# Hard, Akaline, High ph water....Stocking?



## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

Hey everybody!

Might be re-stocking my 10 gallon 

I already posted a thread *on background info on my tank:*

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=117874


So what type of fish, besides a betta?


Thanks!


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## polukoff (Nov 23, 2011)

It's best to get your water tested at any LFS to know exactly what your dealing with.

Marbled Hatchetfish thrive in hardwater.









Paradise Fish









Gouramis, guppies, and mollies also do very well in hard water.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

They prefer soft male guppies are great fo hardwater.


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## polukoff (Nov 23, 2011)

That's true, based off their natural habitat, however they adapt very well to hard water. The Ph would never pose a problem I have Extremely High PH, no problems with any of my fish.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

An extremely high PH is 8.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

polukoff said:


> That's true, based off their natural habitat, however they adapt very well to hard water. The Ph would never pose a problem I have Extremely High PH, no problems with any of my fish.


Unfortunately, the OP has a pH of around 10. Most species that can adapt to hard water (like the gourami and marbled hatchetfish) won't do well in that high of a pH (as it's like crazy high for fish). Fish like that can only tolerate up to about 7.5 or 8. Usually pH isn't a large problem, but because it is so high in this case, it is a problem. 

MyRainbowBettaFish, have you considered cutting your high pH, hard water with pure water? Something like rainwater or RO? It will really give you a lot more options.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Most of the farm raised fish will adapt to your source water and you can usually keep them long term without any problems, however, if you get wild caught soft water species or if you want to breed soft water species-Then you would need to change the pH/KH/GH of the source water by using R/O or rainwater. 
Generally most fish you see at pet shops have adapted to the high pH and harder water than their native waters from years of being kept in the different chemistry-Most farm bred fish haven't been kept in their native chemistry for a really long time.

Do you know the KH/GH of your source water.
Your pH is 8-8.4 correct and this is after the 24h degassing without any additives-correct. You are using a liquid reagent type testing products and you don't have any type of water softening unit hooked up to the house that uses salt-correct....

With 10gal you are limited-what I would recommend-go where you plan to buy your fish and look at what you like. Find out if they are wild caught or farm raised and location reared/bred-_Most of pet shops get farmed raised fish from Florida or the USA and these fish are usually already adapted, however, there are some exceptions.....

_Then research-paying more attention to-adult size when fully grown, social needs, territory needs, food/feeding, temp ranges, compatibility and general tank size.
Since you don't want reproduction-I wouldn't worry too much about pH/KH/GH of your source water.

My well water-pH 8.8 with the KH/GH over 300-I call it liquid rock...lol...I keep soft water species without any problems, however, when I want to breed-I do have to soften the water by using rainwater-otherwise the eggs won''t hatch-but once the fry are roughly 4-6 weeks of age-I start using my hard water for water changes to get them adapted back to my well water. I have raised thousands of soft water fish like this over the years without any long term problems and they reach their expected longevity.

Do you plan on adding live plants.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I have heard of a cichlid that lives in a ph of ten.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

10 is way too high even bettas don't like that a guppy would die in that most fish in aquariums of a cut off of 7.5 to 8.0


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Danio erythromicron, like Thekoimaiden suggested in the previous thread would do fine in your water. 

Also there are a couple of pseudomugil species that will thrive in hard, alkaline water. Furcartus and connieae come to mind. But I believe gertrudae can also tolerate your water conditions.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Love your avatar new a few species could live in 10 never heard of your list thank you.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Also, where does the OP say their pH is 10? I'm confused. I was reading it as being. 



> HARD water with HIGH ph 8.0-8.4


Not 10.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I read another person say that but 8 is still very high.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

The pseudomugil species I listed (plus I forgot signifer)should do fine at a pH of 8-8.4. Furcatus and connieae do not do well in soft, acidic water. I believe I lost my furcatus because of my soft water as the tank was otherwise cycled and the other species in there were spawning.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I wish I had soft water I have 7.6.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> Most of the farm raised fish will adapt to your source water and you can usually keep them long term without any problems, however, if you get wild caught soft water species or if you want to breed soft water species-Then you would need to change the pH/KH/GH of the source water by using R/O or rainwater.
> Generally most fish you see at pet shops have adapted to the high pH and harder water than their native waters from years of being kept in the different chemistry-Most farm bred fish haven't been kept in their native chemistry for a really long time.
> 
> Do you know the KH/GH of your source water.
> ...



