# Sticky  IMPORANT: Watch For These Disease Signs



## Sakura8

I wish to spread awareness about a disease that has struck several times in the recent months. It moves very, very, very fast, often killing within 12-24 hours. Nothing is known about this disease except that it is a bacterial disease that causes rapid and acute tissue necropsy and that it seems to strike blue bettas in particular. Several people are working on identifying this disease, including veterinary student DarkMoon17, but *WE NEED YOUR HELP*. 

If you have a betta who develops the following symptoms or dies, please *DO NOT DISPOSE OF THE BODY*. It is very important that we have a body to send in for a necropsy. Several people have volunteered to take the bodies to local universities or veterinary clinics near them. All we need you to do is save the body and contact DarkMoon17 or me immediately.

The symptoms of this disease are:

* graphite gray or near black tissue necropsy that spreads from the bottom of the fins upward to the body within hours
* sudden loss of mobility as the swim bladder is affected
* death or conditions so severe that they require euthanasia within 12-24 hours, occasionally as long as 36 hours

The betta will look something like this:








There have been speculations about what it is, including suggestions that it is an acute strain of columnaris, but *NOTHING IS KNOWN FOR CERTAIN. PLEASE DO NOT* post speculations about what this disease may be unless you have been able to identify the disease through lab work. Such speculations only cause aggressive debate.

Any and all cooperation is much appreciated as we work to identify this disease so we can figure out a way to combat it. Thank you very much.


----------



## Sakura8

Thanks, purple. Wonder if formaldehyde works. Most veterinary clinics or universities should have that, right?

Pitluvs, what if someone had to put a betta named Mustard in the fridge? :shock: Too weird. "Where's the mustard?" "Next to Mustard." "Whaaat?"


----------



## Sakura8

*Preserving the Body For Testing*

Here is what DarkMoon said about preserving the body.

"We would need the fish to be preserved in a formalin solution. You can get a container fornbiopsis from your local vet. The vet may suggest a place to send it or if the person is close to a vet school or college campus they can see if there is anyone there willing to do a me necropsy on it. If not, my father (veterinary pathologist-studies diseases & makes medications) said that he would do a necropsy if possible."


----------



## LittleBettas

Im not sure if this is the same thing.... but I just wanted to post it up just in case there is similarities since during the time it was going on no one stepped up to assist me

Avenger started showing symptoms of what I at first though was inflamed gills with slight finrot
it quickly became obvious it was more than that, the tips of his fins were a light gray, his gills continue to have problems as I had him, he would go through bouts where he just stopped moving and would just sit there, either floating at the top or bottom for days, often he would refuse to eat shortly before, during, and after these bursts. His fins would occasionally out break out worse and he would loose huge chunks or have random bleeding from them, I kept him on high doses of AQ salt to prevent any infections since as I had him longer his fins got worse and worse along with the fact one of his gills had started to curl out, I also put him on Jungle parasite treatment.... while he did not seem to get better, he did not get any worse, I did eventually loose him, along with a few other bettas from a freak accident that caused a power outage and as a result, issues with the heaters in those tanks


----------



## LittleBettas

Sakura8 said:


> It would be interesting to know where these bettas were bred too. Obviously, they couldn't have all come from the same breeder because the cases have occurred around the world and at different times. Here in the States, where you are in Canada, even in India. There's a possibility it's like each blue betta bred anywhere in the world has a 1 in something chance of carrying this genetic defect. Like there's a 1 in something chance a child could be born with this disease or something like that.


You actually bring up an interesting point... Avenger was the last betta I bought from my walmarts old breeder... they wouldnt tell me the name of the breeder, but I bought 4-5 bettas right before Avenger from that breeder.... most were white with blue and one was purple... all died within 1-2 days and all had the same gill problem as Avenger and what I thought was finrot


----------



## SpinOut

Just came home from school today, and found Thor, laying on the bottom of his bowl, dead. I plan to upload pictures and what happened here: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=955870#post955870

On another note, what should I do with him?


----------



## SpinOut

Sena Hansler said:


> That is weird! Black UNDER the gills? Like, fuzzy, slimy...? That's something different, but worth posting to us anyways with pics and descriptions.
> 
> Personally if another one of my bettas get this disease, like Maine and Riddle, I'll STILL be distraught.


Here's a clear picture I took. I'm really not sure what was there, but I don't think it's a good thing!


----------



## Sena Hansler

Olympia said:


> Is this unknown disease called maine, or is maine completely different?
> Also, has this new disease been recorded in Ontario? Getting a new fishie soon, don't wanna go through this Dx
> @SpinOut - isn't that just his beard? just a speculation..


Maine was my blue betta, swept by the disease overnight. I tracked everything during the disease, including how ich moved far from the disease's reach. The disease has not been competely determined as to what it is, although "necrosis" or something HAS been mentioned, but there is no strong liable proof to say it is, or is not. It is basically a bacteria, eating live tissue - leaving you with a half dead fish from anywhere between 2-24 hours (which is the usual) or anywhere up to 72 hours. Most of the bettas who got it, were healthy beforehand. Riddle wasn't - he was the second betta who got it, that I owned. Now my last blue Shadow is on high watch ><


----------



## Sena Hansler

Usually, a black "lace" as it is called, you can easily tell from a "greyed" or "rotted" edge. Often, a rotted edge will look rougher, duller, and thinner than a simple laced edge. I have had a betta who had the pretty black lacing...

And okay, so he was about 10-11 months we'll say. I've noticed it is between 10 and 15 months bettas have been attacked with this disease... It's just a hunch, not a fact  Luckily, I got Kanaplex in the mail today!!! Now if Shadow ever gets it... I'll be able to fight fire with fire.


----------



## LittleBettas

I have REALLY bad news....

I took a trip to a local petsmart (and by that I mean an hour away)
and they had some GORGEOUS bogs and girls...
but...
while looking through them I noticed EVER SINGLE BLUE MALE HAD THIS.... THING
I wish I had been able to take pictures (no phone/camera right now), some of the reds and a GORGEOUS marble VT had it, it was DISGUSTING how bad some of them were... especially since this petsmart has always taken AMAZING care of their bettas campared to some places...(slight finrot problems occassionally) \
I tried to get one of the employees to tell me the supplier (surprisingly she was VERY well knowledged on bettas, I heard her talking to a guy who was interested in one) and she said she couldnt, but she called the manager over, in the end, the manager refused to tell me the name of the breeder, but she did say they were no longer purchasing from them (explains why they had a new shipment of GORGEOUS bettas... including amazing looking DTHM) she said they had been trying to treat some of them, but nothing seems to have been working, I gave her the name of the site and told her some people had luck with Kanaplex... she said she would give it a try... but I don't think the ones already affected will make it (I think she is going to start treating the others from that shipment)


----------



## toddscire

*I do not know if this will help but we have seen this before.*

i am new to this site but been in fish and retail and now wholesale. Some of the supply that petsmart and petco and ect get fish from is there own wholesale. They have a buyer get there fish. I would think it if through dolphin international or one of the big trans shippers. The fish are out of aisa and when we saw this is was a shipper from _Taiwan and he was well known. The fish I saw were all dead in a few weeks and the rummer was it was hormones in the food for blue and red colors. The red fish did not seem to die but lost a lot of color over the months and the blues seemed to die rather fast. Every breeder in Thailand stopped for a few days and bangkok was full of bettas cheap. But this fish in the picture looks like what we saw a year ago in BKK and the rumor in the breeder circle was hormones were found to be the issue and as the liver shut down the fish died meds did not work. My friend is looking at the same picture and he said yup. Hormone fish. Lets face it color sells and if you pay 3.00 usd at a store then the whole sale paid .30cent or so and the broker charged .20 cent and the breeder got his .15 cent. So if he is producing a solid blue that looks to good to be true ...it is. Buy froma good breeder and know what you have. Any good breeder will back his or her fish ASAP. There name is at stake. If you pay 10.00 for that blue fish and see 300 more baby and adults just like it in the same place then you know what you are getting. 2.00 fish are not good deals and will give you issues. But if I had to bet my 40,000 betta's on what your fish has I would say hormones and the fungus and bacteria all at the same time. If you can get the later under control fast enough the hormones might get out of the system and the kidney might get going again. But it is best to cull any fish that shows this and do a good clean job on your tank. Keep all fish apart for a few days and look for issues. If you do not see anything in a few days you are OK most of the time. Betta are some tough little fish. But some of the aisa stuff is so mass produced that the left over china food might be used. This food is spotty at best and even Thai breeders try to never use it. Nice package and food looks pretty but it is death in a bag. Get your fish and your food from a good breeder. Also both petsmart and petco have a vet on staff? If you see the same issue with the fish in the store as you have, bring them your fish and go to a local breeder and get a new safe betta. Let the vet do their job and keep the fish healthy. But I am just giving what I know.....Use my info as good reading only......_


----------



## gerrarr

*I think our fish had this...*

I'm not really sure, but I think our male betta got this disease. I'm going to post the long story, because I'm not sure what is relevant information and what is not. We have a 30-ish gallon tank with a filter and an aerator. We have 10 goldfish, two small corydoras, two plecos, and now one betta fish :-(. We also had one silver/grey fish. It had long flowing fins and about three dark stripes on her body. (I honestly have no idea what breed it was, we got it from my step mom because she was sick of her fish tank because no one looked at the fish and she was just going to put it, the corydoras, and a pleco in an outside pond, so we rescued them and started our aquarium.) She had mentioned that it was very old, at least 6 or 7 years, and probably wouldn't live long. So last week, it started moving kind of strangely, like it's pectoral fins weren't working right. We put her in a separate bowl and within about a day, her swim bladder obviously wasn't working because she couldn't swim upright or come off the bottom of the bowl. She died about 12 hours later. We weren't really that surprised because, like I said, she was old, and none of the other fish showed any symptoms.
Then about 3 days ago, our female betta started hiding behind the filter. This was very out of character, because she normally hangs out at the top of the tank and likes to look at people. Every time we would go to clean the tank she would swim right into the net or if we had to move one of the decorations, she would rub against our hands. (I know, she's a little strange on a good day, but it was really weird that she was hiding when normally she was so friendly.) None of the other fish seemed to be bothering her, and we hadn't had any problems with aggression from any of them. They had all lived together just fine for about 3 months now. We checked the pH and everything seemed normal, so we just decided to watch and see. Well, the next day, the male betta started hiding too, so we checked the pH again and it was a little acidic so we got a buffer tablet yesterday. Within a couple hours, the female betta seemed to be doing better, but the male was still acting weird. This morning we found him hiding in between one of the decorations and the aerator. My fiance used the net to move the decoration a little and make sure he was still alive (he wasn't moving) and he was, but he was laying on his side and only moved a little. The female betta saw him, went to the bottom and just laid next to him for about two minutes. It was really sad. I had never really considered the idea that fish have that complex of emotions. We took him out and put him in a separate bowl. We put in some Lifeguard All-In-One. An hour later, he was moving more but still on his side. I went to get some aquarium salt to try that, but by the time I got back, he was already gone. The female betta seems to be acting pretty much normal now--well, her version of normal--but she was still looking out the tank like she was looking for him . 

Other info:
We live in Iowa, so I'm not sure what the likelihood is that our bettas came from any of the same breeders as the others that have been affected. The male came from a local pet store (I doubt if they breed them there) and the female came from Wal-Mart. We've had them for at least 3 months with no problems until now and have not switched foods or anything. Also, the female doesn't show any signs of a bacteria or decomposition on her fins or body. The male didn't either until this morning, it looked like he had a few bloody streaks on his body (kind of hard to tell, he was a darkish red). His gills definitely seemed swollen before I went to the store. Now his body seems to have some white spots on it that weren't there before. 

So I guess my questions are:
Has anyone heard anymore about this? If so, what have you found out?
Can it be transmitted between species?
How likely is it that the female is going to get sick now too?
What should I do with the male's body?

I started cleaning out the entire tank. I'm planning on sterilizing all the decorations and gravel and washing the tank itself with diluted bleach. Is there anything else I can do to make sure the other fish are safe? Should I treat them with some of the All-In-One or a different medicine as a precaution or put some aquarium salt in with the new water that I fill the tank with when it's clean?

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## copperarabian

This disease makes me sad,it was so horrible not being able to do anything because of the speed which it moves. After getting my blue veiltail it reminded me of when my beautiful royal blue OHM sapphire died of it. Really hope it doesn't happen again


----------



## thebroadenthusiast

My beautiful Male Chocolate Copper HM from Petco must have died from this. He had mild fin rot and it cleared up in about a day or two. Then all of a sudden, his fins went from brown to black, then he turned very pale, and his fins shredded to nothing within seconds. One hour he had all his fins, then the next our he had NO fins. He then just floated at the top with mild gill movement. I was about to euthanize but then he just died . This all happened within 2-3 days. Sorry I can't help, he went down the porcelain purgatory.


----------



## Sena Hansler

What were the approximate ages of everyone's bettas? I'm wondering if the age could also be playing a factor. And now, we get to see if it can reoccur - much like cancer in humans where it can remain dormant, or cause problems, it can also reoccur.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Cal sadly passed this early evening. His whole body had turned grey and he had completely lost his tail fins.
I will always remember him because he taught me to be so much more observant with all my fishies behavior and environment.


----------



## CarmanDirda

I wish I would've known this last week. It happened to my male blue veiltail. He turned brown in minutes in what I thought was a reaction to his medicine and died the next morning.


----------



## StarSpun

Wow, this disease is terrifying....
I'm so sorry for those of you who had to go through this, as well as the poor bettas....

:-(

Question....and I'm sorry if it's been asked/answered before....but....did anyone try taking a knife/scissors to the affected fins? I know some people are saying that it may be an internal infection that goes on to affect the exterior. But perhaps it would aid in the healing or chances of survival, just a thought....

I've had a weird disease sweep my male bettas. I have 18 of them, and I've had to do over 10 'fin trims'....three times on a couple of them. Out of every time, I've had success. One fish who I received very sickly (and never colored out quite right) had a problem growing his fins back, and died after a few months of being a sickly scared fish hiding all the the time. But all the others flourished, except the first guy who got the disease. He happened to be our favorite, and that is why we took no chances with the others who got the same/similar problem.

Whenever I see anything funky on the fins, I take sharp scissors to it, and I don't hesitate. If there is a lot, I will put them out on a cutting board with wet paper towels and give them quite the trim! Not for the faint of heart, but thought I would mention it for this disease in particular. Don't forget the salt bath after the op though;-)

I hope we can figure out what this affliction is. I'd be devastated if I lost my blue guy, Fishwish. Just devastated!

Will keep a watch on this post, for sure....


----------



## Sakura8

Very good, clear instructions, StarSpun.  However, I do want to stress that this is a last-ditch effort, not something that anyone should try when their betta gets a little tear. Before anyone attempts this, I'd advise PMing DarkMoon or StarSpun to make sure this is the right course of action.


----------



## wystearya

OMGemily said:


> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=95290
> 
> there is a link to my thread with a picture of my first fish after he died... his fins changed really weird colors... and they were always clamped up in the last hours...



Whoa.. I think this is what killed a few fish I got, also from Petsmart, about 2 years ago. They were sick when I bought them, not eating. I had *never* had a fish not eat. They died within 24-36 hours of bringing them home.

They were both blue crowntails, one was a bit more turquoise, but blue overall. Your picture actually looks like my last one when he passed. I took them back to petsmart for refunds, and at the time I sworn to never shop there again.  They told me they had a "bad batch" of fish. I assume that most or all of those poor Betta fish in the store at the time were dying of this disease.

I cannot be 100% sure it was the same thing, but I do know mine died very quickly and the fins did look like that when they passed. :-(

I do wish you all luck with finding out this disease. It is awful and terribly quick! If I have the misfortune of getting another fish with this, I will let you know. Thankfully my new copper halfmoon boy seems very healthy!


----------



## Queenfaerie

Hi! I really didn't have time to read all the pages of this thread. I'm pretty sure my fish has this. When we first got him a month ago, his lower fin turned gray and fell off. He hadn't eaten in a week and just laid on the bottom of the bowl. After the piece fell off, he bounced back and was normal again. This was until about 3 days ago. He is now in a 10 gallon tank, he was hiding behind the filter and wasn't really active. Yesterday I noticed back tail had a grey spot, and he isn't swimming well. Today is even worse. Part of it has fallen off and there is a skeleton of the fin with little chunks on it. I uploaded a video to my photobucket. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c87/queenfaerie/4df050eb.mp4 

Help!


----------



## Sakura8

Hi Queenfaerie and welcome to the forum. It does look like your guy has something at least very similar to this that is killing the tissue on his fins. In your case, it looks like a really vicious strain of fin rot.  Can you get any medications? Start looking for a medication called Seachem Kanaplex - you may have to order it online. If you can't find Kanaplex, get Maracyn II. Until you can get meds, put him in 2 tsps of aquarium salt per gallon. Predissolve the salt in a bit of tank water before you add it. If you have it, use API Stress Coat.

You can go ahead and private message me if you have any more questions. I hope this helps your little guy.


----------



## frazier71

Okay thank you. If it does strike is there any meds if caught at the very start?


----------



## Sakura8

Your best chance would be if you could administer kanamycin asap.. This broad-spectrum antibiotic is most often found in Seachem Kanaplex. Combining Kanaplex with Neoplex may help even more. Unfortunately, these medications are pretty hard to find in stores and most often have to be ordered online. If you can't find Kanaplex, I'd probably recommend either API Furan-2 or a combination of Mardel Maracyn I and II.


----------



## erinandares

Yeah, I was the someone. My pink dragon boy and my purple marble both died of it (as far as I can tell). The thing is, though, the pink guy had that ochre yellow-orange color spread first, then the grey-black. It looked almost like two stripes on him by the time I got the guy to get rid of him. 

Also, there was a yellow guy, rasboras, and guppies who may have died of it, but I can't be sure. The guppies' tails were decomposed and everything, but I can't say with any certainty that was what killed them. I had a total of 14 fish (5 rasboras, 6 guppies, 3 bettas) die within a week and a half at most. And a snail. :c It's been a rough one... 

Sorry, I don't have any pictures. But if it helps anyone at all, the guy at the pet store I went to said he had seen it before, but never seen in so severely or move so quickly. So at least some people know it's out there, you know? :/


----------



## Katy

I can attest it's not just blues that get it. I've had a red female (and 3 blue females) die from it. More common in blues it seems, but my red female was the first affected actually.


----------



## erinandares

I hope people don't just look at a sick fish and automatically assume the worst. :/ I don't like posting in this thread because I feel like I'm perpetuating something. It's like getting chicken pox and the doctor thinks it's smallpox. 

At the same time, though, I didn't think my fish would get something like this, and I didn't even know what was killing them until Phaistos died and then the very last one get sick. I still don't know what killed the rest of them. 

The guppies were only in my tank for a day and a half. On a weird note, I found the last missing guppy buried underneath plants and gravel when I broke my tank down yesterday. It was the most horrible, lumpy gray thing I had ever seen. I didn't recognize it as a fish. :/ I won't describe it (too disgusting >.>) but I'm fairly sure it had at least something to do with the gray necrosis that killed Erasmos and Phaistos, if it wasn't the same thing. Maybe it took advantage of the dead body after the fish had died though? Like I've said, I can't be certain. 

Just... new fish owners, please don't assume the worst about your fish. :c It's sad that we would have to see a disease like this at all, but it seems pretty rare.


----------



## Sakura8

Erin, to address your concerns: this thread is for people to read about the symptoms of this disease and to report any possible cases. 

*This thread is not to scare people away from keeping and loving blue/teal/red bettas.* 

Just to reiterate, anyone who has a betta who has exhibited similar symptoms to this disease is asked to notify me or DarkMoon17, especially if there is a possibility the betta can be submitted for tissue sampling. We would like to find out the exact cause of this disease so we know how best to treat and/or prevent it.


----------



## AltheaGlyndwr

*Rainbow*

Rainbow, my mostly blue, green, and teal betta (although he also had a black face, red in his fins some purple and white at the very tip of his front bottom fins) passed on sometime in the night. Yesterday morning he was fine and chipper. Then when I came home from work he was hiding in his coral reaf hidey hole and only came up for air. I noticed his face was covered in white stuff and his eyes were glassy. His back fin mainly was deteriorating and all his fins had a dark grey/graphitey look to them. It got worse over the nest few hours and he started getting really slow and lethargic as well as just letting the current carry him around. I tried treating him with some fungus clear stuff (that said it was also for fin rot and cloudy eyes and everything else he appeared to have) but that obviously didn't help. I simply thought that he and one of the new African Dwarf Frogs that I just got (who was dead upon my arrival home) got into a fight and the frog beat him up pretty bad. But I researched all over and found nothing at all about it and so finally asked on yahoo answers. Someone posted and suggested this malicious disease/thing might be the culprit. They were right, I came here and looked around and he most definitely had whatever this crap is. It killed him in about 12 hours I'd imagine. I'm horrified. He was the first Betta I've ever had (first fish too but I've had him since November) And I've tried so hard to be good for the little guy. Now... he's gone.

I'd like to donate his body so that we can find out what is killing all these babies. I am very upset and angry and a lot of other things. I really loved that fish :/ Should I call up veterinary clinics in my area and see what they can do? Should I send his poor little eaten body to this Darkmoon person I've been hearing so much about? I'm afraid to get another betta cause I don't want to lose them like this again...


----------



## CreativePotato

Today when I went to PetCo., as I was admiring the bettas as I always do, I found three fish with this mystery disease. Two out of the three were blue, and the third was teal, more green than blue. Any information helps, right? *useless*


----------



## Mo

Yet another victim of the mystery disease. My blue Double tail named show off. Dead in less than 24 hours.


----------



## Bounce

Hello. I'm new to the forum and have a very sick Betta as of this morning. I have been searching the internet for information on what could be wrong and finally found this thread that seems to describe what I have going on. 

I have had my betta since Sept. 2011 (so 8 months now) and he is in a 10 gallon aquarium with a sponge filter and live plants. I do weekly water changes of approximately 30%. I test my water monthly with the API liquid test kit and last month (as always) my readings were: ammonia-0; nitrite-0; and nitrate-5. He has never had a health issue and always had bright color and been very active. He is fed New Life Spectrum Betta Pellets (4 in the am and 3 in the evening).

Last night when I fed him at 8:00 pm, he was fine and this morning when I turned on his light at 11:00 am, this is how he looked. He has a large gray area across his back, on both sides, and into his tail fin. He will barely swim and his eyes are sunken.

















I haven't been able to read this whole thread yet but am going to go back and read it right now. I just wanted to go ahead an post this in case someone might be able to offer some quick advice. Although from what I have read so far, the outlook is not good.


----------



## Bounce

The pictures I posted earlier were taken around 2:00 pm or 2:30 pm this afternoon and by 5:30 he had lost his ability to stay upright and and was lying on his side and having very little gill movement. I just checked on him at 6:15 and he had passed. 

These were taken at 5:30 pm and you can see how much more area was covered by the gray and how much lighter it had become.


----------



## lelei

Oh my goodness.. that is terrible, and it affects only the "blues" I saw a few at Petco, and they had finrot..but I am just now hearing about this..very sad.. I am sorry to all those who lost their friends to this horrible disease


----------



## DarkMoon17

So Leto, my blue dragon HM, just passed away from what I assume is this disease. It presented a bit differently since he was a dragon scale (his fins turned greenish/grey instead of full black/ash colored) but he died less than 20 hours after symptoms first appeared and his body turned grey so pretty sure it's the same thing.

I have him preserved in a formalin biopsy jar and am preparing to have him sent out for a necropsy and hopefully a diagnosis. It will probably cost about $100-150 to have him tested, we'll know a more accuarate price once i've found someone who can do it. I am a college student and cannot work much because I have to shadow veterinarians whenever possible so if anyone wants to donate to this diagnosis please let me know. It would be very much appreciated!


----------



## DarkMoon17

Ichtheology labs typically use 90% alcohol with fish. It will draw out all their color and turn it flesh/sculpy colored but it works.


----------



## DarkMoon17

Alcohol is not the prefered preserve for necropses but it is easy to find. It's just 90% Isopropal slcohol (rubbing alcohol). Walmart sells it. Pharmacies probably do too. 

Formaldehyde/formalin is very easy to get thought. Just walk into your local vet office and ask for a biospy jar. We all have them and if you just explain why you need it, they shouldn't have no problem giving you one. 

To preserve fish while you are searching for a preservative, wrap it loosely in a paper towel or gauze and put it in the refrigerator (not the freezer). If the fish has been dead in the tank for more than 6 hours, it isn't a good subject for testing.


----------



## BlueStar

I read to post 120 and if post #91 is right about hormones, fungus and bacteria are behind it then I would suggest a mix I found elsewhere that lead to me buying Kanaplex which will treat everything=bacteria, fungus and parasites you might want to try on this fast acting killer. In this post it said the hormones would work out of their system if they live long enough. Probably poster #91 hit it right on the nail as to the cause of this since they had seen it in bulk before. Even America is guilty of this when they used hormones in chickens that affected our young girls bodies that ate them long term and with breast cancer on the rise it may even have something to do with that.

The mixture I found was to make a product that is no longer made that was called Paragon 2 by Aquatronics. To make it you need Kanamycin combined with Furan 2 & Metronidazole. The Kanaplex (Kanamycin) & Metronidazole I use are by Seachem. Only problem with the site was it didn't break down exactly how to mix this up but I used the below for 10 days and it didn't kill 2 of my fish I treated with it.

Kanaplex can damage the kidneys if used for extented periods of time so 10 days was all I put them through. 
I may have used Methylene Blue on them before using this which helps improve their oxygen, internal organ damage, etc. but I was not treating for this fast killing disease. I have no ideal if that can be used with this mixture or not, but I didn't combine them.
Furan-2 Powder (Nitrofurazone) can be harmful to you so protect your eyes/hands and don't breath any dust. Wash hands after use.

This is what I mixed up in a pill container to use in 2 gallons of water:
Kanaplex_Level spoon=5 gal...Level spoon-half=2.5 gal so little less than half spoon
Metronidazole_1 measure=100mg...25mg/2gal=1/4 measure
Furan-2 Powder(Nitrofurazone)_1pkg/10g daily...2 gal=1/5pkg..25-50mg Nitrofurazone/2gal=1/4 pkg to get Nitrofurazone amount

Treat: 2 Gal
100% water change...Dose 1
2 days=50 % water change...Dose 2
2 days=50 % water change...Dose 3
2 days=50 % water change...Dose 4
2 days=50 % water change...Dose 5
2 days=75 % water change
Each water change I did not get the water on me since the Furan-2 warns of cancer and I soaped the sink down, should have put it down the toilet.
It will turn the water yellow and have flakes in it that are okay.
The Furan-2 said the water color would clear up using a carbon filter, but that doesn't apply to a hospital tank. From there I just did the normal water changes in it getting the floating pieces out.
Not sure on these medications affect on niftifying bacteria.

Site that suggested this mixture: 
Dose every 2 days with 50% water change before each treat for 10 days.

I don't like using heavy medications either, but if I'm not sure what I'm treating or a combo of problems or something like this fast killer it's worth having it on hand. I'm about to explore the use of epsom salt on one tonight, but if that doesn't get him better of his multiple problems he came up with a week after being put in a 5 gallon cycled tank I will use this as a last hope for him.


----------



## Sakura8

BlueStar, I've read about some of the medications that used to be made by Aquatronics. It might be a potent mix of meds but it seems like little else works for this fast-moving mystery disease. Note to all: I would not recommend such a potent mix for ordinary cases of columnaris, fin rot etc. If you choose to use this mix, use it only for extremely severe cases where the fish will certainly die otherwise.


----------



## Bakergal

*Help! My fish is really sick*

I have a new tank, onc the water levels were correct on Sunday I bought my betta. It is now Tuesday and for the last 6 hours he has been getting sicker. He has stopped moving laboured breathing stopped eating his tail fins are falling apart and he is turning a grey colour from
Tail up his body. I can't get any advice or medicine til
Tomoro and I'm worried he won't make it that long! What is happening to him?!


----------



## Sena Hansler

Sorry it took so long it wouldn't upload. Problem fixed 

This, is Bruce.


----------



## Sena Hansler

Yes it is possible. It is mainly blues BUT other colors can get it. For me it is mainly blues from one particular store.


----------



## Pearl2011

My blue/purple bettas tummy (where his ventral fins are) is turning grayish over the past 2 days. He is still eating and has fin rot right now. Im treating with Melafix and today is the last day. Could this be the mystrious illness? Ive had him for 2 years 7 month 10 days so could age be a contributing factor?
I hope he'll get better!! Scrath that, he WILL get better!!


----------



## Sena Hansler

That... Is from being old. Lol. I noticed grey belly is either internal parasites...stress related... Or age related


----------



## LebronTheBetta

Shouldn't be. It seems like the start of an internal breakdown, (AKA Dropsy) though. :/


----------



## Pearl2011

Since I cant voice all of my though here, I HATE FISH DISEASES!!!!! THEY NEED TO DIE IN A HOLE!!
Glad I got rid of that anger . . .
Anyway Im changing the water tomorrow, should I do a hundred percent?


----------



## Sakura8

Pearl, do a 100% and be very careful dosing with Melafix. Overdosing with that can cause damage to his labyrinth organ. Sparky sends get well wishes.


----------



## Pearl2011

I am very careful not to over dose, I use a pharmacy thing to measure it.
If he needs more after this should I do a half dose? Because his tail is about 5mm away from his body . . .


----------



## Sakura8

If his rot is that bad, I'm not sure Melafix will really help. It's mostly an antiseptic more than a medicine. If you can, you might try API Furan-2 but I'm not sure if you have that readily available in Canada or not. 

If not, continue with the Melafix. As long as you're careful, it won't hurt. Good luck!


----------



## Pearl2011

I wanted to get Maracyn, but it was like 25$ and I dont have that money. I changed the water today, shuld I do a smale change every other day to get rid of the koodies? Ill give him a break for the Melafix for a 2 days and then continue. My neighbor suggested salt, but he is soo old I dont want to hurt Swish. His belly is more so white right now.
And my friend gave me a great link on Columnaris, which explains Maggandras and Squiggles death . . . really interesting pOst.


----------



## Sakura8

You can get Maracyn cheaper if you can find a smaller package. Sounds like all you could find was the 25 dose one or something like that. There's a 5 dose one that should cost much less. But Maracyn isn't a very effective med anymore. 

If you dose the AQ salt right (1 tsp per gallon), it shouldn't harm him any more than the Melafix would.


----------



## Sena Hansler

Columnaris? Yikes! Do you think that is what he has? I hate that bacterial disease. It's a real pain!


----------



## Pearl2011

Well today he has all his color back on one side!!!    The other side is a bit pale, but he look so much better!! He swam up when I walked beside him, instead up having to back a screeching noise on the glass to get him up  And then later I he was swimming and I wasn't there!!!  So happy!! Ill keep an I on him to back sure he doesnt get worse  Im so happy!! And Bubbles seems to like that her boyfreind is back too LOL.


----------



## MistersMom

My bettas face has some gray on it, could it have this?? he is purple/blue.... do i seperate him!? i dont want him to die... :/


----------



## Pearl2011

Swish looks like his scales are sticking out ever so slightly. I hope he gets better. That happened to him once before, and I had no clue what it was and I left it as it was (2 years ago, first betta, you get the picture).
Ill change the wter today, then monday, then we leave for a week.


----------



## Sakura8

MistersMom, is your betta acting normal? Did the gray start suddenly and is it spreading rapidly? If he's acting normal and the gray isn't spreading rapidly, then it is probably natural coloring.


----------



## MistersMom

yeah he's acting perfectly normal, and no its not rapidly spreading... thank you


----------



## Pearl2011

Lucky you, how long have you had him?


----------



## MistersMom

a few months...


----------



## MistersMom

*Does Poseiden have this disease? im worried...*

Sorry for all the pictures, i just want to be sure.... is this the disease? :'(


----------



## MistersMom

as you can see its mainly just on his chin... and stomach... :/


----------



## Sakura8

Perfectly normal coloration.  The greying of the belly may mean he is getting old, but it can also mean the start of an internal problem. So just keep an eye on him and make sure his behavior is okay and he's eating.


----------



## MistersMom

Oh thank God. Thank you  i was so bummed, i only had one plate of spagetti and thats not normal for me, i was so scared he was dying   okay, he has a hole in one of his 'dangly' fins, but i did a 100% water change in the 10 gallon, just like monday! and i add salt to their water occasionally... would you know what its from


----------



## Sakura8

Some wear and tear on the fins is normal. Those long fins of theirs are also very fragile and prone to some rips every now and then. My HM always has tears. Just watch and make sure the hole doesn't develop a black ring or that his fin doesn't rot off overnight. Otherwise, he should be A-OK. 

And :lol: about the spaghetti. You MUST have been pretty worried.


----------



## MistersMom

Lol, i was... and thank you!


----------



## Sakura8

You're welcome.  Glad it's not the disease.


----------



## MistersMom

me too!


----------



## MyRainbowBettaFish

mmm Spaghetti......Glad hes ok!


----------



## MistersMom

lol, thanks and me too, i love sketti :3


----------



## FishyFishy89

is it me or does he appear to be pine coning?


----------



## MistersMom

he's not i checked, he has before though...


----------



## FishyFishy89

In this picture he appears to be pine coning.



MistersMom said:


> View attachment 62327


----------



## MistersMom

yeah i noticed that, but from the top of him, hes fine.... im not sure what was wrong, but the grey has gone away also, quite a bit of it anyways...


----------



## BLACK008

*Where to send fish for necropsy?*



Sakura8 said:


> I wish to spread awareness about a disease that has struck several times in the recent months. It moves very, very, very fast, often killing within 12-24 hours. Nothing is known about this disease except that it is a bacterial disease that causes rapid and acute tissue necropsy and that it seems to strike blue bettas in particular. Several people are working on identifying this disease, including veterinary student DarkMoon17, but *WE NEED YOUR HELP*.
> 
> If you have a betta who develops the following symptoms or dies, please *DO NOT DISPOSE OF THE BODY*. It is very important that we have a body to send in for a necropsy. Several people have volunteered to take the bodies to local universities or veterinary clinics near them. All we need you to do is save the body and contact DarkMoon17 or me immediately.
> 
> The symptoms of this disease are:
> 
> * graphite gray or near black tissue necropsy that spreads from the bottom of the fins upward to the body within hours
> * sudden loss of mobility as the swim bladder is affected
> * death or conditions so severe that they require euthanasia within 12-24 hours, occasionally as long as 36 hours
> 
> The betta will look something like this:
> View attachment 45260
> 
> 
> There have been speculations about what it is, including suggestions that it is an acute strain of columnaris, but *NOTHING IS KNOWN FOR CERTAIN. PLEASE DO NOT* post speculations about what this disease may be unless you have been able to identify the disease through lab work. Such speculations only cause aggressive debate.
> 
> Any and all cooperation is much appreciated as we work to identify this disease so we can figure out a way to combat it. Thank you very much.


 I want to send him, he was a blue betta, please reply asasp! So I can help.


----------



## Sakura8

Hi Black008, welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear your betta died of this disease. If you would like to help, you can send him to me. PM me for details. Shipping costs can be reimbursed if you have Paypal. In the meantime, if you can, try to get a hold of some formaldehyde to preserve him. A local veterinary clinic should have some and if you explain what it is for, they should hopefully give you enough to preserve him in a small specimen jar.


----------



## Fredsterbit

Hey guys, I'm new here but I would like to suggest something. Those of you who have lost a betta, my condolences. I think it would help greatly if the victims would post as much detail as what the environment of the betta was like at time of death. List where you got it from, test the water at the local pet store, any plants, decorations and the type of gravel, and lastly a list of products that was used before and after the disease. I think this we MAY find some sort of correlation as to what iscausing this problem.


----------



## prodrumernate

this is not good..i constantly watch my bettas for any changes.luckily i have not seen anything like this..really hope we can hurry and come up with a cure and more info about it.


----------



## Sakura8

Thank you very much for the suggestion, Fredster. I agree with it. Every little bit of info helps.


----------



## Friendlyfishies

nvm


----------



## Bladezero

Well I think its that and I've lost almost a whole aquarium to it..
Blue and some greens got the necrosis version and few of the others got the normal version or the acute one...

BUT One was saved with the use of 2 things together.. methylene blue and API Furan..

Another one was cured with a self surgery.. He's a big ear male, the necrosis started on his "ears" and he just bit it off after a about 15h suffering.. I was planning to cut the infected parts myself to try and save him but he got it before me 

Anyway, If anyone has a chance to try the meds I said would be nice.. To know its not a one time deal that I got lucky..

(Whole aquarium = my female community) more then 10 dead, 4 on the way out and 6 almost fully recovered..

I didn't read the whole thread but I saw the word dropsy pop somewhere, One of the girls thats still alive has Dropsy and being treated right now with PP baths and Epsom salt
Hopefully she'll make it.. She a tough one.. My Alpha girl...


