# What we've learned...



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Our summer project this year is betta genetics and breeding. Our first spawn was last week, and this is what we learned so far;

We set up 2 pairs, a yellow male with a red female and a pair of iridescent multi-colored crowntails.
~BTW, before anyone asks, yes, we did make plans for all the fry before this project began. Show type bettas will not sell better locally then multi-colored "mutts". In fact, I will find it easier to sell bettas who are all different than 50-100 red ones.~

The females were full of eggs, the males fat and sassy ... but neither boy was even remotely interested in building a nest. 
When we released the females, the 2 pairs had totally different reactions.
With the crowntail pair, the female went absolutely spazzing hiding. No hiding spot was good enough. She would dart madly around the tank, sometimes jumping out of the water, to end up back under her leaf.
The male, on the other hand, went happily and contentedly to a slow courtship, dancing seductively and blowing the occasional bubble as he tried to lead her under the cup.

The yellow male would NOT stop flaring at the red female, and began a long, slow chase of her around the tank, flaring the whole way.
She was entirely confused at the whole thing. He never dashed after her or hurt her, he just aggressively (and endlessly) flared at her and kept her in constant, yet slow, motion. Finally, she started flaring back, and even began to shred his tail - he would slowly advance, head first, gill covers out, looking for all the world like he was going to dive at her any second .... and she would decide she had too much and dash past him, taking a nip at his tail as she went past to the other side of the tank. I can not describe well enough how ssssllloooooowwwwlllyyyy yet relentlessly he chased her. 
We had just decided to separate them when he seemed to give a gasp, arched his back up .... and sank slowly to the bottom of the tank, stone dead. We think he had a heart attack!

~Things we learned; Never attempt to spawn a betta you aren't prepared to lose. Even if you are sitting there watching to make sure they don't seriously hurt each other, they can have a heart attack and die from the excitement.

In the meantime, the crowntail female had stopped freaking out, noticed that the male was doing everything in his power to entice her, and courtship went text-book perfect from there on, except for the pitifully small nest he built.
Finally, they began to embrace and the eggs started coming. Oh. My. Goodness did she lay eggs!! Dozens at a time, he couldn't pick them all up though he tried manfully. They both ate some, but there were so many it didn't make a dent. His tiny nest became WHITE with eggs before they both decided they were done with each other and we removed the female.

~Things we learned; Their mating ritual is beautiful and complex, and can take hours
~When they are done with each other, they are DONE
~The number of eggs possible is no exaggeration.

The female spent some recovery time in a QT jar with some Stress Coat before happily going back to her tank and is fine.
the male began to move his endless eggs from his pitifully tiny nest to a New And Improved - and still impossibly small - nest. He was hugely dedicated, even though his moving made eggs fall from the nest, 20 - 30 at a time, and he would patiently go down and pick them up and blow them back, before moving the next mouthful.

In about 36 hours, the eggs began to hatch. We were so excited!!! the male, not so much. He did not approve of anything happening to his eggs, and the way they now persisted in falling irritated him. But his dedication was impressive, and he made endless 5 inch trips to the bottom of the tank to retrieve them, even though every motion of his fins knocked still more babies out of he teeny nest.

~ Shallow water and a bare bottom is the best favor you can do for your breeding male.

A day later, we saw the first fry swimming. WOOHOO!! We also saw that, myriad though they were, there were noticeably less of them. We were not in a rush to begin feeding, as the water was well aged and cycled, and teemed with infuoria and micro-life....

~ A microscope is a wonderful, wonderful thing

...so we decided to leave the male in until more of them were free-swimming, as there was still a steady rain of fry falling from the nest.

The next day, we were certain. The fry were full and round (tiny little dots though they were) and the male, no doubt out of desperation in wrangling his errant and endless children, was swallowing about every third mouthful of fry that he picked up, so we decided to remove him, even though there were still some fry hanging from the nest.
I carefully washed my hands (no soap!) and went to lift him from the water. The first time he literally leapt from my hand, and the second time managed to wiggle free and dashed for his nest, where he went to fight me! Not wanting to totally destroy the nest, I thought I'd let him calm down for a couple of minutes.

