# Could this be parasites



## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

So, some time ago I made a post about my Bowie rubbing against some of the decor I had in his tank. I observed him for signs of parasites, but finding nothing, I decided he just might have been bored, or not like the new cave I had put in there (which is the main thing he had been rubbing on). 

That original thread is here: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=87575

Fast Forward to this past Sunday.

I had been noticing that parts of his anal fin had little pin point holes in them for the past few weeks. They would be there for a couple of days and then go away. With this past Sunday's water change, I noticed his dorsal fin looking ragged. Buy Wednesday's water change, it looked like it was deteriorating. By the time I got home from work yesterday, I felt like I had to QT him.

He had also been rubbing against the bottom of his heater (which has rubber buffers on the top and bottom of it.). It wasn't like he was trying to scratch, it was more like a cat rubbing on a couch, or something. He hasn't been darting or twitching. 

I know I might seem like a paranoid mama. Maybe it's just fin rot, but I have been concerned about him rubbing against things. There appear to be little salt like things on the bottom of his QT tank. I thought that I had fully dissolved the AQ salt I've been using, but maybe not? (I couldn't find any clear pictures online of what parasites look like in a tank setting)

I've attached photos of him and the particles at the bottom and will fill out the questionaire in another reply. 

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and i'm sorry if it's really nothing. I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Housing 
What size is your tank? 5.5 Gallons 
What temperature is your tank? 80 degrees 
Does your tank have a filter? Yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No 
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? Himself 

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? New Life Spectrum Betta pellets (4-6 pellets 2x's a day) Hikari Freeze Dried bloodworms Twice a week, in place of a meal (soaked in tank water for 6 minutes before feeding, they reconstitute really well). 
How often do you feed your betta fish? Twice a day 

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Twice a week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? one 50% and one 20%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Prime conditioner 

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters? 

Took it to a pet store once a week until last week, when I bought strips to do testing myself. The following test was done on the water still in his tank from the WC on Wednesday. I used Mardel 5-in-one test strips to measure everything except the ammonia, which I measured with Jungle "Quick Dip" Ammonia Test kit. 

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate:0
pH: 7.5
Hardness: doesn't even register. The lightest color on the strip was orange, and the pad for this turned yellow. 
Alkalinity: 300

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Ragged fins with black tips
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? lightly rubbing on heater
When did you start noticing the symptoms? a few weeks ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? He's currently in a QT tank with 1 tsp AQ salt and stress coat
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No 
How old is your fish (approximately)? Could be anywhere between eight months to a year


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

I just noticed Bowie is giving me serious stink eye in the second to last photo. Neither one of us are too happy to have him in QT this close to Christmas. Blah


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Did Bowie's WC. His gills seem to be flaring out more than normal when he breathes. I noticed him bashing himself against the bottom of his QT tank earlier. I'm going to turn his heater up tonight, I figure it can't hurt, and will see what I can see in the morning.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Curious about the little salt sprinkles. Do they just randomly appear? Could be external parasites falling off. Do the sprinkles look like they might be (ugh) tapeworm segments coming out of him?

Bowie may have skin and/or gill flukes. These are external parasites like ich and velvet but they are only visible with a microscope. They'll cause the rubbing and other symptoms you're seeing. Like fleas on a fish. 

Conservative treatment: 3 tsps of AQ salt, heat at about 84-86 F
Aggressive treatment: General Cure or Seachem ParaGuard or praziquantel, normal heat

Change as much of the water (all if you can) every day for at least a week while treating. Also, continue with the Stress Coat. Slime coat is definitely wanted in this case. 

I hope this helps. Keep us updated.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey Sakura!

They did seem to appear overnight, the first night I put him in his QT tank. This morning, there aren't as many, but there appear to be a few little mold looking white dots in the bottom of the QT tank. 

I didn't bump up his heat last night, but i'm going to right after posting this. I'm going to have to brave the crowds today, because I'm really thinking I should get out and buy one of the more agressive treatment options, to have on hand. Don't want to be caught without medicine on Christmas Day. :-(

There were a lot of slime coat particles in his tank when I took him out Thursday evening. He's still eating and is still vivacious enough to give me the stink eye. lol 

Do you have any recommendations as to which of the aggressive treatments I should buy? I'm going to try the conservative tonight, and see how much stuff there is in his tank tomorrow before deciding to try something else. 

Thanks for the reply!



Sakura8 said:


> Curious about the little salt sprinkles. Do they just randomly appear? Could be external parasites falling off. Do the sprinkles look like they might be (ugh) tapeworm segments coming out of him?
> 
> Bowie may have skin and/or gill flukes. These are external parasites like ich and velvet but they are only visible with a microscope. They'll cause the rubbing and other symptoms you're seeing. Like fleas on a fish.
> 
> ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

General Cure is the easiest to find, since Petsmart carries it. I've heard really good things about ParaGuard but you'll probably have to go to a fish store to find it. I think General Cure should do the trick though. Hopefully the pet stores won't be too crazy because I think I need to make a trip too.

I'm glad he's eating, that's always a very good sign. 

Best of luck with the little guy and keep us updated.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, two of the more "independent" pet stores by me didn't carry the Paraguard. I wound up going to Petsmart and getting some general cure. 

The stores actually weren't too bad. I even braved the Wal-Mart by me and it wasn't as crazy as I was expecting. 

There's slime on the outside of his Hospital tank, (which I have floating in his 5.5), I haven't changed the water in his 5.5 since all of this went down. I cranked the heat up and he doesn't like it very much at all. He ate all of his breakfast, but there are now several little small pellet like poops in his tank. 

This is so frustrating. 

I'm assuming I should give him a 2 day break from the salt treatments before switching to the general cure?



Sakura8 said:


> General Cure is the easiest to find, since Petsmart carries it. I've heard really good things about ParaGuard but you'll probably have to go to a fish store to find it. I think General Cure should do the trick though. Hopefully the pet stores won't be too crazy because I think I need to make a trip too.
> 
> I'm glad he's eating, that's always a very good sign.
> 
> Best of luck with the little guy and keep us updated.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It would be best to give him a bit of time but if you're careful, it also shouldn't hurt him too much to jump straight into the General Cure.

Well, pooping is good. Disgusting but good. It means we don't have to worry about constipation, too. And the poops sound normal so it doesn't seem as if he has an internal parasite problem so yay for that.

Hang in there, you two, you're doing great.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

You are so sweet! Thanks so much for the kind words.  

I'm wishing I had taken action before his immune system was down enough for him to get fin rot, but the way I see it, I at least noticed before he was clamped and seriously sick. He's not liking his new home, but he's eating and occupying himself by working on a bubble nest today. 

There was a ton of goop in his tank yesterday afternoon, so much that I actually did his WC a bit early because I felt bad. One of the goops even looked like it was moving! (gross!). I added the larger does of AQ salt that you recommended, and kept the heat up. Is tank is much cleaner than I was expecting this morning, based on what I saw yesterday. Just normal, slime coat in there. I'm going to do some research on the lifespan of flukes. I'm not sure how common it is to see evidence of it one day and then not the next.

I think I'm going to continue using the salt for now, and just treat his 5.5 with the General cure while he's in his QT tank, so make sure I have a handle on that. 

Bowie and I thank you so much for being supportive. it helps to know we have a cheerleader, so to speak.  




Sakura8 said:


> It would be best to give him a bit of time but if you're careful, it also shouldn't hurt him too much to jump straight into the General Cure.
> 
> Well, pooping is good. Disgusting but good. It means we don't have to worry about constipation, too. And the poops sound normal so it doesn't seem as if he has an internal parasite problem so yay for that.
> 
> Hang in there, you two, you're doing great.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Moving? Eewww. Don't know what to say about that. What did the goop in his tank look like? Like white and slimy, possibly excess slime coat? 

