# I need your opinion, which female with my red male?



## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

I want to spawn my red male, which girl would be best? There are 2 red girls, a steel blue and red girl, a greenish blue girl, and a black girl with a little red spot on her dorsal (she has already spawned before, so i know she is not infertile). Let me know, I want to do this one in a couple of weeks.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Forth female 
Have a better quality then all the other


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

I would say the fourth is best form but I prefer the colour on the fifth one!!!


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Honestly I think both the red girls are rose tail


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

It's hard to say with the pictures but since I know the other females I would say the red female or the black female. The black female will give you red devils with that male.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Red Devils?


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

The boy has a black trim on the fins, and has an almost black body


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

indianabetta said:


> Red Devils?


Black devil/ red devil same thing really. It' a fish with a dark body and red fins many times they have a butterfly pattern.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

This is a black/red devil coloration


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Well that could be pretty!


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

OOHH I forgot I also have this girl! she has a black body, silver dragon scales, and red fins


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'd go with the dragon female. her rays are better - more rays and balanced fins. Hopefully you'll get fry with at least 4 ray branching - HM. 
You should get half dragons, coppers, green, plus daddy's color (most of them should be multi red)


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Is that your giant female.
If so, no regular male can be breed with her.
3"+ female can't be breed with 3"+ long fin
Their body is total different in size
You size the body up when breeding not the total length of the fish
Male should always be bigger


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Ya thats what I figured, but I thought I should atleast add her to the line up, probably will try the black girl, since I believe the 2 red girls to be rose tail, and would love to get some red and black devils


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Do u know what line is your black female from
If it's a melano female it just a waste of time to breed
But its pretty to keep
If it's not
Your not going to get any hm
Your male don't have a full D spread and your female is a little short from a D to
You'll get a lot of delta n super delta


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Its not a melano female, Bettas Rule has already spawned her and gotten over 200 fry, and then sold her to me, so NONE of my females will work?


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

She is a melano, but she isn't sterile because she doesn't have 100% melano genetic makeup. From the picture it looks like she has some steel blue iridescence, or perhaps copper. This is common. Because melano is recessive, if you bred her with this male you'd proabby get emerald/turqoise iridescent, some with deep red fins.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

She has red on her fins that you cannot see in the picture


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

She may be a red copper, or a steel blue with red wash based melano. Either way, should render some gorgeous fry.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Curlyfatbottom seems to think that her and my male would only make deltas and super deltas , no halfmoons  I love super deltas, but would love to get a few halfmoons if this is true, I was under the impression that she had a full 180 degree spread


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

It is difficult to judge without a side view of a full on flare. Even if you were to have two full 180* halfmoons, you would only get a certain percentage of halfmoon offspring because there are several different genetic characteristics that define a halfmoon. Some of these characteristics are dominant, others are recessive. So it really is unpredictable. A lot of people will breed HMPK to a HM that needs work, since the plakat gene is recessive, the offspring will still be long fin HM with better spreads. =)


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

hmmm thats interesting, I may have to try that, I had no idea! I do have my 3.5 inch hmpk male, he is an egg eater though


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I would stick with this male. He has good potential. The melano female has a nice-looking topline, and your male has a bit of a spoon head. She would help to fix that. It also appears as though she has adequate branching to be at least a near HM, see the enhanced photo below-


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

she is only 4 months old, could she mature into a full hm?


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Do u know what line is your black female from
> If it's a melano female it just a waste of time to breed
> But its pretty to keep
> If it's not
> ...


The female is full halfmoon and I bred her myself. You cannot judge the female by that picture anyway. Females are only infertile if they have no color at all. If a black female has ANY color she is fertile. This black female is the mother of this spawn here and I got over 150 healthy fry out of her.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

KadenJames said:


> She may be a red copper, or a steel blue with red wash based melano. Either way, should render some gorgeous fry.


Both of her parents were steel, and her father comes from a line of blacks.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

and I love her, I think my mind is made up, I am going to use her with my red male, and hopefully get some nice devils, hey what were her parents colors? are they both still on your website?


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Thankyou Bettas rule, I love her pic by the way!


