# Critiques on my Double Tail please?



## aemaki09

So I found this guy the other day and am really interested in breeding him. So I'd like your critiques please!
Sorry about the poor quality pics.

Thanks in advance!


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## homegrown terror

is he from a chain pet store, local pet store or a breeder? if he's from a chain store, then right off the bat it's a no. pet store bettas have genetics like a flower-laden minefield: beautiful to look at, but dangerous stuff could be lurking underneath such as recessive deformities that he doesn't express but the babies could. if he's from a local, family owned pet store, there's a good chance they can put you in touch with his breeder, who can give you a rundown of his lineage, and better prepare you for the kind of fry he'll produce. if he's a direct breeder sale, then what i said just there goes as well.

personally i would NOT try to breed him. his topline is really lumpy (beyond a "flaw" to a "deformity" i'd say) and the leading edge of his dorsal tapers way too much. his tail is fairly symmetrical, but the upper lobe is noticeably smaller than the lower, resulting in what's called a "mitten tail." i personally think mitten tails are adorable, but unless you know fifty to two hundred people who'd love to have a red and blue mitten tailed betta, you're gonna have a hard time finding homes for his fry, since he, and most likely his offspring, will never be show/breeder quality bettas.


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## Setsuna

I say just do it reguardless wat other people say. You never know untill you try it. So wat if you dont know where he came from or what is parents look like. Just find him a red split tail/double tail and your set good luck


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## aemaki09

Thanks!, I wanted to know what people thought of him other than "oh hes cute!" And I will have to think about it some more before/if I go through with a spawn.


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## Mo

homegrown terror said:


> is he from a chain pet store, local pet store or a breeder? if he's from a chain store, then right off the bat it's a no. pet store bettas have genetics like a flower-laden minefield: beautiful to look at, but dangerous stuff could be lurking underneath such as recessive deformities that he doesn't express but the babies could. if he's from a local, family owned pet store, there's a good chance they can put you in touch with his breeder, who can give you a rundown of his lineage, and better prepare you for the kind of fry he'll produce. if he's a direct breeder sale, then what i said just there goes as well.
> 
> personally i would NOT try to breed him. his topline is really lumpy (beyond a "flaw" to a "deformity" i'd say) and the leading edge of his dorsal tapers way too much. his tail is fairly symmetrical, but the upper lobe is noticeably smaller than the lower, resulting in what's called a "mitten tail." i personally think mitten tails are adorable, but unless you know fifty to two hundred people who'd love to have a red and blue mitten tailed betta, you're gonna have a hard time finding homes for his fry, since he, and most likely his offspring, will never be show/breeder quality bettas.


Homegrown terror... Pet store Bettas aren't much different than Thai imports in regards to genes most of the time. I remember hearing from breeders that there's no difference between seeing a nice fish on Aquabid and a nice fish in a petstore because you never know the genetics of each one most if the time..

Also.. I don't really like this fish, he's nice but not the quality I would go for


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## Myates

Pet store bettas are fine to breed... many people that have won shows have won with fish bred down from pet store bettas. It's people's personal preference on what they wish to breed, and where they got their fish - but store bettas are just as good as all the rest.

He is pretty in an unique/color way, but that is about it, imo..


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## ChibreneyDragon

Honestly the "Beware Petstore Genetics" is a hoax. The majority of chain stores get their bettas FROM the same thailand breeders that sell on Aquabid, the ones on Aquabid just tend to have a higher quality. Even the local privately owned petstore I go to gets imports.

It may take more time looking for the appropriate matches and quality, and more spawns to breed down the line, but you could truly get some amazing results.

And its sad, but if you have deformities, you can always cull your spawn to pare down the amount of fish to improve your line.


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## aemaki09

So what if I bred him to a good quality CT female I have? I am really just looking to improve finnage?


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## ChibreneyDragon

aemaki09 said:


> So what if I bred him to a good quality CT female I have? I am really just looking to improve finnage?


Try looking for a DT plakat, or if you KNOW a breeder, find a DT genotype.


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## homegrown terror

ChibreneyDragon said:


> Honestly the "Beware Petstore Genetics" is a hoax. The majority of chain stores get their bettas FROM the same thailand breeders that sell on Aquabid, the ones on Aquabid just tend to have a higher quality. Even the local privately owned petstore I go to gets imports.
> 
> It may take more time looking for the appropriate matches and quality, and more spawns to breed down the line, but you could truly get some amazing results.
> 
> And its sad, but if you have deformities, you can always cull your spawn to pare down the amount of fish to improve your line.


i thought most chain petstores got theirs from industrial breeders like segrest farms, not from independent breeders, either domestic or import.


