# Marble from dumbo x half dambo?



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum.

I decided to show my bettas. From a pair of super-delta Dumbo and a female halfmun (from a male super-delta dumbo and a female halfmun), an interesting brood of bettas turned out in my opinion. In any case, I did not expect this result ...
The male was a pink salamander. Female is turquoise with blue tint. (I was looking for a red or pink female for a long time, but I could not find).

As a result, I got 12 males and 11 females from this pair. Here are the video with 11 boys. (I didn't put an opponent for them so they just swiming around). They 4 month old.

Those are marble?
1.




2.




3. This one start to change.




4. And i think this one too...





And the others.




6
7
8
9
10
11

Can you please tell me, is first 4 are marble colour?

And another question, in your opinion, which males are the best?I want to keep some of the best males for my future work. But I'm a little confused.

Sorry for my English.


----------



## Mother Of Fish (Feb 11, 2021)

I would keep 5 and 3 and breeders maybe 1. 1 and 2 are marbles. 4 and 2s fins aren't that attractive, I would sell them. 5 is the best as far as the dumbo fins go.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Several have damaged fins so it's difficult to critique them. If you can, photos with them flaring would be good. Trying to evaluate in a curved container is, at least for me, difficult because of the distortion.

@indjo, @imaal @X skully X are good at evaluating for breeding.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

What is your goal? What color/form do you wish to create. Knowing this would help us help you better. 

Providing side view flaring pictures will help us better assess their quality - if that is important to you.

# color;
Salamander/lavender are from cambodian lines - forgot the actual sequence in producing them. So cross breeding them will produce light colors. 
Crossed to more dominant irids, should have produced more irids, instead of red.

Unless one of the parents is marble or originated from marble line, I doubt your collections are marbles. IMO, the light colored fish is due to salamander line.

# 1. Body looks fine and has wide penducle. Fins also look acceptable . . . But not 100% sure. Pectorals look normal though (not EE).

# 2. Can't see much but anal looks too short (needs to be more forward ????). IMO, most concerning is the rather odd swimming.

# 3. Body seems okay. Fins are similsr to #1, but has split ventral.

# 4. Body could be better - slight dip head. Ventrals look curled (not sure if that is genetic - in this case). Can't really see fins properly

#5. Body is acceptable. Fins look okay. And has big pectorals.

I can't see #6-#11.


----------



## Mother Of Fish (Feb 11, 2021)

indjo said:


> What is your goal? What color/form do you wish to create. Knowing this would help us help you better.
> 
> Providing side view flaring pictures will help us better assess their quality - if that is important to you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed response!


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you!

Yes, I think I need to make a good video with them and put up an opponent so that the males show themselves in all their glory.

When I was spawning a pair from which these males were, my goal was to get good dumbo. But the appearance of marble ones confused me. And the idea came up to try to get something similar to koi colour.

It is very difficult to find good bettas here in Russia. And such colours as koi, candy and others like that are incredible rare. I only saw them in photo and video.
But I read that these colors were bred by selection from the marbled color.

Two days ago I was very lucky and in an ordinary pet store I bought a young female of koi color (or maybe candy, she is small and the color is still pale). And I think to breed that 1 male with her when they both will grow up.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

And here are the videos with males that are not visible in the first post.
6.




7.




8.




9.




10.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

And my favorite:


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I also thought ... Maybe I should leave some male for breeding halfmoons? Not necessarily dumbo. It seems there are some good ones in the brood ... It's just really hard to find good fish here. All the shops and shops prefer to buy in bulk from Thailand. Because of this, we almost no have people who breed fish themselves. So finding good quality fish is a difficult task...

So, it's seems to me that I need to keep 3 or 4 males.
One or two to work with the dumbo line.
One for experimenting with koi color.
And one to work with the halfmoons.

How do you think?


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Post side view flaring pictures (not video). I will try to assess as best I can and give you suggestions on which to breed further.

If you are up to breeding multiple pairs; you can breed each pair 2-3 times with a 1 week interval. Then you cross F1a x F1b x F1c.. keep doing this and eventually your stock should become unrelated and safe to breed for limitless generations. 

Or you could breed two pairs of siblings and cross their offspring. Keep doing similar to each generation and you should end up with safe stock.

*** Warning; you will end up with many fish to care for.

**** It is said inbreeding is safe until 6-8 generations. I usually only go until 4 (direct inbreeding)
. . . . . . . . 
Your plan sounds good. 
In fact, it is best to always keep 2-3 of each desired trait - these are living creatures with violent breeding habits. Any may get sick and die. With more than 1 of each trait, will better ensure the continuation of your breeding line.

