# Is a newly curved spine definitely TB? :(



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

Help! My betta is ill and I can't figure out what's wrong! Research has made me think it might just be swim bladder disease, but he's looking really rough and when moving him to a quarantine tank tonight he appears to have an S curve in his spine that I am pretty sure wasn't there before. Can a sudden curved spine be caused by anything that's NOT TB, or is he a goner?  

He's a dumbo betta who has always been not so active (He has trouble swimming fast because of his fins) but has been seeming a bit depressed in the last few weeks (but looked okay). I returned from a week long trip this weekend (during which I think he was overfed) to find him lying on the bottom of the tank under a plant, very lethargic and muted in color. There's also been a bit of algae growth in my tank in the last 2 weeks, so I thought a regular tank cleaning might perk him up. 75% water change on Sunday had no improvement, I tested the water and everything's fine, did another 50% water change today, and moved him into a quarantine 1 gallon shortly after when I noticed a bit of fuzz on one fin. No signs of external or internal infection otherwise. I haven't fed him in 2 days in case it's swim bladder. 

He just looks so sad and sick and I feel awful because I don't know how to make him feel better!

This is what he looked like over the weekend:
http://i.imgur.com/2IHXoGu.jpg

This is what he looks like in his quarantine tank (he's draped over the plant piece):
http://i.imgur.com/MLFiDIN.jpg

Housing
*What size is your tank?* 10 gallons
*What temperature is your tank?* 76 degrees Fahrenheit
*Does your tank have a filter?* Yes
*Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?* No
*Is your tank heated? *No
*What tank mates does your betta fish live with?* 3 kuhli loaches, several plants, unintentional snails that are removed on a regular basis, a tufa rock that lowers the pH slightly. 

Food
*What type of food do you feed your betta fish?*
Aqueon Betta pellets, ocasionally freeze dried bloodworms.
*How often do you feed your betta fish?*
Every night or every other day if I can't get him to come to the surface for food. 

Maintenance
*How often do you perform a water change?* Every other week
*What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?* 75%
*What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?* API stress coat, a pinch of aquarium salt

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
*Ammonia*: 0
*Nitrite*:0
*Nitrate*: 10
*pH*: 6.6
*Hardness*: 50
*Alkalinity*: 80

Symptoms and Treatment
*How has your betta fish's appearance changed?*
His colors are very muted and more gray, and he appears to have a "S" shape in his spine when viewed from above. I also noticed today a small patch of white fuzzy growth on the edge of one of his fins. Definitely no raised scales. He may be a bit bloated, or I may be imagining that. 
*How has your betta fish's behavior changed?*
He's been spending most of his time lying curved on the bottom of the tank, on his side, and/or hiding in the plants. He's been less active for a few weeks. (tank mates seem fine)
*When did you start noticing the symptoms?*
3 days ago for the lying on the bottom of the tank, a few weeks for being less active. 
*Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?*
I did a 75% water change on Sunday, and then a 50% water change today, with no change. I just isolated him in a 1 gallon quarantine tank with a spring of plant, and a half dose of Bettafix.
*Does your fish have any history of being ill?*
Nope. He's a dumbo betta and has always had a little difficulty swimming/not been the most active fish, but never been sick. 
*How old is your fish (approximately)?*
Bought in September of Last Year, was fully grown at the time.


----------



## spoiledbetta (Oct 6, 2014)

Do you know the temperature of the water? Bettas usually like warmer waters and can become less active when the water is cold. 
Do you know if anything may have happened to him while you away? Anything out of the norm? 
I would suggest a 100% water change with bettafix or aquarium salt. Once you've treated the water, leave him for a day. No food. Hopefully he should get better. Make sure to use live plants and not plastic as plastic can cause his fins to tear. 
My betta has a slightly curved spine but he is perfectly healthy and currently breeding.

I really hope he gets better!!


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

My tank is about 76 degrees. My old thermometer was a little off and looked 75 degrees, so I went out and bought a heater yesterday in case a one or two degree increase would help. Since he's been in a hospital tank since yesterday evening, I haven't had a chance to use it.

