# Curious white spots. NOT Ich?



## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Hello, I've been treating my little betta boy for ich for a couple of weeks now, and last week was the first day I stopped heat treatment (about 3 or 4 days after the ich stopped appearing). Anyway, the other day, I noticed a small white dot on him when I turned on his tank light, and about an hour later it was gone. Then the next day, he had about half a dozen to a dozen on him, so I turned the temp up about 2 degrees, and they were gone in about an hour. Every day since then, there's been about one or two dots on him, and I don't know if it's Ich or something on him. 

The weird thing, which I noticed today, is they don't always seem to be too attached to him. I saw him turn, and the spot looks like a very tiny white ball stuck on him. And just a moment ago, I saw him swim through some plants, and when he swam out, the white spot was gone. 

Now, I live in a very very dusty area, and even with the tank covered, dust managed to settle onto the top of the water through the tiny holes for the heater/filter, so is it possible that it's specks of dust attached to him that sparkle in the light? I'm really concerned because I don't know whether to start treatment again or not, so I'm leaving the water at around 86 for now. I'll try to get a picture or two soon, but I have a poor camera. The water toxins are very low, he's in a 6.5 gallon, it's heated, there's a filter, and I mostly feed him new life spectrum and sometimes Omega Formula.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Just read your thread one time and i was going to write that its doesn't look like ich however i would treat for ich a little longer then 3-4 days after ich stopped appearing. So even if it not ich i would really continue the temperature 88* and daily water changes for about 7-8 more days to insure that you get rid the ones that might hide in the gills. Also those white might be excess of the slime coat from the salt or meds , or from the parasites. Usually slime coat is not bad -its his natural protection from the infection. Slime coat is clear, slimy like a mucus
So i would continue the treatment. Did you take the cartridge from the filter out though? Take it out because it is possibilities that it can also have ich since it filtrating the water.


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Sounds more like he may have tiny bubbles that get on him. I've seen it happen usually right after a water change but at other times as well. As for Ich, if you believe that's what it is, the temp should stay at 86F for at LEAST a week AFTER you see the last spot. IMO, removing the filter is unnecessary as long as you have the heat & more frequent water changes with a good vacuuming.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I agree with anhel and shellica about continuing the heat treatment. If you've let the temp back down, then I think you should just start the 2 week treatment over again. Just to be sure.

However, I disagree about removing the filter. There is no need to do anything with the filter. The heat treatment kills off ALL the parasites in the water, which includes anything in the filter media. For that same reason I do not do water changes or gravel vacuums during the 2 week treatment. In my experience it is unnecessary. The treatment kills off the parasites - the idea that the parasites need to be removed from the water/gravel stems from not wanting the fish to become reinfected. Or am I mistaken? The treatment kills the parasites, so why bother removing them? thats like setting traps for snails during a copper treatment - why bother when they are all going to die? There's just no harm in leaving the dead parasites in the tank until the treatment is over. If you have snails then I'm sure they will be consumed before then anyway.

As for your new white spots, it does sound like microbubbles from the filter or something.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

But he still needs to do water changes for 5 gall weekly minimum of 50%, or i would even do more to prevent secondary infection. And still there is a lot of derbies on the bottom that i think has to be removed ,especially there is a lot of more possibilities to get infection with the warmer water . It's nothing wrong to do water changes if you need it anyway. And a lot of people recommending to do daily water changes any way, there is no harm to do water changes especially also that fish can get secondary infection from the parasites. That is my opinion. But may be i am too clean lol I just like to make my tanks very clean , and even if it's not schedule day for cleaning i do extra any way. But i saw a lot of people really recommending daily water changes


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh, thanks so much for the help and replies. 

The temp is at 84 right now, but I'll pump it up to 86 tonight. There were no spots on him this morning, but when I returned home, he had about 3 on him. I noticed that, when he turned to the side, one of the bigger ones looked like it was floating right along side next to him, not exactly touching him. Not sure if that helps with anything, but that one at least didn't seem to be attached.

He also looks to be having some buoyancy issues. I fed him one pellet of Omega this morning, but I read that he should be fasted for this. He still has an appetite, but I worry about fasting him while doing heat treatment.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

sunlight said:


> But he still needs to do water changes for 5 gall weekly minimum of 50%, or i would even do more to prevent secondary infection. And still there is a lot of derbies on the bottom that i think has to be removed ,especially there is a lot of more possibilities to get infection with the warmer water . It's nothing wrong to do water changes if you need it anyway.


