# Betta has Ich really bad!



## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I saw a couple of white dots this morning on my Betta and was asking around, but after doing a water change tonight and turning on his light, I found his tummy covered in Ich. There's also some on his body and fins. I don't know what to do and I'm freaking out. 

Tomorrow I'll go buy some salts as soon as I can, but for now I was thinking of moving him to a smaller tank so I can clean out his main one. I'm so worried right now, he just finished getting over his constipation, and now he has this. Someone help me out, please.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I think I saw another thread from you about this same issue?

The easiest way to treat ich is to raise the water temperature to 86F. 

Ich can't reproduce in warm water. So the elevated temperature disrupts their reproduction.

It can take about 5-6 days to see results using this method. (The white spots are from parasites that have burrowed into the fish, and are protected. They'll eventually fall off, but it takes a few days.)

If this doesn't work, there are some strains of heat-resistant ich. This means raising the temperature another degree or so.

Some additional info might help....

There are 3 parts to the life cycle of Ich:

*Stage 1) trophont* - this is the stage where you see the white spots. The parasite has burrowed into the fish, where it's protected from treatment (which includes medications, salt and heat). So treatment isn't effective here. This stage lasts several days.

*Stage 2) tomont* - the trophont finishes feeding, and falls off. It's now called a tomont. Since it's in the water column, treatments (medications/salt/heat) are effective now - BUT only for several hours. It then forms a protective cyst around itself, so treatment isn't effective. Unfortunately, the organism is reproducing during this time.

*Stage 3) thermonts* - Several days later, the cyst bursts, and lots of new organisms go in search of a host fish. They have several days to find a new host, or they will die. Treatment is effective during this time.

So basically, you have to treat while the parasite is either in the early part of stage 2, or during stage 3.... 

*Raising the temperature* speeds up the life cycle of the fish. This reduces the total amount of time you'll need to use salt/medications. 

*Most strains of Ich can't reproduce at temperatures of 86F or higher.* (However, some strains are now heat resistant, and require higher temps.) So raising the temperature to at least 86F is often the only thing required to treat ich. 

Some people also use aquarium salt or medications (especially ones that contain both malachite/Victoria green and formalin) in addition to heat. But obviously, heat alone is less toxic than adding salt/medication, so it may be something you want to try first.

Because the parasites go through three stages, you'll need to *continue treating for at least THREE DAYS after you see the last of the white spots go away*. This is because the parasite is only visible during stage one. There are other parasites in the tank going through stages two and three, so you need to continue treatment until it's gone through the entire sequence.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Yeah, in that thread I wasn't sure, but I am 100% sure now. It just happened so suddenly, and now he's covered in it. I don't know why, but it happened right when I did a water change. His tank is always between 80 and 86 so I wonder if the heat will do anything at all...


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

It has to be a consistent 86F. 

If it drops below 86F, the parasite will reproduce again...


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Understood. I just got my heater in today. I'm kind of scared to use it since it's so big, but I guess I have no choice. 

I'll rinse out his tank, clean his plants/toys, heat it up, and put him back in. I'll grab some salts or whatever is needed as soon as possible tomorrow.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Updating: My Betta seems to be doing fine as far as eating and attitude. He's swimming around as usual and still hungry. Fins aren't clamped and I have my heater set to 86. 

Hopefully in a couple of hours, I'll be able to head to the pet store and by an air pump/air stone, and some Aquarium Salts to put in there. I have a 6.5 gallon, so is there any advice on how much I should add to his tank? I'm reading like, I tablespoon per 5 gallons or 1 teaspoon per gallon. I just don't want to put in too much.

Finally, even with the light on, I can't seem to see the Ich on him during the day. This may have been why I didn't catch it earlier, but is this normal or should I be able to see it all the time no matter what? Thanks again for the help.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I don't think anyone's here anymore, but I have another update in case anyone has any information to share and help.

I went to the pet store this afternoon to pick some medicine up for my Betta. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a proper air pump for my 6.5 gallon tank (all the ones there were for 9-100 gal tanks). Regardless, before I left, I noticed my Betta's left eye was really swollen. When he turned it, I could see the white part underneath and when he swam around, it kind of shined in the water. So at the store I bought some API Aquarium Salt and some API Melafix, as well as a couple of really tall silk plants for him to lounge in. 

When I got home, I moved him to a temporary 3 gallon tank, completely cleaned my tank (and took out the carbon in my filter), poured in the appropriate amounts of medicine, and placed him back in it. That was around four hours ago. He seems really happy, he's swimming around enjoying his new plants, and still has a big appetite. His fins aren't clamped, and from what I can tell, nearly all of the salty parasites seem to be gone except a few here and there in certain light. When it gets darker, I should have a better view of them if they're there, but...I find myself a little optimistic. If the salt bothered him, I would have seen irregular behavior, right? I have a bookshelf aquarium and the temp is between 86 and 88. I placed my filter a bit high so it splashes around and creates bubbles, and there seems to be billions of tiny air bubbles, so I hope he can breathe easily. My next plan is to repeat these steps tomorrow afternoon, but is there anything I can do now or should be looking for?


