# Rant: Breeding betta going to the dogs



## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Disclosure: This rant isnt directed at anyone or group in particular. I dont want yelling or hate but its just something I have noticed.

Breeding betta used to be more of a free for all and if your heart was in the right place you were fine. But recently I have noticed that all over the web not just here people are saying that if you dont have a perfect pair you shouldnt even bother and if you do your a bad person. I want to point out that most good breeders started out with some not so good fish. I know that I personally bred a vt to a hm lol but would I do it again yes. I think long time breeders can be rude to first time breeders and can make them feel like what they want to do is wrong. I understand not wanting to flood the market wit second rate fish and that its hard to find good homes etc. But we could never have gotten that far without second rate fish. Just because someone wants to or cant afford perfect fish to breed dosent mean that they shouldnt. It is rather disheartening to see those types of comments on here or anywhere for that matter. I think if someone is willing to work hard and will keep the babies or find good homes I think they should. Its the same thing that happened in the dog world. Dog showing has become so elite and secluded that if you dont have perfect lines or a perfect dog you shouldnt even bother. What happened to the fun and the thrill of it? Why shouldnt everyone get to experience something like that? I guess I am confused as to why people say no when someone else's fish arent "perfect". I guess I am trying to say we should encourage doing something you love then discouraging it. Thats how most strains ended up was believing dedication and not following strict guidlines of the idea of perfect.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

> people are saying that if you dont have a perfect pair you shouldnt even bother and if you do your a bad person. I want to point out that most good breeders started out with some not so good fish.


 THANK YOU. YOU ARE MY HERO.




> I am confused as to why people say no when someone else's fish arent "perfect".


 Perfect does not exist. So when someone says MY fish are not perfect, I can easily turn it back on them. TEHY aren't perfect, their fish aren't, I'm not, my fish aren't. WHat a coincidence :lol:

What DID happen to the thrill of it? Whatever happened to ENCOURAGEMENT? I understand people don't want a deformed bettas crossed with a tumor betta... Common sense. 

My first bred was a PK and a VT. Now I have a CT, bred to a VT and resulted in a spikey little guy! Now my next pair is a CTxCT. Are they some AB specially bred perfect fish? Nahh :lol: 

But they are MY fish, my pride, my joy, my love and hobby. I think people should say "well this is what the spawn will be like...Here's some tips..." but none of the "don't breed ever" or "bring your fish back to the store" kind of attitudes. I know it is not on here, but anywhere... 

But really, if you're willing to realize your consequences in having maybe 80 offspring, and willing to commit to said consequences, why not do it? Why not learn? Why not be able to teach others?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Lol glad Im your hero  I just got so fed up with negative undertones. I agree with everything you said and p.s. i LOVE your babies.


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## bettaboytroy (Apr 15, 2012)

Agreed Creat. I am new to breeding and my main goal is just to get some offspring. I'm not breeding to sell my babies for $25.00 a pop. I'm doing it for the challenge and joy of it and give away the babies or charge just a buck or two to a lfs. My first and only success was a Halfmoon male with a Crowntail female. Major no no from what I understand. The babies were beautiful and I learned so much. As far as dogs are concerned it seems like the "mutts" are some of the best dogs around. I don't think hard core breeders need to worry too much about getting poor fish introduced into the market. Serious breeders know what there looking for and usually know as much as possible about the lineage of their fish. When it comes down to it most people don't breed their betta's and the average person on the street has 1 or 2 bettas that live for a year or two. 

I love the information on this site but sometimes am a little disheartened when a newbie comes on and is soo excited about his/her new fish, says they have it in 1/2 gallon bowl and is chastised for not properly taking care of the fish. I think a lot of those who say you can never properly take good care of a fish for cheap have never tried. If you have the money to spoil your fish great but don't discourage someone else or think they're doing something wrong for wanting to have a betta. It's one thing to say "Hey, I tried such and such and it didn't work for me." and another thing telling them they need to run out and blow $75.00 or their fish will surely die.I am not pointing fingers at any specific person and the comment about the $75.00 is just a made up scenario but I get an uneasy feeling about discouraging breeding and not having fish in bowls/vases. As I write this I have 11 happy/healthy fish surrounding me in 1 gallon or less containers. Honestly I was a little intimidated to even let people know about my experience for fear of being berated and I'm 39 years old. how many people are out there reading this site but afraid to join in?

