# Ammonia gill burn?



## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

I just recieved a betta I purchased on aquabid from Thailand 6 days ago. He appeared somewhat listless at first, but has perked up and eats quite a bit.

I noticed from the start however that he takes huge gulps of air at the surface flaring his gills out entirely for each breath before diving down to swim. He is in a 6.6 gallon filtered, heated aquarium. Although it did not fully cycle before putting him in, I have never let the ammonia and nirtrite levels reach .25 ppm. And I remove solid waste everyday with a turkey baster.

Also the problem has been there from the start. Never having seen this behavior before I stupidly thought it was because he never lived in a filtered environment before and it was a thai betta sort of transition thing, like he needed to learn he can breathe in a regular aquarium. Oddly enough he looks relatively healthy (with some slight fin splitting) and is active. Could this be old ammonia burns or ammonia burning from transport?

And if so, how long will it take to heal and what measures do I take to heal it?

I have read elsewhere that he may be permanently scarred and disabled. And if that is the case I am rather livid because this was not a cheap fish and I paid extra on shipping so he would spend the least amount of time in transit.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I have had man y of betta with ammonia burns usually the fish can live a long healthy life. If you can see his gills when he flares they should be a healthy pink sick one will look red. Ammonia can also cause the teared fins. I would keep doing what you are doing there is a treatment for making it easier for them I would pm OldFishLady she knows the best and I think it was her that gave me the advice. But I have had fish that I got who had almost all of their gills burned off and managed to live happy healthy lives.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

Would you recommend aquarium salt? I do have 2 anubias and a java fern in there, but the are on river rocks and removable.

The gills appear red, but I thought that was normal since he is a dark red and platinum dragon halfmoon. And under the platinum scales you can see he is dark red. The gills should be pink?

Also I am not sure if it is not parasitic in origin because I can't tell if there is something white on the edge of one gill or it is a dragon scale. But the scales covering the gills are all platinum and normal looking. The only obvious thing is his behavior.

I will post pics tomorrow, right now I have his light off and he is sleeping and I don't want to disturb him.

And should I complain to my transhipper or the seller? Or is this just to be expected?!


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I would definatly complain to the shipper the fish should not arrive in that condition. Ammonia burns cannot be reversed. And I dont see why aq salt would hurt. The main thing is to keep the water clean until he stabilizes and his gills should always be pink and healthy although the red color of his body might be affecting the way the gills look.


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## Ashleigh (May 28, 2011)

Pics would help. I thought my fish had ammonia burns but it turned out bettas with pale complexion were like that :/


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aquarium salt but don't use in his tank if it's got live plants. It's best to treat him in a smaller container, a 1g heated tank or a small bowl you can float in his tank (honestly, AQ salt makes everything kinda slimy). It's 1 tsp per gallon of dechlorinated water. Change the water every day and redo the salt. Try that for five days, if there's no improvement, up the dosage to 2 tsps and continue for another five days.

The gills are a healthy pink red color (think of a fresh raw steak; they should be that color). Gills are always reddish because they are so close to the surface where they draw oxygen. Gills to be on the lookout for are very red gills, red like infected and angry swollen red, gray or white gills or black gills. 

If your guy has trouble breathing with his gills, you may need to keep him in lowered water levels with a bit of aquarium salt for the rest of his life.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

*What if it is gill flukes?*

So I need to change his tank from a fluval chi 6.6? Because I do notice it seems like it is too tall for him since he needs to breathe from the top.

The other thing I am wondering is, could it be gill flukes? I haven't seen any flashing or rubbing of the gills on objects or other marks on his body. But he is very active and eating and rather "darty" moving about quickly and frantically which would indicate gill flukes more than ammonia burn yes?

Would it be hazardous to treat for gill flukes with an anti-parasitic when the problem could be ammonia burn?


