# Peas or no Peas



## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

That is the question...

So my boy has SBD and I have tried everything to fix it. I hear so many people say no to the peas and some people say yes and it works like a charm. 

the reason why I brought this up is from the comments I got from this picture below of Sardine on DA: What do you think I should do? He seems to be acting normal, he just gets bloated at times. =/

http://treekami.deviantart.com/art/Sardine-424749138 

thanks for the help. <3


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

So many people are all peas peas peas! out there, I would think a one time deal would be ok if other things weren't working. My guess is, it's the ones who feed their betta peas often that can cause harmful effects, or it wouldn't be so popular. Once would probably be ok, if you already tried daphnia, which is what everyone here reccomends.
Edit though... really, if he's only like that sometimes and slims down between, I wouldn't care. Remy gets that much of a tummy sometimes, and I never considered it bloat, I just didn't feed him til it went down (always the next day) if he still has the SBD the times it goes down.. well, probably someone knows more than me, lol


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Peas aren't natural and people claim the fibre can damage the digestive tract- makes sense to me, bettas are insectivores by nature and don't naturally eat vegetables. 

I would try epsom salt baths before peas.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

Betta Nut said:


> So many people are all peas peas peas! out there, I would think a one time deal would be ok if other things weren't working. My guess is, it's the ones who feed their betta peas often that can cause harmful effects, or it wouldn't be so popular. Once would probably be ok, if you already tried daphnia, which is what everyone here reccomends.
> Edit though... really, if he's only like that sometimes and slims down between, I wouldn't care. Remy gets that much of a tummy sometimes, and I never considered it bloat, I just didn't feed him til it went down (always the next day) if he still has the SBD the times it goes down.. well, probably someone knows more than me, lol



Thanks so much for the advice. <3 And yeah I have tried daphnia and epsom salt and nothing seems to work for him. He gets bloated time to time and I only feed him one pellet in the morning and one in the evening and fast him on Mondays. I will wait to see what others will say before I end up doing this pea idea. though if none of the things worked, I'm sure this will not work as well. LOL


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Yeah, not a fan of the pea thing. The idea is, in the case of intestinal blockage, the roughage of a skinned, cooked pea will move the block and this results in happy fish poop time. I think as a one time deal it -might- help for a specific type of blockage. Maybe. And yeah, daphnia's probably a better call.

But in all my experience and research, "constipation" is half a myth. It seems to me bloat's usually caused by overfeeding (don't feed too much, quit feeding for a few days) or bacterial infection (use some meds).

Oops I see you do feed him small amounts. Have you had him long? Has he -always- been like this? Have you tried him on live foods at all? Has he had any antibiotic treatments for the SBD?


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

MattsBettas said:


> Peas aren't natural and people claim the fibre can damage the digestive tract- makes sense to me, bettas are insectivores by nature and don't naturally eat vegetables.
> 
> I would try epsom salt baths before peas.



agreed with the pea, though I have tried epsom salt baths and it's not working, would the salt be bad for snails and live plants if I added it in his regular tank?


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

Aus said:


> Oops I see you do feed him small amounts. Have you had him long? Has he -always- been like this? Have you tried him on live foods at all? Has he had any antibiotic treatments for the SBD?



Hahaha that's ok XD yeah he was like this the moment I adopted him. he wasn't as bad but I always wondered why his belly was larger than the other bettas I've had. I give him bloodworms and daphnia but they are freeze dried, which I heard that is bad for them as well? His normal food is Omega one betta Pellets.

I have given him a epsom salt baths, used meds for bloating, and tried to fast him for at least 4 days. It works for for a while but then he just gets bloated again. The only thing that helps him poop is to have him flare at the mirror and at my finger. XD


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I've had two bettas that were purchased with chronic health conditions, and no matter what I threw at the problems, they never went away. 

It gets to the point where it's stressful for both you -and- the fish. If you've tried meds, tried this and that, and he's still a bit bloaty now and then it could be an old internal injury to his organs putting pressure on his swim bladder, or something, and absolutely nothing will help but wise management. 

