# 20g sorority NPT Journal



## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi, this journal is to help track the progress of my 20g NPT and hope that my little investment grows (literally!). 

After planting my 20g tank the first time with flourite as the substrate, pool filter sand as the cap, flourish tabs, sub par marineland LED lighting, and plants from azgardens.com (got totally ripped off.. don't go there), it kind of just survived for about four months and didn't really do anything. I was even treating it with flourish root tabs, Prime, Stress-zyme, and Excel. My female betta, however, has been thriving ever since being in the tank. I had a decent amount of plant death including; all frogbit, all duck weed, all corkscrews, all razor sword, my ulvaceus bulb was doing great but is now nearly dead (I suspect it has to do with something it goes through seasonally), and my dear red tiger lotus bulb which is BARELY holding on for dear life at the moment. So all in all after all the plant death, new substrate (got rid of the flourite) it was at least an $80 lose not including the new plants, substrate etc.

So moving on, I've just moved to CO and my tank's base got pretty messed up in the move... so I took the opportunity to re-base it, re-organize it, and replant it. I've since got better lighting as well, (2x 6500k CFL's) and lamps with a decent par rating. Now for some pix- 

I decided to go with Miracle grow organic potting mix this time becasue I've seen some seriously good result with it. 

One thing I noticed when cleaning out the flourite.. I did not use nearly enough substrate. I had maybe 1.25" max. I made sure to give it ~2" this time with a 1" cap of pool filter sand (still have that 50lb bag of sand).


Heater, lights, sponge filter, plumbing, and some furniture installed. I rearranged the Colosseum to better suit the light-plant coverage. I also closed the valve to the air stone in the Colosseum. I think another problem I was having was too much surface movement/aeration going on.

So down to the plants.. this time I made a $50 order from http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscentral.com. I saw them suggested on here pretty strongly, saw the discount we get for being members, and read up that the owner loves being extremely generous with portions ordered. I can say from first hand experience, this place is awesome and she was extremely generous with my order. I paid over $120 from azgardens.com ($40 just to ship and @ the time, I lived in AZ. again, do *not* buy from them) and got maybe half as many plants.

She shipped the plants wrapped in pink fiberglass (not shown), sealed in plastic (I mean *sealed* not stapled), and finally wrapped in newspaper. These plants were not going to arrive DOE.

My water sprite.

My Giant Hygro.

My Alternanthera, I only ordered 2 bunches. 

My razor sword. 

My dwarf lily bulb which is seriously sprouting. Just an FYI, that bulb is HUGE, at least half the size of a baseball!

My red Tiger Lotus-not with this order, but I just wanted to show how deep the roots were before I pulled it (nearly 3"!). As you can see the leaves keep sprouting and dying, but I wanted to note the roots. This guy was expensive and I really want him to live :-( I'm not sure what to do with him.

I also got a Marimo moss driftwood piece. Its relatively small but a nice addition.


Other plants put into the tank that survived include an Ulvaceus bulb (barely making it), Java fern (strapped onto rocks/the little fake wood hidey hole), Moneywort, and some smaller species of Hygro. 

So after five plus hours, I finally got the tank planted. I must say I'm satisfied with the results. I think I did a decent job with placement as well-



Thanks to Lilnaugrim, I made sure to plant my razor sword right this time among many other things she advised and helped me with. 


Like I said I'm planning on making this tank a sorority... Right now its only got my single female betta and 7-8 Nerites left over (2-3 got lost in the move. They just blended in too good with the flourite :|). I however feel much more comfortable, once its established, about adding more females to it where as before I felt there was not nearly enough hiding spots. My girl is having the time of her life right now hiding all over the place and yes, she goes in and out and sometimes stays in that little log on the right side of the tank lol. One thing I really regret not doing was washing out the miracle grow before putting it in. I don't know why I didn't (I even did it with the flourite) but I'm suffering the consequences now from little sticks/dirt floating up to the surface every now and then. The water is also a bit murkier than before but I am doing daily/every two day water changes for a while. I'm sure the balance and bacteria has been disturbed and it needs to go through its cycle again. I'll also need to aerate/poke the soil a bit now because I've got a lot more substrate than last time.

So pretty much that's where I'm at atm. I'm treating the water with prime since there is a lot going in and out daily, treating the water with excel every 1-2 days, and treating it with stresszyme every week for now. If any of you guys see any red flags with my NPT, things I should change, or any suggestions feel free to let me know. 

~Stealthlead


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Awesome! I'm definitely going to watch this thread closely because I'm planning on converting my 20g to a NPT sometime. If you want to make it into a sorority, let it grow in and cycle.


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## JayM (Aug 4, 2013)

That looks fabulous.


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

Can't wait to see it flourish! Subbing


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## Mashiro (Dec 2, 2012)

Very nice!

How many watts are each of those bulbs?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yay! Journals! How I love them haha

And as I've said before, everything looks great! I really enjoy looking at pictures with a step-by-step progress :-D

Okay, so one thing about your Water Sprite and I'm not sure why the lady did this, but Water Sprite is not a stem plant, it's a rooted plant like an Amazon Sword and stuff like that. But here she just cut them, leaving no crown for them to grow. Just wanted to warn you, they will eventually die but they should give off plantlet's before that time.

It should look like this though:


But otherwise everything is looking fantastic!!! :-D


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for the positive comments guys =)

The bulbs are each 13 watts. As for the water sprite that's how it came =s I didn't really trim much of anything.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah I know, that's why I find it weird so just keep an eye on it is all. It will take a while for it to really rot but it probably won't effect the water params too much at least. And you'll have new plantlet's growing off it in now time haha


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Alright a bit of an update here. A lot of the substrate has stopped floating to the surface which is pretty good. I aerated the tank pretty well today and did a full API test, here are the results - 

^My Ph sitting right around 7.8, as usual.

^My Nitrite at zero, which is how its always been.

^My NH3 levels are almost to 2.0ppm! Not good!

^My nitrate sitting at about 5ppm.

So obviously I went ahead and did about a 70% water change, primed and exceled the tank. I'll see how its doing tomorrow but I expect the nh3 levels to be bad for a while, a few plants are starting to die already like the water sprite as said, and the dwarf lily as I would think-

Considering the rooted portion will need to basically die and regrow again, at least that's how it was with my red tiger lotus. But all the red plants and giant hygro seem to be growing pretty well. My girl was a bit sluggish today and tended to stay towards the top, but nothing that would really raise my suspicion. The snails seem to be going to town and I've not seen a single one even pass the mid point of the tank which is supposed to be another good sign.


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Definitely subbing this!

Just curious, but do you read and/or watch _Claymore_? Your username is the same as a character from that manga/anime.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes that is exactly where my name is from! ;D! I'd love to read the manga but haven't been able to find it for a reasonable price yet. I could always read it online... lol.


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Phantom Miria said:


> Yes that is exactly where my name is from! ;D! I'd love to read the manga but haven't been able to find it for a reasonable price yet. I could always read it online... lol.


Awesome! Yeah, I've been reading it online  such a great manga!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yeah I know!! My female is named after the main character ^_^ !!


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Phantom Miria is one of my favorite characters too!


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## Rosencrantz32 (May 12, 2013)

lol Claymore wow... I had a friend who was buying that manga in high school. I can't remember how far into it we read... I've been thinking about it recently, though. Funny what pops up in a fish forum!! lol

Your tank looks really nice! I'm excited to see how it all turns out (and maybe learn something from your experiences along the way  )!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yeah, I am pretty crazy about Claymore. My favorite character has to be a tie between the main, Miria and Teresa. I'll probably end up naming another one of my bettas Teresa, whoever gets along best with my girl now =p

Anyways, A bit of an update. NH3 levels still get high every day, but at a decreasing rate- 


The dwarf lily has pretty much gotten past most of its death as expected. A lot of the red plants seem very healthy and to be growing, although that's hard to judge so early. The tank is pretty much aerated, not a whole lot of bubbles coming out now when I poke down. The substrate is pretty much done floating to the surface now as well. With all the plants I really feel like the tank needs a heavier bio-load. That and I want it stocked more lol.

All these tank changes are getting pretty old. Its not getting the water out that's the problem, its setting the big bucket of water on top of a crate on top of my bed to get gravity to feed it into the tank that is the problem (not to manage having to watch it like a hawk to make sure it doesn't tip). There's got to be a way to just pump it into the tank, how do you guys do it?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4587+24981&pcatid=24981

^that, you can let rest on the tank and put one end of the tubing into the bucket on the floor if the tank isn't too high and then the other end goes into the tank so it pulls up water and actually filters it more as it goes through as well and into the tank it goes! It's not super fast but it will help you!

I have a bucket that's roughly 3 gallons and I just lift it up and pour into the tank, I'm going to get one of those pumps one day though because my back is killing!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Not a bad idea, but 3.5GPH seems a bit slow to me  I end up picking up the bucket when it gets about half way and propping it on my shoulder to help feed it into the tank faster. I don't mind doing it, its just days like today after back day really suck, lol. I'll deal with it for now and stop bitching Xp


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## Mashiro (Dec 2, 2012)

I, personally, would much rather have something like this and completely do away with the bucket.

If only I could splurge on this....

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23755

"Ultimate GravelVac eliminates heavy lifting by using water pressure from your faucet to effortlessly drain and fill your aquarium. Simple operation of the Super Pump sink attachment and Manual Valve provides complete water flow control when removing or adding water to your aquarium. Durable plastic construction for corrosion-free use."


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh well yes, I would love an auto-changer as well but I don't feel like splurging on that haha and yes it does pump slow but it still works well.


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## Mashiro (Dec 2, 2012)

One day... >.>


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Lol I love how splurging on betta's is like a few hundred dollars versus other hobbies of mine... splurging on my car is like $2,000 LOL. 

But that does look like a good kit.. I might end up getting that or something similar down the line. I especially like the 'cleaning claw' aspect. My grrl is really curious and *always* goes up to my siphon like 'ooooh I wonder if I can get away fast enough before getting sucked up!!' I'm always like -.-


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I went ahead and did a tank change today. The NH3 levels were around .5ppm but that was after two days. While siphoning water out, I noticed some dark yellow/orange-ish liquid near the rear end of the Colosseum and a bit on the floor of it. I siphoned it out and noticed a dead snail behind the Colosseum (not sure if the two are related). The little guy must have climbed it and fell, like they like to do and wasn't able to get back on his feet. I wasn't able to see and attend to him sooner because the back kind of indents a little bit (which may have contributed to his death) and the substrate has mixed together a little bit with the cap, they blend in well with the substrate. I fished him out and covered the area with some sand which is now level and capped with the rest of the aquarium. So now I think I have six or seven nerites.

On a good note I have two female betta's coming in the next week and the local betta shop is getting me 3-4 CT's as well. The plants seem to be continuing to do fine as does my grrl.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yay females!!!! lol


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Not a whole lot to update, NH3 levels still a bit high, doing every other day/3 day tank changes. Clarissa has found her hang out spot under one of the giant hygro leafs -


Also I noticed something about one of the red plants today, it seems to be producing popcorn shapped bud things from where the leaf meets the stem -


Not sure what it is, but the plants seem to be doing really good. I think taking out the air stone was a good idea, I'm thinking of taking out the air stone in the sponge filter too.


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm pretty sure those popcorn buds are roots?
Idk, don't take my word for it xD


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

the little white things are roots, the buds coming off are just that; new plant stems will be growing there shortly ^_^


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

yay! :-D Good sign for the plants then I take it lol.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yup!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Wow, it seems like I'm either sitting around doing nothing or super busy! I finally got some really good work up here today and was out for a good 9 hours. Anyways, I have some very exciting news :-D First of all, I did a tank change today and found some weird semi clear spider web type of stuff at the bottom of my AQ. I did my best to vacuum it out, I can only imagine its some kind of algae or something that is forming around the plants. But what I also noticed was a SUPER huge leaf that belongs to my red tiger lotus bulb!!!!!!!!

I know its hard to see in that picture but my tiger lotus' leaves have never been over half an inch in size before dying. This leaf is like 3" long!!!! I think I have a good chance of my tiger lotus actually blooming which is one of my AQ dreams lol.

Anyways the news gets even better, I went to the AQ shop on my lunch and picked up four new young betta crown tails!!!!!!!!!!! They are all very healthy looking active and very playful - 

^This girl looks a lot like Clarissa. I'm still debating on a lot of names :3

^This girl is really pretty and looks like she will crown very nicely!

^This girl is a bet peculiar, she is a few different shades of grey and has quite a spiky dorsel fin, lol.

Okay I was planning on picking up three blue crown tails and I had already ended up with three that were pretty diverse (who wants all the same right? I was starting to realize this lol). But then I saw this girl starring right at me. I instantly melted and had to have her as well!! D:

The guy at the AQ shop must have thought I was a pretty big tard for squeeing at this girl but I couldn't help it lol. She doesn't have lipstick but I love the red she has on her crowns and she is just so pretty. The picture doesn't do her much justice =p

I have two more older female betta's that were supposed to come in the mail today as well but they haven't yet and I'm a bit worried =\ but other than that its been a great day lol.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Babies!!! Oh that cambo girl is definitely beautiful! Normally I don't like cambo's but I'm starting to have more appreciation for them since I just got one in the mail today lol

The lotus looks great!!! I'm super glad the NPT thing is working out well for you ^_^

Also I think the first two pictures of your girls are the same picture....


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Babies!!! Oh that cambo girl is definitely beautiful! Normally I don't like cambo's but I'm starting to have more appreciation for them since I just got one in the mail today lol
> 
> The lotus looks great!!! I'm super glad the NPT thing is working out well for you ^_^
> 
> Also I think the first two pictures of your girls are the same picture....


Opps lol you're right, this is the second girl -

She's got a really dark body but these nice vibrant fins, its cool =]

Yeah seeing that tiger lotus made my day lmao!! I'm getting some awesome growth in the npt with only a few plant deaths. Those red plants are rooting out everywhere now!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

They look great! Make sure to quarentine!


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Beautiful new bettas!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks guys!! 

More updates, been working my rear off but I still managed to do a tank change and all the individual cups for the grrls. First off I'll show some of the insane plant growth I'm getting (almost every plant is giving out roots from every direction!)- 

That is showing my dwarf lily which has showed some incredible growth. I thought it would kind of have to die first and re-root itself.. yeah it just grew like crazy lol.

Also my two remaining females finally came in from Lilnaugrim who I'd like to thank =] The first one is Asteroth-



She is a totally calm and chill grrl. When I had to pick her up for her much needed water change, she literally let me pick her up and didn't struggle at all lol!! She is really pretty =)

This next grrl is a really pretty yellow/orangish Veil Tail (I think, I'm not the best at ID'ing lol). I'm thinking of calling her Apple Bloom-



She is quite feisty but is very friendly and always looks right at me when I take a look into her cup =p She has really cute beady black eyes as well.

