# Early stages of dropsy?



## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank? *10*
Does it have a filter?*yes*
Does it have a heater? *yes*
What temperature is your tank? *80*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? *no*
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? *6 pygmy cories, 2 shrimp, a nerite snail, and some bladder snails*

*Food:*
What food brand do you use?*Omega One Betta Buffet Pellets, San Francisco Bay Brand frozen bloodworms*
Do you feed flakes or pellets? *pellets*
Freeze-dried? *No*
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? *3-4 pellets twice a day*

*Maintenance:*
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change?*weekly*
What percentage of water did you change?*20-30*
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water?*Vacuum top of sand*
What additives do you use? *Seachem Prime, Seachem Flourish, Flourish tabs, API Leaf Zone*

*Water Parameters:*
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you.

Ammonia: *0 ppm*
Nitrite: *0 ppm*
Nitrate: *5 ppm*
pH: *7.6*
Hardness (GH): *180*
Alkalinity (KH): *80*

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms? *last weekend*
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? *his stomach is bloated, he's pale, he appears to be losing weight*
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? *He seems itchy. He's rubbing up against plants and decorations and has started swimming under the driftwood (which is a very skinny space and he scraped himself)*
Is your Betta still eating? *yes*
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? *No treatment*
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? *mild ich once*
How long have you owned your Betta? Was he or she a rescue? *about a year and 3 or 4 months. He was from a LFS*

I noticed my betta swimming in tighter places than he used to but I chocked it up to him finding interesting places he hadn't explored before after following the corys around. He is getting paler and paler, and his stomach constantly looks extremely bloated, like he just ate an entire shrimp or cory (which he didn't. They're all still there). I'm wondering if this is a beginning sign of dropsy? His scales aren't raised at all. Tomorrow I'm leaving for a week so he will be in the care of relatives who would not be comfortable giving him daily water changes or medicating the water. He is getting a large water change before I leave. Should I get some of the Jungle Anti Parasite Medication? Since it's in food form they would probably be comfortable giving him that. Where would I be able to find it?


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

When they scratch on stuff its supposed to be a sign of external parasites.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I tried to get a picture of his from above but these are the best I can do. And I got a picture of his other side. I haven't seen anything on him at all. Would there be a way to tell if they're in his gills?


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

Is he poo-ing. It really stinks this is happening just before you have to go away!

He doesn't look very pine cone-y... how is his energy level? 

I'm not sure where you could get the anti parasite food locally..I had a tough time finding it...I know it's sold online which is not an option right now. You could soak his food in medicine to get it into him...but I know you are having caretakers come over so you are in a tough spot right now.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I have no clue if he's pooping. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen this fish poop in the entire year I've had him. His energy level seems a little low. He spends equal amounts of time at the top and bottom of the tank just like always, he comes to see me when I go up to the tank but he doesn't swim around as much as he used to, showing me how pretty he is.


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## DangerousAngel (Mar 26, 2015)

I'd recommend adding some Epsom salt, or doing a Epsom salt bath, you could also move him to a hospital tank and do 1 teaspoon per gallon. The epsom salt should relieve bloating/and constipation. Also, try fasting him for a day to 2.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

What was a hospital tank is now a home for a mess of a betta from Petco. Would the Epsom salt be ok for the other fish and inverts if I put it in the tank? Or should I just put him in a bowl for a quick Epsom salt bath?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

If he is scratching himself, it's usually external parasites. You may or may not be able to see them. You are feeding him 3-4 pellets twice a day, which is double what I feed mine, and your fish does look skinny from the top, so it could be internal parasites as well. Is he actually skinny or just very bloated? 

Can you get your hands on api general cure? If you can, it's good for both internal and external. You'll also need epsom salt and optionally daphnia. Here is what I would do:

1. Change his water - you want to leave it pristine for your caretakers, and you should always change water prior to medication.
2. Add 1 tsp/gallon epsom salt (dissolve it first).
3. If you can get api general cure then use that by instructions. It can be combined with epsom salt so you are good. You need to take out carbon if you have it and don't change the water while you are medicating. (Easy on your caregivers).
4. Fast him for a few days or until his tummy gets smaller (again, easy on the caregivers). Or feed him daphnia.
5. When he is ready to eat, soak his pellet in his tank water (this should be done every time anyway, but especially in this case as it will absorbs api general cure and deliver it internally where it can work on the bugs that are there).


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

If he has parasites then you should treat the whole tank anyway. Epsom salt is fine for plants. General cure is fine for fish, plants, and snails. I don't know about shrimp.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I have frozen daphnia. Would freeze dried be better? And I can go check Petco and Petsmart for api general cure


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Frozen is great. My petsmart (in Canada) has general cure. Maybe check the website or call them first before you go? There is another one that americans use... jungle parasite something.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Tetra/ Jungle Parasite Guard


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I just realized that he had ich before. Depending on how long ago, it might be a re-occurrence? I am not sure if general cure works for ich. API has an ich medicine as well. I never used it, so I don't know if it can be combined with general cure. You could try calling API if you have time. Or just roll with general cure, keep in touch with your fish-sitters and go from there.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I got Epsom salt and API General Cure. Tomorrow before my flight I'll do a huge water change and clean the top of the sand as well as I can, then I'll treat the tank. I'll have him fasted tomorrow, daphnia the next couple days, and soaked pellets after that. Thank you so much for your help!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The ich was at least 6 months ago and was in a different tank. There's nothing from that tank in this one. It was a really mild case. I haven't seen any white spots on him or any of the other fish


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I just read the General Cure directions and it says to put a second packet in the tank after 48 hours, then wait 48 hours and do a 25% water change. Should I ask to have the second dose put in and obviously not do the 25% water change 2 days later, or should I skip the second dose all together?


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

I wouldn't skip the second packet...you should finish the course of treatment once started.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Even though the water change won't be able to be done?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, do the 2nd dose. You have a 10 gallon filtered, presumably cycled tank. No worries. If you are concerned, have them put in Prime daily. I just did this with a 5 gallon (1 betta), no filter, large piece of mopani wood that holds cycling bacteria. Tested water at the end of 4 days because I was curious, and it showed ammonia = nitrites = nitrates = 0.

A word of caution, my betta looked a lot worse on the 1st day of treatment. I think the medicine was working so the bugs were squirming, which made him really itchy and stressed! He found the smallest darkest crack and sat there for 2 days. He did come out and eat though, so I knew he was alive. I was scared to put the 2nd dose in, but it didn't bother him at all, he just started feeling better and better. I treated another tank with guppies at the same time, didn't bother them at all. Go figure.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh and also I put it an air stone on gentle, it seemed to help him on day 1.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The tank is fully cycled. This one has been running for around 4 months, maybe 5. It's planted and has a piece of driftwood in it, as well as a hut and a small terra cotta planter to hide in. My betta is currently under the driftwood. Not sure how he got under there, but apparently he's been doing it a lot because he's dug himself a nice little area down there. I was only able to find him because his tail was sticking out a little bit. 

I'll ask to have the second dose put in and hopefully all goes well. Is it shrimp and snail safe by any chance?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh yeah, it'll be fine for 4 days. 

My pond snails were fine. I don't know about shrimp and nerite snails, I don't have any.

Don't do a massive water change, just do what you normally do on your big day.

Good luck!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh good because a large water change would be a pain in the butt! His fins are curled because the water here is so hard, so I filter it through a brita to prevent any new curling. It's bad enough to filter 2 gallons through one of those things. Any more than that and I may go a wee bit crazy.
I don't have an air stone to put in, so should I lower the water a little so the filter creates more surface agitation? 
Thank you for all your help!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

You are welcome! I don't really know, honestly my little guy looked terrible and I panicked because I never saw him just lying on the bottom like that. So I don't even know if the aerator helped him or me! I didn't have a filter or any water movement whatsoever in that tank, so you might be fine with just your filter. So I guess use your judgement. I don't know about lowering water level; the packet of medicine is for 10 gallons and you don't want your caregivers to accidentally overdose. I think I'd keep things as simple as possible for fish sitters and as routine as possible for the fish. Fingers crossed. Have a good flight!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

So from what I've been told he isn't getting any better. He's still bloated and spends a lot of time at the bottom of the tank on his side. I don't get back until Sunday so I won't be able to see for myself until then. Is there anything else I can do do help him when I get back?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Sabrinah, tell them to keep using epsom salt and not to feed him. Is he able to swim up for air? If it is laborious for him, they could lower the water level now that general cure is done. Other than that I don't know what else you/they can do. I am sorry.

When you get back though, take some more pictures and post here on his looks and behaviour. There are many others that can help you.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Well I got home about an hour ago and he isn't looking so hot. He's still massively bloated. It looks like his skin is ready to tear. He's hanging out at the bottom of the tank a lot but he does make the effort to get up and say hello. Also, his left eye is blue. Should I be worried about that? His right eye is normal and black. The tank is an absolute mess because it looks like the epsom salt made the anacharis melt. I'm going to clean it up and do a water change too. Should I dose the tank with enough epsom salt for all 10 gallons or only the 2 or 3 I take out? 

On a side note, I don't think General Cure is safe for shrimp. I'll know for sure if they're there or not once I clean it, but it doesn't look like they survived.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh and if I have to fast him for however long, should I fast the cories too? He would have to be removed from the tank for them to eat because he'll dig through the sand and plants for their food


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey, I am so sorry he is still feeling bad, but on the bright side he is still alive and you are home and can really take care of him now. 

If he was mine, I would take him out to a hospital tank. I think epsom salt should only be used for up to 10 days. Is there any flashing or bloating going on with the other fish? If not, then I would stop the salt in the main tank. It is advised to repeat General Cure 3-14 days (go figure) after the first treatment. So if you see flashing, definitely repeat it. If not, then I guess it's up to you.

Back to your betta. Take him out (you can float his hospital in the main tank) and keep him in very clean water, shallow, bare bottom. I think keep with the epsom salts for him, and either fast him or feed him daphnia if he'll eat it. At this point you want to really figure out what exactly is going on with him - has he got parasites (still), are they internal, is it sbd or is it something else. So watch his poop (is it white and stringy?) and behaviour (lethargic, itchy, etc).

Please someone with more experience jump in!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The other fish seem fine, but I really only see them briefly while they dart by so I can't say for sure. I rarely ever see him poop but I'll check on him more often and hopefully I'll get lucky. 

Would this work as a hospital tank? http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005Q...eeding+box&dpPl=1&dpID=415N6F+PJBL&ref=plSrch

Or should I opt for something with no filter?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

No filter is just fine for a hospital! Most medications need you take the filter out anyway. A lot of people use kritter keepers (petsmart), they come in various sizes up to 5 gallons. Or you can just use a glass jar.

Here is my set up: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=661162

The nice thing about it that I can either have him in jars (for treatments that require daily 100% water changes) or in the bigger tank, so I can adjust it however I need.

PS. That's why you want bare bottom, it makes it so easy to monitor poops.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh, and you only dose the salt for the amount of water you take out. Salt stays in the tank, it does not evaporate or go anywhere, so if you are just topping up than don't use any at all.

Just to make sure, salt was only dosed the once just before you left for the 10 gallon tank, right? They didn't add more while you were gone?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Nothing was added to the tank besides the second dose of General Cure and some Prime. The best I can do for a quarantine tank right now is a plastic container that I think is around a gallon. Besides that all I have is super tiny jars. My 5 gallon that was meant to be a hospital tank but became a home for another betta. Would he be ok in the container (heater not possible) for a few days so I can watch his poop until I can do another treatment of General Cure? I figure I should treat the entire tank again since I'm not sure whether the other fish are affected. He didn't develop these problems until after the fish were added, so I'm assuming he got something from them.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, good. 

He definitely needs to be heated. Can you float the container you have in your big tank? Otherwise you can get the breeders box, but I just think that you can find something cheaper since you don't need a filter.

Hmm, I am wondering, since you said that he eats the other fish's food that it might be what's clogging up his system. I would keep him in the container even while you treat the big tank, or make a divider or something, so that you can really monitor not just the poops but also what he eats until he is healthy.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

When I fast him I of course fast the other fish too. Even after 3 days of no food he was still as bloated as ever. The container I have is too big to be floated. I don't have a car so getting to any pet store for another container is a bit of a challenge, but I can try to persuade my grandma to take me. If I can get to a store is there anything else I should pick up?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh, you can use any container, tupperware or smaller plastic storage box from wallmart will work, you don't have to go to a pet store to get one. Grandmas often do canning, does she have a 1 gallon or even 1/2 gallon glass canning jar?

Quick question: what do you feed the other fish, and is your betta still eating if you tried to feed him?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

She doesn't do things like that sadly. I found a small old plastic container that's going to have to do the trick. I can't bear to keep him in here any longer than it takes to see his poop. 

The other fish are fed hikari micro pellets. Everyone gets supplemental frozen daphnia and bloodworms whenever I feel like defrosting some. My betta is still eating fine. His appetite is never a concern!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, so it's a betta-friendly diet, good. Ok, so change his water every day, feed him daphnia and watch those poops and his behind. Sometimes you can see worms hanging out.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I saw a little speck of white hanging out earlier but it disappeared so I'm not quite sure what it was. Will it be fine to put him back in the tank in 3 days to do another round of General Cure or should I keep him in his tiny prison and just fill the cup up with the treated water from the big tank every day?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Could I try soaking the pellets (the ones for the betta and the ones for the cories) in a mixture of garlic juice and the General Cure? I'm not sure if they were soaked long enough to absorb the meds while I was gone.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I think I would keep him in the little cup, personally, and fill it up regularly with the medicated water from main tank like you said. If he starts passing dead bugs, you want to monitor that and suck them out; you don't want them in your main tank.

Yes, soak his food for sure! The thing I don't know is whether soaking in just the medicated aquarium water is good enough or if you need to make a concentrated soak. Here is the info if you want to try and figure it out, it didn't quite make sense to me when I read it:



> General Cure can be used as a medicated fish food soak by using 1/2 a packet for an average 60 gallon bio load medicated fish preparation. Fish food should be soaked for 15 minutes
> After soak, pour entire contents into aquarium. (Additional medication can be added for a full tank treatment; for example with a 30 galloin aquarium, use 1/2 packet in the food soak and use the other half plus two more packets in the aquarium.)


Ref: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#general

and more info here: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html#praziquantel


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

It doesn't make any sense to me either. I can't seem to find any explanation for making medicated fish food that makes any sense at all. I'm determined to figure it out!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Good for you! When you figure it out, let me know. My family is getting frustrated with the amount of time I spend researching. LOL It's just that whenever I do something, especially treating a little sick being that depends on me, I want to know WHY I am doing what I am doing.

For what it's worth, I think most people just soak it in the tank water. Still, if there is a more effective way, I'd sure like to know.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Here is another reference from that same website; this one makes more sense:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#food_delivery


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I did eventually get to PetSmart and got a decent sized critter keeper to float in the tank. I couldn't stand seeing him in that tiny cup! So far he hasn't pooped.

For the food it seems like a lot of people just divide up a packet of General Cure and make a few gallons of treated water to mix the food in, along with epsom salt and garlic juice. I can't figure out the rationalization for the dosing other people do. It's just a big bowl of pellets, two packets of General Cure, a sprinkle of epsom salt, and a few cups of water. They don't explain how they figured out how much to use, which is annoying.


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

I personally do a concentrated soak. I also bought focus because it is a binding agent. I've stopped using the focus now...but I let the food soak a long time before I give it. In try to stir it and mix it....The floating betta log has made it much easier to make sure he gets his medicated food....


