# "Tancho Koi" Veiltails?



## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

I am probably getting too far ahead of myself, with how many potential breeding pairs I have thought up, but I have this male and I really does remind me of one of those "tancho koi" patterned bettas. Or maybe the red capped fancy goldfish I love. 

This is one of my favourite patterns, but I have never even seen a tancho HMPK with good form, not even on Aquabid. I guess I am not really asking for a critique (I know these picture angles aren't very good for judging anyway), but rather, would it be a worthy goal and if he is a viable starting point?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

That looks very interesting! If he keeps the pattern, why not? I'm not sure what to pair him with, though.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

What does Tancho Koi mean?


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Nimble said:


> What does Tancho Koi mean?


It is a koi pattern. Originally meant a white bodied koi with a red crest on its head.



It must be noted that this pattern occurs by chance in koi. You cannot really breed for it. I do not know the genetics for this in bettas, but I've had seen red or orange headed bettas whose colours were stable. This particular VT is probably a marble though.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Something like this? I know her red spot is more on her back than her head, but otherwise she's basically that.

That's my little girl, Sansachun. I've got a spawn of hers growing up right now. 11 little babies, just 10 days old.


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

i think she would be considered a Tancho Koi. im almost 100% sure i think its just suppose to be in front of the dorsal fin. (correct me if im wrong im not that good with kois lol) just curious what male did she breed with?


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

Fenghuang said:


> I am probably getting too far ahead of myself, with how many potential breeding pairs I have thought up, but I have this male and I really does remind me of one of those "tancho koi" patterned bettas. Or maybe the red capped fancy goldfish I love.
> 
> This is one of my favourite patterns, but I have never even seen a tancho HMPK with good form, not even on Aquabid. I guess I am not really asking for a critique (I know these picture angles aren't very good for judging anyway), but rather, would it be a worthy goal and if he is a viable starting point?



the Black orchid male looks kinda like the guy in my avatar pic. (did you get him from aquabid)


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

hrutan said:


> That looks very interesting! If he keeps the pattern, why not? I'm not sure what to pair him with, though.


I think either a DeT female or a PK female, I think those two tail types are my best bet for finding a similar female in. I find this to be most commonly found in HMPKs. The problem is navigating through all the marbles to find the stable kois...



Nimble said:


> Something like this? I know her red spot is more on her back than her head, but otherwise she's basically that.
> 
> That's my little girl, Sansachun. I've got a spawn of hers growing up right now. 11 little babies, just 10 days old.


Yeah, I think she would be considered one! The rules on this probably are not as strict as actual koi fish standards. Would be interesting to see if she marbles or how her spawn turns out. 



BettaBoy51 said:


> the Black orchid male looks kinda like the guy in my avatar pic. (did you get him from aquabid)


No, that guy is just a Petsmart find. He does looks a like your avatar, but probably not as nice. Have you bred your male?


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## BettaBoy51 (Nov 13, 2013)

No, that guy is just a Petsmart find. He does looks a like your avatar, but probably not as nice. Have you bred your male?[/QUOTE]

no not yet im going to try this weekend though. heres the pair im gonna try and do the blue orchids HMs my super black HMPK(dont know how thats gonna work cause there both so aggressive) and if that goes well hrutan's butterfly pair i got (at least the males butterfly)


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

BettaBoy51 said:


> i think she would be considered a Tancho Koi. im almost 100% sure i think its just suppose to be in front of the dorsal fin. (correct me if im wrong im not that good with kois lol) just curious what male did she breed with?


She bred with this male: 










I'm not sure what to expect from this pairing, but I suppose I am glad that my little girl is considered a Tancho.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To my understanding, that pattern doesn't breed true. Luck plays a very big role. However, I don't see why you shouldn't try creating something you love.

I have also read that koi works in a similar way as dalmations; dal x dal does not produce dal. Koi x koi does not produce koi. So perhaps you'd want to breed him to a bright red female instead. . . . not really sure as I have never worked with kois

Assuming the above is true, your first step would be crossing him to a red HMPK, preferably with excessive rays. Get the pattern to breed true, then add more red HMPK female . . . . . and so on until you reach your goal. Remember, your goal is the pattern, not the form. So you might have to forfeit form over color. In other words, it may take many generations.

Good luck.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

indjo said:


> To my understanding, that pattern doesn't breed true. Luck plays a very big role. However, I don't see why you shouldn't try creating something you love.
> 
> I have also read that koi works in a similar way as dalmations; dal x dal does not produce dal. Koi x koi does not produce koi. So perhaps you'd want to breed him to a bright red female instead. . . . not really sure as I have never worked with kois
> 
> ...


You are probably right. I do remember a breeder on here who said his koi x koi spawns never yielded any koi offspring. It is very curious if that is the case though... You would think it will be more likely the case, so many people acquire koi breeding pairing with both male and female being koi. But I think many "koi" bettas are also marbles and not just stable kois, so it makes it difficult to really determine and separate the two.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I've also heard that Koi x Koi tend to produce spawns with very few survivors, as though there's a "kill switch" and big die-offs at around 6 weeks. Since I've heard this from three different individuals, there may be merit to that particular complaint. No idea whether the breeders had related fish to indicate a specific genetic defect in a line, though.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

hrutan said:


> I've also heard that Koi x Koi tend to produce spawns with very few survivors, as though there's a "kill switch" and big die-offs at around 6 weeks. Since I've heard this from three different individuals, there may be merit to that particular complaint. No idea whether the breeders had related fish to indicate a specific genetic defect in a line, though.


Oh, I almost forgot that... Yes, I have observed that in a number of spawn logs here. Many seem to fail to thrive. But what constitutes as a koi? If you breed two marbled fish with patches of colour, are they automatically going to be at risk of producing offspring with a high mortality rate? I think there is only one way to find out.

I have a urge to go do more research on betta genetics, but I have a 17+ page economics research paper due tonight. Ugh!


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I think it may have to do with both the large, relatively stable patches combined with the number of colors involved. Maybe the genetic code is too complicated?


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Well, if what Indjo said is true, I should get some Koi from my Bright Red male HMPK paired to my Tancho Koi PK girl.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

So if I breed to the girl in the center? She is a nice deep bodied girl from my sorority. Nothing fancy, but she has balanced fins.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

He has started to marble. Unfortunately, we have had no luck getting him to hold still for a flaring profile picture. I really like the look of his pattern, but it's the marble gene, so I guess reproducing fish like this will be a lot about luck more than anything else.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm sorry, but yeah you shouldn't get your hopes up. It's worth a try though.

The red female should be better because she carries little irid while the one in the center has more which may create grizzle instead.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

indjo said:


> I'm sorry, but yeah you shouldn't get your hopes up. It's worth a try though.
> 
> The red female should be better because she carries little irid while the one in the center has more which may create grizzle instead.


Yeah, I don't want grizzles, they are too messy for my tastes. The red coloured one on the left is the one I lost. She got stuck behind overnight and drowned. I guess I will wait for a better red to come along then.


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