# 10 gallon sorority?



## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

As many of you probably know, I have a new ten gallon tank. I plan to stock it with Bettas (either divided or a sorority... Really leaning towards the sorority) and either way the fish will be in QT, cycled tank, plenty of plants, heater, and filter. My local PetCo sells baby Bettas. Would those be ok for a sorority? Or is the chance too high of buying a male?

Also, what tank mates could there be in a 10 gallon sorority? And how many females could I stock it with? 4? And Marimo Balls?

I have school to go to as well; would it be ok to have a sorority going while I'm at school?


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=123796

Read this sticky. Notice what LittleBettaFish says on the last page. LBF does not recommend you use a 10 gallon for a sorority but you should use a 15-20 gallon tank. the recommend number is 5-7 females. 

I do not recommend sororities at all. They are incredibly stressful environments. The tank must be heavily planted. This means that when you look at the tank from any angle you cannot see through to the other side of the tank at all. Your water perimeters must be absolutely perfect. 100% perfect. If they are slightly off then all of your fish can get sick since they are already in a stressful environment. Yes it is true that in the wild bettas do interact with each other but they also have miles and miles of water to get away from each other. In a tank they have no where to go. Sororities are ticking time bombs. You have to be prepared to see lots of chasing and fin nipping and serious injury or death to your fish. Bettas are extremely unpredictable, even more so with females. Even sororities that are running for years can fall apart in a second. A friend of mine had a sorority set up for a while. It ran peacefully for over two years. He came home from work one day to see that all of the females ganged up on the "alpha" female and she was literally ripped in half. That is the sort of thing you have to be prepared for with a sorority. 

You should not use baby bettas. Besides the fact that one or more could be male, babies are not as hardy as adults and can sick extremely easily. You want a stress free environment for a baby. 

Many recommend contacting a breeder and getting females from the same spawn when you set up a sorority. Doing this does not decrease the chance of the sorority failing.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

I didn't read anything in it saying not to use a ten gallon...


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

+1 to vivianKjean You can use a 10 gallon but that is the MINIMUM! Although, if you can a 20 gallon would be easier. My friend had a sorority in a ten it worked out but when she upgraded to a 20 things were easier on her and the fish.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

I only really have space and money for a ten (especially since I already bought it) Is that ok? 

Also, if the sorority doesn't work out, I was thinking of housing some in kritter keepers. How many gallons is each of the sizes?


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

Is the a typo? that you did not buy the ten? I thought you bought it. 
I don't really know the gallons of kritter keepers but I keep some of my bettas in the extra large. Also if it does not work out why not just divide the ten for them?

Make sure to plant it really well and keep up with water changes.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

I just reread my post and didn't see anything about not buying the ten... And I can only really divide the ten gallon(which I've bought already BTW) 3 ways and there will be five or six females


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

woops sorry that's my bad! I am really not really awake today I had no sleep last night lol. Yeah, then you will need to use the kritter keepers if it does not work.
Good luck!


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks! What live plants would be good


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

well you don't need to do live plants but if you want to awesome! I like 
Java fern
amazon swords
marimo moss balls
Anubias
anacharis
bamboo

these are all I really have on the top of my head I have. I don't really have alot of plants! Make sure to get a good fertilizer. Other threads on this forum should help you out more than I can!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I really want to upgrade that sticky. I have much more to add to it, and some of the points I've brought up, I've changed my mind on. 

A long, long time ago, I did have a sorority in a 10 gallon tank. While it's possible to do so, nowadays, I _advise_ a minimum of 15-20 gallons. However, since it sounds like you are fairly determined to go with the 10 gallon tank, I'll answer your questions. 

For a sorority I would only ever recommend a fishless cycle. Poor water quality not only causes a great deal of stress to fish, but it does seem to weaken their immune system, and make them more susceptible to illness. 

I would not stock a sorority with Baby Bettas from Petco. Not only can they be difficult to sex correctly, but most of the newly purchased 'Baby Bettas' I see on this forum are in pretty rough shape. For a sorority, you want strong and healthy fish. I do recommend young females for a sorority, as they tend to be less aggressive and territorial, but not so young that they are hardly more than fry.

A group of young sisters from a breeder would be my recommendation if at all possible. 

I think 6 females is a good number for a 10 gallon tank. I've had as many as 9-10 females in a 10 gallon tank, but this leaves very little margin for error and you have to have the right combination of females for this level of overstocking to be successful. 

I would _not_ add any further fish to a 10 gallon sorority. In that small a space, there is the risk of the other fish causing stress to your females, or finding themselves bullied by your females. 

IMO, the best plants for a sorority tank, are fast-growing plants that provide dense areas of cover. Examples are plants like ambulia, watersprite, wisteria, hornwort, Amazon frogbit, and vallisneria. There's no reason you can't have a marimo ball in your sorority tank, but there are certainly much better options.


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## micheemak (Aug 8, 2015)

I had 6 bettas set-up in a 10g cube sorority, and recently upgraded to a 20g long because I felt that would work better for the girls. Like LittleBettaFish says, stress can play a factor here. In the 10g, my girls pretty much always had stress stripes and, because it was a cube, the two girls at the bottom of the pile were pretty much forced to stick to the bottom of the tank.

