# Treating fin rot after Maracyn 2.



## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Hey guys I am new to this site and this is my first post:-D. I have a male betta with fin rot. He looks similar to this betta but with a little more fraying on the tail:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwftbzgb5r1qe2rwfo1_500.jpg
(sorry I couldn't take a good pic of him so I just used this one)
He is in a 10 gallon QT tank and I just finished his treatment of maracyn 2. His tail doesn't look any worse than before the treatment, but it doesn't look much better either. I have to admit that the water quality wasn't the best during the treatment. The ammonia rose to 0.02ppm for a day or so but I didn't want to change the water because I was worried it would remove the medicine. I don't think his fin rot is cured because I can still see some black on his top and bottom fins. What should I do next? I am going to do a 50% water change tomorrow and then 20% changes every 2 or 3 days to keep water quality good. My question is should I add new medicine right away or should I wait a week or so to let my betta rest? Also, should I treat with maracyn 1 and 2 this time or try a different medicine? If so, what other medicine should I use? Don't say salt and clean water because I tried that and it didn't work. I'm very confused and I want the best for my betta so please help me! Thanks


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Please reply! I really need help and I've asked on so many sites but no one seems to answer my questions. Please help me!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Leopardfire and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear about your guy. 

A very good medication for fin rot is API Triple Sulfa. However, if you think you may have any allergies to sulfa drugs, DO NOT USE. Instead, try API Tetracycline. 

As you guessed, it's probably a good idea to give him a week or so in clean water to clear his system of the Maracyn-2. Make sure when you medicate that you remove any activated carbon in your filter, as this just sucks the meds out of the water.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks so much! I went and got the triple sulfa today. My betta's fin rot got drastically worse in his 1 day without maracyn so I don't know how long I can wait between the medicines. Also, I found out that my tap water contains 0.03ppm ammonia which is causing ammonia levels in my tank to rise after each water change. I bought some TopFin ammonia remover so hopefully that will get rid of it. Should i wait until the ammonia is at 0 before adding the medicine? I don't know how long that will take and I can't do any water changes to help it because my water has ammonia.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Leopardfire. I have a suggestion: instead of having to add two different chemicals to your water (water conditioner and the ammonia remover), get a bottle of Seachem Prime. It's both water conditioner AND it will detoxify the ammonia as well. Less work for you. However, levels of ammonia will still show up on any water tests because any product that neutralizes ammonia doesn't exactly get rid of it. It just binds with the ammonia and turns it into the less toxic ammonium.

Under ordinary circumstances, I would say to wait a week for your betta to get rid of the Maracyn in his system. But if his fin rot has worsened already, then if you feel comfortable with the idea, we can go ahead and put him into the Triple Sulfa.

It's probably best to go ahead and add the meds tonight so he doesn't get any worse.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks I'm defiantly going to do that. I'm going to put the medicine in tonight but I wanted to give my betta at least a small break. 
My final question is about the pH. The pH is at 8.5 which is super high. My other tanks are at 7.5 but for some reason this one is much higher. The only reason I can think of is the sand I recently added since non of my other tanks have this problem. It is normal petco sand not live or anything so I'm not sure why it would affect the pH. Anyway is there anything I can do to fix the pH and if not, can my betta be okay at 8.5?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Leopardfire, the sand was definitely just Petco? Are you doubly sure it wasn't a special sand for African cichlids? That kind of sand would cause the pH to skyrocket because it's mostly aragonite and crushed coral. Otherwise . . . I can't imagine why just plain Petco sand would do that. 

There are three ways to safely lower the pH in your betta's tank.

1) Indian Almond Leaf. Plop a leaf in there and let it work its magic. However, most pet/fish stores don't carry IAL so you'll have to order online (try eBay, Amy Ketapang)

2) Blackwater extract. You can buy this at Petco or Petsmart. It's just a bottle of tannins and humic extracts. I know Tetra has one although I prefer Kent's if you can find it.

3) Driftwood. Like the IAL, it releases tannins and humic acids that soften the water and acidify it, lowering the pH.

I wonder . . . now that I think about it, I wonder if the sand didn't mess up your KH (carbonate hardness) . . . hmm.

