# HE'S GONNA BLOW!!! Next steps for constipation???



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Here's a pic. Since I took it he's gotten even bigger. He's got 3 tsp epsom salts per gallon in his tank, and I've been feeding him more lightly than usual (teeny pinch of dried daphnia, or a pellet or two of Hikari Betta Gold) once a day, and I skip feeding him at all every couple of days. How long will this take to resolve? (It's been several weeks now that I've been doing epsom salts and daphnia.) Is there something more I can do? Is it possible this could kill him?

I'll fill out the questionnaire below.

TIA!


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Housing 
What size is your tank? 2.5 gallons
What temperature is your tank? 80 degrees F
Does your tank have a filter?yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?no
Is your tank heated?yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with?java ferns, teeny snails

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari Betta Gold, dried daphnia
How often do you feed your betta fish?2x/day, 1 or 2 pellets at a time

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:0
pH:7.5
Hardness:dunno
Alkalinitydunno: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? BIG Belly
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? More sluggish than usual
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Big belly started creeping up maybe a month or two ago, it took us a while to realize what was going on.
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?3 tsp epsom salts per gallon, daphnia
Does your fish have any history of being ill? no
How old is your fish (approximately)? We've had him two years this May
Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 2x/week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?50%/75%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?
Nutra-Fin


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Stop feeding him completely for a few days maybe even a week. He won't starve and if you keep giving him food he may never be able to clear his system. Another thought is he could be eating the little snails. A large apple or mystery snail can be an ok tank mate (but not in that size container) but little snails aren't generally good because bettas may eat them - most I've seen do. Snails are also very dirty and muck up the water quickly and aren't generally a good idea in small tanks. I had one coexist with a tiny snail ok but I think I was just plain lucky because it was my first betta and I didn't really know what I was doing and it just happened to hitch a ride on a plant from the LFS, and in my infinite wisdom thought "hey, cool, free snail!" and it just worked. 

What does his poop look like? Have you seen any in the last week?

It looks like your water is good and your water changing habits are good.

I would switch pellets. Hikari used to make one of the best pellets but they've switched their ingredients and now it's just mostly full of wheat and other fillers. They tend to lead to constipation because of how much they swell. I would look for Omega One Betta Buffet (You can feed 2-4 like the Hikari) or New Life Spectrum Betta, which is my personal favorite. You can feed more like 5-8 split up into two or even three small meals because they're a lot smaller. I really like the NLS because they're the highest in protein, smaller, don't swell at all (in fact they're sink pretty quick if your guy isn't right on it) and have the fewest fillers.

Feeding freeze dried daphnia is alright but you need to thoroughly soak it in a little cup with some tank/dechlorinated water before feeding because it will also absorb a lot of moisture and freeze dried foods can also lead to constipation unless you soak, but daphnia is generally ok to feed occasionally to help regulate or during this problem.

Sooo.. I would

* Continue epsoms
* Give him a break from all food for a few days or even a week - until you see a lot of poop pass - then report back on what the poop looks like
* Switch pellets and soak any freeze dried food you supplements
* Try to remove the snails
* Be prepared that if his poo is white, clear, stringy or segmented he may need some meds. Look for Kanaplex by Seachem or Maracyn Plus as they can be hard to find but are the most effective on internal bacterial infections - which tends to happen with chronic long term constipation.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Give him 1/4 of a pea, fast him for up to a week, then get him on to better foods. Yes, they can die from being constipated, but it is usually from complications like starvation or infections. Mine died in the summer after a two month (that's right,two months) battle with severe constipation. 
Good luck!


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you choose to feed a pea you need to use fresh or frozen. The pea should be placed in a small microwaveable cup or dish of some kind that has never seen soap or chems. Nuke it for 10 seconds. At this point the shell should be easy to strip off (or sometimes they explode out of their shell in this time). You should see two halves inside the shell. You can break up as much as one half of it and fit a bit at a time or as little of 1/4 (half of one of the halves). 

Peas are not generally suggested here and definitely should not be fed very often because they are hard on the digestive tract. You will see him poop it completely undigested.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Thank you Callistra for the excellent plan! I had been wondering if it could be his food, I'll try the new food after fishy fasts for a couple of days. I also had been feeling as if I was missing something important just dumping the dried daphnia in his tank- I do remember that I needed to soak dried food for the fancy goldfish I had ages ago, but goldfish are so inbred and so prone to swim bladder problems I didn't realize I might have to do it for other fish too.

