# fry missing ventral fins help!!!



## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

About two months ago I had my first spawn of betta fry. I successfully raise about 150 of them.. the problem is that 99% of my fry are missing ventral fins 
My question is 
what can I do to have them grow ventral fins? 
What caused them to not have ventral fins?
Could it be that I used to much salt that it burned their ventral fins?
Please help!! I do not want to commit this same mistake twice..


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Out of curiosity, what did you feed them? Was the bottom siphoned consistently? 

The ventrals will most likely not grow, or not grow to their proper size. It could be a husbandry issue, or it could be a genetic issue, with the latter being less likely.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Well I fed them micro worms for the fist week or two after that I fed them BBS there after.. and yes I would siphone the tank every other day religiousl.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Was it proven that microworm feedings (the bacteria build up) was one of the causes of missing ventrals? When I fed MW I cleaned the tank after each feeding (siphoned up the visual nasties). But that is because the MW I found were the most messy little things ever. BBS remains my favorite so far :lol:


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

@Sena hansler 
I wasn't aware that micro worms would damage my fry this much!! His disappointing.... I will stick to BBS from now on thank you


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's alright! Feel free to feed MW. I use it as a "they ate all the BBS that I had hatched" back up xD Especially when they get bigger! Just make sure to use a turkey baster (or something along those lines) to suck up the gunk left behind after they are full. That is the way I made sure to keep ammonia and bacteria down!!


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> That's alright! Feel free to feed MW. I use it as a "they ate all the BBS that I had hatched" back up xD Especially when they get bigger! Just make sure to use a turkey baster (or something along those lines) to suck up the gunk left behind after they are full. That is the way I made sure to keep ammonia and bacteria down!!


Hey thanks a lot! I really appreciate your advice!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

No problem


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes there have been many reports of missing ventrals when using microworms. So I have a theory that I will not back up with any scientific links or anything. A mw culture is not only a great place to grow the nematode its also a dynamic environment for many types of bacteria. 

The bacteria arrives with the mw at the tank bottom right where the tiny developing ventral fins are when the fry eat. The bacteria burns the tiny fin causing it to stop developing. Not every mw culture will develop the bacteria but there is always a chance. Ok its not a theory only a hypothesis.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

logisticsguy said:


> Yes there have been many reports of missing ventrals when using microworms. So I have a theory that I will not back up with any scientific links or anything. A mw culture is not only a great place to grow the nematode its also a dynamic environment for many types of bacteria.
> 
> The bacteria arrives with the mw at the tank bottom right where the tiny developing ventral fins are when the fry eat. The bacteria burns the tiny fin causing it to stop developing. Not every mw culture will develop the bacteria but there is always a chance. Ok its not a theory only a hypothesis.


Do you suggest to stop feeding micro worm? I for some reason thought I had used to much aquriam salt. It seemed as if the salt burned the fins since salt tends to settle at the bottom if the tank. I say this because when I siphon the bottom of my tank I can see the salt cloud rising from the bottom.... maybe that could be a possibility?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's probably why it is a good idea to move your culture often ("seed" another culture with a scoop of the existent one). That's what I did. But then I ended up with like 13 containers of overflowing MW -_-


Why are you using AQ salt?


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Yeah I would stop feeding them myself and set up a bbs hatchery. Its not hard and your fish will grow fine on them. Just don't feed too much at any one time or you can get a swim bladder problem if over used in the 1st month. It could also be too much salt. I use aq salt myself but it should be kept at a very low dose and well dissolved before going in the tank. Do a major vacuum of the bottom and start adding fresh water via a drip is what I would do.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

I don't think it could be bacteria since I did have aquarium salt n it.. I totally doubt that bacteria can live in salt....I am not trying to contradict your hypothesis... 
Maybe there is someone out there who can agree with me.. or not


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> That's probably why it is a good idea to move your culture often ("seed" another culture with a scoop of the existent one). That's what I did. But then I ended up with like 13 containers of overflowing MW -_-
> 
> 
> Why are you using AQ salt?


Well I've read that its good to put a little aquarium salt to it... that's the only resin I use it..


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

logisticsguy said:


> Yeah I would stop feeding them myself and set up a bbs hatchery. Its not hard and your fish will grow fine on them. Just don't feed too much at any one time or you can get a swim bladder problem if over used in the 1st month. It could also be too much salt. I use aq salt myself but it should be kept at a very low dose and well dissolved before going in the tank. Do a major vacuum of the bottom and start adding fresh water via a drip is what I would do.



