# Fix for nitrate poisoning?



## Demeterra (Sep 11, 2014)

Hi, 

I did try to get an answer to this through reading stickies and other forum posts and doing forum word searches, but didn't find what I'm looking for.

I'm starting with *1)* what started this, *2) *the change in tank conditions, and then *3) *list the requested specs as they are right now:

*1)* My 2+ year old betta was hanging out face down at the bottom of the tank, so I looked it up in the forums... and I seem to have done something really, really wrong. 

I put him and the apple snail in a QT and did a nearly complete water change with a gravel vac and was really thorough about the vac. I also took out and washed the fake plants and larger stones with hot running water. I treated all the new water, including bacteria, and let it get back up to temp. 

Betta seemed fine in the QT (also new treated water), though not excited about eating but still eating a little.

*2)* I tested the main tank for everything, and the only thing off was nitrates. But they were off the chart. I had read here that the way to deal with nitrates was to cycle the tank, which takes weeks and is why I rarely do a full water change, just 1/2 changes during the routine gravel vac.

Without having a chemical remedy to the nitrate problem, I did the only thing I could think of that might help move the cycling on a little faster: added a whole lot more bacteria (Microbe-Lift's Special Blend). Not surprisingly, this didn't do much overnight, but I was hoping. 

Meanwhile, my betta and (large!) apple snail had gotten a little too cozy for my comfort in the 1-gallon QT overnight, and I was worried that the betta would hurt the squishy parts of the snail in such close quarters. Betta refused food at this point, and I figured it was stressed from the small space.

So...my understanding of what happens when going from an uncycled tank to cycled is this: ammonia goes up, then ammonia goes down and nitrites go up, then nitrites go down and nitrates go up. Lastly, nitrates go down and you're good.

So...fearing the stress on betta, the potential harm that could come to the snail, and understanding that bettas routinely do OK being in a tank that is going through the cycling process, I put them back in the tank.

Betta is NOT happy. Betta is alive, but doing Really Bad. I'm afraid I've poisoned him by putting him back in the tank with high nitrates. When I got home from work I thought he was dead, but is moving around a little hanging out at the waterline, he's not eating but oddly seems to be making bubbles occasionally. Should I have been adding extra Prime instead of Microbe-Lift? Should I add extra Prime right now?

*3)* Here are the specs requested as they are right now:

*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank? 3 gal
Does it have a filter? yes, Marina S10 filter system with Bio-Clear cartridges
Does it have a heater? yes
What temperature is your tank? 76 degrees F
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no, not unless you count the water dripping from the filter back into the tank
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? yes, a large and active apple snail

*Food:*
What food brand do you use? Hikari
Do you feed flakes or pellets? pellets
Freeze-dried? I don't think so
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? 5-7 days/week, using a small scoop ~ 15-18 pellets (they are Really Small pellets)

*Maintenance:*
*Before* your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? normally about every 2 weeks, but I was a week late because I just had surgery.
What percentage of water did you change? appx 1/2 to 2/3 each time
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? I remove water while using the vac on the gravel.
What additives do you use? Prime, Seachem Neutral Regulator, Microbe-Lift Special Blend.

*Water Parameters:*
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you.

Ammonia: 4 ppm
Nitrite: 2.0 ppm
Nitrate: 80 ppm
pH: 6.8 - 7.0 (the color is in-between)
Hardness (GH): I don't know (what's the test?)
Alkalinity (KH): I don't know (what's the test?)

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms? a few days ago
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? he seems a little skinny
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? yes, first with facing down at the bottom of the tank, and now hanging around at the top but lethargic and not eating
Is your Betta still eating? no
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? see *2)* above
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? he had some fin rot when I had him for only a few months (first time owner), and only a little of the lost part has grown back in the last two years.
How long have you owned your Betta? Was he or she a rescue? Since November 2013, from a fish store.

Thank you in advance for any response.


