# "White Dragon King Crown Betta" Breeding Possibility



## jr591

(photoshopped image)

Because of this picture my interest in bettas was reignited since I had one in a little .5 gal tank in 2nd grade. I extensively researched bettas for the past few months and it's all been really exciting. Because of all this extensive forum lurking and Google searching, I learned several things-- 1) The label people slapped onto it to make viral isn't even correct and 2) the above image is photoshopped.









(original image)

I learned about how betta genetics worked and realized that, if I'm not mistaken, the first image is totally possible to breed. It would take a lot of time and effort, but it is doable. When I start breeding bettas, I would want to breed a Black Dragonscale Cross-Ray Crowntail Giant betta.

My question to more seasoned breeders would be this: how would you go about pairing off fish to accomplish this breeding goal? Considering what I see available on the market, I was thinking of starting by crossing a male black dragon giant HMPK with a female black dragon CT. However, since I'm new to the hobby I'm thinking about starting with a black dragon CT pair and crossing the giant HMPK after breeding the CT pair's offspring together for a generation or two because 1) I've been told giants are not the best variety to jump into the hobby with and 2) I want to get experience raising spawns and 3) I don't want to base my line's "crowntail-ness" off of one female because I don't quite have an eye for what a good female looks like yet. So after breeding black dragon CT's for awhile, I plan on outcrossing to a black dragon giant HMPK, crossing the best fish I get out of the F1, the best from F2, and so on until I reach my goal. What are your thoughts and suggestions on my plan? I'm open to critique and want to be as well informed as possible.


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## ToniMarieHolka

i can not see the pictures try using this site to upload pictures http://cubeupload.com/


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## jr591

Here's the photoshopped image:
http://i.cubeupload.com/COXTff.jpg

And here's the original:
http://i.cubeupload.com/zFQLqP.jpg


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## ToniMarieHolka

I think maybe try to find a white dragon ct female


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## jr591

The body color I'm going for is black, not white.


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## ToniMarieHolka

yea well I have only bred a few times and they were successful but i no longer have females


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## BettaMummy87

They could have at least photoshopped the reflection too.  

Definitely doable, as I have been looking at imprting a black dragon hmpk with colours almost exactly like the photoshopped image. Not sure, but I would probably work on achieving finnage, then colour, then maybe get the giant in. But I have not looked at breeding for giants yet. So, yes, i would go much the same way as you from what i have read. Good idea on building experience first.


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## jr591

I've been looking at Aquabid and I haven't been able to find any black dragon CT's. To get a black dragon CT I was thinking of perhaps crossing a black metallic CT with a black dragon HM, both of which seems to be more common on AB. If I'm not mistaken this will also improve the spread of the CT. Thoughts?


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## hrutan

It's best to breed CT to CT, if you can, due to how messy ray reduction will get from outcrossing. But, sometimes there's no real choice about it. If you breed an HM with a good spread, it should improve the spread of the offspring. Then you'll want to look at the offspring and pick the ones with the dragon characteristics with the best ray reduction. You should get what you're looking for eventually, but it may take time to do.

Make sure if you're crossing black male to black female, that the female is not from melano stock, or you'll be stuck with either no or very very few fry due to fertility issues. Use the "ask the breeder a question" link on Aquabid and make sure before you bid.

Alternately, you can try breeding another color of CT to black dragon HM, if you can't find a black female that's not melano. I am not sure how dragonscaling and black interact, but if the black is melano, breeding siblings from a melano x (other) spawn will yield some black offspring, since melano is a simple recessive. Theoretically it should yield about 25% melano on average, but this seems to vary wildly.


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## lilnaugrim

The first would be labeled a Black Dragonscale Cross Ray CT, the second image is actually not a dragonscale but a Super Black with a teeny bit of Copper scale but no dragon scale by any means.

So are you going for Super Black or Black Dragon because Black Dragon is a black skinned fish (base layer and fins would be solid) and then it'd have thick scales on top that are white.


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## TerriGtoo

jr591 said:


> (photoshopped image)
> 
> Because of this picture my interest in bettas was reignited since I had one in a little .5 gal tank in 2nd grade. I extensively researched bettas for the past few months and it's all been really exciting. Because of all this extensive forum lurking and Google searching, I learned several things-- 1) The label people slapped onto it to make viral isn't even correct and 2) the above image is photoshopped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohmigosh! My heart went into my throat when I saw that first pic. I immediately thought I HAVE to get him if he is on aquabid.
> Then I saw that nasty little phrase "photoshopped".
> My heart sunk. i knew it was too good to be true!


