# The New Amphibianite Spawn Log



## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So it has been ages, since I began my plans to breed. In these long months the closer I got to being ready to breed the more problems I had. Several of my breeding stock died from a mystery disease. After replacing several of my stock I one again began to get ready to breed and then my two prize boys got sick with different things. One a sudden onset of either fatty liver disease, or a tumor so now he is out of the running, my other suddenly decided to have a bad case of SBD and is recovering. So there they went.
Before that one of my girls got a very bad clumnarious infection and lost an eye, she is now fully recovered. Been a bad time of it -__-. So I have purchased new stock, and am currently QTing them. I have some of my old stock left which I will be breeding soon.

So here I am getting ready again, getting tanks ready, purchasing fry food getting it ready. So on and so forth.

So here is my new spawn my new spawn log. I will be posting pictures of my current two pairs I am getting ready to breed, and post all my info.


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## copperarabian (Apr 27, 2011)

cool, I hope everything works out


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks Copper here is hoping.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

After all the trouble you've had, you deserve a couple of great spawns. Best of luck.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks Tpocicat, I doubt it will be a great spawn, being these will be my first spawns. I will be doing my best though ^_^


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I am following and would love to see pictures of the pair! Hopefully you get some nice fry. What tail types are you working with also which colors?

Good Luck!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Right now I have a blue marble HM sibling pair I am working with, and the other pair is a dragon PK and a CT fem. PKCT is not uncommon so I am going with that for now. 
If my HMDT boy recovers he I will be breeding him to a cambo HM

I have an older pic of the PK will try to get a new one up, and I have a recent pic of the CT girl. Will try to get some of the Blue Marble pair.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Here is the CT girl

















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Here is an old pic or two of the PK


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Is it me or is the first two pictures not ct female pictures?...


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Right now I have a blue marble HM sibling pair I am working with, and the other pair is a dragon PK and a CT fem. PKCT is not uncommon so I am going with that for now.
> If my HMDT boy recovers he I will be breeding him to a cambo HM
> 
> I have an older pic of the PK will try to get a new one up, and I have a recent pic of the CT girl. Will try to get some of the Blue Marble pair.


Okay so you're currently working with the HM sibling pair then with the others?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

She is a CT, she has shorter rays that don't show up in the pics. At least she had better be a CT and a SHE haha. I bought her from my LFS where I get most of my majorly nice bettas, and they are usually pretty knowledgeable.
What do you think she is?

I am working with two pairs at the moment. The sibling pair, and the CT and PK pair. I have 2 15-20 gals, a 20 gal, and a 30 long and tall. I have enough for breeding and grow outs. I am ready to eventually face what I will be facing haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes she is a she, but man she looks like a male. I believe she is a HMPK or a PK. Not ct with short rays. Many cts with short rays still have pretty wide wed reduction and are smaller plus, hmpks and pks have that spikey look to them as well.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Hmm well then, it works great that I am going to spawn her to a PK then eh? The LFS was told she was a CT, so I guess I will see what happens.
I just love her colors and they match my Dragon PK really well.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That's perfect! Their colors will match and you will have such diversity in the fry!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Also your PK IMO looks to be a HMPK as well as the female. You should get a flaring picture of both to tell for sure.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep so hopefully I have good quality fry out of this lot haha. I knew he was a PK wasnt sure if he was a HMPK too. 
I will do what I can

Let me go find my camera I will see if I can snap a few photos of my blue marble pair.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That sounds good to me! I could look at beautiful betta pictures ALL day lol. Hopefully they pose for you


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

SHE did not want to stay still for me, so these are the best I can do right now haha.

So here are Shinobu and Zephyr


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

They look so pretty!! The female is a PK and the male is obviously a HM.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

She has to be a HMPK because they are a sibling pair lol, unless you can get a pk out of a HM spawn  if that is doable then I will be looking forward to what I can get.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Plakats do show up in HM pairings sometimes. Your bettas are really beautiful!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well you learn something new every couple days it seem haha.
Thanks ^_^.
I have some new boys I am going to try to spawn too when I find their ideal mates.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> She has to be a HMPK because they are a sibling pair lol, unless you can get a pk out of a HM spawn  if that is doable then I will be looking forward to what I can get.


If she is a sibling from the pair she can still be a PK and he be a HMPK. I have a Detla male from a HMPK and HM spawn so its very possible. Also Fasht has DT out of his HM pair and his HM pair is from the same HMPK HM spawn as mine.

You'd be surprised at the things you find in genes. Especially bettas. I think they are probably the most interesting freshwater fish in the world! That is just my opinion though.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I agree genetics on a whole is an interesting subject. The fact you can get multiple tail types from the same spawn is highly interesting. I will just have to see what I get.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I would probably be one to play a joke as a family member and buy a CT that has the colors of your spawn then put it in a jar after you jarred all the bettas to see your puzzled face lol.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha yeah I am the only one in my family that knows anything about bettas, and the only child so no one to try and pull such pranks XD


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Haha you'd have to give it to me for trying lol. Nothing better than a little humor in the fish keeping.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha indeed so.

So I am thinking with needing to find, buy, and get all the fry food started. Get the sponge filters, get the plants, and get the tanks ready. Oh and of course get more heaters. It will be start of march till I am ready to get the pairs in the tanks.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well at least you are planning ahead! (Something that many breeders dont do).

Good Luck!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep haha.
I would love nothing better than to just toss em in tanks and get breeding, but I wont breed till everything is ready


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Do you plan to ship them or sell/give away near you?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Both. I plan to sell on here, on AB, and to a few of my nicer LFS here. Give a few away to friends and such who want them and I can check in on and make sure they are being treated right. I will of course probably keep two or three sibling pairs of each. That way I can breed them and get better traits.

I am doing this as a small side business, also just because I love my bettas haha.


I am looking at setting up a couple plant and snail tanks to breed my own snails, and grow my own plants. Anywhere I can to effectively cut down cost in the long run.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree! I would love to have my snails breed and have a bunch of them but lately its not been as easy. I guess because i only found a couple and one died. Though i do have a nice tiny little ramshorn baby snail.

