# We have some new fish I think?



## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

Hello, I am in Thailand with my family and they have just cleared some new land for fields. The trees are over 100 years old and the land was never used for farming. They have started to drain the fields and are working the ditch work now. Today my wife and I took a walk after our 30 minute motor cycle ride to the site. We noticed that the workers had not cleared a area and we asked why. They said it is a swamp and needs to be drained but had never been drained. So we went to go look. We noticed a patch of water plants and as a fish lover I had to go look. What I saw was like candy to a kid. Brown and clear water that looked 10 to 12 foot deep. After falling in I can say I think around 8 to 10 foot would be a good guess as I was not able to touch the bottom and my I phone is now calling nemo. So I had a very good look and we noticed no snakeheads and no water flood in or out. Land locked? Snails were softball size and snakes every place we stepped. So no pest aside issue. So like the kid I am, I can back home fast and got the nets and asked my brother to help me out. We had a rough time as there is no place to get good footing and the water undercuts the bank a few feet back. The first pull of the net was a lot of snail plant matter. I was getting ready to clear the net and noticed a lot of small fish dropping out. Dwarf Groumi, and what I think is a Betta that I have never seen. So we started to look closer and after a few net full started to get this betta only at the top few feet of water and under the weeds and not the side of the bank. We were able to get 30 fish and a lot of other fish. Most were common local fish.
We will try to post some pictures today and we will run the whole pond and see what is there. This pond is to be drained in two days so we will get what we can. I need some help with the species of betta. I is not the common green betta we have at our other field 8 km away. It is for sure in the betta smaragdina family but has two stripes from eye to tail and a round spot just under the top fin. Is light green almost purple body with either red fins or red with a black edge or white edge. the stripe goes through the eye and around the mouth. A few km away I get greens all the time and what we got today is not a green standard. We will be going to Chang Buri today to show a old time betta breeder. He saw a few pictures and was very very assertive that we bring some to him now and said hmmmmmmmm. He never says hmmmmmmmm unless it is something new to him. So we will post some pictures and we will also test the pounds for 2 km in a circle to see if they have the same type of betta. But this is virgin land and not ever been farmed fished or touched. By the size of the stupms and trees in the pond I would say this is for sure, We have all the data we can get from water to GPS and pictures are today. We have netted the water gate so nothing will get out till the pond is empty and drained. If this is a betta we will try to get it into the public hands and get all the info we can to save it. But in thailand the land is worth more than a small fish and some shrimp for pa-dek. So here is the info so far we will give out.
Northeast Thailand
Virgin Forest
Natural pond
non flooding pond with flowing ground water at one end. 
Lots of weed and tree and plant growth
10 to 12 foot deep undercut and no solid bottom
p.h. 6.0-6.4
temp 68* to 73*
5* h
O2 was lower than my chart at 8%
solids were over my chart at 60%
The temp was low for this time of year and the fish had a lot of fry. So this fish likes colder water. We did see a few nests but not sure if spider or betta? To deep under the weeds to check up close. Today we will hit a old spot we used to get green betta from 20 years back and I will see if I can see a match. But this is a betta for sure guys. If not a betta then it is in the same family. 


*Betta smaragdina ?
*


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

How exciting......you need to contact Gerald Miller in the US or Jesda Attavichit (Thailand) or Nonn Panitvong (Thailand) at the IBC species maintenance program or SMP...here is a link...

http://smp.ibcbettas.org/

Keep us updated on what you find out and would really love to see pics of not just the fish you find-but the area too....


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## LittleBettas (Jul 23, 2011)

^
Ditto, I would be VERY interested to see pictures!!!!


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

Ok, we will contact the above and get pictures posted today after we go to the other 8 locations to see the greens in all directions. We just came back from Sap's home and he said he has never seen this fish before but he said it is Betta. Today, when the fish settle down and they are in clean water we will start to try to get pictures. As all of you know if a betta is stressed out it will change to a darker color and not show what it is. So today we will see what we have. But Sap is at the pond all day today and will be collecting for us. His charge is half of the betta we get from the pond. He has a holding bin in his truck and will bag everything one by one. He has already started the meds and DE-parsite and DE-worm on the others. But he has never seen more than one of this betta before and was from a kid and it was to sick to save. All of the fish collected are doing very good. We have raised discus and angle fish and also betta before so not a issue with this fish. But we will post today and contact the above with all data. I have a few msg from a breeder in Chang buri that breeds greens and said he will be up today to see what the fish is also. But we feel it is a new betta from all the local feed back and the where did you get it questions. As of now we have 60 fish.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

That is so awesome.....We look forward to pics and please keep us updated on what you find out....this is really exciting......also, would love to see pic of the pond/habitat/location...etc.....

