# Looking for a gravel-cleaning fish



## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

I have five guppies and one betta in a ten gallon with silk plants. I have one moss ball, getting some live floating plants. The thing is, though the guppies are great and my betta finds them entertaining, they are _messy_
I need a fish or some critter that will eat up the flakes that fall to the bottom, and just generally helps keep the water clean. I was looking into a trio of pygmy cories, but found out that they would add more bioload to the tank then my ten could handle. Any ideas?? I just need a simple, small, easy-to -care-for critter that will keep things tidy. I am going nuts wanting to do constant water changes. Every time I feed the fish more flakes fall and get stuck in the gravel, and the guppies only manage to pick up, like half of what falls. :shock:

Thanks!


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

> I need a fish or some critter that will eat up the flakes that fall to the bottom, and just generally helps keep the water clean.


First let me start by saying keeping the tank clean is the fish keepers job.

Now.
You could try snails. While they will add to your bio load, they are great for cleaning up that sort of stuff, To me no snail is a pest unless it eats the plants. I am a huge fan of Mystery Snails, My Loaches just love pond snail for dinner.

Aren’t they cute.












> Every time I feed the fish more flakes fall and get stuck in the gravel,


Are you over feeding? Try giving them just a bit at a time, In my Live Bearer tank food never hits the bottom. 

Also are you feeding the Betta flake food? Just my opinion, Betta pellets would be betta. I feed mine new life spectrum thera, Hikari bio gold Attisons betta pro. And of course Live food like crickets maggots moths plus a range of frozen stuff like blood worm brine shrimp. She never eats the same thing 2 days in a row.



> The thing is, though the guppies are great and my betta finds them entertaining,


My Betta found Rasboras entertaining too, Then she, YES she built a bubble nest and no longer found them entertaining, I had to take them out of the tank as she was attacking them if they got too close. Luckily she finds my Kuhli Loaches amusing.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

+1 What he said. If food is hitting the bottom you are feeding too much. Guppies are top feeders. I feed my Endlers Livebearers and Dwarf Panda Guppies Hikari Fancy Guppy food. It is tiny and floats.

Assassin snails don't have much of a bioload and will eat leftover food. However, they should get a frozen bloodworm or pest snail on occasion.


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## LittleRed (Jul 27, 2015)

If your problem is left over food and you don't want to add to the bioload, I would suggest feeding less, and using a turkey baster to carefully remove any left over food.

If it is more to do with algae, I suggest snails.
I recently brought a long nosed snail for my 1.5g, which was starting to look unsightly, and 'Gonzo' had the tank cleaned up within 3 days. I have to use a turkey baster daily to remove all the extra waste he produces though. But over all, the tanks looking loads better


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

> If your problem is left over food and you don't want to add to the bioload, I would suggest feeding less,


I agree.

Snails while increasing the bio load have the added benefit of converting left over fish food into something the good bacteria and plants can eat faster than having rotting food in and on the substrate. This also applies to fish waste.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Thank you all for your input! I’m still on the fence with what I should do. Are their any types of cories that would do good in my ten, small enough to not add to much to the bioload while still cleaning up leftovers? I have cut back on feeding, and it seems to be helping.
I feed my guppies tropical flakes, brine shrimp and bloodworms. They seem to do fine on it.
I think I will get one or two snails one way or another.

Thanks!


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## bandit1994 (Sep 24, 2015)

in my neno tank which is 5.5 I have a ramhorn snail and two nerite snails and two corys before yall get mad I have been working with neno tanks for over fives years I have it set right so I can house three guppies three Rasboras hets and a lamp eye tera along with the snails and corys


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

bandit1994 said:


> in my neno tank which is 5.5 I have a ramhorn snail and two nerite snails and two corys before yall get mad I have been working with neno tanks for over fives years I have it set right so I can house three guppies three Rasboras hets and a lamp eye tera along with the snails and corys



I'm more concerned about the fact that they don't have proper schools as opposed to the tank size. 

Anyway

OP, have you considered switching to sand? Everything just sits on top so even if it sinks, my fish can find it.


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *bandit1994*
> _in my neno tank which is 5.5 I have a ramhorn snail and two nerite snails and two corys before yall get mad I have been working with neno tanks for over fives years I have it set right so I can house three guppies three Rasboras hets and a lamp eye tera along with the snails and corys_





> I'm more concerned about the fact that they don't have proper schools as opposed to the tank size.


I couldn't have said it better.