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Bettas Rule said:


> The female is full halfmoon and I bred her myself. You cannot judge the female by that picture anyway. Females are only infertile if they have no color at all. If a black female has ANY color she is fertile. This black female is the mother of this spawn here and I got over 150 healthy fry out of her.
> View attachment 54415


She a little shy from a hm
Almost but not there yet.
She'll produce round edge babies if she breed to the male
Cause both of them have round edge
Not a member of ibc but hold to ibc stander
Easier to sell fish


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

No problem! She is a very pretty girl! Her parents are Mr. Soprano and Barbara. Both of the parents were bred and bought from Sheroyln from Basement Betta's. Sheroyln's steel line just won BOS too.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> She a little shy from a hm
> Almost but not there yet.
> She'll produce round edge babies if she breed to the male
> Cause both of them have round edge
> ...


She is full HM, I appreciate your opinion though, however it is just that. Your opinion. She may not have the crisp lines of a show fish but that does not make her not full HM.

I'll just add that I shoot with a very old canon camera and it does not always have the shutter speed to catch the exact moment of 180 . Anyone who has ever photographed a fish knows how hard it is to get that perfect shot.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Not a straight edge is not a hm
Hm is classified
Straight edge like a D shape
180 spread
Four or more rays
Even fin


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Not a straight edge is not a hm
> Hm is classified
> Straight edge like a D shape
> 180 spread
> ...


That's the IBC standard but it's not the rule. There are female HM without even having a full spread that have placed and won in IBC events. I know this because I asked Sherolyn, who is a known betta breeder. She also won at the last event BOS. Males are expected to have a strong 180 spread but females are normally judged off their rays and form. Sure we have now been getting females with full spreads but they are not as common as you may think. 
You can quote the IBC standard all you want, but like I said that's the ideal standard and not all fish are going to meet that standard completely, and that doesn't mean that they are not going to produce HM fry or are not considered HM.
When you breed bettas for as long as Sherolyn has, and win IBC events like she does I will give you some credit over her in this topic.

Also according to the standard all of the OHM fish and skyhawk fish are not HM. Yet they still produce HM fry.

All HM fish do not have even fins, does that make them not HM since it's written in the standard? 
You can't pick and choose what rules are non negotiable and which one's are not. 

You are admittedly not even a member of the IBC. 

In my opinion you lack the credibility to make judgments like this. I have seen no spawns from you, nor have I ever seen or heard of you winning any events. 
Anyone can google information about breeding bettas, but few can produce good fish. 


Example:
My fish Blue girl. She came in third at a IBC event. She doesn't have straight edges either and yet she placed. If she is not a HM how did she place?









And if she is not HM how did she create this fish?


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Wowwy i am loving his photo!!! Woh! How can i get a boy with finnage like that from you?


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

seeing him has def. confirmed my thoughts about my new black girl "Iris" and my other girls, I am falling in love with "robin" my blue girl, and I am so proud of "rain" for helping build the nest and deposite the eggs of her now free swimming spawn of over 200  I would love a new blue boy with a large full spread for my blue girl, and maybe crossing with Iris to get more melanos.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

I guess its all about your own opinion, if she was "perfect" she would have strait edges, but that doesnt mean she wont make fry with strait edges. My twin sister is a sheltie breeder, and she has become very well known, her females and males can win, even with faults, its hard to get an absolutely perfect specimen. Of course perfect specimens will win it all at shows, but its rare for them to show up, honestly, and one judge may view one dog as perfect, while another sees a fault. its all about opinion, and im sure its the same with fish and showing fish.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

I just found this old post of yours, seems you were giving out different and even opposite information earlier, and I think many breeders would disagree with these statements. I only found these to prove my point that you truly are not qualified to be making the judgments you are making. The OP was very concerned about your statements, and even brought it to my attention through PM. I feel it's my obligation now to show her what kind of information you have given out previously, so that she can better asses your knowledge base.



Curlyfatbottom said:


> don't be surprise that you breed hm/delta and get dt out of it....
> that's how breeder correct there hm line....
> to have clean edge....
> or it's from a dt spawn....


More bad advice....Deformities can and often do get passed on....



> A mutation is a permanent change in the DNA sequence of a gene. Mutations in a gene's DNA sequence can alter the amino acid sequence of the protein encoded by the gene.
> 
> genetic defect - a disease or disorder that is inherited genetically
> Genetic defects refer to deformities that exist at birth.





