# So confused on set up!



## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

I've been reading stuff over the course of a few months and everything seems to all say different things. I know its mean to put any fish in a tiny bowl and I know bettas need a heater in their tank but tank size and what method to filter and clean and the tank and how often i`m so confused on. How hard is it to have live plants in the aquarium and what benefit are they? Do they require much extra care/ time then fake? I don't really understand about filtering at all. I LOVE bettas and they are so pretty. I really want one but i want to understand how to take care of it first. is there a simple do this version to having a betta? what are the start up costs generally? i feel like my brain is going to explode from trying to figure this out. Started on random sites but then I figured why trust anyone other then a forum when that is obviously a group of people dedicated to the care of the fish and want them to have good conditions and to survive. so i`m just going to wipe everything i`ve previously looked at and listen to you guys. Please don't disagree too much because i`m already confused and frustrated as it is. :-?


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## Ayane Hajinmon (Dec 30, 2011)

ok i got it out of this thread to help me when i was new MUST READ! General Betta Care and FAQ (V. 3.0)

*Tank Equipment: *

-*Tank* of AT LEAST *2 Gallons*. Some people believe in 5 gallons as minimum. Yes, a fish can live in small tanks, but they thrive in proper conditions in roomy areas. 
-*Heater*. heater, heater, heater. This is absolutely needed. The temperature in the tank needs to stay at least at *78 degrees*. These are tropical fish, and become very lethargic if kept in cold water. A light will not be sufficient enough for heat. In the night, temperature can easily drop 8+ degrees, which can kill as fish. Room temperature is not enough either. Hydor makes a wonderful heater for small tanks of 2.5 gallons and less. It resembles a heating pad and they work wonderfully while not being overly expensive.
-*Hiding Spots*: Hiding spots, such as caves, make bettas fell *secure*. This way, they can escape from light and rest. Make sure the hiding spots are not sharp, as bettas have very delicate fins. 
-*Filter*: This is actually not needed, but it helps. Bettas need a light filter with *low flow*. They should have very little water movement in a tank. The filter will also keep water clean. 
-*Light*: This helps when it gets dark. Most tanks come with some sort of light, but if not, that should be fine. Simple desk lamps or reading lamps can help give yoru betta the right amount of light. 
-*Thermometer*: This will help keep the temperature under control. 
-*Liquid Test Kit*: A liquid Test Kit will help keep you know your Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH levels. *Ammonia* and nitrite should always be 0, nitrates under 20ppm, and pH at a level of 6-7.5. 
-*Access to Air*. Betta spendens gets its oxygen from *breathing air at the surface*. That is the function of the labyrinth organ. If a betta can’t reach the surface for oxygen, it will drown. For this reason, while it is important to offer a well decorated environment, it is also important to make sure the betta has plenty of easy access to the surface of the water. The air temp above the water needs to be close to the temp of the water to avoid infections and shock. 

*Maintenance: *

A betta needs some sort of maintenance, as would any other fish. They are not "magic fish" and can take care of themselves. Here is a list to insure the best care of your betta in which you, the owner, must provide. 

1) *Weekly Water changes*. A filter cannot take out everything in the water. Would you like to live in your own poop? This is why bettas need regular water changes.
A betta tank should never need 100% water changes unless working with medications. Too drastic of a change in water params can cause illness and death to any fish. Bettas can withstand more than the average tropical fish, and 50% changes are good for them if done frequently enough. The smaller the tank size the more frequent the water changes should be done. Anything under 2.5 gallons should have a 50% change every other day. 2.5 and more should have 50% changes at least twice/wk. If a filter is running in the tank, 50% changes once/wk are usually plenty.
2) *Testing Water*. You need to keep an eye out for your bettas water paramaters. Water params are nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, pH, and water hardness. A good liquid test kit will help determine what is in the water. Ammonia and nitrite should be at 0, and nitrates under 20. The pH level should be between 6-7.5. If any levels seem wrong, do a water change to get clean water in the tank.


i hope it help 
as for plant and stuff...i have no experience with those...so hopefully with more knowledge would come along and help


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi, and kudos to you for caring so much about giving your betta a good home. 

I'm a new betta owner and I have found it all a bit confusing as well, regarding conflicting information. In the end, I am just doing what keeps my fish clean, happy and healthy.

I have a 3.5 g tank. My fish is awesomely happy and healthy in it (now the lingering pet store issues are gone) and has adequate room to swim about. His environment is full of plants -- low light species, and floating water lettuce, which he loves to lurk in. It also provides a place for him to rest near the surface. I'm liking the little terracotta pots of anubias I bought, as well. Java moss and java fern also tolerate 'betta friendly' conditions. 

Live plants help to keep the ammonia levels down (in conjunction with water changes) and provide a place for your fish to hide and play in. 

I found it handy to stock up on a variety of foods, as bettas are often picky. Variety is also healthy - live foods like brine shrimp and black worms make good treats, and I alternate flakes with pellets. Dry foods should have protein as a first ingredient on the label. 

I also recommend a little 'first aid and care kit" - gravel vaccuum, aquarium salt, stress guard, water conditioner of course, and ich treatment (I used protozin with great success) just in case. I also have a small hospital tank with its own heater (currently housing Daughter's betta, temporarily) which can be kept free of ornaments and gravel, so I can monitor the fish and change water daily without hassle. 