----------



## Andrew890

Hi, I have a fish suffering from this 'mystery disease'. He seemed perfectly fine all up until I decided to do a gravel cleaning and took out waaay too much water. My plan had been to only take out a small percentage of the water during the cleaning, replace it with conditioned water, and add some plants I got from Petco. But I took out about 90% and ended up replacing that. The day after the water replacement and addition of new plants he started showing signs of what I thought was fin rot - but within two days his tail was completely gone and it was spreading to his body. I'd say I took pretty good care of him prior - he was in a two gallon tank, with a filter and a single plant, I never really changed the water or cleaned the gravel because I figured he was so small he couldn't possibly make much filth (boy was I wrong), but he still never became ill - I fed him the typical Hikari food pellets, about 4 2x per day (which I recently learned was really too much ) - I had bought him from Petco (in Providence, RI) a couple months ago. Never treated his water with any products except for water conditioner, more details here Don't know if this helps in any way, but I was recommended to post what happened here


----------



## Little Leaf

is the disease still alive? and what's the name of the disease?


----------



## Sakura8

The disease is still going around and unfortunately, we have no idea what it is so we don't even have a name for it.


----------



## Alcemistnv

To be completely honest, this is what I'm scared of losing my boys to. If they go, I want it to be from age, or something that's come up so aggressively that they just can't fight it.

I just can't bbear losing any of them to thise disease. I hope a cure is found soon.


----------



## Little Leaf

Sakura8 said:


> The disease is still going around and unfortunately, we have no idea what it is so we don't even have a name for it.


OMG. I can't believe the disease is still alive after all these months... and come to think of it, Equinox seems to have strange colors... we should find a cure and a name, I'm thinking we should do it quick, before anyone else's betta is infected!


----------



## Little Leaf

Alcemistnv said:


> To be completely honest, this is what I'm scared of losing my boys to. If they go, I want it to be from age, or something that's come up so aggressively that they just can't fight it.
> 
> I just can't bbear losing any of them to thise disease. I hope a cure is found soon.


yea, now its the same here... King Dedede is my most favourite betta, I don't want to lose my first betta!


----------



## Alcemistnv

Little Leaf said:


> yea, now its the same here... King Dedede is my most favourite betta, I don't want to lose my first betta!



I'm only afraid because in the 7 months I've had Buddha, he's only been sick twice: Constipation and fin rot. So the fact that he's been basically on a clean streak with all that's going on scares me :/


----------



## Little Leaf

Alcemistnv said:


> I'm only afraid because in the 7 months I've had Buddha, he's only been sick twice: Constipation and fin rot. So the fact that he's been basically on a clean streak with all that's going on scares me :/


I'm afraid because King Dedede is blue- Sakura said that it is striking blue bettas in particular, oh, and King Dedede was never sick but I'm very attached to my bettas


----------



## briztoon

Hi guys, new to the site. I was directed here as one of my bettas appears to have a similar condition as to what others have witnessed.

I'm just going to cut and paste my post from my home forum. Oh, I'm in Australia by the way.


My male Blue HM developed what I thought Fin Rot about two weeks ago. Apart from the shredded fin, he is active and appears healthy. 

I water change his tank 20% twice a week, usually during the middle of the day (I work nights) between feedings (morning 3 live black worms, afternoon 2 Hikari betta pellets).

Since the fin rot started, I have been doing a 20% to 40% water change every day, and for the last 5 days I have treating with an anti biotic.

I think it may have started as a small tear in the dorsal fin, that turned grey/white and slowly lengthened, spread and is shredding the dorsal fin. 

I have tried photo the damage for people opinion and help. The water is currently yellow from the medication, so he appears as steel blue, but he's a Royal Blue HM.


----------



## Fredsterbit

*I don't think it's the disease*

From your description, it is not the mystery disease. It's moving too slow. It seems like just a case of fin rot, it may also be some mechanical tearing.. You haven't seen anything or have anything in its enclosure that can damage his fins do you?


----------



## Sakura8

I agree with Fredster, moving much too slow. But that doesn't change the fact that we're seeing some pretty bad necrosis here.  What is the antibiotic you're using?


----------



## Little Leaf

Sakura8 said:


> I agree with Fredster, moving much too slow. But that doesn't change the fact that we're seeing some pretty bad necrosis here.  What is the antibiotic you're using?


what's necrosis?


----------



## Sakura8

Necrosis means dead tissue. That's what the black stuff is: tissue that has literally died.


----------



## mstenorsaxplayer

I has a blue baby! I must watch him!


----------



## mstenorsaxplayer

Do you know what causes the disease?


----------



## Little Leaf

Sakura8 said:


> Necrosis means dead tissue. That's what the black stuff is: tissue that has literally died.


maybe THAT is why the betta with the mystery disease dies? too much tissue dies? (just a guess, trying to help... )


----------



## LebronTheBetta

LL, why aren't you responding to your thread about Dedede?
And I'm sure Sakura knows why they died, she's the expert here on sicknesses no doubt! Dead tissue leads to infection, correct?


----------



## Little Leaf

LebronTheBetta said:


> LL, why aren't you responding to your thread about Dedede?
> And I'm sure Sakura knows why they died, she's the expert here on sicknesses no doubt! Dead tissue leads to infection, correct?


I just did.

*eats raspberries*

and I think of myself as a betta failure. my mistake count on this site is over 9000.


----------



## lelei

LL..no not a failure we are all learning here..and something like a Mystery Disease..is something no one here is prepared for..and apparently..a lot of bettas are at great risk..


----------



## Little Leaf

lelei said:


> LL..no not a failure we are all learning here..and something like a Mystery Disease..is something no one here is prepared for..and apparently..a lot of bettas are at great risk..


great risk... my betta has a lump near his gills, A HUGE LUMPY LUMP


----------



## LebronTheBetta

When did you find that out? D: Make a thread, you should cure it before you rehome.


----------



## Little Leaf

lebronthebetta said:


> when did you find that out? D: Make a thread, you should cure it before you rehome.


i made a thread and i am worried! I found it today!


----------



## lelei

Is there a way we can tally how many bettas have been affected by tis aggresive disease..and mabe make a runnin log of symptoms..tail type and date of when it struck..to get a better idea of some variables??


----------



## Xiuhcoati

I have a betta that appears to have been struck by this disease. He was fine yesterday, dead today. I am not sure if this is the same disease, but have the body in the fridge just in case. Can someone message me to help me figure out how to confirm?


----------



## Xiuhcoati

Here's a picture of the gray bits of the body. Sorry if I'm mistaken.


----------



## prodrumernate

poor guy...looking at his tail and the example tail of the OP post..it looks the same but cant be certain.maybe worth taking in anyways


----------



## Sakura8

He's the first non-blue betta to be struck by this, which is a little worrisome. Xiuhcotai, is that pretty much what his coloring was like when he was alive or did he have any more blue to him?


----------



## FishyFishy89

Sakura8 said:


> He's the first non-blue betta to be struck by this, which is a little worrisome. Xiuhcotai, is that pretty much what his coloring was like when he was alive or did he have any more blue to him?


The 1st non-blue?
I believe I see blue on those fins.


----------



## Sakura8

Some blue, yup. First one who wasn't mostly blue. We've had a few with red wash but they still had 98% blue, especially their bodies. I'm concerned because that guy looks like a marble with a red almost cambo body.


----------



## prodrumernate

is this known to be only on blue bettas?


----------



## Sakura8

It seems to be predominantly blue or teal blue bettas, yeah.


----------



## Xiuhcoati

Yes that was his color mainly. I only have a couple blues, and this is not the first time the disease has struck here...just first time I thought to take pics for confirmation. I also lost my Flag, a gorgeous full half moon with a perfect spread, best little personality you can imagine. He was teal, red and black with a white edging. So beautiful. I tested all the water parameters when he died, boiled everything fish related, wiped and sanitized till I was sure it was gone.

Then this one died. I jus got him a few days ago. He didn't even have a name yet.


----------



## Xiuhcoati

Looks like taking him somewhere isn't feasible. I called everyone in my area, and those who are willing to do necropsies aren't willing to do them on tiny ornamental fish.


----------



## lelei

So, now there is a possibility that it is striking bettas with colors other than blue, or red/blue combination,  scary..


----------



## lillyandquigly

My CHeng is blue and green and alot of other colors, so that's freaky. Thankfully Ferdy is orange so he hopefully us safe


----------



## prodrumernate

oh,i need to keep a closer eye out ekkk..


----------



## Xiuhcoati

Definitely keep an eye out, but keep in mind nothing's absolute. I'm very unsure of this disease, so I hate to scare people with what I _think _is the disease. I'm not a vet or anything, I've got no real idea.

I encourage everyone to examine their betta's fins closely twice daily. I just inspected mine, and I'll tell you I jumped out of my skin when I saw discoloration on one of my teals. I think its just that...discoloration...but we'll see.

Who all has a betta who died from it? What products do you use to treat the water? Do you have heat? A filter? What size is the tank? Is there gravel? Perhaps we can figure out if there's something else in common by simply putting together what we know.

Male that died:
1 gal aquarium with gravel, in a climate controlled room.
Fed: pellets mainly, once a day
Water changes: every 2-3 days, 100%
Filter: No
Tests for ammonia: usually not. Tested when first betta died thinking I wasn't changing water enough. Ammonia was 0, along with nitrites and nitrates. PH was a little alkaline. 7.2
Water conditioner: Prime

Anything similar here?


----------



## Xiuhcoati

Just an update: Blue stopped blowing bubbles today, and appears to have some gray. I'm taking photos and medicating, with any luck its just his natural color. x.x I'm also taking pictures of all my bettas NOW, so I can compare if they ever get sick.


----------



## Sakura8

What is pretty baffling about this disease is it happens to bettas who are kept in very good conditions. Most diseases are associated with poor water quality but as far as I'm aware, the majority of our victims were kept in clean water that was changed regularly.


----------



## prodrumernate

ive been keeping an eye on my 4 bettas.all r happy and moving around.but constantly inspecting their bodies..oh i really hope they figure things out soon and come up with a cure quick


----------



## Xiuhcoati

Blue is still alive, and back to bubblenesting so I'm thinking it's his coloration and I'm panicking unnecessarily. Whew! Didn't really pay attention to my bettas exact color before x.x

Everything seems to be normal over here. I sincerely hope someone can find out what it is. I found out from a local vet you can send bodies away to be necropsied, but starting price is $150.


----------



## prodrumernate

ive dont that before..not realize the colors of mine..thought something was wrong.looked at an older picture.realized i just didnt pay attention at the time 

150 dollars?wow...this disease seems to be striking more often,,,makes me curious to what it could be..


----------



## Sakura8

Xia, if necessary, anyone who does send away for a necropsy will be reimbursed for the costs as long as that person has PayPal. Forgot to mention that sooner.


----------



## prodrumernate

oh the place that that person sent it off from reimburses them?im not even sure where i could do that here.God forbid any of mine get it...im almost wondering if its a genetic type of things and not so much a disease.like a mutation..are all of the infected one from pet stores?


----------



## Sakura8

The place doesn't reimburse them but I will, and maybe some other members who might want to chip in.

I tend to think it is a genetic issue as well, seeing as so far the majority of bettas affected are blue. Perhaps even if the betta isn't solid blue, it must have to carry a certain blue gene (no pun intended) to be affected. Also, the fish who were affected were from all over the world. One case was in India, two were in different parts of Canada . . .


----------



## prodrumernate

oh wow thats awesome..especially for those who want to do it but may not exactly be able to afford it.. 

i too think even though it is 1 of a different color..it has a dominant blue gene trait in it that carries that disease..since its all over the world.can rule out it being from a certain source and has to be most likely a gene problem..could have laid dormant for a while.and new conditions have woken it up..climate change.water conditions.or whats in the waters itself since water is treated and not rain water sitting on the ground..there are so many different variables that could cause it.could even be plants.as well as the oil on human hands when we clean out our tanks.

if i had the gear.id do my own research..look for maps of a healthy betta gene and see if i can find any patterns that may differ from the sick ones provided i can see a sick 1 or any difference in gene with the ones i now have if possible to extract DNA samples without harming mine.though i could go to LPS and find dead ones as i have recently


----------



## Xiuhcoati

I'll see about getting the company name. You have to ship the fish soon after death...a few days is too long.


----------



## prodrumernate

Xiuhcoati said:


> I'll see about getting the company name. You have to ship the fish soon after death...a few days is too long.


thank you..im also out in phoenix as well if that makes any difference on closer locations..but would like the info just in case or if i know ome1 nearby or any1 who has an infected betta/fish i can inform them if symptoms resemble it..


----------



## Sakura8

Thanks, xiuh. I can pass the name of the company on to DarkMoon17 as well.

Nate, I agree, I wish I had a whole lab and a research team to tackle this. Just buy all sorts of blue and mostly blue bettas and watch and wait. A lot of people have theories out there on what this is but I'm like you, I think it's genetic and linked to a certain blue gene.


----------



## prodrumernate

ive been keeping a closer eye on all my fish especially Keiichi since he is blue..he seems fine and being himself again..but with his fins still torn off and not fully healed yet.hard to see if anything big changes on him or not.....this is when i need to win the lottery.or 1 of us win it..and start a small lab of a few on here..get some research done  does it have a name yet?or some kinda search term i could look online about to get more info?i know there wont be much info but i could see what else i can find


----------



## Sakura8

No name yet. For a while, we thought it was something called "fur coat syndrome" but it turns out that was totally bogus. Fur coat syndrome doesn't exist.


----------



## Fredsterbit

There's a lot of inbreeding in bettas. I think this may be one of the causes.


----------



## lelei

Well whoever studies the fish that comes up with the disesases that already have diagnoses maybe we can write to them descibing what people are witnessing..and put a few pictures in an email to the company..they might want to furthur investigate and do some research of their own to get a possible diagnosis..if they see in pictures an get an idea of how many bettas its inflicting they may even know of somone who may want us to send them to them for that purpose..there has,to be a company who specializes in fish illneses..and who vcan research it more..


----------



## Fredsterbit

That is a very good idea. I'll see if I can find someone that has researched the matter in some way.


----------



## prodrumernate

seems like very little is known then especially it not even having a temporary name for it..


----------



## toddscire

*This might help some.*

I was just at a big shipper in BKK today and he has been getting some fish from us for a while. He said that the infection we are seeing is very easy to treat but with only high end meds. He treats the fish with 500mg Zmax pills or AZITHROMYCIN. At 500mg pet 10 gal of water. Every 24 hours for 5 days. Then he bring the temp to 89 for 2 days with clean water and looks for any fish that need a second run. It seems this is the same for a lot of Thai exporters. So this is not a color thing I am told. Hope this helps.


----------



## Sakura8

Interesting. But where to get azithromycin? I just checked aquabid and no one has it there. Does he treat at the first sign of necropsy on the fins or does he treat all new fish as a matter of precaution? Now to see where to find azithromycin . . .


----------



## Badjer

I'm fairly certain I just lost a Thai import to this. Here's a link to the thread I made: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=1267021#post1267021

People weren't kidding when they said this struck fast...


----------



## Silverfang

that does look like the graphite colour we've seen... :/ sorry about your boy, he was quite pretty looking otherwise.


----------



## Sakura8

Most of the cases so far have only been on the fins, no saddleback. It would just eat right up the fins and onto the body and they'd be gone within hours. I wonder though . . . what if there's a strain of columnaris that blue bettas carrying a certain gene are particularly susceptible to? So far, the general consensus has been that it could be columnaris but it's a form we never seem to encounter in non-blue fish. Only a necropsy or tissue sample could really tell. If we could only identify the strain of bacteria we're working with.


----------



## LorRenee

Hi, I got directed to this thread after my blue got what seemed like this. He, and another (grey silver and red) betta were in the same tank but through a divider. I've noticed tonight that the remaining fish is showing signs of this. 

It doesn't look like any scales are necrotic yet, but he's clamping one fin and the gills on one side are displaying a mucous layer. He's labored, and clearly unhappy. 

When the other Betta in the tank started going black, we moved him to another clean, 2.5 gallon half filled so he could get to water easily. We then did as much as we could to clean the existing tank (clean water scrubbed rocks, decorations, plants etc) We've also swapped filter cartridges and PH Tested the tank.

Currently the other fish is only displaying clamped fins on one side and a black mucous layer around his gills on one side only. The tank pH is about 7.6 and clean.

Based on Sena Hanslers post, I'm wondering if this is actually showing that the disease is contagious?

Can anyone offer advice or anything that we might be able to do to slow this or stop this? It 'looks' like we might have caught this early on. 

There is another fish in the tank, a gold spotted pleco but he is showing absolutely zero signs of issue


----------



## Fredsterbit

How fast is it spreading, where does it start? Can you post pics?


----------



## LorRenee

I'll start uploading now. It's hard to say how quickly this is setting as we've been out all day. Came back 12 hours later to see him not using one fin. As I look at him right now he is 'resting' at the bottom of the tank, one fin completely immobile and the black mucous on his gill moving farther and farther out on each breath

edit: he is also not resisting the net whatsoever and while he's always been a pale betta, his fins are 'pale' with some of his redness gone.


----------



## Bettaworldfighters

*I dont have a clue*

okay think for a moment ,ur bettas dont share same water,or same container,most betta keepers prefer to keep there pet in same container always. it looks like to me from a bad picture , that the chorine was removed from water ,but not amnonia, and the yellow ish areas are bruising under surface or blood thats not circulating, start deeping fish in quart jar of distilled water, with aquarim salt, deep for about 4 to 6 minutes , 4 to 6 times a day. and make sure water temp is in upper mid 80's [email protected]. Alex love to talk about fish.


----------



## LorRenee

Ok here's a pic. He's noticeably more pale with zero use of his forward fin on this side. The black you can see at his gill is flexing in and out with each breath, he has never exhibited this before and his opposite side isn't doing this either. 

The other (now deceased) blue Betta that was in the same tank had exactly the same around his gill but only on one side. He again, never displayed this before this infection. 

The photo is of him simply resting at the bottom at the tank. Pump is off, water is clean, but he isn't interacting at all with me as he usually is. Appetite is still there... sorta. Less than before.


----------



## Bettaworldfighters

[he looks like my steel blue bettacrown fins, if he's haveing trouble breathing lower water to about 3 or 4 inches , start salt treatments, deeping him in a quart of distilled water with 1.0 or 1.5 of aquraim salt , also drop a bag of decaf green tea in same quart jar,only use it on one fish dont treat multiple fish in same sick area.


----------



## LorRenee

We have no aquarium salt, nor green tea. It's 10:35pm so nowhere will be open to get any. Is there an alternative? He is swimming as I type this reasonably happily.


----------



## Bettaworldfighters

okay just read you had two bettas in same tank, the most likely have stress related disease bettas should be kept alone and at peace. 

[email protected], just call me Alex.


----------



## LorRenee

We had two bettas in the same tank yes, however the tank was divided by a screen mesh type divider. Neither could see the other, we tried this numerous times and there was no evidence of flaring or any other 'sight' of one another. We've not seen any 'stress' in the tank either


----------



## Sakura8

LorRenee, how long before the other fish died? One of the key characteristics of this disease is how quickly it kills, typically before we can begin to medicate or provide any other help. Was the blue guy in the pic acting normally in the morning but sick when you came home, or was he acting kinda off in the morning as well?

Did you ever notice what color his beard was when he flared? It's possible that's not black mucous but his beard emerging as his gills work extra hard. If that IS black mucous then, I don't want to know what the insides of gills look like because it can't be good. 

The good news is with the guy in the pic, I don't see the creeping gray necrosis. There's a little patch on his anal fin near the front but otherwise, he has a normal blue grizzle coloring. Pale but not graphite gray. Based on that, I might say this particular case isn't the mystery disease but perhaps a severe external parasite or columnaris infection. Either way, I would recommend getting him into 3 tsps of aquarium salt per gallon at about 78-80 F.

EDIT: LorRenee, just read your last post. Based on your descriptions, he should be okay without AQ salt until tomorrow.


----------



## LorRenee

Sakura8 said:


> LorRenee, how long before the other fish died? One of the key characteristics of this disease is how quickly it kills, typically before we can begin to medicate or provide any other help. Was the blue guy in the pic acting normally in the morning but sick when you came home, or was he acting kinda off in the morning as well?


The blue guy in my profile pic is the first fish that died. He showed little to no evidence of issues at 8am when I left for work. My fiancee noticed his black spot surrounding his forward fin around 3:30pm and by the time I got home at 5:45pm the necrosis had spread to nearly double the size. Dead by 1 am the following morning)



> Did you ever notice what color his beard was when he flared? It's possible that's not black mucous but his beard emerging as his gills work extra hard. If that IS black mucous then, I don't want to know what the insides of gills look like because it can't be good.


I'm not sure, the gills on the first fish were black, but jagged. We didn't open them up after the death to see it unfortunately. 



> The good news is with the guy in the pic, I don't see the creeping gray necrosis. There's a little patch on his anal fin near the front but otherwise, he has a normal blue grizzle coloring. Pale but not graphite gray. Based on that, I might say this particular case isn't the mystery disease but perhaps a severe external parasite or columnaris infection. Either way, I would recommend getting him into 3 tsps of aquarium salt per gallon at about 78-80 F.
> 
> EDIT: LorRenee, just read your last post. Based on your descriptions, he should be okay without AQ salt until tomorrow.


Ok thanks. I'll try and get AQ salt tomorrow and I'll condition a smaller tank tonight to transfer him. He's listing at times, but I'm staring at the tank right now and he's very active. This is a sudden onset which is what worries me since he was perfectly fine earlier this morning. 

Side question, would petco / petsmart stock AQ salt? Anything else to pick up while I'm there?


----------



## Coppermoon

Patience young padawans.....

I have actually dealt with this disease before. I have not cured it and the fish did die. As of April/May of last year, my BLUE fish room has had this in full force. Normally it was 1 fish, but now it have affected several. These fish are related, but not "directly". I spawned blue fish from different breeders. Starts out looking like fin rot and or Columnaris but meds do not work....right....

I've lost Monkey Face, Big Blue, Little Man, LM's unnamed juvie male (F2). 

Who has it now...Convention Girl, Little Blue, DT girl, DT male and Daddy. All Blue.....

Symptoms: 

Convention female: Black edging on mid anal from slight spawn damage. 12-24 hrs it was up to her belly, 12-24 hrs it was into her belly meat. (never presented the gray).

DTs and Daddy: Black edging and being eaten away with in 24-48 hrs.

Little Man actually presented the gray in his tail 24 hours before it fell off.

Fungus cure at about triple (or more) dose (1-10g tab per 1g, then 1/2 fresh "salted" water and 1/2 medicated water) has kept it at bay, but once you lower the medication and stop the salt, it come back worse.

I have a friend that has the DT girl (who has come down with it again even under HER care) and she is doing a swab smear and culture (Nursing School with microbiology background???), and her husband who is a High School Chemistry teacher and Adjent Professor, is doing a fin clipping under a microscope.

IF this doesn't provide anything, I have another friend that has access to a lab/lab tech...the whole 9 yards...that I will ask to send Little Blue to. He is still alive, but I'm willing to sacrifice him to find out what it is. I haven't been successful enough in raising fish to have been selling them, so if what I have comes back as something like TB, I will post it and all my fish will be destroyed.

My thoughts are a bit jumbled so forgive me...
I'm getting pix of those that have it right now, but until this thread, I didn't know anyone else was dealing with it.


----------



## Sakura8

I'm so sorry, LorRenee. 

Coppermoon, if you could get lab results on this and a positive result, I would be sooooo happy . . . 

Yes, there was some discussion that this was the gourami iridovirus but I'm not sure. If it is the iridovirus, it makes sense that very little we do helps. As far as I'm aware, most viruses aren't treatable.

Also, I'd be very curious to know, if it is the iridovirus, why it only attacks blue bettas. Dang, I wish we could get a scientific grant to study this.


----------



## Coppermoon

Sakura8 said:


> I'm so sorry, LorRenee.
> 
> Coppermoon, if you could get lab results on this and a positive result, I would be sooooo happy . . .
> 
> Yes, there was some discussion that this was the gourami iridovirus but I'm not sure. If it is the iridovirus, it makes sense that very little we do helps. As far as I'm aware, most viruses aren't treatable.
> 
> Also, I'd be very curious to know, if it is the iridovirus, why it only attacks blue bettas. Dang, I wish we could get a scientific grant to study this.


At this point, I just want to ID if it is bacteria or fungus or virus....then we can figure out how to treat it.

I have pictures of everyone that has it, but my laptop doesn't have a port for my camera card so I have to wait until I get to work tomorrow.

I looked at images of gourami iridovirus and that is not even close to what I'm dealing with. None of mine have lesions.

Crossing fingers that something can be found by next week as to what I am dealing with.

Those that have it, keep all fins crossed!!!

Lori


----------



## Sakura8

Very much agreed, Coppermoon. Hope your fish hang in there!


----------



## Coppermoon

Thanks 

My avatar is one of the males I lost. That is Big Blue. He was placing 1st or 2nd in shows before he came down with it, so saving Little Blue is very important to me...but like I said, I'll sacrifice him if I have too.


----------



## Sakura8

I'm so sorry. You know, I just never thought about how devastating it would be for this disease to strike a shower/breeder. You not only lose a dear pet but a champion and potential breeder of champions too. A triple whammy. What an awful disease.


----------



## Alcemistnv

I just euthanized Buddha because of this disease. It's funny, I remember saying a few months ago about how I didn't want any of my boys, especially him, to get it....

He started with the fungus, and this morning the grey showed up. It progressed in a few hours, and he started swimming upside down at some points. He passed at 6:48pm today.

I'm just really upset about it because it was either I do it now, or he wakes up tomorrow covered in it and in pain....


----------



## Sakura8

I am so sorry, Alchemistnv.


----------



## Alcemistnv

I'm happy to know he's okay now.

I just wish he was able to understand how much he has helped with my life. I'd probably be in such a terrible place if it wasn't for him.


----------



## Creat

I really hope results come in soon I have been stalking this for a while I too have had this... similar lack of results from meds... I was talking with someone and they mentioned that it seemed similar to hole in the head dont know if it is or not...


----------



## Coppermoon

I am sorry to all who have lost fish from this. I really hope that something shows up. That almost sounds horrible...lol.

Jalyssa...again I am sooooo sorry about Buddha :'(


----------



## Coppermoon

I'm posting Pix of the infected fish on Betta Lover's FB page. They are also on Lone Star Bettas FB page and IBC yahoo group.


----------



## dramaqueen

I haven't looked at this thread in awhile. I'm so sorry for those of you who have lost fish to this disease and I hope that we'll someday have a cure.


----------



## harleraven

Does anyone know the biochemical pathway involved in producing blue fish? Genes regulate entire pathways, so if something is altered in development due to the gene(s) that cause blue, it is possible that it is also what leaves blues susceptible to the disease.

In many mammals, spotting genes have a lot of problems associated with them, especially when homozygous (two pairs of the same version of the gene [called alleles]). Basically, the gene disrupts the migration of precursor cells (undifferentiated neural crest cells) that would normally eventually become a myriad of different cells, including pigment cells. It causes the white spots, but it also leaves other areas not fully developed. In homozygous animals of some species, it can cause problems with hindgut development, deafness, and other problems.

For those that have spawned any of the blues that have succumbed to this disease, determining their genetics might be very helpful in learning more about what makes them susceptible. I really don't know much about betta genetics, so bear with me.

From what I gather, steel blues are the result of two steel blue genes. I am not sure if it is dominant or recessive. Royal blue is one green and one steel blue gene. So the question is, do royal blues get this disease, or just steel blues?


----------



## Coppermoon

The girl pineconed so I put her down. DT girl that is at friends house pineconed yesterday. Boys are still doing ok. Both girls will be biopsied some time next week.


----------



## Sakura8

Harleraven, I'm not a breeder so I can't really answer the gene question but looking back at the pics, it seems like royal blues were the first to be hit with blue-teals and steels next.


----------



## asukabetta

Is this is it...


----------



## Sakura8

Possible. If it is, it will move very, very fast.


----------



## Coppermoon

Distilled water, 1/2 tap to 1 tap salt (start with 1/2 and increase slowly). Triple Sulfa. Temp no.higher then 80°F. Daily water changes for 10 days and no more then 14 days..
and bleach everything!

This goes against everything we know as fish keepers, but if caught early it can be slowed down. I am about to take them out of this so I don't know if it is gone, but this at least stops it before it kills.


----------



## asukabetta

Coppermoon said:


> Distilled water, 1/2 tap to 1 tap salt (start with 1/2 and increase slowly). Triple Sulfa. Temp no.higher then 80°F. Daily water changes for 10 days and no more then 14 days..
> and bleach everything!
> 
> This goes against everything we know as fish keepers, but if caught early it can be slowed down. I am about to take them out of this so I don't know if it is gone, but this at least stops it before it kills.


Just saw this a tad late. The silver is almost at the body... I do not know what to do, I do not want him to suffer... he cannot swim anymore, he's fighting to remain in the bottom but his swim bladder forces him to float upwards.

9 hours has passed since my last pic.


----------



## asukabetta

Aquilies died this morning at 3 am, I stayed up all night with him. Since it was impossible to keep the body stable till 10 am that the nearest vet opened I gave him a river burial.


----------



## Wendyjo

I know this has been mentioned before, but this is probably columnaris.

I cross posted this thread on another forum of very experienced fish keepers, since I've never dealt with this disease myself, and those who responded said that this is columnaris. I know that classic columnaris involves tufts of white or gray, cottony looking "fungus", altho is actually caused by bacteria and is not really fungus. However, it doesn't always appear cottony or stringy looking. I also know it can spread and kill very fast and can be very difficult to cure. So just because some of these cases may not look like classic columnaris and don't respond to treatment doesn't mean that it's not columnaris.

Anyhow, I did some searching on it to see if I could find pics that match the pics of the bettas I've seen on here, and I did. Here are some links:

http://www.aquascope.net/tropical-fish-diseases-columnaris/

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/columnaris.html

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/columnaris_elenawong.html

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/tropical-fish-diseases/ich-fin-rot-40351/

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/ColumnarisF.htm

So take it for what it's worth, but this is probably a very virulent strain of columnaris.


----------



## Sakura8

It's definitely been mentioned that it's columnaris and it seems to me like a very high possibility. But the part that worries me is how it only attacks blue bettas who are kept in good conditions. It's like a blue gene columnaris only. Can a bacteria do that? Evolve to attack only a certain color betta?


----------



## Wendyjo

I have no idea. I know I read here that this has been seen in other colors as well, just not often. I'm wondering if maybe the necrosis of the tissue just looks different because of the blue color of the fish? Like what might look whitish or light gray on a lighter colored fish looks darker on a darker colored fish, and that's why this "appears" to be only effecting the blue bettas. Just an idea. It's also possible that it's killing so fast that the "fungus" that grows over the wounds doesn't have time to develop in some of these cases, which makes it harder to diagnose and makes it look "different" since that is also one of the classic symptoms.

Looking thru some of the pics here, for example the pics on page 30 of this thread, you can easily see the classic saddleback shape so common in columnaris. That, the fin rot, and the speed at which it spreads and kills all point to columnaris.

This thread was started in January, and there was alot talk of people having necropcies done on their fish and samples sent to labs - what happened with all that? A look at the bacteria under a microscope would determine if it was columnaris or not as the "stacking" is supposed to be easily identifiable.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have said on this thread or forum before, that I believe it to be a very fast-acting and virulent strain of columnaris or at least something very similar. 

I agree that I think it may just be how this particular strain/disease actually presents that is causing the grey discolouration to occur on blue fish only. 

It would be interesting to see the results of a necropsy. With the amount of medications and toxins most mass-produced bettas seem exposed to during their life prior to purchase it is not surprising that a disease like this would be prevalent.


----------



## asukabetta

Sakura8 said:


> It's definitely been mentioned that it's columnaris and it seems to me like a very high possibility. But the part that worries me is how it only attacks blue bettas who are kept in good conditions. It's like a blue gene columnaris only. Can a bacteria do that? Evolve to attack only a certain color betta?


Perhaps there is something in their gene that makes them weaker to this?

But it's amazing how they die within 24 hours of getting it. Surely bacteria is slower no?

I absolutely love blue bettas... I have a blue VT and a semi red blue HM. -_- I don't think I could take it if one of them succumbed to the mystery disease yet again.

Plus does it only affect pure blues, or even those with a slightly blue coloration are weak to it?


----------



## mstenorsaxplayer

Thank God this isn't happening to my baby. He is a blue veiltale, so I will definatly be on the lookout.


----------



## Wendyjo

Columnaris is known to move and kill very fast, so it's not unusual at all. In community tanks it can wipe out an entire tank of fish in a matter of days. It attacks ALL fish, not just bettas and not just blue fish. How it presents itself varies from case to case, which is probably why it's been misdiagnosed for so long.


----------



## betaTHE betta12

My beta has all these symptoms but he also had a cotton spot. He has been sick for 5 daUS now


----------



## Coppermoon

LittleBettaFish said:


> I have said on this thread or forum before, that I believe it to be a very fast-acting and virulent strain of columnaris or at least something very similar.
> 
> I agree that I think it may just be how this particular strain/disease actually presents that is causing the grey discolouration to occur on blue fish only.
> 
> It would be interesting to see the results of a necropsy. With the amount of medications and toxins most mass-produced bettas seem exposed to during their life prior to purchase it is not surprising that a disease like this would be prevalent.


It is columnaris...traditional med resistant. Distilled water, 1 tsp salt, Triple Sulfa will (so far) get rid of it. Daily water changes, Temp at 78* F and no higher then 80*, bleach nets, containers AND your hands!!! I bleach my hands, then wash them with antibacterial soap.

My 3 guys are recovering nicely! LB has a tail again...it is very short, but it is growing back.


----------



## Coppermoon

This treatment does NOT work... Everyone is worse then ever. Attempting to send the adults to the lab for confirmation on MY fish. IF they accept them, and once I get the confirmation I will post it. IF it is what I think it is, I suggest that you DO NOT rescue any fish with symptoms!!! IF it is what I think it is, there is NO cure, and bleach doesn't kill it.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Coppermoon said:


> This treatment does NOT work... Everyone is worse then ever. Attempting to send the adults to the lab for confirmation on MY fish. IF they accept them, and once I get the confirmation I will post it. IF it is what I think it is, I suggest that you DO NOT rescue any fish with symptoms!!! IF it is what I think it is, there is NO cure, and bleach doesn't kill it.


I doubt it is what you may think it is.
My crowntail was living in the same tank my previous betta was in. And he had this disease. My crowntail is still alive and well today.


----------



## Sakura8

I'm so sorry to hear the treatment didn't work, Coppermoon.


----------



## Coppermoon

Thanks Sakura. If it is what I think it is (had a fish sent to a lab with another breeder's fish, so I want mine independently tested. I contacted the lab, but haven't gotten a reply. Even under treatment again, they are not getting any better) and it comes back verified, then I'm nuking my entire fish room and starting over.


----------



## Sakura8

Oh lands. That bad? I'm shuddering to think what you think it is.


----------



## asukabetta

I just lost my Blue VT to this disease... I used medicine and aq salt as best as I could but it kept advancing, it's the second time this has happened. I asked a friend to Euthanise him for me Q_Q he will not become another Aquilies victim. I'm so depressed right now... no more blue bettas for me...


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Could someone please check my thread? My new blue HM from Petsmart died last night. Someone suggested that it was this mystery disease. Symptoms are on page 1. Pictures (before and after death) are on page 2. 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=122079

If it was this disease, how do I disinfect everything (tank, silk plants, rocks, clay pots, etc)? 

And how do I keep my other two blue bettas healthy?

Thank you.


----------



## RoMay

Someone mentioned inbreeding as being possible. While this may be cause of some outside source inbreeding has been known to cause issues with the immune system. Out of curiosity is there anyway to track which of these bettas came from pet stores, and which came from breeders? If anything else you can maybe find out which one is more likely to be/get infected/inflicted. This is actually very interesting and scary reading about this.

Sorry for all the lost fish, and good luck to those recovering.

Question: It just has came to my mind has anyone tried feeding these fish some garlic oil (food soaked in it at least)? I know it may seem weird but out of everything out there to give a fish garlic is pretty rounded.


----------



## callistra

Coppermoon said:


> This treatment does NOT work... Everyone is worse then ever. Attempting to send the adults to the lab for confirmation on MY fish. IF they accept them, and once I get the confirmation I will post it. IF it is what I think it is, I suggest that you DO NOT rescue any fish with symptoms!!! IF it is what I think it is, there is NO cure, and bleach doesn't kill it.


Bleach kills everything.. Maybe it's just highly high contagious and jumping ship somehow. Has anyone tried Kanaplex or Maracyn Plus? Kanaplex is often effective against very strong columnaris that is resistant to everything else. It's rare that Kanaplex won't work on columnaris. Likewise Maracyn Plus is more effective and less resistant. Furan-2 has some potential to work as well, but I wouldn't start with that one. I've seen Triple Sulfa fail with regular columnaris, none the less with this fast stuff. It wouldn't be my first med choice. Likewise, salt has no chance.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

When you say it only affects blue fish, do you mean any of these three colors, or just the first two:
BB - steel blue
Bb - royal blue
bb - turquoise/green

If it only affects steel and royal, is it linked to the "B" gene somehow? Or, if it's not genetically linked to a color gene, then how could it only (or even mostly) affect blues? What's different about them?

