# Pitbulls. hated for no reason.



## Thebettaqueen

Well. I was recently at the North shore Animal league. ( I wanted to look around, since my dog was recently put down and she was recused from there.) and I was going around, and you know places like that. They have recused pitbulls in a majority of the kennels. So I went around, fell in love with a Shepherd/pitbull mix. A lady behind me, who was also looking at him. Groaned and said " Ugh. Pitbulls. Monsters are what they are.." And walked away. My heart shattered into a million pieces. How DARE she say something about such a sweet dog.

Now, a lot of people get this misconception about how 'Pitbulls are beast, that are dangerous!' When honeslty, they have not a clue about how great pets they can be. Yes, their breed is a powerful one, and with a careless owner they can be aggressive. It's not the dog's fault! It's the stupidity of a person that causes the behavior a lot of people see on TV ( Aspca and such) Pit bull fighting is a big part of the problem. People see this dogs that were TRAINED to do such a horrible thing such as fighting one another. It's not the dog's decision. Yet they're banded in some states? It's extremely sad. They deserve so much more respect. Heck, my own mother is terrified of the breed, and when my brother brought home a pitbull puppy, she had him give her away. Ugh.

So I guess what I'm trying to get to here, is that Pit bulls are a great breed and they need more love then the hatred they're receiving. ( This is also a rant I guess. That woman just got me off..)


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## kfryman

I can't believe people are like this either. We have two pitbull mixes, one has the sting build of a pit, the other has the slenderness of the rhodesion ridgeback (they are sisters). They are so sweeand want to play with children. They are also lap dogs, yeah, 60-70 pound dogs!

The only problem is that one is dog aggressive because my sister didn't socialize her, not the dog's fault though. She gets along with some dogs and doesn't with others.

The breed is definitely misunderstood and portrayed as killers by the media.


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## Bombalurina

Sadly, they are responsible for a fair number of dog attacks. What people don't seem to understand, though, is that "safe" breeds like labs are responsible for a far higher percentage. 

I love pits. I think they look magnificent and I hear they are vey loyal, but can sometimes have troubles with guarding instincts (not sharing their toys etc). I don't think the breed should be banned, but rather that people who can't care for them should be banned from owning them.


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## Olympia

hehe I watch north shore animal league stuff on animal planet :3
Pit bulls are not human aggressive at all. They do have natural dog aggression, but this is why you have to socialize them. They are banned where I live. My town is INSANE about them.. Some lady I heard about in my town had her genetically proven purebred STAFFIE put down because it LOOKED like a pitbull. It's so ridiculous.
German shepherds bite way more people than pits I believe. I've also heard of two cases of huskies killing young babies in Canada. But no one is giving "loyal, majestic German shepherds" or "cute fluffy huskies" a bad rep. Don't even get me started on chihuahuas biting people.


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## Aus

When my daughter was small, I watched two large pit bulls smash down a fence across the street from us to attack the little dachshund behind it. Before I could finish dialling animal control, they'd broken the fence and torn the poor little dog to pieces (I will never forget its screams ><). When they ran off, one still had a large chunk of dachshund in its mouth. 

My child and our own little dakkie were behind the same kind of fence, exactly opposite this house. But for sheer luck, that could've been my child torn apart, playing in her own yard. 

So yeah - after that, I've never been able to see pit bulls as "nice pets". It isn't just the media bs'ing about them being killers. It's what they were bred to do. Even in the hands of decent dog owners they are sometimes unexpectedly vicious. In the hands of an idiot, they can be lethal.

As for not being human-aggressive - a young boy who lived close to us in another house was mauled so badly by a pit bull while playing in a park that he required over 700 stitches. Like all aggressive breeds, they are more than capable of attacking a human.


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## Olympia

Aus said:


> When my daughter was small, I watched two large pit bulls smash down a fence across the street from us to attack the little dachshund behind it. Before I could finish dialling animal control, they'd broken the fence and torn the poor little dog to pieces (I will never forget its screams ><). When they ran off, one still had a large chunk of dachshund in its mouth.
> 
> My child and our own little dakkie were behind the same kind of fence, exactly opposite this house. But for sheer luck, that could've been my child torn apart, playing in her own yard.
> 
> So yeah - after that, I've never been able to see pit bulls as "nice pets". It isn't just the media bs'ing about them being killers. It's what they were bred to do. Even in the hands of decent dog owners they are sometimes unexpectedly vicious. In the hands of an idiot, they can be lethal.
> 
> As for not being human-aggressive - a young boy who lived close to us in another house was mauled so badly by a pit bull while playing in a park that he required over 700 stitches. Like all aggressive breeds, they are more than capable of attacking a human.


That's really horrible. Like your poor child must be scarred for life. I know I would have been.

I myself have been -harshly- bitten by 3 different dachshunds in my life. I'm scared of dachshunds. Not even kidding.

It really is all just what people experience. :/


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## MollyJean

I'm a proud pitbull mommy! We rescued the runt of a purebred pair because the woman couldn't sell her and was going to send her to the pound. Sadie is now 6 months old and the sweetest, most gentle dog I've ever had (I am most assuredly a cat person) and gets along with my cats, my kid and nieces and nephews. I don't think she could be mean if she tried. Our neighbor thought she was so cute when she was a month old, cooed over her.. right up until I said she was a pit. The neighbor stepped away like the poor puppy had the plague. Made me sooooo mad!

I've always been scared of Dalmatians.. My brother's rotty, Puppy, was killed by one, and the dalmatian stood guarding his body for hours.. it was so sickening. We had to get animal control to tranq the dalmatian.


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## Granberry

I don't know if there's anything more impressive to me than seeing a pitbull in obedience trials at a dog show. But I'm afraid all too often these dogs are not owned by responsible owners who train them to be submissive to humans and trained to obey. They're just owned by stupid people who want a strong dog with a bad reputation because they know it's controversial and they know it's a way to look tough. 

Is that the dog's fault? Of course not. But I don't know a way to control the people who own dogs, so sadly, I believe we have to control the dogs available for people to own. It is with regret that I would cast my vote in favor of some breed specific legislation, but I would absolutely do so unless there was a better idea on the ballot.


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## Pitluvs

I'm a proud Pitbull Mom, and really don't have time or want to even acknowledge the existence of those who bash my breed of choice... 

But to those who are supportive and see the truth behind such a misunderstood breed? Thank You. From the bottom of my heart. I have been actively involved in promoting proper Pitbull ownership for 9 years, fighting BSL and educating those who are smart enough to listen (and not closed minded). I've owned my Pitbull/Pointer mix for 9 years, and my Staffordshire for 8 years and they have been the most loyal dogs I have ever owned. I can't see me every owning any other breed, especially when there are so many needing proper homes with people who understand them. My 8 year old is dog aggressive, and I have never had any issues with her and other animals because I am responsible and I never put her in situations that set her up to fail. And what started the dog aggression? A Bull Mastiff attacked her one day while we were out for a walk, the Mastiff was loose and my dog was on leash. I personally would never blame a whole breed because of something I experienced with one dog. My dogs also live in a home with children, cats and small animals. No issues. Anyways, Pro Pitbull here


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## MollyJean

The only other option would be limiting the owners rather then the breeds, but I don't see that happen. Would open up a huge can of worms.

I had been taking Sadie to the flea market with me when it was nice, doing my best to socialize her, and it's a good chance to show others the breed can be gentle. But she just had knee surgery, so no trips for a while 

Every dog should be trained though. Properly socialized, too. Big, little, all of them. Should be mandatory. Like leash laws.


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## copperarabian

I've never had a pit bull but they are adorable and have incredible jaw muscles. Like any dog they need to be trained properly, so many people don't put in the work or train the dog in the wrong way and their dogs develop issues.


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## Aus

> Every dog should be trained though. Properly socialized, too. Big, little, all of them. Should be mandatory. Like leash laws.


Have you ever seen the owners of killer dogs on the news? "I can't believe my darling wuvvable Sweetums DID that! He was always SO gentle with the kids!"

You know... Until he ate one.

And that statement above makes a whole lot more sense to me than people denying the possibility that owning a dog breed created for the singular purpose of killing things dead MIGHT entail a risk.

Proper ownership laws. That is an awesome idea.


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## Olympia

Also, yes they attack people. But they were bred to fight DOGS and pitbulls are naturally very friendly towards people. They tend to need more work with other dogs.

I recommend watching the show "pitbulls and parolees" on animal planet. I love it! The lady has around 200 rescue pitbulls, and every single one she gets is just just a wiggly people loving dog, even ones that have been abandoned and abused.


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## revolutionrocknroll

""When twenty human fatalities from PBT attacks were studied, several common denominators were observed... Eleven of the owners of these twenty dogs had criminal records and seven of these had criminal records for violence. Eleven of the dogs showed showed evidence of physical abuse." The Dog's Mind by Bruce Fogel DVM, MRCVS.

I really hate everyone who says that these dogs are vicious without knowing any facts besides the amount who have attacked humans.  I work at a doggie daycare and boarding kennel and all of the pits I've met have been very human friendly dogs. I've been bitten by a Siberian husky, a Maltese, and a Pembroke Welsh Corgi, but I've never had any problems with pit bulls.

I'm convinced that breed specific legislation is unnecessary and misguided. I think that certain people should be banned from having any pet, and "dangerous dogs" like pit bulls in particular. These people either abuse the dogs or train them to be human aggressive and those are the ones that end up attacking people. People with a history of animal abuse or certain crimes (drug dealers, violent crimes, etc) should not be allowed to have pets, especially a pet that could be dangerous like a dog.


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## registereduser

Olympia said:


> I recommend watching the show "pitbulls and parolees" on animal planet. I love it! The lady has around 200 rescue pitbulls, and every single one she gets is just just a wiggly people loving dog, even ones that have been abandoned and abused.


I love that show! Actually, many of the dogs she gets are unadoptable. The ranch they have in New Mexico is the forever home for those dogs.

Any breed, any mutt can bite and become unadoptable. Breed bans are stupid.

I hope to adopt one or more senior pitties someday. Can't right now.


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## Sena Hansler

I love how on the news the owner actually says "I have no idea why he'd do that... I mean... I have three kids, and he's really gentle with them, he's never bitten any of us - I have no idea what made him snap!" But really, I guess it's the owner's voice against the dog's silence. Understandabley, to please the public breed bans are in place - usually against the "lock jaws" types, such as the pitbull. BUT that makes no sense considering Great Danes and Mastiffs actually do the same thing. I work with dogs and I don't care the breed. I know the precautions, and I knows ways to get "unbit" if they latch on.

2 reasons dogs bite: aggression, and fear. Aggression is usually "this is my territory" or "I don't like you", and fear is "fight or flight" which most people who are attacked or witness an attack mistaken the signs of "I'm scared" for "I'm a mean and vicious dog." 

Fear and aggression are from one thing: envrironment. Although there are a select few dogs BORN grumpy little poops, doesn't mean they couldn't have been given to a proper family who could deal with it, or been raised being handled around loud sounds, children, etc as a pup to "desensitize."

I personally have never been bit by BIG dogs :| I don't like chihuahuas, because I've been attacked more by them than any other breed. I'm workin' on that though :/ someone forced their little grumpy chihuahua into my hands because she wanted to prove that although on the floor he was a meanie, in hands he was a lover. Aaaand she was right x.x although I kept him far from my face LOL!!

Why don't we put down the bad owner instead >.>

Ohhhh right because OUR lives are more than "a dog's". :| That and the community would be right down p'o'd.


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## Pitluvs

Aus said:


> And that statement above makes a whole lot more sense to me than people denying the possibility that owning a dog breed created for the *singular purpose of killing things dead* MIGHT entail a risk.


See this is the very thing that keeps society in the dark ages. Pitbulls were bred to defend farms from predators and vermin, to sustain stock and crops. It's humans that used them for illegal and twisted gamblings against other animals. The temperament of a Pitbull (and I mean the breed, not a mix) is to be loyal and trusting to humans with no human aggression. Human aggression is not bred into them (unless mixed with a breed with that trait), but trained. You can make a Pitbull whatever you want it to be, their ability to constantly want to please their owners is their greatest and worst feature.

I can't say there was one person in my family that was accepting of my dog when I took her home at 6 wks... we changed that and now my mother has her own Pitbull mix.

Accroding to your statement though, the whole Terrier Group are killers. If you read the description, they were bred to kill things _dead_ as well. 

But yet you have various other breeds, known for human aggression like the Presa Canario which go unnamed. Chow Chows are another. Or possessive breeds like Poodles, Papillion, Lasa Apso, Old English Sheep Dogs, Chihuahua, Dachshunds, Schnauzers... but it's cute when they bite.

Give me a Pitbull, German Shep or Rottie any day over an ankle biter with a big dog attitude. I won't let me 3 yr old son go to his Aunts house with their Chihuahua, but he sleeps with my Pitbull every night.


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## Sena Hansler

I hate possessive dogs. My mom has one :| it hates me. Then again it cannot hurt me it has so little teeth (dog: grrrr SNAP!! nomnomnom gum gum gum) xD :lol: Plus it's an ugly dog. >.>

Mastiffs were also farm dogs. Wolf Hounds, Collies, Blue Heelers, Chows too.... They're picking on the most common "fight dog" there is, which is the pitbull. I've seen sooo many pitbulls and they are so cute!!! Their goal, is to please their human. So, human says, pitbull does.

My dad's dog is a beagle basset. Bassets are thought of "cute and friendly" but they were bred for hunting purposes, and so were beagles. Actually, my dad's dog obeys me well enough I could make her attack someone - or she'll actuall defend me from people she feels "aren't right" to be around us lol.


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## Granberry

Since the OP was eliciting opinions, and I'm sure she expected there to be a lot of different ones, and since nobody here seems to be yelling yet (please don't!), I'm going to add one more idea. 

If a person wants to keep a pet tiger or other specified undomesticated animal in my state, they have to have a license and meet certain requirements as far as enclosures, safety devices, etc. showing they can keep it safely without it presenting a risk of harm to humans or property (such as livestock or pets). It isn't because we're picking on tigers. It's because biologists and wildlife folk tell us tigers are big, strong, and dangerous. 

Pit bulls may be trainable to be non-dangerous to livestock and humans - heck, maybe tigers are too - but they are bred to be strong-jawed enough, well-muscled enough, and to have a "gaming" temperament such that they present a danger to livestock. Animal aggression in the breed is expected (if not tolerated) even in the show ring That kind of an animal needs to be treated like a tiger. So do Dogo Argentinos who were bred to bring down runaway slaves and have certainly killed their fair share of infants and adults.

I really would feel better about this if more pit bull owners were saying things like, "we have a real problem with our breed...let's find a way to handle it" instead of using the "they're so lovable...you're just prejudiced" approach. I have seen breeders tout the line (IDK where they got it, but apparently some authority on temperament) "highly protective of his owners and the owner's property, it will fight an enemy to the death..." Really? Is that something you want to be advertising to people? Who exactly is the target demographic for THAT line? Responsible owners or tough guy wannabes? 

If my community offers the vote to me, I'll support breed specific legislation because all dogs are not created equal.


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## Sena Hansler

That's a good opinion  I will say... it isn't really "pitbulls" it's just "dogs". Dogs derived from WOLVES. domesticated, and became man's friend and protector. Technically, no matter the breed (okay maybe except some of the....toys and teacups because they are smaller than my guineas :| ) they still have that instinct in them... The fight or flight, the hunt, and the protect. People are of a dog's PACK (sorry, but really, dogs are dogs not babies.) and when people forget that it's a "pack" more than "this dog is my baby and I spoil him and I love him and I tuck him in at night" kind of mind setting, they can forget that this animal, can be dangerous, or save their life. I don't say "don't love your dog" lol but remember it isn't a human  instincts are different. 

Which is the same for tigers. Some owners go "I love him like my baby, I tuck him in..." and so on, and forget it is still a wild animal. We have not domesticated tigers as well as dogs, they are still wild and need to be kept carefully - like Granberry mentioned with the permits, enclosures, inspections, etc.


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## Pitluvs

Granberry said:


> Since the OP was eliciting opinions, and I'm sure she expected there to be a lot of different ones, and since nobody here seems to be yelling yet (please don't!), I'm going to add one more idea.
> 
> If a person wants to keep a pet tiger or other specified undomesticated animal in my state, they have to have a license and meet certain requirements as far as enclosures, safety devices, etc. showing they can keep it safely without it presenting a risk of harm to humans or property (such as livestock or pets). It isn't because we're picking on tigers. It's because biologists and wildlife folk tell us tigers are big, strong, and dangerous.
> 
> Pit bulls may be trainable to be non-dangerous to livestock and humans - heck, maybe tigers are too - but they are bred to be strong-jawed enough, well-muscled enough, and to have a "gaming" temperament such that they present a danger to livestock. Animal aggression in the breed is expected (if not tolerated) even in the show ring That kind of an animal needs to be treated like a tiger. So do Dogo Argentinos who were bred to bring down runaway slaves and have certainly killed their fair share of infants and adults.
> 
> I really would feel better about this if more pit bull owners were saying things like, "we have a real problem with our breed...let's find a way to handle it" instead of using the "they're so lovable...you're just prejudiced" approach. I have seen breeders tout the line (IDK where they got it, but apparently some authority on temperament) "highly protective of his owners and the owner's property, it will fight an enemy to the death..." Really? Is that something you want to be advertising to people? Who exactly is the target demographic for THAT line? Responsible owners or tough guy wannabes?
> 
> If my community offers the vote to me, I'll support breed specific legislation because all dogs are not created equal.


Proper Pitbull owners share their experiences with proper dogs, they don't blame a whole breed because someone led dogs astray. There isn't a problem with this breed, there is a problem with humans.

There is a major flaw with BSL, it has never proven to make any change as far as statistics and such. Jezz, even Ohio is lifting their BSL ban lol I would support proper education over banning a breed. I mean we all know when you tell a society they can't have something, the responsible ones will follow the rules. Those are the people you don't have to worry about. Those are the people paying through their noses for insurance and tags and licences to own their pet they have had for years. Those are the people having to give up their dogs to be euthanized in shelters, kids losing the dog they grew up with because families can't afford million dollar insurance or are too fearful that authorities will force their way into their homes and take their dogs. These people live in fear, house pets are sent to gas chambers. And those who don't give two flying flutes about the law? Those are the ones that are problems, those are the ones training these dogs for bad, the ones not training their dogs period and the ones who shouldn't own any animal because they don't have a handle on their own lives or the education to respect and treat an animal properly. These people don't care about your BSL, take their dog... they'll just get another one because the dog is property to them, not a pet. They don't leash their dogs, they don't research them, they just don't care. Meanwhile BSL tears families apart and those responsible for bringing BSL are not fizzed one bit. I'll tell you one thing, BSL passes here and they'll take my dog over my cold dead body. She's my child just as much as my son and daughter. I swore to protect her, and I will. 

I mean how would you feel if someone came to your home and made you hand over your pet because someone else doesn't like them? That's like banning fish from Thailand, and taking all your Bettas and flushing them while you have no say. Seems kinda cruel. Bettas are aggressive fish and people do fight them for sport... and they are one of the most abused fish in the world. 

And chances are... those "breeder" are no better than the trash they are trying to sell their dogs to. To display your dogs in such a manner only brings in one kind of clientele. Those are the breeders with "low rider" Pitbulls registered by the American Back Yard Breeder Club (ADBA) that display them on their free cookie cutter websites. No pedigree with the AKC, just bred for muscle and color, not health or temperament. Not that I would buy a dog, but I certainly wouldn't get one from a shady breeder either lol Just by your post, red flags and bells when off haha


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## Sena Hansler

Here, home breedersof pitbulls (you know, the ones who party all the time then have their dogs breed then sell the pups) sell their pups for 500-1500. :| THAT I can compare to the shady breeders. THAT is so stupidly priced for a "look at these "pure bred" dogs" dumb-person-breeder. Anyways, here, the shelter has the following dogs (or mixed breeds): German Shephards, Pitbulls, Collies, and Mastiffs. And it costs MAYBE 200-300 tops, to adopt a cutie who needs a home.  I've seen more pitbulls in this shelter than any other breed. o.o

Wow. I like that: 
"I mean how would you feel if someone came to your home and made you hand over your pet because someone else doesn't like them? That's like banning fish from Thailand, and taking all your Bettas and flushing them while you have no say. Seems kinda cruel. Bettas are aggressive fish and people do fight them for sport... and they are one of the most abused fish in the world." it's true though :-(


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## revolutionrocknroll

Problem with the tiger comparison: Dogs are domestic (the first domesticated animal, in fact) and tigers aren't. They coevolved with humans to work with and live with us.
Tigers in the wild view humans as prey.


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## registereduser

Sena Hansler said:


> Which is the same for tigers. Some owners go "I love him like my baby, I tuck him in..." and so on, and forget it is still a wild animal. We have not domesticated tigers as well as dogs, they are still wild and need to be kept carefully - like Granberry mentioned with the permits, enclosures, inspections, etc.


 Wild animals need to be in sanctuaries or zoos. Period. End of story.

JMVHO :-?


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## Sena Hansler

Except dogs still have their instincts ;-) Gotta remember - even if you baby your dog, remember he/she is a dog. My mom did that with her ankle biter rat/cat/dog/thing. And my dad's dog too!! And who does my dad's dog listen to the best? me -.- because it's a dog. Not my child. lol! That and I exercise the beagle in her :3


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## revolutionrocknroll

Lol. I work at a doggie daycare and boarding kennel and I usually take care of the small dogs. They are definitely not as well mannered as the big dogs because a lot of their owners don't view them the same way they would a big dog. Some don't even know their own names!
My dog's a 17 pound cockapoo but we treat her like a dog rather than a human and therefore she's well behaved and not spoiled.


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## Granberry

Pitluvs, I hear what you're saying, and I think you point out some valid considerations very well. I find especially persuasive the fact that Ohio lifted its BSL due to ineffectiveness. 

But when you said, "I would support proper education over banning a breed", I just can't go with you there because I don't believe "proper education" works well enough for me to feel my kids are safe, my pets are safe, or my livestock is safe from dogs as I've described. 

Is it fair? Nope. It isn't fair to good responsible owners. But until breed clubs or somebody can find a way to handle this problem either by generations of selective breeding to weed out traits that we as a community don't deem safe or better control of these awful breeders, then government legislation is the only remedy.

And BTW in my state we most certainly do have "FSL" , i.e., fish specific legislation.  There are many types of fish that are illegal to sell, dump in ponds or lakes, etc. because we deem them dangerous to native livestock. 

BTW, if I come off as abrasive, please forgive me. I am a retired lawyer, and I never have anything interesting to talk to people about any more because my kids quit listening to me when they went to college and my husband has never listened to me, so I'm just really enjoying this discussion. But I promise I've said my piece now, and I'll zip it.


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## Sena Hansler

hehe should see when I "baby" my dad's 60 pound beagle/basset :3 I literally flip her over and cradle her like a baby :lol: she doesn't even care. 

Hey! Which reminds me. Why do people get rid of their dogs when the dog bites their kid? My dad's dog is SO gentle, GREAT with babies... but she is at her end with my 6 year old niece, who sits on her, pulls her tail, pulls her ears, smacks her, pulls her fur and skin, etc :| We warned my niece, that she'll nip her one day and we won't feel sorry. Kids need to learn dogs have boundaries too -.- But some people use the excuse of "it bit my baby!" stop babying the dog and dump it at some spca or shelter :-( without looking at the entire situation.

And Granberry, you're allowed to debate  debating is good for ya!!! lol. Everyone has an opinion, which is good, and sets us apart from each other


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## revolutionrocknroll

I don't know. A lot of people don't understand dogs, or animals in general. They either anthropomorphize them or are like "it's just a fish, rat, dog, bird, etc" and don't really care about them.
My mom always told me and my sisters to not play roughly with our dog because if she even bit someone (like a neighbor, etc) by accident or wanting to play we might have to euthanize her. My 4 year old cousins were chasing her around once and screaming and just being annoying and she growled at them and everyone was so concerned about my cousins even though she didn't do anything to them. She just told them to back off.
People shouldn't get pets if they don't understand their mental, emotional, and physical needs, as well as their basic behavior.


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## Sena Hansler

Agreed!!

And I know that in USA ONE offense by a dog can = death or the dog needs to be out of that state by a certain time frame or else it is killed. It's pretty harsh!! Here in Canada (or at least Alberta) it is not as bad. Yes, a dog bites someone. But that person usually is apologized to, she might file a report or sue, and that's that. Only a small handful of people will ask for that dog to be killed - which are the ones I say "P--- Off!" because it's a dog. Some are rehabilitated, or in the course of rehabilitation. You cannot resocialize a dog WITHOUT SOCIALIZATION!!! lol.

The only time my dad's dog bit me, was when we were playing and she got too rough. Then I tell her "stop" and she releases automatically. She won't wrestle with anyone but three of us (all adults) which is good  gotta know your doggie!! 

Or how about this funny situation... A deemed dangerous Great Dane lived in or area. I offered to get my neighbor's dog (jack russel) back when he ran off. He was swimming in the icky man-made pond, and wouldn't come out. That great dane sauntered up (ooo scary), looked at the dog, at me, at the dog. Went in after the dog (kinda surprised me and made me a little scared) and end up herding the russel out of the water for me x.x Yeah. Scary doggy =D Rumors + experience + breed = scared people.


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## MollyJean

I have 3 cats. I am a cat person.. have had them all my life, and I've never owned one who was an outright mean cat. Take the 3 I have now. Miko is TINY, she purrs all the time and she's the kind of cat if you pick her up she gets floppy, goes limp; She never fights. My 3 year old niece can walk around with her without trouble.. she's 100% trusting of people.

My twins, Caine and Tyrael, are cuddle monsters, always want to be around people, love strangers and are just too lazy to hunt.

Yet if these cats are upset, mishandled or mistreated they will claw and bite. If I catch Miko in a really bad mood she'll bite at my hand. She's scared of lightening and thunder and most loud sounds and if you try to hold her during a storm you're going to get clawed. Caine, as sweet as he is, bites toes when he wants to be fed. It's a personality trait I haven't figured out how to curb, and they all just accidentally claw at times, jumping onto my lap or shoulders.

Anyone who owns cats knows they can't be trained like a dog can, they don't listen to a word you say and they can and do draw blood. But they're small, cute and mostly harmless, so no one's going to regulate them and most of the time, a cat attack isn't newsworthy. Same with small dogs. I've been snapped at by more chihuahua's then anything else, but the owners always brush it off "Oh he's in a bad mood" "Oh she's just playing" Yeah.. playing in the blood gushing from my thumb. But these dogs and cats are never held responsible for their actions, never put down for being vicious. 

lizards, hamsters, mice, snakes, spiders... people keep pets that are just dangerous... -untrainable- and dangerous, because like it or not, they are animals. As much as we domesticate them, they're still, in some part, wild animals. 

All dogs have the potential to be dangerous. With Pitbulls, they where bred to be hunters. They're bred from terriers and those are some vicious animals. but ANY dog has the potential to cause harm. Let's face it, it's like giving a butchers knife 4 legs and a mind of it's own.

Looking at all of this, I really do believe that the media and people in general sensationalize pitbull and "Pitbull-ish" dogs. I think there are far more people who have been bitten by non-pitbulls and haven't called up the local newspaper because "Teacup Poodle Snaps off Pinky" is just silly... but if it looks like a pit, it's a chance to make a splash. And a lot of these "Pitbulls" aren't even really pits. They're just identified as pits.

Here, try this, see if you get it right. And remember, this chart doesn't even have mixed breeds, just purebreeds. I've never owned a Pitbull before Sadie, and when I got her I tried this test and failed.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## Thebettaqueen

If a dog attacked another dog, it must've belonged to someone that was abusive or was a stray. Usually, if a dog is away from human contact for a while, they can convert to their 'wild' instints, or the animal ( or person) was much smaller than the dog. A lab attacked my pom pom, and he wasn't a stray. It was because my pom was much smaller, and looks extremely puffy. It was probably just a instint that EVERY dog has. Not just pits.


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## Thebettaqueen

Yeah, just as Mollyjean said.


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## Sena Hansler

My dad's dog got into a scat with a blue heeler O_O And it's because blue heelers, although wonderful dogs need a JOB. Actually, same goes for any "hunter" or "herder" dog. They need jobs  I make my dad's dog unwind with bike rides, hill climbing, etc in the summer. I personally believe blue heelers and collies alike shouldn't be kept with lazy or "we don't exercise much" people because they NEED jobs!! :-( or they do get irritated because they are bored. Same goes with any dog, who was made for a specific job.


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## revolutionrocknroll

I don't really believe that there are any "bad dogs," just bad owners. Although, there are dogs with psychological and neurotic issues that ARE dangerous and should probably be euthanized. But any sane dog that attacks someone should be blamed on the owner. But dogs that are properly bred, socialized, trained, etc, shouldn't be a problem.


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## Sena Hansler

There's this German Shephard.... I watched as he grew up for a year, becoming a flipping service dog. The lady who owns him claims that ALL service dogs are trained to be SUPER protective and attack if they feel there is danger. Um, BULL. complete BULL. 

This dog, was her excuse of a "he felt danger" when as a customer, she wanted help with something so I did. He almost attacked me when I walked by. I did not run, I was not feeling panicked or anything, nothing to actually set him off. Now, before when he was being trained he was STILL the same way! very nervous, tail between the legs, disliked people, loud noises and movement. And they STILL made him into a SERVICE DOG instead of rehoming him to a good loving family.

I grew up seeing many service dogs, all of which were calm, and never jumped at the first opportunity to tear your limbs off.

I got in trouble for BAD training. I did not train him. Service dogs yes are trained to protect and help, but NOT to attack willy nilly at movement. What if it were a child running by in the store? Or a baby in a stroller?? Would she still claim her dog was a "good boy" and "it was an accident" and that "they should be more careful"???!!! 

So yes. It IS people. Not the dogs in general. Some are born....with problems. Like him. He should've been in a home with responsible adults, not as a service dog. Ugh.


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## Aus

If bettas were massive and could leap out of their tanks to bite the faces off children, I dare say there'd be some move to legislate them, as well...

I feel sorry for responsible dog owners who favour traditionally aggressive breeds, I really do. People who obedience train, provide breed-specific methods of working against inbred aggression, who don't ever ever allow children to antagonise their dogs, and who keep their dogs on leashes when appropriate, and so on .. I feel bad for them, when they and their animals have to pay for other people's stupidity.

But, I fear, like responsible betta owners, responsible dog owners are in the vast minority compared to the amount of idiots out there who don't give a damn about the animal itself, or who really think they do and end up making a dog dangerous through sheer igorance.

Of course, I understand that other breeds are dangerous. But the OP brought up one breed in particular, and presumably opened a discussion on that breed. 

My experience with that one breed is watching a pair of them eat another dog alive. Now, I have seen a lot of dogs fighting. Some seriously (it's horrible to watch). But I have never seen any other kind of dog be aggressive enough to smash a fence down and literally rip another dog apart --and then carry pieces of that dead dog away. 

Yes, pitties are not the only breed which is genetically inclined toward vicious fighting (I am pretty sure nobody is arguing that?), but it is one of the breeds which are. And no matter what they were first bred for, many of the dogs today come from former (or present) pit-fighting lines. Hence they are still called 'pit bulls'. And, sadly, it's a very, very popular breed among stupid people, as Rottweilers used to be here, and Bull Terriers, and Shepherds before them. 

IMO, an absolute zero-tolerance policy on ANY actively aggressive dog as far as the law goes, and much, much heftier penalties (or hey, what about some guaranteed jail time?) for owners of dogs which roam and attack people or their pets would do so much more to protect everyone concerned than merely focussing on the potential for harm in one breed. But that isn't going to happen any time soon, because that isn't what makes voters happy. So limits on specific breeds is what we're left with, I guess, and I am inclined to support it. 

Because I am such a big ole meanypants.:lol:


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: big ole meanypants. lol!

I've been told, that pits against rotties... Pitbulls clamp their jaws, and won't let go unlike other possible "fighter" dogs. Which is why some places banned them.

Darn if we banned every breed that ever attacked a person we'd have NO dogs :/ truthfully :3 haha! and although they have been doing well in stopping illegal dog fights, it is still happening, it will never end, therefore I guess the ban on the breed is really the only way to go.

I got a question though. What if, in all the places illegal dog fights happen they banned the main fighter dog, pitbulls? People would just switch to other breeds, wouldn't they :/


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## revolutionrocknroll

Wow... service dogs aren't supposed to be aggressive. Their purpose is not to keep someone from getting attacked or something, it's to help people with disabilities live an independent life.
Did she train him herself or was he from an organization that provides service dogs or did she get a professional trainer or what?


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## Sena Hansler

UGH. it made me SO mad!!!  
1. service dogs are NOT chosen by the -soon to be- owner. They are specifically picked, tested, and determined. Same as police dogs. 
2. they are trained to be loyal companions who help in the times of trouble (actually being attacked aka reading distress signs in their owner), and times of need (opening the fridge or door, or turning off the light).

Organization apparently, here, in this town. Loyalty will have them protect - but they are not taught to freak out at movement!! He was actually just a rotten pick, in my opinion. A good dog, maybe, with a quiet home with adults. But not as...this....service dog. I am SO used to the calm, usually purebred properly bred/chosen pups becoming service dogs. Him? He has a longer nose, lanky appearance and all around there is something wrong in his genetics. :/ I dunno what's with our "service dog" group here, but if THAT is what they breed, we're going out of town for a REAL service dog if need be!

don't they specifically have breeding pairs that both parents have a long line of good temperament?


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## revolutionrocknroll

Yeah, I know someone who volunteered with an eye seeing dog organization and they put a lot of effort into breeding and training dogs with good temperaments.


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## Sena Hansler

exactly... it is not a stroll in the park lol. I looked up about training service dogs and that is why I knew her "they are ALL taught like this" was a bogus cover up for a bad temperament dog :/ She picked him as a pup. They don't actually allow that...

Although I do find most dogs easy to control... well...bigger ones x) I've never had a problem with rotties, pits, beagles, etc because I'm firm, but good with them. Little dogs I just cannot work with xD little meaners.
(although I wanna find a good tempered pomeranian because nyawwwww =D)


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## Enkil

I just went through some stuff because I'm getting a pitty puppy. He's 3 weeks old right now and I'll get him when he's 8 weeks. He's from a breeder and is being raised in a home with children, including a newborn.

A lot of people frown upon these dogs, but I think it quite ridiculous. They are big sweeties and are bred to do anything for their people. In all honesty, I trust labs less than I do bully breeds.
I grew up with a doberman that wouldn't hurt a fly. As a toddler, I led him around by the bandana he wore around his neck. He taught me to walk.

I hat a pit/lab mix that taught my daughter to crawl.

The puppy I am getting is going to be trained to be my service dog. A lot of people frown upon it because of the breed. In all honesty, I think people have just gotten it in their heads to fear these dogs because they don't really know them. Fear of the unknown really. And yet not so long ago, the American pitty was the mascot for our military. Now they ban these dogs from military installations and from so many cities. Not to mention how hard it is to find someplace to live that doesn't have a ban on the breed. If people would take just 5 minutes to interact with a family raised, well socialized pit, their entire view would be changed.
Heck, their are pics of my puppy's father laying with a newborn propped up against him. These are dogs that have been bred to love us and give their lives for us. A lot of people don't realize it, but most breeders of pits will put down any dog that shows human aggression.

I also found this and thought it cute so I'll share it with you all.
_Top Ten Reasons Why You Can't Trust Vicious Pit Bulls_
_*10. They will steal your spot on the couch while you are up getting a soda.*_ 
_*9. They will take the treat you give them and bury in the back yard like a paranoid crack head*_
_*hiding their stash.*_
_*8. They will jump on your bed with muddy feet. Making you do the laundry...again!*_
_*7. They will lick visitors with an uncontrolled passion only they understand.*_
_*6. They will cause children to smile. *_
_*5. They will make you feel horrible for not walking them by looking at you with deep sad eyes.*_
_*4. They will look at you like you committed a crime against them if you don't let them lick your*_
_*ice cream bowl.*_
_*3. They will cause wide spread happiness in large group settings. *_
_*2. They will crack you up by shaking their butts so hard you think they are going to snap in half.*_
_*And the number one reason why you can't trust vicious Pit Bulls...*_
_*1. They will steal your heart like a thief in the night, showing you complete and pure love that*_
_*only a Pit Bull can show.*_ ​


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## Sena Hansler

haha nice. I saw a brindle pitbull... dyawww. :lol: he was ridin' low with his bum wagging with his tail so much he was gonna fall over xD He was raised really well. His sister was the same too lol. 

I've wrestled with a guard dog o.o she was taught "play" is "okay" if the person is wearing gloves or something over their hands. Once the hands show, games done  It's all how they are taught hehe. She really was gentle and lovin' though


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## Tikibirds

I got my 1st dog from North shore Animal League..
Anyways, ther eis no such thing as a dangerous breed, just stupid owners and breeders. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jh2_2z92mw
dogs 101: pitt bull


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## LionCalie

The problem with Pitbulls:


 Commonly owned/trained by *bad people *(guys trying to look tough/want a scary guard dog)
Strong desire to please humans, thus good for Dog fighting
Negative media spotlight/confusion aka "If it looks like a pitbull then lets call it one to grab headlines"
Powerful breed... Obviously a bite from a Pitbull is going to do more damage than a Chihuahua, which makes them seem more vicious
Misunderstood
I always encourage people to watch this video. It's from Best Friend Animal Society, the sanctuary/rescue that took in the Michael Vick fighting dogs -many have gone on to new family homes, with children, btw.
*
"No dog should ever be euthanized for what they are. This is America's Dog we are talking about, and unfortunately America has lost track of that. " *-John Garcia 

http://youtu.be/QHpPSTaSRHc


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## Aluyasha

I personally have no dislike for any dog breeds. My only iffyness about myself getting a pitbull is that I have no strength to hold the leash if it is not good on walks. lol
Another issue with people so against pits is that, as for the media, we only really hear about pits when they do something wrong (and of course they do not state the reason the dog bit, just that it bit), I can list many people I know who have pits that have never bit someone (just as I can list stories of pits and other breeds nice and not). My cousin has a pit bull who has been attacked by other dogs and still did not bite back when they got her! 
My family has owned many types of dogs that have mixed results. We had a mean chihuahua, a nice chihuahua, a mean great dane, and 2 nice danes, a mean border collie, a loving brittany, a possive lab, and a cuddley cattle dog. Right now my mom has 2 dachshunds, one is a total psycho and the other is very shy and caring. What I am getting at is, dogs are like people, just as other animals. We all have a huge lottery of personalites.

With pits, one of the things that upset me about people against them is that. If a lab bites someone, we sit and think for a good reason why the dog did it, but when a pit bites someone everyone just says "well that is a pit for you". We do not even give it a chance.
Does anyone remember that story about the newfoundland that killed the owners child? They did euthanize the dog right afterwards but they made sure to do an autopsy to find out why he attacked (turned out the kid stabbed it in the ear with a pencil). Do not get me wrong, it is horrible when a child dies no matter what. But I just think if that was a pitbull, they would not have done the autopsy.
IMO, just as how each type of fish have an experince level, I believe dog breeds do too. I think pits are under the "for experinced dog owners only" section. 

I honestly have no idea what to do about the "bully breed" situation. I guess each person just needs to make their own choice about wether or not they would like to own any of the "risky" breeds.


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## Enkil

I love the breed. The puppy I'm getting is a black brindle. He's absolutely adorable. I'm really looking forward to training him. Hopefully potty training will be easier since there are 2 older dogs in the house. XD


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## Sena Hansler

but chihuahua bites hurt  LOL. 
I personally would love to own a pitbull. When I have the space, time and place for one 

(heh heh for the first point LionCalie.... I imagined a big ol' tough muscle man with a pitbull with a spiked color, and saying "come on Shnookums")

The newfoundland got stabbed in the ear?  If I were that dog I woulda bit too  ouch!! (although, poor kid!!)


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## Inga

As an owner and lover of the number 2 most dangerous breed (The Rottweiler) I have never understood the argument for breed specific legislation. 34+ years ago when I got my first Rottweiler, people didn't know what they were. Nobody thought anything of the 72 pound 10 year old walking all over the place with her 110 lb Rottie. Nobody crossed the street when they saw me coming, I could tie her up outside the drugstore and go in for some gum without worry. People would ask to pet her all the time. I am sure in part this is because she was owned by a 10 year old who loved to dress her in a tutu and ribbons on her head. Was the breed not dangerous back then? Why were they not killing anyone? Maybe they hadn't bought into the idea of dogs being responsible for human error? 

When the Movie "The Omen" came out and the Rottweiler was the dog that "guarded the gates of hell" guess what kind of people rushed out and got one? Do you think it was the same kind that rushed out and got a Golden or a Collie? NOPE! People saw a well trained to in a movie and bought into the idea of this MEAN dog with evil tendencies. I cannot tell you how often I hear people say "I have seen how mean they are in movies" as if that everything you see in movies is true. Heck, I have seen purple and red elephants that can fly in movies but I don't suddenly they are all that way or for that matter, that elephants CAN fly. 

Breed bans don't work. It has been proved over and over again that they do not work. Until people are held accountable for their dogs actions, we will have an issue. I have had this breed 34+ years, I have worked in Rottie rescue and Pit Bull rescue for that matter. I have never once in all those years had one that was nasty like the movies portray. I have had dogs that endured unspeakable cruelties yet came out on the other end friendly and forgiving. Both Rotties and Pit Bulls have that forgiving temperament. They are loyal and if a good owner has them, they are the BEST dogs in the world. If the owner is crappy and leads them in the wrong direction... the results are less favorable.

One other thing I didn't read on here is how often the "Pit Bulls" or "Rottweiler's" that are involved are misidentified. I have been called out to houses many times to pick up a Pit Bull or a Rottweiler only to find a Lab mix or something totally different. I have seen pictures of dogs involved in Bites that are labeled these breeds and they most certainly are NOT those breeds. For years, anything that was black and tan was a Rottie. Now anything with a big head is a Pit Bull. Do you know how many times people have argued with me that MY dogs are Pit Bulls? Mine are purebred dogs and NOT Pit Bulls but I have had people actually get angry with me when I say "no, they are not PIt Bulls" 

I do not recommend doing some things with Pit Bulls or Rottweilers that other breed owners can do. One thing I will never do is take my dogs to a dog park. I did in the past and on 4 separate occasions, MY dogs were attacked by other dogs. Of those 4 occasions, 3 were Golden Retrievers. NONE of those times did my dogs fight back but if they did... who would be to blame? Who's dog would be on the front page of the paper? Not worth the risk in my opinion. Also, I don't care how wonderful your Pit Bull is, the truth is, they have been bred for dog aggression and you do not know when that will show up. IT isn't worth the risk. IMO 

Owning one of these dogs, in today's society requires 100% responsibility all the time. There simply is no room for mistakes. I have a fenced in yard (6 foot privacy) I also have locked gates and nice neighbors. I do NOT just leave my dogs outside at any time. It isn't worth the risk. 

IF my dog ever bit someone with no provocation, nobody would have to ask me or order me to put my dogs to sleep as it would already be done. My dogs are registered therapy dogs, they are socialized all the time, do a lot of public events, training and rescue demo's, are a part of "read to a dog" programs, sit with pediatric and geriatric patients but at the end of the day, they are still dogs. Over and above that, they are large powerful dogs and I do not take for granted the damage that could be done if they made a mistake. If every owner of these breeds was that careful... You would never hear about them. Sadly, there are too many that think staking a dog out in the backyard and tossing food from time to time is enough care. Worse, people that think it is funny to encourage their dog to chase people at the fence or charge the door when people come over.


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## Sena Hansler

Hey! then here a question, Inga. CAN a 3 year old rottie be trained, or rehabilitated? :| I say yes. My brother says no, because they are a "stubborn" breed, therefore what they learned before the age of 1 is set into them and there is no way to fix what they were taught. I.e a 3 year old rottie who was taught to fight would have to be euthanised because there is "no way" they can be helped. And I seriously am going to try (and probably will knowing my persistance) to show rotties after age 1 or whatever CAN be readopted, CAN be rehabilitated, and CAN be helped out of problems like fear, aggression, bad training, etc.

Or is it just PEOPLE who won't take a chance with a strong breed?


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## Termato

Sena Hansler said:


> Hey! then here a question, Inga. CAN a 3 year old rottie be trained, or rehabilitated? :| I say yes. My brother says no, because they are a "stubborn" breed, therefore what they learned before the age of 1 is set into them and there is no way to fix what they were taught. I.e a 3 year old rottie who was taught to fight would have to be euthanised because there is "no way" they can be helped. And I seriously am going to try (and probably will knowing my persistance) to show rotties after age 1 or whatever CAN be readopted, CAN be rehabilitated, and CAN be helped out of problems like fear, aggression, bad training, etc.
> 
> Or is it just PEOPLE who won't take a chance with a strong breed?


Do it and prove everyone wrong. Save that dog! ;-)


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## Granberry

It seems like everyone agrees the problem is some owners, not the dogs. But recognizing that is useless unless you have a way to FORCE people to change, and you can't. You can just control access to the kinds of dogs they're allowed to have. We can force them to keep their pets confined or to surrender them.

Can anyone here offer a better solution? A solution that doesn't depend on the wisdom of people who are specifically buying dogs advertised to "fight to the death"? Because you can't educate people out of their preferences in something like that.

Until you can offer a solution that is enforceable and likely to keep our cattle, house pets, and children safe, I don't understand how you can oppose laws which specifically address control of dogs (or tigers!) that threaten them. 

Personally, I am really critical of the AmStaff and other pit bull-ish breed clubs. They aren't stepping in to change the breed, i.e., change the AKC standard to reduce the size and strength of the various pit bull breeds body and jaw, or to add temperament standards that are acceptable (i.e., animal aggression is not expected to be part of the breed). Breed clubs all pound it into our head not to buy a Cavalier without some certification for heart murmurs, rottweilers without a hip certification, other dogs without an eye certification. Why the heck aren't the bully breed clubs developing some method of certifying stable temperament?

PS: Just to clarify, one doesn't have to support a complete ban of pit bulls to support breed specific legislation. You can support requirements that pit bulls aren't allowed at dog parks, that they have to have a higher fence, etc.


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## Tikibirds

Sensa - I think it would depend on the individual dog. Im sure some can be come around, but I also think that some are just too far gone. Just like humans from absuive cildhood homes. Some will grow up and be able to live and love and some will grow up and continue the cycle of violence.

There are alot of pit bulls that frequented the dog park in Fairbanks and as a general rule, my dog (who is NOT in the most dangerous beed list) is the one most likely to cause trouble. It kinda amazes me when he gets those "dangreous dogs "to roll over into the submissive pose especially considering he is only 25 pounds.


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## Aus

> If every owner of these breeds was that careful... You would never hear about them.


Inga, I wish so hard that every owner of these breeds (or really ANY breed) took as much care as you do to ensure -everyone's- safety. 

Your grip on reality is wholly refreshing.


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## Sena Hansler

Termato - I would. If I DARE see that poor co-owned beaten rottie in the shelter he is MINE :lol: I'll find a place that allows dogs. He needs a real home, not being co-owned, or beaten :| poor boy. He's about 2-3 years old now anyways. 

Granberry, that is true. I personally think ANY breed that is bred should come with a temperament certificate.

Tiki I agree... some are far gone. But there is this silly "ALL rotties pass blahblahblah age is too far gone to bring back" but, you can teach old dog new tricks.

My dad's dog is 6 ;-) I taught her off leash (HAHA myth of "beagles and bassets run away offleash"), and the words "ready" and "go" :lol: plus she knows if she runs off I walk away. And she doesn't like it so she stays near :3


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## revolutionrocknroll

Granberry said:


> It seems like everyone agrees the problem is some owners, not the dogs. But recognizing that is useless unless you have a way to FORCE people to change, and you can't. You can just control access to the kinds of dogs they're allowed to have. We can force them to keep their pets confined or to surrender them.
> 
> Can anyone here offer a better solution? A solution that doesn't depend on the wisdom of people who are specifically buying dogs advertised to "fight to the death"? Because you can't educate people out of their preferences in something like that.
> 
> Until you can offer a solution that is enforceable and likely to keep our cattle, house pets, and children safe, I don't understand how you can oppose laws which specifically address control of dogs (or tigers!) that threaten them.


1) Outlaw puppy mills and make it illegal for pet stores to sell puppies. Also regulate breeders so that only reputable breeders (that test the parents genetics, only choose parents that are healthy and have good temperaments, and socialize the puppies) are the ones breeding and backyard breeders are deterred from breeding. 

This will force people to either adopt from shelters/rescues or buy from good breeders. These sources will take the dogs back if there are any problems, and will take the responsibility of euthanizing dogs that are vicious. BYBs and puppy mills don't take genetics into consideration either, so they are churning out dogs that are genetically predisposed to aggression for the sake of profit.

People who adopt from shelters or take the time to research breeds and breeders aren't going to be making impulse buys, and the shelters and breeders will ask these potential owners many questions about their lifestyles, etc to make sure that they are prepared for that particular dog.

2) Also, as I said in an earlier post, it should be illegal for people with a history of animal abuse or certain crimes (drug dealers, violent crimes, etc) to own pets and potentially dangerous animals like dogs in particular.

THIS is how I think this controversy should be managed. Breed specific legislation is not the answer. Someone could get a husky or a labrador and make it vicious if they didn't have access to pit bulls.


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## Enkil

The UKC has a specific standard for Pokets. This is a Pitty that is small. 15 inches seems average, but many are 14 inches or shorter. You want less power? You can't breed for that in a pit bull. These dogs were originally bred to go against bulls, just like the bulldog.
The myths about their jaws are just that, myths. Their jaws do not lock. Yes. they are a powerful breed because they once had purpose. They were a working dog. Like the Rotty. Like the Doberman. Like the German Shepard. Like the Bulldog. It is unfair to say that the only options are to breed them down or put them down. Why not put stipulations in place that say all private owners must fix their pit unless medically proven the dog has an allergic reaction to anesthesia? Why not confiscate and rehome any dog that is kept without following such a stipulation? There is no real logical reasoning to punish the breed. None. There is no need or reason to punish responsible owners. None.

Has the German Shepherd been bred down to be less powerful? No and they use these dogs in law enforcement. It isn't fair or right.

Edit:
Also, these dogs pass the temperament tests with higher grades and more often than other breeds do.


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## Oldfishlady

Its the amount of damage the pit bulls can inflict-
True that other breeds may bite more people/animals-but pit bulls can kill and/or do serious damage on the human body and other animals
How many times have you heard about other breeds that killed a human or ripped their arm off or tore another animal to shreds....rarely do you hear of this..it happens but rarely....
Pit bulls are powerful animals and once they start the attack-its hard if not impossible to stop them.
How many times do you hear after a pit bull attack "My pit bull has never bit or showed aggression" with a pit bull it only takes one bite-one attack...it only takes one attack...death is forever...saying I am sorry...can not bring the dead back, replace the limb ripped from the body, cover the physical and mental scars produced.....
What is more important.....life, limb, physical/emotional scars or a Dog......

Why do I dislike this breed.......YOU, have a child thrown in your arms DEAD..... with their guts ripped and hanging from their lifeless bloody body by a parent screaming demanding that you bring them back to life after the family pet pit bull attacks for the very first time...... 

You-go and tell a parent that their child is DEAD or that the arm can't be reattached or the facial/body scars will be life long and need countless surgeries....you comfort that injured child/adult or the survivor of the incident that come to you with the night terrors and life long pain and loss......

I don't hate this breed....I hate what this breed can do to the human body....Its sad that some are blinded by what this breed can do and make excuses or try to place blame on bad owners, training...etc......

This is a powerful and beautiful animal-but it can kill.....


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## revolutionrocknroll

Any dog can kill. Maybe we should outlaw dogs.


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## Enkil

A dog's life is important to. They are a member of the family and loved like a child. Any dog can maim or kill. You may not think so looking at them, but they can. How easy would it be for that little lap dog to take an eye or ear? Or maim a child's face? The family lap dog is good and allowed around the baby, What happens if the little dog decides the baby isn't friendly and the baby dies? Labs are just as likely. Any dog can do it. You just don't hear about it like you do a bully breed.


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## FishyFishy89

The only dogs that have ever bit me are a boxer (I was a child and was being in his face too much) and a yippy yorkie. So I guess these dogs are DANGEROUS as well. Might as well ban them from certain places too.:roll:

Took Emma to the doggie park today. A couple with 2 mutts (mixed breed dogs) walked in before me. Immediately I noticed the male was aggressive with the female. I made sure Emma was far from them. Later on that same dog attacked a husky who was chasing his own toy. Took me and 3 other people to pull the dog off.
Everyone supports and protects this park and politely (some rudely) told them to leave. The guy didn't even take responsibility for his dog's actions. He said "that dog bit mine 1st" 1. the husky never showed aggression. Even when your dog had a death grip on the husky he just balled up and cried. 2. it is your dog accept responsibility for your dog's actions. 3. Wither you like it or not, it is park rules and the law that aggressive dogs are NOT allowed off leash.


