# Betta swallowed thermometer lead beads please help!



## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

This morning I got up and found my betta laying somewhat sideways on his rocks. I observed him for a while & noticed that the bottom of his thermometer was broken & all of the red metal beads that were in the glass are nowhere to be found. My betta is mostly blind from a tumor he's had for about a year. He is 1&1/2 years old. He was totally fine yesterday. I have no doubt that he thought those red beads were his food, & ate them all. He tries to swim & then just sinks back down to the bottom. now he is weak & is having a harder time moving but he still is. Please if anybody has any suggestions let me know ASAP. I tested the water & all the levels are right on. I just did a 50% water change last week. Like I said he was fine when we went to bed last night.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry i really not sure what is the problem , i am pretty sure he could not swallow it though. He would probobly bleed to death to swallow that glass. But i would think the liquid inside of that glass thermometer can be poisoned for the tank. Not sure if the testing kit will show that. If you tank is not cycled do full water change. If it cycled do a few 50% water changes .Also rinse the filter and cartridge in the tank water or dechlorinated water.
I hope someone else will come to help you.


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## TorisExtraordinaryBettas (Nov 12, 2011)

I would put hi in a new container all together and see I the fresh water will make a difference


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## tngirl92 (Jul 16, 2012)

Yeah, quarantine him in a hospital container with fresh water and API Stress Coat, if you have any. I think one of the best things you can do at this point is to dose him with epsom salts in the hospital tank. Epsom salts will help him potty. If he did ingest any lead, the faster he can pass the beads, the better. I think lead poisons most animals when ingested, so you need to try to make him comfortable and see if he can pull through it. Epsom salts, in my opinion, will be your best bet right now to encourage a bowel movement and decrease any inflammation. Also, refrain from feeding him any of his fish food until you know what's going on.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you, I did try earlier to put him in fresh water & he got worse very quick as he had a hard time getting to the top for air. I have already done the salt in both waters today & put in melafix. But I will dig out his old 1 gallon tank and try that. He is trying so hard to hang in there!


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

springniles said:


> Thank you, I did try earlier to put him in fresh water & he got worse very quick as he had a hard time getting to the top for air. I have already done the salt in both waters today & put in melafix. But I will dig out his old 1 gallon tank and try that. He is trying so hard to hang in there!


Melafix is actually not a good thing to use. It may coat the labyrinth organ and suffocate him. 

I have no suggestions beyond what others have said. Good luck.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Fresh water is an absolute necessity!!!! Thermometers contain alcohol. You must remove it from the water ASAP. 

Now that he is in new water, I would continue to do partial water changes every few hours in order to draw out any toxins his body has absorbed. 

Adding Epsom salt at a dosage of 0.25 to 0.5 teaspoons per gallon is fine. I would NOT use aquarium salt - it is processed by the kidneys, which are already working hard to remove any alcohol or toxins that his body has absorbed. Do NOT use melafix - it is toxic to bettas.

If he has trouble reaching the surface, lower the water level. Also, put some plastic food wrap over the top of the tank to increase humidity levels. This will help him breathe and is calming. (Make sure there is at least several inches of air though.)


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## tngirl92 (Jul 16, 2012)

Ditto on cutting out the Melafix. I do not think any medications will help with what is going on with him. Right now the best thing you can give him is clean, warm, conditioned water and epsom salt. If he is having too much trouble swimming to the top for air, lower the water level and include some silk plants or other items he can rest on in your hospital tank.

Out of curiosity, how did your thermometer break? I have a glass thermometer in my tank and now I'm kind of worried...


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

He is in new water, did 100% water change, cleaned all of his rocks & plants & house. I have the water level at 3/4 to top in 10 gallon tank. He is actually breathing somewhat better this morning, but he's not moving really. I will do a 25% water change every couple of hours & see how that goes. I think this definitely sounds like his best option. I will also add the Epsom salt, thank you for noting the difference between that & aquarium salt. He's still hanging in there I can't believe it. Also I'm not sure when or how the thermometer broke.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Plastic wrap over the top of the tank should help, too. Also, you can keep the tank in a darkened location or cover it with a sheet or towel. Darkness is often calming for them, and can help reduce stress.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you, you have been most helpful. Also I'm wondering if I should keep doing what I've been doing, which is putting my clean hand in the tank & bringing him up to the surface for air. The tank is aerated though. He is used to me sticking my fingers in cuz that's how I play with him everyday, but anyway in doing do I'm making sure that he moves around once in a while. He has always let us pet him ( I know that's not good for his coat but he got so used to it & when we tried to stop he got really depressed. Anyway I was just wondering if you think it's best? He's been letting me hold him in the tank ( a few times ) & moves his head to acknowledge me talking to him, and I really think that making him move around a little bit is best for him right? He is just so used to human contact, and I don't just want to let him lay there & die. Am I doing the right thing?