So maybe, the best -quality- food you can possibly buy (so less is more, ha, and at least he's getting good nutrition) and regular flarings is the way to go? If that keeps him as healthy as he's going to get, then I'd do that and relax, knowing I have done my best to help.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

Aus said:


> I've had two bettas that were purchased with chronic health conditions, and no matter what I threw at the problems, they never went away.
> 
> It gets to the point where it's stressful for both you -and- the fish. If you've tried meds, tried this and that, and he's still a bit bloaty now and then it could be an old internal injury to his organs putting pressure on his swim bladder, or something, and absolutely nothing will help but wise management.
> 
> So maybe, the best -quality- food you can possibly buy (so less is more, ha, and at least he's getting good nutrition) and regular flarings is the way to go? If that keeps him as healthy as he's going to get, then I'd do that and relax, knowing I have done my best to help.



<3 Thanks so much for this reply. This makes me feel so much better. The person is now saying that she is right and I am wrong about the pea and now she is saying NEVER use Epsom salt. I am not going to reply to her now with that comment so it is best to just drop it before it gets outta hand. But it does frustrate me on how people think they know best when they don't even know me or my fish. =/


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't agree with feeding peas, either. I prefer daphnia.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Tree said:


> <3 Thanks so much for this reply. This makes me feel so much better. The person is now saying that she is right and I am wrong about the pea and now she is saying NEVER use Epsom salt. I am not going to reply to her now with that comment so it is best to just drop it before it gets outta hand. But it does frustrate me on how people think they know best when they don't even know me or my fish. =/



Well. To be kind.. perhaps those are the things some folks swear by, and which work well for them.. The thing with these fish is, everywhere is different.. different temps, different water chemistry. What works for one person might not for the next. Plus, some folks are just curmudgeonly and set in their ways, I guess, right or wrong.. 

I've been told off for having a betta in 3 gallons, and told off for having one betta in 25 gallons... both fish were perfectly healthy and happy, but this didn't seem to matter, LOL. Can't win, with some!

Sometimes it's just better to step away from the puter, go outside and get some air... heh. There's always better things to do than argue with people past the point of making your point..


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

Aus said:


> Well. To be kind.. perhaps those are the things some folks swear by, and which work well for them.. The thing with these fish is, everywhere is different.. different temps, different water chemistry. What works for one person might not for the next. Plus, some folks are just curmudgeonly and set in their ways, I guess, right or wrong..
> 
> I've been told off for having a betta in 3 gallons, and told off for having one betta in 25 gallons... both fish were perfectly healthy and happy, but this didn't seem to matter, LOL. Can't win, with some!
> 
> Sometimes it's just better to step away from the puter, go outside and get some air... heh. There's always better things to do than argue with people past the point of making your point..


yeah, I just dropped the whole conversation and left it be. No need to start an argument. But it makes me feel that the person is saying that I have no idea what I am doing which I do, thanks to this website. I would never known the things I know now about fish/bettas. ^_^


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

My main issue, I think, with the "pea will cure all" mindset is that it's an attempt to treat the symptoms, not the cause. Many bloating/constipation issues are caused by bacteria and/or parasites.. and while I get that many people prefer 'natural' alternatives to antibiotics, I don't understand why anyone would not chuck disease-specific medications at a fish which clearly needs it. 

I feel a bit that way about salt, as well, which tends to be treated as a bit of a cure-all. I see it, in many cases, as a waste of valuable time, for really sick fish.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

aus I definitely agree.

Bloat and constipation is also often a product of feeding low quality and/or incorrect foods. Feeding high quality, easily digestible foods like NLS pellets will all but eliminate such issues, no matter how much you over feed.


Show tanks 125, 125, 90, 10, 5, 2.5
QTs 2x29, 2x20


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Aus said:


> My main issue, I think, with the "pea will cure all" mindset is that it's an attempt to treat the symptoms, not the cause. Many bloating/constipation issues are caused by bacteria and/or parasites.. and while I get that many people prefer 'natural' alternatives to antibiotics, I don't understand why anyone would not chuck disease-specific medications at a fish which clearly needs it.
> 
> I feel a bit that way about salt, as well, which tends to be treated as a bit of a cure-all. I see it, in many cases, as a waste of valuable time, for really sick fish.


