# Hole in the head? (A little pic heavy, sorry)



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

So my little guy No Name has had something "off" with his head since I got him.. and it's been slowly getting worse. At first I thought he was just losing scales because he likes to get under and around things and would constantly get stuck to the point where I had to rescue him. But I've pretty much cleared out his tank a while back and only has 2 smaller plants, bare bottom and 2 soft cups with him. But it seems his head has been getting worse.
The spots that I believe were/are missing scales have grown a lot since I've had him, they are lighter in color and seem to have this shiny look to it in the right light. But lately I've noticed some bright/blood red spots in some of the areas. 
He's currently in a 2 gal (for his own safety..), 78*, water change I do 100% every 3-4 days to keep his water a tad bit cleaner due to this issue, without over doing it. Water conditioner and I add in a few drops of stress coat, and I'm in the process of drying some oak leaves for tannins. He used to be so very very active, but last few days he's been just hanging out at the top. I'm not too concerned with his behavior, but it could have a part in it, I don't know.. no other change in him that I can see other then what I listed.
The only thing I could think of is something that is more commonly seen in larger cichlids, hole in the head disease. I can't seem to find any pictures really of a betta with it. I am wondering if any of you have pics or have seen it in bettas and can help me out some? If anyone has any pictures of a betta with this disease so I could compare it, it would be great. I know this is a semi-rare disease.. but since he had the beginnings of this when I got him, who knows how the breeder had him prior to bringing them to my LFS.

The closest picture I could find of what it looks like is on this oscar.. it looks just like that, but closer together are the areas in question. I can't get an up close pic of No Name, but the pics I do have you can see the area in question.. this was taken last week prior to me noticing the red spots. (Even still, the red is very small). Thanks guys.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Myates. So this is your suicidal guy, eh? He sounds like a real character and he's super handsome too. He's got such unique coloring. 

Couple of questions:
Has he been getting any skinnier despite eating (wasting away)?
Any flashing and rubbing? Like maybe when he was extra hyper those first few days? Do you think rubbing along the gravel to relieve an itch may be why he would get stuck in so many places?

There are a lot of things that can cause ulcerations like this. If he had a skin parasite such as costia, they could cause ulcerations just by multiplying in number. But they are very itchy so he would be rubbing and flashing a LOT. Columnaris can also cause ulcerations that are rimmed with red. Usually it would be accompanied by a loss of appetite and heavy mucoid production, though. The excess mucous is the stringy cottony stuff we see in columnaris. And if he had an injury that caused some scale loss, that injury could have gotten infected. And then there's mycobacteria, or TB. I doubt that is the cause though but it CAN cause ulcers like this.

First, I would go ahead and get him into 1 tsp of aquarium salt and raise the temp to 80 degrees or even 82. Any external parasites will have their life cycle significantly sped up by the heat. If you think it's possibly external parasites/protozoans, then I would recommend treating him with Seachem ParaGuard. I think that would be the best medication for a parasite problem. It's easier to dose than the Parasite Clear tabs.

As long as you don't think it's gone internal, I would just treat for parasites right now and let the AQ salt ward off any bacterial infection. I'd like to see if his behavior changes at all after treatment. If he's still listless and "off" then give him a few days with just clean water and AQ salt to recover and then we'll see what to do next. 

I do know it's not hole-in-the-head disease. To the best of my knowledge, bettas aren't susceptible to the kind of internal parasites that cause HitH disease. Cichlids and discus are, though. Oscars seem to get it a lot when they are kept in poor water, which they often are. People don't realize they are such messy eaters. Poor buggers.

Okay, I hope this helps you, Myates. Let me know if any of the things I described might fit what's going on with the little guy. If it doesn't seem like any are a possible cause, then I'll hit the books some more. He's really a charmer, I just love that tail of his. Hang in there! We'll get this licked in no time.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Hi Myates. So this is your suicidal guy, eh? He sounds like a real character and he's super handsome too. He's got such unique coloring.
> 
> Thank you.. wish the neon blue coloring showed up in pics hehe. And yeah, he has personality and I love it.
> 
> ...


Thank you again (can't say that enough), I will go ahead and QT him in a 1 gal and start treatment this morning. Looked over just now and he's sleeping on the bottom of the tank.. sigh, I miss my zoomie guy =(

His coloring is different.. top half of his body is blue, bottom half is red.. the red on his fins look so much like someone just painted it on him.. then it's metallic blue (looks black in pic) then white and clear.. I put down a beautiful pastel colored steel blue/mustard gas because No Name had "spunk" to him and was different from all the rest. And he has proved he is definitely one of a kind. 

Thank you again.. time to stop being weepy and go take care of my little guy.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Haha, he really does sound like a character. I can picture him bopping along the bottom of his tank, "do de do do, whaa? I'm stuck! Help me!" *freed* "Thank you! Do de do do, whaaa?"

Okay, so it's most likely not costia or any of the "itchy" external parasites. All the parasites I know of that could cause ulcerations have to be in such large numbers that the fish would be in obvious discomfort, flashing and rubbing. So strike anything I said about treating with ParaGuard. I doubt he has columnaris or TB so let's go ahead and treat this is as a wound or injury that became infected, possibly before you got him.

If you can find the Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated Pellets, that would be good. Those are the best way to treat internal bacterial infections, which he may have since he has become lethargic and depressed. For the external infection (the ulcers), we can continue him in AQ salt only or we can treat him with Maracyn I and II to cover both gram negative and positive bacteria. It's up to you if you want to treat him with such strong meds right now. I think the salt should be enough for the external wound but it's totally up to you. 