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

P.S the melafix is in the garbage!


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

springniles
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Thank you, you have been most helpful. Also I'm wondering if I should keep doing what I've been doing, which is putting my clean hand in the tank & bringing him up to the surface for air. The tank is aerated though. He is used to me sticking my fingers in cuz that's how I play with him everyday, but anyway in doing do I'm making sure that he moves around once in a while. He has always let us pet him ( I know that's not good for his coat but he got so used to it & when we tried to stop he got really depressed. Anyway I was just wondering if you think it's best? He's been letting me hold him in the tank ( a few times ) & moves his head to acknowledge me talking to him, and I really think that making him move around a little bit is best for him right? He is just so used to human contact, and I don't just want to let him lay there & die. Am I doing the right thing? P.S the melafix is in the garbage!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Long time ago i had a betta who had dropsy . He had it for like 2 wks and last few days were very difficult so i was doing what you are doing. When i understood he is going to die any minute i put him in very shallow bowl so he could stick his head out of the water. I hope your betta will get better.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Do whatever you feel makes him the most comfortable.

If he's having trouble reaching the surface, you can lower the water level more so he doesn't have to swim as far.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Ok thanks  he isn't having trouble getting to the surface when I nudge him he zips right up there & gets a gulp of air but otherwise is just lying there not moving much. Time will tell. Thanks for all your help.


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## keepsmiling (May 19, 2013)

I am so sorry. What about almond leaves? It might help, it has healing properties for bettas.


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## jona31 (May 19, 2013)

how's he doing


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

So he can swim to the surface ok? That's good!

Does his abdomen look extended or distorted at all? Are you sure he ate the metal balls? (Could they be scattered in the gravel?)


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi, he's still alive. Yes he can swim but he is getting slower now & I don't think he goes to the top for air unless I prompt him with my hand. Then it seems he know to go grab some air. When he goes back to the bottom he kinda glides in for a landing, hitting his mouth on the gravel then just lays however. His side has taken on a goldish tint. I'm starting to wonder if he has velvet? I'm not sure if he did swallow the balls or not. When I combed through his gravel, I found the glass from the thermometer & only 1 metal bead. But I only searched 3/4 of his gravel & left the rest out. There were 6 rust marks on the very bottom of the tank. So I just don't know anymore. His body looks like it might have something that has slowly moved down towards the back & 3 days ago he was puffed up more around under his gills. Now that isn't like that. I'm wondering about getting some vitamin c for him as I read that could help in this case? Totally at a loss of what to do besides changing his water & the Epsom salt. He is one tough fish. I haven't heard about the other stuff but I'm going to the store & will see if they have any. I think I might buy the medication for velvet too. All I have is erythromycin & tetracycline, both of which I don't think will help & I'm pretty hesitant about the stuff for velvet too. This goldish tint really has me questioning what's going on.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Goldish/ brownish tint. He is blue/red betta. His face has been a little brownish for some time now though.


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## keepsmiling (May 19, 2013)

I don't see how the balls were lead. It would have killed him by now. Heck lead kills a bird practically in a day. Lead would not have left rust either I don't think? Maybe they were just steel?


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

I guess they might be steal, I just assumed they were lead because of the description of the thermometer in the fish forums. It was just a cheapo thermometer.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

It could be lead or steel. Both are used in aquatic thermometers.... 

But I would think that if he ate this, you'd see a bulge from it.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Yeah, he has had a little bulge moving down his body. I didn't buy any antibiotics. The pet zoo ( that's all we have here in Alaska ) girl recommended that I put him in a med tank with Distilled water , Epsom salt, & stress Zyme. And change that out 2x a day which is how often I've been changing his water. I'm wondering what everybody thinks about that? We don't have any speciality fish stores up here either so I couldn't find any vitamin c for fish tanks so I'm thinking I will go buy straight vitamin c pills, crush it up & put it in the tank. I'm talking like a really small dose like 40mg in his big tank or a tiny little piece in his smaller 1 gallon med tank ( like 5 mg ). So advice about the Distilled water anybody?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

No... No distilled water!

