# How to treat early dropsy?



## britishbetta

Hi everyone, I noticed Shigeru's gotten a grey belly, he's bloated, his eyes seem to have swollen up a bit as well around the rims, and he's clampy. This sounds like early dropsy (thankfully he has not pineconed). On top of that, he's also chronically constipated. What is your general consensus on how to treat him? :shock:

*What size is your tank?* 3 gallons
*What temperature is your tank?* 84 degrees F
*Does your tank have a filter?* No
*Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?* No
*Is your tank heated?* Yes
*What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *None

*Food*
*What type of food do you feed your betta fish?* Hikari Betta Bio Gold, Hikari micro pellets, Hikari frozen daphnia (for constipation)
* How often do you feed your betta fish?* A few micro pellets in the mornings, and one betta-eyeball sized clump of daphnia at night.

* Maintenance *
* How often do you perform a water change?* Normally, one 50% + one 100% a week, but I think in his current salt treatment, he should be getting 100% changes. Is this correct?
*What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?* see above.
*What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?* Recently, I've added Epsom Salt and stress coat. I also add Tetra Blackwater extract.

*Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?*

* Ammonia:* ?
* Nitrite:* ?
* Nitrate:* ?
* pH:* 7.2
* Hardness:* ?
* Alkalinity:* ?

*Symptoms and Treatment*
*How has your betta fish's appearance changed? * He's gotten a grey, swollen belly (not too bad, but noticeable), his body seems to glow bright pink inside under bright light as if he has a fever, his eyes have swelled a bit, he's clamping his fins.
*How has your betta fish's behavior changed?* He's more easily tired than usual, but is still pretty alert, demanding and hungry.
*When did you start noticing the symptoms?* Labor Day weekend. 
* Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?* Since September 4th, I've added 1 tsp/gallon of Epsom Salt.* I'M CURRENTLY DEBATING STARTING MARACYN I AND II.*
*Does your fish have any history of being ill?* Yes, ever since I got him from the pet store, he's had occasional flare-ups of red streaks appearing in his tail and fins, which I would always treat with Erythromyocin; this kept the flare-ups in control. Eventually, he developed chronic swim bladder disorder and constipation, which combined with his red streaks flare-ups and led to this current predicament.
* How old is your fish (approximately)? *He's old enough to be sold, so probably 7 months plus.

*My main questions are:*
Should I be starting Maracyn I and II? IF SO, should I be adding a new dose of medicine with each daily 100% water change?
Also, Maracyn I and II come in 10 gallon packets that I would have to divide into the appropriate smaller, daily doses for Shigeru's 3 gallon tank. Does anyone have a good way to do this accurately and safely? 

I really appreciate all your help. Shigeru's a real trooper and an awesome fish to have, and I want to give him the best treatment possible.


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## Sakura8

Hi BB. You can up his epsom salt dosage to 3 tsps per gallon. At this point, I'd hold off on the use of any Maracyns. I've done some research and discovered that not only do most bacteria have a resistance to the medications in the two Maracyns but one of them, minocycline, also causes kidney damage. Since many dropsy cases are caused by kidney infections, risking the kidneys with that med is not recommended. 

You can also try fasting him for a few days to see if that helps with the bloating. When you resume feeding, feed only a bit of daphnia each day until he's able to pass some waste. 

If you can get a hold of Indian Almond Leaf or naturally dried oak leaves, those would be beneficial as well as they have some antimicrobial properties as well as recreating the tan water that bettas naturally come from. If you need any IAL, you can PM me and I'd be happy to mail you a few leaves. 

If he isn't showing any signs of losing his bloat or perking up, then we may need to try a good antibiotic like Seachem Kanaplex. This med is often very hard to find in stores so it may need to be ordered online if this is a route you want to go.

Good luck with the little chap and keep me updated.


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## britishbetta

Hi Sakura8, thank you so much for the reply. I'm very thankful for the information about the Maracyns because that is such *critical* information. I'm very glad I haven't started using them.

Shigeru was able to pass a rather large bowel movement yesterday with the help of some daphnia, although he hasn't pooped at all today. I think I will keep giving him only daphnia each day, as you suggest.

I'm still a little hesitant with using epsom salt for very long, as it seems to be harsh on Shigeru in particular, but I will try increasing his dosage to 3 tsp/gallon and see what happens. How long would you recommend treating him for? 10 days and 100% daily water changes?

And as for IAL, will it really be safe to use it when he's sick with something bacterial/viral? I know, I know, it's really good for the little guys and you just mentioned it has antimicrobial properties, but IAL is organic and it comes allll the way from Southeast Asia. Is it pretty fresh and clean when you get it? o.o If so, I will seriously start ordering this stuff.

Again, thank you for sharing this information. I feel more confident in how to help him now. :] I'm hoping for the best.


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## Sakura8

Hi BB. Did Shigeru deflate any after passing his bowel movement? Or is he still quite bloated?

Overall, epsom salt is pretty mild because it isn't a real salt, it's magnesium sulfate. Most fish react well to it but there are some that don't and if Shigeru is one of those, we certainly don't want to stress him out by increasing his dosage. Another option is to give him 1 hour baths in a mixture of 3 tsps of epsom salt per gallon and returning him to his tank afterward. You would do this twice a day as opposed to leaving him in the mixture round the clock.

With epsom salt, they can be treated indefinitely. Aquarium salt, on the other hand, is definitely a salt and has the potential to cause damage to the organs if used too long. That's the one we definitely say 14 days maximum treatment.

IAL certainly isn't going to be as effective as a medication in terms of fighting off a true bacterial or parasitic infection but it does have some properties that are beneficial. It's what I recommend when I can't tell for certain from the symptoms if the fish has a bacterial or parastic problem, because I don't want to suggest a bacterial med and then have the fish start passing worms or something. Too much medication and/or the wrong kind can be just as harmful as no medication. It's why treating fish can be so darn hard, because a lot of the times they don't show us conclusive symptoms until it's too late. 

Here's a website that has some facts about IAL

http://www.indianalmondleaves.com/aquariums.php

The IAL I get is from . . . Singapore? Thailand? I can't remember the country exactly but the supplier I use, Amy Ketapang, is one many members on the forum use as well. The leaves are cleaned and dried and shipped that way so they stay fresh for a long time in a ziplock bag. As an added precaution, you can always rinse the leaves in hot water before placing them in the tank. 

