# Is this a new disease that's killing our fish?



## copperarabian

Our bettas fins are turning to a burned/ash color and we all thought it was fur coat syndrome. After searching the web for the little info we could find we don't think this matches up with fur coat.

A big thing that worries us is our bettas are being kept in good conditions(Except for Fightergirl's who was in bad conditions at the pet store) and based on the description of the disease shouldn't of been targeted. We're wondering if this is something new, or maybe a different strain of the bacteria that causes fur coat syndrome. And why are they all *blue*? It could be a coincidence, but we shouldn't ignore it. 

This is some of the info on Fur Coat Syndromehttp://www.firsttankguide.net/furcoat.php


> It is generally characterized by discoloration of tissue, particularly the fins, to a dark brown or black and a grey or brown 'fur' or mold over the body, usually starting across the back and at the base of the fins and rapidly spreading to cover most of the body.


It sounds similar, except none of our fish appeared fuzzy at all which makes me wonder if it's a new type of Fur coat Syndrome. 

Sapphires started from the edges then moved inward, later it appeared at the base of the anal fin and was moving rapidly downwards while the tips of the anal fin where moving up rapidly. 
Note: He's a tail biter and the frayed look is not from the infection.

















This is Sakura's fish, it's was attacked from the base of the caudal fin.











This is Fighter Girls


> If you look closely, the bottom half of his tail was affected, the tail didn't get covered completely though... He didn't have much of it left as you can see. It wasn't fuzzy, it just looked grey, you could see the scales and everything but it looked like tissue was dying. He lost all mobility in the back of his body and he was gone in 12 hours, maybe less.














May have had other causes but similar symptoms
 
This is Pitluvs Betta Venom, we aren't sure if he had this infection or chemical burns but I'm posting it anyway since it moved quickly.









This is from a older thread by BettaRed and her fish also seems to show the same symptoms. I can't be sure for this one since the member was short lived and seemed to be treating with marine salt. Could that of burned her betta? http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=57359


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## Pitluvs

I really hope something can be figured out with all this. 

I have to add we are not 100% sure what happened with Venom, but I dare not to use the conditioner again to see if it was chemical burn. Fur coat was tossed around as well. And also, colors on my camera were not the best back then. This was with flash as it was 1am. Oh it's so hard looking at these photos  

Would infection travel to the body within an hour? By the end of it all, Venom had not a single fin left.


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## BETTA DET

Im going to guess that this is a new form or strain of fin rot, not of furcoat.


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## Pitluvs

It has to be a strain of something in fish that are kept in clean waters, as none of these fish were in any type of unhealthy conditions. I like what Sakrua (I think?) said about that.


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## copperarabian

BETTA DET said:


> Im going to guess that this is a new form or strain of fin rot, not of furcoat.


There's very little information on fur coat syndrome, and our bettas seem to have more of those symptoms then that of fin rot.


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## BETTA DET

Fur coat can be contracted from a fish being kept in colder water, it appears like your fish is encased on a white cloudy cotton, like a fur coat making it difficult for the fish to swim. I dont see anything in the pics of those fish resembling fur coat. I only guessed a new, more aggressive, strain of fin rot because it appears to attack the fins. Maybe this new bacterial strain can thrive in clean water as well. I dont know, just offering a guess.


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## Indyfishy

I can see the parallels to fur coat syndrome, but I don't understand one thing. Fur coat syndome is supposed to be HIGHLY contageous. In most of the homes where these sick fish were, there were other bettas present. In some cases, they were even in divided tanks with other bettas. Why didn't the other fish get sick? It's also really odd that its only seen in blue fish. Maybe there's something genetic at play? Could this be some type of immune system disorder, where the body sort of attacks itself?


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## Arashi Takamine

Indyfishy said:


> I can see the parallels to fur coat syndrome, but I don't understand one thing. Fur coat syndome is supposed to be HIGHLY contageous. In most of the homes where these sick fish were, there were other bettas present. In some cases, they were even in divided tanks with other bettas. Why didn't the other fish get sick? It's also really odd that its only seen in blue fish. Maybe there's something genetic at play? Could this be some type of immune system disorder, where the body sort of attacks itself?


 I hope not...My poor Aki's blue and he's just starting to re-grow his fins. 
Maybe it's something in the tap water? Or maybe it's genetics? Maybe...Maybe it's certian tailtypes?


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## copperarabian

*@BETTA DET*
Whatever it is it's pretty scary  I had looked at Sapphire 2 hours earlier when I inspected all my fish and he appeared fine, I come back 2 hours later and that's how he looked. 


> it appears like your fish is encased on a white cloudy cotton, like a fur coat making it difficult for the fish to swim


Do you mean at the inward edge of the colorless section? I think that is just the color being diluted but I don't know for sure.

Here's another cropped section of the same photo, I picked a different section of the tail that wasn't so frayed.









**EDIT**


> I can see the parallels to fur coat syndrome, but I don't understand one thing. Fur coat syndome is supposed to be HIGHLY contageous. In most of the homes where these sick fish were, there were other bettas present. In some cases, they were even in divided tanks with other bettas. Why didn't the other fish get sick? It's also really odd that its only seen in blue fish. Maybe there's something genetic at play? Could this be some type of immune system disorder, where the body sort of attacks itself?


I had Sapphire in a 10g with 3 other males (1 who is a blue mustard gas) so if they get it within a few days it means it is contagious  I have them all QT with aquarium salt and tannins while I sanitize their tank+dividers over night, hopefully they don't get it, if they do it must be contagious.


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## Pitluvs

Tail type, I only had a HM, Venom was a VT. Carnage was also a black copper, not blue. All my fish have been in the same tap water, and used the same conditioner. Just throwing those out there in case there's a connection.

But the blue gene scares me, as my Hughie is Venom's litter mate


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## Indyfishy

The wierd thing about the blue fish being singled out is that blue is basically the most common color in bettas. It was one of the "original" colors that they came in. You would think that blue bettas would have sort of stronger genetics than other fish with the "new" colors (dragons, pure white bettas, etc). None of it makes any sense at all =/


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## Sakura8

Copper, I think Betta Det meant that fur coat syndrome is supposed to coat the fish in that white cloudy stuff. Which we haven't seen in any of the cases. And fortunately, that fish in the pic I posted isn't mine, although I do feel really bad for his owner. He belonged to a poster named Rinzy. Rinzy, if you're out there, I do apologize for using your pic without your permission. I'll PM you now.

Betta Det may have a point that it's a new form of very fast moving fin rot. That's why I really want to get some testing done on the next unfortunate victim. *So I'm posting now to ask anyone who has a case that may be fur coat syndrome or matches the symptoms of the bettas here: please, if you can and are willing, submit your betta to a lab or university for testing.* It doesn't need to be extensive, a simple skin scraping may suffice. If we can identify the bacteria involved in this disease and compare it to the bacteria involved in fin rot and other similar diseases, we may find an answer.


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## Pitluvs

I still have Venom, but that's not something that's widely available in Atlantic Canada


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## Pitluvs

I am thinking that since coppers boy had biting issues, fighters fish had pet store issues and I cannot be 100% sure Venom didn't have an issue (He did have a filter on his side he liked to sleep in front of). Maybe this could be some weird disease that effects a small percent of fish with a small tear or infection of the tail? Kinda like a skin eating disease? Just tossing that out there. I wish the other two fishes owners were still on here.


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## bettaloverforever16

I hope Sparky doesn't get it, he's looking pretty rough now, and is open to dieseses. He's got shredded fins, and a weak immune system. Even if he's red it still worries me......... I hope we get this solved soon.


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## Sakura8

Yeah, Rinzy hasn't posted since. I was going to apologize for hijacking his/her photo but that person never came back. :/


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## Pitluvs

Can't blame him/her... I almost left after Venom/Carnage too. I still have nightmares, and the meds I'm on makes dreams more vivid. The boys I have now keep me going.


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## Sakura8

Yes, I remember how distraught you were after Venom died. I'm glad you didn't leave, though.


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## bettaloverforever16

I'm glad you stayed Pitluvs, you cheered me up the first time Sparky got sick


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## Pitluvs

I tear up thinking about it/him... I just don't want something like this to happen to another owner


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## fightergirl2710

Pitluvs said:


> I tear up thinking about it/him... I just don't want something like this to happen to another owner


Really, the feeling is the worst, you feel so helpless.. I felt like I had failed the poor guy.. His one chance to life was gone.. All you can do is watch it get worse and your only consolation is that it doesn't last long.


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## Pitluvs

fightergirl2710 said:


> Really, the feeling is the worst, you feel so helpless.. I felt like I had failed the poor guy.. His one chance to life was gone.. All you can do is watch it get worse and your only consolation is that it doesn't last long.


