# I have no idea what's wrong.. is this Dropsy?



## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi guys... 

I've noticed that over the past week or so my male crowntail has been a bit more lethargic than normal. 

I haven't changed anything in his tank, I haven't added anything new... Well, I added a few plants from my 29G, but no one in that tank has been having any issues.. so I doubt it's from that. 

He's been eating fine.. but I've been fasting him for a few days because he looked a little bloated.. 

Here are my parameters

Tank size- 5 gallons
Temp- 80 F
Ammonia- 0ppm
Nitrite- 0ppm
Nitrate- 5ppm
pH- 6.8
I use Prime with every water change
I also use Vita-chem and garlic guard for food soakings on occasion
He has a nerite snail in there as well, but that guy is older than he is.

Drugs I have on hand if needed: API erythromycin, Kanaplex, API triple sulfa, Praziquel, Epson salt, AQ salt. 

I feed NLS pellets every day, and fast one day a week. Rarely, maybe a few times a month I'll offer frozen brine shrimp or daphnia


I came home last night and saw that Mr. Squiggles looks pineconed.... He looks okay from the side.. but if you look form above it's apparent. 



I took him out of his tank so I could take some pictures.








He was pooping in this one


























































This was from the side... with flash and he looks fine.. I don't get it.









Please help! I just lost a fish from a long term eye injury and really don't want to lose another


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't know anything about fish, but the raised scales do remind me of dropsy...
If you have aquarium salt on hand I should say douse him right away to try and slow the Edema, if it builds too far you wont have him long as it will cause water intoxication and shut down his kidneys.
I hope a more experienced person can help you further


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

No! *Do not dose with Aquarium salt to reduce edema!* Aquarium salt contains sodium, which causes fluid retention, AND stresses the kidneys! This is the last thing you want with a fish that is bloated and pineconing.

If anything, I recommend using *Epsom salt*. It does not contain sodium, and therefore does not contribute to bloating or cause kidney stress. In fact, it is a laxative, and reduces edema.

Pineconing and dropsy are symptoms. They are not a disease in itself. So the question is: what could be causing this?

Even in the sideview picture, where you said he looks OK, it looks to me like he is a little bloated. I would use Epsom salt as a starting point for treatment. Even if it can't treat the problem, it may help make him more comfortable. (Epsom salt also has mild antimicrobial activity, and does not affect the internal organs that way that Aquarium salt does.)

If you want to try Epsom salt, here is one way to do it. This is based on advice that Oldfishlady has recommended to people whose fish had symptoms of dropsy:

Add 3 teaspoons of Epsom salt to 1 gal of conditioned water. Mix/stir until the salt is COMPLETELY dissolved. Make sure the water is the same temp as the current tank water.
Do a series of four 25% water changes, using the treated water. Every 15-20 min, change out 25% of the current tank water, and replace with the newly treated water.
Starting tomorrow, make 50% water changes every other day. (Or more often if the fish is in a small tank.)
Keep the fish in the treated water for 10-14 days.

Also, put some plastic wrap over the top of the tank. This will provide humidity, and make it easier to breathe. There should be at LEAST an inch of air between the water and plastic wrap. (I try to leave several inches when I do this.)


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I haven't done anything yet, but agree that aq salt isn't going to help with edema/swelling.. 

I'm just stumped as to why this would randomly happen.. 

I think I'll do a massive water change, and add some epson salt.. but what would be a good dose/gallon

OH, and does epson salt hurt snails?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> No! Do not dose with Aquarium salt to reduce edema! Aquarium salt contains sodium, which causes fluid retention, AND stresses the kidneys! This is the last thing you want with a fish that is bloated and pineconing.
> 
> If anything, I recommend using *Epsom salt*. It does not contain sodium, and therefore does not contribute to bloating or cause kidney stress. In fact, it is a laxative, and reduces edema.
> 
> ...


Oh dear I named the wrong one! I apologize greatly. I mixed up my salts and typed the wrong one without realizing. I feel terrible now.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Taeanna said:


> Oh dear I named the wrong one! I apologize greatly. I mixed up my salts and typed the wrong one without realizing. I feel terrible now.




Don't feel bad! I haven't done anything yet


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

rmarkham - see the directions that I just posted. OFL's recommendation for cases like this is 3 teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon of conditioned water. (See step 1.) I'd noted that I was going to edit the post to include directions, and I've got them listed now. I just wanted to get that warning up there not to use Aq salt....

Taeanna - no problem. It got caught before anything was added, so it's OK.


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

rmarkham said:


> Don't feel bad! I haven't done anything yet


Thank goodness!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> rmarkham - see the directions that I just posted. OFL's recommendation for cases like this is 3 teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon of conditioned water. (See step 1.) I'd noted that I was going to edit the post to include directions, and I've got them listed now. I just wanted to get that warning up there not to use Aq salt....
> 
> Taeanna - no problem. It got caught before anything was added, so it's OK.


Thank you! 

Do you think that the edema could be from something as simple as him being bloated?


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Espom salt would be the first treatment to try to get the swelling down. Hang in there for more help or we can pm someone.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I did a 100% water change and added epson salt, I only did 2tsp per gallon to start.. and will keep that up for a few days.. if I don't see any change I'll up the dose to 3tsp per gallon.

