# Should I let the male cull fry?



## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I want to leave the male with the fry after they've hatched so he would do culling instead of me, since I want to have only a few bettas to keep. It seems more natural to me than to remove the male and cull the fry myself. 

Will he leave a couple of newborns to reach maturity?

Thanks!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

A lot of breeders leave the male in with the fry for a long time, and use the male to cull - the male will know which ones are deformed as well as weak. He can cull better than any breeder 

So leave him in and let him do his thing..

BUT do watch him and make sure he isn't eating the babies because he doesn't know better (a lot of first time fathers don't know exactly what to do), or he doesn't care and ends up eating the babies willy nilly.. make sure he isn't just chomping on them, but actually only culling what needs to be culled.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It's really iffy. Might work, might not. And you really shouldn't be breeding for a couple fish.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Natural egg/fry eaters will devour all of the egg/fry. On the other hand, good daddies will nurture fry until adult. If you leave the first type of male in with fry, you won't have any left. But if you have the second type, you will end up with lots of fry. . . . you need to know your male, which can only be known through experience.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks, Myates!

And, MattsBettas, you're the same guy who said that VT's shouldn't be bred because of bad finnage. (?!) I didn't get your answer about that on the other thread... Anyway, I do not want to "produce high quality bettas". I want them to mate, let the male do the culling and keep a couple of them. The rest, I will donate to a local pet shop. So, actually, I want to breed them and keep a couple, I don't plan on culling any by myself.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

indjo said:


> Natural egg/fry eaters will devour all of the egg/fry. On the other hand, good daddies will nurture fry until adult. If you leave the first type of male in with fry, you won't have any left. But if you have the second type, you will end up with lots of fry. . . . you need to know your male, which can only be known through experience.


Thanks for replying!

I can't imagine him leaving none of the fry to live. You are right, I don't know how he will act but if he is a very bad daddy I will remove him from the fry.

A month ago, my female layed around 100 eggs on her own and made a little bubble nest in which she kept them. She ate them all in two days but maybe she wouldn't if they were fertilized. I think she would be a good mommy since she made a bubble nest on her own.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

She most likely won't eat the eggs because 99.9% of the time the male will force the female away from the nest.. sometimes to the point of wanting to kill them. So always remove the female as soon as you see they are done spawning (which could take a coupe hours).

It's scary when you are using an unknown male - my latest batch, the male was brand new to breeding.. eager though as it only took the pair a couple of hours before they started breeding. And he ended up being an EXCELLENT daddy.. his next spawn he will be with the babies until they are moved into the grow out tanks. 

But you never know... if they are good, they will cull the weak/deformed. You just have to watch him to see.. see what he does when they are free swimming. And watch the whole time in case he changes his mind on whether or not they start looking yummy to him. 

When they are free swimming you should be able to attempt to feed the father.. he may or may not eat at that time, but keep offering (remove any uneaten food right away), as you want him to eat the food and not the fry because he is starving.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Yea I did say that. Their finnage is very undesirable. Why don't you breed some high quality fish? It takes the same amount of time and money.


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Yea I did say that. Their finnage is very undesirable. Why don't you breed some high quality fish? It takes the same amount of time and money.


There is nothing wrong with veiltails, there are even some breeders (myself included) who are making plans to work with them and even possibly get them back into the shows!


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

Mattsbettas, veiltails are not "undesireable," it's your PREFERENCE that makes them like that, to you. Some people prefer veiltails to other types of fish! They are stunning fish, albeit common thanks to pet stores, and any type, when bred responsibly, can be worth a ton to anyone. 

Starting with petstore stock for VTs MIGHT not be the smartest idea, since they have been "milled" for so long that they do seem to have moved away from the ideal, but when it comes down to it, breeding is about each individual's goals. We never would have gotten our CTs, Double Tails, and Halfmoons if someone hadn't strayed from the established ideal to create something new. 

As for your statement about "And you really shouldn't be breeding for a couple fish," isn't that what BREEDERS do? They ship the rest off to shows and homes and never hear about them again, except for the few they keep to continue their line. As a new breeder, you probably won't have a line producing exemplary show or breeding stock without a lot of work. By allowing the father to cull the fry (if, indeed, the father can be left with the fry) you are actually starting with the healthiest, strongest fish you could have gotten! The number is smaller, so there is less competition for resources (and less growth-inhibiting pheromone released) and the remaining fish can grow stronger. Yeah, this isn't a "natural scenario," but with survival of the fittest courtesy of dad, you get the best health of the spawn, and from there can pick the best for your desired traits such as finnage and color.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Vizja- Although I have no problem with breeding high quality veiltails and fully support them getting into shows, this user is breeding pet store veiltails and is going to give them to the pet store. We all know that the more on the shelf, the more that die before finding homes. This persons best plan is to give them to the petstore.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It depends on what the breeder's goals are, whether or not VTs would be a good match for them. As far as desirable, it's an individual's opinion.. 99% of people who purchase bettas purchase them for their looks/colors. They will choose a VT over any other fin if they find that particular fish pretty/attractive. I was at Petco yesterday, saw 2 people wanting bettas (the guy was putting them out at the time.. me and him sort of bonded lol).. pretty DTs, HMs, HMDTs, etc.. those two people chose VTs because they thought those particular ones were pretty over the others. 

So no, showers and breeders don't tend to buy them, but the majority of the population who do buy bettas for pets don't care the fin type.

Matts.. I respect you in many ways, but guess where a lot of my bettas are going? Even Petco mentioned an interest in my dragonscales. I'm not going to be able to sell a hundred + on AB - and Petco just opened so all the LFS around have closed.. so my options are limited.

Also.. if you don't sell all of your fish, can't find anyone to take them, and you need room.. do you cull? A lot of people do.. so what is the difference between the breeder killing them or the breeder giving them some chance at finding a home?


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> Vizja- Although I have no problem with breeding high quality veiltails and fully support them getting into shows, this user is breeding pet store veiltails and is going to give them to the pet store. We all know that the more on the shelf, the more that die before finding homes. This persons best plan is to give them to the petstore.


To that point, I do agree. You should make sure you are starting from good stock, and unfortunately petstore VTs are bred the worst with mixed coloring and just plain weird genetics. I just think you take this too far, breeding VTs is not all bad, it depends on the stock you start from. Quite honestly, if I could get any fish from aquabid right now, it would be a VT male I saw the other day. 


To the original poster, breeding should be something everyone who is willing to dedicate the time and money should get to enjoy (and better to try with fish then, say, a dog...). However, that dedication needs to go all the way through. You said you were keeping several, how about giving the rest to friends or family? Advertising around your neighborhood, or on craigslist? Make sure the fish get the best home you can give them, and if you cannot commit to that, then yes, perhaps re-thinking breeding would be a wise idea.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Ah.. but many breeders who show start with pet store bettas.. in fact, 2 of my breeders are from pet stores.