As far as I know, the only thing that happened while I was gone was probable overfeeding? Should I not feed him at all for a few days? I've currently got him in a half dose of bettafix and he's draped himself over the small bit of plant I added to his quarantine tank, so he's floating at the top of bowl. He seems to be tolerating the bettafix so I'm going to up it to 75% and do a full water change this evening. 

Thank you! 



spoiledbetta said:


> Do you know the temperature of the water? Bettas usually like warmer waters and can become less active when the water is cold.
> Do you know if anything may have happened to him while you away? Anything out of the norm?
> I would suggest a 100% water change with bettafix or aquarium salt. Once you've treated the water, leave him for a day. No food. Hopefully he should get better. Make sure to use live plants and not plastic as plastic can cause his fins to tear.
> My betta has a slightly curved spine but he is perfectly healthy and currently breeding.
> ...


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

I am now worried my fish might have Columnaris in conjunction with possible SWB! 

The small bit of fin that had white fuzz on it had fallen off during the night, and as I was removing it I noticed more white fuzz on another fin that I don't think was there previously. (but the edges of his fin are already white, so I'm not 100% sure)

What's the best way to treat this? a Methylene Blue bath? I see also aquarium salt is supposed to help, but won't salt hurt if he does have SWB?


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

This is not TB, he'd pretty much be dead by now if it was or at least a lot worse than he looks right now. He honestly just looks like a lazy fish to me. I used to have a HM male who'd drape himself over plants as well just like your boy and just lay there for a while.

Has this tank been set up for a while and gone through the cycling period?

The fuzz actually sounds more like Saprolengia than Columnaris. Was it a white fuzz, a grey fuzz, solid fuzz, more of a spikey ball type fuzz? Describe it in as much detail as you can remember. I ask because Saprolengia would cause the fin part to fall off, Columnaris may do that but it's more characteristic of Saprolengia.

And SWB, do you mean Swim Bladder Disorder (SBD)?


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

So glad to hear it's not TB, though I'm still worried! The tank has been going for about a year and a half and is cycled. But I vacuumed up a lot of extra food when I got back from my trip (As I mentioned, my mom overfed while I was away last week), so the water quality probably took a turn for the worse while I was gone. 

He is normally pretty lazy and spends a lot of time lying on plants, but is usually not lying on the floor of the tank, which is where he was the last few days. Also, while inspecting him this morning, it looks like he is having trouble staying upright, which is why he's floating on his side. He does seem a bit more active in the quarantine tank when I approach, but I don't know if it's because I'm more visible since he's not hiding in a plant and he feels exposed. I don't know if it could maybe be constipation? He doesn't look very bloated but the part right behind his face seems kind of big compared to the rest of his body. Or the rest of his body could be thin. 

Sorry, yes, Swim Bladder Disorder! Don't know why I said SWB. 

I think you are totally right about the Saprolengia. What I saw was a white, fluffy, thready fuzz, and only on the fins, not the body. When I was doing an image search for a reference, this hit came up, which is marked Saprolengia, so that must be right? 
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/images/graphics/saprolegnia5.jpg
or this: 
http://www.shroomery.org/images/23418/cobweb1.jpg

What's the best way to treat this? He's in some Bettafix now, but I want to go after work to buy the proper meds so I can treat him tonight. Should I feed him? I bought some frozen baby brine shrimp yesterday hoping it would cheer him up but if he's constipated brine shrimp could make it worse? 



lilnaugrim said:


> This is not TB, he'd pretty much be dead by now if it was or at least a lot worse than he looks right now. He honestly just looks like a lazy fish to me. I used to have a HM male who'd drape himself over plants as well just like your boy and just lay there for a while.
> 
> Has this tank been set up for a while and gone through the cycling period?
> 
> ...


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can stop using the BettaFix, it's an antiseptic not a real antibiotic so it's not going to work much. You can use daily Methylene Blue baths or alternate between Meth Blue and Potassium Permanganate (found in Jungle's Clear Water from Walmart generally). I found PP worked great for the Saprolengia, you use double dose same as a Meth Blue bath, 30 minutes maximum in the bath done nightly. I prefer night time because when you put him back in the tank, keep the lights off or the tank dark, the darkness will help reduce his stress which will help in the healing process.

