# this is why veiltails should be classed and shown



## homegrown terror

ladies and gentlemen of the jury, i rest my case.


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## trilobite

And this! And he even reaches 180 haha
Vts when done properly look way nicer than any other longfin type in my opinion


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## Fenghuang

This one? Though I have no idea if/what colour category he would be...

Personally, I think VTs look very elegant. I love those long flowing fins.


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## Skyewillow

Um... no, no they shouldn't... because you should send all of these ones to ME! lol

These guys are EXACTLY what I have in mind when I think about a real Veiltail!! ^_^ Gorgeous!


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## Saphira101

*Drools*


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## xShainax

*Drools more*


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## Skyewillow

Does he fit in here at all? (he's still a youngster though)


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## homegrown terror

this is now the "most beautiful veiltails on the internet" thread.


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## mursey

Those are all so beautiful. I agree!


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## homegrown terror




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## Skyewillow

homegrown terror said:


>


if he goes missing, it WASN'T me... -looks innocent-


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## SageMyster

You guys have some LOVELY veils, I just must say!


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## Hallyx

Member Morla's VT. Placed well, photo contest.


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## Fenghuang

These fish are the reason why I can never buy from Aquabid. They would be mine and I would be broke!


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## Skyewillow

Your pics aren't showing, Fenghuang


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## registereduser

"show fish" and "fish shows" crack me up. Talk about obsessed :lol:

Before I decided to get my first betta, when I just thought about bettas, I thought veiltails were the only kind. I finally have 2 now and I love them! I might be a strictly VT person in future ;-)


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## registereduser

Skyewillow said:


> Your pics aren't showing, Fenghuang


I see them!


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## Skyewillow

registereduser said:


> I see them!


Apparently my cellular telephonic device didn't like them, they work now :-D

and WOW!


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## xShainax

My favorite betta by-far is my wild colored VT Lucifer 2


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## dramaqueen

I prefer hm 's and plakats but I've had a few pretty vt 's.


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## LittleBettaFish

Jodi-Lea gets some cracker veiltail males in. Good thing about veiltails is that even the fancy ones aren't that expensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lIiq1LJXds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBtdrIIL32k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoexN85191Y

I almost purchased the dalmatian spot male but decided I didn't have the space or need for another betta.


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## Fenghuang

^ I couldn't agree more. Some of her imports are absolutely gorgeous. Some more video links I pulled from another post I made:

http://youtu.be/RqK60avTfK4
http://youtu.be/mUO585cIpls
http://youtu.be/57vQgbfcZWM
http://youtu.be/Ue71nDS_C04


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## Megara

I totally agree!!!...I LOVE MINE...he soo PreTTY!!..and Everyone who posted photos..WOW!!!...VT are my FaV!!!!!!..i would post photos of mine..but hes still in recovery from when i got him from the petstore last week...if u wana see him tho..there is an album of him on my profile PAGE..he is an interesting color...iv never seen before!!!.....VEIL TAILs RULE!!!!!


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## LittleBettaFish

I think the fish she imports in are the nicest bettas in Australia. 

Would love to know the farms that she gets some of these VT males from. VT is my favourite tail type and the one I would be choosing to work with if I ever get back into splendens.


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## Phaydra

I tend to find organized animal shows a bit shallow. I have nothing against people who do it unless they strait out say their animal is better then mine because they are show animals. I think every fish here is beautiful. Their quirks and personalities make them all champions in my book.


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## cheb01

beautiful!


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## Crowntails

Wow such a pretty fish


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## polukoff

homegrown terror said:


> this is now the "most beautiful veiltails on the internet" thread.


This fish is my favorite!


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## flyingpony22

Are veil tails shown in other countries? Is that why they're so pretty and the ones in the us generally...aren't?


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## MattsBettas

I love this thread. If only the ibc could see it!


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## Skyewillow

Aren't the candidates for president members of the forum?


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## Hadoken Kitty

Phaydra said:


> I tend to find organized animal shows a bit shallow. I have nothing against people who do it unless they strait out say their animal is better then mine because they are show animals. I think every fish here is beautiful. Their quirks and personalities make them all champions in my book.


I know this is off topic but I couldn't agree more. Case in point, I love the fish I have purchased from AB, but my male pet store beta Dovahkiin will hold my heart for the simple fact that he is my baby, and no one can ever tell me that their fish is more beautiful than him. I will shake my head and tell them that I think their fish is beautiful, but he is still my baby.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Also. Look at the fins on this girl! o.o;


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## popcorndeer

i have a V tail his name is popcorn and hes super pretty but its so hard to get a pic of him because once he sees my moms pone he goes crazy and when he does stay still he looks right at the pone and you can only see his face lol and when he waches TV you have to turn a weird way and the tank is a weird shape and he looks all wavy (his favorite show is hanna montana LOL)

here are some relly bad pics of him:




























he has fin rot


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## polukoff

flyingpony22 said:


> Are veil tails shown in other countries? Is that why they're so pretty and the ones in the us generally...aren't?


USA is the only country where Veiltail are not shown, as far as I know.



Skyewillow said:


> Aren't the candidates for president members of the forum?


Only BasementBettas is on this forum.


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## Skyewillow

I thought there was another member running. hmm...

However, there are a bunch of members here who are also IBC members, they're in a prime position to pester the living daylights out of the IBC. lol


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## rubinthebetta

Yep, this thread would definetly convince those ibc people to show vts. :lol: here's a pretty fish I found on aquabid:
View attachment 77022


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## popcorndeer

rubinthebetta said:


> Yep, this thread would definetly convince those ibc people to show vts. :lol: here's a pretty fish I found on aquabid:
> View attachment 77022


 
ohh i seen that fish on aquabid:-D


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## Maddybelle

There is already a way to get an IBC class for VTs: breed very nice ones, and send them to shows under the Variations class. If the Powers that Be see that there is genuine interest in showing VTs, and breeding show quality Vts, not just losts of people who *wish* VTs had their own class, they'll create a VT class.

That's at least how I understand it. =)


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## Viva

I'm really falling in love with these veil tails! Waaaaaant! My first two bettas were VT's a loooong time ago before I knew anything about the different tail types. Hmmmm......maybe I'll go shopping =p


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## Saphira101

Yes, I have a VT. I know how you feel:

Looks like another leisurely walk through Petco... "Oh, look at that, a Betta. What a coincidence. Oh, he's looking at me! Wow. Looks like I have to get him. Such a pity..."


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## Xaltd1

Your fish are all so beautiful!! Can't we petition the IBC (or whoever) to allow the VT in again??? It's so not fair! Just b/c a certain type was "overbred" (or whatever) for the pet trade, doesn't mean they can't be beautiful, healthy fish! Many dog breeds are bred to the point of unbelievable health problems, but the AKC still lets them compete. Once a breed in in the AKC, they aren't kicked out. I imagine it's the same with other animals that are shown in conformation competitions.


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## Caii

THIS FISH










HAS MADE MY DAY! XD

Look at those colors!!!

In all honesty though, every betta fish- and every veiltail betta fish- are beautiful and wonderful animals ^^

... I just have a soft spot for veiltails! <3


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## Option

dramaqueen said:


> I prefer hm 's and plakats but I've had a few pretty vt 's.


+1. Nice colors and all in those pics but I'm still not a VT showbetta advocate.


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## Xaltd1

Why?


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## Skyewillow

Option said:


> +1. Nice colors and all in those pics but I'm still not a VT showbetta advocate.


to each their own


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## Chard56

You can show Veiltails in IBC shows under forms and finnage or Variations. They just don't have a Veiltail division. If they did I'd be sending some of these.


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## Option

Xaltd1 said:


> Why?


In my opinion betta finnage has evolved (or mutated...however you want to look at it) beyond what we first called a show betta years ago. So there just isn't large enough of a market (or fan club...again, however you want to call it) for VTs.

I'm perfectly fine in agreeing to disagree however....as VTs are a style which is subjected to people's choice. And there's no room for debate here other than voicing an opinion. Mine too...is just an opinion.


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## Chard56

If there wasn't a market for them I wouldn't be raising them and the overseas breeders wouldn't be shipping them to pet stores nation wide. In Europe they have a Veiltail class in their shows. Here I think people have just moved on to the more popular types. If there were more people sending Veiltails to the show they would have to make a division for them.


