# Video of 6 week olds fed on BBS



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I have been researching lately more into the micro cultures that are fed to newborn fry.. I've been feeding spawns various amounts of it to see the differences in growth.

This video shows juveniles that had just turned 6 weeks old yesterday, as you can see they are roughly the size of 8-9 week olds. They were not power fed/grown - they were fed 3x a day on BBS, water changed every other day while fry, and every 2-3 days (a partial) as juveniles here. 

The cambodians are the 6 week olds. The blues in the video that are mixed in with the cambodians are almost 11 weeks old. A month+ older and a little smaller than the cambodians. Those were fed primarily those micro cultures (banana/walter worms) for the first 2-3 weeks of their life. As you can see.. there is a big difference. Research has shown that the micro worm cultures do lack a lot in overall nutrition when compared to the BBS. 

Also I have noticed that the spawns that had eaten only the micro worm cultures for the first couple weeks that every fish had either both ventrals missing, or one. One spawn no fish had ventrals. The less of the micro worm cultures I fed and the more I replaced with BBS, the less of the problems with the ventrals. It has shown by a few dozen top breeders who had done an experiment together that the micro worm cultures cause there to be problems with the development of the ventral fins, and not caused by environment. 

To me, seeing these barely 6 week olds who are approx 1.5" reach that size and have no ventral problems shows to me how bad the micro worm cultures can be to fry. Unfortunately, the blue spawn I had to cull all but a few as I really have no need/way to house 30+ fish that will be hard to find homes for due to their missing ventrals. 

I just want people to do more research into the cultures before deciding to solely use them as their first foods. I have since thrown all my worm cultures out and sticking strictly with BBS as their first foods. Just had a spawn hatch last night and so far have fed on BBS just fine..

The video isn't all that great, they were winding down from their lunch, so not as spunky with the big bellies  But hey, it's a video of young bettas, what's not to like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH5hS_y0zOY


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

Don't the bbs become useless when they are no longer babies? And how many days after hatching do you have till bbs are just brine shrimp? Because from what I have been told larger brine shrimp are like junk food yummy but not good. It's only when the brine shrimp are babies that they are good? 

What about feeding a verity? Some worms with bbs as the main food. I would think that to be best? If I get any fry from my spawning attempt I was planing on feeding bbs and vinerger eels both.


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## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Thanks for doing that!

I made the mistake of getting microworms to feed my little guys. I can't see ventrals yet, but then, they are tiny and the parents were white bodied and I can't see pectorals and can barely make out the other fins. I'm hoping that as they were basically in the open and the tank had lots of micro-life and mosquito larvae that they won't be too damaged

But I will definitely raise babies on brine shrimp from now on.

Except for a few. The research that you and whatsupyall prompted me to do on microworms made me realize this; bettas, in the wild, have a VERY high-protein diet. Microworms are raised on oatmeal or mashed potatoes, which have about 9% protein.

What if it is the diet of the microworms?
I'm going to try to raise a culture of microworms on soybean meal, which has 32% protien, and pulling some fry out of a spawn and feeding them those microworms, with the rest of the fry serving as control.

If it's actually the diet fed to the microworms, which are, in turn, starving the fry of protein, that's an easy fix. Soybean meal is $15 for a 40 lb bag. I could easily sell people sandwich bags of the stuff at cost.

I'm going to try another spawn this week. If it turns out, I'll do the experiment, and keep you all posted.


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

Riverotter:
You have given me an idea to use up some vegan protein powder that I bought and cannot choke down. I should be able to mix that with some coconut flour and make some sort of paste. I will be very scientific and we can compare notes. :-D


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

This was said to me by someone who was part of a very large research group about missing ventrals in fry/juveniles and this is basically their collective conclusion - the people who participated are some of the top breeders out there - not meaning they have the pretty fish, but meaning they have spent decades researching the fish as well as breeding them - 

