# fin/tail biting??



## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Housing 
What size is your tank? *5 gal*
What temperature is your tank? *80 F*
Does your tank have a filter? *yes*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? *no*
Is your tank heated? *yes*
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *none*

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? *Omega One flakes*
How often do you feed your betta fish? *1-2x/ day*

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? *1-2x/week*
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? *30-50%*
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Aqueon betta plus*, *Stress Zyme*

Water Parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 8.2


Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *yes*
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *yes*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? *yesterday*
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *quarantine- aq salt*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? *no, but he's new (only have had him for 3 months)*
How old is your fish (approximately)? *?? 4-5 months??*



I have a male VT in a 5-gallon tank and just went away for the long weekend. When I got back the last 3rd of his tail is split/tattered looking (though not discolored/black) and half of his dorsal fin is gone. Looks like it was sheared or bitten off. This happened in 3 days and he was fine before then. Now he is much quieter (normally _very_ active- hardly ever sitting still) and I have moved him to a bowl dosed with aquarium salt.

I assume this is tail or fin biting since it happened so fast??? He has been in the same tank with silk plants for 2-1/2 months now... this never happened before.
Water parameters are fine except that my tap water is very high PH (8.2). can high PH cause tail biting or stress??


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Could he have caught it in the filter? 

Can you post a photo?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Here is a picture of the bottom of the filter (intake) in the tank he was in:
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k539/peeptoad/DSCN3369A_zps38d268aa.jpg

He's been in that tank for about 2 months and never even went near the filter (normally), but who knows?

He's in a bowl with aquarium salt right now and the photos I just tried to get were terrible, but the best I can describe it is his dorsal fin looks like it was either half bitten off or half sheared off. His tail looks ragged (but is not black/discolored, even at the edges) as if it was chewed by another fish, except that he's the only fish in there. It looks a bit like fin rot where the "webbing" of the tail is receding...but without the black discoloration.

I actually thought he was going to be dead when I woke up this morning. Last night when I got home he was lying on the bottom of the bowl, barely moving and wouldn't eat at all. This morning he looks _slightly_ better, though still not good. He ate a tiny bit of food and is moving around the bowl more.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Will bump at the request of another poster, with some additional information:



peeptoad said:


> I made a thread earlier this week, but didn't get any responses... I can bump that other thread so I don't clutter up this one.
> To answer your questions here (and then I will bump the other one):
> 
> 
> ...


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would put him in his 5 gall tank so you can maintain the temperature. Don't put anything in the tank just the heater and the thermometer so you can monitor the temperature. Do not use the filter. Try to increase temperature gradually to 76 for now and then will see how he doing. Increase the temperature gradually about 1-2* in an hour. Also what you can do -heat the 5 gall tank up to 78* and put him in the container and let it float in the 5 gall heated tank. You can use also his hospital tank . If his hospital tank is heavy and sinking you can buy see through tupperware and stick the sides of it to the tank walls. Do what ever is easier for you , so you can do daily water changes(100%) Continue with the salt, don't stop. Increase the salt to 3tsp per gallon. Usually bettas scratching when they have external parasites.
Does he looks like the has white spots or looks like he has sprinkles with the salt? Or did he look like that before you treated him with salt? 
Does he has white fluffy, cottony like strings or patches on his body ?
Shine the light on the betta’s body is it looks like it is covered with a fine gold or rust mist?
Is it possible for you to post the picture?
Sorry i have to log out but if you can give more details so we can figure out what is going on. I have problem with my computer and hopefully will figure out why,but i did ask someone else to help you.


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Sounds like tail biting. My betta started tail biting after I had him for a few months and he continues to do it. :-? Anyway, his fins were shredded-looking and then he would bite them short. He also bites his dorsal fin, anal fin, and ventral fins! He lets them grow back to a certain length- until they get too heavy- and then he trims them again. He's the betta in my user pic. His tail used to be epic like that but now it's always short and uneven.
Bettas tail bite for a few reasons- their fins are simply too heavy, boredom, or stress.
I have a feeling your fish might have been bored or stressed because no one was home for a few days.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Here is a picture where the rot on his pelvic fins is pretty clear. His dorsal and tail fins are not discolored/blackened like his pelvics (they are by far in the worst shape), but there is a chunk missing from his dorsal and the webbing in his tail is receding (though, again, not discolored.

apologies for the size of this pic. I took a quick one when I got home just now.