Living organisms needs electrolytes in order to survive. Distilled water does not contain these electrolytes. Humans can't drink it (on a regular basis), and fish can't live in it.... 

Also, putting him in distilled water will make him retain fluid. He'll end up becoming bloated, and could develop swim buoyancy issues because of it. 

If you want to use a different water, get bottled DRINKING water from the store. Look for one that says something like "minerals added for flavor." These minerals are the electrolytes we all need to maintain good health.

But really, I think his regular (tap) water is fine. I don't think you need to change it. He's doing well in it.

Epsom salt has a laxative effect. If he swallowed a metal ball, he needs to work it out of his system. Epsom salt is the best thing for doing that. However, it needs a day or two to work on normal constipation. Eliminating a metal ball may take even longer than this. (I hope he can eliminate it, and that it doesn't cause a blockage.)

Why are you considering Vitamin C? I would hesitate to add a tablet since there are dyes, fillers and binders in the vitamin tablet. I don't know the effect of these on fish.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Well I'm glad I didn't go buy any Distilled water! Anyway I'm considering vitamin c because it helps the liver rid the body of toxins. The same should apply to fish. I read online that it helps fish health & color of everything in the tank apparently & personally am a big believer in vitamins so that's why I was kinda thinking about that. And I know he's made it 3 days, but he has gotten progressively worse each day. I put him in his 1 gallon tank today with complete fresh water, stress Zyme, Epsom, conditioner, & easy balance. No rocks, house, plants- Nothing but a new hammock for him. Now he won't move at all without my help. And I have been watching really closely & he's gotta have some serious blockage going on cuz I haven't seen him go poop at all. Nothing. But then again I've never seen him go ever- neither has my husband! It should be easier to see now with nothing in his little tank though. He's got a bump down that way now but i think it's too big for him to pass. How long should I let him go with no bowel movement?


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Also I didn't think the Distilled water seemed like the right thing to do & I asked why she recommended that & she said it was because it would make his lungs work harder & help him rid the toxins faster or better? I thought this didn't seem right. Distilled water isn't fit for any living thing that I know of so I'm glad you got back to me & reassured me & educated me yet again! Thank you


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm getting a lot of info from this link:
www.livingreefs.com/use-vitamin-c-t590....

But I've also been on numerous other sites checking it out.


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

Melafix is not toxic when used correctly, which is 1/4th the recommended dose. All treatments are potentially toxic when overdosed or dosed incorrectly. I have not once come across an accredited scientific journal article suggesting this about melafix; only amateur keepers threads blaming a medication for which something else could have easily resulted in the death of the fish. In relation to the anatomy of bettas and the way medications travel through the body, I can't find much sense in suggestions made about it. Still, there are much better treatment options, and medications should always be a last resort.

I'm not meaning to sound rude as that is not my intention at all- text is often misinterpreted with a lack of smilies lol

As little blue fishlets has said, the main issue here, is not only poisoning (the materials the thermometers contain aren't necessarily toxic to fish, and to be honest it is not the biggest risk) but the beads blocking and forming obstructions within the digestive tract. 

How long has he been in epsom and at what dosage? 

Secondly, how is he in terms of digestive function? What do his poo's look like?

How is he behaving? Is he still bloated?

As it has been said, he may have not eaten any, but please post some pictures if you can since you think he may have other issues?

As for pet store advice, ignore it. Most are given basic information and know little to nothing about diagnosing and treating fish. If you do get advice, take it with light intentions and do not rely on it. 

Thanks!


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Nemo is still alive! Yay! It's been 4 days now!

To answer your questions, he has been in Epsom salt for 3 days at 1/2 tsp per gallon. His digestive function is nothing. No poo that I know of. Except when I changed his water today I noticed a long white string in the water with him so I'm wondering if that's his poo? Never seen him go so not sure. He has not ate anything in 4 days. I change his water by 50% every 2-3 weeks and I add about 1-2gallons every week because of evapotation. 10 gallon tank. But now he is in a 1gallon tank.

He is completely lethargic but at least now he will pick up his fins to let himself move around on the bottom of the tank. He doesn't swim unless I nudge him or pick him up off the bottom. Then he can but don't want to for more then a second or 3. Today he has been picking up his head as you will see in the pics. 

