# Betta and Shrimp - I have a theory



## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I've read thread after thread about keeping these guys together, some successful, but more often than not, a dismal failure. So I have a theory I am going to try to see how it goes.

First, I have the shrimp in the tank already (RCS and both tanks actually). The idea is that if the shrimp are there first, the Betta will be less likely to view them as a food source or as an intruder in his space. Once he is in the tank, anything new is food from us, so of course he would see anything else I put in there as food.

Second, feeding. I am planning to feed him more frequently. Before I introduce him to his new home, while he is acclimating, I will feed him. Then three times a day, small to moderate amounts. The idea is if he isn't as hungry, he won't go looking for food.

Finally, I am going to condition him as to when it is feeding time. Prior to feeding him, I will tap the tank three times with my tweezers, then feed him. The idea here is that if I signal him with the sound that it is time for food, he will adapt to that signal and leave the shrimp alone. I am also considering putting a floating ring in the water and feed him through the ring. That would just be a step further in conditioning him into knowing food comes through the ring. When hungry, he goes there rather than elsewhere.

Of course, this is just a theory, so I will let you know how it goes.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Sounds pretty interesting. I wanna know how this goes.


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## Pyrotemis (Apr 17, 2014)

Me, too! I like the sound of conditioning and training a betta to eat at specific times, after specific stimuli. Hope it goes well!!


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## huckleberry77 (May 31, 2014)

This might work, but I would be sure that the shrimp have plenty of places to hide!!

You are trying to put the behavior (eating) under stimulus control which is certainly an interesting thing to try. However, if he does try and eat a shrimp, succeeds, and likes it (positive reinforcement), he will repeat this behavior your efforts will not be fruitful. Now if you could make sure the shrimp taste horrible, then you might be more likely to succeed! Let me know if you figure out how to do that ;-)


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## charliegill110 (May 19, 2014)

i think that all sounds really good except for the part with the tweezers. i'd suggest just using your finger to tap on the glass because what if you lose your tweezers or they break or something ect


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Is your premise that if conditioned that only humans supply a food source Bettas will stop hunting shrimp? What if a shrimp dies and the Betta has an opportunistic feed? How would you control that?

As much as people seem reluctant to believe it very few shrimp deaths are cause by Betta predation. Shrimp are almost impossible for any Betta to catch in a tank planned/planted with inverts and not aesthetics foremost in mind. The exceptions being those unwisely put with females and Plakats which have shorter caudals and a better chance of catching shrimp.


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## KFoster (Mar 26, 2014)

No experience with shrimp, but am interested in your "findings" 
I've always liked the idea of some shrimp in my tank they seem cute. 

I just wanted to say my previous betta knew it was time for food when I made a snapping noise with my nails (using my index and thumb nails together)
He would go swimming to his feeding hole when I made the noise. 

Haven't tried with my newer boys to condition them to anything in particular so far.


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## kittenfish (Dec 1, 2013)

Don't expect to see the shrimp very often once the fish is in there, they pretty much go into hiding 24/7.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

This is only a theory at this point and exploring the theory to see if it holds any validity will be an experiment. There are many variables that will come into play that I won't be able to account for, like the personality of the Betta, his activity level, how fast can he swim, whether or not he was raised on live or processed food and, how young he is.

I fully recognize this will be a kind of all or nothing proposition. Once introduced to the tank, even after feeding him, he will either see them as tank mates and leave them alone or as food and go after them right away. All the rest depends on that first introduction, and yup... if he gets one, then that's pretty much all she wrote.

If he leaves them alone, then the conditioning begins, attempting to teach him both where and when he will find plenty of food. Most everything in nature follows the path of least resistance, so I am also operating under the idea that he will gravitate to where it is easy to find plenty of food rather than more difficult. But here, I can't account for how strong his hunting instincts are so we shall see.

I expect the shrimp will find cover for a little bit until they feel safe, and will come out again once they see him as a tank mate rather than a threat (assuming the conditioning works), and both tanks have plenty of places to hide. 

And I am also not concerned about dead shrimp. I seeded the tank with other bacteria that handle lots of other things in the tank, especially organic breakdown and nitrification. He will have to find it quick because I watched as a dead shrimp was broken down into a fuzz within 24 hours.

So we shall see how this goes. Can't hurt to try.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

lol... Realized that all sounded a bit defensive, which it wasn't meant to be. All very good points and just working it out in my mind (in writing, actually )


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I didn't think you sounded defensive at all; just explaining in more detail what you did and didn't expect.

My Bettas take turns living in a community tank. I feed the other fish first on one end and the Betta second on the other. Took them (the Bettas) no time at all to figure out to head to their end as soon as the lid was lifted.


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## RJM (Jun 11, 2014)

So plakats don't do well with the shrimp?


