# Cichlids?



## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

So I have a 29 gallon tank that I may be looking to stock, and I'm thinking of looking into cichlids. My water is well water run through a water softener, so anything that requires hard water is out.

I used to have albino kribs, which I liked. I'm thinking I may want to do kribs again. Or maybe a pair of jewels? But I'm open to other suggestions.

I don't think I want any kind of rams. From what I've read, they're super sensitive and require someone with a bit more experience in order to do well. I'm also not a huge fan of convicts. 

I'm find with having the cichlids as the only fish in the tank. I'm also not opposed to introducing a school of some sort of dither fish if that's best for whatever I settle on.

Any suggestions?

Also, in terms of decor: I kill live plants. All of them. I'm no good at keeping them. So I have some fake plants, a bunch of rocks, a cave, and some other hiding places. I also have some mopani driftwood, but it would have to be boiled and left to sit for a while to stop it from releasing too many tannins, as it's thus far never been in water.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Jewels are too aggressive will grow too large for 29 gallon. You might want to consider their smaller, more peaceful cousins African Butterfly cichlids. I keep one with a buffalo head cichlid in my 29 gallon. You might be able to get away with as many as 4 in a 29.

As far as rams go, Bolivian Rams are more hearty and just as interesting as a German Blue Rams. I keep 2 males in a 40 breeder and they are doing great.

I also keep an albino krib with the rams and everyone gets along fine.

I use mopani wood with anubias attached to it. It's a nice, easy low light plant that will work out nicely for you. For West African & South American cichlids, tannins are actually a good thing and will be appreciated.

If you'd like to see all the fish I mentioned in action check out my journal,
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=532842


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Really? Last time I was stocking this size tank several people told me that jewels would be fine. I actually almost bought some, but then saw the kribs and changed my mind last minute. One of the things I really liked about the kribs was watching the spawning behavior. Will the african butterfly fish or rams spawn?


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

AngesRadieux said:


> Really? Last time I was stocking this size tank several people told me that jewels would be fine.


Absolutely. They grown to about 6 inches and are nastier than convicts, especially when they spawn.

Both the rams & butterflies are easy to spawn in most water conditions. The problem is they are really hard to sex. It would be best to buy 5 and let them naturally pair off and re-home the remaining fish.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for all the info! Turns out kribs were the best option.
My LFS didn't stock the butterflies, so they were out. They had Bolivian Rams, but I had a few issues with those. My biggest issue was that my LFS had a big sign on the tank that they no longer guarantee Rams due to their sensitive nature. On the one hand, it's fair, especially with some of the more difficult to keep species. On the other, it didn't really inspire confidence, and I couldn't help but be a little suspicious, because if the fish died because something was wrong with their stock, I'd just be out the money.

The kribs are a bit small, but the females had some nice, bright colors in their tank. The guy was very patient with me while I was staring and sexing them, and when I pointed out males and females he confirmed my judgment, plus he helped me sex one that I couldn't get a good look at because it wouldn't come out of the corner. I was a bit disappointed that there were no albinos, but he said they haven't gotten albinos in in years, so I figured there was no point in trying to wait for a shipment. Since albino is dominant in kribs, if the only thing the supplier's producing is regular, I figured they must only be breeding the normal colors.

Edit: Dang those things can hide! Stupid male gave me a heart-attack! I had a little trouble getting him out of the bag, and then after I put him in the tank I couldn't find the little sucker for the life of me! I jostled things, shone a flashlight in the little cave, looked in the filter, etc. I would have _sworn_ there was just the female in that tank. But then to be sure I dropped some food in for them, and out he swam from some rocks.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

You may want to ask where your LFS gets their rams from. I was worried about the same thing when I bought my German Blue Ram, but most are saying the ones that are very sensitive are ones from overseas fish farms that are injecting them with hormones for brighter coloration at an earlier age.

I bought my GBR off ebay from a breeder in Florida and he's doing great so far. People on a different forum told me that if they make it past the first month, you're usually good to go. I'd say he was worth the pricetag because I have much more confidence in his survival long term and that he comes from a good breeding line. There are some good deals on some GBRs from Florida right now as well on Aquabid. The only reason I didn't go for those was because I wasn't sure if I wanted 3-7 of them(most listings are for multiple fish)

From what I was reading on other forums, most of the Florida ram breeders have reliable stock. 