In other news after doing my tank change last night, I noticed Clarissa was acting lethargic, staying only at the surface and constantly gasping for air. I quickly checked the NH3 ppm and it was already at nearly 1.5ppm right after the tank change  I quickly scooped her out and put her into some fresh water back in her bowl. She's been sulking a bit and mad at me ever since I put her in there, but at least she's safe-


So basically I have this big aquarium that has nothing but snails in it and all my girls in a ton of cups on my Luna wine cooler-

I'm waiting for the NH3 to go down before I put Clarissa in but so far all the grrl's are looking very healthy and of course still a bit shocked which is understandable. I've been refilling there cups with water and treating them each with a drop or two of prime every day and they seem to be doing great.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

My ammonia levels are still ridiculously high.. all the time, even after water changes, consistently being from .5-1.5ppm. I think it must be the decomposition of some of the plants since it is still relatively new to getting planted, some are dying off, and some are getting some insane growth. I think it is specifically my Rotala looking plant (I can't remember exactly what it is) which is half dying, and half flourishing presumably from the re-planting. I'm thinking of pulling my girl out again just to be safe.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yay!! I'm so glad they made it safe! Yeah Asteroth was always a really chill girl lol, except for when she wiggled out of my hand, oh well! And that's a really cute name for the yellow girl! Love it :-D And yes both are female VT girls, Asteroth long finned and yellow girl is just normal with a tad bit of black pineappling on her sides.

As for the ammonia, yeah it's most likely just the plants dying off and all that jazz. As I've said before, NPT's are a pain in the butt to work with at first but after everything settles it's a breeze! So just keep on with water changes and hope it settles soon!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Your girls look great! I think the ammonia is fairly normal... The plants have to break down and the organics in the soil are decomposing too. You could add hornwort and floating plants like duckweed and water lettuce to suck some of the ammonia up.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

The two new girls have been really warming up, of course they seem to be sick of there little containers (I would be too) but they are so excited every time I come over to them, especially Apple Bloom lol  Asteroth's fin is healing really well and they are both eating a TON of food, they are literally scarfing it down in seconds lol. The other three girls are still a bit scared and hesitant to eat but are starting to warm up. When I feed the cambo girl she attacks the food, its really cute lol. I've really got to think up some good names :s

I did a serious water change and tank clean last night. I discovered a bunch of rotting plant hidden in a patch of moneywort, the red plants and the dwarf lily. I siphoned out probably an entire cup of rotting/decaying plant and clipped off a lot of dead plant (still have a ton of more growth than death, everything is rooting). I think a lot of this might have been responsible for the NH3 level. I got the new water in, let it sit for a few hours, did another test and this time I compared it with tap water. My judgement has been a bit off with the coloring and it looks like I have no NH3 at the moment.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's great about the tank! Was it the Alternanthera that died? Mine just died, stupid plant lol. I really like the way it looks though so that was unfortunate.

Yeah they're little piggies they are! I'm glad they settled in very quickly, and Asteroth's tail is healing still :-D They're all young so their fin regeneration period is super quick!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> That's great about the tank! Was it the Alternanthera that died? Mine just died, stupid plant lol. I really like the way it looks though so that was unfortunate.
> 
> Yeah they're little piggies they are! I'm glad they settled in very quickly, and Asteroth's tail is healing still :-D They're all young so their fin regeneration period is super quick!


Are you kidding!? That Alternanthera is growing faster than the US debt! None of that stuff has died and all of it is rooting out from all directions, I love that stuff. The dead plants were in between a few clusters, and the moss log, specifically this one (old picture)-

And its that tallest plant that has thinner looking leaves, its the only plant name I can't remember. Some of it died off because it was in the AQ before I rescaped it, but a lot of it is growing back. I just had to move the plants around to find piles of dead leaves hiding in a few areas, and this time I wasn't afraid to siphon up the weird cobweb stuff on the bottom either. 

Haha little piggies xD!! I always feed them first and before I'm even done feeding all the other girls they've already gobbled up there meal, I'm like :shock:Apple Bloom always freaks out when I picked her up and jumped out of my hand for a second too, lmao so did Tessa which is what I'm calling my Bluish/Purple Ct girl :-D I'm getting a lot better at picking them up though.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh is it the Water Sprite or the Water Wisteria?

Yeah my Alternan. didn't like the current apparently :-/ died immediately in my 33 which is just weird....no clue.

Yeah just try not to pick them up ALL the time since you are taking off a bit of their slime coat but only for a moment should be fine. You can alternate picking them up and pouring them into a net over a bucket and them putting them in the new water.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Water Wisteria!! That's what it is. It wasn't bought with the package I currently have and wasn't doing so well when I put it in. Its got tons of new growth now but that and a few other plants like some of the water sprite has died. I'm sorry to hear about you're Alternanthera  Its a really pretty plant, I love them. I've got almost no current in my tank.. just the one air stone in the filter, and I'm debating taking that out too. I feel confident I could try frogbit out again. 

I just pick them up for a few seconds on daily water changes but I can start netting them. I figured I'm messing with there slime coat a little bit, so I was actually wondering that myself.

Also I just noticed my Red Tiger Lotus literally great another few inch's over night.. one of the leaves is now about an inch from the surface :shock: This growth is almost scaring me, it went from a germinated bulb with 2 less than half inch dying leaves to an insanely huge flourishing plant with 3"+ leaves now. Its growing even faster and bigger than the Red Dwarf Lily!!! The substrate really was the problem, this Miracle Grow mix is literally growing miracles lol. I'm so ecstatic because my $10 plant isn't dying lol!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

lol well I'm glad your Miracle Grow is giving you miracles!! That's always an important thing XD


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

How many watts of light are you running?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I believe he's got the 9 Watt 6,500K CFL's in the two clamp lights, could be wrong though lol


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

First page - 


Phantom Miria said:


> The bulbs are each 13 watts.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

So I've just noticed that my female CT #3 is nearly identical to Tessa in coloration, size, and I think they might be from the same family. CT #3 has a bit darker body so I think Teressa is a fitting name for her especially to compliment my first girl  now all that's left is the grey girl...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh that's right, and you switched down to 5,000K right? sorry >.<

Oh I just looked at your signature and I love that all your snails are named Gary! haha, that made my day XD


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I haven't changed the lighting at all since I got CFL's  they are dual 6,500k 13 watt CFL bulbs in lamps with decent PAR rating from Lowes. The lighting was part of the problem versus back when I was using Marineland LED's, but ultimately the substrate was the problem because I had the CFL lighting even when I was using flourite for at least a month. 

I can't figure out what to name the grey girl! She is a bit of a loner and looks different from everyone. She reminds me of... me! In other news the Tiger Lotus is still growing. An entire leaf grew out of the tank as of last night.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

OMG I came up with the best name for the grey girl. Derpy Fins!


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

Loving this! Subscribed!  I just wanted to let you know that I have the same Colosseum, and it's now COVERED in algae, and the paint chips off every once in a while. I'd keep an eye out for floating chips if I were you, just to be safe


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks!! =) I got the Colosseum for $15 off of CL. I drilled a few holes in the top so water can more easily pass through. Its been in service for what I estimate over a year and I've never had any paint chipping problems. I'll keep an eye out though!

All of my girls are eating normally and looking very healthy, but most are getting very bored being in the little Tupperware containers. It kills me to see them in there but its for they're own good. One girl is the exception though; every time I walk over, Apple Bloom is ecstatic to see me and stares straight at me the entire time and follows me. Its so cute!!

My NH3 level has been at zero for the last two days! My tank floor is getting pretty grimy though. The dwarf lily and Tiger Lotus are now taking over my tank. Just to give you guys an idea, the Tiger Lotus' biggest leaf is now 6" long (Not a typo xD)! I'll get pictures soon!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

My NH3 levels are zero for the third day in a row! Misreading the coloration of the test tubes was the main problem for me but once I started comparing it to new water it became a lot easier to tell. I'm going to start acclimating the girls to the AQ water now.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

woohoo!!! Apple is so adorable! She used to do that to me too ^_^ Asteroth just didn't give a care! And Derpy Fins is awesome! lol Does she have yellow eyes too? Because that would just be the best! :-D

Glad your NH3 is still reading zero! That's a good thing!!!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes Apple Bloom is really the best tempered even in her small cup! Last night I was doing water changes and I found a way to cup enough water in my hand so that most of the time the fish don't even know they've been cup swapped until they are in they're new cup. Its really funny some of them seem really confused like 'what just happened ?' Apple Bloom didn't struggle at all but once again Asteroth jumped out of my hand onto the cloth -.- I only do changes by hand every two days or so but I didn't have a lot of time last night.

Lol that would be awesome =p I'm not sure what color eyes she has tbh, she is really tiny still and she likes to keep to herself.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Finally the weekend lol! Have some time to take a few pictures and update a little bit. A few white spots have formed on a few of my plant leafs. They don't seem to be growing or reproducing so I doubt they are harmful, but here is a picture - 

Maybe snail eggs? They seem to be on my red plants only. There has also been some kind of substrate looking deposits forming on the top of my cap every other day or so- 

I don't think either one is harmful but more so just the tank pretty much forming its own system. I mean I have live plants in there, its not going to be crystal clear right?


Other than that here are some pictures of the growth I've been getting! 

Lets play find the Betta!! She literally gets lost lol.


"Here I am!!! !"

Lots of overcast cover for the girls that will be dropped in pretty soon.

The girls themselves are getting really sick and depressed of being in they're cups =\ I feel really bad for them and they are becoming a bit sluggish and notably sad. Asteroth is a plain out rebel and jumps out of my hand every single time I do a tank change and struggles in the net. Derpy Fins gets really hostile and scared when I change her out. But Apple Bloom still has a great attitude and is always happy to see me and lets me change her right out every time. I love that lil fish lol. And of course Clarissa is living the dream having that entire 20g tank and all the coverage to herself lmao. I often times can't even find her anymore !


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

They look like nerite eggs! They probably won't hatch 'cuz it's fresh water tho.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Gary's getting lucky!!! ;D!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

lol yeah, I agree they are snail eggs! ^_^

lol, Asteroth only jumped that once from me, every other time she just sat there though. She is a rebel though, that I knew from the get go! I mean, she was in a tank with all males surrounding her at the store, the males in breeder boxes of course so she was the only one in the actual tank and whew, she was flare crazy in there! lol, she's such a cutie though. How's her tail doing?

Apple is cute too, she never gave me any trouble even when she was in the tank, never nipped anyone and they didn't nip her so it was good all around :-D

Tank is looking amazing!!! Did you get new water sprite?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> lol yeah, I agree they are snail eggs! ^_^
> 
> lol, Asteroth only jumped that once from me, every other time she just sat there though. She is a rebel though, that I knew from the get go! I mean, she was in a tank with all males surrounding her at the store, the males in breeder boxes of course so she was the only one in the actual tank and whew, she was flare crazy in there! lol, she's such a cutie though. How's her tail doing?
> 
> ...


It figures, those snails appear in the weirdest places. I don't know how they scale some of those plants but always hang out on the tops of plants like they conquered the place or something lol.

She is totally a rebel, but I love her for that aspect, shes like me =p and her fin wasn't exactly horrible to begin with when she got here, but here's an update-

"Oh you want me to pose? Here's my good side;"

It seems to be doing good though! I treat her with SC every day when I do the cup changes. I don't like to play favorites because I love all my betta's but Apple Bloom is just so adorable lol, she is always happy! I'll get home from a bad day of work and I swear she gives me a look like 'its ok, tell me all about it.' 

Thanks for the comment about the tank! I am totally confident there is more than enough coverage for everyone. Pretty soon I'll have extra clippings of plants! As for the water sprite, its all the same sprite that came with my original order. However, it has been specifically growing and rooting out all over the place! A clump of it on the right side of my tank behind the hidey log has literally turned into a mid-tank root field LOL!

Oh and I forgot to say there is still 0ppm of NH3. I'm confident in saying my tank is cycled and safe now, I haven't had to do a water change out of NH3 fear for at least a week. I still do changes to keep water levels up and murkiness down.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yay, Plant clippings!!!! My favorites ;-)

Oh good, her tail is getting so nice again! I hope she keeps it like that, I'm sure she will though because it's easier IMHO to start them off all together than adding them in later on....well...sooner than the 2 weeks at least....:roll: whoops. I know lots of people like to just float them for like a day or so for the new girl to get used to the older girls but I still like the two week period, it's like a mini time out and they get really calm by the time they go in and everyone is all used to each other that there is never really any issues. It's when you add them in sooner that there are more issues with hierarchy, but that's null and void for the first batch of girls to go on. I got my girls all from the same place except my first one; Mystique from PetCo and they all went in the same day, not really any issues. Just some flaring and that was it 

Don't worry, I have my favorite too ;-) Cherry is just sweet as pie and hence her name! She's still super tiny too compared to her first sisters  Even Little Blue is bigger than her now! :shock: LB used to be my tiniest girl for a long time and suddenly; growth spurt!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes she seems to be healing along nicely, she's still a little rebel though lol. I would have loved to float them but there is literally no room in my tank with the Colosseum (which btw now has moss growth on it) and especially with all the plant growth. And I also didn't want the light shining right in the girls faces in the cups, because should they want shade they would have nowhere to go. Keeping them in the cups on my wine cooler seemed like the best option, and by now they are all used to the AQ water I've been doing the changes with. Interesting to hear about you're sorority, glad there wasn't any serious fighting or nipping. I'm hoping for the same!

I am curious to see how the hierarchy works with this sorority considering I've got half of them that are more than double the size of the other half (the babies bought from the local store). I am also very excited to see these little babies grow, I think they will grow up to be very pretty especially my cambo girl (I love CT's if you can't tell, lol ((but strangely enough Apple Bloom is my fav >.> shhh))). Speaking of which, Clarissa seems to still be growing a bit.. I've noticed her anal fin is turning a really pretty color of blood red.

I can totally see some of these girls getting huge.. it happened with my main girl, she was teeny then bam I woke up one day and was like :shock: she gained a pound over night!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh I know, that's why I mentioned that it doesn't work well for the first drop but if you were to add girls in, it's easiest for them all if they were floated for the 2 weeks is all ^_^

And yeah, I'm betting that Apple Bloom will get PK sized just like my Pineapple girl who is only third largest next to the twins Aurora and Stardust. I can't tell who is Alpha now though, Mystique just sort of...chills, not that I mind but it is interesting to see the trade off's sometimes. I want to say that Aurora is Alpha but I just can't be sure, of course it'd be easier to talk but...yeah lol

But yeah, all six of my original girls minus Mystique were tiny little things and now 6 months later they're full grown and HUUGGGE...minus Cherry lol poor girl XD She does well on her own though. Aurora and Stardust are PK so it was expected, but Pineapple is VT, probably some Giant gene or PK gene in her to make her so big though and then Little Blue and Cherry are just regular VT's.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Alright so I added the girls in a few days early yesterday because I knew I had a three day weekend and I would be extremely busy during the week. They are all healthy and none of them seemed excessively violent so I went ahead and did it. I dropped them in one by one and everything seemed to be going great, the younger baby-ish girls are super fast (Elly, Derpy, Tessa, Teressa) and can get away from the other three big girls (Clarissa, Asteroth and Apple Bloom). So some of the chasing that happened lasted no more than five seconds, because the little girls would just swim away between plants and leave the bigger girls huffing and puffing.