One important thing I have learned is that spending a few dollars more to begin with can save a lot of stress on the fish (and on you too!) later on. 

As for water changes, etc, it depends on what size tank you have. I'm really confused currently by the issue of whether it's possible to cycle a tank under 5 gallons. Some swear it's "impossible", some say it's possible but tricky, others cycle 3 gallon tanks quite successfully.. bleh. I really don't know. Upgrading to a 5g will help cut the confusion. In the meantime, clean water and good food is doing the trick.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Welcome, and I'm glad to see you are asking questions rather then just getting one without proper knowledge.

For tank size, it depends on your budget and the space you are able to provide. Anywhere from a gallon on up is appropriate and recommended for bettas. I use a couple of gallon tanks for a couple of mine for different reasons, and they are happy and healthy as can be. It's about proper care over tank size. There is no true minimum in a betta tank, as people keep them in half gallons as well. Not recommended as it's nearly impossible to properly heat a half gallon for the average person.

In tanks under 5 gallons, regardless if it's 1 or 3.5 gallons, they will require the same amount of water changes- with or without a filter, with or without live plants.
Without a filter, and without live plants you would be doing 1 50% and 1 100% water change per week in a tank under 5 gallons. In tanks of 5+ gallons unfiltered it would be 1 50% per week and 1 100% per month. 

With a filter and without live plants it would be 1 50% water only and 1 50% substrate vacuuming per week in tanks under 5 gallons. In tanks of 5+ gallons it would be just 1 50% per week with weekly vacuuming of the substrate.

Without a filter and with live plants it would be 1 50% change per week, 1 100% per month for tanks under 5 gallons. For tanks 5+ gallons it would be weekly 50%, and 1 100% once a month.

With a filter and with live plants it would be 2 25% per week in a tank under 5 gallons, vacuuming twice a month. For tanks 5+ gallons it would be 25-30% weekly water changes, vacuuming twice a month.

It also depends on how many live plants you have.. you would increase slightly if you only have 1 or 2 small live plants. The more plants you have, the less you have to clean weekly.

Easy plant guide
There are very easy plants that require little light and don't need filtration such as Java ferns/moss, anubias, Naja grass, etc. Live plants can help keep the water clean and breaks down waste into fertilizer. If you go for root based plants, you will need fertilizers.. the lighting you will have to see what each plant you get needs.. since some are pickier then others. Otherwise, silk plants or very soft plastic plants are just fins to use- anything without points and spiky parts to rip their fins.

For simple start up I would go with a kritter keeper, the medium is roughly 1.75 gallons, the large is roughly 2.75 gallons.. with a heater of 25-50 watts, adjustable (adjustable tend to be more reliable, and with the larger wattage you can use the same heater if you upgrade to larger tanks- the 50w would work up and to a 10 gallon). A desk light is enough light for them- would have to check to see whether it has enough k light; a lot of plants tend to like 5500k-6500k lights if you go with live plants. If fake plants then I would use a 40watt bulb on a desk lamp to light them up just fine without making the temp change. A cave would be appreciated by males, as most tend to love them. A filter is not needed, but if you choose you can always buy a very small filter to place in there.

The cost will depend on what you are wanting- conditioner is only a few dollars, and decorations aren't too expensive either- can go to craft stores for the rocks on the bottom, or use those glass rocks.. can use a lot of other things you find around the home too- such as ceramics that are glazed/fired, coffee mugs, candle holders, legos, etc. Bettas aren't always that picky, so you can build up more in time as you go.. just as long as there are a few plants in there (real or fake) he will be happy. Certain live plants will cost more as they will need sand and fert, but the easy ones don't even need a substrate, just a large rock to be tied to. 
For further questions about what live plants to get once you decide on the tank, I would private message Pewpewpew or Oldfishlady since they are the resident plant experts.

Ayane.. even though that is a sticky on here.. there are a lot of information a lot of people would disagree on with it.. as there is no minimum tank size.. and the statement "_The smaller the tank size the more frequent the water changes should be done. Anything under 2.5 gallons should have a 50% change every other day._" is not ideal, as the water can be too clean and in the long run will not benefit the betta. Been meaning to ask someone about that sticky.. 

Anyways, good luck, and if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask!


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

ok so now that i have a general idea on tank size... how long does it take to do the water changes? When you change the water what is the process? If you don't take it all out then obviously it isn't "clean" but it prevents shock and stuff which I get, but after a period of time I assume you have to clean the whole tank to get the rocks and stuff? How often do you do that? I'm probably getting 2.5-3gallon tank when i figure things out more if that information helps. And a light and heater obviously. Here is another probably dumb question... how do you know what filter to get to have the proper flow for bettas? I assume aquarium kits may not have the correct filter automatically for them? If i got a larger tank 5 or more gallons and could cycle it what is that process and does it save time overall or is it just nicer because its larger? What stuff besides the necessities have you learned through trial and error or come across that just makes betta care tons easier? (not that it seems too complicated but i figure I might as well take advantage of collective knowledge instead of learning the hard way). This may also be dumb but don't most fertilizers contain nitrates? How do you fertilize the plants if you are trying to keep those levels down? And how do you maintain levels for the plants when you change the water so often? Does the vacuum thing help a lot for changing water or is that mostly for the 100% cleans? I guess i really just don't know what all goes into the changing water at different percentages or have any idea how long it takes. 