I'm not sure about the lifespan of flukes either. Hopefully short. There are other external parasites he could get, like tetrahymena, costia, trichodina, and chilodonella. They can cause the same itching/darting reaction and also, because of their presence, cause an increase in slime coat production as the fish attempts to rid himself of the parasites. So that could explain the extra goop. Salt should help to remove them too.

How is his fin rot doing?

Hang in there, Bowie!


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, I wasn't sure what to think about the goop either. It could just be massive amounts of excess slime coat, it appeared to be more clear than I thought excess slime coat could be. 

I'll be sure to check into all the external parasites you mentioned. Your wealth of knowledge on all of these things amazes me! I've been looking online for external parasites with the free time I've had today; it's really helpful to have a list I can check off, instead of searching online, blindly. Whatever it is, it's something that can't be seen with the naked eye. I've been looking at him extra carefully, since that first post on the 8th, and this is the first time I've actually seen evidence of them. At least the salt is working. 

His fin rot hasn't gotten any worse, I can tell you that much. I haven't seen any signs of fin regrowth yet, but I know it's still a little too early to be holding my breath for that. 

Do you think it would be bad to use the 10 gallon dose of general cure in his 5.5 gallon tank? My whole plan is to just follow the instructions on the packet and treat his tank as if he was in it. (though he won't). I'm going to leave his filter running (sans the filter bag). And once treatment is done, do a water change and run with new filter. I'm going to toss the filter currently in his tank, as well as the filter foam and loose filter bag I have as well. I just don't know if that would be a wise way to treat the tank. I suppose I should find out exactly what's causing this first, though. lol 

Thanks again for everything so far. It's nice to be able to talk to someone about all this. Bowie is hanging in there, he doesn't even seem to mind being in the smaller tank. He blew a massive bubble nest while I was out visiting family today. 





Sakura8 said:


> Moving? Eewww. Don't know what to say about that. What did the goop in his tank look like? Like white and slimy, possibly excess slime coat?
> 
> I'm not sure about the lifespan of flukes either. Hopefully short. There are other external parasites he could get, like tetrahymena, costia, trichodina, and chilodonella. They can cause the same itching/darting reaction and also, because of their presence, cause an increase in slime coat production as the fish attempts to rid himself of the parasites. So that could explain the extra goop. Salt should help to remove them too.
> 
> ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Since he won't actually be in the filter, I don't see any harm in using the full 10g dose. My only concern would be if you have live plants and what might happen to your cycle with double the meds. Granted, most of your filter will be new but I'm not sure . . . If you decide to just use the regular dosage, get a 1 gallon jug, fill with 5 cups dechlorinated water and add the dosage of meds. Shake well. Then pour 1/2 cup of the medicated mixture in per gallon. So . . . 2 3/4 cup of medicated water into the tank. Save the mixture for a few more doses, probably discard and make a new on on the 3rd day.

Haha, I have several books on fish diseases. I was surprised, dismayed, and a bit disgusted by how many external parasites they really can get. Poor fishies. Most of them are too small to be seen without a microscope. Supposedly on some fish, gill and skin flukes can get long enough to be seen but the fish has to be pretty big itself. The rest are invisible nuisances.

As long as Bowie's fin rot isn't getting worse, I'd say we focus on getting rid of the parasites that are stressing his immune system. Once they're taken care of, if his fin rot hasn't healed up by then, we can try something for that. He could be even rubbing some fin off because he itches.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Yikes! I feel like I need to invest in some fish disease books myself, knowledge is power, but I feel like it would depress and make me a bit paranoid to know how many diseases/ parasites there are out there.

We do have slight fin regrowth on his dorsal fin! Very exciting! 

In other news: Yesterday the bottom of his tank was clean, with the exception of some string like (what i'm guessing to be slime coat) fragments and poop, lots of poop. I didn't associate AQ salt with being an expectorant, but there really hasn't been a day without poop, since he's been in QT. Most of the time there's poop within an hour of doing a WC. 

Today there are more "goops" at the bottom of his tank. It's funny, because I unplugged his heater this morning, to feed him, and forgot to turn it back on so if the goops are associated with the parasite, they responded really well to cooler temps. Luckily the thermometer in his tank is still reading 79. -shrug- 

Right now, gill flukes sound more like what he has. I'm remembering that his gills did look rather red to me earlier this week, but they went back to the normal dark overnight, and i've seen red gills being symptomatic of that.

I think I might begin treating the tank tomorrow. The General cure dose is one packet per 10 gallons. I think I'm going to go with that dose. With the way things are going, if Bowie's QT tank was a bomb shelter, I'd bomb the dang thing lol. Parasites are NOT welcome here. I don't have any live plants in there, and don't mind cycling my tank again.

Thanks again for checking in, reading my rambling and responding. 




Sakura8 said:


> Since he won't actually be in the filter, I don't see any harm in using the full 10g dose. My only concern would be if you have live plants and what might happen to your cycle with double the meds. Granted, most of your filter will be new but I'm not sure . . . If you decide to just use the regular dosage, get a 1 gallon jug, fill with 5 cups dechlorinated water and add the dosage of meds. Shake well. Then pour 1/2 cup of the medicated mixture in per gallon. So . . . 2 3/4 cup of medicated water into the tank. Save the mixture for a few more doses, probably discard and make a new on on the 3rd day.
> 
> Haha, I have several books on fish diseases. I was surprised, dismayed, and a bit disgusted by how many external parasites they really can get. Poor fishies. Most of them are too small to be seen without a microscope. Supposedly on some fish, gill and skin flukes can get long enough to be seen but the fish has to be pretty big itself. The rest are invisible nuisances.
> 
> As long as Bowie's fin rot isn't getting worse, I'd say we focus on getting rid of the parasites that are stressing his immune system. Once they're taken care of, if his fin rot hasn't healed up by then, we can try something for that. He could be even rubbing some fin off because he itches.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Haha! I hear ya! When I get parasites in any of my fish, I feel like getting out the blowtorch. 

Some fish just poop a lot, I think. Mine like to hold off until after that big water change and then leave me a nice little gift to suck out with the turkey baster. Such thoughtful little brats. 

I'm so glad he's getting growth on his dorsal. Yay! That means the rot is in check. 

How has he been acting since you started treatment with him?


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes! A blowtorch would work just fine in this situation.  I decided against dropping a preverbial "bomb" and just emptied one powder patch of General Cure into 2 cups of his tank water (in a measuring cup) mixed well, and poured 1 cup in his tank, to treat. I have the other cup waiting in the wings for the second treatment, in 48 hours. 

Bowie has been responding to the salt treatments really well! He's been happy and his swimming doesn't seem to be near as irratic as of late. I 'm really realizing how sick he was getting, after seeing how well he's been processing his food (aka: pooping). That's funny about your fish waiting to poop until after a WC. They are brats, but you've gotta love them; Bowie is beginning to be back to his bratty self, and i love it! (he even flared at me for the first time in a month the other day). 

He'll have been in QT for a week tomorrow. Here's hoping he'll be 100% by Sunday. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and optimisim
With me! You've really been helping Bowie and i through this.


Sakura8 said:


> Haha! I hear ya! When I get parasites in any of my fish, I feel like getting out the blowtorch.
> 
> Some fish just poop a lot, I think. Mine like to hold off until after that big water change and then leave me a nice little gift to suck out with the turkey baster. Such thoughtful little brats.
> 
> ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so glad the salt threatment has been working on the little trooper.  