Anyways, if your betta is acting normally he probably will be okay at that high of a pH but there's also a possibility that the pH itself is what is causing his fin rot. Sometimes the wrong pH for the wrong fish can cause fin deterioration.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks so much! I looked everywhere but I could never find a treatment for high pH. The sand I got was kind of expensive so it might have been something special but I'm not sure. 
I don't really know much about carbonate hardness, so what are good parameters for a betta tank? I think the KH is pretty high so is this bad for fish? If it is bad, is there something I can do to fix it? Sorry for asking so many questions, but I'm new to aquariums and I want the best for my betta.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

What color is the sand? Is it more or less natural colored? As far as I know, all cichlid sands are natural or a salt-and-pepper look. 

Carbonate hardness (KH) regulates your pH. I don't know too much myself but I know that if you have low KH, then your pH will fluctuate a lot which is bad. If you have high pH then products designed to lower pH wouldn't work anyway (pH uppers/downers). 

Good parameters for KH in a betta tank are around 3-8 KH. 

Depending on what kind of tests you use to test your water, your KH reading may be listed as its "alkalinity" number. I know my Tetra 5 in 1 strips list it that way. But you can also get API GH/KH liquid tests too. 

For the most part, you don't really need to worry about KH unless your pH is fluctuating for no apparent reason. But I would be interested to know what kind of sand you have because I'm really beginning to wonder if it was cichlid sand. I can't think of any other reason why the pH would go so high.


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## snazy (Oct 8, 2011)

Hi there. Do you have a filter in the tank? If yes, then the filter will eventually remove the ammonia from the water. You just need conditioner at water changes that also removes ammonia and chloramines but the effect lasts about 24 hours max, so a cycled aquarium with filter in this case is a must. Or 100% water changes with prime every 24 hours, which will stress the hell out of the fish but will keep the ammonia at bay. Also, the higher the Ph, the more toxic the ammonia is. Normally, once the fish lives in a cycled tank with no ammonia and nitrIte, their immune system will fight of most diseases themselves. But a tank with no heater or filter is bound to have issues early or later, especially when your tap water has ammonia.

Please also note that no matter how much you treat, the fish will not recover from sickness if there is ammonia or nitrItes in the water. It's like living in the nuclear reactor in japan and being treated hydratant cream for the burns.
You said that you used maracyn 2 so far. This is a gram negative bacteria treatment and if he didn't get better, try using antibiotic for gram positive bacteria instead, or a broad spectrum that treats both. I wouldn't jump to fungal medication, becauce fungus is a consequence of bacterial or parasitic infection and is the last type of treatment to try, unless it is an antibiotic for bacterial treatment too.
The Ph is a bit on the high side but do not use chemicals as they make your Ph fluctuate and will kill the fish. Someone already suggested a few options but dried almond leaves(ebay is pretty cheap) is the best option and many betta breeders use this in their tanks. It also has some antibiotic and antiseptic properties and the tannins in the water resembles the betta's natural habitat. They love it.
If the tap water Ph and the Ph in your other tanks differ from this one a lot, then your new sand may Ph alterering agents as someone already suggested and it's better if you replace it. Here where I live, a bag of play sand from Argos is super cheap, safe for fish, but just needs the extra washing.

Good luck with the treatment. Hope your betta recovers quickly


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. I will get almond leaves for the pH but I'm not sure what to do about the ammonia.
My tank used to be cycled, but I needed the filter for another tank that I was just starting that had serious ammonia problems. (I know it was bad to get fish without a proper cycle, but I thought I could handle it. I couldn't and now they are dying like crazy. It know now I was stupid and I will defiantly cycle next time.) 
Anyway now the tank that my betta is in has a new uncycled filter. (aqua clear 30. It was meant for my other tank but then I traded them.) I was hoping there would be enough bacteria left in the substrate to keep the ammonia under control, but since there is a good amount of ammonia in my water, I'm having problems. My tank is constantly at 0.02ppm ammonia and I can't do water changes since the ammonia in my water just makes it worse. I'm not sure prime would work because the bacteria aren't plentiful enough to get rid of the ammonia fast enough. I don't know what to do to get rid of it!
My betta's fin rot is getting bad fast so I added my first treatment of triple sulfa today. I'm thinking about moving the old filter back to my betta's tank, but there are still fish in the other tank and I'm worried they would die if I took away the filter. (They will probably all die anyway but I'm trying to save them.) 
I just don't know what I can do to get rid of the ammonia fast so I can treat my betta. There's no safe water anywhere! Is there a filter I could get that removes ammonia or something?


