# Lethargic betta who seems to only want to lay on the gravel and frighten me!!!



## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Hi there, been reading threads from her for ages, but now I actually have a problem, so I hope someone can help me!!!

I have 2 male crown tail bettas in 5lt hotel tanks.
Both are heated to 25-26°c.
I perform 100% water changes once a week.
They (as all my fish) are fed twice a day, around 4-5.
Ph is 7.0, no spikes ever recorded (i test weekly).

My male who is (i think) ill, is at least 9 months (plus LFS age).
I've noticed in the last week he has become very "lethargic" seems only content to sit in an upright position on the boutin of his tank. Or he actually lays down as if in a sleeping position. Whilst I've read alot of this, nothing seems to match, or be solved by something in already doing...
He also sits atop of his thermometer, just below the water line.
He is eating fine.
Rises the the surface, but just sinks back down.
I haven't noticed or identified any spots, redness, velvety appearance or anything.

He is normaly a very active little man, flaring up showering off and the like... I'm so worried he's suffering... Please help...


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

If you said it is 5 liters. Then it is ammonia poisoning.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

ChoclateBetta said:


> If you said it is 5 liters. Then it is ammonia poisoning.


I doubt it, I'm very careful in checking for spikes... But I'll check


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Is it 5 liters? If so you need more water changes.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes, 5 lt in each. I thought that may have been the case, and I've been doing 25% changes every second day, buy no change.. Should I be changing more than 25%?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I would do 50 percent every other day and a 100 percent weekly. Marimo and filter plants will help.


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## Eggbert (Sep 8, 2012)

Try 27*C. do you have any plants or decor? IMO bettas need 7-8 liters minimum, but that's controversial.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Bettas can live in 1 gallon. But it should only be attempted by ecpeirnced people.


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## Eggbert (Sep 8, 2012)

A Betta can't exercise enough in a gallon. Doesn't matter how experienced you are, a betta will slow down in small capacities like a gallon. He or she can't swim at full speed, and if they try they get a face full of wall. With a gallon you have to make frequent water changes which will stress them out and the fact that they will have to be in immaculate water conditions can lower your bettas immune system making them prone to disease. Some people don't want to hear it but this is the reality of the situation.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

A Betta can Excerise in a one gallon but not all Bettas are strong swimmers. It does matter how excpiernced you are.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Eggbert said:


> A Betta can't exercise enough in a gallon. Doesn't matter how experienced you are, a betta will slow down in small capacities like a gallon. He or she can't swim at full speed, and if they try they get a face full of wall. With a gallon you have to make frequent water changes which will stress them out and the fact that they will have to be in immaculate water conditions can lower your bettas immune system making them prone to disease. Some people don't want to hear it but this is the reality of the situation.


:-D


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## Eggbert (Sep 8, 2012)

Apparently your definition of success is just keeping a fish alive.


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## Eggbert (Sep 8, 2012)

A betta lives in 3 square feet territories in the wild, that's more than 10 gallons. Would you keep a dog in a cage its whole life? Better yet would you keep a person in a room their entire life?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Success is keeping your Betta alive for years and breeding them. Your Betta being active healthy, and colorful which many people do in a 1 gallon. Yes would like to live in a small room all my life.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

People Like OLF have been keeping Bettas 20 years and keep them in 1 gallons. Bettas were taken from the wild 100s of years ago and only live a year in the wild.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Lethargy is a common symptom in several different betta diseases. By the sounds of it, it is probably not ammonia poisoning if you test regularly. Doing an extra 50% water change a week would not hurt, though.
I'm assuming you've looked at the betta fish disease stickies?


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

I don't mean to cause a stir, but I respect every ones opinion. Please do not bicker, I have a sick little man, and this thread was started to get help for my little guy. Fact is, I have had betts for many years, in small tanks and aquariums, and honestly I've never seen them act any differently.
Each to their own, please respect other people and their methods.

I have done a 50% change this morning, and will do again tomorrow.
He hasn't any stress stripes, still eating well, playing and rising to the surface, he's just not his usual self..

