# Help!! Mysterious Sickness!?



## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Mods, I know I've posted a thread about this betta in the last few days, but this is totally different. That was a thread on getting him situated until I could get him a tank and heater. This time I think he is seriously sick and needs immediate attention!

Thresh, the guy I rescued the other day, is acting really weird! Yesterday he was flaring at the mirror, swimming around and exploring, acting like a normal betta. Today, he won't eat, he won't flare at the mirror, he stays in the corner... Please help!
When I rescued him, he had some mild finrot, but I'm afraid it may have gotten worse! Now his vents are at least 75% black, and the tip of his anal fin is turning gray?! His eyes are a little cloudy. Today, he only comes up for air, hangs in the corner, and after he gets a gulp or two of air, the back end of his body falls while his nose stays touching the surface. Then he begins to slowly float tail first to the bottom. He stays there for a few minutes, then goes up for air and repeats. Sometimes he'll stay in the corner with his tail down. 
Info:
He lives in a 2.5g with a heater at 77/78 F. 
No filter and no tank companions. 
For the couple days I've had him, he eats 5-6 Omega One Betta Buffet pellets twice a day. 
All silk plants, and a coffee mug as a cave. Some gravel and decorative rocks.
He was put in this new tank yesterday and was totally fine. He flared at the mirror and swam around exploring. 
I've been treating him with 1tbsp of AQ salt per gallon of water (2.5 tbsp)
I literally just did a 40% water change 10 min ago (replacing the salt)
All lights have been turned off to give him some privacy
He has a small red area on his body that looks like an ammonia burn or something. He came with it so it's been there a while, I'm guessing the previous owner.His eyes are a little cloudy, and his stomach is grey... I'm attaching some pics 

Does anybody have any idea what's wrong? I'm baffled! I don't understand how he can go downhill so quickly when he was perfectly fine yesterday!
Someone please help!! (Sorry for the sideways pic)


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Pic of his stomach and fin rot:


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Pic of red ammonia burn on his side


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Pic of cloudy eyes:


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Last one! Pic of what he looks like at the surface:


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

He died... Right after I posted this I went to check on him and I couldn't find him and he was hidden in the plants dead!!! I'm so mad at myself!! In throwing away the plants and the cup... And I don't know what to do!! I'm just crying and hate myself so much!! What did I do wrong??!!!!!
I'm blaming the cup, but I'm also blaming myself.. Something went wrong and it's all my fault!!


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Awww...SIP little guy. :-(

If this was the "mystery disease" (I believe it's been found to be Myco), no part of this was your fault. It hits, it hits hard, and it hits fast. There isn't anything you could have done to treat it even had you caught it sooner.

The biggest thing now is sanitizing the tank. Bleach won't work on this, you'll have to use rubbing alcohol. On every surface. Anything porous will need to discarded (nets, filters, plants) as you won't be able to sanitize them.

I'm so, SO sorry for your loss. But, this isn't your fault.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you.....
Is Myco the one that causes fins to go gray and kills fish within 24 hrs???!!!! I didn't even consider that....


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Yup - thats the one.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Omw....... This is horrible.....


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I do believe this is Myco.

so now for the bad news.... you have to literally throw out everything... the tank, the heater, the filter, the decor/gravel, any nets you use, plants, gravel cleaners, anything at all that has come in contact with the fish or the tank. 

I know this is horrible but there is no way to make a tank safe for a betta after Myco.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

......
Even after a rubbing alcohol wash???!!!!!!
I'm sorry, but my parents won't let me throw away $30 dollars worth of fish tank stuff that I just bought yesterday.... They said no.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Yes, even after a rubbing alcohol wash. 

You can keep the tank and equipment but you cannot put another fish or aquatic animal into the tank. The new fish will with catch Myco and pass away as well.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Someone else recently dealt with Myco - and from what I was seeing in that thread you could probably sanitize the tank and the heater. Possibly the plastic part of the filter, but the internal part would have to be tossed.

ANYTHING at all porous can't be reused. This includes plants, decorations, nets, etc.

For the tank itself, it can't be treated in a running tank and it can't be treated in live creatures. There was a lot of discussion about the actual tank equipment being sanitized though.

I'll see if I can find that thread, be aware though, that it's dealing with someone else's fish being lost through illness.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

This is horrible..... So terrible I just want to rip my hair out!!! Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you sure it's not Columnarus or Graphite Disease? I've looked into those but I don't know the difference! Help??!

Sry, didn't see the last post. No filter yet, thank goodness. I will throw way all gravel, rocks, nets, plants, etc, but parents won't let me throw away the tank and heater.... Thank you for attempting to find the thread!!


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Graphite Disease is Myco. That's what we're thinking happened here.