I took out the nerite snail and moved him to the tank next door so he doesn't have to endure any of this. 

I'll keep you guys posted.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, when my guy became bloated, he swelled up. The Epsom salt reduced the fluid retention. 

But for your guy.... I'm more concerned about the pineconing. 

I'd put him into Epsom salt. And while waiting the 15 min or so between water changes, I'd send a quick PM to someone like Sakura8, Olympia or Callistra.... 

It looks like Olympia is online right now. You may want to contact her: http://www.bettafish.com/member.php?u=29817


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

During this process it may be best to fast your betta but if you really feel you want (or need) to feed him you might want to try *daphnia*. Frozen is typically best but freeze-dried is okay as well (though don't give too much); the reason I recommend this is because daphnia is also known as a laxative and may help ease some discomfort. Again, it might be worth fasting the fish for a few days first while he's in epsom salts to see if there are any changes.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

SpookyTooth said:


> During this process it may be best to fast your betta but if you really feel you want (or need) to feed him you might want to try *daphnia*. Frozen is typically best but freeze-dried is okay as well (though don't give too much); the reason I recommend this is because daphnia is also known as a laxative and may help ease some discomfort. Again, it might be worth fasting the fish for a few days first while he's in epsom salts to see if there are any changes.


I think I'll fast him tonight, but I do have frozen daphnia on hand just incase.. He hasn't had a frozen food treat for a while, so I'll give it a shot tomorrow for sure.


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

Great! Best of luck, it's a horrible situation to be in - I've been there too many times and still hate the sight of pineconing. There's only so much you can do but it's obvious that you're doing your best - hang in there!!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Thank you!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I have dealt with more dropsy than I would like to admit in the past few weeks (no bettas though).
I would keep up the Epsom and I would treat with Kanaplex right away. I'm slow to treat fish but even treating right away with dropsy seems to be proving futile for me, so I would jump to the strongest stuff right away now... Some would mix it into food but this would be hard with pellets and it seems debatable whether direct feeding helps much more (either way it will get inside him)... 

Note that dropsy is organ failure in most cases, but his damage doesn't look too bad just yet and may prove reversible...

How hard is your water if you know??


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I kanaplex can be hard on the kidneys.. even with no outward sign of infection I should treat?


I'd say my water is pretty hard... I have geckos, and when I mist them and the water dries it leaves some nasty water spots...

And we've had to use CLR on my shower head more than once in the past year to get water pressure back...... 

What does hard water do for fish?


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

Just as a side; epsom salt won't hurt snails as it is not NaCL it's actually magnesium sulfate. Which won't hurt plants or snails.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Kanaplex is the best medication you can use to treat dropsy symptoms because it is absorbed into the system, whereas most of the antibiotics aren't and are good only for topical infections.

Dropsy symptoms can be caused by many different conditions although the prevailing cause is often a kidney infection. But it can also be caused by a heavy load of internal parasites or in some cases without bloating even external parasites raising the scales.

In this case, I definitely agree with Olympia. Kanaplex isn't as hard on the kidneys as minocycline (AKA Maracyn Two) and in general is safe to use for dropsy symptoms. Use both in the water with the epsom salt and make a paste to coat his food with as well. Since he is pooing, he is not constipated so it's safe to feed him and in fact, the more he eats the better. In cases of bacterial infections, once they stop eating, it's all over.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

What dosage would you recommend? And for how long? I'll set him up in a QT tank tomorrow. This is all so sudden.... and random. Mr. Squiggles has been nothing but a happy healthy fish for the past several months


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he's okay at 2 tsps of epsom salt, leave him at that. Kanaplex . . . it's 1 scoop per 5 gallons, so you can eyeball it. I was told by Seachem that half a scoop was okay for 1 gal although I usually put in 1/4 scoop. 

It is possible he could have some internal parasites as well, since his poo looked slightly off. But it seems more likely that he's got an infection. It's safe to leave him in the Kanaplex for up to 14 days or two treatment courses. 

I believe Kanaplex says to dose, wait two days, then redose for up to 3 doses. That will work for any tank that is over 1 gal but if it's 1 gal, then I would suggest changing the water every day and redosing.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I'll have him floating in a KK in my 29G... so it will be in around 4 liters of water... I'll change every day and re-dose. I mean, if it was a parasite... where would it come from? I'm so stumped! 
I want to try to feed him some food with kanaplex, I was thinking I could do it with frozen food... I have some thawing right now, and then I'll use thongs to feed so it doesn't get everywhere. How often should I do this?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Most scientists and biologists believe that all fish carry a certain amount of parasites within their systems and on their bodies at all times. 99% of the time, these buggers stay in such small numbers that they don't do any harm. However, if for any reason the fish's immune system becomes compromised, it's often enough opportunity for parasites and bacterial infections to take over. Stress and poor water conditions are the usual suspects but in your case because you practice excellent husbandry, I would guess that just the process of aging was enough to let a disease take hold.

For feeding the Kanaplex, I would feed that to him every day for the entire course of his treatment. Using a bit of tank water, mix up a small amount of Kanaplex and soak the food in that. Don't be surprised if he refuses though. Often the only way to feed medicated foods is to stick so much garlic juice in a vampire would keel over a half mile away.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I got him to eat some regular pellets tonight, and did try to feed him some frozen brine shrimp with the kanaplex... he was too busy hiding from me to care...

