# my male is lethargic and acting weird



## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

yesterday my male was just fine..now he sits at the bottom with his fins opened.he was actually leaning to the side on his right pectoral fin.all his fins are spread out so he isnt clamped.no signs of any damage though several days he had an incident where he jumped out his tank and my hands several time landing on carpet and a shoe box.but that was about 3 or 4 days ago and he was fine up until today..

it looks like he might be a little over fed but no signs of swim bladder disease.he will not eat today either.so today will be his fasting day.i move the cup i put him in for now,he will move around a little.

his scales are fin.everything looks fine other than his odd behavior today..

rite now i house him in a 1 gallon temp tank until i set up the other tanks the way i want.doing so re arranging..

not heated,not filtered.

fake plant that i leave floating and some small little decor.

water changes about every other day 100%

i feed him FD Bloodworms.and sometimes betta flakes if they are on my finger from feeding other fish.

he did loose a lot of finage due to my rosy reds in my 10 gallon i had him in for about a week.but that was 2 weeks ago almost.

any ideas?i havent treated him for anything bcuz i dont know what it is.he is in a betta cup rite now to make it easier for him to get to the surface and me keep an eye on him..


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

How warm is the water? To me the symptoms seem to be from cold.


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

Are you sure he wasn't just resting? My boy Psych is a HM and he likes to sit at the bottom with his fins all spread out and since he's got such large finnage he sometimes leans over.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

the temp is between 76-79..my apartment doesnt get very cool this time of year..

he is still at the bottom.just sitting there.put a piece of food in.never touched it.fin still open.abdomen is swollen as if he is over feed.but when i think bout it.i dont feed him enough to really be over feed...though i havent seen any waste..im starting to think maybe a blockage..he has been in the keeper cup for about 24 hours.

he swims around at the bottom sometimes as if he wants something new to see or just wants to arrange himself again.

i dont have any epsom salt.i do have AQ salt.i thought of disolving some,putting him back in the 1 gallon hospital tank.and putting the salt in there.but was waiting to see if any changes would happen if i didnt feed him for 24 hours.

still the only symptoms i see is a bloated abdomen and he is lethargic for the most part.and not eating or producing waste.

color,fins(other than what was torn off from my fish),scales,everything else looks fine.


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## kirby13580 (Jul 3, 2010)

If you can, you can make it hotter. Try that out!


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

im actually not able to adjust the temp.my window unit its turned off and the only a/c running i the apartment.which is not good.even with it running of high the temp gets no lower than 80 during the summer in here.my dad wont let it stay off too long.

he and 1 of my girls have been fine without a heater for a while.i actually had the door closed last night and kept it around 78 in here.my dad thinks he is constipated..

he has no waste at all in that cup for 24 hours.yet he is bloated.


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## kirby13580 (Jul 3, 2010)

any pics???


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

If he is bloated, you might try Epsom salt or fast him.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sometimes the slime coat can be damage and this will allow pathogens to infect him...i would start aquarium salt 1 tsp/gall. And if you have stress coat you can add it in. Stress coat will replenish his slime coat.

Pre mix 1tsp/gall of the aq salt in one gall jug for the right dosage. Do daily 100% water changes. Use for 10 days. 

Also keep eye on him and make sure he is not bloated since you mentioned that you might overfeed him. Because if this is the reason, then you don't need aq salt. But again usually if his behavior due to that ,then he would be bloated.

EDIT: tpocicat didn't see your post. Yes if he is bloated then Epsom salt


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

they arent clear..my phone doesnt have focus on it.


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## kirby13580 (Jul 3, 2010)

looked like mine... he was too cold and died. this is trial and error...


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

anything other than epsom salt that can be used that is equivalent?i think he is constipated or has a blockage of some sort.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't think it anything other then epsom salt you can use.Epsom salt usually you can find in any pharmacy (in my town), not at pet store. But if you really think he is constipated and don't have epsom salt then fasting can help. Also people on the forum recommending frozen daphnia. It you have access to it. I think you can buy it in the pet store it will help to clean out the digestive system ....

It difficult to say if he is bloated. May be a little bit ? And if you saying he swims on one side then it might be it, not sure.

Epsom salt usually helps with problem like that though + frozen dalphia really good.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

im down to my last dollar.its all in pennies.my job has not called me to start working so unfortunately no income and no1 to borrow money from.its y im asking for an alternative...

he swims normal.but is leaning on his side when sitting at the bottom..he hasnt ate anything since the day before yesterday.he swims around for a short period,mostly to go up and get air.then kinda looks around and lounges again.

i want to try to go to the store.but its too hot..i have to walk and the only store i can afford the salt at is dollar tree which is a mile away.ill have to try to go tonight and see if i can get any..i dont know if another store here biglots sells epsom salt and how much it is.its closer to me.but too hot to walk over there and not have it or cant afford it.i looked on the website and seen nothing.but had that happen before.my phone is shut off as well..hmmm


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## MSG (May 8, 2012)

*E Salts are $.50/lb*

Just have to look around when it comes to E Salt. Any major city in the US has a DT store. 

My male does the same thing. His belly was larger than yours & I relocated him to the guppy tank & stopped feeding him pellets. 

Since he doesn't swim around much, I don't feed him pellets. Since I switched his diet, his belly is nice and slim. 

Also you should do 1/2 sized tests on your tank water every couple days.

I haven't done ANY water changes/siphoning to my tanks for I believe 2 weeks now and the ammonia, nitrites, etc... are all 0. 

