# Attempting to breed 2 crowntails



## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I have been trying to breed 2 crowntail bettas but things aren't going well. The female is full of eggs and seems to be interested in the male as long as she is in a seperate tank. The male also seems to be interested in her, but only for short amounts of time. He will flare up at her for a minute or so and then he will swim off and ignore her. After a while he comes back and does it again. I know he is supposed to build a bubble nest and when I first got him, he had a fairly big one, but now he doesn't have one and he dosent attempt to try and make one. I've tried letting the female out to try and spark him into making one, but he will chase her around and then get bored and ignore her. He has never attacked her and she has never attacked him.

What am I doing wrong?


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Just give them time. These things can sometimes take up to 4 days, so you need to be patient. They'll figure things out eventually.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Did you condition them? If so, how?


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Since my last post, she has begun to swim closer to him than before, but he seems almost afraid of her. I conditioned them by setting the male up in the breeding tank and letting him get used to it. Then I put the female in a tank near him so they could see each other. Then I put her tank inside the breeding tank. And then I let her out. When they were seperated, they showed normal signs of wanting to breed, but after being put in the tank, they stopped.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

You know the definition of conditioning Bettas? Or. Did you mean you were conditioning the male in the tank?


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

That is all I did. What else should I do?


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Well conditioning (correct me if I'm wrong) is when you feed your fish a variety of nutritional protein filled food, for about 2 weeks, leaving the fish healthy as possible... I personally condition my fish in their own tank. So the male won't be very "territorial" about the spawning tank. As to why their not breeding. How long did you condition both your Bettas?


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I've been feeding the female frozen blood worms for a few weeks and the male has been getting them for about a week


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm not to sure then, just be patient, they'll eventually realize it "sugar" time soon enough


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

How long should the chasing process last? I saw him chase her for a couple minutes earlier but then he stopped.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Usually I would leave them in the tank 3-4 days maximum, if there is too much aggression its your call when to split the pair.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Also, should she have stripes? I read that she is supposed to have stripes.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

They don't have to have stripes. But it's a sign that she will be ready to breed


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

She doesn't have a stripe, just a little orange square on both sides. She also is full of eggs with a visible egg spot.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Okay, just be patient and let "nature" take its course.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I've been watching them and she has been moving slower and slower. I feel like that is bad.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I've been watching them and she has been moving slower and slower. I feel like that is bad. There also has been some nipping from the male.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

How long have they been in there? The nipping is normal, but like I said, be patient and when it gets to rough for your female (or male) seperate the fish.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

They've been together for about 24 hours now. She just seems exhausted. Will that speed up the process or slow it down


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

If you're going to be this impatient, then take them out, recondition them by feeding them good food for two weeks, try again.

Is the water temperature appropriate? Are the heater and filter running. Do you have IAL? There could be a thousand things that you're not doing that you should do.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Nimble said:


> If you're going to be this impatient, then take them out, recondition them by feeding them good food for two weeks, try again.
> 
> Is the water temperature appropriate? Are the heater and filter running. Do you have IAL? There could be a thousand things that you're not doing that you should do.



I totally a agree, the key to a successful spawn is patience. Just wait and wait, if they haven't done anything in 3-4 days seperate the pair and recondition.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm not being impatient. I'm asking questions because I haven't done this before. The water is about 75. What is the ial?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Ah, there's your problem. Raise the temperature a bit at a time, you want it to be 80. 75 is too cold for breeding. 80 is ideal, and a variance of even 2 degrees from 80 will result in drastically reduced mating behaviors.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

This is why we do weeks of research and preparing before putting two naturally agressive fish together
That being said I hope it works out for you. Just keep a close eye and make sure nobody gets hurt


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Hrutan, show him/her the total cost of everything they need for breeding and the amount of effort and strain it is. This one isn't ready.


