# 75 gallon project tank



## hrutan

Original thread starts here.

Moved it over to Journals, since I want to document my progress.


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## hrutan

I've brought the whole tank inside and set it on its stand. The new sealant should arrive later today, so to kill time I decided to do a more detailed cleaning than the bleach-and-water disinfectant scrub I gave it earlier.



Found a couple small chips in the glass. Nothing that I think will affect the integrity of the tank.

Anyone know how to clean this glass panel? I went over it with baking soda and water, no dice. Afraid to push down too hard, and there's no way to remove it from the tank.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Soak in white vinegar for 12 hours then scrub (since you can't remove it you can soak it by wrapping it in vinegar soaked paper towels)


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## hrutan

Hmm. I suppose I could try soaking a cloth in it, then resting the cloth on the glass...that'd stink up the whole house, though. The problem is I can't remove it to soak it properly.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Hmmm... It'll be a while before you add a fish right? I hate to say it but try CLR followed by bleach then rinse it a million times


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## hrutan

CLR? I'm afraid I'm kind of clueless when it comes to acronyms. Commercial cleaner? That makes me so nervous :-(


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## hrutan

The new sealant came! Using this stuff. Got the big bottle, so I can use it for other projects as well.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

It's a calcium lime and rust cleaner, usually sold in a green spray bottle to clean kitchens. Gets rid of hard water, soap scum, calcium, lime, rust, and most other grime. When I think industrial I think like goop-off, that's toxic. 
Oh you can also get a little thing of pure acetone from cvs (or a high concentrate acetone nail polish remover) since the acetone will evaporate into the air within half an hour. It's amazing for stripping paint and grime, even takes off glue, not very toxic just smelly for half an hour.


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## hrutan

Oh, I have acetone in SPADES. That's a great idea! I'll try it out right away!


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## hrutan

Acetone didn't budge the marks; I'm trying to decide if I care enough to pop out the panel. It appears the previous owner stuck it in place with gobs of sealant. It's in a useful place, and I'm not sure I have the dexterity to replace it if I take it out.

Meanwhile, I'm removing the old sealant from the sides and bottom. The scraper I'm using was labeled a "handy scraper" at the Rite-aid, and boy, is it handy. Even so, it's a difficult job.

There's almost no sealant along the side seams of the tank. I'll probably be a bit more generous. There's no need to be messy, but stinginess might've created that suspected leak.


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## hrutan

I'm an idiot. Ha! I was trying to get that rubbery old sealant out, and it sticks to the glass but not to my fingers or towels or ANYTHING other than the stupid tank. So my husband says, "Hey, maybe it floats."

So I pour a bunch of water in the tank. It helps wipe the stuff up, yay. And then I realize...I've poured a BUNCH OF WATER IN THE TANK... which I've just peeled the sealant off of.

**Scrambles for a towel!**


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## Jonthefish

That couldn't sound anymore like somthing I would do ! lol . 

I lost my underwater camera in the ocean because genius me I supposed that if it is an underwater camera that it would float too ... Nope . xD

Subscribed I would like to hear more :3


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## hrutan

After I got all the big bits of sealant out, and I couldn't scrape out any more, I followed the package directions and cleaned the seams with rubbing alcohol. Turns out, that dissolved all but the biggest remaining chunks, so if you ever have to do this, don't panic...it'll come out with a bit of work.

Use those round cotton pads used to remove nail polish, instead of cotton balls. PERFECT for the purpose!


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## Veloran

hrutan said:


> I'm an idiot. Ha! I was trying to get that rubbery old sealant out, and it sticks to the glass but not to my fingers or towels or ANYTHING other than the stupid tank. So my husband says, "Hey, maybe it floats."
> 
> So I pour a bunch of water in the tank. It helps wipe the stuff up, yay. And then I realize...I've poured a BUNCH OF WATER IN THE TANK... which I've just peeled the sealant off of.
> 
> **Scrambles for a towel!**


Sounds like a couple of friends of mine who did an oil change on one of their cars. After wondering why the car was taking so much oil, they both asked each other "You did replace the drain plug, didn't you?".


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## myexplodingcat

hrutan said:


> I'm an idiot. Ha! I was trying to get that rubbery old sealant out, and it sticks to the glass but not to my fingers or towels or ANYTHING other than the stupid tank. So my husband says, "Hey, maybe it floats."
> 
> So I pour a bunch of water in the tank. It helps wipe the stuff up, yay. And then I realize...I've poured a BUNCH OF WATER IN THE TANK... which I've just peeled the sealant off of.
> 
> **Scrambles for a towel!**


That... that... sounds like something I would do. XD


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## hrutan

Veloran said:


> Sounds like a couple of friends of mine who did an oil change on one of their cars. After wondering why the car was taking so much oil, they both asked each other "You did replace the drain plug, didn't you?".


Haha. We all have our derp moments!

The tank should be nice and dry by now. I'm going to seal it today, since I'm still stuck at home. Hubby should be able to get up and move around by himself tomorrow, so I'm taking the chance to do some work at home while I can. :-D


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## hrutan

Re-checked everything before I open the sealant, and discovered I'd missed a corner. Removed that stuff, cleaned everything with alcohol, and now I'm all set.

I'm not going to redo the top of the tank. It would be smart, but I have two things working against me: T-Rex arms (no leverage), and the tank is too heavy for me to turn on my own. The seal does look pretty good, though. There's one iffy spot, which I'll keep an eye on. I suspect that IF there was a leak, it was due to the previous owner trimming away too much along the sides. There was almost nothing for me to remove on the side edges, but gobs of sealant at the bottom ones.


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## hrutan

I managed to seal the tank. It wasn't a neat or pretty job, but it's done. The bottle said uncured sealant smells "a lot like vinegar." Well, yeah. Definitely. But it's also a godawful nauseating stench cloud that is so foul that I might've thrown up if I had eaten breakfast. And the smell is _following me_. Seriously. After I'm done with this post, I've gotta go change clothes!

Do this outside or in a garage, people. BARF. "Product cures in 5 minutes. Smell dissipates shortly after." Define shortly? Please?

Anyway - here's a couple of photos. My job ranged from neat to downright sloppy depending on how well I could reach, and I'll have to do a bunch of work with a razor tomorrow to clean things up. A caulking gun is difficult to use when 8 year olds have bigger hands than me. I'm confident everything's sealed up, though.

Best:



Worst:


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## hrutan

I'm having a hell of a time scraping off the excess sealant. Either too much comes off, or the sealant merges back together as though I'd never made a cut. It's been plenty of time for everything to dry, so... I think it's just me.

Pondering: Should I just scrape everything I did off, buy smaller tubes of sealant that I can squeeze with my hands, and redo it? That's about where I am, at this point. It's so frustrating!

Alternately, I give it another couple of days until the stuff is REALLY hardened, and have another go at trimming it down.


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## cmwong27

I'll admit that I laughed super hard when I read about this tank's former life. I got my tank new, but even in Humboldt County I haven't heard of using a fish tank...

All the fuss with the sealant will be totally worth it when you have a beautiful huge tank!


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## hrutan

Haha, well...you know. A garage, adequate lighting...fish tanks...I'm wondering how "medical" it was, if you know what I mean. But hey, not my business, not my problem.

I think I _will _scrape it all off and start over. Might as well get it perfect the first time. It's not like I'm going to want to empty it out later.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

If the caulk gun doesn't work you can get some of those jumbo Popsicle/craft sticks (like 5" long 1" wide) and use that to apply/smooth the seal. It might take a little longer but it'll be consistent.


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## hrutan

That's what I'm thinking. That, or squeeze tubes. The problem is I have really, really tiny little hands. I'm not _that _short (5'3"), but my husband and roomie do tease me every now and then, and I can't reach stuff at the grocery store. :lol: It seems a little silly, but I'm surrounded by people that are 5'10" and up.

Why do they make so few tools for women? I'm the handy one in this house! Well...I am if I can reach...or get my fingers around the handles...


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I have tiny hands even though I'm 5'7" so I know your pain, i wear kids gloves 
If you can't find the Popsicle sticks you can cut cardboard to shape maybe


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## hrutan

I think we have popsicle sticks somewhere.


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## hrutan

Went ahead and bought 4 tubes of this:
http://www.amazon.com/Marineland-31003-Silicone-2-8-Ounce-85-05-Gram/dp/B000255OAE/

The smaller tubes ought to be easier for me to use, they have good reviews, and they were 50% off. Can't beat that combination. There should be plenty to do the job, and plenty left over for other projects. I'd like to make my own decorations, since I had to toss the last 3 that I bought in a store. They reeked like paint and chemicals after a mere week submerged. Sealant has both the rubbery texture I'm looking for, and there's no question about it being safe for fish.

Now to find some popsicle sticks. Oh, no. I may have to eat a popsicle! **cries herself to sleep**

On a side note: My 10 gallon aquarium is planted! Hooray!! Sorry for the crooked picture. Sometimes I stand crooked and don't notice unless someone nudges me - or there's photographic evidence. Everything's a little cloudy right now. I spent a bunch of time rooting around.

Looking forward to seeing those plants establish. Thinking about taking out the gravel - most of it is very, very smooth, but I've heard it's not good for corys. Any insight?


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

If you want me to make you tank decor and seal it in resin pm me with a design. And instead of taking out all the gravel ,which the plants will like, why not only remove half and add a layer of smooth rocks or sand?


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## hrutan

There's only a thin layer of gravel at the top, the rest is substrate which self-sorted to finest grains at the bottom, and larger kind of "mini pebbles" at the top. There's black gravel in there that was tumbled and polished, which I really like because it has no rough edges. The red gravel does have some corners and pointy bits, so that's what I'm worried about. I was thinking about just taking out that stuff. It would leave the surface as a mix of smooth gravel and very large grain sand/very very tiny rocks.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I'm sure it'll be ok, if worse comes to worse you can always remove it


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## hrutan

The new sealant arrived today. Freddy Nine-Fingers will keep watch over it until I'm ready.



The tubes are just the right size for my hands. Thank goodness. Yeah, I had to pay more, but it was worth it for ease of use.



Getting myself a popsicle stick in time honored fashion. This popsicle rocks, and it's just the thing for me right now. I just washed my car, and it's hot out. The ingredients: fresh lime juice, water, sugar, citric acid, color.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

=3


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## hrutan

Ah man, I'm doing it outside this time, and it's hotter than blue blazes out there. Doing a last once-over with a razor before I clean it with alcohol. Our temperature inside is set to 80, and it feels so cool and nice.


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## hrutan

Well, that couldn't have gone any better. The smaller sealant bottle was easy to use, it went on the surface clean, and the popsicle stick smoothed it to be perfect and beautiful. The hardest part was cleaning it. Application went very quickly. Thanks for your suggestion, Bikeridinguckgirl14.

Went back to take a picture and discovered I'd missed the front right seam. Derrrrrrp. Fortunately, I had _plenty _of sealant left.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

That looks professional, good job!


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## DaytonBetta

Looks great!


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## hrutan

The 75 gallon should be ready to test for leaks tonight. Wish me luck...the seal looks really good, so hopefully I won't need it. Going to try baking soda + white vinegar for those hard water stains on the top panel. I get paid in 1 week - going to look into a filter and maybe glass panels then.

On the work front - the anacharis decided it would melt and make a huge mess, so I decided to take it out and bring in some duckweed from home. Having trouble with water quality, and there's no signs yet of this little tank cycling. There's also some ucky white **** that has to get scrubbed away.

Naturally enough, since I needed to do some work on the tank, Buttercup presented me with his very first full-sized bubble nest. It made me feel like dirt to mess it up.



Well, he's young...he'll build another.


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## hrutan

Well, this is turning into a sort of general journal. Progress on the 75 is going to be slow due to money concerns, and yet there's so much to say!

For some reason, I forgot that just because there's a lid, doesn't mean the gap between the divider and the top is somehow impregnable. I put too much water in the work tank and, as far as I can tell, Buttercup jumped the divider and got the crap beat out of him by the older, meaner Mr. Kitty. When he tried to escape, he got caught between the divider and the tank wall until I freed him. Mr. Kitty was free to shred Buttercup's fins as much as he pleased.

The damage:

Shreddy McShredded Fins's unexpectedly pretty hospital tank. I stole one of the Java ferns from Phoenix's future tank and used some clean river rocks. By sheer chance, they set off the color of Buttercup's scales perfectly. Wondering if the lid will let enough light through for the Java fern and duckweed to thrive, or if I should lower the water level and take off the lid, or cover it with Saran wrap instead?


EDIT:
Unexpected bonus - the lighting is different at home. Buttercup has an iridescent green/turquoise sheen under the light everywhere except the pure white border of his fins. He's so beautiful...minus the unsightly wounds, of course.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

As long as there's a light on the tank the plants will be fine, poor buttercup will have clear fin regrowth up to 1mm at a time, and will be fully healed in 3-5 months


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## hrutan

I'm _extremely _tempted to keep him in there, if my husband will let me. I have another 3 gallon Kritter Keeper stashed somewhere - another heater & thermometer, and I'll still have a back up tank...;-)


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Resist my friend!


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## hrutan

Hmm, but if he let me keep Buttercup, I could do more things to the 5 gallon at work. Maybe put in a couple of snails...change up the substrate to sand and get a ghost shrimp... switch out the bulb for something better and add more plants... I'd owe my boss 10 bucks though. 

First thing I want to do is switch out that stupid filter. Hmmph. There really should have been _some _kind of change in water chemistry by now, and I'm inclined to blame that crappy filter for being crappy.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Eeehhhh it took archy's 2.5g a month to get to the nitrate part of the cycle


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## hrutan

Patience is the hardest part.


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## hrutan

Mr. Kitty's tank looked horribly empty without the divider, the dying anacharis, and Buttercup, so I gave it a little remodel this morning. Nice surprise: I went to buy a couple of Java ferns, got them back to work, and discovered they'd been bundled in sets of two.

It's nice that Java Fern pretty much sinks on its own. I don't have anything decent to tie it to in that tank, so I squished some gravel around it without burying it, and it seems to be staying in place.

Mr. Kitty is busy ZOOMING as per usual, so he doesn't show up real well in this shot. He's in front of the filter.


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## hrutan

Oh, and on a random note - I had a chat with one of the cashiers at the local pet store. Apparently the manager is a big betta enthusiast, which explains how wonderfully healthy their bettas are. The cashier has a 3 year old betta of her own, which she's worried about, so I invited her to come visit us here. Hopefully, she will. 

I warned her about the sorority tank of females that they had on display. The tank was plenty big, but there weren't nearly enough hiding places and there were some chunks bitten out of some of their tails. She said she'd felt the same way and would relay that information for me. We'll see what happens.

On another random note, I spotted an orange and white veiltail that looked like Phoenix's twin. He's _zooming _in this pic. They have him in with their aquatic plant display, which must be like some kind of betta palace, the tank is so huge.

He's orange, with a pretty white border on all of his fins. You can see a little of it in this pic. Sorry for the blur - he wouldn't hold still for me. He did look a little clamped - I think the water was a little too cold for him. Most of the squished-down look is from zooming, though.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Aww you could have gotten a Phoenix for home and a pheonix for work, like he was always with you


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## hrutan

Haha, naaa. Variety is the spice of life! I have my handsome blue boy, my gorgeous-yet-tattered platinum butterfly(??), and soon my tough orange survivor. I'm feeling content with that number...it will hold me until I venture into breeding in a couple of years.


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## cmwong27

I don't know if the manager at my LFS loves bettas as much as yours, but they are in constant supply with fairly expensive morphs pretty frequently. I have to talk myself into getting more ALL THE TIME. Just keep telling myself "You don't have the space. You don't have the space. You don't have the space."


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## hrutan

I keep trying not to look and then wandering by anyway! Haha.


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## hrutan

Back from vacation. Buttercup is still looking healthy in his QT tank. He'd had some redness along the edge of one of his torn fins, and it looks like that has mostly cleared up. Gave him a 90% water change and a tank makeover. Re-added the java fern and pebbles after giving the rocks a thorough scrub with bleach, rinsing, and then giving a thorough rinse with water with extra conditioner to neutralize any leftovers.

The water's a little cloudy. I'm thinking about picking up a small sponge filter on my lunch break to clear it up. It doesn't seem to be bothering Buttercup - he's swimming around like he always does, with no clamping or gasping, but there's no point in taking chances, and the 3g really should be filtered, anyway.

In the future, I think I'll stick to bettas with color. I hadn't realized how I like being able to monitor color as an additional indicator of stress along with body language, and Buttercup's platinum and white can't really get any paler.

Speaking of color, I got back to work to find Mr. Kitty's tank utterly pristine. My work pet sitter did a good job. I'd scraped off algae on Wednesday, which hasn't returned, and Mr. Kitty is such a rich royal blue that he almost looks black when he's out of the light. The very tips of his ventrals have turned white. They were clear before, or maybe just not as bright. It looks striking.

I think I see regrowth on his tail. At least, I hope that's what's going on back there. I'll just have to keep an eye on it. The little butt won't let me take a picture. He never will. It also looks suspiciously like he took a new chunk out of his tail, but in a different spot. **sighs**

Still haven't cleaned the glass on the 75g. I have a little leftover Vegas money and I'm trying to decide what equipment to get. I wanted to get a lid next, but I realized that if I have an all-glass lid, there's nowhere for electrical cords to run through...how do people manage that? I'd go lidless, but my cats are idiots, and I don't want to find one drowned in the aquarium.


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## hrutan

Stopped by a little neighborhood pet shop yesterday. I'd expected something kind of "meh," maybe a little dingy and crowded the way these things often are. Heck, the last one I stopped by was stunning inside -- except the betta cups, of course.

I didn't expect a fish death house, and if I knew diddly about reptiles they probably wouldn't be much better. My stomach hurt when I left. All of the bettas and goldfish were in dirty water - the bettas were in vases with big stalks of bamboo in them, and left swimming around the roots - I have no idea about whether it would theoretically improve water quality, but since it didn't look clean, it probably wasn't. And one of the bettas was _emaciated_. If I had a place to put him...but I don't. I _really _don't, even though I keep seeing him. My hospital tank is occupied and my 10g is still cycling and belongs to Mr. Phoenix. I don't remember (or even know) what color the poor guy was, just the shape of his body from above...<>---- not <>==--

Life sucks sometimes. :-(

As for the glass panel with hard water stains on the 75g - OMG. I've tried baking soda and water, I've tried white vinegar, I've tried both in combination. I tried soaking paper towels in vinegar, wrapping the glass with it, and then sealing it with plastic wrap so it'd stay wet, then leaving it for 24 hours.

Nothing has worked. It's terribly frustrating!


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

You can resort to bleach or a hard water cleaner


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## hrutan

I finally had the chance (oh, Time, you are so fleeting) to get the 75 outside and test my handiwork for leaks last night. Nothing so far, but it's gonna stay out there for a couple of days to be sure.


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## Olympia

Have you tried the razor? (the one you used for scraping silicon). If they are thick that should take em off...


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## hrutan

I have! I've tried everything that I can think of. The thick stuff I was able to scrape off with a razor, but the glass still looks cloudy and stained with what looks like water marks. There's absolutely no texture, it's perfectly smooth with no scratches or anything. The stains are clearly on the top and bottom surface, or I'd be thinking at this point that the glass is just like that. 

I've tried bleach. I've tried white vinegar. I've tried baking soda and water, baking soda and vinegar, I've soaked it in vinegar for a full day...I really, really don't want to use some kind of industrial cleaner on it, so at this point it's just gonna be aggravating.


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## Olympia

You can erode a bit with sand paper. It will scrape off glass and cause scratches, so you'd have to be really careful with it. Basically suggesting you remove a very thin layer of glass from your tank. Might not be the best idea but if you are really frustrated by it...  The marks on the inside may also disappear when the tank is filled.


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## hrutan

I might have some extra extra extra (super!) fine sandpaper somewhere...it won't look any _worse_, anyway. Haha.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

Have you tried CLR? My dad used a small amount of it on my tank to remove white calcium and scratches on my tank. It worked fairly well, you just have to make sure you rinse the heck out of the tank after you use it.


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## hrutan

I thought about it, and decided to pass. Scrubbing the whole thing if I accidentally drip or splash seems intimidating, and there are spots where I have really bad leverage because I can barely reach.


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## hrutan

Gonna go shopping today! My roommate and I are going to go check out a couple of tropical fish specialty stores that we haven't been to yet. My results so far from this kind of expedition have been mixed - aside from my usual, kindly regarded LPS, I've been to one other (which turned out to be horrible), and one specialty aquarium shop (everything was beautiful but the bettas).

Seriously, I don't get this. If your specialty is aquariums, and every tank you have gleams like a jewel, and your fish are vibrant and healthy, you've gotta know what their basic needs are. _So why wouldn't you clean the betta cups?_ Sheesh!

Anyway, a shopping list:
Flourish & root tabs (I keep forgetting these somehow)
Nerite Snails (0 for 3 on these(most common answer is, "huh?"))
Malaysian Trumpet Snails (0 for 3 on these)
Aquarium lid for the 75g. I need somewhere that does them custom, which is why we're cruising fish shops.

If I can't find what I want...well, I live in Los Angeles. I'll be able to find it eventually, the question is just _where_.


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## hrutan

SUCCESS! I forgot the root tabs, but I did get the flourish and threw the first dose in the 10 gallon. Must remember to dose on Saturdays...

Found a place that sells Nerite snails. Now I have to decide whether to buy them. Saw a rather magnificent giant betta at the same place. If I were to buy him (which I will not, unless my husband randomly falls in love with the picture) I would call him Goliath. He was very attentive and responsive. I'd love to have him, but I value my marriage more. 



That place also can provide the appropriate size glass aquarium lid. They just need interior measurements, so I'll go back tomorrow. And stare at Goliath while I'm there...

FOUND MALAYSIAN TRUMPET SNAILS! WOOOHOOO!
This was at a totally different shop. The shopkeeper was like, "You want those? Um, really? Okay...a dollar a dozen. Honey, get scraping." LOL.

A couple of them turned out to be a very pretty white.



When I let them know the betta cups needed cleaning, and one of the fish was gasping, the wife shopkeeper got right on it. I'll be going back to this store.

After this victory, we stopped by the Home Depot to pick up organic potting soil and some sand. It's time to build a snail farm.


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## tankman12

Make sure you get some assassin snails for those MTS. They will take over the tank and become out of control. I found that most loaches will not eat the snails after a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Olympia

Snails won't get out of control unless you overfeed your tank..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tankman12

They will get out of control, trust me. They are malaysian trumpets, ever have them? It is impossible for them to not get out of control, even if you dont overfeed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Olympia

They can't get out of control if they don't eat... I have them too...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tankman12

Okay, i guess if you feed like 3 flakes a week then not. But they will eat dead plant matter, and even some types of algae. In a planted community they will get food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattsBettas

Have to second Oli here... If you're having an explosion, you're either over feeding or there's another source of food like dying plant material (which there shouldn't be). I've kept MTS, ramshorn, and have had pond (but I stopped those cuz I didn't want them). None get out of control if fed responsably...

No need for assassins...


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## Olympia

If you have overpopulated snails your tanks are too dirty!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tankman12

I dont over feed and dont have much dead plant matter. There is a bunch. I also started with 3 in my shellies tank, no dead plant matter, and dont feed much. They are everywhere. Plus if they dont get enough food, they can start eating some plants.
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## Olympia

You should be thanking them for cleaning your tank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tankman12

Okay i do water changes every other day. Plus i have over filtration. I just pointed something out that happens quite often. My tanks are probably cleaner than yours. There was no need for your comments, Moderator.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hrutan

No worries. It's all good! I WANT a population explosion right now, and I value them for how they will aerate my soil in the 75g later.

It all depends on your point of view about snails, I guess. Aside from the common pond snail, I think they're all adorable, with their pokey little antennae and valiant efforts to haul their shells into the weirdest positions. If I get too many, I'll just cull them. Snail traps are pretty easy to make...besides, there's at least a few people here on this forum that would be perfectly happy to take the spares off my hands. :-D I was so thrilled to find Ramshorns in one of my plant orders!!

If you're having big snail problems, TankMan, blanch a piece of lettuce, carrot, cucumber, or other mild vegetable and stick it in a small jar at the bottom of the tank. Snails will fill the jar up overnight, and you can just throw them away. Do that a few times, and your excess will be taken care of for a week or so. It's easy. 

My still-cloudy snail paradise:


I added a heavy ceramic cup with a blanched bit of watermelon rind, so that when they get over their confusion, there will be food waiting.


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## tankman12

That is a good idea! But i just got some assassins so they will start eating them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Once you get overloaded I'll take a few red/pink/blue


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## hrutan

Yeah I figured there'd be some interest ^_^ I'm setting things up to breed both types of snails. The Ramshorns will have to wait until they color up so that I can sort them. The Malaysians seemed to come in white, earthy brown, and partial green. I'm not sure if that's the color of their shell or algae that grew on them, but breeding for white seems intriguing. The color is very beautiful.


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## Olympia

Hmm yeah. I don't have any white MTS.. that sounds cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

I love my leopard, pinks and blue ramshorns. They have recently all bred in the hospital tank and their babies are all over it. It's amazing to see these tiny snails the size of pinheads crawl across the tank walls. I would love to get some more blue and pink ones also. White MTS snails sound great too! I could have an entire pastel rainbow in my tanks, muahahahha! Let me know when you get more whites too. Please and in advance thank you :-D


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## hrutan

Sure, no problem! I expect everything to take a couple of months, though.


----------



## hrutan

My little trumpet snails keep hanging out at the surface, so I went ahead and got them a little sponge filter to improve their water, and eventually cycle the tank. Can you do a "Snail in" cycle? They are living creatures and produce waste, so it must be possible...the shopkeeper showed me how to set it up, and it's quite simple. Can't wait to get home tonight and do that. The sound of bubbles is soothing.

Had to say hi to that giant while I was there. I wish I could have him. He is so active, and flared at my finger. Such a fierce fella! But, I have neither an appropriate setup, nor permission from the other half. **sighs**


----------



## Olympia

Snails are much hardier to ammonia than fish. I think they will cycle the tank eventually... but they probably won't get hurt by ammonia in the water so they should be fine just as they are in there.


----------



## hrutan

My tap has a little ammonia as well, but it's not as bad as what it is at work. I think it's .5 ppm. I don't know why they're crawling out of the tank, but what I read online is that adequate filtration could be a factor. Since it was cheap I figured I'd give it a shot.


----------



## Jonthefish

Woah I missed so much !! Cool snails they are very cute !! :3


----------



## hrutan

Blaaa, the air pump I bought is too strong for a 3 gallon, lol. The bubbles are big and splashing so I had to put the lid on. Using it anyway, at least for a few days until I can buy a replacement. Hopefully my order will come in soon. >.<


----------



## hrutan

Some of the Ramshorn snails are getting speckles!

And!!! Seki shipped Phoenix! He should arrive on Thursday!!! That'll be a big pick-me-up after my root canal Thursday morning. My boss OK'd me taking the day off (due to the root canal) so I get to run around and take care of anything that Phoenix might need. He's going to have to have a stopover for a few days in a 3 gallon while the 10 gallon finishes its cycle. Yes, the dratted thing is still cycling. Ammonia isn't showing up any more even with regular doses of fish food, it's just those cursed nitrites that won't go away. I'd really like that vial to stop turning purple. Like, now.

Phoenix looks so much better now than he did to start. His orange is beautiful and growing vibrant. While I'm not one to anthropomorphize most of the time, he looked positively plaintive in that shipping bag.

Please please please let him arrive safely...


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

Speckles, root canals and Phoenix OH MY! He has done such a great job recovering with Seki, a small bag in a box won't even phase the lil dude. I'll send a lil prayer though to make sure he makes it okay.


----------



## hrutan

$60 later, I have some stuff I was missing from the pet store:
A new heater (my spare got taken by Buttercup), a 5 gallon kritter keeper (my spare got taken by snails), Indian almond leaves, a new air pump, a new cave, and...A NEW MOSS BALL!



I'm really intrigued by the almond leaves, and they were very inexpensive. Here's Buttercup checking his out:



And here's Mr. Kitty zooming past his. That fish is impossible to take pictures of. Sheesh.


----------



## hrutan

Huh. Buttercup has a black scale on his side. I don't remember him having a black scale there. Just a couple on his beard and right before his dorsal fin...


----------



## myexplodingcat

Ooh, who knows--maybe he'll suddenly marble on you! Would you like it if he did that, or do you prefer him white?


----------



## hrutan

I think him marbling would be interesting, but if he doesn't, that's okay. While his looks might have been why I took him off the shelf, it's his personality that made him my desk fish at work. He's always watching what I'm doing, and strutting his stuff even though his fins are all shredded. He doesn't care what he looks like, so why should I? :-D


----------



## hrutan

Phoenix is so curious, it's funny. I have to sit across my room on my bed to watch him. He's always poking at things in his tank and investigating this or that. He'll follow the snail, or poke his head in his cave, or examine the thermometer. He's so small and filled with adventure...I wonder how old he is?


----------



## hrutan

Update on the 75 gallon: The tank lid was less expensive than I'd feared. Due to its slightly odd measurements (47" x 14" interior) I was afraid I'd have to have a custom lid. Fortunately, the aquarium shop owner was able to get a lid that's 47" x 12", which is close enough, and it only cost me $35. A couple of inches of open water at the back isn't a disaster - that just gives me room for filters and cords and things without having to cut the rubber flap.

I bought organic potting soil. We've poured the dirt in to appropriate depth, and are now picking through it to remove all the sticks and crumble up the thick clods. Gotta buy a colander or something to sift it - this is slow work, and both of us keep missing bits. On the other side, sitting around the living room table picking through bowls of dirt with my roommate is oddly soothing.

Speaking of soothing:
I came to work today to find two bubble nests. Mr. Kitty is an incorrigible bubble nest builder, so it wasn't a surprise to spot his, but this is only Buttercup's second nest ever. He built it right up against the IAL:



Mr. Kitty built his under the filter housing. It's nearly impossible to take a photo of, just like the fish himself. :lol: He's _zooming _around as usual.

Phoenix missed his first drop of shrimp this morning because he was too busy watching me. He made up for it with the second drop, plus four pellets. :-D I read this morning that IAL is especially good for bettas with skin problems, and I hope the IAL will help him continue his journey to good health. Seki did a wonderful job with him. He looks so much better than he used to. Looking forward to seeing what happens in another month! Forgot to take pics this morning, so I'll give a picture update of him tonight.

That's it for fish!

On a personal note: The root canal yesterday went well, except for me biting the crap out of my lip while my face was still numb. Ow. I didn't even realize what I'd done until I tasted blood. It's a little swollen today. The injection sites are sore, but my mouth feels so much better...this tooth must have been bothering me for a long time, because I keep noticing that I _don't hurt_ today. Which means that I've been hurting for so long that I got used to it.

Now I'm off to the optometrist to pick up my contacts. That's going to be weird. I haven't had contacts in around 15 years, and didn't think I could wear them. Went in for a lasik evaluation at an optometrist different than my usual, and she asked me why I wasn't wearing them...turns out that not only _can _I wear them, but it's considered a medically necessary treatment for my kind of eye problems, and insurance will cover it. Holy smokes! You mean I can have a _full field of vision??_ Yeah, I'm switching optometrists. Lens Crafters not only can't make my glasses in an hour, but I'm also very tired of the conflicting information they keep giving me.


----------



## hrutan

I've just gotten news that all but one of my Malaysian Trumpet Snails have died. WHO CAN KILL MALAYSIAN TRUMPET SNAILS? I mean, _seriously_.

There's something wrong with that Kritter Keeper. It's the one that grew slime earlier, the one that I thought had just gotten bad tap water. It grew slime, so I took Buttercup out, switched him to my spare, and scrubbed the tank down and filled it with snails. It grew slime again. I bleached it, and put the snails back in. It's grown slime a third time and the snails went belly up one by one.

Bleach should have killed anything in there. I don't get it, and I'm wondering if it was those river rocks. I'd boiled them, which is actually rather dangerous...but they are the only thing I haven't used in multiple tanks. I took them out after it grew slime the first time....

At least they were a dollar a dozen, and at least I took Buttercup out the first time. He's showing no ill effects.


----------



## blueridge

That's interesting O.O keep us posted if you find out what is causing it


----------



## hrutan

I'm curious enough to run a little experiment when I get home. I'll scour and bleach that tank again, and fill it with conditioned water and let it sit empty. There's a possibility I just didn't scrub well enough. Then I'll do the same with a second tank with a few of those rocks in it. "Sisters" of those rocks are already on the dangerous ornaments list for being dyed despite "100% natural" tags on the label. The dratted things are imported from china...so for all I know they are either contaminated or not even real rock.

They got bleached too, btw, so none of this makes sense.


----------



## hrutan

So my roommate left the snail tank outside with a little water in it rather than throw away my Malaysian Trumpet Snail corpses because she wasn't sure how to dispose of them without contaminating the environment.

The rumors of snail death have been exaggerated. They are alive. For some reason, they just decided to hide in their shells for more than two days, but now they are out and twitching. Which is hilarious because the tank is a mess, there's random pieces of drywall in it due to repairs from the massive, insane plumbing issues we had, and it was 100F out. Holy cow, those are some hardy little beasts.

On other fronts:

Phoenix's tank is cycled. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrates untested yet (gonna do that in a bit). My roommate threw some scoops of fish food in there over the course of the week, so I know the cycle has been fed.

I'll test for nitrates in a few minutes, do a big water change, and then check the levels again in the afternoon tomorrow. If all goes well, he'll be released into his new digs tomorrow night. I'm a little concerned about the current, so I'll probably baffle the filter. Seems like a good idea anyway, because the Ramshorns keep getting caught in the intake.

The Ramshorns are coloring up nicely. Most of them appear to be leopards, but they don't have full color yet, so we'll see. I think I spotted one that's turning blue but with spots...that is intriguing. Also saw at least two that now appear a faint pink.

Found a cheap-yet-complete 10g at the thrift store. It came with some decor, a fake plant, some astonishingly ugly gravel, a hood with lights, and a filter with filter refills. There's no lid for the filter. Is that going to be an issue?


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Lidless filters are ok as long as the media doesn't float away
And woohoo on the snails/cycle


----------



## hrutan

Got back to work after the vacation, and the water quality in my work boys' tanks was horrifying. Mr. Kitty's 5 gallon was over 4 PPM ammonia. HOW?! Did a 90% water change right away and dosed him with a little extra Prime. His color was bad, pale and a little washed out, but not pale enough to show stress stripes. Didn't look like he had any burns.

Also, someone forgot to turn his tank light off. For all I know, his tank light was left on the whole week, poor guy. It's not hard to turn the light off, people...

No signs of Mr. Kitty's tank cycling. It's been several weeks now, but that nitrite vial still shows a nice, pale sky blue. I'm thinking about replacing his filter, since those minibow ones seem to be crap and take up a lot of room. Also thinking about replacing his gravel with some substrate that holds nutrients, and planting that tank a bit more heavily. Maybe more hiding places would make him happier.

Buttercup was in better shape. He's showing plenty of fin regrowth, and definitely looks better than he used to. It's hard to say about his color, since he's white already. Gave him a 90% water change. He's puttering around like usual. I want to get him a little sponge filter, but the one I have at home makes huge loud bubbles...that's not really going to work in a library setting.


----------



## hrutan

Retest today in the 10g showed .25 Nitrites. Darn it, darn it. Will this tank ever finish cycling?


----------



## hrutan

The nitrite presence in the 10g was very short-lived. I'm guessing it showed up at all because there's ammonia in the tap water and I had just done a big water change, so conversion was in progress from the big ammonia dump. Parameters are perfect this morning. Yay! Nitrates are too high even after the water change. Gotta do more.

I can't tell the difference on the testing card between 20 and 40. The color looks the same to me. I also can't tell the difference between the 60 and 80. So I am going to assume that it's 40 and act accordingly...better safe than sorry.

I put in a horned nerite snail in the 10g last night, and it has vanished. There's no trail coming out, no sign that he might have escaped or anything...but I can't find him anywhere. Since he had a very bright, distinctive shell, I'm puzzled. I scouted around the tank just in case, and around the dresser as well. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Maybe he's hiding in the plants somewhere? Hmmm.

Anyway, due to the bad tap water, the 10g is guaranteed to be better for Phoenix than the 5g he's in, even if there's slight fluctuations in water quality still. So I'm going to go ahead and change until those nitrates are under control, and then acclimate him before work. The lights aren't going to turn on for a couple of hours, so doing it in the dim room light will be less stressful for him than waiting until later.

If all goes well, I'll post a video of Phoenix in his new tank tonight after work. I'm on late shift, so probably close to 9 PST.


----------



## hrutan

Oh, also - there are Ramshorn eggs EVERYWHERE. Holy cow. Time to harvest. The LPS said they might be interested in taking the larger snails for store credit. :-D

They aren't even fully colored up yet. Horny little buggers. :lol: I'll dump a bunch in Phoenix's old tank so that they can grow out more before they get sold.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

Mine got jiggy in the hospital tank I have. My dad just asked what is growing in it, and I was like baby snails! He was like can't you clean the tank tho? I was like no cuz they are so small I don't wanna kill them or something. 

If you get any blues or pinks, I am interested since mine have seemed to died out or I can't find them.


----------



## hrutan

I _might _have pinks. There are some that do seem to be getting that distinct pinkish tint. Most of them seem to be leopards, though. We'll see!

OK. Water change done. Giving 15 minutes for the heater to adjust, and then turning it on. I'll test the water after I do a few things inside the house.

Update on the tank I found in a thrift store:

Here's the whole setup - no heater, no thermometer. Filter & hood light need to be cleaned before I dare try them to find out if they work.


Decor piece #1. I really like this item. The edges are very smooth. It seems worth disinfecting and reusing. The coin is a quarter, for scale.


Decor piece #2: Moderately attractive. Also fairly smooth, but plastic. I'll soak it in a bleach solution and give it a closer examination. It doesn't seem like it'd be safe for bettas, and I like live plants, so I'll probably toss it.


Brand new filter refills. Always useful.


A close up of the filter. Eeeeeeeeeeew.


Cleanup plan: Everything will be scrubbed with plain hot water. That should dissolve most of the solids that are crusting this thing. I may have to do that twice.

After the hot water scrub, I'll do a bleach treatment. The tank and equipment are _really _gross, and who knows why this person got rid of it. I'm guessing by the colors of the decor that it was a kid's tank, so the filth is probably due to sheer neglect.

After the bleach treatment, I'll rinse with hot water until the bleach smell disappears.


----------



## kjg1029

jeeze that's one dirty filter!! Poor fish before...


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

What did they do to that filter? Like did they use it for a saltwater lake or something?!? It's so gross. Lol.


----------



## hrutan

After a water change on the 10g day before yesterday, and a water change today, the nitrate test still looks like this:



**grabs the siphon, sighs**


----------



## hrutan

Finally. I ran out of time, so I'll put him in tonight...


----------



## Thothgirl

you were mentioning having problems reading the colours on the test. have you tried checking what colour it isn't as opposed to what colour it is? that was how I managed to tell the difference between close shades.


----------



## hrutan

The problem is the colors themselves look identical to me. The 10 and 20 look exactly the same on the card, even under bright white light. So do the 40 and 80. I guess my vision for color isn't very good.

At least I can tell the difference between 20 and 40! :roll:


----------



## Thothgirl

LOL! I understand. I had to get my husband to read the colours for me for the first couple of weeks.


----------



## myexplodingcat

hrutan said:


> The problem is the colors themselves look identical to me. The 10 and 20 look exactly the same on the card, even under bright white light. So do the 40 and 80. I guess my vision for color isn't very good.
> 
> At least I can tell the difference between 20 and 40! :roll:


I can't tell the difference either, and I'm an artist. I have received _compliments_ on my eye for color by experienced art teachers. And I'm still squinting at that thing going "What?"

Not just you.


----------



## hrutan

Well, that makes me feel better! ^^


----------



## Islandgaliam

hrutan said:


> Well, that makes me feel better! ^^


Me too!!! lol


----------



## hrutan

I released Phoenix into the 10 gallon tonight, and my dratted, senile phone seems to have failed to record. Darn it, darn it, darn it...and stronger words were used in person!

I could watch him forever, though...he is being blown a bit by the filter, but not too badly. I stuck a cup in there for him to have a sheltered place if he needs it, but he's too busy investigating snails, poking at plants, and trying to eat duckweed to care right now. _Everything _looks like food to Phoenix!

He is so energetic and excited, and filled with spirit. That little fish has been through so much, and it's like he doesn't care. Nothing phases him. Accidental tank knock? No problem! New digs? Bring them on! Weird, new foods? Sure thing, he's not picky!


----------



## Seki

Awww I bet he loves all the space!! Did you move his moss ball in with him? lol


----------



## hrutan

Of course! :shock:


----------



## kjg1029

so nice to hear how happy he isc:.....pictures!!?!!!?! LolxD


----------



## hrutan

I'll take some pictures tomorrow after work. The tank lights are off, and it's dim in my room...timed his release to be only 5 minutes before lights out so that he could have comfortable darkness to adjust.


----------



## hrutan

Collecting a breeding population of snails and removing them from Phoenix's tank...he thinks _everything _is food. Including Ramshorns.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

hrutan said:


> Collecting a breeding population of snails and removing them from Phoenix's tank...he thinks _everything _is food. Including Ramshorns.


If the ramshorns are too big to swallow, Phoenix will spit them back out or the snails will snap shut on his lip n teach him a lesson. My girl Ruby had that happen to her and it taught her real quick the snails were not food. They eventually lose interest in the snails, I think Phoenix is just super excited to see so much activity in his tank.


----------



## VivianKJean

I have a betta that thinks everything is good as well.....

He ate the cucumber that i left for the snail. He ate the algae wafers I left for the snail. He TRIED to eat the sail. no luck thank god! he TRIES VERY HARD to eat the gravel vac. He eats pretty much everything.


----------



## hrutan

I woke up this morning and, as I usually do, checked on Phoenix and the snails right away. At first all I could see was the Nerite (who has reappeared and isn't being molested so far). Then I saw a few, stray Ramshorns...but not as many as I remembered having. One of them was climbing along on a spindly leaf. Phoenix was patrolling back and forth. He spotted the snail at the same time I did, turned himself into a torpedo, and rammed the snail off the plant. It was both hilarious and sad at the same time. Phoenix, you warrior, you.

I moved the snails I could find over to his old 5 gallon...looks like I got a couple of pinks and a few leopards, which is fine.

So yeah...Phoenix wasn't all that hungry for breakfast this morning. I was worried about the dozen+ egg clusters, but Phoenix will probably eat enough of the babies that there won't be a population problem...


----------



## hrutan

As promised...PHOENIX PHOTO UPDATE! COMPLETE WITH VIDEO!!

I got the chance to take pictures tonight. He's doing simply wonderful, and eating like a horse instead of a little fishy. I mean...a not-so-little fishy. I was stunned to have a good look at him tonight and realize that in the brief period of time since he's joined my family, he's grown. He's grown _a lot._ It's hard to get an accurate measurement of how much, since he's super energetic, but since I noticed the difference, it's significant.

I've shifted him to an entirely frozen food diet now, and only give him pre-soaked pellets occasionally in case there's something he needs that mysis shrimp and blood worms aren't giving him. He gets a 50/50 mix of shrimp and blood worms at every meal, and eats until his belly is a little rounded. 1 day a week fast, either Sunday or Monday.

Here's an overall pictures of the tank. He held still for it, which was a bit of a surprise:


Cutest grumpy face ever:


This is his color under the light. Purple irids?:


I was wiggling my fingers on the side of the tank:


A quick video so you can see energy and movement, complete with a pan view of the aquarium. Note: There are still living snails, and he seems to have stopped attacking them.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Awww look at the cute little bugger


----------



## InStitches

this fish always makes me smile. He looks so happy hrutan! good job! You gave him so much space and pretty plants.


----------



## VivianKJean

omg phoenix has literally one of the biggest personalities I've ever seen. I'm so happy that he is safe and in a good home


----------



## hrutan

You know, I think it's because he's had the opportunity to show it. Everyone's fussed over him, taken special care of him, babied him, and watched over him as he's grown, so we see all of the little things that he does that might have gone unnoticed. He's had a ton of attention and stimulation since his rescue, which also probably helped him develop. It works for babies and puppies, why not fish?


----------



## GreenEnvy

So stinkin' cute! Thanks for keeping us updated on his status. He is one lucky lil' guy. I also think Phoenix is what made me decide to choose a male VT a couple of weeks ago. :-D


----------



## hrutan

VTs are beautiful.

In a couple of years, I'd like to breed. I'm reluctant to breed VTs because it's impossible to compete against Thai mass breeders...but wouldn't it be nice to see some butterfly VTs on the market?


----------



## Veloran

Wow, he's filled out so much. I wonder if he stays up half the night thinking up things to do for attention. The stuff he does is just too adorable.


----------



## TripleChrome

Phoenix looks amazing now. The day that Seki rescued him, all the way to these new pictures. Just wow. He looks so much better.


----------



## Seki

hrutan said:


> A quick video so you can see energy and movement, complete with a pan view of the aquarium. Note: There are still living snails, and he seems to have stopped attacking them.


He was just trying to play soccer with them like he does with his moss ball, that's all!! As soon as he figured out they don't roll, he probably lost interest!

Awesome update, he looks AMAZING!! That iridescence is new, I don't recall him really having any when I had him. Absolutely gorgeous, and his tank looks amazing! So glad he's doing SO WELL!! <3


----------



## hrutan

I went to the specialty aquarium shop today to check and see if my dream King was still there. He wasn't, so I bought an aquarium lid and some air line tubing and left.

