# Cross Posting: SICK BETTA from "Betta Fish Disease and Treatment Part 1"



## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi all - newbie looking for help with a sick betta. Have had him for about 5 weeks. Currently in a ~1gal Marina Cubus tank with a heater (have removed gravel and silk plants) - kept at about 79-80deg. Was planning to move him into a 2.5 gal Fluval, but for past 2 weeks, he started with something that looked like swim bladder issues - sinking to bottom, difficulty staying horizontal when swimming (sometimes floated vertically). Initially his fins were fine but at same time as buoyancy issues, got some tears in his fins from plastic plants (have since switched to silk). Was feeding Aqueon betta pellets - 3-4 pellets, 1-2x per day (dry, not soaked; he always acted starved no matter what feeding frequency!). About a week ago began laying on floor of tank, really struggled to get to top, gulped air, sank again. Had been positioning himself on plant leaves near surface or at top of heater suction cup until yesterday. Since then has stayed on bottom darts to surface and sinks - very spastic swimming. Color was faded, especially mid-line and cheeks (normally a dark turquoise with very dark face). Fed him 1/2 shelled/boiled pea 5 days ago (he still had an appetite then), and he subsequently moved his bowels twice but has refused food (pellets) since then. I've submerged a pint-sized plastic container in the tank to give him a shallower space so he can get to surface easier. No interest in anything resembling food now - just at bottom of container, heavy gill breathing. Since the issue started I was doing 100% water changes 2x per week with Betta Water Renewal and Bettafix but recently only doing 50% on advice from pet store people. Have now added Pimafix (as of 2 days ago) and aquarium salt (as of today). He doesn't list to the side any more and his color seems better - but his fins look worse - I don't know if they are stuck together or clamped but they are completely stiff and look like match sticks now. His pectoral fins seem funtional enough to get himself to surface but otherwise he cannot swim normally. I don't see evidence of ick or white fungus or anything hemorrhagic. Water tests fine for ammonia, nitrites/nitrates, pH, hardness, etc. Conflicting advice to do 100% water changes but Bettafix/Pimafix says treat for 7 days with no water changes - but I did 100pct today with fresh treatments. He seems a little bit better now than a few days ago but even with treatment I'm afraid he'll just get weaker and starve to death if he won't eat. What now?? pics attached from today


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## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm not really sure, but try shining a flash light on him. Does he look sorta goldish? Just to rule out velvet.
Generally 100% changes are reccomended, but in this case, I'll defer to someone with more experience, I'll also point Sakura over, she's super friendly and helpful.


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks, Silverfang. Does not look orange at all under light - either under LED on the Cubus tank or reg. incandescent. he actually looks dark navy blue under LED and turquoise otherwise.


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

This may sound really dumb, but are you using water conditioner?? Also, stop the bettafix and pimafix, they are harmful to bettas (why the market them specifically for them, no idea). They burn their labrynth organ (lungs). Since he's having swim bladder issues, AQ salt will only make it worse. You should instead switch to epsom salt, 1 teaspoon per gallon. You can purchase it at any drug store. Also, stop feeding peas. If he's moving his bowels then it's not a constipation problem.

*edit*
I just noticed that you said he's not eating. Try soaking his pellets in garlic juice, bettas love the taste of garlic and garlic has its own properties that are beneficial to a sick betta. If that doesn't work, try live or frozen foods.


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi Indyfish - yes, using water conditioner with every water change. Was told Bettafix and Pimafix totally safe b/c they are natural/organic - ??. Will try the switch to Epsom - just did the Aq salt today with a h2o change so could change water again tonight to switch over. How much Epsom/gallon? Re the pea, he was originally constipated - I tried it after he had 5 or 6 days of no bowel movements at same time sinking started - he passed 2 large sized ones after the pea but hasn't/won't eat since. I tried bobbing a soaked pellet up and down in front of him tonight (picked it up with turkey baster several times and let it go in front of him) - absolutely no reaction. But if I move his container, he'll perk up and swim to surface for a breath. what live food would you suggest?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well it is natural, but tea tree oil is not good for them. 
for food, try something live, or soak pellets in galric juice... just simple minced garlic, scoop out some juice, soak, feed  those two are the top two winners for getting bettas to eat.

epsom salt is one teaspoon per gallon, pre-dissolved.