As long as the fish is healthy it is NO different than a fish from a breeder. Pet store bettas come from breeders.. it's not like they grow them in trees 

A healthy betta, regardless of where it comes from, will have good babies. The only downside to a pet store betta is the uncertainty of what colors you will get. But other than that, there is nothing wrong with breeding a healthy pet store fish.

How many guppies, platies, mollies from pet stores do people breed? What is the difference between them and bettas?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Pet store bettas are essentially two mass produced fish being thrown together to create two more mass produced fish. Unknown genetics and typically bad finnage. There are gems, however I highly doubt that this person has two high quality vts.


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

I was actually referring specifically to veils in this case. I agree, so long as you use strong, healthy, well formed fish from stores, and you cull carefully, then breeding them is in my opinion fine. I personally worry more from a health standpoint (genetic defects causing health or structural issues) in the unknown and not necessarily responsible genetics of pet store fish. 

I'll be perfectly honest, my red copper pair are from petstores. Is from petstores? Both sound weird, anyway. I just think you need to be very careful what you breed, and be wary of the extremely mixed genetic background of veils, which from what I have seen, is less clean than the other tail types. 

And no one tell my veils I said that about them, I adore my two, I would just never use them because I recognize that they are not breeding quality, while my HM is actually worth starting from.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Petstore bettas can be bred as long as they're healthy. The OP may end up with only a dozen or so babies. The first fish I ever got from a breeder came from a spawn that had about 15 or 16 that lived to adulthood.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I own and breed petstore fish but-

1)They are not veiltails.
2)They are what I would consider "gems"
3)They are from pet stores that I trust, not mega companies
4)They are deform free and healthy

There is nothing inherently wrong with pet store fish. Ask Sena. But it seems as though this person just walked into a pet store and grabbed the first two fish they saw.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

You do not know how he went about picking his fish. Please do not assume.

You feel your petstore bettas are gems. This member most likely feels his petstore bettas are gems. Regardless, these are both opinions. You can think what you want, but that doesn't necessarily mean your way of thinking is the only way.

How are mass produced petstore HMs or CTs or DTs any better than mass produced petstore VTs background-wise? All betta types are making their way into the large chain petstores now. A healthy, deformity-free HM/CT/DT and a healthy deformity-free VT sitting side by side in a petstore both still have unknown genetic backgrounds. What makes the other tail types less prone to flaws? What makes them less deformed? What makes them more worthy of being bred?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Why are the other tail types worth more and rarer fenghung? By your logic, they should all be the same price.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

VTs tend to actually be hardier than the "fancy" ones now that are all the rage. You are very correct Feng, a "gem" that is a VT or a "gem" that is an HM, PK, CT or whathaveyou is still a "gem" and the same regardless of fin types. Just because one group - the IBC - doesn't show VTs (anymore, at this moment) does not mean they are any less of a quality of fish than another fin type. It's because HMs, CTs, PKs are a bit newer that people go nuts over them.. they are like a fad.. one day they will perfect the rosetail so that they are breedable and people will go nuts for those.

You can't say that this one specific tail type of a fish is any less of a "gem"/fish than another.. they are the exact same fish with different variations of fins. No one is better nor less than the other.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> Why are the other tail types worth more and rarer fenghung? By your logic, they should all be the same price.


Because they are the new "thing/it/fad/fashion" right now. 
They are NOT rarer.. all chain stores now carry every fin type available - EVERY. You can not say the mom and pop ones count, as they get their stock mainly from breeders. But as for any other big store, you will find every fin type in stores - and not talking about a specific store, but in general.

They are not rarer online either - in fact you will find more HMs and HMPKs online than you will find VTs.. which makes the VTs more rarer if we go by your logic. 

I will correct myself here.. some people prefer the spread of the fins on HMs - not everyone likes/breeds them because they are the new "hot item". But it's the same for people who love VTs.. they love how they look. And why should a breeder be punished and talked down to because they chose a certain type of fin over another? How is this going to directly affect any other person that is not purchasing the fish from the breeder? It's not.. so why do we argue about it? Why not help? I will warn about how it could be difficult to sell VTs, but if this person has a store willing to take them.. then I'm all for it! They get a chance to live in a home at least..


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

The VT phenotype is dominant. HM is, by far, much more recessive. DTs are associated with a lot more deformities. Others are still recessive to VTs. Bettas are priced higher based on this principle. It's simply economics... If something is more readily available and less labour intensive to produce, prices stay low. It does not necessarily mean less people want veiltails. It just mean that there is more supply.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Vizja13 said:


> Mattsbettas, veiltails are not "undesireable," it's your PREFERENCE that makes them like that, to you. Some people prefer veiltails to other types of fish! They are stunning fish, albeit common thanks to pet stores, and any type, when bred responsibly, can be worth a ton to anyone.
> 
> Starting with petstore stock for VTs MIGHT not be the smartest idea, since they have been "milled" for so long that they do seem to have moved away from the ideal, but when it comes down to it, breeding is about each individual's goals. We never would have gotten our CTs, Double Tails, and Halfmoons if someone hadn't strayed from the established ideal to create something new.
> 
> As for your statement about "And you really shouldn't be breeding for a couple fish," isn't that what BREEDERS do? They ship the rest off to shows and homes and never hear about them again, except for the few they keep to continue their line. As a new breeder, you probably won't have a line producing exemplary show or breeding stock without a lot of work. By allowing the father to cull the fry (if, indeed, the father can be left with the fry) you are actually starting with the healthiest, strongest fish you could have gotten! The number is smaller, so there is less competition for resources (and less growth-inhibiting pheromone released) and the remaining fish can grow stronger. Yeah, this isn't a "natural scenario," but with survival of the fittest courtesy of dad, you get the best health of the spawn, and from there can pick the best for your desired traits such as finnage and color.


What voice of reason!
+++++++++


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Myrates, go in and count the number of vt fish to all others. As of now, there are 446 hm and 418 hmpk on aquabid. How many vt are in stores right now? So no, by my logic they are rarer. And regardless of the fact that vts are in lasses and whatever, this person is breeding their fish so that the majority will go back to pet stores. The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die. Easy.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Vizja13 said:


> To that point, I do agree. You should make sure you are starting from good stock, and unfortunately petstore VTs are bred the worst with mixed coloring and just plain weird genetics. I just think you take this too far, breeding VTs is not all bad, it depends on the stock you start from. Quite honestly, if I could get any fish from aquabid right now, it would be a VT male I saw the other day.
> 
> 
> To the original poster, breeding should be something everyone who is willing to dedicate the time and money should get to enjoy (and better to try with fish then, say, a dog...). However, that dedication needs to go all the way through. You said you were keeping several, how about giving the rest to friends or family? Advertising around your neighborhood, or on craigslist? Make sure the fish get the best home you can give them, and if you cannot commit to that, then yes, perhaps re-thinking breeding would be a wise idea.