As for your other questions ANHEL123, I cannot see any white spots on him (ich). I just put a flashlight on him to check. I also cannot see anything that looks like gold rust or dust (though his coloration is a bit odd as you can see in the pic- his head is different color than his body, but he was that way when I got him). Definitely no fluffy, white patches either... it's possible I don;t know exactly what to look for though.

And thank you for your help... I really appreciate it.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Oh, I also did just increase the amount of salt and I will attempt to "float" the hospital tank (or something) in his tank to warm it. I am a little leery of doing this right now, mainly because I have to go out of town again this weekend (tomorrow overnight just one night and I'll be back on Sunday) and I don;t want him to re-injure himself (if that's what happened last weekend).


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

He is not really looking as bad as i was think he is .
If you are leaving tomorrow you really can just lower the water in his 5 gall tank and just very gradually increase the temperature to 76*. I think it better this way at least you can maintain the temperature. Do not use the filter. If you can ,do it today so you can check it tomorrow and make sure the heater holding steady temperature. Or you can even do it tomorrow. Make sure you acclimate him to the new water temperature slowly. Do you need instructions on acclimation. You need acclimate him to make sure you don't shock him with drastic temperature difference.

He don't look like he has velvet or ich . I was thinking that he might has it because you wrote that he is scratching his body. 

About aquarium salt you using it for 5 days i would continue to use it since you saying that he is lethargic. And increase it to 2tsp/gall with daily water change. Use it for 14 days.

You saying he is spitting out the food. Omega is the best recommended food on this forum but pellets not flakes though. Flakes are bad in general, and Omega flakes are just terrible IMO. I bought it once and those huge flakes , even when you crushed them are not really appetizing at all. If you have a chance buy Omega pellets or NLS pellets. And i would really recommend to buy frozen blood worms that are have a lot of protein in it and really good for the immune system.
The only problem that NLS are not floating pellets and sink to the bottom really fast , so if he is refusing them it will be difficult to feed him with NLS. Although with daily water changes it really ok though.
http://www.bigalspets.com/betta-formula-1-mm-semi-floating-pellets-50-g.html

http://www.petco.com/product/116563...ne-_-1483889&gclid=CIX0xdL3t7kCFYSf4Aod01wA9Q


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> He is not really looking as bad as i was think he is .
> If you are leaving tomorrow you really can just lower the water in his 5 gall tank and just very gradually increase the temperature to 76*. I think it better this way at least you can maintain the temperature. Do not use the filter. If you can ,do it today so you can check it tomorrow and make sure the heater holding steady temperature. Or you can even do it tomorrow. Make sure you acclimate him to the new water temperature slowly. Do you need instructions on acclimation. You need acclimate him to make sure you don't shock him with drastic temperature difference.
> 
> He don't look like he has velvet or ich . I was thinking that he might has it because you wrote that he is scratching his body.
> ...


OK, thanks for your advice. I will do what you said with his tank (lower water/gradually acclimate him to temp difference), and continue the salt for another week (he's already been on salt for almost a week). Do you think it's ok if I give him a dose of Maracyn 2 if the salt doesn't seem to help? (despite the apparent "mildness" of the pic I posted I am starting to become concerned about his pelvic fins. One of them is rotted almost up to his body at this point).

About the food: I had a heck of a time getting this fish to eat when I first got him. He actually did not eat a stitch of food for the first 10-14 days I got him because I insisted that he eat Omega One pellets, which I know are among the best. He wouldn't even look at the pellets. So I tried a different brand, but he had the same reaction. It was only when I switched to Omega One _flakes _that he began to eat... so I stuck with those. He even still spits out the larger, "tougher" flakes, so he seems really picky about eating in general.
I will try bloodworms though because I think he would eat those (since they may be softer?). I read on another site they were no good because they could bring parasites into the water, but I will buy some over the weekend and see if he will eat them since you say they might help him.

Again, many thanks for you help...this fish was a gift and is my first, so I'm kind of in a "speed learning" fish hospital course here.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Forgot to say , when you add salt 2tsp/gall make sure it pre mixed and dissolved (no salt crystals left)before you put it in the tank.
Blood worms try to feed and if he is not eating them then try to soak them in the fresh squeeze garlic juice. You can use garlic press and just put the blood worm in that garlic press it also good for the immune system and people saying it will stimulate his appetite. And even if he is eating them you can still try to soak them in the garlic.
Flakes, when you give them make sure you really crushed them up to the very little, tiny pieces . I know you probobly doing it.