I have looked at diffrent pictures, read diffrent threads, jusy nothing that I haven't already done or tried has popped up..


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I have recently read a lot of posts of people whose fish are abnormally lethargic.. Unfortunately sometimes it's very hard to pinpoint what the problem could be when there are no other symptoms, and most of the time they get better with just warm, clean water. It's good that he is eating well and not spending ALL of his time at the bottom, though. There's definitely hope. 

I'd avoid changing the water too often as he might already be stressed (although I don't know why he would be). Personally I'd try another 50% change in another two days, and I'd give him a bit of peace and quiet and maybe keep his tank dark to make him feel a bit more secure.

I agree that tank size can vary and it sounds like you take great care of your fish. A fish in a well kept-up one gallon tank will thrive more than a fish in a ten gallon that's never kept-up.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Thankyou for your advice, I'll leave the 50% change a day or two, see how we go 

It's just like he can't use his tail as normal, like its weighing him down or something, very wierd.. *sigh*


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

A clear picture would help.
Are the fins clamped? any fuzzies on the body?
Swim bladder would cause funny swimming but...they normally act fine..they just swim sideways, upside down, can't swim down, ect.

and yes, bettas can live in a 1 gallon tank IF certain standars are met and according to OFL - you still only need 2 water changes a week for a 1 gallon. They don't have a high bioload. However, bigger is always nice


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

I will try to take picture and upload.

I've just noticed he has a greyish mark across the top of his tail, I'm wondering if this has anything to do with it... Will have a read of threads etc.
My first thought was swim bladder, but he is still upright all the time.
To me, he acts normal, happy etc, then just seems to get tired and sink to the bottom, only to swim upwards again to surface..


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Not good photos sorry, its dark and only taken on my phone


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I am pretty sure I see fin problems.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Poor boy 

Your size tank (which equals to approx 1.3g) is just fine - male bettas don't need that big of a tank, as these long finned are domesticated and not short finned as their wild counterparts are - their territories don't need to be 3ft squared. A 1 gallon is a suitable home for a male betta and there is plenty of room for him to move around in. In fact, a lot of the bigger finned bettas would benefit more from the smaller tanks.

Water can be too clean - why it's recommended 1 50% and 1 100% weekly to give them a good balance of clean water and the bacteria they need for their immune system. Make sure to use full dose of water conditioner when doing the 50%s.

As far as why he is lethargic.. it's hard to say. I would look into all the possibilities such as a bad water conditioner if you just got it (or if it's pretty old), him or a neighboring tank being moved away, low quality food.. it's not the temp, as that is just fine and wouldn't cause lethargy to this extent.. it takes a lot colder water to cause it.
Possibly something got into his water at some point and is causing him to act this way.. but he is still eating which is a good sign. 

When he swims to the surface, does it look like he is having any difficulty? Struggling to stay up once there?

Wish I could be more help, but there isn't any obvious signs in your care that would cause this, nor any other symptom other than his lethargy.. if he is having troubles swimming, I would recommend Epsom Salt - as that is the only thing I feel comfortable giving advice on to help him that would be safe for him right now since we don't know exactly what is going on.

Epsom Salt - found in most pharmacies (human section), dye/fragrance free -
2tsp per gallon with water conditioner (make sure to dissolve it first before placing him in it - hot water helps to dissolve the salts faster, will need to stir continuously), daily 100% water changes adding in the salt/conditioner each time.. could take a week or more to resolve any issues if it has anything to do with his swim bladder (which keeps them upright and swimming normal).

Good luck to you and him


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Thank you myates, you've given me some very helpful information 

I have just purchased some epsom and melafix... Do you think that may help with the fin repair?

In answer to your question, once he rises to the surface, he can't hold himself up there, flaps like crazy for a few seconds, and then just sinks... Like he's over done it or something. The only way he holds himself at the surface is if he sits ontop of his thermometer... 
His food hasn't changed, water conditioner is the same brand I always use and its still fresh.... :-S


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Don't use Melafix. It can damage their labrynth organ and kill them.