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## FishyFishy89

Sena Hansler said:


> Or is it just PEOPLE who won't take a chance with a strong breed?


that and there are just not enough people to help train all the aggressive dogs. some are just afraid as well.


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## Granberry

Oy. This thread is making me feel old.

The idea of outlawing puppy mills and pet shops, requiring background checks before dog purchases, requiring spay and neuter or surrender your dog...these are obviously great ideas that would do a world of good. It would take someone young and passionate for their cause to fight the home breeders and pet store lobbies and to identify funding for enforcement of spay/neuter or breeder licensing, because cops (like my hubby of 25 years) don't have the skills to confiscate dogs and animal control doesn't have funding...

But I say hey, a lot of change for good was made by idealistic and energetic and committed young people, so I will support you in any legislation you propose. If it doesn't make it to the ballot though...well, you know.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Bleh... capitalism. Only companies with money get to have a say in politics nowadays.

I'm an animal science major, and I plan to work in animal welfare when I graduate from college, so I'll see what I can do.


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## Aluyasha

If only animal welfare laws were stronger...then if a person wants their pitbull to be the mean devil alot of people think it is then the owner can get into trouble if the dog attacks someone, not the dog getting in trouble for it.
People should be held responsible for their animals and not have the dogs pay the price.


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## Bombalurina

I am fully in support of advocating higher fences, better leash laws, dog park laws, etc, and dog licensing. I don't think it should be limited to dogs, though. 

My thing is cats. Don't get me wrong, I adore cats. There is one neighbourhood cat that loves to approach me for a face scratch. BUT I hate that it is roaming the streets in the first place. People ought to keep their cats indoors, or at least in their gardens. When they leave their gardens, they go into the local wildlife sanctuary and kill native lizards, or into my garden and try and get at my fish, and terrify my rats when I am playing with them on the grass. I should be able to enjoy my garden with my animals without a neighbour's animal jumping in and attacking them. 
I wish cats were not allowed to free-roam. Buy them a cat run, or a cat aviary, or keep them indoors. Not out trying to eat my pets.


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## MollyJean

Sadie was at the vet last week for knee surgery. The vet fell in love with her and put a pic of her on his facebook. The picture? His hands in her mouth making her smile. She let a stranger manhandle her and her tail was wagging the whole time.










I really do believe it's the owners that make a dog good or bad... Training and socialization. Those are the most important things! Without those, any dog can be mean. Sadie has been trained to not react negatively when her face is touched. It was really pretty easy to do, and now I can let kids play with her without worrying about them grabbing her face.

Regulating breeds is a good idea.. if it's done right. In some states, people need permits to own turtles, racoons, iguanas, snails... this should be applied to breeds of dogs. I would be happy if a person had to have a permit to own a pitbull, a rotty, a doberman, a few other powerful breeds.. and this is not limited to breeds that have been deamed "dangerous" by the media.. this is any dog that is powerful enough to do serious damage. Which means.. most dogs. Sadly this is never going to happen, so rather then the people who own these dogs taking the blame, the poor dog is the scape goat. Banning any breed outright, though, seems ridiculous.

Either way, I'm proud of my Sadie Bell, she's a good girl, no matter how many people think she was "born bad". 









Best friends Sadie and Tyrael


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## Aluyasha

All my cats are totally indoor. When I was younger I had cats that went outside...they never lived very long. So now that I have my own house my cats stay inside, and they have microchips just in case.


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## Olympia

^ +1 to the cat thing 100%.
It is becoming illegal in some towns near me. 
We have this calico cat that always comes to our garden. It digs in our garden, it scares our wild birds (we are wild bird lovers.. we usually have several bird nests in view that we have to look over to be sure the cat doesn't get to the babies..) I tried scaring it out of my yard one day (my dog was beside me and probably caused the following) It jumped onto a fence, hissed and almost jumped on my dog. I had to -lightly- hit it with the blunt end of the shovel I had (I assure you that cat was not hurt and this really was a last second response, I mean what was I supposed to do?) This summer if we see it, I want to borrow the neighbors raccoon trap, catch it and take it to the humane society >__>

Cats. Lol. So off topic.


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## Aus

I agree with Granberry on all that, and also hope more people stand up for sensible laws that apply to all dog owners. 

But as to this thread's original point and title - I think it's really short sighted to say "these dogs are hated for no reason" when attacks happen all the time. There's hundreds of people who are dead, maimed and traumatised due to pit bulls. Yes, other breeds bite too, yadda yadda, but I am addressing the OP's specific topic and thread title here.

Here's a site that might be food for thought:

http://www.dogsbite.org/blog-posts-victims-dog-attacks.php

Just check out how many of those reports concern "family dogs". And think about those people, those kids, and the pain and trauma they must have gone through. I can see some pretty darned compelling reasons for people to dislike the breed. 

A bit of balance is needed on both sides of the debate. 

I also think (I didn't read the comment about it until just now) anyone posing a newborn baby with any kind of large animal for a photo is completely mental. Because really? Risking your baby's wellbeing, no matter how small you believe that risk to be, is a such a fantastic way to show the world what a good animal owner/parent you are? :roll:

ETA: This just takes the cake for stupid (not a pit bull! but a great example of stupid and skewed priorities in dog owners, anyway - and I am even more horrified that this idiot is an Australian): http://blog.dogsbite.org/2008/01/nominated-mother-of-year.html
_
UPDATE 1/30/08: The mother who vowed to keep the family dog that attacked her toddler says she is not a bad mom, and people should realize that dogs have feelings too. She continues to blame her two-year-old son for the attack, which happened after the toddler tugged on the animal's ears.__"The dog was trying to protect herself, she's got feelings too, just like Noah does," Ms Cottier said.
_​


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## revolutionrocknroll

What's wrong with keeping the dog then? What difference would it make if it was euthanized or given away if the kid now knows not to pull on the dog's ears? When I was a little kid I pulled on my cat's tail and I got scratched. My parents didn't get rid of the cat. I just learned to respect animals.
That website is incredibly biased and you should find neutral information and information from the other point of view too before believing everything you read.


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## Aus

The child was two? And was "lucky to still have his eye"?

.. different strokes, I guess.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Eh, I guess it's individual choice. If I had a child and I cared about it and my dog attacked it for no reason, then I would get rid of the dog. But if the kid was doing something to hurt, frighten, or annoy the dog, I would have seen the warning signs and told the kid to stop, but if I hadn't, and the dog snapped at the kid to tell it to back off, then there's a reason and the problem wouldn't be that the dog is aggressive, it would be that there wasn't proper supervision and you just have to make sure you're paying attention when the kid and dog are together.

I just don't think that it's completely fair to call the owner stupid when you don't know the circumstances.

Edit: Here are statistics that I'VE found: http://www.realpitbull.com/perspective.html


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## LionCalie




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## Romad

Just like politics and religion, there are going to be controversial and heated discussions about this breed.

I personally wouldn't take the chance of owning one with a baby in the house. And that stems from my first hand experience of friends who had quote "the sweetest dog on the planet" until it attacked their baby who was in a playpen at the time so baby wasn't tugging it's tail or pulling it's ears.

And no, I don't blame the dog because it's well.... a dog. We can't ask it what made it snap or what provoked it into attack mode.

Can that happen with any other breed? Yup. But when you have personal knowledge of the scenarios like the one I mentioned, it's going to be a losing battle trying to convince me that I would be ok to own one with a newborn baby or toddler around. It will just never happen.


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## Aus

That is a good, responsible site, thanks for the link. I thought this was a great article:

http://www.realpitbull.com/notforeveryone.html


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## wystearya

I wouldn't want one as a pet. I feel like they require a very experienced dog owner. I'm frankly a bit afraid of all large dogs (even labs and other 'friendly' breeds). Unfortunately I don't think that pit bulls are all safe. I do believe that so many have been bred for aggression that it isn't reasonable to say that they are 'safe'. I don't think they are all killers either. But I personally stay away from them because you never know, and they are definitely strong enough to kill.

I used to live beside someone who owned a pit bull. They kept it chained outside a lot. It was NOT friendly. I would not walk on the street in front of their house after that. The chain was attached to a cinder block and the dog could move if it really wanted to. I was glad when they moved away, as I was afraid for myself and my small dog. I keep my dog on a leash at all times, but I was always on the lookout for the pitbull in case it got loose. :/

I don't 'hate' these dogs. And I know there are nice ones out there. I just wouldn't want one as a pet and I am nervous of them.


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## LionCalie

I can understand how a negative experience would make people nervous about Pitbulls. Not everyone has to like them. There was an incident in the city I live in. A man was just standing in a parking lot and was attacked by a few Pits that got loose. It put our small, town-like city into a big debate, because suddenly people came out of the wood work wanting to ban the breed. 

One Pit that was with the group when the attack happened didn't take part in the mauling, so many folks like myself felt he shouldn't be euthanized like the others. Tia Torris from Villalobos Rescue Center (Pit bulls and Parolees) went to court to rescue him. She was allowed to save him, but he was put on the dog version of "probation". Last I heard he was finally able to be adopted.


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## Olympia

That's totally normal. It's a powerful breed that has been over abused in the past.

Pit bulls are ***** cats compared to some dog breeds. Dogo Argentino, Caucasian Ovcharka, tosa inus, fila braselieros. The fila braseliero is the only dog breed where the judge is not allowed to touch the dog AT ALL. That is how they should be around strangers. Dogos and Filas can and will kill jaguars in their native lands, the cat with the most powerful bite force. Filas are left to babysit young children in Brazil. Intensely loyal dogs. Tosa Inu used to be the "pit bulls" of Japan, bred to fight for entertainment. These are huge powerful dogs. The difference is that these are rare breeds, and NO breeder would sell them to an idiot who can't handle one. I feel like this is how pit bulls should be treated. Sadly, there are so many, and mixes of them, that this really isn't possible without serious action from the government. And I doubt the government is going to go through all this just so people can have a dog they want. Until dog fighting stops completely, there isn't much hope, since they will continue to be bred for aggressiveness. Many once aggressive breeds, like Dobies, have been bred down back to calm family pets to be more welcome in the modern day. I think breeders of pure registered pits should (and I'm sure they all do) have this as their main focus. :/


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## FishyFishy89

Ive seen aggressive dogs handled by a different person and the dog's aggression is COMPLETELY gone.
Same with a disobedient dog being handled by a different person. It happened while at the dog park today. Someone was having an issue controlling both dogs at the same time. I asked if she wanted a hand and she handed me the brindle dog. That dog became a complete angel while it's friend lunged at everything. She thought she was going insane. Traded dogs with me and then the brindle was lunging and the one she was leading was walking right beside me.


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## Granberry

revolutionrocknroll said:


> Eh, I guess it's individual choice. If I had a child and I cared about it and my dog attacked it for no reason, then I would get rid of the dog. But if the kid was doing something to hurt, frighten, or annoy the dog, I would have seen the warning signs and told the kid to stop, but if I hadn't, and the dog snapped at the kid to tell it to back off, then there's a reason and the problem wouldn't be that the dog is aggressive, it would be that there wasn't proper supervision and you just have to make sure you're paying attention when the kid and dog are together.
> 
> I just don't think that it's completely fair to call the owner stupid when you don't know the circumstances.
> 
> Edit: Here are statistics that I'VE found: A Dose of Reality


I don't know if you have kids or not, but until you have raised a toddler, you can't really understand what you're saying about "eh, the kid will learn to respect animals". It isn't a matter of learning, of misbehaving children. It's just children! They're uncoordinated. They fall, they grab floppy things, they don't understand their own weight. We would never say, "well, if they play in the street, they'll learn to respect cars". . Cars have to follow laws to avoid running over children. whether children are careless or not. Our society protects children against the foolishness of their youth. 

Pit bulls are ridiculously strong animals. A few years back in our state, a 3-year-old put his hand through a hole in his fence, and the pit bull on the other side bit his hand and yanked his arm. off. Completely severed it. Moore Boy Recovers From Pit Bull Attack - Oklahoma City News Story - KOCO Oklahoma City 

I don't see how anyone could say that a dog that is capable of pulling a 3-year-old's arm off by biting his hand and jerking it through a fence is something we want to allow in a residential community at all, ever. And I can't believe anyone with any experience with children would seriously say, "well, the kid was teasing him". 

Just to tell my own little story, I owned a rottweiler, Bogey, for eight years. My two oldest kids were preschoolers when we bought him, but then I had another baby after we'd got him, so I ended up with a baby and a rottweiler in the house, not ideal but unavoidable. Bogey did great in obedience training, and was a good mellow dog,. Still, I'm really protective of the kids, so I was vigilant. One day my youngest son who was about 4 by then dropped a square slice of cheese and it plopped in front of Bogey. They both reached for it, and Bogey barked a couple of very loud warning barks, took a step forward, and got the cheese.. A chill went up my spine, and we euthanized Bogey a few days later. I bawled, the kids bawled, my husband bawled, but I don't regret it. He was too big, too strong and too grumpy in his old age and my son was too little, too uncoordinated. I would never, ever have responded, "See son? That's why we respect dogs". It was sad, but of course it's what's right. Children come first, no matter what price.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> I don't know if you have kids or not, but until you have raised a toddler, you can't really understand what you're saying about "eh, the kid will learn to respect animals". It isn't a matter of learning, of misbehaving children. It's just children! They're uncoordinated. They fall, they grab floppy things, they don't understand their own weight. We would never say, "well, if they play in the street, they'll learn to respect cars". . Cars have to follow laws to avoid running over children. whether children are careless or not. Our society protects children against the foolishness of their youth.
> 
> Pit bulls are ridiculously strong animals. A few years back in our state, a 3-year-old put his hand through a hole in his fence, and the pit bull on the other side bit his hand and yanked his arm. off. Completely severed it. Moore Boy Recovers From Pit Bull Attack - Oklahoma City News Story - KOCO Oklahoma City
> 
> I don't see how anyone could say that a dog that is capable of pulling a 3-year-old's arm off by biting his hand and jerking it through a fence is something we want to allow in a residential community at all, ever. And I can't believe anyone with any experience with children would seriously say, "well, the kid was teasing him".
> 
> Just to tell my own little story, I owned a rottweiler, Bogey, for eight years. My two oldest kids were preschoolers when we bought him, but then I had another baby after we'd got him, so I ended up with a baby and a rottweiler in the house, not ideal but unavoidable. Bogey did great in obedience training, and was a good mellow dog,. Still, I'm really protective of the kids, so I was vigilant. One day my youngest son who was about 4 by then dropped a square slice of cheese and it plopped in front of Bogey. They both reached for it, and Bogey barked a couple of very loud warning barks, took a step forward, and got the cheese.. A chill went up my spine, and we euthanized Bogey a few days later. I bawled, the kids bawled, my husband bawled, but I don't regret it. He was too big, too strong and too grumpy in his old age and my son was too little, too uncoordinated. I would never, ever have responded, "See son? That's why we respect dogs". It was sad, but of course it's what's right. Children come first, no matter what price.


okay
how old was this dog?
he could of very easily been rehomed to someone else.


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## Olympia

Which is why a powerful breed needs a powerful owner with a strong will. A dog needs to be put in it's place, especially a large breed. It's not oh we'll hurt his feelings. A dog needs to be treated like a dog and shown who's boss. :/ call me old fashioned and cruel, but I'd have rather sharply corrected that dog and put him into submission than just gave him up. A dog that knows it's the lowest member of the family would never dare harm any child, even over food. Our boxer that gets attacked by my little cousins just walks away- a proper response to not wanting to deal with a child. Granted she never was human aggressive, but any dog can be taught it's place in the family..


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> Which is why a powerful breed needs a powerful owner with a strong will. A dog needs to be put in it's place, especially a large breed. It's not oh we'll hurt his feelings. A dog needs to be treated like a dog and shown who's boss. :/ call me old fashioned and cruel, but I'd have rather sharply corrected that dog and put him into submission than just gave him up. A dog that knows it's the lowest member of the family would never dare harm any child, even over food. Our boxer that gets attacked by my little cousins just walks away- a proper response to not wanting to deal with a child. Granted she never was human aggressive, but any dog can be taught it's place in the family..


totally agree with you!!
This is why every member of my family will be involved in training.
When we got Emma, hubs did not want to contribute to training every weekend. As as result, Emma only listens to me. Sometimes I love it. But I get frustrated with it because she basically treats hubs and everyone else lower than her.


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## LionCalie

Granberry said:


> I don't see how anyone could say that a dog that is capable of pulling a 3-year-old's arm off by biting his hand and jerking it through a fence is something we want to allow in a residential community at all, ever.


This is the kind of attitude I have a problem with. Lets lump all Pit bulls as undeserving and vicious. I work with a woman who had her arm ripped off by a run away horse. Those are big powerful animals too, but they are individuals and should be treated as such.


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## Granberry

FishyFishy89 said:


> okay
> how old was this dog?
> he could of very easily been rehomed to someone else.


He was 8. When I was at the vet's having him put to sleep, a vet tech came in and whispered that said she'd take him off my hands and had land and several rotts. It annoyed me to no end that she would second guess my judgment. He was ours, and we were his, and it would have been cruel to rehome him. He would have been disoriented and confused to leave the only home he had ever known at his age (8 is pretty old for a rott). And letting him age at home wasn't an option for a strong, heavy dog who wasn't aging "gracefully" and lives with a 4-year-old. 

The topic I was responding to was the idea of expecting children to "learn from their mistakes" in the context of really big strong dogs. It's an unreasonable defense and an irresponsible attitude to propagate. 

My husband is a police captain in the city where this child's arm was severed, which is why I remembered it and Googled it. The pit owners were awful, said they weren't sorry, and raised a huge ruckus that 4 of their pits were put down who "didn't even bite anyone" (apparently not getting it that their dogs were taken from them because they were such crappy owners and euthanized because they are unadoptable). They were on the news channels saying "the child was teasing them!" as if that was an excuse. The child was 3, not to mention standing in his own back yard with a stockade fence between him and his neighbors' several dogs. If he got his arm bitten off by a police dog, you can guarantee I'd be outraged. If he got his arm bitten off by a tiger living in someone's back yard, I'd complain that tigers are too capable of hurting someone to keep in a residential neighborhood. Same with the dog that it was. 

I haven't ever bred or rehomed a dog. Here's a picture of my present dogs, except we put the Chihuahua down last year.


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## registereduser

The most recent dog eats baby story I've seen was a husky.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> He was 8. When I was at the vet's having him put to sleep, a vet tech came in and whispered that said she'd take him off my hands and had land and several rotts. It annoyed me to no end that she would second guess my judgment. He was ours, and we were his, and it would have been cruel to rehome him. He would have been disoriented and confused to leave the only home he had ever known at his age (8 is pretty old for a rott). And letting him age at home wasn't an option for a strong, heavy dog who wasn't aging "gracefully" and lives with a 4-year-old.
> 
> The topic I was responding to was the idea of expecting children to "learn from their mistakes" in the context of really big strong dogs. It's an unreasonable defense and an irresponsible attitude to propagate.
> 
> My husband is police captain in the city where this child's arm was severed, which is why I remembered it and Googled it. The pit owners were awful, said they weren't sorry, and raised a huge ruckus that 4 of their pits were put down who "didn't even bite anyone" and were on the news channels saying "the child was teasing them!" as if that was an excuse. The child was 3. If he got his arm bit off by a police dog, you can guarantee I'd be outraged. If he got his arm bitten off by a tiger living in someone's back yard, I'd complain that tigers are too capable of hurting someone to keep in a residential neighborhood. Same with the dog that it was.
> 
> I haven't ever bred or rehomed a dog. Here's a picture of my present dogs, except we put the Chihuahua down last year.


He still had a decent amount of years ahead of him. You easily could of relinquished him to a shelter and he would of gone to another home.
I think it was a bit cruel to put a dog to sleep just because he barked at your child as they were both reaching for the same piece of food.
There were 2 better decisions you could of made:
1: discipline the dog and teach him his place is a BELOW the children.
2: relinquish him at a shelter.


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## LionCalie

Granberry - Your dogs are adorable.


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## Granberry

FishyFishy89 said:


> He still had a decent amount of years ahead of him. You easily could of relinquished him to a shelter and he would of gone to another home.
> I think it was a bit cruel to put a dog to sleep just because he barked at your child as they were both reaching for the same piece of food.
> There were 2 better decisions you could of made:
> 1: discipline the dog and teach him his place is a BELOW the children.
> 2: relinquish him at a shelter.


I wholeheartedly disagree that relinquishing an 8-year-old Rottweiler to a shelter is kinder than euthanizing him. It's insane. He would be disoriented and fearful away from us, his pack. The shelter isn't exactly running out of Rottweilers available for adoption or overflowing with money for food. Most importantly, we would have worried about him. 

I think you need to pause and check yourself to see if you really feel like it's proper for you to be judging a hard decision like that. Dogs have to be put to sleep. It's hard. Responsible owners do it. You need to be very careful telling someone they did it wrong. It doesn't bother me, mind you. I kind of am enjoying the exchange of ideas. But other people are sensitive to that.

However, more to the poster's point, Bogey, despite his formal obedience training, years of living in the house with our family of 5, and just generally being a good old guy, had become grumpy and acted in a way that I deemed threatening to a 4-year-old. I would not expect my child to learn to behave better or deserve to get scratched, bitten, or whatever. It's my place to protect the child, even at the expense of the dog, and that's what we did. We often wish we had him now that our kids are grown; we could have kept him longer.

PS: Thanks LionCalie!

Okay, I've said my piece (again!)...I'll try to tie my fingers together or something.


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## Olympia

I do understand this as well.. If you personally felt he was too much, putting him to sleep would have been way better than leaving him in a shelter.. Most old dogs never get adopted and just wait out however long they have until they are put to sleep anyways. :/ no one really wants any dog over 6-7 years. It's sad but it's true.. No one wants to get attached to a dog that might only live another year. There are just far too many young active adoptable dogs that will always get picked first.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree that relinquishing an 8-year-old Rottweiler to a shelter is kinder than euthanizing him. It's insane. He would be disoriented and fearful away from us, his pack. The shelter isn't exactly running out of Rottweilers available for adoption or overflowing with money for food. Most importantly, we would have worried about him.
> 
> I think you need to pause and check yourself to see if you really feel like it's proper for you to be judging a hard decision like that. Dogs have to be put to sleep. It's hard. Responsible owners do it. You need to be very careful telling someone they did it wrong. It doesn't bother me, mind you. I kind of am enjoying the exchange of ideas. But other people are sensitive to that.
> 
> However, more to the poster's point, Bogey, despite his formal obedience training, years of living in the house with our family of 5, and just generally being a good old guy, had become grumpy and acted in a way that I deemed threatening to a 4-year-old. I would not expect my child to learn to behave better or deserve to get scratched, bitten, or whatever. It's my place to protect the child, even at the expense of the dog, and that's what we did. We often wish we had him now that our kids are grown; we could have kept him longer.
> 
> PS: Thanks LionCalie!
> 
> Okay, I've said my piece (again!)...I'll try to tie my fingers together or something.


Trust me, he wouldn't spend long at a shelter and would of been adopted in a heart beat. Or craigslist posting with the intent of adding a "rehoming fee" would of worked.
How would you feel if someone ended your life because you "said something mean to a child"?


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## registereduser

FishyFishy89 said:


> How would you feel if someone ended your life because you "said something mean to a child"?


I'd be dead many times over, can't stand kids :mrgreen:


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## MollyJean

Alright, it was a little hard to put together, but did I just read that right? You put down your dog.. You KILLED your dog, because he barked at your son. You didn't try to correct the action. You didn't consider giving the dog a new home... you chose to kill the dog?

My pit, Sadie, is a part of my family. She's been by my side day and night since I got her. She's taught my daughter how to care for an animal. She wanted to buy the dog treats and toys, so she took her birthday money and put it in her own bank account (in my name, of course) and my daughter... my 10 year old daughter puts money in that account every week. She's learned so much, and being part of the training process has taught her even more.

I have a kid, and I love her very much, but a bark wouldn't be enough to get rid of (let alone kill) a dog. It would take a little more then that. Was there something you left out? Like did the dog bark at visitors, or snap at people and you had heard the bark before and knew it was bad news? Was there more then a bark to make you think the dog would bite?

And why did you have to "Put down" the other dog? Same reason?

...


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## Sena Hansler

MollyJean I love that "smiling" picture of the dog!!! hahaha so cute!!!


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> Alright, it was a little hard to put together, but did I just read that right? You put down your dog.. You KILLED your dog, because he barked at your son. You didn't try to correct the action. You didn't consider giving the dog a new home... you chose to kill the dog?
> 
> My pit, Sadie, is a part of my family. She's been by my side day and night since I got her. She's taught my daughter how to care for an animal. She wanted to buy the dog treats and toys, so she took her birthday money and put it in her own bank account (in my name, of course) and my daughter... my 10 year old daughter puts money in that account every week. She's learned so much, and being part of the training process has taught her even more.
> 
> I have a kid, and I love her very much, but a bark wouldn't be enough to get rid of (let alone kill) a dog. It would take a little more then that. Was there something you left out? Like did the dog bark at visitors, or snap at people and you had heard the bark before and knew it was bad news? Was there more then a bark to make you think the dog would bite?
> 
> And why did you have to "Put down" the other dog? Same reason?
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you.
Grumpy old dog or not. He deserved a second chance.


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## MollyJean

I'll stop there. I can't stand speaking about it anymore, it's upsetting me too much. I'm not a dog person, but I've had a few, and they're not pets to most people, they're family. And I would never consider killing grandma over putting her in a home when she became too much for me.

And all of this is beside the point. What does any of this have to do with normal people and pitbulls being banned and sensationalized.


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## Sena Hansler

My opinion on that... Well, what I do with adopting out any animals I come across (I am getting a rescue guinea who was left outside 18 hours ago, in CEDAR bedding, little food, no water, and FILTH of a glorified litterbox), is see the people, their kids, their house. I like to KNOW what the animal will have as a home. Jo-Jo, my guinea's surprise baby, is going to his new home tomorrow, and that is what I am doing. That way, it is less worry (one person was so happy I own guineas, so she knew the guinea would have good care! and I supplied pictures and diet, and bedding info).

But, just my opinion


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## MollyJean

Thanks, Sena. Sadie loves the camera, she's a ham.


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## Sena Hansler

:lol:


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## Bombalurina

I kind of agree with Granberry. My first reaction was "You cruel heartless person, you put your dog down for that?!" But then I thougt about it, and I'm sure Granberry disciplined the dog and thought long and hard making the decision. When a dog has shown aggression to your child, can you trust it again? Also, I highly doubt that an 8-year-old Rottie would have been rehomed in a snap. People don't want old dogs - they want cute little puppies. They don't usually want big breeds like Rotties, they want smaller, easier to manage ones. With no guarantee of another loving home, and no way to know if you can trust the animal with your children, I think it may have been the better decision. I don't think Granberry did it on a whim, to be cruel. He/she did it with a heavy heart in an attempt to do what was best for everyone. 

I don't tend to stereotype by breeds (although it does of course inform my behaviour around dogs). I have known labs who have been lovely. My godfather had a black lab that I used to lie on the floor with, with my head on his chest, and he was the sweetest thing ever. Then we looked after a black lab from across the road. We later found out he had bitten the children in that family several times - after we had finished sitting for him. Whilst he was with us, he was in the kitchen watching my mum slice bread. My sister entered the kitchen behind him and stroked him on the head. With no warning, he turned around and bit her very savagely in the stomach. She was 6 years old at the time. 
They still didn't put him down, despite his proven aggression. I'd rather they had put him down when he bit their daughter, rather than see him savage my little sister.


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> Thanks, Sena. Sadie loves the camera, she's a ham.


So is Emma Demma xD
These are from my profile on HGS
























Cept for this one. I just HAD to upload it from today's doggie park visit xD


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## Bombalurina

Dog life jackets...that is gorgeous. And a very good idea.


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## FishyFishy89

Bombalurina said:


> Dog life jackets...that is gorgeous. And a very good idea.


shes a Labrador in a pug's body. Absolutely loves water. She swims great but I don't wanna take the chance


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## dramaqueen

I've read a little bit about Pitbulls and what I've read is that they need responsible owners, need proper training and socialization. I've also heard from people who own them that they're very sweet and loving dogs. But like someone else already said, chihuahuas can be mean, too.


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## MollyJean

FishyFishy89 said:


> shes a Labrador in a pug's body. Absolutely loves water. She swims great but I don't wanna take the chance


Don't blame you there. Pugs have unpredictable noses, lol.

I can't wait to get Sadie in the water. She's gotten used to baths, but a lake? Can't wait!


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## FishyFishy89

dramaqueen said:


> I've read a little bit about Pitbulls and what I've read is that they need responsible owners, need proper training and socialization. I've also heard from people who own them that they're very sweet and loving dogs. But like someone else already said, chihuahuas can be mean, too.


In my experience dogs like chihuahuas can be worse than pit bulls, dobermans, rottis, etc when paired with children.


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> Don't blame you there. Pugs have unpredictable noses, lol.
> 
> I can't wait to get Sadie in the water. She's gotten used to baths, but a lake? Can't wait!


I wanna get Emma on a boat!!!!
She loves her baths, always hops into the shower with me
And shes always getting into trouble when your not paying enough attention to her xD


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## MollyJean

FishyFishy89 said:


> I wanna get Emma on a boat!!!!
> She loves her baths, always hops into the shower with me
> And shes always getting into trouble when your not paying enough attention to her xD


Sadie rarely gets in trouble.. get this.

We had put a baby gate up between the living room and the kitchen. The last thing I need is a doggy underfoot when I'm cooking. After a couple weeks we took away the gate and replaced it with a 1 foot tall wire grate that came out of my daughter's closet. (Was being used as a shelf). All the time, teaching her not to go past it. She never once tried to jump it or knock it over, even after the point she could easily step (not jump) over it. So we removed it and I put down a strip of masking tape.. and she won't pass it. Even when her toys roll across. I put masking tape between the living room and the hall to see if I could keep her in the living room and she won't pass it. It makes me laugh when she looks at me as if saying "Mommy.. please get my ball?"


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## kfryman

We have two pit mixes at my house. They are both sisters and have been with each other besides some walks and when they were adopted. My sister got one then felt bad for the other one. The last one she got is the one that looks like a pit. She is wasn't more obedient than the other one but does have dog problems, especially with random dogs.

For people saying that a dog is dangerous because of what task it was bred to do. They are pit. and rhodesion ridgeback. If anyone knows, ridgebacks were bred to hunt lions in Africa. Yeah that is right, they are still friendly though.

Then my sister's boyfriend, his mom has a Chihuahua, she is so damn mean and has less memory than a goldfish lol. Bits from big dogs hurt more, but small dogs are always biting people. As said before, wouldn't the media look silly for saying Chihuahua Bites Person, of course and since pits are associated with dog fighting they say aggressive dog attack, we have a story. It really annoys me though.

Two shows to watch Pitbulls and Parolees and Pit boss. The Pit Boss is a show with little people that run a rescue in Hollywood. They can handle the dogs and the dogs are probably less weigh but have twice the muscle.


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## Aus

As a mother, my opinion is: the welfare of kids come first, the end. What kind of parent would I be, if my kids did -not- come first? 

This is why I never kept any kind of aggressive breed once my child came along (I've owned dobermanns, bull terriers and mixed molosser types in the past, and a kid-safe kelpie later on). 

There's no sane reason I can see to keep a proven child-aggressive dog alive and in a home with kids in it. And I'd probably not rehome one in case it bit someone else's children. 

And hey, if Grandma bit my kid in the face, I'd probably spare a thought to having her euthanised. Re-homed, at the least. :twisted:


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## Granberry

Short answers are probably appropriate for this time of night...

1. Mollyjean asked what the discussion of euthanizing pets who are perceived to be a threat to children in the home has to do with the OP, i.e., Pitbulls are hated for no reason. The answer is that somebody offered a theory that children who are rough with dogs will learn respect for animals if they suffer a bite or scratch. That led to a discussion of the need to protect children from bites versus the lessons learned from them as well as the magnitude of risk from a dog that can bite a child's arm off versus a dog that is little. My position is children matter the most, enough to euthanize your pet if it's a risk to them. Someone else said they wouldn't euthanize their grandmother if she was mean to the kids and dogs are people too. It kind of all went to pot from there. 

2. Somebody inquired why I put my sweet retired show dog Chihuahua down (one major away from her championship!). The short answer is that it was a family decision, and it was the right one. She was 14, toothless, nearly blind, and at 1.5 pounds was a walking skeleton. Call me crazy, but I didn't feel relinquishing her to the shelter was humane. 

3. FishyFishy, I'm not going to argue with you about your thought that my grumpy old Rottweiler deserved a second chance and would have been "snapped up in a minute!" by an adopter. I'll just compliment your heart for animals and suspect someday your heart for your children may change your mind. But I agree, Bogey was a great dog. 

The pugs in lifejackets were quite cute, BTW.


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## MollyJean

Aus said:


> There's no sane reason I can see to keep a proven child-aggressive dog alive and in a home with kids in it. And I'd probably not rehome one in case it bit someone else's children.


Agreed. If it was proven to be a danger to the children... Of course. It needs to go. But even then, I don't see why you would have it killed. Just seems very extreme to me. With the dog in question, it wasn't a proven danger.. it that point it was a perceived danger. And if the owner had kids, then, well, call me crazy, but logic tells me re-homing the dog into a house without kids would be an option. I love my kids, but I love my dog enough that, if I couldn't care for her anymore, I would do everything I could to find someone able to care for her before even considering putting her down.


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> Sadie rarely gets in trouble.. get this.
> 
> We had put a baby gate up between the living room and the kitchen. The last thing I need is a doggy underfoot when I'm cooking. After a couple weeks we took away the gate and replaced it with a 1 foot tall wire grate that came out of my daughter's closet. (Was being used as a shelf). All the time, teaching her not to go past it. She never once tried to jump it or knock it over, even after the point she could easily step (not jump) over it. So we removed it and I put down a strip of masking tape.. and she won't pass it. Even when her toys roll across. I put masking tape between the living room and the hall to see if I could keep her in the living room and she won't pass it. It makes me laugh when she looks at me as if saying "Mommy.. please get my ball?"


Emma's a crumb monster. Just the slightest piece of people food makes her sick. We're also moving to a new apartment that has a larger kitchen walkway/I threw out the extensions to the doggie gate:rofl:
Lord have mercy if I'll have to buy a whole new gate


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## MollyJean

FishyFishy89 said:


> Emma's a crumb monster. Just the slightest piece of people food makes her sick. We're also moving to a new apartment that has a larger kitchen walkway/I threw out the extensions to the doggie gate:rofl:
> Lord have mercy if I'll have to buy a whole new gate


Oh! If it's a large space, go to a thrift store or junk store and find a gate from a baby bed. You know the wood ones? We have two in the house for when we want to confine Sadie to one room, because my house is FULL of archways and it's the only thing that spans all the way across.


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## Granberry

MollyJean said:


> Agreed. If it was proven to be a danger to the children... Of course. It needs to go. But even then, I don't see why you would have it killed. Just seems very extreme to me. With the dog in question, it wasn't a proven danger.. it that point it was a perceived danger. And if the owner had kids, then, well, call me crazy, but logic tells me re-homing the dog into a house without kids would be an option. I love my kids, but I love my dog enough that, if I couldn't care for her anymore, I would do everything I could to find someone able to care for her before even considering putting her down.


Molly, of course I believed he was a danger. I had kept a rottweiler in my house for 8 years. We had taken him through multiple obedience courses. I had 3 children who adored their family dog. I had invested so much money in that dog because we loved him. What sane person would just up and euthanize a family pet for fun? 

I swore I wouldn't explain this again, but my son dropped some food, they both went for it. Bogey's expected behavior was to back off. Humans are alpha, and we get the food. He didn't. He barked an ear-ringing warning bark and took a step towards a 4-year-old then took the food. Food aggressive dogs and 4-year-olds don't mix, and I didn't trust him any more. 

This really isn't something you should be taking a stand on. 

I would really feel better if you were on the side of prevention of harm to children instead of not euthanizing a dog at all costs. But it is that same attitude that is making a lot of the voters out there just decide you're all way off base in your priorities and we're going to support legislation that protects our livestock and kids from your mistakes.

This is a crappy picture, but geez, everyone is worrying about my Bogey so much I thought I'd reassure you he was loved.


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> Oh! If it's a large space, go to a thrift store or junk store and find a gate from a baby bed. You know the wood ones? We have two in the house for when we want to confine Sadie to one room, because my house is FULL of archways and it's the only thing that spans all the way across.


I considered those. But between me, hubs, brother in law and BFF we'd all knock over that gate and get really frustrated with it. That and Emma is super smart. She'll realize how easy it is to knock it over and get into the kitchen when we're not home.
I've tried keeping the kitchen really clean too. Sweeping every time we deal with food. She always finds something!!!
We have this:
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10957720&lmdn=Dog+Auto+Travel+Gates+and+Door
It says extensions can be purchased separately 
These almost look like the same product, but the brand isn't the same
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755319&lmdn=Dog+Auto+Travel+Gates+and+Door


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## FishyFishy89

found them
YAY!


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## MollyJean

Sorry... I agree that you should kill a dog if it causes harm. But the dog didn't hurt anyone. It could have been rehomed and gone another 5 or six happy years without ever hurting anyone. It really seems like you jumped to conclusions and took the most rash course of action. You could have just as easily kept your children from harm by removing the dog from your house -without- killing it.


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## MollyJean

FishyFishy89 said:


> I considered those. But between me, hubs, brother in law and BFF we'd all knock over that gate and get really frustrated with it. That and Emma is super smart. She'll realize how easy it is to knock it over and get into the kitchen when we're not home.
> I've tried keeping the kitchen really clean too. Sweeping every time we deal with food. She always finds something!!!
> We have this:
> http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10957720&lmdn=Dog+Auto+Travel+Gates+and+Door
> It says extensions can be purchased separately
> These almost look like the same product, but the brand isn't the same
> http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755319&lmdn=Dog+Auto+Travel+Gates+and+Door


A cat door!? OMG that's so awesome! One of my kittys is special needs and can't jump very well, which is part of the reason we decided to back down from gates to just tape on the ground.


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> A cat door!? OMG that's so awesome! One of my kittys is special needs and can't jump very well, which is part of the reason we decided to back down from gates to just tape on the ground.


If I could trust Emma to not go into the kitchen when we're gone, then I'd love to teach her the tape trick. She is very smart and I'm sure she'd catch onto it in a heartbeat. 
But that nose and tummy gets the better of her. YUMMY CAT FOOD. YUMMY SOME GROUND BEEF THAT HAS SLIPPED UNDER THE OVEN. OH BREAD CRUMBS!!! nom nom nom nom nom


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## freemike

I don't like to stereotype breeds. I do think with certain breeds their needs to be more responsibility such as laws taken to ensure they have proper homes. I know people like to make the distinction that well Chihuahua and other possessive dogs go bad. Well there is a big difference between stopping 7-16lb Chihuahua and a 35-80lb pit/pit mix dog with aggression problems. Pits were raised/bred as protective dogs originally and some people have twisted them into fighting dogs.

This has lead to a breed that needs to be closely monitored in my opinion. These dogs instinctively know quite well how to take down prey and creatures including humans that it feels is crossing into it's territory. People shouldn't be allowed to have dogs of this nature because they think it's cute. If you want to get a dog because you think it's cute get a Chihuahua so when it gets loose and acts like an untrained/mishandled dog I can kick it off my ankle or pick it up by the nap of it's neck and bring it back to you and tell you what piece of crap dog owner you are. Another thing is even if it isn't human some of these dogs that are kept in solitary confinement as many of them are when they do get out don't know how to react to other animals.

Don't get me wrong I love the dogs I think they have a very distinguished bold look to them. Having said this I will not have one until I am prepared to raise it from a pup as I have done with all my large dogs. My dream dog is a Presa Canario and can be human aggressive but it has to be trained properly and given a proper environment. Some people don't have the self control not to get a dog that is capable of inflicting major injuries and is hard to stop once they decide to go after something/body that they are NOT prepared to house and train properly. I've had several large dogs and NONE of them left my house without ME and a LEASH. Not even the popular "good" dogs. Personally I feel like half the people I know with Pits should be re-homed and given Chihuahuas. These people do not realize the strength or tendency those dogs can have when instincts take over. With an improper owner these instincts will take over even in the "good" dogs.

I personally think if a dog weighs over 30lbs it should be mandatory for somebody in the household to be a licensed dog handler to have it regardless of breed. Maybe it's my personal over exposure to "aggressive" dogs that I seen at the animal shelter I volunteered at. I just seen to many "good" dogs that had to be put down because they was mishandled/trained. People bring in the Pits/Mastiff/Husky/Shepard/Rot/Dober... he/she bit at my child... he/she is getting out of control... I can't handle him/her stories. By that time you can't just re-home that dog to even a person that could have been good with that dog from a pup. Those dogs then need a very experienced trainer and many sessions that most people will not invest in when saving a pound dog. You throw the puppies that go to the shelter next to them and those dogs just don't have a chance at a second chance.

I'm a firm believer in:
Give me the pup and I'll give you the dog.


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## Sena Hansler

For me, if I get a large breed dog, it's going to be on a farm, have a job, and have the room to roam, explore, and work


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## Olympia

Hey, Sena, my large dogs quite enjoy the suburbs. Of course we have a huge forest and creek across the street for them :3
Edit: I just sneezed and my dobe pup just look at my like OMG WHAT WAS THAT O.O now she's licking my face xD


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## registereduser

I'm still not clear why Granberry didn't give the dog to the vet tech with a farm, no kids and others Rots? The one who offered a home for him just before you had him killed?

In any case, of course kids come first, but love for kids can also make parents think in an unbalanced way. I can't help but wonder.....we'll never know, none of us were there to observe.

Also, what kinds of tests were done on the dog before the decision was made? Was there anything making his behavior change, like a chemical problem or a brain tumor, etc.? I'm not sure how many tests there are out there that can be done for dogs. Especially all those years ago.

Apparently the four year old child is now an adult with kids of his own. Thus the name GRANberry. 

I'm hoping he does not own any large breed dogs.:shock:


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## tpocicat

I have a wonderful red/white pit bull male named Copper. I trust him with my cats, and other dogs. He is sweet and very loving. I hate it when people just automatically think your dog is vicious because of his breed alone. When the time comes, hopefully in the far far future, I will rescue another pit bull without any fear.


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## Oldfishlady

Granberry said:


> I swore I wouldn't explain this again, but my son dropped some food, they both went for it. Bogey's expected behavior was to back off. Humans are alpha, and we get the food. He didn't. He barked an ear-ringing warning bark and took a step towards a 4-year-old then took the food. Food aggressive dogs and 4-year-olds don't mix, and I didn't trust him any more.
> 
> This really isn't something you should be taking a stand on.
> 
> I would really feel better if you were on the side of prevention of harm to children instead of not euthanizing a dog at all costs. But it is that same attitude that is making a lot of the voters out there just decide you're all way off base in your priorities and we're going to support legislation that protects our livestock and kids from your mistakes..


I agree with you 110% and I would have done the exact same thing....my children safety come first....it only takes a split second for the attack to happen an to wait until after the attack, severe injury or death would be irresponsible......Personally I wouldn't have waited either......

Do you remember the story not long ago about the adult Rot that was re-homed that ate the 3 year old within the first 24h....that was here in Oklahoma too...I think....

I often question why some people think it is more humane to keep a dog in a small cage, limited human contact and play time waiting to be re-homed...that is existing not living......Thousands of pets waiting to be adopted.....Please Spay and neuter your pets.......

I am a major animal lover of all creatures big and small, wild and domesticated...I have plenty myself...lol....but I also know they are animals- instinct driven- not human with human thoughts and emotions-we like to give them-we like to compare them to human children....but they are not....they are animals....without us...Who will care for them...this is why we can't let them kill us or our children......

We also have to remember that a lot of members on this forum are young children, young adult without their own children and these members have a great deal of passion and love for their pets and I respect that as I hope they respect us older folks that protect our children-just as their parents protected them......


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## Pitluvs

Granberry said:


> Pitluvs, I hear what you're saying, and I think you point out some valid considerations very well. I find especially persuasive the fact that Ohio lifted its BSL due to ineffectiveness.
> 
> But when you said, "I would support proper education over banning a breed", I just can't go with you there because I don't believe "proper education" works well enough for me to feel my kids are safe, my pets are safe, or my livestock is safe from dogs as I've described.
> 
> Is it fair? Nope. It isn't fair to good responsible owners. But until breed clubs or somebody can find a way to handle this problem either by generations of selective breeding to weed out traits that we as a community don't deem safe or better control of these awful breeders, then government legislation is the only remedy.
> 
> And BTW in my state we most certainly do have "FSL" , i.e., fish specific legislation.  There are many types of fish that are illegal to sell, dump in ponds or lakes, etc. because we deem them dangerous to native livestock.
> 
> BTW, if I come off as abrasive, please forgive me. I am a retired lawyer, and I never have anything interesting to talk to people about any more because my kids quit listening to me when they went to college and my husband has never listened to me, so I'm just really enjoying this discussion. But I promise I've said my piece now, and I'll zip it.


I don't take you offensively at all, I mean I am kind of upset because it's people with this kinda of mentality that all Pitbulls are the same, interferes greatly with my life. I live in fear, everyday. Is tomorrow going to be the day that some wingnut on a power trip passes a law that will take my dog from my home? This clear cut solution effects everyone, even those who obey the law and raise great dogs. And as long as I'm breathing, I'll fight it. I mean it's like catching a leak with a bucket, just because you toss the water down the drain, doesn't mean you've fixed the leak. You just started all over again. Getting rid of the dogs doesn't solve anything, the problem humans are still there and they will move onto another breed (maybe something with human aggression, more of a threat then a terrier). 

The sad thing is, positive breed groups ARE trying to educate people, but the only ones listening are the ones who are educated. Those who mistreat this breed don't give two flying flutes what these "Pitbull Hippies" have to say, they know better than us and they don't like being told what to do. You know how the human race is, there are people who don't like being told what they are doing is wrong. So yes, our breed groups are trying to fix a problem we didn't even start. Tell the government to let us hang animal abusers, that would help. Right now, you can get away with anything you want to do with an animal. 

Another thing is.. my mothers neighbor poisoned my 3 yr old Rottweiler, Mason, in 2006 with antifreeze. He suffered in pain, scared for 3 days at the vet while we tried everything possible to save him. We ended up gathering around him, all holding onto him while the vet euthanized him, $3000 later. His ashes remain in a Rottweiler urn I bought for him, sitting in my mothers living room. We'll never be the same, my whole family weeps at the sight of a photo or the mention of his name. He was killed because my neighbor didn't like his breed, he felt threatened and didn't want Mason around when his grandkids were over. Not one time did that low life ever ask us if Mason was friendly, or if he was good around kids. Mason loved everyone, I truly believe he was a little gay honestly. But because he was black with copper markings, he was a monster that needed to be killed. What you suggest really hits me hard, because you may feel like you're protect your family and pets.. but I'm protecting mine as well. And someone who thinks the same way once harmed my family so deeply, we'll never recover from it  If you'd like, here is a letter my then 16 year old sister wrote to Mason after he passed. This is what will happen to families if BSL is passed, it's what's happened already. I could never put that much pain and hurt on someone


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## Pitluvs

I just read through the post and I have to say I have lost all respect for certain people on here. I'm out of this topic. This is the reason I love my Pitbull, because she's not a one sided judgmental person who basis everything on personal experience and doesn't take 5 minutes of their day to get to know dogs for their individual personalities. Why don't we make a thread about African Americans so people can bash the whole race because one black man may have shot someone in their home town? Seems kinda ridiculous, and so does this.

To make that more clear, my Pitbull judges no one and loves everyone she meets. Some humans could learn a lesson from her. My own mother taught me not to judge people by race, or animals by breeds but each person and animal as individuals. And with that, I will teach my children the same way.


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## FishyFishy89

Pitluvs said:


> I just read through the post and I have to say I have lost all respect for certain people on here. I'm out of this topic. This is the reason I love my Pitbull, because she's not a one sided judgmental person who basis everything on personal experience and doesn't take 5 minutes of their day to get to know dogs for their individual personalities. Why don't we make a thread about African Americans so people can bash the whole race because one black man may have shot someone in their home town? Seems kinda ridiculous, and so does this.
> 
> To make that more clear, my Pitbull judges no one and loves everyone she meets. Some humans could learn a lesson from her. My own mother taught me not to judge people by race, or animals by breeds but each person and animal as individuals. And with that, I will teach my children the same way.


I'm sorry you had to lose your respect for everyone on this forum.
But every single person has their own opinion and not everyone is going to think exactly like you.


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## Pitluvs

FishyFishy89 said:


> I'm sorry you had to lose your respect for everyone on this forum.
> But every single person has their own opinion and not everyone is going to think exactly like you.


Not everyone, some. There are tons of great people on this board and I would never group everyone because there are some bad apples lol Everyone has opinions, that's correct but there's a tactful way to voice your opinion.


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## freemike

Pitluvs I think the problem is most of the Pitbull advocators are all for the education and not for any legislation. I don't think it is hate, but people are realizing what these dogs can do in the wrong hands. These dogs can become aggressive. I've never met a dog that isn't capable of aggression. I used to work with my uncle training military/police dogs over the summer when I was out of school. Even the sweetest Shepherds we could get to take down a man by tapping into its instinct. To be honest with you most of the time it was easier to train them to attack than to get to listen to the reprieve commands. It's not just Pits it's every breed of dog.

I'm just curious how your neighbor poisoned your dog? I'm hoping if he broke into your house, fenced off yard, or trespassed in some way you pressed charges. I'm really sorry you lost your dog, but at the same time if he was roaming around I can't blame your neighbor's action for Mason's death. I had 3 Shepherds that lived with me unfortunately I had to relocate 2 years ago and send them to my uncle's house to live. They had woods that we went hiking through and a 3 acre backyard that was fenced off with 10 foot fencing under lock and key with signs warning of the dogs. Now my Shepherds weren't trained to attack or guard I raised them as my pets. I don't believe they would ever hurt anyone, but I do NOT know how they would act if a stranger or got in or they got out if their handler (me) wasn't around. So I treated them like dogs. Did that mean I loved them less, no of course not... I just respected what they were.

This next bit applies to most species of animals. Most people get animals because they think they are cute, cuddly, and other merits that do not actually define them as animals. They should not be thought of as your family. I know we can get attached to them as much as family, but they are pets and animals. They are not human and do not have the cognitive abilities that we possess. These people get these animals and do not know how to properly care for them, properly house them, or how to train/handle them in social situations.

The problem with these breeds is people get some education. They hear oh not all Pitts are bad and go get one. They don't realize to properly train them takes more effort than other dogs. This is the reason when a kid gets attacked in his own home by his "pet", you have idiots on the news saying "We never thought he would ever hurt our kid. We have no clue how this happen. He always showed love and even played with them." Well I do know how it happened you're an idiot when it comes to raising a dog and should have never had that dog to begin with.


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## tpocicat

All I have to add is that when my pit was a puppy, people were happy to pet him and make a fuss over him, and of course he loved it! Now that he is an adult, people will actually cross the street to get away from the horrible pit bull! Same dog, same love, when people act this way it only confuses him. He thinks he's a lapdog.

It's not the dog that is wrong, it is the human that doesn't train him/her correctly.


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## Aluyasha

freemike said:


> This next bit applies to most species of animals. Most people get animals because they think they are cute, cuddly, and other merits that do not actually define them as animals. They should not be thought of as your family. I know we can get attached to them as much as family, but they are pets and animals. They are not human and do not have the cognitive abilities that we possess. These people get these animals and do not know how to properly care for them, properly house them, or how to train/handle them in social situations.


 I see all my pets as family. Not in the sense that I treat them like people and they become brats. But even though I feel they are my family I know they are my animal, not human, family.
And it is understandable why people feel they are family. There was a study done on human brain hormone levels. They found that when a human pets and cuddles a dog they release the same hormones as when they hold a newborn human baby, they found that the dog also released the same hormones. 
(There was a show that featured it, I believe it was NatGeo's Science of Dogs). Good show. lol


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## Bombalurina

For you guys who own pits, I kind of know how you feel to a much lesser extent. There have recently been some cases of rat bite fever in Australia from domestic rats. Those who read the title of the article are convinced that all domestic rats are evil bitey little creatures who will give you diseases and ought to be banned or killed. Those who read the whole article know that the cases resulted from the owners contacting rat saliva after they kissed their rats' fur. Who doesn't kiss their animal on the top of the head when cuddling them? Anyway, my point is, people judge without ever bothering to get to know the breed. My friends make jokes about mudering my rats or feeding them to cats, or simply refuse to come to my house. Those that have come over and met my rats and given them a chance all agree that they are total sweethearts, very cute and intelligent. 
People have a lot of stereotypes about breeds.