That's what I'm going to start using from now on... I've had pretty good results with BBS fish tend to grow faster..


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I agree with you actually about the salt. Bacteria will not get very far with a lot of it on the bottom.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

logisticsguy said:


> I agree with you actually about the salt. Bacteria will not get very far with a lot of it on the bottom.


I will try not to add aquarium salt next time I breed and see what type of results I get . Thank you guys! Your advise is much appreciated..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I actually don't use any salt at all for the young ones. But also realize when you add BBS.. Some salt transfers to the tank (unless you rinse them off... I -gasp- don't)

I believe DramaQueen has a ventral-less Betta. Very healthy and happy little fish who swims just fine! So don't fret too much about it  it's a great learning experience! I would rather see missing ventrals than dying fish...

I feed as much BBS as they eat. The young fry (for me) always stopped eating when they were full (until they got older!!). There were spawns that the BBS would be gone in 5 minutes.. Others (huge spawns) gone in seconds. 

Just the joys of breeding!! :lol:


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> I actually don't use any salt at all for the young ones. But also realize when you add BBS.. Some salt transfers to the tank (unless you rinse them off... I -gasp- don't)
> 
> I believe DramaQueen has a ventral-less Betta. Very healthy and happy little fish who swims just fine! So don't fret too much about it  it's a great learning experience! I would rather see missing ventrals than dying fish...
> 
> ...



Aaaaaaah! I'm guessing you have no problem with missing ventral fins right? 
This might help prove my theory of salt being the cause of missing ventral fins rather than MW.... 
But then again I could be wrong


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hers was from a spawn fed MW if I am not mistaken.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> Hers was from a spawn fed MW if I am not mistaken.


Are you talking about the little fish on your profile?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

No! The girl in my avatar did have ventrals (terrible picture, but was the one I got before she passed away from columnaris that she had when at the fish store...)

I may be able to pull up a picture for you.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Liesl, the ventral-less female betta


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> Liesl, the ventral-less female betta


Yeah she looks very normal to me.. The only problem is the males... They look weird without their ventral a lol..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Haha I agree! But at least it is harmless  even if they look "odd"


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## DBanana (Nov 20, 2013)

I've got dirt granules (Fluval) on the bottom of my fry tank. Keeps you from suctioning up the bottom but it has scuds in it. Scuds eat the left over food as well and provide general cleanup. I haven't fed microworms but with that on the bottom I am not too worried about ventrals getting burned off by either bad worms or bad bacteria (famous last words no doubt).


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

DBanana said:


> I've got dirt granules (Fluval) on the bottom of my fry tank. Keeps you from suctioning up the bottom but it has scuds in it. Scuds eat the left over food as well and provide general cleanup. I haven't fed microworms but with that on the bottom I am not too worried about ventrals getting burned off by either bad worms or bad bacteria (famous last words no doubt).


I have no Idea what that is... I did google (dirt granules) and I believe its some type of sand?? Maybe you can show me a picture? It sound interesting your set up....


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## DBanana (Nov 20, 2013)

http://thereefshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2167 

This stuff. It's light as all get out; I've seen itty bitty fry push grains aside. Scuds were unintentional addition to the tank, probably on the plants, but they've really thrived and they haven't touched the fry. I can't breed in the fry tank, but that's not a problem (buckets!) so having a lot of plants, the sponge filter and the scuds on the bottom have all turned into a tank of good fortune for the fry (especially since the scuds eat detritus and bacterial films)


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

DBanana said:


> http://thereefshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2167
> 
> This stuff. It's light as all get out; I've seen itty bitty fry push grains aside. Scuds were unintentional addition to the tank, probably on the plants, but they've really thrived and they haven't touched the fry. I can't breed in the fry tank, but that's not a problem (buckets!) so having a lot of plants, the sponge filter and the scuds on the bottom have all turned into a tank of good fortune for the fry (especially since the scuds eat detritus and bacterial films)


Wow thanks for showing me this... so in other words the tank that have the fluval gravel or substrate is just a grow out tank?