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Cakes, what's your recipe for the soak?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He pooped! So far there's no worms. If he doesn't have parasites what could it be?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Is there one poop or two on the picture? What's the long brown thing right in the middle? The one on top looks good. (6 months ago I would never have imagined myself examining sick fish's poop. LOL)

How is he feeling? Is his tummy any smaller? How is the itching?

Other than the culprits we are already addressing (i.e. parasites and/or overfeeding and/or swim bladder) I really don't know what else could cause itching and bloat. I mean there are other things, like internal infection or organ failure, but I think if that was the case than he would be showing more symptoms of dropsy. His belly is not grey, his scales are not protruding, and even if it was dropsy we are already treating it the way it's described in the sticky. http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73332 What's your temperature by the way? I just noticed the sticky recommends setting it to 84F.

I know we are being watched (hint hint mods and other experienced betta lovers LOL), so if there is anything to add or correct, someone please chime in.


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

I've seen a few recipes for this medicated food. You can even make a paste...which I did the first few times but now I just use a tiny ceramic bowl and use garlic guard and I sprinkle the medicine in and mix it around. I let it marinate awhile and mix it from time to time. Then I add the pellets and I let them soak a long time. I feel like the Omega pellets do more soaking than the new life because they are so small.
My guy was blowing up like a balloon a couple of weeks ago but his energy level was normal.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Cakes, the recipes that you've seen or the one that you use, is there an explanation posted for them anywhere? I mean, how do you know you are not overdosing? I have been paranoid about it.


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

I'm not worrying about overdosing....the way my fish was looking overdosing was the least of my worries. 

But here are some links to look at ...I watched the youtube ones...but they are for really big batches...but it gives you the idea..

http://www.swagbucks.com/?sfp=h&t=w&p=1&isHomeMain=true&q=how+to+make+medicated+fish+food


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks cakes. I hope your little guy is feeling better?


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

Yes he is! I had him aspirated at the vet..I'm sure if I didn't do that he would of died. So far he has not filled up again. It's going on two weeks now. I'm still medicating him.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

There are two poops. His stomach seems like it has very slightly reduced. He's swimming and eating fine, although he's extremely upset about being in a container instead of having the run of the tank. 

The water is currently 80 degrees. The weather is weird right now so I don't feel comfortable setting it any higher without risking it getting too high on a particularly hot day. He doesn't have anything to really itch himself on in his container, but he seems to be trying by swimming against the bottom on his side. 

Cakes, where do you get the garlic guard? I've been to both Petco and PetSmart and they don't have any. I'm about to order some online to have on hand just incase


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## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

I got it online at Dr Foster and Smith...I'm sure amazon would have it. My local fish stores also carry it.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Sabrinah, lucky! It's snowing here. In April. Hadn't snowed all winter and now it decides to.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Snow would be amazing! It's supposed to be 90 here today. I would much rather play in the snow


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, let's trade.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Yesterday I put in another packet of General Cure. I've been soaking his food in tank water for half an hour before feeding him. There's still no change. I'm not sure what else to do


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

The next step would be to cross parasites off the list and look into other issues (sbd, internall infection, etc). How is his behaviour? Is he active, is he still itchy, how is his swimming? Can we have another picture? How are the other fish? At this point I am useless, I haven't dealt with internal problems before.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I figured I would wait until the second round of General Cure to update. He still itches himself on the sides of his quarantine tank and had a swollen stomach. He's active when I come up to the tank and still eating fine.

He is a double tail, which I've heard are more prone to swim bladder problems. The other fish seem fine, but I'm really not positive. All the shrimp in the tank have died but I'm pretty sure that's from the General Cure. He didn't cooperate well with pictures so this was the best I could do


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

This picture doesn't show it well, but his stomach is still very large


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His eyes are looking a little swollen today and he's still underweight. He seems to be consistently pooping every other day, which I'm taking as a good sign. There's nothing white and stringy in his poop at all so I'm pretty sure internal parasites can be ruled out. He's still really bloated and unless I'm directly in front of his tank he spends all his time laying at the bottom of the container on his side. His scales also seem more defined from the side. From the top they still appear flat, but from the side they don't look like they're sitting quite right. Eating is also not a problem at all. 

The other fish are extremely active and the ones I've seen don't look bloated at all, so I'm guessing they're fine.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

One more thing I also forgot to mention! He seems to have increased his slime coat production in the last couple days. There's clear slimy stuff trailing off his tail a little bit and small clumps at the bottom of the container. It's quite gross.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Wow, I am so sorry, I am really at a loss. Do you want to try and treat for dropsy? There are instructions in the Deseases sticky. Here is an article that you might find useful:
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/11/betta-with-dropsy.html

You could also try this tool to see if you can get a better diagnosis: http://www.fishyportal.com/diag/

Good luck, let us know what you decide.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Since I don't know what else to do I think I'm going to try treating for dropsy. I'll do 100% daily water changes in his little container and keep it constantly dosed with epsom salt. I'll order Kanaplex tomorrow and do double strength 30 minute baths in that daily with epsom salt. Since his baths will be in his quarantine tank (which will already contain epsom salt), would it be ok to just put the Kanaplex in the tank for 30 minutes then change the water, or should I change the water, put the Kanaplex and epsom salt in, then change the water again after the bath? That seems like a lot of water to go through, and we are in a drought here in California.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hmm, I am not sure about using epsom salt for longer than 10-14 days. For baths, you are supposed to use a fresh mix every bath, but you don't need to use a lot of water. Even 1/4 gallon is fine, provided you can measure kanaplex accurately for that amount.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I've read a few things (one of which was somewhere on this site) that said bettas can be kept in Epsom salt indefinitely because it's not real salt. Aquarium salt is what should be limited. I'll have to let the directions on the kanaplex dictate how much water I use! I don't want to risk dosing wrong


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Well I gave him his first dose of kanaplex today. I'm hoping I got the dosing somewhat accurate, because I had to divide the scoop into fifths then divide one of those in half since he's only in half a gallon of water. I mixed a little bit of kanaplex and a little water to soak some food in. Hopefully this does the trick because his scales appear to be raising.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh man, I hope he pulls through!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

So do I! I'm a little confused about the treatment though. It says to add another dose in 2 days, for up to 3 doses. It sounds like there shouldn't be a water change during that time, but he's only in half a gallon of water. I don't really feel comfortable not changing any of the water for up to a week. I did make another thread asking about it but no one has responded.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

The advice I got was to change the water, but pre-mix the correct dosage for new water. Hmm, how can I phrase that better? So do your 100% water change, and mix double dose of the med for new water. Next time change with 100% new water and put triple dose. Does that make sense?

One thing I don't understand is whether the medicine wears off after 2 days, in which case I don't know if putting in two fresh doses will work.

What if you dose it in a bucket? So let's say fill a 5G bucket and dose the med for 5 gallons. Take out 1 gallon (just easy to calculate) for his tank. Then 2 days later dose the second dose into that same bucket, but this time there will be 4 gallons so adjust for that. Take out 1 gallon and change his water with that. Next time dose the bucket for 3 gallons, etc. Just an idea.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I mind as well try two fresh doses tomorrow because I'm not quite sure what else to do. It's still a little painful not doing a water change today because his slime coat production is awful and there's clumps everywhere!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ew. I wonder what's causing it. I don't think dropsy normally causes slime.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Any time he's had any time of medication his slime coat has gone mad. Ich treatment and General Cure made it happen too


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Interesting. How is he holding up?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Well he's alive still. One of his eyes is so cloudy I doubt he can see. It also looks like it's about to pop out. The little pineconing that started has stopped, but the scales still aren't laying quite flat on that side. His belly is still massive, and he's still super skinny. On the bright side, he loves food so much that he doesn't care about it being medicated, so no garlic is required.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I figured I mind as well share a picture of how he sleeps now, which never ceases to give me a mini heart attack. Since his stomach has gotten so large he's of course had a harder time keeping it lifted. He used to sleep at the bottom of the aquarium, either on his side or propped up against some plants. He can't lay flat anymore though, so he lays arched. He looks dead and it's terrifying. Since I'm using my phone there's a good chance the picture will be sideways.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Wow, poor guy and poor you, it's so traumatizing to see them this way.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Today he'll be getting his third dose of kanaplex, which is the max the directions say to give. Improvement is minimal at this point. The pineconing hasn't advanced at all, but he still looks 9 months pregnant with quadruplets and his eye is still completely cloudy. He's a pig, so he's still eating fine. Unless I'm in front of the tank he doesn't move from the bottom


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hmm. Here is a write-up about kanaplex: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html#kanamycin. Read the whole thing if you haven't seen it yet, and also the dropsy link from that article, but here's the interesting bit:



> Here are two that can blended:
> *Aquatronics Spectrogram:
> Kanamycin can be combined with Furan 2 to make an even more wide spectrum treatment, especially for difficult cases of Columnaris or Aeromonas.
> 
> ...


So according to that, you can increase the dose to daily for up to 10 days and/or mix in another drug (see above) if you wanted a stronger treatment.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Here's on Furan 2: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#furan

...and metronidazole is one of the meds in general cure.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I mind as well buy Furan 2 and MetroPlex just to be safe, even if I don't use both. I'll probably stick with daily or twice daily baths for the sake of his kidneys. My local stores have a pathetic stock of fish meds so I'll have to buy it online. Hopefully double dose baths of kanaplex will be good enough. Should I put a double dose of Epsom salt in the bath as well? I keep a very low dose (about 1/8 teaspoon per gallon) in his quarantine tank at all times because it helps enormously. Without it he can barely get himself off the bottom. He'll still get his third dose of Kanaplex later today just in case a miracle happens and he starts improving. This fish may very well cost me all my college financial aid but I'll be damned if I'm letting him die!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

On a bit of a lighter note, say hello to Spike! He's healed up marvelously since I freed him from his cup of death. If only both fish could be healthy at the same time


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

It actually looks like I wouldn't be able to get MetroPlex until the end of the month due to shipping. Is it worth getting anyway, or should I just stick with Furan 2?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Sorry Sabrinah, I have no idea. At this point I am just passing resources that I have come across in the past and thought they were good. 

How is he doing today?

Hello Spike! Aren't you a handsome one!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His other eye is getting cloudy now. I'm fairly certain he can't see out of the one that's completely cloudy. He's still eating fine. The Furan 2 should be here on Friday


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Poor guy. :-( I hope Furan 2 helps.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I have about a third of an Indian almond leaf in with him and it really helps so much. He's been more active since its been in there. Whatever magical properties are in the tannins seem to be easing his discomfort at least a little


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't want to forget the treatment I plan on doing so I'm going to post it just in case! The plan is to do a half an hour bath every 48 hours. It will be a mixture of Kanaplex, Furan 2, and ParaGuard to imitate Aquatronics Paragon 2 as much as possible.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I started the baths last night. He's getting them every 24 hours. So far there is no improvement. Slight pineconing is back. After a month of trying different treatments, is there even a chance of full recovery, or will it be this constant state of management? Many sites have said if dropsy is cured the betta is likely to get sick again, so is there actually any chance of saving him?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Sabrinah,

From what I've read, the chance of recovery from dropsy is very small. If the medicine you are using is not helping, then it might not be infection related at all. His organs might be failing, in which case I don't think there is anything you can do. I am so sorry.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Improvement is very slight but it's there. He's more active, the pineconing is going back down, and there's a very slight decrease in abdomen size. He still has Popeye and cloudy eye though. One of the medications in the bath is supposed to treat that. He's had 3 baths already. I'll do 7 more, and if there aren't any more signs of improvement I guess it may be time to give up.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Or you might want to consider doing an in-tank treatment instead of baths. It strikes me that it would be stronger. I understand that you are worried about his kidneys, I would be too. But on the other hand, if baths are weaker than might there be a risk that bacteria will become immune to the meds? I don't know, just thinking out loud.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The combination is too strong to be more than a bath according to the website. At most I believe it can be an hour bath. I have put the Epsom salt back in his tank and am again treating his tank with Kanaplex as well as putting it in baths. It seems to be helping


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I hope it works! Keep me posted.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The biggest improvement has been with his sleeping position. I believe I posted a picture at some point in this thread of how he's slept since he became so bloated, with his face and stomach against the bottom of the tank and the rest of his body in an awkward arch because he couldn't get it flat. As of last night he can sit at the top of the tank for an extended period of time (before he would slowly sink until his stomach hit the bottom of the tank) and he can sleep how he used to when he was healthy (on the bottom of the tank propped up against something, in this case IAL). I'll try to get new pictures of him. He only wants to show off the side with the most improvement. Looking at his left side he looks almost healthy again (besides the pop eye and cloudy eye), but on the right side he's clearly bloated still.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He was not pleased one bit with the trip to the bathroom for better lighting. He threw a fit the entire time. Don't mind the rocks in each corner of the tank. If they aren't in there the container floats too much and pushes the lid up off the main tank completely. Hopefully you can see the slight improvement. His stomach definitely isn't sticking as far down, although it does still swell to the sides.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Looks encouraging. I really hope he pulls through! BTW, I read somewhere that baths can be used for longer than in-tank treatments, so you might be able to continue past the 10 days if you need to. I looked around and can't find where I read that, so sorry for the vague info.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I've been thinking of increasing the baths to an hour since he's tolerating them so well. I read somewhere about double dosing the meds for short baths too, so I may do that instead.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, I just looked over some of the links I gave you before and it says to double med dose for baths. It also says you can do 30 min baths twice a day.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Twice a day and double dose? Or one or the other?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Looks like baths twice a day for 30 minutes each time and double dose and some salt. AND kanaplex in tank as well! Here is the link:

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/11/betta-with-dropsy.html

I was just thinking about why he puts methylene blue in the bath. No idea.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't know why but methylene blue seems to be a popular choice. I suppose I mind as well try it. I can replace the paraguard with it in the baths


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> I was just thinking about why he puts methylene blue in the bath. No idea.


It's primarily used as an oxidizer which helps cells bind oxygen (more oxygen in cells aid in recovery)*. This is handy in cases where methomoglobinemia (good lord I think I spelled that right. Please don't judge me if I didn't, I'm on a cell with low battery but my instincts tell me I did x_x..) occurs like in cases of N compounds poisoning. It's also useful as a medication against some fungal and parasitic and bacterial infections (Very handy when you have fish eggs you want to hatch to prevent fungal growths). 

Also, nerdy extras: You can totally use meth blue on fish to literally dye injuries and areas where the slime coat has been damaged (stains necrotic cells). It's also used to stain bacteria.

Edit:
*Aid in recovery and aid in medication effectiveness.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The science side of bettafish has spoken! Thank you for that! It really dyes external injuries blue? I can see how that could be extremely useful


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, Dalloway! Woohoo! Sabrinah, you are in good hands now! LOL


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The betta just finished his fourth bath, which was double dose everything. He handled it marvelously but I'm pretty sure he's going to kill me in my sleep based on the look he was giving me. Methylene blue has been ordered. Dropsy has proven to be a $90 illness thus far.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yikes. :-(

My betta does pretty nearly kill me in my sleep. I keep having these dreams of too many betta boys in too few tanks. They either end up close to murdering each other or - this one is really weird - learning how to fly and continuously flying out of their tanks.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Hell hath no fury like an angry fighting fish! I've been having dreams about trying to breed two males together


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> The science side of bettafish has spoken! Thank you for that! It really dyes external injuries blue? I can see how that could be extremely useful


It does~ I've used it multiple times over scarring injuries (it's also dyed my own cuts on more than one occasion because I never remember to use gloves >_>) and twice for fin trimming to get ahead of a fin disease in a black moor I took in. It's been particularly helpful in the latter case as the fish was young and entirely black at the time so I used it as a guide to tell apart healthy tissue. I have little experience using it on Betta but it did dye the ends of my first Betta who was a chronic fin biter.