Frozen foods should be fine, just don't feed the whole cube of course. You'll want to place the cube on a plate or cutting board and use a knife (or a parent, since this is a family forum, I don't know how old you are so I just have to be precautious!) to cut off a sliver or into a few different chunks. Put the rest back in a baggie in the freezer for another day. The take that slice and defrost in some tank water in a cup or something and then I use plant tweezers to feed my fish individually. Most of my adults usually will eat around 4-6 shrimps, depends on the day though and if they were fed already lol.


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

Thank you for your help! 

I wanted to get him started on something tonight so when I got home I did a full water change tonight and put him in API Fungus Cure powder (which I picked based on this website: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/columnaris.html , since I wasn't sure what to get). I wanted to get Methylene Blue but the Petland near my job didn't carry it and the LFS near my house was closed when I got out. I will try to get some, or Potassium Permanganate tomorrow.
(I did get some PimaFix because they had it and it was suggested that might be good to use in conjunction, but I haven't used it.)

I also started adding a 1/2 teaspoon of dissolved epsom salts to see if it would help with the swim bladder, since he's still unable to keep himself upright, though he was able to twist enough when I gave him a small portion of freeze dried brine shrimp to eat it (I haven't tried the frozen yet). I don't want his swim bladder to get worse if he's constipated, but I feel bad not feeding him at all when he's sick with other stuff too...

I was able to get a picture of the growth, which looks like it's gotten slightly worse since yesterday:







- can you confirm it looks like Saprolengia? It's not visible in the picture, but there is a slight red line on his fins where the growth starts.



lilnaugrim said:


> You can stop using the BettaFix, it's an antiseptic not a real antibiotic so it's not going to work much. You can use daily Methylene Blue baths or alternate between Meth Blue and Potassium Permanganate (found in Jungle's Clear Water from Walmart generally). I found PP worked great for the Saprolengia, you use double dose same as a Meth Blue bath, 30 minutes maximum in the bath done nightly. I prefer night time because when you put him back in the tank, keep the lights off or the tank dark, the darkness will help reduce his stress which will help in the healing process.
> 
> Frozen foods should be fine, just don't feed the whole cube of course. You'll want to place the cube on a plate or cutting board and use a knife (or a parent, since this is a family forum, I don't know how old you are so I just have to be precautious!) to cut off a sliver or into a few different chunks. Put the rest back in a baggie in the freezer for another day. The take that slice and defrost in some tank water in a cup or something and then I use plant tweezers to feed my fish individually. Most of my adults usually will eat around 4-6 shrimps, depends on the day though and if they were fed already lol.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, that's the basic Saprolengia for sure.

ES won't help his swim bladder, ES is good for relieving constipation but if he's not bloated then most likely he's not constipated either. His lack of ability to keep himself upright is probably more due to the fact that he's tired right now, his immune system is trying to fight off this infection and it's draining his energy so he's resting as much as he can.

Honestly, don't use anything that ends in Fix; MelaFix, BettaFix (same thing as MelaFix) and PimaFix, they do nothing that PP won't do better and with much less stress to your fish. All four that I just mentioned are antiseptics but PP is generally less stressful and more effective for our Anabantoid (air-breathers) fish since the oil extract in the "Fix" medication could possibly coat their labyrinth organ and make it a little difficult for them to breathe. This is not a proven fact but something some have observed in their fish but I can't say for sure one way or another. I'd just suggest to not use them because I've never found them to be useful in anyway.


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

So I think my fish is getting a bit better! He still has a complete inability to stay upright and is lying horizontally on a plant sprig 24/7, but is eating fine as long as I drop food directly in front of him. (I also tried feeding him frozen food for the first time (Daphnia) but he completely ignored it. :-? ) 
But, the visible Saprolengia is mostly gone (though parts fell off with part of his fins, unfortunately). I've got him in the API Fungus Cure still with daily water changes, and have been giving him daily Meth Blue baths for two days. I was unable to find any Potassium Permanganate at the shops near me, but I ordered some online and it is due to arrive Monday, at which point I'll alternate that with the Meth Blue, as you suggested. 