I do think there should be legislation ensuring that pitbulls are only owned by competent people, but unfortunately the people that obey the legislation are the people who didn't need it in the first place.  Then again, I think that about all dogs...all animals, even.


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## Granberry

I read your sister's letter to Mason, and though it was heartbreaking, it was rewarding too. It made me feel good that Mason's painful death was just a few days of an otherwise awesome life. He was a beloved pack member and got to have a full life with many good experiences. It reminded me that we had given all that to Bogey too (minus all the sisters and cats!). He never went a Christmas without a gift under the tree, never spent a night outside in a pen, and got to sleep with us during storms and on 4th of July because he was scared of noises (I know, that's a huge no-no). Reliving that through the story of Mason comforted me. Even if I invite opinions by posting my own anecdote, it still smarts a bit when someone flippantly says I "killed" my dog. Some decisions are so personal to a family that it's unkind (especially for someone with such great sympathy for a dog) to second-guess them. Anyway, I appreciate your sharing the story of Mason. I wish the people who poisoned him were prosecuted because antifreeze poisoning is an excruciating death. 

The idea that you "live in fear" of legislation that will take your dog or make it too expensive for you to keep your dog does impact me. I honestly do feel bad about that, and not just sad but also guilty. But you saw for yourself what happened on this own board when I told my story of a Rottweiler whose responsible and invested owners - the people who witnessed his behavior day-in and day-out - saw evidence that persuaded them that he posed a bite risk to a small child. Several posters jumped to the side of the dog, blindly willing to say it wasn't his fault, that it didn't justify euthanization. Aus suggested that there's no justification to put an "aggressive" animal (even an occasionally aggressive one) in a home with a child, and Molly (who indicated she has children) again sides with the dog saying that he shouldn't be euthanized until AFTER he had bitten a kid. Can you imagine the damage that could be done by the owner of a strong pitbull who took that "one free bite" position?

There is no arguing with that kind of rigid mindset. People who believe that way don't value children as much as I do and don't value range livestock as much as I do, and we won't find common ground. People like me decide to quit trying to compromise. There are a lot more of folks like me than folks like them, and we're usually the ones who pay real estate taxes and vote (elitist statement aside, homeowners associations are populated by homeowners, and I've never seen a HOA stip preserving the right to keep pitbulls). Laws and HOA stipulations are the result. And people like you - who are the smallest number of all - end up suffering, and that is an outright shame.

PS: Mason's teeth were impressively white! Sigh. I did not do a good job keeping up with Bogey's teeth; well done you.


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## shinybetta

I'm sort of afraid of dogs. Unless they are small (but I still wouldn't put my face by theirs). I don't hate dogs ( I like pugs crossed with other breeds, so they have less of a smashed in face), but I've been attacked by dogs before, they almost killed my cat, and my neighbors let their dog roam the neighborhood freely. Eventually the dog was taken to a rescue by animal control, but it had already attacked people, dogs, and cats. The point is I like them, but I am a bit scared of being by them. It's like how most people don't hate elephants, but wouldn't get right next to an adult elephant.


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## registereduser

Granberry said:


> He was 8. When I was at the vet's having him put to sleep, a vet tech came in and whispered that said she'd take him off my hands and had land and several rotts. It annoyed me to no end that she would second guess my judgment. He was ours, and we were his, and it would have been cruel to rehome him. He would have been disoriented and confused to leave the only home he had ever known at his age (8 is pretty old for a rott). And letting him age at home wasn't an option for a strong, heavy dog who wasn't aging "gracefully" and lives with a 4-year-old.


 I'm sorry I caused you pain by using the word killed, I'm just blunt.

Still would like to hear what testing was done on the dog before euthanizing and why not give him to that vet tech if she had no kids and a farm and other rotts? 

I have adopted 3 senior dogs who became part of the family almost immediately. I wonder if your "grumpy old Rottweiler" would have been much happier at the vet tech's farm.

Nothing to do with pits or legislation but since you opened the door, I'm coming through :lol:


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## MollyJean

Granberry said:


> I read your sister's letter to Mason, and though it was heartbreaking, it was rewarding too. It made me feel good that Mason's painful death was just a few days of an otherwise awesome life. He was a beloved pack member and got to have a full life with many good experiences. It reminded me that we had given all that to Bogey too (minus all the sisters and cats!). He never went a Christmas without a gift under the tree, never spent a night outside in a pen, and got to sleep with us during storms and on 4th of July because he was scared of noises (I know, that's a huge no-no). Reliving that through the story of Mason comforted me. Even if I invite opinions by posting my own anecdote, it still smarts a bit when someone flippantly says I "killed" my dog. Some decisions are so personal to a family that it's unkind (especially for someone with such great sympathy for a dog) to second-guess them. Anyway, I appreciate your sharing the story of Mason. I wish the people who poisoned him were prosecuted because antifreeze poisoning is an excruciating death.
> 
> The idea that you "live in fear" of legislation that will take your dog or make it too expensive for you to keep your dog does impact me. I honestly do feel bad about that, and not just sad but also guilty. But you saw for yourself what happened on this own board when I told my story of a Rottweiler whose responsible and invested owners - the people who witnessed his behavior day-in and day-out - saw evidence that persuaded them that he posed a bite risk to a small child. Several posters jumped to the side of the dog, blindly willing to say it wasn't his fault, that it didn't justify euthanization. Aus suggested that there's no justification to put an "aggressive" animal (even an occasionally aggressive one) in a home with a child, and Molly (who indicated she has children) again sides with the dog saying that he shouldn't be euthanized until AFTER he had bitten a kid. Can you imagine the damage that could be done by the owner of a strong pitbull who took that "one free bite" position?
> 
> There is no arguing with that kind of rigid mindset. People who believe that way don't value children as much as I do and don't value range livestock as much as I do, and we won't find common ground. People like me decide to quit trying to compromise. There are a lot more of folks like me than folks like them, and we're usually the ones who pay real estate taxes and vote (elitist statement aside, homeowners associations are populated by homeowners, and I've never seen a HOA stip preserving the right to keep pitbulls). Laws and HOA stipulations are the result. And people like you - who are the smallest number of all - end up suffering, and that is an outright shame.
> 
> PS: Mason's teeth were impressively white! Sigh. I did not do a good job keeping up with Bogey's teeth; well done you.


Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said you should have waited til the dog bit someone.

I said that if you knew the dog might bite a child, the logical thing to do would be finding a home without children. If you knew the dog well enough to know what MIGHT set him off then you should have at least -tried- to find him a suitable home, and at the same time kept your children safe. You said someone offered to re-home the dog.. I'm sorry, but in my opinion you jumped to the last option you had available. It doesn't matter your reasons, it's too extreme for me.


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## FishyFishy89

MollyJean said:


> Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said you should have waited til the dog bit someone.
> 
> I said that if you knew the dog might bite a child, the logical thing to do would be finding a home without children. If you knew the dog well enough to know what MIGHT set him off then you should have at least -tried- to find him a suitable home, and at the same time kept your children safe. You said someone offered to re-home the dog.. I'm sorry, but in my opinion you jumped to the last option you had available. It doesn't matter your reasons, it's too extreme for me.


My exact thoughts.
Why would you still put an animal down when someone else offered to take him? Someone who obviously had an appropriate home for him.

Please answer me that Granberry.


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## Granberry

registereduser said:


> I'm sorry I caused you pain by using the word killed, I'm just blunt.
> 
> Still would like to hear what testing was done on the dog before euthanizing and why not give him to that vet tech if she had no kids and a farm and other rotts?
> 
> I have adopted 3 senior dogs who became part of the family almost immediately. I wonder if your "grumpy old Rottweiler" would have been much happier at the vet tech's farm.
> 
> Nothing to do with pits or legislation but since you opened the door, I'm coming through :lol:


You are right, I opened the door, so the rules say you were invited! 

Neither I nor the vet thought any testing was needed. Whether his behavior change was because of a brain tumor or sensitivity to his hips which gave him a little trouble, the point was I knew he was less trustworthy than he had been. The cause wasn't as important as the symptom. 

As far as the vet tech (which is a title I made up...I think she was actually barn cleaning staff as this vet handled large animals too), I not only wouldn't give her my dog, I was annoyed that she asked. It seemed heartless to suggest she knew a better option when I had already suffered through the decision-making process and weighed all my options. A family isn't interchangeable. It is much easier to give a dog away and tell yourself he'll be fine than it is to walk in the room with him, tell him he's a good boy while you watch him pass. That sucked. 

I don't give my dogs away. I take care of them for their whole lives. Giving him away for an extra 2 or 4 years of existence on land he doesn't know with other rotts who may scare him with people who don't know him wasn't an option I would ever consider.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> You are right, I opened the door, so the rules say you were invited!
> 
> Neither I nor the vet thought any testing was needed. Whether his behavior change was because of a brain tumor or sensitivity to his hips which gave him a little trouble, the point was I knew he was less trustworthy than he had been. The cause wasn't as important as the symptom.
> 
> As far as the vet tech (which is a title I made up...I think she was actually barn cleaning staff as this vet handled large animals too), I not only wouldn't give her my dog, I was annoyed that she asked. It seemed heartless to suggest she knew a better option when I had already suffered through the decision-making process and weighed all my options. A family isn't interchangeable. It is much easier to give a dog away and tell yourself he'll be fine than it is to walk in the room with him, tell him he's a good boy while you watch him pass. That sucked.
> 
> I don't give my dogs away. I take care of them for their whole lives. Giving him away for an extra 2 or 4 years of existence on land he doesn't know with other rotts who may scare him with people who don't know him wasn't an option I would ever consider.


How was it heartless??? I would have felt happy knowing my beloved dog could still live a happy life without pestering children and with someone who has experience with his breed.

So your basically saying you'd rather ill your dog than let him live happy with someone else? That sounds kinda selfish to me. Sorry for being blunt, but to me that is basically what you just said.


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## MollyJean

Granberry said:


> It seemed heartless to suggest she knew a better option when I had already suffered through the decision-making process and weighed all my options. A family isn't interchangeable. It is much easier to give a dog away and tell yourself he'll be fine than it is to walk in the room with him, tell him he's a good boy while you watch him pass.


So this is the root of the problem. I think I understand now. And I disagree 100%.

Edit: Let me rephrase that: I would never kill the things I love just because I can't handle them anymore.


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## freemike

I don't think we can say what was right or wrong for granberry to have done in that situation. If a professional vet said euthanization was the best option you wouldn't have been able to talk me out of it either. What if the dogs that she already had wanted to pick at or bully that older dog? How would someone feel if they had been recommended to euthanize a dog but instead gave the dog away and it did hurt someone or another dog?


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## FishyFishy89

freemike said:


> I don't think we can say what was right or wrong for granberry to have done in that situation. If a professional vet said euthanization was the best option you wouldn't have been able to talk me out of it either. What if the dogs that she already had wanted to pick at or bully that older dog? How would someone feel if they had been recommended to euthanize a dog but instead gave the dog away and it did hurt someone or another dog?


Sometimes you can't trust your vet
sometimes they are just in it for the money
and this vet didn't even highly suggest doing ANY tests that may have been changing his behavior.

I KNOW I can trust my vet. Because if I was to tell her I want to put down my Emma Demma because she bit me she would highly suggest testing before I proceeded with such a huge procedure.


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## Olympia

The vet would have charged more for doing tests instead of just euthanizing right away.. Doubt they were only thinking about money..


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> The vet would have charged more for doing tests instead of just euthanizing right away.. Doubt they were only thinking about money..


If they truly cared about their patient and the dog they would suggest testing.


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## Olympia

So first you say they are only in it for the money, then you change your argument to if they care about the dog.. Caring and wanting money are opposites..


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## Granberry

Fishy, does 89 refer to the year you were born? Because if so, you're the same age as my sweetest son, so I'm going to give you the benefit of your youth. But the answer is, I agree with OldFishLady when she said, "I often question why some people think it is more humane to keep a dog in a small cage, limited human contact and play time waiting to be re-homed...that is existing not living......Thousands of pets wait to be adopted.." I'd do the hard thing first. 

Molly, you have a child, so you don't get the same benefit of youth.  You said this "I agree that you should kill a dog if it causes harm. But the dog didn't hurt anyone." and then went on there about perceived danger versus actual danger, etc, so that's what I understood you to be saying. 

Guys, we're not doing to agree on this. You are loyal to the idea of dogs - not to specific facts, just blind adherence to the idea - to the point of foolishness. It is foolish to believe an elderly dog living out his last 3 years in a shelter is kinder than euthanasia. It is foolish to tell a person who was obviously a caring pet owner that you know better than they do what was right for their beloved dog. And it is foolish, and mean, to add a dig about their decision to euthanize their 14-year-old show dog. 

But, sigh, that's why everyone in America gets a vote. And it's also why people vote the way they do.


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## registereduser

I would have handled it differently for sure.

I am not 100% on board with the "no-kill" philosophy but if there's a way out, I'd jump on it.

Anyway, thanks for answering my questions.


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> So first you say they are only in it for the money, then you change your argument to if they care about the dog.. Caring and wanting money are opposites..


of course their opposites!!!
because if they cared about their patients then they wouldn't be in it for the money.


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## freemike

Well if the Vet didn't suggest doing any tests I doubt they was "in it for the money." Animal testing in a vet's office is no cheap chore. I still say not knowing what was exactly said and having all the information we can't say it was the wrong or right decision. Obviously her and the vet saw something made the dog at risk for aggression and felt euthanizaiton was the best route. Rehoming a dog that has showed aggressive tendencies is a decision that must be made very carefully and very few homes are appropriate. I hate to say it but rehoming isn't always a viable option even if the home is full of adults. Especially with a breed such as the rotties most adults wouldn't stand a chance at being able to stop an attack. That's why we use large breeds as police dogs and not Chihuahua.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> Fishy, does 89 refer to the year you were born? Because if so, you're the same age as my sweetest son, so I'm going to give you the benefit of your youth. But the answer is, I agree with OldFishLady when she said, "I often question why some people think it is more humane to keep a dog in a small cage, limited human contact and play time waiting to be re-homed...that is existing not living......Thousands of pets wait to be adopted.." I'd do the hard thing first.


The year of my birth is non on your concern. In fact, the year of my birth has nothing to do with this conversation.
Anyhow, I recommened the shelter or Craigslist because I didn't really fully understand the part of "a vet tech offered to take him off my hands." But when another user added the comment that the "vet tech" has other rottis and a large property that is where my opinion changed a bit. Going with the vet tech is so much more appropriate and humane than killing your dog because you feel like you should be the only person who should love your animals.
It doesn't matter if your dog would of been scared in that home. Dog's EASILY adapt to changes in their life. And he would of soon enough learned the routine of the new home and been just as happy there as he may have been with you.


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## Olympia

True. No one's going to come to this huge agreement.. 
You can tell Granberry loves her dogs, loves dogs.. she has 2(?) now and they seem happy and healthy.. As hopeful as you may be, old dogs usually don't adopt well, like I said.. He would have been stuck in a kennel for the rest of his life most likely.. Not a fair way to treat him as an elder dog, being put to sleep near the people he knew would have been much better than waiting in a kennel and being put to sleep surrounded by strange sounds and sights..

When you adopt any dog, you become responsible for their life, and their actions... It's sad to say, but it is your duty to do the right thing if they become hopelessly ill, or start to become aggressive. Even if it means putting them down... Leaving an old dog in a shelter hoping that some amazing person would come along and "save" him seems like something someone who can't handle the responsibility of a life would do to me.. This is the last place I would ever want to leave my older dog who has only known us. She is very shy at first and it would hurt me to know that she would be sitting in a kennel by herself for who knows how long.. :/


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## FishyFishy89

I still say giving him to the vet tech would of been a WAY more humane choice.


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## Aus

> How would someone feel if they had been recommended to euthanize a dog but instead gave the dog away and it did hurt someone or another dog?


That would be the question foremost in my mind, were this my situation. But it wasn't mine, nor anyone's but Granberry's. Personally, I think she made a very wise choice. It'd have been the one I made, hands down, no question. People with no children of their own still go places where kids are, maybe have relatives over who have children, etc. When a dog is, for whatever reason, unpredictable - then that's what it is. Some people choose to gamble on those odds, some do not. That's life.

Re-homing an older dog isn't always sunshine and unicorns for the dog, either. My grandpa's loyal old dog still had a few good years in her when he passed away. She died in her sleep two months after he did, in a terrible state of depression, from no visible physical cause. The vet's unofficial diagnosis was that she died of grief, unable to find her place in a world that her dedicated human being was no longer in.


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## freemike

Olympia said:


> True. No one's going to come to this huge agreement..
> You can tell Granberry loves her dogs, loves dogs.. she has 2(?) now and they seem happy and healthy.. As hopeful as you may be, old dogs usually don't adopt well, like I said.. He would have been stuck in a kennel for the rest of his life most likely.. Not a fair way to treat him as an elder dog, being put to sleep near the people he knew would have been much better than waiting in a kennel and being put to sleep surrounded by strange sounds and sights..
> 
> When you adopt any dog, you become responsible for their life, and their actions... It's sad to say, but it is your duty to do the right thing if they become hopelessly ill, or start to become aggressive. Even if it means putting them down... Leaving an old dog in a shelter hoping that some amazing person would come along and "save" him seems like something someone who can't handle the responsibility of a life would do to me.. This is the last place I would ever want to leave my older dog who has only known us. She is very shy at first and it would hurt me to know that she would be sitting in a kennel by herself for who knows how long.. :/


Honestly it wouldn't be that long... volunteering in these places in my area. I know it's 7 days max and sometime 72 hours. Also if it is suggested that the dog is becoming aggressive as it ages the shelter will almost certainly put it down as soon as you walk out and if he's lucky he'll just be put first on the "to be destroyed on "date"" list. This may not be true in all areas but that is it around here. Also the one "no-kill" shelter in my area will refuse dogs that are being given up because of aggression as they simply do NOT have the room. Even if they did it would be too risky to leave a dog in a home waiting for a spot.


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## Olympia

In this case I would rather have her put down, with me by her side, then leaving her at a shelter knowing she'd be put down. That seems cowardly to me. (I am talking about my dog btw..)


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## MollyJean

registereduser said:


> I am not 100% on board with the "no-kill" philosophy but if there's a way out, I'd jump on it.


I would have at least tried something else.. killing would have been a last resort if I had to do it.

And I know I've said this before. Re-homing doesn't necessarily mean sending the dog to the local pound. I have a neighbor who was on the local K-9 task force for 14 years. He has 4 dogs and takes very good care of them. If tomorrow Sadie showed signs of aggression towards my daughter I would probably ask my neighbor if he would give her a home. I don't think putting the dog to sleep would even be an option.


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## Aluyasha

We should all remember that none of us were there during the life of Granberry's rott. Of course them writing down in a brief paragraph of their dogs life will make it sound negative. No one can explain every action and thought process that went into the choice to euthanize.
I know I have had times when I had to euthanize or rehome a pet and if I explained it in a short story without anyone knowing me it would probably sound cruel. But I know myself that it was a hard, thought through decision.


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## Granberry

Aluyasha, you are right, and that has been keeping me sitting on my fingers all night. Because the thing is, I don't feel it is important to the original poster's point to go into all those details about my decision. 

My point was and is that we as a society have a responsibility to protect children at extraordinarily high costs. Somebody said that a child would learn to respect animals if they got bitten or scratched. I think that is a shockingly irresponsible thing to say when you're discussing pit bulls who can, and have, pulled a 3-year-old's arm off at the joint for putting his little hand through a stockade fence hole in his own back yard.

I don't understand how telling that story can have anyone rushing to the rescue of the pit bulls, but the truth is, some people will be as quick to do so as they were quick to rush to plead my Bogey's case. And that's why sensible people see that there are some people whose values are so disparate to their own that the only solution is laws.


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## FishyFishy89

So I guess my mother and father and several other mother and fathers before them were completely irresponsible to let their children get bitten or scratched by an animal after they warned them several times to leave the animal alone.

I certainly learned to respect dogs after the boxer bit my face as a 6 year old.
I learned to respect cats after I pulled my cat's whiskers at the age 3
and I'm not even gonna go into all the other incidents that taught me respect for quite a few other animals.


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## Aluyasha

FishyFishy89 said:


> So I guess my mother and father and several other mother and fathers before them were completely irresponsible to let their children get bitten or scratched by an animal after they warned them several times to leave the animal alone.
> 
> I certainly learned to respect dogs after the boxer bit my face as a 6 year old.
> I learned to respect cats after I pulled my cat's whiskers at the age 3
> and I'm not even gonna go into all the other incidents that taught me respect for quite a few other animals.


I see what you are getting at. However some children, instead of learning from a snap, would become afriad their whole lives of certain animals. 
I do not have a child yet. But I feel it will be my duty to not only protect my child, but also make sure that my child grows to trust animals and care for them as much as I do. I would hate to see my child afraid or even hate dogs because I did not do something about my own aggressive dog. As the safest place for my child should be at home.
And I would not want my dog to keep having to go through, feeling irritated or possive, biting, then me getting mad at it or having to kennel it, and it constantly feeling hurt and confused.

Also, what if your child gets food on their face from eating and the dog just bites him over it? Or your baby is crying and dog hates the noise and snaps? How could you tell your child that it was their fault?


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## Aluyasha

Sometimes, it is not a situation where a child is being mean to the dog.
Once when I was very young. My mother fell asleep on the couch with me in her arms, when she fell asleep, her arm moved loosly off the couch and I rolled off of her and landed on our cattle dog. The dog flipped around and bit my head. I still have a scar.
At that time if my mom woke up, looked down at me and said "you deserved it" would that have made sense?


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## dramaqueen

Wow, what a conversation! Guys, please stay on topic. The purpose of this thread is not to discuss whether Granberry did the right thing or not by having her dog humanely euthanized. She did what she felt was right and best for the dog.


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## FishyFishy89

Was typing when DQ posted.

I made my opinion. I'm done repeating myself. End of conversation.


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## Aus

> End of conversation.


Thanks.


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## Laki

:shock: I read a lot of this thread. Skipped a couple pages here and there (I think I missed the pic of pitluv's dog :< ) 

Okay. So I just wanted to step in with a few thoughts, Pitbulls are dogs, yes. They are working terriers. 

Terriers are not the greatest family dog because they can be high strung, hyper, and can blow hours off in a field. Trust me, I shared the greatest 14 years of my life with my 25lb terrier (he was 27lbs at his heaviest but typically stayed around 21-24). We were kids and loved out little byb puppy (our dad 'traded' us for our then half-wild child aggressive dog). He was so wound with energy once out for a walk when he was young, kids bullied us in that neighborhood and took to threatening our Coco with hockey sticks. He bit one of the kids in self defense. Fortunately the parents didn't request the death sentence for him but my mom MADE us keep our dog inside the house, minus the backyard, for 7 years. _7 years_. In this time, he sometimes escaped and ran the neighborhood in pure energy, he bit some kids. They had nasty bruises and scars, but fortunately (it was a very low income neighborhood) nobody requested euthanasia. 
When we moved and took him for walks he finally got the hours REQUIRED daily exercise, including walks and runs and extensive playtime which included terrier chase and 'kill' games he became a much better dog. Easier to train and walk. 
Dogs are not human. They absolutely require without excpetion a lot of exercise. I love my terrier, I will always defend terriers. When people want them I make sure to forwarn them, there is a woman at my work who has a jack russell- doesn't get walked. She complains he's destructive. :roll: I cannot stress enough, terriers are a special type of dog. They were bred to run and chase and kill and tear their prey (rats and small vermin). 
That's their instinct. Wanna know what else? pitbulls were bred to be dog aggressive- guess what? With proper training, they can be well behaved. My terrier was the best mouser I knew, we kept pet mice/hamsters and rats, Coco would (on command) sniff them out when they escaped in the house and NOT kill them! 
Instinct is still there, but trained not to kill our small pets. 
What I'm getting at here is that pitbulls can be rescued and live with other dogs, children, small animals. As pitluvs mentioned pages back- as she has multiple pet household. 
When I move from this apartment I intend on rescuing a pit-pit cross. I'm in love with staffies actually. Recently in the news a "pitbull" attack was recorded, the media blew it up.. A neighbor of the "attack" dog mentioned the dog was, in fact, a boxer cross. It had the look of a pitbull and pitbull stories sell. That's all there is to it. A couple years ago it was German Shepherds and Rotties. There's always going to be a "bad" breed. 
I will never support BSL. I think it's ill informed and sensationalist, rather, owners should apply to own a dog under liscence. There is mandatory liscensing here but it is not enforced. :/ 

(one quick comment on the short attack on the one who had her rottie pts over it growling at her child): NOBODY can ever judge how someone else regards the hardest choice to make. I mean, there are stupid people who would do it, but I got the feeling off the poster that the 8 yr odl rottie was a family member, it probbaly growled because of health problems. My little dog was 14 when we mulled it over and decided to have him pts. I couldn't eat, concentrate or anything for the week deciding. I had to look at my dog in a different, more compassionate, light for the first time and try to empathise with him. I couldn't enjoy walks the same way, looked at him differently. All to evaluate if it was the right decision. If the vet tech had, in the office, offered to give him a new life on a ranch or something I would have had the same reaction. Not in a selfish way, but physically it seemed there was nothing wrong with my dog. He was 14 years old and looked like maybe he was 7. He never aged in his face at all. So, think about that before you judge someone on their desicion. 

Oh my, I've written a novella here! 
Bottom line, I do not agree with BSL, I defend and love all terriers! I cannot wait to rescue mine. Not because I want to show the world how great they are, but because they have proven to be the best friends one can have, and I want to give back to the dog. I don;t think I want human children because dogs give me everything I need. I even thought I was a cat person for a while.... :-? My cat Oliver has made me realise I'm in fact a 100% dog person!! (ps, I love my cat!)


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## Sena Hansler

Granberry did what they thought would have been needed to be done - we don't know the entire story, just some words on a screen. Even if there could have been a possible way, I know I would feel really worried no matter who took "my dog" because of an action the dog put forth. Unless it was someone I knew, I would constantly be wondering how the dog actually was, and if THEY put her/him down.

Pitbulls are actually one of the few terriers I like LOL! I'm not one for most of the terriers.


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## Olympia

Hey! I'm one of those kids that didn't learn from being bit once. Stuck my face into our first dogs face, got bit on the face (fear bite). Stuck my face into my first cats face when it was scared of the dog, got a small scar on the inside of my mouth (cat got taken back ). Approached several free running dogs in Poland, got chased and jumped on before I stopped going near free roaming dogs. Tried to pet my grandmas wiener dog while we were butchering a pig, it had some meat or something.. Bit me. All my parents ever told me was "Olimpia that's all your fault". And I survived!  but I get that if that had been some large dog instead of a weenie, it could have been much more serious. :/


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## Sena Hansler

I would be certain if it were a large dog that bit you then, they'd be upset at the dog. Now for me my parents never cared if I were mauled. It was ALWAYS my fault. :| even when the guard dog escaped his yard, I was walking along, and it went to attack me -.- his owners called him, he sauntered off a little, then turned and came right back to attack me. luckily I had a long stick in my hand >< bopped him on the nose and he left me alone. -.-; it's only been small dogs who bit me. Other than the ill-behaved (ill-trained spoiled rotten bad mannered dog!  ) beagle, who my friend "claimed" to be the "only one" who could train him. Well she did a poo-all job, didn't she??!!

He tried to bite my face and I grabbed him by the scruff and made him sit and he flipped right out because someone was taking charge -.- he tried biting my arm once too and I just grabbed his collar, pushed my arm to the back of his mouth (safest bet when being bit, is to push not pull! less or no damage, and the dog doesn't like it!) and well he never bit me again. or tried.

I'd prefer a pit any day :/


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## Olympia

Haha, yea, plus I never learned to fear dogs (except kinda weenie dogs.. But my friend with one kinda got me over cuz she was super nice :3), I always wanted to be around animals xD
My friends jack russells were being annoying, they chase fishing lures passionately, and we were fishing. A boat went by and this poor 10 year old jrt swam out like half a kilometer after their lures, we told them shed do that, they thought we were kidding. -__- I grabbed her and put her in a submissive pose, she struggled for like 10 minutes because she wasn't in charge, and gave up (I wait until I can let go and they stay down instead of running off right away). After that I didn't even have to say anything, she had no desire to chase lures, neither did the other one and I didn't even touch her.. My friend was like WOAH. Like, wow! Dogs listen if you don't let them walk all over you! Amazing! xD


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## Laki

Ah, see I'm no longer a fan of submission and imposing yourself on dogs. That's Cesear's way and I don't like to dominate my friends. I practised a bit of his method with my dog (going through doors first, always keep your head above his, don't feed him until you've eaten, 'pop' the leash to keep his attention etc. . .) but I found they not only did not work (even with consistency) but it dampened my relationship with my dog. 
I looked into positive reinforcement training after that and had much better, much faster results! When the dog is praised for what its doing, rather than being punished when it does something wrong, the bond builds stronger between you 
I mean, everybody has their way of training, I can never dispute that, because I have seen the pack-mentality training work to re-habilitate a pit bull, rottweiler and some rare breeds here in my own city at the pet expo. But what works for some doesn't always work for others, they think they have the pack-mentality but all they are doing is imposing themselves forcefully over a dog who is not trying to dominate them.. It doesn't work that way.


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## Olympia

Dogs dominate each other.. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but sometimes it doesn't work.. Obviously if your dog listens to you, you're on charge.. That's what matters..


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## Sena Hansler

agreed. for me, depends on the dog. my mom's dog needed to know she WASNT going to walk all over me, and I had to make her submissive (fairly small dog). other dogs, need that negative energy to be released - my friend's dog was pretty misbehaved at my house, so I took charge and he hated that... I had to keep him in one spot while he did his own tantrum :lol: 15 minute tantrum!! afterwards he was much better though :/ he came from a home of tension and stress. My dad's dog I've never used the "dominate/sbubmission" thing, I've done the usual "leash" method, similar to.... what'shisname on "At The End Of My Leash" show which is a pretty common practice from what I have seen here.

either way, as long as it 1. does not hurt the dog (for those who think dominating hurts the dog, it doesn't.) 2. the dog listens.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Cesar Millan is wrong. Those are outdated methods used in the 40s. Dogs don't throw each other to the ground and hold each other in submissive positions. Naturally submissive dogs expose themselves on their own. There's a difference.
Dogs aren't wolves, they don't think like wolves, and wolves don't even think how Cesar says they do. There aren't alpha wolves and they hardly ever, if ever, fight for dominance. There's a breeding pair and their puppies and when the puppies are old enough some leave and some stay a little longer, but dominance theory is wrong. I'm an animal science major and am taking classes in animal behavior- specifically dog behavior. 
I watched the first episode of "Dog Whisperer" to see if it was as bad as everyone says it is. He said the chihuahua was trying to dominate him and HE WAS WRONG. The dog had its ears back, its tail between its legs, the whites of its eyes were showing, it was snarling, tongue flicking to show discomfort, and TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM CESAR. That dog was acting aggressive out of fear. Dog with behavioral problems doesn't automatically equate with a dominant dog.
Psychologists, behaviorists, and trainers have also proven with a number of species ranging from rats to humans to dolphins to dogs that positive reinforcement is MUCH MORE effective than negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment.
The top dog trainers and behaviorists all agree that Cesar's methods are outdated and even cruel. The dog isn't respecting the owner unless it is out of fear. I think it even has something to do with learned helplessness. But people who aggressively handle their dogs aren't building a bond with them and they're setting their dogs up for aggression or fear. The dog might be controlled, but if it is aggressive out of fear and you just increase the amount of fear and discomfort it is experiencing, one day it might snap.


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## Aluyasha

revolutionrocknroll said:


> Cesar Millan is wrong. Those are outdated methods used in the 40s. Dogs don't throw each other to the ground and hold each other in submissive positions. Naturally submissive dogs expose themselves on their own. There's a difference.
> Dogs aren't wolves, they don't think like wolves, and wolves don't even think how Cesar says they do. There aren't alpha wolves and they hardly ever, if ever, fight for dominance. There's a breeding pair and their puppies and when the puppies are old enough some leave and some stay a little longer, but dominance theory is wrong. I'm an animal science major and am taking classes in animal behavior- specifically dog behavior.
> I watched the first episode of "Dog Whisperer" to see if it was as bad as everyone says it is. He said the chihuahua was trying to dominate him and HE WAS WRONG. The dog had its ears back, its tail between its legs, the whites of its eyes were showing, it was snarling, tongue flicking to show discomfort, and TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM CESAR. That dog was acting aggressive out of fear. Dog with behavioral problems doesn't automatically equate with a dominant dog.
> Psychologists, behaviorists, and trainers have also proven with a number of species ranging from rats to humans to dolphins to dogs that positive reinforcement is MUCH MORE effective than negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment.
> The top dog trainers and behaviorists all agree that Cesar's methods are outdated and even cruel. The dog isn't respecting the owner unless it is out of fear. I think it even has something to do with learned helplessness. But people who aggressively handle their dogs aren't building a bond with them and they're setting their dogs up for aggression or fear. The dog might be controlled, but if it is aggressive out of fear and you just increase the amount of fear and discomfort it is experiencing, one day it might snap.


 ++1


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## Granberry

Sena Hansler said:


> agreed. for me, depends on the dog. my mom's dog needed to know she WASNT going to walk all over me, and I had to make her submissive (fairly small dog). other dogs, need that negative energy to be released - my friend's dog was pretty misbehaved at my house, so I took charge and he hated that... I had to keep him in one spot while he did his own tantrum :lol: 15 minute tantrum!! afterwards he was much better though :/ he came from a home of tension and stress. My dad's dog I've never used the "dominate/sbubmission" thing, I've done the usual "leash" method, similar to.... what'shisname on "At The End Of My Leash" show which is a pretty common practice from what I have seen here.
> 
> either way, as long as it 1. does not hurt the dog (for those who think dominating hurts the dog, it doesn't.) 2. the dog listens.


I love hearing discussions of different teaching methods because I think people really do learn from those and kind of get excited at the idea of trying out different methods of training their dogs, especially the ones that have some behavior issue.

I also really appreciate it when pit bull owners speak up to other pit bull owners about training methods because there is a sort of "brotherly credibility" between owners that non-owners like myself can't offer. 

In that respect, know this: Bogey was born in 1993. He died right before 9/11 in 2001. In my memory at that time, rottweilers were the most controversial family dog out there (there wasn't controversy about pit bulls; nobody liked them). I was active on my dial-up internet on the AOL rottweiler message boards (feeling so old...) and of course I discussed the situation with my fellow rottweiler owners. Not one single solitary person suggested anything other than euthanasia. Know why? Because everyone was fed completely up with the bad rap rotts were getting, and they wanted those stories about kids getting bitten to end. They accepted they couldn't end the stories unless they could end the bites. They got extraordinarily loud about people ignoring warning signs. Rott owners were not a docile group, and if your dog had shown any aggression to a child and you hadn't euthanized them, you were severely chastised....you were taught better.

Pit owners need to start preaching that "one free bite" doesn't work and admitting that responsible pit ownership is hard because you have to accept that you may have to put down a dog even if he is simply acting according to his own aggressive nature. Pit owners are probably the only ones who can persuade other pit owners. If things don't change, I believe the rest of the world will take it out of their hands. So far, they aren't succeeding at fixing anything, and voters like me are lining up to vote. 

Breed clubs need to change the AKC and other standards to deemphasize size and muscle tone and jaw strength and emphasize stable temperament and flawless obedience to commands. They need to support laws banning the advertising that is so commonly seen for pit bulls as "the ideal pit bull is willing to fight to the death to protect his owner's property" Yank their registration license or something. But if the breed clubs don't do it, again, voters will. So far, they aren't succeeding at fixing anything, and voters like me are lining up to vote. 

I don't think pit bulls are hated for no reason. I think they're hated because their owners are too eager to defend the dogs. You saw on here where I told a really short story with really only 2 factors: 1. A 4-year-old, and 2. A beloved dog whose owner who sincerely was persuaded he was becoming aggressive. Nobody knew my dog or loved him like I did, but it was the pit bull owners (and those damn pug owners!) who jumped in to defend the dog. That kind of mentality needs to be shot down out loud by every responsible pit owner, like Pitluvs, at every possible occasion.

I know this was a much tenser thread than the "why are my plants dying" thread, but I will say I have appreciated it. Two people said they thought my current dogs were cute, and I now have enough posts to enter the photo of the month contest on the Tropical Fishkeeping side, so I'm leaving it having said my piece and better off. Good luck to everyone with your critters, both wet and dry. 

PS: Pitluvs dog Mason's pictures are visible through the letter her sister wrote.


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## Sena Hansler

I remember my mom freaking when there was a rottie attack on a young boy. His face was all torn up. And yes, they euthanised the dog without even looking at the facts. after the dog was euthanised, did they find out the kid was pestering the dog to no end (i.e. teasing with food, which is a BAD thing to teach the dog!)


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## revolutionrocknroll

I'm not making assumptions about anyone. I'm just saying that dominance theory is wrong. Don't worry.


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## Sena Hansler

good lol. :3 I don't handle my doggies rough. if they bite though, i do some things people "whine" about, which don't hurt the dog, but keeps me from getting gashes. (i.e back of the mouth idea, don't pull, push!)

my friend and I went to the spca to kill time. there was surprisingly... no pits. one rottie though - 5 years old - escape artist :lol: there was a shephard mix, BIG dog... he was so scared :-( we went in, and we didn't touch him or anything, but he sure didn't like the fact he was in a strange place with people! makes me wonder who did him so wrong that made him end up dumped at the spca, no social skills (or bad experience!!)...


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## revolutionrocknroll

I'm just about to start a very interesting book about dog behavior- specifically aggressive behavior. It's called "The Culture Clash" and it just reminded me of this thread xD
Edit: Just started the intro- so far very good. I'd definitely recommend it for anyone who's interested in studying this topic further.


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## Sena Hansler

lol I've learned dog behavior by watching them :3 interaction, any "dominance" dogs do (usually "humping" action people discourage), and signs of when the dog is scared/aggressive. I mostly see scared. 

actually, I've never seen a scared pitbull :/ except the puppy!! -remembered- :lol: he got out of the yard, and um.... it's from one of those "WE're home breeders and will make 500 off each pup with our two pitbulls". :| if I didn't have moral standings, I wouldn't have brought him back.


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## revolutionrocknroll

I bet you'd love my job. I get paid to stand outside and watch dogs for 8 hours a day xD


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## FishyFishy89

I do agree about terriers not being the ideal family dog.
My best friend's parents thought a rat terrier would be a great dog when my best friend was little. This dog mortally HATES children. Every time we go out in public with our dogs Emma gets all the attention and Jack hides behind BFF. We always have to tell kids they can't touch him. He'll snarl growl and threaten to bite.


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## Sena Hansler

I would love your job xDD

And I've only had chihuahuas being meanies. although the miniature yorkie pretending to be bigger than the great dane was the cutest, funniest thing to see x.x
oh, and my dad's dog wanted to take on a pitbull :lol:


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## MollyJean

Docshounds. I've never met a nice one. Even my mother's Dixie was mean if you caught her at the wrong time. And barked at EVERYTHING. I would never own another one. And don't get me wrong. I LOVED Dixie. Heck, she was the first pet I had when I was little, so I idolized her. But how that I've had a black lab (Killed.. sigh.. shot with a crossbow by some stupid kids) and a tiny little mutt my father in law gave me. (We gave her away when out house burned down. My neighbor was watching her for us and her autistic son fell in love. I couldn't say no) I will never own another little dog again.. or another big dog. Sadie is perfect for me. She's active enough to go on walks and hang out at the flea market, but calm enough to cuddle on the couch and watch TV. She's good with cats and kids, and having a disabled cat means I couldn't have a mean dog, ever, or risk a dead cat. And she never barks unless someone is around the house.. I never intended her to be a guard dog, but she's really good at it.

In short.. It wasn't the training, it was the dog. She was a good dog before I crate trained and leash trained her. She was a good dog as soon as we got her, and only got better from there. If a good dog can be born, so can a bad dog, and it doesn't matter the breed.

There's no way to regulate ownership of animals in a way that would keep bad dogs away from people. It's just not possible. Any dog can be bad. It can be born in, it can be taught, but breed doesn't matter. Singling out the pitbulls because they have the "Locking jaw" (-snort-) or because they've been bred for fighting each other (Not true) is like, as said before, singling out a race of people because members of it are violent. Dogs are as individual as people.


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## tpocicat

When I was a young girl, it was German Shepherds that were the bad dog. Later it was Dobermans, then Rotweillers, now Pit Bulls. It never ends. I honestly believe when there isn't a medical problem, most dogs are good when trained properly.


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## Laki

Wait, whoever said Brad Pattison (end of my leash) is a good trainer is wrong. A trainer who refuses to allow his sessions being filmed?? Um, why? There are some hidden videos on youtube of him abusing dogs. Not only dominating them, but physically attacking them. revolutionrockandroll was right, Cesear's dogs and Pattison's methods seem to "work" because the dog is afraid to do anything else. 
Anyway, we'll only go off topic here on training. 
Pitbulls don't "lock" their jaws. They have incredibly powerful grip, but they don't "lock". Not like painful lockjaw that people experience. 
I love pitties, I love terriers as a whole group. I mean, the smaller they get the worse they get (yorkies) but I do admire my Airdales!! Such regal prince-like goofs they are! They can be ideal for families prepared to handle up to 15 years of crazy energy!! A rocking good time in my honest opinion.


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## Sena Hansler

Or just like "awww bassets are a GREAT family pet! They are so nice, so friendly..." And yet I distinctly remember a particular basset (purebred) who wanted to tear you apart if he could get out of his yard!! And he literally attempted to go through the gate to get to you, and when he was out you were off the ground to avoid getting mauled  Any breed can be mean. Sorry...not breed...dog. Any DOG can be mean.


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## Thebettaqueen

I was only agreeing with one thing she said o-O Anyway. I'd like to learn more about this topic..I'm quite curious.


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## Laki

Yes. Surprisingly enough, many years ago there was a bar who kept 2 Newfoundland dogs (or Newf crosses) in the backyard of the bar. They were loud, barky and protective of the fence if one went near it. Since I'm in Newfoundland, the breed is super attainable and unfortunately anyone can get one, meaning there are some badly bred ones here (or there were a few years ago, you don't actually see that many around now) 
My boyfriend hates beagles because back in Nova Scotia when he was young he was bitten by one. Beagles are one of those hounds bred to be loyal companions and thus why they are used in labs...
So I hear you on the "any dog can be aggressive". Depends on the life it lives.


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## Sena Hansler

Exactly. And depends on genetics.. I mean, like the Service Dog I mentioned before - he was a rotten pick. And the organization, if that dog bites, should be SUED. And I hope they do get sued!  no one aught to teach a service dog to attack when something moves next to it.


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## revolutionrocknroll

MollyJean, I think that instead of keeping "bad dogs" away from people we should just keep dogs away from bad people (who are guilty of animal abuse, drug dealing, violent crimes, etc)


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## Sena Hansler

True, considering most "bad dogs" are caused from "bad people".


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## tpocicat

My thoughts exactly^^^^A+


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## FishyFishy89

Laki said:


> Wait, whoever said Brad Pattison (end of my leash) is a good trainer is wrong. A trainer who refuses to allow his sessions being filmed?? Um, why? There are some hidden videos on youtube of him abusing dogs. Not only dominating them, but physically attacking them. revolutionrockandroll was right, Cesear's dogs and Pattison's methods seem to "work" because the dog is afraid to do anything else.
> Anyway, we'll only go off topic here on training.
> Pitbulls don't "lock" their jaws. They have incredibly powerful grip, but they don't "lock". Not like painful lockjaw that people experience.
> I love pitties, I love terriers as a whole group. I mean, the smaller they get the worse they get (yorkies) but I do admire my Airdales!! Such regal prince-like goofs they are! They can be ideal for families prepared to handle up to 15 years of crazy energy!! A rocking good time in my honest opinion.


same with Ceaser Millian (or however you spell his name)
If he kicked my dogs I'd kick him the same way and in the same spot. To show him what he has been doing to these dogs. I saw an episode where he forced a bull dog into submission.:evil:
Close minded people on another forum I go on keep defending him and say "he is nudging them, not kicking them" seriously?! A nudge does not cause a husky to attack his handler or does a nudge cause a golden retriever to cower and make itself look smaller.

EDIT: and I derailed the train again xD


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## Inga

Sena Hansler said:


> Hey! then here a question, Inga. CAN a 3 year old rottie be trained, or rehabilitated? :| I say yes. My brother says no, because they are a "stubborn" breed, therefore what they learned before the age of 1 is set into them and there is no way to fix what they were taught. I.e a 3 year old rottie who was taught to fight would have to be euthanised because there is "no way" they can be helped. And I seriously am going to try (and probably will knowing my persistance) to show rotties after age 1 or whatever CAN be readopted, CAN be rehabilitated, and CAN be helped out of problems like fear, aggression, bad training, etc.
> 
> Or is it just PEOPLE who won't take a chance with a strong breed?


Sorry, didn't see this right away. The short answer, YES. 
The long answer...It can be a long road and it depends on the training.

First off, Rotties are not stubborn. They are a breed that is bred to make it's own decisions, and work on it's own. Unlike a Golden Retriever or Labrador that is bred to look to the owner for constant direction (bird hunting) The Rottie is bred to "think for itself" This doesn't mean the dog is stubborn. HOW you train a Rottie will determine if he can be rehabbed. 
I had one girl that was brought to me by the police (the head of AC is a friend) They had gone in a house on a drug bust and found the dog hanging in the garage. They cut her down thinking she was dead but she wasn't. They brought her in to be euthed but I had been called and intercepted her. Her mouth had been wired shut, she was bleeding and had bruises over her entire body, cuts to her mouth where the wire had but in and bruises around her neck. She could barely stand up on her own but give her food and stand anywhere near it and she would try like heck to charge after you. 
Time and patient, and that loving dog was turned into a registered Therapy dog. 
This is her in the Red collar, the smaller one.









The other dog in that picture had been tied up to a tractorr with a logging chain. She was an adult dog but only weighed 48 lbs. and had been shot (because she didn't come when she was called) I don't know how she was even alive because when she got up to full weight she was around 115 lbs. Less then half her ideal weight but she survived and also became the most amazing, forgiving, loving therapy dogs and family companions. Every so often I will still run into people at dog shows, or exhibitions or even teachers at high schools where we performed that will remember her and say "that was the funniest, sweetest dog I have ever met" 

So... Can it be done. I have had living proof that it could be done.
If there was any question as to what had happened to the dog hanging, she was a bait dog for dog fighting. She had her mouth wired shut so they could put young dogs, on her without her being able to hurt them, so they would gain confidence to fight.


One more shot of my "little bait dog" 







She had filled out better in that shot. More hair came back. ha ha


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## FishyFishy89

Sena Hansler said:


> Or just like "awww bassets are a GREAT family pet! They are so nice, so friendly..." And yet I distinctly remember a particular basset (purebred) who wanted to tear you apart if he could get out of his yard!! And he literally attempted to go through the gate to get to you, and when he was out you were off the ground to avoid getting mauled  Any breed can be mean. Sorry...not breed...dog. Any DOG can be mean.


I've even seen my own pug, yes a PUG, viciously bark at random people when we walk her in my neighborhood.
I've seen her "defend" tennis balls at the dog park. (i always end up either hiding them or handing 1 off to another dog when she's not looking)


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## Sena Hansler

Inga, that's amazing! Sad about the dogs, though, the state they were in! I'm glad you got them. And I love the fact these "abused" dogs are sitting next to a young kid!!! :lol: I personally would get a rottie lol. Won't be for a few years at least! But I will ;-)

Lol I know pugs can be little meanies :3 also, my next door neighbor had one and he bathed it... smelled WORSE x.x


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## Inga

Thanks! They were great girls for sure and Lulu "the bait dog" was in LOVE with that little boy (my nephew) He would walk around the yard playing and she would be circling circling watching everything to keep him safe. It would have drove me nuts but he didn't mind. ha ha 

I currently have one rescue boy (and one from a breeder) and they are both amazing. The one that I have now that was a rescue came with multiple broken bones and is still amazing. His owner had kicked him several times, then just left him in excruciating pain. Happily again, Animal control stepped in and now he is mine. He was supposed to be a foster but... I stink at fostering, they always stay forever. 









Notice the snaggle tooth smile from a poorly healed broken jaw.


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## FishyFishy89

Sena Hansler said:


> Lol I know pugs can be little meanies :3 also, my next door neighbor had one and he bathed it... smelled WORSE x.x


She doesn't bark at everyone. It's random people. She'll wag her tail at 1 random person and the next random person she'll be down right mean to. I'm pretty sure she knows whos a bad person and whos a good person. I don't exactly live in a good neighborhood either 

Ive never had a problem with Emma stinking. She gets baths once a month and there 2 days before her new flea treatment.
She and my doberman have been the only dogs I've had that never had a "doggie" smell.
My golden had a skin condition that my mother wouldn't allow me to get diagnosed (I've had her from age 4-12). As a result she had a HORRIBLE stench and itched like crazy.


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## Sena Hansler

hehe that smile is still cute though :3 Yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see that co-owned rottie in the shelter or spca. If he is and I happen to see him I'll be right down PO'd and I'll take him :|

Yeah, some dogs just have the doggie smell, some don't, some it can be prevented  poor thing was itchy hey?? our beagle/basset was like that, then we changed shampoos, and we made my mom bathe her less.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Awww. I bet I would suck at fostering too xD 
I love Rottweilers. I don't think I'd ever own one though- I like small- medium sized dogs.
Pugs... there are a few breeds that I wouldn't own including pugs, beagles, and certain types of terriers just for personal reasons. But all of the ones I've met are either really sweet or really annoying xD
I love how this thread just turned into "dog general chat"


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## FishyFishy89

Sena Hansler said:


> hehe that smile is still cute though :3 Yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see that co-owned rottie in the shelter or spca. If he is and I happen to see him I'll be right down PO'd and I'll take him :|
> 
> Yeah, some dogs just have the doggie smell, some don't, some it can be prevented  poor thing was itchy hey?? our beagle/basset was like that, then we changed shampoos, and we made my mom bathe her less.


Emma is...well was quite the itcher. Doing all the research I've done on skin conditions, symptoms, and treatments; I've concluded that my golden had a season allergy that because of lack of treatment became a fungal infection that just kept bothering her.

Emma seems to be boiled down to dry skin and possibly seasonal allergies as well. Fish oil seems to be helping her


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## Sena Hansler

we had to use aloa vera on our doggy's tummy, after she was spayed :/ then keep an eye on her so she didn't lick it off (or lick at the wound anyways). It kept her skin from being so dry.


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## FishyFishy89

Inga said:


> Notice the snaggle tooth smile from a poorly healed broken jaw.


hahah
Emma's got one too!!
Sad about getting a broke jaw tho :'(


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## Sena Hansler

sad how the nice big breeds are used as fight/decoy dogs :/


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## FishyFishy89

I agree Sena. It always makes me cry :'(

I enjoy chatting back n forth about our doggies. So to help this thread stay on track I made a thread to chat about our doggies 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=96135


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## Sena Hansler

haha yay xD


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## FishyFishy89

Back to the topic of pitties...

I love pits. Handsome dogs they are. And sometimes it isn't the handler that makes them bad dogs. Look at genetics. A dog's genetics are somewhat similar to ours. Our anger level, allergies, voice tones, etc are from our mothers and fathers. So it is possible that the backyard breeding helps in creating aggressive dogs.
This is why I think dogs should only be bred by those with a license to do so. Breeding animals requires a no how on genetics and how it affects every single off spring.


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## Aus

It sickens me to see a badly mauled child being blamed for a dog attack. Kids need to be 'trained' too (rich or poor, a brat is a brat), and if a child over the age of five or six is deliberately annoying an animal (prior to that, children really are not all that capable of understanding and need to never be left alone with _anything_ that could hurt them) to the point of biting, my question is - where the hell are that kid's parents, and what are they (not) teaching their child?

My mother (who was mauled by a shepherd as a child) taught me this from the time I could walk: NEVER touch a dog, of any kind at all, even the really cute fluffy ones, _without the owners' permission. _

This very basic bit of common sense was drummed into my head, non-stop. To this day, I will never touch another person's dog without asking the owner if it's okay, every time. Most dog owners really appreciate it as a basic courtesy. 

I've owned a dobie x bull terrier (hoboy, imagine an english bull terrier - on dobie-legged stilts, that was one ugly ass dog), several purebred bullies (piglets, all) and a dingo. The dingo was a challenge and a half, I can tell you. They are terribly difficult to train and have restrictions as to fully enclosed yards, etc, because they can climb a 10 ft wire mesh fence like a monkey if they really want to.. never mind opening high-up rounded door handles with their creepy hand-paws.. and omg, the public reaction.. dingos eat babies, dontcha know!?).