While I don't mind spending time taking care of a pet, i want to make sure that there should never be an issue with being able to do it if i were to have periods where i am super busy or something. at that point i would rather just wait to get a pet later then force it to deal with my lack of time, which is why i am curious about how long things take. Obviously theres a learning curb to familiarize myself with the process so it will take longer up front too. 

here is another question. I read that they can escape from tanks so you need a lid... besides that and size is there any factors that would make an aquarium a bad choice? shape wise or other wise? Are there shapes that are harder to clean then others or anything like that? Is bamboo a suitable plant for bettas?


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## Enkil (Jan 15, 2012)

I'll tell you how I do mine and see if that helps you at all.

I have a male betta in a 3.5 gallon setup that we bought at PetSmart. It has LED lighting (with 4 colors and 12 settings but we only use the first one). He has an unbaffled filter (this is his preference) and a live anubias plant which floats (these can also be tied down to root onto decorations or rocks).
I do 1 50% water change a week. I first remove Hannibal, putting him in the cup we bought him in. I then remove roughly 50% of the tank's water. Then I get new water and treat it before putting it in the tank. Afterwards, I float Hannibal in his cup in his tank so he can adjust to the temperature. After acclimating him, I release him back into his tank. The whole process usually doesn't take me very long at all.

With gravel vacs, aquariums with corners can be a bit tricky (so I have heard).

Bamboo is not a suitable aquarium plant. As it isn't aquatic, it decays. There are a lot of plants that are very low maintenance for fresh water tanks though. Such as anubias, java moss, and java fern to name just a couple.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

I'll go ahead and step on a bunch of land mines. I understand your confusion and I must say it is not surprising considering all the conflicting advice which you have already noticed. Even in this thread there is conflicting advice. So here I am to add more fuel to the fire...

*Aquarium Size:*
There is really two questions. What is the minimum to keep alive, and what is the minimum for a healthy, happy fish? These two questions have two different answers.

To keep alive, you can do it in a 2.5 gallon, a 1 gallon, you can do it in even less... you know those cups you see them in? They've likely lived in that for 6+ months. The smaller the bowl, the more water changes you have to do. Why? Fish produce ammonia as waste, and just like with humans ammonia is toxic. This build up happens immediatly, so the smaller volume of water, the faster this rises. Any amount of ammonia is toxic, there is no safe amount.

To keep one not only alive, but truly happy you should consider a 5g as a minimum, as it offers numerous advantages. More space for the betta to swim is a major plus, but there are more. One is that the tank can effectively hold a cycle. What's a cycle? It's the process of beneficial bacteria that consumes ammonia as a food, and produces Nitrite as a waste. Nitrite (with an I) is even worse than Ammonia, but again a type of bacteria will consume that as food and produce Nitrate (with an A). Nitrate is also toxic, but must less so than Ammonia or Nitrite.

You can read more about the cycle, and how to achieve one without hurting your fish here: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/

Now, I know a lot of people will say their betta is perfectly happy in small bowls, for example in the 2.5g range, but I'm personally not convinced. You could take a human and get them to live for decades in a closet feeding them daily, and emptying a chamber pot. But are they truly happy even if they smile, laugh, and play? I know, humans aren't fish, but still... something to think about in any case.

As another plug for a larger tank, know that they are easier to care for your fish. Larger volumes of water are more forgiving to mistakes than smaller volumes.

A happy fish is a healthy fish. When stressed, just like in humans, their immune system will be weakened making them more susceptible to disease.

*Filters:*
These serve three purposes. One is they agitate the water which provides oxygen, not so important with bettas as they breath air from the surface. Two they provide mechanical filtration, which is the removal of floating particles in the water. This helps keep the water clear. Third is they usually contain a sponge like pad which provides a large surface area for the beneficial bacteria that I talked about earlier. You need one appropriately sized for your tank, don't go over board, the betta will not appreciate a strong current because it will take more energy to stand still, and thus cause stress.

*Plants:*
Plants are the natural filters, and they do it very well. They assimilate ammonia as a nutrient, and they do it better than the beneficial bacteria mentioned above. The capacity for which they use ammonia is dependent on many factors, but in general the faster a plant grows, the more ammonia it will use. In addition, plants will remove several other toxins from the water and take the place of activated carbon. You will still want to use a mechanical filter to help keep the water clear, and pick up any slack in the biological filtration.

Anubias, Java Fern, and Java Moss have all been mentioned, they are all an easy low light plant. However, they are also some of the slowest growing of plants which means relatively speaking they do the least in terms of using ammonia. That's not to say they are bad, they are not, every live plant will help in the reduction of Ammonia.

The best plants for dealing with ammonia are floating plants, this is because they are at the surface of the water and thus closest to the light source. Secondly, if their leaves are above the water they can assimilate CO2 directly for the air which is far, far easier for plants than under water. Popular floating plants include Duckweed, Amazon Frogbit, Water Sprite, and sometimes Brazilian Penneywort.

Second for fast growing are stem plants, and there are lots of choices for them. Some require more light than others. A personal favorite of mine is Wisteria.

For care, live plants are simple, they pretty much need no care. A liquid fertilizer once a week is usually the only thing you need to do for them. The best is a comprehensive fertilizer like Flourish. Even a small bottle will last you years, and it does not expire. The other is a light, you want a Daylight bulb with a color temperature in the 6500K range. No need to buy expensive bulbs at pet stores marketed for plants, just go to a hardware store and look a daylight bulbs that say 6500K on them. They work better, and are cheaper. An enriched substrate like eco complete is not required.

