# Are they breedable? Pic heavy



## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

I want to get into breeding bettas, but am still learning what I need to know. I have several (22) adult bettas already, but I am unsure which might be worth breeding. I am not interesting is showing bettas myself, but would like the ones I offer to be of a quality where other breeds and those that do show bettas might be interested. Would you please give me your opinion on breeding with the bettas I have now. If I need to all of these will stay pets, or possible find other home, and I will buy a breeding pair to start with. I have not figured out how to get my text my the picture I am referring too, so the descriptions and notes here are in order of the pictures below.


This is not a picture I took; I adopted this handsome guy, Patrick, from MoonShadow. He’s been part of my family since yesterday and while he’s getting used to his surrounding it upsets him whenever I get too close to try and get a picture.
Mani here does not like to flare. There’s a few of my boys that is very hard to capture while flaring. I was told before that it would probably be best not to breed Mani because his body is to short and could lead to spinal problems.
My other DT is Ra. Not sure on his good or bad points, but I’d love to be able to find a pretty lady betta to be able to breed him with.
Thor here is my only HM. I love these tail types. If I had to narrow it down I think I would like to work with HMs and VTs. It’s difficult to see all his coloring in this pic, but I was thinking of breeding him with a nice MG girl if I could find one.
This is Pan, aka Pandora. He was bought as a female and spent some time in my sorority, now he rules a 10 gallon tank. His body length is 2.5” and I was told that mean he’s at least half giant. If that is accurate and both Pan & the 2nd lady (who is female) that I bought are breedable I might start with this pair.
Now it’s on to my VTs. The first here is my daughter’s boy, Darling. As with a lot of pictures this does absolutely nothing to show all his wonderful color, but it’s the only one I have of him flaring. I don’t know if personalities breed into fish like they can cat & dogs, but if they do this is one sweet boy, probably one of our most passive males.
Luv here is another one of my daughter’s boys. We’ve had him the longest of all our bettas. I did do 1 spawning before finding this site and knowing everything I needed to know about genetics and all that. I have 20 fry month old fry, and Luv is the daddy.
This is actually the only VT male I own, Mr. Fish. He’s the one that started my bettas craziness and the one that got me into wanting to breed them. Not much more to say about him. I don’t know if he has any good points for breeding or anything that would make it better not to breed him.
I don’t know if this picture of Prometheus (orange VT) is good enough to judge him by or not. Prometheus and Ra can’t get enough of each other. If they see the smallest crack between their tanks where they can see into the other tank they are glued there flaring at each other. Prometheus is my daughters newest betta. (These are not all my boys, but the only one I have decent pictures of so far)
 
Now onto my current ladies. I don’t have many of them yet, but here’s who we do have.


First is Amor. Amor is a pretty, dark purple VT (I’ve never seen red or blue, just a deep purple) and mother to the fry I have
This lady is still currently nameless. I’ve had her a couple weeks, so I need to get busy and find her a name. This is the female I would breed with Pan from above. Her body is just slightly shorter than his.
One of my newest additons (in fact the only 1 of 4 females I brought home that wasn’t sick) She hasn’t shown her colors yet, but if she even glimpses a male she will start displaying egg bands. Her name is Brigid.
Not a very good picture of my sweet Freya at all, she got beat up a bit in the sorority and is very shy, so it’s hard to get her in a pic. Normally she doesn’t appear purple. She’s iridescent, but most often shows a teal color. Sometimes blue, sometimes green, and as seen here occasionally purple. Now that she’s out of the sorority she’s healing up nicely.
This green CT girl is another one of the last females I picked up and being treated for Velvet atm
Hestia didn’t seem sick at all when I brought her home, but within a couple days she was laying around with her fins clamped tight. I’m treating her for a very mild case of Velvet as well. She might work well with Patrick.
This little red VT is Lofin. She was a tiny things when I brought her home but is now almost as big as Amor and she thinks she rules the roost. I love her bright red color and was playing with the idea of breeding her with either Mr. Fish or possible Patrick.
Not a very good picture at all, but this is Sol. I thought she might make some pretty VT babies with Prometheus.
 


If I can get pictures of my missing boys I will post them later. Thank you for taking the time to read this post and offer any feedback you might have. If I can find out who I have that can be breed I can find out what I need to find as well.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

So many options :-D

I really like the 2nd dt male, his toplines nice and smooth, balanced fins and his bodies not too short. 
Also the second girl is plakat so she could be used with your pk guy which would give you pk. They will all be traditional pk though which is the short finned equivalent of vt. 
Or you could use her with your 2nd dt boy and get dome dtpk in F2. F1 will probably give you all longfin vt/delta/roundtail with broad dorsals. 
Or try use the hm guy to pk girl and by f3 you should see some hmpk. f2 will bring you some pk back, most of which will reach 180 but their tails are likely to still be quite round so cant be classed as true hmpk.

