# Gill Flukes???



## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

A little over a week ago I purchases two females that I intend to add to my sorority tank. The females came from a community tank in the store that was pretty crowded (my guess is around 30-40 females in 20g or so). I tried to pick two that looked the healthiest with no visible illness. 

Fast-forward to one week from purchase. It's been sporadic but I have noticed that both girls have been rubbing their gill covers on the walls of their quarantine tanks. I have checked for ich and velvet and haven't been able to find anything. One girl in particular keeps her left gill cover slightly curved out from her body and breathes a little heavier than I think is normal. I'm thinking that they might have gill flukes, but I'm not sure.

Both girls were being housed in 0.5g containers but I was unable to heat them. I have since transferred them to spare betta cups, which I'm floating in my heated 10g. I decided to start treatment for parasites using Nox-Ich (medicinal ingredients are 0.5% NaCl, 0.5% malachite green). Water changes and remedication are being done daily.

Does this sound like gill flukes? If so, will malachite green be effective against them or will I need something else?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey sorry you didn't get any replies . How are the girls doing? How good you are that you quarantining them. But you have to be extra careful not to mix the water from their cup with the water in your main cups. I would afraid to put the cups in there.

The symptoms that you described sound that it can be gill flukes.

Malachite Green and Formalin are one of the main cornerstones of fish disease treatments having been used for many years against a range of parasites. They can be used together or separately as anti-parasite treatments against as Gyrodactylus (skin flukes), Dactylogyrus (gill flukes), Ichthyobodo (Costia), Trichodina , Chilodonella and Ichthyophthirius (white spot).

Another medication that helps to get rid of the flukes is API General Cure . There is another one that i thin you can only order on line or buy at the small local fish store. Let me know if you want to know name of it. I have it written down. Someone on the forum used it against flukes.

Here is a link that you might want to check

http://www.drjohnson.com/expanded/treatments/malachite.htm


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks for the reply.

I just finished the first treatment cycle today. The brown girl seems fine, but she also wasn't as bad to start with. I've seen her rubbing still, but it isn't as frequent. My pink girl looks like she might be getting worse. This is the one that keeps her girl cover open. I found a red spot on the inside of her open gill cover today (not sure if this is an open wound or just irritation) and she appears to have some swelling where the top of her gill cover meets her body (it kind of looks like a small bump under her scales, similar in colour to blood plasma). 

I was a little afraid to float their QT cups in my main tank, but I decided the air temp in the house was too cold -- brown girl was completely colourless with stress -- and that the need to keep them warm was more important. I have since picked up another heater and I'm planning to set it up in one of my under-bed storage containers. Then I'll be able to float them in there without needing to worry about contamination of my main tank.

Thanks for the link, some good info there. I found this site to be helpful as well: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/aquariummedication3.html#malachite_green
I decided to start another round of treatment today with the malachite green. If I don't see an improvement after the next round (3 more days) I think I might consider changing things up. If you could find the name of that other med I'd appreciate it. The stores around me don't always have the biggest selection but I might get lucky in finding something with the same active ingredients. 

Interesting that API's General Cure uses praziquantel. I actually have a tube Praziquantel at home. Too bad it's in a dose meant for my horse, not fish.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

API General Cure has Metronidazole and Praziquantel . Not sure which one helps with external parasites though.

Do not stop the treatment if you still any symptoms. You need to treat at least about 10 days after you see any symptoms at all. And even after you will see no symptoms at all i would give them a salt bath. Also i read is that when treating any kind of parasite, it's best to treat once, wait about three weeks, and then treat again to get any eggs/larvae that may have grown up. The three weeks is about how long it would take for the eggs to hatch and grow up into adult parasites.
Don't afraid to over treat them because if it will come back you will need to treat again anyway. They Sorry for saying it but i didn't see a lot of fish survived with gill flukes. The thread that i followed for a long time , someone treated fish for a long time , and even after we thought that we got rid of them and fish was doing good for 3 wks , the flukes came back. So the owner treated again. Not sure what is outcome since she never update her thread ever after we ask her. 
But in your situation i would really afraid to put them in the main tank even if you will think that they recovered . I would wait for a very long time , definitely longer than 6 wks after any symptoms stopped.
Also i did found another medication that i was talking about . Just make sure if you will decide to order it , do not use any medications simultaneously. That medication is very strong. 
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4724

http://www.thatpetplace.com/clout-1...1c4d82c&cj_affid=2617611&cj_affname=Skimlinks
Also i found that thread i was talking about , someone treated a betta with gill flukes. I want you to check a few posts. 
Check POST103 and POST #107

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=269898&page=11

POST #99
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=269898&page=10

I would really like to know outcome so i know how to help someone else. Good luck!


