# EE breeding



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Years ago, when the veil tails came about, (Long before my "betta life) It was the THING! then they found out how difficult it was for the fish to carry around those very unnatural and heavy fins. So the hobby turned toward shorter fins for the good of the fish.

When the EE first came about, they were very pretty. Added a new dimision and "Flare" to an already gorgeous fish. Now it seems, they are breeding for bigger and longer and frillier pectoral fins. The fish seem to not have control of the outer portions of these fins. I do not own an EE betta. But do love the look of the shorter ones. While watching the videos of the ones with the larger EE fins, they seem to be a bit of a hindrance. An avid swimmer myself, yes, I'm not a fish, I can see it would be a problem to have a "flap" that I cannot control, hanging off the ends of my hands. Just a thought that I wanted to share.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Weird... I have an ee and she swims around perfectly normally.


----------



## Saphira101 (Nov 14, 2012)

Are VT's fins really that heavy? O_O I have a VT...

Also, perhaps it depends on the breeder, stock, etc.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Im not a fan of EE either. Personally it makes them look stupid and clownish. Ive seen some fish with pectorals that are way bigger than their caudals, theres no way that can be good for a Betta considering that they use their pectorals constantly when swimming, more so than their other fins.


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Mattsbettas, yes, he may swim "perfectly normally", but two questions, how big are his "ears, (which they are not ears, they would be arms, if anything) and how much extra energy does he have to exert compared to one with ee in order to swim?

Saphira101, yes it all depends on just how long and large the "veil" is. The fish department manager at the lps near my house is also a member of the fish club. One day when I was in the store, she invited me up to her office to show me her betta. I was SHOCKED! This poor fella had a tail longer than his body. He would swim so that it would drape across the plants and the cavewthat she had in his tank. you could not intise him away from those things if you wanted. I asked her if she takes those things out when she cleans and she said sometimes. When she does, he goes straight to the bottom and waits till she returns them. Never freely swimming around the tank. I felt so sorry for him. Wondered if he would ever discover tail biting. He lived a short two years. Sad. I know she took wonderful care of him, but know it shortened his life.

Just think of what swimming entails. To swim, you are basically pushing yourself against the water to move. When a fish does not have control of a part of their fin, all that part is doing is causing resistance. Like a weight. To say that veiltails are heavy, does not really mean that the tail itself has alot of weight to it. It means that the resistance it creates in the water makes it heavy to drag through the water as they swim.

Think about this. Think about putting socks on your hands, with the ends hanging off the end, and wrapping a sheet around your legs with a couple feet hanging off the end and try to go swimming. That is what it has to be like for these fish with all this extra finage that they cannot control. I think the bettas with short ee is pretty. as long as they can control the whole fin. When we breed we need to keep in mind the life of the fish, and the integrity of the species. We can play around with color, for they are in the safety of our tanks. But the structure of the fish has to come at the priority of what is best for the fish. 

Something else that gets me are the "short bodied" bettas. How do we know what they feel, or what they are going through. Sad.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

I have a HMPK EE, his "ears" aren't too horribly long, and I like him this way. I feel bad for any EE of the longer varieties, like Delta, HM, or Veil, tails and "ears" are just too much in combination.

What's worse is the "Super" EE's, their pectorals are easily twice as big as the standard EE.

Hu (my EE) uses his "ears" a lot in his expression, especially when he flares, and while it's not ideal (then again, a lot of the things we humans breed aren't very helpful to the animals themselves), he's still very beautiful, and active.


----------



## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

I love the look of EE bettas with their opaque fins, (dont and wont own one) but its not practical for them at all and I feel horrible that breeders are trying to breed for bigger and bigger fins. I would never do that to my fish!

I have seen them swim "perfectly fine" but I know it has got to take a ton of their energy away to be able to do that. I can't imagine why breeders would purposely breed for that! It shouldn't be allowed. The IBC doesn't have a class for them, luckily, because it makes them dis proportioned. I hope they never allow it. I hope they are just a short fad and people realize its cruel and stop buying them, honestly.


Sorry for being so scatterbrained with this post. My brain apparently doesn't like me right now and won't let me process how I normally would lol


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

As much as I wish that were true, I can think of a few other species of animals where detrimental cosmetics aren't a fad. Like pugs and munchkin cats... both bred for looks, both alterations more detrimental to the animals' health than anything.


----------



## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> As much as I wish that were true, I can think of a few other species of animals where detrimental cosmetics aren't a fad. Like pugs and munchkin cats... both bred for looks, both alterations more detrimental to the animals' health than anything.


 
thats true. I didnt think about that when I posted.

Atleast the IBC doesnt allow them yet. I'm sure eventually they'll show up in variations then have their own class though sadly


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Like I said, I LOVE Hu, and his "ears" but his are short enough that he doesn't seem to have much (if any) trouble with his fins. The plakat is the only variety I'll keep, it's a compromise for the both of us. Especially since he has places to rest close to the surface if they wear him out.


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Yes sadly enough the things people breed intentionally is not good for the well being of the animals. It seems, so far at least, that the IBC tends to frown upon things that are not beneficial to the fish. Lets hope they keep this trend.I don't mind the small fin ee just the large ones. Before I ever saw or heard of ee, I had a line of blue bettas that had blue in their pectorals that I intentionally breed for. Never thought someone was breeding for such large pectoral fins.

Yes, its all sorts of animals that we "humans" do this to. They are even changing the dna of things like corn to include proteins. Are you kidding me? corn is not intended to have protein. The Dr. Frankensteins of "human" race.lol (so not funny)


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

My EEs never have a problem with swimming.. in fact, one especially, never quits. Has no trouble keeping up with a "normal" female in any way, lives alone in a 10g and he swims every inch of it. Fish learn to adapt to what they are given.. like everyone/thing else, they learn to use what they have with little to no trouble as they have been "dealing" with it since birth. Is it normal? No, one of many man made creations. But a strong, healthy betta with big pectorals will get around just fine. 

As well as VTs.. they do "drag" a bit more, but if cared for properly they build up their muscles and it's not always a hinder.. also depends on the tank set up - current from a filter will cause a bit more difficulty for them.

This is just my personal opinion/experience.. I respect everyone's opinions. But me personally, I love my EEs and after the spawns I have going now moves to the grow outs, my next ones are going to be EEs. I'm not going for extreme, but EE nonetheless as the ones I have aren't hampered in any way to cause me concern for the well being of the fish I love.


----------



## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Myates said:


> My EEs never have a problem with swimming.. in fact, one especially, never quits. Has no trouble keeping up with a "normal" female in any way, lives alone in a 10g and he swims every inch of it. Fish learn to adapt to what they are given.. like everyone/thing else, they learn to use what they have with little to no trouble as they have been "dealing" with it since birth. Is it normal? No, one of many man made creations. But a strong, healthy betta with big pectorals will get around just fine.
> 
> As well as VTs.. they do "drag" a bit more, but if cared for properly they build up their muscles and it's not always a hinder.. also depends on the tank set up - current from a filter will cause a bit more difficulty for them.
> 
> This is just my personal opinion/experience.. I respect everyone's opinions. But me personally, I love my EEs and after the spawns I have going now moves to the grow outs, my next ones are going to be EEs. I'm not going for extreme, but EE nonetheless as the ones I have aren't hampered in any way to cause me concern for the well being of the fish I love.




I see your point. And agree with you now that I think about it this way about them adapting to what they are given. But, honestly, it still isn't something I would ever purposely breed for. I like the look just like a lot of people do, I just don't like the idea. I want to breed my fish to have the best quality of life possible, and I honestly believe big pectorals lessens that in a way regaurdless on weather or not they adapt to it


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I can see why you are saying what you are saying.. I just can't look at my fish.. I'll use Kabuki (in the pic above) as an example.. I can't look at him, see him swimming non stop all over his heated/planted 10g with no problems, not having to stop for breaks, easily turns around.. and see that his quality of life is lessened in any way due to having bigger pectoral fins. Fish who are brand new from the store/breeder who were kept in small containers will have issues swimming for a while sometimes - both EEs and non EEs. It takes time to build up their strength.. but if healthy they will be active regardless. 