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

Also if it is ammonia burn and his fins were in good condition when he arrived (but was gasping) is that the fault of the transhipper? Assuming she did not change the water upon reciept? Also she was going to charge me $28 and ship it 2-3 day priority, it wasn't until I kept trying to contact her about the arrival date that I insisted upon paying more and having it guaranteed next day. I can't imagine having it travel 3 days after it traveled all the way from thailand...

But if it is gill flukes, it would have had to be advanced for it to arrive gasping and therefore is the fault of the breeder seller. Or could it have been earlier ammonia burning and not have had an effect on the finniage?

I guess my plan is on at least writing them an email, but I will post pic tommorrow to try to get confirmation on what his illness is. I am so heartbroken if he will be crippled for life


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Your transshiper is Julie Tran of San Jose, right? You could e-mail her and ask about changing the water upon receipt. It couldn't hurt to ask, anyway.

It COULD be gill flukes, that's possible. But for it to be advanced enough that he's gasping like that upon arrival, he'd have other signs too, like emaciation and lethargy and loss of appetite. Oh! Ask Julie if she put a cold pack in there. It's been pretty warm the last few days, maybe he got too hot. The warmer the water, the less oxygen. Also, if she didn't do anything to the bag he came in, like replenish the air inside, he may have been running out of oxygen, it's a long way from Thailand.

If it is ammonia burn on his gill or a very mild case of gill flukes, the aquarium salt should take care of that. But unless he got the burns in the bag en route, I can't imagine the breeder/seller would keep such valuable fish in poor conditions. All of this is worth checking out and if after all this, you think it is the breeder's fault, let us know so we can all add that person to our "do not buy from" list for aquabid.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

how long did you take to acclimate him to the water? thai water is quite a bit different to water in the u.s., most people spend about 24 hours to acclimate them, he might just be in a bit of shock from the difference still
oh, and I don't think most transhippers don't do anything to their water, just ship them off in the bag they received them in


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I wouldnt consider him crippled, but ammonia damage is almost always permanent. I doubt its gill flukes but I agree with Sakura8 it couldnt to any harm to ask both of them.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

*pics of floyd taking big gulps and flaring*

Here are the pics. It was difficult to take and I can't see any black areas or anything that is gill flukes. I think they actually look kinda pinkish reddish?

The only other thing I can think is that I retested my water after WC and it now says moderately hard. And I know Thai water is very soft. Also he actually has dragon scales that hang off the edge of his top gill area and perhaps that necessitates him taking big gulps?

I have my fluval set to very little water agitation to reduce stress, but I can turn up the filtration to create more aeration as well. I just don't know if that will hurt or help.

more pics coming next. Thank you guys sooooooo much for responses. Freaking out!


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

*More pics*

More pics..

I put an ammonia remover called microbe lift that says it will not disturb bacterial systems. And plan on putting a very low amount of salt that I have read both java fern and anubias can take. Other than that and perhaps alter the filtration I am at a loss.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He seems pretty healthy otherwise. Maybe you're right, those dragon scales are slightly hindering his breathing. And it's also possible the difference in water had an effect. Keep an eye on him and keep us posted. He's sooo handsome, it would be a shame for anything to happen to him.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

*Dragon betta thing or ammonia burn*

Well it is not like he is lingering at the top of the tank all the time gulping for air. He just surfaces more often than one should in a filtered tank and when he does the gills open out fully and the breath is very long (although usually just one breath). It is nothing I have ever seen, but I have never owned a dragon betta and his scaling is quite heavy and it is everywhere including a scale on each side that extends beyond normal gill cover.

But I feel that if is was a matter of scales, someone would have experienced it and shared it before. My guess at this point though with the sudden fin shedding and air gulping, is that there is some ammonia burn, but not enough to warrant changing his tank (he seems to enjoy every inch of it currently). I think I see some faint black areas underneath the dragon scales behind the side fins... but then I think it is just darker there because that's where his internal organs are. No major black areas I can see easily. 

