# Walmart-Petco-Petsmart ''Rescues''



## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

I have been debating since a while whether or not to write this post as this is a touchy subject. I apologize in advance if some of the issues I will state here make some people uncomfortable.

Some of you, all good people who means well I am more than certain, use the term ‘’rescue’’ when you actually buy a fish (or a pet) from pet store (or Wal-Mart) because you think you are helping one fish. (or two, or three, or whatever). 

Let me say something before jumping on your high horses and freak out, throw stones at me or whatever, I am not talking here about stores that actually care about their fishes and where they come from. Some Betta farms are actually decent and try to make sure the fish arrive at destination safely, as much as some ‘’breeders’’ from aquabid will send you a betta you paid good money for, in crappy condition so the fish arrives either dead, or dying because they don’t bother using a good shipping system. There are rotten eggs in both areas. 

No, buying a fish (or any pet for that matter) is not ‘’rescuing’’ it’s in fact, quite the opposite. You, unknowingly, keep the circle of abuse, awful breeding farm condition (whether Bettas that were shipped in lousy condition or puppies from puppy mills, or kitten) 

If you want to rescue, rescue for real, go to a shelter or a real rescue center, you’ll be surprised how many of them actually -have- betta and needs people to adopt them or foster. Have a couple of hours a week? Volunteer! you have a spare tank and already got a QT? Donate it! Know about fish health more than John Doe? call your vet, tell them you're able to help if people need some advice (trust me, some of them will love that!)

‘’rescuing’’ a fish from Wal-Mart (or petco, whatever store that don’t give a poop), even if you paid ‘’half price because it was dying in an half empty, ammonia toxic cup’’ will keep the circle going, Wal-Mart pays peanut for the fishes, selling it even 1$ is doing a profit. They will keep buying fish from lousy farms, where 75% of them will die in shipping and almost none will be really healthy (there is such a thing as inbreeding fishes you know?)

Want to help those fish in particular? Write up to the management, go public, explain to people the care the betta needs. (I remember reading a post here about a user actually talking to the fish manager at her Wal-Mart and the guy took notes) they aren’t all bad people; some of them want to make things better for the fishes! 

I can almost guaranty you that 99% of the people you’ll approach won’t give a flying rat butt and will still buy (or sell, hey I was able to make a pet store stop selling puppy mills dogs, instead concentrating on rescues!) but even if you make ONE person understand, it’s a small victory. Even more so in the case of a fish manager at a wal-mart! (Kudos to that by the way!) Even if –one- person decide to buy the 3 or 5 gallons instead of those awful tiny, unheated/unfiltered bowl, it’s something.

Now, I am far from being a reference in betta care, I’m still learning a lot with my two boys... but I do know about rescues and animal welfare (years of experience working in veterinary clinics and even more as a rehab behaviorist for dogs (both private and for rescues) And I do know ‘’rescuing’’ any living creature in a commercial, profit driven place, isn’t rescuing, it’s keeping the money going in the wrong pockets. 

People like us can make things change, the best example is our city. I live in a province that’s the north American capital of animal abuse and puppy mills, but it’s slowly changing because of people (some totally crazy!) and the social media. A couple of weeks ago the government finally did a first step and will give licence to breeders (aka the puppy mills will be regulated) it wont eliminate the problem, but it’s a small step.

Same goes for the fishes, years ago people flushed them in the toilet when they were sick, not even trying ((after all, they are just fishes...I can get another one eh?)) 

But when I worked in the clinic, I had more and more calls about people asking what they can do ((to which my answer was ‘’wt-fudge, how the hell should I know, we treat dogs and cats)) and at the end I referred them to a store I knew would help them. People are changing and its with the youth (lots of teens here) that it will start.

Basically, unless you get the fish for free, you’re not helping; you’re keeping the crap wheel turning. And again, I do know all of you mean well and are doing this from the kindness of your heart, you are all good people and want to make a better place for fishes and animals... (Well... almost all I’m sure there’s one or two jerks who don’t care ) 

But next time you see a dying fish in a store, try to teach the guys (or girls!) there a bit and negotiate to get the fish out of their hands. 

Sorry for the ‘’rant’’ I couldn’t keep my mouth shut longer 

Cheers!


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

Brave post. Totally right... but it is so hard to leave them in the cups of doom. I wonder what people can do to not feed the cycle, but also satisfy the bleeding heart-ness...