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

hrutan said:


> Sounds like you need to have a break and rethink this. You do need to be prepared. Breeding bettas is like baking a cake - every ingredient must be ready BEFORE it's put in the oven, or you'll have a disaster on your hands.
> 
> Take some time. Read through my spawn log (linked in my signature) and think real hard about whether this is something you really want to do, or whether this is a temporary diversion. If you're determined, then you need to get everything ready...and understand that it can be a very, very expensive hobby. I am going to cut and paste a bit of math I did at a friend's prompting.
> 
> ...


if i where you id take them out and wait till your ready.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm sorry since I misunderstood you, 80-82 degrees is perfect, do you have future homes for te fry? Do you have cultures running for your fry to eat? If you don't have these simple things you shouldn't breed. This breeding hobby is expensive so be prepared to use A LOT of money $$$!


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## Bettafish2002 (Feb 9, 2015)

It can take quite a while for them to get used to each other! What I would do is to keep the male in the tank (how big is the tank?) and feed him very rich foods (bloodworms, some good quality pellets) and then add the female in after about two weeks. Then I would just give the female and the male some time to meet each other. It can take a long time to get them accustomed to each other so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I hope it works out well!


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

It's weird because he hasn't hurt her at all. I have most of those things. My breeding tank is 10 gallons filled up about 6 inches from the bottom. There are no rocks on the bottom either. I feed them both frozen blood worms 3 times a day. I will heat the water up more to see if that helps.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Warming the water up really should help. Try to keep it to about a degree an hour until you hit 80. The difference in spawning behavior has been measured through empirical studies, using bubble nests as a measure. 80 degrees is ideal.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

it sounds like your pair are just inexperienced. Inexperienced pairs are the most difficult to breed because they don't know where to start or how. Especially females. First time females will get easily distracted, so I suggest reconditioning the pair and when you float her tank in his, cover the sides so that neither of them can see out and are forced to focus on each other. Also, black water extract is very useful in encouraging spawning behavior...


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Hey all, it's been a while since I've been on here and I have an update. They finally mated. Yesterday I watched the male squeeze the female several times and the eggs came out. The male immediately stopped and moved then to the nest. After a while the female was chased away by the male. She looks to still have eggs in her, but I was afraid he would hurt her so I removed her. How can I tell how when the eggs hatch?


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

The eggs should hatch between 24-48 hours. You'll see little tails hanging from the nest.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Is there a correlation between temperature and hatch time?


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm not really sure. I do believe so though. What temperature do you keep your spawn tank at?


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

About 78 f


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

Colder water makes them hatch slightly slower


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

How much warmer should it be?


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I keep my heater temp. At around 82. They seem to cope well with that.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

My heater isn't adjustable. How much will it slow down the process?


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## Pintomare11 (Nov 22, 2014)

I'm sure you could answer that question with some outside research. No offense, but if you don't even have an adjustable heater then you are not ready to be breeding. Adjustable heaters are important if you ever have something like an ich outbreak. Personally, I do not have an adjustable heater and that is why I only have 2 store bought bettas in a divided 10gal with no intention of breeding. Also, may I ask why you are breeding? Do you intend to keep the babies? There are already a number of unwanted and improperly cared for bettas, so please only breed "quality" fish. These are all questions you should have asked before you bred your bettas. Please get the proper equipment ASAP. I am not trying to be rude, but helpful. I could be totally wrong and assuming things, but it sounds like you are not equipped and do not have the proper setup. Best of luck!


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

78 should be fine. It'll just be a couple hours slower probably no big deal.


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

Also, you said female looked like she still has eggs, this is completely true. Female bettas have two egg sacs, when one is diminished, the other one is out into use, but only one is used during spawning.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok, I admit I'm not a professional, but this is how I am learning. Most of the time, it's hard to understand what people are saying on other sites. Here, I can ask questions about what I need help with. Ok, I'll keep updating.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

What happens to the eggs in the other sac?


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

It's for breeding again, if she decided to breed before the first one refills. Within 5 days I believe both sacs are refilled


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok. So far I can't see anything under the bubbles. Will I be able to see the tails easily or is it difficult?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

If you have duckweed in there it can be hard to tell them apart. But you should see them. If you can't, hold still and look for motion instead. They should be falling and zipping back up in the bubbles. Also watch what Dad's doing. If he's guarding the nest, there's probably something to guard. If he's wandering around the tank, the nest is probably empty.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

He is hovering around below the nest and occasionally comes up for air to blow a bubble somewhere.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Still not seeing anything from the nest. Male is still floating under it though.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

newbettabreeder said:


> Ok, I admit I'm not a professional, but this is how I am learning. Most of the time, it's hard to understand what people are saying on other sites. Here, I can ask questions about what I need help with. Ok, I'll keep updating.