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## jr591

@hrutan Thanks for warning me about female melanos. I knew about the infertility of melano females before but it didn't even occur to me that black dragons could potentially get their skin coloration from the melano gene. I'm now wondering, are black dragon lines derived from melanos, black lace, or super blacks?

@lilnaugrim The first image is a photoshopped version of the second image. I am going for a Black Dragonscale Cross Ray CT, but I would really like it to also be a giant. It's very ambitious of me, and it will most likely be a long-term goal. Right now it looks like I'm going to have to try to get the dragonscale genes, black coloring, and crowntail genes together before outcrossing to a black dragon giant HMPK to get those giant genes into the mix.

@TerriGtoo I had the same reaction when I found out it was photoshopped! It still served as inspiration though, so it's not all bad.

This question goes out to everyone: do you know where black dragon lines get their coloration from (melano, black lace, or super black)? Also, what would be the best approach to perfecting the web reduction in the CT's? Should I perfect the web reduction before or AFTER I introduce the black dragon giant HMPK into the gene pool (I feel as though it would be a waste to perfect it only to get it mucked up again by throwing in the HMPK).


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## hrutan

Hmm. It's probably melano, since that's a pretty common black type, and relatively simple to work with. I couldn't find much online, except verifying that black dragons do indeed exist. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in.

Giants are hard. You'll probably want to introduce that early and select for size over generations, remembering that even in a giant x giant cross, you might, _maybe _get 30% giants in a spawn, and that giants in general are quite delicate and need very particular health considerations, and that they are freaking expensive (lol).

Where you start depends on what you can get for breeding material...


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## lilnaugrim

Sorry I think I misread when you said you wanted black base. So you want a fish that looks like the first image, correct?


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## jr591

Yep! Except a giant.


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## indjo

To my understanding black dragons are at least melano x copper x dragon. . . . or black copper x dragon. Black dragons are more copper than black and most do not have intense black fins (like the picture) but if you keep adding melanos to the line, I don't see why your goal isn't possible. I've seen a dominantly red (body and fin) red dragon due to constantly adding red . . . similar principle. But keep in mind that black is recessive so your goal might be harder to achieve.

If you can't find a black dragon CT, you'll have to work towards it. Use a female HM/OHM to a male CT - either black dragons or black dragon x black copper. Using non irid based dragons would work too, but you'll need more generations to clean the red out. Irid dragons will dominate the copper and you'll end up with a majority of irids. . . . you may have to breed until F2-3 to get copper dragons/black dragons.

BTW, don't worry about the females. They should be fertile. Only fairly pure melano females are infertile.

Sorry, I don't mean to discourage you, but giants aren't for beginners. They frustrate even experienced breeders. So if you can, just forget about them and concentrate on black dragon CT. But if you can't . . . . there are quite a few black dragon PK giants (not sure about HMs). You can cross them to your CT. As stated above Giants x giants will only (if lucky) give you 30% giants. So you will only produce bigger than usual fry with giant appetite and weaknesses.

Pros: CT x PK will enlarge the rays, making your CT fins more firm.
Cons: CT x Giant PK will ruin the color you have established
Will most likely produce bigger than usual bettas (not giants)
Messy ray reduction.

Therefore you will have to breed the biggest black copper "half" CT. You will need to get as many fry survive to ensure you get that "30%" and can continue your line. Keep breeding siblings that carry all the desired traits until you achieve your goal.
note: you can only safely inbreed for 6 generations. So if you don't achieve your goal by then, you'll have to use new genes/fish which may become a setback.
At the same time you will have to work on getting black giants as well because the common black dragons do not have intense black fins. Thus to return them to your ideal color, you will have to breed black to black dragons. . . .
too much work for a beginner.


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## sharkettelaw1

like the above said, only pure melano females are infertile. Those with Irids are fertile. Irids indicate they arent pure so they'll be fertile. And i dont believe the pic is photo shopped. My friend deals with a breeder who breeds that specific colour type Dragon. (white based body and black fins)


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## jr591

indjo said:


> At the same time you will have to work on getting black giants as well because the common black dragons do not have intense black fins. Thus to return them to your ideal color, you will have to breed black to black dragons. . . .
> too much work for a beginner.