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## Sena Hansler

Some stores do get them from USA mass bred places. Because it is cheaper, then to import from thailand. Not all stores get them from thailand. I know this about stores in MY area. 

To be honest however, it is up to YOU what to breed. My doubletail does have the "mitten tail" as mentioned above, but it is not as noticeable. The cool thing about bettas is that you find another, to offset the "bad" in a fish and create something wonderful. How else would half-moons, doubletails, etc exist? Magically? Unlikely! It took time, effort, and someone who wanted perfection to create such finnage.

Although I will say I do notice the uneven head, which can be like spoonheads where some of the fry may or may not get it. You just never know... Personally I wouldn't breed him for that reason, but again it is up to you


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## homegrown terror

honestly it's his back that's bothering me the most...he's got a VERY pronounced hump under his dorsal fin.


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## Basement Bettas

Setsuna said:


> I say just do it reguardless wat other people say. You never know untill you try it. So wat if you dont know where he came from or what is parents look like. Just find him a red split tail/double tail and your set good luck


The fish is very faulty so what do you hope to accomplish by breeding? Making the breeder feel all warm and fuzzy? And you NEVER breed DT x DT. A Dt x ST will give you bent spines and short stubby bodies.. why do you want to double up on that?

Bringing ANY life into the world should be done responsibly. What happens when you get a large spawn? And you are trying to jar 100+ fish? How about the 2-3 hours every night doing water changes? All for fish that have no purpose. And when you get tired of all the work they rot and suffer. No chain will take local fish. And the mom and pops at least want some quality. That bumpy topline will end up in a lot of his offspring.. no one selling fish wants that. Are you prepared to humanely kill all those fish? He is a pet and should not be bred.


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## Basement Bettas

Myates said:


> Pet store bettas are fine to breed... many people that have won shows have won with fish bred down from pet store bettas. It's people's personal preference on what they wish to breed, and where they got their fish - but store bettas are just as good as all the rest.
> 
> He is pretty in an unique/color way, but that is about it, imo..


I seriously doubt the winners at shows come from pet shop stock. Know most people showing and can only say one.. in the NB classes has used pet shop stock. Until those fish can win in the open standard classes.. best to say show winning fish come from the better lines. And most of us are pretty picky who we buy from..


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## ChibreneyDragon

Basement Bettas said:


> I seriously doubt the winners at shows come from pet shop stock. Know most people showing and can only say one.. in the NB classes has used pet shop stock. Until those fish can win in the open standard classes.. best to say show winning fish come from the better lines. And most of us are pretty picky who we buy from..


See, unfortunately, to me that makes no sense. Genetics are passed from parents, of which most pet shops now adays receive from Taiwan. I agree that this fish shouldnt be bred, but saying that you cant get "show Quality" fish from breeding a line from petstores is mildly biased.

I've actually found better lines on a fish from petco than the one I bought on Aquabid. The fish that are sent en mass to petstores just need a well discerning eye, and a little patience and time to breed to F3 and onward for show quality.

And truly, you DO need a business license to sell to chains, but those mom and pop stores WILL take culls..even if it is to feed their predator fish.


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## Basement Bettas

ChibreneyDragon said:


> See, unfortunately, to me that makes no sense. Genetics are passed from parents, of which most pet shops now adays receive from Taiwan. I agree that this fish shouldnt be bred, but saying that you cant get "show Quality" fish from breeding a line from petstores is mildly biased.
> 
> I've actually found better lines on a fish from petco than the one I bought on Aquabid. The fish that are sent en mass to petstores just need a well discerning eye, and a little patience and time to breed to F3 and onward for show quality.
> 
> And truly, you DO need a business license to sell to chains, but those mom and pop stores WILL take culls..even if it is to feed their predator fish.


When your name is in the top 5 breeders.. THEN you can tell me you get good stock from the LFS. You probably do not even have an eye for form or color as it relates to the show ring. There are a lot of worthless fish on AB right now too.. mutts that they want $25 each or more from. There are a few good breeders on AB that have show quality stock. The rest are interesting.., but not worth their price and the fees to import. And I sure don't want their genetics in my fish room. And as a breeder I don't care to spend 3 or more seasons breeding and sorting out the genetic dump. I want improvement in F1 or it is not worth my time.

The other draw back with the LFS is they go to mass holding areas and pick up disease. At least I know if I buy from so and so that fish has been bred well and kept as healthy as possible. They are not cattle like the ones shiped to pet shops. 

