# Tail is falling apart, raised scales, please help



## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I posted earlier about Mortie, he has new symptoms so I figured I would start a new thread here's the link to the first one...
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=358706
Mortie is really not looking well  I put him in his hospital tank this morning. Clean water with just prime (2drops per gallon) and 2x the dose of stress coat. I put in a few things to rest on too. 
He has what looks like white frays in all of his splits. His fins are looking gray in some areas as well  And now I'm noticing blackish and whiteish areas on his scales. His scales also seem slightly raised. I haven't fed him today because he looks slightly bloated.
I'm planing on stopping at Petco and petsmart after work tomorrow. I'd really like advice on what I should get to help him. I know I will be buying a silk plant for the hospital tank so he has a rest closer to the top. I also wanted to look into frozen food high in protein. 
Could you please suggest what this could be and how to treat it? Or maybe even what you think it could be so I can research how to treat it? I'd also like to hear suggestions for foods. 
This is pictures of him this morning...
































































Sorry there are so many pictures, I really wanted you to be able to see all the angles of his scales and frays.
Here's the hospital tank while he was floating...


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## LovelyBetta (Mar 6, 2014)

Poor Mortie. How's he doing?


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

If his scales are raised he probably has dropsy. Go the disease area in this thread and read the diseases especially the one about dropsy. It's very difficult to cure. If it's very early you may be able to treat it. For now would can go ahead use unscented epsom salt if you have any. Check the disease section for dosing.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

To me, his scales don't look raised though. If you were to look at him from the top down, his scales would stick out like a pinecone if he had dropsy. If it IS dropsy, its the very beginning of it.

As for his fins, It looks like he either shreaded them on something or he was nipping at them. 

You may want to pick up some PLAIN epsom salt just in case. If can help with internal issues like bloating and can help draw fluid out of the body in the case of dropsy but it will not cure it. 

This is dropsy which is actually a side
effect of something else lie an internal bacterial infection.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

To me, his scales don't look raised though. If you were to look at him from the top down, his scales would stick out like a pinecone if he had dropsy. If it IS dropsy, its the very beginning of it.

As for his fins, It looks like he either shreaded them on something or he was nipping at them. 

You may want to pick up some PLAIN epsom salt just in case. If can help with internal issues like bloating and can help draw fluid out of the body in the case of dropsy but it will not cure it. Its 1 teaspoon per gallon, make sure its disolved before adding the fish into the water

This is dropsy which is actually a side
effect of something else lie an internal bacterial infection.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

You are correct the pineconing can be prominent. Unfortunately I've dealt with a dropsy several times in recent months (sorority). In my experience the scales don't always pinecone out completely until the fish is closer to passing away. I've observed scales that stick out slightly but are not fully pineconed it can take some time for that to happen. Some of the fish lived for couple months with treatment.

If you notice the fish is have trouble making it to the surface lowering the water level that makes it easier for the fish helps. If your fish seems to be getting better keep the water level lower until you are sure.One could start with, epsom salts, Erytromycin and Jungle fungus clear.
Even though Kanplex is suggested it seems to expedite pineconing and passing of the fish in my experience. You'd have to use your own judgement. The sooner treatment is inniated the better the chance of survival.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

I am not really familiar with it personally but it looks like it could be caused by tail bitting to me, his scales look too tidy to be dropsy to me. I am thinking by stress. Going back through your other post, the only thing I can suggest looking at his environment for stressing him out. It is a very large tank and perhaps he needs more hidey holes and some taller plants. Betta's like to relax near the surface and feel secure, so maybe he feels he doesn't have that, maybe some floating plants will help and some tall wide leafed plants for him to lounge on as well near the surface will help. Not much help I know but its the only thing I can come up with, his fins don't even look infected or anything to me. So putting it down to stress form bitting.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Thank you all for the replys, I really appreciate your help in trying to figure this out. His scales only appear to be slightly raised, he doesn't look like dropsy. I wonder if the light and dark areas just make it look like they are? 
He was stressed in his 10 gallon the day I took him out, he was chasing the oto's which isnt like him. 
Maybe I didn't explain the fins well... I really do not believe they are from biting. They aren't clear found little bites. They have slowly been thinning out. At first it was only the top section of his tail fin, it was thinning more and more and then started taring and now pieces are falling off between the freys. Its also silvery white color with little black dots. He now has the silvery color in more area with the black dots, his tail is thinning out closer to his body now that all the ends have split open. 
His body also appears to have darker patches and lighter patches. The whiter part appears to be getting worse. I was able to snap a few pictures this morning. From the front of him it looks like it could be soft to touch. 
So today I'll try to get some Epsom salt and some jungle fungus clear, I'll look for the other product too tho I haven't seen it. I'm also getting him a few silk plants for the cube he's in. And I'll be looking at frozen food to up his protein. 
I really hope I can get him feeling better.
I'll post this mornings pictures in a few minutes.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)