I want to start growing water sprite and get a bunch of pond snails. Maybe even try breedin mystery snails i dont know how but maybe ill get lucky with pitting a bunch together lol.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I was looking at getting mosses, java ferns, and water wisteria, few other quick growers.
yeah I was thinking of getting like 12 mystery snails and tossing em in the tank and hoping on getting lucky lol.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I also want marimo balls. They are so pretty and fry LOVE them
Haha mystery snails do look really nice in a big tank and with fry even better. I hear that their nests are pretty big as well.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

yeah Marimo balls are great, I just cant afford em. Places here sell them for 8-10 each -_- totally insane on prices.

Yeah Mystery Snails are nice. I have a few other types of small snails that came with some moss.
So here is hoping I can get that planted tank off the ground at some point. My breeding comes first though haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yeah i would like to see fry before seeing plants!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep, well I just ordered some IAL, IAB, and bidding on microworms. So if i get that stuff i will be one step closer to being ready to breed. Of course I have to wait on the orders to come in. Once they come in I should be sitting pretty good, or at least a few steps closer.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yep, well I just ordered some IAL, IAB, and bidding on microworms. So if i get that stuff i will be one step closer to being ready to breed. Of course I have to wait on the orders to come in. Once they come in I should be sitting pretty good, or at least a few steps closer.


Yeah, I'm going to try IAL for the first time, when I get my giant pair anyway I have never tried Microworms. Only BBS.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah this will be my first time with IAL too, so see what happens. I am doing both BBS and MicroWorms myself.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I think my fish will be automatically attracted to the IAL and the males will make a nest under them.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well here is hoping.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes lots of hoping!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Indeed so, So how are your spawns going?


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Indeed so, So how are your spawns going?


Ugh. Don't get me started in my spawn. The dad (Draco) ate the fry after the hours of caring for them. I think he just was tired of swimming up and down.

I am reconditioning for the 5th time now and Bowen made a nice sized nest for her but Its going to be for Draco to take care of because his nests are so tiny! I refuse to give up on this pair though.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Uhg, good luck mate really.
I know I get to look forward to tearing my hair out time and time again. Sigh its going to be a long road, but a fun one, and a good learning experience.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Breeding can be terribly frustrating, but once you get a successful spawn, you forget about all the frustration.
Good luck


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree and am a bit surprised because I didn't have so much trouble before this spawn and this spawn was my ticket back into breeding after a few months of not breeding.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well this will be my first chance at breeding so here is hoping I dont have toooooo many problems haha.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I am subscribed to the Amph spawn log! Hurray!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So I am one step closer again.
I picked up BBS today. My LFS carries a canister of eggs, so I can hatch them when I am almost ready to breed. Hurray for BBS hatcheries. Now here is a question. Is there a way to grow the BBS to adults and breed them thus having a complete cycle going?
I also picked up a Marimo today so yay for having that.

All I am missing at this point is the rest of the plants which I will hopefully pick up friday, the snails again friday, I am going for mystery snails goin to try to get about 6 or so. Gold, Blue, Black and maybe Ivory. So hopefully I can breed them too.
Missing heater and filter (though I may have the sponge filter so all I need is the heater.

Hopefully I will have Microworms, and vinegar eels soon too.


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## Enkil (Jan 15, 2012)

Your pairs are lovely. I'll be following your spawn log. ^_^ Good luck.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Haha, Amph, mystery snails will breed themselves as long as you have a guy and a gal. Just ask Silverfang.

I'm sure there is a way to breed brine shrimp but alas, I do not know the answer.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

you can grow them to adults since that's pretty much what a sea monkey colony is. not sure how much effort it requires. the problem is that the bbs has the most nutrients when they're just hatched and still have their egg sacs. plus the fry won't be able to eat full grown brine shrimp for quite a while and it's hard enough just separating the bbs from the unhatched eggs and their shells much less throwing adults in there too, lol


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

What's the difference between decapsulated brine shrimp eggs and bbs? I mean, nutrition wise? If I remember correctly, you can just soak the decap eggs and feed without having to hatch them, right?


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I think they're supposed to be pretty good as far as nutrition goes. my fry didn't touch them though. they'd watch them sink but because they weren't wiggling they didn't eat them. may try them again now that they're bigger


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ah, I see. They didn't appeal to their natural feeding instincts.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha yeah Sakura that is why I am going to get like 6, I will have to have at least one pair in that lol.

Yeah I was just wondering if there was a way to be able to breed and harvest the BS eggs to put into a hatchery so I dont have to buy another tube haha.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I think it would probably be a lot of effort and very little gain. I mean you'd have to heat it, do water changes with salt each time, feed them, and figure out how to harvest the eggs, then dry them. plus I think if you were harvesting them yourself the hatch rate would probably be pretty erratic. 
I only use like half a teaspoon of eggs for 3-4 feedings for around a hundred 1.5 month old fry so it's not like you go through them super fast, lol.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well good to know Tisia good to know.  It was an idea ya know nothing set in stone just curious haha.
I need to find what type of live food I can get for my adults to get them better conditioned.


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## Tisia (Mar 15, 2011)

I mean if you want to try it go for it  lol. I just wouldn't go into it expecting it to save you all that much. I did a quick google search seeing if I could find anything about harvesting the eggs at home and couldn't find anything


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I've got a whole book on culturing live food and it doesn't say anything about breeding your own brine shrimp. Just says to use quality eggs that come in sealed cans instead of boxes or packets because the hatch rate is more reliable. And that like 90% of the brine shrimp in fish food comes from the Great Salt Lake.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

My fry love decaps! When they sink to the bottom, they follow them down and eat them all up. I guess all fry are different.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I may try decaps at some point but right now, live food is where I am focused.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Whatever works, that's the important part.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

My IAL came in, and the seller gave me two IA seed pods free. YAY!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That's great! I can't wait to get my fish and IAL soon

I love receiving things in the mail! It's like opening a gift although you know what you were getting lol.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks, Bettalover, you just made me want to place my second Amazon.com order of the week. ;-)


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I just realized that I've never read the first few pages of this thread.... until now. 

@Amph: Your bettas are not CT. They might have slight protruding rays, or what you guys call comb tails which won't show in the pictures. But they're definitely not CT. 

IMO, your sibling pair are long finned.