Curlyfatbottom said:


> Mutation call be pass on to the next generation.
> Deformity can't.
> Yes there a disability mutation.
> Which people tend to call it deform.
> ...



Also you call this male a full HM that you got for your brother? The male has round edges not straight. I am confused now..why is this male with round edges still a HM to you, and the female with a full spread and round edges not?


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Winning an event and not hitting standard and beating a strandard fish.
Just prove that if you know the judge can get you somewhere
It's the same with akc


Breeding sibling Thai fish
Over and over
Jarring them when they are 1.5"
Faring them every day (5 min.)
Keeping them in clean water
Feeding a high diet of protien(shrimp, daphnia)
Don't mean u have skill

Your just taking credit of the original breeder

I don't show my fish for a reason
My skill are fighter
But I do produce sq fancy fish
With little amount of money
I've pick sq female hm for just 10
Sq male hm for 25
Or 30 for a pair
Not very hard to produce a sq when my lfs get fish from Thailand every month or so.
I've don't breed for the money or for a name
Just for the fun of it


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

indianabetta said:


> Wowwy i am loving his photo!!! Woh! How can i get a boy with finnage like that from you?


I have a couple spawns coming up from him, to improve his line I bred him to this female.









When you start getting into breeding your own fish and doing F1's you are gonna have to look at the faults and choose fish that can compensate. If your female has round edges pair her with a male with sharp edges. It's all a work in progress. Rome wasn't built overnight don't forget that.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Winning an event and not hitting standard and beating a strandard fish.
> Just prove that if you know the judge can get you somewhere
> It's the same with akc
> 
> ...




LOL You are saying that the only reason that female won was because Sherolyn knows the judge?....Wow.

BTW how am I taking the credit from the original breeder?? I always state who I buy fish from in my spawns logs and I have never claimed to be some great breeder. I am trying to be a great breeder, but I am far from it right now as I lack the quality of stock that most show breeders have as well as the knowledge base. Which is why I pick Sherolyn's brain every time I see her, I consider her my mentor when it comes to bettas. We all have to start somewhere, and I know I am doing a good job especially considering I just started doing this. You may expect me to be creating show stoppers in my first spawns but I know better. I have more realistic goals for myself.


I also list all of fish on my website and the information includes whether or not I bred the fish or not. I go out of my way to show respect to the original breeders, and I really resent you making that blind statement in anger. I have not been rude to you nor have I insulted you. I Only stated my opinion, and backed it up with facts and quotes. You just made blind accusations in anger.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Tradition hmpk and hmpk 
That's is the different
But both are still hmpk
My brother pick his own fish not me
Plus he pay for it
Reason i Didn't tell him not to get him cause he' was only $10
Plus he look nice n ee


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

I really love that girl too, she looks alot like my red dragon giant female, which has been a pain in the butt because I want to use her with literally every male and cant because of her size, you MUST show me these fry!


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm not stating that.
Just using the information you give me.
Winning an event and don't hit the rule book
Just show 
It is how it is


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I've had several different members agree with me that you don't exactly seem to know what you are talking about. How many shows have you won? How many spawns have you had of your own? Do you realize that you basically just insulted every serious breeder on here? It isn't easy, and it isn't cheap, so you should probably tread lightly with what you say around here because a lot of people are beginning to roll their eyes at your so-called "advice."


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

KadenJames said:


> I've had several different members agree with me that you don't exactly seem to know what you are talking about. How many shows have you won? How many spawns have you had of your own? Do you realize that you basically just insulted every serious breeder on here? It isn't easy, and it isn't cheap, so you should probably tread lightly with what you say around here because a lot of people are beginning to roll their eyes at your so-called "advice."


+1


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

BettasRule, do you have any current males for sale atm that aren't on your stock page? I've been debating over getting a new pair or two and would prefer buying US rather than importing.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Bettas Rule said:


> *LOL You are saying that the only reason that female won was because Sherolyn knows the judge?....Wow.*
> 
> *BTW how am I taking the credit from the original breeder?? I always state who I buy fish from in my spawns logs and I have never claimed to be some great breeder. I am trying to be a great breeder, but I am far from it right now as I lack the quality of stock that most show breeders have as well as the knowledge base. Which is why I pick Sherolyn's brain every time I see her, I consider her my mentor when it comes to bettas. We all have to start somewhere, and I know I am doing a good job especially considering I just started doing this. You may expect me to be creating show stoppers in my first spawns but I know better. I have more realistic goals for myself.*
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I've seen the fish Sherolyn used to create that BOS male and I'm not surprised she took BOS. 

