# Mame puts two white fish together, hopes for the best (White HMs)



## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

This will be my first time breeding. So, I don't actually have the fish yet, but I thought it would be nice to write down all of the preparations I'm doing and such...plus, I think I'm boring my family with the details. ("I'm going to breed my favorite kind of betta! I'm so excited!" "...ugh, more fish?")

So, I impulse-offered on this guy on Ebay:









I really was NOT expecting to get him. He was for sale for $79 and I offered $15. Logged on to discover that I won him...:shock: He's really pretty (and you bet I'm extremely excited :-D). His fins are a tad bit uneven, but he looks pretty young. Also has a couple red splotches, and his eyes are a little cloudy, but that's to be expected for opaques, really. I think a nice female should cancel that out. 

So, now I need to get a female. I'm considering one of these:









...but only if they don't get sniped or bid up. 1 day 10 hours left. >.< I'm really hoping I can get one. They're absolutely beautiful.

As for other preparations, here's what I need to do before the fish arrive:
-Get the spawning tank in order. Probably needs to be resealed. 
-Get microworm culture, IAL, and brine shrimp eggs
-Get an area set up for breeding (will be completely separate from my other tanks)
-Get jars and grow-out tank (might wait until after they spawn)

Other than that, I think I'm good. I have two tank setups ready to go, an extra heater and DIY sponge filter for the spawn tank, and foods for the parents while I'm conditioning them and such. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. 

:blueyay:


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

oh wow...i hope the spawn goes well! They are absolutely beautiful!


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

One of those females should be good. Looking forward to a good flare pic of that male. An asking price of $79 is a bit excessive, so it's not that surprising that your offer was accepted. Looks like a $25-$30 fish to me & fin damage lowers the price, but hard to say without that flare.

He's a handsome fellow. Opaque whites are not easy to find. His "ears" look on the large size. Maybe you could find a nice EE female to cross him with and work that angle?


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks!  I really hope it goes well too. I'd just love to have a bunch of white babies swimming around.  

I'm going to just buy the female right now. Costs a few bucks more, but then I don't have to worry about her getting sniped like every other white betta, lol. And she's absolutely gorgeous - will post a link to the breeder's video in a minute.

Edit - thanks, hrutan! Yeah, I agree, $79 is way too much for him. I'm looking forward to seeing him in real life. There weren't really any good flare pics of him, but he looks like he might be an OHM, based on one of the other photos. Hard to really tell, though. And he does look like he's at least part EE, so that's a huge plus!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Bought her! :-D Both fish should be here on Wednesday. Here's the breeder's video of the female that I mentioned...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycOrsgNof0w

The breeder was really nice. Sent me a message within 10 minutes of buying the betta, telling me when they'll be shipping the betta, and asking if I need a cold pack. (We've had nice 70-80 F weather, so I think she'll be OK.) I just hope that the shipping goes well, since there's no DOA guarantee for her. >.<


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Look at that flare!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

hrutan said:


> Look at that flare!


I know! :-D She's a cute little one. I'm imagining her doing that around the spawn tank in a few weeks. :-D It'll be nice to have a female betta again. I haven't had one in years.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Alright, so I've purchased brine shrimp (cost $6.50 for 6 grams at the LFS...need to find a cheaper source) and a microworm culture. Have had the 5g spawn tank filled up for a few days, and it doesn't look like it's leaking...hmm. Maybe the filter was leaking or something when I was using it as a divided tank. I'm going to keep it filled and running while I'm conditioning the parents, just to make sure. I can get a nice population of infusoria going that way, too.  

Now Wednesday just needs to come faster! Assuming the sellers ship out the bettas on Monday, they should both be arriving at the same time. (How romantic.) I may or may not be getting an extra free male from one breeder. :shock:


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yay! I can't wait!! I'm subscribing :blueyay:


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks! :-D I was actually just reading through your spawn log. Found it very interesting.  How are your babies doing now?