I am not from USA, I am from Serbia. We don't have Craigslist here nor is anyone willing to buy a fish of the web from me, especially since there already is such a service here, in Serbia.

*Here, bettas are kept in excellent conditions.* There is no reason to assume that all pet stores are neglecting their betta fish. Here, in every store, bettas are kept in individual tanks (10 gallon at least), planted, cycled, with snails and other fish suitable to be kept with a betta. Really, I have never seen a betta being kept badly at pet stores here. Here are some pictures I took when I was at the store:

Sorrority:










And males are kept in individual tanks:



















So there you go. I plan to breed my beautiful veilteils, keep a few I like and give the rest to shops like these. You can rant about over populating low quality bettas, but you have no part in their existence.

All the commotion was caused because of ignorance, once again, as always on forums...


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Myrates, go in and count the number of vt fish to all others. As of now, there are 446 hm and 418 hmpk on aquabid. How many vt are in stores right now? So no, by my logic they are rarer. And regardless of the fact that vts are in lasses and whatever, this person is breeding their fish so that the majority will go back to pet stores. The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die. Easy.


You must feel really silly now that you see my post.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> Myrates, go in and count the number of vt fish to all others. As of now, there are 446 hm and 418 hmpk on aquabid. How many vt are in stores right now? So no, by my logic they are rarer. And regardless of the fact that vts are in lasses and whatever, this person is breeding their fish so that the majority will go back to pet stores. The more fish on the shelves, the more fish that die. Easy.





Myates said:


> *They are not rarer online either - in fact you will find more HMs and HMPKs online than you will find VTs.. which makes the VTs more rarer if we go by your logic. *


You don't see them much online because people willing to spend the money to ship want something a bit more flashier.. they have this mentality that VTs are lesser of a fish.
You do realize most chain stores now carry more HMs, PKs, CT and the varieties of those than they carry VTs... they have VTs, mom and pop stores have VTs.. but the other fins are there just as much and in many places, more than VTs are.

You do realize most of the bettas purchased in the world are purchased in stores rather than online? Only people serious into the hobby/breeding purchase theirs online and spend that much money. But 99% of betta owners got theirs from the store..


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> I own and breed petstore fish but-
> 
> 1)They are not veiltails.
> 2)They are what I would consider "gems"
> ...


I didn't grab the first, I picked the prettiest one. I picked my "gems".


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

Also, in response to your original question, I found these two articles again which may be helpful. The whole site, in fact, is great for information about breeding. 

http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=809
http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=839


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Vizja13 said:


> Also, in response to your original question, I found these two articles again which may be helpful. The whole site, in fact, is great for information about breeding.
> 
> http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=809
> http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=839



Thanks! I have actually read a ton of these, but it's always good to read another one.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I really do not want to "argue". I just want to ask a question.

Why has IBC no longer allow for VT showings?

There is a reason why the VT are the main betta found in the petstores, but the true reason has yet to be posted here. Go to the local pet store and ask them why.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I leave my male with the spawn long after they are free swimming. If they are in a loarge tank, he will cull just the deformed weak fry. If he is in a smaller tank with several (few hundred or so) fry, he may cull some healthy ones because he will think there is not enough food/space for all those young. But I personally like to leave it up to Dad. He knows way more about what is going on with those fry then I can possibly know.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> I leave my male with the spawn long after they are free swimming. If they are in a loarge tank, he will cull just the deformed weak fry. If he is in a smaller tank with several (few hundred or so) fry, he may cull some healthy ones because he will think there is not enough food/space for all those young. But I personally like to leave it up to Dad. He knows way more about what is going on with those fry then I can possibly know.


Sounds great, I am gonna feed him enough so that he could differ parenting from hunger.


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

That's my plan as well, leave my HM with the fry until they are moved to the larger growout. I like the lower number of adults, along with the healthiest I can get out of the spawn. 

I know some people think it's inhumane, and I won't argue with their methods, this is just the method I think will work best for me.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Visja, leaving the male with the fry is IMO the most humane way to cull. Also the most risky however.


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm with you on that, Matts. I'll keep a close eye on the male of course,but at least they are being culled young enough not to really register, unlike...dropping them in clove oil or islce water or the like


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

We all meet at truth.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Who says Veil Tails aren't awesome?


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

That one has a weird spine (unless it's just the pic) and the uneven dragon scaling has never been my thing, but still, pretty fish!

Phone thank you for autocorrecting "ice" -.- islce what the heck


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I think it's gorgeous! And it has a Plakat body.


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

soady said:


> I think it's gorgeous! And it has a Plakat body.


Honestly, it looks like a really bad Photoshop job to me. The black lines are too defined and outlined ... that eye looks like a cartoon. Where did the photo come from?


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

tekkguy said:


> Honestly, it looks like a really bad Photoshop job to me. The black lines are too defined and outlined ... that eye looks like a cartoon. *Where did the photo come from?*


From Heaven: http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/veiltail+betta


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Pics of both sides, etc. Nothing is Photoshopped, why would someone do that. Beautiful Veils!


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

soady said:


> Pics of both sides, etc. Nothing is Photoshopped, why would someone do that. Beautiful Veils!


LOL ... it sounds silly, but there have been some people on AB that have done just that! That was my first though. If it's real, it's absolutely gorgeous. If not, it's really bad ... lol


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## tekkguy (Jan 28, 2013)

And sorry, no ... the other side of it looks Photoshopped also ... the way the fins lay over looks unnatural, like it was drawn in. The person who posted it is listed as an "artist"


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Bent spine, spoonhead, and really weird color and its still probably photoshopped. And there is no such thing as a "plakat body".


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

That was my thought on the body...sorry Soady, it's a pretty fish, just not exactly a desired body type for breeding. 

I wonder if Rory will let me get some pics of him...he's afraid of the camera though


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Bent spine, spoonhead = "plakat body". Very thick body, and VT's are usually slim.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm sorry, but plakat bodies do not exist. Please, find me a reliable source that says they do.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

You can try to find it yourself if you want to. I do not really care about it, just wanted to emphasize that it's body resembles a PK even though it is a VT. You should stop being childish right about now.


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

This is Rory, one of my VTs. His fins are way messy, I suspect some CT background. He's actually more purple than he looks. 

He came from a smaller store, I keep meaning to go in to ask where they get their fish, but they are a ways away from me.

WHy won't that load...sigh. 

http://doublevision107.deviantart.com/art/Purple-Veiltail-Male-Betta-356979592

Link to my dA


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

"_Plakats - Male Plakats are short-finned. They have the shape of a halfmoon, but only a quarter of "halfmoon length". The fins are still longer than the females' though. This type is extremely aggressive, and should be kept solitary. Many different betta breeds are described as having a "Plakat body"._"

http://www.wikihow.com/Identify-Different-Betta-Fish


And "spoonhead" you mentioned is a variation of Plakat body type:

http://nippyfish.net/bettas-201/plakat-betta/


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Rory looks like he could look a bit better?