I've had them in the 20g long for a little bit over a week now, but have noticed a tremondous change in them - they each seem to have claimed their own section of tank, the stress stripes are gone, and bullying and fin nipping is almost non-existent. I was lucky in that I was able to use the sponge filter from the cycled 10g tank, and all the water from that tank as well, when I made the transfer so it was well-seeded and cycling it wasn't really an issue.

While my 10g was doing alright and the girls were all managing to live together, they weren't really thriving. For me, the switch to the 20g tank was the best decision I could have made for them.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

+1!!!! sorry guys I really don't know alot about sororities! so thanks for commenting!


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

So would it be better if I had only five females, to leave more room to each of them? Because I'm DEFINITELY going to do a sorority in a ten gallon, but I want to do it the right way. Definitely going with a fish less cycle btw. How long will it take to cycle? Can I use the same test kit as my 5 gallon?


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Also, most of the week I'll be at school. will this be an issue with the sorority?


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## micheemak (Aug 8, 2015)

Do you have any other bettas, Fishy? If you do, you can seed the soroity tank with water from your established tank, which will make the cycle go faster. For example, when I set-up my 20g tank, I used all the water from the 10g tank I was moving the girls out of, and then filled the remainder with treated water I had prepared a few hours earlier. I also used the sponge filter that had been running in their existing tank, as it was already cycled. 

That's a bit of an extreme case; however, depending on the size of your other betta tank (or tanks) you could take 40% from it, seed your 10g, and fill the rest. OR, if it would work for you, you could take a bit less water (say 25%), fill the rest with treated, and take the filter from your established betta tank and use it in the new tank (with new tank filter going into the established tank). This will also make your cycle really quick. I've done this for all my smaller betta tanks (seeded from other betta tanks and just moved a cycled sponge filter into new tank and put new sponge filter in established tank) and I've been able to put Bettas in the tank within 48 hours, never had a fish loss or illness, and they all seem pretty happy and inquisitive. If you don't have an established tank, but have a friend that does, see if you can get some seed water from them.

If you are able to do this, go for it - just make sure that the Betta in your established tank is healthy, no fin rot, etc., as you don't want to carry anything over to the new tank.

As far as stocking the 10g goes, I wouldn't do more than 5. That gives them roughly 2 gallons each ( a bit less when you take into account substrate and decorations). I assume this is a standard 10g and not a cube? If so, they'll have more open water up top, and hopefully you'll be able to avoid what happened in my cube.

Here's a picture of my 20g sorority, right after I moved the girls in. The stress stripes on the one red girl went away within an hour or so, and they've all been fine ever since. I've been adding plants for coverage, and yesterday added three Julii corey cats. There's also an ivory mystery snail in there.










Good luck!


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

micheemak said:


> Do you have any other bettas, Fishy? If you do, you can seed the soroity tank with water from your established tank, which will make the cycle go faster. For example, when I set-up my 20g tank, I used all the water from the 10g tank I was moving the girls out of, and then filled the remainder with treated water I had prepared a few hours earlier. I also used the sponge filter that had been running in their existing tank, as it was already cycled.
> 
> That's a bit of an extreme case; however, depending on the size of your other betta tank (or tanks) you could take 40% from it, seed your 10g, and fill the rest. OR, if it would work for you, you could take a bit less water (say 25%), fill the rest with treated, and take the filter from your established betta tank and use it in the new tank (with new tank filter going into the established tank). This will also make your cycle really quick. I've done this for all my smaller betta tanks (seeded from other betta tanks and just moved a cycled sponge filter into new tank and put new sponge filter in established tank) and I've been able to put Bettas in the tank within 48 hours, never had a fish loss or illness, and they all seem pretty happy and inquisitive. If you don't have an established tank, but have a friend that does, see if you can get some seed water from them.
> 
> ...


I have a friend with a community tank of nonbettas that is cycled... Would that work? Lotte's tank may be cycled; I'll check when my test kit arrives Tuesday


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## micheemak (Aug 8, 2015)

> I have a friend with a community tank of nonbettas that is cycled... Would that work? Lotte's tank may be cycled; I'll check when my test kit arrives Tuesday


I would say yes, unless someone wants to step in with a reason why it won't. I started my first three Betta's with water from my 65g freshwater tropical that was cycled, and didn't have any issues. Again, you would need to make sure the water was from a fully cycled tank, and that there are no illnesses in that tank you could transfer over to your betta tank by mistake.

Anyone else agree/disagree?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Water doesn't cycle so it doesn't matter one way or the other if you use old tank water. It's the filter that cycles by housing the nitrifying bacteria.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Water doesn't cycle so it doesn't matter one way or the other if you use old tank water. It's the filter that cycles by housing the nitrifying bacteria.


