# Betta Hanging In a Corner and Parameters Question



## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

I wrote in a few days ago on the issues I was having in my roughly 2 month old tank. 

In a nutshell for anyone who hasn't seen that thread, I have a 10 gallon, heated, filtered tank that used to house 5 neon tetras and a red veil tail Betta. 

Just before the weekend, I started losing tetras and the betta was really lethargic for a day or two. I had been battling ammonia problems in my tank for a couple of weeks before that and my levels around that time had reached about 1-2 ppm. Also in the short history of my tank, the fish had been treated for ich (Rid Ich) and fin rot (Triple Sulfa). Yes, there was a lot going on in my tank and as I have been told, it likely wiped out any good bacteria I had going.

Currently, of my two remaining tetras, one looks like it won't make it to tomorrow. It has lost a significant amount of colour and has been really breathing fast. The other tetra looks stronger than him but not by much. I thought I saw goldish dust on them but that is supposed to be uncommon in a freshwater tank and the betta is not showing any outward signs of this, so neon tetra disease is the other thing that comes to mind. I am sure this was all brought on by the problems w/water quality.

The issue is this; my betta has been a lot more active this past day or two, I would say mostly back to normal, but he has picked up a couple of new habits. One is that he likes to go hide under the gravel/decorations, to a point where I couldn't find him for a good 15 minutes, and the other is that he has taken to hanging vertically (nose up) in the one inch space between my filter and tank wall. He sometimes stays there for a few minutes, and others longer and he is blowing what looks like a bubble nest. At first I was excited thinking that he must be feeling better and happier, but then I read somewhere that a betta who is very sick, almost dying, will sometimes hang vertically and blow bubbles. I don't know what to think. Is he that sick and I don't know it or is it just something he's doing? When he is not up there, he is swimming around and even flaring. He seems much more alert and active than he was a couple of days ago but I am worrying because he was sick and because these are new behaviours. If anyone has some experience on this suject, I would greatly appreciate it.

My second question is about water parameters. Like I said I had been having ammonia problems and was taking my water into Petsmart for testing and it was always ammonia high, rest of the readings 0. I got an API Master test kit and when I tested yesterday and today, my ammonia was only a touch above 0, I would give it 0.1, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. Yesterday a few hours after a PWC, my PH was 6.8-7.0 and today it has gone down to 6.2. Why would that drop so much in one day? Also, I tested my untreated tap water and I had ammonia between .25 and .5 just in my tap water. Could this be contributing to my ammonia problems in my tank? What do I do to combat this problem as no one seems to recommend using ammonia detoxifiers.

Sorry this was so long. There is just a lot going on in my tank. I wish it would settle down and I could enjoy it some instead of constantly worrying and treating things! lol

Needless to say, thanks in advance for any input!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

What water conditioner are you using? If you don't already use it, I would highly suggest using Seachem Prime for your tank because it will help to neutralize ammonia by turning it into the less toxic ammonium. It can also be used in a pinch to neutralize an ammonia spike (instructions on bottle). Also, I wouldn't advise getting any more tetras until the tank has stabilized. They're rather delicate and I don't think they'd survive the recycling process you appear to be going through. I'm not sure about your dropping pH, though. I would retest again and see what the results are. 

One other note: don't use any bacterial agents to help cycle your tank. I hear they really screw the cycle up and make your readings all wonky, causing you to think the tank is cycled when it's not. If you need more help with cycling, you can PM me or check the forum for tips. 

Is your betta eating? If your betta is active, I don't think he is hanging there blowing death bubbles. Normally, those bettas who hang nose to the top and blow bubbles are so sick they can't swim right and so end up on their tails like that and the bubbles come from them gasping for air. Those bettas don't swim around, they just hang there like that until they die.  It sounds like your guy feels better. Hopefully. Keep an eye on him to make sure he is eating and not acting abnormally, like darting or flashing or acting lethargic.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good morning Sakura8! Thanks for responding. 

All along, I have been using Kordon's Novaqua Plus as a dechlorinator and Amquel ammonia detoxifier with every water change. This is per Pet store where I bought all my equipment. I knew nothing of fishkeeping when I started so whatever they told me, I did. Now having read a lot online and especially in light of the last week's probems, I have seen that I should not be using the Amquel as a regular thing. I thought it was part of treating the new water each time. In addition, I was told to put in some bacteria supplement. The one I have is Top Fin. Later on when I kept having ammonia problems, I was given Stress Zyme Plus in an effort to quickly boost my good bacteria to help deal with the ammonia. I didn't know it could screw things up. :/

On my last trip to the pet store to get my water test kit, the guy that set me up on the whole system (and knows my whole sordid tank history from start to finish), suggested I go with Prime. Apparently it dechlorinates as well as neutralizes ammonia. Isn't that just the same as what I was currently using though with the two Kordon products? Anyway, I will use the Prime on my next water change. 

I just tested my PH again, and this time it is a definite 6. Since it is the lowest on the scale, could it be even lower and I don't know it? I am very hesitant about adding PH upping products whether store bought or baking soda type because I don't want to make things unstable rising and dropping all the time but I can't figure out why my ph would drop so much. At one point a couple of weeks ago, it was almost at 8! I know bettas prefer slightly acidic but perhaps this is why he was so lethargic a few days ago. I did read that ph crashes can weaken/kill fish too. 

I also tested my ammonia this morning and it is now showing 0 but it smells so bad like a sewer! Should I do another water change? The last one was two days ago.

As of this morning, the two tetras were STILL alive. The one that I thought wouldn't last has pretty much lost all his colour though and is now a silvery white, yet he still has the energy to run away from the other one who is trying to pick at him. Since they are in the small QT sitting in display tank, do I need to do a complete water change or just half? There's only about 2-2.5 inches of water in there. Oh, and assuming these two don't eventually make it, I will not be adding more tetras period because they have not been kind to my betta (nipping, no chomping his fins and stressing him out). I will do more research and not take pet store input as bible when choosing future tank mates - but nothing for now till this tank is cycled properly for real!

Finally, my betta hasn't surfaced yet since I have been up . I think he is in his new hiding/sleeping place under the clam shell aerator. I am tempted to probe him out but I want to see if he will emerge on his own. Yesterday he was pretty energetic and while he looked very creepy hanging in the corner blowing bubbles, it was definitely not the kind where he couldn't move and was gasping for air. He would do it and then go swimming all over the place. I wouldn't say he was darting or flashing per se, but he was a bit hyper for lack of a better word. Like sometimes he would purposely get close to a decoration, barely touch it and then jump away. Is this him playing? I think flashing is more like ramming into things hard to scratch themselves. So yesterday, he ate for the first time and actually kept it down. Prior he was eating but spitting back up again and this morning, he also spat back up. Something is definitely not right with him. Tomorrow it will be a week since he hasn't eaten properly. Don't know if I am dealing with some kind of parasite or bacteria or what. All I know is that this fish needs something. Any ideas?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

And good morning to you.  

Per your water conditioner. I don't have any experience with Amquel but it does seem like Prime does the same thing as Amquel and your Kordon Novaquel, just in one product. If Amquel neutralizes the ammonia by turning it into ammonium, then they work the same. I will say an added benefit of Prime is that it is highly concentrated so it only takes a tiny bit for each water change, meaning one medium-size bottle can go a long way.

I've used Stress Zyme Plus myself but that was before I was involved in someone else's unfortunate cycling experience where false readings led to the death of the betta. I believe it's very hard to keep the proper kinds of bacteria alive while sitting on a shelf so often the types of bacteria in the biological agents are the wrong kind, usually of a more terrestrial persuasion. It seems that those kind of products add something that gives you nitrate readings right from the start, which shouldn't happen. During a normal cycle, the ammonia will get high and then level out as the ammonia-eating bacteria grow and nitrite appears. This first part can take about 2 weeks or more. But because you're waiting for the ammonia-eating bacteria, which puts out nitrite as its waste, it should be IMPOSSIBLE to get any nitrate readings during the first few weeks unless you are cycling with an established filter or gravel from an established tank. Nitrate usually doesn't show up until maybe the 4th or 5th week of the cycling process.

If your ammonia is consistently reading 0, then it's time to start testing for nitrites as well. If the nitrites get too high, that can also cause the fish harm so maybe that's why the tank smells awful? Aaah, that lovely sewer tank smell. Yup, I've smelled it before. I would test for nitrite and then do a partial water change.

I'm incredibly puzzled as to why your pH keeps plummeting. Do you have hard or soft water? And do you happen to know what the pH is from untreated tap water? Usually pH isn't such a big deal with bettas, or most fish for that matter. If the change is fairly gradual, they will adjust to almost any pH. Mine is at the high end of the scale, around 7.8, but all my bettas adapted and are doing fine. Using any kind of pH uppers/downers can get very tricky because you have to match the pH exactly with each water change to avoid shocking your fish. A wildly fluctuating pH is way more harmful than a pH that higher or lower than what they are accustomed to. So, basically, what we need to do is find out why your pH is fluctuating and fix it so it doesn't do that. Ergh, easier said than done.

I would probably do a complete water change on the tetras' QT tank since there isn't much water in there. I'm surprised they're still alive. If they do make it, will you put them back in or just keep them in a separate tank? And yeah, pet store employees unfortunately don't always (if ever) know what they are talking about. Some people have had success with tetras as tankmates but usually it's what you've experienced: a lot of nipping and chasing. If you do want tetras, I'd suggest bigger ones. Rasboras are a good choice because they're a lot calmer than tetras. Also try platies.

I would say if your guy hasn't come up for air in the next hour, definitely start poking around in case he got trapped. If he can't surface for air, he'll drown. I know, a fish drowning. As for his food. It's possible his pellets are too big, the way he spits them out seems to indicate that. Have you tried crushing them into smaller pieces? You can also try presoaking them in tank water to soften them. If that fails, you can try frozen bloodworms to see if he'll eat anything at all. If he won't eat frozen bloodworms, he's definitely getting sick. 

It's possible the pH fluctuations are causing him to act jumpy and a little crazy. Flashing is as you said, usually contact with something in an attempt to dislodge external parasites. Is he bloated at all? You can use a flashlight to see if he has any white or golden spots.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Ok, lots to go through and absorb (is there a dizzy emoticon?? lol).

First, I am finally getting the nitrogen cycle through my head gradually which is a big improvement on my original idea of buy fishtank, insert fish, enjoy! The only thing is that I am encountering a lot of bumps along the way. It seems to me that after 2 months, my tank is still pretty much uncycled! This may be due to the round with rid ich and two rounds of triple sulfa it was fed in such a short time.

I also hear you where Stress Zyme is concerned. It seemed like a miracle product when my tank was going through the really cloudy, ugly period and after weeks of that, it cleared it up within a few days. That said, every since I started the tank, I have been getting 0 readings for everything but ammonia. First I would take my water into pet store for testing and finally I broke down and bought my own master test kit. I made sure not to get strips b/c I have ready EVERYWHERE that they are not as reliable as the liquid tests. Probably the cloudiness was a bacterial bloom and had I ridden it out, I would have had the good bacteria to eat up my ammonia and complete my cycle. Live and learn, right?

Anyway, where readings are concerned, my ammonia was 0 this morning and nitrites/nitrates were both 0 last night (around midnight) and the night before. I didn't test those this morning because they are always 0. The guy at the pet store said my tank was so clean, it was like there were no fish living in there. That probably translates to uncycled tank because if it was cycled, I should have seen numbers in the nitrates/ites by now. So nitrites being 0, what would account for that horrible smell. It makes me lightheaded as it takes over the room especially a few days after a water change when whatever it is is buidling up. I haven't tested my tap water for nitrites/ates, however I did test my tap water for ammonia and right out of the spout, the ammonia is around 0.5 so that must mean something right? That means that I probably don't have true 0 ammonia in my tank as the Amquel Plus I had been using is just converting that to ammonium.

The PH is a whole other issue. I don't know either why it is falling like that after a water change. I also realize that having a stable but not perfect ph is better than having a good ph that won't stay where it is. I don't know if my water is hard or soft, I'll have to ask my utility company. The guy at pet smart told me I could put a sea shell in the tank to help with the ph. Is that ok or would that be the same as using ph up like product? I know factors like KH and GH have some bearing on the overall ph too although I haven't got my head wrapped around that one yet. In a way it is better that my ph is low because if it was high, the results would have been really bad when mixed with the ammonia spikes I was having!

As for the fish; yes, I am surprised too that the tetras are still alive. I feel so bad watching them just get worse but I don't know if I have the guts to euthanize them. I always have this hope that they might recover somehow. If they survive, I will keep them separated because I know they will just harrass the betta again. They never bothered him in the beginning, it has just been this last few weeks that they have been after his tail.

Speaking of mr. betta, he didn't surface and I prodded and prodded and he had really wedged himself under the clam decoration. He was fine though and keeps going back in there despite my efforts at covering the access with gravel. It's one of those things that opens and closes as air comes through the tube and the bottom of it is not flat, but concave so when he goes under there, he's got a half to three quarter inch space under there. I had to lift the thing up with my reacher and he reluctantly came out. I don't know why he wants to hide away all day. 

Unfortunately, he didn't want to eat this morning. Yesterday he came to the surface waiting for food, today I had to really get his attention and when it was right in front of his nose, he ate it but then just spat it back out a few seconds later. I have always pre soaked his food as some of the pellets are quite big and I try to give him freeze dried worms/daphnia/mysis shrimp and he wants none of it. He will take it in and spit it out from day one. All he wants are the pellets. I haven't tried the frozen foods though but I doubt he'll want them. He's weird, I guess.

So far he has been out and about after I probed him out and aside from not eating and hiding under that decoration, he seems pretty active. I have been taking a flashlight to both him and the tetras for the last couple of days, and while I suspected the tetras had some fine gold dust looking thing, the betta does not. Nor does he have spots or anything. 

I will do another water change this afternoon and see how things go. I also had some aquarium salt in the tank (maybe a couple of teaspoons total). Could that decrease the ph?

Thanks for all your input. I hope there will be a light at the end of the tunnel soon. :-?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Dizzy emoticon: :crazy: 

Yeah, even if you remove the carbon in your filter, that many rounds of meds could probably mess with the tank cycle. Also, it's just a crazy process and it seems to get more and more complicated, even though it's supposed to be straightforward. I'll be honest: I gave up on consciously trying to cycle my tank. I just did lots of water changes and let it figure things out on its own. But I also only had one betta to worry about. I was like you, I did so many water changes because I was afraid my betta was suffering that there was never any ammonia in the tank for it to cycle with. That's why I eventually gave up. It did cycle, just very slowly. I sent you a message that hopefully clears up the entire cycling process. 

Now I'm cycling a community tank with 4 cory cats and 6 danios. I didn't realize I needed to cycle the tank, it was established or so I thought. Then I remembered the filter broke and I had to get a new one, with all new filter media. Yay. :roll:

Yes, you're right, you most likely don't have absolute 0 ammonia if your tap water has ammonia in it to start with. I believe, and I may be wrong, that the API test kits only test for true ammonia whereas some kits don't differentiate between ammonia and ammonium but will give you a false reading. 

As for your pH, I'm just not sure about it. I did send a message to a friend who is a water chemistry genius so hopefully she'll find the thread and check on it within the day or so. She'll know more about whether or not aquarium salt would affect pH and that sort of thing than me. 

It sounds like your betta definitely doesn't feel well if he wants to hide. Not the most promising of signs. Normally I would say try AQ salt but since you've had some in there and it doesn't seem to be helping, I might suggest putting him in a small QT container for observation. It can be a small bowl or ideally a 1 gallon tank, something that can be heated. A loss of appetite can mean a bacterial infection, parasites or constipation. Is he bloated at all and has he been pooping?

As for his food, I would definitely suggest trying to crush them up. You could also try soaking the pellet in garlic juice (crush some garlic, add tank water, soak). Garlic is an appetite booster as well as an immune system booster. You could also try smaller pellets such as New Life Spectrum Small Fish Formula .5mm pellets. Those are seriously tiny so if the size of the pellet is the issue, these would be easy to eat. Your tetras can eat them too. Has he eaten anything at all in the past several days, aside from the pellet he ate yesterday or the day before yesterday?


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

lol @ dizzy/crazy emoticon = ME!

When medicating, I did indeed remove the carbon but not the black sponge. The Rid Ich bottle says "will not harm biological filters" wihile the Triple Sulfa says nothing. Probably the latter did a number on any good stuff I had growing. Anyway, part of my problem is the constant conflict of information I got along the way. Not blaming anyone here, everyone has their own methods and theories and I am sure if you ask 10 people how to cycle a tank, you'll get at least 11 answers. Ha! For instance, the guy I got most of my advice from at pet store, is extremely smart, knowledgeable and has been doing this a long time BUT, he is most experimental and will try to push limits on everything he does to constantly see what he can come up with next. Someone like that giving advice to a newbie might not be the best match. Beyond that, the other guy there that is supposed to be an even bigger fish expert than the first guy, said he doesn't bother with any cycling. He just plops the fish in the tank and that's it. He also said his betta never got fed for 3 months while he was away at school and when he came home, it was fat, and well and healthy as anything. Go figure. I guess he has a green, er, wet thumb? So the sad truth remains, that my experience will probably be similar to yours. I was actually discouraged from doing frequent water changes because it would mess with my bacteria but if my ammonia was climbing to more than dangerous levels, what else should a person do? In any case, I will read your nitrogen cycle email very gladly!! Thanks for sending it., Also, good luck with your community tank! Despite the bummer about the broken filter, I am sure this round of cycling will go easier for you! I look forward to that one day myself. Yeah, my head is in the clouds!

As for the PH, I will look forward to hearing from your friend if they have a chance. I definitely need enlightening. Makes me wish I paid more attention in science class back in the day! Funny how the stuff we hated back then becomes so interesting later on in life. I was almost giddy dropping the chemicals in the vials for the water test. lol But I digress...

So yes, while my betta is quite active when he is out, he is hiding quite a bit and I don't like that at all. He will go under there and disappear for hours at a time or when I poke him out. 

Also, I have heard about the garlic juice trick. I might have to try that to coax him to eat. I put in a couple of pellets for the tetras and the less sick one gobbled them up and wanted more but the sick one didn't eat. I do indeed have the New Life Brand teeny pellets and that is what I always give the tetras. i squirt them in the water with a plastic kids meds syringe and that way the get to eat them before the betta attacks them. For the betta, I am feeding the Omega One super colour pellets but I find them quite large and so I always presoak the pellets before giving them to him. Once they are soaked, he has never had a problem eating them even if it takes a couple of bites to do it. So when he didn't eat this morning but came up and was looking hungry at the top a little while ago, I tried a few of the tetras small pellets and he ate them. As far as I saw he didn't spit them out although I don't know what happens when he hides under the decor again. I just feel better that he ate something. It was a week ago today that he was really lethargic and totally uninterested in eating or moving. So he had a pellet yesterday, and a few mini ones today. He hung around looking for more but I didn't want to push it since he's not 100%.

Regarding what could be wrong with him, at this point I'm stumped. He doesn't really have any outward signs of anything. I was treating him for fin rot and had completed one full course of 4 doses and then was on my second one, when I was told to stop and leave the tank alone. When I started treatment for fin rot though, he was fine and acting and eating normal. However, there is something in this tank that killed 3 tetras and is doing in the others too. The one tetra has totally lost its colour and has very rapid breathing. Like I said I saw some goldish looking stuff on the top along the spine but not sure if that is velvet or just him shining as they are pearly looking to begin with. Since they are pretty much at death's door in the QT tank, I added a drop of Rid Ich to see if there would be any improvement. I figure I had nothing to lose with them.

As for the betta, I don't know if he has pooped. I usually see his quite large brown mounds on the gravel but not lately. When he was really sick a few days ago, I noticed there was white poop stuck to his butt. i thought that meant parasites. There is also a lot of white dandruff like flakes floating all in the water when you disturb the gravel. Different than the usual brownish residue that comes up. I have no idea what that is and looked online but the only thing I could find is some kind of worms etc and itis not like that. They are outright flakes. I think I will go out and buy another little critter keeper like the one the tetras are in and float the betta in there so I can monitor his intake/output. Also, since the tank will be empty, hopefully if there is some parasite in there, they'll die off faster without a host. 

Wow, that is quite an eyeful for you! Sorry ._. I will actually try to upload a couple of pictures I took of him so that you can see if you detect anything off about him. Btw, HIS name is Princess the Goldie - named of course by my 5 year old!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Here are some pics. 

One is of the underside of his gills. Is it supposed to be white? On one side there is more of a white section (size of a pencil eraser) but he wouldn't let me get him on that side.

There's one that is him from the side and the angle makes him look more bloated than he really is. Too look at him, he doesn't look bloated.

The others are his whole body.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Just glancing at the pics I can say, yes, usually the underside of the gills on a red fish like him are paler and he does look just a teeeeeensy bit bloated but as you said, it could be the pics. He looks like a big guy or is that my imagination?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Hello there~ I apologize for not seeing this thread earlier...also I apologize for not reading this entire thing, I sort of skimmed through it because it was somewhat repetitive.

Could you please help me by answering the following questions:
a) How often and how much have you been changing the water in the attempt to fix your pH?
b) Do you know the KH or dKH of your water?
c) How often and how much do you normally change your water?

Another thing you can do for me is to leave a bucket of freshly treated water over the course of 24h, testing it periodically.

For your ammonia spike, low pH can cause your beneficial bacteria to cease functioning, or at least under perform. They don't like it, xD

As it stands right now, my *personal* course of action would be to do the largest water change you can physically do (something like 95%). I believe that the amount of medication you have been using may have caused some disruption in your water's buffering capacity, and still lingers.

I will check back on this tomorrow! I hope your tetras and betta get well soon


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thank you Bahamut! *giant bear hug*


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good Morning fellow fish friends. 

Sakura - How are you this morning? Guess it is pretty early out your way yet. 

Thanks for taking a look at the pics. I'm glad the paleness underneath is not a huge worry. I have heard that when they are sick, their bellies get white. Well, the pic shows the face but a little bit of the belly is also whitish as you can see from the side shot.

Also, he is not as bloated as he looks there, but I agree that he might be a tad constipated. I think just for good measure, I am going to try a pea this morning as there were no excrements in his little QTank this morning and I do know that he ate and kept down several small pellets and there is no throw up or anything else either.

Oh, and no, he is not a big fish. I think I just got really close up with my phone to take the pics. heheh He's about an inch and a half without the finnage and not too fat these days either since he skipped a few meals.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good morning, SVC. Yes, it's about 9 AM here. For some insane reason I get up at 6:30 AM every day to feed my cats but I'm a night owl who didn't go to bed until 4AM. I'm crazy. How are you today?

Princess Goldie has a cute face, does he have blue eyes? (when I was in 3rd grade, my very first betta was a red betta named Princess. ^_^)

If you try pea, make sure to use either fresh pea or NO SALT ADDED frozen peas. Boil it for 3 minutes, then soak it in ice water for 1 minute. Cut it in half and remove a piece from the inside of the pea, no bigger than one of his fish pellets. I can't remember, did I tell you to put him in epsom salt? You can, if you feel he needs it to help stimulate his system. It's 1 tsp per gallon.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hello Bahamut285, thanks for taking a look here. You must be the chemistry genius Sakura spoke of. Also, I sincerely apologize for how lengthy my posts have been. I think I have been through so much with this tank that I am afraid to leave anything important out because as of this moment, there are so many unknows and any piece of the puzzle might help figure out what is going on. I really take my hat off to you for getting through most of it. 

So, in answer to your questions;

a) How often and how much have you been changing the water in the attempt to fix your pH?  I haven't been doing anything yet to fix pH. I only found out my pH is off the last few days since I got the Master test kit. I noticed that my pH is always higher after a w/c and then sinks all the way down to minimum on the colour chart by the next night.

b) Do you know the KH or dKH of your water? Unfortunately, no clue. I don't have a test for that and wouldn't know where to begin.

c) How often and how much do you normally change your water? Usual maintenance is once a week w/ a 25% water change. I've been told any more could stress/shock the fish.

Another thing you can do for me is to leave a bucket of freshly treated water over the course of 24h, testing it periodically. Sure thing! So I add the dechlorinator I normally use to the water in the bucket?

For your ammonia spike, low pH can cause your beneficial bacteria to cease functioning, or at least under perform. They don't like it, xD Ah I didn't know that, but isn't it also true that having a low pH will reduce the toxicity of the ammonia to the fish? If my pH increases, and I still have high ammonia, my fish will get sicker right?

As it stands right now, my *personal* course of action would be to do the largest water change you can physically do (something like 95%). I believe that the amount of medication you have been using may have caused some disruption in your water's buffering capacity, and still lingers. Ok, dumb question alert: if I change out 95% of the water, won't I be getting rid of too much of any possible good bacteria I still have? Also, am I just removing water without gravel vac'ing? Incidentally, since my fish are out of the tank now, I did do a 50% w/c yesterday so still change out 95% or do another 45-50%?

I will check back on this tomorrow! I hope your tetras and betta get well soon  Thank you! Unbelievably, the tetras are still kicking, and the betta is none too pleased with me at being in that small QT container  

I will check my parameters until about noon tomorrow and post the results.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

A fellow night owl like myself! I usually don't go to sleep before 2 or 3 am either since it is the only peace and quiet time I have after husband and kids finally sleep! However, I try to watch some shows I have pvr'd at that time as a way to wind down otherwise I can't just get in bed and sleep. 

Yes, Princess the Goldie is very cute (thank you) and amazing how they all have such different personalities and are quite smart! Speaking of smart, I think I have figured out the reason she was hiding under the clam shell. I think this past few days there has been so much going on in the tank with me taking the tetras out and putting them in their QT and then trying to clean those white flakes out with a net that I think he was scared he was going to get netted or meet a similar fate. Hiding under there meant I couldn't net him probably. Poor thing. I did manage to just scoop him into the container though as he was swimming along the top so no mean net for him.