If you want to culture your own shrimp, try the fresh water fairy shrimp. Here's where it was discussed. Go to page 6
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=51144&page=6


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Fairy shrimp are endangered where I live. My dad worked on a project (engineer) and had to get all sorts of permits to dig in the area because of the fairy shrimp who live there. They're like freshwater sea monkeys, they . . . whatever the term is for dry up and then rehydrate when the rain comes. Read it in a book.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Sakura8 said:


> Fairy shrimp are endangered where I live. My dad worked on a project (engineer) and had to get all sorts of permits to dig in the area because of the fairy shrimp who live there. They're like freshwater sea monkeys, they *Dehydrate* whatever the term is for dry up and then rehydrate when the rain comes. Read it in a book.


:-DJust to add in: (Dehydrate).


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bwuahahaha, oh man. You can really tell the old brain took a vacation on me right there, can't you? :lol:


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

That's understandable because I think you must either dry or freeze the eggs before you can hatch them. If you disturb that process, their following generation wont make it. 

The best part of culturing them is that they're said to be easy to keep and will produce tons of eggs. Unfortunately, for me, they need lower temp.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Haha, Sakura, you truly are a kid at heart.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Indjo, yeah, that makes sense. I guess here in my neck of the woods, we're one of the few places where they still have a habitat hence they're protected species. I wasn't even allowed to go out to the work site and walk around because I could have damaged them.

Bettalover, *hugs* Awwww, thanks.  With my next birthday coming up in a month, I feel better.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Indjo I only sorta thought the one girl was CT because she was sold as such. I wasn't sure but I had nothing to argue with on that. I only had one other CT girl and she had really really long rays.

Thanks for stopping in and giving me your advice, and info though ^_^.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

No worries. Just wanted to confirm what others said.
Sorry I didn't realize my mistake earlier - I thought they have spawned because there was a discussion on what you planned to do with the fry. But then I realized that I never saw anything about the fry.....


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

haha thats fine, nope no spawn yet. Hopefully they will be ready to breed by the 1rst and the supplies i need are in by then.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Here is an update.
So I have a sponge filter, an adjustable heater, hornwart, water whisteria, aluminium plant, long sword grass, a marimo moss ball, xmas moss, IAL, 3 mystery snails. I have BBS eggs, should have MW and VE on the way.
I am going to begin cycling the tank before spawning using White Clouds at 70 degrees. Then when I remove them before I put the bettas in I will increase the temp. I have a 5 gal for the white clouds.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Houston, we are good to go. XD


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

yes we are. Tank is set up, i just need some air tubing to set up the sponge filter.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well got my sponge filter set up now. So the tank is up and running ^_^ officially as of today. Got the heater in it set to 72 or so for the white clouds, plants, and snails. I have the sponge filter set up and going. The tank is full of plants, and good things. Can't wait to get breeding.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Neither can I. What colors and tail types are you using?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

On the first page you can see my first pair.
They are HMPKs green, blue, bit of gold, and red/orange fins. The male is dragon scale.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Ahh I see. I just forgot. So that is the pair that you decided to start off with.

Their fins are also nicely even. Good choice.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

No worries.
Yeah that is my starting pair, then in 2 months I will spawn the blue marble pair. then 2 months after that, probably a crown tail pair. I am thinking my white boy who had a purple stripe on his tail with my dark green/black mustard gas CT girl i just got.
I will be spawning every 2 months or so. So as one tank comes available the next spawn should be about ready to go. This way I always have fry on hand to sell. 

I went in and talking to one of my LFPs who just changed hands. I was talking to the owner about her fish section (which is under reconstruction) and told her i was going to be breeding bettas. She replied with, "and why aren't you supplying my bettas?" So looks like she is very interested in me being her supplier. Which is great. They are a very nice LPS.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Here are some pictures of my breeding tank I posted in another thread
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=981028&posted=1#post981028


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

You're way ahead of where I was when I attempted my first spawn several years ago. You're doing great!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thank Tpocicat ^_^, glad to hear it. I am very excited and very nervous at the same time.
So my worms should be in the mail. I got MW, BW, WW, and VE on the way. With BBS here... My fry are going to be in hog heaven lol


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

The tank is looking amazing! Are there guppies in the tank as well?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

BettaLover - thanks ^_^. Nope those are not guppies, those are white clouds. I have the tank at about 70 for them. I will take them out, at least as many as I can find then put them a 5 gal(to start with) to start breeding them. I am using them to start cycling the tank so the poor fry don't have it cycle on them, or at least that is my excuse and reasoning haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> BettaLover - thanks ^_^. Nope those are not guppies, those are white clouds. I have the tank at about 70 for them. I will take them out, at least as many as I can find then put them a 5 gal(to start with) to start breeding them. I am using them to start cycling the tank so the poor fry don't have it cycle on them, or at least that is my excuse and reasoning haha.


Oh. I have never heard of the name White Cloud in terms of fish before lol. Are they in the same family as the tetras? They seem to have all the fins that tetras have.

I hear that it's hard to breed tetras and other small fish (like white clouds) because of how difficult it can be to determine the sex. Is this true?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

They are actually cooler water minnows(65-72 degrees but can handle warmer and even down to the 40s.). I was reading they are pretty easy to take care of, and breed, besides one of my LFS sells em for 20 cents each haha


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> They are actually cooler water minnows(65-72 degrees but can handle warmer and even down to the 40s.). I was reading they are pretty easy to take care of, and breed, besides one of my LFS sells em for 20 cents each haha


You see fish that are priced like this...You just HAVE to buy them! I know I have this problem a lot!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah, just can't pass up a good deal like that. besides they are cute and cool little fish. Also could be good live food for things too. I was reading they are great community fish no aggression at all. Males may flare some, but that is the end of it.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

They are fish that FLARE?!!? I never heard of another fish that can flare. Do they need to be in groups? Also they would be nice in a sorority tank.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah I bet they would be good in a sorority...if the girls didn't eat them lol. They don't get that big. 
Yeah I read somewhere that they can flare...


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yeah I bet they would be good in a sorority...if the girls didn't eat them lol. They don't get that big.
> Yeah I read somewhere that they can flare...


I am the SAME way when getting a fish. I always do so much research and for some reason love to read about fish. If they don't get that big, then they might just be bullied to the point of death since female bettas can really be "mean" at times. I would get tons of them and put them in a 10-15 gallon.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah, I may pick up a new 10 gal eventually. Right now the 12 I have will have to survive in a 5 gal when I take them out of the betta breeding tanks.
here is some info I found on them
http://finatics.hubpages.com/hub/fish-care-white-cloud-mountain-minnows

edits. 
Here is a great article on them that does mention flaring in the breeding section.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Tips-on-White-Cloud-Minnow-Care-and-Breeding&id=5566847


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yeah, I may pick up a new 10 gal eventually. Right now the 12 I have will have to survive in a 5 gal when I take them out of the betta breeding tanks.
> here is some info I found on them
> http://finatics.hubpages.com/hub/fish-care-white-cloud-mountain-minnows
> 
> ...