My roommate might have suggested we fish fancy a bit at PetSmart.

They might have had a beautiful, perfect double ray crowntail lady.

I might have bought her and a moss ball, and taken them home.

But if I did, I don't know what you're talking about...


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Since you didnt can we not have pictures?


----------



## hrutan

If she existed, she might be a little naughty little vixen and making my photo shoot difficult...:lol:

She might have said "Screw acclimation," and jumped out of her floating cup and right into the tank, too. Yargh.


----------



## VivianKJean

My female doesn't do well with acclimation either! When I used to do 100% water changes, while her cup was floating she would hop over the edge into the tank ALL the time. 

she is a very naughty girl.


----------



## hrutan

PHOTO UPDATE!

I haven't done any work on the 75g lately. First the ceiling collapsed, then we had to replace the plumbing, then we had to test for asbestos, and then we had to get the place dried out, and then remove all the drywall...and there was mold...well, my living room looks like this, and I'm broke:





As for the little troublemaker...here I am with my roommate, walking around PetSmart thinking, "I don't have any money, but she's so beautiful, and that king that I wanted so bad was gone...oh, she has perfectly uniform web reduction...oh, look at her bow at the boys...double rays...since when do I find a uniform double ray at a pet shop...I _did _want a girl next..." and the next thing I know, this tiny, tiny little girl was coming home in a cup.

SHE DOESN'T EXIST.

My husband doesn't know...oh lord what have I done.

Here she is, checking out her heater...


Yes, she really is that small...


So small, he might not even notice.


----------



## niQ

Just read through your journal, subscribed 
Your non-existing girl is so cute.
I love the humor and honesty in your writing, thx for sharing your betta family experiences with us.


----------



## hrutan

Haha, thanks. <3 Feel free to participate in the conversation!


----------



## VivianKJean

if he says anything, just be like "I don't see a female". "Are you sure there is a female?"

You can always say that you found her in a parking lot XP


----------



## Seki

Boy, what a pretty little non-existent girl you have there! :-D


----------



## hrutan

Seems like time to do an update on the work boys. Mr. Kitty is doing better with the IAL in his tank. I put up a "NO TOUCH!" sign, hopefully that will help too...unfortunately, unsupervised children have a way of gravitating to the aquarium and tapping on the plastic. I watch it like a hawk, but not everyone does. Last week, I added Tetra SafeStart in the hopes of jump-starting some bacteria in the new sponge filter. No signs of anything happening yet. Also, yesterday's closing shift left the tank light on. Again. I put a note on the reference desk computers, hopefully that will help.

Here's how he looks right now:


Buttercup my desk buddy seems to be doing pretty well. I think there's fin regrowth there...lemme post a before and a now picture, and we can compare! :-D

BEFORE:


NOW:


----------



## Jonthefish

I could just picture it ...

" fish , what fish ? Oh that ? That's most defiantly not a fish "

XD


----------



## hrutan

My roommate and I have agreed that Mystique is a good name.


----------



## VivianKJean

Mystique! (cause she changes what she looks like so that your husband doesn't notice her XD)


----------



## hrutan

She's sneaky, partially blue...and looks like she might marble. I'd have sworn she didn't have red tips on her anal and caudal yesterday...and it's definitely color, not rot. :shock:


----------



## VivianKJean

She's changing her appearance to blend in 

So the real questions, has your husband found the non-exstant fish?


----------



## hrutan

If he has, he hasn't said anything. He left the cash for the car insurance payment in front of her tank, too. I have absolutely no idea if he noticed and didn't say anything, or just passed on by without looking.


----------



## VivianKJean

lets hope it the "passed her tank and wasn't looking" option XD


----------



## hrutan

Well, if he saw and didn't say anything, that's fine...because it means he isn't upset. Haha. Anyway.

I think Phoenix might be able to see Mistique.


The current is too strong for anything to hold up, so I made a ring out of some tubing and anchored it in the same place. Let's see what happens when he's given a little bit of still water. ;-)



I finally got a better picture of the little lady. All of the darker rays are actually red. It makes them look kind of invisible in her tank, but they're there. Her reduction isn't very deep, but it's perfectly even within each fin. I think the anal fin is a little long. Her ventrals are also red, and not quite as long as her anal. It's hard to get a pic where she has those on full display. When she's not arching her back peering at this or that, she looks fairly symmetrical if you ignore the egg belly, so I think her overall form is decent? I'm going to try to get a pic of her with her vents down and make a post on the "show" forum so I can find out what the experts think, since I'm trying to learn how to evaluate this.



Here she is checking out her leaf.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

She is adorable.  If he noticed and didn't say anything, that's pretty awesome. 

Also, yay Phoenix! It's good to know he's doing so well in a loving and wonderful home. <3


----------



## hrutan

My husband glanced into the tank and said, "By the way, why do we have two fish?" I explained that I'd like to put Mystique in the empty tank along with some ADF. He gave a rather dubious shrug, said OK, and moved on. I am absolutely not going to push my luck over this -- no more bettas until someone swims under the Rainbow Bridge, may that be a long time from now.

Plan for the new 10 gallon:

I have equipment in my unreachable garage for a 20 gallon - sponge filter, pump, air line, gang valve, heater, and clamp lights. I'd like to transfer those over to the 10 gallon. Most of it should fit, I think.

Substrate: Black sand. It's pretty. I'll use root tabs and Flourish Comprehensive for nourishment.

No Co2.

Decor: That peculiar decoration that came with the tank is pleasing to me for some reason. It's seen some use and is well-worn. I scrubbed the crap out of it. The edges are smoother than they look. But, if I find a couple really gnarly pieces of driftwood, those would be preferred as long as they're cheap. Money is a concern.

Plants: Lots of live. I'm thinking some swords in the back, Java Ferns tied to whichever piece of decor I settle on, and more of these things. What are these things, anyway? Umar sent me three, and they've more than doubled in size, now. Every time I look they have new growth. I'm thinking all I'll have to do is transfer a few clippings:



Whatever they are, they're my favorite of the batch.
Dwarf Water Lettuce for floaters, and Duckweed if it decides to hitch a ride. I don't mind duckweed, even though it gets everywhere.

I'm going to try transferring some myrio, too. It's pretty and getting overwhelmed by the guppy grass. Or do I have the two mixed up? Hmm. Well, one of the two is going in there.

Stocking:
1 female betta until the cycle is complete.
Then:
3 ADF
2 Nerites, or 1 Mystery snail. I'm thinking about picking up a snail painted like a ladybug from Flint. Hee hee.
1 solitary critter of some sort for spice. Something that'll hide and surprise me every now and then.


----------



## niQ

Looks like lobelia cardinalis


----------



## hrutan

Just checked my PMs from Umar. You're right, it is. 

Found some interesting, small pieces of driftwood when I went to get a second bag of sand. *sighs* Pay day is Wednesday. Go go, credit card! It's boiling now, and wasn't expensive...don't worry. Ha. After it's done boiling, I'll let it dry out and file off any sharp bits. They both were pretty smooth, but there's a couple of places that need a once-over.


----------



## niQ

Can't wait to see how your new scape turns out. Did you decide on the "hide and surprise me" critter yet?


----------



## hrutan

No, I need to do a bit more research and see what's compatible. If it's possible, there's these small eel-like fish...they seem really cool, if they don't get too big. Fortunately, there's quite a bit of time before this thing will be ready for more than a single betta. I don't want to compromise anyone's health in my quest for a cool tank.


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## niQ

Ever had khuli loaches? I got 5 in my 24g. They look like lil snakes but super cute. Check them out.


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## hrutan

I definitely will.

Hours and hours of boiling later, the driftwood is still turning the water a dark tea color. Turned the stove off and left 'em in the pot overnight, and turned the heat on again this morning. Home sick today. At least I can boil wood.


----------



## Seki

I found the tannins were actually soothing to my fish when I put driftwood into my tank. I boiled it for about four hours before I put it in, and then I let it be. Some people don't care for the look of tannins in their tanks, but I actually kind of like it, and I know my girls benefited from them!

It's personal choice, but you COULD put the driftwood in while it's still leaching, if you wanted~


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## hrutan

If I have to boil it much longer, I will. Sheesh! I think it's on hour 6 or so...

Honestly I don't like the look of it, because I can't see the color of the fish very clearly and I have vision problems already. They get IAL if I think they need some TLC, and I love the effect that it has on Mr. Kitty in particular, who I think has even more delicate health than Phoenix. In general, though, I prefer to leave it out.

Put Mystique's sponge filter in her new tank to agitate the surface of the water. The sand I stuck in there is gathering bubbles and then floating in little balls, which is driving me nuts. The sponge filter is making it rain, lol.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

My tetras got "excited" when my first batch of driftwood was leeching. I guess they felt like home and wanted to do the do. The water didn't get too dark as long as I did a few water changes every few days. I didn't even take out that much water, maybe about 25% and it was fine after about 3 changes.


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## hrutan

I'll probably put it in either tonight or after I've managed to get the sand settled, then. Mystique is going to be going through a fish-in cycle, so she'll have more frequent water changes, anyway. I've come to the conclusion that with a healthy fish, there's no point in doing a fishless cycle if I already have a fish to go in there, given the quality of my tap water. No matter how often I change it, it's never getting below .5 ppm ammonia anyway...so she might as well be in a planted, decorated tank. The water change schedule is going to be similar.  Thank goodness for Prime.


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## BettaLover1313

I've enjoyed reading about your adventures with your fish especially the once non-existent female lol.


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## hrutan

Thank you! I feel like a dodged a bullet with that one, haha. Apparently he was annoyed for a few minutes, then remembered that it's a fish and has zero impact on his life.


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## VivianKJean

and she's cute!!!!! <3


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## hrutan

New 10 gallon! Gave Phoenix's tank a bit of a trim and put in some plants. Hopefully everything will fill out. :-D I have seeded media from the cycled tank wrapped around part of the sponge filter in the hopes of bacteria transferring. Mystique and a bag of snails are acclimating.


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## VivianKJean

looks awesome!!!! 

I'm sure after a few weeks the plants will grow out and look fabulous!


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## hrutan

Oh. And I have my living room back! Minus a bunch of wall...


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## Seki

Yay having your living room back!! Even with the missing walls lol


----------



## hrutan

Well, the walls might be missing, but we're moisture and mold free, now.

Phoenix gave me some truly magnificent flares tonight. My roommate took some pictures with her phone. When they finally arrive to me via email (probably some time tomorrow or the next day :roll I will post them.

His beard is full and black, with an orange spot on the left and another on the right. The spots are symmetric. My roommate's words: "That's pretty boss." :lol:


----------



## hrutan

Roommate has permission to get a fish. I'm looking forward to posting about him when he happens - she has a HUGE soft spot for black orchid CTs, so...we'll see. She may yet get some handsome, spiky fellow at a pet shop when we go fish fancying. There's no hurry.

Looks like my "evil plan" has succeeded. My husband has had nothing but positive experiences with the fishies, and thinks the tanks are pretty. Muahahahaha.

The MTS that I put in Mystique's tank have disappeared, as they should. Which is good, because the first thing she did when she saw them was attack the fleshy parts like a shark. I was like, WHOA. But it looks like she didn't manage to kill any.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

When I got my snails and saw Licorice attack Snelly, I was really worried that he was gonna kill her. They actually grow back their antennas so you don't have to worry about them getting nipped at. The only time they will die is if their shell gets busted or they get harassed so much they don't come out of the shell.

I have two Black Orchid CT and they are just amazing boys. Lic has his own bowl with Snelly the snail n just loves it there and then Midnight my gender changing boy lives with the community sorority. Both are amazing lil guys just beware that CT's are more aggressive than say VT's so if they decide to have a community with the CT, it might be alil nippy towards other fish.


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## hrutan

Phoenix isn't bothering his snails much now - although I've noticed none of them have antennae anymore, haha. But Mystique targeted the fleshy parts, darted grabbed and shook like a terrier...and then chewed. I'm not sure if the pink ramshorns that were in her tank have survived. :shock: One of the three might have, but the other two...well...I am not optimistic...


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

I have my girls trained that if they go after something or another girl, I put my finger up to the tank and they stop chasing/doing whatever they were doing. Maybe you can get Mysty to stop eating the snails somehow like that? I know my girls lost interest after a few days n now the snails are everywhere.


----------



## hrutan

We'll see what happens in the new tank. She's only just beginning to recognize me as "bringer of food," and is constantly scavenging, so it'll be a bit before she pays much mind to me. It seems she's a little food insecure. Anyway, there's not much point in being upset about a carnivorous fish dining on convenient small snails, lol.


----------



## hrutan

Mr. Kitty isn't doing well. I started a thread over in the disease and emergency forum for him. That poor boy always has problems - it seems like his health has been very delicate from the start, and he stresses easy. It's tough because he isn't _my _fish, and he isn't the fish that I would've picked if I had known I'd love bettas so much, but he's the fish that started my hobby. My attachment to him isn't very deep, so I feel concern, responsibility, and a great deal of frustration instead of...whatever else I should be feeling. I don't know. Fear? I mean, if Phoenix or Buttercup got sick, I'd be panicking! But with Mr. Kitty I feel more guilt that I don't feel as horrible as I should, knowing that he's sick. And that's not fair to him. Is it? It's not like I ever withhold any effort. I give him everything that I can to keep him happy and comfortable.

Maybe it's the very fact that I don't own him. He's not mine. I can't just say "Screw this, this isn't working," and take him home.

Well, theoretically, I suppose I could, if I gave back the money my boss and coworkers gave me for his care. No one would blame me after all the trouble I've gone through. But somewhere deep in my gut, that feels like theft. Not so much theft of property, but theft of the joy he brings to the community, and to my coworkers.

So I'll do what I can.


----------



## hrutan

I was feeling all down about Mr. Kitty being sick _again_, and one of my coworkers...one of the people who gets paid the very least out of all of us...heard that I had to go back to the pet store for medicine. She quietly pressed a $20 in my hand and said, "I know it's not much, but it's a start. Thank you."

I guess that's why I'm taking care of a work fish, instead of taking him home.


----------



## Seki

Aw hun, I'm sorry Mr. Kitty isn't doing well. It's rough watching a fish go downhill and not knowing how to help. I hope Mr. Kitty bucks up! And it was really nice of your coworker to donate $20 to his care.


----------



## hrutan

He's always been so delicate...it was so kind of her to give me some money. I need to go buy Triple Sulfa tomorrow. At least the LPS sells it! Their medicine section actually looks pretty good. :shock:

The problem is the stupid tank WON'T CYCLE, and Mr. Kitty is suffering because of it! Grr! I want to strangle whoever designed the filter for the Aqueon MiniBow 5 gallon. 6 weeks wasted in bad water for Mr. Kitty. I'm about at the point of stocking up on spring water and using that while cycling their tanks. Buttercup will get a sponge filter tomorrow, anyway, which means time to cycle his tank, too.

Hmmm...I wonder...would that work? I could TOTALLY do that...The giant 5 gallon containers of spring water don't cost _that _much...:hmm:

Must consult the forums.


----------



## VivianKJean

the spring water isn't a bad idea. especially since the tap has such a high ammonia content


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## hrutan

Too sick to finish switching over Mr. Kitty and Buttercup to Spring water. Ugh. Bought it, changed 20% on both tanks, and had to go home sick because I just couldn't make it through the day. Might not be able to go in tomorrow. At least they got a little water changed...

Bought big sponge filters and an air pump for the 75g. The longer the HOB runs in Phoenix's tank, the less I like it. I'll switch it out when I have a little spare cash by running a sponge in there for a few weeks, then taking the HOB out. The tank needs to be kept very topped off or the current gets absurd.

Hoping to plant the 75g in 2 weeks. Making an ad in the Classifieds for the massive amount of plants that I'm going to need.


----------



## hrutan

Put some root tabs in Mystique and Pheonix's tanks. That's it for today. So tired.


----------



## hrutan

I sort of lied. The pictures my roommate took finally landed. It's time for a...

PHOENIX PHOTO UPDATE!

What is this?


An intruder!


Stay away from my moss ball!


That showed him!


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

D'awww<3


----------



## Zuzu

So gorgeous!


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## Seki

omg the protectiveness of the moss ball. I'm dying over here hahaha. His iridescence is so gorgeous!!! He's really turning out so beautiful! <3


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## hrutan

He is! Those dark areas on his fins are mostly clear and white now, and the orange is growing...so is the purple. He's gaining more and more iridescence and trying to bubble nest now.

I think having Mystique within view for several days probably helped with that, hahaha.


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## Seki

Call me crazy, but I think he might marble on you. My boy Nova had somewhat similar coloration to Phoenix when I first got him, just a speckle here or there like Phoenix has. And he's marbled like crazy!


















I wouldn't be surprised if Phoenix does the same based on these updates of him!


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## hrutan

He definitely does have more dark on his head and body than he used to...


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## hrutan

Phoenix looks like such a boyyyyyy next to Mystique. It's funny, the fluffy pretty wavy fins don't seem particularly masculine, until you look at the little delicate girls.

Even though I'm home sick, I had to take one of my cats to the vet today. We weren't exactly sure which one it was, but someone missed the litter box and hit the liner, and the urine was a dark rust brown. Looks like we guessed right - Montalban the gray fluffbutt is running a 104 degree fever and has lost two pounds. That's a freaking lot for a 12 pound (now 10 pound) cat.

It could be anything from a bacterial infection to cancer. Let's root for the bacterial infection, OK guys? This is _my special boy_, here. I'd be sad if it were the other two cats, but I'll be heartbroken if I have to put this one down.

MB, *why *do you have to hide that you're sick until it's almost too late to save you?


----------



## FishytheFish

Aww, so sad! I hope Montalban pulls through, hrutan! And Phoenix is gorgeous!


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## hrutan

I'll go pick up MB in a couple hours. We're starting him on antibiotics just in case. Apparently with cats it's a bit safer than with humans to do antibiotics when you aren't sure if they are the answer, because cats don't live long enough to brew drug-resistant strains in their bodies. They won't hurt him, and there's a decent hope that antibiotics are exactly what he needs. We'll have the blood/urine lab analysis tomorrow, and then the vet and I can figure out what we need to do. If he needs xrays, he can go back to the vet on Saturday. It depends on what the lab results say.

Normally the kitties aren't allowed in my room, but I think I'll have him sleep with me tonight anyway. Just in case.


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## EvaJupiterSkies

Phoenix is looking gorgeous! 

I hope you and your cat are both feeling much better soon. <3


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## hrutan

Montalban at 4 months old, when we got him. Everyone thought he was a short hair (a condition for me to get a cat at all), and man was he UGLY. His whiskers were shriveled, his face was shaped oddly - too big for his eyes and ears. His eyes were small and crossed...his feet were so huge they were like paddles. He had stray, scraggly white hairs that stuck out here and there around his body. The lady practically begged me to take him, because she already had two kids and three dogs and a cat and her husband put his foot down.


This is him after a few months of regular feeding and several hundred dollars in vet bills. He's still less than a year old in this pic, and not a short hair at ALL:


He turned out to be such a monster that any time I took him to the vet, he was under mandatory sedation. They couldn't examine him - couldn't even take his temperature - without him taking a chunk out of someone. He bit three groomers that claimed they could handle him without sedation...yeah, _right_.

He didn't care about the squirt bottle. Scruffing made him aggressive. All the usual disciplinary techniques didn't work. It was like there was something wrong in his little beanie brain, and he was _extremely_ bite-oriented. If you're unfamiliar with cats, their saliva is toxic, so having a biter is quite dangerous.

We got a second kitten in self-defense, after talking to the vet and a couple of rescue organizations. He was still a monster after that, but at least he spent his time terrorizing the other kitten instead of us.

A lot of his behavior got better after we discovered he has bad knees. His kneecaps are detaching and sliding around due to degrading cartilage - it's a congenital defect - and cause him pain. Jostling his back end is agonizing for him, and we know not to bug him if he's walking funny, because he's hurting and will be cranky.

This is my Bonnaboo now:



My beautiful monster has calmed down a lot since he was young. I'm guessing he's close to 7 now, and starting to enter his senior years. If it's crinkly, he'll sit on it. If it's a bag, he'll sit in it. If it's crinkly and not intended to be a bag but he'll fit in it anyway, that's some serious bonus points. He still bites, but not usually hard enough to draw blood. We've learned what triggers him and avoid it.

Just thought I'd share. There are cats, and there are _cats_.


----------



## VivianKJean

Phoenix is such a lil cutie! look at him protecting his moss ball!


----------



## hrutan

Still waiting for the vet to call with lab results. I hate waiting. Apparently he's in surgery right now, so who knows when he'll be free...


----------



## hrutan

Well, the tests came back...not as useful as I'd hoped. He doesn't have kidney or liver failure (yay), but he does have crystals in his urine. The vet actually expressed his concern (he is usually pretty unflappable), when I said Bon didn't eat this morning and described his other symptoms. I've been OKed to spend the money on abdominal xrays come Monday morning.

As for Bon...I'm told he ate a little at lunch. He's sleeping and cuddling a lot, and moving slow.


----------



## hrutan

And a little interlude at work...

Patron: Do you have any books about zombies?
Me: Sure! Do you want stories or fact books?
Him: Real things.
Me: How about this? "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Zombies."
Him: No, I need something like this... *shows me a children's chapter book*
Me: That's not a fact book.
Him: No, it isn't.
Me: So when I asked if you wanted a fact book and you said yes, you in fact meant the complete opposite.
Him: *pauses* Yes.


----------



## hrutan

I am pleased to report that the antibiotics appear to be working. Mr. Montalban's fever has broken. It's down to 101.5, which is perfectly acceptable, and he is showing interest in food.

He's sleeping in my room tonight anyway.


----------



## hrutan

Bon ate a proper amount for dinner tonight.


----------



## hrutan

Phoenix and Mystique were also quite happy to enjoy their dinner. Bloodworms were up on the rotation, so this should hardly be a surprise, haha. I'm getting better at feeding them out of an eyedropper, and they're getting better at eating out of an eyedropper. Such hungry, hungry little creatures.

Water changes tomorrow!


----------



## hrutan

Bon isn't quite his normal self, but he's bouncing back faster than a rubber ball in a playground. Mystery illness strikes again - this is the SECOND time he's been struck with a high fever with no apparent cause that cleared up with antibiotic use. I was so sure I'd lose him this time, and here we go. Quietly begging for breakfast as though nothing had ever happened...$500 later. Next time I get a cat, I'm getting one of those insurance plans for it. No sane insurance company would accept any of my three boys, now. Hah!

Montalban almost died of a fever / bacterial infection twice, and has bad knees
Shatner had severe stomatitis that was passed with his mother's milk, and had to have all his teeth removed.
Noodle almost died of a hairball. Really, dude? A hairball?? Oh,_ come on!_


----------



## niQ

Just read about ur kitty, glad he is recovering nicely. Good job taking care of him, he is lucky to be living with u. Cats are wonderfully interesting creatures. I do not own one but there is an outside kitty that visits and we like to feed & play with him.


----------



## hrutan

Just completed water changes on both 10 gallons. Phoenix was looking out at me from behind his filter, like "Is it over?" Haha. Mystique, as usual, was unphased.

BOTH MYSTIQUE'S TANK AND THE EMPTY QT TANK SHOW NITRITES! WOOHOOO! Gave Mystique a very big water change and a little extra Prime. I'm already dosing her daily. Looks like her cycle will go very fast. Gogo, seeded media!

Bon isn't quite "Bonning" yet, but he's showing steady progress. The other two cats are being _very _crazy tonight. They're puffed up and chasing goblins.

We went out on an adventure today to check out a car that my roommate is looking on buying. It's a green 2001 Jetta with 94,000 miles on it. Looked better in person than it did online, which is a rarity. Hoping the dealer will bargain on it - my roommate needs a car pretty bad, but August has been...a bad month. Funds are low, and something we'd normally be able to pay cash for will have to be financed.

As a matter of fact, the entire month of August can go fly a kite. Hmmph!

Looking forward to the Golden State Bettas meeting tomorrow. My husband said "Don't bring home a fish!" and I said, "Well, there's this raffle..." and he said, "If you win it, I guess that's okay."

If I win any fish, no more than one, okay Lady Luck? Don't be fickle, now. I only have one empty tank. After that, it'd be Tupperware.


----------



## hrutan

No go on the car. The dealer didn't want to reduce price for the tires they insisted were safe. No, dude. If the tire is cracked, it's NOT safe.

The Golden State Bettas meeting was very fun. I met a lot of nice people. It was hard work, though, and I came home exhausted. Outings like that are hard for me. I am an introvert. It's not that I don't like people, it's that people and their emotions and hopes are difficult, and no matter how much I look forward to reaching out, I end up so tired afterwards, as though I had run a marathon.

The two beauties I brought home need names. The CT (Mr. Furious FIns) needs a tank of his own, something with a lot of green to show off his stunning figure and color. The melano female will end up as a building block for my future sorority. It's a good thing I'll be getting some plants this coming week ... although she'll be quarantined a full two weeks, anyway. At the very least. I just can't risk it.


----------



## blueridge

Glad to hear your kitty is doing better! I can understand how ruff it can be with them :roll: I'm sure you and your room mate will be able to find a car for her. You just have to keep looking! There are plenty of good deals out there too! About you being an introvert and it feeling like a marathon when talking with others, just keeping trying! I was the same way and the only way I got over it was to just keep talking to people. Would also like to see your new kids ;-)


----------



## hrutan

The introvert thing is a basic part of my personality. Social activities are an energy negative. It's not quite the same thing as being shy. Hehe.

I'll get some photos up later today or tonight. Trying to find a vessel for the black beauty that's at the very least better than the cup she came in. I was given two tanks, but the smaller one needs cleaning something fierce, and there's nowhere to put the big one until I rearrange furniture.

The red CT looks a deep heartsblood, almost a rust color. His mass of rays and large size make him look like some kind of monster from the deep. He came to greet me this morning, but doesn't have a big appetite yet.

The melano female has rather long fins, for a lady. She was eager to eat right away. I still haven't gotten a very good look at her - the cup she came in isn't crystal clear. I'll give her a water change before work.

Off to the grocery store! The lunch meat had turned, eeew, and I need to make everyone sandwiches.


----------



## hrutan

As promised...NEW FISH PHOTO UPDATE!

The red CT has been dubbed Goliath. He's bigger than all of my other fish by a large margin, although he isn't a king. He likes his IAL.







The melano female has been very tentatively named Silhouette. Because that's all I can get of her. She is very dark. I am not sure of her tail type.


----------



## hrutan

Goliath finally ate this morning! I was starting to get a little worried. I'm wondering if my feeding method is just strange to him - to avoid overfeeding, my babies get fed with a medicine dropper, and I dole out food piece by piece to them until I'm satisfied they've gotten enough. He was totally uninterested in the mysis shrimp, and I only coaxed him into eating a couple blood worms last night. This morning, I threw a pinch of pellets in his tank out of hope, and that registered. He ate about half of them, I'm guessing 5 or so. I scooped the rest out, of course.

Mystique ate pellets like a ravaging piranha. She's still so tiny, but I bet she's young and growing.

Phoenix remembered what pellets were, but he's so used to waiting in his feeding spot that when the current swept them away he was clueless. I had to hunt down the pellets and re-present them to him. He was delighted to accept them, though.

Silhouette ate without hesitation. She seems a friendly, easygoing lady.

Tomorrow I should get the first shipment of plants that I ordered. The initial plan was to keep them fresh for the 75g, but with two ladies, I think I have to alter my plans on the fly. Silhouette is literally swimming around in a lemonade pitcher right now, and she has no heater. That's unacceptable. With limited space, I'm going to have to start a sorority.

According to the experienced breeders I spoke to on Sunday, two fish is apparently quite doable as long as I make sure that there are plenty of caves and plants, and they _cannot see the male fish_. That was a big one. Aggression becomes much worse when breeding prospects are visible.

Plans: 
Remove Mystique.
Heavily plant Mystique's former tank. 
Add two small caves.
Black out the side of the new sorority tank with construction paper.
Buy two breeder boxes (doing that today).
Float Mystique and Silhouette together & begin acclimation.
Examine how they react to each other.
Once acclimation is complete, move each to a breeding box.
Let them think about things for 24 hours.
Release and pray.

I'm satisfied at this point that Silhouette came from a good source, and I think the risk of adding her to Mystique's tank is less than the problem of not having a proper home for her, so this seems like the best course of action.

If there's too much aggression, I'll take a look at who is instigating, and may rehome that fish. It depends largely on what permanent solution I come up with for Goliath. I'm hoping to have him for my at-home desk buddy, but I don't want a 10 gallon on the bookshelf where he'd live. It's just too big - a 5 gallon would be better.


----------



## hrutan

**facepalm** I went to the pet store today to buy breeder boxes, and left with a heater and an ornament. Not breeder boxes.

On the up side, I have a heater and an ornament.  Went to the thrift shop to grab a 5.5 gallon that I saw last week, and they also had two 10 gallon tanks. I bought one of them - it had a hood with light, which they tested for me and is confirmed to work. Inside, there was also a heater and a second, smaller light. I'll test the heater and spare light later. Heaters are pretty durable, so I have hopes.

There are no immediate plans for the new 10 gallon. I'll probably use it to grow floating plants or something, since it seems like I'm forever desperate for them. The 5.5 will go to Goliath. It's the perfect size to fit on top of the bookshelf in the den. I have it filled with water on the kitchen table at work, testing for leaks.



Also, my photobucket phone app has gone berserk. It's convinced that it hasn't uploaded photos, and keeps uploading the same one over and over ... successfully. I've tried restarting my phone, or just stopping the app...it keeps doing it. Ugh.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

Silhouette... wow. Just like... I did not know I could crush that hard on a fish. Woah. She... I... heavens. I legitimately cannot find the English language or words. You have me tongue tied over a fish all the way across the country. 

If I could bake decently, I would send you a plate of cookies for that. I'm just going to sit here and stare until I feel like I actually could say a full sentence with proper grammar and actual words now.


----------



## hrutan

I know, isn't she something? Would you believe there were only _three tickets_ in her cup? And only _one _in Goliath's? People were going crazy for the dragonscale ladies, but this beautiful, dark shadow of a girl went unnoticed. She is so friendly and graceful. I feel very blessed, and I can't wait to get better pictures for your enjoyment.

Feel free to crush. :shock:


----------



## hrutan

We decided to go with red sand for Goliath. I let my husband pick - since he's taken a fancy to the fish, it seems like a good idea to encourage his interest.

Have you ever used red sand? This cracked me up. It looks like gore.







The sponge filter is in there now, breaking up the floating sand. Last night it looked like it was raining blood from the surface of the water to the ground. Wonderfully creepy. Hopefully Goliath will enjoy his new home...he doesn't seem too happy in the QT tank. He's eating, so I'm not all that worried, but he's not as energetic as everyone else. I keep thinking of him as a reserved sort of gentleman.

I don't think he's ever been out of a jar since being removed from his grow-out tank. The extra space would make anyone nervous, right? Someone tell me that he'll be fine.

Anyway, with luck my first shipment of plants will come in today. I don't get to use them the way that I'd planned - silly raffle!- but they're desperately needed one way or the other. I'll give Goliath some cover so he feels more safe, and see how heavily I can plant the ladies' tank.


----------



## beautiful Betta

I think Goliath will look great in your new red tank set up. Good luck with planting it up when your plants arrive giving him some cover, you will have to post some pics.


----------



## Zuzu

Haha super goth tank. XD


----------



## hrutan

Here is Goliath's new setup:


----------



## hrutan

With Goliath moved into a permanent home, I finally had room to get Silhouette into a proper tank, even if it is only Goliath's former QT tank. It has a heater and some floaters, so it's better than a lemonade pitcher.

WHILE I WAS MOVING HER FROM THE PITCHER TO A CUP, SHE JUMPED OUT AND LANDED IN THE SINK. EEEEK!!

(Before you read the rest of this, she appears to be unharmed by her adventure!)

She flopped from the middle divider of the sink into the side with the garbage disposal, which was filled with dirty dishes and a great deal of sharp knives. A flopping fish is surprisingly difficult to catch, and I didn't manage to get her until she flopped straight into a dish filled with dirty tap water. I got her into a cup, put a drop of Prime in there, and floated her in her tank.

So yeah, the dishes are now clean. I'm never going to transfer a fish when there's dishes in the sink or an uncovered garbage disposal again. Poor Silhouette! My heart's still racing. There's not a scale out of place, but that was a scary experience for both of us.


----------



## hrutan

Silhouette is just fine this morning. She's pleased with her new digs, and when I went to check on her this morning, she was hiding under her IAL. She peeked out from under the edge, and then swam out to greet me when she saw I was there.

Goliath is showing more energy than I've seen from him so far. The plants must have done the trick...he'll swim around and use the different plants to rest on. He's a very heavy, bulky boy. Also, when he takes a breath at the surface, he is really _dramatic _about it. _GULP_. Haha. No sign of him hiding inside the skull. I want to see him do that so much.

Phoenix my tail-waggly boy is doing well this morning. I keep having to top off his tank because of evaporation. I hate the HOB filter he has. Any time the water gets even the slightest bit low, Phoenix starts swimming like he's in a gale. It's good strength training, I suppose, but I don't want him to get stressed out.

Mystique keeps getting eggy. I don't know why.


----------



## Zuzu

I love reading your journal. I feel like I know all your fishies. ;D


----------



## Pandanke

That sword sure took a beating in transit, but I am glad they got to you safely! Hopefully they fill out quick. I have to admit, that floating sand looked really gross at first! Haha.


----------



## hrutan

That's why I had to post pictures. It was so gross that it needed to be shared, lol.

I'm short a light timer. Gonna see if I can find something online - I don't like the ones they sell at Rite Aid. In the meantime, it's on at 8ish, and off at 6. That'll be shifted to 1pm-10pm after I get the timer, so we can enjoy him until bed time. The other plants seem to be fine with that schedule.


----------



## hrutan

Yesterday I went to Home Depot to get some supplies for the 75 gallon. They had light timers of the style that I prefer in a two-pack, for cheaper than I could find them anywhere else including Amazon, so I picked up two of those. That got all my remaining lights on a timer, yay, with two spare. I'm going to cannibalize the one on Silhouette's tank this coming Wednesday for the 75 gallon, since hers isn't supposed to be a permanent home.

Finally, it feels like I'm making progress!

I bought:
(4) 6,500 daylight spectrum CFL bulbs
(4) Digital Light timers
(50) Lbs of play sand

I have:
(75) gallon aquarium
(??) Lbs of Miracle Gro Organic Potting Soil
(1) Small driftwood

I need:
(1) Water Exchange System (Must measure the distance from the sink to the aquarium)
(3) Clamp Lights (Home Depot was out of stock)
More MTS. The lps has them as a "pest" and will sell them for a dollar a bag. What's hilarious is the workers don't recognize them on sight, so I have to be like "That pointy one there. Look, there's another one right there. And there. No, not that one, it's round."
Another piece of driftwood, if I can afford it. It might need to wait.

Ordered:
A large plant package from Umar. I hope it'll be enough.

To Do:
Rinse the playground sand.
Finish picking through the soil for the largest bits of wood, load more soil in the tank.

---------------------------------------------------
I forgot to buy more spring water for the work fish. I'm a bad fish mom, and only had about 3/4ths of a gallon left. Did some water tests - Mr. Kitty's water params are nearly perfect. He has only enough ammonia to give the barest of color to the test, less than .25 but greater than 0, and no nitrites. That's fine, I'm trying to cycle his tank. I added some Prime and let him be. Buttercup got the fresh water instead, since he still doesn't have a filter. He danced in the stream of water while I was pouring it in, and my coworkers and I got a good giggle watching him.


----------



## hrutan

I've been thinking, and thinking. The more I think, the less I like Silhouette sitting in that little, unfiltered QT tank. She seems very mellow and hasn't pestered her snail like the other fish have, so she might make a good community fish. She's also so beautiful that it seems almost selfish to keep her in my room, so that only I get to see her.

I think I'll add her to the 75 gallon as soon as it's planted.


----------



## VivianKJean

yay! I think she would LOVE that. She is going to have so much space!


----------



## Seki

hrutan said:


> I've been thinking, and thinking. The more I think, the less I like Silhouette sitting in that little, unfiltered QT tank. She seems very mellow and hasn't pestered her snail like the other fish have, so she might make a good community fish. She's also so beautiful that it seems almost selfish to keep her in my room, so that only I get to see her.
> 
> I think I'll add her to the 75 gallon as soon as it's planted.


There'll be so much room for activities!!!

Hahaha I couldn't resist, sorry. I bet she'll really enjoy all that space. Lucky little fishy indeed!!


----------



## hrutan

And then she'll have to accept the inevitable flurry of Panda Corys - that's what we're going to be hunting for on Friday. I'll set up a 10g QT tank. Bwahaha.

Also, Seki - your "Available Adoptions" line cuts off, the line below isn't visible.


----------



## hrutan

Purchased this morning:
25' water exchange system
Adjustable heater for a 75 gallon
3 8" diameter clamp lights

The organic potting soil is in. I washed several pail-fulls of play sand and capped the dirt over the weekend. A bunch of soil escaped from the cap, darn it, and I've been spending the past two days cleaning the floating debris out with a siphon, bucket by bucket. It should go better once I have a chance to try out the water exchange system, although I don't dare allow that water to drain through the sink. Fortunately, it looks like I can adjust the exchange tube to drain out onto the lawn.

That's a salve for my conscience, considering the drought. Ah, societal pressure. It makes me feel guilty for using water even for legitimate activities, although 80% of the water used by the state is in agricultural areas. At least this will be water for the grass - good, nutritious water, too! The lawn hasn't been watered for months, and most of it is dry and brown. Some of it has crumbled to dust.

Speaking of the drought, it looks like I might be losing my orange tree, which is a shame. I'm trying to keep it alive, but the heat this summer has been murderous, and branches are drying out one by one. I already lost my apricot tree. It was weakened enough that bark beetles were able to get a foothold, and it was gone before I even knew it. The oak looks fine, and my hedges seem to be surviving.

Last winter, we had two incredibly cold weeks in December, so cold that we thought we'd lose our orange crop, and then the temperature jumped straight into 90+ degree weather and stayed there. I can't remember the last time it was below 80 during the day. The ground is so dry and hard that when I poured out the water while rinsing sand, it just made a puddle and sat there, instead of sinking in to nourish the plants.

The 10 day forecast predicts the heat will be hovering from 87-95 during the day, with no break in sight. It'll be in the 60's at night.


----------



## blueridge

Can't wait to see pictures of your tank set up with all the plants in it! I'm sorry to hear about your orange tree, around here we have trouble some years with keeping our vegetables alive and thriving if we don't get enough rain. I'm guessing you didn't get hit by the hurricane then either since you are having drought problems. And I know about your heat struggles too!


----------



## hrutan

Thanks, Blueridge.

No, no hurricanes here. This is a chaparral climate, so we're normally water-poor, with a bit of rain in the winter and hot, dry summers. This is the hottest summer we've had in recorded history, and the worst drought we've had in around 40 years.

Just the time to take up fish keeping, right? :roll:

Once I've managed to get the water clear, I'll post a picture or two. Washing the sand was really funny, by the way. There was a point where I hauled in the bucket of sand, and I was like, "Honey, look! It worked just like the People of the Internet said it would!" **swish swish* *sand settles**

His response? "Well, of course it did, dear. Didn't you know the Internet is always right?" :lol:


----------



## blueridge

:lol: Yeah sounds about the right time to take up fish keeping. Around here in the South, we normally have 90+ degree weather during the summer with sometimes 70+ humidity. Your husband sounds like a hoot! Can't wait to see pictures!


----------



## hrutan

I've been to the South. I want rain, but the constant humidity you guys suffer is appalling. I used to want to slap people who would have the snarky response, "Oh, well it's a _dry _heat!" and now... I just nod, and agree.

Here's what the tank looks like right now. The water exchange system really helped. I've cleared up the water enough to find a few weak points in the sand cap, which I'll fix tonight. The plants should arrive tomorrow.



Oh, the weird thing in there is just a siphon tube. I left it that way so it's full of water. That way I can just grab one end and point it in the bucket.


----------



## hrutan

And, uh. Pardon the trash and random air conditioning vent on the table...we are still doing repairs from the Great Plumbing Disaster of 2014.


----------



## blueridge

:lol: Yeah the humidity can be a pain in the butt some days. Your tank is looking good! What kind of plants are you putting in it? And do you have some type of aqua-scaping in mind?


----------



## hrutan

I'm getting a large plant package filled with all sorts of good things from Umar. My aquascaping is going to basically consist of chunks of driftwood, haha. Someone's giving me a medium (10-12") pleco, so the driftwood is absolutely essential. Fortunately, it looks good, too.


----------



## hrutan

Well, Umar's shipment was delayed a day or two, but that's okay. I've finished cleaning up the aquarium and getting all the sand in there - I finished off the entire 50 pound bag. :shock: Suffered a couple of very unhappy back days. If you have a bad back, don't be like me and get all macho and think you can do it all yourself, okay? :-?

The sponge filters I got turned out to be waaaaaaayyyy too big. I went to the LPS and exchanged them for different ones. You know, the sponge filters don't say how many gallons they can handle on the packaging? Annoying!

I also got a couple of very pretty pieces of driftwood to round out the tank, and to give the pleco that I've adopted from our Classifieds section something to gnaw on. I'll post pictures when I've taken them, but right now I can't, because that was on my lunch break...

Here's what the aquarium looks like now, after a night of labor:



Not very exciting, but the additional driftwood might help. I'm also thinking about buying a big rock, which will go off-center to the left.

Any thoughts?


----------



## BlueSky99

Subscribing to your journal 
Your bettas have such interesting personalities compared to my boy. And gosh, you've done a lot of work. I'm hoping that once I'm on my own I'll be able to get a second betta (by then though I won't have a betta anymore :c ). How is your cat that has bad knees doing? It's scary when your cat is suddenly not feeling well. Our 2nd oldest has a disease that makes his gums swell up every month, so he gets a shot when that happens  (I'm not sure if it's stomatitis or not. My parents would know. He got it by killing lots of rats, mice, and birds).


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## AlgarveblueVT

you really know ur stuff and are hands on- I would never attempt to make my own tank....


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## umarnasir335

Your plants will be there tomorrow!
Hope you're happy with the variety I'm sending you - I think it's about 15+ species so you won't be getting the collectoritis itch for a little while


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## hrutan

BlueSky99 said:


> Subscribing to your journal
> Your bettas have such interesting personalities compared to my boy. And gosh, you've done a lot of work. I'm hoping that once I'm on my own I'll be able to get a second betta (by then though I won't have a betta anymore :c ). How is your cat that has bad knees doing? It's scary when your cat is suddenly not feeling well. Our 2nd oldest has a disease that makes his gums swell up every month, so he gets a shot when that happens  (I'm not sure if it's stomatitis or not. My parents would know. He got it by killing lots of rats, mice, and birds).


Thanks!

Montalban is doing well. His illness passed as quickly as it came. He was very weak for a few days from the fever, but once it broke and his appetite returned, he regained his strength. It was very scary, and I felt helpless. The antibiotics were a shot in the dark. Thank goodness they worked.

For your kitty with a bad mouth - it might be. Your vet would say for sure. My cat with Stomatitis got a type that's apparently transmitted through his mother's milk. Removing all of his teeth (except his little fangs) fixed it - the surgery was apparently a 70% chance, or he'd have needed a monthly shot, too.

Got lots done on the tank! Picked up two new pieces of driftwood, set up the new filters, and found a very pretty rock! Have a look! Bonus! SPOT THE BETTA!



Close-ups of the decor:



AlgarveblueVT - This summer, I found a passion. If that ever happens to you, chase it. Grab hold of it and don't let go, because if you let it escape, that might have been your only chance.

I had no idea what I was doing when I bought that 75 gallon, marijuana encrusted, broken down old tank. But, the learning has been so satisfying. How do I do this? What happens when I try that? Can I get the money? Will I find the time?

_Yes_. Sure, sometimes I short myself on sleep, because before bed is often the only time that I have to work on my tanks, but that's okay. A day here or there tired at work is worth it to me. So's eating Ramen for a week straight so that I could afford some of the equipment. In a week or two, I'm going to drive two hours _one way_ just to pick up a fish, and I'm happy about it.

I must be insane.

But, I have something to think about while I'm going to sleep at night, and something to look forward to when I get home from work. My husband is happy that I've found a hobby, and my roommate is a _terrible_ enabler, because she thinks fish are cute and likes to explore new pet stores with me.

Keeping ourselves busy in my house is a bit of an art, and that might have something to do with it. We don't have TV. We don't watch shows on the Internet, we don't rent movies, either. Aside from reading, _nothing _that we do in this house is passive. And, reading is generally discouraged at home -- not because it's a bad thing, I'm a freaking librarian and published author, for goodness sakes -- but because social interaction and crafty activities are prized that highly over solitary amusements.

Anyway, enough of that serious stuff. Enjoy a picture of a bunch of MTS exploring their new home:

Their trails kind of remind me of one of those zen gardens...

Also, Silhouette is enjoying herself. She's swum allllllll the way to one side, and allllllll the way to the other side, and up, and down, and around and around.

Phew. Bed now. It's late.


----------



## Zuzu

hrutan said:


> Also, Silhouette is enjoying herself. She's swum allllllll the way to one side, and allllllll the way to the other side, and up, and down, and around and around.


Oh, just think of how much fun she'll have when you get plants in there!


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## hrutan

So the MTS, as of this morning, haven't figured out that their job is to burrow. They're all huddled in the corners of the aquarium, instead. They've never actually seen sand before, but hopefully that digging instinct will kick in soon.