Ok thank you! Does the tank look ok? Did I over/undo do the plants?
Edit: that's a little castle and a small barrel thing on the sides btw


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Also, are sororities cruel to the fish? Is it too stressful of an environment for them to live long, happy lives?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I understand you can never have too many plants in a sorority. Shouldn't be able to see front to back or side to side. 

All I can offer is an opinion. I know I wouldn't willingly put my fish in a stressful situation. And from personal experience I know just how unpredictable Betta can be.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

I can't see through  does it look under stocked?


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## charliegill110 (May 19, 2014)

i wouldn't recommend a sorority in a 10 gal...


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

A sorority is going to be a more stressful environment for a female betta than living a solitary life. You are forcing a group of territorial and aggressive fish into fairly close confines. 

Anecdotal evidence would suggest females in sororities do have shortened lifespans. However, there's been no actual scientific studies done that I am aware of, so there's no hobbyist that can say with 100% certainty, keeping a female in a sorority environment is cruel. 

It comes down to your personally weighing up the risks and benefits of a sorority. At this point in time, the risks of a sorority are too great for me to consider setting one up, much as I enjoyed my past sorority tanks. 

I think perhaps I would add a few more plants along the front of the tank, especially the right-hand side. Dense planting not only discourages chasing, but I've found it allows females to carve out individual territories within the tank where they are out of view of the other females. 

Finally, you want seeded media from a cycled tank, not aquarium water. 

If you want a quick*er* cycle, my recommendation would be to take some seeded media from a cycled tank, add it to your filter, and then dose ammonia until the beneficial bacteria are capable of consistently converting around 4ppm (I believe this is the number aimed for with a fishless cycle) of ammonia.


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## micheemak (Aug 8, 2015)

Interesting...I had _*always*_ heard (and practiced) seeding my aquariums with established tank water, as I was told that it helped the new tank cycle faster (along with using an established filter, whenever possible). Now, I'm just back into aquarium keeping in the last 6 months, after taking several years off to raise my family, but it's amazing how common thought changes.

Regardless, I personally will continue seeding with established cycled tank water (unless there are sick fish in the tank) just because it's something I've always done, and it's something that has always worked for me. *knock on wood*


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Most of the time when I hear people having success with seeding tanks using aquarium water from cycled tanks, they are either lightly stocked (or stocked with fish that have a fairly low bioload), are doing more water changes than required (this is often the case when people don't have test kits), or have live plants in their tanks.


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## Innerbeauty (Jul 31, 2014)

I have had a sorority in a 10. I didn't like it. I upgraded them to a 20 Long. (I think the extra floor length gives them more room than the height. And for real plants, they don't have to grow in as much. )

I do like how your tank has low lighting, and you can never have enough plants but you have made a good effort in making it heavily planted! 

I really don't think this will work so well with you being gone a lot. Personal opinion. I stay at home with my kids and the sorority is the focal point of the house, one of us are always watching it and I'm glad. I am up before their lights turn on, and their tank is in total darkness before they do. I'm not trying to discourage you but a sorority can be really special but not if they are not getting a long or stressed out. 

First, introduce them all to the tank at the same time. This way they cannot feel as territorial yet as they haven't established a territory. I had two females get in a fight right off the bat anyway- I took two cups and scooped both apart and let them sit on it for awhile. This takes TIME. Sit there and watch for maybe an hour. Every time the fighters show aggression- cup them. They figure this out. (and I am talking even the beginning of a flare) They'll probably pout for a little bit but they get over it and move on. I use clear SOLO cups for this- they have a very soft rounded edge. Don't scoop so much water it sinks, you want it to float. 

You can also use this "cupping" method with a alpha preying on a weaker. But I had better success by "nipping" the mean female. You can use your finger, but I don't ever want my bettas shying from my finger, so I used a 5" piece of air tubing with the ends touching so it is looped.
*Slightly* touch the girls *tail* fin when she shows signs of attacking, if you are sneaky enough she will think it is "weak girl" nipping her and give up the chase. (Do it so VERY lightly to begin with to the point of you are only slightly touching her, you do NOT want to hurt her at all. ONLY do it when you think she is going to nip the other fish.) Use the side of the air tubing, not the ends. When I did this with my female, she never got scared or stressed, but did stop chasing. She didn't hide or pout, just stopped chasing. She though the weak girl was standing up for herself instead of just being a run away, so she lost interest.
Also, if one of the females is a weaker female, cup her or put her in a floating guppy breeder and let everyone see her for a few hours. They'll forget they ever thought she was a pushover.

This only happened the first couple of days with mine. After that they have all gotten a long very well, they have been healthy. 

I have also found if you keep them entertained they don't have time to be aggressive. Let them follow your finger around, give them a floating ping pong ball, and drop interesting things into their tank to be removed after it gets old to them. With fake plants, you can move them around and they *usually* think it's awesome. Suddenly it's so fun to swim through even tho it's the same stupid plant lol.

I started using a toothbrush to keep the glass clean, and they love chasing it around. (sometimes to the point of being annoying.... when I'm cleaning and don't want to accidentally clout someone, LOL.)

I do think sisters get a long the best- I have two sisters that like to hang out together. (but then, honestly, all of my bettas seem to like each other.)