~When you decide to remove the male, a deep net may actually be the best way to do it.
~If you think he needs to be taken out, go on and wreck the nest.
~An upset male is capable of hoovering up fry like a commercial shop vac.

A minute later I looked and saw him totally destroying the nest and devouring fry left and right, inhaling them dozens at a gulp. I took a cup and caught him in it, even though this action scattered the few remaining slow and clumsy fry all over the place.
We put him back in his old (cleaned, of course) home and fasted him for a solid week.

~ In spite of appearances, an overfed betta will not, in fact, explode.

The few remaining fry, who had been in a cluster near the nest, were now scattered across a 15G tank with many plants in it. Staring hard, I got the occasional glimpse of a moving speck, but mostly just put tiny droplets of egg food here and there in the water daily, and hoped.

~ Not only are the fry really, truly that small, they are even smaller. They will vanish into a tank, especially one with plants.

4 days later, my daughter managed to see 5 fry at the same time. Yay!! A far cry from hundreds, but we were happy with it. The fry had progressed from a miniscule black eye with a hair, to in incredibly teeny silver bubble of full belly, with a hair. So I thought it was time for microworms.

~ Microworms smell incredibly boozy.

It is now day 10 since The Incident and the fry are easier to see. Whenever I spot one, which I can now do every time I look into the tank, it is fat and round. I've still never yet to see more then 5 at the same time, but I'm hoping there are a few more then that.

Other things I have learned;

~ If your fish room is in a shop building (like a garage, for those of you not out in the sticks) a screen on the fry tank is a great thing to have. Otherwise, you will not only be raising betta, but mosquitoes.
~ I am a coward when it comes to siphoning out a fry tank.
~ Mosquito larvae are impossible to catch with a siphon.
~ That air-stone on the siphon trick is a good one.
~ Box filters are our friends.

I have also learned that I am delighted and fascinated with the process so far. I'll try to update this weekly - I can't wait to see these little guys grow and develop! I'm hoping that what we learned so far helps us have more success with our next planned spawn.


----------



## whatsupyall (Oct 17, 2012)

Great and entertaining read. Heart attack write up killed me lol.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

The fry are easily visible!! Comparatively speaking anyway... it _is_ a planted tank.
I might have as many as ... drumroll please ... six! Yeah, yeah, it's pitiful, but everyone starts somewhere, and they're teaching us a lot about raising fry.

Ok, not really. We've learned that if you have about 6 fry in a 15 gallon tank in an open space (where mosquitoes and other bugs can get to the water) they'll be basically invisible, deliriously happy and want for nothing from you. 
I give microworms once a day, mostly to feel like I'm doing something, siphon a bit out, put a bit in - but mostly peer into the tank trying to catch a glimpse of one. I've never seen them actually eat a microworm. But everytime I see one, it looks fat and bigger then last time.

So we tried another spawn! A blue VT male and a black female. We set them up in a large, disposable tupperware that can float in a tank with a leaf, a sprig of plant and a cut-off cup. They taught us;
~every pair can act very, very different
~a pair can be ready, and still have no interest in each other
We left them together for 3 days. Which I was very, very nervous about. But the chasing that was done was minimal, and they seemed very inclined to leave each other alone, so we left them to it.

Finally, on day 3, they both decided they needed some relief, and if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.
And that's when we learned;
~fish can practice safe sex.

They mated for 2 hours with _no eggs_. I had no idea they could do that.
I gave them a few freeze-dried bloodworms, to distract and separate them so I could take her out, and they grabbed a quick snack and dashed back under the nest and finally - eggs!! Woot!

It was not a big spawn, but we're happy with more then 6. I haven't tried to get a good count of the eggs, but the male is tending them faithfully. They are 24 hours old, and we're hoping they'll hatch sometime tomorrow.
The parents were very gentle with each other and the female is back in her old tank, with just a teeny fin tear to show for her adventure.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm loving your take on the breeding experience!!


