# Spots on mouth?



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Housing 
What size is your tank? 15 gal
What temperature is your tank? 78
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? 2 types of betta dry pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? once/twice daily

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 30% 1x/2x per week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 30%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Prime

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: check in couple hours, was 0 last week
Nitrite: check in couple hours, was 0 last week
Nitrate: check in couple hours, was 20ppm before h20 change
pH: 7.4-ish
Hardness: don't know
Alkalinity: don't know

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? little white spot on mouth
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? none
When did you start noticing the symptoms? today
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? no
Does your fish have any history of being ill? no
How old is your fish (approximately)? got Bud 2 months ago


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I'm sure you'll be asked this question: Does it appear fuzzy or smooth? You stated in your other thread that he had a couple of white scales a few weeks ago but they went away after 3-5 days. Did those scales look the same as what you see on his mouth?? Did he possibly have a few missing scales when you got him? When scales grow back they can appear whitish or grayish. Just curious. I want to make sure we rule out all possibilities while diagnosing!!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Not Bud!

Yes, we will need to know whether or not it looks cottony to validate the suspicion. 
It does look like it though, so I will go ahead and give you the treatment for that so you can be ready once you see whether or not it looks cottony.

Mouth Fungus is called it because it looks like a fungus attack of the mouth. It is actually caused from the bacterium Chondrococcus columnaris. It shows up first as a gray or white line around the lips and later as short tufts sprouting from the mouth like fungus. The toxins produced and the inability to eat will be fatal unless treated at an early stage. Hard to treat, but not impossible. Like any disease best caught early. 

You will want to Qt him in a smaller container - either a gallon bowl, or even a tupperware container where you can float/tape it inside his tank to keep him warm. I'd lower the heater down to 76-78.
Maracyn simultaneously with Maracyn II is the type of medicine most recommended. You can try the conservative route with AQ salt, but I think it would be best to use the medicine since you want to get rid of it quickly so it won't hamper his eating. 
I believe if I recall, it's 1 packet per 10 gallons for Maracyn, and 2 packets per 10 gallon for Maracyn 2. 
It should say how much % water change you will need to do, so I would follow that. You may be able to do it in his home tank provided you don't have any live plants. Live plants and most medicine don't do well together. If you go the QT route, then make sure you do a good cleaning job on his tank, do 50% water change every day for a few days, while siphoning his gravel.

I think that should cover it.. unless someone knows of another way to treat, or knows what else it could be. Good luck and keep us updated on how he is doing. 

If it is not "cottony" but flush to his face.. then he may of rubbed it and injured it on something. So look carefully =)


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Now that I am thinking about it.. would be hard to accurately dispense the meds in a smaller container.. so probably be best to do in his tank, if you have live plants you can possibly put them in another container to wait out the medication. Make sure you do a few water changes when you are done with the medicine and prior to adding in the plants. I believe Maracyn will also cause the water to turn blue, so you can use that to help judge how long to do the water changes.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Will check his mouth. I was using a magnifying glass bur wasn't sure. Will check again this evening and decide what to do. He is eating fine so far.

 . 

I'm unhappy


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input, here's what I just had to do with a new sick betta. I bought a 2.5 gal and put my 50W in there - just adjust it down to about 76 to keep it at a constant 80. I floated my Betta Log in there too. Anyway, with the Maracyn II, it normally calls for dosages for a 10 gal tank ie. 1 packet per 10 gal. For a 2.5 here's what you do: Get a 5c jug. For day one, fill it with 5c. dechlorinated water and start with 2 packets. Stir it up. Add 2 1/2c of that medicated water to his 2.5gal. Throw out the rest. The next day do a 100% water change. Fill up another 5c jug with dechlorinated water and use 1 packet. Stir it up and add 2 1/2c of that to his 2.5gal. Keep the remainder for the next day. You'll want to repeat the 100% water changes and 1 packet, 2 1/2c dosage for the remaining 2 to 5 day treatment. Do not mix it with AQ salt. You can't mix meds with AQ. I'm not sure if it's best to use Maracyn or Maracyn II for Columnaris. You can google it, or I'm sure someone else might know. Sakura8 has directed me with all the info I just gave you so hopefully she'll see your thread and step in! I gave you the dosages for Maracyn II. As Myates stated, the dosage for Maracyn is a little different. At least you have a process on how to dose for a small QT. We'll stay posted!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Awww.. I can imagine. Not the studdly Bud =(

Once you can tell for certain if it is cottony, then you at least know what direction to go in. If it's not cottony, then we will do something different.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

For cotton mouth, a lot will recommend Maracyn 1 and 2 at the same time. But, I could be wrong. I'll msg Super Fish Girl and see if she is around tonight and see if she can help a little more.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm blushing here.  You guys are too kind. :}

So hi input nirvana, I hear Bud is in a bit of trouble. Poor guy. So far, it sounds like he's still able to eat, so that's good news. Has the white spot spread at all? In the pic, it does look a little fuzzy to me but definitely check and let us know for sure. With a spot like that on his mouth, I'm thinking that it is either mouth rot/columnaris or the beginnings of lymphocystis. If the white spot isn't fuzzy, I would lean towards lymphocystis. But for now, let's continue treating it like it's columnaris. 

There are two ways to do this, conservative and aggressive. If you want to treat conservative, you would put the big guy in a QT tank with 3 tsps of aquarium salt and lower the heat to 76 degrees. Daily water changes, redose the salt for 14 days maximum. If the spot hasn't spread or grown, I would probably recommend starting with this just because meds can be stressful.

Aggressive treatment has already been spelled out by the lovely ladies before me. Maracyn I and Maracyn II combined. Again, a QT tank is probably best. Definitely get a few 1 gallon jugs, like the type spring water comes in. I need to double check the dosage on Maracyn I and then I'll post back about that. 

In the meantime, I hope the big guy continues to do well. He has a really lovely dark coloring, a handsome guy.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks Sakura, you're a doll! Now I can go finish my McDonald's salad and not feel guilty knowing he's in good hands =) 

I couldn't remember exactly the conservative treatment. This was the first time I went immediately to the meds. Glad you can help him!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I am using a pair of glasses that magnify objects slightly and a 3x magnifying glass. Buds lip looks like it has a slight divot, or indentation. I don't think it's fuzzy. If it is fuzzy at all, it may only be under his lip, but I'm still trying to see that in the light. If it is cotton mouth, would his lip be white without fuzz?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Somehow, I was able to see his lip with a 6x magnifying glass several times for several seconds each time. Bud is very active, he doesn't just sit there.

His lip has an indentation, like a tiny "v" cut into it. I'm pretty certain it's not fuzzy, but there is a single, tiny thread coming from the edge of the "v" it seems. This area with the 'v' and the tiny hair-like thread is almost white. It seems like it could be a piece of fish-flesh. There is an edge to the aquarium that he has hit in his excitement to get food since I hand feed him each pellet. It seems to be able to cause a wound that would be a "v" on his lip.

Maybe wait till morning and determine then?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I hope it's an injury!! It sounds like it could be. My crazy VT female jumps all the time when I feed. We call her our African Jumping Shark, so I know what you're talking about. Keep an eye on him and let us know. You have great doctor ladies to direct you on any method you need. We fall madly in love with our silly bettas and freak out if something goes wrong. Welcome to the ranks!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I can't let anything happen to Bud, I'll keep an eye on him first thing am. It would definitely be fuzzy by then? I will be totally free to get/do whatever he needs.

I'm able to grab more close up glances. There definitely appears to be a divot in his lower side lip. There is that tiny 'string' which I guess could look like cotton? Cotton isn't really fuzzy, it's stringy...

It's now 10pm here, I will have to inspect him in the am, and go to pet store as soon as they open. I assume his 'condition' may be more apparent in another 10-12 hours.

Thank you for your help, Bud is relying on me being able to do what he needs. He doesn't have a drivers license (yet) and he obviously can't use an electronic telephone.

Top pic-you can see divot
Botton pic-is it starting to look like cotton? There is one tiny thread...

















Took 20 mins to get those pics, all the rest are unusable, he moves almost constantly.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

input nirvana, you're doing a good job getting close looks considering Bud is still very active. It's hard to get a look at them when they don't want to stay still. >.< Okay, based on what you're saying there's a strong possibility he injured his lip on the aquarium rim. That would explain the divot part. But columnaris can sneak is a secondary infection, which is what may be happening now. 

My suggestion is you try the AQ salt first, 3 tsps per gallon and lower the heat to 76 degrees. If, after several days of treatment, the white part hasn't gone away or has spread, we can try the medicines. You can pick them up to have on hand if you'd like. Maracyn I and Maracyn II. Oh, also Stress Coat. API Stress Coat will help too.

Let me know if this plan agrees with you. I'll be checking back in early tomorrow morning. Don't worry, we'll get this licked in no time. Hang in there, input and Bud! 

Oh, and if you are able, any more pics of the stringy stuff would help. But don't worry if you can't, I totally understand. You've done a great job with the photos so far.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Bud is still a stud!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Input, I know you have a lot of live plants. Go get a little 2.5gal and an adjustable heater and set him up for QT. The daily water changes will be simple because you can just cup him and then dump the water. I put a log in my QT's to give him something to do as well as allow him somewhere to "go". Especially if your little guy is so active. Even if he doesn't really hide now, a log will give him his own bedroom, so to speak. Especially in such a small space. You'll be happy for the little QT tank!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is overall looking great. Active, eating, jumping out of the water, and made one of his larger bubble nests overnight.

His lip does not have the white string and is 80% less white than last night. The divot seems to be about 40% of his lower lip. I'm trying to get close looks but he is more active this morning...I'll try in an hour once he has burned off some energy. The major white you see in the pic I posted is not there, but the lip is a little light.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Getting better looks at Buds lip, it's a sizable wound, especially from a lower view, it appears a part of his lip is gone! (see pic). I would think if it was cotton mouth or something similar that it would look progressively worse? I put him in his travel cup so I can get an even closer look at him, and it looks like a wound. Doesn't like the cup AT ALL. But there's NO white. I'll put him back home and use aquarium salt to help prevent infections/disease. If I see something that freaks me out in a day or so, I'll get the meds.

I have a couple Amazon Swords and a Moss Ball in the tank. Do I remove the living plants?


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Good to hear it's a wound that you can easily care for..

Yes, remove any living plants before adding in any AQ salt. But remember you will have to do daily 100% water changes when using AQ salt.. so whether he likes it or not, it may be best to put him in a smaller container. The reason behind daily water changes is to prevent salt build up, as well as clean water is the best medicine when a fish is sick/hurt. Even a plastic 1gal "goldfish bowl" or a tupperware container.. You can put in a cave or cup, fake plant, something so it's not so empty while he's in there to help him relax a little. He'll freak out and be grumpy for a bit.. but you need to do what you need to do and he'll thank you in the end =)

Do as Sakura mentioned, the 3tsp of AQ salt and some stress coat. You probably don't have to do the full 10 days, but I'd wait to double check with Sakura. You may just have to do it for a few days to make sure it doesn't get infected.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Ok, I'll put him into a smaller space, but have it in his house primarily for temp control and ease of h2o changes.

I've gotten scrapped up a few times in life, but I don't remember anyone putting me in a small bowl with salt. Maybe no one cared enough


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is in a 3 gal white bucket with 2 gal water, 2 tablespoons aquarium salt, Stress Coat (healing dose which is x2), a few drops of Prime. Temp. dropping to 75-ish, and a log from his house so he's not too displaced.

A pissed little fish. He changed to a reddish-purple color, but his fins stayed bright blue. Never saw that before.

When I change his water daily, I'll cup him and get a good look at his mouth to see how it is.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

That sounds great. I hope for a speedy recovery for the little big guy!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, I'm very glad to hear it isn't columnaris. Yay! Continue with the salt treatment for at least 3 days, more if he'll stand it. Try not to let the temp drop below 75 because the colder temps will suppress his immune system. 

And don't worry, he'll forgive you. All you have to do is feed him.  Bettas will forgive anything if you feed him.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Sakura, for my own knowledge . . . since he's just fighting a wound and not columnaris, does he need the full 3 tsp (ie. 1 Tbsp) of AQ per gal? I would think he would do well with just 1 tsp per gal? Just want to know for my own future reference.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

flowerslegacy, yeah in most wound cases, 1 tsp per gallon is adequate but I'd like to keep Bud at the higher level just to make sure there is absolutely no trace of columnaris. Hope that helps you.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

OH! Okay, that makes sense. I thought I had under dosed Helen when I QT'd her for cloudy eyes - whew! See, this is why I always contact you when I have questions!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you, every one of you fish-nuts! Your help with Buds initial surprise, starting plants, and now his war wounds... Thank you. it's very important to
me that he is in a good place, and reading often doesn't quite paint the most clear picture so the forum is sooooo, valuable! I was pressed for time when I got him as well as his injury, stressful for me 

P.S.- I'm not a fish-nut, I just really, really like fish


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

*cough_fish-nut_cough*

:mrgreen:

I'm a little nutty.. and I love my fish.. does that make me a fish nut? :tease:

Wait.. do fishes even have n... never mind. 

*walks away whistling innocently*


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

hahahaha! Myates, you cracked me up! And Input . . . you're a total fish nut!! And now lovingly known as a betta slave


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud look's great today. All "whiteness/lightness" gone. Makes it hard to see the lip damage. Had some temp fluctuation in the bucket (76-69-78), try to stabilize 

I'm concerned the cycled tank get whacked out of balance without Buds poop. I'd call it "waste" like all of you say, but "poop" is a more fun word.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

You can put in a little bit of food while he is away if you wish.. people use that at times when cycling a tank to build up ammonia and such.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud health update:

Still in the salt bath isolation cell. His mouth is fine, there is a slight discoloration where the injury was. Bud is active, eating and seems to be the 'same old Bud'.

One item of concern:
On his very bottom fin, under his belly, there is a small hole in the fin. Not on the end/edges. Nothing white. Also, under his gill area, on his very bottom there is a tiny piece of fish skin, again maybe from jumping and hitting the side.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

EMERGENCY!!!

The hole in Buds bottom fin is bigger and has a slight amount of "material" around the edges. There is no white or light color at all. He otherwise looks and acts normal. He is still in salt bath. I am looking on site to see what the issue might be. It does not look like pictures of fin rot that I am looking at. For the most part the fin looks good and there is just a hole that has reached the edge, so it's not a hole any longer but a separation 

See red circle:


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Send Sakura a PM! I've been watching your posts but I have nothing to add that's helpful!!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm on it!

Thank you


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I can't imagine it's finrot, but this is what I just googled:
"Symptoms can include:
Small holes (pinholes) anywhere on the fins.
Fins that seem to be growing thinner or more transparent.
Fins that seem to be "fraying" around the edges.
Fins that seem to be breaking off in large chunks.
Slimey looking areas, usually on the tips of fins, that seem to "eat away" at the fins over time.

He could've had the beginnings of a bacterial issue when you got him. We never know how long our little guys sit in those gross little cups. I know that Columnaris is Sakura's main concern and both finrot and Columnaris are gram negative bacterial infections. I know that Maracyn II is a gram negative antiobiotic, but I'm not diagnosing! Just giving you some things to google while you wait for Sakura's response. I'm staying posted!!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm mobile, but am fully connected and can buy whatever is needed the moment I get a response.

His water temp. fluctuated between 70-78 for a couple days till I was able to stabilize it in his QT. It's my fault 

Maybe it is fin-rot...I found this on the intertoobs: 
It looks like the square on the left---


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I agree. I saw that pic too. Sounds like fin rot. Hopefully Sakura doesn't have a busy schedule today!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Buds fin problem has gotten a little bigger over the course of the day. I'm getting the Maracyn II.

Do I give it to him in a mixed drink cocktail or does he know how to do shots?

Increasing temp from 75 to closer to 80


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Okay. Here's all I know about the cocktail. . . You take a 5c pitcher and fill it with dechlorinated water. Add two packets of the Maracyn II and mix. I use a 2.5gal QT tank and that requires filling the tank w/dechlorianted water along with 2 1/2c of that medicine the first day. You throw out that cocktail. The next day, again 5c but only 1 packet. Again, 2 1/2 c. of medicine. Keep the remainder of that med and use it the following day too. Continue with 5c and 1packet for the rest of the 5 day treatment. If you have him in a smaller container then I'm at a loss. I suggest doing a post "search" under the Disease section and maybe search for the word "maracyn" and see if you can find other instructions on how to dose. That 's what I do. If Sakura PM's you and you guys start chatting behind the scenes, please keep me posted. I want to know that Bud pulls through!!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Oh yeah, I gave you this recipe based on the dosage for 10gal tanks.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Maracyn II---- 

The spot you see to the right of the damaged fin on his body is a scale that grew back. It's only visible because his color is washed out from the salt.

I will let you know if I hear from Sakura.









I'm sooo bummed  I thought he was ready to rock and roll, his mouth healed in 2 days I was keeping him in for a couple more to make sure no infection. Get fin rot while IN salt????


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Dang, he's a big guy! Fills up that cup. flowerslegacy, you were on the right track: Maracyn II. AQ salt can help reduce the risk of infection but not entirely eliminate it. Mostly AQ salt helps the fish to maintain their osmotic balance so they stay healthy enough to fight off infection on their own. So definitely Maracyn II. You can leave him 1 tsp of salt while he's being treated with Maracyn II. Also, it's a light-sensitive med so keep his tank dimly lit. Good luck! It doesn't look too bad and I think we've caught it before it can progress to anything serious.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yea!! Sakura is here!! I can relax now . . . Input, what size QT do you have? Sakura can better direct you on how to dose for a different size tank.

Wow he's HUGE! What a big handsome guy he is. Although I must say that he looks like he's giving you stink eye for having to QT him. "Grrrr, blanked-y blank blank, stupid cup, blank blank"


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I took Bud for a walk, but he didn't like the leash, or neighborhood dogs sniffing his vent. Bud now has a very low opinion of dogs. 

He is in a white 3 gallon plastic bucket, with 2 gallons (or slightly less water), heater, thermo, no light.

I got the Maracyn II and will have him hooked up in an hour. And I use 1 teaspoon of salt PER GALLON? He's been in 3 teaspoons per gallon for 6 days.

Thank you


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, yeah, let's go ahead and lower him to 1 tsp per gallon now while he's in medicine. We don't want to freak out his system. 

flowerslegacy, the directions for the Maracyn II work for all small tanks, it's just the amount of medicated water you use per gallon varies. It's a 1/2 cup per gallon of tank water, so for his 3 g, that would be . . . *hate math* 1 and 1/2 cups of medicated water.

Did you let him stop and sniff the flowers on his walk?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Did you let him stop and sniff the flowers on his walk?


He eats the caterpillars.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Happy boy.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is swimming in the drugs. I hope he likes it. I'll look at him in the morning, he's had a tough day and is in a dark cubby.

Thank you again.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud after about 20 hours in the drug cocktail and temp between 78-82. The missing fin area appears slightly larger, and a couple fin 'ribs' are now exposed since there is no fin left there. But there does not appear to be any 'stuff' or 'extra material' on the edges of the fin like there was yesterday. A much 'cleaner' appearance. I'm hoping the 'stuff' was decomposing fin or something of that nature, and maybe the majority has been killed off or mostly weakened so healing will start occurring. 

I decreased his salt to 1 teaspoon per gallon, but he is still washed out and only his fins are still blue. He is still jumping, eating, and inquisitive. He's gotta be bummed in a dim bucket that is covered.