I think a critter keeper is just under a gallon. But I've never officially measured it.

Females also do better in catappa leaf water. Get them off ebay and put one directly in the tank. It makes the water darker and conditions it.

All that being said, I hope it works out for you and you and your sorority have fun. I also want to say I would never put my girls in a stressful situation more than that first couple of days. I want them to be happy and healthy. If any fish would start showing signs of being unhappy, stressed, or getting sick often, she would need to be removed immediately and given her own quarters. I respect you for saying right off the bat that you would separate them all if it doesn't work and would care for them. 

Sororities can be so much fun and can be so playful and silly it is wonderful when it works out. When I take the homemade baffle off the filter to clean it, I like to watch all 7 of my girl throw themselves in the current. You can almost hear the giggling. Goofballs. :lol:

Sorry for the long winded post.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

sororities are incredibly stressful environments. Sure in the wild bettas come in contact with each other but they also have miles of water to get away from each other. In a tank, they cannot do that. 

I'm not going to discuss your tank size because many knowledgeable people have said that you should not use a 10 gallon. 

You are going to see chasing and nipping and aggression. Even a perfectly set up sorority is a ticking time bomb. A friend of mine had a sorority set up and running for a little over a year. It was a 20 gallon long tank, with 7 females, extremely heavily planted so you could not see through it, the tank had been cycled and holding a cycle for months before he added the fish, he did everything right. For the first year, there were no problems. Sure there was some aggression and fin nipping. One day my friend came home from work to find that all the females ganged up on one of the fish and literally ripped her in half. 

That is the kind of thing you have to be prepared for with a sorority. as Russell said, bettas are extremely unpredictable.


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## artemis35 (Jul 11, 2014)

I almost always stay out of sorority threads, _but_ since you (the OP) _specifically_ asked the question I will offer my very strong opinion.



> Also, are sororities cruel to the fish? *Yes*.
> 
> Is it too stressful of an environment for them to live long, happy lives? *Yes*.


I have no statistics to site, no evidentiary articles to link, just my own, personal opinion as a long-time betta owner and unabashed female betta enthusiast. I always feel such extreme pity for each and every female betta sentenced to a life in a sorority.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Also, are sororities cruel to the fish? Is it too stressful of an environment for them to live long, happy lives?


Personally, I would never advocate a sorority. For the reasons you asked about in your question. It is very stressful, and really not fair to the fish. Why would you pick out the most gorgeous females you can find and throw them into a "lion's den"? They won't stay beautiful for long once they start attacking each other. It may look to be fine for a short while, but once they grow into adults, their naturally agressive side will develope. Thay can be as nasty as males.

So, to answer your question directly, yes, it is cruel, yes it will be very stressful, and no, they won't live long happy lives.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

I thought that ALL fish will establish a pecking order, though, so Bettas wouldn't be too far from that. Will it be as stressful if the tank is cycled and it has plenty of plants?

Also, don't worry, if the aggression gets really really bad, I'll separate them into kritter keepers. I wouldn't continue with the idea if it were causing really bad issues.


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## Innerbeauty (Jul 31, 2014)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> I thought that ALL fish will establish a pecking order, though, so Bettas wouldn't be too far from that. Will it be as stressful if the tank is cycled and it has plenty of plants?
> 
> Also, don't worry, if the aggression gets really really bad, I'll separate them into kritter keepers. I wouldn't continue with the idea if it were causing really bad issues.


 I think that is what counts. Some sororities are compatible and some are not. I also think that most people who say the females cannot be happy have not witnessed a sorority playing together or possibly even had one. As I said before, my sorority does not pick on one another, stays healthy, and happily flutters around the surface a big part of the day. If I ever seen a symptom of unhappiness they would be split up. I do hope it works out for you. ;-)


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## Innerbeauty (Jul 31, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> One day my friend came home from work to find that all the females ganged up on one of the fish and literally ripped her in half.


 I am not trying to fight about this, only asking a sincere question- How does your friend know that the females ganged up on the one? If he walked in to find the fish dead, ripped in half... A dead body with a person standing next to it does not make that person a murderer. I am only asking you to entertain the notion that perhaps, *perhaps *the fish died of other causes and the bettas, being carnivorous fish, pecked at it as they will at any dead species of fish. 

I am not saying bettas are _not_ unpredictable, they can be. But as evidence, this is lacking proof. If you can provide more proof I will humbly submit to it.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Innerbeauty said:


> I think that is what counts. Some sororities are compatible and some are not. I also think that most people who say the females cannot be happy have not witnessed a sorority playing together or possibly even had one. As I said before, my sorority does not pick on one another, stays healthy, and happily flutters around the surface a big part of the day. If I ever seen a symptom of unhappiness they would be split up. I do hope it works out for you. ;-)


Thank you so much for the supportive attitude! I know that some cases aren't as good as yours, and is it necessary to point out the dangers of the sorority. But I do appreciate the positivity!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Unfortunately, when their sororities fail people don't come back on here and say "guess what?" They just quietly disappear.


