# My baby girl Blue



## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

I have a 20g community tank with several black mystery snails and 2 female bettas Blue and Baby Blue. Blue is about a yr old and Baby Blue is about 4 months. I have a filter and 2 heaters in their tank and feed once a day with the bettas alternating with bettamin and betta pellets and fasting once a week. I feed my snails carrots and grapes and algae wafers and the bettas also like the wafers. I do WCs once a week at least 9g. Ive noticed Blue being bloated and one of her eyes looking like popeye. I have attached pictures. I Have put her in an epsom salt bath with a heater and filter for the time being. does anyone have any suggestions to what may be causing this and how i can help my girl blue?? any changes i can make to prevent this in the future??


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## txbettaowner (Nov 28, 2012)

Well first off let me tell you that algae wafers aren't good for bettas to eat. They are very bad for them. So they need to stop eating them immediately. 

Why are you fasting them and for how long? 

For a 20 gallon tank you need to remove more than 9 gallons a week since you have snails. Snails have a huge bioload and that isn't good for the bettas either. You need at least 50% WC and a 75% WC weekly. So 2 water changes one is 50% and one 75%. Then you need a 100% water change monthly.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

from what ive read fasting bettas helps keep them from getting constipation. My Miscalculation earlier... my WCs are 4 3g buckets weekly which is 12g.... and ive not ever done a 100% WC because i thought it would interrupt my cycled tank....


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## txbettaowner (Nov 28, 2012)

Water changes need to be done 100% monthly. Have you tested the nitrates, nitrites, pH, ammonia, etc in the tank?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i usually fast my bettas once a week for 1-2 days. right now im fasting both of them for 2 days at least. the betta that is in the pictures is in an epsom salt bath and im fasting her for at least 2 days to see if constipation is her problem. im keeping her separate until further notice


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## txbettaowner (Nov 28, 2012)

If you suspect Popeye then I would go get some Kanaplex and treat her and your other girl with it for 3 days. See if that helps. Get her out of the epsom salt. Kanaplex is made by Seachem. 

Here is a link to Seachem's website, I would locate a distributor and get some very soon: http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/KanaPlex.html


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i dont think she has popeye cause her eyes look better this morning. she has had a BM which is progress but she is still very bloated and her belly doesnt look much different than the pictures posted. but she is still active. all my levels in the tank are normal except the ammonia is a bit high. I tested the levels after the WC i did yesterday.


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## nmaybyte (Mar 13, 2011)

Has Blue always been a ...how to say... hefty girl? Like, has she always been bigger in the belly?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'd just like to point out that bigger tanks do not need 100% monthly. It wouldn't interrupt the cycle unless everything dried out and then your BB dies but 100% monthly is not needed. 12 gallons each week will suffice just good enough! It's about 60% anyway and that's more than I'd do ;-) But a full filter cleaning each month would help.

As for the girl, if poop looks normal then it's not internal parasites. It does look like she's got pop-eye going on and she can stay in the ES solution. How much ES are you using dancer? 1 teaspoon per gallon? You can use the 1 teaspoon per gallon while you use Kanaplex, it's not that stressful on them and it will both help but she does need an antibiotic for sure.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

poop looks normal 1tsp per gal is what i used with one of my other bettas when she was sick. havent ever used kanaplex.... shes not ever been bloated like this.... she looks like she has a full size pea stuck in her left side... sometimes shes active but then ive noticed she floats to the top of the water and stays there for awhile her fins arent clamped or anything just like shes tired n wants to lay close to the top of the water...


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

if i use kanaplex can i use it in the 20g or should i use it in the 1g quarantine i have her in


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You should get some Tetracycline then, most pet stores carry it and it's usually easy to fine. That or Erythromycin, both are antibiotics except the difference being that Tetracycline treats more of the gram positive and just some gram negative bacteria while Erythromycin treats more gram negative and some gram positive bacteria.

The thing about swollen abdomens and pop-eye being together is that it's generally caused by bacteria but there are two different kinds of bacteria; gram positive and gram negative. Most things are caused by gram negative but there are still some caused by the other. So I suggest starting with Erythromycin first and then if it doesn't work in a few days, try the Tetracycline and it should work just fine.

In the event of those medications, do not combine with Epsom salt.

EDIT: and all medications should be used in a QT container like you have her in now. It will be easier to do water changes and this way doesn't have bad effects on scaleless fish if you have plecos/catfish in the big tank.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

the only fish in the community tank are the 2 bettas and other than that i just have the snails thanks for the help


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If the other is a male Betta, she could be carrying egg's as well but there's still the issue of the pop-eye. And I still think you should use the QT tank for medicating just in case for the snails.

