# To plant or not to plant?



## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm setting up a new 10g tank for my betta and I think I would like to plant it, but I'm not sure. If I do, this will be my first planted tank. I'm hoping that having live plants can do three things for my tank:

Help keep water conditions clean and stable
Help my betta feel safe and comfortable
Look nice 
Are those reasonable expectations for a planted tank? 
I have a couple main worries about planting the tank:

It will end up being much harder to maintain and clean
Water will get murky from either substrate or tannins.
Plants carrying in disease from their previous habitat
Are there things I can do to mitigate those possible problems?

For reference, I'm thinking of the following plants

Background:
Green Foxtail and/or Star Grass or Ancharis

Mid ground:
Hygrophila Corymbosa and/or Anubias

Foreground
Java Moss or Glossostigma Elatinoides 

Would these plants (maybe not all of them) be a good choice for my first planted 10g tank? I'm also trying to find a rock with a cave for my betta to hide in. 

Would sand or gravel be preferable as a substrate?

Would ordering live plants online during winter be a problem because of the cold weather?

Would a couple tiny shrimp help keep the ecosystem balanced?

I know that's a lot of questions, but I appreciate any help I can get. 

Thanks!


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

This is how you can get rid of your problems: 

1. Pick plants that are easy to care for and don't have many specific requirements. This will hopefully prevent your plants from dying and will keep the tank free of rotting leaves and what not. It's true that planted tanks can be difficult to maintain (I've experienced this as I'm notorious for killing plants) but you shouldn't have much of a problem if you do everything right. Cleaning away dying leaves is a hassle but other than that, you do water changes exactly the same way as in any other tank. 

2. Water will only get murky if you use soil as your substrate, and with adequate water changes that will go away. If you want to avoid this, simply use gravel or sand as your substrate. You won't get tannis unless you add driftwood and/or IAl and/or rooibos tea. 

3. If you want to avoid "diseased" plants, simply quarantine them like you would do with fish. Get a bucket, fill up with treated water, dump the plants in and put a light over them to prevent them from dying. Keep them there for a week or two and you're good to go. 


Your plant choice isn't ideal for a beginner, but if those are the plants you really like, go ahead! Generally we'd recommend things like Java Ferns, Anubias, Wisteria, Java Moss, Crypts and Amazon Swords, but it's all up to you  

You can use sand or gravel, there's not much difference (unless the gravel is huge, like pebbles or something) and plants aren't picky as long as you provide them with root tabs. 

Personally, I wouldn't order live plants during winter. You're better off going to your local pet store to see whether they have some aquatic plants in stock. 

shrimp are a great addition to a planted tank, however, you must make sure that your tank is fully cycled before adding them. Shrimp are very sensitive and even traces of ammonia can kill them!


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

iceburg47 said:


> Help keep water conditions clean and stable
> Help my betta feel safe and comfortable
> Look nice
> Are those reasonable expectations for a planted tank?


Yes, yes and yes. Not without effort, but low maintenance planted tanks aren't that much harder than keeping fish. Minimal increase in workload, and the benfits outweigh it for me. 



iceburg47 said:


> I have a couple main worries about planting the tank:
> 
> It will end up being much harder to maintain and clean
> Water will get murky from either substrate or tannins.
> ...


1. There is some 'weekly' maintenance; I tend to remove dead plants/leaves at the waterchange. I also prune or 'top off' plants once a week too, as needed. 
2. Yes, to start with. The substrate murkiness can be rediced by thoroughly soaking it first, and adding it to the empty tank and filling up with tubing and/or by diffusing waterflow (tilt a plate in the tank and run the water down that). With a filter the sediment should clear pretty fast. 

Regards tanins, this is more an issue if using wood. Presoak it in a bucket for a few weeks (this means it will also be ready to sink) or, if you are lazy like me, boil it for half an hour or so (Don't put it in hot if there are fish/shrimp, etc in there).
3. Nothing to stop you quarantining plants. Most cases of disease in plants only really stranfer to other plants (anubias have had issues lately, and the US are still using some of the problem suppliers so some nasty anubias have been found of late). 



iceburg47 said:


> For reference, I'm thinking of the following plants
> 
> Background:
> Green Foxtail and/or Star Grass or Ancharis


Foxtail is a high light plant and prefers colder waters (too cold for a betta). Cabomba caoliniana looks fairly similar, and so long as you are running a low-tech tank will stay pretty bushy, especially with regular topping off. 

Star grass likes slightly higher lighting, PH under 7.0 and quite a lot of CO2. Might cause issues but if you can get it cheap and are willing to take a risk and dose liquid/pressurised CO2, give it a go. Some people have had success in low-light, low-tech tanks, but most think that it fares better in mid- to high-tech tanks. 