Medications : Make dose of the salt 2 tsp/gall and next change increase to 3 tsp/gall try for another 3 -4 dose if he is not better then i think you need medications. 
Is he really lethargic?
I would recommend to use Triple sulfa if you don't have allergy to sulfa or Maracyn plus, or combination both Maracyn and Maracyn II (one is for gram positive bacteria and one for gram negative)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

He doesn't look bad in the photo, but you said that one of his pelvic fins is lost almost to his body? What about his other fins - how quickly are they deteriorating?

You don't want the infection to reach his body. Usually, I don't recommend antibiotics for fin rot. But in aggressive cases, or where the fins are almost gone to the body, then I recommend using antibiotics. 

Most aquatic infections, including fin rot, are due to gram negative bacterial infections. I suggest trying any one of the following:

*Maracyn 2 (minocycline) *- a good gram negative antibiotic. The downsides are that it's harsh on the internal organs, and it's been around awhile so some bacteria are resistant to it.

*API Furan 2 *or *Bifuran* or *Jungle Fungus Clear* - these all contain the same gram negative antibiotic. Unfortunately, I've started to hear that there's some resistance to this now, too.

Anhel suggested *API Triple Sulfa* or *Maracyn Plus*. These are broad spectrum sulfa drugs, which means they're effective against a wide variety of bacteria. So this would be a good option if you want something effective against many different types of bacteria. (Don't use these if you're allergic to sulfa drugs though.)

I wouldn't use Maracyn (erithromycin) right now. It's effective against gram positive bacteria. But most cases of fin rot aren't caused by gram positive bacteria, so I'd opt for one of the other ones listed above first.

Also, I don't use Aquarium salt and antibiotics at the same time. Both are eliminated by the kidneys, and I feel using both will put too much stress on the them. This can lead to other problems, such as fluid retention, bloating, buoyancy issues, etc.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Forgot to say , when you add salt 2tsp/gall make sure it pre mixed and dissolved (no salt crystals left)before you put it in the tank.
> Blood worms try to feed and if he is not eating them then try to soak them in the fresh squeeze garlic juice. You can use garlic press and just put the blood worm in that garlic press it also good for the immune system and people saying it will stimulate his appetite. And even if he is eating them you can still try to soak them in the garlic.
> Flakes, when you give them make sure you really crushed them up to the very little, tiny pieces . I know you probobly doing it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice on the medications. He is not really lethargic, but he appears somewhat lethargic to me based on his previous demeanor (normally very active). In vet speak he is QAR (quiet, alert, and responsive), which is what I consider to be a step up from lethargic.
I think I will hold off on the Maracyn 2 until I finish another week with the salt. If there is no improvement from the salt, then I'll try the M2.

Still battling "food issues" with this fish... I picked up bloodworms and he just spits them out (like everything else). He does seem more "off feed" than he did before I left yesterday morning. I'll pick up some garlic tomorrow and try soaking them, but he seems to be a high maintenance fish in regards to food.

One other note: yesterday morning when I changed his water before leaving I thought, heck let me just check my tap water to see what kind of readings I get. Turns out my tap water with nothing in it is high in ammonia! (Using an API Fresh. Master test kit it read 1.0 ppm for virgin tap water). I add conditioner to his water anyway, but I wasn't expecting _that_...


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> He doesn't look bad in the photo, but you said that one of his pelvic fins is lost almost to his body? What about his other fins - how quickly are they deteriorating?
> 
> You don't want the infection to reach his body. Usually, I don't recommend antibiotics for fin rot. But in aggressive cases, or where the fins are almost gone to the body, then I recommend using antibiotics.
> 
> ...


Thanks, 'Fishlets. I think I will wait until I am done with the salt TX and then try the Maracyn 2 (Ialready have some) if I see no improvement from the salt. I might also give him 24 hours or so in between salt and maracyn to give his kidneys a break, but I don't want to leave that blackened fin too long without treatment. (It is not quite up to his body, but it is getting rather close for comfort).