Out of all of those dogs, the only one that needed some very firm "dominance training" (NOT the kind where you HIT the dog...:evil was.. the dingo. As I said, dingos are very hard to train, they look at you like, "Sit? But.. I'm not tired. Thanks anyway." :lol:

I did NOT want a wild-breed dog even begin to imagine he would ever be in control of my household, so we had a lot of work to do there. All the other dogs were taught basic obedience from puppyhood, and I never had a lick of trouble out of any of them. 

I kept those dogs as far away from young kids as I possibly could. It wasn't that I did not trust my dogs - _I didn't trust the kids_. So I kept my big strong dogs away from toddlers and the stupid children of stupider people as best I possibly could, and never, ever left them unsupervised with strangers of any age, and we all had a spectacularly good time.

The things about common sense is - it really isn't all that common.. :-?


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## FishyFishy89

Aus said:


> The things about common sense is - it really isn't all that common.. :-?


And it SUCKS!!!
Oh what I would give to have just ONE person ask me if they could pet my pug.
She maybe small, but just because she is small doesn't mean she cannot accidentally hurt you.
She likes to nom hands (i try to get of rid, but hubs no helps) and she likes to jump on people (another issue hubs is not helping)
Her tooth can hurt, no matter how gentle she thinks she is being. Her claws will hurt you if your wearing shorts.

My pug can hurt someone just as much as a big dog can.


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## Laki

I thought Dingo's were the wild dogs? Why was it "domesticated"??


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## Olympia

fishy- doesn't it suck when other family members aren't on board with dog training? xD


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> fishy- doesn't it suck when other family members aren't on board with dog training? xD


gggrrrrr
I wanna smack him sometimes.:twisted:


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## Aus

FishyFishy89 said:


> Back to the topic of pitties...
> 
> I love pits. Handsome dogs they are. And sometimes it isn't the handler that makes them bad dogs. Look at genetics. A dog's genetics are somewhat similar to ours. Our anger level, allergies, voice tones, etc are from our mothers and fathers. So it is possible that the backyard breeding helps in creating aggressive dogs.
> This is why I think dogs should only be bred by those with a license to do so. Breeding animals requires a no how on genetics and how it affects every single off spring.


I just had to add - how wholeheartedly I agree with your comments regarding backyard breeding (in the sense of indiscriminate breeding). 

I also think pit bulls are really attractive dogs, though I prefer (English) Staffies myself. 

And ... have you ever trained that pug? I doubt it could do the same damage as an angry pit bull (except maybe given several days and a ladder..) but after all, a bite is a bite. If it's habitually nasty - perhaps a few months in kennel club training classes would help?


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## FishyFishy89

Aus said:


> And ... have you ever trained that pug? I doubt it could do the same damage as an angry pit bull (except maybe given several days and a ladder..) but after all, a bite is a bite. If it's habitually nasty - perhaps a few months in kennel club training classes would help?


yup I trained her myself.
I know she herself wouldn't purposely do that kind of damage.
But she has teeth and claws. It doesn't matter the breed behind them. They can do the damage.


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## Aus

> She likes to nom hands


Ooh sorry I misread 'nom' for 'bite' - I get 'nomming' now lol.



Laki said:


> I thought Dingo's were the wild dogs? Why was it "domesticated"??



Dingos have lived with and around humans for perhaps around 60,000 years (from Indonesia, originally). They were brought here by the ancestors of the Aboriginals. They are defined as "wild" because most live that way now. But that long lineage of being in contact with mankind means they are not like wolves (which can also be domesticated, I hear, if not so easily) in that they will happily live alongside people, which is what makes them a danger when idiots decide to camp in dingo territory and think its cute to feed them (like feeding bears?) - they aren't afraid, but aren't domesticated fully and tragedy ensues when little Johnny wants to pet one.

Purebred dingos are becoming endangered, due to crossbreeding in the wild with feral dogs. Keeping them requires a lot of red tape, but it's not illegal in my state, nor discouraged if they are properly handled.

Here's a good wiki article on the pluses and minuses of keeping dingos as 'pets' in Australia (though they are better described as 'companions', imo): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo#As_a_pet_and_working_dog


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## Aus

Oh - and here's something I didn't know..from Wiki:



> Outside of Australia, dingoes were proven to exist in Thailand, based on comparisons between the skulls of Thai dogs and those of fossil and present-day dingoes. The population there probably has the biggest proportion of "pure" dingoes. They are widespread in Northern and Central Thailand and rare in the southern regions.


Dingos _and_ bettas! Not to mention Thai cuisine, which is the yummiest food anywhere. Now I really want to live there..


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## kfryman

Aus you are completely right. If someone just walked up to my dogs and they look like they may do harm to me or who ever cares for them that is walking them they will defend. If the person asks I am fine with them because they sense that I am fine with them.

Pits are loyal to their owners, they will defend them. One of my friends went to give a high five to my sister when she was walking one of them, I had the other, he looked like he was going to attack my sister. She instantly saw that and she lunged because of her instinct to defend my sister.

I got bit by a huge German sheperd, yeah I was scared of him because he had police/guard dog traits. The bite hurt like help, tore my shirt and gave me a huge bruise on my leg. I learned my lesson and had been told that he would do that and knew he does that. I forgot. Dogs can be unpredictable especially by the way they are taught and such. For some reason if I go under a blanket my dogs attack me. It hurts but not that much so I I still do it. Note they can't see me at all, it is funny though.


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## Bombalurina

Aus - you've owned a dingo? Wow. I'm half jealous, half in awe. I don't think I could ever do that. Not because I think they eat babies, though.


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## Aus

Rofl, Bomba. I got sooo sick of all the baby jokes.. and yeah, they're a huge responsibility, occasionally a huge headache, and an equally huge privilege to know. Luckily, my boy was a goofy, lazy thing whose primary motivation in life was figuring out new and improved ways to steal beer. He had a taste for it (not approved at all by me!) and if it wasn't such a problem, it would have been hilarious, all the various 'tricks' he came up with to sneak a beer. Including: opening the fridge and stealing cans which he'd puncture with his teeth so they sprayed everywhere, licking an open stubby at BBQ's so our guests would be grossed out and put it down so he could knock it over, and opening the esky on his own. 

I can't link the story by itself, but if you check out "Mahlee's story" on the testimonial page on the link below, her owner sums up the dingo attitude to regular dog training methods really well: "selectively responsive" :lol:

On top of that, they can and will teach themselves 'tricks' (like the beer..) that are jaw-droppingly intelligent and not always the kind you'd approve of.

http://www.dingo.org.au/

The guy on that site who keeps dingos in the city was a neighbour of mine, and it was such a pleasure to see him walking them. 

There's still a lot of prejudice against these dogs, akin to the kind Pit Bulls get. Mainly in the farm areas, where the only good dingo is a dead one.. Responsible ownership is not easy, though, and god forbid that stupid people would try to raise a dingo. I'm very, very glad that the regulations are as stringent now as they are to prevent the chances of tragedy all round, as well as yet more cross-breeding (why anyone would deliberately outcross a dingo, I do not know! the crossbreds are nowhere near as nice, and purebreds are almost an endangered species!).

Anyhow, sorry for the dingo-prattle. :lol:


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## Oiseau

This thread was amazing to read. I live in an area where pitbulls are constantly being hated on. I grew up with a pitbull and a rottweiler and they're the only reason I'm not terrified of dogs, as I had a very energetic, under-exercised German shepherd "attack" me on many occasions as a child. (She was playing, but not very well trained and not receiving the attention or exercise she needed. And I was too small to play.)

I'm honestly terrified of many smaller breeds. The only ones I've found myself comfortable around are French bulldogs.

(PS. I passed the pitbull test.)


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## Sena Hansler

Guess what I found out? that lady with the "service dog" is a liar. the dog WAS being trained as a service dog, SHE took over AND TAUGHT HIM TO ATTACK IF FEELING THREATENED. That's like telling a serial killer it's okay to kill 500 that are tied up in a room :| That dog, was ALWAYS unstable - I remember seeing him being traine and he was a rotten pick then, he is a rotten pick now! Not only has he lashed out at me, but recently he BIT one of the cashiers. The woman gave the wrong number to the store, and therefore got away with it. 

She was banned from the store, with the dog. Without she is allowed. 

She came in today :|

What if it is a kid who runs by and gets attacked by this "service dog"?? if that woman dies he is automatically euthanised. 

bad dogs are from bad people.


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## dramaqueen

I had a dog that was part poodle and part cocker spaniel, I think. He was a very loyal and very protective dog. He wouldn't let anyone touch him but us. One day my parents were out in the yard with him and some people stopped by. As they were talking, their little girl reached down to pet Max, Before anyone could say anything Max grabbed her wrist. BUT, he didn't bite down or leave any marks on her. I think he knew better than to do that. He was just warning her not to touch him.
On the subject of dachshunds, some neighbors of ours years ago had a dachshund that was one of the meanest little dogs I've ever known in my life. Also, I had a neighbor about 12 years ago that had an obnoxious poodle named Michelle. One day Michelle brings me her ball, drops it in front of me and wags her tail. She looks at me, looks at the ball and wags her tail. When I went to pick up the ball to throw it for her she bit me. Not hard and didn't break the skin but she bit me. When I told my neighbor she says oh, Michelle wouldn't do anything like that. You don't touch Michelle's toys. Grrr


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## Sena Hansler

y'know how dangerous pitbulls are?

my coworker showed off her son's pup. it's a white with brown spotted ears, and a couple brown spots here and there on his back, 8 month old pitbull.

his sister brought over a kitten... and left it there (irresponsible much)
and the dog adopted the cat, the cat adopted the dog and they sleep together :|

scary. :lol: that same coworker had been attacked by an abused (key word) german shephard - bitten right on the face.


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## MollyJean

My pit loves my cats. He sleeps with one and grooms all 3... which means I get kitties covered in doggy slobber. YUCK!


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: :lol: Apparently here, most attacks are from bulldogs and german shephards. watch an Edmonton news report, it's "the dog is suspected to be a german shephard cross" or "the dog is suspected to be a pitbull cross". Then you see the owner (not even upset, crying, angry, nothing!) claim her dog is a sweet pea. >< as she/he lives in a dump of a motel room (no seriously there was one like that! with kids!)


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## revolutionrocknroll

D'aww (about the kitten and puppy). Have you seen Sharky the Pit Bull? He's a dog that's friends with everyone. There are all these videos on youtube of him snuggling with kittens and grooming baby bunnies and chilling with iguanas. It's so cute.


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## Sena Hansler

lol awww =D I think the last time we saw a pitbull in the SPCA his name was Smiley  HE SMILED!!!!!!  I wanted him but noooo lol wasn't allowed a strong/big breed because my mom is iffy about dogs :|

but...but...but...he smiles :-( :lol:


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## revolutionrocknroll

My humane society had a smiling dog! She was a hound mix but she had to be relinquished because the owner's insurance company thought she was a pit bull (she clearly wasn't...). She was such a sweet girl. A little dog aggressive though.


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## Sena Hansler

yeah my dad's hound mix is dog aggressive. she used to be really good, then I don't know... she decided she didn't like dogs :/ it was so weird!! didn't help I was the only one who walked her though x.x


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## revolutionrocknroll

Hmm, that's weird. Did she interact with dogs a lot prior to being dog aggressive? If not, her social skills might have gotten a bit rusty and led her to feel uncomfortable around other dogs.


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## Sena Hansler

I'm not sure. I made sure to interact with other dogs (along with that scary skateboards and those bicycles :lol. but I think it was that year we had -55 (celsius) kind of winter weather :/ she wouldn't go out to pee lol let alone a walk.

how exactly do you get them socialized for winter?? x.x our weather sucks xD although, I took her to work in the petstore with me. she snapped at the store's dog, and I made her lay until I said so. she never snapped again, happily.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Maybe she had a bad experience with other dogs that scared her?

For winter? Like playing with other dogs during winter or being socialized to the changes in winter (coats, boots, sleds, shovels, etc)?

I can imagine your weather being bad in Canada, I'm from VT and it gets pretty bad here xD I don't know what it's like though where you live but I still bring my dog to off leash areas, dog parks, etc just not for as long of a period. My dog's very dog friendly but she's also getting old so she can be snappy with puppies (my neighbor's sheltie pup once tried to herd her. She did not like that at all xD)

As for winter socialization with a puppy... haha, that's a problem because there's a 4 month socialization period and people only have puppies for two of those months. If you get it in the summer it won't be socialized well for winter and if you get it in the winter it won't be socialized well for summer. For winter objects just wearing coats and boots and showing them shovels and exposing them to as much as possible that you can always helps.


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## Sena Hansler

exposing them to dogs during winter lol. it's hard! I tried, on the warmer days of winter but that year sucked.


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## tpocicat

When my pit bull was younger, he sometimes showed a little aggressive toward dogs not my own. We just let him know that we didn't approve of such behavior and he learned to ignore other dogs. I also have a wolf dog, funny thing is that people want to pet him, all they see is a husky mix.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Lol, oh yeah. I guess if your dog makes a friend over the summer you can have indoor play dates- although indoors isn't really ideal for playing, especially with big dogs. Are there any training facilities, humane society, or even a veterinarian clinic near you (a business that deals with dogs) that might be interested in having a play group or socialization group?
If not I guess maybe you could make one, but that doesn't really solve the problem of WHERE they could socialize...


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: I've seen both a husky cross and a wolf cross. there is some difference  but shhh don't tell them that :3 :lol: 

I saw a pitbull mastiff  weird dog. BIG dog.

you know where we have an offleash area? in an UNFENCED field next to a deer's grazing spot and construction.and they refuse to put a fence up even after we all complained -.- there's no spot here. camrose sucks. :lol:


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## revolutionrocknroll

tpocicat, is he low or mid content? That must be really cool owning a wolfdog. I used to research them but I realized that I'm not even going to have enough time for a dog puppy for a while (years and years), let alone one that's part wolf! xD


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## Aus

> On the subject of dachshunds, some neighbors of ours years ago had a dachshund that was one of the meanest little dogs I've ever known in my life.


Here's the thing about dachshunds. They are not "small dogs". They are medium sized dogs with dwarfed legs. But because they are short (I am for now disregarding the minis) they are treated like little lap dogs.

Dachshunds were bred for going down badger holes and dragging an angry, scared badger out of the hole - by its face. Badgers are _really, really, _unpleasant animals when upset. The dachshund is tenacious and aggressive because that is what helped it not only do its designated job - but survive it.

Therefore, they are NOT dogs I would ever recommend to be left around small children (or adults..or other dogs... or cats...) which are not part of the family 'pack' without some pretty tight supervision. They will defend your child by mistake from other children, and are not shy about nipping even their own kids if they feel it's warranted. 

The women in my family have kept these dogs for three generations. My own dakkie was put down due to a terrible disc injury (which they are prone to, especially now they're so severely over-bred and in-bred for the show circuit and puppy farms .. don't even get me started on those wads..). He was mean as hell, but never bit because I handled him properly and in a way appropriate to his breed. This did not reduce his naturally high level of aggression, it was just re-channelled into areas that were not objectionable.

My grandma has a story about grandpa taking her dakkies out on a pig hunt as a joke. The pig dogs lost the injured boar and the hunt came home pigless - and without the dakkies as well. My grandpa slept on the couch for days. Then the dakkies came home. They'd found the pig, finished it off, and dragged it several miles back to the farm. None of the men ever called my nanna's dogs wussy again.

So yeah, basically they are not an 'easy' dog to keep. They require some special handling. But if handled well, they are brilliant, well-behaved and scarily loyal dogs. Misinformation about the breed leads to a lot of bitten kids.


ETA: I have to add here, my dakkie was rescued from a BYB puppy miller who had dog poo all over her house, didn't believe in training and kept all her males in one huge cage, where they had to fight it out for food. 

The dog was a psychological mess. He also had a weak back, from the BYB's idiotic (non existent) 'breeding program'. But in a week, he was house trained, basic obedience trained and was controlling his aggression well. In three weeks, I could allow kids to play with him (not unsupervised). I could not, however, despite every effort made, ever reduce his aggression toward other dogs which he'd had to develop to survive in that cage froma small pup (he was 1.5 years when I got him). I have never met a dog so darned eager to please and be loved, in my life. Bless him.


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## tpocicat

He is mid content. It took a LOT of work to convince him he couldn't be the alpha in my pack LOL, but he is a really special boy. My daughter and I also did a lot of homework and helped at a wolf/wolf dog rescue before we decided we were ready.
Also, my vet has him down as a husky mix, just in case the laws change around here.


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## Aus

> My daughter and I also did a lot of homework and helped at a wolf/wolf dog rescue before we decided we were ready.


That's awesome. I love hearing stuff like that. I've read a little about wolf dogs/wolves and even after owning a dingo, I'd think twice about taking on that challenge. I'd love to hear more about your experiences in owning a wild breed dog. Do you have a blog, or maybe a thread here about him?


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## tpocicat

No, I don't have enough time to keep a blog up. I'm having enough trouble getting enough pics of my betta fry on the breeding forum! LOL. I helped move a wolfdog from my area to the rescue just outside of Sacramento. That was when I fell in love with them.
When my wolfdog got a little older, he started sitting on our mutt and pinning her to the ground! She would snap all over the place, but couldn't reach him. We then adopted another wolfdog female which was Malimute/wolf, very low content, but big enough to teach him his manners! The main thing that needs to be remembered with wild type dogs is that YOU must always be the alpha.


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## Sena Hansler

haha THAT is actually kinda cute ol. a dog sitting on the other one >< meanie :lol:


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## tpocicat

Yes, he would just sit there lolling his tongue out in a big doggy grin.


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## FishyFishy89

tpocicat said:


> No, I don't have enough time to keep a blog up. I'm having enough trouble getting enough pics of my betta fry on the breeding forum! LOL. I helped move a wolfdog from my area to the rescue just outside of Sacramento. That was when I fell in love with them.
> When my wolfdog got a little older, he started sitting on our mutt and pinning her to the ground! She would snap all over the place, but couldn't reach him. We then adopted another wolfdog female which was Malimute/wolf, very low content, but big enough to teach him his manners! The main thing that needs to be remembered with wild type dogs is that YOU must always be the alpha.


Wolf dogs are gorgeous animals. They should only be handled my experienced handlers. I'd love to own one some day.
But I'd also love to have a family and I'm not entirely comfy having a half wild animal around my children. They'd be just as unpredictable as my horses.


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## FishyFishy89

tpocicat said:


> Yes, he would just sit there lolling his tongue out in a big doggy grin.


You mean like this? LOL


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## Sena Hansler

exactly, like that. :lol:


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## tpocicat

My "baby" is 30, so I don't think I have to worry about that. And you're right, people with little children should be more careful than I have to be.
But my main reason for even mentioning my wolfdogs is that most people aren't as afraid of them when they see them than they are around my pitt.


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## FishyFishy89

tpocicat said:


> My "baby" is 30, so I don't think I have to worry about that. And you're right, people with little children should be more careful than I have to be.


I probly won't even let my children around horses until my lectures have been imprinted into their skulls.
They might have to rehearse my lectures on the way to the barn xD


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## Sena Hansler

:lol:


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## tpocicat

:lol: A+


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## dramaqueen

I have also petsat for a Shih. Tzu who was dog aggressive. If he saw another dog he would go crazy wanting to tear it apart.


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## Laki

Wow, never thought of dachshunds like that before! I guess it makes more sense that they're medium dogs with dwarfed legs. Except I was walking my dog last summer in a fancy neighborhood (because I like to look at the houses and fantasize about owing one) and there was a man walking a mini dakkie. Coco fell head over heels for her! It was like watching an old man fall in love for a young virgin! I was always afraid of the back problems in dachshunds though!  

Shih tzu's are the like the most common breed in my city. EVERYONE and their mother has one. So they're not my favorite breed because I have seen plenty of badly cared for tzu's. :/ I don't like small dog barking, like pomeranians. They're not even that cute to me anymore, poms. Yorkies are adorable!! I used to work at a drug store across the street from a senior's home. One of the patrons would bring his super senior yorkie in for exercise (because outside was too windy or too cold) and the dog would walk around the store. I t was 15 when he passed away but by then he had no fur, a lop ear, no teeth, tongue hanging out, cataracts... Oh man- it was ugly!! lol


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## KaraAnne

I work at a vet clinic & we see soooooooo many sweet pitbulls on a daily basis! We actually see way more aggressive shepherds than we do aggressive pits (and I have 2 shepherds who are absolute sweethearts!) ... I really believe it's how they are raised, not the breed itself. In fact, my brother-in-law has a pit-mix & she is super sweet & loves my 3 nieces ... she would never ever hurt them! People are just ignorant!


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## Thomasdog

Ok guys,
I have a mini dachshund. Personallly,I believe the owner is responsible for the dog's attitude. My dog, Thomas, is a MD, and let me tell you a bit about him: He had back surgery when he was 5, and had been really nervous since. He knows when he does something wrong, and LOVES my little 3some family (me, mom, dad). He still has wild instincts, hunts, (he attacked a possum last night and we had to LITERALLY drag him away from it.) and he is a dog. Dogs will never be perfect, but it is up to us to make their and our lives together as wonderful as possible. Even if your dog is a bit mean, aggressive, or scared, it is up to you to find what triggers your dog and fix it. Maybe not fix it, as Thomas' will never be allowed to be petted by anyone but us, but he has a wonderful happy life. He has done agility, Earthdog, Field Trials, Dachshund races, and even a dog show. He may not be social, but he is ours, and we love him because he loves us. He has never shown aggression towards us. So, I ask you, all you pitt/dachsund haters, IS IT REALLY THE DOG? And can it be fixed?

Thank you


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## Olympia

I think all these problems come from NOT understanding your breed.
Doxie's tend to be sensitive little guys, and are not good for kids that handle them roughly, they are prone to back issues.
Shepherds and other intelligent breeds need to have a job and be trained.
Yorkies are terriers and need to do terrier things (they often get grouped in the "toy" section by people nowadays).
Breed matters.. Bad behavior comes from a dog that isn't provided with the level of exercise or training he was bred to do, or in a doxie's case, consideration that he's NOT a good dog to have children jumping all over. This is the root of all bad behavior in dogs. If you aren't prepared to accommodate for your breed, then you shouldn't get that breed


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## Laki

Oh man, that's how I had to face living with my terrier!! Against mom's better judgement she traded our then aggressive (half wild) dog for the cute little terrier puppy (Coco). Nobody was prepared for the level of exercise he had, which led to his problems. It helped me learn about the terrier group though! I love that group, I really do. I wouldn't have a terrier now while I'm in school because it wouldn't be fair to the dog while I'm away in the library or whatever. 
But I agree whole heartedly, most people do NOT look into the dog's needs and it ends up in the shelters as a "bad" dog.


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## dramaqueen

I have another neighbor who has a yorkie schnauzer mix. That dog is hyper and happy. My neighbor is 87 years old and,IMO too old for such an active dog. Gertie is a sweet dog but can be a pain in the neck sometimes when I'm down there.


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## Aus

Thomasdog said:


> So, I ask you, all you pitt/dachsund haters, IS IT REALLY THE DOG? And can it be fixed?
> Thank you


Yes, it's the dog.

But the dog attacking is not the dog's fault. It is (except in the case of brain tumors, etc) 100% the fault of the owner. 

Nobody should be in denial about any dog's capacity to do harm. And the severity of that potential harm increases with the size/weight of the dog concerned. 

You can show me stats proving chihuahuas can viciously attack all day, but in the end I am not going to have my throat torn out by one.

Not saying small dogs don't attack or don't need every bit as much training, I'm saying that owners of large, aggressive breeds need to quit being stupidly precious about their animals and admit to the challenges of the dog they choose to own, just as much as they need to take a responsible path in training and socialising that dog.

Because wailing about how they can't possibly understand their darling, sweet, wuvvable doggy tearing that little kids face off AFTER the harm is done doesn't remove the fact that the owner is _100% guilty_ for that death or injury. Not the dog. Not the kid. _The owner. _

I believe people should be given appropriate jail terms and made 100% financially liable for the harm their dogs do.


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## Savannah

Agreed. my freind has a 7 year old pitbull and she is the SWEETEST dog EVER all she wants to do is kiss you,lay in your lap,and play ball.Society has created a horrible image about them that some people will beleive.My freind regularly goes to shelter websites and post pictures of pits in need of a home on facebook.


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## Laki

I have a couple people on my facebook who post pics of end-of-the-line-will-be-destoyed-tomorrow pitbulls (and pit mixes).. Honestly, I don't what that will achive because as good hearted as I think it is, nobody on my facebook is going to fly to Boston or New York and adopt one of these dogs. The pics only make one saddened with inability..


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## Sena Hansler

I agree :/ I mean it is a nice gesture, if you live near those parts but it doesn't help any when you are 500 miles or so way :lol:


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## registereduser

Laki said:


> I have a couple people on my facebook who post pics of end-of-the-line-will-be-destoyed-tomorrow pitbulls (and pit mixes).. Honestly, I don't what that will achive because as good hearted as I think it is, nobody on my facebook is going to fly to Boston or New York and adopt one of these dogs. The pics only make one saddened with inability..


I have several national rescues on my twitter stream and that's all they post. It's to the point where I think I might have to un-friend them because I feel the same as you.


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## styggian

Pitluvs said:


> I just read through the post and I have to say I have lost all respect for certain people on here. I'm out of this topic. This is the reason I love my Pitbull, because she's not a one sided judgmental person who basis everything on personal experience and doesn't take 5 minutes of their day to get to know dogs for their individual personalities. Why don't we make a thread about African Americans so people can bash the whole race because one black man may have shot someone in their home town? Seems kinda ridiculous, and so does this.
> 
> To make that more clear, my Pitbull judges no one and loves everyone she meets. Some humans could learn a lesson from her. My own mother taught me not to judge people by race, or animals by breeds but each person and animal as individuals. And with that, I will teach my children the same way.


Absolutely agreed. I know I'm knew here and not well known at all, I'm not a big member with a ton of respect or friends or a recognizable name, so I'm sure no one cares what I think, but this entire thread is making me sick to my stomach. I've lost a lot of respect for people that I thought had better heads on their shoulders, had more empathy, and were more openminded.

I guess I was mistaken, and that is extremely disappointing. 

You'd think that owners of an abused and deeply misunderstood animal would have more forethought to educate themselves out of the awful stereotypes that bully breeds face. Clearly I was wrong in that assumption. It doesn't MATTER that a pit, staff, or bulldog can kill someone. So can every other flipping animal out there. Horses, cows, nearly all dog breeds, even CATS can seriously harm someone, and potentially lead to death.

But gods forbid we take that fact in account, no let's just damn a breed of dog because people abuse and mistreat it.

I'm completely disgusted.


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## styggian

I wrote that when I was about halfway through, so it's nice to see the tone has shifted a little, but I am still extremely disappointed and upset with several different things said here.

I avoided this thread for just this reason, and my first instinct was right that I shouldn't have read it.

Some day I want an English bull terrier, but that might never happen because of BSL and people irrationally afraid of bullies.


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## FishyFishy89

styggian said:


> I wrote that when I was about halfway through, so it's nice to see the tone has shifted a little, but I am still extremely disappointed and upset with several different things said here.
> 
> I avoided this thread for just this reason, and my first instinct was right that I shouldn't have read it.
> 
> Some day I want an English bull terrier, but that might never happen because of BSL and people irrationally afraid of bullies.


There are alot of people willing to pet your dog than there are people who would rather avoid your dog.

Everyone will disappoint you one way or another. That shouldn't change your respect for nearly everyone on this forum. This is a betta forum. Not a dog forum. Run to a dog forum and you are likely to find more users that are more understanding than here. Just don't go to PDGS Forums. They'll jump on you for the smallest thing and send you off the forums.


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## styggian

FishyFishy89 said:


> There are alot of people willing to pet your dog than there are people who would rather avoid your dog.
> 
> Everyone will disappoint you one way or another. That shouldn't change your respect for nearly everyone on this forum. This is a betta forum. Not a dog forum. Run to a dog forum and you are likely to find more users that are more understanding than here. Just don't go to PDGS Forums. They'll jump on you for the smallest thing and send you off the forums.


It's not everyone, and it's a few, and clearly everyone can disappoint in some way. That's not the point of contention for me. It's a betta forum but the topic was about dogs, that is why my reaction and reply is specific to the attitude of dogs.

I've read a few things here about bettas that have been very upsetting, and I have mental notes for that, too.

I've never had a dog, but I want one. Either a staffordshire terrier or an English bull terrier. Even if I could afford it, my roommate wouldn't allow a bully for exactly the same misguided and illogical reasons that many have stated here.


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## Sena Hansler

I kind of think it is offensive to say "lost respect for some of the people on here". although I know what you meant and were getting at, it's like saying "I don't respect you because your views suck" without looking at the whole picture. I don't like chihuahuas, because I have bad experience... some people on here do not like pitbulls because of bad experiences. it takes time, therapy and willingness to realize "it's okay" and the fear isn't irrational - it's understandable. 

if you lose respect towards those who've had bad experiences, that is a bit harsh, and quite disrespectful. I understand if it were "pitbulls ARE bad and stupid dogs no one should own them" but a lot of the "pitbulls are bad" kind of posts were from people who had experience with how vicious they can be. a memory can be a haunting, terrible thing sometimes.

just my opinion


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## LionCalie

Someone posted this on facebook and I felt the need to share.


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## Sena Hansler

that is true :lol:

what is the point of docking anyways?  I remember reading a story, which mentioned the dogs getting docked... pups barely a couple weeks old had their cute little ears docked and "looked pitiful" as said in the story :/ doesn't it cause more problems to dock??


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## MollyJean

I've heard the reason to doc tails is because a pit's tail is very powerful and can hurt if it hits you by accident, but it seems like an excuse. The ear docking.. is just cosmetic, and not needed at all.


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## FishyFishy89

Sena Hansler said:


> that is true :lol:
> 
> what is the point of docking anyways?  I remember reading a story, which mentioned the dogs getting docked... pups barely a couple weeks old had their cute little ears docked and "looked pitiful" as said in the story :/ doesn't it cause more problems to dock??


Are you referring to ears or tails?
Docking is what is done to the tails
Cropping is what is done to the ears

Ear cropping makes the dog look meaner and more aggressive. For certain breeds (like the doberman) it makes them appear more alert, protective and noble.
I'm not sure on tail docking, i believe it is just a fad that became breed standard for some breeds.


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## Sena Hansler

whoops! cropping, sorry :lol: I have heard of people docking their dog's tails (no matter the large breed) because and I quote, their "kid got knocked over and bumped their head" -.- I knew someone with two boxers who got their ears cropped. They had nothing but infection after infection after problem with their ears


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## FishyFishy89

Sena Hansler said:


> whoops! cropping, sorry :lol: I have heard of people docking their dog's tails (no matter the large breed) because and I quote, their "kid got knocked over and bumped their head" -.- I knew someone with two boxers who got their ears cropped. They had nothing but infection after infection after problem with their ears


Thats interesting. Dogs with floppy ears usually have more ear problems than dogs with cropped ears.


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## Sena Hansler

well I've seen non-floppy eared doggies get cropped :/ and does them no good :-(

Although our beagle/basset does get dust build up under her ears xD we have to clean them out, once a week, and she hates it...but it helps.


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## Olympia

Yea the main argument for ears is that less infection gets in them.. We've never had problems with floppy eared boxers though.
I've never really known a reason for tail docking though, it used to be so any wild animal/dog would have less to bite, since tails break easily and it is a painful break.. Now I believe the purpose is considered more "preserving the historic image."
I know tails are docked when pups are under 5 days old.. the nerves in the tail aren't fully developed, so it's not as bad as it could be.. still painful, you cut the link between the bone.. Ears are cut when dogs are under anesthesia, and you have to be really on top of it for the weeks after, changing bandages, to prevent an infection!


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## kfryman

There is an advertisement on the side that is for muscles, guess what dog is on there? A pitbull with cropped ears and is barking... I hate things like this.


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## Olympia

Every single ad on this site for me is aquarium related.. filters, tanks..
One time I looked at rabbit cages, and I had rabbit cages on the side for 2 days.. 
It KNOWS what you were searching online o-o
-so off topic-


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> Yea the main argument for ears is that less infection gets in them.. We've never had problems with floppy eared boxers though.
> I've never really known a reason for tail docking though, it used to be so any wild animal/dog would have less to bite, since tails break easily and it is a painful break.. Now I believe the purpose is considered more "preserving the historic image."
> I know tails are docked when pups are under 5 days old.. the nerves in the tail aren't fully developed, so it's not as bad as it could be.. still painful, you cut the link between the bone.. Ears are cut when dogs are under anesthesia, and you have to be really on top of it for the weeks after, changing bandages, to prevent an infection!


yes
that was the most annoying thing to deal with when I got my doberman. If I get another doberman it will have fully healed cropped ears.
To me, it looks weird to see a floppy eared doberman.


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## Olympia

I agree.. I've always wanted a noble majestic crop eared doberman.. However the only trustworthy cropper in Ontario lives 5 hours away and it takes weeks to get an appointment with him.. Far too late to crop her. I'd be too scared to go to just anyone. So my girl shall remain floppy!
I think cropping is fine, as long as you go to a responsible vet, and take care of the ears after.. Tail docking strikes me as worse even o-o
I want to become a vet, and I honestly don't know if I'd be willing to provide either service to people.


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## Aus

Cropping is not a popular thing here, and never has been - thank goodness. I think cropped ears look weird and unnatural, not noble at all. They look exactly like the mutilation they are, and the fact that it's NOT done for the dog's benefit, but to satisfy the owner's desire for a certain 'image' imposed on the dog (an image, btw, that makes a total mockery of all the complaints about the breed's aggressive public image - as it's only aggressive-image breeds that get ears docked to make them look more aggressive, it doesn't happen to poodles..) -- I find that terribly hypocritical as well as incredibly selfish. 

Sadly, docking is as just as prevalent here as in the States. I always feel a happy little glow when I see a lovely dobermann or rotty with natural ears & tail, way more magnificent in their natural, un-mutilated state. 

I'm not a fan of animal mutilation, in case you couldn't tell..;-)


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## Olympia

Just wanted to say- cropped ears, not scary 

I don't mind the look.. but like as said, as a vet, I don't think I'd have the heart to cut a newborn pup's tail off.


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## Aus

Agreed, not scary.

Deformed and unnatural. But not scary.


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## Olympia

I understand your point. It's changing the animal cosmetically. It's already illegal in the EU and a few other places. Fewer and fewer vets do it here in Canada. In a way it does make me happy.. but in another way, I think these dogs just look funny with long tails and such (personal opinion). I think if it became illegal I'd have to get a dog that isn't traditionally docked. 
That comment was more toward the fact that that's a toy breed dog and you said they only crop big tough dogs. Btw, tail docking is fairly common in poodles.  
http://www.gentledoberman.com/doberman-pinscher-ear-cropping/controversy
The argument presented by Gentle Doberman says that cropped is the natural form of the ear.. o-o I guess it's just a personal perspective. I was personally hesitant to consider cropping, even if it would have been possible, due to the way people look at a dobie with cropped ears, not everyone sees "noble". It's something that we will never agree on 
Either way, if people are doing it responsibly, I don't have much problem.. Those idiots that just hack off a pitbull's ears with a dull knife should be locked away for a long time however.


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## Laki

MollyJean said:


> I've heard the reason to doc tails is because a pit's tail is very powerful and can hurt if it hits you by accident,


Has anybody ever been whipped by a greyhound's tail!??!? OUCH! Yet you never see a docked grey. Greyhounds are hardly dogs at all though! ;-) Just silly clowns <3



FishyFishy89 said:


> Ear cropping makes the dog look meaner and more aggressive. For certain breeds (like the doberman) it makes them appear more alert, protective and noble.
> I'm not sure on tail docking, i believe it is just a fad that became breed standard for some breeds.


 I don't think the dog looks "noble".. My opinion is that the owner wanted it done for appearances. The Great Dane's cropped ears make it look somewhat more noble than floppy danes but I'd rather a clown any day!
Tail docking, I'm not sure in some breeds but in tradition here in Newfoundland, the beagle is the most widely used hunting dog. They are so abused and neglected that I just cannot describe the cruelty done to them (www.beaglepaws.com is a good start though) Some hunters dock the tails to prevent it from getting damaged in the s****y kennels they live in and from excitement during the hunt.. Though I think that's a load of ****. 



Olympia said:


> Yea the main argument for ears is that less infection gets in them.. We've never had problems with floppy eared boxers though.
> 
> I know tails are docked when pups are under 5 days old.. the nerves in the tail aren't fully developed, so it's not as bad as it could be.. still painful, you cut the link between the bone.. Ears are cut when dogs are under anesthesia, and you have to be really on top of it for the weeks after, changing bandages, to prevent an infection!


Floppy ears = infection? That's only true if the owner fails to clean them!!! My terrier got only one ear infection during his life, although his ears were short.. I think cropped boxers look weird, I like floppy. 

When tail docking is done by a registered vet, and responsible breeders it is done within 5 days. HOWEVER, to save money, many hunters here (and many byb's) do it themselves with elastic bands. Slowly and painfully the circulation is cut off and infection wipes off the tail. Sometimes the would heals, sometimes it remains infected and then the cruel experimenter must treat that with homemade antibiotics or whatever they have on hand to avoid the vet. Trust me, I've seen some pretty bad beagle cases. 



Olympia said:


> Every single ad on this site for me is aquarium related.. filters, tanks..
> One time I looked at rabbit cages, and I had rabbit cages on the side for 2 days..
> It KNOWS what you were searching online o-o
> -so off topic-


 www.adblockpro.com it's freeeeee!!!! And I never see ads!


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## registereduser

Aus said:


> Cropping is not a popular thing here, and never has been - thank goodness. I think cropped ears look weird and unnatural, not noble at all. They look exactly like the mutilation they are, and the fact that it's NOT done for the dog's benefit, but to satisfy the owner's desire for a certain 'image' imposed on the dog (an image, btw, that makes a total mockery of all the complaints about the breed's aggressive public image - as it's only aggressive-image breeds that get ears docked to make them look more aggressive, it doesn't happen to poodles..) -- I find that terribly hypocritical as well as incredibly selfish.
> 
> Sadly, docking is as just as prevalent here as in the States. I always feel a happy little glow when I see a lovely dobermann or rotty with natural ears & tail, way more magnificent in their natural, un-mutilated state.
> 
> I'm not a fan of animal mutilation, in case you couldn't tell..;-)


+++++1


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## FishyFishy89

Laki said:


> Floppy ears = infection? That's only true if the owner fails to clean them!!! My terrier got only one ear infection during his life, although his ears were short.. I think cropped boxers look weird, I like floppy.


floppy ears are at a higher risk of getting an infection. no one said floppy ears = infection


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## Olympia

Laki said:


> Floppy ears = infection? That's only true if the owner fails to clean them!!! My terrier got only one ear infection during his life, although his ears were short.. I think cropped boxers look weird, I like floppy.
> 
> When tail docking is done by a registered vet, and responsible breeders it is done within 5 days. HOWEVER, to save money, many hunters here (and many byb's) do it themselves with elastic bands. Slowly and painfully the circulation is cut off and infection wipes off the tail. Sometimes the would heals, sometimes it remains infected and then the cruel experimenter must treat that with homemade antibiotics or whatever they have on hand to avoid the vet. Trust me, I've seen some pretty bad beagle cases.
> 
> 
> www.adblockpro.com it's freeeeee!!!! And I never see ads!


Beagle's get docked?
I know that tying a string around the tail is a popular thing to do with lambs. No one wants to spend money on that, especially if it's just going to end up a lamb chop. Long tails get dirty pretty quick on sheep.. but I think an open gaping wound would too!
I knew a boxer once.. he got his tail done by an inexperienced vet.. They stitch the tail.. but the stitch got loose, and the tail kind of grew out into a V shape.. nasty. 

I'll have to try the add thing!  Thanks!


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## Sena Hansler

haha didn't mean they only crop big dogs  I meant, in the sense of that one person saying "oh my large breed dog needed his tail cut off because he knocked over my kid" is silly :3 That dog... had damages to his nerves, took forever to heal, and overall a mess :-(


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## Olympia

Yea, that's a stupid reason to amputate an adult dogs tail... Amputate seems like a better term for doing that to an adult dog. I can't see why a vet would do that. Besides keeping that dog out of a shelter.. My friends golden retriever has the strongest tail ever.. Like it hurts.. They just learned to keep the coffee table clear


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## Sena Hansler

Well there is ONE reason a vet would allow it.. The dog had broken the tail so bad, they needed to amputate. I know some people's dogs have had to have that happen :-( better than having it painfully heal and have a crooked tail that could re-fracture.


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## Olympia

Yes, but that is a totally logical reason to take it off. -pictures golden retriever with no tail- hehehe.. Odd.


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## Sena Hansler

:lol:


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## Laki

When it's done for the heath for the animal, and not appearances, then I can agree on docking. I guess people seem to forget that their tails are actually their elongated spine and therefore are full of nerves and good stuff. 

Yep, beagles are sometimes docked in my province. Not legally. The rescue Beagle Paws (Canada's largest beagle rescue... Go figure) takes in hundreds of dogs a year. Some are docked, some aren't. But the method to do so is generally tie a band around and "wait till it falls off". I'm almost dead sure even they DID bring their beagles into a vet that the vet would refuse to dock their tails.


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## Sena Hansler

.... How would people like their fingers tied off with a band so we can wait for them to fall off -.- truthfully, lol. We don't do it to people - but we do it to "man's best friend" :/ pits and such are "man's best friend" and yet some people treat them badly. If I ever treated a human best friend like that, I wouldn't have one!


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## revolutionrocknroll

Labs are strong dogs and knock a lot of things over with their tails. Also, I've been hit with lab tails and it HURTS xD And I would never advocate docking tails. I have a cockapoo and so many people dock their cockapoos' tails and I think it's unnecessary. I think their tails are adorable. Dogs also use their tails to communicate so for that reason alone I would never dock a dog's tail. 
I did see a pit bull that was used in search and rescue and had cropped ears to help him hear better. I don't know if that helped or not, but if it did it would make sense for reasons like that. Otherwise, I wouldn't do it. 
I've seen breeds like danes and dobermans with both cropped and floppy ears, and I'm not going to lie, I can see how it looks handsome, but I wouldn't do that either unless I had a good reason (medical reasons, if the search and rescue excuse was viable, etc). And I think pit bulls look adorable with floppy ears 

Did you know that floppy ears are pretty much only found in domestic animals (I'm sure there might be a few exceptions though)? Scientists believe that they, and several other physical traits, are linked to the gene for tameness. I was just discussing the silver fox experiment today. Basically foxes were bred by scientists and selected for tameness and as they became more domestic they also started getting traits characteristic to domestic animals like floppy ears, patched coats, they started barking like dogs, etc. It's very interesting.
Some of these traits are actually found in juvenile animals (floppy ears, shorter snouts, shorter legs, etc) because breeding for tameness is actually selecting for a more immature animal (young animals are usually more friendly and accepting while adults are more aggressive.)


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## Laki

That silver fox experiment, the one in Russia? I read briefly about that in psychology. I think it's a little messed up since there are so many breeds and pets already and the silver fox had no real "job" other than tamied to be a house pet. That's fine I guess, because you see in a few short generations the process of domestication. The floppy ear thing is SO interesting! Looking at it though I see it's true (lop rabbits, dumbo rats, scottish fold cat . . .) They don't need their ears for relying on hearing prey or predator I guess!


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## revolutionrocknroll

Well I think the purpose in the silver fox experiment was that it was a experiment to research genetics and evolution. But it was also creating a more domestic animal for fur farms. Like, it's easier to have domestic cows and chickens for farming but that doesn't mean that they're going to be used as pets.
But I agree with you, it is very interesting.

Here's a good in-depth clip about the silver foxes and dog evolution if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcwDXhugjw


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## Laki

Right... Fur farms. There's another topic for debate I'm sure. Yes yes, you'll want tamed foxes.


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## Olympia

LOL I'm sure everyone on here hates fur farms and fur 
The only time I'd justify it is if you use the whole animal.. eg a meat rabbit's fur being used. Of course you can't trust stores so you'd have to be buying local. Which is also good! Either way, faux fur satisfies all my needs. xD


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## revolutionrocknroll

I don't agree with wearing fur... I'm just saying that the purpose of the foxes wasn't for pets. And people in Russia 50 years ago had different ethical views than we do today. And it really was a scientific experiment- I think the fur part was secondary.
Anyways it provides great insights into how genetics, evolution, and the domestication of animals works.


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## twinjupiter

Olympia said:


> Pit bulls are not human aggressive at all. They do have natural dog aggression, but this is why you have to socialize them.


I disagree. Pitbulls and all dogs have to be socialized in order to get along or be comfortable around or with other dogs, people, places and new objects. Think of dog on dog socialization as a language class. The more your dog socializes with other dogs in an appropriate way, the less likely they will be dog aggressive in the future because they have more tools to communicate. I do agree that fighters are bred for more dog related aggression traits, but not all pittes will be dog aggressive. 

One thing I will say is that pitties and other bully breeds (rotties, bull terriers, am staffs, etc) all have problems controlling arousal levels as they age. This is why people use them for fighting. High arousal equals less self control and an increased likely hood of tipping (or going from playing to fighting) or aggression.

Side Note:
I am a positive reinforcement dog trainer/dog daycare manager who has been working with dogs for over 5 years. I have also attended multiple dog behavior seminars and teach intermediate obedience classes. My daycare background keeps me in the know with dogs and dog behavior. I do not agree with Dominance theory as it is outdated and disproven. I am also a OSCT, or Operation Socialization Certified Trainer. (www.operationsocialization.com)


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## Olympia

Oh don't worry, our eastern ethics havent changed that much in 50 years lol. Still pretty crazy out there! 
The fox population never got that high, funding was cut and most were culled, someone started breeding for pets with remaining livestock I believe. Today's population remains small.


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## revolutionrocknroll

Interesting... I did hear that bully breeds are more easily aroused, but I didn't know that it increased as they aged.
I do agree that socialization is one of the most important things you can do to have a non aggressive, non fearful dog.
I also agree with you about dominance theory.

I also agree with what you quoted though- ideally the breed isn't human aggressive because they had to be easy to handle but they can have dog aggression issues.

Edit: Yeah, I agree Olympia, about the eastern ethics. Especially in Asia. It kind of disappoints me. (Although I'm not saying that everyone in the east has those ethics about animal welfare. And pretty awful things happen in the west as well.)


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## Olympia

Hana I'm from eastern poland and it's already crazy there. Dogs running lose everywhere, no such thing as spaying and neutering, you drown puppies if you don't want them  kittens too..

I remember Tia M (pits and parolees) saying she had two pits that were best buds, no problems ever. One day for no apparent reason they tore each other up, huge wounds. A few seconds later they were actig like it never happened and were licking each others wounds... o-o 
By natural aggression.. I mean it's in them more.. You can fix it but it takes much more work.. Like training a sight hound to fetch. Hard, not impossible. Every dog is unique and they don't always conform to their breed.


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## LionCalie

Here is another one that a friend shared on facebook:


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## revolutionrocknroll

Olympia, you're from Poland? That's so cool! My mom's side of the family is Polish. I do have to say though, that does happen in the US, and I've seen it myself in Central and South America. I just think that humans in general have to have more respect for other creatures.


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## Olympia

Yupp! I have plans on moving back to Europe also. Aiming for Norway, but anywhere could work. I hate this side of the world lol. Just the food.. In Europe it tastes so much better! Not half as many preservatives. 
Personally I believe not too much will change for the animals in these places until the people can take care of themselves better. I think once the boy from my village who's 17 with down syndrome gets proper care, instead of sitting outside drinking vodka and smoking all day, then it'd be more appropriate to worry about drowning puppies. (true story, no one cares about him)


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## revolutionrocknroll

I'm from Vermont, so there's a lot of local and organic food, but I understand what you mean. I'd love to go to Europe some day. I've mainly been stuck in North America. My family's getting an exchange student from Europe though, so that will be fun.
Okay... now back to pit bulls.


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## Sena Hansler

I have a bad memory from my child hood... Chetwynd BC, people put out poisons to get rid of cats, and even dogs... No one stopped to help the dog crying out in pain on the highway, and no one cared for the numerous dead, rotting carcasses of cats who'd eaten poisoned food. There's so many people out there that are just...cruel. And many more who do not speak up.


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## dramaqueen

Olympia said:


> Yupp! I have plans on moving back to Europe also. Aiming for Norway, but anywhere could work. I hate this side of the world lol. Just the food.. In Europe it tastes so much better! Not half as many preservatives.
> Personally I believe not too much will change for the animals in these places until the people can take care of themselves better. I think once the boy from my village who's 17 with down syndrome gets proper care, instead of sitting outside drinking vodka and smoking all day, then it'd be more appropriate to worry about drowning puppies. (true story, no one cares about him)


 
Yes, the food IS much better in Europe, especially the pastries and bread.


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## Leeniex

dramaqueen said:


> Yes, the food IS much better in Europe, especially the pastries and bread.



Don't forget chocolate.:-D



Just last night an 88 year old woman in the next town over was mauled by two pits in her driveway. These animals are dangerous and the idiots who own them and don't know a damn thing about dogs are the ones who should be put down.


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## ANHEL123

Sena Hansler said:


> I have a bad memory from my child hood... Chetwynd BC, people put out poisons to get rid of cats, and even dogs... No one stopped to help the dog crying out in pain on the highway, and no one cared for the numerous dead, rotting carcasses of cats who'd eaten poisoned food. There's so many people out there that are just...cruel. And many more who do not speak up.


 

I think i remember it too. I love all animals so much. I have broken heart every day for all those animals who is abused. Still even now a lot of people careless. I wish people care and understand that those animals need our help. I live in philadelphia and we have so many pit bulls here. People breeding pit bulls for dog fighting. It is illegal but very popular in philadelphia. We have so many kill shelters where they euthanized dogs especially pit-bull every day. So sad. My dog pit bull mixed. She is very dog and people friendly. Anywhere you go she loves everyone. She is rescue dog and shelter was ready to euthanize her if we would not rescue her. It very sad situation with dogs. I am really against of any dog breeding. A lot of times the dogs from the breeders end up in the shelters.


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## kfryman

You are totally right, too many dogs are bred and they can't find them homes so they dump them at the pound or kill them sadly enough. Breeding needs to be regulated, so the puppy mills and everything don't keep mass producing dogs.

Pits are obedient if you train them properly. You also must socialize them like every dog so they don't end up being dog aggressive.


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## Sena Hansler

How's this. When I am ready for a dog I'll come to Philadelphia :3 :lol:

If my friend and I do end up doing a pet store (based on rescue and adoption, no mills  ) in the next 5 or so years, I'd probably be getting dogs in from different places - not just local


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## Laki

Have to keep in mind the policies on moving dogs around like that and what's really beneficial to them. I mean a cross a state might be okay but I know the states are huge! They do plenty of shipping for people who want to rescue beagles from our Beagle Paws org, all across Canada! And they rescue husky type Labrador mutts used for goodness knows what down to Newfoundland and across the border into Quebec. 
Yes, it can be done, and especially if shipping them out improves their chances of getting a home. Like greyhounds! Nobody breeds them unless for the show ring or super pretentious ignoramus' who are too good to adopt a retired racer. I'm sure there are not that many homes left in the racing states for adopted greys, so they retire them across borders. 
Still, I think there's many hoops to jump through in order to do something of that league of rescue.  I think it would be cool to have a mom and pop pet store!


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## tpocicat

All the pet stores in Fresno and Clovis, to the best of my knowledge only adopt dogs and cats from rescues. I love the practice. All but 1 of my 4 dogs is a rescue, and all 6 my cats are.


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## Sena Hansler

eh I'd end up travelling for a dog of my own anyways :3 but we'd get dogs from countries here in canada mostly lol.


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## ANHEL123

Sena Hansler said:


> How's this. When I am ready for a dog I'll come to Philadelphia :3 :lol:
> 
> If my friend and I do end up doing a pet store (based on rescue and adoption, no mills  ) in the next 5 or so years, I'd probably be getting dogs in from different places - not just local


 When i look for a dog i had a little bit a problems. A few places refused to me because i never had the same breed, other refused because i don't have a yard. Well about yard they may be right. The dog that i have now i take to the park, i ran and walk with her for more than hour. She love to run ...so if it would be older person may be it is a problem if you don't have a yard. But i was so upset that i was refused so many times. I went through the hell, because the longer i was looking for more sad information i found out about dog situation, all those sad storied.

But now i know a few shelters where i really know that i can trust. My dog is healthy so far for 8 month. No problem. They drove the dog to me for 6 hrs. Another shelter is kill shelter and people there really care about dogs i trust them too. One shelter in PA another i don't remember. I have written down everything at home.

So if anyone ever need any info i can help.

Also when we adopted 2.5 years old dog everyone were saying that i will have a problem. My dog was found on the street. And they told me she is extremely aggressive to other dogs. And i have problem to housebreak her. But guess what we did it. She is housebroken and very lovely. Love all dogs, all people. She is very enjoyable dog. So never listen other people. It was little bit difficult to housebreak her. It took us 10 days and she is perfect.