 
You've got the right attitude for learning! You've got professional breeders here for advice and help. You probably won't have "zillions" of babies the first time anyway, so a smaller spawn will be more manageable. Good luck!


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Oh, trust me. You don't want zillions of babies, hahaha.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Yeah I don't recall seeing that many eggs so I'm not expecting that many. I'm kind of worried because I can't see anything yet and it has been 48 hours.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Give it another day, if he starts leaving the next you'll know it was a wash. It is very, very common for the eggs to be unfertilized and get eaten with new parents. Don't give up hope!


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

He is already starting to leave it. Should I retry the process or wait for a while?


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Hes starting to get a lot more active now.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd grab a flashlight, get to where you can see underneath, and shine the flashlight along the nest to check for yellowish spots (indicating egg clusters) or little pairs of eyeballs. If you see nothing, it's time to feed the parents up for a week and try again.


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

Wait another day or two... My male left the nest plenty to scout out the tank, yet I had hundred of fry...


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok I couldn't see any yellow eggs, but that's just because my nest is hard to see from all sides. I'll give it a few days though


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

You should be able to see little fry zipping up and down from the nest soon.. if not by tomorrow, theres probably nothing there then.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok, I think I saw one or two. They were hard to see and as soon as they fell, the male picked them up in his mouth and put them back up.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

When is a good time to pull the male out? And when should I start putting food in for the little ones?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

When the babies are swimming around on their own, you can take dad out and start feeding.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

How long does that usually take, and how big will they be? Will I be able to see them clearly or will I have to look harder?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

You'll have to look pretty hard, but basically right now the little tails are pointed down ... and in a day or two they will be horizontal. They will be swimming, rather than falling. If you have vinegar eels, you can add a drop of that right now just in case, the VE will live in the water...


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

When they start swimming, will they come out from under the nest? I don't have any vinegar eels.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

What do you have for fry food? And yes, they will.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I have brine shrimp and blood worms. I saw one swimming around today.


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

please tell me that there brine shrimp eggs? you cant feed adult brines to babys or bloodworms


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Yeah I have brine and eggs. Why can't I cut up blood worm for them?


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

it will be way to big for them. you need baby brine shirimp, vinegar eels, and micro or walter worms. i dont start them on BBS till week 3-4 but i use VE and MW for the fisrt 3 weeks then start introducing brine shrimp.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I change up the diet by feeding a variety of VE, MW, WW, BW. Everyday they get some new nematodes!

But this is during the few weeks since they've hatched. I'll probably stop feeding them the variety of nematodes once they are to big for it and by then I'll have grindal worms.

BBS is introduced during the 2-4 week or even 5th week range. Not really sure as of yet.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

What do you prefer to feed them? Other places seem to prefer microworms.


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

i use MW VE first and BBS on the 3-5 weeks


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I prefer a variety of nematodes from 1-5 weeks. They then are introduced to BBS or even earlier and then I move on to grindal worms and pellets and whatever else that will be nutritious to them.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok, I have several fry out from the nest area and on the opposite side of the tank. Should I take the male out?


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

Your choice.. If he seems like a caring father you can keep him in, however he will cull the weakest fry.. But yeah right now you can take him out now..


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

It doesn't look like he's doing anything. He is kind of just swimming around the tank.


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

Just take him out then.


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

id take him out


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

newbettabreeder said:


> What do you prefer to feed them? Other places seem to prefer microworms.


Honestly, I like microworms for how easy they are. However probably my favorites to start them off on is Vinegar eels since they stay in the water and don't sink. After a week or so on these you can start to alternate with bbs, or even start bbs day one, just some fry may not be able to eat it which is why you should mix it up a bit. Right now I found that they will eat ALOT of bbs but ration themselves more on the VE and microworms... Careful not to overfeed.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Even chopped blood worms are too big for tiny fry. 5mm fry can be fed tiny newly hatched bloodworms. 1cm fry can be fed chopped but you may lose lots of its nutrients.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

How big should they be when I start feeding them? Also, I read that eggs can be used for food if prepared properly. What are your opinions on that?