(I realize that there may not be any answers to these questions yet, but I figured I'd ask.)


----------



## Viva

Wow this is the first time I've seen this thread. Its very interesting...a mystery disease affecting ONLY blue bettas? Or is it just more prevalent in blues? Starting to wonder what killed my blue crowntail a couple years back, he mysteriously fell ill and died in about 24 - 48 hours. Saw no physical symptoms though.


----------



## Sakura8

Furan-2 has been recommended by a good resource to be very effective against columnaris. Kanaplex is a good med but it is not always the best choice for certain kinds of diseases. Triple Sulfa is effective against fin rot that is caused by a certain pathogen.


----------



## Jessa24

Hmm...interesting. Please keep us updated. Makes me wonder about Nemo's death...he was fine and then suddenly died within 24 hours with no physical symptoms. Splash is blue too...Oh no. Now I am worried.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Jessa24 said:


> Splash is blue too...Oh no. Now I am worried.


I understand your feeling. My CT is also blue, but so far he hasn't shown any symptoms.


----------



## DenWin2567

*Fred is Deceased*

So my wife and I woke up this morning to find our betta Fred dead in the water. I don't know what it is, and although slightly different, this is the closest thing we could find, especially the speed of it.

Last night at around 2330 I noticed a dark grey/black spot about an 1/8" diameter under the front of his dorsal. By 0200, when we were going to bed, it had grown to 1/4" and I noticed it had a ring of white surrounding it. I was going to do a 50% tank change this morning, but when I woke up at 1100 I found him floating. Still want to do the research on this. He was a blue betta, had him for about 6 months from PetCo, usually very active though last night was hanging out by the water intake, wouldn't even come up to his feed hole last night. Lightly tapped next to him and barely moved last night. I had just done a 100% water change on Thur and today was supposed to do a 50% today. I'll attach some pictures as well to give a better look, just not sure what it is or how it happened. The main thing is the speed of it seems like what is being talked about here, just a few small differences, like the ring of white and not starting at the fins.


----------



## Sakura8

DenWin, I'm so sorry. That does sound like our mystery disease because it moved so fast. I'm sorry for your loss. Do you still have the body? You are close enough that you might be able to contact UC Davis and see if they will do a necropsy. You would be reimbursed for this if you have a PayPal account. If you are interested in pursuing that avenue and you still have the body, get it into some formaldehyde as quickly as possible to preserve it. UC Berkeley might be able to do something but UC Davis would be a better choice because of the veterinary school.


----------



## DenWin2567

I would if I could, but my wife already have it a burial. I didn't know the place to take it was so close or I would have done so. She's scared to get a blue one again because of this thread, but next weekend I think we'll look for another betta.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sakura8

That's all right, it's understandable to want to bury them right away. I do the same. And I don't blame you for avoiding blue bettas. Good luck with your next betta.


----------



## prodrumernate

has it been linked for sure only to those with blue? havent red any of the comments lately


----------



## Sakura8

Not for absolute certain but so far pretty much all of the cases but one have been blue, teal, or mostly blue.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Genetically speaking, is there a difference between teal and green? Ie: Is teal just green with a blue tint or wash? Or are teal and green the same thing?

Thanks!


----------



## FishyFishy89

If you remember back to color mixing basics, green is made by blue/yellow. So I would think it could be affected as well.
Cal was a teal, light blue veiltail.


----------



## Coppermoon

Little Blue was the only one that has shown signs of the gray before the rot. I did spawn a yellow to a blue, and she came down with the rot. She was totally unrelated to the blue male. My PK show male now has it. I am sending all my adult fish to a Lab for diagnosis. I have 8 fry from the Royal/Yellow spawn, and 7 from the Royal PK spawn. As soon as I can get them send, and get results back, I'll post what was found in MY fish.


----------



## Coppermoon

I got my diagnosis today. It IS Mycobacterium! This is what is considered fish TB (but from the Lab Manager....it is NOT TB!!!!!!!) Which verity is unknown because it would have cost me 3x as much as I'm gonna have to pay (which that is still unknown). The rot is a secondary infection...the fish is dying so the fins go first. Cleaning instructions Per the Lab.... scrub/scrap any scum/mineral build up off the tank, heavy bleach solution for AT LEAST a couple of hours...decor...if you can't bleach it...throw it away. Rinse well and spray with rubbing Alcohol (70% iso....). Let dry and set for a couple days.

There is NO cure for this...no medications help...the fish will eventually die from this crap being in internal organs.

This is also more common in the hobby then most people want to admit.

Lori


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Lori - I'm sorry for your losses. Thank you for investigating this, and for letting us know the results. 

Do you think you'll be able to save the rest of your fish? Is it easily transmissible among fish? Did the lab state whether this variety of Mycobacterium can be transmitted to people or other pets? 

Again, thank you for investigating this and letting everyone know the outcome. I hope you're able to save your remaining fish.


----------



## Coppermoon

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Lori - I'm sorry for your losses. Thank you for investigating this, and for letting us know the results.
> 
> Do you think you'll be able to save the rest of your fish? Is it easily transmissible among fish? Did the lab state whether this variety of Mycobacterium can be transmitted to people or other pets?
> 
> Again, thank you for investigating this and letting everyone know the outcome. I hope you're able to save your remaining fish.


Great questions!!! Non transmitted to mammals!!! Well...it can be, but it is more hands, and can be cleared up with antibiotics...I don't use my hands if I have an open wound...I use gloves.

Highly contagious between fish!!! I do not know which of the 4(?) strands it is because it is 3x as much to culture it...and I still don't know how much THIS is going to cost. lol...I may need to ask for donations .

ALL my Betta and my 75g, and my 5g killi tank have been exposed through fish/plants. My new OB Peacock chiclid has been exposed through fish (cull babies) and plants. Plant tank has been exposed through spawning.

There is no cure. I will be destroying all the juvies that I have growing out, nuking my fish room (going to use http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_reviews...78d-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5#CBFSuperQuail instead of bleach), and I'm going to start from scratch with total new stock.

My new wilds have been exposed through tanks and plants. The only ones safe are the 55g at work, my 10g peacock endler tank, and (about 80% sure) my 10g RCS tank (may have been exposed through plants)....IF I got this from the original breeding stock. It could have come from live foods. It could also have come from my faucets themselves. There is no telling WHERE it came from.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Below is some information from an article that I found informative. 
Note especially the information regarding disinfection protocols: bleach alone is not effective.

*Mycobacterial Infections of Fish* - Southern Regional Aquaculture Center
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/

_"Mycobacterial diseases of fish are common, particularly in intensive aquaculture systems and display aquaria. These diseases are collectively referred to as “atypical mycobacteriosis” or simply “mycobacteriosis.”...

Mycobacterium causes a chronic disease, usually characterized by wasting. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition and also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. Occasionally, deep hemorrhagic skin lesions will be seen in addition to the more common superficial lesions. Because the disease can masquerade as a number of other conditions.....

Mycobacteriosis is typically a chronic and progressive disease and should be suspected when there is weight loss or loss of condition, especially when accompanied by scale loss, ulcers, or non-specific hemorrhagic lesions (Fig. 3). A “dropsy-like” presentation characterized by extreme abdominal distention, fluid accumulation, and scale protrusion has been reported in zebrafish infected with M. fortuitum. There may also be a history of ineffective use of antibiotics if fish are mycobacterium-positive. Occasionally, exophthalmia will be observed in infected fish. The disease, however, can manifest itself in many different ways so there is no typical presentation.....

Mycobacterial infections of all fish should be considered non-treatable. Although there are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may resolve temporarily but often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued.....

*Disinfection protocols...*
The system should be thoroughly cleaned and bleached, following usual protocols, to remove organic material and biofilm that may harbor organisms. Afterward, all surfaces in the system should be disinfected with a mycobacteriocide.... 

Mycobacterial organisms are more resistant to disinfection protocols than most bacteria encountered in aquaculture settings. A waxy coating in the cell wall of mycobacteria gives them extra protection from many common disinfectants, including bleach. Effective mycobacteriocidal agents include Lysol® (1% benzyl-4-chlorophenol-2-phenylphenol), sodium chlorite, and ethyl alcohol at 50 or 70 percent concentrations, but not 30 percent (which requires at least 10 minutes of contact time). Chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite), even at concentrations as high as 50,000 mg/L, is only moderately effective in reducing the number of mycobacterial agents in the environment. Roccal® and Virkon®-S are ineffective."_


----------



## Virto

I can't believe we have a cause after all this time.

Culling all of those fish cannot be easy, I'm sorry you have to do it. But this gives a lot of people answers, finally. We all owe you for the time and expense you've put into this, Lori.


----------



## prodrumernate

luckily none of mine have been infected.though i do have a sick female..best i go ahead and post about it since im here


----------



## Coppermoon

Guys....this is really hard to post. IF you see signs...this is the end of the life of the fish. Meds prolong the pain. Please just destroy the fish and throw out all decor. Bleach may or may not rid this. I talked to my Vet and got some major strength cleaner that human labs use. All my tanks except 3 are contaminated through my plants. This should NOT be taken lightly.


----------



## dramaqueen

Thank you for sharing this information with us, Lori. I'm so sorry about all your stock.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

I think one of the issues is that the symptoms can vary a lot, which means it may not apparent that a fish is suffering specifically from Mycobacterium infection. 

According to information in the link I posted above, bleach is NOT effective at killing Mycobacteria. It has a waxy coating that protects it. To kill Mycobacteria, a disinfectant, such as Lysol, is needed. 

(This has me worried, since I think my male HM died from this. I cleaned the tank with bleach, and put my new HM into it. He became ill last night....)

But I still don't understand why this would affect primarily *BLUE* fish?


----------



## prodrumernate

i would think it has something to do with the blue gene...maybe a trait carried on it that was dormant and just started up recently with the new breeding and kinds out there.thats my opinion.but with not knowing much about it.it could be anything really.im baffled myself


----------



## Sakura8

Lori, I cannot thank you enough for finally solving our mystery disease but I am so sorry it had to come at the price of your precious stock.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Does anyone know the minimum incubation period for Mycobacterium infection?

Could a fish become ill after 4 days of being exposed? (If so, I may have a non-blue with it.)


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Does anyone know the minimum incubation period for Mycobacterium infection?
> 
> Could a fish become ill after 4 days of being exposed? (If so, I may have a non-blue with it.)


I did some research, and the answer appears to be that no, a fish wouldn't become ill after just 4 days. There are some forms of Mycobacteria that are faster growing than others, but even the faster ones aren't that fast.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Coppermoon said:


> I got my diagnosis today. It IS Mycobacterium! This is what is considered fish TB (but from the Lab Manager....it is NOT TB!!!!!!!) Which verity is unknown because it would have cost me 3x as much as I'm gonna have to pay (which that is still unknown). The rot is a secondary infection...the fish is dying so the fins go first.....


Here's what I found:

It is not called TB because this is specifically reserved for _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_, which causes TB in people, but does not affect fish.

There are several types of _Mycobacterium _that do affect fish. As a group, they're just called “atypical mycobacteriosis," and all fish are susceptible to them (to one degree or another). It results in a chronic and progressive disease. However, the symptoms and signs can vary widely, so there is no "typical" presentation. 

_Mycobacterium_ thrives in warm water temperatures, that have low dissolved oxygen levels, acidic pH, and and lots of organic material. 

In the lab, classifying the organism as _Mycobacterium _is relatively straightforward. However, determining the exact species is a more involved process. (This is why it costs a lot more.) Different species grow at different rates, under different types of conditions, etc. 

However, it doesn't really matter what species is present, because: "Mycobacterial infections of all fish should be considered non-treatable. Although there are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may resolve temporarily but often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued. As described for food fish, depopulation and disinfection of all contaminated equipment is recommended."


Source: _*Mycobacterial Infections of Fish*_ - Southern Regional Aquaculture Center (SRAC Publication No. 4706) - November 2011
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/


----------



## callistra

Mycobacterium is a very slow moving illness, that can be treated but is also very difficult to treat. It is probably the most difficult disease to treat. The meds have to go internal and the treatment can take up to a month. Kanaplex is probably most effective. Also adding vitamin b supplements to the water can also be helpful as it helps boost their immune system. I've used Vitachem. This fast rot thing is NOT Mycobacterium, although TB fish may get a secondary infection as the fish TB weakens the immune system, and that infection could be this fast rot thing. Not every fish with this rot is battling TB too.


----------



## Sakura8

I'm afraid this fast-moving disease IS mycobacterium because there is a positive lab result. It is NOT fish TB though. According to one of my sources, there are supposedly only two strains of mycobacterium that affect aquarium fish, m. marinum and m. fortuitum. However, that particular source, while still offering outstanding advice, is also slightly out of date (published in 1998). Another more up to date book says there is also mycobacterium chelonae.

According to this book, any of the three mycos can cause the symptoms that we identify as fish TB (the wasting, the spinal deformity, the ulcers). There is an average incubation period of roughly 6 weeks before the onset of symptoms. 

Although we have a positive diagnosis, I'm still very much perplexed by the symptoms caused and by the targeted fish. I feel like some more research still need to be done. What if we are facing a new strain of myco that exhibits entirely different symptoms? As Callistra noted, myco or fish TB is usually a slow-moving, wasting disease. This comes on and kills in usually 24 hrs.

It doesn't appear to be the "rot" that is killing the fish. Rather, since myco attacks internally with granulomas that attach to the stomach walls and other organs, it would appear an inner battle is taking place that we don't know about until it reaches critical. If a granuloma bursts and the infection reaches the bloodstream, this may cause the rapid downturn that we see. The rot or necrosis is most likely a side effect of the internal organs dying in what is probably an unpleasant manner.


----------



## callistra

Oh I see where she said it was nontuberculous mycobacterium now.. She also said it wasn't confirmed because she didn't pay the cost for testing.. so I guess her fish has some strain of mycobacterium. 

Just because the fish that had the rot also had a mycobacterium disease doesn't mean that was the bacteria that caused the rot. It's very common for fish that have NTM (and TB) to also contract secondary infections because of a weakened immune system. Reading back I also see Coppermoon said the rot was a secondary infection.

Until we get a bunch more people confirming that mycobacterium is present in every single case of this I still highly doubt that's the case because it is completely uncharacteristic of the disease process

And again I would like to reiterate despite Coppermoon's insistence, there is a cure for mycobacterium, it's just a long process and there's no guarantee of recovery. Especially in the case of Coppermoon's still healthy but potentially infected fish.. I'd be doing 2 weeks of Kanaplex with Vitachem and seeing how it turns out, instead of just assuming all the currently healthy stock are going to die.


----------



## Olympia

So sorry you had to lose your stock, Lori. I remember Basement Bettas saying she had to clear out her fish room due to Myco too (though I don't know how recently that was.)

I'm glad that we have a diagnosis now, but it's too bad there's nothing more to be done. 

It really is for the good of the whole that Lori culls her stock, I believe. There's always a chance that some rogue bacteria survives (especially with so many fish) and stays in her fish, eventually spreading once again through breeding, bred fish going to new homes with this disease. Risking the lives of thousands would not be worth it for "oh poor mr fish has some small chance!" in my opinion.


----------



## Sakura8

Most experts generally suggest euthanizing/culling if myco is suspected. The only feasible way to try and treat a case is if it is your only fish and there is no chance at all of spreading the bacteria.


----------



## Olympia

From Tazman (in Quebec, Canada):
".....they have had several people come in with dead betta from this as well. They sent a sample off to have it verified as well and it also came back with a new powerful strain of mycobacterium, they have to get it scientifically verified though before a public announcement can be made. One of the staff is a member of the IBC and has passed information on to them to publish a paper on it."


----------



## Sakura8

As one strain becomes resistant, new strains appear. This is definitely a development that needs to be followed.


----------



## Olympia

Typically this sort of stuff happens from medicating but not curing. Myco is already hard to kill and perhaps someone had tried medicating it, it fought off the medicine and grew stronger. (This is exactly what is happening with human TB, the symptoms go away so people don't do a full treatment and it comes back worse). 

All I can say is that when this gets verified, I will become a lot more sensitive about bringing in new fish. Oddly enough this seems to be confined to betta fish for the most part. :shock: No new bettas for me.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Olympia said:


> From Tazman (in Quebec, Canada):
> ".....they have had several people come in with dead betta from this as well. They sent a sample off to have it verified as well and it also came back with a new powerful strain of mycobacterium, they have to get it scientifically verified though before a public announcement can be made. One of the staff is a member of the IBC and has passed information on to them to publish a paper on it."


Do you know if the fish that died were blue-colored? Because until now, it seems like the discussion on this thread has centered around blue bettas, specifically.... Or could this new strain of Mycobacterium be another disease that's becoming prevalent, and be occurring in addition to the blue 'mystery disease?'

Also, do you know when they hope to publish the paper? (Wondering how long we need to wait. LOL)


----------



## Tazman

Mycobacterium is present in small quantities in almost all aquariums whether you like it or not. It can actually infect humans and cause serious health issues.

The strain which has been identified is one which has slightly mutated, the instance of it effecting only blue fish may have something to do with the genetics of blue betta. From what the person I spoke to said, the color pigmentation in blue betta is a perfect breeding ground to infect the fish. ONLY a dissection of the fish will reveal that it is indeed mycobacterium, there are specific nodules to look for on in the liver, gill plates and soft tissue of infected fish.

The supplier they use for the their Bettas sells all over North America and has been studying this disease with the help of a microbiologist specializing in fish disease from the Japanese Society of Fish Pathology a world renowned society for the study of fish disease.

There is no indication as to when a paper will be published on this.


----------



## Sena Hansler

I will mention, that considering wholesaler is basically where most of these fish are coming from, there has got to be a beginning to this disease, somewhere. I have never had it spread, BTW, and there has been people who have had divided tanks and only their blue, or a fish derived from blue, that got it. Though not all blues get it, for me my record stands at 4/5, and the 5th was bloody old when I got him, and he was determined to be an old breeder. 

The last fish I had got, he already had it and it spread too far to stop it. I would actually try again, keeping him well away from my fish room of course.

I had also fought off the disease for Shadow, however his internal organs had failed not but a week after, dropsy being the sign of his internal doom. Even if there is a cure, I will say above all else *DO NOT BREED POTENTIAL DISEASES* I culled Maine's entire spawn, because every single one of them would have been carriers, therefore continuing the line. I've also stopped getting any stock locally and have had to look further, even ship in. Though I won't say "never ever breed pet store fish" as people start out with them, if you do find your fish are infected with such mutated strains, please cull. even if you "think" the fish will be fine, do you really need to have 5-100 or so people complaining their fish died, do to a mysterious disease that took them between 12 and 72 hours?

It's too bad I got stuck on finding the origin of the blues from this store. It's a wholesaler, and that's all I could find out. If it were a breeder I would have contacted them to tell them what was happening. It could very well be someone from Thailand, Canada, USA, or anywhere in the world. The important thing is, to stop the disease at one fish.


----------



## Sakura8

The granulomas that attach to the organs are what often cause the spinal deformities in cases of fish TB, as they grow so big they cause collapses of tissue and bone and muscle. But it appears that death, for some reason, occurs so rapidly in these new cases, that the usual symptoms do not appear. I want to emphasize that although this is mycobacterium, it's not necessarily fish TB. 

Olympia brings up a very valid point about the medicating. It's important to always finish a full course of antibiotics, whether for fish or for yourself, to reduce the chances of the bacteria coming back with a vengeance.

Taz, thank you for shedding light on all of this.


----------



## Olympia

What I am not understanding... Is this bacteria only able to affect blue betta splendens? Others coming into contact are not affected? 
My last fish with any blue is on his way out, I expect he'll be gone when I get home, though not certain whether or not it would be the disease.. Any pictures of how to do necropsy and what to look for? Or anywhere to send the fish for a reasonable price (in Canada)?


----------



## Sena Hansler

The signs.... Usually lethargy, but more like a tired or lazy fish. Mos won't catch that. Second sign, is the one we see first. The fins go black, or ash grey, as the fins are dying. Only thing I found worked was kanaplex, on Shadow, when I noticed he was more "tired" and watched him and caught it as it appeared. If the fish gets ich (Maine did, overnight) the ich will move away hours before it spreads, as it needs to stay on a live host.

Here has been records of non-blues getting infected however it is more dominant in blues oddly. It could be an underlying genetic default, just like some diseases or problems for us only hit male or female, or even races, while a small fraction of anyone else gets hit with it.


----------



## Olympia

How obvious would the grey be on a black fish? His body has turned silver in death.


----------



## Sena Hansler

Not too sure. 2 of mine were royale blue with black and red here and there. It was obvious due to the crumpled look of the dead matter, and the silver grey coloration that became of their fins. Then their bodies. Can you put a picture up for us to determine it?

Another one of mine was a lovely blue based green. He was the late comer. Riddle was a steel blue.


----------



## bryzy

AHHH the mystery desease. I had a fairly young female die due to unknown causes, but she had no signs of this desease.


----------



## lillyandquigly

I have a question, have any of the bettas that died had a disease before? Maybe it's some crazy rebound


----------



## lillyandquigly

lol never mind just realized it's already been found out what this disease is. I just wish there was a cure


----------



## LebronTheBetta

The gray will always appear first on the fins, correct? What if you cut out the infected part? Or will it be too risky and life threatening? There's no cure for this disease at all. Maybe taking the infected part away will somehow "rid" the disease from the fish?


----------



## Olympia

Cutting away the grey sadly will do nothing, as the grey is a side effect from the internal organ failure. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LebronTheBetta

Oh, okay. Dang it. /: So there's no possible cure at all? And can this happen to other fish? (Sorry if I missed it in the thread, I usually look at first and last pages.)


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

LebronTheBetta said:


> The gray will always appear first on the fins, correct? What if you cut out the infected part? Or will it be too risky and life threatening? There's no cure for this disease at all. Maybe taking the infected part away will somehow "rid" the disease from the fish?





LebronTheBetta said:


> Oh, okay. Dang it. /: So there's no possible cure at all? And can this happen to other fish? (Sorry if I missed it in the thread, I usually look at first and last pages.)


It's caused by a strain of Mycobacteria. The progression is very rapid. My new HM went from fine, to lethargic, to gray fins, to death in two days.... By the time the visible symptoms appeared, it was too late. 

Mycobacteria, in general, is difficult to "cure," and this strain appears to be very aggressive. 

Since it's bacterial, it can be spread to other fish. For some reason though, blue bettas seem to be most affected. In one of the previous posts, someone mentioned this might have something to do with the pigmentation of blue bettas. Something about their blue coloration makes them particularly susceptible to this strain of Mycobacteria.

(I'm wondering if OTHER colors are also affected, but maybe the symptoms are different. If the disease is slower-progressing in the other colors, there may be different signs. But this is just speculation on my part.)

I found a good article on Mycobacterial infections in fish: https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/ (Published November 2011)

The article states: _"Mycobacterial infections of all fish should be considered non-treatable. Although there are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may resolve temporarily but often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued."_


----------



## Ogre44

I was perusing a copy of Amazonas magazine today and while reading an article entitled "The Endangered Cichlid Fishes of Lake Victoria, East Africa" came across a very small bit of information that may be pertinent to this discussion.
The gist of the article is that many of the cichlids from Lake Victoria have become extinct in the wild, and only exist in a breeding program that has the goal of maintaining viable populations of these fish.
One of the roadblocks to this program is that several "species have been diagnosed as carrying a potentially disease-causing Mycobacterium." The article goes on to say that young fish can manage the disease, but once senescence sets in their immune systems weaken, which often leads to disease, and that there is no Known cure for Mycobacteriosis.
One of the goals of the program is to reintroduce breeding populations of fish back into the wild, but the Mycobacterium presents an issue in that if it is not endemic to Lake Victoria they can't release possibly contaminated fish.
So, and this is stretching a bit, this disease may be from cichlids brought from a very closed environment and introduced to the hobby by breeders.
Or it may be the other way around, the Mycobateium may be from the hobby and there is a risk it might be introduced to the lake.


----------



## Coppermoon

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> I think one of the issues is that the symptoms can vary a lot, which means it may not apparent that a fish is suffering specifically from Mycobacterium infection.
> 
> According to information in the link I posted above, bleach is NOT effective at killing Mycobacteria. It has a waxy coating that protects it. To kill Mycobacteria, a disinfectant, such as Lysol, is needed.
> 
> (This has me worried, since I think my male HM died from this. I cleaned the tank with bleach, and put my new HM into it. He became ill last night....)
> 
> But I still don't understand why this would affect primarily *BLUE* fish?


I got some new info so I'll be quoting several posts I think. Bleach will not kill it. Scraping the mineral deposits off and cleaning with HOSPITAL STRENGTH lysol type products ONLY!!! House lysol will NOT kill it. Let set for several weeks dry and you will be fine. Decor can be cleaned as long as it is not porous (is that spelled right???).


----------



## Coppermoon

Sakura8 said:


> I'm afraid this fast-moving disease IS mycobacterium because there is a positive lab result. It is NOT fish TB though. According to one of my sources, there are supposedly only two strains of mycobacterium that affect aquarium fish, m. marinum and m. fortuitum. However, that particular source, while still offering outstanding advice, is also slightly out of date (published in 1998). Another more up to date book says there is also mycobacterium chelonae.
> 
> According to this book, any of the three mycos can cause the symptoms that we identify as fish TB (the wasting, the spinal deformity, the ulcers). There is an average incubation period of roughly 6 weeks before the onset of symptoms.
> 
> Although we have a positive diagnosis, I'm still very much perplexed by the symptoms caused and by the targeted fish. I feel like some more research still need to be done. What if we are facing a new strain of myco that exhibits entirely different symptoms? As Callistra noted, myco or fish TB is usually a slow-moving, wasting disease. This comes on and kills in usually 24 hrs.
> 
> It doesn't appear to be the "rot" that is killing the fish. Rather, since myco attacks internally with granulomas that attach to the stomach walls and other organs, it would appear an inner battle is taking place that we don't know about until it reaches critical. If a granuloma bursts and the infection reaches the bloodstream, this may cause the rapid downturn that we see. The rot or necrosis is most likely a side effect of the internal organs dying in what is probably an unpleasant manner.


EXACTLY!!! (not yelling ). What we are seeing is basically the body giving up the fight.


----------



## Coppermoon

callistra said:


> Oh I see where she said it was nontuberculous mycobacterium now.. She also said it wasn't confirmed because she didn't pay the cost for testing.. so I guess her fish has some strain of mycobacterium.
> 
> Just because the fish that had the rot also had a mycobacterium disease doesn't mean that was the bacteria that caused the rot. It's very common for fish that have NTM (and TB) to also contract secondary infections because of a weakened immune system. Reading back I also see Coppermoon said the rot was a secondary infection.
> 
> Until we get a bunch more people confirming that mycobacterium is present in every single case of this I still highly doubt that's the case because it is completely uncharacteristic of the disease process
> 
> And again I would like to reiterate despite Coppermoon's insistence, there is a cure for mycobacterium, it's just a long process and there's no guarantee of recovery. Especially in the case of Coppermoon's still healthy but potentially infected fish.. I'd be doing 2 weeks of Kanaplex with Vitachem and seeing how it turns out, instead of just assuming all the currently healthy stock are going to die.


ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS!!! THIS CAME FROM THE FREAKING LAB!!! I'm not posting heresay...this is what the LAB TECHS told me! My fish were EXPLODING WITH IT AND I WAS TREATING WITH Kanaplex!!! What I didn't confirm was the STRAIN OF MYCOBACTERIUM...THE FREAKING LAB SAID IT WAS MYCOS!!! Guess they don't have a clue what they are talking about......

Email DIRECTLY FROM THE LAB:

Our findings are as follows:

Number of fish received: 5 live, 1 dead on arrival
Number of fish examined: 5

Gross external examination:
Mild lesions on body (1 of 5 fish)
Moderate apparent necrosis and severe ragged appearance of fins (5 of 5 fish)

Microscopic examination:
Heavy granulomas on skin scrape (1 of 5 fish)
Mild gill congestion (1 of 5 fish)
Mild excess mucus surrounding gills (4 of 5 fish)
Mild telangiectasia of gills (1 of 5 fish)
Light (2 of 5 fish) to heavy (2 of 5 fish) granulomas in liver
Light (2 of 5 fish) to heavy (2 of 5 fish) granulomas in spleen
Heavy granulomas in posterior kidney (3 of 5 fish)
Light (2 of 5 fish) to heavy (1 of 5 fish) granulomas in stomach
Heavy granulomas in intestine (2 of 5 fish)
Light granulomas in testes (1 of 5 fish)

Acid fast benchtop stain of skin, liver, and spleen: Positive

Bacterial cultures of brain and posterior kidney of 5 fish: Negative at 48 hours 
Note: Brain and kidney were cultured for the presence of systemic bacteria other than _Mycobacterium_. Piscine _Mycobacterium_ species often require 30+ days before growth is present in culture. 

As discussed by phone, acid fast benchtop stains indicate presumptive _Mycobacterium_ sp. and identification of myco species will not be pursued. (Tissues containing granulomas have been preserved and will be archived for ~1 month if you decided you would like to pursue speciation of myco.)

Excellent information on myco can be found in the publication “Mycobacterial Infections of Fish” (publication SRAC 4706 at https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/viewAllSheets/). Information on depopulation and disinfection is included in the pub. (Be aware that there is a lot of inaccurate information on mycobacteria (and other diseases) in fish on the internet.) For disposal of your fish, there is really no great way, other than maybe incineration, which is obviously difficult for most people. However, since you’re dealing with a relatively small number/mass of fish, after you euthanize them (if using MS-222, give them plenty of time to ensure they are dead!), you could soak them in full-strength bleach for several hours. Although it will not penetrate the fish well enough to “disinfect” the myco, it may help at least with some surface bacteria. You could then neutralize the bleach and place the fish into double- or triple-bagged, heavy duty ziptop bags and place them in the garbage.


----------



## Coppermoon

Olympia said:


> What I am not understanding... Is this bacteria only able to affect blue betta splendens? Others coming into contact are not affected?
> My last fish with any blue is on his way out, I expect he'll be gone when I get home, though not certain whether or not it would be the disease.. Any pictures of how to do necropsy and what to look for? Or anywhere to send the fish for a reasonable price (in Canada)?


All my fish (event the ones in the 55g at work) are infected. Not all fish will show signs of it, but will be carriers. I have 2 Serpae tetra are showing signs of having it. I have not yet nuked the 75g as I have been working on my fish room. One step at a time...lol.

It is not limited to blue fish. I've had a yellow get it, and it moved fast. She was spawned with a male that was sent to the lab. She came down with the rot quickly....now was she exposed before that...most likely she was born with it. I had been keeping all my breeders in the 75g in the stick on barracks, so her parents were most likely exposed...if they were not the carriers themselves.

My last fish to show signs was my BEST male (PK...yes blue). Started out as a whole in his ventral and with in a week, his FACE rotted off!!! I'm serious, I noticed 1/2 of his upper lip was gone (at this point I still had no idea what I was dealing with), and I had a new VERY eggy female and attempted a spawn. I assumed she did it to him, so I pulled her. Tank had IAL in it so I didn't add any other medication. About 3 days later, I noticed he didn't eat. I looked at him and he had the rot. I pulled him out and jarred him with meds, 2 days later his entire upper lip was gone. from here it was lower jaw...it was horrible! He died with in 12 hrs of this. I attempted to keep him alive for the lab. He was the dead fish in the email post...


----------



## Shewbert

We are marine/fresh importers plus a quarantine centre for 3 major airports around London.
We had a batch of Malawi electric blues come through the quarantine all had this strain of infection.
They all died within 36 hours and the spores were evident throughout the whole body of the fish, not only the fins.

My Daughter is a marine biologist and vet, they did extensive lab tests but it was a strain of infection that did not compute as a regular strain, but showed signs of a cross strain.
I will not go into lab test results but my daughter did not have time to research any further.
We disinfected the quarantine tank an refilled it as we normally do.
We had some Discus through quarantine that all looked well, we placed them into the tank, within 2 weeks we lost the lot due to the same infection,,,identical to the photos,,
But the tank had been disinfected with hospital grade cleaning fluid?????? 

We had to end up steam cleaning the Quarantine tanks and equipment to rid us from this terrible disease.
It is extremely virulent.
Thought that I would share this info.
Hope you never encounter this, we are experts with over 30 years experience and it caught us out badly.
Ray


----------



## Roemgie

I have two blue females that I adopted yesterday one passed away this morning the other one looks just like this only I thought it was from being eaten by the frogs and other fish that were with her. I have the other female in a tissue and I was getting ready to bury her. What should I do??? And I have another blue male that's my friends who is perfectly healthy but their tanks have been beside each other. What should I do to make sure he's safe??


----------



## Sena Hansler

Just keep an eye on him. What worked for me, with Shadow (who later died of organ failure but did survive this) was KANAPLEX. Always check on your fish... Morning, and night. If something seems off, especially if you feel he could be attacked by this disease, such as I knew with Shadow when 3 other fish I had from the same store, all blues, passed away from it (different times)... I kept a closer eye on him and caught it hours after it started.

The most common sign I found between them all, was lethargy. They would act as if they were sleeping, sleepy, or just plain lazy. They weren't. It was a very early response to "something is wrong". That is why you should always make sure your fish is absolutely healthy... Makes it easier to know when something is seriously wrong.


----------



## Roemgie

Sena Hansler said:


> Just keep an eye on him. What worked for me, with Shadow (who later died of organ failure but did survive this) was KANAPLEX. Always check on your fish... Morning, and night. If something seems off, especially if you feel he could be attacked by this disease, such as I knew with Shadow when 3 other fish I had from the same store, all blues, passed away from it (different times)... I kept a closer eye on him and caught it hours after it started.
> 
> The most common sign I found between them all, was lethargy. They would act as if they were sleeping, sleepy, or just plain lazy. They weren't. It was a very early response to "something is wrong". That is why you should always make sure your fish is absolutely healthy... Makes it easier to know when something is seriously wrong.


The two girls I adopted, I did so because they were acting sick, here they are http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=1392651#post1392651 I don't have that medication on hand and it will take a few days for me to get it. What should I do with my tank if she does pass away???


----------



## Roemgie

Also I saw them last Sunday (with no visible sign of any illness) and I saw how bad she was yesterday brought her home and today she is the same. The only difference is that her tail area is getting that foggy coat which I would imagine means that it is dead skin (hopefully not)! So that would make it almost 3 days since she's had what ever illness. Wouldn't that be a good sign that the illness she does have isn't the feared unknown one?? This is her last night


----------



## Sena Hansler

My Maine had it for 72 hours. Another fish of mine had it for approximately the same amount of time. It is the disease... Half of her body is just dead tissue now. I rescued a boy of the same colore before, tried to amputate the disease that had all his fins... Before it got to his body. It was too late for meds at that point, but I was too late as it already got too close to the body.


----------



## Roemgie

Sena Hansler said:


> My Maine had it for 72 hours. Another fish of mine had it for approximately the same amount of time. It is the disease... Half of her body is just dead tissue now. I rescued a boy of the same colore before, tried to amputate the disease that had all his fins... Before it got to his body. It was too late for meds at that point, but I was too late as it already got too close to the body.


Ok so if this is the mystery disease what should I do if/when she passes away? I heavily decorated her tank so that she could have places to hide and her late sister. If I have to throw away my 5 gallon I understand but personally I'd like to keep it but I don't want to get any other betta sick. She's also not eating so I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before she passes away.


----------



## Sena Hansler

No, you do not need to throw away  

What I did, even though it is not contagious I acted as if it were like a plague... 

Hot HOT water, and vinegar (50/50%) is what I used since I am allergic to bleach... You can use bleach. Not 50/50 of course :lol: Just a small amount. Clean all the fake plants and ornaments in scalding water, and bleach solution. 

Toss the gravel... Even though it can be cleaned, I never risked it. Rinse everything a heck of a lot, until you feel it is safe to let dry, and refill. 

Clean the heater with a damp hot rag with the bleach solution, then rinse it well under luke warm water. If there is a filter, clean it out and get a new cartridge even. I wouldn't chance anything.


----------



## Roemgie

Sena Hansler said:


> No, you do not need to throw away
> 
> What I did, even though it is not contagious I acted as if it were like a plague...
> 
> Hot HOT water, and vinegar (50/50%) is what I used since I am allergic to bleach... You can use bleach. Not 50/50 of course :lol: Just a small amount. Clean all the fake plants and ornaments in scalding water, and bleach solution.
> 
> Toss the gravel... Even though it can be cleaned, I never risked it. Rinse everything a heck of a lot, until you feel it is safe to let dry, and refill.
> 
> Clean the heater with a damp hot rag with the bleach solution, then rinse it well under luke warm water. If there is a filter, clean it out and get a new cartridge even. I wouldn't chance anything.


Ok I can by some vinager but I do have bleach and last time I cleaned my tank I have to admit I added I would say a lot of the amount that was suppose to be added. Right now my 2.5 i just cleaned is sitting with water in it but I'll rinse it again tonight and let it out to dry. I just threw the towel I always use for my fish in the washer with a lot of bleach (I was panicking because I didn't want to get my friends fish sick since he is so healthy and alive and is getting ready to go into a nice cycled 10 gallon!)