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## lookimawave (Feb 27, 2012)

I had a 29 planted (maybe hot heavily enough) sorority fail a few years back and I haven't tried it again. I don't remember exactly but I think I had 7 girls. It was fine for about 5 months then I found one girl in bad condition and hospitalized her but it was too late. Then a few weeks later another girl fell victim. At that point I moved and rehomed the whole sorority to someone with more plants and a larger tank. I think sibling females have a better chance of getting along.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Unfortunately, when their sororities fail people don't come back on here and say "guess what?" They just quietly disappear.


You hit the nail on the head, Russell.


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Also, don't worry, if the aggression gets really really bad, I'll separate them into kritter keepers. I wouldn't continue with the idea if it were causing really bad issues.



But what if you're at school when it happens? You need to be home and able to watch them all the time to catch it before it starts.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Strawberry12 said:


> But what if you're at school when it happens? You need to be home and able to watch them all the time to catch it before it starts.


I'm sure that many people who start sororities have work/school/someplace to be. And I thought the point of it being heavily planted was to bread up fighting if you can't be there? Also, do you think starting the sorority on a weekend would help, to keep an eye on them the first few days?


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> I'm sure that many people who start sororities have work/school/someplace to be. And I thought the point of it being heavily planted was to bread up fighting if you can't be there? Also, do you think starting the sorority on a weekend would help, to keep an eye on them the first few days?


Bettas and most fish definitely know when someone is near and will behave differently when you aren't watching...I have to say, that if something is going to go bad, it's probably going to be when you aren't there. I'm home the vast majority of the time. I leave for school for a couple hours once a week. When I first did my divided tank, I thought my dividers were fine because there were no breaches the whole week...sure enough, I leave for class for about an hour and a half and come back to two bettas in the same space. :roll: 

Same thing happened again when I left for 5 days to go on vacation. And in that case...the divider had been up for months. Most of my trouble happens when I don't have my eye on them. They love to surprise you like that.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm going to say one more thing. 

I highly suggest that you just do a divided tank. Not a sorority. 

A sorority should only be attempted by an experienced fish keeper. I saw your other thread and how you were confused on how a tank to could cycle in 2 days only to find out that you did not have an ammonia source. 

Please, for the safety of your fish, just do a divided tank and attempt a sorority when you have a few years under your belt.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> I'm going to say one more thing.
> 
> I highly suggest that you just do a divided tank. Not a sorority.
> 
> ...


I love my divided tanks! It is way less stressful than a sorority. One of my friends has a sorority, although it is pretty you have no idea how much work it takes. Everything needs to be perfect because the fish are already in a stressful environment and they do not need more stress. I personally don't have a sorority for these reasons. I don't want to be gone and come home to a blood bath.

If you really want a sorority you can do one! I just would have at least one more year of fish keeping to atempt one. :-D

Good luck!


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

^^I love, love, LOVE my divided tank and it is 100 times easier and more relaxing than my sorority!


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

I too would suggest a divided tank instead of a sorority. You will still need to be very careful in cycling the tank, but it will be easier and less stressful on the bettas.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

VivianKJean said:


> I'm going to say one more thing.
> 
> I highly suggest that you just do a divided tank. Not a sorority.
> 
> ...


I hope you understand that cycling is something that I'm still trying to learn. I've read countless threads on sororities, but cycling is just something I'm fairly inexperienced with. That's why I was reaching out and trying to ask questions.

If the sorority shows too much stress, I'll seperate it. I simply want to see what it's like, but if the fish are getting too nipped at, I'll stop.

I know the success rate is low, but the fact that there IS one gives me hope.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Also, what is there difference between an experienced fish keeper and a fairly new one who is doing their research and all that they can?


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## JayM (Aug 4, 2013)

I have a sorority in a 33g tank, heavily planted, with driftwood, anubiua, java fern/sword. Also has 2 BN & 4 corydorys.
There are 7 ladys in and touch wood, no issues. I breed myself so number of ladys varies from 5 - 11. I am Self employed and work from home so keep a close ey on them. They have chases but nothing nasty.
We started with fish & breeding in 2013 & I still learn every day.
Good luck.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Also, what is there difference between an experienced fish keeper and a fairly new one who is doing their research and all that they can?


An experienced fishkeeper will probably notice the very first signs of trouble while a new fishkeeper may not notice until it's gone too far. Just like experienced fishkeepers recognize the difference between fin rot and fin biting but the inexperienced don't. Even though they've Googled the heck out of fin rot they still diagnose and unnecessarily treat fin biting as fin rot.

The best example is Betta and tank mates. No Betta "suddenly" attacks other fish; there are warning signs that are missed that would have saved lives if recognized as such.

I've been keeping firsh for 55+ years. Dexter had been in a community tank for nearly two years with no issues. Then one day I noticed he was following a Rasbora. I watched for several minutes and realized he could not be distracted from "following." When the Rasbora darted into some Subwassertang, Dexter immediately fixated on another Rasbora. So I removed him from the community and put him in his own 2.5 until I could upgrade.