There's also NOTHING in the 1.5G tank other than 1 betta who's super aggressive. 

I plan on some water changes & siphoning before Friday, but the tests are telling me 0.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

he is in a 1 gallon..i change his water frequently..

i have 1 of my girls in a 2 gallon.she is very aggressive and separated her.but she loves it in there.then i have another female in a 20 gallon hex by herself.

my male was in my 10 gallon but the rosy reds in there nipped his fins pretty badly.he has been in the 1 gallon for a while where he was before.once im working i plan on getting another 10 gallon and will divide it for the females and then put the male in the 20 gallon hopefully.

my 10 gallon has 0 ammonia and ntirite as of a test done yesterday,and 5 nitrate...its been like that sicne the end of the cycle the first week of this month.it now houses 4 rosy red minnows,2 mystery snails and 2 otos.i have major algae.the snail have done a great job but there is still plenty to go around.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

He is bloated. Don't feed him for two days and see if he gets better.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

i shall do that and see what happens.i know i still need to get the E salt no matter what and have it on hand.ill see how he feels tomorrow


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i can mail your $5 in the envelope for the salt. But i am getting confused if he is lethargic because he has infection since he jumped out a few times and now you saying that his fins are nipped or he is bloated and that is the problem. But epsom salt also has antibacterial effect though. 

I am wondering if it possible to mix aq salt and epsom salt. I think i read it before that you can. Any one has idea?


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## MSG (May 8, 2012)

No, everything I've heard is DON'T use E & AQ salt at the same time. 

Check the forums. Revise your search. I just bought a 2lb box of E salt and I've going to use it on myself FIRST.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

lol i know it for human use. You can make a bath. Have fun!!! 
I just text ed someone. I really remember that i read that in some cases you can mix it. Like in this case betta jumped out and might have infections since he could damage slime coat so aq salt would help. And constipated which es will help. So i will wait when that person response to me and see....


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> i can mail your $5 in the envelope for the salt. But i am getting confused if he is lethargic because he has infection since he jumped out a few times and now you saying that his fins are nipped or he is bloated and that is the problem. But epsom salt also has antibacterial effect though.
> 
> I am wondering if it possible to mix aq salt and epsom salt. I think i read it before that you can. Any one has idea?


you dont have to do that.im sure i can get the money..id fell awkward..he didnt sustain any injuries when he fell out.well other than a few missing scales..he was fine for a few days.acting normal.then all of a sudden i noticed his stomach was bloated and he was just laying at the bottom trying to hide.rite now his head is under a small dolphin decor that in there.i covered part of the tank with a rag to make it dark and for him to hide easier.

the fins were nipped by the other fish in my 10 gallon which was over a week ago,he was in there for just a few days and i said enough is enough.put him back in the 1 gallon until i can afford to get a divider for my 10 gallon.put my 2 girls in there and put my rosy reds in my 20 gallon and the male in my 2 gallon that currently houses my female donna.i was going to make a divider but cant afford the material and figured when i do start working i can afford to just buy a divider..but still no luck about my job yet.my dad and i r suppose to have started there last monday but there was a delay.we emailed the woman.still no reply..

my male(keiichi) sits at the bottom hiding,wont eat,and is bloated.he come up for air with no problem and will swim around a little to find a place to relax at.the day before he started doing this.i didnt notice any swelling in his abdomen.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sometimes bloating also can mean internal parasites. I hope it not it. But don't share anything between him and other fish just in case.

I don't think though because betta usually looks very bad with internal parasites. Symptoms can be bloating, grayish belly, white stringy or clear poo.

How often and how much you was changing your 10 gall?


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> Sometimes bloating also can mean internal parasites. I hope it not it. But don't share anything between him and other fish just in case.
> 
> I don't think though because betta usually looks very bad with internal parasites. Symptoms can be bloating, grayish belly, white stringy or clear poo.
> 
> How often and how much you was changing your 10 gall?


i was also considering internal parasites.i know i need to hurry and do something besides just sitting back and waiting...he is actually not in the 10 gallon,but i change the water about every 2 weeks.now that it is stocked more ill be changing about 30% once a week..i have 4 rosy red minnows,2 mystery snails and 2 oto's in it.and i actually have a DIY moving bed filter.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

For 10 gall with all that fish recommendation really 50 % weekly with gravel siphoning and filter media swish/wash in the old water WITH the water change.

Watch for the poo. 
Epsom salt big help. I hope he don't have internal parasites. With that you can treat only with medications and epsom salt. Epsom salt along will not help.
And internal parasites easier to feed when fish is eating so it can pass them trough the poop.
Sorry i guess just keep eye on him. See if his bloating will go away. If it not go away then something is going on. Or if he will get more bloated without eating then there is possibilities to have internal....

Also be careful with other fish i would think internal parasites contagious don't put new fish in the same tank he was in.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

the cycle had jut finished the first week of this month.ive done 2 water changes so far.last 1 was yesterday with a good gravel cleaning.i use a website aqadvisor.com to get an idea on what my tank can handle and it gives tips on how to clean and the water temp etc..i do need to change more water.

oh yes i forgot to mention he isnt pooing.2 days and nothing.theres no gravel in there so i can see the bottom.

only medication i have is bettafix.im going to gather all my pennies in the morning and roll them up and see if i have enough to get some E salt.i know i dont have enough for any other medication.

ive been checking on him constantly.seems everything is the same.he is now at the top of the tank sitting on top of a plastic plant i let float in there.

all 3 of my bettas are in separate tanks.each alone.to make sure they dont get sick or anything.i know 1 of my females has what looks almost like diatoms on her bottom and tail fin.close to the body.it seems to stay there.but she is normal.its been there for weeks..