So then after I added in Asteroth, the major problems started to arise. Asteroth and Clarissa (my oldest, biggest girl I've had since October 2012 who has been in this 20g for months) faced off. Clarissa has a huge body, huge chest and is a CT, and from what I've read CT's are supposed to be the more violent ones. They flared like crazy for the first bit, which I found pretty hilarious (I've never seen girls flare like that) but then they started body slamming, fin nipping, and doing some serious fighting. Apple Bloom fought for maybe a few minutes to establish herself I guess, then stopped. Clarissa and Asteroth were constantly fighting, and it was only getting worse. At one point little Elly tried to have her say in the fight, but Apple Bloom kind of gently pushed her out of the fight, as if she was saying 'you don't want to get involved in this!!' lol I love AB. Anyways Asteroth seemed to be playing mostly defense and Clarissa was really, well, being a bitch and kept attacking her. I took the initiative to separate them after 15 minutes of serious fighting and separated them both from the tank.

After about 30 minutes I reintroduced Asteroth because it seemed she was playing the less aggressive role. Her and AB faced off, and I think AB claimed the alpha, but it was just topical fighting, nothing bad at all and everyone was getting along without Clarissa in the tank. The smaller girls chase each other but it seems more like playing around than anything. At one point Tessa and Teressa bit each others mouths and stayed stuck for like 5 minutes, LOL it was quite hilarious, but they are best buds now (I'm pretty sure they are related).

I tried putting Clarissa in after a few hours. The fighting was even worse this time and she was clearly attacking an already injured Asteroth at this point, and its only these two fighting. AB would occasionally spectate and flare, but not get involved. After a serious attack by Clarissa I literally watched her bite almost the entire ventral fin off of Asteroth and I was really pissed at this point because here is poor Asteroth just trying to defend herself and I had just healed up her fin. I pulled Clarissa out immediately after this and (felt like throwing her out the window, never been so mad at a betta) put her in a cup where she's been floating since last night. 

I'm planning on reintroducing her within the hour and really hoping her aggression has calmed down. She took damage to only one of her crowns on her anal fin but nothing at all compared to Asteroth, as you can see 

I had a hard time getting pictures of her, she's having the time of her life now that she isn't stressed out exploring the tank

She was a bit sad :c She had the vertical stress marks and closed all her fins up which is a bad sign, but a while after Clarissa went she become more playful and the stress marks went away.

Other than that all girls are getting along and absolutely loving the tank. The smaller girls are really friendly to each other, Elly is kind of a loner but is a lot more happier. Its hilarious sometimes when Asteroth comes up to Apple Blooms area of the tank (she kind of has a territory) AB just give Asteroth this look like the Fluttershy stare and Asteroth swims away SO fast LMAO!! They don't fight at all though. I'll post how it goes reintroducing Clarissa =\


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah I thought that was going to happen. I was lucky that I only had Mystique in the big tank for a week or so but since Clarissa has been in there for a lot longer, you should keep her out for another week or so. I really wouldn't risk it, let Asteroth heal up first and then see how things go. Clarissa has already claimed her tank as her own and it's just going to get worse if you put her back in too quickly. She's definitely one of the ones that I'd float for another two weeks.

Or you can get a breeder box so that you don't have to worry about changing the water but they'll still stay separated. Best to get a very clear container, not anything frosted so that they can all clearly see each other. At least Asteroth is a quick heal though.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I re-added Clarissa before I saw you're post. There was a final fight between her and Asteroth that I had to spectate to make sure it didn't get out of hand, but with some careful netting separating and time to get the aggression out, Asteroth backed down and started to run, and there was a bit of chasing but it subsided. It looks like Clarissa is going down the chain now and chasing everyone around and establishing herself as the hardcore Alpha by far. No one is flaring or putting up a fight and she hasn't had to flare at anyone either so I think this may work out. Her and Asteroth seem to be flaring at each other from time to time but Asteroth flee's now before its gets violent and before there is any fin nipping. If anymore nipping occurs I will absolutely pull Clarissa out for a few weeks.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, yeah as long as you can catch it before anything else bad happens. You can always pull Asteroth as well to let her heal up more and when she goes back in she'll just go right to the bottom of the chain but that's up to you.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

If I pulled Asteroth and let her float while treating her for her fins are you sure she'd be at the bottm? She is definately either 2nd or third. Because my line of thought is alright, if they just established a chain there shouldn't be much more super aggressive fighting and she can heal while still being in the sorority versus if she healed up in a cup and then went back in she might just get torn up again.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, either she'll go right back to second in command without any fighting or she'll go right to the bottom. I've done it before with Mattie and Lady. Lady didn't go to the bottom but went to 5th or 6th but there was no fighting involved, the lower ones just let them in sort of. I don't remember any of my girls that I pulled out for to heal or treat going back in with ripped fins. Usually it's only initially that it happens, but as I said it's up to you.

Generally if they're pulled and they go back in, they'll just go back to the position they were in with only minimal flaring generally but not too much actual fighting. But that's just my experience, it's not true for all sororities so just keep an eye on them is all.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Lol its hard to tell but they seem like best buds now, when I come up to the tank they both come up to me and kind of wiggle around and follow each other for a little while. Its not chasing and they aren't flaring anymore so I'm not sure what the deal is but they seem a lot more friendly to each other. Everyone other than that is getting along well so I guess it was a success. I'll definitely keep an eye on them and pull someone if its necessary but it looks to be pretty good from here hopefully.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh good! Yeah, female Betta's are weird haha. Some would agree they are nearly as confusing as human females ;-) lol! I'm glad though, hopefully they stay like that and decide not to kill each other >.<


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hey guys,

I've been super busy working full time and getting ready for my game in Wyoming, etc. Anyways, a bit on an update on the growth -


Its looks like lilypad city!


I'm doing once a week 60-70% water changes but the tank really needs no maintenance or conditioners at this point. As for the girls- I wish they would just get along >:l Clarissa likes to nip and chase the others around while feeding. I've since learned to spread out food so she has her own little spot I can feed her and keep her distracted. Clary, Elly, Apple Bloom, Derpy, and Tessa are adamantly eating up anything I drop at them. Asteroth is really starting to scare me though, she hasn't eaten for at least 9 days! She goes up to the food and either just turns back or gets chased off by the big girl. She's showed no signs of sickness, sluggish behavior, gasping, etc. she acts normal but just isn't eating. If it keeps up I'm going to pull her out of the tank and treat her in a cup. As for Teressa, half the time I get her confused with Tessa (they *have *to be sisters) so I think they take turns surfacing and eating, its tough to tell lol.


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

All I can say is WOW! That tank looks FABULOUS! I might have to get myself some lily pads... >


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks!! =] I'm waiting for my Red Tiger lotus to flower and maybe bulb off. That's pretty much my biggest AQ goal I have left!


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

Oh that would be so pretty! Have the girls decided who the alpha is yet?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ummmm yeah, bottle ALL the growth your plants have a send it to me PLEASE! lol

After seeing your beautiful lily I had to get one for myself! Whew, the bulb is huge :shock2: wasn't expecting that lol, but so far so good! Your pads look amazing!

And don't worry too much about Asteroth, all Betta's can survive a month or so without food. Yes it's not that healthy but they won't die if they don't eat. Now if she wasn't eating and she was bloated like bad, then yes I'd be worried. Have you tried frozen foods at all? I know she nearly killed me for frozen bloodworms lol well actually they all do XD They attack the tweezers and jump at it as soon as it get's near the water! Best thing ever, especially to watch in the sorority :-D


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Clarissa is by far.. she's a big bully lol. Its cute though, when I come up to the tank she does her little wiggle dance for me and if any other girls come up to the front she nips them away like she's trying to keep me all to herself xD!!

Apple Bloom is definitely Betta (lol). When I remove Clarissa she gets pretty territorial!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Ugh I can't wait till mine fills in!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Just don't give up! :3


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

You should get some pics of your girls in here! So we can see how they've changed


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I know! Your journal is good motivation.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Had a chance to finally do the long needed tank chance.. was a rough week for my ladies ran out of food a day ago and the water got pretty dirty =\ everyone seems healthy and active however! I have WAY to much plant growth and had to clip off a few plants that were growing out of the tank and decided to plant my little fish bowl - 

I'm thinking about rescuing a few males from the local petshop. Every time I go in they beg me to save them and I feel so bad!! !


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ohhh it looks nice! What plant did you put in there?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Elsewhere said:


> You should get some pics of your girls in here! So we can see how they've changed


I will try but it is a lot harder than you think to get pictures of these girls! Clarissa always knows where to be, she's my girl lol always up front doing her little dance for me and nipping anyone else away. Apple Bloom always comes up front when I come over she's so adorable! I just smile everytime I see her beady black eyes =p She's usually hiding under a big leaf. Asteroth is a bit anti social but is getting better and I finally saw her start eating again yesterday. She likes to hang out on the bottom of the Colosseum. She still looks totally healthy as well. Little Elly likes to play with the big girls, its quite hilarious she comes up while Clarissa is feeding and steals some food and, knowing she is smaller and faster, taunts Clarissa and flee's lmao! 

The other three girls I always have an extremely hard time finding and they look very alike. You have to understand I basically have a monster planted tank now :shock: Derpy Fins likes to surface really quick and constantly explores. Honestly Tessa and Teressa are usually nowhere to be found but generally in the same proximity when I can find them. These two HAVE to be related. I haven't seen Tessa for a few days though and am a bit worried to be honest, lmao. Not a whole lot of noticeable growth has been going on with the smaller girls, there fins are developing just a tiny bit but it will be some time before they really gain some size.

The plants in the bowl are the red plants I think. The plants are already regrowing.. surfacing out of the tank. Its really awesome but I need to start up another tank or something which is another reason I'm considering rescuing a few guys from the local pet shop. They have the look of "PLEASE TAKE ME HOME I BEG YOU!" on they're face everytime I go in, it drives me nuts >.<! I also had to trim a ton of the Red tiger lotus and Dwarf lily pads out because they were literally blocking the entire tank from light and my ability to feed the girls! I'm also thinking of getting some Otto's to help maintain all of the stuff on my AQ floor, I think they could do a lot of good for the tank.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm sorry I've not been around lately and not had time to comment or check out some of you're guys' journals! I've been working my hooves off and finally got my season snowboard pass. Anyways, I never forget to do a weekend tank inspection/cleaning/water change. I probably trimmed out 10 leaves that were all 6" + in size! I got really sick of not being able to see my girls because all the lily pads were covering them and it was having an adverse affect on they're feeding. I found a bunch of creepy looking (what I'm calling) under water spider webs all over the heater and Colosseum, it was kind of freakin me out. I siphoned them out and put some sand down on an exposed part of the substrate which I think might have been causing it, not sure. I'm suspecting having a school of Otto's might help with the weird growths etc. on the floor.

Anyways, the girls are doing really well, a lot of the younger girls crowns are coming in! I got some great pictures of Elly while she was sleeping!


That's Derpy sneaking up on her from the bottom xP you might not be able to see but Derpy changed colors to a really pretty purple-ish.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hey guys, it was a really tough stressful week. It snowed pretty hard on Thursday and I got stuck on the way home  I made it out, but barely fishtailing all over the place. Here's a pic- 

The worst part is that literally as soon as I got home from work the power went out. I wouldn't normally be concerned but it was getting to be nightfall and it was getting REALLY cold in the house and I was really worried about my girls. I have a backup electrical generator for my computer in the case of a blackout and I quickly moved it over to my girls and hooked it up to they're tank. I made sure to keep them warm all through they night so they wouldn't freeze or get stressed out. It got pitch black and after six hours around 9:30 pm the power came back up. Other than that, normal tank change just now and aside from a few of the squirts getting curious about the siphon (again, Derpy >:l), everything is going great with the tank. Normal clipping of 5+ lilly pads weekly so awesome growth still.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Holy cow! Yeah, I'm glad we don't have snow yet! The one part of winter that I dread :-( My truck can barely drive in rain without slipping all over the damn road, it really sucks in snow! I'm glad you made it alright though!

In the event of another power outage and you don't happen to have the generator for the tank just pile blankets on top of the tank and keep them around. They keep the heat in the tank for quite a while actually. My old shrimp and Gouarmi made it through a three day power outage during this past January in the Nemo Blizzard. So that's something else you can do as well


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

What part of Colorado?


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

I just read your entire journal, I love it. I am getting excited about getting plants so watching your whole process has been inspiring. As for Otos i say get them, I love them. Mine usually don't have to be fed they just eat the algae off the glass... mine took about 7 months to actually swim around during the day... for months I thought they had died so don't be surprised if you "lose" them.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Lilnaugrim, thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely do that the next time the power goes out which I'm sure will happen a few more times.



dramaqueen said:


> What part of Colorado?


Durango, just barely past thew NM border and six hours from Denver. I may barely be in Colorado but the winters here get really brutal from what everyone has said. I'm counting on it though as I came here to snowboard ;-)



katrina89 said:


> I just read your entire journal, I love it. I am getting excited about getting plants so watching your whole process has been inspiring. As for Otos i say get them, I love them. Mine usually don't have to be fed they just eat the algae off the glass... mine took about 7 months to actually swim around during the day... for months I thought they had died so don't be surprised if you "lose" them.


First of all thank you so much for taking the time to read my entire journal!! I'm definitely planning on getting some Otto's soon, totally crossed my mind  I've seen vid's of them eating off the glass, they are really cool lol. I'm really glad my journal can get you excited and inspire you!! That really means a lot! You just can't give up haha.

Like I said I'm planning on adding some Otto's and a few more CT girls someone on the forums in breeding for me. I'm also going to start up either a 5 or 10 gallon tank with a split most likely for two boys. I have more than enough plants to fill a tank and I really REALLY want to rescue a few of these boys at the local pet shops. It makes me so sad and my heart sinks every time I see them with they're fin rot and nasty water conditions


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

Make sure to get plenty of them, because I only have two and I still have to clean some algae off the glass. And thank you for having information for me to get read and get excited about! I've been kind of obsessive about my tank lately with very little funds to actually "add" to the tank haha... so I am living vicariously through you.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I actually don't have any algae that I know of (I'm sure I do but can't see it). My glass has always been crystal clear.. in fact I was just noticing that this morning, lol. I'd most likely have to supply them another food source as well which is fine. And of course! If I can even help one other person out or inspire them then that makes the journal and everything I've done worth it. As for cost, the plants are the biggest investment (besides the betta's maybe). I got all my plants here - http://www.plantedaquariumscentral.com/ which is by far the best and cheapest place I've bought from. I have a lot of expensive hobbies, but one thing I love about betta keeping is once everything is in place, you really don't have to keep investing other than fish food.


