# Cycling is a pain the butt!



## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

ive been cycling for more than 2 months now, and i feel like im doing everything wrong -.- ammonia always stays at .25ppm.:evil:

i need for the cycling to be done already i put my bettas back in the cups they came in


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

What are you using as your source of ammonia? Also check the pH of your aquarium water. Sometimes it can crash during the cycling process, and once it gets below 6.5, the process can slow considerably. 

Lastly, are you getting any readings for nitrite and nitrates?


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

i'm not using anything x( by source of ammonia you mean like using hardy fish or ammonia from the store?
ph always stays at 8

i don't have tests kits for nitrite and nitrate, i thought since ammonia is too high i wouldn't get readings for neither of those 

sorry this is my first time cycling x/


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

You NEED to get the rest of the kit. You may have ammonia in your tap water which is giving you false readings.

My tanks are cycled and I always still have a little bit of ammonia from my tap water, it usually goes away though.

What are you using to treat your water? What test kit are you using?


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## Banicks (Aug 20, 2011)

Hi Crystal,

LBF and Baha have both put forward my thoughts already.

I can only recommend patience ontop of a full testing kit - sometimes cycling takes a long time at different stages or other things can be at play.

How stocked is your tank out of curiosity? Are you using a water filter with media or biofilter?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

By source of ammonia, I mean are you adding pure ammonia, using a raw shrimp/fish food, or doing a fish-in with a betta or other fish? 

Usually when people do a fishless cycle they want their tank to be able to process 2-4ppm in 24 hours. That way when they add their fish, there be any spikes in ammonia or nitrite because there is more than enough bacteria to cope with the bioload. 

If you don't have any source of ammonia being added to your tank, it's not going to cycle. Either your tapwater has ammonia in it, or you have had or have something in there that's causing the reading. 

Also, do you have a heater in your tank? The bacteria we want grows best at high temperatures. I'm assuming since it's a betta tank you would have one, but if the water is cold, it's going to take longer to cycle.

Finally, what test kit are you using? Liquid or strips? There is a big discrepancy in the accuracy between them. It's always recommended that you choose liquid reagent test kits as they tend to be much more accurate once calibrated.


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm using API test kit I only have PH and Ammonia tests as of now
I have had my filter running since I got the tank and I do have a heater but I turned it off since I live in Arizona and the water isnt that cold right now it's at 75 degrees.
I have no fish in it I wanted to do it fishless
I could do fish in but I have two bettas and it's a divided tank
I don't know how to do fish in cycling I tried and my bettas got fin bite
my tap water doesn't have ammonia I test it
I use top fin water conditioner to treat the water
I guess it's not cycling because I don't have an ammonia source?
I HAD my bettas in there but i took them out 
I do 25% water changes weekly


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

You need a source of ammonia, what are the bacteria supposed to eat? XD

Re-read the fishless cycling methods. I don't remember what they are specifically because I always cycle fish-in.

I believe people either use pure ammonia or use a decaying shrimp.

Here's the link  http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=47838


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah, your tank isn't going to cycle unless there's an ammonia source unfortunately. I don't know where the ammonia is coming from if it isn't your tapwater. There could be old food or something else present in the tank that is causing it. 

If you've been waiting two months already, I'd just do a fish-in cycle personally, and monitor the ammonia levels daily. However, you will need to purchase a nitrite test as if this spikes it can kill your fish very quickly. 

For a fish-in cycle, anytime ammonia or nitrite gets over 0ppm, do a 25-50% water change to ensure your bettas aren't adversely affected (particularly at a pH of 8 as even trace amounts can be harmful). 

Also, you can't starve your bacteria even if the test reads 0 so don't be afraid to do large water changes while cycling. Those tests are not sensitive enough to pick up the trace amounts of ammonia that will feed your biological filter. That is why a cycled tank still contains enough ammonia to prevent it from crashing, but not enough to harm your fish. 