Thank you for everybody that posted 

Some of you might have read my ph wrong, *my ph is 8.0* with NO additives, but i do use tetra dechlorinator. I do not have anything linked to my house. Just regular tap-water.

Most of my local fish are farm-raised, yes 
My concern is though that all the fish from my LFS have died when i used to have them, and i thought it was my water parameters, but then again, it could have been my inexperience. 

i have had(not all at same time, i was inexperienced)
-danios
-neon tetras
-otos
-guppies
-mystery snail

ALL with no success except bettas.

So, i dont want to go down that path again, unless i can do it right 


My local Petsmart and Petco said most of their livestock is farm-raised.



OFL, i have never had live plants, but i would love to try them! 
I would like there to be sand in this tank...so i dont know....
since i would have sand, would pool filter sand work?
Could i add some MTS?


Thanks everybody, just want to do it right!:-D:-D:-D


*Casper, my HMDT is doing great, and like you all said, after 2 week, he marbled!!*


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Also, where does the OP say their pH is 10? I'm confused. I was reading it as being.
> 
> 
> 
> Not 10.


thats correct LBF 

I will look into those species, thanks


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Danio erythromicron, like Thekoimaiden suggested in the previous thread would do fine in your water.
> 
> Also there are a couple of pseudomugil species that will thrive in hard, alkaline water. Furcartus and connieae come to mind. But I believe gertrudae can also tolerate your water conditions.


LBF, sorry but what are the common names for those species?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry furcatus is forktail blue-eye, connieae is only known by that name I'm pretty sure and gertrudae are spotted blue-eye.

They will probably be harder to find in the US, since they are natives of Australia/Papua New Guinea. However, Wetspot off AB has blue-eyes in from time to time and I have heard nothing but good things from them if you are able to purchase from online. 

If you ask around on a planted tank forum you may also be able to find someone selling them as gertrudae especially seem popular in a lot of smaller tanks.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

they sound very pretty!

I just looked them up and they are gorgeous!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah I love blue-eyes. I had a whole tank with about 30-40 odd of them (I had several different species) and they make for a nice display. 

They look particularly stunning when the males are sparring. They put their fins up and the flashes of colour are awesome.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Yeah I love blue-eyes. I had a whole tank with about 30-40 odd of them (I had several different species) and they make for a nice display.
> 
> They look particularly stunning when the males are sparring. They put their fins up and the flashes of colour are awesome.


WOW! Maybe i can get them special-ordered....


do you know how expensive they are? Are they hardy and easy to care for?

How many could i fit?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Furcatus are fairly active so I'd probably only do maybe 4-6 of them. They are very similar to danios in behaviour to give you an idea of aggression and activity. 

Gertrudae are slightly more subdued and so you could probably house 6-8 comfortably in a 10 gallon tank. They do like some areas of heavy cover to retreat to, but once they have settled in they are generally fairly bold and mine all used to come up and nibble on my fingers when I stuck my hand in. 

This is one of the set-ups I had mine in (tank is a 15 gallon) and they thrived. 



















Here they are along with my rainbows eating some grindals. 

Like most smaller species, they can be a little fragile at first. However, if your tank is mature and cycled they should have no problems adjusting. Mine were hardy as heck and thrived in my large community set-up.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

your tank is gorgeous!

I will have to look into them.

Also, do you know of any other small schooling species i could do besides them? any tetras? I heard tetras wouldnt work.. but i am curious


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

While your tank size would be plenty for many of the micro species of rasbora and tetras, you are going to run into issues with your pH and alkalinity. Many smaller species that would be suitable for a 10 gallon tank, prefer neutral to soft water.