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Their doing great! Their still growing too! Can't wait till their fully grown


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

That's great! I'm happy to hear!  If they look anything like their parents, I'm sure they'll be gorgeous.

Today I came across a "so you think you want to breed? Well, I'll tell you, it's horrible" type of post on another forum. Someone said that he was over $2000 into his FIRST spawn. I'm trying to figure out how a spawn would cost two grand...:shock: Maybe if you bought two $150 bettas and had them $35 express shipped, and you had to buy 300 jars, and you got a 50 gallon grow out tank or something...and maybe everyone got sick and needed pricy antibiotics once or twice. Or you just spent $2000 building a fish room. :-D I'm up for that, actually. :lol:


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Well, it can certainly cost a lot, especially if you have a sophisticated setup. Happily, unless something goes bad, the equipment doesn't magically go away when the babies are grown. I've spent around $500, I think, and haven't bought heat tape yet, or the cork to line the shelf under the heat tape, or jars.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

So, the parents are here! :-D They arrived alive, and they're now swimming around their tanks and eating nicely. 

One of the sellers did, indeed, include an extra female, and I completely forgot that they said they might do that until about half an hour after I acclimated the pair. There was a little stressed, blue marble female (I think?) in there. So, she's in the hospital tank for now, partially because she's still stressed and clamped, and partially because I currently have no where else to put her. lol

Anyway, the pair's doing great. Honor (the male) is huge. Seriously, he's considerably larger than my two big pet bettas, Opalo and Mr. Gold, who I thought were large. (Poor Virtue. :lol He's gorgeous, though, and he's definitely a halfmoon. Aggressive little fellow, too. I literally witnessed him flare at, attack, and eat a small snail. (Poor Virtue. :shock He's also been attacking the bubbles from his airstone for several hours. :shock:

Virtue is a sweet little one too. She's extremely adorable. She has a round little face and big, dark eyes. She looks so much healthier than any females I've seen at Petco. 

I also got the microworm culture. It came with a little plastic container, so I put about a cup of fresh oatmeal with some yeast in there, then mixed in the culture. I'm hoping I didn't mess up. 

Anyway, here's photos! I know they're a bit blurry. They were all swimming around too fast to get good photos. I'll make them flare for some better ones tomorrow.

Here's Honor. He's not actually this pink. >.< 









Here's little Virtue:









And here's the extra betta. I honestly don't know what I'll do with her. I think I'll name her Lucky, since I almost threw out the package she was in. :shock:


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## MissBetta1 (Oct 26, 2014)

MameJenny said:


> So, the parents are here! :-D They arrived alive, and they're now swimming around their tanks and eating nicely.
> 
> One of the sellers did, indeed, include an extra female, and I completely forgot that they said they might do that until about half an hour after I acclimated the pair. There was a little stressed, blue marble female (I think?) in there. So, she's in the hospital tank for now, partially because she's still stressed and clamped, and partially because I currently have no where else to put her. lol
> 
> ...


(That poor snail!)

They're all gorgeous. And your little extra Lucky is beautiful blue. I can't wait to read your spawn journey. Good luck! \o/


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Lucky is a good name. Hehe.


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## Kdowg2121 (Oct 5, 2014)

Subscribing. Can't wait to see the spawn!


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

awe! good thing you didnt throw her away! i cant wait to see the babies!!!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks for the subscriptions!  Yeah, I'm glad I didn't throw her out too. She's a really cute little fish now that she's settled in. I figured out that she's a turquoise marble dragonscale HMPK. She even builds tiny bubble nests all over the tank. I was thinking she was male because of that, but I've been looking at photos of plakat males, and she definitely doesn't look like them. (I'm glad I'm breeding halfmoons. Sexing young plakats must be nightmarish.)