Yeah, poor Venom only lasted about 15h after I saw the first sign. And you can't do anything! That's the hard part. I can try and fail, at least I had a chance and blew up. But to have no option to help them, really hurts.

I hope something can be figured out, there has to be a connection.


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## Oldfishlady

RE: Fur coat syndrome....anybody have the name of the pathogen that cause it.....I can't find any Real information on it other than what looks like a scare tactic by a couple of people on the internet...


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## Sakura8

No one has the name of the actual pathogen but a member by the name of Silverfang spoke to a friend in the science/medical field who suggested it may be a gram-positive bacteria similar to other flesh-eating bacterias. If it's a scare tactic and fur coat syndrome doesn't exist, what are we seeing happening with these bettas? Any ideas? It's frightening how fast whatever this is spreads . . .


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## fightergirl2710

It could be a fluke maybe, that whatever this is, is eerily similar to fur coat? Because there are some discrepancies.. Like the cold water or the moldy appearance..
Do you think it might be some kind of fungus? Fungi move fast...


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## Sakura8

I'm open to any ideas at this point. I really don't think it can be a fast-moving fin rot though because with the exception of your poor guy, none of the others had any fin damage that I recall. I dunno, usually fin rot moves nice and slow which is why it's easy to catch and treat successfully . . . And none of the fins ever fell off like with fin rot that I remember, just turned that graphite black color.


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## fightergirl2710

Yeah, it looked like the tissue was necrotic..


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## Sakura8

But it's almost like the fish didn't live long enough for the necrotic tissue to fall off like it does with fin rot. Now I wish I'd actually studied my biology instead of cramming my way through . . .


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## fightergirl2710

I guess it didn't have time to fall off because it moves so fast.. -__-


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## Oldfishlady

Look at this...I wish it had pic......Iridovirus...it is Gouramis but other species have been infected too....just a thought.......we need a place to send a body of an infected fish......
http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Iridovirus in gouramis.pdf


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## Silverfang

I am by no means an expert, but just from how fast this disease spreads, I am inclined to think this is more on the lines of fishie flesh eating disease.

Either way, this disease is horrible, I wish there was an answer.


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## diablo13

Maybe we should PM darkmoon, if she's a veterinary student she may have access to more sources to study than we do


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## Sakura8

Oldfishlady said:


> Look at this...I wish it had pic......Iridovirus...it is Gouramis but other species have been infected too....just a thought.......we need a place to send a body of an infected fish......
> http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Iridovirus in gouramis.pdf


I knew you'd have some insight, OFL, you're awesome! Yes, this sound suspiciously like our culprit. 

I would suggest sending bodies (if there are more, and sadly I think there will be) to either DarkMoon and her school or University of California at Davis, since Davis has a medical school. How to keep them fresh, though . . . dry ice? I'll ask a friend I have in the mortuary business.


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## diablo13

Dry ice would probably mutilate the body..... It would work if we had a thicker covering than a plastic bag or paper towels, maybe a styrofoam casing?

Edit: OFL, your the best! If gourami's can contract it, so can bettas seeing as they're closely related


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## kathstew

I've only skimmed through the thread, but if the betta is a tail biter, wouldn't the chance of the infection or whatever this is be more likely to spread. Like, the betta is biting its tail, where the infection is, so the infection gets to its mouth, where it then goes through its whole system.
O_O


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## Oldfishlady

Flexibacter Psychrophilus or common name peduncule disease-lets research this and see if we can find more information and pic....what I have found..I can't post links...but it sounds a lot like what we are seeing in these fish....one symptom is the tail and caudal peduncle area darken in color


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## ForbiddenSecrets

The best I can figure is that its a type of necrosis but we're really going to have to get it checked or document every case that pops up if we're going to beat it as well as compile information. Like how quickly is it fatal. How fast does the condition spread. Water parameters for each tank including companion fish ect. Location of the infected to see if perhaps it is happening in a localized area [even a large localized area]. We should also see if we could find any cases of this in other tropical fish or if perhaps its a new strain that is only attacking betta. 

We need a proper log that we can edit often as new information pops up. It would be useful if the top post was permanently unlocked for editing but I don't know if it's possible to do that for just one post/thread.


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## diablo13

Kathstew may be right, it may kill so fast because it got to their mouth and invaded their system. So we have Iridovirus, peduncule disease, Necrosis, genetic problems with the blue gene, and anything other members may want to suggest. Let's get to the bottom of this!


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## copperarabian

ForbiddenSecrets said:


> The best I can figure is that its a type of necrosis but we're really going to have to get it checked or document every case that pops up if we're going to beat it as well as compile information. Like how quickly is it fatal. How fast does the condition spread. Water parameters for each tank including companion fish ect. Location of the infected to see if perhaps it is happening in a localized area [even a large localized area]. We should also see if we could find any cases of this in other tropical fish or if perhaps its a new strain that is only attacking betta.
> 
> We need a proper log that we can edit often as new information pops up. It would be useful if the top post was permanently unlocked for editing but I don't know if it's possible to do that for just one post/thread.


I just looked that up on Wikipedia, very disturbing images  and we should definitely make sure to document everything really well if there's any new cases. 

*@OLF* It's so frustrating that these diseases aren't well documented  I looked up some of the info on Flexibacter Psychrophilus but it's so hard to be sure without any example photo's and so little information. Since the Iridovirus isn't well researched either it could be any of these things. I'm searching the web to find anything else that may be useful for us.

The males that where kept with Sapphire still seem healthy, so unless I managed to QT them in time it may not be contagious, or it might have a incubation period.

**EDIT**
Does anyone ever email the Thailand breeders? Maybe they've seen something like this before?


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## 1fish2fish

Are any of you members of the IBC? it might not hurt to post your experiences on the IBC board to take advantage of any possible insight by people like Gene Lucas.


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## Oldfishlady

1fish2fish said:


> Are any of you members of the IBC? it might not hurt to post your experiences on the IBC board to take advantage of any possible insight by people like Gene Lucas.


Awesome idea 1fish.....several strong science background members in that club....who is a member......take the pics and post them on the IBC and see what they have to say.....


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## DarkMoon17

According to my veterinary sources there is no such thing as "Fur Coat Syndrome". Additionally, there is only one person who has ever alluded to it online. All other mentions of it are just copy-pasted from that original person...

I know people are looking for a bacterial/viral cause but cancer could also be likely... This fish in particular appears to have an abdominal tumor though it may be unrelated.







Blackening of adjacent areas has been shown to be caused by Melanocarcinomas... but cancer doesn't typically move so quickly. It very well could be a more aggressive form of fin/body rot. Really, the strangest thing is that it does not appear to be at all contagious. 

I've posted our problem on the Veterinary Information Network (VIN). I thoroughly searched VIN but I couldn't find any posts similar to this. Hopefully someone has seen it before. I'll let you know if there are any responses. 

I do believe the only way we would know for sure is to send out the next unfortunate fish for testing... You would need to get a jar of formaldehyde from your local veterinarian to preserve the body. I would be willing to send it out or you can ask your local veterinarian. Even if they don't specialize in fish, they will be able to send it to someone who does. Be aware that histologies cost around $150... Maybe we can all chip in to cover the cost.


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## Sakura8

To get to the bottom of this mystery disease, I would be willing to chip in. I say if the next case happens near the west coast, ship to UC Davis. If it happens nearer to the east coast, ship it to whatever university/lab DarkMoon recommends. If it happens in the midwest, it's that person's call.


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## Pitluvs

I really wish I was American! Never thought I'd ever say that but... lol

Sounds like this is going somewhere, we have lots of leads now lets start knocking them out one by one. Sounds like most of the fish effected were in contact with others, and none were infected. Doesn't sound like it's contagious. I know mine could have been chemical, but Carnage was in the tank as well and was not effected by the conditioner. I've had people say they use expired conditioner with no effects, but I won't try it a second time.


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## ForbiddenSecrets

I'd be happy to chip in for some of the cost. Anything to help create more knowledge for other fish keepers. I only hope my fish isn't the one who gets it.


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## Pitluvs

Did anyone with the effected fish use IAL on their tanks/fish? Just curious.


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## fightergirl2710

Not at the time, I use it now...
If there's no fur coat syndrome, now we have no leads at all :frustrated:


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## Sakura8

No, no, it's actually better than that, Fighter! No Fur Coat, but we have several leads, OFL and DarkMoon found them for us. One is a scary gourami iridovirus that is very similar to what we're seeing. And since gouramis and bettas are from the same group, anabato . . . *looks up in book for spelling* anabantidae, then it would make sense a betta could get this disease. Another is a melanocarcinomas that DarkMoon found. She also posted on her veterinary network.


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## fightergirl2710

You're right.. I was panicking XD


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## Sakura8

When it comes to this mystery disease, panicking is perfectly acceptable.


