# Anyone experienced with breeding super blacks?



## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

Does anyone have any recent information on breeding super black bettas? I have read information on breeding black bettas on www.bettysplendens.com, but the information is very old and does not reference anything about super blacks.

Technically a super black is a betta that has no visible irids, however you will see breeders list their bettas as super blacks if their betta has just a slight amount of blue irids.

I was able to find a forum in which someone has consistently bred true super blacks. But he is extremely guarded about the breeding pair he uses. The only thing he would confirm is that one of his super black fry did come from a melano father.

From my hours of research, it seems as though no one truly has cracked the code on breeding super blacks. I can’t even begin to list some of the things people have said about breeding blacks. One breeder said without a doubt that the only infertile females are melanos and that super black females are fertile. Then another said that he has bred super blacks using a melano female with a super black male. 

At this point I'm just ready to select a male and female and just go for it.

Here are some pictures of what I want to accomplish.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

Here are my black males. Two were listed as super blacks. My melano has lost his butterfly tale and now has completely black fins.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

The member here Mr.Vampire has a pair of super blacks...


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

And here is one of my females. 

My other two females are super blacks but they have red tint in their fins.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

beat2020 said:


> The member here Mr.Vampire has a pair of super blacks...


Thank you, I will send him a PM. I know he has a lot of experience breeding. I'm just so frustrated because you can never get a clear answer.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

You can't go by a color name when breeding... a breeder can call any manner of black fish a "super black". To get the black you want you are talking about Melano black and have to use fish with the melano geno type. Your black lace males will not give you the no iridescence look you want. It also looks like your going to be dealing with the marble gene so you can't really know what to expect color wise.

I'm not inclined to trust a breeder who is guarded about their lines. A true lover of the fish would do his best to improve the Betta in general, which would mean being open about his line and what he uses. Look at MartinisMommy.. you can ask her any number of questions about the backgrounds of her fish and to see pictures of the parents, etc.


Anywhoo to start off with you'll want a Melano Black male with little to no irridescence and a melano geno female. From there you can select for little iridescence from the fry. Iridescence is virtually impossible to fully get rid of in a line... at least lack of iridescence has not been proven to breed true yet.

I've heard tell of people successfully breeding a melano female so that might be something to try in the future.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

A super black is actually a new development. Instead of being based on blue to get black (melano) super black uses copper to achieve the black. Super black bettas lack inridescent in the body (good thing) but they may have a tiny amount of copper in the fins, most of the time it's not noticeable.

When it comes to black you need to get blacks based on what gene the black is controlled by. Melanos can't be bred to a black lace because two different genes control the black coloring.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

All I know abou blacks is that melano is based on the iridescence,super blacks are copper based and black lace deals with the marble gene.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> *It also looks like your going to be dealing with the marble gene so you can't really know what to expect color wise.*
> 
> That's what I was afraid of.
> 
> ...


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I'd like to seem some pedigrees on those fish with notes on percentages of "super black" in the spawn. It also seems that the nomenclature is still misleading since it can be used for a melano/black lace cross as well as this copper based stuff.

The HM male first posted is a melano or melano based.. I've definitely seen enough to know one. The HMPK is misleading because of the bad picture.. it could be a super black, black lace, or melano.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> A super black is actually a new development. Instead of being based on blue to get black (melano) super black uses copper to achieve the black. Super black bettas lack inridescent in the body (good thing) but they may have a tiny amount of copper in the fins, most of the time it's not noticeable.
> 
> When it comes to black you need to get blacks based on what gene the black is controlled by. Melanos can't be bred to a black lace because two different genes control the black coloring.



Is this why some blacks have red irids? Have you heard anything about breeding super black females?

I received two super black females from Bangleanbettas and he guaranteed me that they were fertile.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I also own a pair of Black Devils...a red based black. Melano is a bit more difficult to produce because the females can be infertile.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Here is a copper based black:



As you can see they deserve the name Super Black.