So guys if you need advice on that i can help lol


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## Sena Hansler

awesome =D If people have patience, they overcome problems. If they're blind by popular belief...well they never quite learn.


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## ANHEL123

I think no one should ever give up on anything that you really want. It always some kind of sabbaticals you will go through.. And you know you will feel better about yourself and then you also can help other people with advice lol


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## Laki

I can understand the yard bit but as you said, you're pretty dedicated to walking and exercising your dog- it's a shame they can't take your word on that. I was the same, when we moved from a house with a yard to an apartment without a yard I had no choice but to walk my unfixed male dog 4-5 times a DAY. That's including field runs and playing. Moved again to a house with a yard and STILL walked my dog 3-4 times a day because it's more stimulating for him and was an excuse for exercise for me and to get out of the house!! lol Moved finally to another house with a yard but took him for walks still. I don't know why people like us (who walk our dogs) would be refused a dog bc of the yard issue. Crazy!! I would have defended that. The apartment I'm in now doesn't have a yard but I also dont think I'll get another dog until I'm done school anyway. 
We had a pet store franchise who sold mill puppies before. They stopped franchise-wide (thank goodness) but don't reccommedn the shelters  They sell baby animals barely weaned (rabbits) and the rabbit rescue ends up with them all basically. And they still sell "pure breed" cats which look like my mutt DSH cat -_-''

I'm rambling. SORRY!!


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## Sena Hansler

Yeah there was no way these "purebred chihuahua pomeranians" were even part pomeranian. Or full chihuahua. One was a terrier cross and the other a toy chihuahua gal. :/


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## Laki

lol let alone there being such thing as a purebred Chihuahua pomeraian!!! Those are separate breeds!! Oh my. The things people profit on.
Off topic, a "breeder" no word on reputable/registered or byb had his house catch fire while he was not a home and 13 of his 15 dogs perished. 2 are MIA. And 3 of the deceased were puppies. All small breed. Such a sad sad tale


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## Sena Hansler

awwww 

Yeah I was looking for a skinny pig. "reputable breeder" selling 3 week old skinnys. I inquired, and persisted, (and they were free? hmmm..) then a reply: "oh, they all died." :| What REAL breeder sends out sick animals?  I even made sure my "surprise" baby guinea Honey gave, was healthy before he found a loving home :/

Breeders can be unreliable. And/or fake. :-(


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## Laki

And/or stupid! The lady who bred my old mini rex rabbit Akina sold her and ALL her other animals to anyone who wanted them at a low price when she moved out of province. My cousin should not have been able to have the poor thing because she was unable to care for it, hence, it ended up in my home. But because she wanted to move out of the province my cousin got Akina on a great deal (20$ with no follow up on the "contract") ... Some people.


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## Sena Hansler

yikes. 


And this, dear children, is why people can own pitbulls. and make a bad name for the breed. :lol:


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## SnowySurface

Sena Hansler said:


> yikes.
> 
> 
> And this, dear children, is why people can own pitbulls. and make a bad name for the breed. :lol:


After reading this whole thread from beginning to end I'm extremely impressed you were able to bring it back on topic with a single sentence. :lol:

Unfortunately, I'm so late to the party that most of my view points have already been expressed, attacked, and defended in various ways. 

But I will add that I don't think Pit Bulls should go to first time dog owners. I know everyone has to do something for the first time. However, I think having a pit bull as a starter dog is like have a sorority as a beginner fish keeper. It isn't going to end well if you don't have the experience necessary to fix problems before they happen, see warning signs of a problem in the making, or handle emergencies because problems always happen no matter how prepared you think you are. :-? 

If someone doesn't have experience with dogs, a pit can be the equavilent of biting off more than he/she can chew. And when that happens, it's the breed that gets the bad rep. -_-


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## MinaMinaMina

Honestly, I haven't read through all the responses. But I just had to put my two cents in here.

I've worked in vet care for 14 years, and 7.5 of those years has been working in busy veterinary ERs. I've seen thousands (literally) dog attack cases and dealt with thousands (literally) pit bulls and pit bull mixes. When I quite literally put my body on the line every time I go to work, I take the issue of dog aggressiveness very personally. Here are my opinions from my experience.

And please note! Pits are certainly not the only breed that has problems! There are a few breeds that are on my "list" with Pit Bulls, but Pits always top the list for a number of reasons.

Pits have, very literally, been bred to attack and kill beings that are their own size or smaller. Its in their genes, and that can't be changed. It can be controlled and mitigated, but it is always there.

Pit bulls are unique from other dogs in their behavior. Because of their unique breeding, I believe they attack/fight/bite in a different way than other breeds. In my experience, a Pit Bull bite does more damage than a bite from another breed. Their jaws are very powerful, but I believe this excessive damage is because of the _way_ Pit Bulls bite and the intention behind the bite. They've been bred to bite! Pit Bulls don't seem to give a warning bite and back off, they go all out. I don't think I've ever seen a victim animal come in with just a single Pit Bull bite. The victims of Pit Bulls are usually mauled, with many bite wounds and sometimes even shaken.

The most heinous attacks I've treated are usually from pit bulls. (And that doesn't even count all the victims that didn't survive long enough to be treated.)

Of the times I've seen animal attacks by dogs seemingly unprovoked, mostly a Pit is the culprit.

I've never heard of another breed that will "sport" attack animals, meaning they seem to attack for the fun of it. An example would be a client of ours (who was usually exceptionally careful!) who lived next to a pit that busted through the adjoining fence to grab the client's dog from their yard, then drug the dog back into its own yard, and proceeding to _literally_ tear it to pieces. (We provided body care services.) And it wasn't the first time that dog had killed another dog. Or a client whose cat was attacked by a Pit that got loose and attacked/killed multiple cats in the neighbor that night. These are not examples of a typical "dog fight" or "dog attack". These are examples of dogs that are looking for a fight, looking for a kill, and have done it repeatedly. I'd call that the very definition of "serial killer".
(I'm not saying all Pits are serial killers. But I am saying that I've not heard of any other breed acting this way, and I believe that all Pits are _capable_ of behaving this way.)

True, Pits are not usually aggressive to adult humans. They're bred to be nice to adults. Its pretty rare that any of us at work see Pits that are outright aggressive to adults, though it does occasionally happen. (Almost all the bites we vet workers sustain from ANY animal are to our hands and arms. This is the animals' way of getting us to stop what we're doing to them because the things we do to them are done with our hands and arms. So a bite anywhere else is a significant indicator or the animals' temperament. One of my coworkers was bitten in the face by a Pit before she had even _touched _it, much less done anything to it yet! This is the only face bite I know of, or have even heard of, in all my years. This says something.) Though they not often overtly aggressive to adult humans, Pits can very well be aggressive to any small being, regardless of the species- dog, cat, small mammal or human child. They're bred to fight beings of this size! But most of the problems we, as vet workers, have with pits come from fear aggression. Most pits we see are somewhere between scared and terrified. And if they lash out at us, its usually because of their fear. 

And trust me, a Pit that weighs HALF as much as I do is much stronger than me any day. We really have to use our brains to restrain Pits, or we'd lose every time the dog didn't want to cooperate. This strength in combination with other traits just makes Pits even more dangerous.

Pits, like some other breeds, have temperament problems. They do have unique temperament problems. This has a host of reasons and combinations of reasons, anything from poor handling, to poor socialization, to situational triggers, to poor training, to bad breeding, to inherent breed traits, and more. Sure, they can be great pets when raised appropriately, any breed can. But some breeds are more likely to be dangerous, and when a Pit is dangerous it is more so than any other breed because of other factors listed above.

I don't think Pits are the only dog that should be restricted, just the most important one to be restricted. Even if you're pro-Pitbull, think of breed restrictions as a way to help protect Pits, for the good of the animal. It helps to keep them out of the hands of people who can't properly raise them, and therefore helps to limit the number of Pits who are capable of attacking our pets and children, and therefore limits both the number of Pits who are euthanized due to temperament problems and the bad reputation of the breed.

I leave you with a story...
My good friend Andy loved Pits. He used to breed and raise them as pets. He was a very responsible breeder and owner, and huge Pit Bull advocate. His girl was a 10y that he had bred and raised himself beside his young daughter. She was very well trained and socialized, and he used to take her out as a "goodwill breed ambassador".
One day he was sitting on the porch with his daughter and the dog. A man and his grandson were walking their stinky dog. She took one look, raced off the porch (breaking her "stay" command for the first time in her life) and proceed to attack and kill the dog in front of Andy's daughter and the poor boy. I'm sure it was very traumatic for them. Even after the dog was dead, they only way they got her off it was to stick a hose in the corner of her mouth and drown her to make her let go so she could breath.
When he realized that, despite all the good breeding and good training in the world, his dog had turned out to be a killer... Andy quit breeding and advocating. He now thinks that Pits are timebombs waiting for triggers. Though some dogs never meet their trigger and therefore die a good dog, many meet their trigger and explode. Though he still loves Pits dearly, he is now 100% pro-breed restriction.
Something to think about.


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## Sena Hansler

^+1

People have got to realize, that pits - like many other large breeds, need 2 main things: 1. a job and 2. training. Not "throw the dog a bone and leave in chained in my yard" treatment, no, actual training with commitment, patience, time and willingness to learn and teach. In breeding alone, making sure the lines of each parent are all good tempered (certified, even better!) before breeding can lower aggression, however you are right, their instincts are not to "chase" or to "hunt" it's to "kill". Which is why the myth of their "locking jaws" comes into place, because unlike dogs that lash out, bite, stop, bite, stop, P[its have a tendency to refuse to let go! And will shake their victim too. I've seen a puppy pitbull (5 months?) DRAG his owner (who shouldnt own pits!) down the street because he wanted to say hi to another dog :lol: They are less than half most people's size, and they are stronger! xD


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## MinaMinaMina

Actually, there is something else I want to add to my post. I think this really underlines my point.

I believe German Shepherd Dogs should be restricted. I say this because we see waaaaay too many timebomb GSDs. It is really an exceptional rarity that we see a well-behaved, good tempered Shepherd. I think the majority of the problems with GSD temperaments is due to one or both of two causes- bad breeding (Thank you, backyard breeders, for ruining a once majestic breed in both temperament and conformation!) and poor training/handling. 

HOWEVER!
I *love* *Love LOVE *GSDs with all my heart! They are my most favoritest, bestest breed ever! I've had two GSDs and a GSD mix, and I can't imagine ever wanting another kind of dog. Seriously, I can't express how head over heels I am for GSDs!

And I still think they should be restricted.


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## Sena Hansler

well, that one lady who claimed the service trained her bad-pick of a shepherd, was lying and really trained him herself. He is permanently banned for biting a cashier, and the woman yelling that he was "trained to do that".

response to that ol' woman: No, lady, you're an idiot, you shouldn't train dogs, you shouldn't own a dog, that dog has to be euthanised because you can SEE in his eyes and posture alone, he is too far gone and next time it WILL be a child, and they WILL sue. :|


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## FishyFishy89

Insane in the membrane people
They refuse to see what is infront of them.


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## Sena Hansler

yep. and it takes a few to forcibly show them, and even then it can be impossible :/


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## freakumDRESS

I've met a very mean Dalmation when I was around 12-13.
The darn dog chased me two blocks down on the way to the bus stop before my mom had to fend it off with the end of an umbrella.

I've had German Shepards lunge at me while they were on leash.
Poodles did the same (especially standard).
I've had the most bad experiences with "lap dogs".
Ugh, especially those darn lap dogs...
I've recently met a few mentally insane pitbulls in my neighborhood.

Come to think of it, i'm not a dog person at all.
I doubt i'd ever get one.

I've met nice pitbulls (my dad owned a few) and a nice small breed (rat terrier and italian greyhounds), but overall, i'll pass at dog ownership. No thanks.


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## LionCalie

MinaMinaMina said:


> I don't think Pits are the only dog that should be restricted, just the most important one to be restricted.* Even if you're pro-Pitbull, think of breed restrictions as a way to help protect Pits, for the good of the animal. It helps to keep them out of the hands of people who can't properly raise them*, and therefore helps to limit the number of Pits who are capable of attacking our pets and children, and therefore limits both the number of Pits who are euthanized due to temperament problems and the bad reputation of the breed.


That is the problem though... the bad people owning pit bulls don't follow "laws and restrictions". They will continue to own them, fight them, and breed them. The restrictions mostly impact the good pit bull owners. :-(


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## Olympia

But with restriction, when these people get caught we can put more fines and jail time on them for breaking the law.


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> But with restriction, when these people get caught we can put more fines and jail time on them for breaking the law.


As soon as they get out of jail they will still break the law.
Some criminals are just a broken record.


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## Olympia

I think animal cruelty charges can go up to $5000 alone. More if the animal is illegal. I don't know who would want to try again after losing that much money O_O Unless it was some big time fighting guy, but I'm sure the police would monitor that, but he'd get even more charges for illegal gambling.


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## fleetfish

The only "pitbull" I ever knew and loved was a happy, beautiful white and black girl named Sara who liked to lay down at one end of the couch and clear the whole area with her farts. That was the only aggression she ever showed, lol


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## LionCalie

A lot of times these bad people are involved with gangs, sell drugs and guns, or make a lot of money breeding pit bulls that win in the fighting ring. They probably drop $5k just on gambling during dog fights. Not to mention how overcrowded our prisons are and the budget cuts. 

The good thing about restrictions is it does punish those bad guys, even though they will likely continue the actions that got them in trouble in the first place. The bad part is it greatly impacts the good guys who can provided a wonderful and responsible home to a pit bull but they aren't allowed to because it is against the law.


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## Sena Hansler

I think it should be 5k MINIMUM. and bring it up the more the crimes of pitbull fighting continues. personally. Stops people from entering, if they are just the average guy "looking for fun". Plus 4 or more years prison time minimum.


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## Olympia

And if there's no guys looking for some fun, there is no money to be made 
Plus this kind of stuff often accompanies illegal drug usage and such, which is why it should be an even bigger priority.


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## Sena Hansler

I would make many people mad, if I were given the chance to control the amount and time for crimes like these xD "Again? Another dog fighting pit? Okay, 10'000 then. 20'000 second offence. 80'000 third offense! nd 5 years minimum. Second time? 20 years!" :lol: I'd be really cold on that. truthfully.


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## Fieldz

I think these dogs are cool and all, but I will never have one. Why? Because, as stated many times befoe, pitbulls are strong and you cant control them when they want to do something.


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## Sena Hansler

Definitely not a first time owner's dog ;-) I've trained dogs and with dogs since I was 11, but even then I know pits ae soooo strong..


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## LionCalie

I work with horses, so I'm used to strong animals that can be super hard to control if they don't want to do something. :lol:


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## Sheldon31

Pit bulls are on the dangerous dog act here in the UK. It means that you are banned from owning or breeding pitbulls and anyone who has one must have it neutered but no one should legally own one since all the pit bulls born before the act was passed should have passed by now. I don't beleive in dangerous dogs, only dangerous owners. We have the problem with Staffordshire bull terriers where people all assume they are vicious killer dogs that eat children for breakfast when they were originally called "nanny dogs". Peevs me right off! When I had my St Bernard people assumed he was like Cujo!


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## FishyFishy89

Sheldon31 said:


> but no one should legally own one since all the pit bulls born before the act was passed should have passed by now.


What do you mean by passed? Did they put the dogs down?


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## Olympia

I think they mean the act was passed so many years ago, around 10 or something, that all dogs born before then would have naturally passed away.


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## Aus

Just wanted to say thanks to MinaMinaMina for her post, and for putting forward a realistic POV on these dogs.

As for horses being equally dangerous - sure. I've owned a couple of real sods who I'd never let a child close to, let alone allow them to ride. Solution? Don't let kids near the horse, an easy thing to achieve, since horses don't generally live in back yards. As for general safety - I have never met a horse owner who swore black and blue that their darling frou-frou could not --possibly-- hurt someone. It's just how it is, you can't own an 800-pound animal and not be aware that they can, despite being nice animals, actually cause harm if mishandled (or they can, maybe, think that but lol.. it won't last long). Keep in mind too - a horse will never team up with another horse, smash through a suburban fence to rip your pet apart or eat your child's face off. I think comparisons like those are a bit silly, tbh.


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## freakumDRESS

Aus said:


> Keep in mind too - a horse will never team up with another horse, smash through a suburban fence to rip your pet apart or eat your child's face off. I think comparisons like those are a bit silly, tbh.


You're describing Cujo or Terminator. They would love to go on a rampage, bursting through fences/buildings and seeking children to devour or shoot.

Dogs do not have the intelligence to go on a revengeful killing spree.
Dogs don't have a sense of self, either.
I always thought such animals acted upon cues.
When a dog feels threatened by a certain person or thing, the dog would either react by biting or fleeing. Most likely, I believe a threatened dog would bite.


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## Sena Hansler

Some dogs however, are stuck on the instinctual and hunt mode. Boredom, can cause it, or an unseen trigger - similar to a cue, just they can go unnoticed! Which is why sometimes, the fight or flight system is out of order... some dogs...don't fight or flight...they hunt and kill...


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## Aus

freakumDRESS said:


> You're describing Cujo or Terminator. They would love to go on a rampage, bursting through fences/buildings and seeking children to devour or shoot.
> 
> Dogs do not have the intelligence to go on a revengeful killing spree.
> Dogs don't have a sense of self, either.
> I always thought such animals acted upon cues.
> When a dog feels threatened by a certain person or thing, the dog would either react by biting or fleeing. Most likely, I believe a threatened dog would bite.


Uh.. no. 

I'm describing the two pit bulls who smashed through a neighbour's fence and tore their little lap dog apart, alive, actually. In front of me. In fact, had they chosen the opposite side of the street to roam on that day, they may have eaten my toddler instead.

There was nothing 'revengeful' about it. Those dogs wanted to kill something and went to a great deal of effort to do so.

I'm sure they were somebody's darling puppy wuppies, however, and deserve our love and understanding. You know.. as opposed to being put down for the sake of public safety.


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## Laki

Size comparison is out the window! Newfoundland dogs. Double the size of the pitbull, could only hurt you with happiness. It's genetics. Not size.


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## Sena Hansler

Chihuahuas are the most common biters around here. But, why report it right? it's "just a small dog" x.x "less harm than a big dog".


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## LionCalie

Aus said:


> Uh.. no.
> 
> I'm sure they were somebody's darling puppy wuppies, however, and deserve our love and understanding. You know.. as opposed to being put down for the sake of public safety.


Wow, this post is dripping with unnecessary sarcasm.


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## TuiAndLa

*WOW!*

Well, I've been watching this thread for a while and while I haven't read all of the posts (not even close), I can see there are many different opinions on this matter.

Let me start by saying I am very dog savvy. I am a dog person first (far before I recently got into bettas). I have spent the last 7-8 years researching dogs, everything about them. Learning, applying what I've learned, learning some more, and still learning. I will always be learning. I have 3 dogs of my own, one being a pit mix, two shelter fosters, and a pit I rescued off the street, trying to re-home (who btw, is THE MOST submissive dog I've ever come across). But I have learned much in all these years and I can say exactly what the problem is about the "pit bull" issue.

Ah, where to start? ...Pits are not bad dogs. There are no bad dogs, only what people make them. BAD people got their grubby, money hungry, blood lusting hands on these beautiful animals and fought them and bred them. There are *SO* many pits out there due to overbreeding (and bad breeding)- THAT is why you see more "pit bull attacks -blank-". There are so many irresponsible people who keep these dogs as a status symbol or to make a quick buck, of course there will be more incidents with that "breed" (I quote b/c I know the generic "pit bull" term means all bully breeds) more than others, b/c they're prone to being mistreated and there are just MORE of them than (I would venture to say) any other breed. And of course the media who loves to get their hands on "pit bull" attack stories yet leaves other dog (breed) attack stories in the dust.

With that said, I see one big thing about what people say which is that the owner swears up and down that their fluffy-foo foo would never hurt a fly. You know why these dogs end up hurting someone/some animal even though they're treated so well by their owners? It's because these are HIGH ENERGY dogs. They need EXERCISE, they need DISCIPLINE. Most people don't seem to give discipline to their dogs as they should. Proper discipline. And socialization.

What happens, sometimes, when the dog is lacking proper discipline and exercise is they get bored, they get neurotic, they do what they want and don't listen to their owners. Pile this on top of the fact that pit bulls can tend toward dog aggression (as they have been bred to fight other dogs and it's in their genes, though there are plenty of them out there who aren't dog aggressive), and you've got a disaster waiting to happen. Again, NOT the dog's fault. The HUMAN'S fault for A)Not socializing, B)Not providing exercise, C)Not providing proper discipline, or D)breeding them for unstable genes. If you get a pit bull, or any dog for that matter, and think that all they need is cuddles and love and good food and they'll be well behaved... you are sorely mistaken. Just ask my neighbor.

I remember a day when my friend and I were chatting with my neighbor and we talk about disciplining dogs and exercising them (as we were often out doing with our own) and got on the pit bull subject. He says to us, "Naaaah, pits don't need that (discipline). You just show 'em love and treat 'em right and that's all they need." ...Yea. Well he got a pit bull puppy, 8 weeks old. This dog is an adult now, about 2 years. This dog had TONS of energy, a rambunctious load of puppy whirlwind. Did they ever exercise him? No. Did they ever discipline him properly? Highly doubt it. Did they give him rules and boundaries? No.

What does this dog decide to do with all it's pent up energy and lack of direction? Attacked their toy poodle several times (thankfully not ending in death), bit the owner's wife, bit the owner's mom, causing her to fall and hurt herself further. They just had a new baby and were worried so the dog lives outside now. This dog also ran after and bit a girl on this street who lives a couple houses down.

So... what did his "love" and "treating him right" do? It created a dog who would not follow rules, was probably neurotic from lack of exercise, and never got out for socialization. "But we treated him so well!" But they didn't give him what he NEEDED. A lot of people don't give their dogs the basics (exercise, discipline, rules/boundaries, socialization). And THAT, my friends, is how these dog attacks happen.

And most people don't know dog body language either. They don't see the subtle signs that their dog shows, for example, to their child when the child bugs them. Until the child bugs them for the 1000th time and the dog sees that none of his subtle signals of "leave me alone" are working and snaps. And then cue line- "He would never hurt a fly! He's never done anything like that, blah, blah, blah...". Oblivious to the subtle signals the dog was giving ahead of time and who pays for the human's mistake? The dog. This happens in many situations.

Let me also say that animal aggression and human aggression are two VERY different things. Just because a dog has high prey drive and will kill another animal, does NOT automatically mean that it will attack/kill humans too and vice versa. I'm sorry, but I frankly get very sick of hearing "that pit bull attacked and killed that dog, it could have been a child!"

Aus- You said these two dogs were roaming. What does that tell you? It's clear that if the owners let them roam about, they aren't what I would call "good owners". It's interesting that it was a dachshund who met this unfortunate fate (and I am truly sorry that happened. I know what it's like to see a traumatizing scene as such). But on a dog forum I have been a member of for several years, someone recently posted how furious they were because 5 DACHSHUNDS got loose (for the "nth" time) and mauled, SHREDDED their cat alive. Surrounded the cat, trapped in his igloo house and mauled him to pieces, literally, and his owners got to clean up the aftermath. Now.... is this the dogs' fault? NO. It's the owners fault for letting them get loose continuously.

So... "vicious pit bulls"? The result of humans breeding them irresponsibly or raising them irresponsibly. Period. That does not mean however, that all pit bulls should be banned/destroyed. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. How about we destroy the people who make them that way? Ha, now that sounds more reasonable imo.

Joking aside, as has been said again and again, ANY dog can kill, ANY animal can kill. Humans have already done this breed a huge injustice by making them fight and being irresponsible with them. Let's not continue to show our cruelty towards them by destroying them for something that is NOT their fault. Humans should fix the problem they created and that doesn't mean banning this lovely breed. It means STOP BEING IRRESPONSIBLE! A nice dream anyhow, as people will continue to do what they want and not give a flip about what kind of damage they're doing. As long as they get their money or get their blood lust fix.

I recall a story of a pomeranian who killed a baby. A story of a husky who recently killed a baby. I could go on and on. But I wont play the breed blaming game.

I will say that I have a pit mix named Imani. 30 lbs of solid muscle and solid character. She acts more like a purebred APBT in her personality (meaning, what a true APBT's character should be). She will do anything for me (will run herself into the ground if I ask it), she lives to please, LOOOVES children. The second she sees a child, she gets all wiggly and wants to play (b/c the neighborhood children would play with her in the street before I took her (owner didn't want her and threw her out like trash)).

I originally took her in to find her a good home... but she found it with me! I couldn't bear to give her up after seeing what a completely awesome character she has. She is pretty much everything I ever wanted in a dog. She is friendly with people (she insisted on meeting every person who passed by at the pet store and would have gone home with them if I allowed! lol) and friendly with other dogs. She has actually taught many of my fosters to play, who were only scared of everything at first. She softly pawed them and laid on her back and did everything to get them to engage in play, and they would finally open up and play with her. Loyal as they come, she would defend me, but ONLY if absolutely necessary.

My mostly pit dog I also took off the streets is so submissive, if you so much as look at him the wrong way, his ears go down and he has a look on his face as if you just slapped him. lol But friendly as can be of course, just submissive as I've ever seen a dog.

I suppose there is no changing someone's mind if they wish to stick to their opinion only and keep a closed mind (not aiming at you, Aus, I mean anyone). I've said everything that I think about this topic and I thank those who are all for this amazing breed. And for those who think otherwise, I am sorry if you have experienced traumatizing events in which a pit bull committed some unfortunate act, but do not let your experience or your grief cloud your judgment.

Edited to add- I used to volunteer at my local high kill animal shelter, before I started fostering for them. I was there many times and every time, without fail, it would be packed with pit bulls. Way overbred. And each time I was there, and walked passed the kennels, meeting each dog and wishing I could save them all, the pit bulls were the FRIENDLIEST ones. There were many other mixed breeds and terriers and labs and every mix under the sun who barked and growled and acted crazy. The pit bulls? They would come to the fence, wiggling, and happy as they could possibly be, wanting nothing but a good pet, leaning into the chainlink in hopes of getting a nice ear scratch. Were there unfriendly ones? Of course, but that PALED in comparison to the friendly ones. And there were far more barky/growly/unsure/untrustful mixed breeds (not pit mixes). Breed has nothing to do with a dog's friendliness. Period.


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## Sena Hansler

the thing is, pits were made to please. They WANT to please you =D So they see you, they wanna say hi...and wanna please you


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## TuiAndLa

Sena Hansler said:


> the thing is, pits were made to please. They WANT to please you =D So they see you, they wanna say hi...and wanna please you


Exactly. :3 They were made to be human friendly. Any who aren't were either bred badly, or raised badly. I had a neighbor who bred pit bulls, typical backyard breeder. :roll: There was one female that their son told me HIMSELF, that his mom/dad purposely made her mean toward people. So guess what? The dog got loose, bit someone, quarantined. Got loose again shortly after, bit someone else, put down. Good job, irresponsible people.


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## LionCalie

TuiAndLa....

Awesome post!!! :notworthy:


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## Aus

On the contrary, I find the sarcasm entirely necessary.

My point was to refute the idea that these dogs cannot wilfully attack another animal or bust a fence down. I saw that - unfortunately - with my own eyes. And yes, they were pit bulls. Now, a couple of roaming, vicious chihuahuas MIGHT not have caused that much damage, I think.

And I totally get how anyone without kids MIGHT not get that this happening a few yards from a toddler who was with a dog behind the same type of fence could leave a person feeling a tad disinclined to be a fan of the breed.

I just get a bit frustrated with the 'foo-foo' brigade, who have a kind of reverse prejudice, where anyone pointing out the reality of pit bulls is clearly seen as an idiot. 

This whole thread was about pit bulls being 'hated' without reason. I don't "hate" these dogs - I have met some lovely ones. I have owned other molosser breeds. What I do disagree with is people who cannot comprehend the damage these dogs were --bred-- to do owning them and not taking the potential for harm seriously. That's every bit as likely to lead to a mauling (and often does) as neglectful ownership. 

And the fate of those vicious dogs? The owner was ordered to contain them according to 'dangerous dog' laws. What did he do? Let them roam again, causing a whole neighborhood to feel afraid for their pets and kids for months. 

Not the dog's fault. This I can totally agree with. Not their fault they were bred to want to attack smaller creatures and then put in the hands of a moron who thought they were harmless darlings.

While idiots are legally permitted to purchase/own/breed pit bulls, rottweilers, any large dogs at all in areas where families live, and while pit bulls bred specifically for aggression are still on the market (I believe some breeders are combating this with smart breeding and hooray for them) - I have to fully support any law that restricts access to them. 

That could have been my kid. Thank god alone it wasn't.


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## Laki

After 37 pages I think everyone has had their say.


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## Sena Hansler

agreed.


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## TuiAndLa

LionCalie said:


> TuiAndLa....
> 
> Awesome post!!! :notworthy:


Thank you :3


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## MinaMinaMina

Nope, sorry. Gotta say one more thing. :-D

If anyone thinks that proper handling (and I do agree on what proper handling is) will always produce a good Pit, think again. A wonderful example is the previously relayed story of my friend Andy and his pit, Dusty. He bred her himself, raised her himself, trained her properly, exercised her properly, socialized her properly, even got her CGC'ed... and she still killed. A pit bull cannot go beyond its genes, its just a matter of if any particular dog meets its particular, individual threshold/trigger.

There are many other breeds that have temperament problems, but Pits have unique qualities that make them more dangerous than other dogs- genetics to fight and kill beings their size or smaller, energy level, powerful jaws, and unique biting and fighting style, more relative muscle mass/strength, popularity, poor breeding, and in many cases submissiveness/fear aggression (to name a few). At work, I would personally rather deal with an 80 pound aggressive Dalmation than a 40 pound aggressive Pit any day!

I write this coming off a very busy ER shift where I dealt with two Pits- one that was a submissive, cowering fear biter (that almost got me) and one that was 80 pounds of sheer muscle and aggression. True, I don't see many Pits that are out right aggressive to adult humans (mostly I see only fear aggression toward adults). But I could go on and on about how bad that latter one was... but let me summarize by saying that it took three people to even do an exam on him, and he went after me for merely _pointing_ at his foot with a broken toe nail. The only reason my hand is still intact is because he was being restrained by two people and had a muzzle on. We couldn't even get _near_ his (minor) injuries without chemical restraint. He was that bad.

Its quite a unique experience having your face 6" away from a growling, snarling 80 pound TANK of a Pit Bull, even if he's muzzled and being restrained by three people.


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## TuiAndLa

@Minaminamina- Well... that is quite unfortunate what happened with your friend's dog. But did he know the dog was triggered by other dogs? I mean, I find it hard to believe that in 10 years, the dog never showed a single sign of wanting to go after another dog and then just suddenly does it? Also, was this dog raised and/or socialized with smaller dogs? (which I'm not saying will wipe out any tendency to want to go into fight/kill mode but it would be less surprising if the dog hadn't been raised/socialized with smaller dogs).

I agree though, of course genes have a big play on things. I mentioned that in my first post. They're bred to want to go after small animals/other dogs and they will (though some are fine and don't have that drive). But restricting them, as LionCalie mentioned before, will only hurt the good people. The bad ones will only continue to break the law and breed them badly.

That story about the two pits (aggressive and fear aggressive).... Well.... clearly they weren't raised/bred right! lol That says nothing of a true pit's character. They were bred to be able to be handled without aggression, despite horrendous injuries due to fighting. People have seriously screwed this breed up. A rotti is just as strong (actually bite power-wise, rotties and GSDs have a stronger bite before pits). Pitties have the tendency to hang on of course and not give up or die trying, that's the main thing. But still....

Heck, I couldn't hold back my 30lb chow mix foster when he attacked and killed a 7 week old puppy (of my neighbor's) b/c it got into our fence and squealed (did the neighbors even care? no... more irresponsible people). He had the highest blood lusting prey drive and energy I've ever seen (which I hadn't known before this incident). People, he was fine with, but small animals.... o_0.

I think the animal aggression should be bred out of pits, personally. There's no need for it in this society, it only causes dangerous situations. But then people will argue that if they're bred not to fight, then it's no longer a pit bull b/c you can no longer "test" them for that tenaciousness and know that they will give it their all or die trying. But that's a whole different can of worms. Then there's the AmStaff who is pretty much a pit, though bulkier/squarer that already doesn't have the drive and animal aggression of the APBT.

I dunno, I think pits should be bred and tested in other sports (there are so many of them and they'd be GOOD at any sport). Why do we need a dog who loves to kill animals? But alas, people will continue to be people.


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## Sena Hansler

Good luck breeding it out of something that has been bred for hundreds of years as a pure muscle fighter. Bulldogs, too. Beagles are bred to hunt and cue you to a prey, wolfhounds protected large farms, Mastiffs pulled carts, and the pit was a hunter as well. :/ If we bred these dogs "out" of their instincts we bred into them, we would end up breeding size down, or breeding mutts, and lose the entire breed.


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## TuiAndLa

As for size, pit bulls are NOT supposed to be 80 lbs. They were originally 25-45 lbs. 50lbs being on the large end. Secondly, breeding it out of them is entirely possible. I mean, look at all the pits that aren't dog/small animal aggressive to begin with. Start from there, basically. 

Ever heard of the silver fox project? They took wild foxes and bred them to be tame and friendly with people, where at first, being wild, they were quite aggressive. Took only 3 generations to start seeing a difference. By 8 generations, they were becoming quite friendly and wagging their tails when people approached. After just 50 generations, they are completely tame and would make great house pets (act much like dogs, wagging tails, LOVE people, friendly as can be). If you can breed it into them, you can breed it out.

ETA- A pit bull can be just as friendly, just as never-give-up without being animal aggressive. There are many out there already.


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## Sena Hansler

Again, good luck breeding it out of them. Unless there is a permanent law WORLD WIDE saying "no pit breeding" and there are police walking around everywhere and barging into homes to make sure no one breeds the dogs... :/ it wouldnt be the dog's aggression itself I'd be worried about. it'd be about stupid people.

I personally would only get a fixed dog/pup. from the spca. =D


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## TuiAndLa

Haha, well of course! I said I think it should be bred out of them. I have no expectation of it ever happening however. xD As I've said again, people will be people and will continue to do what they want so yea, it's not gonna happen. I just said it /should/ happen. lol

ETA- Def all for rescue. =) That's why I foster for my high kill shelter. Actually, one of my fosters is going in today in a couple of hours to meet a potential family. ^.^ Wish us luck! =P


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## Sena Hansler

It should. lol. I personally want a rotti... I love the breed and I am not scared of them xD and I've had my face inches from a scared rotti to a point I could count his teeth. His owners shouldn't even own dogs....neither dog gets walks. their chained up. with the chain as the collar. because people suck. :/


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## TuiAndLa

Indeed, people do suck. =/


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## Pogthefish

Wonderful writing, i completely agree! they are just bred to be violent, but it can be tarined out of them. hats off to you!


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## TuiAndLa

Pogthefish said:


> Wonderful writing, i completely agree! they are just bred to be violent, but it can be tarined out of them. hats off to you!


Thank you much! :3 (though I would say, it may not be possible to /train/ aggression out of a dog who is wired that way (or maybe so but not 100%, genes are a very powerful thing) but bred out, definitely.) And if raised properly, they should be well behaved, happy pets (except the rare dog who may just be "wired" wrong from the beginning which can happen with any breed.)


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## FishyFishy89

TuiAndLa said:


> Thank you much! :3 (though I would say, it may not be possible to /train/ aggression out of a dog who is wired that way (or maybe so but not 100%, genes are a very powerful thing) but bred out, definitely.) And if raised properly, they should be well behaved, happy pets (except the rare dog who may just be "wired" wrong from the beginning which can happen with any breed.)


Exactly. That is like trying to change your hair, eye, or skin color. The true colors will ALWAYS show. One way or another.


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## Sena Hansler

I kind of wish there were a way to stop bad people from breeding bad dogs. Like that "service dog" who btw I still think should've never made it to any inexperienced hands, and only into a professional who could deal with bad-genetics-aggressive kinda dogs :|


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## atomicjade

"Pit Bull" is no longer a relevance to a breed but is rather a type. Any dog that has a blocky head is considered a "pit bull" (especially in the media's eyes). I have a registered American Pit Bull Terrier and I can't tell you how many people think she is a mix, or a pup, because she does not have a massive head and weighs 45 pounds. Unfortunately the general public cannot even seem to recognize a real APBT and the "pit bull" is known for being 80+ lbs monsters with giant noggins, wide barrels, straight shoulders, and posty hinds... when in reality an APBT should be nothing of the sort. The sad reality is that all of these "attacks" by pit bulls are a combination of backyard breeding, irresponsible owners, and the population as a whole being generally ignorant to the point where they have no clue what they are even looking at.

If you choose to own this breed, dog aggression is just something you have to be informed about and be prepared to manage it. Socialization is the basis for any dogs upbringing, but no matter how much you do expose your APBT to other dogs it in no way guarantees safety. My dog is very well behaved with others but I always keep a close watch on her, because while I trust her not to start anything I do NOT trust other peoples dogs, and I do know that she would finish any sort of altercation. Unfortunately in any sort of issue with a APBT involved, they will undoubtedly receive the blame... whether its warranted, and in many cases, when its not. 

Having a APBT is different from any other breed of dog. It is not for everyone. Besides the dog aggression tendencies, APBT are extremely athletic and need an outlet. You will also find yourself many times on the defending end against the uninformed (and opinionated) types. That being said, I always have an APBT. I love all dogs, but this one is the one for me.


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## Inga

atomicjade said:


> "Pit Bull" is no longer a relevance to a breed but is rather a type. Any dog that has a blocky head is considered a "pit bull" (especially in the media's eyes). I have a registered American Pit Bull Terrier and I can't tell you how many people think she is a mix, or a pup, because she does not have a massive head and weighs 45 pounds. Unfortunately the general public cannot even seem to recognize a real APBT and the "pit bull" is known for being 80+ lbs monsters with giant noggins, wide barrels, straight shoulders, and posty hinds... when in reality an APBT should be nothing of the sort. The sad reality is that all of these "attacks" by pit bulls are a combination of backyard breeding, irresponsible owners, and the population as a whole being generally ignorant to the point where they have no clue what they are even looking at.
> 
> If you choose to own this breed, dog aggression is just something you have to be informed about and be prepared to manage it. Socialization is the basis for any dogs upbringing, but no matter how much you do expose your APBT to other dogs it in no way guarantees safety. My dog is very well behaved with others but I always keep a close watch on her, because while I trust her not to start anything I do NOT trust other peoples dogs, and I do know that she would finish any sort of altercation. Unfortunately in any sort of issue with a APBT involved, they will undoubtedly receive the blame... whether its warranted, and in many cases, when its not.
> 
> Having a APBT is different from any other breed of dog. It is not for everyone. Besides the dog aggression tendencies, APBT are extremely athletic and need an outlet. You will also find yourself many times on the defending end against the uninformed (and opinionated) types. That being said, I always have an APBT. I love all dogs, but this one is the one for me.


 
So very true. I think part of the problems with the public view of Pit Bulls is the PRO Pit Bull people (some not all) want to pose them as Teddy Bear dogs in all situations. It is like they are over compensating for negative press. Sadly, I think others then get the breed and either refuse to see the possibilities or don't realize that even a very well socialized Pit Bull can still have a tendancy toward dog aggression and that it can show up out of the blue. 

Also true the fact that MOST people wouldn't know a pure bred Pit Bull if it was standing next to them. The media makes them out to be tough as nails, stronger then any other dog almost super dogs in a bad way. People picture them as giants and they are actually a medium size dog, even on the smaller side of that. I have had people come and marvel at my Pit Bulls on many occasions and swear that they were Pit Bulls. I own Rottweilers, they look NOTHING like a Pit Bull but people see the big head and muscles and think it must be a Pit Bull. :-?

I am on a dog forum and this week there were 2 fatalities at dog parks. Each of them involved Huskies NOT Pit Bulls or Rottweilers. It is strange how the Media doesn't jump all over those. If those were Pits there would be many articles in the paper and much more hype about BSL again.


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## Laki

Huskies. They might be the next "target" for the media, I'm afraid. People get in way too deep with such a working breed, feed it once a day and stick it in the backyard. It will get frustrated!


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## tpocicat

I found this list on a site named "Dogs that could cause homeowners insurance rates to rise" they are:
Akita, Alaskan Malamute, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Pit Bull, Presa Canario, Rottweiler, Siberian Husky, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and Wolf Hybrid.


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## SnowySurface

Ok...I know this is a bit off topic but I have to ask. Why on earth would a Chow Chow raise your insurance rates?


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## Laki

Chow Chows are fighters/protectors. In the USA at least.


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## tpocicat

My daughter used to work at a vet's office, and she was the only one that wasn't afraid of one of the customer's Chows.


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## TuiAndLa

OMG, the subject of chows!!! -sPaZ- =D

Sorry... -composes self-.... ahem.

Yea, chows are my heart breed. So many people fear them or say they're mean. Sure, if they're raised badly or bred badly (same as pitties). But I looooooove chows. Their temperament/character matches mine and every one I've met has been a sweetheart. :3 I've particularly, at the moment, been half-obsessive with searching pics of chows. =P

Anyway, about the pitties. Yes, very true indeed, most people don't know wth a true APBT is anymore. Sad that people get their greedy hands on lovely breeds and screw them up as much as they can. I think this also happened to the chow chow before, which is why they get a bad rap too.


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## Bettas Rule

Not sure if anyone is interested but we are trying to get people to sign this petition to save this pit bulls life......
http://www.change.org/petitions/waynesboro-court-reverse-the-decision-on-peanut#


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## tpocicat

Bettas Rule said:


> Not sure if anyone is interested but we are trying to get people to sign this petition to save this pit bulls life......
> http://www.change.org/petitions/waynesboro-court-reverse-the-decision-on-peanut#


 Done! I love my pit bull and I wouldn't expect him not to go after a cat that wasn't ours.


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## kfryman

I was going to butbit didn't load 

I think people need to understand that some dogs including pits CAN be aggressive if it isn't socialized properly and not trained. I was bit by a German sheperd because he was not socialized properly. He broke skin and caused my leg to bruise like crazy.

Just be aware that dogs can tick and should be watched at all times.

I have two pit mixes at my house, one is dog aggressive with certain dogs fine with others.


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## ANHEL123

Just found this and it broke my heard. Couldn't post the picture

A heartbreaking photo of a male pit bull refusing to leave the side of a female pit bull that lay dead on the side of a Phoenix road is making the rounds on Facebook.
According to Fox's Phoenix affiliate, the female pit bull appeared to have been struck by a car on Friday. The male pit bull stayed by her side for more than 14 hours.
"The male pit bull wouldn't leave her, so a nearby business set out food and water," Fox 10 reported. "He stayed with her nuzzling her and lying nearby until the city came to remove her Saturday morning."
The dogs did not have owner tags when they were found.
"We picked up this other dog and took him to our East Valley shelter," Rodrigo Silva, an animal control official, told the station. "Right now it doesn't look like he has any behavioral or health problems."
Silva added that the dog is "a little withdrawn and appears to be very sad."
"If he continues to show these signs of withdrawal we will place him in a recovery home that can help him with his grieving," Silva told the Daily Mail.


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## ANHEL123

(

This is the picture


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## thekinetic

Pitbulls are really sweet dogs but it all goes back to my take on dogs. It's never the dog it's always the owner. Mean and nasty peopel often have mean and nasty dogs.

My brother wanted a pitpull but his apartment wouldn't allow them so he got a mutt. But it all turned out for the best as that dog, Chloey, turned out to be the kindest gentlest dog I've seen since my own Sadie (my she rest in peace:-().


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## FishyFishy89

thekinetic said:


> Pitbulls are really sweet dogs but it all goes back to my take on dogs. It's never the dog it's always the owner. Mean and nasty peopel often have mean and nasty dogs.
> 
> My brother wanted a pitpull but his apartment wouldn't allow them so he got a mutt. But it all turned out for the best as that dog, Chloey, turned out to be the kindest gentlest dog I've seen since my own Sadie (my she rest in peace:-().


it is not just the people
it is also in genetics
look at us, see how we get anger issues. it is because our parents or whomever in our family has anger issues.
same goes for dogs. their genetics work the same as ours do.


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## ANHEL123

i love dogs to death, and I have a dog,but unfortunately i agree with Fishy89. 
But it sad because in real life i do know a lot of people who had very sweet pit bulls. And now they all have bad reputation. I am sure you already discussed it in those 40 pages so i am not going to repeat.......

Also i think now it probably all of them are mutts. 

I wish people stop breeding them


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## FishyFishy89

ANHEL123 said:


> i love dogs to death, and I have a dog,but unfortunately i agree with Fishy89.
> But it sad because in real life i do know a lot of people who had very sweet pit bulls. And now they all have bad reputation. I am sure you already discussed it in those 40 pages so i am not going to repeat.......
> 
> Also i think now it probably all of them are mutts.
> 
> I wish people stop breeding them


Me as well
I honestly think the only people who should breed these (or any) animals should go take a test to question their sanity. Then take a test to prove they know how to care for their animals properly, THEN take another test to question how much they know about the animal(s) they are wanting to breed, THEN submit their work and tax information to prove they can afford these animals, and THEN pay to get licensed to breed these animals. And they should only get licensed if their efforts are to IMPROVE the animals as a whole. NOT to make a profit.
I think that if they have to go through that much trouble to breed animals for a profit then they wouldn't want to. If they are doing these for the love of the animals and it is their passion, they won't mind going through the trouble.
ALSO, I think they need to have a registry for all animals that are bred and produced and sold to monitor to whom bought the animal and where the animal is going in it's life. This registry can also keep track of how many producing this breeder is doing and how much of a profit he or she is actually making. Should this breeder be producing too much or having too many animals and not selling them yet still producing then the breeder's license shall be removed and the animals placed in appropriate homes.


----------



## ANHEL123

lol i agree if they would pay this much money and time they will stop breed them. I don't think it will ever happen though


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## FishyFishy89

ANHEL123 said:


> lol i agree if they would pay this much money and time they will stop breed them. I don't think it will ever happen though


alls it takes is just one person to unite everyone together
the government moves when there is too much pressure


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## xShainax

My friend is 4 months pregnant and adopted a 9 year old brindle pitty from her grandma. The other day she was walking him and some lady came up telling her "You need to put that monster down before it kills you and the baby" He is the sweetest pit bull I have ever seen. She also has a lab/shar-pei mix who loves to jump on him. He lets her do it and lays there wagging his tail and licking her


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## FishyFishy89

xShainax said:


> My friend is 4 months pregnant and adopted a 9 year old brindle pitty from her grandma. The other day she was walking him and some lady came up telling her "You need to put that F*cking monster down before it kills you and the baby" He is the sweetest pit bull I have ever seen. She also has a lab/shar-pei mix who loves to jump on him. He lets her do it and lays there wagging his tail and licking her


some people are just ignorant and won't even bother to give anything a chance


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## Spazzfish

If your worried about monsters killing you then go home lock your doors! people can be the biggest monsters out there but no one judges them for what some psyco mass murderer did. 

A lot of dogs have agression issues from bad breeding or inbreeding to get a fur.color blue pits, for example have been inbred for years, as a result alot are messed up in the head and, sadly can be dangerous.

And honestly the meanest dogs ive ever met where little dogs if they had the size to back up the agression they would be probaly ten times more dangerous than a pit.


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## Bethydan

With improper breeding and handling, any breed can become dangerous. I worked at a vet's office for a couple of years, and every pit that came in was aggressive and labeled as dangerous because of past behavior, BUT.... I was working in a very small and rural community of ********. White trash and naturally strong dogs do not mix. :-( Pits that I've met elsewhere were just total goofballs. They were more likely to squish or slobber me to death. :lol:


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## xShainax

I have a chow mix and people say he will turn blood thirsty. Yeah, at 10 he is goinng to kill the family. SMH


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## MyRainbowBettaFish

it is unbelievable how low some people treat animals....It makes me feel like my heart just shatters when people abuse or neglect animals. I have a dog who came from a shelter after being abused, neglected, starved and with a huge bloody scar on his underbelly. He was only 6-9 months when we got him with all these issues..poor thing. I also can't stand it when even a bee or any animal is hurt or mistreated..it kills me inside. I just wish some people would think before they act for a change.


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## thekinetic

FishyFishy89 said:


> it is not just the people
> it is also in genetics
> look at us, see how we get anger issues. it is because our parents or whomever in our family has anger issues.
> same goes for dogs. their genetics work the same as ours do.


Genes don't work that way, and besides that's not genetics that nurture. But I can guarantee that if the dog had a mean parent somewhere the parent had a mean owner. 

People are no different and some people are mean because of their parents while others are because of society. Where the root of all this is is unknown but given the history of human beings we have a predisposition toward violence due to the fact that we have unnatural want for wealth and are willing to go to any extreme to get it. Combine that with our want for power, a natural want most animals share, and you got a recipe for disaster.

It's why I consider animals completely innocent as they're only following instinct but dogs have been with people so long that they are symbiotic and thus only reflect what they've learned from us.

But digress, I still consider all dogs to be initially kind. And I have yet to meet any that were mean to me. And I stand by that pitbulls are sweet and loving like all the rest.


----------



## FishyFishy89

thekinetic said:


> Genes don't work that way, and besides that's not genetics that nurture. But I can guarantee that if the dog had a mean parent somewhere the parent had a mean owner.
> 
> People are no different and some people are mean because of their parents while others are because of society. Where the root of all this is is unknown but given the history of human beings we have a predisposition toward violence due to the fact that we have unnatural want for wealth and are willing to go to any extreme to get it. Combine that with our want for power, a natural want most animals share, and you got a recipe for disaster.
> 
> It's why I consider animals completely innocent as they're only following instinct but dogs have been with people so long that they are symbiotic and thus only reflect what they've learned from us.
> 
> But digress, I still consider all dogs to be initially kind. And I have yet to meet any that were mean to me. And I stand by that pitbulls are sweet and loving like all the rest.


you should REALLY start studying science more often.


----------



## Granberry

Fishy, I don't know what research you're thinking she's lacking, but the statement "People are no different and some people are mean because of their parents while others are because of society" is correct. You usually hear it stated "Some people are bad and some are mad" (meaning crazy) but it is a combination of both.

I would, however, encourage you to study up on political science and economics. Your suggestion about testing breeders for their mental status, breed breed knowledge, requiring tax and work information etc. is so far from being possible and/or legal that it's laughable. Who would be in charge of monitoring this master registry that tracks the number of pups a person produces versus sells and then enters and takes their dogs away if the numbers are bad? We can't deprive people of property without due process, and I don't know where you live, but in my state, even child welfare workers who are responsible for making sure children in foster homes aren't abused are shockingly underpaid and overworked. Tax dollars only go so far, and a budget won't allow a state to monitor people the way you suggest.

Which, BTW, is where this whole thread came from. We can't enforce the quality of pit bull owners; we therefore have to affect the quantity and the conditions under which they are held.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> Fishy, I don't know what research you're thinking she's lacking, but the statement "People are no different and some people are mean because of their parents while others are because of society" is correct. You usually hear it stated "Some people are bad and some are mad" (meaning crazy) but it is a combination of both.
> 
> I would, however, encourage you to study up on political science and economics. Your suggestion about testing breeders for their mental status, breed breed knowledge, requiring tax and work information etc. is so far from being possible and/or legal that it's laughable. Who would be in charge of monitoring this master registry that tracks the number of pups a person produces versus sells and then enters and takes their dogs away if the numbers are bad? We can't deprive people of property without due process, and I don't know where you live, but in my state, even child welfare workers who are responsible for making sure children in foster homes aren't abused are shockingly underpaid and overworked. Tax dollars only go so far, and a budget won't allow a state to monitor people the way you suggest.
> 
> Which, BTW, is where this whole thread came from. We can't enforce the quality of pit bull owners; we therefore have to affect the quantity and the conditions under which they are held.


I am talking about where she was referring to "that is not how genetics work"
Genetics DO help to determine your behavior. HOWEVER, your up bringing helps a bit to "train" it.
Just like genetics help to determine how your healthy your teeth are but with proper dentistry your teeth can be healthy.
Same thing with heart disease, but living a healthy life style changes your chances of heart disease.


I am not denying her thought on how society shapes us. But she clearly presents herself as she is denying how our genetics shape us as well.


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## teeneythebetta

Oh god yes! If you're a pit bull lover- I advise you not go to yahoo answers. There are dozens of questions attacking pit bulls and other misunderstood breeds like dobbies, rotties & occasionally GSDs.

I have an APBT and an APBT/staffy mix... But they both classify under the term "pit bull". They are the sweetest little babies! The APBT is 14 and the other is 7 (but still acts like a puppy). They share their home with 5 kids- one being me, I'm 15 and my younger siblings ages 12, 5, 3 and 1. Oh and also two Cat's. 

