# Swim Bladder or something else?



## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Iv'e had my fish since about early July and since I got him he's seemed to have had a bit of what looks like swim bladder disease. He's always slept under the bridge I have in his tank, or he'll get in between the heater and the tank and just kind of hang out there. I've tried to treat him with epsoms, which seemed to work somewhat, but he just seems to have gotten worse as time as went on. When I first got him he seemed happy, he was a vibrant color and he blew a huge bubble nest, then it seemed like his health has just rapidly declined over the months. I don't know what to do for him but I feel terrible. My last betta died and I got this one thinking that I'd do better and it just seems like I can't do any right. 

Housing 
What size is your tank? 3 gallons
What temperature is your tank? stays around 78-82
Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari Betta Bio Gold Pellets and and Tetra Freeze Dried Bloodworms
How often do you feed your betta fish? I was feeding him about 3-4 pellets daily and one bloodworm about once or twice a week with Sunday as his fasting day, but I've recently reduced it to 2 pellets per day. 

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Twice a week.
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? One 50% and One 100%. 
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Prime, API StressCoat and about one drop of Tetra Easy Balance per gallon of water since my Ph was high when I tested it. 

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: I think it was 7.0-7.5 if I can remember right. 
Hardness: Very Hard
Alkalinity: Not sure?

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Bloated Belly, clamped, curled fins. Not sure if the fins are because of the water quality or not or because he is stressed out and sick. 
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
He's gotten worse. He hides a lot under his bridge, sometimes he'll be at the bottom sitting (literally sitting) or floating at the top behind the heater on his side. Today when i put him in his cup to change his water he was floating upside down but would keep trying to correct himself. I felt horrible! He's also been darting and bumping into things lately as well. I figured it may be parasites along with the swim bladder, but I'm not sure.

When did you start noticing the symptoms? He's had the symptoms since I got him, but they've just recently started getting alot worse. 

Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? I'm treating him right now with 1tsp per gallon of epsoms and I also put some API General Cure in his tank to treat the parasites just in case. 

Does your fish have any history of being ill? He seemed happy and healthy when I got him despite the small deformity and the slight what looked like SB. 

How old is your fish (approximately)? about 3 months plus how old he was when i got him. 

Any help with this would be appreciated. I have been doing everything I can, reading so many different sites it's not even funny. A LOT of sites say to feed them the insides of a pea, but there is no way I want to do that and cause more harm then good.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I would firstly stop with the Easy Balance- bettas will adjust to whatever pH they are in with no harm, but when you start upping/downing it and playing with it you will end up harming or even killing the fish with the drastic pH changes. There are some fish who are very sensitive to pH, but not bettas. They are more sensitive to the changes you are causing and that will do the most harm.

How did you do the Epsom treatment? Normally for SBD you would want to be doing 2tsp of Epsom per gallon (dissolved prior to adding it), daily 100% water changes adding in the Epsom + water conditioner each time. It can take 8-10 days before they are better.. you will want to do the treatment a couple days past them being back to normal.

The pea treatment is best for constipated goldfish- basically for bettas a pea is empty calories/carbs that have no nutritional value and actually doesn't work- people assume it's the peas when in fact more likely it's the fasting and Epsom that helps a constipated betta.

The fin clamping is most likely due to stress and not feeling well.. your water changes, temp is spot on.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I had thought about changing the water I use to the bottled water that I use for drinking. It's the kind of water you get to put in those big blue jugs that are outside of stores. I think it's the brand Glacier, but I am not sure. Would it be better to mix some of that water with the tap gradually instead of using the easy balance? I just really think the water from the tap is way too hard for him because when I did the test strips it was at the hardest amount. 

As for the epsoms, I only started putting them in last night, before I was putting them in his tank a couple months ago. I put 1tbs per gallon of water. I hear you can go up to three, but I didn't want him to get too stressed out, he gets stressed as it is trying to swim, which is one reason why I don't think I can do the 100 percent water changes every day. Is there another way to do it? Maybe 25 percent daily changes...or 100 percent every other day? Sorry for so many questions, I am just frustrated to no end that another fish might die in my care.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Here are some pictures. First picture is close to when i first got him. It's blurry, but you can still see how vibrant his colors were. 

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t312/Withered81/TwilightFish/IMG_20120715_164838.jpg

Next pictures are of him just a day or two ago. He looks pale and his fins are clamped. I don't know what else to do. 

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t312/Withered81/TwilightFish/IMG_20120930_124740.jpg?t=1349227224

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t312/Withered81/TwilightFish/IMG_20120930_124758.jpg?t=1349227233

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t312/Withered81/TwilightFish/IMG_20120930_124834.jpg?t=1349227249

And here is a picture of him sitting up. He does this sometimes, and i've noticed when he sleeps under the bridge he is sometimes upside down or sticking to the side in a weird position.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t312/Withered81/TwilightFish/IMG_20120930_125034.jpg?t=1349227246


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Anyone have any other ideas? I read a post that Old Fish Lady had about QTing them to a cup with epsom salt water and covering it with veggie wrap. I am in the process of doing this but he looks so stressed in the cup and keeps floating on his side or on his back. He looks miserable and I don't know what to do for him. I feel awful.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

You can do it in the cup or you can just lower the water.I would do 100% daily water changes with epsom. You wrote you put medications General cure for internal parasites i would do it too and redose it every time when you change the water. If you need to do double dose just redose it.