He doesn't look bloated at all but I have noticed a little bulge moving down his body. Today he looks smaller than normal. His body has gotten thinner I think.

Now as for his fins they are not in the best condition. Over the course of 1 &1/2 years, He has been treated with beta fix ( did work first time, not the 2nd ) erythromycin, & apparently way to much melafix. i treated his fins again about 2 months ago with the melafix which wasnt any help at all. He got a HUGE tumor that exploded & then turned white on the outside. This is the time I treated him with erythromycin. That tumor has gradually made him go mostly blind. I say that cuz he has trouble eating his pellets usually. Depends on the lighting I guess.

Then 2 days ago he accidentally got sucked up into the filter of the first med tank I tried to do ( as if he wasn't already in bad shape ) but my husband spooked him & he jetted right up there head first. I dont know how he got through the blockage but Came out with a big cloudy eye & it was a little bloody. And a small cut on top of his head. Can you imagine?! Now the cut is almost completely healed & he still moves both of his eyes around when I'm talking to him & moving from side to side.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pics


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pic 2


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pic 3


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pic 4


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pic 5


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pic 6


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## keepsmiling (May 19, 2013)

Wow..those photos are unreal. That is a big bump. I hope he gets well.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Pic 7


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

The big white lump is his tumor. In pic 2 you can see the tail end has something & right in the middle is a slight bump to right where that brown spot is but I'm not sure if you can tell from this pic.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

And also in photo 2 you can see a brown line down at the end of his tail right next to a little white hole. Those two things were not there yesterday.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

The brown line definitely looks like a burn mark.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

This was nemo on day 2 before the accident.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

It looks like he's suffering to me. Can he do anything on his own?

And to Narny, tea tree oil is a main ingredient in Melafix/bettafix/primafix etc... And tea tree oil coats the labrynth organ on anabantoid fish (that is; betta, gourami and other oxygen breathing fish). This can potentially destroy the organ so they can no longer use it. It's not that everybody on this forum is "mediocre" caregivers, there is scientific proof and multiple personal cases to back it up. Betta fix is just a diluted form of melafix so it is safe to use in small amounts but the directions on the bottle state to add more everyday without doing a water change and this is where the problems arise. It's just safer to skip using it altogether.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Still day 2


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Yeah, he can still swim when he wants. This was yesterday.


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

Narny105 said:


> Melafix is not toxic when used correctly, which is 1/4th the recommended dose. All treatments are potentially toxic when overdosed or dosed incorrectly. I have not once come across an accredited scientific journal article suggesting this about melafix; only amateur keepers threads blaming a medication for which something else could have easily resulted in the death of the fish. In relation to the anatomy of bettas and the way medications travel through the body, I can't find much sense in suggestions made about it. Still, there are much better treatment options, and medications should always be a last resort.
> 
> I'm not meaning to sound rude as that is not my intention at all- text is often misinterpreted with a lack of smilies lol
> 
> ...


Well, I would still rather be safe than sorry. I work at a store that treats bettas with Bettafix (although I've cautioned against it), and I've seen fish with very simple cases of fin rot die after being treated. While I can't say for sure that it was the Bettafix, I would rather not take the risk with my own fish. That's why every time I caution against it I say "it may" coat the labyrinth organ.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

I wish when I was trying to post earlier you guys coulda saw those picks cuz he had his head all the way up in the middle of the tank. It's the farthest I've seen him stretch in 2 days. I had so many really great picks & they all went into thin air while I was trying to figure out how to post stuff. I think he is marginally better today. I am seeing some movement and him trying to at least watch me. But not in this pic. I'm trying to show you guys the color he had on day 2.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't know. These pictures break my heart. Is he currently in 2-3 inches of water in a cup in the heated tank with plastic wrap over the top? I just had to euthanize my combtail last week and he didn't look as bad as your poor boy


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Oh believe me, the only thing that I've been doing for the last 4 days is taking care of my little guy. I have no doubt that he is suffering, but he also seems like he's trying so hard to live. Especially when he puts himself up against the glass & watches us. I just don't know what to do anymore. I really think that white string was a bowel movement which is what he needs obviously. He is really fighter though. I think I will wait till tomorrow to see if there's more improvement before I do anything. And also how the heck to you euthanize a fish?