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Short answer: how do you manage nitrate levels? Do a water change. That's all. For a 3-gal you need a 50% twice weekly or 25% every two-three days. Do not do a 100% unless you have a medical reason for it. 

Long answer: my oh my, you could have asked questions if you're unsure about the cycling process. You didn't need to move your fish to a QT while doing a fishless cycling on the main tank. Fishless takes at least a month, often more than that. Bottled bacteria does not and will not do anything about your nitrate levels. Nitrates is the final product of the nitrogen cycle. Thus, they cannot be converted into anything else. Oh and you might want to throw things across the room hearing this, but _if your tank has already sustained life for 2 years, then it is already fully cycled. _Through regular water changes you have unconsciously performed fish-in cycling. The reason why your nitrates reading is off the charts is because you only do water changes every 2 weeks. That is way way too little. On top of that you feed too much. I know they're micro pellets, but they still can't have more than 6-8 per day! Your temperature is also too low. Bettas do best in 78-82F water. 

When you placed your Betta in a QT tank *together* with an Apple Snail (they poop like there's no tomorrow!) he might have suffered from ammonia poisoning. Actually, scratch that. Seeing his current tank's parameters he IS most definitely suffering from ammonia poisoning. Even 0.25 ammonia in a tank with alkaline water (pH above 7) is dangerous. 4 ppm is* lethal. *Remove your Betta from that tank ASAP. And please separate him from the snail!


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## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Hi there. You left a lot of really great info and others will surely jump in with advice. Since your situation is immediate my advice is to get to your local Pet Store and get Freshwater One and or Betta Water and replace all of your water with it and do not add anything, chemicals or other until someone else here with experience on treating your fish can help you. Right now your fish needs a stable environment with oxygen and you don't have that, so that's my advice get the water stable quick. Also see my tank setup perhaps will work out better for your Betta in the long run. Note you do not have to get it cycled if you get this water it is safe immediately with the right stable oxygen and PH, and your setup is small it will work! Note I advise having a big jug of it on hand anyway just for emergency hospital situations like this one. We're talking about saving the life of your fish at this time. Also get Kordon Fish Protector, it is herbal it has echinacea, boosts immune system function, repairs cell tissue and reduces stress. Sending positive thoughts your way! Keep the faith!


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## Demeterra (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you Seren27 and LittleStar, very much. I'll write back with an update when I have more than a minute.


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

This is just my opinion.



> Seachem Neutral Regulator,


Why are you using this? Please do not mess with PH adjusting stuff, Lowering PH in a tank is a lot more complicated than adding a capful of product xxx to yyy gallons of water.

Stuff like this causes your PH to fluctuate and that is dangerous to fish, Stable PH is more important.



> Microbe-Lift Special Blend.


Again this stuff is useless, Regular water changes and the occasional vacuum of the substrate will do the same thing.

Your fish needs lots of warn clean treated with Prime only water.


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## TripleP (Aug 7, 2015)

Okay, As others have mentioned something has to be done asap about the water parameters. Those levels are very dangerous. Ideally what you want is Ammonia and Nitrite to be 0, Nitrate to be under 10. The levels you have now will kill both your fish and your snail. 

As mentioned above your understanding of the cycling process is a bit off. A tank is considered cycled when ammonia and nitrite read 0 and nitrates are slowly climbing. Beneficial bacteria convert ammonia into nitrite and then nitrite into nitrate. There is no bacteria that will remove nitrate, you have to do that manually by doing a water change. Which in a 3 gallon tank with a betta only needs to be done 2 times a week, add in the bioload from the big apple snail and honestly your tank may need even more frequent water changes than that. So the infrequent water changes and missed water changes have caused these levels to build up to what you see now.