Will change the water solution in a couple hours. This is a scary time. I'm very uncomfortable


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

He's washed out because he's sick and because of the chemicals he's sitting in - poor guy. As long as the light is dim and he's out of intense light than it's okay. Does he have something in the bucket with him ie. log, plant, something to get behind? He may not be much of a hider, but every betta loves a place to go sit behind (or in) if they're not feeling good. I put caves in my females tank last weekend and they both instantly disappeared into their new holes. I just got a new, big male plakat and he zoomed straight for his new log. When they're stressed, they like dark holes. BTW, I've laughed out loud a few times over Bud's "walk" with the neighborhood dogs. The visual of his face while a dog is sniffing his vent just *cracks me up*! I swear my little Ruby would rub the scales off her nose trying to jump through that hole to get a piece of that! Ha! I'm pulling for Bud. I know this really stinks for both of you. But he's active and eating and that is a GREAT sign that he's strong. It won't be long and it'll all be over!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud was blue until I put him in the first salt mix. I did that over about 3-5 mins, not suddenly. He's in a white bucket, but it's in a corner and covered 80% so it's dim/gray. I put 2 dark color little food bowls (from my parrot Smoochie) on their sides in the bucket. He only sleeps in them. He doesn't hide other than once lights are out.

I changed the mixture after 24 hours to the lighter ratio...took a close look at the fin damage....yuk.  I'll look again in the morning. What should I look for? I'm obviously expecting any further deterioration to be stopped by the morning (36 hours of treatment), but is there anything else good/bad that you know of that will give me an indication?

I gave Bud 4 bloodworms today, he was definitely in the mood for more of that good stuff!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

The bloodworms will help boost his immune system while he's healing. It won't hurt to give him worms exclusively while he's going through this horrible ordeal. Sakura can give you the details in regards to the fin regrowth and timeline.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

With fin rot, the fins may seem to be deteriorating even while in meds because the sick tissue is dying and falling off so new tissue can grow back. He may lose more of his fins before this is over. Look for clearish white growth at the tips of his fins and at any tear; that means new growth. Watch out for lots of thick dark black advancing rapidly toward his body. We want to keep the rot away from his body by any means.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bloodworms are the main course! If I unfreeze them, is it ok to have them in the refrigerator for a couple days?

Buds fin area looks the same, so I'm guessing that is good, the deterioration has more or less stopped? His actions are fine and looks good otherwise. He got a girls phone number this morning, so he's definitely still got game.

The box of Maracyn II was supposed to have 8 packets, but only had 2. Bud is in his 3rd day, and has enough for 4 more days. The fin rot started in the middle of the bottom fin and expanded up and down, separating his fin and touching his belly.

Questions: How long do I keep the salt (1 teaspoon per gal) and should I anticipate buying more Maracyn II?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I would go back to the store and get a new box of MaracynII. Someone opened it and took the other packets - you got short-changed. I had that happen once too. In regards to the salt: You shouldn't do AQ salt for more than 10 days. I know he sat in his brine bath for a few days prior to the meds, so once he completes the 10th day then stop. However, Sakura has the last say in all things medical. Standard direction is no salt beyond 10. Blood worms: I refrigerate my blood worms for a couple days at a time. I have lots of bettas though so I'm lucky enough to use an entire bubble without having to throw any away. You may have to toss the extra worms, depending on the size of bubble pack you got. I know there are different sizes of bubbles you can buy, so you may be able to find the smaller size with the smallest amount of waste possible. Sounds like he's doing good so far! I'm sure he'll be up-and-out on a date in no time!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

-Today is Buds 10th salty anniversary. Plan on no salt tomorrow am?
-Beginning the 4th day of Maracyn II, I have 3 days worth left of meds.
-His fins are not deteriorating that I can tell. It seems it may be arrested.
-The rot touched his body. 
-I hope the medical dose of Stress Coat is helpful.
-Temp hovers at 80F degrees in his dim Fortress of Solitude.
-He is just as active/lively as always.
-Bloodworms are from a tiny bubble pack, I'll cut block in half and thaw/refridge for about 2 days max to feed.
-I currently drive the Grey Ghost, a F250 4 door truck with an 8 cylinder. 10mpg city, 15mpg highway. Hardly worth driving 8 miles round trip for short-changed meds, I'm rarely in that part of town, it was a fluke I was there to get the meds in the first place. And Bud can't drive it, his fins don't reach the pedals. The reality


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sorry I'm late to the party, health issue. Sooo, okay. No salt, you are correct. 10 days is the max. How did the rot touch his body, is it pretty bad? Did it just reach his body and stop? 

And yes, I'd probably plan on more Maracyn II, especially if the rot advanced. But I'm glad his gorgeous fins haven't deteriorated more. A guy needs to look his best if he's on the prowl for girls. I bet Bud has a little black book full of girls' numbers. ;-)

Continue with the medical dose of Stress Coat.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Rot touched body and stopped there. No other visible signs.
He will go off salt diet tomorrow, but stay with the meds/high Stress Coat/80 degree/dim bucket/bloodworm diet.

Buds got it go'in on regardless of circumstances.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yup, he's one cool dude.  I'm glad the rot stopped and didn't advance. Whew!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Buds first day with no salt. His wound still looks the same. It looks clean and is not getting worse and no other fins are affected, so maybe it's actually a tiny bit better? His actions are as robust as ever. El Robusto!

I finally got the idea to cruise the forum and read about other members with fin rot. Very helpful! 5 years of higher education and I blanked out on that aspect. Too emotional perhaps.

The minute I think I see new growth/confirmed arrested fin rot, I'll finally go and pimp his tank. I've been tossing some food in to try and maintain the nitrogen cycle, but I haven't bothered to test the water. The brown algae still grows (silicates in the water?) Plants are fine, I wipe the brown algae off the leaves so they still get the light they need. I noticed their roots have grown like crazy.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Some stuff called cyanobacteria that looks like algae grows when there's high nitrates. Maybe that's the brown algae you're seeing. I had that problem a while ago, too. Hate the stuff.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Algea makes me go Grrrrr. Over on tropicalfishkeeping they call the brown stuff 'diatoms'. I have diatoms *and* cyanobacteria. The latter grew in my boys tank because the nitrites spiked to 5.0ppm when I was doing a fishless cycle. The cyanobacteria in my tank was green and grew like a sheet. It was easily sucked up in my syphon, but I caught it early. The best fight against algea is proper fertilizer dosages and keeping the lights down to 7 hrs/day. It's been working so far!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'll hopefully address the algae once Bud is back in the game. The bachelor pad must be immaculate as well as super-trick, girls expect nothing less. It's worked for me, it'll work for him. Not that he needs any help. 

I want to use an RO system, I think that will do good job with the algae and maybe even Buds overall health. I doubt it will have any effect on the plants.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If you use an RO, be aware you may have to get supplements to add in nutrients to the water. RO makes the water softer but it also takes out vitamins and minerals that the water actually needs. 

My LFS guy told me a double dose of Seachem Flourish Excel can clear up algae but I'm not 100% sure on that. Your tank is big enough you could add in some amano shrimp, nerite snails, or otocinclus to take care of the algae.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yup, Sakura's correct on the RO. I was also directed to double-dose w/Seachem Flourish as well. I don't know much about the 'excel', although I do know it's slightly different than the regular Flourish. Also, I "googled" over on tropicalfishkeeping and here's what I found about the algea. I'm quoting Byron, who is a fantasticly awesome fish keeper who is so knowledgable about aquatics, live plants, chemical make ups and all things science, that it's almost scarey. He's just incredible. Anyway, here's what he says about the 'brown algea':
"Light should be on a timer so it is controlled and regular. Diatoms (brown algae) is usually seen in new tanks for a period, but when it occurs later in established tanks it is said to be caused by low light and/or excess silicate acids. The usual fix is to increase the light (intensity and/or duration). Of course, too much light causes green algae. Algae is really not "bad" except when it covers live plant leaves since this can kill the leaf/plant. Algae is, like live plants, simply using the organics and light to create a better environment for the fish. A substrate would also help. Organics feed algae. A shallow substrate of fine gravel or even sand would allow organics to settled into it and bacteria could then do its work. Live plants rooted in the substrate would also help immensely. Finding the balance is the key. I would have the light on for 6 hours daily, timed for when you are most likely to be there to enjoy the aquarium. And some live floating plants would be beneficial to use the organics. Floating plants are easy, since they are close to the light so that is less of a concern, they assimilate CO2 from the air, and they grow fast and thus use nutrients quickly. Also, your Betta loves floating plants, it is their natural environment, plant-thick swamps and ponds and ditches."


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Excel adds carbon for those planted aquariums that don't have C02 devices. I'm not sure why the double dose of carbon would kill algae. *shrugs* As far as the algae on my plants went, my LFS talked me into otos and they had the plants looking green literally overnight.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud does not have the black sand yet, just 2 pieces of African/Malaysian driftwood, a moss ball, and a few African Swords in cups with aquarium gravel. So the environment is not in its complete stage. Maybe the algae will change once the black sand is in. I have a 20 pound bag, but may not use all of it (depth). I hope the environment we planned will not be bad for Buds health. I'm not sure about the plants in the black sand either, I've looked at the roots in the cups and they have grown tremendously....but all this pondering takes a back seat to Bud getting his mojo back. Maybe just toss the plants in the sand and see how they fare? Maybe they will be fine?

I wouldn't mind a critter or two in the tank that would eat algae


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

For sword plants, you'll need some fairly deep substrate because they spread out a lot of roots and are big plants. If not, as they get bigger, they uproot themselves or the roots start poking out of the substrate. You could always leave the swords in their cups and just plonk the cups in the sand. That works too. 

Thing I learned about sand: stir it up at least once a month. Otherwise it develops pockets of toxic gases. I didn't know that and my sand literally went bad. Pure white sand turned a nasty dark gray and two of my cory cats died when they hit landmines of toxic gas.  They were just scuttling along as cory cats do, hit the pockets and boom, they were goners. I still feel so bad about them.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

20 pounds of sand will be a couple inches deep I believe. I'm thinking about getting small 3" diameter black cups as an option and using black gravel in them, that might limit the plants from getting too out of control sized.

Stir the sand not a problem. That is one hell of a story though  Yikes! A thin stick once a week through the sand can happen.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Wow Sakura - landmines in our tanks - yoinks! I just have gravel but it's good to know for future tanks. I plan on doing sand when I set up my gobie tank. If you plan on doing any floaters, Brazilian Pennywort is great. All my bettas love it. It's easy to grow and once it takes off it's prolific. Lots to spread around or share with your other tanks. Personally I love wisteria, but it requires a lot of light. I'm replacing all of my bulbs w/6000kh to keep the rest of mine alive and well. They're floaters too, if you wish. My betta tanks all have pennywort and wisteria and they love, love, love them. However, both Pennywort and Wisteria can't be too deep in sand - they'll suffocate. They actually prefer gravel so the water can move between their roots and allow them to breathe.


----------



## Moon (Jul 4, 2011)

I think its fungus if u ask me


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has (maybe) a single, clear 1/2 ray growing. Does that sound right/possible?
All his other fins look ok, he's as active as ever.

I've been reading and noting others with fin rot...sure wish I had read all that info before...Buds problem seems very minor compared to others that are much more dramatic. Can fin rot be very minor and isolated? All the others I've noticed are very extreme, almost different than Buds issue.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Sounds like his fins are growing back! They start off clear. I've never experienced fin rot or fin re-growth but I've read a lot about it through this forum. I know Sakura can explain in more detail, but that's good news! I believe you caught the rot in the very, very beginning. You had him AQ salt before the issue even had a chance to advance. Most folks post their rot issues when they're more advance and need a lot more assistance. In regards to fungus, the treatment is the same. Maracyn II is used for both fin issues - either fungal or bacterial.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Maybe tomorrow it will be more evident. The rot had touched his body  but it's definitely not getting worse. I'm looking at pics I took 2 days ago and there is no further deterioration. I'm still pretty bummed. Will need to get more Maracyn II tomorrow as well.

I'll super-pimp his tank finally in a few days. It'll be a nice house warming for him


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, I think you caught the rot in time.  It sounds like the bacteria that is causing the rot is fast-moving but not very aggressive because it did advance to his body but it hasn't eaten off everything like other rots. I remember one case that was so bad the owner took the betta to the vet for antibiotic shots. Sadly, the rot won. It was really resistant to all treatment we threw at it. Fortunately, Bud's case is nice and mild and he should be back to his awesome self in no time. 

Fin growth is clearish white at the edge of the tears and new growth can literally occur overnight. It's remarkable how fast fins grow. 

I have wisteria too but what you said, flowerslegacy, explains why the wisteria that is floating in one tank is doing so much better than the wisteria that is planted deep in the sand. I didn't know that about wisteria.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

All my plant knowledge I learned from Bryon over on tropicalfishkeeping. He reccomended the wisteria, water sprite and pennywort due to my high ph. Plus, I'm not very experienced in the world of live plants and they're easy, great starters. Especially in gravel. I killed almost all of my wisteria due to low light. It requires a higher light intensity, not a longer duration. So if it sits under a standard bulb with low intensity, it can sit all day and it won't make a difference. If you have a higher intensity then it'll thrive. I read that anything between 6000 and 7000kh is ideal. However, the wisteria in the boys tank is growing like crazy because it's in wonderful, natural light. The boys just love it. It's pretty too. But when I do water changes and it comes loose, it can float around on top without any issues. All my bettas rush to the floaters to slithers around on them so I'm never in a hurrt to re-plant them.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> But when I do water changes and it comes loose, it can float around on top without any issues. All my bettas rush to the floaters to slithers around on them so I'm never in a hurrt to re-plant them.


Sounds fun!!!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

They're crazy fish! I have a couple of rock formations in their tank too. The first time I did a water change I thought Cassius was trapped on top with no water. I panicked!! Nope. He was basking and slithering. I've watched him hang out on that perch now every week I do a water change.

ps That's Cassius in my avatar


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is definitely healing, the clear/white is more than last night, but it is a ray and some side tissue. It looks building, not destroying...make sense?

How long do I keep the Maracyn II? I need to buy more today since I got shorted originally. Is there anything else I need to be on the lookout for?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

The dosing directions on the MaracynII is a 5-day treatment. It states you can continue for one more 5-day treatment, but I'd get the okay from Sakura if you wanted to go that route. It sounds like he's doing well. The rot has arrested and the ray is growing back. Hopefully he can be done with the bucket and go back home.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Oooops again.

I'll take a super-close-up-view and see how things stand, maybe a pic if I can get one good enough to post. I think I have enough Maracyn II for 6 days since I used a 2 gallon unit even though I only had 2 packets.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Since you've only had two packets, how much medicine did you use to dose him? Just curious. I want to make sure he received the proper high-level dosages. I'm sure that would be a factor on how long you may need to continue the meds.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Since he's healing up, I'd wait and give him some time in clean water before considering a second course of treatment. Just like in humans, too much medicine isn't good either because the fish can build up immunities to it.

Cassius looks good, floating like a . . . betta, stinging like a . . . betta. =p Well thaaat didn't go so well.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

hahahaha, Sakura that was great! Exactly why he's named Cassius. You should see him dance around his bloodworm. "I'm so pretty, I'm so pretty"


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I love his little face.  Ah, dancing bettas. So much fun.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud had about a half packet the first day, and a quarter packet since then. I have a total amount for 7 days. Today ends his 6th day. He is in 2 gallons, I think the dosing works out for 2.5 gallons. 

Perhaps I should test his bachelor pad water and put him in tonight. I'm looking closely at the 2 rays, they are clear and have an odd whitish-yellow, almost looks like tiny little bubbles on them. I can see how it looks like this might be growth.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

It sure sounds like he's doing well. Plus, the positive effects of the dosing can continue to show up over the next week. Since his rot was caught so soon, he may just need one treatment. I'm sure he'll be happy to get out of that bucket. Don't expect too sleep much tonight - I'm sure he'll have the music up way too loud until the wee hours of the morning.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'll pull him out mid-morning Thurs. I didn't have time to do a major water change/warm/test his bachelor pad. Another 12 hours in the drug soup shouldn't hurt.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Nope, it shouldn't. He's probably quite disappointed. Might even TP your house in retaliation.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

He'll be even more disappointed since I STILL didn't put the black Tahitian sand in his domain yet. Been dragging my feet ever since he got sick. I have some hard water stains on the outside of the tank I need to remove with vinegar (had the stains when I got the tank used). Geeee, you'd think I didn't care....


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oooh, the TP could escalate into egging your car too. I can see why you'd drag your feet. You'll have to rinse that sand thoroughly in a bucket so it doesn't cloud things up. Could take a couple of back-breaking hours at least to get the water to run clear.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm as tough as the next guy, if not a little tougher, so no worries about the bucket-water-rinse-escapade although it certainly will be boring I'm sure. I may only put in half the sand, and the other half several days later just to break it up. My only concern now is the plant roots may not do well, so I plan on keeping them in little bird feeding bowls


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That sounds like an idea. Your plants probably will grow in the sand but they may not grow as fast. But keeping them in containers limits the root spread. I want pics of Bud's pad when it's all finished.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Hmmm, at this point I don't care if they grow, as long as they don't die or are sickly. I only have 3 Amazon Swords at this point, I'm waiting to add the black sand to the African and Malaysian driftwood pieces then add a couple more that go up to the top, since his pad is 18" tall, with an Eclipse hood (which I like, but is pretty big and imposing).

Pics in a week or two.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If they're Amazon Swords, they should do just fine if you plant them straight into the sand, too. Before you do, take some scissors and trim the roots off at the base, leaving about 1/4 inch. The roots will grow back and trimming them makes it easier to plant and healthier too (this way you aren't trying to stuff all the roots into the substrate).


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you for that info. I'll go ahead and do that. I'm tired of the little bowls  and, Bud needs to impress 

I'll address the growing roots in the sand as I (weekly) drag a stick to turn the sand over. I'll get a few other plants that will work with that substrate as well.

Vacuuming will be a different issue. When I had mbunas, I used crushed coral, so I've never had to concern myself with the sand getting sucked up.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hover the the vacuum over the sand. You should get most of what you need to suck up. You might suck up some sand every now and then. I do. You can also stir the sand up, wait a few minutes to see if the filter picks anything up, and then vacuum/hover. 

Bud needs the little bowls to put peanuts in when he has his pals over for the big game.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has 3 or 4 small rays and they have a little material around them. There was nothing before, so this is unquestionably new growth. He'll be in bucket all day uncovered so he gets light, and go into his tank tonight.

Such a crazy time!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yay for Bud!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Back in the saddle again.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yea!!! He's blue again! He looks great against your black sand. Go Bud!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud made this while I was gone. I hope this is an indicator of good things for him.









Unfortunately today is the saddest day ever. My little buddy of 10 years, Smoochie Doodle, passed away suddenly at the vet hospital last night. I am absolutely crushed.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Glad to hear about the stud!
I'm so sorry for your loss =( I understand the pain, I had grown up around different types of birds and parrots and it's so easy to bond with them. Poor fella.. He was very cute and I bet a sweetie.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Smoochie is my family. This had no warning, unexpected. I'm not doing very well


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I can imagine just how devastated and crushed you are right now.. I wish there were some magic words to help you feel better. Sending my best wishes and thoughts your way, Smoochie is at peace and he knew he was very well loved.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you. I'm going to bury him in Point Lobos State Park. It is overlooking the Pacific Ocean with pines and cypress trees. A spectacular view.

