# Why are Spade Tails so rare now?



## morius (Dec 9, 2012)

Hello everyone!!

So, I've had lots of Betta fish (my second Betta fish lived almost 3 years).

I've owned veils, crowns and double tails. I was recently reading about all the different types there are, and I found out that, apparently, Spade Tails are very rare nowadays.

Supposedly they used to be common some years ago. Does someone know why they suddenly started being so rare?


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## Shirleythebetta (Jan 9, 2012)

Personally I think it could have something to do with being bred to veils or something like that. I have had a couple that started out with a spade and turned out to be veils later on as they aged. I also read somewhere that most spades don't stay spades. I never understood it completly either.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I had one spade tail. Never saw one again truthfully. Bought her as a veil too :lol: maybe since people focused more on other tail types?


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

two words: half moon. seems like no one wants to breed ANY betta without the 180 spread anymore.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I do. :lol: my halfmoon always has tattered fins since they are heavy. I've got some fry from him and a DT geno who won't have the spread. But the longer fins. I'd rather crowntails, plakats, doubletails, spades, etc.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

homegrown terror said:


> two words: half moon. seems like no one wants to breed ANY betta without the 180 spread anymore.


This is sooo true! HMPK and halfmoon doubletails are also two other variations


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## babystarz (Aug 3, 2012)

There are a lot of wild imbellis and mahachai with naturally occurring spade tails, which leads me to believe that the genes for spade tails are plentiful. So if they were to become popular again they would be pretty easy to get. It's just a matter of breeders knowing they would be popular enough to try for, so there would be a market for their fish.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

The 180 spread is more appealing to the masses. Personally, I don't like the heavier finned males but I must say- I am an enormous HMPK fan. I don't know, maybe the symmetry of it?
There is currently a rose colored spade tail in the lps. He was a very attractive color, not red-not pink-not purple. But like a rose. Hint of teal in his color I think. I thought Ludendorff was a spade when I got him, turned out it was early fin melt.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Carter is a DT so I dont care about fins. I think some of my Guppies are Spade Tails.


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## sunstar93 (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm thinking my little yellow betta (not sure if it is a girl or boy anymore lol) is possibly going to grow into a VT...but for now looks like a spade tail lol
(i apologize for the bad pic quality!!!)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

He's a VT, but has a spade-shaped tail when he flares. You can see it a bit in this picture. Would that make him a spade tail?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

http://www.google.com/search?q=spad...0852759556f0d5&bpcl=39650382&biw=1366&bih=556


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## Setsuna (Sep 5, 2012)

I dont think spade tails are rare. Every true blood mahachaiensis (wild type)has it i just recently bought a mahachaiensis and that guy has it. Only that kind of wild type has it. Its not as common for show bettas to have it cause show bettas have been breed so anytimes so pretty much its like they have their own blood line now with their own features such as HM,HMPK,VT, ect......

But yea its very common and not rare. now if the mahachaiensis was to lose that then we know that they are not pure no more maybe due to breeders throwing fighters and show bettas into wildtypes/purebloods natural habitats whitch sadly they do and they dont realize that wat they are doing and it is screwing everything up


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I think we are talking about Splendens here...


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

Mo said:


> I think we are talking about Splendens here...


i was about to clear that up too....usually if people are talking about spade tails, they mean long-finned domesticated splendens, where it's a cultivated trait, rather than a natural form.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Spade tail Guppies are popular in the Orient maybe spade tail Bettas are too?


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

ChoclateBetta said:


> Spade tail Guppies are popular in the Orient maybe spade tail Bettas are too?


i'm afraid that breed trends and popularity tend to be fairly species-specific...for instance, you'd never buy a betta from a breeder advertising that he'll grow an impressive lump on his head, but larger and larger "bumps" are very desirable for flowerhorns. likewise, if you saw a guppy being sold with big bulging eyes you'd wonder what kind of disease or parasite he came with, whereas i don't know anyone who'd sell a black-moor goldfish without telescope eyes.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

The Orient has so many fish Betta Spadetails might be very common there?


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## bryzy (Nov 3, 2012)

The fact that you can't find spade tails in Petstores is because (breeders) see them as veil tails. You only get spades when veils are missed labeled or from a breeder directly. ( A petsmart employee told me this)


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

morius said:


> Hello everyone!!
> 
> Supposedly they used to be common some years ago. Does someone know why they suddenly started being so rare?