External parasites that you can't see are hard because well, you can't see them. But they're there and because they're burrowing into the skin, they leave microscopic wounds behind that can become infected with a secondary bacterial infection. That's probably why Bowie wasn't eating as well. It's like having the chicken pox AND stomach flu all at once. 

I'm really glad I could help you, Mardi.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, I'm figuring out how hard external parasites are. It's been over a week and I'm still looking for signs of them. I have a question...

I started salt treatments last Thursday, with just one tsp of AQ salt per gallon; I bumped the dosage up to 3 tsp per gallon last Saturday. I'm kind of nervous about keeping him in the salt for too long. Have you ever kept a fish in salt treatments for that long? This is my first time doing any of this, and I know salt water isn't natural for them. I'm planning on switching him back to clean water with his water change on Sunday night. I just don't want to do anything to hurt him. 

I'm also cautious about taking him out of the QT tank I have, because he's still been swimming around the bottom of the tank; he doesn't appear to be trying to scratch anything, though there's nothing to scratch on in his QT tank. 

Either way, he'll be in the QT tank until, at least, Sunday night. I'm only starting the second part of treating his 5.5 tank this evening. Poor little one, he was in QT for Christmas and will still be in there for New Years, at least he's well on his way to being healthy for New Years. 



Sakura8 said:


> I'm so glad the salt threatment has been working on the little trooper.
> 
> External parasites that you can't see are hard because well, you can't see them. But they're there and because they're burrowing into the skin, they leave microscopic wounds behind that can become infected with a secondary bacterial infection. That's probably why Bowie wasn't eating as well. It's like having the chicken pox AND stomach flu all at once.
> 
> I'm really glad I could help you, Mardi.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

So it's been, like, a week since he's been in the salts? No, I've never kept a fish in that long but that's because I get impatient and yank them out when I think they're all better. This usually backfires on me when the symptoms return a few days later. :roll: Silly me. The maximum time is 14 days, with 10 being preferred. Changing him back to clean water should be fine and you can observe him to see if he's still showing any signs of the parasites. If so, then he may need General Cure as a follow-up. I'd definitely keep him in QT for at least another week because if he isn't all better, you'd have to bug-bomb his tank again.

Hang in there Bowie!


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Just as a side note, the strips are not very accurate. I would suggest getting a drops kit to monitor ammonia. If the strips say .25ppm ammonia it's probably higher and this may be the cause of your fish getting sick and the pin holes you're describing can be ammonia burns. 

Nothing to scratch on the tank? You should at least have a thermometer in there to monitor temp? If he's flashing he may flash on the thermometer. That should help you know when he's fully recovered.

Good to hear he's getting better!


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Excellent! Thanks so much Sakura. 

I'm ringing in the New Year tomorrow by switching Bowie to water with only stress coat as an additive and turning the heat down. He's hanging tough, just can't wait until all of this is over. 



Sakura8 said:


> So it's been, like, a week since he's been in the salts? No, I've never kept a fish in that long but that's because I get impatient and yank them out when I think they're all better. This usually backfires on me when the symptoms return a few days later. :roll: Silly me. The maximum time is 14 days, with 10 being preferred. Changing him back to clean water should be fine and you can observe him to see if he's still showing any signs of the parasites. If so, then he may need General Cure as a follow-up. I'd definitely keep him in QT for at least another week because if he isn't all better, you'd have to bug-bomb his tank again.
> 
> Hang in there Bowie!


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

I appreciate your concern, I do want to clarify that I been monitoring the temp of his tank with a thermometer and I always check the temp with my finger when feeding him 2x's a day.

Also, I do regular water changes and do test for ammonia on an almost obsessive basis, and I had never gotten a reading above "ideal" until the test I did at the beginning of this post, which was two days after the last water change in that particular tank and 24 hours after I had taken him out of that water and was floating him in a separate tank with fresh water inside his regular tank, with a heater to keep temp regular.

Thanks for the suggestions.




callistra said:


> Just as a side note, the strips are not very accurate. I would suggest getting a drops kit to monitor ammonia. If the strips say .25ppm ammonia it's probably higher and this may be the cause of your fish getting sick and the pin holes you're describing can be ammonia burns.
> 
> Nothing to scratch on the tank? You should at least have a thermometer in there to monitor temp? If he's flashing he may flash on the thermometer. That should help you know when he's fully recovered.
> 
> Good to hear he's getting better!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I've always wondered why people say the strips aren't accurate. No one has been able to tell me why, even though I've asked many people. I haven't experienced any problems with them and actually, an article I read in Aquarium Fish International or Tropical Fish Hobbyist (can't remember which one) said they were actually quite accurate. Anyway, does anyone know why the strips aren't considered accurate? I'm dying to know. 

And back on topic, happy new year to you and Bowie, Mardi.  I'm really glad he's getting better. What a little fighter.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Because of environmental changes, such as humidity, oils, etc strips can become ineffective - although I have rarely found any that did not actually work... I use the liquid one. Add 2 chemicals to the water in the given test tube, and it tells you color range of PH, and the others. :/

And I'm gad you figured out what to do with your little guy


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks, Sena! Finally, someone who knows why strips aren't considered accurate. So it's nothing to do with the actual strip, it's more to do with how it's stored over a long term period, maybe?  What I do, actually, is use a test strip and then double-check it with the liquid drops. So far, the results have always matched up.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I have nothing to add to this thread other than I just adore Bowie, he looks just like my Kris


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Happy New Year Sakura! I've declared 2012 the year of Stress Coat, since both of my boys now have that in their tank. lol 

I've never had a problem with using strips either. I've been using the same water and dosing for Remedio, and I doubt he would have as much fin regrowth and would doing as well as he is, if my strips weren't accurate. However, I think I'm going to buy a drip kit the next time I'm out, to compare the results of that to my strips. I'm curious to see how differently they register.

I hope your New Year is off to a wonderful start!



Sakura8 said:


> I've always wondered why people say the strips aren't accurate. No one has been able to tell me why, even though I've asked many people. I haven't experienced any problems with them and actually, an article I read in Aquarium Fish International or Tropical Fish Hobbyist (can't remember which one) said they were actually quite accurate. Anyway, does anyone know why the strips aren't considered accurate? I'm dying to know.
> 
> And back on topic, happy new year to you and Bowie, Mardi.  I'm really glad he's getting better. What a little fighter.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Thank you, Sena! Bowie and I both appreciate all the well wishes, and I surely have a great support system here, helping us through it all.  

And thanks for the info about the strips! I figured environmental factors were the reason, and have always been careful about opening and keeping my strips sealed before and in-between uses. I still think I'm going to pick up a drip kit and see how differently they register. 

Thanks for the reply, and I hope 2012 is off to a wonderful start for you! 



Sena Hansler said:


> Because of environmental changes, such as humidity, oils, etc strips can become ineffective - although I have rarely found any that did not actually work... I use the liquid one. Add 2 chemicals to the water in the given test tube, and it tells you color range of PH, and the others. :/
> 
> And I'm gad you figured out what to do with your little guy


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Awwww...! Thanks Pitluvs! Bowie is my little lover boy. And I have seen pictures of Kris, and I agree, they are both quite handsome. I'm sorry Kris has been having so much trouble with his Swim Bladder, though. :-( 

Happy New Year to you and your family, PitLuvs and thanks so much for all the support you've given me since I've joined this forum; it's really lovely to be able to come here and find people to relate and share information with. :-D

.


