# New Breeding



## WagonDragon (Jan 16, 2015)

Hello, 
Recently I have discovered my fascination with a gold betta fish. I saw one once, and haven't been able to find a new one since. So I was hoping to come by one by breeding my own. I've been wanting to breed for a long time anyways, as it seems to be a fun hobby. I was wondering if anybody knew what colors I should breed to produce a golden fish? Or even a very vibrant yellow. And also any tips for first time breeding, and what to do with all the extra babies. I've been reading about culling, and I would really hope not to kill them. I was hoping to give some away to the neighborhood kiddos.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

If you have a big spawn, there will be some that you have to kill. It's not a pleasant part of breeding, and it's one that many people try to gloss over ("Oh, I never kill, all my fish get homes..."), but unfortunately, there will be some that are so deformed that they have no chance of a quality life. For the rest, the ones that are just "extra," there are options. Most of mine went to pet stores, or were offered for adoption here. Ask around _before _you spawn, build a relationship with mom and pop shops, and you ought to be able to find an outlet for your extra babies.

As for gold...I think for gold you'll be working with metallics. Remember that mixing bettas is not like mixing paint, you won't be able to spawn steel and yellow and get gold. Maybe Indjo will know more.


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## Cey (Jan 15, 2015)

I am not a breeder, but I located this for you: http://bettasource.com/more-betta/genetics/metallics/copper-gold/

They also seem to have a lot of information on betta genetics there.

I'm curious to see what others say, but either way; good luck!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Good luck!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Copper: 
a greyish/steel color with a tint of red which makes it look copper. From different light angles it may look more green or purple. This color/trait has been crossed to several colors to create new metallic colors. Amongst which produced a lighter, more golden shine. Many would call these as "gold". I DO NOT CALL THESE GOLD. To me they are copper based, thus I call them copper. 

Gold:
A yellow/light orange (not pale/flesh color) colors with metallic shimmer. 
The secrets to produce this color has yet to be revealed. Many speculations have been thrown in the internet but none (to my knowledge) proven successful. One person who produces "true" gold is bettamas of Malaysia. You can at least order his fish and learn of their genetic make up by crossing them to other colors.

These are the facts I know:
- White opaque (milk white) x copper = platinum
- BUT yellow/orange x copper DOES NOT produce gold.
- Gold x gold = like yellow x yellow often becomes pale gold
- Copper x red dragon (the ones with irid rays on fins or known from a line of yellow/white dragons) If lucky will produce a few gold and platinum. I'm not sure if these will eventually breed true because the ones I produced were of poor form so I never continued.

If you're set on working for gold, I suggest you start by researching Yellow and Orange (recessive colors), plus metallics. Understanding Dragons would help because yellow is easier to achieve in dragons.

Assuming gold is basically metallic yellow, the genes in play would include:
C : cambodian for the light body

NR : Non Red to change red pigments to yellow/orange
Blond to eliminate black pigments 

R : red pigments to be turned into yellow

Steel blue / copper : as the basis of metallic

Dragon (red dragon) ; if you are attempting this route. Some say dragons carry double metallic genes instead of the single gene of copper


If you ever figure out their secrets, please share them with us.


Good luck


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Also interested in golds. Busy right now, but here's some quick notes:

Original "gold" by Supinpong in Bangkok, created by platinum to copper cross in 2004-2006









Possibly Interbetta team bought Supinpong spawns or develop separate line, currently selling "Super Gold" (HM and HMPK on Aquabid; good gold, bad form).

Bettanas (Khai) import Super Gold HM from Bangkok, develop beautiful golds (original betta)









Molecular biology work by Khai et al (publish paper) and unpublished work in US (forgot group) indicate imbellis cross to splendens brought in new yellow irridescence. Genetics work by European group and US group support this, called the trait "no metallic spread" (nms) or "reduced yellow irridescence" (ryi). To get copper, need steel (blbl) and two copies of yellow irridescence. Interesting thing, both dragon and metallic betta carry two copies.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Platinum x copper crosses . . . interesting. It's true platinum carries NR genes and both platinum and copper carries red genes. But I never got anything close to true golds when I crossed those colors in the past. Thank you for sharing.

