# Financial stuff about wanting to breed Show Bettas / breed quality bettas



## DiiQue

Okay, so very interested in real life answers to this...

How much should one expect to put out to start a good breeding program?
What equipment should one have?
Where do you guys get your first fish (if from other breeders - how? Or AB)?
Any other "money pit falls" I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance!


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## Myates

I didn't go the "cheap" route when I started up breeding.. I bought everything needed (purchased mostly online as it's about a 2hr drive to the closest Petco/smart). I had set up for a 2 spawn at a time, and a plant tank.. which included 2 10s (1 for plants one for spawning), and 2 30gs for grow outs (if you want detail items, let me know and I can PM you my list (along with where I got the items for cheapest).. it's quite a bit) - start up costed me about a thousand dollars, not including the fish, and I have grown since then - within a couple months I had spent about $1500 total.

There are short cuts such as using rubbermaid bins to breed them in, etc.. I chose to go for actual tanks so I could watch the babies grow, etc with a bit of ease.. also makes it easier to cull the deformed ones, and siphon out the waste, etc.

I got one fish from AB, the rest from breeders from multiple betta groups on FB - a lot of breeders will sell cheaply there, and some give away for free (just shipping). That had saved me the biggest money - I purchased one female fish for a total of $55 off AB, and for that price once I ended up with 3 males and some worm cultures, and now for $50 I am expected to be getting 5 breeding females this coming week. Also got two gorgeous breeding males just for the price of shipping ($35)... all the good deals from breeders I had met from the groups. One being Chard56 on these forums 
So definitely would look into some betta groups on FB to get some great bettas.. if you want I can point you to some awesome breeders that will help you, along with the groups.. will PM you the info if you wish.


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## Basement Bettas

Most of your money needs to go into quality stock. I have no issues paying $75-$80 for a quality male from a breeder I have had good luck breeding their fish. I know other top breeders here have paid $100. That is steep.. but when you have and eye and you know good stuff does not grow on trees.. you get what you need to. And different colors present different challenges. Expect to pay more for a good black then many other colors. The breeders know what is a quality fish.. and price accordingly.

I have used soda bottles for males and used rubber tubs to spawn.. still do actually. As the fish have earned money I have sank it back into the hobby. I keep quickbooks and to be honest.. I have yet to make any money doing this. ALWAYS you will needs something. More stock, a UV, another pump, light bulbs.. the list is never ending. 

And to get decent money FOR your fish you really need to show and establish yourself as a breeder that has quality fish. Only way that can be proven is with ribbons. Racking up some BoS and RBoS titles help as does over all placing at the end of the season. There is a financial dedication to showing. It is not expensive per se.. but show 30-50 fish every other weekend.. pay shipping or hotel rooms for those close by and it does add up. This is the route for people chasing year end awards. Sending a few fish over a season is not real bad and does get your name out as a breeder that has quality fish.. even if all you do is one color. 

So start out slow and just build yourself up over time. And as you grow in the hobby you will find your time and commitment level. Once you know that you just keep tweaking the system. I'm now looking into draining water out of my tanks and flipping a switch to have them refilled rather than sit there holding a hose. A time saver for me. 

Watch out for disease and get into the habit of practicing good biosecurity right at the beginning. Several fish rooms have been completely devastated recently and many are starting over because they were lax and an ugly disease got in. 

If you want to be a good, serious breeder pick "A" color.. maybe two. And get your feet wet. It is all rosy untill you have a few large spawns and you are spending 3-4 hours EVERY night doing water changes. And then you can't keep them all and you face the challenge of culling. Most people burn our right here. So start small and with a showable color. You think red or blue is boring.. try breeding a perfect one. Dragons, MGs and some of the other "pretty" fish are not showable so now you have 300 young fish for what? To sell on AB??

Taking photos, good ones [and must admit I HATE taking pics so mine often can be better] creating ads, cutting styrofoam to line boxes, invoicing and dealing with "all kinds" make this part very labor intensive. So you make $20 or $30 for a fish. What did it cost you in water, food and time to get there and how much time is it taking you to get him sold. I make better money elsewhere.. lol.

And get in with a good group that will give you sound advice and help. This is a great place to hang out.. but not the only place. If you are wanting to breed showable fish and avoid the learners curve it might be good to join some FB pages of top breeders or hang our in some other forums that discuss genetics more thoroughly or are breeding show fish and discussing the standards in addition to hanging out here. Every place has a little different area of interest.. so join a few and get to know people doing what you want to do. Then pick their brains. I have yet to meet any that will not offer their time and experience to newbies. Most of us are passionate about breeding good fish. 

And above all else.. have fun!