Again, if he doesn't show any signs of improvement within a few days or he seems to get worse, we can try something like Seachem Kanaplex. Another option is to get Hikari HealthAid Metro and soak his food in that. Metronidazole is a good med because it is an effective antiparasitic and also treats some mild anaerobic bacterial infections when given internally via food. Unfortunately the key is: he's gotta want to eat. As far as I'm aware, no store around here carries Kanaplex but Jo-Jo's Aquarium on Stockon near 47th has Metro, as well as Seachem Garlic Guard to make it taste better. I think AquaWorkz on Belvedere just off Power Inn also has the Metro.


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## britishbetta

Wow, thanks for clearing that all up, especially about the salts. :shock: 

Okay, since I'm at work all day, I'm not sure I can do the salt baths twice a day as in once in the morning and once in the evening. However, I would be able to do them 4 hours apart at night when I get home. Would that work? 

If that's ineffective, I might try raising the salt level in his tank gradually to 2 tsps and then 3 tsps/gal. The reason I think epsom salt's harsh on him is because the last time I used it on him, he got kinda raised looking scales the next day, and the same thing is happening now. After I stopped the Epsom salt, his scales went back to normal, which is what I anticipate would happen now, too.


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## britishbetta

Ah, well, he shrank a little after pooping, but he's still a bit bloated. It's noticeable, but again, not severe. His belly's still grey though.


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## Sakura8

That's odd. Raised scales, like pineconing? I've never heard of that happening from epsom salt. I wonder if he has an allergic reaction. Epsom salts are commonly used as muscle soaks or as a laxative in humans because they draw out excess fluids. That's why we use them in bettas with dropsy, to draw out the excess fluid caused by organ failure (most often kidneys). Epsoms should cause him to flatten out, not stick up. 

If he does pinecone any time he's on epsoms, then I'd definitely say we need an alternative method of treatment. Metronidazole as a food AND as a soak would work, if he'll eat something soaked in it like frozen bloodworms or pellets. I'm not sure but O Street might carry metro. Otherwise, I can loan you Kanaplex.


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## britishbetta

No, not to the level of pineconing. The grooves between each and all scales on his body just seem to "darken and deepen", but when I look at him from the top, I don't see any horizontal swelling or scales sticking out. It just looks like the scales get "rougher" instead of fitting together smoothly.


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## britishbetta

Well, in any case, I should probably get to bed before I fall asleep mid water-change, so I will stick with a treatment of 1 tsp of epsom salt/gallon for now, just to continue drawing out extra fluids from his body. 

Thank you and good night! I will keep in touch.


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## Sakura8

That's odd. I've truly never heard of that phenomenon before. I'll have to ask a veterinary friend if she knows what that may mean. I'm wondering if it is some kind of illusion caused by the interaction of the water and magnesium sulfate crystals. I know that I can tell the difference between salt water and freshwater when I first put in the epsom salts or regular AQ salt, too. You can see it get all cloudy/crystaly/sparkly as the salts settle and dissolve. 

Does he react negatively in any other way when he's in epsom, aside from his scales going weird? If he seems okay otherwise, can breathe and isn't in any distress, then I'd leave him in 1 tsp for now instead of removing him from the salt entirely. If you felt comfortable with the idea, you could bump him up to 2 tsps but only if you feel comfortable with it.


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## Kess

If you have true dropsy, I would suggest getting rid of your daphnia if it's live. Live food is what is known to cause it; unfortunately, your culture is probably contaminated. I wish you the best of luck.


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## britishbetta

The daphnia's frozen. Is that safer?


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## britishbetta

The grey on Shigeru's scales seem to have spread, although he is still active, alert and hungry. I haven't fed him since yesterday since he hasn't pooped again. The internal pinkish glow under bright light has reduced a little but I'm not sure what that means. I think I'll continue the salt at 1 tsp/gallon for 7 days max. 

In the meantime, I think I'll be trying either Seachem Kanaplex (which I will have to order online) or the Hikari Metro. At this point, I'm leaning on the Metro, since I can just drive there and get it the same day instead of waiting for shipping.


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## Sakura8

I asked my veterinary friend about the epsom salt and Shigeru's scales and here's what she said:

After reading the thread, I'm thinking that it is most likely a result of "normal" dropsy swelling-mild swelling if you will... He is swollen enough that the scales don't fit together perfectly but not enough for it to be a clinical problem. It definitely isn't a side effect of Epsom salt-though I also don't know if the salt might affect how we see them. Salt only really affects the look of the fish when it isn't mixed thoroughly or is dissolving. If it is mixed thoroughly then it should not affect your vision.


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## britishbetta

Okay, thanks. :> I'll keep an eye on him.


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## Sakura8

Just following up on the metro instructions.

For dosing his 3 gallon: find something that holds 5 cups dechlorinated water and fill. Add 1 tsp of metro to that and mix. Now add 1/2 cup for every gallon of his tank, so 1.5 cups. Change the water every other day and redose the meds. 

For medicated food: get about a quarter cup of tank water and mix with 1 tsp of metro. Add garlic juice if you can to make it taste better. Soak frozen bloodworms or pellets in this mix for 5 minutes, then feed as usual.


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## britishbetta

Ah, just to clarify - for the medicated food, should I be using a quarter cup of tank water that already has Metro in it, and add an additional tsp of Metro to that? Or is it just a new quarter cup of dechlorinated water from the tap? >_<

While I'm using Metro in Shigeru's water, I change the water every other day, despite the Epsom salt, correct? I hope I've understood you, haha.


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## britishbetta

Just a little update, since yesterday night, I've given him food medicated with Metro (is there any particular dosage for the garlic guard?), and he ate it, and today he pooped. Yay! His poop was floating though, haha, and it was a greyish brown. I think it's because the frozen brine shrimp i fed him is relatively colorless. 

How long should I be giving him medicated food for?

Today, I'm going to start him on IAL, but hold off on medicating his water. I will continue to feed him frozen food with shells like bloodworms, and continue the Epsom salt treatment. We'll see how it goes!


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## Sakura8

Hi, sorry, I wasn't able to get on last night. I've got a sick cat who needs nursing around the clock so sleep is like . . . yeah.