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## Xaltd1

It's funny how even a fish type can "fall out of fashion". It's just snobbery that since retailers sell them, that the IBC won't have a class for them. Gee, I wonder which type will be the next fad? I just gave up on a thread about how EE's shouldn't be bred b/c they "look silly and can't swim properly". Oh good grief! I think we should breed for 1. healthy fish; and 2. beautiful fish that people will really get excited about, and will WANT to take care of, regardless of tail/fin type. Chard, you have some gorgeous fish there!! (I know, I bought some!)


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## Option

Chard56 said:


> If there wasn't a market for them I wouldn't be raising them and the overseas breeders wouldn't be shipping them to pet stores nation wide.


Will you relax? If you carefully read my previous post you will notice I typed "there just isn't large enough of a market". I carefully made sure I didn't make any extreme claims and yet you're still on the defensive. :roll:


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## Xaltd1

Saphira101 said:


> Yes, I have a VT. I know how you feel:
> 
> Looks like another leisurely walk through Petco... "Oh, look at that, a Betta. What a coincidence. Oh, he's looking at me! Wow. Looks like I have to get him. Such a pity..."


LOL!!!!!!!! That's how I wound up with all these fish and probably $1000 worth of equipment!!! That one, sad, plain little VT girl that swam up to me in her cup, looked me in the eye and said "Bring me home!!!" (Then, oh, she's lonely, let's get a sister for her and a bigger tank... oops, you can't have 2 females together....:lol: )


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## Chard56

Option said:


> Will you relax? If you carefully read my previous post you will notice I typed "there just isn't large enough of a market". I carefully made sure I didn't make any extreme claims and yet you're still on the defensive. :roll:


Who's being defensive? I was just trying to let you know that there is "a large enough market". There's probably more Veiltails sold every year than all the other types combined.


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## Luimeril

this one's beautiful, Chard! <3









i have a lot of VTs. the one i got from Chard, my marble, has amazing finnage. not my favorite, in terms of VTs, but he's got potential. :B the red i got from the pet store, however, is nearly perfect. <3


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## kandaila

I love my boy. He wasn't marked but I'm pretty sure he's a veil tail. He has the cutest blue eyes.


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## Xaltd1

How beautiful!!! I have a female EE, Mist, with the same coloring. Did you get him from a breeder?
My breeder's label for Mist reads "HM PK Dumbo". I'm not sure how you can have a HM PK. I'd love to breed for this color of ours, but I'm not sure having an EE in the mix would be a good idea. OT a bit, are certain colors genetically associated with fin type?


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## Xaltd1

Oops, my bad. Just went to the sticky; I guess you can have a HM PK, it's just pretty subtle in a female. I've got to correct my signature AGAIN.


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## Chard56

Xaltd1 said:


> How beautiful!!! I have a female EE, Mist, with the same coloring. Did you get him from a breeder?
> My breeder's label for Mist reads "HM PK Dumbo". I'm not sure how you can have a HM PK. I'd love to breed for this color of ours, but I'm not sure having an EE in the mix would be a good idea. OT a bit, are certain colors genetically associated with fin type?


 HMPK is a fin type of Plakat. There are Traditional, Show and Halfmoon. Then there are what's called transitionals or "tweeners" that are crosses of two of those so that they are neither one nor the other specific type. Any color can be bred into any fin type. The bottom half of this page you will find the standards for Plakats and Shortfin Halfmoon. http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewforum.php?f=29


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## kandaila

I got him from a petstore where they do breed their own bettas. There were a bunch that all came out at the same time with simular colors. Most had more of the blue in the fins. Star was the purest I could find he has a light blue that almost looks iridescent on his fins and a little bit of black that sneaks in too. You can't see from this pic but he's opaque almost all over except for his lips. Its adorable!


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## Skyewillow

Xaltd1 said:


> How beautiful!!! I have a female EE, Mist, with the same coloring. Did you get him from a breeder?
> My breeder's label for Mist reads "HM PK Dumbo". I'm not sure how you can have a HM PK. I'd love to breed for this color of ours, but I'm not sure having an EE in the mix would be a good idea. OT a bit, are certain colors genetically associated with fin type?


the EE I showed you is a HMPK, his tail spreads to 180* when he flares.

all of these veils are totally amazing, and if they can be shown in the variations class, then us fanciers should be flooding them with nice VT's, they'll have to give us back our own class!


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## veggiegirl

*Thanks for opening my eyes....*

Hey there,

Like most betta keepers I started out with veiltails and crowntails, at the time I did not even know that other varieties existed!!!!! After doing some research though I fell in love with the betta even more and desperately wanted either a HM PK or HM. Unfortunately our town did not offer anything other than VT and CT. After a year or so however a new petshop opened up and they offered HM, delta tails and HM PK..... I so wanted one but I couldn't believe they were asking $40-$50 a fish......

Time went by and so it seemed there just was not the market for fancy bettas here and so the petshop sold the rest of their fancy bettas off at VT/CT price and to my delight I came home with a nice turquoise HM PK. That was it I was hooked and I have not had a VT since.

This thread however has opened my eyes!!!!!!! some of the veiltails on here are just amazing and if I had the opportunity I would snap them up in a second!!!!!!!!!! Sooooooo gorgeous!!!!!!! 

I think that it would be a great idea to include VT in betta shows because it would mean that breeders would work on improving their quality and offering more unusual colours. As it is most VT seem to be mass produced without any thought because they are simply trying to produce as many as possible to make money because pet shops will take almost any quality VT as long as they are not physically deformed or sick.

In saying that I think that all bettas are special because while some lack in finnage and colour they make up for in personality and make wonderful pets but I do think that being able to show them would lead to a general improvement in colour and finnage.


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## Hadoken Kitty

*Inspiration*

I completely agree with veggiegirl. I have been to the pet store and run across what I considered an almost miracle find: yellow, female, small anal fin, but VT. I was upset seeing as I wanted a HM, but now I am beginning to think that I may breed her with another pet store SDet that I have. While I know that breeding pet store bettas is not always advised, my hopes would be to get a nice VT line going, with a fuller spread that SDet offers. If I am lucky, then the fry will be VT will a nice wide spread, but with the beautiful tail lengths that VTs offer. Then, if things turn out successful, then I may incorporate a DT look to copy a goldfish-like finnage. VTs offer such great potential that many people, including myself, over-look. Here is a picture of the specific finnage I have in mind to base this project on. It won't be super soon, but this thread definitely has me inspired.


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## Skyewillow

quite a few of the breeders here confess to starting with petstore bettas. you gotta start somewhere, and there aren't many quality VT breeders around anymore because of the social stigmata that appears to come from the idea of breeding VT's.

Chard, that doesn't include you, the fish I've seen from your stock are beautiful and very nicely put together. ^_^


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## Chard56

*Pet store Bettas*



Skyewillow said:


> quite a few of the breeders here confess to starting with petstore bettas. you gotta start somewhere, and there aren't many quality VT breeders around anymore because of the social stigmata that appears to come from the idea of breeding VT's.
> 
> Chard, that doesn't include you, the fish I've seen from your stock are beautiful and very nicely put together. ^_^


 I don't only confess to starting with Pet store Bettas but using pet store Bettas exclusively! Thank you for the compliment also. As many forum members, moderators and administrators have found out I couldn't give a rat's patootee about the social stigmata of breeding Veiltails and pet store Bettas. There were no Veiltails for sale on Aquabid for years that I could see until I started selling a few different ones. Red, Blue; Green NO everybody and their brother had those colors. But Gold, Marbles; Purple those caught your eye and your attention and they sold. Now I'm one of 5 or 6 other sellers to offer Veiltails. And breeding pet store Bettas? I can't tell you how many times I've gotten into arguements with people over that subject. Especially on UB. I won't go on there since they crashed and if I do I'll show them my Grand Champion New Breeder of the year award and all my show ribbons just to rub their noses in the fact that I did it with pet store Bettas!


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## homegrown terror

i think another good idea, as well as dedicated VT breeders, would be for non-VT breeders to stop culling fry just BECAUSE they're VT's. i look at the beautiful HM's and DeT's and CT's and wonder how many fish from that same spawn would have been just as beautiful if they hadn't been culled for being VT's.

p.s. i think you meant to say social _stigma_....social stigmata sounds like the worst possible kind of social anxiety you could get (and this is from someone whose own social anxiety borders on that line!)


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## Skyewillow

yea, that. sorry, I'm having a really off day today. >_<

The fish I posted back on the first page is a pet store fish, and I've had a couple people compliment his appearance.

Also, hated UB. They're back up now, but I'm not anticipating going back.


