# Science Expirament :(



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

So, my Phys. Science teacher has a Biology class that has to create an ecosystem. Music these people chose fish... To my horror, when I walked in today, there were 5 bettas set to go into two different tanks; they are all females. Four VTs: Turquoise, Royal Blue, and Cambodian, and one CT baby. One tank is a 20 high and one is a 10. They aren't allowed filters or heaters. Majority of them don't have live plants. The one tank that did had 5 feeder Goldie's and two mystery snails that died. :-: They have to live in an "ecosystem" for two months--- without food. This is going to be a long two months. I don't know any of the sophomores in that class.

Is there a way I could convince the teacher that this is not okay? Suggestions?


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## Kadington (Apr 14, 2016)

Amano shrimp are so much better for this ecosystem experiment. You can get away with sticking shrimp in the tank not cleaning and having them live off the algae in the tank. I did something similar for my forestry class in high school but we used tilapia and were given supplies and instructions on how to make our own canister filters. We also had a big stock 1000 gallon vat that was filter by a large dyi sump. We students learned about nature's nitrogen cycle and about the benefits that bacteria can have in the natural world.

Sorry Rambling on a bit. I'd go after it with this angle. Tell you teacher you want the students to know about proper fish keeping he should try and teach them about the nitrogen cycle and how ammonia is converted to Nirate then Nirite. Point out that it would be cruel to leave the fish as is and that there is no lesson in dead fish. Tell him that he can have the class make DIY filters and teach the students how to properly care for animals. 

It might be just a loss cause because soo many people see fish as nothing but disposable pets. If he does that.. Make it your mission to tell every teacher and every staff member at the school why doing this 'ecosystem' is a bad idea, bring knowledge to the table not emotions. Heck make a report about it and give it to your Princple. You might do nothing but someone will probably listen and be wiser by you spreading the information.


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## CollegeBettas (Feb 23, 2016)

I did a similar experiment in Environmental Science. We used Zebra Danios, but the classes before us all used Bettas. What we had to do was take a 2-liter green bottle and add pond dirt, pond water, and an anacharis. Then we add the fish and close up the bottle for two weeks and they are supposed to eat the plant and exchange oxygen and CO2. Needless to say, all the fish were dead within the first week, except mine, which lived the full two weeks and died due to the fact I had no idea how to care for him outside of the bottle. It's really what got me into fish keeping. 
As for convincing them not to do it, I have no clue. Using a more vegetarian fish, it would work better, but there is still an ammonia build up. If I remember right, in a completely closed ecosystem (like the closed bottle), ammonia isn't harmful. I've heard this when people talk about acclimating fish that have come in the mail because you don't want to leave them in the bag once you open it because the ammonia becomes harmful to them. 
But like Kadington said, don't put emotion into. They are more likely to change if you present them with facts to why it won't work rather than giving them puppy dog eyes and saying it's not right. Personally, I would print out facts from a reputable source, and probably multiple sources, and figure out how to make it better, if possible.
I think using a goldfish (since they eat plants and live in cooler water) with a plant in a completely closed environment, it may work as an experiment. Also, you could propose doing an aquaponic system instead. My college has a small aquaponic system set up with some fancy goldfish. Once the fish get too big, they have a small outdoor pond for them as well.


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## kanped (Jul 4, 2016)

My 2 cents but I think it's an argument you can't lose. You're no dummy; I've seen you make posts here and you know your stuff. The challenge is getting what you know as fact across to the teacher who decided upon pursuing this experiment.

I would attack their premise and undermine their knowledge because, regardless of whatever authority they have, you are better at keeping betta than the teacher is. So, they're trying to teach a class in the hopes that you will learn something. What is it that they hope you will learn? Ask them that. What is the purpose of creating this ecosystem? Is it even, really, an ecosystem? No; it's a closed system. There are no live plants, there is no live food. All things in a closed system (say it with me) tend towards entropy. The expected outcome, by Newton's law, is that the fish will die. What do you learn from that? Can you determine exactly why they died; does this give you any new information? Couldn't you learn a lot more if they had lived?

You don't need to seem angry and you don't need to accuse anyone of anything. In my experience, at any rate, all you need to do with someone who is doing something stupid or wrong is ask them what they hope to gain from doing it and then use cold hard facts (e.g. "betta are tropical fish and have evolved to survive at this temperature range, here's why, this is how their physiology works...") to show them why that intention is misguided. 

You're supposed to be a student, their job is supposed to be able to answer those questions. But you're better at this than they are and you can ask questions that they cannot answer. They will then realise the error of their ways and they'll think that they've made their own mind up about it, because all you were doing is providing them the knowledge to make a more educated decision. Or, at least, that's how it feels to them. 

