# Betta genetics



## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Ok so I was wondering if someone could explain the betta genetics for me.. I've read a few articles and my brain just about exploded! I have 2 halfmoon males one is a mustard gas, one is completely white. Then I also have a red with blue shimmer VT and a black and blue dragon scale male (thats what he was called when i got him) 

At the moment I have 4 VT females but am looking for other females as well.. wondering if maybe I should be looking for a specific type. I read a few times that it isnt always best to have the same type for male and female. Is that true as well?


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Going to need to give us some specific questions. There's a lot to explain about genetics 

As for what types you should breed that is up to you. Breeding VT is controversial because they're so widely available.. which makes them less in demand. However, I know personally I would rather get a VT who is home-bred and well cared for than one from a fish store so you can use that to your advantage.

More popular types (PK, Halfmoon, DT, CT-to some extent) are easier to place and thus probably a better option to breed. IMO you should always start off with the best possible stock which means you need to know what to look for in your fish and have a goal in mind for what you want the outcome to be.

Generally speaking it is always better to breed the same tail type because you know what the out come will be (at least tail type-wise). Mixing different tail types can be tricky and you might not always come out with nice looking fins.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

o.o good question... someone asked if my Spartan was a dalmation (heh?).... I dunno!! lol. All I know is I think he is a halfmoon cross... lol. -definitely suscribed-

"may not get nice looking fins" o.o;; I crossed a crowntail and a half moon cross... what will I get?? lol


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

There are chances you will get Halfsuns from that. If I am correct, I may be wrong though.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

halfsuns... -looks them up-...... pretty, actually. Yeah they are both just pet store bettas... he knows the breeder they both came from, and he breeds for the colors and long fins. Still may have a whatsitcalled and a whattheheckisthat in there somewhere but meh


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Most of the time you get messy fins when you breed anything with CT. Its more rare to get a halfway decent looking fish than it is to end up with tattered looking fins.

Breeding successive generations one way or the other will usually clean up the fins. But F1s generally are very messy.

Here's an example from AB I saved. This is not my picture. This fish is nice in the fact that he's got a good spread and decent symmetry. Its just too bad he looks shredded.


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Ok so for my dragon scale.. I would need to find a female that is one as well? Or would it be safe to have him be paired up with one of my Vt girls?

I love his coloring.. but I heard the VT's are the ones that appear the most.. so would that include the color as well?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

you know, I do like that shredded look on that particular betta... though I am guessing he only looks pretty when his fins are erect, hey? All well. I'll see what happens 

I think it would be whichever thing is the dominant color or fin  veiltail is probably more dominant... a certain color may be more dominant... But depending on the batch, you could get everything, or one thing, or a couple things.


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Hmm.. ok so it's more like playing around then?  This will be interesting... lol


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, what happened was that I had my new fish in temporary heated bowls (2-3 gallons each), with Spartan in the tank. The female was interested in Dusk, and she followed him (sort of like going... "now... what exactly do you do?") but Dusk is the one who'd tear anything and everything fin from fin, wing from wing.... whatever he can, he will 

However once she saw Spartan, she was intent on watching him, and he completely wanted her xDD you can tell lol. And in 24 hours she had her vertical lines, plumped, wiggled, and he had made a huge nest, showed off, and wiggled o.o;;

They chose each other. I didn't pair them  should have seen him with her. He didn't get rough with her too much (like often mentioned of breeder's tries) he liked to brush against her, and flaunt for her XDD took them four days, but they did it  now he is keeping the eggs fungus free, I guess lol

I definitely want to know what my male is....


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Ritingyou said:


> Ok so for my dragon scale.. I would need to find a female that is one as well? Or would it be safe to have him be paired up with one of my Vt girls?
> 
> I love his coloring.. but I heard the VT's are the ones that appear the most.. so would that include the color as well?


Dragons need a dragon male and a dragon female to get the full effect.

VT is dominant over all other tail types so if you cross anything with VT you will get primarily vt, however you may get a small number of deltas.

