# DOA policy and priority shipping, no fish refund, no replacement.



## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

Just an hour ago, i checked my paypal account and one of my customer has opened a dispute against me for 3 pairs hm and 2 pairs ct he recently purchased from me 2 weeks ago. He wanted the full refund back regarding the 2 hm pairs and 1 pair ct who died.
I mean when you are a buyer, do you read the seller policy regarding shipping and DOA case before you decide to buy any fishes from him ??
That customer live in St Paul, MN, how cold is it over there ?? I know it is cold.
Why would you choose priority shipping and add no heat pack when you buy so much betta and knowing that it is so cold where you live ?? That customer is certainly a fool.
The night before i ship his fishes to him, i even remind him again if he need few heat packs and he said NO. 
The box took 3 days to get to his place then when usps agent deliver the package, he was not home to get it, so the agent took it back to his local post office and stay one night there. He deliver the next day and that guy finally got his fishes.
He took pictures of the dead and emailed me but what he doesn't know or he may forgot that my DOA policy doesn't apply to priority shipping. If he has add few heat packs, i am sure all his fishes would have made it and even stay an extra day in his local post office. 
He even sent an email to aquabid and asked them to email me so he will get his refund back, i think he is dreaming.
He won't get anything from paypal either. 
Not only me but i think most of the sellers from aquabid don't guaranty live fish for priority shipping.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Those poor fish.. what an idiot..  I wouldn't give him any refund either..

Maybe as a breeder you should make it mandatory for people to purchase heat packs in the colder months if they live in the north? Just a thought.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree with Olympia. I wouldn't ship fish knowing they weren't going to make it.. if you thought he needed the heat pack you should have insisted or refused to sell. He was irresponsible or perhaps ignorant in thinking it was necessary but you felt it was necessary and he was foolish and you chose to ship anyway... IDK what aquabid will do but imho there is responsibility on the seller's part to provide shipment which is at least likely to result in live fish, and the fact you thought the shipping was foolish means that part wasn't upheld (it was freezing a few weeks ago). They had 0 chance in 3 days of freezing temperatures none the less the overnight stay.

As a side note I think proper postage should be required and customers shouldn't be allowed to choose to cut cost in shipping live animals but that's another issue..


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

callistra said:


> I agree with Olympia. I wouldn't ship fish knowing they weren't going to make it.. if you thought he needed the heat pack you should have insisted or refused to sell. He was irresponsible or perhaps ignorant in thinking it was necessary but you felt it was necessary and he was foolish and you chose to ship anyway... IDK what aquabid will do but imho there is responsibility on the seller's part to provide shipment which is at least likely to result in live fish, and the fact you thought the shipping was foolish means that part wasn't upheld (it was freezing a few weeks ago). They had 0 chance in 3 days of freezing temperatures none the less the overnight stay.
> 
> As a side note I think proper postage should be required and customers shouldn't be allowed to choose to cut cost in shipping live animals but that's another issue..



Well, really i don't know what to do in this kind of situation. I sell betta and i sell a lot of betta but maybe some may think it is all about the $$ which is not really true. There was one guy i refused to ship his fishes to him because he live in NY and that was kind like the same situation and he gave me negative feedback. I am a seller but i also want to have a good feedback so other will trust my services, but oh well....


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I've never bought a betta from Aquabid without Express for that very reason. The buyer is at fault in this, and I don't see how any of this can be found to be your fault. All the adds I've looked at have the same DOA policy so that certainly can't be held against you.


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## bettasusa (Nov 1, 2011)

I like to add that if I ship betas that heat packs are always included in the flat shipping rate that I charge. We should all know that some people who buy our fish don't necessarily know as much as we do about them. Being said you can only do so much to know how good of a home they are going to etc. always always charge a flat shipping rate that will cover a heat pack whether or not its going to be used and always use your better judgment. I personally feel that if a person isn't willing to agree to my terms with shipping and the flat fee they don't need to have my bettas that I have worked so hard to raise. If you want I can post my policy that I include in all auctions, emails and invoices to customers. Hope this helps.


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

When I purchased from you, a heat pack was never offered to me.


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## bettasusa (Nov 1, 2011)

> When I purchased from you, a heat pack was never offered to me.


Who is this response to?


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## Martinismommy (Dec 2, 2010)

1st off I never ship priority in the winter....2nd I always check the weather for the city I'm shipping to and 3rd I always use a heat pack when the temps are below 70...I do not charge extra for heat packs they are part of my shipping charges...

As far as a refund if you have it stated in your auction when you sold the fish that there is no live guarantee on priority then you will not have to refund the money..Another thing you might add is that they MUST be home to sign for the package on the 1st attempt to deliver or the live guarantee is null and void....


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

bettasusa said:


> Who is this response to?


The OP.