Ah, and I recommend using a towel or old t-shirt under whatever you don't want ruined by it. I've got meth blue stains on more than one piece of furniture and even the wood floor of my room. It's not forgiving at all... It also temporarily stains (it's been my experience that fierce scrubbing with tooth brush and vinegar helps get it out) the silicone on aquariums as well as permanently staining anything plastic or silk plants if you use it as an in-tank treatment at recommended dosage.



olgamc said:


> Yeah, Dalloway! Woohoo! Sabrinah, you are in good hands now! LOL


 You're too kind~ I'm still playing catch up on the thread though ^^;. My school finals start next week so I'm running on limited time these past few weeks but I'll try to be on and read as much as I can.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> I've read a few things (one of which was somewhere on this site) that said bettas can be kept in Epsom salt indefinitely because it's not real salt. Aquarium salt is what should be limited. I'll have to let the directions on the kanaplex dictate how much water I use! I don't want to risk dosing wrong


Still reading through but I just felt the need to say that I've seen a lot of people claim that epsom salt isn't real salt so it's okay but the fact is that, put simply, a salt doesn't need to contain sodium to be classified as a salt so I'm not entirely sure where those people are going with that. Furthermore, epsom salt is considered useful for dropsy and such because it is a diuretic, it aids in the secretion of fluids. Long term use of diuretics can cause dehydration and decreased potassium uptake levels and if you're increasing the release of fluids, you're putting strain on the kidneys of the fish along with the strain of the medication you're using. 
This is a good discussion on it that was what got me interested in this topic in the first place: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=255001

This isn't to say epsom salt is bad but personally I find that it has the most use in high dose concentrations for fish baths or even stronger concentrations for dips rather than in tank treatments. 

Also, there are a small number of plants that are much more sensitive to any kind of salt treatment. Sadly, I too learned the hard way anacharis is one of them. Other plants for future reference I know of that are hypersensitive to salt: floaters (in particular frogbit), vallisneria, Crypts (crypts just hate any kind of change in my tanks. period.), and sagg.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

> My school finals start next week so I'm running on limited time these past few weeks but I'll try to be on and read as much as I can.


I feel your pain! Mine are in a month but all the professors are trying to squeeze in last minute tests, projects, essays, etc. It's hectic! 

Would you recommend I stop using Epsom salt? I've felt like I should stop because it's been so long but everything I read insists it's important to keep using it. Oh and I've read a few things about using aged water but nothing said why. Do you recommend it? Would it have to be aged in an open container? that wouldn't be possible because between 3 cats and a dog it would get filled with hair, someone would drink out of it, or someone would jump in it. 

My anacharis and vals are still a disaster from the salt and meds. They don't seem to want to grow back. My crypts didn't have much of a problem with it though. Only a couple leaves melted and growth slowed.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Urgh, tell me about it. From my semester project presentation and essay to my maaaaath. There's so much math hw I have NOT been keeping up with due to it all being due only at the end of the semester appealing to my procrastinating nature haha..ha... Oops. This is not a math course I should have done this with.

I still haven't caught up fully but how long have you been using epsom salt, has it been an in-tank or bath treatment, and have you stopped in between? I think 30 minute baths are fine to use for longer than the recommended 10-14 days, especially if he's been recovering well. Also, if the treatment you're currently using is showing improvements, stick with it.

I'm not entirely sure why they said to use aged water specifically but the only two things that come to mind are in cases like my source water which sometimes comes out of the tap at an unholy 8+ pH then crashes really quickly, even if not using a bubbler (this is usually in spring or winter when the sewers flood or if there's been an issue and they've treated it more [in which case it also comes out smelling of chlorine and opaque. It's still safe to use with a good conditioner that treats for heavy metals as well but the parameters can be way off from the tank] and also my tap water has absolutely no hardness to speak of to begin with so pH crashes are a regular part of my life..). This isn't necessarily an issue when doing partial water changes up to 50% (depending on the sensitivity levels of the species you're working with) but can be a big issue with sick fish that need to be introduced to large volumes of the new paramters quickly. 
Which brings us to the other case with baths and especially dips where you not only want to limit the amount of time the fish is in the really high concentration treatment water but you also don't want to shock him with rapid parameter changes. But the latter case can be resolved by premixing the medication in a separate container and cupping the fish and acclimating him to the new water conditions and then adding the meds to that water. When the bath is done just add in 25-50% of the clean water to reacclimate him.

Also, if you do want to age water for any reason, you can keep it in a closed container and use an air pump and bubbler to "age" it quickly. In my house it's not the dog that sheds into things (my pup's a poodle so thankfully very little shedding), it's me XD. Strands or my hair are regularly in the tanks lol.

Well geez, crypts always hate me x_x.. Then again, low hardness = hard to control water parameters. Trimming all the yellowed bits up to about 1-2mm into the green bits of anacharis seems to be the best way to have it regrow. Green stems that shed all its leaves will usually recover slowly with time.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The Epsom salt was in the main tank for the first couple weeks, but I haven't put any in since then and have done multiple large water changes on it. The betta has been in his quarantine tank for a couple weeks now. Epsom salt has been in it most of the time but I do give him breaks for a few days every once in a while. I should probably stick with only having it in the baths from now on. 

My tap water has a pH of around 7.5 and is rather hard. Thankfully I've never had to deal with pH crashes!

His improvement seems to have stopped. His slight pineconing is back. I wish he would cooperate and let me get a picture from the angle the pineconing can be seen. It's only on his underside so far. I'll try to get new pictures.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I also read that epsom salt is effective in a bath but not as a long term (as in past 10 days) constant additive.

To minimize parameter difference for the baths, the advice I read was to use the tank water. Dip some out, mix in the meds, put fish in, then top up the tank with fresh water while the fish is having his bath.

For aging what I understand is that tap water contains a lot of oxygen under pressure. You know those bubbles you get on the walls of the tank? Apparently they can form on the inside of the fish and kill it. So it is recommended to de-oxygenate tap water by either aging it or faster by warming up/boiling. That is if you are doing a 100% water change or bath with just tap water. I don't think it's such an issue when you are just doing a 25% water change, though maybe some fish are more susceptible than others, I don't know.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Hmm, I'll go back and continue reading before I get back to you since I also don't think I read what your last treatment plan was when I commented on the MB but if there's no improvement with epsom salt in tank then definitely try a switch to higher doses in baths to see if that's more effective. 

;~; I know I should be thankful since soft water is easier and cheaper to fix than it is to soften hard water and that's been a big help for some of the Cory I kept but... I do envy you! My pH once crashed to a level lower than the API low pH test reads..

Edit:



olgamc said:


> To minimize parameter difference for the baths, the advice I read was to use the tank water. Dip some out, mix in the meds, put fish in, then top up the tank with fresh water while the fish is having his bath.


I think I find it better to use fresh water for no specific scientific reason really but that tank water, unless recently changed, will usually contain less electrolytes and such and also... I just feel like my instincts that tell me that clean water = happy fish somehow apply to baths?? Or maybe I'm just aching for bubble baths and taking it out on my fish subconsciously.. But you might be right there. If the tank water's clean that's another way to go about it~



olgamc said:


> For aging what I understand is that tap water contains a lot of oxygen under pressure.


Some fish are definitely more susceptible than others. This is very, very rarely an issue and I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. You'll definitely see this effect in really delicate saltwater species like seahorses apparently but I doubt there's enough pressure in the tap water to really cause that effect in most other species. Everything I've read on gas bubble disease (gbd) has been, at best, anecdotal. I don't even think there's much factual backing that that's exactly what causes gbd in seahorses. I've always used fresh tap water over the years and have never come across this in any of my fish.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Just for the heck of it I'll fill a 5 gallon bucket. At least it will make life a little easier with the constant water changes. 

The Epsom salt does help quite a bit but I don't want to keep him in it if it's not good for him. I'll just put a good dose in his baths. He looks better and worse at the same time. He's just so pale! It makes me nervous that his scales rose back up, even with the baths, so maybe methylene blue will be that kick that he needs. It should be delivered tomorrow. Ya know I probably could have saved myself $6 with that. We've used methylene blue in Chem and I'm 90% sure my chem prof would have had no problem sneaking me a bit. She even gave me the go ahead to measure out the fish meds using the scales in the lab if I needed to. 

Question: Can dropsy affect the spine? Because my boy has been looking a bit crooked. 

Random Question: Dalloway, what's your major if you don't mind me asking?

I figure I should post some progress pictures so they're all together. The first two are from 3/24, when I first realized something was very wrong (I'm still mad at myself for getting so distracted with healing up my new betta for a week that I didn't notice anything sooner. Second two are from 4/3. I believe by that point he'd been through a full round of General Cure. Fifth is from 4/11. Second round of General Cure was either completed or in progress I think. Sixth is from 4/18. Everything else if from today. I have no clue why the pictures like to post themselves sideways. I blame the iPhone.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Ok, so I used my spreadsheet template because I'm a geek and even my fish's feeding schedules are on spreadsheets and this is what I have thus far for your boy:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XFknaF6CNNoAn5nlhLlFsw6HJkK7TiEFZIHhye3Kw4w/edit?usp=sharing

^
It's an edit-able link so feel free to use it if it helps you. I don't think you even need a Google account.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I got a little lost here at this bit, are you using the regular in tank dose for baths? Also, is there a lump near his caudal or am I seeing things due to the reflection?



sabrinah said:


> Question: Can dropsy affect the spine? Because my boy has been looking a bit crooked.


The fluid buildup can affect organ placement and can cause the spine to curve unfortunately.



sabrinah said:


> Random Question: Dalloway, what's your major if you don't mind me asking?


I don't mind. I'm a mechanical engineer/biomedical engineer major. I went in for chemistry because I wanted to go into nuclear or pharmacy but somehow... I drifted.. There's too much math now, what have I done?!? But it's mostly fun though, can't complain too much C:.

I'll post this then edit in a bit, I'm going to switch PCs so I can see the images better.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

And I took too long to come back and edit..
It not only looks like he's curving a little but he's also forming a lump to one side toward the back? I don't think he's pineconing yet in my opinion, it just looks like his scales are being raised from the bloated belly.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I was using a dose appropriate for 1/2 gallon of water (which is what his qt tank is, and what his new bath tank is), but have double it. Ever heard of the betta dial a treat thing? Well that little red scooper is great for medication measuring. 1 gallon of Furan 2 is two rounded scoops, 1 gallon of Kanaplex is one packed, level scoop. It look a lot of measuring to figure that out, but it was worth it! 

That template is wonderful! Thank you so much for making it!

He's always had that lump by his caudal. I freaked out about it at first but according to the internet (I think I posted here, too) it's normal for double tails because of their swim bladder issues. My new double tail has the same thing. It just looks worse on the sick one because he's gotten so damn pale and skinny. I can post one of his baby pictures if you would like so you can see it. 

Curved spin is definitely happening. Organ placement shifting would explain why his stomach is looking more lumpy than smooth these days.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He was a cute baby so I'm posting it anyway. You can just barely see the lump in the picture.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> Ever heard of the betta dial a treat thing? Well that little red scooper is great for medication measuring. 1 gallon of Furan 2 is two rounded scoops, 1 gallon of Kanaplex is one packed, level scoop. It look a lot of measuring to figure that out, but it was worth it!


XD I think I got a little too giddy reading that lol! I bought a scale a while back to measure out fertilizers and meds but it's a pain to take out.

No problem :3. I tend to use spreadsheets for everything these days, it's actually become a habit? It helps to follow progression and keep up with meds.

Ah, ok, one of mine has that too as well as the first boy, a VT, I owned but just wanted to make sure it wasn't a new growth. Because given what you've used to treat thus far, if this isn't an infection (and personally it doesn't seem to be parasites), then my next best guess would be a tumor. Sadly, if this is the latter then treatments aren't going to be much help but if this is a bloating and fluid build up in his body then the baths at double dose with ~.5tsp/g of epsom salt. I would wait until the MB arrives then do a double dose of that as well in the bath and treat it all together.

Also, do you have Kordon NovAqua? I would do an extra half strength extra dose of that if you do. Given that his slime coat is weak, Kordon's formula is really good for slime coat production/strengthening and with all these medications along with salt, it would definitely be beneficial.

And he is soooooo adorable! He's got such a beautiful color on him, I do so hope he gets better soon ;_;.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I do not have NovAqua. I do have StressCoat though, which I believe increases the slime coat. Would that work? If at the end of all this he still hasn't improved it has got to be a tumor. What else could make it through all this medication? I've bought half of Amazon at this point! If it is a tumor, I'm guessing the kinder thing to do would be to send him to fishy heaven rather than let him slowly die.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Not sure about Stress Coat. All I've heard from it is that aloe benefits for fish is anecdotal and that the synthetic slime coating formula they use isn't very effective but I've definitely not done enough chemistry yet to know what's what on it. But it definitely isn't going to hurt.

If his stomach continues to look more lumpy and if that curvature at the top near his spine is another lump (it kind of looks like a lump on the 3rd to last photo on post 119 but then it doesn't look like a lump everywhere else so I'm not sure if my eyes are playing games with me), it's most likely he's growing tumors. It's just that given what you mentioned earlier that he did have a difference in swelling that makes me think this isn't that.



sabrinah said:


> I've bought half of Amazon at this point!


I know the feeling x_x;


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His only lumps are his swim bladder and his bloated belly. I don't think I could handle lumps anywhere else. His stomach was a smooth, round bloat before, but now it's not so smooth.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Hmm, definitely keep an eye on the stomach then. If he starts to get worse at any given time, you should immediately start on baths again.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The methylene blue should be delivered sometime today. Hopefully it will be the magic kick in the baths he needs to get better. If it doesn't have any affect on him with another week or so of baths I'll be forced to decided whether I want to let him die naturally or use the clove oil route


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I agree with that. I'll send you well wishes, I truly hope he pulls through soon.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The little s**t has been through too much to die without a fight. He once got caught in a decoration and tore off all his fins and scales. I poked him and pushed him around, forcing him to move, every time he started going belly up. Not even two weeks later, when he was finally stable, I had to move and put the poor thing in a cup for like 4 hours. He's a very strong, sturdy fish. If any fish is going to live through whatever it is that he has, it's him.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

XD he sounds like he's been a handful. That's good c:, the fact that he's still stable and eating are good signs too and even if this is a tumor, there are ways to make his life more comfortable and he still has a chance of living for quite a while with it and if he doesn't seem in pain (appearing lackluster, not eating, and not showing interest in anything like when you come up to the tank are all signs I would look for) that's always an option.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He still has the will to live. I'm 90% sure he's only still alive because of his love of food. It doesn't mater what it is, he will eat it and he will beg for more. If I come in the room he gets up and swims around, once again begging for food. I'm pretty sure he'll never stop eating


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

What an ordeal! That ornament incident says that you are just as unwilling to give up as he is. My thoughts are with you both.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I got the methylene blue! The directions say for dips to add 5 teaspoons per 3 gallons of water and place the fish in it for no more than 10 seconds. Well that's not happening. For regular treatment it's 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons or 10 drops per gallon. How does 10 drops for a half gallon bath sound?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The MB in the bath is going pretty rough, but no worse than his very first bath of the med combo. He's just laying in the corner. If memory serves he should perk up in the last 10 minutes of the bath. 
Fun discovery: planaria! The store I got my Pygmy cories, shrimp, and a plant from had a good number of planaria. I thought I was careful and through, but unsurprisingly some made it in the tank and now I have around ten of the little guys. Yes, I am positive they're planaria (I'm a zoology major). With all the eggs the bladder snails and nerite lay the little things could feast for years. 
I was right! Ten minutes of the bath to go and he's up out of the corner, glaring at me.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Ok so I've been reading random stuff on the website to get my mind off of a paper I just finished writing (the topic was basically modern day dystopia. I mentioned a lot of animal abuse, which always makes me extremely sad) and I stumbled upon "A Giant Betta Journal," which has a crazy number of views, so I read the fist few pages. Logisticsguy had multiple fish die of dropsy-like symptoms within a short time. A necropsy of the last betta to die revealed roundworms! He had done epsom salt and kanaplex treatment, which killed some of the worms but they remained inside the fish. His worms may have come from rotted bloodworms. 
What do you guys think? Could this be an explanation for Spitfire's (have I ever actually mentioned his name? I feel like I haven't) illness? I'm not sure where the worms could have come from. Maybe from the cories or shrimp? They all seemed healthy, but I did recently notice one of the cories has disappeared. It's super rare to be able to see them all, and there was always at least one that didn't want to hang with the others, so seeing the full shoal only happened a few times. I never found a body though. I suppose it's possible I sucked it up while cleaning the tank and didn't notice, although I do pay very close attention to what's going up the hose because I'm terrified of sucking up a live cory. They're just so tiny! Could he have eaten the body? Or at least part of it? The chunk of driftwood I have has a couple super tiny holes that can go through it, that the smallest of the corys could have fit in. Maybe he died in there? I need to find something to stick through it and find out. First I should probably hunt down all the living cories and put them in a jar for a head count. 
Anyways, I read that journal and got a bit excited. It's just do frustrating not knowing for sure what's wrong with him!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

sabrinah said:


> It's just do frustrating not knowing for sure what's wrong with him!


