# Speaking of VT's...



## Basement Bettas

I know.. I griped about them here in the show section. But because of the response and amount of people that have an interest in the VT.. I want to ask a few questions.

1/ For those that adore the VT... are you an IBC member?

2/ As a breeder of VT's, would you breed VT's to the current IBC standards colors and perfect them as we do in the other tail types? Current colors are:
Red
Black
Iridescents - blue, green and steel
Yellow
Orange
pastel
Marble
Grizzle
Butterfly
Multi
Metallic

[may be a few more.. standards not handy and these just come to mind]

3/ Would you join the IBC and regularly send fish to shows?

Fish bought at a pet shop could not be entered.. but their offspring you bred could be entered.

Just trying to get a feel for interest and commitment level..


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## Myates

You already know my thoughts! Bring on the VTs!

2yr membership currently for IBC, would send to shows, and would breed to the IBC standard that is chosen.


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## LittleBettaFish

We can show VT bettas here in Australia, which I've always liked. This is something that has been taken from one of the bigger betta shows here.



> E1. Color or Form Variations - (eg DT Plakat, DT CT, Crown plakat, Dumbo, Veiltail etc)
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> h/ All bettas excluding the Veiltail class will be judged in accordance with IBC judging criteria. Veiltail class will be judged using the Bettas4All Veiltail Show Standard


Even though I am not American, I think you would have quite a lot of interest if VT classes were offered. They seem to be quite popular here.


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## MrVampire181

IBC member (unless I need to renew), absolutely interested in breeding VT for the color classes and if I could I would certainly send VTs to shows. 

I've been thinking about using my huge amount of fish tanks just sitting there empty to breed some VTs in new forms. I have the time and most of the equipment so why not.


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## Bluewind

I love VTs! Sad to say I'm not a member and I hope to eventually breed pet quality VTs, not show, but I really look forward to seeing the amazing VTs people come up with for show! Woot! :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Basement Bettas

LittleBettaFish said:


> We can show VT bettas here in Australia, which I've always liked. This is something that has been taken from one of the bigger betta shows here.
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> Even though I am not American, I think you would have quite a lot of interest if VT classes were offered. They seem to be quite popular here.


That is a form standard. Is there enough interest to breed the more "pure" colors rather than just two fish...?


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## Basement Bettas

How do ya'll feel about the Bettas4All Veiltail Show Standard? Is it attainable and realistic? Is that how you want your VT's to look?


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## MrVampire181

I love the Bettas4all standard personally. The few VTs I have spawned I looked for fish to fit that standard.


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## Maddybelle

I'm joining the IBC next month. Yay birthday present! 
I'd love to be able to show VTs. I don't think they're any less beautiful than other tail types, and I think that the Bettas4all standard is very workable. I've seen VTs that conform quite closely to that standard, though they aren't easy to find, LOL. I tend to prefer the VTs with wide tail bases, as described in the Bettas4all standard. As for color, yes, I would most definitely breed towards the IBC color standards, just as I do with my HMs.


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## Myates

Mmm... dark red VTs.. original cambodian style VTs.. yes I am so going to go crazy if you get it. You have my vote! (for more reasons than this lol.. but this is the icing on the cake!)


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## MrVampire181

Nothing more majestic than a nice red or cambodian VT amle in a nice tank in my opinion


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## GhostFeather

I am a member,I think VTs should have a place at the shows,don't know if I would breed them.
I might,not sure,but I think others should have a chance at it.
Bill


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## MoonShadow

4 year IBC member here, never showed but plan to hopefully within the next year. Here is one of the VTs I got from Thailand yesterday, I ended up buying 2 pairs from kit, and will probably get a third pair next month! 










As for colors, Im a fan of marbles and solid blue, steel and turquoise.


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## Myates

I saw the ones you got that you posted in FB.. I LOVE them both, these would be fun to recreate!


