# CO2/Right fertilizers lighting help needed



## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

What is the start of costs of a CO2 system? My plants are doing ok but just not vibrant green like i want. Use Flourish root tabs and at Excel at least twice a week. Some plants have some yellowing to leaves. Others have some brown spots and seem to have sediment issues on leaves. Too much light? Usually on about 12 hrs. 10 gallon tank with one betta and 6 cory cats and 1 mystery snail. *HOB Aquaclear 20 filter. Running T8 light.* Plants do have new growth sprouts but just not thriving so wondered if CO2 would be beneficial or overkill. 

*Plants:* Narrow leaf chain sword, dwarf sag, brazialian pennywort, crypt parva, amazon sword, rotala, green cabomba, anarchias, and scarlet temple (forgot other name for it), petite anubias, dwarf baby tears (tank has mineralized topsoil and sand topper)


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## aqua hero (May 13, 2015)

themamaj said:


> What is the start of costs of a CO2 system? My plants are doing ok but just not vibrant green like i want. Use Flourish root tabs and at Excel at least twice a week. Some plants have some yellowing to leaves. Others have some brown spots and seem to have sediment issues on leaves. Too much light? Usually on about 12 hrs. 10 gallon tank with one betta and 6 cory cats and 1 mystery snail. *HOB Aquaclear 20 filter. Running T8 light.* Plants do have new growth sprouts but just not thriving so wondered if CO2 would be beneficial or overkill.
> 
> *Plants:* Narrow leaf chain sword, dwarf sag, brazialian pennywort, crypt parva, amazon sword, rotala, green cabomba, anarchias, and scarlet temple (forgot other name for it), petite anubias, dwarf baby tears (tank has mineralized topsoil and sand topper)


alot of the plants you mentions prefer to take nutrents out of the water. you should dose liquid ferts like TNC Complete, Tropica Specialist etc which contain ALL the nutrients plants need to grow lush. Excel only lasts in a tank for 12 hours, so you are suppose to dose everyday. inconstancy and fluctuations can lead to algae. the lighting you have right now is fine.

i personally never use root tabs, but buy good plant substrate and ferts.


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

How long does the TNC last? Thank you I didn't know that about Flourish and prob have lacked consistentcy so does explain some algae growth on corners.


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## aqua hero (May 13, 2015)

themamaj said:


> How long does the TNC last? Thank you I didn't know that about Flourish and prob have lacked consistentcy so does explain some algae growth on corners.


It depends on how big your tank is and how much of the fert you buy. Should last around 3-5 months


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

I'd highly recommend to cease using the excel and switch instead to plain old Seachem Flourish Comprehensive + a broad range macro fertiliser (or a combined one as suggested above, which does both trace elements and macro elements). I have had nothing but bad luck with excel melting my soft plants like anacharis and cabomba. First they go brown, then they die. It's really just an algaecide so if you don't have algae, it's not really doing much anyway. Even if you do have algae, I've found the best way to combat this is strong and healthy plants rather than an algaecide. A little algae is inevitable. Another thing I've found helpful for algae is to have a floating plant like salvinia minima up top, which reduced some of the light right down to the bottom where algae is most likely to take hold.

I got a small Fluval nano CO2 diffuser system for £20, so have a look on amazon for this or something similar. It's incredibly easy to use. Small CO2 systems needn't be cost-prohibitive or needlessly complicated in small tanks, and it has made the most difference to my plants... strong colours and crazily fast growth.

I use Flourish Comprehensive and a combined Macro fertiliser (there are lots of these on the market) once a week with water changes. Together with a good light, my plants have turned into triffids.

Also, 12 hours of lighting is pushing it a little. Try having it on for 9-10 hours instead. I've found anything more encourages algae rather than the plants.

I would say if you have good light then you need to also give them good ferts and CO2. Otherwise the equation (if you like) becomes unbalanced and leads to deficiency. They're getting one thing they need to grow well but not the others. But if you add a small CO2 diffuser and just change around your ferts a little to remove the excel and provide a full spectrum of both trace and macro elements, then you'll almost certainly see better, faster growth. There's no reason to remove the root tabs, just ensure you don't over-fertilise. Start off conservatively with the water column ferts (maybe a half dose weekly) and see how they do. They may not need any more than that.