These fish were created for show, all these long finned varieties. They weren't created to be placed in 50 gallon tanks yadda yadda yadda.. they were created to be kept in small aquariums for display/show purposes. These fish aren't disabled, they are just what they are.. beautiful fish that have adapted to swim with what was given to them. They (especially EEs) are visually stunning and beautiful to watch move around and dance.. that is why they are here and are popular. They are beautiful, they were created for our enjoyment. It's human nature to make things "bigger and better", so this doesn't surprise me. But also keep in mind, responsible breeders don't take things to the extreme - a overly heavy/big finned betta don't usually get bred, if they do it's to a tighter finned female to keep the fins in check. These EEs are new and are going to be played with for a while still to come.. but they aren't living a debilitated life.

Kabuki's quality of life is pretty darn good with all he gets, and he shows no weaknesses. Your opinion it lessens their quality of life, my opinion it doesn't make a difference as they don't know anything different other than what they have and they make good use to what was given to them at birth.


----------



## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

I completely understand your thinking. But for me it's just not something I would want to do.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Well, if you would have read my post carefully, you would have known that my ee is a girl. I wouldn't have pointed that out, but being a girl, she has less finnage to drag around anyways. She is a perfectly healthy and active fish. IMO you are making generalizations about elephant ears.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Some people are going to prefer the EE's, and some won't. And of those that DO, some will like the supers, and some won't. I personally don't like some of the other tail types out there, but that doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them.

Either way, what is popular in the pet trade, and what is with breeders are often nowhere near the same thing. (I've yet to see the AKC show that sanctions Schnoodles and Chorkies) As long as John and Jane Doe walk in off the street and think the "fishy" with the big "ears" is cute, EE's are going to be popular. When the next fad that most breeders hate comes along, it's going to be the same thing. The mass appeal is in the finnage, and like it's been mentioned, people want something unique to put on display.

So, standing here, beating the dead horse probably isn't going to help. Once this fad is done, it's probably going to be something else with bigger fins, or a smaller body, or a mutilated face, or even dying their skin, who knows? Our job as the informed is to do something about it. Start going for the breeders, or the petstores that stock them.

But even after all of this, it doesn't make me wrong for liking what I like, nor does it make you wrong for not liking it, and as long as it's well within reason, and isn't grotesquely hurting the fish (like super heavy finnage) I'm going to enjoy having Hu's "ears" in my life.


----------



## polukoff (Nov 23, 2011)

Never seen any EE with problems swimming, mine are quite happy.


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should! Just because a particular fish can adapted to what he was given, does not make it okay knowing he would have had an easier life had he been given something different. If something happens by accident, then yes, I can take comfort in knowing that the fish has adapted to what he has and is being well taken care of. To intentionally breed for "bigger" is not always "better".Years ago, I was breeding a line that had color in the pectorals. They were pretty, but did nothing to the form of the fish. If someone wants to breed ee, why to such extreme? Where does it end? will they keep trying make them bigger and bigger till they are dragging the bottom of the tank? What is ok and what is not? where do you draw the line? Or do you? Just because we think its "pretty"? Just because we want to put something on display? This makes it all okay? I completely and totally disagree! 

I was born, unintentionally, with a crooked spine. People who do not know me personally look at me going about my business and never know the pain I am in on a daily basis. Sure, I "LOOK" normal. I "look" like I get along fine, because I have learned to adapt. Because I have no other choice! That is okay, because that is life. It happens. To intentionally inflect a hindrance, an impediment, an obstacle, a handicap, onto another living thing is not acceptable to me. There is no reason to keep making the ee bigger and bigger. NONE! The short ones can be pretty, and as responsible people, we should be accountable for what we do. We should not be so selfish as to think about what we WANT over what is BETTER for something that is living with OUR CHOICES. They are at our mercy. If there is the slightest chance that it is making life harder, if there is the slightest chance theat they must learn to accept what they have been given and adjust, then I have no right to inflict that onto them. My opinion. I will not intentionally breed something into any animal that isn't going to make their life easy-peasy!


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

With all due respect, you are stating an opinion. We don't even have proof that it is a hindrance to them. Honestly. I see no need for this thread, it is neither providing valuable information or asking a question. Do you personally have experience owning elephant ears?


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

I personally do not find EEs very attractive. But I do appreciate how in just about all EEs their pectoral fins are also vividly colored....and this I definitely find quite attractive as in all other varieties of bettas it is rather rare to have the pectoral fins w/ much color on them at all.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

One of my Hm males was born with enormous fins. Gigantic as big as Ive ever seen on a betta... So large i wont likely breed him. Not because its hard on him, he swims just fine thank you, but for show it could be too large. Why assume its so awful for these guys to have larger than normal fins. It may take slightly more energy to get around maybe 10% harder but ime betta need exercise too. It is NOT a Handicap. Please dont compare, Ive had to cull fish with crooked spines or deformities and I hate that part of breeding. The EE fish Ive seen, currently dont have one myself seem to move just fine. They are in a tiny aquarium not the ocean. More important is the care of the fish, water quality, regular tank cleaning with a healthy diet. Why paint everyone with unusually large fins on the fish as somehow being cruel. Ive seen animal cruelty up close and this isnt it thanks.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should!


BEFORE:








AFTER:

















BEFORE:








AFTER:









BEFORE:








AFTER:








Bred specifically for their looks, and when you check Wikipedia, they have quite the laundry list of heal issues.

BEFORE:








AFTER:









The point of all of those images (despite that they're not bettas), is to reiterate my point: People will breed things to suit their fancies, detrimental to the animal or not.

Your average Joe doesn't give a rip about fish pain, or fish feelings, otherwise they wouldn't have obnoxiously small tanks, and we wouldn't be constantly running into the "just a fish" argument.

I've mentioned the munchkin cat, bred SOLELY for it's appearance. This cat can not act like a normal cat, and are more prone to back injuries.

The pug is a dog who we didn't think looked "good enough" so we bred out it's snout, and bred in wrinkles, and a slew of health issues due to the two. 

The bettas at the bottom of the list: The before, wild-type splendens, After, VT EE.

The argument here is that if it WEREN'T for people breeding things to their preferences, we wouldn't have the animals we now have. Would you boycott a pug because it's torture for a dog NOT to have to snout to put it's palet into, and this causes them to choke on their own saliva? Or tell the owners that they're horrible people for encouraging breeders to continue the breed?
Or Himalayan, Sphinx, Bobtail, or Munchkin cats?
Or English Lop rabbits? (they have big ears too)

I'd also like to know how the people who like or breed EE's are any more "cruel" than breeders of short bodied fish, or double tails with shortened spines?

or ANY animal for that matter?

And I agree with Logisticsguy, EE fanciers aren't bad people. Just like VT Fanciers aren't bad, or DT, or Delta, or HM, or CT, or Spade, or Plakat, or any combination thereof.

P.s. that post took a long time to write and google images.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Like with a lot of animals that have become domestic over time.. they change. On their own. 

Look at that fox research of many years - bred foxes to become domesticated.. guess what? They started changing their physical features on there own, no help from people.

Just like how we got the dogs we have today.. yes, we refined things, but over time they changed from looking wolfish to looking like the average canine we see walking the alley. 

And the bettas changed their looks on their own in time as well - how else could we of gotten long fins from short fins? Hey.. it happened naturally, we just improved upon it to make it more visually appealing. 

So in reality.. we just tweaked what naturally happened.. yet mother nature isn't the cruel one for being the first one to create it


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Myates said:


> Like with a lot of animals that have become domestic over time.. they change. On their own.
> 
> Look at that fox research of many years - bred foxes to become domesticated.. guess what? They started changing their physical features on there own, no help from people.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

To each his own. I don't see any problem with EEs. Several people posted that theirs had no problem swimming and going about their everyday life. I don't much care for Des, either but I didn't care for plakats either until I got one. Now I have 3. Lol


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Back when my kids were little we gave them water wings to help them swim better. Also recall using something called flippers when I went scuba diving. Its just an extension or bigger fin to help me swim better. I've seen this discussion regarding fin size before here and no conclusive evidence (physics) showing it to be much harder to swim at all with larger fins. Is it possible EE actually have it easier swimming with those fins? The difference would not be all that much either way imo.