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## DiiQue

Thanks guys! I'm definitely going to try and start a good breeding program... i have to start small and be real specific as my job takes me to a different country every two or three years, but I hope to use each time to further advance myself. Not sure how far I get because of that but we'll see. I'd love to go to a show or two when I'm back in the US later this year.. and also see about going to one of the shows in the Philippines as well.. Just to see the differences.

@Myates: if you could shoot me the list that you used to start off, I could build/mod my stuff off of that. I'll PM you my email.

@BB: I'd love to learn more about that water change system of yours.. Is that something custom built or commercially available for purchase?


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## Myates

Basement gave some great advice, she has beautiful fish  I'm lucky with mine that have champion offspring, but not by me.. yet (I hope hehe). 

I agree with choosing something, yes mixing things up is a lot of fun, good practice, but it is nice to have some goal/ideal.. mine is a strong orange HM line, and super red and gold HM is in the mix as well.. 

I forgot about the camera.. I had to get one too which cost a few hundred.

Basement went into great detail of the little stuff you don't think about.. you get all the supplies, etc but don't always think about what you want exactly and such.

If she is talking about a drip system, some people build it themselves, but if you are doing a smaller scale breeding you can get 3 of the drip systems for only $7 from Doctors Foster and Smith site.


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## dramaqueen

Myates, if you ever get golds put me down for one.


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## Myates

You got it! I should be getting the girls in this week as long as the heat packs he is waiting for arrives tomorrow.. one is yellow with gold overlay, going to put her with my emerald and gold boy. Hope to get some with lots of gold on them.. will continue to work that line for a bit along with my oranges. The boy is a brighter metallic gold, and if she is like that then I'm sure to have some pretty babies 
Also believe she is one of the experienced girls.. if so then it shouldn't take too long to get a spawn from them.


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## dramaqueen

Sounds good!


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## Bluewind

I know this is your thread hun, but I have a question myself. How long was it until a breeder breaks even and how much profit can be made a year?

I'm disabled, so I am thinking of trying it myself later this year. I am actually wanting to work on a new type. Breeding for temperment and health and seeing what colors and tail types results from it, but I worry about cost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Basement Bettas

Bluewind said:


> I know this is your thread hun, but I have a question myself. How long was it until a breeder breaks even and how much profit can be made a year?
> 
> I'm disabled, so I am thinking of trying it myself later this year. I am actually wanting to work on a new type. Breeding for temperment and health and seeing what colors and tail types results from it, but I worry about cost.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


never a profit.. lucky to break even. Have to remember your market. VT or pet shop stock sells for twelve cents to pet shop. Can't make it worth even a few water changes for that.. plus time. You do it because you have a passion to breed.. and hopefully sell enough to keep doing it.


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## Myates

Agree.. it takes a few months for one spawn to be able to be sold - then you have to sell them, hope someone is willing to pay the cost of the fish + $35 for shipping. So your fish has to stand out and look really good.. which could easily take a few generations of selective breeding. Even breeding HM x HM doesn't mean you'll get all HM, so you gotta hope to be able to sell the less desireable DT, etc.

And at 12 cents per fish at pet stores is if you get lucky - you tend to get more offering store credit rather than money, if you can find one who will take them off your hands. 

As BB mentioned, the constant costs of upkeep/care it's always going to be a catch up game on money.. at least for a few years, and that is if you don't expand and you sell lots of fish.

As for what you are wanting - temperament and health, and not put focus into fin type you won't be selling a lot of fish... you are lucky if you sell a VT nowadays, and messy tails won't get your bettas sold other than for the 12 cents mentioned above (can't judge what people want off of this forum.. 98% of the members here are the average keeper who go for pretty, yet cheap, bettas who won't pay the shipping costs). You have to put focus onto the fins and colors in order to make any of your money back. You won't ever get them passive enough to not be aggressive, and breeders breed for strong, healthy fish - so unsure what else can be done in that dept, their life span is what it is right now and that won't change for a very long time - not to mention their health is out of your control once you get rid of them. Reality is, you alone won't be able to do something that hasn't been able to of been done in the 100+ years of breeding the splendens.. so make sure you go into it knowing that you won't be able to change the behavior of the fish, but that you can offer some healthy, beautiful fish.

So definitely, if you want to do this for a fun (yet sometimes frustrating lol) hobby, go for it and have fun! If money isn't an issue, then get all you need and hope for some return in your investment. But if you are wanting to make it a profitable business? That only tends to happen for mass breeders and even then they still shell out a lot of money in upkeep. It seems like a never ending shopping trip sometimes lol.. I just got 2 big shipments in yesterday of more items such as glass canopies I needed for some new tanks, food, etc. And just spent a bunch of money on more females Sunday, etc. 

