# Is she a good candidate for breeding?



## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

I'm looking for a gold female HM to breed with my male rosetail HM. They are hard to come by but I found this girl on AB.

She does have minor imperfections. I'm hoping the more experienced amongst you can judge her overall form and provide opinions if she's suitable for breeding.











Cheers.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Can we see a photo of the male to compare? Sometimes bad traits are balanced out by the other partner but without seeing him, I can't comment on that part. I'll just comment on what I see about her form instead.

She's not actually gold, she's a Black Dragon which mean she has white scales, the lighting just makes it look a little goldish. If you want a true gold fish, you'll have to find something with Metallic copper scales instead. So with this girl, you most likely won't have many "golden" kids with the pair.

Do you have a specific goal in mind? I assume it's coloration? That will help us too to help you 

As for form, the only thing good about her is her body; nice and solid but not too male-like but still strong.
Scales are a tad uneven in their thickness but I've seen worse.
Anal fin is MUCH too long, even if the male had shorter anal fin, but considering he's a RT, I doubt he does anyway.
Caudal is rounded, should not be rounded for an HM, edges should be straight like the letter D. As far as ray's, she's a 6 rayed girl but she has a few random rays.

Do you intend to breed RT babies? It's tricky business if that's what you want, you can end up with a lot of x-factor babies and other deformities or issues down the road like tail-biting because their tails are too big.

Dorsal is small but it reaches caudal, would need a flaring pic to see if it points forward at all but hopefully the male has a nice big caudal.
Ventral's aren't down so I can't see if they match the anal fin at least as they should.

Colorwise, as I said before, she's a Black Dragon with a hint of copper and looks like it might be red-loss gene in her with that tiny bit of red on her anal fin OR she just simply has some red wash going on. Also there are some ray fusing in her anal fin too, that's not desirable.


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## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

lilnaugrim, thanks for the inputs! Here's a good photo of the male originally taken by the seller as requested.










He is black dragon and I have to agree with you that the female is also a black dragon. The seller did mention that her fin webbing is gold, which I'm hoping would pass on to their F1.

With the male, I'm trying to correct his long anal fin, smoothen his topline, stabilise his RT caudal and improve his scale evenness by out-crossing to another dragon. 

The end goal is to get black/gold dragons with 30% RT and 70% standard HM.

Would this be a feasible target? Anything in particular I should be careful of?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's because Dragon scale originally comes from Copper trait so if you notice, the boy looks a little more purple-y and metallic colored rather than the flat white that is supposed to be of a Dragon. It's just a technicality is all. So both your potential female and the male are Copper based Dragons (otherwise known as Metallics) so you have a good chance of dropping more copper based dragons of varying color from purple tints, blue tints, green tints, red tints, gold tints, and regular silver tints, but you won't get any true white dragon scales.

I don't think she'll balance his scales very well but that's something you could work on in future spawns if you were to spawn once more.

His dorsal is weak as well, rather small for his size, so that, the anal fin and the scales would be worked on next generation. With his tail size, you _should_ be able to get majority HM's, you may not get as many RT. Unless you have some serious passion of RT, I would stay away from them if you're just beginning, they can be complicated. So breeding on the side of caution is always good, she shouldn't cause that many RT's so I'd say you're relatively safe with her if you get her.


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## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

I've decided not to get the female after reading your inputs. The biggest deal breaker is her rounded caudal which I hadn't considered before and also her fused rays. I'm guessing these are traits which HM breeders would cull. 

If I continue on with copper-based dragons, which particular metallic tints would be the more dominant? I'm hoping to focus on gold, silver and red. 

You are right that his dorsal also needs work in further generations. At present, his dorsal looks smaller as they have curled significantly even in the photo. Unfortunately, the curling is more severe in his dorsal than anal.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Black drgn x copper drgn = copper based dragons. Shading (tint) depends on their genetic background. You should get yellowish fins with that female. 

It's a good thing you didn't get that female as she will probably ruin the male's fins. I suggest you pair him to a 4 ray female HM to reduce ray branching or avoid too much rose. You may not get as many HMs but in the long run you can safely continue a line of your own.

As for color, if you want gold, breed to a red dragon that has irid rays on fins or from a line of white/yellow/red dragons. A few fry should be gold/yellow, if not in F1, you should get some in F2. You might not get true gold but more of a gold/yellow dragon. It works better if you crossed a regular metallic (copper) to the said dragon. . . . dragon x dragon might not produce metallic but metallic x dragon will. True gold IMO is metallic based. 

Note: if you cross colors, you might get lots of unwanted colors. . . . just a heads up.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Glad you did not get the fm.. rounded edges easy fix.. don't like sloped anals in HM's. Though her branching is ok and a good offset for his over branching she is also short in the body. I like really long and lean torpedo looking females.

Not sure where you are headed with the colors. Gold is yellow with metallic.. non red. With a Black dragon going to get a lot of mixed colors with variations of the metallic expressions. Did I miss what you are trying to breed for?


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

indjo said:


> It's a good thing you didn't get that female as she will probably ruin the male's fins. I suggest you pair him to a 4 ray female HM to reduce ray branching or avoid too much rose.


I find you have to use care in the branching. Though the male is a bit over branched you still want good branching in the FM or it goes fast. I'd prefer 8 ray and take some at branched to 6. Never lower when breeding HM's. 