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## Hadoken Kitty

I'm sorry about being off topic...but what is UB?


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## Skyewillow

another betta forum.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Skyewillow said:


> another betta forum.


Found it, but didn't go to the site. My comp got a message about the site having the potential to harm my comp. Soooo. Nope, not today. I just wanted to look around, but now I don't. 

Anyways, I am now inspired to find me that female that I saw the other day.


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## Skyewillow

it's had that problem for a long time, and no one seems too inclined to fix it.

it's not nearly as good as this one anyways.


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## Chard56

I her dat!


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## Phaydra

I agree there should be a class for them. After all if not for VTs the majority of North Americans would be clueless of Betta Splendens existence. If you are many of you are truly interested in showing them maybe you should research the standards for VTs in other countries and start submitting them in color classes till they have no choice but to add a class for them.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Honestly, I would say that in a VT, I wouldn't mind the anal fin being longer. This is one tail type that I think looks better with a long anal. Also, the under part of the caudal shouldn't be raised at all, unless flaring. These are just standards that I would have for my own bettas. I'm sure we could compile an actual set of standards, but I doubt everyone would agree with my own. Everyone's standards are different.


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## dramaqueen

It looks like I'm not the only one who dislikes that other forum.


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## Skyewillow

They BEG to be disliked...

Question of the day: Where is the standard that we're currently aiming for? I think if people start swamping them with entries, not only will they have to take them back as a class, but they'll have to adopt OUR terms too.


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## Xaltd1

homegrown terror;1432401 i think you meant to say social [I said:


> stigma[/I]....social stigmata sounds like the worst possible kind of social anxiety you could get (and this is from someone whose own social anxiety borders on that line!)


:lol:ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!:lol:
You made my day! (I wonder if the big drug companies are working on a drug for stigmata? I can't wait to see the commercials for that! "Feeling like you've been nailed to a cross lately? Then try Stigmatagone!")
Let me just add that the ebook advertised on the masthead of this site RECOMMENDS starting w/pet store bettas. They really don't get into why, but I suppose the lives of both parent fish (& their fry) are on the line during the process & they don't want a beginner spending $$$ for expensive fish plus shipping. That would be discouraging. That said, I ordered a $50 banana yellow HM to breed w/another imported yellow HM girl. Of course, I saw a brighter yellow male in Petco the next day:roll:


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## Phaydra

Skyewillow said:


> They BEG to be disliked...
> 
> Question of the day: Where is the standard that we're currently aiming for? I think if people start swamping them with entries, not only will they have to take them back as a class, but they'll have to adopt OUR terms too.


You are going to have more luck going with standards that are already in place. Plus to show a betta you pay the IBC a subscription fee and agree to their terms more or less. That being said you catch more flies with honey then you do vinegar. Demanding of a established organization is a good way to get yourself or VTs permanently disqualified.


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## Skyewillow

Didn't think they'd have a standard for a non-existent class.


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## Chard56

Stigmatagone, Ha ha ha! Good one. Speaking of "that" forum I made more friends on there from having a bad rep than the rest of the goody two shoes put together. I think it took me two weeks to go from a zero reputation to a negative 125. Here are some European Veiltail standards. http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9081


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## LittleBettaFish

I do have to say Chard, I am pretty sure I found a thread ages ago with some of your fish (I think it was DTs) and I can see where members of the UB were coming from with some of their criticisms. Some of your fish had very uneven lobes and poor finnage and I felt that these fish were not a prime example of your breeding program. 

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettasdt1303116604

For example that is a male of yours I think should have been culled or given away. 

While I think UB comes down fairly hard sometimes (they also seem to have malware or something attached to their site as my computer hates it), I think you have to be fair in saying some of the flack you might have received was warranted.

I always think it is in poor taste to criticise one forum on another. I'm sure everyone on here would be up in arms if Bettafish.com was getting routinely raked over the coals by UB. 

Also this isn't me being biased etc. as I have only like 20 odd posts or so on UB and thousands here.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Chard56 said:


> Stigmatagone, Ha ha ha! Good one. Speaking of "that" forum I made more friends on there from having a bad rep than the rest of the goody two shoes put together. I think it took me two weeks to go from a zero reputation to a negative 125. Here are some European Veiltail standards. http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9081


I don't really want to make another account on anything right now...LOL

Is there a way that you can copy/paste?


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## Chard56

@ littlebettafish: That picture is of an awesome DTCTPK with a slightly smaller upper lobe that people were almost fighting over to get. It looks a lot smaller than it was in that picture. By culling that male I would not have had so many other very good looking generations of Bettas from him. Your attitude AND opinion belongs on UB. You know what they say about opinions. Examples of his offspring: First place in his class.







This one snapped up on Aquabid.







Should have kept this one but sold on Aquabid.


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## Hadoken Kitty

So, I got my girl. I also managed to snatch up another male. Totally wasn't even on purpose, but this gorgeous DTHM male was just there. I couldn't leave without him.


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## LittleBettaFish

I am not saying I hate your fish. I have seen several nice marbles of yours that I would have purchased had I lived in the US. 

However, just because you have a market for your fish doesn't mean that every single one is top notch. 

I have seen some nice fish bred by you (that green marble HM that was in your display picture for a while) and some not so nice fish bred by you. 

I view all my fish very objectively. I think it is an important part of being a breeder. Telling what could have been a potential customer (had I lived in the US) that their opinion is not welcome is something that leaves a very bad taste in one's mouth. 

I have never had any issues on UB. Even when I have had opinions that have clashed with other members. I just find it distasteful to air dirty laundry on another forum.


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## Phaydra

Skyewillow said:


> Didn't think they'd have a standard for a non-existent class.


IBC has a VT class in other countries. It's just in the USA that VT doesn't have a class. So standards are already in place.


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## Chard56

Just because you've not had problems doesn't mean others didn't. Many of my repeat customers were brow beaten and jumped all over in posts on there. They remind of a wolf pack waiting to find a weakness and ganging up on the weakest member of the pack. Actually I think Vultures and Hyenas would be a better desciption. One smell of blood and they all come running. Keep your shorts on and we'll stop airing that laundry and try to stick to the subject of this thread. I just needed to get that other thing off my chest and vent a little........Ok I'm over it.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Chard56 said:


> Stigmatagone, Ha ha ha! Good one. Speaking of "that" forum I made more friends on there from having a bad rep than the rest of the goody two shoes put together. I think it took me two weeks to go from a zero reputation to a negative 125. Here are some European Veiltail standards. http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9081


Can you copy/paste what you're seeing? I don't want to make yet another account for anything right now. PLEASEEEE!?


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## Chard56

*It is not allowed to copy, translate or use the content of this standard without permission of the author.*


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## Hadoken Kitty

Okay I'm sorry I couldn't see. T.T


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## dramaqueen

LittleBettaFish said:


> I do have to say Chard, I am pretty sure I found a thread ages ago with some of your fish (I think it was DTs) and I can see where members of the UB were coming from with some of their criticisms. Some of your fish had very uneven lobes and poor finnage and I felt that these fish were not a prime example of your breeding program.
> 
> AquaBid.com - Archived Auction # fwbettasdt1303116604 - Red Copper Dragon Doubletail Crowntail Male - Ended: Mon Apr 18 03:50:04 2011
> 
> For example that is a male of yours I think should have been culled or given away.
> 
> While I think UB comes down fairly hard sometimes (they also seem to have malware or something attached to their site as my computer hates it), I think you have to be fair in saying some of the flack you might have received was warranted.
> 
> I always think it is in poor taste to criticise one forum on another. I'm sure everyone on here would be up in arms if Bettafish.com was getting routinely raked over the coals by UB.
> 
> Also this isn't me being biased etc. as I have only like 20 odd posts or so on UB and thousands here.


We have been raked over the coals by certain people who dislike this forum and who say we're too nice and polite, all glitter and unicorns. Then there is the oh, I'm not rude, I just don't sugarcoat stuff thing.


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## LittleBettaFish

I think this forum seems to have a lot more younger members/newcomers to the hobby (this isn't in regards to anyone in this thread) and they tend to be very quick to react to what is in reality fair criticism. 

I think that the best forums are the ones where there is an equal balance between criticism and encouragement. I sometimes see things on this forum that I don't like or agree with, and I have seen things on UB that I also don't like or agree with. 

Anyway, I will have to ask someone what standard VTs are judged against here and what class they can be entered in as I have seen them place in shows here in Australia.


