# Fin rot not improving



## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

Housing 
What size is your tank? 3 gallons
What temperature is your tank? 80
Does your tank have a filter? yes (Tetra Whisper 10)
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? None

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari Betta Bio-Gold
How often do you feed your betta fish? once a day (4 pellets max) 5-6 days. Fast one or two days a week

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Every other day
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? Lately about 30%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? API water conditioner, API stress coat, epsom salt

Water Parameters:N/A
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters? No =(

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Just his fins because of the fin rot
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? He still acts the same. He's always happy to see people.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? A little over a week after I got him.
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Yes, I started with the aquarium salt treatment and did it for 1 week. Water changes was 25% one day, then 50% the next, and I even did a 75%. I stopped because I wasn't seeing any improvement and I read on the forum that someone said to leave them be and let them heal on their own. Left him alone for about a week and then decided to use epsom salt. Been doing 1.5tbsp/gal for a few days. Read that you could go up to 3tbsp/gal so that's what I did for yesterdays water change.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? Just the fin rot
How old is your fish (approximately)? No idea. Got him at Petco

I'm doing the best I can to take care of him, I promise!  Today, I noticed his caudal fin is no longer smooth along the edge :-( The anal fin some days ago became straight. I don't know what happened. One day, I looked into his tank and the part that was missing from the anal fin was gone except for 2-3 tiny, stringy pieces still connecting and then later on in the day, those pieces were gone. Now it looks like most of that fin is starting to heal though..? Ugh I'm just so frustrated and sad! I've been doing research on how to care for him and whatnot and I feel like no matter what I do, it just isn't working.

Before I started the epsom salt treatment, I cleaned out the whole tank and kept him in clean water with the additives needed. There's no gravel in there because I wanted to make sure his poop was normal, which it is. All that is in the tank is the large silk plant and his little hiding spot. The temperature is always at 80 and I even replaced the filter cartridge. I figured I should replace the cartridge to keep the water nice and clean. So yes, I do need to start over on cycling my tank, but for now, it's just being kept nice and clean so my boy can heal


How he used to be:









How he is now..










Since I have created a thread of my own for my boy, I would love advice and suggestions from anyone  I'm starting to feel helpless for him..

How much water conditioner and stress coat should be added to 3 gallons? I read from the smaller bottle of api water conditioner to do 6 drops/gallon, which is what I've been doing. As for stress coat, it says 1ml/2gallons and double the dose to replace the slime coat and to repair damaged skin and fins. 

Also, how often should I be changing his water and how much? Should I keep his tank empty of any decor? Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

epsom salt wont do anything for fin rot, as long as its not getting worse, he will be fine, i would do 50% water change every day, without taking him out, add as much water condidtioner as it says to on the bottle, and you shouldnt need to double dose the stress coat. dont worry about not seeing improvement, it would take well over a week to notice anything different, and the difference will be very small


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

also in the first picture where it says how he used to be, he had fin rot then too, if hes had it for an extended period of time, it will take longer to heal, you shouldnt need to medicate unless he loses more than half of his fins


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

sorry for the multiple posts... but you baffled your filter right? i have the same one in one of my 10 gallon tanks and the current was way too strong


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

cjconcepcion said:


> epsom salt wont do anything for fin rot, as long as its not getting worse, he will be fine, i would do 50% water change every day, without taking him out, add as much water condidtioner as it says to on the bottle, and you shouldnt need to double dose the stress coat. dont worry about not seeing improvement, it would take well over a week to notice anything different, and the difference will be very small


He's had fin rot for 3 weeks now  I know the epsom salt isn't for treating fin rot, but I can't go back to aq salt since they say not to go past 10-14 days and I don't want it to damage his organ :| I feel like his fins are just very slowly going away rather than healing..I will do a 50% water change today!


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

cjconcepcion said:


> also in the first picture where it says how he used to be, he had fin rot then too, if hes had it for an extended period of time, it will take longer to heal, you shouldnt need to medicate unless he loses more than half of his fins


Oh if that's fin rot then that makes me feel better to know I didn't cause it :shock:



cjconcepcion said:


> sorry for the multiple posts... but you baffled your filter right? i have the same one in one of my 10 gallon tanks and the current was way too strong


What do you mean by baffle the filter? I have it set at the lowest level and my betta doesn't seem bothered by it


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

salt is salt, the epsom salt will hurt him too, just clean water, if you live in a rural area and have oak trees nearby, you can pick some dried oak leaves off of the ground, winse them off really good, and put them in the tank, they will release tannins that will help him heal (it will also turn the water brown, but this is a good thing)