Again.. if you want to breed pet shop fish.. knock your socks off. This area of this forum is for those that want to show. And to get the best results in the show ring you MUST have quality fish. RARELY will they come from a pet shop. Do you not think I take the time to look when I got to a lfs? The competition in shows is stiff. If you want to discuss breeding pet quality fish there is another area of the forum that will encourage you. You post here and it is going to looked at thorough a breeder's eye that shows. And we are gonna tell you to get the best quality you can. And that means finding a US breeder with stock or taking a chance on the better AB breeders.


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## aemaki09

I didn't end up breeding him. I didnt notice the hump until after you guys pointed it out somehow. I had to euthanize him bc of dropsy last week. I've got a few others I'm going to ask you all to critique here in a few days though


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## ChibreneyDragon

Basement Bettas said:


> When your name is in the top 5 breeders.. THEN you can tell me you get good stock from the LFS. You probably do not even have an eye for form or color as it relates to the show ring. There are a lot of worthless fish on AB right now too.. mutts that they want $25 each or more from. There are a few good breeders on AB that have show quality stock. The rest are interesting.., but not worth their price and the fees to import. And I sure don't want their genetics in my fish room. And as a breeder I don't care to spend 3 or more seasons breeding and sorting out the genetic dump. I want improvement in F1 or it is not worth my time.
> 
> The other draw back with the LFS is they go to mass holding areas and pick up disease. At least I know if I buy from so and so that fish has been bred well and kept as healthy as possible. They are not cattle like the ones shiped to pet shops.
> 
> Again.. if you want to breed pet shop fish.. knock your socks off. This area of this forum is for those that want to show. And to get the best results in the show ring you MUST have quality fish. RARELY will they come from a pet shop. Do you not think I take the time to look when I got to a lfs? The competition in shows is stiff. If you want to discuss breeding pet quality fish there is another area of the forum that will encourage you. You post here and it is going to looked at thorough a breeder's eye that shows. And we are gonna tell you to get the best quality you can. And that means finding a US breeder with stock or taking a chance on the better AB breeders.


Aren't you the snob. I've taken plenty of advise from people I respect on this site, unfortunately, I find it hard to respect you as a person.

I admire your bettas, but your general attitude towards other enthusiasts and breeders is wanting.

I've never entered in shows, and I dont really plan too, because my interest is in the study of the actual genetics. I study the standard put out by IBC, and the information put out by various breeders. I study the stagnation of genetics of insular breeding, of "pureblood" breeding as similar to dog breeding. You breed too closely, and tons of genetic anomalies and issues pop up, and this especially seems to happen when people constantly cull out characteristics they deem "ugly" or not "show standard".

You may think you are all that, but learn some manners before going all pretentious on others who may just enjoy the beauty of breeding their own fish.


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## dramaqueen

Well, this IS a thread in the show section of the forum so you're going to get honest opinions from breeders. In the future, to avoid arguments I feel it's best to post threads about fish that are pets in other sections and leave this section for show fish and questions pertaining to show fish.


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## ChibreneyDragon

dramaqueen said:


> Well, this IS a thread in the show section of the forum so you're going to get honest opinions from breeders. In the future, to avoid arguments I feel it's best to post threads about fish that are pets in other sections and leave this section for show fish and questions pertaining to show fish.


I apologize. I've been studying the genetic lines of fish, and being told that you CAN NOT do it except the way that someone else says just got my back up.

I believe it may take time for a person willing to do it, and I understand why someone who is a frequent of shows would not want to waste the time on it. 

But having someone insult my ability to recognize or follow the standard set by the IBC or another Betta conglomerate was just plain ignorant to me. I have eyes to see, and to read. I will accept opinions, and knowledge to fill gaps of ignorance, but not insults to my intelligence.


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## bryzy

Beautiful colors, nice split. Go for breedin! You'd have a beautiful outcome!


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## Olympia

I agree with dramaqueen.
In this section you are looking for fish that will produce quality right off the bat. We do have a regular breeding section as well for pet fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon

Olympia said:


> I agree with dramaqueen.
> In this section you are looking for fish that will produce quality right off the bat. We do have a regular breeding section as well for pet fish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with what Dramaqueen said, but if someone does not have the money to buy top show quality bettas to breed off the bat, then how are they to go about asking breeders on how to eventually breed to show quality?

Keep in mind, I dont want to offend Basement Bettas Opinion, or anyones.

But if someone can take wilds, and get VT, and then Deltas, and then HM, and breed up to perfection, or take a regular HM with fringing, and eventually breed a unique looking CT, then where can they get this advice?

If it is in the pet betta section, people automatically assume they are not aiming for show standards.


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## Olympia

Realistically I think it will be much more expensive to start with low quality fish and breed for generations than to spend a little extra on good fish. But maybe that's not true.