I was thinking of crossing platinums to yellow (never tried this). The metallic and NR are there. . . .you guys are bad influence. LOL . . . Now I want to breed for them again!!!

I wish I could read the papers you mentioned.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

(Might be able to find using Google?)

Presence of yellow iridescence was originally identified by Leo Buss, Yale University. Published an article in FAMA, November 2005 magazine. First to name the trait "no metallic spread".

(Sorry not Khai, it was Khoo.) Yellow iridescence work recently confirmed and expanded by Phrang lab in published paper: _Khoo G. , Lim T.M. and Phang V.P.E. (2014). Cellular basis of metallic iridescence in the Siamese fighting fish, Betta splendens . The Israeli Journal of Aquaculture_. They show size and angle affect color of iridescence link here.

Victoria Stark, Leo Buss, and Gene Lucas (to name a few) are part of US group of breeders to work on dragons/metallic/gold. Later changed name from "no metallic spread" to "reduced yellow iridescence" (copy of FAMA, March 2006).

Work by Victoria:
F0: Copper x Yellow --> F1: gold scale red, cambo, green/red multi
F1: green/red multi siblings --> F2: gold scale red, cambo, yellow, green/red multi
In F3 --> 'Brass' (gold body, red fins)

Joep H. M. van Esch part of European group of breeders, did a good write up with photos on metallic genetics: article here

Agree with you about needing cambo (C), yellow (NR1) in a gold betta. I think opaque/platinum dilutes or masks the yellow iridescence. See video on Interbetta "Super Gold" HMPK from spring 2014 spawn, looks like platinum with gold wash. Some do look like they carry NR1, especially on the anal and ventral fins. Other photos show red wash on gold (more rusty) or blue wash (blue/green iridescence) mainly on caudal and dorsal fins. Under bright light, they look more like Supinpong's pearl gold, not Khai's bright 24 carat gold.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Thank you for the links. 

I've read the last two articles about metallic. To my understanding they don't particularly discuss how to create gold. And Victoria talked more about coppers with golden shimmer which was what I produced with platinum x copper crosses. I haven't read the first paper though. Perhaps the answer is in that article.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Combine all this information together:
1. Buss showed that long fin _spendens_ originally carried two iridescence: blue and yellow.
2. Long fin _splendens_ were later selectively bred for blue colors, therefore lost yellow iridescence.
3. Then, several groups breed _splendens_ to wild _imbellis _or _mahachai _and produce metallic or dragon, indicate a new trait was brought in.
4. Genetic work and microscope work both showed that the wild betta introduced a new yellow iridescence to _splendens_.
5. Spread yellow iridescence = metallic phenotype.
6. Joep's article shows how blue and yellow iridescence interact in _splendens_: 

steel betta with no yellow (bl/bl nms/nms) = steel blue
steel betta with one yellow (bl/bl nms/+) = metallic blue
steel betta with two yellow (bl/bl +/+) = copper

Now, what happens if you go the other way, remove blue?
copper betta with two blue (bl/bl +/+) = copper
copper betta with one blue (bl/- +/+) = ???
copper betta with no blue (-/- +/+) = yellow iridescence only
I think this is the first step to breeding a gold betta, need a betta that is +/+ for nms: copper or dragon.

How to get rid of blue? (No matter how, will need to back-cross or cross F1 to regain +/+)
1. Bring in betta with no/little iridescence: clean yellow, cambodian, red?
2. Blue betta came from Si (spread iridescence) mutation, go back to red?

But how to get gold betta? 
Supinpong chose platinum x copper: 
opaque (bl/bl nms/nms) x copper (bl/bl +/+) = platinum (bl/bl nms/+)
platinum x copper = nms/+ OR +/+ for yellow iridescence
but opaque and steel are also in the iridescence layer, therefore partially mask the yellow iridescence = dilute gold color
Here: cleaning up the iridescence layer is the second step, no blue, no opaque, need pure yellow iridescence.

