# hole in head disease?? pls help...



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi guys.. again. I feel like all I ever do on this forum is post in this section.  My betta seems like he's just getting worse. This post is fairly long so please stick with me... 

The last time I posted it was about his tail. People suggested he was biting his tail and I never saw him bite his tail until a few days ago. Now its so bad that there are pieces of his tail all over his tank. I've cleaned it twice in 4 days and there are more pieces now. I had him for months and it had never been this bad until a few weeks ago. Now his tail is absolutely horrible and I've tried everything I can think of. Initially he was in a 10 gallon with a lot of open space so I moved him back to his 5 gallon I originally had him in. There's a lot less open space and I sit with him and try and play for a long time during the day but nothing seems to stop his tail biting. And sadly that just seems to be part of the problem...

If anyone knows my posts, you would have seen my fish changing color. He has gone half-white with his back half still being blue. I never figured out what this was from but today his mood has severely changed. He swims frantically around the tank and then goes to the bottom and lays there. He'll swim like crazy up to the top to get air and then swim like crazy down to the bottom to lay. I don't get it... he's not sinking and he's not having a hard time swimming... he's just going crazy when he swims around. 

He also hasn't been eating like he usually does and swims away from his food, lets it fall past him, or spits it out. 

Lastly, I noticed some black spots on his head two days ago. They seemed fine until I looked at them just now. They are, in my opinion, definitely holes. When I look at them from above they look more like dots but from the side they look like holes. 

Currently I'm just so upset. I feel like he's always sick or something is always happening to him and I have tried so hard to do right by him. I researched so much before I bought him and I feel like it's just one thing after another. I don't know what to do and this is turning me off from keeping bettas to be honest.  It's just because I do care for him and I want him to be happy and healthy and I just don't feel like hes ever been healthy and it sucks so much... I feel like its all my fault... I have no idea what is wrong with him and I'm really starting to think that he isn't a marble betta. He just seems so unhappy and I don't know what to do for him to make him better. 

Housing 
What size is your tank? 5 gallon
What temperature is your tank? 82.2 degrees F
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? there is a heater but it is currently off because my house is so hot... 
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? two small snails that hitched a ride on some plants

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? new life spectrum
How often do you feed your betta fish? 2/day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 1/week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50-75%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? stress coat+

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters? haven't tested because I just did a water change two days ago

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? turning white, chewed off fins, spots on head
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? sometimes laying on the bottom of the tank, swimming around frantically, tail biting
When did you start noticing the symptoms? tail biting - a few weeks ago, everything else - a few days ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? moved to a smaller tank to try and stop tail biting... didn't work
Does your fish have any history of being ill? long history of changing white... started maybe 1.5-2 months ago
How old is your fish (approximately)? ~7 months old


----------



## jeremywadejunior (Jul 11, 2012)

How long have you had him? Don't worry, a lot of fish tail bite and it's not your fault.
As for the hole in head disease, I'm not so sure. Is he a dragonscale? Mine is and those "holes" appear on him too. (I'm a paranoid fish parent so I thought he had it, too, but I got advise and realized that he is normal). They appear on dragon scale bettas, I'm not sure why.


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

jeremywadejunior said:


> How long have you had him? Don't worry, a lot of fish tail bite and it's not your fault.
> As for the hole in head disease, I'm not so sure. Is he a dragonscale? Mine is and those "holes" appear on him too. (I'm a paranoid fish parent so I thought he had it, too, but I got advise and realized that he is normal). They appear on dragon scale bettas, I'm not sure why.


Someone suggested at one point that he was a dragon scale because he has scales growing over his eyes. I honestly don't know how to tell other than that though... 

I've had him for about 6 or 7 months so I know hes at least that old.

EDIT: I'm worried about the appearance on his head in addition to the tail biting and the change in behavior today. I just feel like something is wrong and all of these symptoms are connected. Maybe I am overreacting?? It just doesn't seem right and I would feel horrible ignoring all the signs...


----------



## jeremywadejunior (Jul 11, 2012)

jCo72 said:


> Someone suggested at one point that he was a dragon scale because he has scales growing over his eyes. I honestly don't know how to tell other than that though...
> 
> I've had him for about 6 or 7 months so I know hes at least that old.