----------



## Syriiven (Aug 15, 2012)

Both sides of the argument have good points;

- the bettas we love so much today and can find in most lfs' would never be found int he wild
- the different patterns and types are mutations discovered through a lot of hard work from breeders
- its very similar to how we ended up with so many breeds of domesticated animals
- in NATURAL conditions in the wild, no, EE's and other betta with larger fins wouldn't stand a chance. Wild bettas naturally have shorter fins, and are darker, less flashier. For a reason - only the strong survive int eh wild, and our bettas sitting in aquariums wouldn't be able to hande that. 
- but our bettas arent meant for the wild, or fighting, and thus fulfill their purpose - appearing as beautiful aquarium fish

Still, some facts to be taken into account - in the wild, animals of any sort with a deformity are usually picked off early on. Cripes, the mothers will cull the young in some species so they don't have to provide for a babe that may not survive to adulthood. 

In my opinion, yes, I think excessive finnage can become a danger factor. They droop and get stuck to things, so we provide as few hooks and burrs for their home as we can. Large fins act like sails, so currents can easilly push the fish around. So we reduce filter flow and are gentle with water changes. 

But onwards to ability to control their swimming - that depends on how strongly and properly built the betta is under the 'plummage'. If anyone's looked at a non-EE betta their pectorals are small spines with very, VERY thin fin spread between each. The fluttering EE trait is the exact same as the rosetail trait - if properly cared for, yes, you have a happy, healthy betta. But if that x-factor isn't carefully watched and if too much of it isn't culled...your poor fish is going to have troubles. Which you can account for and fix to the best of your abilities, but not EVERY animal with a handicap lives as long as they would if they didn't have that handicap. 

There are happy miracle stories all over the world, dogs with two legs, cats with no eyes, bettas born blind......but usually the case is that an animal does it's happiest and best, but eventually they do run out of strength. Eventually, they die a happy death, but in all possibility before they would have if they had all four limbs, etc.

Now before I get flamed...I'm not really taking a side. But to boycott one betta mutation in favor of another is simply being a hypocrite. 

People need to remember that these aren't wild-born fish, they're practically man-made, which means they're going to be abused to suit the fancy of man from fad to fad. That's the way of humans. Deal with it, because you own several results of that very fact. Have we been helpful? Many have different opinions on that. Should we have? I'm not sure if it's a relevent question at this point seeing as instead of out-fishing the betta for pets, man's polluting and building over their natural habitat while we enjoy fancy fish over here. 

My point is...there's no absolute right or wrong. Like them or hate them, but do so with facts and logic. Research it. Does an EE betta have enough structure to their fin for the extra fluttery bits not to hamper it? What exactly is the lifespan of an x-factor betta vs your typical PK? Where exactly did this all originate? Lots of questions should be looked up before getting into heated debates over bias. 

Anyways...I think I've ranted enough...


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Well put, Syriiven!


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Good post Syriiven. Everyone has a valid opinion here. This is a good discussion and a fine forum topic.


----------



## BeautifulBetta123 (Aug 27, 2012)

I personally love ee but think this just looks ridiculous and can't be good for the fish.


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I just stumbled upon this thread- my male PKEE (avatar) is a gorgeous fish! His "ears" flutter. I think it actually helps him- is such a subtle motion. I have 2 HMEE girls. In the early days, the girls "ears" got a but torn up they zip around with the non-EEs (the others' tails & fins got a nip mark or 2 as well). Of course, the girls have smaller fins; again, they get extra thrust from those pecs. I would think it would be like a human with diving fins. When I saw pictures of EEs, I thought the fish looked silly, too. Then I saw one- the fluttering motion was so lovely. As for breeders over-emphasizing certain features, well, that horse left the barn long ago. Without the first person to breed 2 wild bettas for color, we wouldn't have our pets. Just as the wolf and bobcat would make very bad choices as pets! None of our little jewels would survive in the wild. These are now "designer fish" and some breeders will ALWAYS have a "why not?" attitude OR they will not cull the extreme mutation if the fry seems healthy. The IBC and the buying public will ultimately dictate the EEs fate.


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Mattsbetta, The reason for this post is to get people to think abou the fish they are producing. We have a responsibility for what we breed and the well being of these LIVING creatures.

Logisticsguy, the physics is there. When a fish does not have control of the finnage, it is a flap that causes extra resistance and makes it harder to swim. This is not an opinion, it is a scientific fact. The flippers you are given to swim with are stiff. You place them on your hands or feet, and they are stiff and help you push water, the same way fins work for fish. You would not place socks on you hands or feet, and let them dangle off the ends of your feet or hands and try to swim because it would be a hindrance and make it harder for you to swim. The small ee are not so bad because the fish have control of the fins. The larger ones they do not.

Syriiven awsome post!


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> Mattsbetta, The reason for this post is to get people to think abou the fish they are producing. We have a responsibility for what we breed and the well being of these LIVING creatures.
> 
> Logisticsguy, the physics is there. When a fish does not have control of the finnage, it is a flap that causes extra resistance and makes it harder to swim. This is not an opinion, it is a scientific fact. The flippers you are given to swim with are stiff. You place them on your hands or feet, and they are stiff and help you push water, the same way fins work for fish. You would not place socks on you hands or feet, and let them dangle off the ends of your feet or hands and try to swim because it would be a hindrance and make it harder for you to swim. The small ee are not so bad because the fish have control of the fins. The larger ones they do not.


LL, Have you seen an EE swim? They don't "flap" and the fins aren't stiff. They vertically ripple a bit & the fish goes forward. It isn't like a bird flapping it's wings against the air. They physics of movement under water are different than flying in the air. I would think larger fins would be an asset. Butch swims effortlessly.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Well you may be right. I dont know the scientific fact as it has yet to be presented here. Just from experience of owning both very small and very large finned fish, the difference in life quality would be insignificant jmho. Ive seen big finned fish that swim well every day without any visible issues getting around. I maintain that diet, sanitation and over all care given by the pet owner is more important. Every day I see males with extremely large fins zipping around tanks like a lunatics who have ability to really swim fast in a bigger tank but could use more daily exercise than the 10 minutes of flaring every day. The female domestic betta can have a tendency to get obese if your not careful about diet. I respect your point of view but there are far bigger problems in the betta world than this. Pet store sales myths about how little care bettas need, no heater, no filter, hardly ever change the water ect. bother me more personally. Your points are valid and like I like most breeders strive for form and colors more than fin size.


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> Of course, the girls have smaller fins; again, they get extra thrust from those pecs.


You can't be serious. :roll: It's OBVIOUS to anyone (whether you are an EE fan or not) that gigantic fin mutations are a hinderance in nature. Why do you think we don't see EEs running around in the wild rice patties or long finned goldfish swimming around in china??....because they all got caught by the predators long before they could've survived to adulthood!



Xaltd1 said:


> They don't "flap" and the fins aren't stiff.


EXACTLY...you said it yourself. Since those big mutated fins aren't stiff -- then how the heck do they function to a swimming advantage? If they're floppy then they're a mere hinderance! And a big waving hand to predators to say "hi here is your next meal!"


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Option said:


> You can't be serious. :roll: It's OBVIOUS to anyone (whether you are an EE fan or not) that gigantic fin mutations are a hinderance in nature. Why do you think we don't see EEs running around in the wild rice patties or long finned goldfish swimming around in china??....because they all got caught by the predators long before they could've survived to adulthood!
> 
> 
> 
> EXACTLY...you said it yourself. Since those big mutated fins aren't stiff -- then how the heck do they function to a swimming advantage? If they're floppy then they're a mere hinderance! And a big waving hand to predators to say "hi here is your next meal!"


Do you have any EEs? Have you seen them swim? Or swim w/ with other bettas?
I speak from observations of my 3 EEs- 1 male, 2 females in a sorority. Look at the pectoral fins of your bettas. They undulate, rather than flap. Just imagine them bigger. My sorority EEs should be dead by now if they were at a significant handicap of the other 7 females. They're just as speedy!


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

This whole thread was created for the sole purpose of putting down anyone who likes EE's. It's ridiculous. If I posted a thread complaining about another variety, everyone would be on me like a pack of dogs to defend whatever it is.

It's lame that someone feels the need to degrade the breed, and the people who enjoy them...


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Oh, and NONE of our fancy, colorful fish would last 10 seconds in nature. And who knows if evolution would have created larger pecs for bettas, or even permitted bettas to continue? Humans have intervened, for "betta" or worse...