I hear you!

Planaria, that's odd, general cure should have taken care of them.

How is your ammonia in the main tank? If there is a dead fish it should spike. So I am thinking if you see ammonia then look for the body otherwise assume that it got eaten.

I do think it's suspicious that he is eating like a piggy yet remaining skinny. But you've been feeding him anti-parasite meds and not seen him pass any worms.

From what I've read, bacterial dropsy or organ failure result in fluid retention, which you can tell by the color of his belly. I don't know if that's accurate, but what I read is a grey or yellow-ish belly is a tell-tale sign.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Planaria are damn near invincible. That and their adorable little eye spots are why they have always been one of my favorites to study. I haven't tested the main tank recently. I've been so preoccupied with making him better that I've totally slacked off on the rest. Oops. His belly is most definitely gray


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Ammonia in the main tank is 0.25. Not surprising considering that's what the tap water is and some of the bladder snails are finally dying off. I'll definitely check for a tiny fishy body in the driftwood when I do a water change on that tank this weekend, and I'll pull out and count the existing corys


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Sabrinah, I found this thread... it's about pond goldfish, but still... I thought it was encouraging. Everything else out there on dropsy is just so glum, I had to share this with you.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1564302/my-fish-is-sick-treating-for-dropsy


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

It is much more encouraging than most sites. That goldfish seemed to end up not having dropsy, but rather a bacterial infection and constipation. I highly doubt my betta has constipation because I've always been good at giving him daphnia regularly. A bacterial infection could be possible. He was stressed for a while when I added in the pygmy cories, which would make him more susceptible to getting sick. At least the goldfish recovered, so maybe there's still a chance for my boy. I don't think I would want to put him back in the main tank for a while though, even if he isn't contagious. All the epsom salt, general cure, and having to leave for a week really screwed up my tank. I have a bunch of plants still melting, hair algae has appeared on my filter and what's left of my vals, and there's algae on the walls of the tank. None of this was a problem before that whole event. My tank truly looks awful. I did test the water about an hour ago in the main tank and these were the results:
Ammonia: 0.25 (the tap water has at least 0.25 in it at all times)
Ph: 7.6
Nitrite: 0 ppm 
Nitrate: 20 ppm
Gh: 400 ppm
Kh: close to 200 ppm


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh man, your tank! Something must have also happened to your cycle. My tap water has ammonia(um?) in it as well, but in a cycled tank it gets eaten up.

How is he doing?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Yea my cycle has some issues at the moment and I'm not quite sure what to do about it. I know I had to have had a massive ammonia spike during the week I was gone because there was HUGE amounts of food at the bottom of the tank. It was awful. And half my plants were mush. 

I wish energy and physical health would coincide. He's bouncing off the walls but looks awful. All these baths have clearly helped him feel better, but they aren't making him look better.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Well, from being a mom I can tell you that you know when your kid is really sick by their energy level. They can look awful (imagine virus-triggered hives), but as long as they are active you know they are ok (ish). 

Keep him clean, keep him warm, give him good things to eat. I believe you can continue meth blue and epsom salt baths for a while after the meds have stopped. Hang in there.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He's loving life because he's getting way more frozen food than he used to. I keep telling myself I'm done trying new treatments because I've spent nearly $100 on him in the last month, but now I'm about ready to go buy probiotics because they're apparently great for fish and speed up recovery. I doubt I would even need garlic to get him to eat it. My other fish on the other hand may need persuasion. Do you think it would it be ok to use actual garlic juice, or only garlic guard?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Today will be the eighth bath. Everything in it is double dosed (methylene blue, Kanaplex, Furan 2, Epsom salt) and have so far been for half an hour each. I think for these final three I'll do it for an hour. After that I'll do the mb and Epsom salt baths for a few more days, then see how he does with no more treatment.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I was researching garlic not too long ago. I read a study according to which apparently it's the oil in the garlic that has most of the benefits. Regular raw garlic juice works too but not nearly as well according to the study. I've seen on this forum people use freshly squeezed garlic juice all the time, but I also read that it can irritate the digestive system. I haven't tried it, so don't know. There is also apparently a human garlic oil supplement you can get at the drug store, it's a capsule. I haven't actually tried any of this, just done some research.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I certainly wouldn't want to risk irritating his digestive tract in his current state. I'm tempted to try the human capsule if I do end up buying probiotics. Maybe I ought to just buy better betta pellets to start with. He's already eating Onega One betta buffet which I've heard is one of the better ones, but I doubt it's the best


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I got north fin. It's excellent!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'll have to look into it. I know new life spectrum is considered one of the best but it's impossible to find the betta pellets around here.

I just tested the main tank again. Ammonia is at zero


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Whew, sorry, had to poof to study for a quiz and then a math test that I thought was today but is apparently NEXT Friday?? Well, ok then.



sabrinah said:


> I wish energy and physical health would coincide. He's bouncing off the walls but looks awful. All these baths have clearly helped him feel better, but they aren't making him look better.


He looks like he's less bloated?? Is that just me and my crappy eyesight or is he actually less bloated? 



sabrinah said:


> He's loving life because he's getting way more frozen food than he used to. I keep telling myself I'm done trying new treatments because I've spent nearly $100 on him in the last month, but now I'm about ready to go buy probiotics because they're apparently great for fish and speed up recovery. I doubt I would even need garlic to get him to eat it. My other fish on the other hand may need persuasion. Do you think it would it be ok to use actual garlic juice, or only garlic guard?


I've used both garlic guard and pure crushed garlic juice before. I used the latter for a week and a half when I took in my boy who came with internal parasites. It's a recommended anti-parasitic and has other benefits too. 



olgamc said:


> I've seen on this forum people use freshly squeezed garlic juice all the time, but I also read that it can irritate the digestive system.


I don't think I've ever heard it can upset the digestive tract though?? Do you remember where you saw that? I've known a number of people who have recommended recipes for homemade frozen foods with garlic in it and I occasionally incorporate garlic into their feeding schedule regularly too so I definitely would be interested in that. 



sabrinah said:


> Today will be the eighth bath. Everything in it is double dosed (methylene blue, Kanaplex, Furan 2, Epsom salt) and have so far been for half an hour each. I think for these final three I'll do it for an hour. After that I'll do the mb and Epsom salt baths for a few more days, then see how he does with no more treatment.


You can also do two baths a day if that works into your personal schedule. One in the am and the second in the pm. If these baths are working, I recommend keeping at it for an extra day or two. The benefits of continuing treatment if he is showing improvement outweigh the risks at this stage in my opinion. Especially if he's still eating and not listless. 
His underbelly is a little pale which can be a physical symptom of stress. I've found that covering the container and keeping the fish in the dark during the baths are helpful to keep them calmer.

I would be wary of using probiotics formulated for humans, the doses are different but if you want to incorporate probiotics, spirulina is fantastic. I use Hikari's frozen food brands and they have a spirulina brine shrimp formula. From what I remember, spirulina contains a variety of B complex (up to B-10 or 9) vitamins as well as vitamin K and E and a number of different key amino acids. 

I also like Northfin. I have both Northfin and New Life Spectrum and I like NorthFin's ingredient list more.

Also, another thing that I thought of while reading the new posts is that I switched all my frozen foods to Hikari about 2 yrs back because there were a number of cases of people having issues with San Francisco Bay's brand of frozen foods. Hikari apparantly uses a superior sterilization technique for freezing which makes their brand cleaner (I cannot for the life of me remember the details though). This could also be a cause for concern depending on the brand you use.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

My bloodworms are San Francisco Bay brand. It's all my area carried when I got them, but I think there's a wider variety now. When I can I'll see if I can find the spirulina. 

He's not exactly less bloated, it's just more on one side than the other. It's not possible to do two baths a day every day, but I definitely can this weekend


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh and the baths are done in the dark.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I can't find the study about oil vs juice, but here is a nice article about using garlic in general:
http://allnaturalpetcare.com/blog/2...-fights-fish-flukes-diy-garlic-extract-guide/

From it:


> Caution: Using too much garlic may irritate mucus membranes. Daily, extended use may cause anemia due to iron-binding.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm not sure if it's still an issue with the brand since I haven't had a reason to look into it anymore, but it was a concern a while back in any case. 

If it's more on one side than the other then I agree with you, it's unlikely to be constipation.

Edit:


olgamc said:


> I can't find the study about oil vs juice, but here is a nice article about using garlic in general:
> http://allnaturalpetcare.com/blog/2...-fights-fish-flukes-diy-garlic-extract-guide/


Ooh, thank you! I'll definitely find time to go over that sometime this weekend~


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

It doesn't sound like diluted garlic a couple times a week would be a problem. I may look in to the seaweed.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Found it! http://nippyfish.net/2011/05/17/treating-tropical-fish-with-garlic/


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

That was definitely an interesting read. I may try a bit from a fresh clove


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

San Francisco bloodworms. Not a fan myself. MB is great I use it more diluted than instructions. Paraguard bath might help. Good luck.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I decided to try and hunt down Hikari frozen foods today. The Petco and Petsmart around here both only care the San Francisco brand, so I ended up going to Neptune Aquatics which is quite a bit out of the way. That place truly is lovely. I got the bloodworms and the spirulina brine shrimp. I know the fish foods with probiotics in them are fairly sucky, but I decided to give it a try anyway since it was cheap and got Cobalt Aquatics tropical pellets with probiotics. They're massive so they'll definitely need to be broken up. 
From Petco I got NLS all purpose formula. It is seriously absolutely impossible to find the betta pellets anywhere around here. The NLS pellets are pretty huge compared to the Omega One so they're definitely going to have to be soaked and broken. I'll be using the Omega One to soak in garlic since they seem to absorb more. Last night I smashed some garlic, mixed some dechlorinated water in it, and soaked some pellets in it. They ate it no problem! 
I have NLS and the cobalt pellets soaking right now so hopefully they'll eat them. If not it's going to the cories.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

They ate everything but the cobalt pellets are HORRIBLY messy


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Good job. Hey could you let me know what species or types of probiotics cobalt is using in their probiotic fish food. hopefully its listed on the container. Sorry very curious lol


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Here's the back of the package


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Thank you!


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> I decided to try and hunt down Hikari frozen foods today. The Petco and Petsmart around here both only care the San Francisco brand, so I ended up going to Neptune Aquatics which is quite a bit out of the way. That place truly is lovely.


Same here, I have to travel 45 minutes to an hour to reach the only fish store that carries Hikari ;;.
It's good that he's eating everything well! lol, I find that my Panda cories absolutely refuse to eat NLS. They detest it.



logisticsguy said:


> Good job. Hey could you let me know what species or types of probiotics cobalt is using in their probiotic fish food. hopefully its listed on the container. Sorry very curious lol


I second that. If it's not too much trouble I'd like to know too.

Edit: Oops, slow to post, thank you for taking the picture ^^!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

My cories ate the Cobalt but refused to touch the NLS. Apparently they don't want a diet upgrade. 

Is the probiotics in the Cobalt decent stuff? If you want I can post size comparisons of the pellets. 

The shape of my betta's abdomen has changed a bit. It's still swollen, but it's not really a rounded swell anymore. It's becoming more triangular. The bottom is sticking quite far from the sides, so much so that I'm actually afraid he's going to explode. I wish he would cooperate and let me take a decent picture so you can see what I mean


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Yeah, cories are massively picky.. 

I haven't had a chance to look the ingredients over yet but I'll check the ingredients later tonight.

He his behavior changed otherwise?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His behavior is still the same. He's still very active and eating whatever I give him. I think his color is starting to improve a bit. Today he decided I'm not allowed to take pictures of the side I usually do, so these are all of his more bloated side, which he usually doesn't let me take pictures of.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm not as well versed in fish nutrition as I'd like to be so I'm cross-referencing the ingredients with notes I have jotted down from when I used to make my own food and it seems like they have a couple of really good choices but, since there's much less regulation on fish foods than people foods, you can always expect some problem areas. 

Key vitamins in aquaculture seem to be Vitamins A, D3, E, K , B1 (Thiamine), B2 (Riboflavin), B3 (Niacin), B5 (The eggs would have them), B6 (Pyridoxine), B12, C, H (Biotin), B9 (Folic acid), and B9 (Inositol). Vit A is especially useful for stressed fish but the use of retinyl acetate raises some red flags as shown here:
https://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/705543/RETINYL_ACETATE_(VITAMIN_A_ACETATE)/
...when used topically. As well as googling that led to a page claiming it's cold water soluble so I find the bioavailability (amount that is actually absorbed/utilized) of it is questionable in tropical fish but the link did not mention temperatures or percent of solubility in varying degrees.

Phosphorous is a key mineral and it's within a good percentage, I believe the sweet spot is 1-1.5%. 
Calcium pantothenate and carbonate I've found in a number of aquaculture nutritional analysis/diets:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/q3567e/q3567e05.htm
Though I'm not well versed in it's effects.

No red flags on Thiamin mononitrate (I thought there would be so I checked it out) based on this study:
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/scientific_output/files/main_documents/2411.pdf

Choline Chloride is a beneficial additive as it's been shown to improve osmoregulation and healthy growth in some aquaculture experiments.

But then again all this gets more complicated when you also have the fact that synthetic is subpar to naturally derived from the food source ^^'..
http://www.doctorsresearch.com/articles4.html
So it's hard to tell how much is being utilized by the fish to begin with.

Salmon is a very fatty fish and you want to limit fats to <8% and the food has 10+%. Not too bad for a supplement.

I'm not happy with their V C supplement. It's something I've tried to avoid in my own dog's food. 
I wish they had Citric acid though:
http://www.fspublishers.org/published_papers/31851_..pdf

I can find absolutely nothing beneficial on the "Dried Bacillus Licheniformis Fermentation Product". B. licheniformis is a bacteria so I'm guessing, like spirulina, it's just a probiotic addition but exactly what it's benefits are in fish feed escape me. I found a couple of disconcerting issues with it, but nothing that had any backing so I doubt the authenticity. 