I haven't seen him poop for a long time. Last time I did it was like a little fat brown "C" but that was a long time ago. I'll keep an eye out for it.

I'll keep the pea in mind, but it sounds as if it'd be worthwhile to let him fast and then try the other foods first.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Progress report on poor fishy- if anything, he's gotten worse. His whole body looks misshapen. There's been no poop that I know of. He acts like he's starving and begs and begs for food when I change his water. It's been at least three days since I fed him. Here's a pic of the poor guy...


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Here's another pic:  Maybe it's time to break out the peas.....


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Peas do nothing good for him.
There seems to be a blockage.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You can see fluid build up. It's more than constipation. When you see fluid like that and it grows despite not feeding, it's time for a good internal antibiotic now. Be looking for Kanaplex by Seachem or Maracyn Plus (not to be confused with Maracyn or Maracyn II).

So he's been on 3 tsp per Gallon epsoms since the 27th? So that means in his 2.5g you're putting 7.5 tsp of epsoms? Continue this. I'd be doing 100% water changes every other day too, along with the redosing of meds and epsoms. I expect this to take 2 weeks to complete, but you should start seeing some good results in a few days..


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> You can see fluid build up. It's more than constipation. When you see fluid like that and it grows despite not feeding, it's time for a good internal antibiotic now. Be looking for Kanaplex by Seachem or Maracyn Plus (not to be confused with Maracyn or Maracyn II).
> 
> So he's been on 3 tsp per Gallon epsoms since the 27th? So that means in his 2.5g you're putting 7.5 tsp of epsoms? Continue this. I'd be doing 100% water changes every other day too, along with the redosing of meds and epsoms. I expect this to take 2 weeks to complete, but you should start seeing some good results in a few days..


OK, I'll order the meds now... wish my local pet stores carried these meds, but they don't! Of course, a lot of the time the meds they DO carry are expired anyway...

Yes, that's the epsom routine I've been following. I'm assuming when I start the meds he should be in a seperate hospital tank? I'm guessing these meds won't be good for plants.

Thanks again for your help!


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

The epsom salts are like plant fertilizers, but I'd do the antibiotics without plants.

Make sure whatever you move her to can be kept warm and do the extra water changes in there too. Good luck! Let us know how it goes in a few days..


----------



## Lindo (Dec 31, 2012)

How is he doing???


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Lindo said:


> How is he doing???


He looks awful. He's even bigger than when I took the pics yesterday. He still tries to swim a little, though. The medicine has been shipped, I hope it gets here in time to help!


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Is he at least in the epsom salts? If you have started at 1 tsp per gallon you can up it to 2 or even 3, so long as you do so very slowly. They will help buy him time if nothing else.

If the antibiotics are going to be too slow to ship you can try to find something else locally.. they don't have as high a likelihood to work in my experience but it may be better than waiting weeks for meds to ship..depending on how fast you marked for shipping. Furan 2 has a some potential and as does a source of Erythromycin.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> Is he at least in the epsom salts? If you have started at 1 tsp per gallon you can up it to 2 or even 3, so long as you do so very slowly. They will help buy him time if nothing else.
> 
> If the antibiotics are going to be too slow to ship you can try to find something else locally.. they don't have as high a likelihood to work in my experience but it may be better than waiting weeks for meds to ship..depending on how fast you marked for shipping. Furan 2 has a some potential and as does a source of Erythromycin.


Yup, he's in 3 tsp of epsom salts/gallon now, I did bring it up to that level fairly slowly.

I did get somewhat expedited shipping on the meds, my order should be here in 5 biz days at the latest- it's been marked as shipped, but the tracking # hasn't shown up in the system yet, so I don't know exactly when it will be here. I'm going by way of the pet store on Wednesday and if it looks like my order will be much later than that, I can check to see if they have Furan 2. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Parasite Clear by Jungle worked for me in a situation sort of like this, and General Cure by API has two of the four meds in Parasite Clear so it's less harsh. They may not work, but its something to try if you don't think that he can wait or you can't find the other meds she suggested.
Then again, all I have around here is a Walmart and Parasite Clear is all they had.

I will say that all the meds Callistra suggested are better, and probably will be more effective and less harsh than those two, but if he really starts going downhill, its something to think about. You probably don't have a tracking number because the meds probably haven't even left the warehouse yet.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks for the ideas for other meds! My tracking # is finally in the Fedex system and it says my meds should be here by Friday. Not ideal, but...


----------



## Perry the platypus (Aug 20, 2012)

There is something blocking the digestive system...