I can't tell really about the eye colour as it looks very dark. I would say black. There is an iridescent part around the eye that is bluish though, I think that is the under eye though and it's cute how they have eyelids. lol I never noticed till I started inspecting him up close. Oh, and that is really cute about your first betta named Princess! Was it an actual female betta? My daughter didn't care when I explained that this betta was actually male. She said Princess the Goldie is going to be "her" name. Ok, then. She actually picked the red one because she figured the blue ones were boys. lol

Now, about the pea... Yes, I did feed it to him and he gobbled it up! Yay! Only thing is I had already fed it when I got your message about the no salt part. I had a mini panic and checked the bag. They are frozen Green Giant peas and there was no ingredients list on the bag so I assume there are just peas in there and nothing else. The caloric information on it did say 150mg sodium per 3/4 cup but isn't that the natural sodium the peas would contain? I guess if there had been added salt, there would have had to have been ingredients listed on the package. I didn't boil it for three minutes though. I boiled water and put the pea in there for several minutes in a small espresso cup and when I went to it the water was cool already so I peeled it and gave it a quarter of the pea cut into pellet sized pieces. I had actually read this online a while ago. I did not do the epsom salts though since I had read in a few places that it is best to try the pea first and leave epsom salts as a last resort because it can stress the fish out sometimes. Hopefully he'll "go" soon. I did see a few small whitish specs on the floor of his container though when I gave him the pea. Could that be poop? They weren't his normal brown mounds though. The tetras on the other hand did have a few normal looking poops in there. 

I need to change out their water now. Should I just replace it with 100% fresh water from the tank? It already matches in temp and has been treated since yesterday.

Btw, the really sick tetra has some more colour back today. He still didn't eat but he doesn't look as pale as yesterday. I am going to put in another couple of drops of rid ich in there today and see if he continues to improve. These guys sure are resilient little buggers!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, you're probably right about the reason why he was hiding. I do know they hide when they scared, stressed, or sick. Or mad at you. One of mine hides in his cave when he has to be fasted. But he seems to be afraid I'll forget about him so he pops his head out every few minutes as if to say, "Just to let you know, I'm still mad at you" and goes back in. 

Haha, no, my Princess was a male too. I don't remember, I don't think anyone at the pet store bothered to explain to my parents and me that it was a male. He was a bit darker red, if I remember correctly. But that's funny your daughter thinks the blue ones are males and the red ones are female. :-D

Yup, sounds like you did the pea right. As long as it's fully cooked and softened and you don't feed too much. Frozen brine shrimp is actually an even better option for constipation since it's meaty and bettas are carnivores but peas work great in a pinch, I've used them before. I usually head straight for epsom salt though if my fish are having trouble. It's funny, most people here on the forum would say use the PEA as the last resort and go for the epsom salt first. It's all a matter of personal preference though. 

Can you describe those whitish specs? How big were they? 

You could use the water from the tank, sure. That would work great. 

It's funny, I'd always heard tetras were delicate lil things that needed a specific pH or they'd curl up and die. I'm glad to hear they're actually quite hardy because I'd like a few for my community tank. I'm glad the sick one seems to be doing better, good for it!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Mhmm, what I have gathered in my short two months of betta ownership, is that they LOVE to eat when they are well! I get such a kick out of the way PTG will snap his head back and forth while eating the pellet - just like a lion ripping meat apart. They definitely don't like food being withheld. Funny how yours gets mad at you. It's like you can see that look on their faces. Bettas have a generally turned down mouth anyway which makes them always look kind of irritated, but when they really are, somehow it shows!

Haha about you having a male princess too. I have to admit, I did a lot of research before getting him because I knew in advance that fishies would be the loot bag at my daughter's friend's b-day party so I knew that the long finned ones were the males. The only thing I knew about them before that was that you can't put two together for fighting.

It's funny about the pea thing. I guess that is the problem with having so much information readily available online. Everyone has a different idea about things and it's hard to know what to follow when you don't know enough about it to judge. Anyway, there has been no poop yet. I wonder how long it should take them once they eat the pea?

As for the white specks, there aren't too many of them (2-3) and they are really small - like specs of regular sugar I would say. There are also a couple of fuzzy things in the water; whitish and almost like the fuzzy stuff that grows on some of the decor. There is no fuzzy things on him though, it is just a couple of small pieces floating in the water. No brown poops though. If/when he poops the pea out, should it be green since it doesn't get digested? Based on the results of PTG's output, I might search for some of those tannins OldFishLady suggested earlier. I wonder though, if there are parasites in the tank, should I maybe put in fresh, treated tap water to avoid getting it on the fish again? If I do it this way, it will give the ones in the tank a chance to die off without a host.

Also, I have one quick question of the things Bahamut asked me. I was asked to do a 95% water change but since I did 50% yesterday, should I only do another 50% today or still the 95% Sorry to ask again but I need this information before tomorrow morning when Bahamut will check on the thread again. 

Oh, about the tetras, yes I was told at the pet store that they tend to be finicky and get sick quickly too and I have to say, a few of them have gone overnight. But these two are hanging on through all the crap I have put them through with medicating and bad parameters etc. I originally lost one of my tetras long ago when I added water a couple of degrees warmer than tank and they were gasping at the top and one died that way. The rest recovered and then I lost 3 more to this past weekends tank issues. I guess some fish are stronger than others too as an individual thing within their own species.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> I haven't been doing anything yet to fix pH. I only found out my pH is off the last few days since I got the Master test kit. I noticed that my pH is always higher after a w/c and then sinks all the way down to minimum on the colour chart by the next night.
> 
> b) Do you know the KH or dKH of your water? Unfortunately, no clue. I don't have a test for that and wouldn't know where to begin.
> 
> ...


Okay thank you! From what I can see, I recommend the following:
- Yes put dechlorinator into your test bucket
- *IGNORE* what I said about the 95% water change, yes it would reset your tank and I was aware, but that was basing off of no information and the "easiest" way to fix it. (Albeit the laziest)
- Start by doing very regular changes of water to keep the pH stable. Maybe do something like 10% in the morning and 10% before you go to bed.
- They do sell KH and GH chemical tests, but in my experience the strips for these two are actually pretty good. It would be worth the investment to purchase one, because you don't need it often.
- Yes, you are correct that low pH will hinder the toxicity of ammonia, but low pH will cause damage to internal organs (especially reproductive) to your fish. Judging that you are saying that the pH doesn't go below what you are currently seeing, it may be dangerously low. A pH of around 4-5 range can kill healthy adult fish.

Considering you are only aware of this problem recently, do you have any plants? If not then I suspect that this problem has been somewhat ongoing, and could be related to low KH. The CO2 that your fish exhale will contribute to the decreasing pH. Plants also tend to suck nutrients from the water and can occasionally cause pH crashes, although I have no experience with plant-related crashes.

EDIT: OR go to your LFS/LPS and ask to test KH and GH for you


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

_Okay thank you! From what I can see, I recommend the following:
- Yes put dechlorinator into your test bucket_ check!

_- *IGNORE* what I said about the 95% water change, yes it would reset your tank and I was aware, but that was basing off of no information and the "easiest" way to fix it. (Albeit the laziest)_ glad I didn't already do it. I'm terrified of having to break things down and start all over!
_- Start by doing very regular changes of water to keep the pH stable. Maybe do something like 10% in the morning and 10% before you go to bed._ Ok, sounds good.

_- They do sell KH and GH chemical tests, but in my experience the strips for these two are actually pretty good. It would be worth the investment to purchase one, because you don't need it often._ I wonder if my Petsmart has them. I didn't see anything like that when I was looking for my test kit. I will look again tomorrow when I go back.

_- Yes, you are correct that low pH will hinder the toxicity of ammonia, but low pH will cause damage to internal organs (especially reproductive) to your fish. Judging that you are saying that the pH doesn't go below what you are currently seeing, it may be dangerously low. A pH of around 4-5 range can kill healthy adult fish._ Yikes! I certainly don't want to damage them in any way. 

_Considering you are only aware of this problem recently, do you have any plants? If not then I suspect that this problem has been somewhat ongoing, and could be related to low KH. The CO2 that your fish exhale will contribute to the decreasing pH. Plants also tend to suck nutrients from the water and can occasionally cause pH crashes, although I have no experience with plant-related crashes. _No live plants. I don't think I'm that advanced yet in the hobby. I think I need to get everything settled first and everyone healthy before I add another dynamic in the tank. Also, my tank currently has LED lights over it which I don't think are the right kinds of lights to sustain plants.

_EDIT: OR go to your LFS/LPS and ask to test KH and GH for you_ Darn it! I just came back from the LFS. Last time I was there, he told me to come in today and bring both my tank water, and regular tap water to see if there was anything off to begin with from my tap. If I had seen this post before I went, I could have asked him to test the KH and GH. No biggie though b/c I am going to go back tomorrow so I'll ask for that to be tested then.

_______________________

Just an interesting observation here. I have noticed over the past couple of days of testing that my regular tap water (untreated) has an average pH bet'n 7.6-8.0. My tank water starts out around 7.0 after a water change and then starts dropping after that. My second testing was 30 hours after a pwc and the pH had dropped to about 6.0. There is less of a differnce between yesterday's freshly changed reading and today's reading. Yesterday a few hours after the w/c it was 7.2 and today it was 6.8 but then less time had transpired between these two readings than the first two readings. The results from the LFS were a bit different still, since they use the test strips. For example, while my ammonia is showing between 0 and 0.25, his strip showed 0.5, but then the strip doesn't have the grade in between. It just goes from 0 to 0.5 Everything else was clean (0) and pH he said was "slightly acidic" but not as low as my readings. 

Also, he suggested I get a few danios to put in the tank as they are very hearty, and because he said they will keep the tank cycling. He also said that if the tetras recover and go back in the tank, they will get along nicely with the danios and won't bother the betta.

Thanks very much for checking in here again today, and I will report the findings of my water testing from the set aside and treated container tomorrow around noon.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Once I get the results from your test bucket, I can make a better conclusion. Right now my main conclusion is that there is SOMETHING in your tank causing these ridiculous drops in pH.

Considering you said your tap water's "average" pH around 7.6 - 8.0, I'm guessing it is different each day? *How* different is it each day? Is it very close (like: 7.9-8.0, 7.6-7.7) or is it very different from day to day? (like: 7.6-7.9, 8.0-7.7).

*If there is nothing wrong with your tap water and your test bucket, then it is definitely something in your tank, and you MAY have to restart it.*

However right now I'm thinking you have a KH problem.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

One thing I forgot to mention was that I had used Aquarium salt in my tank on a few occasions, and most recently this past weekend when the fish were dying and having breathing problems. My tank is 10 gallons and I first put in about one level teaspoon of Aq salt. I know the usual dose is about one teaspoon/gallon, but since I have tetras that are sensitive to salt, I only put in 1 tsp. total. After a couple of days, I did a water change and added in a little more. I know salt does not evaporate out so I only added in a little extra with my water change. I don't normally add salt with every water change but since there was illness, I did replenish this time. Not sure if it has any effect on the falling/rising business though.

I think my tap water's pH differs slightly each day, but then I also have a hard time reading the shading variations. They are after all just a colour chip and are never 100% the same as the actual samples. I think I need time to get used to reading them. The colours are so darned close to each other in some cases that I find myself second guessing and put it as a range between the two. Not very accurate I know. It is not a huge gap though. Like the low pH test is most definitely blue which is 7.6 so I do a High range one too to make sure it isn't even higher and that one comes out somewhere between 7.6 and 8.0 but looks nothing like 7.8 which is orangey. So I call it 7.6 -8.0 see my confusion? Anyway, this morning's reading of just tap was 8.0 and this afternoon it was between 7.8-8.0 so not a huge deal. What is worrying me is that my tap water seems to have about .25ppm of ammonia and I understand tap water shouldn't have any. LFS didn't see much with his test, maybe just a trace. It seems the API liquid tests show higher values than the strips do.

Hopefully it will make more sense to you tomorrow.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

*We have some poop!*

Ok, so this morning as I looked to see if the petta had pooped, there was only a few specs of tiny white stuff and one small fuzzy thing. When I was changing the water in betta's QTank, I noticed more of these fuzzy white things. I will include a picture. Not sure how good it will come out, but up close, it looks like there is a tiny black speck surrounded by this fuzzy stuff. Any ideas as to what this means? I know the normal types of poop I have found on the gravel are more like reddish brown mounds. 

Sorry for the poop picutres, but if I can figure out what is bothering this little guy, I can hopefully treat it accordingly. Btw, it's the stuff on top of the green leaf hammock.

Thanks!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> One thing I forgot to mention was that I had used Aquarium salt in my tank on a few occasions, and most recently this past weekend when the fish were dying and having breathing problems. My tank is 10 gallons and I first put in about one level teaspoon of Aq salt. I know the usual dose is about one teaspoon/gallon, but since I have tetras that are sensitive to salt, I only put in 1 tsp. total. After a couple of days, I did a water change and added in a little more. I know salt does not evaporate out so I only added in a little extra with my water change. I don't normally add salt with every water change but since there was illness, I did replenish this time. Not sure if it has any effect on the falling/rising business though.


It depends on the chemical composition of the salt




SVC said:


> I think my tap water's pH differs slightly each day, but then I also have a hard time reading the shading variations. They are after all just a colour chip and are never 100% the same as the actual samples. I think I need time to get used to reading them. The colours are so darned close to each other in some cases that I find myself second guessing and put it as a range between the two. Not very accurate I know. It is not a huge gap though. Like the low pH test is most definitely blue which is 7.6 so I do a High range one too to make sure it isn't even higher and that one comes out somewhere between 7.6 and 8.0 but looks nothing like 7.8 which is orangey. So I call it 7.6 -8.0 see my confusion? Anyway, this morning's reading of just tap was 8.0 and this afternoon it was between 7.8-8.0 so not a huge deal. What is worrying me is that my tap water seems to have about .25ppm of ammonia and I understand tap water shouldn't have any. LFS didn't see much with his test, maybe just a trace. It seems the API liquid tests show higher values than the strips do.
> 
> Hopefully it will make more sense to you tomorrow.


A range of 7.6-8.0 is a huge gap for fish, remember the scale is logarithmic, a pH of 8 is 10x more basic than pH of 7. If your tap has wildly fluctuating pH then this just brings me closer to believing that the KH of your water is fairly low. Ammonia in tap water is not uncommon nowadays, this is because when the water company uses chlorine to sanitize the water, it is not stable enough and evaporates away, so they use a more stable version, Chloramine. If you live far enough away from the water plant, the chlorine part would have dissociated and evaporated, leaving only ammonia. You are not the first case on this forum to have ammonia in your taps.

We recommend using SeaChem PRIME because it removes chlorine and detoxifies ammonia, and can also be used as an emergency ammonia spike fix.


EDIT: Going to go offline for 3ish hours


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

SVC, I'm a tad concerned about parasites but I haven't seen enough to be sure. Y'see, one thing about bettas and poo is sometimes they swim around and it stirs up the water, causing the ball of poo to dissolve and look like that stuff in your pic. Since I'm not 100% if that is what is happening, I would say continue to watch him for poos and look to see if any really big whitish things come from him. Usually parasites are longish white stringy things. Is PTG still relatively active?


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, parasites are my concern too. So far there has been nothing long and stringy. I have been watching him frequently the last few days and in the QT it is much easier to see poops if any. I think there is definitely _something_ going on, but can't pinpoint what. I think I mentioned, I am treating the tetras with Rid Ich in hopes of recovering them. If they do respond being at death's door the way they are, then there must be something that got them sick. Of course, it could have been the wonky fluctuations in the tank that stressed them and made them vulnerable to stuff lurking in the water so it's a wait and see game.

Right now, PTG is pretty active, as much as he can be in that small container. When he was really sickly back in the 10 gallon, he was literally sitting on the gravel all day in one position barely moving so compared to that, he is pretty active now. He'll come and go and sometimes get antsy and flare so the behaviour is not as concerning. His appetite seems to be back too, now if we could just get the bowels moving more...

If it turns out to be a parasite, my guess is that a food containing meds is the most effective rather than something to treat the water. Hopefully he won't reject it if need be. Btw, I don't think the poop was like that because he swam too much and disturbed it. When it is normal mound poop, it sits in one piece on the gravel no matter how much they swim around. This stuff was very light and fuzzy looking and probably came out like that. The tetras poops are normal so far and sinking to the ground. I'm still hoping PTG will poop that pea out or its epsom salts for him. I better look up the method of administering that in advance! 

Well, have a great night and don't stay up too late! :wink2:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Epsom salts are 1-3 tsps per gallon, depending on the severity. I would start with 1 tsp and predissolve the salt in dechlorinated water first. That poo looks weird, almost like . . . fishy diarrhea.  Hopefully he will have done something during the night.

If it is parasites, the best way to treat them is by feeding Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated pellets. They're a bit on the bigger side and taste kinda lousy so you may need to soak them in garlic to get him to eat them.

Haha, I'll try not to stay up too late. G'night.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey there Sakura, hope you're well this morning. 

Thanks for the recipe for the epsom salt, hopefully I won't need to do it. I came down today to find a large-ish poop! The good thing is that there was a large piece of brown poop surrounded by some of that lighter stuff although this time it wasn't as fuzzy. Maybe it was the pea? In your experience, when you've given a pea, has it come out solid and green looking or kind of fluffy and lighter colour? Anyway, hopefully his #2 will get back to normal. I'll show the picture to my pet store guy today and see if he recommends the medicated food. I might get some to have on hand as it looks like fish get all these kinds of things pretty often. At least he looks a bit happier today. His fins are more open too. *Should I feed him today, or give him a break?*

Btw, yesterday at the pet store my lfs guy suggested putting some danios in the tank to keep the biological production up. Only worry I have is that if there is something pathogenic in the tank, they'll get sick and I'll have to treat the tank again meaning more meds. On the other hand, I don't want to go into another cycle again either b/c of having no one living in the tank.

Ok, got to go and do my last water test for bahamut. Will post the results in a bit!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

*Water Testing Complete!*

Ok Bahamut, here you go - loads of water testing done. I went above and aside from just the test bucket, I tested the tank too and I also tested the regular tap water (untreated) for pH and ammonia levels. Results below: All testing done with API Master Test Kit.

*Test Bucket (w/Prime) 1:30pm 6:30pm 12:30am 12:30pm*

*Low Range pH* .............7.6........ 7.6....... 7.6........ 7.6
*High Range pH *.............8.0........ 7.8....... 7.8........ 8.0 
*Ammonia *.................... 0.25....... 0.25..... 0.25...... 0-0.25
*Nitrite* ......................... 0........... 0......... 0.......... 0
*Nitrate *........................ 0........... 0......... 0........... 0


*Tank Water (Prime+Salt) 1:30pm 6:30pm 12:30am 12:30pm*

*Low Range pH* ..................7.0...... missed.... 7.2........ 7.0
*High Range pH*..................n/a.......... "....... n/a........ n/a
*Ammonia* .........................0 ish*....... ".... ~0.25....... 0 ish*
*Nitrite* ..............................0............. "......... 0......... 0
*Nitrate*............................. 0............. "......... 0......... 0 


*Tap Water (untreated) 1:30pm 6:30pm 12:30am 12:30pm *

*High Range pH* ..............8.0...... 7.8-8.0.... 8.0....... 8.0
*Ammonia* .....................0.25..... 0.25........ 0.25..... 0.25

__________________________________________________
** - this is where I couldn't distinguish an exact reading. The colour of the test was neither 0 nor 0.25 but somewhere in between. If I had to guess, it was probably closer to 0 - maybe around0.10-0.15*

*Also, where I had a range, it was also a similar situation where the liquid colour was in between two result shades. *

Overall, there wasn't as much variance in the results as I initially expected, or maybe that is due to me getting better at reading the tests. The tank seems to be holding its pH better, although my readings differed from the LFS readings yesterday. His readings showed higher ammonia (o.5) and more acidic on the pH. Then again, two different types of tests were used (LFS used dipping strips).

Hopefully, some of this info will be helpful to you, and thanks so much for taking the time to look it over.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Your nitrates in your tank water are 0? Are you sure it's cycled? If it isn't then it's not really a problem to reset your tank XD

I'm more inclined to believe your API kit over the strips, although both my API kit and strips are generally accurate and similar to each other...

Keep doing regular, small water changes, it seems like there may have been something interfering with the pH inside your tank. Also I would not recommend putting salt into an established tank, bacteria are petty. What is the chemical composition of the salt you're using? Is it just NaCl?

...Actually, what is the pH in the QT tank? Just one test should be fine.

I'm still convinced it is *something* in your tank xD


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Just popping in to say this: I read that Amquel drops pH.

It's on a betta breeding site 
http://www.flippersandfins.net/BettaBreedingArticle.htm#choosing

Here's the quote:

Tap water conditioner: Kordon's Amquel® and NovAqua® are recommended to remove toxic chloramines, chlorine, ammonia and heavy metals from your tap water. However, before using AmQuel®, be sure that your KH (carbonate hardness) is 4 or higher so that you will not experience a rapid decrease in pH. If your KH is less than 4, use Prime™. Your local fish store will usually test your water for KH for free.

Don't know if this helps you and Bahamut figuring things out but I thought I'd mention it.

*pops back out*


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Your nitrates in your tank water are 0? Are you sure it's cycled? If it isn't then it's not really a problem to reset your tank XD That's the thing, I'm not sure it is cycled, or whether it was and now it's not anymore. I know I should have some nitrates by the 2 month mark but it is a definite 0, no doubt. 

I'm more inclined to believe your API kit over the strips, although both my API kit and strips are generally accurate and similar to each other... Yes, what I've heard too which is why I opted for this kit. I don't know what brand my LFS is using, but his results are always higher than mine, except pH which comes out lower. Hmm...

Keep doing regular, small water changes, it seems like there may have been something interfering with the pH inside your tank. Also I would not recommend putting salt into an established tank, bacteria are petty. What is the chemical composition of the salt you're using? Is it just NaCl? Oh, good to know. When my fish first showed signs of fin rot, it was suggested to put some API aquarium salt in there, which is what I did. I would say there is about 2 tsp in my 10 gallon so not a lot considering how much you can put in a tank that size. Right now, I am using the prepared salt water from my 1 gallon container treated with prime for my betta's QT. Seemed to have helped as he looks much better today in terms of having his fins unclamped and having gone #2!

...Actually, what is the pH in the QT tank? Just one test should be fine. Low Range pH is 7.6 so I did a high range one too which showed a definite 7.8. I also tested the other parameters too just to see what was going on with the fish in an unfiltered environment... Ammonia came out at 0.25 and Nitrites/ates were both 0 again. Does that sound right since there is some fish waste in there. Although it hasn't been 24 hours since I last changed his water, I guess with those readings, I should get it done sooner than later.

I'm still convinced it is *something* in your tank xD Me too - sigh... Do you think triple sulfa can do it? I have had the carbon back in for a while since the last time it was in there but I also have these weird white flakes all over. I am wondering if the triple sulfa didn't completely dissolve and is resting in the gravel and causing a change in the water chemistry :dunno:


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Just popping in to say this: I read that Amquel drops pH.
> 
> It's on a betta breeding site
> http://www.flippersandfins.net/BettaBreedingArticle.htm#choosing
> ...


Very Intersting Sakura, thanks so much for that! It makes a lot of sense because I had been using Kordon up until a few days ago and the last while I was dosing more than the recommended (per my LFS) to deal with the ammonia. Maybe all that stuff going in there was causing my pH to crash like that - all the more reason to find out what my KH levels are today when I go back there. I will report back what I uncover. That might also explain why my main tank is more stable this past day or two since I switched to prime! Hmmmmm....

Thanks for popping in - :yourock:


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

My first guess was the medications as well. I'm not entirely sure that activated carbon "GETS RID OF" medication but rather makes it less effective. I remember I had to do a 100% water change in one of my tanks after treating the whole thing with Malachite Green.

Considering the QT has the same pH as your test bucket and tap, this is the only conclusion I can think of.

Since it is no longer cycled or never cycled, you're not really losing much from resetting the tank. The medicines may have killed your bacteria, too. It will also give you a chance to completely remove the salt you put in there before.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

SVC said:


> Hey there Sakura, hope you're well this morning.
> 
> Thanks for the recipe for the epsom salt, hopefully I won't need to do it. I came down today to find a large-ish poop! The good thing is that there was a large piece of brown poop surrounded by some of that lighter stuff although this time it wasn't as fuzzy. Maybe it was the pea? In your experience, when you've given a pea, has it come out solid and green looking or kind of fluffy and lighter colour? Anyway, hopefully his #2 will get back to normal. I'll show the picture to my pet store guy today and see if he recommends the medicated food. I might get some to have on hand as it looks like fish get all these kinds of things pretty often. At least he looks a bit happier today. His fins are more open too. *Should I feed him today, or give him a break?*
> 
> ...


Hi, sorry for the late reply on this. I'm glad to hear he's, uh, producing something. It could be the pea that made it look funny. We'll see what another other poos look like. If he's not bloated, you can probably feed him. I don't think it will hurt him. 

I'm not sure I'd recommend danios with a male betta. I had some danios in my community tank and I put my female in there and she was stressed out because the danios were so bloody hyper. They were bouncing off the walls, practically. They're great for cycling because they're really hardy but they're very, very active fish and really are pretty nippy with long-finned fish like bettas. You might ask your LFS guy if you can have a couple handfuls of gravel from one of their tanks - that will help cycle the tank faster. You would put it in some nylon and just place it near the filter somewhere. 

Another option is to get a smaller tank for PTG and ask your LFS if you can "rent" a goldfish for the 10g. Goldfish produce lots of ammonia really fast, you could probably get the tank cycled in 4 weeks with one small goldfish in there. But it all depends on your LFS. Do you plan on getting tankmates for PTG in the future? If so, maybe they'll loan you a goldfish if you promise to get the tankmates at their store.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

No worries Sakura, I think everyone here is awesome and replies very quickly which is comforting especially in the middle of a crisis!

Yes, I was relieved to see he had passed some stuff. There was a bit more even later on when I went to do his water change, and that stuff you could tell was the pea but it wasn't so solid, it was very light and kind of cotton candyish in nature. Sorry, I know I probably just ruined cotton candy for you forever. :blink: At least there was some solid brown stuff as well. Over all, he is carrying himself better now. At least he doesn't have his fins clamped anymore. Anyway, he was looking at me so pitifully, I gave him a little morsel of daphnia which is also supposed to be good for constipation so hopefully that will kill two birds with one stone.

So I had the same worry about the danios. I asked specifically if they were aggressive because I was having a lot of problems with the tetras biting the betta's fins and he said that they would get along great with the tetras and leave the betta alone. I'm not so sure. I didn't have a chance to go there Saturday, so hopefully I will go in tomorrow (well today now). When I go in, I will observe them in their tank and see how rowdy they are. The last thing I want is more tankmates that don't get along. 

I did consider a smaller tank just for PTG, but my LFS guy talked me out of it. He said the tetras were picking on him because he was sick. Then again, he's the type that does unconventional things so I'm not surprised. I know some people say bettas are solitary fish, but I think it would be nice for them to have some company, as long as it's not stressful company. 

