# A Special Discussion



## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I know that most of you dont like breeding VT and other fish with poor form or pet store fish. I have my opinion as to why you shouldnt. This thread is where you could share you idea on this topic


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

VT are hard to rehome. I love them. Nothing more amazing than a VT with long fins swimming in a planted tank. BUT they're too difficult to rehome and a genetic mess.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I completely agree... but if you have homes for al the potential 250 of them.. then why not breed them? what are your opinions on that. I think you shouldnt breed them even if you have the homes as you are just flooding the market with more poorly bred fish


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

If I were rich, could afford a mansion of fish rooms and a staff to help care for all the fish, I'd breed colorful VTs and not have to worry about rehoming them. I would love to see some dragon or marble VTs with nice, bright colors swimming about. *dreamy sigh*

But since, as a soon-to-be breeder, I will have to rehome most of my fry, VTs just aren't realistic for me.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have no problem with someone spawning pet store fish if they are willing to cull any undesirable fry, and have a specific goal that they are working toward in mind. However, I do feel that only the cream of the crop pet store fish should be bred as they are a genetic grab bag and there are so many of them out there that you might as well start with the best of a bad bunch. 

Some people do not want to start with the product of someone else's breeding. They want to create and work on their own line of fish, and I am completely okay with that as long as they have not just plunged into the whole thing without really sitting down and drawing up a list of the pros and cons of breeding. 

There is always going to be homes out there for attractive, quality fish regardless of tail type. If you can produce a higher quality VT stock than can be found in stores or online what's the problem with that? 

The only problem I have, is those individuals who consistently put together unsuitable or incompatible fish that are not going to improve on each other. That is why I think if you are new to bettas or are not good with judging form and finnage, you should seek out the help of someone with more experience. A good mentor can help you develop your eye and fine-tune your goals. 

I have no time for those who breed only for the sake of it, and have no intention in ever moving the quality of their fish forward. This IMO is just plain bad breeding.


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## marktrc (Jun 6, 2012)

20 years or so ago i bred VTs. i kept the ones i liked and gave the rest away. we used to have a free newspaper that i was able to post a free ad. i gave them away no problem. i did not have huge spawns though. maybe less then a hundred. 

i would guess that an ad in craigslist might have the same effect today but im only guessing. you may or may not be stuck with alot of bettas.

im not saying that everyone should depend on being able to give away their fish on craigslist. 

i am planning to breed some HMs in the future and have already talked to a lps. whether i start with high or lower quality fish i want to be able to sell them. he said that he would buy any fish i had but only at 65 cents each. this is because he can sell 150 VTs a month and make $1-2 each while he could only sell 2-3 HMs a month. he doesnt want to carry higher quality fish. 

if later i do end up with high quality fish. then i will sell them for more whether it be to stores or online. but at least for now, i know i can sell them for 65 cents to a local pet store.

The fish i do plan to breed in hawaii, come from either a lps or local breeders. i will try to improve on what is available here but i might be biting off more then i can chew. ill prob start a log and people will be able to see how much work it is and if i succeed.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

You're probably going to have to do some culling whether you breed petstore fish or show fish. The important thing is to have homes for the babies no matter what they are.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I think that if you will do whats right by either culling hard or keeping all the babies or you can breed petstore fish. Personally I dont want it to be easy, I also dont want to start with good fish that are someone else's. Thats why I started with petstore fish for my multis and I culled very very hard. And I think the term poor quality fish is wrong... poor breeding fish not a bad looking fish. Most important thing I think breeding no matter good breeders or not is to have a goal not just doing it for the sake of doing it.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

marktrc said:


> ....... he can sell 150 VTs a month and make $1-2 each while he could only sell 2-3 HMs a month. he doesnt want to carry higher quality fish.


<sigh>


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

My daughter has a veil tail. He is a good fish. But I would not breed him, what is the point? He is not a wild breed, not a show fish, just a mediocre fish. I also would not spend the time to breed feeder guppies, or feeder goldfish. I'm sure they would make a good pet, but no one buys them except to feed oscars.