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Why are half the babies white and half of them dark? Is that just that some are more developed than others?


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

newbettabreeder said:


> Why are half the babies white and half of them dark? Is that just that some are more developed than others?


Yes. This is because some came out of the female later also


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

When will I be able to know for sure what sex they are?


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

newbettabreeder said:


> When will I be able to know for sure what sex they are?


for sure? It'll be a while.. but around 2 months you can get a good idea


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## gracem2002 (Dec 27, 2014)

aaronpham said:


> for sure? It'll be a while.. but around 2 months you can get a good idea


You can either tell by the oviposter ("egg hole") on their lower belly that it's a girl (some males will have this too at a young age), and boys will blow bubble nests and be brighter colored with a more impressive tail (again, girls can have this, too. Make sure you separate ALL of them when old enough, just in case. Also, you can feed them infusiora.


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

females can build bubblenests to and Egg spots arnt a good way to sex. also females are just as colorful as males


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

newbettabreeder said:


> How big should they be when I start feeding them? Also, I read that eggs can be used for food if prepared properly. What are your opinions on that?


Some people use boiled egg yoke mashed with tank water. It's probably easier to do than live food. Some of the babies will fail to see it as food and starve (the living food wiggles around). I'm not sure the exact day when you start feeding them.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I start to feed the spawn 2 days after they have hatched. During the 2 days they've eaten the yolk sac and then move on to BE MW WW and VE. They can go on longer without food for 2 days, as I've experienced. It's just better to start feeding earlier for more superior growth.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I've tried feeding them, but it doesn't look like it is working.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

What do you mean?

Their small but their most likely eating. So it's hard to see with the naked eye.


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

I started with the egg dissolved in water first. They didn't look like they were going for it. I think I will try microworms next


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Ok, it's better to start them off with nematodes because they squiggle so the fry see it as food. Something squiggling catches your attention does it not  ?

Will you be going to the IBC show in Long Beach?

You should join me  so we may be able to meet and talk about fish!


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## newbettabreeder (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok I will try that. Unfortunately I will not be going. I live in Michigan and that is an expensive trip


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Oh, hehe. Sorry I meant to write that in a different spawn log!


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

baby brine shrimp has a lot more nutritional value than microworms. And alot of the time, fry that have been fed micro worms don't develop their ventrals because of the bacteria from the worms that burn them, unless you're willing to clean your tank after every feeding session.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

sharkettelaw1 said:


> baby brine shrimp has a lot more nutritional value than microworms. And alot of the time, fry that have been fed micro worms don't develop their ventrals because of the bacteria from the worms that burn them, unless you're willing to clean your tank after every feeding session.


Thiugh the con to that, some fry may be to small to fit BBS into their mouths and may suffer from starvation. And my theory about betta's with no ventrals is that, the worms which sink to the bottom of the tank are being scavenged by te fry, their ventral area is scraping against the bacteria of the bottom of the tank thus causing lack of ventrals, is that what you meant? Or is it because of the bacteria of MW? I've fed my fry a variety of nematodes and not one seems to be missing any ventrals yet.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I fed my first spawn too many microworms, for too long. The bottom of the tank got vacuumed every day to every other day. The majority were missing vents.

Better to be safe and stop with the MW at 2 weeks.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

hrutan said:


> I fed my first spawn too many microworms, for too long. The bottom of the tank got vacuumed every day to every other day. The majority were missing vents.
> 
> Better to be safe and stop with the MW at 2 weeks.


Very odd. As I did that with a previous spawn but they didn't lack any ventrals, hmm.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Like with anything, there's probably more than one aspect to it. No one is truly CERTAIN what's going on with microworms. Just that they are associated with this problem.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yeah, I see.  Thank you for the info!

Btw, will you be participating in the IBC show in Long Beach?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes. Saturday is my anniversary so I won't be in (the judging day is pretty boring, anyway), but you'll find me manning the cash table on Sunday. My club is hosting the event. I have one or two halfmoons for the new breeder classes, and I just bought a pretty veil on Aquabid for the special Veil contest.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

then id suggest green water culture and brine shrimp. Micro worms are a risk


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