They are great sources. I just wonder...Would they actually have their gills come out like bettas? Or is it just the widening of their fins?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah that is a real good question. well my White Clouds are less than half an inch long right now, so that means they are still pretty young.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yeah that is a real good question. well my White Clouds are less than half an inch long right now, so that means they are still pretty young.


About how old would you guess? I have no experience with this fish so I would never be able to guess. If it was a betta fry then I would be able to come up with an assumption.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I was reading they would be about half an inch at 6 months, and these ones are less than that, so I would say 3-4 months or so. Maybe less. I donno. First time I have had these.

So I am thinking I will breed my new Purple CT girl to my my black and green Mustard gas boy here eventually. Maybe as my second spawn.
He is showing off for her, and she is showing breeding stripes already @[email protected] They are in tanks next to each other.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> I was reading they would be about half an inch at 6 months, and these ones are less than that, so I would say 3-4 months or so. Maybe less. I donno. First time I have had these.
> 
> So I am thinking I will breed my new Purple CT girl to my my black and green Mustard gas boy here eventually. Maybe as my second spawn.
> He is showing off for her, and *she is showing breeding stripes* already @[email protected] They are in tanks next to each other.


I hope you meant "breeding bars." Stripes are examples of stress.

I just bought a HMPK mustard Gas male. He seems to be turning two different colors. I thought I was crazy and thought it was the lighting but it's not. He turns from Black to a really nice bright purple color. It was a little hard to get on camera, but I got it:

Black:









And then Purple:

















These are really light colored purple^^^^^^^^^^^

And an amazing vibrant purple:









Oh yeah and he is a dragon (My favorite!)


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah I meant bars lol. I knew what I meant XD They are vertical [ [ [ [ not horizontal========= haha

Wow he is pretty, yeah I can see that vibrant purple. That is just stunning.
My Mustard gas is black base with green scales.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yeah I meant bars lol. I knew what I meant XD They are vertical [ [ [ [ not horizontal========= haha
> 
> Wow he is pretty, yeah I can see that vibrant purple. That is just stunning.
> My Mustard gas is black base with green scales.


LOL. I know. It's just late and now is the time that I start thinking about things that dont even makes sense haha.

Green?! That's interesting to think about. You should post a picture.

Also would you mind giving your opinion on this thread for me?:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=93313
It has to do with the color changing HMPK MG.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

haha I know the feeling.

Here is a pic of him.

sure I will check it out


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> haha I know the feeling.
> 
> Here is a pic of him.
> 
> sure I will check it out


Ahh now I see! The green color is really unique! I usually see blue scales on Mg's.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I see a variety of colors on MGs here, but never that color of emerald green. He was so worth the 12 bucks I spent for him lol. I can't decide if I will breed him to a different HM, my electric purple fin CT or my MG ct. Well first spawn first, then decide from there haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Haha! It is a little hard when trying to figure out who to breed when you have two potentially amazing pairs with enough time and patience for one!

His emerald green color is really vibrant and has a nice touch to the dark body. (He's a dragon as well which is also a plus!)


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep, I know the feeling, so many great pairs, so little time to do at a time haha.

Yeah he is a nice little dragon scale, can't wait to breed, I put some IAL in some of my boys tanks and they are loving it.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yep, I know the feeling, so many great pairs, so little time to do at a time haha.
> 
> Yeah he is a nice little dragon scale, can't wait to breed, I put some IAL in some of my boys tanks and they are loving it.


That is why I love having back up pairs! I find that I get impatient with a pair and tend to give them few chances when I have other pairs.

Are they making bubblenests? They usually love IAL and it keeps them nice and healthy!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah , well _may call them my back up spawn, Get some half suns going._

My blue marble boy sure is. I added some to others who have some what.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well my worms should be here any day now. This weekend I am going to get some cheese clothe for the worm containers for the tops. Also going to pick up about half an ounce of live black worms to finish conditioning my spawn.

I am thinking I will condition a few pairs just in case this pair doesn't take. I think my first back up pair will be the purple CT and the Mustard gas HM.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Well my worms should be here any day now. This weekend I am going to get some cheese clothe for the worm containers for the tops. Also going to pick up about half an ounce of live black worms to finish conditioning my spawn.
> 
> I am thinking I will condition a few pairs just in case this pair doesn't take. I think my first back up pair will be the purple CT and the Mustard gas HM.


What an interesting Back up. Though you should know that it takes more generations that you think to create nice looking Halfsuns. It is doable, so dont let me discourage you!

What color halfsun are you going for?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

With the body colors of the fish I have, I am hoping on a purple with emerald body, with yellow and purple finage. It may create a form of butterfly I am not sure. My HM as was pointed out is a dragon scale so that could make it a purple base with emerald scaling. 

I also have my Blue Marble sibling Hm, HMPK pair to breed as well. The male have a lot of cellophane in the fins.

I found a very interesting article on Marbles though
"The marble betta was created in the beginning of the 1970s by Orville Gulley, a prison inmate at the penal institute in Indiana [3, 8]. Orville as breeding betta here in peanut butter jars, as part of a rehabilitation program. The story goes that Orville was trying to create a black butterfly betta which then led to the discovery of the marble gene. Walt Maurus and a handfull of other breeders started to breed the marbles for pattern and this lead to the distrubution of the marbles all over the United States. The orginal marbles were black and white but now they are available in virtually every color imaginable.
In young marbles bettas the marble pattern can shift from week to week and once the fish matures most of the times the pattern is fixed. 
The marble mutation appears to be a partly dominant gene, the marble (Mb) gene, which has a highly variable expression. When marbles are introduced into a true-breeding solid colored line, it is becomes very difficult for the breeder to return his stock to a non-marble true-breeding solid colored type."


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> With the body colors of the fish I have, I am hoping on a purple with emerald body, with yellow and purple finage. It may create a form of butterfly I am not sure. My HM as was pointed out is a dragon scale so that could make it a purple base with emerald scaling.
> 
> I also have my Blue Marble sibling Hm, HMPK pair to breed as well. The male have a lot of cellophane in the fins.
> 
> ...