Here is the thread in question:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=512770


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## selah (Oct 14, 2014)

I was going to suggest that it was myco before I read through the whole thread.. that gray is telltale. I am so sorry for your loss, but you did the very best you could, you did nothing wrong..


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Her symptoms don't seem like his though... He just had gray on the tips of his anal fin. Then he floated to the bottom and died... 
I thought Graphite Disease and Myco were different.. My bad! I'm just super stressed rn....

Again, didn't see last post... Haha
So gray is a 100% positive sign for Myco, and no other disease?


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm sorry, I'm probably making y'all so frustrated right now trying to find different excuses.. I'm just finding this hard to accept...


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Yes, the gray on the fin is definitely myco. There is no other disease that would cause that grey on the fins. 

I know it is horrible and not easy to accept. 

personally, I've never heard of a person successfully sterilizing a tank after myco.


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## Tazo (May 12, 2012)

If you even SUSPECT mycos *please* wear gloves when handling anything that was in the tank and try to minimize your contact with it, including the water, any plants, etc., regardless of whether or not you are trying to sterilize it. Certain strains of mycobacteria can be zoonotic and you do not want to get infected. I am not sure if the "graphite disease" is one of these strains but you do want to be careful regardless.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

8%-10% acetic acid, which can be found in common grocery store white vinegar, was recently found to be effective in killing some strains of mycobacteria (link here). The antibacterial activity is unknown but linked to the structure of acetic acid and not to its acidity. The strain that causes graphite disease and fish TB has not been tested yet. However, I lost a blue betta to graphite disease back in the fall (my poor boy). I sterilized everything by completely soaking the equipment in white vinegar in a bucket overnight followed by lots of rinses with tap water. (Plants and filter material were wrapped in paper, securely double bagged and thrown in the trash.) I'm keeping one female blue betta in the cleaned tank for 2 months with no signs of myco.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok
I will try the white vinegar method AND do the alcohol wash. I'll probably even do it twice.
Out of curiosity, what happens to a fish if you put it in a Myco infected tank? No, I'm not going to do that, just wondering. 
And, again, because it's almost impossible to get me to accept something like this, since the gray was really dark, couldn't it be just fin rot and the coffee cup I put in the tank leeched out harmful chemicals into the water? I know, not very practical, but I thought I'd take a shot......

Edit: The link you posted just keeps saying "vinegar". Is it specifically talking about white vinegar, or can other vinegars be used?


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Another thought....
I just bought the tank yesterday. I can still take it and the heater back, get a refund, and get a 5g tank this time since they were out last time. Thoughts?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I've never heard of vinegar working, especially since the stuff they sell at the grocery store is not very strong. 

70% alcohol _will_ sterilize myco on non porous surfaces, porous surfaces are going to need to be thrown in the garbage unfortunately. 15+ minute contact time on every single square inch. 

@Zhylis... Keep in mind that myco can have an incubation time of up to six months...


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok
At this point I think a refund and new tank is my best option.....


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

If you return it, isn't that a little unfair to the next owner?


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

I am not an expert, but I did read that you could wash the tank with some type of pool cleaner or disinfectant and then with bleach and rubbing alcohol. But not positive and from what I read, the cleaner is very expensive.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

When in doubt, use both. No such thing as overkill when sterilizing. 

As for the paper, they actually used grocery store vinegar in the study I linked, which is from a very reputable publisher. The correct controls were included with three independent replicates, and then confirmed by collaborating labs in three different countries. An interesting note they made: the US lab used US grocery store vinegar (6%) and the French lab used European vinegar (8%-10%). The European vinegar was more effective. Contact time with the acetic acid was important. The longer the exposure, the stronger the reduction in infectious units measured in logs. To mimic real life conditions (hospital usage), they tested the effectiveness of vinegar with increasing amounts of serum (trying to block it's biocidal activity). As far as I can tell, the science is rigorous and well done, no matter how surprising the data. It is just one data point but the actual data itself is very strong. IME worth using vinegar against the aquarium strain, while keeping contact time in mind.

For myself, I'm keeping an eye on the blue girl, her tank, and her equipment. All located far, far away from anything else fish related. If she shows symptoms, I have enough laboratory grade disinfectants to stop anything microbial or viral in its tracks, and I'll be able to collect and analyze cultures. Incubation time depends on the clade; this doesn't act like M. marinum, which is slow growing and slow killing, it's more like the fast growers. From what I observed in my own fish, it's more like it's a latent infection that remains dormant until reactivated by something, stress, hormones, environment... It's unusual. Especially to cause cellular apoptosis so rapidly, almost viral in effect.

Edit: The reason I didn't use any of the alcohols to disinfect was because they can destroy some types of plastics and most rubbers. Like heater and filter gaskets. >.<



rubbie5837 said:


> I am not an expert, but I did read that you could wash the tank with some type of pool cleaner or disinfectant and then with bleach and rubbing alcohol. But not positive and from what I read, the cleaner is very expensive.