----------



## whatsupyall (Oct 17, 2012)

Haha, that's another great write up Riverotter! Let me teach you something that you will learn later with breeding. Feed bbs at least the first two weeks! Lol. You will have ventral-less fry's using microworms only. You probably don't even need to bother with feeding for the first few days as there are plenty micro organisms for 6 fry's to share lol.


----------



## ismintis (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm cracking up with all of your 'learning experiences' :'D *subscribed*


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Interesting read Riverotter. Good luck with your fry!


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Very informative and entertaining reading. Lol


----------



## mbreedi (Jun 5, 2013)

*Sounds like your having as much fun as we are*

Our fry hatched June 14, and we too are learning alot.
I have started feed bbs to mine couple of days ago. alternating with microworms. Seems to be working well.
This has ballooned into a lot bigger project than we original thought.
one tank for her , one for him, one for the fry, a brine shrimp hatchery, a brine shrimp grow tank to raise for the adult bettas. not to mention the microworm cultures. 
But it has been a lot of fun and I can't wait to see the fry start to show there color.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

*The mystery of the vanishing fry*

Yesterday I had a little write up on the new VT spawn, but the kids distracted me, the kittens hit the keyboard and it vanished :shock:

Now, somehow, the actual VT spawn has followed suit!
I took the father out, as he was eating babies as they hatched. He seemed to think eggs are great, but wiggly things were intruders/food. As the babies hatched, we learned the importance of the bubble nest.

~The babies need to stay near the surface, but the surface tension actually repels them, pushing them away. But, anything touching the surface arcs the water, and then surface tension works to push the babies up into that arc. The bubbles create many, many arcs, and then surface tension will actually kind of pull the babies up into it, keeping them safely at the surface, where the gas exchange is better.


Before bed, we saw that a few late eggs had fallen, but it was only 3 or so and the rest of the babies had hatched and were fine, and the first few were starting to swim. So we gave them a drop of egg food (hard boiled egg yolk, mixed in water, fine particulates only) and went to bed.

This morning, the fry are_ gone_. There were at least 20-30 of the little guys last night, and this morning, 3 dead fry on the bottom and _nothing else in there_. They are just gone, vanished. The obvious answer is that there is something in there that ate them, but after much searching, I found only a tiny planaria on the leaf. Nothing that could eat 20+ fry.

It is a mystery, and one I hope to solve before our next spawn. We've been re-conditioning the crowntail pair, and will try again next week. This time, we will make sure that the male is totally undisturbed and hopefully he will not eat all the fry again.

The first crowntail fry are doing great! They are starting to look like teeny tiny fish and look faintly shimmery.

My betta picture taking skills are awful, but when we try to spawn them again, I will try to get some decent pics of the parents, and maybe of the fry too.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Mbreedi it does seem to tend to snowball on you, doesn't it? We've always loved keeping fish and when we were able to get back into it, we decided to focus on bettas and breeding. We're really enjoying it.

Our goal is to raise 100 to adulthood. If we can manage that we'll join the IBC and try some showing.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

The lesson for this weekend was; Floating plants ONLY in the fry tank!!

We had in there some anarchis, some java moss and a potted up blue pickerel weed.

~ Craft mesh makes awesome pots for aquatic plants. You can make them any size and shape to fit a variety of plants, needs and tanks. Just not fry tanks.

When all the new fry were in the tupperware (actually the exact container is this; http://www.glad.com/food-storage/containers/deep-dish/ I really like it, but be careful picking it up filled with water, it wants to flex) vanished, I was very puzzled as to why. I still am, but I also started examining the larger fry tank the container was floating in for _things other then fry_.

A day later, I saw ... a leech!!!! I don't know if they prey on fry, but it was up on a leaf on the pickerel weed, and I thought "To heck with it, let's just break down the tank!"

And so that's what I did. I drained water from the tank into another "glad" through an airstone, so I could keep the same water for the fry, minus any nasties. Then, I carefully caught the CT fry with a baby food jar.

