# OAK LEAVES... . . in lou of IAL?



## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*OAK LEAVES, *have been recommended to me by Old Fish Lady a while ago, and I have been using them religiously ever since...living in southern Ontario, we have PLENTY and various species as well! 

If you are like me and like using natural remedies and organic products when working with Bettas, you may be interested to know that *OAK LEAVES* (in my opinion, as well as many others), provides numerous benefits to out Betas, in _Spawning_, _Fin repair_, _Decreasing Stress_ and _improving overall well being_! 

This is due to the natural tannin the leafs release when exposed to the water, tinting the water color to a golden brown, without affecting visibility! Also mimicking their natural environment.

Oak Trees are native to Ontario, and there are various species found in North America and other parts of the world...to major species, Red Oaks and White Oaks..

I have chosen to experiment with Three OAKS in my area and compare the outcome that the leaves produce without toughing the jars at all! You can follow along with updates pf the water color changing.. 
*
I will document;*
_- Tannin color
- Leaf Composition/ Composure (In water and Out)
- Approximate float duration before sinking
- Any negative reactions to water..
- Daily water tests _

I will post *Daily Pics* of the progress of both day light, and back light exposure to truly see tannin effect in water. I have started by Taking a pic of the leaf in groups of *Fresh Leaf* from the tree, A *Dried Leaf,* and *Group of Dried Leafs*.

The leafs tested: (in order as they appear)

*WHITE OAK * *RED OAK ENGLISH OAK*

- Nice bright color - larger, sharp edges - smaller leaf
- Longer rounded lobes - Can get Very DARK! - very hard structure
- Resemble Betta -Bright Red in Fall - good for nests
- Can be large full grown - Can be HUGE full grown - light dried color


_NOTE: _
Keep in mind these leaves have died this summer. They have been on a branch that broke, therefore breaking the supply of nutrients to the leaves. This in turn kills the leaves and allows them to hang and dry in the air..

I will conduct another test similar to this in the fall, when *AMAZING COLORS* are produced in the leaves and it will be very interesting to see how this will affect the water...

Hey all around the word, Updates tomorrow...

*BETTA BOY*


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

I'll be very interested in your results. I have two huge red oak trees growing behind my deck and while I can't use any leaves that fall on the ground (my condo ground crew uses pesticides), TONS of them land directly on my deck. I'd rather bag them then rake them. Thanks for doing this.


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## Phoxly (Jun 14, 2010)

So do you just let them float on top? Is that bad to do? I was going to let my amazon sword leaves float on top after they fell off but figured that would be bad... D:


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*3 Hour Update*

I know I said I would update tomorrow, but I cant believe ho much color change has occurred with the *ENGLISH OAK* Already (far right). 
The* RED OAK* has had a slow start (middle) and the *WHITE OAK* is starting to color with a light orange (far right)..

Phoxly, if your referring to the alive plant (ASL) than it should be under the waters surface. These leaves are dead and used for medicinal purposes...
If your talking about dried leafs, I would have to do some research on them...But I have never used them so cannot say..

I will post some updates later tonight around (10PM eastern), as the progress has been significant in such shorts amount of time...I will then include, water readings and more info..


From CANADA...to around the world...

BETTA BOY


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Awesome.......I am so glad you are doing this and I will follow this thread closely.....


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## davyj0427 (Aug 1, 2010)

I too am interested in this thank you for taking the time to post this.
G


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*9 Hour Update*

Not much new, especially in the color, but I said* 10pm* eastern, so I thought I would report..

The leafs have started to slouch down applying pressure onto the stem base in all leaves, therefore dropping them closer to the bottom of the jar. The *RED OAK*, is not breaking down as fast as the outer jars (White, and English) therefore keeping its composure and staying upright.

- The water is reporting 0 ammonia, and stable levels otherwise.
- English Oak holds lead for strongest color..(yellow)
- All three are blotching differently. I will post pics tomorrow
(*White-* not much deterioration *Red*- large blotches, *English*- small black dots)

As I mentioned, there has not been much color change in the 3 jars since last update, yet there is an obvious difference in the release of tannins in all three..Keep in mind the natural sunlight is not coming in the window now and the jars all seem darker! The greatest color change is the English, with White and Red following respectively. We will have to see what Red will do in the future, IME RED gives off a darker huge, so we will see...

thanks for reading..