As for the sensitivity...mine seems hardy. I wouldn't call myself at all experienced. I've only been keeping bettas for about a year, then got my first ram last month. He's already gone through a very slight nitrite and nitrate problem with me, and a power outage. And he's still in great health.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

That's good to know, but the fact that they refuse to guarantee the Rams specifically makes me suspect that a lot of people were having problems. I'd rather just stick with what I can get locally and not order fish. I was tempted by some albino kribs on aquabid, but the wild type are fine. The spawns just won't be quite as much fun because they're both only carry the recessive gene so there won't be variation. The spawning behaviors will still be fun to watch.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

You made a really good choice with the Kribs. It's a shame you don't live in the Philly area. A LFS near me just got some albino Kribs in recently. They are all juveniles but I don't think you would have much trouble sexing them. One of the little guys has a deformed face. I wish I could take him home. They had some interesting wild colored ones. There was a male with red fins and another with yellow orange. Really nice looking fish. 

I think the guy at the fish store was misinformed about the Bolivian Rams. They are very hardy and don't suffer the same problems as the GBR & morphs. What you really need to beware of is the giant Blue Rams coming out of asia. I've only seen them one time in a LFS and half of them were dead. Reccka's right, if you are looking for Rams go through a breeder or try to make sure they come from the US. The ones that are imported from Indonesia are of very weak stock.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Aw! I'm I think three or four hours from Philly. Not impossible, but a trip would eat up pretty much the whole day, which is kind of tough since I work most afternoons. Maybe eventually I'll see them somewhere. 

I don't think the store was incredibly well informed about Rams. The tank with the Bolivian Rams only had a label for Gold Balloon Rams on it--in fact, I didn't see a price for Bolivian Rams anywhere. But while there were some Gold Balloon Rams in the tank, there were also definitely Bolivian Rams. 

In general, I was a bit disappointed with my trip. On the one hand, one employee was super nice. I also bought a new light bulb for the hood. The bag wasn't quite long enough, and while I was trying to juggle some stuff the box with the bulb fell out of the bag and of course the bulb just had to shatter. I got on line to buy a new one, but the guy waved me on and told me not to worry about it. So their customer service was way above and beyond. But they used to have really knowledgeable staff, like I could go and they'd answer all my questions if I was stuck deciding between two types of fish. This time? I heard someone talking to an employee about stocking a 10 gallon tank, and he sold them a betta, a bala shark, a Pleco, and a single neon tetra and said they'd all be fine together.

But their female Kribs were active and bright. The males were a bit dull and lackluster, but I'm hoping since they're just juveniles I'll see some nicer colors as they grow. Plus they're both still not quite used to the new tank, so I'm hoping both of them will brighten up a bit once they've had some time to settle in.

Any suggestions for dither fish? I'm going to wait a little while to get them, because I just added the Kribs and I don't want to overwhelm the tank by adding a bunch of other new fish right away.

Also, just out of curiosity, do you know anything about Turquoise Jewel Cichlids? I saw some at the LFS that were gorgeous, but I wasn't sure if it was just some sort of mutation or recessive gene manifesting in regular Jewels or if they were some kind of hybrid. Google wasn't particularly informative when I tried looking them up, so I wondered if you guys would know.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Turquoise Jewel's are just a color variant of the standard _Hemichromis bimaculatus_. You can get them in blue or red also. They are stunning but like nearly all Jewels they need to be kept in a species only tank or with big armored cats that can take a beating.

For the Kribs, nearly any South American schooling species of tetras will work, they share the same water parameters. My Krib doesn't really bother the Rummynoses & Black Phantoms he's in the tank with. He'll chase them away from food but that's about it. If you are into doing a biotope you are out of luck when it comes to tetras. Hardly any of the African tetras will work in your tank, they get way too big. Killifish like Lampeyes would work out well.

But remember, everything will go out the window if a pair forms and they decide to spawn. So have a back up plan.