Interbetta Super Gold looks similar to Supinpong pearl gold, possibly stronger opaque. Not interested in this direction, want a 24 carat gold.

Khai chose to line-breed Super Gold, possibly end up reducing opaque and building a denser yellow iridescence. 

Here, third step? Maybe bring in solid yellow (non red) to enhance the gold color. 

Solid yellow (NR1) betta with yellow iridescence (+/+ for nms) would be the goal. Though yellow is hard to breed... Sigh. 
The most important part is a clean iridescence layer: no opaque, no blue. Only yellow iridescence.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Basically we are on the same page. You can explain everything superbly, while I only view breeding results. 

Given that platinum carries metallic and NR, it should work better than copper which carries too much blue irid and without NR. But since platinums has too much top layer genes, covering the gold color, pairing them to deep clean yellow/orange should enhance the yellow iridescence. It may take several generations.

Using dragons may be faster, since some say they surely carry double metallic. And IME, getting yellow phenotype is much easier in dragons. Once clean yellow dragon is achieved (preferably that breeds true), add deep clean yellow. Out of all fry, some will be partial dragons while others will only be metallic. Breed further towards metallic should eventually produce true gold. 

Since pale or pearl golds are available, these could be used when we need to add new genetics to the line. Cambodians can also be used, but I'm not sure how far back it will affect the color.

How does that sound???


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

gold came about through black bettas believe it or not. While I'm yet to actually breed for the perfect black because I've culled all my spawns, I do know that you can achieve gold through melano black and some other color type. I think I might know which one, but my breeder friend will know for sure, she gave me the info from her circle of breeder friends and etc. I saved it, but I just need to access it. And no other black will work, it has to be a melano. I don't know why or how but that's how she did it, I'll let you know when I find my folder


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I think you are referring to what became known as the Super Black line which was originally a copper x melano to generate fertile "black" females: link here



> Super Black
> With the advent of the copper types, it became popular to cross the solid coppers onto every conceivable regulated betta color imaginable, including melano. The first copper/gold female I [Victoria] was able to acquire (in 2003) was bred to a melano HM male from Bonnie McKinley lines, and produced 100% metallic green. Subsequent generations saw the return of the melano color, with some modifications: while most of the blacks from this line had heavy coppery iridescence, they were curiously free from most blue or steel iridescence normally seen (and faulted) on melano bettas. Selective breeding increased the intensity of the black color while keeping the line relatively free from blue or steel, and eventually produced black females which had enough coppery iridescence to be fertile. Although many fish from copper melano lines have too much copper to be considered ideal for IBC showing purposes, there are still individuals who exhibit a perfect solid 'mollie' black color without a trace of metallic or blue iridescence. It remains to be seen how enterprising breeders can isolate these ideals and begin producing solid black bettas from metallic lines that are consistently competing at top levels.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

indjo said:


> Using dragons may be faster, since some say they surely carry double metallic. And IME, getting yellow phenotype is much easier in dragons. Once clean yellow dragon is achieved (preferably that breeds true), add deep clean yellow. Out of all fry, some will be partial dragons while others will only be metallic. Breed further towards metallic should eventually produce true gold.


Sorry, Indjo; I stayed up too late last night talking about golds. I'm falling asleep at the keyboard now.  I'll just briefly mention my thoughts on dragons tonight.

Dragon genetics are strange; I don't completely understand all the traits that were brought in by the _mahachai_ x _spendens_ cross. Dragons do carry two copies of the yellow iridescence (as shown by Joep), but color-wise the Thai dragons are shiny metallic white/silver. The pigment acts a lot like opaque in that it accumulates more and more as the betta gets older. This is different from metallic, which appears early on in fry development. Does this mean that dragon will also partially mask gold like opaque? Or alternatively, will dragon allow yellow iridescence to accumulate as the betta ages like Victoria's blue Armadillo strain? It would be an interesting cross to try (yellow dragon x gold). Another interesting note: the original Thai dragon was gold scales on a light bodied fish (link here). Sometime after Interbetta team bought the spawn, it changed to white/silver scales on a dark bodied fish. How/why did they lose the gold?