I really want to give him a night with just the epson salt... just to see if that will do the trick... and set him up in QT first thing tomorrow. 

Also, should I keep dropping in food in his main tank to keep the cycle going? 

unless you think I should start tonight.. 

I do have garlic juice.. so that won't be a problem!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Dropping a bit of food in the tank won't hurt, yeah. Hopefully he won't be out of there for too long.

I completely understand, if you want to give him a night in just epsom salts that's fine. I'm really not a fan of medicating even though that seems to be what I advise a lot. >.<


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I have him all set up in about a gallon of water, floating in my 29G for warmth. I have epson salt and kanaplex in there as well... the pineconing looks a bit worse.. but he's still swimming around. I'll try to feed him later on after the shock of not being in his tank wears off... 

Keep your fingers crossed everyone!


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## Artemis (Mar 9, 2013)

Use Kent Marine Garlic Xtreme.: http://http://www.petco.com/product/108653/Kent-Marine-Garlic-Xtreme.aspx

Garlic kills bad bacteria. Bad bacteria can cause pineconing. MY fish was treated with a similar thing but fresh garlic, a holistic remedy.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I use that already actually, for food soakings..


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I haven't seen any positive change yet... but he is still eating. I've been soaking his food in the kanaplex with garlic.. he eats them no problem.

His pineconing might have gotten worse... but he is still swimming around... for the most part. 

:-/


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## RowdyBetta (Feb 1, 2013)

I really hope he gets better!  It sounds like you're doing all you can for the lil guy.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I really do too. 

I don't want to lose two friends in one month 

What has been keeping me so stumped is how this happened... because there is no reason for some random infection to crop up! He was so healthy and happy and active.. and now this? 

 At least he's eating! 

But it looks like some of his scales are falling off... does this happen often with pineconing?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Not typically but it is a possibility, if the scales are protruding at an extreme angle.

The most important part is he is eating. Will he eat medicated food?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Not typically but it is a possibility, if the scales are protruding at an extreme angle.
> 
> The most important part is he is eating. Will he eat medicated food?




He has been!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yay! That's great news. The best way to target internal problems is to send the meds straight to the source.


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## RowdyBetta (Feb 1, 2013)

How is he today?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He was the same, still a tad bloated with raised scales.. but still swimming... that was at 5am. I'll post an update here when I get home if there's a change.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Now that I'm home, he looks about the same.. stlll very active considering he's in a QT tank.. he seems interested in the bubbles from the air stone that's for sure.. I'm going to try feeding him some frozen brine shrimp with garlic and kanaplex... 


I just want him to be better!!! He was my little man fish.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

You know what? He might be getting better!!

Could you guys take a peek and let me know? He wasn't as still or corporative for macro shots (yay!) but I got a few... My boyfriend thinks he looks better..and I really hope I'm not being hopeful here... 

What do you guys think?

Oh, and his poo looks normal! Nice solid and brown. 


























These last few were taken in his QT tank, floating in my 29G tank.. it has more lighting from the tank light/flash.. I think he's getting his color back and he isn't as chubby..... he can swim a bit easier!! 


















Thoughts?


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Looking a bit better for sure. Keep on the treatment and keep an eye on the pineconing. Yiu and I are in the same boat, my friend.  Cass looks about the same as your little guy right now, so I'm hoping both of their treatments are going well.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> Looking a bit better for sure. Keep on the treatment and keep an eye on the pineconing. Yiu and I are in the same boat, my friend.  Cass looks about the same as your little guy right now, so I'm hoping both of their treatments are going well.





Good luck with your fish friend!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

You too. Our fish seem damn stubborn. Which is good!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Rachelle, he is looking good.  Definitely keep up with the Kanaplex for the rest of the course and then perhaps another course to be safe. With bacterial infections, you never want to stop the medication too soon or the bacteria can come back more resistant than ever. Yes, Kanaplex can be hard on the kidneys but it must be overdosed and abused to do damage so a second course will be safe for him.


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

Ohhh he _does_ look a bit better! I'm sorry that you're both going through this, but I want to thank you as my betta started showing the exact same symptoms lately and the garlic has helped immensely.

Hoping all our bettas will make progress!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

SpookyTooth said:


> Ohhh he _does_ look a bit better! I'm sorry that you're both going through this, but I want to thank you as my betta started showing the exact same symptoms lately and the garlic has helped immensely.
> 
> Hoping all our bettas will make progress!


Oh no! You too!

Man, this is nuts. Who would have thought that giving these guys proper care could hurt them?!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Rachelle, he is looking good.  Definitely keep up with the Kanaplex for the rest of the course and then perhaps another course to be safe. With bacterial infections, you never want to stop the medication too soon or the bacteria can come back more resistant than ever. Yes, Kanaplex can be hard on the kidneys but it must be overdosed and abused to do damage so a second course will be safe for him.


Fantastic! So I started him up on the 7th, so I'll keep him in there until the 21st? So two straight weeks of kanaplex and Epson salts. I've been replacing the water (about a gallon) every other day. I can't believe this is working!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, that sounds about right for the length of treatment. Go, little buddy, go!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Yes, that sounds about right for the length of treatment. Go, little buddy, go!