Anacharis, yeah, no worries. Its almost a weed it is so easy to grow. If you have hard water it will benefit from liquid CO2, but should be fine. 



iceburg47 said:


> Mid ground:
> Hygrophila Corymbosa and/or Anubias


H. corymbosa is a pretty easy starter plant. Might even get big enough to fill in some background space, with the right pruning. 

Anubias are a great srter plant, and there are a lot to choose from. I find the a. congensis a nice height for midground areas if placed at substrate level. 



iceburg47 said:


> Foreground
> Java Moss or Glossostigma Elatinoides
> 
> No experience with using moss as a carpet, sorry. The Glossostigma will need C02 onjection to carpet, really. Dwarf saggitaria,Marsilea minuta, Helanthium tenellus and cryptocoryne parva are supposed to carpet okay without CO2, but it will be pretty slow going.
> ...


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks for the helpful info Kisiel and BettaMummy!

I think I'll take another look to pick some easier beginner plants. I love the look of a carpeted tank and I'm hoping to be able to do that. I'm also hoping a full planted carpet will help in absorbing waste at the bottom. Would I be correct in assuming that?

I could possibly add CO2 either as a gas or water additives. I'll have to do some comparison to see which is more cost effective. 

I'll admit though that CO2 injection makes me a bit nervous for the betta since CO2 gas could collect at the water surface making it harder for him to get oxygen. Is that ever an issue?

Are there any shrimp species that bettas tend to ignore more than others? I've been thinking of using bee shrimp but I'm open to options. The betta I'm doing the tank for seems less aggressive than others I've had in the past but he has never had tank mates so I can't be sure.

Also, is there any particular type of sand I should look for? Do I need any special formulation for the plants?

Thanks again.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

iceburg47 said:


> I'm also hoping a full planted carpet will help in absorbing waste at the bottom. Would I be correct in assuming that?


Yes, but I think only as much as other plants. What falls to teh surface, some is abosorbed by the roots of the other types of plants. 



iceburg47 said:


> I could possibly add CO2 either as a gas or water additives. I'll have to do some comparison to see which is more cost effective.


Liquid Co2 is cheaper in the short term, and pressurised CO2 in the long run, if done right. The little canisters sold in pet shops are expensive and dont last long, but bigger ones are supposed to be okay. 



iceburg47 said:


> I'll admit though that CO2 injection makes me a bit nervous for the betta since CO2 gas could collect at the water surface making it harder for him to get oxygen. Is that ever an issue?


So long as you put a CO2 checker in there, and adjust the flow rate of the CO2 (most seem to use 2 bubbles/ second, IIRC) it wouldnt be a problem. Being a labyrinth fish also gives them an advantage, they can break the surface for air, so whilst a drop checker should be your first call, a betta going to the surface often may be an extra indicator that your CO2 is wrong. Adding CO2 also makes it a balancing act, you need to get CO2, Light and Nutrients in a pretty perfect balance or.... ALGAE! Smae in any planted tank, but it can go wrong quicker in planted high-tech tanks. 



iceburg47 said:


> Are there any shrimp species that bettas tend to ignore more than others?


I think most use ghost or bamboo shrimp, as they seem to hide easier. RussellTheShihTzu[/ur] is very knowledgable on all things Shrimp. 



iceburg47 said:


> Also, is there any particular type of sand I should look for? Do I need any special formulation for the plants?


If you are going sand only, root tabs and any sand that isnt sharp but is safe. If you dont want to fork out for Aquarium sand, there are some other options:

- Pool Filter Sand: is supposed to be okay, but may be a tad coarse for betta fins
- Play Sand: Like sold in toy shops for kids sand boxes, really soft but can cause the substrate to hold a lot of gas, so invest in some Malaysian Trumpet Snails or be prepared to poke it a lot. Don't make it too deep, no more than an inch or three, depending on tank size. 
- Kiln Dried Builders Sand: This is what I use, as it is sterilized in the kiln drying process and is very soft. I use it under a cap of black aqaurium sand (looking into alternative black sands myself, will let you know if I find some).


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks again BettaMummy.

I'll look into options for CO2 a bit more. Would it be a good idea to provide a bit more CO2 for the first couple months while I'm trying to promote growth and expansion and then dial it back a bit once I want growth to slow? I don't really want to get too complicated for something as small as a 10g but I do want plants to grow well.

Regarding sand, I expect to go for an aquarium sand but I'm trying to decide between a generic aquarium sand like this one
or one marketed specifically for planted tanks like this one. Would a sand designed for plants make a significant difference in plant growth? Would it also promote algae growth? Would a plant sand be better or more cost effective than regular sand + some fertilizers? I'm assuming that eventually I would need to start adding fertilizers for either sand, just later with the more nutrient rich sand. Would that be a correct assumption?