Lets say if a miracle happens and she does make it, what do I do? right now she hasn't moved much but is still flapping her pectoral fins. I'm just so scared because I accidentally dropped some of her water (from the top of her tank) and I don't know where it landed. Some i know on my desk and the floor but I hope no where near Umi!


----------



## Sena Hansler

I wouldn't worry, as like I said it is not contagious. It's more genetic, then anything we believe. If she survives, I suggest keeping the water warm and clean. Epsom salt is a good idea as when Shadow survived, his organs shut down a week afterwards and he passed away. It may help with the internal problems that may have been caused from the tissue breaking down on the outside. 

We also do not know if they can relapse... So keeping an eye on her would be essential.


----------



## Coppermoon

Yellow boy came down with it...put him down. Highly contagious!!!, bleach won't kill it (per a person that actually works with human TB on a daily basis). Has to be a cleaner that kills human TB. Got mine through my vet...$20 a gallon...got 4 gallons of it.

Proper disposal of fish. Dead fish in ziplock baggie...triple bagged per lab. depose of in garbage. BEST way is to incinerate fish body. Not spreadable through the air.

relapse WILL happen. This is NOT fin rot!!! fin rot does not eat into the body...


----------



## FishyFishy89

I seriously don't think this is contagious. My CT lived in the same tank my VT(who had the disease) had lived in. My CT lived in that tank for over 6 months until the plastic broke. I didn't even bleach the tank. I just cleaned it with white vinegar. And this CT is still alive to this very day.


----------



## Sena Hansler

TB is a lot different than this disease. TB is contagious... To people as well as other animals.

As for this disease, we have had people who had sororities, or divided tanks and never had a problem with the other fish. Stress can be a factor, as it lowers the immune system giving this disease all reason to attack.

Since Maine, who was bred, was technically in contact with Madame and his spawn, they should have all gotten it if it were contagious. Another one of my fish were in a divided tank. the other fish was fine. I just stopped getting blue fish from that particular store... And culled all of Maine's spawn.


----------



## Coppermoon

I'm about done. I'm sorry for anyone who has to deal with this. I know I for one will avoid ANY fish with these symptoms. My Endlers at work are now showing this non-contagious Blue Betta disease. Got 2 Tetra with it too. I'm gonna post pix of some of this non-relapsing disease as soon as photobucket finishes uploading them.

Send me a PM if anyone wants a link to a fish vet that might examine their fish for a confirmed diagnosis.

I really wish I had taken pix of the male that his face rotted off, and the blue male with no dorsal because he didn't relapse, or the DT that looked like I threw him in a blender....before I sent them to the lab.....


----------



## Sena Hansler

For all we know it could be a stronger strain. We've been fighting off this one and like any disease known to mankind a stronger uglier one will come along.


----------



## Coppermoon

Female (on the road to recovery):









Female (relapse...you can see her exploding with the Mycos):









Female (pineconing...I put her down right after this pix) You can see the gray scaling:









Little Blue (24 hrs after loosing his tail):









Recovery:









Relapse:









Daddy with new growth:









Daddy relapse (he ended up loosing his entire dorsal):









DT:


----------



## FishyFishy89

I'm wondering if what your fish got is a bit different from what has been the main talk of this thread.


----------



## Roemgie

I will use vinager if that's more effective than bleach. I'm getting ready to go check on her again but she hasn't eaten or at least from what I've observed so I don't know how much longer she'll be alive but if she does pass away I'll quickly clean my tank. I only have bleach though so if I can use that then I won't run to the store


----------



## Roemgie

FishyFishy89 said:


> I'm wondering if what your fish got is a bit different from what has been the main talk of this thread.


I know that comment isn't meant for me but could my girl possibly have columnaris?? I know that when a betta fish passes away their body gets very cloudy. That's what her back end is doing. Here's some pictures, she also is having swim bladder issues


----------



## Coppermoon

http://bettasource.com/more-betta/disease-id-treatment/mycobacteria

I was treating my fish for Columnaris. It presented it's self just like Colunmaris.

I sencerely hope that you guys don't have the mycos. This crap is awful, but I'm afraid that it is mycos. I know of at least 3 breeders that have had it confirmed (me included in the 3).

Good luck on treating this stuff....


----------



## Roemgie

Coppermoon said:


> http://bettasource.com/more-betta/disease-id-treatment/mycobacteria
> 
> I was treating my fish for Columnaris. It presented it's self just like Colunmaris.
> 
> I sencerely hope that you guys don't have the mycos. This crap is awful, but I'm afraid that it is mycos. I know of at least 3 breeders that have had it confirmed (me included in the 3).
> 
> Good luck on treating this stuff....


I don't think there's anything that I can really do anything at the current moment. She hasn't gotten worse or better and right now I'm just trying to figure out what to do and if she passes away, what to do with my tank.

Thank you for sharing the pictures though!


----------



## Coppermoon

When she dies, put her body into 3 zip lock baggies and dispose of her in the trash. Tank: clean/dry and let set for about a month. Like I posted, I got a cleaner through my vet. It has to kill Tuberculocidal. Household lysol does not have the right ingredients to kill it. You can also try bleaching the entire tank, rinse, then spray it with rubbing alcohol and let that set wet for for 5 mins. Wipe down, Rinse and bleach again. Again rinse then spray with alcohol again and let it dry. It still must sit dry for several weeks before it would be safe to use again. I got the cleaner because I didn't want to wait that long. IF you can't bleach it, throw it out. I'd throw out everything but the tank...all decor...cheap enough to replace it.

The lab told me that getting the mineral build up off is VERY important because it likes to live in places like that. This cleaner takes that off with a little scraping on my part.


----------



## callistra

I am just wondering.. and I don't want to offend anyone.. if anyone who has had their disease confirmed as mycobacterium have also tested to see if there were strands of columnaris present, and positively ruled out that there were no strands of columnaris and only mycobacterium in their fish?

I just ask because while I have no doubt that the people who have the disease confirmed genuinely had the illness, I just _also_ wonder if the actual disease process we're seeing here is a fast moving columnaris. It is very very common for fish with a primary mycobacterium condition to develop secondary infections. It's like fish AIDS.. something grabs hold and moves way faster and way more violently because of their weakend immune system. And since mycobacterium never has acted like this before, and columnaris does, it seems to reason that maybe the mycobacterium made them susceptible to something else that took them overnight.

So I'm just wondering if anyone has absolutely confirmatively ruled this out via testing?

Also as a side note, treatment for mycobacterium that is proven most effective (does have some positive results, though is probably the most fatal condition) is a MONTH long (some people even say 3 months) treatment of Kanaplex + secondary drug and supplement b12 (like vitachem), because shorter treatment most often results in a relapse.


----------



## Basement Bettas

callistra said:


> I am just wondering.. and I don't want to offend anyone.. if anyone who has had their disease confirmed as mycobacterium have also tested to see if there were strands of columnaris present, and positively ruled out that there were no strands of columnaris and only mycobacterium in their fish?
> 
> I just ask because while I have no doubt that the people who have the disease confirmed genuinely had the illness, I just _also_ wonder if the actual disease process we're seeing here is a fast moving columnaris. It is very very common for fish with a primary mycobacterium condition to develop secondary infections. It's like fish AIDS.. something grabs hold and moves way faster and way more violently because of their weakend immune system. And since mycobacterium never has acted like this before, and columnaris does, it seems to reason that maybe the mycobacterium made them susceptible to something else that took them overnight.
> 
> So I'm just wondering if anyone has absolutely confirmatively ruled this out via testing?
> 
> Also as a side note, treatment for mycobacterium that is proven most effective (does have some positive results, though is probably the most fatal condition) is a MONTH long (some people even say 3 months) treatment of Kanaplex + secondary drug and supplement b12 (like vitachem), because shorter treatment most often results in a relapse.


Going to create a new thread...


----------



## Basement Bettas

Roemgie said:


> I will use vinager if that's more effective than bleach. I'm getting ready to go check on her again but she hasn't eaten or at least from what I've observed so I don't know how much longer she'll be alive but if she does pass away I'll quickly clean my tank. I only have bleach though so if I can use that then I won't run to the store


Vinegar will not kill it.. please read the new post on mycos..

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=1393241#post1393241


----------



## FishyFishy89

Basement Bettas said:


> Vinegar will not kill it.. please read the new post on mycos..
> 
> Mycobacteria


Then I guess my CT and other bettas who were in contact with the disease talked about in this thread are super bettas.
I think this "Mycos" is a different disease than what this thread was originally posted for.


----------



## Basement Bettas

Basement Bettas said:


> Going to create a new thread...


when the fish is weakened it may get other disease.. but the underlying mycos is the issue. There is a mycos strain that looks like columnaris. If you treat fuzzy patches with meds for columnaris, and get no results. You have mycos..


----------



## Basement Bettas

FishyFishy89 said:


> Then I guess my CT and other bettas who were in contact with the disease talked about in this thread are super bettas.
> I think this "Mycos" is a different disease than what this thread was originally posted for.


no.. you just may have a strain that moves slower but is still killing your fish. there are several strains.. and your fish may have more than one. Your symptoms I had in a few of my fish... go read that post.. and the attached article


----------



## FishyFishy89

I doubt the same strand that killed my VT in less than 48 hrs is moving in my CT for longer than a year.


----------



## Olympia

I feel like we're back at square one?
I orginally thought Myco strains existed in almost every fish in the trade, often remaining dormant.
Now MT is just the same thing, another Myco that is staying dormant, in most fish, but something is causing it to act up for some people but not others?
If 70% of store fish really do have MT, we are not seeing a problem from most of them, are we? What makes it go deadly? I do know MTB can remain dormant in humans for an awful long time, like many diseases, just wonder what sets it off in these fish if they all have it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Basement Bettas

Sakura8 said:


> Most of the cases so far have only been on the fins, no saddleback. It would just eat right up the fins and onto the body and they'd be gone within hours. I wonder though . . . what if there's a strain of columnaris that blue bettas carrying a certain gene are particularly susceptible to? So far, the general consensus has been that it could be columnaris but it's a form we never seem to encounter in non-blue fish. Only a necropsy or tissue sample could really tell. If we could only identify the strain of bacteria we're working with.


you are dealing with mycos... if you treat for columnaris and get no results.. mycos.


----------



## Basement Bettas

Olympia said:


> I feel like we're back at square one?
> I orginally thought Myco strains existed in almost every fish in the trade, often remaining dormant.
> Now MT is just the same thing, another Myco that is staying dormant, in most fish, but something is causing it to act up for some people but not others?
> If 70% of store fish really do have MT, we are not seeing a problem from most of them, are we? What makes it go deadly? I do know MTB can remain dormant in humans for an awful long time, like many diseases, just wonder what sets it off in these fish if they all have it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is NOT dormant. Did you read the linked article? Some move slower.. and different strains give different symptoms. Your fish can have more than one.. and have complications in addition. Some strains are more deadly than others. You destroy the killers and manage the others. Go read that article..


----------



## Basement Bettas

FishyFishy89 said:


> I doubt the same strand that killed my VT in less than 48 hrs is moving in my CT for longer than a year.


No.. there are MORE than one strain. The Triplex acts very different than marinum..


----------



## Basement Bettas

Roemgie said:


> I know that comment isn't meant for me but could my girl possibly have columnaris?? I know that when a betta fish passes away their body gets very cloudy. That's what her back end is doing. Here's some pictures, she also is having swim bladder issues


That grey patch along the back and the fins ate off like this is mycos. NOT columnaris.


----------



## Basement Bettas

FishyFishy89 said:


> I seriously don't think this is contagious. My CT lived in the same tank my VT(who had the disease) had lived in. My CT lived in that tank for over 6 months until the plastic broke. I didn't even bleach the tank. I just cleaned it with white vinegar. And this CT is still alive to this very day.


See the gray patches around the snout? And behind the gill there? And the poor condition? He should have more meat on him. That boney ridge sticking out on his head.. should not be like that. That topline is bumpy .. not enough meat on him and it mycos tends to bump the spine up.

He has it.. it is a gradual wasting.


----------



## Basement Bettas

Sena Hansler said:


> For all we know it could be a stronger strain. We've been fighting off this one and like any disease known to mankind a stronger uglier one will come along.


Stronger strain of WHAT? 

WHEN will you face the fact you are probably dealing with MYCOS? For crying out loud. Would you tell a Dr that says you have cancer that is just a resistant flu bug? ALL evidence points to mycos.


----------



## Basement Bettas

asukabetta said:


> Aquilies died this morning at 3 am, I stayed up all night with him. Since it was impossible to keep the body stable till 10 am that the nearest vet opened I gave him a river burial.


RIVER BURIAL? What the heck is that? You never put a diseased fish into ANY water body. Fertilize your roses. Burn them or triple bag them and land fill them. If you put that fish in a water system that is totally irresponsible.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Basement Bettas said:


> See the gray patches around the snout? And behind the gill there? And the poor condition? He should have more meat on him. That boney ridge sticking out on his head.. should not be like that. That topline is bumpy .. not enough meat on him and it mycos tends to bump the spine up.
> 
> He has it.. it is a gradual wasting.


Excuse me??
He is far from "wasting away". You don't see any spine. Any "patching" you see if likely from the glass being spotty. And FYI, unless you somehow have another view of that same shot, you cannot see behind his gills. The white or grey spot on his head was from him getting a spook from my BIL slamming his mug on the kitchen counter. I see no "bumps" on his topline. His topline is straight.


----------



## Basement Bettas

FishyFishy89 said:


> Excuse me??
> He is far from "wasting away". You don't see any spine. Any "patching" you see if likely from the glass being spotty. And FYI, unless you somehow have another view of that same shot, you cannot see behind his gills. The white or grey spot on his head was from him getting a spook from my BIL slamming his mug on the kitchen counter. I see no "bumps" on his topline. His topline is straight.


That fish is not in a good condition. He is lean compared to what a happy healthy fish should be. And I can tell spots on a glass over ones on the fish. I have a pretty good idea of WHAT to look for as well as WHERE. His top line is not round and smooth and fleshed out. He is a bit hollow. There is a gre patch right behind his gill.. you can see the inflammation in the scales.

But I'm sure I don't know what I am talking about.. so just add salt and he will be better in the morning.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Basement Bettas said:


> That fish is not in a good condition. He is lean compared to what a happy healthy fish should be. And I can tell spots on a glass over ones on the fish. I have a pretty good idea of WHAT to look for as well as WHERE. His top line is not round and smooth and fleshed out. He is a bit hollow. There is a gre patch right behind his gill.. you can see the inflammation in the scales.
> 
> But I'm sure I don't know what I am talking about.. so just add salt and he will be better in the morning.


Apparently you don't. There are no "grey patches" and there is nothing wrong with him. Nit picking on someone's fish isn't something you should be doing(like the way you are) unless the person asks you to.

Lastly, if he wasn't fed properly then he would of already aten the shrimp in his tank.


----------



## Sakura8

Calm down, everyone, calm down.

Myco is a serious disease but let's not start to spread panic and let's not create an epidemic where they may not be one.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Every Post tonight has been the same thing BasementBettas. Why is that? They can't possibly all be the same thing.


----------



## Basement Bettas

Reefing Madness said:


> Every Post tonight has been the same thing BasementBettas. Why is that? They can't possibly all be the same thing.


Because it is VERY prevalent and no one wants to believe it. If you look at the head of that fish you can see patchy areas that are the start of the lesions. And there are already grey areas around the snout, If you look at the scales from the gill area back... you can see the start of it there in the scales. No need to believe me. That fish will prove me right in time. When he passes.. cut him open and look as all the pretty white speckles in all his organs.


----------



## Olympia

If every single fish has Myco then we should just stop keeping fish. :dunno:


----------



## Reefing Madness

I don't think so. To many different signs point to to many different things. I'm not even a FW guy, and on one other Post of your tonight yoiu stated the same thing. The Member started Treatment, and has had visible signs of treatment working. And form the looks of the BOO-BOOS, he bumped his head. All these can't be the same diagnosis.


----------



## Sakura8

That pit by the eye/mouth . . . is the nostril.

Okay. Enough of this. Basement Bettas, you have made your point and you have written a thread to educate people. Now it's time to back off and let people make their own judgements.


----------



## Reefing Madness

i'd be more worried about the ICH that the fish has in that pic.


----------



## Olympia

I'm going to say, not every fish lives in a half gallon barrack system with 0 decor. These are pets that deal with daily wear and tear on their bodies, from decor, and sometimes rough handling. Every nick or scrape on a fish doesn't mean a disease. Did you get permission to edit that photo?


----------



## Basement Bettas

the grey around the nostril is mycos


----------



## FishyFishy89

Basement Bettas said:


> Because it is VERY prevalent and no one wants to believe it. If you look at the head of that fish you can see patchy areas that are the start of the lesions. And there are already grey areas around the snout, If you look at the scales from the gill area back... you can see the start of it there in the scales. No need to believe me. That fish will prove me right in time. When he passes.. cut him open and look as all the pretty white speckles in all his organs.


Like I said, the "patch" you are seeing in that picture was a result of him being spooked from my BIL.
BTW, did you even bother to think the lighting can be causing what you're seeing. I'm looking at him RIGHT NOW. His body is completely black.
Go nit pick on your own fish.


----------



## Reefing Madness

Umm, let me interject here. We are here to give a reasonable diagnosis of a disease. Most of us are pretty positive when it comes to the easy stuff. But none of us here is a Marine Biologist.


----------



## Sakura8

Fishy, as the pic was your property and was edited without your permission, it has been removed.

BB, please don't edit people's pics without their permission.


----------



## Reefing Madness

This ones fixin to get LOCKED. Everyone needs to step back alil bit here and relax.


----------



## Coppermoon

I really do hope that what I had IS different from the disease this thread started out for. Mine was IDed by a Chemistry Teacher, Betta Genetics, SMP (Wild Betta), breeder friend of mine. His wife is studying to be a nurse and she LOVES microbiology. It was IDed as Columnaris on visual ID. She attempted every type of media to culture this for a positive ID of Columnaris, as she too thought it was a Mega Strain. She could not get it to grow. I myself had a breeder early on die, and I cut him open with in minutes of him dying...OMG the smell!!! It made me sick!

Now...please don't take my word for it. Treat it as Columnaris. This is an article written by my mentor for aquarium keeping. I have his permission to post his articles any time I need to. I have attempted not to post any links (per the rules), but some of them may still post as a link:

Columnaris along with Saprolegnia in particular (Saprolegnia is often confused with Fungus) are two of the most misunderstood and often mistreated aquariums diseases, even Wikipedia has at best marginal information (& this is being 'generous' as of my last reading of their article) about these pathogens and their CORRECT treatment and prevention (prevention is the key with both of these unrelated but similar symptom pathogens).

Please read both sections/articles in FULL for a better understanding of these common pathogens.
With Columnaris it is important to learn the often important affect stress has in outbreaks as well as the importance positive mineral ions and the role these cations play in adhesion of Columnaris by reducing surface potential and repulsive forces (see the Minerals/Redox Section of "prevention" for a further explanation).

For Saprolegnia, in particular understanding the role of decaying organics, the lifecycle of Saprolegnia zoospores, and even pH play in prevention and treatment of the often very misunderstood Saprolegnia mold/fungi.
 * WHAT IS COLUMNARIS?*








*Columnaris (often referred to in the past as "cotton wool disease" or "cotton mouth disease")* is a warm water, gram negative _strictly aerobic_ and nonhalophilic (meaning they do not live in saltwater conditions) bacterium often appears like a fungus (or more correctly; Saprolegnia) however it is not a fungus, although many treatments for fungus are effective for mild cases of Columnaris (Flexibacteria), which is why Erythromycin is a strange choice of treatment as it is rarely effective for either Fungus of Columnaris (yet is often suggested, which really makes me scratch my head as to why these sites suggest this treatment). 
The picture above left is of fingerling Rainbow Trout displaying a characteristic white saddleback lesion caused by Columnaris bacterium & of a Rift Lake (Malawi) Cichlid displaying classic Columnaris symptoms after stress and injury often caused by an over-crowded cichlid tank








However do not confuse Columnaris with the spores of Saprolegnia the cotton wool ball with hair like growth structures seen on damaged fish. Without a microscope, Columnaris can look like Saprolegnia and is often treated as fungus, sometimes with poor results.
The best way to tell with the naked eye (using a magnifying glass) is the hair like growth structures of Saprolegnia/Fungus.
WITH a microscope, scrapings from a columnaris lesion then placed under a microscope will reveal long, thin, rod shaped motile bacteria. The bacterial clumps form microscopic columns or dome shaped masses, hence the name columnaris. 

Columnaris has similarities to Aeromonas bacterial infections in that both are opportunistic, however since Aeromonas is a facultative bacterium & often anaerobic it is more prevalent in a tank with high amounts of pollution, DOC and especially poor circulation. While Columnaris being *only* aerobic can occur in tanks with good filtration/circulation, however it is common in a tank with poor Redox/mineralization, overcrowding and stress (such as an aggressive fish tank where many inhabitants are constantly bullying others).
Unfortunately the above point is missed by many who often site dirty, stagnant, or otherwise poor water conditions as cause of Columnaris, but since Columnaris is _aerobic_, it simply _cannot_ thrive in poor water conditions that are low in oxygen as does.

In lieu of often unavailable scientific microscopic identification, the above point is often noteworthy in identifying aerobic Columnaris from often anaerobic Aeromonas.

Please read further for a better understanding of this bacterial disease as well as treatment and prevention (there is also a section about Fungus/ Saprolegnia as well)
​
 
* (Post was too long...please see next post)*


----------



## Coppermoon

*Identification (& Causes)*

• A white spot/wound in the body maybe 3/16 inch, that within a week the white area increases to a larger strip in size. 

• A white to grey cottony growth (that appears like a fungus) but it appears to be eating away the fish’ skin, as well appears the outside skin is eaten away down to the 'meat'. 


• Necrosis (premature death of cells and living tissue) of the fins which is accompanied by white, cotton-like accumulations of bacteria and detritus. Fin Rot is a common secondary problem of Columnaris (see the picture in the treatment section)
_(The picture to the left shows necrosis of the fins, please click the picture to enlarge)_


• Ulcerations on the skin that slowly or sometimes quickly result in major tissue (epidermis) loss.

• Sometimes the infection where Columnaris is present is a blackish to fleshy in color.

• A lesion that appears like a white/grey “Saddleback” near the dorsal fin (which leads to the other common name for this disease: “Saddleback Disease”.
As well the skin lesions will often appear white/gray colored with an edging of red, which will often change to ulcers caused by the bacteria decaying the underlying tissue.
_(The picture above/left shows white/gray fungus "like" skin lesions, please click the picture to enlarge)_

• In gills, Columnaris can cause disintegration of the gill filaments. As the disease progresses the gills can change from their natural color to a light or dark brown. Since it is difficult to absorb enough oxygen from the water using damaged gills, the fish will start breathing rapidly and the fish might also swim up to the surface gasping for air. 

• IMPORTANT; often Columnaris infections are present in well circulated, oxygenated tanks (unlike Aeromonas Infections which are often anaerobic and are much more common in tanks with poor circulation & high bio loads) since Columnaris is an aerobic bacterial pathogen (this despite claims of highly inaccurate, _*poorly researched*_ Wikipedia and other questionable articles!!).
Columnaris often results in wounds when stress is common in an aquarium or from handling, shipping or any other stress inducing factor for fish. So a diagnosis of a growing sore as Columnaris in a tank that has fish that are under constant harassment by other fish (common in many Lake Malawi Mbuna fish in injuries incurred).
_I want to make clear, since many web sites note that Columnaris is generally found in tanks with poor water quality, that this is an incorrect way to diagnose Columnaris since this pathogen is aerobic and can become pathogenic in otherwise well maintained tanks (as per water quality), yet has other stressors that allow for a Columnaris infection such as injury from harassment (often an anecdotal conclusion that a successful diagnosis/treatment was made when in reality the disease was Aeromonas for which often treatment methods are similar resulting in a false conclusion)._

In fact since Columnaris is _strictly_ aerobic, the addition of more aeration/circulation will do nothing to stop Columnaris other than to possibly help the fish fight this disease pathogen. 
Unfortunately this key point is so often missed, as this totally incorrect statement from a popular web site shows:
_ “Columnaris reproduces poorly in the presence of oxygen in the water, so keeping the water's oxygen content up by creating a current can help prevent Columnaris”_ _WRONG!_

• Sores, wounds, or infections that grow even while under treatment of gram positive medications such as Melafix or Erythromycin _may_ be an indicator of a Columnaris infection as well. Unfortunately Maracyn (which is Erythromycin) is incorrectly prescribed to treat Columnaris by many pet stores and even some misinformed websites that do not know that Columnaris is gram negative while Erythromycin is a gram positive antibiotic.

• Temperature Spikes or sustained high temperatures can often allow for a Columnaris infection to take hold in an otherwise healthy aquarium especially if other stressors are present such as injury, stress, age, etc. (in fact sudden increases in temperature is a common cause of a Columnaris outbreak in an aquarium or pond).
Columnaris thrives in temperatures above 80 F (I have observed 85-90 to be a range where Columnaris is most virulent). Temperatures in the 80s is more a factor in cold water fish such as Goldfish.

• Finally, since Columnaris is an opportunistic aerobic infection even a well maintained aquarium can suffer from a Columnaris infection with even a slight opportunity for infection (assuming this bacterial pathogen is present). A common portal for a Columnaris infection is simply an older and weaker fish. Old age allows many opportunistic infections to get a foothold in at least the fish in question.
This is important to note, since treating a fish that has his/her immunity and normal body functions in decline may often be futile. This does not mean it is not worth while attempting a cure, only that an aquarium keeper should not beat him or herself up over failure to cure a favorite fish that has been well cared for since bringing the fish home. I have seen this with Bettas in particular over the years since these popular and personable fish often win us over in our hearts, but have a short lifespan even with the best of care (this lifespan can vary depending upon whether kept in an aquarium or bowl)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]*Treatment Information:*


Besides the obvious first step of lowering stressors and improving water quality, additional salt is helpful too at a dose of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. 
In fact a study at the Alabama Agricultural Experimental Station, Auburn University  has shown increasing salt concentrations used with Channel catfish (_along with heat reduction to 75 F_) can treat Columnaris (Flexibacter) infections. This study flies in the face of anecdotal advice about not using salt with catfish.
See the chart to the above/left for the mortality rate of Catfish with Edwardsiella ictaluri (which is a similar gram negative rod bacteria to Columnaris) treated with salt at different levels, please click to enlarge.
_You can see from the diagram that the best results were achieved at a dose of 3000 milligrams per liter; based on the weight of salt this converts .67 teaspoons per liter or 2.54 teaspoons per gallon. This is Much more salt than many aquarists commonly believe a Catfish can tolerate_. Please keep in mind that this amount of salt is not meant for long term use.

A dip or bath in Mebromin, Potassium Permanganate , Methylene Blue (not to be confused with malachite green) has also helped speed cure in most instances for my clients fish (or my personal fish). 
In fact with many instances of Columnaris the Methylene Blue Bath (or the even more strong, but more carefully administered Potassium Permanganate bath) was the main factor of treatment that affected a cure as per many tests.
_See the picture above/left for a Betta also displaying secondary Fin Rot that literally was on "deaths door" (laying on the bottom with little response) that recovered with a treatment regimen of Methylene Blue and Kanamycin, please click to enlarge_

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]; 1 – 12** (Continued)
*[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


----------



## Coppermoon

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]With Methylene Blue or Potassium Permanganate I prepare a double strength bath and place the fish in this solution for 30 minutes). 
I strongly recommend this bath as a FIRST course of action. Please see this article for more about Baths:
 “Fish Baths, Dips, Direct Treatment Applications”

As well as the above noted baths, direct applications of Methylene Blue,  Hydrogen Peroxide or Diluted Potassium Permanganate to external areas of infection can help with recovery and may be your only chance to check the spread of a more serious infection of Columnaris

Many fish diseases, it should be noted, are caused by different bacterial or fungal pathogens that often exhibit similar symptoms, so identification of a specific bacterial or fungal pathogen is not often possible from mere visual inspection of the symptoms on the fish. 

By using broad-spectrum treatments such as a Furan Two &  Kanamycin combination against diseases with similar symptoms affecting fish, precise identification of specific bacterial or fungal pathogens causing the disease that often display similar symptoms may not be absolutely necessary.








Pimafix shows some promise as a natural treatment for _mild_ cases of Flexibacteria (I would not recommend it for more serious cases). Pimafix is effective for a broad range of bacterial and fungal diseases that typically afflict fish and other aquatic animals (especially gram negative). Fish diseases that may be treated in accordance with this product include bacterial fish diseases, such as fin and tail rot, mouth fungus (often caused by the bacterium Flavobacterium Columnaris); fungal fish diseases (such as those caused by microorganisms of the genera Saprolegnia and Achyle) and the like. 

Triple Sulfa  may also yield positive results for treatment of Columnaris if used early (although this is not as effective of a treatment for Columnaris as it used to be or as the Kanamycin/Nitrofurazone combination).
My professional use of Triple Sulfa has found that it is a good choice along with baths and some salt for mild to moderate infections and is rarely harsh on aquarium environments including plants.

Finally, there is much unfortunately posted in forums or websites about the use of Tetracycline or Oxytetracyline for the treatment of Columnaris however this is based on old research and misunderstanding of the large Tetracycline class of medications. 
Tetracycline is primarily gram positive while Columnaris is a gram negative rod bacteria (although Oxytetracycline is more broad spectrum than Tetracyline Hydrochloride, it is still primarily a gram positive treatment). 
This said Minocycline  is member of this class of Tetracycline antibiotics and many persons assume all antibiotics in this class are the same, which is not true. Minocycline (sometimes spelled Minocycline) is more gram negative than its cousins and has shown effectiveness for Columnaris. Maracyn 2 is a product that contains Minocycline.
That said, the Tetracyline family of antibiotics should *never* be your first choice of medication treatment, despite some misinformed information on the internet stating otherwise (please note that I make this statement based on researched medication facts as well as MUCH practical experience dating back to 1979). 

*Additional Treatments;*
I have other treatments I have used, especially to prevent reoccurrence once the fish are OK (such as “Medicated Wonder Shells”, which contain Acriflavin, which is active against flex bacteria in mild cases). I do NOT recommend Medicated Wonder Shells for a full blown infection of Columnaris.

Acriflavin and other ingredients in Medicated Wonder Shells are very effective for true fungus which make these a good choice for a true fungal infection (which are VERY rare in saltwater aquariums).

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]PREVENTION & FURTHER COLUMNARIS (Flexibacter) INFORMATION:









Flavobacterium columnare gained the nick name “Columnaris” because wet mounts of Flexibacter prepared from diseased fish appear as column-like, "haystack" colonies.

Columnaris (which is a gram negative aerobic bacterium) is often prevalent in systems with poor mineralization (see this article:  “Importance of Calcium, electrolytes and more in Aquariums”), crowded conditions (often in re-circulating systems), aggressive inhabitants, poor handling, poor Redox Balance, sudden temperature spikes, and often high bio loads (although high bio loads is more symptomatic of Aeromonas or Saprolegnia). 

Columnaris bacterium have caused problems for fish farmers for many years. It is not easy to control, and because the disease is related to stress, an effort to identify and correct the source of the problem is necessary to prevent excessive or chronic mortalities. Fish are particularly vulnerable to Columnaris following handling and transport, especially since Columnaris is opportunistic warm water pathogen that is often always present in the water (it simply needs an “opportunity” to become pathogenic).
Abrasion from nets, transport, crowding, aggression by tank mates, and adverse water quality conditions (such as lack of necessary electrolytes/minerals) create a situation which is very conducive to Columnaris outbreaks
With this in mind; lowering stress (such as removing an aggressive inhabitant), improving minerals/electrolytes, and keeping a clean well filtered aquarium are first steps in treating or preventing Columnaris.

*[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


----------



## Coppermoon

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Avant Garde]Parameters to Consider for Prevention and Treatment of Columnaris:

*Decrease Fish Load, Crowding Columnaris outbreaks have been shown in University studies to be prevalent in crowded, re-circulating systems, which is a reason I recommend against these types of systems even for fish stores.
This is also common in “African Cichlid” tanks or similar where there is constant stress due to constant battling for hierarchy. 

*Ammonia, nitrites; should be 0 ppm

*Nitrates (long term exposure of nitrates over 80 ppm can reduce resistance to disease, under 40 is better),

*Lower your temperature; under 75 F (24 C) (only during treatment)

*pH (depending upon fish kept) Stability is more important than the actual pH.

* KH: generally a KH of 50 + (what is best here depends upon fish kept). This is related to pH and maintains pH stability via adequate carbonates

*Positive Ionic Composition of the Water & GH: this is a little more complex than this article will deal with, however this is related to both the GH and Redox. In a nutshell MG++ (positive magnesium ions) and CA++ (positive calcium ions) play a part in adhesion of Columnaris by reducing surface potential and repulsive forces.
This is important, please read this article for further information: Aquarium Chemistry; GH, Calcium, Magnesium, Positive Mineral Ions/Cations.

*Redox Balance; although not generally a major concern for the average aquarist, but good to know when problems persist especially since newer research shows its importance in disease prevention. This is an important consideration for an aerobic bacterium such as Columnaris, since often other more obvious water parameters may be good while this one is not.

Redox balance is related to GH (although if all positively charges ions are lost from calcium and other minerals that make up GH, you can still have a higher GH of say 300 ppm and still have a poor Redox Balance). But the point I want to make is that websites such as Wikipedia and many others are dead wrong to imply that "The bacteria can persist in water for up to 32 days when the hardness is 50 ppm or more" is a causative factor for Columnaris. While Columnaris Bacterium certainly need these minerals, so do fish and to make the strange leap that therefore any GH over 50 can lead to Columnaris is simply bad science (not to mention proves a lack of practical experience on the part of authors of these articles). 
The fact is 50 ppm is a very low GH, even for many soft water fish and more importantly these minerals are essential for correct osmosregulation and a supplier of essential positive electrolytes necessary for fish immunity that Redox research has proven.
It is noteworthy that these mineral cations play an important role in adhesion of Columnaris by reducing surface potential and repulsive forces, so for an aquarium keeper to attempt to lower minerals and positive mineral ions is misguided at best.

*Consider ALL steps outlined in this article:  “A Healthy Aquarium; Disease Prevention”. The more steps you follow in this article (such as the use of a UV Sterilizer), the lower your chance of opportunistic disease outbreaks such as Columnaris (or Saprolegnia/Fungus)

For the previous stated water parameters, water changes are often very helpful (although watch cross contamination if you have more than one aquarium).

*Good filtration (two filters is always a good option), is very important for treatment and prevention. It is important to catch this disease early, as Flexibacter advances it attacks the internal organs making for more difficult treatment. Kanamycin is about the only antibiotic that will work at this time (unless you have access to Chloramphenicol). This said, circulation and dissolved oxygen do not play as big a role as with the diseases Aeromonas, Furunculosis, or Vibrio, since Columnaris is a aerobic bacterium that needs oxygen while these others are anaerobic meaning they do best in environments without oxygen.

Please note that Anabantids (such as Gourami and bettas) seem to be especially susceptible to this disease, which is good reason to practice good cleaning practices with these fish even though they have the ability to get oxygen from the air. Wonder Shells  are great to use in Betta bowls as they add needed electrolytes and calcium and improve water quality between cleanings.

For further reading about Columnaris, please read these outside resources/references:
*http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-11112004-113024/unrestricted/Farmer_thesis.pdf
*http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=409119&fy=2006
*http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/aquaculture/pdf/479bfs.pdf
*http://en.engormix.com/MA-aquaculture/articles/f-columnare-myxobolus-tilapiae-infection-t2134/p0.htm
*“Influence of water quality and temperature on adhesion of high and low virulence Flavobacterium columnare strains to isolated gill arches”, Decostere, A., Haesebrouck, F., Turnbull, J. F., (1999), Journal of Fish Diseases, 22:1*[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


----------



## Coppermoon

Roemgie said:


> Ok if that is what I ran into, would I be better off just throwing away my 5 gallon tank? I don't plan on using it and I was just going to continuously clean it over a course of several weeks.
> 
> But if its safer for me to just throw it all away than I will do that. Unfortunately I cannot carry the 5 gallon without spilling the water so I unplugged the heater and I'm waiting until some friends can help me get it to the bathroom.
> 
> Do you suggest that I add any chemicals or do anything in the mean time while it just sits there?


IF it is Mycos, dump the water outside where it can dry out. Dumping it down the drain can introduce it into the water system. Up until now, I was always a "flush them" person...now NOTHING goes into the sink/toilet/tub. I dump all my water outside, and plants/dead fish get triple bagged and thrown into the trash.

Safest way is to throw out everything and start completely over...if you can afford to. I would clean the tank out and just let it sit for a while if you think you would ever get fish again.