Color genetics are very hard to get. Basically if you want a certain color your BEST bet is to get a sibling pair with the colors you want, because unless you know the genetic background of the fish your going to breed you have no way to know what you'll get out of your spawn.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

hehe I bred a ebony black female with mettalic blue specks, with my orange/peach/pink/purple/dark blue/black male >< I do not think I could think of the colors I'll end up with ><


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

So for dragons I have 3 males that are dragon scale, they will produce me partial dragons and fry with the dragon geno so if I spawned a sibling pair I should come out with full dragons right?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I think that's what 1fish is saying o.o you could get dragons, but chances are the veiltail would come out most


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for anyone that is selling a dragon female.. also halfmoon felame.. 

Sena take pics so i can see please! IM curious as to how they turned out


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Check out the classifieds section. I think there was someone selling dragon plakats and I know there was someone selling HM or PK fry as well.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I currently have 1 dragon plaket 1 dragon Hm 1 dragon delta all males. I am going to breed the DPK to a reg PK fem they are seriously in love. The moment they saw each other in their QTs it was flirting flaring dancing galore haha


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

pics on other computer.... but the link to my photos:

this is my male Spartan. his backfin is shortened in the spot (sooo visible) because an african dwarf frog decided he didn't wanna be his buddy anymore ;(
http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=2640&pictureid=17904
http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=2603&pictureid=17884
http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=2640&pictureid=17897
http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=2640&pictureid=17908

haha Amph I know right?? Madame and Spartan chose each other xD i did not choose the pair... it just... happened lol

if anyone knows what the hey he is it would be lovely lol


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Oh wow he's so pretty! You dont see kinds like him at my lfs.. But not sure what he is either

1fish - I've been keeping my eyes on that section for a week now.. the only ones that were, either I couldnt afford or shipping cost to much :\ although I am waiting to hear back from one person about thoes marble juvies.......


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

really??? He was ugly as a youngster xDDD then he got his purty colors (some still think he is ugly well meh their lost)


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Well I think he's pretty  in fact I wouldnt mind haveing a couple of his fry if it looks like him


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

haha Riting  well I have people lined up for fry o.o I have no idea why... they are just basic bettas who I happened to breed Maybe it is because they know they can see how they are cared for? And see the food I use. And see how I clean... idk lol


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Haha my boy thoth DTHM and his cambo HM are the same way she only has eyes for him and he shows off constantly.

While Poppycock is such a flirt with any female near him XD. I hope he and the CT girl get on well I want pure CT fry from them.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Amph, where do you live? lol I would totally love one of your fry xDD

Except I understand shipping cost is sometimes painful


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

I want to see what colors you get  So many pretty possible colors...... That reminds me i also need to find a halfmoon for casper... my white male HM lol ahhh to many to add to the list!!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I am in Oregon so I am not sure what the shipping cost would be, probably about 15.

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=78773 - Poppycock
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=78315 - Thoth\
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=806217#post806217 - thoth again
Thoths Cambo Girl - Motoko - http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=811652&highlight=Thoth#post811652


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

very pretty. I'm all the way in Alberta Canada :/


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah I don't know how much it would be but I see a lot of the people on Aquabid for like 16 shipping. I don't know for sure though we will see ^_^. I will trade you fry XD


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Wow beautiful bettas! I'd buy a couple from you if the shipping isnt so bad  shipping seems to be my only problem when getting bettas these days./ because I cant afford the 30 dollar shipping


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

deal xD I definitely must say... for a first time daddy Spartan is amazing o.o plus he is deemed "old" for breeding lol and he is the best one I have O_O

Personally, if anyone can find me a GREEN female betta, preferably 1.5 inches or bigger I WOULD PAY 30$ FOR SHIPPING lol


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

I would too if I could, but with my 60 gallon, 2 ten gallons, and all my mini tanks..... I dont make enough money to be able to afford a 30 dollar shipment :\ 
This is my new guy Drake. I am just now realizeing that instead of being green and black he is actually a really dark red and blue.... but he has a lining of black on the tips of his fins. Still in love with him though


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

He is SO pretty!! ^^ and yeah I know, tanks are costly haha!! I am thinking of re-homing my mollies so I have the 20 gallon free.. winter is going to be bad and all my lil' buddies who (most of the heaters made my room a sauna) don't need a heater right this moment, will need one soon!!