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

Phantom Miria said:


> I actually don't have any algae that I know of (I'm sure I do but can't see it). My glass has always been crystal clear.. in fact I was just noticing that this morning, lol. I'd most likely have to supply them another food source as well which is fine. And of course! If I can even help one other person out or inspire them then that makes the journal and everything I've done worth it. As for cost, the plants are the biggest investment (besides the betta's maybe). I got all my plants here - http://www.plantedaquariumscentral.com/ which is by far the best and cheapest place I've bought from. I have a lot of expensive hobbies, but one thing I love about betta keeping is once everything is in place, you really don't have to keep investing other than fish food.


 I feel like the lights and gadgets are the most expensive and unpredictable cost... like if a filter or heater or light dies... but yes plants are costly but I have learned to propagate pretty well from youtube so I plan on buying one plant at a time and multiplying them slowly and get rid of all the plastic plants and then taking the time to actually put some soil down... which is going to be a pain in the butt... i hate removing an existing substrate... its just a huge hassle...time consuming and I worry about scratching glass...oo and last time I put sand in I broke my filter haha... all of which are learning experiences... I will buy better sand next time.


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

this is my tank at the moment... but I changed the lights after this photo was taken lol so one side is brighter because I only bought one bulb


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Nice tank! =] Looks like a... 10g? It has a lot of potential for plant life, you could really make that thing flourish.

As for lights and gadgets.. as you have seen from my journal, the key to a prospering NPT is light. Do _not_ get sold on those expensive $110 LED Marineland strips. All you need is, in you're situation, probably one CFL 6500k+ light in a lamp with decent PAR rating. I got my lamps at Lowe's for $4 each I think, and the two CFL light pack was maybe $10. As for the heater, this is the exact heater I am using - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003C5TPF6/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It got awesome reviews and I've read of it not breaking down. Really don't go cheap on the heater.. especially in a cold climate. The heater was the first thing I bought because back when it was only me, Clare and that little 1/2g fish bowl, she almost died in the winter time.. in Arizona. I never want to have her or my girls at risk again! That heater is so good I've considered buying another. Its gone down in price too, when I bought it I think it was $35. 

Other than that I have a Tetra whisper pump I am absolutely happy with, a 2 way gang valve (but I really only recommend one air stone/air outlet), and a Hyrdo 2 sponge filter which is awesome. The pump was $10 and the sponge filter was $12. Another $5 for the gang vale and probably $7 for connectors/hose. A lot of my struggle with tank and plant life was water movement.. neither betta's or plants like a lot of movement. I had to take out my Coliseum's air stone and turn my filter's air output WAY down. With my future 5/10g male tank I'm going to buy the exact same setup I have with my sorority.


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

I have an aqueon 20 filter... LOVE IT! I've had it a year and never had to change the cartridge.. My heater is Agueon 50watt adjustable... 40$? I think I was robbed but it has been reliable...I bought my first bulb yesterday and was robbed lol 17$ for the colormax 10 watt 6"... I will buy them from amazon from now on, but I love the way it shines omg my tank looks so WHITE!


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

Oo and yes it is a ten gallon! I eventually would love a 29g bowfront... but thats like in 5 years... maybe 3?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Sounds like a good setup you have there! I'd strongly recommend the organic potting soil miracle grow makes like I used, the results are insane! If you wanted a bow front that bad I doubt it would take that long to save up


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## katrina89 (Jul 16, 2012)

Phantom Miria said:


> Sounds like a good setup you have there! I'd strongly recommend the organic potting soil miracle grow makes like I used, the results are insane! If you wanted a bow front that bad I doubt it would take that long to save up


Its more about the space and little experience than the money. I want one when we buy a house


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Pretty horrible update.. Asteroth seemingly has Columnaris. I think it spread from one of the younger girls a few days ago which had a white spot on her mouth. It has since dissipeared from the younger girl but Asteroth has it covering her mouth and fins. I put as many betta's in quarantine containers as fast and soon as I could.. but all betta's have been exposed. Trying my hardest to get medicine for them. Pretty upset about the whole situation...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, I did see your PM and post and I'm really sorry :-( Medicate the girl's separately but don't worry about the tank, Columnaris lurks in the water no matter what so it won't effect new fish if you had happened to put them in there. So focus on curing the girl's in QT first and then once they are cured, they can go back into the tank. Yes it is possible they could become infected once more but if they aren't stressed out as much, they won't be reinfected. Sort of hard to explain, I apologize, it's just one of those things.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Asteroth and Teressa both died while I was on two hour bike ride... that fast. Its been really hard on me. Neither one was fin clamped and had any real signs of problems, Asty just had a few white specs. Both died with fins open like they had been frozen in place... 

Tessa seems sick and Derpy is on the fence... I'm sure they're next. Apple Bloom, Clarissa and Elly all seem healthy. I really, really hope they are not sick. 

Total nightmare...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh I am so sorry  Were they bloated at all, any other weird signs? This happened to one of my girl's as well, fine one day and the next she was gone. I also have columnaris in my tank and I really think that's it. It seems like all the sororities we've had started up in the past year have been devastated by columnaris in the past month or so and it's really making me wonder. The same disease running rampant through different unrelated tanks is just so suspicious :-/

I'm really sorry though.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Both girls might have been slightly bloated but I'm skeptical of it. I considered taking pictures but it was just too hard for me. Asteroth's only signs were the cotton like growths. As for Teressa, she scared me the most because she was absolutely playful, gorgeous, eating, and acting fine when I left. I know for a fact Teressa wasn't bloated, didn't have white spots, and had no signs of anything. Like I said, she died as if you were to take a picture of her while she was swiming.. fins out, eyes open, etc. 

What I really need now is to know what to do with the survivors. If I need a new AQ and have to trash my old one & $150 in plants so be it. I don't really care, I just want to keep my other girls healthy. This pathogen is so violent and fast acting I seriously doubt the possible effectiveness of medication for this, but I'm willing to buy it still and give it a try.

In reference to you're suspicion of widespread Columnaris - I am no doctor and by no means an expert in what I'm about to say, but just from you're description it sounds like perhaps Betta fish as a species may be facing some kind of pandemic... equivalent to the black plaque or something like that. The astonishing speed at which this pathogen acts sure does raise up a lot of red flags and truly scares me for the safety and health of my other girls. They're aquarium wasn't perfect, I don't think anyone's is, but I did my tank changes every week and kept an eye on, well, everything and everyone....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

As I mentioned in the PM, getting a new tank is up to you, the fish are either going to get sick or not. It's not something you can eradicate from your water like Ich or Velvet since it's not a parasite but a fungus.

I do have fear's that whatever this is could possibly just all be Mycobacteria spread from a breeder who didn't know his or her fish had the disease and has just been spreading as people breed them and thus resulting in similar but different diseases since there are many faces of Mycobacteria. I don't mean to scare you, it really could just simply be the regular Columnaris and just happened to be at the same time. Could be the time of year, rotation of the Earth and so on, it all has an effect in the big picture. Of course, I can't prove any of it so it's mostly just speculation from here on out but either way, it's no good.

There could have been secondary infections in the girl's, not just the Columnaris which would then (depending on what it was) speed up infection and kill faster.

As far as your tank not being perfect, I really think you've done a much better job than most of us who have our sorority tanks right now, I really wish I had mine as an NPT, the jungle of plants is really more natural to the girl's than more open space. A Betta's natural habitat is just full of reed like plants/rice plants and more, they're built for swimming in between the plants and whatnot, not trying to swim up streams and jump waterfalls. So I do think you've got us beat there and have done a great job with the tank.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> As I mentioned in the PM, getting a new tank is up to you, the fish are either going to get sick or not. It's not something you can eradicate from your water like Ich or Velvet since it's not a parasite but a fungus.
> 
> I do have fear's that whatever this is could possibly just all be Mycobacteria spread from a breeder who didn't know his or her fish had the disease and has just been spreading as people breed them and thus resulting in similar but different diseases since there are many faces of Mycobacteria. I don't mean to scare you, it really could just simply be the regular Columnaris and just happened to be at the same time. Could be the time of year, rotation of the Earth and so on, it all has an effect in the big picture. Of course, I can't prove any of it so it's mostly just speculation from here on out but either way, it's no good.
> 
> ...


Yes, from what I'm reading that's what I understand. I mean I'd prefer to not throw out good plants, aqua-scape, a good tank, etc. but if it was required I'd do it for my girls. I have Maracyn 2 on the way as well as Methalyne blue to give them dips in if needed, but from what I understand Maracyn 2 is an antibiotic that is put into the Aquarium and eradicates most of the pathogen, but apparently the pathogen is always there. So I guess the Maracyn is my best bet right now.

What you're saying about Mycobacteria makes a lot of sense. Its all speculation since its almost impossible to prove, and obviously researchers will most likely not focus on Betta's, but it is still scary to think about and becoming all to real and apparent to me, and my poor girls. Asteroth had fin damage when I received her, and she always seemed a bit timid/recessive... maybe she was just the most susceptible to the sickness. 

I really, REALLY tried my best with the tank, and still I fail a lot of times. I did my tank change, my nitrite and nitrate levels are fine, but my NH3 levels are WAY WAY to high. The only thing I can think of is dead plants.. I think I have WAY to much plant life in my AQ, I know it sounds weird but I have clusters and bunches and lots of 'floating meadows', and I can't always pick out all the rotting plants/carcasses (although I do my best). Perhaps the rotting plants have accumulated over time and spiked the NH3 levels. I'm now suspecting that Teressa died from a combination of NH3 poisoning and shock, she was really timid, young and seemingly fragile. It could even be the substrate.....

I'm considering pulling out a lot of my plants, tossing any that look even slightly dead, and rescaping. To be perfectly honest, a red tiger lotus AND a dwarf lily is WAY to much bulb, I am trimming back 7-10 lily pads weekly, and obviously I can't always get them at the bass.

Right now I have all the girls floating in the AQ at 74F, to help slow the possible pathogen. The medicine will be here on Wednesday, or possibly Tuesday.. its the earliest I could get it. I have been constantly checking on the girls every hour. They are all silently drifting in they're cups... no sign of sickness/decay/cottonmouth's/any problems. They are reluctant to eat, but I'm sure this is due to the shock/stress they are under from the transfer to cups. I'm doing daily 100% water changes and rinsing off all cups/items used to move the girls with hot water. Its the best I can do right now.

Any suggestions are appreciated.. I also have a post in the betta sickness forum. I'm doing everything I can to save the rest of my girls


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss 




lilnaugrim said:


> Oh I am so sorry  Were they bloated at all, any other weird signs? This happened to one of my girl's as well, fine one day and the next she was gone. I also have columnaris in my tank and I really think that's it. It seems like all the sororities we've had started up in the past year have been devastated by columnaris in the past month or so and it's really making me wonder. The same disease running rampant through different unrelated tanks is just so suspicious :-/
> 
> I'm really sorry though.


I do agree. It seems as if all of the sororities are going down hill. That's why I am scared for mine.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

PetMania said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks....

As if work, the incoming snowstorm and winter issues I'm facing weren't stressful enough, this has got to be topping the list. I truly hope you're sorority stays strong and healthy, I wouldn't wish this kind of problem on my worst enemy. I'm going to lose sleep over this tonight :\ 

If I could offer you any advice, have antibiotics on hand (the wait time for mine could very well mean life or death for my remaining girls) and check you're levels ALL THE TIME. It seems like just when the tank gets comfortable NH3 will spike to 9000ppm


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Phantom Miria said:


> Thanks....
> 
> As if work, the incoming snowstorm and winter issues I'm facing weren't stressful enough, this has got to be topping the list. I truly hope you're sorority stays strong and healthy, I wouldn't wish this kind of problem on my worst enemy. I'm going to lose sleep over this tonight :\
> 
> If I could offer you any advice, have antibiotics on hand (the wait time for mine could very well mean life or death for my remaining girls) and check you're levels ALL THE TIME. It seems like just when the tank gets comfortable NH3 will spike to 9000ppm


Thanks. I don't know. Is there something just spreading? But how come this seems to only happen in sororities? I'll try to pick the healthiest females possible. Is it a good sign when females are interesting in breeding? Does that mean they are healthy? I was thinking that this was a good test.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

PetMania said:


> Thanks. I don't know. Is there something just spreading? But how come this seems to only happen in sororities? I'll try to pick the healthiest females possible. Is it a good sign when females are interesting in breeding? Does that mean they are healthy? I was thinking that this was a good test.


It almost seems like there is a betta pandemic spreading... obviously that claim is unproven, but from what I've heard it is going around, unfortunately.

The reason it happens in sororities is probably due to the fact so many betta's are in close proximity and have a higher chance of contracting it from being stressed out by other girls. They are fighting fish, after all; they nip each other, bite, etc. As you can see with my disaster, it takes one slip up to have the entire sorority devastated in a matter of days. 

As far as picking out healthy betta's; I don't even know how to answer this question. A few months ago I was at the shop and had my crowntails custom ordered. From that shipment of new crowntails I picked only the healthiest looking ones. Looks can be deceiving though... I'm sure someone else can give you better advice on the matter. I know for a fact that Asteroth has been eggy before, but I doubt that contributed to any kind of sickness. 

I hate to say this; but perhaps sick betta's that are dying off are merely just inferior physiologically, and like I said maybe they are facing some kind of easily contractible illness, or pandemic. Just theorizing... but then again if it happened I doubt anyone would be able to prove it.

Best of luck to you're sorority, and every other sorority here. I hope no one else has to suffer what I'm going through, or what Lilnaugrim has been/is going through. I just want to help these poor girls out.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I can agree with all of that. 

That's the advantage of having wild bettas, they can get along. They aren't as agressive and they can literally have a family. I wish I had those, but I don't know any breeders in the states. 

My definition of a healthy female betta would be: active, no clamped fins, clear eyes, inquisitive, alert. That said, that doesn't mean that they can't carry a disease. But that's why i am going to quarantine each female for 2+ weeks.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You are right about picking healthy females Pet. Exactly as you described in the above post, is what I would also look for. Of course, I did have a few sicker ones come in that I thought I cured but turns out that I didn't and whatever they had, came back.