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

That's obviously more then constipation. Fluid build up is clearly visible. I honestly would try a tiny bit of pea, I know other people will say no but it works for many people. I hope your meds get there in time!


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

If he isnt passing what he has with espom salt(which actually aids in digestion) then a pea certainly isnt going to help.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Went to Petco today and they had nothing, nada. They had Maroxy and a couple of antifungals, but that was it. 

Hope my guy can hang on to Friday....


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Yeah petco doesn't really have meds.. that's the only aquarium supply store in your area? Have you tried yellowpages.com?


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> Yeah petco doesn't really have meds.. that's the only aquarium supply store in your area? Have you tried yellowpages.com?


There's another one I can try tomorrow. Last time I was there they *did* have one of the Maracyns (don't remember which) but it had long expired. :-(


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Went to the other pet store today and got Furan 2. Question- when the other med arrives Friday, should I discontinue the Furan 2, or should I run the whole course as directed anyway? TIA!


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you see no results in a couple days I would maybe actually add Kanaplex to it.. Furan 2 works well with Kanaplex. Or you could try to switch over. I would expect to see some sort of results within 2-4 days if it's going to work at all.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> If you see no results in a couple days I would maybe actually add Kanaplex to it.. Furan 2 works well with Kanaplex. Or you could try to switch over. I would expect to see some sort of results within 2-4 days if it's going to work at all.


Thanks for the info! I was thinking I might be able to do the two meds together, as they don't have the same ingredients.

Keeping fingers crossed for poor little fishy.... his abdomen is bigger than a marble right now. :-(


----------



## Perry the platypus (Aug 20, 2012)

Really? :shock:


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Im surprised he still even alive....if he is.


----------



## rubinthebetta (Oct 9, 2012)

I once saw a member on here who's betta fish had a tumor and the stomach looked like that. Maybe that's it? All I can do for you is pray and hope Sakura or a member on here with experience with this stuff sees this thread. I'll be praying for your fish and see if Google has any ideas that help cure him.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

He really is as big as a marble. And he's really still alive. He's being treated with Furan 2 now, and the Kanaplex (sp?) will arrive tomorrow.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Good luck.. poor boy


----------



## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah  keep us updated on how he is doing!


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm glad hes still fighting. I hope he clears up soon.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Got the Kanaplex, crossing fingers it works.

Question re med directions- both the Kanaplex and the Furan 2 have you build up the levels over a couple of days and then say you can repeat the procedure X number of times. Is "repeating the procedure" starting at the beginning level of the meds over again after a water change, or is it increasing the meds still more? TIA!


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Make sure to remove any carbon while treating.

Dose Furan 2 every 24 hours - full/normal dose. 50% water change every other day followed by same full dose of Kanaplex & Furan 2. 100% change at week's end. Meds lose their effectiveness after so long so full dose is needed. You're not really increasing anything.

Make sense?

Furan 2 is for 10g. Kanaplex level scoop is for 5g. Both will need to be dilluted.. this will need to be done every time you dose and extra mixture tossed.

Furan 2 - 10 dechlorinated/tank teaspoons water. Dissolve packet. 2.5 tsp in 2.5g tank. Kanaplex - 5 teaspoons dechlorinated/tank water. Dissolve level scoop. 2.5 tsp in 2.5g tank.

Let me know if the furan 2 doesn't dissolve well.. I can do a different ratio


----------



## Shewbert (Dec 16, 2012)

Hi
This is a method we have used for severe bloat (ie.bloat as in swelling of stomach and swim bladder)
buy some pure cod liver oil and an eye dropper type of pipette.
if he will take a small piece of pea, then soak the pea in the oil and give it to him, get the pipette and let 1 drop of the oil land on the surface of the water, when he goes to the surface to gulp air he will be dosing himself.
Cod liver oil is a natural laxative but it works a lot quicker than peas and daphnia.
Olive oil works in a similar way, but cod liver has a quicker reaction.

If this is parasitical, buy some Worm out Gel, it is actually a canary medicine for internal parasites and micro infections, add add 2 ml to each gallon of water, most bird de-wormers will do the job as long as it is a water based treatment, but do not place more than I have stated (2ml to each gallon of water.)

I know that this sounds a drastic treatment using bird medicine, but we use medicines that treat the infections, it is the same chemical make up but doses are different from animal to animal.
This fish needs instant treatment, it is in severe discomfort, whether it has bloat/infection a stronger treatment must be given in this case, follow the above instructions, the oil and wormer can be used at the same time.

