# UnderGravel Filter?



## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

I don't want any accidents so I was thinking if an under gravel filter. Has anybody have one or currently do? How does it work?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

You have to put equal pressure in my book on guppies it says they ruin the fins.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

Ok. I didn't know if they where hard to use and required A BILLION things.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

There not that hard just outdated.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

So the technology isn't the best.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Yes Sponge and Hang on filters are great. Undergravel Filters are not meant for long finned fish.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks. The filter is 4 my sorority tank.


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## Kuronue (Oct 12, 2012)

I use an undergravel filter with my normal filter, it has its pros along with its cons.

First of all, it is NOT a replacement for a regular media filter. Its for the gravel. It works with bubble stones to draw up the water from the very bottom of the tank and under the gravel and through its own filters (usually carbon). Its designed to keep ammonia and/or bacterial build up from occuring in the gravel.

It is usually installed under the gravel against the bare bottom of the tank, mine does 2-3 tubes that the air stones go into topped with the filter holders. I've never had a problem with fish taking any sort of damage in the past 5 years I've owned one, but that's just me.

cons: -It does not filter the entire tank by itself
- Will not pull all fish poo and uneaten food out of the gravel so you still should vaccuum your gravel.
- Not designed to work well with plants
- Dependant on design, it can be hard to clean.

Pros: - stops ammonia build up in the gravel
- stops bacteria build up in gravel
- does help against algae

It is older technology, but with a decent media filter to pick up the slack I find them helpful.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Use a regular HOB filter like Aquaclear and add a prefilter sponge.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

I was at petsmart and the lady said its just a regular filter that replaces the hanging. Does the same thing.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

If anything hang ons are better.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

Oh hey CB ur back! And I've decided to wait a while for te filter.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Yeah I am still upset about what happened.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

Kuronue is very right and gives great information.

I disagree with ChoclateBetta about the long finned fish though. Many long finned fish have problems with mounted filters, the intake can (not will, some intakes are different) shred finnage if it's not covered properly and the outflow will easily toss Halfmoons and such around if it's too strong.

Undergravel filters can help in many ways in addition to a carbon filter. I've never once heard of a fish getting torn up because of an undergravel filter. It's basically just bubbles in a tube, pretty harmless. They are nothing like carbon filters mind you but Kuronue gave all the information you really need for comparing the two.

I've used undergravel filters in my smaller tanks of 2 gallons or 1 gallon, they are great for medicating or quarantining a fish.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

I agree with Cheese. I've used undergravel filters in quite a few of my tanks, and i never had any problems. All of the torn fins due to filters I've had were with the ones that hang over the side, such as the Top Fin brand filters that usually come in starter kits for 5 and 10 gallon tanks. I've used undergravel filters in one gallon hospital tanks, for sick fish, I have had a couple of fish who lived in 1-2 gallon tanks with undergravel filters as their only filter. With proper water care, they work great in the smaller tanks.
In a larger tank, I wouldn't recommend having an undergravel filter as your only filter. If you have a sorority, I am assuming you have at least a 5 gallon? Though hopefully it's a 10 or more. If so, Tetra brand makes an awesome line of filters called "Whisper" power filters. They start out with a little bubbly filter that's good for smaller tanks (1-3 gallons) and go up from there. They are quiet internal filters, with a moderate outflow, that won't give your fish a hard time when it's swimming, and they're nice and quiet. I use the Whisper filters in 95% of my tanks (excluding my cichlid tank and my Plakat Betta's tank) and I highly recommend them.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Not all hang on filters are high current Carter has a standard one. Sponge filters are better than undergravel. I tried a whisper filter in my ten gallon too big and powerful.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

You may have purchased the wrong size. I have 3 of them, two of them are in 5 gallons and one is in a 10. They have switches on the back so you can adjust how powerful they are. The two 5 gallons have halfmoon males, they have no trouble what so ever with the outflow, they don't get pushed around even in the least bit. And my 10 gallon has a veiltail who loves playing in the outflow and it's at it's highest setting. It doesn't throw him around at all, it gives him great exercise too even though the tank is big enough for him to not have an issue with exercise.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

They encourage bacteria buildup from what my book on guppies says its bad for long finned fish.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

Unfortunately many books about fish have incorrect information. I've read a handful of books about Bettas and other fish and I always see tons of wrong information. I've never heard of undergravel filters being bad for fish with long fins, I've never had a problem with them and I've never seen or heard of anyone complaining about having any problems with them. 