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks again for those links.

I did some more research on this topic and came up with some sites with some really good information. This site in particular has very good information on a variety of topics in fishkeeping, but I found his overview on flukes and medications to be most helpful (he also links to a lot of external sites): http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/parasites-flukes (navigation menu "Health and Diseases" --> "Treatments" also provides some good info)

This site has also proven to be useful in explaining various meds: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html#malachite_green

I also did some research into the ingredients in API General Cure. It appears that Metronidazole is only effective against protozoa, while Praziquantel is a de-wormer and is effective against trematodes (parasitic flatworms, AKA my flukes problem). 

I was also interested in what the active ingredients are in Clout. I found some kind of product info sheet that states that the active ingredients are Metronidazole, Malachite Green, and Trichlorfon. Out of these three ingredients Trichlorfon is the heavy hitter (it's a "organophosphate acetylcholinesterase inhibitor" according to wikipedia).


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Now for my method of attack.

I went out to the dollar store yesterday and picked up a bunch of inexpensive items that I'll be using in my quarantine/treatment process.










Here's a breakdown:
1. Turkey baster (for spot clean-ups)
2. Disposable plastic cups (to be used in place of my store betta cups)
3. Bamboo skewers (to be used as medicine mixing sticks, feeding sticks, etc.)
4. Lined notebook (keeping a log of treatments, observations, water params, etc.)
5. 500 mL Glass measuring cup (easily cleaned, for measuring medicated water quantities -- separate from one in my kitchen)
6. 6 x 1.3 L Glass jars (new quarantine tanks - one for every betta - easily sterilized)
7. Marineland adjustable 50W heater (for heating tub water)
8. 7 gallon Rubbermaid tub (stores heated water for keeping QT jars warm)
9. (not shown) Marina floating thermometer

I am approaching this from an infectious diseases stand-point. I've tried to be careful as far as reducing cross-contamination is concerned, but there are no guarantees. No water or equipment was shared between the affected fish and my established tanks except for the floating of the plastic QT cups in the warmer water in the 10 gal. This means that the only vector for transferring these parasites would have been through me. I'll admit, I was a little careless in the beginning (before I had confirmed the presence of the flukes) with washing hands between the handling of my QT tanks and main tank during water changes. This means that there is a slight possibility I may have flukes (or fluke eggs) in my main tank.

In order to be sure that these parasites are completely eradicated, absolutely everyone and everything is being treated. All bettas have been moved to their quarantine jars and will be medicated with the appropriate dose of Malachite Green for a minimum of two weeks. 










Daily water changes for the 2 infested females, everyday to every other for non-infested. All bettas will be placed in an allocated disposable cup during water changes while the quarantine jars are sterilized with peroxide. Cories, loach, and shrimp will remain in the 10 gal which will be treated at a slightly lower dosage due to higher toxicity of MG in 'scaleless' fish. 

I will avoid using Clout for the time being, because of it's high toxicity and how easy it is to OD. Instead I am trying to get my hands on some pure Praziquantel (already checked the LFS, and they were out of pretty much everything except Coppersafe and Melafix). Since it's a pretty widespread de-wormer I'm going to try getting some Dog or Feline tablets, crush them up and divide quantities based on weight to med quantity ratio. I can then dissolve the powder in water. 

I figure 2 weeks of MG treatment, followed by 2 weeks of Prazi, followed by 2-3 weeks observation for recurrence should hopefully be enough. If not, the Clout is being ordered.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wow!!! So much work i really hope it will work. After 2 wk MG , 2 wks Prazi would you think it would be a good idea for a salt dips just to make sure it will not recurred ? I guess see how they doing first but i guess you have to expect recurrence.
Really wish you good luck! Please let me know how it worked. I will wait for an updated.