One of the biggest lessons I have probably learned besides QT'ing for a month is sharing equipment; don't do it! Either spray/rinse out with alcohol after each use and rinse with water and let dry or get separate equipment for each tank you've got.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I like to get an algae scrubber, net, gravel vacuum, and etc. for each tank. Though, most of these supplies don't work in my other tanks as they are a bit small


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Never had an algae scrubber, those nerites stay on top of that!

A bit of good news, my girls all seem to be doing great! They are reluctant to eat as usual when they are in they're cups, and unhappy, but at least they are safe and healthy for now.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Yay! That's great to hear =D 
Do you use API Stress Coat? I totally recommend this product for sick or stressed fish. It's a miracle worker. I have not lost a signal fish whilst using this.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm dosing them with AQ salt and SC as well =] it sees to be working well for them. I think the SC is a good idea because I have to hand handle the two bigger girls, and its not good for they're slime coat.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

When my CT lost a few scales, I dosed him with some SC and the scales grew back (at least I think) at a darker shade, but he seemed a lot happier.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yeah, that SC is really good!! I'm glad it worked out for you too =]

I'm trying to decide to best course of action.. I'm so nervous, stressed and worried about the next steps to take and if I should dose them antibiotics or not :S


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Alright well I did a head count on my snails and another large 80% water change... I counted 5/7 snails, but to be honest I don't know where the others are.. I really doubt they are dead, and I'm not sure I even had 7 to begin with. Besides my tank should be smelly if there were dead snails.. I mean it smells, but its not repulsive or anything. My tap water has no NH3 either. No signs of dead snails but I did a lot of plant/dead matter removal and got a decent amount, maybe a few cups worth. I'm getting really sick of the water sprite because it multiplies, takes over, dies and latches onto other plants so I took most of it out. Mostly it was just small pockets of dead brown plant, etc. One thing I've noted before and am noting again is a weird 'fungus' like formation that is usually around the sides of the AQ and around the base of plants as seen here - 

They kind of look like cobwebs sometimes too, not sure if its relevant.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's some type of algae, I'm not sure what though.

Glad there is no traces of ammonia in your tap though, that's a good start although makes it more difficult to decide what the heck made your ammonia spike so high lol. I mean, it could be the potting soil and the snails combined maybe, idk. And the tank wouldn't smell if you had dead snails in there, especially if the girl's ate them. I've had plenty of dead snails and they only smell after you take them out of the water, my water always smells fine though.

I really think you need to use the antibiotics on them, make sure it's the right kind though. Try to use a broad spectrum one like KanaPlex, I like KanaPlex since it's very easy on their system as well and doesn't stress them out as much as Maracyn will since it's older, it also may not have an effect on the disease. Keep the girl's QT'd for at least another two weeks though just in case they show signs of the illness.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Ok good, glad it wasn't something bad. After doing my mass cleaning tank change last night, I let it sit over night and just measured it this morning. My NH3 levels are down, but still present around .5-1ppm. I have a hard time believing plant matter contributed _that_ much NH3 into the system though. Would aeration of the soil play a role? When scaping this tank I put a bit much soil down, a little more than 2" and aerate as often as I can, but know I miss a bit. I fear one of the better ideas would be to re-soil the tank.. which would suck, but this time I could sift the soil and clean if prior and also get rid of any potentially dead nerites buried into the soil.

Like I said I've got Maracyn 2 on the way and Methylene Blue as well (want to save this for very sick betta's) but I can order Kanaplex, I've heard very positive things about it, it would just take another two days to arrive. Lilnaugrim, if you think that's what I should do I won't hesitate to do it. I can do two weeks, I have no problem with that but at this point, if you were me would you buy another tank? I just know the girls hate they're cups. I can get a 10 gallon locally for like $20 and get the heater on Amazon for $20, its really not so bad. The air pump and the rest is very cheap as well, and I could just separate them up. Just a thought, if you think the cups are ok I'll stick with them, its just with the other AQ I could treat them all with anti's, and keep them at an optimal temperature all the time. I could separate them with that eggcrate stuff. They'd each get two gallons :3


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I would think that getting a 10 gallon to use as QT right now would probably be the best idea, not only for the girls but for you as well; it's going to take off quite a bit of stress. You'll still need to do water changes according to the medications but it might be easier and less stressful on the girl's as well. Also, have you looked at Wal-mart or anywhere they sell just the tank? All you need is the tank and a heater and of course the divider's, but the tank should only be 14.99 generally if it doesn't come with other stuff. You can use a filter if you want, just make sure to take out the carbon in it so it doesn't remove the meds.

As far as soil getting gas bubbles, it does happen but very rarely will it but that horrible it will cause a spike of ammonia to go up to 6-8ppm! It would have to be a very large bubble and you would notice a horrible sulfur smell in the room where the tank is, if you don't smell bad sulfur then you're set and it wasn't a bubble.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Yeah I'll go to Wal mart tonight and get an extra AQ, I just want to make sure my ladies are as comfortable during the process. Are you still thinking Kanoplex is the best idea?

There were no bubbles that size, just small bubbles as usual. I am really doing everything by the books here but its like I'm missing something, or something is off... at least with the Aquarium.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, I do still recommend KanaPlex. You can start treating with the Maracyn while you wait. If you don't, I don't think using salt will be a good idea though, it's just more added, unnecessary stress for them is all. And besides, too much of it can cause severe damage to the kidney's/liver, causing them to go Dropsy mode and die :-( I've had that happen before unfortunately.

I really have no idea honestly, the only thing I can think of would be not rinsing the substrate but that's so moot it isn't even funny, it wouldn't effect the tank at all and definitely not after all this time. All I can think of are the two missing snails which could just be hiding but if they haven't turned up by now then I'm thinking it is possible you buried them by accident and they just never made it up :-/


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Here are my three options; I have AQ salt on hand, and I've been treating accordingly because its better than nothing (I thought) but they show no signs of problems, besides slight inactivity due to small cups. My other option is the Maracyn 2 - It will be in the mail tomorrow and I can start treatment tomorrow night. My third option is KanaPlex - I just bought it and it will most likely be in next Monday. I'm willing to wait for the KP if you think its safe, I want to have it on hand as well though.

You're saying to stop treatment altogether with AQ salt? It sounds like it may be more damage than help.

I've rinsed substrate before - its nasty work but is worth it. I forgot to do it with my 20g, I'll do it when I plant this new 10g. There are so many plants and the snails blend in so well its not even funny. I'm about 80% sure they are either dead or were never in there to begin with. I guess the next best option is to re substrate the tank? I can do it, I'm just worried about uprooting all those now rooted deep plants, especially my Red Tiger Lotus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've also got a heater on the way, going to get them in that AQ asap, probably at first all together and separated just so they have more space then I'll throw the heater in. I just know they hate those cups, and I do to. With the AQ, I'll be able to just siphon as well.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, KanaPlex is very safe and very non-stressful for the girl's.

AQ salt doesn't help for anything except Ich and sometimes Velvet if it's not too far along. What AQ salt is balance out their electrolytes (that part is good) but it also just invigorates their slime coat so they produce more which makes the old slime coat shed; thus knocking off parasites like Ich. But it does nothing for slime infections, columnaris, fungal stuff and other's. So yes, I think you should wean them off.

I don't really think you need to resubstrate your tank, you said your ammonia levels were coming down right? So that's good! Just keep an eye on them as the girls are in QT so that you can catch if it spikes again is all.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I noticed a few of the girls are kind of sitting on the bottom sometimes, fins aren't clamped though. I'm not sure if they are sleeping or getting depressed. Anyways, I ordered the KanaPlex. I'll discontinue to AQ salt, it might be why they are kinda sluggish. Glad to know I won't need to re substrate my tank.. even if a snail died, after a while the corpse would stop giving off NH3/rotting right? Will keep you updated, going to check NH3 levels tomorrow morning. Girls are quietly floating tonight


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Decomposition lasts a while so since your ammonia levels are already coming down, I don't think it's from a dead snail :-/


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Well I just checked my NH3 levels; they are even lower than a day ago, looking to be at zero now... same color as my tap water. I guess maybe the dead plant piles really contributed to the NH3?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's completely possible.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> It's completely possible.


Interesting.. the more and more I go to that AQ shop the more and more I realize that guy is literally spewing bull**** from his mouth. 'It would take an entire aquarium to die to cause that much NH3 poisoning'. Anyways, I had an idea this morning and turned the second air-stone on and put both at high blast, to help disrupt any possible pockets in the soil or lose dead plants. When I got home my AQ was a dark red, I'm not sure what that means but I just did a full tank change on it and siphoned out more dead plant (a ton less but my floor is totally clean now). I'm confident for when I test in the morning my NH3 will be 0ppm. I'm dosing the AQ with stress zyme and am dosing my girls only with stress coat now.

If my NH3 levels stabilize and the AQ seems stable, how soon do you think I should be adding the girls, and if medicating them would still be necessary? Its been five days since the incident. None of the girls have really eaten but they've pooped quite a lot, so I guess I've been indirectly fasting them, but they are unhappy and sluggish. Another AQ would be nice, but its kind of an expense I can't afford unless I have to.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Sometimes the uneducated can really bug ya.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I agree Pet >.< I hate listening to them sometimes and they act like they actually know everything lol.

Well it's all up to you Phantom, if you think the girls are good to go in again after your levels are stable then go for it, just make sure to float them in the tank for a little while before releasing them.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Okay, so I let my tank sit for another 48 hours and tested every param I could with the API kit. Everything is perfect; No NH3, no Nitrite, 20-35 ppm of Nitrate, and well lets face it I can't do much about my PH but it was at 7.7 as usual. I'm going to try to let the girls roam free tonight and watch them closely for any strange signs. They are miserable in they're cups; no question about it and I'd rather take let them have they're needed space. I'll measure the params tomorrow at least twice and a few times this week if anything seems out of place they're back in the cups. And plus if they develop some sickness I have three antibiotics to treat them now! I've done literally four full water changes in the last 5 days and let me tell you it sucks, if any sickness was there I've done everything I can to remove it.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I let them back in, water conditions were very well. A bit of body slamming (makes me giggle every time) and some nipping but nothing serious. I think there is enough space to where they don't see each other enough to fight.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm glad things are working better for you and the girls!!  makes me happy ^_^


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> I'm glad things are working better for you and the girls!!  makes me happy ^_^


Thank you me to!! Ely is being a little aggressive haha but that's alright like I said there is so much room usually they are literally across the tank from each other. Clarissa is doing great and coming up to the front of the tank like she used to and eating again :-D


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Really to hear how things are going =)


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Glad to hear that things are looking up!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thank you all for the positive encouragement =)!!


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

No problem! Reading all of the sorority journals make me nervous for mine, but yours is making me very hopeful =)


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I was feeding my girls tonight and noticed little AB was on the floor, just laying there. I poked her and she got active, but I'm confident she wasn't sleeping so I took a very very long, close look at her. I noticed something below her snout (or chin) that looks fuzzy, it honestly looks like it could be Columnaris, but obviously I am kind of specifically _looking _for it so its very hard to tell- 



I honestly can't tell what it is, but I immediately pulled her out and started Maracyn-2 treatment. I know its a bit radical but she's been acting sluggish and now is not the time to second guess things, Asty was acting sluggish kind of like this as well so I'm not taking any chances. Another indication is she won't eat. All the other girls are vigorously eating and she wouldn't even take a nibble. I've got her in the glass 1/2 gallon and gave her like 3/5 a treatment of it which is kind of strong, but I'm doing my best to measure it out. I never realized but that 1/2 gallon fits perfectly between the Colosseum so I'm floating her in there and she's got to be pretty comfortable. All other girls seem fine!


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I can't tell either. It looks like it could be a wound, columnaris, or infection.


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

Good for you, Phantom, that was a smart move. It looks a lot like some kind of fungal infection- hopefully it isn't contagious :/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's not fungal, looks like a wound actually. I saw the same thing happen to the female swordtail at school and she didn't last the week, although the wound was more at her ovipositer where as Apple's isn't right around it so I'm not terribly certain what it is. But I know it's not contagious because all the other fish have been fine in that tank.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Or the columnaris or fungus could be under the gill... I've seen that happen too.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Also true. Although this looks more smooth and rounded rather than white and fluffy as Columnaris would be.

And I just have to say, She's gotten so biggggg!!!! :-D


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

For now, I am casting my vote as a wound. Could you please get an under picture of her abdomen?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for the help and replies guys, its really important to me that I treat her right and do everything in my power to get her better. After getting home and getting an even closer look at her, I'm more confident its a fungal infection/Columnaris. I've not been home that long but she seems a bit more labored, staying at the bottom. She is still surfacing just fine and occasionally drifting around, but not really active at all. I'm not sure if its perhaps a side affect of the medication. I got some good pictures so *please *tell me what you think and what further course of treatment action I should take, I am really close with AB -






I also have a very important question about Maracyn-2 - the boxinstructs 2 packets per 10 gallons the first day, and 1 packet per 10 gallons for the following five days. I've treated her with less than half of one packet in her 1/2 gallon bowl so far and it is now day two. I'm wondering if I must first do a water change and then treat her with the next treatment, and if I need to do a water change every time before I do a treatment. I'm also wondering if I am dosing her to much. Thanks for the help everyone!!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

To me it honestly doesn't look like Columnaris, at least none that I've gone through but alas there are many strains of it. I had a brief thought about Lymphocystis and it is a possibility but I'm still not sure of it. Lympho is a viral infection so no meds will do anything but the best thing to do is keep the fish healthy as you can so that the fish can fight off the infection itself. Generally it is not at all deadly and the fish will get over it in about a month or so themselves but it is also high contagious.

That is just a thought though and I'm not saying she has it but it's something else to consider. I would keep going with the Maracyn II for now anyway. Do water changes when you need to and just treat her with the less than half each time. You are technically overdosing but it's not something that will hurt her. Just keep an eye on it, if it doesn't seem to be working in a few day's then you should move on and try something different.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> To me it honestly doesn't look like Columnaris, at least none that I've gone through but alas there are many strains of it. I had a brief thought about Lymphocystis and it is a possibility but I'm still not sure of it. Lympho is a viral infection so no meds will do anything but the best thing to do is keep the fish healthy as you can so that the fish can fight off the infection itself. Generally it is not at all deadly and the fish will get over it in about a month or so themselves but it is also high contagious.
> 
> That is just a thought though and I'm not saying she has it but it's something else to consider. I would keep going with the Maracyn II for now anyway. Do water changes when you need to and just treat her with the less than half each time. You are technically overdosing but it's not something that will hurt her. Just keep an eye on it, if it doesn't seem to be working in a few day's then you should move on and try something different.


Thanks for the reply =) I looked up Lymphocystis, it seems to have a pinkish color. Its hard to tell what's there, but I've not seen any kind of pinkish color.. but can most of us come to a consensus that their _is _something up with her? If it is in fact Lymphocystis, its good to hear she should get over it on her own.