I hurt so much. I feel hollow  I've not cried this much as an adult male...since the 90's.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Aww.. that is a beautiful area, he will have some wonderful sunsets to give him a kiss goodnight at the end of each day. 

*hug*


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry about Smoochie, input. He was a beautiful bird and I can see the intelligence and personality in his eyes. You have my deepest sympathies on your loss. 

On a different note, Bud looks awesome.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input, I'm so sorry. No words for such a loss of a good friend. You can see in eyes that he was secure, happy and knew that he was very loved. I can't imagine the broken heart you're dealing with - so so sorry. Especially the fact that it was sudden and unexpected. Point Lobos is a gorgeous place. Perfect place for a perfect family member. Bud is a lucky guy - obviously in a spectacular home. His bubble nest is an indicator. Sincerest sympathies to you.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Tonight Bud has a tiny spot right behind his new growth on his same bottom fin that might be fin rot. If it is, I'll know for sure in the morning. Does that sound like something that would happen?

I'll go purchase another box of Maracyn II. Will I put him in the bucket and do the same thing (salt, Maracyn II, 80 degrees, medical dose of Stress Coat)? He currently still has the medical dose of Stress Coat and the temp 78-80 in his tank and about 80%+ bloodworms. Also his tank managed to stay cycled and is less than 10ppm nitrates and I changed 1/3 of the water every 2 days.

His actions are as active as ever, even more so. He is jumping 4-5 times in a row when feeding. Entirely out of the water. Never seen anything like it.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

A pic will help. Hopefully it isn't fin rot. I'm glad he's still active.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I thought I would share this with anyone that may ever visit the Monterey/Carmel California area. Since I found the spot to place Smoochie at Point Lobos State Preserve. I took a couple pics, it is a spectacular place with seals, otters, gulls and other wildlife. Stunning. I put Smoochie about 8 paces from a walking path that has a cedar bench overlooking the Pacific ocean. There are several miles of easy, maintained walking paths, restrooms, maps. You walk along cliffs, tide pools with star fish and crabs. You see and hear hundreds of seals on seal island and birds on bird island. You'll see some fish too! 

Looking south:







Looking west (as the sun was setting):







Looking north:







This is exactly where one of the benches is:


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> A pic will help. Hopefully it isn't fin rot. I'm glad he's still active.


I tried to photo, but I think Bud is experimenting with crack. Can't photo close enough and still enough. I'll keep trying. In the morning I'll look with a magnifying glass and try to photo again if I can't tonight.

If it's fin rot (still/again) I guess that's pretty bad?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, that is absolutely beautiful. No bird could ask for a better resting place than where you have laid Smoochie to rest. I haven't been to Monterey yet but I intend to go sometime very soon. I will try to visit where Smoochie is if I do.

Most bettas laze about all day . . . until you get the camera out. And then suddenly they have as much energy as a danio. 

It depends on what the spot looks like and how bad it is. It might not necessarily be rot. If it is, then it just means we didn't get all of it the first time but we sure will the second time. For now, the Maracyn that he is in will help but since you have live plants, no AQ salt. He'll have to go (reluctantly) into the bucket if it comes to that point. But I don't think it will.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is not in Maracyn II anymore. He did his 6 day stint. He's been out for about 2 days or so.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Beautiful area.. you did wonderfully =)

Poor Bud. Like Sakura said, it may not be rot. Did you do a water change prior to putting him back in his tank? 
Otherwise, I would just do a tad bit more water change (% wise) when you do your normal water changes for now until you can verify whether it is rot or not. The best way to fight/prevent is clean water, so upping it a tad won't hurt him.

A trick- hold your camera in one hand, a piece of food in the other.. then hold the food just above the water surface and while he is sitting there, contemplating whether it's worth it to jump for the food, you can snap a couple pics. 
And yes, he will decide to jump =P


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I did a 95% water change before returning him to his pad and two 30% water changes in less than 4 days. Tested water and its 0 ammonia/0 nitrite/less than 10 nitrate at the highest. I'll cup him and get pic this am. I may need to look at a past photo to compare.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I looked at previous photos for comparison. The circle areas are new. Taking Bud outside with a magnifying glass I can see a tiny amount of dark material around the new missing fins areas. The new growth area has no further improvement.

Putting him in the cup stresses him and he loses his blue.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I've put Bud back into the 2 gallon bucket with the initial 1/2 packet of Maracyn II and the medical dose of Stress Coat and 80 degrees and bloodworms.

Should I use aquarium salt again?

I assume I cut the Maracyn II dose in half tomorrow as I did previously?

Was I supposed to use something on his bachelor pad to get rid of the nasties in their?

Should I do anything else? He's looking/acting great otherwise.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Poor Bud must be so confused about why he keeps moving to a bucket. Go ahead and use the half-dose of Maracyn II and let's skip the AQ salt this time. I'm concerned that too much time spent in it will do more harm than good. I'm glad he's acting normally and keeping his spirits up. I'm also a bit worried about the appearance of his old fin rot spot. It should have had more growth by now. Hopefully another treatment of Maracyn II will work. Otherwise, we'll give him a few days off from medicines and then try something stronger like Kanaplex. 

His bachelor pad should have been fine without any sterilization. Most bacteria will die without anything to feed on, like a fish fin.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm installing some wireless night vision cameras. I have suspicions Bud is hosting some late night parties with the local ladies. I think he's partying till he drops.

That would explain the mysterious charges on my credit cards.

I'll catch him in the act and see what he has to say.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Hmm.. I may have missed the fin rot problem, as I can't recall it. But I do have to say that his tail (in pic 2) is in a shape that is telltale that he may have chased his tail and took a nip from it. But that is just me, the shapes are too much like a fin biter rather then ripping or rotting. It's the perfect shape of a mouth.

That's not to say that he doesn't have rot, but to me it looks more like he is biting rather then rotting. And biting could easily have come about from being upset at being put in a bucket for treatment for his mouth. It would be Bud's way of being a puppy and leaving you "surprises" in your slippers.. 

I'm with Sakura though in that I worry about overly medicating. But continue what she recommended and go from there.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

The tiny white spot on Buds lip it completely gone this morning. The fin areas that had some 'material'....the 'material' is gone. (rear fin, under bottom fin, top of top fin) and his old injury may have growth again this morning.

He is the same old Bud, no change in his behavior.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yay for Bud =)

I read back on some of your thread and if you want my personal opinion.. it isn't rot. 3-4 days ago on the last set of pictures you had, his fins were pretty much perfect. You noticed a little "material" around a few rays.. which I'm thinking that it sounds more like a little excess slime coating versus rot. As most rot is black edging that is flaking/shredding off. 
They will create extra slime coating when warding something off, whether it be chemistry related, or sickness, possibly even from stress. I would dare to guess that with the changes and medications, he produced a little more slime coating to give him a bit more protection from the medication and that is what you saw, it shedding off. And since it disappeared, I would say that is even more of a reason to think it was just slime coating as that usually clears up after a couple water changes.
The pictures you posted 3 days ago his fins looked really good, almost perfect. And the pictures you just posted had C & U shapes to them which is the size and curvature of their mouths.. which is the indicator of tail biting. He may have been bored/stressed and decided to chomp on himself. 

Those are just my thoughts on him, since to me it seems unlikely that the rot had actually formed while in treatment, and be that aggressive in such a short time after.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

With that info, I will take another look in cup in sunlight and magnifying glass...

But the white spot disappeared so I feel vindicated on that front.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

That is a good sign it disappeared, you did a good job helping him =)

But most rot is black to very dark (bloodied) edges on the fins, with the blackened edges fraying/shredding/flaking off. A straight cut edge with no black edging isn't fin rot. If it's a straight line, it means he either ripped it on something in his tank, or using a net split it and it usually fuses back together after a few days. A C or U shape on the edges is usually a bite. Sometimes it can be a V as well, just means he didn't bite his teeth all the way through and instead bit and pulled.
If his fins look colored and good (other then the missing pieces) then I wouldn't treat him with anything. Good, clean water (your normal water changes should be fine since you have live plants) will help him heal properly without worrying about rot forming. Rot only forms in dirty, unkept water for the most part. API Stress Coat will help the regrowth of fins, along with a high protein diet.

*Going to clarify a little bit here - there are actually 2 different types of fin rot:
Fin rot can be the result of a bacterial infection (Pseudomonas fluorescens, which causes a ragged rotting of the fin), or as a fungal infection (which rots the fin more evenly and is more likely to produce a white 'edge'). Sometimes, both types of infection are seen together. Infection is commonly brought on by bad water conditions, injury, poor diet, or as a secondary infection in a fish which is already stressed by other disease. Fin rot starts at the edge of the fins, and destroys more and more tissue until it reaches the fin base. If it does reach the fin base, the fish will never be able to regenerate the lost tissue. At this point, the disease may attack the fish's body directly.

He didn't have white edges (which looks different then new growth), nor did he look to have the dark black/brown/bloodied edges. 

I'm sorry if I am stepping on Sakura's toes, as she has been the main helper here. I just wanted to throw that out in case she missed it or something.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh Myates, no worries at all. I am all for anyone seeking second opinions or getting extra advice. The more heads involved on a problem, the better.  

The only thing that made me hesitate with suggesting tailbiting is my own unfamiliarity with king/plakat bettas. Do or can they tailbite? If Bud had been a longfin betta, that would have been my first thought. Ah, I learn something new every day from this forum.

Thankfully, Myates is right, the white on Bud's tail isn't the type of bad fin rot. I've seen cases like that and they're pretty nasty.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi guys, I'm completely curious and following Bud's rot journey . . . On post #120, photo number 2, Input circles a new chunk missing from his anal fin. If it's tail biting, could he nip his anal fin? Just curious. I know he has him in the Maracyn soup again. Do you guys suggest he continue the treatment or put him back in the stud pad?


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It would be harder to bite their fins as they are short.. but I believe it is possible as I've seen one of my boys curl up into a tight "ball" when he is hiding in his cave. His mouth very close to his back end at the starting point of his tail fin. So I am imagining that Bud could have curled up in/next to something resting and took a bite out of his fins then. Unsure though just how flexible Bud's type is though, now that I am thinking about it.. hmm.. 

I've spent the last 15 minutes trying to find anything on whether plakats/kings are known/able to tail bite- but so far no luck. I'm going to keep looking though. It just odd how most of those missing pieces are just the right shape of his mouth if he can't do it.

Bud definitely is one crazy fish 

Hi Flower! =)
I believe the anal fin at the back end would be easy to get as they tend to be a little longer. All he needs really is just a tiny bit to hold onto and either bite down or yank. Laying down against the substrate with the fin laying flat down, I could see him grabbing at it. 

I am unsure whether or not he should finish out the treatment, since I have never used that medication, unsure if it would be okay to stop mid treatment. Otherwise, I would say it should be fine if he went back into his home now.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thanks Myates! I know this isn't my thread, but I feel like it is since we all have been following Bud for such a long time. I agree - his tail looks like mouth chunks. Input already did one full treatment of MaracynII and he just started a new treatment based on the new fin damage. I was just a little confused by the last couple of posts between you and Sakura. Did you guys assume some of the rot returned or not?? Was it just tail biting or was there other damage that may still be rot? Input started the new treatment assuming it had returned.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

hehe I understand how sometimes it is easy to love another's little fishy even if it's just pictures and words on a pc lol.

I believe we both agreed that it doesn't look like any form of rot, neither the fungal or the bacterial form. But we are still questioning whether or not if Bud is flexible enough to bite it since he is a king Plakat, and much larger then others.

He is currently doing half a dose, but since it is medicine, I am unsure if it would be okay to stop in the middle of the treatment or not. Since I am not that familiar with that type of med since I never had to use it, I rather wait to see what Sakura says on that front since she is more knowledgeable of it. I just know the basics of what it does and doesn't do heh.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

You got it. Just wanted to double check and make sure I didn't miss something. Thanks Myates!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

The original underside damage (#1) and the second spot right behind it (#2) that is new, there is no way Bud does enough yoga to get to those spots. The initial damage started as a hole. There was the cruddy material on those spots as well, but NOTHING as pronounced as some of the photos I've seen. It also seemed to "rot away" after 2-3 days. The clear rays that formed are now gone. Damage on #3, #4 occurred at the same time. There was/is a slight amount of dark around the edges of #4. #3 is not fanned out in this photo (is does look like a bite when it is fanned out) and has slight white/yellow where the arrow is pointing.

I just realized I never mentioned he is missing his left ventral fin. I don't know how or when that happened. I remember thinking about it as I was typing, but I'm fairly messed up with missing Smoochie and have had a hard time remembering things the last several days 

TOTAL DAMAGE:
1-initial on bottom fin
2-second on bottom fin
3-rear fin
4-top fin
5-left ventral fin 

6-spot on mouth

This is dramatic.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Through the diligent explanations from Sakura re: my own betta health issues, MaracynII is used for gram-negative bacteria. Perhaps his certain strain of rot is gram-positive. If that's the case, then Sakura mentioned Kanamycin in a previous post. She will need to direct you though - I'm just posting for informative reasons. Input, go ahead and check ebay and look for a drug named "Kanaplex". I just purchased some myself, for my little blind guy who is fighting some sort of pop-eye. Anyway, you only need to purchase 5grams and it only costs about $6. I purchased mine from a place called "justphish" and they got it to me right away. He won't need more than 5 grams because that will allow you a 6 day treatment, which is all he can withstand. At least be prepared if Sakura directs you down that path. I looked all over our area and no one sold Kanaplex. Perhaps a specialty LFS in the City?? But I couldn't find any in the East Bay. Perhaps he had some rot already, if he was missing a ventral. Just a guess, but that makes sense as to why he has rot issues now. Obviously your husbandry isn't what caused it.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud had his left ventral, I didn't notice at what point it got damaged.

The water should be reasonably ok as far as the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, temp, and conditioning.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Okay, I take back what I said earlier.. seeing a more detailed, up close picture they don't look to be fin biting. *Maybe* the one on the tail, but the rest is not it.. I'd go with what Flowers had said and see if you should try the positive one. Just hate to put him through so much. Wondering if it's possible to just go the AQ salt route, if it's less abrasive for the poor guy.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yeah, he's been through a lot. Sakura decided against the AQ because he'd already stewed in it for 10 days at the beginning of all of this. First it was AQ, then it was Maracyn II for 6 days. Marcacyn I is also used for gram positive bacteria, but the Kanaplex is prescription strength. If he has to go through all of this, might as well as use the "big guns" and get it over with. We'll see what Sakura thinks at this point, since he's sitting in the Maracyn II right now.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Whoa. Those are some good, detailed pics, Input. Very helpful. The worst damage I see is the original spot, #1, because he has nothing left at all, just a big blank spot. It looks like someone took a board out of a fence. I'm concerned that it hasn't shown any new growth at all, not even a little. Also, has his anal and caudal fins always looked fused together? I don't think that's a problem, it's just not something you see often. I do see a bit of black on the tear in his anal fin but fortunately, I don't see his fins just disintegrating away. It seems like he has a slow-moving but very resistant form of fin rot. It's possible it started out as a fungal attack but then became afflicted with a secondary bacterial infection. You often see both forms of fin rot together. 

Flowers is on the right track.  I think, if you can, you should order some Kanaplex and we'll go ahead and treat him with that. I feel that treating him with Maracyn I would be the equivalent of treating pneumonia with Robitussun when he needs penicillin. I believe the dosage is 1 tsp per 10 gallons so I'll have to work out some math on dosing for a smaller tank/bucket. In the meantime, stop treatment with the Maracyn II. It clearly isn't working and I'd like to give the big guy some time in clean, non-medicated water before we bombard him with the Kanaplex. You can go ahead and put him back in his bachelor pad and give him plenty of bloodworms and high-proteins. I know you'll take care of the rest, like cleaning up the pad after Bud's wild parties. 

Hang in there, Input.

Myates and Flowers, thank you so much for your help.  We're Bud's expert medical team.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

You are all *TEAM BUD*

I'm glad you are all on board. You understand Bud is a brand. Just like Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. Bud is "Americas Fish". He's famous for being famous. We can't expand his reach internationally until this health thingy is licked for good. He can't tour on half a fin. I mean really, who will buy half a designer fish outfit? And the parties. Admittedly he's coasting on his reputation here in the U.S., but when he's in Prague, Bud will have to raise his game. 

*GO TEAM BUD!*


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

ROFL omg...

Yeah, those new pics changes the game completely, so glad he stood still long enough for you to do it. Did ya have to sedate him? I wish mine stood still >.<

Right now I'm on the team, but I'll just be the cheerleader since my knowledge in most medication is very limited when it gets to be time for the big stuff. 

So rah rah shish boom bah go Team Bud!!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Since I just got Kanaplex myself, I'll tell you how it works. The tube it comes in has the meds in loose powder form. The lid comes w/an applicator attached to it. It's a small spoon. The dosage is one level spoon per 5gals. Since I have my little guy in a 2.5gal, I use 1/2 a spoon. First, I scoop out the drug, then I use a toothpick to level it out. Then I use the same toothpick to scoop away the excess until I have 1/2 a spoon. You're supposed to dose him and then let him sit in the soup for 2 days. Do a 100% water change and repeat the same dosage. You can do this 3x for a treatment of 6 full days. Again, he has to be in dim light. Input, I'm assuming you'll be treating him in your 2gal bucket so that's why I reccomended the 5gram bottle. It's plenty for the small QT that he'll be in during treatment. Myates, you continue to make me laugh out loud!!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I called around a bit, no success on local Kanaplex. I'm looking on flea-bay to see who can get it to me the soonest. Putting Bud in the bachelor tank just in time for lunch.

5 grams it is...

Ordered from a seller in Sacramento with a note to please send ASAP, I figure it may get here sooner that from Connecticut.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I hope that lady in Sacto sends your product right away. I saw her on ebay too and she was my first choice based on her location. I had sent her an email, asking if she had the product in stock, and she never replied to me. That's when I went to CT to purchase it. If she doesn't send it to you right away, let me know. I'll send you what I have left over. I know it won't take more than a day from the East Bay!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I saw that the estimated date I would receive it would be Monday, so I went for it. If it is incorrect and it's a long term deal, she'll get negative feedback. You don't offer something in 4 days if it takes 10 because you don't have it. Grrrr

I don't know what else to do. Bud will go back into his pad once it heats up, it went down to 65 degrees last night so it's taken several hours to bring 15 gals up to 78-ish to re-introduce him. That's with a 100 watt heater.

Just checked eBay confirmation and now it's stating the 8-9th Tues-Wed. I'm not happy at all. Stated Monday previously.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Send her an email through ebay and see if she responds. I know what you mean - if someone is going to sell fish meds then they need to understand that it's a rush order! I'm happy to send you mine. I have more than enough left over for a 6 day treatment in a 2 gal. Feel free to PM me an address that you're comfortable with ie. work, p.o. box, etc. I can have it in the mail to you tomorrow morning.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, what seller in Sacto? I looked everywhere too. Is it a store or just a local person with a spare bottle?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Ladylshop on ebay, a store.

I just got in and put Bud in his home. His tail fins are not looking good. There is a pin hole and another what appears to be a bite. I'm getting very upset.