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

*2 Week Update*

So it's been almost 2 weeks into treatment, thought I'd post an update.

I just finished the two week treatment with MG, and am now switching over to Prazi. So far the MG seems to have helped - I haven't seen any flashing, rubbing, etc. from my infested girls and none of my other bettas appear to have contracted anything from my carelessness when doing water changes a while back. Unfortunately the I lost 3 ghost shrimp from my main tank during MG dosing (not sure if it was due to the MG, or they just weren't healthy). On the flipside, my scavengers love having a tank to themselves so much that one off my shrimp is now carrying around eggs!:redyay:

Now on to the bad news. I am having a persisting problem with Pink girl's bad gill. The swelling has been continually getting worse and I'm not sure what to do. It's at the point that the swelling is causing the scales above it to stick out from her body.

Couldn't get many good pics of her, but I got some where you can see the affected area:



























(note: the white spot that appears over the swollen area is actually on the glass)










This problem hasn't been noticeably affecting her. She acts as happy as can be and will even try to jump for her food at feeding time. But I'm worried that this is going to cause problems soon. 

Does the swelling seem like the result of a secondary bacterial infection? I don't really want to stop with the parasite meds halfway in order to treat with antibotics, but I also don't want the swelling to get much worse.:-? Do you think a salt bath might help? I have AQ salt handy, but I figure something like this would require Epsom salt.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would not stop the treatment no matter what. You always treat first most dangerous problem. And gill problem can be also due to the gill flukes. I would continue your planed treatment that you mentioned above :'' figure 2 weeks of MG treatment, followed by 2 weeks of Prazi, followed by 2-3 weeks observation for recurrence should hopefully be enough. If not, the Clout is being ordered.''

About aquarium salt or Epsom salt. I would think aquarium bath . Epsom used to reduce the swelling from the edema or for constipation. I would think it will not help with the problem like she has now. You can try the aq salt bath.


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

*4 Week Update*

Whelp, time for an update. 

I'm nearing the end of the treatment schedule I set up, Prazi treatments are just about done. I'll admit there's been some slip-ups in the past week, mostly due to end-of-semester-school-assignments-makes-you-wonder-why-you-ever-decided-to-do-this-program madness (seriously, showing up for 8:30 am and leaving at 3:30 am the next day makes me want to cry ). Water changes are behind schedule, but at this point I'm fairly confident that the pink girl (think I'm calling her Guppy-Two in memory of my first female ever) is the only betta that is going to need extended treatment. I guess the observation period will let me know if I'm right.

About a week ago the swelling on the side of Guppy's face appeared to have split. She's lost a number of scales over the swollen parts and it appeared that the split was kind of along the line of her gill cover (it seems like she has greater range if the cover now, whereas before the swelling was keeping her from closing it). It was a bloody mess, but I have been trying to give her salt baths 1-2 daily in an effort to stop further infection. Not sure if it's working, I guess time will tell. Needless to say she'll be getting treatment beyond the 4 week mark.

And now some not so good news. Something is wrong in the 10 g. Not quite sure what it is. Water params are fine but one of my pygmy cories has been exhibiting some odd behaviour; not staying with the group, and having what I can only describe as freakouts where he'll zip across the tank randomly so fast I can't see him. Sometimes I'll hear him ping off the glass. No flashing or other obvious symptoms, just acting weird. 

My loach has also been losing considerable amounts of condition over the last two weeks. Went from healthy size to super skinny - I think he just stopped eating. I've started hanging out after lights out and I've only seen him eat a single 0.5 mm pellet in the last few days. He'll actively avoid food even when I put it right in front of his face. 

While loach + cories doesn't always mix, and could be the problem there, the issue with that cory has me concerned. The tank has been on the same treatment cycle as my bettas but it just occurred to me recently that the high amount of organics in the tank may be affecting the meds, rendering them ineffective. If so, I may have a problem on my hands. 

There's one more week of school left before a one-week break between 2nd and 3rd semester. I think I forsee a teardown and sterilizing of the 10 g in the near future.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

WOW I feel bad for you, too much. School oh yes heard work hopefully will pay off later. All that work with water changes and treatments for a long time. I really wish you a good break time off at least for one week , better than nothing.
I don't know if i can handle all of that. That is the reason all my bettas in separated tanks. Those fishy lucky to have you! 