Oh I knew that besides who created it.

They usually call it the Jumping gene as well because it is known to change a betta and make it look as if it were a completely different betta. I have read this on Bettysplendens.com the article name is ("The Ever Changing Marble").

These are truly my favorite bettas because of the amazing surprises!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well I find it fascinating that a prison inmate created such a wonderful color variant. Yeah they are amazing, I can not wait to see what happens with my marbles.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Well I find it fascinating that a prison inmate created such a wonderful color variant. Yeah they are amazing, I can not wait to see what happens with my marbles.


The world works in mysterious ways! A PRISON inmate. That is truly amazing! Haha its funny that a prison inmate is today respected as a betta breeder LOL!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I know it truly is amazing, who could have guessed a guy like that could make Marble bettas. I also find it amazing that he knew enough about betta genetics to try what he was trying,


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> I know it truly is amazing, who could have guessed a guy like that could make Marble bettas. I also find it amazing that he knew enough about betta genetics to try what he was trying,


I agree, especially since he went to prison. Though we should remember that not all people go to prison for the "right" reasons either. I wonder how he get the marble gene. (What color would the original "solid" pair have to be?) You see it was the mixing of colors.

Also as many of us know, marbles will eventually get to a butterfly pattern in a couple generations. To be clearer, if you have a marble pair that does NOT have such a wide variety of marble on them or in their genes you can get the butterfly gene eventually present. This is why when you explained that he tried to get a black BUTTERFLY, the light bulb just went.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well a true spawn log update now haha.
I have gotten my WM,MM,BM, and VE in today and at in their new cultures. So those should be ready to use in a few days to a week. Which is about what I am looking at before I spawn. I am looking at starting my spawn next friday or saturday.
I picked up live black worms to feed the pairs to get them conditions. So it really is just a matter of a little bit of time and me getting ready to breed.
This is so exciting I am just a few short day away from being fully ready.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Well a true spawn log update now haha.
> I have gotten my WM,MM,BM, and VE in today and at in their new cultures. So those should be ready to use in a few days to a week. Which is about what I am looking at before I spawn. I am looking at starting my spawn next friday or saturday.
> I picked up live black worms to feed the pairs to get them conditions. So it really is just a matter of a little bit of time and me getting ready to breed.
> This is so exciting I am just a few short day away from being fully ready.


YAY! I have to give you points for being so patient and well collected!

Live blackworms, are they okay to feed fry? I have only heard of these on the forum.

If they are long or too big is it possible to cut them up or something?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks BL2033 I want to make sure I have everything ready before I begin this wondrous adventure.
The black worms are going to the adults I am going to spawn. So far I have been conditioning with their normal food of betta pellets and frozen blood worms. I wanted to get this some live food to brake it up and help with it. The only thing I can get here is the black worms


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yeah, I hear that the commonly known pet stores hold Black worms and frozen blood worms and frozen brine shrimp that was over a pound for $7.

I haven't heard anything about the result of black worms yet so let me know how they work out for color, finnage restore and overall health if you wouldn't mind.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

yeah gladly will. Well I think I over paid for them then XD. I picked mine up for 5 buck and ounce, but meh only live food I can get here at this point. 
I will let you know if I see any changed in them. I am hoping the live food will help get them in the mood for breeding.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> yeah gladly will. Well I think I over paid for them then XD. I picked mine up for 5 buck and ounce, but meh only live food I can get here at this point.
> I will let you know if I see any changed in them. I am hoping the live food will help get them in the mood for breeding.


I have never tried live foods when breeding, but have always heard good reports on using them.

Wow $5 an ounce. Jeeze breeding isn't cheap huh.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah I have good things too so figured give it a go.
Um it was 5 an ounce.... not a pound @[email protected] very expensive.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Yeah I have good things too so figured give it a go.
> Um it was 5 an ounce.... *not a pound* @[email protected] very expensive.


Oops. LOL it's late and my brain isn't functioning right.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha its fine I know the feeling @[email protected]


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Haha I stated many times, my thoughts after 1am are either nonsense or dangerous.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I've used live blackworms for awhile now. They work really well. My adult bettas love them. I also give them to my tetras. Not only are they good for conditioning, they make a wonderful treat at other times.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks for the info Tpocicat. Glad to know they work as well as I am hoping they will haha. Hmm I will have to give some to my tetras then too.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

tpocicat said:


> I've used live blackworms for awhile now. They work really well. My adult bettas love them. I also give them to my tetras. Not only are they good for conditioning, they make a wonderful treat at other times.


How long do they live?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So its been awhile so here is an update.
I have gotten, my worms, and eels in, and am, currently trying to get the cultures going full bore. Now here is my current problem. While the eels are thriving, the worms have not changed state since arrival. I think I will put them in a new medium today and see how that react. I was trying the mash potato method, but so far it doesn't seem to be working. Anyone have any suggestions?
In other news I wrote I was using white clouds to get my breeding tank ready, well I had a rather curious thing begin to happen. They started vanishing, literally vanishing. I started off with 12 over the course of the two weeks or so I was down to two. I have no idea what happened to them, all I can think is that they died and the snail ate the corpses before I could find them.

So I have set up an experiment. Over the course of this week or so will see what happens. I have bought another 5 minnows and put the remaining two and the new five in new 5 gal set up. Heavily planted(for a 5 gal) gravel, all very nice. 2 mystery snails and 3 small albino corys(in there short term really).

I then have purchased 2 cheap feeder gold fish for the breeder tank. Which is heavily planted and has 3 mystery snails in it.

This experiment is to see if it is tank or the fish that is the problem. If the minnows are sick and are dying in the new tank but everything else is fine then I know it is the minnows. If the gold fish die then I know something is wrong with the tank/water and the snails are not being affected. 
This will allow me to determine if the tank is safe for usage for breeder as I believe it is, or if it is not I need to set up another tank. Now only time will tell.