----------



## Skyewillow

Phaydra said:


> IBC has a VT class in other countries. It's just in the USA that VT doesn't have a class. So standards are already in place.


oh! Good deal then! ^_^


----------



## Myates

An IBC member is wanting to bring them back..


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

Yayyyy!


----------



## Chard56

I'd be one of those. I'd make a guess and say the person your are talking about is, no names here but are her initials KS?


----------



## Mo

dramaqueen said:


> We have been raked over the coals by certain people who dislike this forum and who say we're too nice and polite, all glitter and unicorns. Then there is the oh, I'm not rude, I just don't sugarcoat stuff thing.


I don't think this forum is too nice and polite, lol. Alot of people her are rude.:roll:


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

Mo said:


> I don't think this forum is too nice and polite, lol. Alot of people her are rude.:roll:


+1. Blah. ANYWAYS. I got a male that I'm going to breed for VT for sure. He's the DT I was hoping to get later on, but I couldn't pass him up. I also got a female, but if she turns out to not be VT, I'm sure I'll get a VT to use in one of my fry groups.


----------



## Mo

Just like it was said earlier you should send them to the NB or variation class. Just send alot of quality fish to that class and you might have a shot at creating a class for them


----------



## Myates

Chard56 said:


> I'd be one of those. I'd make a guess and say the person your are talking about is, no names here but are her initials KS?


Are you talking to me? If so, then no, not KS.

And I'd be one of those breeding VTs too lol


----------



## Alcemistnv

...I think I seemed to have missed whatever happened between now and the first page...

UMMM but yea, gorgeous veiltails!


----------



## Phaydra

I don't have VTs but I am a member that would support you. Sorry Mo I have a rude bone connected to my funny bone and I hit the funny bone every ten minutes .


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

Alcemistnv said:


> ...I think I seemed to have missed whatever happened between now and the first page...
> 
> UMMM but yea, gorgeous veiltails!


IMO, not worth catching up on. Lol.


----------



## Mo

Phaydra said:


> I don't have VTs but I am a member that would support you. Sorry Mo I have a rude bone connected to my funny bone and I hit the funny bone every ten minutes .


Lol. I don't see you being rude much it's usually newer members who are fast to react to something.


----------



## popcorndeer

where i live there is only V tails no halfmoons or crown tails there isnt even any girl bettas just male V tails but i am trying to find a girl some where

and theres not any betta shows for any kind of betta fish


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## dramaqueen

Some of the older ones tend to react quickly to stuff, too.


----------



## Skyewillow

popcorndeer said:


> and theres not any betta shows for any kind of betta fish


The shows are usually fairly spread out, that's why people would have to try to figure out how to get their entries in.

How DOES everyone get their livestock into the shows? I'm sure it's a lot different than shoving a goat in the van and driving to the county fair. lol


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## dramaqueen

What shows?


----------



## Mo

They get there fish to shows by either shipping or bagging them up and driving to the show


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## Xaltd1

I think I know which website you're talking about. When I was first getting interested in bettas, I was surfing for more information. I came across a site that was lambasting a person for having extra fry. They were saying horrible things, like how dare you not properly prepare, you're playing God etc. I was appalled! I think somebody actually told that person to go kill themselves! That site must not have a moderator.


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## Chard56

Actually that probably WAS a moderator. I double bag my fish and ship them in double insulated boxes. Normally when sending to a buyer I write on the box LIVE FISH 72 hr. heat pack Enclosed 68 degrees to 88 degrees I figure that way the postal worker doesn't freak out when they pick up a box with a warm spot on it and they know piority is supposed to take 3 days. If they can count that would mean the heat pack is only good for that three days. When sending to the shows they don't want you writing live fish because certain shipping companies have issues with the shipping of live animals. They have trained or supervised people at the shows to unbox and acclimate your fish while keeping track by numbering them according to pre-prepared lists that are already registered with the show chairperson. They get put in what looks like beanie baby clear containers in their appropriate section. I almost made it to a show in Texas last year but I couldn't get my car fixed in time. Maybe this year.


----------



## Skyewillow

Yea, someone told me I was an idiot for trying to rinse off my king when he went catbox diving, well, soaking him in water wasn't going to work if his gills were full of clay...

Are all the shows in Tx? I'd definitely go if it were anywhere near Mi! I'd like to be there in case there's an issue with one of my fish. (I used to show goats/ducks/rabbits)


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

I know they ship a lot, but I think it would be really cool to actually be at the show!!!

Also, if you ship TO the show, do you have to pay for the boxes/heat packs/insulation for getting them back as well? I would assume so.


----------



## Xaltd1

Cat box diving! Sounds just like a betta to me!!!!
What did the genius on the website tell you to do? I find people like that are long on criticism and really short on helpful information. Not unlike the rest of the world.
Can you tell I just got off phone with my mother?


----------



## Skyewillow

they told me that I should've soaked him in warm water. He was completely caked. I thought he was cat poo until he moved!! It was horrible!


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

Skyewillow said:


> they told me that I should've soaked him in warm water. He was completely caked. I thought he was cat poo until he moved!! It was horrible!


Awwww poor little guy!!! They're silly. Good thing you didn't listen. =D


----------



## Chard56

Skyewillow said:


> Yea, someone told me I was an idiot for trying to rinse off my king when he went catbox diving, well, soaking him in water wasn't going to work if his gills were full of clay...
> 
> Are all the shows in Tx? I'd definitely go if it were anywhere near Mi! I'd like to be there in case there's an issue with one of my fish. (I used to show goats/ducks/rabbits)


 You are not an I D ten T. You did what you had to in that situation. No not all in Texas. There are two different locations they have shows in out in California and two in Texas. I've sent my Bettas to the ones in Cali, Texas, Connecticut; Arizona and Illinois I believe. There's probably a couple others I can't remember. They discount the entry fees the more you send but one box I sent to California had 60 fish. At half price for over a certain amount was only $30 but the shipping was 75 freakin' out dollars! You can either have them sold at auction or sent back. Either way you have to send money or a shipping label for the return trip.


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

Chard56 said:


> You are not an I D ten T. You did what you had to in that situation. No not all in Texas. There are two different locations they have shows in out in California and two in Texas. I've sent my Bettas to the ones in Cali, Texas, Connecticut; Arizona and Illinois I believe. There's probably a couple others I can't remember. They discount the entry fees the more you send but one box I sent to California had 60 fish. At half price for over a certain amount was only $30 but the shipping was 75 freakin' out dollars! You can either have them sold at auction or sent back. Either way you have to send money or a shipping label for the return trip.


How much money do you have to send? Do they use the same box if you send with a label?


----------



## Chard56

See that's something I don't get. If you send 20 fish at $30 for exress shipping and you sell half of your fish at auction how can you predict how much it weighs to pay for a return label? The times I didn't have any marked for auction I sent a return shipping label (They'll ask for a return date when you buy it either online or at the post office) I figured 2 or 4 (I can't rmember) ounces of water per fish and weighed the box. The other times I had some for auction I just put so much extra in the paperwork envelope and hoped it was ok. You are to send an appropriate amount of bags for the return trip and all but one time they sent the same box back. Once I got somebody elses box. I think at least once I actually came out money ahead. They send you a check for any fish you sold at auction. 75/25% they keep the 25%.


----------



## Xaltd1

Whoa, they sell your fish??? I might like to try that someday. I thought it was like dog showing. You have to haul your animals and drive halfway across the country every time $$$$


----------



## SolomonFinch

LOL, I have been eying the dragonscale initially posted on aquabid since yesterday. cannot make up my mind as i do not understand the shipping method.
he is gorgeous.


----------



## Xaltd1

I've purchased on Aquabid; it's very simple. I believe there's a sticky on this site, plus there are instructions on the Aquabid main page. 
All you need is 1. MONEY, 2. a PayPal account; 3. email and 4. a mailing address.
What you do is buy the fish (PayPal is really you're only practical choice), then choose the "transshipper" closest to you. The overseas seller will ask you which transshipper to send the fish to. Answer that email w/ your choice. I always cc that transshipper. The selected transshipper will ask you to pay them for shipping to you (again, PayPal). Make sure you use UPS Express shipping. (I have them mark "hold for pick up", but my local P.O. seems to think "Hold" means "put on the freezing truck all day then cram the fish in a mailbox".) 
This simpler than it sounds, really!! These people are pros & if they need more info from you, you'll hear from them.
Express shipping is expensive, but shipping can be on as many as 6 fish at a time, so 35 divided by 6= $5.8333 per fish. Of course you've probably paid $20 for the fish, so it's pricey, but WORTH IT! Petco/petsmart/LFS is hit-or-miss. People (myself included) have purchased wonderful fish there, BUT if you want a certain color/fin type, they'll probably have it on Aquabid.