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

how big the other 3 tanks?So i can give you advice on water changes.

sorry but bettafix will not help. Don't even use it.
I did text someone else to check on your post and see what she think.
I think now you have to wait and see if his belly will look better and poo..How long he didn't poop?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Prodrumernate, do you have any oak trees around where you are? If you do, go grab some dried oak leaves. Rinse them off under tap water and then crumble them up into his tank until the water turns a weak tea color. 

At this point, I'm more concerned about the bloating. Anhel is definitely right that jumping out can cause him to lose slime coat, which in turn can lead to pathogens taking over and causing illness. I'm thinking he may have been so stressed by the rosy reds that his immune system was compromised and perhaps some internal parasites snuck in; since rosy reds are considered feeder fish, they aren't kept in the best of conditions and often carry parasites. Even after all this time that you've had them, they may still have had some in their system, which he may now have. 

I'm not really sure how many aquarium stores use epsom salt on a regular basis but it would be worth it to ask at one, if you can, for a cupful. Otherwise, I'm more than willing to mail you some if you PM me your details. I have plenty and since you're in AZ, it should get there fairly quickly. I understand money troubles so don't worry or feel bad, you're doing all you can.

EDIT: Your female may have some excess slime coat hanging off. If she's acting normal, just keep an eye on her.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> how big the other 3 tanks?So i can give you advice on water changes.
> 
> sorry but bettafix will not help. Don't even use it.
> I did text someone else to check on your post and see what she think.
> I think now you have to wait and see if his belly will look better and poo..How long he didn't poop?


a 10 gallon,20 gallon and a 2 gallon..2o gallon was just seeded a few days ago..

i dont use bettafix much,i know it bad for the labyrinth organ...

he hasnt pooed in about 2 days roughly.yesterday and today nothing.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Prodrumernate, do you have any oak trees around where you are? If you do, go grab some dried oak leaves. Rinse them off under tap water and then crumble them up into his tank until the water turns a weak tea color.
> 
> At this point, I'm more concerned about the bloating. Anhel is definitely right that jumping out can cause him to lose slime coat, which in turn can lead to pathogens taking over and causing illness. I'm thinking he may have been so stressed by the rosy reds that his immune system was compromised and perhaps some internal parasites snuck in; since rosy reds are considered feeder fish, they aren't kept in the best of conditions and often carry parasites. Even after all this time that you've had them, they may still have had some in their system, which he may now have.
> 
> ...


i have not seen any oak trees around me..ive been keeping an eye out.but with this heat i dont stay out long.it does make sense how his behavior has been.and being stressed out from being with the fin biting rosy reds.

when he jumped.he fell quiet a distance for a fish hi size.the top of the bar is about 3 and a half feet off the ground.the carpet is fairly thick.but everytime i picked him back up,he jumped out my hands.so he fell 3 or 4 times total from the top of the bar and even landing on a shoe box.i finally cupped him in my hands and put him back in the water.and kept an eye on him.i can see him from the end of my bed where im at 24/7..i can take pictures of the setup where he is and where he fell at.including the shoe box and the carpet.

i did worry about parasites.i know they arent taken well care of.i did a month of research before getting them.and now learn u can not put them with any bright colored or long finned fish.i wanted to contact admin about having a sticky about that and some other little info that might help.but never did..

i do need to be able to buy a few more things for my fish like meds and E salt.i have plenty of food.and i do worry bout if 1 gets very sick im left in the dust basically.i would have been paid already if not a delay in my work.i had to pass on some free 10 gallon tanks that were complete on craigslist due to money for driving there.but in time ill get it  i just feel awkward and like i have to pay back any1 who does things like that for me.im honestly not use to it.

i may try to take some pictures of my tanks and setups to post in here to help give a visual on everything.

that would make sense about the brown on my females fins.shes as happy as can be.like nothing is wrong.several weeks its been like that and not really much of a change


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hey, we're a happy community here and we help one another out. If you need epsom salt, don't hesitate to ask.  Think of it this way, it's for Keiichi. 

I've had my females jump from their tank and fall roughly the same distance onto a hard floor. Overall, I think it's the damage to their slime coat that does the most harm but if they happened to land just wrong, it could damage their swimbladder as well. But you said that was several days ago, right? If he had any harm, it would have shown up probably that same night he fell. My guess is it just stressed him out and that caused his immune system to just crash. Kind of like how we humans tend to get really sick during final exams or during extremely stressful periods in our lives.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Hey, we're a happy community here and we help one another out. If you need epsom salt, don't hesitate to ask.  Think of it this way, it's for Keiichi.
> 
> I've had my females jump from their tank and fall roughly the same distance onto a hard floor. Overall, I think it's the damage to their slime coat that does the most harm but if they happened to land just wrong, it could damage their swimbladder as well. But you said that was several days ago, right? If he had any harm, it would have shown up probably that same night he fell. My guess is it just stressed him out and that caused his immune system to just crash. Kind of like how we humans tend to get really sick during final exams or during extremely stressful periods in our lives.


if he isnt better tomorrow.then i may go ahead and give my address.i do need to think more about him than how i would feel.and i know for sure if i had the money id being doing the same thing for some1 else.