Is he still eating?


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

The only problem with lowering the water is that I wouldn't be able to have my heater going in lowered water. Is it okay for him to be floating on his side like that? I didn't add the general cure to this water, just the 3 tbs of epsoms and i'm doing the 15 minute 25 percent water changes for an hour and will do the 50 percent daily for 14 days like Old Fish Lady suggested in another post. Hopefully he doesn't die in the process, I am crossing my fingers, but I just don't know what else to do.

Forgot to add, he ate two of his pellets yesterday, but I didn't feed him today because he looks so bloated. I figure fasting him for a day or two wouldn't hurt..


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

my problem that i don't see that he is bloated. It very important if he is bloated it can be internal parasites. If he is not bloated thane it can be external parasites since he is darting.
If you sure he is bloated check for his poo. If he has white,clear stringy,wormy poop then he has internal parasites. And epsom salt and those medications it right treatment. 

If he is eating then try to find frozen daphnia and feed him. If he has internal parasites it always helps when fish is eating so he can pass parasites with waste. 
When you do 100% water changes you can pit water conditioner and let water sit 24 hrs this way water is the same temperature . Have him in changing container and add a little bit of the new water for a few times and let him sit in the water for about 5 min. Do it for a few times this way he might be less stressed because you acclimate him to new water chemistry/temperature.

It very important if he is not bloated though then it can be external parasites since he is darting . Is his scales raised. Sometimes if fish had flukes scales can be raised . Then you need aquarium salt not epsom salt.

So can you check on poo and are you sure he is bloated sorry i can 't see it

And also it really not your fault so don't blame yourself. Also you wrote your first fish died did you disinfect the tank? If not maybe he got it from first fish. 
And i also agree with Myates about water. It better to use probably tap water but take long time to acclimate him.

I didn't see your answer yet because we posted at the same time


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

ok you saying he is bloated. Check on his poo. If you take the gravel out it will be easier for you to see it. If it will be white , clear and stringy it can be internal parasites. 
If his poo normal color just epsom salt will help. But i like to do 100% water changes though.
Try to find frozen daphnia it good for bloating


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't have acess to daphnia unfortunately. And he does poop pretty often from what I can tell. Sometimes it is white and stringy and sticks to the top of the tank and sometimes it is a brownish color and is stiff. So I am not really sure about that? He pooped last night and it was kind of stringy but it looked brownish to me. I'm not really sure what normal poop looks like for a betta. When my first fish died, I did disinfect the tank with white vinegar and hot water. Soaked everything for about an hour in very hot water and let the tank bake and air dry outside for about an hour or two.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

is his bloating better when you fast him? I would think if he is bloated after you fast him then something is going on. If he is bloated after you fast him and if he has white poo, which is possible due to stress though, i would think he might to have internal parasites. And i would treat him with epsom salt 2-3 tsp/gall and medications. 
So if you not sure about poo i would definitely check. If it indeed internal parasites fish deteriorate fast and you need to act fast.
Also symptoms for the internal parasites discoloration of the stomach, bloating, poo white....


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

also you saying he is darting a lot , does it looks like he trying to rub his body against something?


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Well I had something posted and then my internet went out. He seems to bloat up alot after I feed him. I had fasted him on Sunday and his bloat seemed to go down a little, and then I did a water change yesterday and had fed him 2 pellets and he seemed to bloat up again. Could he be bloating from stress? 

It doesn't look like he rubs up against things, he was just darting and bumping into things but not that often. If he poops tonight i'll get a good look at it and see if it's stringy and white. 

Do you think I should add some general cure to his little cup, or just leave him in the epsoms treatment and see how his poo looks and make a judgement from there about adding more general cure?


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

i would check his poo first. Because if his poo brown color,short string or ball shaped then he probably don't have internal parasites. Make sure it not white,clear wormy shape. So i don't want to use medications until you know what is going on.

But diffenetelly do epsom salt 2-3tsp/gall. 
The water that you are using it spring water right? Make sure it not distill water because this can be the reason he is sick. And i would really find out if you can use your tap water. Just need to take tame to acclimate him.
So let check his poo first.

