# Can Hard Water Harm? When do I see my betta get better?



## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

Housing 
What size is your tank? : 2.5
What temperature is your tank? : 76-78
Does your tank have a filter? : No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? : No
Is your tank heated? : Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? : none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? : Aqueon Betta Food (pellets) (now using Hikari) and Frozen Bloodworms (thawed)
How often do you feed your betta fish? : Every day except Wednesday. 4 pellets morning, 3 pellets night.

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? : Once a week 
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? : about 25% 
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? : water conditioner

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Both tanks had:
Safe levels/no Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite. (No chlorine)

Ph: around 6.8, low-moderate total alkalinity, really hard water.

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? : female- clamped caudal fin and looks skinnier. Male- fins look torn. Whites of his body turning blue.
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? : female- inactive unless approached. !!greeted today and she sunk down after a few strokes!! Male- energetic (change after getting PH to neutral through plants and driftwood). 
When did you start noticing the symptoms? : a month ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? : using recommended or a little less dosage of Melafix. 
Does your fish have any history of being ill? : no



In this forum, someone describes my problem with my male betta, whose fins are tearing from "some form of fin rot". Although I cleaned my tank less than what is suggested on here, ammonia and nitrite levels are non existent while nitrate is barely there if ever around. The person at the very bottom of the forum basically says that the hardness did play a role in their fish.. Now I want to hear from others if they had to deal with the same problem.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?...ly-hard-water/


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Uuh I wouldn't guess that it's hardness. How are you testing for ammonia?
If it isn't ammonia, which it sounds like, still 25% weekly is too few water changes. Over time your bettas will use up the natural minerals and oxygen and whatnot in the water, so even if the water is clean it will need to be freshened. In an unfiltered tank please do 2 100% changes weekly
The only way hard water will hurt your betta is if you don't acclimate your betta to an extreme change. If your betta has lived in soft water all it's life, you'll need to acclimate them to the hard water by starting them in soft (bottled) water and gradually upping the % of hard water per water change.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> Uuh I wouldn't guess that it's hardness. How are you testing for ammonia?
> If it isn't ammonia, which it sounds like, still 25% weekly is too few water changes. Over time your bettas will use up the natural minerals and oxygen and whatnot in the water, so even if the water is clean it will need to be freshened. In an unfiltered tank please do 2 100% changes weekly
> The only way hard water will hurt your betta is if you don't acclimate your betta to an extreme change. If your betta has lived in soft water all it's life, you'll need to acclimate them to the hard water by starting them in soft (bottled) water and gradually upping the % of hard water per water change.


Ammonia is non-existent when tested for. As for 100% water changes, I hear it will get rid most of the things fish need. I gather information from several sites and everyone has their own ideas what creates a healthy betta. Also, my male betta only has a problem with his fins being torn. Did you take the time to read the link I posted? I am wanting to hear thoughts. Also, how long should it be for me to see my betta's health change for the better?


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Your link doesn't lead anywhere except the main forum directory. I just told you my thoughts, I can't tell you anything until I know how you're testing and whether his fins are actually only torn.
Assuming it is only a tear, not any kind of rot or degeneration, or else assuming the cause of rot/degeneration is gone, his fins should regrow about 1mm a month. 
Honestly I'm more worried about your female, if she is having issues with her activity level and is clamped I would put her in QT and do daily water changes.
As for water changes "removing stuff the betta needs" that really applies to filtered tanks, where you want to keep the bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrites into nitrates, but in an unfiltered tank those bacteria will rarely grow, and of they do it won't be enough for a cycle to complete, meaning you need more water changes.
So I ask again: how are you testing your water? You should be using a liquid test kit, you should be taking water from the bottom-ish of the tank right before a water change. 
Also do you gravel vac with each water change?


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

Sorry about the link not working properly. What basically happens in that forum is that the poster has about the same problem as me.. Fins appearing torn and a type of fin rot. Everything tests fine except the water is really hard and the Ph was 8-9. Down further, a person answers back that they had the same problem, but changed to soft water and their bettas became vigorous in a short amount of time. Unfortunately, the poster never answers back if they did the same and if it worked. 