Not in my experience. Secondary infections with ich is a non-issue. He doesn't NEED to do a weekly water change. Debris does not need to be removed. The only "need" for such strict adherence to this "rule" is that of the aquarist to feel like they are doing something. Some people talk of this "need" to do these water changes like the fish will die without it, or worse the tank will implode. It's not a house of cards waiting to come crashing down. In all the heat treatments I've done, and I administer a heat treatment (2 weeks at 88) to well over 100 fish (every new fish gets it while in quarantine), I've never had an infection break out with the increased heat. It's just not something you should be scared of, from a practical point of view.

I'm not saying that there is something wrong with doing water changes during the treatment. I'm just saying that it is not necessary. You can sing and dance during the treatment too, but that's not going to make the treatment any more or less effective.




I would not be concerned about fasting during the heat treatment. Nothing will happen.

I wouldn't continue with the treatment though, as I do not believe that it's ich. Not by what you've said. I would let things go back to normal and see what happens. If the fish does still have it, then you can begin the treatment again. You will have plenty of time to act before the fish is in any real danger.

Is your water level low, creating lots of bubbles in the water?

Can you post a video?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I can try to borrow a camera to get a video up, but it'll be difficult. 

As for your other question, I have a bookshelf aquarium, so it's longer than it is tall. I read this was supposed to improve the oxygenation and give him more room to swim horizontally, as well as making it easier to get air. I also bought him a couple of really tall plants that scrape or nearly scrape the surface of the water, so I often find him laying on those when he's not begging for food. Also, my tank isn't fully cycled yet, so I've been doing daily 15-33% water changes. Ammonia is usually zero, nitrites can be .25-.50ppm, and Nitrates are always moderate. 

Is there anything I should do to tell the difference between Ich and other stuff? I noticed most of the white dots appear near the top of his body, and if it's not Ich, I speculate it's because he gets some debris or dust from the top of the water and carries it around with him.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The devil is in the details. Yes, if your tank is not cycled then you need to be doing water changes. 

It might be dust or what not, as you say. If it were ich, it would not come and go. It would get progressively worse eventually debilitating and killing the fish.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

keep us updated please


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

No white spots or bubble since last night. 

He looked really healthy this morning, so I gave him a pellet and he's been fine all day, but it looks like his belly is acting up again. He seems to be having trouble swimming downwards or staying low again, so I regret feeding him now. 

Other than that, nothing new to report. Temp is at 84-85, did a 2 gallon water change with some Epsom Salt in the new water, and shuffled around his decorations. He doesn't look bloated, but he hasn't pooped today. His poop has been looking normal though, so hopefully that rules out any internal parasite problems.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

6.5 gall no filter is fine, just do about 40-50% or less daily water changes and full water change about every 8 days . Sorry not sure if anyone mentioned , try frozen daphnia or larva if you can find it outside.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Sorry for the late response. Computer issues. 

Anyway, I do have a filter in my tank, so hopefully that's better. My little guy seems to be doing a lot better today. Swimming around and through things, high and low. Before bed, I noticed he had a couple of white things on him that I assume are (hopefully) bubbles, but there's no sign of them this morning. 

Also, I don't know if it's cause for worry, but had some poop hanging out last night before bed, and it wasn't as dark as it usually is. It didn't look stringy, but it looked rather clear with light brown chunks in it. I found it this morning and it looks mostly light brown, but there did appear to be a white and black string in it. I read this can happen because of constipation, but I hope it doesn't mean he has any internal parasites. This is the first time I've noticed this too.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

Not sure about the filter i don't have one.
But i am curious about his poo. Not sure i am wondering what other people will say about it. But definitely observe his next poo.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh no, I just looked at my Betta from above and he's contorted into an "S" shape?

What does this mean? Can it help narrow down what's wrong?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

That doesn't sound good. Were it my fish, I would cull it. Maybe someone else has a better idea, but I don't like to waste time making such decisions...not when I think the animal is suffering.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How he doing? Try to monitor his poo again. If its will be the same color again i would use General Cure API which can help with internal infection/parasites. 
S shape can be due to swim bladder problem or constipation. It's like a person who gets cramped up with gas and bloating. However its also can be sign of mycobacterial infection. And again if he is bloated and has white,clear or black poo could be internal parasites too. So lets observe and see how he doing.Of course monitor his poo.

Can you remind how long and how much of Epsom you been using? I would continue to use salt for the minimum of 14 days with daily water changes. As i remember he is in 5 gall tank and you lower the water ? And i am not sure if your tank still not cycled. If its not cycled i would do full water change once a wk. 