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

And no, he not in any cup. He's in a 1 gallon tank with a light & a filter. But the carbon isn't in the filter right now, I just have the water recycling itself for arieation.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

And also to everybody, I appreciate everybody pitching in & giving me advice & I can tell you that probably everybody in this forum knows more about fish then I do obviously. I have maybe now gotten educated enough through here & my own research to have advanced to what I would consider a "beginner" previous to this, I only knew that u have to change water often, putting in conditioner, & balancing stuff, aquarium salt & testing water every week, checking temperature daily, feeding, that betas do best on their own, can't put male & females together, and that betas & goldfish don't need arieation in their water to breath cuz they'll go get it if they need it. And that fish love all the attention they can get & they hate it when you tap on the glass. And that was about the extent of my knowledge. Lol  I'm no dummy but just never had any interest in fish until my daughter got nemo for Christmas, and he has become mine. So any advice I get, I use my own best judgement which is why I didn't change the water to Distilled water.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

And this is what he does today!!


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

I don't think you should give up on him if he's fighting to live. My theory on it is that animals let go when they are ready. Until that point and time, I think you should fight alongside of them to help them and keep them comfortable. That's just my opinion on it though, and I respect the fact that others have other opinions. In the end, you have to do what you feel is best and use your own moral compass to drive the choices that you (and only you) have to live with. Good luck with your guy.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you  I'm not ready to give up on him just yet!


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

Laki said:


> It looks like he's suffering to me. Can he do anything on his own?
> 
> And to Narny, tea tree oil is a main ingredient in Melafix/bettafix/primafix etc... And tea tree oil coats the labrynth organ on anabantoid fish (that is; betta, gourami and other oxygen breathing fish). This can potentially destroy the organ so they can no longer use it. It's not that everybody on this forum is "mediocre" caregivers, there is scientific proof and multiple personal cases to back it up. Betta fix is just a diluted form of melafix so it is safe to use in small amounts but the directions on the bottle state to add more everyday without doing a water change and this is where the problems arise. It's just safer to skip using it altogether.


Tea tree oil within the medication is refined- it doesn't coat the labryinth, and I know that there are no accredited scientific papers to confirm this. The organ itself is not hypersensitive to medications; the gills have more potential risk of coating in substances. Melafix at 1/4th the dose, I am pretty sure it the dose of bettafix. A full dose of melafix is an overdose, and that is where I personally believe people blame the labyrinth and the medication. I am yet to see a necropsy confirming this, and it is pretty impossible to tell that the medication had any cause in affecting the labyrinth from visual signs of the fish dying when there are several other factors. Of course, I'm not saying to use it, since if people are hesitant of it then they shouldn't dose it if they don't feel comfortable. I've used it in the past, but honestly I find little use for the medication anyway. There are so many better alternatives; it's just marketed way too much like most meds!  

I just don't believe it, and from what I've learnt it just doesn't make sense, but that's just my view- if you don't want to use it, then there's no harm done not using it


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

NeptunesMom said:


> Well, I would still rather be safe than sorry. I work at a store that treats bettas with Bettafix (although I've cautioned against it), and I've seen fish with very simple cases of fin rot die after being treated. While I can't say for sure that it was the Bettafix, I would rather not take the risk with my own fish. That's why every time I caution against it I say "it may" coat the labyrinth organ.


Exactly; if you're uncomfortable then don't use it. I realised I came across as quite blunt there, so I apologise


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm sorry about your fish, Springniles. It must be a very difficult situation 

The main worry is that he may become aneamic in the epsom, and from how he is looking, I think that should really be reduced down to 1/4th tsp per 10 gallons and maintained for no longer than 8 days total (including what you've already done)

Hopefully he will pull through, but I'm sorry to say I don't think he will in his current state  I don't think medications will really be of help considering he already has such a compromised system at the moment, and his organs simply wouldn't be able to cope with filtering through medication.

What is his behaviour like today? I personally would also give him a little more time just for hopes sake, but ultimately it's your decision

Keep up the good work!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

You can use epsom indefinitely, for as long as he needs to pick up on his own. aquarium salt is the one you shouldn't use longer than a 10 day trial.


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

Laki said:


> You can use epsom indefinitely, for as long as he needs to pick up on his own. aquarium salt is the one you shouldn't use longer than a 10 day trial.