With enough fast growing plants you would not have to worry about cycling your tank, the plants will out-compete the bacteria for ammonia.

Don't let plants scare you, they really are not bad.

*Maintenance:*
Okay, so the real work of what YOU have to do.

In a small tank that can not hold a cycle, you must do a 100% water change every week, and often another 50% change in the middle of the week. It is the only way to remove the toxic Ammonia. The smaller the volume, the more frequent the changes. For the 100% change you must 'cup' the betta then re-acclimate him to the new water temperature/parameters. This does cause stress to the betta.

In a larger tank that can hold a cycle, you only need to do a partial water change weekly, 25%-50% depending on volume and number of live plants. The substrate will need to be vacuumed during this partial water change if you do not have plants. If you have a fully planted aquarium, you do not vacuum the gravel.

For a filter you will want to take the pad out during the weekly water change and rinse it off in tank water (not tap, chlorine will kill the bacteria). In a non-planted tank you need to replace the cartridge monthly because the activated carbon only lasts so long. In a planted tank, remove the carbon on day one (it will remove nutrients the plants need), you can use the pad until it literally disintegrates on you just rinse it weekly to keep water flowing through it.

*Costs:*
Bigger = more expensive, usually but not always. But as you can see above, bigger = less work.

A 5.5g will run you ~$35 for a tank, hood, and light at Petsmart. You will need to add a heater, filter, substrate, and decorations. Prices vary by store, I recommend Amazon.com for everything but the tank and substrate.

A 10g may actually be cheaper, on sale for $48 in Petsmart they have a 10g setup that has everything but substrate and decorations. Be sure to get the tropical kit, not the goldfish kit. With this, if you decide in the future, you could buy a tank divider and have a second betta at minimal extra cost & work.

Then, of course, there are all the silly 'fancy' aquariums that are in more aesthetically pleasing shapes than the standard boring rectangle. They will cost you much, much more though. It pays to be fashionable, even in the fish world 

Hopefully I helped answer your questions, and hopefully I haven't added to your confusion. Feel free to ask any questions, and welcome to the hobby!


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

k stupid question when dipping filter in tank water since you are cleaning it are u dipping it in the new treated water for the aquarium or the old water? old water doesn`t make sense but figured i should ask in case it for some reason is right. I'm planning on waiting for the next massive fish sale at the pet store as i don`t pay full price for barely anything. larger does sound better. plants sound like the way to go for me i like them to begin with and have some houseplants/ orchids so i'm not completely new at plant care, just aquarium plant care. I'm surprised to hear bamboo doesn't work as they do keep in water but the leaves have to be above the water. not only that but they sell it in the petstore here as an aquarium plant.  weird. of course they also sell those teeny tiny bowls for bettas so i`m not really that surprised. i'm going to look at aquarium books today hopefully and may be pick some up. i've got a bunch of sell to do today but will be back on tonight probably with more questions.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

with larger aquariums how exactly do u change the water? I'm assuming u can't get just them to the sink? i certainly couldn't lift that with my back.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Sandrilene said:


> k stupid question when dipping filter in tank water since you are cleaning it are u dipping it in the new treated water for the aquarium or the old water? old water doesn`t make sense but figured i should ask in case it for some reason is right. I'm planning on waiting for the next massive fish sale at the pet store as i don`t pay full price for barely anything. larger does sound better. plants sound like the way to go for me i like them to begin with and have some houseplants/ orchids so i'm not completely new at plant care, just aquarium plant care. I'm surprised to hear bamboo doesn't work as they do keep in water but the leaves have to be above the water. not only that but they sell it in the petstore here as an aquarium plant.  weird. of course they also sell those teeny tiny bowls for bettas so i`m not really that surprised. i'm going to look at aquarium books today hopefully and may be pick some up. i've got a bunch of sell to do today but will be back on tonight probably with more questions.


You use the old aquarium water, the purpose is just to get as much gunk off as you can so that water can flow through it easily. See below on how...



Sandrilene said:


> with larger aquariums how exactly do u change the water? I'm assuming u can't get just them to the sink? i certainly couldn't lift that with my back.


A bucket and a siphon. I use a 2.5 gallon bucket with handle that you find in a department stores cleaning isle. The siphon you get at the pet store, it is basically just a tube with a larger tube on one end, that's the vacuum part.

You put the bucket on the floor, it needs to be lower in elevation than the tank. You put the siphon in the tank and get a suction started, the ones they sell now have a bulb on the tube and it works kind of like a turkey baster. You squeeze it a couple times and it sucks water up and gets it going. once it starts flowing, gravity takes over with the water going from the high tank, to the low bucket.

Here is a link: Top Fin® Aquarium Gravel Vacuum - Fish - PetSmart

While you do that you can use the vacuum end to root around in the gravel and suck up the gunk (but like I said, in a fully planted tank you don't do that). When done, take the filter pad out and swish it around in the bucket, and give it a squeeze.