Mandy, Marine Biologist/Vet
*
*


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> Make sure to remove any carbon while treating.
> 
> Dose Furan 2 every 24 hours - full/normal dose. 50% water change every other day followed by same full dose of Kanaplex & Furan 2. 100% change at week's end. Meds lose their effectiveness after so long so full dose is needed. You're not really increasing anything.
> 
> ...


Let me make sure I understand this correctly- I dissolve 1 packet of Furan 2 in 10 tsp tank water, and then use 2.5 tsp of this mixture in my 2.5 gallon tank.... I dissolve a level scoop of Kanaplex in 5 tsp tank water, and use 2.5 tsp of this mixture in my 2.5 gallon tank... correct?


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Shewbert said:


> Hi
> This is a method we have used for severe bloat (ie.bloat as in swelling of stomach and swim bladder)
> buy some pure cod liver oil and an eye dropper type of pipette.
> if he will take a small piece of pea, then soak the pea in the oil and give it to him, get the pipette and let 1 drop of the oil land on the surface of the water, when he goes to the surface to gulp air he will be dosing himself.
> ...


Found the cod liver oil. Was a trick to find PURE cod liver oil. Haven't found an anti-parasite yet.


----------



## Shewbert (Dec 16, 2012)

Has he eaten any peas or pooed yet? any parasites will show up as abnormally discolored poo or signs of worms
if it looks normal but hanging like a string he was constipated.
keep up the treatment but do not feed yet, just a bit of treated pea,,some daphnia wont hurt but not too many.
Temperature up a little and some air bubbling. If you are using Kanaplex & Furan 2 do not use Worm out Gel.
Be patient, once he starts to swim a bit better, the exercise will ease his discomfort
Mandy


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

He hasn't eaten anything and yet is growing. That is not constipation.. Feeding him laxatives will not help.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Shewbert said:


> Has he eaten any peas or pooed yet? any parasites will show up as abnormally discolored poo or signs of worms
> if it looks normal but hanging like a string he was constipated.
> keep up the treatment but do not feed yet, just a bit of treated pea,,some daphnia wont hurt but not too many.
> Temperature up a little and some air bubbling. If you are using Kanaplex & Furan 2 do not use Worm out Gel.
> ...


Gave him part of a pea soaked in cod liver oil, he didn't eat it. I haven't seen poo for a very, very long time. :-(


----------



## Shewbert (Dec 16, 2012)

I thought you were treating with KanaPlex as well as my advice, the kanamycin sulfate which is an active ingredient should have shown some results by now, the dosed pea should have produced a stool/poo, a description of color/condition of the stool will give an indication if the fish has an infection, constipation etc.
Not being able to see the fish makes this quite difficult to diagnose.
He does not seem to be reacting to any advice, if it was constipation or bloat would have been reducing his stomach by now, the Kanaplex or Furan 2 should be fairly well absorbed by the fish and at least showing some if only slight reaction.
All you can really do for now is keep up the treatment, and don't miss your water changes water changes, hopefully the treatment will eventually work.
Keep us all informed in his progress.
Ray


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

He only started Kanaplex 2 days ago.. it can take up to a week to see any significant result, but one would hope within 2-3 days.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Shewbert said:


> I thought you were treating with KanaPlex as well as my advice, the kanamycin sulfate which is an active ingredient should have shown some results by now, the dosed pea should have produced a stool/poo, a description of color/condition of the stool will give an indication if the fish has an infection, constipation etc.
> Not being able to see the fish makes this quite difficult to diagnose.
> He does not seem to be reacting to any advice, if it was constipation or bloat would have been reducing his stomach by now, the Kanaplex or Furan 2 should be fairly well absorbed by the fish and at least showing some if only slight reaction.
> All you can really do for now is keep up the treatment, and don't miss your water changes water changes, hopefully the treatment will eventually work.
> ...


Yup, that's what I"m doing, only he hasn't eaten any peas yet, and no poo to report on. I tried again yesterday to feed him a pea. He's pretty much the same as he's been- sluggish, eating very little, big as a marble. I'll try to post some current pics today- be warned, they won't be pretty. :-(


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Quick question- the instructions for Kanaplex say to dose him every other day, should I be doing it every day instead? I'm wondering if it may be necessary with the frequent water changes. As Callistra has suggested I'm doing the Furan 2 every day.