Most beginning fishkeepers, despite research, would not have recognized the nuances that meant this was deliberate, deadly stalking and not just casual, harmless curiosity. They would have probably left Dexter in the tank and been one of those people who woke up the next morning (stalking is more fruitful in the dark) to several missing/dead/stressed fish.

That's the difference. An experience fishkeeper knows almost by instinct when something is _going_ wrong; a new fishkeeper doesn't usually realize it until it's_ gone_ wrong. It's the same with all of us. I would never have recognized Dexter's behavior as anything to worry about when I first started fishkeeping.

Book learning is great and necessary; it's where I obtained my initial knowledge. But practical experience teaches in the things that no amount of book learning can.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> An experienced fishkeeper will probably notice the very first signs of trouble while a new fishkeeper may not notice until it's gone too far. Just like experienced fishkeepers recognize the difference between fin rot and fin biting but the inexperienced don't. Even though they've Googled the heck out of fin rot they still diagnose and unnecessarily treat fin biting as fin rot.
> 
> The best example is Betta and tank mates. No Betta "suddenly" attacks other fish; there are warning signs that are missed that would have saved lives if recognized as such.
> 
> ...


+A million to this

I studied everything humanly possibly for about 7 months before getting ONE betta, and after getting him and the others, still found that I needed help with most of the things that I had read about anyway.

Book experience does not equal hands-on experience in the slightest, really.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Reccka said:


> <<snip>>
> 
> Book experience does not equal hands-on experience in the slightest, really.


I think any person who learned dog grooming or how to "train" dogs from a book or online will attest to that.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

That's the main reason I want to do a sorority. To observe first hand and experience a sorority. To gain experience.


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## charliegill110 (May 19, 2014)

you really should find a different way to "gain experience", i think you would be much better off doing a divided tank, rather than a sorority.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Also, what is there difference between an experienced fish keeper and a fairly new one who is doing their research and all that they can?


The actual hands on experience and number of years as an aquarist is the difference. I am speaking in general here as an overall fishkeeper. Not bettas in particular.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> That's the main reason I want to do a sorority. To observe first hand and experience a sorority. To gain experience.


But you have many people here who DO have the experience, and many years under their belts, who are trying to help you and give you good advice. I myself have over 40 years.
We have very honestly and clearly advised that a sorority is a bad idea. 
Now that you have this information, why would you still want to try this? If you are concerned about the welfare of fish you would not attempt this and do the divided tank instead.


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Also, what is there difference between an experienced fish keeper and a fairly new one who is doing their research and all that they can?


Experience. I can read all I want about fixing a car, but until I actually have to *do* it, it doesn't matter. 

That's why they make you do labs in science class.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

There are people who, despite warnings, have to stick their finger in a light socket and experience the shock before they're convinced. ;-)


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> There are people who, despite warnings, have to stick their finger in a light socket and experience the shock before they're convinced. ;-)


Is this meant to be an insult? I don't think it's that bad of a thing to have to see something to believe it.


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## charliegill110 (May 19, 2014)

yes it is that bad of a thing when it involves anything that is alive. it would be very cruel to the fish for you to start a sorority.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Just to make it clear, I would seperate them if there were signs of unhappiness


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Just to make it clear, I would seperate them if there were signs of unhappiness


If you separate them NOW in a divided tank, instead of later it will keep the fish SAFE. a fish in a sorority can be fine one minute, and in the next close to death or dead from the others attacking it. As people have tried to tell you, you cannot be watching your tank every minute, day in and day out. Bettas are unpredictable. Don't play with the lives of innocent fish.


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

Another example, would you prefer to have your knee surgery done by a surgeon who 

a) has done 2,000 knee surgeries successfully

or

b) has just studied it a lot, and you're his first patient ever.


I'm just not sure you understand the severity of the situation. there may well not be any "unhappiness", just a blood bath. you come home and there are pieces of beloved fish scattered around the tank. Is it *really* worth the risk?


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> There are people who, despite warnings, have to stick their finger in a light socket and experience the shock before they're convinced.
> 
> Or jump off a cliff........lol.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

My main issue with it is that I have already bought most of the supplies, and don't want it to go to waste. This may sound selfish, but it's the truth.

All of you have kinda made me feel bad about myself for wanting to try something new. I don't think I'll be doing the sorority, but can you please not be so harsh about it?


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

The fact that there had been SUCCESSFUL cases made me want to do it, fyi


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

I haven't seen any harshness here, just the realistic, blunt truth without sugarcoating. 

I've also never seen a successful sorority last longer than a year.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Strawberry12 said:


> I haven't seen any harshness here, just the realistic, blunt truth without sugarcoating.
> 
> I've also never seen a successful sorority last longer than a year.


To someone as young as myself, it comes across as harshness


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

That's life.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Keep in mind that I am still pretty much a kid, so I don't handle things as well as some might expect me to


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Strawberry12 said:


> That's life.


Do you realize that I am just barely old enough to have an account on this website, and I did in fact ask for advice before I ran out and bought a ton of fish to stick in my tank?