Marbke is also known as jumping genes. Regular marbles usually start as colored then become cellophane and then back again to original color. Some may change again to a different color of the same genetic line.

Koi, candy, etc are what I call mutated marbles - meaning, instead of the regular color change tendencies, they change into a specific pattern. To my knowledge these mutated marbles are recessive and may lose mutation if crossed to non mutated traits.

That being said; if you cross a koi to solid colors, especially non marbled solids, you may lose the koi feature. Usually F1 will not give you koi pattern. But the mutation may return in F2 or 3. A friend pointed out that red yellow koi if crossed to solid red or yellow will most probably produce cellophane until F3 (he lost the mutation and did not continue to F4). Not sure how true this is. But many say crossing koi to solids will only produce fancy patterns in F1.

I'm not telling you to not cross koi to solids. I'm simply preparing you for the possibility so you won't be too disappointed.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you!

So much useful information. Thanks for sharing!

My grandfather has been raising fish for sale all his life. In 70s he bred bettas. Not for long. About 3 years. So he told me some things too. But at that time, in Russia only veiltailes were available. So grandpa can't give advice about another types of betta...

I didn't know that koi color is transmitted differently than marble. I thought they had a similar genetics.

But I still want to work with the koi color. I understand that the result will not be in the first generation. I'm ready for this.

But then what is the best way to do? Cross this koi female with one of the marbles? Or just with good solid color male? For example with 11 or with a red super delta (I have a good male).


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Koi, candy, nemo, and all those new names, were created by marbke genes. Some breeders have bred out the marble but most haven't because marbles are hard to breed out and (my guess) breeders want to experiment and see if they can create new mutations.

Many do not like irids on koi pattern colors. So they mostly breed to red or black lines. However, some who wishes more color on one fish would cross to the most colorful - like #11. . . . . Your choice.

My guess is you will mainly produce fancy patterns in F1. So you'll have to breed several generations to get desired multi colors.

*** Note: 100% of gene pool is about 1500 eggs. How many and which genetic combination survived is more about luck. This is why the punnet square equation often seems unreliable - even with simple base colors


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you. I will think about it.

In any case, I will try to work with it.
And I will try to make a good photo or video to show. It's will help to chose the best fish to breeding.

As my grandpa told me, it's easiest way to buy and cross two fish of the same color mutation. But trying to get what you want through selection is always more difficult but more interesting. And can bring some interesting results. If you bought some fish to work with, you never know what genetic it can carry. Because you will never know what kind of ancestors this fish had. So surprises are always possible.

I thought about 11 male, because I don’t know which female I bought. I mean I don’t know what type she is (but not veiled, according to my grandpa's words). And since work with koi gene is just ahead, then I hope that at least frys will take the form of fins from that male. Even if this is partially true, it is already good. And 11 have more colours than the solid red super delta.

Or spawn this female first with one male and then with the second? Then cross fish from these two broods?

Grandpa says that
I also can cross this female with a son from some brood.

But I not shure what's way is better.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Actually, if you cross your koi female to any non marble color of the same line, you will get similar results. Different results can only be obtained by experimenting with different color lines like; irids x koi vs red line x koi.

IMO, what is important is their fins. Although you may not produce desired colors, at least you will get nice forms.

*** More rays are recessive against fewer rays
HM x HM does not produce 100% HM. You will always produce "rijects" (the DeT).


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you.

Yes, because of the fins I thought to spawn this koi female with a good male. So that if frys will not have good colour at least the shape will be good. That's why I was thinking about the 11th male or about the red superdelta. 11 seems to be pretty good (what do you think?). Red is not bad either. And I dont know what type this female are. She was sold in pet market with other females. Those kind of females who are usually given to the store. That is, the cheapest and usually not very good in quality. So she can be anything. Maybe a delta, maybe a superdelta, or maybe a plakat or some kind of cross. So good male is important.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Here is that female koi.

I bought her a few days ago. She cost only 3$. Usually females costs about 5-10$.
She's in quarantine now.

I'm not sure what type of koi she is and not sure about the type of her fins. Also I don't know her age (grandpa assumed that she about 3-4 months old).

Who do you think she is? And how old she is?


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

And this is marble half-sister of my marble males. She is 3 month old now. I'm not really like her colour...