but i want to do whats best for him and if yall think i need to get the stuff like the E salt and some meds.which ever yall recommend.then i should do it especially being offered the help.my dad said i shouldnt turn it down and suggested i even take pictures of the things i buy just to show i spent any money sent on them.my dad use to buy things for my fish.but after he lost his job.we get by on unemployment.which isnt enough for things here.but its ok.now that we have a 3rd person here makes it a little tougher  

i will go with what yall tell me.do what it take to help him recover.not to be on the negative side but id hate to get the help and he actually not make it.just saying.i know he will recover.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's okay, prodrumernate. I understand that times are super tough in this economy and it's not your dad's or yours that money is tight. We trust you. And yes, we will think positively that Keiichi will make it but if he doesn't (heaven forbid) at least we know we tried. You're doing the best you can so keep your chin up, bud.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

thank you..i really appreciate it.we come through a long ways and where we r at now isnt much.but surly better than our situation before.i had to leave my last job due to some problems and loosing my hours.management was replaced.more than half the employees either left or was fired.im glad there are people out there that are willing to help like this and care as much as i do about it.

i told my neighbors my fish was sick.they commented back."how do u know if a fish is sick.""just let them die and get a new one" i got mad and almost walked out.but i said its not worth getting in an argument about.and they were drunk..i wanted to give away my rosy reds.but im too attached.feeder fish or not.they are still pets.and ive watched them grow and take care of them.

oh some thing i wanted to ask earlier is...i keep water in 1 gallon jugs so i have them ready for my water changes..i would add water conditioner to it..due to my budget.im nearly out of water conditioner,,and i know i can let the jugs sit a few days and it will rid of chlorine etc in the water..

but with all the water changes i now need to do.i dont have enough jugs and dont have room to keep more.my only option is to use tap water straight into the tanks.

would it be "safe" to add the tap water and then add the water conditioner into my tanks?or adding like 1 gallon of tap water without the conditioner to help save on it until im back on my feet?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, I think if you mix it with water that HAS been conditioned you can probably get away with it. It's not ideal but keep an eye on them to make sure no one is showing signs of distress. I can send you a bottle of Prime too, it's great because it is super concentrated so a little goes a long way. Two drops per gallon of new water. Great stuff. 

Rosy reds do have a lot of personality because they're such busy, active fish. It's a shame people use them as feeders.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

you really are helping me out.i thought of a while back when i was working to go out and buy a complete 10 gallon to give away as a starter kit for some1 who cant exactly afford it but is passionate about fish..i do understand its hard like u said in this economy..i even thought of mailing some1 on here some old spare stuff i have to help them.but couldnt afford the shipping haha..hmm i really could use the stuff for my fish..my mind is going back and forth about what to do.

yes u r rite about the rosy reds.i read online about that but now get to witness its for myself.they are very fun to keep.im thinking about transferring them to my 20 gallon,taking the female out if it and getting a divider once im working and putting my females in the 10 gallon divided.and placing keiichi in the 2 gallon for now until i can get him his own 10 gallon.

once im working and have stocked up on things for my fish and have them all in cycled tanks.ill be going to the philippines after saving the money to meet my girl and her family and get married.my dad just brought his wife back from there.ive been wanting to go for years.have a new girl and we have been in a relationship over a year.we are ready  but i will teach my dad how to feed my fish and change the water.and with all them in cycled tanks.it wont be much of a hassle for him.

plus ill add a few more rosy reds into the 20 gallon.its cycling rite now.i added some seeded filter and straw material to it.not sure how long it will take.but my 1 of my female piranha is in there to provide the ammonia.and she sure does love all that space.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

With only one fish in there, it could take quite a while to cycle that 20gal. Hmm. I'd say divide it and put Donna on the other side but hex tanks are hard to divide. :/

I'm more than happy to help anyone and their fish who need something. I know there are plenty of other people who would do the same, just like you want to do.  Go ahead and PM me because I'm going to the post office early tomorrow morning to mail some fish, so I can get a care package for your fish ready.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

i did want to divide the 20 gal hex,but thought it would be easier and a lot better to divide the 10 gallon and just put my 2 females in there.and then the rosy reds and snails and oto's in my 20 gallon giving more space.and i need atleast 1 more rosy red with a minimum of 5 as recommended.but my 10 gallon is at 101% stocking capacity.so im not able to add anymore due to the space.my filter can surly handle it.but the filter on my 20 gal hex is a DIY power head filter and moving bed filter.

i can definitely use the help and probably shouldnt pass up the opportunity giving to me.so ill go ahead and pm u 

maybe i should put my rosy reds in the 20 gal and just put my female in the 10 gal and allow them to cycle my tank thought they cycled the 10.they did perfectly fine.just dont want to stress them out too much


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I just have to say this thread really made my day - though I'm very sorry your fish are ill. 

I know first hand that it takes a LOT of courage to accept help when you're an independent, proud kind of person. But sometimes it's really for the best, and think of it this way - accepting help gives others a chance to feel good. =)

I hope your fish heal up quickly, and that things improve for you also very soon.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Aus said:


> I just have to say this thread really made my day - though I'm very sorry your fish are ill.
> 
> I know first hand that it takes a LOT of courage to accept help when you're an independent, proud kind of person. But sometimes it's really for the best, and think of it this way - accepting help gives others a chance to feel good. =)
> 
> I hope your fish heal up quickly, and that things improve for you also very soon.


im glad it made ur day..makes me even more happy.never thought this would happen when posting this.for many it may not seem much.but for me its like winning the lottery..my own family wouldnt even help in past problems.not going to make a sob story.but have had some hard times(no drugs or alcohol) but its not easy.and this really lifts me up and shows that good people come when u least expect it and helps u carry on.

yes u r rite..i had my dad helping me to finally say do it..he understands and knows first hand that help is needed no matter who u r.and he is like me.he cares about my fish as i do.he is the 1 who bought my API test kit,some meds,some of my fish.things like that...but with our situation.cant afford the gas to go rite down the street to get things.so i walk.which is good.i need it hehe..

and sorry i type so much every1..im like this especially when excited.i am an emotional guy.

thank you..i really appreciate it.i know they will get better.especially with all the help im getting..hopefully soon i can pay it forward.this really has lifted my spirits.especially ive been a little down lately.

thank you everyone.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The package is shipped and should be with you by Friday at the very latest with Prime, epsom salt, and Stress Coat. How is Keiichi doing? Is he hanging in there?