I just got home from the gym and she seems a bit more playful swimming around. Mean lil Clarissa is trying to start a flare party under her little fishbowl but AB doesn't even see her haha xD

I will finish the cycle of Mar-2, the water is super clean and params are what I assume to be fine but I'll check them tomorrow. Also, if Mar-2 doesn't work I've got KanoPlex on the way (should actually be here). Also, I'm glad to see you noted her getting bigger  like I said she is kinda my fav girl :3


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Lympho usually appear's like a white dot, but it also depends on the color of the fish as well. 

But yes, there is soemthing up with her, I just don't know exactly what it is. You should make a new thread about her in the disease section to see if one of our reference team members can help us out here!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Today when I got home she seemed lifeless at the bottom, but was in fact alive and I observed her surface for air multiple times. She has developed a reddish haze around her eyes, and it seems like the growth has grown a tiny bit - 
I changed out her water and she seemed to wake up a bit and be less lethargic because of the excitement, and I gave her the third dose of antibiotics.

I'm really trying not to lose hope but this is seriously depressing... I had a wonderful flourishing tank full of life and now its full of death and sickness and its upsetting that I can't do much to stop it. I'm debating giving up the aquarium if AB passes, I just can't take much more of this...


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Don't give up!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

PetMania said:


> Don't give up!


I'm really trying here :-(


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

:-( I'm really sorry Phantom! I don't know what else to say about her :-(


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

A bit of an interesting update, not particularly a good one; when I woke up this morning she seemed a lot more active but she has clearly developed popeye sometime over night- 



The reason why its interesting is because Maracyn-2 specifically treats popeye. She is really holding on!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Wow yeah...that's weird. It could not be bacteria Pop-eye though since there are multiple types of Pop-eye stemming from different things. If you have Epsom salt, you can try that in combination with the Maracyn-2 to see if that helps her swelling. You can start with 1 tsp/gal to start.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

It is weird... I went ahead and gave her 1/2 tsp treatment, I hope that helps! I'm totally going to be late for work but that's ok lol. I'll update when I get home, thanks so much Lilnaugrim =)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

NP! I PM'ed LittleBlueFishlets as well in hopes she can help, I'll see if maybe Sakura8 can help as well. I really don't want you to give up on this tank and your girls! I know how easy it is and it's really not worth it! Here's to hoping the Epsom will help rid Apple of her swelling


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Good luck!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I got home today and she is is still alive and swimming occasionally but looks even worse.. her popeye is now on both eyes and they're even more inflamed... 



Looking at her and those pictures absolutely kills me... I feel so helpless, I really don't want her to go away  I gave her the next dose of Maracyn... not much more I can do. Any help is appreciated..


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I don't have any experience with this, so i don't want to risk making it worse, sorry I can't give enough advice. 

I really hope she pulls through. You are doing a great job and doing the right thing


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm sorry, I really don't know what else. You can try adding another dose of Maracyn to the water now to double it, it won't hurt her.


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm not sure if this would help with diagnosing or not, but it looks like she has sores near her gills (or on top of?) around her gill area, it looks like sores (forgive my poor anatomy knowledge). I just noticed in the pictures (particularly your most recent) and I don't know if that's maybe a possible sign of what she has or not. Either way, I really hope she get's better.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for the note... I too noticed that tonight. Something else I didn't catch is if you look at the first most recent picture, she has also developed fin rot in the back of her anal fin. She's not had fin rot since I've had her, so that's symptoms of at least three different ailments.... sigh


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm not sure if this is even a possibility, but could she be allergic to the Maracyn or one of its ingredients?


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## clairefish (Jul 30, 2013)

Watching, waiting, and hoping that you guys discover something, since my boy is going through something similar (but it's been long-term - my post: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=3389593#post3389593 ). He doesn't have pop-eye but instead cloudy eyes/blindness, although the sore looks VERY similar to me. :/


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

BettaLover1313 said:


> I'm not sure if this is even a possibility, but could she be allergic to the Maracyn or one of its ingredients?


Thanks for you're input =) that's definitely a possibility and I was thinking that myself, I mean the fin rot and popeye didn't develop until after I started treating her... 

I'm going to let Lilnaugrim say what she thinks, because if the medication is in fact helping her I wouldn't want to just stop dosing her, but at the same time if it is causing severe side effects I need to stop it.


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Again, I don't know if it's possible, but it does strike me as strange that the popeye developed with the medicine that is supposed to cure it. My first thought is that something in the medicine might be an irritant.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

It is definitely plausible and I thought the same thing.. it seems irritated and red around her eyes which doesn't look like most popeye cases.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It could be that the growth under her gills is putting pressure on her head and causing her eyes to pop out.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I agree with Matt in this case. I'm not sure if fish actually experience allergens like we do, although I'm sure it's possible as Cat's and Dog's do but only after our poor care for many year's now and then they develop allergies.

How is she today?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Swelling is just as bad or possibly a tiny bit worse  no noticed improvement...

I hate to say this but I guess I should really consider euthanizing her.. she has got to be in a lot of pain, I've never seen eyes this swollen on a betta.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I just don't know what to say anymore... she's gotten worse, her infection looks very painful, but she is still alive for sure, and still swimming around...


Its almost like she is disintegrating. I did a tank change to test out the allergen to Mar-2 theory and had her dosed with only AQ salt from last night to afternoon today.. no change. I added Mar-2 back in. I cannot express how sad I am to have to watch her suffer and go through this


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm so sorry :-(

However, I believe the fish can still live on if they loose their eye's so that might help but still, I just don't know :-(


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> I'm so sorry :-(
> 
> However, I believe the fish can still live on if they loose their eye's so that might help but still, I just don't know :-(


So what you're saying is that this popeye is most likely going to blind her/already has? 

She seems disoriented when she swims around, she may be unable to see, but like I said she has been very hardy through this entire thing... she's been sick since last weekend so this marks almost an entire week of poor AB holding on. I'm doing my best to accept she is most likely going to pass away, but at the same time I don't want to give up hope. I just checked again and poked her and she is surfacing fine and everything.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, she could become blind but she could still be functional and all, just wouldn't be able to live in a sorority or in a large tank is all. But it really depends on what kind of Pop-eye she has, I assume it's bacterial going along with the other diseases but we can't know for sure. And as Matt pointed out, it could be something within her which is forcing pressure to her eye's and making them bulge. I really can't say which though. Just keep medicating and when KanaPlex arrives, try that as well.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yes, she could become blind but she could still be functional and all, just wouldn't be able to live in a sorority or in a large tank is all. But it really depends on what kind of Pop-eye she has, I assume it's bacterial going along with the other diseases but we can't know for sure. And as Matt pointed out, it could be something within her which is forcing pressure to her eye's and making them bulge. I really can't say which though. Just keep medicating and when KanaPlex arrives, try that as well.


Interesting to know. Well if that's what it takes I'd do it for her. A little bit of good news-her eye swelling has gone down, I can see her green eyes again =) She is very lethargic though and seems fin clamped most of the time (I would be too if I was her) and hasn't eaten for about a week, so I'm worried about that. She has some kind of bags under her eyes that look blood red, but I'm assuming its from the swelling decrease. Her fin rot has not gotten worse either and is still in that single spot. Treatment of Maracyn 2 is complete. In a mixup with the shipping company, my KanoPlex was shipped to the wrong state.. but they are 1 day air shipping it to me so I will receive it tomorrow. I can't believe she's still holding on but I'm glad she is!


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## annyann (Oct 28, 2013)

I just read through your journal and I wish I had some advice to give you, but I have no idea what would help her. I just wanted to offer a bit of support and I hope she will pull through.


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

I was just looking at her symptoms, and they seem to be the same thing my Kassiandra had at the end of her life. I didn't manage to catch hers soon enough, though, and humane euthanasia was the only option for her at that point. I hope that your treatment will heal your girl, as I didn't have those meds with Kass, only salt at that point.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

annyann said:


> I just read through your journal and I wish I had some advice to give you, but I have no idea what would help her. I just wanted to offer a bit of support and I hope she will pull through.


Thanks so much, just some support and words go a long way =)

Her swelling has gone down some more and she seems to be doing better. I'm just curious as to how feeding her would work in the even she is blind which I'm pretty sure she is, she doesn't seem to be responding to my fingers outside of the glass or anything.

As for the KanoPlex, should I just jump right in to it? She just finished her treatment of Maracyn 2.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Feed her by putting the food right in front of her nose. 

Using so many strong meds at once can damage the kidney and liver to the point of dropsy... If I were you I would give her a day or two off of meds just so she could recuperate, but I'm not sure because hitting it hard might be what's needed in this case...


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

I had a blind girl once, and she had to be taken out of the sorority in her own environment. I opted for sparse planting and only one hide for her. Never change the decorations, it really confuses them and takes a while for them to reassess their surroundings and become comfortable again. My girl, along with other blind fish, would find the pellets by smell and when they contacted with the water. At first she was only partially blind, but it led later on to her being fully blind. At first I would have to spend 10 minutes trying to feed her, but she got the hang of it.

Hopefully your girl will have some remaining vision, and if not, I'm sure she'll be okay without her sight after a little while.

EDIT** I forgot to mention that you can also place the pellet right in front of her so she has easy access.

Re-edit** Matt already mentioned that XD


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks guys for the help! And yeah Matt you are right, I'll wait a few days for her before starting KanoPlex. Like I said, she seems to be doing a bit better.. I don't want to say she is out of the woods yet, she has terribly red bags under her eyes but the lump under her snout seems a lot smaller and she has stopped 'rotting' and her fin rot is not getting worse. I'll be more than happy to take care of her and adjust to her needs in the event she is blind. I'm pretty sure her right eye is blind, but I can once again see her green eyes =)


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

If she seems to be doing better then maybe you can hold off on the meds and see how she does and if she continues to improve.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi guys... Apple Bloom started pineconing today and her eyes were just white, popped, bleeding, and she was having buoyancy issues. I made probably the hardest decision ever and euthanized her... I think it was for the best and *really *hard for me. I'm going to give her a proper burial...


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Sorry for your loss. As hard as it is euthanasia was the right choice.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm so, so sorry Phantom


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thank you guys for you're understanding and condolences, it means a lot to me. Like I said, after a brutal treatment of antibiotics she started showing signs of serious organ failure (aka dropsy/pinecone) and I just couldn't stand it anymore... her eyes were bleeding, milky white, she had buoyancy issues (was floating perpendicular) and I'm confident in saying she was terminally ill and in pain. I couldn't stand to see her like that. Euthanizing her was probably the hardest thing I've had to do and strangely reminded me exactly how human I am and how emotional things like this can really be, I'm not afraid to admit there were lots of tears (there kind of is right now). She may have just been a fish, but she was my pet and I loved her. I gave her a proper burial in the rain, stayed for some time to pay my respects and words. I buried her right next to her fellow sisters too, I hope they are all swimming around up there peacefully together =) 




The question now is where do I go from here; like I said this has been pretty rough for me, I was very fond of AB and I don't know if I want to continue my sorority. What do you guys think I should do? My four girls are doing very well though, all of them come up for feeding and they are a little nippy towards each other, but getting along. No clear signs of fin rot/torn fins or anything but I still think bumping the sorority up to at least eight would be a good idea, if I continue. If I continue I'd also want to get some Otto's as well.

Once again thank you all for you're help, compassion and kind words, this is one of the friendliest communities I've ever been in. Also a special thanks to Lilnaugrim who really did everything she could to help out my girls when they were sick, you are truly an inspiration and good friend =)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thank you for the kind words  I do wish I could have helped more :-(

As for the sorority, if the girls are doing fine, just leave them as is unless you want more girls. But if they are cohabiting just fine, I see no reason to disrupt the hierarchy really. You could still do the Oto's though, just make sure you QT and just keep an eye on the girls for any more signs of illness.


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm so very sorry to hear about Apple Bloom . I know how hard that decision must have been for you, but I think you made the right decision for her.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm sorry about your loss.

We'll miss you Apple, may you S.I.P.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

PetMania said:


> I'm sorry about your loss.
> 
> We'll miss you Apple, may you S.I.P.


Thank you guys very much for you're words =) 

With the shipment of KanoPlex I also got some Hikari food and the girls seem to love it a lot more than the API I've been using. I'm still debating getting some more girls and a school of otto for the sorority. Perfect NH3 readings all week!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Okay well I woke up a little bit sad about yesterday, but then I spent some time with my betta's and they cheered me right up :-D I still have four awesome girls that are very healthy and eating really well so I'm thankful for that. Lets get down to the photo shoot, they have been growing 


Doing her dance of joy 


She sneaks under a leaf and pokes her head out like we're playing hide n go seek :3



Derpy has been growing, crowns are really coming in!


I caught Elly in the middle of a surface 



Her eyes have really developed and look like little emeralds!



Here comes a bit of water rage :shock:


'sup. You come here often?


And of course Tessa has been maturing into my favorite colors of blue :3

I don't know how much longer I can keep myself from adopting a male from the pet shop D:


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

Did you get Derpy on AB? She looks just like my AB CT!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Elsewhere said:


> Did you get Derpy on AB? She looks just like my AB CT!


No, I didn't, I got her locally but the shop said they are from Florida. I think she was just a few months old when I got her and her sisters Teressa and Tessa (which were practically twins). She has a grey body like Derpy


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## Elsewhere (Dec 30, 2012)

Oh nice! She's a very pretty girl, even with her derpy-ness


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks!! xD!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Lovely pictures! Who is the first girl? You didn't say her name! lol I can't really identify them well yet except Elly of course haha. Looking good though! I'm happy they're healthy.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

The first girl is Clare! ! Thank you!


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

Beautiful girls!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thank you ^-^!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Few new things (not bad) going on; all the girls have been behaving a bit differently... it seems when I come home they are all front and center to greet me hehe, but the odd part is they are always in super close proximity. One could say they are tripping over themselves to see me haha but most likely begging for food -.- There is chasing mostly by Clare but no damage has been done - in fact I've never seen such pristine, vibrant fins. I'm trying to figure out why the girls aren't more spaced apart and more territorial like when there were more of them.

another thing - they all look a teeny bit bloated, most likely because of the new food, but they eat like they haven't eaten in weeks, they devourer the food and love it! lol.

One last thing to note is I've noticed 3 tiny transparent specs on Clare - I THINK they've been there for a while, and I'm not worried. They look kind of like discolored scales. She has two above her head and one right on her lip. They don't protrude, grow, change colors, look bad at all or anything but its just something to note. Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but nonetheless she is absolutely active, playful, eating and acting normal. NH3 levels been at zero for a good two weeks now =)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The specs could be just that, different colored scale. Often when a Betta (I've noticed this more on dragon scales but does happen to regular ones) get's an injury and scales are torn off/fall off, they grow back darker, sometimes lighter but usually darker.