*BETA BOY*


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

I put one grade c indian almond leaf in a 1 gallon jug of water and it turn brown the next day. plus indian are so cheap even if you buy grade A.. Also I have never heared of bettas in the wild living in oak leaves, and there is know information or or research saying that oak leaves are equal better or close to indian almond leaves. They have been using indian almond leaves since the betta splenden it self. Why try to re invent the wheel, why mess with something that is not broke, All these top breeder's and not even that IBC showing and top betta fighters use indian almond leaves, and there's a reason why.

I am very open minded but without the fact's, I just don't see using oak leaves. It's just hear say and people just using what they have around them, but IAL is only 10.00 which last month's and month's Its not expensive to use IAL..


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*GENUS Quercus*

Hey for someone open minded, you don't seem to open to other people trying to expand their horizons...

Reinvent the wheel? This is mother nature were talking about here...FloridaBetta...just because the ancient bettas didn't have oak trees hanging over their ponds in ancient times, doesn't mean they weren't hangin over some other pond bringing the same benefits to other fish around the world...

There are over 600 species of OAK TREE aorund the world and many in YOUR area! To think that not one of these leaf specimen form the oak does NOT have equal or more chemical benefits to water or our betta would be ignorent...

I would love to see some of you research that shows OAK LEAVEs are NOT _"equal better or close to indian almond leaves". 
_
And $10.00? For a leaf?? ..Do you pay your your Bettas water too??? 

Now im even more excited to find the results of my experiment... I may also go collect more species and allow for a wider range of test results...

Here are some links that show other peoples success and use of these leaves...(many different varieties of OAK)
_
http://www.nespal.org/leaf litter.html

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanes...Y+Blackwater:+Make+your+Own+Oak+Leaf+Extract+

_IAL link, stating_ "Oak leaves are often used in aquariums as an alternative. "_
http://theaquariumwiki.com/Terminalia_catappa
_ 
BETTA BOY

_


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Update: 2 new leaves*

I have visited the local arboretum on the University and found two uncommon oaks, and thus added 2 new oak leaves to the lineup...almost a day behind from the start of the experiment (1:00pm eastern yesterday). 

Both new OAK species are form the _White Oaks_ group...The two new leaves are..









Quercus muehlenbergii- Chinquapin Oak









Quercus montana- Chestnut Oak

These two oaks are great as they really resemble an IAL....Especially the chestnut oak...actually looks very similar in shape, size and texture (hard when dried)










This is the new line up...same order, with Chinquapin and Chestnet respectively...










White Oak - Red Oak - English Oak - Chinquapin Oak - Chestnut Oak

I have noticed that the Red Oak still has not released much tannin in the water..however this could be due to the fact the leaf was not 100% dried out...I have used Red in the past and found it to release very DARK tannin.._I will do a side experiment and only use 100% dried red oak and test its tannin release in tat sense, as I know many of you have Red Oak on your property!_

BETTA BOY


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

This is so neat. Thank you for not giving up on red oak. Heheh.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

FloridaBettas239 said:


> I put one grade c indian almond leaf in a 1 gallon jug of water and it turn brown the next day. plus indian are so cheap even if you buy grade A.. Also I have never heared of bettas in the wild living in oak leaves, and there is know information or or research saying that oak leaves are equal better or close to indian almond leaves. They have been using indian almond leaves since the betta splenden it self. Why try to re invent the wheel, why mess with something that is not broke, All these top breeder's and not even that IBC showing and top betta fighters use indian almond leaves, and there's a reason why.
> 
> I am very open minded but without the fact's, I just don't see using oak leaves. It's just hear say and people just using what they have around them, but IAL is only 10.00 which last month's and month's Its not expensive to use IAL..


You also have to remember that this species is man made-domesticated and has not seen its natural habitat waters, like most of the farm raised fish we keep in our homes.

