# Switching to soil base?



## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

I currently have two tanks (and an empty tub) that are planted. I use a mixture of regular black gravel and small grain gravel for the substrate, however, I'd like to possibly switch to soil based tanks at one point. Is it worth the hassle? 

I use root tabs as well as liquid fertilisers in both tanks (this stuff). The 3 gallon gets one teaspoon every water change and the 6 gallon gets two. Water changes are usually done twice a week on both tanks. I also have desk lamps with 11 watt bulbs (equivalent to 55 watts but energy saving - not sure if that means they're giving off light equivalent to 55 watts but only take up 11, I'd appreciate it if someone could clear that up for me). Both are 6500K as I can't find anything higher around here. There's one lamp for each tank. No driftwood in any of the tanks as my pH is low as it is (6, possibly lower but that's as low as my test goes) and the water is very soft. Plants with rhizomes are attached to rocks and decor. 

Tank 1 is a 3 gallon occupied by one adult betta. As of yesterday I removed most plants as they were dying, so this is what's left: 
* Java Fern - Narrow Leaf variety
* American Eleocharis (I think that's what it is, it looks like grass and I'm not home to check right now)
* Hygrophila corymbosa (just the stems with a couple of tiny leaves :c I got this without roots a while back and even though it lost most of the adult leaves, the roots have grown like crazy!) 
* I have some Salvinia natans and Red Root Floaters on the way for this tank.

Tank 2 is a 6 gallon occupied by one juvenile betta and a variety of plants, including: 
* Anubias nana
* Some sort of crypt (very young plant)
* Bacopa caroliniana
* Murdannia keisak (love this plant!)
* American Eleocharis (again, I _think_ that's what it is)
* Limnophila aromatica
* some other plants which I don't know the name of as they were sold as unlabeled bunches.


I think I should mention that I have killed a fair share of plants, including species that most would consider as beginner plants. This list includes Water Wisteria, a type of Amazon Sword, Dwarf Water Lettuce and even two moss balls, as well as many others. Ideally my goal is to have the plants to stop dying on me and start growing and thriving instead. Which is why I'm considering switching the substrate to soil as I've read sooo many good things about the benefits and what not. However, I'm not entirely convinced if it's a good idea or not. 

For my big tub I've had no substrate, but I had small plastic containers which were mainly filled with soil and capped with some gravel. This was fine as the soil didn't go all over the place and I could just take the containers out whenever needed. Fair enough, the whole thing didn't last long as the fish which were supposed to live in the tub died, but it seemed like a good idea. Only it wouldn't work in my tanks because the containers would take up too much space. I'm quite worried about the soil getting stirred up and breaking my filter - not that it matters much as it's not gonna cycle with that pH, but I would prefer having it there anyway. Makes me feel a little better because I'm still secretly hoping it will somehow cycle. Also, what happens if the soil becomes anaerobic? I have a barbecue stick to poke it with but there's no chance I'm taking the risk if there's a possibility it can kill my fish. Should I get a few MTS? The thing with snails though is that Lucifer will probably make lunch out of them, and I'm not really up for fishing out stinking snail remains out of his tank. I also don't want snails if they're going to munch on my plants. Most of the MTS I've seen around here have been black, so perhaps the fish wouldn't see them on the black substrate? Speaking of which, can I just use the mixture I have now to cap the soil?

Now, for the soil itself. For the tub I used some sort of compost that I had left over from the my geranium plantation - that really got put of hand lol. Started out with 12 baby plants at the beginning of the year and by the end of the summer they took over all my available pots and were growing like weeds! I'm not sure if this compost would be suitable for an aquarium, but if needed I could probably get some other soil. I'd appreciate some suggestions, but bear in mind that I'm in the UK so I can't get most US brands here. How do I know the soil is safe? I'm not digging anything up from my back garden because I have a dog and we spray pee burned grass patches every spring and plant new grass so yeah... Not really suitable haha.

Sorry for the 817252 questions and half a novel! I'd just like to know as much as possible before trying anything. Christmas break is nearing so I'll have the time to work on this if you guys give me the green light!


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Yes, well worth it. Initially, my 100litre was gravel, then i switched to gravel and a soil base, then eventually I ditched the gravel and switched to sand. Much easier to clean IMHO, as I found when I was vacuuming the gravel I disturbed the soil. With teh sand, the debris mostlys sits on top, and stirring the surface of the cap is enough to remove debris. Then its just a case of poking the soil to release gases. 