Pitluvs said:


> I have nothing to add to this thread other than I just adore Bowie, he looks just like my Kris


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

I don't really have any advice to give you but I just wanted to wish you both well and I hope Bowie recovers soon. Happy new year!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

yup, strips aren't the problem, it's just how they are kept, and of course how old they are  That's why they should always be sealed, in plastic baggies or something like a container, and in a cool dry place away from water, heat, and oiley objects.

And I do agree, your boy is very pretty


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Thank you so much, Spooky Tooth! Bowie and I both appreciate the well wishes, very much. 

I hope 2012 is off to a wonderful start for you! Thanks so much, again; you all are making me feel all warm and fuzzy like. What a great way to start the New Year! 



SpookyTooth said:


> I don't really have any advice to give you but I just wanted to wish you both well and I hope Bowie recovers soon. Happy new year!


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

You're welcome and thank you as well !


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey, Sena! 

He is quite the handsome fellow, but doesn't have an ego about it. (Though my other boy, Remedio, seems to have enough ego for the both of them, lol). 

Thanks again! 


Sena Hansler said:


> yup, strips aren't the problem, it's just how they are kept, and of course how old they are  That's why they should always be sealed, in plastic baggies or something like a container, and in a cool dry place away from water, heat, and oiley objects.
> 
> And I do agree, your boy is very pretty


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

*Picture Spam!*

Sorry, don't mean to spam, but here are some photos of Bowie, taken since all of this went down. 

Photo 1- Bowie Last Friday 12-23-11
Photo 2- Bowie Today 1-1-12
Photo 3- The "skyline" Christmas bubble nest Bowie built 12-25-11

And I do know it looks like he still has some black areas on his anal fin. However, that exact area on the anal fin was the last area to clear up on my fin rot rescue, Remedio, so i'm still keeping a hawk eye out, though not terribly concerned about it.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

nice bubble nest :lol: And when I got El Dorado at first, he had the ego bigger than his 10 gallon tank. Now...idk :/ lol!! Now Shadow is the ego boy


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

LOL! Betta's and their egos, makes me smile. 

Is El Dorado your avatar? If so, he is STUNNING! I've been looking around pet stores to get a golden yellow like him for ages. (Even if it's not El Dorado, my thought still remains, lol). 



Sena Hansler said:


> nice bubble nest :lol: And when I got El Dorado at first, he had the ego bigger than his 10 gallon tank. Now...idk :/ lol!! Now Shadow is the ego boy


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: yes he is!! He fits his name well. He and Shadow are my boys, and won't be adopted out ever ever ever!! :lol:


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

His name does suit him well. And good! I've been thinking about taking in sick Betta's, helping them heal, and then adopting them out myself, in my area. I have a ways to go before I'd feel comfortable taking on that kind of responsibility; (and getting enough people involved to help take the once who would be up for adoption), but even if I did, Bowie and Remedio would never EVER be adopted out. I've even recently been struck with the desire to move out of the country, but stop once I think about having to leave them in someone else's care. lol 



Sena Hansler said:


> :lol: yes he is!! He fits his name well. He and Shadow are my boys, and won't be adopted out ever ever ever!! :lol:


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: oh I know right? I couldn't leave my babies behind!! D:


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Bowie has been in clean water w/ stress coat since Sunday evening. He's been doing wonderfully! No flashing or massive amounts of slime coat on the bottom of the hospital tank. His regular 5.5 has been treated with general cure, which ran it's course on Sunday night, when I put in a new filter.

I'm going to baffle his tank and probably put him back in the 5.5 this evening. My only concern is that there seems to be planaria in there, which weren't before any of this happened. bleh. But he's been doing so well, even for a few days prior to stopping the salt treatments, I just think it would be best for him to get out of the hospital and back home. 

Now, i just have to treat his WC bucket and siphon, (which I haven't used since all of this went down) and things should, hopefully, be back to normal.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Best way to handle planaria is just suck as many out with the gravel vac. They're gross but harmless.

Hurray for Bowie! I'm really glad he seems to be well on the road to recovery. Way to go, little betta buddy!


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, they are gross!

I've heard of some Betta's eating them, but Bowie just kind of stares at them and seems as disgusted by them as I am, lol. He's all, "I'm not THAT hungry." 

He's doing well. It's going to take me a while to simmer down and not freak out whenever I seem him going near something he could scratch on. But other than that, he seems to be back to how I remember him being when I first brought him home, just minus the flaring. I'm going to go out and buy him a moss ball today, planning on keeping it in QT with regular WC, (when I do Bowie's) for 5 weeks. 

I'm a bit concerned that his new fin growth has seemed to stop since Wednesday. I've been dosing his tank with the same dosage I've been using for Remedio. I'm going out to buy some water testing supplies today. What I used to baffle his tank didn't baffle the tank as much as I anticipated, so current might have knocked it all off, feeling pretty dumb over that. -grumbles-.

I'm really close to tossing the filter I have, it's been nothing but a headache. 

And now i'm rambling....

Thanks for everything, Sakura! I'll keep updating on his progress.



Sakura8 said:


> Best way to handle planaria is just suck as many out with the gravel vac. They're gross but harmless.
> 
> Hurray for Bowie! I'm really glad he seems to be well on the road to recovery. Way to go, little betta buddy!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

So you haven't seen any more clear/whitish growth at the tips? Maybe he's grown as much as he can right now and it's starting to color in. As long as the fins aren't getting shorter, I wouldn't worry too much. Sometimes the growth starts out fast and kind of levels out to where you don't really notice they're growing fin until suddenly, you look over and they're back to normal. I know, easy for me to say don't worry.  These little guys, who knew they'd make us worry so darn much. 

What kind of filter is it? I found one of the best filters for a 5g tank is the Marineland Duetto 50. It's an internal filter that you just stick to the inside of the tank and you can direct the flow of water into the wall or something so it doesn't create a big current. My Petco carries them so maybe if you have a Petco nearby, it will too? 

I'm really glad the little guy is over his itchies.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Nope, no more white growth at the tips. Though, he does have some transparent areas that haven't seemed to fill in or color up yet. 
I know, I just have to keep in mind that every Betta is different. I'm just going to keep on doing what I'm doing for Remedio, since I've had great success with his fin growth, so far. My little ones are sure keeping me on my toes! I love them both, though. 

And nope, fins haven't grown any shorter, so that's good. 

I'll be on the lookout for the marineland duetto. Thanks so much for the suggestion! I've been doing research on filters, because I'd like to put one in Remedio's tank, as well as replace Bowie's.

I'm glad he seems to be doing well. I'm still keeping an eye on him. He hasn't been back in his tank for a full week yet, so I'm still on the offensive, Parasites better beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Sakura8 said:


> So you haven't seen any more clear/whitish growth at the tips? Maybe he's grown as much as he can right now and it's starting to color in. As long as the fins aren't getting shorter, I wouldn't worry too much. Sometimes the growth starts out fast and kind of levels out to where you don't really notice they're growing fin until suddenly, you look over and they're back to normal. I know, easy for me to say don't worry.  These little guys, who knew they'd make us worry so darn much.
> 
> What kind of filter is it? I found one of the best filters for a 5g tank is the Marineland Duetto 50. It's an internal filter that you just stick to the inside of the tank and you can direct the flow of water into the wall or something so it doesn't create a big current. My Petco carries them so maybe if you have a Petco nearby, it will too?
> 
> I'm really glad the little guy is over his itchies.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

So it'll be a week tomorrow since I put Bowie back in his 5.5 gallon; and he's doing wonderfully!

