# Determining Quality



## MrVampire181

Here's a guide for picking bettas for show. I'm including video and pictures 

Okay so in most cases you can't just pick a fish from a local pet store and end up with a show quality betta. Most show bettas come from several generations of hard work by their breeder. If you are considering showing, you already know this. 

So let's start with some basic fin and form ideals. Learn more about each and every tail type you plan on showing. 

Fins:
Symmetry is very important! Uneven fins are not good. For a halfmoon you want to see fins overlapping. Like this male. All show bettas must have a 180 spread. 

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Body:
Body type is often overlooked. A good betta will have a long, thick, torpedo shaped body. A scrawny, wimpy looking betta is not a good show fish. You want a lot of thickness BUT you don't want a short body. Always go for a longer bodied fish with a smooth top line. Here's some examples.

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Here's a good video on determining the quality of your fry at a young age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xep76-EBIM4


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## VictorP

This is a really good thread it should get stickied! Also, are those your betta they're really nice.


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## MrVampire181

All the bettas pictured here are mine  The video is from BasementBettas who ranks #3 in the IBC


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## Mo

Do your mind if I post some more pics?


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## Mo

You can see on both sides of this fish that the fins over lap nicely and he has a nice tight caudal. No excessive branching










This Female is a great example of a broad dorsal, good even coloring, a nice top line and a nice tight caudal










Notice the nice sharp edges.


















this is an example of a fish with a bumpy top line. THIS IS NOT MY FISH


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## VictorP

Also note there is no web reduction on these betta.


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## Sincerely

Here are a few of my personal choices for determining a quality show betta.










You cannot get much better than this for a Doubletail Halfmoon caudal. Nice even lobes that have a strong 180 spread that are clean cut. This photo was taken when he was younger but his finnage has grown in a little more and now they all lay together very nicely to make a arc without any bumps or edges. On a double tail it is common to have a short, stocky body so make sure you breed them to a girl who is long backed. 










Good even symmetry throughout all fins and a strong dorsal base which is half the length of his topline. Notice the thick body and smooth body shape.









This is a new boy I will be receiving soon, I just thought I would put this right next to his picture so you can see the similarities. 










A few things would need to be tidied up such as strengthening the first ray of the dorsal so it is longer and then sharpen the anal point a smidgen more. But he has the ideal caudal, body shape and thickness and his overall symmetry for a asymmetrical HMPK is near perfect.

The girl he will be bred to.










I thought this would be good to put in so you not only see a good show specimen, but know what to get for the partner in order to compliment the stock you have. This girl has an awesome dorsal, wide base and shape with the rays I need to make the dorsal point forward with a longer ray. This picture does not show it well but her caudal is a strong D shape I would prefer sharpers edges, that is where the boy's caudal comes in. Her anal is level and has a good shape to it. Her topline and body thickness could be improved, once again why the boy compliments her like a glove.


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## vilmarisv

There's a lot of ways to go about quality and hard to get a sample of a perfectly formed fish.
Like Sincerely mentioned, the idea is to pick a pair that will compliment eachother in terms of bad and good points and breed to better their form. 
On the fish above shown I can see some weak points but mostly strong ones... you must train your eye to find faults... if you don't find them or are willing to do selective breeding to improve them, then you know you got yourself a good candidate. Don't get blindsided by a fish's great coloring and big fins... it happens a lot.
I'm very picky. Why? Because I find it hard enough work to raise a spawn. I don't want to spend my time and $$ on trying to re-invent the wheel. I want my fish to be of quality so I start with the best fish I can get a hold of. 
I think color is another thing some new breeders don't pay attention to. If you are breeding for show, your fish should be able to fall in a color/fin cathegory. Mixing random color patterns is not good as your fry might not have good color definition. 
And if you need help... then ask! We are more happy to help you pick the perfect fish for your breeding goals!


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## Sincerely

It can be easy to find a good breeding candidate, then finding another fish to compliment the one you have can be the difficult part. Very true about the coloring, as you can tell from the two HMPK I posted they are both Blue/Yellow bi-colors with metallic bodies. I could work with a marble but then I would loose that bi-coloring to marbles. So it is just as important in breeding show fish to find colors/patterns that compliment!


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## Sena Hansler

How about crowntails? I will be breeding but I am skulking to find great examples of halfmoons and crowntails  I will be dealing with quality fish


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## Basement Bettas

These are good HMs










One of mine









One of the finest females I've seen. Should have bought her myself









Not really a showable color.. a GOOD butterfly is a 50/50 split. This one is more 1/3 2/3. But still form wise a nice fish.