My super black pair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRsSQRGDwaI


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

Black devils have red and blue in their fins no?


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

This is a different breeder. But he won't show the pics of the parents either. 

You can see all the black fry in the background. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyXM3sI6Yqg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I think so beat.

I tend to try to look at fish from a standard view. To me "red devils" are multicolors or bi-colors or blacks with red wash depending on how you want to look at it.

Super blacks are an intriguing notion but I still want to see how it is achieved exactly. It's pretty well documented about how Melano black came about... I'm trying to remember what the basis for black lace is.


ETA.. those all look like Black lace to me.. they all had the blue in between the rays except for the last video.. that fish had red wash so I assume its the copper based black.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> Here is a copper based black:
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see they deserve the name Super Black.


You're right, you can barely see the copper. 

Hopefully Martinsmommy will chime in. I know she has bred melanos, but I wonder if she has ever had a spawn that was 100% melano.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

1fish2fish said:


> I think so beat.
> 
> *I tend to try to look at fish from a standard view. To me "red devils" are multicolors or bi-colors or blacks with red wash depending on how you want to look at it.*
> 
> Super blacks are an intriguing notion but I still want to see how it is achieved exactly. It's pretty well documented about how Melano black came about... I'm trying to remember what the basis for black lace is.


I agree with you on that one...To me black devils are pretty much multis.

I would also like to know more on how the super blacks came about ...


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> I think so beat.
> 
> 
> Super blacks are an intriguing notion but I still want to see how it is achieved exactly. It's pretty well documented about how Melano black came about... I'm trying to remember what the basis for black lace is.
> ...


Yeah, I'm thinking with a spawn that size that maybe two or three are true super blacks. It's funny because you can inquire about any other color and people will share their findings openly with you. But there is something about this super black that remains elusive.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

I think you are right Beat.

As pretty as this fish is, it's still a multi.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

When it comes down to it Black Devil and Red Devil are just names.. I could call the fish in my avatar blue frog if I wanted to and sell his fry as such as long as they had a little blue on them somewhere.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Anything labeled "devil" is basicly a fish with wash in the fins. Like 1fish2fish said you can name a strain whatever you want but unless you're a well known breeder strain names are pointless.

I'll have to do some digging...but I know Chaba will tell me what creates a super black.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

I really like the black color in the body of that fish...I wonder if breeders could work with that strain and get rid of the red (and sometimes blue) in the finnage.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

LOL. So true. But you have to give the breeders credit, they are creative. Just look at "Batman". The name alone made me curious. And he went for $400.


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

beat2020 said:


> I really like the black color in the body of that fish...I wonder if breeders could work with that strain and get rid of the red (and sometimes blue) in the finnage.



I have heard that red is extremely hard to breed out. If you think about it, eliminating the red and blue in the fins would give you a super black. Which is probably what the breeder was going for to begin with.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Here's my knowledge on the black colors:

Melano: Iridescent based black
Super black: copper based black
Black devil: red based black

Lace and Ice..not sure.

But each black carries different genes...a super black and a devil won't get you black. 

*Does anyone else notice this is this forums first thread about genetics hehe*


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

MrVampire181 said:


> Here's my knowledge on the black colors:
> 
> Melano: Iridescent based black
> Super black: copper based black
> ...


Lace are marble based blacks I believe...


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

That's what i was thinking. Then there's Ice and Orchid.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

ARGGGGHH.... I can't stand how secretive the IBC is. Trying to find back issues of flare or articles on genetics is basically impossible. Member's shouldn't have to purchase the TA library just to read the articles and I have no clue where to find old issues of FLARE!... there's got to be some information on breeding blacks.. why's it got to be so darn hard to locate.

/rant

Anyways... I can't really find any more info on black genetics besides what's been posted.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Confirmed marble on the Lace.

Faith's fish:









































































All fish are from the same line.