That's a good idea about asking for gravel from the LFS. Do you think their gravel is safe though? I'm afraid there might be lots of bugs floating around with all the fish that go in and out and some of their tanks are not in the best shape hygiene wise. My location is pretty good though, they usually are in there cleaning and stuff when I go in. I'll ask him what he thinks. He's always straight with me and is not after selling me stuff so I trust him. I was all ready to go in and buy a new set up for PTG when the tetras started nipping his fins and he told me to wait it out and not spend the money for nothing. I am sure his boss wouldn't have been too pleased though. ha! I'll have a word with him tom. about the cycling stuff and best thing to do. Thanks for all your suggestions!

Well, it's twenty to three here so I guess I better sleep. The kids will be up in a few hours. Ugh! G'night.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bwahaha, one of the things you'll find about this forum is it keeps you up at night.  

Daphnia is great for constipation, even better than pea. It sounds like his system is slowly getting itself back on track which is great news. Feed him lightly, a pellet here, a bit of daphnia there, until we're sure his system can handle a lot of food. As always, watch for anything unusual in the poos, like white wormy things. If he ever gets bloated or he starts to look really thin, he might need some meds but for now, it's definitely watch and wait.

A lot of people on here have had trouble with tetras nipping at betta fins so I don't think it's just because PTG was sick. They may have nipped a little more than usual but I think they would have been after him no matter what. And danios are bigger so they can take a nice chunk out if they want. I've heard rasboras are very good, peaceful tankmates. Probably the best tankmates for bettas are cory cats because they are mostly bottom dwellers and ignore everyone who ignores them. 

I'm sure PTG would be happy with tankmates, as long as they don't bug him.  The only reason I'd get a smaller tank is for temporary housing while the 10g cycled. So it wouldn't need to be fancy, just something you can heat. That way, if the gravel from the store tanks is a little unhealthy, it won't affect PTG. Most bugs and stuff would die because they wouldn't have anything to feed on (ie, ich parasites and things like that).


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

*Houston, we have a problem...*

Good Morning! I hate to start my morning (and yours) off with a complaint, but just when I thought things were getting better, we have another problem!

This morning, I figured I would give PTG a couple of those little NLS pellets and he was happily waiting there fins wide open and beautiful and when I put the pellets in, I noticed he couldn't swim to get them! He was trying his darndest to dive down after the sinking ones and was really fighting to do so. So it looks like we are having buoyancy problems now. UGH! When will it end? It looks like the belly is swollen too, but the poor thing is trying so hard to get to the bottom and I'm afraid he's going to stress himself out! If I remember correctly, epsom salts are used for bloat too? Would it be the same recipe as for constipation?

Needless to say I am feeling a bit like this -------> :frustrated:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh dear, not good. Yes, epsom salts. For swim bladder problems, I would actually up the dosage to 3 tsps per gallon. Poor PTG. This happened to my HM a while ago, it was pitiful to watch. He would try so hard and then get tired and float back up until he hit the top of the water like it was a ceiling. But the epsom salts did help and my HM is doing fine so I have lots of hope for PTG. 

If it looks like he's getting stressed, lower the water level to about 2-3 inches so he can swim easier. Now, can he swim at all? You said he couldn't swim to get them but was that just the sinking ones or was he unable to really move from one spot?

Be prepared, we may need to medicate if he has a bacterial infection.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks for responding so quickly! PTG is able to swim. It's just when he tries to get to the bottom that he really struggles and twists himself back and forth to make it happen. A couple of times I guess he got tired and flipped on his side but when I looked in at him, he was able to right himself and can swim along the top. On closer examination, his belly is very big 

Don't know what could have caused this? I gave him daphnia yesterday and he had pooped this morning although not huge. What could have caused it so rapidly? He was fine until about 2:30am last night and was actually flaring a lot for some reason. Maybe he got too much air in his gills while flaring? Also to change his water, I am trying to gently pour him into another glass and then pour him back into his QTank so as to avoid netting him. Do you think that method of change has caused this?

Just remembered: Last night when he was flaring, a couple of times only one gill would flare but then both would flare. I didn't think anything of it, and his one side is more bloated than the other. Thought it's worth a mention.

If none of the above are true, then I suppose it could be bacaterial! Oh, I have just read somewhere that making them flare might make them poop and also to up the water slowly to about 85 degrees would help the swim bladder. Any validity to these things?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

At this point, I'm thinking he has a bacterial infection since his belly is so big. These infections can be brewing for a long time but we usually don't know about them until the more physical signs appear like swim bladder problems and bloating. Flaring and the way you've been doing his water changes shouldn't have affected him like this so it all points to something requiring medication. 

Judging from what you're telling me, the infection is more on one side of his body since one side is larger. The bloating is probably being caused by a buildup of fluids in his kidneys and organs. Since he's eating, one great way of treating the infection is to use medicated food. I would suggest Seachem Kanaplex but I'm not sure how readily available it is. If you think you might be able to find it, great. If not, look for Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated Pellets. The medication in those pellets is also very effective for internal bacterial infections. Also pick up some Maracyn-II if you can find that. Continue with the epsom salts at 3 tsps but also treat with the Maracyn-II. If you can find the pellets, they'll probably need to be crushed up into smaller pieces for him.

Flaring does help them poop because they get all excited and move around a lot but if he didn't poop much when he flared last night, I'm not sure if it will help now. Definitely slowly raise the water to maybe 82 degrees to start with, warmth is good.

I've got my fingers crossed for the little guy. Hang in there, both of yiu.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah, it's just weird that it happened so suddenly. He looks great despite himself but you may be right about bacterial infection because there was definitely something off with him for the last week with first the lethargy and then clamped fins and not eating. I just thought it was getting better since he perked up and seemed almost back to normal this past few days.

Anyway, I did give a call to my friend at the LFS and told him what's up and he's about to bang his head against the wall too b/c something's always up with my tank or fish. lol So he said that I could try and rub PTG's belly to see if the bloat could be coaxed out but there's no way I would trust myself to do that. He won't even stay still when I get near him, how does he think I'm going to be able to take him out and hold him. That's a disaster waiting to happen. So when I said no way, he told me to bring him in and he would try to do it for me. I was going to go in anyway for the other stuff, so I'll bring him along with me and have Mike give it a try. He said he's done it for others. I'll also pick up the meds you suggested to have on hand if it doesn't work.

Ayayay, I have 4 kids that aren't giving me as many problems as this one fishie!!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Ok, I have a few moments to update on the swim bladder saga. 

Poor PTG was struggling all afternoon and couldn't maintain his balance. It was so sad to watch. I'm glad it is not painful for them (so I read) but you could tell he was mad he couldn't stay upright. I couldn't just stay and do nothing so I took him into my fish guy and he tried to massage the bloat out of PTG. It was weird watching that and I definitely couldn't have done it. He scooped him up and tried to massage the air out of him. He said he passed a few air bubbles but I couldn't tell. When we got home he looked just as bloated and was still floating sideways so I didn't think anything had helped. I thought I would try giving another pea a try and poor thing couldn't get the pea off the tank floor so I put it on a toothpick and he ate it up. I went out with my hubby for a couple of hours and when I came back and checked on him, he was suddenly able to swim properly again near the bottom of his QT tank! There wasn't much poop on the tank floor to speak of but something had happened because the belly was deflated too! I'm not getting overexcited though because I know sometimes it can come back but I am going to keep an eye on it and hopefully he will recover. I'm still hoping the pea will induce a big poop. Unfortunately, I was out of luck on the medicated food and Maracyn II etc. as they were having a sale on that stuff and were out of all that stuff. Hopefully his poops will go back to normal and I won't need it but I have this sinking feeling there is something amiss there. Btw, is it normal for swim bladder to just practically disappear from one hour to the next??

As for the water chemistry questions, I asked about the KH and GH stuff and the fish guy said that was more a concern for salt water tanks. I guess it wasn't his forte. They also didn't have any test kits there for that stuff that I could find. Anyway, he ended giving me 3 danios to put in the tank and said it would help to have fish in there because my water tested so clean all the time.

Anyway, that is the big update for today. Hopefully tomorrow will be better for PTG!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*scratches head* Well, I HAVE heard of bloat and SBD coming and going like that so I'm not too surprised but I am still puzzled as to the exact cause; I'm stil leaning toward internal infection. It's too bad you couldn't find the Maracyn-II but keep an eye out for it. I'd still like to treat him for an infection. Also, definitely keep him in the 3 tsps of epsom salts even though he seems okay. It's important to make sure he's still passing waste.

Uhm, your LFS guy sounds kinda . . . interesting.  Can't say I would have thought of nor tried to rub air bubbles out of a fish, especially because I'm pretty sure air bubbles don't cause swim bladder problems - pressure from the surrounding organs, tumors, and parasites are the most common causes. I think he just wanted an excuse to pet a fish. ;-) One thing to remember is when doing water changes is make sure the temperature of the water you're putting in is the same as the temp of the water you took out. That way putting PTG in won't shock him as much; temperature shock can cause temporary SBD problems.

I think you can still feed him but again, space the pellets out one at a time throughout the day. If he's having problems digesting food, too many pellets at once could cause him to bloat up fast. 

I hope the next day goes better for you and PTG as well, the both of you must be so tired of these little bumps in the road.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, the cause of the bloat was puzzling to me too! It had never happened like that before. I still agree with you though that there might be some meds requiring thing going on and I will go look for that stuff at another fish store if I have to.

Yesterday, after I fed another pea, PTG had a bit of a poo and there was this white piece about a cm long followed by more fuzzy stuff. Definitely not solid mounds so I would say poops are not normal yet. This morning however, there was more poop including the pea pretty much in its entirety. Some of it was brown but here's the thing, can fish get diarrhea???? The water in the QTank is completely cloudy. There are a couple of fuzzy wastes but it looks like the rest is all in the water. He needs a water change ASAP. The good news is that he is able to swim at the bottom now. He still struggles a tad bit when he wants to eat off the floor of the tank, but there is an 80% improvement over yesterday.

I also had one more question re: salts. I read on a random site (not a forum) yesterday that constipated fish should not be kept in Aquarium salt because that type of salt makes them retain water whereas epsom salt makes them expel water. It's so confusing when you read such conflicting info. You never know if what you are doing is right or not.

LOL, yeah my fish guy definitely is an interesting character. He's a cool guy that is willing to give his time and you can tell he's really passionate about his work and his animals. Like I said before though, he's pretty unconventional and I wasn't lying! I would never have thought about rubbing a fish's belly either and all the money in the world couldn't make me do it. You're prob right, he just wanted to pet the fish! :lol: In the end though, I think it was more the pea that helped PTG than the belly rubbing, although I'll never know if he had a good old burp and got his bloat out. hahaha Still, I like to talk to him whenever I go though because he's the one that set me up with my whole tank when I walked in there for the first time, and I really have learned a lot from him. Also, it helps not to have to explain your story all over again whenever you have issues. With him, I can just say what is going on that day and he will know what I'm talking about b/c he knows the whole history. Plus he's the type that is very take charge and will tell you exactly what you have to do rather than just saying let it be and see what happens. There's another guy there that is really experienced too but he just says leave it alone and see what happens and that drives a neurotic personality like mine nuts. 

Oh, and I totally agree about the temp thing. I tried so hard yesterday to increase his temp gradually to 80 (it's preset at 78), but I think the fact that the tank won't maintain that temp and drops back is bad. I hadn't considered that in the beginning. I think when everyone is ready to go back in the tank, I need to separate PTG in his own space. I read that the danios prefer a much cooler temp than betta's and if there is a chance of them harassing him, I want to avoid it. Then I'll have more choices for tank mates if the betta is not in there. Also regarding food, I think I will fast him today to give him a break. I'd also like to get things under control with whatever's going on internally before returning him to a regular diet.

Well, I hope things will get better. I really am tired of all the bumps in the road. :| 

Btw, how the heck are my tetras still alive??? They are not getting any better and yet they are still kicking day after day. At this point I don't want to put them back in the main tank because I don't want them passing on whatever they have. Do you think it is neon tetra disease? Also, would that be contagious to PTG? They were all in the same tank when they started getting sick.

Well, hope you are having a nice morning.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You know, I honestly don't know if fish can get diarrhea. I didn't think they could but PTG is testing that. And it makes sense - if they can get constipated, why wouldn't they be able to get the opposite? It certainly sounds like it. The white piece sounds suspiciously like a parasite. :/ At this point, you can either continue looking for Maracyn-II or treat him with General Cure, which is a parasite medication. 

Yes, constipated fish should not be in aquarium salts. Epsom salts aren't even technically salt, but magnesium sulfate. They're a laxative, even humans can use it for that purpose. If they want to drink an epsom salt mixture anyhow. Blech. 

Is your thermometer a non-adjustable one? If it gets cold where you are in winter (and since you're in Canada, I'm guessing it does), you may want to get an adjustable one. And I definitely agree with you, PTG probably should have his own tank. I just don't trust danios with longfinned fish. And then you can have the fun of a community tank. Hehe, I just got neon tetras for mine but they're still in quarantine. I can't wait until I can put them in, though.

Are your tetras pale? I think Neon Tetra Disease causes them to die pretty quickly though. Weird. Those are some hardy tetras. If they do have Neon Tetra Disease, I don't think it's contagious to PTG but I'll doublecheck on that.

I hope things get better for you. You and PTG are putting up one heck of a fight.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah, who knew the bowel movements of fish would become a daily topic of conversation in my life? LOL

I actually called the big fish store we have around here - one that only deals with fish and a few reptiles and asked the guy in the fish room about PTG's issues. He didn't seem to think the white, fuzzy poop was parasitic or bacterial. He said if it was a parasite, the poop would be white and long and stringy. 

The bad news is that it seems PTG is starting to "bob" again. He is not as bad as yesterday, and he is not flopping on his side, but he is struggling to get to the bottom of the tank again and he is also "biting" at the surface of the water and having bubbles come out of his gills again. I'm afraid he will end up as bloated as yesterday. :-( Big fish store guy said that the most likely cause of the bloat is the constipation and advised me to cut back on feeding for at least a week, even two. Before I talked to him, I gave PTG a small bit of pea again in hopes it would clear out some more and then I will fast him for a bit. 

As for the epsom salts, I never knew someone could drink them. Ew! I always figured you put them in your bath to relax your muscles. What's interesting is during my second pregnancy, I got really bad blood pressure problems (toxemia) and they put me on a magnesium sulfate drip to prevent me from going into shock or having a stroke (yeah, it was that dangerously high! :shock I had no idea that is what epsom salts were. Man, was that a terrible feeling to be on that drip. It made me so wonky and out of it.

So anyway, I don't think the heater will let the water get below 78 degrees. Once it is colder here in winter (and you are right, I am in Ontario which can get extremely cold) I am sure the heater will just be working more often. Right now it is mostly off and only occasionally I will see the red light come on for a couple of minutes if the water drops below 78. If I see that it is not able to keep up, I will get an adjustable one. The only bad thing about it is that you can't turn it up higher if you want to treat illness. 

I wonder if PTG can live in a wall aquarium or I can keep him in the 10g and move the other fish to the wall one if I get one. I saw some pictures of those and they are awesome looking. That is what I want my next endeavour in this hobby to be. I think the only drawback is that it might be hard to clean being such a narrow space.

Yes, my tetras are losing colour by the day. At first they seemed to be improving a bit on the rid ich but today they are breathing really fast again and won't eat. I don't know what they have but considering the other ones knocked off so fast, it's a wonder these guys keep hanging on. Somehow, I have a feeling they will not make it back into the main tank though. That's great that you got some too! They are beautiful fish for sure. I loved their brilliant colour and how their eyes pierce in the water at night. How long do you quarantine new fish for?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> As for the water chemistry questions, I asked about the KH and GH stuff and the fish guy said that was more a concern for salt water tanks. I guess it wasn't his forte. They also didn't have any test kits there for that stuff that I could find. Anyway, he ended giving me 3 danios to put in the tank and said it would help to have fish in there because my water tested so clean all the time.


While this is true, it's fairly important for ALL types of aquariums. If your KH is zero then your pH will fluctuate however the heck it wants, which is dangerous for fish or natural planted tanks...

That's too bad for him, but in any case that is unfortunate that you couldn't find any kits.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow, SVC, that must have been scary during your second pregnancy. *gulp* Glad you made it through okay. 

I'm just not sure I like how PTG's buoyancy problems come and go. :/ Hopefully the teeny bit of pea will help again but, uhm, how can he be constipated if he has diarrhea? And it sure seems like he has diarrhea. I'm confused. PTG, stop confusing me!  Anyway, do fast him for a few days. No food, not even a pea. See if that helps him. 

Those wall aquariums are neat. I would put PTG in there; I believe one other person on the forum has a betta in one of those wall aquariums. I assume they're the long narrow picture-frame kind, not the little round bowl one. It might be hard to clean. I'm not sure. I think they ARE pretty narrow.

Okay, usually you want to quarantine new fish for at least a week, but most experts recommend up to a month. I was bad. I needed the tetra's quarantine tank for a new betta so I put them in their 10g after only two and a half days. Cross your fingers that they aren't carrying any diseases.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Bahamut - Yes, I agree that it's unfortunate I could get neither test kits or information that day. Well, I guess one person can't be an expert at everything but I also think it was crazy busy in the store so I didn't get the undivided attention I usually get on a weekday. He just threw something at me about the hardness not really being an issue and something about buffers for pH which completely went over my head. I am attempting to read up more on all the KH/GH stuff myself but between the problems my betta is giving me, and my kids climbing the walls, it's a challenge. Now that they're in bed, I will try to read up a bit.

Incidentally, I thought I'd check the tank water again, and the results were:

pH - 7.8
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0 

It's so bizzarre to me that I am never seeing any nitrates or nitrites at all!
Also, it seems that my pH that once used to be very acidic is now showing on the alkaline side which is strange because yesterday when LFS tested it, he said it was slighly acidic. I did do a low range pH test and that came out at 7.6 so I then did the High range one and it was a definite colour match for 7.8. I'm totally confused with all this discrepancy. My seachem metre that is suctioned to the tank is on beige which is like 5.8 or something but then I don't put much stock in that one. It says its only good for about 3 months and although it hasn't been even 2 months, it's probably no good. I think I'll take it out and put it in my tap water to see if the colour at least changes b/c we know that one is definitely on the high range.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The low range test will top out at 7.6 if your pH is higher than that. And I tried those little meter things that stick on the tank and all it did was provide one more thing for my betta to catch his fins on. :/


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Sakura, yes indeed it was scary but I was lucky enough not to know what was going on until the day it all happened. They basically sent me to hospital and told me I was having my baby that day as that was the only way to "cure" me. Apparently all my organs were shutting down, and I had no idea. It happened very fast from one dr.'s app't to the next. Thankfully we were all ok and in fact, it was my 5 year old daughter who was born then. She gave me problems while I was pregnant with her, and now her fish is giving me more gray hairs!:shake:

So speaking of Mr. PrincessTG, I don't like these buoyancy issues one bit either. Aside from that he seems fine and is not lethargic like he originally was but I think I am definitely going to treat him with something that will cover internal bacterial/parasitic problems. The more I research, the more clues there are to say this is not just a constipation problem. First of all, he is more bloated on one side than the other, and he hasn't been eating all that much either. For several days last week he didn't even eat at all, and aside from a couple of pellets a few days ago, all he's had are a couple of tiny sections of pea yesterday and today. As you also pointed out, it doesn't make sense for a fish that had diarrhea to be constipated unless of course he has Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Sheesh, that's all I need now. Mine would be the only betta known to man to have IBS! Indeed he shall fast and I will get him the right meds tomorrow. I think I'll go to the Big Fish store as they will have more selection and stock I think.

The wall aquariums I am talking about are the picture frame ones, not the port hole bowls on a wall. I think they are so cool to look at and yes, the ones I saw are only about 4.5" deep so you couldn't put any big fish in there. They're about 5 feet long so there would be a lot of swimming space, but not much to turn around for a big size fish. That is a ways off though, I need to get one tank under control first!

LOL, you sound just like me. I have very little patience too when I want to see a result from something. I don't blame you for putting the tetras in early. I actually put my danios right in the tank after I acclimated them for half an hour. I was hesitant with all the craziness in my tank and not knowing whether my tank has something in there, let alone if the danios are healthy but I had nowhere else to put them so in they went. I guess the whole purpose of getting them now was to have someone in the tank so it wouldn't just completely lose any "cycle" it possibly had. They were really hyper at first but today they are just hanging out near the back. I hope that doesn't mean bad news. In a way if something happens to them, we know something is seriously wrong in my tank b/c danios are supposed to be really hardy! I will be saying a prayer for your tetras, that they are healthy! Do you have anyone else in there with them?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow, SVC, that was a close call you had with your pregnancy. But I definitely laughed when you said your daughter gave you troubles then and it's her fish giving you troubles now. 

Being bloated more on side says to me that one of his kidneys is building up a lot of fluid from an infection. But wow, that would just be too weird to have a fish with IBS. :shock: Maracyn-II is probably going to be our most effective weapon but it might not hurt to grab Maracyn I as well. Although many infections are gram negative, the Maracyn I will treat a gram positive infection as well. You can use both Maracyns at once. I'm inclined to agree with the big fish store guy that if he had parasites, they would be longer and stringier. And we would have been seeing them all along. I mean, he may have a few parasites but I don't think that's the main cause of his problems.

Yup, I'm so impatient. :lol: It takes all my will power to quarantine a fish for a week, I can't imagine trying to do it for a whole month. So far I've been lucky, none of my fish have been sick. Right now I have 3 platies and 3 panda cory cats in the 10g along with the 6 new tetras. They're beautiful but driving me nuts because every time my mother comes in to see what they look like, they're hiding at the back of the tank and she can't see them. >.< Then she leaves and ten minutes later they're out in the front swimming around. 

Danios are supposed to be super hardy, yes. Maybe they're just hanging out because they don't have any other fish to chase and they're bored. It's hard to tell but you are right, if they get sick it might mean there's something wrong with the tank in general.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> Bahamut - Yes, I agree that it's unfortunate I could get neither test kits or information that day. Well, I guess one person can't be an expert at everything but I also think it was crazy busy in the store so I didn't get the undivided attention I usually get on a weekday. He just threw something at me about the hardness not really being an issue and something about buffers for pH which completely went over my head. I am attempting to read up more on all the KH/GH stuff myself but between the problems my betta is giving me, and my kids climbing the walls, it's a challenge. Now that they're in bed, I will try to read up a bit.
> 
> Incidentally, I thought I'd check the tank water again, and the results were:
> 
> ...



I'm glad to see that it is at least stable with your tap and test bucket pH. Continue to test it every day or every other day and watch for more crashes. Stability is more important than the actual value, my water is 8.2ish.

It takes several weeks for bacteria to move in, which is why the guy at the LFS recommended you to park some hardy fish in there to cycle it.

I agree with Sakura, those test meter things don't really do anything (as far as I can see) so you can remove it if you wish. I know I took mine out because HongBo kept bumping into it and hacking his fins up -__-


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Oops I didn't answer the KH/GH question.

In a nutshell:

KH, alkalinity is how stable the water is to resist changes in pH. 
High KH = strong resistance, stable water with stable pH
Low KH = weak resistance, unstable water with fluctuating pH

A buffer solution is what gives the water its KH. I won't get into the hardcore science of it but just think that: adding a buffer solution (they sell them at LPS/LFS) will make your KH stronger (usually).

GH is water hardness. That stuff you hear about how hard water creates gross calcium deposits on taps/sinks/tubs and how soft water makes soap lather better.

Hardness is caused by ions floating around in your water. These (to a moderate amount) are good for YOU and your fish (just not for taps) because they contain necessary metals that our body (and fishes' bodies) require to function.

Many houses have a water softener installed in their house. Depending on the way it softens your water (most popular/cheap method is salt ionization), it removes ions differently. If you feel that your water is too hard/too soft, some LFS/LPS (not mine, though xD) sell little pockets to increase or decrease the hardness of your water.

I have little or no proof but only speculation that severely softened water from a water softener (NOT naturally soft water) is detrimental to fish health either because:
- it removes too many ions, pretty much like distilled water, it is unhealthy
- salt from the ionizer gets into the water for your fish, and can harm their systems


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good morning Sakura, how are the tetras doing? PTG is the same. Still floating although not as much on his side as yesterday. There was a really small pea coloured poop on the tank bottom today - oh and he's just done another one of the same colour but a bit bigger and looks more of a normal consistency. Looks like his belly got ever so slighly smaller now but he's still buoyant. Maybe if he fasts for a few days, he'll be able to get it all out if constipation plays any part here at all. I still plan on getting meds today. It's always good to have stuff on hand because I'm finding with fish, you always need something or another.

Oh, btw, I am knocking on all the wood around me here at you saying none of your fish ever get sick. Don't say that! Every time I have ever even_ thought_ to myself that PTG is looking great today, boom something goes wrong immediately after that. lol Yeah, I'm a tad superstitious.  Seriously though, I am sure your fish are all well because of your great care of them. It is too funny that they hide whenever your mom comes in to look at them. My mom thinks I have lost my mind at this point. She lives with us and she sees me obsessing over PTG and just shakes her head at me. She is of the variety that says "it's just a fish". Oh, and she had the nerve to tell me to flush my tetras down the toilet the other day. Serioulsy? They look pretty bad, and maybe it is bad of me to continue to let them live if they are miserable, but I don't even have the heart to euthanize them, let alone flush them into the sewer system while they're still alive! 

As for my danios, they are still hanging around the back of the tank behind PTG's little hospital room. Maybe they are fascinated with him. I hope PTG improves soon. I think all his problems started after being in that small place. Maybe the difference in pH and stress of being poured in and out to change water caused this buoyancy problem. I will report back when I go to the pet store later. I'll find a different location that might have some good options for treatment.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good Morning to you too Bahamut. 

I suppose it is a good thing that my pH is now more balanced with the rest of the water sources. I will continue to test daily to stay on top of things. I guess that indicates that there was a reason the pH was crashing before. Could the ammonia being high have had anything to do with it? Something stressed those fish out and caused the deaths and sicknesses.

I also agree with you regarding the suction cup metres. They are pretty useless. I put the pH one in a cup of tap water last night, and we know my pH is around 8.0 for my source water and it still sits at that beige colour. It should have been dark red by now. The ammonia one was more reliable but lately it is showing safe when I have 0.25ppm ammonia. That one is supposed to last a year. I knew they looked gimmicky when I bought them but I thought it would be a way to keep track roughly of the ammonia. I'm glad I got the pair on sale at least. PTG also liked to go behind them and get stuck there. 