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## Morten (Sep 5, 2013)

You could try tempting your lil' guy with some frozen brine shrimp. My VT hasn't said no to them, yet, and he spits almost everything else out. He won't even look at freeze dried blood worms or daphnia (I was afraid of buying frozen ones for that same reason), but seems to be partial to shrimp. 

This is in case he still refuses to eat. Something is better than nothing, I think, and this is what is currently working for my picky eater... hope he doesn't change his mind tomorrow.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

About frozen bw : i never fed my bettas with frozen food , started just recently. At first a few of my bettas didn't really appretiate them , but as i kept trying they eventually ate it. 
Ammonia: If you can try to find Prime by Seachem , its the water conditioner that is most advised to use if you have ammonia in the water, because its turns the ammonia into ammonium for at least 24 hrs , and its less toxic .. So you can try that and see if you can lower the ammonia in the water. Some people get confused with the dosage instructions . So any bottle size that you buy is 2 drops per gallon. I put even 4 drops so don't afraid to ovedose if you put extra drop , may be it will help with ammonia.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Ammonia: If you can try to find Prime by Seachem , its the water conditioner that is most advised to use if you have ammonia in the water, because its turns the ammonia into ammonium for at least 24 hrs , and its less toxic .. So you can try that and see if you can lower the ammonia in the water. Some people get confused with the dosage instructions . So any bottle size that you buy is 2 drops per gallon. I put even 4 drops so don't afraid to ovedose if you put extra drop , may be it will help with ammonia.


I will look into the Seachem Prime... is it only effective temporarily? (i.e. will I need to continue to do daily water changes if the ammonia is only converted for 24 hrs?).


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Oh, another thing I meant to ask:
Because there is ammonia in my tap water and the pH is fairly high (8.2) would it be feasible to mix distilled water and conditioned tap water (50-50 ratio)? I know distilled alone isn't good for fish, but would a combination of them reduce both the pH and ammonia safely? (and I did just order the Seachem Prime from Amazon, so I'll begin using that when I get it).


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Good question i would wait for LittleBlueFishlets to help. Not sure how better to do it since i don't cycle the tank and you are cycling your 5 gall. I don't think it good idea to mix the distilled water , but you can try to mix the spring water and see if it will helps. Also bettas are very adjustable to the pH. A high pH is really okay for all but a crowntail betta (in high pH, hard water, their fins curl). 
But your main concern now is to lower the ammonia rather than pH. And i was thinking with frequent water changes and Prime you might able to do it.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

So your tap water has 1.0 ppm ammonia straight out of the faucet, and a pH of 8.2? :-(

You can:

*1) use a conditioner that temporarily neutralizes ammonia*, such as Prime. (There are other brands that do this as well.)

These work by converting ammonia (bad) to ammonium (not bad). But they only do this for about 48 hours. 

Since they only work for 48 hours, you either need to redose the conditioner every other day, or physically remove the ammonia-tainted water and replace it with better water.

*2) Lower the pH via natural means such as tannins.*

At a lower pH, ammonia will convert to ammonium on its own. This is good.

At a higher pH, such as your 8.2, the reverse occurs. Ammonium converts over to ammonia. This is bad.

You can add things to the water that leach tannins. Tannins have some antimicrobial properties (this is good), and naturally lower the water pH (also good).

Tannin sources include:
a) Indian Almond Leaves (IAL), which are found in Indonesia, where bettas come from. They can be ordered through eBay. (Do a search for Amy. Lots of people on this forum have recommended her.)
b) Oak Leaves (OL), which are common in much of North America. Be sure the leaves are pesticide-free. Rinse them off to remove dirt, and place the in the tank. They'll slowly leach tannins into the water.
c) Wood such as Mopani Wood, which can usually be purchased at petstores.
d) In a pinch, people have even used decaffeinated *teas*! The tan/brown color from tea is due to tannins.

*3) Add bottled drinking or spring water.* Be sure these say something such as "minerals added for flavor."

You don't want to use distilled water (unless your own water is hard). Distilled water lacks the electrolytes needed to maintain good health. 

I prefer to use drinking water, or spring water, that specifically states it contains dissolved minerals (salts). These provide the necessary electrolytes.

Also, test for ammonia on the bottled water too. It's possible that the manufacturer disinfects the water with ammonia or chloramines. If this is the case, using that particular brand won't help you.