I love how they add in "Natural Color" as the coloring ingredient though... What's wrong with people :frustrated:...

Regarding the pictures you posted... I don't think it's just me because I'm on my pc now which has a good image but he looks relatively less bloated than before. If you compare with the image on page 12, he looks less swollen. Compare how his fins are sitting on both images, that's where I see the biggest difference. It might be that the unevenness you're seeing is that he's deflating a bit and the side with the issue is being slower to recover.

Edit:
Vita C benefits are amazing, I wanted to share because I found this in my bookmarks->

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles...rowth-biological-performance-in-shrimps-fish/


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Thank you for going so in depth! So overall it sounds like it's a decent supplement. I really wish there was a website rating fish food. I use dogfoodadvisor to check any food I consider feeding my dog and only feed him 5 star food. There's also a couple websites that I use to check my cat's food and analyze the ingredients. All we need now is a fish site. 

I know he has to be somewhat better based on his energy level. I don't understand why one eye is still so messed up. It's both popping out and cloudy. And he doesn't seem to be putting any weight back on. I feed small frozen food (daphnia, spirulina brine shrimp) by picking up a defrosted clump with the tip of a shish kabob stick and placing it directly in front of him so he eats it before it has the chance to spread everywhere. He doesn't even let me get the stick in the water anymore. He jumps up and grabs the food off it himself. Clearly he's ravenous. I wish he wasn't still so damn skinny.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> I really wish there was a website rating fish food. I use dogfoodadvisor to check any food I consider feeding my dog and only feed him 5 star food. There's also a couple websites that I use to check my cat's food and analyze the ingredients. All we need now is a fish site.


Oh, duh! I knew there was something I was forgetting XD. There's this site:
http://www.oscarfish.com/fish-food-analysis.html
^Fantastic resource and where I started my research a few years ago~

Oooh, dogfoodavisor, never heard of it before! Sadly, my dog is the pickiest animal I've ever met, worse than my cories, and for a while all he would eat was Beneful (what he was being fed on previously). We've managed to wean him off it to the Blue Wilderness grain free foods since he has food sensitivities (he's also 15 so his stomach's not been in tip top form for a while now) but we have to add in meat, wet food, carrots, and/or salsa to his dry food at every feeding to get him to eat. 

Hmm, I'm not sure why he's skinny either, how many times are you feeding protein rich foods (NLS, Cobalt, bloodworms) a week? If it is parasites, the epsom salt and paragard should be proving effective. 
lol, and I hear you. I feed frozen foods 7 times a week here and I use pipettes to drop them but both my boys will grab the pipette and shake their heads like a dog in the tug-of-war battle of its life.

Edit: And you're welcome c:, I'm more than happy to help where I can.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The website exists! You have no idea how happy that makes me. 

There's a wet food that's great for pets with stomach problems but it's expensive af. My aunt feeds it to her cat with horrible IBD and kidney issues. It's called Weruva. A 5.5 oz can of food is $3. I think a larger can of dog food is $6. I understand the pickiness. My dog will eat absolutely anything, but my 12 year old cat is stubborn. It took months to get her to eat a decent wet food (when I lived at home my parents got the cheapest dry food available for pets. It's awful once you learn about pet foods) and she still demands that it be mixed with a small amount of dry. 

I feed him 2x a day, every day. It's always been 3 pellets in the morning and 3 at night (Omega One, but now the new foods will be mixed in a rotation) with frozen bloodworms replacing the pellets at least 4 meals a week, and frozen daphnia once or twice. I'm seriously considering feeding him lunch on the days I can

Edit: I had switched out the paraguard for methylene blue in the baths, which actually does seem to be helping more. Once I stop with the baths in a couple days I may give him a break for a few days and then do paraguard baths if there's no additional improvement.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

The probiotics in cobalt are decent. however, imho adding your own top notch probiotic to Hikari bloodworms or Hikari spirulina brine shimp is a better option and cheaper in long run as well. I admire your efforts fixing up your fish.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Well I did buy him so it's my responsibility to take care of him to the very best of my ability. If I can find decent probiotics I can afford at this point, I'll probably end up getting them. If not he'll just have to make due with the cobalt


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> There's a wet food that's great for pets with stomach problems but it's expensive af. My aunt feeds it to her cat with horrible IBD and kidney issues. It's called Weruva. A 5.5 oz can of food is $3. I think a larger can of dog food is $6. I understand the pickiness.


Ooh, I'll have to try that. I'm not too worried about price given that what we're feeding him now is already expensive enough -_-. If he could eat just wet foods that would be great but he needs the dry food to prevent him getting a case of the runs ^^'.

If you do go the use your own probiotic blend, I know L. rhamnosus (sp?) was used in mice and helped with parasites.

Edit: Also, how is he doing?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

100% pure pumpkin is also great for tummy troubles. I always keep some cans on hand as well as homemade pumpkin treats in the freezer just in case. 

He's doing about he same. No change at all. I think today will be the last day of baths. I may start ParaGuard baths after giving him a while to recover


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Ooh, did not know that pumpkin was safe. I always remembered me never feeding it to the dogs when I was younger and just assumed it was taboo... Though it was probably more a case of my hungry gut not wanting to share food I liked haha..

I'd do the same. Paragard is good if this isn't a bacterial infection and given the strength of the treatment you're currently using, it's either a highly resistant strain or not bacterial. This is really stumping me :hmm:...


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The pumpkin has to be pure. And in too high of amounts over a long period of time it can cause problems. My dog is 40 lbs, and when he's having issues I give him two heaping tablespoons, one in the morning and one at night. 

I have zero clue what's up with this fish. Clearly something's wrong, but it seems pretty damn incurable. He's so thin you can see the outline of his swim bladder all the way down both sides of his body. I wish I knew someone that could necropsy him if he dies


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I'll introduce it when he has issues only then. We've been trying to switch up his diet and we do use sweet potatoes if he doesn't agree with something but he gets bored of sweet potatoes easily. Hehe, he's tiny, he's only 22 lbs.

I hope that doesn't happen but if you have the stomach for it, using gloves and a sharp tool like a scalpel or a sharp paper/wood carver blade like you get at arts and crafts store you can cut him along the lateral line or, if you're afraid of not being steady enough, you can cut him closer to the anterior (where the ventral fins are) of his body. You can usually see clues even without the use of a microscope or bacterial stain tests.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I most definitely do not have the stomach for it. And I would probably be bawling my eyes out and completely unable to see what I'm doing. I may see what my old zoology profs schedule is this semester and ask if he would be willing to do it if my betta dies when I'm able to get him there


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I understand. I've done those things many times before but when it comes to my own pets... I just want it to not be real. The first time I tried on a goldie I owned, I was so upset (I'd had the fish for close to 5 years and he'd been totally fine and was still young, maybe 7-8 years old) that I cried and stabbed my arm with the scalpel and had to go to the doctor's for prohylactic treatment ;;... I refuse to do necropsy on fish I've grown attached to now too.

If he's willing to do that, be sure to ask for ccadavar preservative solution.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

That's totally something I would do! Did you need stitches? 

He's a word that rhymes with "tick" so the chances of him being willing to do it are slim to none. It doesn't help that he isn't very fond of me. We had to do this massive journal thing (huge notebook with lab sketches, diagrams, etc) and we were always allowed a page to write about anything animal related we wanted. I always chose to rant about the condition of the goldfish and turtle tanks, how horridly filthy the filters were (so dirty you couldn't see the biomax in them unless you looked really fricken hard), how little time the people spent caring for the tanks, and how much I despise dissections. He really didn't like me. But I just might try anyway.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Does paraguard work for internal too?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

It doesn't appear to be for internal parasites actually. It only says external. At this point I don't really have any more options, and I certainly can't afford to buy anymore medication since I just upgraded all the food.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

This whole no baths thing? No bueno. He's more bloated and back to being weighed down by his bloat. He'll be at the top of the tank and slowly sink until his stomach and face are flat against the bottom of the tank, and he'll just sit there looking miserable. I got a picture of his current sleeping position. Since I'm on my phone it'll probably post the picture sideways. For reference, the pink thing by his head is a rock in the corner of the tank to weigh it down. I'll also post another picture of him that I got earlier, but it'll have to be another post since it will only let me post one picture at a time.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Notice how his stomach is distended again


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

sabrinah said:


> That's totally something I would do! Did you need stitches?
> 
> He's a word that rhymes with "tick" so the chances of him being willing to do it are slim to none. It doesn't help that he isn't very fond of me. We had to do this massive journal thing (huge notebook with lab sketches, diagrams, etc) and we were always allowed a page to write about anything animal related we wanted. I always chose to rant about the condition of the goldfish and turtle tanks, how horridly filthy the filters were (so dirty you couldn't see the biomax in them unless you looked really fricken hard), how little time the people spent caring for the tanks, and how much I despise dissections. He really didn't like me. But I just might try anyway.


Thankfully the only time I ever needed stitches was when I was too little to remember and I apparently fell while running with no obstacles to trip me and hit my head on the coffee table. And I understand your sentiments perfectly. We have a few tanks in my school and the staff member that takes care of them is fantastic but the old BIO class experiments I saw? God, I don't know how those fish survived, even if they are hardy species :/.

If he's no longer stable, it's better to restart with baths. What have you seen the best results with?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The turtle tanks are much worse than the goldfish tanks. I mean they're truly disgusting. The crayfish tank is so dark and dirty you can't see that's there's anything in there. Pretty sure they don't mind much though. 

I had the best results with the Kanaplex, MB, Furan 2, Epsom salt combo baths. I may try just doing strong Epsom salt baths. I really don't know what's wrong with my fish!


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Oh thankfully we have no turtles or goldfish or Bettas.

Hrmm, both of those combined treat a range of both + and - bacteria... If you can get your hands on them; neomycin and metronidazole are effective for cases of bloating if you use it as a food soak. Kanaplex I know for a fact that it's not light on the kidneys and neomycin can affect kidneys too though not as easily I believe so you'll have to weigh the risks and benefits.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I rrrreeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy shouldn't be spending more money. It's been over $100 trying to make him healthy. I'll probably try the ParaGuard and ES baths, maybe give the general cure another go or feed it to him. It sucks not knowing how to treat him because I don't know what's wrong with him! No worms, no growths, no fuzzy white stuff, no weird poop. And the medications have covered so much! Kanaplex: Fungal and bacterial, dropsy, popeye, fin/tail rot, septicemia. Furan-2: bacterial diseases and infections, open red sores, gill disease, fin and tail rot, hemorrhagic septicemia, eye cloud, body slime. Methylene Blue: General disease prevention, superficial fungal infections, some external protozoans. General Cure: Parasitic diseases, gill and skin flukes, swollen abdomen, wasting disease, hole in the head. 

Yep definitely giving general cure another go. Maybe double dosed? Can you do double doses of general cure? Maybe a regular does in his qt tank (water still changed every day, so hopefully that doesn't screw stuff up) and a double dose bath? And being fed food soaked in it. I don't know. I'm out of ideas.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Take a look at this: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#change_med

Basically what he is saying is that you can often determine the course of action based not on the diagnosis but on what medications you've already tried. In your case, given financial constraints, I would research the individual ingredients of your meds to try and establish whether it's a gram negative/positive, aerobic/anaerobic bacteria and then repeat with a cocktail from what you have on hand that addresses that. I'd use methylene blue regardless, as it seemed to have helped.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> Take a look at this: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#change_med
> 
> Basically what he is saying is that you can often determine the course of action based not on the diagnosis but on what medications you've already tried. In your case, given financial constraints, I would research the individual ingredients of your meds to try and establish whether it's a gram negative/positive, aerobic/anaerobic bacteria and then repeat with a cocktail from what you have on hand that addresses that. I'd use methylene blue regardless, as it seemed to have helped.


+1. It's why I asked which medication you'd seen the best results with. Kana+Furan in combination treat a broad variety of gram negative and to a lesser extent a broad variety of positive. Kana is mostly useful for aerobic and I believe Furan is too. However, both of these make a really powerful treatment when used together. This last point combined with the fact that he's only slightly improved and most of that improvement, as I recall, was after MB was added to the mix, he either has an antibiotic resistant strain or it's not reacting to the antibiotics. 



sabrinah said:


> I rrrreeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy shouldn't be spending more money. It's been over $100 trying to make him healthy. I'll probably try the ParaGuard and ES baths, maybe give the general cure another go or feed it to him...
> Yep definitely giving general cure another go. Maybe double dosed? Can you do double doses of general cure? Maybe a regular does in his qt tank (water still changed every day, so hopefully that doesn't screw stuff up) and a double dose bath? And being fed food soaked in it. I don't know. I'm out of ideas.


If General Cure and Paraguard didn't show any effects the first time around, I wouldn't use them again. However, I'm not sure for how long you used Paraguard for. Personally, what I know of the two.. Paraguard has malachite green which is likely to be more beneficial in this case than General Cure. 

On the other hand I believe General Cure has metro in it..? I'll google that in a second and edit so my page doesn't refresh but if it does, you can use that on its own as an alternative food soak to what I mentioned before. (don't use paraguard in the food though, I'm not sure if it's dangerous but I know you shouldn't use malachite green internally.)

Edit:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16807
^It does~


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Also according to that same website, the majority of dropsy is caused by gram negative anaerobic. MB increases oxygen in blood, so would it actually work for anaerobic bacteria rather than just being "good for fish"?

Maybe you should just do kanaplex + furan2 + MB + epsom again. The site says to try up to 3 treatments, so you can do it again. I know it's hard on kidneys, but what choice do you have? At least he was responding to it. Can you manage 2 baths a day?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

ParaGuard only got tried for like 2 baths because everything insisted I should be using MB. It didn't really get a fair try. 

I can do two baths on most days. There are two days a week that it would be difficult. Another round of baths it is! 2x a day for 10 days I guess 

He started breathing heavily yesterday too. It's definitely a new symptom


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Do you think it would be OK to premix the baths in a sealed one gallon jug? That way on the mornings I'm tight for time I can just set the bath in the tank to get to temperature for 45 minutes or ao before putting him in. It would definitely save on time. Or I supposed I could just premix the drys in a little bowl or something and cover it to minimize the amount of pet hair that gets in it


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

For the sake of trying something I did mix up a Furan2/Kanaplex/ES/ParaGuard bath. A bit higher dose of ES than before though. He's handling it much better than the baths with the MB. It doesn't seem as hard on him. He did quickly swell up to larger than he was before I put him in though, which is fricken weird. Is there a reason for the bath to blow him up like a balloon? Hopefully once he's out of the bath and back in his qt tank he'll deflate


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Breathing heavy, hmm, I wonder if it's because he is used to the MB. MB increases oxygen content in blood, so it's like an oxygen mask. Do you have an aerator that you can put into his hospital?

He inflated from a bath? Wow, that would freak me out. Are you sure you used epsom salt not aq salt? Is he ok? Dalloway?