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## DBanana (Nov 20, 2013)

It's a 10g. I did spawn in there originally but added the substrate after (so I would need to put IAL or spawn in buckets) because I was worried about ventrals/snail poop. If you did put IAL down you'd have to hope the male built his nest over it (maybe try to make sure all the stuff he'd attach his nest to is over the sunken IAL?) I've treated it as a fry tank with a 20g that I use as a proper grow out once they reach a good size. I guess it's a mini-grow out? I'm hoping to spawn in it again but I'd have to figure out the whole substrate issue.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

eli82 said:


> I don't think it could be bacteria since I did have aquarium salt n it.. I totally doubt that bacteria can live in salt....I am not trying to contradict your hypothesis...
> Maybe there is someone out there who can agree with me.. or not


im sorry, but im gonna be one of those people to not agree. i believe you are underestimating the resiliency of bacteria and their ability to adapt. think hydrothermal sulfuric vents, or geothermal ponds (yellowstone), extreme conditions where no life should be found--but guess what lives there? you guessed it, bacteria. 

bacteria have a very unique way of hacking their genetic code; it's called horizontal gene transfer. one bacteria cant grow in salt water, another can--it doesnt matter if they are different species of bacteria or bacterial type. all they have to do is touch each other, and swap code, then both can live in salt water. this is particularly why it is so dangerous to half-you-know-what, antibiotics because you can create super strains of bacteria that gain immunity over time.

if bacteria are capable of surviving under 8000 ft of water (that's 1181.01 pounds per square inch), and temps of 750*F, eat sulphur and arsenic for breakfast, surviving at the bottom of your tank should be a piece of cake.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

amphirion said:


> im sorry, but im gonna be one of those people to not agree. i believe you are underestimating the resiliency of bacteria and their ability to adapt. think hydrothermal sulfuric vents, or geothermal ponds (yellowstone), extreme conditions where no life should be found--but guess what lives there? you guessed it, bacteria.
> 
> bacteria have a very unique way of hacking their genetic code; it's called horizontal gene transfer. one bacteria cant grow in salt water, another can--it doesnt matter if they are different species of bacteria or bacterial type. all they have to do is touch each other, and swap code, then both can live in salt water. this is particularly why it is so dangerous to half-you-know-what, antibiotics because you can create super strains of bacteria that gain immunity over time.
> 
> if bacteria are capable of surviving under 8000 ft of water (that's 1181.01 pounds per square inch), and temps of 750*F, eat sulphur and arsenic for breakfast, surviving at the bottom of your tank should be a piece of cake.


Yeah that makes a lot of sense!
I guess the best thing to do is have a clean tank no matter what! It was just an opinion of mine not that it has been proven.. I do believe that salt can be a big factor as well since salt can burn..


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

There is a possibility of utilizing antibiotics...theoretically should work as most people do not cycle breeding tanks so beneficial bacteria won't be killed when utilized. Would only have to use it for the first week or so (complete treatment of course). I might try this out with my next spawn. Will report results.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I would not use any antibiotics in a spawn tank myself unless there was no other option. They kill bad bacteria yes but can also do a number on the good bacterial flora which is critical for the natural immune system development of the fry. The OP will be fine with a good vacuum and some fresh water imo as I don't think the situation is serious enough to warrant antibiotics at this point.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

amphirion said:


> There is a possibility of utilizing antibiotics...theoretically should work as most people do not cycle breeding tanks so beneficial bacteria won't be killed when utilized. Would only have to use it for the first week or so (complete treatment of course). I might try this out with my next spawn. Will report results.


Yes most definitely keep me psoted .. I would be very interested in knowing your results,
And you are very right about bacteria being able to survive in salt I just googled it, and there is a lot of articles related to that... I currently have two spawns they should be born tomorrow. This time I will not use salt in there tanks just to see if my theory is right... I will keep you posted on my results.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know it was said you should cycle breeding tanks... But it's so unstable. I find cleaning daily (even more than once) works just fine. It is just time consuming


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> I know it was said you should cycle breeding tanks... But it's so unstable. I find cleaning daily (even more than once) works just fine. It is just time consuming


I agree with you I think keeping a clean tank is key...


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

logisticsguy said:


> I would not use any antibiotics in a spawn tank myself unless there was no other option. They kill bad bacteria yes but can also do a number on the good bacterial flora which is critical for the natural immune system development of the fry. The OP will be fine with a good vacuum and some fresh water imo as I don't think the situation is serious enough to warrant antibiotics at this point.


does make sense, but would you happen to have a paper that supports this claim?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

To each their own  

Personally, find what works for you. What works for LG may not work for you. What I do probably won't work for you. What works for amphirion may not work for you.