When all is said and done we are human, they are fish. We are masters over them and they were put here for our enjoyment and to glorify God. With that said we should be the best stewards that we can be and should provide them the things they need to the best of our ability. When a newbie posts on the site our main concern should be 1st for the person posting, THAN the fish.

Kudos to those who breed for the best line and to those who just want to experience a wonder of nature. Personally I've never had anyone be disrespectful to me on this site. Replies to my posts have always been positive. I think in almost all cases people are trying to help the new guy. Thanks everyone for the help you've given me and sharing my interests.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks :lol: Did you see my new girl?! My adorable, pet store betta xD Big Al's store, to be exact. Some Edmonton goers recommended that store 

Oh, how about age? Age and breeding. "You're too young to breed." :/ I've heard some people be told that... It's kinda sad. Considering most of our brilliant breeders are young 


Edit: Bettaboytroy, good to hear you've been helped out a lot! I like this site for that.


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## bettaboytroy (Apr 15, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> Thanks :lol: Did you see my new girl?! My adorable, pet store betta xD Big Al's store, to be exact. Some Edmonton goers recommended that store
> 
> Oh, how about age? Age and breeding. "You're too young to breed." :/ I've heard some people be told that... It's kinda sad. Considering most of our brilliant breeders are young
> 
> ...


Awesome fish you have there!

Hmmm...? Maybe that's why I'm having trouble getting my fish to produce fry... *I'm Too Old!* LOL


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

NAHHHH lol. I know both old and young who can do it haha.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Okay, I'm the partypooper here, I guess.

Re the breeding.. I think it's fair enough that people who are concerned with fish welfare might step in to suggest it's not okay to plop a male and female together in a tank and wait for the babies. I really do. Especially when they have NO idea how to care for fry, no plan for growout and no clue how to rehome 100 baby fish other than sending them to pet store cups (where they'll have such a great time..).

I also think that it's not okay to keep a fish in under a gallon of water. Even less so if they're in the hands of inexperienced fishkeepers, who then all end up posting on the sick fish threads 'omg, he's gone fuzzy/has fin rot/is lethargic!" 



> I think a lot of those who say you can never properly take good care of a fish for cheap have never tried. If you have the money to spoil your fish great but don't discourage someone else or think they're doing something wrong for wanting to have a betta.


I'm a single mum to a teenager, have a mobility impairment, and am on a pension. I have ZERO spare money most of the time. I go without stuff to keep my fish. Sorry, but it's kind of rude to assume that everyone concerned with betta welfare is throwing money around left and right.

ETA: of course, doing it cheap is really possible. I know, because sometimes I have to! But that doesn't mean I keep mine in .5 of a gallon..

I discourage new-to-betta people from breeding/keeping fish in dinky little tanks because I see the fish suffering from it so often. Sorry if it doesn't float your boat. I just feel bad for the fish.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Most people start out with wrong information but do pretty good with what they have.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Sena: Love your girl she is adorable very patriotic for America lol to bad your canadian  

bettaboy: Glad you have had good luck and fish dont know your age so its not like it matters 

Aus: Agreed people should research before even getting a betta let alone breeding. And their are cheap ways to give fish great care (walmart is so my shopping center for diy fish supplies). And I also agree that people who cant care for their pets shouldnt ever consider creating more. But what I am trying to say is I see a lot of you should breed such and such pair cause their ugly or wouldnt have good form or color etc. and I think that is wrong.


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## TheCrabbyTabby (Jul 7, 2012)

I have to agree with Aus and unfortunately be a party pooper too. 

When breeding anything, its imperative, no mandatory to do mountains of research before hand. Breeding is something that takes a lot of time, dedication and costs a fair bit of money. Just because someone else does it and it looks like fun doesn't automatically make it okay for you to do it too. 

Think before you bring a bunch of fish into this world who are ultumately going to suffer and rot in their own filth at someones hand, a someone who knowns next to nothing about betta care. Because chances are, that's where they will wind up. In a vase, a .25 gallon bowl, or worse, as someone's sick idea of a decoration for a wedding. 

Think before you go and do something you have absolutely know idea about doing. If you truely want to breed fish, and I mean breed them to better their form, color, or health, then talk to experienced breeders, watch what they do, learn from them. Chances are, they were novices too and they might have valuable knowledge they have gained from their experience that is not in any text book or website. Ask them about a million questions and only after that ONLY AFTER THAT, start to begin to think about how you're going to go about your fish breeding. What lines do you want to enhance? What colors and patterns are you aiming to shoot for? 

