# Something happened during my Maracyn Two Treatment



## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

Hey everyone! I'm currently treating my betta with Maracyn Two. last night I put in the first dose and this morning this LARGE outbreak of white fuzzy mold looking stuff I'm guessing a type of fungus that I've never had engulfed my live plants and wood decor O_O I took out the wood decors and scrubbed the stuff off in hot water then let it sit in a bucket of conditioned water before placing it back in the tank. I had to throw out one of my plants which was completely dead from this outbreak completely covered in this stuff and now my see my water wisteria is also dead and covered in this fuzz

I'm not sure how long this stuff had been growing or if it was caused by the meds but I just noticed it today. could this have caused my fish's sickness? 

my tank has only been cycling for 2 almost 3 weeks now params were at 0 last I checked and PH 7.6 

He hasn't been eating and I've been trying my best to take out uneaten food but it falls apart and I can't get it all and since Im currently treating him I cant do a water change (I did one last night before starting treatment) I know uneaten food can cause bacterial outbreaks but I don't think they're is to much in there and I did a 50% water change yesterday before starting the treatment taking out anything that could of built up.

my question is does anyone know what this is? is it harmful? should I throw out anything covered in it? and how to get rid of it and to prevent it?

he's swimming around a little more since treatment began which is good still isn't eating and still has pop-eye and stuff but I'm afraid of this bacteria making his bacterial infections worse while I'm trying my best with these meds to cure him cause he's been nibbling at it...he's been eating plant roots, his poop, and fungus but when I offer him his pellets he refuses them...


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

had to do an emergency water change despite having medication in the tank. I went to take out the water wisteria and it was the holder of all the fungus. in immediately fell apart and there was so much fungus my tank went completely opaque so I had to do a 50% water change checked parameters everything's stable. 

I've lost ALL my live plants ): going to have to get some new ones once I start getting paid at my new job which wont be for a while so its going to really affect my cycle :/ 

I'm going to continue with medication but sadly I had to do that water change. I really don't know where all this fungus is coming from but its destroying everything! and my fish is eating this stuff. its a disaster


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Its fine that you change the water even if you treating , you can just redose new water with the required dose of the medications. Sometimes people recommending to do daily water changes even though the instructions are not. So its fine.

The problem is that i read that Maracyn's drugs do not work in the pH higher than 7.2 Do you have any other medications on hand? Furan 2, kanaplex, triple sulfa, or other fungus cure meds?

How long you have your betta?
How long he is acting sick?
Can you post the picture?
What place the fungus on his body? 
Is the fungus white and fuzzy like you said or its more clear and slimy?
When you change the water is it still there or its pilling off?
What is the temp in his tank? If its really fungus you need to lower the temp to at least 76* , some people even saying 74*

I would put him in that 5 gall tank that you are trying to cycle and start doing daily water changes. Start with a few 50% now if you can . Do a few 50% about 1 hr a part. Then continue with daily water changes. You can lower the water so it will easier for you to change it. You can alternate 50% and 100% daily water changes. And just redose the required dose of the mes's 
Just take everything out from the tank including the filter. The fact that you put him back in the tank and trying to cycle it, if he is sick now will not help him. Also i still sure that Maracyn 's don't work in the high pH. But if you saying that he is better since you using it you can continue and see if it really helps then use it , if its not helping then stop it.

Also go to any pharmacy department and buy unscented Epsom salt . Should be pure 100% magnesium sulfate (NO ADDITIVES) It will help with the pop eye. Pre mix 1 tsp/gall in the jog and make sure its dissolved . Add it to his tank when you do the water changes. Redose the Epsom salt with every water change. See if its helps. The dose of the Epsom in your tank should be 1 tsp/gall


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

I kind of thoughtyou can't put antibiotics in a live plant tank. I am going to ask about that if you want to follow in the NPT section. I gathered you have to remove the fish to a hospital tank. Erythromycin is supposed to help with popeye along with ES.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ANSWERING I REALLY APPRECIATE IT!  



ANHEL123 said:


> Its fine that you change the water even if you treating , you can just redose new water with the required dose of the medications. Sometimes people recommending to do daily water changes even though the instructions are not. So its fine.
> 
> The problem is that i read that Maracyn's drugs do not work in the pH higher than 7.2 Do you have any other medications on hand? Furan 2, kanaplex, triple sulfa, or other fungus cure meds?
> 
> ...


How long you have your betta? *4 months*
How long he is acting sick? *3 weeks*
Can you post the picture? *sure I can get some up in the next few hours*
What place the fungus on his body? *gill area and he started showing signs of septicemia a few days ago so I ran out and bought Maracyn Two. he also has pop-eye the fungus from the tank came off it had just attached to him while it was floating in that 10 gal tank when he was in it. *
Is the fungus white and fuzzy like you said or its more clear and slimy?* its stringy in some places and in others it looks like molded fruits its slimy to the touch*
When you change the water is it still there or its pilling off? *every time I'd do a water change it would continually come out from the gravel float around and make my water milky so I cleaned out the whole tank *
What is the temp in his tank? If its really fungus you need to lower the temp to at least 76* , some people even saying 74. *I don't really know exactly what he has Ive just been diagnosing off of symptoms. *

*- circling
- darting
- flashing
- rubbing against everything and anything
- pop-eye ( I assume its pop-eye its swollen, cloudy)
- blood spots around the infected eye, head, and gills
- not eating but will eat the fungus and plant roots ( this I don't understand) but he hasn't eaten his food in a week and a half now its beginning to worry me
- purplish red colored gills
- clamped torn fins
- lethargic
- Having problems swimming straight. every time he swims down his body turns him every which way and he cant go straight so instead of going down his body flips him and he goes up... *

I don't have any other fungus meds actually ): I really need to get some of that kanaplex but I've heard its only online but a lot of people recommend it on this site. Maracyn Two has kinda been working but he still wont eat ): 

I'm actually not cycling the 5 gal tank thats only his temp QT tank until the 10 gal is cycled after that fungal takeover. 

I bought Tetra SafeStart Plus is that ok to use? how to go about a fishless cycle? never done one before. and do I need pure ammonia? I don't know where to find any :-?

Ive actually done an epsom salt treatment the 1st week then I tried General Cure for gill flukes it wasn't helping so I switched to Maracyn Two. At this point I think I permanently damaged his internal organs and kidneys with all this medicating


jadablu: yeah it says on the box "recommend using QT tank" so Im guessing the medication killed the plants and started the fungus outbreak? so in his 5 gal QT tank he has nothing but some decor. whats the NPT section?

Carl right now: thats the eye thats swollen. sorry the pic is blurred Im using my android :/ my sisters Iphone takes better pictures but she's not home right now and wont be until late tonight but I can try getting some better ones when she gets home. and a better look at the eye


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

the fungus is actually hanging off his fins its stringy like I just noticed it now and its all over the bottom of the QT tank


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wow he looks perfectly fine on the picture though. But the symptoms that you saying he has like darting,rubbing, flashing looks like the have external parasites. 

Also i was thinking if that slimy stuff on him can be his slime coat . Sometimes fish can produce extra slime coat from having parasites on them.

Is there any way you can hold stable temperature in his tank 88*? The temperature over 88* will speed up parasite cycle and let them fall faster so you can remove them with full water changes.

Do you have aquarium salt?

Did you do water changes yesterday?

I think he is sick any we need to figure out what it is so we can help him . You don't need to transfer to any other tank until he get better. But he also sick for long time. I think its sound like may be ich but i also afraid if he might have gill flukes. I know you treated him , not sure if you got rid of them. Let us know if you can maintain , raise the temp in the tank to 88*. Its very important ...


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> wow he looks perfectly fine on the picture though. But the symptoms that you saying he has like darting,rubbing, flashing looks like the have external parasites.
> 
> Also i was thinking if that slimy stuff on him can be his slime coat . Sometimes fish can produce extra slime coat from having parasites on them.
> 
> ...


You don't think it's a bacterial infection or fungal? like septicemia? I have it down at 79 just in case it was bacterial/fungal but I can bring it up if you think thats best. its hard to tell what he has but Ive shined a flashlight on him a couple of times and he doesn't look sandy or grainy just the same white spots he's had on his face since I bought him and the same shiny specs he's had since I got him

He was put into new water yesterday and I was going to do another tonight cause there is a lot of that white stuff at the bottom of the tank and stringy stuff that was attached to him that maybe he picked up when he brushed against it.

yep I have API aquarium salt and Swam epsom salt Im just afraid of over medicating. how much medication can he take in such a short time? and do you think his swollen eye is pop-eye?