It's hard to tell from your photo, but there may be some fungus on the fins.. If you don't want to try a real medication you can try the epsom salt as suggested. It has anti fungal properties and could help if he's got something going on with the swim bladder.

What does the poop look like? Do you feed 5 a day or 5 twice a day? Do you fast once a week?

Keeping bettas healthy in 1 gallons is really difficult and never ideal. You have to be extremely diligent in keeping up with water changes, you have to find a way to heat the bowl properly (either live in a hot climate or dedicate a room to the fish that you can climate control separately), and you have to be really really aware of water chemistry and any potential swings. I've done it. I don't recommend it. I don't think my bettas are ever as happy or healthy and they're not going to live the 6, 7 and 8 years that they potentially can. With something that small they are going to see weekly traces of ammonia, and even small traces of ammonia eventually will wear a fish down. Usually they make it 1-2 years in the bowl. Sometimes 3 and 4. I've never seen more.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

When you say real medication, what exactly do you mean?
whilst I appreciate the feedback on tank size, I am very much aware of the upkeep that is required. This is not my first betta, and certainly not my first tank. His neighbour is 5 years old, and he has lived in his 5.5 lt for the entire time.
Heating is no problem, as previously mentioned the temperature is stable, as is the ammonia levels, I test all my 1-2 times per week, and have never experienced an ammonia spike in any of my betta tanks. 
As for any deseases, I have no signs at all, except for a tiny grey bit on the upper of his tail.. hence why I'm so confused as to what the problem could be :-(


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Real medication= not salt. Melafix would fall under that category. However, anything with 'fix' in it (metafix, bettafix, etc..) has an ingredient in it that damages the labyrinth organ.
May I ask how long the grey on his tail has been there?


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes, I understand real medication not being salt, I thought i was being referred to a medication that worked lol.
I have read about the problems with betta fix, hence why I was asking as I had some melafix from a previous purchase with another tank.
The grey spot has been there probly 3-4 days now. When I say grey, its a lightened colour of what he is now, he's cobalt blue, with a hint of green, purple and red on his outa fins.
How do I work out if its fin rot? There are no obvious signs or stringy white or anything? 

Oops... And previous question, his poop is orangey/brown ish, and he feeds 4-5 pellets twice a day, and I haven't fasted him.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't know if you have read the thread about the mystery disease that causes strange gray discoloration in the fins or not. It generally affects blue bettas. *Your betta doesn't have it*, but it is useful information to have. It spreads rapidly, so that's why I asked how long the grey spot has been there.
For fin rot..


> •Symptoms: Betta’s fins and/or tail seem to be getting shorter and shorter or they seem to be falling apart and dissolving, Black or red along the edge of the betta’s fins/tail, Bloody tips, Behavior may not change.


Quoted from Betta Fish Disease and Treatment part 1 (sticky).

Have you read both of those posts? Lethargy is a common symptom of many things, including stress. The only other thing I saw that had anything to do with grey spots was Columnaris, but it is described as a lesion, so I'm not so sure about that one.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

I have read those threads you mention, but nothing fits.... Not fully anyway.. *sigh* I just wish I knew what I could do to help my little man :-(


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

I have read those threads you mention, but nothing fits.... Not fully anyway.. *sigh* I just wish I knew what I could do to help my litItle man :-(


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Unfortunately sometimes it is hard to figure out whats going on  Aquarium salt is used to treat pretty much any external injuries or problems. I generally wouldn't recommend treatment without knowing what you are treating, but if you ever think that you may lose your fish, I don't see the harm in trying. 

But, only if you're sure its an "either you try and succeed, try and fail, or don't try and fail" type of situation.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

That is very useful, thankyou.. I don't think I'm going to loose him just yet, I just think he's suffering and I hate (as anyone would) not being able to help him :-(
I'm going to try the salts, just hope that can help him sooner rather than later..


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

If anything, the AQ salt will help the injury on his side, and hopefully something else we haven't figured out yet.


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## lp4eva1 (Dec 1, 2012)

Given the first dose of aq salt, fingers crossed!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

IAL is a better treatment option.


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