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

That's the point I was trying to make. He's a gorgeous fish, yes, but still not fit breeding stock.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

My betta looks a whole lot better. I think yours doesn't look his best on that picture.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

You're offensive. Calling me ignorant and childish. You are the one who posted this thread and you are the one making errors, so you can expect to be criticized for those. Simple, really. First of all, wikihow is a compleatly unreliable source, anyone can wright anything. And on the second site, the "body types" they are talking about are just variations of the traditional pla kat. Spoonhead is not a normal or good thing.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> You're offensive. Calling me ignorant and childish. You are the one who posted this thread and you are the one making errors, so you can expect to be criticized for those. Simple, really. First of all, wikihow is a compleatly unreliable source, anyone can wright anything. And on the second site, the "body types" they are talking about are just variations of the traditional pla kat. Spoonhead is not a normal or good thing.


Go on...

Tell me more about how the bettas in pet stores will surely die.

All I hear is shouting at people about breeding. You should really relax.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

And you really shouldn't breed veil tails. In a community tank. With gravel.


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

Soady, no one is shouting at anyone. Everything Matt's has said about finnage and body type is true and kindly worded. You've asked for advice, and are now getting mad when we give it. 

I took two minutes to take that picture with no mirro. But you can still see his body and fins. Pretty to someone who wants a pet, unfit for breeding. And that is the whole point we've been trying to make; just make sure to know.the difference between breeder and pet.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> And you really shouldn't breed veil tails. In a community tank. With gravel.


Read the thread carefully, and you will see how i will breed them. You obviously don't read all that I write, or you forget what you read.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I did read it. That's precisely what you are planning on doing but you will take other fish out.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Yeah, I am gonna breed my pet bettas. Just one red VT and one iridescent RT. Go figure...

And about MattsBettas, he got off the subject a while ago...



MattsBettas said:


> I did read it. That's precisely what you are planning on doing but you will take other fish out.


From the other thread... Guess you didn't read *that* one...

"_There is my solution. The neons will be at my 1 gallon bowl while the female betta will have the other side of the tank. *Everyone will be happy. Especially since I will remove all the gravel from the left side where the nest will be.* I will then not let them see each other for a while, condition them, and finally introduce them to a healthy environment, small, but healthy and spacious enough for how many fish will determine the father as he will stay with them until some age when I  can give them to an aquarium pet store._"


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Hey Matt, actually there is a "Plakat body" It is a shorter stocker build. Not "crooked and spoon head" like someone said. I learned this from Linda Olson who is a former IBC judge, an editor for the magazine, and nominated for president of IBC. She knows her stuff. She told me this in a conversation we had about why most of the bettas these days have a shorter body. It came along when breeding for the plakat tail. Personally, I am currently breeding plakat tail giants, and I'm working on establishing a longer leaner body. Was fortunate enough to find a male and female that both have the long body! 

What no one here has talked about is why IBC chose to stop having veil tails catagories. The reason is they have found out that the long tails are hard on the fish. They are beautiful! but the IBC is about promoting what is best for the species. Now, my first bettas were veil tails as well. If you mention betta fish to the majority of people, they picture a veil tail. The reason is, that is what the stores carry, and that is what they know. I have two pet stores that I sell to. I breed other fish as well and also propogate aquatic plants. Both of the stores are hesitant to take plakat or halfmoon bettas. They fear that they will not sale. Because the majority of the population think of the long veil tails when they think of bettas. I have gotten them to buy deltas, but I think that is because they didn't know the difference! I truly believe they thought I breed some "bad" or "short tailed" veil tails. (Shaking head) 

I am hoping to try and change some things in the pet stores around here. I am going to start breeding a variety of colors of plakats. I want to grow the females together, and offer them to the petstores and teach them about sororities. If they set up a display, it may catch on. People like cichlids because they are cheap, colorful, freshwater fish and you can keep alot together. (sort of) Well, good breed plakat females are very colorful. They can be kept together, especially if they are raised that way. Plus you can have plants in their tanks, something you cannot do with cichlids.

Now, I am not going to argue any of this with any of you. If you want to breed veiltails, there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. I have also learned that you really cannot have much of a discussion on this forum without people wanting to argue and sling $h**. I don't play those childish games. I'm not saying those people are on this thread, but there are some on this forum. What I have said about the veil tails is true, and we all have to make our own decisions. I do believe that we are all here because we love these fish. And Lord knows we spend a small fortune breeding them. There is definitely no money to be made in it. So lets all play nice together.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

soady said:


> From the other thread... Guess you didn't read *that* one...
> 
> "_There is my solution. The neons will be at my 1 gallon bowl while the female betta will have the other side of the tank. *Everyone will be happy. Especially since I will remove all the gravel from the left side where the nest will be.* I will then not let them see each other for a while, condition them, and finally introduce them to a healthy environment, small, but healthy and spacious enough for how many fish will determine the father as he will stay with them until some age when I can give them to an aquarium pet store._"





Myates said:


> Why put multiple fish in such a small container, where the ammonia will build up quickly (more than bettas, because every time a fish uses it's gills, it creates ammonia). Why not put the female in the 1g with a heater, get a 10g and put the neons in that?
> 
> Then everyone will be happy. But multiple neons in a bowl? They need a filter.. you expect them to live in that bowl, cold (the temp will be below 70), full of ammonia for 3+ months?


-.-

I think the focus should be more on how they are going to be bred is more detrimental than what he is breeding.
Let him breed VTs.. if someone willing to buy them then go for it. He first has to realize he won't be having any survive for long.. so the type he is breeding will be moot


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks lvl! You informed me about something in a polite way!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

"Let him breed VTs.."

I never asked for anyone's approval. My VT's will not be *moot*.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Anytime Mattsbettas! That is what we are here for is to learn from one another!  Some of us anyway.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas sure learned about "Plakat body"


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Yes. Because I have an open mind. You, however, close your ears to anything we say. And your definition and lvl's definition are very different.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Not saying the VTs will be moot, but selling them may because without proper care and bigger/more tanks, they won't survive long enough to be sold.. that is all I am saying. The proper equipment/set up is vital for their survival.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

You are very close minded. In your mind, you were just teasing me to find "reliable evidence blah blah". It never occurred to you that it may exist. You have a child's mentality and I advise you to stop posting in my threads because you won't get any more replies. (It's a standard procedure for ignorant people, I'm sure you won't understand)


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Soady, I'm sorry, but if I heard you say something about bettas that I never heard before I would not believe it to be accurate either. You have very little knowledge of the species, and you refuse to learn anything from those who do know. THAT is why Mattsbettas didn't believe you, and he even asked you for a RELIABLE SOURCE because you are not.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

You missed the point. I started this thread so I could have my question answered, and he just sees bits and pieces and rants about them. Understand? With no point.


