# Thin lethargic betta



## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

Hi guys,

Help!

Over the past few weeks my betta fish has grown thin and lethargic, with torn fins and a dull powdery appearance. 

No new decorations have been added to his tank for several months, so the torn fins are a mystery to me as much as anything else.

I checked his water conditions about a week ago. PH was a little high, so I brought it down using Top Fin PH decrease and changed the filter cartridge. I checked again this week and it was a TAD high again, so I dosed again with PH decrease. PH is now sitting at 7.0.

He eats Fluval Bug Bites Betta Formula, usually twice a day during the week (he is at my desk at work), though recently I have been trying to feed him more frequently throughout the day in hopes of putting some weight back on him.

He lives in a 5 gallon planted tank with a nerite snail and two ghost shrimp (I have been told ghost shrimp do better with more companions. I am in the process of adding to them!). The crew currently gets a 1 gallon water change once a week. He is my first betta. 

I have only had him since July, so I still consider myself new to betta care and recognize that you may have spotted many mistakes in my routine. I appreciate any assistance you can provide!


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi!
If you wouldn't mind, could you answer the questions in this form? It will help members give you more accurate replies 








*****PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Fill out this form so...


Many thanks to BF/TFK Member Mike for developing this questionnaire. It is the same form with a few additions. Please copy and paste into a new message and complete this form when seeking help for your Betta. This information and a clear photo posted directly into the thread will help us give...




www.bettafish.com


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Hi!
> If you wouldn't mind, could you answer the questions in this form? It will help members give you more accurate replies
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely! I'll have to post an update after I've had a chance to do a second water check today (I only tested PH this morning to make sure it was where I think it needs to be)

*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank? -*5*
Does it have a filter? -*Yes*
Does it have a heater? -*Yes*
What temperature is your tank? -*77 degrees Fahrenheit *
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? -*My tank does not have an air stone, but it does have live plants.*
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? -*One nerite snail and two ghost shrimp

Food:*
What food brand do you use? -*Fluval bug bites betta formula*
Do you feed flakes or pellets? -*I think they're pellets but they're so tiny it's more like dust. I was considering switching to Fluval tropical formula when he gets a little energy back.*
Freeze-dried? -*Very rarely he gets freeze dried treats.*
How often do you feed your Betta? -*It was 2 times a day, Monday through Thursday (my work days), but since he's looking so thin I upped it to three times.* How much? -*Slightly more than he will eat. He will usually eat a portion about as big as his eye.

Maintenance:
Before* your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? -*Once a week*
What percentage of water did you change? -*20%*
What is the source of your water? -*The sink in the break room.*
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? -*I vacuum a bit, but I have been avoiding sucking up the dirt.*
What additives do you use? *Water conditioner with each water change or top up, and the Top Fin PH Decrease as needed.* What brand of conditioner? -*AquaSafe plus

Water Parameters:*
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water _before_ the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH: -*7.0*
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms? -*He has been seeming a little low energy for about a month to a month and a half. He had a stressful run-in with the night cleaning crew right before that which had left him with low water for the weekend and I believed he was still recovering from the trauma. He was doing a little tail biting surrounding that incident, but stopped a few days afterward. When I knew he should have been recovering faster, I was also juggling some terrifying deadlines and didn't have the time to give him as much attention as he needed. Finally last week I was able to really start focusing on him, which was when I noticed that he was also thinner than he had been and his fins were more tattered than they should have been just from the little stress biting he had done.*
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? -*His fins are ragged but the edges are not discolored. He is thinner than he used to be. His fins and scales look powdery and dull.*
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? -*He was a little low energy but has become extremely lethargic in the last two weeks.*
Is your Betta still eating? -*yes, but he won't chase down food. He only eats what floats very near him.*
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? -*I did a 40% water change last week and I treated the water with PH decrease, but I wanted to get advice from those more experienced before I did anything else.*
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? -*No*
How long have you owned your Betta? -*Since July.*
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? -*No.