The pair is doing great.  I've been feeding them three times a day with high-protein foods and Omega One pellets. Honor is unusually picky about food, and it took him a few days to figure out what to do with pellets. He has a very peculiar way of eating. He has to watch his food for a good 30 seconds or so, circle it a few times, and then lunge forward and attack it. (He looks like a tiny shark. :lol His aim isn't good either, so he usually ends up lunging three or four times for each piece of food. lol

I split my microworm culture in two. My second culture is doing much better than the first, for some reason. I'm going to get one more going before I spawn the pair. Also, I think I finally got a functional hatchery going for the brine shrimp, so that's good.  

I'm very excited for the spawn too. Strange to think that, fingers crossed, I'll have actual baby bettas swimming around in a couple weeks. I'm going to get the spawn going on Wednesday.


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## Rosalinds (Feb 15, 2014)

Hello fellow Colorado betta person! 

Oh man, Honor sounds like a beast! A very handsome beast though.  And Virtue (love the theme btw  is so sweet and adorable. I hope they play nice and have a lovely spawn!

I'll be watching this thread for babies.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

If you feel up to it, you might breed Lucky to Honor. It'd be interesting to see what pops out from that. And since you'd already have bred Honor to Virtue, it won't affect their line. You might even be able to breed out some blue/turquoise long-finned Halfmoons... if you're lucky. Yes, the pun was semi-intentional.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Rosalinds said:


> Hello fellow Colorado betta person!
> 
> Oh man, Honor sounds like a beast! A very handsome beast though.  And Virtue (love the theme btw  is so sweet and adorable. I hope they play nice and have a lovely spawn!
> 
> I'll be watching this thread for babies.


Hello! :-D Yeah, he's a funny little fish. Gorgeous, too.  I'm also really hoping that they play nice - I'm a bit nervous with a male as large and aggressive as Honor! And thanks for the compliment on the names. I'm going to continue the theme for my white HM line until I run out of words. :lol: 

Thanks for watching this thread. :-D



Nimble said:


> If you feel up to it, you might breed Lucky to Honor. It'd be interesting to see what pops out from that. And since you'd already have bred Honor to Virtue, it won't affect their line. You might even be able to breed out some blue/turquoise long-finned Halfmoons... if you're lucky. Yes, the pun was semi-intentional.


I've actually thought of that! If the spawn goes well and Honor is a good father, I might breed him to Lucky. I'd love to see what the babies would look like, considering that Lucky looks like a mostly colored-in marble. I'll probably wait until the babies grow up, though, so it won't be until maybe March or so, assuming my first spawn attempt goes well. 

(And I liked the pun, lol.  )


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

will you be selling the fry?


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

kjg1029 said:


> will you be selling the fry?


Probably, yes.  I'll most likely keep a few females and the nicest male for myself, and then sell the rest. I'd love for them all to go to members on here, though I did find a LFS that can take extras.


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

oh sweet! im totally interested! i hope it works out!


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

Yeah sAme here also I just purchase a white dumbo male HM and the female is gonna come in a month cause she's still small but I'd be interested the you babys when you sell them


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## Schmoo (Oct 3, 2014)

Your pair is stunning! So is Lucky. What a cute little surprise!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

kjg1029 said:


> oh sweet! im totally interested! i hope it works out!


I'm happy to hear that, thank you! 



BettaBoy51 said:


> Yeah sAme here also I just purchase a white dumbo male HM and the female is gonna come in a month cause she's still small but I'd be interested the you babys when you sell them


Ooh, will you be breeding your pair, too?  I'd love to see photos of them when you get them. Thanks for the interest! 



Schmoo said:


> Your pair is stunning! So is Lucky. What a cute little surprise!


Thank you! I think adorable free bettas are my favorite type of surprise. :lol:

Also, I just read this article. It's a bit long, and some of the charts are pretty complex, but I thought it was very interesting...it's about the creation of white opaque bettas. http://www.bettysplendens.com/creation-of-a-new-breed----the-snow-white-betta.html


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

I introduced the pair today! :-D I was going to wait until Wednesday, but I realized that I'll be pretty busy on Thursday and Friday, and I wanted to make sure I was around to watch the bettas when they're together. I put Virtue in a breeder box, and stuck both of them in the 5g at around noon. They started wiggling and flaring at each other within 2 1/2 hours, so I let Virtue out. 

