# General question about rosetails



## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't really have intentions to breed, since I wouldn't know what to do with all the offspring, but I still like to read this section of the forum and dream. 

And every now and then I get a few questions.

I've noticed in a few threads that people warn against breeding rosetails. Why is this? Is this simply for fin structure and quality or is there some other problem in fish that have them? Is the reason not to breed these guys a health reason or is it because most breeding programs seek to improve the species?

I just wonder because I have an orange feathertail male. Is that similar to a rose? When I picked him up from petco I thought that maybe he was a biter or that he had some finrot and that maybe he was clamped, but once he colored up and his finnage smoothed out, I realized that these "folds" were just a natural part of his tail. That led me to research these other less common fin types.

I don't have a good photo of him, but his finnage is similar to this:









Anyway, I was just curious since in my daydreams I often wondered if he'd have many fry with a pretty tail like his.  Even if I'm not breeding for real, I'd like to daydream as if I were a LEGIT breeder


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Rosetails are basically mutated halfmoons. There is so much branching on the tail, it folds and flops over on itself. Feathertails are a different kind of rosetail, with different branching structure. Breeders try to stay away from them because they are very difficult to breed consistently, and they usually come with a number of other malformations, too, like bad scaling, spinal problems and small ventrals, small bodies, and slow growth. A lot of breeders will cull any rosetails they see early on in their spawn. They are very difficult to breed out of a line.

Such a pity they come with such problems, they sure are gorgeous. Perhaps someone is currently working on breeding the defects out of this strain? And one day we can have normal, healthy, true breeding roses. :-D


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Agreed ^


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

also, someone i know bought rose tails, but they always seemed unhealthy. they'd die from something as simple as ick. so, their immune systems seem to be pretty weak, and that could be related to the rose tail trait...


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

OK, now y'all kinda got me worried.

I have one little boy, Arthur, that I got at Petco where he was listed as a HMPK, well, he's actually a double tail and his fins have gotten longer, even if they don't seem as long as a regular, long finned Half Moon, but I don't have a lot of betta experience, so who knows.

It does seem to me that my boy's fins are rather ruffled, and he has very, very short ventral fins.

I would kinda prefer he just be some sort of beautiful "mutt" than have possible genetic problems. I already worry enough because I've read that DTs can have challenges with SBD.

I don't know that the attached pics give a true idea of how fluffy his fins are, but maybe someone could tell me if he looks like he might be a rose or feather tail?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

No I wouldn't say rose tail but he just has really wonky/bad branching all over. So just bad fin breeding, nothing too serious.


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

Oh, good! Well, my first love is the Standard Poodle, where I'm all about proper breeding methods, I guess it's a good thing that my little guy's just a Petco fishie since he's apparently the equivalent of a BYB "mutt."

Thanks!

p.s. I still think he's lovely.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I like him! I just wouldn't breed him lol. I actually love every single betta. I'm just picky on my breeding fish lol.


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## sparkyjoe (Feb 27, 2012)

MrVampire181 said:


> I like him! I just wouldn't breed him lol. I actually love every single betta. I'm just picky on my breeding fish lol.



Oh, don't get me wrong! I *firmly* believe that only the best possible representatives of type should be used for breeding purposes.

In dogs, particularly Poodles, unscrupulous people have made all sorts of bad breeding choices in pursuit of profit. And you don't even want to get me started on the "Doodle" dogs. Ugh!

I might think a particular labradoodle or lhasa-poo is cute, or super smart, but I still call them mutts. JMHO.

So my little Arthur is a poorly bred, if beautiful, little mutt. That's cool!

Btw, MrV, I think your fish are lovely & I just might need to get one of your baby bettas one day.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

so basically, rose/feathertails are deformities on HM caudal finnages, so it wouldn't be a good idea to breed them.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

I breed Rosetails and I don't have deformed fish, nor did my spawns produce any rosetails. Rosetails are just normal halfmoons with lots and lots of branching, this is what causes the overlapping of the rays. 
The opposit of a rosetail would be a super delta or delta tail as they have a lack of rays thus preventing them from a full 180 degree spread.
Personally, I use Rosetails when I am in need of more branching out of the spawn.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

You're probably not breeding rose tails. Rose tails WILL give you deformities. No way around it.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

MrVampire181 said:


> You're probably not breeding rose tails. Rose tails WILL give you deformities. No way around it.