I wish I knew how to upload videos from the phone to here I would get a video of him and the stuff in his tank 

he did eat a pellet this morning! took him an hour but he finished it. generally I don't leave uneaten food but I plan to do many water changes so I figured the water quality would be ok with 50% daily water changes. he did eat it though which he hasn't eaten in almost 2 weeks. he didn't eat his normal 2 pellets (didn't want to throw a second one in there) but he now finally has something in his stomach. because he hasn't been eating he hasn't been pooping so Im unsure if he has anything internal but the last time he did poop before he stopped eating it was brown and before occasional white strings attached but it only happened twice and it went back to brown but now I don't know since he hasn't done it recently.

it could be slime coat its ALL over the bottom of the tank and it was on his floating log this morning all stringy so either the fungus got transferred to his new 5 gal QT tank or he's shedding this stuff everywhere

*is there a reason why he's eating this stuff????????? and its all over his chin and fins*


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Its very difficult for me because on the picture he really looks like he is just a healthy looking betta. I don't see pop eye, bloating, nothing visual on the body.

If he getting better continue Maracyn but do not use longer than recommendation on the box.

The slimy stuff i am thinking can be his slime coat because its coming on and off, and its all over in the tank. I would think if its would be a fungus it will be directly only on him, not in the tank.
Pictures fish with fungus 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=163137&page=2
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=168466

What confusing me that you said all those symptoms:darting, flashing, rubbing those symptoms usually for external parasites or internal parasites

Then you wrote that he having problems swimming straight. every time he swims down his body turns him every which way and he cant go straight so instead of going down his body flips him and he goes up... THIS SOUND LIKE SWIM BLADDER problems. 
So i think he has a few issues going on. And you saying that his poo back to normal but it was whitish meaning that something going on internally . So try to monitor his poo . If there nothing in the tank its will be easier for you to do it. 

Check the pictures , i don't think he has it? Because if he don't have fungus i would try to increase the temp just in case its ich. If he still rubbing and darting , and flashing i really think he might has some parasites.

Also meanwhile do daily water changes ,even though you are using med's. Just redose the new water with required dose of the meds for the day.
Try to feed him because he need strength to fight what ever he has. I would really recommend to go to the store and but frozen blood worms. If he is eating though. Frozen food has a lot of protein and will help the immune system.


If you can order kanaplex it good to have it on hands anyway if you going to have a betta in your life. Its treats both ext and internal infection. 
Maracyn II also the only one antibiotic that absorb through the skin/gills and reach internal infection. But i am not sure if its works in high pH. But since he started eating i would continue it.

When is last treatment for the Maracyn? 
Its good that you saying you have Epsom salt its also helps with internal infection . So see how he doing with meds may you will need to use Epsom later.

I am sorry for my disorganized post , i am at work with many people coming to the room , and doing a lot of stuff so its kind of difficult to be organized since i am doing personal stuff lol


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Its very difficult for me because on the picture he really looks like he is just a healthy looking betta. I don't see pop eye, bloating, nothing visual on the body.
> 
> If he getting better continue Maracyn but do not use longer than recommendation on the box.
> 
> ...


its not disorganized at all don't worry

I just did a water change and put in the next dose of Maracyn Two

Ill get better pics tonight and post them on here. he had the stringy stuff attached to him but when I just did the water change I don't see any so I think its just sticking to him when he rubs against to to go eat it

he is having so many problems and symptoms its hard to tell what he has and if anything he may have twenty thousand different things at once :shock:

his last does of Maracyn treatment in saturday 

I started to increase the temp. someone on here said that high temps are bad and make bettas sick

the darting and flashing has simmered down. but he's very skittish and freaks out over the smallest movement ESPECIALLY when I did the water change. he's in between lethargic and active. he will swim then stop then start again. still has that SBD swimming straight problem but is looking around for food and ate a little this morning. that eye though is about to pop out of his head and I saw a few specs of goldish silver on his body when I shined the flashlight but not so much as to look like ich or velvet. the eyes the worst thing right now I'll post a closer better picture of it tonight.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Forgot to say when you increase the temp make sure its very gradual though. You don't want to shock him with the drastic difference. Do about 2 * in an hr or so.

Last day medications tomorrow i think its good idea to use Epsom forr the pop eye and sbd. I think you said that you was using Epsom before.Can you remind how long , i think you wrote 5 days and how much of the salt you added per gallon?

Is the eye getting worse or its the same? Because if Maracyn is working its suppose to help the eye too.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

The eye is the same it hasnt affected the other one yet but the one that is is still swollen pretty bad I don't think he can see through it cause he constantly stilts his head to see with the other eye

he ate another pellet today! so tomorrow I'll try feeding him his usual 2 pellet meal and see if he eats both 

epsom salt was done the week of August 19th when he started having long stringy poop and became constipated. the treatment went on for 3 days until he finally pooped and it was all brown. then a week went by he was ok and then this began and I went in with general cure last week and then switched to Maracyn a few days ago when General Cure wasn't working and he began to have swelling in his eye and the other symptoms leading to possible SBD and Septicemia 

*Week of August 19th: Epsom Salt 3 days
Week of September 8th: General Cure for the whole treatment
Week of September 15th: began full treatment of Maracyn Two right after General Cure that didn't work and will continue until tomorrow Sept 21st*

he's been through lots of medication in the last month with a 2 week break between Epsom and General Cure. I've been scooping him up constantly to assimilate him to everything so he has been SUPER stressed which is why this white stringy stuff maybe being his slime coat could be what it is since he's SUPER stressed with medicating the move from FL back to VA and constant tank changes 

I did 1 tsp per gal in his 1 gal tank but this one Id be doing 5 tsp for his 5 gal right? 

should I wait a few days after maracyn to begin epsom salt for his eye? and just do daily water changes? I don't want to over stress/medicate him since he's been through so much in the last month

I havent seen his Flash or Dart all day but still Skittish with a little problems swimming straight and one eye swollen. looks to be gaining a bit of an appetite which is good and a little more active just swimming slowly instead of normal pace for him and I haven't seen him gulp or gasp for air like he was a few days ago

Tank is at 82 so far just turned it up a little


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Epsom salt can be used more than 3 days so we fine on that. Yes it should be minimum dose of 1tsp/gall so for 5 gall -5tsp/gall. But you also can slowly increase it to 3 tsp/gall. You can use Epsom for 14 days and longer. So you can start first day 1tsp and then next day increase to 2 tsp , day 3 increase to 3 tsp WITH daily water changes.
I would use it right after you finish with medications only because you saying that the eye is not better, and i think you need to try to treat it so its don't get worse. Medications are harsh on their systems. Maracyn 2 puts a lot of stress on the kidneys but at the same time he still has something going on that need to be treated. Salt is less stressful though than medications.

When fish has slime coat: external parasites, also from using the medications and salt also. But people saying slime coat is not something bad its protection against the disease , meaning his system is fighting, i think.

General Cure that you used is usually recommended and good for the internal infection so may be it did helped since his poo is normal.

You saying that he was gasping for air yesterday which also can be due to the gill flukes . 

So i think its good for now daily water changes
Tomorrow last day of the meds-start Epsom
And i still worry about ich or flukes, so if you think that he don't get worse from the temp that you raised and its really clime coat not the Septicemia i would raise slowly the temp again.

If it wold be Septicemia i show you those pictures , did you checked them out? I just think if it is then it would get worse pretty fast with the warmer water and it will increase in spot on him just like on that picture. 

The reason i am worry and recommending the temp raise because the symptoms you describing sound like parasites + infection.
I just hope that he don't have gill flukes because its more difficult to treat and they can reproduce and the life cycle is linger than ich. So they really more difficult to treat. So i hope he is not gasping for air.
I was reading someone treating for gill flukes and tried like 3 different meds and its didn't help. And now using strong meds and salt dips (4tsp/gall )

Also i am not sure but i think ich using photosynthesis , another words will reproduce with light so keep the tank darkened. 

Will wait for the update.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

this morning he is talking large gulps of air and sitting at the top for a while before moving with the eye still swollen. Im going to see if he eats again today. lately every time he sees a little movement he gets scared and swims away to hide.

temp is a 83 and I just adjusted the heater a little so it should go up while Im at work this morning and I'll continue on raising it more when I get back until its at 88. Well see how he reacts to warmer water

more of that stuff on the bottom of the tank but not on any decor just on the tank bottom. 

todays the last does of Maracyn so tomorrow we start Epsom for his eye

ok, Ive just been turning the light on so he can see the food but other than that its off the whole day. 

So epsom salt with only cure the swollen eye? or does it help in treating other things? I've only used it for constipation and such so I don't know about anything else that it treats

I'll keep you updated on the last treatment, how he does with the heat, and how he is when we start the epsom tomorrow afternoon


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am wondering if he is eating. 
I just think its good that the white stuff on the bottom and not on his body though 
And monitor if he still scratching the body and darting, if he does it less then hopefully the temperature working.