Both dragon and copper carry (nms +/+), but I think a gold betta bred from a dragon line will be very different from a gold betta bred from a copper line.

Many things to consider, definitely continue later! Goodnight for now.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aah, my thoughts wandered in a different direction than yours. Can metallic be separated back out from dragon like that? I've seen the "Samurai" betta but it looks like you lose the entire iridescence layer when you start to breed out the dragon scale, like this:


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Assuming the SB was originated from a metallic cross, it should be possible. Not really sure how though, other than breeding out to non dragon/metallic. Perhaps Irid dragons would be easier; I mean from my limited spawns of green/blue dragon x green/blue dragon produced some totally non dragon/metallic masks, or at least they didn't look like dragons.

As for the copper x red drgn cross : Sorry for the lousy pictures. I hope you'll have an idea of what I mean (color results). I produced similar to "pearl metallic" . . . not quite gold yet, but close. Since I have lost interest in creating gold, I didn't continue breeding them. Some of the coppers were even light shaded silverish and goldish.

Parents were male: red copper (from a long line of coppers) to a female : red dragon (from a line that produced yellow, orange, and rather white dragons)

View attachment 490394


View attachment 490402


View attachment 490410


Unfortunately, I'm no longer in a position to "experiment" as that would produce thousands. So I'll have to be satisfied with your spawns . . . . if/when you ever breed for them. :lol:


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ah haha, I should have more time to experiment this summer, after I move and set up a new fish room. I've spent the last months packing up fish supplies, but I may have accidentally *COUGH* left enough equipment in the basement to do a small test spawn. I have two sibling HM females from Namcha (bettagold_) that are suppose to be from a Super Gold line. Outer rays on the caudal are a bit short but the yellow iridescence looks promising. They'll come out of quarantine next week. Plan to breed for color first, then improve fins.

Rather than breeding yellow dragon, I wonder if the fastest and simplest way would be through gold x yellow crosses. The yellow iridescence is a single locus trait and easy to track (just check the rays on the pectoral fins for gold). Keep breeding toward a clean yellow and then do sibling crosses to bring back gold.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If you can get your hands on deep yellow gold, why cross them . . . unless you need to introduce new unrelated genes.

In the past bright yellow x pale gold gave me pale yellow/gold-ish. I didn't know much about betta genetics back then.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

The only person to breed a true gold betta, a deep pure 24 carat gold color, is Khai. The Interbetta "Super Gold" line doesn't look like it appears in the photo on Aquabid. They have the body of a pearl gold betta with the banana yellow fins of a yellow betta. The body color is almost a red gold, like the copper color you see on a new USA penny. Just looking at them, I would swear they used a dragon cross. The separation of the metallic layer in the body from the yellow fins is that distinct.

Bright yellow x pale gold --> pale yellow/goldish is *exactly* the result I would hope for! The F1 would be NR1/- and nms/+ with diluted opaque and steel. They should be mostly metallic (nms/+), so take light-bodied siblings with the least amount of opaque and cross them to regain gold (+/+). Then backcross to the F0 bright yellow and repeat selection. That way you can isolate the yellow iridescence in a clean background; doesn't even matter if the fish is yellow as long as the betta is +/+.

...I need a yellow betta. This sucks.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Senate Betta on Aquabid sells some amazing, bright and clean yellows. I have one of their fish, and she is absolutely lovely. Arnatbetta does as well - many of that seller's fish have the black scale edging, which while I doubt is useful for your project, is useful in certain other color combinations.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks hrutan  I've seen a few of Senate's yellows; they would be perfect. Arnatbetta has a couple males up on AB now, huge DT geno dorsals, but the tails are so short (potential DT x PK spawn?) And the black edging like you mentioned... I'll keep checking AB, may prowl around the LFSs this weekend too. There might be some better quality culls, though I'm not holding my breath on that!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Holy [censored] [censored]. 