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## Zuzu

LOL for some reason that makes me think of my Bug when she was a baby. The first few times we tried to get her to touch grass with her bare feet, she would simply bend her knees to lift them up. She wasn't upset and didn't fuss, she was just like, "Nope. Not doing it."


----------



## Reccka

I just decided to check out the Journal section for once. Your tank is looking great!  I'm glad you don't mind the drive for Hercules! I'm sure he'll be very happy with you. It just looks so roomy in there!


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## blueridge

Oh wow you have come a long way with your tank! It is looking great ;-) Can't wait to see these plants once you get them.


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## hrutan

The plants didn't arrive today (darn USPS, they had to go what, like 50 miles, tops?), but I _did _find a batch of panda corys!


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## hrutan

Shhhh...we're acclimating...



Turns out, that heater was smaller wattage than I thought, and I need to run and buy a new one tomorrow. Whooops. Well, it'll keep the water from getting too cool, anyway.

There are 8 of them. Some look great, some have torn fins and questionable coloring. I see a few sets of gills that are suspiciously pink. The lighting in that shop wasn't all that great, or I might not have bought them at all. But still, there they are, and hopefully a little babying will sort them out.

Sick or not, the whole lot of them are cute as buttons.


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## blueridge

I hate it when my postal service does stuff like that too :/ Your panda corys are too cute ^.^ Can't wait to see them swimming around and healthy!


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## hrutan

Well, for all of my paranoia, all the corys survived until morning. I'm going to toddle over to the lps on my lunch break and buy them some white sand (if they have it) and a bigger heater. Bare bottom might keep the tank nice and clean, but I should be able to see any waste on white sand, and they'll be happier with something to putter around in.

I gave them IAL and some tannins from my last wood boiling, and they are more active this morning than they were last night. One of them has almost no tail fin. The rest are better as far as that goes - some look frayed around the edges. The red gills worry me. I should've asked whether they were wild-caught. Since so many fish trappers use poison, sometimes the wild-caught die even when you do everything right.

They don't seem to understand what fish flakes are, but some of them were snuffling around after a little while, so I'll leave the flakes in until it's about time to go to work, and then siphon them out. I want them to eat. Pandas should be chubby.

On the up side, no signs of ich, no cottony growths, no rot. They are panda piling in the corners. Looks like the makeshift cave I made them was insufficient. I'll see what I can do. They're going to be there for three weeks, so they should be comfortable.

I'll take pictures after I get some sand in there. The reflection on the bare bottom makes it difficult to get anything good.

---

Goliath is the laziest fish ever. It figures I'd put a total slug out in the den for us to watch. Sheesh. He has a habit of swimming to the top of the sword plant and wrapping himself in the leaves as though he's in a bed with a blanket, and he'll stay there and snooze.

Or he'll lay down in the sand next to the sponge filter, on his side, and stop moving. The first time he did that, he scared the stuffing out of me. I thought he was dead! EEEK!

Goliath isn't sick, he's just lazy and seems to have taken a long time to get used to living here. He has a nice, healthy appetite. It took me a while to figure out that he'll only eat floating food, or food from tweezers. And Mysis shrimp are _straight out_, thank you very much. He's started to flare at me, sometimes. Or flare at nothing in particular. That's fine, too.


----------



## hrutan

Went to the lps to pick up a better heater - got that and some algae wafers. They didn't have any white sand, and I won't use another color in a QT tank. I want to be able to see and siphon everything out. So, they will have to deal with the bare bottom. Sorry, little buddies!

This is the best pic I could get of a few of them. Look! Tiny, gleaming eyes! Bandito masks! Whiskers!


And just while I was typing, my plants arrived!! YAY!! Thanks, USPS..._yesterday _I'd have had time to plant them...today I may have to just float them until I can get to them tomorrow. Yargh.


----------



## umarnasir335

Panda cories are some of the cutest varieties available. They're very hard to find here locally. I'm glad you found them because they'll go perfectly with the light colored sand in your 75


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## hrutan

I went to six fish and pet stores before finding some...they really were quite hard to find!


----------



## Amaranthia

Just read your entire thread and subscribed :-D. You're a bit of an inspiration to me, since I would also like to have multiple fish and planted tanks all over my house, someday...


----------



## hrutan

There's gotta be _some_ upside to owning a house. **thinking about the plumbing**

I was messing with something aquarium related yesterday...can't remember what it was. Something to do with the corys, I think. Anyway, all was quiet. My husband was walking down the hall, and he suddenly stopped, looked around, and said "What happened to my house? There are fish everywhere!"

I just smiled and answered, "You said you didn't mind fish..."


----------



## VivianKJean

Literally, the first questions I ask people on the 2nd date is "i hope you like fish".


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## blueridge

OMG they are the cutest little buggers ever!


----------



## hrutan

Hey, guys! Look! A planted tank!


Plus bonus Montalban tail.

The java ferns are just sitting on the bottom until I can find something to fasten them with...

There's lots of stuff in here.


For a while, I couldn't find Mystique. I was panicked because I'd raised the water level. Oh, there she is!


There are a number of plants that I wasn't quite sure what to do with, and left floating. There'll be a thread on the planted tank section to share and ask.

The pandas eat by breaking their flakes into smaller and smaller pieces, and then nibbling the bits. They're adorable.


----------



## VivianKJean

hahah awe  it looks like your girl likes to play hide and seek! I'm sure the tank gives her LOTS of places to hide from you.


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## BlueSky99

Looking nice


----------



## hrutan

I finished planting the tank, and then forgot to take pictures. Now I'm at work. Sigh! The water is getting dark with tannins, but that's okay for now. Guess I didn't boil the new driftwood long enough.

Speaking of driftwood, my husband was looking at the side of the tank and started laughing. The newest piece, when viewed at the right angle, looks like a headless man crawling out of the mud. Only a little creepy, honey.

The fish are all doing well. The pandas are clustering up and being cute in their QT tank. I've just discovered that they need a lower temperature than most tropical fish, so I'm setting the heater to 76 instead of my usual 80. That's still tolerable for everyone else.

Speaking of tanks...

My next payday purchase is going to have to be a good shelving unit for my bedroom, so that I can get things ready for breeding. It looks like, due to ammonia in my tap water, I'll have to have _at least_ one spare cycled 20 gallon to mature water before I can use it for changes while I'm raising fry. Maybe two would be better. I'm thinking about lining the bottom with shredded IAL, or making concentrated IAL tea, so they can have the benefits of that wonderful plant.

Copper VT females are on my watch list. Please check out my classified post for more information.

To Do:
Clean up one of the spare 10 gallons, and insert two dividers. Get yet another sponge filter and start it cycling. I need a place for breeder fish. I might also divide Mystique's aquarium, but if I do that, it'll have to be a last ditch thing. She uses ALL of her space. Such an energetic girl!


----------



## hrutan

Montalban gave us another scare today. He was tense, unhappy, and looked scared. UTTERLY compliant when picked up, and would stay exactly where he was put down, hunched. Pupils dilated.

When my roommate got home, I asked her to help me check him for wounds, since he was acting injured. We didn't find anything, but he was acting like his butt hurt...so maybe a mat in his fur? She flipped him over on his back to check...

...and he farted. _LOUDLY_.

Okay, gassy boy. Have some hairball meds and go stink up the place somewhere else, buddy.


----------



## hrutan

Montalban is fine this morning. 

I think it's time for an update on my work boys!

Mr. Kitty is driving me crazy. His fin melt hasn't budged after two rounds of Triple Sulfa. Ordered some Kanaplex. Hopefully that will do the trick. I wish he would be healthy and _stay _that way, instead of getting sick with one ailment after another.

Today he was displaying horizontal bars. Don't let anyone tell you they're a reliable way to tell male from female...because he is most certainly male. Not sure why he's doing this, but he was barring up yesterday, too.

Sorry for the blurry pic. He's quite active.


The Java Ferns in his tank have gone nuts. Lots of new growth at the base, and they've finally started grabbing the gravel. All the short leaves are new.



As for Buttercup...
He's healthy and attentive, as always. Fin regrowth is happening. For a while, it stalled. As an experiment, I tried him on Melafix for about 5 days. He had no adverse effects, and by day 3 I noticed a lot of transparent new finnage. I stopped treatment, did a water change, and added IAL. Today I noticed that he's getting some butterfly coloring back on his dorsal fin.

Thank you for posing so nicely, Buttercup!

This is him before the Melafix, and then IAL treatment:


This is him today:


All in all, I'm not sure which spurred more fin regrowth, but both worked just fine. Since I can get IAL at the local pet shop, I'll probably stick with that since it also acts as a stress-reliever, and a pack of four leaves is cheaper than a bottle of medicine.


----------



## Jonthefish

Good to hear about buttercup !


----------



## blueridge

Glad to see all the plants in your tank. It looks wonderful! Also glad to hear that your boys are doing well too and curing from their aliments.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Is mr.kitty clamped also? 
And yay buttercup looks good


----------



## hrutan

It's hard to tell, because the fins are in such bad shape - but I'd say, probably yes. I'm thinking it's time to swap Buttercup and Mr. Kitty's tanks, take Mr. Kitty home, and give him a calmer environment so that he can focus on healing instead of annoying little children. Maybe I'll have more success that way.

Do you think there'd be trouble with me swapping tanks?


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I don't think it would be a problem but since Mr Kitty's tank isnt cycle anyway I would go ahead and nuke it, clean out from head to toe


----------



## hrutan

Bleargh, and right when the ferns were getting established, too. =p


----------



## hrutan

Ah, the boss says, don't switch the fish. Leave the tank empty with a note saying Mr. Kitty is on vacation, lol.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

^+1, that works. Photoshop a pic of him at the beach


----------



## hrutan

Well, looks like I have a week, maybe a week and a half until my new fish arrives. Let's see what I can get done, shall we?

OH, RIGHT. NEW FISH. Can't wait to see him in person! He better live up to the price, yikes. lol. The seller is Npbetta. No bad reviews, and answered my questions promptly. The transshipper will be Linda Olsen. Julie Tran would have been closer, but didn't bother to answer her email and is closed Monday and Tuesday, sheesh.

He's exactly what I need for my breeding project. Now to find the right VT female.


----------



## Nimble

hrutan said:


> He's exactly what I need for my breeding project. Now to find the right VT female.


Why are you breeding such a lovely Halfmoon to a Veiltail? What do you hope to accomplish?


----------



## hrutan

I want black butterfly VTs for show in the "Forms and Variations class." It won't get me many points, but I honestly don't care. VTs are my love, and working on a quality line isn't going to somehow "waste" that male. Multiple pet stores in the area have agreed to take any extras, so I do not need to worry about an outlet for the culls.

My LPS, as a matter of fact, was very excited. Apparently they're having a time of it trying to get VTs, and can stock them only rarely. All the money's in HMs and CTs, so their suppliers don't have many VTs, even though they are quite popular in the pet market.

I'm breeding HM to VT because I'm not going to be able to get anything but pet store VTs to work from, and there's nothing but blues or reds basically anywhere around here. No melanos, or butterflies, which means I have to find the traits elsewhere. Unless I get lucky, I'm practically going to be turning over rocks to find a suitable female. I would _prefer _to start with a copper female, if I can.


----------



## Nimble

hrutan said:


> I want black butterfly VTs for show in the "Forms and Variations class." It won't get me many points, but I honestly don't care. VTs are my love, and working on a quality line isn't going to somehow "waste" that male. Multiple pet stores in the area have agreed to take any extras, so I do not need to worry about an outlet for the culls.
> 
> My LPS, as a matter of fact, was very excited. Apparently they're having a time of it trying to get VTs, and can stock them only rarely. All the money's in HMs and CTs, so their suppliers don't have many VTs, even though they are quite popular in the pet market.
> 
> I'm breeding HM to VT because I'm not going to be able to get anything but pet store VTs to work from, and there's nothing but blues or reds basically anywhere around here. No melanos, or butterflies, which means I have to find the traits elsewhere. Unless I get lucky, I'm practically going to be turning over rocks to find a suitable female. I would _prefer _to start with a copper female, if I can.


A noble endeavor, and I can see why you're going for it. Good luck and godspeed, good fishkeeper.


----------



## hrutan

It's gonna be a long, hard road. But that's part of what makes it worth it.


----------



## hrutan

More-boring-than-usual journal update:

Mystique is acting lethargic and turned down food this morning. She looks very heavy with eggs. The water parameters are good - the water's at 80 and the tank has finally finished cycling and shows up as 0, 0, 20, but I'll give her a water change before work, anyway. Fasting for a couple of days may be in order. She's usually bright and curious, but was laying on her egg-heavy belly this morning and part of yesterday. No difficulty swimming, so not SBD.

Mr. Kitty is content in his 4 gallon QT...that was the smallest I had, haha. He's never had frozen food before, but when I offered him blood worms last night, and daphnia this morning, he was like OH NOMS! So that's good. Hopefully the Kanaplex will arrive soon. He really does look awful.

Phoenix is Phoenix. I love that little tail waggler. Always bright and sunny, eager to eat, and healthy. Nothing phases him.

Goliath decided that he has changed his mind and will eat daphnia, but only if it is presented on the tip of a pair of tweezers. And then it must be flared at quite fiercely before eating.

Silhouette is showing signs of wear. I think most of it is still fallout from her sink adventure, but she may be scraping herself on the driftwood. Definitely need to keep an eye on her.

The pandas are pandaing and looking adorable.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

=)


----------



## umarnasir335

So you said that you wanted VTs from a line with a HMxVT cross.

The most practical thing to do here would be to cross your nice import boy to another female with SD or Delta finnage. Finding a copper VT female will be next to impossible and you would be working backwards in terms of how the long finnage of the VT is held.

Take perfect finnage, cross it with a less than perfect halfmoon female copper (which will be easier to find). You might have to do a F2 cross between non-ideal Delta x Delta to a VT.

These are my 2 cents here because I have personally seen pet store VTs crossed to semi decent / nice fish. Most of the spawn results in very unbalanced finnage, especially the anal fin. Getting a SD/D will allow for many fish to pop out that could have less than ideal HM finnage and you could work from there.
*I forgot to put here that even with perfect HMs, a cross never results in 100% perfect HMs because HM finnage, balance, length, etc. is based on so many different alleles. That's why the dumbing down of a female would work for attaining VTs.


----------



## hrutan

umarnasir335 said:


> So you said that you wanted VTs from a line with a HMxVT cross.
> 
> The most practical thing to do here would be to cross your nice import boy to another female with SD or Delta finnage. Finding a copper VT female will be next to impossible and you would be working backwards in terms of how the long finnage of the VT is held.
> 
> Take perfect finnage, cross it with a less than perfect halfmoon female copper (which will be easier to find). You might have to do a F2 cross between non-ideal Delta x Delta to a VT.
> 
> These are my 2 cents here because I have personally seen pet store VTs crossed to semi decent / nice fish. Most of the spawn results in very unbalanced finnage, especially the anal fin. Getting a SD/D will allow for many fish to pop out that could have less than ideal HM finnage and you could work from there.
> *I forgot to put here that even with perfect HMs, a cross never results in 100% perfect HMs because HM finnage, balance, length, etc. is based on so many different alleles. That's why the dumbing down of a female would work for attaining VTs.


Hmm. That would work? Well, I suppose if HMs were developed up from VTs...


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I agree that it'd be easier to start with a delta but even finding a nice solid colored VT then going for color would work


----------



## hrutan

Crap, crap. That light colored spot near Silhouette's head that I thought was a missing scale has sprouted a very small amount of cottony strands.

INTO THE QUARANTINE CUP WITH YOU, MISSY.

Stuck her in the quart cup she came in, with Stress Coat and Melafix, which is supposed to work in the early stage. I had to mix the conditioner and meds in a separate gallon jug. At least Kanaplex is already in the mail! According to the tracking number, that should arrive today. Lower temperatures are supposed to slow down the growth, so I'm not going to float her. It's plenty warm in the house to keep her at a safe, but not as high, temperature.

Tested the water in the 75g. It's the same as the tap, which isn't great. When the plants take off, it'll clean up quick - I'm still going to buy SafeStart and dump it in.

Poor Silhouette! I wish she hadn't jumped!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Jeez, seems like you're running out of QT tanks, I hate to suggest it but why not go buy a "deathbowl" (.5g bowl) or two


----------



## hrutan

I will be taking care of that on my lunch break. I'm not worried about the size of her cup - daily or twice daily water changes will keep her safe enough - but I can't see her very well, so I can't monitor her progress. I have three QT chambers going on right now. Sheesh!


----------



## umarnasir335

Yeah, regarding Silhouette, I wanted to say something regarding the tank parameters since you have a newly established dirt tank and ammonia leaches from the bed for the first 2 weeks, sometimes in large amounts. This could be a large cause for concern especially since the tank would be nowhere near being cycled.

Placing your new pleco in the uncylcled 75 would also be a cause for concern once you get it. I would recommend water changes at least every 3 days if you have no other choice but to do a fish-in cycle because it's such a large fish.


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, that's actually what I've been doing. The lawn's been getting a good watering! :-D The params are getting tested daily. I'm thinking Silhouette's fallen ill largely due to having an open wound, because the ammonia levels are the same as in the tap. Been monitoring it carefully because I was worried about the same thing.


----------



## hrutan

Excellent, I got to work, and the meds package is sitting on my desk. Hooray for stuff for my fish babies! I had some of this stuff already, but more isn't going to hurt.

Let's see...I got...
KanaPlex
Methylene Blue
StressZyme+
A nice, big bottle of Prime
StressCoat+
A sinking log (random, but I'm sure someone's gonna love it)
An envelope of Flourish Tabs
Maracyn Two
API Fungus Cure
API Betta Pellets (not sure what I think of those)
Aquarium Salt
and what looks like a full API Freshwater Master Test Kit

Thanks, Phantom Miria! It's like Christmas!


----------



## hrutan

Started Mr. Kitty on Kanaplex last night. He gave me a fright, because a few minutes after I added the medicated water, he turned gray - without the usual stress stripes. But, he was his normal navy blue this morning, so that's good. His appetite is great! Not in the slightest bit picky. He's eaten daphnia, mysis shrimp, and bloodworms, and the only fuss was that he wanted more. He was much easier to feed than Phoenix, who misses his food and refuses to chase it if he still sees the eyedropper, or Goliath, who won't eat unless it's above his head. And then he must flare at it first.

I got two 1gal quarantine tanks from the local pet shop. They're small, easy to carry, and crystal clear. Moved Silhouette from her cup and into one of those, and stashed another as a spare. She already looks better with just the Stress Coat and Bettafix. The cottony strands are gone, so I'm not going to use big guns on her. She can get treated with Bettafix for a week with daily water changes, and I think that'll do nicely. That stuff _does _work, as long as treatment is started before the condition gets bad.

Mystique is starting to alarm me. I've filled out a thread in Diseases and Emergencies. Her water parameters and temp are perfect. I hope she isn't egg bound. Poor baby. She was an impulse buy and I'm not terribly attached to her, but I don't want her to be hurt. And, my husband really likes her because she's usually zipping and zooming around, so she's interesting to watch.

The pandas are busy being adorable.

The manager at the local pet shop has a purple-bodied rose tail she'd like to rehome. I don't have room for any more pet fish in my setups, since I'm trying to get ready to breed, but my roommate's been promised a tank for the kitchen. We're going to go have a look together either tomorrow or Saturday, and see if she likes him. He was at the same raffle where I won Goliath and Silhouette - and he's _heart-stoppingly_ beautiful.

We'll see. My roommate's true love is crowntails. It makes me a bit nervous because rose tails have such problems swimming after a while. In extreme cases you might have to trim their tail, yiiiiikes, but on the other hand, if we take him then he will be properly cared for.


----------



## hrutan

Ah, I did find a picture of that rose tail, after all.


----------



## hrutan

My hunny has named the incoming male "Primus." Seems good.


----------



## Zuzu

As in Les Claypool?


----------



## hrutan

As in "First," Latin origins.


----------



## hrutan

Well, it seems Mr. Pleco couldn't handle the stress of the move combined with the conditions that his former owner had kept him in. I'm so disappointed! We tried. Poor guy. And now I kind of _have _to have a pleco, or some other interesting large catfish. But I'll take some time and make sure it's something that'll be happy in a 75g long run. There are so many varieties, there ought to be something for me at the LPS...


----------



## Zuzu

Oh, sI'm so sorry to hear that! Bless you and Reccka for trying.

Here's an interesting catfish that I stumbled upon while researching yesterday: http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Catfish, Raphael.htm They don't get too big, but apparently they live a LONG time! 

Good luck with whatever you decide.


----------



## hrutan

Hmm, says "Do not trust with small fish," so even though he's cute...the pandas will have to come first. I might go for a baby pleco, depending on adult size of whichever species I can find.


----------



## hrutan

We bought a baby pleco, the "orange spot" variety. He's cute and will probably be called Toothless. We also bought two bettas - a multicolored HM butterfly, and a black orchid HM for my roommate.

I really _didn't _have room. And yet somehow...the girls will be going in the 75 gallon together. I added 3 more swords and there's a HUGE amount of room, so it should be okay. It's not like they'll be in a 10g with nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

No luck on a female. I did get report binder slider thingies to start making a divided 10gallon for breeding stock. Primus should arrive next week.


----------



## hrutan

There has been a Husbandly Edict of No More Fish (Except for Breeding Purposes). Totally fair.


----------



## hrutan

Toothless, when released into the 75g, made a beeline for the piece of cucumber that had been left for him and did a great deal of slurping before he explored his new home. My roommate has claimed *both* new bettas, lol, which is fine. She was so delighted to feed them blood worms. No "moving in, too stressed to eat" tummies for them! The multicolored butterfly (now named Hades) was so crazy for blood worms that he scavenged scraps that he'd missed off of the sand. Vladimir (sold as a black orchid HM) was quite eager to eat as well, but more of a gentleman.

Pics tomorrow, hopefully. I'm too tired tonight. And the Sims 4 has distracted me.


----------



## Reccka

I'm glad to hear you found another pleco you liked! I wish you the best! Sounds like your tank is going really well.  Toothless is actually really fitting for a pleco! lol


----------



## hrutan

*Mini Photo Shoot*

I forgot my phone at home, so I trotted back to get it during my lunch break. While I was at it, I took a few pictures!

Toothless nomming on a piece of cucumber:


Why upside down? BECAUSE HE CAN!

My roommate's new boy Vladimir:


My roommate's other new boy Hades:
Blurry pic 1


Blurry pic 2


Hades is really interesting. His body is green, and his fins have green bleeding into a thick yellow butterfly band, followed by a black butterfly band, and his iridescence is blue. I haven't seen any other fish quite like him.

This is what he looked like when he was flaring at the pet shop:


Some day, I'll get a pic in good lighting.

Anyway.

The pandas are being pandas.


Phoenix's tail was being especially twisty:


Goliath is grumpy:


BONUS CLOSE-UP!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

D'awww <3


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## VivianKJean

WOW! look how much Phoenix has coloured up! that makes me so happy to see!


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, Phoenix really has colored up, hasn't he? He's actually still coloring up. Those clear patches will probably turn white, and then orange, if they follow the same pattern.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

^+1 viv, it's strange to think that when we first met pheonix he was a pale yellow orange (ps. If you don't like me calling you viv please say so!


----------



## Zuzu

Hee, I love the spots on Toothless! Makes me want a little polka-dotted pleco. XD

And Hades is gorgeous. I am seriously coveting.


----------



## VivianKJean

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> ^+1 viv, it's strange to think that when we first met pheonix he was a pale yellow orange (ps. If you don't like me calling you viv please say so!


Viv is fine  that is what everyone pretty much calls me


----------



## Fenghuang

Toothless is _awesome!_ I love plecos, but they are so hard to photograph sometimes. All your other fish are nice too. :-D


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## hrutan

I told my husband, "He's going to get pretty big. If he gets too big, in a couple years we might have to get a bigger tank."

I held my hands out apart at an approximate size. He disputed that I was showing him 2 feet, and countered with his own estimate. Then we had to have a contest with a measuring tape and figure out which one of us was correct with the "I caught a fish this big!" hand spread. I won with exactly 24 inches. Muahaha.

The 75 gallon is sweet - but there's about a foot of room on either side of the wall where it's placed, so we can upgrade if we need to.


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## hrutan

HE'S ARRIVED! PRIMUS! Foundation male for the line I hope to create. Woo!

Pale with stress, but otherwise intact. It doesn't even look like he fin nipped.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Wow pale indeed! Do you have a pic of what he should look like?


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## Tress

Can't wait to see him when he's all settled in 
Glad he came intact


----------



## hrutan

This is his auction photo:


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## TripleChrome

He is gorgeous. Can't wait to see him color up to his auction photo once he is used to his new home.


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## hrutan

He's already getting darker, even still in the bag. I think the postal carrier wasn't being particularly careful with him. Leaving work in EIGHT minutes. Can't wait to start the drip and get him acclimated.


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## hrutan

So, uh. Mystique seems to have fallen in love with Toothless. I just caught them cuddling. Seriously. And no, she's not super thin, but she torqued herself to stare at me and looks funny from that angle, lol. Like, "What? Leave us alone!"


----------



## Tress

Haha thats adorable xD


----------



## TripleChrome

Now that is adorable. I have never seen a Betta and a pleco relationship to where they like each other.


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## hrutan

Hello, my handsome boy. Someday, you shall be the father of many.

PRIMUS.


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## Thothgirl

He is SOO stunning!


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## hrutan

I lost one of my pandas this morning after a water change. I don't know why. The temp was the same and everything. He was the one with the missing tail fin, so maybe he was already not in very good health. Such a shame.


----------



## hrutan

Today I:

Bought 2 potted Anubias for the "breeder fish" tank.
Traded a grindal worm starter culture for a vinegar eel starter culture.
Found a lovely red VT female.

Her name is Elizabeth Bathory. May she stay young forever...and produce many babies.


----------



## Zuzu

Oh my, what gorgeous prospective parentals you have!


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## Nimble

Good luck with the breeding, hrutan. I'll be keeping my eye out. Be sure to post a spawn log with pictures regularly. :3


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## BlueInkFish

Wow! They both are indeed stunning!!!


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## hrutan

I lost another panda this morning.. down to 6. This is why we quarantine? I'm puzzled because neither showed signs of illness.


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## BlueInkFish

That's very odd... Usually fish should be fine without quarantine. Unless their very sensitive to water params.


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## hrutan

I'm a big proponent of QT, at least for fish. Medicating a 75 gallon tank if one sick fish gets in sounds...horrible.


----------



## Tress

Poor Pandas D: I hope you don't lose anymore!


----------



## Pandanke

Corydoras are fairly sensitive to water params and general happiness, so I'm not superbly surprised. I did not lose any of mine, but that means nothing. I hear stories about them and Otos being super finicky


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I'm thinking it was a conditions issue. I found some icky stuff under their hidey hole cup. As soon as the 75 is cycled (nitrites are fading!) They will go in. Something for me to learn from.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I quarantine my fish when it's absolutely necessary, my lfs has an amazing source of fish so I trust them, they have no dead fish when I'm their. But otherwise I quarantine the fish I think are very sensitive to water params ^__^!


----------



## hrutan

I took a calculated risk and put the cories into the big tank even though the water parameters weren't perfect yet. The nitrites were almost gone. The pandas had been in QT long enough that I was confident their deaths weren't due to illness. After a half hour of acclimation, they went in...and once they swam to the ground, disappeared.

It turns out that the sand and blotches of escaped substrate are exactly the same colors as a panda cory. The little guys are practically invisible. When I can find them, they do appear more active than they had in the QT.

I haven't lost any more, yet. Keeping a close eye on the water parameters and crossing my fingers.

Mystique is spending her time alternately hanging out with the pandas and chilling with Toothless. Her fins are perkier than they've been in a while. She doesn't appear to be harassing anyone. How odd, I think I had a lonely betta!

My breeding set up is getting close to completion. I'm feeding Primus and Elizabeth well, and working on seasoning a couple more sponge filters. Soon Mr. Kitty will return to the library. In one week, I'll buy a shelving unit and move the tanks into position.

I've received information that the Petco $1/gallon sale will be starting on the 28th. If this is correct, I'll pick up another 20 gallon. That will leave me with:

1) 10 gallon spawn tank / grow out tank
2) Secondary 10 gallon for grow out
3) 20 gallon for aging tap water
4) 20 gallon "emergency" grow-out tank, in case of a bigger spawn

I'm going to pick up another good air pump and 3 more medium sponge filters, and just run all of the filters including the cycled one together in the 20 gallon. That way, I can pull them when they are cycled to help keep the grow outs clean.

I have a grindal worm culture and vinegar eel culture maturing right now, and will receive a micro worm and walter worm culture in the mail this week. That leaves only a BBS hatchery, and there's no hurry on that.

Shopping list:
1 air pump
3 medium sponge filters
1 20 gallon tank
Shelving unit

Shopping list for later:
Heat tape
Thermostat
Mason Jars or similar from the dollar store

Yep, settled on heat tape as my jar warming method. It seems so much tidier than immersing jars in water. That's a real concern - my bedroom is carpeted. I don't want lots and lots of random drips soaking in and creating mold, later.

Aging water will in general solve a lot of problems for me. My tap water is pretty horrible, meaning that all my tanks have to be cycled if I don't age the water or buy spring water. But, if this works out I can safely keep my fish in smaller containers, and always have a ready source of clean, at-temperature water available.

I know most people say, 2.5 gallons or bust! But, that doesn't work very well when you hope to breed more seriously than a spawn every now and then. Where will I put the fish that I'm considering for breeding? Must I have a 2.5 gallon for potentially a couple dozen "keeper" fish? No. Let's be serious here, people. They raise them in _whiskey bottles_ in Thailand. As long as the water is clean and warm, the fish will be fine.

I don't advocate that for pets, though. What's the point of keeping a beautiful creature for your own enjoyment and companionship, if it just sits in a little, boring jar and can't do anything?


----------



## Pandanke

It is definitely a frustrating reality for breeding, of course we'd all love to keep them in big beautiful tanks, but that just doesn't work as well as it sounds. The best options I've seen are breeder boxes with lid in shallow plastic totes, but the issue with it is if issues strike one, they strike the whole tote...

Although, realistically, with cross-anything, that risk exists already.

I've seen neat drip methods as well which constantly circulate warm fresh water, but that does expose you to random spillage without utmost care. I have began keeping plastic on the ground in the vicinity of the tanks I pull stuff in and out of recently. We have carpet even in our bathrooms at the new apartment!


----------



## hrutan

I'm thinking separate jars will work pretty well, as long as I have heat tape to keep the temperature steady. The water tank will have a heater. With same-temperature water and using the same source, acclimation won't be necessary. I cup my hand over the mouth of the jar, pour the old water into a waste bucket, catch the fish, pour new water in gently, and done. Shouldn't take more than 30 seconds or so once I practice. I've seen them do it that way at the LPS, and their bettas are in excellent condition. It would be faster if I shortcutted by dipping the jar in the tank, but I've heard some horror stories about people losing whole spawns to disease from shared equipment.


----------



## hrutan




----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Awwww


----------



## BlueInkFish

XD to cute!!


----------



## VivianKJean

omg! so cute!


----------



## Tress

Haha cats watching fish are so cute :3
The tank is looking good!


----------



## Veloran

hrutan said:


> I know most people say, 2.5 gallons or bust! But, that doesn't work very well when you hope to breed more seriously than a spawn every now and then. Where will I put the fish that I'm considering for breeding? Must I have a 2.5 gallon for potentially a couple dozen "keeper" fish? No. Let's be serious here, people. They raise them in _whiskey bottles_ in Thailand. As long as the water is clean and warm, the fish will be fine.


Ok, well, if you're dead set on using whiskey bottles, I guess I can sacrifice and help out, just get me a glass and I'll help empty them out.


----------



## autojoy

Oh, the cat is so beautiful ^__^


----------



## Thothgirl

Veloran said:


> Ok, well, if you're dead set on using whiskey bottles, I guess I can sacrifice and help out, just get me a glass and I'll help empty them out.


I will, as well, happily sacrifice some minor liver function for this great cause!


----------



## Crossroads

Veloran said:


> Ok, well, if you're dead set on using whiskey bottles, I guess I can sacrifice and help out, just get me a glass and I'll help empty them out.
> 
> 
> Thothgirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will, as well, happily sacrifice some minor liver function for this great cause!
Click to expand...

I've got a rum bottle at home you can have haha its a .7 L
I'd have to finish it off first


----------



## hrutan

Haha, I'm going to use mason jars.

...which means you really should be drinking moonshine. *ahem*


----------



## Nimble

Or lots of jam you get from farmers' markets. But more realistically; moonshine.

If/When I start to breed, I'll probably get a bunch of those 1-quart plastic containers from the local Chinese Food place. They've got millions of them that they use to keep fresh-made sweet-tea or pink-lemonade, and they'd probably be willing to sell me a couple hundred for $10 or tell me where they order them from.

Also, their crab rangoon is pretty boss.


----------



## hrutan

...crab rangoon...mmm


----------



## Nimble

Crab Rangoon is basically the best appetizer of all chinese food.

It is the dragonscale double-tail halfmoon of chinese food.


----------



## Thothgirl

I can actually get Lousiana Moonshine. but I would have to supply my own mason jars. hmmm. does that count as helping?

also... wontons.... drool.


----------



## hrutan

Yes.

Also, I got flightless fruit flies! They look like ants. Did you know they can jump? I didn't.

Pacoima Library now may also have flightless fruit flies.

Try saying flightless fruit flies five times fast.


----------



## Nimble

What're you going to do with the flightless fruit flies?


----------



## VivianKJean

you feed them to your fish.


----------



## hrutan

Feed them to my fish! They're yummy and nutritious, and the culture came with WAY more than it needs to sustain the population, so I'll start feeding them to my conditioning pair right away.

Their diet now:
Live Flightless Fruit Flies
Frozen Daphnia
Frozen Blood Worms
Live Grindal Worms (occasionally)

The grindals seem to multiply pretty slowly, and I wanted more variety.


----------



## Nimble

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming you're going to be using BBS for the fry when that happens?


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I'll alternate it with something else, though. I have grindals, microworms, walter worms, and vinegar eels. No bbs yet, but I don't think I need the hatchery ready for a while.


----------



## Nimble

Are the microworms a necessity for rearing fry? At what age are they capable of eating the BBS without trouble?


----------



## hrutan

Microworms aren't a necessity, they are just easy and fast, and have high protein content. As a matter of fact, it's a very bad idea to feed your fry _only _microworms. A microworm only diet has been linked to missing ventrals in fry. While the prevalent opinion is that this is due to bacterial growth at the bottom of the tank (the claim is that the fry that swim at the bottom drag the fin buds through the bacteria and it eats them away), the most likely answer is that they are missing a nutrient or amino acid that turns on the gene that signals it's time for ventral fin growth.

You can feed BBS quite early. My plan is to feed them some BBS at 2 weeks.

I actually have much more food than is necessary, but it's all in the attempts to have a nice, rotating diet so that anything that might be missing nutritionally from one item can be found in another.


----------



## Nimble

I look forward to the spawn log when it happens. If I have money and am looking when the time comes, I might snag one of your little guys up.


----------



## hrutan

Sounds awesome. If everything goes as planned (and we all know how _that _goes), I'll begin breeding next week, and should have fish ready for homes in January.


----------



## Nimble

Ooh, January. I'd be careful about shipping in the winter. Not everywhere is lovely 60+ F. in the Winter as is in LA.


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I forget that sometimes, haha. Gen 2 (which should include some melanos) should end up being ready in May.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Then you should make preparations for me to come by and pick up fry XD!!!


----------



## Pippin

January is a great time to be finishing with your fry! Christmas is December, my Dad's birthday in January, and mine in February! Perfect time for bettas to be sold!


----------



## hrutan

I feel very anxious that everything goes well. I mean, for all the preparation, this is still going to be my very first batch.


----------



## hrutan

The microworm and walter worm cultures were twice as big as what I needed, so I made two cultures of each. If none of them crash, my friend at the pet store can have my spares. They were cheap and making the culture was pretty easy. I used masa flour instead of oatmeal, because I've heard it smells a lot better that way. I also got way more fruit flies than I needed, so I'm creating an experiment to see if I can make a second culture of those. I plan on using them plenty, so having lots would be super nice.

Which reminds me, always leave feedback for your vendors...positive, negative, or neutral. Everything helps!

Back to water changes.


----------



## DaytonBetta

I also keep flightless fruit flies for my frogs. I have heard that after a few generations you will start to get flying ones. My cultures from Petsmart last about 2 1/2 months. I've never seen any flying ones. The variety I have, D hydreii, have a 25 day life cycle.

I look forward to hearing about your fruit fly experiment and your betta breeding!


----------



## hrutan

That's interesting, flying ones? That would be frustrating, although still workable.

When I was setting up the nematode cultures, the instructions said to watch out about holes in the lids for air, because fruit flies will smell the yeast and come in to lay their eggs. That gave me an idea.

I had some leftover yeast from making the other cultures, so what I did was grab a small tupperware, fill the bottom with masa flour mixed with water to make a thick paste, added a small amount of yeast, stuck a couple old-ish cherry tomatoes in there, and then layered it with a few cut up straws for walking space. I put pinholes in the tupperware lid and shook in about 6 flies before closing it.

We'll see what happens.


----------



## MattsBettas

Ok, so it's late and I'm bored and should really be sleeping but instead I'm lying here reading this. I just wanted to jump back to this comment, because I have the exact same dilemma-



> I know most people say, 2.5 gallons or bust! But, that doesn't work very well when you hope to breed more seriously than a spawn every now and then. Where will I put the fish that I'm considering for breeding? Must I have a 2.5 gallon for potentially a couple dozen "keeper" fish? No. Let's be serious here, people. They raise them in whiskey bottles in Thailand. As long as the water is clean and warm, the fish will be fine.


My solution to this issue is dividing heated, filtered ten gallon tanks into five sections. It's space efficient (and if you don't have room to keep two or three ten gallon tanks, you really don't have room to be seriously breeding), and makes for an absolutely fine permanent home for breeding stock. In addition, it's less work- one weekly water change as opposed to daily or every other day jar changes. 

Good luck with the fruitflies- I want to try those out sometime!


----------



## hrutan

Despite the fact it doesn't seem like it would be, I'm actually thinking the jars will be easier for me, although I may change my mind later. It's an access issue. 

I do water changes almost daily anyway, and jars don't take long. They have the benefit that I can do the majority of the work down near the floor, and won't have to lift or move more than a few pounds at a time, and don't have to torque to try to reach anything. My back is very bad, and I'm short, and over the years I've learned that a little front-loaded work saves me a toll in pain. It's also an interesting (and perhaps rather silly) way to get in the gym sessions that I don't have time for.

This evaluation may change later. I do have tiny hands, and carrying the jars themselves might be more difficult than anticipated. If so, I'll switch to 10 gallons; space isn't an issue, it's that all the space I have now is vertical. I'm also probably going to replace my pet fish with breeder fish in their tanks, as my pets slowly age out. They got all the "prime" easy to reach spaces, because those are also the spots that are easiest to see. And what's the point of having a pet you can't admire every day?


----------



## Pandanke

Ah, are you working with a python or just buckets and gravel vacs for draining? I recently switched to a python, also due to pain/access issues, and it's probably the most amazing switch ever. 

I wont use it on my tanks under 3g (I just use a big supermarket fresh cut fruit style plastic cup), but for my 5, 7's, 10, and 20's it is a lifesaver. 

If I did not have it, I would probably go for the cup method too, but consider you're trying to age your water, I can see that it may not work for you.


----------



## hrutan

Buckets and gravel vacs in the bedroom and den, and a python for the big 75 in the living room. I don't think I could do the big tank without it - the python really is a miracle. But the plumbing in the small bathrooms isn't up to a water exchange system, unfortunately, and the hose isn't long enough to reach all the way from one end of the house to the other.

For the bedroom, I have a gravel vac and a little 2.5 gallon bucket, and I cart the water outside and water the lawn with it. The bucket is light enough for me to carry as long as I don't fill it up all the way, although if it's been a bad day, I pay the price for it later. Even with that, I feel too tremendously guilty about the wasted water to pour it down the bathroom drain.

I'm going to have to get one of those big buckets with a handle and wheels - you know, the kind that janitorial staff uses? when I have to do jars. That'll be a more efficient way to cart waste water around.


----------



## hrutan

Primus must be quite proud of this. I'm also pleased. That circle of tubing did exactly what I was hoping it would:


----------



## LadyNightraven

Wow, that's one heck of a bubble nest!

I just love your fish, hrutan. They're all so beautiful.


----------



## Tress

oh, I might have to do that for my guys if that's the kind of result I could get  
I adore bubblenests <3


----------



## hrutan

Another panda passed away, taking me down to 4 - half my original number. Last night I thought I'd had a nitrite spike (the tube was _really purple_), but it was near midnight and I was too tired and clumsy to do a water change. So I put in some Prime, went to bed, and resolved to do it first thing in the morning. 

Before I water changed, I did a panda check and removed the dead one, and tested the water. 0 nitrites. The test fluid had dripped fast last night, so maybe I made a mistake? A second test (after water change) is also a perfect sky blue.

Note to self: If the water test looks odd, re-test. The nitrites have been steadily decreasing for days. The bioload of 6 pandas in 75 gallons isn't going to be enough to cause that kind of quality change that quickly.

I _think _the pandas that are dying are smaller than the rest. I'm wondering if they've all been eating. People say these little guys are finicky - no kidding! I expected to lose a couple, but not _half_...


----------



## hrutan

Went to Petco and bought a 20 long. I'm done with tanks. Also picked up a 6 shelf shelving unit that can hold several thousand pounds, so I'm done with that, too. I have several sponge filters seasoning in the spare 10 gallon along with a cycled filter.

Tonight I need to set everything up.

Elizabeth looks like she's getting big with eggs, which is exciting, and Primus is building epic bubble nests.

Microworms and walter worms are starting to climb up the sides of their cultures. The fruit fly culture has a bunch of maggots (ew). I can't tell how the vinegar eels and infusoria are going. I'll have to pour a bit of the vinegar into a clear container...and just trust, for the infusoria.


----------



## Jonthefish

hrutan said:


> Went to Petco and bought a 20 long. I'm done with tanks. Also picked up a 6 shelf shelving unit that can hold several thousand pounds, so I'm done with that, too. I have several sponge filters seasoning in the spare 10 gallon along with a cycled filter.
> 
> Tonight I need to set everything up.
> 
> Elizabeth looks like she's getting big with eggs, which is exciting, and Primus is building epic bubble nests.
> 
> Microworms and walter worms are starting to climb up the sides of their cultures. The fruit fly culture has a bunch of maggots (ew). I can't tell how the vinegar eels and infusoria are going. I'll have to pour a bit of the vinegar into a clear container...and just trust, for the infusoria.


Congrats on all that ! Can't wait to see ! :-D


----------



## hrutan

Found a panda cory skeleton. Down to 3. Buy more, or try another cory? This is very frustrating.

Edit: No! It was a plant root! How weird, I saw vertebrae and everything...until I pulled it out. OMG. lol...and found #4 sneaking around the Amazon Swords.


----------



## Nimble

He faked his death just to play a practical joke on you... how rude, and clever.


----------



## Pandanke

I'd probably purchase more regardless. I found mine got significantly happier the more I added. Probably maybe see if you can find a different supplier, though?


----------



## hrutan

I will. I may have to wait a while to get them from my regular lps, though.

Been busy. Oooh, am I going to _pay _for this tomorrow.


----------



## Pandanke

Ooh jealous! Husband is fairly against me doing a rack system.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Oh! I love those storage systems (the brand) I have a small one for my fish at home
They're so much better than the bulky plastic kind
(Just make sure you out it together as tight as possible)


----------



## hrutan

Pandanke - my husband actually _likes _it!

Sayla - It's together so tight I don't think I'll actually be able to take it apart again.

My husband bought a small one of these for our roommate, to contain her ever-growing board game collection. It's quite attractive, especially compared to many of the other shelving units on the market. The large one can hold several thousand pounds, several hundred per shelf, so I felt comfortable using it for aquariums. Since it's all metal, I don't have to worry about accidentally soaking particle board and having the shelves give way, either.

Bottom shelf: 20 gallon tall for aging water, 20 gallon long for growout.
2nd shelf: 10 gallon for breeding/growout, 10 gallon for growout.
Middle shelf: Storage
4th shelf: Jars. I'll line it with cork board and then use heat tape to keep them warm.
5th shelf: Additional jar space. I may swap this and the middle shelf, but I need shorter bins for that.
Top shelf: Stuffed animals. Lined it with cardboard to prevent fuzz from falling into the tanks.


----------



## Hopeseeker

Might I ask: How much was the shelving system and where was it purchased? I'm trying to find something similar.


----------



## hrutan

It cost me $100 at Home Depot.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

They have a 2 shelf system just like it at Home Depot for $40 also


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*layout*



hrutan said:


> I will. I may have to wait a while to get them from my regular lps, though.
> 
> Been busy. Oooh, am I going to _pay _for this tomorrow.


like the new layout, cant wait to see the finished display


----------



## hrutan

I'll have it finished tonight or tomorrow. If my back gives out, tomorrow. Otherwise, today. It doesn't hurt as much as I expected right now, but it's still a little iffy...but getting the water into the aging tank is top priority if I want to put my pair together this week.

Also, my husband just got home from a trip, and there went my time. :lol: Still, he's been very kind about not complaining about how much of my attention this is taking up. :lol:


----------



## Veloran

Hopeseeker said:


> Might I ask: How much was the shelving system and where was it purchased? I'm trying to find something similar.