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## snazy (Oct 8, 2011)

First of all, ammonia causes similar fin rot to the bacterial infection and I can't understand why is everyone willing to treat with medication, but not removing the cause of the sickness. Once you remove the ammonia issue, the fin rot can heal itself. Dosing the tank with medication when there's ammonia in it can and probably will kill your fish. You need to sort the ammonia problem!!!
Normally, when getting a second tank you should not exchange the filters leaving one tank uncycled with potential problems to your fish. The best thing to do to seed a new filter is to take max 1/3rd of the sponges of the cycled filter/mature filter and squeeze them into the new/uncycled filter. This will jump start the cycle in the new tank but you need to add fish very slowly with regular water changes until the bacteria has multiplied enough to filter the bioload fast enough.
Alternatively, instead of adding fish slowly, buy yourself a pure ammonia bottle with no additives(water+ammonia only solution!!!!) and dose ammonia instead of risking fish. This is called fishless cycle and there is plenty of information how to do it and how much to dose. It's the humane way to go.

What you can do at the moment is take some sponge, no more than 1/3rd of it and put it into the betta's filter. If this doesn't instantly cycle it, it will at least help the tank cycle a lot faster. Do not treat until the ammonia/nitrites are at 0, it is risky for the fish but if it makes you feel comfortable, then do.

Also, if the fish in the other tank have a contagious disease(you mentioned them dying), then it's not advisable to use anything from that tank to put into the betta's tank until they are cured.


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## snazy (Oct 8, 2011)

> Is there a filter I could get that removes ammonia or something?


Only a cycled filter removes ammonia and it's product nitrItes. If you can't use sponges/media from your other tank(presuming the filter is cycled), then ask someone that has a tank to give you some. Maybe the shop can help you out with an old filter sponge?


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

I put some medication in earlier today, but should I stop that and wait untill I clear the ammonia? I heard that stopping meds part way is bad and can lead to bacterial resistance to that med. I put some ammonia remover in to temporarily lessen the effects of the ammonia. I have some tetra safestart, so do you think I should add that to the filter to jump start the cycle? Also, do you think Petco/Petsmart would help me out with a sponge? They are the only pet stores that I know of in my area.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Stopping meds partway isn't a good idea because yes, it can lead to a resistance.

I would be reluctant to accept a sponge from Petsmart/Petco because their tanks often have disease. You would be better off to use Seachem Stability to jumpstart the tank. But depending on the size of the tank, it doesn't really matter if it is cycled if the only occupant is going to be one betta. The best way to keep ammonia down is with water changes. Again, since you have ammonia in your tap water I'd recommend using Prime to help neutralize the ammonia and turn it into the less toxic ammonium.

For the filter issue, keep the filter in whichever tank has the most fish in it.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Okay so if I put the prime into the tap water before I put it in, then it won't harm my betta. That would be useful because then I could keep the ammonia down in both my tanks. Right now I can't really change the water because the ammonia gets worse after each change.
Also, if I put ammonia neutralizer into my water when I added the meds, will that be enough to make the meds effective? I know they won't really work if the water is bad.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You can try that and see if the ammonia neutralizer brings the levels down. How are you testing for ammonia? Are you using strips or liquid drops? I believe you will still get a reading for ammonia if you use the drops because ammonium will still show up. 

Prime pretty much does it all as a water conditioner.


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## snazy (Oct 8, 2011)

You've only put the first dose, so there's hardly any build up of the medication to cause bacteria resistance, plus, you don't know what exactly bacteria you are treating for, if that's the cause at all. 



> Also, if I put ammonia neutralizer into my water when I added the meds, will that be enough to make the meds effective? I know they won't really work if the water is bad.



It's not a 100% sure as you've no way of testing at home but presuming that it does what it says on the bottle, you need to dose prime every day to make sure it keeps the ammonia in a non-toxic state. As far as I remember this is a higher dosage of Prime than usual, treating the whole tank each time. This should be considered a very temporary solution.. I once over washed my filter sponges causing an ammonia spike and used Ammo Lock, it absolutely made no difference and the fish were still in poor state.
Whether the meds will be effective depends on whether they contain the right ingredient to cure what your betta has, but it won't go away if there's ammonia in the tank, could relieve him though.