Also i am really agree with everything Myates wrote ph and Easy.
I never had any ph problem but like Myates wrote bettas will adjust to it . And i did mixed tap water and spring water before for short period of time (4-5 month) with no problem but again i didn't have ph issue so not sure if it helps.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I fed him one pellet this morning and he ate that. He only pooped a small amount and it didn't look white, it looks more of a tan color to me and it doesn't look wormy. He doesn't really look any better...he's floating on his side now at the bottom of the cup as opposed to belly up on top, so I don't know if that is an improvement or not. However, it looks like there is something white on his gill now. I can't really tell because I don't have his light on in his tank so he can get some rest...but it sure looks white to me. I have to go to work now till like 7pm...so I hope he's still alive when I get home.  I wish I had access to some Indian Almond Leaf but I live in a small town and our Pet Store is really crappy.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

it good that he eating though. 
Not sure what white is. Is it fuzzy? White can be fungus, just excess of slime coat, or external parasites.
Check on that white thing when you come home. It just my concern that you wrote that he is darting and a lot of time fish will dart if they have external parasites. So if you can take flashlight and shine on him and see if he has white spots on his body or if he looks like he sprinkled with salt , or if it looks like his body covered with a fine gold or rust mist.
I have a few IAL i can mail them to you.
Until we don't know what is white keep him on epsom salt,stress coat.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

So i'm on lunch break now, he looks worse. He's just sitting at the bottom of his tank..his color is bad and he's breathing hard. He looks like my fish Jack did before he died so i'm not really holding on to the hope that he'll make it. It seriously sucks. I would get the IAL from you but by time it got here he'll probably be gone and I don't plan on getting any more fish after this since all it seems I can do is kill them and I hate seeing them suffer. I feel like I have a black cloud over my head and can't do anything right when it comes to fish as much as I try. Someone else could put a fish in awful water for weeks and it would probably thrive. Haha. Sorry, i'm just upset. It seems like I try everything and nothing works and I just wanted to have a happy and healthy fish.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you for the help though, I do appreciate it!


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

so sorry it not you. And it happen to everyone. I know a lot of people and i mean a lot who had not even 2 bettas died but 4 in a row. You don't have black cloud you do your best. And that is why this forum has so many people and all have problem , so don't blame yourself. I brought sick betta from the store too. 
Please try to do 100% water change now.
Please tell me about white that he had before
Do you see anything on his body?
What is that white that you saw in the morning?
Is there anything else on the body? 
Somehow i think may be he has external parasites. Do you have aquarium salt?
I know it upsetting it ok. You do a lot for him it really not you. Please if you can answer questions.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi withered. It sounds like your boy may have a really nasty secondary internal bacterial infection, judging from the bloating and the graying belly and his swim bladder problems. He may have started out with external parasites but it sounds like the little bites they leave might have gotten infected.

Because he's so severely bloated, I'd recommend you put him in 3 tsps of epsom salts per gallon in a shallow container so he can breathe easier. If you'd like you can try to treat him with an antibiotic like API Furan-2 or better yet, Seachem Kanaplex but I'm not sure if it will help the poor guy at this stage. 

Try to keep his water as warm as possible, at 78-80 F. 

I'd also recommend that you switch to your tap water. Unless your tap water is just so goshawful that even YOU can't use it, it's always best to use water from the faucet along with a good conditioner like Seachem Prime that detoxifies heavy metals and chlorine/chloramine. The problem with using bottled water is that often, a lot of the vital minerals that are in it have been removed. Most people who use bottled water, water-softened water, or R/O water have to remineralize it with a supplement like Kent's R/O Right.

I hope your little guy pulls through. I'm rooting for you.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Well I just got home from work and he moved from his place on the bottom of his cup and looked at me. His color looks a little better, but he's still just floating there on his tail like he's actually sitting down with his head up. I don't know why he does this and it scares me when he does, but his body is a little deformed so I think it's hard for him to stay upright for long periods of time plus the swim bladder isn't helping. His belly looks a bit better and I fed him another pellet just a few minutes ago, which he ate. The white doesn't look fuzzy and it was by his gills, but i'm thinking maybe it's just because he is stressed out. I am going to do as much of a water change as I can without moving him from the cup for stress reasons. He still hasn't pooped since last night. I do have AQ salt, but if he's bloated, I hear that AQ salt only harms more then helps. 

Sakura. You helped me when Jack was sick and i'm still greatful for that. I do have him in a floated container with some veggie wrap on the top like Old Fish Lady suggested in another post I read trying to find out more info. I have him in a mixture of 3tbs of epsoms but I mixed half tap water and half bottled because I really think that my tap water is harming him since it's super hard water and the ph is pretty high. I thought maybe mixing the water would help lower the ph a bit without having to put the easy balance in it. I wish I could get those antibiotics but i'd have to get them online and in the week it takes to ship them here...he might be gone by then so I don't know if I should. I have API General Cure, API Fungus Cure and Maracyn 2 on hand right now if any of those would help. I wanted to get IAL but it might take too long for it to get here. I hope he pulls though though. I don't want to have to bury another fish. I really love this little guy and he was so beautiful when I got him. I just want him to be healthy and happy again blowing his bubble nests like he did when I first got him.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Withered, has he always sat on his tail like that? Can you describe how he swims? Can he swim easily or does he sometimes almost hop around when he swims, like he can't control his back end?