You could also check Costco if you have one nearby, they have the 5 shelf ones and you can get it in powder coated black if you like.

Hrutan:
You could also get some plyboard and cut it to line the shelves, it's what I did. I can't remember the exact measurements from when I did mine.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I used a cut up yoga matt


----------



## caboyett

hrutan said:


> I'll have it finished tonight or tomorrow. If my back gives out, tomorrow. Otherwise, today. It doesn't hurt as much as I expected right now, but it's still a little iffy...but getting the water into the aging tank is top priority if I want to put my pair together this week.
> 
> Also, my husband just got home from a trip, and there went my time. :lol: Still, he's been very kind about not complaining about how much of my attention this is taking up. :lol:


Wow.... The day of my test I found this thread, and instead of last minute cramming, I read this entire thread in one sitting! Very informative, as I just purchased a 55 gallon tank. I currently have two 20 gallons, and am looking to turn my 55 gallon into a community tank. Any advice on using sand as substrate? I currently have tiny gravel, but from what I understand, using sand will allow for better plant growth right?


----------



## hrutan

Husband casts "Let's play a board game."
It's super effective!
Hrutan takes 2 hours damage.
Hrutan faints!

I like sand. Most of my small tanks have sand instead of dirt, and at the moment I find it preferable. You do need to use root tabs and liquid fertilizers, since there is no nutrition in the sand, but on the plus side, you don't need to deal with methane bubbles. Sand gives a good place for rooting plants to establish themselves, and it's pretty. The plants in my sand tank are growing like crazy. Not as fast as in the big 75, which is soil-based, but the growth is still nice and steady.

If you use sand, I strongly recommend buying play sand from a hardware store and rinsing the crap out of it, unless you want something of a specific color. Much, much cheaper that way.

BTW, the notion that MTS aerate soil? Mine cruise around on the surface and occasionally bury themselves a quarter inch deep. Not enough to make a difference _at all._ I'm stuck poking the dirt with a stick every water change, and even so, the tank still burps at random moments. I'll be glad when that settles down in a couple months. I want to stick some ghost shrimp in there, but I've heard that outgassing can be a problem for them.

Still trying to learn my camera. Here's an updated photo of the 75 gallon:


Toothless the wonder pleco, who ate an entire piece of cucumber in a day. Here he is nibbling on the rind:


And bonus: Primus's ever-increasing bubble nest. He must want many babies.


----------



## Nimble

How goes the conditioning for your future lovebirds? How's the pretty red lady settling in?


----------



## BlueInkFish

Primus... He's so... Beautiful!!! Gimmmeee!! :3


----------



## FishyFishy89

I just read through this all and it was quite entertaining and a joy to read.
A needed a bit more joy today :3


----------



## hrutan

My two lovebirds look chubby and happy. They're physically ready, so it just depends on their mental readiness. When I put them together depends on how long it takes for the ammonia to come out of my tap water. I have the 20 tall filled with conditioned water and sponge filters, waiting for it to be ammonia and nitrite free.


----------



## Nimble

I'm really looking forward to this spawn. I just hope I have enough money to buy one of the F1 or F2 depending on what good ones you get.


----------



## hrutan

I won't charge very much. The big expense will be shipping, and I'll combine shipping if you want a pair or more. They should all be melano carriers, and the whole point of this is to get more beautiful VT on the market, so I'm hoping people will want pairs to breed. But, a lot hinges on how many I get in the spawn...I plan on keeping 2 or 3 pairs, so that I have lines of closely related cousins to breed later.

I have no idea what's going to happen with this combination in F1. There's not that much information about breeding red to melano. If you want blacks, that probably won't show up until F2.


----------



## Nimble

Well, with F2, you'll see plenty of Veiltails, along with probably 25% being Halfmoons like Primus is. I really like Reds, so if there's a decent Red Halfmoon with white butterfly and low-to-no iridescence, I'll probably snag one.

Though, ideally I'd love a clean-colored Cambodian. They're just getting hard to find because they're not really popular right now.


----------



## hrutan

I'm deliberately breeding down to VT, so reduced number of rays is going to be part of my selection criteria. That's likely to make HM disappear rapidly from this line. Primus was selected for color, not spread, since there was no other way for me to introduce melano into the line. I'd actually have preferred a DeT, but finding anything other than HM or CT for long fins on aquabid is not so easy. Because VT are "common" right? So common, it's difficult to find any of quality to buy. **hmph** Seems to me like that's the exact opposite of common.

From what I've seen, I theoretically should get yellows, oranges, reds in F1...but it depends on how that interacts with the black, and what genes Primus and Elizabeth are hiding. It's possible I'll get those colors with black layer intact, or even black with red fins, or something else that I haven't thought of, yet. Watching them color up and playing the color guessing game is going to be exciting! :-D

Earnestly hoping for butterflies, but I have gotten conflicting answers on just how many of those I can expect, if any at all. I'm thinking that the butterfly color pattern comes about in more than one way - some people insist it's tied to marble geno, others say they've never gotten marble out of a butterfly line. Some people say they get a huge percentage of butterflies in a spawn, others say it takes a couple generations.


----------



## Nimble

http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABcolorgenetics.htm

Actually, here. Read this, it'll be pretty helpful on understanding some things.
Butterfly Pattern appears through a dominant, mutated gene, but the effects of the gene can vary depending on what else is in the fish.


----------



## hrutan

I've read through all of that site, and it's awesome. However, what people actually experience in their spawns varies wildly. Some of that can be accounted for through laws of averages, but others are quite probably caused by an incomplete _public _understanding of the genetics involved. I've found that breeders can be quite closemouthed about how they developed specific color patterns...or don't have the time or inclination to disseminate the information to people outside their clique, whether they feel secretive about it or not.

BettaTerritory is a pretty awesome resource, but it's certainly not complete.

By the way, as a totally random side note - ask a breeder about their spawn, and they'll start showing you pictures, whether that's related to your question, or not. LOL.

Me: "Hey, I'm looking for a quality VT female, do you have one?"
**breeder shows me a lovely HM male** "Father of my last spawn."
Me: "I'll take that as a no."

Me: "I'm curious about what happens when you breed melano to copper instead of steel."
"Depends on the spawn." **breeder shows me a cambodian**
Me: "Oh, was that something you got from trying it?"
**breeder shows me a yellow* *"I got this guy from two reds."
Me: "...what does that have to do with anything?"
**breeder shows me a purple**


----------



## BlueInkFish

XD!!! Hilarious!!!!!

I'm laughing way to hard!!!! ...so...do all of is breeders sound like that XD!!!


----------



## hrutan

Seems like about half of them, lol. If they want to talk, they also want to show off. Can't blame them, really.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yes, having a bunch of fish and not even showing them to anyone would bother me, lol. Showing fish to new people to the hobby is a must for me XD!


----------



## hrutan

Really obnoxious if you're a new person looking for information, though.


----------



## BlueInkFish

who wouldn't show their fish if your welcoming a new fellow hobbyist! XD, not like coming to my house but telling about my fish :3 I just like talking fishy around my friends and family!


----------



## Tress

Wow lots of posts while I was away today xD
I definitely agree that it's obnoxious when you ask for info and you just get mislead or have random, unrelated info thrown at you >.<


----------



## BlueInkFish

:3 Very true lol! >__< sorry, i forgot to mention in my case... Not yours XD I need to stop changing the subject!


----------



## Veloran

hrutan said:


> I've read through all of that site, and it's awesome. However, what people actually experience in their spawns varies wildly. Some of that can be accounted for through laws of averages, but others are quite probably caused by an incomplete _public _understanding of the genetics involved. I've found that breeders can be quite closemouthed about how they developed specific color patterns...or don't have the time or inclination to disseminate the information to people outside their clique, whether they feel secretive about it or not.
> 
> BettaTerritory is a pretty awesome resource, but it's certainly not complete.
> 
> By the way, as a totally random side note - ask a breeder about their spawn, and they'll start showing you pictures, whether that's related to your question, or not. LOL.
> 
> Me: "Hey, I'm looking for a quality VT female, do you have one?"
> **breeder shows me a lovely HM male** "Father of my last spawn."
> Me: "I'll take that as a no."
> 
> Me: "I'm curious about what happens when you breed melano to copper instead of steel."
> "Depends on the spawn." **breeder shows me a cambodian**
> Me: "Oh, was that something you got from trying it?"
> **breeder shows me a yellow* *"I got this guy from two reds."
> Me: "...what does that have to do with anything?"
> **breeder shows me a purple**


Did he have a pet store, I'd be terrified to go into that store.
You go in looking for a beautiful betta and come out with 2 angel fish, a cardinal and an alligator :shock:.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yes, very true. Going in with a fish in mind is something to plan... coming out with a different, very unexpected.


----------



## hrutan

Veloran said:


> Did he have a pet store, I'd be terrified to go into that store.
> You go in looking for a beautiful betta and come out with 2 angel fish, a cardinal and an alligator :shock:.


:lol:


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

hows the stand going for those tanks??


----------



## hrutan

Well, everything was ready as of last night, and my roommate had a bad day, so we thought we'd get the breeding tank ready and show them to each other. Filled it up about 5-6 inches with good, aged water, put an IAL and some floaters in, and let the male go. Then we caught the female in a jar and set her down inside.

She immediately flared, bowed, and danced, doing the betta equivalent of "Come _here _sailor boy," and he flared up and strutted his stuff. No charging, just a big flare and a circle and a _strut_ and a circle and a wiggle and a circle, and blowing bubbles everywhere.

It was beautiful to watch. Since they were so _obviously _glad to see each other, we went ahead and let Elizabeth loose. Follow the leader and chase ensued. Nothing particularly violent. A little nipping.



No eggs as of this morning, but Primus has built two bubble nests over night, and he seems to be trying to lure her to the one in the back. He's playing chase, then letting her chase him, and then going back to his nest. She hasn't taken the bait so far.



I see a little fin damage, but nothing too serious. If anything, it looks like the tear in Elizabeth's tail might be from flaring too much, rather than a bite.


----------



## hrutan

Here's the whole setup. The tanks aren't all filled yet, but I'm not concerned. The breeder tank is the only thing I need right now. Getting all of my plushies and fish supplies out of the way is a blessing:


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

Yay hope things go well for ya! They will make very pretty babies I think too.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

fantastic....
keep up the good work.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I'm so excited


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yay! I'm hoping for the best to come out of this spawn!!

 I want to buy a pair and breed a new spawn now... Stahp temping me hrutan!!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

litelboyblu said:


> Yay! I'm hoping for the best to come out of this spawn!!
> 
> I want to buy a pair and breed a new spawn now... Stahp temping me hrutan!!


Oyoyoyoyoy I need a butterfly before you spawn again


----------



## hrutan

Oh, as a note, I am not going to start a spawn log until I have free swimmers and the parents are out. It's just embarrassing to see "HEY GUYS! LOOK! MY SPAWN! OOPS, DAD ATE THE EGGS," since that happens all the time, hehe.


----------



## Tress

Haha good plan. Plus pictures of itty bitty fry are more interesting than eggs


----------



## BlueInkFish

Agreed!!

Lol, okay sayla :3 just promise me you will allow me to buy a fishy from hrutan one the spawn has grown XD!!!!


----------



## hrutan

Went to check in on them during my lunch break. He's trying super hard to lure her under his absolutely _mammoth _bubble nest. When she follows, they poke at each other for a bit, and then Primus freaks out and chases her away. It's hilarious. My roommate's comment? "Well, of course he's freaking out. He's a virgin on his wedding night."


----------



## hrutan

Silhouette jumped out of her tank, and I didn't find her until she was long gone. I'm disappointed with myself for forgetting to put the tank lid back on, but I also don't know if she jumped out before or after I put on the lid. There's a gap in the back for cords and equipment...

SIP, beautiful girl. The biggest leap of your life was also your last. :-(


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

litelboyblu said:


> Agreed!!
> 
> Lol, okay sayla :3 just promise me you will allow me to buy a fishy from hrutan one the spawn has grown XD!!!!


No prob, and Hrutan I might want an F1 if you can get a red/black marble or red/black marble butterfly

Edit:just saw about silhouette, sorry Hrutan


----------



## hrutan

All I can do is learn from it - a lid is only useful if it's on the tank. I will be more careful from now on. She cleared a lot of distance. More than I thought was likely. But, she's also the one that jumped into the sink and did her level best to go down the garbage disposal, so I should have been more aware of her athleticism.

As far as sales from this spawn - let's see what happens! They haven't even embraced yet lol.


----------



## Tress

Noooooo ;-; not Silhouette!! Poor baby... 
It's not your fault, it happens to the best of us.


----------



## hrutan

Maybe in a couple of generations, I'll have more like her.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I'm so sorry 

We are all here to support you!


----------



## hrutan

Primus's bubble nest has grown since my lunch break. It was covering about 1/6th of the 10 gallon spawn tank at 2PM. Now, at 6, it's covering closer to 1/4th. You overachiever, you.


----------



## Veloran

hrutan said:


> Went to check in on them during my lunch break. He's trying super hard to lure her under his absolutely _mammoth _bubble nest. When she follows, they poke at each other for a bit, and then Primus freaks out and chases her away. It's hilarious. My roommate's comment? "Well, of course he's freaking out. He's a virgin on his wedding night."


Maybe put on a little Barry White for them ...

Sorry about Silhouette


----------



## hrutan

Alcohol is a truth serum. Apparently I am very bothered by Silhouette's death but it doesn't come out when I'm sober. **sighs**

I wish I had done a better job. But what's done is done.


----------



## Nimble

We've all lost fish by making a simple, preventable mistake that we couldn't have forseen.

I lost an Albino Peppered Cory when I was 14 by leaving my fish-net resting atop the tank, and it jumped, landed in the net, and died via dehydration and suffocation in the air. Later that year, I lost a female Betta when she jumped out of the sorority tank and got picked up by the cat. I can go on.

It's a sad experience, but there's nothing you can do about it now. You have to give yourself the proper chance to mourn, and then carry on. It seems like you've not really given yourself the chance to mourn. Take a moment and try to figure out the way you think is best to honor her memory and okay yourself with her death... that's the best thing you can do, hun.


----------



## LadyNightraven

I'm so sorry about Silhouette's passing. SIP, beautiful fishy.


----------



## TripleChrome

I just got on here and heard about Silhouette. I am so sorry for your loss of her. SIP Silhouette. You will be forever missed.


----------



## hrutan

On a more cheerful note:


----------



## Veloran

Told ya ... Barry White.


----------



## hrutan

With these guys' mating habits, Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson would be more appropriate.

I went home to check on them during lunch - that wrapping photo was taken at around 8:30 AM and I took my lunch at 2 PM, figured it'd be a good idea to see if Elizabeth needed to be taken out.

She was squashed against the farthest possible corner from Primus's nest, and so still that I had to check and see if her gills were moving. I took her out right away, even though she looked like she still had some eggs. She released them as soon as I put her in her home, and then ate them. Good for her; looks like she needs a bit of extra nutrition while she recovers.

She has a bunch of damaged scales, and a split tail. No really nasty wounds that I could see, but still pretty beat up. I'll put a little AQ salt and IAL in her tank when I get home. Didn't have the time to do it on my break.

Primus has his fins full. There were a bunch of eggs on the aquarium floor -- I guess in the ball park of 50? Looks like they got ahead of themselves and she was releasing eggs faster than Primus could stash them in the bubbles. He was scooping them up and spitting them into his nest only a little bit faster than they were falling out. Impossible to say how many he already has stashed up there, but I have high hopes.


----------



## Nimble

Good luck, hun. Here's to many happy, healthy babies~


----------



## hrutan

Do you ever feel stunned about how quickly life can change?


----------



## Nimble

Sometimes. Though, I wish it would change for the better for me.
Ya know.


----------



## hrutan

It will. The funny thing about time is no matter what's going on, time doesn't care. It keeps going. So bad things, they pass in time. Good things also pass, but they wouldn't give the same amount of joy without something to bring out the contrast.

You've gotta grab hold of the good things, hug them tight and treasure them, and handle the tough things quickly so they don't get worse. Then let them go when it's time. Find new things to bring you excitement. Solve new problems as they come up.

Life is filled with crazy experiences. Ten years ago, I couldn't imagine myself in the good place I am in now. In another ten years, who knows where we'll be?


----------



## Tress

So true


----------



## Nimble

Mhm~ Good night tonight, I think. I made decent money, and people paid for my drinks all night. An alright night at the bar, in my opinion. But yeah... Cute fishies, things will get better, etc...

Cute fishy babies. Much cute, such veiltail.


----------



## Schmoo

Nimble said:


> Cute fishy babies. Much cute, such veiltail.


wow


----------



## hrutan

Nimble said:


> Mhm~ Good night tonight, I think. I made decent money, and people paid for my drinks all night. An alright night at the bar, in my opinion. But yeah... Cute fishies, things will get better, etc...
> 
> Cute fishy babies. Much cute, such veiltail.





Schmoo said:


> wow


So egg. Much busy. Too amaze!


----------



## hrutan

Morning update:

Everyone was happy to get daphnia this morning, with a little bloodworms mixed in. I found that half of them won't eat daphnia alone, so I started mixing the two foods. Now even the ones that would spit daphnia out will eat it, as long as there's also a few bloodworms in there. Yay for training.

Primus is a busy, busy bee. There's still probably 70-150 (they are hard to count) eggs at the bottom. He's scooping them up and shoving them at the water surface as fast as he can, but it's a losing battle. Poor guy.

No one answered me within a couple hours when I asked what I should do about the excess eggs, yesterday. So I used a turkey baster and sucked up a hundred or so, very carefully. Maybe a third of what was at the bottom. Primus didn't give a hoot; he was too busy with the ones he had, and me mucking around in his normal tank has never bothered him. I stuck the eggs at the bottom of one of my QT tanks, covered them with a bit of water, and floated the QT tank in my water aging tank. Covered the whole thing with saran wrap - we'll see if any hatch out. It's an interesting experiment.

I did that a bit out of worry, but a bit more because there was blatantly excess, and I'd like to practice artificial hatching before it's strictly necessary, so I know what works in the case of a notorious egg eater. That's sure to happen sooner or later.

Elizabeth is feeling spunky. I didn't bring her food quick enough to suit and she jumped a good 2 inches up and bit the feeding tube. I lowered her water level...

Water changes in the small tanks today!


----------



## Nimble

Let us know the results of your artificial hatching method. I'd like to see if it works out in the long run, so that I can know if I should do it too, if the need arises.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

^+1 and if it does work maybe you can write an instruction manual?


----------



## hrutan

Sure. If it works, I will lay out EXACTLY how I did it. There are lots of guides on the internet, but you know - things are different for everyone.


----------



## hrutan

Evening update:

There's still lots of eggs at the bottom. Believe it or not, this isn't as many as it was:


I realized a lot of them are clustered around the duckweed instead of bubbles:


Oh god, they're everywhere. I am so borked if all of these hatch:


Primus is trying. He's really, really trying.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Wow... Dude that's more than 500 eggs... Hot [email protected] they were having some fun in bed O.O


----------



## hrutan

That's not even counting the 100+ that I siphoned out to try to artificially hatch. mg:


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

hrutan said:


> That's not even counting the 100+ that I siphoned out to try to artificially hatch. mg:


So... I guess you'll be having a 50 for the price of one sale XD


----------



## hrutan

Let's find out how miss-timed my daddy removal will be before we count our fry, hehe.


----------



## hrutan

I saw an egg dancing in the artificial hatching chamber. I think I saw a dot with a tail, too.

...really not sure.


----------



## hrutan

The eggs are hatching.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Omg yay


----------



## hrutan

You know, there are days that I **really** hate having to go to work.


----------



## Nimble

When you get home, post pictures of the babies in the hatchery~


----------



## hrutan

OK! Let's see if my camera is up to the job, haha. I couldn't afford a really good one.


----------



## hrutan

Primus is looking fat, but the fry in the artificial hatching chamber are tail down, and there's a lot of eggs that haven't hatched. He is still tending. Taking a calculated risk and not removing him until tomorrow. Two days seems early, and I suspect a lot of eggs weren't fertilized and he ate them.

Also removing the eggs in the hatchery tomorrow morning. Judging by the number of live fry, the rest may not have been fertilized and I don't want them to pollute the water.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Very exciting!! I hope for the best for you and the fry!!!


----------



## BlueLacee

Good luck


----------



## hrutan

There are at least 3 fry that somehow managed to get into the 20g water aging tank. I see a couple of eggs down there, too. WTF? I must have accidentally dropped them when I was creating a hatchery...


----------



## hrutan

Oh, and a couple of the eggs are....dancing. So hatching isn't done yet!


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yay!! Very very exciting!!  I can't wait till their older.. So I can snatch some!


----------



## hrutan

Took an eyedropper and removed the eggs that didn't hatch from the artificial hatchery this morning. That was quite a job. There are lots and lots of fry in there, and egg shells along with unhatched eggs.

Primus is still tending. Every now and then a fry does a crazy swim down / swim up maneuver. It looks almost like fleas in an upside-down carpet, lol. They are definitely not free-swimming yet.

Now I'm prepping the spare 10 gallon. I'll get it half full of aged water and heated, and then float the hatchery in there. When the fry are free-swimming, poppa gets removed from the nursery, the hatchery gets gently poured in the spare 10g, and I'll start a spawn log.

It will be interesting to see how the fry turn out with the two different treatments.


----------



## BlueLacee

Gaaa.... I cannot wait... P ctures


----------



## hrutan

Hahaha, I'm sorry. I have taken pics as I've gone along, but everything's still so hard to see. I am going to line the spare 10g with white paper on the bottom, back, and one side so we can all see better, and I will post plenty.


----------



## hrutan

Went to the fish shop that's my usual place for tank lids and things. No luck on a lid for the secondary fry tank, but I did find something else:

Panda Cories!

This shop quarantines for 1-3 weeks before displaying their livestock for sale, I checked. So I bought 4 to bring my little panda flurry up to 8 again. Hopefully they will be happy with the additional company.


----------



## hrutan

I couldn't see the fry, and poppa was looking chubby, so I took him out last night, right before bed. Evening of the third day, seemed safe enough. Moved the hatchery to its own 10 gallon (transferring the fry was terrifying), and made sure everyone is at temperature and safe.

Of course, I look this morning and a bunch of the fry are tail-down and poppa isn't as chubby as I thought he was. Intense black is really hard to see. Argh. Did I do it too soon? Will it matter? :-?

My husband says, "Good result, bad result, it doesn't matter as long as you learn from it. If you really want to do this, you're going to make mistakes, and sometimes lose everything in the tanks, and you have to be prepared for that. Primus and Elizabeth are healthy and you can spawn them again."

Wise words, but that doesn't help my nervousness any. No one likes to screw up.

Anyway, I know the fry are alive. Some are at the top, some are at the bottom. They are still zipping around occasionally, although they do seem to rest a lot. And ooooh boy are there a lot of them. I lined the hatchery tank with white paper so pics would show up. Here's about half the hatchery:


----------



## hrutan

I'm trying to zoom this in, but I'm a little incompetent at manipulating pictures:


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow!! Very tiny and cute!!!


----------



## SeaHorse

Eye balls, tummies and tails!! Awwww. Good job!!
I love your hubby's wisdom. Very wise words for fish keeping. He is spot on!! And just when you think you have it all figured out... that will be the tank you loose in full and it floors you. What the heck did I do wrong? 

Don't know if it's been said but daily water changes will make them grow quickly!! The sooner they grow, the faster you can sell them. And do it all again!
Congratulations Momma!


----------



## hrutan

Yay, thank you!!

Yes I am planning daily water changes, starting Wednesday. I'd like them to have nearly a full week and make sure everyone's swimming.


----------



## Tress

aaaahhh look at the little itty bitty babies ;3; You must be a proud mama


----------



## hrutan

I started a spawn log here: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=467849

Please feel free to stalk it. I'm not only including a log of the babies, but also instructions and procedures for everything that I'm doing, from artificial hatching to cultures.

--

Mystique is such a funny little girl. She hides under a piece of driftwood. I think that's where she sleeps. At feeding time, if she's not out I tap the tank, and she'll wake up and swim out for breakfast. But most of the time when she's being adorable, she stops when the camera comes out.

She gets along with all the other fish. It's nice to have a sweet girl that's safe in the community tank.

The pandas are doing well. They went nuts when the new ones were added, and started shoaling together and playing right away! It was so adorable! They made a panda pyramid! :redyay:


----------



## BettaLover1313

I can't wait to read about your fry! Congrats!


----------



## caboyett

Congrats Hrutan! May I ask one quick question? What type of filtration do you use on your 75 gallon? Have you ever had any experience with the Fluval Fx6? Currently setting up a 55 gallon cichlid tank :twisted:


----------



## hrutan

I use a pair of large sponge filters. They are inexpensive compared to most other types, and work very, very well. This type pictured pipes water and bubbles over the surface of the water for additional aeration. I have two of these, one on either side of the tank.


----------



## hrutan

Goliath cracks me up. He's the most inefficient bug hunter ever. He's a big, lazy lug that does things dramatically -- when he does them at all. So when he breathes he takes this great huge gulp of air, when he tries to catch a fruit fly, he smashes into the surface of the water with his whole body... LOL.

A fair chunk of the time, he's too lazy to even bother swimming. So he just wedges himself in his jungle and sits there.

Hi, Goliath.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

This morning I went to feed my oldest boy Licorice and he was laying on his anubias plant. I tapped on his bowl and he was like meh I'm sleepinggggggg. So I dropped the flakes like right infront of him and all he did was reach up and eat it from his leaf. Sometimes in the middle of the day, I'll hear the crystals in his bowl jingling around and spot him zooming around the bowl. It's like his daily workout for the day and after about a minute he stops and goes back to sleep on his leaf. Goliath and Licorice would prolly be great friends (in diff tanks of course) and just love being lazy watching eachother.


----------



## hrutan

Haha. I don't think I've ever seen Goliath zoom. Sometimes he's too much of a bum to even right himself, and he ends up hanging upside down until he realizes something's not right. I mean, _really_.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

I've seen Lic on his side on the leaves before and it would scare me. I would think that he's dead until I tap the bowl and he wakes up like huh?!? oh right! I'm fine!


----------



## hrutan

Before the plants grew in, Goliath made a habit of sleeping on the sand, leaning against the sponge filter. Scared the crap out of me the first couple of times, because I thought he was dead.

Spawn log updated with shaky video of moving dots.

Oh god. There are so many.


----------



## DaytonBetta

Congratulations on your babies! Your hard work and research are paying off!


----------



## hrutan

The babies will have their first water change tonight. Very excited about that.

One of the pandas gave my husband a big scare yesterday. He came home and thought it was dead because it was laying on its back, so he called me up and asked what to do. When he went to scoop it up with a net, it woke up and swam away.

Panda Pranksters.

We had friends over last night, and I had to show anyone who would tolerate it the babies. One of them spent a good 10 minutes mesmerized by Phoenix. His purple irids make him look stunning under light. Orange/purple is such an unusual color combination. Phoenix was perfectly happy to strut his stuff and fluff his fins for a guest. What a showboat!

Best family guess for # of babies is about 300. I need more growout tanks.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I'm telling you 50for1 sale. 
And I agree that pheonix is stunning, I wish I could see the little bugger now (irl) btw how is his mossball rolling habit?


----------



## hrutan

Once he got other things to play with, he started to leave the moss ball alone. Judging by the decreased number of snails in his tank, I've figured out his new amusement: Snail soccer.

Loser gets eaten.


----------



## hrutan

And snails never win, because they only have one "foot." Hahaha.


----------



## hrutan

Apparently I have a little problem. I see a post begging for a local adoption and I think, "I don't need this. Do I even have room for this? I don't even know what it looks like. Well...crap. I can make it work. Fine." Then I think about it and think about it, and realize that I really like the idea, and I've found a way to make it work, and I get excited before I even know if it'll go through or not.

That happened with poor Hercules (SIP), and now here I am hoping this other person will let me take a betta of unknown sex, unknown color, unknown type, who comes with everything it needs.

Well, Mr. Kitty needs surgery. His fins are not healing. Repeated courses of antibiotics and frequent water changes haven't done a whole lot for his fin melt. As unhappy as the prospect makes me, I am going to need to cut his fins.

But, if I trim his fins, I want him at home in a 1 gallon QT with lots of TLC so that his fins can heal. When I had him at home before, the only time he acted really happy was in the 1 gallon I loaded him in for transport back to the library! He stress striped when he was put back in his beautiful roomy 5 gallon at work. Silly fish. So, he should be just fine, but that leaves me without a library fish.

Enter Potato Chip.

Potato Chip needs a home. I need a library fish. I also want to replace the 5 gallon at the library with a nicer one from home - one with straight sides so there is less reflection. My roommate has such tanks. And desperately wants a Fluval Spec V, but can't afford one. Bet she'd be willing to trade...

Hopefully the person in need gets back to me soon.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

For the surgery can I recommend a couple things? #1 drug him up. I don't care if you use a tranquilizer and anesthetic or anesthetic and IAL extract, use something. #2 get new scissors. If you can't find medical shears get hair cutting scissors. The sharper the less painful it'll be. #3 try to make it one cut and done. Have the scissors ready, open, wait till he is still, slice, and be done with it. He probably won't sit still for long unless you actually get him put under. And #4 get him into clean water ASAP. Once the cut happens get him into fresh water and discard the amputated parts. If he needs a second cut wait a bit. 

I haven't done fish surgery with scissors yet but these things seem to be the most recommended on how to sites. Also this seems like a good enough method http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/72822-how-do-you-trim-a-bettas-tail/ but Idk if I'd rather find a method that doesn't involve taking the fish out of water


----------



## hrutan

Advice is always welcome.

I'm going to do it out of the water because I don't feel safe doing it _in_ the water, where it's easier for him to move. He's supposed to be more likely to be still when he is laid on his side. I don't have great depth perception and don't want to risk missing and cutting too much. The link you provided is exactly how I am planning on doing it, on a wet paper towel, covered, and a lightning fast cut-cut-cut with a sterilized razor blade, and done and back into the water.

How do you propose I use anesthetic? And what kind? The _last _thing I want to do is kill him with kindness, and most breeders don't use anything.

I'm pretty sure they don't have much in the way of pain detection in their fins, at least judging by the way my boys have reacted to accidental damage. Phoenix bit his tail when he missed food, and he decided that the best course of action would be to tug the piece off and _eat _it. Hades, Vladamir, and Buttercup have all cut themselves on decorations, and just kept on dancing. No reaction at all.

My initial plan was to just keep him in IAL both before and after the surgery. The local LFS keeps a ready supply.


----------



## MattsBettas

Clove oil can be used for sedation, but Finquel would be better and easier as it's meant for anesthetic of fish. Both compounds WILL kill the fish if improperly dosed, but doing it without a aesthetic is also risky and potentially very painful (as far as I know there hasn't been a study done on the nervous system of a bettas tail, and we can't just base thoughts like that off a few observations).


----------



## hrutan

True that. I'll see if I can get it.


----------



## hrutan

Spawn log updated.

Mystique has been getting in to the cory food. I'm not sure how to stop her, and she keeps getting herself hugely fat and then floating awkwardly around on the top, trying to digest far too much food for her silly little body. She looks like a blorpy little seal.

The cats stepped on the power strip and turned the power off for the 75 gallon. I found all the corys huddled on top of one of the sponge filters. Very strange.


----------



## SeaHorse

Try feeding the Betta first in the evening and the Cory's at night at "lights out".


----------



## hrutan

All right, I'll try that.

Also, Finquel looks like it may be out of my reach. It's not available on Amazon or Dr. Foster's and Smith, and I don't have a relationship with any vet that treats fish. Tried looking for it under the brand name and the generic - no luck. I can get 100% pure, no additives clove oil, though.

Seems like a good idea to have that on hand, anyway. Sooner or later, someone is going to need the gentle good-bye.

I've only found a couple of dead fry, and those were within 2 days of hatching. It seems unlikely to me that all of them were in good health and perfectly formed. There's hundreds of them - the odds just aren't in favor. I'm wondering if any bodies were so small that they decayed before I even saw them.

Seems like it's just about time to post a photo update. I'll probably do that tomorrow - I have the whole weekend off and wanted to go to the betta show in Santa Clara, but I can't afford a hotel room. **sighs** If it was a 2 hour drive instead of a 4 hour drive, I'd just day trip.


----------



## hrutan

Interesting information of the day: Primus is not melano. He's a super black, and carrying marble. Well _that _sure throws my initial plan out the window. It's sure nice to have someone with experience to have looked him over, though. It would have been so frustrating to find that out the hard way.

This pairing _might_ get me black/red marbles! HOLY CRAP, THAT'S POSSIBLE? THAT WOULD BE PRETTIER THAN BLACK BUTTERFLY.

Patience is the hardest part.

Also, the guy that looked at Primus would really like me to spawn him to a good HM female, with a nice, bright and clear yellow. I wish I had more tanks.


----------



## Tress

*.* red/black marbles would be awesome


----------



## Schmoo

R/B marbles would be GORGEOUS! *Q* -makes grabby hands-


----------



## hrutan

Primus would like more babies. Now, plzkthx.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Omg <3 does he want the babies or to get laid?


----------



## hrutan

That depends on his personality, I suppose. He got more beat up than Elizabeth, haha.


----------



## Tress

Me thinks he likes being a daddy


----------



## SeaHorse

What a busy boy!! He sure knows what the job entails and is ready to go again!


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*nice fish*



hrutan said:


> Primus would like more babies. Now, plzkthx.


He's a beuat.
I hope he fines a mate 
ps got my filter and am running it for 2-3 weeks in cycled tank


----------



## hrutan

We are searching for new girls for him today.  Too small a gene pool for the line with just one pair. His babies are doing very well!


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

So remember I said I would look for a girl like Frankie (VT Marble)? Well today I was at a local Petsmart and found a blue/black marble girl but she's crowntail. Darn you wanting VT's only, then again, I get to keep this girl then.  I would show you pictures but you'd eat your words saying only VT then. 

So excited about your spawn! I have been watching your threads. I deff would love a red/black marble girl someday! :-D


----------



## hrutan

Hahaha, it's okay. I'm now seeking a nice bright yellow. Show me your girl!


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

You had to say yellow!!! MY GOD STOP IT!!! You must be reading my mind or something cuz besides the black/blue, I found a yellow crowntail girl too!


----------



## hrutan

Argh! Darn crowntails!


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

Edit:

I'll send ya a PM haha.


----------



## Crossroads

I get yellows constantly at my walmart, want me to send a picture if I find one? Even if you didn't want her I could always add her to my sorority. xD


----------



## hrutan

Sure! She needs to be VT, not crown or combtail. A lot of them are being labeled "regular" without, in fact, being regular. Bit of a problem, there.

I'm picking up Potato Chip tomorrow! From the picture, he looks like he'll be an interesting plum color. We'll see.


----------



## Crossroads

The girls at my Walmart are all definitely VTs. Theres an occasional PK male mixed in but most of the girls are definitely female VTs :> the only fancy tails they get are male CTs


----------



## hrutan

Oooh, that's the place I forgot to check. Walmart... 0_o


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Never thought I'd read "if you want a special type of betta go to walmart" lol
I'll keep an eye out


----------



## hrutan

Same here, hehe. There's a Wal-Mart nearby, I just don't shop there. Too many stories about how they treat their employees and suppliers, and too many mom and pop shops gone under by their aggressive competitiveness. I think they do more harm than good.


----------



## TripleChrome

Walmarts in my area sells gorgeous bettas. Maybe even prettier than Petco and PetSmart in my area. I know for sure Walmarts in my area take better care of bettas than Petco or PetSmart in my area. (But my new girl Shimmer, who looks almost like Mystique, was a different example for PetSmart. Only healthy one out of them all). I will keep an eye out when I go to Walmart. I have a good example of healthy Walmart bettas-my boy Zazu. All females are VT's with CT's very rarely. Butt, they mostly get males in any other tail type. I once saw a yellow butterfly VT female at Walmart just a few weeks ago. They might still had her, I'm not sure, as people buy more bettas at Walmart than PetSmart or Petco in my area.


----------



## Crossroads

I got my boy Angelos at Walmart, as well as Mako, Phobos and the late Natal. 
Angelos is a orange dalmatian butterfly VT, Mako a steel/red metallic bicolor CT with 4 rays, Phobos is a black/yellow bicolor CT with some blue irid and Natal was a chocolate dalmatian VT.


----------



## hrutan

Attention! Attention! I HAVE SECURED THE POTATO CHIP! He's a cute little guy! There will be pics later - right now I am getting belted in for the ride home.


----------



## hrutan

I kinda mighta just clicked buy it now on this: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettashm1413383218


----------



## BlueInkFish

good job!! Yah did good my son! XD!  she's really stunning! I have purchased

:/ I'm in a bidding war atm for a big driftwood piece with multiple ferns >__<


----------



## hrutan

Sorry for the slow update...

Potato Chip is doing well. He seems to be a bit confused by food (he keeps bonking it on his forehead when he goes for a bite) but his color is good and he's swimming with nice, spread fins. And he did eventually manage to eat his dinner and his breakfast. :lol:

Here's a pic of him in his temporary 1g. He goes to work tomorrow.


----------



## caboyett

NICE! I was in Petco Saturday, for dog food... Decided to stop by the fish section, bad idea. Left with a male and female beta for my community tanks! How are all the babies doing?


----------



## hrutan

Sadly, I'm having a minor fry die-off and I'm spending the morning hunting down and removing itty-bitty corpses. Looks like somewhere between 5-10%. Most of the dead ones have small bellies, which suggests to me that they never started eating and ran out of yolk sac. I _know _they've had enough food. But it could be a water quality issue, as well. I'm working diligently on getting the ammonia under control; my intention was to put the sponge filters in this last weekend, but the cycle crashed in the tank with the filters...so I didn't want to put them in and fish-in cycle with fry. That seems like a horrible idea.

Fry count's still somewhere between 200-300, so while this is distressing, it isn't a big tragedy. I have a _lot _of fry. But, hunting down bodies with a turkey baster isn't a whole lot of fun.


----------



## Schmoo

Potato Chip is adorable! To me, VTs are just the most adorable things. I don't know what it is about them, but they are. Take some pics tomorrow? c: Also, I'm sorry about your fry. :c


----------



## hrutan

VTs are my favorite. Assuming things aren't crazy at work, I'll have more pics tomorrow. I've been busy and stressed, and not photo updating like I should.

As for the fry, well...it happens. As long as I figure out and correct the cause, things should be okay. My initial hope was for a spawn of 50-100, so this is tolerable. It's more frustrating because finding the bodies is actually rather difficult.

I put in some ramshorns, and they lost their grip on the tank bottom and started floating around...steered them to the plants. Hopefully they'll remember they're supposed to be a cleanup crew, not an ornament.


----------



## caboyett

The fact that you still have that many fry is INCREDIBLE. For your sake, I don't think you want to wind up growing out 250 small, eating machines.. That sounds incredibly expensive and time consuming... One quick question, IF I decided I wanted to give this a go somewhere down the line, would a couple 20 gallons empty, and a 10g to mate them in suffice or should I not even attempt?


----------



## VivianKJean

I take back my last post - if it comes time to sell/rehome the beautiful bettas you have, I'll make room for one. I haven't had a VT in so long and would love to have one again. I could always buy a temporary kritter keeper with a heater and sponge filter until I get the funds to get a real tank


----------



## hrutan

No, I definitely do not enjoy the prospect of cleaning 250 jars every other day. LOL.

Two 20 gallons and a 10 gallon sounds pretty good to me. I have four 10's and a 20, and that should probably do even for a big spawn like this. A 10 gallon is the absolute max you want for breeding in, and remember that it'll do for part of your growout, too.

I think the harder part is not the tanks, it's heating and changing jars. Get that solved, and you're good.

I'm actually thinking of using a drip line like from a garden to refill the jars, and just siphon out 90% and let water drip in. But, that depends on whether I can find drip line that I'm happy with...


----------



## caboyett

Vivian, go to Petco! They have some sort of sale going on now, you can get a nice 10g glass aquarium for $10!


----------



## hrutan

Sadly, the sale ended two days ago. It did help out with me scrambling to the store for a couple more growouts, haha.


----------



## hrutan

VivianKJean said:


> I take back my last post - if it comes time to sell/rehome the beautiful bettas you have, I'll make room for one. I haven't had a VT in so long and would love to have one again. I could always buy a temporary kritter keeper with a heater and sponge filter until I get the funds to get a real tank


You're certainly welcome to one, once they're of size to rehome. But, let's see what makes it to jarring time.


----------



## caboyett

Hrutan, Lowes has some fairly nice setups for something like that.. I was considering, using a plastic feeding trough for cattle. They are quite large, and I would think you could fit a lot of jars in it... I was thinking of installing a couple power heads to each side to get some water flow, and then drilling several holes in my jars and floating them in the tub. Heat the tub, circulate the water around and I should be good to go, of course with water changes of the tub. ( Obviously the jars would sink to the bottom, but I don't know if that would cause an issue or not.)


----------



## hrutan

Whether that works for you depends on your stance on sharing water. My jars won't be sharing water, because I've seen one too many stories of someone losing their whole spawn. Also, if you do that be sure to clean the surface of the jars now and then, or they'll get slippery.

I'm going to be using flexwatt heat tape and shelving. It's just a question of how I want to fill the jars back up.


----------



## caboyett

Didn't think about that.. The heat tape seems to be a much better option, never even knew that existed. I'm interested to see what you construct for dripping, should be pretty nifty, if the makeshift hatchery was any indication!


----------



## VivianKJean

caboyett said:


> Vivian, go to Petco! They have some sort of sale going on now, you can get a nice 10g glass aquarium for $10!


You've obviously never seen a NYC studio apartment. I do not have the space for a 10 gallon. A 5 gallon is the biggest I could go without getting rid of my couch or bed. i'm also going to moving into an apartment with roommates within the year and I already have 3 bettas so I think If I show up with multiple 10 gallon tanks (say 2 tanks that are divided) that might be a bit much for them. I'm already concerned about finding roommates that would be cool with the amount of fish I already have. 



hrutan said:


> You're certainly welcome to one, once they're of size to rehome. But, let's see what makes it to jarring time.


yay! I'm very excited! I think your fry are going to turn out lovely!


----------



## caboyett

Vivian, I completely understand, I'm in college and currently have 3 20g tanks, and am less than a week away from finishing my 55g.. I'm obsessed I guess..


----------



## VivianKJean

caboyett said:


> Vivian, I completely understand, I'm in college and currently have 3 20g tanks, and am less than a week away from finishing my 55g.. I'm obsessed I guess..


Yeah, I'm very concerned about it. One thing is utilities because fish tanks have heaters and filters and lights. I would obviously pay the extra costs in the electric bill.


----------



## hrutan

The multitude of tanks don't seem to be impacting my water / power bill much, but it's difficult to say for sure.

We changed the temperature for the AC from our usual 74 to 77 this summer due to fear of the upcoming DWP bill, and we don't water our lawn due to drought. But, we had a burst pipe spilling hundreds of gallons of water into our living room, and the resultant power use for dehumidifying and mold cleanup. Even with that mess, we used less power than last year.

Our October DWP bill is $740. Last year at this time it was $708. Of course, it appears they've raised the rates. **sighs**


----------



## VivianKJean

my parents still pay my bills since I'm in college and can't have a full time job. I have a part time job that pays for my living expenses. They said that my tanks upped the bill a bit but not much. 

The AC i have is a window unit.... which is okay but not great. Hopefully where ever I end up has an AC unit or i'll have to buy another one..


----------



## hrutan

If all else fails, you can buy one of those portable AC units that vents out the window. We used one for years, and the one we had was surprisingly effective. Apartment owners won't gripe about them, and they aren't typically going to need approval, since they don't require screwing in or anything.


----------



## caboyett

This is DEFINITELY a concern of mine! I prefer to do 2 water changes a week at 20-30% each time. at a MINIMUM that's an extra 50 gallons per week, excluding the inevitable wasted water, and the larger changes required on my 55 gallon cichlid.. Not sure what to expect for my water and utility bills.


----------



## Tress

I guess I get to call myself lucky to be on well water here, but the delivery fee for our power is like .. 3x the amount of our *actual* usage.


----------



## VivianKJean

hrutan said:


> If all else fails, you can buy one of those portable AC units that vents out the window. We used one for years, and the one we had was surprisingly effective. Apartment owners won't gripe about them, and they aren't typically going to need approval, since they don't require screwing in or anything.


That's what I have now. But even those aren't cheap around here.


----------



## hrutan

It's not cheap, no, but it makes the difference if you end up with a place where it's too hot to even sleep.


----------



## Schmoo

Oooo~ Hrutan, I'd love to give one of your VTs a home, too, when the time comes. c: My husband and I are wanting to get a female somewhere down the road.


----------



## hrutan

Let's see what I get. I'll be posting both a sale and an adoption thread when the time comes. The spawn should give me a mix of fish, from VT to Delta to Super Delta. It's anyone's guess what color.

My dream...Oh, my dream. Black/Red marbles with butterfly bands. It's a moon shot...probably won't happen but **starry-eyes** wouldn't that be _grand_?


----------



## imaal

hrutan said:


> Let's see what I get. I'll be posting both a sale and an adoption thread when the time comes. The spawn should give me a mix of fish, from VT to Delta to Super Delta. It's anyone's guess what color.
> 
> My dream...Oh, my dream. Black/Red marbles with butterfly bands. It's a moon shot...probably won't happen but **starry-eyes** wouldn't that be _grand_?