Also can you do twice weekly water changes on the 20 just for a couple of weeks? Like half way through the week do a 25% which is roughly 2 bucket's and then do your normal 4 buckets or just 3 buckets at the normal time you do you water changes? This will help fight anything that is in the tank if there is, it will make the water healthy too.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

both my bettas are females. here are some pictures of my younger one


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

oh okay, well that's another thing. You can't keep just two females, they will eventually hurt each other so much one will end up sick and die. Sororities need to have 4 or more females for them to work out because you need to spread aggression around so that not just one Betta is being picked on. Unless your tank is divided then that's fine.

But I do notice that your younger girl has stress stripes, telling me that she doesn't like something that just went on.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i had 3 and one died then these 2 seem to be getting along just fine... ive read that sororities need to be kept in odd numbers....


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi dancersmama. I'm sorry to hear about Blue. Do you have any other fish in the community besides the two betta girls, or just the two and snails? If you have other fish, then you may be all right just having the two because the other fish will act as distractions. Otherwise, the ideal number for sororities is a minimum of 4 girls although you can sometimes get away with just 3.

I agree with lilnaugrim totally that the bloating and the eye infection are indeed caused by two different types of bacteria, one gram negative and one gram positive. There is a possiblity that Blue's bloating could be caused from eating too much so it may be beneficial to keep her in just plain epsom salts at 2-3 tsps per gallon for a week without medication and no food. If the bloating and swelling don't go down, I suggest using Seachem Kanaplex because it is a broad spectrum antibiotic and will target both gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Unfortunately, this can be a hard medication to find and usually has to be ordered online.  If you would rather not do that, then go with lilnaugrim's suggestion of using erythromycin to target the eye infection and add API General Cure. The metronidazole in this medication can be effective for internal anaerobic bacterial infections.

EDIT: If you use Kanaplex, it would be best to use it in the quarantine tank as snails do not tolerate medication very well. Use slightly less than half a scoop (the package comes with its own scoop) for 1 gallon.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Sakura ill probly stock up on all 3 medications... but i think ill probly use the kanaplex this time... My younger betta also looks like she has popeye


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i also have about 18 snails that were the product of 2 adult snails that died and ill be getting rid of most of those..... i know snails put out alot of waste and that could also be causing the prob for my bettas.... without the snails how many female bettas could i comfortably house in a 20g tank?


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## txbettaowner (Nov 28, 2012)

in a 20 gallon you could put up to 13 females in a 20 gallon tank. one gallon per inch of fish, each adult female is usually 2 inches long so 10 females would be fine but you could do up to 13 with appropriate water changes.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

txbettaowner said:


> in a 20 gallon you could put up to 13 females in a 20 gallon tank. one gallon per inch of fish, each adult female is usually 2 inches long so 10 females would be fine but you could do up to 13 with appropriate water changes.


Actually the one inch per gallon rule is a total myth. It's not how much space they take up for most fish but how much bio-load they have. And not all of them get up to 2 inches either, 2 inches in considered a Giant lol. But anyway, if the one inch per gallon were true, you could put a 5 inch Goldfish in a 5 gallon and they'd be fine! But we know that's not true! 

Actually without other fish she could go right up to 15-18 fish in that tank. 20 would be the max since they're bio-load's aren't that big. But it's been suggested to keep it below the gallon max of your tank, so 15 would be the best number to have in a 20 without other fish. :-D


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i have no other fish as of now but ive thought about trying to keep neon tetras but i know nothing about them.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i think for now tho im going to get these girls better and get rid of the snails except for a couple and get my tank stable and go from there...


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ive had to order their medicine online and it should be here tomorrow. i now have a 5.5g quarantine setup. Blue is still very bloated and has popeye and Baby blue isnt bloated but has popeye. Should i treat them both at the same time in the quarantine tank or should i treat them separately? the quarantine tank has a filter and a heater and temp is 80 degrees with nothing else in the water but seachem prime. i got rid of all my snails and needing suggestions on how to clean the 20 gal to make it safe to repopulate it to make it safe for the girls when they are better and for when i want to add more bettas....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'd treat them in separate containers just to reduce stress. Even if they are kind with each other it will still create not needed stress and a stressed sick fish is harder to medicate than one that is not stressed. So I think separate containers will be beneficial to them. Doesn't have to be a whole 5.5 gallons, any 1/2 gallon or 1 gallon will do just fine


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

right now i have them separated and Baby blues stress stripes have gone away. ive noticed her casually swimming instead of trying to hide...