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

Why did you decide to add AQ salt? If his eye is swollen that means he could have popeye which is made worse by AQ salt. You would need to add pure epsom salt to reduce swelling in the eye.
I wouldn't have recommended melafix, since there is some controversy surrounding it and your betta only has a simple case of ich and perhaps popeye. If raising the temperature was not enough you could also add Ich-attack, which is an all natural herbal remedy for ich and works very well. As for possible popeye, I would just add epsom salt like recommended above and maybe maracyn/maracyn II if the problem does not resolve itself.
In addition, bettas breathe atmospheric air and don't need aeration in their tank, and most bettas prefer to not have very much water agitation.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

10asartin said:


> Why did you decide to add AQ salt? If his eye is swollen that means he could have popeye which is made worse by AQ salt. You would need to add pure epsom salt to reduce swelling in the eye.
> I wouldn't have recommended melafix, since there is some controversy surrounding it and your betta only has a simple case of ich and perhaps popeye. If raising the temperature was not enough you could also add Ich-attack, which is an all natural herbal remedy for ich and works very well. As for possible popeye, I would just add epsom salt like recommended above and maybe maracyn/maracyn II if the problem does not resolve itself.
> In addition, bettas breathe atmospheric air and don't need aeration in their tank, and most bettas prefer to not have very much water agitation.


Understood, I won't add anymore salt. I had no idea it would make it worse. Should I water change right now or wait until tomorrow? 

I'll look for some Epsom salts tomorrow. Is the AniMed Epsom Salt what I should be grabbing.


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

Definitely do a water change to get the salt out. 
Nah, just buy some cheap standard epsom salt from a pharmacy or walmart. It should be pure magnesium sulfate and non-scented.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

10asartin said:


> Definitely do a water change to get the salt out.
> Nah, just buy some cheap standard epsom salt from a pharmacy or walmart. It should be pure magnesium sulfate and non-scented.


Alright, thank you so much.

If you're still here, should I do a 100% water change, or just a partial. I'm preparing for a 100%, but it would be far less stressful for both of us if I didn't need to. Thanks again for the help.


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

You can do 2-3 50% changes and that should get the salt levels down far enough to not have an effect on him. Then, tomorrow before adding the epsom salt do a 75% change to make sure all the AQ salt is gone.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright, working on that right now. You're a lifesaver. 

I'll do a 50% water change right now, then make certain that the temp of the water stabilizes at around 86, and do another change, and then one more.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

+1 on everything that 10asartin wrote.

Aquarium salt causes fluid retention. You don't want to use this, since his eye is swollen already. I would do the partial waters change to remove it, as 10asartin recommended.

Melafix won't help. (Controversy aside, it's not effective for either ich or popeye.) 

Epsom salt will reduce the fluid buildup in the eye. I would add this at a dosage of 1 teaspoon Epsom salt per gallon of tank water.

If the Epsom salt isn't effective for the popeye within a few days, then the combination of Maracyn/Maracyn 2 would be my next recommendation.


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

Awesome, if you need anymore help just let me know!


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I will, thank you both for all your help. I've been so stressed about this, I've been getting chest pains again. 

Now, this isn't very pressing, but will a 75% be enough tomorrow? I'm assuming some Ich have fallen of him so I figured that a 100% would be necessary. Though I'm not complaining, I hate having to move him out, and he hates having to go.


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

I think he could handle a 100% if that is what you would like to do, but I don't think it is necessary, a 75% should do the trick.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I can't thank you enough. I should be doing the second 50% change relatively soon. 

I feel so dumb for making things worse. Especially with that Melafix. I was told it would work well to cure him, and I listened. I hope my Betta doesn't suffer for this...


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

Don't worry too much, we all make mistakes. I think he will be fine in the long run, especially since you are able to correct the treatment quickly.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

During the water change, I noticed that the temp in the tank dropped by two degrees to 84. 

Does that mean that all of the Ich has reproduced? I think one of my thermometers was off and I put in some water that was a bit colder than I planned...


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't know if that means you have to start over or not. I do not do water changes or vacuums for the entire 2 week treatment, so that's never been an issue for me.


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

You can't really know for sure, but perhaps some managed to, I would doubt it though. If you see more white spots cropping up I would just add some ich-attack to the tank. You will be able to use this in conjunction with epsom salt, high temperature, and maracyn/maracyn II (if you end up using it).


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I don't see any more on him, at the moment, but he does seem itchy.

And his popeye has already gotten much worse. Poor little guy, my heart's breaking. He really looks like he's in pain.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Poor guy. Have you added the Epsom salt? A good dosage for popeye is 1 teaspoon per gallon of tank water. 

Once he's in the Epsom salt, it may take a day or two for the swelling to go down.

If the Epsom salt isn't effective, then go to the Maracyn/Maracyn II combination. Or you could try a broad spectrum medication like a sulfa drug. (Don't use this if you're allergic to sulfa drugs though.) API Triple Sulfa and Mardel Maracyn Plus (must be 'plus') are both good sulfa drugs, if you decide he needs medication.