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> This whole thread was created for the sole purpose of putting down anyone who likes EE's. It's ridiculous. If I posted a thread complaining about another variety, everyone would be on me like a pack of dogs to defend whatever it is.
> 
> It's lame that someone feels the need to degrade the breed, and the people who enjoy them...


Amen! PLEASE don't "dis" a fish unless you've seen one. I NEVER would have purchased a $35+ EE unless I saw one swim in person. Still pics do no justice to the EE. I have never seen anything so glorious and lush!!!


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> Do you have any EEs? Have you seen them swim? Or swim w/ with other bettas?
> I speak from observations of my 3 EEs- 1 male, 2 females in a sorority. Look at the pectoral fins of your bettas.


Ummm....yes. That betta in my avatar happened to be a product of EE parents (he just happened not to have inherited the mutation). 




Xaltd1 said:


> They undulate, rather than flap. Just imagine them bigger. My sorority EEs should be dead by now if they were at a significant handicap of the other 7 females. They're just as speedy!


The fact that they undulate (as opposed to a stiff flap) makes drag resistance in the water. Thus, the bigger the fins are the more drag it causes...this isn't something I'm making up, it's plain & simple physics. As I alluded to earlier, for the same reason this is why fancy-finned goldfish can't swim as well. To your naked eye it may seem your EE is "just as speedy" as the rest. But they're really not....and that margin of drag in their swimming compromises their survival (a whole other topic that is outside the scope of this thread). Not to mention the EE pectoral fins signal way too much attention to predators.

That said, my intent is not to put down EE owners. I've owned EEs myself as I said above. But for an EE fanatic to make all these blatantly false claims about EEs uncompromised swimming.....is simply absurd.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

> This whole thread was created for the sole purpose of putting down anyone who likes EE's. It's ridiculous. If I posted a thread complaining about another variety, everyone would be on me like a pack of dogs to defend whatever it is.
> 
> It's lame that someone feels the need to degrade the breed, and the people who enjoy them...



Thank you! Frankly, this thread is pointless. We have some who are spreading unfounded and unproven myths about how they can't swim, some who are viciously defending ee... I'm really quite sick of it. There is no valuable information on this thread, just a few people voicing their opinions and attacking anyone who disagrees. And no modern betta splendens, ee or not, would ever last a day in the wild. And yes, if ee was at a large disadvantage they would have been destroyed in a sorority.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

They can swim but common physics say they cant swim easily. Is it right to breed fish that find it hard to swim just so we can look at them? Personally I dont think so, plus in my opinion I hate the look


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Skyewillow said:


> This whole thread was created for the sole purpose of putting down anyone who likes EE's. It's ridiculous. If I posted a thread complaining about another variety, everyone would be on me like a pack of dogs to defend whatever it is.
> 
> It's lame that someone feels the need to degrade the breed, and the people who enjoy them...


I am the one who started this thread, and you couldn't be more wrong. Go back and read my posts again. I never said there shouldn't be ee. I said the excessive, large ee should not be breed. 

Since no one on here is a mind reader, I will tell you exactly why I started this thread. It is a shame that people are breeding things into these fish that are not beneficial to them. These are living creatures. This thread is to get people to think about what they are breeding into their fish. Not just ee, but other things as well.

If you believe this thread is a waste of time, you do not have to be here. You are free to pass it up and move to something else.

If all of those who believe that the large ee is not a hindrance to the fish, why don't you go patent floppy style fins for people to go scuba diving with? It is a product that cannot be found on the market, and you should make you a killing if the floppy material helps you swim better and faster.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

This is all a freaking moot point..

When a fish swims forward their pectorals are held to their bodies - the water being pushed around them while swimming will keep the fins plastered to their sides - and size of the fins do not matter at this point. During the actual forward motion the pectorals are not in use.

So the large pectoral fins have NOTHING to do with the act of swimming. Period.

When a fish stops the pectorals will start to move to help keep the fish in place. Fish with small pectorals will move them a lot quicker than fish with larger pectorals. But they both move their pecs quickly and gently depending upon current, etc. There is no difference in how they move their fins at a standstill.

There is no way to judge hindrance on these fish, as when you watch them you will see that both EEs and non EEs swim the same, move the same, turn the same... it's all equal to one another. We can't say "well, because the physics as we understand it says that there should be drag" and expect it to be solid fact. That is silly.. as I mentioned earlier, the act of swimming forward the pectorals are not in use.. so the "physics of drag" don't come into play the way it's being presented here.

If you don't like them.. then fine, don't buy, don't breed. But since there is no proof of a lesser quality of life, and there is no way there ever could be a true answer to that.. then just leave the breeders be. These are fins. FINS. These said fins have yet to physically handicap the fish in any way. Breeders are tweaking something that had popped up during the course of breeding. Since it's new, give it time to be balanced out some.. since the gene is so very recessive, it's hard to know what you are going to get right now breeding them. 

Oh, and just because the parents are an EE, but the fish you have don't have the big pectorals, doesn't qualify as owning an actual EE 

Scuba diving as HUMANS is NO WHERE near the same as a FISH that is adapted to swimming in water, and adapted to what they are born with. THEY ARE FISH, we are humans.. there is NO contest to it. We will be having a hard time "flapping" regardless what we use because we ARE NOT fish.

Here.. side by side.. I have yet to see why this one has a lesser quality of life than the one next to it? 

To each their own opinion on whether they like something or not.. I can respect that. But I'm not going to tell people it's wrong to do something when there is no evidence or fact to back up my claim.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

> When a fish swims forward their pectorals are held to their bodies - the water being pushed around them while swimming will keep the fins plastered to their sides - and size of the fins do not matter at this point. During the actual forward motion the pectorals are not in use.
> 
> So the large pectoral fins have NOTHING to do with the act of swimming. Period.
> 
> ...



Well, I think Myrates proves our point pretty well right here. Watch the video. That ee seems to swim just like a normal fish! Wow! 


And louisvillelady, your intentions don't really matter, this thread was has become /was created for the sole purpose of attacking ee and the people who like and breed them. And, um... Fish are completely different animals then humans, who were not really meant to swim in the first place. And the "fins" that humans wear go on our feet when fishes pectoral fins are on the equivalent of their chest. Also, fishes pectoral fins move in a completely different motion then humans with fins do. Fishes pectorals undulate, while humans flap. And thus, that argument is invalid.


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

Myates said:


> We can't say "well, because the physics as we understand it says that there should be drag" and expect it to be solid fact. That is silly.. as I mentioned earlier, the act of swimming forward the pectorals are not in use.. so the "physics of drag" don't come into play the way it's being presented here.
> 
> If you don't like them.. then fine, don't buy, don't breed. But since there is no proof of a lesser quality of life, and there is no way there ever could be a true answer to that.. then just leave the breeders be. These are fins. FINS. These said fins have yet to physically handicap the fish in any way. Breeders are tweaking something that had popped up during the course of breeding. Since it's new, give it time to be balanced out some.. since the gene is so very recessive, it's hard to know what you are going to get right now breeding them.
> 
> Oh, and just because the parents are an EE, but the fish you have don't have the big pectorals, doesn't qualify as owning an actual EE


Hold one just one second, since when to the laws of physics SUDDENLY not apply to objects or animals in water??? EEs are nice and all but they don't defy the laws of physics. LOL...they are still mortals! Good grief.

Yes, I do own EEs.....did you think I mean that I didn't own the parents???? Do everything need to be spelled out letter by letter on this thread. :roll:

And I'll say it again, *I am not one to say that EE shouldn't be bred*. I am only saying that those EE obsessives out there should not think that EE fins are in no way compromising its swimming...cause they do (deal with it) no matter whether you can appreciate that with your eyes or not.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Not saying the laws of physics don't apply generally. But we can't say that _x_ is _x_ because we think so. There is no way to absolutely say whether or not that the quality of life is lessened in any way in this particular case because what we think it may be. Comparing the way a certian fish swims to how humans swim is not a way to prove physics, nor a way to prove how hampered certain fins are. When pushing off to swim, wouldn't having more of a spread make it easier to push? Or would having something really thin make it easier to push off with? Otherwise, how are the fins hampering? How is physics proving that it's hampering? If having slimmer fins and less overall fin makes it harder to push off with is bad.. then why is it that other animals try to mimic it? Webbing on a duck's feet.. heck, webbing on a labrador retriever's feet? 