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## CrypticDelirium (Jul 28, 2012)

I bought a beautiful CT and petsmart, and had every intention of breeding him and others as my project for aquaculture. Then, when I started to research more, learned about genetics and show quality, I decided I would breed ONLY the best. My lil CT guy - The BEST of petsmart, doesn't hold a candle to imports. He's going to a loving home, a PET home, (My mom fell in love with the lil guy so I'll see him once in a while ;-) ) I just feel personally it's the responsible thing to research first, and thank goodness I did or I'd have listened to the petsmart guy and be breeding petstore fish no one wanted, and watching all the fry die of starvation because they can't eat pellets. 

I think, if you cannot afford monetarily or time wise to search for and to buy quality fish, how then can you afford the housing and care of hundreds of fry, culture live foods, and better the betta?

Besides, I've seen betta locally for $2.99, I'm sure it's not JUST here. Who'd pay $30 to insure LIVE, stress free as possible shipping for a FREE fish of that quality? I strongly believe with what is available it makes no sense to try to re-form petstore fish, it's years and years behind the form and fins of show quality. I'd rather not try to shove off fry to friends who don't REALLY want them and they'll live in an unheated vase their whole lives, which probably wouldn't be long when they fail to do water changes.

Just my two cents, though!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

A question here. Don't you think that it's not only genetics that makes a good show betta but also the way the spawn was raised, ie, regular water changes, good quality, nutritious food, proper housing, etc?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree that most pet store betas are genetic mutts. BUT I disagree that VT are mutts. Yes they've been mass produced - simply to fill the quota. But I refuse the idea that they're genetically a mess. They are VT, beautiful in their own way - bred for color. It's sad to hear people call them mutts - the ancestor of modern fin types .... and still useful to lengthen modern fin types.

I agree not all should breed VT simply because they are harder to rehome. But I'm not against people breeding them IF and only if they can rehome the potential fry. It'd be a shame to see these go extinct.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I've seen some wonderfully beautiful VT bettas. I'd bet that most of us started with a VT betta, I know I did. I didn't even realize there was something else until I started doing more research and fell in love with HM's. Nothing wrong with VT's as long as there are enough good loving homes for them.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

indjo said:


> I agree that most pet store betas are genetic mutts. BUT I disagree that VT are mutts. Yes they've been mass produced - simply to fill the quota. But I refuse the idea that they're genetically a mess. They are VT, beautiful in their own way - bred for color. It's sad to hear people call them mutts - the ancestor of modern fin types .... and still useful to lengthen modern fin types.
> 
> I agree not all should breed VT simply because they are harder to rehome. But I'm not against people breeding them IF and only if they can rehome the potential fry. It'd be a shame to see these go extinct.



+1^ I agree 100%

I saw a truly lovely VT in a store the other day, clearly bred a decentish breeder for fin size/colour and he was healthy... fins like ship sails and a true solid red, no blue wash at all. So lovely!

Beside him were some mass-bred VT's, weedy fish with skinny bodies, poor fins, lovely colours but.. so weedy... not a patch on the big red fellow. And it was obvious to me that the big red guy was a far different and better stock. I have also seen dragonscale VT's there, same thing, big healthy attractive fish.. and put them next to the little mill-bred VT's and I know what I'd choose.

I do think there's a need for some good quality pet store stock, to give people a choice not to buy mill bred fish... and all the problems they tend to have.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I always think VTs are more impressive than HMs when bred well as they are usually able to carry a fair amount of finnage without looking like a sinking ship. 

I was actually playing with the idea of breeding some fancy marble VTs. Just the question of finding the right pair to start with.

Over here there is not so much discrimination against their breeding, as good bettas of any tail type are rare and things like HMs etc. are quite expensive (think $30 for a fish that would be described as a Super delta at best). 

Jodi-Lea one of Australia's main suppliers of bettas gets in some cracker VTs. Like this boy for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADPTkzyvgw&feature=plcp


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

WOW he is a real beauty! Nothing wrong with him.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

VT are only good to get that hardiness into your lines. Other than that I will not breed them. It's difficult enough to rid the trait.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

If all VTs were of the caliber of these two, I think we wouldn't be having this discussion.

AquaBid.com - Item # fwbettasvt1343807800 - Orange Butterfly Veiltails - Ends: Wed Aug 1 2012 - 02:56:40 AM CDT

AquaBid.com - Item # fwbettasvt1343807587 - Fantacy Veiltails - Ends: Wed Aug 1 2012 - 02:53:07 AM CDT


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I especially like the first one. What beauties!


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## VictorP (Jun 5, 2012)

I like the one Jodi-Lea had in LittleBettaFishs' link.


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