# Culling to Reduce Spawn Size.. Ethical or No?



## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

I have been wondering for a while what everyone's thoughts on this question are! I think culling deformed fry is a must, but what about early on to control the amount of fry you'll end up with? The male betta will only eat so many (usually)... does this method seem unethical to you guys or reasonable?

I personally don't lean either way, but I wouldn't cull to reduce size only because I'm trying to show down the line... So it'd be my luck that I'd cull off all the show winners haha!


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## pdxBetta (Mar 15, 2011)

I agree. l wouldn't cull until I could at least tell what the fry looked like. Only a small percentage of fish may be top quality, and if you cull early, you are losing some of those fish.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Since this can be a touchy subject, I want to remind everyone to be respectful of each others' opinions, even if you don't agree with it.


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

Oh goodness I didn't think it'd get that touchy... Well then yes, please be respectful everyone! Lol. I thought culling was well practiced in the breeding community....


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## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

I'd say that its needed. Not only to help further a line in show and all that, but to help with fish with chronic issues and health problems/deformities, just as they would in the wild.
I know this particular kind of fish would not be found in the wild, but it DOES happen in nature- the weak do not survive.

Yeah, erryone, be respectful ;3 I hope this wont get messy or anything- especially with new to breeding and whiny members.. Ha.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

We've had members in ther past who didn't believe in it so I just thought I'd ask everyone to be respectful of each others' opinions. I don't expect any problems, though.


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## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

No, I know. I dont think there will be issues, either. <3


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

PewPewPew said:


> I'd say that its needed. Not only to help further a line in show and all that, but to help with fish with chronic issues and health problems/deformities, just as they would in the wild.
> I know this particular kind of fish would not be found in the wild, but it DOES happen in nature- the weak do not survive.
> 
> Yeah, erryone, be respectful ;3 I hope this wont get messy or anything- especially with new to breeding and whiny members.. Ha.


See I too agree fully on culling later when you can spot visible deformities etc, but is it a little unfair to cull eggs off before we even know what's going on in there? Wow ok I can see why this would be touchy haha. It kinda mirrors a common debate in the US! Oops!


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## LolaQuigs (Mar 28, 2010)

I would only cull for deformities or genetic issues that would impact the fish's quality of life. I would never cull just because I had too many fry. I figure, if you don't have the space/means to take care of all of the potential offspring, then don't breed in the first place. This is why I know I will never breed.

I also would never cull healthy fish that don't have desired colors/fins/aesthetic attributes. Nothing should have to die just because it doesn't look the way a person wants it to look. And as long as you don't breed them, you don't have to worry about fish with undesireable appearances uglying up the gene pool.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm fine with culling to control spawn size, especially if your still learning. 

I'll be doing heavy culling with my fry. I don't have the space to jar hundreds of fish, luckily by the time they're old enough to start jarring you can usually tell who is gonna be a good fish and who isn't, although there are always wild cards.

If you get a spawn and your not prepared for it.. I wholeheartedly agree with culling the entire spawn. That goes for any animal IMO. The way I see it.. sure each fry should deserve a chance at life... but when your talking pets you also have to think about all the other pets out there still waiting for homes.. I think that's one of the things that separates an ethical (or perhaps resposnible would be a better word) breeder from just a breeder. I think keeping a every fish alive just because you don't have the stomach to cull is a little selfish.

Then again.. my ultimate goal in breeding is to produce the greatest quality fish I can, not to supply the world with more "ok" pets. I also, as a breeder working towards a goal of improving genetics, don't want to risk the fish I deem unworthy of breeding getting out into the world and being spawned by those who may not know why I deemed them unacceptable.

Breeding is harsh, not just in fish but in dogs, horses, and any other animal you want to breed. I am of the opinion that if your not helping the animal by doing everything you can to improve it (or in some cases merely keep it going in the instances of some rare breeds and species of fish that are on the endangered species list)... you are only hurting it in the long run.

Think of it this way.. there's been a discussion going on the IBC boards about the colors of yesteryear that we are no longer seeing... there are talks to try to get breeders to start bringing those colors back. Now think of some things that caused those colors to begin to fade, on thing could be breeders who allowed less than ideal fish to slip out into the stratosphere and be bred, who in turn were bred, eventually diluting the color. (Of course there's a lot more that goes into this scenario).


Culling is one of those things that everyone does but no one likes to talk about because people have a tendency to anthropomorphize and therefore they begin to see culling as the same thing as abortion.. which IMO it's not.

That was a really longwinded reply which I think got a little off topic.. so to answer the original question. Yes, I am fine with culling early to control spawn size BUT I do think the breeder should understand that by doing that he or she is likely culling not only some undesirable fish but also some amazing fish.


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

+1 for above! That's a great response IMO! I agree 100%


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## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

I totally agree with 1f2f. Well said.


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## pdxBetta (Mar 15, 2011)

1fish2fish said:


> I'm fine with culling to control spawn size, especially if your still learning.


I personally think it's easier to raise 100 fry than to cull early and try to raise 10. There's more wiggle room, and less chance of overfeeding. But I also agree that culling early is better than taking on more than you can care for.