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

He has been sitting up like that for a couple of weeks now but usually he hides under the bridge in his tank at a weird angle because it's like he can't hold himself up so he needs something to balance himself on if that makes any sense. He didn't seem "that" bad when I first got him, but he's always had trouble swimming. It is kind of like a hop..like he'll swim and stop a little and swim and he swims head down sometimes, especially when he is bloated.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He may have a genetic swim bladder deformity, possibly from poor breeding. When he gets bloated, the bloating puts further pressure on his organs and makes his swimb bladder even worse. 

3 tblsp of epsom? How big is his tank again? It should be 3 tsps. 

Most bettas adjust to any pH. The ony kinds of bettas who have any trouble with high pH and hardness are crowntails, because it makes their fins curl and warp. My pH is 7.8 and all of my bettas are doing okay. However, if you don't want to use just tap water than I would definitely suggest using half dechlorinated tap water and half bottled water. This way the water will still have the necessary minerals.

Unfortunately, none of those meds will help him right now. General Cure and Fungus Cure are both for external parasites/external bacteria and Maracyn 2 won't work in high pH and will cause more damage to his kidneys. 

Do you have access to any naturally dried oak leaves? If so, you can use those as a source of tannins for him. Just rinse the leaves off and crumble into his tank.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I may try to get some IAL off of E-bay or somewhere anyways just in case he does pull through and tough it out. I'm sorry...I get tbls and tsp mixed up and sometimes I type tbls instead but it was 3tsp measured out into a gallon jug of water. Half tap, half bottled treated with prime. I also put some Nutrafin Betta Plus in there because it claims to have Tropical Almond Leaf extract and I thought that might be good for him to have. I DO think he has a genetic issue and maybe thats causing him more stress. Is it OK for him to be sitting up like that though? I'm not sure if I have any Oak Leaves anywhere around here. I'm sure there are some, but I wouldn't know how to spot one even if there were..>.<

Also I have him in the small cup right now floating in his tank. I did about a 65/75% water change just now and it still seemed to stress him out a little.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I have a handicap betta who sits on his tail because his back end is completely paralyzed. He is my happiest betta. I don't think your guy's problems are related to his sitting on his tail. 

The Nutrafin Betta Plus can only help. 

If you order from e-bay, the best one is Amy Ketapang. Problem is she's in Singapore so it'll take almost a month to get here.  Let me know if you want me to mail you some.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I am in New Mexico so Cali to NM shouldn't take too long. I will PM you my information. Thank you so much! The fact that your Betta sits on his tail and is doing just fine gives me hope. I would much rather try the IAL in his water then meds because it seems like meds just hurt more then anything sometimes. Also, if he gets better after the treatment, should I continue putting some epsoms in his regular 3 gallon tank to help with the bloating issues or is it not good to use it over the 14 days?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, sometimes overmedicating can be just as harmful as not medicating. And epsom salts can be used indefinitely with no harm.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Ugh, he looked like he was getting a little better...and I just looked at him and he got up and started darting around and bumping himself against the walls of his cup. Maybe he does have some parasites, but I don't know if they are external or internal. Should I try to put the General Cure in there or wait till I receive the IAL and pray that he makes it until then?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Can he swim properly? I mean, he didn't suddenly stand straight up on his tail or start spinning out of control or anything like that did he? 

If he rubs and darts a lot and his fins are clamped and he's lethargic, it could be external parasites. But unfortunately, sudden bursts of really erratic swimming can also mean the organs are beginning to shut down.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

He was swimming up to get some air and then it just looked like he got scared and he started darting around and bumping into the walls of the cup, kind of like he didn't know they were there. I can't really explain it. He's been sitting on his tail all day though, so he didn't just suddenly start doing that. I was really hoping he would hold out till I got the Almond Leaf from you but if his organs are shutting down, I don't know how much good it will do even if I do get it in time. So frustrating!!! 

I have a friend who was taking care of someones Betta for them and they had the Betta in a glass vase with no heater/filter and just marble rocks for decoration...only change his water every other week or so, and don't acclimate him back into the new water...they just pour him back in with part of his old water...and he's survived for years. I don't understand? I do everything I can and my fish dies, but someone else can neglect a fish and it lives for years. It's really upsetting.  Makes me wonder if doing so many water changes all the time is the cause because they get too stressed out and then they get sick because of the stress.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he's still with us right now, then it probably wasn't organs then, thank goodness. They usually get all weird and jerky right before the end. Happened to me with a really sick betta from Wal-Mart once. Maybe your little guy really did just get a sudden itch. I wish these little fish could be more clearcut about their symptoms. 

Here's one thing you can do. After you do a water change that gets the ammonia in his tank back to 0, test for ammonia every day. Keep track of the days until you get a level of 0.25ppm. The amount of days that it takes for the ammonia to get from 0 to the danger zone will be how long you go between water changes. That way, you don't have to do any unnecessary changes that may be stressing him out.