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

I realize that I did ask for advice, and that was what was given to me. But I am human and I do have a high sensitivity level. I'm not asking for a pity party, and I'm not expecting to get one, but I'd appreciate it if people took into account my feelings


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Calling me stupid enough to jump off a cliff isn't helping, FYI


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## Innerbeauty (Jul 31, 2014)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> Also, what is there difference between an experienced fish keeper and a fairly new one who is doing their research and all that they can?


 I hadn't been paying attention to the fact you are completely new to bettas. While I love my sorority and wish you well with trying one someday, I would have to say you do need to start with another one. (single) Put in some shrimp and that will give you pretty good idea of what a betta looks like when they are happy, annoyed, protective, stressed, and angry just by it interacting with the shrimp.

Research and experience can never be the same thing in any field. It is very admirable and responsible of you to do the research in the first place. That is the first step anyone should make. (and seldom do.) Thumbs up to on that!!!

RusselThe****zu was not insulting you. Merely pointing out, I think, that with a sorority one mistake can cause an irreversible pecking order change that can create the crash of everything. For a sorority, I do wish you were home during the day to keep an eye on things. They are wonderful to have with the proper attention, perfect for a family (like ours) or a retired person.
Surely you, who obviously is not a "follower", the type of person who makes discoveries because they didn't just take someone's word for something, will know how it feels to not take someone's advice too see what will happen, and then end up doing this::frustrated:
Do you want to do that with your fishes lives?


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## charliegill110 (May 19, 2014)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> My main issue with it is that I have already bought most of the supplies, and don't want it to go to waste. This may sound selfish, but it's the truth.
> 
> All of you have kinda made me feel bad about myself for wanting to try something new. I don't think I'll be doing the sorority, but can you please not be so harsh about it?



return whatever you bought, or re sell it, or trade fish supplies with someone, or just donate it. or find a way to use it now. what did you buy for a sorority that you feel you can't use on a regular fish tank?


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

And it took 7 pages for you to concede that you weren't going to do it.

The fish won't appreciate that you tried for the experience. The fish won't appreciate that you're doing your best. All the fish knows is "I was thrown in a 10x20 rectangle with other things that want to kill me and I can't escape". 

Things. Can. Die. And when a living thing could die, i'm not one to sit here and say "oh sweetie that's great that you want to try!". I'm going to do my best to make you realize the gravity of the situation.


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

And what did you buy that's "sorority-only"? You can use plants, filters, a tank, for a regular community tank or a divided one.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Strawberry12 said:


> And it took 7 pages for you to concede that you weren't going to do it.
> 
> The fish won't appreciate that you tried for the experience. The fish won't appreciate that you're doing your best. All the fish knows is "I was thrown in a 10x20 rectangle with other things that want to kill me and I can't escape".
> 
> Things. Can. Die. And when a living thing could die, i'm not one to sit here and say "oh sweetie that's great that you want to try!". I'm going to do my best to make you realize the gravity of the situation.


Which is why I'm not doing it... I thought we had come to agree on that! You are literally making me feel awful about myself. Can't we just accept that I DIDN'T go through with it and it was merely an idea? You must've made mistakes when you first started out too, or at least had the wrong idea on something


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## Fishybitty (Dec 29, 2012)

Soak up all the information you can and learn from it  (and shrug off any harsh or sarcasm)


Personally I've done a sorority twice(haven't done one since), unless you have time and patience id suggest against it. (especially starting out)


I got a male betta right now, and honestly I enjoy the simplicity of it.


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Fishybitty said:


> Soak up all the information you can and learn from it  (and shrug off any harsh or sarcasm)
> 
> 
> Personally I've done a sorority twice(haven't done one since), unless you have time and patience id suggest against it. (especially starting out)
> ...


Thank you for the kind words  I'm happy to be getting good advice, but I don't like the attitude that comes along with it.


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## Fishybitty (Dec 29, 2012)

Totally understandable. I am the same way.


(It is hard to tell emotion through a pc. ;-))


Anyway what are your plans now do you think?


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Probably dividing the tank up


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## Fishybitty (Dec 29, 2012)

Oh well right on! 
you said a 10 gallon right?

you could possibly do like a school of pygmy cories (if you don't do divided)


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## FishyOfTheOpera (Jul 13, 2015)

Im not really a huge fan of other fish... I prefer Bettas

How many ways do you think I can divide it?


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

I like to divide my 10 gallon tanks for two bettas but 3 sections, with the 3rd being a small section in the middle for the filter and heater. Just in case someone decides to jump or a divider fails, they won't immediately be with the other fish.