Both times I did it over several days, with the fish in for the entire process. All I did was use a small plastic bag, put the rinsed soil in, then saturated it in the bag before tipping it in gently close to the bottom  As yours are smaller tanks you may be able to do it easier, by removing the fish, filter, plants and heater to a bucket, empty the tank and start again in a way. 

You can use organic potting compost, I know for a fact a lot of the UK aquascapers have used Miracle Gro's Organic Choice _Potting Mix,_ or John Innes No.3. 

With low PH, avoid anything with peat in it. Also avoid composts that have added inorganic fertilizers or containing additives like perlite since it has an annoying tendency to rise to the surface every time the substrate is disturbed.

Depending on buidget, John Innes No3 *raises* PH! could be a good choice for you. Should be cheaper than aquarium soil. Its also sterilised, I believe, so adds some peace of mind. 

For the poking, by doing it regularly for the first few weeks and monitoring ammonia levels, you can then take it back to once a week or two, even less. I personally do it every water change. You may need extra water changes for a while. 

Another solution to the ammonia spikes is to age the soil in a bucket of water for a few weeks first, but you will loose nutrients first. Personally, I would rinse and use it rigth away and then just poke it once a day, if you are doing a w/c do the poking right before, and that will counteract it. If not, check the ammonia levels half hour or so after a poke to be sure. Even with a whole tub of soil in my big tank, i never had an issue, though. 

Personally I havent used it yet, just used the JBL aquarium stuff. thinking of trying compost next time, or, if money is good, splashing out on some ADA Aquasoil or Amazonia.


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

Hey BettaMummy! 

Have you seen improved growth and plant healthy since you've switched to soil? 

The gravel I have is mainly this which isn't real sand but it's just as small. Would it be fine for a cap? I'd prefer not to buy things I don't really need if I can just use what I've got now haha! 

Where would I find this Miracle Gro stuff? I'm limited to local stores right now as the car broke down and I can't travel too far haha. Can you even buy soil at this time of the year? It's usually spring/summer that shops are filled with plant stuff, now it's all christmas things which kinda sucks. 

John Innes No3 sounds great (it's cheaper from what I've seen on the internet), but I'd prefer something that won't alter the water chemistry too much. The pH isn't causing any issues other than cycling so I'd prefer not to mess with it unless necessary. If I ever feel the need to raise it I'll look into adding crushed coral 

Extra water changes are not a problem. How do you know you're doing enough poking? I'd be quite worried about missing areas 

Edit: I've noticed that on a lot of these different soils it says things like "Feeds plants for 5 weeks". Does that mean that after five weeks the soil loses all the good stuff and becomes useless? It would kind of defeat the purpose if the soil had to be replaced so often.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Kisiel said:


> Hey BettaMummy!
> 
> Have you seen improved growth and plant healthy since you've switched to soil?
> 
> ...


Should be able to get the garden spoils at a garden centre, or the supermarket come spring. You're right in that I doubt there is much around now in Asda. 

I know aquarium soils are good for about 3-6months, nutrients wise, then you may have to top up. I wait until I see signs of deficiency starting, then started dosing with liquids/root tabs. 

I found this info on the interwebs:
"The benefits of soil substrates are so much greater than the sum of their parts, not least is their ability to retain nutrients, and offer some protection against algal blooms, albeit indirectly. But also, as I mentioned earlier, soil substrates have an additional advantage when it comes to meeting your plants demands for carbon. The decomposition of organic matter by bacteria in soil substrates releases CO2. In many freshwater bodies this decomposition produces far higher levels of CO2 than can be accounted for by atmospheric equilibrium alone."
^ that will apply even after the added fertilisers/nutrients that are in the soils are gone. 

"Soil degradation?
Nevertheless, this often begs the question…surely the soil will degrade over time as nutrients are steadily depleted by vigorously growing plants? The answer is not necessarily. The soils I have recommended are largely composed of clay and peat and have naturally high CECs as they contain particles that readily attract and bind nutrients to them. Plants are then free to uptake the nutrients through their roots. Research shows that given relative concentrations in the water column many aquatic plant species will preferentially uptake most of their nutrients from the substrate, in particular iron and other trace elements, and phosphorus which is rapidly absorbed. So providing your cap of sand is of a thickness and grade that allows adequate water movement and nutrient transference your soil substrate should retain enough nutrients to keep your plants happy almost indefinitely."

^ S/He does recommend Innes 3, and I believe the MiracleGro. 

Computer change, then I will edit or post again with answers to your other questions.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Kisiel said:


> Hey BettaMummy!
> 
> Have you seen improved growth and plant healthy since you've switched to soil?


Definitely! I won't go back to gravel only, and am going to replant my sand-only tanks to soil when I can afford it. 