Another way to keep water changes as stress free as possible is to use a gravel vacuum/siphon. With this, you can suck out all but an inch of the water while still leaving him in the tank. No stress of being cupped and removed.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

He is still alive this morning thank god. He didn't look good when I first looked at him though, but he's perked up a little since and was swimming around in his cup and looking at me, and he ate the pellet I put in there for him. It worries me that he hasn't pooped though since tuesday night even though he's in the epsom mixture...but he hasn't been floating at the top of the cup on his side anymore which is good I think? If he IS going to die, which I seriously hope he pulls through because he seems like a fighter, but if he is...then at least if I get the IAL before he does...maybe it will help him to relax and make him feel a little bit better and ease the passing. I really really want him to pull through though so i'm having some faith...even though he scares the crap out of me when he just sits there looking at me like..HELP PLEASE!!


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Also, I noticed that his temp was about 81 when I went to bed last night...but during the night it'll drop down to 78-79 even with the heater in there...and even if i turn up the heater some. Will this hurt him or is a few degrees drop not a horribly bad thing? I mean...it DOES stay in the range of 81-78 consistantly....and usually during the day it stays stable.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

oh withered i am glad he still with you. I think temperature issue is fine since it dropping gradually.
I take heater out in the summer time from all my tanks and temperature fluctuate about even 5* but because it gradually they all fine.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks sunlight! I am home for lunch and he got up and was swimming around a little more so hopefully he's comming out of it. I'm trying to have faith here! The only thing i'm worried about his him not pooping...could it be possible he's eating his poop? Since i'm not here all day I can't check on him all the time to see. I didn't think the 2 degrees difference in temp would be that big of a deal since I am sure even in their own climate it probably drops a bit at night...but I just wanted to be sure. Thanks for the advice!


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

When is last time he poo though? 
I wish you can find frozen daphnia in the store, it really helps if he is constipated.
Not sure if betta eats his own poo. I know my bettas sometimes take it thinking it food and then spit it out. I would think he just didn't poo


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

The last time he pooped was on Tuesday night. I wish I had access to some as well. I could order it online but it would take about a week to get here. If he starts showing signs of improvement I may go ahead and purchase some. He does seem to be improving some, and I want to get my hopes up...but I'm afraid to. 

Does the frozen daphnia need to be kept in the fridge? If so...how would they ship it to me if it needs to be kept cold?


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

You sure you don't have it in the pet stores? I never order daphnia but i would think they will use may be dry ice? Not sure may be you can find phone # and call them before shipment.
I hope/wish he can survive.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I only have one pet store here and it only carries a couple of things for fish. The only food i've seen there for bettas is flakes, and i've long since stopped feeding him those since all he ever did was spit them out. I'm wondering if it would be okay to put a decoration in his little cup so that he can have something to rest on. It doesn't seem like he is comfortable floating on his tail and putting something sturdy in there he could lean against might help him rest a little. He's swimming a little more today though..I hope that is a good sign. Keeping my fingers crossed that he'll pull through! I'm almost wanting to put him back in his 3 gallon so he can hide under his bridge and get some rest...but I don't know if that would be a good idea or not.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If you can put a little plant in the cup, that would be good. Frozen brine shrimp can also be used to encourage the digestive system and is often more readily available than frozen daphnia. 

If you want to put him in the 3 gal, just make sure he can easily get up to the surface to breathe. You may need to lower the water level some.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

He seems to be able to swim okay right now. He's been swimming pretty good in his cup today...he just still has trouble not turning on his side when he's trying to rest...and I think that is one reason why he sits on his tail...but he doesn't look comfortable and it seems like he can't get into a comfortable spot to rest. I do have a small part of a leaf in there, but it's not heavy enough for him to rest on comfortably because it keeps tipping over when he tries to rest on it. I want to put him back in the three gallon but I don't know if i'll have time to do water changes every single day. I just feel bad for him because it seems like he can't rest the way he is and I don't know what I can put into the small cup that he can lean against so that he can rest. When he's under the bridge he can use the top and the sides to support himself. I don't have access to brine shrimp either unfortunetly unless I drive about an hour and a half to the petco two towns away. The only thing I have here is a petsense which is sort of like a very small version of petsmart but most of the store is dog stuff. There is a tiny section for fish and there are some bettas there but all they sell is small half gallon tanks and like one or two water conditioners and some flakes. I was surprised they had AQ salt there and was lucky to grab some when they did because they don't have it anymore.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I was able to take a video, but I think the light on my cameraphone was stressing him out. It shows the way he just sits there. Hopefully this will give you an idea of what he's doing.

http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/.../?action=view&current=VID_20121004_215737.mp4


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You wouldn't need to change the water every day if he's in his 3 gallon. He can swim better than I expected and his fins aren't too tightly clamped but his breathing is a little harder, possibly because it takes more effort to swim now. Definitely some swim bladder problems. If he's been constipated then that could explain why he might be having trouble.