Dump the water in the sink or bathtub, and refill with fresh water. Treat with a conditioner to remove chlorine & chloramine, then slowly pour it back into the tank. No need to remove the betta from the tank during this.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

cool. sounds simple enough to me. i think larger is the way to go if its that much easier to do with less changes and everything. i'm not worried about water usage at all we pay a flat fee for water and don't come close to the amount they charge. they have emptied our water tank on the lawn when they had to replace it and it didn`t even increase our bill. So besides space theres really no issue with it and i don`t think space will be that much of an issue. I picked up a couple books. i was looking through the forum and found one that was recommended and got it and an aquarium plant book as well. haven't had a chance to go through them yet but the information is coming together nicely so far so i'm feeling substantially more confident about starting this. i had a fish when i was little but since i was little my mom did everything regarding the care. If i'm getting a larger aquarium are there fish betta like as tank friends? i have read that two males don't get along well as far as bettas go, is that different with large tanks since they can have their own territory? People say the same about hamsters, but actually you can keep dwarf hamsters together but it can be touchy. I'm not sure how that would wok with fish. do they either fight to the death instantly or can they have falling outs and start fighting? Since i'm new to this i want to basically know what level of expertise is needed if i was to attempt that (if its even possible). Syrian hamsters kept together after maturity, and adult male guinea pigs will kill each other so its just something you don't do is it like that? do the heaters come with a control to keep the temperature the same all the time like with central air? or do you buy that separately? also are there good led lights that are sufficient for water plants or do you have to use a different source?


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

looking through random tanks to see whats out there and there are some cool ones. i was curious though, and i read through the rules for the site and idn't see anything about posting items from stores being against the rules (if i somehow missed it i am sorry and feel free to remove this) but i don't know how to ask the question without posting it. http://www.petco.com/product/117228/Fluval-Edge-Aquarium-Kit-in-Black.aspx This tank looks pretty cool but i'm unsure if it is suitable for bettas as it is saying something about a sealed glass top? if it is sealed is there enough room for air? and even if there is is it going to be good enough quality for the fish to like? this is not necessarily the model i'm most interested i but t is an example of a type i like the look of and need to know if the sealed thing is something i need to stay away from. If i am having water plants they will still produce oxygen i assume but am unsure if that wil be enough for the fish to breathe still if it is sealed and still not sure about this tank being able to have space for air at the top and still function as a tank should. (sorry for posting so much all at once) I figured I should know what to avoid any rule this type of tank out if it is unsuitable. I was mostly interested because of the simply design full view ability and substantial lighting for plants (which i guess answers my led question - unless they are wrong about using them?).


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

You can not keep two bettas together, even a male and a female. Even when breeding, the female should be kept around only long enough to lay eggs as the male will harass her to death. You would need an extremely large aquarium for two males to have enough room to not harass one or the other to death. Basically it is not at alll recommended.

If people want more than one betta in a tank, they usually get tank dividers that will physically separate them while allowing water to flow through.

As for other fish with bettas ... risky in most cases. Bettas do not make good community fish as they are rather aggressive. Personalities can very but it is generally best to not have any middle or upper fish with them. Plain looking substrate fish (catfish, loaches) would be all I would try. In a 10g you couldn't do loaches (they are schooling, and get too large to house a school in a 10g).

Heaters will generally keep a tank at a constant temperature, they have a thermostat on them. Some will have actually temperature numbers on the dial, others will just have + and -. Regardless of the type, you want a thermometer to verify what temp it is at.

For that tank ... it could be an issue, I'm not sure if they allow any airflow or not on the surface. Bettas breath air, they do not get oxygen from the water through gills. You'll see them swim to the surface and take a gulp of air. Thus, they need open air above their aquarium. A covered aquarium is best because it will keep the heat and humidity in giving the betta less of a shock when they breath the air in. An open tank would have low humidity and much lower temperature which isn't good for them.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

In a 10 Gallon you can have 5 or more females, but that's more for experts. lol

I disagree with Geomancer, you can keep a betta with rasboras, platties, endler's, and some tetras as well as cories and loaches. :/


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> In a 10 Gallon you can have 5 or more females, but that's more for experts. lol
> 
> I disagree with Geomancer, you can keep a betta with rasboras, platties, endler's, and some tetras as well as cories and loaches. :/


I don't think Geomancer is saying you can't have bettas with loaches ever. Geomancer's saying you need a tank bigger than 10 gallons so the loaches can school properly. If the OP is getting a 5 or 10 gallon tank then the options for tank mates are very limited. I wouldn't start a community tank of schooling fish in anything smaller than 20 gallons. Even in that case it would be a school of one species of fish and one betta in the 20 gallon. :-?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Eh... I wouldn't for a couple reasons.

Yes, a Betta can be okay with middle/upper fish ... but it also can not work out well. it really depends on the Betta's personality, and if it dosen't work out you need a backup plan to separate them... it's a risk and most people don't consider it.

As for the choices of fish, you have some that are not compatible for long living healthy fish.

Bettas prefer soft slightly acidic water, while live bearers require hard, basic water. They should not be mixed as one or the other will be outside of their comfort zone, and have a reduced life span. Both platties and endlers are live bearers.

And as I mentioned with loaches, they are schooling and get too large to be house in a 10 gallon with a betta. The smallest loaches is the Dwarf Loach which gets to 2.5 inches, and requires a minimum of 5. The other is the Banded Dwarf Loach which gets to 1.5, and again requires a minimum of 5. The Banded Dwarf Loach could be doable in a heavily planted tank with a Betta, but you would be pushing the bioload to the limit.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

SnowySurface said:


> I don't think Geomancer is saying you can't have bettas with loaches ever. Geomancer's saying you need a tank bigger than 10 gallons so the loaches can school properly. If the OP is getting a 5 or 10 gallon tank then the options for tank mates are very limited. I wouldn't start a community tank of schooling fish in anything smaller than 20 gallons. Even in that case it would be a school of one species of fish and one betta in the 20 gallon. :-?