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

a baffle is something that reduces the current, i didnt know you could control the flow on it though... mabye i just have a really old model. if he swims towards the filter does the current push him around at all? if it does than the filter is probably too strong


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

cjconcepcion said:


> salt is salt, the epsom salt will hurt him too, just clean water, if you live in a rural area and have oak trees nearby, you can pick some dried oak leaves off of the ground, winse them off really good, and put them in the tank, they will release tannins that will help him heal (it will also turn the water brown, but this is a good thing)


Oh darn :-( I read in some posts for some threads that epsom is ok to use for long term (not that I was planning to use epsom salt on him for weeks or anything! It's only been a few days). I don't have oak trees around that I know of..I searched on ebay and found this: Amy's 10 Grd A+ INDIAN ALMOND (CATAPPA/KETAPANG) LEAVES | eBay



cjconcepcion said:


> a baffle is something that reduces the current, i didnt know you could control the flow on it though... mabye i just have a really old model. if he swims towards the filter does the current push him around at all? if it does than the filter is probably too strong


No, he doesn't get pushed around. He never had a problem swimming all over his tank. He even likes going behind the filter! :roll:


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Aquarium salt (_sodium chloride_) and Epsom salt (_magnesium sulfate_) are two different salts with some of the same actions and some that are different.

Epsom salt is safe to use long term if needed and it also has antibacterial/fungal properties that can help with fin/scale issues.
Aquarium salt has been known to cause kidney damage with long term use and should be limited to 10-14 days in therapeutic dosages for treatments with this species.

What I would recommend right now-I would QT him in a small bare container that can be floated in his heated tank to maintain temp in the 76-78F range for treatment.

Premix some treatment water in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water-Add either aquarium salt 2tsp/gal (_if its been 5 days since last used_) or Epsom salt 2tsp/gal. Add a tannin source either IAL (_1lrg crushed/gal_) or dried Oak leaf (_20crushed/gal_) Let this steep for 30min so the tannins can start to release and salt to dissolve. Shake well before use...

Using this premixed treatment water make 25% water changes every 15min for 1 hour today while he is in the small bare QT container.
_He needs to stay in this small QT in the premixed treatment water for the duration of the treatment period of 10-14 days
_
Tomorrow-using the premixed treatment water make daily 50% water changes. _If you used a tannin source the water should look darker every day._

Nutrition is really important for the healing process and immune response-If you have access to mosquito larva offer several rinsed several times a day to boost protein intake to promote healing.

Often with the Long heavy fin males-their fin can be really delicate and the water movement from even a low flow filter can be the cause as well as space. The more they use those delicate fin to swim the higher the chances for damage. Also, items in the tank itself especially plastic plants, rough substrate, items that can pinch the fins etc...all can be the cause of damage to the delicate long fin males heavy fins. Once the damage has happened this opens them up to secondary infection-Fin rot.

Sometimes we have to slowly move them to larger tanks with filtration in step. Sometimes this helps and sometimes it doesn't-these abnormal long heavy, delicate fins as beautiful as they are-will never be able to tolerate too much space-especially with water movement.

Once you get the infection cleared up and you start to see some new growth at the tips-usually clear to white in color. Re-acclimate to his tank, however, I would recommend that you re-eval your decorations and remove anything that could possibly be a cause, remove the filter and get on a regular water changes schedule of twice weekly-1-50% and 1-100% to maintain water quality, keep tannin in the water to help toughen fin/scales and improve nutrition by offering a more varied diet fed in small frequent meals.

Remember that often once the fins are damaged they may never return to their full glory.

Lovely fella by the way.....


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

I'll buy the IAL online today. as for the QT container, the only thing I have is the container I brought him home in. Would that be okay?


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

Also, about the filter, would it be okay to keep using it if I were to baffle it as cjconcepcion mentioned? And how do I baffle a filter?


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

sorry for the misinformation (is that a word? lol) i was told before that epsom salt could damage them too :/ 
Yes you can use the container you got him in, and of course you can keep using the filter once its baffled... let me find the link...


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=30139

^^ see if this one works for you, weve got the same filter and i baffled it a different way, let me know how the above filter baffle works for you! if it dosent i can always show you how i made mine


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks, cjconception! Will look at the link once I get home from work tonight =)


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## Chibi (Jun 21, 2012)

I used melafix to help Vader regrow his tail from his tail biting episode. It worked really well and it is a natural remedy that also help with tail/fin rot and etc... You could also try that..  please follow the instructions though, Good luck!


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## MollyJean (Dec 29, 2009)

I've bought from Amy on E Bay, even her grade C leafs are nice, but it can take a while for them to arrive. If you can find oak leaves at a friends house or the park, do it. They'll do the most to heal the fins, more then any salt would.