Not sure what to say about 10 gall problem. Did you remove activated carbon or filter cartridge from the filter? In your 10 gall , not sure how long you have it, do you rinse the filter media usually?

Sorry i forget are all girls have own tank or you going to keep them in that 10 gall tank that has problem now. If you want to put them in that 10 gall i would not until you absolutely sure there is no problem in there.


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks. Even though it feels like hell right now I know all this work at school will eventually pay off. 

It's okay to forget! My posts are like short stories! All of the bettas are still in individual QT tanks. The loach, cories, shrimp, and snails are still in the 10 g. Since they're all a little more sensitive to meds I figured leaving them in there would help prevent overdosing. I'm also kinda running out of space in my room for tanks, so leaving them in the big tank was more convenient.

I've got a basic sponge filter in the 10 g, so no worries about needing to remove any cartridges. I got the sponge because it was shrimp-safe. I usually give it the swish-and-squeeze once a month or so. I'm amazed at all the gunk that comes out of it sometimes...

I guess I could say I have a mini-update on the 10 g:

1.) none of my fish in there are eating now, they're all just huddled in the corner behind the sponge - so something is defs up
2.) I have shrimp babies! WOOOOOOO!!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

hmm definitely sick and i think the same problem - parasites. Be careful with sharing. Not sure why meds don't work. I am pretty sure you can't use any filter when you treat because it will absorb the med's. Also anything that remains wet car harbor parasites. 
I think you need to remove the filter and medicate the tank. Sorry feel bad for all that time you doing all that work and it didn't work. Keep me updated.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am trying to help someone else who i think has the same problem . She has 20 gall with 4 bettas . Was googling and found that
http://goldfish2care4.com/goldfish-diseases/flukes.html


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Yeah, I found that link before. I was more or less trying to follow a similar schedule with the tank, except that I preceded that with 2 weeks of MG. 

So I picked up a glass 5 g, some more nets, and some Water Wisteria at my LFS. I'm going to try moving over the loach and cories and restart treatment with Prazi. I'll leave it bare-bottom but drop some Wisteria in so they can hide. Then I can tear apart the 10 g whenever I have time (I kind of want to wait until my shrimp larvae have transitioned out of the larval stage first so I'm less likely to kill them).

Not much of an update on my bettas. Some of the younger ones seems to be growing out quite nicely. Looks like I'll have three really nice VT females and some PKs. The swelling seems to be starting again on Guppy2, poor girl. I think she's going to need an anti-biotic at some point. :-(


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hmm Guppy got better with salt dips and then got swelling again. You can try to do regular salt treatment see if it helps. It could be secondary infection from flukes, but i agree to treat her longer.

So now observation for other girls? 

About new nets. You can keep the old ones too. Just rinse it with boiling water and let it dry out for a wk. Parasites will die without a host, so you can use the same nets again.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How its going? Just want to remind to retreat again wait about two weeks, to get any eggs/larvae that may have grown up. The two weeks is about how long it would take for the eggs to hatch and grow up into adult parasites.
Keep reading recommendations from different people and some say treat for 6 wks some say just retreat in 2 wks. So definitely even if there are no symptoms retreat them.
Good luck!


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks for checking in. So far all my bettas seem to be doing okay, except for Guppy (her condition hasn't changed much). The swelling hasn't really gone down, but hasn't been getting worse either. I've been slowly upping the salt dosage for her baths, not sure if it's helping or not. 

One other thing I've done is change the food I've been feeding. I typically feed NLS Grow Formula to all my bettas, but this time I decided to make a batch of Beef Liver Gel following Elitebetta's recipe. I added two cloves of garlic for good measure. The hope is that I can kick her immune system into overdrive, thereby curing herself without antibiotics. All of my bettas seem to love the stuff, so I'm alternating feedings between NLS pellets and jello.

My shrimp larvae didn't survive 4 days after my last post, so the 10 g was torn down on the 22nd. My hardy plants are in ziploc bags, and my delicates are in a pot of water under my light. I currently have sand baking in the oven as I type this. 