Any type of filter is better than no filter at all. Since this thread is about a sorority tank we don't have to worry about finnage anyway. In a sorority tank you really should have some sort of filter whether undergravel or mounted, there should be some sort of something in there. A true filter, like Fisheh said, would be the best since there are multiple fish in the tank. 

It's all up to the OP on what filter to get but I do love the Whisper filters. I have three of this filter (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tetra-Whi...-Gallon-Acquariums-Power-Filter-1-ct/10291764) in my tanks, it's super quiet. These tanks are actually in my bedroom and I don't hear them at all at night when I go to sleep. They have adjustable settings so you can have it on high or low or inbetween so it doesn't throw your fish around. I don't know what size aquarium the OP has but if it's larger than 10 gallons they have one that looks exactly the same but is slightly larger and is good for I believe up to 20 gallons. It's a fairly inexpensive filter and it's filter pad replacements are cheap as well.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Its the animal planet book on guppies. Written by a person who takes guppies to compete and breeds high quality.


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## Kuronue (Oct 12, 2012)

I've never tried one with guppies, then again ... never tried guppies. My old HM never had a problem with it, nor did the CT before him. I've had one in my tank for a number of years and never had a problem with bacteria buildup and my HM loved to sleep on the gravel.

As before mentioned, I've never kept a guppy. I've always had a betta in the tank and by all accounts guppies and a betta are a baaad combination. That said, I don't know with guppies, but at least in my experience bettas do just fine with an under gravel filter.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

I wonder if maybe an undergravel filter would be bad with guppies because they are small fish, and with the wrong covering of the outflow they may be able to swim in the tube for the undergravel filter? I'fe had guppies a few times and I never had problems with them and undergravel filters.But I had a proper covering for the outflow. 
Also, Cheese is correct. Just because information is published in a book doesn't make it accurate. Things that make profits get published just as much if not more than things that make for a safe, healthy fish tank.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Its by an aquarist with years of expierence that breeds show guppies and I am pretty sure the Betta person breeds show fish too.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

I've had guppies. I can't keep guppies or goldfish alive. I have had red eyes tetras kissing gourami and some others.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Wow Kissing Gouramis you must have had a large tank. I am pretty sure the one I saw inflicted huge damage on a large Cichlid.


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

I had 1


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Yes but they grow 12 inches and are aggressive.


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## JAGalletta (Oct 24, 2012)

Hopefully I'm not bringing this post back from the dead, but I didn't want to start a new post with the same theme:

I just got an under-gravel filter - the modular one you piece together to fit your tank, with the two stacks, air stones, and carbon cartridges. It is my understanding that the bacteria colonies that process the ammonia and nitrites in the tank actually live in the substrate (and sponge in a sponge filter). That being said, wouldn't it be a natural(ish) solution to providing adequate water flow for the bacteria living in the gravel, thereby providing adequate processing of the ammonia and nitrite? I'm not so much worried about water clarity as I am with ammonia and nitrites. I'm believing that an under-gravel filter will be able to handle the bio-load of 6 inches of fish in a 5.5 gal tank after removing the power filter. Am I wrong? If not, would I need to "cycle" the under-gravel filter before removing the power filter?

Thanks in advance!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

In normal tanks the bacteria are on the substrate too.


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## JAGalletta (Oct 24, 2012)

Ok, can anyone answer my question?


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I'm sure they are aware of that. 

Does this help?
Under gravel filters consist of a plastic grate or "filter plate" which lies under the gravel of the tank. This plate allows water to flow freely under the gravel. Water is drawn through the gravel (which acts as a mechanical and biological filter). To move the water, you can use either power heads or air pumps. A power head will pump water out of the top of the lift tube and into the tank, and air pump will blow bubbles at the bottom of the lift tubes and the bubbles will lift







water up the lift tube and into the tank. As water is moved out of the lift tube, it is replaced with water from under the filter plate, which in turn pulls water through the gravel where it is cleaned.* The gravel it self provides mechanical filtration by catching large free-floating particles. The gravel, as well as the filter plate, tank bottom, and lift tubes, provide a bed for the bacteria of a biological filter. Under gravel filters primarily provide biological filtration.*


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Plants are way better espiaclly semi aquatics.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

2 things, Tikibirds:

1. That is one of the best explanations for an underground filter I have ever read. Aside from my smaller tanks, I've always delt in hanging filters of some kind or another, but I can see how an appropriate sized undergravel filter would be benificial to a tank's cycle. 
2. Your profile picture is SO cute! ^_^ 

And JAGaletta, it seems to me that with proper tank maintenance (ie., water changes and vacuuming, and proper filter maintenance) your undergravel filter should be fine. I can't say as I've ever had one that had a cartridge, so kudos to you for actually going out and getting a good one. All of mine always came with my tanks, and I did use one from another tank (a 3 gallon) in a ten gallon, but it was along with one of my Whisper filters. I liked it a lot, but I used it more for bubbles than a filter. I didn't like it on it's own, mostly because I had 3 bettas and a couple of dwarf gourami in the tank (yes, I've heard they're semi-aggressive, but I've never had one that was aggressive, although I wouldn't recommend just getting dwarf gourami and putting them in a tank, simply because of the semi-aggressive-ness of the species). [End random gourami speel]
ANYWAYS I suppose what I am trying to say, is it sounds like your tank should be fine. And really, don't feel bad for posting here, that's what the thread was here for.


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## JAGalletta (Oct 24, 2012)

This is the one I just got, and can only fit 5 of the snap-together modules in my tank (each measuring about 3" x 6" for a total of about 90 square inches of filtration beneath the gravel): http://reviews.petsmart.com/4830/12264887/top-fin-top-fin-r-undergravel-filter-reviews/reviews.htm

The cartridges are fairly large charcoal pellets, so more of a chemical filtration rather than mechanical. I can see this filter doing well in terms of biological filtration but don't imagine my medium sized gravel doing much to aid in mechanical filtration. I'm probably going to have "floaties" (suspended particles too small to be filtered out by the gravel) swimming around in the tank -- is that bad for the fish?

I haven't installed it yet, but I assembled it for an idea of its fit. I'm going to have to trim the two air bubble stacks to be able to keep my tank lid/light on the tank.


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## horsyqueen (Nov 13, 2012)

I dislike undergravel filters as things get lodged under the like holding thing under the gravel. Grrrrrrrr it drove me up the wall when I had a under gravel filter in the end when sorting out the tank I pulled it out and replaced the filter.


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## JAGalletta (Oct 24, 2012)

Guys, thanks again for the knowledge and the entertainment!! ;-)


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

ChoclateBetta said:


> Its called Hijacking a thread. If you have a question your supposedto PM or build a new thread.



This is not thread hijacking, JAGalletta had a question that pertained to this thread. Generally speaking threads are built from one original question and discussed and many times other questions arise to be asked and answered continuing a conversation in a thread along, which is what makes many threads so popular. It's very that unfortunate you don't understand that.


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## amyteee (Sep 13, 2012)

I have been using an undergravel filter in my 2.5 gallon for a few months and its great. Live plants combined with a good light can help with the water quality too. I only need to change my water twice a week in small amounts, and sometimes have a poke at the gravel with the siphon to suck out any excess detritus. I guess people have mixed opinions on them though. I love them 

Picture of the tank. You can see the outflow tube to the left


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## amyteee (Sep 13, 2012)

I also just realised nobody seems to have explained to the OP how the undergravel filter actually works...

Basically its a raised plate with small holes to allow water through placed into a bare bottom tank. An uplift tube is attached to this by some means, then an airline is fed down this tube about two thirds of the way. The plate is topped with about 1.5-2 inches of gravel, the smaller gravel being the best type to use in my experience. When the air pump is turned on the air bubbles will draw water down through the gravel and under the filter plate, then carries the water back up through the outflow tube. The gravel is essentially your filter media.

Best to have a flow control tap on your air pump so that the bubbling isn't too vigorous. My boy bites his tail if I leave it turned up for prolonged periods, so I have to keep a gentle bubbling.

Longest post I have ever written - Phew!


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

amyteee, I love your tank, it's very pretty!


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## amyteee (Sep 13, 2012)

TheCheese909 said:


> amyteee, I love your tank, it's very pretty!


Thankyou!


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## JAGalletta (Oct 24, 2012)

TheCheese909 said:


> amyteee, I love your tank, it's very pretty!