You may find a few exceptions such as the danio mentioned on the previous page, but you may also have to look at smaller cichlids such as shell-dwellers. 

Some fish can tolerate water conditions that are not ideal, but others will not do so well. 

A database like SeriouslyFish.com contains information on hundreds of species of fish. So perhaps trawling through there and finding something you like and that fits might be the answer.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

thanks!

Would rasboras work?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm only familiar with a few species of rasbora as my tastes run to different things. 

The ones I know of are sensitive and do best in soft/neutral water. However, you could try and see if a more commercially bred strain may do better since as OFL they tend to be a little less fussy than speciality and niche market species.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hasemania-nana/


http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/moenkhausia-sanctaefilomenae/

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/astyanax-mexicanus/

here's what i found

blind cave tetra?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Silvertip tetras I am familiar with. I have heard they can be slightly aggressive but I believe they are fairly hardy. 

Those red-eye tetras are going to grow too big for a 10 gallon tank 



> It’s a particularly active species and given its adult size deserves a tank of at least 36″ x 15″ x 12″ (90cm x 37.7cm x 30cm) – 106 litres.


The blind cave tetra seems to be the same species as this so it will also grow too big for a ten gallon tank.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I have moderately hard water with a PH of 6-ish and my espei's or lambchop rasbora are doing really good in there. 

What about endler's?


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i could do endlers....

how many could i fit? How do you tell if they are males?


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Endlers are basically the same thing as guppies. Males are even easier to tell apart tho because female endlers are very very dull. Here are some diagrams that will help you.

The biggest things that will help you are the gravid spot on the females (which they will probably have if housed with males) and the gonopodium on the males.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

thanks! Will they do good in my water parameters?

also, how many could i comfortably house?

I WANT SOME LOL!

they are so pretty!

I would prefer all males, would this work?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Endlers are less likely to eat their young.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

but i will have all males


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Good endlers are more jumpy too.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

well i have a tight fitting hood so i am ok, i do have bettas you know lol 

Thanks for the help!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Good sounds like great care but you will end up with endler guppy hybrids.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

thanks for the help!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Endlers are great I have a hybrid one.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

ChoclateBetta said:


> Endlers are great I have a hybrid one.


wow i cant wait! Can you post pics of yours?


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i have decided on a planted tank, with pool filter sand also


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Top three look like the one with the guppies. http://projectaquaria.blogspot.com/2010/04/cobra-tail-endlers.html


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

ooo pretty thanks! What type are the endlers with those bright colorations? Not the cobras..


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

The top one I think is wild type the avatar.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

They are so amazing!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I say the cobra one would look best.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

ok!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

But ypur choice not as many as guppies but tons of colors.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

how many could i comfortably house?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

7-10 I would say seven best more swimming room.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

wow! way more then i thought! I will go with 7  Thanks!


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd say 7 is a good number too.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I agree.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

well thats perfect!

Also, since i will be using pool filter sand(bigger grain than normal) can i use my HOB?


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

You can use an HOB with almost any type of sand. I put pre-filter sponges on mine and have never had a problem. Just make sure to wait and turn on the filter after the sand has been disturbed.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I prefer black sand but check for chemicals.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

yay!!


I am going to switch from gravel to sand in my already established 10 gallon with Honeycomb 

Could i add some MTS to mix the sand?


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i forgot to ask you guys:

since i want a schooling fish, 

are there any tetras that could work in my water? My LFS is close to my house and they supposedly use the same water i do


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

You don't have room for schooling fish and endlers in a 10 gallon tank. There are some that will work, but you'd need a larger tank.

It's not a good idea to base your fishkeeping methods on what you see in the pet store. The fish are there temporarily (or at least the store hopes), so they can subject them to more stress than they should have in a home aquarium. Just because the pet store sells them doesn't mean they will live long-term in your tap water.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> You don't have room for schooling fish and endlers in a 10 gallon tank. There are some that will work, but you'd need a larger tank.
> 
> It's not a good idea to base your fishkeeping methods on what you see in the pet store. The fish are there temporarily (or at least the store hopes), so they can subject them to more stress than they should have in a home aquarium. Just because the pet store sells them doesn't mean they will live long-term in your tap water.


i didnt mean together!

true...any tetras?


