# Question on leaving the Male with the fry?



## GhostFeather

If you leave the Male to raise the fry,should you feed him when the fry are free swimming?
I am interested in giving this a try with my Plakats that are free swimming as of today.
Thanks
Bill


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## MattsBettas

Check out these experiments- http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=809 and http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=839


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## LadyVictorian

Wow that is an amazing experiment. I would LOVE to know how your fry turn out after leaving them with dad. I wonder if sisters raised like this once removed from all males would coexist better in a sorority vs's females raised together without a father. That might be an interesting experiment later on though it seems dad is the one keeping the peace with his spawn.

It makes sense to me though, in the wild I can't imagine a male would ditch his kids right after they start free swimming. Survival wise most of them would be killed and maybe if lucky one or two would possibly make it. Seems more likely a male would protect them until they were large enough to hopefully protect themselves and go off in the scary world.


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## GhostFeather

Thanks Matt,
That was an interesting read!
I think I am going to give it a try with this brood.
I will keep everyone posted.
Bill


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## indjo

IME there are good fathers, so so, and bad fathers (egg/fry eaters). The first 2 can be left with fry long term. In fact male type1 will feed his fry - he will eat, then vigorously flap his pectorals to call his fry. Then he either releases food debris and or mouth fry.

Male type 2 usually doesn't feed fry but will not eat them. He will totally ignore and let them fend for themselves. Both of these types can be left with fry until fry are adults. IMO, if you have these types of males, it is best to keep him with fry, at least for the first month or so. This condition will produce more "good daddies" amongst the fry. Besides the first type of male sometimes stresses to death if removed.

Not much to be said for psychotic egg/fry eaters except artificially hatch eggs.


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## Myates

How would you know what type you have without risking the fry? I suppose if you watch very carefully, but I'd be terrified to leave them at night personally.


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## GhostFeather

So far-so good!
This is his 2nd day with them free swimming.
He swims around,stops and looks at them,then swims off and looks at others.
I fed him a little last night,he really enjoyed it,fed him a few white worms just now.
He was setting on the bottom just watching the fry swim around him.
This is his 2nd spawn,he was real good with the eggs and newly hatched fry,that is what got me wanting to try this.
I will have to watch him when I feed him again latter and see if he calls his fry and feeds them.
Bill


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## Option

GhostFeather said:


> So far-so good!
> This is his 2nd day with them free swimming.
> He swims around,stops and looks at them,then swims off and looks at others.
> I fed him a little last night,he really enjoyed it,fed him a few white worms just now.
> He was setting on the bottom just watching the fry swim around him.
> This is his 2nd spawn,he was real good with the eggs and newly hatched fry,that is what got me wanting to try this.
> I will have to watch him when I feed him again latter and see if he calls his fry and feeds them.
> Bill


Nice, congrats! I'm really hoping to be able to leave my male in on my next spawn as well. What are you feeding the father during this time?

And how big if your spawn tank? I'm wondering if a bigger spawn tank will suppress his hunger instinct by now crowding him as much.


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## GhostFeather

It is a 10G. with about 5 inches of water,Java Moss and the cup for his nest.
I feed him White Worms,Fruit Fly Maggots,I will be putting some BBS in a little later.
I fed the fry some Bananna Worms and Vinegar Eels yesterday and today.
I have Chemical test kits to check the water specs.


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## Oldfishlady

indjo said:


> IME there are good fathers, so so, and bad fathers (egg/fry eaters). The first 2 can be left with fry long term. In fact male type1 will feed his fry - he will eat, then vigorously flap his pectorals to call his fry. Then he either releases food debris and or mouth fry.
> 
> Male type 2 usually doesn't feed fry but will not eat them. He will totally ignore and let them fend for themselves. Both of these types can be left with fry until fry are adults. IMO, if you have these types of males, it is best to keep him with fry, at least for the first month or so. This condition will produce more "good daddies" amongst the fry. Besides the first type of male sometimes stresses to death if removed.
> 
> Not much to be said for psychotic egg/fry eaters except artificially hatch eggs.


This has been my experience as well.....

But I have gone one step further with experiments in the house, as well as how I spawn outside in the warmer months. 
That is, leaving the female too and with some I will use trios (1male/2females)

I use a more natural method to spawn in the house-Using 10gal soil based-heavy planted tank-full to the top with water and have kept the male with his offspring long term-all while he is tending a new nest of eggs when I keep the female in the tank with him. Neither male or female ate the fry, however, the older/bigger fry did eat some of the younger/smaller fry.

Often you will have a more successful sorority when you start out with related females that have never been separated.