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> The package is shipped and should be with you by Friday at the very latest with Prime, epsom salt, and Stress Coat. How is Keiichi doing? Is he hanging in there?


thank you very much Sakura..im sure ill be home so ill be waiting for it..got an email back about the job and the woman is waiting for a reply from homedepot.still nothing yet.so i doubt we will start this week..

Keiichi is still the same.staying at the bottom.not eating.i dont see any waste.still bloated but hasnt gotten any worse.i have him partially covered to help block out light and distractions.but once side opened so i can see him from my bed.i see him rite now just laying at the bottom.

i wish there was something i could do for him but i dont even know exactly whats wrong  poor guy..only if i was a fish whisperer.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I just want to give instructions on epsom salt. As soon as you get epsom salt you can use it. You already have him in the hospital tank -1 gall. You will need to make 100% daily water changes. I think it also good idea to lower the water so it easier for him to swim up to the surface. 

You need to pre mix epsom salt in one gall jug. If you don't have one gall from spring water or even from milk (wash it thoroughly), then you can just dissolve it in the cup or container that you have. And do daily water changes. 

I would think you can start with 2tsp/gall. unless Sakura will recommend another dose. I actually know someone who treated internal parasites with 3 tsp/gall and medications. But fish was eating though. It always easier to treat it when fish is eating, since they pass them with poop 

One more time i think i wrote it before don't share anything with him and other fish. I think it contagious.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

i also have a smaller bowl on hand.about a half gallon if i need and its my secondary backup hospital tank just in case more than 1 fish i sick.

i need to save the instructions.if Sakura says anything different then ill add it to the list.

he still isnt passing waste.the bottom of the tank is clean.he seems a little more lethargic now than before..

since he isnt passing waste.i read online in extreme cases he may need a little help by me gently squeezing to help it pass through.but i dont know how much pressure to add and im worried ill cause more damage  i want him to die of old age not me hurting him or anything like that.

i may try changing his water twice a day if possible to help keep it extra clean until he starts recovering.

the stuff i use in the tanks are only for that.i mean the hospital tank has 2 decor and 1 plastic floating plant.it always goes to it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'd agree with Anhel on starting at 2 tsp per gallon. If he hasn't passed any waste or parasites after a few days with that, we can up him to 3 tsps. 

Continue to try to get him to eat if you can. If you happen to have garlic in the house, crush a clove and mix it with a bit of tank water. Then soak his food in that mixture for a few minutes before feeding.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

i have tons of garlic..my step mom is from the philippines.they eat garlic with everything....

ok im starting to get more worried.his stomach is more bloated..and heres whats really worrying me.he is showing signs of dropsy..the scales on his stomach is pine coning..the rest of his scales seem to be showing a very very very slight sign of pine coning but im not too sure..

i will take a few pictures and try to upload them ASAP ,i dont know if his stomach is pine coning because it is so swollen now or if he is at the starting stage of dropsy...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he is blocked up pretty bad or has internal parasites, it could cause a secondary bacterial infection. Try to get as much garlic down him as you can. It strengthens the immune system. Poor Keiichi. Hang in there, Nate.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

how exactly should i prepare and administer the garlic to him?i just checked and we have several garlic cloves.i also have garlic powder as well..

i tried taking pictures but my phone doesnt have focus on it.everything is blurry.i may try to get my digital camera to work but it was broken and was hard to use.

what is a step by step way to prepare and to give him the garlic?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Crush it up into a pretty good mash. Then add just a bit of water from his tank and mix it so the water gets good and garlicky. Then dip some of his food into that and let it soak for a minute or so. You may need to use a toothpick or something to get the food out and try to feed him. You can also try to feed him a very very tiny piece of garlic as well. Some bettas will eat it, some won't.

As long as the pineconing hasn't progressed to the rest of his body and is staying just at the stomach, that's promising.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

i will try that now..i may put him in a cup to do it so i can also change his water.and i may take out all deco and just leave the floating plant in there to take out anything that can possibly cause any more harm..he goes up for air every few minutes.he is breathing a little harder than normal i believe.i have his tank wrapped with a towel still and only the back facing me opened though every1 walks by there.i wish i could put him closer to my bed so he wouldnt see any1 walking by and be around my computers that will help keep the water warm..

from what i can see its just his stomach pine coning.the rest of his body isnt as smooth as my females.but its hard to tell if an pine coning is going on for sure.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Look at him from above. You'll be able to tell if all of him is pineconing or not.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

thats where im looking from.i can see it in his abdomen but the rest of his body isnt exactly smooth like the females.but isnt pine coning like his abdomen.

i just now prepared some water for a water change.going to give the water conditioner a couple more minutes and then ill change his water.and feed him in the cup if he will eat.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay. I hope he hangs in there until help arrives in the mail. You're doing a good job with him so keep up the good work.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

he isnt eating.i tried FD bloodworms and flakes..as well as a small piece of garlic.dropped rite in front of him.he wont touch it..