Kisiel said:


> The gravel I have is mainly this which isn't real sand but it's just as small. Would it be fine for a cap? I'd prefer not to buy things I don't really need if I can just use what I've got now haha!


I get it completely! I try to recycle aquarium stuff where I can. That should be fine, my aquarium sand is pretty fine and works well. I believe the 'ideal' sand cap size is around 3mm diameter, so it shouldnt be far off. I used kiln-dried builders sand from B&Q last time, well rinsed, as that is £5 for 25KG, as opposed to about £25 for 5KG as with aquarium sand! D: I just capped it with leftover JBL, but I would use it alone in other tanks as an option if you ever want to change out.  



Kisiel said:


> Where would I find this Miracle Gro stuff? I'm limited to local stores right now as the car broke down and I can't travel too far haha. Can you even buy soil at this time of the year? It's usually spring/summer that shops are filled with plant stuff, now it's all christmas things which kinda sucks.


Previous post.  Just doing it like this so I make sure i cover everything.



Kisiel said:


> John Innes No3 sounds great (it's cheaper from what I've seen on the internet), but I'd prefer something that won't alter the water chemistry too much. The pH isn't causing any issues other than cycling so I'd prefer not to mess with it unless necessary. If I ever feel the need to raise it I'll look into adding crushed coral


I'm trying to find out how long this PH buffering lasts. If it was long term, it may be worth it for the cycle being enabled. Compeltely your choice and if it doesnt last at least 6months its a lot of effort. XD



Kisiel said:


> Extra water changes are not a problem. How do you know you're doing enough poking? I'd be quite worried about missing areas


I just randomly poked it every 5cm or so across the whole tank, moving driftwood so i could get under that too. 

Edit: I've noticed that on a lot of these different soils it says things like "Feeds plants for 5 weeks". Does that mean that after five weeks the soil loses all the good stuff and becomes useless? It would kind of defeat the purpose if the soil had to be replaced so often.[/quote]

Previous post again. 

Hope this helps, and I will let you know if I get an answer on the length of time the PH change is seen for.


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

My local Asda is tiny, there’s like nothing there lol. Doubt I’ll find soil even in the bigger one a few miles away, it only has soil and plant stuff during the “season” which obviously isn’t now… I’ll try B&Q tomorrow if my boyfriend agrees to go. We’ll have to get the bus so he’ll probably moan at me if I ask him to carry a bag of soil for me! Oh well haha. 

So should I stop dosing ferts once I switch to soil? I still have almost an entire bottle of that liquid stuff, it would be a shame if it went to waste! I do plan to set up another tank at some point for a pair of ADFs, maybe I’ll go barebottom so I’ll have somewhere to use the ferts. 

That’s some really interesting information there, I’ll have to read some more about it! It’s interesting that soil releases CO2 - as someone who’s too scared to try DIY CO2 and can’t afford a proper kit, this seems like a much better option. Are the levels released safe enough not to harm the fish? 

From the second quotation, I understand that if your cap is appropriate, the soil will absorb nutrients from the water once it runs out of it’s own supplies? How do I know the plants are suffering from deficiencies? I’m assuming the obvious signs would be dying and melting off, but I know that sometimes that’s normal when you’re introducing a new plant as it needs to adjust to your water chemistry. 

Oh, well, that’s a ridiculous difference in price! Aquarium sand/gravel is soooo expensive! The only advantages of it seem to be the variety of colours that it comes in haha. I like my black substrate although I sometimes think that I’d like a sand-coloured one instead. Generally aquarium stuff is quite expensive, not just gravel… Even decor, you need to pay like £4 for the smallest pieces! I’ll definitely keep the sand you mentioned in mind for next time I’m setting up a tank though  


This isn’t exactly relevant, but I thought I’d ask anyway: my “stainless steel” aquarium scissors have a little bit of rust on them. No idea how, I’ve had them for two weeks and I wipe the water off after every use. Are they still safe? -.-


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Kisiel said:


> So should I stop dosing ferts once I switch to soil? I still have almost an entire bottle of that liquid stuff, it would be a shame if it went to waste! I do plan to set up another tank at some point for a pair of ADFs, maybe I’ll go barebottom so I’ll have somewhere to use the ferts.


There comes a point where dosing ferts will do nothing without more light and CO2 so it may be wasted going in. How long does it have to be used once opened? You will eventually need liquids again, so if it has a few months it should be fine. I still tip a little in (well, dose is more accurate) once every few weeks, even with tabs and soil. And yes, I still use tabs! Especially for my little groundcover plants. 