----------



## Coppermoon

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> OK, I'm still not seeing the pieces all fit together.....
> 
> Coppermoon and Basement Bettas have verified that their fish were infected with Mycobacteria. And it wasn't just blue fish. There were other colors involved.
> 
> However, Mycobacteriosis (all strains) is described as a 'wasting disease' in which it can take a long time (months) for a fish to die.
> 
> And the first post in this thread describes a fast-moving disease that targets blue bettas, killing within 12-24 hours, and with the specific symptoms of fin necropsy and swim bladder disorders. (Ie: an acute infection, not a wasting disease.)
> 
> My questions:
> 
> 1) Can a fish infected with Mycobacterial infection appear 'fine' until the final stages? And then death occurs quickly, as the internal organs fail?
> 
> 2) Can the Mycobacterial infection allow secondary infections to set in? And then it's these secondary infections kill the fish quickly?
> 
> 3) Why does the first post in this thread specifically mention BLUE bettas? What makes them different?
> 
> 4) And a question specifically to Coppermoon and Basement Bettas: Did the blue fish that were infected with Myco display any symptoms that were different from the other colors? (More fin discoloration, swim bladder issues, lethargy, etc?)
> 
> Thank you.


I know we have another thread about this subject, but I though I would reply to this.

The original male that had it was fine up until he dropsied.

All my other fish just mainly had fin rot that would not go away no matter what I did, then Convention Girl had the rot eat INTO her belly meat...fin rot doesn't do this...that is why it is called fin rot. That is when I started seeking professional help. Monkey Face had already passed by now (My first baby to die), but he was visually diagnosed with Columnaris (because that is what it looked like)..gray patches and all.

Lethargy was another later symptom. Little Blue had the fast gray stuff, and I do think all the meds are why he didn't die quickly.

The yellow girl had her face start rotting off, so I quickly killed her. The yellow male I spawned her too, also started showing signs, so he is also gone. I spawned yellow male with gold girl, so far she is not showing signs (these fish are QT in my 75g btw...no fish in, no fish out and I use the cleaner on my hands after I have had them in that tank). I want to watch the process of other fish that are exposed but not directly.


----------



## Kels

OMG i thought our fish that just die had fin rot but he look exactly like this poor fish and with in hours his whole tail was gray looked like burn paper by the next day he was gone. 

we were told to give him melafix but sadly it did nothing  my son was heart broken.


----------



## Coppermoon

Shadyr said:


> Melafix is actually pretty detrimental to bettas. It's based on tea tree oil, which can get in their labyrinth organ and cause them issues. It's also an antiseptic, so it's really for wounds.
> 
> That doesn't look like the issue. Just watch him carefully and if you are in doubt about a plant or decoration, take it out


I have to agree here. One of my males that went to the lab, had the same "tail bite" that I see on this guy. Just watch him, and if he gets worse, then put him down. There is really nothing that can be done for them, so as long as he seems happy, let him live. IF/when he gets worse, you will know it is time.

Clean/scrape/bleach, then let it set out in the sunlight for a week or more. After that time, it should be safe to use again. I am scared "crapless" (rated PG) of getting this again, so I am keeping everyone separate now. Just got a new HMDT male, and if/when I find a girl for him, neither of them will be spawned with another fish.


----------



## tealglove

I woke up this morning and the grey area doubled  









I had to leave to go to class for 2 hours and came back and he had passed away 

Should I do anything special when I clean the tank out? and should I dispose of the body in a specific way?


----------



## Coppermoon

((Heater)) I will always...from now on..."wash" my heaters from Tetra/Walmart in distilled vinegar. I lost 5 breeders to the small 2.5-5g heaters. Not sure what it was, but it made the water "white"...not really cloudy...but white. I sent one of the heaters back to Tetra and they tested it...nothing came back, and they reimbursed me for the lost fish, cost of 2 heaters and shipping. I went out and got another heater, washed it in vinegar, and don't have any problems. They keep the 2.5g at 78-80*F.

Mycos: I'd have to say that ANY abnormal loss of fins that DONT respond to clean water/salt/traditional meds...is most likely the Mycos. I will no longer try to treat any fish that don't respond to clean water with in 48 hours. I know that sounds harsh, but it is like having a dog kennel and having all the dogs bit by just one rescue with rabies...


----------



## norico

Coppermoon said:


> ((Heater)) I will always...from now on..."wash" my heaters from Tetra/Walmart in distilled vinegar. I lost 5 breeders to the small 2.5-5g heaters. Not sure what it was, but it made the water "white"...not really cloudy...but white. I sent one of the heaters back to Tetra and they tested it...nothing came back, and they reimbursed me for the lost fish, cost of 2 heaters and shipping. I went out and got another heater, washed it in vinegar, and don't have any problems. They keep the 2.5g at 78-80*F.
> 
> Mycos: I'd have to say that ANY abnormal loss of fins that DONT respond to clean water/salt/traditional meds...is most likely the Mycos. I will no longer try to treat any fish that don't respond to clean water with in 48 hours. I know that sounds harsh, but it is like having a dog kennel and having all the dogs bit by just one rescue with rabies...


My friend's fish also disease.
Is that same to what you said ?


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Hey Coppermoon, thanks for the great information on columnaris. I am setting up my sorority soon so it is good to know.

However, I have a few questions. Do you know if Jungle Clear Water might aide in treatment or possibly prevention? It contains PP and I successfully used it to rid my live plants of snails.

Also, does Kanaplex treat columnaris? I know that sororities are often lost to columnaris so if Kanaplex will not treat it well, I'd like to get a better medication to have on hand.

Thank you.


----------



## Naladari

There was a study in 09 on myco tuberculous.
Something about Benzothiazinones causing them to commit suicide or something.
There is a possibility that these could be the cure for at least your tanks.
Unfortunately I couldnt find much on the Benzothiazinones.
On google you can also find this http://drbroxmeyer.netfirms.com/001_JOURNAL_OF_INFECTIOUS_DISEASES.pdf

Ive also read that if you use a human tuberculous on fish there is a chance that the fish can survive the disease. Unfortunately I cannot find any sort of antibiotic that actually works on them.
The fact that this disease seems to be killing its host quickly leads me to believe that this bacteria is free living, the only other disease that I can compare it to is Naegleria Fowelri which is parasitic.

...thats all i got


----------



## AshPell

Hi, I've been reading a lot of the posts on this subject, and I'm very sorry to all who have lost bettas because of this disease. However, I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but I looked at the locations of the people who have seen this disease in their bettas, and most are from the Southern and Western parts of the US, and in Canada. Maybe the sick bettas are coming from breeders in these areas? Or maybe it's some other factor, like where their food shipments are coming from, the or the water/water systems in those particular areas, or a lot of other factors. 
I think it would be very useful for people who have seen this to include their location in the description; sometimes it is not in the bio next to their post.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

I know a couple of them got the infected fish from one particular breeder down in Texas.

However, with fish being constantly shipped all over the country and the world, we aren't safe just because you live in PA and I live in NE.

Edit: I have also found that there are more breeders down in Texas for some reason (probably because it's warmer and I think some have outdoor tanks lol). Breeders are more likely to see it in their tanks because they handle such a large number of fish. I only have 8 bettas, vs the thousands that a lot of breeders have at any given time. I don't know a single breeder here in NE - I know of quite a few in Texas, some in Canada and one in Arkansas (Previously MO).


----------



## Artemis

Yes I can vouch that Texas would be a great place for outdoor tanks. Only heaters in winter in some places. Mosquito larvae and algae would be rampant. The only problem would be birds but herons wouldn't bother much with tiny fish and netting would stop it.

A question would be if a 100% water change, gravel change, filter changed, heater changed, and tank change was done and maybe cutting off the infected tail portion, would it revive the fish?

Obviously fin removal is drastic measures but it would grow back, cause minimum to no pain, and potentially keep the fish alive. 

My guess is it is genetic.


----------



## AshPell

Sorry, I want to clear something up. Just so there isn't any misunderstanding, I was not implying that betta owners in the Northeast are safe from the disease. I just think that there may be some sort of correlation between the location and the number of outbreaks. It could be a biological factor, such as the climate or water supply, that is specific to those areas. It could be that bettas in those areas are bred outdoors, but wild bettas are outside all the time, so it's not like it's unnatural.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

I don't think it's the location, though. I just think that there are more breeders in those areas. And Canada, of course, is an entire country, and they don't have outdoor tanks, obviously.

And I don't think there's any possible way to "revive" a fish from this. I know that cutting off infected portions of tails have worked for some people with fin rot, but this isn't fin rot. This is a bacteria that affect more than just the tail. Mycos causes lesions around the head area as well as pretty much every other symptom you could think of depending on the case. Plus, I do believe that their tails are similar to dogs nails - they don't feel it until you get too close to their body.

Also, this progresses so quickly that you would likely have to catch it right at the very beginning to have time to do that. They rarely live longer than 24 hours. You could go to sleep one night and notice that their fins are nearly nonexistent by the time you wake up.



Edit: I'm just going to compare it to population - you'll see more reported cases of cancer in states with a bigger population because there are more people. Like, I'm pretty sure that the population of New York CITY is like 4 times the population of the entire state of Nebraska. Anyways, with more breeders down in more populated parts of the country, you've got a higher population of domesticated fish.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

AshPell - 

The disease in question has been positively identified as a Mycobacterial infection. (Coppermoon and Basement Bettas had their fish have verified, via laboratory analysis, that their fish were infected with _Mycobacteria_ sp) 

The disease does not affect only blue fish. Other colors are affected, too. However, it is possible that something about blue genetics makes this color especially prone to the effects. 

It also is not location-specific. Mycobacterial infection of fish is, unfortunately, a world-wide problem. For more information, here is an excellent article about the disease. https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/ 

Mycobacterial infection causes a 'wasting disease' in which it can take a long time for a fish to die, and results in a variety of symptoms. The result is that it can be difficult to identify the specific cause of death. 

Unfortunately, the only way to determine that a fish has a Mycobacterial infection is via lab analysis after death.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Artemis - 

The infected fins, unfortunately, occur very late in the process. From what I've read, the disease (Mycobacterial infection) affects the internal organs first. By the time the fins turn gray/black, the fish is close to death.

This article has a lot of good information regarding the disease: Mycobacterial Infections of Fish


----------



## Chevko

With your saying that they're close to death, is there anything recommended to try to counteract it? It's a bacterial infection - are there any super-strength anti-bacterial medications we could try?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Chevko - 

Unfortunately not. Mycobacteria is highly resistant to medications and antibiotics. The bacteria has a waxy coating that protects it. It can even survive in distilled water, or on hard surfaces (such as countertops) for quite awhile.

From the article:
_"Mycobacterial infections of all fish should be considered non-treatable. Although there are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may resolve temporarily but often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued."_
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/

Here is some additional info from the article that may be of interest:

_"All fish are susceptible to mycobacteriosis, though some species seem to be at greater risk than others. The disease has been reported in a broad range of fish species from freshwater, marine and brackish water environments.....

Mycobacterium causes a chronic disease, usually characterized by wasting. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition and also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. Occasionally, deep hemorrhagic skin lesions will be seen in addition to the more common superficial lesions.....

There is no effective treatment for infected fish, so prevention through the use of quarantine and disinfection protocols is critically important.
Populations of fish that harbor the infection are most often euthanized and the system they were housed in disinfected with appropriate agents. Currently, there are no non-lethal tests for screening fish for mycobacterial
diseases....

Mycobacteriosis is typically a chronic and progressive disease and should be suspected when there is weight loss or loss of condition, especially when accompanied by scale loss, ulcers, or non-specific hemorrhagic lesions....

Further, Mycobacteria spp. have been isolated from tissue of clinically normal fish in the absence of obvious disease or pathology...."_
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/


----------



## Linkus

This sounds similar to what my betta has now.


----------



## Alcemistnv

I'm sorry, but I skimmed a bit, read through the fighting and such.

So this is mycobacterium?

If so, is it possible to do a huge sticky or something to alert people?
Especially if it is known, and that way the breeders can do soemthing about it?
I've had to resort myself from not buying any blue bettas because of this disease, and I want people to know that something like this exists.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Mycos comes in different strains and affects more than just blue fish.

Basement Bettas posted a thread called Mycobacterium with lots of good info but I'm pretty sure it wasn't stickied.


----------



## Alcemistnv

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Mycos comes in different strains and affects more than just blue fish.
> 
> Basement Bettas posted a thread called Mycobacterium with lots of good info but I'm pretty sure it wasn't stickied.


I feel like something should definitely be done, because all we have is this, and most people aren't going to read through all these pages :/


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Look up that thread in advanced search. Its on here somewhere.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Here is a link to Basement Bettas' Mycobacteria thread: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=125895


----------



## Sakura8

I even edited out a lot of posts on this thread to make it shorter. -___-


----------



## Alcemistnv

Sakura8 said:


> I even edited out a lot of posts on this thread to make it shorter. -___-


sorry D:


----------



## Taeanna

I would also suggest that anyone who has seen the disease or knows of anyone in their area that has seen the disease use sterilized gloves when cleaning or in any way putting their hands in their tank water. Each tank gets new gloves (if they are large separated tanks/you are a breeder with many tanks and are afraid of getting mass outbreaks).

The reason being that all animals have 'natural flora'= bacteria that lives on and in us, helping us to break down food and preventing us from falling ill. This strain may very well have been collected from the community/local water and brought home with their owners.


----------



## Artemis

This effects more blue bettas correct? It is possible that a gene that causes blue has morphed through constant breeding into a) causing the problem b) weakening the defense system and allowing the bacteria to get a hold.


----------



## nel3

can myco show itself like bumps near the eye? mines a blue/black vt with red wash. the bump has been there for 2-3 months, could've been longer if i noticed ti earlier.


----------



## Taeanna

It is possible.
An human parrallel condition springs to mind of sickle cell disease. It is prevalent in people of african origin characterized by their red blood cells turning into half moon shapes and getting jammed in the capillaries, sometimes causing blockages. HOWEVER those with sickle cell are far less likely to come down with the severe cases of malaria and likely saving their lives. Trading in one weakness for another.


----------



## nel3

Taeanna said:


> It is possible.
> An human parrallel condition springs to mind of sickle cell disease. It is prevalent in people of african origin characterized by their red blood cells turning into half moon shapes and getting jammed in the capillaries, sometimes causing blockages. HOWEVER those with sickle cell are far less likely to come down with the severe cases of malaria and likely saving their lives. Trading in one weakness for another.


thank you for the reply, unfortunately the seriousness of Myco is concerning as i dont know the actual cause/sickness for his flopping atm.

ive just isolated him from his 5g divided (no epsom salt added atm), his other cellmates 1 nerite and a DeT on the other side seem fine. its only within the last 12hrs since hes "sulking" on the bottom only moving to flop to leave his good eye looking upwards.


----------



## zebra3

*What actualy killed my fish?*

Instead of making a separate thread about it I'll just make a quick post here.

My betta recently died. He suddenly had no energy to move and just laid down and towards the end was basically just an unmoving but breathing corpse. This took about two days. The odd thing is- I was taking good care of him. He had 3 gallons to himself, 2 meals a day, weekly 50% water changes (I don't like to do more than that, bettas don't have a heavy bio-load and too many changes actually shocks them in my experience.) and I always added dechlorinator to the water change. So I really don't know what got him. His under head area got greyish the second day.
Anyone have experience with that? 

I want to get another one in a month after I re-aquascape (live plants, small tank, but I work it) but if there was something I missed let me know. I also will be adding cherry shrimp before I get a betta. I know he will eat the young ones, but if I get a few large one's started in there and he doesn't peck their eyes out I'll be quite happy.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Sometimes they get sick with even the best care. I also agree with you on less water changes but clean water is more important. But in a three gallon, 2 weekly changes are recommended so I'd either up water changes or be 100% sure the tank (if it has a filter) and the live plants are keeping the ammonia and nitrites at 0 between water changes.

There's a lot of factors and I'd need exact details to tell you the things I believe MAY have been wrong, but a few of them are temperature (is his temp 78-80 AND stable?), food type (Omega One and NLS are good brands), and possibly age and genetics. I had a girl pass away from a temp fluctuation caused by a 1 hour power outage and came to the conclusion that her genetics must not have been as strong because none of my other 4 fish fell ill.

I hope this helps?


----------



## zebra3

Temperature fluctuations are unfortunately a fact of life where I am. The room constantly changes. I sprung for a real nice heater, and it does the job. The temperature never drops below 76-77, though it sometimes got up to 82-83. I thought the highs wouldn't hurt him as much as the lows.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Sudden temperature fluctuations can easily cause them to get sick. If they are more gradual fluctuations, they aren't as bad.

I didn't used to think too much about fluctuations until that one hour power outage. My girl died three days after and the power was only out for an hour and I do believe the temp only dropped 2-3 degrees then warmed back up in about 2 hours. It was enough to make her sick - a few hours after she was acting a little "off" and by the next day, her scales were beginning to pinecone. The stronger their genetics and the better care they have, the less likely it is for them to get sick like that. However, all my fish had the same care and she was the only one of five who got sick so I assumed her genetics were not as strong.

If your temp fluctuates slowly, it won't be as big a deal.


----------



## zebra3

at night it does go down a couple degrees in the winter months. During summer, I have no idea what will happen.


----------



## BETTACHKALOVE

I think if it gradual temperature change like for example in the summer it should not stress them out. I have 8 bettas and of course in the summer time the temp fluctuate +-2-3 * from the morning to night and i never had problem with my bettas. Of course you don't want sudden big temperature change-it would be the problem. And if your 3 gall don't have filter you need to do more water changes then 50% a week. If it with out filter you better go with 2-50% and 1-100% water changes. If you acclimate betta properly he should not be stressed. And also don't be heard on yourself , unfortunately bettas get sick as much as we get sick no matter how right /good you care about them. You can have 2 betta in the same tank and one will live 4 years , another one in the same tank can get sick in a year. But definitely water changes is main factor that keep them healthy. Good luck with new betta. When you go to the store make sure you check betta for any symptoms of the sickness before you buy him.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

General rule is that you don't want a temp change larger than 1 degree in an hour or 5 degrees in 24 hours.

However, I will say that constant temp changes can be detrimental still and may slowly decrease their immune systems but if you take very good care of them and they don't have bad genetics, they're less likely to get sick.

I would avoid temp variations as much as possible even if it doesn't seem to affect them and that may just be because I lost my favorite girl because of a temp swing. If it gets cooler at night I would maybe wrap the tank in a towel of some sort to try to make the temperature drop a little slower.

Keep in mind that the tank lights might also have something to do with temp drops at night.


----------



## zebra3

Aside from leaving the light on all night, is there anything else I can do to help with the fluctuation during winter? Perhaps if I kept the daytime temp closer to 77 than 80, it would help. Also, I have no idea what will happen during the summer months.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Don't leave the lights on 24/7. It will stress them out because they sleep at night and have no eyelids. I would try to maybe aerate the tank a little more? I have a hood that half of it opens up in the front and I would open it and cover that part with craft mesh. Does that make sense?

One thing you could do is either wrap the tank when it gets colder, keep your house a consistent temp, or at night, close the lid and keep it aerated during the day when the lights turn on. I haven't tried that but I would see if it works for you.

Also keep the temp between 78-80.


----------



## zebra3

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Don't leave the lights on 24/7. It will stress them out because they sleep at night and have no eyelids. I would try to maybe aerate the tank a little more? I have a hood that half of it opens up in the front and I would open it and cover that part with craft mesh. Does that make sense?
> 
> One thing you could do is either wrap the tank when it gets colder, keep your house a consistent temp, or at night, close the lid and keep it aerated during the day when the lights turn on. I haven't tried that but I would see if it works for you.
> 
> Also keep the temp between 78-80.


The tank has a filter. It's always on. There is a flap on top. I always keep it closed. Heat would escape if I opened it. I once had a betta when I was a kid live for at least 5 years, and I kept it in a 1 gallon. Maybe my previous one just had poor genetics.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

I'm just saying you could crack the lid to balance out the heat that the light puts off and close it when you turn the lights off at night to make up for it. Does that make sense?

I also agree that sometimes they just get sick even in perfect care and I don't think its your fault.


----------



## Little Leaf

Are there any videos of a fish with this disease?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Little Leaf - Are you asking if there are videos of a fish with Myco? There aren't any 'significant' symptoms that would show up in a video.

The disease affects the internal organs first, so there are no visible symptoms. The fish might be a little lethargic. It may be slightly bloated..... 

As the 'end' approaches, it may develop skin lesions. It may develop additional bloating, or "dropsy" type symptoms. At the very end, its fins may turn gray or black. But not all fish will have the same symptoms. And even if the symptoms are displayed, they may not be very noticeable. (For example, the article I read said that some fish develop skin lesions, but others do not.)

(P.S. I don't think that either King Dedede or Rose have this. I think they are just suffering from being in an overcrowded tank. I know that your parents won't let you move the fish, so this is not your fault. But I think their symptoms are caused by the stress of being in that tank. I don't think they have Myco.)


----------



## bettafishgirl

I think Pericles died of this...I wish I knew of this before I disposed of him! I dismissed it as old age, and I could have brought I to my mother (retired vet tech and works in a petsmart) 

Having my mother to let me in on a few things, and I still have equipment in my attic, I think I just may try to analyze this illness myself... maybe it is a highly adapted form of finrot? Maybe it is an odd combination of dropsy, finrot and liver fail? I may be caused from lack of room or over heated water... for every illness there has to be a cause that makes then disease start. 

So we have infant established that the illness is contagious and moves quickly through the body. Does it effect the organs, or the very cells of this fish? Is it only found in Bettas and if not, is it found in autotrophs and amphibians?

So many inquiries...


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

bettafishgirl said:


> I think Pericles died of this...I wish I knew of this before I disposed of him! I dismissed it as old age, and I could have brought I to my mother (retired vet tech and works in a petsmart)
> 
> Having my mother to let me in on a few things, and I still have equipment in my attic, I think I just may try to analyze this illness myself... maybe it is a highly adapted form of finrot? Maybe it is an odd combination of dropsy, finrot and liver fail? I may be caused from lack of room or over heated water... for every illness there has to be a cause that makes then disease start.
> 
> So we have infant established that the illness is contagious and moves quickly through the body. Does it effect the organs, or the very cells of this fish? Is it only found in Bettas and if not, is it found in autotrophs and amphibians?
> 
> So many inquiries...


Its been identified as mycobacteria.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

bettafishgirl - As AyalaCookieJar said, it has been definitively identified as a Mycobacterial infection. Two breeders on this forum, Basement Bettas and Coppermoon, sent their fish to a lab for analysis. They posted the lab's results earlier in this thread. You can search through the thread and read their posts. They provide a lot of information regarding the disease. 

If you would like more information about Mycobacteriosis, there is an excellent article available online: Mycobacterial Infections in Fish.


----------



## bettafishgirl

So it's been identified? Excellent! So when a fish gets this, how do we cure it? Or do we even know this yet.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Bettafish - 

I suggest you read Coppermoon's and Betta Basement's posts (earlier in this thread) regarding Mycobacteria. The posts provide a lot of information. 

Basement Betta also started another thread about Mycobacteria. You can view it by clicking here.

Full information, including the fact that there is no "cure," is described in this excellent article, which available online: Mycobacterial Infections in Fish.


----------



## Little Leaf

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Little Leaf - Are you asking if there are videos of a fish with Myco? There aren't any 'significant' symptoms that would show up in a video.
> 
> The disease affects the internal organs first, so there are no visible symptoms. The fish might be a little lethargic. It may be slightly bloated.....
> 
> As the 'end' approaches, it may develop skin lesions. It may develop additional bloating, or "dropsy" type symptoms. At the very end, its fins may turn gray or black. But not all fish will have the same symptoms. And even if the symptoms are displayed, they may not be very noticeable. (For example, the article I read said that some fish develop skin lesions, but others do not.)
> 
> (P.S. I don't think that either King Dedede or Rose have this. I think they are just suffering from being in an overcrowded tank. I know that your parents won't let you move the fish, so this is not your fault. But I think their symptoms are caused by the stress of being in that tank. I don't think they have Myco.)


What's a lesion? also, I was asking for the video because I wanted to see how the swim bladder was affected (as if it's sliding or stuck on the surface)


----------



## Scottyhorse

Okay, I have a suggestion and a question mixed into one. I've read every page of this. And I am wondering, can this live in saltwater? I know the saltwater fish keepers will dip fish in freshwater to kill bacteria and such. If I read correctly, I read that almost all fish carry this, but it stays dormant? Well what if we dipped all new fish in saltwater, and cleaned all the equipment in saltwater? Not sure if this would work or not, but if it would I would do it. I have one betta right now who is black, red and blue. (Crowntail) I would like to get another betta or two, but I would like to learn more about this before I buy anything else. 

Also, should we stop buying bettas at petsmart/petco and buy from Thai breeders? I would like to avoid this as much as possible. I probably won't buy anymore blue bettas.


----------



## Coppermoon

So far it is not curable. I know a breeder that also has a background in microbiology is actually looking to find a cure...or at least something to stop the spread early on.

Salt will not kill it. It has a thick waxy cell wall like human TB (which is probably why it is called Fish TB...but per the lab I used...it is NOT TB).


----------



## Scottyhorse

So this can live in marine conditions? Wow.


----------



## JefferyAndMilo

Is this only affecting blue males or can it be in all the colors?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Mycobacteria infects many species of fish, not just bettas. It affects all colors of bettas.

Here is a good article: Mycobacterial Infections in Fish https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/.../231/


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

There's also different strains. Not all fish with Mycos even develop this rapid fin deterioration. There's so many different symptoms of this disease that its really almost impossible to identify unless the bodies are sent in for testing.

I'll also point out that there must be something else that can cause these symptoms because I have seen two members here with fish whose fins deteriorated rapidly like this and they actually fully recovered and their fins grew back completely.

Mycos has no cure so I highly doubt that that was caused by it. I know the one fish developed it right after a water change so it might've been an issue with the water?

But then again, Mycos is also a wasting disease that develops over a long period of time and can be carried by a fish for years before killing them.


----------



## ddicioccio

*Fish turning Black*

I had this happen to one on my guys. I had a really bad run of bad luck buying what appeared to be healthy Betta's, only to have them stop eating, and eventually die. Back to the point I didn't see this article until after I had disposed of the one who's head turned Black.
My wife has a red one that is starting to show signs, very lethargic, and
he is starting to turn black on top of his head. If he does die, what should
I do about getting him be checked for this disease? How should I package
him, and where should I send him?

Thanks


----------



## Coppermoon

AyalaCookiejar said:


> There's also different strains. Not all fish with Mycos even develop this rapid fin deterioration. There's so many different symptoms of this disease that its really almost impossible to identify unless the bodies are sent in for testing.
> 
> I'll also point out that there must be something else that can cause these symptoms because I have seen two members here with fish whose fins deteriorated rapidly like this and they actually fully recovered and their fins grew back completely.
> 
> Mycos has no cure so I highly doubt that that was caused by it. I know the one fish developed it right after a water change so it might've been an issue with the water?
> 
> But then again, Mycos is also a wasting disease that develops over a long period of time and can be carried by a fish for years before killing them.


I am not posting this to argue, so let me tell you what my fish did up to they day they died. I had this crap in my fish room since October 2010. They ate, they bred, they got fin rot and then columnaris (treated for finrot/columnaris when the gray patches developed), they pineconed, they either died, or I put down. They were still eating even when pineconed, although I didn't feed them nearly as much. I know dropsy is a symptom, so I was attempting every treatment (giving time to see if they were working) that I could find online for this aggressive fin rot I was having.

I sent 5 very healthy fish to the lab. What was wrong with them: one was missing a tail, one was missing a dorsal, one was just starting with the fin rot, one was a very ragged dt, one had no face. These fish were about 9 months old. I had to starve them to clean their guts out for the shipping. Faceless one was dead, so he didn't get examined. The rest arrived happy and "healthy". Each of the 4 living was riddled with the granulomias (not sure how to spell it, and sp ck doesn't know).

I say treat a fish for fin rot if THAT is what is presents. Treat it for Columnaris if that is what it presents. BUT after a 7-10 days, if there is no improvement OR the fish develops it again shortly after removing from medication....or the fish is worse during and after treatment....then assume it is mycos and destroy the fish......or let it live out it's life...up to the owner. I choose to destroy. I put my dog down after I found out he had cancer. I have one with "fin rot"...one of his brothers came to me with broken rays....he has 4 more days to improve or he is a gonner. I WONT go through this again. HE is the last one I mess with before I leave my fish room, and I immediately go wash my hands in almost scalding water and antibacterial soap. 

I don't want everyone to think that their fish have mycos, but BE AWARE of your fish. Don't cross contaminate. Keep things clean.


----------



## jadaBlu

I don't believe that Thai breeders will not give you myco bacteria. I have been told some pet fish start off shipping from Thailand. My local petco gets fish from San diego (I had the bill in my hand) that individual is probably is just a transhipper. Unfortunately, I didn't l know at the time to take down the name. I asked where they came from because I read fishkeepers can get this and I did not yet know what it did to fish to scale I do now. I reas this:

*Prevention:

*There is not a 100% proven way to prevent Aquarium Fish Tuberculosis (as with most pathogens), however based on my own observations going back to 1977 (working at a Pet Store Fish department and then my aquarium maintenance company), I definitely noticed patterns. Emails from customers and questions I see asked in forums and elsewhere have added to this same pattern.

One pattern is what I noted earlier and that is Bettas and Gouramis have a higher incidence of both suspected and proven cases of _Mycobacterium marinum_ Tuberculosis infections.
I also noted that certain vendors (wholesale suppliers) would have a higher incidence of TB infected fish, so avoiding the purchase of fish from places that you have suspected TB on numerous occasions may also be helpful; _this said, do NOT write off a retailer or vendor based on 1 or 2 suspicions of Fish TB, as it may have been another disease pathogen, as well frankly no vendor/retailer is perfect!_.

Also be careful with Betta shows or similar, as I believe that this is both a major stressor AND infection point. As for procedure you can do to prevent Fish TB infections; there are many.
The most obvious is as stress free an aquatic environment as possible since stress due to many factors seems to be a major factor based on my work and research. This includes stress from water conditions and tank mates.
Changing water regularly, maintaining a stable pH & KH, near 0 ammonia (NH3) and nitrites, a balanced Redox and ESSENTIAL aquarium positive mineral ions.

It came from here: http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2012/04/tb-in-fish-mycobacterium-tuberculosis.html

There are many good articles on fish disease with some good advice although abiet I have spotted a few errors like adding salt to a bath for fish with dropsy. Salt is the last thing any being with likely kidney disease is needing.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Ddicioccio:

Here are links to two University veterinary labs that offer testing: 
University of Florida: http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/services_available.htm
University of Arizona: http://cals.arizona.edu/vdl/index.php?ID=19
You may want to find a university veterinary college close to your home, and contact them. This would allow you to get samples there quickly, before they degrade.

The method of preservation is going to depend on the testing that you want done....

Ideally, you'd send the sick fish (while still alive) to the lab for testing. This way, they can examine the tissues AND obtain bacterial cultures. This is what the University of Florida recommends: link is here. 

If you can't send the live fish, then, according to the Merck Veterinary Manual. Link is here.: 
 If you want tissues or internal organs examined: Preserve in a way to keep the tissues or organs intact. --> Put in formalin, refrigerate, ships ASAP. Test samples as soon as possible, since they'll degrade over time. (Do NOT freeze, since this can damage tissues/organs.)
 If you want to have a bacterial culture done: Preserve in a way to keep the bacteria viable (alive). --> Refrigerate only, and ship ASAP. Do not freeze or use preservatives, since this can kill some bacteria. 

Here is a good summary from the University of Arizona. Link is here.: 
_"Proper selection and preservation of samples for bacteriologic analysis is essential for accurate and efficient diagnosis. Postmortem autolysis of tissues is the most common cause of interference with bacteriologic diagnosis. Tissues should be very fresh, collected aseptically and immediately refrigerated, and sent by overnight transport. When prompt submission is not possible, freezing is acceptable for most types of bacteriologic tests, although they are often unsuitable for other microbiologic or pathologic testing. A second cause of interference is collection of samples too late in the course of the disease or after the initiation of antibiotic therapy. Submit generous samples of tissue, exudates, or feces. Avoid the use of swabs when fresh tissues or exudates are available. The prompt collection of specimens with minimal exposure to air is particularly important for anaerobic culture. 

Tissue samples should be submitted in separate containers and properly identified. Adequate refrigeration in insulated containers with sufficient numbers of ice packs is essential for shipping specimens."_


----------



## nmmuller

Hi,
I'm new to this site but I was wondering if anyone could help me with my betta, barnabus. He seems to be in good health (swims around and eats like crazy) but he just gained this huge white patch over his eye and mouth area. Assuming that it was a fungal infection, I treated his 1 gallon tank with "bettafix." The condition of the spot hasn't changed and I was wondering if he's even sick at all!!

Thanks in advance!!

http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?a...ictureid=54554
http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?a...ictureid=54546


----------



## Coppermoon

nmmuller said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to this site but I was wondering if anyone could help me with my betta, barnabus. He seems to be in good health (swims around and eats like crazy) but he just gained this huge white patch over his eye and mouth area. Assuming that it was a fungal infection, I treated his 1 gallon tank with "bettafix." The condition of the spot hasn't changed and I was wondering if he's even sick at all!!
> 
> Thanks in advance!!
> 
> http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?a...ictureid=54554
> http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?a...ictureid=54546


Those are links to my profile...or at least that is what comes up...lol.

Don't use bettafix...it is oil based and actually can harm betta in the long run. Fungus cure or fungus rid are good choices if it is a true fungus.

Follow the full treatment on the meds exactly.

Good luck 

Lori


----------



## crystalicethorn

My white an blue betta's fins are thinning out and then ripping. It's been like that for around 2 days. I changed his water and at least he is eating now but i dont know whats going on! The fins are left kinda skeleton like because only a few strands of the thicker areas remain, his dorsal fin is almost completely destroyed and if his tail shreds any more he might not be able to swim anymore. 

Do you think it could be this? Its to fast acting to be fin rot


----------



## ShadyLex

I think my brand new Dragonscale Crowntail betta got this.

I had just bought him 2 days ago and when I checked him out at the store he had no signs of disease or illness. His fins were all spread out, shy to my finger but I was kind of expecting that. I bought him and moved him to my tank where he swam around just fine. I left him alone for the night and day 2 comes. Day 2 I was out for 3 hours with family for a time being and when I returned I found this black thing had spread all over the bottom of his body. I had thought it was a burn as he was sitting next to the heater and moved him into his cup to get a picture.

This was him on day 1: http://s749.photobucket.com/user/St...a3-4f7f-939f-417300844459.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Day 2: http://s749.photobucket.com/user/Star_Trish/media/CIMG2116.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

I sat in my room to watch him and by the end of the night it had nearly spread to the rest of his body. He was having trouble breathing and was laying on his side on the bottom of the tank. This morning I found him dead.

EDIT: Here is a picture of his body: http://s749.photobucket.com/user/Star_Trish/media/CIMG2117.jpg.html


----------



## KohakuRiver

I saw a fish at my local PetSmart that definitely had this. Large chunks of his fins were black, it looked exactly like the photo. Should I leave this be or should I do something?


----------



## Taeanna

Best to warn them. Bacterial infections can spread and spread fast. In fact their entire stock might be contaminated if they simply shared a pump.

If they aren't warned they will simply get in new fish. They need to sterilize their stuff and fast or more shipments of fish will die.


----------



## KohakuRiver

Okay, I'll let them know next time I go there.


----------



## KohakuRiver

I told them about it. I gave them the fish, who was dead on the shelf, to an employee and explained to her what I knew. I don't know if they will listen to me, but I'm not buying any bettas from there until I observe their fish for a while.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

If anything else, I'd explain to them that mycobacteria can be spread to humans and any employee sticking his or her hands in the tanks (or any customer buying the fish, taking them home, and then sticking their hands in the tank) are at risk. It's sad but true that many don't care about the life of the fish until you tell them that they are in danger, too.

Which reminds me... Is this a strain that humans can get? Either way, tell them that mycobacteria can affect humans and that it's the same type of bacteria that causes tuberculosis. That should scare them straight.


----------



## KohakuRiver

I will do that if I see any more fish with the disease in the store. I completely agree that the lives of the fish mean little to the employees in this particular store.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

The Mycobacteria that infects fish can affect humans. But it does NOT cause tuberculosis.

Tuberculosis is caused by _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_. This is a very specific strain of Mycobacteria.

The strains that are present in aquatic environments include _Mycobacterium marinum_, and several other types. They CAN cause problems in humans, such as skin infections that are VERY difficult to cure. (Do a google search on "Fish-handler's disease.") But they do not cause TB.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like that.

Mycobacterium causes both this and tuberculosis but TB is caused by a different strain. I guess I didn't really clarify, though.

I just think its a powerful statement you could make to try to get them to DO something about it, because they obviously don't care about the fish.


----------



## KohakuRiver

I considered commenting using the official 'contact us' on the website, but I'm not comfortable with the amount of info they require to do that... "First Name, Last Name, email, etc. I wish I was socially apt enough to relay the severity of the situation when I was there. I'm just worried that other fish will get infected and die, and possibly transmit the disease to other people like the little boy I talked to there that was getting a new betta.


