# behavior change? after a salt dip



## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

I am posting out of curiosity and I am not too concerned. It's been awhile since I have given Clove a salt dip. I do a short dip once a month to maintain the swelling behind his eye.

Last night I used my fish net to put Clove in the 100% salt container for his dip. The container was kind of small so I decided not to move around the net, since being in it stresses him out enough. But he was obviously looking for a way out and started really thrashing and pooping a lot in the net. It was a lot to process and he had only been in the dip for maybe 20-30 seconds and has never gotten stressed during a dip before.

I didn't want to chance putting him in the 50% container just in case the salt was too overpowering but I didn't want to shock him by just putting him back in his 5g. So I kept him in the net and watched him as he sat at the top of the 5g.

I decided to post this since he didn't seem interested in eating today. I'm not sure if it's because the food was hard to see, there's bacterial bloom in my tank currently. Might be from some add-ins last night to calm me down so I could try and get some sleep (Rooibos tea, Melafix & VitaChem).
Also he's been sitting in the top corner of the tank and isn't exploring as much as he usually does.

I don't want to make this post too long so if anyone needs more information, please ask!


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Clove just started twitching after not being as responsive as he usually is so I'll drop this here just in case.

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? 5g
Does it have a filter? yes
Does it have a heater? yes
What temperature is your tank? 75-80
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? none

Food:
What food brand do you use? TopFin
Do you feed flakes or pellets? pellets
Freeze-dried? no
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? 3-4, once a day

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? once a week
What percentage of water did you change? 30-50%
What is the source of your water? tap
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? vacuum
What additives do you use? What brand of conditioner? Prime

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water *before* the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH: 7
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms? last night around 9pm
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? pale underneath the face (but he does this sometimes just from being in his net)
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? yes
Is your Betta still eating? hard to say. he ate one pellet today and wasn't interested after
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? no, just added some Rooibos
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? yes
How long have you owned your Betta? 10 months
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? no


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

sorry for posting again, 
but I'm getting my water tested tomorrow because I think Clove might have Ick. I am not sure since Clove's coloration gives him white "specks" normally. 

Open to suggestions I will not start treatment until tomorrow night since I have a family event going on all day tomorrow..
I transferred him to his 2.5g heated hospital tank for the night.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

I wanted to update since I tested my water and the employees at PetSmart said my water was perfectly fine but they believe he is in shock from the salt dip.

Clove is still lethargic and hasn’t been swimming and when he does he starts to twitch. He seems to be interested in eating but just continued twitching when he was trying to swim and I didn’t want him to get too excited. I’ll try again tomorrow.
When he twitches he’s wiggling frantically and moving his pectoral fins rapidly.
I also think the fluid behind his eye has gotten worse. But that could be that I’m extremely worried and seeing things lol.

He’s currently in his 2.5 g with epsom salt and Melafix, heated to 78.

Just updating, if anyone could help I would appreciate it!


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## Betta_addict36 (Jan 14, 2019)

Im sorry, i dont know anything about salt dips or anything but might i suggest you request to have a moderator move this to the diseases and emergencies category? Youll get alot more traffick there


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Do you have a clear picture of the eye-swelling you're treating him for? (All your pics right now are from the same side, so I can't evaluate both eyes. Taken from the top would be most helpful!) And are you using AQ salt or Epsom salt?

I will say that that based on your pictures, it doesn't look like he has ich to me. Ich looks like solid grains of salt dusted all over, which I don't see any signs of in your boy.

Personally I am not a fan of the "-fix" family of "medicines" (Melafix, Bettafix, etc). They contain tea tree oil, which is controversial when dealing with bettas, and more importantly people try and use them like an actual medicine when they're really just herbal supplements. You'd do just as well to give your betta some clean water and tannins, if there isn't a disease that needs to be treated with antibiotics.

When you set up the salt dip, did you use water from his tank, or fresh from the tap? Did you remember to condition it if it was tap water? Was the temperature the same? What amount of salt did you use? For once, I agree with the pet store employee, and think this is likely stress from the dip. I would just keep his water clean and of a stable temperature, and I'd expect him to perk back up in a day or two.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Rana said:


> Do you have a clear picture of the eye-swelling you're treating him for? (All your pics right now are from the same side, so I can't evaluate both eyes. Taken from the top would be most helpful!) And are you using AQ salt or Epsom salt?
> 
> I will say that that based on your pictures, it doesn't look like he has ich to me. Ich looks like solid grains of salt dusted all over, which I don't see any signs of in your boy.
> 
> ...


I apologize, the side of my house was hit during a storms so my internet has been down for 2 days, so I have to post this from my phone.
I’ve been treating him with salt baths & salt dips with Epsom Salt since Dec 2018 from physical damage. (He kept hitting his eye on a glass thermometer) This weeks dip was using his tank water, which I got tested and it was fine.