Keep us posted....


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## BettaMommy531rip (Dec 29, 2011)

Oooooh! New betta! (possibly)


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

Marking my place so I don't miss pics!!


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

http://photobucket.com/Thaibettas pictures'
http://photobucket.com/Thaibettas

We will try to get more today! No the fish are not for sale but if it is a new fish it will be given to breeders and we will keep the pond fenced in and protected.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Those shots make me think either Betta imbellis or something out of the coccina complex 

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/chefscire/Betta/?action=view&current=IMG_0248.jpg

They would undoubtedly be very striking fish when coloured up, just going by the colouration on the fins. 

I love wild bettas. Wish I lived somewhere they were in the wild like that!


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*Betta smaragdina?*



LittleBettaFish said:


> Those shots make me think either Betta imbellis or something out of the coccina complex
> 
> http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/chefscire/Betta/?action=view&current=IMG_0248.jpg
> 
> ...



Today, they get their first water change and the meds will be working by now. We should start to see some color as the pipazine and doxy and roto start working. they are already eating flakes today and we do not see a issue with any loss. We breed a lot of fish here and can deal with wild stuff fairly safe but we are still keeping them at a location away from our culture stuff till the meds are done. Today we will post some pictures after the water change and we hope all of you can give us a idea what we have in this pond. If it is a new betta we will get it to public breeders ASAP. We will also keep the wild stock in its home and untouched and guarded.


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## Leeniex (Aug 14, 2011)

Very interesting, and that farm looks beautiful! Thanks for the pictures.


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

Leeniex said:


> Very interesting, and that farm looks beautiful! Thanks for the pictures.



Thank you! We have around 100 r of sugar cane, rice, bamboo, rubber, mang, and now we have snakeheads for local sale. Most people buy homes we buy the land around us so all land in a 2km area is same family. So we do things our way and we are very much Buddhist. We do not do much with out the OK from the local monks. But I fancy tropical fish. The harder to keep the more I try. But betta are a local thing here in Isaan. They still fight the fish, my wife's father is very good at getting wild bettas and seems to know all the spots to look. In a hour he can get 20 or 30 fish and spot 5 nests or more. When it comes to wild betta he is the best I have ever seen. But he is a old betta fighter guy and knows all the spots and who to ask. They still fight betta in our village and we get asked a lot buy the local kids for fish. We do what we can for them and we ask for the fish back. We get 99.9% of the fish back in same as they left condition. I edited this to say that if it was not for the fighting of betta in thailand you would not still have a lot of wild betta. By fighting the fish they protect the ponds and place where the fish is found so they can get more fish the next year. This in turn saves the fish. To tell them to not fight the fish would make the pond more vaule as a snakehead food producer or a extra hand full of rice or that extra hand full of veggies. But because thay are still prized they are kept alive and cared for in the wild. They never fight to kill the fish and 99% of the time return the fish to the same place. Then return the next year and do the same some times with the same fish for 2 years. Some times we take friends to see betta fights to change there minds about the sport. Most of the time it is disappointing to them to see how wrong they are about the sport. Some fights last only seconds and the fish never fight. If the fish runs then it is over. No fish has ever died at any fighting I have seen. I say never. To kill a fish is so much bad luck no one will let it happen. Most judges are village elders and there family name is at stake. To let a fish die ends there say at village meetings. But if you need to know more or need the truth just ask, yes they still fight bettas here and they still use the rules from 200 years ago. No KILLING is allowed>.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Awesome pics....thank you so much.....

We don't promote fish fighting on our forum....but I do understand and respect you and your culture.....and that is what I heard as well on the fighting of Bettas in your culture...that rarely if ever one is killed or dies and are very well taken care of with a great deal of respect and responsibility.


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*Thank you for understanding!*



Oldfishlady said:


> Awesome pics....thank you so much.....
> 
> We don't promote fish fighting on our forum....but I do understand and respect you and your culture.....and that is what I heard as well on the fighting of Bettas in your culture...that rarely if ever one is killed or dies and are very well taken care of with a great deal of respect and responsibility.



Thank you for understanding that I do not condone the fighting of anything and do not like it. I am glad to see that some people here have great knowledge and understand Thailand thinking. Some of the best betta's I have ever seen came from around here. Every one thinks that spotted betta's are new? We have been culling them for 10 years and not breeding them. Solid body color only for Thailand sales. As far as white or black not very popular either and lon fins are not good sellers. hmpk and pk are mostly sold here. But in Bangkok they sell every color under the sun......
We will post some more pictures today after we get them loged in and give them a # and check a slide under a microscope to see if all is OK. If OK, we will bottle them for holding till they feed and then move them to a holding tank of 350 gallons. We will be making a holding system for local stock. We know of 4 kinds. Blue, red, green, and now orange and black. The new fish have a tail spot.