Anyway, seems like you figured out the metro food thing? No particular dosage for the Garlic Guard, just enough to make it taste good. I'd give him the frozen food for at least a week, 2 feedings per day.


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## britishbetta

Okay, thanks. I hope your cat feels better soon.


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## Sakura8

Good luck! That he's already pooped is definitely promising.


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## britishbetta

Some updates! He hasn't pooped since his breakfast this morning, but he doesn't look too bloated, so I'll continue feeding him. 

The IAL has really helped - he looks gorgeous now, he's even showing some iridescence in his fins, and it looks he's been dusted with glitter. *O* 

I've noticed however, that he's nearly always in fishy sleep-mode unless I go over and engage him. Then he'll start swimming around, looking for food. He constantly switches sleeping spots, sometimes he's on the bottom, sometimes he's at the very top, and on different layers of leaves. Does this count as lethargy? Or is he just bored/very calm?


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## Sakura8

It could count as mild lethargy if it's greatly different from his normal behavior. Otherwise, he could possibly be resting up or even just bored, as you suggested. Definitely keep an eye on him and if he stays kind of dopey or gets even worse, we can explore some other options for him.


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## SlabSided

Hi,

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm experiencing the exact same thing with my betta. I'm on the 3rd day of Maracyn 2 (sorry....the only thing I can find locally and I'm too freaked out not to use something) and Epsom salt. He started out with just a slight eye-bulge and no other symptoms - no bloat or constipation - but then became a little lethargic. Unfortunately, I didn't start treatment other than a small amount of Epsom for about a week because he was acting otherwise fine and I thought I might be imagining the eye bulge. When the left one became more prominent I started the Maracyn for popeye. Yesterday I noticed his belly is gray so I've transferred him to his hospital tank, upped the temps, and am going to continue the Maracyn. Today he's slightly pineconed. 

I'm hopeful still.....he's active and eating. I'm going to try and find the parasite pellets today.

I've been following this thread from the beginning....how is your guy doing?


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## Sakura8

Be careful with the Maracyn. It's not very effective in high pH and if you use the 5 cup method for dosing, you must toss out the leftovers as it is not good after 24 hours. Try 3 tsps of epsom salt per gallon as well. Good luck!


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## britishbetta

I am sorry to hear your little guy isn't feeling well.  Shigeru's doing okay - he seems to have injured himself though, so that's more fuel to the fire of my anxiety. >_< *crosses fingers* What's your boy's name?


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## britishbetta

Hi Sakura,

I skipped Shigeru's breakfast today since he hadn't pooped since yesterday. Today he has pooped, but I'm afraid the break in metro might have had bad effects.

He seems to have injured himself - there's now a patch of greying scales on his right side and one scale in the middle of that patch that seems to have lifted off and turned translucent. In fact, the whole patch looks like it's about to raise up. I put in some Stress Coat and I'm going to start feeding him food with metro again. Is the raised scale indicative of an injury? O_O

I'm encouraged by the fact that the greying and raised scales are localized and that he's still active, curious, alert and hungry. He was able to do the food-wiggle dance for a good 3 minutes while I was looking him over, and he's still swimming about from perch to perch now. 

I've also noticed he seems to have developed a light oily film on both his eyes. It's like he's prematurely aging, poor thing. He's just going through one thing after another!


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## SlabSided

I haven't tested the PH out of the tap lately but the last time I did it was 7. After it's been in the tank with the substrate it goes up to 8 but his hospital tank is bare so hopefully we're okay. However, I did give him his first 3 doses in his 5 gallon with the substrate so that may be a problem. As for the dosing, I gave 1 package the first day and half yesterday and today. Then when I moved him to his 1 gallon hospital tank, I mixed half a package with 5 teaspoons of water and dosed 1 teaspoon. I threw out the rest since it didn't seem worth saving.

I only used 2 tsps per gallon of Epsom, I'll up that to 3 tomorrow. Luckily, so far, he's not bloated and has been pooping. And he's still pretty active and relatively happy.

His name is Tuna Bob. He's such a personable little guy and I've tried so hard to do everything right and I think I have up till now but he is a Petco fish and also has lymphocystis so he's probably already immuno compromised. 

I am just so very sad.


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## SlabSided

Hey BB.....are your guys eyes popped at all? So far, Tuna Bob's eyes aren't cloudy or filmy, but the bulging has gotten worse. That's part of why I wasn't sure I was dealing with popeye since they looked fine from the side and it was only when looking at him at an angle that they seemed protruding.


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## Sakura8

The raised scale could be indicative of an external parasite such as a skin fluke buried under his scales. If that's the case, adding metronidazole to the water as well as feeding it should help as well. On the other hand, it could just mean he brushed up against something and knocked it loose. 

Do his eyes look kind of cloudy then?


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## britishbetta

Hi SlabSided, Shigeru's eyes are a little big still when I look at them from the side (the circumference seems a bit bigger than usual) and the rim of white around them hasn't gone away. If I look at his eyes from the top, they haven't bulged outward. 

I know, it's really hard to try and cope with the worry and sadness. The most important thing to do is to not let that overwhelm you and keep going and keep them as comfortable as possible.


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## britishbetta

There's no whiteness to his eyes, no.

I'll go ahead and add metro to his water then too. How long should I keep this treatment up for?

Thanks for replying so quickly! >_<


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## Sakura8

Dose the metro in the water for 5 days. The translucent scale and the area beneath it could also be a sign of a localized bacteria infection under the scales too. I'm hoping if it's skin flukes the metro in the water will clear them out and the metro in the food will take care of any internal bacterial infection. However, if he continues to worsen as far as greying belly and behavior or pineconing, then we probably will want to switch to Kanaplex. Will he eat flake?

EDIT: I have noticed that bettas with shorter bodies (ie, halfmoons, doubletails) do tend to have eyes that bulge out a little more than other tail types but it is normal.


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## britishbetta

I've never tried flakes. Will Omega one flakes work?

By the way, he doesn't looks swollen horizontally when I look at him from above, which is good.


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## Sakura8

I'm just wondering because I do have some medicated kanamycin flake. None of my bettas would eat it. But probably best to use fresh Kanaplex and fresh food; I've had the bag for a while now so it might be stale. :-?

I'm glad he doesn't look swollen, that's good news.