Kisiel said:


> re the levels released safe enough not to harm the fish?


I can't see it being too high for them to deal with. Is it only a betta in there? As bettas are labyrynth breathers, as well as gfill breathers, slightly elevated CO2 wont stress them at all, and its almost impossible, logically (to me at least) for the soil to be that good. that or my fish would have died. At least I hope that is the case, i will look into it. 



Kisiel said:


> How do I know the plants are suffering from deficiencies? I’m assuming the obvious signs would be dying and melting off, but I know that sometimes that’s normal when you’re introducing a new plant as it needs to adjust to your water chemistry.












 



Kisiel said:


> This isn’t exactly relevant, but I thought I’d ask anyway: my “stainless steel” aquarium scissors have a little bit of rust on them. No idea how, I’ve had them for two weeks and I wipe the water off after every use. Are they still safe? -.-


I'd replace them when you get a chance, but they are unlikely to be in the water for any real length of time, so the leeching either wont happen or will be minute in ppm speak. I really need scissors and tongs. >.>; Right now its all hands and thumbnails for trimming.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

The John Innes No.3 is a long-term effect. People on the plant forum I use who have used it are still seeing the effects a year on. It raises it from between 0.1 and 0.5 over a week, which would be balanced by any water you add ina water change. It shouldn't be enough to harm him, as it would stabalise with the water change routine. Might be just enough to give you that cycle though, plus all the benefits of the nutrients for the plants. Might be worth looking into.  

Definitely not an option for me though it seems. My TDS readings are already 400ppm from the tap, plus the 50-60ppm the JI3 would add in, my fish would be wading through soup! D: ADA for me it seems....


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

This is somewhat OT, but before you buy more plants check if they are hard or soft water plants and their pH preferences. There are many "beginner" plants I can't grow because I have extremely hard water and pH 8.0-8.4. That might be your problem. It's my opinion a great many people are unsuccessful with plants because they buy the wrong ones for their parameters.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

What ones can't you grow Russell? The only one I have had issues with is Pogostemon Erectus. :/ Bloody thing just rotted away slowly for months; sometimes it looked like it might revcover, then it wilted again... 

I don't know of many that won't survive in soft water, though.

EDIT:

Actually, was this three gallon more hevaily paknted than the other, initially, Kasiel? 

Just come across something interesting. I know I have read it before, 'cos your PH issue in that tank have been nagging at me... 

You are in a soft water area, but with a moderate PH out of the tap, correct? Like your tap runs at 7.0-7.6, IIRC?

"The effect of plants on pH is complex because aquatic plants use two different sources of carbon, dissolved carbon dioxide and bicarbonate ions. Dissolved carbon dioxide forms carbonic acid, which lowers pH. As plants photosynthesise, they remove this carbonic acid, allowing pH to rise. However, in most aquaria the actual concentration of carbon dioxide in the water is very low, which is why aquarists concerned with plant growth need to fertilise their tanks with addition carbon dioxide. If there is insufficient carbon dioxide for their needs, plants will switch to using up bicarbonate ions. Bicarbonate ions are a major part of the alkalinity reserve in the water, that is, the ability of the water to resist changes in pH. With the bicarbonate ions taken away, the water loses some of its buffering capacity, and the pH drops. The overall result is that rapid plant growth coupled with insufficient carbon dioxide and/or bicarbonate concentration can lead to dangerously fast acidification."

For a three gallon, that can be a lot of plants, if you have lost a lot on top of the other ones that remain. Maybe the ones that died did so because they could not compete for the Carbon Dioxide that was available, and as all the CO2 was used, the bicarb was used... low PH!

Can you get hold of some liquid carbon? Its moderately cheap. Pretty sure [email protected] stocks it and I know for sure Maidenhead does. Your plants will benefit from it anyways, and it may even balance the PH in there!  

Also, I now need to test the PH in my imports tank... he has four bunches of crypts in there, and a twisted Val! D:


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Double post, apologies.


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

Okay so I never got the soil the other day but I went shopping with bf's mum today and we stopped by B&Q and I got the Miracle Gro Potting Mix! It wasn't as expensive as I expected it to be, only £3.85 for 8 litres. I got one bag because I plan on doing the 6 gallon first. If everything goes well I'll also switch the 3 gallon. 

Thanks for the diagram! Definitely saving that. From the look of it my java ferns are lacking magnesium! D: silly things, maybe if they were't putting so much effort into making babies they wouldn't be using up so much lol. Are leaves that look like the ones in the picture able to be saved, or should they be cut off? 