Forgive me i don't remember if you have another betta, if you do DO NOT SHARE contaminate anything between them.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

His shape is looking a bit better today. It's only slightly curved and not in an "S" shape anymore. He's also able to swim high an low now, unlike last night. 

I found some poo this morning that looked quite normal, but I'm still keeping an eye out for anything unusual.

I wish it was all good news, but unfortunately today he seems to be struggling to swim upwards now. His fins aren't clamped, but he's laying on the bottom and on big leaves, sometimes on his side. Also, it could just be the trouble swimming, but he does seem to take 2-3 breaths of air now when he goes up. I don't know if that's significant or not. He still has an appetite, but I'm worried. Should I give him something to eat?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I suppose I should note that he seems to "want" to be active. He never rests in the same spot for long, usually only a moment or two, and about 20-30 seconds at the longest before swimming around and finding a new spot. He's doing more exploring of his little toys than usual and his fin color is very bright.

He also perks up and dashes around when I get close, and when he's looking for food, he seems completely normal. Then when I move away, he goes back to resting. I've noticed that it's kind of like an "n" position with his head and tail sort of tilted down and his tummy kind of bent giving him a slight "n" shape. Again, I don't know if this means anything or helps, but I thought I should say something.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would feed him small meals through out the day. And give him frozen daphnia too. Since he has it for long time and it might be chronic now too so we cant starve him. He need good nutrients . You can give him one pellet in the morning, one time daphnia and may be one pellet at night see how it go. Fast him one day. I was thinking may be one day feed him only frozen daphnia. 
How long you treating him with Epsom? And how much of it?
But one thing at least good , if his poo is good.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Whenever I've done a water change, I've added two teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon with the new water. I usually only do 1-2 gallons at a time. I've been treating with Epsom for about 3 days now. I don't have daphnia, but I do have frozen peas. Will those work?

Also, how easy is it to spot white poop? I'm looking through his tank often, but I worry that I'm overlooking the bad stuff because I can't see it.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Figured I'd post an update around now. 

He no longer seems to be having any trouble swimming around. I fed him once this afternoon, and he hasn't been sinking or floating up. Apart from searching for food, he's not very active though. Occasionally clamps his fins, but not too often. No sign of any poop yet, unfortunately. 

He's been clean all day, but just now I he got a bubble stuck to him. It looks like a shinny bead sitting on his head, and it's quite large. I read that on certain fish, they produce extra mucus when they get really sick and bubbles can get stuck on them, but nothing about Bettas. Whatever it is, it certainly can't be natural, right? He doesn't appear to have any blue/grey stuff on him, so I hope we can rule out Chilodonella. I don't know what to do anymore. Been searching the internet all day. I'm so stressed.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would do more water changes with Epsom. Do at least 50% with 2 tsp/gall with daily water changes. You using the filter right? Rinse the filter in the tank water too. Treat with Epsom at least 14 days. And i don't know why i thought you have a frozen daphnia. Can you get it? Its very good when fish is constipated. Also people recommending to feed fish with fresh larva, not sure if you can get it.

I am not sure about bobbles but i want to post for you what Sakura8 wrote to someone else who had a problem. So read this, not sure if it what your boy have

'' Let me ask you a question. When you do a water change, do you get a lot of bubbles that cling to the tank walls and all the decor for a while? If so, then your guy may have gas bubble disease, which really isn't a disease at all but a condition.

What happens is when we do water changes, sometimes we get nitrogen gas bubbles in the water when cool and gas-rich waters are heated up to betta-appropriate temps too fast. This causes gas superstaturation and causes all those tiny bubbles that we often see in fish pics here on the forum. 

Normally, this does absolutely no harm at all but on some occasions, especially when the bubbles form ON the fish itself, the gas bubbles can be inhaled through the gills. Once inside, the bubbles make their way through the body and attach to tissue, forming clear blister-like bubbles on fins and skin. This may be what happened. The blisters usually resolve themselves as the gas is reabsorbed.

However, if you don't often get gas supersaturation bubbles, then another possibility is something got under those raised scales and caused a sore to form. If his behavior is normal and he is eating fine, then I would just keep the water clean and watch that spot and his behavior. 

About your ammonia . . . I would recommend first doing a partial water change and then testing ammonia again about an hour after the change. .25 ppm is a little high, right at the edge of the danger zone. If you still have a .25ppm reading right after doing a water change, then test your water straight from the tap because you may have ammonia in your source water. If that is the case, then I'd recommend switching to Seachem Prime as your water conditioner, as it helps to neutralize ammonia. You may also want to add some live plants such as floating plants or java moss.''
__________________


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I don't know about that bubble thing. They bubbles that occasionally appear on him sometimes look like they're floating right next to him. Either resting on his scales or floating just barely off of them. And when I do a water change, there isn't an excess of bubbles around the tank. I make sure the new water is the same temp as the tank water, so I don't get those bubbles.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

keep us updated please .