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## louisvillelady

I read that article years ago, and took the practice of leaving the male in with the fry. While it is true that there are instances of "bad fathers", I sometimes wonder how many times this is once again our misinterpretation of what is truly going on. I have one example. I had a beautiful Double ray platinum male. Simply gorgeous! I mated him with another platinum female, and he ate the eggs. I blamed it on him being young and inexperienced. I tried him again. Again, he ate the eggs. So I wondered if maybe there was something wrong with the eggs, so bought another female. Spawned them, he ate the eggs! DANG! such a beautiful fish, and he is an egg eater! about six months go by, and at a fish club meeting, while talking about this, I happen to find out the two females were actually cousins. On a hunch, I bought another female, and had total success! I even left him in with the fry. So sometimes when we "think" their is something wrong, what is really "wrong" is our interpretation of the animals behavior. I loved Halo, may he rip. He taught me soo much and was one of my best fathers.


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## GhostFeather

Maybe this shoud be moved to the spawn logs,actually started out as a question,just want to keep anyone interested,the progress of this.
I just turned out the lights,he is still just swimming around checking out the fry.
I feed them all a few hours ago,did not really notice anything out of the ordinary.
The Amonnia level is still around 0,since I am feeding him a couple of times a day,I will check it each day.
Hope atb some point I can put up some pics,right now they are still small and the tank is kinda dark from the tannins.
Bill


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## Sena Hansler

I have had two males in any of my spawns who could have been left in with the fry. VERY good fathers! Others were so-so, and I seem to get the rotten pick of bad fathers... Though recently it has turned around.


> So sometimes when we "think" their is something wrong, what is really "wrong" is our interpretation of the animals behavior.


It's true. I used the same female to teach all my males, and they all ate the eggs. She was a dud - as is my cambodian. Which I will make double sure by checking with another male and her. The fry die or the father eats the eggs... She is a definite dud. 

Really to be able to try, you have to learn through trial and error. Allowing enough coverage for fry to hide is essential as well, in case he is a rotten daddy.


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## indjo

Myates said:


> How would you know what type you have without risking the fry? I suppose if you watch very carefully, but I'd be terrified to leave them at night personally.


There is really no way of knowing until we see the male's behavior. But if he doesn't eat the eggs and you have lots of free swimming fry, it should be safe to think of him as a good father. Usually bad fathers will eat eggs before they hatch or fry before they become free swimming, but occasionally they do eat fry after all that.



> I read that article years ago, and took the practice of leaving the male in with the fry. While it is true that there are instances of "bad fathers", I sometimes wonder how many times this is once again our misinterpretation of what is truly going on. I have one example. I had a beautiful Double ray platinum male. Simply gorgeous! I mated him with another platinum female, and he ate the eggs. I blamed it on him being young and inexperienced. I tried him again. Again, he ate the eggs. So I wondered if maybe there was something wrong with the eggs, so bought another female. Spawned them, he ate the eggs! DANG! such a beautiful fish, and he is an egg eater! about six months go by, and at a fish club meeting, while talking about this, I happen to find out the two females were actually cousins. On a hunch, I bought another female, and had total success! I even left him in with the fry. So sometimes when we "think" their is something wrong, what is really "wrong" is our interpretation of the animals behavior. I loved Halo, may he rip. He taught me soo much and was one of my best fathers.


Sometimes they need a long rest before the next spawn to change behavior. Not sure why though - maybe it has something to do with maturity. I often give my males few chances (1-2 months interval) to prove himself before I either artificially hatch the eggs or retire him.

Congrats Bill. Hope he turns out to be a really good father.
I'll move this thread for you.


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## MSG

*Proper conditioning would definitely increase the chances of success*

Having the appropriate live plant cover for the fry & having an abundance of available live foods would make all the difference.

I don't have enough time to watch/feed 2x-3x a day in a small spawning tank. 

As long as big daddy betta is well fed, plenty of space & cover for the fry to hide & it should work. I always find it hard to determine how to feed EXTRA active bettas. I want to reward them for more activity, but I know it's not good to overfeed.


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## Option

Now the only question is (and I'm also very curious)....how many days can the father be safely left with the fry after hatching???

I'm really dying to try this on my next spawn.


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## Sena Hansler

I have seen some very experienced people on here have some fathers in with the fry until the fry begin to challenge each other.


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## LittleBettaFish

I think some fish are naturally great fathers. I have had a few egg eaters, but as they don't do it compulsively, I am inclined to think they do it either because the eggs are bad, or the conditions are not conductive to rearing fry (they might feel threatened by too much movement outside the tank for example). 