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## bandit1994 (Sep 24, 2015)

I am trying my best its hard to make a good school I cant upgrade to a ten gal but is there any way for me to fix my misstak with out losing any fish I have the know how I even run a ten gal filter on my tank I just want to do what is best for my fish I feel sorry for my finbabys I know that they are schooling fish but would making the right size school hurt my fish I don't want to hurt them


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

bandit1994 said:


> I am trying my best its hard to make a good school I cant upgrade to a ten gal but is there any way for me to fix my misstak with out losing any fish I have the know how I even run a ten gal filter on my tank I just want to do what is best for my fish


Rehome or upgrade are your two options.


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## bandit1994 (Sep 24, 2015)

what size do I need to upgrade to I will upgrade asap I just need sometime will the 5.5 do for alittle wile till I can save up to get a bigger tank I am doing like 50% water chages about how long would the 5.5 be ok for


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> I have five guppies and one betta in a ten gallon with silk plants. I have one moss ball, getting some live floating plants. The thing is, though the guppies are great and my betta finds them entertaining, they are _messy_
> I need a fish or some critter that will eat up the flakes that fall to the bottom, and just generally helps keep the water clean. I was looking into a trio of pygmy cories, but found out that they would add more bioload to the tank then my ten could handle. Any ideas?? I just need a simple, small, easy-to -care-for critter that will keep things tidy. I am going nuts wanting to do constant water changes. Every time I feed the fish more flakes fall and get stuck in the gravel, and the guppies only manage to pick up, like half of what falls. :shock:
> 
> Thanks!


Never rely on any fish or invert to do the job you're supposed to do. There are already detritus worms under your substrate, and their job is to act as little composters. They are part of the little echo system in every freshwater tank, so they're supposed to be there. It's your job to take up their slack by using a gravel cleaner to finish cleaning what they don't get. A gravel vac keeps their numbers in check and keeps detritus and rotting organics from building up in the substrate.

Feed the appropriate amount and do proper tank maintenance.

Turkey basters are not meant for gravel substrate. Those are for sand substrate and tanks without substrate. Gravel vacs are for cleaning gravel.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Strawberry12 said:


> I'm more concerned about the fact that they don't have proper schools as opposed to the tank size.
> 
> Anyway
> 
> OP, have you considered switching to sand? Everything just sits on top so even if it sinks, my fish can find it.


Would that be better? I totally could.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Mousie said:


> Never rely on any fish or invert to do the job you're supposed to do. There are already detritus worms under your substrate, and their job is to act as little composters. They are part of the little echo system in every freshwater tank, so they're supposed to be there. It's your job to take up their slack by using a gravel cleaner to finish cleaning what they don't get. A gravel vac keeps their numbers in check and keeps detritus and rotting organics from building up in the substrate.
> 
> Feed the appropriate amount and do proper tank maintenance.
> 
> Turkey basters are not meant for gravel substrate. Those are for sand substrate and tanks without substrate. Gravel vacs are for cleaning gravel.



I was never intending to get a fish that cleans the gravel so I wouldn’t have to do it, of course. ;-) I was just wondering about the wasted food for the most part. Today I am going to a large fish store. I am going to look at a gravel cleaner, some live plants and such. They have really cheap, pretty and healthy pygmy cories, so ‘m tempted....Probably just looking today, though.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

I put in 4 pygmy cories, one betta and my guppies into Aqua adviser, and it said I would be 1019% stocked. Not sure.
Anyways, I have two filters in my tank now. Added the old one from the 3.5 gall. Seems to be fine. They are both on one side of the tank so they aren’t bugging Sam.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> +1 What he said. If food is hitting the bottom you are feeding too much. Guppies are top feeders. I feed my Endlers Livebearers and Dwarf Panda Guppies Hikari Fancy Guppy food. It is tiny and floats.
> 
> Assassin snails don't have much of a bioload and will eat leftover food. However, they should get a frozen bloodworm or pest snail on occasion.


I have started feeding less, and so far the amount of falling food has substantially lessened. Thanks for the tip!


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## RNHime (Mar 12, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> I have started feeding less, and so far the amount of falling food has substantially lessened. Thanks for the tip!


I remember when I finally figured out that I was overfeeding my neons (new to tetras). What a difference!

If you still want a little extra cleanup, maybe glass shrimp or a single nerite snail? If the snail is only cleaning up leftovers & algae they don't produce that much waste, and they don't reproduce. I love mine for how clean they keep our decor and glass!