I can't see his body well in the photos, but does his body shine/ look metallic? He does appear to have iridescence growing on his eyes which is common with dragon scales. He is probably partly blind from this, which could be what is causing him to not eat normally... 

I'm convinced that the spots on his head aren't a problem. But you haven't noticed them before?


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

When did the second snail move in?


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

jeremywadejunior said:


> I can't see his body well in the photos, but does his body shine/ look metallic? He does appear to have iridescence growing on his eyes which is common with dragon scales. He is probably partly blind from this, which could be what is causing him to not eat normally...
> 
> I'm convinced that the spots on his head aren't a problem. But you haven't noticed them before?


Here's a link to the better pictures of his body... 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=110341

here is a better picture of his body recently though...









**I did look up pictures of a dragon scale and he looks similar in my opinion but its still hard for me to tell.. he's my first and only betta so the way he looks is normal to me, haha


He has had the problem with his eyes for a while and it never seemed to bother his eating habits. He did have a better appetite for his dinner tonight so that was good. 

His spots started showing up not too long ago. I did notice them before (as seen in the picture above) but they didn't really look like holes until a few days ago. I've been spending a lot of time by his tank lately because of his tail biting so I've been watching him fairly closely...


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

Well anyway, maybe it's vitiligo? I know that other animals like humans can develop vitiligo. You seem to value him more than the money you're spending. I suggest you should find a veternarian specializing in fish diseases or a veterinary school to diagnose and see what's really happnening. Pet store people won't know anything if you ask because they're not a pathologist.


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> When did the second snail move in?


I bought live plants about a month and a half ago and put them in a quarantine tank for almost two weeks. There didn't seem to be anything that came with them but I was wrong. Here's a timeline to make it easier...

8/2/12: bought live plants (put in quarantine in a different tank than my betta)
8/5/12: my betta began to change colors
8/20/12: moved my betta into new 10 gallon tank with live plants from his 5 gallon tank
9/11/12: noticed 2 small snails


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

jCo72 said:


> I bought live plants about a month and a half ago and put them in a quarantine tank for almost two weeks. There didn't seem to be anything that came with them but I was wrong. Here's a timeline to make it easier...
> 
> 8/2/12: bought live plants (put in quarantine in a different tank than my betta)
> 8/5/12: my betta began to change colors
> ...


I just asked because snails can bring in dangerous parasites/protozoans.


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> Well anyway, maybe it's vitiligo? I know that other animals like humans can develop vitiligo. You seem to value him more than the money you're spending. I suggest you should find a veternarian specializing in fish diseases or a veterinary school to diagnose and see what's really happnening. Pet store people won't know anything if you ask because they're not a pathologist.


I would like to take him in to a place if I could but we don't have a vet school in my town and I don't know of any vets specializing in fish diseases. I'll have to google it tomorrow to double check. I never thought of vitiligo because I didn't even think that fish could get it... some people have told me that his color change looks like its because something is wrong and others say he's just a marble but it doesn't look normal to me. I'm guessing you also don't think its normal?


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> I just asked because snails can bring in dangerous parasites/protozoans.


Yea, I get it. I wouldn't have put him in the tank if I had seen any snails. I had bought a live plant from the same LPS once before (it had a snail hitch hiker but it died... I think I accidentally poured water on it during a WC because I didn't see it and my betta was out of the tank...) and they *swore* that none of their plants came with snails. When I went back in to purchase my most recent plants I mentioned that and they wanted to sell me an assassin snail. I shouldn't have bought the new plants but I didn't think twice about that comment until after I saw the new snails. They obviously know their plants come with snails... how frustrating.


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

Sometimes life can bring unusual things. It look like he's been having it for awhile and it could be a rare case of vitiligo. Vitiligo, from what I know does not harm anyone/any animal who has it.

I'm not really an expert on bettas, but the temperature and the snails do concern me. About the temperature, wild bettas live a range of 70-90 degrees in their nature habitat and are immune to different temperature levels. Maybe a little over 80 degrees could be bothering your betta since he, unlike wilds, had never gone through such a high temperature. I know you had him for many months now so I could be wrong. Just to let you know that higher temperatures do lower oxygen levels in water.