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## inareverie85

The VT bandwagon would be fun to jump on. But since I have my hands full with HMs, I'd do it IF and only IF the IBC would recognize it as a showable fish.


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## chardzard

some nice info here i have out cross a few VT i would like to see wat an IBC type VT would look like any 1 have any that they can post


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## Basement Bettas

MoonShadow said:


> 4 year IBC member here, never showed but plan to hopefully within the next year. Here is one of the VTs I got from Thailand yesterday, I ended up buying 2 pairs from kit, and will probably get a third pair next month!
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You could work this fish to a nice bicolor.. he is neat.


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## chardzard

yea he is sweet


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## Skyewillow

I have mostly veils, and I've seen some interesting colors on them. I'm not sure why they're no longer on the showable list (not an IBC member) but unless breeders step up and do something about it, the veils are going to go completely downhill.

Conservation of a breed!


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## Maddybelle

I have an orange veil boy and a blue grizzle veil boy. They're both full of personality! =) 

My LFS has some great looking marble dragon VT boys right now. Might have to pick one up Tuesday when I pick up my blue HM girl I ordered.


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## Basement Bettas

Skyewillow said:


> I have mostly veils, and I've seen some interesting colors on them. I'm not sure why they're no longer on the showable list (not an IBC member) but unless breeders step up and do something about it, the veils are going to go completely downhill.
> 
> Conservation of a breed!


The VT's, until recently, showed more of the old rich colors many of us grew up with on bettas. The current trend to crazy patterned fish has degraded the color in bettas, HM's especially, a bit. We can get that color where it is not lost easier in the VT. And historically... as a breeder and an organization I think we have a responsibility to look at the VT and preserve it. We have elections in the IBC and I am up for president. I think we need to address the VT and see what can be done about getting people serious about breeding nice ones.


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## LadyVictorian

1. Going to be joining IBC soonish before I start breeding HMPK and HM

Personally I love the HMPK and HM's but if IBC came up with great standards on VT's that I really liked and I found them beautiful like I do the PK, HMPK, and HM's then I would breed, if I didn't like the standards then likely won't sink the time into it. I'm such a HM and PK person. 

2. Would love to breed marbles and butterfly but...gah what would butterfly look like on a vt  would it even look good? Solid whites and blacks would be cool too. I just feel a black vt betta would look nice. Steel blues would be cool as well, I also though they are already common I like the solid reds. My male I own in a solid red and I think he's beautiful. I like when vt's tails are not too absurdly long because when they are shorter they look better swimming but something tells me IBC would want them long and draping. When they are shorter they tend to look more flag like. I love the tail being thick at the base as well and rounded at the end rather than tapering off like some petstores have been showing up lately. I also like when the dorsal is shorter and doesn't drop over to one side. If it could look more like hm or det's dorsal it would also be nice. xD I guess I already have my personal standard of what a vt should look like. They just look better flaring and swimming like that and I think the fish should make people say WOW when they flare like the HM, Det, and PK's do. If we want the VT's to make it they have to get the same response. 

3. I'll be honest, my goal is next year to start showing HM and HMPK fish...not sure about vt. Unless IBC add's them then you can't show them aside from shipping them to other countries and I'm not going to do that.


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## Skyewillow

VT Butterflies

































Not as striking as a HM butterfly, but definitely not garbage by any means.

I think the VT has been massively underplayed, and like I said before, most of my bettas have ever been veils, because I'm just not a fan of crowns (which are also locally available), and double tails make my back hurt just looking at them.

Also, some of these color trends are just too... ugh. Sure, I like kois, and I have a VT koi, but I keep scouring the internet for a splendens that looks like the ones the Cambodians first scooped out of the paddies. A "Wild-phase" if you will. It's our job as fanciers to make sure the breeders don't leave anyone behind. I'd like to see better VT's than the spoon-faced, hunchbacked grocery store fish.

Heck, I may even take up their cause on that!