I'm curious though; Sometimes there's a good reason for fin rot. What kind of decorations does he have? What kind of lighting? And how heavy is the traffic in his area. Sometimes it's something as simple as stress. That first picture looks more like biting then rot to me, though, so maybe the rot was brought on by the biting... And there are so many reasons a betta might tail bite!


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

Chibi said:


> I used melafix to help Vader regrow his tail from his tail biting episode. It worked really well and it is a natural remedy that also help with tail/fin rot and etc... You could also try that..  please follow the instructions though, Good luck!


Thank you! I will look into that!



MollyJean said:


> I've bought from Amy on E Bay, even her grade C leafs are nice, but it can take a while for them to arrive. If you can find oak leaves at a friends house or the park, do it. They'll do the most to heal the fins, more then any salt would.
> 
> I'm curious though; Sometimes there's a good reason for fin rot. What kind of decorations does he have? What kind of lighting? And how heavy is the traffic in his area. Sometimes it's something as simple as stress. That first picture looks more like biting then rot to me, though, so maybe the rot was brought on by the biting... And there are so many reasons a betta might tail bite!


I don't know of any oak trees around me or over at any friends place =\ We have a big park, but I rarely ever walk through it. Mainly cars go through it and whatnot. I wouldn't receive the IAL from Amy until the 6th :| but it is what it is!

This is how his tank was set up. I removed the gravel though to make sure he was pooping properly. All he has now is the large silk plant and that little hiding spot which he LOVES going into. Ignore the level of water in this picture. I was still in the process of adding water and I always fill it up to under where the water flows out of the filter. Also, the back part of the tank is covered, which you don't see in the picture. The amount of light you see in the picture is about what I get in my room (In San Francisco, we don't get a whole lot of sun/warm days). Other than that, I have the LED lamp that comes with the tank. My room is pretty quiet because its at the back of the house, away from the front where the street is. I'm on a quiet, non-busy block, too, so he rarely hears any noise from cars/motorcycles.


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## Chibi (Jun 21, 2012)

Just read some articles/info regarding melafix for bettas. It can actually harm them instead...  sorry sorry!!! There's bettafix which works like melafix but it's diluted and is better for bettas... However, I say you should use OFL's method... I'm pretty sure she knows better. 

PS. nice tank!


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

I believe what you have here is tail biting not fin rot. I also recommend treating with AQ salt.

I wouldn't use bettafix. I've read way too many problems about them.


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

Chibi said:


> Just read some articles/info regarding melafix for bettas. It can actually harm them instead...  sorry sorry!!! There's bettafix which works like melafix but it's diluted and is better for bettas... However, I say you should use OFL's method... I'm pretty sure she knows better.
> 
> PS. nice tank!


I've read some posts that don't support bettafix :| And the leaves wont arrive until the 15th =( .. gahh! 

Thanks =) Wish I went for the 5 gallon from the start..



FishyFishy89 said:


> I believe what you have here is tail biting not fin rot. I also recommend treating with AQ salt.
> 
> I wouldn't use bettafix. I've read way too many problems about them.


Tail biting leading to fin rot, yea? =\ I think he's getting more stressed out since his home isn't the same as it was..


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

mizzlainy said:


> I've read some posts that don't support bettafix :| And the leaves wont arrive until the 15th =( .. gahh!
> 
> Thanks =) Wish I went for the 5 gallon from the start..
> 
> ...


No. I don't believe there is fin rot here. Unless you haven't changed his water in ages. This isn't fin rot.


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

I wasn't able to quarantine him in a smaller container. I got a pet keeper that is 0.75 gallons, but couldn't get it to stay put while floating in the tank and I don't have anything to keep it still. Plus, the temperature wouldn't stay the same as the water in the 3gallon. My room gets really cold, so I can't leave the betta in the container w/o a heater. I can't afford another heater at this point, so I cleaned out the 3 gallon as best as I could and put him in there. Been doing 50% water changes every day and today marks day 5 of the 10 day treatment. The filter isn't running. He gets 4 Hikari pellets each day and fasts one day. He was fed a bloodworm the past couple days from my sister (2nd day was without informing me) and I already informed her not to do it anymore since that's supposed to be more like a treat. 

You can sorta tell in the pics that his caudal fins are REALLY torn now...the dorsal and anal fin have been healing nicely and now I notice that around the gills are some odd color which might be ammonia burn? If I'm wrong, then I'd be more than happy to be wrong about that. I won't be getting the IALs until around the 16th or later..There are no oak trees that I know of around me.

