Also ask yourself these questions too. How well do you know betta genetics? How well do you know the proper betta form for the type of betta your breeding? What are the major NO-NO's to look out for? 

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys, but the reality of it is, its not as easy as you think. Sure you CAN get a nice color from a pairing of two substandard betta, but that doesn't mean you should do it. 

Just think, please, think before you rush into something your not totally 100% prepared for.


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## TheCrabbyTabby (Jul 7, 2012)

Creat said:


> Sena: Love your girl she is adorable very patriotic for America lol to bad your canadian
> 
> bettaboy: Glad you have had good luck and fish dont know your age so its not like it matters
> 
> Aus: Agreed people should research before even getting a betta let alone breeding. And their are cheap ways to give fish great care (walmart is so my shopping center for diy fish supplies). And I also agree that people who cant care for their pets shouldnt ever consider creating more. But what I am trying to say is I see a lot of you should breed such and such pair cause their ugly or wouldnt have good form or color etc. and I think that is wrong.



So your suggesting breeding two fish with poor flaws and possibly poor genetics with each other to produce yet more poor deformed fish is okay? !


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

Creat said:


> Disclosure: This rant isnt directed at anyone or group in particular. I dont want yelling or hate but its just something I have noticed.
> 
> Breeding betta used to be more of a free for all and if your heart was in the right place you were fine. But recently I have noticed that all over the web not just here people are saying that if you dont have a perfect pair you shouldnt even bother and if you do your a bad person. I want to point out that most good breeders started out with some not so good fish. I know that I personally bred a vt to a hm lol but would I do it again yes. I think long time breeders can be rude to first time breeders and can make them feel like what they want to do is wrong. I understand not wanting to flood the market wit second rate fish and that its hard to find good homes etc. But we could never have gotten that far without second rate fish. Just because someone wants to or cant afford perfect fish to breed dosent mean that they shouldnt. It is rather disheartening to see those types of comments on here or anywhere for that matter. I think if someone is willing to work hard and will keep the babies or find good homes I think they should. Its the same thing that happened in the dog world. Dog showing has become so elite and secluded that if you dont have perfect lines or a perfect dog you shouldnt even bother. What happened to the fun and the thrill of it? Why shouldnt everyone get to experience something like that? I guess I am confused as to why people say no when someone else's fish arent "perfect". I guess I am trying to say we should encourage doing something you love then discouraging it. Thats how most strains ended up was believing dedication and not following strict guidlines of the idea of perfect.


I wanted to breed two of my CT's but since they are petstore betta's they aren't really worthy of it even though a few people are interested in the fry


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

TheCrabbyTabby: Deformed no. But what one person sees and ugly someone else might think is beautiful. Just like some countries prefer longer anal fins on hm versus even all the way around. I have said I think people should research before, never said they shouldnt I think its crucial but if their goal is to breed their favorite male and female together should they not? (If they are prepared for housing the babies, care, etc.) Because then more then half the people breeding on this forum have made big no no's.

xShainax: You should breed whomever you want to but if your hearts not in it dont do it. Thats what I think.


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

My hearts into it but I can't buy microworms lol


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Its okay I cant hatch bbs for the life of me


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I would feed them first bites but I read that they are too big


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## TheCrabbyTabby (Jul 7, 2012)

Do you have the room and ability to keep 100 fish? That means changing 100 tanks of water on a weekly basis if not more, feeding 100 fish daily or twice daily, treating/medicating 100 fish for a possible outbreak of a disease, and buying 100 tanks in the first place.


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## TheCrabbyTabby (Jul 7, 2012)

I can hatch BBS, and even grow them to adults, but I don't want breed. Mostly because I know I can't afford it or have the room, or have proper breeding stock.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks Creat. I've noticed this place is going crazy with everything. As long as you know what you're doing you're fine, who cares if you're breeding pet store fish VT mutt things? I know Sakura is planning a VT spawn, and I can't imagine anyone telling her not to do it (because, you know, she has an electric catfish- scary :-D).
Looking back I miss those cute VT spawn logs with their owners writing down every little detail of what happened every day. We just don't get those anymore. o-o It's all about the destination, not the journey, these days.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

xShainax: Mine are so fussy they wont eat it, very few spawns will, I have tried they look and me and go 'feed me properly or I will starve myself HA' 

TheCrabbyTabby: Personally yes I do but thats because I have collected over time. Do other people probably not, but then I think not many breeders do. Many are realistic about 1/2 of 100 will be female so then only 50, males will need to be jarred but thats if they survive. Most spawns I encounter, except very large professional ones, are about 60.