I'm glad they're eating! There could have been a secret bully in Asteroth, Teressa or Apple Bloom and now that the threat is no longer there, they're happier and more carefree. They could like the different numbers maybe or something, tank over all health is good so they just might be happier. I think it's good and perhaps you shouldn't disrupt them if it's going well, at least not yet. Disrupting with more girls I mean, adding Oto's or whatever should be fine.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> The specs could be just that, different colored scale. Often when a Betta (I've noticed this more on dragon scales but does happen to regular ones) get's an injury and scales are torn off/fall off, they grow back darker, sometimes lighter but usually darker.
> 
> I'm glad they're eating! There could have been a secret bully in Asteroth, Teressa or Apple Bloom and now that the threat is no longer there, they're happier and more carefree. They could like the different numbers maybe or something, tank over all health is good so they just might be happier. I think it's good and perhaps you shouldn't disrupt them if it's going well, at least not yet. Disrupting with more girls I mean, adding Oto's or whatever should be fine.


I'm assuming she might have gotten nipped by one of the other girls or rolled around in some nerite eggs lol but yeah its not like a growth or anything and like I said she is absolutely healthy! One of the specs is on her bottom lip too.

A secret bully might have been the case, because I've never seen female bettas be in this close proximity happily living together. They are _literally _launching themselves at the food over each other, its like drugs to them LOL! They nip here and there and Clare chases sometimes but it seems more playful than anything you know? No one ever gets caught, no interlocking etc. 

I think you are right though, to keep the females the same for now. I am thinking of adding some different snails and a school of otto.

Quick side question to anyone who wants to answer -I've been noticing my plants kind of 'melting', getting all over the Colosseum and air bubbles forming on them sometimes as shown here - 

I'm hoping otto's might help remedy this as well.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah, your plants aren't melting but you in fact have a BGA outbreak! Just like me, yaya we're twins! lol. Blue Green Algae is a pain to get rid of, you can do a few things but the best I think will be a 3 day blackout (I'll be doing this) so lights off and towel over the tank the ENTIRE time, or blanket. Do not feed during this time (don't worry, your girls and snails will be fine!) and then after 3 day's do a water change and vacuum out all of the leftover BGA. You can also try to remove as much as you can before the blackout to make it easier for it to die.

Algae is a pain because it can cover your plants and suffocate them/block out their light so that's why some of them might be dying and what not.

Oto's unfortunately do not eat BGA, I found the Rainbow goby's and SAE (Siamese algae eater) and Black Mollies will do it if starved enough. But anyway, BGA is actually a bacteria, cyanobacteria I believe, not an algae. And it just means low Nitrates which I have at all times. For some reason my tanks just don't get Nitrates, so that's an issue on my part. But BGA is toxic to the fish if they eat it so try not to be friends with the fish if you want it to eat the BGA, it may not survive; it totally might but just saying.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Ah, your plants aren't melting but you in fact have a BGA outbreak! Just like me, yaya we're twins! lol. Blue Green Algae is a pain to get rid of, you can do a few things but the best I think will be a 3 day blackout (I'll be doing this) so lights off and towel over the tank the ENTIRE time, or blanket. Do not feed during this time (don't worry, your girls and snails will be fine!) and then after 3 day's do a water change and vacuum out all of the leftover BGA. You can also try to remove as much as you can before the blackout to make it easier for it to die.
> 
> Algae is a pain because it can cover your plants and suffocate them/block out their light so that's why some of them might be dying and what not.
> 
> Oto's unfortunately do not eat BGA, I found the Rainbow goby's and SAE (Siamese algae eater) and Black Mollies will do it if starved enough. But anyway, BGA is actually a bacteria, cyanobacteria I believe, not an algae. And it just means low Nitrates which I have at all times. For some reason my tanks just don't get Nitrates, so that's an issue on my part. But BGA is toxic to the fish if they eat it so try not to be friends with the fish if you want it to eat the BGA, it may not survive; it totally might but just saying.


Yeah twins xD! Anyways, the problem is that I'm leaving for a week on Sunday afternoon and my girls/tank will be under the watch of my roommate, and he cannot perform tank changes. I'll leave the lights off all day tomorrow and as much as I' home for on Sunday and then do the tank change, but after that I'm gone for a week :| And yes I've noticed a slight decline in my plants, this would explain it. I'm not worried though if anything I need to downsize my plants so its ok.

I'll try the blackout method but when you say toxic to my fish do you mean my girls? Are they safe? My NH3 levels are still a solid zero and I am always clipping these infected plants away. Thanks for you're help! Seems we always suffer from the similar tragic *insert whatever it is here* -.-


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

no, no, I mean eating the BGA is toxic! since it's not an algae but a cyanobacteria lol it's not going to leech or anything, totally safe to peal off or leave there or whatever, just annoying. And you can't get rid of BGA with manual removal completely unfortunately since it likes to grow under the substrate as well, so full black out. Not just no lights, but towel/blanket covering as well so there is absolutely no light.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> no, no, I mean eating the BGA is toxic! since it's not an algae but a cyanobacteria lol it's not going to leech or anything, totally safe to peal off or leave there or whatever, just annoying. And you can't get rid of BGA with manual removal completely unfortunately since it likes to grow under the substrate as well, so full black out. Not just no lights, but towel/blanket covering as well so there is absolutely no light.


I was just wondering if my girls would eat the aglae >.< or whatever it is lol. And yes I understand you can't get rid of it manually, so I am blacking the entire tank out for now and covering it with a blanket and not feeding my girls. Like I said if I have to do a tank change in 3 days after keeping it blacked out that won't happen because I'm gone for a week for thanksgiving :\ the only tank change I can do is tomorrow unfortunately.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No, the girl's won't eat it. No real fish will eat it normally, Black mollies, SEA's and Rainbow gobies will eat it but they have to be starving to eat it, otherwise they won't normally eat it, no.

And yeah, the one day should be fine, it will at least slow the growth for now so that when you get back you can do the real 3 day one to try to be rid of it


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thank you Lilnaugrim! So I'll black it out for today and most of tomorrow, do the tank change later in the afternoon and then my tank will hopefully be safe enough for a week after which I'll do the real 3 day routine. After tomorrow is it safe to feed my girls for the week?

It's snowing a lot here btw :shock: which is where I'm heading up to lol


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ewww snow! lol Actually I don't mind snow unless I have to drive in it >.< then no, I'm good haha.

And yes your tank is safe, it's only toxic if it's eaten which fish will not do since they know it's toxic. And yes you can feed the girls but I would keep it to a minimum so as not to encourage more algae growth of any kind. And sounds like a good plan! ^_^


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks so much Lilnaugrim you're my hero oh wise one :v

I love the snow because it means snowboarding!!!!!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh lol, you're welcome! The only reason I know is because I'm going through the same thing and did some research lol. It can be amazing what google can hold for you! Of course not all is true, so I read multiple sources and pick out what they both agree on and it's usually fairly accurate. 

I tried snowboarding once but I broke it (cheap wal-mart one) when I accidentally slide over a rock protruding that I didn't know about and I had stopped there and it broke the board in half haha. Granted, again I was like 10 and it was cheap little piece of plastic but it wasn't fun trying to get up from a near split in 2 feet of snow XD

I also broke my wrist ice skating so I tend to not favor snow sports anymore, and I was sledding once and sledded right into a entire patch of Devils Walking Stick...yeah I still have a few scars from that, one went right down my face but I was too cold so I didn't realize I was bleeding until I ran down my clothes lol whoops. Fun times! That wasn't so bad, just a few band aids and I was good as new, but the breaking wrist was not!


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

So, how's it going? 


Yeah, uh my sorority did not go well. The shy girl turned out to be a big bully. They all are really aggressive and different sizes. Need to get rid of them now.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Pet, don't get rid of them, give them time. It takes roughly 2 weeks for them to sort themselves out. Provide lots of cover, black out the tank at night so it's harder for them to see and it keeps them calmer. Feed them twice a day to keep them happy and with the bullies, put them in time out! Put them in a cup/container floating until they calm down and they will! 1 week is my minimum time out session but you can just do a few day's to see if that helps, if not, do the full week. I've done addition two week Time out's, did that for Lady Deathstrike since her name was so fitting. She calmed right now and was the last in my sorority to pass.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Okay, well I want to wait for Snowbird to quarantine. but thank you. I didn't know it took that long. Chai and Raven went at it for 20 minutes, so I thought I should separate them as Chai is bigger than Raven and I didn't want a dead betta. Might go to PetCo or PetSmart this weekend and get more females.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

How many are there in your sorority, pet?


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

i have 5 girls, now. But they are all separated.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

5 is enough. Float them in the tank in containers for a few hours, that should help them a little. Once you separate them, they will act like they don't know each other again so try not to fully separate them for any reason.

But yes, it takes a while. There will be body slamming, chasing, nipping, biting and all that for roughly two weeks while they settle in. It's fine unless you see someone taking a huuuuge chunk of tail or scale out of a girl, then you can put her back in a cup, floating so she can look but not touch. But otherwise, it's all normal and you have to let it run it's course.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

Okay, I just want to do what's best for the girls. Chai took a section out of Raven's tail so that's why I took them all out. I want to get another one to replace Athena as I know she will kill the other girls.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Well it snowed all day it was awesome 8D I went to wolf creek and it was just pristine conditions today, got some great shredding done. I can see why you don't favor snow sports Lilnaugrim, lol. Ive broken my wrist before tobogganing and I have no idea how I haven't broken something snowboarding yet, but I'm sure it will happen. 

The girls seem to be doing fine, every time I raise the blanket a mini heat wave comes up lol it sure is toasty in they're tank! Thanks for the advice!


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I wish it snowed in Southern Cali. Nice to know that they are doing good!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm happy they were doing well!

Yeah I also broke my other wrist (left one) while cart-wheeling in the house...I mean, I was like 10 or something so..yeah lol. That was first and then two years later I broke my right one on the ice. So yeah, sports just hasn't been good to me. Got really bad shin splints from soccer. Almost broke my ankle in marching, instead I just sprained it real bad and four years later it's still killing me >.< My nickname in the fraternity (we all get nicknames when we go through) is Little Miss Whoops for good reason! haha. Of course our family has a tradition of cartoon character's so it fits that as well lol.

Have fun on your trip!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Alright, I'm back home. The girls did great while I was gone and are all healthy. The tank however has the blue green algae even worse so I started the treatment as soon as I got back, I'm not feeding them, no lights on and the tank is covered with a blanket. If there is anything else I need to do please advise. 

Happy holidays everyone


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas! :-D

You could dose SeaChem Flourish Excel, it's CO2 supplement and dosed daily it can help keep algae at bay while letting your plants....flourish lol. But it does have to be dosed daily which kind of is a pain for people like me who is not with their fish tanks all the time >.<

How was your trip?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I thought you could discontinue excel whenever you deemed it necessary? I used it for a while and it helped out a lot but I stopped a while back. Is it a problem that I stopped dosing?

It was nice!! It sure was rainy in Texas but I had a lot of fun visiting my family =) heading out again during the week of Christmas to Salt lake to do some more snowboarding! Also it snowed a LOT while I was gone and is supposed to snow all week here. The resorts are open and I'm so happy


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I don't know that much about Excel sooooo idk! Peachii would know though, she does lots of stuff with plants  and Glad you had fun! Yeah it's pretty rainy up here too.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Oh alright. I think I might start dosing it again just in case to see what happens. Weather has been crazy lately! Its kind of ironic its in the single digits outside and my girls are thriving in here at like 78 F lol


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

lol yeah, that's awesome though. Thankfully it's been around 30-40 here lately, pretty warm today! It was below freezing over the weekend though.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I blacked out for three days and it seems to have helped but dosing Excel again has helped out the most. That stuff is great! I am suspecting those clear whitish spots on Clare are spreading a little bit, I might just be paranoid but I'm going to start a thread about it just to be safe. They are mostly on her lips, this is what I'm talking about-  She is still eating, very active and always swimming around. I don't think its anywhere else besides behind here eyes maybe? Its hard to tell.


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

I hope that she clears up


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

PetMania said:


> I hope that she clears up


 Thank you!! :-D I know she will pull through this she has been through so much worse. Besides if it was a contagion, the other girls would have it or she would be ill by now I suspect. But who knows these little betta's are so delicate!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It looks like what my Rembrandt has :-/ which I never figured out what it is but it doesn't seem to be hurting him, he still flares like nuts and eats healthily, I've just sort of left him to be since it hasn't grown in a while. It started out as a little dot surrounding his "nose" vent and then grew from there. This picture is what he looks like now with it, it hasn't grown in size or height in the last three months so I've just stopped worrying about it.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> It looks like what my Rembrandt has :-/ which I never figured out what it is but it doesn't seem to be hurting him, he still flares like nuts and eats healthily, I've just sort of left him to be since it hasn't grown in a while. It started out as a little dot surrounding his "nose" vent and then grew from there. This picture is what he looks like now with it, it hasn't grown in size or height in the last three months so I've just stopped worrying about it.


Wow, we truly do share the same problems!! xD!! It sounded like you exactly described what she has. Likewise, no change in behavior/diet so I'm not worried, and it doesn't seem harmful at all. Mine hasn't grown in height or size just maybe one or two more specs over the last few weeks if that?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah that's how Remmy's started, just a few specs and that was fine for a while. Then it grew pretty quickly over a few weeks and then it's been like this for almost three months. Still watch your girl closely though because the area also resembles my other girl that just died who looks like this;








Granted my girl turned that greenish. But just watch out if she starts to look like that, pull her out immediately. But if she continues to look like Remmy, she should be okay. Apparently MattsBettas also has one that has that as well and we haven't figured out what it was.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Woh! What is that and why is it green? That poor girl  Its definitely clearish-white and not changing colors right now.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

We never figured it out. She passed within about ten hours, we think she might have been drying out perhaps and it caused her skin and scales to crack much like dried skin. But the green part....I have no idea, I want to ask a few people about it. I've since taken the tank down just in case but still, I want to know what it was!

I don't think your girl has that, but the mouth area is what made me think about it was all. I think your girl has more of what Remmy has. It's not cottony, right?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

No, god no! If it was Columnaris it would have probably spread by now and she would have passed, but the water parmas are great (never any NH3) and she is just being her happy Clare-y self. Its exactly if she had just drank a glass of milk and didn't wipe her lips xD! That's horrible about you're poor girl, but I don't think she is drying out of anything like that.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm starting to seriously consider treating her with Kanoplex just in case, its supposed to not be quite a radical antibiotic and hopefully it could clear up whats going on with her.. any thoughts? *coughcoughLilnaugrimcough*


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, you mind as well. It can't hurt her, just be careful when you take her out. Observe the girls and make sure there's no aggression or anything. And then of course slowly introduce her back in when she's ready to go. But one round couldn't hurt since it's definitely something going on with her. Healthy fish shouldn't look like that lol.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

The white film has now spread to her eyes and eyelids, but just barely. Its like a small white film of a spec on both eyes and behind the eyelids. I've now put her into a container and am treating her with Kanoplex. Its about a 1/4g tupperware container and I gave her like 3/4 a scoop.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm back from vacation now. The tank was covered in blue green algae, Derpy has some moderate fin rot and the white specs on Clare got even bigger. I'm going to treat them both with sc and Clare with Kanoplex again.