I wouldn't worry about the temp dropping to 84F during the water change. Most likely, it won't make a difference. Worst case, some of the parasite managed to reproduce, which just means you'd need to keep the temp at 86F for a little longer.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I Just got back from the store, and have a 3 gallon tank mixing some Epsom Salt right now in it. Should I add the ich attack to the full tank or mix it in with the new water in my 75% water change?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright, I decided to be a little safe and not use the Ich Attack just yet.

I did a roughly 75% water change, and the new water has water conditioner and Epsom Salt. He's still really hungry, and I'm so proud of him for being brave and keeping up his appetite. It's too bright here to check on the Ich, but his Popeye is still pretty bad. I have a second batch of water prepared for an afternoon water change, but my main question is how much Epsom Salt do I put in it? I read it's not good to add more salt during water changes because you're not taking an even amount out and replacing it. That being said, he doesn't have an even amount of in there either since since there was still about 25% old water.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It can be quite difficult to treat multiple issues at once. In my opinion the best thing to do is treat the most pressing need first, then move on to the second. I don't like to mix all different kinds of treatments, though I'm sure there are some that you can, just like with meds that we take.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Understood. Hopefully the Ich will die out with the heat, and the Epsom will take care of his eyes.

Should it immediately stop the swelling? Also, how much should I add when I do my next water change? I don't want to add too much or too little.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I never use salt for anything. I'm sure someone who does can provide better help. 

How much you salt you need to add is dependent on how much water you change. If you have a 10 gallon and have 10 parts of salt (for an example) and change 50% of the water (5 gallons), then you would add 5 parts of salt with that water. However, when water evaporates salts are left behind so if the water level has dropped, then it becomes a little trickier. Say you lost 2 gallons and now have 8 gallons of water with 10 parts of salt....if you removed 4 gallons of water, you would also be removing 5 parts of salt, so you would refill with 6 gallons of water and 5 parts of salt. Say you lost 4 gallons to evaporation....then in doing a 50% water change, you would be removing 3 gallons of water - but still 5 parts of salt. So when refilling, you would add 7 gallons of water and....... 5 parts of salt. Follow?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I think I follow. 

So if very little evaporation has occurred, and I remove 3 gallons of water, I should treat 3 more gallons with the proper amount of salt and add that? 

Since you don't use salts, would you recommend I use Maracyn or something instead?


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

jaysee is correct with the salt dosages. You just add back what ever amount was removed with the water change. 
I would continue the epsom salt treatment for at least 2 more days. If there is no improvement or he goes downhill before the 2 days are up then switch to maracyn/maracyn II.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I find most of my bettas when they have had external parasites, develop a swollen eye. 

It seems to be caused by scratching due to the irritation of the parasites and generally heals up on its own once the fish has gotten over the infection and its immune system isn't being beleaguered.

Are you using medication as well as the high temperature? I know people recommend it but I have never had success with getting rid of ich permanently using only high temperatures. 

I don't know if I got a strain in my fish room that was much more resistant, but even after a couple of weeks of those temperatures (I go up to 88 degrees) the parasites will have retreated in numbers but will still be present on the fish if I look closely enough.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I haven't added any Ich Attack yet, as I wasn't sure whether I should put it in my tank after the water change or add it in the new water. As of right now, it's just Epsom salt and high temp. 

As for the Maracyn/Maracyn2, which should I be buying?


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

Maracyn treats gram positive bacteria, while maracyn II treats gram negative bacteria. There really isn't a great way of knowing which is causing the popeye, but maracyn and maracyn II can be dosed at the same time. This is what I would recommend doing if you decide to go the medicine route.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Okay, I'll try to buy those on Monday if I don't see any improvements. I'm gonna do a 50% water change in about half an hour, then check on his Ich when the sun goes down. 

I only started noticing the popeye after the Ich infection, so there's a chance it's just from scratching his eyes? I'm really hoping he doesn't have a serious infection or something.


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## 10asartin (Mar 28, 2013)

Yes, it is possible. Either way you will still want to get the swelling down.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

If it is a bad infection, it seems that the eye is more likely to get damaged as even if you don't see it, the fish will scratch against surfaces in the tank to try and dislodge the parasites. 

I find the eye swelling will go down on its own without need for treatment even if it looks really nasty. You just want to be careful a secondary infection doesn't get in there. I had that happen with one of my fish and the scales on her head were raised and it looked like she had been put through a mincer. 

I'm not sure, but can you safely mix maracyn medication with ich medication if that becomes needed?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Mixing meds always sounds bad. I haven't used the Ich Attack yet, but I think I'll wait until tonight to check on how he looks. I'm worried that they reproduced during those hours where the tank was at 84 degrees. Tomorrow I'm planning to do a 100% water change in the early afternoon, and if he has tons of Ich parasites, I think I'll put in the Ich attack with the Epsom Salts. I don't think those two should conflict. 

Though when I look up Ich Attack, everyone seems to say that it does nothing. So I'm worried about that.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Are you using medication as well as the high temperature? I know people recommend it but I have never had success with getting rid of ich permanently using only high temperatures.
> 
> I don't know if I got a strain in my fish room that was much more resistant, but even after a couple of weeks of those temperatures (I go up to 88 degrees) the parasites will have retreated in numbers but will still be present on the fish if I look closely enough.