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh, and everywhere I read they always say to mix the bath fresh just before. Some meds are only active for 24 hours, so the fresher the bath the better.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He hasn't had a bath in MB since Tuesday I believe it was, so shouldn't he have started breathing heavier sooner? And I don't have an aerator. I'm absolutely positive I used Epsom salt. All his bath supplies are together. He seems to be ok, just puffy. I really wish there was a fish vet nearby, but the nearest one is in Soquel. They specialize in koi and the drive alone would probably kill him


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I assumed so about the baths, which is why I've been mixing them fresh the entire time. It would just have made it easier certain mornings if they could be premixed. Darn.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I hear you, and I really admire how much you are doing to save your little guy!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Would it be possible to get an aerator and everything it needs for super cheap?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm an animal lover. All animals are family to me. I won't even squish a snail. There was a time when I had a container of nearly 100 baby pond snails and their mother (long story short, my mom's sorta ex boyfriend brought the snail home from fishing because he was drunk and thought it was a massive prehistoric snail shell (3 inches), and he put it in his tank thinking it was full of dirt. Nope. Snail was alive. He was going to kill it but I convinced him to let me keep it in the bird bath for a few months, then I put it in my tank. She popped out babies like nobody's business). I researched until I found a lake with pond snails naturally occurring I could release them all in. I also used to have a bladder snail problem, but it turns out that Pygmy cories are wonderful little snail hunters.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I doubt it, don't get one if you don't already have one. I would keep doing MB and wean him off of it slowly.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Pygmy cories eh? Are they any good at algae?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Nope they're little carnivores. My nerite has been my best defense against algae, but even he's outmatched with the disaster that is my tank. Hair algae and diatoms everywhere! 

If it's the MB causing the gasping he really should have started right after I stopped the baths, not 5 days later


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, I got snails and shrimp, but they can't keep up at the moment. I am thinking of getting siamese algae eater.

Oh, it's been that long has it? Sorry, yes you are right. Ok, Dalloway?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The sudden bloat has gone down a bit. There's no poop in the tank or anything so that wasn't a cause for it. He's acting fine otherwise. The heavy breathing has stopped.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

So what was the sequence of events exactly? Did the heavy breathing start before or after bath? He swelled up in the bath, and then both symptoms improved after he was back to his hospital?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Heavy breathing, then bath. Swelled up in the bath. Breathing in the bath is always shallow. After an hour or two back in the hospital tank swelling lessened and breathing was normal.


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Did it look like the bath helped with the breathing then? I am wondering if the swelling was related to breathing rather than triggered by bath. What are you going to do? This must be very frustrating for you.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I have zero clue what I'm going to do. That's pretty much how life in general is going at the moment. Just wing it I guess and hope there's no casualties? After how my day has gone so far I was sure I would come home to a dead betta, but alas he is still kicking. He got a bath this morning in Kanaplex/Furan2/ES/ParaGuard. I couldn't say if it made him balloon again because I didn't have time to watch him while I was getting ready. I have to say the bath did make his eye pop out more than usual. Or maybe it was just the difficultly getting him out of the net back in to his hospital tank that made it pop more. It was awful and I thought it was going to completely come out of his head. Now, however, his eye looks much better. It's still sticking out, but not as much as it has been for the last month. That's a result I didn't get using the MB. I really hope I didn't just jinx myself.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh almost forgot! I have a picture of his eye right after the bath. It's blurry because my hands were shaking, but you can see how much white was showing, even looking at the opposite side of his head!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I am speechless. You guys are both such fighters.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He's the one doing all the hard work! I'm just funding it! 

I'm horribly conflicted! On one hand, this bath combination makes him incredibly bloated, but it does go down throughout the day. Of course this is a bit worrying. On the other hand, there's so much improvement with his eye! I took him out of his bath tonight and his eye was COMPLETELY NORMAL! It will probably start popping back out a bit, but this is progress!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

So paraguard is obviously helping, with external symptoms anyway. So what are your options? 
- quit all the other meds and just keep paraguard
- change the cocktail for the bath
- use some meds in bath and some in tank
Anything else?

When I am really confused I like to write down my options and think through pros and cons. Helps me stay objective and reasonable, especially if I am emotional.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Oh, my. I just read through the entire thread. I'm so sorry no one has been able to help you! To me this sounds like a whole mixture of other things. One note-- Don't put salt in with the Cories. Whenever you can, go out and buy him a small 2.5 gallon tank with a heater. Lower the water level to ~1-2 inches. Then continue dosing meds. Read through the med ingredient list. If one is similar to the other, don't use it. Overdose.

This is really confusing! I'mma sleep on this, and I'll se what I can come up with in the morning. Im also sorta new here -- I got my first betta last September. Ive dealt with every diasease to the moon and back, except for one... Fish TB. I know next to nothing, but I know it can be fatal and humans ca nget it. I'll have to do more research on it, to see sypmtoms and stuff....

See you tomorrow, guys. Good luck!

ET: Excuse the spelling. It's 3AM here. >.<


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I am so sorry you had to read through the entire thread, but I greatly appreciate it! There is absolutely no way I can manage another tank and an adjustable heater right now, which is why he's been floating in a half gallon hospital tank for over a month. The cories haven't had to endure any of this nightmare after the first failed attempt with General Cure and ES. I actually saw the largest cory flashing today so I hope they don't come down with anything! I can't handle that many sick fish along with the disaster that is this semester. 

His eye is still better than it has been for the last month, but it's not entirely back where it should be. The bloating isn't improving in the least! And he's still incredibly skinny. There is one odd thing though. While he still looks incredibly bloated, he doesn't seem to be weighed down by it quite as much. I'm not sure why that is.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Have you treated for internal parasites? (Sorry if you have, still pretty tired.)


And it's fine about the thread, I actually found it pretty interesting. A new experience for me!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I treated for them with general cure. It was the first thing I tried and it had no effect whatsoever. I'm tempted to try it again just because I don't know what else to do at this point


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Ah. There's a brand called Jungle -- It has a parasite treatment. I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but apparently it works really well.

Edit:


> Usually what I've come across when in my experience with IPs is the fish is bloated, less active, has a loss of appetite, and has abnormal poo. While all these symptoms are definitely important to consider when discussing internal parasites, the most important one is abnormal poop, since the other symptoms can depend on the phase/progression of the infestation. I would treat the fish with a medication containing the ingredient praziquantel. I have had some success with Jungle Parasite Clear tabs. Within a few days of treatment you should see the fish begin to pass the worms (lots of poo) and then within the week they should perk up and start wanting to eat again. If the fish is still sick after over a week, I would consider that it might be a different problem you're up against.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The fact that he's eating fine, active, and has normal poop suggests he doesn't have parasites. I'm just at a loss as to what the problem really is


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Try treating for parasites anyway. We need to rule out everything.

How old is he?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'll try general cure again. Since I've already spent over $100 (probably approaching $150 at this point) on the meds, hospital tank, bath tank, food upgrades, etc. I reeeaaalllyyy shouldn't be spending more on new meds unless I absolutely have to. 

He's around 2ish I'm guessing. I've had him about a year and a half, and he has definitely grown since I've gotten him so he had to have been relatively young when I purchased him. I doubt this is an old age thing because it was relatively sudden. 

Unless I find another dying betta at Petco (brought home my second boy 2 or 3 months ago from there. He was not a planned purchase, but I'm glad I saved him) my next one will for sure be from a breeder, preferably one on this site. I want a healthy fish! 

Wait I just thought of something that's probably totally wrong and irrelevant. About a month after I got this betta, he got stuck in a decoration. I know one of the posts on this thread tell about that awful event. He was wedged in there extremely tight, and I had to bang the decoration on a rock to get him to pop out. Clearly he healed fine (minus the forever uneven fins that have been worsened by horrid hard water curling) because it's a year and a half later and he's still kicking, but do you think it's possible he suffered some kind of internal damage that's either acting up and causing this mess, or is preventing him from recovering?


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Sorry, finals week has been getting to me ;;!! I'll try to update myself now.



olgamc said:


> Also according to that same website, the majority of dropsy is caused by gram negative anaerobic. MB increases oxygen in blood, so would it actually work for anaerobic bacteria rather than just being "good for fish"?


Well, anaerobic bacteria suggests the bacteria do not require or may even die in the presence of oxygen so it would be helpful but MB also aids in improving either medication absorption or fish's immune response, one or the other I can't remember.



sabrinah said:


> Is there a reason for the bath to blow him up like a balloon? Hopefully once he's out of the bath and back in his qt tank he'll deflate


Very weird. Only thing I can think of is he had an adverse reaction to one of the medications and he swelled up in reaction.



olgamc said:


> Yeah, I got snails and shrimp, but they can't keep up at the moment. I am thinking of getting siamese algae eater.
> 
> Oh, it's been that long has it? Sorry, yes you are right. Ok, Dalloway?


I really love Amano shrimp for algae. I have medium light in my primarily crypt inhabited 29 gallon and they're doing all the algae cleaning work and more.

What am I confirming ^^;? 



ThatFishThough said:


> Then continue dosing meds. Read through the med ingredient list. If one is similar to the other, don't use it. Overdose.


I definitely agree on not reusing similar meds but at this point, we shouldn't be overdosing at all. He's been through far too many consecutive treatments and kidney overload at this point is a very real concern, particularly considering the long term use now of kanaplex.



sabrinah said:


> There is one odd thing though. While he still looks incredibly bloated, he doesn't seem to be weighed down by it quite as much. I'm not sure why that is.


It may be that the pressure is being lifted from his swim bladder. Which is odd, I'll have to think about this more.

Regarding parasites: Considering that this isn't a smooth, rounded belly bloat and it's protruding and favoring one side over the other, in my opinion it's much more likely for it to be an infection other than parasitic.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Yay Dalloway! We've missed you! I totally understand the finals stress. School is going so horribly right now that the urge to drop out and become a stripper is incredibly strong, but I can't dance worth anything so that job would be an epic failure. 

The ParaGuard doesn't seem to be helping anything but his eye, so I'll probably take that out of the baths and put MB back in. I've been worried about his kidneys because of all of these meds, so what do you think about taking the Kanaplex out? It can't hurt to try.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

*What the heck is this????*

So I've noticed my betta has had a slightly off coloring under his right pectoral. It's the side he doesn't let me get a good look at often, as well as the side that's the most bloated. When he took his bath today, I saw something that made me die a little inside (okay, it made me die a lot. May have lost consciousness for a second.). So after his bath, I put his hospital tank on my bookshelf and pestered him to no end until I got a sufficient number of pictures, although they are poor quality. 

What. The. F**K. Is. This. 

Please tell me this is not the distinctive outline of a CURLED UP WORM INSIDE MY FISH. It is a PERFECT SPIRAL ON THE SIDE WITH THE WORST BLOATING. Please tell me this is some distorted view of organs shoved to weird places because of the bloating. I know as a Zoology major I should be looking at fish anatomy and racking my brain, but I'm FREAKING OUT. This is why I decided not to become a vet. I can't handle sick or dying animals.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

*dies* oh my god, I've never heard or seen anything like this! What. The. Eve. F*ck! The pictures arent the best --- if you can, better quality pictures, please.

Cool, I have a Zoologist friend! Literally, I wouldn't be able to handle being a vet, either.

As for the... Worm? I legit have no freaking idea what it could be.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

To get those pictures I had to chase him around with a stick because he's very insistent on not showing that side. I'll see if I can borrow a camera to get better pictures tomorrow. All I have is my iPhone. 

I'm going to do everything in my power to hunt down my Zoology professor from last semester. Oh! I know someone taking his class this semester! If I can't track him down she'll definitely show him the pictures for me


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Well my betta may die of stress now, but I got pictures!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ew ew ew... I think we are all freaking out. You made us all freak out, fish! LOL

Sabrinah, you have a cat, right? Do you have any worm medicine that has levamisol? See here: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html#levamisol

EDIT: more info here: http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html#nematodes


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## AmandaM7542 (May 12, 2016)

*What's wrong with my baby girl*

I have a 20 gallon tank with 14 female guppies in it. It has a filter and heater (78°). And all of the water parameters are ok. My question is one of my girls has a white tube looking thing coming out of her butt. She is also keeping her top and bottom fins pinned against her. When she swims she does this shimmy thing kind of like when she's in labor but she hasn't had any babies. I attached a couple of pics I'm new at this and would appreciate your help so much. Thanks in advance.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I have a cat and a dog. I don't have any worm meds at the moment. I'll definitely check out those links when I'm done with classes for the day. 

I'm wondering if this could possibly be trichinosis? It's a round worm that forms cysts in the muscles. I can't remember if fish can get it or not. You get infected by consuming the flesh of the infected animal. 
One of my Pygmy cories did disappear after the first general cure/ES treatment, meaning he died and was eaten. If it is possible for fish to contract it, it's possibly all the pygmys are ill as well. I did see the largest one flashing the other day.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Amanda, that is very likely a worm. I'm in class so I can't explain exactly what to do at the moment or identify your worm, but look into antiparasitics and dewormers, such as ParaGuard, General Cure, and PraziPro. Americanaquariumproducts.com and wetwebmedia.com are excellent resources


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Here's a picture of the muscle of a bear with trichinosis. The spiral is the worm in the encysted muscle.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Amanda, please make your own thread.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

So I just talked to the Zoology prof. Of course I chose insect project turn in day to go talk to him so there was boxes of pinned bugs EVERYWHERE. It's disgusting. I hated that project with a fiery passion. He has no clue what it could be, but he's speculating tumor of some other growth. He said I can email him the pictures and details and he'll continue to look into it and see if he can find a betta specialist. He also agreed to do a necropsy if my betta dies before the semester ends (so essentially within a week). He didn't seem sold on the trichinosis theory. Back to the drawing board it is. I'll probably start a thread to see if the rest of the forum has any idea as to wtf this is. In the mean time, I think it would be best to stop treatment because I have even less of an idea of what I'm dealing with than before.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Urgh, went MIA again because now I'm the one with sick fish =_='. Bought 15 fish this week from the same place and they're all infected, yay..

I'm with your professor here too. Like I said before; the baths you used were a blend of really broad and strong antibacterial medication and you made a good choice with them in my opinion but if it is a tumor it's not treatable. 

I think it's unlikely that even if this is bacterial you'd be able to cure him at this point, even with a swab test under a microscope. I'm not sure what to make of that image either but my best guess is it either looks like the beginning stages of tissue death in the area or a rupture.

You could either be looking at organs or it could be veins too. Betta are really small so that area should be the general area of the heart and liver and intestines.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help, I'm really not sure I have any more advice to offer...


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I contacted another set of fish people (I feel guilty for cheating on bettafish) and was told to go ahead and give another go at the parasites, to PraziPro should be delivered tomorrow. The main reason for even trying that is a couple of my cories have been flashing. That's my last ditch effort. After that I'm calling it quits and releasing him back in the ten gallon to live out the rest of his days

Edit: What's wrong with your poor fishies??? I hope it's nothing serious!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

This fish is going to be the death of me. Found an anchor worm on his dorsal when I got home today. Whether it's from the new plants or the live mosquito larvae (well cleaned, from decently clean water in my backyard) I gave him twice last week, I'll never know. Just in case it's from the plants I'll probably have to treat the entire 10 gallon. And just in case it's from the larvae I mind as well treat my other betta's 5 gallon tank too. Lovely. So lovely.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I find the new site is not easy to navigate for some reason D:.



sabrinah said:


> I contacted another set of fish people (I feel guilty for cheating on bettafish) and was told to go ahead and give another go at the parasites, to PraziPro should be delivered tomorrow. The main reason for even trying that is a couple of my cories have been flashing. That's my last ditch effort. After that I'm calling it quits and releasing him back in the ten gallon to live out the rest of his days
> 
> Edit: What's wrong with your poor fishies??? I hope it's nothing serious!


Oh don't ever feel guilty for asking for a second opinion! I fall short in knowledge when it comes to parasites because I've only dealt with those twice. And the treatment that worked for me rarely works for others because the fish was severely ill already by the time I got him so parasites were my secondary concern and I treated it with a not so strong course of treatment. That's an odd recommendation though. Prazipro has the same active antiparasitic as General Cure. Did they say why you should try that specifically when General Cure didn't work?