----------



## Phaydra

Xaltd1 said:


> (I have them mark "hold for pick up", but my local P.O. seems to think "Hold" means "put on the freezing truck all day then cram the fish in a mailbox".)


Sorry this just made me lol.


----------



## Xaltd1

They cost me a shipment of Plecos, but the sturdy Bettas survived! What REALLY cooked my goose was when the clerk at the P.O. roughly twirled and turned a box of fish upside down to scan the barcode. I asked her what part of "this side up" she was having a problem with. She actually said, "They're fish, they can swim"!!!!!!!!!
A manager who witnessed this invited me into his office. I blew his doors off. No wonder the P.O. is in financial trouble!!!!
Sorry, OT big time.


----------



## popcorndeer

no buddy relly like V tails its like this:

this is my crown tail and this is my crowntail halfmoon (isnt he pretty) and this is my halfmoon and this is my fish (pic of a v tail)


----------



## Chard56

If you are insinuating that no one likes Veitails you are so very wrong. If you personally don't like them just say so. That's your right to have an opinion.


----------



## Phaydra

Xaltd1 said:


> They cost me a shipment of Plecos, but the sturdy Bettas survived! What REALLY cooked my goose was when the clerk at the P.O. roughly twirled and turned a box of fish upside down to scan the barcode. I asked her what part of "this side up" she was having a problem with. She actually said, "They're fish, they can swim"!!!!!!!!!
> A manager who witnessed this invited me into his office. I blew his doors off. No wonder the P.O. is in financial trouble!!!!
> Sorry, OT big time.


I know what you mean. I stopped asking my driver to ring the bell when there is a package cause she seems to think that means ninja through the landscaping, throw the package at the door, then run back to her truck as fast as she can. Sounds like a lot to ask till you realize they have to drop the mail 3 inches from the door bell.


----------



## popcorndeer

iam just saying that some people dont like them and think they are just plane bettas 

i love v tails popcorn is a v tail


----------



## Xaltd1

God Forbid they should get off their butts & come UP to the DOOR!!! Those YouTube videos showing Fedex guys whipping boxes in the general direction of the house is only the tip of the iceberg.

I love veiltails! I wish there were more pretty females of ANY tail type. PetcoSmart only seem to sell the dark reddish purple VT girls. I want paler/brighter colors. Since there is nothing much on the VT section of Aquabid, I have to turn to other fin types. I have mainly HM females b/c that's where the color variety is. I've gone so far as to buy a yellow HM male to try a spawn w/my bright yellow girl. I don't care about fin type, just health and color. (I haven't dared to put them together yet.)
I imagine that the popularity of VTs may have compromised the health of the fin type due to popularity. I hope the others don't follow suit. Bringing back the healthy, brightly colored VT is an investment in the future of the fish, IMHO.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I think there is a market for quality VTs even if they cannot be shown in their own class. I know there is definitely one here. 

A lot of people (myself included) prefer VTs to most other tail types. I found CTs to be too fussy with their water conditions, HMs to be inclined to fin nipping, and it can be difficult to find a DT with even lobes and a decent topline. 

It's only unfortunate that they have been pumped out willy nilly by the big wholesaler farms without any regard to quality. The market is saturated by sub-par VTs and it is sad as this is the fish many people start off with when they enter the hobby and it would be nice to see VTs as more than just a stepping stone to the fancier types.


----------



## Chard56

[/quote} by Xaltd1: I love veiltails! I wish there were more pretty females of ANY tail type. PetcoSmart only seem to sell the dark reddish purple VT girls. I want paler/brighter colors. Since there is nothing much on the VT section of Aquabid, I have to turn to other fin types. I have mainly HM females b/c that's where the color variety is. I've gone so far as to buy a yellow HM male to try a spawn w/my bright yellow girl. I don't care about fin type, just health and color. (I haven't dared to put them together yet.)
I imagine that the popularity of VTs may have compromised the health of the fin type due to popularity. I hope the others don't follow suit. Bringing back the healthy, brightly colored VT is an investment in the future of the fish, IMHO.[/quote]
If you really think Veiltail females would sell, I would take the time and effort to take their pictures and post them to Aquabid auctions. I'm one of the few sellers with Veiltail males now. I have a couple Purple ones on there but I have other colors as well.


----------



## Xaltd1

I just lost my 1 and only VT, Gilly.
I saw your fish! I have several female HMs & 1 CT that are similar in color. Can you breed a completely white VT? That would be gorgous!
I don't know if they would sell. I'm into the sorority, and I want high-contrast fish.. I'm not sure what the market wants.


----------



## Chard56

I finally found an all White Halfmoon and am trying to breed him to one of my Snow Dragon females. So far no good. The White Crowntail spawn I had didn't turn out all that great. I may as well try a White Veiltail spawn, right? Anything other than the usual Blue, Red; Green (Turquoise) like White, Black; Orange or Purple Veitails are worth breeding even if you only get $5 to $8 a piece. The plain regular colors just don't sell well.


----------



## Phaydra

Chard56 said:


> I finally found an all White Halfmoon and am trying to breed him to one of my Snow Dragon females. So far no good. The White Crowntail spawn I had didn't turn out all that great. I may as well try a White Veiltail spawn, right? Anything other than the usual Blue, Red; Green (Turquoise) like White, Black; Orange or Purple Veitails are worth breeding even if you only get $5 to $8 a piece. The plain regular colors just don't sell well.


OMG a white VT drool. I would love to see copper VTs too. Once I get all set up may my I can pair my copper boys with two VT girls


----------



## Xaltd1

I think, if you want to know what NOT to breed, check out PetSmart's females- blahhh. I have to shop there because The Exalted One Himself, my cat, Jax, will only eat the $1.04 per can PetSmart food. These fish are his, to watch for his amusement. I'm just the slave.
I'm hoping more people will see the fun of having a sorority. If the PetcoSmarts of the country would set them up, people would see that you can have a tank full of pretty bettas! They are more entertaining than schooling fish- they chase, have personalities, and are always up to something.


----------



## Chard56

I know the problem of only having plain Veiltails to chose from. I started this whole project from whatever different and 4 ray females I could find at Petco, Petsmart; Pet Warehouse and Wal-mart. You just can't find a lot of them. I could never afford to buy off of Aquabid and didn't have a computer if I'd wanted to when I first started back breeding Bettas over 5 years ago. All my stock is pretty much bred from scratch.


----------



## Xaltd1

Good for you!!!
I'll bet your fish are 10X healthier than anyone else's.
Petcosmart are interested in making a quick buck by selling a fish as a novelty decoration that's going to be dead in a few weeks. That doesn't mean the fish are poor quality, the retailer is just responding to what sells. Do you know that a worker in Petco said when she asked what my new heater was for? "Bettas don't need heaters!" aaahhhgggrr


----------



## SolomonFinch

thanks for the aquabid info!
i have to wait 24 hours for an account.


----------



## Chard56

Xaltd1 said:


> Good for you!!!
> I'll bet your fish are 10X healthier than anyone else's.
> Petcosmart are interested in making a quick buck by selling a fish as a novelty decoration that's going to be dead in a few weeks. That doesn't mean the fish are poor quality, the retailer is just responding to what sells. Do you know that a worker in Petco said when she asked what my new heater was for? "Bettas don't need heaters!" aaahhhgggrr


 They don't, "need" heaters to live; they need heaters to thrive. My partners wife keeps them in their mobile home on a special shelf. No heater, so of course since they live for several years she insists that they don't need heaters. I can talk until I'm blue in the face stressing the point that they are only staying alive at 70 degrees but I'm sure you know the routine. Some people are just too stubborn to listen. She knows absolutely everything about every subject anyway so I gave up a long time ago. If you want to know anything just as(k) 'ole what's er name


----------



## titolatino1970

i just bought this one


----------



## Xaltd1

OMG GORGEOUS!!! Love him!!!

Chard, don't you love the "know it alls"? They're such fun to mess with! I used to have a neighbor who would come over and critisize my house, pointing out repairs that had to be made (as if I didn't know). I would tell him "since you know what you're doing and seem to have time on your hands, come over and fix things." I would say this in all seriousness, he would be slackjawed.