He looks even better today!!!!! I have a concert tomorrow night so I'll have to change his water first thing in the morning... looks like I won't be the only grumpy one at 430am tomorrow


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm so glad he's doing better. YAY!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

What does white poo mean? 

I'm changing his water right now, and noticed that all the poos floating in his tank are brown and normal.. but he's in the middle of pooping out something totally white?

Is this just from the antibiotics?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

White poo can either mean internal parasites or in some cases it can mean internal bacterial infections. In this case, since all of his other poo has been normal until now, I think the white poo may be an indicator that he is getting rid of the bacterial infection. If he keeps having white poo though and he starts to lose condition (ie, lose weight and energy), we can add API General Cure or just plain metronidazole along with the Kanaplex to take care of any possible internal parasites. 

In some cases, a fish may have a mild case of internal parasites that isn't enough to cause health problems but the damage from those parasites can cause a secondary bacterial infection.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Okay, makes sense!

I know in humans lightly colored poo can indicate liver failure.. so I got a little worried. 

I couldn't get him to eat last night, but I'll try tonight, or tomorrow morning. (not sure how late I'll be getting home).. 

Poor little guy.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I just checked on Mr. Squiggles.. I got him to eat a few pellets... but noticed that he has VERY long white stringy poo... he's never had this before... could it be from the antibiotics? 

It looked like a white hair... with a chunk at the end..

What is going on?! Should I order some parasitic treatments?


I do have coppersafe handy... but don't know if I should treat... I've never seen this before so I don't know if it's really a parasitic thing..


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

That is LEGITIMATELY what Cass had/has. Long white stringy poop. Usually parasites. I'd start treating for it before it can start a secondary infection.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

What should I use? Is this a normal dropsy thing?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Dropsy symptoms can be caused by large amounts of parasites in the stomach. Sometimes if a betta has a small amount of parasites, not enough to cause concern, a secondary bacterial infection can start from the damage those parasites have done and cause noticeable symptoms. As the fish battles off the bacterial infection, the parasites have a chance to multiply. :/ 

Continue with the Kanaplex but add either metronidazole or General Cure as well.

How is he doing otherwise?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Dropsy symptoms can be caused by large amounts of parasites in the stomach. Sometimes if a betta has a small amount of parasites, not enough to cause concern, a secondary bacterial infection can start from the damage those parasites have done and cause noticeable symptoms. As the fish battles off the bacterial infection, the parasites have a chance to multiply. :/
> 
> Continue with the Kanaplex but add either metronidazole or General Cure as well.
> 
> How is he doing otherwise?


He's been okay, not bloated anymore! 

I'll have to order those online, I'll get both to have on hand.

Is he passing a worm, or is it just what his poo looks like? He had normal poos at first...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm not sure if he's actually passing a worm but if the poo is kind of whiteish clearish, probably not. Again, it's probably from the damage they've been doing internally. I've forgotten the technical term; have to go look it back up. 

I'm glad he's not bloated though. Hurray!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Rachel, you're not alone. This is legitimately the same thing Cass has. Dropsy seemingly caused by parasites. Treating her with Kanaplex and API General Cure.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm not sure if he's actually passing a worm but if the poo is kind of whiteish clearish, probably not. Again, it's probably from the damage they've been doing internally. I've forgotten the technical term; have to go look it back up.
> 
> I'm glad he's not bloated though. Hurray!




Me too! I hope he can go 5 or so days.... have to wait on shipping now...  

Now the general cure comes in packets.. can I eyeball a dose? If one package doses 10 gallons, can I sort of eyeball 1/10th of it? 

What will I do when I eventually put him back in his main tank? Will be get sick again?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> Rachel, you're not alone. This is legitimately the same thing Cass has. Dropsy seemingly caused by parasites. Treating her with Kanaplex and API General Cure.


This sucks!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

I know the pain, hon. Trust me. It's brutal not knowing what caused it or how to fix it.


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## Picasso84 (Feb 11, 2013)

How is ur little man doing?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's okay... pale.. listless but okay.

I'm anxiously awaiting my general cure to arrive in the mail..


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

UGH. The shipment info was finally updated.. I won't get the Parasitic drugs until Saturday! 

 I hope he makes it until then...


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Just hang in there. Little Ghost Cass is pulling for you and your little one, and so am I! <3


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

How is his pineconing? Is he still in Kanaplex?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> How is his pineconing? Is he still in Kanaplex?


He's still in kanaplex and epson salt... I changed his water this morning. 

He looks a little bloated.. and actually is a little pineconed...he wasn't for a few days..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay. Continue with the treatment then. Not much more can be done for the pineconing than you're already doing.  

There is also a possibility that the white poo is a result of peritonitis or damage done to the stomach cavity by a bacterial infection or by internal parasites. :/


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Okay. Continue with the treatment then. Not much more can be done for the pineconing than you're already doing.
> 
> There is also a possibility that the white poo is a result of peritonitis or damage done to the stomach cavity by a bacterial infection or by internal parasites. :/




Oh dear you could very well be right... sometimes working in the medical field is a bad thing.... 

It could be liver issues or even gall bladder... a blockage even..


Ugh.. I mean he's been eating... he'll eat a pellet (non medicated now) and then that will be it... he spits everything else out...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

But you are doing everything you can do for him and I know he is getting the best care possible. He's got a good chance, especially since he deflated for a little while. 