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

Leeniex said:


> When I purchased from you, a heat pack was never offered to me.



Hey don't start with me ok, i have never sold one of my betta fish to you and like i said you probably confuse me with someone else. 
Regarding the DOA policy, you should know what to do when you buy a fish disregarding where you live. You need to do some research first. You should have asked members from this forum exemple before buying your fish from whoever sold to you.
I don't know why you mentioned that to me, i dont know who you are and i don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you should check my photobucket page to see if your aquabid screen name is in there or if your fish is in there. I posted all the fishes i sold to all the customers from aquabid, Ebay and from my own website, just a thing for me to keep track. The link is in my profile photo album.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

It would be kind of silly for a breeder who is sending out TONS of fish to check the weather and climate of the destination of every fish they sell.. Just a thought. People SHOULD know that it's stupid to think a sensitive tropical animal will survive in freezing conditions on a plane/truck.


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

karpediem said:


> Hey don't start with me ok, i have never sold one of my betta fish to you and like i said you probably confuse me with someone else.
> Regarding the DOA policy, you should know what to do when you buy a fish disregarding where you live. You need to do some research first. You should have asked members from this forum exemple before buying your fish from whoever sold to you.
> I don't know why you mentioned that to me, i dont know who you are and i don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you should check my photobucket page to see if your aquabid screen name is in there or if your fish is in there. I posted all the fishes i sold to all the customers from aquabid, Ebay and from my own website, just a thing for me to keep track. The link is in my profile photo album.



You=shop4bettasplendens on AB
bettarainbow=shop4bettasplendens on AB

YOU do the math.


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

Leeniex said:


> You=shop4bettasplendens on AB
> bettarainbow=shop4bettasplendens on AB
> 
> YOU do the math.


Oh ok i see now why you are taking on me dude. bettarainbow is Michael Snkn which is his real name, just found out now and he was the one who sold a betta to you, dont blame on me if your fish arrived dead to your home, do the math with him and blame on yourself and on him if you did not get a heat pack.
You should be responsible for your action, don't blame on someone else. Just because shop4bettasplendens is my aquabid account name it doesn't mean that you should put the blame on me about your fish.


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## jasonh (Feb 11, 2012)

karpediem said:


> That customer live in St Paul, MN, how cold is it over there ?? I know it is cold.
> Why would you choose priority shipping and add no heat pack when you buy so much betta and knowing that it is so cold where you live ?? That customer is certainly a fool.



hi, i live in wisconsin and i have some friends in Minnesota. we sit in a chat room and we have a bot that we use to check the weather.

it has been quite warm in the upper midwest for quite a while.


> weather request; Minneapolis-Saint Paul International, Minnesota (44.9°N/93.2°W); Updated: 1:53 PM CDT (March 18, 2012); Conditions: Mostly Cloudy; Temperature: 75°F (23.9°C); High/Low: 79/63°F (26.1/17.2°C); UV: 3/16; Humidity: 50%; Dew Point: 55°F (12.8°C); Pressure: 29.73 in/1007 hPa; Wind: South at 23 MPH (37 KPH)


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

Olympia said:


> It would be kind of silly for a breeder who is sending out TONS of fish to check the weather and climate of the destination of every fish they sell.. Just a thought. People SHOULD know that it's stupid to think a sensitive tropical animal will survive in freezing conditions on a plane/truck.



Yes, i totally agree with you on that, it is very silly, i don't do that, not really my problem. When people buy my fishes, i only ask them if they need a heat pack or not, if they say no then i don't want to bother them with more questions. They should know better what they need, because they pay for it.


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

jasonh said:


> hi, i live in wisconsin and i have some friends in Minnesota. we sit in a chat room and we have a bot that we use to check the weather.
> 
> it has been quite warm in the upper midwest for quite a while.


It doesn't matter what is the temperature in your area, what it matter is that those fishes are tropical fish, and like Olympia said, it may be warm right now where you live because you feel warm but not for those fishes, they are smaller size than you and more fragile. The trucks dont have heater in their trailer and samething apply to the planes.


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

karpediem said:


> Oh ok i see now why you are taking on me dude. bettarainbow is Michael Snkn which is his real name, just found out now and he was the one who sold a betta to you, dont blame on me if your fish arrived dead to your home, do the math with him and blame on yourself and on him if you did not get a heat pack.
> You should be responsible for your action, don't blame on someone else. Just because shop4bettasplendens is my aquabid account name it doesn't mean that you should put the blame on me about your fish.




I paid 5.00 extra for an insulated box. The "expert" should have known to ask me if I needed a heat pack. 

And you both had fish stolen from your home? What a coincidence.

That's all I'm going to say about this. I just want people to know who you really are.


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

Oh and you just share an AB acct? Is that even allowed? 

