# Prime in small tanks



## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Hey friends! I had a water conditioner question for you all. I have a 3.5 gallon tank so the amount of prime I should be using is less than 1 ml. My betta has been having some air gulping issues and I’ve ruled out water parameters, filtration, temperature issues and have recently ordered an air stone.

I read an article that says prime can use up oxygen when taking chemicals like chlorine out of your water.
Since my tank is so small, I was wondering if my water conditioner (or using slightly too much) could be a contributing factor. Someone told me it’s 2 drops of prime per gallon which is much more helpful to me since my tank is so small. Is that correct?

Also when I do a water change, should I be adding the amount of prime for the whole tank or just to the water I am replacing. I have been adding the amount of prime for the full tank volume when I do a water change. Is that-correct? Thank you!


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

I'm interested in the answers, so I'm following this


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

I'll be honest and say this is why I have palpitations over anything smaller than than a 5 gal tank because changing less than 5 liters for a %20 water change makes measuring the conditioner a wee bit of a nightmare. Especially with Prime, 5ml per 200 L that 1ml would do %100 water change on a 40L/10USgal tank. That's why I use Aqua Care water conditioner, it's 5ml per 20L (5gal) so probably a lot more forgiving if you accidentally double dose. That's personal preference though. I also have Prime just incase because it's also got an ammonia lock that AquaCare doesn't but Prime is not the default one I use for a standard water change.

Edit to make sure I covered the question: I'll hedge my bets if you're regularly overdosing for the % of the water you actually need to treat that probably is building up over time, so yes, try to only dose for the volume of new water. GL


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Asbofish said:


> I'll be honest and say this is why I have palpitations over anything smaller than than a 5 gal tank because changing less than 5 liters for a %20 water change makes measuring the conditioner a wee bit of a nightmare. Especially with Prime, 5ml per 200 L that 1ml would do %100 water change on a 40L/10USgal tank. That's why I use Aqua Care water conditioner, it's 5ml per 20L (5gal) so probably a lot more forgiving if you accidentally double dose. That's personal preference though. I also have Prime just incase because it's also got an ammonia lock that AquaCare doesn't but Prime is not the default one I use for a standard water change.
> 
> Edit to make sure I covered the question: I'll hedge my bets if you're regularly overdosing for the % of the water you actually need to treat that probably is building up over time, so yes, try to only dose for the volume of new water. GL


Ok thank you for responding. 
Are you saying I should do 100% water change this time around since I may have already overdosed (over time) the water that is currently in my tank?
Will that mess with the fact that my tank is already cycled?


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

I would do a full %100 and do one last dose for that %100 because then theoretically it's at the proper ratio, your cycle shouldn't stall because the good bacteria should be living in your filter and on surfaces by now. It _might_ I can't guarantee it wont because I never worked with anything under 5gal as I say but if you are doing your water changes with Prime anyway which temporarily nulifies the ammonia and nitrite it should see you through a recycle if it comes to it. But I honestly do not expect your tank to cycle again for a full water change as long as you're not changing filter media and rinsing the substrate at the same time.
Just for context on what I'm basing this on: The main hassle I had with my first full water change when I had a micro community in a 10 gal was having to wait for the new water to reheat back to what my fish were used to before I could put them back in but I didn't have to cycle again.
But it's your tank so that's a call you have to make for yourself.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Yes, Prime is two drops per gallon. The oxygen depletion is only if you terribly overdose or your tank is low in oxygen, already. Prime is safe at five times the recommended dosage. There's no accumulation as Prime evaporates after 48 hours. That is why it is recommended to dose between water changes during cycling.









FAQ: Is it possible to overdose Seachem Prime®?


Prime® is very safe and quite difficult to overdose to the point of harming tank inhabitants, but a large enough overdose can start to deplete the system of oxygen. This effect is temporary, typic...




seachem.zendesk.com





Just do your regular water changes; no need for a 100%.

If your Betta is having issues it's doubtful it's the Prime. You can start a thread in Diseases and Emergencies. Make sure to fill out this form and provide photos.