I'll send her an email right now to see what can happen. If anyone knows how I can find some for tomorrow, I'll do what I need to get it.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I'm willing to meet you somewhere, even at a Bart Station if that's easiest for you - you pick: Orinda, Lafayette, Walnut Creek or Pleasant Hill. I know the desperation . . . I had time to wait for my little guy but I know that you're in a more critical place with him.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I can't believe it would take that long to send a small bottle from Sacramento to Monterey. What is that lady thinking?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

No response yet. It's probably a part time, or low stress business model for extra income.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

She *never* responded to me. I sent a simple email asking her, "Do you have the meds in stock? I just want to make sure before purchasing." Nothing. I'm a big ebay seller and it's obvious when you receive questions from buyers. I was shocked that she never responded. Especially when your feedback score is so important to your business as a seller. Sorry Input, I should've mentioned her in my initial post but I didn't think about it. Hopefully we'll get these meds to you quickly.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Hpmpf. I'm not a fan. The customer service is not there, which is what this purchase was about. 

Look who's-in-the-Kanamycin soup.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Wow! His poor finnage. Good thing you have him stewing in the "hard stuff". Poor guy. but his medical pad looks great and he's sure to recover. GO BUD!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Typical white sterile environment with some loud decorations to perk it up. And, they are Team Bud colors (blue, red, purple).

Back in the day when I wore ties, I would buy equally loud colors. Not always a hit at the conservative law firm I was with. But what could they do, fire me? Oops....yes...


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, I'm glad you were able to get the Kanamycin. His fins definitely don't look so hot now so the prescription strength antibiotics should really help to knock out the rot. You're doing an awesome job with him. 

*Yay! Go Bud!*


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> *Yay! Go Bud!*


Nice


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has taken a beating. The good news: His old spot #1 has stopped deteriorating, as has #2. They both look clean with no marginal material at all. The fins look good up to the point they are missing. Spots #3 on his tail seem clean as well, a bit harder to tell as Bud was pretty pumped up in the cup tonight. The bad news: Spot #4 on his top fin showed some rays and has some material on it. I believe it deteriorated since last night. Also, he is holding his left swimming fin (clamped?) to his body and uses it very little, and it shows some light damage. This was not the case last night.

He is in 2 gallons of 80 degree water with 2ml Stress Coat, and 1/2 spoon of Kanaplex in a white bucket with a dark towel over it. He has a couple cups to hide in. Eating mostly bloodworms with a couple betta pellets here and there. I did not leave him in the same treatment water for the last 2 days as instructed, I water changed 100% after the first and second 24 hour period. Bud is starting his 3rd 24 hour period with his 3rd batch of medicated water. Perhaps I should leave him for 48 hours in the same treatment?

Still, Bud is charging and eating like a fool in paradise.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

48 hours without a water change won't hurt him so you could leave him in the mix without changing the water. I definitely see the rays on spot #4. I'm not 100% surprised that there's still some deterioration going on. Most likely, we'll see some more fin loss before it stops completely because the dead (necrotic) tissue will fall off before new fin grows back. So he may lose more of his fins before things start to come around again. As long as there are no rapidly advancing black edges, red spots, or a loss of appetite. Keep it up, Bud, you're doing great fighting this off! Rah rah rah!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Poor Bud. Stressed, striped and gnawed to the bone. He looks a little battered but I'm confident that he's on the final stretch. Keep it up Bud! Hang in there buddy! Team Bud doesn't expect your first born, but we all want a pick from the first fry. This guy is sturdy!! GO BUD! GO! GO! GO!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Poor guy, but he is very lucky to have a caring owner like you!

I was so bored this morning.. (ignore the.. well.. everything about it lol.. *goes to look for more funny cheerleading pics*)


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Again with the laughing out loud!!!! That dog is hysterical!! Myates you're classic. We all need a good laugh during Bud's stressful recovery. Thank you!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is swimming using his left fin (both side fins) today during his bloodwormfest. I hope this is an improvement over him holding it to his side last night.

The dog? Sort of reminds me of the elf-thing in the Harry Potter movies...and kind of scary


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The dog is wearing the school colors of my brother's high school, blue and gold. Myates, you're too much fun. 

Bud sounds like he's doing okay in the Kanamycin soup so that's good news. I'm just so happy he's eating. Go Bud Go!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Glad to hear he isn't going to need a hook for a fin.. wait, hooks with fish isn't a good idea, is it?

Well, even though I honestly care about Bud's well being.. it's nice to be a bit goofy now and again, especially after a day with a lot of posts in this section of the forum. Seemed like every time I turned around, someone replied to me, so I had to reply back... etc. 
Not that I mind, otherwise I wouldn't be here doing it  But it's nice to be able to be a little silly because I am comfortable enough knowing Bud is getting the best treatment out there


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

BUD-DATE Nov 8:

I did not do the nightly physical last night, Bud is probably tired of seeing a 5" giant eye scoping his nuggies for 5 mins under bright light.

Tonight was the 48 hour change and inspection and the end of the 4th complete day in Kanamycin.

The fin damage on the bottom has not deteriorated any further, nor has the rear fin. The top fin lost the dark damaged stuff and has a tiny dark piece left. I'm surprised to still see that tiny dark spot still. His top fin looks just like a shark fin. His left fin is no longer clamped, he is zipping around with both side fins doing equal duty. Both of his side fins have a tiny bit of damage. Bud looks like a war veteran.

Bud is still aggressively eating and jumping, again, no change in his behavior.

After reviewing other posts about fin rot and what is happening for others, I hope that this thread might turn out to be a daily guideline of what may be an expected realtime timeline and outcome for others. Information is power.

On that same note, Bud now has internet access in his QT bucket (he's not grounded for partying anymore, so I gave him back his smartphone), so have all the fun you want, but know that Bud Is Watching.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yay for Bud! I'm not surprised the dark stuff fell off. That's what we want. The new fin can't grow until the dead tissue falls off. I'm glad. This is progress.

Hey, I hope you've got an unlimited plan for Bud or he might run up some pretty big charges. ;-)


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I know about the crazy charges love-struck guys can have on their phones. I've been there myself until I realized I can't afford love.

So I told Bud this would happen if his bill was out of line:


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That's the stuff, Input! Scare 'im straight!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Tough love.

It works.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I think I heard Cassius gasp when he saw that photo! That's what he gets for peeking over my shoulder when I'm on the computer. I hope he doesn't have nightmares tonight. But what could be worse - carnivorous seagulls or one-eyed nuggie intruders . . . it's a toss up.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Flowers, :lol:


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

OMG I cracked up at the picture of the threat.. my boyfriend says we need help 

Wheee!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm pretty sure I'm beyond help.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Ditto.. I used to work at a state run mental hospital with.. well.. you don't even want to know.. I already have my room picked out for me for when I finally step over into full on looney tunes


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates, wow. Sounds like the facility they have in Napa, CA. I wonder if I can get fish embroidered on my padded walls?


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Sure! Just hope you don't have a guy in the next room who has a fish fetish


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Brrrr. No kidding. 

I hope Bud is amused by our banter. ;-)


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is amused by single girls. I'm trying to expand his area of interest, but he has a one-track fish mind: *foodgirlsfoodgirlsfoodgirlsfoodgirls*


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

It's a real Man-Eat-Fish-Eat-Man world out there. Always be prepared.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Haha! I guess Input will have starfish embroidered on his walls . . .


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Hey don't laugh!
Starfish are extremely CRUEL and VICIOUS creatures. They lurk on the bottom in stealth mode, then they quietly slide onto you and PULL YOU APART!!!!

Next time I'll grease myself up good and slip away...


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:lol: Can I have fish AND starfish embroidered on my walls? Wait, I get four walls. So fish on one, starfish on another and uhm . . . I'll think about the other two. Cats and horses, maybe. Do they pad the ceiling too? I can have dogs embroidered on the ceiling.

Okay, just thinking about what goes on my padded walls definitely qualifies me for the nut house. XD

Ah Bud, I do believe his one track mind is shared by many other single males, fish or otherwise.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Say what you want about us single males Sakura, but we do make the world go around and you would be lonely without us


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:lol: Yes, yes we would indeed be lonely. And many of us would be unable to open pickle jars without a man's help. :-D


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

There we go! Real, genuine appreciation! We feel so much better now


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*hugs* You bet. Tell Bud he's most appreciated too, even though he probably can't open pickle jars too easily.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Are you kidding? Bud and his crew cleaned out the fridge! They SWAM in the pickle jar! I thought I was at Cal again!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I hope Bud helps pay the grocery bill. Or at least for the pickles. I wanna know, Bud, does pickle juice sting the eyes? ;-)


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud: Mere mortals are subject to laws of physics and pickle juice. I, am no ordinary fish. I battle rot daily, eat bloodworms for breakfast, and am coveted by all. I'm impressed by you, perhaps we will swim together one day.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh wow.. so uh.. I'm going to go check on your room Sakura, see how it's coming along..
*slowly backs away, turns and runs*

Oh wait! Can't leave Bud to suffer through this insanity alone! *snatches Bud up* I'll take you somewhere away from these nutty people.. 


Oh hey Bud.. lets go to..
Aruba, Jamaica ooo I wanna take ya 
Bermuda, Bahama come on pretty _fishy_ 
Key Largo, Montego baby why don't we go 

Jamaica off the Florida Keys 
There's a place called Kokomo 
That's where you wanna go to get away _from all these crazy people_

Bodies and scales in the sand 
Tropical drink melting in my hand _with you in it_ 
We'll be falling in love 
To the rhythm of a steel drum band 
Down in Kokomo 

Aruba, Jamaica ooo I wanna take you 
To Bermuda, Bahama come on pretty _fishy_
Key Largo, Montego baby why don't we go 
Down to Kokomo 
We'll get there fast 
And then we'll take it slow 
That's where we wanna go _to get away from all these nuts_
Way down to Kokomo 

To Martinique, that Monserrat mystique 

We'll put out to sea 
And we'll perfect our _water_ chemistry 
By and by we'll defy a little bit of gravity 

Afternoon delight 
cocktails and moonlit nights 
That dreamy look in your eye 
Give me a tropical contact high 
Way down in Kokomo 

Aruba, Jamaica ooo I wanna take you 
To Bermuda, Bahama come on pretty _fishy_
Key Largo, Montego baby why don't we go 
Down to Kokomo 
We'll get there fast 
And then we'll take it slow 
That's where we wanna go _to get away from the crazies_
Way down to Kokomo 

Port Au Prince I wanna catch a glimpse 

Everybody knows 
A little place like Kokomo 
Now if you wanna go 
And get away from _them_ all 
Go down to Kokomo 

 teehee gotta love them Boys! Kokomo


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

sounds like Bud is just like my Champagne food girl food girl...
Go bud go!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

If I could stop laughing at all you crazy people I could decide what I want on MY walls in my room in Jamica, or was it Aruba. Why am I craving pickles?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

If there are no walls...you don't need padding......beach sand and water is soft...........


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates: :rofl: and *hug*

Bud: I am honored that you would wish to swim with me.  *bows*

Flowers: :lol:


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Bud has a cru-ush 
*wink wink* Good choice! Gimmie a high fin!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input, we need an update! How's our boy?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

This is the Budster today after lunch PST. He has been in this soak for 2.5 days and I just changed his bath again. I gotta go and count his total days so far as of this pm!!!

All of his fin loss has stopped and the edges have a clean "finish" look to them, not a torn/damaged look. The only exception is his top (shark) fin that had the last of the dark material, there is a mini-minuscule ragged edge on the lower portion only where the rays are showing.

His activity is at it's most it's ever been. He has energy to spare.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Poor guy is unhappy, look at the stress stripe 
It's okay Bud, hang in there! This is much better then the alternative!
I think #1 will remain that way- normally when they lose all the way to the body they tend not to grow back. Just makes him unique!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Lookin' good, Bud, lookin' good.  Looks like the old dead tissue has mostly fallen off, which means the new tissue can start growing soon. Poor Bud, though. This whole ordeal is like having to go the doctor for a complete physical every other day. Yes, the indignity has been terrible, Bud, but you're strong. You'll pull through and a be a better betta for it.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Wow Input, you take some of the best pics I've ever seen. Although his fins are tattered, they look *really* good - much better than they did before. I now have full confidence that this Kanamycin will kick it out. He should only receive three doses for a total of 6 days. You don't want to do anymore than that. The med is really strong and I was advised to keep the treatment as short as possible.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

*snaps on latex gloves*

Oh.. every_other_ day.. nevermind, see you tomorrow Bud!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

The evening of the 10th was the 6th complete day. So he's at 7.5 days. I'll dump the medicated soup right now, but keep him in the QT bucket until his bachelor pad is prepared for his arrival late today. 

I gotta do a 90% water change, vacuum, and HEAT that place on up! It's like the North Atlantic about now.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates, :rofl: :rofl: 

Input, don't forget to hang out the Welcome Home banner across the front of the tank.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is at home, here's a pic after the first 90 seconds. 2 minutes later he turned almost completely black. Very menacing.
Pushing his tank to about 80 degrees with the medical dose of Stress Coat.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, if I was a thug, I wouldn't want to meet Bud in a dark alleyway. He looks awesome against the black sand.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Daaaaang . . . he's HUUUGE! What a beast. I'm so glad he's only a couple of inches long. I'd never swim in freshwater again if he was any bigger. Woah. He looks really good though. Keep us posted with new fin growth!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Flowers, if you're lucky, your king will get as big as Bud.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Wow, I don't know. Bud is truly the "King of Beers . . . oh, I mean Betta's" He's just a monster. However, my unnamed tiger shark is probably only a few months old, so I'm just as scared at how big he's going to get too. Here's a pic of my new guy - still striped, grey and eye balling me closely . . . .


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bud needs to mentor him on how to be a proper king betta.  I love the freckles on your king's dorsal, Flowers.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Aww such a cutie Flower!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is home for almost 24 hours and is looking good. He has an Indian Almond leaf floating to contemplate, but mostly wants to swim all over. 

Leaf is interesting, and is the first item near the top. I don't think it will stay there after a couple days when it gets water logged.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The bachelor pad is looking good, Bud.  Take it easy on those wild parties until those fins heal.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hopefully he blows a nest and keeps it up! If not, it'll water log and sink. If it sinks, it'll make a good lean-to and a place for the ladies to go and re-apply their lipstick. You might want to install a mirror . . .


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud must have made plans...I just saw him lifting weights at the rear of his pad behind the driftwood.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

So that's how Bud got to be such a big stud. I need a pic that I can use as a pinup poster for my sorority.  

Flowers, :lol: Good point. Want those ladies looking lovely at all times. Like my Plum Pretty.







See her lipstick? Always freshly applied. ;-)


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is looking pretty decent, better than when he came out of the QT bucket. He is working the entire tank, highly engaging and doing a few interesting things. He goes to where the water return is, and lays on the driftwood, letting the water pressure hold him down for 2 seconds or so. Then he goes back and does it again.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is continuing to look good/better, his fins are healing. I can't really 'see' the new fin, but the gaps and holes are getting smaller. The only parts that look 'different' is the bottom fin where the rot touched his body (the damage is much smaller, but I don't think it will completely grow back) and the top fin that was the most recent damage, there are a couple lightish ray-nubs sticking out, but it's getting better. Maybe late today or tomorrow I'll cup him and take a super-look at all his cracks and crevices.

Keeping at 80 degrees, medical dose Stress-Coat, Indian Almond leaf, lots of bloodworms and some betta pellets.

His eating and activity are par for Team Bud, he's an ANIMAL!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hiya Input! Bud is looking faaaantastic! So is his bachelor pad for that matter. Bud, you've got yourself a great interior designer. ;-) I think Myates mentioned that the fin that was eaten all the way to his body probably won't grow back or grow back the same as before but that's okay. It just adds a touch of individuality and mystery. Like men with a scar on their face.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud seems to be on the right track finally. My confidence is the highest it's been since this ordeal started. Tomorrow I'll take Bud for a walk (it's ok, it's supposed to be raining) and take a close up and personal inventory of his issues.

I can't believe you said SCARFACE.

*I want to thank all of you for your attention and consistent assistance throughout this trying time, I won't lie and say that it hasn't been one of the worst periods in my adult life. I'm tearing up thinking about Smoochie as I write this  God how I miss him! I hear his little sounds throughout the day...*

Bud will still need something at or near the top of his 18" pad, hopefully it can be a natural item like a floating or 18" tall vine, or something. He works the entire 15 gals and I can't help but think a bigger tank would not be wasted on him. No matter if I have the return going into the corner or blasting in the middle of the tank. He does not hide, it's just not in his nature. I could pick him up in my hand. No fear. When he sleeps, sometimes in his branch-tube or in a corner behind driftwood. That's it. Funny: I came home quietly at midnight everything was dark, and I could see him swimming across the tank in the moonlight. I had left a 4:00pm. Definitely a night-fish.

The Amazon Swords had the roots cut to maybe 1/4-1/2" and popped in the sand. I dragged a fork through the sand before I let Bud go home. Roots had grown maybe 3"+ since the time when you told me to cut them...so a couple weeks? Fine grain sand didn't seem to hurt them much at all. Of course they are near the top of the sand, not 2" down in it.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm just so happy that you were able to, and cared enough to do all you have for him. He is one lucky fish to have you as his owner. He is definitely on the right track and getting better. He sounds like a great little guy, a wonderful, fun personality  As silly as it sounds, I think you two were meant to have each other lol.

You could try Java moss to float on top? Some tend to like to lay in it since it's soft. But unsure what look you are wanting in there. 

I wish I could of been more help, but once it was time for the big guns, medicine wise, I had to bow out and leave it to the professionals  My experience with those types of medications is pretty much zilch. But it all worked out and I am so happy for that! And even though we were worried and it wasn't a funny situation.. at least the spirits were kept up during the ride which made it easier.
Again I'm so sorry about Smoochie.. but he's still with you in spirit, and in your heart. His little noises you hear is just him telling you that he's fine and happy, and is watching over you.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I heard Bud playing with his gun this morning, so I look in on him and he's playing Russian Roulette....BUD HAS CLOUDY EYES THIS MORNING!!!! *REALLY????*
I've never seen it before, but it's pretty obvious what it is.
There was nothing during the day yesterday, and I don't believe there was anything last night.

I'll test ph (which is normally pretty high, not low) and his water is new, 95% changed a few days ago when he went into the tank.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

ph-8.2
ammonia-0
nitrite-0
nitrates-5ppm 
water ±80 degrees
95% water change when I put Bud home a few days ago
Some tannins in the water from the driftwood and Indian Almond leaf.
The light is on about 10 hours a day for the plants, but the tank is in the middle of a room not against a wall, so it get natural light all day.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Grrrrr!!! Okay, let's start with your pH. Mine is high too. Can you check both the tank and the then seperately check the tap? You have driftwood in the water so that can lower your pH. The leaf is too small to have an effect, so I'm not worried about that. I just learned that drift wood & dead organics are the #1 culprit to lowering your pH. So if Bud is in his tank, which is lower in pH and then you do a water change, you're creating a spike in pH which can be detrimental if not deadly to our fish. I have the same issue in my females tank - one of them has cloudy eyes and she recently started acting lethargic. I'm worried that I'm days, or perhaps moments, away from losing her. Bud is young and strong though. It certainly isn't bacterial because he just finished those strong meds. I'm off to google more. Myates? Sakura?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I just tested the tap water and it came out to be 7.8. Something doesn't sound right if several day old tank water is 8.2.