You cannot use any medication indefinitely. Aquarium salt can be used for as long as needed, epsom cannot. Magnesium sulfate exposure at high dose or a long period of time does have several side-effects; whether or not you have experienced this yourself. As you know, epsom pulls retaining fluids from the body, whilst sodium chloride does the opposite and retains fluids to an extent. I don't see how you can safely dose something that pulls fluids from the body indefinitely. Sodium chloride can be used for much longer than 10 days, but still had its dosage recommendations. I routinely use salt to treat alongside praziquantel with flukes, and that treatment can last 4-6 weeks depending on how many praiquantel cycles I do.

Here's some information on epsom. These recommendations/information are also found in Noga's Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzo...p?/page/index.html/_/articles/epsom-salt-r331

I am working on getting some more reputable sources.


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## mybabyjets (Jun 4, 2013)

Laki said:


> I don't know. These pictures break my heart. Is he currently in 2-3 inches of water in a cup in the heated tank with plastic wrap over the top? I just had to euthanize my combtail last week and he didn't look as bad as your poor boy


how did you euthanize a fish?


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Well the important part is that we know both sides of the argument & everybody can make up thier own mind wether they want to use it or not that either you use very little of melafix or not at all!!! So anyway, all medication aside, how long to wait for the beads to pass? I would think 5 days would be suffient enough time right? How long can a fish suffer before it dies from a blockage of some sort? I thought he was better today & acted that way for a couple hours but now this afternoon his breathing is shallow & he hasn't moved in hours. But he is still alive.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

It could take a few days yes. 5 days at the most and he should be checked for poops and/or lethargy etc. But after 5 days he will need food.


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

It will definitely take longer to pass than other matter, but with the epsom, good temperature, you should have had some fecal waste pass by now. 

It's not possible to really give you an indication of time for how long a fish can survive with blockages, when you can assume that some form of blockage or obstruction has occurred, etc. It's just a really tough thing to say sorry 

I honestly would have thought 5 days plenty too, but ultimately the decision is up to you. Nothing else can really be done other than keeping the water very clean and trying to help him pass something with epsom and warm water. He cannot go for more than a week without food

I would wonder if a pea and epsom crystal might be a good idea, but I don't think putting something into him will necessarily make the situation better since the epsom is already quite high.

I would still reduce the epsom down to 1/4th tsp per 10 gallons. He's been at the current dosage for long enough with no progress at passing waste


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you Narny105, I think I have way to much salt in the water altogether. Definitely not even considering using any kind of medication. And I have my doubts as well but at least now I have some sort of a time table for him. At this point, his condition hasn't changed. He is just laying there. This morning he was sticking his head up & moving around to doing nothing but laying there. I think I wore him out getting all the pictures done. We'll see how he's doing tomorrow but for now I need to get him out of that much salt he's in. 

There are always different opinions when it comes to medication. 

Littlebluefishlets, laki, narny105, you have all really been a great help to me and the rest of you posting in the beginning as well. I will keep you all apprised of his status. 

Thank you all


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

I agree, and I would like to say that I don't mean to offend anyone's treatments, methods, etc. Discussions are always a healthy way to provide better methods to help others, and I mean only to discuss since we all are individuals and have different opinions. I know text is easily misinterpreted and can come across as rude 

I hope the best for your little guy. Hopefully tomorrow will come with good news!


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Also I will post a pic of what he came out of the cup with this morning when I was changing his water. It was a white long string & it's on the filter in my next pic.


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

Sounds like clear stringy poo


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Yeah it seemed more white when I put him back in the tank. Now it looks like a piece of skinny lint.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Couldn't get a good pic of it on the filter but here.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

This is a little better


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

It could just be some fabric/lint introduced into the tank- it's really hard to tell from the pictures, but it does look like fecal matter too.

It's a good indication that he might be digesting, but unfortunately it tells us little in regards to his current state. Hopefully you'll find something more tomorrow!


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

So I just changed out his water & while he was in his cup again there was some white stuff in there. It must be his poo. And he swam around quite a bit in his cup. It looks like he's pooping salt, like it went through his digestive system & came out like stringy cotton.


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

That's good to hear he is more active. Stringy white poo could literally be caused due to anything; might be stress, constipation, etc. Regardless, it's good to see that something is coming out.

Hopefully he will continue to improve

fins crossed!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Fingers crossed! Hopefully it's not just slime coat shedding. We're all anticipating the poop stories!


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Hopefully I will have some for you all! I think I got him to eat 1 little tropical flake.


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

springniles said:


> Hopefully I will have some for you all! I think I got him to eat 1 little tropical flake.