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

Good, i'm glad you've got water conditioner!!! Sometimes people forget, and it causes reactions like this. Bettafix and pimafix contain tea tree oil, which is indeed natural, but it's not something that bettas can tolerate. It is irritating to their labrynth organ, and when used for an extended period of time, it can cause the fish to have trouble breathing. Try the epsom salt and see what happens, use about 1 teaspoon per gallon. Another thing you can try is Stresscoat. It's a special water conditioner that contains aloe, which is soothing to a fish. Next time he gets constipated, try giving him epsom salt or having him flare at a mirror, that usually takes care of the problem. Peas are ok to use when nothing else works, but they can damage the intestines because bettas' digestive systems are not set up to handle plant matter. Like I said, try soaking his pellets in garlic juice (either fresh or minced from a jar). If that doesn't work, pick up frozen or live brine shrimp, or bloodworms/mosquito larvae. Change his water daily, adding new epsom salt each day, and see how he does. I'm so sorry your little guy is sick, it's especially frustrating when it's not clear as to what's wrong with them =(


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

THanks Sena Hansler and Indyfish - re the Epsom salt, I've read its dangerous to be used in a tank - ie. it should only be used for "baths" or soaks for short periods of time and then return the fish to the tank. Is that true? Will also stop the Bettafix/Pimafix -- but then should I be treating with something else medicinal? Or just the Epsom in his tank and trying garlic pellets or live food? It still looks like something weird is going on with his fins - unless he's just keeping them super clamped....but it doesn't look like he's doing it voluntarily.... (Sena did you really have a 7 yr old betta "Mister"?? if yes, wow!)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes, Mister was 7 before he died. he was from one of my FAVORITE pet stores, Ralph's Pet Store until that store closed when the nice old man retired  Now my bettas barely make 2-4 :|

you can use epsom in tanks. It is harmless, very gentle, and even fine with live plants. However, 10-14 days is the max you want to use it AND it is easier in a 1 gallon to treat them anyways 

edit: to me he looks like he is just clamping his fins, which can be common with either cold water, or being sick. Being sick, there could be internal problems, or that he just has a weak immune system which can happen with store bought bettas.


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

Epsom salt is not dangerous to be used in the tank, he is perfectly fine to stay in it for several days =) I would say no longer than 10 days, same goes for AQ salt if you ever have to use it again. Just a tip, AQ salt is for external problems, while epsom is for internal problems. Until you know what's wrong with him, I'd say just stick with epsom. His belly looks a bit pale in your photos, is that normal for him?? That could indicate an internal infection.


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

thanks again Sena and Indyfish - you two seem to be giving parallel advice - experienced minds think alike! will go with the Epsom. Re light belly, frankly I don't recall that being normal/abnormal. if suspected internal infection, would treating with an antibiotic be ill advised until I give him some time to see if he comes around on his own? Btw, re fin clamping the water is at 79/80deg so don't think it's cold? Glad to see you think its just clamping. Just concerned I'm going to run out of runway with him not eating, but we'll see if your suggestions there help. Someone else told me they've never seen a fish recover from a swim bladder issue but I'm hoping they're wrong! will keep you updated.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Never seen a fish recover from swim bladder?? :lol: :lol: I've healed I think it's...4 bettas with swimmer bladder disease. One was a real long 2 month fight, with medication breaks, then back on the meds to pump that problem out. And he's a healthy little bumb now.

If it is an internal problem, depends if it is parasite or something else. I've got Maracyn 2 (trying to find Maracyn to go with it), and Furan 2, for internal/external problems. I also have Jungle fizz tabs for parasites (external/internal). so it really depends what it is


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

I'd say try the epsom salt, and see if you can get him to eat. If he doesn't start eating by wendesday morning, then I would put him on either Maracyn or API General Cure. Both will cure an internal infection. The temperature you have him at is perfect. The person who gave you the info on swim bladder disease is wrong, many fish will recover from it and some fish will even live with it for years. I had a male veiltail that lived to nearly four years old, and he had chronic swim bladder issues. The best way to keep a fish that's prone to SBD from having trouble is to feed them small meals (two to three pellets or the equivalent in other foods) once every morning. Don't feed at night, their digestive systems slow down in the evenings.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I never thought of not feeding them at night :3 I feed mine once in the morning, once at night. Though, not too late at night. (kinda like, NO late snack? :3 ) then a day of fasting a week.