Bleach doesn't always work; I don't have the percentages at hand, but myco has a waxy coating that is hard for most chemicals to get through. >60% ethanol, 95% isopropanol, and 8%-10% acetic acid are the three that have been studied as effective against myco. And all three of those require soaking in order to be effective. Not just a spray and wipe.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok
I will talk it over with my parents
Will probably disinfect with white vinegar, but may do the refund route...


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

White vinegar will NOT disinfect the tank in this case. Matt said you should 70% rubbing alcohol.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

If you go the rubbing alcohol route, be sure to buy the 70% *ethyl alcohol*. It might be called 70% ethanol. The 91% or 70% *isopropyl alcohol* (more common) will not be effective against myco. (The 91% may be borderline.)


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Zhylis said:


> When in doubt, use both. No such thing as overkill when sterilizing.
> 
> As for the paper, they actually used grocery store vinegar in the study I linked, which is from a very reputable publisher. The correct controls were included with three independent replicates, and then confirmed by collaborating labs in three different countries. An interesting note they made: the US lab used US grocery store vinegar (6%) and the French lab used European vinegar (8%-10%). The European vinegar was more effective. Contact time with the acetic acid was important. The longer the exposure, the stronger the reduction in infectious units measured in logs. To mimic real life conditions (hospital usage), they tested the effectiveness of vinegar with increasing amounts of serum (trying to block it's biocidal activity). As far as I can tell, the science is rigorous and well done, no matter how surprising the data. It is just one data point but the actual data itself is very strong. IME worth using vinegar against the aquarium strain, while keeping contact time in mind.
> 
> For myself, I'm keeping an eye on the blue girl, her tank, and her equipment. All located far, far away from anything else fish related. If she shows symptoms, I have enough laboratory grade disinfectants to stop anything microbial or viral in its tracks, and I'll be able to collect and analyze cultures. Incubation time depends on the clade; this doesn't act like M. marinum, which is slow growing and slow killing, it's more like the fast growers. From what I observed in my own fish, it's more like it's a latent infection that remains dormant until reactivated by something, stress, hormones, environment... It's unusual. Especially to cause cellular apoptosis so rapidly, almost viral in effect.


Would you mind posting the link to the study? I don't mean that as being doubtful of your info, I'd genuinely like to see it. 

Incubation time (or more accurately, time before disease becomes symptomatic) varies depending on a number of factors... The strain being just one of them. The disease can be growing and producing granulomas long before the fish goes straight downhill in 24-48 hours like it does with this strain. 

For the sterilization... I don't see why you wouldn't use something that's known to be affective (alcohol)? Like why risk/experiment in a home environment with something that may or may not work... Of course you can use both (vinegar first to dissolve scum), but I wouldn't be suggesting vinegar on an equal ground with alcohol. 

Side note... Bleach *does not* kill myco.

Edit: Also, where are you finding the info that isopropyl is ineffective? I've used it, others have used it, and studies I'm seeing are saying it works...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

No problem at all, Matt. It was an interesting read. 

Here's the paper: http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/2/e00013-14.full

The backstory behind this was the US lab was using vinegar as the carrier for their anti-myco drugs, but the post-doc that was doing the benchwork noticed that the negative control (carrier alone) was equally or more effective as the carrier + drug. They tracked it down to the length of the carbon chain in acetic acid. The longer the chain, the higher the biocidal activity.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*The disease can be growing and producing granulomas long before the fish goes straight downhill in 24-48 hours like it does with this strain. *

It's possible that granulomas are forming before the fish hits the critical point. With M. marinum, you'll actually see them distort the body shape during a chronic infection. I wish I'd thought to do a necropsy... hindsight 20/20. This seems to spread from a point of injury though, at least from the photos on the graphite thread: tips and edges of fins then spreading from there.
_*For the sterilization... I don't see why you wouldn't use something that's known to be affective (alcohol)? Like why risk/experiment in a home environment with something that may or may not work... Of course you can use both (vinegar first to dissolve scum), but I wouldn't be suggesting vinegar on an equal ground with alcohol. *
_
Probably because I'm keeping her at work on a desk next to a laboratory with access to disinfectants, an autoclave, biohazard waste, and an incinerator. My thinking is, right now, this was a single tank in a controlled environment. Yes, the initial infection occurred at home but it didn't spread (luckily). If this had gotten into my fish room, it would have been game over. And then I'd either have to sterilize or trash all of my equipment. Gallon for gallon, vinegar is much cheaper than 70% ethyl alcohol. If it is anywhere near as effective as the paper reports, then I like to know.
*
Side note... Bleach does not kill myco. Also, where are you finding the info that isopropyl is ineffective? I've used it, others have used it, and studies I'm seeing are saying it works...*

My general understanding was that you needed a higher percentage of isopropanol (95%) to have the equivalent effect as ~70% ethanol on microbials and viruses. At least that's how our safety protocols read; I did inherit those so who knows how long they've been around. I was told they were based on the CDC standards for sterilization. Probably ought to double check that...