They've spent most of the afternoon dancing, flaring, and chasing each other. Honor's been working on a massive bubblenest...he wore out Virtue a bit by making her inspect it after every 2-3 bubbles. :lol: She's starting to approach the nest more though, and she keeps charging at him and flaring. I think they'll probably - fingers crossed - spawn by tomorrow.  I took a video of their courtship behavior - I'll post it once I figure out how to get it from my old phone to my new computer.


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

yay! cant wait to see them! lol


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Well, no babies yet. Honor spent all day building bubblenests all over the tank. Virtue eventually started looking a little tired, and she stopped wiggle-dancing with him when he flared at her. He was still wiggling, flirting, and trying to get her interested...and biting her when she wasn't. I was expecting the same today, but now SHE'S the one who's wiggling and flaring, and he's the worn-out betta who's swimming away from her. They also spend large amounts of time just swimming around and interacting like community bettas. :shock: I'm hoping this is all normal. I've read that spawning can take days or even weeks, so I'm trying to be patient.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

It took two days for mine. I've heard anywhere from 12 hours to a full week. After that you'll want to start trying gimmicks. At least they're flirting!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Yeah, I'm happy that they're at least flirting and behaving nicely. No torn fins or injuries so far either, thank goodness. I figure that if they're alternating which betta is interested, they're bound to both be interested for a few minutes eventually, right? lol


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Well, what I noticed was each night seemed to initiate a different phase in their behavior. When we put them in, they danced and then played tag. The next day, the male was showing her his nest, then getting scared and chasing her away. The morning after that, they were wrapping.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

That sounds a lot like what happened with mine! When I put them together, they immediately danced and flared for a few hours. Then he kept showing her his nest, and she kept swimming away. Then they started with the behavior I mentioned before. Hopefully mine are on the same track as yours.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

I think they might be getting ready to start wrapping. :blueyay: Virtue keeps swimming up to Honor really fast with her fins clamped when he's under the bubblenest, then she flips on her side while she headbutts him. :shock:


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## Kithy (Nov 21, 2012)

MameJenny said:


> I think they might be getting ready to start wrapping. :blueyay: Virtue keeps swimming up to Honor really fast with her fins clamped when he's under the bubblenest, then she flips on her side while she headbutts him. :shock:


xD She's going "come onnnnn let's put some babies in there!"


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

LOL Kithy!

They officially started wrapping a few minutes ago! They're doing it over and over again now. No eggs yet. Honor had a little trouble the first few times. He kept wrapping around her face. :lol: (This is how to get your ventrals bitten off...)


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Yay!!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Virtue's been a nice mother so far. She made maybe a dozen eggs over the course of five or six wraps. She deposited all of them (plus a few bits of sand, lol) into the bubblenest. Meanwhile, Honor is just wiggling under the bubblenest the whole time. :lol:


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

The nest is full of eggs now. She's dropping about 1-2 dozen per wrap now. There are stalactites of eggs hanging off the bubblenest. :shock:


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Oh my gosh!!!!  congrats!!!!!!


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thank you!  

They're still going at it. I think there are a few hundred eggs in there by now, and they show no signs of stopping. They wrap every 5 minutes or so, and there are at least 15-20 eggs each time. It's very impressive. Honor had to enlarge the bubblenest, which already took up 1/4 of the 5g, to fit all the eggs. :shock: Beginning to get a bit frightened here, lol...