Here's how I like to think of it:

High light = CO2 + full spectrum ferts required = fast growth
Low light = CO2 + ferts not required = slower growth (but still healthy, as long as you have the right low tech plants)


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## aqua hero (May 13, 2015)

dannifluff said:


> I'd highly recommend to cease using the excel and switch instead to plain old Seachem Flourish Comprehensive + a broad range macro fertiliser (or a combined one as suggested above, which does both trace elements and macro elements). I have had nothing but bad luck with excel melting my soft plants like anacharis and cabomba. First they go brown, then they die. It's really just an algaecide so if you don't have algae, it's not really doing much anyway. Even if you do have algae, I've found the best way to combat this is strong and healthy plants rather than an algaecide. A little algae is inevitable. Another thing I've found helpful for algae is to have a floating plant like salvinia minima up top, which reduced some of the light right down to the bottom where algae is most likely to take hold.
> 
> I got a small Fluval nano CO2 diffuser system for £20, so have a look on amazon for this or something similar. It's incredibly easy to use. Small CO2 systems needn't be cost-prohibitive or needlessly complicated in small tanks, and it has made the most difference to my plants... strong colours and crazily fast growth.
> 
> ...


I agree with the excel. Some of his plants will melt because of it. He could do DIY C02. But why bother buying two seachem products when he can just buy one fert that has both micro and macro. Doesn't make sense. TNC complete is even cheaper than the flourish as well.

Also not adding ferts in a planted tank leads to bad news. Especially if you are using Co2. Most of the time people add ferts but not Co2. Ferts are the food for the plants. Wouldn't make sense starving the plants even if it is low light.


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

aqua hero said:


> I agree with the excel. Some of his plants will melt because of it. He could do DIY C02. But why bother buying two seachem products when he can just buy one fert that has both micro and macro. Doesn't make sense. TNC complete is even cheaper than the flourish as well.
> 
> Also not adding ferts in a planted tank leads to bad news. Especially if you are using Co2. Most of the time people add ferts but not Co2. Ferts are the food for the plants. Wouldn't make sense starving the plants even if it is low light.


I think the reason to use separate trace and macro fertilisers is if you have a very complex planted tank and want to control specific levels of different macros and trace elements. But to do this successfully you need to also monitor those elements. An all-in-one fertiliser makes it impossible to change up your fertilisers, and if your plants have specific deficiencies, you need to be able to control this. I hope to learn more about this when I have a big tank, but for smaller tanks like our Betta homes, all-in-one fertilisers are usually sufficient. I just split mine up into trace/macros because I have one macro mix for one tank and a slightly different macro mix for my tank with red plants in it. If I used an all-in-one then my rotalas/ludwigias etc would grow fine, but they'd lose the nice pinkish colour.

Regarding the no ferts in a low light tank, this is because in low tech tanks usually the waste generated by the biological processes of the fish/nitrogen cycle are sufficient (provided you have selected the appropriate plants) to keep them fertilised. Since they won't have high light/CO2 to promote fast growth, they require less fertilisation. But I agree you should be prepared to add them if your plants show signs of deficiency. But plants such as anubias, java ferns, moss balls, duckweed, the usual 'easy' plants can often manage just fine on what the fish produce. So you wouldn't be starving the plants. They will only use up as much as they need, and if they're not growing so fast due to lower lighting and CO2, they won't need much.

Unless you have the specific tests/equipment to monitor the levels of fertilisers/CO2 in your tank, I believe you should always be conservative. Over-fertilising can lead to algae growth, or worse... high nitrates/phosphates/dangerous levels of CO2. If not monitoring such levels, I always recommend starting off with half doses and seeing how plants do. That's why I like a CO2 diffuser rather than DIY CO2, since it's easier to control. Sometimes a little goes a long way


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Ok my head is spinning trying to absorb info. Sorry can you explain first is my tank considered a low tech tank (10 gallon, T8 light, no CO2)?

Second, I know I can find the Flourish Complete locally, but what is a recommended broad spectrum macro fertilizer? Am I ok to just dose these once a week at water change? I obviously have not learned enough about minerals etc so something I can have a set dose of would be helpful. 

Can you also help me understand CO2 for newbies. I know there are diffusers and pressurized CO2 tanks. I have looked briefly at them at store but sort of overwhelmed by whole thing. So saying a CO2 system would be a great help for plants, what do I need to get to start from scratch and how does it work exactly? 