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

Lvl are you sure that the ibc doesn't have classes for bettas because of their heavy tails? I've never heard that before. I was told by the old ibc president and some of the top breeders in the country that vts aren't shown because they are considered a thing of the past. There is no standard and no one is working with them so why would they have classes for them. I don't think it has anything to do with their fins after all your standard show half moon has much bigger fins then your standard veil tail.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I would like to advise you guys to stop arguing and name calling before this thread is closed. Calling names like childish and ignorant will not be tolerated.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Soady, I've not seen Mattsbettas "rant" about anything. He states his opinion or answers a post, and moves with the conversation. He came to this thread and posted an response, and YOU brought up his opinion about veiltails.

I have a question that I really would like an answer to. Why do you insist on ignoring the advice given to you about breeding bettas? Is it because you think we are misleading you in some way, do you think we do not know what we are talking about, or is there another reason? I am not attacking you in this question, it just confuses me that people do this. So I am very curious as to the reason behind your behavior.

Moonshadow, I was told that they are a "thing of the past" because people realized how heavy the veil tails are for the fish, and therefore not a desired trait. And that the IBC did not want to promote the breeding of this trait. Therefore, it is a thing of the past. In the veil tails, the fish do not have control over the entire length of the tail. The tail hangs and causes a drag in the water,and it is much harder for the fish to swim. In the halfmoons, the fish have total control over the entire length of the tail and can hold it up and move it where ever it needs in order to swim.

There is no standard and no one is working with them so why would they have classes for them.

Moonshadow, the IBC are the 
ones who set the standards for the fish.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

This thread surely escalated. I didn't say anything yesterday because I thought it had settled down. But like DQ, I will CLOSE this thread if the arguing and name calling keeps up. We are a family of betta lovers, so lets please keep it family friendly. 

As far as I know VT are "the past" because IBC can't make standards such as desired fin shape and lengths, balance, etc. Not because of their heavy finnage. Perhaps this was also considered but as far as I know it wasn't the main reason.

There is a difference with body; the PK is shorter but thicker while the VT is longer and slim. The two (shoet finned and long finned) are often crossed to improve long fin's body (make it thicker) and fins (make rays bigger or make fins stiffer). BUT BOTH should have a torpedo/bullet shape top line which means it has a perfectly healthy spine.

Each area/country . . . heck even every single person may have their own preference on the betta's physical appearance. PLEASE respect it, regardless of how you feel about it. And the OP, being informed is not being yelled at. Everyone is trying to give his/her best opinion according to his/her preference. So don't take them as something offensive and reply by name calling.

Just to clear things up: 
@soady; I know you are in Serbia. TBH I know nothing about your country nor your people. But you must understand that most members here are from the US. Betta breeding can be very expensive for them. VT are the cheapest and most common fin type in pet stores and lots of them rot and never find homes. Please, try to understand these people's concerns, why they don't want to add more VT to pet shops. Further the expenses in breeding any betta is the same. So it is only logical that breeding modern fin type is financially, though only slightly, better.

To everyone else; Please understand and respect that the OP is in Serbia, different condition, preference, etc.

That being said, I hope this arguing will stop and move on to "discussing" what is feasible - such as the breeding method/setup.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> Soady, I've not seen Mattsbettas "rant" about anything. He states his opinion or answers a post, and moves with the conversation. He came to this thread and posted an response, and YOU brought up his opinion about veiltails.
> 
> I have a question that I really would like an answer to. Why do you insist on ignoring the advice given to you about breeding bettas? Is it because you think we are misleading you in some way, do you think we do not know what we are talking about, or is there another reason? I am not attacking you in this question, it just confuses me that people do this. So I am very curious as to the reason behind your behavior.
> 
> ...



It's okay... I dislike him because he comes up blunt saying VTs are bad and that I shouldn't breed them. He won't change, but I will listen to advice and have a succsessful spawn. I might buy a 15 gallon bucket for the fry if it gets too crowded.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

indjo said:


> This thread surely escalated. I didn't say anything yesterday because I thought it had settled down. But like DQ, I will CLOSE this thread if the arguing and name calling keeps up. We are a family of betta lovers, so lets please keep it family friendly.
> 
> As far as I know VT are "the past" because IBC can't make standards such as desired fin shape and lengths, balance, etc. Not because of their heavy finnage. Perhaps this was also considered but as far as I know it wasn't the main reason.
> 
> ...


+++


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

15 gallons is still too small for a fry growout... 20 gallons is absolute minimum


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I'll always support whatever people want to breed. I will warn about whether or not it may be easily sold (here in the US), etc.. but I have no problem with VTs.. they are actually ones I really love and I would breed them in a heartbeat if they were desirable here.

My only concern was how you plan on going about the breeding, the selling waaaay before they would be ready, not giving them anything larger than 4 gallons the whole time you have them, etc. Fin type makes no difference - each breeder has their favorites and opinions.. no one has the right to say another can't breed something because it isn't a favorite among breeders and show people. It's about the care that matters.. HMs would turn out ugly if not bred/raised in proper conditions.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Vizja13 said:


> 15 gallons is still too small for a fry growout... 20 gallons is absolute minimum


20 is okay if it is a small spawn - if culled very heavily. I personally won't use anything under 29g.. and my latest spawn of around 200+ I will probably end up splitting between two of those. 

15g is okay if they cull down to a low number. Can't assume each spawn is going to be hundreds.. may end up with only 10 survivors and 10 would be fine in a 15g with proper water changes.


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## Vizja13 (Jul 18, 2011)

That's fair. I guess it depends on how much you cull


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It does.. you can also split up the spawns into multiple 10gs, etc. There are many ways to breed, but they have the same requirements that need to be met regardless what size you breed/grow in.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Here, in Serbia, VTs have no problem being sold and I've already arranged the transfer with the manager of a local store. As I said, I will buy one of those plastic containers of 15-20 gallons and make a good setup there along with some floating plants with a heater but not a filter. Condition them properly, introduce etc. The rest of my fishes will be taken care of properly.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I would recommend getting at least 2 of those.. and a way to light them, as living in the dark isn't good for them.. and you will still need the jars and a way to heat the jars because... again... they need to grow before you sell them and they will need to be separated weeks before you sell them. How are you going to be able to see them clearly to know which ones are deformed or sick when in a dark bucket?

SO ... at least another grow out tank, unless you plan to kill off most of them.
A way to light the buckets so they don't live in absolute dark.. 
Jars and a way to heat them all.

Can't skimp.. this guy may give you a few cents for the fish, but they should at least be healthy and active, and big enough.

You are breeding to breed, and if you think you will make money on it you won't. You aren't doing it for the love of the species, if you did you would put in at least half the effort needed to properly raise them... can't skimp, you skimp you kill.