I may move him to my fluval edge in a week when it is done cycling (with the water level down of course) because it provides more aeration and surface area and is shallower.

But just to be sure it is not gill flukes... would I always see flashing? Could moving back and forth against the glass (which looks like typical feed me and pay attention to me behavior) be a form of trying to itch his gills? I don't see him doing this against the sand though for sure.

BTW yes my transhipper was Julie TRan. And although it was in a styrofoam insulator there were no cold packs, hot packs or anything but the fish in his water. And the weather was ridiculously warm those 2 days of transit reaching into the high 90s in both our cities. Having never shipped before I don't know if this was a standard packing.

My seller was elegantbetta. In his defense, the betta finniage looked nice for 2 days besides the air gulping and listlessness upon arrival.

Thank you guys for your responses


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If it was extremely mild gill flukes, you might not see flashing or rubbing but if it was that mild, it wouldn't cause him to gulp for air. He probably has some mild ammonia burn which will hopefully heal up soon.

I've never bought fish online so I don't know how things would go but I do think you can request a heat or cold pack as the weather requires if the transshipper doesn't offer one herself. I know some of the local US sellers offer them voluntarily (basementbettas out of Texas, for example). I do think he may have gotten a tad too warm en route because as you mentioned, the weather was pretty darn warm and even in a styrofoam insulator, those UPS/FedEx truck holds get hot. That would explain the listlessness upon arrival.

As long as he's active and eating, he should be okay.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks Sakura8... But I now have a new problem... I went out and bought an API masters kit based upon someone's recommendation that perhaps my ammonia liquid testers (since crusty) were throwing inaccurate results.

When I re-tested all of the parameters with the more accurate liquid testers (I used paper for nitrates & ph before) the Ph results were vastly different. The ph of my water is extremely high - 8.1-8.2. Could this be causing the gasping? (The rest are currently within good parameters)

I asked my husband to pick up ph down since he is next store to petco right now. But now I have read it is best not to use chemicals to alter ph. I am so confused... Should I use bottled water? Or is it better as some say to have high ph than fluctuating ph.

I also have removed all plants and used aquarium salt to salt the entire tank at 3 teaspoons in 6.6 gallons (a low level according to instructions). I am very hesitant to salt dip him.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. That is pretty high Ph. I'm not sure but tannins from IAL or decaf green tea may lower that. Also, if you can find aquarium peat, you can filter the water over that and it will lower the Ph. Chemicals are unstable and you'll have to redo it every water change, trying to match it exactly each time so you don't shock the little guy. You can use bottled water but it may get expensive. Only way to reliably lower Ph is to use an RO machine but those are expensive and I think you have to add something back into the RO water to replace minerals. You could try him in bottled water for a week and see if he stops gasping. If he does, then it probably is the high Ph. If he still gasps, then I wouldn't mess with the Ph and would look into what else might be causing his problem.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, try the decaf green tea route. Also look into finding peat substrate or getting driftwood and not rinsing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you again Sakura8 for your quick advice. Caught husband with chemicals in hand and passed on it. Although it is awfully tempting when it feels so dangerously high.

He is now picking up both distilled and RO water and decaf green tea bags. But I am not sure how to much to use. I already did a 30% WC today to introduce the aquarium salt (and did one yesterday to keep ammonia & nitrites down).

Do I do yet another PWC with the steam distilled water? And if so how much? Or should I just add a tea bag to the fountain filter?

He seems okay with water changes (I use the bioorb pump style siphon which is a gentle start and draining pace) but it seems that changing out so much water would be risky. 

As far as long term, not into using driftwood for the fin rippage risk, but may put peat moss underneath the sand? Will that work? or in the filter? Not sure where to find "aquarium peat" but if any place has it I imagine Aquaforest in SF will have an answer.