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## LadyVictorian

Have to admit vt' butterfly's are very pretty.










Also when I think of what the tails should look like this is what I picture. Also the dorsal sort of shorter look but that dorsal looks a bit messy to me, perhaps perfecting it more.


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## Basement Bettas

LadyVictorian said:


> 1. Going to be joining IBC soonish before I start breeding HMPK and HM
> 
> Personally I love the HMPK and HM's but if IBC came up with great standards on VT's that I really liked and I found them beautiful like I do the PK, HMPK, and HM's then I would breed, if I didn't like the standards then likely won't sink the time into it. I'm such a HM and PK person.
> 
> 2. Would love to breed marbles and butterfly but...gah what would butterfly look like on a vt  would it even look good? Solid whites and blacks would be cool too. I just feel a black vt betta would look nice. Steel blues would be cool as well, I also though they are already common I like the solid reds. My male I own in a solid red and I think he's beautiful. I like when vt's tails are not too absurdly long because when they are shorter they look better swimming but something tells me IBC would want them long and draping. When they are shorter they tend to look more flag like. I love the tail being thick at the base as well and rounded at the end rather than tapering off like some petstores have been showing up lately. I also like when the dorsal is shorter and doesn't drop over to one side. If it could look more like hm or det's dorsal it would also be nice. xD I guess I already have my personal standard of what a vt should look like. They just look better flaring and swimming like that and I think the fish should make people say WOW when they flare like the HM, Det, and PK's do. If we want the VT's to make it they have to get the same response.
> 
> 3. I'll be honest, my goal is next year to start showing HM and HMPK fish...not sure about vt. Unless IBC add's them then you can't show them aside from shipping them to other countries and I'm not going to do that.


The thought if a BF VT is interesting.. lol. Need to trace off that standard and do some coloring..  

And breeding the VT's would have to start like any other "new" class.. they would need to be shown in the variations at this point. If you come across any nice solid VT's it might be worth trying breed them for good color now and send a few to some shows. I think the interest is there FOR the VT.. just need to take the proper steps to make it happen.


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## Basement Bettas

LadyVictorian said:


> Have to admit vt' butterfly's are very pretty.
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> Also when I think of what the tails should look like this is what I picture. Also the dorsal sort of shorter look but that dorsal looks a bit messy to me, perhaps perfecting it more.


This one is pretty solid.. got some red wash but could get this in a few generations to a good solid blue line. That would be awesome!


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## Basement Bettas

Skyewillow said:


> VT Butterflies
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> Not as striking as a HM butterfly, but definitely not garbage by any means.
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> I think the VT has been massively underplayed, and like I said before, most of my bettas have ever been veils, because I'm just not a fan of crowns (which are also locally available), and double tails make my back hurt just looking at them.
> 
> Also, some of these color trends are just too... ugh. Sure, I like kois, and I have a VT koi, but I keep scouring the internet for a splendens that looks like the ones the Cambodians first scooped out of the paddies. A "Wild-phase" if you will. It's our job as fanciers to make sure the breeders don't leave anyone behind. I'd like to see better VT's than the spoon-faced, hunchbacked grocery store fish.
> 
> Heck, I may even take up their cause on that!


LOVE that red!! You dont see that color.. that rich red often any more. And look how bright that blue is. It is time we looked at preserving the VT and allow them to be more.


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## LadyVictorian

I have a solid red vt male but he's a bit dark and also I think he's half giant as he is pretty close (without tail) to 3 inches. He also has a bad head and mouth :/, the rest of him looks nice, he's the only vt in years I have liked.


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## Skyewillow

Sometimes the veils just have bad bodies. Which really bugs me.

I'm really thinking I could join the cause for the VT's.


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## Maddybelle

My Petco has some very nice VTs, even saw a few great orange girls. Unfortunately I'm probably going to lose my orange vt boy. =( But I have a blue grizzle VT boy that has finnage shaped very much like the the 2nd and 3rd ones Skyewillow posted. Maybe if I breed him to either my cellophane HM girl or the blue HM girl I have coming on Tuesday, the fry will have even better finnage.