I can understand the wanting to do it while on disability - I don't work either and this gives me something to do and have fun with. But I'm only able to do it because of having the funds (boyfriend is the money maker lol).. otherwise I would just have to stick with a few pet bettas.

Hope I don't come off mean.. but want to make sure you understand you can't change the way an animal is by nature, so make sure you know that you will have to work on the looks of the fish, along with health, more than anything to make anything off of them.


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## dramaqueen

Good advice, Myates.


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## Myates

Thanks.. just trying to be real here.. can't change the nature of an animal to fit your wants. As for health, just use healthy parents and raise the fry properly and you will get healthy bettas. A few generations of healthy bettas won't change their life span as a whole/species. But it is good to keep their health a priority when breeding.. but just throwing together a couple healthy bettas without learning about their genetics and fins you're just going to end up with average bettas - even people who aren't willing to pay a lot of money for their fish would still like their HMs to look like HMs, their CTs to look like CTs, etc. It's a whole mess of things one has to work on when it comes to breeding sellable fish.


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## Coppermoon

dq...Stacy (lsb) has Gold. I'm going to get a few females from her in March.


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## dramaqueen

I just want pets since I won't be breeding. . I'll be taking culls and retired breeders when I get settled in Texas.


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## Bluewind

I'm not gonna be shipping OR selling to pet stores if I do this. It would be just me selling Bettas and Mystery Snails to the general public for pets at a price that competes with WalMart (local) and PetSmart (40 minutes away). Between the cost of females, heater, food, and such, I would have to sell 10 VT to break even and profit could be put back into the business for better/more breeders and tanks. It would be worth trying IMO.

On top of all that... I'm also a disabled woman who longs to earn a dollar of her own. Right now, I have to ask others to help me with EVERYTHING. I can't buy luxries because my money is not my own. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Myates

Honestly, you will be having to sell more than 10 VTs (would not ask for more than $3 for them to be competitive at pricing) to make up for the money that you will continuously put into the breeding - still got grow out tanks, ways to be able to heat upwards of a 100+ jars at any given time, live plants, medications, filters, heaters, etc etc which will cost more than $30 

The water and electric bill will also raise, as you will be doing daily water changes on all the jars and tanks. 

Ask any breeder and they will tell you that they thought at first they can get their money back, but it's a never ending cycle of money going out - you are lucky if you break even on how much you get for how much you spend per month, but you won't be bringing in anything extra to pay back the hundreds you spent setting up for a single spawn.

I'm all for you breeding and encouraging this hobby, but I'm going to be blunt when it comes to reality and say if you are in this for money, then you are in the wrong business. You can go the cheap route - but only if you are able to heat up the room to a constant 85* - then you can skimp out on the heaters and use old jars for containers, and have a room just for all the jars and tanks you will need.. space heater in there would help - but has to be on 24/7.

I would look into first seeing what all the supplies you need are first - make a list and then price it. Don't forget the small things such as nets and turkey basters, etc. And then see how long it would take to make up the money selling say 5 VT fish a month (that is being generous as you are only going to be selling through... newspaper?), 5 fish at about $3 = $15 a month. 

So, that $15 a month (sometimes less).. about $180 a year.. now $180 a year most likely will not cover all the food, water conditioner, added electric/water bill, cost of new stock, etc. Even if you are able to get them for $5 each.. it won't cover it.

VTs are sold very cheap - the people who buy VTs generally are just wanting a cheap pet.. it's the other fins types that fit the standard that bring in the money, that are most in demand and can go upwards of hundreds of dollars. 

You want to focus on health and making these fish docile.. applaud that.. but going to have to put some thought and focus on fins and multiple spawns to bring in any kind of money.

And I would definitely not keep aiming for the docile ones.. as those tend to be harder to breed.. the more aggressive the more the females want to breed 

If you want, you can make another thread with all the items you have on your list and we can help you go through everything, help find things cheaper, etc (shipping adds up.. spent couple hundred on shipping alone).. more than happy to help you set up properly and cheaply. Just don't want you getting halfway set up and realize it's a lot of money and to expect to sell a ton of fry - especially since you aren't shipping. There are only so many betta owners in your town


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## Basement Bettas

A docile betta is NOT a betta. The aggression is what makes them who they are. They are rather boring without the attitude. And you can't compete with walmart. You will have to advertise a lot to get traffic.. so why do it for the common VT? Do the HM's or CT's.. but then you have more work to keep the finnage. I have yet to make a dime on this and I breed nice fish. There is always another light bulb, heater, food, and what not to buy. You start to look for ways to save time rather than make money.