For the pellets, if you can find them, soak them in garlic juice.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you.. yeah he is a character. He used to love after water changes, because there would be drops of water towards the top of his tank and he'd jump for them lol.

Okay, I didn't start the parasitic meds since I had to wait until today to get down to the LFS. Definitely don't want to start anything heavy for now, will continue with the salt and see how he is by the end of that treatment. Thank you!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, sounds like a plan. Good luck! I'll definitely be thinking of the little guy. He's a cutie all right.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Quick update. I discussed this with DarkMoon17 and she suggests going ahead with General Cure and nixing the AQ salt. If you can find a product called Kanamycin, she suggests using that. You can look for Seachem Kanaplex, it is a kanamycin product that can be mixed with food. Are there any other symptoms such as degrading fins, foggy eyes, or pale stomach?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I'll have to order all that.. only thing I can find in my LFS and Walmart is Quick Cure and bettafixes.. grr. 
His top fin was a tiny bit curled when I got him and it's been getting a bit shorter, curled up more and ragged looking. No black or red to it.. white and a cream colored white. Looks like it curled up, but one tiny part where it is still straight. 
Does not look like rot, he has had water changes each week (2 gal unfiltered) (1 50% and 1 100% per week, but last couple of weeks, 2 100% per week) and his fins have never been torn.
Eyes are fine, his belly is a tad bit pale right below the gills, but seems he's been growing some larger green colored scales on his belly and gills so hard to tell. 

Should I stop the salt until I can get the medication? Will take a week or so before it is delivered.. I have surgery in the morning, and the closest Petco/Petsmart is 2 hours away, so not going any time soon.

He's a little more active, but the red has become more pronounced, which probably is because of the salt. He's still eating, yesterday he was down to 1 pellet.. today he ate 3. So I have no idea what's up with that, but as long as he is eating then I'm happy. He has never been bloated, nor even have a large belly, always so active so his food was digested quickly. 

I appreciate all you are doing, and Darkmoon now as well. Thank you both very much.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm glad he has no other symptoms like bloating, that's good news. Yeah, stop the salt for now. It sounds like it may just be irritating the spots on his head anyway. DarkMoon thought it might be natural marbling so we'll see. I'm not so sure but she has more experience with marble bettas than me. We definitely suggest the General Cure just to be on the safe side. The Kanaplex would help too in case he has a mild internal infection. But for that, be aware you'll have to mix it with food and feed it to him that way. That's a bummer your LFS doesn't carry General Cure. 

Do you know what your pH is? Sometimes high pH can cause fins to curl. Can you think of any chemical reasons why he might be acting lethargic? High nitrates, change in water chemistry?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Head is still the same, the redness has gone down quite a bit. He's eating fully and swimming a lot more. 
It's definitely not marbling, as from the side you can see the shiny patches of skin vs. scales. Wish it was something that simple though. 

Unsure the pH.. but shouldn't be high as CT has no curling of fins whatsoever. (I got CT from Walmart, No Name along with Xander who also has bad top fin curling I got at a LFS, so assuming it was their water or breeder's water that caused it since they both had it prior to me getting them.)

I'll go ahead and finish treatment with cure (not salt), and if nothing changes and he continues to eat fully and be active, all I feel I can do is just keep his water a tad cleaner and watch him.

I swear this guy is going to be the death of me one day with all his stunts and this unknown issue. I'm just waiting for the day he figures out how to unhatch his lid and jump out.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Myates. I'm sorry to hear he hasn't fully recovered but at least he hasn't gotten worse. 

I'm glad the redness did go down. I wonder if there is something suppressing his ability to regenerate scales? Like some congenital hormone thing. But as long as he is acting healthy and eating, that's a good sign.

I heard you had surgery? I hope your recovery is swift and painless.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks! I am back to about 100% now =) Now I don't have to worry each morning if I'll make it to the end of the day. 

Still no scales, didn't eat his dinner tonight.. he took one pellet in, about 10 seconds later spit it out. About 30 seconds after that he touched it with his mouth, but then didn't try anymore. I tried giving him a new pellet, tried to bop it around the water which usually catches their attention to eat.. nothing. Just went off and ignored me and the pellets.
He's not that active, sometimes he is clamped up a little.. but will come to life when he sees his neighbor girl usually. 

It looks as if he has lost some scales around his gills.. right where they start at on the cheeks, as well as on one side at the back edge it looks white and turning the color of what his head looks like where the scales are missing.

Wondering if it is something internal.. his poop is normal, still not bloated, nor thin in any way. No unusual bumps on his body, coloration still normal.

Silly fish.. wish they could talk sometimes to tell us what they feel =(


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

There is a good chance you are right and he has an internal bacterial infection. Since he's reluctant to eat, we can't use the most effective treatment, which is feeding medicated food. :/ Otherwise I would recommend Seachem Kanaplex or the Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated Pellets. Hmm. I would still recommend Kanaplex. It can be used as a solution, too, although it won't be as effective as medication taken internally. Unfortunately, Kanaplex usually has to be ordered online. If you don't want to do that, then I recommend Maracyn I and II combined. I also recommend soaking his food in garlic. It will act as both an appetite stimulant and an immune booster.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks.. I'll go on a shopping spree today, have to order the Maracyn online as well- darn small town/country living!


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