No Epsom salt is good for constipation as a laxative , helps but not treat internal parasites because its laxative so its purge the parasites out, helps with sbd ,dropsy symptoms ,in general its has antibacterial affect. Its helps to reduce fluid retention in the body. 
See i still not sure if Maracyn works because of your high pH which is really not high for the betta at all but someone said that Maracyn not working in that pH. 
Also i was thinking if you still can order kanaplex in case the Epsom not helping .*
My years old betta died today But i am fine he had a good life. Sorry i don't know why i am writing it. I will go buy another betta though.

Will wait for the update. I am coming home today very later about 10 pm but i will still try to check on you .


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

omg I'm so sorry ): when Carl passes I swear i'll be a complete wreck it kills me to even think about it. I mean I know you get a new one but it can never replace them you know? each one is so different. S.I.P ): I hate that they die so quickly I wish they would last at least 10 years or something like dogs and cats 

he's eating he ate two pellets but he's not doing good he started twitching like crazy like he was shaking something off then went and ate it..but not clamped much and no darting or flashing thus far. he's just shaking stuff it looks like 

if epsom doesn't work Im just going to come to terms with the fact that he's going to go soon. no point in continuing to stress him out with medication you know? sometimes some things aren't reversible ):


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Can you summarize everything that's gone on with him, along with what you've done? (Basically, a short timeline of it all.)

I know that you've been treating him, but I also saw that you've moved from FL to VA. Did he get sick sometime before, during, or after the move? 

When did he get the swollen eye?

The white stuff in the tank after you started the antibiotic may have been dying bacteria. Antibiotics kill both good and bad bacteria. So, for example, if you left the media in your filter, it would have killed the beneficial bacteria there. (It also means that you'll need to cycle your tank again.) Also, some plants don't do well with antibiotics or medications. (Epsom salt doesn't affect them though.)

--------------------------------------------

Anhel - I'm sorry about your betta! I'm sure he had wonderful care throughout his life. Unfortunately, their life span isn't all that long.....


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

After moving to FL from VA which didn't end up working out I did an epsom salt treatment because he started having stringy clear poop then it went back to normal and he was fine then we moved back to VA after all the mess and he was fine the first week then he started getting sick

tried General Cure then now Maracyn Two which isnt seeming to be working :/ so I plan to do Epsom salt starting tomorrow. 

He's currently in a QT 5 Gal tank with a heater and a floating log to lay in to make it easier to access air. nothing else in the tank so I can see if anything falls off and all and I can medicate without killing anything 

He got the swollen eye earlier this week during the General Cure Treatment

he began to eat again hopefully he continues to eat

Symptoms he still has:

- Pop-eye
- looks to be shaking stuff off at times
- Skittish
- sits up at the top
- gulps for air and opens mouth really wide to get air Im guessing 
- fins are torn to the extreme half of his bottom back fin and bottom fin are gone
- twitchy when swimming and has a hard time swimming correctly 

Ive raised the temp and since then he's stayed at the top then twitches he seemed better at lower temperatures he seems uncomfortable at higher ones

he's been eating but I've yet to see poop once I do I'll let you know what it looks like


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

so he was eating and eating real quick but he hasn't been pooping so now I have to fast him because he's super constipated. I got some pictures with my sisters Iphone the quality is much better and I got a picture of his eye and what he looks like now


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

LittleBlueFishlest thank you for help. A little bit more information that i think is important. He was treated for gill flukes. And yesterday symptoms also were looks like external parasites. And i recommended to raise the temp. Those are the symptoms 

circling
- darting
- flashing
- rubbing against everything and anything
- pop-eye ( I assume its pop-eye its swollen, cloudy)
- blood spots around the infected eye, head, and gills
- not eating but will eat the fungus and plant roots ( this I don't understand) but he hasn't eaten his food in a week and a half now its beginning to worry me
- purplish red colored gills
- clamped torn fins
- lethargic
- Having problems swimming straight. every time he swims down his body turns him every which way and he cant go straight so instead of going down his body flips him and he goes up... 

And as i remember i think his tank was never cycled. Am i right?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

His old tank was cycled until I moved set up the tank again and the tank was re-cycling thats when he began to get sick


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I just purchased Kanaplex just to have on hand


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

1) What size tank is he in?
2) Have you tested for ammonia or nitrites?
3) How often do you do water changes?
4) What percentage of water is changed each time?

Are the red patches on his fins part of his normal coloration? Red patches can indicate ammonia or nitrite poisoning. 

Or do the red lines run the entire length of the fin? If so, then it could be more indicative of Septicemia. 

Why do you think he had gill flukes? And do you think they're gone now? (He still has the symptoms of it: rubbing, flashing, lethargy, rapid breathing, not eating, discolored gills.) 

Praziquantel (Droncit) is the usual treatment for many parasites, so the *API General Cure* should have helped. If it wasn't effective, I would try something with either formalin, such as *AP Quick Cure*, or with acriflavine, such as *Jungle Parasite Clear*. 

If it is parasitical, then Maracyn 2 won't help. Neither will Kanaplex..... These are antibiotics, not antiparasiticals.

Also, if it is gill flukes (_Gyrodactylus spp_), then heat treatment may not be effective. Heat disrupts the reproductive cycle of parasites like ich, but I haven't seen it mentioned for Gyrodactylus, so you may want to research that. (I'll try to look it up too, but I don't have time right now.)

Epsom salt should help with the popeye and the buoyancy issues. 

(@Anhel - thank you for providing that additional information. It was helpful.)


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

1) What size tank is he in? *5 gal QT tank*
2) Have you tested for ammonia or nitrites? *Ammonia: 0 Nitrites: 0 (he is in a QT tank not cycled I plan to keep him in there while the 10 gal cycles)*
3) How often do you do water changes? *right now everyday before a new does of medication*
4) What percentage of water is changed each time? *50%*

yeah there magenta spots he's always had, they don't run the entire fin just the ends 

no I think he still has them he's still has all the symptoms he is eating now he swallowed 2 pellets a few hours ago for dinner in under a minute and now he's constipated so i'm no longer feeding

I thought it was until he began to swim in circles got pop-eye and all the other symptoms got worse

I think Ill start epsom treatment and take a break on medications and hopefully it will bring down the pop-eye and alleviate him of some symptoms and then after a little break from meds I'll go get something else I just don't want to kill his kidneys. which of those 3 meds do you think would be most effective??

should I be concerned with the red dots around his face and gills that are in those pictures I posted? or do you think thats just a part of him?

he just started rubbing against everything and is flipping out and all jumpy.

should I keep the temp at 85?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I just texted LittleBlueFishlet ....The most important now is the gill flukes. And i didn't know that its not affected by the temperature. I think all other symptoms that he has can be secondary infection. Keep 85 for now. I would do full water changes also.

You saying he is constipated, when is the last time he pooped?
I ask LittleBlueFishlets if its good idea to treat him with aquarium salt actually to dehydrate the flukes and with General Cure since people saying its helpful with flukes. So lets wait what she is thinking. 
I don't know why i was thinking ich not flukes sorry, even though you mentioned flukes before. Flukes are more difficult to get rid of then ich and flukes life cycle is linger too.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I wouldn't worry much about constipation if he hasn't been eating much. (If he doesn't eat much, he won't poop much either.)

I found some differing opinions on gill flukes. But most websites agree that praziquantel is an effective medication.

API General Cure contains praziquantel. You said you didn't find it effective. How long did you use it?

It looks like there are two groups of gill flukes: _Dactylogyrus_ and _Gyrodactylus_. And, according to the University of Florida website, there are FOUR different groups.....

Below is info from U. Florida's website: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033

U. Florida recommended praziquantel:
_" A common treatment method is to use praziquantel at 2–5 mg/L in a prolonged bath for 2–3 weeks..... Regardless of concentration or contact time used, small monogeneans may be protected by mucus and thus survive treatment. Infested fish should be re-examined 1–2 weeks post-treatment to determine if treatment should be repeated."_

U. Florida also suggested salt baths may, or may not, be effective. Their article says:
_"Use of increased salinity to control monogeneans in freshwater fishes can have variable results. Some monogeneans are more tolerant of saline conditions than others. For example, one study of two gyrodactylid species... found that 100% of G. turnbulli were eliminated when guppies were exposed to 25 g/L (ppt) salinity for 15 minutes. However, the same treatment removed only 72% of G. bullatarudis. This same study reported that increasing salinity from 0 to 3 g/L resulted in an increase in numbers of gyrodactylids. The authors reported the fish produced more mucus in response to the increased salinity; the monogeneans fed on the increased mucus and were also able to adjust to the salinity change. In contrast, some freshwater monogenean species are able to live for several days in full-strength seawater (30–35 g/L) but are not able to reproduce during that time. This wide variability in salinity tolerance of the different monogenean species found on freshwater fishes means the use of increased salinity may not be effective in controlling them....._

_"Regardless of the salt concentration used, the minimum contact time is 10 minutes (15 minutes for some monogeneans—see hypersalinity in the section on treatment). However, if the fish roll over before 10 minutes has lapsed, they should be immediately removed from the dip"_

So if you want to do a salt dip/bath, I can work up the numbers required to achieve a high enough dosage of salt.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Personally, given the sensitivity of bettas to salt.... I'd go the praziquantel route. I'd keep him something like API General Cure for 2-3 weeks....