Some of my fathers have only been great at the egg/newly hatched fry tending phase and tend to lose interest or eat their fry, once they become free-swimming. Whereas, other dads have been very fastidious in tending the nest and then rearing the fry. Usually the dad will completely ignore his fry once they are around a week old, and then not pay much attention to them until they become big enough to be noticeable. 

I have one excellent father here who has given me around 30 odd fry from various spawnings (yes he is a wild betta not a splendens). I moved him and his female into their own separate tank away from their adult offspring as I wanted them to spawn. After that, their adult offspring became incredibly shy and withdrawn to the point of me not being able to see them. Up until then, these fish had lived with their parents maybe for a year or so. 

So I moved the parents back in yesterday afternoon and now I see all of them a lot more out and about and in full colour. I swear they must remember each other, as dad and mum were always the alpha pair in that tank. 

I think with a lot of people the risk of leaving the father in with the eggs outweighs any possible benefits. Getting a successful spawn can be hard and physically challenging on fish, so most don't want to have to attempt another if they can get it right the first time. 

Also I always offer my male food during the entire process. Most of the time they may snatch a bite here or there but they don't settle back down into a routine of regularly eating until the fry are free-swimming. I also feed live blackworms so they are able to live in the substrate for a longer time.


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## Maddybelle

I left my orange HM boy in with the fry until they were 3 weeks old. He got freaked out by the new shrimp I added to help clean up, and became aggressive towards everything in the tank. Their mother is a very calm, tolerant girl, so she went into the growout with the fry (and about 3-4 generations of guppies) at 6 weeks. The babies are now 12 weeks old, about 30 are jarred, and mom is very happy!


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## GhostFeather

It is 2 days with the male in with the fry,and everything is going fine.
It is really cool to see him with about a dozen fry swimming around him!
He does not seem to mind them and they don't mind him.
He just swims around the whole tank and stops every once in awhile to check them out.
I feed him a couple of times a day,he eats,then goes back to checking them out.
The amonnia level was at .25 today so I did a 50% water change and dripped in about 4 more gallons of water then what was in there to begin with,took it from 3 gallons to about 7 gallons all together.
I thought my using my syphon might stress him out a little and maybe cause him to eat the fry,I checked a couple of hours latter and everything is fine.
I am off Thursday,so I might try for a few pics,not sure how bwell they will work,but I will try,at least get a pic of him.
Bill


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## indjo

Option said:


> Now the only question is (and I'm also very curious)....how many days can the father be safely left with the fry after hatching???


Good fathers can be left with fry until they're adults. Often a female offspring will breed with father. I avoid this by using water pumps, giving them currents and or over stocking.

Leaving male with fry really depends on your goals. If you want to breed him again, it's best to take him out after a month or two so he can be reconditioned. Or maybe you want to maintain his fin form - need to exercise him. It's best to immediately remove him after fry are free swimming. . . . and so on


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## GhostFeather

I will probably only leave him with them for about a month,then take him out.
I have plenty of other males to breed,I like this guys fins,so I will breed him again after awhile and try to improve them in future spawns.
Bill


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## GhostFeather

2 more days have gone by and he is still doing a great job!
When I did my water change today,I noticed that he had built a new nest-it was on the heater cord where it enters the water.
Funny thing-it was bigger than his original nest.
I think I could leave him in untill they are adults,he just keeps swimming all over checking them out,
When I fed him today,ther were 4 fry swimming all around him.
I am not sure at this time how many fry are in the tank,I know at least 2 dozen,I found out that there are always more then what you first think.
I do know it was a small breeding,the females first time at 4 months.
Bill


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## BettAsha

LadyVictorian said:


> Wow that is an amazing experiment. I would LOVE to know how your fry turn out after leaving them with dad. I wonder if sisters raised like this once removed from all males would coexist better in a sorority vs's females raised together without a father. That might be an interesting experiment later on though it seems dad is the one keeping the peace with his spawn.
> 
> It makes sense to me though, in the wild I can't imagine a male would ditch his kids right after they start free swimming. Survival wise most of them would be killed and maybe if lucky one or two would possibly make it. Seems more likely a male would protect them until they were large enough to hopefully protect themselves and go off in the scary world.


I am also curious about leaving the male with the fry. It always seemed to strange to me to remove the father once the fry were free swimming. I think I might try this myself. This might be beneficial because the father might do some culling himself because I'm sure they can since problems earlier than we can. These are all just my thought and theories in no way am I experienced with this sort of thing.


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## Sena Hansler

Finding a good father can be difficult... Once you find him, use him to his full potential!! :lol: Ares could be left in with his fry, if I were to spawn him one more time.