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ive not ever had sick that ive tried tro treat... my other 2 just died on me and i replaced them but i kept the snails. i think the snails bioload was just too much for that size of a tank and its affected the quality of the water.... not 100% sure tho


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It could have been but it depends on how many snails you had (sorry can't remember) and if the tank was cycled and how often you clean it out 

But they'll be okay separated. Baby Blue will be much happier when there are other girls that Blue can pick on instead of her so that's why she's swimming around right now since she's not threatened by Blue ^_^

Adding more silk/live plants and hides will really help keep stress levels down in the big tank as well :-D so that's something you can do as well.

As for medicating, just follow the directions when you get it and it should be fine. Of course if something doesn't make sense or you need help deciphering it, go right ahead and ask here! We can help ^_^


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

thanks


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

how often should i be feeding them ? Blue is the one that is really bloated but shes not refusing food neither of them are.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I feed once a day but other's feed twice or three times a day so it's up to you what you want to follow. But for Blue only feed her a little, I don't know which kinds of foods you have though. Is there a possibility that Blue ate all of Baby's food as well? I don't remember what you've already tried or what medication you were getting though, sorry >.<


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i feed them bettamin flakes and alternate with aqueon betta pellets. i also have tetra brine shrimp gel food but should i feed the brine shrimp occasionally or alternate it with the other two. ive been told before not to feed them more than once a day because it can cause constipation.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Well none of those foods are necessarily "good" for them so it could be possible that the food made Blue constipated.

Can you get any sort of Omega One Betta Buffet pellets or New Life Spectrum Betta/Small Fish pellets? It would be a lot healthier for them and keep them healthier as well. I wouldn't feed those tetra gel foods, they're no good :-/ You can get Frozen foods though, that would be good for them, Frozen Bloodworms and Frozen Brine shrimp is good. There's more nutrients in them than the gel stuff basically.

But with flakes, sometimes they will make constipation if you feed too much that can happen. With pellets though, you can feed 2-4 each twice a day if you want. Once a day I tend to feed until their tummies get just a teeny bit round which is usually around 6-8 pellets so that's a good way to go by. But I only feed NLS and Omega One. Less quality foods will make a fish bloat more or constipate more because they have more fillers in them. Fillers are anything Wheat, Corn or Soybean and the first three ingredients are the most important. Omega has no fillers in the first three ingredients so it's got one of the best formulas for carnivore fish


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## mybabyjets (Jun 4, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Well none of those foods are necessarily "good" for them so it could be possible that the food made Blue constipated.


First off can i say that "aqueon betta pellets" are very good, not as good as NLS but i have heard nothing but good things about them, and i feed them to my 4girls. Also i have 2 girls together and they get along and its been almost a month now. so sometimes very rarely 2 girls can live together.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

mybabyjets said:


> First off can i say that "aqueon betta pellets" are very good, not as good as NLS but i have heard nothing but good things about them, and i feed them to my 4girls. Also i have 2 girls together and they get along and its been almost a month now. so sometimes very rarely 2 girls can live together.


Tell me the first three ingredients on your Aqueon Food.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

on mine it says whole fish meal, whole wheat flour, soybean meal, shrimp meal, whole dried krill


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Mhmm, as I expected. Wheat and soybean right in the first three. Whole Fish meal is okay but there are better things.

You also have to look at the pellet size and how much it swells as I think I talked about earlier. But the lesser quality foods tend to swell more than NLS or Omega because there are more fillers I believe which makes it do that. And that means it's swelling more in your Betta's tummy basically giving him a tummy ache. That can lead to constipation, bloating and other swim bladder issues as well. Hence those foods really aren't the best.

But anyway, switching to one of the two foods I suggested might help Baby feel better and might have been the reason for Blue's bloat unless she's still at it. I think we had decided it was internal parasites before? What was the meds you were getting?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

the seachem kanaplex and api general cure and erythromicyn.... i was gonna use the kanaplex first and stock up on the others. i can get the omega one foods at the pet store


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, that sounds great then!