There are 4. Now in their own glad container, with a bit of very clean java moss and anarchis from a different tank. They are _not_ pleased. They feel better with the plants in there though. Three are the same size and the last one is about half the size, but fast as lightening. It took me 3 times as long to catch that one as all the others combined.

Once I was really sure I had all the baby bettas out, I took out every plant and leaf, shaking them carefully and putting them into a separate container of water, just in case I missed someone.
I did the blue pickerel last. I shook out the roots and Holy aquatic life!! There were bloodworms and caddis fly larvae and the leech's little brother, and some evil looking, bright red, segmented, wormy-looking insect, about a half inch long.

~Some species of caddis fly have carnivorous larvae
~Ramshorn snails will eat the protective silk cocoon some species of caddis fly larvae spin
~A truly startling amount of life can hide in the 4x4 inch roots of a blue pickerel weed

I left the tank set up for 24 hours and checked it several times in case I missed someone, but no, we're down to 4 baby bettas from that spawn. And there is something in that tank that is a nocturnal predator. It was empty save for water, bugs and some detritus. There was a good amount of mosquito larvae in there along with everything I shook out of the pickerel weed roots - but not this morning! There's less then half the amount that was there last night.
In a few minutes, the water and bugs will be poured out into the back yard, the tank thoroughly rinsed out with the hose, and set up again.Once I've got some pairs conditioned, we'll try again. 
The CT 4 will remain in their glad until I can get a net breeder box, and they can grow in that in the community tank - we're going to see if the presence of other fish and the strong filter negates the growth hormone effect.

I think the floating plants can be saved, but the blue pickerel weed was executed for it's crimes of harboring the enemy and accomplice to fry murder.


----------



## mbreedi (Jun 5, 2013)

LOL have never heard of capital punishment on plants, no fair trail either, you evil dictator. I have a couple banana plants in our fry tank. have not seen any problems with them. We have at least 50 fry still swimming strong. Have been getting a lot of green algae though.


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

The Crowntail 4 are doing GREAT!!
Eating and swimming and growing. I wish they were growing a bit faster, but hey, who doesn't.

They're getting big enough to see fins besides the tail, and I think I can see some ventrals, so the microworm heavy diet I fed them in ignorance may not have done any damage.

~Microworms are the easiest food, but not the best.
~It is really easy to supplement with just hatched mosquito larvae. Just keep some aged water around, and daily put a bit into a plastic shoe box, keep it outside. When you siphon the fry tank, replace the water using the aged water from the shoebox, which will have lots of mosquito eggs in it.

It took me so long to update this because I didn't want to do one more update without pics.

~I am finally getting better at taking pictures of fish!!




I'm thinking they're going to stay white for a long time, because the parents are both white/iridescent bodied, the father with red fins, the mother with multi.

~Next I need to work on decent pics of Mom and Dad.

We are conditioning some pairs to try another couple of spawns. We're undecided about re-spawning the parents. Right now our goal is colorful pets and learning how to raise fry, but I finally broke down and got a nice starter red pair that may throw a few show-worthy fry, as DD wants to join the IBC and show.


----------



## Kittiesdragons (May 1, 2013)

Awww they are so very cute! I'm glad to hear they are doing well!


----------



## whatsupyall (Oct 17, 2012)

Haha, that's some great pictures Riverotter!


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

~I have learned that I am NOT getting better at taking pictures of fish, that was apparently a fluke. Or, just the odds, out of hundreds of pictures (I love digital cameras <3 ) a couple had to turn out well.

So, no pics for this update.
Which is a shame as we finally have some COLOR!! The biggest of the Crowntail 4 has some red showing on his fins. WOOT! You can also see that he does have ventrals and the crowntail trait is now readily seen.
Sadly, they are now the Crowntail 3. Speedy, the runty one, and the only one who had a name, never did grow significantly and finally passed. I am hoping we will not get down to 2, as I am nursing another through a swimbladder issue. It seems to be improving though, so I am hopeful.