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## 1fish2fish

If one of you will assemble a document with pictures and what exactly has been going on with the fish, how it starts, feeding, water change, water params if you have them, where the fish came from, how long it took to kill the fish (if the fish is dead), anything related... and put it in a neat and organized form I can present it to the Better Bettas board (the IBC board) and see if anyone has seen anything similar.

Whoever puts all the info together for me can just PM me and I can give you my email address.

However, if anybody who has actually owned one of the affected fish is a member of the IBC it would be far better for you to post it yourself so you can answer any questions directly.


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## fightergirl2710

I'll try to put mine together, although I had him for only 3 days, it wont have much info but I'll do everything to help..


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## DarkMoon17

I do hope IBC members have seen it before as I'm having no luck on VIN. No responses to my post. I searched the VIN database again this morning... I couldn't find anything that sounded at all similar to what we are seeing. I did look up Iridoviruses (Megalocytivirus) but the symptoms don't match up perfectly... When they refer to "darkening" it is a whole body darkening, not a progressive discoloration. We didn't see ascites (swelling). Did any of the owners see "spinning"?



> Iridoviruses (Megalocytivirus)
> Megalocytivirus or Megacytivirus-like infections have been identified and described in the food fish species grouper, sea bream, and red drum, as well as in the marine ornamental: banggai cardinalfish and freshwater ornamentals: gourami (Family Osphronemidae), cichlids (Family Cichlidae), and live bearers (Poeciliidae), among others. Mortalities can be very high.
> 
> Clinical signs for suspect and reported Megalocytivirus infections vary, but in addition to moderate to high mortalities include darkening, inappetence, hanging, ascites, spinning, and lethargy.
> 
> Depopulation is recommended, as there is no treatment. Reducing temperatures, if possible and removing other stressors are suggested to prevent recurrence.


I did find this picture: 








They suggested "Ichthyophoniasis" but I can't find much at all about it... It is apparently an internal fungal infection? There was no follow up on that post so I don't know what happened to the fish. 

We should put together a protocol for treating the next fish so we are all on the same page. If it is external then either Forma-Green or 3tsp/gal Aquarium Salt. And you would probably want a strong oral antibiotic. Kanamycin & Metro...


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## fightergirl2710

That looks and sounds like the same thing! Maybe it affects bettas because of the close relation :/
Any idea on why it occurs?


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## MaggieLynn

I would chip in for the cost to send a fish or what ever the cost is for, knock on wood this hasnt happened for me but in the case it would happen i would want answers.


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## fightergirl2710

After looking at that gourami, I'm 99.99% convinced that's what the bettas have been getting.. I wish I could do something! I'm so friggin' far away 
I would really like to know what causes it.. Anything the VIN have to say about causes DM?


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## DarkMoon17

Unfortunately, I couldn't find much about either Iridoviruses or whatever that gourami in the photo has. As far as Iridoviruses goes, I only found one useful source about it and it doesn't sound like the best match. However, there isn't enough info on it for me to say that it isn't Iridoviruses that is effecting our bettas. 

One person suggested Ichthyophoniasis for the above gourami but I can't find any information in VIN about that either. I don't know if it was a correct diagnosis. But, that gouramis definitely has the same symptoms... I haven't found causes for either one, but it doesn't seem to be highly contagious.

If we do send out a fish to be tested, I can get a discount. I don't know how much of a discount but Veterinary employees pay a reduced price.


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## fightergirl2710

So then we just have to wait for some unfortunate fish to get this disease then ..
That really helps DM, at least we have some names now and I'm relieved it isn't too contagious (after hearing contagious to 100 yards, this makes me feel better -_-).. OFL and you are awesome!


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## diablo13

Yes DM, you and OFL rock! And it is good to hear it's not contagious


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## copperarabian

I printed out all the photo's and I'm going to leave it with the manager at Petco and see if he will give me any fish that start showing these symptoms.

*@Darkmoon*
If another fish starts showing the symptoms would it help if we mailed it express to Davis before it dies? Also while where waiting to pick up that stuff you said to put the body in should we leave it in the refrigerator? in something sealed of course....


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## copperarabian

I just got back from petco, and I love it a little more now. I found out that the employee I think is the best and most knowledgeable has a masters in marine biology. His first reaction is it looks like a parasite is attacking the nerves, but it could also be a fungal infection.

He wanted to know if there were plants in all the tanks this happened in because plants can bring in parasites. He also thought that in this photo the gills look inflamed and to try and get a photo of them the next time it happens. He's going to keep a lookout for any bettas that start showing the symptoms so now we have a larger range to find another who might get this.


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## LittleBettaFish

They're trying to ban/limit the import of bettas, livebearers and a few other species of fish to Australia because of Iridoviruses I believe. Therefore, perhaps it could be something that crops up in betta populations. 

Whatever it is, it looks horrible and if it's fast-spreading the only care you can really give is palliative. 

Sorry to everyone that has lost their fish to this.


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## DarkMoon17

Copperarabian- I think I agree with the employee about it being a possible fungal infection... It was suggested that the gourami had "Ichthyophoniasis" which is apparently an internal fungal infection of sorts but I can't find anything about it. I'm not so keen on parasitic causes but you never know! Good Petco employees are rare but it sounds like yours is a keeper. Still no luck with VIN though. No responses... 

I'm not going to say that it isn't contagious, but the fact that most of the owners had other bettas who did not become ill and it obviously is not a common disease means it can't be anywhere near as contagious as "fur coat syndrome" claims to be. Obviously, if the cause is cancer then it isn't contagious at all...

Does anyone actually know the protocol for submitting a fish to UC Davis for testing? Typically there are only a certain number of labs throughout the country that perform necropsies. It might be easiest for the individual to use their vet (whoever they take their cat/dog to) since they take care of all that for you. I personally wouldn't mail the fish alive since they won't be able to help it and it would inevitably die and rot during shipment. The ideal plan would be for the owner to go to their local vet and get a biopsy jar once we know the fish does in fact have this disease so it is on hand when the fish dies. The fish would need to be placed in the jar immediately... I'll ask my mom (vet) about it though to see how much a necropsy costs and how the fish needs to be preserved.


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## Sakura8

I don't personally know the protocol but since I live so close to UC Davis, 90% of the vets at the clinic I go to graduated from there and often, the clinic sends tests and/or difficult cases to the university clinic. I'll see what I can find out.


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## DarkMoon17

Thanks Sakura! I wonder if they have any Ichthyologists on staff.


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## Sakura8

I know some of them specialize in "exotic" animals but I don't know if that means fish, too or just reptiles/birds etc.


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## Silverfang

If I wasn't so out of the way, I'd look into what I could find out at home. We have a marine institute, and I know they've had experience with "exotic" creatures before. It's hard to forget a dead giant squid.


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## Pitluvs

I have to add, looking at that photo of the fish posted above by DarkMoon, that's what Venom looked like in natural light. My camera tends to overshoot colors. I do want to add that I had one live plant that was a new (javafern) and my temps were on the high side at the time (80-82F). I wish I would have taken pictures of him with no flash


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## BlueEyes

I'd print pictures and tell people at Petco and Petsmart to give me a call if they see any of their fish with this condition, but my mom would get mad and the employees would just look at me like I was stupid. 

I hope we find an answer to this soon. It's scary. 

I'm so sorry for those who've lost their babies to this already


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## DarkMoon17

Ok, got a response on VIN. It isn't all that helpful though... They want us to look at husbandry causes, which we are pretty sure don't apply to these fish... Can copperarabian, Sakura and Pitluvs give me a detailed description of their normal husbandry routine for these fish before they became ill? Here is the list he gave me... Sorry it's pretty long. Thank you in advance! 
*Basic Husbandry and upkeep*

Experience and length of time keeping fish
 Water change schedule
 Diet(s) fed and frequency of feeding
 Amount fed per feeding
 Live foods? Source (pet store, backyard, local lake, etc.)
 When established (if established)
 Waterfalls, air stones?
 Filter?
 Heater?
 UV Filters, ozone generators, protein skimmers
 Maintenance performed
 Media cleaning schedule
 Volume tank or pond
 Substrate used (gravel, bare bottom, stones...)
 Thickness of substrate
 Location of pond/ tank (noise, vibrations, heavy traffic)
 Décor, live plants?
 Lighting of indoor tanks, shade/sun for ponds
*Water Quality*
 Source (tap, well, native waters, etc.)
 Supplements and/or additives used?
 Appearance of water (cloudy, clear, green, etc.)
 Most recent test results
 Temperature
 pH
 Ammonia
 Nitrite
 Nitrate
 Hardness
 +/- Dissolved oxygen (DO)
 +/- Chlorine test
*Fish*
 Species, size, and number (bioload of system)
 Recent introductions?
 Quarantined?
 Length of time QTed?
 Standard quarantine procedures
 Current status of newly introduced fish
 Previous problems with current fish population
 Treatments used
 Response to treatments
 Current problem
 Describe (abnormal behavior observed by owner, lesions, etc.)
 Deaths?
 Clinical signs and number affected
 Treatments attempted (OTC, prescription, etc.)