This is exactly how Khai did it to get his intense golds. Found the original posts over on Joep's (Betta Territory) forums. 

Point for point:
1. Cross soft gold to yellow (Khai prefers NR1 over NR2).
2. Breed away from opaque and dragon (actively AVOID these crosses).
3. Suspects the presence of steel (blbl) in his line but did nothing to remove. Nms +/+ is bright enough to mask the steel.

Hot damn! Skip the petstore culls; it's time to import a yellow HM line. I know what I'm doing this summer.

Edit: Looking through Joep's spawn logs and found two gold crosses:
Here's Interbetta (Sonya) x Khai-based gold
Just look at the difference in gold intensity and metallic spread between the three parental lines!
And look at the seller photo versus Joep's photo of the Interbetta gold. That has to be a dragon cross. There's practically no metallic in the fins.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Can't say I care for the result of that particular cross, they look more opaque than gold. But it's good knowledge. So, the soft gold is...which fish? Can you give an example?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

If you go to the spawn log, soft gold would look like Iwon's male PK or any of the fish by Supinpong on the first page of this thread. From the looks of it, I believe the soft gold was developed from a platinum x copper. Khai's gold came from an unknown gold (see first page) x NR1, a mix of line breeding and out crossing to isolate the yellow iridescence on a yellow fish. Both traits act like recessives (not exactly but those are technical details), so are lost in the F1 resulting in a shiny, white fish. Amazing breeding lines, there's literally no contaminating colors. To regain and enhance the gold, you'd need to do a sibling F1 cross.

I sort of agree with you about the results of that spawn; it's not creating gold, but if you were going to create a completely new betta color, it's VERY intersting. In Joep's spawn, I think what happened with the red copper metallic color was due to crossing in the _mahachai_ traits carried by the Thai dragons with the nms (a _imbellis_ trait) carried by the metallic line. The opaque scaling that occurred could be a result of the dragon scale trait mixing with the opaque from the soft gold line. (Which has interesting implications about what the dragon genes are actually affecting!)

Since my goal is to recreate Khai's gold on a HM, I'm actually no longer sure my girls will work. If they are truly bred from the Interbetta line, I don't think it'll work. If they're from a soft gold line, then I'm safe. But, won't know until I try the cross. So, time to go stare at some ventral/anal fins and surf the web for a line of clean yellows with good form!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

More on the history of golds:

Walt Maurus about his work on Cambodians (Bettas: A Complete Introduction, 1993): 


> The development of the gold strain was an outgrowth of the cambodian-black cross. A few of the first generation were iridescent green, and a sparkle of gold was noted in the pectorals of some. A second generation (brother-sister) revealed both green and cambodian fry that grew to possess a golden shininess over their bodies and into the fins. The fins were primarily red, however. *Pectoral fins in some were solid gold. *Subsequent generations have reduced the red and enhanced the gold. An interesting sidelight is that the fry, when about two weeks old to one month old, look very much like little brass nails.


Is this the original "yellow" iridescence of _splendens_ as isolated from the Cambodian line? Does the original Cambodian line even exist today? This same line of genetics seems to be the basis for Pengdit (Bettaboy77)'s "Suthasine gold" from 2004-2007. If so, the _splendens_ yellow iridescence appears to refract at a more red gold/copper color, whereas the _imbellis_ yellow iridescence may favor a more yellow gold? Or is nms also a redder gold. Joep's Interbetta x Khai gold cross suggests red gold is predominant in F1.

Side note: Tamarlane (see avatar and journal) is remarkably similar to a Suthasine gold. The red gold/copper iridescence can be seen using a normal incandescent light bulb (see photo 1 in journal). He also carries opaque and NR1. I think it's time to start prepping him for the breeding tank.

Suthasine golds (1. on NR1; 2. on red; 3.-4. on opaque):


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

For the record, these are the two girls:
Samarkand









Bukhara









Yeah, let's do this. Game on.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

True Cambodian (Pale, "fleshy" (in a Northern-Euro-America-Centric way) body, crimson fins, and iridescence free) is quite rare ... in males. Female Cambodians still exist, but since the presence of body color is sex-linked, very nearly all males color up to red by 5 or 6 months of age. There is a lively effort ongoing to resurrect the strain.