Veiltail is entirely dominant so the fry in the F1 generation should all be veiltails--but that's what you wanted, isn't it, butterfly veils?


----------



## TripleChrome

hrutan said:


> Let's see what I get. I'll be posting both a sale and an adoption thread when the time comes. The spawn should give me a mix of fish, from VT to Delta to Super Delta. It's anyone's guess what color.
> 
> My dream...Oh, my dream. Black/Red marbles with butterfly bands. It's a moon shot...probably won't happen but **starry-eyes** wouldn't that be _grand_?




You are tempting me so bad to get one of your bettas when they are all grown up because of those colors for your dream bettas from your spawn. If only I wasnt flat broke, I would get one if they turn out like that. Who knows. Maybe I will have the money by the time they are ready. Only time will tell. ♦Gosh darn school. Quit making me have to pay money for everything. I am trying to save up for one of these bettas.♦. Because I am trying to get some more females for a sorority I will be starting with the girls of mine.


----------



## hrutan

imaal said:


> Veiltail is entirely dominant so the fry in the F1 generation should all be veiltails--but that's what you wanted, isn't it, butterfly veils?


Other people doing the same cross have gotten anything from veil to round to super delta, so I'm not going to get a whole spawn of "drapery," sadly.


----------



## Schmoo

hrutan said:


> My dream...Oh, my dream. Black/Red marbles with butterfly bands. It's a moon shot...probably won't happen but **starry-eyes** wouldn't that be _grand_?


Oooh~ That would be stunning. I'll keep my fingers crossed! :3


----------



## Crossroads

I definitely want one of these babies


----------



## imaal

hrutan said:


> Other people doing the same cross have gotten anything from veil to round to super delta, so I'm not going to get a whole spawn of "drapery," sadly.


Hmmm. Well I didn't. And I've done it several times. Now, in my case I knew the veiltail parent was homozygous, which I assumed was the case for your female. Perhaps that wasn't the case in these other matings you cite. Anway, you'll have a whole lot of veils to choose from, I'm sure.

I look forward to seeing how this turns out for you. You're doing a great job so far.


----------



## hrutan

The genetics on my female are completely unknown. It's the luck of the draw -- we'll see!


----------



## hrutan

Phew. So, it's been a busy few days, and I have been preoccupied with caring for fry and acquiring a couple more lucky ladies for Primus. 

Lady #1 is from Aquabid, through seller "Senate." She's a beautiful HM with a nice, clean color. Bred with Primus, I should get a lot of high quality HM and SD:



Lady #2 is a "mutt" fish, a product of breeding VT into a line for color. Grandparents were VT x HMPK, crossed at the next gen back to HMPK again. Note the extra ray divisions. She's not a pure VT. Crossed with Primus, I should get VT, SD, HM, and maybe even a few PK. Her siblings were orange cambodian, yellow, and brown body / yellow fins bicolor. She was bred by Robert Totman.

From her cross, I'll save both the best VT, and the best HM, if any.

This image is delightful to me, because it shows rays so very clearly.


----------



## hrutan

Now let's talk about...Potato Chip!

Mr. Chip is doing well in his new home. His colors are very nice. He's not red, precisely, but he isn't purple, either.



Here's where things get silly: Potato Chip seems to have a little trouble with his depth perception. He tries to eat food, and it bonks over his mouth or on his forehead. It took him a good 10, 15 minutes to eat his 4 pellet breakfast this morning, because his aim is so bad.

What the _heck_, fish? Didn't someone teach you how to _eat_?

Obviously, he's capable of finding the food eventually, or he'd be dead. He has a nicely rounded body, it just takes him a while. Silly fish. In time, he'll adjust.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

Sherlock has some serious depth perception issues with food. He'll swim around with the pellet on his head for a while, and I have to go "Oi fish! It's on your freaking head!" And eventually he'll get the idea, but wow. He's ridiculous. 

Potato Chip is very cute, and looks quite healthy.  Wonderful.


----------



## kjg1029

I'm glad you got potato chip! He's adorable! and the females are beautiful!


----------



## Zuzu

Nosey gets larger pellets stuck on his "nose" from time to time. Picture someone blowing a puff of air up to get some hair out of their eyes - that's what it reminds me of when he dislodges the pellet. I'm sure he's just sort of jerking his head up, but it's more fun to think he's poofing.


----------



## BettaStarter24

Hows mr. Phoenix doing? All your fish babies are so pretty!


----------



## hrutan

I'm sorry, I meant to do a photo shoot of my home fish earlier this week, and got sidetracked by babies. Ha. So I just ran around the house snapping pictures.

Phoenix struck a totally absurd pose. He's doing well. Forgive him the notch in his tail, he took a snap at some food and missed. Silly boy.


Goliath is resting in his plants, as usual.


Elizabeth is always gorgeous. She's been flirting with Primus through the divider.


Primus didn't want his photo taken.


Mr. Kitty is happy in his tiny tank. But, you can see in his pic why I need to trim his fins (still haven't gotten ahold of any clove oil). He doesn't appear to be suffering.


Vladimir had a little accident with some terrain.


Hades with flash.


Hades without flash.


Mystique was hiding.

BONUS PLECO!


----------



## hrutan

Bon wanted me to let you all know that he shouldn't be left out of anything.


----------



## Schmoo

Oh my goodness, your kitty looks so soft! He reminds me of a fuzzier version of my kitten, Lando. 

All of your bettas are stunning! I especially love how vibrant Elizabeth is, and how regal Vlad looks. Hades reminds me of my Mace - his colors come out so much more vibrant and obvious with flash.


----------



## hrutan

Bon is soft, but he is also very, very sharp, and has many concealed weapons. lol.

Actually the flash is weird because it conceals Hades's color. Without flash he has green body, tan fins, black butterfly band. With flash he turns turquoise all over.


----------



## Schmoo

hrutan said:


> Actually the flash is weird because it conceals Hades's color. Without flash he has green body, tan fins, black butterfly band. With flash he turns turquoise all over.


Oh. Interesting. xD I wonder why that is? Light refracting off of the water and his scales?


----------



## hrutan

That's the "irids" you're always hearing about. An iridescent layer. Phoenix has purple irids, Hades has turquoise ones.


----------



## VivianKJean

OMG Phoenix has colored up SO nicely!!!!!


----------



## BettaStarter24

Oh wow Phoenix has changed so much! All of your fishes (and the cat) are so good looking!


----------



## hrutan

I just did the rounds to feed the fishies, and Goliath is pineconing. We've dosed him with Maracyn 2 in the off-chance we can save him, but he shared a siphon (shame on me). And due to an unfortunate chain of events, that means EVERYONE could be contaminated. And I'm noticing spurts of erratic swimming in the 75g.

This is going to be fun. And by fun, I mean not fun at all.


----------



## VivianKJean

oh know  poor little guys!


----------



## Tress

Oh no D: I hope Goliath pulls through and everyone else dodges the bullet!


----------



## hrutan

Well, Goliath has always been a terribly lazy fish, so he may have been weak to start. But, I don't want to flip a coin and get the wrong answer, you know?


----------



## hrutan

Okay. So the erratic swimming in the big tank is definitely _velvet_. I can't believe I missed it. Mystique and the pandas are coated in gold under a flashlight. I have to treat the whole tank...which is probably gonna kill my plants, but what do you do?

I'd been thinking about starting that tank over without the dirt, anyway. The methane outgassing was driving me mad.

Goliath, however, is not coated in gold dust.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Well basically we have a fish room turning into a fish hospital, nursery and all. I got through velvet with blackout and cupramine for 2 weeks no problem.


----------



## hrutan

Yep, I'm off to buy black trash bags to cover the big tank.


----------



## hrutan

Goliath is still swimming.

I'm going to try him on the full round of antibiotics, we'll see if that does anything. If there's no improvement at all in a couple of days, I'll probably euthanize him and sterilize the tank. He looks like he's struggling, but I want to give him a fighting chance. I don't want him to suffer needlessly, though.

No signs of illness from the other bettas, except Mystique in the 75g. Poor little lady. Well, hopefully everyone will pull through. I'll take off the bags at some point tomorrow and count everyone, just in case. Toothless will want another cucumber and I bet everyone would appreciate some algae wafers.

On a side note:
I'd been told mollies are a brackish water fish, but my neighbor had always kept hers in fresh, and so has my roommate's family. So I looked it up.

They _are not_ a brackish water fish. They just like alkaline, hard water. PH 7.8-8 is just about right. Most municipal tap water comes out at around a PH of 7, and isn't particularly hard, so mollies won't thrive. They are also sensitive to nitrites and nitrates.

Aquarium salt solves both problems by hardening the water and helping mollies withstand poor water conditions. Thus, the brackish water myth. It doesn't help that mollies are so hardy to salt in the first place.

Guess what my tap water is? 7.8 PH and hard! Perfect for mollies! The water conditions aquarists struggle with are natural, here.

So we bought a few.
And now they're stuck in black-out, being medicated for velvet.
Velvet that probably came from Mystique or the pandas, not from the shop.

On the up side, they ate most of my nasty hair algae away in a day. Watching them graze was quite interesting.


----------



## hestersu

I have 2 balloon mollies in my community tank. I have 7.6pH and super hard water. I stop counting after 13 drops on GH and KH. These 2 guys are hilarious to watch. They are like goats - they eat everything. I call them the Spaz. My Harlequins Rasboras don't like the hard water. I've lost 2 already. The clown loach is thriving. And growing. Enjoy your mollies!


----------



## TripleChrome

So covering the tank up with something making it dark will help with the velvet? If so, I need to do that with my girl Scarlett.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, part of velvet's life cycle requires photosynthesis, so blacking out the tank will keep it from feeding on the fish. That starves it. It probably won't work on its own, but it's part of an effective treatment when paired with medication.


----------



## hrutan

Spent some time this morning upgrading Potato Chip's living quarters. New tank!


----------



## VivianKJean

Aweeee I love the tank! Potato Chip is going to love it!


----------



## hrutan

**sighs**

My new girl hasn't arrived yet, and all the post office can tell me is that they didn't receive her today. They get the same tracking information that the public gets. There's been no updates since she left the post office in OH on Monday.

Waiting for a fish to come in the mail is agonizing.


----------



## hestersu

hrutan said:


> **sighs**
> 
> My new girl hasn't arrived yet, and all the post office can tell me is that they didn't receive her today. They get the same tracking information that the public gets. There's been no updates since she left the post office in OH on Monday.
> 
> Waiting for a fish to come in the mail is agonizing.


I feel your pain. I was on pins and needles waiting for Tai.


----------



## Tress

hrutan said:


> **sighs**
> 
> My new girl hasn't arrived yet, and all the post office can tell me is that they didn't receive her today. They get the same tracking information that the public gets. There's been no updates since she left the post office in OH on Monday.
> 
> Waiting for a fish to come in the mail is agonizing.


That's the main reason I rarely even consider buying fish that need to be shipped. My post office is so bad, we've got so many damaged packages and letters and most look like someone tried to peek at what it is. Though, anything through UPS/etc. comes to the gas station. Last time I got something they didn't even _call me.

_I couldn't even imagine shipping something living through them.


----------



## hrutan

It's been fine the other couple of times. These shipping boxes for fish are padded all to the dickens. Phoenix and Primus came through fat and happy. But the waiting is tough...not having Unnamed Girl be here on the expected day is tough.

I keep telling myself I'll pay for express next time, guaranteed overnight. But every time it's offered, the sticker shock gets me.


----------



## BlueInkFish

And this is why you live near a transhipper XD!!!
Jk!
I've always wondered how it's felt to wait for a fish in the mail :3 it's only happened to me once but the fish was from Tahoe  >_< though the wait is very agonizing!


----------



## hrutan

I actually don't use the transshipper in CA. I use Linda Olson, because Julie Tran didn't answer my email when I asked her how to go about buying and shipping a fish. Linda's customer service is excellent.

But, the fish in question is coming direct from a breeder. My import will be coming next week.


----------



## hestersu

I used Linda Olson too. Great customer service. She handled Tai as he shipped from Thailand to the states.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yeah.. Julie isn't that great with emails! In person she isn't as really as energetic as I would've imagined her to be XD! When I think of fish hobbyist I think of excited up and ready to go people! Though I'm not so sure if she even owns any personal fish :3!

She's great with dealing with fish though! She keeps them in her personal office when she's received them ! Though I'm unsure where else she keeps them haha!


----------



## hrutan

Up...excited, ready to go? Not even _after _I've had my coffee. Ha!


----------



## BlueInkFish

XD!! Busy much!? 

I'm thinking of getting another pair for breedig and rebreed the blue hm btf pair. I only got about 5 fry out of the pair I just spawned the blue btf pair. 

I just love a challenge! Two spawns at once sounds great ^__^! 
Any suggestions color wise and fin type?


----------



## hrutan

If you're doing HM, stick to HM. Salamander is an interesting choice. I wonder what you'd get from Salamander x Chocolate/MG?


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow! An interesting combination!

 I'll keep those color ideas in mind!


----------



## hrutan

Good news: My new girl is out for delivery. The mailman's truck is sitting outside the library. She'll be here soon - the guy usually walks down the block and delivers everything while parked outside our place, so no telling when she'll be coming in.

As for sad stuff...
Goliath is still with us. A round of antibiotics didn't reduce his symptoms, and he is slowly getting worse. I cupped him to prep for euthanasia this morning, and he fought me hard...I let him back in the tank. He's still fighting. He's not ready to go yet. Set him up with Epsom Salt at 1 tsp / gallon, even though it's unlikely to do much. Maybe it will reduce the swelling and make him a bit more comfortable.

I would have been able to go through with it, if he hadn't fought. Everyone has to go some time, but he said "Not yet."

Fight on, my silly little fighting fish. You'll let me know.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

Do you have a picture of Goliaths problem?


----------



## hrutan

Full body pineconing + swelling. Don't have any pics for you - didn't really need help identifying dropsy. :-(


----------



## hrutan

Here she is! Safe and sound. She's so tiny!


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

For me, when I had one of my fish have it, I put them in a cup every day for 45mins in salt. After the dip I would return it back to the tank and after a week, the swelling went down and the fish was okay.


----------



## hrutan

You got very, very lucky. Did the fish survive long term?


----------



## VivianKJean

agreed. did the fish survive long term. 

Also dropsy isn't a illness but a symptom of organ failure due to bacterial infection. In very rare cases bettas survive but it is very rare.


----------



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84

The fish is still alive yes, she's about 6-8 months old now.


----------



## hrutan

That's why I tried a round of antibiotics first. I figured the salt will bring down the swelling, but won't solve the underlying problem.

Goliath's always been a very lazy fish, and my suspicion is that this is straight-up organ failure, no bacterial infection involved. His low energy and penchant for falling asleep on leaves and in odd places and positions might have been funny, but in retrospect may have been an indication that his health was never good.

I'm still going to sterilize the tank and give the plants a 5% bleach dip when he passes, just in case. Hate to throw away a cycled filter, but it would hurt more to lose another fish to the same cause.


----------



## hrutan

We have decided to call our new yellow girl Catherine the Great. She's very small, much smaller than Primus and Elizabeth. I'm going to start her on a careful regimen of feeding and water changes, and see if she'll grow a bit more. She's of age for breeding, but so small that I am worried she will get beaten up.


----------



## hrutan

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm considering breeding Phoenix. Breeding special pet fish isn't a great idea, since they can get pretty torn up. But, on the other hand, Phoenix's orange pineapple with purple wash is a striking combination. Crossed with yellow, I have a chance of getting offspring just like him. Offspring would be orange/red/yellow with iridescence. The question is whether the purple irids will breed true. Typically, I'd avoid iridescence, as it is considered a fault, but veils can't be shown in any category other than the Variations, anyway.

Phoenix's coloring and rock-solid constitution are traits worth passing on, but there's no way of knowing whether his fin form is any good, considering the extreme amount of damage he suffered when younger. I think his caudal and anal fins are pretty good for the standards I'm interested in, but the dorsal isn't up to par. It sags over his back. The question is, does it sag due to damage, or genetics? There's no way of knowing without breeding and examining his offspring.

This is what I want:
http://issuu.com/stefankruger/docs/bettas4allstandard2014-chapter3f/3?e=3645532/7966031

Mind you, the offspring would make perfectly good pets and be easy to rehome no matter what their form is. Part of the reason I am considering Phoenix is because he hypnotizes my guests. I had someone stop and stare for like 10 minutes last week. I wanted to show him the babies, but he couldn't get his eyes of Phoenix long enough to pay attention. :roll:

Dear lord. This hobby is consuming everything. But on the other hand, whether I go through with it or not, the speculation alone is fascinating.


----------



## VivianKJean

I would LOVE a Phoenix offspring! I agree that he is striking!


----------



## hrutan

If breeding bettas was safe for the parents, I wouldn't have any hesitation. As it is, I'm cautiously for it. Sentimentality plays a part. Their lives are so short, and having some of his line forever seems...nice. But I wouldn't want to cause him harm.


----------



## Veloran

What did I miss, just spent 18 days on a topical island (couldn't be bothered to flip on the computer), I get back and Phoenix is in the stud farm. That little fish has had an interesting life I tell you. Can you imagine the amount of mossballs you'll have to get if the offspring turn out like daddy?

Oh well, I'll be slowly going through the dozen or so pages playing catchup :lol:


----------



## hrutan

I'm just...thinking about it. If he ends up being a Big Stud, he'll be bred in 3 weeks. That female is _really _small, and needs to get some high quality food in her. Plenty of water changes, too. I want her to get a little size.


----------



## hrutan

Euthanizing Goliath this morning. I'm feeling pretty down about it, but he wasn't getting better. This morning he refused food, and some of his scales were getting cloudy discoloration.

Swim in peace, little buddy. You'll feel better, soon.


----------



## Crossroads

I'm sorry to hear about Goliath Hrutan D: I was rooting for his recovery
SIP Goliath buddy


----------



## hrutan

*Spotlight: Phoenix!*

It's water change day! And poor Phoenix is going to lose a masterpiece!



He was showing off for me this morning. Orange. PURPLE!


Look at that BEARD!


----------



## kjg1029

im sorry S.I.P. Goliath.


----------



## LadyNightraven

I'm so sorry about Goliath. SIP. I hope it brings you comfort to know you gave him a good life.

Phoenix is gorgeous as always! It's always nice to see pictures of him.


----------



## Schmoo

So sorry about Goliath. :c I was keeping him in my thoughts. SIP, buddy.


----------



## Pippin

Poor Goliath...SIP. 

My sister just saw the newest picture of Phoenix. The only other pictures she has seen of him were when he was being rescued.


----------



## hrutan

Thank you, all. I appreciate your condolences. He was a great fish, but he was suffering. Once he passed and I had a good cry, everything was pretty much okay. I'll miss him, of course, but delaying the inevitable when there is no hope is cruel. The kindest gift we can give our pets when they have no quality of life is a comfortable end.

Last night we bought a new fish (the empty tank was just too sad), tore apart Goliath's tank, and sanitized it with alcohol. I gave all the plants a 45 second bleach dip. We threw out the sand and sponge filter, wiped down the interior of the tank with alcohol, cleaned the heater and suction cups with alcohol, and gave the whole tank a makeover.

One thing didn't make it back in the tank: Penn-Plax Skull With Jewel Eyes ornament. You might've seen it somewhere in the journal, it's a big skull with a patterned surface and ruby eyes. Goliath loved to sleep in it.

It smelled like burned chemicals.

Well, well, well.

There was no odor outside the tank. I had no way to know until it was pulled out of the water and something smelled off. We had another one in one of my roommate's tanks. She pulled it out and sniffed it...it smelled too, although not as strong. But then, it wasn't in the water as long, either.

I guess they'll make good Halloween decorations in the window sill.

For those who might not get the significance: Your sense of smell works by detecting molecules present in the air. These molecules are given off by the object you're smelling, whether that's dog poop, roses, or in this case, an aquarium ornament. If it smelled like burned chemicals, it was therefore releasing these chemical molecules into the air. And therefore, also into the water. Water _loves _to pick up loose molecules.

I have no proof that this ornament killed my fish. But dropsy is a sign of kidney failure. The kidneys and liver fail when they have too much poison to process out of a system.

_Nothing _but live plants, silk plants, rocks and driftwood goes into my aquariums from now on. Period.


----------



## Tress

I completely agree with you. I had to deal with a similar situation, so I know how you feel.

New fish? Another betta? Pics please :3

Sounds like another ornament for the Dangerous Ornaments Thread. Penn-Plax is a major player in that list, and other people have had fish die/go dropsy from the same situation.


----------



## hrutan

I'll post some pics when I have the chance. Don't have any yet because we only put him in his tank this morning, and he was striped up still. He's a blue/green BIG boy, about 3" long. Even though he was $30, he sold himself in the pet store by playing with us when we were looking at the fishies. The giants/kings are all in 10g display tanks, and he was chasing our fingers, following them up and down, and all-in-all being an attentive clown. :-D


----------



## VivianKJean

hrutan said:


> I'll post some pics when I have the chance. Don't have any yet because we only put him in his tank this morning, and he was striped up still. He's a blue/green BIG boy, about 3" long. Even though he was $30, he sold himself in the pet store by playing with us when we were looking at the fishies. The giants/kings are all in 10g display tanks, and he was chasing our fingers, following them up and down, and all-in-all being an attentive clown. :-D


*gasp* a local fish store that actually keeps their bettas in good condition? Im jealous. I went to one here that "claims" to house bettas properly and they were in .5 gallon tanks, no heater (the store was also very cold), no decor, and lots of waste at the bottom of the tanks giving me the idea that they were not properly cleaned in forever.


----------



## hrutan

The manager at my local pet store is a member of IBC. :-D

Yes, the standard bettas are in cups, but they don't have much choice about that. The store is kept warm enough that they aren't losing condition from temperature, and all the display tanks are kept filled with beautiful bettas. They are heated and filtered. The tanks themselves are for sale too, of course. The smallest cups are changed every other day, and the big 32 oz cups are changed twice a week.

I've never seen a sick betta, although they are often shocky on shipment day since there's a big PH difference between us and Thailand. I've seen only 2 dead ones in 5 months. The manager says the shipments come in tiny, tiny bags and they are _impossible _to acclimate. No matter what they do, they'll lose a few to shock.

Their fish are _beautiful_. I am so spoiled.


----------



## hrutan

*May I present to you...our local Friendly Giant!*

He's positively frisky.



I wanted to name him Andre, but my roommate turned me down.



He lets her pet him along the dorsal fin. What a goofy, friendly boy.


----------



## Tress

Wow, he is a big boy!

And you're so lucky to have a great store. My lps is... *shudders*.


----------



## Zuzu

Oh my goodness, that new boy is a hunk! LOL I'd be happy if *&#$ Petco would at least put their kings in bigger cups. I've noticed that our local Petco lately has quite a few kings and quite a few TINY bettas - and I'm not even talking about the babies. At least the display for the babies is sort-of hidden around a corner, not right up front when you walk in like the rest of the bettas are.

*sigh* The closest locally-owned pet/fish shop is 45 minutes away, and I haven't heard particularly good reviews. I've heard good things about the shops that are 90 minutes away, but that's way too far for us. *sigh*


----------



## hrutan

Some of the fish in those cups at Petco look barely bigger than the babies. They are getting them younger and younger...it's crazy. And what they do with their kings is shameful.


----------



## umarnasir335

If you think your new boy looks good right now, wait until he's settled in and you've fattened him up. Giants and kings look bada** when they reach their true potential IMO


----------



## hrutan

Yeah! I can't wait to see him flare!

And his name is...TITAN!


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## Tress

Titan totally fits him xD


----------



## autojoy

Sorry to hear about Goliath... I'm shocked at the state of the skull ornament. I don't understand why companies don't thoroughly test their own products?!  

I am also shocked at Phoenix!!! Last time I saw pictures of him he had just been rescued from the car park! I do not even recognise him!!! What a happy ending ^_^

Titan is so cute! *_*


----------



## hrutan

A funny thing happened while I was at PetCo:





Cute little Tidbit, isn't he? At least, I _think _it's a he.


----------



## Nimble

So tiny and cute. Is that its name? Tidbit?


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I think so. He's floating in my water aging tank and noshing on walter worms at the moment. He looks so thin, gotta fill up that belly. He'll get some BBS tonight when I feed the rest of the babies.

His water wasn't _too _bad in the cup, but definitely not good. Working on getting him acclimated.


----------



## Schmoo

Aww! What a little cutie patootie!


----------



## hrutan

Little Tidbit is doing _much_ better this morning. He's energetic, and his belly is nice and round, like a fry's should be. It's funny how being warm, clean and full can bring about such changes. He still had BBS in his cup, so no food this morning, but I gave him a quick water change.

He's going to stay cupped and floating for now, until I figure out what to do with him. Good practice for when I'm dealing with all eleventy-billion of my homegrown fry.


----------



## Tress

Well, practice does make perfect


----------



## hrutan

It rained on Halloween, and we were blessed with a bubble nest in almost every male's tank. Mr. Kitty surpassed all competition with this impressive masterpiece:



He's always been quite an architect, and this one was the most creative that I've seen yet. It's thicker than his entire body and very firmly packed. His fins are regrowing quite nicely, by the way.

Titan was the only male that didn't blow a bubble nest. He watched Mr. Kitty build his, though, and seemed impressed. How do we know he's impressed?



"He" started dancing. And grew a gently rounded belly. With a suddenly visible, somewhat distended egg spot.

PLAKATS.


----------



## Nimble

So, it seems that Titan is a Titaness? Who knew?


----------



## hrutan

We'll be calling her Titania from now on, hehe.

No one knew. Not the store manager, not me. No one that saw "his" pics online commented about the sexing error, either. All I have to say is...

PLAKATS. :roll:


----------



## Nimble

Plakats. XD


----------



## Tress

Bahahaha, that is hilarious.

Also yay Mr. Kitty! I was starting to wonder how he was doing


----------



## Aqua Aurora

Congratulations its a bo..errr girl! Quite the butch gal too. Would be funny if you tried putting a female in with "him" to breed, "wtf do you expect me to do? grow genitals?!"


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## Tress

Aqua Aurora said:


> Congratulations its a bo..errr girl! Quite the butch gal too. Would be funny if you tried putting a female in with "him" to breed, "wtf do you expect me to do? grow genitals?!"


Bahaha xD I was thinking that too. Go breed them and have to very confused females...


----------



## hrutan

I just uncovered the 75 gallon after a 2 week blackout + Methylene Blue for velvet. And guess what I found?! Well, guess!


----------



## hrutan

No guesses? No one wants to take even a shot? How about a photo to help you out?


----------



## Tress

Babies!... babies from what


----------



## hrutan

Molly babies! Lucky little guys were born during the blackout. Must've made it easier for them to hide haha.


----------



## hestersu

Too funny! I have 2 mollies but they are boys.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Lol! That's too cute, I guess the velvet is gone eh?


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## hrutan

Yes, and the behavior of every fish in the tank has changed as a result (except the Mollies, who were new). They must have been sick for a while and I didn't realize it. It explains why I was losing pandas, one by one. Now the pandas are playing the way they should be, Mystique is strutting her stuff, and there are little molly babies everywhere.

Oh, and hahaha, here I was midning my own business, typing this post. Titania's tank is right next to the computer. I hear a clatter, and look over. Seems an air bubble formed in the sand, and just erupted, scattering gravel. Titania is circling the spot, keeping a VERY close eye on the gravel. The picture of betta bewilderment!


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## Schmoo

Surprise babies! xD I just experienced this, myself. I have a guppy fry (just one though, very odd) that one of my females gave me.


----------



## hrutan

The last female I intend to purchase for a while is...IN THE MAIL. Wooo!

OOF I hate how long it takes, sometimes. It's twice a month shipping from Thailand, or once a month from Indonesia. Takes forever if you order right after a shipment. But she'll be here soon, and I can start feeding her up for my second spawn.


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## hrutan

Today in the mail I got:
1 lovely female betta
1 thermostat
Heat Tape

And when I visited my friend at the LPS, she gave me:
Starter daphnia culture
Live brine shrimp.

Oookay, I have my work cut out for me!


----------



## Thothgirl

Good Luck!


----------



## Tress

Lots of work but lots of fun too


----------



## hrutan

I've been offered a position as an interim branch manager at a different library, and while I did accept the offer, it feels bittersweet. While this is not a true promotion, such things are often followed by a permanent position, either at the new location or elsewhere, and I'm on the list for interviews for permanent promotion this month. This is the first time that I have had mixed feelings about leaving a position. Even though it means only good things for me, the staff that I have had the pleasure to work with for the past three years are my friends, and I will miss seeing them every day.

Buttercup comes home with me next week. Potato Chip stays; he is library property, and the staff will take good care of him. One of the clerks used to work for county animal control, and enjoys caring for animals. He volunteered to take over for me.

It feels very strange to not want this to be goodbye to my little neighborhood library, and yet at the same time _need_ it to be a permanent goodbye.


----------



## Crossroads

Perhaps if you have time you can volunteer some time every now and again? Like if there's a little reading club or activity for little ones like a story time you could volunteer to read to the children if you have time and still want to give to that little library? That way you can visit friends and Potato Chip too without it feeling like a job. Congrats on the new position!


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## hrutan

Nah, if I had spare time that wasn't getting eaten up by family and fry, I'd be volunteering at the animal shelter instead. I used to do that, once upon a time. Being an adoption counselor is quite satisfying, and there's nothing like taking a lonely dog for a walk on a bad day. I liked volunteering at the animal shelter, supplementing the very difficult job that the officers are trying to perform. Those were tasks that the animal control officers did not have enough time and hands to do.

Going in on my day off in order to work some more is not my cup of tea. A properly done story time requires a great deal of preparation - that's what the children's librarian and fleet of highly-trained volunteers is for. It's more work than the job I'm actually doing, and there are other people that are better at it than me. If I'm going to visit, I'll just visit.


----------



## Crossroads

I've never been a librarian or done something like the story time, so I wasn't aware it took a lot of training and stuff, wow. The animal shelter sounds like fun though! :>


----------



## hrutan

A librarian job is a mandatory Master's degree in Information Science or Library and Information Science. Your application will be automatically rejected for anything less. Random tidbit of information for the day.


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## Crossroads

Holy moly. That is an interesting tidbit. Thats crazy!


----------



## hrutan

Not everyone who works at the library is a librarian, so it isn't as strange as it might seem. Our support staff do not require advanced degrees. Most metropolitan branch libraries will have 2-4 librarians and a total staff of 9 to 12. Rural and small town libraries might only have one, the manager.

Our duties include:
Budgeting
Book and general supply orders
Training new staff and volunteers
Volunteer recruitment
Community outreach and partnerships
Collection development (maintaining a balanced collection that meets the needs of our specific community)
Reference/Information services
Programming (anything from story time to robotics workshops to computer literacy classes)
Community liason for public service
And probably a few more things that I can't think of at the moment.


----------



## Schmoo

hrutan said:


> A librarian job is a mandatory Master's degree in Information Science or Library and Information Science. Your application will be automatically rejected for anything less. Random tidbit of information for the day.


I was actually fairly surprised when I learned this (I am juggling the idea, along with several others, of becoming a librarian). When I thought about it though, of course it does.


----------



## hrutan

Titania jumped today. Fortunately, I found her while she was still quite wet. She must not have been out of the water very long, because she's now swimming around normally. I put stress coat and IAL in the water, and taped down her lid. Hopefully there will be no ill effects.

...she isn't even striped. Silly girl.


----------



## Tress

>.< silly silly girl.


----------



## hrutan

She's fine this morning. Doing the food-food-food dance like everyone else. I think I'm going to do some searching and see if I can find a more secure tank for her - she's so large, lowering the water level doesn't mean all that much for preventing suicide attempts. So maybe I can find a 10 gallon that fits in that space, something with a properly fitting lid. I suspect she might still be growing, anyway. You wouldn't believe what a bottomless pit of food she is.

Yesterday I went to the Golden State Bettas meeting, and we all had a very good time. Some of us went out for dinner afterwards and chatted, and before we knew it, the sun had gone down and it was time for the drive home.

It takes about an hour and a half of driving to get out to the meetings, but it's worth it.


----------



## Hopeseeker

Sadly, when I finally am able to start breeding, there are no IBC branches in this area. The closest is north Cali........just not seeing why they don't have a branch in Washington or Oregon, because I've seen at least 3 breeders on this website, possibly more, that live in Washington. There has to be more people that want to join, but are discouraged by there not being one closer. The farthest I would go is Oregon. Maybe.......someday.


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## hrutan

Gather up 5 folks and make your own chapter


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## Kdowg2121

I see you live in Los Angeles, and I live in Bakersfield, if you're familiar. Is your chapter north or south of LA? I would love to go sometime, I'm kinda the only betta lover/weirdo in my area. ._.


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## hrutan

My chapter is south of LA, based in Long Beach. That should be marginally closer for you than Santa Clara, but still an ugly drive.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I actually live in North Cali, there are no meeting throughout December, for the CBS. Here is for all you Noth Calafornians who are addicted to Bettas and want to join the fun and community! 
http://www.cbsbettas.org/meeting_schedule.html


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## hrutan

GSB has some talk of maybe doing a Christmastime meeting. I hope we do - my juvies should be ready to rehome locally at that point, and it would be fun to bring them and show them off.


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## hrutan

Today is going to be a good day. The family's all away, and I've been left to my own devices. We'll have a new oven delivered after 1PM, and some people are coming to work on the house.

I have time for everything I want to do. How rare is that? Water changes for every fish, house cleaning, and reorganization. Lovely, lovely, lovely. Maybe I'll get some nice pictures while I'm at it.


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## Tress

I love those moments where it's just you, and the things you want to do, with no one around to distract you. And there better be pictures


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## hrutan

It was a lovely, quiet day. And then I disappeared off the face of the planet, lol. Yesterday was busy to make up for it - too busy to be able to stop and make a few forum posts.

I did get a good picture. Mister Kitty is doing well. Those are air bubbles, not ich:


And here’s the new giant betta display at my lps:


I kicked the poor girls out of their divided 10 gallon, and yanked the dividers out, cleaned it up, and planted it. An additional grow-out tank for the babies was necessary. Elizabeth is jarred for the moment, poor girl, and Nimbus (that's that yellow girl I bought from Aquabid and was waiting for so eagerly) is in a breeding tank.

Here's the new grow-out:


That leads me into something I wanted to talk about: Betta breeding techniques. I’m going to blather on about all sorts of things in the next post. Please feel free to comment, if you have any thoughts. I’m craving a bit of discussion.


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## hrutan

I have been puzzled over the last couple of months about how people are breeding - in 2.5 or 5 gallon tanks, taking the daddy out promptly when the babies are free-swimming, or even before in some cases. The female is expected to get mangled, and the male is also expected to take damage, sometimes severe. After the male is removed, he often becomes lethargic, and sometimes dies.

Some breeders talk about how the male needs to “show the female who’s boss” or “beat the female into submission.” They complain about females that are reluctant to breed, and pair her with a more aggressive male when other measures fail. Female deaths or mutilations aren’t all that uncommon.

Wait. What? We have a word for that, don’t we?

Forced matings are not unknown in the animal kingdom (chimpanzees can be quite brutal), but they aren’t terribly common outside of a few select species. Usually, the female selects the male. The entire process is driven by the female. Everything depends on what she wants.

Look at peacocks, for example. The male grows that magnificent plumage, and for what? To attract a mate. He’ll make a fool of himself. He’ll fan out those feathers and shake his booty. He’ll dance. He’ll strut. He’ll shout his love of the lady to the whole world in a hellish scream.

If she’s not impressed, no dice.

Have you ever watched a male betta court a desirable female? He fans his whole tail out, holding it like a flag. He shakes it. He shakes his whole body, in fact, and flares his beard out and swims in a beautiful, snakelike dance. He beckons to the female. He sashays up to her and tries to lead her back to his nest. If she’s uninterested, he’ll try building the nest up and showing it to her again. Every now and then, he’ll nip at her, but it’s more of a “tag” than anything else. Given enough room, she swims away from the unwanted attention, and he goes back to constructing a more elaborate nest until it’s time to try again.

A 2.5 gallon doesn’t give her any place to get away. He’s doing what his body is telling him to, and that’s to get that lady under his nest and breed. If she doesn’t “submit,” one or the other of them is going to end up seriously injured or dead. Sometimes, the fish get lucky and neither one is interested. It drives the breeder crazy, but let’s face it – you can only force nature so far.

I think the head bow, in a less cramped setting, is by no means a gesture of submission. That’s an invitation. Calling that bow down and butt waggle “submitting to the male’s desires” is very much the product of a male-centric point of view. Submission is accepting the inevitable. The term leaves no room for desire or enjoyment (except in certain settings that are irrelevant to this discussion), and that’s a load of bull-pucky. That un-coerced butt waggle is the equivalent of “COME HERE, SAILOR BOY!”

I guess I can understand the drive to get the fish breed by whatever means necessary. A good fish is going to cost $50 or more, including shipping. That’s a pretty big investment. A pair is going to cost you $100 or more. You want to get your money back from that. You need babies, and you need them ASAP.
Well, I’m long past the point in my life where “broke” meant hoping to scrounge together enough change to go buy some Ramen. I went to college, got myself a couple of degrees, and have a decent job. I’m not wealthy by any means, but I don’t have to worry about eating, or whether the electricity will stay on this month. As long as I am very careful, I can afford to gamble a little bit.

So I’m trying an experiment. But before I talk about that, let’s consider something else: Selection pressures. More to come in the next post.


----------



## Nimble

How reliable/effective was your artificial hatchery method, hrutan? Would you recommend it for people with notorious egg-eaters, or neglectful males, or excessively large spawns?


----------



## hrutan

Selection pressures are the forces that determine the traits for the next generation. There are two types: Natural, and artificial.

Natural selection, summed up in a single phrase, is “Death of the least fit.” Things in the natural world kill off animals or plants that have detrimental traits. Over time, those detrimental traits will disappear from the gene pool since those creatures do not survive to breed, or do not breed frequently or well. At the same time, creatures with traits that give them some sort of an edge are reproducing with more success.

Sometimes the selection pressures are quite harsh, forcing rapid change. Humans come and cut down the forest; a river changes course, there is a drought. Only the best and most fit survive, and sme species die out completely. Sometimes the pressure are mild – antelopes are running more efficiently, but lions’ colors blend into the grass better. There’s give and take. Things are constantly changing due to a myriad of forces. Traits that were once a benefit might become a drawback, and the other way around.

That’s evolution explained in a nutshell.

Artificial selection is human’s answer to the slowness of natural evolution. We need a trait in our animals, so we breed for it. We kill, harvest, or neuter the creatures that do not meet our criteria. Artificial selection is very, very harsh. The only thing that creates more rapid change is genetic engineering.

With that in mind, why on this green Earth are we selecting for the following things in betta fish?:
-	Male to Female violence
-	Egg Eating
-	Fry Eating
-	Failure to Nurture Fry

Why do I say we’re selecting for these pressures? 
-	We make them breed in small containers where neither fish can display proper courting behaviors. 
-	We yank the dad out the moment the fry are swimming. 
-	If he’s eating eggs, we’ll take him out sooner. 
-	Some breeders will even construct a mesh “trap” under an egg-eater’s nest so that he can’t chow down, and then artificially hatch them. 

People will do _anything _to get eggs out of a pair that they need offspring from.

Betta Splendens males, if left to their own devices, will tend to the fry – but only if their instincts are working properly. Many of them don’t seem to get the memo, and eat all their babies. That’s no wonder, considering we’re deliberately capturing and hatching out eggs from notorious egg eaters. After all, we need a return on our investment, right?

Here’s what should, in an ideal world, happen when the male is left in the breeding tank:
-	The male will eat infertile eggs and deformed fry
-	The male will continue “trimming down” the brood to fit his habitat
-	The male will repeatedly mouth and clean his babies
-	The male will call his babies to him, and feed his babies food fragments from his mouth
-	The male will keep his babies “in line” and delay the onset of aggression with his presence
-	The babies will experience good health and accelerated growth

In a tank, at the onset of sexual maturity, all hell will break loose. The fry will start picking fights with each other. In a natural environment, they would probably have dispersed before then, but in an artificial one, the alpha female will likely breed with her father.

Next: My breeding experiment.


----------



## hrutan

Nimble said:


> How reliable/effective was your artificial hatchery method, hrutan? Would you recommend it for people with notorious egg-eaters, or neglectful males, or excessively large spawns?


It was quite effective, if you want to go that route. I had a hatch rate of probably 70%, and considering it was a virgin pair, many of the ones that didn't hatch were probably infertile.


----------



## hrutan

Many breeders won’t use a 10 gallon tank, claiming it’s too big. The pair will lose interest, blah, blah, blah. And yet…at the same time, hobbyists on this forum warn very seriously and consistently about having both males and females in the same tank no matter what size it is, because sooner or later, a spawn will happen. My first breeding, in a 10 gallon tank, was a raging success. If you’ve been following my spawn log, you’re probably familiar with how many healthy babies I got out of that.

This leads me to believe that breeders are short-cutting the natural courting processes in order to gain faster results.

I have Primus and Nimbus together right now. Here’s the breeding setup:


This tank is a cycled 20 gallon long, and the sponge filters have been left running. It has tons, absolutely tons of duckweed. The extra container sitting above the water there is a brine shrimp hatchery – Primus is used to me messing with it, and takes no notice. Right now, Primus and Nimbus are busy courting.

Primus has experience, so there's less confusion this time than there was with Elizabeth.

Primus sashays up to Nimbus, shaking his magnificent plumage. He flares, and he swims in a zigzag pattern. When he has her attention, he rushes back to his nest.

She watches.

He builds his bubble castle, adding more and more to the mess of bubbles that are already there. After a while, he looks for Nimbus - searching around the plants and checking behind the filter, because he hasn't forgotten - and when he finds Nimbus, he tries again. And again. FLARE, strut-strut-strut, FLARE! If she ignores him completely, he nips - but not hard. She zips away. He follows for a while, but then goes back to the business of building his nest. She turns around, and watches him dance.

Primus will not eat if he is chasing or building his nest, but during the times that he is resting, he will take a meal. Nimbus is more distractable. If shrimp or worms are dropped in front of her, she'll stop what she's doing and eat. So, I wait until she isn't busy, and then I feed her.

Both pay very little notice to me. They're concerned with other things. The Great Bringer of Food has less importance than usual.

Their behavior is progressing. Nimbus now follows Primus nearly all the way back to his nest. Sometimes, she meets him there. It's pretty clear that they will spawn. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow. But there's a chance of rain tonight, and people say that moves things along.

Once they have spawned, I will remove Nimbus. I do not have an aquarium large enough to leave her inside and still assure her safety, and if she stays in and things are peaceful, they will spawn repeatedly. I don't want another big brood of babies.

Primus will stay in the tank. I will feed him on his normal schedule, with maybe a bit of extra, and observe his behavior. It's possible that he will eat all of the fry, but I think that's unlikely. According to my research and interviews of a number of different breeders, fry eating isn't as common as we hear, and decreases with a larger tank. After all, Dad just trims the brood down _to what will fit in his environment._ That's why I'm using a 20 gallon long - there's plenty of room, so Primus shouldn't feel crowded.

As a note, fry eating also decreases when the fry are cared for by their father. In other words, leaving the daddy in leads to better parenting behaviors in the fry, creating better spawns in the future.

Let's see how this works out. It seems stupid to allow fish that are killing their offspring to breed. So why not select for fish that will do their jobs?


----------



## Nimble

That is a wonderful, well-thought, and educated hypothesis. I will continue to follow your work with closely, as it will hopefully better my own future attempts (if they ever happen) to breed Bettas. Since I will try to be breeding for the local market, I will obviously be working with a few different types, so I'll need to breed docile, sociable, ready-breeding fish, instead of aggressive egg-eaters.


----------



## Thothgirl

That was an amazing lecture! thank you for the information! I eagerly wait the outcome of this experiment.


----------



## autojoy

Loving reading all of this! I expect I will never be breeding fish, ever, but I love learning about it ^_^


----------



## hrutan

They're still flirting as of this morning, but I saw a practice wrap yesterday. :-D I won't start up a spawn log until at least a week after hatching. That way, I don't embarrass myself if Primus turns out to be a fry-eater after all.


----------



## jr591

Following!


----------



## Schmoo

Yay, (potentially) more babies!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I am of the same mind as you. I will not keep a male or female in my tank that does not demonstrate strong paternal/maternal instincts. My males are expected to actively tend and defend their nest and fry, and my females are expected to not predate fry once they leave the nest, and help in 'defence' of the nesting area in the days following a spawn. 

I've had egg eaters in the past and after several chances at getting a successful spawn, they were sold. In the wild fish with poor parenting skills would be less likely to produce living offspring, so why should I give them an opportunity to do so in captivity? 

It would be interesting to see whether male fry out of and raised by father with poor paternal instincts also demonstrate these traits. 

My wilds are much tinier than splendens and I have a pair that spawns every week in a 10 gallon tank that is full of plants. If they are ready to spawn, they will seek each other out.


----------



## Nimble

@LittleBettaFish A pair that spawns every week? Hot damn, honey. What do you do with all those babies?


----------



## hrutan

I don't believe all betta species reproduce with such ... vast numbers as Betta Splendens does.


----------



## Nimble

Ah, true. That is a good point. Still, with the time it takes for a spawn to reach maturity, even if he gets only a dozen or so per week, that's still a fairly decent number in the long run. Though, it would probably be easier to handle than dealing with 200 fry all at once.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I didn't want to take over your journal, but Nimble I don't remove my fry from the tank of their parents. I usually only average around 20 fry a spawn and they don't receive much feeding from me when young, leaving a lot of serious competition for food that helps cull down numbers. Then once fry reach a certain size they will very eagerly hunt down their younger, free-swimming siblings. I sort of have a 'survival of the fittest' policy in my tanks.