As they grow, they are finally trying new things in their diet, besides mosquito larvae and microworms. They are finally taking some frozen brine shrimp. And they really, really love Drosophila larvae, I had some colonize a microworm culture, and the fry really greedily hunt them down and eat them

~ Even if you use cool, scientific terms like Drosphila larvae, your 13 yo will still refer to them by their common name of "Disgusting little fruit fly maggots, eyeww, Mom, I can't believe you touched them."

The biggest news is we had another spawn! A salamander butterfly male with a dark-bodied, red finned female (the one you sent, whatsupyall). I'm hoping for butterflies in a variety of colors.

~ In my (admittedly small) experience, I've had about 1 out of every 3 spawn attempts result in spawning. The rest, the pairs are either not interested (I once separated 2 pairs, put them with their opposite partners out of frustration and had 1 pair spawning 2 minutes after introduction, which leads me to believe that sometimes they just don't like each other and others it's love at first sight. Sadly, the male tore the nest apart, for reasons unknown) or tear each other up enough that I'd rather separate them then risk them.

But this spawn went beautifully. A classic, textbook courtship, a rather tender mating and both partners came through with no damage besides a couple of small nips to the fins. The Salamander was an exceptional father, calm, collected, but dedicated and attentive. A big difference from the frantic state that the crowntail male was in.

The new spawn are 13 days old, from hatch date and doing well. They are impossible to count, as I have a lot of leaves and plants in the fry tank, but there were well over 100 when they became free-swimming.

*Now, I had _planned_ to do an experiment in raising, taking a few fry aside at a week old and feeding them nearly exclusively on microworms raised on a bed of high-protein soy-meal, rather then the usual, low protein oatmeal or mashed potatoes.

~ While a regular microworm culture has a smell, a soymeal one has an odor best described as "putrid" or "vomitus". However, they grow and reproduce ridiculously quickly, I see bigger microworms then the mashed potato culture and they have lived for over a day in the water. And the fry, do, in fact seem to grow better, though that is still inconclusive at this point.

However, the tranny died on the car, and I couldn't get brine shrimp eggs to feed the others as a control group (in fact, they're lucky they're not living on ramen with the rest of us. Transmission work is not cheap) so they had infusoria and egg yolk for the first several days, and now soy-fed microworms, mosquito larvae and Hakari first bites.
They are growing wonderfully! I believe they are bigger then the crowntails at the same age. I haven't seen any bodies while cleaning the tank and when I spot a fry, they all have full bellies.

~ On spotting fry; fry from strongly colored parents are far more visible then fry from lighter colored ones from above. I could not see the crowntails at all from above, but from below, they looked like little silver bubbles.
The multi spawn are dark little Vs from above. From the side, they are impossible to spot until they move. You'll be staring into a tank that holds nothing more then a couple of mosquito larvae that have gotten too big to be eaten and then there will be a little dart and there it is! And then you spot another, and another, and then 3 by the leaf, and the first one, who is now holding still, has again vanished as if it never existed.

We are still very much enjoying our hobby, and I have a very nice pair of reds set up, who will hopefully spawn in the next few days. Wish me luck!


----------



## whatsupyall (Oct 17, 2012)

Good luck and thanks for the updates!


----------



## mbreedi (Jun 5, 2013)

*They look Great*

Yours are looking great, here's a pic of our little guys


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Congrats Mbreedi!

The Crowntail 4 are now sadly down to 2. The runty one who never grew didn't make it, and the one who I thought was having a swimbladder issue, on closer inspection, had a bent spine. 
But the other 2 are doing GREAT! I think they are a male and a female. The female is still plain, clearish white but the male has a strong red blush on his fins and the brightest, reddest ventrals I've ever seen. DD is hoping they both stay that colour, she wants a solid white girl for her sorority.

Spawn 2 are also doing great. Definitely growing faster then the first spawn. They are taking newly hatched mosquito larvae with great delight. Tails are already very distinct and I am VERY excited by the variety I've gotten!! Many are deltas, but some have a very good spread and I may get some half-moons. There are clearly a couple of veiltails.
But, most exciting and rather unexpected - I have double tails!!
I knew the mother had a DT parent, but clearly the father carried the geno too, because at least 25% of the fry are DT, and there are a couple with very even lobes and it will be exciting to watch them develop.