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## Fishybitty (Dec 29, 2012)

Oh ok np then, 

and yeah ^^^^ I agree with that...i've seen people do that. 



has some added security


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## charliegill110 (May 19, 2014)

i've never divided a tank, but i've thought about how i would do it, if i were to want a divided tank. 

when using a 10g i'd want maximum swimming space, and i feel like having that 3rd middle area is a "waste" (as long as its for 2 bettas that have no trouble swimming. if one does have trouble swimming i'd disregard my idea, and go ahead and keep the filter and heater in the middle area). so if i was going to do it i would use aquarium silicone and glue the divider in place (only divided 2 ways and i think i would only use the glue on the sides.) its a semi permanent thing. no fish can slip past but if you decide you don't want a divided tank anymore i believe the silicone can be scraped off with a razor. it it just takes a bit of elbow grease. 

as for the craft mesh i would use black (i've heard it makes it harder for the fish to see through) and there are 2 types of craft mesh, one with larger holes and one with very small holes, i'd use the one with small holes, 2 sheets thick with the second sheet cut so the holes are "covered" on the first sheet. 

and i would think about gluing silk plants to it, to further prevent the fish from seeing each other.

edit*

OH and i would glue or sew a 1-2 inch section of mesh on the top (so it would make a T shape) to prevent fish from jumping sides.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

I have my 10 gallon divided set up with three compartments - the middle one is just large enough to fit the heater & filter. I have the dividers in a V shape (point of the V towards the front of the tank, if that makes sense) to maximize the space in the betta compartments.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> My main issue with it is that I have already bought most of the supplies, and don't want it to go to waste. This may sound selfish, but it's the truth.
> 
> All of you have kinda made me feel bad about myself for wanting to try something new. I don't think I'll be doing the sorority, but can you please not be so harsh about it?


You don't need to waste the supplies you already bought. Trust me, you'll find other ways to use them. Just use them with a divided tank. What you need is the partitions and there are several threads on here that will give ideas.

If we seemed harsh, please understand that many of us have seen so many bettas die for no good reason, both on this site and with our friends who are local to us. It is devastating to see so many bettas die needlessly, and we are thinking about the bettas when we comment. So many people think of them as disposable pets, to be used as decoration, and only get them out of selfishness to make themselves feel good. These are living, sentient beings that deserve no less a good life than any human.


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## Innerbeauty (Jul 31, 2014)

FishyOfTheOpera said:


> You are literally making me feel awful about myself.


 Don't feel awful about yourself. Aspiring and dreaming and being excited about fish or pets or life is not a bad thing. You had a dream, you have been researching, you knew what you wanted. You have now collected all the information and for the best interest of future pets you decided against it. You deserve a T-shirt that says you made a good decision! But never be sorry you asked, never be sorry you thought about it. You were not intentionally going about something you knew would cause harm. (i.e. I want to shave a cat!!! How should I do it??!!! <<--- that would knowingly be harm) You wanted to give the best care for something, but you found out it just couldn't work out. You are a good person that is going to be an _awesome_ betta keeper! :welldone:


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## lilyrazen (Oct 25, 2009)

I felt the same way as you like 4 years back when I wanted a sorority too. I got it all set up, with one girl who I already had and about 4 more that were new. It ended badly, and the girl I had (Flower) died within a day (I was SO SAD) and I had to cup the rest and bring them back. I traded those girls for two cute halfmoon boys and I split the 10g instead. I still consider that one of the biggest mistakes I've made regarding fishkeeping!

Don't feel bad! Everyone just wants to make sure you end up with live fish, and not a bloodbath (and the guilt/sadness that accompanies it). I'm happy you reconsidered and I think you're going to be a great betta parent. Don't be discouraged- we all have ideas that don't work out!


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## betta2404 (Sep 3, 2015)

*don't give up, and stick to your plan if you have one*

Hello FishyOfTheOpera,

I noticed you have received a lot of negativity on you post regarding this issue. People here are like betta fish as well lol. Harsh but i would like to think they mean well. Anyway....

Your plan on a sorority tank is NOT impossible. Few have done done it and had success over it. But, i warn you tho, you got to have the patience and dedication and don't give up on your bettas.

What makes me say this? Im making a fraternity tank. All male bettas in one tank. Check my out my thread and read my experience. Be warned it has received a lot of negativity and my experience on aquatics has been scrutinized as well. I believe succumbing to negativity will hinder your future advances in the hobby. But i believe proper conditioning of your bettas before putting them together is the key. 

I will soon update my thread with my experience and a video hopefully to prove that nothing is impossible.

CHEERS~

p.s - if you decide to pursue a sorority and things gets nasty you should be quick to respond and give them proper care. Thats your responsibility


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## Julie7778 (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm glad you decided not to do a sorority. Sorry about people being harsh. But, you have to understand for lots of us on here fish is something we are passionate about. For us, it's not "just a fish" I'm not saying it is for you, but when you said you wanted to experiment it gave off the vibe that you don't care for the lives of them. but I'm glad we all got passed that. It's great you came and got the opinions of others before starting it. 

As for your divided tank, you should only be keeping 2 bettas. That's 5 gallons for both and they'll be happy. Sometimes breeders keep more sections, but as you want them as pets it'll be best to have 2 in there. I personally never did the 3 sections with a filter and heater in the middle, but I think it's a good idea. When I had mine I kept the water level low so they couldn't jump and it was planted. Next to the divider. 

Good luck  if you have any questions go ahead and message me.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

I second Julie7778's opinion. It's the best thing for your bettas. A divided tank will keep them safe and healthy. Please post some pics once you get it set up!


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