I’m treating him with Melafix since it’s what I have on hand. The employees at PetSmart said I shouldn’t do a water change for a day or two and to treat him with Melafix. I’ll attach the photo of him from above (I apologize since he’s resting on the glass it’s not directly above) and also just an updated photo from today (I had to mess with the setting to make him not just a dark silhouette)! EDIT: the quality of the photos really went downhill after resizing from mobile, I hope they still help 😕

I’m really torn since he’s been twitching while he swims and did not want to stress him out even more by doing a water change.
If you could let me know your thoughts I’d appreciate it!


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Oh no, sorry to hear about your house/internet issues!

He's had that injury since December, huh? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a permanent condition now, scar tissue rather than a fluid build-up. But that would depend on whether you notice the swelling going down after an Epsom treatment (either bath or dip), or not. (There's a possibility that it's swollen because of an internal infection, like an abscess, but I would have expected it to have either gotten better or else worse by now.) It's good that you're using his tank water for the dips, it cuts down on the number of things that could be stressing him.

The twitching is indeed worrisome- does it look like he's "flashing", as if he's trying to scrape something off his skin? There's two tiny dots in your top-view picture that _could_ be ich, which would make him itchy, but I can't tell with enough certainty.

I'm guessing you used new water in his hospital tank, so there's no reason not to do a big water change on his usual tank in the meantime, just to make sure it's nice and clean when he goes back in. For the tank he's currently in, frequent water changes would probably stress him out more, so I'd just use extra Prime for a couple of days, and add tannins with Rooibois tea or IAL if you have any. When you do do a water change, or when you add him to the main tank again, I would take out the Epsom salt. It's usually pretty mild but if you've been treating him periodically since December, he might be getting sensitive to it.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Rana said:


> Oh no, sorry to hear about your house/internet issues!
> 
> He's had that injury since December, huh? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a permanent condition now, scar tissue rather than a fluid build-up. But that would depend on whether you notice the swelling going down after an Epsom treatment (either bath or dip), or not. (There's a possibility that it's swollen because of an internal infection, like an abscess, but I would have expected it to have either gotten better or else worse by now.) It's good that you're using his tank water for the dips, it cuts down on the number of things that could be stressing him.
> 
> ...


The easiest was I could describe his twitching is like the full body wiggling of a dog when it’s really excited??
Clove spends his time just sitting towards the surface of the tank. But when he starts swimming is when he twitches/wiggles.
His pectoral fins also works with the dog analogy, they are working rapidly, similar to how fast dogs wag their tail when excited.
Sorry if it doesn’t make much sense lol, I wish I could easily post videos.

I do think his eye has worsened within the past day, but it might be due to his stress or maybe his immune system is down? Back around Feb 2018 I got his swelling down and then added Aquarium Salt to his tank, he sat in it, and then his eye swelled right back up and hasn’t went down since then.

I just added some Rooibos, but I’m going to add more soon instead of floating the tea bag since he’s so close to the surface.

He’s very pale on his underside and kind of looks bloated? He’s only eaten one pellet two days ago.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

not much to update, Clove was swimming more actively yesterday but only for a small amount.
attached is a flash photo of Clove, he's been sitting behind the heater today. it was hard to get a picture of him.

also my heater has been making a popping noise more so than usual (since it makes a noise when turning on/off). does anyone think it could be an issue. (sorry i'm worried about things working since the lightning strike wiped a lot of our devices)

thanks!


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

it's been 5 days and Clove is not showing any improvement and he is not eating.

could someone move this to the Emergencies section?

i think i'm going to treat him with General Cure in 2 days.
he's starting to float sideways now.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

I was woken up this morning to hear splashes and to find Clove, mouth open, having a seizure.
He went grey for a bit but is now back to normal at the top of the tank.

So I'm currently waiting on FedEx/UPS to deliver my General Cure today, hope Clove makes it.


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## bluesamphire (Nov 20, 2018)

I’m so sorry to read about Clove’s illness.

Afraid I have no advice or suggestions, but i wish you both well.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

bluesamphire said:


> I’m so sorry to read about Clove’s illness.
> 
> Afraid I have no advice or suggestions, but i wish you both well.


Thank you, I had a friend take me to pick up medicine in hopes of beating the delivery.. but she just ended up dragging me around town for 3 hours and by the time I got home the medicine was in the mailbox.