Give the juveniles some time, feed them good food and the colors will come out. I recommend feeding Omega One color micro pellets.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

The black phantom tetras look interesting. Killifish are nice, but I don't think I saw any at my LFS. I could check again when I go back, but they didn't have an especially large selection of small, schooling species. I'll probably look for Killifish first, but I don't care too much about having only African fish in the tank, so if I can't find those I'll probably look for the black phantom tetras next. I'm hoping that once I add them the Kribs will be a little less shy.

If there are any major issues with aggression, I do have two empty ten gallon tanks that I can use to separate any fish that are getting beat up on.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

The tetras should be speedy enough to stay out of trouble should the kribs get territorial when protecting a cave, so you should be OK.

Black or Red Phantoms would work well and are very interesting to watch. They just don't swim around aimlessly like most tetras. They put on some really cool displays and mating rituals. They will circle each other for hours with sideways swimming and flared fins.

They will be a little nippy at first but will settle down when a pecking order is established. Any damage to the fins from the nipping will repair itself at an amazing rate. You can keep them in smaller groups if you'd like with a ratio of one male to 3 females. They are really easy to sex. The females will have red in their ventral & anal fins where the males don't. The males are also a little larger and darker in color. They have a larger dorsal fin that they extend like a sail when they display.

Here is a picture of a male & female together. Sorry for the quality, they are in constant motion and very difficult to photograph.









The female is on the left and the male is on the right. You can clearly see the color difference in the fins and the way the male's dorsal hooks and droops when at rest.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

They sound like cool fish. I hope I can find them! I saw some pictures of absolutely gorgeous Killifish, but I'm fairly sure I won't be able to find them. Just for fun, I looked around on Aquabid, and there were some that had me very tempted to try ordering. Except they were a bit pricey, especially combined with shipping. Plus one of the breeders with the most fish for sale was in the UK, and I'm not super willing to trust ordering fish from elsewhere in the US, never mind out of the country. 

The black phantom tetras do seem easy enough to sex, so I should do fine making sure I get a good ratio of male to female.

According to AqAdvisor, a school of eight would work in my tank, but I know AqAdvisor isn't always the most accurate. Do you think two males and six females would work, or will that be too many? If the store has both red and black phantoms, will red and black phantom tetras school together, or will having half red and half black instead of all one or the other cause problems?


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

I think 8 would be fine. Black Phantoms don't really school together, it's more like a loose grouping. Only rarely will I see them swim around together in a school like a rummynose or a cardinal. They usually will space themselves around the tank and and more than often two or three will join together and display by swimming circles and bumping into each other. It can be females or males, they are always pushing each other to see who is the most dominant. The males will chase the females in a constant desire to spawn. The eggs never reach the substrate in my tank, the other tetras gobble them right up. That's why I recommend a 3-1 male to female ratio, the girls need a break now and then. 

Some Phantoms will stick by themselves but they always keep in sight of each other. Red Phantoms are supposed to be the same fish, so I would expect the same behavior and I think they would be fine together. 

The Black Phantoms should be real easy to find if you are patient, the reds don't show up as often.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for answering all my questions!

I guess if I can find both, I'll get one male and three females of each. If not, I'll get just black phantoms and get two males and six females so no one female is to harassed when the males get frisky. If I can find red phantoms, I'm assuming they're also fairly easy to sex if you know what to look for?

Edit: Welp, I may not be able to be all that patient in my search for Black Phantoms. My male, who was actually quite timid when I first introduced him to the tank, is being a massive butt head and I think I don't want to wait too long before adding something to distract him. For now, I've added some extra decor so there are more hiding places for the female and when I go to the store next I may also look for some Hornwort to offer some extra cover. If anything, I thought the female would be the more dominant of the two.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Try some caves to stem aggression. PVC pipe will be fine, try to get a darker color. Terracotta pots with holes in them work well too.

You're right, it's usually the females that beat on the males.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

I did put some more caves in. But he's such a jerk face! I've offered them plenty of food. There's definitely no shortage of stuff for them. But he's wickedly possessive of food. Like, he could be hiding in a cave, completely ignoring food, not even thinking about eating. But then he sticks his head out and sees the female eating, and he has to beat her away from the food.