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## 16kehresmann (Feb 5, 2014)

While I agree wIth what your saying 100% at the same time I do not agree wIth it. I view fish more as individuals than in bulk. I don't think a fish should suffer for "a greater cause" since there are no real "betta rescues" and I don't know about other areas but my shelter doesn't take in fish. Of any kind. So by no means will I just overlook dieing fish and think oh well since you were forced in this crap of a situation I'm gOing to let you die because people are terrible. Even if you get a betta from someone who no longer wants it or from a shelter. That petstore they got them from still got money from the fish. Therefore your not ever really ending the cycle either way. There will ALWAYS be people buying from petstores and whether you don't purchase them and get them from people who don't want them anymore or if you purchase from them. They still make profit. They're still getting more fish. No matter what. I choose to rescue and usually I get half price and then the money they receive is considered an adoption fee donated towards our local shelter. I'll continue to rescue because no fish deserves death because of human ignorance.


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## AmbiantNight (Feb 12, 2014)

There are betta rescues they are just hard to find. I have rescued and rehomed many. Yes I also breed but I'm selective on my breeding. (at most two batches of fry in a year and only when I have an order from a pet store I trust to care for them). When I rescue a fish from wally world I havn't paid a dime for it. It was given to me because it needed tlc. Every walmart gets their fish from a different supplier. 

Don't get me wrong I agree with you totally. And think it's great you stood up and said something. Just venting my own frustrations on the topic. To many people don't bother to stop and question where their fish came from. Personally I refuse to order a fish from outside my own continent because of it. Yes many of those over seas fish are amazing but the facilities they come from are not. I'd prefer to support local business and trade. That is one very good way to cut down on babies that need to be rescued in the first place. With the amount of work it takes to raise one GOOD batch of fry most people won't even bother to try it. This alone can cut down on the number of fish sold if people concentrated on dealing with local breeders. Currently if it doesn't come from America or Canada then I ain't buying it.


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

hell buying any fish from walmrt is most likely recuing it form being a kids pet and it dying shortly after, the sad fact is walmart and the big chain pet stores care little about the fish, think about it, if you decided on a whim to buy a betta and do not have any fish and such, that 5 dollar betta is going to end up costing you 35-40 dollars, tank, food, decore, water conditioner, and so on so the fish is nto what they care about its all the other junk. I will buy fish from walmart the common easy to get to fish but for the most part I buy most of my stuff online and the stuff I don't buy online I get at our good LFS


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

My point is, walmart, petco or whatever wont use the 50% you paid for shelters or whatever. Some local stores might though and those I would greatly encourage helping and teaching.

I do understand it's hard for everyone who likes bettas (or have a heart for that matter) to pass beside a sick, dying betta and not do anything about it. I have to hold my self from going in the fish section of lousy large chain stores because of that. 

We all see the bettas as individual and not bulk, however, the stores don't see it this way, they see the fishes as easy money, no maintenance (because some don't care, some don't know any better, hence why I think it's important to try and educate people)

if you buy one fish (sorry...''rescue'') another one will take its place. bought with your money. Again, I'm not saying never to buy from pet shops, heck, I'm very much a ''I like money'' type of girl, I know how business works  but if explained well, most managers will at least -try- to the best of their ability of make the fish better. (healthier fish = easier sell = more money) it's just hard to make them understand at time.

They will still buy fishes, they will still be people buying fishes, what people need to understand, is -how- to sell them and keep them properly, and without passionate people like users on this forum, nothing will change.

Here's an example, here, in Québec, Declawing is legal, and not only that, grossly over used. (for the sake of the couches!!!) vets will do it, most of them won't care (easy money, takes around 15-20 minutes for a good vet to declaw a normal cat (not talking about polydactyl here)

Personally, I HATE declawing with a passion, I hate hate hate it (did I mention I hated it?) it's a useless mutilation and all...but I wont go too far into that. my point is
people declaw because for them, it's normal and it doesn't hurt (wake up call , it's not just removing the ''nails'' it's removing the hole damn last phalanges) 
I -ALWAYS- took the time to explain to clients what declawing was, every-effin-time.

At first, it was hard because people love their couches and arms, but when I explained them the options (claw covers (comes in many colors including HOTGLITTERS PINK!), training and everything) I'd say 75% of them decided against declawing.

