# The Cosber Experiment



## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

After many days spent researching between math problems and a partial attempt, I've decided to start breeding. I have read almost every spawn log about different methods and am working out a plan of where to put the breeding pair. (My options are rehoming my sorority to free up the ten gallon, or use a tub after scouring it down with the hose outside. Either plan involves the tub, though I'm leaning more towards the tub since it A. is larger than the ten gallon, B. can give me another excuse to clean my room a bit more and C. can actually have a purpose. The only downside is that it is red. I can't find my clear tub, but I WILL FIND IT)
So I experimented with conditioning (as it was recommended in three websites, another forum, and in the tropical fish book I have) with my halfmoon and my Delta. Now I'm trying my VT female (shame on me) and my multicolor CT (double shame).
Am I doing this for fun? Partially. But like I said, I have a plan. My friend has a vinegar eel culture /and/ a brine shrimp culture. I forget whether she has something that eats them or if she's just experimenting...I should ask again. Anyway, I'm making a trade: the best fry for baby betta food. Call me Tonto.
Yesterday was Day 1 in conditioning. I decided to use Ember because she's 1. a bum 2. very pretty and 3. not a sorority girl by any means. So I figured, who's meaner than Ember to give her a taste of her own medicine?
Jaws was out, as was Frankie. They were also VTs. Chess has been sick (poor baby) and Ember could eat Tsu and Cas (literally, I'm pretty sure they're both babies). The only one I could use is, you guessed it, my CT males Cosmos or Sam. But Sam isn't as big as Cosmos and Ember is bigger than he is.
"But Jaws, why didn't you use any of your CT girls?"
They're all too small. Ember is the only "logical" choice. Besides, I really wanna see a combtail and a combtail is my friend's favorite tailtype. So I figured, hey, why not? Cosmos is pretty, Ember is red, together, they'll have a weird batch of fry.
"But don't you know how much bettas can create? IN ONE SPAWN?!"
Yeah, I do, and I'm prepared. First spawns aren't as big as the others. The female can assist in eating spawn, and the spawn will even cannibalize each other (as I read from someone else's spawn log). I'm banking on those, and I can cull (even though I really really really don't want to, but what's the point in having fry people don't want?).
And you've guessed it. I've asked around and found five people willing to take fry off my hands once they're big enough to eat on their own (two of them being my own siblings, but so long as they're not in my room, not my problem, and not being used to spawn more, I'm good, because chances are, I'm going to get frustrated. A lot).
However, if Cosmos and Ember don't spawn, I've discovered my sorority works well with four females, so long as those four are Nova, Luna, Solus, and Finigan. I have another VT up my sleeve, and guess who's her size.
Anyone wanna see what'll happen if a VT and a DTHM fall in love? I do.
What's with all the VTs? I dunno, honestly, but it's probably because my VTs are the biggest females I've got right now and they match up pretty nicely with some of my females (Sorry, Cas. Maybe next time).
I'm also hoping to sell the fry too. Unless flags start waving, the plan is to condition for two weeks or until Ember starts getting eggy, whichever comes first. I will transfer them into the tub or in the ten gallon (please be the tub) and let nature take its course. Then I will nurture and love the fry for as long as I can before they start frustrating me so I can hurry off to college and then hurry back home, regretting leaving them behind.
I'll keep Cosmos in there for as long as the fry aren't free-swimming.
If babies look like pinecones, I'll cull them immediately when I find them or feed them to Nova, but if the rest of the fry learn from Frankie, they'll eat the damaged fry and move on with their lives.
Natural selection. Breed to succeed, survival of the fittest.
I may sound cold about this, but I'm trying so hard not to get attached, because I know I'll keep them all.
I'll show the future parents down below (in their viewing bowls where I take pictures of them and release them back home where they can then proceed to give me stink-eye so they don't hide behind any decoration, even though you can see plant and rocks in there so they can hide if my scary phone stresses them out and so the rocks and gems look a little bit like what they have in their own homes...just smaller and not as fun)
I call this, The Cosber Experiment.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

This morning hardly any activity, though Cosmos did flare at her a bit and she flared back, but then he went to investigate the bottom of the CONDITIONING TANK (complete with divider Cosmos tried to bite through last night). I also got more pictures of them this morning:


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

Left them in the divided tank all night. Cosmos was building a nest (and not a very good one, but the one in his tank is better and pretty impressive) and Ember was patrolling her side of the tank. They don't really flare at each other anymore (sigh) but at least Cosmos is noticing her enough to think "hey, I should build a nest".