Regarding shrimp, I'll take my specific shrimp questions to the compatibility thread, but I wanted to ask, do you think they are worth the effort/risk for the benefit they give to the plants/ecosystem? How many would you recommend for a 10g to help the plants? Would there be a better option? I considered snails, but I thought the shrimp would be better at getting up on the plants to eat algae and dead plant matter.


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## Kaxen (Mar 3, 2013)

iceburg47 said:


> Regarding sand, I expect to go for an aquarium sand but I'm trying to decide between a generic aquarium sand like this one
> or one marketed specifically for planted tanks like this one. Would a sand designed for plants make a significant difference in plant growth? Would it also promote algae growth? Would a plant sand be better or more cost effective than regular sand + some fertilizers? I'm assuming that eventually I would need to start adding fertilizers for either sand, just later with the more nutrient rich sand. Would that be a correct assumption?
> 
> Regarding shrimp, I'll take my specific shrimp questions to the compatibility thread, but I wanted to ask, do you think they are worth the effort/risk for the benefit they give to the plants/ecosystem? How many would you recommend for a 10g to help the plants? Would there be a better option? I considered snails, but I thought the shrimp would be better at getting up on the plants to eat algae and dead plant matter.


I use eco complete in one tank and gravel and glass pebbles (plus those ferts that are just little balls in a meltable pill capsule like once every 6 months or whenever) in another and I don't notice a super drastic difference. But I keep mostly low maintennance plants.


My snails have gotten onto decorations that float back and forth in my tank. They climb everywhere, though sometimes they drag the lighter plants down with them, but the plants bounce back once the snails get off. Overall I have more problems with algae on the glass and mesh divider in my tank than the plants themselves.

I'm more partial to snails. My bettas harass shrimp a lot. I've never caught them with a shrimp in their mouth, but they try a lot. Like they will dive straight into a wad of java moss.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

iceburg47 said:


> Thanks again BettaMummy.
> 
> I'll look into options for CO2 a bit more. Would it be a good idea to provide a bit more CO2 for the first couple months while I'm trying to promote growth and expansion and then dial it back a bit once I want growth to slow? I don't really want to get too complicated for something as small as a 10g but I do want plants to grow well.


I'm not 100% sure, but it would probably be more trouble than using liquid CO2. Liquid is easy, a dose a day either as soon as first thing or, ideally about an hour or two before lights on. It dones't matter a lot if you forget to dose daily. 



iceburg47 said:


> Regarding sand, I expect to go for an aquarium sand but I'm trying to decide between a generic aquarium sand like this one
> or one marketed specifically for planted tanks like this one. Would a sand designed for plants make a significant difference in plant growth? Would it also promote algae growth? Would a plant sand be better or more cost effective than regular sand + some fertilizers? I'm assuming that eventually I would need to start adding fertilizers for either sand, just later with the more nutrient rich sand. Would that be a correct assumption?


Yes, it would eplete its nutrients eventually. I have no idea how long it lasts tbh as I havent used it. I only use inert sand (alone or as a cap over soil). But yes, once the plants satrted to die off a few months (?) down the line, you would look to add ferts manually. 

Algae grows advantageously, when it can out compete the other plants for food. Its whenever the balacnce of light-nutrients-co2 is upset that algae takes hold. 



iceburg47 said:


> Regarding shrimp, I'll take my specific shrimp questions to the compatibility thread, but I wanted to ask, do you think they are worth the effort/risk for the benefit they give to the plants/ecosystem? How many would you recommend for a 10g to help the plants? Would there be a better option? I considered snails, but I thought the shrimp would be better at getting up on the plants to eat algae and dead plant matter.


I think so, the only reasons I dont keep them is the male in my community delighted in kjilling them, and my water is very hard. Shrimp really dislike very hard water (or more specifically, with a high TDS reading). 

number would depend on the type of shrimp you go for, a small species would need more, and a larger less.  Nerite snails are excellent cleaners. I have a variety called 'Red Onion/Red Spot/Red Lipped' and I LOVE them. Seriously amazing creatures and they don't chow down on my plants.  Still want shrimp one day though.


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks Kaxen and BettaMummy.

Sounds like I should take another look at snails then. Not sure why I'm so afraid of algae problems, but I am worried about it.

I think I'll go with the eco complete sand unless I find something I like better. I'll also go for the liquid CO2. I'll probably go pick up the tank and some accessories after work today and order the rest (aside from the plants) from Amazon.

In a planted tank should I add a healthy bacteria supplement like safestart to help get the water conditions right for my fish before plants mature?


