# Betta seems lazy, lies on bottom of tank.



## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Hello everyone, firstly I'd just like to say that I'm a long time reader since I got my betta nearly a year ago. And I love the fact that everyone here is so passionate about betta's, its a very lovely thing to have such a community like this.

Basically I have a 20l tank, which is think is about 5gls. Which my betta, Freddy, shares with 10 Neon Tetras and 2 Cory-dora Catfish.

As an amateur, I only have a PH testing kit, PH is currently neutral, I use regular tap water when I do water changes, but I use an additive which removes chlorine, chloramines and ammonia from tap water. I do a 50-75% water change once or twice weekly depending on how busy I am.

Last week one of my neons died, I can't say how long he was in there for as I was asleep, what I do know is, my water heater failed during the night and because it is winter here in Australia the tank temperature dropped to about 15degrees Celsius, I usually keep it between 22-25 degrees.

Since the neon died Freddy has seemed a little odd, usually all day hes racing along one side of the walls of my tank, like a dog chasing a ball, in the last week however he has been lying on the rocks in the bottom of my tank or hiding in the plants. He also had a small white lump on his head which I identified, I believe as Itch. For the last week I have been treating the entire tank with a general antibiotic. And I did a 75% water change when I got home from work the day the fish died.

Enclosed is a picture of the tank when I first got it, its primarily the same setup today. 

PS. I received Freddy at a wedding I attended, everyone couple who attended the wedding got one, I'm very glad I was given Freddy as it sparked a whole new love for me, unfortunately others were not very pleased and I'd say about 25 poor bettas lived quite sorry, and possibly short lives, please spread the word not to give these as pets in scenarios like this if you every hear of them, looking back on it I am quite horrified they could have done such a thing.

Thanks in advance, if you need anymore information please ask


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hello and welcome to the forum.  First off, I agree that bettas aren't wedding favors unless you know that each and every person attending the wedding will take care of them, like if you invited only members of your Betta Appreciation Club or something. So I will be sure to spread the word.

Secondly, I think it is quite possible your tank is overstocked which means ammonia is building up very fast. Also, bettas like their personal space and with 9 tetras and two corys, it's a little crowded. I'd suggest either getting Freddy his own tank or upgrading your existing tank to at least a 10g (about 38 L), maybe more.

Did Freddy have any other lumps aside from the one on his head? Ich makes a fish look like he has been dusted with sea salt so there will usually be many small spots. He may have had a missing scale, possibly from a tetra nipping at him. 

It will help us help you if you could fill out the sticky. 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=49233

Just cut and paste. Once we have some of that information, we can try and figure out why Freddy is acting odd.


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## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

I think the reason he isn't feeling good is because he is in an overcrowded environment with too much ammonia possibly. Five gallons is one big enough for one single betta, no other fish. Corys need at least 10 gallons and need to be in groups of at least 3, preferably five. The tetras also require about 10 gallons. I would definitely separate the betta. He must have been having a hard time with too many tank mates and not enough space and hiding places.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

I'd just like to mention regaurding the over crowding, that he has been sharing this tank with the same amount of fish for about 9 months and has not had an issue with it, he actually enjoys chasing them around.

He had one on his head and one very small one on his back.


Housing 
What size is your tank? 10l
What temperature is your tank? 22-25 degress celcius
Does your tank have a filter? Yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? I think so
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? Neons, Corydoras

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Blood Worms
How often do you feed your betta fish? Once a day with about 3 worms.

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Once or Twice weekly
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50% or 75%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Stress Zyme + and Stress Coate +

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: N/A
Nitrite: N/A
Nitrate: N/A
pH: Nuetral
Hardness: N/A
Alkalinity: N/A

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?White spot on head and lower spine
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Resting on the bottom of the tank, seems lazy, not as active
When did you start noticing the symptoms? About a week ago.
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? One dose of Melafix daily.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No.
How old is your fish (approximately)? I've had him for 10 Months, he was the same size he is now when I got him.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Could increasing the current in my tank perhaps wear him out? I pretty much doubled it a couple of weeks ago but I didn't really think about it till now.

Also when he has no troubles eating, and he can swim fine, when he wants to, hes just significantly more inactive than normal.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Well, bettas do come from pretty still waters so the current could be playing a part in things. Try a filter baffle and see if that helps. Maybe chasing around his tankmates wears him out, too? I'd suggest if you intend to keep all of them in the 10 L tank that you up your water changes to 50% three times a week and 100% once a week, more if you can handle it. Even with a filter, you have a lot of ammonia building up pretty fast and your biofilter could crash, causing you to lose all of your fish. I'd say a 38 L/10 G tank would be better for the cory cats and the tetras and let Freddy have his own tank. If you do upgrade to a 38 L, you can get two more cory cats and they will be happier in a group. Definitely *don't* add any more fish to a 10 L. 