:sad: I'm sorry about the anchor worms! But since you're seeing external parasites, the prazipro should help. Try a bit of aq. salt too. Less than medication dose though because of his bloating. 

^^; Sadly, my fish had pretty poor luck. Whatever it was they had hit quick and hard. I'm down to 3 Rummynose Tetra and 1 Panda Cory out of 10 Rummy and 4 Panda. Most of them died within the first 24 hrs of symptoms which appeared sometime on the 2nd day after I purchased them so the treatment didn't even have a chance to take effect even though I already had all the medication... though one Rummy literally went missing (don't ask, I have NO explanation because there is no place he could have hidden and if he managed to jump he's not on my floor Oo.). I've finally managed to stabilize the remaining ones and they're doing well physically but the one Cory isn't eating so he may not make it either. First and LAST time I purchase fish from that place.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I find it a bit difficult to navigate too! 

I put 3 drops of PraziPro in his hospital tank last night and this morning the anchor worm was gone. There's just an angry red hole left in his fin. The aq salt makes him bloat more, so I won't be putting it in. Maybe I'll do a MB dip or something. PraziPro definitely clears them out. The amount of poop I cleaned out this morning was ridiculous! The other tanks will be getting treated Friday after a water change. 

Are you doing any dips or treatments when you first bring them home? 

Totally unrelated: I need new lighting for my 5 gallon. It has a lid with 3 pathetic little LEDs that can't even keep anacharis alive. I figure I'll get a glass lid and a light bar or a lamp or something. Any recommendations? Do you know if the LED bars are any good?


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

D: And I definitely don't like that I can't read posts without logging in!!

Is the prazipro doing anything for the swelling? Glad to hear he's pooping and the worm's gone! Now if only his other symptoms went away as quickly :/.

Oh, no, I don't always believe in preventative treatment to be honest except for a little methylene blue unless you're already seeing visible signs of disease in the fish or the store's tanks. I've always done the same method of quarantine; ~1-2 weeks in a bucket or container the size of 20 long (depends on how many and of what I purchase) with minimal light and then the remaining 3 or 2 weeks with some lighting resembling the display. Decor added accordingly to swim level of species and water used for water changes removed from display tank. I have never in my life experienced this level of tragedy before :|. To be honest if I'm buying from a place I know to have good, healthy fish I usually skip quarantine unless, like in this case, the fish will be going into a tank with shrimp or sensitive plants (I have about 80$ worth of Cryptocoryne and shrimp in my 29g lol, I'm not about to risk them easily). There are a number of big reasons why I'm against preventative treatment but I seem to be a minority most of the times ^^;.

Hmm, is this a standard rectangular tank? What's the height and length of it if not?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I think not being able to read posts without logging in might make newcomers less likely to stay around. I know I certainly wouldn't if I couldn't check it out first!

None of his other symptoms have changed. His one eye is still slightly popped out and cloudy, he's super skinny and bloated, the weird spiral thingy is still there. He looks clamped, or maybe he's just exhausted. No worms in the poop. Over the weekend I got some rotala and water sprite and put a piece of each in his hospital (all he had in there before was IAL, a small piece of anacharis, and a little anubias), and he's been trying so hard to make tiny little bubble nests! They're horribly pathetic; super tiny bubbles all in a line along the tank because he can't move well enough to make an actual nest, he just blows bubbles where he drifts. 

Does the store you bought them from happen to be a chain? I would hate for anyone else to get sick fish!

The 5 gallon is a standard rectangle. The lid sits down within the frame though so a glass lid would either have to be cut or sit weirdly on top. The LEDs were decent for about the first 6 months, and then every plant died. If Spike (the betta in the 5 gallon) had been planned, I would have figured out new lighting before throwing the tank back together, but since he was dying in a cup at Petco I didn't get to worry about lighting. All I can keep in there is two Java ferns, my smallest marimo, and an itty bit bit of anubias, none of which are growing in that tank though they flourished in the 10 gallon. The anacharis die and rot within 2 weeks. I was thinking a desk lamp with an adjustable arm, but those things are $20!


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## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh, there you guys are! Couldn't find you after the update. 

I hear you about the lights. You guys in the US have stingray, we don't get that in Canada. Our led options are really expensive or crummy, so a cfl bulb in a desk lamp is the cheapest solution that I could find. Not slick, but it works.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Turns out I actually don't have room for a desk lamp by the tank. I'm between the stingray and the fugeray. The fugeray is much more highly recommended, but the stingray is half the price! There's also the issue of finding a glass lid that fits. This tank is from the aqua culture 5 gallon kit, and the lid sits down in the frame. The lids are all 16 inches, but for it to sit down where I would like it to it needs to be 15 3/8. I have nothing I could trim down a glass lid with. The "Marineland Perfecto Glass Canopy - for 5.5 gal" from thatpetplace claims to be 15.25, which would work great, but it could arrive broken and I would have to pay shipping, making it nearly $20. Regardless of what I do that tank needs plants and decorations. I'm thinking of buying spider wood and anubias from jdaquatics


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Since the PraziPro wasn't having any affect I put him back in the 10 gallon. I think it freaked him out a bit because he sank like a rock and just laid on the bottom of the tank breathing heavily. He felt better after picking on a snail and scooting around the bottom (literally stomach and tail on the substrate, wiggling his way around) following the cories. The tank has changed a bit since he's been in his hospital, with a ton of plants dying (I now have zero vals and my Monte Carlo is having a very hard time bouncing back. Kinda angry about that), new spider wood, and a jungle of floaters. He loves the floaters of course, but they're proving to be inconvinient. It's horribly difficult to find my betta in them! It's worse than playing Where's Waldo. Try finding the betta in the picture. Give it your best shot. 

In other news, I found a glass lid for the 5 gallon from Drs foster and smith. Hopefully it arrives in one piece. I decided on the clip on FugeRay planted+. It was pricey ($40something) but every time I cheap out on something it breaks and I end up having to buy the good one I didn't want to spend the money on anyway. So frustrating. The light was delivered today but I won't get the lid for a week! I guess it gives me time to try and find the best deal on plants for the 5. Some of the rotala and wisteria from the 10 will definitely be going in it, along with one of the Amazon swords. Any other suggestions for medium light plants (no co2, yes liquid frets, yes root tabs) and where to get them cheap would be greatly appreciated.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Agreed! I hadn't thought of that actually, for me the inconvenience is I usually check replies on my phone and then reply on laptop or pc because it's inconvenient to type on my phone (if I may the mistake of either switching tabs or letting the phone switch to landscape view or out of landscape view it usually refreshes and erases what I wrote). And like olgamc mentioned, it's absurdly difficult to search for the posts without having to go through the subscriptions link >_>.

:c poor baby. 

Nope, I only buy from chain stores in my area (Petco, Petsmart, Pet Supplies..) if I'm buying Amano shrimp they've mislabeled and are selling for like 50 cents or a dollar each (you'd be surprised how often this happens lol) or if I'm buying dog food. I don't buy fish from them. This place is the place where I buy nearly all my plants here in MA. You can check out their online store at Tropicisleaquarium.com because they have videos of the tanks and man that place is like my candy store XD. They usually have a wonderful selection of driftwood too but of course I stay clear from that isle to spare my wallet . But no more fish from them >_>... If I do get fish from them it's only ever going to be the hardy types like goldfish.. or guppy.. Neither of which I see myself getting in the near future.

Ah, if you had waited I could have steered you toward the Fugeray ^^'. I have numerous Finnex fixtures and one remaining Current fixture. I had the clip on on my 5.5 gallon (had to tape it and zip tie it to the hang on filter because I didn't want to de-rim the tank. If your tank is rimmed you're going to have this issue too since the clip is designed for rimless tanks.) and I ended up having to adjust it up, up, up because it was too much light both for the low light tank it was on and for the Betta (too bright, alternatively you can zip tie something like craft mesh around the light to dim it that way). I much prefer the fugeray for such short tanks and that's what I use now on those. I LOVE the Stingray on my 10 gallon and it works beautifully but it's not strong enough, due to the tank height, if I let the floaters in the tank grow. For small tanks though, I think the quality between the Stingray and Fugeray would be very similar to be honest but I only have experience with Stingray on my 10 gallon. I purchased my 10 gallon glass lid from Drs F&S (before they sold to Petco and increased their taxes and prices :C) and they took fantastic care of the package but even if they don't, they've always been good with me in regards to customer service.

I suspected PraziPro wouldn't do much because General Cure didn't. I'm sorry to hear that. Are you treating your 10 gallon with anything right now? 
Also, I remembered (more like I've finally had time to backtrack and google for sources ) where I saw the Metro/Neo combo for bloating issues: Aquarium Medications Part 2 | Antibiotic & Antimicrobial Treatments
If you scroll down to Metronidazole, it's the second paragraph.

Edit: Lol, is he on the bottom off-center right?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I guess it will just take a while to get used to this format. A long while...

Ya know how I said when I cheap out on things they break? Yea. Happened again. I got an adjustable heater for my 5 gallon (had a preset one that's set at 76-80) that was a new brand. It had good reviews so far so I figured I would give it a shot. It made weird popping noises when I first put it in, and then when I checked the temperature the next morning it had dropped down to 74! I unplugged it and let it sit for a while before I pulled it out and guess what? Full of water. The old preset one is back in for now and struggling to keep the temp at 76 (it's actually more at 75.5). Looks like I'll be ordering the eheim jager 25 watt. I have the 50 watt for my 10 and love it to pieces. 

My 5 does have a rim. This should be fun then. Looks like I'll have to get crafty. I hope this doesn't end up being too much light. I intend on either having rotala and water Sprite as floaters, or planting them and having salvinia minima. 

I'll definitely check out their online store. I've gotten most of my plants from plantedaquariumscentral.com (20 gallon plant package), and most recently from Neptune Aquatics. Neptune is a little out of the way and a bit pricey though so I was hoping for a better option. And I spend too much money there in general. They got massive loads of driftwood, spider wood, rocks. It's horrible. And since the spider wood I originally got for the 5 was too big, it would be too easy for me to justify buying another couple pieces. You know, just in case one doesn't fit or something. I've gotten a few of the packaged plants from PetSmart, but again they're a bit pricey. I should make a plant list and plan on spending a few hours online during the aquabid SNE. 

Is there even a point in trying more medications? His condition seems to be relatively stable now, even though he still isn't better. It would be nice if the bloat could be fixed because he has difficulties swimming, but if it's lasted this long it has to be a tumor or a cyst or something. Short of fishy surgery there's not much I can do about that. The cories are loving his imaried movement because he can't chase them or follow them around. He can't even react if one of them smacks him in the face or swims in to him. He kinda just has to sit there and deal with it. It's sad but he does seem happier being back in the 10.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I just don't like change... On the other hand, I was doing training modules for work while responding here during a 10 min break and I either went crazy or the site preserved what I wrote [when the screen refreshed] and if that's a new thing, forget my complaints, I love the change XD!

D: Oh no, I'm sorry to hear that! I use Aqueon's adjustable heaters. They're relatively cheap and they've never failed me yet. I do nearly always have extra Salvinia which gets tossed out if you ever want to shoot me a PM for a raok deal~ :3 I like to buy from Bobstropicalplants.com and I'm getting my next fish purchase from them and ONLY them >_>... I've never used Foster/Smith for plants or livestock though. And while we're on the subject; do you have a tank journal up somewhere?



sabrinah said:


> Is there even a point in trying more medications? His condition seems to be relatively stable now, even though he still isn't better. It would be nice if the bloat could be fixed because he has difficulties swimming, but if it's lasted this long it has to be a tumor or a cyst or something. Short of fishy surgery there's not much I can do about that. The cories are loving his imaried movement because he can't chase them or follow them around. He can't even react if one of them smacks him in the face or swims in to him. He kinda just has to sit there and deal with it. It's sad but he does seem happier being back in the 10.


I think that's entirely up to the symptoms and changes you're seeing in him. If you think he's able to continue living normally, then I wouldn't; but I'm still under the impression that this is a tumor instead of an infection because of how very little change there's been in his condition. On the other hand, parasitic infections and other types of bloating and swelling can develop and occur through a prolonged period of time. So if you would rather not attempt more treatments (and honestly, for right now at least, he should be given a bit of rest from meds), just keep an eye on him. I would just be very careful of him in the tank with the driftwood in case he swims against it and injures himself or through it and gets stuck somewhere.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

When I get my glass lid and can finally set up the light I will definitely be sending you a pm! 

I started a journal once upon a time but stopped posting on it. It was mainly so I could see the color changes of the bettas in one place, instead of going through albums on my phone and computer. Once finals are over (I am 98.7% sure I'm going to fail my Chem exam. Been studying constantly to no avail) I'll probably get back to it and fill it with pictures, maybe briefly summarize this whole event. 

When he was first showing signs of being ill and was itchy he did somehow manage to get himself under the driftwood for a full body scratching session, but he doesn't seem itchy anymore. He honestly can't swim well enough to get himself under the driftwood again. He has limited control of his frontal region because of its weight, and his tail end just kinda bobs around. He spends most of his time up in the jumble of floaters.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

D: oh no! If you'd like extra chem help and have time, you can shoot me a pm. I applied as a pharmacist before I switched to engineering so I have some organic chem knowledge and throughout high school and early college my focus was chemistry as well as I've done my preliminary biochem courses for biomed. I'm through with school and am not in summer courses so I'll have the time!

Ah, I see. Well, it's a thought in case he gets worse but it seems that now all that you can just about do is make him comfortable as well you can :/. It's really frustrating not being able to tell with certainty what the issue is, isn't it?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I may have to take you up on the Chem help if this stuff doesn't start making sense. Everyone else in my class has hit that point where it just clicks and I'm still trying to put the pieces together. Chem just isn't my thing. It never has been. Ask my anything you want about animals though! I got that down. 

Odds are I'll end up trying it at some point. I'm pretty close to having a totally fishy pharmacy going on. My room has been totally taken over by fish stuff since I'm too preoccupied with studying to truly clean and organize. Containers everywhere, measuring cups and spoons, hospital tank stil full of water, empty plant containers. It's truly special.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I just have to mention how truly adorable it is when bettas get excited. When I feed them live mosquito larvae I put the bettas in cups or jars because I don't want the larvae escaping and fully developing. When they see me come up to their tanks with their container they get SO EXCITED. They do the cutest little dances until they're scooped up, and stare up at me until I start giving them the larvae. So. Adorable.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Feel free to pm me anytime, especially for chem, I've always loved the subject and took college courses early in high school because I liked it so much lol. 



sabrinah said:


> Odds are I'll end up trying it at some point. I'm pretty close to having a totally fishy pharmacy going on. My room has been totally taken over by fish stuff since I'm too preoccupied with studying to truly clean and organize. Containers everywhere, measuring cups and spoons, hospital tank stil full of water, empty plant containers. It's truly special.


XD I'm in the same boat. I have two 5 gallon buckets and a 3 gallon tank up and running as QT not to mention the 5 gallon aquatic plant/herbs/veggie nursery I have on my computer desk haha. This hobby will take over your life.

lol, I've not fed live in quite a long while (unless you count the feeding of unusually large detritus worms when I disturb them and can grab them in time) but they do love their frozen foods. My big VT boy doesn't like bloodworms as much as he likes shrimps though XD, odd boy. 