"_It is important to keep in mind that there are several causes of missing ventrals but this seems to be the most common reason.
The original theory was that microworms sank to the bottom and died, causing a build up of bacteria that ate the ventrals away. Reasonable assumption!
Through discussions this is what we know.
1. Microworms, when fed ALONE for the start of the fry's life, are associated with missing ventrals.
2. Microworms sink to the bottom, and the fry get in the habit of foraging on the bottom, so some people conclude that being on the bottom is the cause of the missing ventrals.
3. Other foods also sink to the bottom, but do not cause missing ventrals. When tanks are left dirty on the bottom with non-microworm food OR a combination of microworms and other food, and fry ARE in the habit of foraging on the bottom, there are still NO missing ventrals.
4. This indicates that the problem with microworms is NOT due to foraging on the bottom.
5. Other fins are not affected by the microworm-only diet. This indicates that the problem is not a mechanical problem such as burning, but is happening at the developmental level.
6. According to Laura, "If the proper environmental conditions do not exist (if a certain molecule is not present) then the molecule-promoter interaction does not occur, and the gene is never turned on and is never expressed." It makes sense that the most likely environmental condition to go wrong is nutrition, since the problem is a LACK of a certain molecule. It could be some other environmental condition created by microworms when they are the only decaying matter, but the simplest and most obvious answer is nutrition.
Conclusion: The microworms are missing a certain molecule that interacts with the promoter to turn the "ventral gene" on. When microworms are the only food during a critical growth phase, the fish will not develop ventrals. If the fish eat other foods, the other foods will provide that missing nutrient to activate the "ventral gene._"
-Eryn Rosenbaum
Laura Bissonnette
Robert Panerio
Walden Nida
Suporn Khumhom
Hermanus Haryanto
Jack Schendowich
Kendra Watson
Ruth Masciarelli
Dusty Hodges
Jennifer Lapello
Dick Houston
Shane Cary
Gerald Griffin

In my experience, feeding some worms mixed with BBS gave me different results depending upon how much worms vs. BBS.

It may be the food of the micro worms, but if it is there may not be a whole lot of options - you have to consider whether or not the bedding for the worms can last as long as the oatmeal, etc, without spoiling (since the bedding needs to be moist). Have to also look at whether or not the food for the micro worms is something that is safe for the fish. Which makes me think that you would have to go to some good people, Riverotter, to ask about changing the bedding.. if it were something as simple as going to soybean meal, or adding vegan protein powder then I would imagine it would of been done already and had been switched to that rather than oatmeal along the way. If you want, me and one of those participants talk nearly daily and I can see their point of view on this.. but so far at this time there is no alternative known to change the fact the worms aren't as nutritious. 

I would say feed them the first day or two at the most and then switch.. or make sure there is a good variation between the worms and BBS so that the BBS can compensate what the worms are lacking. When I did a mix of both I got some wonky vents, some missing 1 vent, or short vents. 

Snowflake, BBS is good for the first 24hrs of hatching, why you should have 2 hatcheries going 24hrs apart so that every day you get a fresh batch of newly hatched BBS. After 24 hours the egg sacs (which is why they are very nutritious) are used up and most of the BBS end up dying as the way you hatch isn't how you are going to keep them. You are wanting to give the fry the egg sacs of the BBS - that is the good part, something the worms just do not have. 

Trust me, I know what I'm doing  Variety isn't as big of a deal that a lot of people make it to be, at least not at that young, 1-3 weeks. What you are wanting to focus on is nutrition. These are insectivores/carnivores - what they need it protein, regardless how it comes. All the vitamins and nutrients they need will be in those egg sacs from the BBS - just like with every animal in the world, there are "egg sacs", including us at first. It's full of the best nutrition in the world and nothing compares to it. So BBS is giving the fry all the protein, minerals and vitamins it will ever need those first few weeks. There is no reason at all to mix in variety - especially worms that provide zero nutrition. These are fish, not people who like to mix things up. Dogs and cats will eat the exact same food day in and out as long as it's nutritious for them and they get what they need. Same thing with fish. Variety is something humans crave and we think like humans and believe they need a variety. But at 1-3 weeks+, they absolutely don't if they are getting the proper nutrition. 

When they are older, mixing it up can help because they won't get as nutritious of food as they did when they were fry. So having a mix can help if you don't give them the proper live food for every meal. Manufactured foods can't give animals (and people) what their natural, live foods can.. so we give them different things in hopes to fill in the holes of one food or another.

So no, fry do NOT need variations in food - giving them the worms will actually be detrimental as they are not as nutritious as the egg sac of the BBS. 

Vinegar eels aren't the same as the micro cultures. They aren't as healthy as BBS, but they at least don't lack as bad as the bedded cultures.. they are fine for the first couple of days to give the fry something to eat to get a little bigger so they can eat BBS - the fry will still have the vitamins and nutrients from their own egg sacs the first few days of life when free swimming that the worms will be fine to feed then. But after a few days I strongly recommend just sticking with BBS.