You could use the 4th female, the blue one with your hm, it looks like shes got redloss but it might just be the lighting. Male looks hass red loss/marble by the looks of it too. Or use the little green girl with velvet when she gets better, I really like her colour. Would be nice to see that colour in HM

Prometheus is a nice fish, cant tell much about him from the pic but Id use him with the red vt girl to try and maintain his colour, it might take at least F2 to get orange back.

Or use 4th girl to the blue vt (if she does actually have redloss) so she can sap out the rest of his red. Would be nice to get some solid blue vts with no red wash.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

My pk girl is about twice the size of almost all my males, except the pk male. But the DT you mentioned breeding her with seems rather young, so maybe one of her offspring would work for that.

The 4th girl, Freya, has never shown me any red. That is a really bad pic of her. I've added on I found here, still not the best, but it shows her coloring a lot better. I don't know how she ended up looking purple in that pic. The blue male (Luv I think) you talked about breeding her with is already a daddy, he's a bit older (we've had him almost a year), but he hasn't lost any spunk. His color is changing, mostly there on his anal fin where you see the white, with a couple other white spots showing up elsewhere. Would this be red loss? I think I might go with that pair out of your suggestions as I'm not sure how long Luv will be able to continue breeding.

Sadly I lost the green girl today. I was really hoping to save her, but the other two that were sick show no signs of velvet, although I'm going to continue treatment for another couple days.

I was thinking Prometheus, the orange boy, would do best with the orange girl. You think the red VT would produce better results?

You've given me a lot to look into and think about though, so thank you very much trilobite.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

Pic I forgot to add to the last post, this is Freya. The fourth girl above.


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## MoonShadow (Feb 29, 2012)

Your best boy is hands down the 3rd boy down, your DT Ra!! Even lobes, nice long body for a DT, well balanced, he's a stunning fish! I don't like any of your girls for him though! He's so nice I wouldn't mix him with vt, it would destroy that amazing balance he has! I would suggest finding a nice HM or Delta girl to breed to him! 

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1366397404

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1366307182


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

I would do the first red ct boy and the red finned ct girls near the bottom.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

The ct has messy rays but nice color. I agree with MoonShadow, the nicest one by a long shot is your second dt. However, None of your females are good matches for him.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Thats the only problem. The cts have achother to prodice more probably red cts and breed truer than the others as red is dominant, but no produce quality fry. On the other hand breeding the best male with a female that doesnot match his potential or colour shape and fins will throw out a whole bunch of differnet fish, which isnt always bad


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

Thank you MoonShadow, Matt, & Mahsfish! And YEAH for my Ra. I have to say I'm rather pleased with myself and Ra shows how much I have learned on here. When we got Ra I exchanged a DT I had picked up and died overnight. They only had about 5 dt's and I spent a long time going over each one trying to get one that just might be breedable. I can't say I totally understand what makes them breedable and what doesn't yet, but at least I was able to pick out a good one when I really tried.

Moonshadow, and extra thank you for links to a couple girls to look at for Ra. It really helps me figure these things out to have something to look at. Someone told me when I first got him to find a nice 8 ray female for him. 

I'm glad breeding isn't happening right now. Ra is kinds small. He might have some trouble unless I find him a little girl or give him some time to grow a bit more. I'm getting some girls from Chard in a month or two for my sorority, so maybe I will see if he has a fitting girl for Ra when the time comes.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

I've been doing a lot of reading and research on breeding and think I am finally catching on a bit. Can someone tell me if what I am thinking is correct or where I got it wrong.

If I decide to work with Ra (the second DT), I'm thinking it would be best to go with a nice HM, PK, or possibly HMPK to breed him with. From that first span I should be able to work on either a DT, HM, or HMDT. Of course this would take breeding F1 back to the parent with the trait I am trying to work on, maybe even for a couple generation. The only thing I'm not sure on is his rays. What would end up happening with them? If the female has CT geno then I'd get quite a few of those as well. If she has no CT geno would the suntail trait breed out over time without having CT reintroduced to the line or would it not show in the first spawning?

If anyone has good links to pages that explain the breeding of traits I'd love to look them over. I think I have found all of them on here so far.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

None are going to produce a show type betta that breeders with that goal in mind will buy. You may be able to get a local shop interested so breed for that goal.

I would not mix tail types and just breed for nice colors. No HM x PK or CT x HM. Just makes a mess of the offspring when you go to sell. Either chose to breed nice solids, or attractive multi colors. And breed healthy fish with vibrant colors.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

Thank you for your input BB.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

I have one more guy I would like everyone's opinion on. Took me awhile to get a picture of Hades. I got him from another member on here. He's a CTPK with giant geno.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

I wouldn't breed him because his traits are undesirable. Unless you breed him to the pk female to shorten his fins to get a true ct pk. He is practically a combtail with 2 rays.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

A ctpk should have shorter fins like a regular pk. Like so.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Here's a better example of a male.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Like this


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

Thank you mahsfish, I was wondering what was undesirable about him. Other than the length of his caudal he looks good though? I could certainly breed him with a traditional PK if that's the case. I even have a king PK girl already. I'll probably try to find one I like better and work with Ra first, but if Hades looks good I'd like to work with a giant line too.