I transferred my loach and cories to the 5 g. The shrimp went too, but they didn't take the change too well. I lost them all except for 1, which clearly has what I like to call "white death syndrome". So I expect to lose him too in a week or so. Loach and cories are clearly stressed in the new tank but seem to be responding okay to treatment.

I'll definitely be doing one final treatment for everyone after the observation periods. I'm hoping I can get the 10 g up and running again soon after I sanitize it. I'd like to get a head-start on the cycling process before I start putting everyone back in.


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

Somewhat related to this issue is what to do about a filter. I squeezed out the sponge that used to be in the tank under running hot water for a good five minutes and set it out to dry. 

I kind of want to switch to a small canister filter but I'm faced with the problem of "currently have no money". I'm iffy on using that sponge again, so I'm wondering if an air stone would cause enough water movement to start the cycling process in the replanted 10 g until I get some money for the filter I want.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Elitebetta's recipe interesting. Can you post me a recipe? How you make it? Garlic is good in general as a preventative for any disease . I think ether NLS or Omega one has garlic in the ingredients. 

About sponge how long you kept it dry. I think after about 4-5 days parasites would die without a host. Not sure if they survive linger in the moisture sponge Keep it in the sun for a wk or longer.
About air stone , all cycling process sorry i don't cycle any of my tanks and i have no idea at all. I thought that you really need a filter and air stones will not help the cycling process. And for filter you generally want one that does double what your tank size is. And still always clean the media.
I will suggest to make a thread , here a lot of people who are experienced with that. Let me know when you make the thread i really like a few people recommendations who can help you. 
For Guppy i think its a good idea to treat/increase the salt dosage for her. Just do not use salt longer than 14 days.


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

It's about time I posted an update, I think 

As I mentioned last time, I tore everything apart. Baked my sand, disinfected the tank, heater, thermometer, everything. Then I finally put everything back together a couple weeks later. 

Since I was basically starting from scratch all over again I decided to make some improvements to the tank before adding any fish back in. I went out and bought a 5L bag of Vermiculite and mixed it in with 3/4 of my sand, planted what was left of my plants, and then capped it with the last 1/4 of sand. The plants seem to prefer this much better, it's only been 2 weeks and they are growing much better than before. I also got that filter I had been wanting (woohoo!), so no need to worry about the sponge anymore.

Guppy still has the swelling (ugh). Tried salt and didn't get much improvement. I'm going to go through a round of antibotics - if that doesn't work I think I might just give it up as a lost cause and give her her own tank. All my other bettas seem fine, so I'm going to try putting them back in this weekend.

My cories and loach didn't make it. :-( They were improving nicely but the I think the thermostat on the heater I had in their tank broke. I had it set for 75 F but when I came back after a weekend out of town I found them all dead in water that was around 84 F (wtf). My guess is that the water just couldn't hold enough oxygen at that temp - and once one dies it starts the whole domino effect... Super sad :-( So now I'm in a debate over what I'll get to replace them.


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

I'd be more than happy to post that Beef Liver Gel recipe! I'll do it when I get home tonight


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

lol thank you for the Beef Liver recipe its kind of interesting! Thank you for an update! So sorry for cories and loach I also had very weird story with one of my betta. All my bettas live pretty long lives but this one live only 6 mo and died out of blue.He was absolutely healthy boy, no problem whatsoever. I didn't add anything to his tank, everything is the same.Change the water , i don't think i forgot the water conditioner.I never forget. I change the water second day he got lethargic , 3rd day died. Never happened before to any of my bettas and i own them for about 7 years. I have one that is really old, i lost count i think he is about 5 other bettas also pretty old.
Any way so all bettas are fine only Guppy still has swollen gill. Did you retreat them?


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## Valkyrie (Apr 4, 2014)

Just curiosity, couldn't you sterilize a sponge filter the same way you would a home sponge? Water+lemon juice+microwave 2 mins? Yes you'd have to rinse afterwards but i would think it would kill off any nasties..?


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## duskydolphin (Oct 30, 2013)

*Beef Liver Gel Recipe*

Well, it's a couple days late but here's the recipe: http://dusky-dolphin-dragon.deviant...ins-Beef-Liver-Gel-Recipe-Adapted-f-450618958


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Thank you and good luck! Your fishy lucky to have you!!! I hope everything is good and you got rid of the flukes.


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