Also, I appreciate the info on the KH and GH. I will see when I'm at the other fish store today, if they have test kits for that. Since they have extensive salt water fish and systems too, I think they will have those kits on hand. Maybe that will help shed light on things too.

Regarding GH, the good news is that I don't have a water softener in my house and I guess my water is pretty hard because I have to deal with that white calcium build up on my fridge's water dispenser tray and spout. I also think my fish guy mentioned that the area I live in has hard water. 

It also makes sense that the salt from water softeners would not be good for the fish and I have heard that distilled water is not good for them either. Btw, in the case of PTG's buoyancy issues, would reverse osmosis water help him? I wouldn't mind picking up a jug to use for water changes to get him over this issue if it will help.

Thanks again for the insightful information! I am learning so much! :-D


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

About to head out to the fish store now - just an interesting observation before I go... when I was suctioning out PTG's poop from the Qtank, I dumped it into a small container to get a look at it. It disintegrated when I pumped it out and I saw a couple of those white flakes that I was talking about before that were floating around my tank. :/ I am now convinced more than ever that there is something internal with this fish. There were lots of these flakes floating up whenever he was still in the tank, especially coming from under that clam aerator! Methinks, I better get him treated before this gets much worse!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Reverse Osmosis water, as far as I know, is just as bad as distilled water. Most people who have SALT WATER aquariums MIX RO/DI water with their premixed salt solutions because corals and anemones are very sensitive to our tapwater.

I'm no expert on RO water but judging by the name...

He will also need to be re-acclimatized to the RO water then back to your tap water, it would be better just to ditch the RO water idea, IMO.

A lot of people use epsom salt to cure SBD issues, but you'd have to check with others for that one.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hmm, ok nix the RO water then. I guess I'll stick to regular water and treat it. You're right Bahamut, about not switching the fish from one to the other to the other, not to mention what that would do with the whole pH issues!

Speaking of which, I made it to the Fish store and back and they had the GH/KH kit. When I was speaking to one of the fish guys there, he suggested that my ammonia being out of whack was the reason for my pH levels bouncing around. He said if the cycling process wasn't allowed to happen properly such as in my case doing too many water changes and having too clean of water, that would cause a drop in pH. He advised me to stop changing the water for now, and let it run it's course and my pH would stabilize. That said, I couldn't resist still picking up the test kit so I have some numbers for you.

I tested regular (untreated) tap water and the main tank water.

Tap water

KH = 6
GH = 8

Tank Water

KH = 3
GH = 11

I have no clue what all this means but there is a definite difference between my tank and tap numbers. Hopefully this means something to you.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't even......FFFUUUU

what do you have in your tank again? 
- What kind of filter?
- Gravel?
- Fake plants/caves, etc.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey there Sakura, I'm back from my fish store trip and I did manage to pick up some meds for PTG. Upon my conversation with the resident fish guy, he suggested I get something with metronidazole in it and I happened to find an 8 pack of General Cure capsules that have this as the main ingredient. They said this would be fine to treat for parasites. As for treating bacterial infection, the guy said it was very unlikely PTG's problem was bacterial. He said if it were, by now there would have been some outward sign of it aside from just the bloating. He also agreed on fasting him for a few days. Oh, and the General cure says it can be used in conjunction with antibacterial medicines which is good to know if need be.

Only problem is after I get home, as I'm trying to read the instructions for dosing, I see this message on the back of the package that says "This product contains a chemical known to the state of California to cause cancer." WTH??? Is this even safe to use? :shock:


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> I don't even......FFFUUUU ... huh??? lol
> 
> what do you have in your tank again?
> - What kind of filter? Tetra Whisper 10i has a black bio filter and an activated carbon bag.
> ...


 Yes, fake plants, two aerators (one clam shell that open and closes, and one LED lighted bubble ring), and one little princess castle cave thingie that was my daughter's choice. Also a submersible heater (50w).

Am I not doing the test properly? Were the numbers not making sense? I followed the instructions -- 5 ml of sample water, then one drop at a time, capping and shaking to observe colour before adding each drop. Repeat same procedure for both KH and GH tests until colour turns to the proper shade for each respective test. :dunno:


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

No no I don't doubt your ability to do the test, I was just going OMGWTH at the results.

Your tap water is fine, but your tank KH is ridiculously low. Have you done the 100% water change? There is definitely something in your tank that is just breaking everything


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha, well *I* doubt my ability to do the tests right. It's always difficult matching the colours properly unless they're dead on. In this case, at least it was quite an obvious colour change to indicate the test was complete which is why I figured I had to have done it right.;-)

I never did the 100% water change because we decided against it after you found out my whole info. I had done a 50% change before you saw my stats and I did another almost 50 the day I put the danios in so does that count or do I have to do a total water change again? Btw, could any of my decorations cause this? They're all "made for aquarium" decorations althought there was this one thing that stunk really bad right out of the package. The guy at the store said it didn't matter but I remember thinking if it smelled this bad, could it be safe? I think I added it in about a month ago though and it's not like the fish got sick right after that but it is worth a mention...

Do you think treating with meds in the past could have caused this problem in my water? I know meds can do a number on things but usually once they are removed by the carbon they are supposed out of the water. Lord knows I'm not the only one to medicate my tank so I can't think that would be it. I have used Rid Ich in the early days of my tank, and then triple sulfa a couple of weeks ago. They are both not supposed to hurt the nitrifying bacteria.

Now that my pH is stabilizing in my tank, should I not let it run a while longer and see whether the KH stabilizes also?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

SVC said:


> Hey there Sakura, I'm back from my fish store trip and I did manage to pick up some meds for PTG. Upon my conversation with the resident fish guy, he suggested I get something with metronidazole in it and I happened to find an 8 pack of General Cure capsules that have this as the main ingredient. They said this would be fine to treat for parasites. As for treating bacterial infection, the guy said it was very unlikely PTG's problem was bacterial. He said if it were, by now there would have been some outward sign of it aside from just the bloating. He also agreed on fasting him for a few days. Oh, and the General cure says it can be used in conjunction with antibacterial medicines which is good to know if need be.
> 
> Only problem is after I get home, as I'm trying to read the instructions for dosing, I see this message on the back of the package that says "This product contains a chemical known to the state of California to cause cancer." WTH??? Is this even safe to use? :shock:


Didn't even know about the cancer thing. :shock: Uhm, wear glove, don't breathe it in?

What did the guy at the fish store thing it might be? I'm just not sure if a betta who seems to have diarrhea can be constipated too. He is right that usually there would be other signs such as dropsy and lethargy unless the infection is still pretty mild. But if it's mild then there's no reason why PTG would be bloated. *scratches head* PTG, you're confusing me with your conflicting symptoms! Urgh, if it's not constipation and it's not a bacterial infection, that leaves parasites and a tumor. It seems unlikely that it's parasites because we really haven't seen that much evidence, although he did pass that one whitish string that seemed like it might be a parasite. But a tumor is not good. Ayiyiyi.

Either way, hang on to the General Cure for now and let's see if the fasting helps. Total fasting, no matter how much he begs. It will be hard to resist but you've gotta try. 

If it does come down to a bacterial infection, metronidazole is the best medicine but it has to be taken internally. It doesn't do much via solution. I believe that means you would have to break open the capsules and mix the metro with frozen food. Did you open the package? If not, keep it that way in case you need to return them. To take metro internally, the best product is Jungle Labs Anti-Parasite Medicated pellets.

My my, PTG, you're becoming a lot of work for your momma. Hurry up and get better so she can relax!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good morning Bahamut, 

I have some more water readings for you. I did the complete work up on the tank this morning and I have:

Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
pH - 7.8
GH - 12
KH - 4

At least KH seems to be up one degree from yesterday, not sure if that means anything.

Also, tank seems the tiniest bit cloudy today. Could that be a bacterial bloom starting and maybe kicking this cycle in the right direction? If I'm right, then maybe we will start to see some nitrate/ite movement soon although does that mean first ammonia will climb again? Ugh :roll:


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Sakura, how are you today? 

I think I am going to wear gloves and a mask before touching that General Cure stuff! I should read everything in the store first. I then did some research online and saw a discussion where people were saying it can apparently give the fish neurological damage?  I think I will be returning it! Thankfully, I didn't get overzealous and administer it first thing when I got home!

So when I explained the happenings in my tank over the last week and a half, the guy at the fish store concluded that this all started from ammonia poisoning. He said that if I had levels in the tank up to 2ppm, then that would definitely not be good for the fish. I tend to agree b/c along with the tetras gasping, PTG was also breathing heavy and very listless for a day or two. When he finally got out of the tank, he improved greatly (eating, energy). I guess this swim bladder is a side effect of all that stress? In my research, I found that basically the root cause of 99% of fish disease stems from bad water quality and that many fish may have parasites or something inside of them but when something like this happens and their immunity is weakened, the parasites gain the upper hand and are able to take hold of the fish and start causing problems.

So, he highly doubted it was bacterial as he said that was rare. He never mentioned a tumour, and concluded it was likely parasitic especially with the poops that are not normal. He said that not all parasites would make long and stringy poop necessarily but he fact that the colour was off and it was like diarrhea told him something was off.

My take (albeit very novice) on the whole thing is this; I doubt it would be a tumour because I think there may have been signs something was not well before he got bloated. Also, the fact that the bloat went away and came back tells me that it is not a static situation in there. That points more to constipation as when he emptied his bowel, he deflated. Don't ask my why he then has diarrhea because that is throwing a monkey wrench in that theory. Also, if it was a tumour, I don't think it would shrink and then grow back in a day. I think this is transient and/or fixable but we have to pinpoint the reason and treat accordingly. Right now I am leaning, as you suggested, to getting medicated food. I also had my doubts about an in water medication treating something internal. If the med food doesn't work, maybe I will go the Maracyns route. I don't like pumping him full of stuff but I don't want him to end up with dropsy if this lingers too long. So far he still looks great aside from the balance issue. He even had another poop yesterday and it was whitish/clear and looked ike a grain of rice. He hadn't been fed for two days so it wasn't pea coming out. Final analysis, I do believe this all started from the ammonia problems. It wasn't a coincidence that the other fish started dying and got sick too. What do you say? Feel free to totally disagree - I'm sure you know wayyy more than me about fish keeping!

All this said, I am posting a couple of pics. What do you think about the colouring on his face? I see some gray kind of discolouration and in the other picture it looks silvery. Does this look like a fungus or something or is it just from him rubbing his face against the Qtank trying to stay upright?

All I know is, PTG better look back on this and appreciate it! :-?

BTW, don't you LOVE the princess sticker on the tank? I couldn't convince my daughter not to put them there! THey go all across the top of the tank. hehe Poor PTG no wonder he's always sick, he probably gets made fun of for his name and house decor by the others. Alright, now I'm just rambling...:shake:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aww, PTG has such a cute face.  The gray parts look normal, actually. A lot of red bettas have grayish gill covers and gray bits on their heads. In fact, I'd say pretty much all of them do to some degree. At least that's one thing you don't have to worry about. 

Well, as for PTG's diagnosis, the only thing I disagree with is that bacterial infections are rare. They're actually a lot more common than one would think and a big cause of dropsy. That said, I do believe you and your LFS fish guy are absolutely right. Pretty much all fishy health problems do stem from poor water quality because it lowers their immune system and they become susceptible to things they once could fight off, including bacterial infections. An internal bacterial infection stemming from poor water quality may occur because of the effect ammonia has on the internal organs; the compromised organs then become infected by bacteria and voila, a brewing internal bacterial infection. A lot of things are often dormant in tanks all the time (like ich) but it's when a fish becomes stressed and the immune system is compromised that they become sick. So your research there is definitely correct. Huzzah! It's also true not all parasites are white and stringy, although the majority of them are. Some bettas do poop out small segments of the worms instead of most of the worm itself. The poop he has recently would suggest he's passing small segments. 

Either way, bacterial or parasite, I would definitely try to find those pellets. They may need to be crushed up and possibly soaked in garlic juice to make them tasty but they will help tremendously. If he refuses to eat them (and I have heard they don't taste too good), then do try Maracyn. Or Kanaplex if you can find that. Kanaplex is also given internally by mixing it with partially thawed frozen food to make a paste that is then fed. 

I certainly hope PTG's troubles are close to an end and he'll be back to 100% for you soon. You've really gone above and beyond taking care of him and you're so right, he'd better darn well appreciate it. :-D

Have a good day, SVC, talk to you soon.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Aww, thanks Sakura, I think PTG is pretty cute too! I peer down at her in her hospital tank and she just looks up at me with those puppy err fishy eyes. lol Thanks for saying I have gone above and beyond with him. I feel like he is a living creature and if I have accepted him in my care, he deserves to have every chance to live happy and healthy! Besides, he's my first pet as an adult. That said, you can imagine how I was with my first child! I think I saw tooooo much of the ER during her first year. I'm happy to say I have now settled down some now. 

You know, I tend to agree with you on the bacterial infections thing. I think bacteria are every bit as opportunistic as parasites when immunity is compromised. I don't see why it couldn't be bacterial. I think the problem with internet research is that there is just way too much information out there, and not all of it is based on fact. A lot of the things people say are based on opinion and their own logic so I think you kind of have to think about the science behind things a little when sussing these things out.

So, as you said, I will be on a mission to find those pellets today and I think the garlic juice trick is a good one. Hopefully it will work and my little betta baby will be good as new. If not, I will get the other things you mentioned. He keeps passing these tiny whitish/clearish poops sothey could very well be segments of worms (ew).

I'm glad to know the face coloration is at least normal and he was trying to swim a little lower in his water this afternoon. Still popping back up but not lying on his side.

So, I'm sorry to have dragged you into this drama for so long! Just because my world is revolving around PTG doesn't mean yours has to as well. You have been far too kind as it is addressing all my worries and I really appreciate it! 

Have a great day yourself and hope your tetras are still doing well! Mine seem to be getting feistier again - wow funny tetras, who'd a thought they would still be alive!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> Only problem is after I get home, as I'm trying to read the instructions for dosing, I see this message on the back of the package that says "This product contains a chemical known to the state of California to cause cancer." WTH??? Is this even safe to use? :shock:


(Sorry to butt in, lol)

When I treated my goldies for ich, malachite green ALSO causes cancer in humans. Just wear gloves and try not to snort it or get it anywhere near your mouth/eyes xD



SVC said:


> Haha, well *I* doubt my ability to do the tests right. It's always difficult matching the colours properly unless they're dead on. In this case, at least it was quite an obvious colour change to indicate the test was complete which is why I figured I had to have done it right.;-)
> 
> I never did the 100% water change because we decided against it after you found out my whole info. I had done a 50% change before you saw my stats and I did another almost 50 the day I put the danios in so does that count or do I have to do a total water change again? Btw, could any of my decorations cause this? They're all "made for aquarium" decorations althought there was this one thing that stunk really bad right out of the package. The guy at the store said it didn't matter but I remember thinking if it smelled this bad, could it be safe? I think I added it in about a month ago though and it's not like the fish got sick right after that but it is worth a mention...
> 
> ...


I have heard rumours of decorations causing problems in tanks, but I have never encountered such problems. If you wanted to conduct that experiment, you'd have to put all your decorations into separate buckets and test water quality in all the buckets (I personally wouldn't have enough buckets xD)

As far as I know, meds should TECHNICALLY not cause problems in your tank, because then that means it will be bad for a lot of other people too. However I don't doubt that there are probably medications that require a full water change and claim that the activated carbon in your filter will remove it.

Also no, lol, removing 50% twice is not the same as a 100%. That is just secondary dilution, which is why 100% changes are necessary in 1 Gallon bowls (unrelated, just example).

According to your new readings, you're getting there. IDEAL KH should be around 7-10 dKH. I guess just continue to switch out water, see what happens.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

You can add sodium bicarbonate if you're impatient, lol.

I just don't know how much to add...at least not in aquarium circumstances 

*huddles in corner reminded of first year chemistry* Q__Q


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> (Sorry to butt in, lol) Please, never be sorry!
> 
> When I treated my goldies for ich, malachite green ALSO causes cancer in humans. Just wear gloves and try not to snort it or get it anywhere near your mouth/eyes xD Yikes! I treated with that blue staining stuff (Rid Ich) once and had a mini accident where it ran all down my arm. However, that formula contains "zinc free chloride salt of malachite green and formaldehyde". I think this is the less sinister version of malachite green? Anyway, I am sure one exposure is not going to be harmful - I hope...
> 
> ...


 Sounds like a plan. Hopefully, I will have a proper tank soon!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> You can add sodium bicarbonate if you're impatient, lol. Actually, I'll refrain from adding things in the tank for now. I think impatience is what got me to where I am today! hmph
> 
> I just don't know how much to add...at least not in aquarium circumstances
> 
> *huddles in corner reminded of first year chemistry* Q__Q


 Ahhh science class. I will never forget Mrs. Ford in high school. She scared the life out of everyone in class! I think she also threatened to throw stuff at the people that couldn't remember the periodic table. :shock:


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Ok, I just had to share. I went out today to buy some medication for PTG. I went to Wal mart thinking they might have some and they didn't. They also had another pet smart there so I went in and they also didn't have the medicated food, BUT, the girl there was so nice she gave me a baggie full of both anti parasitic and anti bacterial medicated food for free. She brought it out from the back and said they used it for their new fish. I think there is enough to last me a year! She said I could feed it until the poop returned to normal and then once in a while preventatively. There is no problem with feeding two different kinds together. She said it would ensure whatever was in there got flushed out. This made me so happy! Tomorrow, I will start PTG on it. Fingers crossed that it helps.

Also, crazy me went out and bought another aquarium! I think I mentioned the wall aquariums that I liked. Well, I saw ones that I really liked online and they were priced pretty reasonably and the place was right across from the Big Fish store I went to before so I went in and bought one. Trust me, this time I will go into things with more knowledge and patience. Hopefully cycling will go smoother. I think I should try fishless cycling. Here is a picture of the aquarium. It's only 4.5" deep and hangs on the wall like a plasma tv. Yes, I know cleaning will be a big pain but they claim the maintenance is minimal. They had a panoramic model too which I really liked the look of but I found the actual glass to be too narrow. As a whole it looked gorgeous narrow and long, but what's the point if there is only a 7" space to view the fish so I went with the more rectangular one.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

One other person on the forum has one of those, sunnydawnie. They're pretty stunning, aren't they? Will this be PTG's new home when he's recovered?

And I'm glad she gave you the pellets, that's great! Now hopefully PTG will eat them. Come on, PTG, take your medicine!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks! I do think they look fantastic. I can't wait to get it all set up. I'm not sure where PTG will go once he's better. The tank I have now is 10 gallons, and my new wall tank is only 9.3 gallons but it looks a lot bigger spatially speaking. I might leave PTG in the 10 gallon and put the new fish (I'm looking at some swordfish and some white mollies) in the wall tank. I think the schooling fish will look nice in there. PTG can have his own tank to himself. I think it will be easier to take care of him if he has issues again. The wall tank is not easy to constantly be digging around in. Hopefully he won't get lonely. If he does, I'l try to find some calm tankmates that won't bother him and vice versa.

Speaking of getting better, this fish is driving me insane. I just walked in to check on him a few minutes ago, and lo and behold, he is swimming around the bottom of the Qtank, like nothing was ever wrong with his buoyancy! What gives?? How is this bloat coming and going like this? He didn't even have any poop since this afternoon so it is not like he cleared his intestines. Anyway, I am going to start the medicated food tomorrow regardless, although I have a theory about how he might have relieved the air out of his system. I have his QT clipped to the side of my big tank with a fancy binder clipper -you know those heavy duty kind of paper clip things with the clip part being black and the tabs you squeeze being silver? Well the ones I have, have these solid round discs as the parts you squeeze and I had one of those pieces folded down into his tank so it wouldn't interfere with the lid staying on. Well, all day today, I noticed he was wedging himself between the clip and the tank wall. I think he was trying to squeeze the air out or something because he would swim around, take a breath and go right back under there. He must have succeeded and is now just great and he was flaring at me like the dickens! I think he's really mad being confined there. It's like he got his swim power back and now resents being there. Such personality! I hope the flaring doesn't cause him to trap more air though. Knowing him, he'll be bloated again tomorrow. I really hope it won't be a recurring things. Keep your fingers crossed. 

Btw, I will check out that profile of the person you mentioned that has a wall tank too. It would be cool to see what their experience is with it. I will also update about it once I get it running. Might be a while though!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Ugh, PTG is back to floating again! :evil: Yesterday when he was ok, he was flaring *a lot. *Could that be a reason for this? Maybe when he's flaring, he's letting air in through his gills or something? It's right after that that he started floating again... last time too. Of course there must be something initially wrong because it never happened before when he flared but still.

Anyway, my house smells like garlic, here goes round one of medicated,garlicky food. Wish me luck!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:lol: I love your theory about how he's getting the extra air out! It could very well be, it's so hard to know with these fish. So maybe you will need to take him into your crazy LFS guy and have him rub his belly once a week. :lol: You know, the strangest part is until now I've never heard of extra air causing problems with the swim bladder which is also known as the air sac. Ironic, isn't it? :-D PTG could be blazing new trails in the fish health department. I've heard of fish having chronic swim bladder problems but usually they don't get the bloat with it so hopefully PTG doesn't have a chronic problem. 

I will definitely look forward to hearing how the medicated food works. Hopefully he'll eat it.

Oh, and so far my tetras are doing great. They're so gorgeous, I'm thinking of getting a few more. And your tetras are amazing. They're tenacious little survivors, aren't they? I hope they make full recoveries. A school of tetras would look great in that wall tank. *eyes wall space in hopes of being able to fit new tank in*


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha, maybe I'm just one of those fish mommies that thinks my fish is a genius. lol Apparently, it didn't work for long though. :-( Seriously though, I just used basic logic about the sucking too much air thing. Although my crazy fish guy did tell me that sometimes it can be caused by gulping too much air but that shouldn't be the case for air breathers like bettas who are supposed to breathe air from the surface. Oh, and I won't be taking PTG in for a belly rub any time soon. I think that was a one time experimental treatement and it didn't work and I don't want to cause him harm by getting his slime coat rubbed off and then catching some other kind of infection. Hopefully he isn't a chronic floater. He wasn't before let's hope this incident doesn't make him one.

I tried the medicated food today, soaked in a little garlic/tank juice. He jumped at it but couldn't seem to get it to stay in his mouth and the stupid pellets are sinking kinds that he can't get at. I think he managed to get one pellet and bits and pieces of another so at least that's something. We'll see. Also, he seems not to be interested in the pellet once it is disintergrated into smaller flakes. He only likes them round. Spoiled PTG - He's such a..... princess. lol I tried putting them on the toothpick but it just falls apart.

I'm glad your tetras are doing great. They really are beautiful fish. I would love to put more in my wall tank but the background that came with it is very blue (supposed to be an australian reef background or something) and I don't think they will really show up against it. Also, I think they are a little delicate. Never mind the two here that are still alive despite nuclear warfare. lol I want to keep fish that are more hardy so that I don't have to keep going in there as it will be difficult in such a small space. Seriously though, I don't blame you for eyeing wall space. They also have round and square ones that don't take up as much space.... :lol:


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Just wondering, since eating the medicated pellets this morning, PTG's belly has gotten HUGE. Seems like the swelling is directly related to eating? 

Oh, and a question about the tetras. When I look at them, it looks like their spines are a bit curved up. Of course, I have read about fish TB and needless to say I am paranoid about it because I have gotten plenty of water all over my hands. What is the likelihood of fish TB? Is it common? That said, it kind of looks like the tetras still have that gold dust look on them. Can velvet have the same symptoms (curving of spine) as fish TB, and wouldn't either of those killed them by now?

This is for you Bahamut, 

I tested the tank again this morning and it seems like my KH is back down to 3 -?) and GH is 11.

Still no nitrates/nitrites and pH is at 7.8. Ammonia is still 0.25 but maybe a touch higher? Kind of between the two shades of lime green and my tank is getting cloudy again.

One other thing, I noticed that when you hold the vial of liquid up and look underneath, the colour looks different than when you just look at the vial straight on. I'm assuming you would just look at it head on since the instructions don't say otherwise. I guess I'm just grasping at straws because I'm never getting any differing readings. Trying to find user error, I suppose.


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi, I was just reading through your pages here about PTG, and I wanted to mention that I thought in one of your first pictures of him, that he had a gold color along his spine. I know that you have mentioned velvet with your tetras, have you checked PTG to see if he has this also? I am currently battling velvet with my CT, he was sick when I brought him home nearly a month ago. Took me 10 days before I was able to diagnose him with velvet. PTG has the same faded gold color along his spine that my shimmer has, though that is the only place that I suspected seeing it in your first pics. All of the symptoms that you are dealing with, except the floating to the top, I have seen in Shimmer. He has gold flakes that almost look like glitter on his tail fin and his gills, in the beginning he didn't want to flare. I even noticed that the color or a piece was missing from his gill beard on one side. Since I have been treating, his gill beard color/flesh has returned. It is looking much better , though he still has lots of velvet on him. I treated with AS @ 3tsp per gallon for 6 days and saw no improvements. The 7th day I changed to Kordon Rid Ick Plus. It has been 5 days now and I am starting to see the goldness is not as pronounced as it was. Mine too would struggle to swim to the bottom of the tank, he would also have issues turning when he came to the wall of the tank. I know I am babbling, but I thought maybe if the symptoms sounded similar, you might be dealing with the same thing. Do you check them with a flashlight for the dusting?It could be gold or rust colored...Just a thought, I hope that you both are headed for better days. I will check on your progress, if for no other reason than to educate myself. I don't have as much experience to add to your situation as the others, but I am learning as I read yours. Have a good night!!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The pellets do make them a bit big. :/ This happened to me when I fed one to my guy as a preventative measure. Two hours later he was enormous and I was on the forum panicking like crazy. If the bloating doesn't go down, fast him again. :/ You know what, I think you might want to PM DarkMoon17. I really want to treat PTG but I also don't know how good it is for him to bloat up like the Hindenburg every time he eats his medicine. DarkMoon is a veterinary student and very knowledgeable about diseases and medications, although sometimes she has access to medicines we can't readily find. Let her know in a nutshell what his symptoms have been and how you've been treating him. I think she'll know better than me how to treat him at this point. 

Are your tetras missing the blue stripe on their sides? Do they look mostly white? I think they have Neon Tetra Disease. It can cause the spine to curve like that.
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/neondisease.htm


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi tlyons01, thanks for taking a look through PTG's drama - I know it's a lot of pages !