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

If your water isn't like liquid rock then some of the hardier tetra like Von Rio tetra (_Hyphessobrycon flammeus_), X-ray tetra (_Pristella maxillaris_), and Bloodfin tetra (_Aphyocharax anisitsi_) can adapt, but they might not be as colorful. They aren't tetra, but there are some shoaling rasbora that like hard water. My favorite is the Asian rummynose barb (_Sawbwa resplendens_). Beautiful little guy!


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I'm no expert but wouldn't something like Mopani wood lower the PH? The only tank I had issues with snails staying in their shells and eroding was the tank with the mopani. Finally I added shells and coral and it about a 7.2 or so the test strip says. Kinda hard to read but i have never seen a liquid PH test kit

The only type of filter that is a PITA with sand is the tetra whisper. If any gets into the impeller or whatever its called, it wont move. You need to rinse out the bottom part with the propellar thing to dislodge the sand. Then it will spin again.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Yeah and peat moss things in the Filter increases your options but endlers will work great remeber they love unicellar algae and the driftwood will work but endlers are a great idea try and get different strains.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

hmm 

well now i am considering the endlers or rummynose, although i will be honest, i am leaning toward the rummynose. How many could i comfortably house? 

just trying to weigh both my options


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i also just looked into cherry barbs and the rummynose barbs, and i REALLY LIKE both!


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Cherry barbs are really nice (I'd like them in a tank one day). The Asian Rummynose unfortunately needs a larger tank than a 10 gal. Despite their small size, the males are rather feisty, and they are active fish. Although you could keep the endlers in the 10 and upgrade to a 29 gal for the Asian rummynose. ;-)

Peat Moss and driftwood will only lower pH if the KH (buffering capacity of the water) is already low. Nothing actually lowers hardness aside from diluting with pure water (like distilled water or reverse osmosis water). Driftwood will lower it just a hair, but you really need a large piece to see a significant change. 

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/ Before you go around messing with water chemistry, you might want to read this article. It's written by a friend of mine with many many years of experience.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I am still for endlers they have great personalities and interesting color.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

thanks everybody! i *really* dont want to alter my water's chemistry.

I like the cherry barbs. Do they grow too large? If not, i will order some endler's.

*also, i couldnt get pool filter sand for honeycomb's 10 gallon(i was going to switch the gravel) so any petsmart/petco sand you reccomend that wont alter my parameters? Thanks*


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

http://www.petco.com/product/115883/Petco-Black-Aquarium-Sand.aspx I am pretty sure this is what I have.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i REALLY like that sand, Choc! 

I think i will go with that one, it looks like gravel in the pic...you sure its sand? Also, does it cloud the water easy or does it have a bigger grain size?

have you ever bought tahitian moon sand?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

It looks like sand to me I am pretty sure that is my brand.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

well then, done and done!

I like the white or black one hmmm..... i like the white better, but i will see the fish waste more..


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I feel black shows fish better.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

uggh i cant make up my mind! But yeah it would show their colors more..


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Like my Cories look great in black.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

oh yah! could you post a pic i would really love to see!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I wish I could I dont know how to upload it or take a good pic.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i can show you how to upload! I cant wait to get that ugly gravel out of there!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I dont like gravel either plants love sand.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

I am so excited! Maybe even if the future i can plant it for my barbs/or endlers!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I love live plants too espically Hygros,Swords, and Crypts.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

ooooooo i am so excited!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I am so excited for you getting into live plants is a great expeirence.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

thanks Choc! How nice of you! I know i have heard its a hobby all in itself 

I already have a marimo moss ball, that grew so much in my tank now i have 3 lol


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I love those they help get rid of evil algae.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

hehe i call them my alage monsters


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I am okay with green because many fish and animals love it.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

i am sometimes, but more or less, i am a bit of a control-freak when it comes to alage cleaning


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I am too I just beat a blue-green algae problem.


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