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## kjg1029 (Jun 14, 2014)

awsome! im glad to hear its working so far! lol.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks lol. Working out is a bit of an understatement.  So far, this has been a very successful spawn. Now we just have to see how many of those eggs hatch..:shock:

So, they're wrapping a lot less now, and Virtue's only making about 3-5 eggs per wrap. I'm guessing that they're almost done spawning. I think I'll take Virtue out in a few hours, regardless of whether or not they're 100% done or not, since I'd hate for her to bear Honor's wrath all night if they finish up early.

Edit - and on a related note, I discovered that one of my painted platies in the 20g gave birth to about 20 babies at some point during the day. :-D It was odd - she didn't even act very pregnant. I thought they all had 1-2 more weeks to go. All four came out for food last night and today. I'm going to have tiny babies everywhere at this rate!


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

**doom**

*sings* Now you'll know how I feeeeeeeeel...

Jarring time is just around the corner. May the sweet gatchi machi save us all.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Hey, at least you have someone to commiserate with now! Lucky us, getting the extremely fertile females our first time. :shock: 

I'm going to take out Virtue in a few minutes. I've only seen them wrap once since my last post, and it was eggless. She's done her job extremely well.


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## Kithy (Nov 21, 2012)

That's amazing!! What a very lucky spawn. Can't wait to see the babies :3


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Babies will, hopefully, be here within a couple of days. 

I've got Virtue acclimating in one of the 2.5 gallon tanks now. I shifted the bubblenest to the side a bit when I caught her, but Honor didn't care much. She managed to get through the whole spawn without any injuries. Hopefully, she'll rest up a bit and go back to being a little cute female.  I'm thinking that I'll set up a 10g sorority for her, Lucky, and several of the female babies in a couple of months. (Although maybe I shouldn't literally count my bettas before they're hatched...lol)


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

Woot Woot! it be raining babies xD


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

No, you don't want to try her in a sorority. She's much more likely to be extremely territorial, now. You _might_ be able to make it work, but...apparently females that have been bred aren't interested in cohabitating with rivals.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Ahh OK. I never knew that. Actually, I think I have heard that they can be territorial right after being near other bettas, but I didn't realize it was something that was true for the rest of their lives. I'll probably be setting up a sorority for a few female babies anyway, so I might try it out with her and keep a very close eye on it...either that, or just set her and Lucky up in a divided tank eventually. 

The babies are hatching! They weren't hatching yet at 9 AM. I left the house and came back at 3 PM, and the bubble nest grew about a dozen tails. :shock: They're very white. I'm not sure if it's their actual color or the fact that they're newborns, but they look like grains of salt with tails. :lol: I tried to get a photo for a while, but they're so extremely tiny and fast...lol. 

Honor ate quite a few eggs. I think I had about 250-300 to start with, and I'm guessing that I have around 80-100 now. He's taking very good care of the remaining eggs and babies, and I've been feeding him well, so I assume something was just wrong with the rest of the eggs. Regardless, I have babies now, so I'm happy.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Almost all males will eat a few eggs. Fertile or not, it just happens. Some are worse than others. At least you feed your male while he's in the tank, so he's not actually famished and tempted to eat his eggs.

And yeah, they're white at this stage because they're itty bitty babbies.


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

hrutan said:


> No, you don't want to try her in a sorority. She's much more likely to be extremely territorial, now. You _might_ be able to make it work, but...apparently females that have been bred aren't interested in cohabitating with rivals.


With all due respect to hrutan, I don't believe this to be a hard-and-fast rule. I am not a breeder but a few months back, I did have an accidental spawn in a split tank. I removed the female (and the eggs, not prepared to raise fry) and put her in a breeder net in my sorority to recover. After a week or so, when she was healed, I released her. She was fine.