> Once upon a time, I had a strain called " crystal" which was a black strain that threw some white bettas as well. This strain comes from marbles, and will throw white crystals as well as possibly a variety of marbled bettas.


@1fish2fish I know right! We get access to everything else but we have to pay for the TA?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I haven't worked with much other than green and copper. Recently I've tried dragons and their color outcomes are confusing - even current copper result differently compared to their genetics 3 yrs ago.

From what I came up with, I conclude that the super black was produced in the attempt to create black dragons. Thus they mixed melano's with dragons and coppers - which carry some sort of red, metallic, and other genes

I disagree that blacks (whatever kind) need marble genes. In fact I believe the marble ruins the black in general and makes it colorless. IMO the marble and butterfly gene (or pheno or whatever) is used to create a unique color combo. I agree with MrV that super black may be copper based - I get a number of black .... melano like .... from my copper to copper and copper to yellow dragon - which means that they have been regularly crossed. ... also a lot of marbles mainly in the black ones (I don't know what this means).

Given that super blacks aren't true melano's (more of a melano-copper geno), thus the females shouldn't be infertile. So you can trust whoever selling super black females who claims that they're fertile..... but then again I'm not sure. One thing you can be sure of is that if the super black is a new color variation, you won't get too many of them in your fry unless, of course, you use 2 super black parents. You might get more in F2 or F3..... again not sure - waiting to do F2.

I must emphasize the fact that this is only my opinion and thus is NOT necessarily true - still trying to understand the genetic make up in general.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Basicly black can be achieved by a lot of different genes....red, marble, iridescent, copper. I find black devils to have a more intense black color to them...and they have obviously inherited the agression from the red (the night I set up my import tank they were floating but the bags sank and the female go through and she had shredded fins and open bloody wounds by morning). IMO a breeder should choose one black to work with and avoid all other black crosses in that line.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm sorry about your black female!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

dramaqueen said:


> I'm sorry about your black female!


 She's fine now...I'm worried about the male now lol she's feisty.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

MrVampire181 said:


> IMO a breeder should choose one black to work with and avoid all other black crosses in that line.


Agreed 100%.

Everyone knows that I'm not particularly fond of creating new colors. I think breeders should stick with the current colors and try to improve those colors and improve form and finnage instead of trying to always create the next best thing. I find this to be ESPECIALLY true for new breeders. We shouldn't be trying to create something new when we don't even have the knowledge base to do so effectively.

I'd much rather see breeders trying to bring back some of these colors that are in jeopardy, like irrid blues and non-irrid reds, cambodians, etc.

It's like I always say, color is always secondary to form. Breed for form first then color.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

1f2f- I completely agree with you. I think breeders should focus on form and finnage and then color. However, that being said, I have been thinking about working with a new strain. I was thinking either melanos (This thread inspired me lol) or like you said, one of those colors that are in jeopardy. With of course, show quality form and finnage.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

1fish2fish...I agree 100% with you! There's a lot of great things being produced by color breeders but there's quite a few colors that need to be worked on. Of course fins and form first...color last.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> ... IMO a breeder should choose one black to work with and avoid all other black crosses in that line.


Although this thread is about breeding superblack, what about the classic melano? 
We know that melano black bettas produce infertile melano females. How would you avoid a cross to another type of black? As we know, the old way was to cross a melano to a steel female carrying melano. Not that long ago, steel iridescence was changed from a minor to major fault in black bettas. What would you do? It seems that you are almost forced to cross to either doubleblack(with marble) or superblack(with metallic) if you don't want to be majorly faulted for color. It seems unavoidable. I totally agree that form and finnage is more important than color if you are breeding for show. Sadly, some very experienced
breeders will cull an entire spawn that has excellent color with very poor finnage. Perhaps it is secretly each betta breeder's fantasy to create their own unique hm line. Although it can take years or even a lifetime of work and research, that dream can become a reality. Why not?


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