But if you decide to do a salt bath, here are the calculations:
1 teaspoon (tsp) of salt = 5.69 grams....

25 g/L salt is needed for the salt bath (per U. Florida's directions.)
That's 4.39 tsp salt / L

And 3.785 L = 1 gal

So you would need to add 16.6 teaspoons of salt to 1 gallon of water. 

Then put the fish into this for 10-15 minutes. BUT be prepared to immediately remove him if he has trouble.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Thank you LittleBlueFishlets for all help.
How is he doing this morning?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

thank you for all the help your giving me 

He's still constipated he hasn't been able to poop the 4 pellets he had yesterday (2 from morning and night)

if I do general Cure instead of Epsom how would I get rid of his constipation and pop-eye. do you think I should do epsom first and then General Cure?

He was laying at the top until around 9 am this morning. right now he's swimming but his stomach is swollen cause he can't poop the food he ate


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

You can use Epsom salt and API General Cure at the same time.

(It's kind of like taking something for an upset stomach the same time that you're taking another medication. One won't affect the other, and taking them together isn't harmful.)

The Epsom salt should help the popeye and bloating.
The General Cure should help if he has parasites, and it may also help the eye.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

really?? so I should go ahead in a few hours and scoop him out do a 95 to 100% water change to take out the old Maracyn Two med in there, refill and had epsom salt, assimilate him to it and then when he's in the 5 gal QT tank with Epsom I add the General Cure?

also how often and how much of a water change should I do during the course of the treatment? and should I continue both Epsom and General Cure for 2 to 3 weeks? do you think the past treatments of Epsom, General Cure, and Maracyn Two have done damage to his Kidneys or internal organs or do you think he should be fine going on a fourth treatment of Epsom/General Cure Combo?


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> You can use Epsom salt and API General Cure at the same time.
> 
> (It's kind of like taking something for an upset stomach the same time that you're taking another medication. One won't affect the other, and taking them together isn't harmful.)
> 
> ...


I have to disagree. Many medications (antibiotics) are useless in water that is high GH and/or KH

R


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

I've been treating gill flukes for 3 weeks now, so I figured I'd offer my two cents.

I have used, general cure, quickcure (contains formalin), coppersafe, and Clout( very heavy med, not available in some states) and I cannot get rid of these flukes. Note* I see you are using Epsom salt, I don't believe it will be helpful to you in this case since it helps with internal problems and gill flukes is an external parasite

I have spent hours researching, and littlebluefishlets is correct there are many opinions on how to get rid of flukes. Something interesting I did find was the parasite causing gill flukes lays eggs, these eggs hatch every 2-4 days depending on water temperature. You HAVE to interrupt their life cycle or you have no chance of getting rid of them forever. Therefore I suggest daily 100% changes. Ive been using a 1/2 gal QT tank, I take him out, scrub it down, and 100% change every day.

Ive also been doing salt dips( AQ salt NOT Epsom salt), it is too stressful to use medication and salt at the same time. I use 4 tsp/gallon of water, and he stays in there for 30 minutes. I don't know if the salt is actually helping kill the flukes (I think not since ive done it every day for over a week) but when he is in the salt dip he stops scratching, so if nothing else its some relief for them. Also, the salt dip will help with fin rot. During the salt dip I clean his bowl, but be sure to keep an eye on him, if he starts floating sideways he's had enough and needs to be taken out, I have not had this happen with my method though. 

I also agree with littlebluefishlets, try the general cure for 2-3 weeks. Switching medications, even after going the full dose, doesn't seem to work. Perhaps continuing one medication for a long period of time will help.

So my suggestions in summary
-Gen cure 2-3 wks
-daily water changes
-daily salt dips (AQ salt)
-oh and a bit extra food, these parasites wear on them, you want him strong enough to heal

Best of luck


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

*@blufish425* - The Epsom salt is because the fish has popeye, and is constipated and bloated. It's not for the flukes.... Did you see the info that I posted on salt baths from University of Florida's website? I was surprised at the high concentration of salt they said is needed. Interesting info about the life cycle!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*@rickey* - Interesting. I'm used to considering only pH as factor. The sulfate anion is pH neutral, and the Mg2+ cation is slightly acidic. So if GH/KH were low, the magnesium cation might lower pH just slightly. (Many antibiotics are more effective at lower pH's anyway.) 

I know that KH is important for buffering. (From what I've read, it's a measure of carbonate concentration. Is it similar to the blood buffering system: H2CO3 <-> H+ + HCO3- ?) How does a high KH impact medications? 

And I believe that GH is "general hardness," which includes all the ions present (including those from any MgSO4 that was added). The major ones that I can think of (Ca2+, K+, Na+ and Cl-) should all be pH-neutral. (Salts of strong bases and a strong acid.) So I'm stumped on this one, too.  How does GH impact medications?

Thanks! I don't cycle my tanks, so I'm probably less familiar with GH and KH than I should be.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

So you guys think I should do AQ salt instead of Epsom salt and not do general cure at the same time? I'm confused as to how I should go about treating him


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

No. I would *NOT* add aquarium salt to the tank while using antibiotics! 

The University of Florida website suggested a 10-15 minute salt bath. Ie: you put the fish into salt water for 10-15 minutes ONLY, then return him to his regular (unsalted) tank.

My opinion was that I would try the praziquantel treatment (API General Cure) for 2-3 weeks instead, which is the other treatment outlined by U.Florida. (Ie: I said that I would use General Cure, and NOT do the salt bath/dip.) I said this because their recommended salt treatment is a VERY high dosage, and Bettas are sensitive to salt.

If you are concerned, then just do the *API General Cure*. Per the U. Florida website, you may need to treat for 2-3 weeks, or longer. If he has gill flukes, you need to get rid of them. So, IMO, the API General Cure is the most important medication.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

did see that you replied


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

Do I need to assimilate him slowly with the salt water and then add him to the 1 gal salt tank then 15 mins later take him out assimilate him to the large tank and put him in there and then put general cure and repeat everyday? I feel like scooping him into a tank everyday will kill him and I won't have time to do this everyday with work 

So I probably should do general cure for 2 to 3 weeks to kill the main problem then treat secondary infections with a Epsom salt treatment. 

When I do Epsom salt in the 5 gal qt tank do I have to do daily water changes and scoop him out everyday and re assimilate him everyday to the new salt water?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

does this look more like slime coat or fungus? its what overtook my 10 gal tank and seems to be in the QT tank now as well


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

sorry I don't mean to double or triple post just wanted to let you guys know I did an 80-85% water change (Can't do a full 100% water change because of my condition I can't carry heavy things so carrying 5 gallons of water won't work so I just do as much as I can carry. my fiancé usually helps with water changes but he's away at school so I have to do them myself for now) I took out most of the water and did a fairly large water change. I have General Cure next to me as well as AQ and Epsom salt on hand. once I get the ok as to what to use first and how to go about treatment I'll start. water is clean so I can put in the medication at any time


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

This just happened a few minutes ago so he is no longer constipated so I can go ahead and do General Cure first since he's scratching on everything and shaking like crazy. and treat the rest with salt later down the road. 

The poop is brown which is good but I don't even know how he passed this without tearing a whole  it looks like a brain and it has to be at least half an inch wide and almost half an inch in diameter. he looked like he was giving birth to a planet....I took some pictures before taking it out and putting in a little bit of new water to fill the tank back up



















I'm sorry I'm constantly posting I just want to give updates and any new information that could help


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Its good that you give us as many updates its always helps. I would go ahead and pre mix medications for him today. I am glad he finally not constipated and his poo is normal. 
About that slimy stuff i still don't think its a fungus because fungus will be directly on fish , just like those pictures that i posted in my other post for you.

I am thinking what is the best way for you to change the water though..Do you use the siphon to take 85% out?