----------



## Shewbert (Dec 16, 2012)

no overdosing is not advised, stick to the stated dose, 
he is still with us and not really showing signs of further deterioration.
so the medication seems to at least be holding the sickness at bay.
just keep up the treatment, water changes, higher temp and aeration for now.
try a little daphnia now and then but if he wont eat it, don't force him.
Ray


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Here's a pic of him today. :-(


----------



## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Has he improved at all?


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

FishyFishy89 said:


> Has he improved at all?


No. :-( I suppose he hasn't died yet, either, for what it's worth. :-(


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Are you using Kanaplex and Furan 2 together?

So sorry this is not helping


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> Are you using Kanaplex and Furan 2 together?
> 
> So sorry this is not helping


Yup, using those two meds together. 

I really appreciate all your help- even if he doesn't make it (and I'm not making any bets he will) I've learned a lot for the next betta we will have.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It's hard in things like this when you know you're balancing out time to know when to abandon treatment and try something new, but I can tell you if this bacterial that Kanapelx and Furan 2 are your best bet. I would expect to see improvement with the week and complete turn around at 2.. 

How long has it been since he's eaten anything?


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

callistra said:


> It's hard in things like this when you know you're balancing out time to know when to abandon treatment and try something new, but I can tell you if this bacterial that Kanapelx and Furan 2 are your best bet. I would expect to see improvement with the week and complete turn around at 2..
> 
> How long has it been since he's eaten anything?


Hard to tell. I've been giving him a pinch of daphnia once a day/once every other day, and sometimes he strikes up at the top of the water but I'm not sure he's gotten anything.


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 28, 2011)

callistra said:


> You can see fluid build up. It's more than constipation. When you see fluid like that and it grows despite not feeding, it's time for a good internal antibiotic now. Be looking for Kanaplex by Seachem or Maracyn Plus (not to be confused with Maracyn or Maracyn II).


How can you distinguish signs of fluid buildup?

*btook:* Any progress?


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Nightingale said:


> How can you distinguish signs of fluid buildup?
> 
> *btook:* Any progress?


Not sure. :-( He was swimming around a lot more yesterday but he still looks pretty awful.


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

It's been a week he's been on Furan 2 and Kanaplex and the best I can say is, he's still alive. How much longer do you think I should try? Is it time to euthanize him? I have a hard time imagining doing that... he still reacts when I go over to his tank, fluttering his fins and coming up to the top to look for food....  But at the same time, there may be no point to prolonging his suffering. He's as big as a marble, he hasn't eaten or pooped for ages, a lot of the time he just lies on his side on the bottom of the tank...  Thoughts?


----------



## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

What about soaking the food in metro and feeding the meds, Callistra?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I would have expected to see a change by now if the meds were going to work. There's a chance that they need more time.. I've seen it take two weeks to turn around.. but most of the time you'll see something by now.

I would try feeding meds as a last ditch effort.. I don't know how long he can last like that.

Get a good soaking pellet.. one whose first ingredient is wheat is ideal. I've used Hikari with good success. Get API's General Cure. Some Garlic Guard by Seachem might be helpful but isn't necessary. 

Put a small amount of either dechlorinated/tank water or the garlic guard in a cup along with one full dose of the general cure. Mix it around well and try to get it as dissolved as you can. Put pellets in the liquid and let it soak 10-15 minutes. Feed 2 of these pellets twice a day. If it works, he should poop in the next few days and you should continue feeding for a 3-4 weeks to prevent relapse. Mix this fresh each time you feed (either 2x daily) or save the morning mix in covered in the fridge, bring back to room temp and feed again in the pm. It will need to be mixed up fresh at least once a day.


----------



## Irishdancer (Apr 5, 2011)

How is he doing now?


----------



## Hopelessaddict101 (Dec 30, 2012)

Could it be internal parasites or early beginnings of Dropsy? That's how one of my rescued ones started


----------



## btook (Dec 14, 2012)

Irishdancer said:


> How is he doing now?


Thanks for asking. He's gone. :-( He's been gone for a couple of days, but haven't managed to bring myself to post it up until now.

I really appreciated everyone's help and support with this.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm so sorry


----------



## Hopelessaddict101 (Dec 30, 2012)

So sorry for your loss


----------



## Irishdancer (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm sorry.  Losing a pet is tough. Hope you're doing okay emotionally.


----------



## Picasso84 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss, you did everything you could've done, and he was definitely a fighter. I hope that you are ok right now, I know how hard it is to lose a dear pet


----------



## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

ive been silently following this thread and your plight to save him. IM so sorry for your loss and hope he is in a better place now.


----------