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## britishbetta

Okay, I see. I'm ordering the seachem kanaplex now then. Kanaplex can be added to both pellets and frozen foods right?


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## britishbetta

Where on earth could the skin flukes have come from?  I wash my hands religiously whenever I handle his stuff.


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## Sakura8

Yes, it can, pretty much the same way as metro. It's a great med because it's very effective when used internally via feed and when it is absorbed through the gills via water.

EDIT: It's strange but most of the parasites/bacteria that affect our fish are always present in our tanks and on the fish itself. When a fish is healthy and unstressed, his immune system is strong enough to fight off any outbreaks or infestations. But if for some reason he gets stressed, then his immune system will crash and he'll be unable to keep the protozoa under control, hence the outbreaks. It will most likely be a total mystery what but it seems like Shigeru got stressed a bit at some point (it could even be as far back as when he was still at the pet store before you bought him) and his immune system became compromised.


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## Sakura8

Do you think you might be able to get a photo of him?


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## britishbetta

I'm afraid the photos won't turn out any better than my user avatar pic. :I

Well, I have a feeling doing 100% water changes a day in order to refresh the Epsom Salt has been stressing him. I have to keep him in a cup, etc. He doesn't enjoy it. Is there a way to get by without doing water changes so frequently? 

Otherwise, since he's not swelling and constipated too badly, I might take him off the salt entirely and just change his water every other day in order to redose the metro in the water.


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## Sakura8

The only way to not have to do so many water changes is to keep him in a larger hospital tank, 5 gals and up. An ideal hospital tank for a betta would be a 10gal but none of us can afford one or have the space for one. 

That's fine, taking him off the salt.


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## britishbetta

Interesting, I always thought hospital tanks had to be small! O_O

I'm weaning him off the salt then. I think he can breathe a little easier now, without fear of the cup of doom. XD


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## SlabSided

Hi, it's me again. Sorry to keep butting in but all I could find for parasite control is API General Cure. Can I use this along with the Maracyn 2? I still have one more dose of that tomorrow. I've upped his salt and he doesn't look as pine-coney but his eyes are still popped. He's pooping and still not bloated. 

Also, when I dose the General Cure, I plan to mix up 1/2 a package with 5 teaspoons of water and dose 1 teaspoon. Can I also soak a bloodworm in that mixture or would that be too strong?

Thanks again.


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## Sakura8

Hi SlabSided, yes you can use General Cure with Maracyn 2. You can also soak a bloodworm or two as well. Good luck!


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## SlabSided

Thanks! I'm cautiously optimistic.


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## britishbetta

Hi Sakura8,

This was stupid of me to overlook. There's a white stringy thing attached to Shigeru's tail. It appeared the day after I added metro to his food and IAL to his water. It's slightly yellow in color and looks like trailing lint. It has no visible head or other features. There's now a smaller, thinner thing on another part of Shigeru's tail. 

Are these egg sacs?! >___< The metro seems to help, Shigeru's still active and hungry. I added metro to his water as well as his food yesterday so I'm very surprised to see MORE of these strings.


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## Lisa1010

Wow! Britishbetta I cannot comment on dropsy because I am new to betta's and haven't experienced that but I did want to say the male betta in your avatar looks just like that male I had but then returned to the store. He is so pretty!

I hope your fish gets better!

Lisa


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## britishbetta

Uh, just wanted to add that while Shigeru's fins and tail initially looked gorgeous after i added the IAL, they are now frayed looking at the edges, with sections that are turning transparent instead of white. The edges do not look red or blackened, simply worse for wear.


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## britishbetta

Thank you, Lisa. I hope your boy has a happy, long life.


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## Sakura8

British, it's possible the white stringy stuff is excess slime coat. When a fish is ill, they produce more slime coat as an effort to fight off parasite infestations or infections. 

I'm not sure what to make of the fin thing except that perhaps he's getting them caught on the rougher edges of the IAL. You don't have to leave the leaf in you don't want to, it's just most of us do because it's easier that way. But if you suspect he may be ripping his fins on the leaves by all means, definitely remove them after the water has turned tea-colored.

HMDTs have incredibly fragile fins because of their size so wear and tear is pretty common, especially in times of stress. In addition, as they get older, the fins no longer look neat and even. My HMDT looks pretty raggedy now.

Does the metro seem to help with his raised scales? I want to stress that, if at any time, you feel he is under distress because of any of his treatments, you can certainly stop them.


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## britishbetta

He seems to be absolutely fine with the metro!  The localized greying/raised scales have reduced in color and swelling. That's definitely good news. The translucent raised scale is still there, but I think that will just fall off on its own in time.

I'm so happy to hear the strings aren't anything parasitic. They might just be ripped parts of his fins - I noticed a little bit of redness where the strings attach to his tails, almost like that's the place that's going to scab. 

I reduced his Epsom salt to 1/2 tsp/gallon to try and wean him off of it, but he hasn't pooped at all today. I'm going to TRY and take all the epsom salt out tonight and see if he poops tomorrow. If he doesn't, he's going back on the ep salt. I'll have to figure out a long-term solution for his constipation. Do you think he needs peas? :\

Thank you for all your help, Sakura - Shigeru seems to be a special needs betta now. I wouldn't know how to address half these issues without your guidance.


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## britishbetta

Slab, keep us posted. :>


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## britishbetta

Ugh...I just did something very stupid. I added metro to tap water without dechlorinating it first and then added that to a tank of dechlorinated water. Can I just add more dechlorinator (in the right amount) to fix this?  My logic says I can, but is there any sort of chain reaction I'm not aware of?


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## Sakura8

British, you should be able to do that, yes.

You can try peas. You've probably heard all sorts of controversial stuff about them but the truth is they can be fed without a problem. It's just that they are not a staple diet. You can use canned peas or frozen but try to find ones that have no added salt. Blanch it by placing it in boiling water for a minute or so and then in ice cold water for a minute or more. Peel it and cut out a piece that's no bigger than one of his pellets and feed that to him.

Epsom salts also help stimulate the production of slime coat, although to a lesser degree than AQ salt.


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## britishbetta

I just read the bottle of metro and it states that it helps replace slime coat. Well! With salt and metro both, no wonder he's slimier than usual XD

Just fyi, I have kanaplex on hand now.