thank you..i think his pine coning has somewhat gone down just a little.its not as bad as it was earlier.but i can still see it..

im not sure what else to do rite now.he is swimming a little more to change places.and to go up for air.but stays at the bottom.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

All we can really do is wait. You've got him warm and cozy and you can lower the water level all the way down to an inch or so above him if necessary for him to breathe. It's up to him to rally through until help arrives. Just keep doing what you do for him.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

thank you Sakura..hopefully ill wake up to see better results.i think ill try to get some sleep so i can wake up early and try to get him to eat.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and Keiichi. Night!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry guys i am going to the store today at my break to see med's and i will post. Good luck.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

thank you both.yall been a great health.quick update also..he is still bloated,scales dont seem to be pine coning as much as yesterday.still lethargic and still wont eat.he is still hanging in there


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I just mailed General Cure API.
I also mailed Tetraciclin API for gram negative and gram positive bacteria. I did use Tetracicline before to treat other people bettas long time ago but i used it in combination with another medication. I never use Tetracycling along . It just bought that med's and sorry i took a few packets from Tetracycling box. I think it about 10 packets inside. 
I also had Indian Almond leaves . I think i have them for 2 years now. But they not expired so i mailed a pack (i think it 3 large leaves in side). If you going to use them rinse them first.
Sorry i didn't use priority mail ....not sure you should receive on saturday i hope it not too late


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> I just mailed General Cure API.
> I also mailed Tetraciclin API for gram negative and gram positive bacteria. I did use Tetracicline before to treat other people bettas long time ago but i used it in combination with another medication. I never use Tetracycling along . It just bought that med's and sorry i took a few packets from Tetracycling box. I think it about 10 packets inside.
> I also had Indian Almond leaves . I think i have them for 2 years now. But they not expired so i mailed a pack (i think it 3 large leaves in side). If you going to use them rinse them first.
> Sorry i didn't use priority mail ....not sure you should receive on saturday i hope it not too late


wow thank you..and its no problem about priority mail.once everything gets here ill follows yours and Sakura's directions and treat him.and i know my girls could use it also.1 of my female still has brown stuff on her fins thats been there for weeks and wont go away.though its not affecting her.she has lost some of her color since she got it.i know i can really use all that...again thank you very much.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I don't think IAL expires since it's already dried. As long as it was kept relatively airtight and not moist, it should be fine.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

i know dried leaves and spice like that last a long time.as u mentioned Sakura as long as it was sealed and no moisture in it it should be perfectly fine.. )


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

he is pine coning...just a little but i can see it when he is at the top of the tank.i tried taking pictures but none were clear and i forgot the reason i dont use my digital camera is bcuz of battery problems with it..but i can see the pine coning just a little.he ate a little bit and swims around when i go up to him and take the hood off...but im worried about the pine coning considering its a sign of dropsy


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Pineconing is a sign of dropsy but it can also happen any time a fish is bloated, such as in tumors or severe constipation. Pineconing can even happen in a localized area of the body if there are skin flukes under it or a wound. 

As long as he ate a little, that's good because it means he's still got some fight in him.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

its good to know that its not just dropsy that can cause it..all hi scales are like that.but its just a little.just enough i can see if i look at him closely,from afar like being at the bottom u cant really tell except on his abdomen..

he is surly eating.not as lethargic as before.even swimming around and then going up top when i go to him like he wants to eat..he seems to be doing a little better but still not out of the woods.u can easily see he is still sick.im now watching for waste.if i dont see any in the morning i may skip another day of feeding to see if anything will pass through.and hopefully ill had the medication and everything for him to help him.once he is healed.im going to take him out and put him in a cup i just bleached and cleaned.then ill soak the hospital tank and decor in about 10% bleach water mixture to sanitize everything.then soak in water for a while.rinse well and put him back in


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sounds good. Yeah, if nothing is coming out it doesn't make sense to put more stuff in. Good.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

prodrumernate said:


> wow thank you..and its no problem about priority mail.once everything gets here ill follows yours and Sakura's directions and treat him.and i know my girls could use it also.1 of my female still has brown stuff on her fins thats been there for weeks and wont go away.though its not affecting her.she has lost some of her color since she got it.i know i can really use all that...again thank you very much.


i missed that...what with the girls? Only one has brown stuff? How is your other girl? Not sure what is the girl has would you able to describe and post the a picture?
I think you wrote that you ordered aquarium salt? May be your girl can benefit from that instead of treating her with medications. I like to try natural remedies first especially if she has it for long time and it don't get worse.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Sounds good. Yeah, if nothing is coming out it doesn't make sense to put more stuff in. Good.


still nothing so ill wait another day..but he is a little more active than normal.just gotta get him to poop..scales still pine coning but u can tell he is still sick.im sure he misses eating though


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> i missed that...what with the girls? Only one has brown stuff? How is your other girl? Not sure what is the girl has would you able to describe and post the a picture?
> I think you wrote that you ordered aquarium salt? May be your girl can benefit from that instead of treating her with medications. I like to try natural remedies first especially if she has it for long time and it don't get worse.