As for the fish store, I can't tell but you can certainly ask. How about getting bits of the sponge of your own cycled filter in the other tank?



> Again, since you have ammonia in your tap water I'd recommend using Prime to help neutralize the ammonia and turn it into the less toxic ammonium.


Prime will convert the ammonia to a different substance for about 24 hours, then you need to dose the tank with a full dose again every day. This is a lot of chemicals for a fish tank but temporarily, until you get the filters cycled it may help the fish.



> You can try that and see if the ammonia neutralizer brings the levels down. How are you testing for ammonia? Are you using strips or liquid drops? I believe you will still get a reading for ammonia if you use the drops because ammonium will still show up.


Prime does not neutralize the ammonia for good, it's a temporary shot in the dark and you can never be sure it has converted all of it as advertised. It's not converted to ammonium exactly but a different non-toxic substance, but yes, it does show up on a test.

Good luck. Hope all you fish recover and you get those tanks cycled asap


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Okay, well I guess I will try using prime. I think I had a partial cycle till I did a 50% water change and squeezed out my filter. That probably messed up everything. Would it be better to add the prime directly into the tank or do a 25% water change and add the prime to the tap water before putting it in?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

In your case, I would use it both as a conditioner (so add it to the water change water) and also add it to the tank as well to detoxify the ammonia that's already in there.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Ok, thanks. How soon do you think I should get it? I have TopFin ammonia remover so can I wait a few days for prime or is it best to get it as soon as possible?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You can get Prime whenever it is most convenient for you. If you do get it soon though, you don't have to use both water conditioner and the ammonia remover.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

I heard that amino chips or something can take ammonia out of water. Some people said that they prepared the water early and ran a filter with the chips in it for a day to remove ammonia from tap water. Is this something I should try to help things long term?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh yes! I forgot about ammo chips, also known as zeolite. You use these instead of activated carbon. What kind of filter do you have? Some filters you may have to get a filter bag and fill it with zeolite and use that instead of the regular filter cartridge. Other filters, you just take out the carbon and put a pre-prepared zeolite cartridge in.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

I have an aqua clear 30 for my tank. It has activated carbon in its own packet that you have to add. I removed the carbon packet during the treatment so it won't affect the meds. Would ammo chips take out the meds like carbon does? If they don't, should I get those for my tanks to help with the ammonia? They wouldn't prevent a cycle, would they?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aquaclear makes special ammonia inserts for their filters. Petsmart or Petco should have them. I don't *think* they take out meds because of they're not designed to adsorb like that but I'm not 100% sure.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Ok I'm going to petsmart so I will get some of those along with the prime. I took some pics of my betta with fin rot. He's been in the triple sulfa for 24 hours. How does he look? How severe would you say his fin rot is?
http://www.tumblr.com/dashboard (it's the top 5 posts. I couldn't figure out how to post pics directly sorry)


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm sorry, I can't see the pics.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)




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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

No, still not working, darn it.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

I don't know how to post my own pics but he looks kind of like this but with deeper gashes on the tail. The deepest ones go about halfway. 

http://i44.tinypic.com/dnzs4j.jpg 
http://i44.tinypic.com/anj8sy.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qcm4jo.jpg

How bad would you say he is?


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Does this work? I don't know how to post my own pics but he looks kind of like this but with deeper gashes on the tail. The deepest ones go about halfway. 

http://i44.tinypic.com/dnzs4j.jpg 
http://i44.tinypic.com/anj8sy.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qcm4jo.jpg

How bad would you say he is?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Do you see blackened edges where the tears are? And how fast are the tears happening? If you don't see blackened edges then I think perhaps your guy may be tailbiting. 

To post your own pics from a website like tumblr, first right click on the image you want to use and click on the option "copy image address." Then come back here and in the message box, click on the little yellow box that is second to last in the options. It kind of looks like a postcard. Paste the image address you just copied in there (remove the httml:// that's already there first). Then click okay and that should do it.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks for telling me how to do it! Here are the best pics I was able to take. They are kind of blurry but my camera was terrible and my betta wouldn't sit still. How does he look?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It looks like he may have bitten his fins a bit but the bites then got infected. With his particular coloring, it's hard to tell if the edges are really really black but the tears don't look like the really ragged edges of serious fin rot. 