I don't think anyone here has started from bad fish and gotten amazing fish.. This takes years and years and years to accomplish, frankly more years than the human lifespan can allow, if we are taking wild types and breeding to half-moon. Look how long it took us to get this far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BiasedBettas

From reading this post and others in this section... it just seems like BasementBettas is rude to the point of being cocky. Sorry, but that is the truth and everyone here knows it. Even you MODs. If anyone else wrote like that in this forum, they would be reprimanded, but you guys give BB too much leeway to the point of favoritism and even defending how that member is. Yes that person won many awards, but that does not give them the right to bash people, which is what has been happening not only on this post, but others. 

Please, treat everyone EQUALLY. This post will most likely get deleted I'm sure.. but someone had to say it. 

Sorry.


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## crowntaillove3

:-DIf you want to breed, go for it! It is your fish, and with some flaws, he is beautiful! Nice colors, but his fins aren't the best. I say who cares! Your decision, and personally, I would be happy to have a betta that beautiful!


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## dramaqueen

BasementBettas has been reprimanded before. Sometimes the way people post and their wording can come off sounding rude and cocky but BasementBettas is neither of those when you get to know her. She's very knowledgeable and I trust her opinion. If anyone has an issue with the moderators on this forum then I suggest you take it up privately with them.


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## DiiQue

The mods here are some of the best and hardest working mods on the net. They keep everyone in check.


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## ChibreneyDragon

Olympia said:


> Realistically I think it will be much more expensive to start with low quality fish and breed for generations than to spend a little extra on good fish. But maybe that's not true.
> 
> I don't think anyone here has started from bad fish and gotten amazing fish.. This takes years and years and years to accomplish, frankly more years than the human lifespan can allow, if we are taking wild types and breeding to half-moon. Look how long it took us to get this far.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is an interesting thought, and I almost want to say CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. But from wild to HM would be insane, although the concept of HM hadnt even been thought of. If you have the general idea of the end result, it may only take a few years from VT.

I may start a decisive blog. Go to my LFS, pick out several of their best, and see how long that takes to attain a show quality fish. That may actually fit right in with my study... Cool beans, Bro.

I love the MODs here, and I love the work yall do.


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## LittleBlueFishlets

ChibreneyDragon said:


> I agree with what Dramaqueen said, but if someone does not have the money to buy top show quality bettas to breed off the bat, then how are they to go about asking breeders on how to eventually breed to show quality?
> 
> Keep in mind, I dont want to offend Basement Bettas Opinion, or anyones.
> 
> But if someone can take wilds, and get VT, and then Deltas, and then HM, and breed up to perfection, or take a regular HM with fringing, and eventually breed a unique looking CT, then where can they get this advice?
> 
> If it is in the pet betta section, people automatically assume they are not aiming for show standards.


I think there are some good questions in the above post.

Say someone wants to breed show-quality fish. Could this person simply contact someone like BasementBettas, and ask to purchase two quality fish?... 

(I ask because I'm more familiar with dogs -- and to get a quality dog, you need to be "known" to the breeders before they will sell you one of their pups. And even if they sell to you, it's likely on a "limited" registration that won't allow you to show the dog yourself. (Then again, dogs don't have spawns of 100+ fish! LOL))

I also like ChibreneyDragon's question about breeding new and unique fish. SOMEONE had to start the progression. So how would a show-quality breeder work to create something new, that would be accepted for showing? After all, when the first HM's were bred, there was no IBC class for them. But someone needed the vision to think "Gee, this looks like a good breeding pair."... Is it just a matter of seeing that judges are giving lots of awards to, say, bettas will fuller fins - and therefore more breeders aim towards getting fuller fins.... And eventually, this leads to a new class for HMs?


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## ChibreneyDragon

It doesnt really seem like a challenge if you just bought a pair from a single breeder. Then it wouldnt be UNIQUE to YOU. If I were going into the show cirquit, I would probably buy from two seperate breeders, and aim for something different... Otherwise its just like... You dont really have any credit for your fish...because they are the OTHER breeders fish, you just spawned them. Or am I being neurotic?


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## dramaqueen

To breed show quality fish you should start with show quality stock. But petstore bettas CAN be bred and I was told that if the offspring meet the proper standards they can be shown. Petstore fish should be bred with as much care and responsibility as show fish.


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## LittleBlueFishlets

ChibreneyDragon said:


> It doesnt really seem like a challenge if you just bought a pair from a single breeder. Then it wouldnt be UNIQUE to YOU. If I were going into the show cirquit, I would probably buy from two seperate breeders, and aim for something different... Otherwise its just like... You dont really have any credit for your fish...because they are the OTHER breeders fish, you just spawned them. Or am I being neurotic?