*4) Cycling your tank*.... is a whole different world though. There needs to be ammonia present, in order to begin the nitrogen cycle. I'm not particularly familiar with the process, as I don't cycle my tanks. If no one on this forum addresses this aspect, I would ask on the Bowls/Habitats forum. The people there are cycling experts. 

How is he doing today? Any better?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> So your tap water has 1.0 ppm ammonia straight out of the faucet, and a pH of 8.2? :-(
> 
> You can:
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot LittleBlueFishlets. This is very helpful information.
Unfortunately, yes, my tap water seems to be high in ammonia, high pH, and is relatively hard (prob. due to high pH and mineral content). 
I am actually not cycling a tank right now as I have my little guy in a 2-gal bowl without a filter (but with a heater set in the 76-78 range). I really think the filter current was causing him stress. I wish I could say he was doing better, but he isn't. He hasn't eaten anything since Sunday afternoon, but he isn't completely lethargic either. He has periods where he stays on the bottom of the bowl and other times he swims/darts around (though not with as much energy as usual).
I currently have him in a 50-50 mix of distilled and conditioned tap water, however I have not received the Prime yet (it is on order, so hopefully in the next day or two). I panicked due to the ammonia in the water, so I mixed in the distilled. I imagine he is still getting some electrolytes since he is in some tap water. Not ideal, but it will have to do until the Prime gets here.

I think going forward (if he survives this ordeal) I am going to keep him in the 2-gal, heated bowl using the Prime to condition the tap H2O. And I will probably just re-dose it several times a week to keep the ammonia converted, and do a 100% water change weekly.

I also plan on dosing him with the Maracyn 2 maybe this weekend (still have aq. salt in the water right now- 2 tsp/gallon). 

I hope he makes it through this- I'm starting to get depressed because I can tell he is in some distress (not eating, not acting normally). But he also does not appear to be on death's door knocking either.
Wish I had known about the contaminants in my tap water before getting a fish, but oh well.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

sorry he is not doing good I didn't know he stopped eating. Does he eats anything? How about those flakes that he ate before? And he still refusing frozen food? 
Is his tail the same or worse? 
Are you still able to maintain the temperature in his tank?
You saying that he is darts around. Is it recently that he does it? Do you see anything new on his body, like white dots? Is it looks like he is scratching on objects?
So sorry he is not doing good , but do not blame yourself and don't be depressed. At least he is loved and in the clean water which is more that he would get in the store. And it not because you doing something wrong we all have sick bettas and go through that , even most experienced people has sick bettas. Any pet can get sick no matter how right/good care you give them.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> sorry he is not doing good I didn't know he stopped eating. Does he eats anything? How about those flakes that he ate before? And he still refusing frozen food?
> Is his tail the same or worse?
> Are you still able to maintain the temperature in his tank?
> You saying that he is darts around. Is it recently that he does it? Do you see anything new on his body, like white dots? Is it looks like he is scratching on objects?
> So sorry he is not doing good , but do not blame yourself and don't be depressed. At least he is loved and in the clean water which is more that he would get in the store. And it not because you doing something wrong we all have sick bettas and go through that , even most experienced people has sick bettas. Any pet can get sick no matter how right/good care you give them.


As of this morning he was refusing all food. Once in awhile he might take a flake and spit it back out (and I do crumble them into tiny pieces), but now he doesn't even look at them when I put them in the tank. His tail and dorsal fin actually look the same (no worse than they were before). There is no black discoloration on them at all. It's his pelvic fins that I'm worried about and I think at this point he may have early stages of body rot. His pelvics are receding back to his body rather quickly now.
I am maintaining the temp. in the 2-gal bowl he is in. He is at a steady 76-78 right now.
The darting behavior is random. He doesn't do it a lot, but occasionally. He also looks "normal" to me sometimes, but only for a short period of time. Last night he was just laying on the bottom and he didn't even move when I nudged him with the edge of the net. It makes me so sad. I know it's not my fault, but I hate seeing him like this. I'm going to change his water tonight when I go home, but I fear it won't make any difference.