A fish-in cycle does take longer than a fishless, but if done properly, it shouldn't pose a risk to your bettas.


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

so should I just restart? or keep the water I have right now and just do a water change before adding my fish in?


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## HatsuneMiku (Jul 29, 2011)

what size tank are you trying to cycle?

also since u have ur bettas in another tank .. u could put a filter pad in there with them to soak up some ammonia that they are producing (and don't throw away their poo .. just put it in ur cycled tank for ammonia) .. then put it in the tank that's cycling


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

a 10 gallon tank, and they're currently in the cups they first came in not in another tank, I'm thinking of doing the "fish food" method


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Your bettas have been in the cups for 2 months? 

I personally would just cycle them in, do extra water changes and continually check the levels of ammonia


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I agree with Bahamut. 

As long as you're diligent in checking your parameters and performing necessary water changes, the whole process of cycling shouldn't affect your bettas. 

I'm sure they'd be glad to have all the extra space to swim around in.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Guys please don't be too judgemental but i don't cycle. And i saw a lot of people recommendation on this forum that if you have up to 5 or even 10 gall you can go without it. I have 8 bettas and each of them in 2.5 gall. I don't have filters since i had accident betta stuck in it. I also do 100% water changes for5 of them and for 5 of them and for 3 of them i do 1-50% and 1-100% water changes a week. And all of them healthy for long time. I didn't have any problem. My oldest betta about 3.5 years old. So crystal you can put them at least in the bigger tanks and do what i do they will be perfectly fine. I never check the water because i never have any problems. I also use aged water,but i don't think it will make difference.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Essentially 80% of my betta tanks are uncycled. This is for various reasons such as extremely low pH (for my wilds), tank size and a lack of power sockets for filters and pumps to plug into. 

While I think fish do better in a cycled environment due to its stable water chemistry, I have no issue with housing bettas in uncycled tanks. As long as _appropriate_ measures are taken to ensure there is never any trace of ammonia or nitrite present. 

Also, I've had a betta swimming around while the ammonia was reading at 8ppm. He was acting perfectly normal and the only reason I checked was because I had noticed his caudal was showing some slight damage.

I do think everyone should own at least some form of water testing equipment. Bettas are extremely hardy fish, as evidenced by the conditions they are often kept in, and as I cannot gauge the quality of my water with my eyes alone, I prefer to have something there to give me that ability.


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## HatsuneMiku (Jul 29, 2011)

@anhel
your situation is very different .. taking care of 8 2.5 unfiltered tanks it is very different environment and care from a 10g filtered tank.. you won't ever have to cycle since it's impossible for a 2.5 to hold a complete cycle even if it is filtered

a 10g filtered tank will cycle with fish (eventually) .. regardless if you want it to or not (with the exception of replacing filter media monthly and 100% water changes every week).. the best way is to have a controlled environment so that the cycle will run smoothly and to monitor ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels .. so that once the cycle is complete .. you won't have to do 100% changes ever again (and 100% changes on a 10g is a pain .. you can't just pick it up and dump out the water like you can with 2.5g)

@regarding -- 'just putting the fish in' comments
in-fish cycling can be stressful for some sensitive bettas .. not all bettas will take it well .. if crystal isn't comfortable doing in-fish cycling .. she doesn't have to .. there are other options .. but i do agree with you guys in the fact that they gotta be put in something bigger then the small cups (temporary tupper ware containers .. cut the tops off a gallon of water .. even giant salad bowls would be better then the cups .. =D but along those lines)

@crystal
fish food method is very messy to clean up after and is known to take longer for ammonia to form .. to boost this .. i still suggest using a turkey baster and removing poo from ur bettas temporary homes .. and putting it in the tank .. @[email protected] i know sounds gross .. but it'll help kick start ammonia production

good luck !! and keep us posted on ur progress =D


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I pretty much agree with LBF. I don't bother cycling anything under 5 gallons because it's too much of a pain, so there is definitely nothing wrong with doing so.