As for tests, I have it posted.. Unless you want the math of it. 
Most recent:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Hardness: 300
Chlorine: 0
Total Alkalinity: around 50
PH: around 6.8

Test before adding plants and driftwood:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Hardness: 300
Chlorine: 0
Total Alkalinity: 300
Ph: 8.4 

I use Tetra Easystrips and I do use a gravel vacuum each time I clean.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

ok. 
since youre confident in this ill give you the basic or "all natural" cure for every type of fin proble, for your boy and the "all natural cure" for your girl's clamping, since im not 100% sure whats wrong with her. 
for fin related problems start with daily water changes, in your case with bottled grocery store water, which should cost about a dollar per gallon, 1tsp/g aq salt for 5 days, raise the temp to 79, followed by daily changes with indian almond leaf for an additional 3 days. keep the ial in for about 2 weeks with normal water changes. if you have snails or plants that don't like salt you will need to qt one or the other. normally id say 100% changes daily but your fish aren't used to that and i don't wanna shock them, plus it'll help them acclimate to the softer water if you keep doing 25%s.
for your girl just do daily 25% changes with the soft water. if she doesn't look sick then she probably just has a lot of stress, maybe a minor case of sbd. clean and fresh water will heal most problems. i'd also add ial to her and raise the temp to 79 on her.
these are cures that don't use medicine, that will not do any harm to your betta. most of the time people will do these when they're not sure what is wrong, and when they find out they'll still stick to this.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

Bikeridinguckgirl14 said:


> ok.
> since youre confident in this ill give you the basic or "all natural" cure for every type of fin proble, for your boy and the "all natural cure" for your girl's clamping, since im not 100% sure whats wrong with her.
> for fin related problems start with daily water changes, in your case with bottled grocery store water, which should cost about a dollar per gallon, 1tsp/g aq salt for 5 days, raise the temp to 79, followed by daily changes with indian almond leaf for an additional 3 days. keep the ial in for about 2 weeks with normal water changes. if you have snails or plants that don't like salt you will need to qt one or the other. normally id say 100% changes daily but your fish aren't used to that and i don't wanna shock them, plus it'll help them acclimate to the softer water if you keep doing 25%s.
> for your girl just do daily 25% changes with the soft water. if she doesn't look sick then she probably just has a lot of stress, maybe a minor case of sbd. clean and fresh water will heal most problems. i'd also add ial to her and raise the temp to 79 on her.
> these are cures that don't use medicine, that will not do any harm to your betta. most of the time people will do these when they're not sure what is wrong, and when they find out they'll still stick to this.


Sorry for not being able to respond yesterday. I'm going ahead with 25% water changes daily, without softening, to see how that effects them. If you recommend I work towards 50% daily, I will do that. I also decided to get my 20 gallon tank prepped to divide them into 10 gallon areas. If ammonia was a problem, which might be since strips are unreliable, could both of their problems be from ammonia stress/poisoning? They aren't bleeding and there isn't red marks, but they both have symptoms from that problem. They don't seem to have trouble breathing, but maybe my eyes fail me? I do remember them doing a "yawn" in the water.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you post videos of them so we can see how they act?

The male sounds like he's biting his fins.

And yes, 'yawning' is normal for all Betta's. They're just filling up some of their swim bladder is all.


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## JHatchett (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm in a hard water area, I have liquid rocks for water. My GH and PH is right around where your's is. I have 8 bettas currently, and I haven't had any losses due to hard water. I'm doubtful that hard water is actually the culprit. Splendens are pretty resilient and as long as they are acclimate to it appropriately shouldn't mind the hard water too badly. Clean water is the most important.

The only thing that leaps out about your set up that could be causing issues would be the frequency of water changes. Test strips are notoriously inaccurate. It you want to get away with that few water changes on that size tank, I recommend a filter(like a sponge filter) and some live aquatic plants. I'd still do, at the very least, a 50% water change once a week with the aforementioned set up once cycled.

But really, a more accurate diagnosis could be provided if we could see a photo or video.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

This site wouldn't let me upload a video, so I will post a pic of them both on seperate replies. Reason why is because this site won't let me upload more than one photo from my phone at a time? Unless I just don't know how to change that..

The male swims around and will fully flare, even though his fins are rigid. He eats well and greets when I approach. 

The female might need the lid to be moved to bring her out in the open. She might flare, but her caudal fin won't fan out. After seeing her dorsal fin fan out, it does look rigid. Behavior wise, she likes to squeeze herself into her hiding spots to rest and will occasionally rest ontop of the anacharis and java leaves. When she is still, she will not move a fin. Sometimes, she will drop two of her fins and let herself sink to the bottom. She eats well and will swim back and forth against the glass when I approach, sometimes. 

Actually, I just witnessed her do something new. She quickly swam up to the top for a breath, came down to rest on a plant, and not a second later as quickly went back for a breath. As soon as she got her breath, she viciously charged at the moss ball and ran herself across the gravel a few times.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

JHatchett said:


> I'm in a hard water area, I have liquid rocks for water. My GH and PH is right around where your's is. I have 8 bettas currently, and I haven't had any losses due to hard water. I'm doubtful that hard water is actually the culprit. Splendens are pretty resilient and as long as they are acclimate to it appropriately shouldn't mind the hard water too badly. Clean water is the most important.
> 
> The only thing that leaps out about your set up that could be causing issues would be the frequency of water changes. Test strips are notoriously inaccurate. It you want to get away with that few water changes on that size tank, I recommend a filter(like a sponge filter) and some live aquatic plants. I'd still do, at the very least, a 50% water change once a week with the aforementioned set up once cycled.
> 
> But really, a more accurate diagnosis could be provided if we could see a photo or video.