What do you plan to feed them?


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I just breed two virgins about a month ago and ended up with at least300 fry! Those little fish can surprise you! Just because it is their first time doesn't mean they will have fewer offspring. I know that in other animals, birds, cats, dogs, the younger the fewer offspring. Not necessarily so with bettas


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Wow, I've been lurking...
There's an extremely long thread devoted to veiltails. Chard56 is an active breeder of them. I think he sells them on Aquabid.

I was going to use my females to cull. I have 9- I feel it's the most natural way. In the wild, 500 little fry would be gobbled up by other fish in no time.Probably fast, too.

Now I'm absolutely paranoid about the quality of my parents. They aren't sibs, but both a nice, strong yellow. I paid $$$, but that doesn't mean they're any good. I was going to buy another yellow girl that's posted on ebay (as a "backup"), but she'd another $45+ shipping... sigh.

I wonder how many yellow spawn I will get if any? It seems to be recessive to everything. BTW, they're HMs, but a yellow veiltail would be gorgeous!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

P. S. We're losing sight of the purpose of the fish. Regardless of finnage, we want beautiful fish to look at and care for. The vast majority will never be bred. As long as they're healthy and well cared for, who cares about what's "in fashion"? It's too bad the veiltail has been overbred. It's a lovely fin type.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> I would recommend getting at least 2 of those.. and a way to light them, as living in the dark isn't good for them.. and you will still need the jars and a way to heat the jars because... again... they need to grow before you sell them and they will need to be separated weeks before you sell them. How are you going to be able to see them clearly to know which ones are deformed or sick when in a dark bucket?
> 
> SO ... at least another grow out tank, unless you plan to kill off most of them.
> A way to light the buckets so they don't live in absolute dark..
> ...


It sounds like a good idea to get two 15-20 gallon containers which will be covered. I would be grateful if you gave me a piece of advice on when to split them up, and how. They won't be in darkness, I will put a table lamp above them. I will also buy a heater for each one. Once I separate them in jars, they will all be heated together, by heating the water that the jars are in.

I plan to feed them infusoria for the first week, and then continue with BBS, and gradually add more types of food like boiled egg yolk and frozen red mosquito larvae, frozen daphnia, frozen artemia, etc.

I won't cull any myself, I will let the father do it. I will remove him if he culls too many.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

On another thread we discussed using plastic tubs as grow-outs. I'm a woman living alone- I can't manage lifting/managing a glass 40 gallon. I'm going to get 4-6 clear storage tubs @ Walmart for grow-outs- I can stack & store them later. Yes! I have a spare 5 heaters!!! Besides, a heater & a tub are cheaper than a 40-gal glass tank & a heater!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Plastic tubs are great because they are easier to warm, and if they are see through, they are perfect. Just make sure to cover the top with a lid or cellophane with tiny holes so the air above the water would stay humid.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I wouldn't try feeding them the frozen foods - their mouths won't be able to eat it. Normally the first couple of days (after egg sacs are gone) you will want to start on either infusoria (which lasts only for a few days), NEWLY hatched BBS (as they start to grow, even in 24hrs, they will become less nutritious, too big for the fry), and micro worms/banana worms/vinegar eels/walter worms, etc.. as they are microscopic. The frozen foods you listed won't be able to feed the fry - not to mention they tend not to eat anything that isn't alive and wiggling.. so would look into finding the other foods before you get eggs. Those will be fed for the first month+.. and start sooner rather than later at getting your clutures growing, as you will be feeding a lot of it and if you don't have some strong cultures you can easily run out of food. You can feed BBS all the time - but many experience SBD when doing so, so it's a risk. IMO, it's better to mix it up just enough as to not cause over eating issues.

Egg yolk really isn't idea.. a few breeders use it, but majority don't like to because it fouls up the water really quickly and it stinks.. very dirty.. especially since they will be in a small tank (if you're still using the 4g), you will want to avoid the egg yolk - stick with newly hatched BBS, micro cultures that I listed as their first food for the first month+. 

Xalt- make sure the heaters are adjustable and can warm up the tubs to 82-84 - for that size I would go 75-150 watt heaters.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> I wouldn't try feeding them the frozen foods - their mouths won't be able to eat it. Normally the first couple of days (after egg sacs are gone) you will want to start on either infusoria (which lasts only for a few days), NEWLY hatched BBS (as they start to grow, even in 24hrs, they will become less nutritious, too big for the fry), and micro worms/banana worms/vinegar eels/walter worms, etc.. as they are microscopic. The frozen foods you listed won't be able to feed the fry - not to mention they tend not to eat anything that isn't alive and wiggling.. so would look into finding the other foods before you get eggs. Those will be fed for the first month+.. and start sooner rather than later at getting your clutures growing, as you will be feeding a lot of it and if you don't have some strong cultures you can easily run out of food. You can feed BBS all the time - but many experience SBD when doing so, so it's a risk. IMO, it's better to mix it up just enough as to not cause over eating issues.
> 
> Egg yolk really isn't idea.. a few breeders use it, but majority don't like to because it fouls up the water really quickly and it stinks.. very dirty.. especially since they will be in a small tank (if you're still using the 4g), you will want to avoid the egg yolk - stick with newly hatched BBS, micro cultures that I listed as their first food for the first month+.
> 
> Xalt- make sure the heaters are adjustable and can warm up the tubs to 82-84 - for that size I would go 75-150 watt heaters.


I will get two heaters and two 20 gallon plastic containers. (I gave up the idea of spawning them in 4g a while ago) Thanks for the feeding advice, I will probably reconsider egg yolk and focus on BBS (newly hatched). At what time will they be able to eat frozen food? (if I cut it up in small pieces, not to give them whole red mosquito larvae etc.) I will get as many different live cultures as I can find.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

About a month and a half you can start introducing other foods such as freeze dried tubifex worms, black worms, etc. After a couple weeks you can attempt dry foods such as fry flakes/powder, etc. Those don't always tend to go well - I'm trying to get some of my fry to eat that stuff now, mixing in with their live foods.. but not going so well lol. Most fry have a hard time eating anything that isn't moving. But for the frozen.. I would have to say if diced up very very small possibly about 6-8 weeks in. Unsure exactly though - I was actually planning on attempting just that in about 3 weeks myself. 

Careful to not over feed the BBS - some times you will get some fry that end up with SBD issues from over feeding. Can't really help it.. and it's not all the time. Just be aware of it is all. I feed mine mix of the micro cultures (3-4 of them) 2x a day, and BBS 1-2x a day.. some days I skip the BBS, some days I feed a bit more. They are actually starting to get more of it now as they are getting a bit bigger and I feel they can handle more of it.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Looking in my stash of food, I found a package of "Pure Aquatic" Fry Food. It's a pouch containing a liquid food-"Ideal for all fry" it claims. The 1st ingredient is fish meal. Anyone had experience w/ this?