I wish I knew what happened to him when I was away on Labor Day weekend, because that's when this all started... :-(


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would treat him with medications if he is that lethargic. The problem is that i completely forgot that Maracyns drug does not working at high ph though. Is there any way you can go to the store and exchange it ? You can find may be one of the one LBF recommended in her post 14? So sorry it just came to my mind about ph
While you don't treat him with med's continue aq salt and i would increase it to 3tsp/gall. And he definitely needs medications.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> I would treat him with medications if he is that lethargic. The problem is that i completely forgot that Maracyns drug does not working at high ph though. Is there any way you can go to the store and exchange it ? You can find may be one of the one LBF recommended in her post 14? So sorry it just came to my mind about ph
> While you don't treat him with med's continue aq salt and i would increase it to 3tsp/gall. And he definitely needs medications.


The pH of the water is actually lower now that I diluted with distilled water. It is in the 7-7.5 range. Do you think that would work? If not I will try to exchange it and I will look into the other med.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I will try to exchange it.Because it said that it not going to work in the pH above i think 7.2.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

peeptoad how its going , i am really worry;(


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

If he still with you get Triple sulfa , or API Furan ,Jungle Fungus Clear.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How its going?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Sorry i have been busy last couple days. Posting this from my phone actually. I managed to get the ph of Jedi's water down slightly by adding a bit more distilled to the mix. Last night I dosed him with the maracyn 2, and i did 100% water change this morning with second dose of m2. I have to say that his behavior after just 24 hours on the m2 has improved a lot. His fins still look terrible but he is much more active and ate most of his breakfast today. Going to continue with m2 for 5 days like is says to, with 100% water change each time. Keeping my fingers crossed because he is not out of the woods yet. At least i have good news to report though! Thank you for all your help- i will update when he is done with meds. Still just hoping for the best...


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh i am happy to hear it. Make sure you put right dosage every time you change the water though. Some medications And acclimate him slowly. Please give us update


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Oh i am happy to hear it. Make sure you put right dosage every time you change the water though. Some medications And acclimate him slowly. Please give us update


Will do. I just got home from being out overnight last night and he ate every piece of food I put in the tank, so keeping fingers crossed for him.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

I have another quick question (or maybe a couple):

1. How long after treating fin rot does it typically take to see new fin growth?

2. I am using Maracyn 2 and the instructions say not to use it for more than the 5-day course. Is it safe to use is longer? I have read a couple of other places that it should be used until new fin growth is visible (at least a few mm or 1/8" new growth).


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

When is the last day of the Maracyn? And actually i am curious myself if you can continue for another course of it, so lets wait for LittleBlueFishlets to answer your question.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> When is the last day of the Maracyn? And actually i am curious myself if you can continue for another course of it, so lets wait for LittleBlueFishlets to answer your question.


The last day of the Maracyn course is today... I will wait for LittleBlueFishlets to chime in.

Thank you


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hi Peeptoad,

_1. How long after treating fin rot does it typically take to see new fin growth?_

It depends on the fish, its overall health, and the severity of the rot. 

As long as the fins aren't deteriorating further, I would consider them "healed." It can take time to see new growth. 

I have guy that started to get new growth within days. I have another that needed closer to three months. (He's my high-maintenance fish, and has some health issues.)

_2. I am using Maracyn 2 and the instructions say not to use it for more than the 5-day course. Is it safe to use is longer? _

I wouldn't continue using it unless there was an active infection. (Ie: the fins were still rotting away.)

Medications are harsh on their systems. Maracyn 2 puts a lot of stress on the kidneys. Using it for long periods of time can start to lead to other, unintended, problems - such as kidney problems. 

If he still has deteriorating fins after completing the 5 day treatment of Maracyn 2, I would make a decision:
a) If the Maracyn 2 was helping, but there was still an active infection and I thought it just needed a few more days of treatment, then I might do another cycle.
b) If the Maracyn 2 didn't help at all, I would probably try a different medication.
c) (or I would make some other decision, if the above didn't apply.)

_I have read a couple of other places that it should be used until new fin growth is visible (at least a few mm or 1/8" new growth)._

Do you have a source or reference for this? I've never heard of it.....

I wouldn't continue using a harsh medication beyond the point where it cured the infection. New fin growth can take quite awhile to show up, especially in a fish that's been stressed (by a new tank, an illness, etc).

IMO, treat for one cycle (5 days). Then reassess the situation. 