I got beat out of this one. Again, good form and great color. I did push the person that beat me out on this fish to $80. 









Outstanding red with the dark red color prefered in the shows. Handles the heavy branching really well.. and has good length on the tail as well as branching.


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## Basement Bettas

vilmarisv said:


> I'm very picky. Why? Because I find it hard enough work to raise a spawn. I don't want to spend my time and $$ on trying to re-invent the wheel. I want my fish to be of quality so I start with the best fish I can get a hold of.
> I think color is another thing some new breeders don't pay attention to. If you are breeding for show, your fish should be able to fall in a color/fin cathegory. Mixing random color patterns is not good as your fry might not have good color definition.
> And if you need help... then ask! We are more happy to help you pick the perfect fish for your breeding goals!


I TOTALLY agree here. It is a LOT of work to bring a spawn up to show shape. why do I want to waste my time to supply locals with free fish or my Oscar with treats. And you do have to think the classes. THere are a lot of "pretty" bettas on AB right now that are flat out mutts. Not showable and so mixed genetically you will get inconsistencies for generations. I am still getting pattern and red wash in one of my lines. Came from a solid blue that had that stuff further up the generation pike. Grr!! And a good multi is planned.. not just a haphazard combo of two "pretty" fish. You have to build form.. but you can not get too far off the color or it is difficult to get back and you produce a lot of fish with no purpose.


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## Pixielator

Sena Hansler said:


> How about crowntails? I will be breeding but I am skulking to find great examples of halfmoons and crowntails  I will be dealing with quality fish


I'm also curious as to what makes a good crowntail. I'd like to breed these, as well as half moons, maybe HMPKs, and maybe DTs. It seems hard to find a good crowntail. So far all of them that I've seen for sale either have curly rays or inconsistent distances between rays, or both. I'm assuming those are bad qualities for show. But what are the good qualities that I should look for? Less rays or more? A smaller amount of rays that are spread further apart? Or a larger amount of rays that are closer together? Any info on crowntails besides what I've asked would be appreciated too.


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## vilmarisv

There's 3 different types of CTs in the IBC handbook (crossed, double, single) so the ones you are looking at might fall into one of those.
Straight rays are very hard to keep on CTs as the water quality plays a huge role. You might want to first try to keep CTs with straight rays before attempting breeding as your water might ruin any chances of you ever producing a showable CT.


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## Pixielator

vilmarisv said:


> There's 3 different types of CTs in the IBC handbook (crossed, double, single) so the ones you are looking at might fall into one of those.
> Straight rays are very hard to keep on CTs as the water quality plays a huge role. You might want to first try to keep CTs with straight rays before attempting breeding as your water might ruin any chances of you ever producing a showable CT.


Thanks for the advice, I'll do that. I have one right now with straight rays. But the person I got him from had him in water that looked a bit dirty when I came to get him, so maybe he's just a hardy individual?


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## Pixielator

I looked at him more closely today. Some of his rays are slightly curved.


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## ClassicCharm

This is a fantastic thread! I have absolutely no intention of showing- my little ones are pet-store bought- but it's really helpful to know what conformation one should be looking for when trying to purchase a good quality fish, no matter what its intended purpose. Is there any relation between good conformation and increased health/ longevity? 

Thanks guys! Keep it up!


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## dramaqueen

That is an interesting question. I'd like to know the answer, too.


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## tpocicat

Since people breeding for show quality fish take extra special care of them, IMO I'd say yes, but I don't know if any studies have been done.


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## ClassicCharm

What I mean is, *in theory*, if you took equally terrible care of both a poor-quality fish and a high-quality fish, which one would thrive better? Or is there a difference?


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## marktrc

Maybe too much inbreeding might make the nicer bettas weaker. Like how some pure bred dogs don't live as long as mixed breeds?


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## Basement Bettas

What I mean is, *in theory*, if you took equally terrible care of both a poor-quality fish and a high-quality fish, which one would thrive better? Or is there a difference?

A HM will get fins chewd up quicker than a plakat.. and is open for more attack from bacteria with the fin rot. But these being fish it does not take much in poor water quility to kill either quick. Ammonia and nitrItes will kill like a nuclear bomb will kill the wealthy and the poor equally. I feel a lot of line breeding takes some of the sturdiness out of the fish like you see in dogs. I remember when collies and afghans were stout.. not the 2x4's you see on legs these days. Same with fish. I like to run parallell lines so I don't do too much line breeding yet keep the genetics. Not sure they last longer or are healthier.. just have more mass to them. Line breeding tends towards pencil skinny fish.