If you can find frozen NO SALT ADDED peas, you can try one of those to encourage him to go. Blanch the pea by microwaving it for 20-30 seconds and then put it in a bowl of ice water for 1 minute to cool it. Peel it and cut out a piece that is hardly bigger than the tip of a toothpick and see if he'll eat that.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I think I may have some frozen veggie rice with peas in it. I'll make sure it doesn't have any salt added and take a pea out of there and try that tomorrow. His fins only seem to clamp up bad when he is laying down...but when he's swimming they aren't as stiff or badly clamped. His fins are pretty warped on the edges though...i'm thinking that might have something to do with the hardness of my water, but I have no idea. I wish I could get a better quality video. I'm hoping the IAL you sent will be here tomorrow or Saturday. I have a feeling if I can add that to his water...maybe it'll help him out as well.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, sometimes hard water can ripple fins although it happens more often with crowntails. I hope the IAL gets there soon too. He looks better than I feared, though.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

You think so?? I think his tummy looks pretty bloated. Can you tell if he might have any other issues going on there? I hate trying to diagnose because every symptom i'm thinking...oh my god..it kind of seems like he has that...but then again, maybe i'm just overreacting. I worry too much about him because I don't want him to die. The fact that he has a bit of a deformity only makes me want to help him to thrive more. It relieves a bit of my stress though for you to say that he looks better then you'd thought he would. Thanks so much for your help...seriously, I don't know what I would be doing without your advice and the advice of other experts here on this forum. He probably would have died a long time ago if I didn't have the help here. I'm sure Twilight would thank you too if he could.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He looks a bit pudgy, yes, and his belly is gray, but he doesn't look grossly bloated. Most likely his pudginess is related to his possible constipation. But honestly, he looks much better than I expected. His color is strong, his fins are much more open than I thought. They don't look too ratty. He looks very good and I think you're right, the IAL should really help him a lot.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Great! That gives me hope that he may survive this. I was almost sure that when I woke up Weds morning he would be a gonner...but you saying that gives me the hope that he might have a really good chance of pulling through. I'll keep you updated on his progress and i'll let you know when the IAL comes in. Thanks so much Sakura!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

No problem.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

He is so cute! How you going to change his water in 3 gall?


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I'll probably just keep him in the cup till the 14 days are over. I just feel bad because it seems like he can't rest. He got really bloated again today and how he's floating on the top of the cup on his side again. He's trying to swim down but everytime he does he just floats back up to the top like a cork.  I feel so sorry for him. I was able to get him to eat a piece of the inside of a pea today and he pooped a little bit and it looked like a little brown ball...so i'm guessing that he doesn't have any internal parasites so that's good. I just want him to get better! I think i'm only going to feed him once every other day or something. Maybe he just can't process food as well as others...and the fact that he has a deformity makes it worse on him. Poor guy.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You can try to feed him another bit of pea every other day too. I always feel so bad for them when they just float up until they hit top like a balloon hitting the ceiling.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I really want to try to get some daphnia for him somewhere. Would freeze dried daphnia work if I don't have access to frozen...or would that not be good for him? I'm leery about the freeze dried because I read somewhere that it wasn't that great for them...it was more like a snack. Do you think he can go on living a healthy, semi-normal life floating at the top like that? It just stresses me out seeing him struggle like that and I don't know what else I am able to do for him to ease his stress.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Freeze-dried can be done, yes. Overall, freeze-dried is very nutritious but there are some concerns that it causes bloating. I personally haven't experienced any problems like that but others claim to have. 

 You may want to see if you can get him a betta leaf to rest on. Those just suction cup to the side of the tank. You can get ZooMed ones off the internet but a better option would be these:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=116136
because they don't have metal in them. The ZooMed ones do and eventually the metal rusts and in some cases, it's come loose and impaled fish.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I do have one of those hammocks, but he never really showed much interest in it at all so I took it out of his tank. Do you think it would fit in the small cup like that or that he'd even like it in there? I can try if you think it would benefit him. 

I really hope that he improves within the next week because I am going to be going on vacation and have to rely on my mom to change his tank water, which hopefully I can put him back into by time I leave. I just don't know if he's going to make it floating at the top like that...everytime he starts doing that I think he's a gonner for sure. I look at him and tell him you can't die!!! I wish he could just tell me what I need to do to help him.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

*sigh* I don't think he's going to make it after all. I had pretty high hopes. He was floating at the top of his cup all day and just a few minutes ago I heard a weird noise and looked up and now he's sunk at the bottom and is breathing heavy and won't swim when i move his cup a little. I really thought he'd pull through. Ugh. 

I guess there isn't anything more i can do at this point. I feel awful.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry withered.  Maybe he'll pull through and surprise us all. Poor little fellow. But you've done everything you can to help the little guy and you've given him so much love and great care. He's a lucky guy to have such a good owner who cares so much about him.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, he's still alive right now...but he's just laying at the bottom of the cup still with his head propped up. Unfortunately I didn't get the IAL in the mail today like I had hoped. I thought if anything..that would help him out and maybe he'd make a recovery...but considering I won't get it till Tuesday now...if then, I don't really have high hopes of him making it until then. 

Do you think I should try to put some medication in there as a last ditch effort? He's obviously sick from something since he's just laying at the bottom looking pathetic right? I just can't figure out for the life of me what it could be unless he does have the bacterial infection like you'd said Sakura, on top of the swim bladder. 