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## Pippin (Apr 11, 2014)

that sounds interesting. I've heard variations of putting the smaller shrimp in first,(Only with small fish) and putting larger more aggressive fish in later. I hope it works.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

My personal experience with PK's is they are rather frisky... tending towards being more aggressive than their longer finned cousins. Personally, I love them, but when I get one, there will be no shrimp


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

No Plakats with shrimp. They can maneuver much more quickly than HM and other types with long caudals which makes actually catching shrimp easier.


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## iElBeau (Feb 20, 2012)

I've taught a fish to eat off my finger… you could do something like that too for conditioning  Really, bettas will learn to eat any way you do it. I don't think it will be necessary to tap three times and then feed through a ring, though it certainly would be a neat trick!


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## RJM (Jun 11, 2014)

Darn. I was thinking about a plakat for my new tank, but I do want shrimp. Good to know! I guess I will pick a different betta when the tank is ready


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## ZZD (Jan 13, 2013)

The bettas personality will make a big difference too. My betta is so timid he just follows the shrimp around at a 'safe' distance and if they turn to face him he flees. He is only ever interested in a dead shrimp. I took the first dead body out with chopsticks and he came flying over and took it back! Now I just leave them and he eats them if they die as a treat. I have ghost shrimp so they look very different when they die. Mine knows food is coming when I turn on his light. I also pick up his food and shake it and he gets excited though I wasn't trying to train him at all.

I would be interested if a more aggressive betta could be trained this way though


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

iElBeau said:


> I've taught a fish to eat off my finger… you could do something like that too for conditioning  Really, bettas will learn to eat any way you do it. I don't think it will be necessary to tap three times and then feed through a ring, though it certainly would be a neat trick!


True. I used to feed my previous Betta from a spoon, but this isn't so much about training him how to eat. It's about training him as to where to eat and when. The ring in the water provides a constant visual clue that food comes from it rather than anywhere else.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Well... There wasn't any need to do all the conditioning I had planned. Picasso ignored the shrimp the way a french noble would ignore a peasant. Dances with Shrimp went straight for the first shrimp he saw, but he couldn't catch them. That, and after a couple faced off with him, he has left them completely alone. Now they are getting along swimmingly (so to speak).

The shrimp in the tank with Picasso have been in hiding, hanging out under the driftwood. When they do venture out, though, Picasso leaves them alone. Even still, they are very nervous with him in the tank. I will be adding some additional cover for them later today.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Can I see pics of your set up? Like how much cover you have?


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Certainly. Here are the two tanks as they are today.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Oh my gosh they're so pretty I'm gonna cry. You have a gift for aquascaping my friend. Love the little 'ravine' in the top one and the moss ball theme in the bottom one.

Dangit you're making me wanna break down the npt I just set up last night and rescape it lol.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Thanks freeflow246. Glad you like it so much and appreciate the kind words. All the plants are very happy in there, and now that he has settled down, Picasso looks lovely gently cruising through the tank. 

I will say this, though, as a lesson learned. With a more shallow setup like the tank with the bridge, I will never keep shrimp with a Betta again. They have gone into deep hiding, and I would imagine life is rather stressful for them. They rarely make an appearance anywhere other than in the deepest recesses of the aquarium, and I have to look carefully just to make sure they are still around.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

[/quote=rpadgett37;4608242]<<snip>>I will say this, though, as a lesson learned. With a more shallow setup like the tank with the bridge, I will never keep shrimp with a Betta again. They have gone into deep hiding, and I would imagine life is rather stressful for them. They rarely make an appearance anywhere other than in the deepest recesses of the aquarium, and I have to look carefully just to make sure they are still around.<<snip>>[/quote]

I agree completely. I won't put dwarf shrimp in a tank with a Betta ever again. Been doing it for a long time but finally acknowledging the stress they're under I felt downright cruel. Now I would discourage anyone from putting shrimp through the kind of stress they'd never tolerate for their Betta. For me it took a bit longer to learn the lesson. :roll:

I have Hester and Larry, two Vampire Shrimp, in the 20 with a Betta and they're fine. They are normally very shy so they only come out late in the evening or when I just have the blue lights on. But they'd do that with the cover my tank has even if there were no other fish with them.

My CPO (Dwarf Orange Crayfish) are unfazed by the Betta, too. They don't hide and are out and about all of the time. The only downside is they will take a ride on the Betta's tail. Any Betta in with them will probably not maintain a long, beautiful caudal for long.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

It's not that same as yours, but at one time I was considering a crayfish, though he was a bit larger than yours. But then I watched a YouTube video. He was in a tank with a school of smaller fish. He literally tracked them, crept up on them, and snatched one of the tiny critters from the water with lightning speed. I was stunned.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Yep, those buggers are quick! We probably saw the same video.


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