I know you have concerns about the Kanaplex harming his kidneys but I believe he will be fine in that regard; I think to do damage you would have to be overdosing it, like 2 scoops per gallon or something crazy like that.


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Sakura's right. You're doing everything you can hon. Honestly. And he's holding on fairly well. Is the pineconing mainly on the bottom of the stomach?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> Sakura's right. You're doing everything you can hon. Honestly. And he's holding on fairly well. Is the pineconing mainly on the bottom of the stomach?



I'm definitely not over dosing him... so that's good. Even though I know deep down that I'm doing everything right.. I still feel so terrible for him. 

The pineconing is mainly on his stomach area.. and it's not as bad as some pictures I"ve seen.. but his entire body does look a bit "swollen".. for lack of a better word.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He ate a bunch of pellets tonight! Had I known he was so hungry I would have medicated them first.....


That's a good sign!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes! It is a very good sign. Keep it up, buddy!


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes that is great. It is a very difficult problem to cure. Not much else you can do than you are already doing.

Good Luck!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I took some pictures of him just now.. I didn't take out my macro lens because it's too long and I'd prob drop it in the water... but I left his QT floating in my main tank for these pictures since he was right out in the open... 

I can't imagine having your scales up like that feels very good  I feel so terrible...

I cropped these so you guys could see his scales a bit better... 
Sorry for all the little specs.. the flash was reflecting off (presumably) dust on the water. 






He was better a few days ago  

At least he ate like a little champ last night..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, those are officially the most graphic pictures of pineconing I've ever seen. I've got to bookmark this so I can refer people to those pics as examples. 

Poor little guy. Even each little scale looks swollen.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Okay, those are officially the most graphic pictures of pineconing I've ever seen. I've got to bookmark this so I can refer people to those pics as examples.
> 
> Poor little guy. Even each little scale looks swollen.




No matter what happens, I hope my experience and photos can help someone else..


I feel so terrible


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*hugs* 

I wish bettas weren't quite so prone to illnesses.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> *hugs*
> 
> I wish bettas weren't quite so prone to illnesses.


Me too..

I am still so flabbergasted... he was SO healthy and happy (as much as a fish can be).. 

 

Do you think the General Cure will help when it comes?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

All I can promise is that it won't hurt to try it. If he has internal parasites, the metronidazole will clear 'em out. If he doesn't, the metronidazole will provide that much more medication to the internal bacteria.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> All I can promise is that it won't hurt to try it. If he has internal parasites, the metronidazole will clear 'em out. If he doesn't, the metronidazole will provide that much more medication to the internal bacteria.




Very true.... Metronidazole is great against anaerobic bacteria... 

I mean, I got a gecko who was very sick with parasites, and the vet gave him Metronidazole, and 3 years later he's doing great.. 

I mean, It's not like I had him in horrid conditions.. he was in a cycled planted tank.. and suddenly this happens? 

I guess normal healthy people get sick randomly too... 

At least Lemongrab is doing fine, and his eye has remained stable and I can finally say it's not infected or injured..


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

His stomach is more buldgey this morning... I had to change his water/add new kanaplex so I upped the epson salt from 2tsp/gallon to 3... figured it wouldn't hurt and it might help..

 I'm super bummed out about this. 

I love him! I loved him the night I brought him home.. all skinny and pale... I got to watch him grow... and become a stunning fish with a huge personality and now he's miserable and there's nothing I can do..


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm so sorry... It's all looking so familiar... I really hope he pulls through... Bloody frikkin dropsy... Just not damn fair...


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Me too.... 

Here are this morning's pictures.. Even if Mr. Squiggles is beyond help, these photos might help someone else 


one that isn't as cropped


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He doesn't look any better, but he still has a hefty appetite! He just ate a bunch of pellets!!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Keep eating, little guy, keep eating!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Hang in there little man. >_<


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He ate last night too! 

Tomorrow (the 21st) will mark 14 days of him being on kanaplex.. 
And today I should be getting my general cure in the mail. 

What should the next round of treatment be like, time wise? 

He's still very pineconed. he doesn't move around much either. But he's eating still.


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

I forget the dosing of General Cure... But I'd recommend you keep an eye on him for when he starts laying on the bottom of his tank sort of on his side, breathing heavily... That was kind of the telltale sign for Cass losing her battle with this bloody awful illness...


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I got it finally! 
It says to dose twice.. once every other day. 

I'm keeping him in 1 gallon.. so I'll have to take out my gram scale and weigh it out, and take out 1/10th.

I swear I'm not a drug dealer.. I'm going to look like one measuring out a a fine white powder though. haha. 

THe scale is for measuring geckos... not drugs! 

I'll keep you posted!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Here's a picture of him from when I added the general cure..

it looks like side has worse pineconing than another.. 
But he still has some fight left in him!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Technically speaking, we could go for another course on Kanaplex if you wanted to. I do know of one betta who had severe fin rot who spent like a month or more in Kanaplex. But it also might be a good idea to stop the Kanaplex in the water and go with just General Cure, but feed him Kanaplex-medicated food.

That he is still eating is a fantastic sign. Keep it up little guy, you can do it! Hang in there!