So physics in this specific topic of having larger pectorals shows that it's not really a hamper - they use the added coverage to help push off quicker/easier, and in the action of moving forward they don't use the fins at all. 

And don't tell us to deal with it, because there is no fact whether or not they are being compromised in any way. Visually you can see that they are not hampered by it, so all one can argue is the physics of it, but even then it's iffy at best. 
You can not use the physics of humans in water and compare it to an animal who solely lives in water. So yes, the laws of physics can differ depending upon situations. 

Human with a flipper does not use the same physics as a fish with larger pectoral fins.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Honestly, My EE gets around EASIER than my other males, a delta, a veil, and 2 crowns.

So he has a "lower quality of life" because he CAN and DOES have it easier than my males with long finnage everywhere else? I'm finding that a little hard to believe.

The only "difficulty" I can read on the fish in the video is from that extra full tail. He swims the same exact way my VT does.

Meanwhile, my EE will zoom across his tank, frequently, using those big old pecs.


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Am I the only one that has 2 female EEs (that I paid $$$ for as EEs) living alongside 7 other "normal" females with absolutely no hindrance or problem due to abnormality/physics/whatever? I have 9 little fish noses coming out of the water at feeding time! They all jump, beg, and otherwise zoom around despite the difference in fins: 2 PKEEs, 2 CTs, 5 HMs! I bought them b/c they are so beautiful!! Just sayin'- one success story here.


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTChWfPYHyw

Swimming is swimming no matter what type of animal or human you are. You just swim in a different manner. Swimming is pushing yourself through the water. Watch the video. When the pectoral fin goes forward, the ends of the fins fold backward, causing a drag. When the pectoral fins go backward toward the body, the ends of the fins want to go forward, because of the drag. The physics is there. plain as day right in front of us. Can these fish swim, yes. Can they swim comparatively as well as others, maybe. Do they need to work harder to be able to do these things, yes! 

Mattsbettas, "And louisvillelady, your intentions don't really matter, this thread was has become /was created for the sole purpose of attacking ee and the people who like and breed them." Do you make it a habit to go around telling people why they did something? You do not know me. What makes you think you know why this thread was created? I told you why it was created. To bring it to peoples attention that we should be more conscientious about what we breed into these fish. Some people will be extremely cautious. Some people will not care one hill of beans what it does to the fish as long as the fish are what they want. Others may not have thought about it, and this thread will get them to stop and think about it. THAT is why this thread was created. And no one is attacking ee or the breeders of ee. I said the excessive ee should not be breed. If you feel differently, fine, but I have the right to say that I don't think they should be breed and to explain why. Everyone else has the right to make up their minds as well.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> If all of those who believe that the large ee is not a hindrance to the fish, why don't you go patent floppy style fins for people to go scuba diving with? It is a product that cannot be found on the market, and you should make you a killing if the floppy material helps you swim better and faster.


The flippers I use for scuba diving are very floppy. Not very stiff as they are made with a rubber compound not wooden like at all. Already on the market in various degrees of floppiness.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

This thread has become a joke. I'm done wasting my time here. I know what I know about MY fish, and if you don't take the time to know them for what they are before you start spouting off, then that's your own problem.

I LOVE my EE, I plan on getting more, and eventually breeding them. Like it or lump it, you don't know me well enough to have an opinion that matters to me.

If you really want to attack a breed, go after the double tails with their mutilated backs that have to be outcrossed to have healthy spawns.


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> This thread has become a joke. I'm done wasting my time here. I know what I know about MY fish, and if you don't take the time to know them for what they are before you start spouting off, then that's your own problem.
> 
> I LOVE my EE, I plan on getting more, and eventually breeding them. Like it or lump it, you don't know me well enough to have an opinion that matters to me.
> 
> If you really want to attack a breed, go after the double tails with their mutilated backs that have to be outcrossed to have healthy spawns.


X2 for me. My EEs are happy fish. Period.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> X2 for me. My EEs are happy fish. Period.


THIS is all that really matters.


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

Skyewillow said:


> This thread has become a joke. I'm done wasting my time here.


Well in all honestly, no one here is asking for your post or contribution. Allow those who want to debate the topic to have at it. If you can't take the heat, no one is asking for you to be in the kitchen.




Skyewillow said:


> If you really want to attack a breed, go after the double tails with their mutilated backs that have to be outcrossed to have healthy spawns.


I wouldn't say that too loudly....there are equally as many double-tail fanatics in here as there are EE zealots. :lol:


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Option said:


> I wouldn't say that too loudly....there are equally as many double-tail fanatics in here as there are EE zealots. :lol:


exactly my point.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I see no zealots here just some people waiting for evidence of the "scientific fact" that EEs are indeed handicapped.


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

First off let me say this...lionfish....are they cruel/ Because nature made them and their pectorals make an EE's a total JOKE YET guess what, these guys are WILD fish SURVIVING in the wild and not bred by man. So really the argument about EE's and breeding them being cruel is null because nature has created the extream of that and it's still doing just fine in nature. In fact it's a deadly animal even.

Also as a mermaid (yes this exists I train all summer long for this sort of thing) I know the TRUE mechanism's of tails and pectorals like this. You say the way the pectorals flow creates drag, NO not true. My store bought mermaid tail I own own this same way when I swim in it and it doesn't create drag it creates push force and actually makes me go faster than most divers with their flippers can move. In fact a diver with flippers with never move as fast as someone with a monofin or mertail. And the larger the mertail the faster you can go. Yes it takes building up the muscles to control it but when an animal is born that way and not given a tail by the manufacturing of a fake one as I have then the whole muscle issue isn't even there because they lived with them their whole lives unlike I who had to learn how to control my new limb want proof watch this it's the same thing you see with these fins. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=C2XEFgleYWc&feature=fvwp

So in all reality no pun intended but the EE argument holds no water.


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> First off let me say this...lionfish....are they cruel/ Because nature made them and their pectorals make an EE's a total JOKE YET guess what, these guys are WILD fish SURVIVING in the wild and not bred by man.


OMG I can't believe we're going here. Do I even need to....LIONFISH HAVE poison spines!!!! Thus they can have AS BIG OF PECTORAL FINS as they want and still survivie! How can anyone even compare bettas to lionfish??????? You are comparing apples to oranges here, do you not realize?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I'm now laughing so hard I may end up with a seizure)

Good jesus....I mean sharks have big pectorals too (and they don't even undulate) and wait...they suriviv in the wild too! :roll:


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Have you not seen lionfish swim though? I am not speaking of the fact they have poison spines, they are predatory fish, fast ,and accurate and yet their pectoral fins are massive and they have no trouble swimming. Just watch one hunt will you, they move with lightning speed and then a sudden stillness. They are beautiful animals and it takes more than defense from predators to survive. As a carnivorous animal it takes hunting skill and strength as well.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

> Swimming is swimming no matter what type of animal or human you are. You just swim in a different manner. Swimming is pushing yourself through the water. Watch the video. When the pectoral fin goes forward, the ends of the fins fold backward, causing a drag. When the pectoral fins go backward toward the body, the ends of the fins want to go forward, because of the drag. The physics is there. plain as day right in front of us. Can these fish swim, yes. Can they swim comparatively as well as others, maybe. Do they need to work harder to be able to do these things, yes!
> 
> Mattsbettas, "And louisvillelady, your intentions don't really matter, this thread was has become /was created for the sole purpose of attacking ee and the people who like and breed them." Do you make it a habit to go around telling people why they did something? You do not know me. What makes you think you know why this thread was created? I told you why it was created. To bring it to peoples attention that we should be more conscientious about what we breed into these fish. Some people will be extremely cautious. Some people will not care one hill of beans what it does to the fish as long as the fish are what they want. Others may not have thought about it, and this thread will get them to stop and think about it. THAT is why this thread was created. And no one is attacking ee or the breeders of ee. I said the excessive ee should not be breed. If you feel differently, fine, but I have the right to say that I don't think they should be breed and to explain why. Everyone else has the right to make up their minds as well.



No! Swimming is not all the same! Would you expect a fish to get up and walk? It's the same thing. You can not compare a fish swimming to a human. I am bronze cross certified and swim hours a week and I have fish that I watch every day, and I can tell you that we swim in a way that is compleatly different then fish. And no I do not know you or know your intentions, but there is no denying that this has blown up into you and some others attacking ee and their advocates. And drag is everywhere. When you walk, when you swim. Drag happens everywhere. So, if you don't mind, please stop attacking people over your unproven opinions.