I just started the treatment 10 mins ago and Clove ended having another seizure in the process. I really don't know if it is parasites, since they normally do not cause seizures, but at this point I'm thinking it's:

1) side effect from not being treated fast enough for parasites
2) there is still salt in his system that still needs to pass

I'm hoping his eye isn't causing them due to pressure on his brain.
I'll keep everyone updated.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

update:

I finished his General Cure treatment and ended up moving him to a heated, vertical 1g since water changes with my horizontal, 2.5g was getting to be too stressful on him.
He is starting to act more like himself (a little) but is still very skittish and hugging the walls when he swims. He also starts panicking if he gets stuck in a corner when he hugs the walls.

He still has not eaten, but is no longer having seizures. I'm worried since he is getting visibly skinny. (he is not even tempted by bloodworms)
His abdomen is still discolored but looks better than before.

I purchased Stress Guard and I am dosing him daily since he is still very stressed. He's not being exposed to a lot of light, but I am sticking to his routine.

thoughts I am having:
1) should I look into another treatment if he does not improve by midweek? (Kanaplex?)
2) if it is not parasites, could it be dropsy?


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## Rainbo (Nov 23, 2015)

You need to back off the treatments and give him a break from the constant medication. A lot of the medications are very hard on the fish's organs, along with being stressful to them, and by keeping on with them you are doing more harm then good. Keep him in clean, warm, water with at most, and I stress at most, Indian Almond Leaves, no salt, no StressGuard, and see how he does. You can put some plants in the tank to help him feel secure. Do 50% water changes every couple of days. That's it, nothing else for a couple of weeks unless something that you know the medicine can help occurs, such as fungus, Ich, or Columnaris.

I understand the desire to keep trying medicine. I really do. I could have very easily fallen into the trap with my latest rescue, and he'd probably be worse. I bought him because he had severe swim bladder disorder, I started with clean, warm, water and StressGuard for a week. I then tried Epsom Salt. When the salt didn't work I tried PraziPro which also didn't help. I then considered Kanaplex, BUT he didn't show signs of anything that would help and as I said I know how stressful and harmful the medicine can be. I backed off treatment and just concentrated on making him comfortable. He's not completely better.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Rainbo said:


> You need to back off the treatments and give him a break from the constant medication. A lot of the medications are very hard on the fish's organs, along with being stressful to them, and by keeping on with them you are doing more harm then good. Keep him in clean, warm, water with at most, and I stress at most, Indian Almond Leaves, no salt, no StressGuard, and see how he does. You can put some plants in the tank to help him feel secure. Do 50% water changes every couple of days. That's it, nothing else for a couple of weeks unless something that you know the medicine can help occurs, such as fungus, Ich, or Columnaris.
> 
> I understand the desire to keep trying medicine. I really do. I could have very easily fallen into the trap with my latest rescue, and he'd probably be worse. I bought him because he had severe swim bladder disorder, I started with clean, warm, water and StressGuard for a week. I then tried Epsom Salt. When the salt didn't work I tried PraziPro which also didn't help. I then considered Kanaplex, BUT he didn't show signs of anything that would help and as I said I know how stressful and harmful the medicine can be. I backed off treatment and just concentrated on making him comfortable. He's not completely better.


Thanks for the advice. I'm glad you said something, I'm make sure to do so.
It's just tough because at this point the thing that scares me the most is that he still refuses to eat. At this point I think it's pressure from his eye that's doing the trick.. but I'll cut back on things and hope he's just still trying to recover!

I did a water change tonight and next change I'll cut out some of the things I put in tonight!


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Letting you all know we took a step backwards. 
Clove just had another seizure around 5pm today. I went to check on him and this time he was floating at the top, still twitching but he was completely pale. I thought this was going to be it so I was talking to him to calm him down. He nosedived to the bottom, gills and face still twisted, gasping for air. But after a minute of heavy breathing he's back swimming but keeps getting hard twitches and won't stop swimming around. This leads him to getting frightened when he reaches the corner of the tank.

I think he pooped somehow? (he hasn't eaten yet so it might be a pellet but I'm pretty certain all pellets were removed when I attempted to feed him yesterday) But there's also a light string hanging from his abdomen.

I'm leaving him in the dark in my room for 24 hours. But I will be checking on him a lot.

When things have calmed down I will make sure to do a water change with just Prime treated water.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Clove finally ate bloodworms yesterday.

He seems to be more active but is still having trouble swimming without twitching.
Also I think he may be tail biting again, but I'm hoping it is just damage from the heater/hammock and his swimming pattern.


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## cloveflower (Nov 2, 2018)

Clove has been really aggressive and back to his old self.

I cleaned his 5g and am currently cycling it. I hope to add him back next week, since he is rapidly fin biting.
I think he's restless in the 1g so I hope he'll stop biting once he's back in his usual home.

Thanks for everyone's help!


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## Rainbo (Nov 23, 2015)

I'm glad that he's doing well now and back to his feisty self.


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