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

And here is male number 12. I did not show him because he injured his eye and I was treating him. Now he is better (but his eye is still a little cloudy). So I decided to show him to. I think he's pretty.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Can you take close up pictures - side view of them flaring. That way I can see their actual form and number of rays thus can mske better assessment. I'd rather not guess and possibly give you wrong advise.

If the half sister is a marble, she should eventually color up - but I can't say to what color or pattern.

The koi female looks decent enough. You can breed her for color and choose the best color and form to breed further.

Male #12 looks nice (not 100% sure). He might have bent rays but they shouldn't be genetic.
My guess: body looks to have nice top line and general form. Dorsal looks to have long front rays (ideal), caudal looks to have at least 8 rays (not sure). Anal looks fairly balanced to caudal. Ventrals are split though (undesired).

As not to lose EE trait, I suggest you breed a pair that has big pectorals. Both male and female should have big pectorals to ensure you better EE. You can even breed back to EE parent.

I cannot advise which male is best to breed because I can't see clearly. Until you show side view flaring pictures (not videos), I can't tell for certain. . . . Pictures of both desired males and females.
. . . . . . . . .
off topic
Can you please note the time and day in your next post. I am curious about the time difference between our areas.
It's Wednesday, April 21, 00.34 am where I am at.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Yes, I'll make good videos. I just don't have a small aquarium now in which I could make good shots. I want to buy one this weekend. And then make some good videos or photos.

Now in Russia 20:48 or 8.48 p.m.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Hi everyone! 

I bought an aquarium and was able to take photos and videos of my bettas males.

Today I will show only half of them. The rest of the photos and videos need to be edited.

All these males are from the same parents. Their father is Superdelta Dumbo (a pink salamander with a bright blue sheen). Their mother is a turquoise halfmoon with a dumbo gene (her father is a super delta dumbo and her mother is a halfmoon not dumbo). Some of this pair carries the marble gene (or maybe both). 

The numbering is different than in the first post. Because I don't remember what numbers the males were under last time ...

1). Dumbo. Halfmoon?


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

2). Halfmoon? I like this one. He's very bright and it seems to me that he has a good shape (maybe I'm wrong . I'm not very well versed yet).


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

3). Halfmoon? 
He was purple with red fins ... I liked him. He was very bright and charismatic. But then he decided to change the color. The result does not make me happy. And now I'm not sure should I keep him and see what colour he will become or is it better to sell him?


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

4) Is he superdelta? Or is it halfmoon?

This is a very shy male. I spent a whole hour trying to make him show himself and that's all I've got ...


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

5). Halfmoon?

My grandpa loves this male. He says that I should try breed this male with the whitest female that I have and maybe the offsprings will have the same whites colour.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

6) Superdelta?
I definitely don't like this coloration ...And especially these celaphan areas... So this is a candidate for sale. But grandfather says that perhaps the male will look better over time and may change color again.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Most of your males are rose tails (excessive rays). I'm guessing you bred a rose or a pair of 8 rays. Though they are now "safer" than early roses, you still need to be careful if you inbreed. It should be better if you can breed to unrelated fish - preferably to a 4 ray.

#1 IMO has the best overall form. His head might be a little off, but he has balanced overall fins.
Dorsal has nice long front ray and is at least upright. Rose caudal. Anal looks very nice, balanced and rather leaning forward. I can't really see ventrals, but guessing they are at least standard (width). And finally, he has quite big pectorals which is your original goal.

#2. Has better body shape, but dorsal could be better - it's good enough, just not perfect. Rose caudal, nice anal, and rather wide ventrals (good) - I can't see it they split or not.
However, he is not an EE

#3. (Marble) Nice general body, though top line is a bit bumpy. Dorsal is acceptable, though could be improved. Less rosing on caudal. Anal and ventrals look nice.

#4. Multi turquoise-red. He isn't in full flare so I can't really assess him. He doesn't have much of rosing so his fins looks neater. And they seem to be balanced

#5. overall is similar to the previous guys. Dorsal is a bit poor. But I agree with your grandfather - you could try breeding him to the whitest female to see what colors you get. Since he has nice genetic background, je should produce some nice looking fry. You just need to select to better ones.

#6. Doesn't look too good. Stair step dorsal, small caudal. Unbalanced anal . . . I suggest you sell him.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you so much!


I still don't know how to define what is good and what is not. This is my 3rd brood. I thought they were just halfmoons or super-deltas. I didn't know about rosetales.