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## Wolfie305 (Jan 31, 2012)

Wow I haven't been here in so long! After we had a bizzard here in MA that knocked out power for 4 days, I lost ALL 4 of my bettas  I now have one new little guy, however, and he's been doing pretty good up until today.

I noticed he was bloated (like...full body bloated) and pineconing slightly. I haven't noticed what his poop looks like yet, but he is active and eating. Seems to be similar to what the OP was going through with her little guy.

I added in Epsom salt and API General Cure to his 2.5 gallon tank today, but I'm curious as to what Kanaplex is? Is it the best method? Where can I get it?

Don't mean to take away from the OP, I just didn't think it was necessary to start a new thread when we're having the same issue mostly :3

<3


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Hello fellow MA person! 

Kanaplex is an antibiotic, kanamycin. It's sort of broad spectrum, and is effective against aerobic gram negative bacteria, and some gram positive. 

It's added directly to the water (but I don't recommend using it in your main tank because it will wipe out your good bacteria, and kill your plants). Here's a link for a place to get it
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...=1378056103&catargetid=1570176311&cagpspn=pla

I'd wait for Sakura to chime in, because I'm not an expert.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Technically speaking, we could go for another course on Kanaplex if you wanted to. I do know of one betta who had severe fin rot who spent like a month or more in Kanaplex. But it also might be a good idea to stop the Kanaplex in the water and go with just General Cure, but feed him Kanaplex-medicated food.
> 
> That he is still eating is a fantastic sign. Keep it up little guy, you can do it! Hang in there!


Will do. I already added kanamycin to his water today.. so the next time I change it I won't add it. I will soak the food though. 
I have some brine shrimp with kanaplex in it that I re-froze. The tube said it would still be good, but do you have any experience with this?


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## Wolfie305 (Jan 31, 2012)

Ahh, so you have to purchase it online and not in stores? 

Whenever my babies are sick, I tend to rush to the store immediately to get what they need - I hate waiting for shipping!  

Thanks for the info


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Rachelle, yes, it should still be good.

Wolfie, hi! Long time no see. Yes, sadly Kanaplex has to be ordered online most of the time. There are no medicines available in the stores that will do the job for an internal infection. The only one is Maracyn Two and I only recommend that when I'm pretty sure the cause of the bloating is NOT a kidney infection. In this case, I'd go with Kanaplex.


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## Wolfie305 (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks, Sakura! Purchased. Hopefully it comes soon for my little guy </3


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

In the meantime, 3 tsps of epsom salts per gallon, Wolfie.


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## Wolfie305 (Jan 31, 2012)

Ooh I've been doing two, thank you!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Come on little guy, you can do it!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

How is he today?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's pretty much the same.. his pineconing might be a little better.. I'm going to change his water/re-dose with general cure tomorrow morning.. so hopefully I'll see a difference. 

is it safe to do a few courses of general cure? It says on the box that two treatments should be enough.. but I'm not seeing any improvement yet..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It should be safe, yes but I don't think I'd go over 4 courses.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's no better today  He might even be worse.. It's heartbreaking to see his little eyes looking at me.. He's such a fighter, I mean I'm not sure what else could keep him going on like this. 
He must be in so much pain  I've been adding Kordon's fish protector this entire time, so I hope that helps a little. He doesn't look anything like the shimmery pink he used to be with his scales up like this.


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## HeroicPoison (Feb 27, 2013)

Awe 
My thoughts are with you and your little guy!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I don't know if this will be of any comfort to you but supposedly fish don't "feel" pain in the same way mammals do. He might be in discomfort but I don't think he is in pain.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I don't know if this will be of any comfort to you but supposedly fish don't "feel" pain in the same way mammals do. He might be in discomfort but I don't think he is in pain.


I do remember reading that on Reddit... I still feel so bad for him  

Is there anything else I could be doing?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If you happen to have any Indian Almond leaf or naturally dried and clean oak leaves, you can add those. Beyond that, I think you're doing all that you can do for him.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's been in the General Cure since Saturday.. I think I see improvement? He seems thin though. He's been eating, and pooping normally! 

When do you think I can put him home?
Photobucket isn't working so I attached the pictures, sorry about that!


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

Wow he does seem to be improved! Keep going little fish! You're doing wonderfully, rmarkham!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Good going Rachel! He does look less spikey! Keep up the hope, keep up the treatment. Cass and I are pulling for him! <3


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## WolfHhowling (Apr 10, 2013)

I am glad hes not pineconing due to kidney failure!

My female gourami had to be put down because she had dropsy from improper breeding, ( kidney failure).

You are truly lucky hes getting better.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks everyone!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I do see a noticeable improvement so I'd suggest continuing with the General Cure. Weight-wise, he looks all right so far but he may be able to put some weight on once he's better. Way to go, Rachelle.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's even better today! As of today I've had him in the General Cure for 7 days.. 

Is he ready to go home yet? He's a bit more energetic today. 

Sakura, what do you think?
He's not normal or 100% yet.. but he has had a few doses of the General Cure. 





Am I getting too hopeful too soon? 

I can't believe he's made it this far!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Come on Mr Squiggles, you've got this! Do it for Cass! :3


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I would leave him in epsom salts and maybe two or three more doses of General Cure. The scales are almost flat but not quite. I'd like to make sure they go completely down because if he has a relapse, it will be next to impossible to cure. 