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## Sakura8

>.< I wish I could help but the one fish wasn't mine, it belonged to a poster named Rinzy and she never posted again or I would have asked her permission about all this. I CAN say that her original post stated she kept him in a heated, filtered 3 gallon tank and changed the water once a week or more with water conditioner.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=72346

Fighter had one of the cases, though, she can help. That makes Rinzy's fish, Fighter's fish, Pitluv's fish, and Copper's fish, plus the one case from 2010 that's up in the air (I personally think the 2010 fish had chemical burns from the usage of marine salt instead of aquarium salt).


----------



## Pitluvs

Please keep in mind, this was almost 2 months ago for me so it's a bit hazy but if anything needs to be elaborated on, I can focus my memory to one spot. Again, my case is unknown, even more than others lol

*Basic Husbandry and upkeep*
Experience and length of time keeping fish - _ On and off over the years, currently the last 4 months. _
Water change schedule - _Bettas 90% every 2 days, gravel cleaning every second change._
Diet(s) fed and frequency of feeding - _Wardley Pellets twice a day._
Amount fed per feeding - _2 pellets_
Live foods? Source (pet store, backyard, local lake, etc.) - _None_
When established (if established) - _Tank was bought cycled, and remained cycled_
Waterfalls, air stones? - _none_
Filter? _Yes_
Heater? _No_
UV Filters, ozone generators, protein skimmers - _No_
Maintenance performed - _?n/a?_
Media cleaning schedule - _Rinsed twice a month_
Volume tank or pond - _5gal divided_
Substrate used (gravel, bare bottom, stones...) - _Gravel_
Thickness of substrate - _1 inch_
Location of pond/ tank (noise, vibrations, heavy traffic) - _Master bedroom, no traffic, quiet_
Décor, live plants? - _Java Moss, Pottery Pot_
Lighting of indoor tanks, shade/sun for ponds - _1 CFL_
*Water Quality*
Source (tap, well, native waters, etc.) - _Tap_
Supplements and/or additives used? - _Nutrafin Betta Plus_
Appearance of water (cloudy, clear, green, etc.) - _Clear_
Most recent test results - _n/a no longer have tank_
Temperature - _80-82F_
pH - _Constant 7.8_
Ammonia - _0ppm_
Nitrite - _0ppm_
Nitrate - _10ppm_
Hardness - _n/a_
+/- Dissolved oxygen (DO) - _n/a_
+/- Chlorine test - _n/a_
*Fish*
Species, size, and number (bioload of system) - _2 Male Betta, 1 small pondsnail_
Recent introductions? - _Yes, Male Betta from CanadaBettas on AquaBid_
Quarantined? - _No_
Length of time QTed? - _n/a_
Standard quarantine procedures - _n/a_
Current status of newly introduced fish - _Diseased, unrelated_
Previous problems with current fish population - _None_
Treatments used - _n/a_
Response to treatments - _n/a_
Current problem -_ Unknown Death with Male Betta_
Describe (abnormal behavior observed by owner, lesions, etc.) - _Swimming close to top of water, rapid breathing, rapid deterioration of Caudal and Anal fin, Dorsal untouched. Minor deterioration of body before death. Fins turned black/ash grey within a matter of 2 hours. Death within 15h. This all started after a water change. He was fine before._
Deaths? - _Yes, one._
Clinical signs and number affected - _One_
Treatments attempted (OTC, prescription, etc.) - _Advised to use 1tsp per gallon of treated water in 1 gal tank. Lowered water for breathing. Removed conditioner, used Tetra conditioner in Yellow bottle and remixed salt. _


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## fightergirl2710

*Basic Husbandry and upkeep*
Experience and length of time keeping fish 3 years
Water change schedule For bettas: two times a week 100% 
Diet(s) fed and frequency of feeding bloodworms (live and freeze-dried) 1-2 times a day
Amount fed per feeding 3-4 depending on size
Live foods? Source (pet store, backyard, local lake, etc.) Petstores
When established (if established) No
Waterfalls, air stones? No
Filter? No
Heater? Yes
UV Filters, ozone generators, protein skimmers No
Maintenance performed Occasional rinsing of tank and decor, 100% water changes
Media cleaning schedule No filter
Volume tank or pond 1 gallon
Substrate used (gravel, bare bottom, stones...) None
Thickness of substrate -
Location of pond/ tank (noise, vibrations, heavy traffic) Outside traffic noise
Décor, live plants? Some plastic plants
Lighting of indoor tanks, shade/sun for ponds None
*Water Quality*
Source (tap, well, native waters, etc.) Tap
Supplements and/or additives used? Dechlorinator, salt for injured fins
Appearance of water (cloudy, clear, green, etc.) Clear
Most recent test results
Temperature 28 degrees celsius
pH -
Ammonia-
Nitrite-
Nitrate-
Hardness-
+/- Dissolved oxygen (DO)-
+/- Chlorine test-
*Fish*
Species, size, and number (bioload of system) one Betta Splendens, size less than an inch long
Recent introductions? None
Quarantined? -
Length of time QTed?-
Standard quarantine procedures-
Current status of newly introduced fish-
Previous problems with current fish population-
Treatments used Aquarium salt, methylene blue
Response to treatments None
Current problem Rapid death, unknown cause
Describe (abnormal behavior observed by owner, lesions, etc.) Loss of mobility, body starting to turn greyish from the tail up within 1-2 hours, death in less than 24 hours. No changes in water, location before the problem started
Deaths? Yes
Clinical signs and number affected Only one
Treatments attempted (OTC, prescription, etc.) Aquarium salt and methylene blue


Would it also help to know that I had him for only 3 days? Before that he was in deplorable conditions and under lots of stress at the pet store.


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## RillC

I talked to one of the people at my local fish store and told her about the symptoms people here have been seeing. Since we do have a local marine institute, I suggested that if they learn of a betta that has died with those symptoms to send it for testing. Might be an idea to get local fish stores on board if possible, at least the ones that care about keeping their fish in good shape. They would potentially have a lot to lose if there was an outbreak of this illness in their shipments.


----------



## inkrealm

I have a blue boy and this is thoroughly terrifying  I'm so sorry to those who have gotten it and I hope something emerges soon D:


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## Sakura8

So far, it seems to only be blue/teal males, correct? No females that we know of.

RillC, good idea. I think I'll be contacting my Petco, they take fairly good care of their bettas and have a nice staff.


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## Loralyn94

I've never heard of this before, but its extremely frightening. This has definitely got my attention and i plan to keep an eye out for any fish at my LPS that have these symptoms as well as letting them know about it. I'm also planning to talk to my sister tomorrow who used to breed bettas (all blue DT) and see if she or any of the breeders she knew had heard of this. 
I myself just recently got a blue and purple male HM that i'm in love with, now im terrified of seeing this happen to him.

I feel for anyone that has lost there betta to this and hope eventually this can be prevented. Though with that said, not knowing the answer and never having to see another case of this is in my favor as well.


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## fightergirl2710

Nope no females, but that might just be a matter of time or the fact that we've just missed it...


----------



## Pitluvs

*Basic Husbandry and upkeep*
Experience and length of time keeping fish - _ On and off over the years, currently the last 4 months. _
Water change schedule - _Bettas 90% every 2 days, gravel cleaning every second change._
Diet(s) fed and frequency of feeding - _Wardley Pellets twice a day._
Amount fed per feeding - _2 pellets_
Live foods? Source (pet store, backyard, local lake, etc.) - _None_
When established (if established) - _Tank was bought cycled, and remained cycled_
Waterfalls, air stones? - _none_
Filter? _Yes_
Heater? _No_
UV Filters, ozone generators, protein skimmers - _No_
Maintenance performed - _?n/a?_
Media cleaning schedule - _Rinsed twice a month_
Volume tank or pond - _5gal divided_
Substrate used (gravel, bare bottom, stones...) - _Gravel_
Thickness of substrate - _1 inch_
Location of pond/ tank (noise, vibrations, heavy traffic) - _Master bedroom, no traffic, quiet_
Décor, live plants? - _Java Moss, Pottery Pot_
Lighting of indoor tanks, shade/sun for ponds - _1 CFL_
*Water Quality*
Source (tap, well, native waters, etc.) - _Tap_
Supplements and/or additives used? - _Nutrafin Betta Plus_
Appearance of water (cloudy, clear, green, etc.) - _Clear_
Most recent test results - _n/a no longer have tank_
Temperature - _80-82F_
pH - _Constant 7.8_
Ammonia - _0ppm_
Nitrite - _0ppm_
Nitrate - _10ppm_
Hardness - _n/a_
+/- Dissolved oxygen (DO) - _n/a_
+/- Chlorine test - _n/a_
*Fish*
Species, size, and number (bioload of system) - _2 Male Betta, 1 small pondsnail_
Recent introductions? - _Yes, Male Betta from CanadaBettas on AquaBid_
Quarantined? - _No_
Length of time QTed? - _n/a_
Standard quarantine procedures - _n/a_
Current status of newly introduced fish - _Diseased, unrelated_
Previous problems with current fish population - _None_
Treatments used - _n/a_
Response to treatments - _n/a_
Current problem -_ Unknown Death with Male Betta_
Describe (abnormal behavior observed by owner, lesions, etc.) - _Swimming close to top of water, rapid breathing, rapid deterioration of Caudal and Anal fin, Dorsal untouched. Minor deterioration of body before death. Fins turned black/ash grey within a matter of 2 hours. Death within 15h._
Deaths? - _Yes, one._
Clinical signs and number affected - _One_
Treatments attempted (OTC, prescription, etc.) - _Advised to use 1tsp per gallon of treated water in 1 gal tank. Lowered water for breathing. Removed conditioner, used Tetra conditioner in Yellow bottle and remixed salt. _