You can find them on PK's.. there are always some on AB.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I guess I'm an odd duck. I don't like half moons or the like. To me, they have too much fin to really swim! Crowntails just look messy and shredded. DT usually have genetic problems. or physical deformaties. I love Veiltails and Spades and the like. They are both beautiful and functional. Why would I want a pretty and misrable pet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I guess I'm an odd duck. I don't like half moons or the like. To me, they have too much fin to really swim! Crowntails just look messy and shredded. DT usually have genetic problems. or physical deformaties. I love Veiltails and Spades and the like. They are both beautiful and functional. Why would I want a pretty and misrable pet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My fish swim just fine are not miserable.. and probably get better care than yours. Not all DT's have issues and even the good ones have fins they can manage. VT's have longer tail fins than the HM's do. Maybe we should can them too and just go back to the fighter wild type. And I Love HM's.

You don't like CT's or HM's.. that is fine. To each his own. I'd own a sight hound before I'd be caught dead with a toy dog breed. Nice thing is there is enough variety to keep everybody happy. Dogs and fish..

This is the show fish section.. for people that DO like these fish. Why would we want to own such a common pet as a VT? See. It works both ways..


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm not sure how a VT is plane. Especially when compared to other fish breeds. But, to each his own.

I wasn't saying that your DT had a problem, but that many DT are born with deformaties or genetic issues. Enough that it is actually sited as a problem with the type. This means in the process of creating the subtype, they created the predisposition to these problems. Just as many people like Great Danes, but because their breding, they have heart problems which gives them a shortened lifespan of 6-8 years. To make something weaker genetically in the prosuite of astetics never made much sence to me. I am a woman of simple tastes who likes clean lines over clutter. Just like when I was looking at jewelry and others go crazy over something busy while I always go for something sleak, beautiful, and practical. As I said, Im an odd duck. I can see the beauty in VT & ST. And I want to know why no one else does anymore. When did simple flowing beauty go out of style?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I'm not sure how a VT is plane. Especially when compared to other fish breeds. But, to each his own.
> 
> To make something weaker genetically in the prosuite of astetics never made much sence to me. ... I can see the beauty in VT & ST. And I want to know why no one else does anymore. When did simple flowing beauty go out of style?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We don't breed for genetic weakness.. it just happens. Discus and guppies are both beautiful.. just do nothing for me. I like HM bettas and try to breed the best I can. There are some difficulties.. but we try to improve them. You don't have to like or approve because it is what it is.

And there are plenty of people like you that like the VT's. This web site is swarming with them. This section was created to give those that breed the HM's or other show fish a place to enjoy each others company and interest. It was set up to discuss showing and breeding for shows. It is a place to answer questions of those that have no idea what breeding for shows and showing is about. It is NO place for putting VT's up and dogging the others. That is why we have this ONE section and the VT's have the rest of the forum. Can't stand these fish then stay out of this section and stop saying my fish have a sad life and their fins are cruel. And quit whining about no classes for VT's. Establish a standard and have some of your own shows. It is well and good to complain about no classes.. and it is another to have 20 breeders with 200 fish to enter in a show.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

I didn't come in a particular area of the forum in order to upset you or anyone else. I am on tropicalfishkeeping.com in the middle of the night. I clicked on "New Posts" and saw this thread about Spade Tails. I was curious, so I clicked on it.

All over this forum, I see members telling others that their VT should not be bred because nobody wants them. Don't breed um. Can't show um. It makes me sad that VT and ST get tossed aside as unworthy of breeding and such because they are... what exactly? All anyone says is "out of style" but how can a living being be out of style? It makes no sense to me. And how can a subtype of Betta with more genetic abnormalities be more disarable? What if they were specifically bred for health and positive interactions to humans and community environments? What kind of fish would be created through that kind of breeding?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon (Feb 20, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I didn't come in a particular area of the forum in order to upset you or anyone else. I am on tropicalfishkeeping.com in the middle of the night. I clicked on "New Posts" and saw this thread about Spade Tails. I was curious, so I clicked on it.
> 
> All over this forum, I see members telling others that their VT should not be bred because nobody wants them. Don't breed um. Can't show um. It makes me sad that VT and ST get tossed aside as unworthy of breeding and such because they are... what exactly? All anyone says is "out of style" but how can a living being be out of style? It makes no sense to me. And how can a subtype of Betta with more genetic abnormalities be more disarable? What if they were specifically bred for health and positive interactions to humans and community environments? What kind of fish would be created through that kind of breeding?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



In some countries, like the Netherlands and Australia, they ARE bringing back the VT into shows, they even have show standards for them. Betta Splendens is a beautiful fish no matter what tail type, and I am sorry you feel harassed.