*****PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Fill out this form so...


Many thanks to BF/TFK Member Mike for developing this questionnaire. It is the same form with a few additions. Please copy and paste into a new message and complete this form when seeking help for your Betta. This information and a clear photo posted directly into the thread will help us give...




www.bettafish.com


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

@RussellTheShihTzu Cheers for that, seems I was running on the false assumption prime worked like a medication. Happy to be proven wrong in this case, phew.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I've been doing this 60+ years and I still learn something new almost every day.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Asbofish said:


> I would do a full %100 and do one last dose for that %100 because then theoretically it's at the proper ratio, your cycle shouldn't stall because the good bacteria should be living in your filter and on surfaces by now. It _might_ I can't guarantee it wont because I never worked with anything under 5gal as I say but if you are doing your water changes with Prime anyway which temporarily nulifies the ammonia and nitrite it should see you through a recycle if it comes to it. But I honestly do not expect your tank to cycle again for a full water change as long as you're not changing filter media and rinsing the substrate at the same time.
> Just for context on what I'm basing this on: The main hassle I had with my first full water change when I had a micro community in a 10 gal was having to wait for the new water to reheat back to what my fish were used to before I could put them back in but I didn't have to cycle again.
> But it's your tank so that's a call you have to make for yourself.


Thanks so much Asbofish! I was kind of thinking the same thing about doing a water change. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> I'm interested in the answers, so I'm following this


So Mbpoppy, from everything I’m hearing it sounds like you and I were going about it wrong. From now on I will only be dosing the new water I add. Not the whole tank volume. Thanks again for the info about 2 drops per gallon. That was a huge help! I hope this New system helps us both keep healthier happier fish. 😃


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Fishnewby said:


> I hope this New system helps us both keep healthier happier fish. 😃


absolutely


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Fishnewby said:


> So Mbpoppy, from everything I’m hearing it sounds like you and I were going about it wrong. From now on I will only be dosing the new water I add. Not the whole tank volume. Thanks again for the info about 2 drops per gallon. That was a huge help! I hope this New system helps us both keep healthier happier fish. 😃


Abofish and Mbpoppy,
I just wanted to say thank you! I wanted to wait until my betta was a few days in to recovery to message you. She is doing beautifully! I did a 100% water chance (like one of you said) and added prime using drops (like the other one of you said). Without this advice, my girl was heading downhill fast. She is her old self again. Thank you both so much for your advice and help!
Turns out she was showing symptoms of SBD but it was really just water toxicity from too much prime built up in her tank over time. I now know just to dose the water I change and not the whole tank. I really appreciate you both so much. So good to see her doing well 😃.

i did get an air stone but I took it out. I think the 3.5 gallontank was too small for it. It created a lot of disturbance and current in her little tank and she didn’t look happy. She was fighting to swim. I didn’t want to stress her out after all she’s been through.
I do like the idea of oxygenating her water so maybe I’ll get a bigger tank for her in the future. I just wanted to say thanks again and tell you how much I appreciated your help. Have an awesome weekend!


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Fishnewby said:


> So good to see her doing well 😃.


This is awesome news!! Good on you !


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Glad she's doing so much better. 

Please keep in mind, though, that Prime does not accumulate but evaporates every 24-48 hours so toxicity from it is highly unlikely. "This effect is temporary, typically lasting _an hour_ _at most_ (emphasis mine)..."** You would need to be dosing 30 drops every 24 hours: 3 x 2 = 6 (normal dose) x 5.

It is possible something else in the tank caused her air gulping and the 100% water change removed it....permanently, we hope. So continue to keep a close watch.

**SeaChem web site


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

Fishnewby said:


> Turns out she was showing symptoms of SBD but it was really just water toxicity from too much prime built up in her tank over time. I now know just to dose the water I change and not the whole tank. I really appreciate you both so much. So good to see her doing well 😃.