His fins seem to be growing back, he's active and I haven't seen him scratch at all. This morning, I noticed he was even flaring at his reflection on the black part of his filter, hanging on the outside his tank. I chuckled a little bit, thought "He's baaaaaack!" and then cut off a piece of a woven drawer liner roll we have and wrapped it around the part of the filter he was flaring at, to prevent him from getting too stressed. 

I just wanted to give an update, and thank everyone who gave advice and wished Bowie well. He's doing wonderfully, I'm so happy. :-D


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hurray! *does happy dance* Go Bowie! Great job, Mardi.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm sad to report that it appears Bowie is in the beginning stages of dropsy. :-(

His fins have become clamped, he's really disinterested in me, though he ate last night, I haven't attempted to feed him yet today. and his belly appears to be getting grey. I'm off to buy some maracyn and jungle pellets and see if he'll take them. It's taking all my energy to not be in tears right now; I want my beautiful, healthy boy back. I feel kind of selfish asking for this, but any and all healthy thoughts and good vibes would be welcome.

Also, if you want to tell me it doesn't look like dropsy, I would be more than happy to believe that.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Not quite dropsy but looks like the start of an internal bacterial infection.  Aww, Bowie. I hope he eats the Jungle Labs pellets because feeding medicated food is the best way to treat internal infections. If the Maracyn doesn't work, search for Seachem Kanaplex, as it is more effective. Hard to find though. One other thing: test your nitrites and nitrates to see if they are possibly high.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Aw, Sakura! I can always count on you. 

I was obviously in panic mode this morning. I did a WC on Wednesday, and started noticing the clamped fins Friday night. I did a complete water testing, with a Top Fin master kit, just to rule that out. Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites were all at 0 and PH was at 7.6. I did a small WC, which seemed to perk him up a bit, but that didn't last into Saturday morning, and that's when I started freaking out. I did a 50% WC, even smell-checked the water to rule out the heater leaking, before leaving for the store to get meds. By the time I got back, he had perked up. And since I got home, about 4:30PM, he's been active and his pectoral fins are no longer clamped. He ate all his dinner. I haven't started using any meds, yet. 

I'm thinking something must have happened with the WC I did on Wednesday. I'm still concerned about his grey belly, but the grey area seems to have decreased a tiny bit from the pictures I posted earlier. I'll be sure to post some pictures in the morning to compare how he's doing. For now, he seems to be ok. 

Thanks so much, again Sakura! It's nice to have a support system here, I just feel so bad and helpless, my poor Bowie has been through way too much since Christmas. :-(



Sakura8 said:


> Not quite dropsy but looks like the start of an internal bacterial infection.  Aww, Bowie. I hope he eats the Jungle Labs pellets because feeding medicated food is the best way to treat internal infections. If the Maracyn doesn't work, search for Seachem Kanaplex, as it is more effective. Hard to find though. One other thing: test your nitrites and nitrates to see if they are possibly high.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Well, it never hurts to have some meds on hand. I just hope you won't have to use them. I'm glad everything checked out with his water params. I know I sometimes forget that high nitrites and nitrates can be just as toxic as ammonia so that's why I wanted you to make sure that wasn't the cause. Phew! I'm glad he's begun to declamp and is back to eating but you're right, the grey belly is still a cause for concern. If it continues, we can always try him in 1 tsp of epsom salt per gallon and see if that makes a difference. You can also start him on the Jungle pellets if he'll eat them. They may need to be crushed up and/or soaked in garlic juice as I've heard they don't taste too good. 

Yup, Bowie is a trooper all right. He's just going through a bad spell but once it's over, I bet he'll have a problem free life.  You're doing a great job, Mardi.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Thank you! I sure hope he does have a problem free life after this. 

How long would you recommend soaking the pellets in garlic juice? I don't want to loose any of the nutrients the pellets have in them.I had to wake the poor dear up this morning, to check on him. He was none too happy, but is now swimming around. Going to go to my local grocery store and pic up one of those containers of pre cut garlic and just use the liquid from that. At least that's what I'm planning on doing, being Italian, I've always cut garlic myself, lol, so I'm not sure exactly what's in the liquid in one of those containers, but I'll figure it out. 

He is such a trooper. Once this is all said and done, I'm so giving him both moss balls that I have in QT right now, as a present (once their safe, of course).





Sakura8 said:


> Well, it never hurts to have some meds on hand. I just hope you won't have to use them. I'm glad everything checked out with his water params. I know I sometimes forget that high nitrites and nitrates can be just as toxic as ammonia so that's why I wanted you to make sure that wasn't the cause. Phew! I'm glad he's begun to declamp and is back to eating but you're right, the grey belly is still a cause for concern. If it continues, we can always try him in 1 tsp of epsom salt per gallon and see if that makes a difference. You can also start him on the Jungle pellets if he'll eat them. They may need to be crushed up and/or soaked in garlic juice as I've heard they don't taste too good.
> 
> Yup, Bowie is a trooper all right. He's just going through a bad spell but once it's over, I bet he'll have a problem free life.  You're doing a great job, Mardi.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'd soak them just enough that they get some garlic flavor. Even a quick dip in and out should be enough. 

I bet he'll love his moss balls.


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## diablo13 (Jul 1, 2011)

I've heard you should soak them for 15 minutes, but any garlic should help.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you don't want to use Maracyn and Maracyn 2 in combo what you want is Maracyn 2 as Maracyn won't go internal. Maybe even Maracyn Plus. Kanaplex would be good. I've found through recent usage that Kanaplex soaked fed (10-15min soak in garlic guard with one measure each of focus and Kanaplex) fed 2 pellets Omega One or Hikari twice a day and that was SO much more effective than just the bath. I would feed 2 weeks and reevaluate. 

If you're soaking just for taste then you don't need to soak as long but the 10-15min is good amount when your'e trying to soak meds into the pellet.

ETA: I haven't read through the whole thread but I see you cleared up an external case of parasites so it's possible he has some internal parasites instead of bacterial.. hard to know which. If it ends up being parasites then Metronidazole + focus soaked pellets or anti parasite jungle food will work. Feed a minimum of 2 weeks but from experience I would feed 3-4. Seachem has said 4 is safe.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

So, I attempted to feed Bowie his first bit of medicated pellets. My glass half full self says between the four pellets I fed him, he probably ate a total of one; in actuality, it's more likely he ate about half of one. It was hard to tell, because I fed him about three, before realizing he was hiding them in his mouth, instead of eating them. What I bought yesterday was the jungle, anti-bacterial pellets.

I have NOT started using anything in his tank, because aside from being clamped and having a grey belly, he has no other symptoms. The symptoms he does have, however seem more in line with a bacterial infection than a parasitic one (in my amateur opinion). From what I understand, internal parasites would make him emaciated. Which, though he does seem to be on the lower side of a healthy weight, in my opinion; I have been feeding him between 6-8 NLS pellets 2 x's a day, which he eats with gusto, it seems like a lot to me, but I just always attributed that to the fact that he's quite active and has a lot of room to swim. Through all of this, his appetite is one thing that hasn't really been effected. 

Please feel free to correct me if I have some wrong information. I really want to be giving him everything he needs to have the best chance at beating this before he gets any worse.

Right now, I'm just feeding him the medicated pellets to see how much/ if he improves on it. I haven't taken him out of his 5.5 gallon... yet. He has no problems swimming and isn't swimming erratically, from what I can tell. 

As long as he's willing to fight, then I am as well. 
-cue: Queen's "We are the Champions"-


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If he won't eat the jungle pellets you're going to have to do something different. You can mix up your own with the Kanaplex like above or use one of those above meds in a bath as they are absorbed internally and will work on internal infections without the need to feed. Kanaplex will too but I've found it -so- much more effective when fed I will be feeding for internal from now on.