This has been your spawn log update for the day.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I buy 1 oz at of black worms at time, they live several weeks, I change the water in the bag they come in using declorinated water.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well it has been a long road to this point, but I think I am going to introduce the pair into the breeding tank tomorrow. 
I am starting a second culture of both the eels and the worm mixture today or tomorrow, to make sure I will have a lot of them going. My worm culture is getting well established at this point, and my current eel culture while smaller is thriving, so hopefully by dividing and establishing more I will create enough for fry food. I will be making BBS hatcheries tomorrow as well in preperation to starting them up.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Well it has been a long road to this point, but I think I am going to introduce the pair into the breeding tank tomorrow.
> I am starting a second culture of both the eels and the worm mixture today or tomorrow, to make sure I will have a lot of them going. My worm culture is getting well established at this point, and my current eel culture while smaller is thriving, so hopefully by dividing and establishing more I will create enough for fry food. I will be making BBS hatcheries tomorrow as well in preperation to starting them up.


Well we all look forward to pictures when they are introduced.

Also as someone who uses BBS throughout the whole fry food feedings, I would suggest starting the BBS hatchery after the fry hit 4-5 days old since BBS are really at their highest nutritious point for the first day and couple of hours. Though they aren't just worthless after that first day. I use them even after 3-4 days because mine have lasted that long more so. For others, I have always heard that they die easily, but mine last me a while.

I usually wait a whole week until feeding them ( many breeders are against it, but it's what works for me) because they seem to be a lot more ready to eat and their instincts kick in because they are hungry fish.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks for the Tips BL2033
I can't wait to get started here. I am sitting at a buddies house in town because I had an event late into last night. So I will be heading home and getting ready.
Expect pictures and I will have the video camera ready and waiting to try to catch my first spawn on video.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I am the same way! I always have my camera ready, but usually they never stay still until they are embracing.

We can't wait for pictures soon!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well he is in the tank, and she is in her vase in the tank. Now it is time to watch and see how they do I will have some pictures of this stage up soon.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> Well he is in the tank, and she is in her vase in the tank. Now it is time to watch and see how they do I will have some pictures of this stage up soon.


Hopefully they are fast spawners. Today will be the second day of my red pair. The male built a pretty good bubblenest under the IAL and the female is still hiding. Thankfully he doesnt go for her body with nips but her fins are not too bad either. He has been trying to LURE her since yesterday. So he is ready and she is still scared.

I could see that he gets frustrated with her when she ignores him and he nips her, then he tries to flare and he is constantly doing the "Betta Dance." My favorite part!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

He has started to blow a bubble nest now.
He blows a few bubbles, then swims off to look at her in the vase, then swims around the tank for awhile. He watched her and watches and shows off, then ignore her as she ignores him. Then he blows a few more bubbles then foes it again.
I will watch it for another how see if she is showing interest. If she does I will release her. If she doesn't I will leave it over night.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I usually leave her over night until to give him a chance not to get too excited and dont work on the bubblenest, but after that day if he doesnt have a bubblenest STILL, I release her anyway.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So Quetzalcoatl's IAL sunk over night...Leaving me with a boy with no bubblenest and far too concerned about breakfast for him to care.
I have feed both of the pair, and put in two new IAL to float, leaving the one on the bottom. Maybe he will begin to nest again while I am go to town for a bit. If there is a next or not, I will be placing her in the tank this midmorning/early afternoon.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So they are both in the tank, he is busy flaring and chasing her. She just swims away, but he is being surprisingly gentle. He has not nipped her once, just chases and flares. Then takes a break to blow a bubble in his still not there bubble nest -__-. 
But over all it is amazingly gentle in the tank.

Prepare for a pic spam in the next post


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)




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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So Today they embraced. I have eggs, they are spawning like made, I must have over a hundred eggs already. 
I had to do a quick action and remove the snails from the tank, because all 3 were headed straight for the spawn site. My pair didn't care though, they are still spawning and happy.
This is so exciting my first spawn is a success so far.
Pictures and videos to come.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Click the last four images for movies.

































































































Below here click these for movies.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow your camera is really cool! I love the pairs colors! And I can't wait til mine get to the age of developing their color! I forgot how exciting this is! Both our pairs spawned on the same day! Probably it the same time, but definitely on the same day! I will be checking tomorrow or later around this time to see for wrigglers!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Finally.....
Congrats on the spawn. Now the fun begins ...... raising fry.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep finally so excited they decided to spawn it was unexpected. I took a shower and walked back into my room to find them embracing. I was in shock then ran to find a camera haha.


BL2033 - mine started at 2:15ish and continued for another hour or so.
Thanks, I will need to go find your spawn log to stalk too haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well I am currently making one. What is the coincidence of three spawns in one day
?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Cool post a link and I will follow it.
3 spawn oh not huge odds, 3 spawns of people who were talking about having problems getting them to spawn happening withing hours of each other now those are betting odds XD


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That is nice though because we can all compare results. Also if you really think about it, millions of people are having spawns at the same time, just on different parts of the world. Though the weird thing was that all of us had a successful embrace today after having the same problems for a bit.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Congratulations to all three of you! I hope you get the results you are breeding for.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Tpocicat - thanks I think I will get what I am looking for. 
I am looking for green based HMPK Dragons, which with the parents I should get.

BL2033 - exactly amazing odds but happy they happened. I can't wait to be able to compare all the fry and see how my first spawn compares to some of the more experienced breeders during the same time frame.

Now a quick question, when do I need to cover the top of the tank with plastic wrap to start getting the humidity up? I see it is humid in their, but the air will be a bit cool so I need to work on fixing that.

Also everything should be fine with me being gone till tomorrow afternoon correct? I have family willing to take care of all my fish while I am gone. (I am low on gas and am staying in town for classes to save money)


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

You should cover the tank in vegi wrap or something like it when the fry are around 2 weeks old.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So my male is doing alright for a first time dad. He is tending the nest, and keeping watch, but he has quite a number of eggs on the ground, and only like 15 in the nest. 
He does go down and retrieve eggs, but he only have a few bubbles under a leaf he is trying to put them all in. He puts a few eggs in and knocks three times as much out. Poor boy is just making more work for himself.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Well.....at least he's keeping the fungus off.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep he is doing a good job for a first time dad, I am impressed.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

tpocicat said:


> You should cover the tank in vegi wrap or something like it when the fry are around 2 weeks old.


I would suggest doing this right now to keep the whole tank humid. This helps develop the fry's labyrinth organ correctly without dry air also it is very good for your male's breaths as well.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah I knew it helped develop the lungs, I wasn't sure at which point it needed to be done.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Im pretty sure they are developed when the fry are free swimming at the surface and breathing the air so to be safe I would secure it now.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I have sent a message home to have family do that for me. I will be checking on it when i get home tomorrow afternoon. I expect wrigglers by that point haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I am always looking at them to check for wrigglers!