I'm not sure I understand when to breed black back into the line. Should I cross the "biggest black copper "half" CT" with a melano to return to the ideal black color? Or should I breed the black back in at a later generation?



indjo said:


> Sorry, I don't mean to discourage you, but giants aren't for beginners. They frustrate even experienced breeders. So if you can, just forget about them and concentrate on black dragon CT.


I understand that giants are difficult. I realize that I have no experience raising fry, so I don't want to get into giants in the near future. But perhaps after I have a better understanding of rearing fry by raising black dragon CT for several generations, I can try my hand at giants? I just can't help but admire their massive size. I have a Petco King male betta and a Petco Halfmoon male betta as pets and I am amazed at how even a king dwarfs regular sized bettas. Seeing and breeding real giants would be a a lot of fun, once I build up knowledge and experience working with regular bettas.


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## jr591

sharkettelaw1 said:


> And i dont believe the pic is photo shopped. My friend deals with a breeder who breeds that specific colour type Dragon. (white based body and black fins)


From what I've seen online, black dragons are somewhat common, but only in the HMPK tail variant. I've seen very few black dragon CT's. Also, the photoshopped image still has the reflection from the original-- a strong indication that it is indeed photoshopped.


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## sharkettelaw1

i've been trying to view the reflection, but all i can see is the beard and finnage so i cant say the reflection proves anything. Im checking again


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## BettaMummy87

sharkettelaw1 said:


> i've been trying to view the reflection, but all i can see is the beard and finnage so i cant say the reflection proves anything. Im checking again



The tail fins are also *identical* in both pictures, as are the reflections... but the poses of the fish are different (due to overlaying a dragonscales head I assume  One of them is photoshopped. Its so easy to do too.


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## jr591

I'm looking through AB and found some fish that I would want to pair. What are your thoughts, guys?

I want to pair either of these males:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1412730604
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1412323617

With this female:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettasct&1412218204

The first male's anal fin is kinda long, and the second male has some red wash in his dorsal and ventrals. I don't know which trait is more undesirable.

Another pairing that I found interesting would be either of these Black Orchid CT males:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettasct&1412656204
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettasct&1412707578

With any of these females:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1412224802
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1412348403
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1412353919

The first female's scaling went over her eyes, which I don't like, but she's on the list because she's HM. I really like the other two females but they're HMPK and I don't know how difficult it would be to breed out the short fins.

I would appreciate any input on these hypothetical pairs. I don't know if I'll buy them but this will be good opportunity for me to train my eye for desirable traits and learning what thoughts go into making pairs.


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## indjo

jr591 said:


> I'm not sure I understand when to breed black back into the line. Should I cross the "biggest black copper "half" CT" with a melano to return to the ideal black color? Or should I breed the black back in at a later generation?


Black dragons do not have intense black fins. To achieve such intensity, you will have to reintroduce melanos a few times.

Crossing your ideal color (black dragon with intense black fins) to non black giants will ruin that intense color. So to return them to intense black you will have to add melano . . . thus you will have to keep melano giant CT as well. Otherwise you will only end up with common black dragons giants.

Each trait you want will have to be "maintained" because they are not common. Working for 3 traits at once is difficult. So it's best reduce work load in this respect. I suggest you:
1. Work for giant black dragon CT
2. work for giant melano CT
Then cross the two lines.

Regular black dragon CT x giant black copper PK =
partial dragon scale - CT geno - giant geno . . . . . you want to inbreed siblings carrying ALL three traits.

If lucky, you might get them in F1, but IME it often takes more generations to obtain the ideal specimen. And when they are inbred, they might not produce what we want. So assuming you will have similar experiences, you will eventually achieve giant black dragon CT . . .with regular/common black fins.

To return them to intense black, you will have to add melano. If you add regular sized melano, you will have to redo everything. But if you have giant melano CT, thus you will only work for color.

I suggest you add melano CT after you have achieved ideal size and fins. You can actually add melano any time . . . . I mean, you can work for all three traits - intense black fins, giant, and CT - at once. But this will be very difficult. Luck plays a big role.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . 

I don't like the CT - both form and color. IMO you should look for a better CT. The Dragons are not perfect, but doable.


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## jr591

So should I maintain both lines at the same time? And with regard to maintaining the giant melano CT line-- to circumvent the infertility of melano females, should I be breeding melano geno females instead?


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## indjo

If you can get the color to breed true (regular sized CT), then you'd probably don't need to. But if every time you cross breed them and they don't become ideal colors, then yes - you should keep 2 lines of giants.