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Well, still no sign of new poop. Or if it's there, I can't see it.

He's floating up again today, probably because I he broke his fast yesterday. Nothing new to report though.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

You can try to increase Epsom to 3 tsp/gall . 
Can you remind to me, i think you have hospital tank. If you could maintain the temperature there , it would be really easier for you and for him if you can use it. For you its would be easier to change the water and for him its he will easier get to the surface. And also with the problem that he has he needs as less water movement as possible. So smaller tank without filter would be easier and better. And you can monitor his poo easier. 
If he will do it again and if it will be white again it might indication of the internal parasites. Then you would need to treat him with medication. But lets wait and see. Sorry i don't know what to say about frozen pea. Some people do recommending and some not. I do know that frozen daphnia recommended and larva. So i don't know what to say. You can try it i guess. Its not going to kill him. But wait he just had it so lets wait. 
Don't give him though a piece of the pea i think you need to smash it first. But wait with a pea.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I've moved him over to a three gallon tank that I'm going to use as a hospital tank for the time being. I moved his heater in their with him, but the filter is too strong and really really bothers him. I've spent the afternoon going through his old tank meticulously looking for anything, and found a white clump of (what I assume to be) poop in the corner. It looks like a fat string curled around to make a circle. 

His SBD seems to be worse today too. Just just wedges himself behind the heater and stays there near the top. When I moved him over to the new tank, a ton of the micro bubbles got stuck on him, specifically his belly. I really don't understand what's causing this and it's making me worry more than the bloating issue. I'm going to monitor him closely this weekend, and when I can go into town, I'll try to buy some anti-parasite medicine and....maybe some Clove Oil. In case things get worse...


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Posting a quick update. 

Not too long ago, he just went to the bathroom and his poop was a really light brown. It looked kind of brown and greyish. It took me a while to find it because it was floating in a corner. Anyway, after he pooped, he seems to be able to swim freely now. For the most part. I think when he stops moving, he sort of starts leaning over to one side or the other. Keeping a close eye on him to make sure he isn't scratching around or something. I hate seeing those bubbles on him.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I think its a good plan. Keep eye on him and i would still have some med's on hands. You can return them in case you don't use them. 
The medications i would look for : API General Cure, Tetra Parasite Guard, or this one. but i think this one should be ordered http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-S...tDomain_0&hash=item4ac2f86369&afsrc=1&afsrc=1


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Does his stomach looks discolored like whitish, grayish or its the color its always been?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Ever since he first got sick, I noticed his stomach has been much more lightly colored than when I first got him. It's significantly more noticeable after he's eaten.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Usually discolored stomach indication of internal parasites , well as well is internal infection. Never heard if it the same with Swim bladder problem. 
You been found his poo for a few times now. Is he bloated a lot? I would say if he is pooping but continue to be bloated , and especially if he is lethargic i would treat him with med's. And if you can find General Cure. If you will get General Cure you will need to pre mix it:
A convenient way to dose General Cure is to get a container that holds 5 cups of dechlorinated water. Add the dosage of General Cure and mix it well. Then add 1/2 cup of medicated water per 1 gallon of tank water. So if his tank is 3 gall - you add 1.5 cup .


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

He seems to get bloated after each meal. 

After he poops, his belly goes back to normal and he seems just fine for the most part. Usually swimming around the bottom, but with less effort. Would you recommend the same medicines or do you have something else in mind?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Doing a little update and, uh...he's looking rather good today. 

Fed him one pellet before bed, another in the morning, and one 6 hours later for lunch to keep his energy up. No sign of bubbles attached to him, he's swimming freely, and he's a tiny bit active in the hospital tank. No signs of bloating either. Checked his poo twice this morning and it's still really light brown, but now it's sinking. It looks rather soft compared to the darker pebble-looking ones he normally makes, but it's not white or anything. He likes to rest close to the surface after taking a gulp of air, and he usually takes several before moving on which worries me, but other than that, he's looking better I think. For now.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would say to just monitor him, but have medication on hand. Clear with light brown can happen if you give them a laxative, which is Epsom. If it doesn't go back to the normal color after a couple of poops, and if he's bloated but still eating well. If so, that *may* indicate parasites.
So lets continue Epsom , observe...
General Cure if you can find is good for internal parasites because it has Metronidazole and Praziquantel per packet.


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