As for the bga infection, is there any other radical treatment I could do like removing all plants and cleansing them of it somehow?


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## annyann (Oct 28, 2013)

I would remove as much of the BGA as possible by hand and scrap the glass, pull off some of the worst effected leaves and such, take out any drift wood or decor and scrub them in some tank water or conditioned water. Then do a good 40% water change. Reduce the amount of light and food for a week or so and do it all again till the BGA is gone. I just had a battle with staghorn algae and had to do all this, but it's finally gone!
Sorry to hear about your fish, I've had good luck using Methylene Blue with my fish with such symptoms.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

annyann said:


> I would remove as much of the BGA as possible by hand and scrap the glass, pull off some of the worst effected leaves and such, take out any drift wood or decor and scrub them in some tank water or conditioned water. Then do a good 40% water change. Reduce the amount of light and food for a week or so and do it all again till the BGA is gone. I just had a battle with staghorn algae and had to do all this, but it's finally gone!
> Sorry to hear about your fish, I've had good luck using Methylene Blue with my fish with such symptoms.


Thank you for the reply Annyann! I just did a 90%+ water change, cleaned out my media filter, and removed as much of the BGA manually as possible. The tank is looking a lot better! Contrary to what BGA is supposed to do to plants, I came back from vacation to even more growth despite the fact some leaves were covered in it. I wish a type of fish would eat this stuff. I may end up doing another blackout, and I'll try that again. 

Thanks for the understanding =) despite her white specs on her eyes she is not blind and, as usual, perfectly healthy and happy. I don't know what happened to Derpy, this is the first instance of fin rot not related to bullying (at least I don't think) but she too is acting normal and healthy. I'm just going to keep her in the hospital container and treat her with SC and she should be good as new in no time. I do have Methylene Blue but that's a bit more radical of a treatment, isn't it? I'd prefer to use the least harmful medication on my girls before progressing to things like Mar2. 

Thanks so much for the help! Now that I'm back home for a while I'm going to finally get that small school of Otto's soon and maybe another girl or two.


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## annyann (Oct 28, 2013)

Sounds like you'll have your tank looking sparkling new again in no time! Cant wait to see the new girls you get. 

I think most people do consider Methylene Blue as an alternative if the other courses don't work, I'm no expert on treating fish. I'm just saying that I have used it with my Betta's and it has worked wonders for me. I have a double tail male that had fin rot and I also have sorority tank, thankfully though, none of my females have needed it except when first bought.

I have three Oto's and I love em' they are so cute with there little round bellies pressed up against the glass.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

annyann said:


> Sounds like you'll have your tank looking sparkling new again in no time! Cant wait to see the new girls you get.
> 
> I think most people do consider Methylene Blue as an alternative if the other courses don't work, I'm no expert on treating fish. I'm just saying that I have used it with my Betta's and it has worked wonders for me. I have a double tail male that had fin rot and I also have sorority tank, thankfully though, none of my females have needed it except when first bought.
> 
> I have three Oto's and I love em' they are so cute with there little round bellies pressed up against the glass.


Yes, I read Methyl blue was a great treatment for serious diseases but I think SC should be just fine =p I'm glad you've used it with success! Where did you get you're otto's? Locally or online? And yes I've thought they were adorable ever since I learned about them ^_^


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Welcome back! You can also use 200 mg erythromycin phosphate/10 gallons water. I'm sure you can find that somewhere online. I haven't actually gone looking for it yet. The other ways are what we've already been doing, reduce light, manual removal, and water changes.

Good luck with the otos and don't be discouraged if they die the first round, I know that's pretty common, happened with my otos too but now they're really happy :-D


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## annyann (Oct 28, 2013)

Phantom Miria said:


> Yes, I read Methyl blue was a great treatment for serious diseases but I think SC should be just fine =p I'm glad you've used it with success! Where did you get you're otto's? Locally or online? And yes I've thought they were adorable ever since I learned about them ^_^


I got mine at the local Petsmart, they have well-kept fish unlike the local Petco and Petland. But yeah, no deaths and they are very active. I got them thinking they were just gonna be there as the clean up crew, but there a cute and interesting part of the tank.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Today I went to the AQ shop and got two Otto's and another relatively mature VT betta. They are all un-named as of this moment but I'm thinking some up =p





I forgot how sensitive Otto's are, and I accidentally forgot to drip method them >.< I hope they are ok! I am SC'ing all new fish, I think the girl has a slightly torn fin. I'm boiling up some carrots for the Otto's and everyone is in quarantine for a while including Clarissa and Derpy right now.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Otos look good and they should be okayokay. I love the look of the new girl and can't wait to see her grow up more!


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi! Just wanted to say how much I like your NPT, very pretty! Good luck with the new fishies, too. 

Also, the mouth thing might have been cotton-mouth, a kind of columnaris that affects mouth/gills. I found a good broad-spectrum antibiotic worked for the one betta I had with it, who had the come-and-go white stuff for a little while.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Otos look good and they should be okayokay. I love the look of the new girl and can't wait to see her grow up more!


I hope so, they are acting a little bit lethargic, I feel really bad for not dripping them =\ I boiled some carrots up and dropped them in the cup though so I really hope they warm up. Thanks!! She is a really pretty girl =)



Aus said:


> Hi! Just wanted to say how much I like your NPT, very pretty! Good luck with the new fishies, too.
> 
> Also, the mouth thing might have been cotton-mouth, a kind of columnaris that affects mouth/gills. I found a good broad-spectrum antibiotic worked for the one betta I had with it, who had the come-and-go white stuff for a little while.


Thank you very much!! Since I've been treating her with Kanoplex it seems to be getting slightly better. What medication was it that you used? As usual, Clarissa is still very outgoing and acting normal. Hating the cup lol.

I came back to my room to find the new girls cup empty!! D: I was panicking and looking everywhere all over the floor and starting to get worried. Then, out of the corner of my eye I see a little head poking out of the densest part of the AQ and sure enough, the little rebel jumped out of her cup and into the aquarium!!!

I took her out as fast as I could, and put her back into the cup for QT, this time with a lid hehe. She loved the tank though xD!! She was totally exploring around with total wonder so I hope I can give her too a great home =) I also think she's earned herself a fitting name; Dashie after Rainbow Dash because she is very daring and her tail looks like a rainbow.

The behavior of the remaining betta's in the tank (Tessa and Ely) has changed slightly, Tessa is super bloated so I've stopped feeding her temporarily and she HATES IT. She will literally put her body sideways on top of a plant to yell at me 'FEED ME!' Ely has really been the loner outcast lately, but is still acting relatively playful and eating a lot. Its hard to tell but it seemed like her gills were almost bleeding the last time I checked, but its extremely hard to tell because she has blood red attributes being a cambo.


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## clairefish (Jul 30, 2013)

I had a problem with BGA a while back. It's completely gone now. I did a 24 hour blackout and increased water changes, but the thing that really did the trick was adding a decently sized airstone. My betta didn't like it (he got blown around a bit), but the BGA was gone in a week. I'm not sure if it just dislikes oxygen or what. I think maybe because bettas don't like current, and we baffle filter flow for their comfort, it makes a pleasant environment for BGA. For some reason the airstone did the trick for me.

Beautiful tank, love your girls  hope they are all happy and better soon!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

clairefish said:


> I had a problem with BGA a while back. It's completely gone now. I did a 24 hour blackout and increased water changes, but the thing that really did the trick was adding a decently sized airstone. My betta didn't like it (he got blown around a bit), but the BGA was gone in a week. I'm not sure if it just dislikes oxygen or what. I think maybe because bettas don't like current, and we baffle filter flow for their comfort, it makes a pleasant environment for BGA. For some reason the airstone did the trick for me.
> 
> Beautiful tank, love your girls  hope they are all happy and better soon!


Thanks for the advice!! I did this and the airstone really was the trick. I am no longer fighting BGA and if it comes back I'm confident I can just get rid of it again. Unfortunately, the Otto's died and didn't even last through the night BUT, it was a bad batch; I went back to the shop and even in they're aquarium Otto's were dead right there... does anyone have any suggestions for other tank cleaners?

The new girl is still doing great! I treated Clarissa with Kanoplex for almost a week and no real noticeable change in her condition... I'm really curious as to what fungal cure the member on the last page mentioned. I think it could definitely be a fungal thing, but she is still acting normal, healthy, and all girls are eating a TON.

I may end up going on a business trip for a month or so, so I'm looking into tank changing devices so my room mate doesn't have to use the 5Gal buckets like I do lol.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I used Myxazin:

http://www.waterlife.co.uk/seaquariums/myxazin.htm

Knocked the cotton mouth right on the head. Wonderful stuff, but I think not as mild on the fish as they claim, it seems to stress them out quite a bit. But yep, it works very well.


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Aus said:


> I used Myxazin:
> 
> http://www.waterlife.co.uk/seaquariums/myxazin.htm
> 
> Knocked the cotton mouth right on the head. Wonderful stuff, but I think not as mild on the fish as they claim, it seems to stress them out quite a bit. But yep, it works very well.


Alright thanks for the reply. I'm going to see if I can get it 1 day shipped. Next Tuesday I am leaving for a month for work, and will have my betta's under the care of my room mate who knows next to nothing about them. 

Could somebody PLEASE explain to me Metheylene blue dips, how to do them, dosing, and treatment period? I used a 4 cup tupperware container to dip her today because the growth seems to have gotten a bit worse, like a white cold sore on her lip and gills. I let the Meth blue mix for about 5 minutes, and then dipped her in. I added 13 drops for 4 cups, and it advises 10 drops per 5 gallons for 3 ppm of treatment, and 3 tsp for 5g of treatment but only for 10 seconds. It has no info on extended use. I literally stood there and watched her reaction extremely closely, and when she came up to the surface, starred at me, and batted her fins faster, I knew she was done with it. She was in for about a minute. I want to say her lip had a slight bubbly looking thing when she was dipped but its hard to tell. 

She is still acting normally and eating plenty so I'm confident in saying its some kind of fungul growth or something. It is on her lip and middle of her eyes.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Most dips and baths are anywhere from ten minutes to half an hour and some things more. I've never done method blue dips though so otherwise I can't advise. Try making a new thread about it?


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Okay well what she has is definitely cotton mouth and 'eye cloud' (I didn't know their was a term for the white spots on her eyes). What I've done is ordered some API fungus cure powder - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001OIQE5C/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Because I have prime I can treat her by the weekend and get at least 3 days before I leave...

She is still however acting vibrant, eating vigorously, and normal other wise. She is also getting old so perhaps her immune system is weakening; I got her in October 2012, and I received her from Petco so who knows how old she really is. Still I will never give up on her!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

I've ordered API Fungus cure and it came in today and I am treating her now. As usual, the packets are intended for 10gallon tanks so I had to kind of guess the dosage (I'm sure I overdosed her slightly) but I will see how it does and adjust accordingly. It got pretty good reviews and API's stuff has never let me down. She's still acting normal, maybe slightly less active because I've introduced her into this green slimey water lol.

I let the new girl in today and she has swam past every other girl multiple times and there isn't even so much as a single flare. Its like they don't even know she's there. She's eating, active and doing great. She seems to be well mannered and pretty normal. Tessa is a bit of a bully now, she often snaps at the other girls and I suspect she's the reason behind Derpy's half missing fin I had to heal up >:l I've never seen a betta like her, when I drop food in she literally juts herself to the food half way out of the water at lightning speed. Oh and her eyes have developed now and turned red :shock:


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## annyann (Oct 28, 2013)

I have used Metholene Blue many times, I use it every time I get a new Betta and always have had great results with it. It cured my double tail male of fin rot. I have never used it as a dip though, I follow the directions on the bottle, It's a three day treatment and so far for me it has worked on everything from fungus on the mouth to fin rot. I would recommend you just use the amount recommended for the three day period. Put in a little stress coat to.
What ever you decided I wish you luck with your Betta!


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Its hard for me to use 'reccomended amounts' because I don't have a hospital tank atm.. but I'm going to get one when I get back most likely. I really want to stock my tank up.

She seems to be clearing up a bit, and acting normally which is a great sign!! Thanks for the support =]


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi guys, I apologize for being away for so long. I have been in California for longer than anticipated due to work. I am extremely sad to report Clare has passed away... here is her memorial page- http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=3880137#post3880137

She will get a proper burial once I return home. In other news I hear from my room mate, every single other remaining female is doing wonderfully together, eating healthy and the aquarium is doing great. No nipping, fin rot or anything else which is good to hear with the new girl. I should be home by the 20th which is two days before my birthday.

Since this was such a devastating blow to my betta keeping, it made me consider a lot of things. But I am pretty sure I am going to continue betta keeping and continue with my sorority. Death is an imminent force for everyone and everything, and just part of it. It just hit especially hard because she was my first one, and we've been through so much together. When I get home I will most likely add some more females because the tank is down to four females (but like I said, all getting along fine), as well as some otto's.


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## annyann (Oct 28, 2013)

Sorry for your loss.
Glad your other Bettas are good.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm happy to hear most things are going alright at least, very sorry about Clare though! May she swim in peace


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## Phantom Miria (Mar 17, 2013)

hey guys, I know its been a while since an update but I've been very busy. I've been traveling a lot and my aquarium has just been declining in health. Ely died last week from severe fin rot and bullying... I did my best to nurse her but she just would not heal and was secluded before I left, and died while I was gone. The new girl is really chewing everyone up and the remaining three girls have fin rot. The blue green algae is back but I'm going to do my best to get rid of it. A lot of my nerites died at the same time a few weeks ago from what I think is just old age, nothing out of the ordinary.. they just up and died. I got two new nerites a few weeks ago that are bigger. I feel bad I can't be here all the time but I think the amount of upkeep required for this aquarium is just getting ridiculous.. its like it can't ever just function without me. I know I have too few girls now, but they either die from disease or kill each other, and I've really had enough of it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get out of betta keeping for now or i MIGHT just have one girl or something. If anyone is interested in any of my plants, aquascape items or anything let me know, I am going to sell them. At this point I can't really do much.. I'm blacking it out *again*, doing a tank change and having the AQ supplemented with stress coat. I love betta's and this has been a lot of fun but if I'm traveling for weeks on end, I can't keep up with the aquarium and I can't expect my room mate to know everything.. not to mention he works more than full time.


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## BettaLover1313 (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm very sorry to hear about the troubles you've been having with your tank and fish.


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