I just don't like the waiting game for hatchery LOL. I found that my iPad takes better pictures than my camera with the lighting of the tank ATM.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah the waiting game is killer, but I can't help it. I will be rushing home and going are they okay, yes okay wrigglers, bobbers, whats going on !!!!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm staring at them and the family walks by saying "Staring at the won't make them grow faster."


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha, well you never know, maybe they like the attention.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree! I think that fish enjoy the attention and activity that goes on outside of the tank.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

same here, and I think that if you raise fry to have attention the will look better and preform better for future owners.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> same here, and I think that if you raise fry to have attention the will look better and preform better for future owners.


Also this helps with lessening the betta's desire to flee when in contact with too much movement. Some of my REALLY nice fish dont even jump when my younger cousins used to tap on the glass. They usually just swim in a vertical pattern on the fish tank glass. That is what is important to non breeders. Non breeders dont want fish that always hide and are scared of anything that comes to near.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Exactly.
The regular consumer wants a fish that will show off, look stunning, and be there for them to look at. One that is full of personality and will be their companion.
Where are hobbyist, and breeders will benefit as well, when they wish to photograph their fish, and look at the rays, the fins and scales for breeding.
So fish that are trained to be show offs and be sociable will sell better than those who just hide.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Very good. I'm glad you are another who understands it as well.

When do you get home? at the moment still no wrigglers from which I see. Also what time did you say they started at approx. because it would be different since I'm on the eastern part of the us and you the western.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

People of like mind are we, haha.

I will be home roughly 3:30ish PST. My class get out at 2:15 or so, provided we are not going to run late.
My spawn started approx 2:15pm PST and continue for 2-3 hours.
So for you 6:30ish, and 5:15-what ever XD


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well if yours started at around 2:15ish, then it was 5:15ish. Only a three hour difference.

Surprisingly, my fish finished in an hour time. They started at 8:06 and ended 9:36pm so roughly an hour time. I thought it would be longer since they have never bred before, but I was wrong lol.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Well still no wrigglers on this end


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Same here. No wrigglers and also I will have to shine the light under the nest later to check again. He hasn't let the bubbles go so there must be eggs still.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

haha my male have like 3 bubbles under the leaf and just has the eggs stuck there.
I am expecting this to be a medium to small spawn actually. I don't have more than a hundred eggs.
Good news is though I took pictures of the male and female I had printed off into the LFS and the Lady who owns it was thrilled and can't wait for me to be ready to supply her store.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Good news!!!!!

I have fry. There are now wrigglers for the past 45 minutes. I started seeing them at around 9:25-9:30 pm eastern time.

I was wondering why I didn't see any eggs in the nest anymore so now I'm waiting on them to be free swimming and I will wait another day after seeing a lot of them free swimming just to be sure they all have that extra help from dad.

There doesn't look mike many fry in the tank, but I guess only time will tell. I have always worried the first few days about a lot of fry, but end up with 40-70 fry on average.

How are the eggs if they are still eggs?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So my male not only moved his nest....he MOVED THE NEST! He moved the leaf he was nesting under. I don't see eggs though, so I think I got wrigglers.
I can't get good look at the nest now. He is still tending it so makes me think he didn't eat the eggs.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Amphibianite said:


> So my male not only moved his nest....he MOVED THE NEST! He moved the leaf he was nesting under. I don't see eggs though, so I think I got wrigglers.
> I can't get good look at the nest now. He is still tending it so makes me think he didn't eat the eggs.


WOW. I have never heard of this before. That is something new.

I also had the same worry. I thought he had eaten the eggs, but I decided to wait since he was still adding quite a few bubbles. It is a plesant surprise.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah I have never read of anyone elses male moving the whole nesting site with the nest. Granted it is a floating leaf. but it is as long as he is and twice as wide @[email protected] 
Well means we both have wriggles at roughly the same time haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That's great!

Any recent updates on the wrigglers?


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

While I still can't see anything my male has once again moved the nest. This time leaving his old leaf in the wake of moving the nest half way across the tank. The fact that he has blown bubbles underneath this new leaf and is guarding it tells me that there has to be some wrigglers. He wouldn't be, being so watchful if he had eaten the eggs.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well I finally got my log up...

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=94828

Also I'm sure you will see your wrigglers soon.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Here is hoping haha.

Awesome! I have it subscribed and will be reading it when I awaken. For now I will force myself to sleep again.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So I am starting to get worried.
I see no wrigglers at all. I have not seen a sign of fry or eggs for approx 24 hours.
The male is still in the tank and is mostly tending the nests. He is currently relaxing on some plants near the new nesting site. Should I be worried? I would think I would be able to see the fry by now. The water is extremely dark from tannins though. Three IAL will do that. What do you all suggest? I was thinking of waiting till the weekend, by then I should have free swimming and be seeing some fry.
I am really worries that maybe the male got upset and when he moved the nest he ate the fry. I would hate to have to recondition and respawn them, but they are a proven pair now so I know they will mate.

This weekend I am planning on picking up a bunch of new plants, snail, and setting up the next breeding tank getting it ready to go. I figure I might as well get ready to spawn my blue marble pair.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Newly hatched fry is very tiny. It's hard to see in clear water let alone dark water.

Look what daddy is doing. If he is tending to something, there should be fry. He might have reduced the numbers but there should be some left.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree with indjo. Newly hatched fry can really make you wonder if there is anything there. I was worried a bit at first as well since I couldnt see any eggs and when I came eye level with the bubblenest, I sad the tails on the bottom. Not really wriggling but straight tails.

Try using a magnifying glass and a very bright florescent flashlight to shine under the nest. You will be able to tell for sure if the water isnt black. A nice dark colored water is fine, but i would suggest by next week, say around wednesday to add water and let it stay a small amount of tannin in the water to see the fry and know if you are to feed them yet.

Good Luck!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I guess I am just super paranoid. This is my first spawn after all. 
I have been using magnification and havent seen anything. I guess I will be stressed till I see fry with my own eyes haha.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

LOL. This is your first spawn. I've done tons of spawns and I still get paranoid if I don't see fry. Btw, I'm in the same shoes - waiting on fry to hatch. Thus far I can't see anything when I'm suppose to see tons of free swimmers..... the tanks has dark glass floor and back and the sides are covered so the tank looks quite dark.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Oh dear! I'm sure every breeder has gone through the same thing. It is truly nerve racking and very annoying when you realize you must recondition and wait another week for the pair to be ready.