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm going through the same issues with the heaters! Earlier this year I actually had to take them out because my tank was getting over heated (lights were to hot) but my cat decided the rubber parts were fun to chew on.... Now I have to replace them all before winter comes! That right there will be my 30 dollar shipment lol


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

haha I know right??? I rescued one too many bettas so I am in a tight squeeze of room. My healthier, less prone bettas can stay in the "goldfish bowl" which is about 2-3 gallons I guess... with a heater of course. Everyone gets clean bowls/tanks anyways  I never had a problem since my first betta (about 8 years old before dying from medicine...) as long as I keep everything clean >< lol.

I would however, like to know about genetics... like you. o.o yes I have had and have bettas... but... never knew much of genetics hahaha


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

To a lot of people the genetics isnt really that important.. and honestly it's not a big deal to me but I have always been curious as to how it works. 

But it might just be one of thoes "learn as you expirence it" situations. Learn what youd get by breeding and seeing what you got.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

haha yup that is me right there xD it's a "hey, my bettas like each other... let's see what happens"


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

All about expirementing XD 

I'm actually trying this moment to spawn my VT male and VT female. But my male doesnt seem to be interested in making a nest... just showing off. Now if he was showing off to a guy he'd build nests like crazy! 

Now I'm also finding out that my HM male has found an interest in my very big VT female.... and she has actually gotten really shy when it came to him! I might just give them a try in a couple days.. would be interesting to see. But that is only if my VT's dont work out together.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hmm... when he sees a male he makes a nest? let him be in sight of the female, and a male. A male spurs his instincts, a female completes them


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

You know... I jut might do that. And I just happen to have Drake in a vace at the moment. lol I guess it couldnt hurt to try for a couple hours.. I could always take him back out in the morning if things dont work out that way either.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's true. Hey I have my bettas in bowls (two at the moment) but their water is warm enough and always clean... I wont diss bowls  just diss icky stuff to clean with  some people I know use bleach...


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

I couldnt use bleach.. I'm to scared I wont get it all out and it will end up killing them  But my room keeps them pretty warm. So I will either do 50% water changes (because my bettas seem to be very messy) every day or completely clean them every other day. 

I just put him in. They flared at eachother but as soon as my VT noticed that he couldnt get to drake he didnt care and just kept swimming. I'm leaving the light on tonight so they can interact more.. We'll see what happens in the morning. If nothing happens then I guess I will be finding out what happens when a HM and VT spawns lol


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@Ritingyou: what exactly do you want to know about genetics? As 1f2f said there's to much to explain everything. Further there's always the unexpected (mainly due to unknown background).

Mixing tail types; I wouldn't suggest mixing CT to anything to beginners because they would need to know which to select for the following breeding. And IMO it's safer/more affective if F1 were 6 months so their actual fins are known.

Mixing HM/PK to VT is easier. But you need a goal because you might not get what you want right away - it will take you many generations to finally get what you're after.
Eg: Mixing HM to PK - to improve HM's fin thickness 
Mixing HM to VT - to add length of fins (3/4 - equal body length)
Mixing PK to VT - NOT ADVISED because gives little to no advantage
These are just a few examples.

If you can't get a drg female, you could pair your male to a metallic female. The chances of getting geno's with stronger drg traits is bigger. But this too will take at least 2 generations.

The VT is dominant for form, not color. Color genetics is very complicated because many factors (genetic) take part - bettas have been cross bred too much thus there's more genetic codes behind what is visible. (ask something specific)

This fact will make color breeding seem like "playing" around - experimenting - learning as you experience. Nevertheless you still need to know the basics.

Hope that gave you a general idea.