I am sure this is true for some bettas, so caution is warranted. But I don't think it's a guarantee that it won't work.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I didn't mean it as a hard and fast rule, just a warning. "Much more likely" does not equate to always.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

So, got a bit of a scare this morning when I went to watch the babies, and found that the nest was mostly empty...:shock: After staring suspiciously at Honor for a second, I witnessed him spit out about 5 free-swimming babies. Upon closer inspection, most of the babies are swimming horizontally. About 1/3 of the ones I had as of last night appear to be missing. I'm guessing there are around 40-50 horizontal babies, maybe 10 who are still hanging from the nest, and maybe 20-30 who are MIA (but may just be hiding - I found about 20 hiding in a path of water lettuce). I put a small feeding of microworms in there, and some of the bigger horizontal swimmers are eating them. Should I take out Honor, or wait until all the babies are free swimming? If he's slowly eating babies, I'd hate to wait too long...


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

He might not be eating the babies, he might just be mouthing them and helping them eat, as is part of his natural instinct. I'd say maybe keep him in there another day, then if most/all of the fry are free-swimming, feel free to take him out if you notice any more missing.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

+1 on that. I've seen a lot of reports of males holding babies in their mouths, sometimes for a prolonged period of time. So watch for bulging cheeks before you pull him out. ;-)


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks for the help. 

Small update on the fry. I took out Honor two days ago. After I took him out, I counted 55 fry - give or take 10 - so that's not bad. They're swimming around, eating microworms, and being tiny and adorable now. They look much more developed, and I can see the shape of their eyes and their swim bladders. :-D I even saw one "yawn" with a 40x magnifying glass. :-D I think I'll do their first water change tomorrow, since there's a lot of plant gunk and poop on the bottom, and I think they're agile enough to avoid a siphon now.

Some of them, maybe four or five, seem to have some sort of swimming issue. They have a whitish lump where their swim bladder should be, and they look a bit bloated. They have a very hard time swimming. Is there any chance that they'll grow out of it? I haven't found any dead ones yet. I'm not afraid of culling some if I need to, but I want to know what to do if they're still doing this in a couple weeks.  (I don't think I'm overfeeding. I give them just enough microworms to coat the very tip of a Q-tip twice per day.)


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Keep an eye on the ones with difficulty swimming. With any luck, they'll grow out of it. If they do not, they may die on their own. If they are still struggling in a couple of weeks, you may wish to euthanize them.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

So, I'm really afraid that the fry have velvet. I was looking at them under a magnifying glass, and I noticed that some of the ones hanging out at the top seemed to be covered in little white spots. They're not acting strangely - they're growing, hunting for food, and seem fine otherwise. I did notice that they seem to "yawn" quite a bit. The spots are extremely tiny, about the same color as the fry, and look just slightly raised - I didn't see them without the magnifying glass. The white spots seem to mostly be on the bettas who hang out at the surface. (Could they just be bubbles?) I found one dead fry this morning, but I thought it was one of the swim bladder fry. What should I do?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Try a drop of Methelyne Blue in the water, or start adding salt with your water changes? Velvet can wipe out a young spawn in a matter of hours, so if this is something lingering, you may be facing something else. I never looked at mine through a magnifying glass so couldn't tell you if it's normal.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Hmm...so velvet probably would have killed them already? I only found one additional dead one this morning...hard to know if it's even related though, since they are 9 days old. They all seem to have the spots now - the spots have a sort of goldish, shiny color to them and look raised, which made me think velvet. I posted a thread over in the disease section too. Maybe it's ich or something? I don't know of anything else that causes little raised spots.

I'll get some methylene blue today. Someone else recommended a half dose of copper. Should I get both? I assume they'd both probably kill ich, too.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

It might still be velvet, it just hasn't been lethal yet. It might also potentially be Ich, although Ich is white, not gold. Either way, treatment won't hurt them if they don't have it, so it's best to just be on the safe side.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

I'd agree on the half dose of copper and blacking out the tank, you never know and I wouldn't risk a totally infected tank. Maybe one of the parents has a gold irid gene in their background?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes, and also I had a die-off right at the same age you're having one. Another breeder told me there's speculation that those die-offs are due to some of the babies finishing their yolk sac and not figuring out how to eat real food.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

I've heard the same thing, hrutan. As far as I know, it's almost expected to lose a few at around the 7-10 day mark. Now that I think about it, the dead ones did look visibly thinner than the others when I looked at them with a magnifying glass, so that theory would make sense.