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> Sometimes life can bring unusual things. It look like he's been having it for awhile and it could be a rare case of vitiligo. Vitiligo, from what I know does not harm anyone/any animal who has it.
> 
> I'm not really an expert on bettas, but the temperature and the snails do concern me. About the temperature, wild bettas live a range of 70-90 degrees in their nature habitat and are immune to different temperature levels. Maybe a little over 80 degrees could be bothering your betta since he, unlike wilds, had never gone through such a high temperature. I know you had him for many months now so I could be wrong. Just to let you know that higher temperatures do lower oxygen levels in water.


Oh, thats interesting. I was actually worried his temperature was too warm because he is used to 80 degree temperature. Lately my house has been a bit warmer (the highs in my town are still 100...) so his tank has also been a bit warmer. I didn't think 2 degrees would actually make a difference? I did try and cool down his tank by putting a fan near it and the temperature has come down a little bit and he does seem calmer. I felt like I was making it up though... I guess I'll have to watch him tomorrow before I'll be able to tell for sure I guess.

Why are fish so tricky?! I feel like everything is wrong all the time and its so hard to read for me :-(


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

I'm just glad that there are people like you who love and care much about their bettas. They're like people and other animals with personalities and needs. ^^

About the holes, I am not familiar with it. But I feel like it came from the snails. I would probably treat the tank with Rid Ich, just incase there's been protozoans leeching around your tank (and it's good to have a bottle of those). But I'm not sure how it'll affect snails, so if you love them too then you should separate them from the tank. 
If you want, you could try lowering the temperature to 74-78 degrees if your heater is adjustable. I had halfmoons before and they did well at 75 degrees. 

Give us an update on how he does. And best wishes for your betta. =)


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

Okay, nevermind about what I wrote above. I have read something from bettatalk.com that seems similar to your betta. 


*







*
*DISEASE: BACTERIAL INFECTION* 
red body sores typical of advanced bacterial infections

u*GENERAL INFO: *If the betta‘s water becomes fouled with uneaten food and fish waste, if it is not well filtered or if the jars are not kept sparkling clean, bacterial bloom will promptly occur and infect your fish. Sometimes you keep the water clean and the fish still gets a bacterial infection!! >8[. Why? because bacteria is resident in your tap water, in the air, on your hands etc... Usually healthy bettas have their immune system to protect them against these attacks. But bettas with a deficient immune system (when a betta is stressed, because it was scared, or moved or shipped, its immune system will become deficient) will catch whatever is lurking in the water, including the bacteria. They will have a “bacterial infection”. VERY CONTAGIOUS!!

u*SYMPTOMS: *Betta may have clamped fins, lay at bottom or at surface, not eat, lose its color, turn gray, barely swim around. In more advanced cases, its body may start developing red patches, open sores and all kinds of nasty looking stuff.* (Even holes in its head!! YIKES!!)* Different bacteria affect fish differently. Some will attack the internal organs while others prefer to munch on the skin.

u*TREATMENT: *Do a full water change for jars or a 70% water change for tanks. (To get rid of some of the bacteria present). Clean filter, change filtering system, remove any uneaten food rotting, or any dead fish!!! Isolate any bettas with symptoms if in a community tank.
You should also treat the whole tank. There is a wide variety of antibiotics available for fish. REMEMBER: Remove carbon from your filters before you add the meds!! The carbon would otherwise absorb all the medication and you would be flushing your money down the tube. Oh, and did I mention money?? Yes, brace yourself, cause your little fishies are gonna cost you a bundle, fish antibiotics can get pretty darn expensive - just as people's antibiotics are, as you well know!!
If the sick bettas are small fries, I truly recommend using Tetracycline or Ampicillin (included in our Betta First Aid Kit) combined with Fungus Eliminator (included in our Betta First Aid Kit), or whatever you find at your store (look for “broad spectrum” antibiotics, though a good one is Kanamycin if you can find some). Follow manufacturer’s instructions and don’t stop the treatment until your bettas are well again. If betta is jarred, then as usual, figure out how much water your jar contains and divide the quantity of medication accordingly. Capsules are easier then tablets, because one can open a capsule and just sprinkle a tiny itsy bit of powder in jar. Tables, you will have to first crush, then divide. Well, have a blast!!!


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> Okay, nevermind about what I wrote above. I have read something from bettatalk.com that seems similar to your betta.
> 
> 
> *
> ...



oh, gosh. This does look similar. He started losing his color a month and a half ago but the other signs only started appearing yesterday. I'm not familiar with treatment timelines for fish but should I still treat him with this anyway? I don't want to make his life worse by trying treatment. (I'm just scared that I'll add in the wrong medication and it'll speed up him dying...)