You can already see that there will be a good bit of colour variation as well, as some are darker, some are lighter, and some are clear/white. So if I get some butterfly markings too, I will have gotten everything I hoped for from this spawn.

So far, no luck on spawning another pair. The weather has been weird here and it has been in the 90s to 100 degree range days, dropping down as low as the 60s at night, with large swings in barometric pressure as well, and I think it's throwing them off, because no one has been interested. None of my males have even built a nest all week, and some of those boys absolutely delight in nest building.


----------



## whatsupyall (Oct 17, 2012)

Cool update. Got picture?


----------



## mbreedi (Jun 5, 2013)

*How old before you can tell sex?*

Got any idea


----------



## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

*Tragedy in the fish room!*

I live in a very rural location, so sometimes, have some unique issues because of that. Last week brought some much needed rain. But, on occasion, groundwater will get into the pipes and contaminate the water. I got the boil notice a day late – AFTER major water changes had been done.
I had a total of 4 deaths. All males in my conditioning barracks, who had the most major water change. Happily, my pet boys; my desk buddy, and Jack and Minecraft, my daughter's special guys, were not scheduled for a water change, they are all fine. 
Those who survived the first, drastic blow – everyone who had had even a tiny bit of that water in their tanks, right down to my fry tank, got velvet.
I lost about a quarter of the fry, many of them DT, but the rest are all nearly recovered.

The Crowntail Duo are doing very well. Not growing quite as fast as I'd like, but now both are showing color. The smaller one is getting a lovely blue/green iridescence all over.

Except for the bout of velvet, the butterfly spawn are right on schedule. The majority of the fry are right where they should be, as far as growth, with one very large fry, a couple more that come close to him, and about 5 or 6 teeny ones, who I may cull, as most of the very teeny ones have tails that curve upwards. There is only one normal size fry who worries me, a DT with a crooked back. But he is a very fast swimmer (unlike the runty guys) and as long as his belly is full and he's getting around fine, we'll let him be and see what happens.
Except for those few, I think I may have some very nice DTs! They are tiny and still have a lot of growing to do, but I have about 3 with what look, so far, to be perfectly even lobes, and a few more who are not far off from that. They don't, exactly, have any color to them, but some are dark, and some are whitish, and a few, when viewed from above, seem to have a reddish tint. 
It will definitely be interesting to watch them grow.

And a HUGE thank you to Ilikebutterflies.
Remember above, where I mentioned I'm deep in the boonies and have some unique issues?
~ We learned to not trust anyone but me to keep the door to the fishroom shut. 


See, it is not in the house, it's in the shop/garage. And if you leave the fishroom door open, chickens – who can go in and out of the rest of the building - can then get in and eat my microworm cultures. Ilikebutterflies was kind enough to send me some brine shrimp eggs and hatching instructions to get me started, and so my fry are still alive. 


~ In spite of my total inability to keep Sea Monkeys alive, I can hatch enough brine shrimp to keep my fry fed

Well, hatching them was the easy part. Getting them out to feed was another matter. I had a nice, new nylon stocking. That thing was tight, could barely get water through it. So I thought it would be perfect to strain out BBS. I putt it over the top of the jar, siphoned the water through it, picked it up - and beheld a totally empty stocking. I turned it inside out and waved it in the water - after all, it was beige, and BBS are tiny. There were about a dozen.
So I picked up the jar, and was very happy I hadn't siphoned into the sink, because the jar was full of BBS asking each other what the heck just happened. After some trial and error, we learned
~ A folded handkerchief makes a good substitute for a brine shrimp net, but a stocking never will.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Riverotter said:


> ~ A folded handkerchief makes a good substitute for a brine shrimp net, but a stocking never will.


I've always done mine over paper towel or coffee filters.


----------