Because they were educated and had other options to save the couches (and arm, and face and whatever miss sourpuss feels like destroying that day)

Now take that, and put it as a fish story, if you explain to the managers/owner (of small stores) and whatnot the benefit (cost and visibility, and hey, good pub!) of it, they will most likely listen, assuming you go with smart options (like, it's easy to keep a bucket of water in the backstore, or two bowls instead of one, or whatever way they want to change the water) feed them more than...never and what not. Most of you here are all americans, some of you live nearby from eachother. That's also a good selling point ''hey I'm on this forum, I think I could bring more people if you changed your water more''

theres a lot of things you can say/do that will make some people go ''hey it's smart! let's at least try and stop being idiots for a change!' 
most wont.. but some might!

PS - I am NOT the type of girl who goes running around naked with red paint saying MEAT IS MURDER and what not, I hate PETA and I eat my steak rare thank you very much


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

I understand what you're saying and it was really brave of you to say it. However, good meaning people paying several dollars to rescue a fish is not all the money they make from fish sales. The way I see it, there will always be another kid who doesn't know or another person who just doesn't care. Maybe it's really pessimistic or maybe it's true, but when you compare one 4$ fish to the however many others that get sold, they're making a lot more from the uninformed or people who don't care.

Edit after post that was made while I was typing: I get what you mean about another fish just taking it's place, but there are only two options. One is they get bought and another replaces them, or they die and another replaces them anyway.

I definitely agree about declawing being horrible, but sadly most people just don't care as much about fish as they do about a cat or a dog.


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

yea that's true (people caring more about cats/dogs than fishes) 

but more and more people are starting to realize that fishes take more than water... you can see it everywhere, even on the boxes of Marina stuff ''betta need a heater'' I was surprised, last year they didn't mention that. they also mention about water changes and everything.

but yes, I do see the ''beta's aren't dogs/cat'' point so the challenge is even harder.

But as I said, its stupid to imagine you'll save the world, but even if you can educate one person on many, its one happy ending for a fish and one less crappy ending in general.


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

Are more people realizing it? I don't know many people, especially fish people, so I don't really know, but I haven't really noticed a change.

I do try and educate people, and explain to them why their fish would be in better health with a heater or more water changes, but sadly the response I usually get is "It's fine".


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

I think people going to local pet stores and asking to put out pamphlets is going to be the best way to educate...


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

I don't know for everywhere else in the world, but around here I see more people interested in the quality of the fish, and the living condition they are in. It's not much, but it's a start.

But I know for a fact that if nobody say anything, people will stay ignorant.

Before I left the clinic (I became pregnant and decided to change field when my son was born (the work has long hours and wanted to spend time with my boy... hardest decision I ever made) we had a donation box that the money we gathered was to help out local rescues.

Most of the money they gathered was for vet bills, but they always used some especially to help educate people about animal abuse and the importance of spay/neuter. Sure we still go with ''cats and dogs are better than fish'' mentality.

But if people -know- for free, its a plus.
If the store owner agrees (as in, you don't bash the business, instead explain that hey, a bowl actually takes WAY more maintenance than a filtered 3g that will cost you 5-10$ more!) it usually goes better.

one of the best way to ''spread the words'' (I almost sound like a preacher now) is facebook (or tweets, or whatever apps people use theses day, I'm still on fb  (I had a myspace, wooo I'm old!)

Facebook gives a free voice to everyone, its easy to share stuff and connect to local petstores.

as I said, as long as its GOOD for business (and cheap/free) most owners will love the idea.


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

haveyouhadyourteayet, I think a pamphlet would be a great idea.

I've had a lot more success talking to people who don't actually have a fish, then talking to someone who already does. I think because then they wouldn't need to spend money to get a heater and stuff like that. But even if the people you talk to don't currently have a fish, hopefully they'll think about what you said if they ever consider getting one. They may even tell other people what you told them.


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

it is a great idea, only problem with that is how to pay the pamphlets 
even if you DIY, printing cost money


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought of that.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

A big issue I had before I schooled myself was thinking 'the water is clear, the water is fine!!' 
No one thinks about ammonia being something to worry about.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

Lol Print em out at work!!


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## preternaturalism (Nov 21, 2013)

LurkerMom said:


> No, buying a fish (or any pet for that matter) is not ‘’rescuing’’ it’s in fact, quite the opposite. You, unknowingly, keep the circle of abuse, awful breeding farm condition (whether Bettas that were shipped in lousy condition or puppies from puppy mills, or kitten)


A very common misconception which I'm sad to see used to lay guilt on innocent people. Those chain stores don't get their profit from the bettas. They get it from items people buy with the bettas. The fish is not the product, the fish is the loss leader. A hundred people each buy a $5 veiltail over the course of a month, that's $300-$400 max in profit over that month.