I test the same way every time. I think temp. might have an effect, but I'm not sure. The tap water is a little below 70 degrees.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Tannins are supposed to help lower pH so I'm confused. :/ It's possible your plants are causing a pH spike. I'm not sure but I think when plants don't have enough carbon dioxide, they use carbon in the water and that causes a change in pH. Problem is I can't remember if that change goes higher or goes lower. Maybe try a fertilizer like Seachem Flourish. 

His cloudy eyes are definitely from the pH spike. Is he acting all right otherwise? If he begins acting odd, back to the bucket he goes. In the meantime, we'll all do some checking and googling to see what we can find on this matter. I'll double-check about the plants and pH thing, too.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

It looks like Bud, it acts like Bud, it does what Bud always does, so it's the same old Bud. Except he has half white eyes like and old Twilight Zone episode.

I'll test ph again this afternoon (tap and tank) and yank the plants. They can go live in the bucket for awhile. Bud hates it.

What if the water is always 8.2 would that still be a problem?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If the water stays at 8.2, Bud will most likely ultimately adapt. But I'm concerned about what might happen during the adaptation process. :/ I really don't understand how this happened. I know some water conditioners can cause pH fluctuations. I think Kordon Amquel is one of them. I don't think Stress Coat does, though.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I can test the water every day and see what happens, that might be helpful. 

But get this:
His bucket water was always from the tap. The tank was 95% new tap water when he went in. Now the ph is higher and he has cloudy eyes. Assuming the tap water is relatively consistent (I don't know if it is) then there is a raised ph and that may be his cause. BUT this did not happen previously and the plants have been around for a while....

All I can do is keep testing the ph to get an idea of what's happening.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I'm curious about the plants too. Mine are dieing, so my pH spike was a decrease due to the decay. I'd love to know if they can create a pH increase. The most important thing is to keep the pH as stable as possible. He can live in 8.2 just fine, as long as it's stable. A small adjustment in the pH is a huge swing to the chemistry balance of the tank and could cause him to shock. That's why even a water change w/a slightly different pH can cause issues. Just be aware that you do not want to buy pH adjusters for your tank. They adjust the pH and then in a day or two they're back where they started. You really need to be a water chemist to use that stuff. It would be horrible for him. I'm on a HUGE pH quest due to my girl so I'll keep us all posted on what I learn.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I did the test again just to be sure, same results.
Tap on left (7.8) Bud on right (8.2)
The water colors are saturated in the photos, but look just like the corresponding colors on the card in real life.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, so my plant book says,
"When free CO2 gas is not available for the plants in the aquarium, they will fill their C02 needs from carbon molecules present in other forms in the water, which in turn will cause the pH of the water to rise."

So it sounds like the Amazon Swords are possibly the cause of this spike. It's odd, though, because I've had plants in the exact same conditions and have never had a problem. At any rate, I suggest you get a product called Seachem Flourish Excel. This is a carbon additive for the plants. If you add it every few days, it should provide enough carbon for the plants that they don't need to use carbon in hte water and cause a pH spike. I use it in my tanks . . . er, when I remember to add it. >.<

Of course, yanking the plants is always an option too. *shrugs*


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Dabnabbit! Poor Bud!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It may be necessary to put Bud back in the bucket with the lower pH water until his eyes clear. I hesitate to put him in any more medications like epsom salt because he's had so much treatment lately. Poor Budster.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Ok, I'll yank him and stuff him into the bucket. I'll tell him its a game.

I don't think Petco/Petsmart have Sea.Flour.Ex. but I'll call. I'm in Monterey so there are not a lot of choices. Not an emergency though.

DANG!

I'll figure out what to do, I thought the plants would be neat. I used to have mbunas, and plants are an option other than food/


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I don't get it. By all rights, just a few Amazon Swords shouldn't use up THAT much CO2, especially in a 15g tank. There may be another reason why the pH spiked but it might take a few days to suss it out. Tell Bud there was a problem with the contractor doing renovations on his bachelor pad.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

But I'M the contractor that did the renovations!!!!!!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Then I believe Bud has some choice words for you. ;-) I don't think he's going to give you a good review on Angie's List.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Dang, tough crowd on the forum.

So I see that Seachem Flourish Excel is a liquid and I will put in a ratio of about 1ml per 10 gallons per day. So I'll buy the 500ml bottle asap.

I'll make a habit of checking the ph daily for a while till I get a feel of what is happening with this.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aww, actually Bud's pad is one of the most palatial and well-done I've seen. It should be written up in magazines.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Yea, it's a "killer" pad.

There were no problems before. I don't know if some combination has triggered something. I have to go back over the posts but before the driftwood he was ok. I got it from an online fish supply. The plants were there from the beginning, but the moss ball is newer... I don't know.

Back to the bucket, son!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud checked in to the "Bucket Inn Express" late last night. Medical dose Stress Coat and 78-80 degrees. I assume the water is about the same 7.8 as it came from the tap 2 times earlier yesterday.

12 hours later (right now), his eyes appear clear.

I'm going out and about today and have the opportunity to try an out of town store or two, perhaps they will have the Seachem. If not, I'll buy online tonight and wait a week for it to arrive. The only way to put him back in his pad would be to change out a lot of water daily, which is fine, but I have the temperature issue to deal with and I only have one heater at this time....but that's just logistics.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Great news about Bud's eye issue! I need some good news. My little Helen doesn't seem long for this world  So in my depression I'm focusing on Bud so I did a little googling. I know you're in Monterey, but I found a pet store in Salinas that has Flourish in stock. Here's the link http://www.petfunsalinas.com I'm sure they sell heaters too


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Poor Bud must be so tired of the Bucket Inn Express. When one of my bettas was moved to a 1.75g kritter keeper while his tank was upgraded, he sulked the entire time. Literally sulked. He was in that kritter keeper for 3 weeks and he's never quite forgiven me even though his upgraded tank looks lush.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I found this when I came out in the morning. At first I thought a raccoon got inside the house and threw up, but it turns out Bud has managed to fill his social calendar just fine, bucket and all:








I got the Flourish Excel in Salinas, I'm gonna teach those bad plants a lesson.

Thank you.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I can't even see to type. I laughed so hard, tears came to my eyes. Way to go Bud! Gotta love that indomitable spirit of his.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I put in the initial mega-dose of the Excel about 45 mins ago, and I'm wondering what to expect with the water....does it affect the ph directly? Or do I change the water so it's a lower ph and then add the Excel? I just checked the ph and it's still 8.2 so I figure the Excel won't raise the ph but prevent it from going up when dosed correctly.

I'm going to use some PH DOWN for now, but change out the water in the future....time is of the essence and I didn't get a back up heater, so Buds Party Bucket is cooling faster than the Bachelor Pad is heating up.

Something just seem inherently wrong with that.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, I don't think it affects pH directly. It's more of a long-run thing. I think what it will do is, if you take out the water and do a water change, get the water back to 7.8, the Excel will keep the plants from using up carbon in the water and driving the pH back up.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Be careful with the pH down. It's a temporary chemical and when it wears off it can cause other issues. I reccomend reading this article - just scroll down for the information regarding pH.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

You have to be a chemist to understand it, but it will give you an idea about pH levels & pH chemicals. (After you start reading it, I expect you to begin laughing profusely at me and saying, "What in the world did this crazy women link to me? And did she actually expect me to understand it or even read it?") One thing you will get from the article however is how much we really don't understand about water chemistry, but it is a starting point and you will gleen some good info from it. Anyway, in the meantime, here's how you can deal with the water temperature in the main tank since you only have one heater: When you're ready to add Bud back in, do the 50% water change. However, use much warmer water. Once added, it will immediately increase the temperature of the tank. Try to get it as close to 80 degrees as you can. Then you can move the heater over, along w/Bud and you won't have to worry about using your heater to heat up the entire tank.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I totally agree with Flowers on the pH thing. Always use pH adjustors with caution. I tried using a buffer that lowered my pH from 8.0 to 6.8 in a planted tank that had no fish. The sudden change in pH melted the stems of my pennywort.  

It really is odd that the pH should be so high. *scratches head* Both the driftwood and IAL should have lowered it. 

How do Bud's eyes look right now? Still cloudy? Tell him to take off that cool pair of shades so you can get a good look.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Last night Buds eyes were almost perfect, so I put him back home where I had the ph down to 7.8. This morning the water was slightly cloudy (never had that before) and the ph was 8.0 and his eyes were a little worse. But he made a bubble nest. The water has cleared up throughout the day. Oh well, back in the bucket! I'll have to empty his tank 95% tomorrow and start from scratch with 7.8 tap water and Flourish Excel with daily ph testing to get a feel of how to control everything.

Ph down is worthless.

Can I microwave a few cups of water to get his tank temperature up and stable before I return him home?

I can't deal with his water change tonight, I re-tweaked my back and can barely lift the spoon of ice cream to my mouth.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Eek.. yeah those pH uppers and downers are bad  Normally a betta adjusts to whatever pH you have on their own. 

Unsure about microwaving water.. is there a way to use a thermometer and just warm up the tap water in the faucet to get it warmer?

This is more for Sakura: AQ salt is recommended to use when eyes are cloudy during popeye treatment (after the Epsom to get the swelling down), do you think using AQ salt in this situation will help clear up his eyes a bit quicker?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Myates! I hope you're feeling better after your bout with the flu - yucko! I hate being sick! I'll let Sakura give you the final, final on the AQ but it's my understanding that when they get cloudy eyes from pH issues, it's only the pH stabilization that will clear them up. However, 'Cloud-Eye' is a bacterial infection and you'd definately use AQ salt for that issue. I've been enduring horrible pH problems over the last 2 weeks and I even lost Helen  I'm struggling to keep Winston alive right now so I've been diving into pH issues like a crazy lady. I have a few threads and questions to OFL, hoping to figure it all out. I'm scared to do a w/c because all of my tanks (including my tap) have different pH's right now. Wierd stuff!! I'm a complete and total novice at all this water chemistry stuff but I'll be passing along every piece of info I can to assist our boy Bud!!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sorry about your back, Input.  I would think you could microwave a cup or two but maybe no more than 30 seconds.

Myates, hmm, I'm not sure. Why is the AQ salt recommended, just in case it's a bacterial thing? :-? I might hold off on the AQ salt for just a bit, since Bud's eyes cleared up once he was out of the high pH and clouded again when he was back in. 

Could the pH imbalance be related to a cycling issue?


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks Flowers, sorry to hear of your loss and your problems with the pH  I hope I never have to deal with that issue *crosses fingers*.

You are right, the cloudy eyes, if due from pH, wouldn't need AQ salts. I think I'm off my game now  Just odd that it's now affecting him, when he was in the tank prior and he was fine with the pH as it was... hope you guys can figure this out, Bud needs a long vacation soon after all of this.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates, you're not off your game, you're doing fine.  It never hurts to throw out every option there is, especially when we're all scratching our heads about this one. Keep posting, we luv ya!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I wasn't aware that microwaving water could be a bad thing. I'll have to look into the how & why.

Buds eyes are virtually perfect today in the bucket. Fins are coming along well. Today will do 95% water change/vacuum and ph test. The cycling does not seem to be an issue (0 amm, 0 nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate) and water is clear. So will use the Flourish Excel and monitor daily. If for some reason plants are an issue that I have any more problems with, I'll yank them for now. I don't have it in me to juggle any more problems than I already am. I can always try again later once other areas of life have settled down.

Flowers: I'm sorry to hear of Helen and your fish family having struggles...suffering is painful for everyone


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

One more quick question. What kind of sand or substrate did you use? Since you used to keep mbunas, I'm sure you know about cichlid substrates that harden the water and up the pH. Was just wondering if maybe the sand had anything to do with this crazy pH.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

With mbunas I used crushed coral and everything was very good for what they needed. King Budly, chose CaribSea Black Tahitian Moon sand, it is allegedly inert to affecting the ph and other parameters (Looks awesome, available at Petstmart and online. Petco also has their own branded black sand that appears the same, but I didn't read the label). I'm believing the ph went through the roof due to the plant issue.

Bud looks pretty darn good tonight but I won't cup him until tomorrow to get a complete physical done. I'm too broken down and shot to fix up the tank tonight, so that circus will have to wait until tomorrow. I almost don't want him in the party palace again...I'm getting a phobia. The guy has spent a huge amount of time in "The Bucket".


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Okay, here's some good information. I posted a new thread over at tropicalfishkeeping regarding my water chemistry issues. Input, pop over there and read the thread. I tried to list the link below - I hope it works. Byron is the Super Mod who is helping me out and he's incredibly 'super'. He's crazy knowledgable in all things chemistry and perhaps what he's advising me will help you understand what's going on with your tank. 
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/plants-swinging-ph-water-changes-86505/


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Uh oh. I cupped Bud just now, and took a very close look at his fins. They are all fine except on the bottom at the original area. (See LEFT photo red circle and arrow pointing at missing fin) (RIGHT photo is from 2 weeks ago for comparison...you can see the circle of damage then).I didn't notice this yesterday when I changed his bucket water, but it may have started and I didn't notice. There are a few rays showing and fin is missing. He is still in the bucket because I tore apart my back and doing the massive water change has been very unappealing. I've been changing the bucket every 2 days.















I'll look again tonight to see if there is any change.

What do I do? He still has the medical dose of Stress Coat+ and 80 degrees. Are there any options with the Maracyn II, Kanamycin, AQ salt?

As usual, he is pumped about everything. He's been enjoying his Thanksgiving dinner.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

He sat in some pretty strong meds and went through the whole array - gram negative & positive. I'll surmise that this is just finnage that had already undergone damage and it's now falling off. Is it lined black, like it's active rot? I'd just pay attention to it and give it time - see if it progesses. Sakura? Myates? I'm not the diagnoser but I'd be really surprised if his rot was so tough that it would surpass kanamyacin. *fingers crossed*


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has what looks like a tiny black spot with a damaged portion on his rear fin that wasn't there yesterday and his underside has some clear rays showing more than yesterday. I can't upload the picture from my phone to the forum.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Okay, this rot is *really* starting to tick me off. I've been googling like crazy and I found an article specifically talking about fin rot and how it can be really stubborn to get rid of some times. This person reccomended dosing the meds until you actually see fin growth - which is longer than directed. None of us like that answer, especially when it comes to kanamyacin. Darkmoon is a vet tech so let me ask her about that drug. She's the one that directed me to use it in regards to one of my other bettas. I'll get back to you. . .


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Kanamycin is supposed to be prescription strength. :/ Although, I guess sometimes even humans need extended treatment with prescription drugs. Thank goodness Bud is a hearty, strong King betta, otherwise I would be worried about harming a betta's delicate system with all these meds. Nothing delicate about Bud the stud. ;-)

If it was just the fin falling off from spot #1, I would say it was the rot taking its natural course but the appearance of more black is definitely troubling. I'll defer to DarkMoon and her professionally trained expertise on this one.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Here's Darkmoon's response. Input, do you have enough drugs for a 14 day treatment? Don't send off my tube if you need it. However, if you do need it and your accountant already sent it, I'll send it back.
++++++++++++++++++++ 

Darkmoon's Response:

I'm traveling so I can't go into great detail right now, but I'd say that as long as the betta gets 100% daily water changes and his temp is kept at 78-82*F, it should be safe to extend the treatment period. Personally I wouldn't do over 14 days though. Do not increase the dosage. Make sure he gets at least 7 days rest (JUST clean water) before repeating treatment unless it begins spreading quickly again.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

So here's an update on pH thing, in case you didn't pop over to my thread in tropicalfishkeeping . . . GH and KH have an effect on our pH. The proper KH will help stabilize our pH and keep it from swinging. GH is the hardness of our water and our decoration and/or substrate can effect the GH. The Moon Sand states that it doesn't effect the pH, but my question is 'does it effect our GH?' Who knows. I also noticed that you have a couple of rocks in the tank. The addition of any calcium (and I believe magnesium?) will raise our GH which in turn raise our pH. I do have some substrate and a rock that have effected my GH therefore my pH. However, the good news I discovered is that even after my w/c, the pH stabilizes within 2 hours. Input, test your pH right before you do a w/c, then test it again 2 hours after. See if there's any difference. In regards to the cloudy eyes, all I could find is that super low pH creates cloudy eyes. The minor difference in your pH shouldn't have effected Bud in that manner. However, I'm not a vet so that is just my common knowledge response based on what I researched. Also, in regards to your Swords. I was told that even with the presence or absence of plants it wouldn't have any effect on the issues I was experiencing. My tank was sparsely planted, as is yours. With such a small addition of plants, they have no effect. So in conclusion I'd surmise that your sand and your rocks have effected your pH, but that your slight change shouldn't effect Bud and should even stabilize a couple of hours after any water change. I will always *highly* reccomend going over to tropicalfishkeeping and posting your own quesion with your own parameters in the plant section. My only requirement is that you *must* share what you learn! (okay, my fingers hurt from so much typing - I'll stop now!)


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

What's interesting is I have extremely soft water, thanks to the water softener, but extremely high pH. It makes things confusing when I read that a certain fish likes water that is "soft and acid" or "hard and alkaline." I'm like, "But my water is soft and alkaline!"

You can get API liquid test kits for GH/KH. I have one. 

*twiddles thumbs*


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud, for the first time, is not happy.
His rear fin, bottom fin, and some misc. areas all show signs, there has been a major change quicker than before.

Tonight I changed his 2 gallons of bucket water, got it at 80, medical dose of Stress Coat+, and half the spoon of Kanamycin, covered the bucket. Should have done this yesterday 

Thank you for your diligent help. I'm really upset as I didn't think this sort of thing happened and Bud is not in party mode for the first time. He seems worried.   

His eyes have been fine, but I have not gotten to putting Bud back into the bachelor pad.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh dear.  Well, fortunately we've got DarkMoon's go ahead for further treatment with the Kanamycin so we'll get this darn rot licked once and for all. Hang in there, Bud! You've got Team Bud on your case. 

It's probably best not to put him back into his bachelor pad until both his health and the pH stabilize.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is unhappy. He ate about 4 pellets and stopped. Not the usual Bud doing his usual Bud thing. I assume he feels bad/in pain? I'll continue everything and hope that there is an immediate turnaround, I don't feel any further deterioration will be something tolerable. 

The dim bucket has become the norm


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

We've got to hope the Kanamycin works because frankly, I don't know what else to throw at this persistent rot. We'll continue to consult DarkMoon on every medical matter. That's our best chance for success. 

Maybe you can pick up a 2.5g glass tank so he doesn't have to be in the bucket?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Maybe you can pick up a 2.5g glass tank so he doesn't have to be in the bucket?


Needs to be in very low light for the meds that are light sensitive. That's why the white bucket with a dark towel.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ah, true, true, forgot about that. *facepalm* Hang in there Bud and Input! With fin rot, it gets worse before it gets better. We just have to limit how worse it gets.


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

I know that live plants will cause the GH and KH to lower and in turn lower the PH. Personal experience with two tanks. I can tell you the PH in my boys tank is so low it's below the colour charts. I have to add a natural buffer (small pinch of crushed coral) to try and help it balance. It worked for the 33 gal, and I'm about to put some in the 10. IF you're having beyond low PH that might be a suggestion?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud isn't doing well. Swimming erratically, ate only one pellet, has "fits of swimming furiously", is favoring one direction.