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

thx Sena and indyfish - your responses are amazingly parallel - experienced minds think alike! Re pale belly, honestly I can't recall if that is normal/abnormal. If suspected internal infection, would it be harmful at this point to proactively treat him with an antibiotic? i couldn't find any Epsom so it will have to wait until tomorrow - i did however, change his water out tonight to remove the aquarium salt - so he's in plain, conditioned water now. Sena glad to hear you think looks like clamped fins vs. rot or something else. Although when I change water and let him loose briefly in "big" tank, he still sinks to bottom - or makes a frantic effort to get on top of the upper heater suction cup (near the surface). Will try garlic soaked pellets tomorrow too - does their sense of "smell" enhance their appetite? will have to search to find local store with live brine shrimp - I'm in Wilmington DE area not too many good dedicated aquatic stores around here anymore - mainly mom/pop pet stores or big chains (Petco, etc.) and I work full time during week so subject to eve store hours! If still swim bladder issue, someone else told me that they've never seen a fish recover from that. Also, certainly not wishing my little buddy in here but if/when I need to get a new one, if not from a local aquatic store (got this one from a fish store in Neward DE - Delaware Premium Aquatics), then where? online?


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

SORRY - I didn't see my last post go through so retyped most from memory and added more bits and reposted. Argh! Apologies!


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Like the feeding advice indyfish - and the day of fasting concept. He was a pig in the beginning - so i'm certain I overfed him after all I've read. Saw one post that said some would eat themselves to death if given the chance.
Re the "never seen one recover from swim bladder" comment? the "expert" at Petco - the same one who sold me the Bettafix/Pimafix and told me to dose him up on it - that it couldn't hurt. SIGH. Am now educating myself with help of knowledgeable people like you - unfortunately slowly at his expense!


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

What you're describing could just be constipation but to be honest he doesn't look bloated to me.. actually on the skinny side.. Epsom salts are a good idea, but I'm concerned it may not be enough. What do his poops look like? I'd leave the bottom bare awhile until you have this figured out so you can see how often he is going and what they look like.

A one gallon is hard to keep ammonia down. You need a 100% water change every 2-3 days max but even then based on my experience he will live in ammonia. You could try 50% followed by 100% alternating or maybe even two 50%s followed by 100%. It depends on how much waste he is producing. At this point I imagine ammonia is not building up very quickly. Stress from water changes is due to fluctuations in water parameters.. mainly ph and temp since you are using same water source. To fix ph shifts age the water a minimum of 24 hours. To fix temp you can age in a second bowl with its own heater or use a little room heater to heat the water up right before using (use bowl thermometer and stop heater about 2 degrees below where you want and then wait for the water to stabilize). If you make sure the ph and temp remain stable when you change the water, and you don't let the ammonia build, it should not be stressful for you fish.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

^+1


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Well, I think it used to be the case - was fat/eating like a hog and then the swim bladder symptoms started - he ate for about a week after that and then stopped. He hasn't eaten anything since 01/14 - except for the 1/2 boiled pea I gave him on 01/18 - after which he passed two large poops. He will not/has not eaten anything since then, so no poops since then. Also, I constantly test the water - all is normal - ammonia, nitrates/nitrites, pH, hardness. I change the water frequently now - alternating between 50% and 100% every other day at least. I keep all the new change water at 79-81deg. and I have a heater in the Cubus tank which keeps it at 79/80deg consistently. Darkmoon posted that he thought his fins looked like they are recovering from rot since they are stubby/nubby at the ends. Will do the Epsom tomorrow, try the feeding suggestions, and see what we have by Wed. i hope he makes it until his appetite kicks in! I really can't thank everyone enough for trying to help - I know tough via electronics when you can't see fish/routine/set up yourselves!


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You're over a full week like this with no improvement? Your boy is obviously stressed but I can't imagine it's not time for some meds.. At least look into it since you may need to order.

For bacterial infections you're looking for Kanaplex and Focus by Seachem or Maracyn and Maracyn 2 in combo. Skinny might suggest internal parasites but since he's not eaten in over a week that could account for that as well. Metrodazinole and Focus by seachem or a premade antiparasite pellet would treat this, if it came to it, but I'd venture it's bacterial at this point.

What did his poops look like?

Start with the epsoms but if you see no improvement over the next couple/few days meds are needed. Honestly, I think they're needed now but I understand wanting to try epsoms first.. it's just.. he's not bloated..so IDK.


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Thx Callistra - poops were pellet-colored reddish brown (nothing pea green as of yet...) - and almost perfectly round. smushed easily in a paper towel. Update from this am - he is now floating with his head at water surface, body vertical -- I can't tell if the floating is real or he's just figured out how to balance himself on his stiff tail fins to position himself like that. Will be able to tell tonight when I water change/Epsom and put him whole tank for a bit. He seems more listless now.... :-( I can get Maracyn and Maracyn II at local pet store when I get the Epsom. What's funny is that I had both in my hands this past weekend and the pet store "expert" recommended against them. Is it dangerous to dose both at same time?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Dangerous to use Maracyn and Maracyn 2 together?! No. Stop listening to him!! D: :lol: Maracyn and Maracyn 2 work together to get after positive and negative bacteria, and can be used together or on their own, and can be used while using epsom. I've had to use Maracyn2 and epsom together, never had a problem


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm thinking I will go with Epsom and start the Maracyn+II treatments tonight.