OK, I see your point.  If the breeder said "Here are your two fish," then, yes, you're just spawning them.

But say YOU were the one to choose your pair from a lot of different fish that a breeder had. I don't know how many fish a breeder would have at once, but I'm thinking it would be quite a few.... And if you wanted to breed for fuller fins, you would select a different breeding pair than if you wanted breed for some other characteristic. So it would be up to you to decide which fish you want, based on the characteristics you want to develop. 

Also, even if two breeders are trying to breed for the exact same characteristic, they might not select the same two fish. You might pick fish "A" and "B," but someone else might think he/she would get better results by selecting "A" and "C." 

So in these cases, even if you selected the fish from a single breeder, you'd still need to decide which fish would give you the results you want....

Or, as you said, you could just buy from different breeders, which allows you to look at more breeders' fish -- and probably none of us minds doing that! Just look how popular the "Aquabid thread" is, as we all drool over the pretty fish. LOL


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## ChibreneyDragon

dramaqueen said:


> To breed show quality fish you should start with show quality stock. But petstore bettas CAN be bred and I was told that if the offspring meet the proper standards they can be shown. Petstore fish should be bred with as much care and responsibility as show fish.


This is what interests me. My aunt breeds pugs, and my friends mother breeds rottwielers. Now. In dogs, breed standard has gotten AMAZINGLY specific. But from their experiences, and case studies, "pureblood" pups and dogs have a HUGE amount of health defects, like hip displasia or psychological problems.

Bull terriers actually have the predisposition for severe OCD. Breeders speculate this can be solved by careful crossbreeding to expand the genepool.

Now, with Bettas, is this a similar case? Is fin biting and egg eating a genetic disorder? Is the noticable decline in "good daddies" a genetic defect bred into these fish due to our singlminded quest for specific traits?

Ive been breeding VT and some of the more worked on forms like DT and HM...VT show ten times better ability at spawning and nest mouthing than the more refined bettas. I plan on expanding upon this...perhaps I should make a new thread elsewhere, but I suspect the quick goal of getting straight to the show quality fish is weakening the genetic pool of these form types.


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## Basement Bettas

Breeding is only the start. The fish have to be raised and keeping HM finnage in perfect shape into and through a show season is no easy task. You may start with a pair from a breeder.. but the reality is it is still WORK to get them to be show fish. And siblings are best to start as you have traits you want often in both fish. Combining two unrelated fish will give genetic dumps and the traits you want rarely in a majority of fish. No need to reinvent the wheel. Take advantage of what another breeder has accomplished and go from there.


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## Basement Bettas

Breeders take different routes. Line breed 10 generations to fix something. Out cross every third generation, breed parallel lines. Start on one path and change to another. I do not like a lot of line breeding personally as I think the fish lose some aggression. But other breeders are successful at it. We all have different water, different amounts of time to spend, different ideas on feeding. I have found most egg eating in my house was due to bad water. Corrected the water and no more eating eggs. I still get one here and there.. but not enough to say a problem. Also remember many fish are shipped half way around the world to very different water and feeding. Can understand the spawning issues there. I don't tend to have issues with fish I have bred and raised. I also spawn early.. which in nature they do. Spawning a year old betta for the first time is like telling a 60 year old man it is now time to have kids.


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## ChibreneyDragon

I do follow your blog on what you do, and think your work is inspired, but this is something that I have been following since I started biology class in middle school.
I understand the top breeders perspective but this possibility of restrengthening bad defects is something that I have to test out, because it is a trend followed in other species.

Other people dont have the time or the resources for this, but I do. Wouldnt YOU want to know if eventually ten years from now, it is even MORE difficult to breed the fish that you love? To care for them? Or the possibility that the amount of selective breeding and inbreeding has shortened their lives considerably?


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## Olympia

But.. Would your aunt take a pug from a pet store to her line? Puppy mills and fish mills are quite similar. I'm sure dog breeders would argue that a pet store dog would be more trouble to breed up than it's worth as well.. 

I am not sure what sort of defects you are talking about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChibreneyDragon

She has taken adult dogs from non certified breeders. As long as they were clear of defects and close to the standard, she begat from two of those litters dogs that WERE show quality, the only issue with the dog scene is that with a lot of "pedigree" dogs, even if they are perfect, it is really difficult to get the pedigree without parent pedigree as well.

This is why the Rotties were never bred without parent pedigrees... She didnt want to deal with any shinannigans. But a lot of her pups bred from the pedigree parents werent show quality.


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