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> Have you not seen lionfish swim though? I am not speaking of the fact they have poison spines, they are predatory fish, fast ,and accurate and yet their pectoral fins are massive and they have no trouble swimming. Just watch one hunt will you, they move with lightning speed and then a sudden stillness. They are beautiful animals and it takes more than defense from predators to survive. As a carnivorous animal it takes hunting skill and strength as well.


Yes but LIONFISH became this way over millions (no trillions) of years of what we call EVOLUTION! EVOLUTION! NOT purposely bred mutants like the way EE bettas are! Let me say that again....LIONFISH EVOLVED this way and that is why they can have volkswagon-sized pectoral fins if they want to AND STILL SURVIVE in the wild. EE bettas are mutations that are purposely propagated for the our entertainment and thus their gallon-sized pectoral fins would not stand a chance in nature. Do you get it yet? Let me summarize:

EE bettas = mutants w/ big fins
Lionfish = naturally w/ big fins

Lastly, big fins do NOT equal survival in all fish. ONLY IF IT'S NATURAL do big fins have an advantage! Have you ever taken a course in biology? (and I mean that in the nicest way...I swear)


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Can we please discuss this without attacking each other? Thank you.


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I am not saying throw your EE's into the wild and they would survive (and evolution my friend is mutation as well, mutations that improve a species and are passed along...so...yeah. Evolution=mutations...just saying.) 

What I AM saying is you so calmly reread is THIS: Lionfish though they have massive fins have no troubles in their life, yes they evolved but this evolution started as a mutation and through this those first lionfish with the larger fins somehow did much better than those with smaller fins and breed, populated, and this became the norm weeding out all those who otherwise started with smaller fins. EE is likewise a mutation and through us human breeders are breeding this mutation into lines giving more of our PK EE fins because of the beauty and grace. Domestication in it's own right is a form of evolution driven by the hand of man in fact. Perhaps not as cruel as natures survival of the fittest but it's the same concept, using mutations to get a certain outcome. In the end Lionfish are not hampered by their large pectorals as serpents are not hampered by their lack of limbs and nor are EE's hampered from their larger pectorals. If they truly were then they would all be in poor health, have shorter lifespans, and show evidence of their misery. Of all the EE video's I have seen they are all active, healthy fish who show 0 sign of strain or stress from their enlarged fins. And Option I am not calling you out but I found it odd you didn't realize Evolution is in essence mutations which improve....it was odd to me. It's not like one morning some bird wakes up a different color than the others, it is a 'flaw' or mutation withing the genes passed on slowly from generation to generations. I believe in biology in fact there was a lesson on moths that showed this. For many generations the trees in a local area were pale in color and thus the paler colored moths survived while their offspring who had a mutation to make the pigments darker were eaten by birds. Introduce us humans and out industrial revolution the trees were covered in grime making them darker and thus the moths who had the mutation to make them darker were surviving while the original paler moths were eaten up by birds. Now the mutation though originally was detrimental to the individual was saving them. So yes I have taken biology and know mutations cause evolution to be plausible. Things don't just become without some gene somewhere changing something from what it once was and being enforced by breeding stronger into lines until it's the new norm.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Evoulution is mutation... And it's compleatly natural.


----------



## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> I believe in biology in fact there was a lesson on moths that showed this. For many generations the trees in a local area were pale in color and thus the paler colored moths survived while their offspring who had a mutation to make the pigments darker were eaten by birds. Introduce us humans and out industrial revolution the trees were covered in grime making them darker and thus the moths who had the mutation to make them darker were surviving while the original paler moths were eaten up by birds. Now the mutation though originally was detrimental to the individual was saving them.


I was still keeping tabs here, and saw this, I need to add to it:
Once people realized that they were causing the Peppered Moth to mutate into a darker color morph, they started to clean up the mess from factories. Within a few generations of things being close to normal again, the moths were back to the original pale color, and once again, the darker moths were picked off by birds.
(Just finished a biology course in December, thanks)
http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/index.php/component/content/article/127.html


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

It's ironic- as I'm watching our little drama unfold, Glow, a female HM, is chasing poor Mist, female EEPK, all over the 10 gal. Glow hasn't caught Mist yet. Glow is rapidly earning a "timeout" for her aggression. Of course, if I go over to the tank, all 9 fish line up, and look at me with little halos over their heads!


----------



## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

They're looking for food. Lol


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Xaltd1 said:


> It's ironic- as I'm watching our little drama unfold, Glow, a female HM, is chasing poor Mist, female EEPK, all over the 10 gal. Glow hasn't caught Mist yet. Glow is rapidly earning a "timeout" for her aggression. Of course, if I go over to the tank, all 9 fish line up, and look at me with little halos over their heads!


xD Seems Mist agrees with me and my bigger mertail theory then. The bigger it is the more control required but overall lets hit those top speeds girl and see them try to catch us.

The only trouble I have ever encountered while wearing a larger tail is turning from my belly to my back is a pain because I have so much tail to move. It catches on the water and requires more strength and control to keep from flopping back over. The good news is I have yet to see a betta swim on their back so I think they are going to be okay.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Lion fish and Bettas swim completely differently. Lionfish use their tails more than their pectorals, plus their pecs arent a huge blanket but more like spines sticking out of smaller pectorals. 

Heres a lion fish swimming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iKe5WZPZLs
Heres a betta swimming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1eRpQ1a4IE

See the difference in style?

People shouldn't get so offended by a friendly debate over types of fish. Its interesting to learn the pros and cons of the types

Heres some legit scientific info on swimming types. Bettas are drag based swimmers, the ideal shape is blunt triangle which normal Bettas are, a square or rectangle creates more intereferance drag which is a bad thing. Dumbos have square pectorals. 
http://129.173.33.56:5080/AFtoilons/sciences/modeswim.pdf


P.S LadyVictorian, that mermaid swimming looks so cool!


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> evolution my friend is mutation as well, mutations that improve a species and are passed along...so...yeah. Evolution=mutations...just saying


Ok, I can agree with you there. Strictly speaking, evolution is a product of a mutation....BUT the mutant has undergone selection (and proved it's worth in nature) and thus we call the new fin variation an 'evolution'. Not just a regular mutation anymore. So because lionfish pectoral fins have undergone the test of time (aka natural selection) then we can definitely conclude that their large pectoral fins are a survival advantage *amongst its own species*. Not all fish!!!



LadyVictorian said:


> In the end Lionfish are not hampered by their large pectorals as serpents are not hampered by their lack of limbs and nor are EE's hampered from their larger pectorals. If they truly were then they would all be in poor health, have shorter lifespans, and show evidence of their misery. Of all the EE video's I have seen they are all active, healthy fish who show 0 sign of strain or stress from their enlarged fins.


Again I have no idea why you bring lionfish or serpents into this....these two kind of animals have undergone selection! And thus making their features an asset to their survival. The EEs may have survived (at the hands of man) but this does not place them in the same category as the lionfish w/ big fins nor the serpent w/o legs. Not by a mile is it even close.

Lastly I can't help but to ask: Just because the EEs appear to be "active" or "show 0 signs of stress" to your naked eye means that they're non-hampered in their lives?


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Well then according to your argument halfmoons, doubletails, delta tails, super delta's veiltails, crowntails, crowntail plakats, and halfmoon plakats, rosetails, feather tails, and spade tails are ALL cruel and NO ONE should breed betta because ALL of those tail types are selectively bred and not proven to survive in the wild THUS we shouldn't breed betta's because every tail type and color is unnatural and wrong.

The only betta we should really have with this logic is fighters.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

As mentioned before, Bettas don't swim primarily with their unpaired fins so lengthening these will not hinder them as much as lengthening their pectorals would since they are their primary means of locomotion.


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I have seen far more halfmoons with larger tails have more issues swimming than EE's. I have even seen HM who won't go into open water because their tails are too heavy and weigh them down but all EE's I see are fine and active and healthy and have no issues being in open space and rest far less than some HM i have seen.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I agree that excessive finnage in any type is bad, I've seen hms with to much finnage as well that can hardly stay horizontal. This topic is talking about excessive EE with breeders selecting for bigger and bigger pectorals


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZqvx2QFEM

Not seeing this betta struggle with swimming. I see 0 struggle with his swimming at all. His ears are pretty big too adn he still zips around. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fJGBXuli90

This HM looks like he is having a harder time getting around vs the EE and his fins are not even too long they are what I consider idea for a HM.