I've done alot of research, found lots of links. Does Bettakingdom ring a bell? The name Carpediem sound familiar? Apparently I'm not the first person to have a fish die within hours of arrival.

Anyone doubt me, I have plenty of links.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i got a pair of bettas shipped to me before x-mas. checked the weather myself to make sure it was nice to ship, let the seller know, and STILL freaked out waiting for them. a heat pack was added anyways, because it was still chilly, and they arrived just fine. 

more recently, i adopted a pair of bettas. checked the weather myself to make sure it was okay to ship.

but, then, i guess not everyone does as i do... :I


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

You're right Luimeril but most of the times, you will pay for shipping more than the fish himself, so i guess some of them just don't want to pay for any extra fee.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

my issue was i couldn't pay express. so, i waited and watched the weather. thankfully, there was a small warm front, so i had them shipped then. both times. :V

but, as long as you have it written in your policy, the buyer can't do much. he should have watched the weather, got heating packs, or went Express. :I


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Honestly, I wouldn't have shipped the fish to him period if I personally knew it wasn't a safe option for the fish. I mean, it's kinda like breeding dogs, and selling one to an owner knowing he's going to neglect it. I dunno *shrugs*


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

Pitluvs said:


> Honestly, I wouldn't have shipped the fish to him period if I personally knew it wasn't a safe option for the fish. I mean, it's kinda like breeding dogs, and selling one to an owner knowing he's going to neglect it. I dunno *shrugs*



Well, it is complicated. Most of my customers who buy my fishes live in place where it is cold during winter season and if i dont ship their fishes to them, i will loose customers and do less selling and also those customers will give me a very bad feedback and you know, they will say whatever they want.
So, i have my fish policy on, they are welcome to read it and if they dont want to take their time to read all the lines then, too bad for them.


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## jasonh (Feb 11, 2012)

karpediem said:


> It doesn't matter what is the temperature in your area, what it matter is that those fishes are tropical fish, and like Olympia said, it may be warm right now where you live because you feel warm but not for those fishes, they are smaller size than you and more fragile. The trucks dont have heater in their trailer and samething apply to the planes.



*well you mentioned it was cold and i corrected you.*

you should be providing heater packs regardless and include it in your shipping and handling fees.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I am a little reticent in commenting on this thread. Please bear with me and accept my apologies in advance.

To start with, Betta are cheap. If it costs $100 to have a fish shipped to your home, it's a bargain. That caliber of fish is difficult enough to breed, let alone the painstaking (read: expensive) handling requirements of an aggressive species, added to the costs of shipping a fragile living animal. 

Most people who spend more than fifty-dollars on a fish are not going to kep it in a two-gallon KritterKeeper with a bubbler and a Kmart plastic plant. My twenty-dollar fish just died, leaving me with $120 worth of unused tank, heater, filter, plants and decor. 

My point is: any customer who can quibble about the cost of shipping, or chooses a cheaper slower method or declines safety measures like heat or cold pak, perhaps can't afford to keep the fish.

BettaUSA posits that the _seller_ should, if he can, take precautions to ensure safe arrival, and pass along any additional costs to the buyer. That's the moral thing to do. But how much time and effort should the seller incur (and charge for); where does his responsibility end? Does he have to research the weather in thirty different cities around the world for his thirty daily shipments? Does he have to decide which get heat-paks and which ones get cold-paks. 

And what if his decision is wrong, or what if conditions change. It's been over eighty degrees in the upper midwest this week. What if a heat-pak were included and killed the fish; who's fault is that? More to the point: whose responsibility should it have been to make that decision, the buyer on the spot or the seller thousands of mile away.?

The buyer gets dead fish and lost investment, the seller's reputation is damaged and, conceivably, he loses future business. This looks to me like a lose/lose situation all around.

Fortunately, thousands of fancy, expensive fish are shipped daily world-wide with no problem, and are received into healthy loving homes. The DOAs are a regrettable exception but, however sad, exceptions nonetheless.


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## karpediem (Feb 15, 2012)

All comments are welcome N i am not taking anything personnal.

I ship betta fishes each week and between 30 to 60 boxes with USPS. I also ship once a month 70 pairs hm to Japan with Fedex air.

I think priority shipping is out of question doesnt matter the temperature outside and doesnt matter the location of the buyer. Usps does not guaranty priority anyway, only express, so it make sens.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

If I've learned anything from helping a transhipper and packing my own fish is that heat packs and proper insulation is needed from October to April. In the summer I use the same insulation as I do in the winter but of course minus heat packs. I am very cautious with my heat packs and I make sure there is quite a bit of packing materia between the heat pack and the fish. 

However, if on a written policy, its is the fault of the buyer. I include heat packs in my $15 flat rate priority shipping and my $35 flat rate express shipping. Some sellers (and transhippers) list prices seperately.


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