I also agree on the fact that your betta won't die the second one molecule of ammonia shows up. Yes, if it is something like 8ppm for a WEEK then there may be some eventual damage, but you shouldn't freak out over the fact that it is 1ppm. Ammonia is fairly common in nature in aquatic environments, so it would be a bit silly if fish didn't evolve to tolerate some of it.

They are hardy, but don't abuse it. Just because people can handle cold weather doesn't mean you shouldn't wear a jacket in the winter, lol.

As for the final decision, it is definitely up to Crystal to decide, we are just offering alternatives and advice. I have personally NEVER EVER had problems with fish-in cycling, even when I forgot about a water change.

I wish you the best of luck Crystal


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I have betta in 1 gall at my work that live in 1 gall for pretty long time I do 100% water changes every 3-4 days. But i always make sure there is no food sink to the bottom of the tank. 
Good luck Crystal


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

I wanna do fish in cycle but I'm just really scared i'll do it all wrong again like I did the first time, my bettas got fin rot / fin bite /: so then I did AQ salt water treatments and now their fins are back  they were really stressed in the 10g tank, they would just stay at the bottom or top and just be there looking dead. if i do it again I wanna do it right this time. so let's say I go out and buy the rest of the test kits I need (nirite & nitrate). where do I go from there? test the water then change it before putting them back in? & also after I put them back what are the right steps to do fish in cycle?


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## Micho (Aug 22, 2011)

The test kits that are needed are: Ammonia, NitrIte, and NitrAte. 

Doing a fish-in cycle is a pain in the butt, your fish will be your source of ammonia, test your water everyday for ammonia, and once in a few days for nitrIte. If either ammonia or nitrIte are above 0.25ppm do a water change. 

You'll know when you're cycled, when you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrIte, and a number of nitrAte in between 10 ~ 40ppm. 20ppm being the best. 

Test your water first, if it's above 0.25ppm for ammonia and nitrIte do a water change, acclimate your Bettas and put them into the tank, and then just watch ammonia/nitrite levels for the next few days. It took about two weeks for my tank to cycle. I was doing a fish-in silent cycle, so best of luck to you!


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

thank you so much!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

There is another post about cycling . There is nothing wrong if you don't want to cycle. I have the same bettas for long time and i never cycled. I don't know how to do it. If you going to have 2 gall then you do 1-50% and 1-100% a week . I do 100% . There is a post on this forum about people disscusing this matter if you want you can read it. If you will go to my profile then go to the treat ''Can a tank without a filter cycle?''


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## Micho (Aug 22, 2011)

I would cycle anything above 5 gallons, anything under 5 gallons is quite impossible to cycle.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with Micho. Anything over 5 gallons uncycled would be a pain to keep clean considering the fact that you'd have to do 1005 water changes.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

I wouldn't do the fish-in cycle if you have a hectic job. There are some days when I get in to work at 7:30AM but don't leave until 6PM. So, I can't keep up with the water changes needed during the ammonia spike stage. I wrapped up a raw shrimp in a stocking and let it rot for a few weeks. It could go on auto pilot since my fish where in 1 gallon tanks at the time. If you have the free time as a student or someone who works at home then fish-in cycling can be done without any harm to your fish. But I would suggest fishless cycling for anyone with a hectic job that could prevent them from keeping up with water changes.

I personally switched from a uncycled 1 gallon to a cycled 5 gallon because the 100% water changes really stressed out my fish. Now I never have to take them out of the tank to clean it so they are way more relaxed and their colors are bolder. Propably due to the end of the weekly stress fests they had to experience. Anhel123 is right about cycling being optional if you can keep up with the water changes. I just hated stressing out my fish 4 times a month so I did it to not only decrease the amount of water changes, but to help my fish be more relaxed. If a tank isn't cycled for the sake of the fish inside of it, then it's being cycled for the wrong reason, imo. If my fish didn't hate being displaced during 100% water changes so much, they would probably still be in uncycled 1 gallons. XD


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

Gonna type this in here once and we're not going to argue about it.