One natural alternative to antibiotics is the use of probiotics for fish. They can kill off the bad bacteria and parasites by 1. out competing them for nutrients in the gut. 2. poisoning the pathogens with the lactic acid and hydrogen peroxide they produce. 3. Spark the fish immune system by improving T cell function and quality. This often reduces or eliminates the bloating and/or systemic organ failure. A nice extra feature is faster fish growth and development due in part to the improved nutrient uptake available from a proper gut function and less stress.

I read an interesting article today and want to pass on. This is why proper quarantine procedures are so very important. I suggest also giving all incoming fish from any source a dip in Paraguard or Meth Blue upon arrival.

_Fancy fish could harbor dangerous bacteria
by Rose Eveleth February 6, 2013 03:00am PST 



Around the world, private collectors and businesses maintain beautiful fish tanks stocked with colorful corals, speedy little cichlids and stately angelfish. But a hidden danger lurks: many fish that wind up in aquariums carry antibiotic-resistant bacteria that could pose a threat not just to a billion-dollar industry but to human health.

A recent study published in the Journal of Fish Diseases measured 32 different ornamental fish that entered the port in Portland, Ore., from places such as Colombia, Singapore and Florida. The specimens were found to carry 64 different bacterial colonies, and many were resistant to antibiotics to varying degrees. The bottom line: not only were the fish more susceptible to infection, but their bacteria harbored genes that could make them immune to drugs - genes they can pass along.

Resistance to antibiotics can develop in a number of ways, but the most common culprit is overtreatment, a practice commonly used when fish are transported.

The chain of events is pretty easy to follow. The majority of ornamental fish start their lives in Asia and other exotic locations and are shipped all across the globe. Those trips aren’t a walk in the park for the animals, says Luiz Bermudez, a microbiologist at Oregon State University, and one of the researchers on the study.

“It’s stressful even if we humans get in an airplane and fly for 14 hours,” he says, “so when a fish gets to a destination, many times the fish presents with a kind of stress-related disease.”

To prevent stocks from going belly-up before they reach their destination, many importers often proactively treat their catch with antibiotics. That, says Bermudez, is a big driver of the antibiotic resistance his team found in the study.

How antibiotic resistance spreads

It’s not just fish who might be in trouble, either. That’s because a resistant bacterial strain can pass its resistance to another species, Bermudez says.

So, in theory, an antibiotic-resistant fish bacteria could transfer the set of genes that confer that resistance to a bacteria that infects humans, Bermudez says. That means a human bacteria that was formerly felled by certain antibiotics would suddenly become immune to them.

Complicating matters is the fact that many antibiotics used to fight fish bacteria are the same ones widely used on humans. Among the antibiotics that the fish bacteria were best at warding off is Tetracycline, a drug used to treat everything from acne to rosacea to cholera in humans. Up to 77 percent of the studied specimens were resistant to this drug.

While it is unlikely that these bacteria will be transmitted from fish to humans, both fish owners and importers should be extra careful. “If you’re going to clean a fish tank, you should be aware that there is a possibility that you’re going to get some infection,” he says.

Aside from the health implications, antibiotic resistance could be a drain on the bottom line for aquarium suppliers. The global market for ornamental fish is worth an estimated $15 billion each year. The world spends $900 million a year alone on just the live fish - a figure that has grown an average of 14 percent each year for the past 25 years. Should certain fish become entirely resistant to the antibiotics that help them survive, the industry could suffer a huge economic blow totaling millions of dollars.

Bermudez says the ornamental fish industry isn’t deaf to the dangers of antibiotic resistance. It has already made some changes based on his team’s research - such as treating fish less frequently with antibiotics unless necessary and figuring out how to ship them more safely.

But the industry deals with 6,000-plus species of fish, shipping from more than 100 countries, and most countries have no specific regulations regarding antibiotic use. So while individual suppliers might do their part to cut back on antibiotics, many are likely to continue preemptively treating their stocks to avoid disease.

There are still some open questions for researchers studying this antibiotic resistance. For example, Bermudez wants to understand whether or not the bacterial community of imported fish changes after a few weeks at a facility in the United States. Perhaps, he says, importers could eliminate fish with these resistant strains before they are transported to fish tanks across the country, preventing the resistance from spreading

For fish and humans alike, the vicious cycle of antibiotic resistance should be a serious concern. That’s because the fewer antibiotics that work to fight a particular disease, the more likely it is to have a negative impact on the population. The more resistant genes that exist, the more likely other bacteria are to become resistant. The longer suppliers rely on antibiotics to broadly safeguard stocks, the more likely they are to develop resistance.