I started down a RT trail and used the less branched females and lost the HM 180 big time. Wasted spawn.. and now look for webbing width and ray length as well as the branching. I have lovely females branched over 8.. but use care to only cross to 8 ray males. Has to be a balance. OHM x OHM is a formula for an RT mess. It is no fun to breed fish like this because went to RT ..


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## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for the inputs gents. Breeding HM seems to be another ballgame than breeding PKs. I'm glad I asked for opinions before attempting my first HM line.

In terms of colors, I simply would like to retain and focus on the present colors of my male and hoping to strengthen the gold between his rays. I do like his colors. As a future possibility, to tinkle with outcrossing my F2/F3 to another red dragon, to obtain 'devil' HMs. 

I received another two females for selection by the seller. Interestingly, one is a devil dragon and one is a copper dragon-geno. Thoughts?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oooh, I particularly love the second one's form! Her caudal is quite nice! Better than the first one there with the red. The only thing with the second girl is her dorsal, it's very small but I feel like she's workable with your boy. You'd have to work back to Dragon though, I believe you'd get pretty much all partial dragons from breeding them too if I'm not mistaken. But my vote is on that second girl.


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

+1 to lilnaugrim.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

The second one is my pick. Branching good though the outside rays need to be longer to give sharper edges. Can breed towards that. Though the anal is not idea.. it is way better than the first girl. I also do not like that scalloped edge on the first female. Also.. a lot of red wash in the first as well.. if you don't want red in the fins don't introduce it. The second is metallic black.. like the male. 

Looks like you are breeding towards a lace or black orchid type pattern with metallic causing the pattern instead of the irid. That second girl would be the one to go with for that. Good luck.


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## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

Clear win for the 2nd female.  Will proceed with her. Appreciate all the inputs ladies and gents.

As for breeding towards the dragon scale, in theory, is it correct to assume the following? 

Dragon (dad) x Dragon Geno (mum) = 100% Partial Dragons (F1)
F1 x Dad = 100% Partial Dragons (F2)
F2 x Grandad = 100% Partial Dragons (F3a)
F2 x F2 = 100% Partial Dragons (F3b)
F3a x F3b = 20% Full Dragons (F4)

If not, what other line combinations should I consider? Should I try to get a sibling spawn of my current male into the mix?


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Just be careful to watch out for negative traits popping up in the mix, with that much inbreeding. If your fish are of good stock, it shouldn't be an issue, but if any bad stuff is hiding in there, you'd better keep wary. Be on the lookout for issues with Diamond-Eye.


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## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

Nimble said:


> Just be careful to watch out for negative traits popping up in the mix, with that much inbreeding. If your fish are of good stock, it shouldn't be an issue, but if any bad stuff is hiding in there, you'd better keep wary. Be on the lookout for issues with Diamond-Eye.


I fully agree. I won't push the line too far into what is necessary. I've personally owned black dragon PK's that later in life developed diamond eye. The decision I'm taking with this line is to mate every generation at 6 months old. This is to monitor any negative traits coming into prominence as they reach adulthood. I'm in no rush, and it would give me time to survey for potentials to outcross to the better part of next year.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Basement Bettas said:


> I find you have to use care in the branching. Though the male is a bit over branched you still want good branching in the FM or it goes fast. I'd prefer 8 ray and take some at branched to 6. Never lower when breeding HM's.
> 
> I started down a RT trail and used the less branched females and lost the HM 180 big time. Wasted spawn.. and now look for webbing width and ray length as well as the branching. I have lovely females branched over 8.. but use care to only cross to 8 ray males. Has to be a balance. OHM x OHM is a formula for an RT mess. It is no fun to breed fish like this because went to RT ..


It's true that branching is rather sensitive - tends to follow less rays. But personally, I prefer less rays with big webbing compared to excessive with almost no webbing. And excessive rays x 4 ray would produce 8 rays, though not as much. I find these safer to inbreed.

I had bad RT experience and would rather avoid it.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

BenBlue said:


> Clear win for the 2nd female.  Will proceed with her. Appreciate all the inputs ladies and gents.
> 
> As for breeding towards the dragon scale, in theory, is it correct to assume the following?
> 
> ...


Drg x Drg geno = drg and partial drg
drg F1 x dad (drg) = almost 100% drg 
drg F2 x F0 = almost 100% drg (literally 1 or 2 will be "incomplete" drg) 
F2 x F2 = mostly full drg, should produce more incomplete drg
Keep breeding the most drg scaled and you should get full drg in 2-4 generations.

note: I wouldn't say 100% because betta genetics is far from simple. Further, on average, only 20-30% of the total genetic will survive to adult.


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## BenBlue (Dec 16, 2014)

indjo said:


> Drg x Drg geno = drg and partial drg
> drg F1 x dad (drg) = almost 100% drg
> drg F2 x F0 = almost 100% drg (literally 1 or 2 will be "incomplete" drg)
> F2 x F2 = mostly full drg, should produce more incomplete drg
> Keep breeding the most drg scaled and you should get full drg in 2-4 generations.


That's really helpful. Good to know I will get to retain the dragon scale almost immediately. 

Thanks indjo, I always look forward to your posts on genetics and breeding. :thankyou:


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