Yay!  It sounds like a little progress.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

As long as i am on this forum and reading a lot of post from beginning to outcome, i learned that aquarium salt can be used up to 14 days since it will damage the kidneys and build the fluid in the body. But as for Epsom salt you can use it for long time and in some cases like chronic constipation you can use indefinitely in low dosages. A lot of people who is on the forum long enough knew Oldfishlady who was treating and breeding bettas all her life. She is the one who introduce everyone on this forum to all natural remedies . It kind of amezing that she is not even on the forum any longer but every one keep recommending and following her instructions. LittleBllueFishlest one of the most knowlageble person on this forum so i would really follow her instructions. And i would never write it if i would not be absolutelly sure about it. But Epsom salt you can use for long time. You don't use it long enough. The right and save dosage on Epsom salt -1tsp/gall up to 3 tsp/gall . Epsom salt helps with internal problem and like LittleBlueFishlets wrote basically has laxative affect so it the best for him right now. So i would not stop it, especially if you think he pooped. Obviously it helping. Don't take him off the Epsom salt.


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> As long as i am on this forum and reading a lot of post from beginning to outcome, i learned that aquarium salt can be used up to 14 days since it will damage the kidneys and build the fluid in the body. But as for Epsom salt you can use it for long time and in some cases like chronic constipation you can use indefinitely in low dosages. A lot of people who is on the forum long enough knew Oldfishlady who was treating and breeding bettas all her life. She is the one who introduce everyone on this forum to all natural remedies . It kind of amezing that she is not even on the forum any longer but every one keep recommending and following her instructions. LittleBllueFishlest one of the most knowlageble person on this forum so i would really follow her instructions. And i would never write it if i would not be absolutelly sure about it. But Epsom salt you can use for long time. You don't use it long enough. The right and save dosage on Epsom salt -1tsp/gall up to 3 tsp/gall . Epsom salt helps with internal problem and like LittleBlueFishlets wrote basically has laxative affect so it the best for him right now. So i would not stop it, especially if you think he pooped. Obviously it helping. Don't take him off the Epsom salt.



OFL . I wish she would come back. She helped me so much when I first got Neptune.


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## rubinthebetta (Oct 9, 2012)

I hope he pulls through. :-( From what I've heard, any kind of fish mediation with 'fix' in the name should be avoided. The Epsom salt treatment seems to be helping you lots.  But if you think you have a lot of salt, if you haven't already, you can try a partial water change if you think he'll be okay. I'm so happy that he finally seems to be recovering at least a little bit. Tomorrow I'll make you a little drawing of the human version of your little survivor. Best of luck from me! Make sure to tell Nemo that we're all hoping he gets better.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i know i miss OFL too
I just forgot to mention that a lot of sites and even Aq salt box instructions recommending to use salt as a preventative care on regular basis. The instructions on the box (not therapeutic dosage) that is what Narny105 probobly meant.
But when you using it on regular basis , it doesn't prevent disease or parasites and long term use can cause resistant pathogens/parasites issues and kidney damage...and long term non-therapeutic dosage can limit it ability to work for treatment when needed


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## Narny105 (Jun 6, 2013)

I didn't mean that aq salt can be used as a preventative (no meds should be used preventative unless there is good reason to do so), but it can be used for longer than 10-14 days. In relation to dosages, I'm talking about solutions like 0.05% and 0.1% etc- they will ultimately affect the duration of treatment. But yes, anything can form resistance to medications including rock salt if used incorrectly. Just trying to clarify what I meant by my post prior

As for the epsom, I'll just have to agree to disagree  I understand each forum has their different methods which I respect, but I will stick with mine


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks  and yeah I felt like littlebluefishlets knew her stuff because once she started commenting, everybody else kinda let her guide me which says a lot! Anyway I haven't discontinued the Epsom but I will add this info as laki, narny, littlebluefishlets, & everybody else really got me thinking about melafix. So after I saw his bowel movements, I started going through the rest of the gravel & I found a whole bunch of the beads from the thermometer. So I started thinking about other causes for his illness & last week when I cleaned his tank thoroughly & did about 75% water change, I added a whole bunch of melafix. And continued to do so for another 2-3 days and I didnt change the water cuz I was gonna do the water change this week. Then he got the way he is now. Another thing I've been doing is adding aquarium salt on a monthly basis. Like 2 rounded TBLS. So I've come to the conclusion that he is definitely poisioned. Cuz I put in like 2-3 hefty squirts of melafix everyday for 3 days. That has got to be what his problem is- I poisioned him. And as far as the beads are concerned- nemo is a very smart fish, one time he tried to eat a piece of his fin that fell off and immediately spit it back out. He wouldn't have swallowed the beads- he woulda spit them out. After handling all the rocks, took me couple hours, but all I could smell the whole time was medicine. So maybe his body just has those little bumps - at least that's what I'm hoping. I've seen his belly pouched out before but when I saw that thermometer broken, lying on the rocks like he was, & no sign of any beads & I freaked. I've been thinking about anything else that could've happened & I think that's it. Still wondering though.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