Also , well with ich you need to rinse and dry out all changing equipment until next use ,so its kill parasites(no host, they die). Not sure if it the same with flukes but i assume it is.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I went ahead and started the general cure which I'll continue for 2 to 3 weeks as you all suggested and Epsom later. 

Yep I siphoned everything and rinsed that white fuzzy stuff off and dried it before putting back. I really don't Know what it is but it keeps coming back...

Yeah it's just coming out bigger than him but I assume its because of build up from being constipated. Hopefully he starts to poop more often so it doesn't happen again.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Try to take that decoration out of the tank until you done with the treatment. I think its also will be easier for you to change the water.
Also after you done with siphon , hang it vertically , so its let all water drip out of it and dry out. And also rinse the siphone , let the hot water go through it.

When you siphone 80-85% of the water can you scoop the rest of the water or its difficult? I wish you have tank like i do. My tank is 2.5 gall though and its a plastic tank. So when i scoop all water out its so light , that you literally can lift it with your finger.

I am so sorry for all the trouble, you doing such a good job for the little guy;(


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

the only thing is that decor floats and it has a little hole at the top so its easier for him to get air from the surface because he tires really easily and sometimes lays at the bottom and bolts up for air so he lays in the log and goes to the opening of the decor when he needs air. if I take it out he'll have a hard time reaching the surface ): its the only decor in there though the bottom is empty to make it easy for me to see anything that falls and clean it up when I'm doing water changes

I could siphon all the water out but its carrying in the buckets when there full thats difficult because the joints in my wrist and doing two rounds running to the utility sink and back is to much cause I would have to get the water to the same temp a second time it would just take to much time so I just do it one time. I ended up doing a 10 to 15% water change after he pooped and tried to eat it I went ahead and siphoned it out and taking out whatever else was on the bottom and refilled what I took out so the waters almost 100% new water

everywhere I've read on here people have been losing there fish left and right and its discouraging me ): I don't want to lose him but you don't hear often that fish have made it most die during treatment because the diseases just attack so fast ): I'm hoping he makes it he's a fighter he's gotten this far which most fish wouldn't of so I have a lot of faith in him


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> *@blufish425* - The Epsom salt is because the fish has popeye, and is constipated and bloated. It's not for the flukes.... Did you see the info that I posted on salt baths from University of Florida's website? I was surprised at the high concentration of salt they said is needed. Interesting info about the life cycle!
> .


Sorry, I read through the thread as quickly as possible as its getting rather long. Now the Epsom salt makes more sense 

I did not see your info from the University of Florida (as I said I skimmed )

I got my info for salt baths/dips from this website, it also talks about using other medications as a "bath", very interesting, worth checking out http://www.algone.com/articles/fish-health/aquarium-fish-dips

And the info about the life cycle from here
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Gill_or_Skin_flukes

and here
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/parasites-flukes

and here
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...lukes-and-Internal-Flagellates-worms-possible

I recommend Bettaprincess13 that you take a look at these, and also anybody who wants to know waaayy too much about gill flukes


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

blufish425 said:


> Sorry, I read through the thread as quickly as possible as its getting rather long. Now the Epsom salt makes more sense
> 
> I did not see your info from the University of Florida (as I said I skimmed )
> 
> ...


Thanks Blufish425! I went and read all three articles  

I'm hoping I can get rid of these flukes once and for all. He's had them before but never this bad...and hopefully since he's in a 5 gal QT tank that is constantly siphoned every 1 to 2 days it will help in ridding of any unhatched eggs or free floating flukes...

He was able to eat today and is swimming around. I had to turn the heat down from 84 to 82 cause I found him with his head almost out of water this morning I'm guessing having a hard time getting oxygen so I brought the temp down and he seems to be doing a lot better. the swelling seems to have gone down a bit his eye but I'll still do a salt dip and a few other medications after General Cure just to be safe

I'll keep you guys updated on how he's doing with the treatment during the next coming weeks  and I plan to maybe use the kanaplex once its all said and done. the article says to treat with bacterial medication after just in case.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Keep us updated. And also do not get discourage. We all get sick, pets get sick too. If you have a pet you always have to be ready they can get sick, just like when you have a child. And also if not you he would probobly be dead if he would be at the store so you give him so much love and care, thank you!!!


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

Thank You all for all your support  thats why I love coming on here because like today I went to work and one of my co-workers who also has a betta I thought would understand so I told her about how mine is sick and Im doing everything to make him better because I care about him but I found out she actually hates hers and can't wait for it to die so she can get something else and doesn't really like fish and just made fun of me for being so worried about my fish saying "its nothing special its just a fish"

it's good to know there people on here who understand and have love as respect for these little guys as much as I do


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Aww its sad Can you adopt her fish? Unfortunately its like that. Some people don't understand the fish and some just have them all their lives and love them. I love my dog and i love my fish, and l love my cat. All of them my favorite. My friend and my coworker love their bettas. Even the doctor i work for love my bettas and let me keep in his office 2 of them. But the doctor love fish though. So don't get upset we all different. But i really feel bad about her fish 
If you ever can adopt her fish though you need to be very careful and never CROSS CONTAMINATE anything with yours because he will get those flukes too.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

She would probably gladly give him to me if I asked my only thing is that I don't have another tank to put him in and she keeps him in a small bowl so she wouldn't have one to give to me meaning I'd have to go out and buy another tank I can't afford and no place to put him. then id have to buy two buckets and another vacuum to clean the tank cause I can't use the one Carl is using. right now I don't have the money to bring in another fish ): 

I love dogs and other animals to but I'm just a fish kind of girl and for some reason if Im not the typical dog or cat person no one takes me seriously. its just sad.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Believe me many people on the forum take you seriously lol. So many people will understand you, we all love bettas. 
I have betta at work and one very nice girl that working next door , saw my betta on the table and said:''i want one''. So guess what it didn't take me long to go and buy a betta for her. Of course i gave her all instructions and ask her to repeat it lol So a week went by and i came to her work ask how is the betta doing. I was skeptical and afraid that she might change her mind , but i was soooo surprised when i found out that she actually went and bought another betta. I could not believe it. The reason i am saying that , to tell you that a lot of people will understand you . But if i see that some one don't , i don't even get offended or argue. How many people abusing animals. I am in Phila where people grow pit bulls from the pappy for fighting and kill them. So don't get offended if someone don't understand your love and care to fishy, we do understand. That is why so many people spend so much time on the forum. Omg forgive me for all my writing. 
So how he doing?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

Im the same way It bothers me but I just keep quiet and let them say what they want and believe what they want. everyone is different and some people prefer certain animals as pets over others. I don't ask that everyone LOVE bettas like we do but at least respect and and understand that although their fish they deserve as much love and care as any other animal.

Carl is eating but he's not pooping, he's not even bloated just very hungry and swallow the food like he hasn't eaten but yet he's skinny even though it eats. I don't want to keep feeding him because he's not pooping but he's not bloated either and looks so fatigued. 

the eye is swollen but less cloudy and looks a little better. his gills are inflamed and kinda pushed out but he's active just has a little bit of trouble with body direction but he eventually gets control of himself and swims normally.

Im just confused as to why he's eating but not pooping but yet not bloated and instead is skinny as if he's never eaten and when I give him a pellet he attacks it and its gone in less than 5 seconds...Im glad he's eating but I need him to poop regularly...


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

The last time he pooped on 9/22 so wait a little. I read that some bettas don't do it daily so maybe wait and see how bad it is. I know LittleBlueFishlets said that we can use Epsom salt with the medications , or may be you even can do Epsom salt bath . Epsom salt works as a laxative for them.
Inflamed gills i hope that medications you are using will help, i guess its too early to say
But its good he is eating , meaning he is happy.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

cleaned the tank and put in the second does of General Cure. Im trying not to do epsom with meds just because of the stress factor but hopefully he does it soon and maybe will eventually get back to doing it on the daily.

Im hoping the meds work to. he's less clamped to which is good.


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

Mine only poop every other day. Is he still itching as though he has parasites?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

He breathing heavy at times and taking breaks and shaking his head at times as if he's trying to shake something off but I haven't seen his flash or scratch today so far. other than that he clamps and becomes lethargic during the times he has those heavy breathing moments once he goes back to normal his fins are extended and he's swimming around. its back and forth sometimes he looks great and other times he looks miserable :/ 

last time he pooped 2 days after which was 6 pellets worth >_> so far he's had 4 ( two yesterday morning and 1 last night and this morning because he's not pooping so I don't want to overfeed) he used to poop 4 to 5 times a day so it's weird that he's doing it every 3 days....