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

for my 20g should i empty out all the water and restock with new water with seachem prime ?should i rinse the gravel and decorations or leave them alone so they have good bacteria?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Depends on if what Blue has is bacterial or not. But it should be fine to just siphon out the gravel and do a 100% water change for it. Leave the gravel and stuff in there to keep the BB unless you want to cycle the tank all over again.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

when i first cycled it, it took me nearly 6 weeks.... ill probly just drain all the water and put in new water.... How will i know if what Blue has is bacterial?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

once i get them healthy again the 5.5g would be a good size to house a male betta in...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

well actually anything that she has could be contageous so it's up to you if you want to tear it down but I don't usually tear down unless it's something really bad like columnaris.

Did we decide on if she had internal parasites, bloat, eggy, constipation, or tumor/cyst? Did you try fasting or anything else so far?

Yeah just do a series of water changes, do a good siphoning of the gravel and you can rinse the filter media in the old tank water or you can replace the media and you should be fine. However if you take the media out you risk losing a lot of BB, so you can try to put two filter cartridges in there if it will fit and leave it like that for 2 weeks and your BB should move over to the new one enough so that when you take out the old one you won't experience a Mini-Cycle. However with only two fish, it shouldn't be that bad.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i fasted her for a few days and she pooped and it looked normal. shes not been in a tank with any males so no eggs could be internal parasites or bacterial infection. my younger betta only has popeye where blue has both bloat and popeye.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

so im treating blue for internal and external bacterial and treating baby blue for popeye.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Blue also has popeye


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, thanks for the rundown! Oh and you can edit your previous post within 20 minutes so you don't have to triple post lol nbd though ;-)

Pop-eye is technically internal swelling usually caused by bacteria. Generally caused by gram negative bacteria which is more of the "traditional" pop-eye I believe and then can also be caused by gram positive. So in which case KanaPlex being a broad spectrum antibiotic should help both the pop-eye and the bloating theoretically.

For Baby you can put her in Epsom salt instead of using the meds on her since she just has the Pop-eye. Epsom salt (100% Magnesium Sulfate no additives, scent or dyes) is a laxative agent used in humans but can be used safely in fish as well. Basically it's going to reduce the swelling of her pop-eye if it's not any serious bacterial issues. So that's good to start using the ES first before meds in case it's nothing bad and the ES will just flush it out basically.

ES can be found in your regular pharmacy, usually in the first aide section or somewhere around it. Also at Wal-mart pharmacy for 88 cents! ;-) so you can even try that on Blue now while you're waiting for the KanaPlex to come in. In fact you can use ES with KanaPlex but unless it's really needed, just stick to one or the other  so if you can, tomorrow get the ES and start that right away for the two of them to see if it starts to help.

You'll take to take a small cup, put some small amount of tank water in it and measure out 1 teaspoon of ES per gallon. So it's a 5.5 so you use 5.5 teaspoons of Epsom Salt. Mix it around until it's completely dissolved, all salts need to be dissolved first because it gives off heat when it melts so therefore can burn your fish and that's no good! So then you can slowly add it in to the tank over a half hour 45 min period and that's good. Then the day after is a resting day, no water changes.

Day after that do at least a 50% change on the tank if not more but keep track so you can replace exactly how much salt you took out. So if you take out half the water, you took out half the salt as well so that's 2.75 teaspoons. Don't worry about getting exact, just try to get as close as you can. And then re add the salt that you took out, in when you replenish the water.

And again, day after that is resting and day after that is water change/salt. You can do that for a two weeks unless the kanaplex arrives sooner or you find that the salt is working for them 

And yes, 5.5 gallons is great for a male ;-) in fact I have a male in my 5.5 right now too! haha


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ive had them both in the ES and its not helped either of them. Thats why i was going to use the kanaplex for blue and whichever antibiotic is good for popeye for baby blue since she only has popeye not the bloating.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay that's good! Yeah KanaPlex is good for pop-eye as well so that's a plus and easier on you ^_^ and the dose is for 5 gallons so that's also great too! :-D hopefully it will arrive soon so you can start dosing them


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

the one with popeye is in the one gallon so how much of the kanaplex should i use in the 1g tank?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If you mix up the one scoop in the 5.5 you can take a gallon from there to use for Baby and then just fill up the 5.5 with regular water. It will dilute it a little but it will still work.

Or if you have a 3 gallon bucket like I do, fill it up to 2.5 gallons and use half the scoop that it comes with to get half the dose.

Careful when you open the tube though because the powder can fly everywhere if your not careful lol, I almost had that happen to me because I thought it was a screw top but you just pop the top off gently.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ive given them their first dose and fed them... just waiting for my girls to get better...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay great ^_^ so just follow the directions and it should help. I believe you can use up to 3 doses of KanaPlex on one fish? Dosing every other day I believe if that's what it says


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Blue hasnt pooped in a day or two and shes staying close to the heater and not moving around alot just evry now and then. Baby blue shes more active and moving around more and showing off. Baby blue is the one that only has popeye. Blue is the one thats severely bloated and has severe popeye on one of her eyes.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah Baby will be fine. 