Tons of people have great success treating ich with only heat, myself included. Problem is that people reintroduce it to their tanks through less than careful practices - not that that was the case for you. I've never had a reinfection since I began treating every single new fish for ich while in quarantine, and my fish spent 4 days in 58 degree water after hurricane sandy. Surely if the parasite were present in any of my tanks (had 4 more show tanks at the time), I would have seen spots on at least one fish. But there wasn't even a single fish. Too, I've read an experiment that someone did to test whether ich was ever present, like some people claim. The fish that were treated for ich were not reinfected no matter what was done to them. So the fact that my fish did not exhibit signs means that the parasite is not there. There's no better way to make spots show up than chilling.

ONE time, the standard 86 degrees did not work. I bumped it up to 89 and that did the trick. Yes, there are some heat resistant strains and because of that I now treat all new fish with 88-90 degree water.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I am very careful with my quarantine practices and handling of equipment because I did one time get some sort of parasite in with new fish and it was a nightmare. All of my tanks have their own siphon/bucket and I wash my hands thoroughly with hot water and soap after I touch a tank that may have infected fish in it. Those tank are also cleaned last so I don't spread anything around. 

I was treating one particular grow-out (juvenile and sub-adult fish so fairly robust) for over a month trying to get rid of the damn infection. I had the tank at 32 degrees celsius which is around 89 degrees (nearly 90) for weeks and that did not even touch it. In the end I culled that entire tank because if that was some super resistant strain of ich I didn't want it getting into any of my other tanks. Plus the fish were clearly suffering immensely at that point. 

This is why I am hesitant to say that a high temperature will kill it off 100% all the time. Just because ich is so common and resistant strains may be more likely to develop.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Aalistair,

Premix the Epsom salt. Fill a one gallon container with water that's the same temp as the tank. Add water conditioner. Add one teaspoon Epsom salt. Stir or shake until the Epsom salt is completely dissolved. Use this for your water changes. This will give you a consistent dosage.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Thank you, I've been doing it in batches of 3 gallons. 

I'm despairing though. It would appear the Ich have come back after the temperature dipped, and my Betta is really itchy. I've been crying all afternoon, and I just don't think I'm cut out to take care of any animal. I'm trying my best, but I'm out of money, and I everything I do just makes things worse.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

No no no. You're taking excellent care of him. Ich is a difficult parasite to cure because of their complicated life cycle.

My female betta has been battling ich for awhile, too. Her tank is at 87F. I'd thought the ich was gone, but it flared up again today. 

What happens is that you think it's gone. But there are some parasites are different stages, and most of the time, they're either embedded in the fish or within a protective cyst. This protects them from heat or treatments. So you kill the visible ones. And you think you're done.... And the the other ones emerge from the fish or their cysts, and you need to start over again.

Persistence.... it's going to take that from both of us! Just keep the heat up as best you can. If it dips, it just means that you may have to treat a few days longer - but that's not a really big deal.

As for the popeye, try the Epsom salt. It should help. Also, the ich probably won't like the Epsom salt, so it may cut down on their reproduction, too.

Hang in there. We'll exchange ich stories with you. And really, you ARE taking excellent care of him.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks, I'm just struggling really badly right now. It's tough.

Also, should I adjust his feeding schedule at all? He seems insanely hungry as of late, and I've never seen him go after food like this.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

What brand of food do you give him? And how much per day?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I've only been feeding him Omega Buffet Pellets since he's been sick.

And he looks worse today. He's lethargic now. Just resting at the top with his head poking up for air every once-in-a-while. Still itch, still hungry, but not active anymore.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Go ahead and feed him. Being hungry is actually a good sign. Good nutrition is important at helping their immune systems stay strong.

I tried to find out what's in Ich Attack, but I couldn't really find a list of ingredients. It just says, "_100% Organic Herbals Based On Naphthoquinones._" I hate to dismiss products, but if they don't tell me what's in it, it's difficult to know whether the product will really work.

Personally, I've picked up *AP Quick Cure*. I got it at Walmart for about $2.50. It contains formalin and malchite (Victoria) green, which are supposed to be effective at treating the Ich parasite (while it's in the vulnerable stages).*

Between the heat (86F) and Quick Cure, my fish is starting to look a little better. But it's a slow process.

----------------------
* Sources: 
Diagnosis and Treatment of “Ich” or White Spot Disease in Fish: 

Ich in Freshwater Fish: Causes, Treatment, and Prevention: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2421


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Well, I just did a 100% water change and added the Ich Attack and Epsom Salt. For now he seems to be exploring his new layout, and I gave him a single tiny pellet as a treat to help him calm down after two tank switches. 

The Ich Attack says it does not require water changes when adding a second dose during the twice daily medicating process. So in about 8 hours or so, should I just pour in another dose without changing any water?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, you can just add the next dose in 8 hours. You don't need to do a water change.

Exploring is good....