Just got home a while ago. Doesn't look like any more are dead. I went to three pet stores, and couldn't find either methylene blue or copper. >.< So, in desperation, I picked up Tetra Lifeguard. Anyone know if this stuff is safe for fry? It looks fairly innocuous. It claims to treat "bacterial, fungal, viral, and parasitic, including ich" diseases. Active ingredient is 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone. (Is it even effective against velvet?)


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

MameJenny said:


> I've heard the same thing, hrutan. As far as I know, it's almost expected to lose a few at around the 7-10 day mark. Now that I think about it, the dead ones did look visibly thinner than the others when I looked at them with a magnifying glass, so that theory would make sense.
> 
> Just got home a while ago. Doesn't look like any more are dead. I went to three pet stores, and couldn't find either methylene blue or copper. >.< So, in desperation, I picked up Tetra Lifeguard. Anyone know if this stuff is safe for fry? It looks fairly innocuous. It claims to treat "bacterial, fungal, viral, and parasitic, including ich" diseases. Active ingredient is 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone. (Is it even effective against velvet?)


I used it on mesmer's funguses, it does not treat velvet. Idk if it's safe for fry, it's basically half chlorine half medicine


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Well, I was feeling uneasy about the medicine...but I found three dead fry and two who looked like they were dying, and the fry are quite a bit less active. All the dead ones had spots. Looking more closely at the dead ones, the spots do look more like ich to me, though that doesn't explain the gold. So, I added a half dose of the Lifeguard, along with 1 tsp/gallon of salt. I figure, even if it doesn't do much for velvet, I'll at least have my bases covered if it's ich or fungus or something (as long as it doesn't kill them). It's dripping in now. Going to also do a blackout. >.<


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Let's all hope for the best.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Indeed. Crossing my fingers for you.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks folks. I have some cautiously good news to report. I didn't find any more dead ones this morning (I was half-expecting to find them all dead or something). Only a couple are just laying at the bottom now. I looked at a few under the magnifying glass again, and I only found one with spots. So, hopefully, fingers crossed, the treatment is starting to work...


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Well, the spots all came back after I posted...and I found 6 dead fry. I actually managed to find a LFS that had copper in stock yesterday morning. So, I did a water change (to get out some of the other medicine) and added the copper. I saw a big improvement right away. The fry are back to their normal activity level, and some sickly ones who were laying at the bottom even went back to normal. :-D And the best part - none of the survivors appear to have any spots. :-D

I have some photos of the fish today that I'll post soon. Some of the bigger ones are getting tails. :-D


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Oh, good! Those poor little dears. Looking forward to pics when you can!


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

Phew, glad to hear! I hope this is the last of the problems you'll have!


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Hooray for healthy babies!


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

any updates?


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi! Unfortunately, the spawn didn't survive. They were extremely stunted, and they never really grew past the 3-4 week mark. Most of them also didn't ever grow fins. I suspect that it was a combination of the velvet and the combination of medicines that I used to try to save them. I eventually only had about 5 left, all about 1/4 inch in size at 2 1/2 months old. I ended up feeding them to my sorority girls. 

I'm not sure if I'll give breeding another go. I might consider it over the summer. Honor has gone mostly blind from eye scaling at this point, so I'd probably use a different male. Right now, I'm mostly focused on my two other tank projects. Sorry to disappoint. :-(

On a cheerier note, all my other fish are doing very well. Besides a guppy, some melty plants, and one betta, I haven't had any disease, deaths, or aggression.


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## mashp (Feb 24, 2015)

oh no, sorry to hear that. I want to thank you for the link to how to create a opaque, it will help me for my project thanks. and don't give up


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