You know, you may be absolutely right here. When I initially noticed the gold shininess on the tetras, you bet I took a flash light to PTG too but I couldn't see anything "shiny" on her. I looked every day. That said, maybe I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for as I have never dealt with velvet before. I did look at pictures online, but I don't know. I convinced myself that the tetras looked like that because they were already shiny.

Now, reading that it took you 10 days to diagnose your Shimmer, makes me think maybe I have overlooked something. I have noticed some gray patches on PTG's face but nothing shiny or dusty on his fins. If in fact the tetras do have it, then it is more than likely PTG does too as they were in the same tank. Only thing is that PTG's fins are actually looking good now, as he was dealing with fin rot and he even had a split up his fin last week and now it has all healed and growing in nicely.

Anyhow, it's interesting that Rid Ich is helping! I have Rid Ich too from a prior bout with Ich. Would that be the medication of choice? I also bought some General Cure which says it would be for for treating Velvet as well as other things (Parasitic Gill Disease, HOle in the Head, Fish Lice, Anchor worm etc.) I was hesitant against using this as it had some pretty heavy warnings on the package. lol I'm just afraid to start another medication without being sure of the diagnosis. Do you have a picture of Shimmer with the velvet on him?

As for the buoyancy issues, it is very confusing that PTG's seem to come and go. For two days he will be unable to swim to the bottom and just bobs back up when he tries, and then all of a sudden, I'll see him swimming along the bottom like nothing was ever wrong. I'll get happy and then boom, he'll be floating again. Right now, he is swimming along the bottom happily. I gave him anti-parasitic/anti-bacterial food yesterday in hopes of eliminating any internal conditions as he had been having white poops and he got really bloated right after that. He did poop some more light coloured stuff and seems better now but we'll see. I just can't find any shiny looking stuff with the flashlight but it's hard since his body has a shiny bluish underlay anyway.

Thanks for following up with this thread. I think we all can learn from each other no matter how much (or how little as in my case) experience we have. I will look for your thread too. Good luck to you as well, I hope your little Shimmer also kicks the bug for good and swims happily for a long time!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey there Sakura,

It seems that PTG has found relief after her bloating after the medicated food; for how long remains to be seen! This morning I noticed some poop (still light coloured) and he is swimming along the bottom of the tank with no problems. I decided to give him another round with the medicated pellets since he did eventually get rid of the bloat, and since this time he was able to get them off the bottom, it was more successful than yesterday. Only thing is despite soaking them in garlic/tank water, he still has a hard time just taking it in and eating it. It came flying out of his mouth a few times before he could eventually keep it in long enough to chew. Also, he is a bit of a brat. Once it hits the bottom, he won't try to get it anymore. I literally have to pick it up (w/ my syringe) and drop it back in the water so he can chase it as it falls. Sheesh!

Thanks also for the tip on contacting Darkmoon. I think I will see what she thinks of the whole thing before I start medicating with anything else. It seems that there are many medications I have seen mentioned on these forums that I don't have here in Canada. In fact, I don't even know what brand the medicated food is since it was given to me in a baggie.

So yes, with the tetras, it's hard to tell what is going on. At one point, they (especially one of them) were losing their colour, not just the blue strip. It started with the red fading out of them, then the blue faded and they were really breathing fast and heavily. It got to where they were a whitish colour but they definitely have that goldish sheen to them. Anyway, now they have regained their colour. It is so weird. They are still not eating though. I stopped the rid ich thinking they weren't getting better and that I shouldn't prolong things but they keep hanging on so maybe I should treat again with rid ich and see if it doesn't clear things up. I was conviced it was neon tetra disease too which is why I stopped treating them because it says that is incurable. I'm just not sure. You know, I just might try the general cure on them since it specifically says it is for velvet. At this point, I don't think there is much to lose where they are concerned.:-(

Edit: Just read the article you linked me to. If it is NTD, it says you can never get rid of it from your tank. Well, that is just great. Does that mean every fish that goes in there is going to get sick? I know not all will be susceptible but just the idea that you can't get rid of it is annoying. I really do not want to tear this tank down and have to take everything out and clean it *shudders at the thought*!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

And hello hello.  I am glad to hear PTG's bloat went down. If I remember correctly, DarkMoon said they were not very nutritious as a food which I believe means a lot of filler product that PTG won't be digesting as quickly as he would a good quality pellet. It's too bad the pellets are the best way to give metronidazole internally. Only other option is to use metro tablets and make a paste that you can coat food with. :/ 

Aww, I'm sorry he's a brat. I guess like some people make bad patients, so do some bettas.  C'mon, PTG, stop making things harder for your mom!

Velvet looks like this when it's a really serious infestation:









I think even on the tetras if they had velvet you would be able to see individual spots, just not as easily as you would with ich. You can try General Cure because I think you're right, what'll you lose? If it's velvet, it will treat it and you'll save them. If it's Neon Tetra Disease, it's incurable anyway. Grim way of looking at it but it's worth a shot.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, this is the longest so far that the buoyancy hasn't been an issue. Usually no sooner is he "normal" again, he flares and flares and starts floating. Like I said, that is just my logic talking but probably has nothing to do with it but I was still afraid to interact with him too much for fear he would flare and start floating again. ;-)

Hmm, that sucks that the medicated pellets are so full of filler. It defeats the purpose to treat for one thing, only to cause another. Oh well, at least the effects of the big bloating seem to be temporary. I did PM DarkMoon17 and managed to keep this whole 9 page thread into one post (albeit longish). Hopefully she will have some insight as well.

As for the velvet, thanks for the pic, I definitely don't see anything like that on PTG. Even the tetras, it is not as spotty as in the picture. It is more of an overall sheen they have which could be their natural colouring. They are pretty shiny fishies. It's just that the tone of the sheen had never struck me as being gold on them before, they were more a silvery colour. In this case, I'm glad you agree that it can't really hurt to treat with General Cure if the other option is NTD and incurable anyway.

Only problem is the general cure capsules are made for 10 gallon tank dosage. How do I split that up to treat the little QT container? Do I literally segment the powder into 10 portions and make up a one gallon container of it and just use that for the water changes?


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi, thanks for responding to me. I am happy to share photos, they have helped me along the way, since mine seems to get super power swimming strength when I am close to him and won't let me examine him too much.. I went back to the first pics that I took, which was on Aug 1st. The last 2 pics will be ones that I took today. I noticed for the first time the toll this is tanking on his coloring, and you will be able to see quite clearly as well. Its on his spine. I have no idea if I am winning this battle or not. All I can say, is that he is not as lethargic as he was, but he does like to hide behind the stick on thermometer alot. Anyone, please comment any thoughts you might have about Shimmer. I am following the advice that I got on the diseases page here in this forum. As far as the med that I am using, of the 3 that were suggested only 1 was available in my store. So that is what I am using...I think most have suggested any type of Ich medication, since it is a parasite as well. I would like to add, that the sparkly that I am referring to in the fins, is not seen when there is no light or flash on the camera. What my images here show is what I see with the flashlight. The only things that I can see without, is the discoloration on his head and spine area.


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Just to add to my description, it looks like a gold colored haze almost across his head and back/spine area


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

I think you could use a medicine cup, like that comes with cough medicine or something, anyway mix the powder with 10 ml of water and use 1 ml per gallon...


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hmmm, I am by NO means an expert in fish disease, as I am quite new to the hobby as well (Sakura, jump in here anytime!!!), but this does look to me like some of the other pictures of velvet I have seen. In your first pic, I see it mostly on the fins. I don't see any of this with PTG though. I have irritated him thoroughly constantly shining the flash light in his face and on his body. The only real discolouration I see on my betta, is sometimes the face gets this greyish, silvery patches on it and I asked about that a couple of days ago and Sakura didn't seem to think it looked out of the ordinary.

That said, something is not 100% right with him and it could be that both Shimmer and PTG share something parasitic in nature, just not exactly the same thing. There are alot of symptoms in common. My PTG was constantly hiding too before I took him out of the main tank. He was gong under this clamshell aerator I had in there and wouldn't come out for hours. I would have to lift the decoration up and he would come out of that 1cm space below! Crazy fishy. :roll: Trust me, I would love to have a definitive diagnosis so I can treat him properly already! It has been most frustrating, as I am sure the same is true in your case not finding the results you seek.

I certainly see the change in colouring over your succession of pictures. He is definitely paler than in the first ones. Just a though, have you tried treating for anything internally? Have Shimmer's poops been normal? PTG's poops have been off for a couple of weeks. They are no longer fuzzy and diarrhea like as they once were but are still very pale and whitish in colour. In fact, he has just done another big poop and it is the same. As you probably read in my previous pages, I am treating him with medicated food that my petsmart gave me. Sorry, I don't know what brand it is as she gave me some in a bag from their back room. They didn't have anything like that for sale on the shelves. I have heard though that Jungle Labs makes something called Parasite Guard or Parasite Clear, something along those lines, or if you have a Petsmart near you, you could try asking them for a sample. 

The stuff she gave me was mixed anti bacterial/anti parasite pellets and she said it was safe to feed both together and would help knock out anything that might be lurking inside him. She said they fed it to their fish especially new arrivals and could be used as a preventative too. I figured it sounds harmless enough so am feeding a couple of pellets of the stuff a day. Yesterday, it did bloat him terribly though he did poop it out and was ok again.

You might want to confirm all of the above with someone more knowledgeale first though as I am not a fish expert at all. 

Only other thing I can say is that maybe the medication you are using is not strong enough to totally eradicate the velvet. I know Ich medications are good for many parasites but maybe you should try a med that is specially formulated for velvet. There is something that is called General Cure which states it treats Velvet among other diseases. The key ingredient is Metronidazole, and Copper Sulfate. You should use care when handling this product as there is a warning on the carton that says it has ingredients known to cause cancer. :shock: That is why I am holding off unless I really need to use it. lol

Well, I hope I haven't confused you more than helped. Hopefully, we will all be able to help each other with the help of these awesome people here! I hope both our betta babies will be as good as new soon! I was told that mine was not all that old so he certainly has a lot of life left in him!!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

tlyons01 said:


> I think you could use a medicine cup, like that comes with cough medicine or something, anyway mix the powder with 10 ml of water and use 1 ml per gallon...


 So you're saying I should put the whole capsule (meant to treat 10 gallons) into a cup with 10ml water and dose 1 ml/gallon? Sorry, I'm such a dunce with this stuff! It just seems so concentrated - though I guess only giving a ml of it would be one tenth of the dose. I'd have to further divide it though since my QT container is less than a gallon. They should make meds easier to dose in smaller quantities!


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi SVC, I actually have not tried a treatment for internals, as I haven't seen any signs of them. His poo is as normal as my others, varied only by what I feed them. I have read that the copper treatments are more harmful than good. Yes, though I actually started to treat him with Mardel's Coppersafe. This was before I read the forum here and went looking for the other 3 that Darkmoon17 referred to. I wanted to get the PP that was talked about, but it is no longer for sale in stores and the quantities available online are too big for just us.. LOL, aside from the dangerousness of using it. I opted to go with the safer for me options! I am glad that you have examined PTG and not found anything that looks like what Shimmer has, though not having a diagnosis is almost as frustrating as treating with no improvement. After researching Velvet, I found that like Ich, you can only kill them when they have fallen off of the host to reproduce. It seems like they never fall off, though! I have tried to find the lifespan of the parasite so I know how many days to expect to wait, but that information is not out there. I know that some have said that it took them treating for a month before they were able to get rid of it. And also that once they get it, they are more susceptible to getting it again. If I have to treat for that long, of course I will. I didn't purchase him so that I could watch him die, thats for sure! I get no pleasure in changing out his QT tank everyday, 100% and I am sure that all these tank changes are going to stress him out eventually to the point where he might just give in to the disease. Today he is acting unusually inactive  I hope you find success soon as we continue to try and save the lives of our buddies!! Will keep you posted. I am going to look into the meds that you mentioned and see if we have that in our store. Medications sure are expensive!! My little hobby is costing me an arm and a leg! Good thing I don't buy myself much often... LOL


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, yes that is what i mean, 10 ml. What you could do is pick up a gallon container, a pitcher or bucket or something and dose the gallon in it, and just use what you need from that container. That way you are safe from overdosing the water. The only downside to this, is that I have read once the medicine is mixed with water it starts to lose its potency. I do not know if this is correct or not...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi hi hi. First, hi tlyons.  I shall be honest, tlyons, I don't think Shimmer has velvet at all. I think there is another reason he was acting funny. Many bettas with the pale bodies such as yours develop gold upon their heads. It's actually part of the waste process. The betta deposits these wastes in the skin, eyes, and fins. They are called guanines and are a nontoxic compound of the ammonia. These can be deposited in the skin as crystalline arrays that cause iridescence such as the gold sheen you see on the top of your betta. When these deposits are in the skin, they are then called iridocytes. The bettas we have today have been selectively bred to have lots of iridocytes, often on the head and back. (The Betta Handbook, Robert Goldstein, pg 10).

For example, here's are pics of my healthy Cambodian male














See how the top of his head looks goldish? That's the iridocytes at work. That's also what you see in the gold on your Shimmer. So the good news is your guy doesn't have velvet, which is hard to treat. Yay! I'd like to help you find out what's wrong with Shimmer, so if you start a thread in the Disease section or PM me, I'd be happy to help you. 

Now, SVC, here's a quick pic of one of my girls to show the gray patches on her cheeks. Sorry it's blurry, she thought it was food time and went into hyperspeed. 







The gray patches could be normal coloring or even old ammonia scars from his time at the pet store or in the tank while it was cycling. You can also ask DarkMoon what she thinks of the patches. I could be wrong. It never hurts to ask for second opinions, especially when the second opinion is a veterinary student. ;-)

Velvet also doesn't make the poop go all weird or make them have swim bladder issues, which is good. It's hard enough to treat without those other problems. It's very resistant to chemicals because there's only a certain stage when it's susceptible to them; the rest of the time, they're very resistant. 

Treatment: SVC, what I was told is to take something that holds 5 cups of dechlorinated water. Put your capsule in that water and get it all mixed up. Then use 1/2 cup per gallon of the QT container that PTG is in. So if he's in 1 gallon of water, pour 1/2 cup of the medicated mixture in. Does that make sense? I hate math. I really stink at it, that's why I use this formula that DarkMoon told me.

Anyways, I hope this helped both you and you, tlyons. I'm glad neither of your fish have velvet since it's such a pain to treat. Talk to you soon!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey tlyons and Sakura...

Well that is good news that Shimmer's poops are perfectly normal so there probably isn't anything internal going on. That was just a thought since the other treatments seem not to be helping too much.

Also, I am sure glad Sakura chimed in here, because I was wayyy off base thinking it looked like velvet.  See, I told you I wasn't to be trusted!! lol JK! It is quite interesting though about how Bettas can get that goldish sheen on them and that it can be a process of the waste cycle! WOW, that is just fascinating and very good to know! I guess you can say all that glitters isn't gold - or velvet as the case may be! Groaaaan ok, bad humour is outta my system now!

So it looks like we both tlyons and I) may be needing a diagnosis! As I type now, PTG is back to floating again! I don't know why this is happening! He was fine since this morning and wasn't even doing anything to cause it to happen. I don't get why from one minute to the next, bubbles start coming out of his gills again and he bobs to the top of the water. Just flipping weird! Is he doomed to a life of buoyancy problems? 

Now where medications are concerned, I don't blame you for wanting to go the safer route. I too wouldn't want to take chances with risky or complicated to administer things. I have read DarkMoon17's sticky on diseases and I did read about how effective PP was. That said, it sounds very dangerous to use and doesn't sound like something a beginner should undertake. Therefore, I will not be touching the stuff! 

As for the whole QT process, I feel your pain. My little guy is in a very small container - probably less than half gallon and while it's not that hard to change out his water everyday, I also worry about him getting stressed out with all the water changes. I try as hard as possible to keep temp the same and not jostle him too much as I think pouring him in and out of the containers is what contributed to this buoyancy problem in the first place. I really want to put him back in his tank, but I fear whatever is lurking in there is just going to latch onto him since his immunity has taken a hit lately.

It is also frustrating to know that treating parasites is not as easy as dumping the meds into the water. Have you tried to up the temperature in order to speed up the life cycle of the parasites? I'm sure you have but I just thought I'd mention it.

Oh, and thanks tlyons and Sakura for clearing up the meds dosing question. I have also ready that once mixed, the batch of meds should be used within 8 hours. This is a waste considering this particulr package says to dose every other day for two doses! Meds are expensive and it doesn't help to have to throw bunches of it away. That said, I also feel like you in that we didn't accept these pets into our home just to let them die so we do our best! Btw, I didn't even buy PTG. He was given to my daughter as a loot bag from a friend's birthday party. This free little fishy has cost me many $'s so far but you know, I like to say I chose to make it a hobby instead of leaving him to one side for however long he lives so I am not complaining. I have to give you guys credit though for having so many fish and other pets too. I am overwhelmed with all the issues just one fish is having!!

Hopefully none of our pets give in to anything. Fight fishies, fight!!!


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

SVC and Sakura, thank you soooo much Sakura for taking the time to look at my pics. I had never seen/heard anything about what you mentioned about the waste and I have to look back up to see the name of it again. I am going to research more into that. It would make things a whole heck of a lot easier, to find that my Shimmer was just suffering from say ammonia poisoning or something easy like that. I have some work to do.... Gotta change some tank water to remove some meds and maybe he will start to act more lively. Would either of you recommend that I keep him QT until further research is done? I have almost completed cycling my 10 gallon split tank, which is to be his home. Oh by the way, i do have his tank floating in the cycling 10 gallon for the higher temp. Good thinking though SVC. I will be watching for improvements to your PTG and thanks again Sakura, you have some really pretty bettas!! Going to change water now, great to spend my Friday night playing with my fishies.. At least I got to go out and eat dinner already!!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

I think there couldn't be any harm in leaving Shimmer QT'd until you are sure that a.) he is ok, and doesn't have anything needing treatment, and b.) till your tank is cycled. Perhaps with him already being vulnerable, the cycling process will be too harsh for him. I know he probably hates being in QT and the water changes are also stressful but you have to weigh the options and decide which is the lesser of two evils. Personally, I plan to keep PTG in his QT until my main tank is cycled and has no more wonky readings. For me, I think it was the ammonia that did a number on them and these issues are all a side effect of that!

Glad to hear you got to go out for dinner tonight! Hope you have a nice night with your fishies. I will be watching out for Shimmer too and thinking good thoughts for him. Please let us know how he's doing!!

Sakura, just wanted to second tlyons and say your bettas are really pretty! I love all the varied colours. I never see such beautiful ones around my pet store, not even in the big fish store. They have a bit more variety, but honestly, it is shocking how pitiful they all look in their little cups. I think I counted at least 8 of them that had bloated bellies and a few were even on their sides looking like there was no purpose to living. So terrible!  Somehow the other fish tanks get looked after well but the bettas are always thrown to one side and neglected. Hmph!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hope everyone and their pets are well today! Just wanted to say one of my tetras finally died yesterday. Ok, that came out wrong. I didn't mean it like I was waiting for it to die, but it was obvious it wasn't going to recover at this point. I suspect the other one will follow soon. I just feel bad for them dying a slow, possibly painful death but can't bring myself to end its life either. It was the sicker one that died and he died with both blue and red strip although red was pretty faded. Not sure if it was Neon Tetra Disease or velvet or it was too compromised by the ammonia problems. Oh well, RIP little fishy.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good morning my friends.

tlyons, you're welcome, I certainly never mind looking at pictures of bettas, especially ones as pretty as yours. Shimmer lives up to his name. And thank you both for saying my fish are pretty.  They appreciate the compliments. 

To be honest, I had never heard of the whole guanine waste process myself until I picked up the book The Betta Handbook by Robert Goldstein. That book is filled to the brim with scientific info about pigments and genes and melano, xanthic, and terms I've never heard. I don't think all bettas have goldish sheens, some have green or red sheens, I believe. Shimmer just happens to look gold. I also think the selective breeding for guanines/iridocytes are what cause the so-called "dragon scale" bettas that have become so popular. 

Anyway, I'm 90% sure I'm interpreting the information right but rest assured I'm 110% sure Shimmer doesn't have velvet. Even though velvet cysts are much smaller than ich cysts, they can still be seen as individual spots unless the fish is literally coated in them and in that severe of an infestation, I imagine the poor fish would not be living. Experts say that ich makes a fish look like it has been salted and velvet makes a fish look like it has been dusted with fine sand grains. 

If Shimmer isn't acting like his old self still, I would leave him in QT. I don't remember if you mentioned what size container Shimmer was in, but if it's smaller than 1 gallon and he's getting really stressed, maybe consider picking up one of those 1 gallon fish bowls at the pet store to QT him. Heating it might be a bit hard but if the temp outside is pretty hot, he should stay warm enough. As long as he's over 76 degrees.

SVC, I'm sorry to hear PTG is floating again! That stinker. :/ It's beginning to sound like his buoyancy issues are directly tied to his intenstinal actions. Does it seem as if once he's pooped, he's fine but once he digests food and the waste builds up again, he starts floating? That seems to indicate that when his intestines are full, they press against his swim bladder so he loses control and starts floating. But whether or not it's just waste building up in there or something else too I don't know. And he's still taking his medicated pellets? Hrm. I hope DarkMoon replies soon. 

I hope both of you have great weekends. Don't hang out with the fish too much, have some fun. :-D


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hello to you as well, SVC sorry to hear that your tetra lost its battle. It's a shame that it happens even when we sorta expect it to. I have to say, IMO, that it probably was NOT velvet, since they were originally housed together and PTG does not have it. The mystery continues... I hope that PTG is having a good day, as well as you both too. As far as we go, Shimmer seems to be ok. I changed is water last night, and he is in a gallon container that was floating to keep the temp up, but now is not and I let the water temp drop on its own. Its now room temp, which is around 74. He seems a little more active today. I am keeping my eye on him, he is at my computer desk so I can watch.. lol I didn't mean to imply last night that I was gonna put him in the cycling tank, I was referring to after the cycle is finished. I am well aware that the water is pretty toxic right now, everything has high readings. I hope to have it completed in the next few days. Speaking of cycling, SVC, where are you on your cycle? Have you tested your water lately to see your readings? I can't remember without scrolling back to the beginning if you had all of the test kits and were watching the water. If you want any information about how to speed up the process, I will be happy to help, as well as I am sure others are knowledgeable in that as well. I have been cycling this tank for almost 3 weeks, using ammonia. I have got all the bacteria I need, just waiting for the colonies to get big enough to break it all down in a 24 hour period. I also have a 5 gallon that i have been cycling for 2 weeks. Then everyone (bettas) will have new homes to enjoy!! And, I won't have to do all of these water changes all over the house the way I do them now. I am not sure what I plan to do with all of that extra time I will have....Anyway, I hope you all have great weekends, and whats this life outside of bettas thing you mentioned, Sakura? I have never heard of such things.... ~


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good afternoon tlyons and Sakura, 

Glad everyone is good and fishies holding their own. tlyons, I'm happy Shimmer is more active today and I'm really glad Sakura is sure it's not velvet. Based on her description, I don't think my tetras had it either because they had an overall gold haze to them and not individual specs like ich. I think they probably got irreversible damage to their gills when the ammonia shot up in my tank and while some gave in really quick, the remaining two are eventually succumbing to it. It is unpleasant, even when you are expecting it. That said, I don't think I had the same attachment to my tetras as I do to PTG. I think bettas just have more personality and really bond with you as opposed to some other fish that just swim around and don't interact. I also didn't like how they bit my guy every chance they got. I won't be putting new tetras in my tank, at least not with PTG!

Also, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were going to dump Shimmer in an uncycled tank. I thought it was almost done cycling and you were going to put him in. I was just thinking if he's already compromised, even a tiny bit cycling might be stressful but I misunderstood. I think it will be fine to go back in when the tank is cycled and as long as you're sure he has nothing that can contaminate the tank. 

As for me, I wish I knew about fishless cycling before I stocked my tank. Actually, Sakura PM'd me a great article about the nitrogen cycle earlier when I first joined the forum and it was great and very easy to understand. That said, since I bought a wall aquarium recently, I will definitely be referring back and asking about cycling. I think this time I want to do a fishless cycle and make sure my readings are all good before adding fish because due to it's narrow space, that tank will be harder to have to treat all the time so I want something that will give me enjoyment and no drama! lol I have done some research on Fishless Cycling, but any tips you have I would love to know! I have heard you can cycle a tank much faster this way, and you are using pure ammonia powder as opposed to fish food? 

As for me, I have no clue where I am on my cycle! It seems to be a never ending process. I did recently get the API Master Test Kit, as well as the KH and GH test kit of the same brand. Before that I was always taking my water into the LFS for testing. When I went in today to my LFS, my regular guy was off and a girl I hadn't seen before was there. She was awesome though and really had a lot of knowledge. Still, her head was spinning by the time I told her what my tank problems were. She too had no idea why everything was so off kilter. Anyway, according to her test strips, my ammonia was 1.0ppm (my test kit only shows between 0.25-0.5) and nitrate nitrite was 0 as always. I don't get why I am not getting any nitrites by now. The KH and GH (that I tested at home) in my tank are 4 and 12 respectively. My tank KH is always low for some reason! Anyway, she asked what kind of filter I had and when I said tetra whisper she made a face. She said they weren't very good which I figured since it came with my tank when I bought it. They never give you the good stuff as a set. So I am thinking I might upgrade in the future. She showed me the filter she has, which is called AquaClear and she said it has these ceramic discs that really absorb a lot of bacteria. So I bought a small pack of the cermic discs and will put them in my filter as an added source of bacteria. Hopefully that will help make more bacteria to eat up the ammonia.

Sakura, yes PTG is being a stinker alright! I have started seeing a pattern that whenever I walk in and see him swimming normally, there are usually some new poops at the bottom of the tank. However, it is always short lived and then he's back to floating. This is day 3 of the medicated pellets and yes, he's eating them! He has even started eating them when they disintegrate and fall to the floor. I guess he has figured out that if he doesn't eat, he stays hungry. lol Sometimes the floating is random too. I think it might be a combination of constipation and parasites. I've noticed that that fuzzy, diarrhea like poop has now stopped and what is coming out it solid and formed, but light colour. Actually, not to be gross, but once I dissected it with a toothpick (I know, ew) it seems like there is regular brown stuff inside of a slimy whitish casing. Weird. 

