# I think he's a she, but it's a little... complicated.



## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Here is my original post about my new at-least-partially-albino fish (and my avatar, Kaspar).

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=83708

I... think he may be a she.

S/he gorged him/herself on frozen brine shrimp tonight, and I thought I saw an egg spot. S/he also doesn't have a visible beard, but s/he is a very young fish. About as big across as a US nickel, not counting caudal fin. 

I mean... I know how to sex bettas. But this one has me baffled. I've never had one this young before. How can I tell? Might his/her light color make it more difficult?

This fish is also blind. I've heard that one can put a sighted male in with a blind male, as the blind male is no threat because he doesn't have a visual territory. I have two other males, but that still wouldn't prove anything, I don't think, because a male will fight a female if either one isn't ready for breeding. 

HALP??? :shock:


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

His body shape and anal fin suggest male to me.

I've found that my plakat males tend to have a more angulated anal fin than my females.

You can always just wait until that tail grows back in to get a more definite answer.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

My friend's betta is blind from genetics... Definitely no threat to anything  

And to me it looks like a female. Usually by the time they are 3-4 months males make themselves out to be.. Well.. Males by flaring, showing off, and having longer fins and a lot more color. Which then it makes him/her look male because there are colors showing vividly. But because of the blindness it makes it more difficult! Lol


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

I thought that too (looks male) but s/he IS a very young fish.

And someone on the other thread suggested s/he may be a lyretail. If the tail has been bitten, it looks AWFULLY symmetrical. Not to say it wasn't bitten, but it seems to me that if it was, it would look more raggy and torn up like all fins do when they get roughed up (my delta, Angelo) is always tearing his fins, so unfortunately that's something I have a lot of experience with.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> My friend's betta is blind from genetics... Definitely no threat to anything
> 
> And to me it looks like a female. Usually by the time they are 3-4 months males make themselves out to be.. Well.. Males by flaring, showing off, and having longer fins and a lot more color. Which then it makes him/her look male because there are colors showing vividly. But because of the blindness it makes it more difficult! Lol


S/he is ablino (at least partially)... s/he doesn't *have* color to show. LOL.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

He might be a runt, particularly if as you mentioned he is blind and shows some sort of albinism. 

You'll have to keep us updated on whether that tail comes back in or not.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

LittleBettaFish said:


> He might be a runt, particularly if as you mentioned he is blind and shows some sort of albinism.
> 
> You'll have to keep us updated on whether that tail comes back in or not.


Oh, I will. I love Sunny and Angelo dearly, but this little one is INTERESTING.

Part of me wants to try like hell to breed it, regardless of what gender it is. I have 2 males that would "go" great with her if she's a she, and I have a source for awesome females as well.

There was guy in Germany in 1960-something that bred an albino male, and another one did it in 1994. I *can* be done, and I'm persistent.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

IMO that's a guy - his dorsal and ventrals says so.

I wouldn't call him an albino because he has color - half of his body and all of his fins has irrids. He is quite common around here - a mix between white/cellophane and green.

You need to be extra careful when you breed blind bettas, they might get killed. Mine was only half blind, but she is still difficult to breed- she always gets beaten up too much regardless of how I set up the breeding tub.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

indjo said:


> IMO that's a guy - his dorsal and ventrals says so.
> 
> I wouldn't call him an albino because he has color - half of his body and all of his fins has irrids. He is quite common around here - a mix between white/cellophane and green.
> 
> You need to be extra careful when you breed blind bettas, they might get killed. Mine was only half blind, but she is still difficult to breed- she always gets beaten up too much regardless of how I set up the breeding tub.


You guys have the red-eyed ones too?

And yep, I get that. There's a risk of losing one or both fish anyway, but moreso when one doesn't know all of what's going on.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I agree with male. He's probably underdeveloped since he couldn't find food well or compete with his siblings and etc.. He's really cute. 
I'd be careful breeding him though. His blindness is likely due to genetics which means he'll pass it on to his fry. Albino is cool and all but albino animals (no matter the species) are more prone to illnesses, blindness and unhealthy recessive traits. Let's just say, they are generally unhealthy compared to their pigmented counterparts... There are reasons that there aren't any albino betta strains out there atm...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

No, that was 2 different comments - 
1. about albino's - your guy
2. about breeding blind bettas.

I don't have an albino, well not one with red eyes. I only have colorless (totally flesh color - fins are rather transparent). She's only 2 months old.

The half blind girl is a different fish - yellow. I tried to breed her 3 times but had to call it off because she was always getting badly hurt. I might have had a spawn if I went on. But I fear of losing her the long run due to infections in.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

DarkMoon17 said:


> I agree with male. He's probably underdeveloped since he couldn't find food well or compete with his siblings and etc.. He's really cute.
> I'd be careful breeding him though. His blindness is likely due to genetics which means he'll pass it on to his fry. Albino is cool and all but albino animals (no matter the species) are more prone to illnesses, blindness and unhealthy recessive traits. Let's just say, they are generally unhealthy compared to their pigmented counterparts... There are reasons that there aren't any albino betta strains out there atm...