The extra hiding spots seem to have helped a little bit--she's getting away from him faster. Earlier when I made sure some NLS sinking pellets fell right in front of her, she pounced on them, probably because the male was chasing her away from everything. But this totally isn't how I saw this playing out. I figured the female would beat on the male for a while, but he'd be able to handle it without too much stress because he has the size advantage.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

That's cichlids for you, anything but predictable. Some tetras may be the answer if he's _ that_ aggressive about food. Black Phantoms will feed right from the surface and will swarm the pellets before they halfway to the bottom. The female krib will be the least of his worries. You might even have to go the feeding tube route to get enough food to the kribs, I do this with my rams.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=590474

You don't need dither fish, you need target fish.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Will the Black Phantoms work as target fish? It sounds like they should if they'll provide competition for food. It's just especially irritating because there's so much just going to waste. Like it would still be frustrating if he was a hoover and just sucked up anything I put in the tank, but at least then the food would be getting eaten instead of just sitting there until it needs to be vacuumed out.

I can do a feeding tube. Plus, the shrimp pellets are I think a bit too big for the Tetras to get their mouths around, but they soften up a bit after being in the water, so when they hit the bottom they've begun breaking down and the Kribs can pick them to pieces. I should be able to accommodate everyone, so long as my male stops deciding that everything in the tank--even the stuff he doesn't really want at the moment--belongs to him and he doesn't have to share.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Yes, I believe they will. My cichlids seem to be annoyed by them and are constantly taking shots at them. But I keep them with Bolivian Rams, they are way too slow and their mouths are in the wrong place to do any damage.

A word of warning about the Phantoms, you'd be surprised at what they can fit in their mouths. A shrimp pellet is not entirely out of the question.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for the warning! I didn't realize that their mouths were so large. I'll definitely keep an eye on things with the tetras to make sure some food hits the bottom of the tank for the Kribs. If they really are that fast, that should work well! Once I get them in the tank, he'll have a much bigger problem to deal with than my female!

I still can't believe what a butt head he is, though! Not at all like the albino kribs I had last time--there was some chasing, but nothing too bad and nine out of ten times it was male looking hassled and the female doing the chasing. It's funny how different individual fish can be.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

It's not that their mouths are overly large, they will just grab and carry around a pellet until it softens up and they can eat it. It kinda looks like a dog with a football in it's mouth. Sometimes they get tired and spit it out, but there is always another one to grab it. It's like they are playing "keep away" from the rams.

They also will steal food right out of a cichlids mouth. This is part of the reason why I do territorial feedings in terracotta pot with my rams.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

I'll definitely keep an eye on it when I add them to the tank. If I see they're not letting anything reach the Kribs, I'll try a feeding tube and see how that works. If a tube is necessary, I'll probably use two for now so the male and female can be fed in different parts of the tank. That way I don't have to worry about the male chasing off the female and stealing everything.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

See how it works out for you. My albino krib gets right in there and mixes in up with the tetras at feeding time. On occasion he will come right to the surface and feed with the Phantoms.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for all the info! I just got some Black Phantoms plus I got even more caves to add to the tank. I only got six--two males and four females, since that's what they had for now. In a few days they'll have a new shipment of fish, so hopefully they'll get some more females in and I can add two more.

But my female Krib has already started to brighten up, so I think a combination of the additional fish and a huge surplus of hiding places for her is making her feel a bit more secure.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Cool! Ride it out with the Black Phantoms at 6, you should be fine as long as there are more females. You will notice that they are the nippiest and the males just hang back and watch. They won't nip the kribs, so don't worry. Soon as they work things out between themselves, they'll knock it off. I started with eight and lost a female in quarantine. About 1 1/2 months later I lost a male. I'm down to six now with 5 females and one happy male and it's been working out fine.