I really appreciate the inputs and information. I am always amazed at how much information I still don't know but trying hard to learn. Have invested a lot of time and money into tanks so really want them to thrive along with the fish!


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## aqua hero (May 13, 2015)

dannifluff said:


> I think the reason to use separate trace and macro fertilisers is if you have a very complex planted tank and want to control specific levels of different macros and trace elements. But to do this successfully you need to also monitor those elements. An all-in-one fertiliser makes it impossible to change up your fertilisers, and if your plants have specific deficiencies, you need to be able to control this. I hope to learn more about this when I have a big tank, but for smaller tanks like our Betta homes, all-in-one fertilisers are usually sufficient. I just split mine up into trace/macros because I have one macro mix for one tank and a slightly different macro mix for my tank with red plants in it. If I used an all-in-one then my rotalas/ludwigias etc would grow fine, but they'd lose the nice pinkish colour.
> 
> Regarding the no ferts in a low light tank, this is because in low tech tanks usually the waste generated by the biological processes of the fish/nitrogen cycle are sufficient (provided you have selected the appropriate plants) to keep them fertilised. Since they won't have high light/CO2 to promote fast growth, they require less fertilisation. But I agree you should be prepared to add them if your plants show signs of deficiency. But plants such as anubias, java ferns, moss balls, duckweed, the usual 'easy' plants can often manage just fine on what the fish produce. So you wouldn't be starving the plants. They will only use up as much as they need, and if they're not growing so fast due to lower lighting and CO2, they won't need much.
> 
> Unless you have the specific tests/equipment to monitor the levels of fertilisers/CO2 in your tank, I believe you should always be conservative. Over-fertilising can lead to algae growth, or worse... high nitrates/phosphates/dangerous levels of CO2. If not monitoring such levels, I always recommend starting off with half doses and seeing how plants do. That's why I like a CO2 diffuser rather than DIY CO2, since it's easier to control. Sometimes a little goes a long way


I understand your points. I personally use EI dosing to control the amounts I have.

Pressurised is better but not alot can afford it so suggested the diy Co2. Also some people have had success.


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

themamaj said:


> Ok my head is spinning trying to absorb info. Sorry can you explain first is my tank considered a low tech tank (10 gallon, T8 light, no CO2)?
> 
> Second, I know I can find the Flourish Complete locally, but what is a recommended broad spectrum macro fertilizer? Am I ok to just dose these once a week at water change? I obviously have not learned enough about minerals etc so something I can have a set dose of would be helpful.
> 
> ...



Sorry themamaj! I forget how complicated it sounds to people who are new to planted tanks. Don't worry, it'll sink in eventually. I'm pretty new myself and only just starting to research the more complicated stuff as well.

So... first question. In my opinion, a low tech tank stops being low tech the minute you add anything extra for your plants. This would include a 6500+ spectrum plant light, fertilisers, anything. Some people will differ on this, but the important thing is not to worry. 'High tech' does not have to mean 'ridiculously complicated'. It just means you are adding things in for your plants that aren't naturally provided by fish waste/natural lighting etc.

I do think though, that for optimum plant growth, it's important to ensure you have a balanced equation. That means in addition to good lighting (which you have) you need to add the correct spectrum of fertilisers and some form of additional CO2. More below.

So, Flourish Comprehensive (do you mean Comprehensive? I've not heard of Flourish Complete before?) is a trace element fertiliser only. If you want the absolute easiest option (just one bottle) then you would need to look for something else. As aqua hero suggested, TNC Complete or something similar. You want to look for something that does both micro and macro elements in one go. If you do a little research on micro/macro fertilisation in the planted aquarium, it should help you get your head around the difference. There is no reason why, in time, as you develop your skills, you cannot move to fertilising such things separately and there are range of different ways to do this. But for now, just to ensure your plants are getting everything they need, a single fertiliser like TNC Complete would be a good start.

CO2 for newbies 

You're right, there are lots of different methods of adding CO2 to an aquarium. Plants use the carbon in CO2 to grow, releasing the O2 part into the water, during photosynthesis. In a system with higher lighting, they will be trying to use more of it, which is why a lack of CO2 can be (in my experience) the biggest inhibitor to growth if you have T5 or T8 lighting.