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

I am sorry for your loss. Check the top of the emergency section there Please Read this Sticky with lots of pictures and descriptions. As for your aquarium supplies this is from the Merk Vet Manual for fish:

There are no effective treatments that eliminate mycobacteria in fish. Mycobacteria can cause zoonotic infections, and aquarists should be informed of potential risks if handling or cleaning contaminated fish or exhibits. An infected aquarium should be disinfected before other fish are added. Bleach is not an effective disinfectant against mycobacteria; disinfection with alcohol or phenolic compounds is recommended.

If you intend to reuse any of the supplies pay attention to the last part. Again I am sorry for your loss. 

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/fish/bacterial_diseases_of_fish.html


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

The one thing I have not seen suggested to the OP is to avoid purchasing any more bettas from the same place you purchased your infected fish from. There's no telling what kind of protocol, if any, thry have in place to combat myco snd you can be reasonably sure they they use the same equipment from one fish to the next.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

I think this was a rescue - the OP got the betta from a previous owner who could no longer care for their fish.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok... Now I'm genuinely confused.... All the science terms are going in one ear and out the other (I'm in bed sick right now and having a hard time comprehending)
Could somebody please break this down into simple terms and explain this to me. Some of you are saying White Vinegar works, some are saying it doesn't. And you all say >70% Ethonol Alchohol works as long as you soak the tank and heater in it. One of you said Alchohol will destroy the rubber part on the heater... True? 
So basically I'm just asking for a simple answer: 
Which would work better in my case? White Vinegar or >70% Ethonol Alchohol?


On a side note:
Thresh was in the tank no more than 30 hrs before he died. I got him out within 5 min of him dying. That was when I saw how cloudy everything was. All the water was very cloudy. I had assumed that the lamp was making the water look funny, but I was wrong. Also, in that 30hr time period, while I was watching him, I noticed a small bug on the top of the water. I scooped it out and thought nothing of it. A little while later I saw one literally float from the bottom of the tank to the top of the water.....! These are my last 2 theories before I make any final decisions. Y'all will probably scream at me, but I have to try. 
1- Due to the cloudiness, I sincerely think the new plants or the cup (which was made in China) leeched something into the water. When I took all the plants out, I noticed someone had written on one plant in sharpie. Couldn't that leech harmful chemicals?
2- Could he have eaten one of those bugs and gotten poisoned? 

One last question:
How long does it take for Myco to infect the entire tank? Considering he wasn't even in there for even a day and a half, and I got him out within 5 min of dying, would my tank be just as badly infected as someone who had their fish in their tank for 6 months and were at work when they died so they stayed in the tank dead for 4-5 hrs?

And btw, Thank you so much for all of your help! It really means a lot to me.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Just got done reading an article that stated that studies in the US determined that 6% acetic acid (slightly more concentrated than regular store vinegar) reduced the numbers of the mycobacteria to undetectable after being soaked for 30 min. They found that 10% Acetic Acid completely eliminated the mycobacteria after a 30 min soak. 
I don't know how to post the link, but the website is asm.org


Edit:
I read Apple Cider Vinegar is very high is acetic acid. Everything I pull up is saying acetic acid kills particularly stubborn strains of mycobacteria/TB
We have Apple Cider Vinegar. Could I use that to disinfect?


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Mom just called. I told her about the disinfecting and how it was contagious and everything.... She brushed it off as just the fish was stressed and didn't make it!!!! OMG! Do they ever listen??!
Now she said to clean the tank up, put everything back in its packaging, and we would return it this afternoon and get my money back. I wanted to return it, get a bigger tank, and get a new betta, but she said no....
But. The pet store I got if from only does money back on a gift card. Therefore, I'll only be able to spend that money at the pet store! But mom hasn't quite figured that out I guess, so we'll have to see how that goes this afternoon...
Thanks again for all your help! 
I'll update you later.. Again, thank you so much! You guys are awesome!


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## selah (Oct 14, 2014)

you do realize that if someone elsel buys that tank, their future fish will die.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

I've tried telling my mom that but she won't listen!!!


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## selah (Oct 14, 2014)

I am so sorry about that.. but if you have told your mom that you have done your best.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

what I know of bacteria, is that it can be eradicated no matter how stubborn it is. Some bacteria need a host to survive, others don't. In a way is similar to this disease your fish had, the outer shell can't be penetrated while its attached to its host. The key here is the fact that bacteria have a life cycle, and the best time to attack it is when its the most vulnerable - when it doesn't have a host to feed off. Here's my suggestion. Use all three methods, bleach, alcohol and white vinegar. Using one at a time, use a scrubbing brush to scrub the tank and heater while you pour the stuff in it. Rinse it off and leave the tank to dry out for two weeks, then repeat the process and leave it to dry out again. That will kill anything hiding in crevices. As for your mum, I'd suggest printing out info on the disease and make sure she reads it..