And if he does pull through this, I don't know how or what I will be able to get his fins good again. I know that I won't be using any medication for a good 6 months. If at all.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Also I've come to the conclusion that each of the salts have their place in the aquarium, it just depends on the situation


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## Lights106 (May 16, 2013)

poor guy!!


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

That's good you found the beads! So he has a fighting chance afterall what with the eating. When, if, he does a 180* his fins will heal themselves.


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

springniles said:


> Thanks  and yeah I felt like littlebluefishlets knew her stuff because once she started commenting, everybody else kinda let her guide me which says a lot! Anyway I haven't discontinued the Epsom but I will add this info as laki, narny, littlebluefishlets, & everybody else really got me thinking about melafix. So after I saw his bowel movements, I started going through the rest of the gravel & I found a whole bunch of the beads from the thermometer. So I started thinking about other causes for his illness & last week when I cleaned his tank thoroughly & did about 75% water change, I added a whole bunch of melafix. And continued to do so for another 2-3 days and I didnt change the water cuz I was gonna do the water change this week. Then he got the way he is now. Another thing I've been doing is adding aquarium salt on a monthly basis. Like 2 rounded TBLS. So I've come to the conclusion that he is definitely poisioned. Cuz I put in like 2-3 hefty squirts of melafix everyday for 3 days. That has got to be what his problem is- I poisioned him. And as far as the beads are concerned- nemo is a very smart fish, one time he tried to eat a piece of his fin that fell off and immediately spit it back out. He wouldn't have swallowed the beads- he woulda spit them out. After handling all the rocks, took me couple hours, but all I could smell the whole time was medicine. So maybe his body just has those little bumps - at least that's what I'm hoping. I've seen his belly pouched out before but when I saw that thermometer broken, lying on the rocks like he was, & no sign of any beads & I freaked. I've been thinking about anything else that could've happened & I think that's it. Still wondering though.


How big is your tank? 2 tablespoons is a lot of salt. During treatment it should be 1 teaspoon per gallon of aquarium salt and no more. I would bet you are right that his problems stem from poor water care. I bet now that you've figured that out he'll start to turn around. 

Treatment of fin issues really only needs warm, clean water. The salt helps speed up the expulsion of dead tissue, but it is not necessary.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

I'm sorry to say this, but at this point I'd euthanize him. I don't like what "I" see in the photos.

I never let a fish get to this point anymore...


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

He was in a 10 gallon tank. And I've only been using the salt for the last 3 months. His fins have always been a problem & I keep a very clean tank. Maybe you didn't read but I change his water by 50% every 2-3 weeks. Also about 2 gallons evaporate every week, so he is constantly getting fresh clean water every week. And the water temp has always been a consistent 78 degrees. I test weekly and always the tests are perfect except my water is just a little hard.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

You giving him excellent help and trying to save little guy life. I would not give up. We all love our bettas and want to help them, and i think since they have little brain , they less sensitive to the pain. The do feel sick and weak , like something wrong but they don't have a lot of sensitivities to the pain. If they will feel pain they will spasm or have sudden contraction or convulsive movements. So i would not give up. You doing and you did good job.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks ANHEL123, I appreciate the kind words & support.


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## springniles (Jun 30, 2013)

Just to keep everybody up to date I've decided to go ahead and ethunize my little nemo. It's been 5 days now & in reality he's just not doing any better. I feel it's time. We tried. Thanks for trying to help me everybody!


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## Kittiesdragons (May 1, 2013)

Awww... I'm so sorry springniles. I know you tried your very hardest


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

See your PM. I'm so sorry for your loss. SIP Nemo.


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## Lights106 (May 16, 2013)

Sip!!


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