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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

The little black dots I can see in the first picture, I am pretty sure are shadows from the bubbles on the glass. If those are the black dots you are referring to.

methylene blue is also a good fungus cure. Good luck with your treatment.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

The little black dots you can see well on the pictures in his 10 gallon too. You can seethem the best on his top fin. They are tiny black dots. I'll look for methylene blue too and figure out what I should try.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Ah, are you talking about the shading sort of dotty look kind of looks like pencil shading colour, I actually just thought that was his colouring.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Yes! Its like pencil shading! Exactly! No that's not his coloring... you can look in his album on my profile. He's just plain blue with some red undertones.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Betta's can change colour slightly. Try the fungus treatment see if that helps, but otherwise I don't know what to suggest, apart from a multi cure, with methylene blue and malachite green, just in case it's a parasite.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I just was looking threw my pictures from this morning and saw one I should have posted...








You can really see the dots here. And see that they are on top of his fins.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

SweetCheeksMum said:


> I just was looking threw my pictures from this morning and saw one I should have posted...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It almost looks like he was sprinkled with something. It has to be a fungus, I can't think of what else it could be. Kinda looks like an algae growing on him.
If he were my fish, I'd try some API Funugs Cure, or API Triple Sulfa. But that's me. You have to decide what to use on him.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Yea you can see it, that is not colouring, I can actually see the raised dots. I have not seen anything like it, it is like white spot but black. I am going to PM a couple of the fish guru guys I have on my friends list see if they can help.


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

Yeah it's really weird, like I said, looks like he's been sprinkled with pepper.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I know... It's really odd, I can't find anything that looks like it online. 
I got 2 silk plants for him frozen bloodworms and Maracyn. I was pretty disappointed in the medication options they had. I hope this will help. I'm thinking I may need to look online next if it doesn't. I'll update in the morning with some pictures. 
He ate well tonight and seems to enjoy his new silk plants. He seems to be swimming well, and is still very social


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

I had a look in my betta downloaded book, from this site, the betta expert has over 15 years or something similar in experience. Alough I didn't think the book was as good as I thought it would be for the price I paid, wasn't really anything in there I didn't already know, but anyway this is the only thing I have that sounded remotely similar, and of course parasites which you treat with malachite green anyway. The below in what the book said. Although it don't really sound like that apart from the gray.

Slime Disease
Symptoms: shaky swimming pattern and a gray coating on the body.
Treatment: frequent water changes and malachite green (a product you can buy at your pet store).

I have another betta book from another fish expert, that one is quite good its on my kindle. I will have a look in there for you, most of the time they only touch on the basics anyway when it comes to the disease sections, so probably wont find anything.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Ok just been doing some online searching and there is such a thing as black spot. I don't know how relevant it is in your case. If you have snails could be the issue.

Here are the links, and the Guru' should be here soon as well.

http://www.angelfire.com/blues/fish_problems/BLACKSPOT.html
http://www.fish-disease.net/diseases/black_spot.php


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hi Sweetcheeks,

Both Beautiful Betta and Lilnaugrim asked me to look at your thread.

I think that lilnaugrim may have found something.... Here's what she wrote to me. (I hope she doesn't mind that I'm reposting a PM - but I do think she wrote something worth reading!)



lilnaugrim said:


> Okay, so I remembered something when I saw the picture from SweetCheeks, I remember reading something about Diplopstomiasis a.k.a. Black Spot. SweetCheeks looks exactly like what all the descriptions say, it's pretty rare in freshwater but it can happen. Most of the time, no medicating is needed because something about the life cycle just doesn't continue like regular Ich or Velvet once it infects the fish or something like that. If you look close at the picture, those black spots on SweetCheeks are raised but tiny. At first I thought, it was just wild type spots but they are also on the rays themselves where the wild spots usually aren't on the rays but in the membrane of the fin.