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## MarinePsycho (Aug 16, 2011)

A great ste that I recommend for Genetics is BETTAS by Jim Sonnier/genetics, its a pretty awesome site.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

"Mixing HM to VT" o.o Maybe my Dusk and his sibling was that mix lol!! I bought him, not his sibling however. His sibling had extremely long fins, as does he.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

HMXVT that will be mostly VT some HM and a few crosses I think @[email protected]

I may be finding out what happens when a PK and VT cross or a Delta and VT cross. OR my girls may be the PK I thought she was and No idea on the other -_-


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Haha well  be very interesting to see hey?? I guess with all the crosses my store bettas probably have, who knows what I could get o.o;;


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah no kidding @[email protected] its a 1/4 this 1/4 this 1/4/ this and 1/4 that XD


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know xD i may get VT, HM, PK, CT.... everything  or just one thing, or two, or who knows??? lol. All I do know is I will definitely be interested to see what happens


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Though VT is heavily Dominate followed by CT as a trait I think. I am still learning it all myself XD


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

hmmmm lol. well, if it is not confusing then what is it? xDD


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Exactly if genetics were not confusing everyone would be a genius XD


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

When you cross HM to anything, even to another HM, you will get mostly super deltas and deltas, with a few HM.

If you cross HM to VT you'll likely have all VT with a few deltas.


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## roadplug (Sep 1, 2011)

is there a thread, or site where breeders have posted pics, like: This fish and this fish, made this fish? I think that would be really interesting. I've read a lot of 'what might happen, or what will happen from experience, but few pics of the adult babies on the same page as their parents. have i just not come across those threads and pictures yet? XD


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks Indjo that helped a lot  

So what would happen if I had my PK with a Delta marble? I am hoping to get one or two soon.. I dont really have a goal as to what im trying to get yet.. I'm still working on just haveing a successful spawn for right now. But I dont want to have 2 breed and end up no one wanting the fry because something went wrong.. 

Or if not, since I was also hoping to get a male is it bad to pair up a marble female and male if they were from the same parents (same spawn)

Also is it possible to make it into small spawning projects? 

roadplug if they dont have a thread like that we should make one! It would help us and others out in the long run!


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

You can Inbred bettas for several generations to cement a trait before you have to bring in new lines.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@cajunamy: HM x HM = delta is why I often advise getting really good quality females. A rounded caudal HM female WILL NOT produce many good HM - though she has an 8 ray end. A good HM female paired to a SdT male will produce some good HM - IMO females are more dominant for form.

@ritingyou: I am assuming the dT is long finned so you would probably get more dT, round T, PK, and some mixes between long and short fins. And color wise, I'm not sure coz I don't know the color of both male and female.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

indjo seems to know more  love the answer. Oh yeah I found out the mettalic blue of my female, in a different light is GREEN. So... green and blue on hre ebony body o.o


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

If someone could help with my genetics 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=78310 this is my latest spawn the male was sold as a delta but as he has grown I noticed he can flare to HM, also the picture is a bad angle for the female and her fins arent ragged like that anymore.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Creat said:


> If someone could help with my genetics
> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=78310 this is my latest spawn the male was sold as a delta but as he has grown I noticed he can flare to HM, also the picture is a bad angle for the female and her fins arent ragged like that anymore.


What exactly do you want to know?

Often fin spread develops when they flare/exercise. Males who never flares will usually lose that wide spread and become rather clamped. Even offspring of superb parents will not fully develop if they don't exercise. In short it's normal for SdT to develop into HM.

Your female isn't flaring so I can't really see her fins/caudal. But from the picture she looks like - what I call - a rounded tail. It doesn't open 180* and the edges aren't pointed. Usually from such females you won't get many true HM. But through selective inbreeding you can produce them. Look for the ones with the widest spread or if you can see, look for the ones with more than 4 end rays - preferably 8 end rays.

Hope that was what you were asking.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I was curious of the outcome yes regarding the number of HM fry also the female does flare to 180* like I said its a really bad image of her, I didnt want to steal the thread though


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Creat ask away. This thread is for genetics after all so I am sure others like my self will find it interesting and informative to see what happens.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Is that female one of mine? If so you should get a lot of HM from that spawn. The line she comes from has a very high percentage of HM, as long as you take the time to flare the males and get their fins stretched. In any case you'll have good branching.

If it is my female she's very close to 180* but does have rounded caudal edges instead of straight ones, something to be improved upon.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

1fish2fish it is your female, a very gorgeous girl, and her edges have straightened out slightly especially on the top although the bottom is still slightly rounded. The one thing I did notice about her though is her head and gills on the right side are deformed slightly and the male that came with her couldn't flare on that side... its something I have been looking out for in the fry...