I'd recommend keeping up on the fiber rich foods like crustaceans as well a couple times a week for him, just as a safety precaution for his kidneys. Do update us on him if anything changes!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He gets frozen bloodworms, daphnia, and spirulina brine shrimp throughout the week. I also give a little of the probiotics food once or twice a week. If I could find cyclops I would try those too. Neptune Aquatics sells them but they're always out when I go. When I have enough larvae I'm freezing them in little cubes.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Did a little test today. I've been curious just how poor his sight is (he can hardly find a NLS 1mm pellet) and I had some larvae that absolutely had to get eaten because today was looking like the last day of their larval stage. I put a couple inches of water in his hospital container and a ton of larvae of various sizes. It did not go well. They had to be in just the right spot no more than 2 inches away for him to see them, and catching them was very difficult. For comparison I put my other, completely healthy betta in afterwards. He could easily spot all sizes, but preferred to hunt down the larger ones first unless a small one was particularly tasty looking. Pretty sure he ate 10-15 big ones in less than a minute. He's getting fasted tomorrow. He ate 4 in the time it took me to grab the net, and more while I chased him around with it. 

I'm guessing no more than 2 weeks max before my sick guy is completely blind.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm so sorry :c! Is he physically getting worse or is there no physical difference other than sight? You mentioned before that his swollen eye was getting better, is it still significantly swollen?

Edit: Also, do you remember what you were using when the eye was getting better and if you ran the treatment through its full course?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His swollen eye is still swollen and cloudy. It's not as bad as it once was and its not changing condition. Physically he appears to have lost a little more weight and the bloat looks like a fairly sharp angle instead of being smooth when viewing his from above and slightly to the side. I imagine this is his ribs making an appearance. 

I think I was using ParaGuard when his eye was improving, but it worsened his over all condition. I'm pretty sure I used it for a full course. 

I'm pretty sure euthanasia is something I'm going to have to consider. He can hardly swim, he can't turn around, he spends all his time either laying at the bottom of the tank or sitting in the floaters, and if he slips out of the floaters he sinks like a rock. Sometimes when he's sinking to the bottom he doesn't have the strength to move his front half, thus he ends up laying there with his face in the sand until his body flops over, and he lays there until he can muster up the strength to get back to the floaters. He struggles to eat. All his senses are deteriorating. Not only is he nearly blind, but he appears to be unable to sense the vibrations in the water. If he was at the bottom of the tank during feeding time I would always stick something in the water and wiggle it to catch his attention. Now he doesn't notice it. He doesn't even seem to register when I tap on the glass. He doesn't react when the cories shoal around him or run into his face. If they plow into him he simply falls over and lays on his side for a while.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I can't give you advice on that decision but it sounds to me like he's getting close to giving up himself. If you wanted a last resort treatment, the feeding slurry I recommended earlier is the only treatment I can think of that could have an effect on him at this point given how he reacted before to the type of treatments but even then it may be less than a 50/50 chance it could work. 

The only thing I can tell you is that in my point of view, I always take two things into consideration before deciding on something like this; are they still eating and if they still have moments where they're energetic and lively. I think until you do make the decision though, it's better to keep him isolated, even if his condition is not seemingly contagious. It may not appear to be stressful for him but having high energy fish around like you're mentioning is not helpful given his condition. An ill fish is just better off on its own unless it's a schooling/social fish. 
I'm really truly sorry you've had to reach this point and we couldn't make him better.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

It seems like in the last couple days he's starting to turn around a little bit. He doesn't have his fiery personality back but he's getting better at keeping himself afloat and he's doing his best to make bubble nests. They're pitiful tiny little nests with super tiny bubbles but I'm taking it as a good sign that he's feeling well enough to put in that kind of effort. He also came up to my fingers for his breakfast this morning which is something he hasn't done for a long time. His coloring is definitely better in the large tank than it was in his hospital. The last day or two the cories have been avoiding him so maybe he finally kicked their little butts. I could very well be imagining things but it almost seems like his abdomen is slightly smaller. I'll have to get a picture so you can tell me if I'm crazy or not. I also ordered him a floating betta log that should be delivered later today. 

In other news I got the glass canopy for the 5 gallon today and I can finally fill it up with plants! All I have in there now is 3 anubias (one super tiny clump, two small tall ones), two java ferns, a marimo moss ball, and a small sword. The plant hunt begins! And a new driftwood hunt because I don't want to put the piece of mopani I had in here back. The fungus that grows on it got over an inch thick and spread to the walls of the tank, and even though I've had it out of the tank for about 2 weeks I still haven't gotten all the crud off the walls and the sand. I also can't get all the tannis out of the mopani. The tannins and sap are endless. I really want a piece of spider wood (really hard to find one that will fit in my tank) that I can attach moss to.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I really wish the update had included being able to upload more than one picture to a post when on your phone


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Does it look overall flatter to you?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm too lazy to upload these to my computer and put them all in one post


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Gotta make sure there's plenty of pictures apparently! Should have just done this on the computer....


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Aish, sorry, this time I'm the one that got sick this week _ _".

He looks considerably less swollen in the last image! His eye looks puffy still but he definitely looks like he lost some of that belly bulge to me. How is he doing now? Any difference?? It's a fantastic sign nevertheless that he's swimming better (and that the cories are keeping to their own corners . Mine are just terrible, I can't even keep plants with them if the plants don't root well.).

Great to hear that your tanks are coming along as well! Once you have one you just want more right?! I also have a few stems of Bacopa monnieri (Moneywort) that I've been growing emersed that I can toss in as well. I've been keeping them in my cracked 5 gallon along with my lettuce and basil sprouts . Where do you normally go for spider wood?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh no! Get well soon! 

His activity has decreased once again, but his eye is almost completely better! I think he's put on a little weight. The cories now get to entertain themselves with the gammarus shrimp that magically appeared. I wish my betta would go to the bottom of the talk again because he would have a field day hunting those little suckers. I fed one to my other betta and he had a bit of fun, but one stuffed him completely. 

I really wish I still had space for the salvinia and moneywort! I'll be redoing the 10 within the next week or so and hopefully I'll be able to make some room in there. The 5 now has a big chunk of spider wood with a mass of Java fern, anubias, and subwassertang glued to it, as well as an Amazon sword, a few stems of rotala in the back, and a red tiger lotus. I can't tell if the changes made him more comfortable or freaked him out. He was glass surfing before and his finds were rather puffed out all the time, but now his fins look almost clamped. 

I've been getting my spider wood from Neptune Aquatics. They got two massive crates of spider wood in, a couple crates of driftwood, and bunches of rock and lava rock. I love being able to pick the piece out.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Thanks c:~ I got better alongside my fish lol. (Also, turns out the in-store stock of Corydoras were infected at the place I bought my fish from and that's why I lost them.)

Does he still have decreased activity and clamped fins? 



sabrinah said:


> I love being able to pick the piece out.


Ah, I agree. If the prices locally weren't so exorbitant I would much rather buy in person too. If you need other options though a couple of users on Aquabid as well as JDAquatics have been selling some interesting pieces of smaller sized spiderwood lately and they post really clear pictures. The site I mentioned before, Bob's Tropical Plants, also has some really nice spiderwood driftwood regularly on his "Other Driftwood" category on his website and he almost always has a size ref or ruler with the pieces.

And that's a beautiful tank! I love the layout of it and that wood is magnificent :shock2:!!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Eek poor corys and poor you!

I almost bought a piece of spider wood from JDaquatics off aquabid but by the time I had decided I wanted it, it was gone. The prices at Neptune Aquatics are decent. Spider wood is $10 for extra small, $15 for small (which is what I have. Not actually very small and need to be trimmed to fit in even a 10 gallon), $20 for a medium, etc. If I still have it I'll post a picture of the other piece I got that's going in the 10 after some serious trimming. 

My boy in the 5 seems to have accepted the hunk of wood in the middle of his tank and is much happier now. No more clamped fins. The fungus on the wood is out of control though. It covers the entire tank and filter, making it nearly impossible to see into the tank. I had to take out all the plants not glued to the wood because they were suffering. Yesterday I took the wood out and scrubbed off the fungus from the wood and plants, and today it's back with a vengeance, all long and stringy. It's even on the tips of my betta's fins. The MTS in that tank refuse to come out of their shells and when I put the nerite in there he made a beeline out of the tank and refused to go back in the water. I have to do water changes every other day just to keep the water livable, and suck out chunks of fungus throughout the day. 

My habitually ill betta is still ill and pretty much leading a sedentary lifestyle at this point. His eye is still better and he's not as bloated but he hardly moves. He spends all his time at the surface in the plants and won't even come out to be fed. I have to stick a pellet on a wet stick and try to get it in front of his face. For once I'm actually happy to have the pesky little shrimp because they're taking all the pellets the damn fish misses. And they eat fish poop! They're creepy looking little suckers though.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

;~; I know. At least the 3 Rummy and the one Cory that survived are 100% recovered though. They're in the 29g already and active.

Ow wow, I pay like 2 to 3 times that here if I want to buy in stores! And that spiderwood is awesome ! That's the one going in the 10? I have a tendency to stick to Malaysian because I like darker woods but I'm starting to change my mind lately ^^;. Those pieces make a really great centerpiece!

Oh ok, I had misunderstood and though that the clamped fins were a recent symptom of Spitfire (Did I get his name right?) instead of being another fish altogether. It's weird that he's getting better physically but behaviourally he's not improving and potentially degrading :/... Your fish has really got me stumped.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Have you ever bought fish online? It would be more expensive for sure but they would probably be healthier. 

Yea that one is going in the 10. Im going to have to cut a good portion of the thick long branch off to make it fit. It was also considered a small piece. They had some pieces of spider wood that were over 2 feet long. Truly massive. You would love it their Malaysian selection. They had a huge crate of it with a ton of truly massive pieces. It's a great store but they are a bit pricey for some things. I believe my Pygmy Corydoras were $5 or 6 each, and their shrimp range from $7-30. They also have fish in with their plants, planaria in quite a few tanks, and apparently have gammarus shrimp in there too. I think those are prices worth paying for fish health though. I've never seen a dead fish in a tank. I got the idea for the design in the 5 from one of the employees. When I told them my plan they showed me pictures of their gorgeous tanks. 

Yes you got the name right! Mr. Sickly is Spitfire, and the boy in the 5 is Spike. Spike was freaked about his tank changes and clamped up. Spitfire has been a problem child from the get go (trying to commit suicide via tank ornament) so frankly I'm not surprised he has an illness that can't be identified. I always get the complicated animals! My family says it's because I'm the only one that has the love and patience to do whatever it takes to fix them up instead of taking the easy route and sending them to a shelter or putting them down.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His creepy spirally thing is less creepy and less spirally.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Will we ever be able to post more than one picture at a time on mobile? Do forum apps make it possible to post more than one at a time? 

Anyways, here's him lounging in a tangle of roots. He's not actually lounging, he fell from the top and ended up there. It shows how jacked up his scales are though. They don't lay smoothly AT ALL. Have I ever mentioned how small he is? His body is maybe an inch and a half. Maybe. That's pushing it. Probably more like an inch and a quarter. I'm surprised he hasn't tore his tail off yet to lessen the weight.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Oh wow, first;


sabrinah said:


> Have I ever mentioned how small he is? His body is maybe an inch and a half. Maybe. That's pushing it. Probably more like an inch and a quarter. I'm surprised he hasn't tore his tail off yet to lessen the weight.


He looks considerably larger than that in photos! I expected him to be nearly 2 inches to be honest. XD still, to me that sounds huge because my current oldest Betta (the one on my avatar image checking out the snail) is exactly 3 cm in body length. So just a bit short of 1.2 inches. 

Now, back on topic your boy seems considerably less swollen!! Or is it the angle of the photograph? Because that first image it honestly looks like he's got a "normal" sized belly now :question:?? Is he still responsive to you?


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He is less swollen but not entirely normal. His stomach isn't distended down at all and isn't puffed up much towards the top, but it's still very bloated sideways at the very front. It looks like he swallowed a stick and its sitting horizontally just under his throat. I wish I could get a picture to show you what I mean, but I rarely get to see him up close anymore. He spends absolutely all his time sitting on the plants, sometimes at the very back of the tank. He won't move for anything other than adjusting his position. During feeding times he knows what time it is but he doesn't come to the front of the tank. I have to stick his food to a stick and do my best to get it to him, then maneuver it until he sees it. At this point he's really not living, he's just existing. I think he may be going at his tail a bit because it seems a little shorter, a little more ragged. I can't blame him for biting the weight off. 

The mail around here comes pretty late and I'm incredibly impatient. I have an urge to mess with the tanks but I can't yet!


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Ooh, I'm sorry, that doesn't sound good. If he's like that and given he's had a bit of a rest from medication now maybe try feeding what I recommended before? Either a neomycin/metronidazole slurry or General Cure as a food soak are effective. 

lol, I hear you. My 29 gallon is 90% Crypts and even though I know I should leave them be for a good 3 months after planting, I hate sitting still and making sure I'm not disturbing their root systems because I like rearranging plants and cutting side shoots when I have free time .


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm hesitant to try any more medication because I don't think he would survive it. He makes breathing look like the most difficult thing in the world. And I think the cloudiness in his eye that was popped out is actually a cataract since it's shown no change, and it's also developing on his other eye. 

I have no idea what I want to do to the tanks but I'm restless and need to do something, anything, to them.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I understand the feeling. If he's at that point though it may be highly unlikely he'll recover on his own. Medications taken internally also put less strain on the fish because there's no stress of removing for baths, water changes, etc. On the other hand, I'm not there with him to see the full extent of his condition for myself so...

Hmm, have you tried hardscaping with rocks as a centerpiece/centerpiece emphasis before? I've always stuck with driftwood but I'm thinking of picking up some local river rocks and scaping the left half of my 29g with that because I've never done it before.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

He's deteriorated even more. His fins are in awful condition even though the water is very clean. He hardly tries to eat at all. I was feeding him the 1mm NLS pellets because he was able to see those, but he stopped making an effort to grab them. I had to switch back to omega one. He couldn't see those but they would get sucked into his mouth when he took a breath or blew a bubble. I ordered clove oil. The day it arrives I will give him a big bloodworm dinner and euthanize him the next day. He'll be buried in a potted plant so I can bring him with me when I move. 

I've need tried hardscaping with rocks. They're just too expensive to buy and I'm not sure how comfortable I would be using rocks I find. It is definitely something I would like to try someday because I despise the fungus that comes with wood.

I did start up my journal again. It is truly horribly boring and I'm not quite sure why I made it. I'm planning on detailing the euthanasia process, how long it takes, how many drops of clove oil, and anything I find on his tiny body that could help figure out what was wrong. I'm definitely not doing a necropsy. Nope nope nope. I know I probably should but I can't. I just can't.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

His eye is popping back out.


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## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Oh no, I'm so so sorry to hear all of that. I thought he'd pull through after you'd started noticing changes in his swelling. I know it's not any consolation right now but at least Spitfire is really truly lucky to have had you as an owner, very few people would be willing to go through the troubles you went through to save him and keep him comfortable and you provided him a beautiful home as well.

I wish I could have been more help to the both of you. 

I'll definitely subscribe to your journal though (and all journals start up boring, it's the progression that's the fun part!)~


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

You were a great help through the entire process! I can't thank you enough for sticking through it all with us! 

The journal will probably be a bit graphic on Spitfire's last day because I'm going to take up close pictures of anything and everything just in case I or someone else can notice anything suspicious. I really ought to make a veterinarian friend or two. 

Since I have a pretty good fishy pharmacy going on I'll probably get a betta from Petco in August when I come back from vacation. I'll get the most pitiful looking one they have and hope he's fit for community life. My other boy, Spike, came or quite nice so it ought to be worth it, but he also turned out to be a jerk.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Spitfire is gone. The clove oil was delivered this morning.


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