Blue, can you try both KanaPlex and Epsom salt to see if it helps her? You won't really see results in the first few day's anyway.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

in the 20g after i drain it would it be safe to add aquarium salt to the new water i put back in it? or should i just put the seachem prime in it as the water conditioner?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

thanks for all the help  lookin forward to happy healthy baby girls


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

AQ salt shouldn't be used for long term stuff as it can result in liver/kidney failure (basically Dropsy). There aren't any beneficial things to having AQ salt in there, even if nothing's in there so no, don't put it in.

Just do a series of water changes so the tank still stays wet, don't leave it dry for more than an hour because your BB will die.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ok thanks for the info on the AQ salt ive restocked my 20g tank with fresh water and have the filter running and evrything in it like normal just no fish after dosing the kanaplex should i do WCs before giving Blue her second dose? I dont think Baby blue will need a second dose....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Usually you don't do the water changes, just redose the tank I believe. I think that's what the directions are at least. If you feel a water change is necessary though, you can do one and redose the medication.

Continue Baby on the KanaPlex though, there are changes that it can come back so I think a second dose will be beneficial for her at least and then just frequent water changes will really help.

How much were the water changes you were normally doing on the 20?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

on the 20 i was doing a 50% once a week baby is in the 1g so i didnt know if i needed to change her water after the first dose?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, if other disease breaks out in the 20, you can start doing twice weekly changes around 25-50% and that can help keep the tank healthy 

As for Baby, yeah do a water change every other day. So she was first dosed yesterday or today? Either way, dose the first day and give her rest on the second. Then do a water change and redose the second treatment and then give her another day rest. And then after that she can go back into the 20 for now since Blue will be staying in the 5.5 a little longer, or at least she should so that she can get better.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ok thank you


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

given them their 2nd dose and the girls are more active today.....Blue is been swimming around her 5.5g instead of staying behind the filter and heater and baby is as active as shes always been.....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Great!! That's really good ^_^ Baby should be fine for now but just keep an eye on her eye. If the swelling doesn't go down in a day or two start her on Espom salt 1 tsp/gal for a while until it goes down, try to do daily water changes on her tank


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Baby looks normal her eyes look normal again n shes not bloated. Blue is still very bloated n one of her eyes is still swollen but she is starting to poop some... but not very much. Havent done a WC in the5.5g yet... should i do one tomorrow?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah do a water change before her next dose, give her the full three doses and then continue with the Epsom Salt after since she's going to need it I believe. Baby can stay in the 1 gallon for a few more day's just to be certain, do a water change daily and then she can go back into the 20 until you get some new fish/females or whatever ^_^


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ive not had any fish in the 20g do i need to do a WC in it before adding her back? How long should i wait before adding new females and how many at one time?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Have you had a filter running on the 20gal? If you've never had any fish in there at all, then you may want to get the biological bacteria up and going. If you have a dirty filter sponge from a used tank, you can add that to the filter of the 20gal and leave it for a few days. It will "seed" some good bacteria. Adding a bacteria additive like Seachem Stability also helps.

Then you can add Baby in. Wait maybe a week or two and then you'll need to add in 3 more girls at the same time. Any less and they may fight too much, any more and you may crash the cycle and cause an ammonia spike.

Glad to hear Baby is doing better.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ive been running the tank with an old filter n original gravel n decorations n clean water with seachem prime its been running like that ssince i put the girls in separate tanks. Should i test it to see what the levels are? This is the tank they were in when i noticed they were sick. I drained as much of the water out as i could then added new water with prime. Its not been dry at all.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You can test for the ammonia levels yes. But otherwise, it should be safe to add Baby. I'd still wait a week before adding the other girls though.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ok thankyou. Just want my girls happy n healthy


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

all my levels are good.... just waiting for the temp to get to 80 before putting her in.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

*pics of Blue today*

these are the best pictures i could get of her.... not the best lighting in this room i know but as u can see her belly is still quite bloated and her eye is still swollen as well.today is her resting day tomorrow is her 3rd dose of kanaplex and ill also be doing a 50% water change on her 5.5g tank with ES.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay that's good  it doesn't look /too/ bad, but definitely will need the third dose and then ES afterwards just to flush things out, poor girl. I hope she heals up soon!