(Here's the source from the first article I cited in the message above. The URL got messed up: http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-459.pdf)


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Everywhere I read, people say that Ich Attack does nothing. I'm even more worried now.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I couldn't find a list of specific ingredients, so I don't know what's in it.

How is his eye doing?

I'm using heat and AP Quick Cure for my girl's ich. It cost about $2.50 at Walmart.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I don't see much in the way of improvement with his eye, but it's only been about 24 hours. The Ich is still bothering him, and when he's not laying by the surface of his feeding area, he's scratching on plants, ornaments, or the bottom of the tank. 

I think his other eye is hurting too, as I can see it clearly when he looks straight up. I have the temp up at 86 right now, so I hope the Ich is falling off of him, but he doesn't seem to be improving at all.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

One more thing...it's not quite nighttime, but I closed my blinds and lights, then put on the light for his tank and...I didn't see any Ich on him. It's not pure dark in here, but I really didn't see any. I haven't checked since early this morning. I don't know if I just can't see them, or maybe he was being really bothered by them coming off of his body.

Should I do a 100% water change in the chance that they're free-floating right now, or dose some Ich Attack in and hour and change it tomorrow?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Do whatever water change plan is best/easiest for you.

If you want to eliminate the more quickly, then the water change will physically remove them from the water. This means there will be fewer in there to cause problems.

The theory behind raising the temperature is that ich can't reproduce at high temps. So even if they fall off him, they'll just swim around awhile - but they won't be able to multiply. Eventually, since they can't mulitply, they end up dying off. But doing water changes will help speed up the process since you'll have taken some of them out of the tank.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright, it might be better if I wait until tomorrow since I already did a 100% today. Less stress on both of us. His eyes aren't doing well, but I only noticed 2 or 3 little parasites when I did a second check not too long ago. 

He doesn't seem to be scratching too much either. Mostly doing a lap around his tank, then hiding under his bridge in the middle for a while. I hope that's a good sign. And he is starving like crazy. He goes wild whenever I enter the room.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

If you did a 100% water change today, you don't need to do another one tonight. 

It sounds like he's doing better. Being active and hungry is usually a good sign.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Before I learned of the heat treatment, I used quick cure with great success. I used it at normal tank temperature.


Regarding water changes during the heat treatment - in my experience it is unnecessary. I have not found the treatment to be any less than completely effective not changing the water.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Jaysee - Interesting. Thanks! Makes sense - if the water temp is too high for them to reproduce, then water changes won't make a difference.... 

Aalistair - Sounds like you can take some time off from hauling buckets of water!


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Jaysee - Interesting. Thanks! Makes sense - if the water temp is too high for them to reproduce, then water changes won't make a difference....


I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't nnn


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

*Jaysee* - I am at the point where I would be happy to stick my fingers into the tank and squash the little parasites to death. If only I could see them..... 

(Of course, I'm less enthusiastic now that the Quick Cure is in there. I've seen what the malachite green has done to the silicone. And I'm not particularly fond of formalin either.)

*Aalistair* - I'll leave the water change schedule up to you. It's more important that the temp stays up. I'm also finding that the AP Quick Cure is helping my fish.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I was really hoping to have excellent news when I logged on today. 

When I woke up at around 6:00am this morning, I checked my Betta and he was Ich-free. I fed him and went to class. Right when I got back, I did an instant water change, and when it was all finished, I looked at him under the lights and he has quite a big of Ich back on him. I was really hoping he could go 24 hours without any issues. I don't know if that's new Ich that resulted from the water change, or if it was Ich that was previously unseen, but it scares me. He's still hungry, and still keeps his fins spread out. I would like to stop with the water changes, but the tank is not cycled, so the ammonia levels aren't steady at all. I feel like things just won't get better.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Darn it, I was hoping we could go 24 hours without any problems, but there's a ton on him. Maybe the water change stressed him out too much or something. 

I don't know. Maybe I'll slow the water changes down and see what happens. Ugh, I suppose this is what I get for thinking positive.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Not having the tank cycled makes things much more difficult. If I had a tank that was infected and not cycled, I would use quick cure. In my experience it works the fastest.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

Try 88* someone said that its really make the difference from 86*. No light since ich reproduce with light and daily water changes. Wash and dry out everything you are using for him (a net, changing cup etc...)


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think you are thinking of velvet. That can use photosynthesis. 

However, I believe a lot of the ich/velvet medications are light sensitive anyway so it is best to keep the tank dark.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes you right velvet and ich are external parasites and both using photosynyhesis.
Forget to say why you need to wash and completely dry everything after each uses - it will kill any parasites that left on it.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I'm pretty sure ich does not use photosynthesis. Can you provide a source saying that it is?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

It's been about 3 hours since the water change, I turned the heat to about 88-89, and can no longer see a single parasite on him.

I'm not sure what to do. Tomorrow I'm going to try to get some medicine, but I'm not sure if I should grab something for his eyes or for the Ich. Any advice?


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

jaysee said:


> I'm pretty sure ich does not use photosynthesis. Can you provide a source saying that it is?