VT was the first step from wild type to all of these other wonderful tail types, and achieving HM or DT or CT would not have come about without the VT gene.

There are plenty of sites that discuss the VT standard, if not actual SECTIONS in shows for the VT.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I didn't come in a particular area of the forum in order to upset you or anyone else. I am on tropicalfishkeeping.com in the middle of the night. I clicked on "New Posts" and saw this thread about Spade Tails. I was curious, so I clicked on it.
> 
> All over this forum, I see members telling others that their VT should not be bred because nobody wants them. Don't breed um. Can't show um. It makes me sad that VT and ST get tossed aside as unworthy of breeding and such because they are... what exactly? All anyone says is "out of style" but how can a living being be out of style? It makes no sense to me. And how can a subtype of Betta with more genetic abnormalities be more disarable? What if they were specifically bred for health and positive interactions to humans and community environments? What kind of fish would be created through that kind of breeding?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is nothing wrong with the VT... just like nothing wrong with mutts. Some people want them... others do not. The reason we say not to breed is bettas often produce a lot of young and finding homes for a lot of fish is not easy. VT's are sold to pet shops for about 12 CENTS each. And the shops don't care enough to take care of them and I'm sure millions die every year on those cups. That right there should tell you their worth. They make great pets and are easy to obtain. Breed them if you want.. just take responsibility for the lives you create.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Alright guys- I think it's time to step back and get back on topic here. 
No hard feelings anywhere, I am hoping.

Bluewind- Honest, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with breeding VTs on this forum. The warnings people give though ARE fair warnings because it can be harder to find homes for VTs, even on this forum. Other than that, I don't think anyone has a problem with it.  It can be frustrating hearing that 50 times, I know.

BasementBettas- I am sure no one meant to offend you. I apologize if anyone did.

The hobby attracts all sorts and it's important to remember we all have our different likes and dislikes when it comes to fish, but we shouldn't give others a hard time for what they are doing.

PS- Has anyone seen the VTs AquaStar has been pumping out lately? :shock: (Yes I'm a fancy colours person, myself). I bet if someone started breeding those kinds a lot of people would buy them as pets.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Alright guys- I think it's time to step back and get back on topic here.
> No hard feelings anywhere, I am hoping.
> 
> Bluewind- Honest, I don't think anyone here would have a problem with breeding VTs on this forum. The warnings people give though ARE fair warnings because it can be harder to find homes for VTs, even on this forum. Other than that, I don't think anyone has a problem with it.  It can be frustrating hearing that 50 times, I know.
> ...


I am not offended. Jut blunt. You want to breed pet bettas.. just be prepared for taking care of the offspring. I say that to anyone wanting to breed ANY kind of fish. 

And this type of discussion does not belong in this section. I have not been here in a while.. got busy after the section was created and come back to find it over run with posts slamming the HM show fish and all the evaluate my pet shop find. Again. Those posts DO NOT belong here. You buy a fish on AB and you want a breeders opinion I will be more than happy to give it. I will discuss the finer points of form or color. Will discuss fill out entry forms or shipping. I do not care to wade through yet another discussion of why we don't have VT classes. And if you ask for my opinion you had better be prepared for the reply.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I am against Pet store fish breeding let me say that they are usually too old to breed. They also carry bad genetics. It might be that Spade Tails are harder ro breed. It might be that like DTs that show ones are to breed.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

That's good to know Olympia. It's not that I have a problem with HM or the like, they are pretty (just not my thing) it's just that I get annoyed when people talk down about VT who are the originals and diserve a little respect. I want them to have SOME kind of standing so they can quit being popped out in those terrible "puppy mill" conditions. Since no one wants them, breeders get away with that stuff atm which makes me sad :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

My Dog came from a breeder using field dogs that are champions. It may be Spades are harder to breed or people dont like them?


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

I actually really love spade tails, and I haven't seen many, you're right. I've never seen one in a pet store, but maybe I am just missing them. I've only owned long finned bettas, so I really want a PK, HMPK or a ST to see how different they are.


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## polukoff (Nov 23, 2011)

They can be hard to find but I have come across quite a few.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I think it's because spade tail is a unstable recessive gene.


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## madmonahan (Aug 26, 2012)

One of our petsmarts has spade tail females, giants male/females all for pet store price. But I'm not very interested in giants, I have heard they are expensive online?


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't care much for spadetails myself.


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