Btw, DarkMoon actually PM'd me back and she seemed to think it was parasites too. She said that parasites can cause bloating to come and go because when the fish expels them, he will deflate, and when they build up inside of him, he will bloat again so probably, the best thing is to continue the medicated food for about 14 days to make sure anything in him gets knocked out. She also mentioned that maybe there was a light dusting on PTG looking like velvet in one of my first pictures but when I said I can't see anything like that on him with a flash light, she said not to treat with anything other than the pellets for now, and to go from there if they didn't work. I don't know either what keeps building up in him every time but hopefully it is not something bad. Fingers crossed that after a week or two with these pellets that he will get over this problem.

Oh, DarkMoon also said that my tank is probably having so many issues because I stocked it so quickly when it wasn't cycled. Basically, I had no proper bacteria to eat up nitrites and nitrates and just put all this waste producing fish all of a sudden and my tank has never been able to keep up. It's so simple, but makes so much sense.

Well, that is about it, I am going to go make a partial change of my main tank now and do some more readings later on. You guys have a great weekend too, and I had to lol about a weekend not just spent with fish! It seems like that is all I do these days, though I did take my human kids out for a bit this afternoon. LOL


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

HAHA yes, I too took my human kids out today. Actually spent 3 hours in the Mall, not my favorite. I am currently using liquid ammonia, it took me forever to find the right kind of ammonia too. After buying 2 different bottles and realizing that they were not the right stuff, I called around. Lucky for me we have a mom and pop hardware store and when I called, they were willing to look at the ingredients as well as shake the bottle for me so I knew it was what I was looking for. I'm sure they thought I was a crazy person, but O-well. I got the stuff I was looking for and they were the only ones that had 1 big jug of it. Now I can probably cycle my neighborhoods tanks too! It might be easier to use the fish food method. Just be sure to grind it up so it doesn't just float around for days... Do you think there is a way that you could cycle your wall tank prior to putting it up? I mean, maybe setting it up, but then taking it down and putting it somewhere that you have easier access to it. Cause once you get it going, you will need to be able to get water for testing almost daily and be able to change out water if your ammonia levels are too high or if the cycle stalls, things of that nature. I sure would hate seeing anything bad happen to that wall tank. I do recall seeing the pic you posted of it, it is VERY nice. It sounds as though you have all your bases covered but I will certainly add a thing or two when its something I am familiar with or have read about.. Time for me to get some movie time in with my oldest, looking forward to some popcorn.. Nighty night ya'll!!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Has your pH stabilized yet? Bacteria won't grow if it's too low. I read somewhere recently that low KH can be mildly harmful to osmotic pressure of cells.

I'm not sure how much to add, some people say add 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons of water. Just add a little bit and see what happens to your KH


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi everyone. SVC, I'm glad DarkMoon PMed you, I feel a little better with her on the case. PTG is just confusing me, throwing so many conflicting symptoms everywhere. :-D I'm glad he's eating though, eating is always a good sign. And I'm sorry about your tetra, I missed that the first time around. But at least it is at peace now. I agree, although I love my tetras, I know I will never bond with them the way I have with my bettas. The tetras are pretty to look at but that's it.

tlyons, how is Shimmer doing? Any changes in his behavior, for better or worse? (hopefully not worse)

I'll be popping in and out throughout the day, so I'll check back.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

tlyons01 said:


> HAHA yes, I too took my human kids out today. Well, I'm ashamed to say, I took mine to the pet store with me where they promptly whined while I had a lengthy convo with the girl there, BUT, I did then make up for it by taking them to lunch and letting them have dessert!
> Actually spent 3 hours in the Mall, not my favorite. Tell me about it! How did I love going to the mall as a teenager? Now it's just so much work!!!
> I am currently using liquid ammonia, it took me forever to find the right kind of ammonia too. After buying 2 different bottles and realizing that they were not the right stuff, I called around. Lucky for me we have a mom and pop hardware store and when I called, they were willing to look at the ingredients as well as shake the bottle for me so I knew it was what I was looking for. I'm sure they thought I was a crazy person, but O-well. I got the stuff I was looking for and they were the only ones that had 1 big jug of it. Now I can probably cycle my neighborhoods tanks too! It might be easier to use the fish food method. Just be sure to grind it up so it doesn't just float around for days... Do you think there is a way that you could cycle your wall tank prior to putting it up? I mean, maybe setting it up, but then taking it down and putting it somewhere that you have easier access to it. Cause once you get it going, you will need to be able to get water for testing almost daily and be able to change out water if your ammonia levels are too high or if the cycle stalls, things of that nature. Well, I think I will have to cycle it fully installed. As you can imagine, it is very heavy. I think without water it weighs more than a plasma tv, especially with the thick glass used on it. With water, the size I got is going to end up weighing up to 300 pounds. It needs to be mounted right into the studs so once water is in it, I don't think it can be taken down. I t does have a lid that goes along the top though so I don't think it will be a problem to get water out of it for testing purposes. I'll have to stand on a chair to do it but I'll have to get used to doing water changes anyway later on. It came with this little hand siphon but I'm hoping I can use my automatic siphon (one that attaches right to the sink).
> I sure would hate seeing anything bad happen to that wall tank. Me too! I do recall seeing the pic you posted of it, it is VERY nice. Thank You! Actually, Sakura told me another member here has one too. I think it is Sunnydawnie. I might PM her and see how she did with setting it up.
> ...


Have a great Sunday!! How's Shimmer today? Is he active? PTG has, as of last night, been swimming normally. He had a few poops yesterday and so far hasn't gone buoyant again. Hopefully the medicated food is doing something!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi Bahamut, hope you're having a nice weekend! 



bahamut285 said:


> Has your pH stabilized yet? Seems to have. It is holding steady around now. I did a water change yesterday and tested this morning and it is still 7.8. What's better I think, is that it is not decreasing anymore as the water gets older. It had been a week since my last water change. Bacteria won't grow if it's too low. I read somewhere recently that low KH can be mildly harmful to osmotic pressure of cells. My problem is still the KH. It is consistently 3 (GH was 10). I thought since I just changed water, that it would be higher but nope!
> 
> I'm not sure how much to add, some people say add 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons of water. Just add a little bit and see what happens to your KH. I might end up going the baking soda route if nothing changes. It was also suggested to put a piece of driftwood in the tank or seashells. I know that is more for pH but would it help with KH too? Btw, my ammonia seems to be rising again too (.5 today) so maybe the tank is trying to cycle again. Still no nitrate/ites.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey, happy Sunday to you Sakura!



Sakura8 said:


> Hi everyone. SVC, I'm glad DarkMoon PMed you, I feel a little better with her on the case. PTG is just confusing me, throwing so many conflicting symptoms everywhere. :-D I'm glad he's eating though, eating is always a good sign. Yes, PTG is definitely confusing but maybe we are making headway. Yesterday he had quite a few poops. They were still light coloured but it almost looked like a sausage in its casing - the casing was whitish but the insides were brown. Whatever the case may be, hopefully the medicated food is helping. As I mentioned to tlyons, last night he was swimming normally and this morning he still is! That might be the longest period yet. Still not holding my breath but it looks to at least be moving in the right direction. Oh, and you should see him when he's swimming is good. He gets all aggressive and starts flaring at the danios swimming outside of his little container and he's banging into the wall trying to get at them. lol It's like he's saying, hey, that's my tank get outta there!. lol
> And I'm sorry about your tetra, I missed that the first time around. No worries! But at least it is at peace now. I agree, although I love my tetras, I know I will never bond with them the way I have with my bettas. The tetras are pretty to look at but that's it. Yeah, I felt bad for not feeling worse but I guess part of it was the fact that I knew they wouldn't make it in the long run. The last one is still hanging on and actually eating a bit too.
> 
> tlyons, how is Shimmer doing? Any changes in his behavior, for better or worse? (hopefully not worse)
> ...


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for asking about Shimmer again. Today he seems to be just as inactive as the last few days. He hangs mid water alot, all I can see are his Pectoral fins flapping. He has his fins clamped most of the day. I took him out of the big tank where he was floating in his tank, and have him on my desk next to my HM and when I removed the book I keep between them, he had no interest at even flaring. He looks as though he is having difficulty turning around in the corner walls of the tank. Once he gets to a corner he sorta has to wag his head area, like he is sorta stiff or something and cannot bend as fluently as they should. I think maybe that is due to the cramped quarters, but can't say for sure. Today is the day that I fast my fish, up through the last 2 weeks he has had a pretty good appetite, always eating what I give him. I just took a few pics, he is back to hiding behind the sticker, though he really has nothing else to hide behind. Just put a heater in, his neighbor was using it so I can see how he acts with a few degree warmer water and compare notes. I am holding out hope. Let me ask, those that are familiar. My HM is a deep blue, but this last week his head seems to be turning grey/black, its over his face and seems to be moving back along his body. Is this normal? I have had him for about a month and a half now, and other than getting lighter in color when he is stressed I haven't seen him like this. Seems like maybe it started last week when I started using stress coat in his water. Could that be why? I know its aloe vera and I wondered if the synthetic slime coat could be causing it... Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

SVC, I understand about taking the time you get, my husband works night shift and after making his breakfast when he gets home in the morning, I don't see him until he gets up to get ready for work. Sure does make having a relationship hard... Well, well, looks like nap time out here for me and the tots. I will check back in later, happy Sunday everyone..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

tlyons, it's possible he is just changing colors normally. The Stress Coat might actually be making him feel good so he's darkening up. I'd have to see a pic of the black to know for sure.

Not sure what to tell you about Shimmer. What's your water change schedule? Also, you said he doesn't really have anything to hide in? One thing you can do is take a clean coffee cup and tip it on its side. Or even a plastic cup if you can find some clean rocks or something to weight it down with. This is strange but the more hiding spots a fish has, the safer they feel and the more they will swim in the open. I'm not sure if that's Shimmer's problem but it couldn't hurt to try.


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hiya, yeah the more pictures I was just taking the more that tonight it looks like a blue green coloring of his scales, and that is not the same as what I thought I was seeing. So for now, I have no other questions. For the night anyway!! I am sure that something will come up and I will look to you for your precious opinions. I am sure that I am not alone in saying this, but it is so very nice to have other that take caring for these guys as serious as we do. If not for this forum, and especially Sakura and SVC as well as darkmoon, I would not have anyone to talk to about my boys. My kids are not old enough, my oldest is but she doesn't pay attention and my hubby has no time for such things... LOL I guess I am just trying to say how grateful I am that I have this group to talk to and feel comfortable enough to ask questions with reliable responses, that I don't have to wait weeks for. Thanks you all, your the bestest!!! :blueyay:


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Hello SVC, I'm glad to hear your pH is relatively stable for now. I know driftwood increases pH and seashells increase kH and GH (they release Calcium Carbonate) but I am definitely not aware of what kind of shells you're supposed to purchase. All the things at my LPS are ceramic/plastic no no help at all.

Is there anybody in the tank? Sorry I keep asking, too many cases to deal with and I forget details xD;; Your tank sounds like it will start cycling as long as the pH holds


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

tlyons01 said:


> Hiya, yeah the more pictures I was just taking the more that tonight it looks like a blue green coloring of his scales, and that is not the same as what I thought I was seeing. So for now, I have no other questions. For the night anyway!! I am sure that something will come up and I will look to you for your precious opinions. I am sure that I am not alone in saying this, but it is so very nice to have other that take caring for these guys as serious as we do. If not for this forum, and especially Sakura and SVC as well as darkmoon, I would not have anyone to talk to about my boys. My kids are not old enough, my oldest is but she doesn't pay attention and my hubby has no time for such things... LOL I guess I am just trying to say how grateful I am that I have this group to talk to and feel comfortable enough to ask questions with reliable responses, that I don't have to wait weeks for. Thanks you all, your the bestest!!! :blueyay:


I love this forum too. I'm a member of another fish forum but I haven't posted there in months. No one is as nice as the people here. And no one seems to be as knowledgeable as the people here, either. I know a lot of people ask questions about non-betta fish here just because they know they'll get good help. I'm glad I can be of help to you, tlyons and SVC.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> Hello SVC, I'm glad to hear your pH is relatively stable for now. I know driftwood increases pH and seashells increase kH and GH (they release Calcium Carbonate) but I am definitely not aware of what kind of shells you're supposed to purchase. All the things at my LPS are ceramic/plastic no no help at all. I think the shells you are supposed to use are natural sea shells. I was told that you could even collect them from the beach if you wanted but you have to boil them really well to make sure they are safe to put in the tank, and you also have to make sure they don't have that buildup on outisde because that would release too much salt into the water and that doesn't work for freshwater tanks. They usually sell hermit crab shells at my petsmart and I think those are fine. I got a pack from the dollar store too. Just have to make sure and boil them, and they can't have any laquer on them or anything. My fish guy says he has them in his tank and they work great.
> 
> Is there anybody in the tank? Sorry I keep asking, too many cases to deal with and I forget details xD;; Your tank sounds like it will start cycling as long as the pH holds  No worries, it's awesome that you help so many people, of course it's hard to keep all the cases straight! LOL Currently I have 3 zebra danios in the tank to keep the cycle from stalling. They seem to be doing ok. Hopefully the low KH won't interfere with cycling process although I'd love to figureout why there is such a difference between the KH in my tank and tap. :-?


 Thanks for checking up on me!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hmmm, tlyons this is really stumping me as to why Shimmer is just not feeling his best! If it is not velvet or anything like that, then what could it be? I know PTG was hanging behind the filter too when I first had problems a couple of weeks ago; hence my threat title of betta hanging in the corner. He'd be vertical, much like Shimmer and just stay there doing nothing. The first time I saw him like that I thought he was dead. *shudders* Then he started hiding all the time and wouldn't come out for hours and he wasn't interested in eating. I'm guessing my problem started from the ammonia spike in my tank. Also, I think the medicated pellets are helping him because so far he has not been buoyant all day. Are you sure Shimmer couldn't have something internal going on? I know you said his poops were normal, but I just can't think of what else might be going on. I really hope tomorrow will be a better day for him, and you!

I'm also glad your Half Moon is not having a colour change for bad reasons. It's pretty freaky that bettas can change their colours with moods and with age/time etc. 

I think that is so sweet what you said about being here for each other and our fishies. Honestly, I never thought I would feel this way when my daughter brought this little guy home. In fact, some of the other moms laughed at me because I went out and got a real aquarium when they just put their in pickle jars! I wonder if any of them are still alive? Even the girl at the pet store told me she was really touched that I cared so much to do the right thing to keep my betta alive. She said so many people just leave them to chance and don't care if they are looking after them well or not. It's awesome to have a place where people won't look at you funny because you care so much about your fish. You guys are awesome too and everyone is so willing to help each other. It really makes me, personally, feel very comfortable and I am so grateful to you guys! I just feel bad because I wish I could contribute something useful to someone but I am so new at all this I don't want to step in anywhere and act like I know something. lol Basically, you guys are the bestest too!


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hey all, 
I am happy to report that it seems like Shimmer is having a better day. He and Blewie both got 95% water changes last night, and while they got to see each other for a short while, both were busily flaring at eachother. I am actually thinking that all this time, it may have been due to ammonia poisoning as well. His cup water was very dirty when I brought him home. Then giving him high levels of salt for 6 days and then meds for a week, I am sure that I did not help him to recover. So for now, it'll be clean clean water with some stress coat. I am glad to hear PTG is also showing better results from his med food, hopefully he will put the buoyancy issue behind him... pun intended! Have a great day, and TTYL !


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi tlyons, I'm glad to hear Shimmer is doing better.  How long have you had him? It's definitely possible he was suffering from ammonia in his little cup. I'm very glad he has you know to help him feel better. Don't feel bad, you were trying to help him and in fact, you may have killed any bacteria or parasites he might have had with the meds and salt. Now it's up to clean water and Stress Coat and I bet he'll feel great very soon.

SVC, so glad to hear PTG is holding steady so far. It sounds like the medicated pellets are helping him which is great news. Definitely keep me posted, I'll be checking in often.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

tlyons01 said:


> Hey all,
> I am happy to report that it seems like Shimmer is having a better day. He and Blewie both got 95% water changes last night, and while they got to see each other for a short while, both were busily flaring at eachother. I am actually thinking that all this time, it may have been due to ammonia poisoning as well. His cup water was very dirty when I brought him home. Then giving him high levels of salt for 6 days and then meds for a week, I am sure that I did not help him to recover. So for now, it'll be clean clean water with some stress coat. I am glad to hear PTG is also showing better results from his med food, hopefully he will put the buoyancy issue behind him... pun intended! Have a great day, and TTYL !


Wooohooo, I am so happy Shimmer seems to be feeling better today! It sounds like you and I had the same issues all along! I think it takes a lot to put a Betta down, but if the ammonia gets bad enough, it takes a toll on them. PTG never acted sick when he had ich early on, and the fin rot never bothered him either. Also once, I mistakenly put water that was a few degrees too warm back in during a water change and the tetras were having a fit (and one died :-(), but PTG never seemed bothered. This time though when the ammonia spiked, he suffered and he was breathing really heavy for a few days. It took 3 tetras out in one 24 hour period and then when the breathing recovered, he got all these buoyancy issues. Today is day 2 that he hasn't been floating! Yeeha! Hopefully this is the light at the end of the tunnel! It's been almost two weeks! Hopefully your little guy will also continue on the upswing now. Glad Blewie is doing well too. Flaring is always a good sign, I think. I know PTG would not flare when he was floating or otherwise feel sick.

You have yourself a great day too!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good afternoon Sakura, how is your little rescue this morning? I'm really rooting for him to do well and recover. Who knows, you might just get attached to him and not be able to give him up. lol

As for PTG, I'm knocking on all the wood around me as we are on day 2 of no buoyancy! Woohoo. He is even blowing a bubble nest in his QT! I've figured out that he really is a lot more content in still water. I'm so torn as to what to do when his quarantine period is over. Should I return him to the 10 gallon or put him somewhere else? If I put him in the ten gallon, he's got the danios to contend with and I think they will stress him out as they are too hyper. If I get another tank, that will make 3 including the wall tank, and I don't think I have the time to be maintaing 3 tanks. I had my eye on a fluval edge or chi but it would be yet another tank to deal with. I guess I'll have to figure it out.

Have a great day!


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Just wanted to stop in and share, that Shimmer has also built a bubble nest. I have had him for maybe 5 weeks, I think. I think I had him for a week before Aug 1, which was the day I started taking his pictures. This is only the second time he has built a nest since I brought him home. I know its not a sign of happiness and that sometimes they do it when they are sick, but given his short history with me, I believe it is a good sign. Sounds like PTG may very well stay on the path of recovery as well. I must have missed that you have a new rescue, Sakura. Hope things are well with that one, but I am sure since you are caring for it, its in good hands.. TTYL everyone!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi SVC and tlyons. It sounds like things are looking up for both Shimmer and PTG which is fantastic news. Bubblenesting isn't always a sign of happiness but really, if a betta is super sick I doubt he's going to have the energy to build a nest, don't you? So I'm going to look upon the bubblenests your boys are making as good signs.  

SVC, I'm so happy to hear PTG hasn't had any buoyancy issues for 2 days! *knock knock* It looks like the medicated pellets may be kicking in. Yay! 

tlyons, Shimmer looks like he feels much better in that picture. I think clean water will do the trick for the little guy. 

As for my little rescue, he's hanging in there but far from out of danger. He got a water change today and I'll try to feed him again in a while. So far, he hasn't been hungry at all. Here's hoping he's got an appetite soon.

I'll check back in your boys tomorrow but I'm getting the feeling they're on the road to recovery and won't need checking in soon.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey tlyons, that is great that Shimmer has built another bubble nest! Although they say it doesn't necessarily mean something when they do that, I think overall it is a good sign - at least that he is probably looking to find a female and have some babies, and when that is on their minds, they must be feeling good, right? lol Also, I have heard that sick bubbles are not the same as a bubble nest. Apparently, the sick bubbles are more random and scattered rather than all together and organized, and I think they are also larger too. I know when PTG was having the buoyancy problems so bad he was floating on his side, he was making those larger, random bubbles and some of them were coming out of his gills. I think our guys are making good bubbles for sure. Last night, PTG was looking like he was going to tear the danios apart everytime they swam by him. Poor thing was flaring and banging into the qt tank trying to get at them. lol

Btw, I saw on another thread that Sakura had rescued a sick little boy with velvet and so I was commenting about that. Sorry if it came out of the blue. :doh!:


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> SVC, I'm so happy to hear PTG hasn't had any buoyancy issues for 2 days! *knock knock* It looks like the medicated pellets may be kicking in. Yay! Going on day 3 now - still knocking on wood! :-D
> 
> tlyons, Shimmer looks like he feels much better in that picture. I think clean water will do the trick for the little guy.
> 
> ...


 I know, what a milestone it seems like, sniff sniff...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good morning. 3 days. It does seem like such a milestone. 

Regarding the bubbles - sick bettas usually have trouble swimming and staying at the surface so they often gasp for air as they struggle to reach the surface instead of taking their usual "bite" of air. The result leaves bubbles here and there. A true formed bubblenest is a good sign. 

My little rescue did eat and I was happy but I just checked on him and his swim bladder is not working. I found him nosediving in his plant and when I moved it, he spun out of control. He's in an inch of water floating on his side in a small cup. I'm hoping the food just did something temporary, I only gave him 3 bloodworms. :/ Hopefuly he can regain control. I'll check on him again soon.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Am I missing anything? Just checking in


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> Am I missing anything? Just checking in


Nothing much going on Bahamut. I did another water test yesterday and everything was still the same except ammonia had climbed to 0.5 yet nitrates/ites were still 0. My KH is still at 3 too :/ So my water level was kind of low so I added some new water until Saturday when I will do a pwc with gravel vac. Do you suppose it's time to add some baking soda and if so how much? Also does baking soda last or does it have to be topped up with each water change? 

Thanks a lot for checking in!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Good morning. 3 days. It does seem like such a milestone.
> 
> Regarding the bubbles - sick bettas usually have trouble swimming and staying at the surface so they often gasp for air as they struggle to reach the surface instead of taking their usual "bite" of air. The result leaves bubbles here and there. A true formed bubblenest is a good sign.
> 
> My little rescue did eat and I was happy but I just checked on him and his swim bladder is not working. I found him nosediving in his plant and when I moved it, he spun out of control. He's in an inch of water floating on his side in a small cup. I'm hoping the food just did something temporary, I only gave him 3 bloodworms. :/ Hopefuly he can regain control. I'll check on him again soon.


Hey Sakura, hope your little guy is doing better today. I checked over on the other thread yesterday and saw the updates. He's such a little fighter! Sorry to make you repeat the goings on. I will check over there for all his latest news

As for PTG, I don't know if it is just me but he seems a little less active than he has been. Sometimes I think he's clamping his fins but then when I approach him he fans them out again and comes up to look at me. Maybe he is getting depressed being in that small space now that he feels better? I just want to make sure he is completely over his problems before taking him out of there. Another thing is I don't want to put him in my tank now that the ammonia is rising again. Last thing I want is to have him get ammonia poisoning again! I also want to observe his poop on regular food b/c it is still lightish coloured and i'm wondering if it is because the medicated pellets are not as brown as the regular ones. The antibacterial ones are more grayish I think and the anti bacterial ones are like the betta bites. Oh, just one question what kind of food do you feed? I've heard the pellets are not the greatest and they need other things too. I'm just afraid the frozen things will have parasites.

On a positive note, this is day 4 of no buoyancy issues! 


On a positive note, this is day 4 of no buoyancy issues!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Oops disregard the last sentence appearing twice. I'm typing on my phone and I couldn't scroll down to see if I had typed it twice and it wouldn't let me preview the post before submitting it! Grrrr


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi SVC! Oh, 4 days of no buoyancy issues is worth repeating. :-D That's great news. In regards to him being less active, it's possible that he's starting to sulk in the smaller space but I also agree with you that putting him back into the 10g would probably be a bad idea. Is there any way you can get a small 2 gallon tank for him to go in while he waits for the 10g to cycle? It doesn't need anything fancy, just a heater. You might even be able to find the so-called Kritter Keepers for not much money. 

How long are you supposed to feed the medicated pellets, I've forgotten the dosage. It's possible that the poorer nutritional quality of the pellets is causing his poops to be funny colored still. Are they fuzzy and weird like they were before the pellets?

I feed Omega One Betta Buffet pellets but New Life Spectrum Betta formula is also a very good brand. A good tip for choosing pellets is check the first 2 or 3 ingredients. They should be fish products and then wheat meal/wheat germ. If the second ingredient is wheat meal/germ, then they probably aren't great pellets. I only feed the pellets once a day, the rest of the meals they get frozen bloodworms or frozen brine shrimp. I can understand your concern about parasites in the frozen food but most frozen foods go through a pretty rigorous sterilization process. In fact, in many cases, feeding the frozen food is safer than feeding the live equivalent.  Pellets are great as a staple diet but it's best to offer a variety of foods so you can shake things up with frozen foods too.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> Nothing much going on Bahamut. I did another water test yesterday and everything was still the same except ammonia had climbed to 0.5 yet nitrates/ites were still 0. My KH is still at 3 too :/ So my water level was kind of low so I added some new water until Saturday when I will do a pwc with gravel vac. Do you suppose it's time to add some baking soda and if so how much? Also does baking soda last or does it have to be topped up with each water change?
> 
> Thanks a lot for checking in!


I recommend pre-mixing some baking soda and testing before dumping it in. Since your scale is in dKH, try to shoot for a value of 7-10 dKH. Go for around 9 dKH in the premix bucket, then toss it slowly into your tank over the course of 30 or so minutes.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Hi SVC! Oh, 4 days of no buoyancy issues is worth repeating. :-D That's great news. In regards to him being less active, it's possible that he's starting to sulk in the smaller space but I also agree with you that putting him back into the 10g would probably be a bad idea. Is there any way you can get a small 2 gallon tank for him to go in while he waits for the 10g to cycle? It doesn't need anything fancy, just a heater. You might even be able to find the so-called Kritter Keepers for not much money.
> 
> How long are you supposed to feed the medicated pellets, I've forgotten the dosage. It's possible that the poorer nutritional quality of the pellets is causing his poops to be funny colored still. Are they fuzzy and weird like they were before the pellets?
> 
> I feed Omega One Betta Buffet pellets but New Life Spectrum Betta formula is also a very good brand. A good tip for choosing pellets is check the first 2 or 3 ingredients. They should be fish products and then wheat meal/wheat germ. If the second ingredient is wheat meal/germ, then they probably aren't great pellets. I only feed the pellets once a day, the rest of the meals they get frozen bloodworms or frozen brine shrimp. I can understand your concern about parasites in the frozen food but most frozen foods go through a pretty rigorous sterilization process. In fact, in many cases, feeding the frozen food is safer than feeding the live equivalent.  Pellets are great as a staple diet but it's best to offer a variety of foods so you can shake things up with frozen foods too.