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## Sakura8

Good to hear about the Kanaplex. Hope we don't have to use it but it's always good to have a strong antibiotic on hand.


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## SlabSided

Well, Tuna Bob is hanging in there. He doesn't LOOK any worse - not bloated, eyes about the same, very gray little belly - but he's MUCH more lethargic. He's just been laying at the bottom of the tank and only moving to pop up and get some air then go right back down. He's swimming fine and did eat this morning and pooped. Right now, he's switched to hovering in one corner near the top. Lots of gill movement and I think his gills look black, tho I'm honestly not sure how normal that is. I did up his Epsom to 3 tsps/gallon last night - should I drop back down to 2 today since he's not bloated? I'm just concerned he has so much crap in his tank right now he can't breathe. :-(

BB - I also saw this "stringy" thing on him once, but then it disappeared. I'm using stress coat at about double the normal amount right now so he may just be extra slimy.

Assuming he survives this, do I need to really scrub his 5 gallon tank before returning him? Could there be lurking bacteria that I need to get rid of? Obviously, I'll do a major water change and I really don't care at this point if I screw up the cycle - should I run everything, including gravel, under hot water?


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## SlabSided

Oh dear....I just found Tuna Bob laying on his side at the bottom of the tank. He jumped up when I tapped on the tank but he seemed to struggle to get to the surface. I'm changing his water now and he seems to have perked up a bit in his cup and even ate a pellet. But his color is a little faded. I've lowered the water a bit and positioned a silk plant so there are leaves near the surface he can rest on, but so far he hasn't been interested in anything in the tank - just laying on the floor or floating at the surface.


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## Sakura8

SlabSided, I'm sorry about Tuna Bob.  Black gills can't be good. Can you see under his gills when he breathes? The tissue underneath should be a healthy red, the color of raw meat. Light pink or gray/black = bad. 

I'd leave him at 3 tsps, it won't hurt him.

For his tank, is it filtered? If it is, then most of your bacteria is in the filter media. Even if you tear his tank apart and scrub it, you'd only lose the bacteria that is in the water and the substrate. You'd have to do at most a mini-cycle. If his tank is not filtered, then you didn't have a cycle anyway so you won't lose anything but what bacteria might be in the substrate. You don't necessarily have to tear the tank apart. If he was the only one in it and you don't have live plants, you can treat the tank with erythromycin. 

British, how is Shigeru today?


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## britishbetta

Hi Sakura, 

WELL, his biggest problem is he can't poop on his own anymore. He either needs Epsom salt or peas. I'm going to try a pea tonight after a water change, however, I want to hold off on the Epsom Salt, because I'm afraid he might develop insensitivity to it over time. Can that happen?

Because he can't poop, his control of his swimming is completely shot. He can't even float upright anymore. If he doesn't use a leaf or something to prop himself upright, he'll be floating completely flat on his side at the surface of the water - honestly, it's scary because it looks like he's bellying up. 

What do you think will be a better long-term solution? Salt or peas? or both?


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## britishbetta

I think he feels really tired...he doesn't have much energy now. He's just sort of hanging on.


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## Sakura8

I would go with the epsom salt AND some kind of fiber source. Peas, daphnia, brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, those all would work. Since bettas can be kept in epsom salt indefinitely he probably won't develop a resistance to it. 

Sounds like whatever blockage he has is big enough to press against his swimbladder. :/ 

Let's go ahead and start the Kanaplex in case we're looking at a bacterial problem that has clogged up/shut down his system. I believe the dosage is 1 measure for 5 gallons so a half measure should do for his tank.


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## britishbetta

And I would just add the kanaplex directly to his water after I've changed it?


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## Sakura8

Yup.


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## britishbetta

It seems he won't eat peas. I'll put him on brine shrimp and epsom salt. How many tsp/gallon would you recommend? 3?


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## britishbetta

I still want to hold off on the kanaplex and see if he poos or not tomorrow. If he doesn't, kanaplex it is then. However, do you think it would be alright to put the kanaplex in the water and STILL feed him food soaked in metro?


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## britishbetta

.............Right after I get done prepping his tank water with 2 tsp/gallon of ep salt, he goes and poos in his cup. 

I'll still assume the worst and always have him in epsom salt from now on. -_- But now I won't use the kanaplex. I'll continue the metro until the 10 days are up.


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## Sakura8

Agh, I completely forgot about that. Sometimes any kind of hyperactivity can make them go. One trick is to get them to flare at something, get them really hyper and flitting around. Another is to put them in a cup and gently chase them around with your finger for a few minutes. This weird phenomenon IS why they tend to poo in their holding cup or right after we put them back in a freshly cleaned tank. That, or they like to spite us. 

Glad to hear he went though, that's good for him. I can only imagine what size a betta's colon must be so it's probably pretty easy for them to get clogged up. My cat was completely constipated for a week and mostly constipated for several weeks before that and developed what the vet called a megacolon. She said it felt like it was about the size of a sprinkler pipe. Judging from how uncomfortable the cat was, I can imagine why Shigeru feels a bit listless.


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## britishbetta

Hi Sakura,

Since my last post, he's pooped once on Friday and Sunday. Yay! Looks like he's getting back on a regular schedule. However, I've noticed his fins are shrinking/wearing away. There's no black or red edges to indicate fin rot or anything, it's just that the fins are eroding. Could it be that the frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms I've been feeding him aren't nutritionally sufficient? I've been debating whether to start adding pellets back into his diet.


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## Sakura8

Does it seem like he may be tailbiting out of frustration/boredom? No little mouth-shaped chunks out of the fins?

You can start adding back the pellets but phase them in slowly so we can make sure his system makes the transition without blocking up again. I think the bloodworms and brineshrimp are nutritionally sufficient because they're usually supplemented with vitamins but variety is best in a fish diet.


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## britishbetta

I will phase Omega One pellets into his diet slowly.

Yeah, i think tail-biting might be a possibility; however, I've never caught him doing it.

I bought him a heater that keeps the water at 84 degrees max during the day and about 80 at night. I've noticed some white-ish scummy looking stuff growing inside his tank - I'm going to scrub it all off tonight, but I'm thinking maybe that's what's causing some of Shigeru's troubles. He seems more listless today than usual. 
I think I'll lower the water temp to 82 max during the day and 78 at night. :<


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## britishbetta

Also, I got him a new jar from Petco to play in, perhaps that's also a contaminant. I'll remove that.