I'm really glad the little guy is doing so much better. I love the success stories. You've done a fabulous job with him, Rachelle.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I would leave him in epsom salts and maybe two or three more doses of General Cure. The scales are almost flat but not quite. I'd like to make sure they go completely down because if he has a relapse, it will be next to impossible to cure.
> 
> I'm really glad the little guy is doing so much better. I love the success stories. You've done a fabulous job with him, Rachelle.


Thanks! 

I'll keep him in QT... it says that general cure is safe for use with plants.. but I'm not sure what it would do to the beneficial bacteria in the tank. 

I'm so happy that he's gone this far! He looks the same today as he did yesterday as far as scales go... I'll keep him in for a few more doses.


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Yay! So happy for you two! <3 and feel like a jerk for always spelling your name wrong! >.<


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> Yay! So happy for you two! <3 and feel like a jerk for always spelling your name wrong! >.<


I don't care!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's been in the General Cure for 10 days.... is he getting better do you think???


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm no expert but to me the scales look a lot better. If I had to wager a guess he has parasites causing the dropsy, and the API is fighting off the parasites and thus the dropsy. How's his appetite and energy?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> I'm no expert but to me the scales look a lot better. If I had to wager a guess he has parasites causing the dropsy, and the API is fighting off the parasites and thus the dropsy. How's his appetite and energy?


It's about the same. He's had the same appetite as he did a few weeks ago when this mess started.


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

So he's still nomming and still not just laying at the bottom of the tank on his side?


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Let me honest here. Very few betta make it back after pine coning. You are doing fantastic. 

Cheering for you and this gives hope to other keepers with fish fighting dropsy.


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## Anime Fish (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm glad your betta is doing well, he looks much better! I lost my betta when his scales looked like that...it's great your betta is nearly recovered from it


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> So he's still nomming and still not just laying at the bottom of the tank on his side?


Yeah! He's upright, he's not zipping around by any means.. but he's active enough! He's still colorful.. no where near where he was in my avatar.. but he's my little fighter 

I just changed his water/drugs a little while ago.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

logisticsguy said:


> Let me honest here. Very few betta make it back after pine coning. You are doing fantastic.
> 
> Cheering for you and this gives hope to other keepers with fish fighting dropsy.




Thank you so much! I really hope others find this thread, and can help their guys.

I can't wait to put him home!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Anime Fish said:


> I'm glad your betta is doing well, he looks much better! I lost my betta when his scales looked like that...it's great your betta is nearly recovered from it




Thanks!
I'm really sorry about your fish.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I think he's getting better scale-wise... but he's been very listless the past 2 days.... 

He will chase food but not eat it. (and there's not many places for it to go)

:-/ I hope he pulls through! He normally eats like a pig. I did get him to eat a few pellets.. but he wasn't interested in the vitachem/garlic soaked ones... 



Still sticking out a tad


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

As long as he IS eating, it's a good sign. How has his poop looked?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Medicine can have that effect. Ideally, I'd like him to stay in until all of his scales are completely down but I don't want to OD his system either. Rachelle, it's your call. If you think he's okay to head back home, go for it. But if you think he can stand a few more days of treatment, go for that. You do what's best because you know him best. 

If you do move him home, I'd suggest keeping him in at least 1 tsp of epsom salts per gallon for a week or more to be on the safe side.

No matter what, you've done a fantastic job with the little guy.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Thanks! 

Depending on how he looks, I might put him home when I get home from work.. I mean, today would be better than any other day because I'll be home all weekend to watch him. 

I'll keep you posted!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Okay. Today is the day! He's going home! He's been listless and pale.. and still a tad pineconed.. but he needs to go home.. he hasn't improved at all over the past week, so I'm hoping his home will do the trick. It's warmer than my 29G tank that's for sure! 

I hope he will be okay. I have him acclimating right now, and I did a quick 50% water change (I've been doing them all along ) and added about 1-1.5 tsp of epson salt per gallon. 

Keep your fingers crossed everyone!


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

All fingers crossed over here, both my girlfriend and I. Ghost Cass and Gay Tony are crossing their fins too. Come on Mr Squiggles... You can do it...


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I don't know what to do. Now that he's under his normal lighting.. he's so pale... his fins aren't even red anymore (see avatar).. he doesn't have a shimmer.. 

He was swimming around a bit before... but now he's up at the top of his tank just sitting there. 

This reminds me of my Magikarp before I lost him


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he doesn't feel well still, he'll probably be paler. Can't remember if I mentioned it but you may want to keep him in 1 tsp of epsom salts per gallon to be on the safe side. If you have any Indian Almond leaf or decaffeinated pure green tea, you can add that as a source of tannins as well.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> If he doesn't feel well still, he'll probably be paler. Can't remember if I mentioned it but you may want to keep him in 1 tsp of epsom salts per gallon to be on the safe side. If you have any Indian Almond leaf or decaffeinated pure green tea, you can add that as a source of tannins as well.




He's still alive this morning! He has 1tsp/gallon of epson salt in his tank right now. He had 3tsp/gallon in his QT tank.. 

He's not as pale and I Can see red in his fins now but he's very listless and is just sort of floating at the top... but he's still alive!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's not doing as well as I had hoped... he's at the bottom of the tank.. sort of laying there... I changed his water today. Here's a picture of him..