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## DBanana (Nov 20, 2013)

I like my cycled fry tank with substrate...might just try feeding MW to a batch of test fry in it to see what happens (I don't clean the bottom of mine at all, though I do change 50% of the water daily).


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

DBanana said:


> I like my cycled fry tank with substrate...might just try feeding MW to a batch of test fry in it to see what happens (I don't clean the bottom of mine at all, though I do change 50% of the water daily).[/QUOTE
> 
> That's what I'm going to do buy some substrate that way their bellies dont scrape the bottom of the tank..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

oooh! Forgot:

I found that feeding live foods and having live plants... = more live foods you don't even have to culture. I ended up with daphnia for a few days, so I didn't bother feeding the fry until I saw limited numbers of daphnia :lol: Live plants help a lot!


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sena Hansler said:


> oooh! Forgot:
> 
> I found that feeding live foods and having live plants... = more live foods you don't even have to culture. I ended up with daphnia for a few days, so I didn't bother feeding the fry until I saw limited numbers of daphnia :lol: Live plants help a lot!


Can you explain how you came up with that? Like in full detail please if its OK with you. Sounds very intetesting


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

In one of my fry tanks that I had java moss, java fern, Hornwort, and anubias in... Along with IAL leaves... I started to see daphnia - little quick darting "bugs" everywhere. I asked about it and I was told they ate left over foods, usually they came from plants, and were A great fry food.

I've tried to make infusoria too and only got daphnia!!

I seem to make infusoria and daphnia accidentally... But never if I actually tried. So I guess I do not really have a theory!!


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

Hey Guys so I have to report that I spawned about a month and a half ago and I believe my theory of (using salt can burn ventral fins) is right..
For this spawn I used micro worms for 2 weeks and there after I fed BBS.
When I spawned I did not use salt at all!! I would syphone every other day religiously..
Now all my spawn has ventral fins!!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

eli82 said:


> Hey Guys so I have to report that I spawned about a month and a half ago and I believe my theory of (*using salt can burn ventral fins*) is right..
> For this spawn I used micro worms for 2 weeks and there after I fed BBS.
> When I spawned I did not use salt at all!! I would syphone every other day religiously..
> Now all my spawn has ventral fins!!


Thank you for sharing this info. Perhaps others who has used similar methods could share their experiences.

BTW, why use salt for healthy fry? isn't salt bad for bettas in the long run? 
Nowadays I use salt only as a first aid med when they show problems.


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## eli82 (Nov 10, 2013)

indjo said:


> Thank you for sharing this info. Perhaps others who has used similar methods could share their experiences.
> 
> BTW, why use salt for healthy fry? isn't salt bad for bettas in the long run?
> Nowadays I use salt only as a first aid med when they show problems.


Your welcome.. I was using salt for various reasons indjo.. I am not an experience breeder like I'm sure you and many others are, but I was using it because I read iin a lot of post that when breeding I should add salt to the tank. Little did I know that it truly isn't necessary to use salt at all in a breeding tank. 

You are completely right when you say " why use salt for heathy fry?" Fry don't need salt at all. 

Ignorance!! :roll:


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

No, not ignorance. Misinformation, perhaps.

I made the same mistake, for adults though. LFS told me to add salt when water changing. I realized that these never lived long (about 1 yr or less) compared to those without salt (2-3yr). . . . Then again I seldom if ever can keep a bought betta alive for more then 1.5 yrs. And when I joined this forum, I confirmed why. . . . too much salt for too long. . . . its all learning process.


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## nakito (Oct 11, 2014)

is it possible that it is not the bacteria from rotting microworm but the parasites in microworm (like in the case f serveral life food) that caused the missing/tiny ventrals? there are serveral accounts that ventrals are missing due to microworm feeding but other microworm fed spawn did not have such problems, is it possible that the affected spawns were fed with cultures that contain parasites whih ended up in the missing ventrals?


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I quit using microworms when I saw how many other breeders had missing ventral fins from them. They rot and produce a nasty bacteria that destroys the developing ventrals while fry feed off the bottom. I use salt in all my spawn tubs and have never had missing ventrals so I doubt is was salt unless used at an extremely high level. Using 1 tablespoon aq salt per 5 gallons prevents velvet which is an very common disease in fry tubs.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Hello nakito, 
please don't revive old threads. If you wish to talk about similar topics, feel free to start a new thread. You may link old threads as reference or to continue the said discussion.


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