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks again, Myates! Good luck with your fry.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Xald - fish meal is just a mush up of fish parts.. 

Fry tend not to eat anything if it's not moving when they are little. Some may, but generally most won't. A package of liquid food probably isn't going to contain the protein that these little fish require. Honestly, I would just stick to what is proven and the best foods - live.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Just another small suggestion. Be careful with the heater in the plastic container. It can melt the container and possibly even start a fire. What I do, is fill up a flower vase with water, place that in the container, and place the heater inside the cvase. This will keep the heater off the plastic.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

soady said:


> Who says Veil Tails aren't awesome?


VTs are awesome but that pic has been edited using "Effects". 

My favorite male is my VT Fred who is a stunner. I would not put the amount of time or effort required to properly raise a spawn of his as it would be difficult for me to sell where I live. Everyone makes some good points in this thread. The IBC needs to wake up and class VTs for show. Silly to have a major part of betta history without show status. I think its because the show betta pros dont have any anymore themselves to show so its a no go.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I tend to pull the male after the fry are free swimming. I don't count on my guy culling the right ones. Yes he may cull deformed but I can do that too and have had very few like that to start with. I have had egg/fry eaters in the past so my opinion may be biased here. Whatever works for the individual breeder.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> Just another small suggestion. Be careful with the heater in the plastic container. It can melt the container and possibly even start a fire. What I do, is fill up a flower vase with water, place that in the container, and place the heater inside the cvase. This will keep the heater off the plastic.


I don't think that it can melt the plastic because the heater warms the water and gets cooled by it. I often see my betta's tail touching the heater while it is on with no problems. However, I will make sure that the heater doesn't touch the plastic, and I will use some kind of vase if I can't attach it properly to the round tank.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

logisticsguy said:


> VTs are awesome but that pic has been edited using "Effects".
> 
> My favorite male is my VT Fred who is a stunner. I would not put the amount of time or effort required to properly raise a spawn of his as it would be difficult for me to sell where I live. Everyone makes some good points in this thread. The IBC needs to wake up and class VTs for show. Silly to have a major part of betta history without show status. I think its because the show betta pros dont have any anymore themselves to show so its a no go.


I realized that this picture is Photoshopped once I zoomed in properly. If other tail types can actually have colors like this, are there no VT bettas like this because the breeders don't breed them for shows?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

As far as I know, even VT come in all sort of colors, including dragons. The demand is for colorful VT so breeders bred new colors into them too. The question is, what is the demand in your country? What colors are popular and sought after. Those colors would be abundant while other less desired colors are not.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

indjo said:


> As far as I know, even VT come in all sort of colors, including dragons. The demand is for colorful VT so breeders bred new colors into them too. The question is, what is the demand in your country? What colors are popular and sought after. Those colors would be abundant while other less desired colors are not.


In my country, we mostly have VTs. The only other fin type I saw in many different stores is CT. They are all very cheap, about $1.5 per betta. Red and blue is the most common. I guess this is because we don't have any professional breeders nearby, and they are not ordering expensive bettas because they wouldn't be able to sell them. So the stores meet demands by selling cheap VTs and CTs, being that only few people would pay $40 for a selectively bred betta.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Do a little experiment. While your heater is on, brush your fingers across it. See how you don't feel anything? Now put your fingers against it and leave it there, mimicing the heater laying against the side of a plastic container. Be very aware cause the heat will sneak up on you and burn the crap out of you. While you will see you fish brush up against them and not get burned, you will not see a fish lean up against it while it is on. Even if you manage to get the heater situated where it isn't touching the plastic container, you have to be set up for safety. Anything cn happen and the heater may slip and be touching the contAiner and you may not be home when it happens.

Or don't do anything. Mine is safe, and I have tried to tell you about it, so my mind and conscience are at ease.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> Do a little experiment. While your heater is on, brush your fingers across it. See how you don't feel anything? Now put your fingers against it and leave it there, mimicing the heater laying against the side of a plastic container. Be very aware cause the heat will sneak up on you and burn the crap out of you. While you will see you fish brush up against them and not get burned, you will not see a fish lean up against it while it is on. Even if you manage to get the heater situated where it isn't touching the plastic container, you have to be set up for safety. Anything cn happen and the heater may slip and be touching the contAiner and you may not be home when it happens.
> 
> Or don't do anything. Mine is safe, and I have tried to tell you about it, so my mind and conscience are at ease.


I won't let the heater touch the plastic in any way. I know how hot a heater can get outside of the water (super hot!) but when it is in the water, it never gets that hot, it doesn't even seem warm at the touch because all the heat gets absorbed by water. The only problem would be if it was to touch the plastic container, which I will avoid, but even then, I doubt that it could get hot on that particular spot enough to melt the plastic, since it is plastic itself and plastic is a good heat conductor so it couldn't get heated enough on one particular, touching spot. If I wrapped my fingers around it, I would get burned because I would block the water from absorbing it's warmth. Most heaters would overheat themselves if left outside of the water or gripped firmly. The lowest point of melting plastic is 160F and if a part of the filter would be touching the plastic container, that surface would never get to anything close to a temperature that high. I will be cautious though, and make sure that they don't touch.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Usually the rubber suction cups keep the heaters from touching the sides - along with the rubber cap on the end. It can get warm, maybe very thin plastic may melt.. but otherwise you shouldn't have anything to worry. I keep large, shallow tubs full of water with a heater in it for my cup/containers, etc with no wear/tear/burn/melting of it. The heaters are set at 84F (because the large open space makes it tougher to keep warm).


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Not even the thinnest plastic can melt if it doesn't reach the right temperature, and it certainly can't with a 25 watt heater touching a tiny spot of the plastic container. I know about the suction cups, but the end of the heater might touch the inside of the tank if I attached it vertically, since it will be a round one. Also, the plastic containers that I'll be using are of very hard and thick plastic so like you said, I shouldn't worry about it. Even so, I will find a way for the heater not to touch the container directly, and I might put it in a vase of some sort if it is necessary.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

How big is the container? A 25 watt heater probably won't get it to reach the 84F temp.. I use 150w for 30g tanks.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Myates said:


> How big is the container? A 25 watt heater probably won't get it to reach the 84F temp.. I use 150w for 30g tanks.


I finally decided to buy a 20g one, and I will be using a 50-100 watt heater. I mentioned the 25 watt one because that's what I have in my 15g aquarium. It doesn't make much difference temperature wise because more wattage means longer heater, not higher temperature at any part of it, just more warm surface.