Maybe the Kanamycin is too hard for him now? In it for about 20 hours. Maybe when change the water, use a slightly lower dose?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Pm'ing Darkmoon . . . erratic swimming and losing appetite isn't good.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh Bud... I'm so sorry.. wishing the best for you guys. You're doing all you can and so much more, hang in there Input and Bud.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input, Darkmoon stated to stop all drugs. The erratic swimming is a sign that he isn't taking to the drugs well. Get him back in clean water and either expect to hear from Darkmoon directly or I'll post again as soon as I hear from her. Normally she steps right in but she's travelling.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Thanks flowerslegacy for keeping me in the loop! So, this "swimming erratically" action has me worried. If you haven't yet, move him into clean water. Is it possible for you to get a new picture of him? Does he appear at all bloated? Have there been any color changes? Is he still active or does he just float at the top/bottom?


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Hang in there Bud, we're all cheering for you.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is hanging out on top almost motionless. He eats a couple pellets. He will suddenly jet away rapidly, he never did that before. He is having a problem with his swim bladder and aims his body downward in order to swim down and does not seem to be able to stay oriented in the water easily unless he is at the surface.

Somehow I did not get the notifications of these posts yesterday, so he has spent the last 24 hrs in meds when I could have taken him out  I will put him in fresh water right now.

He looks much worse, his fins have drastically deteriorated, there are some marks on his side as well.

Trying to take pics, but he won't settle down in cup. Maybe if I cup him again once he's been in clean water he will mellow a bit.

I can't believe this is happening


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

His body shape has changed slightly, I can't pinpoint what it is. He is quiet on the surface but will jet around crazily if disturbed somewhat more than putting a pellet in front of his face. His color is about the same. His rear fin has mostly disappeared in the last 24 hrs and has a lighter spot on one of his sides.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input, this is just wierd. I'm so glad that Darkmoon is here now. I'm sure we're all stumped as to why his rot is progessing so fast and now his behavior is changing. She'll give you the best direction possible. He's beyond the normal stuff we've been dealing with and if anyone can help, she can. Staying posted . . .


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you.

He stays still at the surface this morning. Ate one pellet. Jets around if I disturb him, but mostly is quiet. Of course not much reason to swim around in the bucket. He's in clean, 80 degree no-med water.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thinking lots of get well thoughts for Bud, input. He has the best chance he can get with DarkMoon on the case.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

He's got no-med water and I don't know if he will be better without the meds. But he has fin issues like crazy...go back to the Maracyn II? AQ salt? Let it play out? 

Sigh


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Darkmoon will direct you correctly. Hang tough until she responds. His erratic behavior could be from the meds??? She'll know how to proceed.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Hugs for Bud.. hang in there little guy.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Can you get a new pic of Bud without stressing him out too much, Input? It would help us, especially DarkMoon, if we could see the extent of new damage. 

Hang in there, you two. Team Bud is behind you all the way! Go Bud GO!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I cupped him and he won't settle down in the cup even after 2 minutes. He struggles in the cup and can't get himself to a position of stability like he seems to be able to in the bucket. He lists 45 degrees to one side and continuously struggles to right himself. It's heartbreaking and so wrong.

I just put him back in the bucket and he struggles to get to the bottom and into a dark cup on the bottom. I think it's to help him right himself and rest. Then he will come out and manage to be completely upright on the surface and just stay there motionless.

His area behind his gills appear slightly larger, but I think that may be because the area further back is thinner from not eating much the last few days?

His color is the same-ish, there is no white/grey fuzz, just fin damage. Most of the fin on the bottom is gone, and the rear fin is squared off. The top fin is about half the normal size or less. There does seem to be a few scales on one side that are somewhat different, but I can't really tell what it is.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I don't understand how the rot could suddenly progress so fast, especially since Bud has basically been living in a medicine soup for the last several weeks. The fact that there is no grey fuzz at least implies he doesn't have acute columnaris, which can also eat away at fins.

Bud's stomach area isn't greyish/whitish is it?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Maybe greyish-whitish-bluish underneath....what is that?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If his stomach is discolored and it wasn't before, it _could_ be a sign that Bud has an internal bacterial infection too. This would account for his sudden change in behavior. Hopefully we can get a hold of DarkMoon soon for medication advice because I myself am hesitant to suggest anything since he's been in so much medication the past few weeks. I'd prefer to have DarkMoon's veterinary trained expertise on that matter. But if she is unable to respond within the next 24 hrs, we'll have to wing it.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Possibly another infection? Where does all this come from??? He seemed fine for the first 2 months when he had nothing in his tank but a few plants and marbles....but it has been going downhill for the last 6 weeks...everything in his tank was new, not from other tanks.

Oh man


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I know how you feel. We've all been there before, unfortunately. It seems like we do everything we can for our bettas and with the best intentions but sometimes they get sick anyway and we just wanna bang our heads against something very hard and possibly kind of spiky too. 

With Bud, I can only guess that if he has an internal infection, it's because his immune system became stressed, possibly from the fin rot. Bacteria is always present in tanks; most of that bacteria is good bacteria but some is disease-causing bacteria. But when a fish's immune system becomes compromised for any reason, it can sometimes be just enough for the bad bacteria to take hold. 

One thing you can try until DarkMoon can respond is medicated pellets. Petsmart occasionally carries them, as do Pet Clubs (I'm not sure if you have one in Monterey, though). They are the Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated Pellets. And yes, you do want Anti-Parasite because that is the pellet that has the medicine necessary to battle an internal infection. To make them palatable, you will probably have to soak them in garlic juice. The more garlic Bud intakes, the better, as it is a great immune booster. Get some fresh garlic (or jarred minced garlic works too). Mince it up, mix some of the garlic with a bit of tank water and soak the pellets in that. You can also soak his bloodworms in garlic juice.

Kanaplex can also be administered by food but I'm not 100% sure how to prepare it. I think you can possibly coat frozen bloodworms with it in the same way you would soak the worms in garlic juice but I'm not sure. DarkMoon will know.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

That's what I feared... It is most likely an internal infection, which as Sakura mentioned, explains his change in behavior and sudden relapse. In essence, the external infection (fin rot) weakened his immune system and made him susceptible to an internal bacterial infection. Hopefully he isn't to the point where organs are shutting down...

Your best bet is to treat him as if it were an internal infection. Lower the water level so he can reach the surface more easily. If you have Epsom Salt then add that at 3tsp/gal. Increase temp to 84*F if possible. If he is still eating, give the Kanamycin orally by soaking thawed blood worms in a solution of kanamycin and dechlorinated water in the fridge overnight (there should be instructions for this on the container). If he is not eating then use it in solution (in his water). You can also add minced garlic and garlic juices to the bloodworm mixture to improve the taste. 

I'm sorry for the bad news  Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh, thank goodness, DarkMoon is here. Phew. 

Input, you're in good hands. Whatever you do, don't give up hope. Remember, Bud is BUD. Not just any betta, but BUD. He's got a fighter's spirit and so do you. Hang in there, you guys can do it!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I lowered his bucket to about 1 gallon, and am increasing the temp. The water is 24 hours old...maybe should change it?

I have the bloodworms in Kanamycin water, but will read the instructions to increase Kanamycin for proper dosing. He's not eating much, maybe 2 pellets today. plenty of of poop in the bucket, more than 2 pellets worth. He might have eaten one bloodworm just now.

I have AQ salt, but I can go to market right now to get epsom salt instead. If he is not eating, you say I should put the Kanamycin back into his water?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That's what it sounds like, Input. Epsom salt is better for internal infections than AQ so if you can, you might want to pick some up. Epsom salt will help leach out the excess fluids that are caused by bacterial infections. Hopefully he'll eat the Kanamycin bloodworms so you don't have to put the medicine back into his water.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Going to store right now for Epsom and garlic.

I sure hope he will eat a high-dose bloodworm. I increased the Kanamycin dose just now to the bloodworms I already had thawed with his Kanamycin water. I'll add garlic, but he may not eat one till morning


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

All you can do is try. Good luck, Input. We're all pulling for you and Bud.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is in the 84 degree 1 gallon sauna, with epsom salt. I hope Bud will be a little hungry in the morning. He seems to have a bite first thing. I've got drug and garlic infused bloodworms for him. Hopefully a couple of those can have some effect on the nasties.

I'll re-read everything, but I'm thinking he may need to have the meds in his water, if he doesn't eat in the morning. His erratic swimming seems to be from him holding his body at a slight curve to help maintain his balance, and from swimming away from my hand (which he has never done before). So maybe meds not causing erratic swimming problems, maybe it's the internal infection?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You are most likely right, that it is the internal infection that caused the erratic swimming. Internal infections affect the organs, causing a fluid buildup. The fluid buildup, in turn, affects the swim bladder and causes the loss of control like erratic swimming and difficulty holding the body upright.

Okay Bud, it's up to you. Fight, Bud, fight! You can do it!

I'll check in first thing in the morning, Input. Hang in there!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Poor, poor Bud 

Thank you so much for you assistance!

I'll see if he eats a worm or two in the morning, but I'm thinking I should plan on changing his water and add the Kanamycin?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It sounds like you're pretty sure he's not going to eat the medicated worms so yeah, definitely plan on adding the Kanamycin. One way or another, it looks like poor Bud is going back into the medicine soup. But it's the only way to get rid of an internal infection.

Also, Input, I hope your back feels better soon. All these sudden water changes can't be helping.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has no appetite  Wormies just floating.

I added Kanamycin to his water via granules so as to not disturb him too much. Wiggle thermometer around to mix a bit as they dissolve. I suppose I'll change his water in the pm.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Poor Bud. I wish he would eat. Fingers crossed for you, Bud, and all my fishies are saying fishy prayers for you, even my Buddhist fish.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

He hasn't eaten at all that I can tell. He still had poop come out this morning. He is out on the surface in the middle of the bucket. He is maybe slightly more responsive and slightly less prone to jet away crazily, but maybe that's because I've gotten used to being more careful.

I'll change his water early evening. I'll have to work on getting it up to 84 before he's in it, but now I'm only using 1+ gallon.

---Medical Stress Coat, Epsom salt, Kanamycin, 84 degrees, very low light. Kanamycin/garlic bloodworms. Anything else?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Nope, you've got it all covered, Input. You're doing a fantastic job. No fish could ask for a better or more devoted owner than you.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Won't eat bloodworms like before, but they are soaked in garlic and Kanamycin. But he just ate a bunch of pellets. I tried one pellet soaked in garlic/Kanamycin...no way.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

All you can do is to keep trying. The best option for him is to interally consume the drugs, but the good news is that Kanamyacin is absorbed externally better than the other antibiotics. Like Darkmoon stated in the beginning, keep him on the med soup for no more 14 days. Hopefully he'll consume a worm or two soaked in some of the goodness within that time frame.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sadly, the meds taste pretty nasty, even with garlic. :/ Hopefully, he'll get hungry enough to eat medicated food. Keep trying and if necessary, up the garlic content. Sigh. Wish there was a way to shove the pellet down the throat, the way you give pills to cats and dogs.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I guess giving him the pellets made him less hungry and less likely to eat the worms for now 

I changed his soup-water tonight and tomorrow will wait him out all day with a freshly made batch of worms. Maybe feed one natural worm then a medicated worm. Hopefully being back in the meds and the epsom salt will knock down the nasties more than it knocks down Bud.

He seems a little more lively, but without the craziness, this is a positive difference. He stayed dark while in the cup, which is unusual, he always gets very light when in the 'inspection vessel'. His body is slightly dis-dented and he favors one side, but it somehow seems less pained than last night. Maybe it's just the way I see it. A lot of fin damage, and a spot or two, but maybe 24 hours with epsom salt has relieved some of the discomfort he's feeling. Maybe eating a bunch of pellets for the first time in a couple days has given him more energy.

Thanks again for the help


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bud can't be knocked down that easily.  The epsom salts probably have helped to leach out some of the excess fluids that are caused by bacterial infections so that's good that he seems to be more comfortable. 

Don't worry, it's hard feeding medicated food. My own guys won't eat their medicated worms either, so you and Bud aren't alone. You're doing great with him.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Maybe wait till he's hungry and give a clean worm, then a medicated worm I can trick him. I don't know if the garlic helps or not. I haven't put garlic in the new batch of Kanamycin worms I made for tomorrow.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I guess it's like feeding a finicky child, just keep trying different combinations. Supposedly, garlic is an appetite stimulant as well as immune booster but I guess if they really don't feel well, garlic is probably the last thing they want to smell. I know that's how I feel when I'm sick and I smell garlic.  Urgh, memories coming back. My dad drives like a madman so I got a little nauseated on my way to an SF Giants game. And guess where our seats were? Right by the garlic fries stand.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Today Bud followed my finger like he always did (which he hasn't done since the relapse, even when he ate all those pellets yesterday he didn't respond to my hand). So I ran and got the medicated (but no garlic) worms and he followed my hand and ate 4 of them, but not the 5th. So there is some Kanamycin injected into his little system directly today. I hope he will eat more later today before I change his bucket-o-soup this evening.

If he has ick, would the Kanamycin take care of that?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Ich is a parasite and there are only two ways that he could be exposed to it: Being in the tank with other fish or plant substrate that came from an infected tank. Does he have white spots now?? What makes you think he has ich?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

To answer your question: No. Kanamyacin in an antibiotic and doesn't have any effect on parasites.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:/ Ich now? Well . . . some hobbyists theorize that the ich parasite is always present in our tanks but the fish have built up a resistance. It's only when they are stressed (such as adding a new fish or, in this case an illness) that they become susceptible to the parasite and get an infestation. Introducing new things like new fish and plants is often enough to trigger an outbreak.

Ich looks like little tiny grains of sea salt stuck to the fish. If Bud truly does have ich, then the best way to treat it is with high heat and AQ salt. But a pic would help. 

Meanwhile, hurray that he ate some worms! Bud must not like Italian food with lots of garlic.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't know if Bud has icky. I'm just curious about a light spot on him. I'll cup him shortly to take a close look and try to get a good pic.

Bud followed my finger for the second time today, so I fed him another 4 med-worms. This is a record. He is staying dark as well. I'm not even sure this is a good sign or just one of the many variables that are occurring. I hope he gets better soon, I need help at work, the house is a mess even without the late night parties, and there's no one else here to sigh for deliveries.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If Bud has ich, you'll know for sure. Once you see it, it's hard to miss. But if he isn't clamped and rubbing on things, he's probably (hopefully!) fine. 

I'm so happy Bud is eating his medicated worms! My two boys can learn something from him. Go Bud! Hang in there, Input, once Bud is back to being Bud, everything will get better.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

If he does have ich, you may want to hold off treatment of it. Aquarium Salt will interfere with treating the internal infection since it will cause the retention of fluid when we want it to be released. The internal infection is a much more serious issue. In comparison ich is easy to treat and not very life threatening. But hopefully it is just some slime coat. As Sakura noted, ich is usually present in your tank but isn't a problem unless your fish's immune system is weakened. It is great news that he is eating! Keep it up Bud


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Bud is eating medicated worms!! Yea!! Woo! Hoo!! What great news. Come on Budster . . . hang in there!


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

I Swear Bud has a whole cheering squad rooting for him.

But no Bud, you can't have Anna come over, no matter how much she would flirt for you.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

The 'Rough Boy' ate about 9 medi-worms today. I'm not feeding him anymore tonight, though maybe I should. I think dark, quiet rest is important too. Hopefully he's Starving Marvin tomorrow morning.

Looking like a cat after a hard night in the gravel...top fin-gone, bottom fin-gone, tail fin-reduced, side fins-bedraggled, some scaley-fleks here and there. Overall, if girls like a scar on the face to make a man have character, then I believe Bud has more character than fish.








Bud is moving a bit more, and more easily, as well as less frantic.

*GO BUD!*


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yay Bud! *grabs pom poms* 

He does look a little worse for the wear but ladies do like a man who looks tough. Bud can just tell the girls he wrestled a cat. And won. 

Oh, but Silverfang, flirty little Anna would make the perfect nurse. XD "Your medicine, Mr. Bud."


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Wow. Poor Budster. My 7-yr old daughter said a prayer for him this morning. Expecting a miracle! GO TEAM BUD!!!!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud-date:
Guess he had enough worms yesterday. One medi-worm this morning and he wouldn't eat any all day. Tonight I gave him about 6 pellets. Gotta keep the Bud strength up. We'll try medi-worms tomorrow. I'll add garlic, if he won't eat, I'll make a new batch, maybe they only last a day or so with the meds. Normally 3 days is not a problem.

He looks about the same...does not appear any worse than yesterday or the day before. If he had continued to decline at the rate he was at, not only wouldn't there be a Bud, but in fact there would be a Bud Hole, sucking in nearby matter at an ever increasing rate, until the entire universe would eventually be engulfed.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Haha, Bud Hole. Well, it's good that Bud is not worse then, for his sake and the entire universe's.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud ate a couple pellets and a worm...that's it today. I'll make new medi-worms in the morning. He now has a fuzzy spot on his side and his damaged fins are the same. He's acting somewhat normal, but didn't eat hardly anything today. I've been changing his drug-soup every night. He doesn't list over to his side, or struggle. He swims really well again.

What is Buds plan? Sigh.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

He's still eating, which is a good sign. He hasn't given up. Also great news that he doesn't struggle or list over to one side. Keep your eyes on the positive - as hard as it is.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Don't give up. Keep in the Kanamycin as long as you can (I think DarkMoon said 14 days?) and keep trying to shove those worms down him. You're doing great, no betta could ask for more devoted care. We're all rooting for you two! Go Bud! Fight Bud! Win Bud!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I'm jonesin' w/o my daily Bud update. How's our boy?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

The Bud has been eating fairly regularly (mostly medicated worms and some pellets), he is fickle, but I assume that's because he can't possibly feel good. Today his rays have a clearish, fuzzy look to them (see pic several posts ago, rays were clean)...I'm thinking maybe this is slime coat or a turn around in his specific situation. He has energy when he needs it, and he is still skittish and not terribly hand friendly. He did eat a few worms from my finger though. He has not visibly deteriorated for a few days. 

There is one item that concerns me. On his back, behind his head, in front of where his top fin used to be, there is an area where about 8-9 scales have sloughed off and I can see his pink skin. I know this is NOT GOOD.

All parameters are the same: 84 degrees, Kanamycin, 1.5 gals, very dim light, medical stress coat, epsom salt, medicated bloodworms.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I'm sticking with the good news that he's still eating and even better news that he's eating medicated worms. He obviously has a horrific case of rot. Thanks for the update. Ugh . . .


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Exactly how big is Bud, Input? He's pretty hefty, right? I don't know, he's in some of the strongest meds possible and yet now he's losing scales too. While I would definitely run the idea by DarkMoon first, I'm kind of toying with the idea of finding a wet vet to give Bud an antibiotic injection. Normally, I don't recommend this approach because it can be so stressful for a little betta. But Bud is a king and definitely not your average betta boy. If he doesn't improve, this may be our next and rather drastic step. Again, though, I would run this by DarkMoon and see what she recommends, as she is our resident veterinary expert. 

I can only hope that the scales sloughing off means necrotic tissue fell off so healthy new tissue can grow back in.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Sakura, I was thinking the same thing. I almost posted it but then thought against it since I'm not the experienced health person. I'm at least glad to know that I was going down the right road. I agree. I say run it by Darkmoon and see what she says. I'm also hoping the scales are a byproduct and not an advancing situation. Geez . . . what is going on with this poor little guy?


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Input, do you have a fish vet (or a vet willing to try) in your area? 

The scales could have either been rubbed off physically (maybe from darting around or etc...) or they could have been sloughed as a result of the internal infection... they should grow back. You may want to pick up some Kordon Fish Protector for the sloughed area... it really aids regrowth and may help prevent an open sore. 