If his fins aren't getting worse, then I would stop the antibiotic and just monitor him. As long as no additional rot appears, I would just wait and keep watching for new growth.

But, personally, I wouldn't use more medications unless I saw signs of an active infection or further rot.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Hi Peeptoad,
> 
> _1. How long after treating fin rot does it typically take to see new fin growth?_
> 
> ...


Thank you! This is all very helpful. I did another water change last night without the M2, so I think I will just try to keep his water as clean as possible and hope to see new growth soon. His pelvic fins have always looked a little strange to me (since I got him), they are very dark blue, with lighter color on the inside part, but I think this may just be normal for him. The fins are not receding to his body anymore, so I think the rot is not active right now- he just has some blackened tissue leftover from the infection.

The info I got about the fin growth and the medication just came from a google search. There was another messageboard, someone's blog, and maybe one other site I found that on, but I would have to look again.

Thanks again LBF! You and ANHEL123 were a big help!!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Just wondering if he still refusing frozen food? It would really nice if he would it it, its will help to strength his immune system


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Just wondering if he still refusing frozen food? It would really nice if he would it it, its will help to strength his immune system


Unfortunately, yes, he is still refusing everything except for the Omega One flake food. Once I could tell he was feeling better I tried the Omega One pellets and the bloodworms again and he still has no interest in either of them. He _is_ devouring the flakes when I put them in the tank though...so at least he is eating.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sound as a good plan. Keep us updated


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

*Omega One Betta flakes are fine. *

(I use Omega One pellets just because they're easier to count out and are less messy in the tank. But there's nothing wrong with Omega One flakes. They provide excellent nutrition.)

Omega One Betta Buffet Flakes - Ingredients:
Whole Salmon, Black Cod, Seafood Mix (Including Krill, Rockfish, & Shrimp), Wheat Flour, Wheat Gluten, Fresh Kelp, Lecithin, Astaxanthin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Phosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Natural and Artificial Colors, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Tocopherol (Preservative), Ethoxyquin (Preservative). 

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein (min) 43%, crude fat (min) 12%, crude fiber (max) 2%, moisture (max) 8.5%, ash (max) 8%, phosphorus (min) .5%, omega 3 (min) 2%, omega 6 (min) 1%.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Well, unfortunately the rot is already back... argh!
I changed his water out (removed the antibiotic) last Thursday night, and by Saturday morning (when I had planned on doing a partial change anyway) his dorsal fins were receding and blackened at the tips. This was the fin that previously was not affected, but it is the fin that he either tore off or bit off while I was away Labor Day weekend. Just 36 hours out of the antibiotic caused this... kind of infuriating! 
Anyway, otherwise he seems fine: he's active and eating. I did put more of the maracyn 2 in his tank, to hopefully nip this in the bud. I also ordered online (couldn't find it in any stores near me) the API triple sulfa. That's supposed to arrive tomorrow and I'm going to give him a course of that. I'm thinking maybe the rot was advanced enough that the standard week-course of the M2 was not enough, OR perhaps there is some other type of bacteria that the M2 is not effective against...


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Can you remind us , is it second course of the Maracyn you doing?
Would you able to show close picture of his dorsal?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Can you remind us , is it second course of the Maracyn you doing?
> Would you able to show close picture of his dorsal?


Yes, this is the 2nd course of the Maracyn 2. I just tried to get some pictures, but he is way too active right now (a good sign I guess), and he hates the flash (I shone the flashlight to check the rot and he doesn't like that either).
Basically, on Saturday the tips of his dorsal fin were beginning to blacken and recede. It looks a lot like the textbooks cases of fin rot I have seen pictures of online. After just 24 hours in the M2 his dorsal fin actually looked better. As of Sunday night the blackened edges were less, though it is still ragged looking. 
I am thinking maybe the first course of M2 just wasn't enough to knock out the bacteria?? Or possibly different bacteria involved?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh yes then i guess continue, just like LittleBlueFishlets said if its helping then continue.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

How is he doing?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks for asking. He is doing fairly well, but not great. His behavior is good and he is eating, but his fins (specifically his pelvic) still look ragged, black and terrible (imo). His dorsal fin looks better since I did another course of the antibiotics (which ended yesterday).
Here is what he has had so far for treatment (other than very clean water, which I have been changing 100% every day or every other day):

2 weeks of 100% water changes daily and aquarium salt, which did absolutely nothing to help him.
1 course of Maracyn 2, lasting 5 days (big improvement with this)
36 hours in clean, unmedicated water and the fin rot came back
2 days more of Maracyn 2, then I switched to API Triple sulfa (waiting for order to arrive in mail)
1 full course of API TS (4 days total, per instructions, mild improvement)
100% water change.