I'm glad to hear she's doing better.
Regarding Russell's point though it may be worth jotting down a full inventory of everything that is currently in the tank and ever has been in the tank. It could even be a decoration that either had some manufacturing dust still on it, or isn't BPA free. Because if your tank is fully cycled but the issue comes back it would strongly suggest something leaching into the water, and that list would be super handy investigative wise to bump this thread with.
Hopefully it won't come to that and it's been fixed tho.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Glad she's doing so much better.
> 
> Please keep in mind, though, that Prime does not accumulate but evaporates every 24-48 hours so toxicity from it is highly unlikely. "This effect is temporary, typically lasting _an hour_ _at most_ (emphasis mine)..."** You would need to be dosing 30 drops every 24 hours: 3 x 2 = 6 (normal dose) x 5.
> 
> ...


Ok, wow! Thanks for the info. Good to know. There was definitely something going on with the water though even though the parameters tested perfect. It was cloudy and there was a film on the top. She was definitely gasping for air. Once I did a 100% water change, she was her old self again. I change the water and test it weekly so my best guess was the conditioner. I was definitely using too much. I’m not sure what was going on but I’m so glad she’s better. Thanks again for the info and well wishes!


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

D


Asbofish said:


> I'm glad to hear she's doing better.
> Regarding Russell's point though it may be worth jotting down a full inventory of everything that is currently in the tank and ever has been in the tank. It could even be a decoration that either had some manufacturing dust still on it, or isn't BPA free. Because if your tank is fully cycled but the issue comes back it would strongly suggest something leaching into the water, and that list would be super handy investigative wise to bump this thread with.
> Hopefully it won't come to that and it's been fixed tho.


all good points. Will do! Thanks so much!


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

Fishnewby said:


> Ok, wow! Thanks for the info. Good to know. There was definitely something going on with the water though even though the parameters tested perfect. It was cloudy and there was a film on the top. She was definitely gasping for air. Once I did a 100% water change, she was her old self again.


Oh! That could also have been a biofilm, if it's not broken up it can interfere with the gas exchange between water and air.
If you can turn your filter outflow to break or aggitate the surface tension of the water that might help stop that. Just for example I turned my outlet into the corner to make a wave while the rest of the tank has a mild flow (will add pic).








Off the top of my head aside from a product leaching something it ought not to have, this is potentially the other culprit.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Agree with Asbofish. If you have don't have a filter or the flow is on so low that there is biofilm on the surface, she can't breathe properly. Water isn't oxygenated enough for gills and the biofilm kept her from using her labyrinth.

If you read the information in the link, then you know it was NOT a Prime overdose, which is nearly impossible, but that she was living in a low oxygen environment.

Edit: I've been stating something wrong. The recommended dose of Prime is two drops per gallon. However, SeaChem says it can safely be used at 5 x the "recommended" dose. So you would need to dose _36_ drops every 24 hours in a three gallon.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Asbofish said:


> Oh! That could also have been a biofilm, if it's not broken up it can interfere with the gas exchange between water and air.
> If you can turn your filter outflow to break or aggitate the surface tension of the water that might help stop that. Just for example I turned my outlet into the corner to make a wave while the rest of the tank has a mild flow (will add pic).
> View attachment 1022249
> 
> Off the top of my head aside from a product leaching something it ought not to have, this is potentially the other culprit.


Dang it! I counted my chickens too soon! This morning the film was back on top And her back was slightly curved and she was hanging at the top Again like before.

I put the air stone in even though she’s having trouble swimming bc it’s creating too much disturbance in the water. It’s definite helping her look better but I can tell the current is stressing her outs

It’s the smallest stone I could find. It can’t be the decorations bc I’ve had them in the tank before with no problem and I’ve cleaned them in tap water really well. Plus, the water was changes recently. There is no option to change the flow in the filter. I think you guys are right about the film messing with the gas exchange. I’m going to get a larger tank today so I can use the air stone and hopefully she will have better luck with less current in the water with a larger tank. I just think she needs more oxygen in the water. ugh! This is a pain.Let me know if you have any advice. I really don’t have a lot of room so I’m thinking just a 5 gallon tank. Thanks again for your suggestions.


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

Fishnewby said:


> I’m going to get a larger tank today so I can use the air stone and hopefully she will have better luck with less current in the water with a larger tank. I just think she needs more oxygen in the water. ugh! This is a pain.Let me know if you have any advice. I really don’t have a lot of room so I’m thinking just a 5 gallon tank. Thanks again for your suggestions.