Stupid scissors, they were almost new :/ I probably won't get a chance to replace them anytime soon, but oh well. It's just a few little rust spots. Honestly can't imagine life without them! Using your hands is so inconvenient xD 

The three gallon wasn't _that_ heavily planted. The last layout contained two pots of red Ludwigia (which died :/) and some java ferns. I'll get a picture of what the tanks look like now so you can judge for yourself how heavily planted they are. 

Yes, tap water comes out around 7. I've tested it a while back. I'm located in the central belt of Scotland, if you know how to check the water hardness or whatever in different areas, there's where we are. I know the water is considerably harder down south, especially nearer London. 

I'll look into liquid carbon. I don't think the local [email protected] carries it but I've been planning a trip to Maidenhead for a while so I'll have a look. I was supposed to go a while back but the car broke down and the store is so far away from the train station... I'd probably get lost lol. 

Russell, how do you know whether plants 
are soft or hard water? The thing with me buying plants though is that you never know what pets at home has in stock, so when I'm there and see something I like I just buy it. The labels don't say what pH the plants do well in, and the staff don't always know answers to my questions.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Kisiel said:


> Okay so I never got the soil the other day but I went shopping with bf's mum today and we stopped by B&Q and I got the Miracle Gro Potting Mix! It wasn't as expensive as I expected it to be, only £3.85 for 8 litres. I got one bag because I plan on doing the 6 gallon first. If everything goes well I'll also switch the 3 gallon.
> 
> Thanks for the diagram! Definitely saving that. From the look of it my java ferns are lacking magnesium! D: silly things, maybe if they were't putting so much effort into making babies they wouldn't be using up so much lol. Are leaves that look like the ones in the picture able to be saved, or should they be cut off?


I would cut any severly degraded leaves. So long as you have a few healthy ones, the growback should be fine. 



Kisiel said:


> Stupid scissors, they were almost new :/ I probably won't get a chance to replace them anytime soon, but oh well. It's just a few little rust spots. Honestly can't imagine life without them! Using your hands is so inconvenient xD


My fingers are permantently pruney, what with 5 planted tanks on the go and a sixth coming! D: 



Kisiel said:


> The three gallon wasn't _that_ heavily planted. The last layout contained two pots of red Ludwigia (which died :/) and some java ferns. I'll get a picture of what the tanks look like now so you can judge for yourself how heavily planted they are.


Would be useful. Its the lack of minerals in soft water. What is considered heavily planted normally would destroy a softwaters ability to buffer PH. You can get remineralisers, like you need to use if you have RO water. My guess is with the soil and the ferts, there should be enough stuff in there. 

Do you monitor your PH regularly? Might give us an idea if it is that when you switch out your base. 

Also, red plants are notorious for either loosing colour or dying. They can be a handful. But most issues I have heard of are becuase the water is hard. Theyre a softwater species IIRC. 



Kisiel said:


> Yes, tap water comes out around 7. I've tested it a while back. I'm located in the central belt of Scotland, if you know how to check the water hardness or whatever in different areas, there's where we are. I know the water is considerably harder down south, especially nearer London.


I will try and find out. Shouldn't be too hard, I hope. 



Kisiel said:


> I'll look into liquid carbon. I don't think the local [email protected] carries it but I've been planning a trip to Maidenhead for a while so I'll have a look. I was supposed to go a while back but the car broke down and the store is so far away from the train station... I'd probably get lost lol.


I use this:  API CO2 Booster 

If Maidenhead don't have it, [email protected] should be able to order it in to store (order online, will check into it while I'm there today).



Kisiel said:


> Russell, how do you know whether plants
> are soft or hard water? The thing with me buying plants though is that you never know what pets at home has in stock, so when I'm there and see something I like I just buy it. The labels don't say what pH the plants do well in, and the staff don't always know answers to my questions.


I know it was directed at Russell, but while I'm typing....  

Maidenhead has a section for info on most of the plants they sell. Fishkeeper Plant Databank

I have a good database from Tropica, but need a mod to be sure I am allowed to link, as there is a link to a forum on the webpage! D:


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Such a large town I live in that we have three homebases... and mine doesnt stock teh MiracleGro Organic Potting Mix! So I am being adventurous and joining you in the switchover, but I'm going with John Innes No.3. 

Don't forget, with this switch you'll need to closely monitor your ammonia levels. Do you have Stresscoat+(or Prime/Amquel+/AmmoLock)?

I have found an intertube seller of Prime in the uk at around £7... but apparently Stresscoat+ detoxifies it, so not locks, so does the same job. Glad I didn't order any!


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