My sister and her friend got off the bus stop when I was walking my younger dog. I walked over to talk to them and at first she hesitated to pet him. I said,"it's ok he's just a big baby." She pet him and he wagged his tail and got excited, then she said "I like pit bulls now." <3

I am going to have pit bulls for the rest of my life. I volunteer at a no kill shelter. We have several pit bulls and they are hard to place in homes. The main reason is that most people don't WANT one of this breed, but also because they cannot give them the exercise they need, or because they don't have a good vet reference. And these babies are so sweet! The only dog bite we have ever had was done by a PUG. (I dont have anything against pugs, and I know they don't all bite, but neither do pit bulls)

I'm on mobile so I cannot post pictures. If you go to this thread I started, the very first post shows my babies  http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=101968

"Judge the deed, not the breed. Give a pit bull a try before sentencing them all to die."

"Racism is the pits" -Pit bulls & parolees, animal planet


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## Nasha66

Pit bulls are my favorite kind of dog, people seem to think that because they are always used in dog fights that they are naturally agressive, but really the owners force them into fighting.
I wrote a poem for my English class from the dogs point of veiw that shows what really happens to pitbulls in fights, and the terrible price payed by the dogs who lose (it's rather long, sorry) :


_*A fighting dog’s final choice.*_​ 


A small red dog lies on the kennel floor.​ 

She never plays, never runs.​ 

A man throws her food,​ 

Gives her drugged water.​ 

She drinks and her head throbs.​ 


The man returns,​ 

he yanks her collar,​ 

she follows.​ 


He brings her far into the woods,​ 

men and boys point and jeer.​ 

She pulls away,​ 

she wants to leave,​ 

to go home.​ 


A new man rubs her coat down roughly.​ 

The man takes her back,​ 

thrusts her in “the pit”.​ 

A black dog stands at the other end.​ 

He growls, he lunges, his owner holds him back.​ 


A whistle blow starts the fight,​ 

The black dog knows what to do,​ 

he has done this before.​ 

He is on her fast,​ 

ripping,​ 

tearing,​ 

fangs like daggers,​ 

PAIN, PAIN, PAIN!​ 


A cry of defeat, suddenly the fangs are gone.​ 

A hand on her collar jerks her head up.​ 

She stumbles and falls,​ 

she wants to lie still,​ 

suddenly hard arms grab and lift her.​ 


She is pulled from the hateful arena,​ 

carried far away to a bridge.​ 

Hands at her legs, pushing to hard,​ 

her legs snap and she howls in pain.​ 

The same hands tie a brick to her chest,​ 

they are covered with her blood,​ 

red paint.​ 


A sudden push, then,​ 

falling, falling, falling.​ 

The water hits hard,​ 

she can’t fight it,​ 

doesn’t want to.​ 


It pulls her under and her chest aches,​ 

not from the lack of air,​ 

from what she has always felt since the day she was born,​ 

pain, suffering, and longing,​ 

all she ever wanted was to be loved,​ 

she never got that.​ 


She never had a single choice in her life,​ 

Now she had one,​ 

and in making one last choice she was freed.​ 

She went in peace, without hate, and gave in.​ 


Then it was over, her spirit departed.​ 

Never again to be beaten,​ 

never again to be used as bait,​ 

Never again to face the true killer,​ 

The Owner,​ 

Not,​ 

The Dog.​


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## tpocicat

Beautiful poem. Made me cry.

I have a wonderful 7 year old pit. I was told when he was a puppy that because he has a red nose, I would have trouble with him when he grew up. Still hasn't happened.


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## dramaqueen

Beautiful poem, Nasha.


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## teeneythebetta

Beautiful poem! So sad. 



tpocicat said:


> Beautiful poem. Made me cry.
> 
> I have a wonderful 7 year old pit. I was told when he was a puppy that because he has a red nose, I would have trouble with him when he grew up. Still hasn't happened.


That is total BULL SHark. A lot of people think their nose color makes them more or less "special" when all it is is a color. Saying a red nose would be more aggressive is like saying someone with blue eyes will be mean. Color is color is color. Has nothing to do with temperament.


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## Sceven

FishyFishy89 said:


> Me as well
> I honestly think the only people who should breed these (or any) animals should go take a test to question their sanity. Then take a test to prove they know how to care for their animals properly, THEN take another test to question how much they know about the animal(s) they are wanting to breed, THEN submit their work and tax information to prove they can afford these animals, and THEN pay to get licensed to breed these animals. And they should only get licensed if their efforts are to IMPROVE the animals as a whole. NOT to make a profit.
> I think that if they have to go through that much trouble to breed animals for a profit then they wouldn't want to. If they are doing these for the love of the animals and it is their passion, they won't mind going through the trouble.
> ALSO, I think they need to have a registry for all animals that are bred and produced and sold to monitor to whom bought the animal and where the animal is going in it's life. This registry can also keep track of how many producing this breeder is doing and how much of a profit he or she is actually making. Should this breeder be producing too much or having too many animals and not selling them yet still producing then the breeder's license shall be removed and the animals placed in appropriate homes.


Funny,

I feel the same way about people and their children.


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## teeneythebetta

Sceven, youre awesome! That would not only produce healthier animals but there would be little-to-no animals being killed in shelters every day!


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## Batmantha

I've been bitten by more chihuahuas in my time.

Anything is capable of going to the dark side so to speak. If it isn't trained or socialised properly then its even more at risk and unfortunately its on both sides. Both people and dogs need to be taught how to act. We had this one woman at puppy school that every time a dog went up to her dog she would scream and pick it up so that dog is going to get a complex

When I did my early morning walks with the the eldest pup (mastiff x Shep) there used to be a woman with 4 small yapping dogs that would NEVER be leashed and would constantly run up and start nipping at us and yet she would always come and grab her dogs and say mine should be muzzled, go figure.

I've known a vicious rottie and then a rottie who acted like a giant cat so it really does come down to training and socializing in my opinion


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## ANHEL123

FishyFishy89 said:


> alls it takes is just one person to unite everyone together
> the government moves when there is too much pressure


Unfortunately i don't think it that easy. It is not enough enforcement to do it(not enough people from the law to take care of the problem). It like for example drags. It against the law but this problem still exists and always will be…or for example pappy mills. No one can control it.

I live in the state where we have a lot of dog fighting (of course pit bulls) and it’s of course against the law, but it exists for many many years. It sad people buy them and breed them for fighting. 

So unfortunately it not that easy. 


Also my husband was reading invasion house accident that happened a few days ago in my town. People in the house had pit bull that was rescued from the shelter and was in the fight before… The people who invaded the house were attacked by dog , so basically the dog save the people’s life.


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## FishyFishy89

ANHEL123 said:


> Unfortunately i don't think it that easy. It is not enough enforcement to do it(not enough people from the law to take care of the problem). It like for example drags. It against the law but this problem still exists and always will be…or for example pappy mills. No one can control it.
> 
> I live in the state where we have a lot of dog fighting (of course pit bulls) and it’s of course against the law, but it exists for many many years. It sad people buy them and breed them for fighting.
> 
> So unfortunately it not that easy.
> 
> 
> Also my husband was reading invasion house accident that happened a few days ago in my town. People in the house had pit bull that was rescued from the shelter and was in the fight before… The people who invaded the house were attacked by dog , so basically the dog save the people’s life.



It has been done before. It can be done again.


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## staffylover

I love pitbulls but sadly they are banned in the UK and BSL is making lives of anyone who owns a dog that is the same size as a pit a complete misery. Dogs are taken based on their looks and measurements and are confined to sparse kennels until their court date (which could take weeks) and the outcome of court could go two ways. The dog is released back to its owner but has to be neutered, tattoo's and muzzled at all times, the alternative is that the dog is put to sleep. Most of these dogs have done nothing wrong except look 'pit type'. I have owned Staffordshire Bull Terriers for 20 years and cannot fault them, they have been great with all people and children and of the 4 I have owned one hated other dogs.
Any dog can be aggressive - deed not breed!


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## ANHEL123

so sad. I would understand the low about keep them in muzzled outside, neutered but everything else , especially keep them in the kennels until court date it cruel. Good luck to you  I love picture in your avatar.


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## tpocicat

It's too sad...I guess I'm lucky here in California, we have a law that states no breed spacific laws are allowed. I'd hate for my beautiful, loveable pit to be put down just because he's a pit!


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## teeneythebetta

staffylover said:


> I love pitbulls but sadly they are banned in the UK and BSL is making lives of anyone who owns a dog that is the same size as a pit a complete misery. Dogs are taken based on their looks and measurements and are confined to sparse kennels until their court date (which could take weeks) and the outcome of court could go two ways. The dog is released back to its owner but has to be neutered, tattoo's and muzzled at all times, the alternative is that the dog is put to sleep. Most of these dogs have done nothing wrong except look 'pit type'. I have owned Staffordshire Bull Terriers for 20 years and cannot fault them, they have been great with all people and children and of the 4 I have owned one hated other dogs.
> Any dog can be aggressive - deed not breed!


Aww poor babies  I understand if the dog shows aggressive signs, but REALLY? That is just ridiculous. In the place that I live in Florida, there are no laws on the crap. The only good thing about them making people neuter their dogs is that there will be less back yard bred pit bulls, then the people producing TRUE APBTs or Staffs can do what they do.


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## Curlyfatbottom

To many page to read through.....
Stop at page 2
But to be honest which dog u rather get bit by
A pit or other
If I've was going to choose it would be neither but I rather get bitten by any other dog then a pit
Do to the jaw strength n locking down the jaw with a head shake
Bottom line it depend on the owner 
My little sister mutt bully my brother pit when they are eating
The mutt is 1/3 the size of the pit


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## Curlyfatbottom

FishyFishy89 said:


> it is not just the people
> it is also in genetics
> look at us, see how we get anger issues. it is because our parents or whomever in our family has anger issues.
> same goes for dogs. their genetics work the same as ours do.


I've disagree 
Bring me a wean 6 week old pup from a blood lust parent(fighting pit)
It will grow up to be a gentel pet


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## teeneythebetta

Very rarely DOG aggression (NOT human aggression) can be found genetically. BUT if you work with that dog from a very very young age, it is still possible to almost train it out of him.


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## tpocicat

Pits like so many dog breeds only want to please their owners, so if that owner wants their pit to fight or be aggressive, it will be. If the owner however wants a wonderful pet, that too can happen.


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## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> I've disagree
> Bring me a wean 6 week old pup from a blood lust parent(fighting pit)
> It will grow up to be a gentel pet


I assume you haven't spent as much time as I have studying genetics.
If you read my previous posts, I also stated that while most behavior is genetic it CAN be curbed/trained. Just like your chances for heart problems can be reduced by having a healthy lifestyle.


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## Curlyfatbottom

Study can beat hand on
I raise many pit over the lifetime
Never have a problem with wean pup
If u introduce them to a mellow old dog u should be fine
The problem people have problem with pit
Is that they only hear the broken down,strave n cage dog
That train to kill n eject with hormo
If u do that to any dog it will fight
Only reason people choose pit to fit
It there jaw strength 
In the wrong hand any dog try to kill


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## ZackyBear

The ChowChow was a very rough dog (aggression wise) and bad breeding can lead to temper issues. Good breeding will still have aggression but...less.

I love Pit-Bulls. But there are just so many people out there who don't take the time to raise them right and then give the breed a bad name.

My neighbor used to have a Pitbull named Macamai (pretty eyes in Hawaiian) and she scared me a lot until one of my own dogs got into her end of the backyard. She was the sweetest thing ever. 

I also love how the Pitbulls are nicknamed as the "Nanny Dog".


----------



## kfryman

My sisters pits live with my family and they are super sweet, they want to be by you and make you happy, they make you mad they try to make you happy, but I always make them lay on their bed for a while.

Right now they are sleeping on my bed with one of my cats, as in laying against, and the cat came after they did. So you can see how good cats trust them.

I think all dogs need to be socialized with other animals at a young age, or they will be aggressive. One of the pits is dog aggressive the other is not. I admit my sister shouldn't own any more pits as she doesnt really provide the care for them, I hope to have one when I can.

I see that most small dogs are dog aggressive and people aggressive then I see pits or other dogs. I have been bit by small dogs much more often then bigger dogs, it is just a big dog will do more damage, so the news will cover it. I got bit by a German shepard, let's say that I was in pain, even though he didn't get me that good, and that was all because he wasn't use to someone running.


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## SweetNightmare

A friend of mine once had a pit. She was a sweet little baby doll, so friendly. One day, she got out on accident. We searched and searched for her. When we called the humane society to see if a dog by her description had come in:

"Yeah, we got a pit bull in by that description. We put her to sleep."

Didn't even wait a day for the owner! Just because she was a pit! She never even growled at strangers, so she wasn't aggressive at all.

I'm more scared of small dogs than big. I once got bit by a poodle at work, and all I'd done was reach out to let it sniff me. The owners laughed, they thought their little vicious biter was being cute. If my chow possibly kelpie mix did that, everyone would cry for her to be put down.


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## ZackyBear

If she had her tags on, her owner could have sued them. Most shelters don't take chances with what they deem as a 'rogue' Pit. It's very cruel....


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## teeneythebetta

SweetNightmare said:


> A friend of mine once had a pit. She was a sweet little baby doll, so friendly. One day, she got out on accident. We searched and searched for her. When we called the humane society to see if a dog by her description had come in:
> 
> "Yeah, we got a pit bull in by that description. We put her to sleep."
> 
> Didn't even wait a day for the owner! Just because she was a pit! She never even growled at strangers, so she wasn't aggressive at all.
> 
> I'm more scared of small dogs than big. I once got bit by a poodle at work, and all I'd done was reach out to let it sniff me. The owners laughed, they thought their little vicious biter was being cute. If my chow possibly kelpie mix did that, everyone would cry for her to be put down.


Oh my gosh that's so sad. Aww.:'( poor baby. I think I'm gonna go die in a hole now


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## tpocicat

All my cats and dogs have microchips, I would hope if my pit ever got out, they would call me first because he is chipped.


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## SweetNightmare

I think she slipped out of the door without her collar, if I'm remembering correctly, which is why we were searching so hard. It was the same day though, you'd think they'd wait at least a day to see if anyone came looking. Sure, might be a fine for the owner, but it's not a dead dog. I'd take the fee for her getting out without her collar over them putting her down any day.


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## tpocicat

A+^


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Study can beat hand on
> I raise many pit over the lifetime
> Never have a problem with wean pup
> If u introduce them to a mellow old dog u should be fine
> The problem people have problem with pit
> Is that they only hear the broken down,strave n cage dog
> That train to kill n eject with hormo
> If u do that to any dog it will fight
> Only reason people choose pit to fit
> It there jaw strength
> In the wrong hand any dog try to kill


I doubt if you do that to any dog it will fight. Do that to my pug and she will likely just shiver and cry. 
And you can't just introduce the pup to a mellow old dog and your good. If my golden lab was still alive she wouldn't handle my pug. And she was a mellow old dog. 
And your right research CAN beat hands on. Not always. But it can.


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## Curlyfatbottom

I mean can't 
How old is your pug???
If it's young enough it can change


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## teeneythebetta

Raising a dog to NOT be dog aggressive doesn't just involve letting them meet A mellow dog.

It involves TRAINING, and meeting MANY dogs regardless of temperament(of course friendly tho) not just one dog can form your dog.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> I mean can't
> How old is your pug???
> If it's young enough it can change


age has nothing to do with it
but to humor myself with your thoughts, she is 2 years old.


Have you ever heard of the say "teach an old dog new tricks?"


----------



## FishyFishy89

teeneythebetta said:


> Raising a dog to NOT be dog aggressive doesn't just involve letting them meet A mellow dog.
> 
> It involves TRAINING, and meeting MANY dogs regardless of temperament(of course friendly tho) not just one dog can form your dog.


+++++1

Thing is I don't think CurlyFatBottom even bothered to read my previous posts. Where I basically said "while it maybe genetic, it can be 'trained'. like your chances for heart disease, teeth problems, etc, etc". And if he or she did read my previous posts he or she doesn't understand and I may need to find a way to further help him or her understand.


----------



## Nuts4Mutts

Yeah! One thing that drives me kinda nuts, is my neighbor kid sometimes likes to come over to play. Well, we had to babysit him & he wanted to bring his little dog over so I could train her... but his mom said "No! They have a pitbull! It will eat little Lilly!" ugggghhhhhh so I tried explaining that Otto the 'pit bull' would drown the Chi from slobbery kisses before he's eat her, PLUS he stays outdoors on his run, and the Chi would stay inside... but whatev... 

Then before the boy got to know Otto, he saw him, and said "A pitbull! Can he break off that chain? Mom says he will bite my head off!!!" 

Yeeeeaaahhh... drives me insane how people get ONE bad experience with a dog/anything, and assume that ALL must be like that ONE! Hm... so my friend got bit hard by his lab/golden pup, does that mean that ALL labs/goldens are gonna bite then? :shock:


----------



## starrlamia

FishyFishy89 said:


> +++++1
> 
> Thing is I don't think CurlyFatBottom even bothered to read my previous posts. Where I basically said "while it maybe genetic, it can be 'trained'. like your chances for heart disease, teeth problems, etc, etc". And if he or she did read my previous posts he or she doesn't understand and I may need to find a way to further help him or her understand.


dog aggression is a genetic trait within pit bulls and it isnt uncommon for them to not like other dogs after maturing, regardless of socialization. It isnt a matter of training in this case, you can train the dog to not spaz out around other dogs but you cant train them to like them.


----------



## teeneythebetta

One other thing that erks me is back yard breeding. I HATE BYBing of all kinds, but it is very common in pit bulls.

Unfortunately my dogs are not neutered (my dad didn't want it done- he's one of those guys that just is that way -_-) But so I'm walking my dog and this guy says "hey you wanna breed him" I WANTED to say "Fudge off, there's dogs dying every day, many pit bulls, why make more?" but instead I replied with a "NO."

-_-


----------



## tpocicat

teeneythebetta said:


> One other thing that erks me is back yard breeding. I HATE BYBing of all kinds, but it is very common in pit bulls.
> 
> Unfortunately my dogs are not neutered (my dad didn't want it done- he's one of those guys that just is that way -_-) But so I'm walking my dog and this guy says "hey you wanna breed him" I WANTED to say "Fudge off, there's dogs dying every day, many pit bulls, why make more?" but instead I replied with a "NO."
> 
> -_-


All of my dogs/cats are neutered. You're right about back yard breeding, especially about pit bulls. I hate it too.


----------



## teeneythebetta

tpocicat said:


> All of my dogs/cats are neutered. You're right about back yard breeding, especially about pit bulls. I hate it too.


Plus asking me, I'm a kid! I'm small for my age, and I'm 15. Like how irresponsible is that? 

IK When I eventually have my own pit bulls, they'll all be spayed/neutered, same with my Cat's.

My current Cat's are spayed & neutered, because A. They're mine. And B. My dad doesn't like Cat's so he doesn't care.


----------



## FishyFishy89

starrlamia said:


> dog aggression is a genetic trait within pit bulls and it isnt uncommon for them to not like other dogs after maturing, regardless of socialization. It isnt a matter of training in this case, you can train the dog to not spaz out around other dogs but you cant train them to like them.


I do not believe in training to "make them" like another dog.
You cannot change feelings in animals.
What are you finding confusing about what I am saying?

I have NOT said you can train them to like another animal. I have said you can train them to see that aggression is not acceptable behavior(according to the public) and that the dog needs to act accordingly.

BTW the genetic trait isn't JUST in pit bulls. It is inside every single dog that displays in a certain degree.


----------



## tpocicat

My current Cat's are spayed & neutered, because A. They're mine. And B. My dad doesn't like Cat's so he doesn't care.[/quote]

My dad didn't like cats either. When I was growing up, I couldn't even have a cat! I think that is why I have so many now! (7)


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Don't say what u haven't seen
You can train any dog to attack
My worst n meanest dog was a 65 pound German Shepard 
Will try to kill any thing that not part of the family
From the size of a bird to a human n everything in between

Yes just one dog can't change everything
But it learn from the older one
I walk the dog 4-7 time a week
My brother take them to dog show
U can read all u want
Pit are not killer if u raise them right
The last I hear 
The akata(I think that how u spell it) was top area dog
Loss skin, heavy bite n massive bone


----------



## teeneythebetta

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Don't say what u haven't seen
> You can train any dog to attack
> My worst n meanest dog was a 65 pound German Shepard
> Will try to kill any thing that not part of the family
> From the size of a bird to a human n everything in between
> 
> Yes just one dog can't change everything
> But it learn from the older one
> I walk the dog 4-7 time a week
> My brother take them to dog show
> U can read all u want
> Pit are not killer if u raise them right
> The last I hear
> The akata(I think that how u spell it) was top area dog
> Loss skin, heavy bite n massive bone


Okay... Let's not down other breeds when defending our own.


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

My breed
If anybody ask me it's English bulldog
Also want Frenchy to but kind of low in money to get a nice one


----------



## MaisyDawgThirteen

I don't think any dog is 'born' aggressive, they are what you make them . . .


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Yeah it's Akita not akata
Also know as the Chinese fighting dog
Eject any dog with hormone will make the dog aggressive 
Or any type of animal


----------



## Olympia

Dogo argentino, fila braseilero, tosa inu. Pits are babies compared to these guys.
Tosa inu is the japanese dog you wanna watch for, yea Akita are pretty big and scary up front too. Dogo argentino and the fila, monster south American dogs. Fila standard calls for "ojeriza" meaning a clear showing of dislike towards strangers. In brazil, the home of the fila, dog show judges cannot touch this dog, they should not be able to. And if a fila attacks the judge, it's not a fault but a confirmation of proper temperament. 
Big, beautiful regal dogs, all of them. They will love ya to death, but you best be more of a lone wolf to have them around. No amount of "socializing" can remove the fila's built in distrust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

How about the Tibetan mastiff


----------



## Olympia

Mmm, yea! I'd say so.
Caucasian Ovcharka is probably a close second to the Fila. Another true monster I forgot to mention. 

If you want to scare someone, nothing does it like a Neapolitan Mastiff. It's like a giant bulldog with all the wrinkles.

There's a reason all these breeds are rare and hard to find. Not enough owners for dogs like these, the breeders are doing a good job at keeping their numbers low. All these old style dogs really have no place in a modern city (though some individuals may adapt to city life decently)...


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Plus the price
Most people won't pay an arm n a leg for a dog
The top Tibetan mastiff went for 1.5 million


----------



## Olympia

Yea, I guess Pits are more available to low income people who gamble them.
But seriously, pits have no people aggression naturally. Those dogs I named up there? Yea, be scared of those ones.


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Yeah
Stander pit
Run u about 50-200
Then the bully pit
Run about 500-60,000


----------



## teeneythebetta

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Yeah
> Stander pit
> Run u about 50-200
> Then the bully pit
> Run about 500-60,000


Or you could save a life & adopt rather than support back yard breeders.  That's my motto


----------



## Olympia

I'm sure that's what all the dog fighters are doing.

I love all the rare power breeds. A lot of them are best imported from their country of origin. Many don't have an American standard so you can't really get "show winners."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

No dog pond have my style of liking in pit
Raindeer dog 
U won't ever catch me walking those
Extreme is what I walk
Short compact smash with a big crack skull with a big dip between the eye
With a big drop chest


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Yeah I breed in the backyard
But I'm taking care of what I breed
Vet check up
Diet
Walk
Clean three time a day
Between my yard n brother yard
We spend over 7,000


----------



## teeneythebetta

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Yeah I breed in the backyard
> But I'm taking care of what I breed
> Vet check up
> Diet
> Walk
> Clean three time a day
> Between my yard n brother yard
> We spend over 7,000


Wait, when I say back yard breed are you taking it literally? 
Pretty much if you don't do genetic health testing and have best in show dogs it's BYBing.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Instant loss of my respect.


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

I run health test
Bully are not show dog 
Can't never win a show but it will outsell show champ even it go for 10x as much
My last pick pup out sell a show champion first pick
Bully pit is a totally different game n look from a pitbull


----------



## teeneythebetta

FishyFishy89 said:


> Instant loss of my respect.


+1 that is if I'm interpreting you right..?


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Yeah we only have 5 dog total


----------



## Olympia

:lol: this will get interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FishyFishy89

teeneythebetta said:


> +1 that is if I'm interpreting you right..?


yes
I am VERY against backyard breeding. I don't care if you run health tests/over price your dogs. You are scum to me.



Olympia said:


> :lol: this will get interesting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


sadly, it will


----------



## teeneythebetta

FishyFishy89 said:


> yes
> I am VERY against backyard breeding. I don't care if you run health tests/over price your dogs. You are scum to me.
> 
> 
> sadly, it will


++++++++++1111111 

I know I'm about to unsubscribe from this thread coz I'm getting a little irritated by what was a good thread that was sorta.. Meh.. Contaminated.
I don't love my dogs for the way they look or their power or to be "cool" I like them for their fun loving personalities. They're not accessories, they're family.


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Say all u want
My dog are reason price
Cheaper then what u will expect
If u truly know how much a good looking dog will go for
I bet my dog are heathier then your
If u can't afford it 
It's not my fault 
If I'm paying 8,000 for the female
Plus 5,000 for breeding
Plus another thousand for vet bill
Don't expect the pup to be in the hundred


----------



## teeneythebetta

Other than the fact that *somebody* :roll: is hungry for it, what does this have to do with money? 

Schmeh. I officially hate this thread. Sorry.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Say all u want
> My dog are reason price
> Cheaper then what u will expect
> If u truly know how much a good looking dog will go for
> I bet my dog are heathier then your
> If u can't afford it
> It's not my fault
> If I'm paying 8,000 for the female
> Plus 5,000 for breeding
> Plus another thousand for vet bill
> Don't expect the pup to be in the hundred


ROFL
clearly you have no concern for the thousands of dogs who die in shelters. including yours.


----------



## Olympia

My bio teacher did animal experiments on registered, purebred show dogs that no one wanted. Boxers and collies I believe. People bring em in. I'll prolly get to do the same in Uni.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

I help out my brother 
I make my profit
Even if it's a hundred it's still a profit
I breed English 
I skip every two heat 
Backyard yes
But I'm getting good line n cross them to good line
So if u think 2.5k is over charge

Thanks for window shopping
Come back when every


----------



## teeneythebetta

FTW.

and this is why I like animals more than people. It's really sad. 
"I make profit off of killing dogs! Yay as long as I have my $ I don't give a shitaco."


----------



## Olympia

"for the win"?
Yes I'll probably get to kill a ton of dogs in university on my way to becoming a vet so I can save dogs lives. Welcome to the real world... Funny how it works?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## teeneythebetta

Actually it's.. Fudge the world but okay
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Boo whoo
Just because I want it n can get it 
I have to say bad thing
Or yes I have it now
A few month down the road
I hate n can't afford to care for it
Let toss it to someone to care for it
Without breeder u won't have your pets
If u really hate this world
Good luck
Your seed will really like u
Sprouting n growing by your side


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> I help out my brother
> I make my profit
> Even if it's a hundred it's still a profit
> I breed English
> I skip every two heat
> Backyard yes
> But I'm getting good line n cross them to good line
> So if u think 2.5k is over charge
> 
> Thanks for window shopping
> Come back when every


See? this is the difference between a GREAT breeder and a backyard breeder. GREAT breeders think about where their pups will end up. Breeders like you. Could careless about this "beautiful animals" their producing.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Boo whoo
> Just because I want it n can get it
> I have to say bad thing
> Or yes I have it now
> A few month down the road
> I hate n can't afford to care for it
> Let toss it to someone to care for it
> Without breeder u won't have your pets
> If u really hate this world
> Good luck
> Your seed will really like u
> Sprouting n growing by your side


half of this makes no sense
but thats part of someone trying to defend themselves when everyone says what their doing is bad and horrible.
GREAT breeders only breed to IMPROVE the breed
GREAT breeders care about their pups
i can go on and on


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Great breeder reproduce great looking dog
If people willing to pay 2.5k plus for my dogs
What does that tell u
Quailty or qunity


----------



## teeneythebetta

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Great breeder reproduce great looking dog
> If people willing to pay 2.5k plus for my dogs
> What does that tell u
> Quailty or qunity


I think it tells me they're stupid. Well the people buying from you are probably BYBers too, so it makes sense.


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Lol
Show champion English bulldog run 5k- 15k
This is not your ordinary breed of dog
My female have a handful of champion in her line
Plus the male that I've breed her to produce champion


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

I'm a backyard breeder
But I choose my blood wisely
Not going to pick any ordinary dog n breed it


----------



## teeneythebetta

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Lol
> Show champion English bulldog run 5k- 15k
> This is not your ordinary breed of dog
> My female have a handful of champion in her line
> Plus the male that I've breed her to produce champion


Woop dee doo dah. :dunno:


----------



## Olympia

Bull dogs are expensive cause you gotta c-section them all! xD
I'm a fan of the working dog. If your fancy show champ border collie doesn't herd sheep amazingly it's not worth breeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaisyDawgThirteen

I got my dog from the pound, and I think that's the best thing to do - I don't care HOW much the breeder 'cares', if there are hundreds of thousands of dogs that are homeless, why bring more into the world?


----------



## teeneythebetta

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I got my dog from the pound, and I think that's the best thing to do - I don't care HOW much the breeder 'cares', if there are hundreds of thousands of dogs that are homeless, why bring more into the world?


+1

Some people are selfish and don't care what ever it takes they want $$.


----------



## Olympia

Donate em to science. Maybe we'll finally cure dog cancer. Where I'm from if you find pups or kits in the bucket they go. Eastern animal control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Great breeder reproduce great looking dog
> If people willing to pay 2.5k plus for my dogs
> What does that tell u
> Quailty or qunity


like i said
i can go on and on
you really dont care for "quality" you care for QUANTITY. (gawd, please learn to use spell check).
You see what is the popular look for "bully pits" and you adjust your breeding for that. Why? because it gives you money.
Real and GREAT breeders don't bother changing the look of their breeder UNLESS they see it will improve the breed health wise.
You, my friend, are NOT a great breeder.
THIS is a great breeder! http://www.brittonfarmsdobermans.com/index.html


----------



## starrlamia

FishyFishy89 said:


> like i said
> i can go on and on
> you really dont care for "quality" you care for QUANTITY. (gawd, please learn to use spell check).
> You see what is the popular look for "bully pits" and you adjust your breeding for that. Why? because it gives you money.
> Real and GREAT breeders don't bother changing the look of their breeder UNLESS they see it will improve the breed health wise.
> You, my friend, are NOT a great breeder.
> THIS is a great breeder! http://www.brittonfarmsdobermans.com/index.html


here here!
I doubt he health tests, which is unfortunate given the serious health issues bullies can have. Charging a lot of money for a dog means nothing except that someone out there is willing to pay it. Most reputable breeders barely break even on their litters, it isnt about the money.


----------



## FishyFishy89

starrlamia said:


> here here!
> I doubt he health tests, which is unfortunate given the serious health issues bullies can have. Charging a lot of money for a dog means nothing except that someone out there is willing to pay it. Most reputable breeders barely break even on their litters, it isnt about the money.


Your right. His so called "health tests" are likely from some cheap vet that takes the dog for 5 mins and comes back to say "dog is perfect. No flaws!"

I hardly buy from breeders.
Out of all my dogs, only 1 of them was bought from a breeder. All my dogs have been rescues. 
My pug, I found her on the street. Starving, itching like crazy. Nearly bald from all her itching.
My golden/lab mix. She was tossed into a river INSIDE a bag with the rest of her brothers/sisters. I found loving homes for all of her brothers/sisters AND I got them fixed before giving them to their homes.
My hound mixes. Found on our hunting property. Again starving/were clearly abused.
The rest were found in shelters.

I am in full support of rescuing before buying. My doberman is likely to be the only dog I would ever buy from a breeder. Breeders who can prove they are improving the breed are far and few. And my doberman(as some of you may have already read) is proof that his breeder is improving the breed.


----------



## teeneythebetta

FishyFishy89 said:


> Your right. His so called "health tests" are likely from some cheap vet that takes the dog for 5 mins and comes back to say "dog is perfect. No flaws!"
> 
> I hardly buy from breeders.
> Out of all my dogs, only 1 of them was bought from a breeder. All my dogs have been rescues.
> My pug, I found her on the street. Starving, itching like crazy. Nearly bald from all her itching.
> My golden/lab mix. She was tossed into a river INSIDE a bag with the rest of her brothers/sisters. I found loving homes for all of her brothers/sisters AND I got them fixed before giving them to their homes.
> My hound mixes. Found on our hunting property. Again starving/were clearly abused.
> The rest were found in shelters.
> 
> I am in full support of rescuing before buying. My doberman is likely to be the only dog I would ever buy from a breeder. Breeders who can prove they are improving the breed are far and few. And my doberman(as some of you may have already read) is proof that his breeder is improving the breed.


+1 Love what you do


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

Idk know if it cheap or not
So I'll let u take the call
The last two time I was in
Spend 575 in a hour
Another 100 for 15 minute 
If that what u call cheap them I'm cheap
Think what kind of money I'll make
If I've spend 14,000 just to breed
Bully or English usually give u a litter of 2-8
All short nose dog have breathing problem
All small dog have a hard time keeping it temp
Bottom line all breed have there problem
It get more extreme when u keep cross the same line over n over


----------



## teeneythebetta

*sigh* There is no cure for ignorance.. :|


----------



## FishyFishy89

teeneythebetta said:


> *sigh* There is no cure for ignorance.. :|


agreed

price doesn't equal quality


----------



## Curlyfatbottom

If u agree to that
Just hit up any dog pond n pick up any dog
It's seem like that what u want
Each breed have it own price
The more difficult the breed the high the price get
Look at the Tibetan mastiff
One went for 1.5 million
High price tag reduce over population


----------



## teeneythebetta

Dog pond? :dunno:


----------



## FishyFishy89

Curlyfatbottom said:


> If u agree to that
> Just hit up any dog pond n pick up any dog
> It's seem like that what u want
> Each breed have it own price
> The more difficult the breed the high the price get
> Look at the Tibetan mastiff
> One went for 1.5 million
> High price tag reduce over population



Okay
you wanna compare?
Lets take a look at my pug, Emma. She is 3 years old right now. I just took this picture. Perfect conformation. perfect attitude. I've had breeders who wanted to use her to IMPROVE the pug breed. She rarely snorts like your average flat faced dog. She has no health problems since I picked her up.
And lets look where I found her....THE STREETS. A free dog. I've seen excellent dogs like her in the pound as well.








Now....lets take a look at my Golden Lab Retriever. Found her stuffed in a bag with her brothers/sisters. She has since passed at the ripe age of 15 years. Best attitude ever. Conformation was near perfect as well. I personally wouldn't breed her because she was a mix and because she had environmental allergies. Then again, I'm not like you. I would only breed to improve the breed as a whole. And YES allergies are genetic.










Prices do not reduce how many animals are put in shelters. There are MILLIONS of breeders like you who claim this. And yet there are still dogs JUST LIKE YOURS being tossed into shelters/killed.


----------



## teeneythebetta

Oh poUnd. It's hard to see past the terrible grammar >.<

If pounds/shelters have "just any dog" then what about all of the ones you made that are there? Or the ones that were there but were killed? You seem to think your dogs are so special- yet they are right along with all the others.


----------



## FishyFishy89

teeneythebetta said:


> Oh poUnd. It's hard to see past the terrible grammar >.<
> 
> If pounds/shelters have "just any dog" then what about all of the ones you made that are there? Or the ones that were there but were killed? You seem to think your dogs are so special- yet they are right along with all the others.


The reason being that most people see the "ugly" dogs in the shelters is because the BEST ones are taken in a heartbeat. 
And yes, when you have HORRIBLE grammar and spelling, it is hard for anyone online to take you seriously.
Even before you said you were a backyard breeder, I had doubts about you.


----------



## FishyFishy89

To be honest, I bet my pug could beat ALL his dogs in shows. Best in show AND agility!
She has beat border collies, dobermans, sheppards, whippets and greyhounds in agility. I have no doubt her conformation will be flawless in best in show.

Like i said before....price does NOT equal quality.


----------



## GunsABlazin

Fishy- i have seen allot of pugs...but yours is the best looking and most adorable ever.


----------



## FishyFishy89

GunsABlazin said:


> Fishy- i have seen allot of pugs...but yours is the best looking and most adorable ever.


TYVM
I get so many compliments on her. Mostly that she isn't overweight like 90% of pugs are.
I love that betta in your avatar. Such a fierce and unique pose. I love photos of bettas that shows off their best feature(usually their fins).


----------



## MaisyDawgThirteen

I love the pound, you get surprises. I went in looking for a small dog, like a pug or a beagle and came out with our lab/collie/ and maybe pitbull mix.


----------



## GunsABlazin

FishyFishy89 said:


> TYVM
> I get so many compliments on her. Mostly that she isn't overweight like 90% of pugs are.
> I love that betta in your avatar. Such a fierce and unique pose. I love photos of bettas that shows off their best feature(usually their fins).


Thank you  Sadly he passed after my move to roy. He got overly upset and just didnt recover. 
Yes, she isnt fat at all, very cute!


----------



## FishyFishy89

GunsABlazin said:


> Thank you  Sadly he passed after my move to roy. He got overly upset and just didnt recover.
> Yes, she isnt fat at all, very cute!


Awh
I'm so sorry for your loss. I was extremely worried about Spike when we moved. But turns out the move didn't even phase him. He twirled around in his cup showing off his fins and trying to distract my driver xD


----------



## GunsABlazin

FishyFishy89 said:


> Awh
> I'm so sorry for your loss. I was extremely worried about Spike when we moved. But turns out the move didn't even phase him. He twirled around in his cup showing off his fins and trying to distract my driver xD


He was never all that healthy, always nibbleing his fins.


----------



## SweetNightmare

You don't need a BYB to get an amazing dog. My dog is a chow/kelpie/god knows what whose whole litter nearly drowned in a terrible storm when they were born because her parents were strays. (My friend's grandfather took them in.) She's very protective of me, but she's the most amazing dog I could have ever wished for. Coming from the girl who pined for years as a child because she wanted a golden retriever SO BAD and wanted to do dog shows. I'm fine with my beautiful hiens 57, she gets compliments all the time and has NEVER needed a single vet visit, and she's nine.


----------



## FishyFishy89

SweetNightmare said:


> You don't need a BYB to get an amazing dog. My dog is a chow/kelpie/god knows what whose whole litter nearly drowned in a terrible storm when they were born because her parents were strays. (My friend's grandfather took them in.) She's very protective of me, but she's the most amazing dog I could have ever wished for. Coming from the girl who pined for years as a child because she wanted a golden retriever SO BAD and wanted to do dog shows. I'm fine with my beautiful hiens 57, she gets compliments all the time and has NEVER needed a single vet visit, and she's nine.


Right there
Ya don't need a pure bred dog to have the best dog in the world. 90% of the best dogs are crosses and mutts. Most pure breeds I don't have any liking towards. But if it helps anything and proves to help. I'm all for supporting it.


----------



## Myates

This is something that scares me with BSL- misidentification..

Here is the list of the breeds on the picture below.. but most people wouldn't know that there is a difference just from their looks. 
1.American Bulldog 2.American Allaunt 3.Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog 4.Dogo Argentio 5.Presa Canario 6.Ca de Bou 7.American Pit Bull Terrier 8.Cane Corso 9.Boxer 10.American Bandogge 11.Olde English Bulldogge 12.American Bully

Edit- *just* saw the date of the last entry.. sorry for digging up old posts! Woops.. bad me, bad!


----------



## gn3ranger

I can see why people think of pit bulls in an ill manner. I recently had to go outside to scare off a pit bull with a chiwawa in his mouth. Unfortunately the damage was done and I had to call to get the chiwawa's body picked up.

I don't think of them as horrible dogs though my neighbor has a really nice female pit bull blue nose I believe. Sometimes It comes into our yard and it'll just lick you crazy with a big happy smile and waggly tail. As stated before It is indeed not the dogs fault for its behavior.


----------



## teeneythebetta

I recently found an AMAZING video, it's really short, on pit bulls  
It's in my signature, towards the bottom where it says if you're awesome you will watch this video


----------



## Numithebetta

*GOOD FOR YOU FOR POSTING THIS!!! GET THE TRUTH OUT TO THE BLIND! *As a pit bull lover and owner (my baby tigger!) it makes me so angry/sad when people say "they should put all of them down" blah blah blah. It is a broken record I swear I heard it all! But one time I took a trip with him and SOO many people came up started petting him and talking good about the breed! People like you make life worth while!


----------



## ANHEL123

I think all those post about pits never will be old. It just problem that will never resolve unfortunately, since people keep breeding them for many reasons including for fighting. In my town all shelters have so many pits, that get authorized daily 

I love the video. I have a mutt that we adopted. I have no idea what breed she is. She looks like picture #3 on the thread that Myates posted. We took her from the shelter and they found her on the street. 

I am extreme animal lover but at the same time i would never want o be a victim of any dog. Or my dog be that victim . They really dedicated/protective dogs And i do feel bad for the reputation they have. If i would have dog who i know aggressive to people or dogs i would just put muzzle and just be extra careful.


----------



## AngesRadieux

An entire breed of dogs shouldn't be banned because some members of the breed have bitten people. Most of the time, it's the humans who are at fault, anyway. I've met large dogs that are quite sweet and lovable and I've met some that are just plain nasty. The difference? The owners.

Just up the road from me a guy has a couple dangerous dogs--a boxer and a shepherd mix. They almost killed me neighbor's dogs and they killed several rabbits which belonged to another neighbor, went after our rabbits, and went after my neighbor. What does their owner do? He's let the dogs run around the block off the leash. Once a few years back my dad was driving with me and my sister and their owner actually flagged us down, the dog's leash in hand, and asked my dad to slow down because his dog was walking on the side of the road and didn't always come when called. His gate gets left open so the dogs can get out and attack other animals and people. Just a week or so ago, thank goodness school wasn't in session because these two dogs managed to get all the way to the local high school.

But it isn't because they're a boxer or a shepherd mix. My aunt's friend has an absolutely adorable boxer. It's because the guy who owns them is a moron and obviously can't handle his dogs. It's a known fact that they're aggressive and nasty, so he should be making a point of keeping his gate closed and the dogs contained and under control. If he did that, they wouldn't get the chance to attack anyone. Or if they'd been trained and socialized as puppies maybe there wouldn't even be a need.

I don't see the point in punishing responsible owners just because there are jerks like this guy around. Same goes for pit bulls. I haven't met many, but I'm sure it's the same thing where dogs with responsible owners are safe and it's just the idiots that give them a bad reputation.


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## JackisLost

when i was younger i had a siberian husky, i freakin' loved that dog. i remember one day at the dog park a pit bull was playing with a girls hoody sweater and pulling the little girl down, it was pretty sad that the owner just stayed on the bench and watched. i tried to speed on over and stand in between the dog and girl and the pittbull got angry with me and it was a pretty scary scene when my dog sped on over to protect me too. it ended with me holding my dog's harness yelling for the owner to retain his dog and me attempting to scare and kick the dog away. i don't hate on the breed of pittbull, but it did make me think about how dog's personality's amplify the owners. my neighbor has 2 very large pittbulls, and they never cross their sidewalk even unsupervised. it amazed me how smart and trained those two dogs are, and they're still our neighbors.


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## teeneythebetta

AngesRadieux said:


> An entire breed of dogs shouldn't be banned because some members of the breed have bitten people. Most of the time, it's the humans who are at fault, anyway. I've met large dogs that are quite sweet and lovable and I've met some that are just plain nasty. The difference? The owners.
> 
> Just up the road from me a guy has a couple dangerous dogs--a boxer and a shepherd mix. They almost killed me neighbor's dogs and they killed several rabbits which belonged to another neighbor, went after our rabbits, and went after my neighbor. What does their owner do? He's let the dogs run around the block off the leash. Once a few years back my dad was driving with me and my sister and their owner actually flagged us down, the dog's leash in hand, and asked my dad to slow down because his dog was walking on the side of the road and didn't always come when called. His gate gets left open so the dogs can get out and attack other animals and people. Just a week or so ago, thank goodness school wasn't in session because these two dogs managed to get all the way to the local high school.
> 
> But it isn't because they're a boxer or a shepherd mix. My aunt's friend has an absolutely adorable boxer. It's because the guy who owns them is a moron and obviously can't handle his dogs. It's a known fact that they're aggressive and nasty, so he should be making a point of keeping his gate closed and the dogs contained and under control. If he did that, they wouldn't get the chance to attack anyone. Or if they'd been trained and socialized as puppies maybe there wouldn't even be a need.
> 
> I don't see the point in punishing responsible owners just because there are jerks like this guy around. Same goes for pit bulls. I haven't met many, but I'm sure it's the same thing where dogs with responsible owners are safe and it's just the idiots that give them a bad reputation.


Too bad you can't call animal control. That's awful.
Some people near me like to let their small dogs run free, almost getting hit by cars, another one I approached (and talked in a high pitch voice to make myself seem friendly) and he bit me! Yeah it didn't really hurt but he still bit me!


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## AngesRadieux

teeneythebetta said:


> Too bad you can't call animal control. That's awful.
> Some people near me like to let their small dogs run free, almost getting hit by cars, another one I approached (and talked in a high pitch voice to make myself seem friendly) and he bit me! Yeah it didn't really hurt but he still bit me!


We have. My neighbor sued him. This last time we called the police and he got two court summons, one for each dog that got loose. But when my mom was talking to the police officer, his comment was, "I know the individual and he just doesn't care." So he'll pay off whatever fines come from the summons and then forget about it. The guy's loaded, so the fines aren't much of an issue.

Like I said, this is a prime example of the human being the problem rather than the dogs. Personally, I want to at least see those animals confiscated and rehomed to someone who can handle them, but for some reason animal control never takes away the dogs even though they have actually bitten people before. But if he made sure that they couldn't get out, kept them on a short leash, and put a muzzle on them when other people were around like a responsible owner we wouldn't have a problem.

Forget banning dogs. Let's start banning people from owning dogs.


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## starrlamia

ignore me i think i misread


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## Newbettamommy13

I for one am with you all the way! You know what BSL is? It's just a stupid law run on nothing but myths and discrimination! They'll even tell you of their "locking jaws" that is a lie because no breed of dog has that. I Love pitbulls and have a VERY strong passion for them. If my mom allowed me to have a dog, I would have a pitbull. It's really sad to see how many people are willing to let them all die without knowing the truth. That's like someone coming and taking someone's child away. It's cruel and inhumane! Pitbulls for the win! Oh by the way, if you didn't know already, there is a truly amazing film (made in 2010) called "Beyond the myth" It's a documentary about the truth about this kind gentle breed and the ineffectiveness of BSL. I HIGHLY recommend it for ALL dog lovers! Especially, but not only, pitbull owners!


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## Granberry

Newbettamommy13 said:


> I for one am with you all the way! You know what BSL is? It's just a stupid law run on nothing but myths and discrimination! They'll even tell you of their "locking jaws" that is a lie because no breed of dog has that. I Love pitbulls and have a VERY strong passion for them. If my mom allowed me to have a dog, I would have a pitbull. It's really sad to see how many people are willing to let them all die without knowing the truth. That's like someone coming and taking someone's child away. It's cruel and inhumane! Pitbulls for the win! Oh by the way, if you didn't know already, there is a truly amazing film (made in 2010) called "Beyond the myth" It's a documentary about the truth about this kind gentle breed and the ineffectiveness of BSL. I HIGHLY recommend it for ALL dog lovers! Especially, but not only, pitbull owners!


You know, back in the day when Smallpox ran the earth, killing women, elderly and others alike, there were probably people saying, "It's probably the human's fault! They don't train their kids to wash their linens or hands. My daughter's friend has smallpox, and she is so sweet that we let them cuddle! After all other pox diseases kill children - chicken pox, cox pox, why pick on the smallpox? 

IT's ridiculous. There are millions of homeless pets who would beg for a home...pet's that haven't been bred to be aggessive (check the AKC standard if you don't think that's true) Save a better dog.They will love you forever for tl


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## Kuronue

I've never met a mean pit bull. They've all been hams.

Wagging tails, big smiling face, and snuggly.

May not be my first choice in dogs to own, but I certainly wouldn't pass one up if I had the means :3

I don't understand how someone can hate based on breed. That's like hating someone for having blue eyes.


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## veggiegirl

I can understand Pitbull's being banned in places, it is not that they are a generally nasty dog, I am sure they can be as friendly as any other dog but the problem is that they were bred to fight and so can be naturally aggressive, they are killers and I think the worse thing is that they are known for being unpredictable. 

What makes the situation worse is that irresponsible dog owners are usually drawn to the breed just because of the dogs reputation they think that owning one will make them look tough. Trouble is these people lets their dogs wander and attack/harass other people and animals and let them breed.

I would never say that I hate any animal but I can understand why control measures need to be strict, I have had several encounters with the breed over the years and none of them was a positive experience......


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## teeneythebetta

veggiegirl said:


> I can understand Pitbull's being banned in places, it is not that they are a generally nasty dog, I am sure they can be as friendly as any other dog but the problem is that they were bred to fight and so can be naturally aggressive, they are killers and I think the worse thing is that they are known for being unpredictable.
> 
> What makes the situation worse is that irresponsible dog owners are usually drawn to the breed just because of the dogs reputation they think that owning one will make them look tough. Trouble is these people lets their dogs wander and attack/harass other people and animals and let them breed.
> 
> I would never say that I hate any animal but I can understand why control measures need to be strict, I have had several encounters with the breed over the years and none of them was a positive experience......


The only thing is that they were bred to be DOG aggressive, and bred to be human friendly, family pets... Dogs aren't unpredictable, it's a matter of who can read the warning signs..


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## FishyFishy89

veggiegirl said:


> I can understand Pitbull's being banned in places, it is not that they are a generally nasty dog, I am sure they can be as friendly as any other dog but the problem is that they were bred to fight and so can be naturally aggressive, they are killers and I think the worse thing is that they are known for being unpredictable.
> 
> What makes the situation worse is that irresponsible dog owners are usually drawn to the breed just because of the dogs reputation they think that owning one will make them look tough. Trouble is these people lets their dogs wander and attack/harass other people and animals and let them breed.
> 
> I would never say that I hate any animal but I can understand why control measures need to be strict, I have had several encounters with the breed over the years and none of them was a positive experience......


They can be bred for aggressiveness, but it's the OWNERS that make a difference. I've seen several fighting pit bulls rehabbed into the best dogs ever. Maybe it's your area, but get out more often and meet more pitties. I've had both good and bad experiences with ALL breeds of dogs. Heck! the 1st and only dog to bite me was a Shih-Tzu! And it was my fault because I didn't heed her body language.


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## Perry the platypus

I love every breed of dog no matter what. My heart will blow up if anyone talks bad about dogs.


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## Little Leaf

Perry the platypus said:


> I love every breed of dog no matter what. My heart will blow up if anyone talks bad about dogs.


Me too. I can't believe people would do this! it's like... making lies about... a certain family.


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## Perry the platypus

I know...


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## Little Leaf

I love animals too much. I'd rather slap myself for a whole year nonstop other than see pitbulls get this kind of treatment! people can be so mean sometimes... hmph.


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## Granberry

Perry, how do you feel about one-armed 3-year olds? Because I know one you could talk to about your love for allllll animals, presumblably including the 3 who tore his other arm off when he put it through a hole in the fence to pet the nice pit bull.

Guys, lions don't make nice pets. Tigers don't make nice pets. They're strong, they're unpredictable. They hurt humans. Geez, use a little common sense.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> Perry, how do you feel about one-armed 3-year olds? Because I know one you could talk to about your love for allllll animals, presumblably including the 3 who tore his other arm off when he put it through a hole in the fence to pet the nice pit bull.
> 
> Guys, lions don't make nice pets. Tigers don't make nice pets. They're strong, they're unpredictable. They hurt humans. Geez, use a little common sense.


seriously? SERIOUSLY?? You're going to compare LIONS AND TIGERS to dogs!! And FYI: that's the parent's fault for not watching their children. I doubt the child personally knew the dogs next door. Also, you don't reach through a fence to pet ANY animal. Especially a dog. Some dogs are trained guard dogs and can be trained to the point that it doesn't matter if they know you. If you're not entering the property with their owner, you're not allowed in there. And Lastly, a 3 year old wouldn't comprehend such a conversation. They'd only comprehend a dog hurt them. Not any particular dog(cept the dog they saw attacked them).


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## Granberry

I learned long ago that there are people who are so ill informed that compromise is impossible. The only solution is to legislature around them. And that's why BSL will continue to win...because it is impossible to argue with stupid. The only winning move is to ignore them and legislate around them. Most of them live in trailers and don't vote anyway.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> I learned long ago that there are people who are so ill informed that compromise is impossible. The only solution is to legislature around them. And that's why BSL will continue to win...because it is impossible to argue with stupid. The only winning move is to ignore them and legislate around them. Most of them live in trailers and don't vote anyway.