This would probably be a fist-pump worthy moment if it went into your own paycheck. It is _completely meaningless_ to a big chain.

A hundred people each buy a $5 veiltail, water conditioner, medication, food, a small aquarium, decorations, substrate, an upgrade for that small aquarium, silk plants to fill out the new aquarium...this is where the money comes from.

Yes, yes you darn well _are _rescuing bettas if you purchase them from terrible conditions, no matter what anyone says. Just go elsewhere for your supplies. _That _is how you damage their profits. And _that _is what people refuse to do, will continue to refuse to do, because the big chain stores are where you can actually get decent deals.

You may not believe this, but I'm telling you straight up, they don't actually care whether you buy a betta or not. And the fish? The fish we all know does.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

What does the condition the fish is in have to do with anything?

Why is it that only bettas are "rescued", versus the hundreds of other fish that are temporarily being kept in less than ideal conditions?


Just an observation, but many times when I read about rescues, the people barely have the means to care for the fish they "rescued".

Based on the differences I have seen in the quality of fish at chain stores, I definitely think that the change in care is something that has to happen on a store by store basis.


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

jaysee said:


> What does the condition the fish is in have to do with anything?
> 
> Why is it that only bettas are "rescued", versus the hundreds of other fish that are temporarily being kept in less than ideal conditions?
> 
> ...


I talked here about betta, because this is a betta forum  

but thats my whole point, imo, only way to change is to go directly to the stores and talk to the managers or whatever. It's amazing what a friendly and well meaning attitude can do 
I mentioned walmart as its a place where many posts from here are about, here I never saw a walmart who had fishes (gear, yes, but living fish no) (not that I don't go to walmart often though)
but theres a lot of stores that are changing the way they treat their animals around here, but I can't talk for other countries or provinces.

edited (clicked 'post' by accident hehe)

lots of rescues (of every type of pets) lack of funds or some, general knowledge, its a huge problem when the ''rescuers'' are worse.
It's really hard for the common folks to know where to go in rescues, but I only know one for betta not too far from where I live :S


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I know it's a betta forum, but a lot of betta keepers also keep other species. I was just wondering if those people rescue their guppies, dwarf frogs and snails too. Can't recall ever seeing someone talk about rescuing guppies before.


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

jaysee said:


> I know it's a betta forum, but a lot of betta keepers also keep other species. I was just wondering if those people rescue their guppies, dwarf frogs and snails too. Can't recall ever seeing someone talk about rescuing guppies before.


That's actually a great point.
I know I saw a couple of goldfish and reptiles at a big shelter around here, but I don't know of any ''rescues'' per say


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## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

One person "rescuing a betta" or not is not going to change walmart-petsmart-petco's profits. Hundreds of thousands of ppl buy them on a whim for their kid (i know, i was one of them). Likely 95% of those will not come to a forum and look for how to care for that fish. That fish will just die. Fish are viewed as disposable in our society. If dogs, cats, birds, or even hamsters were kept in conditions that were dangerous to them, people would be HORRIFIED. My son's betta cost $3 at Walmart. We bought him a $20 tank/hood/light combo on sale, then spent more money on a filter, a heater, water conditioner, food, gravel, etc. And now we've decided to upgrade all of that again. 
If you REALLY want to change the position of walmart-petsmart-petco, get a petition in your community and present it to the local managers. Don't just let the fish die "for the greater good". How many must die "for the greater good"?


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## Warhawk (Feb 23, 2014)

First off wow a lot to read here. Should have caught this thread when it started.

Lurkermom @ I understand what your saying buying from the big stores just feeds their pockets and they will keep buying. The mark up on a avarage fish is huge so like you said they can have 4-5 die for everyone they sale and still make money. And like others said the mark up on tank, light, food, and other stuff makes them lots of money also.

I think you have a good point about talking to local vets or rescues centers about fish. Giving them your contact info so when someone comes in looking for info they can contact you for help. 

If your lucky enough to have a local fish store that buys and sales local fish make sure you support them. If you don't have a store look for clubs in your area. All my BN plecos cory cats are local breed. 