For newbies, there are two different methods you can try. DIY CO2 is where you make your own CO2 system using ordinary household items. There are loads of step-by-step guides around so Google it and see if it is something you would like to try. This method is usually suggested if you suspect CO2 may be an issue but don't yet want to invest in a more complicated system. It gives you a chance to knock something up cheaply and try it out temporarily to see if it makes a difference to your plants.

For something a little more permanent, there are a range of different diffuser systems you can buy. I use this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...qid=1444199397&ref_=sr_1_fkmr2_2&sr=8-2-fkmr2.

With the Fluval Nano Kit, you literally need nothing else (other than buying replacement CO2 bottles occasionally... the kit initially comes with everything you need though). It couldn't be easier to use. You attach the airline to the CO2 bottle and the diffuser. Then, you simply pop the plastic diffuser into your aquarium, filling it with water and suctioning it to the side. Once its in place, you twist the cap of the CO2 bottle and the CO2 bubbles into the diffuser, displacing the water. Once the diffuser is full, you close the CO2 cap. I fill mine once every morning and over the course of the day the CO2 slowly diffuses out into the water, and the water refills the diffuser.

There are more complicated systems out there, but there are also a range of similar systems available on the market designed for 'nano' tanks and set ups. All you can do is decide if you'd like to try one out 

I hope this helps. Sorry to have confused you earlier!


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Love this nano kit and only $20? So from what I understand this comes with everything I need to start a basic CO2 set up for my 10 gallon? Do you order the fluval canisters from amazon? I saw a 3 pack for $16. Curious how long a canister of that size would last or if better option for canister. Yes was talking about flourish complete sorry for confusion there. Will try to read up more on minerals. Thank you so much for your time and help! Feeling much better about trying CO2...and if works out well hmmm there is that other empty tank downstairs haha!


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

It comes with one canister. My first canister is going on 6 weeks or so and haven't yet had to replace it.


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

Oh, and yes, it does come with everything you need to do basic CO2 diffusion. The canisters are made for that little set so you just get the little 3 packs as replacements  but I imagine each one will last at least a couple months if used once daily, as mine have done. It's a simple little system but I think for nano tanks, it's just perfect. Larger set ups inevitably need more complicated systems but I found in my 7 gallon cubes these are perfect, and my plants exploded with growth as soon as I added it!

Here's a picture of it size wise. It's not the tiniest of things and my Betta sometimes likes to chill out in the bottom chamber when it's full of water, lol, but as you can see it's not particularly intrusive either, especially when the plants go maaaad (and they will, hehe).


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Gorgeous tank! I ordered today  Cant wait!


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Dont think I can order TNC complete since US. Read a bunch tonight on minerals. Understand much better but not sure want to individual dose yet. Kniw of any other brand all in one?


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

Well, since you already have root tabs and Flourish, why don't you try them out on that + the CO2 for a while and see if that makes a difference? It may just be the CO2 that was inhibiting growth. Not being the US myself, I'm not sure what is available on the market there, but it may be the root tabs + Flourish Comprehensive + fish waste are providing enough fertilisation for now. If you have new growth, despite the signs of deficiency, I don't think you're far off getting the balance right. Try trimming off any dead leaves etc, and if you're not seeing any dramatic improvement in a few weeks of adding CO2, to save wasting the flourish, you could just try getting a combined macro fertiliser? To round things out, as it were. Or in the mean time have a good search around for all-in-one fertilisers.

Good things to research for the future are EI (estimated index) dosing, as it helps you understand how much your aquarium actually needs, for whenever you feel ready to step up a gear


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

I read about EI. Definitely sounds like way to go. Do you use a set measurement each week and then do the 50% water change? Prob would be fine with that if can get right dosing. Do you have to do any additional testing of elements?


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

Lol... *guilty face* I don't actually do EI it myself. I just kind of 'guesstimate' based on how my plants look. Perhaps not the best way of doing things :/

But EI is generally a good way of doing fertilisers without getting all the monitoring equipment. And yes, you just use a set measurement weekly and then your 50% water change.

I have always been conservative with fertilisers though. What I tend to do is use Seachem Flourish + a pre-mixed macro (often called NPK) fertiliser and just add the recommended 'daily' dose for each of those products twice a week. I've found that is all I've needed to maintain good growth. I also only fill my diffuser once a day, whereas I believe Fluval recommend to do it twice.