Thanks again! Feeling overwhelmed and hope to not lose sleep over this again...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, try LFS or look online for the aquarium peat substrate. You can just add the teabag straight to the water (or try and put it near the filter stream) and either leave it overnight or just leave it for an hour or two. Either way won't hurt. And totally understand about the fin rippage thing. He's too gorgeous to risk damaging those fins.

Is he still gasping? If he seems okay and not in any distress, maybe try the teabag for now and do the water change as you originally had scheduled. Too many changes in the water he's in (chemical-wise) might stress him out even if the actual act of changing water doesn't.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Look for a product like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Peat-Granules-gram-17-6/dp/B00025642Q
Ignore the bad rating, the reviewer didn't realize how it worked. Get a small filter bag the right size for your filter and put some peat granules in. 
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4136+4160+3914&pcatid=3914
Put in place of the carbon filter. Your water won't be crystal clear, it will have a faint tea-colored tinge to it but actually, your betta will feel more at home in the darker-colored water.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

*you rock sakura8*

Thanks you rock... I feel more at ease with tea bag in.

I actually think he already looks better... maybe the use of prime in wc, the salt and the bit of teabag? Still likes to take a huge long gulp of air with gills out. But maybe less often? Or maybe he is just winding down for the night as I have his tank off and lights dimmed...

Anyway I truly feel I have done all I can, and thought that I haven't has caused the most distress...

Gonna check the ph again in an hour or so and plan on WC tomorrow with distilled.

And getting the items you recommended for sure. Calling LFS tomorrow and if they don't have it, gonna order asap.

Thank you so much!!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*blushes* Aww, you're welcome. I'm just glad I can help. He's a gorgeous guy and he came from such a long distance, what a little trooper. Maybe he has "jetlag" somehow? I sure hope he gets better for you soon.


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

*follow up to this thread*

Thought I would post a follow up for anyone that searches this topic and reads this thread.

I got the water parameters all ideal (with the use of RO pwcs), removed plants and added aquarium salt and his finniage was growing back in nicely, but he was losing scales within a few days of the last post. There were already areas I thought were simply incomplete dragon scaling on the belly when I got him, but there appeared more "missing" on the top.

On the advice of my LFS I used API general cure. Within moments of adding the proper dosage he began to flip out of the water in violently snap at his body. Then small white things began appearing and coming out of his body. In short, he did in fact have gill and skin flukes. He clearly had them before shipment, but probably did not present themselves badly until after the high levels of ammonia in shipment.

He never did do any obvious flashing, nor was there white film or many of the other indications of gill flukes other than air gulping. But it goes to show that flukes can and are present in expensive fish, and that fish can have pretty heavy infestations without many overt symptoms or current bad water parameters. Since treating the API general cure (prazi medication) he rarely ever gulps air (although there is indication that he is missing at least part of a gill on one side from ammonia burn). And he is doing great! 

Thanks for all the advice!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow. Poor guy, no wonder he seemed uncomfortable and like his gills didn't work! Thanks for posting the update, lessandler, the information will definitely be helpful to anyone doing a search for similar problems. And I know I will definitely keep your guy's case in mind as a reminder that not all fish react the same to diseases/illnesses. Poor guy, all I can say is yuuuuuck. I'm so glad he's doing much better now. Yay!


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## lessandler (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks again Sakura...

Also wanted to mention since I did mention the breeder and transhipper by name, that after contacting them, the breeder immediately offered to send me another fish free of charge (although I don't think I want another from him to be honest) and the transhipper just said it was the fault of the breeder (which considering the parasitic infection is probably true).

Despite this nightmare... I probably will get another fish off aquabid (albeit from another breeder) but he will be going in an already cycled, better filtered aquarium AFTER his stay in a quarantine tank I am also cycling. So if I need to treat for parasites again I don't have to disturb the cycle by removing the carbon and plants. Definitely a lesson in preparation!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That was nice of the breeder but I agree, I don't think I'd want another fish that may be sick. 

Quarantining really is a pain but it's worth it.  Again, so glad he's doing much better.


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