True enough that oak trees may not be in their native habitat but the Betta may not know this....I am of the opinion that if I can get the same results from local products that are often free and close at hand...I will keep that $10.00 in my pocket and use it for something else....lol.....

To each their own.....and I have been using native oak leaf instead of IAL for years and have yet to have any problems and I see the same results, but-I will agree that the tannin are much darker with one IAL than my native oak leaf unless I use a lot of them...but they are free so it is a non-issue for me......

...too bad Leo Buss didn't publish his spectrographic analysis on oak leaves that concluded that oak was 99% identical to almond chemically and the fish can't tell the difference anyway.....


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

BettaBoy84 said:


> Hey for someone open minded, you don't seem to open to other people trying to expand their horizons...
> 
> Reinvent the wheel? This is mother nature were talking about here...FloridaBetta...just because the ancient bettas didn't have oak trees hanging over their ponds in ancient times, doesn't mean they weren't hangin over some other pond bringing the same benefits to other fish around the world...
> 
> ...


I am very open minded, You or someone show me the proof. The fact's that they are equal or greater than IAL then cool I will walk out in my yard and grab some...
The next thing is it's 10.00 dollars for 200 gram's of IAL. LoL 10.00 for one leaf I know your not that ignorant... And of course I pay for my bettas water if you want to be ignorant, when you use water it goes on your electric bill or water bill. So yes you pay for the water. LoL funny guy you...


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## Williamg (Aug 17, 2010)

Hey *BettaBoy84*, I'm looking forward to seeing your results on this experiment, but the photos of your last post are not showing up. I don't know if it is my computer or if it is an error on your side. And if you don't mind me asking, could someone explain the advantages of the tannin in the water and what not? (Not meaning to hijack the thread ;-)) And at *FloridaBettas239* you may not be trying too, but you are sounding like a real female dog. I believe the whole point of this thread is to show the effects of the oak leaves and see how they compare. He has shown some evidence of the positive effects they have had, just look at the threads he has linked. Other member has posted positive results too, just look at Oldfishlady’s post. This is also BettaBoy84's thread, so in reality it is *YOUR* responsibility to find the proof that he is wrong, or any negative effects of oak leaves to make the thread as informative as possible, not his to find the proof that he is right, to which end he has done more than you anyways. If you want to be helpful, defend your point with some *evidence*, maybe even dish out the money the buy some IAL and show how much better they are that would be nice. And I’m sorry; I’m with *oldfishlady* and *BettaBoy84 *on this one, 10 bucks for some leaves? Somebody somewhere is making a lot of money. 
Williamg


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks WillIamg..great to see your interest in the thread, i appreciate your support on the topic...

Good to see your interest in the thread as well FloridaBetta...Also good to know that 10.00 gets you more than one leaf..

I will keep you all posted on the new leafs I added to the experiment, they both already surpass the other species in the genre...I like their shape, size and durability. They also seem to be releasing more tannin already in their first day... (I will post pics later)

I will be going north tomorrow and hopefully finding more varieties of oak leaves..could be hard as the more uncommon are hard to find just by wandering lol..

There has also been some great coloration in the water of the Chestnut Oak, but I will wait to post pics, until greater coloration occurs in all 5 jars...

Keep up the interest!
*
BETTA BOY*

Also, I have new fry in my planted tank, check my other thread in breeding... 
Indoor Spawning Tank


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re Post of PICS*

Hey, I am reposing the Pics of the new leaves as some are unable to see them..I guess I will just add them like I did originally and stop trying to be so creative in integrating them into my message.. lol..hope this works,

Enjoy,

BETTA BOY


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*New Leafs and New Lineup...*

Haven't Changed the 3 original...Still same 3 jars, 3 leafs in each jar, just added 2 new jars 3 leafs in each..


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

Let me know if others saw the previous pics, or of this is the first time everyone is seeing them..may be a mac/pc thing, most likely its just me..lol...