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

iceburg47 said:


> Thanks Kaxen and BettaMummy.
> 
> Sounds like I should take another look at snails then. Not sure why I'm so afraid of algae problems, but I am worried about it.
> 
> ...


I cant see that bottled bacteria would harm the cycle. Personally I dont put any store in them. 
There will be bacteria on your plants. If there is a hatch in the tank lid, or you can leave the lod off without affecting the light, do that. Basically any body of water left open will develop the colonies due to dirt and skin flakes and whatever floating around in the air, landing in the water and becoming food for nitrifying bacteria.  I think I touch on it here , you may find it interesting reading, maybe not. But its a commonly held position regarding planted tanks here in the UK and in Europe.  But, there is endless debate to whether bottles work. A lot claim success with them, so go ahead if you like  In a planted tank you have a lot of seeder bacteria there from the start, though.


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks again for all the info. I've been reading through the cycling thread you linked to. 

I've revised the list of plants I think I will get based on the feedback from this thread and plant info from PlantedAquariumCentral. Here's the new list of what I plan to order (I'm going off what is available from 1 seller to avoid extra shipping cost):

*Carpet:* 
Pigmy Chain Sword (E. tenellus) or 
Microsword (Lilaeopsis mauritiana) or
Dwarf baby tears (Hemianthus callitrichoides) (can be purchased locally)

I would appreciate advice on pros/cons of these choices. I am planning to use liquid CO2 (Seachem Excel) to help in growth/spreading. If I go with dwarf baby tears I may still get a couple chain sword as foreground.

*Mid and background:* 
Hygrophila corymbosa Siamensis
Java Fern (M. pteropus)
Wisteria, (HYGROPHILA DIFFORMIS)
Cabomba caroliniana

I can also get Anacharis and Anubias locally.

I also have some smooth rocks I collected which I will be boiling/sterilizing to use as hardscape. Do you think grey rocks would look good with black sand substrate? I could possibly find a different sand.

The one thing I really can't decide on is the cover/lighting combo. I would prefer an LED light with a glass cover for the power consumption/lifespan, but I'm having a hard time finding info on them in forums since the word LED is too short for the search tool. I've found this one and several identical ones on amazon and ebay that claim to be good for plants but don't list the actual color temperature or lumens/lux output. Any experience with these or similar? 

Alternatively I'm considering an Aqueon hood that has a 15 watt T-8 fluorescent tube. It comes with their "Full spectrum" tube rather than their tube for plants. Would that be enough light for the plants I listed?

Thanks again for any and all help!


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

Ooof. Ok.

I would not start right off the bat with a high tech co2 injected tank. Baby steps. Get your feet wet in the planted tank world with a low tech tank. Low light LED, no co2 (or Seachem Excel aka "liquid co2" ... but not really what it is or does). No carpeting plants. Yes, it looks awesome, but that's advanced stuff. Dwarf Baby Tears are one of the most difficult plants to keep. They require high light and pressurized co2 to carpet. Excel won't do it. (it _might_ keep it alive but it won't carpet)

High tech planted tanks are a delicate balancing act of pressurized co2, high end lighting, and fertilizers, with timers and all manner of equipment that has to be kept balanced just so or you can kill your plants, your animals, and turn your tank into an algae farm. It's just not really recommended for beginners.

Tannins aren't an issue from plants, they come from driftwood. They can be eliminated before you start, or just let them clear up over time... they won't hurt anything, in fact some people feel the natural tannic acid is often good for the plants (and the right animals).

Take it easy. You should start out with simple plants, like Anubias and Java ferns. Buy plants at PetCo/PetSmart in tubes and packages (NOT from a tank in the shop!) so you can be sure they are disease free with no hitchhikers. Or buy from a fellow aquarist you can trust. Use a simple, low light LED or stock light with your tank, to avoid too much light (and algae). If anything, dose with Excel. Then add stem plants liek swords, and add root tabs and some liquid fertilizers. Then you can slowly work your way up to a high tech tank over time, if you still feel inclined that way.

It's a free country, of course, and if you're determined to make a go of it, you can, and you might actually pull it off. But I think it's a much safer decision to go slow, and you'll have more time to learn what mistakes to make, and what NOT to make, with fewer consequences along the way, by starting with a low tech tank.


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks for the advice.

For some reason the seller's website and another article I read described baby tears as a moderately hardy plant that did well with Seachem Excel. Thanks for letting me know otherwise. The main think I liked about that for a foreground was that it satyed short which seemed good for a relatively small tank. I based most of my plant choices on what I had heard were easy plants for beginners on this forum and articles like "10 Best Freshwater Aquarium Plants for Beginners".

