them to be able to roam around more and be together.


I really like this idea of a divided tank, with space for frogs to swim through both sides, but not Betta. I want to know if this is possible, it seems Betta's are able to squeeze where they want to, no?


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## Laki

I wouldn't do it. Any excuse for the bettas to pay attention to the frogs passing back and forth is reason enough for them to squeeze under as well. Not worth it. It's a cute idea and I considered it on my old 5 gallon but I would not recommend it. A 10 gallon could probably support 4 frogs, 2 on each side, but bear in mind that if the bettas got agitated at each other through the divider they would probably take it out on the first thing that moved in their water; ADF breathe surface air so they would be the targets.


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## Chesh

Ixoye, I'm not sure what sand you're talking about - my guess is that its probably fine, but I'd be happy to look into it further if you can get me a brand name?  I use Tahitian moon sand in my tanks, which is a bit coarser than many other types of sand, and my frogs (and loaches!) have always been just fine with it. Have you looked into the sand carried by Home Depot, or your local hardware store? I've used normal play sand on several tanks now with no issues - you have to rinse it for ages, the stuff is pretty dirty, but once that's taken care of, it's inert, won't affect your water parameters, and only costs around $3-$5 a bag - for far more than you'd ever need for a 10g tank 

I agree that it seems a bit difficult to believe about frogs eating gravel, I feel the same way - and currently do have my frogs over a larger, rounded 'natural pebble' river gravel. That said, I feed my frogs from above, and not on the substrate. If you've ever fed them from the ground, they have a pounce and nom way of eating. . . and I've seen them pull up a mouthful of sand back when I fed that way. I wouldn't be so quick to discount this concern, but I do suspect that it doesn't happen as often as people will have us believe. Best to be safe than sorry, in my opinion. . . 

Frogs aren't difficult to keep in a tank, but you do have to make sure to have a tightly-fitting cover, and take care to cover up any gaps that they could escape from. Personally, I keep the water level a bit lower in my frog tanks than I do my other tanks - which would suit a betta just fine. 

Keeping frogs with Betta can be so touch-and-go, from what I've seen. It really depends on individual temperaments, and you can't predict how these things will go - that's aside from feeding. With a divider in a 10g, you have the option of separating them if there are any problems - definitely a good idea! I always recommend a back-up plan for these little community tanks - nice to have one "built in" ^___^

Good luck!!! So nice to see people doing their research beforehand - can't wait until you get froggies of your own, they're such amazing critters.


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## xStatic

Just today I have put a new betta in with my gf's ADF. The frog is mostly hiding in a small space beneath the filter but the betta has been chasing him and nipping at him. I am going to try and find something to provide the frog with some more hiding places, but I don't know what else to do. I don't have any other tanks that I could but the frog in. I'm not sure if the frog will be okay or if the betta will end up hurting the frog too badly?

Thanks!


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## IXOYE

Love all the info for the frogs. I decided to take back black (course) Petco brand sand, and use the left over (@20 lbs) white (small) gravel. My betta appears to be aggressive, in that he absolutely FREAKS at his reflection. I doubt that he would leave another fish or frog alone and I'm just not ready to divide the new tank right now, but, definitely keeping all the great info in mind for the future! Yes, it's much better to be, aware, forearmed and forewarned, no doubt! Immensely appreciate this helpful community, SO MUCH!


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## Wiggyl

I don't know if this is written anywhere in the other posts, or if maybe we can edit the first posting, but I just learned by terrible experience that some ADFs eat betta fins. 

I just got an ADF and after all of the extensive research I did, all I ever found was that you have to be careful about the betta's behavior around the frog and not vice versa. 2 days in the tank with my betta were enough to destroy his caudal and part of his anal fin. I actually caught the frog jump up and rip a piece of fin off. 

I just wish that I had found somewhere that would have said this when considering putting ADFs and bettas together, or else I never would have gotten one. Now the poor frog has to live in a 1g quarantine I have makeshifted, my betta's going to have to heal for a while and I'm just very discouraged about getting tankmates.

Edit: I do see one line in the initial posting about ADFs eating fins. I wish it were more prominent. ]=


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## Briz

I wouldn't say they eat fins but rather see something moving in front of them and test to see if it is food. They can also accidentally shred fins by swimming near the betta. I have seen this information in various locations besides this thread. I am sorry that this happened to you though. A betta with short fins (like a plakat) would probably be safest with ADF tankmates.


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## Fin2you

My 3 ADF are "alpha's" in the community tank. They have chased the clown pleco out of it's hiding spot, the 2 female beta's know to swim the other way & the Rasbora school stay outta their way! Guess I just got lucky! 
I am going to be setting up a little Tetra Cube tank in my new office, & I think I will get myself a frog as a tankmate to a new male beta. My kids have me hooked on these little guys, I find myself staring at the tank until I catch sight of all 3 frogs at the same time!


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## Laki

Haha I'm the same way, except I try to find 5 ADF in a 20g! 

Just wondering, how large of a tetra cube are you getting for your office??


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## Fin2you

Laki said:


> Haha I'm the same way, except I try to find 5 ADF in a 20g!
> 
> Just wondering, how large of a tetra cube are you getting for your office??