The spots could be and likely are ammonia burns. They are greyish in color. To prevent these, up your water changes or get a bigger tank. It's also possible the spots are missing scales, which can happen to a betta with tankmates. Keep an eye out and make sure none of the tetras are nipping at him or that he's getting spiked by one of the cory cats. You probably don't need to continue the melafix unless you want to, though.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Welcome to the forum and sorry you are having problems....I know it sounds like we are ganging up on you...we are not....like you, we only want what is best for your fish........

As posted the 5gal filtered tank is overstocked and poorly stocked...... the fish may seem happy swimming together for 10 months.... it was just a matter of time before things went bad.... now a problem is starting to show up in the form of dead and sick fish due to the root cause of over/poor stocking.........it was just a matter of time......

You can't properly meet the needs of all the fish in that size tank long term.....and the only way to fix it...is a larger tank, another tank or re-home some fish.....


Right now-I would get the Betta in a small QT container and start aquarium salt 1tsp/gal treatment along with 100% daily water changes for 10 days

In the 5gal-I would start 50% daily water only changes for 2 days-then 50% with deep vacuum weekly and 25% water only mid week on a regular bases at that bioload without the Betta in the tank....

It was just a matter of time before things went wrong...but its an easy fix and by the sound of your post...... you want what is best for your wet-pets and just received some bad advice..........

Keep us posted.....and I know you will do the right thing...I can tell by the way you write......if you didn't care you wouldn't have asked.......


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Bakesale, how is it going? Have you made any decisions about what to do? Just to let you know, Oldfishlady really knows her fish and I always respect her advice. I'm sure you'll make the right decision. Keep us posted, okay?


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Hey guys thanks the replies, I've decided to upgrade to a 100liter tank, 5 times the current siZe I have, I should have the tank ready in about 3-4 days, is it a good idea to isolate Freddy for the next 3-4 days and introduce him to the tank with the other fish or keep him isolated for the next 10 days?

The only problem I have with isolating him is that I dont have another heater to keep Freddy at a steady temp. 

Thanks!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Wow, 100 liters. Lucky you, I wish I had room for a tank that big. ;-) As for isolating Freddy . . . hmm. If you follow OFL's advice and put Freddy in a small QT container with salt, then you can keep him isolated for 10 days. I'm not 100% sure but it may be better for him to be in the salt at room temp. That will give you plenty of time to get the tank up and running. I'm not sure about cycling the tank though. I know both tetras and cory cats can be very sensitive to water quality so if you plan to cycle the tank with the fish in it, you'll have to keep the water super clean for a few weeks, at least until the biological filter stabilizes. One thing you can do is put some gravel and/or the filter from the old tank into the new tank. This will really speed up the cycling process. 

What kind of cory cats do you have? I'm hoping to get some panda corys for my tank soon. I'd love some pygmy corys but I can't find any around where I live.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

I don't know the proper name, I think it my be salt and pepper Cory Dora, I ended up naming them salt and pepper because of that, just restraint the isolation again, in a qt tank with not heater the tank could easily reAch temperatures of below 10degrees Celsius during the night, do you still think it's a good idea, seeing as it is winter here in Australia?


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Regaurding** not restraint -.- I'm on my iPhone at work and it auto corrected me


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ooh yeah, forgot about winter there. When it's summer here, I sure wish I was in Australia.  O-kay. If you put him in a QT container small enough, you could always float it in the tank, so long as you're sure he won't try and jump out or get distressed. Otherwise I'm afraid a second heater may be the only other option.

Salt-and-pepper . . . are they very very small? There are two types of cory cats that could fit. One is the Peppered Corydoras, which is among the larger cats and can get up to 8 cm, although they're usually smaller. The other type is commonly called the Salt-and-Pepper Corydoras but is also known by its scientific name c. habrosus. They are "pygmy" corys and very small, only reaching 4 cm at the very maximum. They'd be close to the same size of your tetras. If that's the case, you can get maybe four more of those cats. If they are the Peppered Corys and are big, then you can get one or two more because they'll be happier in a group.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

These are the Salt-and-Pepper Corys, or c. habrosus.









These are the Peppered Corys.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

They are about the same size as freddy, maybe a bit smaller.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

And you got them at the same time as Freddy? Then they're probably the pygmy corys because if they were Peppered Corys, they would have grown a lot more by now.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Just getting back to Freddy, I noticed he sort of "sinks" back down to the bottom, like he's sort of swimming up but can't quite do it, he can go to the top of the tank for food and some air, but he seems to go up and "sink" back down for a few minutes and then come back up...

Could it be a swim bladder disease? I know it can be cause by rapid temperature change, like when the neon died.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It could be . . . swimbladder disease is often accompanied by huge bloat, though. Often what happens is they bloat up and that causes their organs to push against their swimbladder. If the bloat can be reversed, usually so can damage to the swimbladder but not always. Damage to the swimbladder without bloating can be caused by injuries, like if he was being rammed in the side by something (another fish or he ran into a decoration etc). Hmm. Can he stay upright or does he have a tendency to tip over on his side while swimming?