----------



## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Mattsbettas, I encourage you to go back over my posts and find one time that I attack someone. And if you would READ what I said about swimming, you would realize how wrong that statement was also. The act of swimming is the same no matter what is "swimming". It is pushing yourself through the water. Displacing water in a manner that you propel through the water. The only difference is how each thing accomplishes this act.

Lionfish pectoral fins are structured completely different from the ee bettas. The bettas are a solid fin. Spines connected by webbing. In excessive ee, the spines do not go to the end of the fins and therefore the fish does not have control over the entire fin. Lionfish fins are made up of separated spines with webbing down one side completely connected from the tip of the spine all the way to the body of the fish. There is no resistance on the lionfish because the water can flow through the space between the spines. With the betta fish, the water cannot do this. Also the markings on the lionfish help camouflage the fish. Another reason for the separated spines. It helps the fish look like a plant and hide.


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Depends on the species of Lionfish when talking about the pectorals as there is more than one species.

http://fishtanx.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/12-11-11-lionfish.jpg
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/RedLionfish/redlionnps.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9LjlseyJTac/T8-5qK7kVRI/AAAAAAAABPQ/MIkXTqmd1QU/s1600/Lionfish.JPG
http://cdn1.arkive.org/media/58/583...tation.Large/Common-lionfish-side-profile.jpg
http://www.biology101.org/archive/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/lionfish.jpg

but yeah...you get the idea. Some of them don't have the 'space between the spikes' as webbing spreads between all or most of the spikes on many species of lionfish. The stereotypical one people know of however does look as you described but not so with all the other species.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

> Well then according to your argument halfmoons, doubletails, delta tails, super delta's veiltails, crowntails, crowntail plakats, and halfmoon plakats, rosetails, feather tails, and spade tails are ALL cruel and NO ONE should breed betta because ALL of those tail types are selectively bred and not proven to survive in the wild THUS we shouldn't breed betta's because every tail type and color is unnatural and wrong.



+1^ 

And swimming is not even a natural behavior for humans. Would you expect a batta to get up and walk? Your comparison is so rediculously inaccurate that it is invalid. As I said, I am bronze cross certified and swim for hours a week and I also watch my fish (including the ee) for a ton of time. It is fairly obvious that fish are meant to swim and humans are not. 



> Years ago, when the veil tails came about, (Long before my "betta life) It was the THING! then they found out how difficult it was for the fish to carry around those very unnatural and heavy fins. So the hobby turned toward shorter fins for the good of the fish.
> 
> When the EE first came about, they were very pretty. Added a new dimision and "Flare" to an already gorgeous fish. Now it seems, they are breeding for bigger and longer and frillier pectoral fins. The fish seem to not have control of the outer portions of these fins. I do not own an EE betta. But do love the look of the shorter ones. While watching the videos of the ones with the larger EE fins, they seem to be a bit of a hindrance. An avid swimmer myself, yes, I'm not a fish, I can see it would be a problem to have a "flap" that I cannot control, hanging off the ends of my hands. Just a thought that I wanted to share.



Please, go ahead and explain the significance or meaning of this post. There is no factual information what so ever. And you don't even own a elephant ear and yet you are lecturing people on how bad they are?!


----------



## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

El moves about pretty well. He is an HMPKEE, which is what I like about him. Not super long EE trait, just enough to give him a butterfly kind of look. He hasn't shown a single problem for swimming or even buoyancy.

And yes, I do intend to breed him. No super EE, and probably to a plakat female to keep the short finnage. I've watched my fish swim... They use their dorsal, their anal, their caudal, their pectorals - every fin they have is used much like a plane adjusting for wind, height, turning, etc.

Do I intend to breed only for the look? That'd be stupid. And immature. Yes the look will be there to breed with but without a healthy and strong fish... You have nothing. Understandably there will be tail types all, some, or most of you hate and will go off ranting about. Just stop. Don't like it, don't breed them, don't support breeding them. Did you know most people respond to gentle encouragement and not a kick in the ass? 

We as breeders have choices. Breed for looks? Breed for health? Or even bring back health with the looks. Doubletail, rosetails, EE... All technically deformities. But we have a choice. Send them back to the depths or strengthen their genetics - since we decided to take on the role of Mother Nature and god, we now must pay for our decisions and tend to them reasonably.

That's my input.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

All of those lionfish have rigid pectorals, plus they are tail swimmers not pectoral flappers. 

In the vids yeah, the hm has trouble going faster when he uses his body to swim in short fast bursts because of his finnage, when they do short fast bursts they clamp their pectorals up and dont use them. 
Heres another being hindered during short fast bursts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxebprgqYZ8

Short fast bursts=tail and body movement
Casual maneuvering and chilling out=pectoral fins

So you say that excessive finnage on the unpaired fins reduces a Bettas ability to swim but excessive finnage on the paired fins make the fish swim better?


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

We aren't ranting or insulting people and the fish they choose to keep. We are discussing the pros and cons of enlarged pectorals. 
Ideally this would be in a scientific manner and keeping emotion out of it, since emotion has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

The HM still looks more strained to swim than the EE honestly. Even that HM looked strained to swim compared to any EE I have seen. Still say EE's swim better than fish with longer larger tails like DeT and HM.


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

One "trick" my male EE Butch uses those pecs for is taking a vertical nap. I have a bushy plant. Sometimes Butch spreads his big pecs over the top of the plant, burys his nose in it, and upends himself, resting on the platform he's created. Of course, when I first saw him do this, I flipped! I thought he was dead! I rushed over, and he pulled his nose out, looked at me as if to say, "What? I can't take a nap?!"


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

xD that is cute, GAH can't wait to get my EE girl. ^-^ I want a HMPKEE female for the sorority tank.


----------



## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I didn't mean you were ranting - though skimming through there has been a bit of ranting... Or if you rather, "hot debate". Xaltd that adorable. El is a scaredy cat... Though has gotten brave enough to flare at me when it's feeding time.


----------



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

My female EE's pectoral fins are in tatters due to the nipping as I established the tank. Of course, the others have nip marks on their fins, too. Even w/ shredded pecs, they zoom about. I'm hoping they'll grow back as they settle in. Just games of "chase" now, after about 5 weeks. Butch, who has always been solo, has perfect fins. I wonder if the fins are an advantage to aggressors (makes the fish look bigger) or a hindrance, due to possibility of injury. Oh, no! I've started another debate!!


----------



## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's interesting. I know single betta males in a community tank... Their long flowy fins are a target for most fish. Not sure about an EE female in a sorority though. I have PKs doomed to isolation and the four females in the sorority don't do much more than bop with their mouth.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Yeah absolutely, he is straining in his short burst movements due to his large fins. Drag increases with speed, size and shape
Compare 
EE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwxp3vNAf4

Normal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozPtK3aFf8


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> Well then according to your argument halfmoons, doubletails, delta tails, super delta's veiltails, crowntails, crowntail plakats, and halfmoon plakats, rosetails, feather tails, and spade tails are ALL cruel and NO ONE should breed betta because ALL of those tail types are selectively bred and not proven to survive in the wild THUS we shouldn't breed betta's because every tail type and color is unnatural and wrong.


I don't get where you are drawing these conclusions....when did I ever say that it was "cruel" even to breed EEs?? Wanna read all of my posts again?.....because I _never_ said it was cruel nor inhumane to breed any of these show bettas varieties. I was merely arguing the hinderance of their pectoral fins in swimming. 

At this point, I'm pretty sure you've got me mixed up with someone else posting on this thread. Either that or you've become too defensive and feel like I'm either with you or otherwise against you.


----------



## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

trilobite said:


> Yeah absolutely, he is straining in his short burst movements due to his large fins. Drag increases with speed, size and shape
> Compare
> EE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwxp3vNAf4
> 
> Normal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozPtK3aFf8


Really I do not see any more or less strain on the EE with his pectorals. The only difference really is the longer pectorals look more dramatic when they move because they are larger and flutter but the amount of movement is about the same. The only main difference was the EE stopped moving his pectorals a few more times than the standard and held them close to his sides when using his cadual fin. This I assume is nothing more than an easy adaptation which allows them to push themselves forward faster even with the larger pectoral fins. Perhaps in this sense he does not swim the same as the original but it certainly is far from hurting him or decreasing his quality of life as was stated by the OP.