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Dannifluff I got my CO2 unit today. It is the cutest thing and as you said nonintrusive. Of course Goliath now has one more thing to stalk haha. Maybe it will keep him occupied and away from catfish food. One question, when I hooked it up and filled chambers, big bubbles came out which I would assume it would do as fills with gas. Maybe i will be able to see this with experience but how do you know exactly that the chambers are full? It looked like water went down to small amount but didn't know how much to fill and didn't want to over do it. It may just be my imagination but plants already look greener. I hope it makes big difference. Using the flourish comprehensive and trying a propel iron supp. It said it was time released so only had to dose it 3 x a week. I guess we will see. Still looking for a macro fertilizer. Unfortunately most clerks at our lps know very little about that. I'll do some more research. Thanks again for your input. Excited with new system and couldn't wait to share with you


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

Good stuff!

Yes when you put it in your must ensure you fill up the diffuser with water (put it in sidewards until its completely submerged, then adjust it upright). Otherwise it will trap air inside and obviously CO2 and air look completely the same, lol. But when it's full of water and you open the CO2 bottle, you'll see it slowly bubble in and displace the water. Just then fill it up until both chambers are full (you'll know when because a bubble will pop out of the top, but they do have markers on the side so with practise you can get it just right until it fills up to the markers). Also ensure your airline tubing is firmly secured to the diffuser. If you've got it on correctly, the CO2 should be filling up the bottom chamber first, then the top chamber, then it bubbles out the top when full. If it's filling up in a different way you might have your tubing connected to the wrong outlet.

I hope it makes a difference! I don't know if you can get it in the US but I use Planta Gainer macros, which are a Polish product. I know Seachem do the macros as separate products (i.e. nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium separately) but then you have to do the EI dosing. Since you already have root tabs and a micro fertilisers, I'd maybe just see how it goes for now with the CO2. It may be that they don't need anything else. I predict that they will love the CO2. I did actually start to see a difference to my plants within a matter of days.

P.S. My Betta Arthur likes to hang out in the bottom chamber of the CO2 diffuser when it's full of water. At first I thought he'd got himself stuck but he soon learned how to swim downwards and out, so don't panic if you see your Betta just chilling in there. If he's anything like my Betta, once you approach the tank and he thinks food is about to appear, he'll soon figure out how to get himself out of there.


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Lol good to know!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

A note of caution: If you have shrimp or Crays in a tank be careful with adding CO2. Too much and they keel over. Added CO2 also tends to lower pH so watch parameters. Since I have shrimp and Crays in four of five tanks I'm always double checking on things that might harm them. I'd croak if I killed Larry the Vampire Shrimp. :-( He's going on two.

However, all of my plants are low-to-medium light so all I need are Flourish Comprehensive, root and Iron tabs.


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Yes Larry for sure needs to not keel over. Too funny. Glad to know. The CO 2 is on my 10 gallon planted w betta and cories. I plan to put crazy in 5.5 with lower light plants.


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## vliscony (Sep 19, 2014)

About CO2... I used to have a house full of tanks with a big 125 Gallon in the Living room with suspended lights, and automated CO2 (PH regulator!), and then I did not have a tank for 15+ years, and this last year a betta came into my life, as a gift, and I've been at it since then. Now running a 5 gallon heavily planted tank (Aqueon CUE5). Replaced the filter within a month, now running an API Superclean 5-20, and then I added a Deep Blue 3W spot light to the somewhat weak lighting, but now switching to a better quality LED light, since the original light had by now about 8 burnt out LEDs.
I decided that CO2 was not a problem for I have a betta and seven pygmy cories, all of which can get O2 directly from the air if needed. For CO2 I ended up having first the Nutrafin Natural Plant (fermentation based) CO2 system, which is cute, but not enough, then I supplement with the Fluval 20G system, and I fill that up in the morning, just once. Those two together do well enough so I am donating one plant a month, sometimes two to my local pet store. I am having a ball.
Next thing somebody gave me a 29 Gallon tank, so then I'm going to do a more serious setup. Will check in on this thread.
As one added comment, I come to the conclusion that a 5 gallon planted tank is minimum for a betta, and 10 gallon is the minimum if you want to have any tank mates. I like cories, because bettas can let food drop to the bottom sometimes, and the cories keep it clean, but the betta might bully them a bit, so you gotta watch it.


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Thank you. great advice


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