----------



## Crowntails

Perhaps if people start breeding VTs for more "exotic" colors, they would get showed. It probably won't happen, but the thought of it would be nice. There are many VTs out there that I think are show worthy and shouldn't be excluded from being shown.

Like this guy, he's a beauty:








Or him:


----------



## MoonShadow

homegrown terror said:


> this is now the "most beautiful veiltails on the internet" thread.


Hey he's mine! That's Apollo :lol:

This is his sister









I also have this guy, his names Encore









And this is his sister


----------



## Skyewillow

dang, Moonshadow!! nice group of veils there!!


----------



## bettalover2000

Very nice!!


----------



## Basement Bettas

Crowntails said:


> Perhaps if people start breeding VTs for more "exotic" colors, they would get showed. It probably won't happen, but the thought of it would be nice. There are many VTs out there that I think are show worthy and shouldn't be excluded from being shown.


Got to remember there has to be a standard to judge against.. and "pretty" is not one. So breeding unique fish of any tail type makes for interesting fish.. but no really predictable and pure lines. You end up destroying the gene pool just trying to create the next fad. Showing is where a breeder proves they can breed consistent quality in color and form. It is the breeder who is really judged by the fish they produce.


----------



## Chard56

What you'd consider a plain old colored Red or Blue Veiltail could win because of it's finnage and form being closest to the standard over a gorgeous "to die for" Purple and lime Green Dragon with pink pokadots. Pretty colors help me sell and I try to make them SuperVeils but that might not conform to the standards (if they ever reintroduced them). As of now there are no standards for Veiltails in the US. How they carry their finnage is what is important to me.


----------



## Xaltd1

But, for people who just want a pet & don't show/breed, "Pretty" is a great standard! (After Healthy!)
That Dalmatian makes me drool. Where do you live again ;0) ?


----------



## Chard56

That's my point. I can breed all kinds of different colored Veiltails from Dalmations to Purple Dragons and that will help them sell but they won't do any better in the shows because they don't have a standard for them. Even under Form and Finnage they disregard color and judge on form and finnage only so you're still competing against all the other classes for Best of variety Reserve BOV, Best of Show and Reserve BOS. You could possibly get a first place in that class but that's about it. Personally I depend on my sales for income and really don't have time to breed veiltails for show. If they don't look pretty with nice big flowing fins they won't sell and I end up eating mac-n-cheese and ramen noodles, which aren't bad but not as good as a burger or an occassional steak!


----------



## Xaltd1

How do they do on Aquabid? I'm sure VTs would do better on ebay. It seems breeders go to Aquabid for new breeding stock, Ebay for pets. (She says after buying a breeding pair on ebay...)
I get tired of seeing "***BREEDING****!!!" everywhere on both sites. How about "****PET!!!*****"? I feel like the seller is justifying a ridiculous price, and if I wanted the fish "just" as a pet, I'm ruining some sort of genetic lineage or dynasty...


----------



## Chard56

I had two out of ten sold the first day I posted on ebay. The person never paid and nothing was done about it. I got charged a couple dollars for what I thought were free listings and never sold (that I got paid for) anything on there. Even though I was half the price or less than anything else on there. Like if it's not $35 or $40 dollars the buyers with money to burn wouldn't bother buying it. I don't list plain ordinary Veiltails on AB so they sell fairly well. My Purple SuperVeils sell for $18 to $25 for those that have the money and have wanted a Purple Betta ever since they saw one on one of the forums.


----------



## Xaltd1

LOTS of jokers on ebay. I think people "drink & buy" & just never pay. The way the rules are set up now on ebay WAAAAY benefits the buyer. You should require PAYPAL ONLY as payment. Any serious buyers will have a PayPal account. The others are drunk or 12 years old. (Or drunk 12-year-olds.) Pardon to any 12-year-olds out there, no offense. I just know what I was like as an unsupervised 12-year-old. TG there was no internet then!!!!
Offering a "breeding" fish for $45 does weed out a few idiots, perhaps.
Do you send your own instructions for raising a healthy betta? Just curious.


----------



## homegrown terror

Xaltd1 said:


> LOTS of jokers on ebay. I think people "drink & buy" & just never pay. The way the rules are set up now on ebay WAAAAY benefits the buyer. You should require PAYPAL ONLY as payment. Any serious buyers will have a PayPal account. The others are drunk or 12 years old. (Or drunk 12-year-olds.) Pardon to any 12-year-olds out there, no offense. I just know what I was like as an unsupervised 12-year-old. TG there was no internet then!!!!
> Offering a "breeding" fish for $45 does weed out a few idiots, perhaps.
> Do you send your own instructions for raising a healthy betta? Just curious.


when we start selling, we're gonna print off comprehensive instructions to go along with EVERY fish that goes out the door.


----------



## Chard56

I thought about putting some kind of instruction sheet but figured it would be a little insulting until I got an email recently asking where the acclimating information paper was that was supposed to come in the package with the Betta. I just assumed that if you're buying a Betta online that you've already done a little research on the subject. I didn't consider impulse buying or it being their first fish. I guess I''l have to carefully word it to include novices as well as those with more experience.


----------



## bryzy

WOW! Devil and Angel wolf NEVER compare to some of your BEAUTIFUL fish!


----------



## Xaltd1

To address the subject of instructions, I bought some Indian Almond leaves and got an insert saying "Hi! I'm Joe Betta! Did you know I come from the tropics?..." really abc general betta instructions aimed at a grade-school level education. Why would someone ordering leaves need them? I rolled my eyes, but the seller's heart is in the "write" place.
I'm a professional copywriter. Never insult the reader, even if they are 8. "Hi, I'm Joe Betta" is absurd. KISS: keep it simple. You can get so much more valuable information if you eliminate frivolity & stick to the most importand facts, and add LOTS of on-line resources for more info.


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

Whenever I get around to breeding, (and the spawning is successful and I have fry to sell as adults) I will be including instructions for acclimation as long as what I include in my water. I would never do, "Hi, I'm Joe Betta," but I do find that hilariously cute. I think we ordered from the same person, but that sounds familiar. Hah!


----------



## veggiegirl

OMG I feel so silly!!! I have been sitting here drooling over all these gorgeous veilatils (and rightly so they are pretty amazing) when all along I did not even stop and think 'hey I have owned a couple of pretty cool VT over the years' anyway here they are ENJOY!

View attachment 78199


View attachment 78200


View attachment 78201


----------



## Hadoken Kitty

h how gorgeous!!!!


----------



## ao

Kuro use to be a veitail... then he tore it and..... :')
I still think he needs to be spanked...
then again... if i had a crazy big tail like that and my owner left the filter notched up.. I would probably bite it off too.









welll... now he looks like.. this


----------



## Skyewillow

He looks pretty miffed about it too! >_>

He's still handsome to me ^_~


----------



## ao

nah he's all freeedommmmmmmm! lolol
He just wasnt prepared for this shot 

he'll always be my handsome. that annoying peck on my fingers when I'm trying to move something in the tank, the way that hideous tail is paraded before me, the curious head that peaks out when I knock... that bottomless pit of a stomach...

<3


----------



## Setsuna

i saw a veil tail black dragon once


----------



## veggiegirl

Here is peppermint, I got him for my birthday a few years back.......
View attachment 78579


----------



## KevinPham123

^ damn thats nice! that body colour is just amazing


----------



## SnowySurface

homegrown terror said:


>


I am very, very, veeeery rarely in this section because I only own bettas as pets. But I had to coment after seeing these pic. I love bettas with purple coloring but can never find purple pet quality and I don't see the point of owning a breeding worthy betta just for a color. Why does it have to be so rare/hard-to-find? Why?T_T


----------



## veggiegirl

Thanks! He is the same colour as my bedroom walls lol.


----------



## Skyewillow

because all the breeders hold back purples, since they're not as common


----------



## Artemis

I got a lavender at Dave's Soda and Pet City. He was in a tank with some fin nippers but his fins are growing back in. I'll post pics when the get to full splendor. He was my sisters but he lives in my room, VT aren't my preference for petstore ones.


----------



## Xaltd1

I just bought a YELLOW VT female on Aquabid!!!!
She was $15. I don't plan on breeding her, but I HAD to have another bright color w/ different tail-type in the sorority! I have almost all HMs since they're the ones in fashion TODAY. (Who cares about tail-type when they are a pet?) I've never seen a bright yellow VT of either sex.

Yellow is my color. I just successfully spawned my 2 yellow HMs!!! Yaaaaay!!!!