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## Marvel170 (Jan 2, 2012)

those two ctpks look awesome!! I think I want to breed them one day


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## crowntaillove3 (Dec 26, 2012)

Is he flaring in the first pic? I would recommend picking one with a 180 spread, unlike this boy. I love CTPK, but I would go with one with a 180. My favorite is Pan. Good luck!


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Yea the cadual is too rounded and not 180. Preferably it should reach 180. For the most part just the cadual is bad, but for me I'm not a huge fan of his colours. But that depends person to person.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

crowntaillove3 said:


> Is he flaring in the first pic? I would recommend picking one with a 180 spread, unlike this boy. I love CTPK, but I would go with one with a 180. My favorite is Pan. Good luck!


Yes, he's flaring in the first pic. He is still young, about 4 months, but I think that only affects his size anyway. I have to remember that 180 degree spread is best for form! I always forget that one, but something different stick each time I get advice on my boys. 

Isn't Pan sweety? He really is sweet too. I bought him labeled as a 'female betta' & he spent a couple weeks in my sorority as Pandora. The girls followed him around & when they started showing egg bands & in one case dropping eggs I had to start wondering. He never tried to make an egg nest & showed no interest in the ladies. I'm not sure he'd spawn for me at all. I thought with his caudal being uneven on the end he might not be the best choice either.


@ Mahsfish, thank you again. I thought his top line looked a little funny, but after you posted those other pics I wasn't sure. No offense taken on his coloration not being to your taste. I think he's absolutely stunning myself. Like you said though, we all have our own tastes. :-D


Ok, so if I want to use Hades my best choice for a mate for him would be a hmpk. I think I can get a lady for him from the same guy I am going to get Ra's lady from! Since I already plan on putting in a large order with them (I need more than 7 ladies for my 29 gallon sorority) I'll try and get on for each then.




Looks like I am down to these two males. Any suggestions on colors for the ladies? I'd just like to see what others might like. The one I was looking at for Ra was a pretty sold darker red color. Here's the boys in question again.

First Ra, than Hades


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## crowntaillove3 (Dec 26, 2012)

True about the top of Pan's caudal. I would love to see Ra with a green or blue female. Or am I crazy? I think you might get a cool difference in colors and patterns. I'm not very experienced with this, I'm not experienced at all, actually, so I don't know how the color gene would work... Could someone back me up on this? But anyway, I think he might be great with one of your blues or greens. Good luck!


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

crowntaillove3 said:


> True about the top of Pan's caudal. I would love to see Ra with a green or blue female. Or am I crazy? I think you might get a cool difference in colors and patterns. I'm not very experienced with this, I'm not experienced at all, actually, so I don't know how the color gene would work... Could someone back me up on this? But anyway, I think he might be great with one of your blues or greens. Good luck!


For both these boys I would have to buy a new girl. My girls are pretty and I love each one, but they are not going to work well here.

They've got a stickie that goes over color genetics. I've read it several times & will be reading it several more before I decide on anything. I've also started studying the breeding logs to see what others are doing. I'm still very interested in other opinions, what they think might or might not work, and what they'd like to see. I can't remember what a green or blue color combination with Ra might produce, but I think that was one of the color combos I was considering.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Don't mix ra with a blue. You would get red with blue wash or blue with red wash. Neither of their toplines are great but hades seems really funny. Ra's finnage is also better.


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

MattsBettas said:


> Don't mix ra with a blue. You would get red with blue wash or blue with red wash. Neither of their toplines are great but hades seems really funny. Ra's finnage is also better.


What do you mean when you say 'Hades seems really funny'? Are you meaning his top line, color, something else?

Ra is definitely the first one I will be working with. I've already been talking to a breeder about a lady for him. But since we should be moving house relatively soon any spawning will have to wait until we are settled. If you were going to breed Ra what kind of lady would you look for Matt?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I would breed him to a hm with nice form. The color depends on what you want. Do not breed him to another dt. Do you see how hades topline spoons, arches, and then gets kind of lumpy? That's what I mean...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If hades is a giant geno, you could either breed him to a giant/king HMPK girl. . . . lots of culling if you want to improve form. . . . anyway pick the largest ones with the best fin spread and inbreed them. It might be may generations till you get what you want - size, color and form. If you're not prepared for that, I suggest you invest in a new giant pair all together, it's cheaper in the long run.

