# Melano or black, how to tell the difference.



## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I guess the title says it all. Heh heh.
I ask because I really want to produce a super black giant, or ten and I know melano females are infertile. Or rather, thier eggs are non viable. 
How do I tell?


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## alecmerkel (Sep 17, 2015)

Sorry for the copy paste answer but this is pretty much one of the best resources out there that can explain it best.



> The mutated gene (m) is recessive to the normal black gene (M). This means that when a melano black betta is spawned to a normal betta that does not have the mutated black gene, all offspring would look like multicolored bettas. These offspring are carrying the gene for melanism and are called melano-geno (Mm), however they are not distinguishable from normal multicolors. These recessive characteristics become visible in the offspring when both parents carry the mutant gene.
> The melanophores from melanos grow very differently from that seen in black lace and wild type [18]. They pile up and are very sticky, which is why they produce such a dense black. Melanos have a lot of speckling throughout their fins that that make them look so dark, these are actually 'balls' of melanophores. Preliminary studies have shown that these melanophores have extra adhesion proteins. One hypothesis is that these proteins are also responsible for female infertility. Melano females will produce eggs during the act of spawning like a normal female, but something happens during the hatching process that causes the fertilized egg to rupture.


http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABcolorgenetics.htm

You can get Melano offspring by using royalblue fem with recessive melano geno I think. I wish someone would expand on this. I know trilobite has bred melano's before.


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

This is another "copy pasted" reply. Sorry. But if you scroll down (all the way down) to the part about Super Black, it seems like Super Blacks don't have a steel irid. Not that I ever notice them in Melano Betta photos in AB.

http://www.bettysplendens.com/the-different-types-of-black.html


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Melano have matte black finnage and often tend to have irid in the body, like my old boy



And this one, although has les body irid you can still see the "thickness" of the black in the finnage









Super black and black lace often have trace amounts of irid in the finnage but not so much on the body, like this.









You can get all type of irid in both melano and superblack, so basing it on irid colour wont work. 

If youre working with a superblack and melano hasnt been introduced into the line then you probably wont need to worry about infertile females (since melano is a pretty simple recessive gene and doesnt really have any sneaky tricks in its inheritance, unlike most other colours lol) 

Basically if its hasnt been added to a line then it has 0 chance of popping up. 

Id ask the breeder if youre unsure if its been added or not, otherwise just send any unwanted melanos to me!


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

That's what I was looking for! Thanks Trilobite.
Now to go looking for a giant black female. 
The artcles alecmerkel pointed me to I actually have bookmarked, but none have really clear pictures of what the different blacks look like. I'm a visual learner. Lol
If any melanos come from this I'll be sure and give you first pick!


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

What would you call this? I think he's black Orchid with super black being his base. But his blue scales are matte, not metallic or irid. The white on his head has almost completely faded, but they looked like Dragonscale. They were matte and as thick as his blue scales.
Is this blue dragonscale over a black Orchid?
View attachment 760945


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

its said the ++genes that make super black

http://www.bettysplendens.com/metallics-and-masked.html


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Interesting how to keep the masked gene while breeding away from metallic to create solid super black. Where the samurai pattern on Vincent is actually thick metallic the process of breeding away from metallic to a partislly masked super black has been started. He is dense dark raven black under those scales, including his lips and chin. If I get hold of a super black or partial non metallic black giant female I could get there quickly I think.


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

i think it should be, worth to try,and will be fun because even if it fail to create super black, it will be closer to your goal, a very dark partially HM giant (if you use normal size HMPK female). 
Err, you can end up with many Vincent looks alike fry too , how cool is that hahaha


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Witchipoo said:


> What would you call this? I think he's black Orchid with super black being his base. But his blue scales are matte, not metallic or irid. The white on his head has almost completely faded, but they looked like Dragonscale. They were matte and as thick as his blue scales.
> Is this blue dragonscale over a black Orchid?
> View attachment 760945


Yep blue dragon over black lace/orchid (pretty much the same thing) with marble


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## alecmerkel (Sep 17, 2015)

liamthen said:


> i think it should be, worth to try,and will be fun because even if it fail to create super black, it will be closer to your goal, a very dark partially HM giant (if you use normal size HMPK female).
> Err, you can end up with many Vincent looks alike fry too , how cool is that hahaha



Vincent look alikes will be sweet!!!


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