I have a 20gal & there are 2 dark common, 5 orangish & 1 white white albino Bristolnose pleco baby's that I'm constantly trying to keep track of so I totally know what you mean! 

The Tetra cube is the older style that's like 2.5-3gal not the little itty bitty 1/2 gal crap they sell now! I should dig it out of the storage room & see if it's still in 1 piece LOL


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## Laki

Okay that's good! It will be a nice office addition :0 I don't know if I would personally put 1 frog and 1 betta in there only for lack of getaway space for alone time but that's me. There are others here who have successfully done 3 gallons with frogs/betta.


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## Fin2you

Oh for sure! & if the male I get isn't "frog friendly" there is plenty of room in the community tank for another frog if need be!


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## LittleWatty

Dang, it feels forever since I've posted here. There were a lot of problems in my life for a while though, with a loss of several pets, the death of a family member, and having to move across the country. I'm moving again in just a few days, but otherwise things have gotten much better, so I wanted to stop by and share some good news!

I HAVE TADPOLES.

Right now, I only have two surviving taddies, both from different hatches. The pictures below are all of my oldest, which I think is two and a half months now. With my job, I have reliable access to baby brine shrimp, so I've been able to keep up with feeding them!


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## Zuzu

Now that's just ridiculously adorable.


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## Laki

Oh my god o-o


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## athenr3134

Wow I haven't posted in a really long time either but I no longer have fish just birds. Work is too crazy for me to keep up with fish along with birds lol. So stopping by to say hello


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## charliegill110

wow i just read all 173 pages :O it took me a few days.i really wish this thread was still super active though =/ i loved reading everyones frog adventures...


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## athenr3134

*Too busy*

Well I now have a cat named beauty and a son on the way!! No more animals for me!


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## justin31love

I know this thread isn't really active anymore, but I was wondering if I could possibly get anyone's opinion of having 2 ADFs and a betta in a 5.5 gallon tank? Is this completely undoable and over stocked? I am in college, so I can try to get a 10 gallon if it can fit. But Also if i were to do a 10 gallon, could I do more than 2 frogs with a Betta? thanks!


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## miscanon

On one of the first few pages, she(?) answers this question- she said 2 frogs and a betta in a 5.5 gal is getting close to/at the max for bioload, but as long as you're diligent with water quality, it shouldn't be a problem (if everyone gets along).

I think if you did a 10 gallon you could do a betta with 3-4 frogs, but I have no experience with that, so that's just my opinion.


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## justin31love

Thanks! Just gonna take a shot and ask if anyone has personally had success keeping 2 or more ADFs with a Betta?


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## Laki

I kept 4 ADF with my betta but it was in a well planted 20 gallon. I wouldn't do anything less than 10g for 2 frogs and a betta.


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## allied123

I currently have 2 frogs and a betta in a fluval spec 5 (5.5 gallons) and am adding a third frog after his (3 month) quarantine is over in 2 weeks. As is though the tank is cycled and has about 10-20 nitrates a week though I do large water changes every week regardless. It is moderately planted with crypts, anubis, moss balls, and a just got a few large java fern.


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## charliegill110

i have 3 adf and a betta in a 10 but i've also got a filter rated for a 20g... but russeltheshihtzu on here has 6 adf and a betta in a 10g as well. 

aqua advisor says you can have 1 male betta and 4 adf in a 5.5 with only having to change 27% of water a week, and using a topfin 10 filter. http://aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?...AqSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple


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## RussellTheShihTzu

Three in a 5 or 5.5 would be my maximum. Six is the maximum in a 10 gallon. I wouldn't keep ADF in anything less than a 5; but that's because I wouldn't keep fewer than three. The bioload of an ADF is about that of a larger Tetra but not that of a Betta.

It's a lot easier if you start your own thread; that way more people will see it and if issues come up you have a history of sorts for us to go back over.

Welcome to the Forum, Jason! :wave:


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## charliegill110

I know this thread isn't really active anymore, but thus seems to be the place to post frog pics. So. Here I am lol. The left is June 2015 and right is February 2016.


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## andreamargo

*Betta question*

I realize this thread may or may not be active anymore, but I have a question!

I've tried googling everywhere about tank sizes and whatnot, and keep getting mixed results. I currently have one betta fish (presumed to be male) in a 3 Gallon tank. He's not very aggressive, he doesn't really flare up when I show him himself in a mirror, etc. Would my tank be large enough for one African Dwarf Frog? If yes, any recommendations about cleaning and cycling my tank? I currently do about a 20-30% water change once a week, with a 100% water change one a month, changing out the filter sheet thing as needed. The people at the pet store said I could definitely do it, but I obviously do not trust them lolol


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## RussellTheShihTzu

Welcome to the Forum! :wave:

ADF need a minimum of three as they are very social and can stress if there's only one or two. A three gallon isn't large enough for the proper number. You'd need at the least a five.


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## andreamargo

Thanks for your help! I'll make sure to wait on the frog(s) until I'm able to upgrade tanks!


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## Hannibalic30

thanks for info guys!
Its helps me too much!


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