+1! I can't wait to install it!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

amyteee said:


> I also just realised nobody seems to have explained to the OP how the undergravel filter actually works...
> 
> Basically its a raised plate with small holes to allow water through placed into a bare bottom tank. An uplift tube is attached to this by some means, then an airline is fed down this tube about two thirds of the way. The plate is topped with about 1.5-2 inches of gravel, the smaller gravel being the best type to use in my experience. When the air pump is turned on the air bubbles will draw water down through the gravel and under the filter plate, then carries the water back up through the outflow tube. The gravel is essentially your filter media.
> 
> Best to have a flow control tap on your air pump so that the bubbling isn't too vigorous. My boy bites his tail if I leave it turned up for prolonged periods, so I have to keep a gentle bubbling. Longest post I have ever written - Phew!


 Some one posted this great Diagram.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

TheCheese909 said:


> amyteee, I love your tank, it's very pretty!


+2. That is a gorgeous tank. I wish I could keep live plants, but I always kill any that I try to cultivate.  Except moss balls, I have 4 of those.  Does your undergravel filter mess with the root system in any way? Or vice versa, do the roots ever mess with the filter? I've heard a few people say that an undergravel filter is bad with live plants, but your tank says otherwise.


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

Without either another filter that has sponge and some kind of porous media that allows the bacteria to colonize or live plants, that are actively growing, an undergravel filter isn't always the best. However what you can do is get something like lava rock, crush it up, and lay it on top of the undergravel filter, or in it if the pieces are small enough. This way, you have much greater surface area for the bacteria to settle on as regular gravel will not usually have enough surface area. If you ever have any money that you have lying around you can get the Azoo Palm Filter on Amazon for like $10 (sign up for a Prime trial, but make sure to cancel it before the 1 month is up as it costs $79 a year, which is worth it if you share it and if you order a lot like me) Prime will get you free two day shipping so you get a low price. The filter is very small and has adjustable flow to where any sized finned betta could swim by it. Having an undergravel filter plus a hang on back is good for better circulation and more surface area fr bacteria. What is also great is you can take the remaining crushed up lava rock and fill in the area in the HOB that is not being used for more are for bacteria. It is always better to have more than you need than too little.

Also, hyjacking is more of "Oh whoa this thread is helpful! Can you go check out my thread (that has nothing to do with this)" or if they take it over and talk about something else. If the subject is undergravel and someone asks a question or asks what it is or something, that helps for anybody interested in the topic later on and they can look at this thread. That's all I'm gonna say.


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## amyteee (Sep 13, 2012)

Fishehgobloop said:


> +2. That is a gorgeous tank. I wish I could keep live plants, but I always kill any that I try to cultivate.  Except moss balls, I have 4 of those.  Does your undergravel filter mess with the root system in any way? Or vice versa, do the roots ever mess with the filter? I've heard a few people say that an undergravel filter is bad with live plants, but your tank says otherwise.


Thanks! Roots grow really well in mine but they do grow right into the filter plate too which makes them hard to pull up if you ever want to split and propagate. I'll show you an amazon sword I had that started with a black stub of dead roots. Sadly this plant died after i split it :<

*edit* Lots of new leaves grew on this one while it was a single plant too.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

*Ugf*

Ok, I just need to weigh in here...

UGF are NOT "outdated". Period. There are no other filters that work the same way. UGF's circulate water throughout the tank more completely than other filters. When you run a tank with a heater, that's a really nice thing to have, because it helps keep the water temp uniform throughout the tank rather than having hot and cold spots. 

As for the flow rate...just baffle the riser tube. That's what people do to their sponge filters all the time. I shoved some pieces of a soft plastic plant into the top of my riser tube, and viola! 

Plants with deep roots can be problematic with UGF's, but there are floating plants and such that are just fine. 

I'm not saying everyone has to use a UGF. I'm not saying they are the best kind of filter; there is no "one true way". But, they do have advantages that I think are greatly overlooked.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

They kind of are. Planted HOBs forever.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

That's your own opinion CB and does not count for everyone else. NorthernLights is correct.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

Cheese is right, just because something is "older" or "different" or whatever doesn't make it outdated. We all use what we use because it's what works best for us based on our knowledge, and/or what we've done with the tanks that we have. It's like the saying "don't knock it till you've tried it," except instead of food or whatever, it's fish tank filters.


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## Kithy (Nov 21, 2012)

I have had UG filters and for smaller tanks they seemed good. If I had the money to do it I'd use both an UG and a HOB just because you really can't have too much filtration, especially with goldfish. 