So now he is on clean, unmedicated water that I treated with Seachem Prime.
I plan on monitoring and doing at least 1 50% water change and 1 100% water change per week, as long as he does not worsen. He is in a 2-gallon, unfiltered, heated (~78 degrees F) container. He seems to do better without the filter current.

Seem like a good plan? Any other suggestions?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Sounds like a good plan. Can you post a new photo so we can see how he looks?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Here are 2 pics. One is a closeup of a pic I posted previously (his pelvics still look pretty much the same), and another recent closeup. Sorry about the size and the second one is kind of poor. I stink at fish pics, lol. 
The rest of him looks pretty much fine right now. His dorsal and tail fin tips are a little curled and torn-looking, but their color is fine.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How he doing?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Hi ANHEL, he still seems fine to me (acting normally, eating like a pig). I have been keeping his water as clean as possible after the antibiotics. 
What do you think of his pelvic fins in the pics above? Does that black coloration just take some time to go away after fin rot?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Well clean water, good nutrients, and watch him closely, if there any behavior changes then you really have to worry about it. And you sure its not his normal coloration and its something that he develop while you have him?


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

I'm not sure the appearance of his pelvic fins is normal or not, to be honest... to me the tissue _seems_ to be abnormal due to its ragged appearance. I have seen necrotic tissue on other animals since I work in the veterinary field, but fish are new for me. It's possible it's just residual dead tissue I suppose. Maybe it will fall off or disappear at a certain point, but his pelvics have looked basically like that since I got him 3 months ago (except when he was very sick and they did recede closer to his body).

His behavior may be a better indicator of overall health anyway, and I definitely know what's normal for him in that area since he got so sick last month. I guess I will just continue to monitor and if his activity level does not drop and he's eating, then he is probably ok. He's been off antibiotics for about a week now and still seems healthy to me.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Completely agree with everything you saying. Give us update please


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Will do.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

He's definitely biting his tail (and perhaps other fins). I got home from work yesterday and his tail tip was sheared off neatly, straight across just like he got a hair cut. No sign of the piece of his tail in the tank so I assume he ate it?? (do they do this?)

I guess he will just be a high maintenance tail biter. I did a 100% water change last night and plan on changing out 50% on Monday (my usual water change schedule).

Otherwise he seems perfectly fine... so I guess just keeping clean water and changing up his environment once in awhile to reduce boredom may be best for now?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes the best is just keep the water clean to prevent infections. I am lucky because i had tail bitter who did it only about 6 -7 times in his life (he was 4 years old, he died 4 wks ago) . But i am reading on this forum that some bettas are really can do it even daily. 
People recommending to rearrange decor,some people use plastic bottle tops off soda bottles, if you have light in your tank may be try to see if its bother him, try to put a few toys outside of the tank so he can see it, may be move the tank location /angle . I personally didn't do a lot for my bitter. I had silk plant, i had 2 glass thermometers lol just to get him distracted, i had even a few suction cups to distract him . I also had a few toys outside of the tank. Betta might bite because he's bored,or because he's threatened by his tail and thinks it's another betta, or his tail is too heavy.


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## peeptoad (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks ANHEL. I do have stuff outside the tank for him to look at... I actually placed all the extra plants that I had from when he was in the bigger tank there and it gives him some extra cover. I also leave the lava lamp on occasionally... it moves and gives him something to look at. Plus I sometimes put a mirror up so he can get some aggression out (he really flares out, so I usually only leave it for 30 minutes and then remove it so he doesn't get too stressed). I think he might get bored honestly (or lonely) because I live alone and I am at work 8-10 hours a day. He reacts quite a bit to me when I first come home at night- he dances around like crazy when he sees me for the first time, and then calms down after that. 
Maybe I will try to re-arrange his interior décor more often to give him some novelty. Someone else was saying their betta plays with a pink pong ball floating on the water so maybe I will try that too.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh those cute bettas give us such a hard time


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