I like NLS best too but they are worthless for soaking. Get Hikari or Omega one for the med soaks, if you want to go that route.

Long term, internal parasites can cause emaciation. What you are describing now could still be parasites but I would also treat for bacterial first. If you know what his poop looks like this would be helpful.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Can't say I'm surprised that he turned up his nose at the Jungle Labs pellets. They're mostly wheat meal and medicine so they can't taste too good. I would put him in 1 tsp of epsom salt per gallon while we do a quick evaluation on his poops. 

Kanaplex is probably the most effective at treating internal bacterial infections but the problem is it's really hard to find in store and most people have to order it online. That's really the only reason I don't recommend it more often. Mardi, if you have a good LFS by you, you can \ look for a product called Hikari HealthAid Metro. This powder can be used to make a food soak/paste for bloodworms or regular pellets. If we administer this to Bowie, it will pack a 1-2 punch against both internal bacterial diseases and possible internal parasites. 

However, I'm a bit iffy on the internal parasites. Most types of external parasites don't go internal. There are a few exceptions such as velvet, ich, and tetrahyema, but the infestation has to be very severe. In those cases, there would be definite signs of ulceration, which is what allows the external parasites to go internal. Either way, if we can get some metronidazole down him, that would be helpful.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

*Some Pictures....*

Taken just a few moments ago.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That belly does look gray.  Not super bloated, thank goodness, but definitely the beginnings of an internal problem. Do you think you can find the HealthAid Metro at a local fish store, Mardi?


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey, Sakura!

He actually ate more than I thought he would. This is the same boy who turned his nose up at every pellet I tried to feed him, before having success with NLS pellets. The fact that he even ate most of one, and then picked at the rest is a good sign, to me. He had NLS for dinner last night, so I'm nor surprised that he's not hungry enough to make a meal of something new.

He's been active and curious all day, and doesn't really seem to be in distress... yet. And you're right, doing a quick search on seachem's website, the closest place to me that does have Kanaplex wouldn't be close enough for me to drive, I'd have to have it mailed. I haven't been able to find a place near me that sells the Healthaid metro either, I'm going to make some more calls tomorrow. For now, I have the garlic and have been soaking the anti-bacterial pellets in them. I have maracyn, maracyn 2, general cure, AQ salt and epsom salt in my Betta Medicine Cabinet; would you still recommend I order some Kanaplx, or do you think I should put him in one of those now?

I know his belly doesn't look to good, but he's in a MUCH better state today than he was yesterday. He hasn't pooped within the last 24 hours, but I'll be sure to look at it, when he does. He was pooping on a nice basis, all this week, and from what I can remember, they all looked normal. 

I'm off to see if he'll eat some more of the medicated pellets and put him in some epsom.

Thanks so much for the quick reply, Sakura! 








Sakura8 said:


> Can't say I'm surprised that he turned up his nose at the Jungle Labs pellets. They're mostly wheat meal and medicine so they can't taste too good. I would put him in 1 tsp of epsom salt per gallon while we do a quick evaluation on his poops.
> 
> Kanaplex is probably the most effective at treating internal bacterial infections but the problem is it's really hard to find in store and most people have to order it online. That's really the only reason I don't recommend it more often. Mardi, if you have a good LFS by you, you can \ look for a product called Hikari HealthAid Metro. This powder can be used to make a food soak/paste for bloodworms or regular pellets. If we administer this to Bowie, it will pack a 1-2 punch against both internal bacterial diseases and possible internal parasites.
> 
> However, I'm a bit iffy on the internal parasites. Most types of external parasites don't go internal. There are a few exceptions such as velvet, ich, and tetrahyema, but the infestation has to be very severe. In those cases, there would be definite signs of ulceration, which is what allows the external parasites to go internal. Either way, if we can get some metronidazole down him, that would be helpful.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I think Kanaplex would be helpful but it all depends on you and if you want to spend money on more fish meds. I think the Maracyn combo and epsom salt will be just as effective for now since it's not full-blown dropsy. How long have you had the Maracyns? Check the expiration date just to be sure because it goes bad very fast after its expiry date. If we can get him to eat even a few pellets a day, that would be helpful. One way is to feed him only at the end of the day. That way he gets kind of hungry. 

If you can find the Healthaid Metro, great, but if not don't fret too much. I think what you have on hand will work too.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-881-Kanaplex-5gram/dp/B0002DGMXY

^ I found it. Ordering more meds really isn't a problem. I haven't even opened the maracyn yet, so I can always return it, if i decide to. Do you think this size will be enough? I could have it shipped overnight.

I tried to feed him more pellets, he wasn't having it, even after I let them soak longer. Blah, I still can't believe this is happening. This is nothing aside from clamped fins and a belly to show that there's anything wrong with him. 

I guess that's a mistake some people make, and then it turns into dropsy. I hope he'll be more hungry tomorrow morning. 

Blah.




Sakura8 said:


> I think Kanaplex would be helpful but it all depends on you and if you want to spend money on more fish meds. I think the Maracyn combo and epsom salt will be just as effective for now since it's not full-blown dropsy. How long have you had the Maracyns? Check the expiration date just to be sure because it goes bad very fast after its expiry date. If we can get him to eat even a few pellets a day, that would be helpful. One way is to feed him only at the end of the day. That way he gets kind of hungry.
> 
> If you can find the Healthaid Metro, great, but if not don't fret too much. I think what you have on hand will work too.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Hikari-USA-Me...-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1326689909&sr=1-1-fkmr0

^Is this the food soak? If so, I'm totally going to get it, he'll be stoked to have bloodworms.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Mardi, yup and yup. Thank God for Amazon.  We'll have more luck treating him with metro-soaked worms than with the jungle pellets.

Now that you have the Kanaplex coming, you might want to return the Maracyns if you can. Kanaplex is way better.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Amazon is amazing!

I did the fastest shipping option I could on both. It looks like the Hikari metro will be here before the Kanaplex. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll both be here before their estimated ship dates. I'm going to hold off on returning the Maracyn, just in case. I've always had stuff from amazon arrive before or right on the estimated shipping date.

-fingers crossed-



Sakura8 said:


> Mardi, yup and yup. Thank God for Amazon.  We'll have more luck treating him with metro-soaked worms than with the jungle pellets.
> 
> Now that you have the Kanaplex coming, you might want to return the Maracyns if you can. Kanaplex is way better.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It all sounds like a great plan. 

When the metro arrives, you can go here: 
http://uskoi.com/med_feed_-_dry.htm
I've never used these instructions to make medicated food before, though, so I'm just a tiny bit iffy on the use of alcohol as a binder.

I'll find out the dosage needed for a different method of making medicated food.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Wonderful!

And what's the other method? i'm going to start researching as well. This should be quite the experience, making medicated food. 

Thank you so much, Sakura! You've been amazing to Bowie and I. 



Sakura8 said:


> It all sounds like a great plan.
> 
> When the metro arrives, you can go here:
> http://uskoi.com/med_feed_-_dry.htm
> ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Instead of alcohol, it uses a small amount of vegetable oil to bind the medicine to the worms. It's the method recommended in one of my disease books, *The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases* by Lance Jepsen. I'm just not sure about giving alcohol soaked foods to a sick betta. I asked DarkMoon17 about that so we'll see what she says.

I'm really glad I can help you, Mardi.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Vegetable Oil would be ideal, since I have that in stock; alcohol, not so much. lol. 