1 of my girls has brown stuff on her bottom fin close to the body and a little on her tail fin close to the body..its been there for a while.its not affecting her other than she lost color in those spots and its brown,when it should be red and purple a with a little blue..

i do have AQ salt here ive had for a few months i bought when ii was working.she is not in my 10 gallon along with my mystery snails and otos.i moved her into there and took my rosy reds out and put them in my 20 gallon to help cycle since i seeded it.

shes happy and very very lively.its y i named her piranha due to how she acts.ill try to get some pictures if she will stay still long enough.ill be using my phone and it doesnt have focus.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

sorry now i remember you mentioned it before. And we thought it excess of the slime coat... Just don't treat her with medications until you know what it is. If it slime coat just hanging you don't need to treat her.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> sorry now i remember you mentioned it before. And we thought it excess of the slime coat... Just don't treat her with medications until you know what it is. If it slime coat just hanging you don't need to treat her.


its ok..i actually forgot myself..i should just let her be?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i would double check and wait for Sakura advice. And picture would help. I just want to make sure it is slime coat and not something else though. Not sure how long it can be there if it really slime coat...


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

here is a couple pictures..i dont know how well u can see..she kept going in and out of her hut and i finally got her attention long enough to get these 2....mostly on her anal fin but is on all except pectoral fins.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I don't see a whole lot on her and she looks good, fins open and active. I'd say keep an eye on her.

Nate, do you think you can get Keiichi to flare? Sometimes getting them really hyper and active can make them poo.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

its at the bottom mostly of her anal fin.it use to be all red but now has that brown on it.

ill try to find a small mirror to put up against his tank.my female was flaring at herself yesterday looking at her reflection off the filter.i was watching her under the filter.ill go check for a small mirror though i dont think i have any


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I don't see a whole lot on her and she looks good, fins open and active. I'd say keep an eye on her.
> 
> Nate, do you think you can get Keiichi to flare? Sometimes getting them really hyper and active can make them poo.


i cant find a mirror but used a cd and put it up against his tank.he wont flare at himself.he just swims around and then relaxes at the bottom.

thank you also Sakura..i just received the package  im so happy.its great.i know i can really use it now.you dont know how much it means to us..my dad also said thank you very much.he was walking around the corner next to our mailbox and seen me taking it out.perfect timing  again thank you very very much.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> sorry now i remember you mentioned it before. And we thought it excess of the slime coat... Just don't treat her with medications until you know what it is. If it slime coat just hanging you don't need to treat her.


i just got ur package in..my dad also wants to thank you.he thanks you and Sakura both and is very happy.im very thankful.i cant say it enough.and hopefully will be able to repay back soon


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

you don't have to repay, i am happy to help  
How is keiichi? Did you start epsom salt? Any poo?
And your girl still the same not changes still eating and active?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wait why both of them saying Tetracycline? One is parasitic right? 
One is for bacterial infection and another for parasites am i right? I did it on my break time which is 30 min i hope i didn't do mistake.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

its just who i am.or i at least pay it forward.just not use to having people do things like that for me  

Keiichi is doing better.i have started the E salt.now is day 2..he has pooped...a lot. the first 1 was weird looking though.like a giant clear bubble with something black inside.it was big,.it finally came off the strand when i scooped him out for a water change.his scales are still pine coning a little.and he is a little lethargic.but a lot better.even my dad notices the difference.and is happy for the help u and Sakura have given me..

he does eat a little.but not much.his bloating is also gone.except maybe just a little little bit.skinny like before.well normal sized abdomen from the top view and just a little on the side view.

he is watching me rite now.this is the time i feed them but i was chatting with my girl.

the pictures above r the same things u sent me just 2 separate pictures bcuz i wasnt sure is 1 i took was clear or not.

1 is general cure anti parasitic and the other is the T.C. Tetracyline for bacterial disease


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

So glad to hear he pooped. Sounds like he was blocked up pretty bad. May have had some swallowed air stuck in him too. That does happen.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i don't know if it looks like parasites? should use antiparasitic medications? I know that if it clear or white stringy like poo or black then it can be parasites?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sounds like some kind of mucous enclosed the poo. The General Cure probably wouldn't hurt him just in case it is parasites.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

hes doing a lot better now.his scales are smoothing back down to normal.good appetite and anxious to eat.swimming around.being a betta  

yes he was blocked up pretty badly.it was like an almost clear bubble with poop in the center..i was going to try to take a couple pix,but when i went to clean his water and transfer to a cup to get a gud pic of it.it was caught in the net and didnt realize it until it was too late...

i shall treat him tomorrow with the General Cure just to be safe as well..im not soaking his decor and everything in bleach and water...its been sitting nearly all day and ill rinse it out tomorrow..then ill do the samething to the 1 gallon hospital tank to be extra safe..

again thank you both very very much.u both saved him..my dad and i both cant thank you enough for all the help.im very excited to see him being himself again.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm just really glad I could help a fish and a friend in need.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

hopefully soon i too can pay it forward and help some1.i dont know how he would be now if not for u 2.it wasnt until i started medicating him did he start to get better.up until then he was just getting worse and worse.atleast now if i ever come across a post like this i know what to say and how to help...its how we learn


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yup. Just by giving advice you can pay it forward.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Give us updates


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

sorry for the late replies..been looking for another job since i havent gotten a phone call from the job i was suppose to start at..so ill be looking unless i hear from homedepot 

i do my best to give advice..some post i have to skip or i will give my little opinion and then refer to some1 who knows more or post to keep it alive and bump it up if i think it need attention still..

update--Keiichi is as happy as can be..scales r flat,eating like a pig and anxious...swims around and watches people as they go by.u wouldnt know anything happened to him...i do need to fine more things for him to put in the 1 gallon for now so he doent get bored.but he is as happy as can be