Sand substrate or even a smaller gravel (CaribSea makes some, like their Peace Rive blend) is far cleaner than standard aquarium gravel, IMO.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Sweet! I was checking out my current gravel, which is pretty good. I like it alright, but have the feeling a switch is in order.

So thoughts on adding any more fish? (Pygmys, ect.) I think I can get a nirite snail today....


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> I put in 4 pygmy cories, one betta and my guppies into Aqua adviser, and it said I would be 1019% stocked. Not sure.


Yes, so that would be very very over stocked. Not to mention those cory need to be in groups of no less than 5 to 6. The more in the group the safer they feel and the less stressed they are. 



ShadeSlayer said:


> Anyways, I have two filters in my tank now. Added the old one from the 3.5 gall. Seems to be fine. They are both on one side of the tank so they aren’t bugging Sam.


Excellent. Now you'll have a second filter fully colonized with nitrifying bacteria should you decide to build another 3.5 gallon tank. 



ShadeSlayer said:


> So thoughts on adding any more fish? (Pygmys, ect.)


Not without getting a larger tank, no.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

So I went to my LFS and they had overstocked pygmies. they had like fifty in a ten gal, but they were all super small, still young. The guy I talked to said I could put them in my ten for a week or two while the filter for the 3.5 gallon cycles, as long as I do frequent water changes. Then I could put them in the 3.5 if necessary while I 
*Surprise* work on getting a new tank!
I think I am getting a five gallon for my birthday. I will put the cories in there, and maybe with sam. That way the guppies can have a whole ten since the breed like rabbits. If the ten gets to crowded, I will put Sam in the new five with the cories. So, for two weeks or so my ten is going to be a little overstocked. When I get the five I’ll put the filter for the 3.5 in it, since it will already be cycled. I feel bad abut overstocking, but this IS temporary.
So last night since they quarantine at the store for two weeks before getting put in the sellers tank, I acclimated my new cories and let them in/. They went into Sam’s mountain, where he was sleeping, which made me nervous. But again, surprise! Sam loves the cories. He actually let them hag out with him in there for the night, which is huge because he hardly lets the guppies near it. I saw all four cories hanging out on either side of him in the entrance to the mountain. Wish I would’ve got pics for you guys, but it was the SWEETEST thing.
So, yeah, I know its overstocked, but I am really trying to work with that.

Thanks!


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Oh, wiht the Aqua Advisor thing, it said 119% stocked, not 1019%. Sorry about the typo!! Is it still very overstocked? The four cories I got are doing fine, they actually come up and school a little with the guppies.


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

ShadeSlayer said:


> Oh, wiht the Aqua Advisor thing, it said 119% stocked, not 1019%. Sorry about the typo!! Is it still very overstocked? The four cories I got are doing fine, they actually come up and school a little with the guppies.


Yes, still way over stocked. 100% is the maximum limit. Generally I do stocking at 90% to 95% and then stop there. Also keep in mind that while AQ Adviser is a wonderful resource, it should only be used as a guide and you should do further research on your own (which you are because you're here).

Something you need to understand about the tanks at local fish stores. They get new stock in once a week because most of the fish have been purchased. So while those tanks are over stocked, they're only overstocked long enough for someone to purchase the fish. By the following week there's new fish in there.

Never ever listen to the advice from employees at those fish stores. They're hired to make sales and nothing more. If any of them had even the remotest of a clue you would never see a dirty tank, sick fish, or dead fish in their stores. It's extremely rare to run across an employee who genuinely knows what they're talking about. You'll find the majority of aquarists on all of the different fish forums that will tell you the same thing.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Cories have totally different requirements as far as numbers than Guppies. Minimum on shoaling fish like the Cories is six with 10+ best. Because they are so small the dwarf Cories in particular need this larger number. Having fewer than six is not really fair to the Cories.

I have found Aqadvisor is a great guide but only a guide and it tends to be very conservative. That being said, "overstocked" doesn't always mean you need to add filtration. It also means not enough swimming room to accommodate the selected species. Check your filtration capacity on AA; if it is over 100% then your fish need more space as opposed to filtration. The minimum filtration I have on my tanks is over 700.

As an aside, it could be that Sam tolerates the Cories better than the Guppies because the Guppies are too active. When I first started I had Guppies and Betta together and the Betta that were much more comfortable when I removed the Guppies. Then I densely planted the tank, added the Guppies back and the activity of the Guppies dropped and so did the stress on my Betta.

Did you get more plants? Can you post a photo?