I looked into setting up a rescuer last summer, it is a lot of work and money. I have posted on Craigslist I would "rescue" tropical fish and I was able to get a whole tank set up from a lady that couldn't care for them anymore. Cost me $50 for everything so not cheap for some fish I didn't really want until I got them home.


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## Ccho (Mar 4, 2014)

I really agree with the spirit of your post! However, I think that for every educated Betta lover, there are hundreds of uneducated people who will buy bettas without properly caring for them. Since bettas are relatively cheap, people will continue to buy them without investing in their proper care and maintenance. I have seen and chastised people who just go out and buy a fish, let it die, and buy another one.

I guess my argument is that if educated people don't buy betta's from places like walmart, those fish will be purchased by people who are more likely to abuse them. The only way to fix this problem I think is to educate people in care of bettas, or to petition the government to regulate the humane practice of selling and distributing fish. I also think these regulations will cause the price of bettas to go up, which I view as a GOOD thing. People who buy something more expensive tend to research and care for it better. I mean look at those poor 20 cent goldfish that people buy their kids, and drop in a bowl.


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## Warhawk (Feb 23, 2014)

Just a thought but it would be possible to set up a fish rescue with people from different parts of the country (or counties). As a example I'm in northern Indiana I could take fish with in 100 miles of me and then someone in another city could do the same. With 10-15 people we could cover a area of hundreds of square miles. With Facebook we could get the info out to people and help spread information. 

I have looked on Facebook and there are not much good info in bettas.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Here's something to consider - if it weren't for all the uninformed people killing their fish and buying all the stupid little tanks we hate so much, the stores may not do enough business to warrant maintaining a fish section.


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

jaysee said:


> Can't recall ever seeing someone talk about rescuing guppies before.


Like LurkerMom said, it's a betta forum. If they want to discuss other fish, they can post it in the 'Other Fish' part of the forum.


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

Murr I posted that before I read the next few pages xD.


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## preternaturalism (Nov 21, 2013)

jaysee said:


> What does the condition the fish is in have to do with anything?
> 
> Why is it that only bettas are "rescued", versus the hundreds of other fish that are temporarily being kept in less than ideal conditions?


That's actually a very interesting question. I don't "rescue" myself so I've just tended to accept the general usage of the term.



jaysee said:


> Here's something to consider - if it weren't for all the uninformed people killing their fish and buying all the stupid little tanks we hate so much, the stores may not do enough business to warrant maintaining a fish section.


I've seen this happen. None of my nearby WalMarts have fish sections anymore - no tanks, no food, nada - and I used to go to them to see if I could spot unusual guppy culls all the time.


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

jaysee said:


> Why is it that only bettas are "rescued", versus the hundreds of other fish that are temporarily being kept in less than ideal conditions?


Whenever I get a fish I always try to rescue it from less than ideal conditions. I would think a lot of people do, but since this is a betta forum it's not mentioned nearly as much.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Aquatail said:


> Whenever I get a fish I always try to rescue it from less than ideal conditions. I would think a lot of people do, but since this is a betta forum it's not mentioned nearly as much.



It's only "a betta forum" on computers. On the phone app, bettafish is combined with the parent site TFK (as it's just a sub forum of TFK). There is also the "other fish" section on bettafish, where one would expect to see things like that. But I can't recall ever seeing it. Just an observation


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

jaysee said:


> It's only "a betta forum" on computers. On the phone app, bettafish is combined with the parent site TFK (as it's just a sub forum of TFK). There is also the "other fish" section on bettafish, where one would expect to see things like that. But I can't recall ever seeing it. Just an observation


I had no idea there even was a phone app! My current phone is pretty old. I need to turn on my new smart one! 

I do know there's an "other fish" section, but it gets a little less traffic so less posts. I do understand what you're saying, though. Like I said, I personally try to rescue any fish I get, but I think to people bettas look like they need it more because they're stuck in the tiny cups as opposed to an actual tank despite how crowded it is.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah the app is really convenient, especially for uploading pics from the phone (now that that part finally works). I rarely use the laptop anymore.


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

jaysee said:


> Yeah the app is really convenient, especially for uploading pics from the phone (now that that part finally works). I rarely use the laptop anymore.


Sounds nice, but how do the pictures get to the phone? I know phones can take much better pictures now, but I can still take way better pictures with a camera. Are you limited to phone pictures or is there a way to get other pictures to the phone to upload?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If you wanted to use a camera then I would just go the old fashioned route and move them to your computer and upload them from there. If you wanted to get a pic from the camera to the phone, you can do that too but it still requires the computer so you might as well do it from the computer at that point.