Ra is a fairly clean red cambodian. If you breed him to an irid, you may get his colors with various level of irids on body and fins, grizzle, cellophane, multi irid (irid with red fins or red wash). I doubt you will get any reds with irids, unless Ra has a strong red background. If Ra carries the NR genes, You can work yourself to whites. . . . It will be hard to clean both irid or red from your line (this is the main reason people prefer not to cross these colors). 

If you breed him to a red (preferably a bright red - not cherry red), you should have cleaner red cambodians and or with various levels of red (some will still show irids on them). You should also produce bright reds, and if you're lucky perhaps yellow or orange (long shot unless one of them has a yellow/orange background).


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

Indjo, thank you for all the wonderful tips! A lot for me to look into & learn more from. I really don't mind the idea of working generation to get what I am looking for, but with that being said I am also looking into more giant & half giant bettas. If these others I end up getting look better than I'll work with them instead. 

I'm not sure I understand what 'irid' is. I thought it meant iridescent, but I didn't think cambodian were iridescent. Ra is definitely iridescent. His body will look pink like in the pics, but if he turns he's blue (I'll post a pic showing this). I'm going to have to refresh myself on the difference between bright & cherry red, I think the one I was looking at was cherry red, but from what you've said I really think I want to find him a pretty irid HM lady with 8 rays or less.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I was wrong, Ra actually carries irid (yes irid = iridescent - turquoise/green, steel blue, or royal blue). The first picture didn't show his actual color. Due to his irids, I doubt he is from a red line.

Cherry red is the traditional dark red. It looks darker because it actually carries black pigments. By bright red, I meant blond red or red that has no black pigments.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I believe these are two of the different reds - cherry on top with the black, and blonde on the bottom.. two of my boys. There is a slight difference between the red color itself in life, but you can definitely see the black in one and the "blonde" in the other in life.. in the picture the cherry black one you can't see the black that well, unfortunately.


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## titolatino1970 (Mar 11, 2011)

justmel said:


> Yes, he's flaring in the first pic. He is still young, about 4 months, but I think that only affects his size anyway. I have to remember that 180 degree spread is best for form! I always forget that one, but something different stick each time I get advice on my boys.
> 
> Isn't Pan sweety? He really is sweet too. I bought him labeled as a 'female betta' & he spent a couple weeks in my sorority as Pandora. The girls followed him around & when they started showing egg bands & in one case dropping eggs I had to start wondering. He never tried to make an egg nest & showed no interest in the ladies. I'm not sure he'd spawn for me at all. I thought with his caudal being uneven on the end he might not be the best choice either.
> 
> ...


my boy is ready if you go hmpk or pk there gonna bee nice these guys shoot out cherry reds red redblues black red orange red pineapple black black orchid and black devils 

heres his spawnlog 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=120355&highlight=titolatino1970

here is his father spawn log the father of this spawn is also his 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115011&highlight=titolatino1970
the cts came in directly from char56 through another forum 
those fish were 2 rays but they came from a mostly 4 ray spawn i hope this helps you with you decision


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

@ Myates, to my untrained eye at first look it looked like the same betta, but after awhile of comparing the two I can see the difference. Thank you for the example, seeing them so close in coloring will have me prepared to really look and figure it out with the next one.

@ titolation, I've been studying the spawning logs, I figured it was another good place to learn besides the great stickies on here. I'll be spending some time going over the logs you gave me links to next. I'm sure they will be great help. I'll likely be getting my ladies from Chard. I've already talked to him about it & he had some very interesting ideas on what I could do with Ra.


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## titolatino1970 (Mar 11, 2011)

awesome good luck


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## popcorndeer (Feb 4, 2013)

you know the pic of the 2ed fish? i have the same fish in my room right now! O_O


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

popcorndeer said:


> you know the pic of the 2ed fish? i have the same fish in my room right now! O_O


You should see this one now. Mani (betta in 2nd pci) has colored up since I first got him


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## Laurenie (Aug 5, 2010)

justmel said:


> @ titolation, I've been studying the spawning logs, I figured it was another good place to learn besides the great stickies on here. I'll be spending some time going over the logs you gave me links to next. I'm sure they will be great help. I'll likely be getting my ladies from Chard. I've already talked to him about it & he had some very interesting ideas on what I could do with Ra.


I just received 4 females from Chard that I picked out after winning the auctions for 3 of his males on Aquabid. The ladies are absolutely lovely--great form and size, very nice finnage, and awesome colors--you're definitely going to be extremely happy with any girls (or guys lol) you get from him!


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## justmel (Apr 1, 2013)

I have no doubt about that Laurenie! Chard is great! I've watched a lot of his auctions on AB, although I have yet to bid on anything there. I'll be getting at around a dozen ladies from him before long.  A couple for breeding and a bunch more to fill my sorority.


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## popcorndeer (Feb 4, 2013)

wow he is blue now!


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