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Me too she looks miserable but shes moving around pretty good.... shes more active n responds to me when i walk in the room now. Before she just stayed between the filter n heater n didnt move much.....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Well that's always a good sign ^_^ movning around and active that is


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If you feel like it, you may want to continue with the Kanaplex for another 3 doses. This won't hurt her but it will help to insure that the bacterial infection is being taken care of. Stopping the meds right now could mean the infection comes back resistant to treatment.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Thank's for popping up Sakura ^_^ I am usually uncertain about how long exactly you can dose meds for. Since KanaPlex is much less harsh, I feel it's probably alright to continue dosing if needed, is that right?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ok thank you both... the way her belly and side is pooched out there i feel she needs more than 3 doses but im no expert. ive not ever had to treat bettas for sickness before. baby is doing just fine in the big tank just looking for her friend. and she has stress stripes... i did a 50% wc in blues tank with ES today that way when i give her the kanaplex tomorrow it wont be such a shock to her system....


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Lilnaugrim, yes, it's definitely safe to use Kanaplex for more than 3 doses, especially if the symptoms haven't cleared up. 

dancersmama, once you work out the dosing for smaller tanks, treating sick bettas is usually straightforward. It's the diagnosing part that is tricky. :shock: You're doing a great job and you're getting great advice from lilnaugrim.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

thankyou  i really appreciate all your help getting my girls healthy again. I may not be able to add any new girls til the beginning of next month.... would a divider in the 20g tank be a good idea temporarily?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I think you can divide a 20gal, yes.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yep, you can get that plastic mesh. I believe it's just perfect so you don't have to cut much of it and tension will hold it in place for the most part, let it dig into the gravel so that it's more stable and you should be all set for that time


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

the tank divider i bought said it was for a 20g but it wasnt tall enough for mine...so i guess for now ill have to keep the girls separated til next month


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can still use that but keep the water line low unless it was one meant for like a 10 gallon or something.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Dancersmama, is your 20gal a 20gal high and not a 20gal tall? 

20gal high dimensions:
24" L x 12" W x 16" H

20gal long dimensions:
30" L x 12" W x 12" H


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Mine is tall and narrow


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Mine is probly a 20g high


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That's probably why the divider wasn't tall enough even though it said for a 20gal. Most dividers sold for 20gal are for the 20gal long. If it fits widthwise, you can just keep the water level lower like lilnaugrim suggested.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ive given blue her 3rd dose of kanaplex... was wondering how much should i be feeding her ive been feeding her just once a day and less than i was feeding her. shes still not pooping. i have her tank completely empty so i can tell wehat is going on in there except for her the filter and heater.and thermometer. Ive ordered the omega one food since the pet store is 2hrs away and it should be here tomorrow.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

What you're doing now seems about right for feeding. She needs to eat to keep up her strength but if you feed her too much, then she may get worse because she's not pooing.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

her belly has gone down some and her eye seems less swollen and she likes to swim in my hand and thru my fingers and likes attention.... shes definitely more active...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That is great news. I think we made the right decision to continue with the Kanaplex for another 3 courses.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

one of my concerns is whether she can see out of her left eye or not now. Its the eye that has popeye. When i feed her if i put the food right in front of her she doesnt go for it like she cant see it but if i put it to her right towards the eye thats not affected she goes right for it and sometimes the food that ends up on the bottom she ends up eating it when she finds it. I'm wondering if i should leave her in the 5.5g tank by herself permanently if shes gone blind in that eye. other than that she does just fine its just hard for her to see her food. and shes still not pooping....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

There is a possibility that she's having trouble seeing out of it right now. I don't know the chances of her going blind in that eye but I do know sometimes they will lose an eye with Pop-eye but it will heal up just fine and then other times they'll reduce the swelling and all will be good. So I suggest putting it on the side that she can see and see if that helps, try to wiggle it around as well to see if she reacts to it more. Sometimes I know my boy's like food that's moving, it feels like live foods to them and they get excited over it ^_^ so that might entice her to eat a little more


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

I got their new food and they love it. with Blue when i feed her the flakes i crumble it a bit and put it on her "good" side and move it around with my finger in the water so she can see it moving and she usually goes right for it. Shes been pooping more since i gave her the 4th dose this morning and her belly seems to have gone down some more. Baby i crumble her flakes too and she jumps for it lol and she also likes the betta buffett pellets i got... if i give blue the pellets i only give her one at a time. They seem to be thriving since i changed their food to the Omega One.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yay! I'm really glad that they love their food! It's amazing what good food can do though, you know? That's great to hear ^_^

Hopefully with the addition of the good food and the medications, it will really aid her healing!