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Huh..something must have happened to her. I know she has a narrower head than some but not really a deformity. She never had any issues with her gills though :-/

And the male had an uneven beard but he definitely was able to flare fully... I wonder if they got banged around in shipping :?

Here's a better picture of her before she went through spawning. Her topline does need work.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

She might have gotten really banged around then... Yeah cause he could only flare half of his beard (I lost him recently along with 7 other males from a crazy disease), she also is going blind in one eye ... I hope it isnt anything I did 
Here is a photo of her right now in my sorority please excuse the fins they are still growing back after breeding (speaking of which she bred beautifully for me )... you can see the lump of where the opposite gill covering is hanging down


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Sorry for the double post...
but is blindness genetic or environmental?


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Yeah that definitely wasn't there when she left me. Poor girl.. wonder what happened.

Blindness can be genetic (in which case it would be apparent from a young age) or caused by environmental factors (in which case it could come about later in life). I don't remember her having eye issues but the time I had her she was in a solo tank and not a sorority so perhaps I just didn't notice because she could find food without competition.

She's an excellent breeder  glad she spawned as easily for you as she did for me.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Very pretty female  yeah it's genetic - like my friend's male or environmental. There is one common environmental which is bad quality water, causing cloudy eyes (blindness) but usually a good water change works for them  then the other environmental is objects - something attacked her, she slammed into something... And then there is disease, which can be from a few things. For genetics, yes you can see it when they are young.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah I just dont want her to A) pass this on to fry B) become unable to breed and C) live a bad quality of life. Mostly quality of life, she showed up kinda looking like that and its gotten worse over time and the male was floating upside down when I got him very much on the brink DX I forgot to tell you that cause he recuperated quickly


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Haha wow... My male showed signs of distress in one tank (plastic thing I hate... Cycled it kills anyways!) so he is in a breeders net in the twenty... Haha I have Madame in the twenty gallon and she purposely puts hereford comfortably between the wall and the net -.- weird how they get alot so well :/


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@Creat: you should get some HM with that female - Her caudal isn't round as I thought, only her edges are. 

I don't think her condition is genetic. If it were, it should have showed some time ago. IMO she got it during the courtship. Hope she fully recovers.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Thats good to hear she is one of my favorites. I'm glad I spawned her to something now if it turns out she cant anymore. The blindness started showing after spawning and the gills were like that before... bah I hope she recovers to thanks guys


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Sure hope she does  my female has healed almost all fins in two days o.o just her bottom fin is a bit torn but not badly.

Should see her... With two other females, this gentle giant is in a twenty gallon. Before I had Spartan in there after the spawn didn't give offspring, but he is in a breeders net hidden mostly by plants (temporary). She purposely has herself between the wall and tank, and he lays next to her xD 

Almost wish I could ask them: "what are ya, married??" lol  cute though.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Fish don't have the mental capabilities for such complex emotions as love. Some fish tolerate each other better than others but they don't remember specific fish or recognize ones they've met in the past. And betta splendens do no pair off. Under normal circumstances. They're opportunistic breeders
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know only few fish pair. But it's funny because they like each other as buddies lol (won't have them together though, lest it be for spawning) she doesn't fear him and he doesn't attack her. But she is a gentle giant however lol

So, she didn't appear to care for the other males, but she was interested in Spartan only. Spartan has only seen one female though


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Just a random question, but would the genetics get messed up if I paired two bettas that were from the same parents? 

My male decided that he likes boys so no spawning for him  but I will be getting 2 new girls soon and a lovely new boy all from the same spawn and was wondering if it would be safe for them.....


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Sibling breeding and line breeding is safe for up to 6 or 7 generations, some like to take it farther but personally I wouldn't take it much past 6.


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Ok, so it should be safe  Thanks!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Usually siblings are bred for a particular tail - from what I learned. So both CT, you know they were at least the same genes, so higher chances of the CT. instead of a female from different spawn (different parents) who looks CT but could have VT...