I agree with this. As an angel breeder, there's a reason nobody has albino angels anymore. Several reasons.

But albinism is autosomal recessive. Which means if bred to a non-albino fish of the opposite sex, the fry will CARRY the albino gene, but not express it. And if the fish in question is not true albino, who knows?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Red eyes usually are the sure sign of an albino. I've seen some albino bettas  then ther are just white bettas, or white with other color. I'd say wait a month and with good care he/she should sprout awesomely. My "little" ladies did that within a week! doubled in size


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> Red eyes usually are the sure sign of an albino.


Not necessarily, especially with fish and herps. A lot of leucistic fish (gold neons, gold pristellas, chocolate albino plecos) are leucistic but have red eyes. They're not albinos - although they generally look just as cool.  

FWIW, all the leucistic fish I've ever had have been sighted. I had a 15 year old chocolate pleco and then got another just a few months ago, I've had gold pristellas, and my old roomie had gold neons. All those fish could see. Oddly, albino angels are sighted, as are albino tinfoil barbs. 

It just seems to be the bettas that are blind when albino/red eyed. 

Also, my pure white cat... is deaf.

Blind fish. Deaf cats. ALL I WANT ARE SOME PETS THAT WORK RIGHT!!! (I kid, of course. I'd literally die for my kittyboy.)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

hahaha  most bettas I know with red eyes are blind... not all! some. I know blind cave tetras never had a reason to see (hence name!) xD so they are naturally that way. I always wanted a white betta anyways though


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

albino, doesn't always mean blind.

personally, i wouldn't breed a blind, or even partly blind betta. so, if that were my fish, gender wouldn't matter. i'd give it a unisex name, and keep it as a pet.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Luimeril said:


> albino, doesn't always mean blind.
> 
> personally, i wouldn't breed a blind, or even partly blind betta. so, if that were my fish, gender wouldn't matter. i'd give it a unisex name, and keep it as a pet.


I understand what you're saying, but the only reason I'm considering it is because his/her daughters and sons likely wouldn't be albino or blind. Of course any brother/sister or child/parent matings to the albino fish would be, but inbreeding is never a good idea anyway.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

male, yup no doubt male. the body and fins suggest it. watch for fin lengthening.


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

Also lyretail bettas do not exist! Pretty fish.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

http://bettatalk.com/betta_finnage.htm

Scroll to the bottom. Tanaka is also the guy who bred the albino is 1994.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

So, if your bettas tailed was bitten... that really is symmetrical =D


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

that looks more like a betta who was attacked by another.... you can see on the anal fin, another chunk missing. lyre tail isn't a tail type in bettas yet.


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

Sorry, that information is not correct. There are not lyre tail bettas.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

although seeing a lyretail betta pop up would be funny :lol:


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

finney said:


> Not necessarily, especially with fish and herps. A lot of leucistic fish (gold neons, gold pristellas, chocolate albino plecos) are leucistic but have red eyes. They're not albinos - although they generally look just as cool.
> 
> FWIW, all the leucistic fish I've ever had have been sighted. I had a 15 year old chocolate pleco and then got another just a few months ago, I've had gold pristellas, and my old roomie had gold neons. All those fish could see. Oddly, albino angels are sighted, as are albino tinfoil barbs.
> 
> ...


Not all albino bettas are blind, blindness is simply a risk of albino and it is due to genetics. Also, deafness is common in white cats, as is diabetes. In fact, you often see the two together (that doesn't mean you need to worry about your boy it's something I see a lot of)! And I'm in the same situation, all my pets are special, and not necessarily in the good way lol They keep me busy that's for sure!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I knew not all were blind, but a good number were. same like bettas with longer tails tend to bite more - not all do.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I've found my albino guppies aren't as hardy as my other guppies.

I lost the albino male two days after he was shipped to me, and his two females usually just sit on the bottom of their tub. 

Splash, a gene carried in horses is also likely to result deafness depending on how it is phenotypically expressed. It usually only occurs when the white covers the ears.

I find it interesting how some genes are linked like that. Seeing how many problems albinism seems to create unless carefully and selectively bred, I can see why so many don't survive in nature.

Also I find that supposed lyre tail to be a very unappealing fish visually. It looked like some other betta has just taken a piece out of its tail.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hmm cool  Well I noticed many of my marble balloon mollies had a shorter life span and more problems with birth than my regular, or leopard mollies  there's gotta be some kind of genetics in the background of problems lol


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

What about this? Or is that double tail?












DarkMoon17 said:


> Also, deafness is common in white cats, as is diabetes. In fact, you often see the two together (that doesn't mean you need to worry about your boy it's something I see a lot of)!