To all that have responded, again, grateful for experts like you!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Good idea  and good luck!


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi all. Hope someone is on to offer opinion. Local pet store has maracyn + II but also has tetracycline, triple sulfa, furan-2, e.m. erythromycin and something called "clout"..... are any of these a better choice at this point than maracyn + II ??


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If you lack maracyn to work with maracyn2, go with Furan2. I have it, it works the same, as using both of those


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

They have maracyn and the maracyn 2. So those or the furan?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Furan 2 contains two drugs that go after gram positive and gram negative infections but I'm not sure either are as readily absorbed as the Minocycline in Maracyn 2.. don't know either way as I'm not as familiar with Furan 2. I'd probably start with the Maracyns as see how that goes.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I've used Maracyn 2 on one betta, Furan on another...I dunno :lol: Furan is another good to have on hand kind of med  Same with Maracyn (both), ich meds, both salts... :lol: By the time it's my birthday (May) I'll have a cabinet of beta meds. And my med cabinet for humans will have: advil and bandaids :|


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi all - I'm sorry to post that my Buddy lost the fight tonight. By the time I got home tonight with the Epsom and meds, he was gone. :-( thank you so much for your timely and wisdom-rich responses to try to help. My daughter wants to bury him in the herb garden tomorrow so hope the ground isn't frozen solid! SO, we will try again, armed with betta information.  I will set up the 2.5L Fluval intended for him for another. Which begs more questions, do you have to get a filter-based tank in a nitrogen cycle before adding a betta? I have water conditioner with a bacterial "starter" in it - does that automatically cut down on (eliminate?) cycle time? And re getting another, others have really talked the quality of pet-store bettas down - if not there, where can I get a healthy one? online breeder? 
Despite our collective best efforts, RIP Buddy Betta.


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

I'm sooooo sorry you lost the little guy, I was rooting for him =( A 2.5 gallon is too small to cycle, so no worries there. All you have to do is change the water twice weekly, one 50 and one 100%, with conditioner of course. Since you are new to bettas, you should probably go with either a pet store fish, or a local breeder. Importing a fish from another state or country can be difficult for new owners, and many times fish do not do well when they are introduced to new water conditions. Pet store fish can be healthy, just do your best in finding a store where the water looks relatively clean and the fish are healthy looking (clear eyes, relatively active, no lesions or slimey patches, no salt-grain like things on them, etc).


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks, Indyfish. Can I use the conditioner with the bacterial additive or would that just be problematic in the small tank? I have reg. conditioner so no big deal. The local shops have the saddest fish I have ever seen re condition/fins, etc. I'd also like to get one on the younger side - and I don't think the pet stores would have age info on their stock? The lure of online, breeder sourced fish is hard to resist - I saw the most GORGEOUS platinum white HM boy tonight! I'm preferential to HMs but they are hard to find locally (at least here) and of good quality. But I know its not worth it until I prove myself a worthy betta mom (*SIGH*). Do you buy yours locally?


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

ALso, forgot to ask, we replaced our plastic plants with silk - will they be safe re not tearing fins? what are your thoughts on live plants?


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

No problem!!! I would use the regular conditioner to be on the safe side, I'm not sure what the added bacteria would do in a smaller tank, but I'm guessing that it would cloud the water up. You can probably find a local breeder online, check out aquabid.com. There's even people on this site that breed, check out the Breeding section to see who has a spawn going, or look in the Classifieds section. I'm not saying that you cannot buy a fish from far away, or that you're unworthy, but it is expensive and it would definitely suck to have a super gorgeous fish arrive dead on arrival, or die when it arrives because it just can't acclimate to our water. I do buy locally, my fish are all from petsmart. Miraculously, my petsmart takes great care of their fish, so I haven't had a problem with them yet! Silk plants are great, I use a few in my tanks along with smooth plastic ones. I don't use live plants just because I fear that since I have 2.5 gallon tanks, all the water changes could disrupt them, but you could give it a shot! There's a forum member on her named PewPewPew, she's an expert on plants. You could also ask OldFishLady, they are both knowledgable about aquatic plant life =)


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughts, Indyfish. Will post again when the new boy gets established.


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

seriously - how pretty is this?


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## Jimmybetta (Jan 21, 2012)

on Aquabid i might add! but (sigh) in Thailand!


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