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I believe they are bred, or at least why I breed them together, to to show a recessive trait. If you have a dominant gene somewhere in the mix it will take over, if you are familiar with a punnet square it works like that, and mixing siblings can help bring a recessive trait to show.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah, I think I was shown that square.. The "xx, xy, yy" kind of thing lol


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

A CT is a CT. A fish can't look like a CT but be a VT. The mark of a CT is significant web reduction and VTs typically have no web reduction on the caudal or dorsal fins and very little if any on the anal fin.

If you want a certain look you go with a sib pair. That's the most reliable way to ensure you'll get something close to what you want. For instance I'm getting a blue marble pair of HMPK that are siblings because the fins and the color of the pair are what I want to see in the fry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Spartan is a HM cross (from what I see). I know he doesn't look like a full HM, but I'll still breed him if I can  wouldn't mind knowing what Madame is... Or the two youngsters. The lil' ones look the same as her so perhaps from the same parents...


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

What does an HM cross mean? Either he is or he isn't HM. If he doesn't have the full spread and 4 or more ray branches he's not an HM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

Sena Hansler said:


> Spartan is a HM cross (from what I see). I know he doesn't look like a full HM, but I'll still breed him if I can  wouldn't mind knowing what Madame is... Or the two youngsters. The lil' ones look the same as her so perhaps from the same parents...


what's an HM cross?


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'd also like to know what a halfmoon cross is. What was the HM parent crossed with?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

For Colors, I see he is a Halfmoon, but he has short spikey ends on his fins? Plus his tail is much longer than any other betta I own. Forget what he could be... Spartan I have no idea. All I know is he is not a complete halfmoon, but he looks like one.

remember here we only have a pet store. One store. The bettas are unknown, but visibly most you can tell are Veiltails. Once they had a complete Halfmoon betta, except that they were asking 30 dollars for them each, rather than the 6 dollars for the mix breeds. They didn't sell very well ><



1fish2fish said:


> What does an HM cross mean? Either he is or he isn't HM. If he doesn't have the full spread and 4 or more ray branches he's not an HM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well then YOU tell me what he is ;-)... I've got enough pictures in my albums of him :lol: He does not look like a veiltail however. Someone I think mentioned he could be "Dalmation" but I have no idea what that means because to me a dalmation = spots ><

Actually, look for a post that's probably labelled "What is Spartan and Colors?"  Maybe then more people could answer with what they think... Also, since my ADF mucnhed on Spartan's fins, when they are growing back they are going slightly spiked o.o is that normal?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

There is no such thing, at least to my knowledge, of a HM cross.. HM are just an explanation of how the 180* spread, thats why 2 delta's can make a HM genetically they have the same symmetrical style and even rays that can lead to a HM with good breeding. VT are different because their rays are uneven and asymmetrical. Your boy is still a VT because of his rays, he might have had some kind of delta in his past because of how wide his tail is but he is still a VT and babies produced would carry no trait of anything delta/HM related unless the female was a proven breeder of HM's and deltas and even then it would take a few generations.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To my knowledge HM were created from VT - years of breeding hundreds of them - VT with wider caudals.... 
IME many VT start of looking like oval or even delta with round end - something like your guy - Later when they get older and their fins fully develop. the caudal will bend/curve down wards..... so how old is your guy?

On the other hand, since people are cross breeding excessively, he could be a cross between a HM/delta to a VT. Nevertheless he would still be classified as a VT. .... again age can determine what he is - if he is fully grown, and has such fins - then you can consider him to be a cross breed. Other wise, he is a VT.

Either way, as creat mentioned, you will unlikely produce HM by spawning him to a non HM. Even with a good HM female you will produce deltas. But you can eventually get HM if you selectively breed the offspring - many generations.


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## nochoramet (Oct 2, 2009)

Colors have nothing to do with the tail type, that's a whole new range of genetics. A half moon tail and a veil tail can have the exact same color, but it's still a half moon, and still a veil tail.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

As I said in the other thread your fish are VT. Tail type is determined by ray count for the most part and both of your fish clearly only have 2 ray branches which makes them VT. Neither of them had any apparent web reduction to make it seem like they had any CT crossed into them either.