I have Maracyn 2, some Fungus Cure and some General Cure. Do you think any of those would help him...or do you think i'd just be harming him putting more in? I just don't know what to do...I want to save him, but I have no real access to medications unless I buy them online and I wouldn't get them until a next week probably unless I did express mail and it might be a moot point by then. This is so frustrating! 

Is there any kind of tea bag from the store I could buy that might help him? I have some camomile tea...and some green tea. I'm trying to think of everything I could do.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Unfortunately, none of those medicines would probably help. General Cure *might* make a slight difference because its ingredient, metronidazole, can be effective at treating internal bacterial infections but not usually via water. Usually for metro to help with an infection it has to be fed via medicated food. 

I'm so sorry. I'm sure it's so frustrating but you're doing everything you can and even medicating might not help if we can't quite figure out what's wrong with him. I do think there's more to this than just a deformity. Something internal, but it's so hard to tell what. 

If you have decaffeinated green tea without any additional flavors at all, you can steep a bag in his water until it turns dark tea-colored. That releases some tannins that should help him but I will warn you, some bettas have also experienced negative reactions to green tea as well. I think it was possibly due to how the tea was administered but I can't be sure that's all it was so that's why I mostly have stopped recommending it as a source of tannins. I've been okay using it, though. In cases where the betta reacted negatively, the tea was always steeped separately and then poured into the tank. I always steep the tea directly in the tank itself.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Well he's still eating, so I wonder if I could put a very very small amount of the GC into some water and soak a pellet in it and feed it to him. Would that be possible? I do have decaf green tea, but I don't want to chance it if he might have a negative reaction. 

I DO have some tea tree oil...and I was reading up that you can place 1 drop per gallon in there to fight off bacterial infections. I've had the tee tree oil forever though...I havent even opened it yet but it's been in a cool, dry place since i've had it in the amber colored bottle. 

I don't get my fish...he's just crazy. He scares me because he'll just sit at the bottom looking pretty dead, but then he'll get up and start swimming around his cup like he's fine. I really hope he pulls through by tues and that i get the IAL. I want to kick the postmans behind for not delivering it today!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, you can try soaking some food in the GC if you think it might help. If you don't plan on putting any in the water, then get a small bit of tank water and empty 1 packet of GC into that. Make kind of a paste and coat his food in that. He may or may not like it, it could taste nasty. If you have garlic juice you can flavor the mixture with that and make it more palatable.

Tea tree oil is . . . iffy. It's the active ingredient in API's Melafix and Bettafix. If dosed correctly, it can be somewhat effective against external bacterial infections (fin rot, wounds and ulcers etc) but it doesn't help much with internal problems and if it is overdosed or used too much, the oil can damage the betta's labyrinth organ, which it uses to breathe surface air with. If you want to try tea tree oil, I'd recommend Bettafix and not just straight up tea tree oil. 

If you do want to try the decaf tea, steep it in the tank. That is the best way to avoid a negative reaction associated with shock.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I may try the GC pellet thing tomorrow since I already fed him a pellet today and I don't want to overfeed. I know one pellet probably isn't much...but it seems like if I give him any more then that he bloats up bad...so i'm trying to play it safe for right now while he's in his QT. How many pellets with the GC should I give him and do you think it's okay to mix it in the water with the epsoms i'm treating him in? Sorry for all the questions. >.< I just think the GC and the pellet is the most practical out of the tea tree oil and the green tea. I just wish I knew if it was an internal infection or an external.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

With medicated food, you feed it exclusively for 14 days so however many pellets you regularly feed him a day. And yes, it's okay to mix the meds with epsom salt. It's actually beneficial if you're trying to purge a fish of internal parasites since epsom salt acts as a laxative.

Well . . . if it was an external bacterial infection he'd probably have ulcers and sores or wounds on his body. An internal bacterial infection is like when a human gets a kidney or urinary tract infection, in some ways. It causes fluid to build up and if untreated, causes the organs to shut down. Same thing with an internal infection in a fish only the fluid buildup causes the bloating and the pineconing effect we know as dropsy. 

If it was an external parasite infection, he'd be clamped a lot, lethargic, and have excess slime coat production. He may or may not rub and dart on things and he'd probably have heavy breathing and his gills would be a sickly color. 

If it was an internal parasite infection, he might have stringy, whiteish poo indicating something like tapeworms. But constipation can also be a sign of internal parasites if they are blocking the intestinal tract. It's really hard to tell. In a larger fish, a veterinarian skilled in treating fish would be able to take a blood sample and/or tissue sample and test it under the microscope to identify if it was parasitic or bacterial and if bacterial, which type of bacteria. But with bettas, they're just too small for most of that.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

The sad part about all of this is I leave next Saturday, early in the morning to hope on a plane cause i'm going on vacation. I'm leaving my fish in the care of my mom, who hates to do anything complicated like that...so i'd only be able to treat him for 6 days with the medicated food at best. I also don't think I have enough packets of the GC for that many days of treatment unless i only use a small bit of the packet each time since i'll probably only be feeding him 1-2 pellets per day. 