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Blue's belly doesnt seem to be getting better. i noticed that one of her small fins is missing and one of her sides is pineconing and actually looks like its shredding. She floats to the top for air and to eat then she floats back to the bottom or around the filter and heater. On the other hand Baby is as healthy as she can be and the 20g the water condition is as good as it was last week. She just seems lonely. So next month ill get 3 more females and put in with her... I just dont know what to do about Blue


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Whatever Blue has may be too aggressive for the fish meds that are regularly available. I'm sorry to hear she isn't getting better but continue with the treatment all the same and maybe there's still time to turn the tables on this.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ok tomorrow is her 5th dose.... thanks for your help


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

*blue*

this is what she looks like today


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aww. Since the bloating appears to be on one side mostly, it looks like she has a possible severe kidney infection. The kidney on that side may have shut down completely. Unfortunately, there's not much we can do at this stage except continue with the Kanaplex and the epsom salts to keep as much fluid buildup down as possible. 

I'm so sorry but you're doing a wonderful job with her. Don't give up hope! I have seen situations like these reverse. Not often but it can happen.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Thank you im doing a WC tomorrow then the next day will be her 6th dose. Is it safe to do another round of kanaplex??


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes. I've done up to 12 or 14 rounds before.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ok thank you


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

this is how blue looks after her 6th dose of kanaplex. her side that isnt affected by the kidney failure seems to be discolored....... the side that is bloated seems to be going down and she is still active tho she mostly lays by the filter and heater....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Mm yeah, I'm thinking this might be more Tumor-ish in nature than bacterial. If it were dropsy it'd be generally on both sides, might start out on one side but will eventually go to both sides as the fluid builds up and she wouldn't have lasted this long.

There are no real cures for fish tumors, just making them comfortable with ES until they pass is generally what we do. I'm not sure though, honestly. I'd just keep up with the KanaPlex for now since it can't hurt.

How's Baby doing?


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

baby is as healthy as can be and as active she seem generally happy just lonely but in the next week or so ill be getting 3 females to add to her tank.... since adding new water her 20g has remained clean and ive tested weekly and all the levels are great....she looks at blue all the time thru the day but i know its not a good idea to put them together she just misses her....


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Blues underbelly seems to be turning a whitish color and overall her color seems to be a very dull color. not even blue really. she doesn't even surface anymore really unless she sees me sometimes i have to move her water around to get her attention.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The changes of color is a definite sign that something is not functioning. It's also a sign that the end could be near. You've done such a great job keeping her comfortable and you've done everything you could for her. No fishy could ask for more.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

thank you....Blue is still eating but its realy hard for her to find her food and shes slowly wandering around the tank. she goes to the bottom at an angle not like shes balanced or anything.... she tends to stay in one corner and just floats there.... I guess im just waiting now....Baby is doing great tho so she will be getting tankmates and ill be getting a male for the 5.5g hopefully. what do u suggest for cleaning the tank after Blue passes??? and any suggestion on how to restart that tank since it had never been cycled?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

For cleaning, it's a good idea to rinse everything off in hot water. You can also use a hot water and vinegar or a hot water and dilute bleach solution as well.

Can't quite remember the specifics but if a tank is under 10gal, cycling isn't very important so only do it if you really want. If there won't be any inhabitants for a while, you can try a fishless cycle using pure ammonia. Otherwise, you can do a fish-in cycle but that can be very stressful on the fish.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ive always done a fish in cycle but ive heard of using a bacterial supplement to get the cycle started


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

my girl Blue that is sick now she is making bubble nests all around her tank. When i had my male dancer he used to do that all the time. But ive heard it is uncommon in females esp when they are sick??? Ive not given her a dose of kanaplex in a few days just feeding her.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

her side is still very swollen and the other side is discolored and the one eye looks like its popped out but when i feed her she jumps at her food. her fins arent clamped and she is pooping some. she tends to stay at close to the surface of the water and im not sure what to make of it really. sometimes shes swimming fast all thru her tank and at other times she seems to be floating. i can tell she cant see very well because of the way she reacts to me... when i put my hand in the tank she goes at my fingers like food. but she still lets me hold her towards the surface of the water and swims thru my hand. not sure about all the bubble nests tho thats puzzled me.with the discoloration im not sure if i should give her a dose of the general cure or if i should just stick to the kanaplex and ES.... I am doing a water change with ES tho.....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm really not sure, I'm kind of useless passed this point. I'd say to continue the KanaPlex though since switching meds will just make it harder on her and at least she's had some progress with becoming more active so that's good at least.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ive also added some pics on my profile page of the 20g and Baby if ya wanna take a look....