Any volume of water allowed the time to colonize will start to cycle if ammonia oxygen and warmth are present. You can take a beaker of purified water and set it on a warming plate beside a litter box and simply circulate the water in it and it will absorb ammonia from the cat litter and begin to cycle if you leave it alone long enough.

Since the bacteria form on surfaces, if you don't sterilize all the surfaces, the bacteria will grow in number and colonize the container. Any amount of ammonia will start the process.

I commonly use Lee's/Tom's 5oz sponges to run as biological filters in even half gallon containers. They create the protective environment for the bacteria and you can even move them out of the bowl/vase/mini-bow into the container you move your fish to and STILL sterilize the main aquarium and all the little pieces in it. Then when you put your betta back in the reassembled tank you squish the sponge filter out several times using the changed water and then rinse with some prepared treated water and stick it back in the little aquarium. The bacteria survive just fine through all this and the sponge supports the cycle A-OK. There is no minimum water size to support a cycle.

The real connection comes with the Walstad method of planted tanks.

In Walstad you are making a natural environment and so you add fish to keep the plants alive. The plants are the bio-filtration for the tank. So in a tank with sufficient ratio of plants to fish a mechanical biological filtration plan isn't necessary to keep the fish alive unless your plants all die. 

Water, Ammonia and Oxygen will produce a cycle unless it is sterilized. So stop spouting the "tank is too small" B.S., its wrong.

The only tank too small to cycle is one so small that there's no room for a fish.

Not addressing the nitrogen cycle is like claiming you don't have to wipe a baby's bottom because they get a bath every day. Your fish is soaking in it and its not natural, the tiny puddle is a healthier place - it's cycled.


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

Nitrosomona and Nitrospira thriving conditions:
pH7.3 to pH8.2
Hardness between 80 and 140ppm 
Alkalinity (linked to pH) 
Temperature 79°F to 84°F
Aeration by filtration, surface agitation, air-stone or airflow.
Dark environment with a surface ready for colonization (inside filter).
ppm Ammonia not over 0.8
ppm Nitrite not over 0.7
ppm Nitrate not over 70
No medications, no household chemicals, no light of higher frequencies. (UV etc)

If your Nitrite is too high, the bacteria that eat Ammonia cannot poop.
If your Nitrate is too high, the bacteria that eat Nitrite cannot poop.
If your Hardness is too high, aeration suffers, excess iron (chipping stains in sink) is bad.
If your temperature is too low, life cycle time may not exceed growth rate.
If your Hardness is too low, the bacteria cannot form bodies nor bind to surface.

So the bacteria eat alkalinity, hardness, oxygen and energetic nitrogen compounds. 
They have to have a medium to grow on (calcate deposits or equivalent bind point, thus why ceramic rings are used in canisters, aquaclear and why marineland (regent/aqua-tech) use expanded fiber media). 
They have to be protected from light due to their chemical structure, it will generate energy from light which can retard growth or even simply cook the bacteria (UV has more energy per photon, but any bright bright light with short frequencies will sterilize the nitrospira and nitrosomona, its the amount of energy applied, not the frequency).


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## crystalmylovee (Aug 2, 2011)

so i finally go test strips for ph, nitrite, nitrate, Carbonatte and General Hardness

My results-
ammonia: 0 ppm - 0.25 ppm
nitrate: 0 ppm
nitrite: 0 ppm
ph: 7.5 ppm
Carbonate Hardness: 80 ppm
General Hardness: 180 ppm

can i put them in?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Thunderloon said:


> They have to be protected from light due to their chemical structure, it will generate energy from light which can retard growth or even simply cook the bacteria (UV has more energy per photon, but any bright bright light with short frequencies will sterilize the nitrospira and nitrosomona, its the amount of energy applied, not the frequency).


From this might I infer that the lights I use to encourage my plants: 3W/gal at 6500K (which is high in short-frequency blue) can actually discourage my cycle? 