Right now you're about as likely to find a high-quality Cambodian male that _stays _Cambodian, as you are to find a non-metallic true green. Vanishingly rare, but not impossible. I think I've actually seen more photos of greens than male Cambodians, actually...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

...blink, blink... There seems to be a logic problem in the Cambodian genetics.

If:
(1) the presence of body color is sex-linked; and
(2) the Cambodian trait is a single locus, recessive trait; and
(3) Cambodian females still exist

Then:
(1) the Cambodian mutation is an X-linked recessive genotype

Which suggests that the only way to get a Cambodian phenotype on a male (XY) betta would be through a rare random mutation where there was a recombination event that spliced an arm of the X chromosome on to the Y chromosome. A truly rare beast indeed. Potentially resulting in a feminized betta with a reduced ability to spawn?

Not so random thought: For the record, betta can naturally reverse their gender like some amphibians. Female betta were shown to flip genders in the absence of a male and naturally develop fully functional male reproductive organs that produced viable sperm. (Though behaviorally, I think they were less inclined to build bubble nests.) A masculanized female crossed to a normal female usually produces 100% female, but a few do actually produce male progeny. ...I have no idea how one would go about naturally masculanizing a female betta though.

Edit: Unless you mean Cambodian as a multi-locus phenotype where the only the loss of all color on the body is X-linked recessive. And when breeders refer to using it, they only mean the effect of removing black from the color?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm going to throw a huge wrench in the works.

Sex in betta fish, as in many other species of fish and amphibians, does not seem to be chromosomal. No paired chromosomes that control sex have been determined. In other words, sex of the fish is not predestined at the time of egg fertilization; there are more complex factors in play. This is what allows for sex reversal later in life.

I have two individuals in my current spawn that either...well, "Made up their mind" and matured late, or switched from female to male weeks after the advent of sexual maturity in the rest of the spawn. The vast majority of the spawn was female, which, environmentally, would make total sense in triggering a switch of some of the females to males.

Cambodian-based red appears to be carried by the father (the mother has the dark scale edging that indicates black layer is intact, in other words a "true red" rather than Cambodian based). Most of the spawn gained color in the typical Cambodian red-based fashion - red fins, pale body, with the body coloring up slower than typical for other color patterns. The males gained red body coloration first, the females did not gain red until several weeks later. 

Both of the individuals that I have in mind had visible ovaries and an egg spot when cupped. This morning, I just discovered the second one is now male - to my frustration, since he had been sold as female and I now have to find a suitable replacement. I don't have a before/after for that individual, but I do have a before/after of the other (photos below). The "male" photo is out-of-date by 2 weeks. He has grown a huge amount of fins and no longer looks like a bad plakat, but instead a proper long fin male.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aww, dammit, I didn't think anyone was going to call me on the XY classification; I was hoping to keep things conceptually simpler. I'm familiar with the differences between genetic sex determination and environmental sex determination. I should have said something like "female expression pattern" and "male expression pattern". 

Speaking of expression patterns, I'd like to offer a different hypothesis to fit the observations below.



hrutan said:


> Cambodian-based red appears to be carried by the father (the mother has the dark scale edging that indicates black layer is intact, in other words a "true red" rather than Cambodian based). Most of the spawn gained color in the typical Cambodian red-based fashion - red fins, pale body, with the *body coloring up slower than typical* for other color patterns. The *males gained red body coloration first, the females did not gain red until several weeks later*.


Not all mutations are gain-of-function mutations. What if this is a (dose-dependent) loss-of-function mutation in the red layer. Let's say red pigment takes 1 month to develop and accumulate enough to be visible in a wildtype red betta. Instead of hypothesizing that Cambodian is a mutated red that is only expressed in males, I suggest that the Cambodian mutation (c) delays the accumulation of red in both males and females, but because of environmental cues, expression of "c" is higher in females than in males. Resulting in females coloring up later in development than males. Which could also explain why Cambodian males turn red as they age, since the red pigment will slowly accumulate to normal levels.