It's usually the blue eyed whites, but he's hazel eyed and deaf. Never could conform, this one.  He's almost 12 and no sign of diabetes yet, so if it does crop up, it's probably age and not linked with coat color. What my vet DOES see, however, is buttloads of white cats with chronic pancreatitis (which my guy does have... he's gonna be on and off prednisolone for the rest of his life, by the looks of it). Anecdotal evidence, but weird none the less.



LittleBettaFish said:


> I've found my albino guppies aren't as hardy as my other guppies.
> 
> I lost the albino male two days after he was shipped to me, and his two females usually just sit on the bottom of their tub.


Albino angels are the same way. They breed like crap... infrequently (at least in angel terms), have very small clutches, and the fry are very fragile and few survive. The adults are almost always smaller than comparable angels.

My friend bred fancy guppies for a while, and always had problems with the "gold" gene. It started with a pair of tequila sunrise, and he let them free breed and selectively bred from there. Any with the gold body never lived as long and many of the females died giving birth. The ones with the traditional grey bodies were hardy as anything though.


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

That is a double tail veil tail. Like I said about lyre tail bettas - They don't exist!


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

I dunno. I'm inclined to believe Tanaka's fish was, and it was either never bred because the trait wasn't consistent, or because it's not all that attractive.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

This is what a lyretail looks like -

http://goliadfarms.com/pages/products/fish/livebear/mollies/green_lyretail.htm

The fish you posted above is your regular, run-of-the-mill Double tail.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Anyway. About the fish in question. I could almost swear I see an egg spot on him/her when he/she gets full. And there's no sign of fin regrowth. I know it's only been a few days, but when I've had a fish get fin rot or damaged fins, they're visibly regenerating in 24 hours. I guess only time will tell what gender my little mystery is.


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

That's enough yelling and sniping. I removed all the clutter from this thread. Don't make me close it.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Finney you're making a mountain out of a hole  greentea is saying believe what you want... But there isn't lyretail bettas (although that WOULD BE AWESOME! lol) but yeah yours could be a double tail, which I personally think is cool 

So you found the "egg spot" as you call it? I have two bettas with heavy fin (darn auto correct) damage. It will take longer than a couple days for them to heal. However I got a gal whose tail was split by Madame and it healed in under half a week. Must depend on the betta, and the damage? Like I said before wait a month... Or even a couple weeks and you'll be able to tell  males get longer tails usually, and females will usually grow in body more than tail. I've got PK and VT


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> Finney you're making a mountain out of a hole  greentea is saying believe what you want... But there isn't lyretail bettas (although that WOULD BE AWESOME! lol) but yeah yours could be a double tail, which I personally think is cool
> 
> So you found the "egg spot" as you call it? I have two bettas with heavy fun damage. It will take longer than a couple days for them to heal. However I got a gal whose tail was split by Madame and it healed in under half a week. Must depend on the betta, and the damage? Like I said before wait a month... Or even a couple weeks and you'll be able to tell  males get longer tails usually, and females will usually grow in body more than tail. I've got PK and VT


I saw one of this fish's siblings in the store - it was also a partial albino - same light body and red eyes, but one REALLY bright blue swash on it's caudal fin - and it was definitely male. Not much in the way of tail yet, but more than this fishie has. 

I think "egg spot" is what the white spot near a female's anal opening is called, right? That's what I've always heard it referred to as. Does it have another name? 

But anyway, that white spot near the ventral opening that gravid females show is what I'm talking about. It's kind of hard to tell, since the fish is white anyway, and small - and I don't want to stress it out by netting to look closer - but I do think I've seen it.

Yet, I do agree with others that ventral and dorsal fins suggest male. Wouldn't doubt if this little oddity is a hermaphrodite on top of everything else. ;-)


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## BettaGirl290 (Jul 29, 2010)

Can we get back on track of the topic of what gender his fish is, please? o_o


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

BettaGirl290 said:


> Can we get back on track of the topic of what gender his fish is, please? o_o


I'm a lady. 

And see my comment above.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hehe who knows??? Your betta could be a "deformity" causing it to be both sexes xD not common but not unheard of LOL. Well whichever it is, very neat looking


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Its brother was really cool too. Looked just like my fish except with a thinner/longer tail, which had a streak of cobalt blue running through the center of it.

I would LOVE to find the "locally raised" breeder that locally raised these.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Lol that would be cool


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

If you can see a yellowy mass behind the stomach then its a girl.
The yellow mass are the ovaries.
They look like this


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

I'll look for that, thanks. On this fish it should be pretty easy to see if it's there or not. How old does a fish need to be in order to see it?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

From what I learned, bettas mature around 3-5 months? And yours is definitely about that age as they are sold 3-4 months old, or older. All of mine for instance have been between 6-9 months.


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## finney (Oct 16, 2011)

Well, we have a verdict!

Kaspar is:

1. Male and
2. "Only" an occular albino

His dorsal and caudal fins are developing more, identifying him as clearly male, and he's also developing a swatch of VERY bright royal blue right in the middle of his caudal fin, like his brother that I saw in the store. He may not be my OMG ALBINO, but I think he's even more beautiful with the bright blue.


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