I've never heard of Black Spot disease before, but I found this page, which was helpful. 

The page lists several symptoms. I don't recall you saying that he is flashing or rubbing against anything. But the other symptoms seem in line with the photos and what you've told us. 

It looks like no cure is needed, since it can't complete the life cycle without the other hosts (which definitely aren't in your tank). If you do want to try treating it though, some sites say that a general antiparasitical is effective. This would be something like a metronidazole/praziquantel combo (found in API General Cure, Tetra Parasite Guard, and several other meds). (Another site recommended using a copper-based medication though.)

-------------------------------

Edited to add: Good job Beautiful Betta and Lilnaugrim - It looks like you two have both come up with the same diagnosis!


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Yea, although, the size might be of, 2mm on a betta would look massive unless they can be smaller. So not sure if this is really right.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

It looks like Black Spot Disease can have more than one cause....

_Neascus_ is a parasite that can cause small black spots that resemble pepper. 
Web page here

_"Black spot disease is commonly observed in rock bass and other sunfish, bass, pike, perch, minnows, and other fish species. It can be identified by the presence of small black spots, usually about the size of a pin head, in the skin, the fins, the musculature, and the mouth of the fish. The black spots are caused by pigment that the fish deposits around the larval stage of a parasitic digenetic trematode, usually a Neascus spp."_

Its life cycle is complex, and takes about 112 days to complete. However, part of the life cycle requires a fish-eating bird, which hopefully, isn't present in your tank!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No problems LittleBlue! I was fast asleep so I'm happy you were able to post it ^_^

The sizes for Black Ich seem to vary but most pictures show very tiny dots much like SweetCheeks here. Here's a regular Clownfish that has Black Ich, they are bigger than the Betta here but I'm not sure if they perhaps can grow once attached to the fish. I'm going to have to look at the life cycle again and how it grows.








I haven't read through this entire thread but I want to ask if you've seen any changes in behaviors yet or at all? Still acting normal and not bothered so much? From what I can tell, the fish will be fine if it is indeed Diplopstomiasis. As LittleBlue pointed out, there has to be a fish-eating bird around for it to fully complete its life cycle ^_^


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

This is what I found on Black Ich:
Black Ich disease appears as small black spots distributed over the fish's body. The spots are about half the size of a pinhead or smaller. They are primarily found on the body and are are especially easy to see on light-colored body areas or on the transparent areas of the fins. Affected fish will scratch on the bottom or other aquarium objects. Other signs of the disease include lethargy, development of a pale body color, and lack of appetite. The disease is caused by a small worm known as a tubellarian. After parasitizing a fish, the worms develop on the fish's skin and gills and acquire dark pigmentation. They are freely mobile and will tend to move over the surface of the fish. After five or six days depending on the environmental conditions, they drop to the bottom of the aquarium. There they mature, with the development of the young worms within their body. Once the development of the young is complete, the adult worms burst, releasing the free swimming young that infest new host fish. The worms can be controlled with various commercially available medications. Formalin based products or those containing organophosphate compounds such as trichlorfon appear to be the best medications. In addition to the use of medications, any excessive buildup or organic material and debris should be siphoned from the aquarium several times during treatment. Since the young worms develop on the aquarium bottom, the removal of debris will aid in controlling the disease by reducing their numbers.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Hey all,
Thank you so much for looking into it and helping me figure this out. I've been pretty sick all night (with the terrible tummy bug that is going around) that's why I didn't respond quicker. 
There are no snails in the tank. I have noticed the tank went threw a pH change. I wonder if this has to do with the lakes turning over. I'm not entirely sure what that means but my grandmother said it every spring and fall. The water smells odd for a few weeks before the ice starts to melt and when it starts to freeze. I'm not sure if this could contribute to it. My other bettas are fine, as are the oto's that live with Mortie. There are no other tank mates (no snails).
His behavior hasn't changed other then doing a little less flaring and opening his fins right up and doing his showy swimming. He's not darting or trying to scratch himself. He's still eating well and comes right to me when I approach the tank. 
I'll be trying to some pictures this morning between dealing with my own sickness.
Edit: He does lounge a lot. I have also seen small white worms in the water. I have seen other posts on here with pictures of them. In those threads they were determined by members to be 'found in aquariums'.
Maybe those are my issue. I don't get why the oto's are unaffected.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What happens, and this is very general, is that when everything melts a lot of pollutants get into the water systems; anything from garbage to poop of all sort to extra ferts basically and it all pollutes the water system for a while until it starts to dry up or gets wash away. This also happens with heavy rain storms and can effect the water poorly such as making the pH fluctuate, nitrate build-ups where previously there were none or very little and then heavy metals can get into the water too. 