Hi Sakura! Sorry I missed this message yesterday. I'm finally starting to relax a little where PTG is concerned and it does indeed seem like he had some parasites that this medication is taking care of. I was advised by DarkMoon to continue this medicated food treatment for 14 days so I guess even though he looks better and acts better now, I still have about a week or so to go. I feel bad keeping him in the QT tank though since he seems to be irritated by being there. Ideally, I would like to put him back in the 10 gallon once it is safe to do so but what do I do with the danios? I guess I could put them in my wall tank once that is up but lord knows when that will be if I want to do a fishless cycle. I was tempted to buy a smaller tank for PTG (I think I mentioend I like the Fluval Edge/Chi) but now that I bought the wall tank, where would I put a third tank? Also, I feel bad making his permanent home a one or two gallon when he was used to the 10 gallons. lol I suppose anything is better than a 5 cup container though. :-? Oh well, I'll figure it out.

Thankfully PTG is now pooping a normal shape and consistency. It is just the colour that is a bit lighter but somehow they look lighter in the water and when I siphon them out and dump in the sink, they look brown. I guess the regular food is a solid reddish brown colour which is why the poops were that colour too. You're probably right that those pellets are not as nutritionally sound as the regular betta food.

I was given betta bites when we first got him but I'm not sure what is in those because they came in a little baggie with him. I then bought him the Omega One colour enhancing pellets but those are so big for his mouth so I alternate with the NLS 0.5mm pellets I was giving the tetras. I presoak all pellets. I did however buy a package of Hikari frozen blood worms yesterday from a little place near me that I found. The guy assured me that it was guaranteed to be sterilized and would contain no parasites unlike the live variety that is notorious for having parasites. I'm trying to find some alternate places to go for fish and stuff other than Petsmart and this one place had some good reviews about the owner and his store. That said, the bettas in there didn't look much better than Petsmart but then I think any place that keeps their bettas in a small cup until purchased will not have them looking too great. Even PTG didn't look very healthy at first in that small cup. 

Anyhow, I had a lengthy chat with the guy there (owner was on vacation) and he suggested putting in a live plant to help with my tank and the wonky parametres. I told him I didn't have great plant growing light and he said that java fern along with a couple of others could pretty much grow in the dark. He had lots of live plants that looked great and I picked up a java fern that was already tied to some wood. Now, he said I didn't need to add any kind of fertilizer or nourishment for the plant but I'm not convinced about this. What is your opinion on the matter? It was one of the smallest ones he had, but looks like a tree in my tank. lol It added so much though, I really love the natural look! I hope I can keep it alive. Oh, and it even came with a little hitch hiker - a cute little (and I mean tiny) snail. It must have been on the plant as I found it in the bag when I took the plant out. I put it in the tank and it quickly made it's way onto the glass. The danios tried to pick at it and I shoed them away. Right now it has found its way onto the chord of my heater and has stayed there all morning. Does the snail need any special food other than sucking things off the tank? He was an unexpected surprise. lol I don't even know what kind of snail it is. He's got a grayish shell and very small.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I am so glad PTG is getting back to normal. Yay, way to go PTG! Who knows what those parasites were doing to the poor little guy's system, I'm happy you're getting them out of him. 

Let's see. Well, I wasn't thinking a long-term downgrade per se. If you could get a small 2 gallon, even a 2 gallon fish bowl (put clingwrap on the top with holes poked in it), then PTG could stay in there after he gets out of the "hospital" and while the 10g cycles. Then he can move into the nice, cycled 10g and have plenty of space. Or, he could stay in the 2g fishbowl while the 10g AND wall tank cycle, then you can move the danios into the wall tank and PTG can have his 10g all to himself. And then you'd have the 2g for a bigger hospital/quarantine tank should the need ever arise. You should be able to heat a 2 gallon fishbowl. Anyway, some fish food for thought. I'm sure you'll be able to figure something out. 

After yet another rather bad experience at my local Petsmart I have vowed to never return there. :roll: Of all the chain pet stores I've found so far, they are the worst as far as their care of their fish. The tanks at mine are so overstocked it's a wonder every fish doesn't have fish TB. But oddly, even the bettas at my small, privately-owned LFS don't look any better so you are right: bettas in cups just don't look good, no matter where they are being sold.

Java Ferns are great, they're virtually indestructible as long as you don't do something stupid like bury the roots and plant them. Which is what I did. >.< Mine died within a week. It probably doesn't need fertilizers but a bit of Seachem Flourish won't hurt it, either. It will help it adjust to being placed in a new tank. Did he mention any other plants you might be able to use in the tank? I'm far from a plant expert and I'm struggling to keep my water wisteria and moneywort alive as we speak (speaking of Seachem Flourish, I really need to pick some up). Floating plants, I think, would do well in the tank because they could be up close to the light. I know water wisteria floats. Anubias is a good plant but I'm not sure about the light requirement. I think it is low to moderate. Again, like Java Fern, don't bury the roots and the rhizome of Anubias, they'll rot. I tied mine to a rock and just set it on the substrate. 

Haha, yes, hitchiker snails are common but beware: they multiply faster than rabbits because they can breed asexually. That said, I think they eat leftovers from the fish food and micronutrients they find on the plant and even on your glass. As long as the danios don't get to him, he should be fine eating whatever there happens to be in the tank. You're a good person to rescue him and keep him.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, that is a good idea to get a smaller tank for the interim that can be used as a hospital tank later on. It definitely beats keeping the fish in such a small container where he can't move around much. There are lots of cheap options at the pet store. I think I'll pick one up next time I go in.

I don't know what it is with the large pet stores and why their quality is sub par. They should be cleaner and better than the little places that don't have as much money to spend on making their facility great. I guess it is just the whole idea of being too big, they don't have enough qualified people to take care of their stuff properly. Smaller stores while not as fancy, at least only have a few employees to keep control of rather than hundreds and the people working in the smaller stores generally work there because they care about the animals and will do their best by them. Some of the larger store employees are just there to make money and don't care about doing menial chores like cleaning tanks etc. It's sad but it is a fact. Aside from Petsmart, I go to Big Al's as they are a dedicated fish store. Their place is gleaming and it looks like the fish are well taken care of along with the tanks. They're not all cruddy looking like at Petsmart.

I'm glad Java Ferns are that hardy. I hope I don't kill mine. I bought the kind that was several plants already tied onto the wood rather than buying the shoots and tieing it myself. This one, the guy said, I could just plop right into my tank. I didn't want anything I had to actually plant in the substrate. I don't even have soil in there. Hopefully my LED lighting will be enough. If not, I'll have to get a light I can clip onto the tank for some extra light a few hours a day. I was told moss balls were also good for low light tanks but the guy didn't recommend it. Too bad because they're kinda cute. lol

LOL I didn't know snails didn't need anyone to reproduce with! I'll have to watch out to see if one day there is more than one. It's a real cute little fellow. If he finds his way back into the plant, I'll probably never see him again, he's so small. I did want to add a cleaning crew in my tank but kept waiting for it to stabilize. I guess this little guy is going to have to hang on for the ride. I saw some cute little shrimps that I liked - I love the red ones - but the guy said the danios would probably pick them off. Maybe I will wait and put them in my wall tank. I think I would like to have a little crab and some shrimp in there. Hopefully sword tails and mollies are peaceful and won't bug them. I think they would look awesome with against that back drop. I'm planning to put very fine black only substrate in that one and let the fish and plants be the pop of colours! My current 10 gallon is cute but very bright - based on a 5 year old's choice of colours. It has mixed pink, purple and blue gravel with purple yellow and blue plants. I tried adding some black gravel to tone it down but it all got mixed in. It looks nice but not the classic look I'd like for the other tank.

Well enough yapping from me! Have a great night and I'll check in tomorrow morning!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey there, 

So I'm not sure if PTG has been having a setback or not. Yesterday and today he looked a little subdued. He seemes to be going a darker colour and just kind of hanging out at the bottom of his QT. I changed his water today and there were fuzzy bits floating in it and I panicked thinking it was fuzzy poops again. I don't think so though because there were several regular poops there as well. I think it is more the food because he has to spit it out a few times to make it small enough to eat so the little flakes that don't get eaten are probably disintegrating and getting dispersed through the water when he moves around. I will still keep an eye on it though. Now that the water is clean, if he poops and there is more of that stuff, then it's not the food. 

That leads to me to one of two conclusions; 1) maybe he is just sad being in that small place and I need to get a new tank asap, or 2) his water was getting too dirty and it was making him feel bad. I am leaning toward 30/70 in favour of the latter because I noticed when I changed his water, he was breathing a little heavy and now he is ok. I haven't been changing his water daily because several people said that too clean water is not good for them and they prefer not so crystal clean water. So I was leaving it for a couple of days but I think this is just BS and the ammonia building up in the small container was not making him happy. He seems much more alert and active than this morning. That said, he may be a tad bit bored too in his small space. 

Oh, and I just looked over and he had a poop hanging from his butt that dropped as he swam away (sorry too graphic). I siphoned it out and thankfully there was no fuzzy stuff and the poop was more brown too. I guess clean water is key in all things fish related!!!

Incidentally, the last tetra is still alive. He actually looks pretty good but I don't think he's eating all that much! I think I would be too nervous to put him back in the tank fearing he will drop whatever into the tank. :/


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## tlyons01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Hey SVC, sorry to hear that PTG may be having a hard time again. Just curious, when you say there is fuzzy stuff on the bottom, is it like clear colored fuzz? I ask because I had been wondering the same thing. Every time I change out the small tanks, I see fuzz like stuff in various sizes that sits on the bottom, until I move the siphon close and then it moves with the water. I was thinking maybe it was slime coat that they shed, or something to that effect. I try to suck it up with the poo, if I can. Maybe it has something to do with ammonia. Any how, I wanted to say that if it is as I described that you see, I think its common and I would agree that he should have his water changed more than every couple or so. I think changing 100% every day would be too clean, as the others mentioned. I am changing mine every other day, or 2nd day if I forget. I have gallon containers. I am betting he will perk right up and get back on that road to recovery. Have you thought about getting some Indian Almond Leaves? I remember someone put that out there when you first started asking about PTG in this thread, I have read that it does wonders for their health. I found some on Ebay that I ordered, knowing it is going to take many weeks to get here due to customs and distance. I did find some Betta spa stuff, that got really good reviews form users, through Amazon. I have been debating. It would be less money and take less time to get to you. Here is the link to it. 
http://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Nutriti...TF8&coliid=I21W4PE8H2F1WU&colid=381M0OG1DRGFC

If anyone else has any opinions on it, please advise. I had never heard of the stuff before, but with each new issue we learn so much more than we ever thought there was to know about Bettas, right?! My Shimmer is doing very well. Still making nests and comes to my side of the tank when I sit in my chair. Its so cute. Well, I hope I helped you and will keep PTG in my thoughts as he gets better. You can do it PTG!!! Have a great day


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi tlyons, it's great to hear from you.  I was thinking about your little Shimmer and Blewie today and it was pretty hectic around here so I didn't get a chance on the computer again until now. This is my time to relax when everyone has gone to sleep so I am on at these strange hours sometimes. lol

This fuzzy stuff has been eluding me for a while now. At first he was having it instead of poop. I think looking back in this thread, you probably saw a pic I had posted of it on the leaf hammock in his qt tank. I had no clue what it was because it wasn't long and stringy like parasite poop usually is, but it was whitish clear and well, fuzzy looking is the best way to describe it. Sakura said it almost looked like diarrhea if a fish could have diarrhea! PTG was passing that stuff for the first few days he was in the QTank and then when I started feeding him the medicated pellets, it turned to more normal consistency but still whitish. I don't know if it was parasites or what, but I'm guessing it fixed something because he is no longer floating (5 days now) and everything else pretty much looks good too. I had not even considered it might be slime coat because at the time, I knew it was poop. Today's stuff, might have been slime coat. I don't even know what it looks like when the shed slime coat. So far all his poops today have been solid (and there were a lot) so it's not that. I was guessing it might be some food flakes that he didn't eat that got dispersed but your theory may be right too. What would be a reason for them to shed their slime coat?

I have not been leaving his water for too long (like days), but it seems to be getting dirty really fast anyway with all the pooping he is doing. I guess my container is so small that it doesn't take much time to get bad in there. I should definitely not leave it longer than a day and a half at the most.

I actually have been unable to find those leaves that OFL first wrote me about. I have asked at so many places and they either don't carry them or don't have them in stock. I found some other stuff made by API called amazon extract or something like that which apparently has stuff taken from those materials but it doesn't mention that it is suitable for bettas. I have heard of the betta spa stuff and saw something similar in the small fish store I discovered the other day, but the guy didn't recommend it. It says it is non tinting and he said the purpose of the leaves is to have the tannins that turn the water yellow - that is where the benefit lies, and so he didn't recommend the extract stuff. He said they do carry the leaves, but because of laws for importing that kind of stuff from other countries, they can't get it whenever they want and that usually as soon as they get it, it's sold out. He said the next shipment was hopefully going to be in September so I said I would call back. I guess he saw how eager I was to get some so he told me to hang on and said he was going to give me some of his secret stuff. He mixed up some stuff in a small container and handed it to me. He told me to dump it in the 10 gallon tank. I guess it is something along the same lines that they don't even sell. Anyhow, since PTG is still in the QT, I didn't want to waste the stuff so I put a little bit in with his water change today. Hopefully it will do some good.

As for PTG, I can't put my finger on what may be wrong. He's not acting sick, but he's not acting perfectly healthy either. Sometimes it looks like he is clamping his fins and just sitting like that at the bottom of the tank. Then he'll start swimming around again and try to chase the danios as they swim by his QTank. Like I wrote before, he might be getting depressed in that tank. I plan on going to the pet store tomorrow and getting a small tank to put him in. I'm just scared something is wrong with him that I don't know about and I'll be too late to treat him. There is nothing outward that I can see! Do you think the medicated pellets may be too much? Maybe since he is pooping normally, I should give him a break from them?

Other than that, I just noticed tonight that there is a spot a little smaller than this letter "o" near the end of his caudal fin. It's about a cm in from the edge of his fin and it isn't a hole, but has become transparent almost like the red has worn off? I will try to get a picture but he is not swimming much with his fins open so I can't get a good angle of it. It doesn't look like fin rot and in fact his fins had been growing in wonderfully with lots of white edges of new growth. Maybe I should put him in some epsom salts to make sure whatever it is doesn't get worse. It doesn't look like something growing on the fin, more like the fin wearing out in that spot. All he has in the Qtank is the leaf hammock. Could it be an injury to the fin as he swam around the pointy part of the leaf? Maybe it happened while transporting him in and out of the container for water change?

Sorry for babbling! I'll try to get a picture of the fin and post it. I'm really happy Shimmer has been doing so great! Gotta love those bubble nests. :-D

Btw, I was over at Sakura's thread about Gershwin with the velvet that she had rescued... unfortunately, he didn't make it.  She took such great care of him but the little guy had too many obstacles to overcome and couldn't fight anymore. Sigh... just thought I'd mention it.

TTY tomorrow!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good evening, everyone.

SVC, it's amazing what clean water can do. Even if the water isn't especially dirty, just a change can perk a fish up right away. I'm so glad to hear he's pooping and not getting constipated and that his poops are looking more normal. I think he's on the road to recovery, yay! How is his buoyancy, is he doing okay in that department still?

tlyons, hi, good to hear from you. That fuzz on the bottom. I get it too and I have yet to really figure out what it is. I'm thinking it's either algae, slime coat that came off, or bacteria growing on the bottom. I suck up as much out as I can with the siphon and if it gets really bad, I do a complete change. It doesn't ever seem to bother the fish, just bugs the heck out of me. 

Regarding Indian Almond Leaves. They're really, really, really hard to find. If you find you need tannins, which is what IAL are for, you can always use dried and clean oak leaves or decaffeinated green or red tea with no extra flavors added. Both work great. The Amazon stuff you mentioned is Blackwater Extract which is used to stain the water a brown color that some fish find more soothing. I'm not sure if it's the same thing as tannins or not, I still have to research that. I also am not sure if it alters pH. Come to think of it, I don't know much about the stuff at all except its name and its general purpose, haha!

It's possible the spot on his caudal fin is new growth coming in. If he had tear or pinhole in his tail, it could be growing back. However, keep an eye out for anything that might look like parasites because bettas can sometimes get tail flukes that attach to the fins and dig in. Usually they're seen as black specks though. Maybe he had one and it fell off?

How many days has PTG been on the pellets? I would recommend he stay on them the full 14 days but if he continues to act not quite right, perhaps contact DarkMoon and see if she suggests any other kind of treatment, such as General Cure or Maracyn.

Anywayyy, I'll check in tomorrow.  Night all!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good morning Sakura,

Hope today will be a better day for you. 

Yes, I don't think it can be said enough how important clean water is when it comes to fish health. I have become a poop detective since PTG has been in the small container. Since I can see his output, I suction it out as soon as possible so it doesn't contaminate his small abode. The other day the poop was still hanging on him and I sat there just waiting for it to drop so I could get it out! I was debating suctioning it right off him. LMAO Is that sick?  Could be all that toilet training I am doing with my twins right now! Poop has literally become my life on so many levels! Ha!

PTG is enigmatic as always with his on again off again symptoms. This morning he had made a huge bubble nest again in the corner of his container. When I turned on his light, he started pouncing at the danios swimming by and eagerly chomped his food - all good things. I just don't like how he's kind of clamping his fins . Hopefully they can do that from boredom too and not just illness. Btw, I went out for a bit in the afternoon and when I came home, his bubble nest was even bigger and thicker! I feel bad the little guy is making such a good home for his babies and he can't have any. :-(

Hmm, I wonder where you would find the oak leaves. I don't have any oak trees around me but I could get decaf green tea. That might be an idea. I think the Amazon stuff actually does alter pH. I remember the guy saying something like that to me and me thinking "forget it then". I think I'll just check back for the IAL in September and if they don't get any, I'll use the green tea.

I hope he doesn't have any tail flukes! I did see this little black speck in the container and wondered what it was. I certainly hope we don't have another health crisis to deal with! I didn't see anything on the fin that looked attached to it or anything. I hadn't seen a pin hole either that might be healing but you never know. He may have snagged it on the leaf or something. It's so hard to see or take a picture because he won't stay still. 

I think PTG has been on the pellets a little over a week now so probably about mid week next week should be 14 days. After that I will try and give him some regular pellets and hopefully he will digest them properly and not have any issues. Then I will try the frozen bloodworms. I have to admit, I am not forward to thawing those and dealing with that nastiness. Ew!

Well, that's about it for now. Hopefully everyone and their bettas have a great weekend! I'll check back in again later. Oh, and I guess that member mharco just gave up. I sent him several pm's and he hasn't responded to me. Hopefully his fry are still alive.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi SVC, how are you tonight? And how is PTG? Hopefully no more buoyancy problems.  As for his other symptoms, hmm. I think they can clamp their fins from boredom too. Or he's sulking. But as long as he's not overly lethargic and laying on the bottom of the tank breathing hard, I'd just watch him for the time being.

You made me laugh so hard when you described wanting to suction the poo right off him. :rofl: I know, I kinda feel the same way sometimes. My bettas always seem to want to take a poo when a visitor comes to look at them.  Nothing like proudly showing off a betta with a string of poo hanging off. 

I personally haven't used the oak leaves because I don't have any oak trees around me, either. I have used the decaf green tea before and it works to calm them down and make them relax. You can either soak the bag in some tank water for an hour and then pour that into the tank or soak the bag directly in the tank until the water changes color. It's okay to leave tannins in there for a few days; water changes will remove it as needed.

How is PTG's tail? Any more signs of pinholes? I'm thinking it's most likely that he caught it on a plant or something. While tail flukes could cause holes like that, I think if he had one, he'd have a whoooole bunch more too. 

As for frozen bloodworms, yeah, I agree. I hate the things as much as my bettas love them. The only way I can manage to work with them is with tweezers. And also by not thinking about what I'm holding. ;-)

That's too bad at mharco but at least you tried your very best to help him. That was really great of you to go to such efforts to contact him. 

Well, it's been a long day so I'm off to bed. Oh, and I'm not going to be on the forum for a few days at least so if you have any questions or concerns, contact fightergirl2710. I hope PTG stays healthy, though.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi Sakura, 

I'm happy to report PTG seems to have put the buoyancy issues behind him for the time being. I say that because who knows what will happen if another sickness comes about?

I'm happy I made you laugh so much about the poop thing. LOL It was just hanging there and it was just like hurry up and drop that thang! haha

So about the tail thing, it doesn't seem to be a hole and when I examined it closer, I think what happened is that there has been quite a bit of new growth at the ends and that was the place that was split just before I took him out of the big tank so probably the split had healed with whitish growth and then there was more growth around the perimiter of the fin so when his fin was spread out, it looked like that place was thinner than the rest. I'm pretty sure that what it is. I am going to try to get a picture if he sits still enough and post it. Also, there is a white spot I just saw on one of his pectoral fins (those are the little fins in front of the gills right?). Woo freaking hoo! Just when I thought all this craziness is behind us. I will try to get a pic of that too and I think I will start a new thread because this one is just getting SO long. 

So, I haven't had the nerve to deal with the blood worms yet. They are sitting in my freezer and I have them in about 3 bags. lol Just the idea of that in my freezer is revolting. I thought I would just defrost them and give him a couple with a toothpick but the guy said that when it thaws, you need to drain off the blood -  say wha???? PTG, you better appreciate this and not get sick and give me a hard time!!! I hope to heaven they don't smell at least. 

Oh, just a couple of interesting things. Did you know that danios eat their own poop? That is just gross. The other day my daughter was using the magnetic glass cleaner and it stirred up some poop that was at the bottom of the tank and the danio was swimming by and slurped it up and ate it. Ew! PTG and the tetras never seemed to do that. If they mistakenly thought it was food they would grab it then instantly spit it out and keep swimming. Wouldn't that make them sick? The second thing is that my little snail that came with my plant is still alive, and I wasn't able to figure out what kind it was but I was doing some research online and I read that snails are known to carry diseases. Great! I hope this one doesn't. I think it was pretty much a baby. Anyway, by process of elimination, I am guessing it is a pond snail, apparently the worst possible kind you can get because they tend to overtake the tank and you can't get rid of them, and they also eat plants. So far I haven't seen it eating the plant, just crawling on it. I guess I should keep my eyes open for egg sacks. The last thing I need is hundreds of snails all over the place.Why can't things be simple? I just wanted a little snail to look cute in my tank and clean up some waste. Sigh... Hopefully it won't be as bad as they say.

So, I will miss you while you are away! Don't worry about us, we'll be ok. If there is anything too bad, I'll shout out to fightergirl. When you come back, you'll probably see my new thread. Have a great next few days! TTYS


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Everything okay in here? Sorry I haven't been available, I was at a convention


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> Everything okay in here? Sorry I haven't been available, I was at a convention


Haha, welcome back bahamut! Things seem to be ok. Looks like Sakura's on her way out for a few days.

I did post another thread as I saw a spot on PTG's pectoral fin today. I'm hoping it doesn't turn out to be anything serious and he's still in the QTank so I don't even know what parasite could have gotten in there with such frequent 100% water changes but anyway. I swear this boy is really giving me gray hairs!

How was your convention?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hiya SVC and PTG! I'm back and boy, did I miss reading your posts. They're always so fun to read. I'm delighted to hear PTG's buoyancy problems seem to have floated away. How is he doing in the poop department? He should just about be done with his medicated pellets, if I remember correctly. 

When I first put frozen bloodworms in my freezer, my mom kept hiding them in the back because she couldn't stand them.  They're pretty nasty things. I don't drain the blood (I prefer to think of it as red water, makes it a little easier to handle) but I probably should. I use tweezers to feed mine and thankfully, the nasty things DON'T smell. Frozen brine shrimp, on the other hand . . .  When I first got my betta Sherman, I started out feeding freeze-dried bloodworms and I was so grossed out by them that I used tweezers and a plastic baggie over my hand. The stupid worms kept crumbling and my hand got all sweaty in the bag though, so practicality won over squeamishness. The only thing I'm not sure I can do is feed live foods. I'd feel kinda bad, even it was just a mosquito larvae or something. 

Yup, because pond snails can breed asexually, they can create an army in no time flat. I think because your snail was so small, it probably didn't have any diseases. At least that's what I'm hoping. It's nice of you to keep it around. 

Any other news in the PTG department? I'll pop over and take a look at your other thread about PTG's fin. Other than that, I hope all is well with you.

And as for the danios. Well, I always knew they were pigs but I didn't realize they were THAT bad when it came to eating things. Ewww.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi Sakura! It is really good to have you back! I'm glad my posts are entertaining. I feel bad that they get so long. lol

So PTG has been doing well (fingers crossed), he has been pooping up a storm so hopefully things are moving along normally now in there. I think he can be done with the medicated pellets now, and yesterday I fasted him and I need to feed him today. I think I will start with the NLS pellets as the frozen blood worms will be new for him and they are richer than other foods so I don't want to start with something that will be hard on his digestion. Hopefully he'll do well with the pellets. 

Well thank goodness the blood worms don't smell at least and I don't plan on trying any live stuff, especially with the risk of parasites it carries. That is so funny that your mom hides them at the back of the freezer beacause she can't stand them. I wonder how long they'll sit in my freezer before I have the nerve to try feeding. lol I am so not looking forward to it.

So, as for PTG's fin. The spot is still there but it is not accompanied by any other spots anywhere. I don't really know what to make of it. He has seemed to be happy or horny  as he is non stop building bubble nests. The other day, I had to ruin one when changed his water but in half an hour he had a big one built up again in one corner. That said, it could be boredom too. Yesterday he had built a big one then next time I looked it was kind of dismantled. Now today, he has a very disorganized one. Some tiny bubbles, some big bubbles. I just hope it is not a sign of yet another thing wrong with him.

I'm not sure what to do about this white thing on his fin. Rather than go the medication route, should I try salt? Epsom or Aquarium and how much? I also have a little bit of the tannins that guy gave me last time so hopefully it will get rid of it. I can't get a decent look at it because it's on his pectoral fin which keeps moving all the time. :/

That's about it around here for now. How are all your little guys? Are you planning on rescuing anymore? It's wonderful that you do, but can take a toll when they are already sick - some beyond help. 