I also included a picture of the tank set up and a picture of Max for additional reference, if helpful!*


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi!
Try a few 50 percent water changes. I can't advise regarding the soil cleaning, I have a barebottom tank  but I'm wondering if there's poop and food collecting there?

I think I'd stop the PH adjustments, it's more vital to keep the ammonia and nitrites at zero.

I don't know if this will help him, but you might also pick up something like New Life Spectrum Small pellets too. You could also try a food ring to contain the bug bites dust, that might help him as well.

He could also benefit from a tall silk plant or two, and possibly a floating betta log, because there's not much at the top of his tank to give him cover/"shade", as sometimes the biting is from stress.

When you said low water that weekend, did the filter and heater stop functioning?


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> When you said low water that weekend, did the filter and heater stop functioning?


The water level was far below the minimum line, but both the filter and heater were still operating!


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

When I checked the water last week the only thing that looked abnormal was the PH. I will check again this afternoon and get specific numbers for today, in case I'm misinformed about what the numbers should be or if something spiked over the weekend.


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## Suzisnapdragon (Oct 1, 2020)

I would definitely stop toying with the pH. Bettas can adapt to a wide range but abrupt changes can be really harmful.


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

Ammonia: *0 ppm*
Nitrite: *0 ppm*
Nitrate: *0 ppm*
pH: -*7.0*
Hardness (GH): *My kit doesn't test hardness or alkalinity. Is there a recommended kit that can?*
Alkalinity (KH):


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Draig dw i said:


> My kit doesn't test hardness or alkalinity. Is there a recommended kit that can?


It's strips - I don't know if you care about that, but Tetra's Easystrips 6-in-1 does.

Did something else happen the weekend that his water level ended up so low? Since the heater and filter continued to function I can't see that he came to much harm. Did the cleaning crew move his container around several times or something of that nature maybe such that he was jostled a lot, and frightened? Anyway, moving forward I would just go with more water changes, rotate his feedings with a different food for the nutritional value, obtain some tall silk plants so he has more shade and hides, and ensure that you're getting the poop and leftover food off the soil.



Draig dw i said:


> He only eats what floats very near him.


Try a food ring, - a shower curtain ring can work or even a couple straws bent and linked together would help keep his food contained for him .


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## Suzisnapdragon (Oct 1, 2020)

Draig dw i said:


> Ammonia: *0 ppm*
> Nitrite: *0 ppm*
> Nitrate: *0 ppm*
> pH: -*7.0*
> ...


API has a KH kit I’ve used to figure out why my snail’s shells were eroding but it doesn’t seem relevant to your situation and as mentioned, it’s not something you should usually try to change. That will only make matters worse. I’m kind of surprised it’s even mentioned on the form. It seems like your betta needs frequent small meals to regain strength, clean water and low stress environment. Messing with your water paramaters (outside of just regular water changes) will only add to stress.


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

I think someone knocked into his tank the weekend the water ended up low; it looked like a ton of water had sloshed out. Lots of water damaged papers near by. No note from anyone taking responsibility, so just detective work on my end to try and piece together what happened.



Mbpoppy said:


> Try a food ring, - a shower curtain ring can work or even a couple straws bent and linked together would help keep his food contained for him .


I'm not sure if I have really explained what is happening here; he lays on the bottom and will not move to get food. He will only eat what sinks near him so he can reach it without having to swim. The only time I have seen him swim at all this week or last was to shift his position along the bottom or to go over to the filter intake where he can let the water pressure hold him to the side. I am not exaggerating when I say his energy levels have TANKED in the last two weeks! I am happy to try a food ring. Do you really think that will help with the immediate problem?


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

You're right, I didn't realize he wasn't coming to the top. A ring would help the most in keeping food contained on the surface. 

Can you help him by obtaining a good pellet food such as New Life Spectrum Small pellet, put a couple on the surface and tap on them so they sink for him? When he eats those, do another couple of pellets and repeat.

Is he coming up and breathing? Maybe lower the water level so he doesn't have to swim so far for breathing.