During these times I advise to double up on water conditioner just to make sure that you're getting all the bad stuff out of the water. It might also be a little beneficial to age your water over 24 hours and then use the water conditioner doubled as well just to give it that extra kick in the butt so to say! So either way, if the water chemistry has changed pretty drastically without you really knowing or seeing it, this can effect your fish adversely and cause his immune system to temporarily decrease which allowed him to get sick.

Where exactly do you get your water from? A spring fed well, city water?

The white worms sound like planaria, harmless and good for a snack! They come around when tanks are fairly healthy and when there is extra food in the water which is easily done for community tanks ^_^ water changes will get rid of them or you can let your fish eat them lol, free live foods! yay

Sorry about your bug too :-( ugg, I know how that goes and it isn't fun! Hope you get better soon!!


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## mart (Dec 18, 2013)

SweetCheeksMum said:


> Hey all,
> Thank you so much for looking into it and helping me figure this out. I've been pretty sick all night (with the terrible tummy bug that is going around) that's why I didn't respond quicker.
> There are no snails in the tank. I have noticed the tank went threw a pH change. I wonder if this has to do with the lakes turning over. I'm not entirely sure what that means but my grandmother said it every spring and fall. The water smells odd for a few weeks before the ice starts to melt and when it starts to freeze. I'm not sure if this could contribute to it. My other bettas are fine, as are the oto's that live with Mortie. There are no other tank mates (no snails).
> His behavior hasn't changed other then doing a little less flaring and opening his fins right up and doing his showy swimming. He's not darting or trying to scratch himself. He's still eating well and comes right to me when I approach the tank.
> ...


You might want to go to using bottled spring or purified water until your water stabilizes again.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

So glad to hear those tiny worms are ok, I have seen him eat a few! Lol 
We have "city" water. It comes from a lake a few towns over. I grew up on a lake and the water was taken right from the lake. I didn't realize city water went threw the same change until we moved into town (out of the sticks). 
The pH went from 7.4ish to 8.2ish. The other numbers didn't change. I'll be sure to let it sit over night and add twice the prime. Now I only do this while the smell of the lakes turning over is present? Then go back to the usual prime dosing?
Thanks  I hope so too. Hubby and our two little ones have been up all night with it too


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I could grab some spring water. So this is sounding like it'd be ok to put him back into the 10 gallon? Or should I keep him in the hospital tank and follow threw with the treatment I got?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, you can go back to normal changes once you see the water stabilize again.

The reason I ask about city water is that it is chlorinated as we know but sometimes during heavy rainfall season or when things are melting, the city throws in extra chlorine to keep it safe for us to drink and use; of course that isn't so good for our fishes! So definitely at least keep with extra prime during this season, the aging water won't always be necessary but it might be something worth trying for now even though Prime gets rid of, or binds, almost everything that would pollute the water system; never can be too safe, right?


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

So here is Mortie this morning...
























The only thing that appears to have changed is more thinning of his fins and his body is looking more washed out. Do you think he's looking washed out because he just doesn't feel well? 
Other then that he's doing pretty well. Eating regularly, very social, enjoys swimming around and lounging in the silk plants. He still isn't flashing or trying to itch himself on anything.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I figured I would give a quick up date, I also wanted to ask lilnaugrim a question. 
I'll start with the update, Mortie is still acting and eating the same. He still looks pretty washed out but I think I may see regrowth? Which is part of my question. Also it appears there aren't nearly as many black spots on his top fin, which is were I'm hoping I see regrowth? The spots are mostly on the top of his tail fin now. Pieces just keep falling off  thankfully he doesn't seem phased. He's mostly bee resting with his top fin open like in the pictures.
