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

I've tried, and I've asked her to take me to buy the stuff to disinfect the tank, but she refuses to believe that a sickness took out Thresh in just a matter of hours! She claims over and over that he was already sick and the stress was too much, even after I told her how he was perfectly fine in the new tank the night before. I feel so bad but there's nothing I can do at this point...

I think my worst nightmare at this point is my other betta Prim dying. Her tank was only 2 feet away from his, although I'm 99% sure I haven't cross contaminated anything... I threw away his plants, gravel, thermometer, cave, and net. Even the cups and containers I used for his tank.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Good idea, sharkette. I'm also strongly against just returning the tank as it is currently, since it puts the next person at risk.

FishyW, here's the most up-to-date and accurate info on myco I could find: 

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/201...No.-4706-Mycobacterial-Infections-of-Fish.pdf

Best of luck with the parents...

Edit: Just missed your post Fishy. Ouch. Maybe ask the petstore employee to make sure to clean the tank well?


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok
I will definitely make sure to mention that to them! I would hate for a first time betta owner to do everything right and get their betta and have it die and then they never want fish again... The thought is heartbreaking...
The best I could do is maybe convince my mom to let me get a 5g and then get this beautiful marble veiltail that was there Saturday! He had painted lips and followed my finger and was simply adorable.. I'm not a fan for veiltail a but he was actually cute! I feel bad thinking about another betta though right after Thresh has died....


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Good news!!! My mom finally decided I could keep the tank and she would buy the stuff to disinfect it tomorrow!!!
What I have on hand now is Apple Cider Vinegar at 5% acidity because it's been watered down. My moms buying the original tomorrow, but this is what I have to work with for now. It's only about 3/4 a gallon, so I'll mainly be soaking the heater thermometer and bottom section of the tank.
My disinfecting schedule is as follows:

1st night(tonight)- soak Apple Cider Vinegar 5% acidity over night and during school. Rinse 10-20 times.
2nd night- Soak regular Apple Cider Vinegar overnight and during school. Rinse again.
3rd night- soak in bleach overnight and during school. Rinse again (just to kill any other germs. My mom insists.. I know it won't kill Myco.)
4th night- 30 min Alchohol scrub and rinse 
5th night- another Apple Cider Vinegar soak, ending with an Alchohol scrub in the morning 
Let airdry all Saturday, maybe an Alchohol scrub after 5 hrs of drying and then let it dry again. 

My grandma called a little while ago, and since she's the one who brought me the betta and just heard about it dying, she promised to take me out and buy me any betta of my choice! I love my grandma <3

Does this sound good to you guys? I might get the new betta Sunday if that's ok, but I'll wait till the week after if y'all think it would be best! Thanks so much!

***EDIT***
After some reading, I think I'll just do 30 min soaks instead of almost 24 hrs.. Seems safer. Or is it ok to soak an aquarium appliance in vinegar for 24hrs?!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm glad your mom came around! Sounds like anything that was once in there, will soon be deader than a doornail. 

I'd go 2 hours with the vinegar. Bleach can be diluted 1:10 for the hard to kill stuff and should work in 5-10 min. 70% ethanol should also be done after 5-10 min. Make sure everything is literally dripping wet, a spray bottle is good for that or just fill the tank up and put everything in. Try to work out any air bubbles. 

Just some safety precautions: Don't handle anything if you have open cuts, no matter how small. With the bleach, be careful not to get any on you, it can cause skin irritation. Let things dry on some news paper, that'll absorb any drips and can be thrown away afterwards. Anything that can't be cleaned, double bag it and make sure it's sealed securely.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Zhylis said:


> *The disease can be growing and producing granulomas long before the fish goes straight downhill in 24-48 hours like it does with this strain. *
> 
> It's possible that granulomas are forming before the fish hits the critical point. With M. marinum, you'll actually see them distort the body shape during a chronic infection. I wish I'd thought to do a necropsy... hindsight 20/20. This seems to spread from a point of injury though, at least from the photos on the graphite thread: tips and edges of fins then spreading from there.
> _*For the sterilization... I don't see why you wouldn't use something that's known to be affective (alcohol)? Like why risk/experiment in a home environment with something that may or may not work... Of course you can use both (vinegar first to dissolve scum), but I wouldn't be suggesting vinegar on an equal ground with alcohol. *
> ...