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Good luck to find a job.
I am glad Keiichi doing better.
And i do the same when i see the post that people don't know how to help i bump it and wait until someone give right advice otherwise i ask for help from other people , how i did with your post


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

thank you.im very happy he is doing well..he couldnt be any better thanks to you 2..i just fount out my neighbor has a betta in a small what looks to be maybe a 1 gallon shallow bowl with tons of gravel..i think ill be stepping in now.i dont like how they have it crowded and so shallow.

u gave advice that helped me and i didnt know.and was correct..and thank you for the luck on the job hunting..my dad is still saying hopefully we start this job asap.he too is looking just incase.but if we both get a job and homedepot finally calls to start.we will leave the other job.i mean at 14 dollars an hour.id surly leave a part time job for it especially doing something i love doing  a well as getting employee benefits from both home depot and delta airlines since its deltas temp service we go thru.i can fly for free.

oh 1 thing i want to ask..betta and mollies can live together correct?a guy on craigslist is giving away a 10 gallon with 9 black mollies.he lives very close to me.in the same cross streets.and hopefully he still has it.i want to put Keiichi in there with them but not sure if they are compatible.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

hey sorry for the mollies i don't know if they compatible with bettas i never has any other fish before ....so i would wait until someone else will give you advice ...

As for your neighbor give him advice on water changes and if he can take some of the gravel out so betta can have more place to swim. Usually people recommending 1-50% and 1-100% weekly but if he has just 1 gall and a lot of gravel i would do even more water changes.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ill also be doing some research to find out as well 

once i see him i will talk to him.i keep thinking about the betta and dont know what condition its in.i know they have no idea how to take care of it.i almost want to ask if i can buy it from them.even paying twice as much just to get it away from them and into a better home..with my 1 gallon i change the water about every other day,i watch to see how much waste is at the bottom to get an idea rather or not i can wait 1 more day.their water didnt look all too clean which concerns me..


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

good luck


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i guess you can try to ask him. Just don't say any negative stuff- like his water not clean or something like that, because he will get defensive. And i think if he don't want him he will probably glad to give him to you without even money.
If he will tell you that he want him i guess you can just ask him about water changes. Like you just curious.....
Give update


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Mollies would be compatible with bettas but you'd want to keep an eye on them because mollies can be aggressive little butts.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

sunlight said:


> good luck


thank you


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> i guess you can try to ask him. Just don't say any negative stuff- like his water not clean or something like that, because he will get defensive. And i think if he don't want him he will probably glad to give him to you without even money.
> If he will tell you that he want him i guess you can just ask him about water changes. Like you just curious.....
> Give update


i do need to talk to him...i dont like the setup they have.it bothers me a lot..i just seen them come home and will try to talk to them...i hope they say i can have.ive got room for 1 more betta.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Mollies would be compatible with bettas but you'd want to keep an eye on them because mollies can be aggressive little butts.


thats what some1 else had mentioned to me in another post ive been chatting in for the past week or so..but i just fount out 1 of the mollies is pregnant..ahhhhh!!!! looks like ill be listing a lot of them on craigslist...Keiichi that i know of isnt aggressive so i dont have to worry bout him going after them.but as u mentioned i do need to keep an eye on the mollies going after him like my rosy reds did..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

In a group of 9, I'm not surprised at least one molly is pregnant. If you have trouble rehoming them, well . . . er, the fry do make good betta snacks. -____-


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> In a group of 9, I'm not surprised at least one molly is pregnant. If you have trouble rehoming them, well . . . er, the fry do make good betta snacks. -____-


thats actually too much for a 10 gallon i read online but they have been surviving and enjoying it..haha betta snacks..id hate to do it.but im sure i can give them away..i have no doubt about that


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

some good news....

1..KEiichi of course is doing great..back to himself..bitting my fingers and trying to jump out when i feed him haha...

2..i just got back from getting the tank.luckily the woman lives rite across the street.it took me 30 seconds to walk there and a little longer to bring the tank and fish back..

3..not only the above.ive just been blessed helping a friend last night and made 100 dollars...woohoo!!! 

4.my dad just got off the phone and was hired at a place.now they want me to send my resume and see about getting on..it pays great.so im happy and can get things i need for my fish and finally help some1 else


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That is awesome news all around, Nate! *high fives*


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> That is awesome news all around, Nate! *high fives*


 we are all happy here.once my dad goes to work.he will put in my name.the woman that hired him said to do it once he is actually working there(tomorrow) and they will see about getting me on...im really happy that u 2 have helped me.u had no idea how that makes me feel..i still go around talking to my friends here about it..i was pretty stressed and down at the time.and then yall helped me and lifted me up..then it just keeps getting better..but i know i gotta keep myself calm  

oh should i introduce Keiichi last into the molly tank?i know they r territorial and wasnt sure if he goes first or last


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'd put Keiichi in first, actually.


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## prodrumernate (Jun 22, 2012)

thats what ill do..i have the mollies in a bucket the woman gave me to carry them over here.the water and everything is dirty..i now need to clean the tank really well.after stirring up the rocks.there is a ton of debree and waste at the bottom..i can tell she never vacuumed it out.the filter has some kinda weird brown algae type stuff ticking to everything.so i put in a fluval sponger filter in like i have in my other 10 and put the old filter behind it to keep the cycle.there isnt much deco or even rocks.to which ill be adding more.

i just put clean water in there.it looks so dirty.so ill vacuum the gravel in a few minutes and place new water again..but she gave it to me bcuz she has no time to take care of it.i see y..


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