----------



## hrutan

LittleBettaFish said:


> I didn't want to take over your journal..


Discussion is _always _welcome.

I imagine if they get to a certain size, you'll remove them for sale?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Not really. I tend not to sell a lot of my fish as they are extremely hard to catch in my heavily planted tanks, I often end up with way more males than females (people usually only want pairs), the available market of people who I think capable of providing their specialised care is small, and mostly because I get too darn attached to them. 

So usually I end up with the parents and around 15-20 sub-adult/adult offspring sharing a tank.


----------



## hrutan

Well, my desk is cleaned out. My things are boxed up and ready to go. My car is loaded. My picture are saved. Potato Chip has gotten his last cleaning from me, and his new keeper has been trained and will call me if anything seems odd.

Goodbye Potato Chip. You'll be well taken care of.
Goodbye messy desk. I'll have a new one.
Goodbye incessantly chatty clerk. I like you better when you're randomly clucking like a chicken instead of spouting conspiracy theories. The fact you were more worried about getting vaccinations than vacationing in the jungles of a third world country always puzzled me...
Goodbye awesome boss. My new boss is cool, but not as cool as you.
No need to say goodbye to the awesome guy taking over Potato Chip. I'll have you over for guacamole and board games.
Goodbye Pacoima Library.

Hello Canoga Park Library. I don't know you yet, but you seem cool so far. May your challenges be interesting, but not dangerous. I don't want to get bit by a library patron, like I heard someone was earlier this year...:shock:


----------



## Tress

hrutan said:


> I don't want to get bit by a library patron, like I heard someone was earlier this year...:shock:


There be zombies in Canoga :shock:...be sure to have a survival kit under your desk!


----------



## hrutan

I can probably justify a cricket bat. I'll just tell people I play cricket.


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## hrutan

Primus and Nimbus spawned, and I don't even know when. Everything looks very peaceful. Primus is guarding the nest, and Nimbus is patrolling. If she gets close, Primus gives her a nip. Otherwise, they are aware of each other but there is no hostility.

I'll remove her before I go to bed tonight. There isn't enough room for her to stay.


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## Schmoo

Yay babies!  How exciting!

Reading all of the spawn logs, and especially your journal, makes me want to get into breeding. I'm nowhere near capable of housing all the materials, though, so alas, I will have to live vicariously through your writing.


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## hrutan

Well, the new workplace seems pretty nice so far. It isn't as much fun as my last job. The employees aren't quite as good of a match for me, but that's probably a good thing, considering that I am now the manager. The library patrons here are like the people anywhere else - some good, some bad, but mostly middling.

It's quiet here. I don't know what I feel about that.

On the fishy front, all is quiet. I removed Nimbus Saturday night. Primus is accepting food and tending to the babies diligently. There looks like plenty of little hoppers in there, but they are so hard to see that I don't really know how many. Not nearly as large of a spawn as last time, and THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT.

The largest of my older batch are getting close to an inch long. I'm about to order another shelf worth of heat tape and an additional thermostat, but I'm still going to have to cull some. :-( There just isn't enough physical space! I honestly expected to lose some even after two weeks and not have to make this kind of hard decision. I'm going to let them grow as long as I can, and hopefully be able to tell sex before I have to do the deed. The girls are all safe as long as they are able to be housed together.

I really need to update my spawn log, but haven't had the leisure time to sit down and have a good photo shoot. Hopefully tonight; managed to get the water changes all done in the morning, and there's nothing on the docket for me this evening except cleaning a few cups.

The tanks look so crowded!


----------



## Nimble

Thank goodness you live in LA, Hrutan. Your winters must be fairly mild there, even if you need a bit of heat tape and such to keep the tanks extra toasty. Here? I'd probably need to double-up on heaters if I were to keep fish during the winter.


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## hrutan

Yes, I've heard the weather has been horrific elsewhere in the States, which makes me think of something: 

Linda Olson (the Colorado transshipper) sent a batch of fish out last week, with heat packs and everything. FedEx then left the van OUTSIDE overnight. All the fish froze. I feel so bad for everyone involved. Pay the extra for Express Overnight, or don't ship in winter. Period. People are blaming Linda (filing complaints with paypal and claiming they didn't get what they ordered), when they are the ones who wouldn't pay for overnight...this is a horrible situation for everyone, but the transshipper didn't screw up. It's just winter, and shipping live fish is dangerous.

Something to think about: USPS does not guarantee _anything _other than Express Overnight. Priority Mail can take a minimum of two to a maximum of _nine _days. Priority gets "bumped" if the trucks are full in favor of Express.

Not only that, but USPS doesn't have its own airplanes. They have a contract with FedEx...their major competitor (wtf?). So FedEx would _never _leave shipping vans with USPS product outside in favor of their own... No, they'd never do something like that...


----------



## Nimble

That sucks. Her reputation being marred because her purchasers made poor decisions about how to ship livestock.

It's 25* Fahrenheit here in Louisville today. I would be wary of taking a fish home from my LFS on my bicycle, let alone trying to ship someplace several hundred miles away


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## hrutan

I didn't get to go home on time today, because I got a series of pix messages from my old coworkers. Someone had dumped some fish into Potato Chip's tank! And a ...shrimp thing?

I headed over after work with a net, and sorted things out. In the 5 gallon with Potato Chip were:
5 feeder guppies (4 male, 1 female)
2 baby cichlids
1 crayfish

The crayfish killed one of the cichlids and was eating it when I arrived. One of the guppies is hurt and I don't think he'll make it. Everyone else was still intact, including Potato Chip.

The pet store took them all of my hands, thank goodness. I could probably have made the guppies work, but definitely not the crayfish or cichlids.


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## kjg1029

oh man, why would you just put more fish in the fish tank..like just leave it how its set up! Lol, Good thing you zoomed over there to help him out lolxD


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## hrutan

I have no idea! No one saw it happen. No one noticed anyone walking around with fish bags or a bucket or anything...just...suddenly...FISH.

Members of the general public are weird.


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## Schmoo

Mein Gott... o___o


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## Tress

._. poor fish. Gosh people are weird


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## kjg1029

thats weird...maybe it was a ghost! potato chip told the ghost he was lonely!
lol
yeah, people are weird, I work in fast food, and some of the people that come in are freaks hahaxD


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## Nimble

Yeah... people can be quite strange. I work at a popular night club in the city, and in addition to a couple local homeless folks asking for money and cigarettes outside the front doors, we do get quite a few weirdos coming in and being customers as well. Some of them are amusing, most make you feel uncomfortable.


----------



## hrutan

Indeed. Sometimes they're fine, sometimes...not.


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## Nimble

Speaking of fine, how are Primus and that lovely new lady Nimbus doing? Their spawn doing well so far?


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## hrutan

Things looked good this morning. I took Nimbus out on Saturday; the tank simply isn't large enough to leave her in, even at 20 gallons. The fry are free-swimming - or at least, some of them are - and Primus is accepting food with more eagerness than he was before they hatched.

No sign of pudginess on him, and any fry he scoops up appear to be getting blown back into the nest. I'm quite pleased.

No freaking idea how many there are. Not as many as last time, but more than just a few.


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## Nimble

Well, I look forward to seeing THEIR babies in the future. Around the time they reach maturity, I should hopefully have a proper tank setup, and be in the market for a new Betta. I'll keep my eye on the coming spawn log, and will keep my eye out for any perfect 180 halfmoons you have and are willing to sell from this spawn.


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## hrutan

Thanks! Hopefully he will behave as I expect, and not eat them all. :-D


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## Nimble

Speaking of fry, how is little Tidbit doing? As well as the rest of your menagerie of Bettas? Haven't heard much about them in a while.


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## hrutan

Tidbit is growing...slowly. I still haven't decided whether I want to keep him or rehome him. His color is getting cleaner as he gets older, which is nice.

Phoenix is as fat and happy as ever. I have settled on a definite yes on breeding him. I think most of the danger inherent in the process comes from the inability to read their body language, and breeding in tanks that are too small. I want to reproduce his color, and I want his offspring. He's such a handsome fish. If I manage to get any fry out of him, I'll have to see if Seki will reappear...imagine what they would think if I sent them a picture of a "ringer" for Phoenix...only without the abuse!

Mr. Kitty's fins are regrowing after his trimming. I didn't post a tutorial or announcement when I did it, because I don't think it's wise to let teens or kids think it's easy. It was easy, but it was also quite panic inducing.
- Interesting: His tail is growing out red. Ooookay. Red fish, blue fish, what color are you, fish?

Buttercup is still slowly marbling. He was a perfect, clean cellophane-and-white butterfly. Now he's rather dirty looking. The new color appearing is black.

Titania is dancing. She's always hungry.

Catherine the Great is growing. I'm glad I decided to hold off on breeding her for a while; she's catching up in size instead of being a little squeaker. She's the one I'll breed to Phoenix.

Elizabeth is in good health, but cranky about being in a cup. Her own fault for producing so many offspring! My husband made me promise she gets her divided 10 gallon back when the babies are grown.

Nimbus, on the other hand, seems happier in her cup than in the tank. I'll probably set her up with a little 1 gallon or something. She's definitely more active than she was - I'm guessing the large open quarters were stressful.

Mystique can often be found swimming with the mollies or the pandas. She is such a social little creature.

My roommate's fish, Hades and Vladimir, are kind of doing their fish thing. Vladimir went through a little "suicidal" phase for a while, but putting a ton more plants in his tank seems to have fixed the behavior issues.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Lol <3 (nudges for pics but I know you're up to your ears in other stuff)


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## hrutan

I'll try to fit a photo update in the next couple of days. Still at work for another hour and a half, and there's water changes to do when I get home. Dem fry...phew!

Friday's my day off this week, so if nothing else there should be pics by then.


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## Nimble

So, how 'bout them pictures? :3

You know what's weird? Working the opposite schedule normal people do. I work Thursday-Sunday in the evenings, so when most people are dreading going back to work on Monday, it's the start of my 'weekend' so nobody is around to do anything. It's kind of annoying, actually.


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## hrutan

Hahaha, I am so sorry. It might seem like I chitter-chat a lot, but if I'm off work, my spare time is taken by the all-consuming, dark vortex of housework and family. Which means I haven't taken any pictures. I'm sorry. I will, I swear I will.

...I actually tried, with Phoenix. I put him in a photo tank in the hopes of getting some shots with good lighting. He flared at the mirror for a split second, then went to sulk on top of the thermometer. Rotten boy. I should've put the moss ball in there.


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## Nimble

Heh... Don't worry too much. I'm just vicariously satisfying my cravings for fishkeeping by watching you guys with your lovely setups and spawns.

I am curious to see how Tidbit has colored up, as well as the new growth from... who was it you did the surgery on? Or was that another person's journal thread?


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## hrutan

Tidbit has gotten a little cleaner and brighter, but otherwise looks very similar to when I purchased him. He's growing so slowly, some of my fry are catching up...I've heard that can happen in particular with yellows. They have slow growth, for some reason.

I don't have a picture of the new growth on Mr. Kitty. Yes, that's my boy, and even after the trimming, his fins look...odd. But, better. _Definitely _better than they were. This condition he has is quite frustrating, aesthetically, but he's energetic and builds remarkably firm, tall bubble nests.


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## Nimble

Well, if he stays small, I suppose his name is especially appropriate, then. I'm sure he'll be a happy little fella, even if he is a teeny thing.

You mentioned that the new growth was coming in red, rather than blue, if I'm not mistaken? That must've been a surprise.

What condition does he has that he needed the trimming? Tail-biting issues? Fin-rot? Or something else?


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## hrutan

Seemed to be some sort of fin melt, but it refused to clear up with repeated rounds of antibiotics and daily water changes. The ends of his fins looked as though they had been heated and then squished together like molten wax. I finally decided to trim his fins out of an effort to save his kidneys from all the medicine he was being exposed to. It looks like it's growing in red, and then changing to blue later - as though the fin grows back in layers.


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## Nimble

That does make sense, considering that a Betta's coloration deals with different layers of pigments. The blue layer is closer to the surface than the red layer, so maybe it takes longer to develop with new growth.

Yay learning!


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## Kdowg2121

Did I read trimming? As in, trimming a tail? How does that work?! o-o


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## hrutan

With a very sharp razor or cuticle scissors, generally. There are a number of different methods, but they all involve being as fast and gentle as you can, and using sterile equipment. I think I was more traumatized than the fish. :roll: Diseased fins have a chance to grow back healthy.

But, like I said - method of last resort. When everything else fails. And I didn't post my usual informative photo tutorial because I do _not _want people to think it's easy or safe and believe that because I fin trimmed, it's okay for general use - especially with, forgive me, how young many people on this forum are.


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## Nimble

Another correct answer to the question, albeit none too satisfying, is: "Carefully."

:3


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## Tress

My blue CT's regrowth came in red like his red wash. I think it's rather common

@Nimble Rofl, nice one.


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## hrutan

Here's a decent shot of Mr. Kitty. You can see he's still plenty ragged, but that fin has regrown a _ton _since it was cut...I cut it very close to his body. It still looks awful, but not as bad as it did.

Tidbit is growing, slowly. His color looks cleaner than it did, and he has very long fins for a baby his size!


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## Nimble

He's such a cute little lemon drop of a thing. Grow, Tidbit, grow!


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## hrutan

Wait, what the...

This is "him" this morning...


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## Tress

... Tidbitia?


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## hrutan

She'll (??) stay Tidbit, it's a gender-neutral name. Boy, was I surprised! I'll try to get a better shot to spot ovaries and confirm this...but I'm pretty sure "he" is actually a "she." Pronounced egg spot, breeding bars, and ovaries. Three strikes and you're out, kid.


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## Tress

Can't blame me for trying lol 
Such a long fins on little Tidbit, I don't blame you for thinking male. I swear just when you're sure, they throw a curveball at you. Silly fish. It's practice for sexing your spawn


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## Schmoo

Well, that was unexpected. xD (*Captain Obvious*)


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## Nimble

Looks like you've got yourself another yellow female to work into your breeding pool.


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## hrutan

I'd originally been thinking I'd rehome Tidbit when I rehomed the rest of the fry, since I didn't need any more pets...but not now.Let's see how she grows into those fins, shall we?

And what is it with VT females having absurdly large fins?


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## Tress

I don't know that you're talking about.. my VT fem has short fins xD


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## hrutan

Tidbit and Elizabeth have huge fins, and there's a lot of chatter on my Facebook groups about how many female VTs are being bred with ginormous finnage; it makes their male offspring more impressive. The one that has more typical fin length, Catherine, is the result of an HMPK cross, so there's no surprise that her fins are shorter.


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## Tress

I was somewhat joking, but it's interesting to know that  I had seen females on aquabid with longer fins, almost as long as the male's. I think they look lovely :3

Maybe once I move to the US I might be interested in a female from your F2 spawn. We'll see though, one plan at a time


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## hrutan

They look lovely, but male fins on a female fish are a show dis qualifier. However, right now females VT can't be shown as far as I know, so that's okay.


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## Tress

Mhm, which is understandable. Everyone is used to females being shortfinned and the males being more flashy. The peacock - peahen effect I guess you could call it.


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## Nimble

So, how was your Thanksgiving?


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## hrutan

We had the perfect Thanksgiving!

I host. We ask our guests to all bring something, so that no one person is stuck cooking all the food.

I made two turkey breasts
My roommate baked fruit tarts, apple pies, and pumpkin pie from scratch
My sister brought cornbread
My parents brought two kinds of stuffing
My in-laws brought ham, gravy, candied yams, and mashed potatoes
My grandma brought corn, rolls, and paper goods
Someone handled drinks...I can't remember who
We forgot about cranberry sauce (I'm allergic anyway)

And we all ate until we wanted to die. There was so. Much. Food.

Five of my friends that were "maybes" showed up, which was awesome. After the parents cleared out, we played some board games and hung out until it got late and people had to go home. Then we went to bed, and my roommate and I woke up at six to go shopping!

We don't normally go Black Friday shopping, because of the horror stories. But it turns out that from around 6-10 is the perfect time. The nut cases have gone home, and the normal people have overslept and haven't made it to the mall yet. I'm getting most of my stuff online, but my roommate needed to shop in person, and she managed to get most of her list handled very inexpensively. The mall was about as busy as it usually is on a weekday afternoon - except the Disney Store and Bath & Body Works, which were both terrifying.

Then we went to Lowe's and bought a refrigerator, since ours refuses to stay shut and the door has to be duct-taped closed. It was discounted by $400, so we were able to get the model we wanted instead of getting stuck with another bottom-line model.

I also picked up two 5 gallon buckets.

After we were done holiday shopping, we stopped by the LPS. I picked up marine salt - I have some live brine shrimp that aren't dying and actually seem to be multiplying despite having been forgotten in a 2 gallon fish bowl for a month, so I'm going to set up a proper culture. I also picked up 2 Ramshorns, which I am keeping in a half gallon jar and feeding in the hopes they'll breed.

Yesterday I purchased "Russian Red" daphnia from a seller on Aquabid - they are supposed to be especially hardy, able to survive in temperatures from just above freezing to 90F, so hopefully I can keep that culture alive. Daphnia seems to be _the_ ideal food for baby bettas. I also bought 95% hatch rate brine shrimp eggs, and decapped brine shrimp eggs.

Soooo...what did you do!?


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## Nimble

I worked, actually. The club was actually open Thanksgiving evening, so I got to make money, which is always nice. More money means getting my own Bettas becomes a more attainable goal.

As for beforehand? It was just a quiet day. My room-mate made an excellent turkey that was still moist and delicious this afternoon where I made sandwiches on wheat-toast for lunch for myself.

I also called and wished a Happy Thanksgiving to my family. Nothing big, just a nice, quiet dinner with my household of misfits here.


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## hrutan

That sounds really nice. There's nothing wrong with a quiet day. Oh, what type of club do you work at? :-D **sighs** I haven't been out to a club in months, and my feet are starting to itch from not dancing!


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## hrutan

Rotten boy wouldn't flare for me, this is the best I could get. He doesn't like being taken out of his 10 gallon.


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## Crossroads

Sounds like you had an awesome thanksgiving! I went over to my parents and helped dad cook dinner. He made everything except for the dessert which I made. We had turkey, spiral-cut ham, corn, broccoli, mashed potatoes with cheese and bacon bits. I made a non-traditional sweet potato casserole. It ended up kind of being like a cobbler or a crumble. Basically, I mashed the sweet potatoes and mixed them with sugar, brown sugar, cinnamon, eggs, milk, butter and vanilla extract. I layered the bottom with a cinnamon graham cracker crust (super easy to make, just mix butter and crushed graham crackers and press them down in your baking pan) then spooned in the sweet potatoes, topped that with mini marshmallows and then topped that with more crushed graham crackers. Baked it for around 30 minutes at 350 (not entirely sure cause the first probably 20 minutes were shared with the ham and turkey which was at 250 and then I put an additional timer for 15 min at 350. Things are never really precise in my family. xD we cook by eye.

Ahhh Phoenix looks so great! He's so unique looking <3


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## hrutan

Those sweet potatoes sound delicious! And, you cook your turkey at a very low temperature. How long does it usually take? I start mine at 450 for the first 30 minutes, then lower the temp to 350.

Can't wait for the kids to get jarred...I want to get Phoenix into the breeding tub. Napkin math says he's probably close to a year old, now. And, he got the thumbs up from an experienced breeder, who suggests that both the curling and the tail twist are probably damage/environmental. She said he's much better than the VT she's been seeing in recent years. Made me feel pretty good about the whole idea.


----------



## Crossroads

I was worried it wouldn't be good because it was an experimental dish that I'd never made. But my family loved it. Even got the dad seal of approval! This man does NOT eat sweets often. His idea of sweets is peanut butter just to give you an example. He went back for 3 servings. Mom went for two and so did grandma xD So I considered it a success.

Well ours was a turkey breast(precooked I think) but it and the ham still took the greater part of like 4 hours for like 3 lbs of meat.


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## hrutan

Today was spent wheeling and dealing. I stayed home to be here when our new fridge arrived, which gave me a chance to chat with a friend - the manager of our LPS.

She agreed to take 20 babies roughly every other week for sale. While selling baby bettas is not the "perfect world" solution to my problem, it means I don't have to kill them due to overcrowding. And that makes me happy. So I'm cupping 20 of the largest and training them to eat pellets and flakes so that they'll be ready on Thursday for new homes.

Once crowding is relieved, the rest of them should grow a bit faster, and then they can wait to be cupped and sold until they are of a more appropriate size. I have at least one person interested in an "instant sorority," of girls that have never been separated, plus there are others at the LPS who are also interested. My life is going to get a whole lot easier in the next couple of months.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Theoretically if you had 2 spawns at the same time and moved both A and B into the same grow out tank around day 5 would they fight? If not you could make "instant sororities" with a variety of fish


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## hrutan

You can combine them even when they are a few weeks old. I think the key is that they must be combined before the onset of aggression, and then not separated again.


----------



## Kdowg2121

Where do you get your betta cups? I've googled with no success.


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## hrutan

They are just deli cups with lids, I cut holes in the lids. I bought mine from Smart and Final in the deli supplies section.


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## hrutan

I got my daphnia culture today, and I was very excited. The cats were going nuts over some fish food packed in the box, so I moved the box into my room and left it on my bed until I had time to deal with it.

...Only to discover that one of the cats managed to puncture one of the bags when I wasn't looking. The water soaked through the box, through my blankets, and into my mattress.

Not so thrilled, actually. At least very little daphnia seems to have made it into my bedding, and there was plenty left for the culture.


----------



## Tress

Oh man, that sucks. I know your pain though. I had my fish food hidden up on a shelf in something and my kitten found it. I caught him as he was on my desk with it, so I moved it waaaaaay out of their reach - only to come back later to pellets all over the floor.


----------



## hrutan

I traded 22 9 week old baby bettas for a container of algae wafers and 2 panda cories. The pet shop only -had- two, and when I anxiously said there were too few and they could die of loneliness, she threw them into the deal effectively for free.

Mystique is saying hello to the new arrivals.


----------



## Nimble

It's weird to think of something dying of loneliness... It must be such a scary way to die.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, I think so, too. I told her if she ends up with any more "strays" of panda cories, to let me know and I will take them off her hands. After the velvet outbreak I haven't lost any more, but I was down to 6 (too few in my opinion). These two bring me up to 8, but I won't really be happy until I have 12-15.


----------



## Nimble

You desire to acquire ALL the panda cories?


----------



## Crossroads

Cories are amazing things to acquire, I wish I had space for more, but my sorority is hitting the point of being overstocked as is. I also wish to acquire all the cories xD I think I could honestly have like a 100 gallon tank just full of like different shoals of cories and be happy


----------



## hrutan

Yes.


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## Nimble

I was waiting for that to show up.


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## hrutan

I live but to serve.


----------



## hrutan

Funds permitting, some time maybe next year we're going to have to upgrade the 75 gallon. I'm thinking we'll need a six foot tank.

...Toothless is growing.

That will leave me with an empty 75 gallon, which I'm going to have to figure out what to do with. I may have to sell it, but if I don't, I'm thinking...maybe goldfish? That'll let me have a more attractive tank than if I used it for an additional grow-out, although having a 75g grow-out tank has a certain amount of appeal to it. I could put gravel at the bottom and live plants to make it pretty.

Hmmm.


----------



## Nimble

I'd say use it as a grow-out. If you're going to be doing a lot of Betta breeding in the next few years, you'll need the extra space to keep them.


----------



## hrutan

Well, I'm trying to keep it to what will fit in the rack, due to space concerns. Assuming my husband will agree to me having another big tank in the living room / kitchen area (I have a spot in mind that he _might _agree to just because the area collects mess), I'm going to have to figure out how to make it beautiful, while still keeping it easy to clean. He's not thrilled by how bare and utilitarian the tanks look, and you've gotta accommodate your family on these things to keep the peace.

There's also concerns about whether I can get aged water into that tank for water changes. 75 gallons is pretty huge, and the only way I manage my water changes is using a python connected to the sink. If this all comes about, I'll have to do a series of water tests using fresh tap and aged tap and see if there are any PH swings over a 24 hour period of time. That'll let me know if I _really _need aged water or not. I haven't bothered with that right now because the water aging tank also has a heater to get the water to temperature, which is convenient, if not strictly speaking necessary. After all, I can adjust the tap if I have to.

This is all speculation, of course.


----------



## Schmoo

I want to second the grow-out tank...but 75 gallons would be nice for some goldfish...


----------



## hrutan

Goldfish are pretty, too. Our house is a good temperature year-round for them, so they wouldn't need a heater, just a good strong filter and whatever else goldfish need.


----------



## Nimble

The thing is, though... Do you need something more pretty, or do you need something for your future projects? You gotta weigh out both options.


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## hrutan

If it was just me in the house, I'd use it for grow-out. But it isn't, and things that go in the common rooms need to be things that make everyone happy - or at least, not unhappy. My husband by and large lets me and my roommate get away with whatever he likes, whuch means when he does express a preference, he gets accomodated.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I really am leaning on the goldfish side. It's something new, (right?). It's something that can also light up a room  I do have goldfish myself and I prefer the fancy tail types. Very elegant and soothing, but it's up to you. Something new is a new beginning 

The cons though... They poop so much. Haha they do make up for it with chubby cheeks and fancy features  Their long flowing tails are also a very outstanding feature!


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## Nimble

I may just be a little biased because I've never really been fond of goldfish. D:


----------



## VivianKJean

I think goldfish are gorgeous. Some day when I have the space I'd love to get a 55 or 75 gallon tank and get some butterfly telescope goldfish. (after I get the space for my dream puffer fish that is lol). I think goldfish would be a great idea.


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## hrutan

My goldfish idea got nixed, oh well. Apparently the spot that I had in mind was already reserved for another project, and that's the only spot it'd fit. And, as my husband said,

"You have more than two hundred fish. Enough is enough."


----------



## Schmoo

Enough is NEVER enough!


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## Nimble

You'll only have two-hundred for another couple of months... at which point you'll probably wind up with another few hundred again. :3


----------



## hrutan

Hahah, yeah.


----------



## hrutan

It's been a long time since I updated...I apologize. I got a promotion and have spent most of my mental bandwidth taking care of fish babies and learning my new job.

I had a lot of fun yesterday, having some of my girlfriends over. One of the ladies is very excited, waiting for one of my fish...I told her she needed to pick one out so that it didn't go to the pet shop in my shipment.

Her eyes went like this :shock:

"That one. Wait, no. Maybe that one. No...I really did mean the first one. Can we catch him? Is that a boy? How do you expect me to choose from all of these? They're all so wonderful!"

We managed to hunt the boy down she had her eye on - he's a wily fellow and was still in the grow-out tank.

It was so fun to see how excited my friend was, and also pretty cute to see her all anxious about whether she'd picked the right fish. She and her husband have already bought a nice 5.5 gallon aquarium kit, and they'll be ready once they get a heater. That's one fish that's going to a nice home.

My roommate, who has a sharp eye, also spotted a very unique looking female in the grow-out and asked to keep her. Who am I to say no? This girl is beautiful! I'll have to get a better photo, later.



Today 50 fish are getting packed up and sent to the pet store. I had to go through all of my jarred babies and inspect them for "defects" or problems that wouldn't get in the way of them being good pets - minor tail kinks and things. Anything with a tail kink went on the "sell" shelf.

I had to euthanize one girl with severe SBD; she was jarred in the hopes she'd recover, but she was a sinker and couldn't swim properly. I also euthanized a male who only floated. I don't have enough space to save room for the hard cases...while there are people who have soft spots and would like to adopt "special needs" fish, the painful truth is that there _so many_ healthy fish that will die without a good home that it isn't right or ethical to save the sick ones. I am not going to kill the strong to save the weak, not when I can't care for all of them.

That might be different in a smaller spawn. The math changes when you have this many.

After this shipment, I start jarring males, then females, and I don't stop until I'm out of room. The fish will be evaluated for health, each jar will be assigned a number, and then I'll take pictures to put them up for sale. The photos will be the hardest part...I do have a photo tank, and I'm starting to get pretty good at this whole picture taking thing, but it can still take a good 10 or 15 minutes to get a decent shot of one fish.

I've had to be quite firm with a few people sending me PMs. They obviously have no idea of how much work they're asking me to do when they want to see "pics of some females" before I've made the sale thread. No, this isn't targeted at any one person...because there are like three of them.

Interestingly, the people on Facebook have been better about understanding "I'm not ready to sell yet," but both of the groups I'm a member of are breeder sites, so I suspect everyone's been where I am right now.

Just so you know, baby bettas grow on sweat.


----------



## hrutan

My big, handsome gold molly male died last night. I'd pulled him from his tank two days ago for fin rot and had him on antibiotics. The nitrates were a little high in the big tank but not a disaster. This morning, he was belly up.

All I can guess is maybe he had some underlying health problem, or a bad reaction to the antibiotics.


----------



## Nimble

At least his suffering is over.

Speaking of Mollies, how are those little baby ones doing? Are they all still swimming around?


----------



## kevinap2

hrutan said:


> My big, handsome gold molly male died last night. I'd pulled him from his tank two days ago for fin rot and had him on antibiotics. The nitrates were a little high in the big tank but not a disaster. This morning, he was belly up.
> 
> All I can guess is maybe he had some underlying health problem, or a bad reaction to the antibiotics.


Funny, I had a similar situation Thursday. I woke up, and went to feed my fish. I went to one of my divided tanks and fed one of my males, then moved over to the other's side of the tank. I saw him sitting on a plant near the surface. I gently tapped the glass to see if he would respond... he didn't. Dead. He was a halfmoon that I think wanted to be a crowntail like the guy on the other side of the divider, because he bit his tail into shreds no matter what I did. No fin rot, though... at least, not that I saw. He was eating and acting normally the night before. It's a bummer when that happens, though I doubt there was much to be done to prevent it in either of our cases. :/

I did take the opportunity to remove the other guy from the tank and bleach the heck out of it, mainly to kill the ramshorn outbreak I had going in there but also because I don't know what killed him.


----------



## hrutan

A better disinfectant is 91% iso-whatsis alcohol, as an FYI. Some bacteria have a waxy coating that bleach can't penetrate. I am sorry for your loss. 

The molly babies are doing great! It's funny to see their mixed heritage come out. For example, one of the adult females is gray, and one of the males is spotted...and two of the babies are gray with spots. Haha.


----------



## TripleChrome

Aw. Poor molly.

On a different note, do you have any recent pictures of Phoenix?


----------



## hrutan

Today is a "stay at home at enjoy working on tanks" day, so I'll try to get some while I am shooting everyone else.

I have to label eleventy-billion jars and photo young bettas, anyway.


----------



## BeautifulBettaFishies

hrutan said:


> Today is a "stay at home at enjoy working on tanks" day, so I'll try to get some while I am shooting everyone else.
> 
> I have to label eleventy-billion jars and photo young bettas, anyway.


Cool  I was just wondering if you were using deli cups or something else?


----------



## hrutan

Deli cups. They are the cheapest and most efficient option.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

hrutan said:


> Today is a "stay at home at enjoy working on tanks" day, so I'll try to get some while I am shooting everyone else.
> 
> I have to label eleventy-billion jars and photo young bettas, anyway.


Good luck =3 I promise to enjoy the results of your suffering


----------



## Nimble

Hooray for suffering! Well, not so much the suffering part, but from the creativity and productivity that result from it!


----------



## hrutan

I made Primus a new tank using a nice 2.5 I won in a raffle. I was nervous because it came with an HOB filter, and Primus has big, heavy fins.

The first thing he did was go play in the current. He seemed to enjoy it a great deal. The water's a bit cloudy, but that should go away soon enough.


----------



## Tress

"Why is she floating rose petals in his tank? Oh wait... that's from the sand... heh"

That's a lovely little tank!


----------



## Nimble

I see that skull is still hanging around.


----------



## hrutan

That's the skull we pulled from Hades's tank after Goliath died, I think. It smelled, too, but no harm seems to have been done to Hades.


----------



## hrutan

The day before yesterday, when I was at the pet shop, I saw a beautiful carrot-orange VT for sale. He was "fainting" at the bottom of the cup, despite a recent water change (yes, they change the water there) and when I showed him to the manager, she said she'd take him home and give him a bit of love. He's recovered - seems he was just too cold - so I will be taking him home soon.

This is pretty exciting, because as far as I could tell he had no or very little iridescence. And POW was he orange! I'll be crossing him to Nimbus, most likely, since she has very good form and should improve his fins in the next generation.

It was also very exciting to see my babies for sale at the shop. That was a weird and special thing, like "OMG! Look at those! I made those! Don't they look great!?"


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Aww <3 pheonix junior

Name suggestions: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamola 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalerion
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ababil_(mythology)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basan
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercinia 
(Other mythical birds)


----------



## hrutan

Basan has a nice ring to it. I was also thinking maybe Cygnus.


----------



## Nimble

Pretty Orange fella, huh? If nothing looks yummy out of the Primus/Nimbus spawn, I might grab one from Orange VT and Nimbus if that happens soon.


----------



## hrutan

Well, he's still down as of this morning. Cute guy, though. He can swim and flare; I'm carding him right now to reduce stress but flaring him at females a few times a day to give him exercise. No more than a few minutes at a time so he doesn't get exhausted. SBD isn't usually genetic so I am willing to give it a shot, but this will be a challenge, and I don't see him being able to nest tend.

It's a good thing I practiced artificial hatching.


----------



## hrutan

I let my roommate "tiebreak" on the name, and she settled on Cygnus.

Here he is, in all his fainting swan glory...sorry for the cruddy lighting. I didn't have time to do more than snap a quick shot.

As awful as it looks, he does seem to be improving. Either that, or he's figured out who the Great Bringer of Food is, because he was up and dancing this morning before he collapsed again. And he is nesting as hard as he can for the ladies. :lol:

I am feeding him half rations and carding him. He gets uncarded for 5-15 minutes 3 times a day to help him exercise and build muscle.


----------



## Tress

Aww <3 He's such a trooper, trying so hard for the ladies :3 I hope he can recover enough to get some lovely babies from him!


----------



## Nimble

Gotta work that fishy body!


----------



## hrutan

New photos from after work. The goofus has started flaring when I approach the rack. He's also elevated off the cup bottom, now.


----------



## Nimble

That IS a nice orange color. He'll make a lovely pair with Nimbus, and not to mention that it should be a fairly smooth spawning for the pair, if he's a little sluggish, and not too aggressive. Glad he found a good fishy parent with you.


----------



## hrutan

I'm very excited. This much improvement was more than I dared hope.


----------



## Nimble

I may have to snag one of his offspring from you, if I don't get one from the Primus x Nimbus spawn. Which, once I actually get the fish I ordered in, I'll start up a journal and a spawn log when that happens. I'll be starting with a black-bodied fish, so it might be stepping backwards if I get another fish with black geno.


----------



## hrutan

I thought you preferred HM?


----------



## Nimble

I do prefer HM, but as happened with the Primus x Lady Elizabeth spawn, some DeT will likely pop up out of that, and I can cross back to the mother/father of my own to improve the finnage back to HM in the long term.


----------



## Nimble

Of course, all of this is entirely hypothetical. We'll see when the time comes. He is still, very, very handsome. Cygnus... that's a constellation, isn't it? The Swan?


----------



## hrutan

Yes, for some reason we're going with a mythical bird theme for the orange boys. Haha.


----------



## hrutan

Last night I got all excited about a female unique in my current batch. I took pictures of her, then put her in a jar with the rest of the juvies. I took a short video displaying her next to her siblings so that I could see the difference in color, then I settled down at my computer and posted about her on Facebook. When I was getting ready for bed, I couldn't resist one last peek.

There was an empty jar (lid intact) where my pretty little girl had been.

WHAT. I thought she looked like she was fading away, but this was ridiculous! I looked all over the floor. I moved all the jars and checked the shelves, I peered behind the rack and used a flashlight so the bright light would shine on scales...NOTHING. Had I made a mistake? Had she never made it into her jar?

Not in the photo tank. Not in the sink or garbage disposal (phew!). Not on the floor. I crawled, literally crawled around in the kitchen peering under appliances in case she'd jumped and flopped around...Nothing.

I was starting to wonder if I had become a victim of the mysterious "Vanishing Fry" syndrome. Anyone had that happen? I've heard stories of whole tanks of fry disappearing, but I'd put that down to very tiny fry literally dissolving between mass death and discovery.

Then I checked the time stamp on my photos and determined that the girl had, indeed, made it into my bedroom. She had been on the rack, in her jar, with the lid on.

I apologized to my poor husband, who was trying to sleep, turned the lights back on, and kept looking...and found her in the water aging tank.

Somehow the little (*ahem*) had jumped through her feeding hole, out her cup, flopped across the heat tape, slipped through the cardboard layers of the shelving unit, down through another shelf, past the growout tanks, and landed directly into the one place where she would both live and do no harm. And since she's nearly transparent, I couldn't see her in the back.

Moral of the story? NEVER give up!

...and punch smaller feeding holes.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Omg was that your super red loss girl? Thank goodness she is ok!


----------



## hrutan

What's crazy is this is what she jumped out of...she looks to be about an inch long, body only, and would have had to squish her fins to her body and go at just the right angle to get out.

Also, my cat will not leave me alone this morning.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

o_o well leapin' lizards... I mean fishes...


----------



## Nimble

Talk about a jumper. That reminds me of that video of a male Betta jumping down the waterfalls of a biotope to get to the bottom pool in the set. Good that she's alright.


----------



## hrutan

That video was really cool, hehe.


----------



## Nimble

Be thankful that the cat didn't have a snack of the girl. When I was younger, our cat made a snack of one of the females that jumped from our sorority tank.


----------



## hrutan

I've had two jumpers, the cats haven't caught on yet.


----------



## Nimble

You either have lucky fish, or a lazy cat. Either way, good for that.

I'm getting all jittery waiting for my own fish to finally get here.


----------



## hrutan

Cygnus is up and swimming properly this morning. Well, his tail is a wee tiny bit lower than his head, to be honest. I can't trust his swim bladder to stay in tiptop shape or keep him on short rations and expect him to be strong forever, so he's been set up with Nimbus (cupped) in a 2.5. Flaring him at her 3 times a day for several days has made her start doing the ol' duck and shimmy-shake.

Fancy digs, right? :lol: Only the best hotel for the happy couple. She's in a cup with topped off water level, so when she's decided she's ready, she'll jump out.


----------



## Nimble

The honeymoon suite is all set. Let's hope some sparks fly~

No IAL? Any particular reason?


----------



## hrutan

That big brown oval on the left is IAL, it just looks funny because of how it was pressed.


----------



## Nimble

Oh! I see it now. I was about to say... Need them aphrodisiacs.


----------



## hrutan

My only real concern is Nimbus doesn't seem to have what we'd call a "high wattage" bulb in her noggin.


----------



## Nimble

Is she one of your 'special' Bettas?

Something something, blond joke, something something. (My hair IS blond.)


----------



## hrutan

I was hoping an experienced female would help speed the process along, but this girl takes stereotypes to an extreme!


----------



## Nimble

I'm sure she'll catch on eventually. She's done it before, so it means she knows how.

Is she nice and eggy this time around, or do you expect another small spawn?


----------



## hrutan

She looks eggy to me...


----------



## aurielssong

subscribing


----------



## hrutan

Pulled her out, at least for now. She's just not showing interest, and Cygnus is getting tired. This isn't a time critical spawn and I have another good yellow female to try on Saturday night / Sunday. Otherwise it can wait a week while I up their feeding. It's tough because I don't dare stuff Cygnus to the gills like I would a male without health problems.

Also, Cygnus is pretty determined to hang out under his nest. I can't see any eggs, but a couple of days' break will let me know for sure whether there was a stealth spawn or not.


----------



## hrutan

Cygnus wasn't hanging around his nest after I took the girl out last night, so I fed her well and put her back in. Left her in a cup topped off with water, figuring she'd jump out when she got serious.

Came home to a nest full of eggs. WEEE!


----------



## Schmoo

Yay!


----------



## Nimble

Woohoo! Don't you just love when a plan comes together?

Good job, Hrutan~ You are an inspiration.


----------



## hrutan

My family is asleep. My family is asleep?! No one needs anything, because they're unconscious? And...my phone has charge! WOO HOO.

Time to set up the photo tank!


----------



## Tress

Yay  Babies AND more pictures!


----------



## hrutan

The adoption thread in the Marketplace has been updated. Also, I wish people would read. I know that's a cranky librarian thing to say, but seriously.


----------



## Tress

I don't blame you there. Drives me nuts when things are laid out, plain as day, and people still ask those questions.


----------



## TripleChrome

hrutan said:


> The adoption thread in the Marketplace has been updated. Also, I wish people would read. I know that's a cranky librarian thing to say, but seriously.


I did read the adoption thread, but sadly don't have enough money for the shipping. I had $20, but used it for stuff for my fish. If I had it still with some more, I would get one.


----------



## hrutan

Don't worry about it. There will always be more fish.


----------



## Schmoo

I hear you there, Hrutan. >_<; With my job, I have to send out a lot of informational e-mails to new subscribers, and the number of "when will I get" e-mails I get is so frustrating. I TOLD YOU IN THE E-MAIL.


----------



## hrutan

It frustrates me because, even though I know it isn't intentional, it feels like a respect issue. Especially if you have to repeat yourself. After all, if the person cared what you're saying, they'd have read the whole message the first time...

It's different if it's verbal. You can't refer back to sound.


----------



## hrutan

On a more cheerful subject, Cygnus is being diligent. I haven't seen one egg down on the floor yet, and the eggs are wiggling in the nest like little jumping beans.


----------



## Schmoo

Yay Cygnus! Aside from daddy duties, how's he doing? :3


----------



## hrutan

He is swimming properly. As long as I'm careful to never overfeed him, this may have been a temporary episode. :-D


----------



## kevinap2

Glad to hear he's doing better.

Not reading instructions is also a teacher thing, btw.


----------



## hrutan

Don't I know it... my husband's a teacher. The things he tells me sometimes - you couldn't pay me enough for that job! At least as a librarian, I only get people that want to be here.


----------



## Tress

Wiggle wiggle  So glad he's doing well and being a good daddy!


----------



## hrutan

I'm tickled pink. Lots of little dangly tails this morning. Looks like a good, healthy spawn. I'll start a log once Dad's out...I think this time I am going to keep everyone in the 2.5 unless it looks too crowded, and see how well that works when no one has to travel far for food.

Also, I'm tickled even MORE pink because the aquarium shop down the street sells live blackworms so I can start a culture.


----------



## Nimble

:O Live Blackworms? You lucky lady, you.


----------



## hrutan

Yep! I'm hustling over there right after work and picking some up. They're supposed to be pretty easy to culture - if you can get them in the first place.


----------



## Nimble

Sounds like a plan. Maybe if/when I get the chance in the future to rescape Angostura's and Smirnoff's tanks, I'll go for some.

Blackworms are fairly sizable, aren't they?


----------



## hrutan

I'm not sure how big they get, but they can certainly be cut up. This is the website that I'm referring to for culturing instructions: http://aquariumtidings.com/how-to-culture-blackworms-black-worms/

EDIT: If it works out well, I'll of course add culturing blackworms to the breeding DIY thread.


----------



## DaytonBetta

I'm looking forward to hearing about your blackworm project. The fish I'm thinking about getting typically love them, from what I've read. Do you have a cone feeder? That seems to keep them neat when you give them to the fish.

Congratulations on another successful spawn. You are really going great guns!


----------



## Nimble

I can imagine fresh, live blackworms would help very much to either conditioning an adult breeding pair, or for helping juveniles to grow big and strong. Good information is always helpful, miss hrutan. I expect good things from you, as always.


----------



## Tress

If I remember correctly, Aqua Aurora keeps live blackworms, so if you need any tips I'm sure she'll be glad to help


----------



## Nimble

Gotta make sure the fish are well-fed, after all. I can imagine a delicious snack of blackworms would get any Betta's blood flowing.

I'll stalk his/her thread for a bit, see what's up.


----------



## hrutan

Now, something to keep in mind with blackworms, is you don't know what they've been fed. I am going to treat this culture JUST LIKE quarantining a new fish...a lot of places feed them fish waste instead of good nutritious and CLEAN food like spirulina or cucumber. As a result, many fish keepers have ended up with serious bacterial infections in their fish after feeding blackworms. So I am not going to even attempt to feed my fish with them until I've done 3 weeks of bi-weekly rinsing and water changes, and kept them on a good, clean diet.


----------



## Nimble

Attah girl, hrutan. You're an excellent fish-keeper, and aim to mimic you in my own future endeavors.

Not perfectly, of course. I plan on finding what works for me, rather than perfect mimicry of you... but you get my general meaning. You do good things.


----------



## Tress

+1 Nimble. 

Good plan, I wouldn't have even thought of that but I can see it now. Urgh, stores do anything to cut costs, wont they?


----------



## hrutan

No, it's not a cost-cutting measure...it's that blackworms are often found in those conditions, feeding off salmon waste and the like, and therefore people are misinformed about what they are able to eat.


----------



## Tress

Ah, makes sense.


----------



## hrutan

*sighs*

I thought I was just hung over, but a hangover doesn't last this long. Crapola, I'm getting sick.


----------



## hrutan

Realizing that the previous comment directly contradicts what I said in Nimble's journal about "no hangover," I had posted that before I ate lunch. lol.


----------



## Nimble

Well, it IS flu season, so you'd better be wary of that.