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

I don't always buy a betta because they are "perfect" hell 2 of mine are not fit for breeding in no way shape or form, but they had something I liked or I rescued them, The one in my avatar I bought as a rescue even though he ended up fooling me, he was acting like he was going to die at any minute sitting on the shelf at walmart, and I like his colors/markings, other than that he is a mess fin wise, I just bough VT from walmart because he is a yellow/orange pineapple one, I don't buy a fish just because it is perfect and since there really is no IBC standard on VT's perfect is in the eye of the beholder.

What I would love to see is a Giant/King VT I think that would be awesome......


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

soady said:


> I don't think that it can melt the plastic because the heater warms the water and gets cooled by it. I often see my betta's tail touching the heater while it is on with no problems. However, I will make sure that the heater doesn't touch the plastic, and I will use some kind of vase if I can't attach it properly to the round tank.


We're OT a bit, but I agree w/ both sides. I keep a plastic bucket of treated water w/ a nano heater in it for PWTs. The heater lies directly on the plastic bucket bottom. I've never had a melting issue, but it's a small wattage heater. It actually never occured to me that it could melt! (I assumed the water draws the heat away.) I also have the same make of heater in a 1/2 gal acrylic tank for my shrimp farm. Again, it rests on the side of the tank...
BUT, when I go up in wattage for a grow out tub(s), I like the vase idea. The heater will be higher wattage, adjustable & much hotter. With frequent water changes, I don't want the heater to be exposed to the air-(won't they crack?). 
One HUGE takaway is to NEVER leave a heater that's on in an empty plastic container!!! More than once I forgot to unplug a heater after emptying the water in a water change bucket... so far, I've remembered to unplug it/refill it before any disaster happened, but it's something to think about. When we're caught up in thinking about our fish's welfare, simple safety rules can easily go out the window-esp. for those w/ Swiss cheese for brains, like me!


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> We're OT a bit, but I agree w/ both sides. I keep a plastic bucket of treated water w/ a nano heater in it for PWTs. The heater lies directly on the plastic bucket bottom. I've never had a melting issue, but it's a small wattage heater. It actually never occured to me that it could melt! (I assumed the water draws the heat away.) I also have the same make of heater in a 1/2 gal acrylic tank for my shrimp farm. Again, it rests on the side of the tank...
> BUT, when I go up in wattage for a grow out tub(s), I like the vase idea. The heater will be higher wattage, adjustable & much hotter. With frequent water changes, I don't want the heater to be exposed to the air-(won't they crack?).
> One HUGE takaway is to NEVER leave a heater that's on in an empty plastic container!!! More than once I forgot to unplug a heater after emptying the water in a water change bucket... so far, I've remembered to unplug it/refill it before any disaster happened, but it's something to think about. When we're caught up in thinking about our fish's welfare, simple safety rules can easily go out the window-esp. for those w/ Swiss cheese for brains, like me!


Yes, they will burn out if they are on out of the water, and the water does absorb the heat so the heater itself is not even warm.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I have worked in plastics my whole life up until now, and now I work at an auto manufacturing company. I have worked at plastic manufacturing companies, where I made parts made out of plastic, and the last ten years have worked in plastic recycling. Plastics have a considerably low melting point. It depends on the type of plastic and thickness. A bucket which is much thicker, will not burn as easily as say the sterlite containers. The underwater aquarium heaters are not intended to touch anything, much less be used in a plastic container. Yes, the water takes the heat away, but when the heater is touching the side of a plastic container, there is the possibility of it melting. If the variables are right, thin plastic, high enough wattage, enough surface space of the heater touching, time it is touching, it can and will melt the plastic. Acrylic has a much higher melting point than most other plastics.

These heaters are not intended to be placed in plastic containers. I use plastic containers as well, and if used with caution, are safe with no worries.

A word to the wise is sufficient.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I was wondering about acrylic, since so many tanks are made out of them.
I looked at the packaging on the latest Fluval heater I bought. It's 50 watts, and I read the fine print (had to get out the 3x glasses) and there's no warning about melting! Since you know the industry, you may want to shoot an email to the manufaturers & see what they say. I'm surprised there's no warning: most products go on & on about not eating them, playing with them, etc.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

louisvillelady said:


> I have worked in plastics my whole life up until now, and now I work at an auto manufacturing company. I have worked at plastic manufacturing companies, where I made parts made out of plastic, and the last ten years have worked in plastic recycling. Plastics have a considerably low melting point. It depends on the type of plastic and thickness. A bucket which is much thicker, will not burn as easily as say the sterlite containers. The underwater aquarium heaters are not intended to touch anything, much less be used in a plastic container. Yes, the water takes the heat away, but when the heater is touching the side of a plastic container, there is the possibility of it melting. If the variables are right, thin plastic, high enough wattage, enough surface space of the heater touching, time it is touching, it can and will melt the plastic. Acrylic has a much higher melting point than most other plastics.
> 
> These heaters are not intended to be placed in plastic containers. I use plastic containers as well, and if used with caution, are safe with no worries.
> 
> A word to the wise is sufficient.


There is no way that the temperature can reach 160F(point of plastic melting) even if it is touching the plastic at the tip (if it was in a rounded tank), especially since the heaters turn on and off from time to time. 

Be that as it may, I will still avoid placing my heaters to touch the container directly.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Just to add on to what Louisville lady said- I have lowered the water level once (and this was a 25 watt heater) below the heater level. Bad idea. I touched it briefly, and I burnt my hand. When I dropped it in the water it sizzled and steamed. They do get very hot. If I was you I would not take the risk and make sure the heater is not touching the plastic. Best not to put your property, fish, and safety at risk.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Just to add on to what Louisville lady said- I have lowered the water level once (and this was a 25 watt heater) below the heater level. Bad idea. I touched it briefly, and I burnt my hand. When I dropped it in the water it sizzled and steamed. They do get very hot. If I was you I would not take the risk and make sure the heater is not touching the plastic. Best not to put your property, fish, and safety at risk.



That heater wasn't in the water properly and that's why it burned you. It needs the water to cool him as much as the water needs it to be heated. You are in no risk if you touch a heater while it's working underwater, and since it is made of plastic, touching any plastic won't affect it (plastic is a good heat conductor). And imagine the temperature reaching 160F to melt it... As I said, the heater won't touch the container but it is just a precaution to a highly unlikely risk.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I've never had an issue with heaters in my critter keepers.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Yes, but there is fish if the heater is in direct contact with the container. And plastic is a poor heat conductor.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

There will be no "Smoke On The Water" playing at their spawn, since the heater won't touch nothing but water.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

LOL!!!
A favorite tune of mine!
I went to Montreux a few years ago. I saw the casino ("Gamblin' house" in the song), saw Freddie Mecury's memorial statue, and toured the castle Chillon. It was awsome.
Wow, talk about OT.
Take the tour someday! You can walk from the train in Montreaux & walk to Chillion castle, passing the Casino & Freddie on the way.


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## soady (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't have a favorite song... Nice choice!  I am more focused on visiting USA sometime in the future, rather than other countries.


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