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## Aquatail (Jun 29, 2012)

Interesting. When I finally upgrade my phone maybe I'll try it out!


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

I had no idea this forum was used for another fish forum heh, if I knew i would have added more about ''general fishes'' as well


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Bettafish is like a mother in law suite - it's got it's own front door but it's still part of the house.


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## LurkerMom (Sep 9, 2013)

LOL, is it as annoying as a mother in law?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LurkerMom said:


> LOL, is it as annoying as a mother in law?


Hahaha no comment :lol:


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

LurkerMom said:


> LOL, is it as annoying as a mother in law?



Can't properly answer that as it's a mother in law with tens of thousands of personalities . Can't love them all ;-) 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Alphahelix (Dec 7, 2013)

As someone who pretty much only buys 'rescues', I'm not offended by the OP at all- it's completely true that buying the fish means more will come.

I do not believe,however, that whether or not I buy that one fish or watch it die will make a whit of difference to the chain- and it DOES make a difference to that fish 

I'm all about educating and doing everything you can to educate, I think that will make more of a long term difference then refusing to pick up particular Bettas who clearly are not doing well on the shelf. Frankly if chain stores didn't carry fish I wouldn't be able to afford to have the variety I do- and while I wish fish were considered more of 'exotic' pets (I've have exotics that took less time haha) I'm greatful that they are widely available. I have seen huge improvemts in Betta care and it depends on each individual store- my favorite petco takes excellent care and orders from a great breeder, so most if my latest rescues have genetic issues from random things, not bad conditions.

I guess to each his own, I'll continue to buy rescues but I'm choosy now about where I out my money and id like to be able to write letters and educate people in my life who keep fish.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Define what you mean by more "exotic " pets ? I ask because I'm wondering are you implying exotic animals get better care ? They don't as I work as part of an exotics rescue (specifically reptiles ) .. The neglect and abuse is worse I'd say .
Also I hate seeing the word rescue thrown around so loosely .. As someone whose worked on getting a 501c rescue going it's not a rescue if payed for to the store or whomever was taking improper care or at all. To adopt out rescues you can charge adoption fees that cover a portion of your expense .. But buying a sick animal isn't a rescue . It's just buying an animal in need . If the store surrenders the animal to you that's another story . 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## Alphahelix (Dec 7, 2013)

^ not at all, I'm saying as someone who has kept everything from bearded dragons to sugar gliders, if I put a Betta fish into the 'exotic' category in my head the level of care to expect having one makes more sense. My dogs and cats do not take as much maintenance weekly as my fish tanks. Across the board no matter the appropriate level of care animals are kept in horrible conditions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 16kehresmann (Feb 5, 2014)

Agent13 said:


> Define what you mean by more "exotic " pets ? I ask because I'm wondering are you implying exotic animals get better care ? They don't as I work as part of an exotics rescue (specifically reptiles ) .. The neglect and abuse is worse I'd say .
> Also I hate seeing the word rescue thrown around so loosely .. As someone whose worked on getting a 501c rescue going it's not a rescue if payed for to the store or whomever was taking improper care or at all. To adopt out rescues you can charge adoption fees that cover a portion of your expense .. But buying a sick animal isn't a rescue . It's just buying an animal in need . If the store surrenders the animal to you that's another story .
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


The definition of rescue is :an act of saving or being saved from danger or distress.
You don't get to decide what a "rescue" is. If theres a fish that has severe finrot or some other ailment and you pay 1.00 on that fish. You "rescued" that fish because it was in a dangerous and distressful enviroment. Let's face it saving a fish is WAY different than saving any other kind of animal. There's LAWS protecting other animals so it's way easier to say "Oh your not saving that fish at all because you paid some amount of money for it." There's no way you can get the fish for free if your LPS refuses. Where if you see an abused dog let's say. You can get that dog removed and save it price free. Your not supporting anything then. But guess what. Until theres a law passed for fish (Which I highly doubt will happen anytime soon) I'm going to pay that $1.00 for that sad pathetic looking fish. And I am going to proudly post pictures of him and her as a "RESCUE" because that's exactly what they are. Sorry, if that post was rude to anyone I'm really just not okay with people saying "I hate how loosely the word rescue is used" Paying money for a hurt fish doesn't mean he's not a rescue.