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

How many days on the General Cure now? Is this day 3? Also, have you tried a salt dip? It really does seem to offer them some relief.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

If he's not bloated, and he's eating well, I would not use Epsom salt. (Especially since you describe him as skinny.) I don't think it's "constipation" either.... 

He's not eating much, so he's not pooping much either.

I would feed him small meals. I would give him 2 pellets tonight, then 2 in the morning. If he seems ok with that, then add another pellet to the following meal. This would bring him up to a total of 5 pellets per day.

Remember that his immune system is working overtime right now, so he may be burning extra calories.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

yeah he's on his 3rd day of General Cure so far so good but it's to early to tell if the medication is helping any

He pooped for me while I was at work and it had some clear white on the end of it but the rest was brown. Im guessing the clear is either from the flukes or stress caused by the flukes or because he's eating that white stuff thats on the ground. he's pooping just not often so I don't want to do the epsom salt unless he wasn't pooping for days on end.

now he has a bit of a tummy but he did eat 1 1/2 pellets (for some reason he didn't want to finish the last bit of the second one) I asked someone and they believe it may be something to do with the flukes causing pressure on the organs making it hard for him to poop which I think might also be what it is. 

thats what I was thinking that maybe he's using so much of the nutrients from the pellet that there isn't much to poop out


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am not sure if some clear white on the end might be internal parasites or internal infection but General Cure is recommended for that issue.
Keep us updated please.


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't believe its internal parasites, the poop would be much more stringy, but if it were you are already using the proper medication for that. 

I haven't seen my boys itch all week so I think my flukes issue is finally done. Fingers crossed. 

Are you doing daily water changes, or at least every 2 days? It took me over 3 weeks to get rid of the flukes so be patient. It is one of the hardest things to treat.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

thats great! gives me hope that I can get rid of these pest

The General Cure box says change every 48 hours and re-dose medication. so every 2 days

I have Kanaplex on its way in the mail to use after Im done treating for flukes so it can help his pop-eye 

for SBD problems is that just cured with proper feeding and clean water?

I finally put the 10 gal back together with live plants and all, filter running. and I plan to plant more in there before I put Carl in. before he goes in Ill transfer the heater or possibly buy another just in case I need it for the 5 gal and then when I add him in Ill put the Tetra Safe Start Plus and begin cycling my tank again.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would not put him in the new tank until you sure you got rid of the flukes. 

About water changes i think its good idea to do daily full water changes daily and just redose the medications .

Also don't add Kanaplex. I was thinking that General Cure will also help with his eye issue. I think the best idea now is wait and see how he doing with the General Cure and then will go from that

About daily water changes and redosing lets wait what it the others opinion on that.


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> I would not put him in the new tank until you sure you got rid of the flukes.
> 
> About water changes i think its good idea to do daily full water changes daily and just redose the medications .
> 
> ...


General cure wont treat bacterial issues and therefore is useless against popeye. The Kanaplex is actually the best for that. You could theoretically use both Kanaplex and General cure at the same time, but it might mess up your water change schedule because of the different dosing instructions. You don't want to let that popeye go to long though. I have seen cases where the fish lost an eye. 

Water changes and re-dosing every 2 days is fine. Gill fluke eggs hatch every 2-4 days, depending on water temp. So unless your water is like 84*+ you are preventing more eggs from ever hatching with 2 day changes. The reason this part is so important is because the medication wont kill fluke eggs, and once the fluke attaches inside your fishes gills it is protected from the medication. There is a very small window in which it can be killed, and that is why its so difficult to get rid of. You don't have to take my word on the water changes, but I did just spend a month researching and treating this same thing 


Edit: SBD can stem from a bunch of things but the Kanaplex should take care of that also


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I don't plan on putting him in until I know for sure he's fluke free but I had to plant the plants and give them fertilizer and light/water before they shriveled up and died and now that the tank is up and running thats one less thing I have to worry about when medicating is done I just have to clean the water every now and then to keep it clean it shouldn't dirty up to quickly without any fish but just in case.

its best I probably try to use kanaplex with General Cure then as long as it doesn't over stress and kill him Im sure I can find a way to make it work with water changes. its probably not going to arrive until next week though because they so nicely blocked off our street with re-paving so the mail won't be able to come for the next few days...

Ive been trying to keep the temp at a steady 80 but it somehow keeps going up to 82-83 >_<

do you think the General Cure can get rid of the flukes that are already in his gills?


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

It is my understanding that the flukes already in the gills are protected by the gill flaps and therefore are mostly protected from the medication. They have a lifespan of about 10 days, so as long as no more get the chance to hatch you should have it cleared up within 2 weeks or so. Took me longer because I learned all of this the hard way


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I hoping theyre arn't to many since this has been going on for a couple of weeks before I was able to find out what it was and medicate him I don't know how many are in his gills or how much damage they've done or even how old they are...

my tank is at 82 and i just adjusted the temp so hopfully it goes down to 80 by tonight. I just don't know if any of these eggs have been able to hatch and reinfect him :/ although I read as long as prazi is active in the tank the eggs won't hatch so if i do a water change before the prazi goes inactive I may have a change to take the eggs out before they hatch. but i don't get out of work until 3 tomorrow so I won't be able to do a water change until around 4 and the last time I medicated was around 2pm so the prazi will have been inactive 2 hours before I can change it so Im hoping they don't hatch while Im at work before I can get to to them...........................SO FRUSTRATING!!! :frustrated:


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

Trust me I feel your pain. I think you will be fine with just the 2 hour delay. If it was a whole day that might be a bigger deal. Egg laying parasites, absolutely the most disgusting topic I've ever talked about


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

ugh I know they're so hard to get rid of especially since they hide themselves behind the gills >.<;; how do our fish even get them? I keep the water clean and I rinse and let my new decor sit in conditioned water overnight to kill off anything thats lingering before putting it in the tank and I even rinse and let my gravel dry then adding conditioned water to the whole tank and letting it run overnight before letting fish into the tank to ensure everything that was there dies so I can't figure out where these flukes came from >___> I hope he stops shedding slime coat all over the place soon it was the reason I had to take apart and re-establish my 10 gal tank. at first I thought it was fungus but now that he's in the 5 gal I vacuum that stuff every other day and by the next day its on the ground again so I think its slime coat shedding and not fungus.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I was thinking if he shedding the slime coat he could shed some eggs with it too?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

maybe? I noticed he now has two red vein looking things near his gills that he didn't have before on one side of his body. this kanaplex needs to get here soon cause this is getting bad and its taking its time....


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

his gill flaps are protruded slightly with heavy breathing and when he moved these white little squiggly things flew out of his gills  

He did poop again for the second time today and he's been eating one pellet a day to make it easy for him to digest.

today was another General Cure dosage. Kanaplex has yet to come in but the dosage is every 48 hours like General Cure so hopefully it gets here soon so I can dose the two meds together with water changes


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

About how large were the white things? (You can look at a ruler to get an approximate size.) 

I would feed him more than 1 pellet per day. He needs good nutrition in order for keep his immune system strong.

What's the reason you want to add Kanaplex?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

They wernt to big I would say half of 3/4ths of an inch. No bigger than that.

I know but since he's been pooping every 2 days I didn't want to clog up his stomach with thousands of pellets and cause a back up. I figured with 2 a day the amount going through his digestive system was smaller so he could poop easier. 

Kanaplex for pop eye and now he has veiny streaks one formed today and the other a few days ago so I'm guessing he might have septecemia. And he still has trouble swimming right


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Well, I wouldn't use Kanaplex for popeye.... but yes, I'd use it for septicemia.

Most gill flukes are tiny. Even accounting for water's ability to magnify objects, they still wouldn't look 3/4 inch long.... In fact, most are microscopic, meaning you wouldn't be able to see them without a microscope.

However, mature capsalids and their egg cases can be visible to our eye. So maybe this is the type of fluke you're dealing with. You may want to look up Capsalidae to see if this could be the type of fluke he has.

Here's an excellent article about flukes. It's where I found the info about _Capsalidae_: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033

Also, can you post a new photo?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

it says it treats septecemia and pop-eye. since I have to use it for his septicemia Im guessing he has from the red veins that are appearing on his body I can see if it does anything for his eye and if not Ill do salt but best that it gets treated as soon as possible before he loses that eye or it spreads. the tracking says it should be here by the end of the day which is just in time for tomorrows water change and re dosage of General Cure. 

It may of been it was just little off white things coming out. I didn't know if it could of been flukes since like you said they are microscopic 

sure! I can post some pictures later tonight once I finish up some things for work


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I feed him 2 pellets instead of 1 and now he can't move and his stomach is huge. Im going to go back to feeding 1 pellet if he doesn't die on me. he's not pooping fast enough to be having 4 pellets a day so I can't give him that much. i understand he needs the energy but its doing more harm than good right now.

and because they re-paved our roads and blocked off the entrance UPS couldn't give me my package which angers me to no end and I won't get the kanaplex now until monday....