Is he still in the triple sulfa?


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Yes, he's still in the triple sulfa. The weird thing is that his tail hasn't really gotten shorter. It just keeps getting tears in it. Some of the tears seem to be deepening too, but I'm not sure if that's from the filter. It was meant for a 20 gallon so in some places it's kind of powerful and I can see him straining. He does have some quiet areas too. 
The edges of the deep gashes are blue and don't really have any black. His tail seems kind of clear at the ends if you look at it hard but it's kind of hard to tell. I look at him along time every day, but I just can't tell if he's getting better or worse.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If his tail is clear at the end, that could be new growth coming in. You can adjust the filter flow on Aqua Clears by pushing the intake tube to the right. This lessens the flow. It might not be enough but you could always baffle it with a plastic bottle if necessary.

Another thing is to check all of your plastic plants/decor and make sure there aren't any sharp edges he could get caught on.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

He had some really sharp plants which were shredding his tail. I removed them, but I think that is why he got fin rot. It's really hard to tell if he has black tips because in some light they look dark, but in some light they look colorless. How soon should I see a noticeable improvement in his fins? Is it so gradual that you can't really tell on a day to day basis?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he had true, really bad fin rot, the black edges would probably be unmistakeable. It would be like someone took a lighter and charred off his fins. New growth is usually noticeable as clear tissue. In most cases, the regrowth is really fast, surprisingly fast. But if his immune system is a little compromised still or there is some bacteria left in the tears, growth could be much slower.


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## snazy (Oct 8, 2011)

To me, it looks like he is biting his own tail being stressed from the non-cycled tank and toxic ammonia and nitrIte. You've treated with maracyn2 which is a gram negative bacterial treatment. It didn't help, now you are treating with triple sulfa, which again is a gram negative bacterial treatment so I doubt it will help either. If he does indeed have an infection, then you should get a gram positive bacterial treatment. You should have treated with Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2 at the same time in the first place. Maracyn 1 treats gram positive bacteria, maracyn 2 treats gram negative bacteria, so you have yourself covered for all types possible. Ammonia and nitrIte free water is the best though.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

I got some ammo chips today to get rid of the ammonia. His tail isn't looking worse with the triple sulfa which I'm taking as a good sign. If it doesn't work, I might continue the treatment a little longer and then give my betta a break. If the fin rot comes back, I will treat him with gram positive meds. It defiantly doesn't look like his tail is charred and blackened. It looks more like someone took some scissors and made a lot of little cuts on his tail. Is this normal for fin rot?


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Also, I looked up tail biting and by betta looks almost exactly like this.








Is this fin rot or tail biting?


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Another pic of the same betta so you can see it more clearly.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

In all reality, Maracyn 1 and 2 are not very efficient antibiotics for a number of reasons. Neither work very well in waters that have high pH and Maracyn 2 becomes highly toxic if used after the expiration date. Both have been used so much that most bacteria have actually built up a resistance to them. 

Most of the bacteria that we tend to deal with in the aquarium are gram negative, with the exception of mycobacterium and streptococcus. Further, the bacteria that are most commonly associated with fin rot are all gram negative being aeronomas, pseudomonas, and flexibacter. In the instances of flexibacter, triple sulfa has shown to be a very effective medication.

EDIT: That looks like fin biting with the beginnings of an infection.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Thanks for the advice on medicines. I was looking at my betta today, and I think that some of the smaller tears are starting to heal together again. It's slow, but I think there's progress! Tomorrow is the last day of the triple sulfa treatment, (it's 4 days) but I think I will continue it for a few more days to get his tail off to a good start. Is this okay? The medicine says it can be repeated if necessary but is it alright to continue it back to back or should I give my betta a break?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

No, that's a good plan. It's best to make sure we get rid of any bacteria that there may be because if we stop treatment too soon and the infection comes back, the bacteria most often comes back highly resistant.


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## Leopardfire (Sep 23, 2012)

Okay I'll do that. Thanks so much for your help on everything! I've asked on tons of different websites but no one seemed to want to take the time to answer all of them. I now feel a lot more certain about what I'm doing. Hopefully it will cure my betta!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You're welcome. I'm happy to help you out.


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