EDIT: Also, treating the whole tank with antibiotics - should I worry about the live plants?
and he isn't a small fry so should I still use tetracycline/ampicillin and fungus eliminator?


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm about to go to my LPS to buy API erythromycin anti-bacterial medicine and API fungus cure. I know the brand is good but these won't hurt my betta, correct? (I know some '"-fix" ones can cause problems...?) And I can treat my whole tank, even if I have live plants?


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

You should treat him because it's very difficult to deal later on knowing that you've done nothing while he was suffering. And it's still good to purchase medications anyway if you plan on getting more fish someday. With the right amount of medications, it won't bother your betta even if he's not sick. It's like drinking cough syrup and nothing happens if you're not ill. 

API Erythromycin and Fungus Cure shouldn't kill your plants, but will eliminate your tank cycle. 

I hope he gets well soon! If he does then you should treat him some real food like frozen blood worms or brine shrimp! (He deserves it!)


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> You should treat him because it's very difficult to deal later on knowing that you've done nothing while he was suffering. And it's still good to purchase medications anyway if you plan on getting more fish someday. With the right amount of medications, it won't bother your betta even if he's not sick. It's like drinking cough syrup and nothing happens if you're not ill.
> 
> API Erythromycin and Fungus Cure shouldn't kill your plants, but will eliminate your tank cycle.
> 
> I hope he gets well soon! If he does then you should treat him some real food like frozen blood worms or brine shrimp! (He deserves it!)



That's the conclusion I came to earlier today and I was hoping I was right. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU SO SO SO SO MUCH for all your help!!! I seriously can't say it enough! I'm not sure if its just me being hopeful but some of his blue looks like its coming back already... just little tiny spots but its so exciting!! I really hope this works.

Seriously, thank you so much again!


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

Yea, no problem. He looks like a strong fella. I'm sure he'll get better in your loving care. :thumbsup:


----------



## jeremywadejunior (Jul 11, 2012)

Best wishes!! I think you'll start to see an improvement with the medication. Are you using aquarium salt, too? I currently have my little guy in a hospital 1 gal tank/vase with just treated aq salt water and his heater; he has a purple spot on him that looks like a bruise and I want it to heal up before I put him back in his normal tank just to avoid any chance of infection. I think it would help to do that for your guy, too. So that you can give him 100% fresh water every day.


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

Mahachai said:


> Yea, no problem. He looks like a strong fella. I'm sure he'll get better in your loving care. :thumbsup:


Thank you :-D


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

jeremywadejunior said:


> Best wishes!! I think you'll start to see an improvement with the medication. Are you using aquarium salt, too? I currently have my little guy in a hospital 1 gal tank/vase with just treated aq salt water and his heater; he has a purple spot on him that looks like a bruise and I want it to heal up before I put him back in his normal tank just to avoid any chance of infection. I think it would help to do that for your guy, too. So that you can give him 100% fresh water every day.


thanks! I hope I'll start to see a good improvement soon. I'm not using aq salt. I did treat him for 10 days with it a few weeks ago and it did nothing for him. He seemed to like it the first day but other than that there were no changes. I hope your little guy gets better soon though!


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

The turning white looks like he is marbling and the tiny pin holes in the head are perfectly normal. A lot of my bettas have them and that's how they came from sellers. I think it is more common with dragon scales like someone mentioned on the first page. 

Sometimes if they go off their food it could be internal parasites. I think you should test your water even if you did a water change only a couple of days ago. The lethargy and frantic swimming makes me wonder if something in the water isn't irritating him.


----------



## Mahachai (Sep 15, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> The turning white looks like he is marbling and the tiny pin holes in the head are perfectly normal. A lot of my bettas have them and that's how they came from sellers. I think it is more common with dragon scales like someone mentioned on the first page.
> 
> Sometimes if they go off their food it could be internal parasites. I think you should test your water even if you did a water change only a couple of days ago. The lethargy and frantic swimming makes me wonder if something in the water isn't irritating him.


I didn't catch what the other guy wrote yesterday but that's freakin cool about marbling.