“So now we’re facing a kind of a crisis situation in the case of humans and animals, that many times we don’t have antibiotics or we only have one antibiotic that can be used to kill the microorganisms that’s causing the infection, and that’s a serious problem,” Bermudez says. _


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I wholly agree that "probiotic" preventative measures are the best. This is why I focus on trying to create healthy, natural style tanks with lots of micro-organisms to support 'living water'.. But yeah.. one antibiotic-resistent germ brought in on that one catfish and half my bettas are wiped out in a few days. Live and learn.

However, the majority of people posting here for the first time with a sick fish in a 1 gallon coldwater bowl aren't really up to creating such a system, and/or the fish is already critically sick. Salt is not really gonna help those fish, nor is a pea.. 

So I say "medicate the fish when it first gets sick, like from day 1, no mess no fuss - ID the illness, throw the right meds in there and pray a lot." 

Then tip the waste water on the lawn.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

all very good points. =) 

I figure that good clean warm water and good food is the best medicine, I mean how do the wild fish cope with any illnesses, except for getting eaten because it is vulnerable?


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I guess like any wild animal.. it also has to cope with free range parasites, bacteria, injury, predators, weather condition changes, severe weather.. Life is so tenacious, in all its variations, it sometimes just astounds me. 

I doubt many wild bettas get to live for 4-5 years, that probably happens through our intervention in removing all the risks, or as many as we can. 

In doing so, we may create new problems..

But yes, I agree -- in my experience, water that is clean/warm/tannin-y/plant-y and alive with good bacteria is the best thing for fish health.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Tree said:


> all very good points. =)
> 
> I figure that good clean warm water and good food is the best medicine, I mean how do the wild fish cope with any illnesses, except for getting eaten because it is vulnerable?


Yes clean warm water is great medicine, and using good food is also very important. I agree with jaysee about NLS it is a top notch pellet. Mixing in good frozen food into the diet is also very good especially if spirolina algea is in it. Hikari makes a great spiroilina infused frozen bbs. However the aquarium is the perfect breeding ground for a multitude of pathogenic bacteria. Ive seen many of my friends fish get sick and die in the last year despite being well very well cared for. Lots of them. Anyways the are many different strains of probiotics and the all have different strengths/ weaknesses. Think of them as The Avengers of the fish gut. My favorite is lactobacillus rhamnosus gg. Seriously kick butt probiotic that's approved for human use. It can easily be added to frozen foods, is cheap and at your grocery store.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have to say my wild bettas are pretty tough. Usually they only die because they jump out or they have been struck down with velvet. I've had fish with some quite severe injuries recover without any assistance from me. They also rarely seem to get diseases that are more common in splendens such as dropsy, columnaris etc. 

I always think if you have a healthy aquarium, you have more chance of having healthy fish. Of course like people some fish probably have weaker immune systems than others. However, I think taking care of your water is vital if you want to be successful at this hobby long-term. 

I feed NLS and live/frozen foods and I never really seem to run into problems with bloat even when I occasionally overfeed. I do wonder if those fish that are particularly pre-disposed have something wrong with their digestive system, or simply can't process certain ingredients in dry fish foods.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I've wondered the same thing, LBF, re propensity toward bloat, etc, as well as some diseases. I have never once had a fish suffer from bloat or severe SBD.. and I think I actually accidentally overfeed more often than should happen (tiny pellets, sweaty fingers, long nails, was today's too-many-pellets excuse..) 

But nasty columnaris -is- a problem I encounter. I think that's more to do with crappy local fish suppliers and me being too cocky and carefree about QT and hygiene (a thing I am now far more paranoid about..)

I have wondered, actually, if some issues are endemic to some water supplies and not others, due to the varying chemistry. 

Anyways, yes -- water quality. As the saying goes, 'keep the water, and the water keeps the fish'. 

I find my bettas of all varieties do very much better in tannin-y water, whether by wood tannins or IAL or peat.. I think probably as they've evolved in those conditions. Your wilds for the most part always look fat and healthy, LBF, so I see that as further evidence of the benefits, there.


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