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

As you can see the fish in pond 2 are not the same as the local stuff. We collected 20 from around the pond 2 location and 50 from local locations and not one local fish was same. Some fish from pond 2 have black fins and all have a tail spot that is not stress related. Is this fish something you guys have seen before.


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## ScarlettAngel (May 30, 2011)

Wow, this is so interesting to read. Please keep the info and pictures coming. It's also fascinating to see and hear how other cultures/countries live. So different to U.K.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HatsuneMiku (Jul 29, 2011)

that bee looking one is amazing !! .. i didn't know light colored bettas got dark stress lines? or is that not stress lines and is it's actual coloring?


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*Thank you.*



ScarlettAngel said:


> Wow, this is so interesting to read. Please keep the info and pictures coming. It's also fascinating to see and hear how other cultures/countries live. So different to U.K.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I am from USA and my wife is from a farming community in Isaan. We are located in the northeast of thailand by Lao. Because our family has so much land we have access to a lot of ponds and we just now have started to collect wild betta to add to our breeding line of HMPK. We keep a few for local stuff and sell 99% to a whole sale in Bangkok that sells to all of the world. But we always have access to local betta fish and some other fish.


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*No the fish are now 3 days in holding.*



HatsuneMiku said:


> that bee looking one is amazing !! .. i didn't know light colored bettas got dark stress lines? or is that not stress lines and is it's actual coloring?



The fish are now 3 days in holding so what color they have is what they will have from now on as all are adults. Today we will # each one from pond 2 and we will post pictures as we get the fish checked under the microscope for issues.
We have a local breeder in Bangkok looking at them and thinks they are not the same as the other local fish.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

It almost looks like the third picture along of a Betta smaragdina 

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Betta&species=smaragdina&id=18

Hope you can get these guys identified soon. Half the wild species look very alike, particularly when stressed. I see my livida and tussyae everyday and it still takes me a minute to pick out who is who in the tank.


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## bettasusa (Nov 1, 2011)

Amazing thread, interesting read! Keep the photos of the bettas and Thailand coming please. Thanks


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*So now the fish are checking out OK!*

This is one of the fish that checked out good to go. Slide looked good and meds are stopped. We will check one last time in one week but most of the time we get everything in the first run. There is not to much we can not cure. But most of the wild fish actually check out better than tank raised stuff. They are very very hardy fish. They eat the same day and will become ready for jars in one or two days from wild. By day 5 or 10 the males will be producing nests and looking out the jar for Love! 
OK, back to the fish......This is #17 and as you can see it is void of much color and no stress bars are showing and the fish is eating well. 









This is fish #4 and you can see that it has some bars but still not showing any color but red and orange. Again the black spot on the tail. smaragdina is void of this spot on all locations we collected. 









This is fish # 16 and is eating and is female. She was collected with male #17 in a breeding trap at pond 2. The trap is a 4 inch bamboo log with a water lily planted in it and a open end that hangs in the water just below the lily. If there is a betta ready to spawn with in 5 feet it will be in the tube the next day. Just as this was. Notice no color againa and the bars and tail spot.









OK this is #13 and again void of all color.. this is female and colected with male #14 pond 2. 









This is # 18 he is very large and was collected from the pond the first day I was there. He was collected with a dip net and not a trap.
Again tail spot and no color but orange and black. He is a jumper and we had to net the top of his jar to keep him in and he still bites the net above his jar. We will not breed him as he seems to be a fighter and not a lover...My wife has nicked named him rocket.


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

So here is a update on the fish. We pulled all the flood records for the last 40 years and we know for a fact that pond 2 has never had flow into it from out side. We as this is on high ground the water can flow out during rain and flood out not in. It can get several feet of water and still not overflow. We have pulled a few hundred samples now from a 2k circle and have not matched the fish yet. We will now pair up a few that are making some good nest with a few of our whites so we can see what they produce. Anything we put with our dd whites will give us a 50% mix we should get a ggod idea of the background of the fish. We will also keep 4 or 5 pairs and have moved 30 pair to local breeders and the pond will be kept as is. We will keep it till we see what we have. We are getting into breeding season now and gearing up for summer sales. We have a lot of extra pairs to play with and will keep this new betta in our line. We know that it has a lot or red and black in it so we will cross with some whites and some ddblack and a few left fielders we have that are black and white and orange and black. We also are working on a purple that my wife said she is going to cross out. The purple did not sell good this year. But we think this fish is a wild blue that has lost most of the color from line breeding. This fish was very isolated and we are waiting for DNA to show if it is a local green or a blue from some other river a few km away. But this is not a normal local betta and they are some very very nasty betta. One jumped the jar and got into our sell tank and really did a number by day time. He had all 40 fish 2 times his size backed into the back of the 200 gallon tank. His range was around 4 feet. Amazing! Let us know if you have some ideas on what to cross this out to. We can get pictures of what ever color you think might be nice to get wild dose. We have every color you can think of. Some you might not get in other countries. LEt us know....