BETTA BOY


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## Welsh (Apr 13, 2010)

I am actually really interested in this thread, I've tried looking for IAL for months now and got told oak leaves are pretty much the same but I'v never had the balls to try it lol plus I didn't even know there were so many types of oak trees, I am ashamed to say I only thought there was one and thats down the street from me haha so make sure you keep us updated bettaboy


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## Williamg (Aug 17, 2010)

I see them now BettaBoy84. LOL, I'm on a PC so that may be it.


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

Look if oak work's for you, and you like it good for you the more power to ya. I'm going to use what the fish live in and what has been proven to work, and what top breeders use. IAL is what works for me and everyone else. Just like you need a job and want people to spend money at your bosses company so you have a job. It's all about keeping the economy going. Keeping aquatic life is not cheap so I don't no why people are acting like 10.00 every 6 - 10 months is a lot. Just one little bottle of prime is 10.00 or more and IAL is a natural conditioner, as long as you let the water age or don't have chlorine in your water. 
Amy and her family get these leaves and sort them wash them and bag them, she has her kids doing it as a responsibility type thing and they work together as a family. If I can throw a little money her way. And help me and the fish. I mean you can get 3 - 4 months worth for what a pack soda cost. You act like people are asking an arm or leg for the leaves. Anyway I hate to hear people cry so if it works for thumbs up, for using what resources you have around you and experimenting before using a specific leaf...


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

FloridaBettas239 said:


> Look if oak work's for you, and you like it good for you the more power to ya. I'm going to use what the fish live in and what has been proven to work, and what top breeders use. IAL is what works for me and everyone else. Just like you need a job and want people to spend money at your bosses company so you have a job. It's all about keeping the economy going. Keeping aquatic life is not cheap so I don't no why people are acting like 10.00 every 6 - 10 months is a lot. Just one little bottle of prime is 10.00 or more and IAL is a natural conditioner, as long as you let the water age or don't have chlorine in your water.
> Amy and her family get these leaves and sort them wash them and bag them, she has her kids doing it as a responsibility type thing and they work together as a family. If I can throw a little money her way. And help me and the fish. I mean you can get 3 - 4 months worth for what a pack soda cost. You act like people are asking an arm or leg for the leaves. Anyway I hate to hear people cry so if it works for thumbs up, for using what resources you have around you and experimenting before using a specific leaf...


 I agree with you on the price of leaves but if they both work whats the poin of fighting?

You say you're open minded but in most of the posts I've seen it dosen't look like it.

I think you're relying on the IBC and top breeders way to much. Everyone has their way of doing things.

I REALLY don't mean to sound rude and I hope we can all be friends here seeing how we are a community


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*UPDATE: New Color Changes*

Hey All, Thanks for everyone's interest in the experiment!

Its amazing to see the progress of the chestnut oak leaves as I just added them to the lineup yesterday and have already seen impressive changes...

I also like the way the leaf holds in the water...You can really see the dark tannin color compared to the English oak, with the yellow tannin..

Although the Chinquapin Oak leaves are very hard when dried and do not look like they will crumble, so this could be another reason why it is taking longer for the leaf to release its tannins...Sorry to the Red Oak fans, who are going to have to be patient with the release of tannins lol...be patient! They may have the best results in the end!

As some of you may know, I am heading north this week for a few days to collect some drift wood on a snorkeling/scuba expedition, in Georgian bay Ontario for my 75 gallon sorority tank... i will be documenting the underwater experience taking shots of all things exciting lol!

I will continue with the OAK posts in a few days, sure to be some exciting new results..Also included will be a full scale water test of all jars, showing PH levels, Nitrate Levels, Ammonia, etc...And good tests as well! lol

Stay interested and keep reading!

Aslo keep up witht he dailt betta when im gone!

BETTA BOY


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I am sure you did this...but make sure you have a "control" container of water too, especially for water testing......to see if pH is affected and anything air born that can affect the rest...

Next experiment that would be neat, is adding the same leaf to different jar but tearing them up first to see if that helps/changes in tannin release, speeds decay...etc......just a thought...

Good luck and be careful scuba diving....that sounds like so much fun........


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

Well heck, I live pretty close to Cheesequake National Park and I know it pretty well. If I need other oaks I bet I can find them there. I don't think there's a law against collecting dead leaves. Still... GO red oak!