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## betta dude

are my blue bettas at risk? is this like a diasese that starts at the fins and once it hits the body they die? this is scary


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## Sakura8

BettaDude, so far it seems as if blue bettas have more of a risk but this hasn't been scientifically proven. We don't know much about this disease at all except that it happens very suddenly, starting with a black, almost graphite-looking spot that quickly engulfs the fins and body within hours. Numerous other problems, such as swim bladder problems, follow. Death happens within 36 hours most of the time, sometimes earlier as owners choose to euthanize. This disease doesn't appear to be connected to poor water quality, as at least two of the people who have had bettas afflicted by it practice excellent husbandry. 

I don't think you need to worry very much about this disease, though. Although devastating when it does happen, it is so far a rare occurence. If, and I sincerely hope this is never the case, you see the symptoms I describe, post immediately. Also, if you do see the symptoms, your best chance is to treat with antibiotics, both gram positive and gram negative, as soon as possible. 

But again, I want to stress that you don't need to worry about this. It is a rare occurence.


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## Nickpearson1985

Sorry to say it ladies and gentlemen, but if it just seems to be a single color of fish contracting this then we are probably the problem. With the rampant excessive breeding and inbreeding that happens in this species then there are going to be problems. There isn't another animal in the world so altered to different forms. And we are breeding for form. Not function. We aren't breeding for a stronger specimen. We're breeding for double tails, and and different color combinations.
Not saying that there is anything wrong with it, just please be prepared to deal with the consequences. Certain strains will have problems. Maybe even certain colors. Look at the rose tail problems for an example. Maybe we're just now catching on to the blue Betta problem?
Thank god I think blue Bettas are ugly...


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## Sakura8

Nickpearson, you have a valid point. After all, the wild betta is vastly different from the bettas we know and keep and this is because we have selectively bred them to be so different. If it is blue bettas being more susceptible, then I would not be surprised if it was the result of years of inbreeding to create a certain shade of blue or something like that. You are totally right that certain strains come with inherent problems. Many people say HMs are prone to constipation and swimbladder issues. And excessively large fins is becoming a problem for many HMs, including my own boy, whose fins are so big he can't even flare them out to their fullest.


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## 1fish2fish

According to my sources the blackening you are seeing is tissue necrosis, which, like dropsy, is not an illness but a symptom of another cause.

I asked previously for people to compile information for me to present to the IBC for thoughts and no one came forward. I really suggest you all start branching out to other forums, National Fish Pharmacy, the IBC, etc and start figuring out what is causing the tissue to rapidly start dying off. 

It may or may not be linked to the color... some people believe tumors are more likely in metallic fish but we've all seen tumors in fish with no metallic as well and metallic fish who never develop tumors.


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## DarkMoon17

The only picture I could find of it in a fish other than a betta was a dwarf _blue_ gourami. It may be related to the cells that cause iridescent coloring... Most other colors are independent of iridescence which may explain why we haven't seen red, black or yellow bettas developing this disease. Since it has been suggested that a possible cause is Columnaris, treatment with tannins and API Triple Sulfa or Kanamycin may be the best we can do. If one is unable to buy medications then 2-3tsp/gal Aq. Salt and tannins... Keep the lights off to slow it down.


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## Myates

Makes me worried.. these poor guys don't need this.. I am not going to get paranoid with Xander, I am not going to get paranoid with Xander, I am not.. yeah, I'm keeping an eye out lol. 

I hope you guys can get the information together for 1fish2fish and hopefully find out what is going on with them.


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## LaLaLeyla

Yikes. :S


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## 1fish2fish

Another note on columnaris is it is vital to lower the temp as much as possible. Columnaris thrives in warm water so it is recommended that treatment be done as cool as the fish can stand. I treated my girls at 74*, unfortunately they were too far gone. My neon tetras did survive.

Neomycin is what was recommended to me to treat.


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## Silverfang

When I first saw the symptoms and the rapid progression I thought flesh eating, or at least something similar myself. Worried about it and Scuzi too >.>

Well if anything happens I plan on making sure the poor fish makes it to the local college (we have a marine institute). See if maybe they can determine something.


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## Indyfishy

I'm disinclined to think that this is genetic, since the fish that contract it are spread out all over the world. You would think that if it was genetic that it would affect one particular line more than another. My theory is that it's a disease like columnaris (may even be columnaris) that presents differently in blue fish than it does in others.


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## Pitluvs

Its not columnaris.

I say people not worry about it and continue on with their days. I am unsure if my Venom was chemical burn or this mystery disease, but I own another Blue Veiltail, Hughie that's from the same spawn and I'm not about to sit here and monitor him everyday in fear it's going to happen again  

Sorry I didnt send mine in, I had it all typed up and we lost our internet and never remembered until this post was brought back up!


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## Behati

This might be what my fish died to. I thought it was columnaris but I'm not so sure anymore. What's the difference?

My blue rose tail betta wasn't feeling so awesome, and then 4-6 hours after checking on him his tail was gone. I don't know if it will help anyone else diagnose this problem in their bettas but I only have pictures of the onset of this "disease". His tail turned grey and fuzzy, then his tail literally fell off. When he died, his heavy slime coat came off fast. I had him in melafix and primafix with aqueon water conditioner. 

I've included a really high quality picture with no marks that you can use to zoom in to check out the damage, and the other two I've circled problem spots. I didn't see the problem spots until it was too late and didn't take a close look at the pictures until now. The betta was purchased like that, the seller told me he was healthy and was probably tail biting during shipping and should be fine. The shop was very dark in lighting so it was very difficult to see that this fish had "issues".

HQ http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4016/46679719t.jpg
1 http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1340/36487475.jpg
2 http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/249/57775849.jpg


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## Sakura8

Behati, how long did it take for his tail to turn grey and fuzzy? In these cases, the tail has an almost graphite look to it. Like this:


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## Behati

That is pretty on point with what it looked like. It was like he was burning but there was no fire. His tail was ashy grey, brand new betta. He started showing signs after a day, and died on the 3rd day. He didn't swim around like he had any issues, and it was still summer time so the temperature was okay without the heater. A day later, he started staying at the bottom of his tank and I ended up finding a lot of white stuff in his water so I immediately poured it out and gave him new water (which made me think, hmm white, cottony.. columnaris?). I treated him as a fungal but I didn't exactly know what it was. The next morning the area below where the chunk of his fin is missing turned grey, by mid afternoon - it had fallen off/disintegrated. At night the greying/ashing up of his fins spread to all of his fins (bottom fin, tail, top fin) and the end of his body nearest his tail. The medication didn't help one bit.

It took no more than 8 hours for most his fins to turn grey. The disease didn't get a chance to spread too far into his body from the looks of where the decay was because he didn't survive into the 4th day. He died upright. I really thought it was just a rip that will grow back but he just got worse.


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## Sakura8

Behati, sounds like your guy may have had this mystery disease. We really just don't know much about it at all. But this brings the total number of possible cases up to 5. I'm really sorry about your loss.


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## Behati

I just wish I saw this thread earlier or that someone would have suggested this mystery disease because it all started with me noticing something cottony floating around. The least I could have done was "donated" him when he started showing signs although I'm a bit far from the lab.


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## Sakura8

Thank you for being willing to donate. Although it's no longer possible, the thought is certainly appreciated. I hope that you never have to face this disease again though.


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## 1fish2fish

Behati I think you were right in your diagnosis of columnaris. The pictures looks like fin rot IMO but the fuzziness you were describing sounds exactly like columnaris.