Wow
Aren't you an ignorant person. Fact: most of us don't live in trailers.(not that where you live even matters!) Fact: most of us vote. Fact: most of us actually CARE about animals and are willing to FIGHT and be their voice for them. FACT: DOGS ARE NOT UNPREDICTABLE. They have such a thing as body language and knowing it is a must. Animals are not unpredictable. They all speak with their body. If you refuse to understand their body language, that's your fault. And lastly, criminals do NOT follow laws. So NO law is going to get rid of anything! It's the law to wear your seat belt and yet people still don't.


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## Skyewillow

Granberry said:


> I learned long ago that there are people who are so ill informed that compromise is impossible. The only solution is to legislature around them. And that's why BSL will continue to win...because it is impossible to argue with stupid. The only winning move is to ignore them and legislate around them. Most of them live in trailers and don't vote anyway.


So all people who live in trailers are classless criminals? That's the kind of ignorant social casting that makes everyone involved look bad. I'm sure everyone is a perfect angel where you live, no crime, no pollution, nothing at all, then? I'd also like to add that 90% of trailer courts don't allow power breeds like boxers, pits, rotts, or german shepherds.

I've had personal experiences with pit bulls, good and bad, as well as many other breeds. And while some of it IS genetic, most of it is the owner's fault.

I've also owned a pit mix, the only issue that I had with her was that her previous owners didn't train her, or their toddler to stay off of the dog, and so the dog didn't like the baby. I had to try to completely retrain her to be a member of my family, and our pack (I had 3 other dogs). Like most terriers and terrier mixes, she was stubborn.

I think she ended up at a shelter though, because my ex took her with him when we broke up, and he couldn't control her. He'd kept encouraging her to "attack", and she scared a neighbor so bad she wouldn't get out of the car.

HOWEVER, when I had her in line, she was the friendliest lump of grins and snuggles you would've ever met.

It's not always Nature, more often than not, it's nurture.

Also, I agree with Fishfriend, those were bad parents for not teaching their child better. I have a toddler too, and if there was a hole in my fence, you'd best bet I'd find a way to patch it up, whether there were dogs on the other side or not. Also, my son doesn't play outside unattended, nor is he allowed to venture too far away from me, in our own yard or not, because you never know what could happen.


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## Viva

I recently saw the documentary about how Pitbulls are being banned and euthanized in certain places around the US. I mean they literally came and confiscated any innocent dog that even resembled a pitbull from innocent people and many were euthanized as a result. That is just sick. 

How can we, AS AMERICANS, let this happen to our own people? It is pure lunacy and it just shows you how blind people really are from the truth. When all you do is listen to the statistics that any media station spews out of course you're going to believe that pit bulls are dangerous and blood-thirsty. They're animals. Every single animal on the planet is dangerous, but luckily humans have the advanced capability of knowing how to control such beasts. If you don't know how to control a large dog, or have the capability of caring for one and raising it to be a normal sociable being, then you should not have a dog. Targeting a breed of dog for human's mistakes is not fixing anything, and what they're trying to "fix" is completely exaggerated anyways. 

/rant


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## veggiegirl

As to the three year old who had his arm torn off by pitbulls........ If the child was in his home yard then I feel it is the Pitbulls owner at fault, people have a right to be safe in their own home and should not have to put up with having a dangerous dog next door. 

If the child was walking along a path/up a street or whatever and put their arm through a random persons fence then it is clearly the parents fault for not watching their children closely enough.

Thats my opinion anyway......


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## trilobite

Granberry said:


> Perry, how do you feel about one-armed 3-year olds? Because I know one you could talk to about your love for allllll animals, presumblably including the 3 who tore his other arm off when he put it through a hole in the fence to pet the nice pit bull.
> 
> Guys, lions don't make nice pets. Tigers don't make nice pets. They're strong, they're unpredictable. They hurt humans. Geez, use a little common sense.


Tiers and lions arent domestic. Dogs have co evolved to live with us. 
But I agree that if a dog is so poorly bred and trained that it bites a humans arm off the yeah, put it down. 
I love pit bulls, such cute faces, but people need to remember that if you are going to get a dog bred for hundreds of years specifically for dog aggression (not human aggression) and expect a dog with such high drives to behave like a low energy lazy couch dog or something then no, you shouldnt own one. 
Since these dogs are so mass produced and temperament, stability and suitability of the owners is often completely overlooked, the chances of duds popping up is sooo much higher. 

Pit bulls are not "just like any other dog" just like border collies arent "just like any dog". And people who think they are shouldnt own them. Theres a reason we have breeds, they do different things. Dont get angry or surprised when a dog bred specifically for dog aggression kills a dog, just like Im not going to get surprised when a dog specifically bred for herding sheep herds some sheep. 

Dont kill a dog for animal aggression, just be a responsible owner and prevent the dog from getting into trouble. However if the dog has human aggression, kill it ASAP. 

Theres no need for HA pit bulls when theres more than enough good ones around


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## FishyFishy89

veggiegirl said:


> As to the three year old who had his arm torn off by pitbulls........ If the child was in his home yard then I feel it is the Pitbulls owner at fault, people have a right to be safe in their own home and should not have to put up with having a dangerous dog next door.
> 
> If the child was walking along a path/up a street or whatever and put their arm through a random persons fence then it is clearly the parents fault for not watching their children closely enough.
> 
> Thats my opinion anyway......


Actually, once your body part crosses someone's fence line, it becomes YOUR fault. Once the child YOU are watching crosses the fence line of someone's property, it becomes the watcher's fault.

The dog would clearly be in the right of protecting his owner's property. If you think the dog wasn't in the right, then you aren't in the right to defend yourself in your home. It's the same concept.


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## Granberry

And if you equate a dog's rights with a child's rights, then you and I have nothing in common.


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## trilobite

There should be no excuse for a dog that bites humans regardless of breed. Any dog unstable enough to attack a human should be put down


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> And if you equate a dog's rights with a child's rights, then you and I have nothing in common.


EXACTLY! Because you refuse to understand dogs. Dogs are used as home defense. They are also used as family members and are treated as such. But don't sit there and bagger people who love animals and treat them as family members.

Animals have feelings too, they understand pain and love the same way a child understands pain and love.


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## FishyFishy89

trilobite said:


> There should be no excuse for a dog that bites humans regardless of breed. Any dog unstable enough to attack a human should be put down


And any human who crosses someone's property line without consent of the property's owner deserves any punishment that comes with it.


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## trilobite

A dogs duty is to warn the owner of intrusion. Not maul some kid. Regardless of whos property it was on. The fact that this dog pulled off an arm is unacceptable, a dog can protect property without going to extreme actions


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## FishyFishy89

You don't know what happened. The dog likely gave several barking warnings. When there isn't a response the dog acts. BTW: dogs always give warning before attacking. Barking isn't the only warning they have.

BTW: it doesn't take much to pull an arm out of the socket. The child could of been yanking their arm back.


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## FishyFishy89

If a burglar came into my home, I don't expect my dog to just bark his head off as the guy is grabbing items in my house! I expect my dog to act FOR me when I'm not there to respond. Be it a child I told to not touch my dog several times or a burglar stealing from me.


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## trilobite

Well yeah, Id yank my arm back too if I had a dog mauling it.
Dogs dont always give warnings. A dog in prey drive is going to stay silent. There is a complete difference between warning and mauling, the dog was completely out of place to maul a child, there is no question. 
Hundreds of other dogs are perfectly able to tolerate an arm sticking through a fence or stick to alert barking. Why should this dog be an exception just because it is a pit bull? 
If anything the pitbull people shouldnt be making excuses for it and just flat out say "that was a bad dog, thankfully not all are like that."Making excuses for a dog who intended to kill a human leaves room for the Joe Public to think this is common behaviour in the breed.


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## trilobite

So you would allow your dog to attack a child? 
If a burglar came into my house I would want my dog to act aggressive ie, stare, bark, growl and generally intimidate the person. That would be more than enough to deter a thief. I would never allow my dog to sink its teeth into someone especially if I wont be able to call him off, it would just add to another dog related death or mauling


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## FishyFishy89

trilobite said:


> Well yeah, Id yank my arm back too if I had a dog mauling it.
> Dogs dont always give warnings. A dog in prey drive is going to stay silent. There is a complete difference between warning and mauling, the dog was completely out of place to maul a child, there is no question.
> Hundreds of other dogs are perfectly able to tolerate an arm sticking through a fence or stick to alert barking. Why should this dog be an exception just because it is a pit bull?
> If anything the pitbull people shouldnt be making excuses for it and just flat out say "that was a bad dog, thankfully not all are like that."Making excuses for a dog who intended to kill a human leaves room for the Joe Public to think this is common behaviour in the breed.


Oh that's just bull crap. Dogs *always *give warnings. Barking isn't their only warning. You watch their body language. The same goes for a person's body language. When they're mad or upset they're stiff and uneasy. And the dog isn't an "exception" because it was a pit bull. FYI: you don't know if it really was a pit bull. Passing stories always change. It could of been a mix that looked like a pit bull. Just because it looks like a pit bull doesn't mean it is a pit bull.

I advise you to do more research on dog behavior.


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## popcorndeer

i love pit bulls i have a pit bull puppy his name is opie and he thinks he is one of thoes little white dogs the you put in a bag and take avery where with you lol

he is soo cute


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## FishyFishy89

trilobite said:


> So you would allow your dog to attack a child?
> If a burglar came into my house I would want my dog to act aggressive ie, stare, bark, growl and generally intimidate the person. That would be more than enough to deter a thief. I would never allow my dog to sink its teeth into someone especially if I wont be able to call him off, it would just add to another dog related death or mauling


That always isn't enough to intimidate. That wasn't enough for the man who busted into my home years ago. He still felt it was okay to step into my home when a DOBERMAN PINSCHER was at the door frame snarling, barking, growling and tossing slobber at him. The second he stepped in the door way my doberman took hold of his arm and shook the fudge outta him. Which BTW is what guard dogs are trained to do. Just the arm shaking is enough to pull an arm out of the socket.

And yes, if I told a child SEVERAL times to not touch my dog, my dog has the right to bite a child who crossed the boundary line that divides my property from their parents property. There's a reason why I tell people to not touch my dogs.


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## trilobite

The behaviour we are talking about is the dog alert barking, not body language, not insecure behaviour, alert barking. You said he most likely barked, he might have but he might have just as easily been in prey mode and not barked. Yes if you watch them you will see the body language thats common sense, but the kid obviously did not. 
At the end of the day an unstable, poorly trained dog pulled an arm off a child. Normal dogs dont do that Im afraid.

I never said the pit bull was an exception, Im saying its giving pit bulls more of a bad reputation if the pit bull lovers are defending this dog. I know that it might not be a pure pit bull but to Joe Public if it has short fur and a square face its a pit bull.

If I had a child that I didnt want touching my dog I would be responsible and remove the dog from the situation so my dog doesnt need to bite and the kid doesnt need to get bitten. But then again I wouldnt have a dog that wants to bite kids.


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## FishyFishy89

Guard dogs are comfortable with their circle of people. It takes a while for a new person to come into the circle. If the new person cannot respect that, then they don't belong in my circle of friends. And you obviously have failed to see the point here.

It doesn't take a whole lot of pull an arm out of it's socket. Guard dog's are trained to grab hold, yank and shake the invader's arm. The dog doesn't discriminate invaders. It just knows "you're not with my owner, you're invading without permission. I need to do my duty. You're not responding to my body language? Okay I'm going to start barking. Still not responding to my barking!? Now I'm going to bite."

Simple as that. And YES the child doesn't know doggie body language. But the child parent SHOULD BE WATCHING THEM. It's the parents' fault. Like I said, maybe you should do some more research in dog behavior and possibly look into guard dog behavior. Dogs don't discriminate invaders. Period. And if a dog attacks a child invading his property, then the parent needs to be watching their child more carefully and possibly even teaching their child to not invade someone's property without that person's permission.


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## trilobite

Your points are irrelevant, we arent talking about your "circle of friends" we are talking about a human aggressive dog that was put in a situation where it could attack humans. Any way if you want to get fussy about guard dogs then we can go on to say how pit bulls arent guardian breeds, they are game bred terriers, but that also is irrelevant.

No, you see good guard dogs are trained to protect, attack and release on command, not out of their own free will. 
So this dog you say was trained to attack whenever an arm poked through the fence. Hah! doubt it. The child wasnt waltzing through the yard and into the front door, no, if a dog cant tell the difference between someone threatening the owner and an arm poking through a fence then he dog is poorly trained and unstable. 
I doubt it was even trained, just some punks wanting a pit bull because they are so cool "Haha its so funny when he barks at people walking past! Haha look at him trying to get them through the hole in the fence! Oh pit bull, you are so funny. Lets encourage and laugh at this behavior"

A well wounded and trained guard dog will not attack anything and every thing that pops through the fence. If a dog attacks a child then put it down, there is no place for a dog like that at all


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## FishyFishy89

Wow. Research guard dog behavior. Many of them have a "circle of people" that they're comfortable with. And pit bulls can be trained to be guard dogs. Labradors can be trained to be guard dogs. And no, guard dogs guard on their own free will as well. If they didn't, then homes with dogs would be broken into more often.


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## trilobite

I think you are confusing guarding with human aggression. Its not the same thing. Guard dogs guard. Human aggressive dogs dogs attack humans for no reason. If you have a dog thats trained to attack humans you need to take extra precautions to ensure no one gets bitten. Are you suggesting this dog was trained to bite through a fence?
Normal dogs will bark and growl at an intruder, abnormal dogs will attack anything and everything.


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## FishyFishy89

The dog attacked the child because it invaded through the fence. There for it was protecting it's home.


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## trilobite

It had no reason to attack unless the owner or the dog itself was under threat. Unprovoked/extreme attacks=poor nerve=bad breeding=bad dog.


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## Granberry

Trilobite, I have had this conversation until I'm blue in the face. It won't work. They'll still say "Well, that 3 year old in his own yard shouldn't have put his hand through the fence....he should have recognized body language". 

There are 2 solutions:
1. Attack the breed clubs. The AKC sets standards emphasizing trait we want to keep in dogs and penalizing traits that we don't. That's why black pugs shouldn't have white spots, Rottweilers must be strictlly obedient....and that's why it's okay for pit bull terriers to demonstrate aggressiveness in the ring. They like that. The want you to breed to that. Enough pressure on them, and perhaps that aggressive tendency can be bred out.

2. Approach it like the Rottweiler owners do. Twenty years ago, if you had an aggressive rot, you were an outcast. You were told to put that sucker down adn get another one. People were disgusted with the horror stories of their breed, so inead they changed the breed, instituted temperament testsing. Now, you don't hear about mean rottweilers very often. 

But, as my grandmother used to say, if you wrestle with a pig in the mud, pretty soon you're both dirty, but the pig is enjoying it.


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## veggiegirl

If the child was in it's own backyard then as far as I am concerned the dog had no right to attack, the parents of the child have a right to feel safe in their own home! The child has a right to play in it's backyard, the parents should not have to be terrified that in a split second if they turn their back their child will be attacked! The owners of the dog have a responsibility if they know the animal is aggressive to ensure it is not allowed in a situation where it can attack innocent children! or people or pets for that matter!!!!

The owners knowing the dog is so aggressive should have either blocked up the holes in the fence or restricted the animals access to the area. It is their animal that is causing the problem so ensuring it cannot harm others is their responsibility. Defending a pit bull that attacks a child for no good reason is just confirming peoples suspicion that these dogs are aggressive and not to be trusted because it suggests that this is common behavior for the breed which just feeds their bad reputation.


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## FishyFishy89

The child crossed the fence line WITHOUT the owner. To the dog, that is deemed a threat.


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## trilobite

Haha its like an endless circle

I agree that pit bull lovers are the ones breeding the dogs, pit bull lovers are buying the dogs, pit bull lovers are defending dogs and its the pit bull lovers that need to do something about the "pit bull problem" 

Sitting around saying "oh but it was their fault, and their fault. The dog is innocent" wont change a single thing. 
Stop breeding them, breed only ones who pass temperament tests and are a champion of some sort. Then dont let any old numpty buy one, and neuter the ones you buy. Pit bulls arent for just any person, they are a high drive, game bred, muscular athlete with high potential for dog aggression and animal aggression. 

In my opinion dog aggression in pit bulls is fine, they were selected for it and its what made them the dog they are today. The owners just need to be a bit smarter about owning and managing them, like dont take one to a dog park. 

Human aggression in any breed especially pit bulls because of their bad reputation should not be tolerated at all. An HA dog should be put down ASAP.


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## trilobite

FishyFishy89 said:


> The child crossed the fence line WITHOUT the owner. To the dog, that is deemed a threat.


As I said earlier, a dog that deems everything as a threat and acts extremely is an unstable dog with bad nerves. 99% of dogs can handle an arm poking through a fence


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## veggiegirl

That does not mean it is okay for the dog to go around ripping children's arms off! If someone had actually entered the yard or someone was trying to break in through a door or window that would be different......the dog would have a right to defend it's territory but even then it should not attack without a command from it's owner. No matter how you look at this whether or not the dog 'gave a warning' it is still a dangerous animal that should not have been in a situation where it could attack the child.


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## eatmice2010

I see it as a wrong on both behalves!!

Were where the parents of the three year old, he/she shouldn't have been left alone?

And the parents of the dog should have associated the dog with young kids.


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## FishyFishy89

trilobite said:


> As I said earlier, a dog that deems everything as a threat and acts extremely is an unstable dog with bad nerves. 99% of dogs can handle an arm poking through a fence


That "99% of dogs"(which really isn't 99% of dogs) aren't trained guard dogs.


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## FishyFishy89

veggiegirl said:


> That does not mean it is okay for the dog to go around ripping children's arms off! If someone had actually entered the yard or someone was trying to break in through a door or window that would be different......the dog would have a right to defend it's territory but even then it should not attack without a command from it's owner. No matter how you look at this whether or not the dog 'gave a warning' it is still a dangerous animal that should not have been in a situation where it could attack the child.


guard dogs are trained to grab, yank and shake arms or legs of invaders. So yes, it is okay for the dog to yank around an intruder's arms or legs.


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## registereduser

FishyFishy89 said:


> That "99% of dogs"(which really isn't 99% of dogs) aren't trained guard dogs.


Do you have any proof that this particular pitbull was a trained guard dog?


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## FishyFishy89

registereduser said:


> Do you have any proof that this particular pitbull was a trained guard dog?


I didn't say it was. I was giving a possible reason as to why the dog may have attacked the child.


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## veggiegirl

Just because it is a trained guard dog does not mean it has the right to threaten public safety and for all you know the dog in question may not even be a trained guard dog.


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## FishyFishy89

A trained guard dog in his own home isn't a treat for public safety.


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## registereduser

FishyFishy89 said:


> A trained guard dog in his own home isn't a treat for public safety.


no treat at all :lol:


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## eatmice2010

I'm so confused, I would like to join in this debate but i have no clue whats going on.


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## veggiegirl

Well if the dog in question was a trained guard dog then it obviously was a threat to public safety! The dog was in it's own home and the child is a member of the public!!!!


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## registereduser

eatmice2010 said:


> I'm so confused, I would like to join in this debate but i have no clue whats going on.


Don't worry, it's over. The horse is dead, no need to beat it anymore.


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## Granberry

Sorry, I can't find the official news story without spending more than 5 minutes, but here are a couple: 

Video link removed

In light of that last citation, it cracks me up that this thread is titled "hated for no reason". Count the number of buried children, and that gives me a reason. Maybe not FishyFishy since she believes 3-year-olds shouldn't be able to play in their own back yards unless they have a thorough understanding of dogs they cannot even see through their own fence, but hey, maybe the rest of us care.

But when you get worked up about this, folks, rest easy. We're working on the laws, and we will get them passed. Just like the UK did, just like all sensible places do. It's just a short matter of time. Besides, having been married to a police officer who loves dogs, I trust them to do what has to be done sometimes. They're experts at "body language".


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## Freyja

First off Oklahoma...not a sensible place...the US definitely not a sensible country...banning a breed is about as effective as the proposed bans on high capacity cartridges. Instead of outright banning, how about putting your efforts into education, weeding out the bad sort, and working with owners, breeders, clubs to stop breeding for aggression and breed for temperament. Because if we are banning and putting down human aggressive dogs, there are going to be a lot of toy breeds that will suffer heavy losses. Damn chihuahuas!


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## SnowySurface

Granberry said:


> Sorry, I can't find the official news story without spending more than 5 minutes, but here are a couple:
> 
> Video links removed
> 
> In light of that last citation, it cracks me up that this thread is titled "hated for no reason". Count the number of buried children, and that gives me a reason. Maybe not FishyFishy since she believes 3-year-olds shouldn't be able to play in their own back yards unless they have a thorough understanding of dogs they cannot even see through their own fence, but hey, maybe the rest of us care.
> 
> But when you get worked up about this, folks, rest easy. We're working on the laws, and we will get them passed. Just like the UK did, just like all sensible places do. It's just a short matter of time. Besides, having been married to a police officer who loves dogs, I trust them to do what has to be done sometimes. They're experts at "body language".
> 
> Am I the only one who wants to blame the owner for not fixing the hole in the fence? Any one who owns a Pit should know that any fence used to house the dog has to be 100% secure. If the fence didn't have a hole in it, this wouldn't have happened.
> 
> I also agree that more laws won't help because of the illegal activities and ignorance that leads to most pit bull problems. The people owning pit bulls illegally for illegal dog fights will ignore new laws just like they are ignoring old laws. The people who don't know current pit bull laws won't bother to learn the new pit bull laws. Stricture laws will only make it harder for the good pit bull owners.
> 
> All I see is a pit bull owner who was too lazy to fix a fence that should have been 100% secure in the sense that the dog can't dig out under neath, can't jump over it, and can't go through. If you have a pit bull you can't have a fence that is compromised even if the hole is barely bigger than a 3 year old's arm. If more pit owners were more responsible, arguements like this wouldn't happen. Articles like the ones in the qouted text wouldn't be printed.
> 
> More people need to own pit bulls properly (in accordance with current laws) or not own them at all.


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## Oldfishlady

All dogs can bite...its the degree of damage from a dog bite that can differ between different breeds of dogs.

What would you rather be bitten by...a toy breed or a pit bull....

The day when you have children or work in an ER when a child is brought into the ER half eaten by a pit bull and you still wish to defend the rights of a pit bull over the rights of a child...well...I will keep that comment to myself...But, It is a sad day.....when we blame the child and defend a dog regardless.

Had the owner of the pit bulls in the case of the 3 years old child-Followed the law-the child would still have his arm today. But the pit bull owner was breaking the law by keeping more than 2 pit bulls, he failed to have the 50 thousand dollar insurance, had ill repaired containment for the pit bulls or proper containment for the pit bulls.....It was the pit bull owner responsibility-Not the 3yr old or his parents responsibility and the 3yr old is who paid the price for the irresponsible pit bull owner.


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## FishyFishy89

I read the article, which BTW it is possibly not even the exact story as there are several stories of children getting attacked by "pit bulls", in that article both parties at at fault. The dog owner didn't fix his fence and the child's parents weren't keeping a watchful eye over the child.

And seriously Granberry, you obviously don't spend time around animals. Go back into history and look up dog attacks, 1st it was the chow chow, then it was the german sheppard, the doberman, the rottweiler, and now the pit bull. WHEN are people going to put the blame on themselves??? NEVER! Because people only care about money and they sit there and breed and breed and breed these animals!!! Never bothering to pay attention to temperament, health and stability. The REAL pit bull was bred as a hunting dog much like the Labrador and the terrier breeds are. The dogs aren't at fault, the people who refuse to see what they're doing wrong are. And you are also one of the people who are doing wrong. You're refusing to educate yourself properly about dogs.

The cop, he had a right to shoot that dog. BUT SERIOUSLY!!! PUT THE DAMN THING OUT OF IT'S MISERY!!! DON'T LET IT LAY THERE CRYING BECAUSE IT'S OWNER WAS A DUMB IDIOT AND DIDN'T KEEP HIM ON A LEASH! And BTW, that video is WWWAAAYYYY to violent for this forum. The dog was crying in pain and the cop was too dumb to do anything but protect himself and then stand there and go "duh the dog is crying, what do i do?" You should of never posted that video. You are someone who doesn't care about dogs. I'm fairly certain you were sitting there saying "yeah! let that dog cry!!" Because it's clearly the dog's fault and not his dumb owners. That video really peed me off. It's dumb idiots like that owner and the cop(for letting the dog suffer) that tick me off. 


If you have a dog, your home should be secure. My best friend's rat terrier was always escaping the backyard. You know what her mom did? She dug several feet below her fence line and lined those areas with bricks and she also maintains maintenance on the fence. THAT is a responsible dog owner. She didn't go out and micro chip that dog or buy into some dumb company that tracks the dog when he escapes. Nope. She found a way to keep him IN. If you cannot keep in your dog, you shouldn't be having him.


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## acitydweller

Its not so much the breed and dot as it is the type of people who keep them...


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## Oldfishlady

FishyFishy89 said:


> I read the article, which BTW it is possibly not even the exact story as there are several stories of children getting attacked by "pit bulls", in that article both parties at at fault. The dog owner didn't fix his fence and the child's parents weren't keeping a watchful eye over the child.


Would you agree that a person should have a reasonable expectation of safety in the confines of their own backyard. Isn't the enclosed backyard the safe haven for our children. 

I am sure your children are allowed to play outside in their yard without you hovering over them or play in their room unattended. You being a parent should understand that you can't keep an eye on your child all the time within reason of course. Being a parent we understand that anything can happen in a split second-regardless if we are standing there or not.

I live in Oklahoma and not far from where this incident took place and have followed it closely.

The inclosed backyard of this little boy would have been safe-had the owner of the pit bulls been responsible and followed the laws.


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## FishyFishy89

No. I understand things can happen in a spilt second. Which is why I would stand or sit on my porch and watch my children play(when they are young). In their room I maybe more comfortable leaving them for a few seconds. But never outside. Especially if I know the next door neighbor has dogs. In fact, I wouldn't have chain link fences in my yard. I would have a privacy fence and my husband would monitor it often for issues that need to be addressed. Once they're older and have proven they think the way I've taught them to, they will have the privilege to play by themselves with certain check ups.

My in laws live in an excellent community. A community in which it is older couples, first time home owners or families that inherited homes from their parents or grandparents. 1 next door neighbor has an older chihuahua and the other neighbor has 3 Maltese type dogs.my husband grew up in that house and grew up knowing the chihuahua. He also grew up with the understanding that you don't pet any dog without the owner's permission. He never reached through that fence to pet the dog he grew up with his whole childhood. Why? Because of a few things; 1 he understood that whats on the other fence is not his to touch 2 he understood that to touch anything beyond what is not his, he must ask permission and if told "no" he was not to go behind that person's back and touch it. And if he did, he reached punishment for it. Be it the hot stove or a snappy dog he met on the street. He's been bitten by few dogs in his life, but he doesn't go and say "that dog breed should be banned!!!"


I'm quite certain Grandberry would feel the way I feel about breed banning if I went and said fish tanks of a certain sized should be banned because they pose a health risk to homes. No I don't think that, but it's the same foolish thinking. I feel that breeding SHOULD be controlled and limited to only licensed people. But alas, people still drive vehicles without proper license, so people will still breed without proper license.


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## Viva

Haven't we all learned from my thread (that got deleted) that its ALWAYS the human's fault no matter what. A human is the best communicator on the planet, and therefore has the responsibility of learning the behaviors of the animals they co-exist with. Many people treat their animals as property, just tools to protect their land/livestock. Other people treat them as children, and these are the people that usually have the vicious dogs because they treat them like HUMAN CHILDREN. Not DOG children.


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## FishyFishy89

Viva said:


> Haven't we all learned from my thread (that got deleted) that its ALWAYS the human's fault no matter what. A human is the best communicator on the planet, and therefore has the responsibility of learning the behaviors of the animals they co-exist with. Many people treat their animals as property, just tools to protect their land/livestock. Other people treat them as children, and these are the people that usually have the vicious dogs because they treat them like HUMAN CHILDREN. Not DOG children.


I agree. If we're going to live with animals, we need to be responsible about them. Learn how to read their communication, learn how to behave around them. You cannot spank a dog and expect it to learn(for example) don't chase that cat. They have no concept that a spanking tells them don't do whatever you just did. Alls they know is, "that hurt me. You're aggressive. I'm going to do some behaviors to act on that aggression" these behaviors can range anywhere from calming signals(such as lip licking) to actually biting someone. 

Now, going back to that story about the child. It is possible that the dogs may have been repeatedly abused, will turn human aggressive. They'd likely be stressed out from the aggression from their owners. They don't know that child is harmless. They just know that the human in their life is aggressive. Maybe a hand reaching toward them could make them think that hand is aggressively reaching out to their leash or collar and they may get hurt. And yet again, due to that, it would be the owner's fault for creating such aggressive animals. But, some people will never realize it really is their fault for creating aggressive animals. There can be so many factors to creating an aggressive animal, anywhere from genetics, to stress, to illness, injury and even interaction from other animals or humans.


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## trilobite

We need to be responsible by not breeding, or keeping unstable dogs. Human should never be tolerated in any breed, I dont see why you are adamant that aggression towards humans is fine and normal, and its never the fault of the dog. Im sorry but if a dog chooses to bite a human with intent to kill or maim then the dog is also at fault and should be killed.

I like pit bulls, I hate poorly bred and trained animals. Now if the pit bull lovers actually did something about BSL instead of sulking and whining about it, then maybe they can restore the publics faith in the breed.
Rotts, Dobes and GSDs managed to escape the image due to the owners actually recognizing a problem and doing something about it. A lot of pit bull lovers seem to be more along the lines of "no its the media hype! Its the bad owner! They are just like any other dog!" Just in complete denial that there is a problem which needs to be addressed if they want to save their breed.


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## FishyFishy89

Dogs are NOT naturally aggressive towards humans! What makes them aggressive towards humans is, in fact, humans. If a human being is abusive towards a dog, a dog is eventually going to act out towards the aggression. If a human is consistently breeding human aggressive dogs, it is the human's fault. If the human is ENCOURAGING human aggressive behavior, it is the human's fault. So no, it is never the dog's fault, it is always the human's fault.


Dogs naturally either want to please their human or themselves(depending on the breed). It never suddenly decides it wants to bite a human for no reason. Why it acts aggressive towards humans is how it's handler acts towards the dog or raises the dog.


ETA: the only reason why human aggressive dogs are killed is because there aren't enough people willing to work with human aggressive dogs. Minimal human contact that are strictly positive only contact will help a human aggressive dog become a "human positive" dog. However, this type of rehabilitation can cost a lot of money. Money that our country doesn't even have. So it's just 10xs cheaper to just kill the poor animal. Also some human aggressive dogs are just too far gone that they cannot be rehabilitated so it's only the right thing to put the animal out of it's misery.


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## trilobite

FishyFishy89 said:


> Dogs are NOT naturally aggressive towards humans! What makes them aggressive towards humans is, in fact, humans. If a human being is abusive towards a dog, a dog is eventually going to act out towards the aggression. If a human is consistently breeding human aggressive dogs, it is the human's fault. If the human is ENCOURAGING human aggressive behavior, it is the human's fault. So no, it is never the dog's fault, it is always the human's fault.
> 
> 
> Dogs naturally either want to please their human or themselves(depending on the breed). It never suddenly decides it wants to bite a human for no reason. Why it acts aggressive towards humans is how it's handler acts towards the dog or raises the dog.


Im sorry but we both know that is wrong. You said your self that aggression can be a product of genetics. Yes humans can cause aggressive behaviours, but an unstable dog is purely capable of attacking humans without human influence. Many attacks are in the family home, loving homes who wouldnt raise a hand to the dog.

Remember that dogs are large carnivores with a high territorial instinct. There have been many cases of feral dogs attacking humans. These arent pet dogs and have very little human interaction, so havent been "made aggressive". How about when mastiffs battled gladiators? Just aggressively bred dogs.
There have been many stories about abused and beaten dogs who have been rescued and bounced back to make happy pets. These are good, stable dogs.


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## Granberry

Who freaking cares whose fault it is? Pit bulls are strong. They are bred to be animal aggressive (check the AKC standard), and statistics show that the most LETHAL bites come from pit bull attacks (maltese and chihuahuas may bite more, but they won't kill you) Simplest solution: Ban pit bulls. Doesn't matter if it's their fault or their owner's fault or (ludicrous as it may seem) a parent's fault. Get rid of the pit bulls, fewer children and elderly people die.

Another solution: Treat them like we treat those people who love wild cats, i.e., tigers. In some states, they have to have a special, quite expensive, permit. They have to live in restricted places. They have to have very expensive enclosures which are examined annually at their own expense (it's part of the license). Why? Because even if their sweet, well trained, won't-hurt-a-fly tiger gets loose, it is strong enough to kill someone. And in fact, they have to have a gun handy to do it themselves.

I used to show Chihuahuas (in conformation, not obedience) but I loved watching the obedience trials. You know who was there? Rottweilers, GSDs, Dobermans. Not a pit bull in sight. 

FishyFishy, your love for pit bulls is clouding your judgment. You need to do some serious thinking on this subject. What is best for you may not be best for the world. And you aren't the king of the world who can command all pit bull owners to be responsible. If you could, the problem would be solved. But in this nation, we want our children to be able to walk to school, play in our fenced back yard, go to a friend's house without having to ask what kind of dogs they own. And we WILL have that. It's just a matter of time.


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## FishyFishy89

trilobite said:


> Im sorry but we both know that is wrong. You said your self that aggression can be a product of genetics. Yes humans can cause aggressive behaviours, but an unstable dog is purely capable of attacking humans without human influence. Many attacks are in the family home, loving homes who wouldnt raise a hand to the dog.
> 
> Remember that dogs are large carnivores with a high territorial instinct. There have been many cases of feral dogs attacking humans. These arent pet dogs and have very little human interaction, so havent been "made aggressive". How about when mastiffs battled gladiators? Just aggressively bred dogs.
> There have been many stories about abused and beaten dogs who have been rescued and bounced back to make happy pets. These are good, stable dogs.


Yes and what makes these aggressive genetics? Humans! Dogs are NOT naturally human aggressive, if someone encourages human aggression and then works on a "line" they will make human aggressive dogs. Dogs have little to no territorial instinct. 

I seriously advise both of you(grandberry) to do more research in dog body langauge, dog behavior, genetics and their interaction with humans. You're both seriously uneducated and are refusing to learn. Your sitting there acting like dogs have something against humans. When, in fact, they dont! And Granberry, if you actually do the research, you'll find out that a pit bull's bite is no worse than a labrador. 

And if you ban ANYTHING, what makes you think people won't find out how to get them. They will! Some animals are banned from being owned and yet people still find ways to own them! Banning doesn't fix anything. Lastly, guess what was at the recent dog show Granberry, "pit bulls".

ETA: I'm no "pit bull lover". I am a DOG LOVER. I owned a doberman, a golden lab cross, currently have a pug and am fostering a Cane Corso. I interact with different breeds everyday and do positive reinforcement training with all breeds. In fact, my most recent success has been a dog reactive "pit bull". Granberry, you CANNOT have whatever you want just because you're stomping your feet like a child. There will be people who WILL find ways to get whatever they want. No matter what law or ban is in affect.


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## FishyFishy89

trilobite said:


> Many attacks are in the family home, loving homes who wouldnt raise a hand to the dog..


I'd like you to find solid evidence about that. Find me SOLID evidence that states this dog was never "spanked", it's humans didn't allow children to crawl all over it, it's human respected it's body language that stated "i am uncomfortable with this" and it just randomly decided to attack someone.

Because that never happens. If it does, then it was a result for POOR breeding from greedy HUMANS. Thus going back to the human being at fault!


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## LittleBettaFish

The problem I see when a dog attack happens and it is a pitbull responsible, those who love the breed are quick to jump in saying that maybe the person did something wrong, or maybe the dog that was attacked was barking and jumping around and that provoked the pitbull. 

Killing or seriously maiming a human or another dog (I'm not talking about things like in home female-female aggression here) is not acceptable behaviour for a pet dog. Ever. 

A normal dog should not react to a dog barking at it by tearing it to shreds. I would be horrified if one of my dogs (I own German Shepherds so am aware of what it is to have an ostracized breed) ever killed another dog. Any dog of mine that attacked a human without the most extreme of provocations, would honestly be put to sleep. 

A dog-aggressive/human-aggressive dog can impact everyone, not just those closest to it. Many people seem to be in denial when faced with the true extent of their dog's aggressiveness. A lady came into the aquarium I frequent the other day and was quite happily talking about her small dog that actively goes other people and seemed like a candidate for the green dream. 

What she was describing was completely inappropriate and frankly very dangerous behaviour. If that dog had been a bigger breed, I am sure it would not have seemed so amusing. 

Because these people are in denial (many are terrified that by admitting they have a dangerous dog that it will be taken from them), they often do not take appropriate measures to contain these dogs away from the general public. Then when one or more of these dogs gets loose, it inevitably ends in tragedy. 

You can bet if my dog was ever attacked by another so viciously that it had to be euthanised I would do everything in my power to get the attacking dog destroyed. That is a boundary crossed that can never be uncrossed and if the owner has shown their inability to contain their dog once, chances are they will have a lapse in the future. It's like how you almost always see the same dogs loose on the street time after time. 

However, completely banning breeds seems like a slippery slope to go down. Here there have been a few cases where dogs that look pitbull have been seized from their owners. My dad owns a very friendly and affectionate (this dog would crawl under your skin if he could) pitbull cross. Because he had severe separation anxiety, my dad's yard looks like it houses a velociraptor. I am absolutely terrified that one day something is going to happen or some legislation is going to be passed, and Porter is going to be taken and euthanised through no fault of his own. 

Not so long ago, German Shepherds, Dobermans and Rottweilers were the 'bad' guys. People still ask me all the time whether my big, friendly male who approaches people with soft eyes and a wagging tail will bite them. People actually cross to the other side of the road/sidewalk if they see me coming or run to leash their dogs like I am walking some hound from hell. 

This is why everywhere I go I am careful that my dogs are good PR for the breed. All it takes is for a German Shepherd to attack a person or kill a small dog (I think one did not that long ago) and the public goes into a frenzy. My dogs are all pretty well-behaved and well-adjusted members of society (our youngest is fear-aggressive towards other dogs but has improved in leaps and bounds), and the thought of losing them because of the actions of a few irresponsible people makes me very worried. 

I sit on the fence. On one hand I believe that there needs to be much more severe penalties for owners who allow their DA/HA dogs to roam, and yet on the other hand I fear that legislation is going to be rammed through on the back of public panic and that it is going to be innocent dogs and owners who suffer most.


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## Granberry

Cane Corsos are on the list too. They were bred to hunt down and kill runaway slaves. 

Since you have such passion for this, why don't you try to do something constructive instead of just blathering on.

Why don't you buy yourself some champion bred pit bull, train it up (assuming the Corso doesn't kill it first), take it to obedience, get every obedience title you can and brag loudly. Be a good ambassador for the breed. Then you can become the breed club president and follow the example of the Rottweiler breed clubs and spread the gospel that "every dog who shows aggression to any man, woman, or child gets put down". No "one free bite" rule. Just refine the breed. It will be a tough job....there are very few well-bred pit bulls out there and a lot of crummy ads on the internet by breeders who emphasize the viciousness of their dogs. But if you have the passion, you should do it.


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry said:


> Cane Corsos are on the list too. They were bred to hunt down and kill runaway slaves.
> 
> Since you have such passion for this, why don't you try to do something constructive instead of just blathering on.
> 
> Why don't you buy yourself some champion bred pit bull, train it up (assuming the Corso doesn't kill it first), take it to obedience, and let it be a good ambassador for the breed. Then you can become the breed club president and follow the example of the Rottweiler breed clubs and spread the gospel that "every dog who shows aggression to any man, woman, or child gets put down". No "one free bite" rule. Just refine the breed. It will be a tough job....there are very few well-bred pit bulls out there and a lot of crummy ads on the internet by breeders who emphasize the viciousness of their dogs. But if you have the passion, you should do it.


And why don't you go along on your merry way and leave the conversation? FYI: the Cane Corso was NOT bred to hunt down and kill runaway slaves, they were bred to be another hunting dog much like the terriers, labs, pointers, goldens, etc. The only difference is they were bred for "big game" hunting Cane Corso - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://www.canecorsovero.com/breed/history.asp

I'm done with this conversation since you refuse to even TRY to educate yourself. You're not even "dipping your toes in new water" to even bother to see what dogs really are. They're not out to kill you! If they were, they wouldn't be so close in our homes as they are today.

BTW: the Cane Corso I am fostering, he was owned by a Marine soldier whom died in Iraq just before Christmas. This dog is actually a certified therapeutic dog. He visits the elderly in senior homes, the terminally ill in hospitals, soldiers who are undergoing therapy from their injuries and many other people who could use his gentle presence.


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## LittleBettaFish

I always thought the original pitbull was not bred to be human aggressive, as when fighting dogs, people wanted to be able to separate the dogs without getting bitten.

I think a lot of the faulty temperaments you see now in many breeds of dogs (German Shepherds for one have become increasingly nervy and 'soft') is due to indiscriminate breeding. 

You have so many BYB pumping these dogs out. Neither parent is proven or health-checked, and the end result is unstable and sometimes dangerous dogs. 

Being unfriendly to strangers is not a fault in many breeds. However, unless the dog is trained in protection, pulling a stranger down and savaging them is not really an appropriate response.


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## MiyuMikaelson

There's a lot about Pit Bull's fighting; tearing of a 3 year olds arm, what have you.

If you're going to bring that up, how about you bring up the cases where other breeds of dogs that have done the same thing? A RETRIEVER who mauled and dismembered his 2 month old "owner" or things along that line? There will always be a few "bad eggs" in any breed. 

It's how you handle the dogs. I have a Pit/Lab mix and she's amazing because I trained her to be amazing. I love every breed of dog for different reasons, but banning breeds is really not the way to go about "fixing the problem". People need to be properly screened before owning an animal, and education about breeds and handling them should be more readily available.


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## Granberry

Oops, my bad. It's the Fila something that was bred to chase slaves.

Fishy, you have added a lot of emotion and opinion to the conversation, but very little fact. I can't help but list facts (lawyer, occupational hazard). I've tried to recommend using breed clubs to handle the problem and given examples where that was successful, using stricter licensing requirements and given examples of where that's done and what it requires, giving you multiple suggestions for ways you could channel your passion and maybe make a difference for the entire breed. 

This is the way it always goes. Pit bull owners respond with things like "don't ban dogs, ban stupid people" as if there's any way that could be done. They say, "My baby loves my pit" and say that if a pit bull pulled off someone else's baby's arm, it's due to poor parenting.

We can't legislate against stupidity, and we cannot argue with stupid people, but we can legislate about property that can and cannot be owned. And we are, and we will continue.


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## Bounce

Granberry said:


> I can't help but list facts


And yet you've referred to the "AKC standard" for pit bulls at least twice! :lol: You might want to double check your 'facts', especially on which registering bodies recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. ;-) 

This thread is full of lulz! :lol:


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## Granberry

AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
Official UKC Breed Standard
Revised December 1, 2012
(text about appearance, etc deleted. Text about "disqualifying faults"-which don't include aggression BTW- also deleted)
Note: Although some level of dog aggression is characteristic of this breed, handlers will be expected to comply with UKC policy regarding dog temperament at UKC events

EDITED TO ADD: I could look up the AKC and other UKC standards for all of the other dogs considered pit bulls but I'm bored of this conversation by now and am going to go feed my fish


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## LittleBettaFish

Granberry said:


> Oops, my bad. It's the Fila something that was bred to chase slaves.
> 
> Fishy, you have added a lot of emotion and opinion to the conversation, but very little fact. I can't help but list facts (lawyer, occupational hazard). I've tried to recommend using breed clubs to handle the problem and given examples where that was successful, using stricter licensing requirements and given examples of where that's done and what it requires, giving you multiple suggestions for ways you could channel your passion and maybe make a difference for the entire breed.
> 
> This is the way it always goes. Pit bull owners respond with things like "don't ban dogs, ban stupid people" as if there's any way that could be done. They say, "My baby loves my pit" and say that if a pit bull pulled off someone else's baby's arm, it's due to poor parenting.
> 
> We can't legislate against stupidity, and we cannot argue with stupid people, but we can legislate about property that can and cannot be owned. And we are, and we will continue.


Do you own a dog? 

Can I ask what happened if you were a responsible pet owner who had dog that was dearly beloved by you, but which was suddenly deemed to be a dangerous breed/colour/type?

What if the law was that any dog of your breed/colour/type had to be rounded up en masse and euthanised? 

Would you find it easy to surrender up your beloved family pet to certain death because of idiots out there who never think of the possible wide-reaching consequences of their actions? 

I'm sure you'd be angry, upset and heartbroken that this was allowed to happen. 

BSL hurts a lot of innocent people. Pets aren't just property to most of us. They are a part of the family. It's not like this legislation involving the handing in of firearms. Pets are a huge part of many people's lives. 

It's why pet owners have to be very cautious about what kind of laws are passed in regards to our pets.


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## Viva

I think this thread all comes down to this:

Some people choose to kill things to fix their problems. Other people try to nurture and motivate those things to try and fix the problem. We all know which choice is easiest and has the most solid outcome: killing. Therefore, as humans, most of us choose to kill. If you believe in evolution (which I do), you will see that primates in general are fairly violent mammals, especially chimpanzees. This is quite ironic considering we are killing animals for being just that, violent. I'm afraid we're all hypocrites 

On the contrary, you really can't blame anyone for wanting to kill vicious dogs. I don't think targeting a breed is the way to go because it makes absolutely no sense at all, but we kill dogs for the same reason dogs bite or kill humans: they feel threatened, anxious or dominant.


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## Granberry

Guys, no reasonable BSL would "round up pit bulls and euthanize them".

In the UK, the law was that all pit bull type dogs had to be registered with a certain agency and be neutered and to be tagged. Those dogs were free to live their lives with their families. No breeding. When they died, the end. It wasn't a fast solution, but it was reasonable. It is the kind of solution we could come up with if Pit Bull owners weren't so stubborn and emotional.

BTW, I have 3 dogs, a pug, pomeranian and Cavalier King Charles. Prior to that, I had a pug and a Rottweiler. I loved the Rottweiler more than any of them. But my toddler dropped a piece of cheese and my dog reached for it the same time my son did. My dog defied his training. He was trained (formal obedience and daily work) to step back and sit. Instead he barked a warning bark, showed his teeth, and got the cheese. We put him down the next day and we all cried for a month, but it was what was the message the Rottweiler Breed Club was putting out. I was very active with in the AOL online forums, and everyone agreed - not one person dissented.. I remember one person who I didn't even like actually said to me "Your dog showed aggression towards your baby. How could you responsibly tolerate that?" I was devastated that he, in his old age, got cranky, but we don't risk that stuff in my house.


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## teeneythebetta

Sometimes it takes being directly affected by an issue like this to understand us """stubborn and emotional""" pit bull owners...
Point is some people just don't care because it doesn't affect their own animals... 
I defend any breed that is being attacked, this sort of thing has affected many breeds Over the years and I'm sure shortly there will be yet another breed in the same position as ours is today....

In short there is a reason pit bulls are hated... Because people don't understand that everything is individual. This doesn't account for just dog breeds, it goes to human races, origins and beyond things like that.

A dog is like a painting and the owner is like the painter... The painter helps the painting develop and is responsible for the way it turns out..


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## FishyFishy89

Granberry, you're wrong yet again. Go and search up BSL type laws that were put into act in the UK. Didn't you here about Lennox? Everyone heard about him. BSL took him and killed him because he looked like a pit bull. Yet even genetic tests SHOWED he was far from it.

ETA: Heres a US Documentary about a BSL type law in several states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vtmAwcCn8


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## LittleBettaFish

Pretty sure that in Victoria here in Australia our rules in regards to dog aggression are ridiculously strict. 

There have been a couple of court cases recently where dogs were seized by councils because they had some physical characteristics of a 'dangerous breed' but had to then be returned to their owners by an order of the Supreme Court because it couldn't be proven that those dogs were indeed pitbulls. 

That's why I am so against BSL. If my dad's dog ever got out of his yard he could be impounded and possibly euthanised as he looks very much like the kind of dog they have been targeting and I think his previous owners had him listed as a pitbull cross (we adopted him from the RSPCA).

Local councils are incompetent at the best of times, and the amount of stupidity that has been going on with dogs in our state is ridiculous. 

Don't know what it is like in the states, but a lot of dog people, pet owners and breeders alike are quite worried about the direction laws relating to dogs are heading in.


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## Bounce

Granberry said:


> Guys, no reasonable BSL would "round up pit bulls and euthanize them".


Really? Google Denver Pitbull Massacre. (I'm sure the photos wouldn't be allowed here.)


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## Viva

Granberry said:


> Guys, no reasonable BSL would "round up pit bulls and euthanize them".
> 
> In the UK, the law was that all pit bull type dogs had to be registered with a certain agency and be neutered and to be tagged. Those dogs were free to live their lives with their families. No breeding. When they died, the end. It wasn't a fast solution, but it was reasonable. It is the kind of solution we could come up with if Pit Bull owners weren't so stubborn and emotional.
> 
> BTW, I have 3 dogs, a pug, pomeranian and Cavalier King Charles. Prior to that, I had a pug and a Rottweiler. I loved the Rottweiler more than any of them. But my toddler dropped a piece of cheese and my dog reached for it the same time my son did. My dog defied his training. He was trained (formal obedience and daily work) to step back and sit. Instead he barked a warning bark, showed his teeth, and got the cheese. We put him down the next day and we all cried for a month, but it was what was the message the Rottweiler Breed Club was putting out. I was very active with in the AOL online forums, and everyone agreed - not one person dissented.. I remember one person who I didn't even like actually said to me "Your dog showed aggression towards your baby. How could you responsibly tolerate that?" I was devastated that he, in his old age, got cranky, but we don't risk that stuff in my house.


Responsible? There's not a single responsible person in office anywhere. They get elected and then do whatever they think is going to keep them in office or get re-elected. None of them follow their own primal morals because they're politicians.

And it has happened before. Here's a direct quote from an article about the 1987 Denver, Colorado pit bull ban. This ban extended to any dog that even resembled a pit bull.

"Denver's controversial Pit Bull Ban, which took effect in 1987 after a slew of attacks, has resulted in the execution of over 3,497 dogs, according to Westword."

"The Denver pit bull ban has been a subject of intense debate in Denver recently, as protesters have descended on city hall to call for an end to the ban. The city enacted a one-year moratorium on the ban in 2004 after the State of Colorado passed a law making the singling out of breeds illegal. The moratorium ended when the City of Denver won a law suit that determined the state law unconstitutional. The pit bull ban has been in place since."

I would post the link but there are disturbing pictures on it showing a pile of euthanized dogs.

People had the choice of either MOVING from their home in Denver, or fighting to get their dog back after being confiscated. Sadly, most of them failed.


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## FishyFishy89

Where'd my "Thank You" button go? xD


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## Viva

For anyone who hasn't seen the documentary Beyond the Myth you can watch it here if you have a Netflix account. It goes over the massacre that happened in Denver and gives you a personal view of how people felt going through losing their dog and fighting to get it back. It also gives real statistics, not made up ones the media likes to give.


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## Viva

FishyFishy89 said:


> Where'd my "Thank You" button go? xD


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## Granberry

Owners of pit bull dogs and restricted dogs licensed within 60 days of the ordinance's effective date could keep their dogs only under restricted conditions, including:

if the dog is licensed, spay/neutered, vaccinated against rabies, and has microchip identification;

the owner is at least 21 years old and has at least $100,000 US liability insurance

the dog is kept indoors or locked in a secured pen, with government-provided warning signs posted at entrances to the property;

when off the property, the dog must be kept in a secure transportable container or must wear a muzzle while held on a four-foot long non-extensible leash;

the dog may not be sold or transferred to anyone outside the owner's immediate family
the owner must notify the government immediately if the dog is loose, stolen, at-large, unconfined, has mauled, bitten, attacked, threatened, or in any way menaced another animal or human, or has died.[30]

* * ** 
That's the "massacre of dogs law" I found. Really, if you love your dog that much, you should be doing these things anyway.

I haven't seen the videos y'all are referring to, but I did watch "In Dog We Trust" and it was so sad. The dogs at the pound (which, BTW, the pictures I saw that I assume were what you were refering to in Denver were taken...not somebody's pet...pound dogs) were so beautiful...collies, basset hounds, little puppies. Yes, it's sad to see dead dogs from the pound of any breed. Their owners should have done a better job.