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## cjayBetta (Jan 18, 2011)

This is so interesting... I wish i lived there and could just go pluck wild betta's out of a pond


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*We wish it was more easy also *

It is not very easy. Wild bettas are fast and smart when compaired to pellet few farm raised fish. If they see a shadow they are gone and you will not get them. For every 2 fish we get there are 20 we miss. Cobra and spiders and ect all that can kill you before the doctor visit. But, it is a good hobby and keeps me out of issues. We have only hmpk and pk and wild stuff. My wife has a lot of food fish and this is just a local hobby for us as betta AAA only bring 10 baht or so at market or around 35 usa cent. Most of the time it is 3 for 1.00 usd. And this is for grade AAA for grade b and c it is less. We ship grade b and c to usa mostly and grade AAA.


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*Some cool info i learned today. But I hope it stops....*

Epimedium sagittatum
120gr/Kg
Tribulus Terrestris
90gr/Kg
Chlorella ptotothecoides
180gr/Kg
Spirulina platensis
100gr/Kg
Haematococcus pluvialis
170gr/Kg
Euchema cottonii
190gr/Kg
Saccharomyces cerevisiae
40gr/Kg
Rice bran
110gr/Kg
Mash Size
<0.2mm

94% male sex if fed for 48 days and is all natural. I saw this in use at a breeder in Thaialnad today when we tood some fish to BKK and we talked about hormones and betta's this guy bragged on how he can produce 90%males every time and 99% with hormones. The above was added to pellet and micro diets and few to bb brine.

This is the dose for non organic and was used to get around 98 to 99 % males and very very large males in 3 or 4 months. 
The china issue was with the use of 17a-methyltestosterone (MT), which was incorporated into a starter fish feed at 600 mg MT/kg feed and not the normal dose of 60 mg/kg in betta's I hear that 90mg/kg of trout chow is used. We use from chow and skip all hormones as we are a certified organic farm. The above recipe can be added to your normal food. I would bet 60% of betta's that come from the huge breeders are hormone enhanced males that should have been born a female. They will have small egg production, bad fins and not produce the color you are thinking you will get. I have seen 5 inch betta fish now. I am sure this will be the next fad. Just like the flower horn was. What a mess that is. Most of the fish farmed for food are are sex reversed where hormones were used in producing male monosex tilapia. How else can they get it from egg to table in 4 months. Why do you think tropical fish are not the same and come from other countries. We can use stuff that you can not. We can produce them fast and cheap. I say we because my brother in law feeds a lot of hormones to his snakeheads to get them to table fast. They are like mad dogs and I would not like to fall in a pond while they are feeding. We hear story after story of the stupid farmers kids that went swimming and never came back. But this is about betta's we will be posting some pictures this week of our new fish and better wild pictures also. Again please do not contact us for sales. We do not sell to public. If we have some fish that are wild and you need them for breeding let us know and we will work to get you wild stock from thailand. You must be a import agent and the fish are free of charge. We do not sell wild fish and thing they should be saved when possible. We can guarantee that Wild green and wild blue are safe for now in 12 locations. All have snakehead traps and betta breeding tubes. We do fish counts every year at all locations.


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## SpookyTooth (Dec 23, 2011)

This is an absolutely fascinating topic! Thank you for sharing all this information with us, toddscire. I look forward to reading more. Best of luck with your breeding efforts!


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Any update on these???? photos gone


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## toddscire (Jan 22, 2012)

*Yes we keep the fish in a protected area of our farm in Thailand!*



Coppermoon said:


> Any update on these???? photos gone


We keep the wild fish in a land locked swamp in our farm in Thailand. They are in the north east of thailand. We have put up a fence and have set this aside as we have some wild orchids there also. This area was not cleared in the war and we will leave it untouched. We check it every year. We decided to keep it as we have for over 100 years. Untouched. The land will stay in our family for all time. This spot is well protected.


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