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

vaygirl said:


> Well heck, I live pretty close to Cheesequake National Park and I know it pretty well. If I need other oaks I bet I can find them there. I don't think there's a law against collecting dead leaves. Still... GO red oak!


 
If your anything like me you'll take a pretty rock if you see it too... LOL.

Also gotta agree with MrVampire, FB you seem very interested in the IBC which is awesome, but gotta remember that every persons betta doesn't have to be perfect. Theres a lot of younger people on this website - not everyone wants 10 dollar imported leaves when theirs plenty in the backyard!! This thread is for OAK leaves, not for you to tell us why you dont see the point in them. Sorry if I sound rude but you must be more considerate of financials, and plain common sense. IAL are cool, but oak works fine!


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Update: Tanin extreme*

Thought I would show an update of the new arrivals...very interesting color changes, and over night....wow....Chinquapin will definitely start being used in my tanks (as of now)...

Be sure to check out tomorrows update...*water testing, *more *pics*, and *NEW LEAF* (Bur Oak)!

Thanks for reading...

BETTA BOY


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## ReyesBetta (Aug 31, 2010)

I've always used oak leaves in my bettas tank I go out and collect them on tank cleaning days.


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Bur Oak Addition*

*The New Line Up*; now includes a _Bur Oak_, on the far right side..

It is 3 Days behind, but am curious of its results..

I am going out to get a new water testing kit as mine is missing things and want to be thorough. To test the water I will be using separate containers I made, Larger with more leaves but still all containing same amounts of _water_ and _# of leaves._
_*The Water Testing*;_ will mainly show ammonia, bu also indicate other levels such as PH etc...Please PM me or post any additional water testing you wish to see done...

Below is a post of the new tannin result jars, containing the new Bur Leafs.. I love the two I added earlier in the post, the Chestnut and Chinquapin...AMAZING colors! And sooo fast to change, (remember they were put in 2 days later and surpassed the colors overnight...
_
*Red Oak*:_ WTF? I cant believe the slow release of tannins!?!But as I said I will be conducting a side experiment using leaves of different "dryness" , as I believe the Oak leaves I used in the larger scale test were not fully dried out like the others...As I mentioned I have used them before and was happy with their color outcome in the water.

The test will include 3 jars with different dried leaves (all as dried as I can find) from different RED OAKS, in different areas over 2 hours apart driving distance...
This will hopefully give me wider range of possible outcomes and maybe will show more color...or this is the nature of the Red Oak, slow release...well see...


ENJOY...

BETTA BOY


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Results are in!!*

*CONCLUSION!!
*
Finally! The Results are IN!

After a long wait, after many pictures, water tests and color checks, I have finally settled on a preferred leaf!

I have found the water results were very similar, but i will mention some of the interesting things found in the test!

*TANNIN-*
The color of all water was drastically different. But some leafs stood out over others...The Red oak gave off a yellow tint, the chinquapin gave off a dark red tannin. The white pine gave off a darker yellow tint and the bur oak had an orange hue..The pictures display this more but it was interesting to see how fast the tannin was released as well.. The Chinquapin was the fastest to release the tannin and had over night color change, surpassing all other leaves in the test.
The latest pictures are in the prior posts, there was little difference in color after that point.

*White Discretion- *This was the only area where there was slight difference in the water. Some leaves gave off a lot of white discharge from the moisture in the leaves. There was almost none from the chinqiapin oak, however all others had this. 

*Ammonia*- All jars had high results of ammonia after testing the waters, but there was little to no difference in the amount from leaf to leaf. 

RESULT:

Overall all leaves did give off great tannin. However the release and color of tannin depends on the specific leaf it self. If the leaf is not totally dry, or has any moisture left in it, there will be little tannin released.
Where the leaves are leaft dead opn a tree and then used 100% dry, there is great difference in the tannins in water. Also, I will be trying this experiement again soon using leaves that have changed with fall color. This may also have a drastic effect.