My source is reading too many thread on the forum. But i do have a very good links about ich. I will try to find them tomorrow and post them for you, may be you can find an answer there. But i am pretty sure it is.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

Aalistair said:


> It's been about 3 hours since the water change, I turned the heat to about 88-89, and can no longer see a single parasite on him.
> 
> I'm not sure what to do. Tomorrow I'm going to try to get some medicine, but I'm not sure if I should grab something for his eyes or for the Ich. Any advice?


I would continue with heat 88* and daily water changes , it work for you but no damage for fish. Sorry i didn't read all post , i don't even know how big is the tank. But you can lower the water in the tank or even have him in the hospital tank so it will be easier for you to change the water. If you can't keep the temperature in the hospital tank you can keep the container (see through) floating in his tank. 
Or if your tank too big for daily water changes you can alternate daily water changes (50% and 100%). 
Keep him in dark , rinse and dry after each use all equipment you are using to change him until next use.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

BETTACHKALOVE said:


> My source is reading too many thread on the forum. But i do have a very good links about ich. I will try to find them tomorrow and post them for you, may be you can find an answer there. But i am pretty sure it is.


Ive read all about their life cycle and never has photosynthesis ever been mentioned. Ich is no mystery - its the easiest ailment to treat in the hobby. of course, everything is easy when you know how to do it. I've spent a lot of time on forums and you saying that is the very first time I've ever heard that claim from anyone on any forum. I read a lot of claims people make that are just patently wrong, and people will post links to other threads where someone makes the same claim as if that's proof (such as "you cant cycle small tanks" and most recently "fighting bettas is illegal in USA"), so you'll have to excuse my skepticism when I ask for legitimate sources - not someone saying something on some forum somewhere.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Give this a read

http://www.fishchannel.com/media/fish-health/freshwater-conditions/velvet-disease.aspx.pdf


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

Sorry i can't argue because i am not an expert, i don't have time to research right now as i have some problem on my own, and i said it because some people said it on this forum, but i just always like to be safe than sorry. There is not damage to keep light off if the tank has the light in it. So if you are sure that you are right then i will not argue. 

I just really wary more right now about to get rid of ich . And i think he is in his temporary 3 gall tank. So if he show improvement yesterday after you increase the water to 88* i would continue to do that with daily water changes.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I am pretty confident that Dr. Monk is right.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright, no Ich this morning, but I usually notice it coming back in the early afternoon, so I'm holding my breath. On a positive note, he was making some bubbles this morning in one corner, so I hope he's somewhat happy. General update is mostly the same. He's hungry, and freaks out whenever he sees me, swimming up and down and all around wildly. Fins aren't clamped, but he isn't too active either. 

Neither of his eyes are looking too good, so I'm going to try to grab some Maracyn 2 after classes this afternoon. Also, there's a tiny hole near the end of his tail fin, so I'm hoping the Marycin 2 will help heal it. Finally, is it normal for the Ich to resurface on his body during the treatment or is that a sign that treatment isn't working? I'm really scared to check his body today...


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh, and thanks for the advice, BETTACHKALOVE. My little guy is in a 6.5 gallon, by the way. I have a new Tom mini filter that I installed the day I saw the Ich, and he has a pretty nice adjustable heater in there. I only use the 3 gallon as a place for him to try and relax during 100% water changes.

When I get home, if there's no Ich on him, I think I'm going to start doing 3-5 one gallon (around 15%) changes throughout the day. Every time I do a 50% or more water change, the Ich seem to come right back and latch onto him. Hopefully this helps clear the water of ammonia/nitrite/free-floating Ich without stressing him out. I don't know how potent or useful Ich Attack is, but should I stop using it once I start adding the Maracyn?


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

I would not mixed those drugs together . I am not experienced with treating ich in the filtered tank. I don't believe that the ich come back because of 50% water changes though. I am afraid that ich can be in the filter / cartridge though. So make sure you rinse the fitter. I know it will take time for ich to attached again to the fish body though so it will probobly die before that.

I am experienced with treating fish with ich in the hospital tank with 88*,daily water changes 100% ,or you can alternate 50% and 100% . So if i would be you i would just put him back in 3 gall tank and keep temp 88* and do daily water changes . Dry all equipment after each use to kill parasites. I think its less stressful for fish then medicate him with so many medications. Unless you have water issues. And i would do it up to 14 days.

If you still keep him in the 6.5 gall with the filter , you need to do as more water changes as you can, to remove free floating ich, rinse the filter daily. I would not use Maracyn 2 yet since its not even the main problem right now ,and clean water will help. You really need to take care of ich right now . The medications will stress him out more than full water changes. 
And again i do not think that he has ich reoccurred because of 50% water changes there is should be another reason for that. Usually people treating them in the main tank or in the hospital tanks with daily full or 50% water changes.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Okay, I think I understand. I'll grab the Maracyn 2 today and hold off on it. I'm just worried since both of his eyes seem to be affected and have been since last Friday/Saturday. I have Epsom salts in there, but they don't seem to be causing the swelling to go down, so I worry that it's bacterial. 