You'll often hear it said it's impossible to win an argument against an idiot and it's true, because you have no tools to make them empathetic towards your point of view. Teachers are easy targets because they aren't allowed to be idiots; they're supposed to have a point to make, some information to disseminate. Their job is to communicate and be empathetic. When the weight of evidence is in your favour, they cannot win and if you frame it cleverly (as innocent curiosity and a genuine hope to learn something new based on what you already know), they'll never even know it was an argument.

Manipulative, sure. But you asked how to convince someone. It's manipulative by nature.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Would have thought a science teacher would at least understand the nitrogen cycle and made sure to research the species intended for her experiment. Tell her its going to be a biased experiment due to the fact that the fish will be affected by nitrite and ammonia spikes as well as being conditions being too cold for the fish to behave in a natural way.
Let her know the true ecosystem for bettas is heavily planted water bodies at ~27C . Maybe suggest "simulating rain" in the sneaky form of water changes

Ask what the hypothesis is, what are you comparing? Bigger tanks will have smaller temp fluctuations and take longer for toxins to reach a deadly level = fish has a higher chance of survival, but that doesnt have anything to do with ecosystems, just poor care. Theres no way of knowing which variable killed the fish/kept the fish alive since everything is going against them

Also point out the obvious, bettas are carnivorous and although they may survive 2 months without food, it really has nothing to do with an ecosystem, unless you have a mosquito farm living in your tank....but then again youd need something for the mosquitoes to eat...and something for the creature providing blood for the mosquito..and so on...there really is no such thing as a closed ecosystem, especially if dealing with carnivores

Point out that an ecosystem is a community of organisms interacting in their physical environment, if you just have a fish in a box then you hardly have any interacting species, suggest plants and nitrifying bacteria. Point out the role of each and try and get each "ecosystem" to have them. Or at least make one tank have all the "good stuff" so you can compare survival rates on the types of setups. Maybe 3 will suffer but at least everyone will get to seethe happy, healthy betta in the good tank and change their minds about betta care

If all else fails just casually drop a scientific article about bettas and their habitat on her desk lol, you cant argue with science especially a "science" teacher


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## Mothercrow (Sep 4, 2016)

I can't say anything that hasn't been said, except what I know about goldfish. They can survive long periods without food, and at a normal room temperature, and they can even eat plants if provided. But they're heavy waste producers and would not survive that long without water changes. The ammonia would build up quickly and kill them.

This is not an ecosystem that the teacher is creating. At no point are any of these fish in a system for which they have evolved. I don't envy you. This cruelty upsets me and I doubt that I could remain calm.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## LittleMan (Jan 16, 2016)

This is ridiculous.....a science teacher promoting this? 
Time to check their credentials.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Thanks guys. It hurts to say this; every last one is dead. Guppies, Bettas, Goldfish, Snails, Zebra Danios, Mollies, Platies, Pleco, and Shrimp. Even the earthworms are dead.


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## Kadington (Apr 14, 2016)

-face palm- It only proves that this lesson taught nothing more then the suffering of animals... I'm guessing your teacher was trying to do this?

How to Make a Closed Aquatic Ecosystem (with Pictures)

It's impossible to make a closed ecosystem when that system is not air tight. I guess the only thing to do now is ask the teacher what he hoped to teach in light of this waste of life. Also talk to your Principle and vice principle about this and explain why this experiment was bad to begin with.. Talk about it with your parents, see if you can get them to call the school. Heck talk to a few parents.


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## Mothercrow (Sep 4, 2016)

ThatFishThough said:


> Thanks guys. It hurts to say this; every last one is dead. Guppies, Bettas, Goldfish, Snails, Zebra Danios, Mollies, Platies, Pleco, and Shrimp. Even the earthworms are dead.


This is so horrible and senseless.


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## LittleMan (Jan 16, 2016)

Horrible....after that class is over and you get your final grade, I would send a note to the department head.
First class case of animal cruelty.

What on earth did this prove?


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Luckily I was not in this particular Biology Class, I'm in Physical Science and Chemistry. 

SIP to all the fish & inverts that died a horrible death. <3

ETA: It proved that Sophomores are horrible people that are incapable of doing research and providing proper homes for animals. It also proved that this particular teacher has no feelings; especially for fish.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Oh, also, the project is worth 270 points. So everyone is failing this semester, ha!


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## Vrisnem (Jan 25, 2016)

Oh jesus. That sounds so cruel.  I really hope we won't end up doing something like this. I study Biology, intending to specialise in Marine & Freshwater Science from next year.


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## LittleMan (Jan 16, 2016)

I would still be penning a lovely note to the dept head at some point..


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The world is full of idiots. Seriously, how could anyone think that project would be a good idea? While you weren't able to save this round of fish, you can try to prevent this project from ever happening again.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Hahaha! I wrote a note to both the head department & the teacher. The head department (after all, we are a pro-life christian school) was horrified. The teacher blew it off like it was some kind of joke. I won't be seeing that teacher around again.


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