When maintaining a line of melanos, you will have to also keep (at least) blue to cross to them. I'm not sure what'll happen if you crossed them to black dragons . . . I mean can you maintain the melano trait. If yes, you won't need blue. In any case, you will have melano geno females that should be fertile.


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## jr591

I have a question about the Regular black dragon CT x giant black copper PK pair you mentioned earlier. I've read somewhere that when crossing giants to regulars that it's best to have the male be the giant as having giant females will make it difficult for the regular sized male to wrap around the female. In this situation, does the CT being male matter more than the female's size?

Also, how should I start the giant melano CT line in terms of what to pair up?


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## jr591

I apologize for double posting. I just want some clarification on this idea. If I wanted to establish the Giant Melano CT line, could I pair up the Regular Black Dragon CT with a Giant Melano PK and select for the traits Giant, Melano, and CT; while at the same time taking the same Regular Black Dragon CT (or a sibling) and breeding that to a Giant Black Copper PK and breed for the traits Giant, Dragonscale, and CT. That way I'll have two different (but related) lines going, which I can cross eventually. Is this the correct way to do it?


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## indjo

Male giant x female regular . . . is only for embracing purposes. Using giant females, may be difficult to embrace and fertilize eggs properly. Further, Giant females might fight regular males instead. 

You can either use a melano geno female (though this may take longer) or use a melano male to a young giant female. But in this case you will have to know that the giant female has a good giant background. Otherwise you might not get giant genos.

Yes you can do it that way. But IMO it would be better if you made two different and unrelated lines. One you work towards dragon CT and the other towards melano CT. That way you can inbreed much further since adding new genetics before your goal is achieved is risking starting over.

This works for birds. I haven't tried fish, but considering they are more tolerant, it should be safe too.
F0 - make 2 or 3 batches.
F1 - cross the batches. Make 2 batch of each pair
F2 - cross the batches . . . . . . and so on

The principle is getting them less related in each generation. This should allow you to inbreed for more generations. 

I know it sounds like tons of work . You can actually reduce work load if you can find an ideal black dragon (or any trait) that already breads true. . . . you won't need to add melano thus don't need a melano line.


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## BlueInkFish

It's very sneaky of the breeder to photoshop a fish they don't even own...

If one of you breeders out there breed a fish like this... Hook me up!! XD!


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## jr591

indjo said:


> This works for birds. I haven't tried fish, but considering they are more tolerant, it should be safe too.
> F0 - make 2 or 3 batches.
> F1 - cross the batches. Make 2 batch of each pair
> F2 - cross the batches . . . . . . and so on


I don't think I quite understand. What do you mean by making "batches"? By making 2 or 3 F0 batches do you mean starting with 2 or 3 pairs of unrelated parents?


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## indjo

Breed F0 more than once and make F1A, F1B, F1C
Breed F1A to F1B or C and make F2A, F2B, F2C, F2D
Breed F2A - B and F2C - D And make F3A, B, C, D . . . . . and so on

This is my way of inbreeding. But I have never gone beyond F4. I always add new genetics by then. This system is safe with birds (forgot how many generations). 

Yes you will end up with thousands of fry/juvies. In my case I can rehome them early so I don't usually have more than I could handle. Besides, I never worked for 3 traits at once . . . eg. making a super black giant PK. I start with regular black PK and what ever PK giant. All I worry about is getting big blacks.

Sounds simple, right? But it's easier said than done (nowadays). It's been 2 yrs and I haven't gotten anywhere - too many misfortunes.


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## jr591

I don't think I'll be able to use that method, as I lack the money, time, and the space. :/

I'm considering getting the melano giant PK and the black dragon giant PK from Surat Bhutipanya if/when they are ready. However, finding black dragon CT's has proven to be difficult. If I can't find one I may have to breed it myself. I have a question regarding the black finnage in the picture I posted: is adding melano really necessary to achieve that black or can I do without it? I would much rather not put more money into breeding an entirely separate line of melanos if I can avoid it.

Another question: when breeders have achieved the form, finnage, and color they want, how do they continue it? I would assume that once they have achieved their goal that several generations of inbreeding have gone by, so how do they not lose the traits they worked so hard for to outcrossing?


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## indjo

1. Cross breed to a recessive color 
2. or to a color from the same color line
3. to similar color

If you have the form, Use your females. Good males are easier to find. And I truly believe female passes more form than males.


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## jr591

Thank you so much!


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