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

When he lies down in the bottom he is mostly on his side, when hes swimming he's usually quite straight, sometimes if he doesn't lie on the bottom of the tank for long enough he sort of tries to swim up, and does a vertical "u-turn"

I've also given him half a frozen pea, as a treat and to see if it helps him over the next few days. He really liked it


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

A little bit of pea is good once a week because of its fibre, helps keep his little system moving; bettas are prone to constipation for some reason. Plus, as you noted, they love 'em.  As a tip, you can blanch it first to make it nice and soft for him. Hopefully his difficulty swimming is from shock at temperature change. If he doesn't improve or he gets bloated, then something else may be going on.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Also, I feed him blood worms on a permanent basis, I've only read recently they should only be given as treats.. should I try change his food?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Are they frozen or freeze-dried? There are differing opinions on how often to feed bloodworms. I personally feel that as long as you are feeding your betta only one worm per day, he'll be fine. The other two meals can be pellets. Other people feed their bettas one worm a week. It's really up to you.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

They're freeze dried. I feed him 2 a day


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

As long as they are small pieces and not whole worms, I don't think it will hurt him but if you want to be on the safe side, you can cut down to one a day or two every few days. There are some people who have experienced bloat when feeding freeze-dried bloodworms on a regular basis. I mean, their fish have bloated, not the person. ;-) I personally haven't had that happen but I have also noticed that my fish don't pass waste as often when I feed them too much dry food like pellets and freeze-dried worms. They go, just not as often so the potential for constipation is there.


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## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

Freeze dried foods should only be fed once a week, not once a day. Also, peas are actually not a good food to give bettas. It may help them "loosen up" but it isn't very good for them. They wouldn't normally eat it in the wild and bettas are carnivores. Daphnia is a better option


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, daphnia is the better option for sure but also hard to find. In a pinch, peas won't hurt. The fiber will help them and according to some sources, they obtain moisture from the peas that they don't get from normal food. If Freddy gets constipated, I'd certainly suggest daphnia and epsom salts. But isn't he just listless right now, Bakesale?


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## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

Yeah, is he constipated? From the photo it looks fine, but it could be the angle.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

I saw him poop the other day, he doesn't go very often.

Update on the tank, just got myself a 150liter tank, and it should be ready in about 5 days


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Depending on what kind of food you feed, they can go a lot in a day or a big one every few days. As long as he's going. 

Good to hear about the tank.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah, he's looking a lot better today, he still has trouble getting up sometimes but hes definately more active than he has been, I havn't fed him in 2 days, I noticed he WAS looking just ever so slightly bloated, he still manages to sneak in some of the tetras food though. 

Here's a picture of my new tank, only just put the water in so its very murky.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ooh, that's a nice tank, I like the woodwork on it. Everyone will be happy in that big of a tank. 

Bettas are greedy and fast little gluttons. Even tetras, as quick as they are, can't always defend their grub from a betta. Good idea to fast him if he does start to look bloated and/or just plain fat 'cause it probably does mean he's eating his food and then filling up even more on the tetras' food.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

I usually feed Fred first, when the tetras get fed he sometimes goes an nibble on their food then spits it out, since I've stopped feeding him he has been eating a tiny bit of tetra food, but not alot.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

How's Freddy doing? Anything changed at all?


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Hes pretty much the same, I get the feeling hes not in danger of losing his life.

He seems to swim around a bit more, but he seems to still rest quite a bit.

He keeps on staying the on the side the new tank is on, maybe he can see it and he wants to know what it is. Other than that, he will still chase fish if they annoy him and he will still come up for air and food without a problem. He's still just resting around.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's possible Freddy just needs to get some strength back. As long as you feel comfortable that he's not in any danger now, there's nothing wrong with keeping an eye on him and just waiting. I'm sure the new tank will be a big health boost for him, too.


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## Bakesale (Jun 8, 2011)

Hopefully  I'm going to put him in last and let my other fish ket used to it for a day, to make sure PH and ammonia levels don't spike too much.

Tanks nearly fully furbished, just got 2 or 3 plants to put in.
I've got a bit of shallow grass and some long grass that is going to go in down the back 

Here it is nearly completed


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## turtle10 (Dec 30, 2010)

I think if you are going to put a betta in there you will need a lot more plants and hiding spots, especially if it is a community tank. Your tank is just too bare right now.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Some little rock caves would be good for the corys. They love to hide. Oh, and you may want to get some kind of floating plant for the top for Freddy to lay on. Or if you can find it in Australia, the Zoo Med Betta Log. It may be harder for Freddy to get from the bottom to the top to breathe so providing him with something to lay on near the surface will really help him.


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