Also, about drying the objects, how long to I let them dry for? Do I rinse them under warm water and just let them sit until they're totally dry before putting them back in there?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

One more question. There's currently no gravel in my tank (just marbles at the bottom), so should I get a gravel vacuum or something to clean up his poop, or is there something else I need to do? 

The tank is small, so I'm worried about buying and trying to use a vacuum.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Aalistair,

Sorry. I wasn't online yesterday due to work. Reading back on the thread, and it looks like:

*POPEYE:* 

It sounds like both of his eyes are still affected, despite the Epsom salt. *I would move to antibiotics now.*

Do you have *Maracyn 2* already? If so, I would start using it. 

If it isn't effective after 2 days, I would add *Maracyn (erithromycin)*.

What dosage of Epsom salt are you using now?

*ICH:*

Yes, it's completely normal for it to look like it's gone -- and then flare up again.

This is because you have parasites at different stages in the tank. This is also why you need to keep treating for several more days after the white spots are gone, so that you kill off all the parasites - including the ones you don't see yet.

I would *stop using the Ich Attack now*. You're going to start adding antibiotics for the eye, so limit the medications to those that are most important.

Overall, how is he doing now?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm glad you're back, LBF. Wish I saw this earlier, I grabbed Quick Cure today since the Petsmart here doesn't have it and is on the complete other side of town. Screwed up again...

Regardless, I just got home, held my breath, and checked his tank. It's been about 24 hours, 88 degrees, and still no Ich. MAYBEEE one on his belly. Maybe. He's still got a rabid appetite and can swim at sonic speeds when he sees me approaching. His eyes look worse though. I don't know when I'll be able to pick up any Maracyn 2 though. Gonna look into it. It's also been 24 since my last water change. What should I do? 25% or multiple 15%'s throughout the day?


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh, as for the salts, I'm using 1 tsp/gal. 

I read that some people add a double dose if both eyes are afflicted, but I wanted to make sure that was okay before doing it.

I'm still not too sure what kind of behavior patterns I should be looking for. It's hard to say too because I have to hide before entering my room so I can see what he's doing before I arrive. When I'm here though, he usually floats around by the feeding hole, pacing around looking for food. Apart from that, he seems to spend most of his time hiding in or behind this big purple silk plant I got him recently. I figured it would be a nice place for him to try and blend in.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hold onto the Quick Cure..... Store it in a dark location. (The active ingredients break down when exposed to light.) If the heat alone isn't working, or is taking a long time, you can add the Quick Cure.

His behavior sounds OK. Looking for food is definitely "normal" behavior! 

Do whichever water change is easiest for you, and least stressful for him. Is he still in the 6.5 gal tank? If so, you don't need to do water changes every day.

Do you have any medications on hand? If so, what? (Once I know this, I'll give you my opinion about the Epsom salt dosage. If you have something, you might be able to use it. If you don't.... well, I kind of hate increasing the Epsom salt dosage above 1 tsp/gal, but I don't like that his eyes are worse.)


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Quick cure is a good med to have on hand. I've had great success with it, and while the proverbial "meds are stressful" is true, so is salt, heat and being infested with parasites. It's ALL stressful. In my experience with quick cure, it's no more stressful than any other treatment, including the natural ones. Now I am not categorically advocating the use of meds over other treatments - but one need not fear the use of meds. A lot of people make it out like the fish are barely able to withstand the medications and that's just not an accurate portrayal of the "risks". I am far more concerned about quick cure staining decorations than I am about it adversely affecting the fish.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

On hand I have Ich Attack, Quick Cure, Epsom Salt, Aquarium Salt, and Melafix. 

As if things weren't bad enough, I think my poor little guy is bloated/constipated. His belly is ,ind of big again, and the skin/scales under it are very light red, almost white. On top of that, he's laying down with his fins clamped now. He's still hungry, and he still moves around when he sees me, but once he loses interest, he clamps his fins and finds a place to rest on his belly. 

Also, with the last of my money, I ordered the Maracyn 2, and it should be here tomorrow. If he has some of those bacterial infections, hopefully this will do the trick.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I find ich really runs fish down, particularly if it is a bad infection. It is not surprising to read that he is looking really bad.

Try not to get too down. Ages ago when I had velvet go through nearly every tank in my fish room, my fish still looked like crap for a couple weeks after the parasite had completely cleared up.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh.... if I had known you were going to order something online, I'd have suggested Kanaplex instead of Maracyn 2. Kanaplex will treat a wider range of organisms than Maracyn 2.... 

Can you cancel the Maracyn 2 order, and get Kanplex instead?

As for the ich:

+1 on Jaysee's comments. I'm having good success with the Quick Cure. If you want to use it, let me know. (I'll try to determine whether the ingredients in it will interfere with whatever antibiotic you end up getting.)

+1 on LBF's comments. Parasites are difficult to get rid of. It's going to take some time for him to start looking good again.

Can you get a photo of him? I'd like to see what he looks like now....


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm sorry for the long delay and bad quality. It's hard to get good pictures at night, and he moves around like crazy when I get close to the tank and refuses to pose. I think you can see his eye and belly in one of these.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)




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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)




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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright, I might as well post an update. Over 48 hours and not a single Ich in sight. I think he's still constipated though. His stomach is bulging a bit, and it's really light red and pink under there. He doesn't seem to have buoyancy issues or anything though, and he swims straight. When he's not looking for food though, he rests on objects with his fins kind of clamped.