On account of the white scum, do you think it would be wise to start adding water to his metro again? I stopped on Monday, once I hit the max days recommended.

On a brighter note, he's been pooing once every day since Sunday. :>


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## Sakura8

Epsom salts can cause an excess of slime coat that comes off and coats everything. Also, I've noticed that anything with rubber (like suction cups and silicone) tends to develop what we call "heater snot." No one knows what it is, it's just disgusting, harmless, slimy stuff that forms on heaters etc. 

Since he's hit his max days of metro, I'd definitely do a 25% water change. Do a 50% water change tomorrow, and a 75% change the day after that. 100% on Saturday and he should be phased out of the metro completely. You can also add carbon back into his filter (if he has one, can't remember now) and that will take the meds out of the water too.

If at any time he stops pooing again, put him back into epsom salts for a few days, that should help.

Glad he's back to his regularly scheduled programming now.


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## britishbetta

The white stuff is slimy. Not hairy, but it dots the tank in little spots. A quick web search points to early stages of algae bloom. Any thoughts? Sorry for bombarding you with three messages all once. XD;


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## britishbetta

Curses. I neglected to phase him gently out of the metro. I hope that won't hit him too hard. He's still on metro-medicated food though - today's his tenth day of that.


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## Sakura8

Could be an algae bloom but usually those are greenish in color, like cyanobacteria or diatome algae. Might be a bacteria bloom more likely, although I'm not sure how with all the constant water changes. The sliminess though does make me think it's heater snot. No one knows what heater snot really is so it's possible it's a form of algae or bacteria. Wish I had a microscope, I'd test some to see what kind of structure it had, if any.

The strange thing about tailbiting is we almost never witness them in the act. A quick twist of the body and half the tail is gone before we know it. I've had one bite off everything he could reach, right down to the nubs, while I took a 4 hour nap. Went to sleep to a perfectly fine betta, woke up to a naked one.


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## Sakura8

If he's acting just fine, then I'm sure not phasing him out of the metro is okay. In all reality, fish are a little hardier than we give them credit for. The metro is mild enough that going from it to normal water isn't too much of a shock. It might be a different story if the medicine were really strong like coppersafe or potassium permgeate.


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## britishbetta

Okay, perhaps he'll perk up after dinner. After thinking about it, I'll keep him on the metro food for another day or two, but phase him out of it. 

I will keep the temperature at 84 degree max and 80 minimum, and just be sure to clean his tank well in between changes. I'll probably be keeping him on epsom salt for a while and be doing 100% water changes per day. I can't think of a better long-term solution, but he does seem to be out of the woods for now.


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## Sakura8

I'm really happy to hear that.  Yay for Shigeru!

By the way, you can phase him off the epsom salts in the same way as I described for the metro. But he would definitely be okay if you just went straight from epsom to clean water. I've done it many times before and the betta is always fine.


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## britishbetta

Okay, noted! 

By the way, what is the temperature can I safely go up to without having to worry about flex? I'm seeing my tank reach temperatures of 86 F.


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## Sakura8

86 F is the high end but if the temp is upped gradually, bettas can tolerate even 90 F for short times. Mostly, I try to keep mine at 78-80 F. 86 F is good for dealing with ich and other external parasites.


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## britishbetta

Thank you as always. 

You know, I recently ran another search for that white trailing stuff on Shigeru's fins and found this article on "cotton fin fungus"
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification_1.html#Finfungus

Shigeru's fins HAVE been disappearing since the white stuff appeared, and the white stuff has survived treatments of metro. I'm not sure how much good an anti-biotic can do against a true fungus. 

As a precaution, I may just stop the IAL and substitute it with blackwater extract. 

What do you think? What's a good medicine to use a against a fungus?


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## britishbetta

I also found this article comparing flex and cotton fin fungus.

http://www.bettainfo.com/betta-fungus-infection


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## Sakura8

Cotton fin fungus, also called fin melt, is saprolegnia and is pretty much the only true fungus encountered in our fish. IAL will help being an antimicrobial but if you think Shigeru may have this, you could try malachite green. Another product that might help is Betta Revive. Meds in general don't work on funguses (fungi?) but the mineral treatments such as malachite green do seem to have an effect and are generally harmless even if it turns out that isn't sapro after all. Just be careful and maybe treat in an old tupperware or something because malachite green stains and you don't want to accidentally inhale it either. I think it can also set back your biological bacteria as well.

I know O Street has Kordon Malachite Green and Petco carries Betta Revive.

Did he seem to have the white trailing stuff before or after he went into epsom salt and treatment? If he had it before, then it's definitely possible it's sapro. Or, if he had a tear on his fin from biting or getting it caught on something, sapro tends to show up a lot around open wounds so that could be a cause too.

If he's doing okay digestive-wise, then he should be just fine without the metro now. 

Before treating him with malachite though, I'd give him a few days in clean water to flush the metro completely out of his system. 

Hope this helps.


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## britishbetta

Okay, it'll take a while for me to clean out the meds from Shigeru's system so I'm wondering whether it would be okay to overlap the Metro, Epsom salt and Malachite green? @[email protected]

In case you're wondering, Shigeru's white stuff most resembles what's on the this fish:
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/cottonfungus2_anonymousjungle.html


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## Sakura8

I wouldn't overlap too much, he's had a lot of meds. Just a few days in clean water ought to do it. 

Poor Shigeru's fins.


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## britishbetta

Hopefully, I can still use the Epsom salt in conjunction with Malachite Green? OnO;;

Just when I thought things were finally over. /headdesk


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## Sakura8

I think so but let me doublecheck on that to be on the safe side.

These fish of ours love to make us stress.


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## Sakura8

Here's what my friend said about using epsom and malachite green together:

"I don't see any obvious reason why you wouldn't want to use them together... He does need to wait at least a week after the last metro treatment to begin the new treatment though."


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## britishbetta

Okay, is there anything I can do in the meantime to make sure the sap doesn't spread? because there's a huge fuzzy clump of it on his tail now.  It's also quite close to his body, and I'm afraid it'll transfer. ;_;

Also, I plan on getting the malachite green tomorrow. Is there any helpful dosage recipe or can I follow the instructions on the bottle?