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## GhostFeather

I checked yesterday eveing and today,I can't find any fry.
Not positive,but I think he ate them.
On a side note,he seemed to be doing good as long as he was building bubble nests,when he quit making them(yesterday),it seems like he started eating them.
Don't know if there is a corilation there or not.
I will keep looking,but I doubt if there are any left,not giving up!
I moved him back into his tank today.
Bill


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## Maddybelle

Did he look bloated, like he ate too much at the Fry Buffet? Did you have any cover in the spawn tank (plants, spawn mop, etc?) I stuffed my tub full of every plant, real and fake, that I had lying around, and it definitely helped, IMO. Maybe you can try again. =(


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## MrVampire181

I left a father with his fry for a week. They grew faster, and I only had two runts. I think the father can cull and take care of them during that time better than we humans can. I just made sure to gently change a few quarts of water that week before I started my regular 50% water changes.


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## GhostFeather

He did not seem bloated,it as a small spawn(her first) might of had a couple dozen to begin with,
I cleaned the tank today,pulled the plants and swished the plants gently in a clear plastic shoebox-no fry.
Checked the breeding tank,no fry.
The first 4 days he kept building bubble nest and he was very good with the fry,when he stopped building the nests is when he must have started eating them.
It as a cool experience,just sad I lost the fry,I might try again sometime.
My breeding tanks are 10 gallon tanks with java moss,the usual set up.
This time though,I kept the Java Moss in 2 Cherry Tomatoe containers(the plastic type)to make cleaning the bottom of the tank easier.
Bill


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## Option

Sorry to hear you lost the fry. But this thread has been very educational for me. I definitely want to try leaving-father-in on my upcoming spawn. So as a recap: after the eggs hatched how many days total did you leave the father in before you noticed he had eaten the fry?


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## Sena Hansler

I had a couple males who I left with the fry after they were free swimming for a couple days, with no problem. However since they were long finned, I was seeing they become very exhausted, especially the one who kept trying to round his children up back under the nest :lol:


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## GhostFeather

He was in there 7 days.
The first 4-5 days he built bubble nests every day,the nests would break up after I syphoned some water from the tank and he would rebuild them.
Day 6 I noticed I did not see very many fry swimming around,the 7th day I did not see any.
I do not know if him stopping building nests had anything to do with it,maybe he built the nests thinking he had to put them back in??
I will try again(with the same male)latter and see if things work out.
Bill


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## Sena Hansler

Especially if it were his first time :3 More experience is definitely better.


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## MSG

*Thinking of removing the 3 month semi crazy betta daddy.*

He's just way too paranoid even with a jungle like live plants scattered all over the tank. From time to time I would observe him freak out & start swimming around the tank at high bursts of speed. 

He's not scratching himself or anything. It could be due to his little runt sibling he's constantly trying to get at that's floating in a plastic insert inside the 12 day fry tank. 


I've also seen him signal to the fry, the ones closest swam over. He proceeds to eat a few. Then immediately swims off @ high speed to do several laps around the tank. 


When he returns, mouth opens up 4 tiny fry emerge, all dazed & confused for 1-2 minutes. 


I've also seen 3 month old ram the babies @ high speeds like a "raging bull" with parts of his body.

I'm still new to this, but I'm pretty sure that's not good for the little underdeveloped organs.

The other reason I think he's somewhat frantic/crazy is his fins resemble a unprepared mother with a newborn. You know hair all disheveled/clothes all messy because the newborn baby is driving her crazy through lack of sleep, constant feedings/changing/etc....

Father should be a superdelta juvie, but fins resemble a crowntail due to all his extra activity.


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## Sena Hansler

Hahah Maine did that. Patrolled the tank like a madman, snatched up his fry, dragged them back to the nest and released them (and they were all dazed and confused) then they'd dart away, and he'd bring them back... :lol: hard beig a dad of 100+. Don't blame the dishevelled look ;p


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## lookimawave

I read that males will cull more or less depending on the amount of space available. So is there any reason why I can't use a 50 gal (the growout tank) as a spawning tank? Then I'll just slowly increase the water line.


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## hrutan

This is a thread from 2013. You should make a new post in the breeding section. Although, to answer your question - no, there's no reason you can't, but the pair may take a very very long time to breed with all that space.


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## lookimawave

thanks! (now I don't need to make a new post ) I might use a divider during mating and then remove it


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## Ganggreenkhan

lookimawave said:


> I read that males will cull more or less depending on the amount of space available. So is there any reason why I can't use a 50 gal (the growout tank) as a spawning tank? Then I'll just slowly increase the water line.



The way I did this was to put the ten gallon in the 55 gallon and fill it up over the top of the ten when it was time to move the fry. Makes it alittle hard to work in the tank if your stand is to high.


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