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

UPDATE PICTURES:










The Food Baby. Bloated from to much food and no pooping.



















This one shows up one of the veins the other one didn't up on camera.



















The last two show the swollen eye and the red gill area with red blood colored spots around the gills.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

every time I change the water this white film is always present. its a clear white film. and I noticed Carl has a think layer of this clear film hanging from his body. is this slime coat? or a fungal disease? do you think he'll stop shedding this stuff when he is cured of his illness? Im afraid of putting him back in the other tank and it getting covered in this stuff.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I know this thread is no longer being replied to but I figured I'd keep updating just in case anyone wanted to give any more advice or if anyone was watching the thread to see updates or if anyone is going through this how my treatment process is going and if it works or not. 

Kanaplex came in today! I just added it to the tank. both General Cure and Kanaplex are re-dosed every 48 hours so they both work perfectly with the water change. 

his pop-eye has gone down tremendously. he's more active and is eating. still poops every couple days. feeding is minimal to reduce abdominal swelling. still gasping for air and has his moments but most symptoms have subsided. now that the kanaplex is in there it should help his eye and the septicemia as it says it helps with those. the frequent water changes helped a lot though that I've seen the eye is almost back to normal but I added the meds in just to be on the sure side it gets cured.

possibly might do a treatment for any secondary internal bacterial infections he may of gotten that these meds don't cure but I think he'll be fine with these two meds and constant water changes. 

I'll keep updating as the treatment continues. figures crossed that everything goes well. so far so good


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wow i like the update. No actually i was waiting for the update. 
If its working don't stop treating him. Always give update, so people can evaluate and give you advice if you need another round. I am glad his eye got better . But for the flukes you still need to treat probobly more then one more round since he still gasping. Does he still scratching?
I think the clear stuff might be his slime coat.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

still doing the 3 week General Cure for the flukes just to be on the sure side. everything from water changes, General Cure, and Kanaplex are written on my calendar so I don't forget what days to re-dose and change the water. 

I think it's his slime coat to because I saw him shed some the other day. good to know it wasn't fungus in my tank but I hope it stops shedding it soon.

he stopped scratching and flashing just gasping and heavy breathing are the only symptoms besides the pop-eye which is going away (so it seems at least) and the Septicemia (red veins on his body) which ill give an update on after a few doses of kanaplex.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Will wait for the update, i hope with better news. Keep doing good job! Lucky guy to have you.


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

Glad to hear he is starting to improve!


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

Thanks Blufish425 and ANHEL123 

He flared at me this morning when I went up to the side of the tank. I'll take it as a good thing he's able to flare out his gils which he hasn't been able to do in weeks. Im hoping to see him make his bubble nest again. I hope the flaring was he thought I was something else and protecting his food and not that he is mad at me...


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

*UPDATE:*

Carl met his next goal! which was to build bubble nest again which he stopped shortly before he got really sick but he usually makes them all the time. this morning he made a small bubble nest  










his next goal is probably to get the rest of the swelling down in his eye, the septicemia, and the flukes then the goal after would be to stop shedding his slime coat. the shedding has decreased I noticed the water is more clear and less slime coat build up but he is still shedding so Im using StressCoat+ and just hoping once the infections are gone he'll stop shedding. still has pooping issues but he swims better without going in every direction and is more active, eats etc. 

he had a cough attack just now as I was typing this so the flukes are still there from what I can see but thats the only symptom he still has. coughing and every now and then gulps but thats it. now he listless but for some reason this always happens right after I put in a new dose of meds and then he goes back to his normal active self. its weird. I think he just gets shocked by a packet of medication thrown in all at once.

just changed the water and added new General Cure and kanaplex a little later so to not throw to much medication at once. 

after treatment he'll stay in daily cleaned water for a few days then a salt bath most likely if anything still is present then he'll hopefully be ok to go back into the 10 gal tank


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

after things were going so well it looks like it took a turn for the worst. He's been trying to eat but it looks at though its painful so he can't eat all of his food. his right gill is completely pushed out and he's breathing heavily ): 

I'll let you all know how things go in the next few days.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

If he becomes listless after you add the new meds, it may be shocking his system a little. How are you adding the medication to the tank? (What's the procedure that you use?) Maybe there's a way you can add the medication more gradually (over the period of an hour or so.)

University of Florida's recommendation was to treat with praziquantel at 2–5 mg/L for 2–3 weeks. (Then recheck, and decide if more treatment was required.)

API General Cure contains 75 mg praziquantel per packet. Each packet treats 10 gal (38L) of water. So it contains a sufficient amount of praziquantel. 

Are you aerating the water at all? 
What's the current water temperature?
Do you know the pH?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

BettaPrincess give us update little worry


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

*How are you adding the medication to the tank?*
I add half the packet of General Cure to the 5 gal tank right after I do a water change then I wait a few hours to add the kanaplex

*Are you aerating the water at all? * No aerating or filter 
*What's the current water temperature?* 78 Degrees 
*Do you know the pH?* 7.6

no improvements from my last update. he eats a little but doesn't finish I feel because of the irritation in his gills.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

A convenient way to dose General Cure is to get a container that holds 5 cups of dechlorinated water. Add the dosage of General Cure and mix it well. Then ass 1/2 cup of medicated water per 1 gallon of tank water. So if his tank is 2 gall ,you'd add 1 cup of medicated water OR if the tank 3 gall - you add 1.5 cup and so on......


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

still the same ?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

his gill went back in and he's eating but he's back to scratching on stuff :/ I might have to drag this treatment out an extra week. the eye swelling is going down but even with kanaplex Ill probably have to extend the treatment.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh yes definitely , don't remember how many rounds you did already?


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

You may have to consider treating with something else for the gill flukes. The medication you are using is not what worked for me in the end. Is it possible for you to get a video of his scratching?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

blufish also which med's you would recommend , i forgot the one that you used at the end?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

it's his 3rd week of treatment. 

I could try but it would be hard since he doesn't do it very often. also I don't know how to upload the videos 

what other meds should I try?


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

You could try Coppersafe, it is available at petsmart. I used a medicine called Clout, you would have to get it from a specialty local fish store, and you cant get it at all in some states. Its a very strong medication.

Coppersafe says it treats the water for up to 1 month, but don't pay attention to that, the frequent water changes to interrupt the life cycle of the flukes would still be necessary.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

ok Ill look for some Coppersafe this weekend. for now Ill keep the the general cure and see how he does. 

He pooped 2 days in a row! but the second one was slightly clear on the ends. stress or something else? Im keeping an eye on it

is this the Clout medication you were taking about?

http://www.thatpetplace.com/clout-1..._id=26445812&gclid=CPvg4anjhLoCFROZ4AodznkACQ


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

Yep, that's the Clout. If you do decide to use the Clout, I would not use anything else with it, you would have to stop the Kanaplex for awhile. Clout is just too strong of a medication. All of these medications have different active ingredients, some people have the best luck with one kind, some with another. I felt like I was guessing and checking the entire time I was trying to get rid of the flukes :/


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I feel the same :/ he's gone through so many medications and no luck with riding of these flukes. I was thinking of stopping Kanaplex and General Cure and do daily water changes for a week or so and then add in Clout. Since its strong I wanted to wait a while and let his system take a break before using it since he's been through so many meds already.

how many times did you have to does clout?


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

They say 1 treatment should be effective, but I think in the case of gill flukes, and the fact that they are only killable in certain life stages it takes longer. I treated for like a week. Giving them a break in the middle because they looked pale and unhappy. So I would do it like this;

Day 1-medicate
Day 2- No water change, no additional medicine
Day 3- 100% water change + Medication
Day 4- No water change, no additional medicine

If he is still scratching at this point, give him a day off from medication, and then repeat. 

While you are waiting for the Clout to come, I would suggest doing the salt dips every time you change his water. AQ salt can be effective in killing parasites, as well as bacteria (which is causing his pop eye.)


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

didn't see the answer


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I just ordered the Clout, should I stop General Cure and Kanaplex immediately until the clout comes in and just do daily water changes?