----------



## Taeanna

Ayala I agree. The little information people have on infections is really incredible.

I cannot tell you the times I have had to explain that an antibiotic cannot cure a viral infection, or that prolonged use of antibiotics predisposes the person to catch worse and worse infections instead of decreases their chances (and breeds superstrains).

If scaring people by letting them believe facts like that is all that will work it will have to do for the time being. its certainly better than their fish dying in droves.

Also Kohaku you might want to think about contacting your local biological center and inform them you observed the outbreak signs in a local pet store. Having a scientists department descend on a major chain will make management sit up and take notice.


----------



## nehemiahludden

ok so my betta is swollen on both sides near his gills i have no idea what it is and i would really like to be able to treat him for it so that he will be able to live longer. i have had him for 6 moths and i i really like this little. i like him so much that i named him Mr. Whiskers. he is in a 10 gallon tank with a pleco zebra fish and a albino rainbow shark. i have uploaded this pic but i have 2 more that i am going to give for you to look at.


----------



## nehemiahludden

pic number 2


----------



## nehemiahludden

pic 3


----------



## nehemiahludden

pic 4


----------



## nehemiahludden

what do i do about this?


----------



## KohakuRiver

He looks constipated, but I've never had this problem and can't be sure. The first thing you should do is to start a new thread, because that is not what this thread is about. Just go to 'Betta Fish Diseases and Emergencies' and click "New Thread" on the right side of the screen. The second thing you should do is to fill out as much of this as you can and post it on that thread along with the pictures.

Housing 
What size is your tank?
What temperature is your tank?
Does your tank have a filter?
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
Is your tank heated?
What tank mates does your betta fish live with?

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
How often do you feed your betta fish?

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
When did you start noticing the symptoms?
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?
Does your fish have any history of being ill?
How old is your fish (approximately)?


----------



## nehemiahludden

how do i fix his constipation? what do i give him for it?


----------



## KohakuRiver

Start a different thread for this, this thread is about something different.


----------



## Blues Human

*I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I'll post just in case.*

I just assumed that my baby died of a fungal/bacterial infection that we couldn't fight anymore. But I figure I should post what happened just in case. I don't know if it's relevant, but I'll post just in case. My little Blue (a blue veiltail) was bought at Parrots of the World in Rockville Centre, Long Island, New York. I don't know how old he was when we got him but he still had those big black baby fish eyes and was much smaller than he was when he died. 
I had him for two years. When we brought him home, he was in a tiny little bowl that they sell them in. I got him a one gallon tank pretty quickly, but I still didn't know enough about betta fish to get him a heater until a few months later. I did know to change the water frequently and not use soaps or detergents and very basic things like that.
After a few months I noticed his eyes had started to protrude bilaterally. I used some basic fish meds like Betta Fix and that seemed to help. He would occasionally get little white patches, but the water-treatment antibiotics seemed to keep it at bay.
Then his fins started becoming affected. For the last year of his two year life I was constantly battling a condition that was deteriorating his fins from the edges, causing them to turn white at the edges and working its way towards his tail. Then the while infection got to his tail, but all the while he was still active and eating very well. I eventually moved on to more aggressive treatments like tetracycline, then erythromycin. The best I could do was keep the infection at bay for a while, but over time it kept getting worse.
Finally, after two years with me, my little friend stopped eating. I knew right away this was the end. No matter what had happened before, he always ate well, and begged for more. My little pal refused to eat and started hiding from me. He used to greet me whenever he saw me. I could be walking around the room and we'd both just be doing our own thing, but if I waved at him he would wiggle dance back at me. I loved him so much. It's been almost two months now and I'm still crying writing this.
The day he died, he was so pale and sick looking, I don't know if it's the kind of graying that you're talking about, but I figured I'd post it just in case. I don't know why, but for some reason I took pictures of him before I buried him. I'll include pictures of him alive that show the white infection when it had spread from his tail fins to his actual tail body plus ones of him after he died. The ones of him after his death may not be good quality because I was hysterical. I didn't even know why I was taking the pictures at the time, I just did it. 
I doubt it is the same thing, but I wanted to help if I could. If I had known about this site before he passed I would have preserved him for you just in case, but I didn't and I buried him.
I'm so sorry for everyone who's lost or is losing their beloved fish friends. I hope we can find a cure for this. 
PS: If anyone could tell me what happened to my Blue and what I should have done, I would really appreciate it. I never want my fish to suffer again when there's something I could have done. I've been trying to get better educated about proper betta care and learning about water quality and proper feeding and everything I possibly can for my new fish who I adopted from a Betta Rescue. I got her a couple of days ago and her abdomen is swollen, but I'll post about that in the proper area.


----------



## NickZac

I know of cases in which kanamycin + doxycycline for 30 days +B6 have had some success on other fish with TB, including some air-breathers…but IIRC most instances involved getting kanamycin inside of the fish by food and I believe as injection for some larger ones. Supposedly doxy is better absorbed than earlier tetracycline’s. But the speed here of onset is unbelievably fast and from what people have described, an antibiotic that does not immediately get into the bloodstream is going to be too slow.

Has anyone who has had this happen been able to try dosing with gentamicin or gentamicin + B6? I realize kanamycin or kanamycin+neomycin or kanamycin+doxy are more common, but to my understanding, gentamicin is quickly absorbed into the bloodstream directly through the gills and at a much quicker speed than most other medications used on fish, plus it is active against resistant mycobacteria + columnare if it so happens it is that. It isn't common due to the costs and higher toxicity, but to my understanding the absorption is so fast into the blood stream that not much dosing is required. Would that have the potential to make a difference? 

I have some…


----------



## Adonis Tetra

*I feel your pain*

I recently adopted a beautiful blue betta. Since he was so blue like the ocean, I named him Percy Jackson. I've owned betta fish before, and my last female fish Emily had passed from what I later learned to be columnaris. Although Emily passed in the same tank I put Percy in, I only rinsed it out assuming the bacteria had died in the past 6 months of the tank laying dormant. 
Within 2 days Percy showed signs of the disease. I removed him from the tank and gave him meds; however, this case of columnaris was different. Percy had dark patches of flesh that seemed to be eaten away exactly the way the photo posted shows. Within 5 days of adopting Percy he had passed. 
Percy Jackson was a healthy fish, I knew that. He had gained the Bactria from the tank that had somehow mutated in six months into something that killed a strong fish in 3 days flat. My assumption is when I used the meds on Emily, some of the Bactria died off and the stronger ones did not. When left alone the strong Bactria multiplied, creating a super version of columnaris. But then again what does a 16 year old who barely passed chemistry know?


----------



## Blues Human

@NickZac: I wish I had had access to more antibiotics at the time, but even so I was torn between fear of over and under-medicating him. I've heard that bettas are particularly sensitive to medications and to be careful, so I toed the line until he really got sick, then I started really aggressive treatments because it seemed I had nothing to lose at that point, he was dying already so it was my only hope. Thank you for the tip though, hopefully I won't ever need the advice but if I do I am grateful to at least know a little more than I did.


@AdonisTetra: I wouldn't have thought the disease could still be in the tank either. I would assume that a water-borne illness wouldn't be able to survive in a dry environment with no host for 6 months. Could there be anything else shared between the fish? Did you still have the same food left that you used or any other supplies such as a net or gravel vacuum where moisture could remain? Plants? Decorations? I'm so sorry. It's horrible to watch and not be able to save them. My Blue was my best friend, always there for me when I needed him and always so happy to see me. It broke my heart that I couldn't help him.


----------



## Yoteizan

*Sick fish*

What in the world? So fast. It has been 3 days now. He is still hanging in there. AQ salt, Pimafix. Hope he makes it Any idea what this is?


----------



## Blues Human

Oh no I'm so sorry. I hope he'll be okay. I wish I knew some way to help, but if you read some other replies to this thread and other threads, some people have given some advice. If it is from the breeders in Asia giving them hormones to make them colorful without giving a single f*** about the well-being of the fish, I hope they rot in hell for what they're doing.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Blues Human said:


> Oh no I'm so sorry. I hope he'll be okay. I wish I knew some way to help, but if you read some other replies to this thread and other threads, some people have given some advice. If it is from the breeders in Asia giving them hormones to make them colorful without giving a single f*** about the well-being of the fish, I hope they rot in hell for what they're doing.


This disease is no longer the "mystery disease". It has already been identified earlier in the thread as a strain of mycobacteria (often referred to as "fish TB" though fish can't get TB, mycobacteria causes it). When people refer to "fish TB" they're generally talking about the bacteria that causes spinal deformities. This is a different strain.

To reply to an earlier comment you had made, mycobacteria will NOT die if it is left to sit out for a long period of time. Bleach will not kill it (Although I have heard that if you bleach a tank and let it sit out in sunlight, it will work). Medical grade disinfectants are used to kill it, meaning that you won't find anything in walmart strong enough. If you've ever heard of Barbicide, used by cosmetologists to disinfect combs and hair clips and stuff, some people use it to disinfect for mycobacteria. Mycobacteria has a thick, waxy protective coating that makes it incredibly hard to kill.



It is also probably good to know that mycobacteria is characterized as a wasting disease. Fish can live with myco for days, months, years... before it kills them. I personally can't tell you the difference between the strains but if I understand it correctly, fish can get myco and carry it for a long time before they develop this rapid fin disintegration, and rarely do they live 24 hours after that starts.

Now, based on your photos and description, I don't think this is what you were dealing with. First of all, his fins look white on the edges. This causes a very distinct gray color, and in nearly every picture I've seen of it, it looks as if the fish's fins have been burnt, similar to paper when you light a corner of it on fire. Also, he wouldn't have lived with it for two years.

The only thing I can think it may have been (when you described "a condition that was deteriorating his fins from the edges, causing them to turn white at the edges") would be tail biting. That wouldn't cause them to turn white at the edges, but the edges do turn white as they are healing. Tail biting is also very common and the fish will act totally normal but decide that he needs a hair cut and chop off his fins. If that were the case, meds would have just worsened it by irritating him and making him want to bite his fins more.

Hope that helps?


----------



## Blues Human

@ AyalaCookieJar: thank you so much for all your help and information! I hadn't seen the thread where the disease was positively identified, so I really appreciate you telling me about that. I also REALLY appreciate the information you gave me about how hard it is to kill the disease. Now I know to get a completely new tank and new equipment and decorations if I ever suspect a fish was infected with this. I really had no idea that the mycobacteria (btw: the root myc/o means fungus, so this is a bacteria with fungus-like properties?? that sounds horrible) could survive in such varied and harsh conditions.
Thank you for offering a possible explanation for my Blue's condition, also. Even though it's too late for him, I wanted to know what it was so that if I ever see it in another fish I can make the right choices next time. I was aware that bettas would nip off pieces of other bettas' fins, but I did not know that there was a possibility of them attacking their own. Do you know what I should do if I ever encounter that problem with my new fish? Does stress or boredom cause or contribute to fin biting?
Thank you again for all your help and information. I really appreciate this.


----------



## AyalaCookiejar

Tail biting is usually caused by stress or heavy finnage. Often it seems that maybe the fins get damaged and after the fish realizes its easier to swim without the extra weight, they continue to give themselves "hair cuts". It's more common in long/heavily finned males and happens in half moons more than other tail types (their fins seem to be the most delicate overall). You can TRY to combat tail biting by rearranging decor, keeping the fish entertained (put the tank by a TV or just spend time with your fish), but usually the best thing to do is remove or baffle the filter outflow. If it throws them around, it's harder for them to swim. Smaller and less heavily decorated tanks might be best for heavy finned tailbiters because they have less water to lug around all that extra luggage in and less stuff in the tank to have to navigate around.

It's worth it to keep in mind that tail biting is NOT fatal, or detrimental if you keep up on water changes. Tail biters are more likely to develop fin rot but they won't develop rot in clean water. It does not affect them. It only affects their looks, for the most part. Medicating will stress them more and might worsen the tail biting but stress coat can always be used in a tail-biting case (not a med, it contains aloe Vera). But if a tail biter refuses to stop tail biting, it is definitely not a huge reason to panic, worry, or otherwise make a huge deal about.

On mycobacteria - that is only what I PERSONALLY understand about the disease. I have tried to understand it to the best of my ability and explain it in simpler terms. So everything I said above is not necessarily 100% accurate and many other forum members are more educated on myco than I am and may be able to answer further questions and/or correct anything I said if necessary. Basement Bettas and CopperMoon come to mind, but a forum search on "mycobacteria" should help you find the actual thread, which has a lot more info. If you are really concerned, one of those forum members may be able to answer your question.

Also the point of the thread is to make sure you are aware and not to scare you to death. Myco is a horrible disease but if you are not a breeder you have little to lose (read Basement Betta's story). Just be aware that you CAN be affected by it if you have open sores on your hands and put them in the water. It's rare but possible so it's a good idea to practice bio-security, but don't let it ruin your fish keeping hobby.

If you have any other questions chances are we have someone who could answer them.


----------



## resa

wish I paid more attention to this sticky. zzz about a month ago I lost my hm male and he looked exactly like the pic on the first page of this thread I bought him from a member in IBC his sister passed without any visual problems though


----------



## Bettafeathers

I'm pretty sure that I just lost my beautiful blue HM marble boy to this. His first issue was a couple weeks ago and his gills seemed inflammed and he was breathing heavy, so I did a water change. Then the scales on one of his gill plates pineconed. I thought it was maybe trauma but was going on holidays so there was nothing I could do. After holidays I came back and the gills had flattened which I was excited about but his fins had deteriorated and he was pale. Anyways, over the past week his color has come and gone and two nights ago he stopped eating. I realized a chunk of his anal fin was coming off and was a bit fuzzy. He passed away yesterday at some point.

I didn't notice the gray until after he died - it might have developed throughout the day when I was gone or after he died, I'm not sure. 

Is it safe to assume this is what I'm dealing with? 

Luckly I don't share my siphon that I use in that tank in any of the others so I shouldn't have any cross contamination.

Besides being frustrated that I lost another fish, I'm frustrated because he was in a 10 gallon tank that is planted. I just threw $50 of plants into the tank a couple days ago too. I'm a student going back to school soon and cannot afford to rip the tank down and throw another couple hundred bucks at it to get it up and running again. I really really don't want to toss what is likely well over $100 in plants plus the wood and rocks etc. Do I really have any other choice though? Could I leave it dormant for a ridiculously long time without a fish - will the mycos die off without a host or does it survive indefinitely?? 

Sorry if these questions seem redundant/obvious. I haven't had a chance to read up on this much.


----------



## MaryElizabeth

I have had 4 betta's die of this strange disease in the past two months. 3 were blue, one was teal.
2 were veil tails
2 were half moon bettas


All were fine at night, and in the morning, they had advanced diseases.
*My first betta* had ick, but died within 24 hours
*the second one* showed signs of fin rot and died within three days
*the third betta*, a blue half moon swam in huge chunks of his fins when I found him in the morning. He turned grey on top, and had white stomach. He died within a week, losing his ability to swim or stay on top of the water.
*the 4th betta* was my half moon female. I had her one week to the date. I fed her a little worm before bed, and in the morning she was hiding and wouldn't come to me. She...couldn't breath or stay on top of the water. Couldn't eat. light grey on her body with beginning signs of fin rot.

I hope that this information is useful to you in finding out more about the Mysterious Disease since their deaths are so close to each other. I got three fish from Petco and one from Pets Plus. Both stores were very kind and let me return the fish, but said nothing about a mysterious disease.

Maryelizabeth


----------



## Sena Hansler

Bettafeathers said:


> I'm pretty sure that I just lost my beautiful blue HM marble boy to this. His first issue was a couple weeks ago and his gills seemed inflammed and he was breathing heavy, so I did a water change. Then the scales on one of his gill plates pineconed. I thought it was maybe trauma but was going on holidays so there was nothing I could do. After holidays I came back and the gills had flattened which I was excited about but his fins had deteriorated and he was pale. Anyways, over the past week his color has come and gone and two nights ago he stopped eating. I realized a chunk of his anal fin was coming off and was a bit fuzzy. He passed away yesterday at some point.
> 
> I didn't notice the gray until after he died - it might have developed throughout the day when I was gone or after he died, I'm not sure.
> 
> Is it safe to assume this is what I'm dealing with?
> 
> Luckly I don't share my siphon that I use in that tank in any of the others so I shouldn't have any cross contamination.
> 
> Besides being frustrated that I lost another fish, I'm frustrated because he was in a 10 gallon tank that is planted. I just threw $50 of plants into the tank a couple days ago too. I'm a student going back to school soon and cannot afford to rip the tank down and throw another couple hundred bucks at it to get it up and running again. I really really don't want to toss what is likely well over $100 in plants plus the wood and rocks etc. Do I really have any other choice though? Could I leave it dormant for a ridiculously long time without a fish - will the mycos die off without a host or does it survive indefinitely??
> 
> Sorry if these questions seem redundant/obvious. I haven't had a chance to read up on this much.


Does not sound like that was it, to be honest. With my fellas, they all died AFTER grey showed. Literally looks like ashes. Greying after death is normal as that is the body breaking down. To be honest it sounds like something was wrong with the water, or depending when you got him (under a month), could have been an underlying problem from the store.

For the plants, use warm tap water, and isolate the plants for 2-4 weeks. I do this before adding, and after a fish dies.


----------



## Bettafeathers

Thanks for the reply Sena. I thought I'd post to see what other opinions were as I was unsure myself. I've had him for a few months, so I'm betting something happened with the water (I'm unsure what, but I will test to see if anything was out of whack). The way his fins looked after he died looked like the fish in the op. I just remembered seeing that picture and was wondering. But since the grey didn't show before death (as far as I know) you're probably right. I'll make sure to do a thorough cleaning of everything and give it a few weeks before I get a new fish. 

Thanks again


----------



## Sena Hansler

Well some things you won't be able to test for! Anything chemical in the air, landing in the water, for example. Just break down the tank do a full clean, and restart it. Sucks, but not worth having something go wrong with other fish.


----------



## fishgeek

AyalaCookiejar said:


> This disease is no longer the "mystery disease". It has already been identified earlier in the thread as a strain of mycobacteria (often referred to as "fish TB" though fish can't get TB, mycobacteria causes it). When people refer to "fish TB" they're generally talking about the bacteria that causes spinal deformities. This is a different strain.
> 
> To reply to an earlier comment you had made, mycobacteria will NOT die if it is left to sit out for a long period of time. Bleach will not kill it (Although I have heard that if you bleach a tank and let it sit out in sunlight, it will work). Medical grade disinfectants are used to kill it, meaning that you won't find anything in walmart strong enough. If you've ever heard of Barbicide, used by cosmetologists to disinfect combs and hair clips and stuff, some people use it to disinfect for mycobacteria. Mycobacteria has a thick, waxy protective coating that makes it incredibly hard to kill.


I just had a blue veil tail male die on me the beginning of this week from this disease. I had only had him for about 6 days, he came from liveaquaria. I put him in a 6 gallon tank with a few african dwarf frogs and a snail. He got these symptoms very suddenly a few days after he arrived; I fed him in the morning, and when I went to feed him that evening most of his tail was that charcoal color and it was already spreading to his body. I assumed it was fin rot. He died within 36 hours. 

Now my ADFs have been dying off. Pulled 2 dead out of the tank this morning, with what appeared to be white patches on their bodies. 2 more have white, fluffy looking patches on their front legs. I'm wondering if this is the same disease affecting the frogs...

But what I'm most concerned about, and my biggest question is, what should I do with my tank? if I add another fish to the tank in a few weeks, would it contract this disease from the tank itself?


----------



## Sena Hansler

Your frogs sound like columnaris to me, personally.

I will repeat again for this IF caught soon enough you might be able to fight it off. I used KANAPLEX (something I now suggest everyone gets as you usually have to order it). Shadow did pull through but his organs failed soon after - but at least I knew it WAS a possibility to fight it off. I bought him for the sole purpose to monitor every day, logged it every day, and caught it right before it hit.

Now I have not encountered the disease recently, and it may or may not have changed from what I encountered five times over. I've even fought off a weird strong strain of columnaris! :roll: seems like diseases for fish are getting stronger every year.

Anyways, you may want to quarantine the frogs individually, and medicate each. This stops the columnaris from bouncing around. Keep the heat about 76, as fungu loves it warmer - we don't want that!! Maracyn (or maracyn 2) works well on columnaris but again unsure for doses for frogs as they are different from fish. Don't get another fish until it is resolved.

As for the tank, break it down. I toss away substrate when encountering a vicious virus/disease, anything porous (fabric plants) are tossed away, other ornaments and the tank itself can be bleached and left to sit. Please make sure to super rinse it out! Acrylic tanks I just toss out... But glass tanks are usually fine.

To me everyone seems to encounter different strengths of the strain. Inhave reused my tanks after breaking them down and never had an issue. The breakdown time total was 48 hours for me since I let stuff sit quite a while, and usually "rinse and repeat". 

Personally I just avoid blues now. It seems to be from one supplier to one store, but it is a wholesaler so I was unable to track it back.


----------



## fishgeek

before I saw this thread I was thinking the frogs had columnaris. But the betta who was housed with them for only a few days most definitely had mycobacteria, so I was wondering if the frogs contracted it, but it just looked different. I am treating them right now with aquarium salt and melafix (since there's no longer a betta in the tank). I was going to continue that for a week to see if it helps. 

I'm most worried about the snail, though. I don't think that snails can contract the disease, but could he be carrying it? when I break down the tank to sanitize it, what will happen to the snail? From everything I have read, they recommend all affected fish be euthanized, even if they survive the disease, because they are carriers. It's my favorite snail


----------



## Sena Hansler

Not sure on the snail but I do know they dislike salt and a lot of meds! 

I would not have euthanized Shadow, that is just stupid. He would have had his own tank, like he did, and his own supplies, like he did... I had 5 different water pails, one was just for him, as was a net, food, etc. Just don't breed, obviously. Just because a fish is a carrier, does not mean all the strains call for killing them. You will also have to take care not to let yourself get sick as the result of fish to human disease transfer is most unknown, or iffy at best. 

If you want, for the snail, maybe you should keep the fella in his own small tank? Just know not to have anything used between his tank and another tank at all ever. Just in case!


----------



## MattsBettas

Sena, honestly, I don't think Shadow ever beat the myco, and rather went into relapse a week later... Which happened to some of coppermoon's fish as well.

Mycobacteria _must_ be treated as though it is highly contagious and untreatable.


----------



## Sena Hansler

I'm done on this thread. Have fun.


----------



## Helena1

Hi!

Could this be it? (please tell me it isn't). He was fine last night and this morning he was like this.


----------



## fishgeek

that looks like the exact same discoloring my fish had, except he had much, much more of it (almost his whole tail) seemingly overnight. Since it's a smaller spot it *might* be fin rot...but that coloring is very disconcerting. If it rapidly spreads within the next 24 hours...start planning how you will sanitize that tank.


----------



## Helena1

I went to the store to show them pictures of my fish and explain how his condition has deteriorated overnight. The guy said it's probably a bacterial infection and gave me tetracycline. 

Now, the part of my fish's fin that was ''silver'' is now dark brown-black. Part of his face is white. I think part of the fin has disappeared. His colors are dull and very dark. He's not bright blue anymore. His pelvic fins are also dark, almost black (they were red)

He's still eating but it took a couple of tries before he ate the pellets ( he would eat them then''spit'' them), he's swimming around in the tank - he's now in a small tank with tetracycline, for 3 days at least.

If they are right, he should get better soon. If not....

I do not know if fin rot can be cured with tetracycline, so if it's fin rot and not a bacterial infection...I don't know...


----------



## fishgeek

doesn't sound like fin rot. Hopefully the medication works...


----------



## Helena1

pictures of him, tonight...

I really hope tetracycline will cure my poor fish...


----------



## Saphira101

Oh, poor baby. 

Good luck.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Helena1 - I would call around and see if you can find a petstore that carries *Kanaplex (kanamycin)*. Petsmart and Petco don't carry it, but some local stores might. If you can't get it locally, you can purchase it online - but if you do this, I recommend overnight shipping (if you can afford it). 

Also, take precautions for yourself. Wash your hands well after working with him. If you have other fish, make sure his equipment doesn't come in contact with them. 

I hope he makes it!.... But... if he doesn't, please put his body into a plastic bag. Do not touch him. Most aquatic diseases don't affect people, but it's better not to take a chance. And then ask us about disinfection techniques.

Again, I hope he makes it. Good luck....


----------



## Helena1

*I tried. But it's getting worse*

Thank you all for your advice 

I couldn't find Kanaplex in local pet stores, even ''specialized'' fish stores.:-( Trying to find it online.

I am now *worried about my own health* because I have 4 or 5 scratches on my hands and I didn't use gloves yesterday :shock::shock::shock:--- I wanted to remove all the plants, rocks and gravel out of his aquarium to wash them and my hands were in the water for like 20 minutes!!  I ended up putting everything back in the tank,not knowing what product to use.
?? Will I be able to use the tank if I want to buy another fish???? I am reading an article right now and they are saying that you have to get rid of the tank, plants, gravel, filter, etc, because the disease is highly contagious and there is no cleaner that can get rid of this disease, even bleach can't.

About my fish:

This morning, the ''silver'' patch on his fin is now covering part of his belly. I can see it's slowly eating him. It's like the flesh-eating disease.

He seems to be having some difficulties swimming. His entire body his dark grey, except for his lower jaw, which is white/grey, and the silver patch on his fin and belly.

The part of his fin that was covered with this silver thing yesterday is now brown/black.

He did eat this morning, but not much and he's having trouble swallowing I think. He could not eat pellets, so I gave him flakes and he took a few bites then turned away.

I am convinced that this is the same disease. It is sad to know that he is suffering and there is nothing I ca do to help him.

If you have any suggestions on how I can help him (is there some kind of pain medecine I could give him for his last few hours/days??!)
how I can clean the tank and what to do so I don't get sick, I'd appreciate it.

Thank you all for your help.

I hope next time I am posting a picture on this forum, it's a picture of a healthy, happy fish. Maybe Edward-Henry the Second.


----------



## fishgeek

Definitely get some gloves. Toss everything -rocks, plants, gravel, decor, nets, anything used in that tank. I sanitized my tank using a strong bleach solution. I had a 6.6 gallon, basically I poured a whole bottle of bleach in it, then filled it up with water. Then I turned on the filter and let it cycle the bleach for 30 minutes - 1 hour. Then I thoroughly rinsed everything, and ran warm water (with a ton of water conditioner) through it for another 30 mins. After, you can use rubbing alcohol to further disinfect, but I did not as there was a very strong bleach smell and I was concerned about the fumes mixing. Chemicals are scary. I feel confident my tank is fine, but I will be re-selling it because my next fish is coming from a breeder; I plan on breeding and I don't want even the smallest risk. As for the fish...it sounds really, really bad. If I were to ever see this again with my fish, I would probably try to euthanize to end the pain.


----------



## Helena1

*It's over*

I have decided to euthanize my poor fish because I know he was suffering. 
My boyfriend did it, with ice I think. I am very sad, I loved him very much and seeing him suffer like this was hard.

I will throw everything away and clean the tank. But are you sure that I can use my tank again??!!! I was thinking of getting another betta, but I don't want him to get sick...:-(


----------



## MattsBettas

Is the tank glass or plastic? 

Bleach will not kill this. You need an anti TB disinfectant, like 70%+ alcohol or hospital grade Lysol.


----------



## Helena1

*disinfecting tank after Fish TB*

it's a 10 gallon glass tank
I have a filter and heater.

I need a new net, new plants, new rocks, new substrate, but can I clean and use the tank, filter and heater??? I would like to have another betta...

And if so, what is the best way to disinfect everything?


----------



## ReeseInPieces

Can someone help out? Saw this post and immediately thought about this thread, the lesions not to sure about but the colouring. 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=251873


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Helena1 - I'm sorry for your loss.....

You should be able to clean the tank and heater. You may be able to clean the hard plastic parts of the filter. I would throw out the net, silk plants, rocks and gravel.

Here is some disinfection info:

1) Hot water is effective at killing Mycobacteria. *The water must be kept at 65C (149F), or higher, for at LEAST 30 min.* (1)
2) Soaking in alcohol (such as rubbing/isopropyl alcohol) for several hours kills it.
3) UV light (found in sunlight) kills it. (1), (2)
4) Bleach does not kill it, but can help remove any organic material or biofilms on hard surfaces (such as the tank, heater, filter casing). 

There is an excellent write-up about *disinfection protocols* in this article. (See page 8): Mycobacterial Infections of Fish.

Wear gloves at all times. Nitrile is a good, and inexpensive, option. The gloves will protect you from both bacteria AND from the cleaning agents.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
(1) MYCOBACTERIUM TUBERCULOSIS COMPLEX - PATHOGEN SAFETY DATA SHEET
(2) MYCOBACTERIUM SPP. - PATHOGEN SAFETY DATA SHEET
(3) Mycobacterial Infections of Fish


----------



## drake

hi guys.
my female betta got dropsy.early stage.im curius where this bacteria/virus came from?
recently i feed my betta's with frozen blood worm.any thought?
i just change the water daily for my female betta,hopefully she will recover soon.


----------



## Helena1

*Thank you*

LittleBlueFishlets - Thank you very much for your help and advice 


Thanks everyone


----------



## BlueInkFish

my brothers fish has this i think!


----------



## Helena1

*So, is the mystery disease fish tb or not?*

My fish died suddenly last week. :-(

I wanted to know what he was suffering from, so I took pictures and posted them on forums (including this thread), showed them to people working in specialized ''fish stores’’ - I even took my fish (when he was still alive) to one of the stores to get some help. 

After reading this thread – and as one ‘’specialists’’ suggested it was tb – I was convinced that Fish TB was killing my fish. 

I called many places, including the university veterinary dept, where they have a team specialized in fish and exotic pets…

You guys know a lot about fish diseases and some of you have even had your fish ‘autopsied’ to confirm it was fish tb , so I want to know you opinion on what their vet said:

I told him about all of the symptoms my fish had (the exact symptoms I’ve read about on this page):
-	graphite gray tissue necropsy that spreads from the bottom of the fins upward to the body within hours
-	sudden loss of mobility (one day he was fine, the next he was swimming sideways)
-	death within 12-24 hours, occasionally as long as 36 hours ( my fish died in 36 hours)

I mentioned Fish TB and asked him if he thought it could be the cause of death.
His answer : I did not think it was fish tb at all. :shock:

He said that Fish tb is extremely rare in small aquariums like mine and most of the fishes suffering from the same symptoms are dying of bacterial infections – nothing else, not fish tb. :shock:

He said that many diseases could cause the symptoms I was describing, and more…if, for any reason, the fish’s immune system is compromised, a disease can quickly take over a fish’s entire body and kill him in a matter of hours. 

Also, he said that the symptoms of fish tb are usually a loss of scales, loss of color, lesions, wasting, curved spines and that it does not always kill a fish quickly - in his opinion, mycobacterium can be present in a fish but not develop until the immune system is compromised, and it can take days.(like streptococcus in humans). This could explain why it was found when an autopsy was done on a fish.

So, is the mystery disease fish TB or could it be something else? If it is fish tb, why don’t we see curved spines, lesions and loss of scales? Do you know of another disease that can cause the same symptoms and kill a fish so quickly?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

*The only way to know for certain whether a fish has Mycobacterial infection is to via laboratory analysis and/or a necropsy.* (Technically speaking, people have autopsies, animals have necropsies.)

Several members here (Coppermoon and Basement Bettas) had their fish necropsied and analyzed by independent laboratories. Both of them are breeders and show their fish, so to them, it was worth the expense to pay for this. In both cases, they were told that their fish tested positive for Mycobacterial infections.

There are a few posts in this thread (and another one about Mycobacterial infection, which I don't think got stickied), that discuss how of these fish don't always appear to have the 'classic' symptoms (curved spines, etc). But I don't recall seeing a clear answer about this.

There were questions posed in these threads asking why blue Bettas seemed to show a slightly different set of symptoms, where the fins turned gray (but no lesions or spine curvature was noticed). Again, I don't recall seeing any answers about this. (I do remember one post where someone said this was being studied.)

As for Mycobacterial infection being rare in small aquariums, my answer would be a question: Where was your fish before you got him? Many of us get our fish from chain petstores. Before that, the fish were often imported to large scale distributors. Could they have been exposed to something there? The answer is: We don't know.

You asked if other diseases could cause these same symptoms of gray fins, loss of mobility and quick death. I am not a veterinarian, but I would say that the gray fins indicate tissue death. At this point when this occurs, the internal organs are failing, and the fish is dying. As it dies, the external tissues (fins) would start to die first and turn gray/black. As the internal organs fail more, it's possible that the fish will lose mobility. And once the organs fail completely, death would result.

So I would guess that yes, other aggressive infections that attack the internal organs could possibly cause the same type of symptoms. 

But, from what I have read, the only way to know for sure if a fish has Mycobacterial infection is to conduct lab analysis and/or a necropsy. During a lab analysis, internal organs are examined, and samples are cultured to determine the presence of Mycobacteria. So, unfortunately, this is the only way to really determine whether this was the actual cause of death.

Hopefully, someone like Sakura, Basement Bettas or Coppermoon will weigh in on this.....


----------



## Helena1

*Sorry*

 I'm sorry. I thought I read a post saying it was confirmed it was tb causing these symptoms. Maybe because English isn't my first language I misunderstood.  sorry again.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Yes, you're correct in that it was Mycobacterial infection that caused the death of Coppermoon's and Basement Betta's fish. They both confirmed this via necropsy and lab analysis.... 

But it's possible that there are other illnesses/diseases that can have similar symptoms. So the only way to know for sure if it's Mycobacteria causing the problem is to do what Coppermoon and Basesment Bettas did, which is to have the fish necropsied and/or analysed.

Unfortunately, lab analysis/necropsy is expensive. So it's not something that most people will do. And even if someone wants to have an analysis/necropsy done, it must be done right after the fish dies. If it's not done right away, the body decomposes, and the lab can't determine the cause of death.

But again, maybe Sakura, Coppermoon or Basement Bettas will be able to provide more information about this for you.


----------



## MattsBettas

You can do your own post mortem necropsy, which will not be as conclusive as a lab analysis but *may* give you an insight on how the fish died, since there are often very obvious internal symptoms in fish with myco.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Matt - Would someone doing this need a microscope, or it is possible to see the abnormalities just by looking at specific organs? 

(Also, do you know if these abnormalities are specific to Myco, or could similar changes be caused by either bacterial or parasitical infections?)


----------



## MattsBettas

Granulomas (small white growths caused be the body attacking the bacteria) should be visible to the naked eye for someone that doesn't have impaired sight, but a microscope would be very helpful, especially if you are looking for other things like parasites.

There are a few other things that can cause granulomas to form but they are relatively uncommon. If the fish has shown other symptoms of myco and granulomas are present it would be safe to conclude that myco was the cause of death and to take appropriate sterilization measures, etc.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Very helpful info, thanks!


----------



## 34339

My fish has a small patch of grey on his gills and has trouble staying upright. I can't see any other areas of infection. Could it be this horrible disease? This is urgent I need to know as quickly as possible.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hi DalekDYE,

There are lots of potential causes for discoloration and buoyancy issues. Many (most) of them are from minor health issues. For example, your Betta's buoyancy issues could simply be due to constipation or overfeeding. 

I recommend that you start a new thread for your Betta. Explain what's going on. Copy and paste the information from this sticky into your post so we have a clear idea of what's going on.

But again, what you've described so far sounds like a minor digestive issue which might require a day of fasting or a food brand change.


----------



## shannonpwns

Has it been determined what this is exactly? Because I fear my female may have it...

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=270514


----------



## chicklette

What can I do for my constipated beta?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hi chicklette:

1) Click here. Highlight the entire form and copy it.

2) Click http://www.bettafish.com/forumdisplay.php?f=99. 
Right above the list of threads is a box that says "Post New Thread." 
Click it and start a new thread. 
Paste the form into it, and answer the questions.


----------



## PonyJumper101

What causes this disease?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

There are potentially two diseases.....

Mycobacteria is what affected Coppermoon's and Basement Betta's fish. This was verified via laboratory analysis. 

Then there's the "graphite disease" which causes the fins to turn gray (graphite-colored), followed by death within 48 hours. So far, I haven't seen anything definite on whether this is also caused by the same type of Mycobacteria, or if it's caused by something else.

I would treat cases of both Mycobacterial infection and "graphite disease" similarly until we know more. This means following strict protocols in terms of disinfecting the tank and equipment, and preventing cross-contamination between tanks. (Bleach is not effective on Myco!)

Also, Mycobacteria spp is one of the few diseases that can cause illness in humans, so protect yourself by wearing gloves. (It can cause nasty sores on your hands if it gets into the tissues.) 

Don't touch fish that may be infected with this. If they die, put them into a plastic bag. (Better yet, double-bag them!) Dispose of the body in the trash. (Do not put them into a nearby lake, etc. Doing this can contaminate the water, and cause other fish to become sick.)


----------



## MattsBettas

You can also burn the bodies, since myco is not spread in the air and high temperatures kill it.