Do I stop treatment or continue it until I reach day 10? I honestly feel like he's going downhill little by little  !! I'm trying the best I can, but to see him worsen is so devastating!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

What treatment are you using right now, and unless you have high levels of ammonia in the source water or forgot to use dechlorinator or your source water goes through a salt water softener unit-the 50% daily will prevent any ammonia/chemical burns.

Has his behavior changed...


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> What treatment are you using right now, and unless you have high levels of ammonia in the source water or forgot to use dechlorinator or your source water goes through a salt water softener unit-the 50% daily will prevent any ammonia/chemical burns.
> 
> Has his behavior changed...


2tsp/gal of aquarium salt into dechlorinated water, 50% water changes daily. Last night, he seemed a bit different, but it seemed like it was because he didn't want the light on (that came with the tank). He acted like the light was too bright and would hide in a shaded area of the tank until I turned it off. When I shut the light off, he went back to swimming around the tank. Other than that, nothing different that I know of..

Right now I'm watching him and he's his usual self.


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## MistersMom (Aug 9, 2011)

ive heard Maracyn/furan 2/ or kanaplex work great. Ask Aus, she has dealt with fin rot on her rescues before.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I would give him more time, keep the light off or dim lit and even decrease the water changes to 50% every other day while the filter is off-provided that you don't have a lot of uneaten food in the tank or other livestock-especially if you have a sprig of live plant or better-a floating plant like water lettuce to float in the tank-this will lessen stress even more since you don't have the tannins to add yet....
Good that he is still acting okay otherwise....It can take weeks to months for the fins to regrow once the secondary infection has cleared up and sadly sometimes the fin never look the same after damage-especially since it might be fin/tail biting....

Keep us posted.....


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

MistersMom said:


> ive heard Maracyn/furan 2/ or kanaplex work great. Ask Aus, she has dealt with fin rot on her rescues before.


Do you know where I could get this "maracyn"? 



Oldfishlady said:


> I would give him more time, keep the light off or dim lit and even decrease the water changes to 50% every other day while the filter is off-provided that you don't have a lot of uneaten food in the tank or other livestock-especially if you have a sprig of live plant or better-a floating plant like water lettuce to float in the tank-this will lessen stress even more since you don't have the tannins to add yet....
> Good that he is still acting okay otherwise....It can take weeks to months for the fins to regrow once the secondary infection has cleared up and sadly sometimes the fin never look the same after damage-especially since it might be fin/tail biting....
> 
> Keep us posted.....


If I start doing 50% water changes every other day, do I still add 2tsp aquarium salt for 5 more water changes or just 2 water changes and keep the treatment going only up to 10 days? Today marks day 6 of the 10-day treatment so that means I would leave the tank alone today, change 50% tomorrow, leave alone next day, and change 50% on the 10th day. As for food, he eats up the 4 pellets that he gets, so there's never any leftover food in the tank 

I will try to find water lettuce!


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## MistersMom (Aug 9, 2011)

Online.... :/ i hate online stuff, since you have to have a credit card.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I would have your treatment water premixed in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water to use for your water changes-This is so you can maintain the therapeutic dose of salt when making partial water changes.


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

MistersMom said:


> Online.... :/ i hate online stuff, since you have to have a credit card.


Ah darn it! =( I'll look into it



Oldfishlady said:


> I would have your treatment water premixed in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water to use for your water changes-This is so you can maintain the therapeutic dose of salt when making partial water changes.


I have a gallon jug that I use to do exactly that! =)


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

mizzlainy said:


> Ah darn it! =( I'll look into it


If you have a debit card you can use that to pay online.


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## mizzlainy (Jun 13, 2012)

FishyFishy89 said:


> If you have a debit card you can use that to pay online.


Poor college student with a good amount used on the credit card =( gotta wait till i receive financial aid once school starts before I can use it again..


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## Orangeblood77 (Apr 7, 2012)

FishyFishy89 said:


> If you have a debit card you can use that to pay online.


Not a good idea to use a debit card on line.


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Orangeblood77 said:


> Not a good idea to use a debit card on line.


Really?
How so?
Debit cards use what you have as cash. The bank just holds your cash and gives you a card that has the amount of cash you gave them to hold.
I purchase several items online and use my debit card. I have no problems and no issues.


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## MadameDesu (Feb 5, 2012)

FishyFishy89 said:


> Really?
> How so?
> Debit cards use what you have as cash. The bank just holds your cash and gives you a card that has the amount of cash you gave them to hold.
> I purchase several items online and use my debit card. I have no problems and no issues.


Same here! Debit cards are safe as long as you're not buying from some skeezy site. 
PayPal with debit cards is doubly safe.


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