Some VT have wider caudal bases but that doesn't make them any thing other than VT.

As to the colors, they're both considered multicolors. Neither of them were "dalmatian" which is a solid (usually orange) body with dark red spots. Some also call white bettas with black spots Dalmatians also... but it's just another made up name.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Okay so if HM cannot cross, what exactly is a "halfsun"? Just saying. Anyways, it's up in "betta pictures". I am not an expert, okay? I just own bettas. I just recently learned of different "tails" and different color combinations like "dalmation" or "tri-color" or "mask".


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

And I am still learning as yall talk about them 0_0 so much to keep up with! Ahh!! Migraine!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

ahahaha I know right? xD But now I apparently may face the fact my Spartan has a tumor -.- -unhappy-


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm so sorry  but that doesnt mean it will hurt him, I've seen lots of fish have tumors and live extreamly long lives.  I'm sure he will be ok too.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Except I watch it progress  it used to be "just his marking" but it's started to "bubble?" (if that's the right word D and it's visible from the other side. It's near his tail rather than chest, luckily. Otherwise I doubt he'd be as active and hungry as he is xD


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Well if it's by the tail it may not affect him at all!! He will be ok  Do you still plan to have him spawn and have cute many spartans?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I am definitely not giving up on breeding him. It WAS his first time, as it was Madame's. And I do not care if people say bettas "don't pair up" Madame only seems to like HIM (figure that out -.- ) and vice versa. Same with "Mollies don't pair" yet I had one male, who liked HIS one female. All the others went untouched!!!


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Some bettas do in fact pair up together, I had a couple a few years back that did, if I had them any where else they would be very down.. rarely swimming. I tried everything to, mirrors, other bettas, live food, nothing worked. But then I also had bettas would spawn with any other  It all depends on the personality i guess.. When Spartan spawns with her keep me updated! I'd love to see how it goes  and I really wanna see how the fry turn out


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## Bambi (Sep 11, 2011)

-edited because i'm obviously way behind and dn't see the other pages-

However, if he has a tumor are you sure you should breed him? t may affect the offspring?


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

I would never breed a betta with an obvious tumor. Any resulting fry will likely develop one at some point, making it unethical to breed him. 

Why would you breed a fish with a tumor? It will put more strain on his system, and possibly kill him from the stress of spawning, no matter how gentle he or the female may be. Not to mention that the resulting fish will likely have the gene for that tumor, resulting in sick fish either for you or whoever you give these fish to.


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## Ritingyou (Sep 3, 2011)

Err.. this is going to end up causing a very bad arguement just like that abortion argument that people get into all the time.. how about we stick to everyone sees things in different ways and has their own opinions on situations and end that small discussion?  

Sorry... just really dont want people fighting.. I see enough of that as it is in my own neighborhood.


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

Take it from someone who had a fish with a similar tumor. It's not an easy thing to go through and I would urge you to not pass it on even if there's a chance it's inherited. My Whiskey lived with it for about 6 months to a year as it went from small bubbles to the size of two peas and then it burst open and I had to euthanize him. He was in a very bad way for the last month as it was. Another member here had a similar experience with her beloved Vulcan. It was heartbreaking to both of us in the end. My Whiskey's tumor was just about where your boy's is. It's something that seems to be showing up as more common. Yours would be maybe the 5th we've seen? I don't know if it's something that's getting into breeding stock from somewhere or not. It doesn't seem to show up until the fish is mature so maybe people don't even know it's being passed on. But it's a terrible thing to go through. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And I would hope no one would knowingly breed a fish with it as a possible issue, just in case. I truly hope your boy doesn't end up like my boy did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Halfsun is not a real tail type... at least not one recognized by the IBC. Plus a halfsun is not just an HM x CT, to get a NICE looking fish you have to go at least 2 generations at which point is no longer a pure HM/CT cross but crossing fish who have that heritage.