*Directions for use: It is recommended to treat infected fish in a separate isolation tank. Remove carbon from the filter but do not discontinue filtration. Take a disposable cup and half fill with aquarium water. Dissolve one tablet for every 10 gallons of aquarium water. Disperse the medication throughout the treatment aquarium. One treatment should be adequate. If parasites or symptoms are still present 24 hours after initial treatment, change 25% of the water and treat again. Replace filter carbon 24 hours after final treatment. If fish show signs of stress during treatment, change 50-75% of the water immediately. Store at room temperature.*

so I should start up the filter? its currently off and I really don't want to have to make a baffle the filter...

since he's in a 5.5 gal tank I should just break the tablet in half and then mix in a cup then pour in correct?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

the pop-eye came back despite all the meds and he's reverting back to how he was at the beginning. so I'm going to stop current medications and wait for clout.

for the pop-eye you all said salt dips? with what salt and how exactly do salt dips work?

for now Im just going to give him clean water


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

Aquarium salt is effective against both parasites and bacteria. A salt dip is a safer alternative to adding salt right into his water. I personally believe the salt dips did wonders for my fish when they had gill flukes. 

Use a spare bucket or container, and do 3tsp Aquarium salt to 1 gallon of water. Leave him in there about 30 minutes, keep an eye on him, if he starts tilting sideways and losing his buoyancy he needs to come out ( I never had that happen though.) 

When I was doing daily water changes I did the salt dip every day, while I cleaned their QT tanks.

Edit: Make sure all of the salt is dissolved before you put him in (you might have to stir it up). Make sure you add water conditioner into the salt dip water, make sure its the right temp, etc. Also, acclimate him slowly. I would get him in a cup from his tank, add a bit of the salt dip water into the cup, let him acclimate to that, and then just pour him into the salt dip bucket. When you are done get him in a cup again, and pour him back into his tank.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

should I start doing salt dips tomorrow while clout is coming? or should I wait to do it after the clout treatment? since its a strong medication should I let him take a break from treatments until then? or is it ok to do salt and then clout right after without breaks?


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

Do the salt dips while you are waiting for the clout. Since its only for 30 minutes a day, he will still be getting a break from the medication.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

The clout came in the mail today so Ill be dosing him tomorrow. Ill let you know how he does


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How its going?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

he's having a string coming out of his butt and he's still gasping and flashing (not often) but he's eating, swimming, pooping daily now. eye swelling went down. he's been doing a lot better 

I plan to do epsom next week. this week is just clean water so he can take a break from meds for a little while then he goes back in his large tank  

I know he's still showing symptoms but he didn't do well with one dose of clout so Im not going to take chances. maybe in a month or so if he needs it but I think he's had all he can handle meds wise for now. about 4 different meds for the past month.










he just passed it just now. since 10 am he's been trying and its 5 pm now. just looked at it and its literally a piece of hair attached to poop. maybe it fell in the tank during water changes and he ate it? I can't figure how he ingested that but he finally passed it thank god.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wait for blufish advice , she experienced the same problem with her fish . But i really think its not safe to stop medications for long time if he still has them. They will reproduced and he will eventually die. I think its is less dangerous to overmedicate him, than stop while he still has them and they will lay eggs and reproduce, and then you need to treat them all over again. Whatever he has is fatal so it either you need to make sure you get rid of it or he will die.
You saying that he didn't handle medication (clout) very well but obviously he is better so i would continue it. I think that blufish will say the same things.
I think his fins less clamped now too.

I am curious if the poop is normal . It is normal color but i am confused with hair attached , i read that it can be internal paraistes, not sure. Wait for the other advice.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

your right I should be continuing medication cause if not he'll go back to how he was but I'm just afraid if I don't give him time to rest his system will shut down with medication overload ): 

all his other poops are normal so far just that one was weird because of the weird hair. it confused me to

EDIT: I put in another dose of Clout. Ill see how he does with it


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I know bluefish also used a few medications before she use Clout. And i know that she was using Clout also for the long time too. So do not stop even for a day. And i think you don't have any choice any way. I think you need to use it until he don't have any symptoms at all ,and actually even a little bit longer after he will stop having any symptoms. Just feed him verities of food , and give him frozen food which is good for the immune system.


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

I know we talked about this through PM, but be careful with the Clout. Are you sure he still has symptoms? Or is it possibly just moments of crazy betta behavior? My boys dart like idiots and run into stuff all the time, but its not the same as when they were itching they are just being spazzy.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

He was scratching and gasping a lot he did just a second ago but I don't know if thats just from effects of damage to his gills from when he did have the flukes or if he still has some. I put clout in yesterday and he is doing a lot better with it than he did the first time around. but I really don't want to give him more clout I feel like it would do more harm that good if used long term. I do plan to do epsom salt next week before putting him in his 10 gal tank to rid of the fluid retention in his eye and flush out anything inside him and stuff. just as precaution.

he pooped about 5 times today all normal brown. he's eating well, finns growing, eye swelling has gone down to almost nothing except a little fluid retention on the bottom of the eye. but I can tell he struggles with his eyesight Im guessing from the pop-eye he had. he's very active and built another bubble nest this morning  so I think he's come along way but like ANHEL123 said if he does have any flukes left and I don't treat them he'll go back to the way he was. but I can't tell if he has them still or not.


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## blufish425 (Jul 29, 2013)

I couldn't tell either until I took a video and sent it to Sakura8. I know it is normal for them to "yawn" on occasion, it looks like they are gasping but they are really flushing out their gills.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

its long time without an update. How is he doing?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

the 10 gal tank is having problems so I have to take it apart and redo everything.

he's ok. he's still having scratching problems though. other than that everything else is gone. just some scratching once in a while and some coughing fits (rarely but they still happen) he's eating and pooping normally everyday a little or 3 times a day now and the eye is pretty much normal again he just has some trouble seeing with it but the swelling gone for the most part. maybe just a little but almost nothing. he just wants back in the other tank but thats going to be a while now since I have to clean out everything due to what we think is a blue-alegae breakout ):


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## Soph7244 (Sep 18, 2013)

Hows he doing today?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

he still scratching a little, so did you stopped medications or you continue still?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

Still medicating. I'm going to start doing salt dips soon and see if that helps him any


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Agree , please give update in a little bit.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

After almost 3 weeks of no symptoms Carls back to scratching and coughing again :/ right now he's laying at the top of the tank with his head up against the the surface. I don't understand how after almost a month it started again. did the flukes never actually go away? Im so confused we did every possible treatment and he was doing fine until yesterday. He's still eating and pooping normal and bubble nesting but he has these random moments of lethargy and scratching and I don't get how after a month suddenly this all starts again. I'm at a loss I really don't know whats wrong with him or if this sickness he has will ever go away for good even with all the medicine I give him ): I'm afraid he's going to go back to the way he was 3 months ago ugh I thought this was all over but I guess its not ): Right now he's a bit bloated so I'm not feeding but before he got bloated he ate 3 pellets quite fast

UPDATE: his left gill is full of blood lesions. has blood spots all over it looks really infected. his right gill looks fine. left gill sticks out and he rubs that one a lot. I'm going to do General Cure now so this doesn't get worse. I don't understand how Clout didn't do anything


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i think you don't have another choice but start him on meds again since it is obviously recurrence . I am wondering if blufish bettas recovered completely. I also messaged her so lets wait what she says. So sorry. I think you are right start him on General cure for now.


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

thanks so much! when I was looking at him I noticed darkness on his gills so I got my flashlight and thats how I found he had blood and mucous all over his left gill. I took out the filter pad and threw in General Cure I hope it can kill some of the flukes so that his gill doesn't suffer further. Can his gill recover? it looks terrible. He's still pretty active but at times he'll get really lethargic and breathe rapidly for a good 5 minutes or so. I wonder what I did wrong in treatment that caused them to come back :/ this fish is a fighter though most fish would of given up with Flukes in them this long. poor guy I wish I could figure out how he got them and how to rid of them for good.

also dark black and grey spots to. how do i know if what Im seeing are flukes? Ive read that in severe cases you can see flukes hanging off the gills. he's super spazzy right now probably really irritated in the gills


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I think he has all symptoms of it Inflamed gills, scratching , breathing problem. I don't remember did you use 3tsp/gall of the aquarium salt before? Did it helped at all?


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## BettaPrincess13 (Jun 2, 2013)

I used Epsom Salt and I thought it did but I guess nothing I did worked :/


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Continue with General Cure see if he will improved . I would say that aquarium salt would me more helpful with flukes than Epsom. Hmmm now i can recall that you was doing salt bath. I was sure you was using aquarium salt though. I know bluefish was also doing aquarium salt bath. 
She was not on the forum yet i am sure she will reply to your post as soon as she see it.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I was talking to Sakura about you and that is what she wrote to me:

''It should be possible to get rid of most of them, or at least enough that they are no longer a problem. 

One thing I've read is that when treating any kind of parasite, it's best to treat once, wait about three weeks, and then treat again to get any eggs/larvae that may have grown up. The three weeks is about how long it would take for the eggs to hatch and grow up into adult parasites.''
__________________


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