I've necropsied... Has to be around or over half a dozen bettas now, half with suspected myco cases. I haven't had access to a fish that did the acute fin necrosis, but the ones I've necropsied with suspected myco infections have shown chronic signs (ex: granulomas in abdomen cavity and in organs, seemingly misshapen spine that was not noticeable on live fish) along with more acute signs such as discoloration of the kidneys and liver. Just FYI... I know that it isn't the same thing as the strain that causes the fin discoloration. Not every case starts at an injury either... At least not a visible one. Not exactly sure what's being suggested there.

Makes more sense if you're doing experiments with access to lab equipment. Hence why I included the statement "home environment"- doing something like that is definitely not anything anyone who has things to lose should be doing at home! 

Check PMs for isopropyl info- including a CDC link. Also, apparently alcohol works better in the 60-85% range rather than 95-99%... Something to do with helping the desaturation of their proteins by the alcohol? You might know more... Just something I've seen in a few places. 

FishyWater2525... I'm definitely sorry for the off topic-ness and sometimes complex language, but conversations like these are extremely valuable! Information and our knowledge is constantly changing and it's places like here that we end up sharing that. If you would like it to remain strictly about your situation please do let us know, but having info like this in a public thread can prove invaluable

Your regimen sounds like it will work, just make sure to cover EVERY surface. Also, keep in mind that alcohol evaporates very quickly and will need to be sprayed on multiple times in the 30 minutes. I wouldn't recommend soaking the equipment in vinegar for _too_ long, but depending on the item 24 hours would be fine (glass), but 30 mins to an hour might be better for plastics.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks!
You guys are totally welcome to discuss whatever you want as long as it's helpful to anything or anybody!!!
Just got done with the 30 min soak and rinse
Will definitely consider all your advice and try it out! Thank you again!!!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Missed Zhysis's comment!! Thank you for the advice and precautions! Since I've already done the 30 min soak tonight, I'll do the 2 hr soak tomorrow. And by 70% Ethonol, are you talking about rubbing Alchohol?
And instead of literally soaking everything, I can just spray it till it's dripping wet and it'll do the same? Correct me if I'm wrong! I want to get everything perfect for the new guy 
When do you think is the soonest to set up and put a betta in the tank? Would it be ok to put one in this Sunday, or should I wait a couple weeks? It's so hard to see an empty tank and not seeing Thresh.. Even if I only had him a few days....

* Again, after considering all, I'll soak the tank 2 hrs and the heater 1 hr


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

MattsBettas said:


> Your regimen sounds like it will work, just make sure to cover EVERY surface. Also, keep in mind that alcohol evaporates very quickly and will need to be sprayed on multiple times in the 30 minutes. I wouldn't recommend soaking the equipment in vinegar for _too_ long, but depending on the item 24 hours would be fine (glass), but 30 mins to an hour might be better for plastics.


^ As Matt said, the rubbing alcohol will dry up from the surface pretty quickly. You'll need to keep spraying it on everything for at least 5-10 min or even up to 30 min. After some discussion, I think both 70% ethanol or isopropanol (aka rubbing alcohol) should be OK, whichever you have at home. After you've washed off the vinegar, bleach, and ethanol until you can't smell any of the chemicals, I'd fill the tank with water and add your dechlorinator to clean up any leftover bleach. Let that sit overnight, then you should be good to go. 

One caution: _*NEVER *_let the liquid bleach and the liquid vinegar mix. It will form a toxic gas (chlorine gas); that would be a _very bad thing_. I'd make sure the tank is completely washed out after the vinegar and before the bleach.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

MattsBettas said:


> I've necropsied... Has to be around or over half a dozen bettas now, half with suspected myco cases. I haven't had access to a fish that did the acute fin necrosis, but the ones I've necropsied with suspected myco infections have shown chronic signs (ex: granulomas in abdomen cavity and in organs, seemingly misshapen spine that was not noticeable on live fish) along with more acute signs such as discoloration of the kidneys and liver. Just FYI... I know that it isn't the same thing as the strain that causes the fin discoloration. Not every case starts at an injury either... At least not a visible one. Not exactly sure what's being suggested there.
> 
> Makes more sense if you're doing experiments with access to lab equipment. Hence why I included the statement "home environment"- doing something like that is definitely not anything anyone who has things to lose should be doing at home!
> 
> Check PMs for isopropyl info- including a CDC link. Also, apparently alcohol works better in the 60-85% range rather than 95-99%... Something to do with helping the desaturation of their proteins by the alcohol? You might know more... Just something I've seen in a few places.


My blue was an acute fin necrosis; I'm still smacking myself for not checking. I'll have to follow up on the M. triplex info; that's new for me. I kept trying to fit the known symptoms of M. marinum to what I was observing and just hit a wall. Checking the literature tonight.