I'm still a little unclear as to how the Variations class works: is it for the types that don't have their own IBC standard yet, like orchids and VTs? And what is the process for the IBC to draw up and pass a new standard?


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## Skyewillow

Does anyone have a link to the IBC website? I'd like to look into membership, even though I'm not really planning to show. IF they nail down a standard for Veils, I may go into breeding them at some point.


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## LadyVictorian

I was wondering about that, breeding to HM females to perhaps get nicer form and tail on vt's. Seem like a good place to start knocking out all the kinks in the vt line?


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## dramaqueen

You don't have to be a breeder to join the IBC.


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## chardzard

wat is require to join the IBC any ideas if there a link where 1 can apply to them?


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## dramaqueen

I hope this link works. International Betta Congress - ibcbettas.org


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## Myates

The site isn't much now, but with the elections coming up one of the runners for President has a lot of great ideas to improve the site along with information and help.. for now it's good, but most of the information, etc you get in emails and access to different groups once you join.


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## Skyewillow

dramaqueen said:


> I hope this link works. International Betta Congress - ibcbettas.org


it works! 

I'm seriously considering signing us up for the family membership. Especially if I hope to get into breeding.


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## MrVampire181

VTs aren't showable because they aren't symmetrical. In case anyone was still looking for that answer. 

My membership to the IBC is up. Will renew next season if I show. 

And LadyVictorian, I'm afraid it doesn't work that way entirely. VTs will have to be crossed for color but the form may never get on track but since there's no IBC standard we don't have much to work with unless people are showing with bettas4all in Europe.


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## Basement Bettas

LadyVictorian said:


> I was wondering about that, breeding to HM females to perhaps get nicer form and tail on vt's. Seem like a good place to start knocking out all the kinks in the vt line?


Might have to watch the traditional VT tail is not lost in a cross to HM. And I have seen VT tails that come to a point and others more boxed off .. or banged if you have a horse back ground. Would have to figure out a reasonable standard..


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## LadyVictorian

I like the examples a ways back with the butterflies and the purple that were posted, that nice tail thick at the base and rounded at the ends. A shorter dorsal than most petshops but when they flare it's more dramatic however still longer than say a HM or DeT. Perhaps breed for medium length of tail too, not too short that it's going back to PK roots but not so long it's draping far behind the fish either. Still get the good vt shape and everything just a more refined form from what the petshops are spitting out which isn't much really.


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## Maddybelle

I do really like the Bettas4all standard, and I think that that would be a reasonable place to breed toward. I prefer, and I think a lot of folks agree with me, a VT with a wider caudal than what you see on most pet shop fish. I have a grizzle boy with very nice form, IMO, unfortunately he has chronic bloat. Doesn't seem to bother him, but I'd be wary of breeding him.


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## Skyewillow

I also have to agree, not a fan of super droopy, pointy tails. I like the full and rounded tips.


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## Dragonlady

If enough breeders show veiltails bred by themselves in the variations category, I am certain that the IBC would be more likely to consider a set of different standards to help restore the original IBC show betta forms and colors. After all, the VT betta was the original IBC betta. ;-)


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## Myates

I really want to do a red VT line - blood red coloring.. also cambodian VTs - working on a black cambodian HM/HMPK line (pale body, black fins), and hopefully see about bringing that over into a VT line as well.

But, that is if Basement Bettas gets the IBC president position.. if VTs aren't brought back into IBC shows.. then there is no point as too many people have such negative feelings towards VTs in saying they are sickly, etc.. no one will buy them as readily. But if we can bring out some wonderful VTs and prove they are just as healthy and pretty as all the rest.. then I would breed them in a heartbeat.


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## dramaqueen

A cambo with black fins would be gorgeous!