Olympia: I miss those logs to I think many new breeders are discouraged because their pairs arent "perfect".


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I would be curious to see what breeding Leo my VT with one of my girls would look like but alas, I am too chicken to


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

> if their goal is to breed their favorite male and female together should they not? (If they are prepared for housing the babies, care, etc.) Because then more then half the people breeding on this forum have made big no no's.


If people have all the right gear and info and a pair of fish that aren't deformed or sickly, and they're prepared for repairing adult fish after possible fights, etc and have somewhere for the fry to go that isn't dinky little pet store cups (not all pet stores keep their fish horribly!) then -- why not? 

There's more than a few pet store bettas I've drooled over on this site, and would not say no to a fry from. Also, some wonderful fish with pet store parents. Lovely, healthy, vibrant bettas, I'd buy one in a blink. 

But then look at who breeds them, and how much care and dedication they put in...


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## TheCrabbyTabby (Jul 7, 2012)

Breeding veiltales is highly frowned upon. They are the mutts of the betta world and have nothing to contribute genetically to better the betta as a fish.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

xShainax: Hey if you care for the fry or cull hard why not? But I think everything is up to the owner. 

Aus: Agreed  

TheCrabbyTabby: VT maybe common house hold betta but they are not mutts they have a form but not many people work on perfecting it. I actually have a side project that I am starting where I am planning on breeding a better vt.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yea, culling is another option. Don't freak out, tons of "good" breeders will cull out an entire spawn except the 1-2 fish that suits their needs. 

Creat, so glad someone else here actually appreciated those spawn logs. Sometimes I want to breed just to go through all the dramas of those spawn logs. If I ever get my mouthbrooders I will definitely have an awesome spawn log for them. 

And TheCrabbyTabby: Why do you say that? I'm seriously curious.


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

Leo is a very interesting color, it would be awesome to see if the fry will cme out his color


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Point of cheap: 17.8 gallon tub for 6.00 wal-mart style :lol: I may use it for a grow out. A decent, grow out.

Creat: patriotic... D'OH! >< I need to find a red and white (to which I say...I shall die for hahaha) ooo imagine red and white -drools-

BIG EDIT: I have a great VEILTAIL female who I bred. I resulted in a possible combtail/ct baby, from her and my CT Ricky. I dislike the term "mutts" mind as well say "useless disgrace" because for some reason that comes to mind when I hear mutts :lol: My VT had fairly even finnage, a good bodyline - the male has a bit short of a caudal, so using VT actually increases finnage length  (bwaha! a method to my madness...)


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I have soo many empty tubs lying around >.<


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hey Shaina! If and when I get microworms, would you like me to send you a bit, free of charge? Least I could do


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

TheCrabbyTabby said:


> Breeding veiltales is highly frowned upon. They are the mutts of the betta world and have nothing to contribute genetically to better the betta as a fish.



Being ME was highly frowned upon, for most of the 80's (and part of the 90's..) and yet... here I still am.  :lol:

Minus the mohawk. :-(

But I digress! I don't much give a crap for 'fashion' when it comes to animal breeding. VT's are, like it or not, a betta tail type. I commend the folks who are looking to restore the type to the show ring. VT's are pretty darned special, in my book. I'd breed a healthy, well-conformed pair if I was so inclined and had homes for the fry.


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> Hey Shaina! If and when I get microworms, would you like me to send you a bit, free of charge? Least I could do


Would love that.  Zackybear was supposed to but with everything that went on, I don't blame him for forgetting


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Hmm. I need to start collecting live food for my mouth brooders. Hurrhurr. All we have locally is vinegar eel cultures.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

xShainax: I am a bad influence lol do it

Sena : almost all my spawning tanks and grow outs are walmart. And I love your madness at least i can follow yours 

Aus: That made me lol. Its like designer dogs (mutts)I have designer betta fish. And I am all for restoring vt in show where would we be without them.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

> But I digress! I don't much give a crap for 'fashion' when it comes to animal breeding. VT's are, like it or not, a betta tail type. I commend the folks who are looking to restore the type to the show ring. VT's are pretty darned special, in my book. I'd breed a healthy, well-conformed pair if I was so inclined and had homes for the fry.