And I agree with both Amy and Vaygirl.... I would NEVER, EVER, EVER breed a fish with an obvious deformity, especially a tumor... I've seen too may fish die long, painful deaths or be euth'd due to complications from a tumor... I would never risk passing that down in generations or risk some poor soul having to deal with loosing a beloved pet due to something _I could have prevented._


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's why I have a question of him in the "betta diseases and emergencies". I mean it has only begun to raise somewhat (looking closer at him, as he absolutely loves me and won't shy away from hand, face, camera, etc LOL) where the ridges are apparent. But I will try anyways - and watch for my fry. Which just means I will just have to keep the fry until they are much older, so that I can see if any of them has the "spot". Plus then their colors will be really cool ^^ He was 6 months when I got him (real small lil' man) and he has the speck spot.

edit: ohh okay, about the halfsun. Although I will admit they do look pretty decent


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

I actually love decent looking halfsuns - but the thing is to get nice looking ones, you'd first cross your CT and HM - those fry wouldn't have great finnage. You'd have to then cross the best from the F1 spawn again, and then you might get the nice finnage, and not the 'I just got in a fight' looking ones.

I get being disappointed if you can't breed him anymore - I have 2 females with deformities - one I planned to breed. Now, I have to find another female for the male I had for her so I can breed him  I don't want to strain her if it's a tumor (may be dragon scaling gone wild, but that wouldn't be something to pass on either) and I don't want resulting babies having the deformity.

For fry already, this will sound harsh, but I would cull them. Or at least cull them to the point of maybe 10ish, so that you can reasonably keep them all, and you aren't giving someone a fish they may possibly breed at some point (even if they say they won't, doesn't mean they won't. They may just say oh I won't breed to you to get the fish) and keep passing on a gene for tumors/cancer, or to cause someone the heartache of having a fish pass horribly from it


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't have fry. It was his first time, so he didn't exactly look like he knew what the heck to do and it ended up all the eggs "mysteriously disappeared". But now the female, who chose him, not too sure how to get her to take to another male (like Colors)


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

in all honesty, knowingly breeding a betta with a defect as bad as a tumor, makes you no better than the farms that produce the bettas walmart gets. you should breed to BETTER the next generation, and do everything you can to make them healthy. breeding a male with a tumor, could pass it on, and you won't be able to see if the fry will develop tumors right away. your male's probably about a year or two old, so you won't be able to see if the babies get tumors until they're about a year or two old, and by then they'll all have new homes and their new owners will have to watch as the tumor gets bigger and bigger.

also, as others have said, breeding him with that tumor could KILL your male. it's stressful, and i've seen accounts where perfectly healthy males have died from things like ick and velvet after spawning, because it lowers their immune systems. while he may be doing well now with the tumor, by spawning him OTHER complications could arise and he could go downhill too fast for you to save him.

i understand that you feel like the pair is a match made in heaven, but the HUMANE thing to do, would be to NOT spawn them at all. find another, healthier pair, and leave your male out of it.

just my $0.02 on this.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I DID NOT KNOW HE HAD A TUMOR UNTIL NOW so it's not my fault!

If I had known, and since I did a bit more research on it and it would be in fact genetic I am not breeding them okay?
There
end of story
So stop comparing me to corporations

and who said I felt they were a match made in heaven? She took to him only. I am saying now I cannot breed her (I would really like to because she is a very nice color combinaiton) because I don't know how to get her to actually display the signs she displayed for him.

I'm not breeding him! I said I wish I could, and I would have really liked to but you know what? I'm just comppletely devastated my favorite betta has a tumor, and the fact I'll never get fry from him.

So why don't we shut it, and vere this back onto the PROPER thread it is supposed to be? aka betta genetics not bashing me for "being no better" then people who sell to corporations.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Did you actually try to spawn her with another male or just stick her next to another male, not see any breeding stripes and then decided she'll breed with no other male? Like I said in the other thread there is no way to know if a pair will spawn unless they're in a spawning situation and properly conditioned.

I don't let my pairs see each other UNTIL they're introduced into the spawning tank. Any prior interaction has no bearing on whether or not they'll spawn.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I wanted her to breed with Colors. But she did not like him at all (conditioned and all). Dusk, she watched, but could care less for. Spartan, in less than 24 hours both were ready 

But right now Madame's community tank is being treated for ich (UGH) so no one is breeding for another month... which of course is when I move (hopefully) lol


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