----------



## Bettalover41

I wish I would have seen this thread earlier. All of our blue betta females my lovely oracles except for Seagrass are all dead. I already disposed of their bodies. I'm hoping and crossing my fingers that the others that are left do not suffer this fate at all.


----------



## maystable

I believe one of my rescued baby bettas had started off with swim bladder bloat, but then caught onto this. He was the size of a thumbnail and had a blueish tint to him. When I first had gotten him, he was on an herbal medication. Peanut (his name) seemed to be doing much much better after 2 days, but then his whole tail turned a light gray... He died Sunday, but I do believe that this is what he had


----------



## Tank Gurl

Just found this thread. 

I lost my baby Trinette suddenly this morning. I posted threads about her, thinking she had dropsy, but the generally consensus of the members here didn't see her pine coning. 

I did treat her with fungus clear for 4 days last week and she was just fine during treatment and after. Fed her last night, she was active and happy, then this morning just gone.

I did not think to take a picture, i was too distraught. She did not have the silver/grey on her fins, but her right side was black, like something rotted inside of her, her stomach was slightly bloated making her head tilt upward and she was covered in furry white stuff in only 8 hours!!! I dont know if its the same thing, but 8 hours seems quick.


----------



## srf312

I think one of my boys just died of this. He was looking stressed and sick, but had nothing on him this morning. When I came home, he was dead and his fins had the black all over them. I didnt get a picture, too upset


----------



## mmlsavoie

Could this be it? It came on overnight. I have no idea how to treat it.


----------



## Paolo Osorio

Sakura8 said:


> Thanks, purple. Wonder if formaldehyde works. Most veterinary clinics or universities should have that, right?
> 
> Pitluvs, what if someone had to put a betta named Mustard in the fridge? :shock: Too weird. "Where's the mustard?" "Next to Mustard." "Whaaat?"


Lol


----------



## nunosilva10

So I will wrote what happened to My bettas. 
I have guppys on My aquarium and some Gymnocorymbus and 3 females and 1betta male. Two month back My bettas died with regular columnaris treated them with esha 2000 and no success. A few weeks later i introduced new bettas to the aquarium and they where all fine and happy for a few weeks and now the 3 females I introduced a few weeks back died yesterday with columnaris and My male in the same aquarium as this same disease talked on this thread with his tails all grey, I think it is some form or derivated from columnaris, treated them with sera baktopur, 0 results :c MY male is Alive not for long. :c he is a blue veil tail. The weirdest stuff is that all the other fish are OK and happy only bettas got affected by columnaris and this new kind of disease the blue male. Ill upload some pictures later .30h has passed since the first signals of the disease and his tails are all grey and falling. My first BETTA will die :-(


----------



## Bettalover41

You need to do a complete tank change. Columnaris is no joke. I followed another treatment on here for columnaris and with great success managed to stop it twice when it was on two other bettas. We did the 12 hour aquarium salt with tetracycline change. Emptied everything out. the decorations we tossed. The plants we tossed. We started with a clean slate. breaking everyone into the tank the way we should. They hated it. they lived in water treated cups for 5 days the tank got done with quarantine before they did so they kept making prison breaks. When they were in their cups we change their twice a day and by treated I meant with basic ick guard and beta fix. They are fine now. Do your research on tank mates. What sounds like a great fish to put in is a killer because of the bacteria they carry. We quarantine all tank mates for the minimum of 3 days. Their water is treated and they are in a tank with nothing in it but them. Aquarium salt is most awesome. The treatment used for columnaris on here works when you follow all directions for quarantine and adding plants. etc. 

When you start with a clean slate after this outbreak that includes the tank mates. they go through the same treatment. no exception. even after doing what we did after that heart breaking outbreak it still isn't a guarantee you'll get rid of it. But keep your head up. It's a learning process with betta.


----------



## nunosilva10

Thanks for your reply, helped me alot

I have one question, i'll start the aquarium over again and toss the things away, what can I do with the filter? How can I clean it and the thermostat ?

Today morning my pregnant guppy died with columnaris too, I have more fancy and expensive guppy's in there don't know what can I do :c

This was the final state of my betta, the other 3 females died ,not like him, with regular columnaris.


----------



## Bettalover41

The thermostat is fine. just rinse it off well. for some reason I noticed that the surface doesn't usually allow that kind of growth. As for the filter. Wash with inside and outside in running warm water. Get the whole thing. Attachments etc. I used a hard sponge that I cut to get up into the tubes etc. Wash very well. You will put that back in the tank with the 24 hr. tetracycline and aquarium salt bath. nothing in it. Just that and the filter.anything new before you go putting it into the tank needs a quarantine tank and put them in separate tank for a 12 hour cycle on aquarium salt and the tetracycline. I am so sorry for your loss.


----------



## Finley429

I believe my betta is dying from this. At first I thought it was fin rot, then I thought it could be a fungal infection. No medicines have helped. Today he developed a gray spot, and within the next two hours of me discovering it, it had gotten noticeably worse. It's a rapid killer. It breaks my heart because I have grown quite attached to my little Finley, but I just can't do anything for him. I hope someone figured out what this is.


----------



## Hanselvrod31

*My Betta Fish has a lump in the middle side of his body!*

My blue Betta fish has a lump on his right,middle side of his body. What should I do?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hanselvrod31,

Welcome to the forum!

1) Start a new thread, so that people know your fish has a problem.
2) Copy/paste the form from this thread into your post. Giving us answers to these questions will help people determine what's wrong. (Answer what you can. Leave anything else blank.)
3) If possible, include a photo of your Betta so we can see him.


----------



## Bettafishadopter

Just making you aware that this also has been targeting white bEtta's. The Instagram community of bettas has experienced this "white betta" disease


----------



## Kiara1125

I had my whole sorority of 8 bettas wiped out by this. They all died overnight and their fins looked horrid. They were a graphite color and some of them even rotted away faster, leaving white skin with red blotches everywhere. It was ONLY the bettas that were affected. None of my tetras, not even my angelfish or german blue ram! It's a terrible disease and I don't know where I got it from. All the girls were there for months and they were all around a year and less - youngest being 4 months.

I found this website which might explain what it is, or something similar to it. Mycobacteria ... might it be related to this?


----------



## Waking Buddha

I work at a pet store and something very similar to this happened to about 15 of our bettas over the course of two weeks. I've never seen it before and haven't seen it happen since but it was also accompanied by a film of rapidly spreading fuzz so maybe it's something totally different. Each betta affected died within 24 hours.


----------



## tmosby8

*New betta.*

Hi, 

I m a newbie to aquarium and bettas. I bought them because I read that they need very less oxygen and are stronger than other fishes. 

My betta is not as active as I thought it would be. It sits at the bottom of the tank, doesnt eat much. 

I m trying to feed him hi-red fish food. Is this even right? 

Please advise. 

Thanks.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

*tmosby8* - Welcome to the forum. I suggest you start a new thread, so that people see that you need advice for your new fish. To do this:
1) Click here to start a new thread.
2) Copy and paste the information from this sticky into your new post. Answer the questions as best you can. (Leave blank anything that you can't answer.)


*Waking Buddha* - A fast-moving white-fuzz often indicates Columnaris infection. This is an "opportunistic bacterial infection" that can be treated (if caught early enough) with a gram-negative antibiotic, such as API Furan 2, Mardel Maracyn 2 (minocycline), etc. Fish subjected to stress (such as transport to/from stores, being in plastic cups, etc) are susceptible to opportunistic infections, such as Columnaris.


----------



## tmosby8

done.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=3987034


----------



## NanaBeams

I am kind of confused. What are the recommendations to deal with this acute and progressive disease? Is there a Stickied thread on this? I haven't gotten a betta yet, but I am TERRIFIED after stumbling on this thread. How would you go about sanitizing your tank and disposing the water, etc? I read from the article that the microorganism is highly infectious to humans as well. I wouldn't want to try cleaning the tank in the bathtub/sink. Could you soak everything in bleach/high acid solutions?

I'm not familiar with how you would go about properly sanitizing aquariums after deaths.

So scary.. poor fish


----------



## shadepixie

My Louie most certainly has this. I thought he would be dead this morning but he's still alive. I am certain that the bacteria was transmitted via some false Cory Julii from Petsmart a little less than a week ago.
My questions now are:
- Should I euthanize? What is the best way to euthanize?
- Should I call the Petsmart and let them know their stock may be contaminated?
- Is there a good way to clean everything? I cannot afford to start over, I know people say throw everything out and start over. Can I boil the gravel and driftwood? Bleach the plants?
- What about the two remaining Corys (that seem totally fine) and all my ghost shrimp? I do not have a hospital tank.

I am devastated that I took such good care of my tank and my Betta and this has happened. I did almost everything by the book. I'm angry that some people keep their Bettas in little jars and they live for a long time. I only got Louie last July and gave him such a big, beautiful, clean, natural home. I can't start all over. Please help.


----------



## Kiara1125

Yes, euthanize him. Put him into a small cup and put a lot of ice cubes in there. As they melt, he'll "fall asleep" and then die peacefully. I always use this method and I find it better than letting them suffocate in clove oil.


----------



## MattsBettas

No need to euthanize him if you don't want to, he'll most likely be dead within 24 hours and if a mistake is made during euthanasia it can cause the fish to suffer far more than if it died naturally. I recommend the clove oil method or ice shock- I know other members may recommend other methods, bus as someone who breeds and has euthanized a lot of fish I find those methods to be the fastest and most humane. 

Sterilization- Throw out anything porous or alive (plants). Empty the tank, and spray everything with 70%+ rubbing alcohol.


----------



## shadepixie

He was dead when I got home. This is an aggressive killer. I buried him in my garden because I couldn't bear to just toss him in the trash.
Sunday I will strip the tank, boil the driftwood and the gravel, alcohol the tank... What about the filter? And what about the two cories and all the shrimp?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

*NanaBeams* - This *is* the stickied thread on this disease.  We're calling the fast-moving version "Graphite Disease," as the fins turn gray (graphite) colored. The color spreads upwards towards the body, and the fish usually dies within 24-48 hours. 

The disease itself is caused by Mycobacteria, a type of bacteria that is resistant to medications. Two breeders, Coppermoon and Basement Bettas, had fish diagnosed with this. You can read about Coppermoon's fish earlier in this thread. (Basement Bettas created a separate thread, which is no longer available to us, as the discussion became somewhat heated.) 

Here is an excellent article about the disease: Mycobacterial Infections in Fish.

The only way to know for sure if a fish has Myco is by analyzing the body and internal organs, and looking for changes such as "granulomas" (areas of inflammation or small nodules). For the most part, I don't worry about Mycobacterial infection in my fish. It can cause a very nasty infection if it penetrates the skin, however. If you're concerned, you can wear gloves when doing water changes or working with your fish. (It can't penetrate through latex, nitrile, rubber, etc.)

To disinfect equipment/supplies: bleach is NOT effective. If you can submerge the equipment in boiling water, that would work. Hospital grade Lysol will kill it, but household strength will not. 

If you can't use boiling water and don't have Hospital-grade Lysol, scrub off all organic material or deposits. Then soak it in 70% or higher concentration of ethanol (ethyl alcohol) or rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol). Let it air dry. Rinse well (with hot water). UV light is also effective, so I would try to let the object air dry in the sun for several days.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

*SHADEPIXIE *- While the only way to know for sure if a fish is infected with Mycobacteria is via a laboratory analysis, your fish very definitely displays the classic signs of the disease. 

Therefore, I would treat this as Myco, and take precautions for yourself and your other fish. 

Wear gloves at all times when you are working around the tank. Wash your hands using soap and hot water when you are done. (Do this even though you're wearing gloves.) Avoid sharing ANY equipment or supplies among tanks, if you have more than one. 

I would throw out anything that's porous. (Gravel, decorations, artificial or silk plants, etc.) Disinfect anything that's not porous via the disinfection protocol that I outlined above. 

I highly recommend reading this article for more information. 

If he's still alive, you may want to try treating with Kanaplex (kanamycin sulfate), on the possible chance that it's something else. Or, you can just let nature take its course. Disinfect or throw out everything.

Also, be cautious about your home. Mycobacteria can survive long periods of time, even on countertops or in sinks. Take precautions for yourself, anyone else in your home, and your other fish.

If your fish dies, wrap the body in paper towels or newspaper. Then put it into a ziplock bag. Seal it, and put it in the trash. Or, you can burn the body, if you prefer. If these options bother you, then do something to memorialize him, such as donating to your local humane society, planting flowers or a tree in his memory, etc.

Edited to add: Your post was added while I was writing this long reply.... Myco can survive in soil. So I wouldn't have buried him. Burning or isolating in plastic are better options.... But what's done is done. I would throw out the gravel and driftwood. They can harbor the bacteria for a very long time. Better to toss anything like this and get new stuff, than to risk infecting other fish (or yourself).


----------



## shadepixie

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> *SHADEPIXIE *- While the only way to know for sure if a fish is infected with Mycobacteria is via a laboratory analysis, your fish very definitely displays the classic signs of the disease.
> 
> Therefore, I would treat this as Myco, and take precautions for yourself and your other fish.
> 
> Wear gloves at all times when you are working around the tank. Wash your hands using soap and hot water when you are done. (Do this even though you're wearing gloves.) Avoid sharing ANY equipment or supplies among tanks, if you have more than one.
> 
> I would throw out anything that's porous. (Gravel, decorations, artificial or silk plants, etc.) Disinfect anything that's not porous via the disinfection protocol that I outlined above.
> 
> I highly recommend reading this article for more information.
> 
> If he's still alive, you may want to try treating with Kanaplex (kanamycin sulfate), on the possible chance that it's something else. Or, you can just let nature take its course. Disinfect or throw out everything.
> 
> Also, be cautious about your home. Mycobacteria can survive long periods of time, even on countertops or in sinks. Take precautions for yourself, anyone else in your home, and your other fish.
> 
> If your fish dies, wrap the body in paper towels or newspaper. Then put it into a ziplock bag. Seal it, and put it in the trash. Or, you can burn the body, if you prefer. If these options bother you, then do something to memorialize him, such as donating to your local humane society, planting flowers or a tree in his memory, etc.
> 
> Edited to add: Your post was added while I was writing this long reply.... Myco can survive in soil. So I wouldn't have buried him. Burning or isolating in plastic are better options.... But what's done is done. I would throw out the gravel and driftwood. They can harbor the bacteria for a very long time. Better to toss anything like this and get new stuff, than to risk infecting other fish (or yourself).


Thank-you so much for your advice. Also to @mattsbettas and @kiara1125. 
Could the driftwood harbour the bacteria even if I boiled it for a good period of time? The gravel should be ok boiled, it's not standard gravel but a decorative aggregate made of tiny smooth pieces of glass. I'm only trying to be thrifty because I cannot afford to buy all new things. I need to try to re-use as much as I can. 
Here's another thing: The other fish in the tank with him are totally fine and behaving normally, as are the shrimp. If they are infected, why aren't they getting sick? Am I supposed to kill them?? I'm debating on riding out the infection with the few fish/shrimp I have left. I would eventually like to divide the tank and have two bettas in there, but that isn't looking likely at this point.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Yes, you can definitely boil the glass 'gravel.' The driftwood, well, I'm more hesitant - but boiling DOES kill Myco. Perhaps just boil it for a longer period of time than the recommendations (see below). To ensure that the Myco is dead, I'd boil everything for at least 30 minutes, or longer. (I'm paranoid. I'd boil the driftwood longer, just to be sure.)

I'd continue to monitor the tank. I would NOT kill the other fish or the shrimp. It's possible that he did NOT have Myco, but had some other disease. The gray coloration on the fins meant the tissue was dying. This is a symptom of Myco - but it doesn't mean that it's the ONLY cause. (In other words, he may have had some OTHER disease/illness, not Myco.)

For now though, I would not add a new Betta to the tank. I'd consider the tank and it's current occupants as "quarantined" for now. I would quarantine any new fish too.... So if you get a new betta, just keep him separate until you know that both he and your current fish are healthy. (I would QT everyone for 4 weeks.)

Here are some disinfection via boiling protocols for you: "_Most bacteria are sensitive to moist heat (121°C for at least 15 min) (Footnote 17). Mycobacteria are easily killed by heat (> 65 °C for at least 30 min)._"
Source: Mycobacterium - Pathogen Safety Data Sheet (from Pfyffer, G. E. (2007))


----------



## shadepixie

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Yes, you can definitely boil the glass 'gravel.' The driftwood, well, I'm more hesitant - but boiling DOES kill Myco. Perhaps just boil it for a longer period of time than the recommendations (see below). To ensure that the Myco is dead, I'd boil everything for at least 30 minutes, or longer. (I'm paranoid. I'd boil the driftwood longer, just to be sure.)
> 
> I'd continue to monitor the tank. I would NOT kill the other fish or the shrimp. It's possible that he did NOT have Myco, but had some other disease. The gray coloration on the fins meant the tissue was dying. This is a symptom of Myco - but it doesn't mean that it's the ONLY cause. (In other words, he may have had some OTHER disease/illness, not Myco.)
> 
> For now though, I would not add a new Betta to the tank. I'd consider the tank and it's current occupants as "quarantined" for now. I would quarantine any new fish too.... So if you get a new betta, just keep him separate until you know that both he and your current fish are healthy. (I would QT everyone for 4 weeks.)
> 
> Here are some disinfection via boiling protocols for you: "_Most bacteria are sensitive to moist heat (121°C for at least 15 min) (Footnote 17). Mycobacteria are easily killed by heat (> 65 °C for at least 30 min)._"
> Source: Mycobacterium - Pathogen Safety Data Sheet (from Pfyffer, G. E. (2007))


You are wonderfully patient with my thriftiness. I am going to leave the tank as-is for now and just keep up with my regular water changes and monitor the two cories for at least 3-4 weeks. If it is Myco, would the cories be affected in the same fashion?
I am certainly not planning to add a betta until this is all sorted. 
I should add that I work in a medical facility and have access to pretty good disinfectants. When I decide to deep-clean and divide the tank for new bettas I am going to use Savlon and Cavicide, etc, as these are indicted as Myco-killers. I may even try soaking the plants in Savlon and see if they survive. It will be a Myco-killing experiment.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hospital grade disinfectants that kill/inactivate _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_? You're all set then. If they can possibly leave a residue though, I would be sure to wash it off prior to reusing the items.

I don't have experience with cories, however:

_"All fish are susceptible to mycobacteriosis, though some species seem to be at greater risk than others..... Fish in the families Anabantidae (bettas and gouramis), Characidae (tetras), Cyprinidae (barbs, danios, koi and goldfish), and some members of the Cichlidae (including freshwater angelfish) may be more prone to the infection.....

Mycobacterium causes a chronic disease, usually characterized by wasting. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition and also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. Occasionally, deep hemorrhagic skin lesions will be seen in addition to the more common superficial lesions...."_

Source: https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/


----------



## NanaBeams

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> *NanaBeams* - This *is* the stickied thread on this disease.  We're calling the fast-moving version "Graphite Disease," as the fins turn gray (graphite) colored. The color spreads upwards towards the body, and the fish usually dies within 24-48 hours.


Right, I know that it is stickied, but I was referring to a proper stickied information thread on the mycobacteria itself with current info, plus proper handling and care as the main post. The first post in this thread is still saying that it is suspected to be columnaris and you have to sift through 40 pages to understand what is going on and really have to dig for recommendations. It should be updated at least to be more straight forward. This thread is more of a discussion, rather than tutorial, if you know what I mean. I saw a thread solely on diseases and treatments, so I was wondering if there was a version of that for the mycobacteria, that's all.


----------



## wewered

I was talking to my friend at lunch about this disease and he said that his white betta fish,snow, died of it. He said that in 24 hours, his betta went from white to black, and then died. Now we know that it also effects white betta as well.


----------



## maystable

So sad =( My blue boy, Shark, has something similar where there is like a blood-red color spreading throughout his tail/anal fin.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

maystable - blood red lines spreading through the fins can indicate *septicemia*. This is a not the disease described in this thread, but it is a very serious bacterial condition. 

Please create a new thread, so that we have more information and so that people can offer advice! Copy and post the form from this thread into your post so that people have information.


----------



## dagny0823

I can't seem to PM the OP or DarkMoon17, but someone on here has pm'ed me to say that my fish looks like it had this:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=363497

I put him in water in the freezer yesterday, to preserve him until I can take him back to Petco (I'd bury him, but it's 10 degrees out, and if he has this, I guess he shouldn't be buried). Anyway, there was no other way to preserve his body--we had a major snowstorm yesterday--but I'm wondering if I should/can send him and how to get in touch with someone about it. If he does look like this is the cause of death from the pics in my thread, let me know. I'm so sad that I've failed him, but if his death can help in some way, that would be some positive from all of this.


----------



## TerriGtoo

*betta disease*

Just curious as this was posted in 2012. Is this still an issue? I have not seen any blue bettas, or had any with this. My bettas are mostly blue as that is my favorite color. Has this disease/breeder been pinpointed?



Sakura8 said:


> I wish to spread awareness about a disease that has struck several times in the recent months. It moves very, very, very fast, often killing within 12-24 hours. Nothing is known about this disease except that it is a bacterial disease that causes rapid and acute tissue necropsy and that it seems to strike blue bettas in particular. Several people are working on identifying this disease, including veterinary student DarkMoon17, but *WE NEED YOUR HELP*.


----------



## Churro

*My betta changed color*

For the past 2 days my dragon has been lying on the bottom of the tank in a weird pose... he sits on the gravel with his tail fin and head pointing up, I thought he had gotten the swim bladder disease (after googling around and going to the local pet shop) so I fed him a pea and there was no problem in him eating

Despite mostly lying there in the weird pose, he still swims normally when he does swim and he does still flare at the mirror...

This morning I woke up to find a section of his dorsal fin has turned into an orange color... and 5 hours after he is now lying on his side and has turned into a shade of green/orange...

2 of my other bettas that were in the same tank (divided by dividers) started acting weirdly a day before... I separately all of them immediately when I notice they had become inactive

They died just a few hours ago... they shared the same water before I separately them... the white/red male's body is showing 2 tones of white (normal white and a greeny white) and the white/red female looks like there are some white/clear stuff coming off her...

Is there anything I can still do for my dragon? 

This is how he used to look and what he looks like now + my other white male


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Churro -

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear that your fish have been having problems. It doesn't sound like the "Graphite disease" or Mycobacterial infection, which are the topics on this thread, though.

I suggest that you create a new thread, so that more people will see it. Also, so that people have more information and can offer advice - please copy and post the form from this thread into your new thread so that people have additional details about what's been going on.


----------



## tapIG

My betta passed away and turned black in minutes, would that be considered graphite disease even though he had already passed? He did have the rainbow like colors and grayish black like the picture. I had him with my enders and I was wondering if this is something that can pass onto them. Also is this contagious and dangerous to humans?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

tapIG - With "graphite disease," they're still alive but their fins turn black as a result of necrosis (tissue death)..... The gray/black spreads from the tips of the fins upwards towards the body. 

What symptoms did he have? More information would be helpful, but it sounds to me like your fish died first, and then turned dark (which wouldn't be symptoms of "Graphite disease.")

As for your other fish -- it depends on why he died. 
-- If he had a contagious disease that they're susceptible to, then yes, they could potentially catch it.
-- If he had disease that wasn't contagious, or which only affects Bettas, then no, they wouldn't get it.

As for humans: There are some pathogens which can affect people. More would need to be known about the pathogen in order to determine exactly what it was. If it was something like Mycobactrium marinum, then yes, it can cause issues such as a nasty skin infection in people.


----------



## tapIG

I forgot to mention that he did have gray on his fin but it was on his dorsal fin. It was very small and had been there for at least 2 days before he passed, but once it did, it only took a few mins before it spread around the body. I know he was suffering from ammonia because the ammonia shot up overnight and even my endlers were affected by it. He didn't really go anywhere except to get air, kinda just layed down but still ate.


----------



## blue aguilar

just a quik question i have had my betta named blue for about a month now in a 1.5 gallon tank with 2 plants and a hammock leaf, water temp is 72degrees i feed in 1 or 2 times a day with tetrabetta pellets 3 or 4. I do a 40% water change every 3 0r 4 days after 2 partial changes i do a 95% water change. he is an active fish swims around quite a bit, he also comes and greets me everytime he sees me. i did a 95% water change yesterday and today i noticed he has a tiny (looks kind of like a gold flake) glittery or shinny spot on the end of his gill kind of by his lil finn. he eats and seems to be ok. all i want to know is that can his color of face change through out his growth or life? or could it be something else?


----------



## blue aguilar

the picture of blue is in my profile album if you would like to take a look. please help to figure this out thanks.


----------



## blue aguilar

the pic of blue is in our profile album, if you like to take a look and tell me what u think, i would appreciate it, just need to know if blue is getting sick or not. thanks.


----------



## Kiara1125

Please post this in a new thread.


----------



## daniella3d

Has anyone tried permanganate potassium treatment for this disease?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

For people interested in knowing more about this disease, here is an excellent write-up about it: Mycobacterial Infections of Fish


----------



## coleaini

*Graphite Disease? Please Help (PICTURE)*










I am almost certain this is what he has, I was here about a week about posting about his bulge and him acting weird and suddenly I noticed this. I am expecting the worst.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Poor little guy. That doesn't look good. I see you posted a thread with more info. I'll check it out, and reply on that thread.


----------



## MY2BETTAS

My betta is red been trying to get help since I signed upbut it looks like my beta has the same thing still no improvement


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

MY2BETTAS -

I'm sorry to hear that your fish is having problems. 

When I clicked on the link for "MY2BETTAS posts," it shows that you just have this one post above. I saw a little more information on your profile page, but there wasn't really a lot of info to go by..... 

Can you start a new thread about your fish? Click here to start it. Then, copy the information from this form, and answer the questions. If possible, please also include some photos.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hi Daniella,

Potassium permanganate is an oxidizing salt that is very effective for external issues. However, Mycobacteria often infects the fish internally as well as externally. It's thought (from the little that I've been able to find written about it) that the "graphite" coloration of the fins probably occurs due to tissue death as the internal organs begin to shut down.


----------



## daniella3d

I see, I was just wondering if anyone tried the PP treatment and if it was effective or not.

I had no idea that organ failure could cause the fins to die like that. I would be more thinking of dropsy or something similar.




LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Hi Daniella,
> 
> Potassium permanganate is an oxidizing salt that is very effective for external issues. However, Mycobacteria often infects the fish internally as well as externally. It's thought (from the little that I've been able to find written about it) that the "graphite" coloration of the fins probably occurs due to tissue death as the internal organs begin to shut down.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

That's been one of the problems. Myco presents in varied ways. The bacteria has a slow growth rate. Therefore, it's often considered a wasting condition where the fish loses overall condition. There is often not anything definitive that someone can point to and have an "Aha, I know what I'm dealing with" moment.

Sometimes, people notice lesions, or bloating, or dropsy, or other signs. Other times, the condition causes stress on the immune system, allowing secondary infections to set in. As a result, the fish dies from Columnaris or another disease. 

As for the graphite fins, I suspect that as the organs die, it's the extremities that are affected first. For people, that would be feet and hands. For fish, it would be fins. 

One of the issues with using antibiotics and/or other treatments is that they aren't effective against Myco. (It has a waxy coating which protects it.) But using antibiotics will kill the competing bacteria in the tank. This allows the Myco to have better access to nutrients, which actually promotes its growth (although it continues to remain a relatively slow growing type of bacteria).


----------



## Bcyr

I got my betta 3 weeks. Ago. Appears healthy but maybe starting to develop pop eye. I have just add 1 tbsp of aquarium salt 1tbsp per5 gallons. I just might to be overacting to his eyes. Will aquarium salt help?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hi Bcyr,

Welcome to the forum. Could you please start a new thread about your Betta? This way, more people will see it and be able to reply.

To start a new thread:
1) Click here: Diseases/Emergencies Info form..
2) Highlight and copy the information in the form.
3) Return the Diseases/Emergencies forum. Start a new thread by clicking the "New Thread" button (located above the list of current theads).
4) Past the Info form into your post. Answer the questions as best you can. If possible, post photos too.

Doing this will give people information about your fish and his current condition.


----------



## juanitawolf

i bought a betta and he was in perfect condition but then i saw this grey-brownish spot in his tail and now hour later he has a hole, help me, i dont want him to die D:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/23rsoso.jpg


----------



## Kiara1125

That's just a tear. It's nothing to worry or stress about. Although, it looks like your betta might have fin rot as well. Or maybe he's recovering. I can't tell all that well from the picture. You should either create a new thread for suggestions or do 100% water changes daily to help his tail grow back.


----------



## myexplodingcat

juanitawolf said:


> i bought a betta and he was in perfect condition but then i saw this grey-brownish spot in his tail and now hour later he has a hole, help me, i dont want him to die D:
> 
> http://oi62.tinypic.com/23rsoso.jpg


Use some aquarium salt in your tank to help it along, keep the water super clean and warm, and use an antibacterial treatment.

Here's a good page about betta diseases.
http://bubblesandbettas.blogspot.com/p/betta-diseases.html

See the pinhole fin rot? Looks familiar, right?

Also, you might want to make sure you're doing enough water changes, and using good water conditioner like Prime.

Find out if your water changes are enough:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115758

Hope that helps. If he keeps having problems, post a new thread about it so you can get help.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Does it always start with the fins or...


----------



## Kiara1125

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Does it always start with the fins or...


A LOT of bettas in my local Meijer and Walmart are looking like this. They tend to get tumors afterwards. I don't believe it's graphite disease, but I've never bought a betta that was "infected" to observe it. Please watch him closely and update!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Kiara1125 said:


> A LOT of bettas in my local Meijer and Walmart are looking like this. They tend to get tumors afterwards. I don't believe it's graphite disease, but I've never bought a betta that was "infected" to observe it. Please watch him closely and update!


It's my aunts fish that she had for a year, last time I saw him at Christmas he didn't have it


----------



## daniella3d

Ok, I came upon this article and I am a bit skeptical. Can a simple UV sterilizer help cure this disease???? What do you think?

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j..._YHoCA&usg=AFQjCNFXlFACXwGs-DLMBlXM1lMVWjyP1g


----------



## TheBlur

Hey guys, this isn't my fish but a fellow poster on here was asking about their fish's tail... does this look like graphite disease to you? I sure hope not...


http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=400682


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Hi Daniella,

I just wrote a long post, which BF then promptly ate.... *Sigh*

UV light is effective at inactivating many types of bacteria, including some species of Mycobacterium. (A few types of Myco, such as M. avium, are more resistant to UV light.)

The UV sterilizer that she's using is meant to inactivate bacteria in the water. This will reduce the number of Mycobacterium spp, especially since Myco is a slower-growing type of bacteria. However, UV sterilizers are relatively expensive, so most people won't invest in them.

Also, it won't "cure" infected fish, since the infection is often internal. (Myco often infects the internal organs. Granulomas are often seen on the organs during necropsy.) So the UV light may help reduce the concentration of Myco in the water, which can slow down the rate of infection in healthy (uninfected) fish. But it won't inactive the internal bacteria already inside an infected fish.

Here are some good articles:

Inactivation of Mycobacterium avium Complex by UV Irradiation - Has some graphs showing the concentration of M. avium at different UV dosages. As the UV dosage increases, the concentration of M. avium declines.

Efficacy of Ultraviolet Irradiation in Controlling the Spread of Tuberculosis - This study was done at a hospital. When UVGI was used, there was an 83-98% reduction in the amount of some species of Myco. However, effectiveness was related to the relative humidity of the air. At higher humidity levels, UV was less effective. 

(Dear BF: please don't eat my post again! This one is a lot shorter, so maybe you'll be happier with it.)

P.S. Thank you for posting a link to that article. I hadn't read it before!


----------



## daniella3d

Yes I know, but did you read the article? She or he claim that the UV cured the disease even in the infected fish. That's why I said I am skeptical about it. How can it cure something internal?

Seem that it was really the mycobacterium as it was identified in her fish, but then how can infected fish regain health because of a UV? She claims that the UV helped take care of other pathogen in the tank so the fish could have enough immunity to actualy fight the mycobacter, or something like that.

Do you beleive it could be true?



LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Hi Daniella,
> 
> I just wrote a long post, which BF then promptly ate.... *Sigh*
> 
> UV light is effective at inactivating many types of bacteria, including some species of Mycobacterium. (A few types of Myco, such as M. avium, are more resistant to UV light.)
> 
> The UV sterilizer that she's using is meant to inactivate bacteria in the water. This will reduce the number of Mycobacterium spp, especially since Myco is a slower-growing type of bacteria. However, UV sterilizers are relatively expensive, so most people won't invest in them.
> 
> Also, it won't "cure" infected fish, since the infection is often internal. (Myco often infects the internal organs. Granulomas are often seen on the organs during necropsy.) So the UV light may help reduce the concentration of Myco in the water, which can slow down the rate of infection in healthy (uninfected) fish. But it won't inactive the internal bacteria already inside an infected fish.
> 
> Here are some good articles:
> 
> Inactivation of Mycobacterium avium Complex by UV Irradiation - Has some graphs showing the concentration of M. avium at different UV dosages. As the UV dosage increases, the concentration of M. avium declines.
> 
> Efficacy of Ultraviolet Irradiation in Controlling the Spread of Tuberculosis - This study was done at a hospital. When UVGI was used, there was an 83-98% reduction in the amount of some species of Myco. However, effectiveness was related to the relative humidity of the air. At higher humidity levels, UV was less effective.
> 
> (Dear BF: please don't eat my post again! This one is a lot shorter, so maybe you'll be happier with it.)
> 
> P.S. Thank you for posting a link to that article. I hadn't read it before!


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Yes, I read the article....

No, I don't believe that the UV light "cured" the Myco-infected fish. I also didn't see anyplace that she made this claim, either.... Can you point out the specific location(s) where she claims that UV light cures an infected fish? 

My interpretation is that she believes the UV light:
a) killed the Myco so her uninfected fish remained uninfected, and
b) killed off other pathogens, thereby preventing a secondary infection. And since there was no secondary infection, the fish's immune system was able to control the Myco - allowing it to remain healthy (at least for a longer than it would have been otherwise).

IMO, this is kind of like HIV leading to AIDS. It's often not the AIDS that kills the patient, it's a secondary disease that sets in when the body's immune system starts to fail. If the patient is able to avoid a secondary infection, he/she will live longer. And if the patient manages the condition, say by taking the appropriate medications, he/she will live longer too.... But the HIV infection doesn't go away. It's just that the patient lives longer, or is healthier for a longer period of time.

Myco causes a wasting disease. It gradually spreads throughout the internal organs. As the immune system fights it, the fish becomes prone to secondary infection. So if you can kill off the other pathogens, you may be able to keep the fish from getting sick with something else (and then dying as a result). But there is no way to "cure" the Myco. All you can do is minimize stressors (such as contact with other pathogens). If you do that, then the fish can probably live longer. But it's not "cured." It still has a Mycobacterial infection.

In the article, she writes: _"My own experience suggests that mildly infected fish can control their disease to some extent."_ (p3) And she includes a footnote that says: _"In human tuberculosis, only 10% of humans infected with Mycobacterium tuberculosis ever develop TB."_ (p4)

By "control," I believe she means that the fish doesn't display an active infection.

But I didn't see anyplace where she says that an infected fish can cure itself. In fact, she says: _"There is no cure for MB and none on the horizon. Quarantining and good fish husbandry (Table 4) are probably more effective than trying to eradicate EM, which are part of any fish’s normal environment."_

She writes that she "manages" the disease. To me, this is far different from "curing" it. In the closing photo, she shows a tank that had a Myco outbreak, and writes: _"All survived the 2005 MB outbreak, but some seem to have a shortened lifespan. In 2010, I euthanized two fish that had developed hunchbacks or become emaciated. Many fish that were born shortly after the 2004 outbreak continue to do well as of 2013."_

So again, there is no mention of curing it, only of managing it.

I do feel it's an excellent article. I'm surprised it didn't come up in my internet searches. So thank you again for posting the link


----------



## daniella3d

Yes you are right about everything. I had misunderstood the meaning of managing the disease. What was surprising to me is that she was only using a 8 watt UV, so I guess that with bacterias, even such bacteria with waxy body, a UV is really effective in killing it and preventing it from contaminating other fish.



LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Yes, I read the article....
> 
> No, I don't believe that the UV light "cured" the Myco-infected fish. I also didn't see anyplace that she made this claim, either.... Can you point out the specific location(s) where she claims that UV light cures an infected fish?
> 
> My interpretation is that she believes the UV light:
> a) killed the Myco so her uninfected fish remained uninfected, and
> b) killed off other pathogens, thereby preventing a secondary infection. And since there was no secondary infection, the fish's immune system was able to control the Myco - allowing it to remain healthy (at least for a longer than it would have been otherwise).


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

It's more important that the light be the correct wavelength (frequency). 

Shorter wavelength (higher frequency) light, such as UV light, has a high amount of energy. This is true even when the intensity (amplitude) of the light is low.

So UV light even when dim, has a higher amount of energy than much brighter long wavelength light (such as red or infrared light).