My local pet shops didn't have much selection and their Anubius looked like it was nearly dead (about half of all the leaves were brown and curled). I looked at their plants in the tubes and most of them looked nearly dead or had what looked like hard mineral deposits all over them and the tubes. I'm going to try to check out another shop a bit farther away tomorrow to see if the have anything better.

Regarding lighting/LED's, everything I read here and on other sites said that stock lights (especially stock LED's) were pretty crappy and usually wouldn't support any plants. The tank I bought was on PetCo's dollar per gallon sale and didn't come with any lighting or covering, so that's why I'm looking for some now. If necessary I could return it and get one of the full setup kits but even the salesman at PetCo told me those were pretty low quality and most parts would need to be replaced after a couple months. Oddly enough, he still suggested I should by one. Can't imagine why 

If carpeting is that difficult I can do without it. The how-to articles and videos I had found made it look like it wasn't all that tough and sounded like some of the mosses and grass-like plants would do it on their own over time. Granted, they didn't really cover preventing algae blooms.


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

Stock LEDs ARE usually pretty crappy, but that's the whole point of selecting low light plants. Those plants will do fine under the most basic of lights. The good thing about those low lights is they're not likely to be enough to trigger algae.

Mosses will grow over time very easily under low light, but the key definitely is "over time". Any sort of carpet is an exercise in patience without high tech assistance. Mosses do well to attach to a rock or branch, but they don't really anchor into gravel like the article seems to suggest.

I have Dwarf Hair Grass alive in the most basic of low tech tanks, but it hasn't spread even 1/2" in a year. It looks nice, I think, as a little spot of grassiness, but it's definitely not a carpet.

Carpeting isn't difficult _once the right conditions are in place._ That's the tricky part, unfortunately. Nailing the balance between hours of light, co2 and fertilizers that lets your plants grow fast and healthy while keeping algae away is the tricky bit.

That article is amazing. It's so wrong in so many ways it's unbelievable. They do mention a lot of very nice plants, but the impression they give that they're all beginner plants that thrive under nearly any conditions is simply stupefying.


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## Cotton19 (Nov 26, 2013)

you have gotten a lot of good advice, so my two cents will be quick: a wide leafed anubias makes a great bed when it comes near the surface (my Tricky would be lost without his), and Amano shrimp are the best cleaners I have come across, and can get away from most any betta if you have the 10 gallons and a couple hiding spaces, which your plant preference would provide.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

I agree and disagree with KMan.

Algae blooms only happen when your light/co2/nutrients are out of balance. This is true of any tank, whatever level it is running at. I had a nasty algae outbreak in a stock-LED-lit tank, but that one wasn't at that point getting liquid CO2 or ferts. 

With the right research, there is no reason IMHO to stick with stock LEDs. It's kinda like saying you shouldn't own a pet until you've looked after a tamgotchi. Low light tolerant plants, like anubias, flourish in higher light, balanced conditions. Yes, they wont die in low light, they may even grow, but it will be slowly. There is little enjoyment in that for anyone interested in pursuing the planted tank in a more advanced manner. 

If it is researched first, and the theory between how to balance the nutrients and CO2 (however administered) understood, balance can be found pretty quickly, with only as much algae as any new planted tank tends to generate. 

Granted, I personally wouldnt leap into Pressurised CO2, but only because I have a toddler, and dont like the idea of pressurised anything being reachable. If I didnt have young kids, I would probably try it by now, as liquid CO2 is becoming a bother (I actually have to remember to dose the tank daily. Pressurised co2 can have a timer. Heaven.)

I would advise going mid-tech. Get some decent LEDs, so you arent wasting money on stuff you wont be using more than a few months. That way, you can grow most mid-light plants, which will make for more interesting scapes, and the lower light plants will help teach you about balancing those micronutirents with CO2 (liquid is cheaper until you are sure you want to progress - I dunno what systems cost there, but they are pretty expensive here and liquid CO2 is cheap as chips).


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks for the additional info.

I'm definitely not planning on starting out with CO2 injection and I want to at least start off with easy plants. I certainly don't want to get in over my head from the beginning. I've been doing as much reading as I can about starting a planted tank. I've also been watching videos and reading articles by these guys who run a professional planted aquarium design company about 50 miles or so from me. I'm not saying that because I think I know a lot. More that I am willing and expect to put the time into learning what I need to know although I am anxious to get my betta into a bigger, cycled home. I have been struggling with verifying info though so I appreciate the advice I've gotten here from fellow betta keepers.

I'm about to head off to check out the other semi-local pet shops to see what live plants, substrates and hoods they have although the nearest dedicated fish shop is about 30-40 miles through bad traffic, so I may go after work on Monday when I am already half way there.