I never said you can't have loaches ever. xD A 10 Gallon isn't as limited as you think, rasboras, cories, ember tetras, are all good options. Sorry if it came across like I was saying to keep them all at once. :/ 



Geomancer said:


> Eh... I wouldn't for a couple reasons.
> 
> Yes, a Betta can be okay with middle/upper fish ... but it also can not work out well. it really depends on the Betta's personality, and if it dosen't work out you need a backup plan to separate them... it's a risk and most people don't consider it.
> 
> ...


 I must be wrong, then. I thought Bombalurina had endler's with her sorority?


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## pasoindy (Feb 19, 2012)

I have an Edge tank. My Betta is very happy in it. I just turn the flow down as low as it will go and don't fill it all the way up to the top. I think it's a beautiful tank although it has some downsides. It's not easy to rearrange or plant because of the size on the access hole. That is the main problem I have with it. It's also not easy to clean the inside glass.
It has a nice filter (basically a rebadged AquaClear 20) and a decent if not small LED light arm. Unfortunately, the light is focused at the middle of the tank and the sides stay darker. I'm still having good luck propagating my plants though. I did just put a larger Marineland light kit on top of it until I can find something more aesthetically pleasing.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have found many owners who have 1-30 gallons for their bettas... And I am one of them :lol: You will always have different opinions, of course  But the best set up to me for a minimum, is:

3 gallon
heater
baffled flter or a filter you can adjust 
rocks/gravel and soft plants (soft plastic, live, fabric, gel) and ornaments
water conditioner
pellets (or flakes, but pellets have more nutrition  )
bucket and gravel siphon

I had gotten a "goldfish starter kit" which was almost 4 gallons, it came with an adjustable filter and all you needed was pellets (unless you prefer flakes) and a heater. Adjustable heaters are so much better... I have Jager and Top Fin for adjustable, and I have heard Marineland is great too.

Word of advice... I started out small and worked my way up. To save money (space and time too) start with something bigger. Bigger is better  lol. Sororities are not easy (and I know x.x) but is possible with stuffing a good sized tank with plants. If you found a long tank (not tall or regular) it is easier.. And especially for sororities bigger IS better.


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## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

Trial and error. Take all the conflicting information and work to your schedule and surroundings, cause in the end you will devise your own. In summary, only one rule of thumb when it comes to successful Betta keeping...Water Quality


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Keeping fish outside their comfort zone won't be instantly detrimental, it is a long term health consideration, and tank bred fish can sometimes adapt to wider ranges then their wild caught counter parts. A Betta might do fine in a pH of 7.2-7.4 with medium hard water. Upper extreme for the Betta, lower extreme for the live bearers.

It's always difficult to know if the fish we get in a pet store is tank bred or wild caught, and the employees are not likely to know as they just buy all their fish from a distributor.

Generally it is advisable to not mix acidic and basic fish together, but if your pH is in the low 7's and you don't have excessively hard water it can be workable. Live bearers really do prefer hard water though.

If you haven't already I suggest reading the fish profiles here, blue bar at the top, second link. Lots of good information in there for several species. Tropical Fish Profiles


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

agreed Scoot :lol: that includes tap water conditioner. At least being on here vs yahooanswers, you get opinions not "or else"'s. you also get to learn your betta(s) :3 some don't like certain things, some do. which is why the "this is how it SHOULD be and NOTHING ELSE" rules don't work.


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## scootshoot (Oct 11, 2010)

Sena Hansler said:


> some don't like certain things, some do. which is why the "this is how it SHOULD be and NOTHING ELSE" rules don't work.


Dead on. Like any subject, you can read til your eyes turn red but nothing is gonna beat hands on. Even the most avid fish hobbyist or breeder on this forum and across the globe have lost fish to a premature death due to some fault of their own. Learn from your mistakes, figure out what you did wrong and move on. ;-)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

^ +1 ;-)


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

i don't think geo was trying to say don't do it in general but to me not to because i'm a noob and was trying to limit my frustration :lol: which i appreciate. 
So if i got a tank in which a divider could be used is it mean to put them together in a tank? I mean I know they would have sufficient room but as you guys have told me they can't stay together without one is it going to be some aggressive always on edge thing for the fish? I have guinea pigs and they get moody when they are in the same room because they can hear each other and don't like knowing the other ones are near (i have 2 sets of two so don't worry they aren't lonely). I want my fish to be happy more then i want everything to look awesome, function for me and the the fish comes first cause if its a pain in the butt i won't like it as much anways. ;-)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, for me I have to find the "match" for the divided tank. Betta fish give off pheromones, which allows other fish to know "they are there". El Dorado had that problem. I could put say... Jekyll and....Juniper together but everyone else would try their hardest to find out where the other betta was and kill it o.o

trial and error  try putting tons of hidey holes and plants in the tank, covering the divider so they cannot see each other. It may work or it may not work... never know until you try  each betta is different so I cannot tell you whether or not it is "cruel". It'd be bad if I left El Dorado with Riddle, since he never liked seeing other bettas.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