If I do happen to get the IAL on tuesday, I will also only be able to treat him with that till Saturday...which I plan on doing a full water change in my tank and putting him back in there on that day since he's been in the small QT cup since Tuesday. 

How much IAL should I put in his 3 gallon tank? I could still do that and have some eposoms in there while i'm gone for the week. I will be back the following Saturday. My mom has agreed to do a partial water change within the week as long as I have the water ready for her to pour in, and I only told her to feed him 2 pellets every other day while i'm gone. I hope he pulls through...but at the same time I don't want him to die while i'm gone because my mom will freak out. If only I could take him with me!

Also, he does seem clamped alot, but that is only when he's down at the bottom of the tank trying to rest on his tail and not moving...when he's swimming he doesn't seem too clamped at all really. He doesn't have any sores/ulcers from what I can tell either...but his gills do look different from what i'm used to seeing them look like. He's always had yellow stripes on them, and I wasn't sure if that was from stress...or if it was just his original coloring since he does have yellow on his fins.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

All your mom has to do is put a leaf in. She can even just put the same leaf back in after she does a water change. It's that easy. 

I'll definitely be rooting for the little guy to pull through until you come back.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, I tried to feed him the pellets coated in GC today but he was having none of that. Stubborn little guy. Hehe. So I went ahead and soaked two pellets in the treated epsom water and gave those to him...hoping maybe the epsom soaking will help him use the bathroom. 

I'm starting to think that maybe he's not really sick, except for the SBD...but I really don't know. He has a healthy appetite. He was trying to get the pellet off the spoon I had it in before I could even dunk it into his water. I think he'd probably eat more if I'd let him...but I'm going to just limit him to 2 pellets per day and maybe just one if he looks bloated. 

Since i'm going out of town on Saturday, I will have access to Petsmart, Petco and tons of other pet places since i'll be in a much much larger town. I'll try to pick up some freeze dried Daphnia while i'm there and maybe some other meds that might be useful just in case.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Some bettas are just hypochondriac divas.  I'll go ahead and post signs of distress though so you can tell if he genuinely is acting ill or if he's just fussing over something:

* heavy gill movement
* gasping with the mouth visibly moving
* lethargy to the point where the fish will only move if prodded (not to be mistaken with a fish that was asleep, though)
* color that has faded rapidly over the course of a few hours


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

He does have heavy gill movement at times, but other times his gills move just fine. I think he only does the heavy movement when he is stressed out. He is pretty lethargic though, but I don't know if it's because swimming stresses him out since he's still very bloated...or if he's really sick. His color seems okay, it's still pretty bright but it's hard to tell since I don't turn my tank light on anymore so that he can rest. He hasn't pooped since last Thurs I think, so i'm getting really worried about him. I fed him another bit of pea yesterday and he hasn't passed anything yet. I'm just wondering if he's being a diva like you said and won't poop because he's in the little cup. I think I might go ahead and put him back in his tank tonight and see how he does, but i'll still keep the epsoms in there and hopefully I get the IAL today and I can drop that in there as well. How long can you use one IAL for his tank? Do you need to change it with every water change or does it last for a while?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

One IAL can last for a while. Basically, as long as it keeps turning the water brown, it's good. 

One way to get them to poop is to get them active, such as getting them to flare or even chasing them gently around the cup. But I hesitate to suggest riling him up if he breathes heavily when stressed. But if he doesn't poo soon, we may need to try it anyway.


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

I got the IAL today! Thanks for sending me so much!! It's sure to last me a good while! Should I keep a leaf in there all the time or only when he is sick? I hear it's good to have a leaf in there all the time to fight off any sickness they might get, but I don't want to have it in there all the time if i'm not supposed to. I think i'm going to go ahead and change the water in his 3 gallon and add 3tsp of epsom per gallon and some IAL to that. I think maybe he'll feel more secure in the larger tank since he has hiding places and it might encourage him to be more active and maybe he'll poo. He looks pretty pathetic right now just floating or sitting at the bottom but he still eats and responds to me when I look at him. I have tried to get him to flare but he doesn't seem interested.  I really hope he doesn't die while i'm away. Poor Twilight. He's held on for this long.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, it's okay to have a leaf in there at all times. All your mom will have to do is change the water and put the leaf back in. I think one leaf may even last the entire week you're away. It'll eventually get waterlogged and sink to the bottom. 

Any activity is a good thing because it might encourage to poo. C'mon, Twilight! Hang in there buddy!


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## Withered (Mar 13, 2012)

Well Twilight seems to be doing better today. He pooed last night as soon as I put him back in his 3 gallon tank with the IAL and some epsoms. He seems MUCH happier now that he's back in his tank. He's swimming around and responding and even trying to munch on some of the leaf, and his bloat went down almost instantly after he pooped so I think thats a good sign. I think I may have to treat him with some epsoms indefinitely though since he seems to still have the Swim Bladder problem but I think it's just hereditary for him. Poor guy!  Thanks so much for all your help Sakura and everyone else that posted here. I will update you if his condition worsens/changes!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You're welcome. Go Twilight!


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

hey , how is you betta doing?


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