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## Oldfishlady

I have to agree in that there isn't a lot of money to be made in breeding Bettas, especially in the beginning. If the Betta was the only thing I sold I might break even. Since I breed other species of tropical fish-along with inverts and aquatic plants-I do make a fair profit and my hobby pays for itself (_I am disabled, on a limited budget too_). But as others have posted-most profit I do make goes back into the hobby-you always will need something and I use all kinds of short-cuts, lower cost methods/items etc.....If not one thing its another and with you being limited on who and how you sell/ship.....I don't want to discourage you or anything....but you may find that it ends up costing you much more than you make. But you never know...depending on your area you might have a high demand. With mine, sometimes I can't meet the demands, especially for the unique. (_Quality is more important to me than quantity_). Once you get established with a good reputation-you might find that hobbyist are beating down your door for more. But this usually doesn't happen over night-this usually takes years....

I can't speak for the other breeders, but in my case-I cull down to about 20-30 Betta fry/spawn-the best of the best-but I may have upward of 6-10 spawn going depending on the season. Since I have a good reputation and relationship with a local Ma&Pa shop. They tell me what species they need and that is what I breed besides the Betta splendens. I keep them supplied with a lot of inverts and plants too and I have found this is where I make most profit-along with different species of tropical fish. All of this takes a lot of time, space and work on my part and you have to be dedicated with passion for the hobby and Lucky.....

Understand, I have been keeping fish for over 40+ years and had most everything I needed when I started selling/raising fish/inverts/plants for profit over 12 years ago. It cost me the first 2 years, broke even for about 3 years and have seen profit up to now and even this varies from year to year and to be honest-the past 3-4 years it has decreased due to so many people getting out of the hobby all together. But that can sometimes help me since I can pick up supplies free-to-cheap-but doesn't help when I have something to sell....Double-edge sword...kinda thing....lol....


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## Myates

My boyfriend has come to the conclusion that this isn't a money making business like he had hoped.. luckily he understands and just wants me to have fun with it.. basically give me something to do instead of being bored all day at home lol. 

Basement Bettas and Oldfishlady are excellent breeders and have wonderful, beautiful, healthy fish.. Definitely would listen to them on ideas and tips offered, they are two of the very small group of top breeders here on the forums, imo.


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## DiiQue

In posting this thread, I knew it would be a venture where I would not be making money. There are too many variables and too many expenditures that make this a hard business to make money off of. If you are dead set on trying it out, like the others said, make a list of the equipment, price them out, and then make some realistic projections. You'll need a fall back plan as well, in case the business doesn't take off (i.e., where will you get money to sustain your business for the first couple of months where you wont be making money).

I've been pricing things out and by my estimates, will be spending over a thousand dollars for a small scale operation, where my goal is to learn the breeding process first hand. Once I find what works best for me, I can concentrate on perfecting the fish (i.e. spending a whole lot more).


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## Myates

lol.. I hope the sites I sent you helped in pricing.. I didn't price shop to the extreme, but where I got those things were at reasonable/low prices. Only second hand item was a 10g I got for just growing out some plants. I don't have many options where I am (very small town) for any used items, had to order 99% of things online.. so it adds up real quickly then.


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## DiiQue

Myates said:


> lol.. I hope the sites I sent you helped in pricing.. I didn't price shop to the extreme, but where I got those things were at reasonable/low prices. Only second hand item was a 10g I got for just growing out some plants. I don't have many options where I am (very small town) for any used items, had to order 99% of things online.. so it adds up real quickly then.


You've been extremely helpful and the sites/links/info you sent was what I needed to better plan for this. Right now, I'm just concentrating on fact finding so when I get back to the U.S. in August, I have my final list of what to get and just go on a spending spree. So for the whole year I am back there for training (employer is going to _TRY_ to teach me chinese, for my next assignment), I already told my wife that the second bedroom would be a tank stock room. She said that would be fine (doesnt know what she just said "yes" to, lol). The one potential big ticket item for me is the betta barracks, which if I can find a good/simple design to plagierize, I will try to have manufactured while I'm still here in Mexico. I've seen BB's systems on her site and they really look nice, but need something not as massive, since I need it to be as portable as possible with my moving around.


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## Myates

I am working on a small scale design.. not going to use the filtration system, but going to house the bettas and a heater, etc. Mine are for wall shelving and wide open shelves... so small scale is doable if you are willing to do a bit more work for the water changes. It's more time consuming and precise than it is expensive to make.. but I believe it would be worth it as it's a bit neater and easier to keep track of the fish, etc. Can go to her site and ask for designs, there are a few breeders there that make their own and may be able to help you design one to fit your needs.. and they'll be able to tell you how.. I'll mail ya the link to the section


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