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Try stopping the epsom salt and continue only with the Kanaplex.

The bubbles part . . . sometimes when a betta starts to struggle to stay up in the water so they can breathe at the surface, they gasp at air and make bubbles.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Ive completely emptied the 5.5 tank wiped the residue off all the insides and the filter and heater and filled it back up with water using only seachem prime. the water temp is currently 80-82 and shes swimming normally... surfacing then casually swimming thru the tank and reaching the bottom. shes not staying in one place for a long amt of time. the discoloration to me looks like possibly burns??? other than that shes actingf normally... better actually... Thanks Sakura


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm glad she's acting normally. That's always a good sign.  What do you think she could have gotten burned on, though? I doubt it's ammonia burns since you've been keeping the water quality so good.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

not sure maybe the ES building up in the tank??


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It could be. :/ Did you remove the ES? It should be safe to do so.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

i completely removed the ES and wiped evrything down with paper towels. ive looked at her side thats discolored and it looks reddish to me. She doesnt seem to be having trouble breathing or with her gills tho. her underbelly is still that whitish color and still swollen and her eye looks popped out and red still. but when she eats now she doesnt act like she has to fight for it. ill be giving her another dose of kanaplex tomorrow. should i put it directly in her water and stir it around? thats what i have been doing? what about taking the filter out?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Adding it directly to the water sounds fine. You can leave the filter in but you'll have to remove any carbon or charcoal because that absorbs the meds from the water. If you feel comfortable with the idea, we can make the next dose of Kanaplex her last. Or we can continue for another 3 doses. Either way would work.

If her side is very bloated with a tumor or kidney failure, then the skin will get a little irritated and turn reddish as it's stretched out.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

ive decided just to do the one last dose of kanaplex...... so far her side seems to be getting more red and shredded looking and she doesnt move very much unless she thinks im gonna feed her.....


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Poor baby. This such a hard part about fish with tumors. There's nothing that can be done but wait and keep them comfortable. If it gets to where she has trouble reaching the surface to breathe, you can lower the water level as much as necessary and/or provide plants that reach the top so she can rest in them.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

Blue is still hanging on and still swelling..... in the mean time i was able to get 3 new girls for baby and shes getting along with the lighter colored ones but shes picked the light blue one nearly to death... not sure that she will make it i had to take the lil blue one out of the tank n put her in the 1gal by herself... all of her fins are shredded n shes swimming with her "nose" pointed downward.... now shes just sitting at the top of the water but breathing.... not sure what to do for her but baby is being very territorial.... the other two seem to be able fend for themselves and getaway from her and i added more plants and hiding spots...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

:-/ you're supposed to quarantine them for 2 weeks at least before introducing them into the tank in case there are diseases with them. I like to float mine in the big tank for the two weeks while changing water everyday/every other day unless they're sick but that helps for them to get to know each other. You can't just dump fish in there unfortunately.

Baby will be territorial because the tank is 'her' place so in order for a sorority to work you'd need to take her out, rearrange the tank and then introduce them all at the same time at a later date.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

We have a blue VT female in our sorority tank that has had a very swollen side just like blue. I tried the same course of Epson and kanaplex and it didn't do much. We have been expecting her to die for over a year now.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

the new lil blue one died and Blue died... But i fixed up the 5 gal for Baby and shes lovin it.... i guess she likes being by herself and the 2 new lighter clolored ones are in the big 20 and they chase each other and nip at each other but not much nipping is going on there.... so far so good.... at least next time i will know... Baby is twice the size of the new ones and i also thought that might have something to do with it too.... so far they all seem happy n healthy


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Size has nothing to do with it, it's all about introducing them properly, so like floating them in the tank for two weeks while doing daily/every other day water changes. As I said, you can't just throw them in like that, it's not how sororities work unfortunately. And you chance introducing diseases even if you think they look healthy, they can always be sick and you not know it.

I'm sorry about Blue though, you tried really hard though and that's what counts.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about Blue. You did everything you could for her.


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## dancersmama79 (Feb 10, 2012)

my girls are doing just fine in their tanks.... im still doing weekly WCs in both tanks and feeding them once a day....


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