----------



## bannlow2471

Wow, what beautiful Bettas! I have a veiltail also and while I am sure he is not "show quality" he is certainly beautiful to me. 

Out of curiosity, why is it that veiltails are not shown? (Can you tell that I am a complete Betta neophyte?)


----------



## Xaltd1

That's a question we've been trying to answer.

One explanation is that the VTs were so popular in retail stores that the type is overbred. The sanctioning body, the IBC, wants to put focus on other tail types I assume. If you read the thread from the start, there are other ideas.


----------



## bniebetta

OMG I want the white one with purple!!


----------



## Xaltd1

Check Aquabid and eBay, plus sellers on this board. Chard56 is actively breeding VTs.

I have a feeling that, to be worth $, LOTS of VT fry have to be culled (killed) to the few novel ones. IMO.


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## bserrano2

while i believe all bettas are beautiful in their own way, I personally lover veil tails. Here Renji:


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## Xaltd1

SO pretty!
I just bought an orange HM girl. I wanted a good, clean orange for my sorority. Of course, only HMs available on Aquabid.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Xaltd1 said:


> SO pretty!
> I just bought an orange HM girl. I wanted a good, clean orange for my sorority. Of course, only HMs available on Aquabid.


Not true!!! I've seen every tail type on AB before!


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## Xaltd1

Right, if you monitor them a lot. If I go on Aquabid too often, I will not be able to pay the rent!!! I only visit AQ when I have a few $100 to burn. I'm not getting out much these days, so I've been indulging... is Aquabid cheaper than heroin? I don't know!


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## logisticsguy

You will never see VTs at shows again ever imo because the "show people" have not had any VTs for years themselves and they would not have any advantage over us regular folk. So why would they ever make a category for VTs. It is not in "their" best interest to do so. But Im a smug narcissist regarding betta shows. There wouldn't be any politics in the "Betta show world" right?


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## MattsBettas

I think that with enough lobbying vts will be back in shows. The halfmoons have to go out of fashion one day, right?


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## Xaltd1

Hadoken Kitty said:


> Not true!!! I've seen every tail type on AB before!


I was being sarcastic, sorry. If you look at the numbers if each tail type listed, there are about 500 HMs vs about 20 VTs. When I go on Aquabid, I'm looking for a really specific fish: usually (always) I'm looking for bright colored females that will make my aquarium really pop! Females of all tail types only make up about 1/4 of what's listed, then over 50% (I'm guessing) are Cambodians (nothing against them, I have a Cambodian CT). Yesteday, I wanted a yellow girl and an orange female, any tale shape. I lucked out in the VT section (she was $15), but I had to plow through dozens of listings to get a clean, bright orange girl, and she was listed in the HM's.

On other attempts, I've only found the colors in the HM category. I'd be happier to find my desired color for $15 in the VT category instead of $25 in the HM category!!!


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## Dragonlady

logisticsguy said:


> You will never see VTs at shows again ever imo because the "show people" have not had any VTs for years themselves and they would not have any advantage over us regular folk. So why would they ever make a category for VTs. It is not in "their" best interest to do so. But Im a smug narcissist regarding betta shows. There wouldn't be any politics in the "Betta show world" right?


 
VT bettas were recently shown at a recent show in Europe.  VT that are bred by yourself can be shown in variations. If enough breeders show them, VT will eventually get their own class and not be judged against the HM standard. The problem is that not enough breeders seem to be interested in showing VT. It is a shame though...since VT and DT used to be the only types of bettas shown.:|


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## logisticsguy

Dragonlady said:


> VT bettas were recently shown at a recent show in Europe.  VT that are bred by yourself can be shown in variations. If enough breeders show them, VT will eventually get their own class and not be judged against the HM standard. The problem is that not enough breeders seem to be interested in showing VT. It is a shame though...since VT and DT used to be the only types of bettas shown.:|


Agree. maybe we can start an online petition  

Im joining the IBC and it is going to be an issue for me as well more shows in more places.


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## Chard56

I don't think this the place for a petition or that a petition is the way to approach the subject. Like Dragonlady said and has been said on the IBC forum, if enough people enter Veiltails in the shows and request to consider making a new standard for them in the proper way, then and only then will an attempt at changing the standard be made. There is a certain protocol and presentation involved in putting it before the commitee or governing body of the club.


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## justmel

I thought I was the only Veiltail lover! Glad to know I'm not alone. I've thought about breeding veiltails, but would need to find places to sell them first.

Here is my Mr. Fish. He started my betta passion & I know have 15.


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## bannlow2471

justmel said:


> I thought I was the only Veiltail lover! Glad to know I'm not alone. I've thought about breeding veiltails, but would need to find places to sell them first.
> 
> Here is my Mr. Fish. He started my betta passion & I know have 15.


Wow, he's gorgeous!


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## Xaltd1

As some of you know, I bought a yellow female VT from Aquabid... only to discover he's a young male!!!
He is up for adoption for postage/pickup/2 hr drive. He is a gorgeous fish, but I was hoping to spawn my yellow HM's. I just don't have room for the poor guy!
His fins are a little ripped from when I tried to add him to the sorority :roll:
I live just North of Boston, just South of the NH border.


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## justmel

Xaltd,

That had to be a great disappointment. He's gorgeous! Depending on price I would definitely take him off your hands, but will give some of the longer standing members first dibs. If you want to know a bit about me, my intro thread is here http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=143954


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## SamJustice

Oh boy! I wish I could afford to pay for shipping Xaltd1! ;-; I'd love to welcome him into my home.

Chard, you've such pretty fish, I wish I could afford them! ;-;


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## Chard56

That's why I only charge $10 for priority shipping. That barely covers the materials and shipping fees. That way you can still buy a pretty Veiltail or Delta for 5 to 8 bucks and not cost a fortune for the whole package. Here's a pretty little Gold one I've been waiting on to growout.


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## SamJustice

Oh good lord, he's gorgeous. Are you selling him, or any like him? Because.. I might just have to horde that 8 dollars and walk instead of catch the public transit for school. xD


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## justmel

Chard

That is a beautiful VT! I may just say the heck to it and breed VT's since they are my fav rather than a more popular type. Once I have everything together for spawning I may have to get in touch with you. A bit more research to do yet though.


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## Chard56

Sam Justice and Justmel. I don't post for sale ads in anything other than in the classified. I think it's rude to do otherwise and have called people on it in the past. That's something that should be conducted in private messages.


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## justmel

Chard56 said:


> Sam Justice and Justmel. I don't post for sale ads in anything other than in the classified. I think it's rude to do otherwise and have called people on it in the past. That's something that should be conducted in private messages.


No problem and totally understood. That's why I said I would have to talk to you sometime. I'm to new to access the classified thread yet, but I will get there. I also looked at some of your fish on aquabid. Anyway, when I have things set up better here and am able to check out the classified I am sure you will here from me!


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## MoonShadow

Xaltd1 said:


> As some of you know, I bought a yellow female VT from Aquabid... only to discover he's a young male!!!
> He is up for adoption for postage/pickup/2 hr drive. He is a gorgeous fish, but I was hoping to spawn my yellow HM's. I just don't have room for the poor guy!
> His fins are a little ripped from when I tried to add him to the sorority :roll:
> I live just North of Boston, just South of the NH border.


I would love him! Bostons about 3 hours and 15 min from me, so a bit far to drive! How much for shipping? Pm me!!


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## Darth

Ok, a show veil will have the Caudal and the tail meeting or over laping, no "Sattelites" or "Daffodils" The top line will be judged the same as any other HM.
Full tail not skinny or pointed...just saying, if you want Veils to be considered you must breed for the standard, and to show, you must be the breeder.
I also breed Veils and I was around when they were at shows, and the talk is if the right person or persons get in there will be something done, hey vote for the one that is talking about them hmmmm her is a hint Bas...


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## caissacrowntails

_*a show veil will have the Caudal and the tail meeting or over laping*_.
sorry, the caudal and the tail? I know u probably mean dorsal or anal, but which one?

_*Full tail not skinny or pointed*_...
like..round tail?


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## Darth

Picture a girl with long hair that has a sweep at the end from a side profile.


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## PeetaTheBetta

Agree!!!! I have a VT of my own. Very PRETTY


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## Darth

Here is somewhat how a Show Veil should look, this is NOT a real good example but you get the idea, see how the fins are close together and not all separate?

No huge gaps.