I have a quick question though, that may be super obvious, sorry if it is. *Do I have to disinfect the net I've been using every time I clean the hospital tank/give him a bath, or only at the end when he's ready to return to his regular tank?* I've only been rinsing it out as it seems a lot of disinfecting techniques take a long time and I'm netting him every day. But if it's something I need to do, I totally will. (I also hear that Saprolengia is usually present in most tanks anyway, so I'm not sure if that affects what I have to do.) Thank you!!



lilnaugrim said:


> Yes, that's the basic Saprolengia for sure.
> 
> ES won't help his swim bladder, ES is good for relieving constipation but if he's not bloated then most likely he's not constipated either. His lack of ability to keep himself upright is probably more due to the fact that he's tired right now, his immune system is trying to fight off this infection and it's draining his energy so he's resting as much as he can.
> 
> Honestly, don't use anything that ends in Fix; MelaFix, BettaFix (same thing as MelaFix) and PimaFix, they do nothing that PP won't do better and with much less stress to your fish. All four that I just mentioned are antiseptics but PP is generally less stressful and more effective for our Anabantoid (air-breathers) fish since the oil extract in the "Fix" medication could possibly coat their labyrinth organ and make it a little difficult for them to breathe. This is not a proven fact but something some have observed in their fish but I can't say for sure one way or another. I'd just suggest to not use them because I've never found them to be useful in anyway.


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

Also, I was able to get a shot of his belly today without his dumbo fins blocking, and his belly looks a little bit too big, though I'm not sure. Can anyone confirm if this is normal? It's kind of hard to tell since his lower half is still twisted into the water in the pic: 










I've been feeding him 3 pellets in the morning and then several bites of dried brine shrimp in the evening. 

(Please ignore the floating chunks of food, this was right after I fed him/right before I cleaned the tank, and I thew in a lot because he can't swim for it and can only eat it's directly in front of his face)


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, yeah that's pretty bloated there. Cut down the food to feeding him every other day and only the three pellets, no more dried stuff. He could have a natural spinal deformity as well that as he ages, will get worse. Can't say for sure though.


----------



## MaraJade (Oct 22, 2014)

Apologies, since I responded to myself twice it looks like my initial question got lost on the other page- 

I hope this isn't super obvious, but do I have to disinfect the net I've been using every time I clean the hospital tank/give him a bath, or only at the end when he's ready to return to his regular tank? 

(I've only been rinsing it out as it seems a lot of disinfecting techniques take a long time and I'm netting him every day. But if it's something I need to do, I totally will. (I also hear that Saprolengia is usually present in most tanks anyway, so I'm not sure if that affects what I have to do.) )

Also, how do I know when to stop treating him? the visible Saprolengia is gone (though parts of it fell off with bits of his fins, unfortunately), but his ability to stay upright hasn't really improved. I don't know if that means he still has an infection going on/is tired or just has developed swim bladder issues. 

I've had in the API Fungus Cure for 5 days with daily water changes, I've given him daily Meth Blue baths for the past 3 days, and my bottle Potassium Permanganate came in the mail today so his bath today will be that instead... 

Thank you!!





lilnaugrim said:


> Okay, yeah that's pretty bloated there. Cut down the food to feeding him every other day and only the three pellets, no more dried stuff. He could have a natural spinal deformity as well that as he ages, will get worse. Can't say for sure though.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's okay, it happens.

I'd continue to do the baths for a week after all visible Saprolengia is gone and the fins start to at least grow back a little, you'll see the clear regrowth come in though it may take longer for him to actually grow his fins back.

And if he's your only fish, no you don't need to disinfect the net. It might be good to do every now and then but unless you are using that same net for multiple tanks, you do not need to disinfect. Running it under scalding hot tap water will disinfect quick and easy  technically it's supposed to be boiling water that sterilizes but wicked hot tap water should get rid of most stuff for a quick method.


----------