Im sure you are in the place of First time "jitters". As indjo said, even more experience breeders have the nerves take a toll on them for a while. Its the qualities of breeding.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep, well as I said I will give up to a week, see if I can see them, put in Vinger Eels, and multiworm culture. See if they are eating. I will recondition my pair during this time. At the very least I will be helping them recover from this. My female is great just her anal fin is a bit torn, and a few scale are missing. Over all she got off very light.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Should I remove my male? He isn't tending nest at the moment, all he is doing since I got home today is sleeping on plants. He looks like he is dead, but he isn't I had to check once to make sure. So the question is do I leave him in and hope for the best, or remove him and start feeding him more live foods and helping him recover up.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

At this point I would say to keep him in there for another day or so. Also stay away from the take for a little while. I tend to try to find everything wrong with it by looking and observing too hard. So I think you may be doing this.

Try to occupy yourself and check on them every 1 1/2-2 hours or so. It will be easier for you that way. I know it is your first spawn and everything, but try to calm yourself if possible LOL.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Okay then haha, I know I may be paranoid. I just wanted to make sure he is doing alright. I would hate to have no fry and find out I killed my male by not pulling him sooner. Besides that I am perfectly relaxed.
Believe it or not I am finding space to set up another tank and actually getting ready to breed my blue marble pair. (Which will be several weeks or so till I am ready to)
I have had a fire lit under me. I have lost some of my stunning boys who I wanted to breed from the moment I got them. I don't want to miss my chance to breed some of the others. I nearly lost my DTHM boy Thoth, so when he is recovered I will be breeding him with my cambo HM girl Motoko. I nearly lost her to a serious culmnarious infection. It actually took her eye.

But yeah, I know I am paranoid haha.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well I think that with being a new breeder, for both the fish and the human, it is very stressful even after breeding many pairs and raising many spawns.

I heard that you had a big infection and sicknesses of the bettas. I'm glad you are helping them recover and hopefully they will be ready in those few weeks.

I can't wait f0r the DTHM pair!


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## bettasusa (Nov 1, 2011)

Amphibianite, this log is amazing! very well kept! Even though I haven't done one yet, it seems like you've got it! As for a few tips. Micros like warmth, I like to put mine on top of the fridge close to the back where the heat radiates. You will see your micros swarm. Get Frozen BBS instead of live and always offer them with the Micros. Many people will tell you NOT to do water changes for at least two weeks. Well guess what, I do water changes starting the first few days after the babies are free swimming! Do them daily! and watch ur babies grow literally overnight! Keep dad in there until they are free swimming nicely, you can feed him a bit too but I usually will not do this because he should have been conditioned, (nice n fat) before the spawning. Next spawn, don't use plants, nothing at all. But do get some 2 liter bottles and fill them with aquarium water and put them in the sunlight, (on a window sill), closed tight. Let them get sunlight and when you notice the babies add about a quarter of this, (should be green by then). This will feed them for a little while, especially the older fry who will be free swimming hours before the last eggs laid. But remember, the most you should go without a water change is 1 week! Get them accustomed to water changes, only the strongest and healthiest you want to survive and this will prove that. The thais get their babies grown in 2.5-3 months, why because they know how to literally change 90% of the water, practically if not daily. Keep 1 gallon jugs ready to go from overnight, and make sure ur heater is working in good order. No need to worry about the water temp being exactly the same when doing the changes. The babies won't get shocked if you do it gradually through the air line tubing. 

My way of changing for tiny babies is like this. Sponge filter, add extra tubing to the filter and and do a gravity suction from there. No fry will be taken away, no hassles. Then gallon by gallon, just use gravity method again with air tubing and refill. Week 1, 1 gallon take out, 1.5 gallon add back in. week 2, 2 gallon take out, 3 gallon add back in. week three top to 90% changes and watch those babies grow by the morning! If you need a video I will show you what Im talking about, no problem. Lui

P.S. Love the Amphibianite name! Awesome!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yep I can not wait to get Thoth up to full health and ready to breed. He really is one my pride and joys.

Thank you for the advice BettaUsa ^_^. I really do appreciate it. 
I will have to try some of that, sounds like it will be a great way to what works best for me. I love the tips you gave. I crave every bit of info I can get on this subject haha.

Thanks about the name haha. I was looking for something unique


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So what are the chances of fry when the male is not tending any nest at all? All my male has done today is rest in 1 of 3 spots up on the plants so he doesnt have to move to breathe. He isn't acting at all like he was when there was eggs even when I believed I had wrigglers.
Could I have free swimming and he is saying he is done with his job?

How do I proceed from this point when I have no evidence of fry in the tank, and an exhausted and hungry male
I plan on pulling the male roughly noon tomorrow to get him in a recovery tank.
Time to feed him lots of live food to get his strength back.


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## bettasusa (Nov 1, 2011)

I have had this happen on a few occasions. If he is not tending the nest and you know for sure that he isn't, take him out. He is stressed. Babies will survive is he hasn't eaten them. Maybe not all of them but some will. You could also lower the water level to about 2 inches to give them a better chance. No worries, in a few weeks, he will be ready again. experience makes better parents.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If the male isn't tending to anything and is mostly motionless, take him out because he may be stressed. He needs to be quarantined because it may compromise his general immune system. Hope I'm wrong about this.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thats what I thought. I will be pulling him in just a little bit. after I set up the QT.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm sorry it didn't work out, better luck next time.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks Tpocicat, but hey its a learning experience. Every thing happens to teach us something when it comes to these fish. So now I know something new and am even more ready for next time.

Query - How long should I treat the tank like there is fry in there? Mind you I have not seen a single one after the eggs vanished/hatched.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Okay so last spawn update for this log. I have removed the male and in the process of having to sadly chase him everywhere in the tank I have determined that there are no fry in the tank. I have looked quite literally everywhere in the tank. I will keep the tank set up for another day or so in hopes I am wrong.
I will be beginning to build them back up to full health then recondition. I will try this pair again in about a month.

Until then I am going to get my next pair ready to breed and another tank set up.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

It's all good when there is something learned. Best of luck next time.


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