Is this the reason (I remember reading) that cycled tanks and naturally planted tanks are contraindicated?


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## Fermin (Apr 18, 2010)

Cycling a tank is a straight-forward chemical and biological process that's up and running in 3-4 weeks. It's not difficult to do.

*Fishless cycle (i.e. no fish in the water-filled set-up aquarium):*
-Buy the API Master Test Kit (measures NH3, NO2, NO3, pH).
-Buy pure ammonia (super-cheap at any hardware store)
-Add several drops of pure NH3 (ammonia) to the tank until the NH3 reading in your API Master Test Kit is ~5ppm.
-Add that same amount of drops daily until you get a nitrite (NO2) spike on your test kit. 
-Continue until NH3 drops daily and until NO2 is 0ppm causing nitrate (NO3) to peak on your test kit. 
-When this happens, performs a ~50% water change. 
-Done. Takes ~3-4 weeks.

Having a cycled tank is so much easier to take care of, it's less-stressful on your fish, and it's more eco-friendly since you're not wasting tons of water on water changes.

I think the problem is that people buy their fish FIRST and then want to try cycling down the road, at which point they try to cycle fish-in instead of fishless, which is tough on the fish and a more-difficult process in my opinion.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


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## Fermin (Apr 18, 2010)

Hallyx said:


> From this might I infer that the lights I use to encourage my plants: 3W/gal at 6500K (which is high in short-frequency blue) can actually discourage my cycle?
> 
> Is this the reason (I remember reading) that cycled tanks and naturally planted tanks are contraindicated?


A heavily-planted tank actually makes the cycling process really easy. See, when you buy aquarium plants they are usually from established stock tanks and therefore already coated in the cycling bacteria. Many heavily-planted tank people just load their new tank with fast-growing plants, wait ~1-4 weeks or so to make sure the plants survive, and then go. Note that the tank has to be planted heavily from day 1 and with fast-growers.

Fish-only tanks are a different story.

Hope this helps!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Fluorescent, halide and LED lights won't hurt your cycle otherwise no one who uses them would have a cycled tank. 

I silently cycled my sorority tank by heavily planting with fast-growing stems. There are 5 females living in about 5-6 gallons on water and I have never once had an ammonia reading. I did do partial daily water changes for the first week until my plants had established and started to grow. Then I just petered off to once a week.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Fermin said:


> Fish-only tanks are a different story.
> 
> Hope this helps!


 Thank you, Fermin and LBF, that helps some.

I've done what I consider enough research reluctantly to decide against a natural planted tank. They're way too expensive in terms of dollars, knowledge, energy and attention. As much as I like the appearance and other advantages, it seems much simpler to go with cycled. But, because of the constant and annoying filter noise, I remain unfiltered at this time.

While thinking I might go NPT, I bought the lights and the timers. Now they just keep my anacharis and anubias happy. I'm not sure what fish-only means, but I'd be willing to toss my anacharis. Gotta keep that lovely anubias, though.

I've discovered the convenience and cleanliness of a bare-bottomed tank, though I don't care for the look. And I'd like to reduce the light exposure for my fish.

Besides the noise (I'm a serious music listener) I'm also concerned about power outages. We typically endure a few three to six hour blackouts every winter; sometimes more and longer.

Perhaps you can see my dilemma, and why it's so hard for me to make a choice.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

I think fish only means a tank with only fake plants. I gave my fish hiding places with a ceramic Urn and a few silk plants. So, I think that makes my tank fish only because the only thing alive in my tank is the bacteria in my filter, the algae that keeps coming back with a vengence, and my fishies. So, cycling my tank took longer than 4 weeks because I didn't have pure ammonia or plants from a stock cycled tank. I also never had a cycled tank before so I couldn't borrow bacteria from somewhere else. Cycling is a bit different when you start from scratch without any plants or seeding bacteria, but doable with a bit more patience. 

If I am mistaken, Fermin can correct me later. XD


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