It takes a long time to create a show winning line. Years. As BettasRule said Rome was not built in a day but a line can fall with just one spawn. It takes years of work to maintain a line and one bad cross can ruin it for generations.

My whites are from Chaba so it's still his line IMO. However I'm breeding them in a way I can produce a lot of nice fish. It won't be my line until I purchase another pair and interbreed them to create my own line. 

BettasRule has Sherolyn as a mentor. I CANNOT stress the importance of finding a local breeder to learn from. I learned a lot from Linda Olson even though I had a few spawns before I met her. If newbies cannot find a local breeder, they're not looking hard enough (there's breeders everywhere!).


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Show won zero
Batch
Few hundred batch to adualt 100+ from each batch
Top selling batch 
Over 2 grand 
Selling money fish is fighter
Do you guys know what top thai breeder do with most of there female
Massive cull
Thousand plus fish a year
How much you can get them for if your over there
Less then a Dollard 
Show fish look pretty
but no money
I'm just opening people eyes
I've breeder a few different type
Top dog
8.5k with 2 pup back
My pick
Top Budgie 
100
Top bantam
160 a pair
The term is money talk


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

.... As if this didn't become a confusing argumentive debating mess.

Anyways... Love the fourth gal. And the red one <3 all depends what you are breeding... color, or finnage. I may be breeding a VT female to one of my males, but then I'll have to breed f1s to get any finnage wanted..


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Honest truth
Show Breeder
How many batch do you do in a year
how many fish you cull(from day one adult)
Yeah what you do on the side idk
how we produce the fish
Thats R little secret


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Not really a secret lol. I've talked to show breeders, and breeders who sell great quality, and the hobby breeders, and I've come across many ways of conditioning, and many ways of breeding, and many breeders do cull if they are trying to get something out of a line - but they tend to sell off those culls too.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Well I didnt expect this from asking a simple question :/ sorry guys!!! Regardless if I got Halfmoons or super deltas/deltas I still think they would be pretty, as apparently he is not a Halfmoon  but I still love him, he moves soooo gracefully, even compared to my true halfmoon male. AND he literally holds his fins high 100% of the time, which my halfmoons do not do, other then my dragon giant female. I havent asked Bettas rule to be my mentor, but I have 3 of her girls and 1 of her boys, and hope she would love to see what her lil girls produce with my other boys/girls. She has been extremely nice to me, I know it can be hard helping begginers, im sure you get frustrated, so thank you thank you thank you! I did my homework though, but genetic material online is lacking, so that was why I asked everyones opinion. I am pretty sure the first red girl is a rose tail, the second girl is close to a rose tail, she may be a halfmoon, they do not have strait edges. 
Good news though - my Steel blue and red spawn with Bettas rule steel blue and red girl and my steel bue and red true halfmoon male is still numbered in the 200+ and I havent had any issues, and have only found 3 dead so far  They are all very dark, I do not know if this meens they will have a darker color body (once again a genetics color question) but I do not know what my males parents were. My females daddy was dark blue, I do not know what color her mother was, bettas rule would know. 
Bad news - My giant betta spawn I had to remove the male because he was just eating and eating them slowly, and I dont think any will hatch :/ I think I was spooking him every time I came in to check on my other fry.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

What you could do, is have white paper (or a towel or something) around the sides  some need that, some don't. If any of the eggs hatch, it's okay for them to be at the bottom instead of in the nest! You just have to play dad 

ehh trust me many things turn into rants/arguments :roll: not your fault lol just different ideas and beliefs clashing here and there


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Ya he was getting spooked from seeing me from the top, he couldnt see me from the sides, he would pause and just stare up at me for as long as I was in there.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: yeah some of them you just have to leave and not see for a couple days then remove (as in this time the fry should be free swimming) so you could take care of it. I dunno... they all have personalities. :lol:


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

............
Sorry if I've say a few thing last night
Wasn't myself


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

sometimes we just have off days


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Yep I realize that
When I've woken up on the floor
Of a hotel
6 hours drive away from home
Don't know how I got here


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

IMO, I like female number 4. Her dorsal fin is to die for, once again IMO.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

If I did cross him with one of my rose tails females what would I get?
Rose tail x super delta ?


