# Flourish and Flourish Excel - safe for betta?



## stevelunny

Hi there

Is it okay to put the recommended dose of Flourish and Flourish Excel into my 5-gallon planted beta tank? Population is one betta fish and one zebra snail. Have a great filter. 

Thanks!
Steve


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## lilnaugrim

Of course, they're made for fish to be occupying the tank!
The only issue with Excel is that you can't use it if you have Valisneria plants. It will melt the plants.
Excel isn't a liquid co2 as it is sold as, but rather, an algalcide. So it's still beneficial but not overly necessary if you keep your light and fertilizers in check and in balance 
It's a balancing act really  But yes, they're all totally fish safe.


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## stevelunny

Thanks so much! I shall proceed.


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## Lekoguy

lilnaugrim said:


> Excel isn't a liquid co2 as it is sold as, but rather, an algalcide.


Sorry, but I feel that some additional information is needed about this statement.

Seachem Excel is not marketed as liquid CO2, but rather as an alternative to CO2 dosing. It provides a source of organic carbon which can be utilized by aquatic plants. Actually, Excel can be used in conjunction with injected, gaseous CO2.

Also, it is not an algaecide. Though there's a lot of anecdotal evidence to support the claim, that as a side effect, algae populations may be reduced. However, the manufacturer (Seachem) does not make this claim.


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## lilnaugrim

The main ingredients are:
polycycloglutaracetal and glutaraldehydeheres


I was incorrect in saying it's just an algaecide, as glutaraldehyde is actually a biocide, meaning it kills all. 


Glutaraldehydes are used in medical instances to sterilize equipment, used in anti-freeze, and in embalming fluid. Gluteral itself is an oily liquid used as a disinfectant and a biological tissue stabilizer. It's used in quite an array of items, algaecides, sugar mills, hospitals, lab sciences, foods, makeup, etc. Here's a nice quote.
"It is claimed that it provides a bioavailable source of carbon for higher plants that is not available to algae. Though not marketed as such due to federal regulations, the biocidal effect of glutaraldehyde kills most algae at concentrations of 0. 5 - 5. 0 ppm. These levels are not harmful to most aquatic fauna and flora. Adverse reactions have been observed by some aquarists at these concentrations in some aquatic mosses, liverworts, and vascular plants."
So, it is claimed to be a source of carbon but it hasn't been thoroughly proven as of yet. So you are correct in that it is a side effect for being an algaecide. However, I do not know what the article means by "higher plants", if it means higher light plants, plants that are higher up in the water column, etc.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/glutaraldehyde#section=Top


SeaChem uses a very diluted form of this as polycycloglutaracetal. SeaChem doesn't claim anything except that it's an "organic carbon for the planted aquarium". I also never said it couldn't be used in conjunction with a co2 reactor either.


I found another Glutaral product. But they say that in order for it to be converted to a sugar (how algaecides typically work), it has to have iron chelate: "Iron Chelate is added to act as a catalyst to enhance the ability of Glutaraldehyde (carbon source) to work"
https://www.thetechden.com.au/Gluta...late_Fertilizer_250ml_p/glutandiron-250ml.htm
SeaChem does not list the Chelate in their ingredients for their Excel but they do say on the bottle: "Promotes Ferrous state of Iron", so I assume then that they have an Iron Chelate in there somewhere. So thus, still proving the point that it is an biocide with an algaecide benefit due to the added Iron Chelate (potentially) which renders the liquid harmless to fauna but still too potent for some flora (vals and Anacharis). SeaChem does not list how much Glutaral is in their form but I'm sure if someone asked, they tell you.


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## Lekoguy

Thank you for clarifying the point I was making. 

When advising forum members, in reference to commercial products, I believe it is important to be accurate in one's statements. That is why I submitted my post.


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## lilnaugrim

With all due respect, we were both correct to some degree.


While it's not a straight algaecide, it does have the effects and is used as an algaecide as I proposed. But there is still no clear evidence that it is an effective carbon source as SeaChem claims it to be. I only found one source saying it may be a carbon source, all the rest state that it is an algaecide if there is presence of an iron chelate, which we do not know for sure. If there is no iron chelate then it is simply a biocide. That's a far fetch from being a carbon source.


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## Lekoguy

lilnaugrim said:


> Excel isn't a liquid co2 as it is sold as, but rather, an algalcide.


1) Excel is NOT sold as liquid CO2. In fact, liquid CO2 doesn't exist at normal atmospheric pressures.

2) Seachem does not market Excel as an algaecide.

These are the only statements to which I took exception.

Flourish Excel is marketed as a plant fertilizer.


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## lilnaugrim

Lekoguy said:


> 1) Excel is NOT sold as liquid CO2. In fact, liquid CO2 doesn't exist at normal atmospheric pressures.
> 
> 2) Seachem does not market Excel as an algaecide.
> 
> These are the only statements to which I took exception.
> 
> Flourish Excel is marketed as a plant fertilizer.


 

_I_ did not say that SeaChem sells it as an algaecide. My original statement was meant as thus:


SeaChem's Excel is marketed as a carbon source but it is not an accurate advertisement as it is an algaecide. 


They promote it as if it's some fertilizer when it's something that kills algae, those are two different stones. Many items are marketed with the same ploy. I'm not saying that Excel is bad because it does kill algae, it's just not something that SeaChem talks about. If someone read the ingredients as we've done here and researched it, they'd know that it's a watered down algaecide more than it is a carbon supplement (and very little scientific data is out there to represent this statement).


And I am aware that Liquid CO2 does not exist but it is how it is talked about, not only here but in the world as well. But hey, algaecide = carbon source so I guess it's the same thing. :dunno:


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## Lekoguy

We seem to have a very different comprehension of the English language.

What a person actually states, as opposed to what they "meant," are two different things.


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## lilnaugrim

Off topic. If you want to discuss my grammatical skills and flaws, then you can PM me.


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