# Cross Breeding



## Annaimee (Nov 27, 2013)

What would I get if I crossed breed a female veiltail betta and a male halfmoon double tail betta?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Veil tails and single tails are dominant traits. All progeny will be single veil tails. The halfmoon trait will be a needle in the haystack and you might never ever get to see it appear again in future generations.

If you're planning to breed the fish for experience, might not be a bad thing-- but it may prove difficult to find homes for the progeny if space is an issue.


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## DJH (Jan 11, 2014)

Personally I think the first generation will all be veil tails, but they will all be carriers of the half moon trait, so any 2 offspring could be bred to give a spawn of approximately 25% half moons, though these would need further breeding to get the perfect half moon. 
As for the double tail, all offspring should be carriers, with large dorsal fins, crossing any two would give approximately 25% double tails. The difficulty lies in this step, if you are trying to create a DTHM line, breeding two double tails will result in many crippled offspring. Also if you are aiming to get both traits (HM+DT) in the offspring, only about 6% of the second generation will be DTHM, so you will need many large spawns to get a good amount to play with.
What are you hoping to create?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

unfortunately DJH, i dont believe this is the case. if HMs could be derived from crossing HM x VT within two generations, everyone would be doing it. the HM trait is not just derived from a single gene, but a combination of genes and optimal environment working together to create a halfmoon. even a HM x HM cross is not guaranteed to produce HM progeny. D's and SD's would be common, but finding a solid HM in the batch will be more easier said than done. if it is already difficult to create HMs from HM, how much more difficult will it be with a super dominant gene such as the VTs?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Don't get to ahead of yourselves, you can draw out all the punnet squares you like with these fish and the results may still surprise you haha. 

Generally halfmoon x veiltail gets round tail (like a vt without the arch), and possibly some veiltails. Vt is a dominant trait (two rays). Some offspring may have extended dorsal fins from the double tail, and if the veiltail carries the dt gene (rather unlikely, I would say), you could get double tails. Breeding into further generations could get you double tails, veiltails, roundtails, delta, super delta, and even halfmoon if you are committed to working the line. 

Betta genes are confusing and theory often doesn't translate to results in practice.


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## DJH (Jan 11, 2014)

It's ok, I was only trying to highlight the slim chances needed to get _any_ of the desirable traits, obviously this was best case scenario and in reality it will take a hell of a lot of breeding and a good number of generations and outcrossing, and a good deal more time, but I didn't want to put them off because its good to be curious!
I only said there "could" be half moons, and that "these would need further breeding to get the perfect half moon." Believe me you are right it wont be easy, but on the other hand... every variety we have today came from somewhere!
I know many factors contribute to the perfect half moon, but it seems it is only the one dominant gene that contributes to veil tails, so in theory once this is removed in the next generation the half moon trait will not be so severely deconstructed, especially if the father is bred with a daughter. The only reason I have looked into this so much is because it is quite hard around here to get a female half moon of good quality, breeders don't want people to recreate their lines so easy.
Annaimee, MattsBettas sums it up nicely, the genes will be there but what comes out of the mix can be surprising! I think it is safe to say you will never truly know until you try!


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