----------



## tpocicat

Since blue is my favorite color, most of my bettas are blue! Light blue, dark blue, some one color, others mixed with white. I've been lucky so far, this disease hasn't shown up in my tanks. Has there been any research done that will tell us where this comes from?


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## Behati

If columnaris had this kind of decay, then yeah but really I'm not sure what is the difference between C and this mystery disease. It doesn't seem like a betta's flesh would turn ashy and grey if it was C. There was no cottony stuff stuck to him, I just found it at the bottom of the tank.


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## OMGomg

My Betta had that i think so i didn't know what to do so i thought i would let it calm down a bit by turning the light and the filter off and letting just rest for a a few days. Then when i checked back up on him he was very active and the fins started to shape up again.:-D


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## 1fish2fish

Columnaris can have this type of tissue decay. I've seen it in my own fish. My guess would be fish exhibiting this blackening either have some form of columnaris or a very fast moving virus.


----------



## emeraldsky

Hey guys, came home today one one of my girls was dead, it happened in the span of 12 hours give or take, she was perfectly healthy when I left :/


It looks like whats going on with what described in the thread but the main reason im posting is because this girl wasnt blue, like at all.

She was green and red, so I dont know if she was a fluke or just never properly colored up, but I thought I would share it.

Her mouth/face was fuzzy too, like fungus and her whole back half is black, like with dead tissue.


----------



## bhannon

Im a biology student at Umass Dartmouth in MA. I just proposed the idea of a research project to a fish and genetic specialist at my school. Hope fully we can figure out what this is. I also plan on presenting the cases to an immunologist. If this gets approved the fish that have been affected could be sent to the school for my research. Ill let you know if the approval happens


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## 1fish2fish

Edmeraldsky I'd be willing to bet that what your girl had was columnaris. It sounds EXACTLY like what killed my sorority and it too happened in the span of like 12 hours.


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## emeraldsky

Yea, it looks like it, shes the second girl out of the... 5 i think? Ive gotten from that petstore. 2 different shipments as well :/

The first girl didnt turn black though, like with the other ones so I posted a pic, just in case.


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## Sakura8

It's definitely a very strong possibility that what we've seen so far is an extremely fast-moving, aggressive columnaris. But there are also some forms of iridoviruses (sp?) that attack anabantids that exhibit the same symptoms.


----------



## Bettas Rule

Sakura8 said:


> To get to the bottom of this mystery disease, I would be willing to chip in. I say if the next case happens near the west coast, ship to UC Davis. If it happens nearer to the east coast, ship it to whatever university/lab DarkMoon recommends. If it happens in the midwest, it's that person's call.


I have not had any issues with this disease, but I would be willing to chip on for the cause. Has anyone set up a paypal account or started a thread on it? Personally I think getting to the bottom of this is in all betta lovers best interest.


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## Sakura8

So far, no. No one has set up anything yet. I think we were all waiting to see if we even had another case. I wish there was a way to sticky a notice that says something about reporting sick fish with the symptoms mentioned. A lot of people don't realize they may have had a possible case until well after the fish has passed and been buried. 

Thank you for helping out, Bettas Rule.


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## Bettas Rule

Sakura8 said:


> So far, no. No one has set up anything yet. I think we were all waiting to see if we even had another case. I wish there was a way to sticky a notice that says something about reporting sick fish with the symptoms mentioned. A lot of people don't realize they may have had a possible case until well after the fish has passed and been buried.
> 
> Thank you for helping out, Bettas Rule.


No problem! If the situation present itself let me know so I can chip in! :-D


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## Myates

There may be another case of it- Here
This thread makes me check over Xander all the time now


----------



## Bettas Rule

Myates said:


> There may be another case of it- Here
> This thread makes me check over Xander all the time now


I sure hope not


----------



## Sakura8

We'll have to keep an eye on that one. So far, it doesn't look like it's progressing fast enough. With this particular disease, the graphite/black covers the fins and body within hours.


----------



## xXbrokencrownXx

I definitely feel like this should be made into a sticky. I have my prized blue and red HM boy and now I'm going to be checking on him so much more often since he's in a community tank and not super near me like my other boy in his 2 gallon. I want to know what this is!


----------



## Hisaki Yuki001

OMG... The picture of Pitluv's Betta's fins look like what my Roho's fins looked like before they disintegrated. The only difference is he is a red Plakat and at first I thought it was fin rot. Within two days his left pectoral fin was gone and half of his bottom fin. he had no signs of fin rot on his pectoral fin the days prier, he just refused to use it to much. He also had a scratch on his side that turned white and a little cottony. I was thinking it's Columnaris. I went to the store but they were out of Maracyn I & II. A lady there gave me Nitrifuranzone and I have been using that with AQ salt. It started to look better the first day or two, but it's still progressing slowly. I'm now trying a double does of the meds and am going to up the salt to 2 1/2 3 tsp per gallon. 

I can't say if it's the same disease, but it's ticking me off. I always keep my guys in really well maintained tanks and I've dealt with and cured fin-rot many times before. I just hope I can save him.


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## miish

I think this is what got my fish too  He died within a day, all the same symptoms. I'll post pictures asap. I just got to download them off my phone. 

I'm sad I didn't find this thread before I disposed of my fish, I live ON a university (UBC) >.< I probably could have talked to some biologists... I'm a Canadian option for sending fish too I guess. I would have to figure out what to do first though, I'm not in biology or anything so I don't have any contacts, but I'm sure it wouldn't be thaat hard. Anyways yeah I'll post pictures up asap.
*
Edit:*
















There he is and this is how it went for me:
I woke up one morning before class and did his 100% water change, I noticed a little bit of black on the edges of his tail fins (he was a double tail) and one spot near the middle of his tail. I called my parents and asked them to pick up AQ salt since I had read that thats how you treat fin rot. Well when I came back from class his tail was ALL greyish black. This was only in a span of about 8 hours. I started the salt treatments right away and hope for the best the next morning.. Well it was bad in the morning, his fins were basically disintegrating there were pieces of his fins scatter in the tank ! They were also much darker, basically black now and it had started on his bottom fin. He also couldn't swim right, he kept floating vertically and couldn't hold himself horizontal (SBD?) I did another water change and more salt treatments but I could tell he was on his last moments :'(... I went to class again that day and when I came back he was gone.. took about 24 hours from first signs to death.


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## inkrealm

not sure how eaten up they typically were... but the description definitely fits.... :/ 
I'm just curious... do you guys know the origins of all these fish?.... like did any of them come from good rep breeders or were they all pet store?..... and if any of them were good breeders, were they descendants of pet store?...


----------



## Hisaki Yuki001

inkrealm said:


> not sure how eaten up they typically were... but the description definitely fits.... :/
> I'm just curious... do you guys know the origins of all these fish?.... like did any of them come from good rep breeders or were they all pet store?..... and if any of them were good breeders, were they descendants of pet store?...


I'm still not sure if this is the same disease I'm dealing with as my guy is still trying to hold on, but a lot of the symptoms are the same. I got my little guy 4-5 months ago at Petco. I'm not sure what breeder they go with. As fare as meds go, I've only ever used betta revive, AQ salt and now Nitrifuranzone on him. I use the 3i filters with there cartridges with extra filter pads on them from the tetra 10 gallon filter pads. The additives I use are Aquasafe, a little AQ salt and StartZyme. The foods I've feed are Hirkari pellts; In the past, Aqua Culture Betta pellets, Tetra Betta pellets and TetraMin crushed Tropical Crisps. I also only use treated city tap water.

I'm thinking if it's not something they came with from the store or caught from in the water, could it be possible that something we usaully use or feed could have gotten contaminated? 

I'm thinking though that if that disease is a bacterial disease or virus, it could potentially effect other colored Bettas in different ways. I was looking at pictures online of necrotic fins in freshwater fish and came across a forum about Columnaris with a picture of a goldfish that looked like the Betta in this forum. If it is a type of Columnaris, it would make since for the rapid deaths of the little guys. I know there's two different types of this disease, but even so, it's racking my brain at how fast this happened and why it's so hard to treat/ still trying to get worse.


----------



## Sakura8

Miish, yes, that fits the bill of this mystery disease.  I'm so sorry about your loss and we'll definitely keep you in mind for a Canadian option for testing. 

Hisaki, I'm in agreement with you and others that this may possibly be a very very aggressive form of columnaris. But it's also possible it's some form of iridovirus (sp?). So hard to know. I hope your guy makes it.


----------



## Hisaki Yuki001

Sakura8 said:


> Miish, yes, that fits the bill of this mystery disease.  I'm so sorry about your loss and we'll definitely keep you in mind for a Canadian option for testing.
> 
> Hisaki, I'm in agreement with you and others that this may possibly be a very very aggressive form of columnaris. But it's also possible it's some form of iridovirus (sp?). So hard to know. I hope your guy makes it.