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## preternaturalism (Nov 21, 2013)

16kehresmann said:


> Paying money for a hurt fish doesn't mean he's not a rescue.


Darn straight.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Alphahelix said:


> My dogs and cats do not take as much maintenance weekly as my fish tanks.



That's funny cause my 2 chihuahuas require WAAAAAAY more maintenance than my combined 450 gallons of fish tanks. But my 10 tanks are cycled - they don't REQUIRE any week to week maintenance. I can certainly see how a bunch of uncycled tanks would be more work than dogs.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet (Jan 14, 2014)

That is a mind blowing amount of water... You could keep a scuba diver in that, if you put it all together!


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## Alphahelix (Dec 7, 2013)

Haha it probably depends on the dog/hobby/etc. My dog get s fed twice a day and needs exercise, grooming and vet care but I spend a lot of time doing water changes on my 10 tanks that make the daily dog routine seem easy peasy Holy cow 450 gallons sounds like an awesome amount of fish!

Also +1 to the definition of rescue - I wouldn't call it anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Just telling ya'll the legal definition of a rescue .. 'Tis all. It was a frustrating hurtle building the international reptile rescue . Just like fish .. Reptiles are at best in that grey area where abuse/neglect is not protected by laws. We can not pay for rescues .. And if we do we are then not allowed to even use the word rescue on our title .

More work then your dogs ??? 
I too like Jaysee keep multiple hundreds of gallons in fish tanks that are pristine , cycled and full of an array of fish yet no way are they as much effort as my dog or frilled dragons .. Or even the bearded dragons . Soon to be mixed with Jaysees tanks and together something like 1k g?? And that's both of is getting rid of tanks .. Yet even then tank/ fish care does not compare my dog or dragons 




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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Just wait for the indoor/outdoor pond


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## Alphahelix (Dec 7, 2013)

Maybe it's just me then? My tanks are cycled/great condition/100% naturally planted but I still do 25% water changes with a bucket on a weekly basis for all of them- is this not the norm? 20 gallons is my largest- but perhaps I'm making more work for myself? Besides that too I've only been in this hobby seriously for several months and all the water testing/cycling/online ordering of stuff and trips to petco for my fish make them quite the hobby, and I've had dogs my whole life so the routine seems much lower maintenance. All that to say yes, in my experience my current dog has been much easier but this could also be I'm used to the routine. All animals require a lot of care

A reptile rescue sounds both rewarding and difficult- I appreciate you for being a part of trying to help/educate/care for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

In this hobby you can make as much or as little work for yourself as you like, and the "work" is a big reason why a lot of people are in the hobby so it's not really a fair thing to compare. That being said, I would hope many people would spend more time walking their dog then maintaining their fish tank.


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## preternaturalism (Nov 21, 2013)

Agent13 said:


> Just telling ya'll the legal definition of a rescue .. 'Tis all. It was a frustrating hurtle building the international reptile rescue . Just like fish .. Reptiles are at best in that grey area where abuse/neglect is not protected by laws. We can not pay for rescues .. And if we do we are then not allowed to even use the word rescue on our title .


In what legal jurisdiction, if you don't mind my asking? The only legal definitions of "rescue" I've run across have mentioned boarding significant numbers of animals that are up for adoption to permanent homes, not where they came from or how they were acquired. I suspect this is true only in certain areas....but as I said I don't "rescue" under any definition of the term.

Regardless, when most people say they've rescued an animal, they're using the general definition of the word, saying they've saved it from a dangerous or distressing situation, and it's not helpful to guilt them over not restricting themselves to legal terminology. The ordinary definition of the word isn't suddenly rendered moot just because the word has acquired a stricter meaning in a stricter context, especially when said stricter context does not even apply to fish in most places as they're not covered under animal cruelty laws and cannot be legally seized.

What synonym would you suggest people use in place of the perfectly functional word "rescue," after they've gone the extra mile and paid to save the animal? "Salvage" and "redeem" both have rather sticky connotations. "Ransom," perhaps, is a bit closer?