I will admit though, your water parameters confuse me a bit. First off, are those numbers from the water before you removed the betta and snail and did a complete water change or after? If that is the test result after you did the water change and put the betta back in, how much time elapsed before you tested the water and got these results? The reason I am asking is if you did a nearly full water change, put in new treated water, then added your fish and snail back to the water and tested it soon after then it could be your tap water that is the problem. Have you ever tested your water straight from the tap? If not I recommend doing that just to be sure it isn't part of the problem. I have to carry water from my house to do water changes on my betta tank at work formthis very reason as the water there has 2.0 ammonia and 20 nitrate straight from the tap.

If your tap water test has high levels as well than I agree with the poster above who recommended you get some treated water from the fish store and put them in it until you can figure out what is going on and what to do. If your local pet store isn't open than you can use bottled water if you need to. I wouldn't normally recommend bottle water, but honesty they are better off in that then they are the current water at those levels. Either way be sure to slowly acclimate them to the new water to avoid shock. Now, If your tap water tests okay then I would recommend doing 50% water changes every hour or so until you get those levels down, being sure to dose with prime each time and remember if needed you can even dose prime 5x more than normal in emergency situations of high ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. Once you get the levels back where they need to be then start testing your tank everyday until you can tell how fast the levels are rising and plan your water changes accordingly to prevent this from happening again.

Hope this helps some and please let us know how things are going. Good Luck!


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## Demeterra (Sep 11, 2014)

Hi all, 

Thank you so much for all the information and advice. I'm happy to report that my betta is still alive 

...

Feeding:
He's eating again! Max 6-8 pellets, got it. 

Tank water: 
I was not able to get the special water recommended; I called four stores. I've done multiple 50% water changes with bottled water, treated only with Prime, and the higher dose as suggested. Going forward, will do 50% changes 2-3x/week, and testing every day to track its pattern and see if it needs more changes.

Question 1: Is the Microbe-Lift useless in general, or just depending on substrate? My water changes have in the past been in tandem with using the gravel vac. I try to get as much gravel as possible until the water is at 50%. Should I only vac the substrate occasionally (and therefore not need bacteria treatment)?

Question 2: I tested my tap water (britta filtered), and indeed it has ammonia at 0.5 - 1.0 ppm. Eeks! All else ok_,_ so I don't know why it was like that either. Going forward, do you think only using Prime is good enough when the starting water has ammonia? Should I always use bottled water from now on?


Tank temperature:
The new heater I bought didn't work, so I've been keeping the room really warm to help the tank (continuing to use the insufficient old heater). A(nother) new heater will arrive today; it is not adjustable but it will fit, and I'm considering it a temporary step up from the existing heater.

Going forward, I'm still on the lookout for a heater with a thermostat so I can adjust it if necessary, but so far they’ve all been too big (too tall) for my tank. I'd love a small thermostat heater recommendation if anyone happens to have one.

...

This is my first and only aquarium; I'm grateful to have gotten the correct info to fix what I messed up in time for my fish.

Thank you very much!


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

> Question 1: Is the Microbe-Lift useless in general, or just depending on substrate?


Yes in my opinion its a waste of money.
Because of claims like this.


> Special Blend will cycle your tank instantly.


So it actually contains all the right live bacteria in the right numbers that will go to work instantly and remove all the ammonia fast?

or is it just locking it up or converting it to ammonium. But that's not cycling is it.

And if you have acidic water, with a pH below 7, ammonia will change into ammonium on its own.



> Special Blend is a complete eco-system in a bottle.


More live organisms?

But the real kicker is this.


> Dramatically reduces need for water changes
> Reduces the frequency of cleaning
> Good for salt and freshwater fish
> Chemical free!
> ...


I can actually pick apart each point if you like.

But basically it boils down to this.
There is absolutely no product that can match fresh clean water, and in my opinion any product that tells you that you don't need to change water as often is rubbish, Kinda like when Pet**** employees tell you that a betta can live in a 1/4 gallon unheated unfiltered betta flora death containers.

http://www.theaquariumshop.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=5605


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