I hope this reply isn't too late but if you have a tape measure you can take the measurements of your spare surface with you.
If the a tank you're looking at has a build in filter back like mine you'll want to make sure the outflow direction is adjustable, otherwise you can get a plain tank without a built in filter and buy a small filter with a spray bar you can direct at the nearest wall.
Happy tank hunting.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Asbofish said:


> I hope this reply isn't too late but if you have a tape measure you can take the measurements of your spare surface with you.
> If the a tank you're looking at has a build in filter back like mine you'll want to make sure the outflow direction is adjustable, otherwise you can get a plain tank without a built in filter and buy a small filter with a spray bar you can direct at the nearest wall.
> Happy tank hunting.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

I didn’t but a tank. I looked but I’m not sure what I want. I bought a bubbler, a smaller air stone and a bubble bar to have some options.
I definitely need a bigger tank because it’s still so much current for her. I’ve never had a tank without a built in Cartridge filter. Maybe I should just get an empty tank like you suggested, a sponge filter maybe? I’m new to this so I’ll need to do some more research. Any suggestions?
Ps. You’re right, a tape measure definitely would have come in handy.lol


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## AndreaPond (May 2, 2020)

Why not bend the tubing and wrap a twist-tie around it to slow the air and reduce the pressure of the output? That's what I've done with my air stone in my ten gallon.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

AndreaPond said:


> Why not bend the tubing and wrap a twist-tie around it to slow the air and reduce the pressure of the output? That's what I've done with my air stone in my ten gallon.


I’ll try that thanks!


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## Asbofish (Sep 25, 2020)

A sponge filter would be fine you could snip a bit of sponge out the compartment and stuff some of the material from the cartridge filter in to transfer some of your good bacteria, also if the spnge filter doesn't have a flow dial you can slow it down to a more betta friendly speed by stuffing it with extra filter media anyway. A Hidom 4w - AP600L should work fine as it has an adjustable flow.

If as you say you were thinking of upgrading eventually anyway you could just do it sooner. It's entirely up to you and what you can do in budget.
I can't give advice on airstones, bubblers, or DIYing them as I've never had to use one.


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Fishnewby said:


> I’ll try that thanks!


That worked awesome!! Thank you so much! Do you ever find that it weakens over time from the pressure? Do you have to adjust your tie from time to time?


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

I may have to try that with my air stone !


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## AndreaPond (May 2, 2020)

I'm regularly readjusting the twist-tie because it loosens sometimes or the flow is sometimes too weak or too strong. But the pump has worked perfectly since I started doing it in March of this year!


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> I may have to try that with my air stone !


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Yeah you definitely should. She seems to be settled and happy now. The volcano only puts out about 1 bubble every 3 seconds or so with the way I have the twist tie but it gives me the oxygen to the surface I was looking for and she’s not bothered at all. The things we do to keep our fish happy. Lol!


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## Antares78 (Feb 29, 2020)

Here's a few other options to consider...

Make sure the air pump is not too "large" for the tank you are using. I have a "10 gallon" air pump split between two sponge filters in 5.5 gallon tanks, and the air is more than enough.

There are air valves that serve the same purpose as kinking the tubing. But, both methods put back-pressure on your air pump that could possibly shorten it's life. A "bleeder valve" might be a better option. A Google search will provide you with information.

If the air flow is not too great, you can reduce turbulence for your fish by raising the air stone off of the bottom of the tank and closer to the surface. This will still give you the needed surface agitation.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Just to be safe, please fill out the form. We may spot something else you haven't considered that my be causing her problems. Thank you.








*****PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Fill out this form so...


Many thanks to BF/TFK Member Mike for developing this questionnaire. It is the same form with a few additions. Please copy and paste into a new message and complete this form when seeking help for your Betta. This information and a clear photo posted directly into the thread will help us give...




www.bettafish.com


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Just to be safe, please fill out the form.


How are things going?


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## Fishnewby (Aug 10, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> How are things going?


Perfect!


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