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## Sakura8

Sap shouldn't spread to the body unless he has an open wound there. It usually only forms around open wounds. The IAL should help to keep it under control.

I haven't seen a bottle of the malachite so I don't know the dosing instructions. I'll see if I can find that out though and if it needs to be changed. But you definitely may want to use a temp tank because it stains glass/plastic/silicone.


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## britishbetta

Thank goodness! I'm stocking up on IAL right now! >_<


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## britishbetta

Sakura! Ever since stopping the metro in Shigeru's food, he's become quite listless and the holes in his fins have gotten much bigger over one night. The IAL doesn't seem to be stopping the saprolegnia. >_< 

Would it be possible to use some other medication pronto? Or should I really let one week go by before using the malachite green?


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## britishbetta

O Street Aquarium is also recommending Acriflavin over Malachite Green.


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## britishbetta

Should I move him on to aquarium salt?


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## britishbetta

I guess this is the last question for tonight: do you know what the ideal range for combating Sap is? Right now, his temperature is at 83 degree F


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## Sakura8

Acriflavin would probably be more efficient; malachite is an old standby. I didn't know it could be purchased over the counter. 

I'm worried that what Shigeru is facing isn't sap at all but a bacterial infection. The metro seems to have kept it under control but you may want to consider Kanaplex over acriflavin. 

I'm not sure but I haven't seen anything about temp affecting the growth/spread of sap so I think anywhere from 80-83 is fine for now.


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## britishbetta

So, bacterial infections can look like trailing pieces of gunk?  Interesting....


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## Sakura8

If it is chronic columnaris, possibly. It's really hard to get a definitive diagnosis without complicated medical tests that most places are utterly unwilling to do on a small betta. So we have to wing it.  It's hard to diagnose these little buggers. I know UCD works on larger fish like koi but I've never approached them about running a tissue test on a betta before. 

Columnaris can eat at the fins too and cause fuzzy gunk but so can external parasites and sapro and a few other things. If you are worried it might be columnaris, though, then turn the heat down the 75 because columnaris thrives in warm water.


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## britishbetta

The white strings appeared before I used a heater, though.....so I'm still more inclined to think it's Sap. Columnaris likes to be on the body as well, and I don't see that.


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## Sakura8

Okay, makes sense. Were you able to get acriflavin?


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## britishbetta

O Street won't have Acriflavin available until next week.  I will try and get it someplace else.


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## Sakura8

Okay, well, that works out anyway because he really needs to clear his system before he's put into another med.


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## britishbetta

Noted.

He's been floating at the surface of the water today. I don't know if it's because he hasn't pooped since yesterday and I may have given him too much brine shrimp this morning. He DOES NOT, fortunately enough, look swollen horizontally from above, as would indicate dropsy.

He IS a bit swollen from the side view, and it looks like he needs to go to the bathroom very badly. 

He's still active and eating. I changed the epsom salt to 2 tsp/gallon.

EDIT: He pooped. I hope he doesn't float on his side anymore. Gods, he loves stressing me out. Such a troll.


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## britishbetta

He's been getting even more strings of that white stuff all over his fins. They're moving closer to his body. 

I think I should be prepared for both columnaris and sap. In case it IS columnaris, what should I be looking at treating him with?


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## Sakura8

API Furan-2 works for columnaris, as does Seachem Kanaplex.


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## britishbetta

Okay, I have the kanaplex. 

Of course, I can continue to use the IAL while using malachite green?


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## Sakura8

After doing some reading and research, I'm really not sure he has sapro, at least not as his main problem. My source, The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases, says the patches are distinctive and form around wounds or other open areas. The patches of sapro are very different from the patches of "fuzzies" that accompany columnaris. He may have some form of true fungus if he had some tears on his fins but unless he has had open wounds on his body, he won't have sapro there. In addition, if he had sapro it would have spread over his body by now.

Also, check here:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/columnaris.html

Based on this and on your descriptions of his behavior, I'd say IAL and Kanaplex for columnaris is the better course of treatment.


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## britishbetta

Okay, kanaplex it is then. BTW, he's got a very dark grey belly now. Is that necrosis?

He's still active and hungry. O_O Good thing. 

As for kanaplex, is there an easier way to dose than what it says on the bottle? 
It says use 1 level measure which is 180 mg for every 5 gallons. To feed, blend 1 measure mixed with 1 tablespoon of frozen food paste. Do this every 2 days for a maximum of 3 doses. 

Also, would you happen to know if I can change the water in between doses at all? If I can't change the water, then I can't use epsom salt.

Can I use epsom salt with kanaplex?


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## Sakura8

You can use epsom salt with kanaplex; you should still be able to use the ES even though you wouldn't be changing the water every day. Is he still in 3 gallons? Then the dose would be about half a measure, a little less if you're not sure. Kanaplex is one of the meds that there's little harm in going slightly over the recommended dosage. So for Shigeru, half a measure every 2 days for a total of 3 doses. Change the water 100% before each new dose. 

As for feeding, you can actually mix it up the same way you did when you fed metro.


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## britishbetta

AWESOME. I am so glad. 

His belly and face are covered in this stuff: http://guppyfishh.blogspot.com/2012/04/flexibactercolumnarisdiseased-guppy.html

I'm so glad you kept telling me it's columnaris. >_<


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## britishbetta

....I figured out why the columnaris struck: It's the heater. I'm going to turn it down as well.

Shigeru loves higher temperatures, but so does columnaris. >_>


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## Sakura8

Yeah, after I did some more research on sap I realized the "fuzzies" in sap look way different than what you were describing. 

Probably was the heater. Darn those high temps. 

Gray bellies sometimes happen when they're sick, especially if it's an internal issue. In his case though, it could be more bacteria like on that sick guppy in the pic. As long as it's not bloating out too, I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## britishbetta

I am heaving a sigh of relief, because it sounds like it's still early and the meds can work. Actually, tears of relief.


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## Sakura8

As long as they're still eating, there's always a really good chance of full recovery. It's when they refuse food that I worry. 

Go Shigeru!


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## britishbetta

Actually, it's not clear to me from the instructions whether i should pouring it into his water AND mixing it with his food at the same time to treat him. I'm going to look around on the web for more information.


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## britishbetta

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3953
http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3844

According to their forums, it sounds like you either dose it in the water or feed it, not both. I think on account of the gray belly, feeding it to him would be better? I wonder if that would get the gunk off his skin.