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## XxxXnoodleXxxX (Dec 1, 2012)

Was he laying at the bottom in his ISO tank? Or has it just been since you put him in his big tank?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

XxxXnoodleXxxX said:


> Was he laying at the bottom in his ISO tank? Or has it just been since you put him in his big tank?


HE was sort of floating on a fake plant when he was being medicated.. for the past few days he hadn't been swimming around much.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ah, you could've left it at 3 tsps too. Didn't realize you had that in there. But 1 tsp is probably better right now just to give him a break from so many things in his water.

C'mon, Mr. Squiggles. You can do it! Hang in there, little buddy!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Ah, you could've left it at 3 tsps too. Didn't realize you had that in there. But 1 tsp is probably better right now just to give him a break from so many things in his water.
> 
> C'mon, Mr. Squiggles. You can do it! Hang in there, little buddy!


 He's just laying at the bottom... but he is moving around.. I haven't seen it but every time I go to check on him he's in a different spot. Gives me a heart attack each time!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sounds like what xaltd calls "the sulk." I hate "the sulk." It could mean just about anything in terms of illness.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's pineconed again... 

He can swim.. but not strongly.. 

It's not all over his body, not that I can see easily.. it seems to be worse by his belly which is big even though I havent been able to get him to eat for a few days now. 

Should I take him out and treat again?


EDIT: He looks really bad.... he moved and I can see him from a different angle.. he looks as bad now as he did when he was at his worst in his treatment tank.  I don't know what else I can do for him... could it be something in his tank making him sick?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

This is what I was really afraid of. The symptoms that cause dropsy can be really resistant. To be honest, it's probably not going to help at this point because the symptoms (and thus the disease causing them) have returned, but yes, if you want to you can take him out and put him back in Kanaplex AND General Cure. 

I think he may have a possible hexamita infestation, an internal parasite that can also cause dropsy symptoms. If so, they can be pretty hard buggers to clear out. The metronidazole in General Cure will tackle them and the Kanaplex will tackle the resulting secondary bacterial infection.

Oh, Mr. Squiggles.  I'm so sorry, Rachelle. You've really done everything you possibly could for the little guy and I'm so sorry the symptoms have returned.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Do you think they were something that he had all along? I hadn't introduced anything new to his tank, and I've even moved plants between his tank and Lemongrabs... 

And since then I've moved driftwood from his tank to my new rescues tank... 

At this point, would treating again just cause more discomfort? It's so hard to watch him just sit at the bottom of his tank like that..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I think it is very possible it's something he's had all along. Chronic infections are all too common in bettas because of the conditions they're kept in before we buy them. He could have easily been harboring hexamita parasites or a bacterial infection all this time and it has been gradually wearing down his immune system until he finally became full-blown sick.

To be honest, while I don't think treating would cause him discomfort per se, I also don't think it will help. When things like this recur, they come back highly resistant to treatment. If you wanted, you could just leave him in epsom salts and let him be in his own tank.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Okay, makes sense. 

I'll do a partial water change and add more epson salt to the water.. 

Should I be worried that my other fish may get this? From sharing plants, and a water siphon? So far everyone seems fine. 

Is it possible that Mr. Squiggles was older when I got him? He was smaller when I bought him... but could age be a factor at all? I got him back in October so even if he was 6 months old.. he still isn't very old in betta years, right? 


Even my boyfriend is worried about this guy.. and he's not a fish fan.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's possible that Mr. Squiggles is older than he seems but it seems more likely that bad genetics and bad petstore care are the real culprits. Aside from getting sick, he's showed no other typical signs of aging like color changing or cataracts. Those signs usually don't show up until a betta is over a year old, usually closer to two or three.

There is a possibility the other two could get sick, yes. Ideally, we should all have separate buckets and siphon hoses for each tank we have so we never cross-contaminate. In the real world, that's usually not even remotely possible for most of us (myself included). The only time this kind of practice becomes an absolute must is if a person is a breeder and has a fish room full of extremely valuable fish. For the rest of us, this is the risk we run. 9 times out of 10, nothing happens but on some rare occasion, if a fish gets stressed and his immune system crashes, he could get sick from pathogens introduced via the siphon or shared decor. 

You may want to sterilize the siphon hose using hot water. Otherwise, another preventative measure you could take is to put both fish in either a 24 hour soak of methylene blue or 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon for a few days. Methylene blue is a good disease preventative for both internal and external problems because it absorbs well into the system but it stains everything and can be hard to find. If you've ever seen the bettas in the blue water cups, they're in methylene blue. The AQ salt would work in a similar way but only externally. It would encourage them to produce slime coat and help regulate their osmotic functions. We just can't have Lemongrab and the rescue get sick. We just can't! *puts foot down*


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

How do you feel about Kordon's fish protector? I've been using that throughout Mr. Squiggle's treatment, and I add it to all betta tanks with water changes.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I really like that product. It's one of the better products out there to help heal torn fins and protect open wounds and it's supposed to have a good calming effect as well. I actually prefer it to Stress Coat. As a note, if you did decide to use methylene blue as a preventative, it says right on the bottle that combining the methylene blue with Kordon Fish Protector will make the methylene more effective. Something about binding with it. It's on the bottle for Kordon Methylene Blue.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

For anyone who was following this story.. 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=172169


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