Sakura8 said:


> Instead of alcohol, it uses a small amount of vegetable oil to bind the medicine to the worms. It's the method recommended in one of my disease books, *The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases* by Lance Jepsen. I'm just not sure about giving alcohol soaked foods to a sick betta. I asked DarkMoon17 about that so we'll see what she says.
> 
> I'm really glad I can help you, Mardi.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Bowie ate 1 anti biotic pellet for breakfast and 3 for dinner. 

He seems to prefer them straight up, as opposed to being soaked in garlic. 

His respiration is REALLY intense, but only when he eats. When I did his wc a few moments ago, it looked like his gills might fly off. :-(

His poop looked pretty normal. There was evidence of the NLS pellets I fed him Saturday night, and then there was a lighter, more fuzzy (I want to use the term fuzzy lightly, because it wasn't cottony). There was much less of it, so I'm not sure if that was from the 1 anti biotic pellet he had this morning.

His fins are doing ok, there seems to be a bit of fraying at the ends, he's not lethargic or thrashing.

I'm not sure what to think about this being parasitic vs. bacterial anymore. I am happy to have finally gotten some meds in him.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

DarkMoon says vegetable oil is the way to go. 1 tsp of the metro mixed with the vegetable oil to make a paste, then mix in the bloodworms and let it air dry a bit. Store in the fridge, well-marked so no one mistakes them for a midnight snack. 

EDIT: That's good news Bowie ate some of the pellets. Yay! 

The other good news is that whether it's bacterial or parasitic, the metro will treat both.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Holy Shish Kebobs!

Bowie just passed a whole load of crud! I was getting worried about him, and was even ready to put him in maracyn; but I just checked his tank and there's a large thing of poop and a ton of salt looking particles on the bottom of his tank. 

I was trying to get a good look at his belly, but every time I turned my head to get a good view, he turned with me like; "what, what!" lol 


YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh thank goodness! The jungle labs pellets worked! Way to go Bowie! Give me a high fin!


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

I can't even tell you how much I am happy dancing right now; what a fighter!

His belly is still grey, but he's no longer as bloated as he was. I'm going to finish the pellets through the recommended course and keep him in epsom. 

Now, what to do with his tank....



Sakura8 said:


> Oh thank goodness! The jungle labs pellets worked! Way to go Bowie! Give me a high fin!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so happy for you, Mardi.  You and Bowie both. This is very good news.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Bowie has been such a trooper.

He's been eating the medicated pellets like a champ, which will have run their course on Wednesday, I believe. (Since I'm not counting the first day I attempted to feed him the pellets). 

concerns: There hasn't been any major difference in his belly. It's a lighter shade of grey and is still pretty full, though i'm not 100% the big stomach isn't from the pellets, which are a far cry from the NLS his system has been used to. At this point, I'm leaning more and more towards him having internal parasites. I'm planning on going shopping this afternoon for jungle parasite clear, if I can find it.

Unless anyone has had success with treating internal parasites with the general cure I have on hand? Or am I jumping the gun on this? His poop is normal, but he does have a slight bend in his spine, AT TIMES, when I observe him in his water change cup. I've been feeding him four of the anti bacterial pellets per day, (2 in morning, 2 at night). I just expected to see a bit more improvement in his stomach from this point if it was a bacterial infection.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Well, just did my daily photo shoot while feeding him.

He has developed grey patches on his face, seemingly overnight. There's no doubt in my mind this is bacterial now. I'm going to clean out his 5.5 and start him on a maracyn combo in that today. 

Kanaplex STILL hasn't arrived (but I'll save that rant for another time) 

Maracyn says I don't need to do a water change during the 5 day treatment, so I can just keep on adding meds to the same water? Also, I have to double check which one is light sensitive. 


Here we go........


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You can mix up your own anti parasite food using Seachem Metro and Focus. You can probably use General Cure the same way but I've never fed Prazi.. so IDK about that one.. 

To do so you will fully dissolve the entire packet of general cure (or one measure each of metro and focus) in a small amount of treated water or garlic guard (seachem's pure 100% garlic juice extract.. think Kent has something similar) for 10-15min. Feed 2 pellets twice a day for a minimum of 2 weeks but in my experience I would extend it a minimum of 1 week past when he looks 100% or you risk reoccurrence. Metro is safe to feed for up to 4 weeks, but again no experience on the prazi.. there are medicated meds with prazi in them so I think it should be fine.

NLS will not work for the soaking as they have so little wheat they don't soak hardly anything up and then drop like a paperweight after a couple minutes anyway. Although I don't suggest Hikari normally due to the high wheat content, they're great for soaking for this reason. I have also successfully used Omega One, though I'm sure others will work too.. I just know NLS dont' soak well.

ETA: You can feed Maracyns too the same way you would do the above.. packet dissolved and mix. You definitely need to mix this up fresh every 24 hrs but I mix up fresh each feeding.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

In my last post I said he recently developed grey patches on his face, which turned me back to thinking this was still bacterial. Maybe the anti bacterial food wasn't enough? I've mixed up maracyn already and am about to acclimate him to it. 



callistra said:


> You can mix up your own anti parasite food using Seachem Metro and Focus. You can probably use General Cure the same way but I've never fed Prazi.. so IDK about that one..
> 
> To do so you will fully dissolve the entire packet of general cure (or one measure each of metro and focus) in a small amount of treated water or garlic guard (seachem's pure 100% garlic juice extract.. think Kent has something similar) for 10-15min. Feed 2 pellets twice a day for a minimum of 2 weeks but in my experience I would extend it a minimum of 1 week past when he looks 100% or you risk reoccurrence. Metro is safe to feed for up to 4 weeks, but again no experience on the prazi.. there are medicated meds with prazi in them so I think it should be fine.
> 
> ...


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

So, using dosage I saw recommended in another thread, 

I put the recommended 1st dose of both meds in about 10 cups of water, mixed well and then put about 1/2 cup of that mixture into a gallon water bottle, added more water until I had a full gallon and acclimated Bowie. 

He's now floating with two towels over his 5.5.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Mardi, sorry I was offline. My mother was kind enough to share her cold with me.  So no real change in his belly. Were the pellets the anti-bacterial pellets or the anti-parasite pellets? 

We'll let the Maracyns run their course and cross our fingers that it works. Otherwise, at the end of their course, we may need to give him a few days of just clean water and then start him on the Kanaplex.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Aw! don't you know that a cold is the ultimate gift of love, Sakura. lol

In all seriousness though, I am sorry you're not feeling well. You don't have to apologize for anything! Not being online is a sign you're taking care of yourself, which is 100% ok with me. I even PM'd darkmoon, but ultimately decided to go with my gut and what I had on hand. I've been feeding him the anti bacterial pellets.

Thank you for keeping your fingers crossed. I just hope I made the right decision. I've never medicated a fish before. Sure, I've had to use salts and used the general cure in his tank, without him being in it, but that's the extent of my experience. 

I'm beyond irate that the kanaplex hasn't arrived yet. Hopefully it'll be here within the next six days. -sigh-

I've only had him since October, and he just can't leave me yet, he just can't!



Sakura8 said:


> Hi Mardi, sorry I was offline. My mother was kind enough to share her cold with me.  So no real change in his belly. Were the pellets the anti-bacterial pellets or the anti-parasite pellets?
> 
> We'll let the Maracyns run their course and cross our fingers that it works. Otherwise, at the end of their course, we may need to give him a few days of just clean water and then start him on the Kanaplex.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks, Mardi. You're so sweet. :3

Well, the Maracyns are usually what I do recommend for bacterial infections just because it's so hard for most people to find the Kanaplex locally. It's better to get him started on those than wait who knows how long for the Kanaplex to arrive; wait too long and it could develop into dropsy. You dosed everything right using the jug method so no need to worry there. Your gut told you the right thing and you made the right call.