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## britishbetta

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3935 I think this proves I can feed Shigeru the meds even for something growing on his skin.


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## britishbetta

Those links from above don't answer my next question though: If I feed the kanaplex to Shigeru, am I supposed to include it in EVERY meal?


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## britishbetta

He was pretty happy today after I fed him medicated food and increased his IAL. 

He hasn't pooped since Friday, and actually the color of his poop since Monday may not have been red/brown as is normal - I actually can't recall. Would this coupled with the grey belly indicate his digestive system has shut down? 

In that case, I'm really hoping the kanaplex he got this evening will kick start it again.

I know this is a lot of questions! Sorry!


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## crowntaillove

I just read through the whole thread. You've had quite an ordeal with this little guy! You're a fantastic betta momma! I'm rooting for the little guy. Keep us updated, I'm hoping he's going to make a full recovery!


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## britishbetta

Thank you so much! Shigeru is a spunky, feisty little guy. Even though he's sick, he still flared at his reflection today. I was so proud, haha.


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## Sakura8

Since you've already started him on the feeding course, I'd suggest we keep with it then. As for the actual feeding schedule . . . I'm not sure. It's probably safe to wing it but just to be sure, let me talk to DarkMoon and ask her advice.

I used to have some kanamycin flakes . . . can't remember what the feeding instructions were . . . hang on . . .


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## Sakura8

Okay. The instructions on the kanamycin flake are to feed exclusively for 10 days. Since Kanaplex is kanamycin, let's go with those instructions.


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## britishbetta

Okay. 10 days max it is then. I mixed in one full measure of kanaplex with 1 tablespoon of food, since that dosage doesn't seem dependent on how many gallons of water there are. Please correct me if I'm wrong. XD;;;;;


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## britishbetta

Also putting this here just for reference:

Bleaching tank and plastic plants: use 1 part bleach to 10 parts water to rinse tank. Then clean tank with water until the bleach smell is gone. Use extra dechlorinator for the next several water changse.

Kanaplex: Can be fed to him AND poured into his tank water directly simultanously.


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## Sakura8

Now, it sounds like a good plan of action.


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## britishbetta

Well, I've added the medicine to his water and food. The stuff's spread all over his body though, not just his face. :I If he doesn't poop, I can't feed him meds! Argh. 

Go Shigeru, go! To the bathroom, go! OTZ


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## britishbetta

Sakura, I've just had a scary thought. Shigeru's always had a white patch on his head. over time, it's gotten bigger but I always thought it was just marbling. What if it's a huge lesion?

Can you please tell me more about what lesions look like? There's no black or bloody edge to it, just his black scales suddenly end at the white patch. I can't see any white scales on the white patch, though.


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## britishbetta

After backlighting Shigeru with a strong flashlight, I think i can see a tiny, teeny divot in his outline where the white patch is. It really isn't THAT noticeable. If he's survived with a lesion from the very beginning until now, does that mean it's scarred over?


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## britishbetta

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...130&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0,i:109

Currently, Shigeru looks a lot like this.

EDIT: Should I be considering switching from Epsom to AQ salt at all?


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## Sakura8

A lesion would be red, raw, and very noticeable and probably have some sapro around the edges. Judging from the pic, Shigeru looks like he has the faintest dragonscale markings on his head and with dragons, a missing scale can look like a pothole because of the thick scaling. Since it seems healed over, most likely it IS marbling like you thought.


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## Sakura8

Lesions. Very nasty.

EDIT: Those fish are wild fish; pics are from fish and game, I think.

EDIT II: In columnaris, it's not so much lesions as it is "fuzzies." Those kind of ulcers like you see in that pic would typically be caused by mycobacteria or vibrio bacteria in the aquarium (positive diagnosis would have to be taken by a skin sample under a microscope to rule out anything else).


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## britishbetta

Whoops, that's not a pic of Shigeru himself, just a very similar one that shows the same "green" gunk on him! Forgot to make that clear! 

But that's good, it sounds like it isn't a lesion. Shigeru doesn't have anything that looks like what's on those wild fish either. *another sigh of relief*

My biggest problem at the moment is whether or not to raise the temperatures to help Shigeru go to the bathroom. *scratches head*


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## Sakura8

Well, I meant your avatar pic, actually.  I can just see his head and it looks like slight dragon scaling.

Slightly cooler water than normal shouldn't affect his digestive system so I'm not sure raising the temp would encourage him to go. But then again, it could be a Shigeru thing.


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## britishbetta

So the columnaris on his fins has receded a little which is great, but it's not really going away on his face yet. I have a feeling this is columnaris that has survived and developed a resistance to metro and it might be resisting the kanaplex. I saw a little bit of red on Shigeru's tail today, but the fin melting seems to have halted for the moment.

This is just to discuss it ahead of time, but in case Shigeru really doesn't poop before he hits critical mass, is it possible to fast him from medicated food? does that interrupt the kanaplex's effectiveness at all?


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## Sakura8

No, I think fasting him from medicated food would be okay. It's more important to not put anything in if nothing is coming out and he'll be getting meds from the water, as Kanaplex is absorbed really well by the gills. Let's see how the Kanaplex does after a full course. If the columnaris is still there, we can think about adding a second med.


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## britishbetta

Hey Sakura,

Is it ever normal for poo to look a mix of grey and brown? Will exoskeletons ever look grey?


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## Sakura8

If he's been eating brine shrimp, that's a possibility. Also, if he's now on ParaGuard, it could be he's passing some worms as well.


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## britishbetta

And if I've got this correctly, bloody edges to his fins would be due to fin rot or fin biting right?


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## britishbetta

And also, oh God, what if I fed him food soaked in un-dechlorinated water?! D8


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## Sakura8

Bloody edges are most likely from fin biting. I've had bettas with bloody edges and nothing ever happened. The fins healed eventually, until they tore them again.

Just that small amount of undechlorinated water wouldn't hurt him.


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## britishbetta

Thank goodness on both accounts!

He's actually doing pretty good so far. If I do have to start him on Paraguard, it would be Wednesday, but it seems he doesn't need it. 8> Yay!


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## Sakura8

Oh that's good he doesn't seem to need it. Whew! Go Shigeru!


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