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## Taeanna

Correct me if I'm wrong but the point of most breeds is to basically make the fish look like a giant frilly perfectly round pancake of fins right? (Please note I have no show experience lol, I have simply been reading guides for fun)
Only with a veil's tail isnt it better to aim for a shape more consistent with a tear drop like that one? A very very fat tear drop with eyes at the point.


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## Darth

The sweep of the tail is nice on this one but it could be cleaned up and more from to it, for a halfmoon you have to picture a full circle about midway through the betta so ys for HM that would be correct, Veils are a bit different as the circle would be on the outside of the fish, Kinda.


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## Chard56

I think this one was one of the best looking Veitails I've raised. Ideally it's Caudal could be a tad thinner to meet the European standards but I like it like it is.


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## Luimeril

this is the show standard for veils, according to this website:


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## Darth

European are different than us Chard we like that caudal wide and touching the tail not longer either..this was how it was back in 75 anyway.
That is a very nice one hey, I have the smoothest orange male you ever saw and I also have a dalmation but no orange females, do you have any?


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## Chard56

I have an Orange Crossray Crowntail X Copper Orange HMPK spawn about 2 and 1/2 months old. A Very small spawn of maybe 12, I already sold two females from it and it looks like only one or two more left. I want to do a sibling spawn to see if I can get the Crossray CT and some CTPK's back in F-2. There's also a Copper HMPK X Gold Yellow HMPK spawn of a month old. Other than those that's all I have for anything Orange.


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## Darth

Ok thanks. I will look for an orange in HM, that way In a couple gens I will get some nice stock.
I will also be saving some of the veils and superveils though.


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## Dressagerider1011

Wow those are some fish


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## MoonShadow

Here's my new boy, going to play with him as I get back into the breeding game!



crossing him with a lovely delta lady bred by Kayla Griffen


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## Taeanna

Not only is he incredibly handsome, but his eye makes it look like he is thinking adorably evil thoughts..and likely trying hard to grow an arm to punch something.


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## coreyh

this is a pic of my new yellow veiltail male, he's rather pale in the picture but is brighter in person and has an orange tinge to the fins so he might turn orange on me after he settles in and gets put on some good food. This is him, just swimming, and shows how graceful those big tails look as they move. That's one of the reasons I love this variety, gorgeous fish that just aren't appreciated the same way fancier fin types are.


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## Darth

Ok folks, I bred some Veils not a lot but I keep them around for color reasons, many of the reds today are Cambodian Crosses..Boy I sure would love to have a pair of classic white and reds..anyway here is one of my red males from a line I have this is more of what a show Veil would be.






Notice there are no gaps? See how the tail flows and isn't longer than the caudal..as I said before, back in the day we showed veils we never liked the European standard, this is what we were shooting for.


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## Darth

He is torn up from breeding his rays used to be nice and straight and overall he was in a lot better shape, but you get the idea.
This guy and his mate made some really fine young.


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## registereduser

Darth said:


> He is torn up from breeding his rays used to be nice and straight and overall he was in a lot better shape, but you get the idea.
> This guy and his mate made some really fine young.


Those are the LONGEST ventrals I've ever seen! I thought my veils had long ventrals but this guy wins the contest :lol: Is this a trait of veils? because I have never noticed really long ventral fins on any other type of betta.


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## Darth

I am breeding him for form and fullness, his offspring should be real lookers because the female was outstanding, the female is the real key to great fish.


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## lillyandquigly

Skyewillow said:


> Does he fit in here at all? (he's still a youngster though)


He's got gorgeous form, he looks gorgeous!


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## Patong

While I like veiltails I don't really understand how you would go about breeding quality ones from pet store stock :-?. 

Without knowing the genetic background of a fish you'd just be throwing two fish together based solely on looks with no knowledge of what that fish is capable of producing. It'd be like me going out side tracking down two feral cats and mating them together in the hopes to eventually set enough traits so that they would be distinguishable from average petstore fare.

Breeding based solely on visual phenotype is unpredictable and it just seems like it'd be easier to import show quality veils from a country that allows them to be show and develop our own strains from there.

Also it kinda seems like people here want a 'pet quality' class to be included in betta shows and while that sounds like awesome fun it could also be crazy problematic. 

I've been to cat shows with categories for best pet quality cat and without a standard to judge against the people whose cats don't win are always at a loss as to why. What does a judge tell someone whose pet lost when the winning animal was chosen based on nothing more then the whims of the judge? 

I'd love to see the U.S.A adopt other countries vieltail standard and bring back showing them, but going out to pet store and trying to 'breed up' just seems so hard.....


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## Chard56

It is hard. I know from personal experience. I started back breeding Bettas over 5 years ago with pet store stock. You couldn't then and for the most part still can't buy a decent Halfmoon female. I can look at a male and tell from their form and finnage if he will be a good addition to my breeding program or he might have decent finnage and I want the color. I started entering my Purple Veitails in show this last season but due to finances I was unable to send enetries to the last three shows. I went from 9th place to 20th, OUCH! By entering Veiltails in the form and finnage class they are still judged by standards and not just on the whim of that particular judge. If people want to see Veiltails in the shows they need to put their Bettas where their mouth is and enter their Veiltails themselves. I did, now where's yours?


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## Patong

Yes Exactly!! I've seen alot of proposals to include veil tails as a 'pet quality just for fun type class' and i don't think thats the way to go at all! People need to actively send veiled bettas out and lobby for a real separate class for them. 

Breeding up is certainly possible but i don't think the average hobbyist has the fortitude to stick with it and sometimes I think being unable to find real quality stock discourages new breeders from bothering with veils and thats depressing


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## Ilikebutterflies

VT can be shown. There HAS to be enough individuals to have a separate class. If more VT were entered there would be a class for them. You like VT? Good. Send them to the show.


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## beurxelf

A lot of people only likes the crown tail. I like my veiltail that i purchased from a dollar store.  

Meet my alpha-betta!


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## Raging

He isn't exactly show quality, but this is my veil tail, Commander Crunch/Moscato. I really bought him on an impulse. I picked him up and just had a bizarre "I must have this fish" feeling. I even had to buy an extra tank for him.

The picture of him in his cup was taken at the store. I was showing him to my friend along with a text that said "I need this betta!"





























Most of my friends prefer my DT Delfino because he's blue, but Commander has such a huge personality for a little fish.


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## veggiegirl

okay so this guy was for sale here a few days ago he has since been placed on hold. Think he was like $30 US. I was tempted but for spending that much I would prefer a HM plakat. Beautiful boy though, it is not often that a VT catches my attention but this guy sure did!

View attachment 189778


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## LittleBettaFish

It's one of Fishchick's VT males if I am not mistaken. 

God she gets some nice fish in. It is almost enough to tempt me into splendens.


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## veggiegirl

Yep he's one of fishchicks


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## LittleBettaFish

I wonder who her supplier is for VTs as she always gets in unusually coloured ones with generally pretty good form.


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## cobylyn

*Gorgeous!!*



trilobite said:


> And this! And he even reaches 180 haha
> Vts when done properly look way nicer than any other longfin type in my opinion


He is gorgeous!! :-D


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## cobylyn

*amazing!*



veggiegirl said:


> okay so this guy was for sale here a few days ago he has since been placed on hold. Think he was like $30 US. I was tempted but for spending that much I would prefer a HM plakat. Beautiful boy though, it is not often that a VT catches my attention but this guy sure did!
> 
> View attachment 189778


Holy moly! That is an amazing looking fish!


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## rckstr1253

Fenghuang said:


> These fish are the reason why I can never buy from Aquabid. They would be mine and I would be broke!


Anybody have a betta that looks like this? I would definitely be all over one.


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## Darth

Daffodil
Satelite this is the form I would avoid, color is great but terrible form for a veil


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## Darth

Here is the form you should persue.




These have flaws but this is what was considered show form back when I was showing in 1973 the others were European form and not well liked By Jim Sonnier and the guys I knew


Soory for the double pic..I don't know how to take em off


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## jadaBlu

I have a red one that has a form like this but he has violet scales which I have read is a fault.



Darth said:


> Here is the form you should persue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These have flaws but this is what was considered show form back when I was showing in 1973 the others were European form and not well liked By Jim Sonnier and the guys I knew
> 
> 
> Soory for the double pic..I don't know how to take em off


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## redthebetta

Wow. Just wow.


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## bigbettadan

I prefer the old IBC style for the proposed VT standard but there seems to be alot of people that want to go for the European style. But again it will come down to what people actually show and promote. So far not many actually showing them in variations. So if you care about this actually breed and show.

Dan


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