----------



## jeremywadejunior (Jul 11, 2012)

jCo72 said:


> thanks! I hope I'll start to see a good improvement soon. I'm not using aq salt. I did treat him for 10 days with it a few weeks ago and it did nothing for him. He seemed to like it the first day but other than that there were no changes. I hope your little guy gets better soon though!


The aquarium salt with the medication might show different results than just the aq salt.. I'm not sure. If it were me, I would go ahead and use a dose (or less) of aq salt in addition just so I know I've done all I can do. But let us know how he progresses!


----------



## jeremywadejunior (Jul 11, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> The turning white looks like he is marbling and the tiny pin holes in the head are perfectly normal. A lot of my bettas have them and that's how they came from sellers. I think it is more common with dragon scales like someone mentioned on the first page.
> 
> Sometimes if they go off their food it could be internal parasites. I think you should test your water even if you did a water change only a couple of days ago. The lethargy and frantic swimming makes me wonder if something in the water isn't irritating him.


I don't know much about marbling so I can't comment on that.. the white does look odd to me though.. don't marble bettas usually go from white to color and not the reverse? 

I wouldn't rule the internal parasites out if he's acting odd... Anyone know if it would hurt to use epsom salt and an internal parasite medication in the water as well as the antibacterial meds?


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> The turning white looks like he is marbling and the tiny pin holes in the head are perfectly normal. A lot of my bettas have them and that's how they came from sellers. I think it is more common with dragon scales like someone mentioned on the first page.
> 
> Sometimes if they go off their food it could be internal parasites. I think you should test your water even if you did a water change only a couple of days ago. The lethargy and frantic swimming makes me wonder if something in the water isn't irritating him.


Someone at one point suggested marbling but I talked to Sakura and she didn't think that was the case. She said it looked more like disease which I agree with. I wish it was just marbling...

He has no signs of internal parasites... his poop looks normal and he just decided to stop eating as much. Although since I put the medication in, his appetite has picked up (although I can't say its from the medication - he may have just been extra hungry since he hasn't eaten much lately). I changed 50% of the water today before I added the medicine so hopefully everything is good to go in his water.


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

jeremywadejunior said:


> The aquarium salt with the medication might show different results than just the aq salt.. I'm not sure. If it were me, I would go ahead and use a dose (or less) of aq salt in addition just so I know I've done all I can do. But let us know how he progresses!


That's a good point. I believe using aq salt on live plants is a bad idea though so I think I'll hold off for now. If he doesn't show signs of improvement I'll reconsider the aq salt but right now he looks like hes doing better.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Have you got better photos of him than the two on the first page? I've had some pretty funky marbles. One of mine went from cellophane to almost completely black, and is now going cellophane again. If you weren't familiar with marbling it looks like she has a disease because her current colouring is really odd.


----------



## jeremywadejunior (Jul 11, 2012)

jCo72 said:


> That's a good point. I believe using aq salt on live plants is a bad idea though so I think I'll hold off for now. If he doesn't show signs of improvement I'll reconsider the aq salt but right now he looks like hes doing better.


Awesome! If you do feel you should use aq salt, though, and you don't want to harm your plants, you can move your fish into a hospital tank and keep your planted tank running until it's time for Fishy to return to his normal habitat


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Have you got better photos of him than the two on the first page? I've had some pretty funky marbles. One of mine went from cellophane to almost completely black, and is now going cellophane again. If you weren't familiar with marbling it looks like she has a disease because her current colouring is really odd.


Yea, I have a few more pictures of him...

I was told fish usually change color like that but it was the fact that it was white that didn't seem right. He has been acting better today. I haven't seen him biting his tail and hes flaring a lot more than he has been recently. He also hasn't been sitting on the bottom nearly as much. 

Have you posted pictures of you betta? If not, could I see them? I honestly haven't seen many marble bettas and I would feel much better if they did look similar


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Hmm. I'm still not convinced that just isn't normal marbling. Marbles can do weird things. Do the scales look any different from the surrounding scales, or do they appear to look normal? 

Here's a photo of my black/cellophane female from when I first got her to now:


----------



## jCo72 (Feb 21, 2012)

oh wow! shes gorgeous! That is definitely a big change. Although I would have felt better if he turned black and not white, haha.

All the scales look normal. Do marbles usually change their whole color or does it vary by fish? Because he turned half white and just kinda stayed that way.


----------