*Choice:* *Chinquapin Oak*- (pictured below)

*Reasons- *
-Great composure. The leaf itself holds composure even months after in water. 
-There is also little to no milky discharge the come from the leaf after being exposed to water.
-Instant Color. There is little need to pre-soak these leaves, to obtain fast changes in color and added effects, as they release over night.
- Great color. Even before fall color Change the leaves have great colors.

*Other Good choices-*
- IMO, I will be using Chinquapin from now on solely, but i also use red if they are extremely dry with some color, and English oak was also great as it kept composure and had a fast tannin result as well. However, both leaves had slight milky discharge (not as much as others) but also didn't have very dark color in water. This however could be achieved by uisng more leaves.

Hope you Enjoyed!

Look forward to the Fall color test edition...

BETTA BOY


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Great job.....

At what stage did you see the ammonia (expected due to decomp) and did you see ammonia readings in the control jar of water
Any pH changes at all or other water pram changes like nitrite and nitrate

That is interesting about the white substance-I have never noticed that with mine...but I also don't know the species......mine are just native oak trees....lol...


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## BlueHaven (Jul 17, 2010)

Waah, cool idea! 
Thanks for posting it, this will help me since I can't really find away of ordering iol online....right now!

There is a water oak tree in the backyard, i'm going to use these leaves. I picked some brown ones off the ground and am testing them now. 

What about the time that you can use each type before replacing to a new one? Since they eventually start to decompose and cause ammonia to go up. I wonder if oak leaves can be used (with other things) in cycling fishless tanks.....?


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## wystearya (Sep 27, 2010)

Living in West Virigina and with it being the start of fall, I have plenty of Oak leaves around. I did have an idea though...

What about making "tannin tea"? By this I mean take some oak leave of choice, crush them, and seep in boiling water. Then of course straining the leaf bits out of the water (using a coffee filter works). I actually gave this a try today with what I believe are either Red or Black Oak leaves in a small coffee cup. The result was a nice-smelling light tea colored water. I didn't think to check the pH though. 

Would this not be a quicker way to release the tannins without the worry of rotting leaves? Obviously the water would then need to be cooled, but still.

Anyone with more savvy at this want to give it a try? Or maybe tell my why it would not be a good idea?

I am curious though... For those that use Oak (or other) leaves for Bettas, do you use enough so that the tank water is actually tea colored? Or just a little bit of the tannin laden water? Is there a benifit to using the whole leaves rather than my proposed "tea" method?

I'm no breeder, I just have a petstore fish. Still I'd love to keep him as happy and healthy as possible.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

You can make tea tannins by boiling the leaves and they are fine, however, once you boil them you kill some of the good/beneficial properties that can be helpful...especially if you are using it as part of a treatment...but if you just want the tannins- boiling is just fine. Be sure and refrigerate unused water so it will keep longer and just nuke it to get it to temp

I like the tea/amber colored water and I also like the leaves in my tanks too and I allow them to rot and decay and with all the plants in my tanks they use the ammonia as plant food before it can be harmful to the livestock, the decay also help produce CO2 for the plants and infusoria free range food for fry.
The shrimp and snails help with break down as well.

You can just add a oak leaf or two to your tank and remove and replace weekly


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## Posaune (Sep 17, 2010)

Awesome thread, there are oak trees abundant in Fargo  So, my question is this: Would an apple snail be able to eat the decaying oak leaf? 

I currently have a piece of wood in my tank, plus a few plants. I recently obtained two apple snails and found pond snails on my water hyacinth. Looking up my species of apple snail, it says it prefers to feed on rotting plant material or fish food (hence the question about the leaf ) I'm assuming if I leave the leaf in, the plants would use some of the ammonia and I could use ammolock to take care of the rest?


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

I have been using Chestnut oak lately...and I have found that the ammonia rises sturdy within 3-5 days to a very high number lol...but...the PH is very low. The higher the ammonia the lower PH with this leaf.. When using this leaf, I fins with regular water changes the PH stays low, and the ammonia wont rise much at all...

Im going to be trying a few more soon..Chestnut oak , Chinquapin oak and one one tree I am still unsure of exact type....


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