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## MiyuMikaelson

Granberry said:


> Owners of pit bull dogs and restricted dogs licensed within 60 days of the ordinance's effective date could keep their dogs only under restricted conditions, including:
> 
> if the dog is licensed, spay/neutered, vaccinated against rabies, and has microchip identification;
> 
> the owner is at least 21 years old and has at least $100,000 US liability insurance
> 
> the dog is kept indoors or locked in a secured pen, with government-provided warning signs posted at entrances to the property;
> 
> when off the property, the dog must be kept in a secure transportable container or must wear a muzzle while held on a four-foot long non-extensible leash;
> 
> the dog may not be sold or transferred to anyone outside the owner's immediate family
> the owner must notify the government immediately if the dog is loose, stolen, at-large, unconfined, has mauled, bitten, attacked, threatened, or in any way menaced another animal or human, or has died.[30]
> 
> * * **
> That's the "massacre of dogs law" I found. Really, if you love your dog that much, you should be doing these things anyway.
> 
> I haven't seen the videos y'all are referring to, but I did watch "In Dog We Trust" and it was so sad. The dogs at the pound (which, BTW, the pictures I saw that I assume were what you were refering to in Denver were taken...not somebody's pet...pound dogs) were so beautiful...collies, basset hounds, little puppies. Yes, it's sad to see dead dogs from the pound of any breed. Their owners should have done a better job.


So my dog needs to be sheltered from the world, muzzled or in some god-awful contraption when I'm in public for no reason and made to be some scary beast because it would please other people?

I'm not even sorry, but no. I "restrain" my dog just fine on her leash, she has every right to enjoy the outdoors and the dog park as she pleases. If anyone has an issue with it they can stay in their houses, tie up/kennel their dogs all the time and family up and keep /them/ from living.


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## eatmice2010

Granberry said:


> Owners of pit bull dogs and restricted dogs licensed within 60 days of the ordinance's effective date could keep their dogs only under restricted conditions, including:
> 
> if the dog is licensed, spay/neutered, vaccinated against rabies, and has microchip identification;
> 
> the owner is at least 21 years old and has at least $100,000 US liability insurance
> 
> the dog is kept indoors or locked in a secured pen, with government-provided warning signs posted at entrances to the property;
> 
> when off the property, the dog must be kept in a secure transportable container or must wear a muzzle while held on a four-foot long non-extensible leash;
> 
> the dog may not be sold or transferred to anyone outside the owner's immediate family
> the owner must notify the government immediately if the dog is loose, stolen, at-large, unconfined, has mauled, bitten, attacked, threatened, or in any way menaced another animal or human, or has died.[30]
> 
> * * **
> That's the "massacre of dogs law" I found. Really, if you love your dog that much, you should be doing these things anyway.
> 
> I haven't seen the videos y'all are referring to, but I did watch "In Dog We Trust" and it was so sad. The dogs at the pound (which, BTW, the pictures I saw that I assume were what you were refering to in Denver were taken...not somebody's pet...pound dogs) were so beautiful...collies, basset hounds, little puppies. Yes, it's sad to see dead dogs from the pound of any breed. Their owners should have done a better job.


What law is that and were does it take place?


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## FishyFishy89

Yes they make you follow those unnecessary laws but they STILL kill thousands of innocent dogs! If you heard of Lennox and even watched the news, you'd know. Lennox's owners followed ALL the required so called laws and yet their dog STILL was killed. He never harmed a single person, never even looked wrong at someone. Lennox was actually horribly neglected while he was kept in custody as well. All this and more just because his head/body measured out to the "pit bull standard".

I strongly advise you to look up what is truly going on with BSL in UK and watch the video documentary "Off the Chain"


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## Viva

I find it scary that people actually agreed to do the euthanizations. People will do anything, no matter how unjust and evil, if they're told to do so by higher-ups. Reminds me of all the genocides that have happened in the past...and currently.


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## Granberry

Eatmice: Colorado.

Fishy: Was Lennox licensed like he was supposed to be? Regardless, it's really very sad if someone followed all the rules, and they lost their dog. But you can't allow a dangerous situation to continue just because of one administrative mistake. You are practically screaming that just because one pit bull kills a child doesn't mean they all will; yet you think that because of one alleged administrative mistake, the whole system should be judged?

Can you please list for me what you believe are feasible solutions to the problems the world faces by pit bull attacks? I've offered MULTIPLE. You haven't offered one. Remember, you can't legally force education on people, and tax dollars don't pay for things like inspections. So go for it. Offer viable solution that can be implemented statewide that will save little children from having their arms ripped off while they play in their own back yard.


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## FishyFishy89

Yes Lennox was licensed, I believe they had posted the picture of it on his FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/TheLennoxCampaign


We all got through this when they targeted the other breeds, the Pit Bulls will get through this. It maybe harder for them because they're the target of dog fighting rings. I hate to see such a great dog go to waste because of irresponsible people. Famous positive reinforcement trainers are actually fighting against BSL, many of whom trained several pit bulls. I honestly don't remember how the other breeds made it. I was just a child when it was all happening.


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## Viva

Granberry said:


> Eatmice: Colorado.
> 
> Fishy: Was Lennox licensed like he was supposed to be? Regardless, it's really very sad if someone followed all the rules, and they lost their dog. But you can't allow a dangerous situation to continue just because of one administrative mistake. You are practically screaming that just because one pit bull kills a child doesn't mean they all will; yet you think that because of one alleged administrative mistake, the whole system should be judged?
> 
> Can you please list for me what you believe are feasible solutions to the problems the world faces by pit bull attacks? I've offered MULTIPLE. You haven't offered one. Remember, you can't legally force education on people, and tax dollars don't pay for things like inspections. So go for it. Offer viable solution that can be implemented statewide that will save little children from having their arms ripped off while they play in their own back yard.


Kill them.


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## eatmice2010

Viva said:


> Kill them.


Kill who ? :shock:


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## Granberry

I read the Lennox story. You are WAY distorting the facts. He was not liicensed, he was dangerous, and he most certainly was a pit bull. In fact, the court stated: ""The council's expert described the dog as one of the most unpredictable and dangerous dogs he had come across."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18794360

\


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## FishyFishy89

uuuuhhhhh
Your reading the lies from the council. VIEW the facebook page, it has the picture of his license right on it. This dog was a family pet. He was by NO MEANS dangerous.


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## trilobite

Yes humans bred dogs with faulty genes. That makes the dog faulty. 
Bad nerves from bad breeding=bad dog. 
Why tolerate a dog that has such a poor temperament that makes it a danger to those around it. It makes sense to actually cull weak nerved, over reactive dogs from the population

Anyway, I dont think BSL is a good idea. However the pit bull owners arent doing the breed any favours, infact they tend to fit into one of 2 stereotypes. Theres the hypocritical, over emotional, lovey dovey doggy types or the "chea boi, my pittz so sick it be the realist pit, letz breed it and make some money for drugs" type. 

There are some good people actually doing work with the breed and educating people about them but until theres more people like that then I dont think the pit bull problem will leave.

@Viva, so your plan to reduce children getting mauled by dogs is to kill the children or the dogs?


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## FishyFishy89

The council LIED and said he was dangerous. There was quite a few videos up on youtube showing the "wardens" attempting to get Lennox to act aggressive and he never did. He just sat there and even wagged his tail.


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## FishyFishy89

Finding videos and posting them....


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## Viva

eatmice2010 said:


> Kill who ? :shock:


I was giving a sarcastic reply to the question, "What solutions have you come up with to stop pit bull attacks." i.e. the easiest solution would be to kill them.


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## FishyFishy89

Save Lennox, dog in Northern Ireland - YouTube


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## eatmice2010

Viva said:


> I was giving a sarcastic reply to the question, "What solutions have you come up with to stop pit bull attacks." i.e. the easiest solution would be to kill them.


oh


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## Granberry

Call me crazy, but I believe the expert who testified under oath instead of someone's Facebook page. You are playing fast and loose with facts, and I can only imagine what the Facebook page is doing.

In addition to the whole Lennox stuff, you called it a Denver massacre when in reality, there were just rules people didn't want to comply with so they turned their dogs in to the pound to be euthanized. Someone took pictures and blamed the law. Here's a thought: Want to keep your dog? Comply with the law and get a taller fence. 

Please spare us the spamming of all those video links.

Trilobite, I agree with you. Rottweilers used to have a terrible reputation, just like GSD, but the breed clubs took the initiative and handled it, and now there isn't as much fear and suspicion and prejudice against them.

Pit bull folks cannot even offer any solutions.


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## trilobite

Dont worry about a single pit type dog being put down in a country where its illegal to have them. Worry about the thousands of friendly pit bulls that are being put down daily in America. That is the pit bull problem.


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## trilobite

"Here's a thought: Want to keep your dog? Comply with the law and get a taller fence. " +1000
Why risk your dogs life just because you wanted a dog that looks like a pit bull, or are too lazy to be responsible for it


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## eatmice2010

well theres one solution:

train your dog and associate him/her with other people and animals


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## FishyFishy89

Finally! Here's the "assessment" the council did with Lennox
Belfast City Council Assessment of Lennox - Shows NO Aggression - YouTube


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## FishyFishy89

There werer THOUSANDS of people supporting that dog. And if the dog was indeed "dangerous" WHY would a family with a 12 year old daughter fight to get their dog back? He was an adopted dog, they could EASILY go out and adopt another dog. But no, they spent hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars to get their beloved pet back. They didn't even get to have his ashes or collar like the council said they would do.

And you'll believe some ho-bo paid to lie but you won't believe a family who went above and beyond to keep their pet? Your mental place worries me. People would lie and put up that much of a fight for as long as they did. They wouldn't seek the help of millions of people who don't know their dog and even help from PROFESSIONALS to get their pet home. Professionals that actually went to the "doggie jail", met the dog and did a behavioral assessment on him.


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## trilobite

What I dont understand is why were thousands backing up Lennox when they are silent about the thousands of other pit bulls being killed each day. 

FishyFishy, why do you tend to sink to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you? eg "Your mental place worries me."


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## FishyFishy89

Because it does! There are professional who back Lennox up. They went there, saw the sad, sorry state he was in and assessed him. And even then, someone decides they'll believe the council members who are BLUNTLY LYING!
Lennox was a big fight because even the professionals backed it up. I'm sure in their area they're still fighting it. But Lennox was a world wide fight because of the professionals involved in it. Sadly, you can't fix stupid, and these are stupid, stubborn people.


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## trilobite

It makes it hard to take you seriously when you are spouting all kinds of irrelevant emotions and insults. 

So some "professionals" heard about a dog on death row so it means this dogs case is way more important than all the others. I bet there are way more gentle family pets waiting to die in a shelter near you. Instead of complaining about one illegal dog from Ireland being put down, why not do something about the thousands of legal dogs in the same situation. 


The laws the law and as unfair as it may sound, a pit bull type dog is illegal over there and is to be out down. 
Yes, they say is a lab x bull dog or whatever, but its still pretty easy to lie about that, plus in a country that puts down dogs that look like pit bulls wouldnt you at least want to be able to point to a sire and dam to prove that this dog is not a pit bull? 
Why get a dog that looks like a pitbull and was probably bred to look like a pitbull in a country that kills pitbulls? I wouldnt want to take that kind of a risk with my dog. 
Yes its unfair, and no I dont agree with it but thats another law that wont be changed until the pit bull problem is solved


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## Viva

Granberry said:


> Owners of pit bull dogs and restricted dogs licensed within 60 days of the ordinance's effective date could keep their dogs only under restricted conditions, including:
> 
> if the dog is licensed, spay/neutered, vaccinated against rabies, and has microchip identification;
> 
> the owner is at least 21 years old and has at least $100,000 US liability insurance
> 
> the dog is kept indoors or locked in a secured pen, with government-provided warning signs posted at entrances to the property;
> 
> when off the property, the dog must be kept in a secure transportable container or must wear a muzzle while held on a four-foot long non-extensible leash;
> 
> the dog may not be sold or transferred to anyone outside the owner's immediate family
> the owner must notify the government immediately if the dog is loose, stolen, at-large, unconfined, has mauled, bitten, attacked, threatened, or in any way menaced another animal or human, or has died.[30]


So basically give us money, and we'll let you keep your dogs. Oh and after you pay to get all the fencing, insurance, microchip, etc. you still won't be able to enjoy your dog in any public areas in Denver. That's got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. If you said that to a 5 year old, they'd look at you confused and say "And how's that fair?" Government purposely made it so most people wouldn't be able to keep them. They made up the restrictions so people couldn't say that it was IMPOSSIBLE to keep your dog, so they simply made it IMPROBABLE. It's a cliche politician move. 

Also, another reason the dog owners didn't obey the new laws was because they stupidly thought that after their innocent dog was confiscated they were not going to be harmed. They were wrong, and paid with the life of their family member.


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## FishyFishy89

I'm sorry, I can't help but feel emotional when INNOCENT dogs are killed because of the dumbest law in history!
And I'm fairly certain that NEITHER of you are even watching the videos I posted or thoroughly reading the links you(granberry) posted.(which BTW states the family did everything to keep their pet that was deemed "dangerous". You simply don't care, you're just pointing out the negatives and not even bothering to see there ARE postives. YES there are real dangerous pit bulls out there. YES they CAN in fact be saved through proper training and educating their owners. YES some of them are too far gone to be saved.

By you refusing to educate yourself about these animals, you're not helping the problems these dogs are facing. You're adding to the problem. You're adding to the thousands of innocent dogs that will be killed. And I didn't say Lennox was more important because professional were involved. In case you haven't noticed, the US has it's own problem to deal with right now.(which is totally off topic)

Here are some links to give you the TRUTH about BSL and how it really ISN'T going to solve the problem we're having with pit bulls and pit bull type dogs. Wither you read them or not, is your problem. Don't come back and wonder where the great dogs have gone. Because it will be partly your problem. The people who love these dogs are currently standing up and fighting for them. You're just sitting there saying "that dog breed has bit countless of people! get rid of it!" The same words were uttered with the chow chow, german sheppard, doberman, rottweilers and now pit bulls.
Punishment of the Innocent | Stop BSL
Lennox Killed Because of Breed Specific Legislation
The Truth About BSL
The Truth About Pitbulls
If these dogs in these videos are so dangerous they'd be attacking everything they deem a threat. In which they are not. Why can't you see there ARE good and innocent pit bulls and pit bull types? Why go and kill are the good dogs? Just because some people cannot educate themselves. Punish those who abuse the animals. INCREASE the penalty for abusing these animals.
Pit Bulls || Get Off My Back - YouTube 
The playful Pit bulls of Youtube! - YouTube
This video may have content you may not like American Pit Bull - Killer Canine or Family Friend? - YouTube


In order to make a breed negative, humans must make it so. In order to make a breed positive, humans must make it so.


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## FishyFishy89

And Granberry, since you cannot find anything that isn't negative about the breed, here is the dog license that you said the family never had. Straight from their FaceBook.


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## Granberry

You're right on one thing....I haven't looked at any of the videos you posted. They're simply not credible to me. This quote from the court persuades me: "Whilst there is an exemption scheme to which dogs of this type (pit-bull terrier type) may be admitted as an alternative to destruction, there were no such measures that could be applied in this case that would address the concerns relating to public safety. The Council’s expert described the dog as one of the most unpredictable and dangerous dogs he had come across." Facebook and youtube...not so credible.

Fishy, you spend a lot of time talking about these "innocent dogs", but I have not once heard you offer a solution for what to do about the "guilty" ones. In every situation where it's been stated that someone was attacked, you blame the victim...even the toddlers.

I have asked you before, and I'll ask again: What do you believe is a solution? 

It has to be constitutional. You can't simply say "education" because people cannot be forced to think a certain way. 

It has to be affordable. I already pay too much of my income in taxes, and I don't want to pay any more, thanks.

It has to be effective. No more elderly women chewed to bits while carrying in her groceries. 

In my view, the only solution is the legal route. We can't force people to train their dogs not to bite - heck, I can't even seem to persuade you that dogs that bite are bad dogs - but we can easily require they be muzzled, fenced, controlled, or forfeit their pet. We can't force bad owners not to breed, but I'd like the breed clubs to investigate their ability to use their influence to deny registration to the offspring of untitled parents.

But most of all, we have to be able to have a calm, rational dialogue. This seems difficult for you, and sadly, I think you're representative of the pit bull owners that I have come across. 

I have said my piece, probably more times than was necessary, and I'm tired of seeing my own avatar all over the place, so I am going to exit the conversation. Anything else I'd have to say would be kicking a dead horse. Which, actually, when I was young, my family DID drive by a calf that was being viciously attacked by 4 or 5 dogs. Ugh, it was terrible. His ears were shredded and his face was so torn up. Fortunately, my dad ran up and got the owner. Dad ran back over to shoo the dogs away again, but the rancher lagged behind a bit. I guess he had to load his rifle. He told dad "No, don't shoo them off" and actually started cautiously petting them. Then he promptly tied a rope around their necks, got them into the back of his truck, and told dad he had to get rid of dogs like that. Gives me shivers, but hey, those cattle are his livelihood. A little bit of BSL would have protected those dogs...kept them penned up, out of trouble.


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## FishyFishy89

I posted the solution quite a few times in this thread. It's not my fault that you don't actually read anything that may help what you view is so negative.
YouTube is quite a creditable source, I'm sorry you fail to see it. I posted a few videos, 2 of which were documentarys about pit bulls and how BSL affects them as a whole. The others showed clips of well behaved and well mannered dogs out in public. Surrounded by people and other dogs. Neither one of them showed any upset or aggression.

There is NO evidence showing breed banning increases public safety. What increases public safety is more police raids. Police raid places all the time for drugs. But you hardly see them raiding for dog fighting. Start there. INCREASE the penalty for dog fighting, dog neglect and dog abuse. Dogs are getting used as weapons. If people want to misuse dogs, then they deserve to rot in jail. If the dog(s) they misused can be rehabbed, then by all means save the dog(s) from (also) paying the price for it's idiotic owner(s). And if the dog(s) is too far gone then the best thing would to put it out of it's misery.

Drugs are produced and shipped so much faster than dangerous dogs are. If a force is established, you can decrease the numbers of dangerous dogs on the street. Decrease them and the public is safer.

Lastly they aren't "innocent dogs". They really are innocent dogs. Dogs that haven't showed a shred of aggression towards anyone or anything doesn't deserve to be treated as such.


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## LittleBettaFish

I'm pretty sure if you talk to farmers, particularly those who live on the urban fringe, all kinds of dogs are allowed to roam free because people seem to have this notion that because they are in the country their dogs don't have to be confined to their property. 

BSL will never stop stupid owners from having dogs that harass livestock or dogs that bite people. I see some really scary stuff at my breed specific dog club and the owners are just completely oblivious. Some of the dogs there are just so nasty that I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. 

I think our breed survey should do more to test the true character and nerve of the breed. The temperament test is an absolute joke. It's essentially getting your dog to walk with you through a small 'crowd' of talking people. I'm pretty sure that any dog who has been down a busy sidewalk or gone to the shops should be able to cope with that. You have to have a pretty unstable dog to fail it. 

Dogs that are guilty of attacking a human should be destroyed. With that said, I don't mean the family dog that gives the unsupervised child a warning nip. It seems people nowadays have no idea how to read dogs. When I was younger, if you got nipped because you were taunting the dog or you had run up to some strange dog and tried to smother it with a hug, it was your own fault. Dogs have their limits like people, and biting is very much of way of them communicating that they are uncomfortable with what is going on.

However, any dog that attacked a human and caused serious injury or death, should be immediately seized by council and destroyed. I feel the same about loose dogs that attack and injure/kill other dogs. There should be no option for appeal. I feel sorry for the dogs that their owners have failed them, but for a pet dog to attack a human without provocation is a serious taboo. 

However, I also don't think having to force every single pitbull looking dog into wearing a Hannibal Lecter style face mask and have them confined to Alcatraz style runs and kennels is the right way to go about it. 

It seems like whenever laws pertaining to dogs are passed, it is the responsible owner who is made to suffer. It's like all the strict guidelines we have here in regards to breeding dogs. Yet you still see puppy mills churning out puppies by the thousands each year and the same BYBs advertising their puppies in the free classifieds. 

I feel that if the pitbull breed and other breeds that fall under the 'vicious' dog banner are to survive, there needs to be a big clean-out of those who are breeding these dogs. Breeders should be forced to rigorously temperament test, prove and health test their dogs before breeding. This includes both sexes as there is no use having a healthy, proven stud and crossing him with someone's back yard bred female. Facilities should be required to be inspected once or twice a year to make sure they comply with set standards and that dogs are kept confined to the property at all times unless in the presence of the owner or a professional (such as a vet). 

I think indiscriminate breeding has undermined many breeds. Pitbulls were never bred to be human aggressive. Dog reactive yes (because that was one of their original purposes) but to show aggression towards a human was considered a serious fault. Those dogs would normally have been culled from the gene pool, but now that dog fighting is illegal and has been forced underground and pitbulls are associated with a 'tough guy' image, you get a lot of dogs being bred that shouldn't. 

But people also have to realise that not every breed is intended to go up to strangers with their tail wagging wanting to be patted. This is the AKC breed standard for German Shepherds: 



> The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them


Yet I see so many nervy unstable shepherds out there that it just breaks my heart. 

It is a hard problem to have to solve, but I do not think a blanket ban will solve anything. 

A new breed will just be du jour and the whole cycle will continue until all we are left with is toy breeds and mutts.


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## Freyja

LittleBettaFish said:


> I'm pretty sure if you talk to farmers, particularly those who live on the urban fringe, all kinds of dogs are allowed to roam free because people seem to have this notion that because they are in the country their dogs don't have to be confined to their property.
> 
> BSL will never stop stupid owners from having dogs that harass livestock or dogs that bite people. I see some really scary stuff at my breed specific dog club and the owners are just completely oblivious. Some of the dogs there are just so nasty that I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole.
> 
> I think our breed survey should do more to test the true character and nerve of the breed. The temperament test is an absolute joke. It's essentially getting your dog to walk with you through a small 'crowd' of talking people. I'm pretty sure that any dog who has been down a busy sidewalk or gone to the shops should be able to cope with that. You have to have a pretty unstable dog to fail it.
> 
> Dogs that are guilty of attacking a human should be destroyed. With that said, I don't mean the family dog that gives the unsupervised child a warning nip. It seems people nowadays have no idea how to read dogs. When I was younger, if you got nipped because you were taunting the dog or you had run up to some strange dog and tried to smother it with a hug, it was your own fault. Dogs have their limits like people, and biting is very much of way of them communicating that they are uncomfortable with what is going on.
> 
> However, any dog that attacked a human and caused serious injury or death, should be immediately seized by council and destroyed. I feel the same about loose dogs that attack and injure/kill other dogs. There should be no option for appeal. I feel sorry for the dogs that their owners have failed them, but for a pet dog to attack a human without provocation is a serious taboo.
> 
> However, I also don't think having to force every single pitbull looking dog into wearing a Hannibal Lecter style face mask and have them confined to Alcatraz style runs and kennels is the right way to go about it.
> 
> It seems like whenever laws pertaining to dogs are passed, it is the responsible owner who is made to suffer. It's like all the strict guidelines we have here in regards to breeding dogs. Yet you still see puppy mills churning out puppies by the thousands each year and the same BYBs advertising their puppies in the free classifieds.
> 
> I feel that if the pitbull breed and other breeds that fall under the 'vicious' dog banner are to survive, there needs to be a big clean-out of those who are breeding these dogs. Breeders should be forced to rigorously temperament test, prove and health test their dogs before breeding. This includes both sexes as there is no use having a healthy, proven stud and crossing him with someone's back yard bred female. Facilities should be required to be inspected once or twice a year to make sure they comply with set standards and that dogs are kept confined to the property at all times unless in the presence of the owner or a professional (such as a vet).
> 
> I think indiscriminate breeding has undermined many breeds. Pitbulls were never bred to be human aggressive. Dog reactive yes (because that was one of their original purposes) but to show aggression towards a human was considered a serious fault. Those dogs would normally have been culled from the gene pool, but now that dog fighting is illegal and has been forced underground and pitbulls are associated with a 'tough guy' image, you get a lot of dogs being bred that shouldn't.
> 
> But people also have to realise that not every breed is intended to go up to strangers with their tail wagging wanting to be patted. This is the AKC breed standard for German Shepherds:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet I see so many nervy unstable shepherds out there that it just breaks my heart.
> 
> It is a hard problem to have to solve, but I do not think a blanket ban will solve anything.
> 
> A new breed will just be du jour and the whole cycle will continue until all we are left with is toy breeds and mutts.


+1000000 To the level-headed LBF.


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## Kithy

The only thing I can say is my brother in law's wife has a pitbull and I've brought my two year old over to their house many times. The only thing I've ever worried about is the dog accidently knocking him over. Their pit is less aggressive than my pomeranian. That dog will basically submit to my son and just play with him, very gently. He lets him take a toy right out of his mouth. Whereas my pom is not quite as friendly, he growls and nips.

It's all in the dog, the single dog you are looking at. Not all dogs are "good" dogs, well bred or things like that. Back yard breeders or people who inbreed the dogs and them sell them as "purebred" sometimes have issues. But it's not a breed thing, it's a breeding and raising thing. I am pretty sure that my pom came from a bad home when I got him. He's not been abused in my care but he obviously has some defensive aggression. 

I can't say that no dog is "naturally" aggressive. Of course some were bred that way. But a kind hand when raising the dog makes a difference as well as good breeding.

That said, I don't usually look for a certain breed of dog and avoid others when picking an animal. I spend a bit of time with it and see how it reacts to certain things. You can usually gauge what kind of a dog it will be (with good training) within a little while. Aggression can sometimes be obvious but not always. 

But that's one pitbull. Not all are raised with the love he was(that dog was babied like all get out).

All these laws regarding pitbulls really suck but you need to comply with the law, no matter what. It's not fair but who said life was fair? If you really want to have/keep your pit you'll probably have to move. The image of the mean pit isn't likely to change no matter how much you insist that yours is a fine dog. I've no interest in getting a large breed dog but I'm certainly not against them or anything. I just think you need to comply with your local laws no matter how BS they are. If you decide to remain ignorant of the law or just decide to go against it then it is your fault something happened to your dog. I know it seems cruel but it's the truth. It's really no different than fish, is it? If you remain ignorant on how to keep a fish and it dies it is your fault.

As far what we can do to change it... I don't know. Better breeding and raising would probably be a good start. Buying from real breeders rather than people just "selling their puppies" like my husband did is probably a good thing also. But it's really hard to force something onto people like proper training and buying from breeders.

Example. Why pay hundreds or thousands for a well bred dog when I can go on craigslist and buy a puppy for less than $200? The average person who just wants a "pet" is going to do the cheaper route. They want a dog for their kid, perfectly normal. But they don't want to buy an expensive one. I mean, who wants to spend tons of money on anything these days anyway? But most people see pets as "disposable", even dogs. They don't like it, they can "get rid of it" via shelter, internet or the vet. 

Anyway... I don't really know what we can do to change it. Shoving facts, pictures and videos down people's throat isn't going to change anything, it's just going to make them throw your voice in the "crazy" pile if you're obsessing over it.

And LBF, you are my hero. 
"When I was younger, if you got nipped because you were taunting the dog or you had run up to some strange dog and tried to smother it with a hug, it was your own fault."

I live by this even know. Any dog can be made aggressive in the right situation. If you run up and glomp it, it might bite. This is not the fault of the owner, it's the fault of the idiot who got bit. I did this as a kid. I hugged my Godmother's dog so tight that it bit me. It was my own fault for being stupid. And I stand by the same thing with my pom. My son will run up and just bug my dog and after a while of this he growls/bares teeth/nips. It's his way of saying "leave me alone now". Of course my son is only two and I jump in and explain why this is happening and he's gotten better about it. My dog is defensive aggressive, I know this. The kid does not so it's my responsibility to monitor the situation. Any dog owner knows you can't just have an animal and not watch over it, care for it, monitor it. And if your dog is somewhat aggressive then you really need to monitor the situation.

If I felt for one moment that my pom would hurt my son, seriously hurt him, I would not have this dog anymore. But he never nips hard, barely leaves a mark on the boy. 

And you are most correct, it IS the responsible owner who trains their dog well that suffers because of the ones who do not. The ones who really don't care enough to do anything with their dog but to "own" it. That is not a dog to them, it is property. And that kinda makes me sick. It's like the people in my area keep their dogs only outside and their cats are free to roam the neighborhood(please keep in mind we are north of Dallas, lots of traffic and we have coyotes AND now we even have cougars)...why? Why have an animal if you will do nothing with it, not spend time with it. I see no purpose in keeping an "outside" dog outside only unless you spend a LOT of time outside. I do not. It is too hot in here. So my dog is an inside dog. He sleeps under my pillow. He licks my husband's face for 10 minutes when we go to bed. This dog is a happy dog. An unhappy dog might be more likely to bite because it was abused or neglected.

Anyway. What it comes down to is the fact that poor owners are basically ruining everything for everyone else. And it's probably getting to be too late to do anything about it. 

I do feel the frustration of people who own dogs that everyone says are "mean". I live with my inlaws and they have lots of cats. If my dog wanders out of my room and one of the cats are in the hall my MiL freaks out and says to the cat "get back in here or the dog will kill you". This really hurts my feelings because my dog is trained(not well, I admit. But he's a good dog really) and I know in my heart he won't do anything. But it makes me want to cry when she accuses my dog of being bad like that. Even my husband, who is really annoyed by my dog 80% of the day and doesn't always like the dog will stand up for this one thing. I can't tell you how many times she has seen my dog actually run from the cats. He stays away from them because he is scared. There are two he will "chase" and try to play with but mostly he stays away. Her cat likes to try and come into our room and well, the dog doesn't want the cat in HIS room. So he barks. He doesn't chase or bite, he keeps a safe distance. But he does make a fuss. And she still thinks no matter how many times she sees this or we tell her "the dog is afraid of the cats!" she insists he will kill one of them. I know he won't. But it's proof that shoving information down someone's throat does not change their mind. Some people are wired that way with their prejudiced in place. 

Anyway. Think that's enough of my two cents :X I don't know if it means anything or not but I felt like I wanted to put my own thoughts out there.


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## LittleBettaFish

My mum sometimes used to take our older girl to pet expos and such as good breed publicity (she is German Shepherd not pitbull). One time our girl was standing next to my mum with their backs turned and a small child came up without any warning and just grabbed her in a hug around the hindquarters. Mum said they both (her and our dog) jumped about a foot in the air until our dog saw it was only a child and settled back down. 

People seem to be a lot dumber nowadays in regards to animals. I don't know if it's because of a change in demographics or a move away from farms and into cities, but never in a million years would my mum have let me run up to a strange dog like that. My mum had to explain that while our dog was fine, some dogs (particularly when in what is usually a fairly stressful and overstimulating environment) might not be. 

The father of our dog is one example of how people can draw the wrong conclusions based on only a limited exposure. At shows and dog club, he is quite cocky and aloof, and when all the intact open males go into the ring they usually are pretty fired up and there can be a bit of smack talk going on. 

My mum is friends with his owner and so I have been to his house several times. He lives with three young girls and he is just impeccably mannered. He doesn't react to anything they do, and he likes chasing his ball around and having a roughhouse with me if I visit. 

If you only saw him at the show you might think he was a slightly aggro dog. But I have seen him meet some of his puppies down at the dog club and it could not be further from the truth. 

This is why I believe our breed has a fund to fight any BSL that might be legislated against us. I've found Joe Public is ignorant as heck when it comes to dogs, and what might be appropriate or expected behaviour to those with experience (such as the mature intact males not wanting to be friends), could be perceived as dangerous or aggressive to someone who has little knowledge of dogs and how they behave.


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## Little Leaf

I'm unsubscribing... all this is too much for me!


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## FishFriend9292

There are faults in every species. Including humans. Just because there are some bad people, doesn't mean that we judge the entire human race by them. We should apply the same things to pit bulls. Sure there are some pit bulls that aren't very nice, but definitely not every single pit bull is bad. Just like people, I'm sure there are more good then bad. But you only ever hear about the bad because it is a big deal. You wouldn't find "Person plays and cuddles with a pit bull" in your local newspaper. I have met some of the sweetest dogs
ever, and they were pitbull. So just don't judge a pit bull by the reputation of the breed.


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## xjenuhfur

My neighbors dog is a pit, all she ever wants to do is stick her face is your crotch and she wags her tail and looks at your afterwards like "pet me plz?" and does that pit smile.
The GOLDEN RETRIEVERS my other neighbors have got loose and ATTACKED the pit as my neighbor was taking her on a walk. What did the pit do? Hide and cower behind her owner as he fended off 2 golden retrievers.

So there is a new stereotype for your goldens. Vicious, vicious things.


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## Kithy

FishFriend9292 said:


> There are faults in every species. Including humans. Just because there are some bad people, doesn't mean that we judge the entire human race by them. We should apply the same things to pit bulls. Sure there are some pit bulls that aren't very nice, but definitely not every single pit bull is bad. Just like people, I'm sure there are more good then bad. But you only ever hear about the bad because it is a big deal. You wouldn't find "Person plays and cuddles with a pit bull" in your local newspaper. I have met some of the sweetest dogs
> ever, and they were pitbull. So just don't judge a pit bull by the reputation of the breed.


You're absolutely correct. The media only focuses on the negative because it's good press, basically. So no, we won't hear positive stories about pits unless say, the dog rescued someone or something. It's really unfortunate and I dislike it a lot. But I never judge an animal by it's breed, I judge it the same way I judge a person; by it's actions.


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## Bombalurina

The media is to blame for a lot of negative perceptions people have of all kinds of things. They love to sensationalise the negative, whether in pit bulls, religious or social groups, politics...as was said, "Cuddly Pitbull" and "Muslim who isn't a terrorist" just don't make good headlines, even though (or perhaps because) those stories would in reality be so much more prevalent.


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## koincidenskis

It is true Pitbulls are more aggressive, but also misunderstood.....

HEAR ME OUT! I have owned a golden retriever, pitbull mix, and have "babysitter" many other breeds. Pitbulls have a predisposition to be more *protective *which in turn is valued as extreme aggression. 

As you should all know it depends on the environment the dog is raised. My ex-roommate's pit bull mix is extremely protective and only picks out certain people that she likes. She loves to play with other dogs, but is still wary with some humans. She was raised in a house with other animals and had no abuse. However to the people she does like she is so lovable and cuddly. 

I agree with the author, each dog, regardless of breed, has a different personality and shouldn't be labeled with a warning! I would get a pit bull any time because they are so loving.


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## Kithy

Bombalurina said:


> The media is to blame for a lot of negative perceptions people have of all kinds of things. They love to sensationalise the negative, whether in pit bulls, religious or social groups, politics...as was said, "Cuddly Pitbull" and "Muslim who isn't a terrorist" just don't make good headlines, even though (or perhaps because) those stories would in reality be so much more prevalent.


This. 1000000000% This. If someone says "Pitbull saves X from X" people will go aw, but probably not stop to read the article, share it on a social media website, watch the news, etc. But you say "Pitbull attacks child" EVERYONE is going to read it, watch it, share it, etc. I've come across a few videos on youtube titled "Vicious pitbull attack" and it is literally the owner's small daughter laying on the dog and the dog just laying there, doing what a good dog does.

But it's hard to go against the main stream media, it really is. They're going to do whatever they can to get ratings and happy stories do not get ratings like horrible ones. I can't even watch the news anymore, it's too depressing. 

@koincidenskis, I believe you're also correct. Many dogs are "aggressive" because they are guard dogs, they're breed specifically to protect their owners. I mean, I'd hope that if a random stranger came into my house poised to attack me that my guard dog would attack that person to save me. Isn't that the point of having a guard dog? So dogs breed with that intent can be seen as more aggressive just because of their protectiveness. 

Of course any "protective" breed dog raised in poor situations will likely bite the hand that feeds it, that's common sense. You don't hit your dog and then be shocked when it finally bites ya, right?


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## catmel

I've just resigned myself that most people are ignorant, love drama and are drawn to blood and guts ( Ever stop to think why traffic is so bad around a wreck when theres two wide open lanes? People stop to gape in hopes of seeing gorey stuff). 
Anyway, sadly, many good breeds have been made into 'demons' by the media. Did you know in the early 1900's the Bloodhound was deemed vicious and blood thirsty? Then of course German Shepherds, Dobies, Rotties, and of course Pit Bulls. 

Pit bulls are terriers, threfor they tend to be more 'scrapy' with other animals, but any terrier will do this.. yorkie, jack russel, airdale etc. There are however good examples of all breeds, just as there are bad ones. DOGS ARE INDIVIDUALS.. like humans. Yes, they may have certian characteristics, but are not all 'doomed' to the same mold. Some of it does indeed have to do with how the pet is raised, but that doesnt take into account the whole equation. Take for example the Michael Vick dogs.. all rescued have CGC ( canine good citizen) certificates, and have great homes, and some are even therapy dogs. 

Dogs raised in great environments can also be not so great dogs. Bully breeds are popular so therefor overbred a lot and are prone to random breeding, genetic issues and of course people just breeding dogs because they look a certian way, rather than for temperment, soundness etc. Because they're in such demand, such good dogs can have major issues. This goes for any breed though. I have met a downright nasty golden retriever that was from a pet store ( who bought it from a puppy mill), and have met many not so nice Dalmations. Its the breeds popularity and the lack of proper breeding and screening that hurts the breed. Pit bull type dogs were not bred to be human agressive, the dogs that are are a result from criminal idiots who have taken human agressive dogs and bred the trait further, and of course usually beat the crap out of them and abuse them in an attempt to make them 'meaner'. Dogs tend to fight in the ring because as a breed they are extreame people pleasers and will do anything for their owner, even if that means getting eaten alive. Of course sadly people chose terriers for this.. they were ment to hunt tough vermin that could bite the crap out of them ( rats, badgers etc.)

They are not for everyone, and it takes the right owner. You would not want a border collie for a 30 story apartment, nor would you want a chihuaha for a sled dog or serious running partner. You could expect the Border Collie to turn destructive and potentially agressive if kept in a cage in a high rise apartment all day.. certainly doesnt mean all Border collies are bad. 

BSL makes no sense.. when do criminals follow the law anyhow? if the media would stop giving them so much attention, maybe the 'bad people' would lose interest. To me its very similar to racism. I dont take the " but its a big strong dog' argument. Look at a great dane.. big strong dogs, bred for guarding/working.. very easily could hurt you if they wanted to.. and i'm sure theres been attacks, but since its not a 'pit bull no one cares or reports it to the media'. Not saying Great Danes are mean, just using for an example 

Anyway, get to know one before you judge. You'd be surprized.

I love my pit mix. You dont have to want to own a pit, just dont lead into the hype and 'help' have thousands of dogs killed every day just because of how it looks..


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## MattsBettas

> There are faults in every species. Including humans. Just because there are some bad people, doesn't mean that we judge the entire human race by them. We should apply the same things to pit bulls. Sure there are some pit bulls that aren't very nice, but definitely not every single pit bull is bad. Just like people, I'm sure there are more good then bad. But you only ever hear about the bad because it is a big deal. You wouldn't find "Person plays and cuddles with a pit bull" in your local newspaper. I have met some of the sweetest dogs
> ever, and they were pitbull. So just don't judge a pit bull by the reputation of the breed.


+1 (million). Humans do have a lot of faults. Hmm... How many people have died from humans (not just directly, but also by things like cancer caused by things released into the environment)? And how many people have died because of pit bulls?


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## Granberry

I think we should let people own lions if they want. Who cares if they're big and strong and can eat a kid? It's all about the individual, not the breed. Why, just look at this for proof. 




Again, I have to resort to the actual evidence: 

38 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2012. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 600 U.S. cities, pit bulls contributed to 61% (23) of these deaths. Pit bulls make up less than 5% of the total U.S. dog population.

California and North Carolina led fatalities in 2012, each with 4 deaths. 75% of the California deaths occurred in San Diego County. Pit bull-type dogs accounted for 88% (7) of the 8 deaths. New Mexico, Ohio and Texas followed, each with 3 deaths.

From 2005 to 2012, pit bulls killed 151 Americans, about one citizen every 19 days.


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## SnowySurface

Granberry said:


> I think we should let people own lions if they want. Who cares if they're big and strong and can eat a kid? It's all about the individual, not the breed. Why, just look at this for proof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I have to resort to the actual evidence:
> 
> 38 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2012. Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 600 U.S. cities, pit bulls contributed to 61% (23) of these deaths. Pit bulls make up less than 5% of the total U.S. dog population.
> 
> California and North Carolina led fatalities in 2012, each with 4 deaths. 75% of the California deaths occurred in San Diego County. Pit bull-type dogs accounted for 88% (7) of the 8 deaths. New Mexico, Ohio and Texas followed, each with 3 deaths.
> 
> From 2005 to 2012, pit bulls killed 151 Americans, about one citizen every 19 days.


I think you are missing the point of what anti BSL members are trying to say. ^_^;

You picked two areas of the US that are known for having problems with dog fighting. So I would assume that at least 5-8 of those 23 pits didn't come from the best homes possible. But even if all of those pits came from fabulous homes, only 23 were involved in fatal bits in that section of the US.

If you are correct that pits make up 5% of dogs in the USA and the ASPCA estimate of the number of dogs in the USA is correct, then there are approximately 3.91 million pit bills live in the USA. That means only 0.5882x10-5% pit bulls killed people in two states. Based on these facts, why should an entire breed be banned because you found evidence that less than 0.000006% of them are killed? 

That is want anti-BSL poeple are trying to get the general public to see. You are judging an entire breed by a ridiculously small sample of its members.


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## Granberry

And you are failing to recognize the giant fact that of all the fatal dog attacks in the US, 88% of them are by pit bulls which represent only 5% of the dog population. 

The "why does it happen" (fighting or whatever) doesn't matter to me nearly as much as the "how can we easiest stop it". If requiring certain things of people who own pit bulls doesn't stop fatal attacks, but reduces them by 88%, I'd still consider it a great idea.

Again, I've said my piece. I don't understand people who don't want to do whatever it takes to stop the tiny and the elderly from being injured/mauled/eaten alive by a particularly nasty breed of dogs but insist on defending the dogs. I never will have anything in common with them, and that's why it's just easiest to legislate around them.


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## SnowySurface

I do not know what tone you used to read my previous, but I can assure you of one thing. If I was walking down the street and saw a pitt chewing on a baby, I would kill the pitt to save the baby. However, I wouldn't kill a pitt in California because a pit in New York chewed on a baby.

I am not saying protect every single solitary pitt on the planet and let the babies die. I'm saying kill the 23 pitts that ate babies and leave the other 3.91 million pitts that are good dogs alone. If you can't see that, then we will just have to agree to disagree. : /


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## FishyFishy89

If you're going to state things like their facts, you better get them 100% correct
2012 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...TlLKAykYzNg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.eWU&cad=rja(not sure if this one is gonna work, it was a PDF download)
http://www.sinklaw.com/dog-bite-statistics-2012/

And FYI you simply cannot compare owning a dog to owning a lion. A lion is a WILD ANIMAL. A dog is an animal that has been domesticated for thousands of years.


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## Granberry

FishyFishy89 said:


> If you're going to state things like their facts, you better get them 100% correct
> 2012 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...TlLKAykYzNg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.eWU&cad=rja(not sure if this one is gonna work, it was a PDF download)
> http://www.sinklaw.com/dog-bite-statistics-2012/
> 
> And FYI you simply cannot compare owning a dog to owning a lion. A lion is a WILD ANIMAL. A dog is an animal that has been domesticated for thousands of years.


The things I stated as facts came from the site you posted. Mine was simply a cut and paste of your site, actually, so I'm pretty sure they must match. 

I am pretty sure the lion lovers would argue that their precious ions are as domesticated as pit bulls. We would say they should be banned or muzzled in public, and the lion lovers would scream that's BS, that Wildebeests bill people too...

@Snowy's quote "I'm saying kill the 23 pitts that ate babies and leave the other 3.91 million pitts that are good dogs alone. If you can't see that, then we will just have to agree to disagree. : /"

The problem isn't dealing with the 23 deaths we already have; it's how to prevent any deaths in the future, and if I can prevent 88% of them by creating laws for the 3.91 pits that haven't hurt anyone yet, (either for protective enclosures, muzzling, etc. or outright banning), then that's what my heart and my brain say should be done. But I am sorry if my tone was a little snarky...I agree that agreeing to disagree is a valid option.


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## FishyFishy89

Actually your so called "facts" was not exactly from the sites I posted. The percentage was 61% NOT 88%. Like I said, if you're going to state things like facts, make sure their 100% correct.

And your views are overly extreme. Lions aren't even on the same playing field as dogs. Lions have NOT been domesticated for thousands of years, they haven't even been domesticated!!! Nor have their genetics and breeding been compromised by humans. The only time they're bred in captivity, it is to replenish what is illegally hunted.

I'm done with you, you refuse to learn AT ALL.


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## Granberry

I see where the confusion is, and yes, I did misquote. It is 61%. The 88% was in the California region. My bad. I still mean everything I said...61% is good enough for me.


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## registereduser

FishyFishy89 said:


> And your views are overly extreme.


eh, you're both a little crazed IMO.



Freyja said:


> +1000000 To the level-headed LBF.


ditto


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## dramaqueen

I think I would be more inclined to listen to people who have actually owned the breed and are familiar with them than some article I read on the internet.


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## trilobite

Haha this thread revived itself again... 

Yes there have been many pit bull bites, yes many have been because of bad breeding and bad homes (usually a combo of the 2). It is the pit bull people breeding these dogs and it is the pit bull people placing them in these homes. Fix that first.

The pit bull lovers are looking for someone to blame, the media is looking for someone to blame and the public is looking for someone to blame.


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## kevinbacon

Want to know what (statistically speaking) is the most temperamental breed of dog? The dachshund. They bite more people every year than any other breed of dog. You know why you never see it in the news? Because they're tiny, and really can't do a ton of damage. News casters know that stories like dog bite stories do faaaar better when they are able to evoke fear in the reader. Dachshunds aren't scary.... But you know what breed is?

Not Golden retrievers, America's family pet, who ranks rather high on the list of most dog attack instances in the US. No, think scarier: Pit Bulls.

If people would just stop being stupid and look at the statistics and the temperament of individual dogs instead of being - lets face it, RACIST - and judging an entire breed of dogs by the actions of few based on information obtained from biased sources then maybe they would realize that these dogs are fantastic, loving family pets. 

They were once called the Nanny dog for a reason - they're very gentle and great with kids. Dogs, no matter the breed, are what you raise them to be. You mistreat them, abuse and neglect them, don't socialize them... you're going to get a vicious dog, whether its a pit or a chihuahua.


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## kevinbacon

Watch the documentary "Behind the Myth" and educate yourself.


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## Kithy

kevinbacon said:


> Want to know what (statistically speaking) is the most temperamental breed of dog? The dachshund. They bite more people every year than any other breed of dog. You know why you never see it in the news? Because they're tiny, and really can't do a ton of damage. News casters know that stories like dog bite stories do faaaar better when they are able to evoke fear in the reader. Dachshunds aren't scary.... But you know what breed is?
> 
> Not Golden retrievers, America's family pet, who ranks rather high on the list of most dog attack instances in the US. No, think scarier: Pit Bulls.
> 
> If people would just stop being stupid and look at the statistics and the temperament of individual dogs instead of being - lets face it, RACIST - and judging an entire breed of dogs by the actions of few based on information obtained from biased sources then maybe they would realize that these dogs are fantastic, loving family pets.
> 
> They were once called the Nanny dog for a reason - they're very gentle and great with kids. Dogs, no matter the breed, are what you raise them to be. You mistreat them, abuse and neglect them, don't socialize them... you're going to get a vicious dog, whether its a pit or a chihuahua.


This is absolutely correct. Unfortunately the media has done the damage to the breed and changing people's minds is rather difficult at this point. Anything feeding positive facts is just seen as an obsessive pit person and they don't pay them any mind.


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## Lisha

The problem with bite statistics is they are horribly skewed and inaccurate. The only way they will show a true indication of aggression by breed is if EVERY bite was reported. If they were, all those "Top 10 most aggressive dog breed" lists would have to be redone. 

I am definitely more wary of smaller breeds then I am larger breeds. Yes, larger breeds can do more damage, but any size dog can be dangerous if they land a bite in the right place. Smaller dogs are often underestimated and babied because of their size and cuteness. As a result, they are often poorly trained and socialised and more likely to be allowed to get away with bad behaviour. 

I'm currently studying in the veterinary field and you wanna know the breed that I hear the most negative feedback about from vets and vet techs? Chihuahua's. 

We definitely use the smaller muzzles far more often than the larger ones. 
We have a large family, lots of neices and nephews and everyone has their own dogs. Rottweilers, staffies, pit mixes, bulldogs, bullmastiffs and pomeranians. The pom's are the only two dogs out of all of them that have ever snapped and landed a bite on any of the kids - both on the face, no less.

The sad fact is that people are generally ignorant about a dog's body language and we try so hard to humanize them and treat them like our babies. They are dogs, they behave like dogs, they communicate like dogs and no amount of cutesy talk and babying will change that. 

I hate it when I hear "I don't know why he/she snapped. It happened out of nowhere!"

Most likely it didn't happen out of nowhere...you just didn't pick up on what the dog was trying to say and biting was it's last effort to communicate.


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## RoMay

Where I work there is a reddish pit who is very agressive and will attack anyone that comes near with his tongue. I know he got loose once and attacked me with that big wet slobbery appendage. There's also a muscular white pit that looks fit for fighting that appears in front the coffee shop. He's afraid of pomeranians and cries underneigth the newspaper boxes till his owner comes out with his morning coffee.

Then you go to my neighborhood where i live and that all changes. The differance is how they were taken care of. By where I work is Huntington Beach it is well known to be a dog friendly area with people who love their dogs. Where I live is considered Little Mexico and that's all I will say on that.

If you ask me the only turely agressive dog are the ankle biters. Can you imagine with the attitude some of those dogs especially Chihuahuas where the size of the pit?

Dogs are what we make them out to be. I would never hate a pit because it was a pit. However I would hate an owner for what he did to his dog. Yes, I know, sometimes dogs have you know their quirks but it's up to owners to be responsible.


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## FishyFishy89

According to the AKC, Boxers were originally used for dog fighting. Yet right here right now their viewed as much as a family dog as the Labrador is. You see what proper handling and breeding can do? The boxer is one of the proofs.
Boxer Page


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## Artemis

The problem is on the other end of the leash. The human. These dogs were used to watch children long ago before do fighting. Today I saw 2 little girls, one 7ish the other around 4 playing with their pit in the backyard. The little one was pulling on his tail and he just stood there annoyed but not harming them. They get a bad rap and that is because of BAD BREEDERS. Pits can be aggressive if they were bred that way. Blue's have become more and more aggressive as they are being bred for color and not temperament. The most aggressive dog I have EVER come across: My friend's 3 lb chihuahua. The second most, Bernese Mountain Dog. The friendliest: A pitbull who would bite when you were playing and she accidentally grabbed your hand and a rottweiler who is very territorial but will kill you with kisses on walks.

I have seen hundreds of dogs and me being me ask to pet mos of them. 90% of the dogs I can't pet due to aggression are the little ones (I had to stand 3 feet back in one line to avoid being bitten), 5% go to "New dog I don't know how s/he'll react", 4% go to "s/he's really scared right now" and 1% has been to aggressive big dogs. Mostly sharpei and cane corso although those get bad reps in themselves.


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## Artemis

Some "So True!" Pics
































But pitbulls need to be blamed not the beloved Labrador. I totally agree. People irk me. It would take me days to right how stupid people are.

Last one for now


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## Viva

Eventually people will realize that this agenda, just like every single other one that is spammed constantly on the media channels, is to either: 
A.) Reduce the American people's rights as citizens
B.) To make money
C.) To get elected (which goes hand-in-hand with B)

The sooner The People realize their emotions are being tossed around and used like pawns by the government (its important to know the government completely controls the media) the sooner we can all get along.

Also statistics mean nothing. I've taken several statistics classes in college and the main thing I took away from it was that you can basically make them out to whatever you want them to be in the end.


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## Artemis

Yes that's true but most statistics say that pitbulls are on the low end of bites however it is often that they have more severe bites. It's just because they have strong muscles.


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## Olympia

I actually have a dog training book from the 80's that states that German Shepherds bite the most people by far (females especially).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FishyFishy89

Olympia said:


> I actually have a dog training book from the 80's that states that German Shepherds bite the most people by far (females especially).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe it's because they're so often trained harshly/or taught to act aggressive but not given a way to release that energy in a healthy.

I find breeds like sheppards, pits, rotties, dobes etc are often trained harshly and handled wrongly. Even smaller dogs who are owned by people who don't allow them "to be a dog" are stressed out and act aggressively because of being handled incorrectly.


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## Artemis

Exactly! I once went after a stray pit in my neighborhood. She ran right over looking aggressive but stopped and sniffed and licked my hand and I grabbed her collar and she dragged me all over until I wrangled her to my house for a leash. She had so much muscle and I got her home fine but she was he sweetest thing!


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