would getting the divider and bettas at the same time possibly be better if i went that route? then neither of them would view the tank automatically as "theirs" and possibly just be happy because they have all kinds of space now? or is that a fools dream?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Actually you are half right. Adding them both in at the same time, will help. If for instance you had one in the 10, then divided, then added, you could cause more stress on them which would be bad. Still recommend some cover for the boys  it'll help in the long run. I have some who just fight and fight no matter what. Even if they cannot reach what they wanna fight.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

ok. so as far as buying some to try for a match is there anything specific to look for in their characteristics? if i get from a pet store they are in those plastic little cups so i don't know how much i`d be able to tell about whether they are very dominant (i mean obviously they are to a large extent or there wouldn't be a problem with having a few together, which there is). I went to see what tanks were in the store and noticed they have baby bettas. would that be much harder to do? do you keep them in smaller bowls? or is that just not recommended for a beginner? i assume they mostly are kept int hose little cups for a looong time or die early because the average person you buys a betta gets it for display now and they aren't very showy that young. i feel bad for the fishies :-? If i did get two and try the divided tank and it didn`t work well what do people normally do with the for lack of a better term "extra" fish? I don't think i have room for 2 larger tanks. seems sort of mean to go u didn`t get along so now u are stuck with this tank (and i would pick the more vicious one for the smaller tank cause they were the "mean" one). hmm... probably do more research on that before i consider it more.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

if i'm doing a tank its gonna get the special treatment lots of goodies. no worries there. ;-)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Baby bettas can come with numerous health problems including a depleted immune system caused from being in those small cups at their young and mostly unknown ages. I won't recommend a baby betta, as you won't know the gender for sure of the baby, and they could have problems. Baby bettas might "fit" in a smaller bowl because of size, but as my females have shown the larger the tank the more space they have to grow without deformities or illnesses trailing them.

As for trial and error... Even if you could get a 3 gallon with a small heater, as a "just in case they do not get along". That is what I have, and do if they cause more problems in a divided tank than I want.


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## daniomania (Feb 12, 2012)

i say they need a filter to just clea nthe tank. Aquatic plants lower hramful bacteria but casue debries if not looked after properly. in general, i say a bowl is ok but id at leats put in a 1 gallon tank. Thet otal cost set up, if you get the tank, it may come with a heater and filter, about 40.00 maximum. you'd probably get..
1)tank with heater & filter(possibly)
2) plants.. plastic or fake 
3) gravel

kijiji sells ton sof aquariums with all thesee stuff although 5 gallon is normally what is found


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

Obviously the larger the tank the better, so 10g would be optimal, but with a 6g with live plants the quality of water would be better (everything else required as well obviously) so do you think they would be about as happy or do you think this would stunt them? and how much difference would there be in cleaning requirements? (possibly 8g) I'm leaning towards not dividing but still not sure about which size i want so i want to weigh the difference in cleaning for a 6g vs 10g. typically i like petco for animal supplies, in our town it treats their animals way better then other places... i'm sure you know which i am talking about. but i haven't really compared them for fish treatment, although they don't stack the bettas on top of each other so they can breathe so thats good. i have seen the other ones do that. good to know about babies being hard to tell about how they are doing. sad but would rather know then get attached to find out it is not healthy. i forgot to bring my plant book with me to read which i was planning on doing today. :doh!: so i guess those questions will have to wait a bit. :-? i'm still sorting out between a biOrb, Fuval, or standard tank design wise... the Fuvals seem to have good lighting if i was to concentrate plant growth to the middle of the tank, as i read the light is focused there. there weren't any biOrbs at the petco so i couldn't really ask anything about them so will probably look at reviews and such online. I like LEDs so if what i get doesn't have them i will probably make sure it can be altered to use them. I use them for my orchids and houseplants.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

As far as cleaning goes, there isn't much difference. A 6g is large enough to hold a cycle, the only difference is smaller volume = larger percentage change each week. In terms of actual gallons of water that comes out to be though, pretty much the same.

Your only possible tank mates would be reduced to invertebrates, and depending on the betta they may eat shrimp


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

i can't blame them for eating the shrimp, shrimp are tasty. ;-) still considering a larger tank maybe even a 12g the fluval comes in 6g or 12g and the difference is the height which is easier to manage then it being wider. but it does look like with the higher one the light actually reaches more of the tank too. :-D


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

... of course that may directly affect the brightness of the light that the plants recieve since it is also farther away from the light source. but i'm not sure by how much or if it has brighter lights... haven't got that far.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I must be wrong, then. I thought Bombalurina had endler's with her sorority?


 


Geomancer said:


> Keeping fish outside their comfort zone won't be instantly detrimental, it is a long term health consideration, and tank bred fish can sometimes adapt to wider ranges then their wild caught counter parts. A Betta might do fine in a pH of 7.2-7.4 with medium hard water. Upper extreme for the Betta, lower extreme for the live bearers.
> 
> It's always difficult to know if the fish we get in a pet store is tank bred or wild caught, and the employees are not likely to know as they just buy all their fish from a distributor.
> 
> ...


I just want to weigh in on this, since I agree with both of you. 

I do have Endlers and bettas together, in a pH of 7 with, unfortunately, soft water (I think. I don't have a test kit - I'm relying on the local water authorities). My Endlers, however, are happy and healthy, as they were locally bred (as were many generations before them) in the same sort of water as I use. Despite the softness, I don't like using conditioning salts as I don't like risking chemical fluctuations. They have adjusted well to my water and are showing vibrant health and colour. I realise this isn't yet an indication of how they will go long-term, but the guy who bred them (a long-standing member of our local aquarium society) has had no long-term troubles with their ancestors. 