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## Deanna01 (Apr 22, 2013)

Myates, do you think there's a way I could use one of these Hatch-n-Feed hatcheries when I'm doing a spawn, or since the water level needs to be fairly high for them to work, will it just not be a good idea?

I have this one: http://www.amazon.com/TM1198-Aquari...3498534&sr=8-1&keywords=brine+shrimp+hatchery


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I never used one of those personally, some people use them only when they are going to be gone for a full day and unable to feed the fish. I'm sending you a PM and I'll direct you to someone who may be able to help a little more with that in particular.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I would have to agree with you completely about feeding only bbs Myates. My experience shows the same as yours. I feed bbs 3-5x per day and with frequent water changes have had excellent growth. You can also add Selcon as a HUFA supplement to really get the fatty acids going. When the fry get older you can add NLS Grow to the diet as a 1st pellet as it is high in fatty acids as well as protein's. This combo has produced large very healthy fry for me.


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## Riverotter (May 15, 2013)

Myates, I would appreciate if you would ask how many different foods the microworms have been tried on, and if it made a difference.

I know it seems odd, but I couldn't find any note of raising them on anything except for mashed potatoes or oatmeal, and actually I wouldn't be at all surprised if no one had tried a higher protein mash for the worms. Most folks tend to do things the way others have done them.
I actually have a farm and a degree in agriculture and the question of nutrition 2 or 3 steps back comes up _all_ the time.

What I'll do is give the fry egg yolk until they're a week old, and then pull out a few and raise them on microworms raised on soymeal for the next 2 - 3 weeks weeks.
Comparing them with their siblings raised on BBS for the same amount of time should give results.

Ilikebutterflies, I would very much like to compare notes, if you decide to do this.


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## titolatino1970 (Mar 11, 2011)

im a novice I only got 9 spawns under my belt after my ventral fin fiasco I don't use cultures like that green water 3 days and from there I go straight to bbs I use vinegar eels after the second week sanfrancisco bay bbs is small enough for them to eat I could be wrong but that's what I do


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

Awesome info thank you for that. What about Infusoria and boiled egg yolk. What do you think of these foods? 

Then there is this idea that feeding too much BBS to betta fry will cause swim bladder disease. I find this to be silly, personally I think it is an Internet started rumor. I have delt with swim bladder problems and they have been in adult fish that ate too much. I have always been able to save the fish too. How could bbs being fed to fry cause swim bladder issues? What do you think.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

snowflake311 said:


> Awesome info thank you for that. What about Infusoria and boiled egg yolk. What do you think of these foods?
> 
> Then there is this idea that feeding too much BBS to betta fry will cause swim bladder disease. I find this to be silly, personally I think it is an Internet started rumor. I have delt with swim bladder problems and they have been in adult fish that ate too much. I have always been able to save the fish too. How could bbs being fed to fry cause swim bladder issues? What do you think.


Egg yolks are ok.. but they are messy, foul up the water quicker than anything else and stink. Infusoria is great if you can make enough to last a couple days..

Feeding any betta (fry or adult) too much could affect their swim bladder (intestines enlarged, pushing up on the swim bladder). So as long as you don't dump the whole thing in, it should be fine.. I have yet to have any SBD issues with any of my fry. If they do, Epsom Salt will help and fast them for a meal or two 



Riverotter said:


> Myates, I would appreciate if you would ask how many different foods the microworms have been tried on, and if it made a difference.
> 
> I know it seems odd, but I couldn't find any note of raising them on anything except for mashed potatoes or oatmeal, and actually I wouldn't be at all surprised if no one had tried a higher protein mash for the worms. Most folks tend to do things the way others have done them.
> I actually have a farm and a degree in agriculture and the question of nutrition 2 or 3 steps back comes up _all_ the time.
> ...


I will ask tomorrow!



logisticsguy said:


> I would have to agree with you completely about feeding only bbs Myates. My experience shows the same as yours. I feed bbs 3-5x per day and with frequent water changes have had excellent growth. You can also add Selcon as a HUFA supplement to really get the fatty acids going. When the fry get older you can add NLS Grow to the diet as a 1st pellet as it is high in fatty acids as well as protein's. This combo has produced large very healthy fry for me.


I will definitely look into Selcon and HUFA, thank you  
I use a mix of NLS Grow and Golden Pearls as their starter pellet food.. and they LOVE freeze dried tubifex.. most breeders I know who feed the FD tubifex end up with awesome results in growth as well


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