 If it weren't for the fact Maine has that Mystery Disease, I would've kept his 12 fry. Veiltail with PK background no doubt, but it was a decent VT finnage... Which here seems darn rare. I'd have to get a VT from Big Al's...Now THEY have great finnage for VT 



> Would love that.  Zackybear was supposed to but with everything that went on, I don't blame him for forgetting


 Hopefully mine come in here soon. Then once we move, end of this month I can send some to you =D


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I am not partial to VT's but Leo re-sparked my interest


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Someone. PLEASE do a VT spawn and write about it everyday for me. xD
:lol:


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

If VTs were allowed in American shows there'd be no issue breeding them provided that they were from pure lines.

Europe has us beat on that.


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## TheCrabbyTabby (Jul 7, 2012)

Or better yet, grab a baby betta from Petco. They are mostly veiltails anyways.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Europe has us beat on EVERYTHING.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Okay someone explain so why dosent the USA allow vt? I think not many people would mind.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I love Europe. Can't wait to go to Spain next year. I want to meet some of the breeders there.

TBH I'm not sure why the US doesn't allow them in the regular show classes. They can be shown in NB1 (single tail new breeder male) but won't probably place well due to the other breeders entering HMs.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

They just fell out of favor here I guess. 
My dream is to go to an aquatics convention in Germany. There's so many high tech aquarium things that I can only dream about on this side of the world. -sigh-


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

My first betta was a VT. I had a marble from walmart. They are unique.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I'm partial to Spain and Portugal lol. Just because my family ties there lol. The Netherlands has some amazing breeders as well. Germany has a few good ones too. Sieg Illig (one of the top breeders) is from Germany.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Maybe you could bring an exemplary pair of VT's or two back with you, Mr. V? >>

I'd sure love to see them being bred, even if not for the show ring but simply as good examples of their type. Perhaps having a few really great examples floating about (pun intended) might encourage a bit of a paradigm shift..

ETA: I have a few Portuguese friends.. I'd LOVE to go there. Amazing place.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Out of betta for a second, Germany is home to the top fish keepers of pretty much everything. They keep things you'd never find on a Western market. 
I'm more of an Easterner. Poland has some amazing aquascapers. Again, not betta, I know. -__-

Mr V was working on something on the lines of that, Aus. Not sure what happened to it though, I heard something bad happened to his fish room? :s


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

I know about breeding and showing of dogs, I have a champion pembroke welsh corgi who has rock solid conformation (She has even won group placements) but I am having difficulties finding a good boy for her because she comes from stock lines instead from a bloodline who has been champions for generations so no breeders want to introduce their dogs with her "mixed blood". That is pretty much calling her a pet quality or mutt. It is a very difficult, political world the dog show is. But I digress. 

I do not want to see betta breeding become this, I entered the breeding of bettas for my own personal enjoyment and because Anna is retired and I needed something to fill the time I used to groom and train her. I love reading any spawn logs, whether it be from pet bettas or from a show line. EVERY betta, regardless of quality, tail-type and form has their own problems for VT's it would be re-homing the entire spawn, for HM's its worrying about retaining the spread to be considered a HM's and hoping they don't become tailbiters or get blown finnage. The first betta I considered spawning? The one in my avatar and he is less than ideal for a breeding male, so what. I had many people who wanted the fry because his coloring in person was beautiful. Unfortunately, he passed away during a bacterial outbreak I had from our municipal tap-water which killed almost all of my fish I had at the time. So in my own opinion, as long as someone is willing to put in the effort to raise the fry from start to finish I am with them all the way. In the dog show world, they tell you to spay/neuter your dog and never think about showing him/her because they will never win a title or get their championship. I had a breeder come up and tell that right to my face about Anna before we went into the ring. Guess what happened, we beat her entered female and took Best of Winners for the major. So do not believe in the people that tell you cannot do something, because you can if you are willing to put the effort in you can surely succeed.

That is my rant, I am done now and I will go back in my corner and clean my jars. 

I hope to see new spawn logs soon, one that documents with pictures and tells the stories and the knowledge they have experienced.

-Sincerely


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

Are you afraid that VT's would become extinct?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I would love to import high quality also vt s if I could find some that way beginner breeders of vts could have a good example as a goal. I think good vt are going extinct.