I see a lot of people just putting the male and female together instead of introducing them several times daily. I like that idea, buuut...I'll have to do some creative rearranging now that my room's floor is crowded with my bunny cage and my guinea pig cage -_-

I'm lucky that my brothers want to help out because with college and life stuff (not to mention depression and my mom climbing up on my back about little things) I don't think I would have bothered if it was just me doing it. But both brothers want a portion of the fry and I know my brother who just lost his Seaspray is looking for a new buddy.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

I saw eggs in Ember this morning (YAY) only Cosmos was...behind schedule. No bubble nest for two days from being in the spawning tub (he's not used to so much swimming space. All he was doing this morning was swim the perimeter). Sooooo...I put him back in his tank and released Ember into the spawning tub and left her to wander


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

Still no bubble nest. Everything else is gearing to go and Cosmos is holding up the whole operation. Thinking about dumping the water in the tank and starting relatively over with a new male and maybe a new female, but I'll give him a couple more hours and then reintroduce Ember


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## Catthebetta (Apr 17, 2015)

Let me retry.

You're going to breed, intend on leaving both the male and female IN the spawn tank to EAT the fry, and hoping that some people will take fry?

You're going to breed two fish you likely got from a pet store, with no genetic background, different tail types, all for fun?

Do you understand the risk to your fish?


I don't understand at all why you're doing what you're doing. We breed for a goal, not just for fun. You're not only putting your fish at risk, but not being a responsible breeder by leaving the parents in to eat the fry. You can't bank on other people supporting you, you need to be ready and available with your own fry. culture your own food, because you'll never know when something will go wrong. It's not fair to your fish.

if you're going to breed, get a real breeding pair of the same tail type. Breed something people want, that way you can make back a small portion of what you've spent.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm really not into the money business. I'm not interested in gaining back what I lost (but I probably should because heck, money), and I get that I won't get A-grade fry. This is an experiment, really. I was thinking about crossing my VTs together this afternoon and completely start over, and I may if I keep thinking about it, only there's a lot of VTs out there, you know? But thanks. I'll look at my options again and see what I have.


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## Catthebetta (Apr 17, 2015)

The problem here is that you won't even get D grade fry, ALL of them will be culls. Crossing VT to anything other then VT will result in almost 100% 'trash' fry. Crossing CT to VT is even worse. You have fish with long, thin caudals with whispy rays hanging off, it's the least appealing cross.

This really isn't me being harsh, this is me trying to explain that you're going to be losing a lot from this. Allowing the parents to stay in the fry tank will result in dead parents. It's overall a very irresponsible decision to begin with.

It's better to read up on it, get a GOOD breeding pair, and actually enjoy the results that you can get. This is coming from a semi-new breeder(myself) who almost made the mistake of breeding a VT to a really really nice HMPK, but changed my mind once someone told me of the results. 

Make plans. We breed to improve our fish. Health, visual appeal ect. They aren't like guppies where they just breed on their own. I've had males kill females, females kill males. 

Not to mention if you don't personally grow out the entire batch of fry without letting the parents cull, you could end up losing any of the fish that had potential to begin with, because they were too small to tell at the time.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

UPDATE:

Took out Cosmos, dumped the spawn tub, filled it back up, added conditioner, waited for ten minutes, added Jaws and left Ember in her tank that I've had in there. Jaws is my blue VT that I was told not to pair with another VT but the heck do I know. I only researched every day for about a month.

Anyway, he's the one I wanted to breed from the start due to his marbling. He's my best bubble blower, besides Chess (Can't do him either. He's a Delta). I kind of wanted Frankie because he's a butterfly and a very pretty blue, but Jaws makes better nests by far.

He /immediately/ started flaring as expected and I'm going to leave him in there all night and see if there's a nest.


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## Catthebetta (Apr 17, 2015)

Sigh...
What about Chess and Solas? Do you still have them? It looked like Solas might be female but I can't confirm that. They'd look to be a much better pairing then a VT spawn.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

A Halfmoon with a Delta?


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

Isn't that still mixing tailtypes?


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

A lot of deltas are fish from halfmoon genetic backgrounds that don't end up being 180 degrees. Even with two perfect halfmoon parents, not all the fry will reach the tail spread. So breeding HM x DeT is probably the most forgiving if you do not have two halfmoons.

CT x VT is usually a big no-no because you are almost guaranteed to end up with messy finnage. And CT with anything else is not recommended unless you have a great CT to start and your goal is specifically "halfsuns" or CTPKs.

And this part isn't directly related to breeding, (maybe fry rearing?), but CT fins are also incredibly difficult to maintain because they are most prone to fin curling. And if they get any damage, the rays rarely ever grow back evenly.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Sorry, Jaws, but I have to agree with Cat & Feng. VT x Anything and CT x Anything is a big no-no, for the reasons stated above. All you are doing is contributing to the amount of petstore "mutts" in death cups. Trust me; when people see the finnage of CT x HM or CT x VT, the bettas will go straight down the toilet, maybe literally. And why pay $5 for a VT + shipping, when I (or you, for that matter) can go to PetCo/Smart and buy one for $3.99?