Aside from injectable antibiotics the only other thing you could try is making an even more complex medicated soup by adding Tetracycline. It is a safe combination that would make for a very broad spectrum treatment.

Keep positive, he's eating. Having an appetite at all is a good sign.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I can go get Tetracycline right now.

AND/OR

I do have a vet that I can call, unfortunately for me they are (in my opinion) very poor with people and I took Smoochie there    

Bud ate less yesterday and is very quiet so far today. I'll take a break from things and spend some time with him and see what his little fish status is.

Thank you.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I wish wet vets weren't so few and far between. DarkMoon, I'm so glad you're here for us!

If the vet doesn't seem reputable, I wouldn't risk it. It's too bad UC Davis is so far but I wouldn't risk stressing Bud out by taking him on such a long car trip. Maybe someone at the Monterey Bay Aquarium knows of a good vet? It wouldn't hurt to call and pick their brains. Surely they deal with sick fish at the aquarium and would know of a vet. Or a biologist or someone.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Hmmm...the aquarium, I always saw it as an endless supply of fishy entertainment, and a place to get fishy dates 
I can inquire with them I suppose. 

Bud just had a few nibbles so I am about to go get Tetracycline.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hang in there Bud!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Just came in to give you and Bud a hug.. keep your spirits up boys.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates, your avatar gets cuter and cuter. Bud, look at the cute avatar! *trying to perk Bud up*


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Myates . . . Girl! We've missed you! Bud's doing a good job, isn't he? Poor little pork chop. He's just tore up, forced to eat nasty med worms and living in a dim bucket. We are throwing him the BIGGEST party he's ever seen when all this junk is over. We MUST have girls with pom poms.

Input, Sakura's suggestion of contacting the Aquarium is a great idea. I have yet to find a wet vet that is willing to even talk with me. I think there's only one actual fish vet in my area and they just don't respond. It's a bummer. Darkmoon's the bomb. When she's done with school we'll be begging her to move to Northern California and open an office with Sakura


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

lol thanks Sakura and Flowers- I'll have to find a cute girl fish for Bud to put as my AV just for him  I've been poking my head in and keeping up with everything. He's in great hands, all of you and input is a great person going so far for Bud.. Bud couldn't be a luckier fish right now. 

Someone say party? Heeeey macarena!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I haven't done the macarena in years! I wonder if I still remember? *shuffles around* Yeah, DarkMoon, we're begging you to move out west.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Is it just me, or do I see Jean Simmons in the background at a Macarena party??? This is going to be a throw down! Woo! Hoo! I have high hopes for you Budster, so I'm ordering the disco ball for the big shebang.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You saw him too? Glad I wasn't the only one. I can bring my ABBA cd to the party but that's about it for me and dance music.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Uh...the macaroni??? That sucked the very first day the video of the portly hispanic guys in suits singing was broadcast. Oh wait, I forgot, you are all girls and you often find weird and creepy things amusing sometimes. Ok, I'll grant a free pass on that one. I was out of the country when that came out...I have stories  But posting the pic with the faux-Kiss-lead-and-family-jewels-reality-celeb is just way too much. He IS an interesting guy though.

That does bring up a fascinating topic. Have any of you watched television (other than newscasts) in other countries? Hilarious.

After reading you getting so lit up about these things, I'm afraid if there is ever a BettaFish group meeting, there should be NO alcohol, NO cameras, and NO proof of ANYTHING. Dangerous to have you all in the same room together.

Oh yea, one thing I'll never admit: I sing to ABBA in the truck when I'm alone.

Bud has been hiding mostly today, had some nibbles, and is now basking in a 4 layer deep cocktail of drugs.
I can hear him singing the Grateful Dead...


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bud is probably tripping like crazy on all his meds. Wait for him to start headbanging to Bohemian Rhapsody.

I've been singing Christmas carols in Japanese. I sometimes watch the news on the NHK and I love the BBC.

No cameras? Really? *sneaks in spy cam*


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

... I didn't even notice Jean Simmons back there.....

.....
...
..
.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Simmons is creepin' lol. And I watch NHK too from time to time. I love Japanese News shows haha Irish news wasn't nearly as entertaining. 

Well you guys have all the IBC competitions so maybe one day I'll end up in California. But I'd miss the snow too much! 

Veterinarians from busier (and more advanced) hospitals are sometimes willing to research so that they would be able to administer injections. There aren't any fish vets in my area so I was very close to having my mother (small animal vet-no exotics) give my dropsy inflated goldfish baytril injections but he recovered with his medical bath and oral meds. That could have made for an interesting experience though. There is a video on YouTube showing how to give goldfish injections of baytril. Shouldn't be much different and doesn't look very difficult. Granted the fish is a bit bigger but Bud is a giant. 

Keep a close eye on Bud to make sure he doesn't react badly to the new cocktail. Let us know if you notice any changes in the sloughed area.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

We have snow! Tahoe has lots.  And uhm . . . oh shoot, they had the Winter Olympics there back in like . . . er, long ago. Oh. Squaw Valley. We have Squaw Valley. So, whaddya say? C'mon, DarkMoon, be a Cali girl. 

One vet at my clinic has attempted to sedate fish before but apparently (s)he had trouble finding the right spot to get the sedatives in. I was told this when I took my fish in to be euthanized. Granted, Anderson was teeeeeeeny compared to Bud. And also granted, most people don't take bettas in, they take the more expensive koi, goldfish, and cichlids. All good, large fish. 

Where was I going with this? Er . . . *twiddles thumbs again*


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

You don't have to watch International TV to roar hysterically. I lived in Montana for 5 years and I'd roar every night I watched the news. Oh, the simple things in life. I don't own an Abba cd, but I'll admit to Journey and an occasional ZZ Top on a long road trip. Darkmoon, if you find yourself traveling West, you MUST give us the heads up. I know we'd all like the opportunity to thank you in person for all the guidance, direction and life saving advice you've provided to all of us over here. Poor Bud . . . I hope he isn't seeing multiple colors. He certainly won't be allowed to drink any alcohol at his party. I can only imagine the stories and the names he'd call us after all the drugs he's had to sit in.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I once said "I love ZZ Top" and people laughed and said all their songs sound the same. I responded, "Yea, when you get it right, don't change it"...LOL

After 15 hours in the new mix, Bud is out and about (a little), following my finger, ate a couple medi-worms and a couple pellets. Yesterday he was hiding and ate almost nothing. I'm encouraged, we'll see how the day plays out into the evening.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh yes, local news can be just as fun. Ours has some lovely tech glitch nearly every evening and one year, they sent the one guy who hated snow the most to the mountains every single time there was a storm. He never stopped complaining about it. Incidentally, he's no longer working at our station. XD

Yay Bud! Keep up the good work! Sure, the bucket is probably spinning right now but a little swim is good for you.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has been out, which is huge after his hidey-hole yesterday. He's eaten at least half a dozen worms and about as many pellets. It's his best performance so far.

I may cup him, but I don't think there is much of a change since last night.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If there's no change, then let's not cup him so we don't stress him. He's making such good progress, I don't want to set him back further just so I can enjoy seeing his handsome face up close. Yay, Bud, I'm so happy you're eating! *wipes away tears of joy*


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I usually have been changing his water out every 24 hours late evening/night. He is doing well today-tonight, so I'll not change it until morning (36 hours). He's eaten, so the food isn't fouling the water until it passes through his little fish system.

It may seem the tetracycline has had an effect even after a short time...I hope so. I'll have a better idea throughout the day tomorrow.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

36 hours should be okay for the Budster. He's a big guy but it should take a lot longer than that for 1.5g of water to get toxic. I sure hope the tetracycline is helping. Go BUD!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Another good day for Bud. Following finger and eating. Got a little fickle, but since he ate a medium amount, I didn't tolerate it. We'll see how much I can cram down his throat on Saturday.

He's on a morning water change schedule now.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

GO BUDSTER!!! What *great* news!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

More improvement. Bud actually copped a bit of 'tude. I'm not impressed. He would be wise to remember I outweigh him by about 195 pounds, outreach him by a mile, and eat sushi regularly.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

haha It's great to here that he is giving you some 'tude! Keep it up


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

YEEEES!! I'm hoping that Bud made a leap and tried to bite off a limb  That is *fabulous* news. Bud is my hero.


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Bud is probably getting impatient, he's been pampered so much he's expecting a female to be delivered up to him for a bit of fun. He's probably holding out for the -other- companionship!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yeah, I agree! So come on Silverfang, plate up Anna. I'm sure she'd be thrilled with the Bud the Stud. He's like the macho, commando, super hero who's been beat to a pulp and still gets up to win the fight. Every girls dream . . .


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

haha, she would love too, if she didn't attack him, she's living the single life for a reason


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

hahaha! Aint that the truth! After my female VT latched on to my finger today during a water change, I wondered how these fish ever breed. Have you seen Bud??! He scares ME and he's only 2" long. I can't imagine what it would be like for some unsuspecting female who got dumped into the tank with him - YIKES!!


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

I tried to introduce her into my sorority... 2 minutes, three girls bitten, on the side, not fins. She's chilling in a QT container again. And striping and barring and getting eggy. The hussy. Bud would be in love


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> Yeah, I agree! So come on Silverfang, plate up Anna. I'm sure she'd be thrilled with the Bud the Stud. He's like the macho, commando, super hero who's been beat to a pulp and still gets up to win the fight. Every girls dream . . .


Looks like he's been through a blender-battle, and coming back for more, is that dreamy enough?



Silverfang said:


> haha, she would love too, if she didn't attack him, she's living the single life for a reason


Sounds like every girl I've tried to date...



flowerslegacy said:


> I can't imagine what it would be like for some unsuspecting female who got dumped into the tank with him - YIKES!!


Exactly like every female that has been trapped next to me on a plane. It's brutal.

*Bud-Date 12-10-11*
Bud has been fed WAY TOO much today. Pellets and non-med worms. I just added a smaller dose of Kanamycin to the worm for tomorrows food orgy. Might as well try getting the juice back into his pie hole again. His eating was aggressive, which is how he was eating before he got the damn Ebola virus. His sloughed off scales have been growing back. No further deteriorating is noticed. No regrowth either.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*round of applause for Bud* I'm happy to hear all this good news about the Budster! Looks like the Tetracycline is helping. 

Aww, Input, being next to you on a plane can't be any worse than being stuck next to my brother. *shudders* From CA to Rhode Island with multiple delays. I was so thankful I don't resemble my brother in the least (adopted, totally different race). 

I think it's time Anna and Bud start exchanging letters, don't you, Silverfang? ;-)


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Carefully monitored letters, she's toss in some pictures, the little hussy.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Don't ask...


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hahahahaha! Bud! You got your work cut out for you! Check out that pretty lady!

"Momma wants you better soon . . . " Hahahahaha! That's classic! Perfect for the Budster!

Anna girl, you better step in here and make a stand for your man!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh Anna can have Bud.. this one charges way too much- saw her add on Aquabid and her per hour rates just too much!


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

woah! don't think my sweet little Anna can compete with that!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Anna's a hussy but not like that. :shock: *falls over laughing* Hey Bud, they say laughter is the best medicine so we're piling up the yucks for ya!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud=Eating MACHINE!
Medicated worms, pellets, you name it, he eats it. No sniffing around, looking, bumping it. Just INHALO! The Superhero Fish! Able to inhale food without stopping! Americas newest weapon against anything! Bud eats it!

New growth on top fin, perhaps a little on rear fin. Bottom...we'll see what happens there. That's where the most damage has been.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, Bud! Gimme some fin baby. *high five* That's what I want to hear. Don't know if the kanamycin kicked in or it was the tetracycline but something's working. Go Bud!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I went back through the posts and it appears I started putting Kanamycin back into the bucket on Nov. 30, so Bud is at 11 days as of tonight in Kanamycin. I'm assuming I should stop on the 14th day but keep the Tetracycline, epsom salt? I believe he still has some swim bladder issues but not as bad as before. He has to reposition his body to aim down before he swims lower. Coming up is not an issue.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Epsom salt can be used long-term so no worries there. If he has to, he can stay in epsom salt for the rest of his life although I doubt it'll come to that. I would guess you continue with the tetracycline but I'd double-check with DarkMoon on everything. I think she said 14 days max for the kanamycin so you're right about that part.


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Bud is a CHAMP! go bud!


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

With him doing so well I'm a bit hesitant to take him off of Kanamycin just yet... I guess, continue with both meds until Friday and we'll see how he's feeling and decide wether to stop the Kanamycin or not. We don't want him to have a relapse. Continue with Epsom salt as long as needed.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you for the update info. Bud is eating "aggressively" meaning that he follows my hand, jumps and hits my finger, eats every piece of food, no wishy-washiness about eating. I'll continue everything through Friday. I've been changing his water 24-36 hours, so he's been getting fresh, strong doses constantly. He is swimming better as well.

A relapse would most likely be devastating, I can't imagine him getting worse again.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh no, Bud can't get worse again. We won't allow it. And the collective will of one guy and about five women is stronger than fin rot. So there. Take that, fin rot. pbbbt.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

You tell 'em Sakura!! I pound my high heels at you fin rot!!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has clearly gotten new growth on his top and rear fin. I'm not sure I've ever seen new growth. So maybe he never got rid of the fin rot and it was just lingering....

As for his underside...that mostly touched his body, so I'm not thinking there will be much growing there. I've not seen his 2 ventrals in what seems like forever. As long as his 2 little Nemo directional thruster fins fill out, he should be ok.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Oh Bud. He's such a man. I can already see him showing his battle scars to his buddies, " . . . and this one I got while in the bucket BEFORE he gave me a bowl to hide in." I'm tellin' ya, you're gonna have to beat the women off. Just don't let him wear a wig - women hate wigs (or uhhh, anal wigs, or uhhh, ventral wigs, or uhhh, you know what I mean)


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Forget Anna, I have to introduce bud to Raven. She's my war horse of an alpha.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

They can share battle stories over a romantic dinner of bloodworms.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is well. Eating pellets only today. I will uber-medicate worms tonight for him to eat tomorrow. He is swimming much better as well and his spirit is getting to where he seems in a better space. I probably may be feeding him too much since he started eating again, I'll try to be careful. He got pretty thin for 2 weeks, so maybe it's not too bad to catch up on the grub.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Maybe Bud got hungry while sick. What do they say, starve a fever, feed a cold or something like that? Just watch and make sure he isn't bloating up at the belly. But otherwise, hurray for Bud and his appetite!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

He looked misshapen, but I couldn't tell if he was getting skinny, organs/internals messed up, just torn to shreds...dunno. I'll try to not feed too much from now on. I don't remember how much/little he's supposed to have.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Well, he's bigger than the average betta so the amounts that most of us are used to feeding are probably not enough for Bud. You know him best so you go by what you feel is right for him. If anything, fewer pellets, more worms. I'm just glad Bud is hungry again. When a betta stops eating, it's never a good sign.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Buds looking much better. The new growth is really kicking in, and he is very active in his bucket. I've increased the water level to 2 gallons to give him a little more area. Eating half pellets, half medicated worms today. Tomorrow will be almost all worms. He is voracious again. I tried to give him several smaller feedings rather than 2 large ones.

I just changed his medicated-soup-water after a whopping 48 hours, and am prepared to leave him in the 2 gallons for another 48 hours. Not sure how/when to decrease the medicated water (Kanamycin and Tetracycline) and the 84 degree water. The epsom salt and medical dose Stress Coat + I'm not concerned with.

I'm not going to put him in the 15 gallon, bright, bachelor pad until I'm done with the meds. I'm also a bit unhappy with his bachelor pad, and wondering if something in there is facilitating his illness. Is it possible the wood helps cause these problems? Bud had no issues until after the decorations started going in. The plants were already there, the black sand is inert, the moss ball is possibly guilty? This time around, I have not been tossing in food to keep the nitrogen cycle going, I'll test the water this weekend to see what it tests at. Is there anything I should do to make sure there is nothing in the tank that can cause this stuff again?

I do need to deal with the ph/plants/Seachem Flourish situation that never got worked out before Bud was getting ill again. No ph down though...the water got hazy for half a day.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Some years ago, when I had huge tanks with mbunas, I never had experienced a sick fish. A couple disappeared without trace, but no sickness. Different fish, different water, different setups. Wish I had pictures, the tanks were show stoppers. <sniff sniff>

My goal is to get Bud back in training (he's doing a triathalon in the spring) and get his bachelor pad up to snuff. I have some reservations about his tank. Interestingly, I have done nothing with the tank since I put Bud in the Bucket-of-Shame, and the tank looks exactly the same, no algae, the plants just hanging out, and the water is room temp. at most...around 60 degrees.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so glad Bud is making such awesome progress! Go Bud! 

For his bachelor pad . . . all that I can really think of is boiling the wood again and sterilizing any other decorations. I suppose it's possible bacteria came in on one of the plants but usually, plants harbor parasites. Mostly I think Bud had the bacteria in his system all along and something, possibly the pH issue, stressed him out enough that his immune system became compromised and the bacteria took over.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bacteria don't pay no stink'in rent.

Get the hell out.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I agree Input!! *POW* Bang! *uuff* SMACK!

HIT THE ROAD BACTERIA! We don't need no stinkin' party crashers . . .


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, I may be getting some cichlids in the spring. If I do, can I PM you and ask for advice? I want socolofi but I can't find any locally so I may have to do brichardi or convicts. They aren't mbuna but maybe you can help me get the tank set up for them.

*hands Input blowtorch* Here, this works well against party crashers, especially microscopic ones.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

That is awesome news, it is so wonderful to see him improving so much!! You can take him off of Kanamycin at your next water change but leave the Tetracycline a bit longer. If anything it will help fin regrowth. Keep giving him medicated worms for another 5-7 days. We don't want to risk anything! You can probably lower the temp to 72*F early next week. That shouldn't make much of a difference to him. 

As for the bachelor pad... Do a really good siphoning. Internal infections can usually be traced back to a bacterial colony in the tank. If you have any hollow decor or rocks make sure you clean under them. You can also treat his tank with you same medicated soup but that would probably kill any cycle you have left. The good news is that usually, when left without a fish for long periods of time, some infectious things die off...


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Maybe a new cycle would clear up the pH issue as well? We never did pin that one down. But that would mean either cycling with Bud (stress!) or leaving him in the bucket for another month (stress!). I don't think Bud will like any of those options . . .


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

This is a huge issue.

I can't take the chance of the buggies still being in the bachelor pad and affecting Bud again. Period.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I don't blame you. If you take out your filter media and keep it moist (maybe feed it a little), there might be enough bacteria left to jumpstart the cycle if you decide to dump the medicine soup into Bud's pad. With even a semi-mature filter, I would think you'd cut at least half of the cycling time.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Do you know anyone with a cycled tank? You could completely sanitize your tank then "seed" it with gravel from a cycled tank. That shortens the cycling period noticeably.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I 'seeded' a tank once, it worked out very well. I don't have any avenue for that here (that I'm aware of) but I'll make a couple calls tomorrow.

I'll take a good look at everything tomorrow and Bud is due for his 48 hour water change. I'll stop the Kanamycin, but keep everything else in the bucket... in the bachelor pad I'll do a 95% water change and cleaning, then treat with the Kanamycin + Tetracycline and put a towel over the tank for 2-3 days. Then another 95% water change and remove the driftwood. Does that sound like that would take care of the possible tank nasties? I'll boil the driftwood before returning into the tank.