Sincerely: You got my connection yay. And im glad you beat that woman and I hope you find a good boy for your girl. I dont want betta to turn into dog showing its to vicious.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

> Are you afraid that VT's would become extinct?


Heck no. They're mass-bred for the pet store market.

But that's exactly the problem, and probably why the US IBC won't touch them (I wonder, though, how they're dealing with all the 'mutt' halfmoons flooding the stores now...)

And because they're mass-bred and so little care goes into it all, there's a lot of sickly fish that end up being problems for their eventual owners (like my pet store HM.. but I digress..)

Having very sound/perfect finned VT's available, that are "European show-bred" would be a vast encouragement to get health AND tail type back to a good standard. 

And it'd give us VT-lovers a bit more choice about the fish we buy...


(as an aside, Mr. V - there's a new betta owner with a very nice spade tail here.. )
​


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I actually have an orange VT male. Just gotta get a girl for him. I'm working towards bettas4all standards. Maybe something will come out of it. I'm thinking of crossing him to a 2 ray trad PK from my multi metallic spawn... that'll throw some lookers.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

The difference between dogs and fish is, hullo, all those health tests for dogs.
No betta breeder runs health tests on their fish. Fish are bred for looks and looks only. So, breed the look you like. :-D
And I never got why everyone should breed show stock. Most of us will never go near an IBC show. Most people are just after pet quality anyways.
I get why people breed for show- it's more of a challenge. I guess it can also be a huge confidence boost. 
Know what you are doing and have fun.


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

An orange betta? I have seen one and it was a creamsicle


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Mr.V : that sounds cool I was going to mix my nice mustard gas vt female with a good male if i find one and cross to a hm of mine to see if i can get nicer spread and length.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Nothing wrong with pet quality! All mine are pet store fish. I have just learned to pick and choose with my head, not my heart alone, and pass by the ones bound to prove sickly long-term. Healthy fish are a joy to keep.

I have found a pet store that keep its fish nicely, bettas in barracks, and has healthy, good-looking fish so if I get any new splendens it'll be from there. 

They had nice true green fish last I was there.. and omg, the VT's.. I don't think I had ever seen a good example of one in person, until I saw those.

ETA: Ooh, Mr. V.. pics?


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Haha! Definitely true about the health tests, I have even done that with Anna and she gets flying colors across the board.

Fish have health issues too, bent/deformed spines, short bodies and ocular impairments in dragonscales. I would never breed a betta with a deformed spine because that would be inherited into the next generation at a higher rate. But of course they wouldn't test for genetic diseases, how would you test for it anyways? It would be a pain to get a blood sample from a betta or get an x-ray LOL

I love breeding for show, its just my hobby because it gives me a goal I can go towards. I love having goals, it keeps me focused. But you are right, the majority of people want a good-lookin pet, that's what my friends want. They don't know what a breeding quality betta looks like and if I begin to talk about the conformation of bettas they look at me like I have grown a second head. :lol:


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

Like I said, with me being autistic, my fish have been my constant companions and I am confident enough to move onto something else besides platies and mollies


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yep. I'm sure most people would rather pay $10 for a long anal fin halfmoon, than $20 for a nice halfmoon (that's being nice too), if everything else is equal. 

Aus- I tried choosing a sickly looking fish once. I ended up with my Reuben, a 2.5-3 inch veil tail who is unstoppable. Those darned mall fish. xD


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

What about Combtails?


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Ha, Olympia! That was good luck, glad to hear you got a good one from it.

Sadly, my two less than sound boys (from the same manky store) proved to have just too many problems to thrive. One has passed away - he was my first betta - and the other is .. well. He's alive. Problem after problem.. poor lil feller. He's just weedy and sickly, and that's what he is. But we love him all the same, just it's taught me to pick and choose to avoid that heartbreak.. and avoid supporting bad stores/ bad breeders who produce fish with so little chance of ever thriving..


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## magnum (May 7, 2012)

I agree, so many people ( not on this forum) have turned me off breeding, simply because I have pet store variety fish. If anything I would love to breed my fish and sell the young betta's at my local market, where people can get proper education about how to treat them, instead of getting the Pet Store advice from the muppets that work there.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Muppets! :lol:

It's my favourite term for them.