The Maracyn 2 has not arrived yet, and I'm really worried about his popeye. Both his eyes are pretty bad now, and I've seen him run into the glass a couple of times, so I'm guessing it's negatively affecting his eyesight. He can still follow my figure and finger, so that's good. I just hope this medicine does the trick when it gets here before it's too late...


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Doesn't look like anyone's here anymore, but I'll still post an update. 

Three days and no sign of any Ich. The temp has been roughly 88 since Mon/Tues. 

For his popeye, the Maracyn 2 instructions said two packets per 10 gallons, but since he's in a 6.5, I just added one packet yesterday evening. Today, (13 hours later) I added another half a packet, then did a 25% water change this afternoon (6 hours later, I also did not add any Epsom since it doesn't seem to be doing squat). Both his eyes are pretty bad, but one is definitely worse than the other. Gonna try to grab some Maracyn 1 tomorrow to add to his treatment. 

Next, as for his constipation, I fasted him for a day and fed him a piece of a pea this morning. I haven't noticed any difference in belly size, but I believe I saw a small piece of brown stringy poop when I did the water change. It was getting sucked up into the filter. I don't know whether too feed him dinner or not. Though he doesn't seem to have buoyancy issues, he does spend a lot more time swimming with his belly close to or touching the floor. I'm pretty sure he's still feeling weighted down since he seems to swim for a short distance, then stop and rest for about 20 second before going again. 

On a positive note, his fins don't appear to be clamped (at least not when I'm around), and he still has an appetite. Fortunately, his eyes don't appear to be cloudy, just really pushed out. I hope that's a good thing. Finally, I removed some of his toys and I'm letting them dry out to hopefully kill any remaining Ich, and I replaced them with some of his old toys I removed last Friday and have been drying ever since. Is there a certain time when I can put them back in?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Ich can't survive longer than about 3 days without a host. So if they've been out of the tank for 3+ days, you should be fine. (Not to mention that drying things out will kill organisms faster. So you'll be doubly fine.)

I don't recall if I suggested mosquito larvae before. This is a betta's natural diet. If you can find some, this would be a great food for him and should help with any constipation. I usually suck them up with a turkey baster, then squirt a little tank water in to rinse them, then use the baster to drop a couple into the tank.

If you can't get mosquito larvae, you can try frozen daphnia. Feed this right before a water change though, since it can get a little messy.

If he's having trouble swimming, you can lower the water level a little.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm glad you're here. I don't have access to any of those things though. 

I'm happy he's not just sitting in one spot, but he just moves from one spot to lay down in to another. I don't know what that means. His tummy is still very light pink-ish, which I believe coupled with his lack of activity, means he's still quite constipated. Should I feed him a pellet or a pea tonight since that's all I have other than shrimp and bloodworms? Also, checked my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels and they're really low. Ammonia's at 0, Nitrite is .25, and Nitrate is between 5 and 10ppm. I was worried cause I saw him yawn twice, so I checked the parameters.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I don't think occasional yawning is an issue. 

I wouldn't give him a pea.... Try a pellet. He needs good nutrition to keep his immune system strong. Protein is good nutrition for them.

If the pellet seems too large for him, use a fingernail to break one apart.

Your water parameters look excellent.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright, I gave him the smallest pellet I could find.

The temperature is still 88 but...I swear it looks like there's two or three little glinting white spots on his body. I don't want to believe it, but...could there still be Ich in there? I feel devastated, I thought treatment would end soon...


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, some of the parasites are probably still embedded in him. They're now getting ready to emerge, which is what's causing the white spots..... This is why you need to continue the 88F temperature for 3 days after you stop seeing the white spots. It's because some of the parasites are still emerging....

BUT this isn't a sign that his condition is getting worse. It's the usual course of ich.... It starts to look better. A few white spots show up. You keep treating..... And eventually, all of the parasites die..... You keep treating for 3 more days just to be sure, anyway..... At some point, you'll have killed them all. (_Die evil little parasites, die!_)

So he ate the pellet? This is good. I would feed him small, frequent meals like this throughout the day. It will help his immune system stay strong.


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

I pray you're right. I thought this would be simple (taking care of a Betta), but it's so stressful. I just want him to be happy and healthy. 

But yeah, his appetite has never left. Which makes me happy. I think I would start pulling chunks of my hair out if he was this sick AND wasn't eating. He ate the food up and he's looking for more at the top. I'm kind of worried about feeding him snacks because it was only after I divided his meals in to three (1 pellet in the morn, 1 in the afternoon after a water change, and 1 or 2 at night before bed) that he got constipated again. Should I start pre-soaking them or something?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

What brand are you feeding him? (I think I asked this already, but I don't want to sort through 10 pages of posts. LOL)


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## Aalistair (Aug 17, 2013)

It's okay, I feel the same way.

I'm only feeding him Omega pellets right now since they have the most protein.


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