Have you tried rooibos tea or indian almond leaves, and as mentioned by @Suzisnapdragon , water changes?


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

How high was the ph when you treated it? Drastic changes to the PH can be harmful and especially so if he already had some kind of trauma. Do you have a thermometer? If the heater was on but not completely in the water it may not be functioning properly. Stress can definitely kill fish or leave them susceptible to disease. Since his water parameters are good I would think that maybe it’s stress from whatever happened with the cleaners. I would maybe suggest upping the cleaning to two per week with vacuum when he’s back to normal.


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

He does come up and breathe! I could definitely lower the water level to give him less of a trek to the top. I could do New Life Spectrum small pellet; I also have access to Bug Bites Tropical Formula for Medium Fish, which has pellets about as big as his eye. Would those be good, bad, or somewhere in between? This morning I put his food dust in a turkey baster with some water and gently squirted it near him, which seemed to help him get a little more food.

His PH level was at a 7.6 before dosing. I regret adjusting it if that caused him additional stress. There have been no changes to his appearance or behavior since I dosed the water. He was thin and lethargic before and he is thin and lethargic now.

Would the stress from what happened with the cleaners have continued for several weeks and kept getting worse? That sucks. If that's the case, is there anything I can do or am I stuck just watching him stress out until he dies?


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Have you tried rooibos tea or indian almond leaves, and as mentioned by @Suzisnapdragon , water changes?


Tell me more about rooibos tea and indian almond leaves! I've been doing regular water changes, but following the suggestions here I'll do a few 50% changes and see what that does for him. 

At this point I feel like he is dying. I don't think there's anything I can do that's going to make the situation worse, but I'm still hopeful of making the situation better!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Sadly, fish are so fragile that even a week in seeking help can be too late for successful treatment.

If a Betta has a filter it doesn't need to surface to breathe. They are call faculative breathers. This means their gills are their primary breathing organs with the labyrinth reserved for emergencies. However, there is anecdotal evidence that Ammonia is higher near the bottom of the tank. Instead of lowering the water level, purchase a breeder's box and attach it to the side of the tank. Get one that is made of mesh/netting and add plastic wrap as a cover so he can't jump out.

Doubtful he's suffering from long-term effects of the tank trauma.

Instead of trying a different pelleted food, go for frozen Bloodworms or Baby Brine Shrimp or use the Fluval Medium formula. Many Betta that are not doing well will eat frozen or live when they won't eat pellets. Frozen or live is always a good addition to ill Betta that are still eating.

When you do water changes, always, always vacuum. Detritus sifts down into substrate and that's where it can rot and cause issues.

Can you take him home? If so, I would urge you to do that ASAP. You can monitor him better and he you can care for and observe him seven days a week.

So, for now, all you can do is hope for the best and try to get him to eat, keep his water at it's cleanest which would be two, 1.5-2 gallon water changes and vacuum per week. 

Rooibos and Indian Almond Leaves have mild antibacterial and antifungal properties. In this case, either would give him a more soothing environment. Make a strong "tea" of either, treat and pour into tank until it is the color of the one below. I would suggest you also float a leaf or teabag in his tank. Keep the adding either for at least a month. In addition, keep his tank lights off so.









KH and GH are included should people seek help treating fish and invertebrates where knowing either parameter is needed.


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## Draig dw i (Jul 20, 2020)

Hopeful news! This morning Max swam for his breakfast! I'll take him home with me today and see what I can do for him over the weekend.


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

Best of luck Draig! We are all rooting for you and Max 💜


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Great to hear! Good job! I hope he continues to improve!


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Draig dw i said:


> I could do New Life Spectrum small pellet;





RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Instead of trying a different pelleted food, go for frozen Bloodworms or Baby Brine Shrimp or use the Fluval Medium formula. Many Betta that are not doing well will eat frozen or live when they won't eat pellets. Frozen or live is always a good addition to ill Betta that are still eating.


I personally think the New Life Spectrum Small, plus RTST's advice


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