Got the links, PM'd a question back. Double checked: so ethanol is much more effective against the virals we work with; isopropanol is slightly more effective against bacteria.
_____________________

Best of luck with your future betta, Fishy! Sorry again for all the science jabber. :roll:


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you so much! 
But, could I spray on the vinegar and bleach too, or do I need to completely submerge everything?
You guys are so awesome!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

It can all be sprayed as long as you keep everything dripping wet and make sure to coat every nook, crack, and cranny. Make sure to rinse very well between the bleach and vinegar.

Just to repeat: accidentally mixing vinegar and bleach will form a poisonous gas (chlorine gas). That would be very very (potential trip to the hospital) bad.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks you! 
I will definitely be sure to be extra careful rinsing in between the bleach and vinegar!!!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Matt, possibly relevant:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC98541/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC154687/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC229442/
_____________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11053375
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14766593


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## selah (Oct 14, 2014)

FishyWater2525 I am so happy that your mom has come around and that your gramma has offered to buy you a new fish..


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks you! I'm super excited because I've never had a male betta that I've cared for properly. Lol. Besides Thresh of course....
My last boy, unfortunately, lived in a .5 gallon bowl and only lived 6 months... Now I know better!!!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Mom bought rubbing Alchohol, but she got the 50% Isopropryl....


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I've never used it at that low of a percentage and personally would say 60% is a very bare minimum for most bacteria. With something like myco, I'd go with the 70-75% isopropyl. Could you ask her to exchange it?


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

She says 50% is the most they had and she couldn't find the Ethonol alchohol.
Will multiple 2 hr soaks kill all the Myco if I do it everyday all week? (5% acidity)


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

Do not knock yourself out about losing a fish, I have 15+ years experience and sometimes no matter what you do a fish is going to die, and sometimes fish you think are a for sure goner pull through. Keep in mind fish are like any other living thing including us humans sometimes we/they die for no other reason than it was their time to die.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Stone said:


> Do not knock yourself out about losing a fish, I have 15+ years experience and sometimes no matter what you do a fish is going to die, and sometimes fish you think are a for sure goner pull through. Keep in mind fish are like any other living thing including us humans sometimes we/they die for no other reason than it was their time to die.


The fish is dead. The problem is the symptoms before death point towards some sort of mycobacterium. The question now is whether the tank and equipment can be sterilized. 

FishyW, IMO the data in the paper is clear. Other people will have different opinions. It's good enough that I'm trying it with my own equipment and betta, but that's my personal judgement call to make. Since the science is so new, we can only learn whether it works by using the cleaned equipment with another betta. 

Honestly, 50% isopropanol alone is probably not enough, but in combination with everything else, it's possible you've killed off all the myco. You have as much information as we do (and if you have any questions no matter what, just give a shout out). Now it's your judgement call to make whether or not the tank is clean. No matter which you choose, you did your damnedest and at least there won't be a myco contaminated tank floating around a pet store somewhere.

Edit: As for multiple 2 hr treatments, it would only help cover any spots that were missed in the first go. I'd expect any myco to be dead by the end of the first 2 hr treatment.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Edit2: I'd go ahead and use the 50% isopropanol since that is what you have available.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok! Thank you so much!!!!
So the schedule no is:
Wed. Night- Alchohol soak for 10-15min
Thursday night- Vinegar Soak 2 hr
Fri. Night- Vinegar Soak 2 hr
Sat. Morning- Alchohol soak 10 min
Sat afternoon- rinse VERY well, fill with water and get betta on Sunday!
Sound good??


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Don't forget the bleach, may as well nuke everything.

Sat afternoon- rinse well, fill with water, add dechlor to neutralize bleach

Sun- throw out the water, replace with fresh, add more dechlor, get betta


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ok!!! I'll change the schedule to:

Wed Night: Alchohol Soak 10-15min
Thurs night: Vinegar soak 2 hr
Fri Night: Bleach soak 5-10
Sat: Rinse well, fill with water, add dechlorinator 
Sun: throw out water, add new dechlorinated water, get betta!!!!


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

As Matt has said above, Bleach will not kill the bacteria in this case.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

It will not kill the myco. It will kill any other bacteria in the tank. If you're going to clean something, you may as well clean it all.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Before I forget again, FishyW - Since it's 50% isopropanol, you'll need to increase the contact time to 15-20 min.

Based on the original 70% for 5 min:

Difference of 20% in isopropyl concentration = 20%/70% x 100 = 28.6% reduction in efficiency.

Round that 1/3 the efficiency, so triple the contact time to 15 min.

Meaning you need to _*treat for a minimum of 15min using 50% isopropanol *_in order to kill an equivalent amount of myco (10^6).