(This is an aspect of the photoelectric effect, which was determined by Albert Einstein and Max Planck. Interestingly, Einstein won the Nobel Prize for his work on the photoelectric effect, and not his better know Theory of Relativity.... But I digress....  )


----------



## daniella3d

At some point I just thought that UV sterilizer were a gimmink and not really efficient but now that I see this article, I see it could be really helpfull especially in a drip system like mine where I have 20 fish connected.

I installed a 55 watt UV last week and it will stay there 24/7.



LittleBlueFishlets said:


> It's more important that the light be the correct wavelength (frequency).
> 
> Shorter wavelength (higher frequency) light, such as UV light, has a high amount of energy. This is true even when the intensity (amplitude) of the light is low.
> 
> So UV light even when dim, has a higher amount of energy than much brighter long wavelength light (such as red or infrared light).
> 
> (This is an aspect of the photoelectric effect, which was determined by Albert Einstein and Max Planck. Interestingly, Einstein won the Nobel Prize for his work on the photoelectric effect, and not his better know Theory of Relativity.... But I digress....  )


----------



## kphillips0899

will be getting this asap. Better safe than sorry when dealing with lives  

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-supplies/uv-sterilizer/ps/c/3578/4393


----------



## Crembrufundew

Is it able to strike, Salt, my half cellophane, milky white halfmoon marble with light purple and sky blue marbling?


----------



## michellemoyah

99% sure this is what killed my new betta. I don't have pictures yet (I'll take some once I remove his body) but his body lost all color last night and he was having lots of trouble swimming in any direction. His fins were gray on the edges and now the gray is almost halfway down his fins and his body is gray as well. He was dead when I got up this morning, it seemed to have killed him quite literally overnight.


----------



## michellemoyah

Do you think if I bleach and then boil the heater, filter and acrylic tank and leave it to dry in the sun it will be safe for a new fish?


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Try white vinegar


----------



## hottestwinter

I know you all have been talking about this new disease. I had a betta once before he was about 5yrs old when he died. I recently bought a new one and I noticed he has been acting weird from when I first bought him. Tuesday his tail was fine and yesterday his tail is almost gone. I thought he had fin rot and I have been treating him for it. But today his tail is worst than the other day and he has started slamming himself all over the tank. But he has a healthy appetite. I was wondering if you all had any ideas. it doesn't sound a 100% like what you guys had described above in posts.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

hottestwinter said:


> I know you all have been talking about this new disease. I had a betta once before he was about 5yrs old when he died. I recently bought a new one and I noticed he has been acting weird from when I first bought him. Tuesday his tail was fine and yesterday his tail is almost gone. I thought he had fin rot and I have been treating him for it. But today his tail is worst than the other day and he has started slamming himself all over the tank. But he has a healthy appetite. I was wondering if you all had any ideas. it doesn't sound a 100% like what you guys had described above in posts.


You should start your own thread and post a pic, sounds like he might have a fungus


----------



## LadyRaven

Just thought I pop a post in here seeing as my friends fish died the other day. I had left another friend in charge of feeding my fish and the other one my neighbour has, she had to leave for a few days (like 2) and when we came back on the same day, found Fabian dead at the bottom of the tank.
The friend that was looking after them said that Fabian had been depressed/not moving from next to the heater. He would eat and come up for air but that was it. We chalked it down to depression as 2 of his tankmates had recently died.


----------



## Kiara1125

LadyRaven, that is most definitely graphite disease. Did the friend say if he was acting weird that day or the day before?


----------



## LadyRaven

He'd apparently been acting like that for quite a while, almost a week. He used to flit around the tank as happy as could be, then just became more and more lethargic it seems.


----------



## BettasRUs

My Betta died from what I assume was this today. :/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14763895205/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14760716731/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14577253438/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14763447212/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14740882416/in/photostream/


----------



## Basement Bettas

Fish don't get depressed. That is a human emotion. Fish get sick.


----------



## Kiara1125

Basement Bettas said:


> Fish don't get depressed. That is a human emotion. Fish get sick.


People think they know how animals work, but they don't. Why do elephants mourn for days after a member of the herd has died? They feel loss, they feel upset ... animals will even starve themselves due to the depression that occurs when a member they love has died or been lost. People who think they know animals are the ones who will be the most surprised.

Anyone can breed fish, but it doesn't mean that you know everything about the species. Same goes for any other animal.


----------



## Basement Bettas

Nwar


----------



## Mel Huffman

This graphite disease is very similar to a disease us "old school" discus fish breeders and keepers have to watch out for, but we don't call it graphite disease, we would just call it discus disease because we never figured any other species had similar symptoms. Since discus come from a completely different biome, it's interesting we have introduced them, bred them silly, and now we are seeing various similar bacterial-induced surges of symptoms we cannot yet identify. 

Within the discus community, I think there is a line of thought it is a Myo. sort of bacteria. Recommend always using gloves, not out of contracting the bacteria, but out of any risk of mutation and cross-species contamination should you come across a large population of rapid skin to skin spread. 

In the discus community, we treat with immediate QT, very high temps (up to 94 degs- VERY slowly- not sure if bettas can live at this high temp)- epsom salt, Metro, and what we call intensive support: 50% water change twice a day, offered food thrice a day with cleanup immediately 5 mins later, allowing the fish to remain in QT with other sick fish they GET ALONG with, plenty of SOFT black water conditions (Indian Almond, in this case), Mongolian drift wood, low light, lots of hiding places, etc. Basically... baby them.

Clean water. Clean, clean, clean water. And always remember to redose after water change, so do your math carefully, use pharmaceutical grade meds (become friendly with a vet and actually get prescriptions- real antibiotics are actually about 5 cents every 10 pills!) and you'll save a TON of money by using a vet over the phone since most of them won't see your fish. 

Here's a tip: Visit your local vet in person (try a smaller "family run" sort). Explain you'd like some time with the vet without an animal. Meet with them and explain your situation. Most days, they'll schedule a 15-min call and write a "fish-grade" prescription when you need one and you will save a fortune by picking up an antibiotic 2-3 grams of power vs. that commercial crap. Plus you can redose MUCH easier with powder that costs $2-3 vs. $9 for a box that lasts 2 doses. 

When I had discus my fish were 600-800 dollars per fish. So my vet was very much obliged to help me.  Now that I have bettas, we still have a great relationship and the same can work for you too with a good "long" relationship. 

Also regarding the UV sterilizer... it's also about how LONG the water is exposed to the UV light. If it runs through a longer line against the UV light inside the compartment, then the UV sterilizer is MUCH more effective.


----------



## Mel Huffman

A few other questions:
1.) Has anyone performed a Fite's stain, Ziehl-Neelsen stain, or Kinyoun stain on scale scrapings, lung scrapings, or fin scrapings? 
2.) If found as mycobacterium, the insertion of mycobacteriophage that is both harmless to humans and fish could be a natural way to induce death to mycobacteria without introduction of harmful antibiotics that could create resistant myco-mutation.
3.) Also, if you're interested on myco and water qual, you can view the following on a prelim water study focused on myco: http://aem.asm.org/content/71/10/5719.full


----------



## TerriGtoo

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> You should start your own thread and post a pic, sounds like he might have a fungus


We can't really be sure it might just be fungus from the description. More description needs to be given. Photos would be indispensible. Please do not start treating for fungus until we know more. If ir isn't fungus and you treat for it he will be weakened and not be in any shape for the correct meds.if you have started a thread, please include all you can describe os his condition and phtos on it.


----------



## TerriGtoo

Basement Bettas said:


> Fish don't get depressed. That is a human emotion. Fish get sick.


Agreed. We must be care of anthropomorphizing our animal friends. To attribute human characteristics may do moe harm than good. Espeially when it comes to health issues.


----------



## hpascoa

*I think mind has it too*

Unfortunately I think the betta I bought for my daughter has this too. I am posting a picture with flash. I couldn't see the dark tissue around his head until I took this photo with the flash. I have had him about 6 days and he stopped eating after day 3, I bought a larger aquarium, had the water tested, added a filter and a heater and he kept getting worse.


----------



## spaceyJC

I'm terrified that my little Norbert might have this disease. He looked fine when I left the house today, and then I came back three hours later. He looks like he's slowly turning grey, it seems harder for him to swim, and his eyes look irritated and red. If this disease is going to take him, I hope it happens fast so he doesn't suffer 
He's still alive, so what can I do to save him? Can I do anything? It's horrible to watch him this way...


----------



## spaceyJC

Here's some pictures of my poor Norbert. I think he might have this disease, the symptoms have come up in only 3 hours.

Here's a pic of him healthy:









And here he is today. Not lookin' so good:









In the previous picture you can see his scratch he got yesterday. Could that have contributed to this sickness he has?
Also, I cleaned his tank yesterday, so the water is clean.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

spaceyJC - 

I don't see the "today" photo. However, it sounds like he may have a bacterial infection. 

In the "healthy" photo, his caudal (tail) fin looks a bit ragged and dark. This can indicate fin rot.

How large is the tank, and how often do you change the water? 

I would start by doing a series of large, partial water changes. This will remove any ammonia, toxins and bacteria in the water.

Then, I would try using a gram-negative antibiotic. My choice for fin issues is the furan group, which includes any of these meds: API Furan 2, Hikari Bifuran, or Jungle Fungus Clear.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Mel Huffman said:


> A few other questions:
> 1.) Has anyone performed a Fite's stain, Ziehl-Neelsen stain, or Kinyoun stain on scale scrapings, lung scrapings, or fin scrapings?
> 2.) If found as mycobacterium, the insertion of mycobacteriophage that is both harmless to humans and fish could be a natural way to induce death to mycobacteria without introduction of harmful antibiotics that could create resistant myco-mutation.
> 3.) Also, if you're interested on myco and water qual, you can view the following on a prelim water study focused on myco: http://aem.asm.org/content/71/10/5719.full


Mel -

Yes, the disease was positively identified as Myco by both Basement Bettas and Coppermoon. (They sent fish out for laboratory analysis.) They're both well-known breeders, so they may be interested in your treatment protocols.


----------



## FanOfCR7

*Thank you*

Hey Sakura8, thanks for letting us know :shock:that is really freaky.


----------



## FingerPainter94

*My betta is sick*

Hi guys,

Can you please tell me what is wrong with my fish and how I can treat it...thanks in advance


----------



## TerriGtoo

FingerPainter94 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Can you please tell me what is wrong with my fish and how I can treat it...thanks in advance


 
We need more information. What is it you are worried about? Please fill in the questionaire in the sticky.


----------



## FingerPainter94

*My Betta is sick*

Sorry,

My fish has a large infection, as pictured (under his eye), that seems to be rotting the 'skin'. I have only had him for 2 weeks. He is in a small unfiltered tank (I have successfully had other betta's in there before). He has become lethargic, loss of appetite and constantly hiding. Occasionally he swims around, however remains close to the top of the water level. 
I'm not sure which questionnaire you are talking about, please direct me to the page...

Thanks again


----------



## LadyRaven

Means this questionnaire:

Housing 
What size is your tank?
What temperature is your tank?
Does your tank have a filter?
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
Is your tank heated?
What tank mates does your betta fish live with?

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
How often do you feed your betta fish?

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
When did you start noticing the symptoms?
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?
Does your fish have any history of being ill?
How old is your fish (approximately)?


----------



## FingerPainter94

*Tank is about 2L
*Tank is kept at room temperature
*Tank has no filtration or air stone
*Tank is not heated
*My betta is alone in the tank

*I feed him around 2 pellets twice a day (although not of late, because of sickness)

*I change water at least twice a week. Once at 75% change then 100%. The only thing I add is conditioner

*I have not tested the water.

*I started noticing differences about a week ago. Thought maybe it might be because of the cold weather. It has heated up slightly, but noticed this fungal type infection just below the eye. He has began to stop swimming around, stopped eating and constantly hiding. He rests very close to the top of the water level (appears dead) for most of the day.


----------



## LadyRaven

I don't mean to sound mean or anything but as a lot of the people on this forum will tell you, That tank is WAY too small, especially unfiltered. I'm new to this whole thing myself but even I know that. Also bettas NEED a heater. Room temp is never enough. Temp must be kept between 77 and 80 Fahrenheit (25-27 celsius) (off the top of my head)

That could be the problem to begin with, though I've never seen that before. They don't even look that well if they didn't have the infection there. But as to what it is, I don't know. Maybe someone else has something?


----------



## FingerPainter94

Ok thanks heaps


----------



## FingerPainter94

*My Betta is sick*

Here is another photo. The thing I am worried about is just below/behind his eye. I have quarantined him to try and get rid of that nasty looking thing...


----------



## LadyRaven

What have you done in terms of medication anyway? That might help others understand.


----------



## FingerPainter94

I haven't attempted anything. I though I would come here first to get some advice. I don't really know what to do.


----------



## LadyRaven

Neither. Maybe start your own thread in the emergencies and diseases section. A lot more would look at that there than here.


----------



## FingerPainter94

Ok thanks for your help


----------



## LadyRaven

No problems.


----------



## Wmctalon

I stumbled onto this thread and although I didn't read through every page (55 is a bit daunting!) it seems like there's still not any effective method of treating this infection. For others that are veterinary students, if this is indeed a mycobacterium infection, has anyone else seen the research about bacterial efflux pump inhibitors paired with antibiotics as a possible mechanism of treatment? 
Does anyone think that it's a possible theory to be able to use these with bettas, as some of the original research was done on zebrafish?

Some of the articles I was looking at:
Hypertension drugs help fight tuberculosis

Effects of Verapamil (an EPI candidate) on zebrafish

Infections in Zebrafish


----------



## Zhylis

...well, at least now I know what it is. I've never seen ANYTHING this virulent. Un-flipping-believable.

Late last night, I had a ~9month blue delta tail showing early signs of this. Lethargic but still taking food, what initially looked like columnaris on his caudal. This morning, most of his caudal and dorsal appears stiff and ashy grey/black. Started salt + Furan2 at 4PM. The necrotic(?) areas have completely disintegrated now, looking grim but trying to continue treatment. 

Hindsight being 20/20, this probably is what killed my female a couple days ago. Watching my teal marbles like a hawk now... This is going to require the "nuke-'em-from-orbit" option for cleanup, isn't it? GRRRRRRR.


----------



## Zhylis

Found the blue delta dead this morning. Shutting down the tanks and nuking.

Any new info on pathogen, correlation with blue bettas, or potential treatments? (Aside from the link to acute myco.)


----------



## ElyseK

Now that I'm thinking about this I think this is what killed my fish today. He was a blue/green dragon scale betta. I noticed about a week ago that he had a tad bit of fin rot, so I wiped it out with triple sulfa. Then yesterday I noticed he was more lethargic then usual. This morning I wake up and Pete is dead  I noticed he had gray on his fins and on a small part of his body. R.I.P. Pistol Pete (my dad came up with the pistol part xD)


----------



## vaida

Hi.I have my first betta fish already one month. I thing something wrong with him cos he change his collour and lost fins. My fish tank PH is 8.4, KH 20, NO2- 0.5 and i know that can cost illness for Betta fish. Pls help me to find out what i do wrong and how to treat him.


----------



## Honeybun93

I had a blue male betta named Tango which I believe was affected by this disease. I bought him from Petco and had him for about 4 months.. In a matter of hours he went to looking healthy to having his fins decaying. They were a weird greyish yellow color which I thought was odd. By the next day his fins were completely decayed and I knew he basically had no chance. I kept him alive as long as I could before he passed. It was very sad...


----------



## RavenLenore13

*The Tale of Id the Fish*

Sunday Id was fine. 
No obvious problem Monday morning. 
Tail almost totally black & starting to pine cone under his chin by Monday 4pm. 
Water change, Prime, & Triple Sulfa. 
This morning, Tuesday, the black took over the back of his body
Full pinecone, but no swelling. 
Died around 1:30-2pm today, Tuesday. 

Rest in peace, little Id
We didn't have you long enough. 

Thank you for starting this thread. 
It's the only thing telling me that I'm not alone 
& there was likely never anything I could have done to save him.


http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=5791970#post5791970


----------



## LadyRaven

Sorry to hear about your loss, he looks like my boy Teemo, so pretty.
I'm worried for him now, seems that people who have they're boys die are all blue in shade


----------



## RavenLenore13

Here's what he looked like 7 weeks ago...
Flared & unflared. 

He never did completely unclamp his fins the entire time I had him...
Only flared that one day (via mirror)


----------



## Monkey 1338

*yes thats it*

I should have read this before I posted about my betta. Thats exactly what mine looks like. He is dark blue/purple. It definately is affecting his swimming. This doesnt look good does it? Man, what should I do? I dont want him to suffer.


----------



## Korie

*Sick Betta w lump*

Hello,
I own 3 Betta fish in a divided tank at my home in Boise, Idaho. I don’t believe there is an aquatic vet here in town so this is the only other place I could think of to turn for help. I have one male Betta that I’ve have for a little over a month now. He came to me looking a bit run down , not too interested in eating and swimming around normally, so I put him in a filtered, heated tank and he seemed to get much better within a few days. Then, about a week after putting him in the tank I cleaned the bottom which stirred up some debris and then noticed the next day he began to grow a small black lump on his cheek between his gill and mouth. The lump grew a bit and has now changed from black to white. It isn’t a tumor looking lump, more a lump of scales as it is un even and flat on the bottom. I have researched as best as I can online and read it could be from breeding (as he is silver and I guess the metallic ones are more prone to such things?) or it could be from an infected cut, or even a virus called lymphocytes. Im not at all sure which one he is ailing from but all in all his temperament is totally normal, he eats like a champ and swims around like he is happy. Again, he is in a divided tank and I worry that quarantining him could make him miserable as he is so happy and shows no signs of stress. Thank you so much for reading my message and if there are any ideas that could be thrown my way I would so appreciate it. I could take a picture and would be so happy to do so for my little friend as I love him so much! Thank you again for all your time and trouble!

Housing 
What size is your tank? 10 gallon divided so 3.3 gallons each
What temperature is your tank? 80 degrees
Does your tank have a filter? under gravel
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? one airstone in each section
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? tabiko and pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? two-three pieces twice a day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 25% each week with vacuuming
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 25-50%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? backwater extract and a water conditioner to remove chlorine and IAL

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0- none
Nitrate: 0- none
pH: 7.0
Hardness: slightly hard
Alkalinity: slightly alkaline

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? only the lump
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? no, happy, eats, bubbles, swims, flares
When did you start noticing the symptoms? day after cleaning the tank about two weeks after getting him
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? black water extract and IAL tiny bit of dissolved aquarium salt
Does your fish have any history of being ill? he came to me not looking so good then perked up after being introduced to the bigger tank and has acted happy since 
How old is your fish (approximately)? unsure really, bought at petsmart and he was an adult size


----------



## RandomlytrueXD

In the space of six days my little Merlin has lost half of his Anal fin, and now on the sixth day the edge of his tail fin has started to grey at the tips. 

On Thursday 26/02/2015 i noticed the tip of Merlin's Anal fin had turned a brownish black color, i instantly searched up what it could be then went down to my local pet store where i have a friend who knows a bit about fish, He told me it didnt look like anything too serious, and said it could be a really really minor case of finrot, in any case i got him some Antifungus and finrot solution, i cleaned his tank and then added the solution. Merlin was acting completly normal on this day and was eating with his usual big appetite.

Friday 27/02/2015 The Dark color on his anal fin had spread to half way up his fin, he would stay in one corner from morning to early afternoon, i again went to the petshop and asked again what they though, and they said it was moving too quick to be Finrot, but they werent sure as they hadnt seen anything like it before, so i bought a new water testing kit. His water was in perfect condition. So i again cleaned his tank to get rid of the parts of his fins that where just floating in the water, after the water change he was back to swimming about happily which installed some hope in me, and his appetite remained the same as always.

Saturday-Sunday He was his normal happy self, he played and ate as usual, the grey piece where slowly falling off, one piece remained by the end of sunday which had turned black. I changed his water once over the weekend.

Monday 02/03/2015 Installed alot of hope in me that he was finally getting over this, the black piece was slowly flaking off and bar getting used to swimming with a smaller fin, Merlin was pretty happy.

Today 03/03/2015 I read a comment on the forum i had been posting on about merlins progression with what i first thought to be Finrot, and was refereed to this forum, and then i went over and said hi to Merlin...who happily greeted me...the black piece had finally fallen off...but it was then that i saw a tiny white/grey mark on the edge of his tail fin...And i just cried not knowing what else to do because it wasn't over...and so far from all ive read is that there isnt any hope for him.

Please someone tell me that there is a cure, that i can somehow save him, I've called up numerous vets and no one will look at a fish.
Has anyone had a betta who has contracted this disease but has survived it?
i really need some help, i dont want my boy to die :'(

(Here are some Progression Shots of the spread, sorry if some of the pictures are bad quality)


----------



## historygeek402

Wait a minute I just now saw this. I lost Asa today. I was mystified at what was wrong with him until I read this. I joined yesterday because I needed help with his illness. He started to get lethargic last week but he was still eating. Whatever he had mimicked fin rot so I treated him for fin rot. There was absolutely no change. Then his blue gills underneath him turned white and spread very quickly to the end of his tail to the rest of his body. I ordered every medication for him that I could find, I had him in salt. Nothing seemed to help. The last two days he went from being sort of active and eating to complete loss of appetite and he went downhill quickly. Whatever he had was aggressive and it was fast, and it mimicked at least two different diseases but the usual treatments didn't help. I hope it isn't contagious because I have another one. Elsa is in her own tank though, but they have been near each other and I may have mixed up their faux plants.


----------



## Chester41585

This is tragic, but interesting. Has anyone had any die-offs in the past two months (since the last post)?
Any other developments?


----------



## TerriGtoo

Yes, unfortunately. Some members have reported this recently. Do a search for graphite disease on this site.


----------



## einstein sep2013

*Brown spot*

can you please tell me what shall I do to cure this.

suddenly happened. Today he didn't eat pellets but ate the frozen worm. moving very slow today - still active & reacts


----------



## nightress18

*Need help. My betta fish's tale is receding and I don't know what it is .*








this is my male betta. His tail is receding and I don't know what's wrong or how to treat it. Need help right away please.


----------



## GayathriGG

Has there been any progress on the cure? :blueworry:
Or is it still labelled incurable?:roll:


----------



## Raspy

Unfortunately I've just come back from work to find my betta dead. I'd been battling with some fin rot - of which was just under control and the tail was growing back. This morning (7.30am) he displayed this graphite patchy tail, didn't eat and wasn't swimming. By the evening (6pm) he'd passed. This is the second betta I've lost to this disease now, I'm hoping that some answers start coming through!

Here's some pictures of the disease, though these were taking (perhaps hours) after death.

http://i.imgur.com/ZceziGG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0dXruZx.jpg


----------



## betta fish lover2323

Omg. MY DARLING IS BLUE:shock:


----------



## Coppermoon

Guys, this is Mycos. There is no cure. This can spread to humans also, so please be careful. Tanks can be bleached 50/50 for about 7 days, then wiped clean and sprayed down with 91% iso alcohol and let set for 24 to 48 hrs. They should be safe to reuse by then. When I had it, I bought hospital grade solution that kills TB (human mycobacterium) and STILL let my equipment set empty for 3 months before I got more. IF you see these signs, put the fish down. There is no saving it. I am being hard nosed about this...I've been through it. I put down close to 100 fish in 1 day because of this. I understand these are your pets. All these fish were my babies!!!...the youngest ones were 3rd and 4th generation for me. I cried for weeks after that. I felt even more horrible that I let the ones that DID show signs suffer for months before they died. This disease eats the fish alive for the most part.

PLEASE quit referring to it as "graphite disease"...it is Mycobacterium. It can only be diagnosed by a lab that has to take a live fish (dead fish decompose too fast) and cut it up and look under a microscope. Every picture I see posted, I see my fish and what I went through.

If daily clean water and salt for 7 days don't stop fin rot, then it probably isn't fin rot.

ADDITION: I sent a single fish with a friend as she was going through the same thing. ALL 6 fish (she sent 5 plus my 1) as positive for Mycos. I sent 5 more fish to be diagnosed by a lab in FL. I think I still have the emails from the lab. I got a phone call from the Manager of the lab and she told me it was mycos. I didn't have the strain IDed...what was the point in spending more money...still no cure.


----------



## emmy38

*Q*

Question What dose this look like before it gets very bad?


----------



## tunafish239

*Is this Fish TB/Mycos?*

Hi all, I've been reading about Mycobacterium in fish (which is what Coppermoon was referring to) and now I'm terrified.
Some history:
My betta has been mostly normal aside from occasional swim fits into the rounded corners of her aquarium. This includes swimming, eating, activity, etc.

For a while now she has what looks like an indentation in her side. It could be a depression or it could be from a curved spine I'm not sure.

She lives in a 4 gallon tank treated by TopFin Betta Water Conditioner and Aquaeon Betta Bowl Plus Water Conditioner. It has a filter and a heater, and sits with the black/opaque filter side facing a window. I haven't moderated aquarium temps before but current water parameters are as follows:
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10-20ppm (it was close between the two)

I never formally cycled it, but the values indicate that it may have cycled itself? Is that possible?

She's been in this tank for about a month now, with one 100% change about a week ago.

Since then I took the four attached pictures. Her head has become increasingly more grey with time and is grey even when she's at her most vibrant. She has perpetual faint stress stripes that developed several weeks ago. Her body has been deformed for nearly two months. 

Please help me, I will respond speedily with answers to questions you may have.


----------



## VenomCT

I'm not sure if there's something wrong with my fishes fins or if it's just his coloring. I got him from petco 2 days ago so it's very possible that he's sick he was just so beautiful I couldn't resist .-.


----------



## fishloverhkf12

Not sure if its the same thing but my female betta last night looked a bit burned at a tiny area on her top fin but i thought this was just her pattern or smth but this morning i woke up half her body looked burned and black though she is still alive now but i know she wont live any longer for a fe more minutes or hours she is sitting on the bottom on one side just breathing though i want to end her misery cause shes suffering so much T.T


----------



## BettaGirl47

I just got a betta 2 days agao from PetSmart. He was staying in the bottom of the container but moved around still. I just thought that he was stressed because he has large fins and in that small cup for who knows how long. Went and got him a tank with a filter and light, stones from the bottom, a resting leaf, red fake plant for him to hide around and a black oriental style decoration. When I got home I had noticed he was not swimming around at all in the cup (was still setting up his tank) so I looked up what may have been wrong with him and all I could find was possible swim bladder disorder or disease. Looking at this thread now I am scared he may have whatever this is. He has a black head and he faces to a very dark rich blue (his name is Cobalt) and if this disease affects blue bettas I am scared he has it. What are the early warning signs so I know how long he has and how long I can keep him comfortable and as happy as I can make him? He is also not eating or moving much now and seems to have trouble getting to the surface even with the filter off. Please any help with anything that may be wrong with Cobalt will me so much


----------



## BettaGirl47

BettaGirl47 said:


> I just got a betta 2 days agao from PetSmart. He was staying in the bottom of the container but moved around still. I just thought that he was stressed because he has large fins and in that small cup for who knows how long. Went and got him a tank with a filter and light, stones from the bottom, a resting leaf, red fake plant for him to hide around and a black oriental style decoration. When I got home I had noticed he was not swimming around at all in the cup (was still setting up his tank) so I looked up what may have been wrong with him and all I could find was possible swim bladder disorder or disease. Looking at this thread now I am scared he may have whatever this is. He has a black head and he faces to a very dark rich blue (his name is Cobalt) and if this disease affects blue bettas I am scared he has it. What are the early warning signs so I know how long he has and how long I can keep him comfortable and as happy as I can make him? He is also not eating or moving much now and seems to have trouble getting to the surface even with the filter off. Please any help with anything that may be wrong with Cobalt will me so much


Edit: I went to check on Cobalt and he had what I can best describe as a seizure and fell to the bottom of his tank and stopped moving


----------



## Aquastar

Guys, I need help with this disease. It the same type of concept as Graphite, but it's different. Other than it being non contagious, I want to know if it's the same type of thing?
The fins rots away, but it's not black, I made a thread on it:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=6821769#post6821769

I understand I seem like those people who must post about their pretty fish all the time, but I think new diseases are more important. Help?


----------



## razzhasbettas

Wow. This just punched me in the face - I just realized this is what my poor VT Atlas died of in November. I was so sad and shocked that it happened so fast - in just a couple hours. Unfortunately I flushed him...


----------



## LittleStar

I've been reading about this, and please don't laugh - but I really think heavy metal contamination is going on here at least in part. Google geoengineering one word just like that, our entire environment is being contaminated by aluminum and its sprayed in such minute particulate that its being absorbed into marine life and fish in the wild are showing symptoms of this. I think it self replicates. I know thats science fiction creepy but that's what I think. Our natural environment is not so natural, any more.

Test him for aluminum, that's what I say.


----------



## Melcam

*Is this mystery disease?*

Hi there, my blue betta Drogo isn't looking good. He was fine yesterday flaring and swimming well. But this morning I notice his pectoral fin and the tissue around it is dark gray and looks necrotic. He's not using the fin at all. I haven't noticed any fungus on him recently, he's been doing great in his planted, cycled, divided 10g (filtered, heated, I keep up with water changes and gravel vac). Water params are perfect. I removed him from the tank and took this photo. I'm worried for my tank and the snails, shrimp, and other Betta in the tank. Is this mystery disease? Columnaris? I don't know what I should do next. This really sucks, I really like this fish. Thanks.


----------



## ThatFishThough

Good friggin lord. Is this still going around?!?!


----------



## leviathanxx

I made a post about this recently, it killed my betta. Oh man... that's scary. Unfortunately, I can't submit his body because I already buried him.


----------



## Skittle18

I just got on...I had already flushed my poor betta Fraser (sky blue veil tail) who had all these symptoms including dropsy, Popeye and more I couldn't determine as he was already dead. It happens over night, his water was in perfect conditions, temp and everything. I'm really sad to see him go...I'm really sorry I didn't take any pics but I can describe things for you if need be....


----------



## BettaStarter24

Just lost my DTPK Maui to possibly this mystery disease. Hit fast and almost his entire body is gray except for some bits of his normal royal blue hue. I will note I haven't disposed of his body yet as I don't want to flush him if he did get this. 

I only have post death pictures as I didn't realize it had hit until he was gone. He was fine last night.


----------



## cakes488

BettaStarter24 said:


> Just lost my DTPK Maui to possibly this mystery disease. Hit fast and almost his entire body is gray except for some bits of his normal royal blue hue. I will note I haven't disposed of his body yet as I don't want to flush him if he did get this.
> 
> I only have post death pictures as I didn't realize it had hit until he was gone. He was fine last night.


Please don't flush fish. If you must dispose of him wrap him in paper towels and a few sandwich bags and throw in the trash....but under no circumstances should you flush fish.


----------



## ReticentTeacup

Sewage plans can handle much more than a dead betta. Flush to your heart's content as long as the fish won't clog your pipes. Much, much worse things end up in the sewer than even a betta with graphite.


----------



## Bettaloveee

@*ReticentTeacup* There's a reason why you aren't supposed to flush fish, dead or alive. Diseases can be carried to native species. So no, do not "flush to your heart's content".


----------



## ReticentTeacup

Bettaloveee said:


> @*ReticentTeacup* There's a reason why you aren't supposed to flush fish, dead or alive. Diseases can be carried to native species. So no, do not "flush to your heart's content".


Sewage treatment plants are well equipped to nuke the water of anything harmful. Unless you're dumping chemical waste down your toilet, your city and the plant won't notice a difference. People have been flushing fish who died of illness for decades.

Unfiltered sewage doesn't dump into bodies of water anymore to my knowledge.


----------



## Tikibirds

double posted


----------



## LeanneM

Unfortunately I believe Mycobacterium got my guy today  he was about 1 year old. He was happy and healthy a day and a half ago, then yesteesay I noticed he wouldn't come out to eat. At that point he had some slight discolouration on the tips of his tail fin. By last night the black/grey had spread quite a bit. This was his last night. This morning it appeared about the same but he was even more lethargic. I put him in a container and floated it in his tank to maintain the temp. Within 3 hours he was dead  when I removed the container there were pieces of his tail all over the base. So sad how quickly this progressed. 
I didn't read through all the comments, but did he likely have this for a while and it just surfaced? I did introduce an Ottocinclus about a week and a half ago. Could he have been infected? The Otto isn't showing any signs of illness (nor is my other Otto or my frogs). But I'm concerned as to what I should do now with my ottos and frogs that shared a tank? From what I've read it's very difficult to get rid of the bacteria from the tank so I'm thinking I just won't get another betta, but can it affect other fish?


----------



## lilnaugrim

I'll link your thread here LeanneM so that others can see what I've said about this.
Apologies for not getting to you sooner.
http://www.bettafish.com/99-betta-fish-diseases-emergencies/749802-my-poor-guy-sick.html


----------



## breadloaf

Oh dear  this sounds EXACTLY like what lettuce got. Unfortunately I've already buried him...but if you guys are still doing the tests, I'll be sure to let other people know.

@Brunch0munchie: it seems like there is a cure.



Bladezero said:


> Well I think its that and I've lost almost a whole aquarium to it..
> Blue and some greens got the necrosis version and few of the others got the normal version or the acute one...
> 
> BUT One was saved with the use of 2 things together.. methylene blue and API Furan..
> 
> Another one was cured with a self surgery.. He's a big ear male, the necrosis started on his "ears" and he just bit it off after a about 15h suffering.. I was planning to cut the infected parts myself to try and save him but he got it before me
> 
> Anyway, If anyone has a chance to try the meds I said would be nice.. To know its not a one time deal that I got lucky..
> 
> (Whole aquarium = my female community) more then 10 dead, 4 on the way out and 6 almost fully recovered..
> 
> I didn't read the whole thread but I saw the word dropsy pop somewhere, One of the girls thats still alive has Dropsy and being treated right now with PP baths and Epsom salt
> Hopefully she'll make it.. She a tough one.. My Alpha girl...


In one of the previous replies, OP also said use kanamycin. Kanamycin didn't work for me (did a kanamycin + increased salt dose), but it's worth a shot.

But the disease seems to have a very fast onset and death (<24hrs), so I'm not sure if your fish has this mysterious disease


----------



## Bunch0munchie

Thank you for the help I'm not sure it is either but I figured this would be the place to find out for sure and maybe try to figure what it is out as well


----------



## Sappire

Has this disease been identified yet?


----------



## Bunch0munchie

I dont know but I hope it has been. Currently finished dosing for a fungal infection it seems to have no progressed and he is still eating and active so I dont think its anything serious


----------



## Guest

Very good, clear instructions, StarSpun.


----------



## End Balkanization WLM

toddscire said:


> *I do not know if this will help but we have seen this before.*
> 
> i am new to this site but been in fish and retail and now wholesale. Some of the supply that petsmart and petco and ect get fish from is there own wholesale. They have a buyer get there fish. I would think it if through dolphin international or one of the big trans shippers. The fish are out of aisa and when we saw this is was a shipper from _Taiwan and he was well known. The fish I saw were all dead in a few weeks and the rummer was it was hormones in the food for blue and red colors. The red fish did not seem to die but lost a lot of color over the months and the blues seemed to die rather fast. Every breeder in Thailand stopped for a few days and bangkok was full of bettas cheap. But this fish in the picture looks like what we saw a year ago in BKK and the rumor in the breeder circle was hormones were found to be the issue and as the liver shut down the fish died meds did not work. My friend is looking at the same picture and he said yup. Hormone fish. Lets face it color sells and if you pay 3.00 usd at a store then the whole sale paid .30cent or so and the broker charged .20 cent and the breeder got his .15 cent. So if he is producing a solid blue that looks to good to be true ...it is. Buy froma good breeder and know what you have. Any good breeder will back his or her fish ASAP. There name is at stake. If you pay 10.00 for that blue fish and see 300 more baby and adults just like it in the same place then you know what you are getting. 2.00 fish are not good deals and will give you issues. But if I had to bet my 40,000 betta's on what your fish has I would say hormones and the fungus and bacteria all at the same time. If you can get the later under control fast enough the hormones might get out of the system and the kidney might get going again. But it is best to cull any fish that shows this and do a good clean job on your tank. Keep all fish apart for a few days and look for issues. If you do not see anything in a few days you are OK most of the time. Betta are some tough little fish. But some of the aisa stuff is so mass produced that the left over china food might be used. This food is spotty at best and even Thai breeders try to never use it. Nice package and food looks pretty but it is death in a bag. Get your fish and your food from a good breeder. Also both petsmart and petco have a vet on staff? If you see the same issue with the fish in the store as you have, bring them your fish and go to a local breeder and get a new safe betta. Let the vet do their job and keep the fish healthy. But I am just giving what I know.....Use my info as good reading only......_


I am new to the betta world, am on my second for my 3 year old boy because his first died overnight for reasons I don’t know. It devastated him and anyone who thinks these little guys don’t grow on you like any other family pet do they are wrong. We had him over 2 months in the 6.5 gallon tank heated, filtered, air stone, and all before he died overnight no signs of anything. I read your comment and you sound very knowledgeable, so any help would be greatly appreciated. I don’t want to lose this guy yet either. Thanks in advance


----------