Could you tell me please, where to read about rosetales? I know that breeders are trying not to work with them because they give problems on the genetic side and that a lot of fry die. But I still do not know how to define them, nor why this variety dangerous. Unfortunately, we have very little necessary information on Russian fish forums. Breeders really don't like to share information. Grandfather teaches a lot, but he doesn't know about the genetics of bettas. Because he only bred veil-tails (only they were available at that time). That's why I was looking for information on the English forums.

And another question, if both parents of these males carry the dumbo gene (the father is purebred and the mother is halfblood), then those males that did not take EE can carry it in their genes? I read that this is recessive gene.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

EE works similarly to DT. Not 100% will be nice pure breeds. Some will only be carriers/geno (they carry the genes but it doesn't show physically). In your case those that do not show big pectorals should, in the least, be carriers and should pass on the genes to their offspring (at least to a few offspring).

Regular HM has 4-8 rays. If you breed a pair of 8 ray HM, you will create rose tails. Adding rays can also be achieved by crossing 8ray to a DTHM. . . . Not sure which is safer.

Actual roses may have 16 rays . . . .rays are the bone structure on fins. Starts with one ray (usually 11 initial ray) which then branches into more rays. A 16 ray means at the end of the caudal, one ray end with 16 rays. 

Roses (8 ray x 8 ray) often produce bad genes which makes scales unaligned, caudal extra small, psle color, etc. And once this pops up in your breeding line, it will be hard to clean them out. That's why many avoid such roses. 

I have never personally paid much attention, but I think 8 ray x DT is safer when producing roses. . . .Or at least my DTPK x 8 ray PK did not produce deformed offspring - unlike breeding a pair of 8 rays.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Thank you!

Here is a photo and video of the rest of the males from this brood.

7) This is another marble. It's good that he's not a celaphan. But grandfather likes that male number 5 more then this one. Says this male has "weaker" fins.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

8) This is my favorite. I don't know if he is good by standard, but I like this male.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

9) Another dumbo.His dorsal and tail fall off a bit. It's too heavy?


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

10)


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

11) Someone bit his tail 2 months ago when I start to separate young males. And he still have that bite mark...


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

12) The last male from this brood.
I don't know how, but he damage his right eye. I treated him. I was afraid that this is beginning of some kind of illness ... But the male feels good. He have a good appetite. A little lazy. But the eye is still cloudy. So I think these are the consequences of his injury. Grandpa says if it's an injury, the eye can stay that way forever. So I can't sell this male. And if he is not needed for breeding, he will be just a pet.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

I also have this plakat male dumbo. I bought him 3 weeks ago. I wanted to buy a long-finned halfmoon dumbo, but I didn't like him (he was old,lazy and not good quality). That's why I took this guy. I read that short fins are recessive. So, I decided that I can breed him with my longfin females. But I don't know who he is. Halfmoon? Superdelta?


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

And I have this creepy looking male...My grandfather hates him. He swore a lot when I bought it. And he called him Coronovirus( because in russian word crown from crowntaile is "corona") ... Now this nickname stuck to that male.

This male seemed funny to me. And I liked the color. So I bought him as a pet. 
But I have no female crowntails. I did not plan to breed him ...
But now I think, what if you try to breed this male? Of course, this type of fins should not be introduced into the dumbo line in any way... But maybe, out of curiosity, cross him with superdelta or halfmun female? Curious what color and shape frys will be. Or I shouldn't do this?


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

There is also a male red superdelta. But he's in quarantine. So, I can't take a good photo of him now.

And that's all males i have now.

Tomorrow I'll start showing females. I have more of them than males.


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

Greetings! Here are the females I have. These are the sisters of those males. From the same brood.
1)









2) This female has large pectoral fins, but they have a jagged edge.









3)This female has the finest Dumbo fins.I called her Geisha. Because she looks like geisha dancing with a fans.
















4)









5)This female also has good pectoral fins. But not as big as number 3 (Geisha).
















6)


----------



## Julia S (Apr 13, 2021)

7)I think this female is marble. She had red fins and a bright turquoise body. And now she looks like this ...And she is Dumbo.









8)This female has a "saddle" on her back.She hadn't when she was younger. And she had a bright color, but the fins became whitish. Grandpa says that the "saddle" could have appear due to some injury. This female is the lowest in the hierarchy of other females. Perhaps they bit her in this place? Or is it genetic?









9)









10)









11) Also have good pectorals...


----------