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## LadyVictorian

Hmmm, been looking at Hollow and thinking if I ever bred show quality vt's I would start with him but not sure. He has serious fin rot and ammonia burn damage so his fins haven't come all the way back in but here's a picture of him as they are now.


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## Basement Bettas

He looks like he has some HM in him as he is more delta than traditional VT. That standard has a more arched and droopy tail and more angular lines. Your fish has more balance often found in the HM's. He is a neat fish and does not look like he has much damage at all. You are doing a great job with him if he has fin rot.


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## Myates

That is what I thought when I saw him.. definitely not a VT.. possibly a mix in the line somewhere. I do love the blue in his red fins


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## LadyVictorian

I was actually told by the original owner he is half giant and half vt. The guy bred him himself from petsmart, petco, and walmart fish. Hollow is a pretty large fish though does not qualify as a giant himself as he is not near close to 3 inches.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Once I breed my fish for the first couple of times, I plan to join IBC. I would LOVE VTs to be in, mainly because I want one of my lines to be DTVT. Would be multi-color misc as of right now...Have a gorgeous pair right now (have male in tank next to me, but female is comming soon).

I'm beginning to get pretty excited that one of my future lines might actually be showable. ^_^


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## Hadoken Kitty

And, ofcourse, I will be showing.


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## Skyewillow

1/ For those that adore the VT... are you an IBC member? *Not yet, planning on it though.*

2/ As a breeder of VT's, would you breed VT's to the current IBC standards colors and perfect them as we do in the other tail types? Current colors are:
Red
Black
Iridescents - blue, green and steel
Yellow
Orange
pastel
Marble
Grizzle
Butterfly
Multi
Metallic

[may be a few more.. standards not handy and these just come to mind]

*I'm more than willing to brush up on the definitions of those colors and the overall standards*

3/ Would you join the IBC and regularly send fish to shows? *I need to know more about the process of showing fish, but definitely interested.*

I'm pretty excited that there's more talk about bringing them back, it's a project I'd LOVE to work on with my fish!


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## trilobite

It would be good to have vt in shows. If vt breeders have an actual goal to breed towards and get rewarded for it then I think we could expect the overall quality of vt to increase dramatically. 
I really like the Bettas4all standards for vt.
Imagine a dt geno vt. Massive pointy dorsal to match a massive pointy anal and a tail the same shape too :shock: Id buy one


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## Hadoken Kitty

trilobite said:


> It would be good to have vt in shows. If vt breeders have an actual goal to breed towards and get rewarded for it then I think we could expect the overall quality of vt to increase dramatically.
> I really like the Bettas4all standards for vt.
> Imagine a dt geno vt. Massive pointy dorsal to match a massive pointy anal and a tail the same shape too :shock: Id buy one


I'm going to be working on this exact thing. I said I was basing it off of a type of goldfish, lol. We've been discussing it in this thread. :3

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=128652


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## trilobite

Ooh that sounds real nice! Thats the kind of thing vts need, a bit of direction in their breeding.
The best colour I've ever seen was on a humble vt in a pet store, he was a perfect clean red with not blue irid at all


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## Hadoken Kitty

I was going to breed an HM line, but this DTVT line sounds so intriguing I might put the first line off until I can get started on this one. :3


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## Maddybelle

If I wasn't so tied up with my orange HMs, Blue marble HMS, and soon white CTs, I'd start working on black and pastel VTs. Hmmm, I guess I could use my blue-based HM boys and cross them to a clean blue VT girl and work towards pastel from there...


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## Option

Skyewillow said:


> 3/ Would you join the IBC and regularly send fish to shows? *I need to know more about the process of showing fish, but definitely interested.*


I'm on the same boat here. Would be interested in competing (potentially) but want to know more about the process. As is, I'm already reluctant to ship my fish purchases on a plane but I guess traveling with your fish is an obvious requirement correct?


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