1fish2fish said:


> If you get a spawn and your not prepared for it.. I wholeheartedly agree with culling the entire spawn.


I agree with you, but you don't get a spawn by accident. It requires ignorance or negligence, and taking the effort to be responsible in the first place is a better option.



1fish2fish said:


> Breeding is harsh, not just in fish but in dogs, horses, and any other animal you want to breed.


Dog breeders cull undesirable puppies. White boxer puppies are often culled because nobody wants a white boxer. Compared to that, culling fish is a natural process.



1fish2fish said:


> Think of it this way.. there's been a discussion going on the IBC boards about the colors of yesteryear that we are no longer seeing... there are talks to try to get breeders to start bringing those colors back.


In 1989, I had some red DT Bettas that had no iridescence in them. I've maintained a casual interest in Bettas since then, but just recently decided to begin breeding again. I was surprised to learn that reds of this quality no longer exist.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

I did not vote on this. I can tell you that most people breeding bettas for the first time may only have 50% survivors due to natural selection or beginners mistakes. I read some bad advice one time to remove some of the eggs before they hatch if the spawn is abnormally large. My first spawn awhile back only resulted in a few surviving fry(all males) due to the fact that I seperated the pair after I counted 50 eggs and was trying to practice betta "birth control" . It may seem sick, unpleasant, or unethical but every fish breeder culls in some form or another. That is the truth.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I can definitely understand culling weak or deformed fish that we don't want to suffer. One thing I don't agree with is people breeding their fish, then not having the proper food for them or not having any food for them at all. I'd rather see them culled humanely than starve to death.


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## LolaQuigs (Mar 28, 2010)

Responsible dog breeders these days do _not_ cull healthy puppies. There is absolutely no need. Killing a healthy boxer pup just because it's white, or a healthy Rhodesian ridgeback just because it doesn't have the ridge, is absolutely inexcusable. Puppies that don't fit the breed standard and aren't up to show/breeding/performance standards are sold as pets, usually with a spay/neuter contract. Of course this isn't feasible with fish, as you can't spay/neuter a fish, but I still don't see the harm in selling or giving away aesthetically flawed fish as pets. No animal should be brought into the world only to be killed for not looking a certain way.


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## pdxBetta (Mar 15, 2011)

LolaQuigs said:


> Responsible dog breeders these days do _not_ cull healthy puppies. There is absolutely no need. Killing a healthy boxer pup just because it's white, or a healthy Rhodesian ridgeback just because it doesn't have the ridge, is absolutely inexcusable. Puppies that don't fit the breed standard and aren't up to show/breeding/performance standards are sold as pets, usually with a spay/neuter contract. Of course this isn't feasible with fish, as you can't spay/neuter a fish, but I still don't see the harm in selling or giving away aesthetically flawed fish as pets. No animal should be brought into the world only to be killed for not looking a certain way.


You're right. I didn't mean to make it sound like all dog breeders culled. I should have added a qualifier to my statement. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## LolaQuigs (Mar 28, 2010)

Unfortunately I'm sure there are still some dog breeders out there who do cull because it is easier and cheaper than finding homes for purebreds that don't fit breed standards. But responsible breeders take the time to ensure that all of their puppies are placed in good homes. So, you're right, surely there are breeders who cull puppies, but the best ones don't. Of course it is easier to find homes for 6 puppies than 100 fish, so I understand that the analogy of culling puppies and culling fish fry isn't adequate. But I stand by my opinion that pet quality animals of any species should be kept or sold as pets and not culled merely because of their appearance.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

I'd like to point out that the word "culling" does not always mean killing.


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## LolaQuigs (Mar 28, 2010)

Dragonlady said:


> I'd like to point out that the word "culling" does not always mean killing.


That's a good point. But based on the OPs first post, I was thinking of it strictly within that context.


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

Yes for this instance I did intend for that meaning. However it is good to point out that fact for other references


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## FuulieQ (Jan 10, 2010)

I wouldn't. If I make a choice to breed a fish, I feel that I should be prepared to care for the life that results. I wouldn't kill a heathy fish that simply didn't live up to me standards.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Think of it this way though... how do you go about finding homes for 100 fish? Sell some on AB (if they're good enough), give some away (if your lucky), give to petstores. What do you do if you don't have a reputable pet store around you? Is it better I give the fish I breed to my LFS who keeps their bettas in literally 1/3 cup of water or cull the ones I don't deem breeding worthy? Should I only spawn 1 spawn at a time and only do another spawn after I have gotten rid of all the fish I'm not keeping? How do you start a line that way?


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## FuulieQ (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm not sure on the details of breeding betta, but when I was breeding my ADFs I started off with at least 100 tadpoles, and by the time they began to grow legs I had 12. 

It doesn't make sense to me to breed fish if you can't find homes for the animals you produce. I'm not saying that you're a bad person for culling necessarily, but I wouldn't kill something because it's not pretty. It conflicts very sharply with my morals, even if it seems stupid to apply human morality to fish. I just don't have the guts to do something like that and feel okay about it afterwards.


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## pdxBetta (Mar 15, 2011)

I knew a breeder that had a pair of oscars to do the dirty work for him. Is that really any different than feeding them goldfish?


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