I also have the following equipment in my amazon cart ready to order. Do these look like good choices for a low-tech 10-gallon:
Eco Complete substrate

50 Watt adjustable heater (should I get higher power since my house gets cold in the winter?)

Aqueon 100 gph filter (please let me know if you can recommend a better one)

LED light (If I don't get a hood with a light)

Thanks again for all the help!

Edit: I also meant to ask, When reading about recommended Watts/Gallon for lights, would I be correct in assuming that it's a bit different since they use less power for the same amount of light in comparison to more traditional bulbs?


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

Watts/gallon is meaningless when it comes to LEDs. Way too many different bulbs with different efficiencies, different drivers, etc. You can't even use them to compare LED to LED, although sometimes if it's the same model/manufacturer using the same kind of LEDs you can judge them from a relative sense (a 12" Finnex Stingray LED that uses 12w is going to around half the brightness of a 20" Finnex Stingray LED that uses 24w, for instance... I made that up for illustration, btw... also, a 12 LED fixture will likely be half as bright as a 24 LED fixture from the same company that looks twice as big, but there are no guarantees, since the 20 LEDs on my Ecoxotic E-Series are so much more powerful than the 48 LEDs on yours it's not even funny). The light you've picked is a pretty low level light, but probably not too different with what you would get from a stock LED light. You can start off with it and upgrade later, or spend more on a better one now, depends on how you like to roll.

Maybe something like this, made by Finnex, a company that makes high end LED lights for planted tanks, so they really know what they're doing: http://www.amazon.com/Finnex-StingRAY-Clip-Light-Aquarium/dp/B00LMH10HC/

I'd look at the AquaClear 20 or 30 instead of that Aqueon, for the filter. Bulletproof, simple and well-regarded.


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## ZZD (Jan 13, 2013)

You have gotten a lot of info, but I wanted to add a bit too, in regards to the shrimp and snails.

If your tank is heavily planted a handful of ghost shrimp are great. they clean up fallen food and dead plant bits. They need a lot of places to hide though. I currently have a thriving ghost shrimp group producing tons of babies as well and I love them. To control algae a nerite is probably better. I have a nerite and two mystery snails in my 29gal and I had a massive algae issue for a bit that they have tamed. They keep the plants and the glass clean beautifully.

I currently have two desk lamps with the energy efficient daylight bulbs that I think are 60 or 80 watt equivalent and my plants are growing like mad in my 29gal. I also have a basic LED that came with my 3gal tank kit for my 10gal tank and that one also has plants growing quickly. I have Amazon swords and bacopa for the back and undulata and some wenditi and some other random things I've picked up cheap over the years. I also recommend Flourish plant food. Crypts tend to melt when you first get them but the Flourish has helped even my bamboo recover from issues and, as the name implies, flourish. I just put it in once a week and it keeps even the plants in areas getting less light stay healthy. I use sand in my big tank and a mix of sand and gravel in my 10 gal and both have healthy plants.

I don't know much about specific plants, but if you have Qs about the shrimp or snails or plants I can try to help too.


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

ZZD said:


> You have gotten a lot of info, but I wanted to add a bit too, in regards to the shrimp and snails.
> 
> If your tank is heavily planted a handful of ghost shrimp are great. they clean up fallen food and dead plant bits. They need a lot of places to hide though. I currently have a thriving ghost shrimp group producing tons of babies as well and I love them.


Ghost shrimp can certainly get knocked up, but the fry are extremely difficult to raise, since they are born in a larval stage, unlike common cherry shrimp where the babies are just tiny adults. Baby ghost shrimp need special solutions of food, etc. (and this assumes you don't have one of the many brackish varieties) Most ghost shrimp populations don't increase, as a result, unless you're a specialty breeder with lots of time and skill. I had high hopes when I had my first berried female, but sadly, I learned it just doesn't work that way.


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

*Bit of an update*

Ok, so I got sick this weekend but managed to make it to a couple pet stores Saturday morning before it got too bad.

PetSmart had a decent selection of plants in the plastic tubes that looked like they were in much better condition than others I had seen, but also about 50% more expensive. I also had to read relatively fine print on the packaging to find that about 1/2 of them weren't even fully aquatic species. Their "Aquatics expert" wasn't very helpful and just told me any of their plants would grow in any tank as long as I did enough water changes. :-?

After that I went to a small non-chain pet store that pleasantly surprised me. They had a relatively large aquatics section for their size and their staff seemed to be pretty knowledgeable. They also had 5-6 tanks of the healthiest plants I've seen in a store arranged by light requirement and hardiness! They also only kept Siamese algae eaters in their plant tanks so that there wouldn't be problems with snail eggs or other stowaways. I spent a bit of time talking to their staff about setting up a low tech tank, lighting and algae control etc. I think that may be where I go to get my plants when I am ready to plant them. 