Also as far as fish swimming goes you would know as Sena said all fins are used in swimming. Cadual ALWAYS moved them forward as this is what this fin is designed for. Pectorals are steering, right to left. Anal and dorsal are for balance. I think the ventrals are also balance as well. 

And yes Option you said that EE is a mutation that would not survive in the wild, as are all the other tail types which is true thus according to your argument none of the tail nor colors we have today would be in the wild and this is true...so good thing they are domestic animals and never face the challenges of the wild. And according to your argument something that does not past the test of nature through Evolution is unnatural though we all know mutation and evolution are the same things either forced by nature or by man. So according to your argument of seeing it as unnatural and therefor wrong you would then think you to suspect it's wrong to breed this unnatural tail types to them because it makes it impossible for any of those animals to exist in the wild. Though this is true they are domestic so in short....even ever bringing up an argument like that is trying to compair cats to tigers.


----------



## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Talking about the wild... In the wild, "mother nature" determines who is really the fittest to survive. Our creations (all tail types and colors), our allowance to these mutations and deformities, we become Mother Nature. Which is why we are supposed to be the best we can when breeding... Survival of the fittest isn't as natural, but we should select those strong enough to breed - and preferably from known backgrounds (though we all start somewhere  ). Know how some say "well in the wild no one cleans" it works the same way... We have become their environment holder, we have to care for them.

I don't want to breed huge finned HMs, but it's my preference. I want to aim for medium to short length... So the fish doesn't feel the need to trim back his or her fins so they can swim. If you take responsibility, any tail type will flourish and we can create stronger genetics to even out the unstable ones. Well, hopefully anyways.


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> I don't want to breed huge finned HMs, but it's my preference. I want to aim for medium to short length... So the fish doesn't feel the need to trim back his or her fins so they can swim. If you take responsibility, any tail type will flourish and we can create stronger genetics to even out the unstable ones. Well, hopefully anyways.


+100 its important when breeding a fish that can actually swim like a fish. 

Yep their fins all serve different purposes, if they didnt serve a purpose they wouldnt have them. The tail pushes and all other fins clamp down gives the fish less resistance to do short fast bursts. When they want to stop they open their dorsal, anal, vents and pecs. When cruising and maneuvering its the pectorals that dominate the forward movement of Bettas.
I recommend reading the article I posted earlier, it describes the many different swimming types that different fish have, its quite interesting. 

The dumbo didnt seem able to swim using only his pectorals, he had to use his whole body to get him forwards compared to the normal, who was able to glide around using only his pectorals


----------



## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Don't forget their lovely slime coat that not only protects them... But allows them to glide with ease through the water.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Fun times!



louisvillelady said:


> Swimming is swimming no matter what type of animal or human you are. You just swim in a different manner. Swimming is pushing yourself through the water. Watch the video. When the pectoral fin goes forward, the ends of the fins fold backward, causing a drag. When the pectoral fins go backward toward the body, the ends of the fins want to go forward, because of the drag. The physics is there. plain as day right in front of us. Can these fish swim, yes. Can they swim comparatively as well as others, maybe. Do they need to work harder to be able to do these things, yes!


Swimming is swimming and it is different for every species.. and that goes for EE splendens and non EE splendens too. When the fish is at a standstill the fins fold.. yes.. but it's not creating havoc because the fish is at a standstill.

When a fish swims and it pushes off (where large pectorals would come in handy with..) it will hold it's pectorals at it's side, not using them.. so the size then does not hamper the swimming. Tell me when exactly it is hampering the swimming?



Option said:


> Good jesus....I mean sharks have big pectorals too (and they don't even undulate) and wait...they suriviv in the wild too! :roll:


Well, then why in the world are people being upset that another animal has large pectorals? These aren't wild fish, they don't need to survive predators. So why not have something a bit larger?



Option said:


> Yes but LIONFISH became this way over millions (no trillions) of years of what we call EVOLUTION! EVOLUTION! NOT purposely bred mutants like the way EE bettas are! Let me say that again....LIONFISH EVOLVED this way and that is why they can have volkswagon-sized pectoral fins if they want to AND STILL SURVIVE in the wild. EE bettas are mutations that are purposely propagated for the our entertainment and thus their gallon-sized pectoral fins would not stand a chance in nature. Do you get it yet? Let me summarize:
> 
> EE bettas = mutants w/ big fins
> Lionfish = naturally w/ big fins
> ...


These mutations (which everything in a common domesticated splenden from the colors to all the tail types, body shape, including the short finned plakats) are mutations.. so for anyone who thinks it's cruel to have EEs then the only fish they should own are wild bettas as it's "cruel" to keep all of the fin types and all different colors (don't forget colors are mutated and wouldn't survive in the wild!!) available due to it not being "normal" in the wild. My VTs have much more trouble swimming then my EEs, it's just the way these fish are. I am sure there are mutations in the wild that the parents didn't cull.. who knows. How about other animals with mutations? They have learned to survive.. and in the wild too. These fish are in a controlled environment and if cared for properly will live a healthy life with no lack of quality due to their fins. 



trilobite said:


> Yeah absolutely, he is straining in his short burst movements due to his large fins. Drag increases with speed, size and shape
> Compare
> EE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwxp3vNAf4
> 
> Normal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozPtK3aFf8


His short bursts? He is in a tiny container, barely any room to turn around.. and if you noticed, when he does swim straight across the container he does it in a smooth line with no issues. He is having "burst movements" when he is at the side flaring and doing the posturing. But when he is actually swimming it is completely normal. You do realize that bettas do not swim in a very long burst.. they push off and swim a couple inches then stop long enough to push off once more. They don't glide for long periods of time. 

So again.. kinda moot - they keep their pectorals to their sides when they are in the gliding part of swimming. They only glide for a few inches and then they stop suddenly (but quickly so it looks like they are jerking) and push off once more. So the betta in the video is swimming quite normal for a betta fish, no trouble using his pectorals or getting around at all. 

If you notice the red one in the second video he is doing the side posturing.. which isn't dancing but standing still for the most part and keeping sideways to the other betta. You can't compare one betta posturing sideways to another who is swimming back and forth flaring at it's own reflection. There is no comparison at all. And both are swimming quite normal.


----------



## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Right now we have two HM fish with excellent form but very large fins in the spawn tub. I have never seen any swimming problems with either fish and they have been chasing each other around the tub at warp speed. Should I feel guilty about breeding them now because they both have extra large fins?


----------



## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

"His short bursts?..."
I was referring to the video I posted earlier of a hm being hindered during short burst movement due to his long fins. An example of fin size affecting the drag. 

Yes, believe it or not I do realise Bettas don't swim in long glides, hence why I said short bursts. The reason fish are able to flatten their fins down is wait for it... to reduce drag :shock:

So you are suggesting that an increased surface area actually decreases drag? Thats a very bold claim to make. We have seen increased surface area on the unpaired fins increasing drag, why do you suppose the pectorals to be a different case?

Also sharks have large pectorals because they dont have a swim bladder, their fins are more like plane wings. They need that basic body shape to keep them in the water column. All sharks have those big pectorals and dorsals since its the only way they can stop from sinking


----------



## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

trilobite said:


> The reason fish are able to flatten their fins down is wait for it... to reduce drag :shock:


Excellent point. Everyone just needs to admit that larger surface will create an increase drag and burden on the fish who otherwise have smaller pectorals......this is REGARDLESS of whether you can appreciate it with your eyes or not while watching them. 

And again (for the ba-gillionth time) no one is telling you not to breed EEs. I certainly am not one to proclaim this. But EE owners need to quit thinking their EEs are holy enough to defy mortality, physics, predators, and whatever else out there that seem to burden all other creatures on this planet.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Humans will always manipulate anything and everything according to his preference. We can't do anything about it - you either like them or you don't. The same as CT, large finned HM - or Rose, creating OHM . . . and so on. They are ALL PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Some of the things we do does not benefit the animal in the sense that it doesn't improve the quality of life of the animal. We can only either support or avoid them.

This thread/argument is going nowhere and is more of a debate than discussion. For that reason, I'm closing this thread before it gets worst.


----------