Hope you had a good few days.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi SVC, it's good to be back. I sure miss this place when I'm not logged on for 7 hours straight, haha. I'm so very happy PTG is doing well. Give me a high five fin, PTG! *smack* You've taken such wonderful care of him, maybe he's building all those bubblenests as a way of showing his gratitude. Or maybe he reeeeeaaaaallly wants a girlfriend. Haha, I really had to laugh at your comment on that. :lol: 

I definitely agree, starting him back with the pellets is a good idea. The last thing we want to do is upset his stomach now that you seem to have gotten it balanced. And it gives you time to work up the courage to try the bloodworms. Mostly, I just don't look at them when I prepare them. I stare at the top of my betta's head while feeding them so I don't see anything at all. I'll definitely say this: having fish has made me get way out of my comfort zone as far as squeamishness. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not . . .

The white spot on his pectoral. Hmmm. I think I would try the tannins first and see if that helps any. Does the spot look raised, or kind of slimy/cottony? Or does it look like it might possibly be fin growth? It's a bummer it's on his pectoral. Getting pics of moving bettas is hard enough but then to try and get pics on the fin they move the most is downright impossible. You did a good job with the pic on your other thread, though. And I must say PTG looks very, very handsome. 

My little guys are all doing very well, as are most of my girls. One of my girls has decided to stop eating and breathe heavily though and I have no idea why. That's all she does, just sit in her little QT and huff and puff. She doesn't even clamp her fins. So I am constantly watching her. I'm half-inclined to believe she is sulking because I took her out of the 10g community tank. She was picking on my platy who is twice as big as she is. As for rescues . . . well, I did pick up a beautiful orange guy from Wal-Mart two days ago. He had no dorsal fin at all and some of his tail looked pretty bad. Unfortunately, he didn't even make it till morning, the poor fellow. He looked like he might have had columnaris because he had strings of something coming off him. The next day, my had to literally drag me away from the betta section because I was about to buy two boys with SBD issues. "You can't save the world" he says. :/ I wish Wal-Mart would stop selling fish.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha, I know what you mean about being logged in. Btw, with 4 kids you probably wonder how I have so much time in front of the computer. lol I actually spend a lot of time in my office at home doing paperwork etc. so I just refresh the page often and give my self many breaks throughout the day. Thankfully my mom lives with us, so it affords me the convenience of being able to get my work done despite 4 crazies running around.

PTG is high fiving you right back, btw! Wouldn't that be nice if all the bubble nests are a thanks for taking such good care of me sign. I would prefer that because I would hate to have it be him needing a girlfriend and me not providing him with one and him suffering! lmao! I swear this fish has as much personality as a puppy and you don't even have to walk him in the freezing cold!!

Regarding the pellets, I'm glad you agree it's good to start back with real food this way. Hopefully his poop will be a normal betta poop!

Now this is strange. I just examined him up close with a flashlight and I don't see the white thing on his fin anymore! WTH?? I don't know if whatever it was fell off, but he is going to get a water change now and I am going to wash the bowl well with hot water so hopefully there won't be anything else lingering in there. I don't know what to say! 

I'll still keep up with tannins and actually, I bought some green tea today which says 100% Natural Premium Green Tea on it. Under Ingredients, it just says green tea. So I assume this would be the right kind to use? Also, if I just put it in his water, will it steep? I thought water had to be boiling to release the tannins properly. I guess I could boil water and put the tea bag in, then let it get to the right temp and use for his water change along with dechlorinator. What do you think? 

I'm sorry I didn't ask about your girls, I thought for some reason you only had boy bettas. my bad. I'm sorry your little girl is either sick or sulking. Hopefully it's the latter! They have such personalities sometimes. I wouldn't be surprised if that was it. Still it is best to keep an eye on her. I'm surprised to hear thought that your platy was bigger than her! I always though platys were such small fish. I guess those are only the babies. Anyway, I hope your girl will feel better soon!

Oh, I'm so sorry your latest rescue didn't make it through his first night. You know, it is irresponsible of wal mart to sell fish if they are going to neglect them so badly. I'm glad my walmart doesn't have any. I know there was one that used to have a fish dep't but I don't know if it does any longer. The new walmart supercentre that I went to didn't and I was surprised thinking such a huge location would sell them. I don't blame you for wanting to rescue a couple more. I am sure it is just agonizing seeing them in such pitiful condition.:shake:

Btw, it was really funny the other day. The little snail had found its way on PTG's Qtank and it waws slurping along the bottom and he was going nuts trying to get at it! Poor thing was banging its mouth against the bottom in an affort to get the snail. I don't think that little thing will last long in there if PTG had access! I hope it's not dumb enough to make its way inside his container. Yikes! I sure hope it's too young to have parasites and I hope it doesn't reproduce like crazy either! It's cute although I have seen a variety online called Mystery Blue Snail. Those are so pretty.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good evening, SVC and PTG,

And how is Mr. PTG doing today? Keeping his mom busy, no doubt.  That's good you can work from home, you get the best of both worlds. As for me, I spend so much time in front of the computer because I am a freelance writer. Which is just a fancy way of saying struggling and unemployed writer living at home with her parents. :roll: Someday I'm sure the creative storm will hit and I'll get something published but for now, all my writing is on this forum, haha. 

So I hear the spot on his fin has gone away. I wonder if it was a piece of dirt or lint or even some slime coat that gathered there? Either way, I'm glad it's gone. Hopefully that is the last we hear of that funny white spot. *hint hint, PTG*

I wish the weather here would cool down some more, I love hot tea. Is the green tea you bought decaf? Green tea has one of the lowest caffeine levels of all the teas but I'm not sure what even a little bit of caffeine would do to a fish. As for the steeping, I think it varies by person. I usually just plonk the teabag into the tank for an hour. Other people will boil water and prepare the tea like you would normally, then let it cool and pour it in. Still other people steep the tea in a separate cup of tank water and then pour it in. I think it depends on what you want to do. I haven't heard that boiling is needed to release the tannins properly but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. That may be why we have to boil the tea to drink it and gain its healthy benefits.

 My girls say they'll forgive you for forgetting about them if you send them food. ;-) They're the greediest little things. When I walk by their tank, they swarm all over at the front shoving each other out of the way because they think they are getting food. When I use the siphon hose in their tank, they swarm around the hose and bite at all the nasty junk I suck up because they think it's edible. Honestly, they act like I never feed them. :roll:

Unfortunately, my littlest girl (the one who picked on the platy) passed away last night. I still don't know what was wrong with her. She never clamped her fins or showed any signs she was sick except for breathing heavily and not eating. I had her in 1 tsp of AQ salt because I was afraid to medicate her, not knowing if it was bacterial or parasites or what. I now have the platy in QT just in case she got something from biting the platy. 

How is your little pond snail doing? I laughed so hard imagining PTG trying to get at it. I'm actually surprised the danios haven't gotten to it yet. Danios are, in my experience, gluttons who will eat anything. But then, you know that since yours tried to eat their own poop.  

Well, I'm off to go guzzle a soda. I swear I drink too many of those things. Talk to you later!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Hey guys, I'm going to be a tad busy so please PM me if you need me for anything!

My convention was pretty fun, and very tiring, haha


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry your little girl passed away yesterday! How long was she sick for that you knew of? It's so hard when you don't know what is wrong with them and how to help them. At least she is no longer suffering. :-(

On a positive note, I'm glad your other girls forgive me for not asking about them! I had to LOL at you saying they will accept food in exchange for their forgiveness. Hmmm, I have some nice blood worms in my freezer. Ha! Actually the way they are voracious like that reminds me of my danios. They totally flip out when I put their food in the tank and literally the pellets are gone in about 5 seconds flat. They even chase each other off and bite at each other to each make sure they get the most food. It's amazing to watch them. I don't think PTG would make it to get any food if he was in the tank with them. WOW!

My pond snail is slurping along. LOL It is a wonder it is still alive with those danios. I guess the danios have tried to pick at it and it retreats so they leave it alone since the shell is not appetizing to them. It's probably really good at hiding since there are a lot of hiding places in the tank for something as small and camouflaged as it. I'm just afraid I'll suck it up doing a water change with my siphon. I'll have to locate it first and move around it. lol

Btw, danios and gluttons are an understatement. Aside from eating their own poop, the other day the snail was on the glass and as it was moving along I saw this stuff come out the side of it's shell. Ew! One of the danios happened to be swimming by and ate it right up. Didn't even spit it out! UGH I'm really not sure I am taking a liking to these things. Is that bad to say???

Well, I better go and get some errands done. Btw, don't knock yourself about the whole freelance writing. I am sure you will do great things with your work and have things published soon. We all have to start somewhere! I certainly didn't anticipate being home with 4 kids years ago. My goal was to go to law school but then my husband (then bf) opened his own business the year I graduated with my BA and I helped him there and basically ran the business (taxes and anything paper related) side of things. Of course then we got married, had kids and law school went out the window. So I still do all of our business stuff. At least it affords me to be there for the kids which is good. Sometimes I feel stir crazy being at home all the time, but on days when it's cold and there are blizzards, there is something to be said for being at home. lol

Have a great afternoon. TTYL


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Oops btw, I forgot to say that you can ignore my green tea question on the other thread. I forgot I asked in both places and didn't check here first before asking again. Sigh... sometimes this multitasking business is tricky! lol


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi Bahamut! Thanks for the offer of PM'ing you. So far things seem to be holding steady around here so don't worry about us. We shall be here though when you have more time! 

Take care and have a great weekend!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

No rush on this Bahamut, it's fine if you see it when you check back here. Sakura, if you are around you can comment on what you think of this...

I hadn't done a water test for over a week so thought I would do one on the tank today. 

The numbers were:

pH - holding at 7.8
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
KH - 4
GH - 10

Last time I did the water test, my ammonia was between 0.5 and 1.0 

I haven't done a PWC since then and despite the waste having accumulated in a week's time my ammonia has gone down. Still no nitrates and nitrites yet. Will I start getting those once the ammonia is 0? And when the heck is my ammonia ever going to get to 0??????????? It seems I am never going to get to declare this tank cycled!

I'm hoping the live plant has helped take care of some of the ammonia as well as the ceramic discs I added to my filter. Just thought I would post this update on the tank parametres.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It sounds like, from my inexperienced perspective, that your cycle is in the middle and heading into the nitrite stage. When the ammonia starts dropping on its own, that is a sign the nitrifying bacteria are colonizing and stabilizing. I think. Fairly sure about that. If I'm right, then this is good news.  It means you are halfway through the cycling process.

And how is PTG doing? No more suspicious white spots, I hope. How is he doing on his new diet of regular pellets?


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey there Sakura and fishies (male AND females) lol! Hope you had a great weekend. I can't believe the kids are back at school. YAY! Seriously, I do miss them but it is nice to have some time to do stuff without the constant fighting/yelling etc. 

So this is what I also gathered from the ammonia coming down by itself. I just don't know why things have taken so long but then I suppose I had a mini crash before and things are just building back up. Maybe I will start seeing some nitrates/nitrites soon. 

PTG has been well and no spots any more but (yes there always is a but with him), I'm not sure the conversion to regular pellets has been going flawlessly. He hasn't really pooped much in the last couple of days. All I have seen is a tiny bit of that fuzzy diarrhea looking stuff again but this time it's not white. It's brownish. Maybe he needs a few days to adjust to the regular pellets again but I didn't want to let him get too bloated so I fasted him and will feed him some pea tomorrow. I hope he doesn't start with the buoyancy issues again. The underside of his belly is a little white and he is a bit bloated now so hopefully the pea will take care of it. Other than that he's spazzing out trying to get the danios now that are swimming by him. lol


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:/ PTG, what's wrong with your poor digestive system? How is he doing today? Maybe he just can't digest pellets well because of the wheat content? I've never heard of a betta allergic to gluten but with PTG, nothing would surprise me. He seems to enjoy rewriting the rules on bettas. :-D My only other suggestion aside from what you're doing would be to try a small frozen bloodworm. If you can. Tweezers are great. You can just pick one out and drop it in. Or, I guess, you can try him on the medicated pellets for a week more and then try the switch again. But honestly, I'm not sure it's parasites now since the poop isn't whitish. Hmm. 

I'll check back in later but I'm glad to hear he's active at least. That's a good sign.


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## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

I just had similiar issue with the female in my avatar. Had purchased some hornwort from petsmart, not sure if there were parasites or what not but a few days later my female (only one with this issue out of the 5 sorority) started acting real flaky, hiding in the corner, not eating, fins clamped. 

Due to the great information on this board she is back to normal. Tossed her in a gallon Quarantine tank, added a teaspoon of AQ salt and raised the temperature to 80+. On the 3rd day she is back to normal. Fins open, lively and has her appetite again. Gonna keep her in QT an extra day before tossing back to her normal quarters with her sisters just to make sure whatever parasites was bothering her was completely killed off due to the salt treatment


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

SVC said:


> No rush on this Bahamut, it's fine if you see it when you check back here. Sakura, if you are around you can comment on what you think of this...
> 
> I hadn't done a water test for over a week so thought I would do one on the tank today.
> 
> ...


It's good to hear that your pH is holding at 7.8. I don't remember if we established that there was ammonia in your tapwater or not? You may be doing too many water changes for the bacteria to eat properly. Darn, I seriously can't remember any of the previous things in this case. To be honest, I have never ever had a situation where my fish randomly died or got burns the second the ammonia went above the "safe" zone, I give them a little more credit than that.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey all, sorry to reply so late. It's been a couple of busy days getting the kids back to school.

Sakura, PTG is always one to bend the rules! He's a revolutionary. lol That said, I gave him some pea last night and he still hasn't pooped!! He has always pooped just hours after the pea. :/ There is however some of that fuzzy stuff again! Ugh this boy is driving me nuts! If he doesn't poop I will give him some more pea tomorrow and see what happens. I don't want to resort to the medicated pellets every time he gets stopped up because I think that would be counter productive for when he really does need the medication. Oh btw, I did find some decaf green tea so I will try that at his next water change. It says it is naturally decafeinated with carbon dioxide. I'm just afraid to introduce the blood worms if he is already having issues. Do they have a laxative effect? If they do, I may try it.

On a side note, my tetra has this white thing right above his mouth. If anything you could say it looks like a tiny milk moustache. It doesn't look fuzzy, it's about a mm wide and could almost look like you took liquid paper and drew a moustache on his lip. What could that be all about?

Scootshoot, hello and thanks for sharing. I'm glad your girl got better with all the help from this forum. Everyone is really great here. I guess Aq. salt is really great at curing a lot. Only problem is I don't have an adjustable heater and can't get my temp up past 78 degrees. I think that is going to be my next investment!

bahamut, yes, upon testing my tap water, I did discover that it has about 0.25 ammonia in it to begin with. Also, at the time I may have been doing too may water changes to lower the ammonia but now my last two water changes were a week and 9 days apart and even after 9 days the ammonia was only 0.25. 

Also, I don't think my fish died because the ammonia went above the safe level _suddenly_. I was struggling with the ammonia for quite a while beforehand and at some points it was between .5 and 1 ppm and I wasn't having any problems. Then I seemed to get over that hump and it came back down to .5 and then when I had the fish losses and the betta acting weird, I took my water in and it was at about 2ppm so they may have been struggling although not outwardly but when it spiked that high it hit them too hard. My pH had also crashed at that point so something wonky was going on and if my pH had not been that low, maybe the high ammonia would have taken the betta out too! Anyway, it is nice to know that things seem to be settling down some now although I must say those danios that are in there are sure messy things. There is so much poop in there!

Hope you all have a nice night!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

And you got tetras in your tank right? Maybe try goldfish, xD


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## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

SVC said:


> Scootshoot, hello and thanks for sharing. I'm glad your girl got better with all the help from this forum. Everyone is really great here. I guess Aq. salt is really great at curing a lot. Only problem is I don't have an adjustable heater and can't get my temp up past 78 degrees. I think that is going to be my !


Quarantine tank don't have to be that extravagant. All I have in my plastic hospital tank is a cheap stick on thermometer on the outside and a heating pad. When I see the temperature starting to hit the 85 mark I just unplug the pad. Both cost me a grand total of 5 bucks.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

bahamut285 said:


> And you got tetras in your tank right? Maybe try goldfish, xD


Uhhhh yeah, been there, done that. No thanks! Besides, I can't seem to keep gold fish alive. Don't get me wrong, they're nice and everything but in the past when I have tried to keep them, it never ends well and yes they are messy, that I know! :shock: 

The tetras weren't that bad though and my lone tetra is still in the qt now. There are only 3 danios in the main tank and all they seem to do is poop. When I use the magnetic glass cleaner, all the poop just goes flying in the water. yuk!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Oh, I meant just use them to cycle the tank. They cycle like a boss.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

scootshoot said:


> Quarantine tank don't have to be that extravagant. All I have in my plastic hospital tank is a cheap stick on thermometer on the outside and a heating pad. When I see the temperature starting to hit the 85 mark I just unplug the pad. Both cost me a grand total of 5 bucks.


oh yeah, my qtank is very basic. It actually sits clipped to the side of my main tank to maintain temperature but unfortunately my main heater is a preset kind (came with the tank I bought and I was a newbie so what did I know?) so I can't raise the temp to treat for illnesses. I need to get a better heater for my tank so that in case of something, I can't elevate the temp past 78.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi SVC! 

Here's the golden question of the day: how's PTG doing?  He's becoming my favorite little rule-breaker; I'm quite fond of him now and I love following his story. Is he digesting his food any better? I agree with you that resorting to medicated pellets every time he gets constipated or bloated is not a good idea. One frozen food you can feed that has a laxative effect is brine shrimp. It's not quite as yucky as bloodworms but they do kind of stink. Just use tweezers to pick out a teeny glob and hold it just under the surface of the water. PTG should come to nom right away. 

Danios eat and eat and eat and poop accordingly but so far, the worst I've had as far as pooping are otocinclus cats. Maybe the ones I had were defective but just in the 10 minute ride from the store to my house, they filled the bag with poo. It was incredible how much they managed to get out in that time. :shock: I ended up returning them even though I loved them because they pooped so darn much.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Good Saturday to you Sakura! The golden answer of the day is that ... drumroll please... PTG had a HUGE poop yesterday! Now this is going to make you laugh, when I saw the poop in his tank, I thought my little snail had gotten in there! It was literally the size of the snail and it even looked like the snail shape because he had pooped all the pellets (brown) and the pea was still in a solid form tucked in there just as if it was the shell with the snail peeking out. It was too weird! Honestly, I started checking the tank to make sure the snail was still in there. ;-)

So that is my exciting news for the day and that's so sweet that you like my little guy so much! He is quite a little character, just like one of my human guys. On the second day of school the teacher of one of my twins told me that my son was hilarious and kept them entertained all day. I get that a lot. The other twin is more shy and quiet but this one is like the Tazmanian devil except cuter. :-D So, I have a family of characters right down to my fish!

Yeah, you know, I was tempted a few times to take my danios back because they are just so dirty. Also, I don't think PTG likes that they have taken over his tank but the little guy is always making me worry so I never end up putting him back in because then I wouldn't be able to monitor his poop. I know, I'm being a tad overprotective I think. But he doesn't seem to be upset as he has never blown so many bubble nests as he has while in that qtank! Btw, wow on the o cats filling the bag with poop on the way home. I have heard that they are of the worst poop offenders. I definitely need to stay away from anything like that in my wall tank because I can't be in there every minute cleaning it out. I don't get how most people keep gold fish in those things!

How's everything in your neck of the woods??


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:-D Well I'm glad to see PTG's system is on the move again but I laughed pretty hard at the snail part. I'm glad the snail is okay though. Hehe, still funny . . . 

I have to admit, I didn't really like my danios very much. They seemed like they were all spazz, like they had caffeine for blood. But they WERE pretty fish so I'll give them that.  Maybe PTG likes a smaller tank. And don't worry, I understand what you mean about needing to monitor him. You're not being overprotective when you consider what a funny and unpredictable little system PTG has. 

Everything's A-OK here. I've added 3 new bettas since last we spoke, I think. I think I need bettas anonymous now. The first step is admitting you have an addiction problem. :-D The second is to avoid pet stores like your life depends on it, haha. 

Anyway, I'm very glad to hear PTG seems to be stabilizing healthwise. Definitely keep me updated on the little guy.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey there, glad to see all your brood is doing ok and that you've added 3 more! What does your mom say about that??? lol I feel like I should be on my way to a 12 step program with PTG, I had to laugh with you and all yours!!! How do you have the room for all of them since none of them can be kept together? Btw, are your new ones rescues?

Yes, PTG is such a character and I have gotten really attached to him. I wish bettas lived longer than a few years but I'll be lucky if the poor guy makes it to old age. I don't know if you saw my other thread last weekend, but I nearly killed him with the green tea.  In a nutsehell, I made up a batch of tea, let it cool and brought the temp exactly to 78 with ice cubes and conditioned the water and then took PTG out and rinsed out his container, poured the tea water in and plopped PTG in there. Luckily I had the sense to sit and watch him and he didn't react too well. He just got still and after a few minutes got pale under the beard and belly almost like he was queasy or something. I quickly made up a fresh batch of regular water with conditioner and took him out of the tea and put him in the fresh water. He started to get bubbles out of his gills again and I was afraid he was going to get swim bladder or something but he didn't. By the next day he was acting more normal and by the day after that he was building a bubble nest again. I wrote on the board to ask why he had this reaction and OFL mentioned that he probably went into osmotic shock because I didn't acclimate him to the chemistry of the tea water. DUH! I was so obsessed with getting the temp right, I didn't think that the tea might shock him. I will not be doing anything new to his tank anytime soon, I tell you!

Poor guy, no sooner does he get on the right path, something happens (usually at my hands) to push him down. :roll:

Btw, I'm glad you said you didn't like your danios much, it makes me feel better about not liking them much either. I felt so guilty like having a baby and saying I don't like this one. lol You're right though, they are very spazzy. My eyes got blurry just looking at them tear through the tank the first day! lol


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Just wanted to post my latest water parametres taken today. I think we are finally getting somewhere!

pH - 7.8 (yay still holding)
Ammonia - 0.5
Nitrites - 0.25
Nitrates -5-10ppm

Last water change I did was about 8 days ago so we are definitely due for one today. I'm glad to see there are finally some nitrites/nitrates though just to show my cycle is finally getting there! 

At this point how often should I do a water change to keep ammonia and nitrites down? Is a week apart good?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

SVC, hi! Wow, you must have been scared when PTG went into green tea shock. I never even thought about that, I always just plopped the tea bag right in and never thought about it. I'm so glad PTG is okay but I guess we've ascertained that he's not a tea drinker, haha. Whew! But don't feel bad, SVC. Without your devoted care, I doubt PTG would have made it this far. You've done great with him and I mean that. He's a very lucky guy to have such a caring owner. 

As for your water change question . . . hmm. I think a week apart sounds fine but I'm no cycling expert. If you're not sure, you can PM Bahamut or OFL or someone with more water chemistry knowledge.

Anyway, I'm really glad to hear PTG is doing okay now and I hope your weekend is going smoothly. Have fun!


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey sakura, yes it did scare me with the whole green tea business. I guess putting the tea bag into the water is not the same as what I did because the tea bag will steep slowly in colder water and the fish will become gradually acclimated. I boiled my water first so the tea was pretty strong to begin with and then I just put him in the strong tea water so it was probably too much. Now, I'm even scared to put the tea anywhere near him. lol

Thanks for saying I'm not a horrible fish parent. I take such care with most things and then there are a few things that I don't think are a big deal and that is what ends up hurting them. I am learning though so that is a good thing.

As for the water, I guess a week is sufficient to do a water change because when I was doing them too often, I wasn't giving the bacteria a proper chance to develop with all the cleaning. I am hoping if I just keep going the way I am now, eventually my ammonia will taper off and my cycle will be done. Only then will I add any fish. So far though, the danios don't seem bothered even by the ammonia or nitrites. They really must be hardy buggers! The snail is ok too. Since PTG seems content in his little home, I think I will keep him there till the tank stabilizes. Hopefully the constipation issues will settle down too. He keeps getting bloated and I have to give him peas. Yesterday he pooped a huge "snail" looking thing again and today there were a bunch of really light coloured poops which I think were still remnants of peas. He needs to poop properly with the pellets too!

How's your new little guy doing? Is the swim bladder any better?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I think since nitrates have shown up, your tank is nearing the end of its cycle. Yay! You've been waiting so patiently for that tank to stabilize and cycle.  

You might try feeding PTG frozen brine shrimp instead of pea in the long run. It'll be healthier for him and it has the same laxative effect too. Hopefully his system stabilizes soon. He hasn't had any more buoyancy issues, has he? So funny he keeps pooping "snails." He's hinting that he wants a snail roommate, maybe? ;-)

We all learn from what happens with our fish. They're great teachers, our little finny friends. Someone in the distant past had to learn the hard way all the things we now do to keep our fish healthy, like someone had to learn the hard way that the temps need to be the same or the fish can go into shock. So don't worry, fishkeeping is a learning process that never really ends.  

Yeah, danios seem indestructible. I think they'd survive a nuclear fallout. O.O Convict cichlids are also like that so I know a lot of people use them to cycle larger tanks (convicts get up to 6" big). I'm glad the danios are working out for you as far as getting the tank to cycle. 

My new little guy is still floating but at least he's floating upright and not on his side. Now if only he'd just eat . . . but we'll take it one day at a time. In the meanwhile, I really need to stay away from the pet stores. My fish "hospital" is running out of room. 

Well, happy weekend! Too bad it's almost over, boo.


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## SVC (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, I have been very (impatiently) patient waiting for this tank to cycle! I'm glad it is getting there. I'm thinking all the medicating I did earlier on wiped out the good bacteria that had not yet taken hold properly.

I might look into getting the brine shrimp if that is better than the pea, and no, thankfully PTG has not had anymore buoyancy issues. I think it was probably due to the parasites or whatever was ailing him last month. I thought he came close last week when the green tea incident happened (he started blowing bubbles out of his gills) but thankfully he didn't start floating.

I'm glad your little guy is at least floating upright now. It shows that things are going in the right direction and hopefully he will start eating and soon be able to swim again. I am just imagining what this fish hospital of yours must look like! You have so many! lol I'm going to call you Dr. Sakura from now on. ;-)

Well, I hope you have a wonderful weekend too, what's left of it. I am going to a BBQ later on this afternoon. In my neck of the woods, this will be one of the last outdoor get togethers before the cold weather hits! Definitely BOO on that! :/


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