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## Catthebetta (Apr 17, 2015)

Yes, half moon x Delta is far, far better then CT x VT. 
The female I used for my first spawn wasn't full HM, and I have had three OHM males come out of the spawn. If you're very good at jarring and Flaring multiple times a day, you'd be surprised what you can get. Deltas are half moons that didn't reach half moon. Not many people purposefully breed deltas to get deltas. 

Hm x Delta might actually produce something that would be worth breeding towards.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

After a long annoyance-filled night, I switched Jaws with Frankie. I wanted marble fry, but who can say no to butterflies? (apparently me, because I bought Brooke instead of the red butterfly VT that was there). And off I went to college. We were going hiking the next day (today) and figured if Frankie built a nest by the end of the day, then we would be in business. If not, I was going to dump the water out, toss the leaves and forget about breeding for a couple weeks.
Today was still annoying, partly because my speeding mother left me behind (multiple times) and when I asked her to obey the speed limit, she said that she was just going to go home instead of hike with us (I knew she wouldn't). So I extended our trip of two hours to four, and would you look at that, Mom came hiking down to find us.
Our new dog barked at every dog she saw and growled a bit, pulled my skin into blisters and popped them at the same instant (ow), but I can't say it wasn't worth it, even if I do have a headache and my feet hurt, because once I got home and remembered Frankie was in there, I bolted up the stairs....
And there was a sizable nest. Heck yes. I released Ember and answered the call of my name (dogs needed feeding and the person standing /right next to the food bag/ couldn't do it).
While my brother sat shotgun in the Hum-Drum-Vee and not the Fun-Vee, I told him what a bad nester Frankie was, and he looked at me and wondered why I had even put him in there then.
"Maybe if I say the opposite of what I want him to do, then he'll do it."
We also agreed that if any breeding was to take place after this, it was my brother's duty, and he wants Solus either for Chess or for his DTHM.

Also, I need to clear this up because it's been bugging me:

I didn't say I was going to keep the male and female in there while there was spawn in the tub. After the fry are free swimming, Frankie goes back into his tank. Ember gets taken out after they spawn. I heard that the female, after spawning, and before someone could remove her, she would eat eggs.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

So after dropping my phone into the spawning tub and almost frying it, Frankie did some more building. They didn't spawn last night, but we got really close. Ember would go under there, change her mind as soon as Frankie swam up, and then the chasing would begin again. My brother and I were getting loopy real fast due to it closing in at midnight. "Gurl, your fish is stupid" "Which one?" "The one with the fins" "Oh yeah, I know" and so on. But sometime this week they should spawn.

Below is a picture of the future father and bonus pictures of the next spawning pair in a million years or when I feel like going about this again. Whichever comes first.


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

UPDATE: Experiment discontinued after 1. Frankie was being a dingus, 2. All but three of my females died (note I had seven), and 3. I lapsed into depression. But I'll be retrying and will post my results when that happens.


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## Catthebetta (Apr 17, 2015)

How did they die! I'm so sorry


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## JawsandChess (Apr 16, 2016)

I don't know. I had the water tested and there was a little bit of an ammonia spike, but the manager (who owns tanks of his own) said it wouldn't have killed them off so fast. I thought maybe Brooke and Solus got into a fight, but I was thinking about it on the way home. Brooke had her head in a pot. Solus was laying on her side. Luna was in the pot, and Nova...Nova I tried to save. I took her out of the ten g and put her back in her tank and set her by my head with a light on her and some sprinkles of triple sulfa (magic powder). She was dead in the morning, as was Luna. Only Finigan remains of the sorority and I'm holding onto her. I was devestated, and it didn't help when I got several "I told you so"s from friends/people in general because "sorority girls fight, too", and I knew that. But Solus and her group were different. They acted like a family, and family has spats, sure, but this was different...After I noticed Solus' paling body, I watched her and nothing seemed out of place. Luna was feeding her, Nova was swimming by her, Finigan was swimming around them like a sentry...I just..it doesn't make sense..but the ten g isn't going to stay empty. I got a new DTHM the other day (and contrary to my little brother's belief, it will not go to Tsu and Cas) and I kinda wanna stick him in there with some tankmates. My little brother thinks that since Cas is a sucky swimmer and Tsunami isn't aggressive "they can be buddies and live together!" XD He cracks me up sometimes. I'm just imaging poor Cas laying on his side, flaring at Tsu who would rather investigate the rocks and the plants.


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