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

I just wanted to say... GO BUD!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Silverfang said:


> I just wanted to say... GO BUD!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Exit, stage left..

Glad Bud is doing better... rah rah?


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh so now my post doesn't make sense.. but!

*runs and slides on knees onto stage* I'm ba-ack with Bud's cheer squad!

Go Bud!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates, :rofl: I'm going to fall off my chair laughing one of these days.

Input, that sounds like a good plan. What size cartridge does your Eclipse run? I have size A and whatever it is that goes in the Penguin 200. I think C or something. I can send you a used cartridge for you to put in your filter to help jumpstart it. And I'm sure any of the ladies here would be happy to donate gravel.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I almost forgot to ask. How is Bud's fin regrowth?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I did Buds 100% bucket-o-water change tonight and witheld the Kanamycin. I increased his swimming area to 2 gallons. I'm trying to lower his temp a degree or two a day from 84 down to the mid-70s. I will make another batch of Kanamycin worms, that's all he's eaten the last 3 days.

He's looking pretty good, almost all signs of being torn up are gone or reduced. Fins are showing new growth. I'm pretty certain there is nothing left to grow back on his underside though, this last round moved quickly. 

I will keep him in the bucket at 2 gallons for this week. I need to monitor him and keep the Tetracycline regime up for a few more days. I need to absolutely decide what is going to happen with the bachelor pad. He partied WAAAYYY too hard in there, and it almost wiped him out. Being in rehab has been tough on everybody. And the paparazzi!!!! 

Black sand, driftwood, rocks, plants, ceramic thingy. Over 7 ph, and have Seachem Excel. The bulb allows the plants to maintain, so I assume it's ok. Change all water, I think I could lower the water from 15 gallons to 10 gallons then medicate (Kanamycin and Tetracycline) for a few days under a blanket. Then change water again, then boil the driftwood and rocks. Maybe pop in some cycled stuff from another tank. Then give Bud a welcome home, non-party. Yea, that sounds like about a week of stuff.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bud certainly does keep you busy, doesn't he? I'm glad his fins are regrowing but I think you're right, he may never regrow the fin where the rot touched his body. But it'll just be like a scar or something he can brag about to the ladies. 

That sounds like a good plan for sterilizing the tank of bacteria bugggers. You can stir up the sand too and make sure there aren't any pockets of stagnant air that may be hiding bacteria also. Hate those pockets of stagnant air, they killed two of my cories once. 

You can try to give Bud a non-party but I don't think it'll last that way for long. Bud has the party spirit. We'll let Silverfang's Anna bring the champagne.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I may just do a complete tank dump since I'm not concerned about maintaining the bacteria and will medicate to kill everything, but the black sand makes that a lot more difficult than with gravel.

I've been meaning to take care of some hard water deposits, so maybe dumping the tank and super cleaning it, bleach, boiling water, medicating, flushing, and a final blow torch glaze will do the job.

Regardless, the entire tank will be dealt with inside and out.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bud says not to forget the party streamers and the wet bar while you're at it.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

These pictures are NOT current. These are from the first time he was in the bucket for a while and I had put him back in his tank. He started flaring! I was totally unprepared for it, hence the crappy pics. You can see the piece of bottom fin missing from the first fin rot. His bottom fin has now been eaten away. I doubt he will flare again when he goes back. He now knows thats his reflection.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Has his entire bottom fin been eaten or just that one small spot up by his ventrals? Bud is scary when he flares.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

MYATES!! So help me!! I choked on my Christmas cake when I opened that post! You went from dogs to well . . . dogs! HAHAHA!!

Input, I'm so jealous - I wish I could dump out every tank I have and start over. I'd drive you down some filter floss, but I'm fighting cyano bacteria and it's in every tank I have. Sakura - do you send your filter wet?? Just curious. If I didn't have to re-cycle 8 tanks I'd do the boil, bleach and re-do myself. Oh yeah, don't boil your rocks! There's a thread over on Tropical Fish Keeping where some folks have experienced some rocks actually exploding. I think it's listed as a sticky under 'Fish Care'. I'm with Sakura . . . you better set up that wet bar or you'll get Bud flaring at you in anger and well, nobody needs that. The pics alone scare me to death. I'm so glad Bud is *finally* better. For a while there I was nervous every time I opened the thread. I think we're all finally breathing a sigh of relief!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates is great for her comedic timing and for her endless resources of finding pics.  Flowers, at least you didn't almost spew hot tea all over your keyboard like I did. Now there's a lovely mental image. Thank goodness Macbooks are pretty sturdy.

I would send the filter cartridge in a ziplock, damp, maybe with a pinch of food to keep the ammonia fed. If I'm reading my info right, it looks like the Eclipse 1 hood takes G cartridges. I have A and C. Right now, the C is the most mature because I only just replugged in my Penguin 100 tonight after my AquaClear started rattling. But I could send an A cartridge and it should fit in the filter along with the regular cartridge. I could also send a bag of AquaClear BioMax from my sorority's filter. It would fit in the filter too. I know because I shoved the BioMax from the AquaClear into the filter I just plugged in since I have to do a mini-cycle. I'm rambling now. 

I think a tiki-themed wet bar would be awesome in Bud's pad. Who can picture Bud with a lei? I can!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

The tiki-themed wet bar is a MUST. A bubbling volcano couldn't hurt either. Heck, you could go for the Nemo theme and name it "Mount-Wanna-Hock-A-Luggie". Just don't get a shrimp and name it Jacque. Bud would have him eaten within 10 minutes. *shivers*


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh, I like the bubbling volcano idea too. This is sounding more and more like fun.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Awww gee... I try :-D

Bud needs one of these aquariums- Amazing Aquariums

I so want the multi-bubble one (2nd to last) for one of my bettas lol


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh yeah, I'm loving the bubble one. Although I'm also wondering how the heck I'd clean it too. Same goes for the telephone booth. How'd they get those plants in there, bungee jump down to the bottom? Weight them down, then pour sand in? Curiosity is going to make this cat stay up all night. Oh wait. I already did. Stay up all day, too.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, I mentioned this to Flowers because it controls cyano but you may want to consider it too because it eradicates bacteria. UV sterilizers are basically lights you put in the tank and it takes out bacteria, algae, and other micro nuisances. 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-supplies/uv-sterilizer/ps/c/3578/4393


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I used UV sterilizers on my mbuna tanks, so I'm familiar. I'd need to see how to plumb a unit with the Eclipse, but if that could make the difference....


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'd certainly feel confident that all the bacteria was eradicated with a UV unit. Could save you from having to dump the sand too.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Uv sterilizer with an Eclipse...not seeing how to have one hooked up. Maybe there is something new and small...any ideas?

I've made no effort on the bachelor pad at this point. 

Bud is eating like usual. Medi-worms a couple pellets, good thing caterpillars are out of season.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm not familiar with UV sterilizers at all, just that they get rid of bacteria and cyanobacteria. I was under the impression you just suction-cupped them to the tank wall and that was that.

Go Bud! Glad he's eating like a champ.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

The sterilizer needs the water to pass through it at a particular rate. Fast=bacteria, etc, slow=parasites. So you need a pump to move the water through it and the light is uv so you don't want it to be visible.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ah, I get it. So I'm guessing they usually hook up the filter somehow? Would a powerhead or an airline hose/airpump work? 

We can always chip in to get Bud a cool looking pair of shades to protect his eyes. Armani or Ralph Lauren?

EDIT:
This one apparently can hook up to a powerhead.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4393+7999&pcatid=7999


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud will wear only one type of eye protection: A battering ram helmet.

No foo-foo silliness here. You "did" see his flaring pics, right?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Kanamycin worms through xmas, and tetracycline as well. Lowered temp to 78-ish. Keeping Bud in 2 gals. Changing about 48 hours. I'm planning on keeping the medical Stress Coat dose until his fins stop regrowing, so probably another 2 weeks. I'll continue the epsom salt until someday.....I'll experiment decreasing it after he is settled in the bachelor pad. But at this point I'm not too sure what I'm going to do about it.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I can picture Bud in a battering ram helmet, all right. Let everyone quake with fear when they see Bud the Warrior! Chaaaaarge!

Sounds like a good plan. Good thing Bud is a king. An ordinary betta probably wouldn't be able to take the punishment Bud has and live to tell about it.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Today:

Bud looks 'good' for the first time. Acts very tough, so he must be making progress.

Now for the bachelor pad....


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

that is awesome news! Go BUD Go!


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

All right, Bud! Way to go!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud looks and acts solid. I changed him into non-medicated water in his bachelor bucket today. Just epsom salt and medical dose Stress Coat till I think his fins are back as much as they can. I may slowly start decreasing the epsom salt in a couple weeks once I'm sure everything else ok. If he has any issues I'll keep using it. I'm now feeding non-medicated bloodworms as well and around 78 degrees. I'l keep an eye on him every morning and every evening till the end of the week and see how he looks. That will give me time to decide what to do with his pad. My gusto got beaten out of me with Bud getting so sick after I started sprucing up his tank. It's just been running all this time, I have no idea what the water is doing. I think it's a tear down and start over project. Not thrilled about how things have gone.

I want to thank everyone again for all the effort, Bud is doing his Bud thing because of all of you.

The Bud abides.


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Input, that is just AWESOME news, I am so happy to hear about Bud. Doing so well after being so bad is just amazing.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

After seeing so many sad cases lately, it's so wonderful to have a successful recovery. And it couldn't have happened to a better fish than Bud.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I am so happy for the two of you, it is great to hear that Bud is doing so well! 

As for the tank, something similar happened to me recently too. It is very disheartening but I'm sure you'll soon find it exciting again now that Bud is better.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

No better news could be received than Bud's recovery! GO TEAM BUD! I'm sure I speak for all of us that Bud's thread has been truly inspiring, fun, inspirational, frustrating and incredible. I know I'll miss logging on to check his status. He's become a part of our daily lives! I understand the tank frustration because I'm sitting in the middle of the same issues myself. It's truly disheartening but we'll figure it out - our bettas are worth it! Thanks Gunnar - your loyalty to Bud was a high-level example for all of us. Please post final pics when he's back to his full glory. I second the motion . . . . Bud abides.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I too am in the tank conundrum. Except I did manage to tear mine down, in the process losing 6 fish. Filling it up again . . . yeah, that part won't be so fun. Logging on to find out Bud was doing so much better sure cheered me up. I'm with Flowers, I'll miss this thread. Even though I'm happy Bud is all better, I'll miss not hearing about his parties and his wild nights.

Gunnar, you're an inspiration to us all. Please, stay in touch.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud was slow to eat today. I cupped him (I didn't cup him yesterday like I said I would) and he has fin deterioration again, the new growth is disappearing and showing the rays.

He is in his bucket that has been medicated. I even washed it out. I can't believe this. I'm putting him into Tetracycline now.

Please offer me something. Anything. I really can't believe this.


----------



## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Maybe he's just come to love the bucket? *hopeful*


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Now I know I said I'd miss you two and to stay in touch, but Bud, this is NOT what I meant. Oh Bud, what's going on with you?


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Darkmoon!!!!!


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh noes  What in the world is making his fins do that again? 

Grrr poor little guy. I think Bud and No Name should start a support group for bettas with chronic illnesses.. poor Bud


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is not hungry today, an unenthusiastic bite or two and is mostly quiet and hiding. His fins are worse today. I had added the Tetracycline and got the temp up to 80-81 and just have another little notch up. I reduced the water to 1 gallon.

I don't know if I should do the Kanamycin? 

It's grey outside today. It's grey inside as well 

I really wanted to never log onto the thread ever again


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input, Sakura sent Darkmoon a message, asking her to logon to our thread again. Bud is a little advanced for all of us and we need her to direct you. We're all bummed out over Bud. I'm know we were all looking forward to new pics of Bud in his pad with healthy fins. *heavy sighs from all*


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:/ I tried to PM DarkMoon too but her mailbox is full. Being the only bona fide fish vet onsite makes her a busy girl. Kinda like being the only vet for a hundred miles around. Like Flowers said, Bud is beyond us all. How is the actual rot, is he still losing fin at a fairly advanced pace?

If we don't hear back from DarkMoon by tomorrow, I'm going to take the heavy responsibility of suggesting he go back into the kanamycin and I'll take the blame if it backfires. I just don't want the rot to go internal again.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

It isn't my fault that you guys keep filling my inbox! 

Ah Bud, you are handsome enough that you don't need to do these things to get our attention! Ok... We must not have killed off the infection entirely. Let's stick to Tetracycline first. I'm also worried about the effects of using medications for so long... If there isn't any improvement in the next few days then we'll add on Kanamycin or a different anti-bacterial in case the bacteria in question have become resistant. 

How long was he medicine free?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Kanamycin in the 18th, Tetracycline on the 26th. Ate Kanamycin worms trough the 26th. Was looking and acting GREAT! Very rapid turn around.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Unfortunately the turn around tends to be pretty quick when the bacteria isn't completely killed off.... the most resistant bacteria come back with a vengeance. Which may make it more difficult to treat the second time around... At least he got a few days in clean water though. Let us know if you see any changes.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Should I put Kanamycin back in???


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

DarkMoon17 said:


> It isn't my fault that you guys keep filling my inbox!


*sheepish grin* Hehe, but Doctor DarkMoon, as the only fish doctor around, you're sort of always on call.  But thanks, DarkMoon, for helping us out. You are the best! I feel like I owe you a vet bill for all that you do for us. *hugs*

Input, Bud, hang in there, you two. Bud, now is the time to show us what you're really made of. Knock us right off our feet with your strength and budliness. C'mon, pal, you can do it! Go Bud Go! Go Bud Go!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Just stick to Tetracycline first. Darkmoon said that if there isn't any improvement in the next few days then you'll add on Kanamycin (or perhaps a different anti-bacterial). If you don't see improvement in the next few days, check in and see if Darkmoon has any other anti-bacterial she'd suggest vs Kanamycin. Hang on Budster. Once this is all over you'll have super-power bacterial fighting power. Hmmmm. Super Powers . . . 

RAMBUD!! Resister of all Bacteria!!


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm scared for Bud. He's not hungry today. I'm getting temp upnyob84 again. I hope he eats tomorrow. This is 180 degrees difference from 48 hours ago. I was feeling bad I didn't have his bachelor pad set up 

I can't believe this. We came so far through so much.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

C'mon Bud. You've got a reputation to uphold. You're the one and only BUDSTER! 

DarkMoon did say that the second go around was going to be harder to fight.  But Bud can do it. He's BUD.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

I thought I kept him in the soup longer than prescribed too


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I can't believe it could be that freakin' resistant. What is this crazy rot, anyway? Some kind of superbug?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Input, this long silence is making me nervous . . . I'm afraid to ask, but I have to. How is Bud? *anxious*


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

More fin deterioration. When I changed Buds water and added Kanamycin to everything else this morning. He's not hungry, only a bite or two.

Tomorrow I'll try to feed him all day in hopes he eats.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh no! C'mon, Bud! You can do it! You're the Budster! 

Are you back to the kanamycin worms, too?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Kanamycin worms start tomorrow.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

C'mon, Bud. Just a few little med-soaked bloodworms? For us? Please? We'll send you a pinup calendar of sexy girl bettas if you do. 

You're doing an awesome job, Input. No betta could ask for a more devoted caretaker than Bud. I just can't believe the turn of events, though.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Darkmoon, do you reccommend any other med? Any new directions? Hang tough Input. You've got to be exhausted of all of this.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has surprisingly eaten about 4-5 Kananycin worms. He's gotta be hungry after the last couple days. He is staying in his hidey-cup, but charges out for a worm then right back in. It could be worse. I'll chage his 1 gallon soup tonight after 24 hours. Medication goes much further when you medicate only 1 gallon.

He has rot on one of his little side/direction fin-thrusters


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*mwah* I'm so proud of you, Budster. That's the spirit! Bud's smart so he knows he's got to take his medicine.


----------



## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

It's good to hear that he ate a few worms, I was getting really worried... I can't think of another good over-the-counter med in comparison to the combination we are already using. There is Nitrofurazone (gram pos but mostly gram neg) which can be combined with Kanamycin and/or Metronidazole... Or Furazolidone, which would require a detox period of at least 2 weeks before using. Since Furazolidone would require a detox period it probably isn't ideal for Bud. I'm worried about adding any additional medications given how long he has been treated. Kidneys and livers can only handle so much. Let's wait to see if the current treatment will have any affect. 

How is his behavior since eating the worms?


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud is trooping along in his one gallon drug incubator. After not eating for a couple days, he has been powering down the medicated bloodworms. Although he goes into his hidey-cups often, he also has been resting on top of them since they are 1 inch below the surface. Both behaviors are newer, with the resting on top the most recent. He goes for the worms quickly and repeatedly, but will 'flit' about sometimes. His fins have been greatly reduced to very little. He will swim down to the bottom to get leftover worms after I put a few when he stops eating. I check an hour later and they are gone. 

I'll take a very close look tomorrow and try to gauge his current status. I've severely torn a calf muscle chasing single girls around town, so I'm unable to walk, so many activities are much harder, slower, and performed less well. I'm changing Buds water every 2 days, should Inchange daily? (Kanamycin, Tetracycline, Epsom salt, Sress Coat, 84 degrees all in a dim bucket with 1 gallon of water.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bud says serves you right, Input. If he has no fins and can't chase the girls, you shouldn't be able to either. Pbbbt. Haha, that's why he's sulking in his hidey-holes. He's jealous you get to be out on the town and he's stuck at home with the equivalent of casts on both legs and an IV drip (and let's not forget the open-back hospital gown). I jest, of course. ;-) Hope your leg heals up quickly, Input. Sounds very painful. Soak it in epsom salts. Seriously. Good for muscle aches.

And for you Bud, a big hurray that you're motoring along. Bud, you amaze me. He's got the conqueror's spirit and darn it, he's gonna conquer this fin rot! Huzzah!


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hey Input, I was so glad to hear from you. I was about to bump our thread to get an update. Obviously I can't answer your question for you in regards to water changes. I know that Kanamyacin is a 2 day soak and I know the rest of the stuff can wait 2 days as well. It's the tetracycline I'm not sure about. Sakura? Whatever you're currently doing is obviously working so just keep it going until Sakura or Darkmoon direct you differently. I'm so sorry to hear about your calf issue. Dang it - what's going on over there in your house??!! You guys need to both get well and go out for a game of pool.


----------



## input nirvana (Aug 28, 2011)

Bud has appetite, so that's a huge indicator of improvement and I'll take it. 

Crutches today 
Living in the big city, wearing a suit, 10 years ago, using crutches for a jogging foot injury, I was swamped with female attention, somewhat overwhelming at times. Now, in a tiny and isolated town, looking a little older and rougher in tshirts and shorts...not so much attention. I feel like Bud in his bucket.


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aww, well, you and Bud have plenty of female attention here, anyway. XD I don't know why no guys ever post here. 

Should we send some car and muscle mags over for you and Bud to read while you're recuperating? Maybe Bud wants to look at hot babes in a tropical fish mag. 

Keep on eating, Bud!

Personally, I think every 2 day is okay for water changes. No sense in stressing yourself or Bud out with more frequent ones if it's harder to do right now. But as always, DarkMoon is final authority on this case.


----------



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Input? How's our guy?


----------



## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Are you doing okay, Input? How's your leg? And how's Bud?


----------