I dunno, when I posted this male everyone told me he was rose-tail, this was back before I had spawned him. Whats your opinion?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

He has a lot of branching but personally I don't see RT. RT often has a lot of other issues, like bad scaling, problems with disease etc.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

copperbarian has a RT and had a spawn, the son had a scale deformity wasn't sure about the sister's


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I personally would just breed to HMPK. It improves fins and body types.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Not all RT are deformed. But they are likely to be carrier of deformities. Problems usually arise if you breed a RT x RT or RT x 8 ray. That's why I said it's safer to make your own RT. Then you'd know how and what it's bred to - I don't trust bought RT because I don't know it's background. And by chance I got a bad carrier which gave me deformities for generations - making me fear them for breeding.

Like DT - not all are deformed. But they're most likely carriers. 
8ray x 8ray = RT (F1) mild carriers
RT x RT = Many will physically show deformities and the genes will be stronger (F2)
RT x RT = More will physically show deformities and the genes will be fixed (F3)
The more you inbreed, the worse it gets. Though not 100% will show deformities, but 100% will at least be severe carriers in F3 and will pass it on for generations.

Since RT often have small/thin rays, it would be best to cross them to thick ray/finned and with fewer branching. Hopefully the deformities will not stick to your line. Then later, take the 8 rays and inbreed to get RT again - like DT. So it's constantly an in and out breeding process.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

indjo said:


> Not all RT are deformed. But they are likely to be carrier of deformities. Problems usually arise if you breed a RT x RT or RT x 8 ray. That's why I said it's safer to make your own RT. Then you'd know how and what it's bred to - I don't trust bought RT because I don't know it's background. And by chance I got a bad carrier which gave me deformities for generations - making me fear them for breeding.
> 
> Like DT - not all are deformed. But they're most likely carriers.
> 8ray x 8ray = RT (F1) mild carriers
> ...


I agree with this completely. :-D

In every spawn with DT I get half deformed DT's with bad spines and half regular DT's, but I still know the value of the DT in halfmoon lines.
If we never bred DT's into our halfmoon lines because they are technically deformed and always produce more deformed fish, we would not have the beautiful halfmoons that we do today.
Rosetails are just as important to the halfmoon line as DT's, whether some know it or not. I also don't think that the RT mutation is as bad as the DT when it comes to producing deformed fish. It's almost guaranteed in a DT spawn to get at least some bent spines but in a RT to HM cross you can have an entire spawn with no deformities. 
IMHO people are jumping the gun on the RT and I am happy to fill the void till everyone else catches on to the importance of the RT.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Like me, many have gotten severe RT and have had bad experience. I am truly afraid to breed RT. I would breed other deformities. I believe that other deformities are easier to breed out or only have very little affect on the whole batch. So I can understand why they're against breeding RT..... better safe than sorry.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

indjo said:


> Like me, many have gotten severe RT and have had bad experience. I am truly afraid to breed RT. I would breed other deformities. I believe that other deformities are easier to breed out or only have very little affect on the whole batch. So I can understand why they're against breeding RT..... better safe than sorry.



That's what makes the betta hobby so fun and diverse. With so many different breeders/genetics and different idea's, the bettas just get better and better and more diverse. :-D


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettas Rule said:


> That's what makes the betta hobby so fun and diverse. With so many different breeders/genetics and different idea's, the bettas just get better and better and more diverse. :-D


So true - the reason why I always return to bettas.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

indjo said:


> So true - the reason why I always return to bettas.


 
Same here! I'm always daydreaming about being the next breeder who produces a different variety of betta. Maybe a triple tail, or double anal fin. Heehee. :lol: 

I had a two headed guppy fry once. :shock:


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

It appears that yes the Rosetail (feathertail) is wraught with problems, but there are many breeders using them to back cross for increased numbers of HM. Also there is a hope that the Rosetail could lead to the promise of a Full Moon Betta! Now that would be a sight!

Two headed guppy? EWWWWW!!! I don't want any two headed Bettas!

If a rosetail is stunted and deformed and has bad scales, then culled he/she is. But then I see some beautiful rosetails online!!

Jeff.


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