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## Alphahelix (Dec 7, 2013)

@ jaysee - I can appreciate that point of view. Part of my late frustration is when people think of fish as 'just fish' and 'it's just a couple bucks to replace them, no big deal' and 'it's not any work to have fish', when I would really rank them up with my higher maintenance pets- meaning no offense to anyone who puts lots of work into their dogs/reptiles or other. Apologies if it sounded that way


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

preternaturalism said:


> In what legal jurisdiction, if you don't mind my asking? The only legal definitions of "rescue" I've run across have mentioned boarding significant numbers of animals that are up for adoption to permanent homes, not where they came from or how they were acquired. I suspect this is true only in certain areas....but as I said I don't "rescue" under any definition of the term.
> 
> Regardless, when most people say they've rescued an animal, they're using the general definition of the word, saying they've saved it from a dangerous or distressing situation, and it's not helpful to guilt them over not restricting themselves to legal terminology. The ordinary definition of the word isn't suddenly rendered moot just because the word has acquired a stricter meaning in a stricter context, especially when said stricter context does not even apply to fish in most places as they're not covered under animal cruelty laws and cannot be legally seized.
> 
> What synonym would you suggest people use in place of the perfectly functional word "rescue," after they've gone the extra mile and paid to save the animal? "Salvage" and "redeem" both have rather sticky connotations. "Ransom," perhaps, is a bit closer?



The definition of rescue from a legal standpoint are in the mile high paperwork you have to go through when getting a rescue organization legally recognized . But feel free to call what you're doing rescuing as yes.. You are saving these fish from a bad situation . I'm not meaning to take away from that . What concerns me is the same reason that the laws are there for rescues to not buy pets as rescues... It creates the very real potential for companies or people to intentionally or just carelessly depend on you good nature knowing you'll buy these animals . There's no need for better standards if even the sick ones get sold . When you're talking about large name stores you have to realize higher up all they see are dollar signs ... And as sad as it is you can save one fish or 20.. I don't know how many you rescue ... Or you could try to work on the bigger picture and save faaarr more. Help make it not profitable to carry fish in bad conditions .. Complain write reviews .. Do stuff like that if you have the time . 

Working with my rescue I have seen more insane greed behind the neglected animals then I ever have before . And heart breaking deaths by large name companies and breeders . 30 near dead iguanas crammed into a 20g at a reptile show by a rather large breeder . Talked with my local iguana rescue and they caught them throwing all of them in the trash .. Rescued them. I had my vet who was there too look at them and finally lodge a complaint trying to ban them from repticon . That will effect them .. Will finally make their sales of sick animals less profitable . Had we bought them ( pretending we wouldn't lose our 501c status ) then what progress would that really have made ? It's no different with fish or any other animal. But as I stated I really don't want you to think I'm raining on your parade ... Or not thinking you have a big heart and doing good things . You are. I just would like everyone to be aware there are other ways .. For the lurkers on this forum and all 




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## preternaturalism (Nov 21, 2013)

Agent13 said:


> The definition of rescue from a legal standpoint are in the mile high paperwork you have to go through when getting a rescue organization legally recognized .


Then it might be a state or county regulation, or even a stipulation of a bigger organization you were trying to be recognized by, not necessarily "the" prevailing legal definition. I'm just curious as I've never seen the terminology addressed from a legal standpoint before. It'll be interesting if this sense of "rescue" gradually becomes the major one, much like the way the term "organic" has shifted over the years.

I agree with everything you're saying, _however_, it's important to understand that bettas are inherently marketed differently from iguanas, or other reptiles, or axolotls, or puppies from mills, or even the more expensive fish, which while treated horribly are still the main "product" of people selling them. Chain stores sell bettas essentially as decorations which they're hoping will pull in a lot of money from accessories ("Oh, wow, this fish is only $1.99 today! I should get it, and a tank, and food, and a tiny mirror, and overpriced bottled water, and..."). In the end they wind up costing people a lot more than a little shoal of tetras in a 10-gallon would, and for a worse level of care, and in the process the store makes a lot more profit, enough that they can ignore they're not making much if anything on the betta itself.

What I'm trying to say is, if people keep buying malnourished iguanas at shows, they will continue to be sold by disreputable farms, because that's what's raking in the profit, and things will continue to get worse. But if people only buy bettas and nothing else from stores that treat them badly, the stores will get nearly zilch, and either charge more (then take better care so they don't lose profit on a fish that's suddenly "worth" more), or take bettas off the shelves entirely, along with their micro habitats. No business keeps selling a loss leader if that's the only thing people buy.

As long as you used your organization's funds for the purchase to avoid funneling money through members questionably, you shouldn't have lost your tax-exempt status from buying near-death animals unless you went against your own bylaws or something...non-profit organizations are allowed to buy things relevant to their work.


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