Thankyou. I'm just going to try keeping him going and try everything I can. I hope everything works out as well. I was thinking it might be some form of iridovirus as well. It's definitely not like anything I've encountered before and the symptoms are just weird. Thank god I got Nitrifuranzone in time as the salt treatments seemed to not effect it the days prior. And thank god I had a sealed divided tank so nothing can be passed to my other little guy, Mr. Moto as he is immune-compromised.


----------



## inkrealm

has anyone heard of Neomycin? someone on here and a different site had a blue female betta with a similar issue.... ofcourse the fish was female so it may have been different... but it might be worth a shot next case we get if we can manage... she said her fish showed improvement with it....

and Hisaki- yikes...  I'm glad your other boy didn't get it... that would have been even more horrible....


----------



## Hisaki Yuki001

inkrealm said:


> not sure how eaten up they typically were... but the description definitely fits.... :/
> I'm just curious... do you guys know the origins of all these fish?.... like did any of them come from good rep breeders or were they all pet store?..... and if any of them were good breeders, were they descendants of pet store?...


Sorry, I posted earlier that he was bought from Petco. He actually was bought from Prues's a while back and they said they had actually breed some imported Betta to theirs. With Indigo passing on me today I must've posted wrong on accident without thinking about it. Indigo was from Petco but died of something else.


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## Sakura8

You can get neomycin in this form, as Seachem NeoPlex. I wonder if Seachem Kanaplex would have an effect then? Both are prescription grade medications. Too bad they pretty much have to be ordered online. By the time the product arrives, the fish is dead. 

http://www.kensfish.com/product2839.html


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## greenfishfl

i think one of my fish has that because one side is dark like that and the other side is blue still and the dark side wasnt like that


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## Sakura8

Welcome to the forum, greenfishfl. Can you post a pic of your fish?


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## greenfishfl

dont know how


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## greenfishfl

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## greenfishfl




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## greenfishfl

whats that?


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## BetterBetta

@ Greenfishfl, your fish looks like a marble based on the first picture, and its just a type of color. I can't see anything in the second photo though.

Also I'm sorry for any bettas that have been affected by this unknown disease ):


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## greenfishfl

in the second photo top left looks likes bubbles but dont know how they got there?


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## Sakura8

greenfishfl, BetterBetta is right, fortunately, it looks like your betta is just marbling. It's hard to tell from the photos but it definitely isn't this mystery disease so you are lucky. If your betta is having any other symptoms of illness though, I recommend starting a thread in the disease section so lots of people can help you. 

And if you have a filter, sometimes they spew out bubbles, especially if they haven't been cleaned in a while. Mine does.


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## greenfishfl

k thanks and umm the pic of the fish hes always at the bottom and he never eats


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## 1fish2fish

That fish has severe fin rot. His caudal fin is almost completely eaten away. You need to bump the temperature of the tank up to about 82-84* and begin feeding more often as well as doing daily water changes. Add 1tsp of aquarium salt per gallon also and keep it at that salinity until you begin seeing re-growth.


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## greenfishfl

well thanks ima change it today and some of it isnt fin rot i have 2 betas first day was my mistake let them together for a lil bit and my other beta was messing his fins up.also he looked a lil bit like that at the store thats why i chose him


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## Sakura8

You can tell if it's rot because the fins will be edged in black and look as if they are falling/melting off in chunks. Sometimes you will see red streaks in clear or white fins. Again, it's hard to tell from the pics.

greenfishfl, I suggest you post a thread in the disease section so we can discuss your betta's symptoms and find out what may be wrong with him.


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## maggie9059789

So hows it going?any further progress on this case yet? I've just stumbled upon this thread and i truely hope there's been more progress and that we'll know whats up real soon. Let me know if there's anything i can do to help.btw im in the vancouver ish area so yah just throwing it out there in case u guys needed something within this area since it is quite a popular & big city after all.


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## bastage

So I Figured I should chime in here.. I can confirm without a doubt that this is not exclusive to blue fish.. In the last 2 days I have lost 10 of my 12 female crowntails in my sorority. The colors ranges from white with teal marbling to black with red finnage. (blue, yellow & cambodian as well). 

When posting a photo on another forum a member suggested it was possibly neon tetra disease. Reading the symptoms this is very likely. I cant speak for the other cases, but I had recently added Neon's to the tank & one of them disappeared (presumably died & eaten by the other inhabitants). 

2 of the tetra's from the 4 I bought were moved to my Fluval Flora with my new "king betta" (Slurpee). He destroyed one of them a day later (the remaining was moved back to the sorority & is still alive). Given the timeline if the original neon carried the disease (which is a parasite) if the 2nd neon that was eaten did carry the parasite then Slurpee will likely show symptoms within the next day.


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## Sakura8

Neon tetra disease. That's interesting and a possibility we never considered, even though it's not a disease exclusive to neons. Hmm. *checks diseases book*

According to this, neon tetra disease is actually caused by an external parasite/protozoa. It says it affects tetras, barbs, angelfish, rasboras, guppies, and killifish but not anabantids. 

Did your neons lose their blue stripe when they got sick? I guess this is a characteristic of this disease. It also says columnaris can be mistaken for NTD and vice versa because of the white discoloration. 

I'm really sorry about all your fish, bastage.


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## bastage

Only one of the neon's that died did I see the remains of & he did loose his stripe. I Found other pictures online of other fish that had gotten NTD & several show the same kind of dis-colorization as the betta's, just most not to the same extent. But that said the reason we all like betta's is because of there vivid colors.


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## Sakura8

Yeah, I love being able to tell my bettas apart. I didn't even bother to name my neons because I was like, "What the heck, I don't know who's who anyway." Does sound like your neons got NTD. That's a major drag, I'm sorry about that.


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## bastage

Yea me too.. because that means slurpee is next & not only was he expensive but I bought him & drove with him for 700 miles (he was in a large slurpee cup instead of the stores little cup for the drive) to get him home in his new nicest of digs. Also one of the plants in his tank is fairly rare & I have never seen it for sale (was given to me by one of the members of a local fish forum who isnt so local, but I stopped by on my recent road trip).


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## youlovegnats

I'm pretty sure that Neon Tera Disease is only transferrable between Tetras. I've heard of Neons passing it to other Tetras in tanks...but never other species of fish.


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## PewPewPew

I believe it can spread to other types of fish, but never have I seen bettas been included in the ones it can be. I had tetras with NTD and looked into it hard.

I feel really bad about your tank, its a darn shame. Whatever it is, it needs strong, strrronnngg medicines against it. Something that will so readily eat away tissue needs something heavy to fight with.


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## youlovegnats

PewPewPew said:


> I believe it can spread to other types of fish, but never have I seen bettas been included in the ones it can be. I had tetras with NTD and looked into it hard.
> 
> I feel really bad about your tank, its a darn shame. Whatever it is, it needs strong, strrronnngg medicines against it. Something that will so readily eat away tissue needs something heavy to fight with.


I stand corrected.  
Thanks Pew!~


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## Sakura8

It seems NTD is transferred by a healthy fish eating contaminated flesh. Only some species of fish are susceptible to this disease: tetras, barbs, angelfish, rasboras, guppies, and killifish but not anabantids.


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## bastage

Sakura8 said:


> It seems NTD is transferred by a healthy fish eating contaminated flesh. Only some species of fish are susceptible to this disease: tetras, barbs, angelfish, rasboras, guppies, and killifish but *not anabantids*.


Can you site your source as what I am finding on it anabantids/anabantoids are not excluded. Also for a disease that so little is known about that's a pretty big "but".


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## 1fish2fish

It also says that NTD can be mistaken for columnaris which is what the tetra that brought down my sorority had.


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## Sakura8

Sure, hang on. My source is _*The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases*_ by Lance Jepson. Although, contrary to its title, it isn't all that simple.

The "not anabantids" is my addition, as they weren't on the list of fish affected. Here is the exact quote:
"_Plistophora_ can affect tetras, barbs, rasboras, and angelfish. I have seen similar problems in guppies and killifish (_Aphyosemion australe_)." (pg 119, Jepson) 

Again, as anabantoids were not on the list of those commonly affected, I chose to add them as more or less excluded. I believe it's probably not impossible for them to contract this disease but I also think it is very rare. But the only way to know for certain would be a skin scraping/tissue sample. If it is NTD, you would see protozoa. If it is flexibacter columnaris, you would see rod bacteria.


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## Sakura8

In another diseases book, *A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems* by Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey, and Peter Exell, again, among the fish species listed who have been known to contract NTD, anabantids aren't listed. This leads me to believe they aren't susceptible to this particular protozoa and that what you're experiencing in your tanks is a very nasty columnaris, bastage. I'm really sorry you lost so many fish and I hope Slurpee doesn't get sick too. I love his name.