Drink a little more water, just to make sure. I've had the nausea portion of a hangover last for two days in the past. But if you are actually ill, take care of yourself. Make sure you're well enough to take care of those baby fry, and do all the generic 'ill' things to do. Drink soup, take Day/NyQuil, etc.


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I dragged my feet about getting my flu shot, and whatever's going around locally starts in the stomach. Hopefully it's a hangover and I'll feel better in the morning. I'm on probation for the next six months and would rather not be sick on a Friday or Monday! It looks bad.


----------



## kevinap2

According to my school district, the flu shots they gave out this year were not particularly effective against the strains that seem to be going around. So even if you had gotten one, it might not have helped you all that much.

Hope you kick this soon, hrutan.


----------



## Nimble

Feeling any better this morning, Hrutan?


----------



## hrutan

Just as iffy as last night, but no worse. Feeling kind of crappy, but I'm up and at work, which is what I wanted the most out of today. Well, that and getting an oil change, which is proving considerably more difficult than anticipated.

Note: When buying a new car, don't trust the dealer when he says you can get your oil changed at your local mechanic. Look it up yourself. Sure, my local shop can change the oil...but they can't change the oil filter, which is propitiatory. This makes it a big problem when the dealer's service department doesn't call you back multiple times. Grr.


----------



## Nimble

I wouldn't know anything about dealing with cars. I've never owned a car, so I've been using a bicycle to get around most places since I was 16. Anywhere I can't get to on a bike, I use the bus, which is much more convenient now that I live in a proper city.


----------



## hrutan

Bus travel in the suburbs of Los Angeles is...daunting, to say the least, haha. This is my first time owning a new car. It's always been hand-me-down vehicles, which come with their own problems, but driving one way or another is pretty unavoidable, around here. I dream of working close enough to bike there!


----------



## kevinap2

What do you drive? I've never heard of a proprietary oil filter... but I only do minor stuff for my friends, so I really have only worked on the more mainstream car brands.


----------



## hrutan

2013 Chevy Spark. Happily, the Jiffy Lube was able to get it, finally, and right along the time they said they would - 2 years after release.


----------



## Nimble

Ah, yeah. If I lived in the suburbs, I would need a car. However, I live in Downtown(Old) Louisville, and I work there as well, so everything I need is within a few miles of my house, which is nothing on a bike. It's a 10 minute walk to the grocery store, and 20 minutes on my bike to work, if I hit all the lights.


----------



## hrutan

I have a little bit of envy, but only a little bit. Not having to interact with as many people makes up for the long drives.


----------



## Nimble

Yeah, downtown rent is a little higher than suburbs, too. But I like living in the city, and I certainly don't mind being within biking distance of my LFS, either... even if it's the (local)chain store, rather than the family-owned one, and even if I don't like their new freshwater manager.


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, rent in Downtown LA or Hollywood is more than a mortgage on a 3 bedroom house out in the San Fernando Valley, and the only thing we go to in the city proper are the clubs, and we haven't even done _that _since July. My husband sprained his knee and has been out for the count for a while...although hopefully we'll be resuming our old schedule this month. My niece is turning 18, and we want to take her out on the town a bit.


----------



## Nimble

Let's hope your hubby feels better soon, and that your niece enjoys her 18th. My little brother just turned 18 in November, but sadly I couldn't take him out to any clubs... not like he'd enjoy it anyway. Oh well, he's having a blast in a country where he's old enough to drink at 18, and he had a good New Year, which is good for him.


----------



## hrutan

The more mainstream of the goth/industrial clubs in Hollywood is 18+, happily. Then we get to find out if our budding young gothling is too shocked for words, or finally feels like she fits in.


----------



## Nimble

Hah! Good to hear. The club I work at is a 21+ club, but we allow 18-to-20-year-olds in as long as they have a 21+ chaperone.


----------



## hrutan

Ours are all-or-nothing, if they club admits 18+ than the individuals too young for alcohol get a wristband or X marked on their hands, but there's no rules about chaperones. There _should _be, that sounds like a fantastic idea. Seems like a way to keep the kids safe before they learn all their survival skills. We watch our herd of young ladies like hawks...and have heard some stories about how their same-age "friends" didn't, leaving a couple of the more vulnerable girls to fend for themselves.

Idiotic behavior doesn't go away with age, but at least it diminishes.


----------



## Nimble

We do the wristbands and X's as well, but the waiver and chaperones allow us to claim non-responsibility for their stupid mistakes.


----------



## hrutan

Status report on black worms: I tossed the culture out, tank and all. It smelled unpleasant, therefore wasn't workable in my bedroom. Yuck.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have better luck keeping them in the fridge. I did have a culture of them running for a while in my bedroom, but I believe they reproduce/divide fairly slowly compared to other live food cultures, and I've always found it easier to just purchase them as needed. However, I only feed blackworms sparingly nowadays, as I found a diet with them as the staple gave me very thick bodied fish. I'm not sure how many fish you would actually be needing to feed.

Also they smell absolutely foul when dead/dying. I have stunk the fridge up when I've forgotten about a culture and left it too long between water changes.


----------



## hrutan

They didn't smell completely horrible, but once I noticed the odor, I couldn't unsmell it. Not as bad as an open carton of microworms by a long shot.


----------



## Nimble

Oh well, there goes that plan, I guess.

And yeah, I can imagine a few reasons you wouldn't want something like that smelling up the bedroom. >.> A few reasons.


----------



## hrutan

*A bit of an off-topic rant*

As some of you may know, I am an author. Nothing big name, I only have one book out (in e-book format), but there you go. We all have to start somewhere. 

Right now I am trying to finish up book #2, and you know what?

I.
Hate.
This.
Book.

I can't figure out what is bugging me, but I've been dragging my feet something fierce. We're at "No, I don't have time to write, the bathroom floor needs to be scrubbed with a toothbrush!" level of foot-dragging.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as writer's block. That's an excuse that really means that you don't _want _to be writing. Write a paragraph of nonsense. Go ahead, do it. Force yourself to write, and find out how long it stays nonsense. Unless you make a concentrated effort to continue to write gibberish, it's going to start following a thread sooner or later. That's why there's no such thing as writer's block!

Sooo...why am I not writing?_ I don't want to continue this story._ There's something wrong with it, and it's rubbing me all wrong.

This is driving me nuts, because I wanted to have this finished six months ago. I _need _to get it done, because the story arc deserves to be completed. The characters (and readers) need their closure before I move on to the next victi-**ahem** I mean, hero.

Just had to rant a little.

Oh, by the way. Apparently I wasn't hung over, OR sick. Jello shots just upset my stomach. Which is an unkind twist of fate.


----------



## Kdowg2121

I hate when I get that feeling. I do my own comics. From writing to inking. I rarely get passed the script before I get turned off to the idea of my story. 
What's your book about? I'd like to check it out.


----------



## hrutan

Silver Bound - Holly Rutan, through Musa Publishing. You can find it on Amazon / Barnes and Noble / Smashwords. Urban fantasy with a bit of romance, so some adult content.

Here's a link.. for some reason, I am truly awful at making one-sentence synopses. Haha.

http://www.amazon.com/Silver-Bound-Holly-Rutan-ebook/dp/B00JGCEZ0E


----------



## Nimble

It was probably just you drank a little too much, so your mucosal lining in your stomach was thinned, which caused the iritation in your tummy. That's happened to me before... usually when I drink too many sweet cocktails too quickly in one night. Gotta space them out with a bit of ginger ale, and a handful of pretzels.


----------



## hrutan

I can drink a fair quantity without being ill, usually. My suspicion is the jello fooled me into eating less. Sugary drinks are dangerous in general, adding "solid" to them makes them even more sneaky.


----------



## Nimble

Hehe, that's why my signature drink at the club, the Fruit Viking, is called that. Because it's sweet, sour, and fruity, but it will ravage you if you don't expect it.


----------



## hrutan

Bwahaha. I like it.


----------



## Nimble

Most people do. It's pretty damn tasty, and I've gotten many compliments on it. I have to keep the recipe a secret, though.


----------



## hrutan

Tonight I got rid of the Brine Shrimp Culture that Would Not Die. I never used it, really. It was too difficult to harvest. So, I set up a little hatchery and put some eggs in it for my new set of babies.

Cygnus's brood is doing well. I can't wait to get everyone moved in to a nice 10g in a week or so. They have a snail putt-putting around in there, cleaning up, and there's lots of little eyeballs.

I impulse bought a little black and orange female from the pet shop when I met with an adopter. She doesn't have a name. Nothing's quite spoken to me yet; I suspect something will come to me when I don't have so many fish on my shelves. Apparently she'll go well with both orange AND black, which has me excited to breed her. She has to wait for me to get Red Loss Boy and Ghost Girl on a hot date with each other, though.

Work is tough. I've decided I need to talk to my doctor about getting back on ADHD medication, because my distractability and forgetfulness have been impacting my quality of work. It's a shame, I've been off meds for 6 years, but if you don't outgrow a developmental disability by your low 20's, it's not going to just go away on its own. The meds work, and I know this, but it's embarrassing to have to ask for help. I feel like, hey, I'm 33. Shouldn't I _not _be like a 6 year old chasing a balloon through an amusement park?

Apparently not. If you've ever seen The Last Unicorn, the Butterfly is my brain.


----------



## Tress

Ooh, new girl sounds pretty :3 can't wait to see her.


----------



## aurielssong

she sound pretty! pics!!


----------



## Schmoo

I'll have to check your book out!  Sorry to hear that you're having difficulty with your current project, though. I know how that goes. 

Congrats on your new addition! Black and orange sounds pretty. :3 Can't wait to see her! The name Sally popped into my head automatically (from The Nightmare Before Christmas).


----------



## BlueInkFish

If you don't have pics your not telling the truth!!!


----------



## hrutan

lol, "Pics or it didn't happen," huh? I'll try to carve out an hour or so tonight. Taking decent pictures is a lesson in patience and practice. The boys in particular are hard to get good pictures of, since you want them to flare, but flaring makes them get nuts and zip all over the place. The girls are a lot easier...most of the time.

Also, I swear, if you want your betta to poop, put him in a photo tank, give him a male to flare at, and aim a camera at him. He's sure to offer you a gift and spoil the picture.


----------



## BlueInkFish

well, I don't have patience so hurry up and give us some pics! We demand it now!!!


----------



## hrutan

Well, you'll have to wait until I have time. It's been a long time since I had hours to burn on nothing in particular. High school/college kids have no idea how good they have it.


----------



## Nimble

You speak truth, Hrutan. You speak truth.


----------



## Schmoo

Amen to that. I work from home, and I still have no idea what free time is...


----------



## hrutan

The fish breeding was like a tactical nuke to the tiny amount of free time that I stole from job #2. I figured, if I'm always working, I might as well be working on something I WANT to work on.


----------



## Bettabubble3

Did you finish the 75 gallon? Sorry I just found this thread and read every comment for the first 20 pages and skimmed the rest but I dont see anything. I love this thread!


----------



## hrutan

Yes, this is my innacurately named journal, haha. The 75 gallon is doing well, with a thriving population of mollies, one enormous (and growing larger) pleco, and a tiny fleet of Panda cories.


----------



## Nimble

Speaking of Plecos, I had the change to buy a baby (about 3-4cm in length) Bristlenose Pleco today... I was very tempted to, but I decided on getting the Otos. Do you think that was a wise decision?


----------



## aurielssong

I got a new bumblebee pleco the other day, he is so cute!


----------



## hrutan

The Bristlenose plecos are very cute and small, and will do well in a 20 gallon. A 10 gallon is pushing it a little bit. I don't know a thing about Otos, though.


----------



## aurielssong

oto's are very! very! touchy when it comes to the water quality. I only have 2 right now, I did have 5, the other three were in my 55 when it failed. but the two i have are still kicking and very happy. you just need to make sure the water stays stable


----------



## BlueInkFish

Haha, I do have free time but I put it to "bad" use XD!!! For example people study for a test during free time... I'm on this forum for free time LOL! But anyways. Pics?? XD jk jk take your time my friend!


----------



## kevinap2

My blue VT male will poop every single time he flares. I don't have to worry about him ever getting constipated.


----------



## Nimble

I'll keep an eye out. If they die, then I'm getting the baby bristlenose, and will sell it back to the petstore after it grows too large, if I don't have a larger tank by then.


----------



## hrutan

Water changes, water changes. My back doesn't thank me and the fish get grumpy, but the cups must be changed...shelf 1 of 3, complete.


----------



## Nimble

Such a good fish-mommy, Hrutan.


----------



## hrutan

Change, change...



Making progress...



Shelf two done...



"Take pictures for me, hrutan!"


----------



## hrutan

Water changes are done. Baby tanks are tended. I have to go Downtown for a meeting tomorrow, which means another night short on sleep for me. Feeding all the kids, then going to bed.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Thank you mrs. hrutan!!! For the photos !!!

Good night! Get a lot of rest!


----------



## hrutan

Remember Toothless? He used to be quite small...he would fall asleep on his cucumber dinner, wake up, and eat some more. He had a little cave under a piece of driftwood where he would sleep, snuggled up with his betta girlfriend, Mystique.

Well, he's not so little anymore. He doesn't fit in his cave, or fall asleep on a cucumber slice. Panda Cories have taken over his old home, and now he lurks around the driftwood and hides behind rocks. But, sometimes he visits his childhood haunts. Especially if food is involved.


----------



## Tress

Big boy! The tank looks great  I can see the kitty made sure he was in the picture too


----------



## hrutan

LOL, I hadn't noticed, but you're right. That's his foof of a tail, all right.


----------



## hrutan

I got rid of 30 fish today, 27 to the pet store, 3 to friends...and came home with one fish. I was at a pet shop buying heat packs and had to check out the bettas...one halfmoon male was sick. So I let the owner know, and he said, "Well, you can have him for free if you'd like to try to rescue him. Some of them came in clamped and didn't get better."

I replied that I didn't really have any room for pet fish.

"I'm not going to be able to treat him here. Are you sure?"

Well...

His name is Siegfried. He's pretty sick. I have him floating in a 1g quarantine tank right now. He's been in the same tap water I have, which means all I need to acclimate him for is temperature. I am going to try him on daily water changes with a bit of aquarium salt for a week, and if he doesn't improve, start him on medication.

By the way...somehow, I had a 1 gallon, heater, and thermometer free...and I have NO IDEA where the heater came from. It's not my usual brand.


----------



## hrutan

Oh, I forgot to include the picture. He's a very soft green.


----------



## aurielssong

He's pretty! Hope he makes it :/


----------



## Fenghuang

_That_ is a HM? Oh, my goodness, poor thing. I hope he gets better soon. ):


----------



## hrutan

Me too. Nice of the shop owner to give him a chance, wasn't it? All right, I need to go AFK. Gotta get off my hiney and pack and weigh a sample package before the post office closes.


----------



## Schmoo

My fingers are crossed for Siegfried!


----------



## BettaLover1313

Poor boy. I hope he gets better.


----------



## hrutan

Ah, man. I have been working all day! Now that I've run out of pressing tasks to do, I am ... confused.

Siegfried is all settled into his QT tank, now. No sign of un-clamping, but he's still alive, and that's a good start.

Today I...
Sold 27 fish (16 males + 1 freebie, 10 females) to the pet store
Gave 3 away to a new home
Bought a dedicated air pump for my brine shrimp hatchery
Went to an out of town store for heat packs
Rescued a betta while I was there - a real rescue, not a purchase of a sick fish!
Found a random heater (I still don't know where it came from)
Went grocery shopping. Purchased 8 gallons of spring water for breeding.
Weighed a package at the post office to figure out how much shipping costs.
Cleaned out one of the 10 gallons, refilled it with 3 gallons of spring water.
Set up a new BBS hatchery.
Sent out payment info to all my buyers/adopters.
And...did laundry.
Somehow I still had time to play Farm Heroes Saga and beat level 317 (yes...I have a problem...)

Right now I'm acclimating Primus and Elizabeth to the spring water and warming up the tank before releasing them for a respawn.


----------



## hrutan

*You know what they say about idle hands...*

What's going on here?


----------



## Fenghuang

Are you preparing TWO spawns!? :shock:


----------



## hrutan

Yes, which could be awesome, or a lot of sleepless nights. I have no idea which.


----------



## Tress

Gosh woman, get some sleep xD! You deserve some sleep!


----------



## Fenghuang

I concur with Tress. But uh, that is awesome.


----------



## Tress

I do want to see lots more babies, but I'd hate to see you wear yourself out. It's so easy to get burnt out when you do so much!


----------



## Nimble

Who are we spawning, other than Primus x Elizabeth again?


----------



## hrutan

Primus x Elizabeth, and a respawn of Cygnus x Nimbus. I _really _want some oranges.

This time through I have two spare 20-gallons, so if one of the spawns is very large, it isn't a disaster. I can set up a spare tank in the garage and everything will be fine. There were many lessons learned the first time through, AND the second time with Primus x Nimbus.

- Take the IAL out early if you don't want ***** tanks
- Don't overfeed, and keep Ramshorns in after the fry are free-swimming to handle leftovers
- BBS can be started earlier than two weeks
- They will eat egg yolk
- Cull early if there's something that needs culling. It gets harder, later.
- Less water changes are OK in a cycled tank
- Growth Inhibit Hormone? No. Just bullies. Cup the big ones and the rest get more food.
- Don't panic


----------



## hrutan

Sadly Siegfried did not make it through the night. Poor guy. At least he was in a warm, quiet place with clean water when he passed.

An extra shame, when I took him out and examined him, he was true green.


----------



## Nimble

SIP Siegfried. Your soul swims in the waters beneath the Bifrost.

Will there be a proper viking funeral?


----------



## hrutan

Sadly, he must rest in dry earth. With no knowledge of what manner of ailment killed him, I did not feel safe giving him a water burial.


----------



## hrutan

Some introspection has revealed why I went to the trouble to put two spawns together: I miss being crazy and excited. It's "empty nest syndrome," folks.


----------



## Nimble

Oh dear... Gotta be careful with that, Hrutan. It's like going to the grocery store while you're hungry.


----------



## hrutan

I can't sit still today, which is a huge problem because I am at work. Focus. Focussss...it's time to go brew coffee, perhaps a little (all right, a lot) of caffeine will calm me down. 10 days until my Dr. appointment to get back on meds.

Speaking of which, I slept well for the first time in WEEKS after making that appointment. Now I'm working on two days of good sleep and I'm hyper as hell, haha.

My roommate texted me. I left my bag of beef heart on her desk and forgot to feed the adolescents in the 20 gallon. Both my roommate and the fish will survive, but that was kind of a gross surprise for her.


----------



## Nimble

Oops!


----------



## hrutan

We have eggs in Primus & Elizabeth's breeding tank. Looks like a reasonable amount, but she didn't egg-splode all over the floor like she did the last time.

I had to pull Nimbus out and put Catherine (cupped) in Cygnus's tank. Nimbus is just...too stupid...to breed...Catherine isn't ready, but hopefully being chimneyed in there for a while and having Cygnus strut his stuff will calm her down. She has eggs, she just isn't sure about this stranger.


----------



## Nimble

Figures that the most beautiful ones would be the ones least likely to do what you want them to.


----------



## hrutan

Well, Catherine shredded poor Cygnus overnight, but both are now acting game, so I'll let them be and leave the house for the day. Cygnus is going to need a fin trim after this, his anal fin looks like Swiss cheese and won't heal easily without a bit of evening out.

Still 4 living babies in the Cygnus x Nimbus spawn.  spotted them all this morning.


----------



## Nimble

Good to hear about the babies in the Cyg x Nim spawn! I'll be keeping my eye on that one. A good orange/yellow might be helpful in my quest to revive the Traditional Cambodian.


----------



## hrutan

Cygnus and Catherine have hit it off well.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Lovely shot


----------



## Tress

Yay! Lets hope for some pretty babies <3


----------



## hrutan

Packing up fish is an art. Wee.


----------



## Nimble

Yay fish!


----------



## hrutan

I'll post a photo demo once I know this batch has arrived safely. Back to packing fish.


----------



## hrutan

Must...suppress...urge...to check tracking numbers. They've been at the post office for half an hour. NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE.


----------



## hrutan

One of my friends brought the young betta she'd adopted from me back for treatment...he's curved in a C and floating, hasn't eaten or pooped in at least a week. I have him in Epsom salt, IAL, and very shallow water on the heat tape, let's see if he can "loosen up" a bit, so to speak. Poor little guy.

The fry in both 10 gallon spawn tanks are doing well. The dads are out, and I'm about to go harvest some BBS for them. They don't seem to have any problem at all eating BBS while newly hatched. I don't want to start another spawn log until we get past that critical 8 day old period.

I considered leaving the dads in, but this is my last shot to get fry of appropriate age before the Spring show, so that means I need enough of them to make it.

Next spawn will be from Primus & Elizabeth's kids.


----------



## hrutan

Also, someone set the thermostat in my house to 69 degrees. I don't know who that would be, I mean, it _wouldn't _have been me. I'm shivering in my boots! It _wouldn't _have been my roommate, she's a desert rat and even more sensitive than I am. Could it possibly have been the individual that has left for work already? HMM.

*Let the thermostat wars begin.*


----------



## Nimble

So, you would not be against feeding the newly hatched fry BBS? I've heard something along those lines. Betta fry being aggressive enough to mob and eat newly hatched _Artemia_ nauplii and tear a leg off.


----------



## hrutan

BBS are small enough that the fry can eat them whole, no problem. I didn't believe it until I tried it, just now. So, they can get hatchings of BBS, alternated with microworms when the BBS aren't ready. BBS are very, very nutritious, so if the fry can eat it, they should have it. MW and Vinegar eels have very low nutritional value. They are used just to fill the frys' bellies until they get some size on them.


----------



## Nimble

Good to know. Thanks!

*resists urge to spawn now, knowing this*

Patience, Nimble.


----------



## hrutan

*laughs*


----------



## hrutan

I had a huge nitrite spike in my 75 gallon. Yesterday morning, we caught Mystique eating one of the young mollies. Took the body out and didn't think too much of it, at first - until we found a second dead molly in the evening. Water tests indicated .25 ammonia (normal), at least 1 nitrite, 0-5 nitrates. The tank's cycled, but I'm thinking I overfed and the bacteria couldn't keep up with decaying food. We also have a snail population explosion.

My roommate and I worked together to change the water 50%, vacuum the floor, and remove as many snails as we could. About to do a water test and see what time and less junk has done to the quality.

Pond snails are a pain, by the way, and their egg clusters are gross. They seem to be eating everything indiscriminately ... I am undecided on whether I want loaches, or assassin snails.


----------



## Nimble

I would get Assassin Snails, just because Loaches have spikes on their face that can stab you.


----------



## hrutan

The answer is... dwarf puffers! Well, I'm trying them out, anyway. They can be territorial, but a larger group spreads out aggression, and it's a huge tank. Some recommend having a species only tank for puffers, but these guys only grow to be just under an inch - too big for Mystique to eat, too small to hurt the mollies. My local pet shop warned me away from some other species, but said that these have worked well in a community tank according to their customers.

We'll see how it works out in real life. I'm setting up a QT tank for them, now.


----------



## Nimble

Pictures are needed, and I wish you good luck!


----------



## hrutan

Here they are, floating in the big tank while I get the QT tank ready.


----------



## Nimble

He's so teeny! What're you gonna name him/her?


----------



## VivianKJean

OMG OMG OMG OMG

I'm so jealous! I love pufferfish. I can't wait to have one!


----------



## hrutan

I have no idea what to name him, lol. There are 5 of them - I saw groups of 5 or 6 recommended to spread out aggression. Phew, almost done getting the QT tank ready.


----------



## MikeG14

Nimble said:


> I would get Assassin Snails, just because Loaches have spikes on their face that can stab you.


Umm... Now that Hrutan has puffers, snails are definitely on the menu.

Your snail problems are over.


----------



## LadyNightraven

Ah, I'm so jealous of your new dwarf puffers! They're so darn cute! I've been wanting one for at least a year now. Congrats on finding such an adorable solution to your snail problems!


----------



## hrutan

10g QT tank set up, ready for its new inhabitants. A corner of the garage cleaned, as well. I have a bunch of old belongings to go through. Fun times.

If I can find a way to properly regulate the temperature in there during the summer (some kind of chiller or air conditioner, perhaps?) I may remove the table and put in another rack, or even just move my rack into the garage and out of my bedroom. It's a nice, sizeable area and no one else in the family has claimed it. There's a certain joy and convenience in having the breeding facilities right there in my bedroom, but a lot of INconvenience as well.

The puffers are super cute. I hope they work out. Be careful if you love the ones that'll get big, though. I got warned off of those...they can get big enough to eat my mollies!


----------



## DaytonBetta

Wow! Exciting, I am planning to get a large group of Dwarf Puffers for my 55 gallon so I look forward to hearing about your experience. They are so cute! I've been adding ramshorns from the 29 to the 55 everyday to get ready for them. Have you seen the you tube videos of them eating snails?

Do you know if yours are wild caught or captive bred?


----------



## hrutan

I don't know, and didn't think to ask. They are small and young, so hopefully captive bred. Dwarf puffers are considered vulnerable in the wild. That would grate on my conscience something fierce!

I haven't seen videos, but can't wait to see it in person...I like Ramshorns well enough, but this infestation of pond snails is driving me batty.


----------



## hrutan

I would just like to let you know, that the typing skills seem to be the last thing to go...


----------



## Nimble

Having a good night, are we Hrutan?


----------



## hrutan

Just got fed two double shots a little close together. I am just a little fuzzy, now.


----------



## Nimble

Oh my. What were they shots of, my dear tipsy darling? Hopefully not anything stronger than 100 proof.


----------



## hrutan

I think it was Marilyn Monroe. lol. I forgot I hadn't had dinner OR lunch when I had that, too. For some reason, the family's perfectly willing to feed me alcohol, but not so willing to steer me away from the computer, after. Haha.

We ended up playing a nice game of Five Tribes, which is an excellent board game that walks the fine line of complexity vs. ease to learn.

Are there any other board game enthusiasts here? What's your favorite game - and I don't mean Monopoly unless you play it according to the rules, not the way that your older cousin taught you it's supposed to be played that one time. I like Euro style board games; the competition is there, but usually not direct or cutthroat, and they don't typically last more than 30-60 minutes.


----------



## autojoy

Ohhh puffers! So jealous. Hope they work out for you & you post lots of pics of the cuties!!! 

I love board-games!!!  I like the types that "escalate" somehow... e.g. Betrayal at House on the Hill, Mansions of Madness, Lords of Waterdeep, that kind of thing. I love co-op games too. Played Forbidden Desert recently and it was great! Big fan of Castaways, too, which is kind of similar. Not sure what my fave boardgame truly is.... I actually DO adore Monopoly, lol. I like Talisman a lot, been playing that for years with close friends so it's easy and familiar  So.... possibly Talisman is my fave! Castaways a close second... ^_^

EDIT: waaaaaaait I think my actual fave boardgame might be Hanabi, but that's not... strictly a boardgame. I guess. Oops!


----------



## hrutan

I haven't played Hanabi. Forbidden Desert is awesome...I can never get people to cooperate on Betrayal at House on the Hill or Mansions of Madness, lol. Been meaning to play Lords of Waterdeep - my roommate has it, but I haven't sat down to play with her yet.


----------



## autojoy

Hanabi is a really unique experience! But you have to co-operate incredibly closely and incredibly well in order to "win", I guess. But at the same time, you never really "lose", 'cause it's done on a scoring system. We've only managed to get top-score once. It sounds intensely boring to describe ("imagine you're putting on a fireworks display by lining up these coloured cards..........") but the mechanic is like nothing I've played before. Recommend! (4+ players is best, 5 works really well).

Lords of Waterdeep is great, though when we played with 6 it dragged a lot. I think 4 is ideal! Or, playing with 6 but cutting out the second agent (you'll know what I mean when you play it!)

Sorry, blabbing. I heart games, lol.


----------



## hrutan

My roommate is the manager of a game shop. ;-)


----------



## autojoy

Corrrr, amazing!


----------



## hrutan

*WARNING: The photos at the end of this post are graphic pictures of very sick fish. Don't look if you have a weak stomach.*

Today was a sad day. Two of my acquaintances on the breeders' Facebook group that I am a member of have had their fish come down with suspected Mycos - the disease in the "IMPORTANT: Watch For These Disease Signs" thread. This disease is incurable in fish, and has been confirmed to be contagious to humans, entering the body through cuts on the hands, mouth-starting a siphon, or other less than sterile procedures. Fortunately for humans, it IS curable, but the bacteria involved is quite tricky and may require six months or more of antibiotics. It is in the same family as tuberculosis, which makes many people call it "Fish TB," but it is actually more similar to leprosy.

Myco can be caught by ALL colors of betta, not just the blue ones. If you read through the whole thread, you'll not only be paranoid, but also informed. Do yourself a favor and take the time.

My acquaintances have to kill every single one of their fish, and replace or sterilize all of their equipment. Bleach cannot be relied on to kill this bacteria, due to a waxy coating that covers the vulnerable cell. 91% or greater alcohol will kill it, although soaking is best. I've been told first wash the equipment with a 50% bleach solution, then sterilize with alcohol...and maybe you can get your stuff clean. Maybe. Toss out your soft things (nets, siphons, ect.) At least one of them may have caught the disease, although it must be confirmed via necropsy of one of their fish before their doctor will consider it. It's very hard to convince some health professionals to test for a disease they've never heard of...

People who buy their fish at pet stores are at minimal risk, since most US store bettas are farm raised in Florida at regulated facilities. However, imports ARE at risk, and there is a suspected seller. (S)he has now been removed from Aquabid. If you've purchased fish from Aquabid and are concerned for the safety of your stock, feel free to PM me for the name, and kindly remember that they are only suspected, not confirmed...but the evidence is great enough to make it unlikely to be a coincidence. No torches and pitchforks, please.

*Symptoms to watch for:*
Small wounds or cysts that turn into lesions, persistent fin rot where daily water changes and antibiotics don't cure it, sudden black or gray portions of the fins that rapidly (or slowly) moves to the body. Lethargy. Sudden death. Eye cloud or other opportunistic infections. In extreme cases, the fish literally is rotting away before your eyes. Some cases, however, can be quite slow, and the fish can linger for weeks. 

Not all symptoms are present in all cases, but if you're getting more than one, or your fish are getting sick one by one and you don't know why, or your fish are getting sick after being put into a dead fish's tank, even if you sterilized it with bleach, consider whether it might be Mycos.

_*Photos taken and fish owned by Lori Suzanne Green. Do not reproduce without permission by the owner.*_


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

It's not often one of your posts makes me shudder


----------



## hrutan

Yes, it is terribly sad. Not only awful for the fish, of course, but an emotional and financial wrecking ball for the breeder. Every fish they own, all of their equipment, everything GONE. And they have to call every individual that they sold a fish to...and if they are unlucky, that means that those people have to destroy all of _their _fish, too.

Happily I did not buy any fish from the suspected Aquabid dealer. However, other people have...and are starting to see suspect symptoms in their fish, as well. With an incubation period that can last 3 or 4 months, there's no way of knowing the fish is a carrier until it's too late. All you have to do is have your hands wet to pass it on from one tank to the other.


----------



## hrutan

On a more cheerful note...I have been given a female that has me absolutely thrilled. Assuming she arrives safely tomorrow (I bit the bullet and paid Express, but you know, it's still winter), she'll be a future pairing for Primus. If, that is, I can get her to breed.

She's been known to be a bit...stubborn.

By that, I mean _really _stubborn.

By that, I mean, my friend is giving me one of Aquastar71's fish for the cost of shipping out of _sheer frustration._ Have you heard of Aquastar71? Look him up sometime. You'll get some eye candy. **fans herself** Such beauty....such expensive, unaffordable beauty...

This little lady is described as: HM Rosetail. Stubborn. Rude. Picky. Evil. Sneaky. A variety of words that cannot be repeated in public. Thinks she's a dolphin. Can leap a styrofoam cup in a single bound. LOOK AT HOW CONFUSED THIS MALE LOOKS.

"Where'd she go?" Haha.

Even if I can't get her to breed, she'll be pampered for the rest of her life for making me laugh a good gut belly laugh when I really needed it.

*Photos taken and fish owned by Kasey Clark. Please do not reproduce without permission by the owner.*


----------



## Tress

I don't blame her not wanting to breed with him, looks like he mauled her pretty good lol


----------



## hrutan

She has been attempted with thirteen (13!) males. She was only willing to wrap with one of them...and then he turned out to be an egg eater. :lol:


----------



## Fenghuang

So sad for your friend. That is heartbreaking. :-(

Congratulations on your new female. She is a beau.


----------



## Nimble

Good luck with the new female. Maybe if you're lucky, she'll be a good breeder for one of your VT males. She's a looker.


----------



## hrutan

I have her in mind for Primus, but she could also go with Cygnus. The lovely thing about "chocolate" is that it can go with either orange OR black. Of course, it's quite arrogant of me to assume I can get her to breed when an experienced breeder has failed, but I do have a different technique. I'm hoping a larger tank will help her relax and feel less like she has to get away from a courting male.


----------



## Nimble

Different strokes, as they say. You've been fairly successful with all but miss 'Blondie' Nimbus on that last attempt.

Speaking of, how are the Cygnus x Catherine spawn doing?


----------



## hrutan

They are both still in there. I just fed them a nice meal of brine shrimp (Really hard to avoid overfeeding. I'm sure I overfed them.) They are feisty and strong  One is doing better than the other.


----------



## Nimble

Oh? No eggs from them? Or are they still in the course of a several day spawning session? If so, I'm very impressed and a bit jealous at their stamina.


----------



## hrutan

OH, My mistake, I misunderstood the question and thought you meant Cygnus x Nimbus. The Cygnus x Catherine spawn is of decent size and healthy so far. Lots of little swimmers.


----------



## autojoy

Sad for the Mycos ordeal, that's so awful. The new lady you have on the way is very beautiful! She sounds like she's got a lot of character


----------



## hrutan

Yes and I am on pins and needles...taking a heat pack to work with me today. She's due to arrive today (I have my fish delivered to work) and I work until 8 PM. Ugh.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Still that's epic!


----------



## hrutan

My new girl arrived in the mail. Cool, but intact - the heat pack had rustled into a position where it wasn't able to get oxygen and lost its heat. It warmed up after unpacked - a close call for the little lady, but nice for keeping her warm while I'm working.

She is splish splashing in the bag. Splish...splash.

Splish.

FLOP.

Splash.

It is very strange to hear her dancing around in there. My other mail-order fish were quiet in their bags, content to use the time in the dark to sleep. Not this one. NOPE. None of that "resting" business. It's time to party in the shipping bags!

SPLORSH.

_Goodness gracious_, girl, what is on your mind?

She's a little beat up from her last (failed) breeding attempt. And by a little, I mean "Oh, you poor little _dear!_ That nasty boy will never touch you again!" Some good clean, warm water and nice frozen food will get her right as rain in no time.


----------



## KitDewStein

Omg her poor fins! She is interesting in colors.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I though for a second maybe she did that to herself in the bag during shipping O_O


----------



## hrutan

*And in other news...*

Meet Roc. Roc is still sitting on a pet store shelf, but should be coming home soon with Nimble, who spotted him during a shopping trip. From Nimble, he will then journey to me - after a hiatus at Nimble's place where he gets fed and warmed up while the weather settles. Hooray! He's so _handsome_. Look at those solid orange fins - Roc solid, that is...


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Very Punny <3


----------



## Nimble

Trust me, he's much prettier in person.

But yeah, I knew you wanted to work with oranges, Hrutan. That's why I gave you the call. I'm not working with veils at the moment, but I was astounded by his color.

I should be able to go pick him up tomorrow. The pet store said they would hold him for me until closing-time on Friday.


----------



## hrutan

This is terribly exciting. The chocolate coloration intensifies orange and yellows. He's perfect, perfect, perfect.


----------



## Nimble

As I said before, Hrutan. Please don't pee yourself. He'll get to you in due time.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Lol


----------



## KitDewStein

Wish fish that looked like that were around here. He is awesome looking (I love and adore the color orange)


----------



## Schmoo

Such a gorgeous new girl you have! :3 Poor thing needs some TLC though, yes. I think you should Google "typical female mule names" because she sounds to be as stubborn as one. xD


----------



## hrutan

I think I may name her "Siren" after the creatures that lure sailing men to their deaths in the sea.


----------



## hrutan

Not sure, though. That's also part of one of my online handles, so it might be too weird.


----------



## Nimble

Roc is safe and secure in my 2.5g tank, with a heater and the big bubble filter.


----------



## hrutan

Eek!


----------



## hrutan

I need to do some water changes, and am dragging my feet because this is the first time I've had absolutely no obligations to meet in quite a while. There's a bunch of things on my own agenda, of course, and I've been informed we're painting the living room today. (Wait, what?) But, that's not until later.

I have a few things that I'd like to do today, and I'm waiting for my husband to wake up and get out of the house before I really get working.

After the babies are fed, all the fry tanks have to be changed, and pictures must be taken. It's time to update two spawn logs and start a new one (for Cygnus + Catherine). The fry are doing well. The previous mass-deaths must have been due to something with the water, because I'm not seeing that, this time. Many little babies. Oh my. I'd like do do water changes on my big kids, as well, but that doesn't take nearly so long.

I need to shift around the cups to organize for the ones that go out on Tuesday, so that I don't make a mistake and feed someone that needs to be fasting.

I wanted to set up some cool bubblers in the big tank. Oh, and the water quality issue has been resolved. I'm trying an anti-parasitical on the tank (two boxes of medicine for a full course, lol) in the hopes of squishing whatever it is that is making them flash. It doesn't appear to be velvet, and the fish aren't dying. Once that's handled, then a batch of mollies need to get rounded up and taken to the pet shop. It's crowded in there.

Toothless is getting big. People are starting to call him "The Leviathan" now. He STOLE the last piece of squash that I put in there, along with the plant weights that I was using to keep it on the bottom. YOINK! Starting to save to upgrade...we need the largest tank that can be found that will still fit on that wall.

The puffers are adorable. They are EXTREMELY cranky, and they love their blood worms. Note: Bloodworms need to be chopped. They are too big to fit in the little dudes' mouths.


----------



## Nimble

My LFS just started carrying Figure-8 puffers. They're so blasted adorable.


----------



## aurielssong

I GET THE LEVIATHAN JOKE!!!!! Supernatural FTW!!


----------



## hrutan

There's a 115 gallon tank + stand that would fit on the wall, for sale at the LPS...$600 for the tank, stand, light fixtures, and lid. Time to save up. Also, I don't think this tank is actually 75 gallons. It looks suspiciously like it might really be 60, judging by the other tanks for sale...


----------



## KitDewStein

Measure it and see if it is the same size as a 60 or 70


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I'm going to have to do that at some point. Right now it's just at the "not big enough" size, whatever that is. Ha!


----------



## KitDewStein

It could become a really huge sorority tank for what ever size it is XD


----------



## hrutan

My dreams for the 75(?) gallon tank have been nixed, hehe. I was dreaming of goldfish. Alas...

Theoretically, I could "store" it in the garage and set it up as a giant grow-out. But, I don't think I could jar as many fish as would require such a large tank.

Sayla said something that made me do the math on how much I spent on the first spawn. If I account for parents and food, something like $700...phew. It's a good thing most equipment doesn't need to be bought more than once! Worth it, though. I haven't had this much fun in, well...ever.


----------



## hrutan

Well, some measuring has confirmed, the "75 gallon tank" is actually 60 gallons. Oh well. On the up side, we have room for a 6 foot tank along that wall...  Oh, and also Toothless the "orange spot" pleco is actually a GOLD spot pleco. Top size, 12 inches. Halfway there, little buddy!

My roommate and I went and checked out a pet shop out in the Valley that we hadn't been to, yet. I ended up leaving with a pretty green girl named "Macha." Macha survived some pretty tough conditions in that cup - the ammonia was high and nasty. Meticulous quarantine is needed - I asked where they get their water for the bettas, so that I'd know whether to drip acclimate or not, and they said they get their water FROM THE OTHER FISH TANKS. Eeeeeeeeek!

Macha does not look like your typical plakat female. She looks, as a matter of fact, like a wild hybrid. I've been asked to go back to the pet shop and pick up the other, similar females for the Golden State Bettas meeting on Sunday.

Oh, and did I mention? She's green. 

Here she is, as well as the ones I'll be going back to get tomorrow.


----------



## Thothgirl

*Makes grabby hands* So Pretty! So Green! 

She is a great find!


----------



## Tress

...as green as that ammonia reading, Yikes!

What tipped you off to her possible hybrid-ness? Her form/finnage or the colour? Just curious.


----------



## hrutan

I am looking at a number of factors. The length and shape of the body, combined with the size and shape of the fins, combined with the length of the ventrals, combined with the unusual, muted colors, reminded me strongly of wild-type bettas. They may, instead, be female "fighter" PKs, which tend to look more primitive, but with her mild temperament, I'm not buying it.

Oh, she's doing much better this morning. Swimming around in her blue water and unclamped. I was really worried last night.


----------



## VivianKJean

hrutan said:


> My roommate and I went and checked out a pet shop out in the Valley that we hadn't been to, yet. I ended up leaving with a pretty green girl named "Macha." Macha survived some pretty tough conditions in that cup - the ammonia was high and nasty. Meticulous quarantine is needed - I asked where they get their water for the bettas, so that I'd know whether to drip acclimate or not, and they said they get their water FROM THE OTHER FISH TANKS. Eeeeeeeeek!


Back in April with I got Perry, I had his cup in my hand and was going over to get some extra gravel for his tank. The gravel is right next to the sink area at my Petco and I watched as a mother and her little girl gave a betta cup with a beautiful half moon in it to the "aquatics specialist" and he literally inverted the cup and dumped him into a bag and then went over to the feeder goldfish tank and scooped water out and added it to the bag. He looked at me and said "i can bag that betta for you" and shook my head repeatedly and ran away like a small child.


----------



## hrutan

Well, there are some things that can be fixed, and some things that cannot. I went back to the pet shop and picked up 4 females and a male of the same odd variety as Ms. Macha, and while I was there I had a chat with the manager about their water quality. She was receptive, and asked questions. She also accepted my email address if they want more advice or information about how to care for their bettas to keep them in the best sale condition.


----------



## Nimble

So, are we in the potential of seeing a Macho and Macha spawn? Looking for greens?


----------



## hrutan

Maybe. Possibly. I have impulse control issues. If so, not for quite some time, though, since I have two spawns in progress and only so much room. I might live vicariously through Yvonne Chaban instead, though.


----------



## Nimble

You're a laugh, Hrutan. You really are.


----------



## hrutan

Well...hypothetically, this COULD be the break I need for finding a fish guaranteed to not be carrying Cambodian.


----------



## Nimble

But with all that iridescence, it kinda pushes you away from what you want with your orange project, right?

Roc has the dark chocolate body which should mean that he lacks the Cambodian gene, if I'm not mistaken. He's starting to look a little better, too.


----------



## hrutan

Yes, Roc is a good alternative start. I wasn't planning on using him specifically in the Cambodian project due to wanting the oranges that I have to be only distantly related to the Cambodians that I want to create. That will let me interbreed with less worry, later.

The new kids are in a covered box in the warmest room of the library, with a heat pack. I changed their water out for fresh water with Methylene blue to help them recover from the ammonia in the pet store cups. They are coloring up slowly. One is black, which I am very intrigued by, simply because she's beautiful.

I wrote an email to the supplier of these fish, inquiring about their lineage. We'll see if they have any clue or if they are randomly bred, or if the place even answers that kind of email...


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

O.O you got more *grabby hands*


----------



## hrutan

I did. Two of them are sick and I am keeping, three of them I am taking to the Golden State Bettas meeting tomorrow to give to the chapter head.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Hmmm... I wonder if after the VTs you couldn't find a way to make a "new" vt. I realize it would be a lot of trouble, but to get a very long bodied fish with very lo and very skinny fins, almost like streamers, (my amazing legendary ms paint skills are coming again) but I gotta wonder if this is possible


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Like this


----------



## hrutan

It's possible. Anything is possible with selective breeding. BUT...if you see this guy in full flare I bet the fullness of his fins would be very different looking.


----------



## Nimble

I'm looking forward to pictures of the new green boy, Hrutan. Get a nice good flare out of him.


----------



## hrutan

He actually looks like a dark body yellow fin bicolor...he's in Methylene Blue at the moment, so I can't tell you if he's blue or green along with that yellow. Two of the girls are for sure green, the one I first purchased being the best of them.


----------



## hrutan

Well, I lost Macha. She jumped more than 3 inches. I hate it when they are champion jumpers.

The other 3 "tweeners" that I have are doing well. The one with a back injury is healing rapidly - instead of an open wound, she has a space with some discoloration and slightly disordered scales. No signs of regrowth on that dorsal. I think she'll be green when she colors up, so that's something. The black one that was clamped has un-clamped. The male is still floating, but he's also flaring, and I like that.


----------



## Nimble

Sucks about Macha... it's always tougher when they have names.


----------



## hrutan

Yeah. I didn't have her all that long so I wasn't deeply attached, but it is so disappointing. She was such a lovely forest green, and a slow death like that is just rotten. I may go back to the pet store and check out their selection...didn't buy them all... >.>


----------



## hrutan

MY FISH ARE INSANE. ALL OF THEM.

There's nothing to make the heart skip a beat like finding an empty cup on the shelf, lid still intact.

Something has gotten into my fish. Found another jumper...this one in time, thank goodness, she was only out for a few minutes. Not one of my tweeners, one of my smaller regular females and she went right through the feeding hole. I'd swear she couldn't possibly have fit through that. At feeding time this morning it sounded like pebbles chucked at a window. **BOP** **BOP** **BOP** from everywhere.