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I believe you would get a mixture of them. I don't have any experience with rosetails, so I can't say from personal experience, but that is how it usually works. If they male has a good ray count (over 4, more like 8). They rays should support the extra webbing of a rosetail.


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## Yaoilover12397 (Aug 12, 2011)

Fourth one


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Not sure on the rose-tails. I know you shouldn't cross rose tail to rose tail


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I would personally steer clear of breeding rose tails unless you know what you are doing. Too much chance of introducing scale and other deformities into your line.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Was Bettas rule banned because of my thread ???!!!


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## bettalover2000 (May 10, 2011)

You may get some deltas/SD, Your male doesn't look exactly full HM, But I think the fry colors will be gorgeous nonetheless.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

I think there are three types of breeders of Bettas.

Free Bettas: They breed VT from the local pet store and end up giving them away to the pet store if any of them even survived.

Hobbiest: They will breed quality bettas from major breeders and just want some pretty fish that will sell for a decent price. They may also take an interest in breeding for a particular line or type. They will sell any fish that they don't want to keep for further breeding.

Pro/Show: They are breeding for a show winning line. Sometimes they will not sell their better fish for fear that someone will take that line to a better place and beat out their fish. They sell their culls.

Jeff.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

jeffegg2 said:


> I think there are three types of breeders of Bettas.
> 
> Free Bettas: They breed VT from the local pet store and end up giving them away to the pet store if any of them even survived.
> 
> ...



? Why did right that? I didnt realize some breeders only sell their culls


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yep some breeders do sell the culls - unless they are deformed to a point they won't make it, those culls usually end up in other people's homes :3


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Well I promise you guys - I will not be selling any of mine that are not breeder worthy, and if I do, I would clearly call them pet quality, I told myself that I will be keeping only 4-6 out of my 200+ spawn steel blue and red on here, and the rest of the nice ones will be sold, even if they are similar to my saved ones for breeding.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Calling them pet quality is good - I'd rather see the "not good enough's" be given or sold as pets, then culled - but it is YOUR choice =D


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

sometimes, breeders will sell what they consider breed worthy, then offer 'culls'(such as Deltas, wonky-lobed DTs, and sometimes even small imperfections such as minor hunchback or spoonhead) at very cheap prices, sometimes even just shipping. it depends on the breeder. some cull heavily, some only cull major deformities, some cull to lessen the number of fry to a manageable size.


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

I dont see whats wrong with Deltas and super deltas.....? My super delta (avatar) is by far my favorite! I love every one of my lil fry, I will only cull the ones that are deformed. Im sure I will have alot of pet quality and I wouldnt mind giving them away for cost of shipping. Who doesnt love a free super delta?


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

I live in an area that only sees veil tails, so selling even deltas and super deltas around here as pets will get some attention, no one around here has ever seen them


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I love deltas :3 but again like you VEILS are the most common - however here CT is the second common, the rest are "ooo's" and "aaaaah's" that no one or very little of us have seen... Spade and round tail for our veils are very, very rare.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

nothing's wrong with them, but when you're trying to produce a line of HMs and sell HMs, you don't want Deltas. i've just heard of breeders culling deltas. :I it's stupid, imo, cause even a delta can produce Hms, and sometimes be flared to full HM. -shrug- i love my Ichi.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Isn't it that you breed a delta to a HM to extend the rays or something? (totally forgot xD) all I know crossing them helps something LOL. Or even using a delta to extend the finnage on another type


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Well my steel blue and red male spawn is halfmoon, im sure I will get super deltas and deltas and some rosetails, but I think they still deserve to live, and I will post them on the classifieds here once they are old enough  Im sure they will be free or cheap cheap, they deserve their own tanks!


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

:B that's why i said some breeders sell 'culls' for less. still perfectly healthy bettas, just not EXACTLY what they want. .3.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Oh heck if someone on here bred bettas and had a cull (and they were in canada xD) I'd dibs


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

Sucks that you are in Canada, I would send some to you :/


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: darn canada :roll:


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