I did come out with a couple more questions I wanted to ask here though:

1. The better shop said that for planting they recommend ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia and use it exclusively in their tanks. Would this be significantly better than eco-complete or similar?

2. If I use a dark colored substrate like Aqua Soil or Eco Complete i"m thinking I would like a light-colored sand cap so I can see my betta more clearly (most of his body is a very dark red). Is a fine sand cap hard to maintain without it getting mixed in with the darker substrate? Does having a cap make it harder to plant roots in the substrate without putting the plants too deep? Would a cap increase the likelihood of ammonia buildup under the cap? I recall reading that can happen with regular soil.

3. I'm feeling hesitant about having tank mates (aside from maybe a couple nerite snails since they are well armored) but I'm assuming that a betta in a 10g tank won't be enough of a bioload to provide nutrients for more than 1-2 plants especially since my little guy never leaves uneaten food. Should I just plan on relying on root tabs etc to feed the plants?

4. Kman, you suggested only getting plants in plastic and not from a tank at places like PetCo/PetSmart. Do you think plants from the other pet shop I described could be reasonably safe? I didn't see any sign of disease in any of their tanks.

Thanks again for all the help!


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

1) Aqua Soil is better for your plants (arguably), yes, but there's no actual NEED for it. The hardcore planted tank guys all swear by it... BUT there's an equal number who also swear that regular substrate (eco complete, etc) plus root tabs is all you really need, and there's no need for the fancy ADA stuff. With Aqua Soil there is no need for root tabs, since the soil itself is rich in nutrients. (Eco Complete, despite what the literature claims, is an inert substrate that does not bring any nutrients to the tank worth speaking of, although it is excellent at soaking them up like a sponge and retaining nutrients that are added later.) The downsides to the Aqua Soil are (a) I really don't care for the look (maybe just me) and (b) it "wears out" and needs to be replaced in approx 3 years, sometimes less. Sometimes "wearing out" can simply mean it no longer contains an adequate supply of nutrients and no longer buffers the pH of the water to the same degree (not really an issue for you at this point), other times, "wear out" in terms of aqua soil means it sort of dissolves into a bizarre soupy muck/mud that will need to be replaced ASAP.

(Side note: The fact that the small shop you went to uses ADA stuff is actually quite a good sign... I'd listen to them a LOT more carefully than anyone at the chain stores!)

2) You can't cap Eco Complete, at least, not long term. The larger gravel will always work their way to the surface, and you'll be in a constant battle to shove it back down. It's basic liquid particle physics, the small stuff always works it's way down. You can cap Aqua Soil if you want, though. A 1" cap would be enough to keep the layers separate, although it gets really messy if you ever move a plant or plant a new one later. If you go with Aqua Soil, I would do straight Aqua Soil. Otherwise, a light sand works perfectly well as your only substrate, as long as you use root tabs to provide fertilizers to your plants. (the ones that root, anyway)

3) Correct. If you go medium tech, which is starting to sound like, you can just use root tabs and some liquid fertilizers, like SeaChem Flourish, for the plants. The animal bioload will be irrelevant to them at that point. Nerites go very well with Bettas. Other critters really depend on the Betta. Many bettas have to be kept alone or with minimal other tank mates like Nerites, but you never know until you have an established tank and see what the fish will tolerate. Some bettas will tolerate smaller fish like tetras, and shrimp, others will literally tear into anything you put in the tank.

4) I don't think I ever suggested plastic plants (maybe silk?), but perhaps I said "tube plants" or otherwise packaged plants? I only suggested that because they are generally guaranteed to be snail and algae free (especially the tissue cultured plants that come in cardboard packages at PetSmart). The plants from that local good shop are likely fine, as well.

You are correct to read the packages, and make sure you're getting a true aquatic plant. They have a number of semi-aquatic plants mixed in with the aquatic ones. Also, beware of "Kyoto grass" which is incorrectly labelled as true aquatic, but is not. But most that are labeled true aquatic of fully submersible are good to go.


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks Kman.

I did mean live plants in plastic tubes. Guess I didn't say it well.

Sounds like substrates may be a tough choice. I have no idea if this planted tank will last three years but I certainly hope it does and the idea of having to tear it out to replace the soil doesn't sound pleasant. I may go with sand and root tabs for this tank.

I do want to get quite a few plants (mostly rooted) so my betta has plenty of places to explore and hide. Is there a good way to judge how heavily I can plant the tank without needing CO2 injection.