...I have to replace all of my lids. Enough is enough, this is nuts. Full moon...

On top of that, today's jumper was flirt-swimming...at one of the new tweener "girls," who is flirt-swimming right back. Head bowed, side to side waggle, no flaring whatsoever. But, given their mystery lineage, for all I know they have different body language and (s)he's speaking Indo while my girl's speaking English. It's also the injured "girl," who is recovering nicely. Still stress-striped up, but it looks like (s)he'll be green when (s)he's happier.

*Magic Blue Water*
1 Gallon Aged, Pre-Heated Tap Water
3/4ths tsp. aquarium salt
1 drop Methylene Blue
_Shake well. Make a fresh batch each day for fish with mild illness or ammonia poisoning._


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I will use the blue water on Mesmer eventually. I'll be careful not to shake the water while he is in it, unless he is annoying me.


----------



## JHatchett

They like to cause heart attacks. I've had to get faster on the food delivery, because Xena has decided she is a dolphin, she jumps for food at all meals and she jumped the divider couple days ago at breakfast and tried to beat the tar out of Starbuck and nabbed his food. He spent a good part of the morning hiding in his cave after that incursion.


----------



## hrutan

I'd have warned you if I had known that this batch of fish had ambitions of flight.


----------



## Nimble

The full moon last night did seem to make everyone a little crazy. Thankfully it was a weeknight, so none of this spilled over to my work.


----------



## hrutan

I've had two more jumpers since the last post, both of them at feeding time, so I caught them right away and put them back in without ill effects...one through the feeding hole of her jar, one from out of a growout tank. Holy cow, guys.

And in other news...I pulled Mystique out of the big community tank for looking clamped. She's large and rather bloated, looking both over-full of eggs, and F-A-T, even though I sometimes don't remember to feed her for a couple of days...

So you remember that cute, tiny little thing I took home from the pet store?

Uh.

Well.

She's terrifying.

Before...and after. Mystique is the LARGEST betta that I own, not counting the giant. She's larger than every male that I have.


----------



## hrutan

Here she is next to the next-largest female I have.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

She looks like she could and would eat any other fish that annoyed her. Yet I find that attractive.....


----------



## KitDewStein

Bet if you bred her you would get some big males O.O


----------



## hrutan

I don't even have a male that could wrap her, lol. If I was trying to breed CT giants, maybe...

I think it was the 60 gallon. It's a good environment, filled with a ton of plants and a variety of creatures to snack on. As an experiment, I've drip acclimated a bunch of runt culls from my two spawns and added them to the 60 gallon instead of killing them - I hate culling, and it didn't seem fair to kill them just because they were little, but after the last huge spawn I learned that the small ones won't grow if they can't compete. There's plenty of hiding places, lots of "free range" food, and I add powder food and the occasional batch of BBS for the molly fry, anyway. We'll see if anything comes of it. I only put a few ... around 30 of the several hundred in my spawn tanks. They are around 4 weeks old.

Worst case, the puffers and mollies get a bit of extra food. That sounds callous, but they do have to eat too, and if only 3 or 4 of those baby bettas live to jarring age, well...that is more than there would have been otherwise.


----------



## salome

Why yes, I did marathon read this entire thread into the wee hours this morning. Thank goodness for coffee!

My reactions while reading were a little something like this -- "WOW. Aww. This woman has the patience of a saint, is she a librarian -- HEY SHE'S A LIBRARIAN! Wow! Babies!!! SO cute!" (I worked for three years as a library page, and my mother has been a librarian's assistant for 21 years, hence my excitement over realizing you were one.)

I'm honestly overwhelmed by all I read. I stand in awe of you and your dedication. I look forward to future updates (and to possibly getting one of your babies...).


----------



## hrutan

Ah, haha. Yeah, we librarians do have to have a bit of patience, don't we? Thank you. I'm glad that you enjoyed reading this journal. Any excuse for sleep deprivation, right? Hahaha. And, babies will be offered for sale or adoption every couple of months. There's a batch of HM that's close to ready right now, although Sayla gets first dibs when I finally have time to post and showcase some pictures. Just jarred the whole batch...mayhem broke out in the growout tank. I left them in too long! :shock:


----------



## DaytonBetta

How are your puffers doing? It's been a couple weeks, right?


----------



## hrutan

The puffers all made it through quarantine just fine and were added to the community tank on Friday. They zoomed into the greenery and disappeared. I see them every now and then - sometimes alone, sometimes in a little group. I thought they were solitary fish, but it seems like they do enjoy some company, which is nice. Their body language is much better in the big community tank - they don't have their tail hooked into that funny little L anymore.


----------



## hrutan

"Plain Jane" the gray molly gave birth last night in her quarantine tank. She'd been removed from the 60 gallon due to a sore on her belly. HOLY BALLS AND BABY FISH. No wonder Mystique got so fat...no wonder Jane's belly looked like it wanted to split open...

There is no overlap of babies between these two shots. In fact, I probably missed some.


----------



## MattsBettas

The reason big livebearers kinda scare me...


----------



## hrutan

I counted between 40 and 50. Phew.


----------



## Nimble

So, you're gonna let these ones grow, rather than feeding them to hungry Bettas or Puffers?


----------



## hrutan

Well, they are in the QT already. I am just not hardhearted enough to dump them back into the 60g...and I do NOT want so many fry to grow up in there. So, they are getting raised in the QT for as long as possible and then given away.


----------



## hrutan

I might have just bought a pair of mahachai.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

hrutan said:


> I might have just bought a pair of mahachai.


So...gonna breed them to normal betta and see what happens?


----------



## hrutan

Not first gen. I am getting a juvie pair free for the cost of shipping. They have some swim bladder issues, which with careful feeding they might grow out of, but crossing is stressful enough without potential swimming issues. Next gen I will buy an unrelated mahachai to freshen up the gene pool, and make a careful selection for an outcross candidate.


----------



## MattsBettas

Are you absolutely, _one hundred percent_ sure that the issues are in no way genetic? I'd be highly cautious... Even with splendens breeding any genetic issues is a huge no-no, with rarer species it's even more important with the smaller genepools... Just something to keep in mind. 

I am happy and (dare I say) even a bit jealous of you. Love that species (remember, these ones like salt!), and really hope you have good luck with them!


----------



## hrutan

Yes, they are coming from a friend of mine. She hasn't had the SBD issues with the relatives, so it is unlikely to be the result of anything but overfeeding.


----------



## autojoy

Oh mahachai!! So lovely. Wishing u the best with them, whether crossing them or not!


----------



## hrutan

Getting ready for some new residents...need a lid, more plants, and a couple small terra cotta pots.


----------



## hrutan

I never much thought about whether fish sleep, before owning them myself. They don't blink, so how could they get a little shut-eye? But, they -do- sleep, or something very like it. My jarred bettas are often at the bottom of their containers when the lights come on in the morning, and swim up with varying degrees of alertness. Some are quite sluggish.

This morning I turned on the lights for the mollies, and at first, it seemed as though the mother, who was resting at the bottom, must have eaten them all. There were debris all over the tank floor. Then, slowly, she began to move, and the limp little creatures around her woke as well. It was as though I was watching a rising moon surrounded by tiny satellites.

The Mother and her Legion had awoken.


----------



## Nimble

Plain Jane the Broodmother.


----------



## hrutan

Bwahaha, yes.


----------



## hrutan

Well, as could probably have been predicted, I didn't manage to do picture day yesterday, which was disappointing. It was a terribly busy day...any time I have the same day off as my roommate, things happen.

We went to the pet shop to get a female imbellis, but the owner forgot to text me the night before to let me know that she had mysteriously died in the night. I knew I should've scheduled an earlier pick up date...but we left with two new female mollies for the big tank. The sex ratio needed to be changed so that Jane didn't get so much harassment by the male. We also left with a diamondeye dragonscale. My roommate insisted that we let the shop manager know that he was already mostly blind and would need special care, and the shop manager gave him to us.

I didn't want him, but my roommate promised to care for him. We have a spare little 1 gallon that is getting prepped for him - he's in a cup on my heated shelf in the meantime.

This guy will be staying in the small habitat permanently. I've found most of my bettas are more comfortable in confined spaces to begin with, and as his blindness progresses, the lack of obstacles will be helpful to him. My roommate made a feeding ring out of air tubing and adhered it to the corner of the tank with aquarium sealant. When it's fully cured in a couple of days, she'll fill it up and put him in. He's being trained that a tap on the cup means it's food time, and the food will always get dropped in his little ring. Hopefully with those precautions, he'll still be able to find his food when he is totally blind.

He has been named Delphi, in honor of the home of the blind Greek oracle.

In other news, I have set up a spawn for this weekend! It's time for an F1 pair together. I'm starting with Red Loss Boy and a sister that has a long dorsal. It's hard to tell with the females whether they are carrying double tail or not, and I feel a bit uncertain that I kept any females carrying the trait. Time, of course, will tell.

Wish me luck!


----------



## KitDewStein

Good luck with the spawn.


----------



## hrutan

Well, I finally think I figured out what happened to the one box that I sent out that was DOA. One of my friends had a bunch of fish she sent out this week arrive dead (many of them also late), but with warm heat packs. Exactly what happened to my shipment (minus the lateness - it arrived early).

She was suspicious that the boxes had been left out on loading docks or in trucks overnight, so she conducted a little experiment - she put a heat pack in the freezer and let it freeze. Several hours later, when she pulled it out, it was no longer emitting heat. But, when left out of the freezer for a couple of hours, it started to warm up again, until it resumed normal heat production.

My lingering uncertainty about whether I screwed up on the packing is gone. It wasn't me. Unpressurized cabin, loading dock, or truck - the outcome is the same. USPS killed those fish.

That doesn't really make me feel better...they are the only real option for shipping. FedEx and UPS are too cost-prohibitive to be of any use.

I think the safest option is to be paranoid about the overnight temperatures at the destination.


----------



## kevinap2

That's pretty much what I had suspected all along. I didn't know that the heat packs stop working below freezing temps, and the conditions here were somewhat warmer than they probably were in the freezer- but close enough that I think that's exactly what happened.

I am at the beginning of my USPS route (living next to the post office has it's advantages), but I am pretty sure that box was either left outside overnight at my post office, or exposed to an unpressurized cabin en route.

Valuable, but costly lesson learned.


----------



## hrutan

I didn't know, either. There will be no more shipping from me until March or April, probably. I still have two pairs of fish that need to get to their new homes, but I am not risking the trip to New York right now. Not even with my new, super fancy neon orange LIVE FISH labels.

On top of that, it's 85 outside today. So I can't send any fish out unless it's within this state cluster, because if I try to pack with a heat pack they will get fried, but if I pack without a heat pack they can't go to a cold destination.


----------



## kevinap2

I'm jealous. We are abnormally cold today. 3 degrees with a wind chill of- 28.


----------



## hrutan

Oh, I am loving this weather, don't get me wrong. I'd be loving it more if it weren't signalling that there's no end to this drought...but I'm still loving it.


----------



## aurielssong

I am so happy that I told you to cancel my fish, we have 2 feet of snow here and counting :/ and with me working nights, nothing ever gets delivered until after I've left for work, they would have frozen to death!!


----------



## hrutan

Yes, this weather is a nightmare. I still have 4 fish to send out, but I refuse to ship with the destination weather so bad. It's just not safe. I will not be getting my Mahachai for quite a while due to the owner being in Michigan.

...So I ordered a pair of Imbellis. They'll be coming through the CA transshipper - Julie Tran - and will never be exposed to cold weather. Okay, Holly. You're going crazy now. But you know...I will surely have another tank ready by the time the Mahachai are safe to ship!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Who did you get your imbellis pairs from? 

Fortunately the weather here is never usually cold enough that a heat pack doesn't work.


----------



## hrutan

Joty Atmadjaja, it was a pleasure to work with him and he came with a good recommendation from another who had bought fish from him.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Oh yep, he is who I get almost all my wilds from. His fish are top notch quality and he has always been exceptional with his service (such as replacing several DOA fish).


----------



## hrutan

That kind of feedback is always good news. My friend and I are buying together to save on shipping, and he let us split payment so we didn't have to work it out between ourselves.


----------



## hrutan

I haven't done an update in a while. So hmm, where to start?

Yesterday I went to a 'scape club meeting with my friend Yvonne, and bought a bunch of plants at the auction. Spent last night planting both the Wild tank and the 60g (former 75g) with a random collection of my purchases. I got some salvinia, some tall grass looking stuff, some ludwigia repens...I don't even remember what-all. I also put in a couple cute little pots that didn't LOOK like they had paint. I _hope _they didn't have paint.

In a couple of days I will sniff them. But not right now, because... SHHH...the Pandas are sleeping in there...they moved when I tried to snap a photo, though.


The molly babies are doing well. They are enjoying an algae wafer.


I caught Mr. Kitty flaring at a reflection in his tank wall caused by a sunbeam. While he was flaring, he looked like a perfect spade tail. He wasn't a spade tail when I bought him, but I guess that's how he regrew after the fin trim. He still looks all droopy and pathetic when he's not flaring.

Titania is her normal friendly self. She still looks like a boy and acts like a girl. I love that fish. I made her a new tank lid out of craft mesh this weekend.

Phoenix dances.

I still miss Goliath.

Primus is back in his own 3g tank in the kitchen, where he contentedly bubblenests and watches my roommate cook. I don't think I will be breeding him again...he is father of many. But, I reserve the right to change my mind.

Buttercup is still cupped. I don't have a home for him. He spent some time at a friend's place while she tried to breed him, and got mauled by the female ... his poor fins shredded _AGAIN_. But, you know, I've noticed something: Injuries sustained during breeding seem to heal much faster than others ... his fins have grown back better than they were before I lent him out!

My wild tank is just about ready. I bought a lid, I bought some driftwood, and there's even more plants in there, now. There's two small pots for them to hide in, one in the front and one in the back. What do you think?


Elizabeth is feisty and eats with good appetite. Like Mr. Kitty, I think her breeding days are done ... but I do reserve the right to change my mind, later.

Catherine is looking good. I'm pleased with her. She may get another round in the breeding tank, although I am more likely to hold her back and re-breed Cygnus instead.

Cygnus is also looking well. He has completely recovered from his bout with SBD. He is quite the handsome fish...

Nimbus will probably be rehomed in Spring, once the weather has cleared up enough to make shipping safe. I have a friend that could use a good, well-formed HM yellow.

Hmmm...who have I left out? There are too many to name, at this point. They only get names if there's something about them that specifically stands out. I have so many...but if there's someone specifically that you're interested in, ask for an update and I will do my best. 

Oh! The puffers!

For a supposedly "territorial" fish, they sure do pal around a lot. They keep in groups of 3 with a couple wanderers, usually. Just like the Pandas, actually. My snail infestation has all but disappeared, including the MTS that supposedly nothing can eat. I have no idea if the MTS are dead or in hiding. Either way, that's fine by me.

The puffers are so cute! I think they are also eating molly babies. Which, honestly, is fine.


----------



## Nimble

Who is pretty little Nimbus headed off to?


----------



## hrutan

Kasey Clark, if she still needs a well formed yellow when the weather is warmer. She gave me miss Discord for free and I'd like to return the favor. Kasey has had a nasty, bad winter, too, so a couple free fish from friends would probably be a help at this point.


----------



## Nimble

Ah, yeah. She's working on her Yellows and Yellow Cambodians. She didn't happen to lose any stock because of the bad weather, did she?


----------



## hrutan

Yes. Her upstairs neighbor left an exterior door open. The drafts went through the hall, under the gap in her fish room door, and the temp plummeted. She plugged the hole, but she's lost a bunch of stock to velvet as a result.


----------



## Nimble

Damn Velvet. Well, I hope she appreciates the gift.

How is everyone holding up for you?


----------



## hrutan

I have one clamped juvie, no idea what's wrong. Put a drop of methylene blue in his cup and I'll check on him again tonight. Looks like he bit holes in his fins. I didn't have time to really doctor him, though.

Everyone else looks good.


----------



## Nimble

Hurray for healthy babies! Glad to hear that everything is going well over there. What are you up to now, like 100? Not counting babies and juvies?


----------



## hrutan

Oh, not nearly that many adults. I probably have around 20 adults (?). I haven't counted so... well. I've rehomed most of my "spare" fish although I have a few that are either waiting for matches or waiting for my friend to come choose which one she wants before the rest are rehomed.


----------



## hrutan

*I got a new phone*

For anyone waiting eagerly for a Mr. Kitty update...


----------



## Tress

WOW! He's looking great! How old is he now?


----------



## hrutan

I am not sure. I bought him in a pet shop last May. So he's probably pushing 12-18 months.


----------



## hrutan

Ooo, what do we have here?


----------



## Nimble

Double-Veil? Let's hope!

Or, it could be weird, and wind up with some kinda weird Double-HM. Branching genes are supposedly recessive, so you might get some coming back up.


----------



## KitDewStein

A cute baby betta is there 

Wait are there such things as double veil tails? o.o


----------



## Schmoo

It's a cutie-patootie!


----------



## hrutan

Yes, you can have double veils. It's going to take some time to get it so that it's attractive, though. Hehe.


----------



## KitDewStein

I can't to watch this one grow up


----------



## Aqua Aurora

Google results say yes! There are dt vt


----------



## MattsBettas

You can pretty much get doubletail anything because the gene doesn't affect how the fins form (ex: short fin, crowntail), it basically just makes the top mirror the bottom (which is why the dorsal fin is also enlarged). They're some of my favorites to watch grow up . 

Typically with fish that carry he gene the dorsal fin is longer, these fish are called doubletail genotypes or DTg.


----------



## hrutan

It's been a while, hasn't it? Nimble's post reminded me that it's been nearly three weeks for me, as well. I don't know why I haven't updated in such a long time. I guess I've just been tired. Work's been crazy, personal life's been crazy, and fish have been crazy.

I lost all my Cygnus x Catherine spawn and my re-pairing of Elizabeth and Primus to velvet. ALL of them. Well, that was depressing. But, every tragedy has a lesson in it somewhere, if you can figure out what to look for. Lesson of the day? Salt. 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Water changes. Growouts must be changed as frequently as cups. Never rely on a cycled filter. It doesn't matter if the readings are good; the water MUST be changed.

The doubletails are still swimming around in there. There's not very many of them. Maybe 10, tops. They are growing slowly, but they ARE growing. Since there are so few, I haven't been keeping a BBS hatchery going, and have been relying on frozen food. I was using an in-tank hatchery, but one of the fry managed to get inside it somehow and was getting tossed around like a leaf on a breeze, so it's out of the tank until they get too big to do that.

I put Cygnus and Catherine together again, and they decided they didn't like each other. They courted roughly for two days, slowly shredding each others' fins, and then eventually Cygnus had enough. I found him floating around on top of the IAL while Catherine patrolled below, all like "WHERE IS HE?"

:lol:

I wish I'd gotten a picture of that.

Right now I have a Cambodian / butterfly / orange dalmation VT male in with a Cambodian red VT female....pictured below. Wish me luck on that. If the male's body color is based on Cambodian rather than Marble, I may be able to get red male Cambodians out of that. They are rare as hens' teeth - most male Cambodians eventually turn red.

My Imbellis didn't make it. The female didn't thrive and ended up dying in three days, which was quite disappointing. Then the male decided to jump out. I don't know HOW he jumped out. The tank was covered, and there was craft mesh over the gap at the end of the lid and plastic wrap over the area with tubes coming out of the tank. I found Imbellis jerky a good 3 feet away.

When one of my friends heard, she offered me a pair of Smaragdina for free. They came in the mail today, and my friend actually sent me a trio, two females and a male!! I have them sitting in the warmest room at work, waiting for me to leave and take them home with me. They are faded from stress and looking cranky, hopefully they'll have colored up for me to take pictures before too long. I have a nice planted tank waiting and ready. These guys were raised in the local water, so hopefully they won't have the same stress and decline issues as the wild caught Imbellis.

Anyway. Here's my new pair, wish me luck.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Covering the entire tank in cling wrap seems the best for wilds (not sure if this is what you had). They are such adept jumpers it's like they can phase through anything. But I do cling wrap, then carefully cut and fold around the cords and airline tubing. I have not lost a fish to jumping since I started using cling wrap on my wild tanks.

Sorry about the female. Shipping can be such a rough process on these fish, especially if they have to come from overseas. I was going through a period where every shipment I had at least one fish DOA. 

Velvet is terrible, especially when it infects young fish. Based on previous experience, my particular wilds do not like the addition of aquarium salt, otherwise I would be tempted to use it. 

Good luck with your future spawns. Sucks losing fish, especially a whole lot of them in one go.


----------



## hrutan

My friend Yvonne Chaban has a tankful of Smaragdina, and when she heard that I'd lost both of my Imbellis, she offered me a trio - two females and a male. They arrived last Tuesday, spawned by Saturday, and have loads of dangling tails today. The male is quite aggressive about guarding his nest. I need to go pick up a good load of floating plants to create some hiding places, since it's quite obvious there's too much empty space in there. The other plants will fill in eventually, but not yet.

This is my male Smaragdina. The females are too busy hiding from him to make an appearance.

Can you see the tails?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Congrats on the spawn. Just be careful the two females don't pick off the fry once they become free-swimming, particularly the female whose eggs they are not. My stiktos female never touched her fry, but some wilds are terrible parents.


----------



## hrutan

I am a little concerned about that, yes. If this spawn vanishes, then I know I have a problem, and I'll make a back-up tank. I'm hoping a large amount of floating plants and hiding places will increase the likelihood of fry survival. Yvonne says she keeps a very large group in a 20 gallon - she says there are about 30 in there! - so I don't believe that fry-eating is a big issue. But, animals do change behavior when moved to a new environment.


----------



## hrutan

*An Update on Toothless.*

So...remember my little cucumber vampire?

*WHAT I WAS TOLD BEFORE BUYING A BABY PLECO:*

"When he gets big, he will be a bit of a bull in a china shop in your tank. You'll probably find plants floating around and have to put them back, if they aren't well-established."

"Be sure to use sturdy, fast growing plants, in case he nibbles between meals."

"Requires driftwood to rasp for good health."

"Prefers hiding places. Be sure to provide with cover."

*WHAT THEY ACTUALLY MEANT:*

"Kiss your nice, soil substrate tank goodbye, fool. He's going to fling the sand cap around like it's confetti, and burrow into the earth below. Then he's going to move his driftwood and terra cotta pot into position above him to make a lean-to, and hide the entrance with your java ferns. The dirt's going to separate into a floating layer at the top and a thick, filthy mess over your sand. After a while, there will be no dirt at all. The landscaping will look much like the aftermath of a wildfire, followed by a flood. Oh, and your plants...? Well... good luck."

All I can do is laugh.


----------



## Fenghuang

Ahaha. Yes, plecoes are liked that... I thought I would attach some anubias to a piece of driftwood to spruce up the big tank back at my parents' place. Well, the pleco had other ideas. He ate the anubias. And they say those are indestructible. :lol:

That is a magnificent pleco though.


----------



## Tress

Bahahaha Naughty boy xD


----------



## Schmoo

xD Silly pleco~


----------



## Aqua Aurora

I see a leopard sailfin pleco! I miss mine (donated to a group with a jumbo tank).. but then I remember how much work it was cleaning up after him, and why I'll never buy another pleco (ever). Mine ate every plant in the tank including the supposed "pleco resistant/safe" plants.. Had to use an aquapontic NFT system above the tank (garden with tank water flowing through a large pvc pipe from filter, no soil) to deal with the nitrate levels. You know he's going to get to 18" and need 200g tank to dilute all that bioload. Where's he at for length now? 8"?
edit: hmm wait I think I spoke to you before.. you planned to put him in a giant pond (300g i think)? or am I confusing you with someone else


----------



## hrutan

Aqua Aurora said:


> I see a leopard sailfin pleco! I miss mine (donated to a group with a jumbo tank).. but then I remember how much work it was cleaning up after him, and why I'll never buy another pleco (ever). Mine ate every plant in the tank including the supposed "pleco resistant/safe" plants.. Had to use an aquapontic NFT system above the tank (garden with tank water flowing through a large pvc pipe from filter, no soil) to deal with the nitrate levels. You know he's going to get to 18" and need 200g tank to dilute all that bioload. Where's he at for length now? 8"?
> edit: hmm wait I think I spoke to you before.. you planned to put him in a giant pond (300g i think)? or am I confusing you with someone else


You're confusing me with someone else, but that's all good. I'm pretty sure that Toothless is actually a Gold Spot pleco, L001 or L022, and should top out at about 12 inches. We'll be upgrading to a bigger, more appropriately landscaped tank later this year to accommodate his size.


----------



## Aqua Aurora

Ah I didn't realize good spots had such long dorsals, looks so much like a sailfin, and the fin spot markings (body not so much) look like leopard sailfin.


----------



## hrutan

I am not 100% sure, but he was sold to me as an "orange spot pleco" which me most certainly is NOT. He does, however, closely match the images for the gold spot pleco - a similar name, especially if there's a language barrier from the seller.

If he turns out to get bigger, well...we'll just get a bigger tank.


----------



## hrutan

Phew. Changing the cups today took only 1 1/4 hours. I still have some tanks to do before work, but it's time for a break... haha.

I thought it would be fun to show you guys something...

There's only 1 or maybe 2 fish in this batch that I think really are show quality, but the first show's in 2 weeks. TWO. WEEKS. I've carded all of the males that I have (except one runt) and I'm moving them to an accelerated feeding / change schedule in the hopes of getting one or two more. The paperwork's due on the 29th. I don't need to worry about shipping - the GSB show is local (woo!) so I am going to hand-carry my precious babies down to Long Beach.

The individual fish is SO going to start going through red loss and look like he's "melting," just in time for the show...


----------



## Fenghuang

Lots of fishies. :-D Which spawn is that last cutie out of?


----------



## hrutan

They are from the Primus x Nimbus spawn. I think I did that in November.

One of those little cuties is Greenapp1es' fish. He is an OHM, and the best in the lot. A big shout-out to her for letting me hold on to him for the show season!


----------



## Fenghuang

hrutan said:


> They are from the Primus x Nimbus spawn. I think I did that in November.
> 
> One of those little cuties is Greenapp1es' fish. He is an OHM, and the best in the lot. A big shout-out to her for letting me hold on to him for the show season!


That is nice of her. Most people would be chomping at the bit to receive their fish, especially pretty babies like yours.

How is F2 of the HMxVT line doing?


----------



## hrutan

The F2 is growing ... slowly. Very slowly. I am actually pretty frustrated. They get SBD on and off, and some of them don't seem to be thriving. The biggest one is the length of my thumbnail. I am just starting to see hints of red in their caudals.

Giving that some context, my handle on Aquabid is "Tinyhands." **sighs**

I don't post pictures of them, because there aren't very many in that 10 gallon, and my camera doesn't like to focus on the fish. It's much more interested in the plant or thermometer or whatever.


----------



## Greenapp1es

Little guy is adorable. I hope he does well for you.


----------



## Fenghuang

Hrutan, you said you were breeding for black BF VTs, right? Not exactly the same thing, but this Aquastar fish made me think of that. Just wanted to show you if you have never seen.


----------



## hrutan

That fish is pretty, and fascinating.


----------



## hrutan

An acquaintance of mine found two bettas on the side of the street in Pasadena. They were in a small, dingy divided tank. Both are veil tails. One is red, the other is blue. The blue looks like he has a nasty case of fin rot. I'll be taking possession of them tomorrow. After they are both healed up from their ordeals and free from illness, they will need permanent homes. I don't have room for any more pet fish.

Seriously, folks. Who does that?


----------



## Greenapp1es

:-(

Poor babies...


----------



## VivianKJean

omg those poor things


----------



## autojoy

W-why...! Would anyone do that! (( This is the second time I've witnessed this happen (through this forum) in a year. I'm glad you guys are out there taking care of these poor babies


----------



## hrutan

I don't know. It is so bizarre to me. If someone abandons a dog or cat, as heinous an act as that is, at least they can lie to themselves and believe it can hunt for its own food. But there's no fooling yourself with a fish. They left them to die.

The guy who found them is a very caring gentleman. A priest, in fact. He knows he will be unable to give them proper care, so we're doing a bit of a relay to get them over to my place. I can't wait to meet them.


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## hrutan

Blue already has two people interested in him. I haven't even gotten him home yet and people are lining up!


----------



## Nyri

hrutan said:


> I don't know. It is so bizarre to me. If someone abandons a dog or cat, as heinous an act as that is, at least they can lie to themselves and believe it can hunt for its own food. But there's no fooling yourself with a fish. They left them to die.
> 
> The guy who found them is a very caring gentleman. A priest, in fact. He knows he will be unable to give them proper care, so we're doing a bit of a relay to get them over to my place. I can't wait to meet them.


I've never heard of anyone leaving a fish on the actual side of the road. I used to live where people would dump any animal they didn't want... and we saw pretty much everything excluding fish. My favorite was a 9 foot burmese python... poor thing wouldn't have lasted long (it was in Colorado) but thankfully we got her to a safe place. 

Poor fish are so lucky that they were found by someone who cared, and that they're with you now. I'm glad you already have people interested, too!


----------



## Schmoo

Those poor fish! D:< Gosh, people make me so mad...

By the way, total side note, but is that a Kyo plushie on your shelf? xD


----------



## hrutan

Yes lol


----------



## Schmoo

hrutan said:


> Yes lol


Yessssss. I love Fruits Basket, lol. Hatori and Hatsu.


----------



## JHatchett

Ayame was my favorite. :B


----------



## TripleChrome

hrutan said:


> I don't know. It is so bizarre to me. If someone abandons a dog or cat, as heinous an act as that is, at least they can lie to themselves and believe it can hunt for its own food. But there's no fooling yourself with a fish. They left them to die.
> 
> The guy who found them is a very caring gentleman. A priest, in fact. He knows he will be unable to give them proper care, so we're doing a bit of a relay to get them over to my place. I can't wait to meet them.


Why in the world would someone do that? That is just wrong that they did that to the bettas. But at least someone found them. Poor things. It has actually happened where I live, too, surprisingly. It never happens where I am. When we were having bad storms the other day, my friend from school found a little girl in a convenient store parking lot just sitting there in a really tiny cup, smaller than Petsmart's betta cups. I swear, some people these days do not want to care for their animals, and I don't think it is right.


----------



## hrutan

Well, they are both alive and in good health. Blue's fins will heal in time, and Red made it through unscathed. I have a home for Blue, and potentially Red as well, already.


----------



## hrutan

Both Blue and Red have been found new homes. Blue is low living with Balimint. Red has yet to be shipped out, but he'll get to go home, soon.

In sadder news, Buttercup passed away this morning. I have no idea how old he was, but sadly he developed tumors that took his life. I'd been nerving myself up to euthanize him, but he chose to go before I could make myself brave enough.


----------



## Nimble

Which one was Buttercup?


----------



## hrutan

He was the fish I kept on my desk at work at my last job. Fish #3, a white platinum butterfly. Most notable story is when he jumped the divided into Mr. kitty's side of the tank and got the snarf beat out of him.


----------



## Nimble

Ah, okay. Shame to hear about that.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I'm sorry about buttercup, but that clears up a new tank, so with every down there's a hidden up.


----------



## hrutan

Yeah, I am slowly paring down to breeding fish only...


----------



## Schmoo

So sorry to hear about Buttercup, hrutan. :c


----------



## hrutan

Red Rescue is off to his new home. Everyone cross their fingers and think good thoughts about his safe arrival. He's been though enough and deserves his happy ending.


----------



## Athra

I just spent the last couple days reading all the way through your journal... I find your fish and spawns fascinating! I won't ever breed bettas (don't have the money/space/patience) and yet reading about others breeding is so dang interesting to me!


----------



## hrutan

Goodness gracious, it's been a long time since I have updated. I always seem to be so busy that it is difficult to do more than jot quick replies in threads, if I have time to read them.

The fish population ebbs and flows. I had to sell a large batch to the LPS to make room. No twinges of conscience there - they change the water every other day in the "small" cups, which are easily three times the size of one of those little pathetic PetCo cups, put IAL in the jars, and invested in HEAT TAPE, which is simply incredible to me. The halfmoons and fancies are in quarter gallon deli cups, and the giants are in half gallon glass jars.

Man, I love that place.

_ANYWAY_.

Yvonne Chaban, our beloved chapter head for Golden State Bettas, moved out of state and left the club in my hands. This was a bit of a stunner for me - I have only just (this month) been keeping bettas for a full year. Now I have to plan meetings, consider discussion topics, and even plan next Spring's show. Whaaat?

Okay, okay. Gianne S., chairperson of the California Betta Society (our Northern cousin), says she thinks she got elected while she was in the bathroom. So at least my election, which went something like this: "I need someone reliable to take over when I leave. **ahem* *meaningful stare**" was a LITTLE more voluntary. :lol:

Would you believe I've had Mr. Kitty for a year now? :-D His "birthday" is in the last two weeks of June. The little nutter is still with me, and fierce, too! He bites the dropper at feeding times, and gnashes his teeth against the side of his kritter keeper. CLACK CLACK CLACK. Who would have thought he could make such a racket?

I'm sad to have lost Buttercup. I lost five fish over the course of two weeks. From a breeding perspective, that damage comes down to about 10% of the stock I had before I sold a bunch off. OUCH. Turns out, the tap water's quality is swinging wildly, and it all of the sudden started coming out of the tap at 1 PPM ammonia. Priming it and churning it in a water aging tank for a couple days did nothing to clear it up (which it SHOULD have), and I didn't know the problem until I started losing fish.

Now I am buying reverse osmosis water from the kiosk in front of the local grocery store at 25 cents a gallon, and then re-mineralizing it with Seachem Replenish. I go through about 45-60 gallons a week. More than one person has suggested that I buy a home system, but the absolute rock bottom cheapest is $150...and that thing is so slow it takes 15 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket.

Did I mention that I'm busy?



(Incidentally, Photobucket's pop up actually got me to look at the tab when I uploaded that image, because the website title started with "Shop Brazilian Virgin" - Turned out to be about hair. I am not sure what I wanted, but I am disappointed by that.)

**drumroll** It's time for ... a baby update!

Remember those double tails? Would you believe they are STILL TOO SMALL TO JAR??

What the _heck_.

Not only are they growing INCREDIBLY slowly, it looks like all of the double tails have spinal kinks, making them unbreedable. I am probably going to have to cull them. There are also still babies in there that are only the length of my thumbnail.

They are Four. Months. Old. I'm trying, guys, I am _trying_.

I do have one fish that grew faster than the rest. It is dark, dark, _dark _blue, with a triband butterfly tail - blue, then red, then cellophane. Yeah, you're a keeper, kid.

I am not going to breed for double tails again. The growth rate of this spawn could be a sheer ugly fluke, but the spinal deformity rate ... one breeder I know says her kill rate is 80%. This isn't worth it. I love my fish, even the ones I sell to the pet shop. I don't want to put myself in a circumstance where I need to kill more fish for defects than I would in a normal spawn.

I've also decided that I don't really enjoy halfmoons all that much, and with my lack of both space and time, will not be breeding them any more.

On the GOOD baby news front:
I have two spawns going right now aside from the double tails. I have true dark red (as opposed to Cambodian based), from Elizabeth and Chili Pepper (one of the rescues I got from Moonshadow), and I have oranges from a nameless carrot-colored male, and a pale orange female purchased from Therakanbettas.

Both of the spawns have me beside myself with excitement. True dark red, without iridescence, is not easy to find. Most reds have been mixed with Cambodian, giving a bright, less intense color that lacks any black expression. Those are what are commonly referred to as "Super Red," and they are not in the slightest bit super, as far as I am concerned. I expect all of the babies to have full black scale edging (red pineapple), which is something that I will select to reduce in coming generations. I absolutely refuse to add bright red to the mix. The black expression might be a show fault, but showing is a game of least faults, not of NO faults, and the weakening of the intense true red color is a sad, sad cost of adding blonde.

Orange is a difficult color to maintain. Most oranges come in one of two varieties - "Wait, are you sure that isn't red?" and "That's pretty washed out. Looks more like a dark yellow than anything else."

Well, my females _are _washed out, although definitely orange. But months of intense searching rustled up three bright, carrot colored males for me. So INTO THE SPAWN TUB WITH YOU, and let's hope the babies get Dad's color. In the future, I need to mix one of the orange offspring to one of the red offspring, even though it will add the bright gene to that, so that I can cross the resulting offspring back to orange. From my research, this seems to be the best way to keep the color vivid.

I can't think of anything more to say at the moment. Wish me luck!


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Wishing luck


----------



## hrutan

A sad start to the day:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=565634


----------



## hrutan

Well, the babies have made it about a week so far. That's a milestone worth noting. I think I have about a hundred in each spawn. Hoo boy is that a lot of babies. I need to get another 20gallon tall and suitable filter for when they get big...I really am hopeful that they will live this time...


----------



## Strawberry12

I'm sorry for your loss, hrutan


----------



## hrutan

Thank you. Phoenix was an amazing fish. There will never be another like him.


----------



## Crossroads

I so sorry for your losses hrutan. Seems that everyone's having troubles. I was looking forward to the warmer weather but it seems I'm doing worse now than in winter. I lost my marble EE to a heater malfunction. Tank hit 100. Killed my EE, all algae and plants and gave one of the boys in the tank dropsy. Thankfully, doses of epsom have been helping but his swim bladder seems permanently damaged. The other guy in the tank is perfectly fine? He got beat up by Red so his fins were all jagged, had a sudden boost in fin regrowth? I lost my parking lot rescue for no apparent reason, and I've broke down two of my tanks after discovering even though I cleaned and sanitized, that whatever killed the previous inhabitants also was killing the new ones.


----------



## BlueLacee

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry tht this is happening to you. It will get better though, there is always a bottom befor your life sky rockets


----------



## hrutan

That's awful!

For me I am CONVINCED it was the water. The spawns I have in remineralized RO are doing splendid. Sudden deaths knock on wood seem to be stopped too.


----------



## Bikeridinguckgirl14

Sorry for your losses guys, for me the heat is actually helping mesmer regain his eyesight (cataracts? Milky eyes?) But I guess we aren't all so lucky


----------



## hrutan

ATTENTION! ATTENTION!

We have made it to the 2 week mark without a sudden and horrible mass die-off of babies! WOOO!

There have been a few deaths, but not too many. There were a few that never seemed to figure out how to eat, and one fry that is grossly deformed in the red tank. I haven't spotted him in a little bit, he may have died before I could catch and remove him.

There are less reds than I expected, which I am not in the slightest bit upset about. I'm guessing maybe 30? The ones that are in there are nice and big and healthy. I can see rays in their little caudal fins. I also STRONGLY suspect that the tiniest ones may have been cannibalized, although it's hard to say, really. But one of the largest fry had red in its belly before I fed them BBS for the first time...

As for the oranges. Well, they are hard to see, because they are so light colored, but that spawn looks pretty big! I will have a better idea when I move the spawn from the little 5 gallon tank to a 10 gallon, which I hope to accomplish tonight.

The babies are on BBS now. After I move the oranges and clean both tanks, I will try to give a picture update.


----------



## hrutan

*Baby photos*

Pineapple Red VT x Pineapple Red VT, 6/17/2015. Hatch date roughly 5/31/2015. So, 2.5 weeks old.


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## hrutan

I am beyond excited about this purchase from Aquabid. Look at that GREEN in video #2.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettaswt1434682104

My Green Girl (Macha's sister) is ill, and despite medication may not recover. I've been looking for a replacement for that dark forest green, and those look like the fish for me.

I bought 6 pairs - one green pair for me, and 5 other pairs - 4 for friends, 1 for a club raffle next month.

The seller said he had included a special surprise green fish for me. Whaaat! :shock:

I. CAN'T. WAIT.

Oh! And in other news. Next week, Wednesday through Sunday, I am off to Indianapolis to meet other fishy folk at the IBC Area 1 convention. This is going to be fun!!


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## Greenapp1es

If you get a dark forest green spawn I'm probably going to have to find some extra space in my tanks for one. Just so you know. *sigh*


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## hrutan

Ha-ha, well let's see what happens. This is all experimental.


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## Nimble

How did you enjoy the convention?


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## hrutan

I had a wonderful time at the convention. It was as though I had gone to a family reunion, where I simply had not met my family members yet. Everyone was very nice. It's a close-knit group that is very welcoming of new people.

The highlight of the convention, for me, was the hospitality room in the evenings. Everyone so inclined would gather in the hospitality room, and we would chat, eat snacks, and do silly things like have a bagging contest (Gianne S. won with 27 seconds from start to finish, double bagging), and get smashed with a rather liberal amount of alcohol.

I got to meet Dr. Gene Lucas, who is an incredible gentleman, very kind and willing to chat. He asked for help learning about Elephant Ears inheritance patterns (check out my post in the Breeding Bettas section).

The auction was amazing. The show fish were beautiful. The awards ceremony was lovely - Former leader of Golden State Bettas and current vice president of the IBC Yvonne Chaban was awarded "Better Person of the Year," and Golden State Bettas member and former vice president of the IBC Karen Mac Auley won the Gene Lucas Congressional Award of Merit. Wow!

Here are a few photos!

Tables set up for auction.

Karen's trophy. That was how I broke the news to her via text. ;-)

The large group of people has Midwest Betta Club, with IBC President Gerald Griffin in the striped shirt on the end.

Dr. Gene Lucas filling in a drawing that will later be donated for auction.

Dr. Gene Lucas beginning a brief lecture on genetics.

Gerald Griffin during a lecture about wild betta species.

Dr. Gene Lucas telling us about one of the more memorable conventions. Apparently there was a murder at the next hotel over...

Rain. I live in an area of severe drought and had forgotten about this phenomenon known as "weather." I didn't even bring a coat.

Someone set up a tank in the hospitality room bathroom. Umm. Good thing Yvonne found a condom in the couch (YIKES lol. At least it was still in the wrapper!) because that mermaid looks like she's getting into trouble.

We were throwing fish bags around, pretending to be the USPS... :-?

HALF of the IBC store. I bought a bag of 50 IAL, golden pearls, fish bags, a disk hatchery for BBS/Artemia, and I can't remember what-all else. Oh, and some Purple Moscow guppies.

(the guppies pissed me off ... whoever brought them didn't bother to supply a heater or a bubbler, and they were dying. I took home two females and a male - the male didn't make it, but one of the girls has already had babies)

There's nothing like walking up to a closed door. Something momentous was happening.

I met a lot of truly wonderful people.

There were a lot of beautiful fish to see.

I can't wait until next year. What a fantastic welcome to the IBC!


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## Hallyx

hrutan said:


> the tap water's quality is swinging wildly, and it all of the sudden started coming out of the tap at 1 PPM ammonia. Priming it and churning it in a water aging tank for a couple days did nothing to clear it up (which it SHOULD have), and I didn't know the problem until I started losing fish.


Nah, it shouldn't have. Prime's ammonia protection starts evaporating right away and is gone in a day or two. Aging water just wastes Prime. 

I wish Kordon would get back to me about Amquel Plus. This stuff totally removes ammonia -- so they say. I'm not yet convinced it leaves anything for the nitrifying bacteria to oxidize while cycling.


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## hrutan

If it totally removes the ammonia, what would the bacteria have? Indeed, that's a good question.


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## Hallyx

Indeed it is. They don't have the customer service oriented website that Seachem has. Their site claims that bacteria and plants can use the fragments that Amquel Plus breaks the nitrogenous compounds into. But I remain skeptical. I guess I have to prod them again for an answer.


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## hrutan

What is scary is when the company cannot provide an answer, suggesting either a secret (fine, but tell us it is a secret) or they don't actually know...


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## andakin

hrutan said:


> (the guppies pissed me off ... whoever brought them didn't bother to supply a heater or a bubbler, and they were dying.


That's the reality of fish auctions. They're bagged and left to sit around on the table all day.

Nonetheless, sounds like it was a fun event to attend.


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## hrutan

The guppies were stuck in a tank with access to outlets in the IBC store, rather than bagged and waiting. Giving them basic care would have been easy. Everyone was bothered by it, but no one had the tools to do anything for them.


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## Hallyx

hrutan said:


> What is scary is when the company cannot provide an answer, suggesting either a secret (fine, but tell us it is a secret) or they don't actually know...


Seachem has proprietary info; they say so. Sometimes they admit they don't know. Sometimes their explanations and answers are opaque or ambiguous, mostly because of their apparently weak language skills. But they try. They're set up for it.

I hadn't dealt with Kordon before (a Canadian company). I just sent them a perfunctory little note. Next time I'll be a little more direct and aggressive. I'll withhold judgment until I hear from them.


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## hrutan

I'd love to hear about any reply you get. I know some breeders that absolutely swear by AmQuell in their fry tanks.


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## kittenfish

hrutan said:


> The guppies were stuck in a tank with access to outlets in the IBC store, rather than bagged and waiting. Giving them basic care would have been easy. Everyone was bothered by it, but no one had the tools to do anything for them.


Don't they go through worse in shipping? How do they survive that? Was it very cold in there?


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## hrutan

It was super cold in there, and there were too many fish in the tank. We weren't sure if it was the chill or the lack of oxygen or what, but the ones I took were fine when I got them out and in clean water and into a warmer room.


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## hrutan

I have been growing a planted tank for a few months now - maybe three? For my betta smaragdina. Not sure how long it's been, actually, but the first post of the smaragdina is two weeks after I started it.

Anyway, progress report.


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## BeautifulBettaFishies

Poor guppies! ):

Wow your planted tank looks fab!  nice and dense.


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