HOWEVER, I wouldn't be so certain if I was using imported fish from a petshop. In terms of temperature range and temperament, I find Endlers an excellent tank mate for bettas, but I advise them not knowing what the water conditions of the person asking about tankmates are. I (probably foolishly) assume that people know their water conditions and will get appropriate tankmates. 
However, I have found that most basic tropical community fish are very adaptable when it comes to things like pH and water hardness. Obviously, I wouldn't be so blasé with cichlids or something, which do need very specific water chemistry, but the average tropical fish does well in our water.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

well there are no water conditions yet as i have yet to actually get a tank  I want to know what i need to know extensively before I get in over my head. Where would be a good place in the us to look for betta if i wanted one not from a pet store?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Sandrilene said:


> well there are no water conditions yet as i have yet to actually get a tank  I want to know what i need to know extensively before I get in over my head. Where would be a good place in the us to look for betta if i wanted one not from a pet store?


You can look on Aquabid, but prepare to pay an arm and a leg. It's similar to the difference of getting a free mixed breed puppy or kitten, or going out and paying $300-$1000 for a pure breed  Also try your local classifieds/craigslist. Maybe you'll have a breeder in your area.


As far as water conditions go, you can find out your water hardness (GH) and Alkalinity (KH) right now from your tap water. It will not change in the aquarium. You can also get pH, but that's a little more tricky long term. Leave water sitting out for 24 hours before testing pH, and depending on your KH you may see it slightly lower in the aquarium over time (not continuously, just a fixed small drop).


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Depending where you live, you might have a fish store near you willing to ship...be warned, for me it's 50.00 for shipping plus the fish (3.00-30.00), and it isn't all that far away.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Sandrilene said:


> well there are no water conditions yet as i have yet to actually get a tank  I want to know what i need to know extensively before I get in over my head. Where would be a good place in the us to look for betta if i wanted one not from a pet store?


If you don't want to pay out for a breeder, consider 'rescuing' a betta from poor conditions on Craigslist or something. You might see an add saying "Selling betta tank (one quart) with betta" or something.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I personally rescue bettas :3 people loved hearing about what happened, and what issues they had, and what do they love the most? A healthy, colorful, active betta who isn't moping in decay in a cup of blue water. I don't know if you do, but some rescues are home-rescues for reptiles and fish (or just fish), who are barely known. Look hard enough you can find them!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Sena Hansler said:


> I personally rescue bettas :3 people loved hearing about what happened, and what issues they had.


Suddenly, Münchausen syndrome


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Meaning? (and yes I know what Münchausen disease is it just doesn't make sense). Do you man I tend to fake what really happened to the bettas? Because I don't... I just tell them the truth: where they came from, what happened, what I did, etc.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

I have been checking craigslist actually. So far I haven`t seen a single betta up there (which is a good thing I guess). Is there much difference in lifespan if you were to get a betta from a breeder opposed to the store assuming both fish are healthy?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes and no.. I mean I got a pet store betta (a few) that lived a good few years or more. Some people think bettas are only supposed to live to a year, others think 7 years minimum (ha good luck...) Although lifespan can rely on their genetics, it also depends on other factors such as the fish itself, environmental conditions, diet, etc. However, in my case, if I ever get a blue betta it has to be somewhere else because I have a 50/50 the blue ones from here will die, whereas I got a blue gal in the city, and she is very very healthy and active. All depends


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

So... guess who got a betta? Was in the pet store to get guinea pig supplies and I happened to walk past the bettas there was one I though was very pretty so I got him. Conditioned the water and let it sit. Does that mean its ready for him or am i forgetting to do something? I know i have to acclimate him to the temperature and add a little to the bowl for a bit so he can get use to it but other then that? Right now he just has a 3 gallon tank. He is very much wanting out of his tiny bowl but I want to make sure I didn't forget something as i feel like i have. besides testing and conditioning and letting it sit is there anything left to do before i can put him in?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I think you're good to go 
Just acclimate him for around 20 minutes first.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

more stupid questions. :-? If you get a higher wattage for the heater is it going to cost more to run then one with less wattage? Do programmable ones work like central air and keep it at the steady temperature? If that is the case then they should cost the same to run? Between the standard tanks and ones with LED lighting is there much difference in cost to run the lights? I plan on setting up with plants when I get the tank I want so I will need lights. Just curious on costs so I don't buy something and find out it doesn`t work for me.


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## Sandrilene (May 21, 2011)

I decided to go with a more standard 5gallon tank. So far he seems excited been checking stuff out seems to looove all the space. He HATED the little cup he was in in the store. Seems to be enjoying himself. Thought I would update you all and thank you for the help.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

have fun with your betta 

also, do not worry about heater wattage, tanks filters, etc in means of cost. My electricity in a fourplex is only 40 dollars. And that is monthly - including when I make my tea with an ancient electric kettle, vacuuming the guinea pig room, if anyone uses a blow dryer, straightener, or curler, plus my heater which is 1500 watt or something, plus watching movies, using the computer, charging so many things.... :lol: all in all, owning fish barely makes a dent, and I have....6 tanks. with filters.


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