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you so much!
In order to be on the safe side, I think I'll treat it for 20 min


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

http://jcm.asm.org/content/28/10/2234.full.pdf+html

Matt, we missed something. The bleach concentrations tested had an upper limit. Because bleach is corrosive, too high a concentration would destroy the medical equipment before it disinfected it. Not an issue with glass. The paper linked above is the original reference quoted for sterilization. Check table 1: >10,000 ppm bleach kills myco even in the presence of other proteins and kills both in solution and on solids. Household bleach is 5.25% or 52,500 ppm. A dilution of 1 part bleach to 4 parts water should work. Plastics and rubbers are out though.

Also check 70% ethanol, it's only effective in solution in the absence of other proteins.
________

*
FishyW, increase the bleach concentration to 1 part bleach to 3 parts cold water when you clean.*


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

^fishy, to be clear, that bleach solution concentration is for the tank and *glass* part of the heater only. Don't clean plastics or rubber in that.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you for the warning!!! So, 1 part bleach to 3 parts Cold water, on glass ONLY. Got it!!
In your personal opinions, and answer honestly, do you guys think I will have killed all the Myco by the end of the week? Again, answer honestly.... I believe it'll all be dead by the end of the week, but I'm definitely not an expert! Lol
Seriously though, you guys are OUTSTANDING!!! Just being curious, are any of y'all's jobs in the field of science? Just wondering considering all the bacterial info and such.... Haha


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

My opinion: As long as everything and I mean_ everything_ was completely drenched in the three disinfectants for the correct contact times, it's dead. 

When you're done, do a sniff test. You shouldn't smell any chemicals; if you do, rinse until you don't smell it.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you!!!! 
Just one more vinegar soak and a bleach soak with maybe one more Alchohol soak!!! 
So much work for such a small tank..... Lol
Now I'm kind of glad I didn't get the 5g!!! Hahaha


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Haha, science was a favorite subject in school - but I've been out of school for a while.

I'm a network administrator now (or most recently - currently off work). Not science specifically (though some consider pseudo-science), but research and troubleshooting are required in my skillset.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

That's awesome!!!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Tonight's the bleach soak! Ill do one last Alchohol soak right after the bleach soak too 
Did the last vinegar soak last night and the smell was so strong my throat was stinging and tears were running down my face.... Is that normal?! Lol
Making sure to rinse the tank a few times before I do the bleach to avoid poisonous gas!! 
Is it ok to fill the tank tonight, then throw out the water tomorrow night, then refill and decorate it?? I have church on Sunday, and right after the service, my grandmas taking me to the petstore down the road to get the betta because the church is 45 min away from the house... Long story short, do you think that'd be ok?
If I was to wait until Sunday to throw out the water, I'd have to wait until I've already got the betta, then I'd have to fill and decorate, and I don't know if I'd have enough time to acclimate him before Sunday night service...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Lol, yes. That's the acetic acid you smell. Cleans the sinuses right out!

You can definitely throw the water out tomorrow night, the dechlor should work within seconds if not minutes to neutralize any leftover bleach. 

Good luck on your betta hunt!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you so much!!!!!!!

**Actually, my sinuses have been seriously bad the last week, and since last night, my left nostril hasn't stopped up once.... Lol!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Done with the bleach, doing the Alchohol soak! I never want to smell Alchohol or vinegar ever again!!!!! Lol


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm gonna jump in with a question about the bleach. I lost my boy Jasper to what I believe is the same thing Thresh had, (didn't notice the grey fins until after he had passed and never noticed them when he was alive) and I'm studying on how to disinfect the tank and heater since I've resigned myself to the fact that's about all I'll be able to salvage. You said 1 part bleach to 3 parts cold water on glass only. Is it possible to use it on acrylic? The tank I have is the Aqueon Minibow 2.5 gallon acrylic tank and the heater is a Hydor 25W adjustable heater. I'm planning on doing a 70% ethanol soak like no tomorrow on the tank when I can get it and maybe vinegar in between, but I just want to be sure I get it all disinfected. I want to get a new boy next weekend, but that's not long after I can start disinfecting, I do have an extra 1.5 gallon tank I could keep the new guy in if I get a new guy until the 2.5 gallon is finished being disinfected. I've already got a new baster to scoop poop and uneaten food and do other things in the tanks, and I'm getting a new syringe next weekend to dose prime (for now using baster for that too.) I've already tossed my net, my plants and gravel and decor from the tank, only kept the tank itself and the heater and thermometer. I also have a thread under tanks, habitats, etc labeled "Sterlizing tanks" I'm looking for any advice. Any advice much appreciated.


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

On the way home with the betta!!!! I can't wait! He's either a halfmoon or super delta (he was labeled as a halfmoon, but I'm leaning towards super delta.. Lol) Here's a pic!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

He's also a butterfly


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

He's gorgeous! I'm hoping to find a marbled next weekend, cause I'd love to watch the progression. Or just a more interesting coloration lol. I have a bicolor, two multicolors and a yellow/black marbling boy.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Gorgeous fish!


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## FishyWater2525 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you!! He's acclimating now!


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