# Double Veil Tail Breeding?



## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

I was hovering over the internet today and saw a Double Veil Tail and it had me perplexed. What are the genetics behind this combo? Does it just happen to come out that way with a pure double x veil cross? Or is it gender specific, like a veil tail male has to breed to a double tail female to get a double veil tail. Has anybody on the forum tried to breed double veil tails? How does it work out? Sorry if there is too many questions but I'm genuinely perplexed by this :|


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## FinnDublynn (Feb 27, 2015)

I dunno but I love DTVT's and I desperately want one, and I have only ever seen ONE picture lol


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

I found four videos of some full finned males for sale and they got me super interested!


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## kittenfish (Dec 1, 2013)

I think if you breed a double tail with a veiltail you'll get some single-finned veils that carry double tail. Then you can breed two of these offspring to produce a small amount of double veils.


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## FinnDublynn (Feb 27, 2015)

If i ever decide to try my hand at breeding...... I'm going this route... O_O


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Our very own Hrutan tried this, and if I remember correctly, actually produced a few Double Veiltail fry... I can't recall if she has any left.


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## FinnDublynn (Feb 27, 2015)

That's awesome, I just sent a message to Hrutan... I really do like DTVT's... in fact I recently started a thread to describe your ultimate betta (genetics aside, possible or not lol) and I listed SEVERAL DTVT's on my list  I want a DTVT Dragonscale with pastel iridescent fins lol.

but honestly I'd just love to have a DTVT.... I really, really would. lol


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Maybe once I get a bigger setup and a stable housing environment I'll try to breed DTVT, it seems like it would be a nice project with beautiful outcomes.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

DT x VT is similar to DT x HM or any other single tail. You should get single tails, and DT genos - single tail with longer dorsal and or two uneven caudal lobes. If you inbreed the genos, you should produce some DTVT.

This is the only picture I have of a full finned DTVT. Old picture of an old fish. 

View attachment 580970


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Okay, so how does their fin presentation work on a genetic level? Is it a simple dominant recessive or is it more complex like human eye color genetics? If I could do some mock Punnett squares over this it would make me more certain on how I should approach breeding this.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Bettas laugh at Punnett squares!

All right, all right...

DT is a simple recessive. Match a DT to any tail type, and you are going to have fry that all carry DT. Then it is a simple matter of either doing a sibling cross, or crossing back to the parent with DT in order to see DT the next generation.

Where you are going to get in trouble is mixing tail types.

When I mixed a DT geno HM with a VT, I produced quite a large spawn with messy caudal shapes and irregular branching. At first, it appeared that all the fry were VT, with round-ish tails. However, as they grew, extra branching appeared, typically far down the caudal.

When trying to create a DT VT, you are going to have to select for several factors:

1) DT (obviously). If you start with one parent DT, ALL fry will carry the trait. However, if you start with one parent that is simply DT-geno (a carrier), you will have to search through your fry to find ones that are also carrying DT. You can typically spot them due to a long dorsal. If you see 14+ rays in the dorsal, it is almost certainly a DT-geno fish. But, just to make it more complicated, sometimes shorter dorsals are also DT carriers. The only way to know for sure is to breed them.

2) VT. The excess branching needs to be corrected. This may take a few generations. In addition, the caudal shapes need to be watched - crossing HM to VT will give you bell shaped caudals, which are against the IBC standard. The fin should instead have longer rays at the center and shorter rays at the edges to create a gentle tip.

3) Lobe evenness, caudal length. Uneven DT look hideous. VT caudal length should be roughly 1 body length.

4) Body strength. VT have huge, flowing fins already, and you want to double that weight. They must be bred strong and exercised regularly to stay healthy... like a rose tail must be.

I do not have any double tail survivors from that spawn. Due to some strange and horrid water quality issues, the whole spawn was grossly stunted. Due to bad genetics -- probably from Primus, the founding male -- the rate of spinal deformity was so high that I decided to scrap the project. I did not have one double tail with a straight back, and putting them down sucked.

It CAN be done, and if you wish to take that journey, you will create some beautiful fish!


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Wow! That was exactly what I needed! Thank you!! I think I'm going to spend some time researching what's available for stock and plan if I want a specific coloration I'm going to try for or if I want to try for just the tail. Thank you so much for that information, I have a book with some Betta genetics in it but I don't think it was exactly meant for in depth studying and precision lol.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

No problem.


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## FinnDublynn (Feb 27, 2015)

SunnySide... When you get around to it, I get First(second only to you lol) dibs on the offspring!!! !!!!!


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Deal!! My hens decided to go broody so I might have to hold off for a while. Too many baby animals and then I ship off to college.


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