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## magnum (May 7, 2012)

Same! After all, they are less than proficient at there jobs.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Haha legend!so true!

What I say is there is nothing wrong with breeding petstore betta's, but getting to your goals will be harder in the long run, and although I imported a male and a female, I wouldn't mind a bit of hard work either


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

magnum: I think you would do just fine breeding your babies. After all I think if you love the parents you ought to love the babies.

Just because all you can do is breed pet store fish I think that if properly infomed and dedicated it is just fine.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

The bottom line is if you can't find a market for your fish you will stop breeding them because you are stuck with them. It is no more or no less cruel than culling them as fry to euthanize them as adults. It is like any other livestock. Of course, if you are breeding purely for yourself just to see what you get then the rules don't apply to you. Do what you wish. If you intend on selling your product then it is the wise thing to do to breed quality ONLY because the there are high quality fish widely available and as a consumer I can promise you that I am spending my money on the pretty or rare fish. I can do this because of the wide variety available to me. It's our nature to do that.

So, as long as you are ready to do right by the lives you create then don't worry about it.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Shaina: Combtails can be F2 or F3 bred =D I bred my VT lady to my CT, and I think I have a shaggy VT from it :lol:

However I will note, watching people look at bettas they tend to go "Oh look! This guy has spikes..." to the shaggy VTs. I think if you give someone the right colors, and right even look, they'll buy it. I bought "Candy" my CT because her colors jumped out more than the dark blue gal. I bought El Dorado because well...he was gold! :lol: Even if being VTs, they have to have the more rare, unique or awesome colors people love.

My suggestion to breeding: Ask around. Do a small poll if you must, in your area. WHO likes bettas? WHO would buy? And WHAT colors do they love or would like to see? Here, orange is coming back (yessss!!), flawless red is loved, baby blue, purple, black, white, and marble (or koi) is most loved too ;-) I got my game plan haha.

Y'know, for those not breeding super-awesome-could-be-in-shows bettas... Don't overprice the fry. If you have 8, alright. If you have 20, alright. I have all my supplies, haven't needed to spend more than 6.00 on the last one (for leaves I never received  ) but it allowed me to learn my female may have "bad eggs" or whatever. I got one fry, who I'm keeping... But for future fry, I intend to beat store prices for my bettas, to get known. My CTs may end up 4.00 :lol:


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

+1 Sena

I plan on pricing my fry dirt cheap just to move them into great homes. I am working on projects for my own enjoyment so of course my best fish aren't going anywhere. Hopefully, if we all did this we could muscle places like Wal-Mart right out of the betta business.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

> Even if being VTs, they have to have the more rare, unique or awesome colors people love.


My local LFS (not the manky one where I got my sickly boys!) recently had a dragonscale VT.. which was the most beautiful pale gold, almost ivory, just a little touch of gold under the white. Hard to describe, but he really caught my eye! Amazing fins, too. And another -huge- scarlet/black VT with the biggest, billowiest fins I have ever seen on one, simply stunning. 

They also had a true green CT that Daughter is still wailing about, as we simply cannot take care of any more fish, with the strohi coming.

But if the 8 gallon had been spare that day...:roll:

Whoever is breeding these bettas and supplying the store is not the average fish mill farmer or 'throw-em-together' BYB. These are -quality- pet fish. I'd have paid good money for that gold VT, having never seen one like it. Makes me happy to see bettas like that in a pet store.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

See, we need breeders of VT like the one Aus has.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

> My local LFS (not the manky one where I got my sickly boys!) recently had a dragonscale VT.. which was the most beautiful pale gold, almost ivory, just a little touch of gold under the white. Hard to describe, but he really caught my eye! Amazing fins, too. And another -huge- scarlet/black VT with the biggest, billowiest fins I have ever seen on one, simply stunning.


 -GASP- :lol: I would love them. hahaha

I loved El Dorado. Though I see here in my area yellows are very sicly  They get sick easier, stressed easier, and die sooner. -Sigh- If I got a good yellow pair from Ontario or overseas, I'd breed them.


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I wanted to breed TDP because people wanted to buy his offspring


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yea, TDP is nice. No one on this forum knows a lot about CT form so maybe you'd be safe even. xD
I like my new CT too. The thought came back into my mind. But nooo jars for me. Oh god no.


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

Lol, I have about 30 of those betta jars I got from Petsmart.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I get my jars from the second hand store :lol: usually 3.50 for a dozen large


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