You might want to consider adding some Tetra SafeStart or Seachem Stability to your filter. Adding eight fish, all of which are going to be good eaters might impact your cycle. The SafeStart will give it a boost and hopefully you won't miss a beat.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

I did use Tetra SafeStart. I put some in before adding the Kribs, and then some more before adding the Black Phantoms, because I was afraid of overloading the tank. No one seems to be in too much distress. My female Krib still hides and seems a bit uneasy, but she's definitely getting a little bolder. Hopefully things between her and the male will calm down a bit now. I haven't noticed all that much nipping among the Tetras so far.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Sounds good. The tetras will darken up quite a bit after they settle in. Try to post some pictures if you get a chance.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

Cool! I look forward to seeing their colors start to stand out. I'm also very impatient for the Kribs' colors to really start showing. So far the male's still kind of dull, though a bit of purple's starting to come into his ventrals. No red on either of them yet. But they're pretty small still, so I think I'll have to wait for them to mature a bit. xD

I'll get some pictures if I can. The Black Phantoms are all sticking pretty close together for now, so it shouldn't be too hard to get some shots of them. The Kribs still like to hide, so it may take some more patience to get any good pictures of them.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

This tank is turning into a disaster. I've lost a male Black Phantom Tetra, it looks like due to swim bladder issues. He was the most ragged looking of the ones I got from the store, so I'm half suspicious that there was already an issue. But it's still frustrating.

And my male Krib is still harassing the female. Her fins look awful. I don't get it. There are seven caves in the tank. The floor of the tank is pretty much completely covered in caves, plus there are other rocks that I know they're capable of digging under to create a cave. But somehow, she can't seem to find a single suitable hiding spot. I guess I'm probably going to end up buying a bunch of plants and see if those help. But I've already spent a significant amount of money on new caves to stick in, so I'm not exactly thrilled by how ineffective they are.

This is turning into a massive headache.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Don't be discouraged. It's not uncommon to lose a fish after within 24 hours of bringing it home, especially since it had just arrived in the store. He probably already had an issue. I lost 3 newly purchased rummynoses in 36 hours in my quarantine tank and another a few days later. Some Tetras can be on the delicate side especially if the store just got them in. It can be asking a lot of a little fish to be acclimated to different water parameters in a short period of time after a trip from a fish farm in Florida or as far away as Indonesia. If they make it past the 48 hour mark they usually will be OK.

Be patient with the kribs. Try to rearrange the tank to throw the male off. If nothing seems to work is there a possibly of taking him back to the store? You might need to get more females to form a bonded pair and remove the ones that don't make the cut, which I admit can be a problem. With cichlids simply buying a male and a female will rarely guarantee you a pair, believe me I've been there.

In the end it might be best to keep one krib as your centerpiece and build a nice community tank around him or her.


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## AngesRadieux (Oct 6, 2011)

I know it happens, and he didn't look bad, exactly, but he was definitely the weakest one out of the fish I bought. And he wasn't sticking as closely to the group as the others were. So there probably was just something wrong with him at the store, but it's just frustrating.

I didn't have time to do much anything with the tank other than feed the fish today, but tomorrow if I get a chance I'm probably going to try to get some Hornswort or some other fast growing, hard to kill plant that the female can hide in. If I can get some stuff, I'll add it and rearrange some of the other stuff in the tank. Maybe I'll pull both Kribs out while I'm working on the tank and then only put the female back in when I'm done, give her an hour or so to explore and stake out some territory, and then reintroduce the male. Hopefully if he's the last fish into a "new" tank he'll back off. While I'm at the store, I'll probably ask if they'll take the fish back if I can't get this sorted out.

I'd rather not do a tank with a single Krib. At that point, it may sound awful but I'd probably try to rehome the fish and then look into a different species. With the Kribs, it's really the spawning behavior and the interactions between a pair that I find interesting.

Edit: I did go and get Hornwort. I wanted to get some new caves, but they didn't have much to choose from. I removed the male and completely rearranged the tank. Maybe I'll stop somewhere else and pick up some more caves later. She seems more secure right now without the male. I also did pick up another female in hopes that the male will decide not to hate at least one of them. In terms of taking a fish back if this doesn't work, the guy I spoke to today said that if it came down to having to get rid of a fish, he'd do it for me. 

Right now, both females are in the tank. No major aggression, and the original female seems to be behaving a bit more assertively without the male. I'll reintroduce him in a little bit, shut the lights off, and see how things go. Maybe more hiding spots plus being the last fish in will calm him down a bit.


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