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> "overstocked" doesn't always mean you need to add filtration. It also means not enough swimming room to accommodate the selected species. Check your filtration capacity on AA; if it is over 100% then your fish need more space as opposed to filtration. The minimum filtration I have on my tanks is over 700.


100% agree.

Another way to look at it: A tiny 1 bedroom house would be overcrowded if you put 2 families in there. Even if you add 1 more bathroom (more filtration) you are still overcrowded.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

Mousie said:


> Yes, still way over stocked. 100% is the maximum limit. Generally I do stocking at 90% to 95% and then stop there. Also keep in mind that while AQ Adviser is a wonderful resource, it should only be used as a guide and you should do further research on your own (which you are because you're here).
> 
> Something you need to understand about the tanks at local fish stores. They get new stock in once a week because most of the fish have been purchased. So while those tanks are over stocked, they're only overstocked long enough for someone to purchase the fish. By the following week there's new fish in there.
> 
> Never ever listen to the advice from employees at those fish stores. They're hired to make sales and nothing more. If any of them had even the remotest of a clue you would never see a dirty tank, sick fish, or dead fish in their stores. It's extremely rare to run across an employee who genuinely knows what they're talking about. You'll find the majority of aquarists on all of the different fish forums that will tell you the same thing.


Ooh, gotcha on the fishstore employees. Still to new to tell when they’re just talking or if they actually know something.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Cories have totally different requirements as far as numbers than Guppies. Minimum on shoaling fish like the Cories is six with 10+ best. Because they are so small the dwarf Cories in particular need this larger number. Having fewer than six is not really fair to the Cories.
> 
> I have found Aqadvisor is a great guide but only a guide and it tends to be very conservative. That being said, "overstocked" doesn't always mean you need to add filtration. It also means not enough swimming room to accommodate the selected species. Check your filtration capacity on AA; if it is over 100% then your fish need more space as opposed to filtration. The minimum filtration I have on my tanks is over 700.
> 
> ...


Yeah, i noticed that AA tends to be pretty conservative. (Not that thats a bad thing ) 
I bought some e more plants, yeah. I have twelve medium sized silk plants, one large, leafy silk floating plant, Sam’s mountain, and a moss ball. I’m still collecting plants about every time I hit petco, though. 
The cories seem pretty relaxed in my tank, more so then I expected. the hang out with sam a lot, so my plan is getting a new five or ten gal and giving the current ten to the guppies. Then Sam can hang out with the coreis and not worry about the guppies. They don’t bug him too much, but I think he likes the cories better. When I get a new tank, could i get another two cories in a five or have to up it to a ten for that?

Tanks so much for your help, guys. I really appreciate it.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

You need a minimum of six; that number will work in a 10. However, I like odd numbers so I would have at least seven.

_How many_ you can stock depends on inhabitant bioload, filtration and swim space. You can have more dwarf cory in a tank than Guppies because of bioload and species size. 

_What_ you can stock depends on their parameter and water flow needs. Some species don't do well unless there is discernable current and many people baffle filters in Betta tanks way, way too low. That's why I like internal filters with spray bars in Betta community tanks.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

I like internal filters, too. i have one internal and one waterfall in my ten at the moment, since I’m cycling the internal one for a future tank.I will try to get another ten and more cories. They seem to be fine and happy right now, but i’m sure they would like more friends. The more the merrier!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Maybe you could see if your parents would let you have a 20 long. IMO, the best size for budding aquarists. ;-)


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

I think they would be okay for it as long as I can keep it on my dresser. A twnety long would work, i think.


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## hannat (Oct 9, 2014)

Quick question on snails- how good are they at climbing silk plants? I just scrubbed the algae off of my decor which I regret doing because I was considering getting either a Mystery snail or a Nerite. I do however have quite a lot of algae growing on the leaves of my silk plants. My live plants are clean for now. I also have Hikari algae wafers from a previous snail.


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## ShadeSlayer (Jul 20, 2015)

i think they are okay at climbing. Not sure. Russell might know.


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

Mystery snails are fine at climbing plants, The stuff that grows on silk plants is not on a snails menu, I oce had Mystery snails and silk and live plants in a tank, can't say I ever saw the snails on the silk plants.


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## dannifluff (Jul 5, 2015)

Snails are great at climbing plants. Sometimes my assassin snails will go two at a time up a stem (one hitches a lift on the other, lol) and then they get halfway to the top and the stem will sink to the bottom again with their weight, undoing all their good work. I have one assassin snail that almost never comes down from the floating plants, since he seems to have figured out that's where the little baby snails go to hide from him. It's quite amusing.


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