Everything has it's good points and bad points as well as risks to fish, including betta. But with proper care, setup and research all can work well.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Accoring to my book its not good for long finned fish. You should see how many Nitrates a planted HOB can remove. I have heard of 20 or 30 PPM removed in a week.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

CB, I really think your book is misinforming, or whoever wrote it didn't correctly baffle the filter, because I haven't ever heard of UGF's being a problem for long finned fish. I've tried them, and I haven't ever had any problems with fin ripping from them, or strong outflow buffeting my fish and pushing them everywhere.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

Now if they were using a power head hooked up to some insane monster UG in a 2 gallon aquarium and had something like a guppy in there I could understand that then. My guess is that either it was a typo in your book, the writer had a bad bit of luck OR the writer had something else in their aquarium that was shredding the fins of their fish. 

You cannot believe everything you read even if its from some top amazing author. It's better to go by other peoples first hand experiences, people you know are real rather than just some random author of a book. But to each his or her own, if that's what you believe then that's what you believe. We are just telling you, all of us are telling you that none of us have ever, not once had any issues with an UG filter with our long finned fish.


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## JAGalletta (Oct 24, 2012)

Keep in mind, mine is powered by an airlift tube as opposed to a power head. Therefore, there is minimal outflow from the filter and even less going in due to the surface area of the grates under the gravel. I have 4 platys and my betta living happily with the flow. (10 gal, 9.5 inches of fish)


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Whoops got mixed up it says just bad for Guppies. "Breeders report that after using an undergravel filter for week or two, you will be able to watch the males' tail almost fall apart, due to a high bacteria count in their water. Although may prove useful for a fish store, they are not a good choice for a serious guppy breeder." This guy raises and competes guppiess in shows.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

But since he's a breeder that shows guppies his definition of "falling apart" may be far different from ours. He wants absolute perfection so he may have been exaggerating by our standards of a normal healthy guppy. 

I've never heard of good bacteria destroying a fish's fins, it sounds more like he had finrot and wasn't taking care of his tank like he should have, especially since he had only been using it for 2 weeks.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

This person is knows what there doing. They have won multiple breeding awards.


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## Kithy (Nov 21, 2012)

The only thing I've ever heard of a fish being injured by a UG filter is a betta somehow got under it. Other than that I haven't personally heard anything.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

CB, he is a breeder and a shower I'm sure he knows what he's doing in that department but that does not mean he knows everything about UG and HOB filters. 

Him saying that the UG had a large amount of bacterial buildup means nothing since all filters encourage this. Saying the UG is bad because it's doing an amazing job at what it's meant to do is preposterous.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

Kithy said:


> The only thing I've ever heard of a fish being injured by a UG filter is a betta somehow got under it. Other than that I haven't personally heard anything.


That would suck majorly. I always make sure there is a good bed of gravel when I'm using a UGF for that reason. :/ 




CB, all filters encourage bacteria buildup, it's part of the cycle of a tank. And just because a person won an award for the look of his fish, that doesn't necessarily mean that they know everything. And there is a lot more that goes into tank care (as you well know) than JUST what kind of filter you use. To his credit, he's found a method that works for him, and took it and ran with it. That's what we, as fish keepers, do. We learn what works best with what we have, and we go with it. It's about constantly learning more about our fish, and how to take care of them, and what they need, and what they like and dislike. There's no need to be rude like that, saying things like "He is more *experienced in his field than you will ever be in his field." Uh, yeah, if we never get into guppies, then he will ALWAYS be more experienced with them than we are. But we don't base our personal decisions and what we know solely on one book's information. We base them on the knowledge we gain on the way, by our own experiences, and also from other people's experiences that get shared with us in places like this.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

*wow*

Well, I'd be interested to know what his water parameters were. How did he decide it was the UGF causing the problem? 

Chocolate, considering the show standards and ideals for bettas have led us to halfmoon mania, despite the fact that the fish can hardly swim sometimes and have trouble even mating, I am not going to take a show breeder's word as Gospel. Frankly, I think animals shows destroy beautiful creatures.


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## Fishehgobloop (Aug 13, 2011)

I absolutely agree with you, NorthernLights. The more attention any animal gets for it's beauty can ultimately harm them. (Taking our beautiful bettas for example, and how popular they are for their beauty, with all of the misconceptions on how to care for them). And not only that, but sometimes what you see in an animal show is not always how the animal is treated behind the scenes (sadly).


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