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## animals1315 (Jan 23, 2012)

that looks like salt to me, and you don't really need aquarium salt in there, and second get a liquid kit like this instead: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4345+4454&pcatid=4454, I saw the exact same one at creature comforts for 19.99 but if you don't I would still order it real handy. Anyways I'm not a 100% but that is porublay aquiarum salt and your fish definetly on the top fin has fin rot, I suggest you put some sand or gravel there... as to take of the salf get a spihon and suck it up and use tertacycline for the fish rot, works great and is fairly easy to find, hope this helps


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Thank you so much, Sakura! 

You're the sweet one! I can't believe you're on here, when sick. 

It's good to know my gut told me the right thing, I even got a PM from Darkmoon telling me the same. ^_^ 



Sakura8 said:


> Thanks, Mardi. You're so sweet. :3
> 
> Well, the Maracyns are usually what I do recommend for bacterial infections just because it's so hard for most people to find the Kanaplex locally. It's better to get him started on those than wait who knows how long for the Kanaplex to arrive; wait too long and it could develop into dropsy. You dosed everything right using the jug method so no need to worry there. Your gut told you the right thing and you made the right call.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*hugs* If DarkMoon okays it, you know you're on the right track.  Almost everything I know about treating betta diseases I learned from her. She's been so patient, answering all my many questions. Sometimes I feel like I should pay her tuition since she's taught me so much.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

This was my first interaction with her, and I have to say I'm really touched that she took the time to read this thread and respond to me. 

You both are full of knowledge and generosity, it really astounds me. 

Good news is that Bowie doesn't seem as bloated this evening!
Belly is still grey, but not as distended= excitement!

I had a whoops moment though; I took him into my laundry room, to feed him and turned the light on to check him out. He ate , and all was well, until I turned around and realized I had left the door open which put some light into the kitchen where his maracyn medicated water was sitting on a counter close to the door. -sigh- 

It was no longer than 10 minutes, and there wasn't direct light on it,. so hopefully it didn't do any damage. :-/




Sakura8 said:


> *hugs* If DarkMoon okays it, you know you're on the right track.  Almost everything I know about treating betta diseases I learned from her. She's been so patient, answering all my many questions. Sometimes I feel like I should pay her tuition since she's taught me so much.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Bowie is no longer bloated, as a matter of fact, he's looking downright thin to me! I think I'm going to go back to feeding him the NLS pellets with his evening meal tomorrow. He refused all but one anti-biotic pellet this evening, and it'll be 10 days eating the anti biotic pellets tomorrow. 

Belly is still grey, he's still spunky even built a little nest.

My warrior is hanging in there.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The best news is that he's not bloated.  I wish we could get his belly to turn back to normal but as long as he only has a grey belly and not a grey, bloated belly, we're definitely making progress. Starting him back on his regular diet sounds like a plan. The Jungle pellets may be medicated but they're the unhealthiest things, chock full of wheat germ and little nutritional value. Time to get some good protein in him.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey Sakura! 

How has the battle against the cold been going?

Even more good news this evening!

Bowie's stomach and face seem to be a much better color this evening. He gobbled up his NLS pellets with much gratitude, it seems. 

Tomorrow will be the fifth dose of Maracyn. I'm willing to give his system a bit of a break and see how his system does after the fifth recommended say.Do you have any thoughts on that? His belly is still a shade of grey but he seems to be on the up; I just don't want to hault a good thing. 

Thanks for everything, again. It's all :-D's from Bowie and I here.



Sakura8 said:


> The best news is that he's not bloated.  I wish we could get his belly to turn back to normal but as long as he only has a grey belly and not a grey, bloated belly, we're definitely making progress. Starting him back on his regular diet sounds like a plan. The Jungle pellets may be medicated but they're the unhealthiest things, chock full of wheat germ and little nutritional value. Time to get some good protein in him.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I have triumphed over the cold! *brandishes kleenex* I think it was made worse by the sawdust and paint dust (remodeling the kitchen). Thanks. 

I'm so glad his color is coming back. Yay! He sounds like he's almost back to 100%.

Since his behavior is all around good, I would give him a break from the Maracyns. Too much medication can be just as bad as not enough and in this case, I think he's far enough along that I feel comfortable just watching and waiting. You can, however, keep him in 1 tsp of epsom salt per gallon if you wish, to keep his system flushed out. If at any time he loses his appetite, gets lethargic again, or starts to bloat, then hopefully the Kanaplex will have arrived and we can call on the big guns.

I'm really glad I've been able to help you and Bowie out.  *hugs*


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

*Hugs*

I'm glad to hear you were victorious over the cold! And yikes, I remember what it's like to have a house remodeled, especially the kitchen.. no fun at all. Bathroom remodels aren't any better on the respiratory system. We had a new tub installed, and the enamel they used to coat it with, just about suffocated me. 

Bowie is looking even better today. His belly only has a slight touch of grey at the moment. Today is the last day of the maracyn treatments. The way he's looking and responding to me, I'm feeling a lot better about switching him back to normal water. 

Kanaplex is on it's way, just in case. I wound up having to contact the seller, but it should be here by Saturday, even though I'm staying optimistic that I won't need it. I'm going to take my time, putting him back in the 5.5 gallon this time. He's staying out for at least, the next week. 







Sakura8 said:


> I have triumphed over the cold! *brandishes kleenex* I think it was made worse by the sawdust and paint dust (remodeling the kitchen). Thanks.
> 
> I'm so glad his color is coming back. Yay! He sounds like he's almost back to 100%.
> 
> ...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Gotta say I'll take a bathroom remodel over the kitchen any day though. No kitchen sink, stove, or oven. It's been two weeks, going to be at least a week more, possibly two. Sigh. I want my sink baaaaaack! Hard doing water changes on a 20g with a bathroom faucet and a gallon jug.

But hearing that Bowie is doing so much better sure has cheered me up. Yay! What a little fighter he is. Good job, Bowie.


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## mardi (Nov 22, 2011)

Aw! Yeah, I understand the whole water change in a bathroom sink thing. I know it's gotta be quite the inconvenience.

And Bowie is still doing well!  

He's out of the antibiotics and seems perky. The kanaplex arrived on Friday, so that's waiting in the wings should I need it. Going to do a deep cleaning and remodeling of his 5.5 at some point this week. 

I'm so pleased at how much he's improved. 



Sakura8 said:


> Gotta say I'll take a bathroom remodel over the kitchen any day though. No kitchen sink, stove, or oven. It's been two weeks, going to be at least a week more, possibly two. Sigh. I want my sink baaaaaack! Hard doing water changes on a 20g with a bathroom faucet and a gallon jug.
> 
> But hearing that Bowie is doing so much better sure has cheered me up. Yay! What a little fighter he is. Good job, Bowie.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Just want to say I would have continue treatment for a full 14 days or until he looks 100%. So if he was 100% at day 10 or had been 100% for a bit I would probably stop at 10 but since he was getting so much better but not quite there I would have continued for the full 14. At that point I'd give a break and watch carefully. So long as he continues to improve and does not decline again I would not re medicate for a full week. After a week if he is continuing to improve I'd leave him alone. If he's stable but getting no better then different or more treatment may be in order.

I say this because if you treat to almost okay but back off the meds you risk creating a worse infection than before. 10-14 days is standard for something like this and it would have been very safe to treat another 4 days to be sure. At this point, so long as he is continuing to get better on no meds I wouldn't redose with anything.. If after a week off he is not improving you may try the Kanaplex, or if at any time he seems to regress I'd start right away. Glad he's doing so much better


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