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## TheShadyBird

Parallel lines?


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## Pilot00

TheShadyBird said:


> Parallel lines?


Probably two breeding pairs as a start and then crossing their offspring to avoid inbreeding and the genetic deficiencies it will produce over time.

To answer the question about which is healthier: In theory none. Both DNA wise are the same in regards to structure. The information on how long a fin is or what colours are they plays absolutely no role in its health.
However there are other factors such as skeletal structure that an inexperienced person might not take into account. Yet though, even that might be an accident of birth so to speak and might not be an inherited genetic condition or might relate to conditions external of the fish's upbringing (ie some fish that are bought bent and when nursed turn straight again: Check the broken heart thread to see what i write of).

To sum it up: Both show and 'random bred' fish are genetically predisposed the same in regards to health / hardiness. The only difference is their upbringing and looks. Most of the time a show betta will be healthier due to it being a prized fish and considered valuable and kept in pristine conditions and a healthier diet whereas mass bred bettas will be kept to a minimum of requirements until sold.

There are two questions that arise though which have no definite answer at least for the time being:

1)From a marine biologist friend of mine i know that fish can be 'safely' inbred for around 4-6 generations. If that limit is accurate and is been exceeded what happens to subsequent inbred generations in regards to their DNA, health and structure?

2)Given the fact that nature has a way of adapting and evolving species according to their environmental conditions what would the differences of the species been, if we had two parallel lines of betta living in different conditions? One a show line kept into optimum conditions and one of random bred kept at minimum? My guess would be that the show ones will become more beautiful yet more docile and eventually will have weaker immune systems due to not facing extremes in their environment yet with a longer lifespan (as long as they are kept comfy). On the other hand the random bred will be a haphazard and quite possibly faint colouring due to lack of quality food and conditions, leading them to become hardier and more accepting on a wide variety of conditions, been harder to succumbing to decease and quite possibly breed a survival instinct that can be translated as aggression. 

Unfortunately all the above is an 'educated (of shorts) speculation' of possibilities since I do not posses the facilities to go into such a research.

However it would make an excellent idea for a PHD


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## Coppermoon

vilmarisv said:


> There's 3 different types of CTs in the IBC handbook (crossed, double, single) so the ones you are looking at might fall into one of those.
> Straight rays are very hard to keep on CTs as the water quality plays a huge role. You might want to first try to keep CTs with straight rays before attempting breeding as your water might ruin any chances of you ever producing a showable CT.


Well said!!! I can't do CT because of my water...


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## TheShadyBird

@ Pilot00

Such a well written and thoughtful response!


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## Pilot00

Thank you! I knew my passion about biology would somehow be useful. Too bad i discovered said passion too late to become a biologist myself.


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## vilmarisv

Coppermoon said:


> Well said!!! I can't do CT because of my water...


Thanks, Lori.
I cant keep them for the same reason.


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## Pilot00

Ive been hearing that CT's have problems with the water but i don't know the specifics, if i can hijack the thread for a couple replies (with the op's permission ofc), does anyone care to fill me in?


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## Mo

Hard water causes issues with the rays. It would effect there ability to show. Broken rays, damage fins, etc. will be disqualified in a show, since hard water causes Severe curling on the rays there's no point in showing and breeding them if you have hard water and don't do anything about it


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## dramaqueen

What's the water like in Texas? Lol


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## purplemuffin

Depends on where. Down south it's soft, in central where I live it's HARD water! Tastier but..our crown tails hate it!


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## Alcemistnv

ewww I don't like hard water xD


Ithink this might have been asked elsewhere, but what type of betta is the best option for starting out? Especially if you're hoping for decent quality?


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## Basement Bettas

dramaqueen said:


> What's the water like in Texas? Lol


SUCKS - Hard.. high gh and kh. And something in my water.. maybe the pipes of this old place I live.. gave me failed spawns or fry that never got free swimming. After losing 12 spawns I went to all RO and have not had water problems. I do add minerals back in and have my kh=6-7, gh 3-4 and the ph runs 7-7.2. I also add mico nutrients. TDS runs about 160-170. I have just what I need in it, nothing more. IF I add salt.. I know what I'm adding in relation to everything else.


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## Basement Bettas

Alcemistnv said:


> Ithink this might have been asked elsewhere, but what type of betta is the best option for starting out? Especially if you're hoping for decent quality?


Depends on what you like and what your goal. Pet or breeding for shows.


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## dramaqueen

I'll be living in the Killeen area. I hope the water is suitable for bettas.


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