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## Sakura8

bastage said:


> Can you site your source as what I am finding on it anabantids/anabantoids are not excluded. Also for a disease that so little is known about that's a pretty big "but".


Okay, so after further research, it appears that NTD generally only affects those in the characoid and cyprinid families. The cases of the guppies and killifish may or may not have been NTD. It only said they were "similar problems." This is why anabantids and for that matter, cichlids and catfish etc, are not affected by NTD. A disease that only affects certain families is not unusual. For instance, there are diseases that only affect koi or those of the carp family. 

I hope this info helps you, bastage.


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## Sakura8

DarkMoon, I don't know if you're still following this thread or not, but if you are, what do you know about the bacteria family _Vibrio_? From what I've read, many strains of it are flesh-eating bacteria that take hold fast. Could this possibly be a cause of our mystery disease? We've had another victim, another blue betta.


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## DarkMoon17

There have been few documented cases of Vibrio infecting freshwater fish, it typically only affects salt and brackish water fish. The skin can become discolored but from what I've read, there are usually red sores and bloody patches around the face and fins, which we have not been seeing. What we really need is a necropsy.


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## Tikibirds

I found this from Ontario Vetinary College:

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/content/7/4/273.full.pdf

Too much science for my taste but its a report about vibro in tropical freshwater fish in a home aquarium - guppies, loaches, corys and tiger barbs. Corys were imported from Holland and the guppies were from a LPS

The fish were in the tank 3 months before the outbreak :shock:


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## Sakura8

Thanks, DarkMoon and Tiki. You're right, definitely no red sores here. Just that strange graphite-color that takes over. 

Tiki, trying to get the link to load but my computer is being a slowpoke.


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## DarkMoon17

Thank you for the article Tiki, I can't believe he was able to get an entire lab to devote so many resources to his infestation. We need come of that! The only symptom mentioned was red lesions, which we aren't seeing. And his fish did not die nearly as rapidly as we are seeing. The likely cause of his problem was the fact that he had 30 fish in a 30 gallon tank that wasn't cycled and never did a water change in those 3 months!! My god! If he had properly cared for the fish they probably would have been able to fight off the infection on their own and they would never have showed symptoms at all...


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## Tikibirds

> The likely cause of his problem was the fact that he had 30 fish in a 30 gallon tank that wasn't cycled and never did a water change in those 3 months!


I though he had an awful lot of fish in his tank...


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## Sena Hansler

Well, my Riddle yesterday morning came down with severe raggy fins, being in a 3 gallon heated to 77 degrees. He died within 24 hours (euthanised), when it reached over 50% of his body o_o I do have stuff like Furan 2 and Maracyn 2 on hand, but it wouldn't have worked considering he lacked the time needed for it to kick in. I only have one blue boy left -.- I had thought of everything - but like Maine he had the healthy pink gills... I did a water change immediately, using the same tap water as I always do...

And no offense to the guy who had a 30 with 30 or so fish :shock: but any fish in a crowded tank are in high danger of any number of diseases and illnesses.


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## Sakura8

By the time I got the article to load, you guys had already commented on the crowded tank. :shock: As they say on Mythbusters, "Well, thar's yer problem."


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: :lol:


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## MrVampire181

Sena Hansler said:


> Well, my Riddle yesterday morning came down with severe raggy fins, being in a 3 gallon heated to 77 degrees. He died within 24 hours (euthanised), when it reached over 50% of his body o_o I do have stuff like Furan 2 and Maracyn 2 on hand, but it wouldn't have worked considering he lacked the time needed for it to kick in. I only have one blue boy left -.- I had thought of everything - but like Maine he had the healthy pink gills... I did a water change immediately, using the same tap water as I always do...
> 
> And no offense to the guy who had a 30 with 30 or so fish :shock: but any fish in a crowded tank are in high danger of any number of diseases and illnesses.


"Raggy fins"....These fish have long fins...it's going to happen sooner or later. To be completely honest you didn't even try. 

Further more there is no "Mystery disease". There are several factors involved with sudden fish deaths. Just because some fish die without showing signs of a known disease doesn't mean its the same cause for every single fish. 

Please stop spreading false information and guesses when people are relying on ACCURATE information. I have seen you spread nothing but hunches and guesses and I haven't said anything until now but the fact that you're euthanizing fish without an attempt to save them pushed me over the edge.

So if you have no way of proving your information don't spread it as fact. 

And if this gets reported...I don't care. Call me a bully, say I'm being rude. I honestly don't care. People with lots of knowledge get ignored but people who don't know what they're doing are worshiped here like they're the president of the IBC.


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## Sena Hansler

He was dying! I got home after work, and he was on his side gasping feebly. There was NOTHING left to do for him. For Maine, I tried and TRIED and gave him IAL, epsom salt, EVERYTHING I could to save his life and I tried for three days. so don't tell me I don't try. And no one here, is being worshipped, not an expert, not an inexperienced owner, not a mid-way experienced person, no one. STOP assuming, STOP bashing, and this goes out to all of you. I am not the only one tired of people getting mad. YES we get frustrated, that I understand. But to right out ACCUSE someone for "poorly caring for their fish" is wrong, and quite rude.

Im tired of people like this pushing away all the nice people. there are people leaving because yeah maybe they cannot take the heat but they shouldn't have to take the heat. Doesn's matter if I call it a mystery disease, it is not 100% confirmed, it does not have a 100% fool proof method to stop or prevent it, it hasn't bee 100% researched. It's two words. Get over it. It's not you, MrVampire, I don't actually have much of a problem with you. But I am so tired of seeing other people being accused, of myself being accused, ESPECIALLY when I have come SO far by being on this site
-end rant-

thank you, and have a wonderful day


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## MrVampire181

I never said you took bad care of your fish.


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## LionCalie

The only people leaving are the experienced members who have been around a while. Why? Because anytime they post something that's not all rainbows and butterflies they get, "Stop picking on me and being mean!!!" No one accused you of poorly caring for your fish.


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## dramaqueen

If we can't discuss this in a civil manner then I'm closing the thread. I am REALLY tired of all the arguements and accusations. If you don't like what has been posted then stay off the darn thread!!!


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## Sena Hansler

No no MrVampire, I wasn't directing that one from you at me ^.^ Like I said I literally have no problems with you. I'm just tired of all the conflict on here. Why not just say "actually, they call it _______" or "actually, I find that _____ is a better treatment because...." instead of "no you're wrong"?

I thought this forum was for opinionating, asking for help, giving help, and learning frome experience. correct me if I am wrong.


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## Tikibirds

> Further more there is no "Mystery disease".


Several people have said this. OK..than what is the name of the disease? I have yet to see anyone who says its all made up point out exactly what killed those fish based off of scientific evidance and not just your own opinion.


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## Sena Hansler

+1 

Plus the "mystery disease" name is the only one I can remember x) it's hit 3 blues here, same supplier. I'm going to see if the manager here, can talk to his supplier and at least warn him there is a wonky disease striking his bettas - I know he is not purposely breeding it, but it is possible to have it pop up afterwards, without him even knowing what happened, or know it even happened at all o_o


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## LionCalie

Why does every thread have to be closed when people start expressing their opinions, in a calm manner even?


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## Sena Hansler

Here is a question. Is there an actual place, that the (sorry to say those two words) mysery illness bettas (dead) can be sent to, in preservative? so that there can be research done on the fish? If more people know about it, then more research can be done to fully determine it. Although, I swear if Shadow gets it I'm dosing him with Maracyn 2 -.- He's my last blue


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## MrVampire181

No place would bother with it anyway.

One word...Necrosis...just google it.


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## TheCrysCat

Sena Hansler said:


> Im tired of people like this pushing away all the nice people.


Lol


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## Sena Hansler

-did google it- .... -edits google to necrosis FISH- not people -.- one, says it is columnaris. But I watched a poor betta die in the store from columnaris, and it looked nothing like it o.o or is it saying it is a form of columnaris?
And a question. it says it originated from trout and salmon. How did it get to be, with fish like Bettas?


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## Tikibirds

> Why does every thread have to be closed when people start expressing their opinions, in a calm manner even?


probably because it IS an opinion and some people just can't handle it when someone else has something different to say. It's not just here, it's pretty much happens on every forum. When opinions get involved, it usually doesn't stay to calm for long. Plus there is usually a rift between Oldbies of the forums and NoObs. People who have been around longer sometimes resent new members and everything they have to say.


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## Richard

i am new here. i agree that civil disagreements are a wonderfu;l way for everybody to learn and share experiences, the phrase " but the fact that you're euthanizing fish without an attempt to save them pushed me over the edge" is quite intemperate. disagreeing ( a construcive thing) does not mean fllaming.

having said that i actually gotr alot out of the thread, which after all is the purpose of a forum.


richard


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