I've heard that Anacharis is a pretty easy beginner plant but that Excel can kill it. Is that something anyone has had experience with? Since it's pretty cheap and readily available I may just give it a try.


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

I don't care for the appearance of Anacharis, so I haven't used it for 30 years. It's supposed to be easy, though, but yes, there is the Excel sensitivity. Perhaps hortwort? That's another popular, easy, fast-growing plant that doesn't need much.

As for how heavily planted? As heavy as you want. You literally can't over-plant, as long as your fish as room to wend his way around and the plants can all get enough light. 

As for types, it's really not 100% necessary to have a zillion types in your tank. In fact, many people purposely set up single-plant species tanks that can look amazing. (I've seen some REALLY spectacular tanks that are ALL Anubias, for instance... they can look really amazing completely covering a showy piece of driftwood, in fact)

I wouldn't stress over substrate. Either eco complete or sand can produce spectacular tanks. Choose the one you like best. Add root tabs and you're done. The one thing I'll say about light colored sand is this: Just like a white carpet in your living room, it shows EVERYTHING.


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Heh, that makes sense about the white sand showing everything. I guess "Casino Carpet" sand wouldn't really be practical :lol:

I may just go ahead with sand or eco complete and root tabs as a substrate. 

Here are a couple more questions I came across: 

1: How much substrate should I plan to buy? For some reason I've got "2 lbs per gallon" as a rule of thumb stuck in my head, but I can't remember where I got that.

2: Seachem's website says that their root tabs should be equally spaced over the tank floor, but since I probably won't be carpeting would it be better to just put them near the plants?

3. I'm going to try to get some nerite snails from the local pet shop. Can they be placed in the tank before it finishes cycling as long as I give them food and sufficient water changes?

4: If I give the snails a piece of cucumber (I've read that is a good food for them) will the betta try to eat it? My betta gets VERY excited about food/feeding time!


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

1) Start with one 20 lb bag. That'll probably suffice. If not, add another. 

2) Yes. I place them near the plants. Unless you're fully covering the tank, no need to have them under empty substrate.

3) Seems reasonable to me. 

4) Doubtful. At best, he'll take a mouthful and decide he doesn't like it. Won't hurt anything, regardless. Try a blanched piece of zucchini, as well (another popular option). Nerites can be picky about food, though, so don't be disappointed if they don't immediately glom onto it. They really do prefer natural algae. (which you can probably raise at home by putting water in a cup with a rock and putting it outside in the sun for a few days... as long as you don't have freezing temps where you are, that is... then maybe by a sunny window?)


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks kman, and thanks again to everyone for all the helpful info here.

The rest of the stuff that I ordered for my tank setup should be here today so I'll be ready to go to the shop and buy some plants pretty soon. I just need to get the tank set up and make a final decision on lighting. Which leads me to yet another question. I'm sure you're thrilled :roll: 

I've been doing a bit more reading about betta's natural environment and the lighting levels they prefer. I am planning on going with all low-light plants but I read in a couple places that bettas really don't like much light and that almost any aquarium lights will cause excess stress. I plan to provide a hiding cave for him but I want him to be able to enjoy his whole tank. Has anyone had trouble with this? 

Thanks again!


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## kman (Dec 10, 2013)

Give him some places to hide, and (hopefully?) some nice plants to give him shade (Anubias are especially great for this) and he'll be fine. I wouldn't worry about lighting too much in a planted tank, unless you're doing an extreme aquascape with high lighting, co2 and all low plants with no shade.

Iwagumi scapes like these are _stunning_ but a bad choice for a betta, I'm sure you can see. That's what they're talking about avoiding:


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## iceburg47 (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks.

My tank will probably be focused on Anubias but I'm hoping to also get a couple other plants as well. I went ahead and got a cheap LED lamp and I'll just plan to replace it if necessary. I actually already picked up 5 3W 6500k LEDs for $1.50 on ebay that I'll use to make a light strip. It'll be a small upgrade, but not much of a risk at that price. I just have to wait for them to arrive from China.

Those Iwagumi scapes sure are beautiful, I can definitely see why they aren't good for a betta though. I kind of cringe thinking of Betta fins against the rough rocks.

With any luck I'll have my tank up and started cycling by this weekend. I'll post some pics when I do.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

My bettas have never had a problem in my high light tanks. But depends on the fish. Its down to a med-light tank over 60-70% though, as I have floating plants too, and lots of hiding spots. Iwagumi can work too, so long as the rocks or wood are smooth, and there are some plants for hiding (I have a crypt-only one thats Iwagumi style - the hardscape is supposed to be the focus, with plants to bring out the beauty of the scape, so it doenst have to be tiny carpets and nowt else ).


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