This also suggests that the red Cambodian phenotype has at least three genetic components: (1) extended red, (2) dose-dependent reduction of red synthesis/accumulation, and (3) restriction of (2) to the body.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I wouldn't have called you on it, except that the second goober to throw a curve ball at me got me curious and I did a little research.

Now, I'll toss that back at you a little bit - first we'll have to have a reminder that it isn't necessarily "red" dependent, since a) there are Cambodians other than red, and b) Cambodian affects multiple color layers. Cambodian apparently has been traced to a recessive gene. If you haven't read the BettySplendens write-up for it, it's here:

http://www.bettysplendens.com/cambodian-bettas.html


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

It's a little frustrating that Bettas don't finally settle on their colors until around six months to a year in age. Most breeders sell their stock at around 3-4 months old, which is very frustrating for those working on specific traits. That cellophane or pastel you purchased could very well turn out to be a marble by the time you get it in the mail, if you purchased from overseas.

When I purchased Smirnoff, she was completely pale in body without a single hint of red. Now her face is becoming ruddy, and red is starting to speckle her body as if it were iridescence. With her reddening up, it's a bad sign that I'll have to take a longer time in trying to establish a good Cambodian line in my(and others') attempt to revive the Traditional Cambodian male, as Hrutan mentioned earlier.

However, it is an interesting observation and detail to have for future reference.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

First, TGIF! An enjoyable way to end the week. Thank you, hrutan and Nimble!

Second, Cambodian is a phenotype not a genotype; genetically speaking, there is very, very, very little chance that one gene can control variable patterns in multiple color layers. Specifically from Victoria's article, she says:



> The *light bodied phenotype or group of phenotypes *known as _Cambodian_ has been traced to a single recessive gene. ...*There are four important things that must occur for the 'ideal' Cambodian *betta to be produced: there should be no black on the black color layer, no red on the body on the red layer, no iridescence on the iridescent layer, and no yellow on the yellow layer. Therefore, *to produce a clean Cambodian betta with a solid, flesh-colored body you need to work with more than just to single gene that removes the black.*


I believe what she means is that the light body phenotype is due to one recessive gene. Not that the Cambodian phenotype (red fins, light body, no iridescence) is due to one gene.

To determine the genotype, I refer to work by Chris Yew in 2005. Here's an archived copy of his article on (re?)generating the Cambodian phenotype: link here. I don't know if his work was ever completed, but his genetics so far looks plausible. Good luck on the Cambodian project!


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

That _does _look plausible, and very interesting.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

To combine Victoria's work with Chris's, and _sprinkling in a bit of speculation on my part_, I'd propose the following genotype for the Cambodian phenotype:

Iridescence layer: 
none/clean

Black layer: 
Cambodian1 - a Cambodian-specific recessive trait that removes black from the entire body, currently referred to as "C/c" by breeders

Red layer: 
Extended red - classical _splendens_ red mutation
_Cambodian2 "slow red" - a Cambodian-specific delay in red synthesis and/or accumulation in body and fins
"Light body" - a female-linked, dose-dependent exclusion of red from the body (not specific to Cambodian)_

Yellow layer:
undefined yellow gene - not to be confused with NR1/NR2 in the red layer

I'll even speculate that the Cambodian phenotype is specific to the red coloration, the so-called blue or green variants arising from a different genetic background. However, yellow or orange Cambodians from NR1/NR2 could be generated.


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## BettaMas (May 10, 2011)

Hmmm... Interesting information about golds... I find it even more interesting the "conclusions" made on how I developed my golds, some which I myself didn't even know about!   LOL....

Sorry mods for commenting on an old thread. Stumbled upon it, and couldn't help myself from making a post.

Still, I would like to take this opportunity to thank those, especially indjo and Zhylis, for your praises and acknowledging my work on golds.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You do produce amazing golds. Just wished you'd share your secrets. Lol

Congrats for your amazing achievement


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