I answered more and attached the photo of the male to the other response. With the new test, the ammonia was at .2


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Velvet is a possibility here if they're trying to scratch (called Flashing) against objects and their fins seem stiff. Can you shine a flashlight on the fish and take pictures that way from both above and the side?

Yeah I think from a phone you can only upload one at a time, I've never attempted it so I'm not too certain on that but it's what I've observed at least.

Poor girl, for starters, she has a prolapsed anus which basically means her innards are sticking out from her anal port. It's usually not fatal since she'll most likely still be able to digest stuff but clearly, it's not pretty to look at. She does look like she may have a little bit of fin rot going on. I'll wait until you get the pictures preferably with flash on or a flashlight.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

lilnaugrim said:


> Velvet is a possibility here if they're trying to scratch (called Flashing) against objects and their fins seem stiff. Can you shine a flashlight on the fish and take pictures that way from both above and the side?
> 
> Yeah I think from a phone you can only upload one at a time, I've never attempted it so I'm not too certain on that but it's what I've observed at least.
> 
> Poor girl, for starters, she has a prolapsed anus which basically means her innards are sticking out from her anal port. It's usually not fatal since she'll most likely still be able to digest stuff but clearly, it's not pretty to look at. She does look like she may have a little bit of fin rot going on. I'll wait until you get the pictures preferably with flash on or a flashlight.


I don't see her flashing often, and I read somewhere that it is not to be of a concern if it isn't often? Am I mistaken? 

As for the prolapsed anus, I don't see anything hanging out.. Was it because of the picture? If so I am sorry! She doesn't like to stay still for pictures.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

Top


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

A better view from the side.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ohhh...was it her ventral hanging down then? My bad. Looked like a prolapse.

Flashing occurs usually from stress if it's only once in a great while, however if you see them doing it a few times a week, then that's an issue.

At the moment, I'm going to recommend a salt bath for the both of them. Basically it's done once a day more towards night time for best results. You'll take an extra gallon tank preferably or two or half gallon if you need to. Then it's easiest to use their own tank water for the bath water so they're mostly used to it. Then before the fish goes into that bath, you mix up 1 tsp of Aquarium Salt per gallon (so if it's only half a gallon then you use .5 teaspoons of Salt) and mix it in some small cup and then add to the bath tank.

Then once that's all set up, you can scoop out the fish from the regular tank and let them acclimate to the water for a few minutes; add a few teaspoons into the cup that he or she is floating in and then you can let the fish into the bath water. Let the fish soak in it for 30 minutes.

When the bath is done after 30 minutes, you'll need to net the fish out and put back in the normal tank so that little to no bathwater gets into the normal tank. It's a little stressful for the fish so this is where it's good to be nighttime; throw a towel or blanket over the tank so it's nice and dark. The darkness will help calm the fish down. You can do the bath nightly or every other night if you see they're too stressed. If there is no improvement after a few nights then we can look to see if antibiotics will help.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

lilnaugrim said:


> Ohhh...was it her ventral hanging down then? My bad. Looked like a prolapse.
> 
> Flashing occurs usually from stress if it's only once in a great while, however if you see them doing it a few times a week, then that's an issue.
> 
> ...


Yea, sorry about that! I had no idea that photo would cause confusion. I have been eyeing the salt bath treatment on another site, and they said about 15 minutes, but I think that was in a more concentrated amount. 

I know you say to do them both, but I have noticed a behavior improvement from him. I cannot tell if his fins are growing back to normal just yet, but he is always swimming around and seeming to enjoy himself and his home. Should I go ahead an just give him the bath anyways?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, it's good to just do one. It may help improve his liver and kidney function as well. If you wanted, you could do half dose for him just to give him a little something to see if it helps. With her though, I would definitely go the full 1 tsp/gal - 30 mins. You could increase it to 2 tsp/gal - 30 mins if she seems to respond but still seems to need more. But for the first night, I'd just do the regular one first to see how she responds, if at all.


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## IIMEIPII (Feb 5, 2015)

lilnaugrim said:


> Yeah, it's good to just do one. It may help improve his liver and kidney function as well. If you wanted, you could do half dose for him just to give him a little something to see if it helps. With her though, I would definitely go the full 1 tsp/gal - 30 mins. You could increase it to 2 tsp/gal - 30 mins if she seems to respond but still seems to need more. But for the first night, I'd just do the regular one first to see how she responds, if at all.


Alright, I will definitely treat them both. Thank you for the help!


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