Now to my question... I remember when we talked about green bettas and how the color layers worked. Mortie is looking more red then I've ever seen him. Is this because some of the blue layer is gone? And the top fin being so white, I feel like it looks like regrowth but maybe its just down to that layer? You can definitely tell there isn't as much spots on it, so I'm hopeful. I hope I explained what I'm asking clear enough.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

Perhaps it should be considered that the fish could have more than one issue like black spot and fin rot ect. If so meds can sometimes be combined or you finish one treatment and move on to the next one to treat the other condition. I like treating one at time where possible because it's easier on the fishes organ system. It's good that he is active and eating. Blue Fishlets should know whether to go gram negative or positive for the fin treatment. Fin pieces IMO don't normally just fall off without rot or maybe if the water was too acidic it would not help an already stressed fish.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Yeah, maybe he does have some sort of rot going on. 
The black spots show up in an area then the fins thin out til they are so thin they keep ripping or splitting open. The area the black spots are on usually turns to a silvery color while its ripping. 
There are a lot less spots on his top fin now tho. I also think its regrowth on the top because of how smooth the white part looks, rather then frayed and ripped. I'm hopeful its starting to get better, but his tail is pretty covered in it now :/ 
Can fin rot be a silvery color? What could I use to treat tail rot? I haven't been treating for the black spot because its supposed to go away on its own.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

As far as I understand it if the silvery area if also looking transparent that is normally new fin growth, although with your boys strange condition that might not be the case. I personally wouldn't be rushing to medicate if he were mine, and was acting normal, and beginning to look better, that's just my thoughts.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm really hoping it just goes threw its cycle and he grows all of his fins back. He's being such a trooper 
Right now I'm just trying to feed good food in little meals and keep him in super clean water. I'm changing it daily with double the prime as suggested and double the stress coat + to hopefully aid in fin growth.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry I wasn't on earlier, I was out of state all weekend so I apologize for not answering sooner!

As for the white, white I've found out, operates on the same level as blue so the white on his fins is just the same as the blue layer. It looks like his fins are almost stressed out more than his body is which I'm pretty sure can't happen lol. It's either all or nothing when it's stress although each have different levels of stress of course. Comparing to the first photos though, he's looking stressed all around which is why you can see more of the red; when fish stress their colors fade which sometimes leads to you seeing more of the under colors rather than the top blue color. All that red was there before, just the blue masked it basically.

As for fin regrowth, I really unfortnately do not see any new growth on him but rather the pieces that have just fallen off; more of them obviously as you stated. But yes, does look like the black dots have moved off his dorsal which makes me really think that the main issue is Black Spot rather than some wild spots or something like that.

Did you get him the spring water?


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I haven't been using spring water. I've been using double the prime and double the stress coat. 
I'll try to get a picture for you to look at tonight when I get home. I'm working til 8 (its almost 1:30 here now). 
Last night he wasn't very interested in food. I got him to eat a bite. This morning he ate well. His top fin is blueing up a little bit near his body, but his tail looks awful. The black spots are still mostly on his tail. They were on his top fin for quite a while before coming off. It appeared he had regrowth between the rays on his top fin, and now there's a little hole in between 2 of them. 
This is frustrating


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Good evening,
I just got done feeding Mortie, taking pictures and cleaning his tank. I got quite a few pictures for you to look at. Poor little guy 
He ate one pellet to night and was flaring tonight  I haven't seen a flair in a few days.
He's doing a lot of resting with his top fin open. To mere I still feel like his top fin looks *somewhat* better. His tail is a different story  I'm afraid he'll end up losing most of his tail. Its peppered in the spots.
































































Let me know what you think. I really appreciate your advice.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Honestly it's difficult, but if he was my boy I would be looking at giving him a dose of Malachite Green which is great for killing parasites. Possibly a double dose, as you can do that for stubborn parasites. I always used to swear by MG for most things. Others may advise differently but I think we are pulling at straws with your guy a bit.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

I could get order some from Doctors Foster and smith. I'm going to go back to read reviews and everything it treats. Do you think his whole tail could fall off? :/


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't know about fall off entirely, but separate more I could see happening, or it could start healing it really is your call on this having watched his top fin, I am only saying what I would be thinking if he were mine. I can imagine this is so frustrating for you. Not knowing what to treat with for the best. Or if to treat at all.

I did read when I was looking at importing from Thailand that the breeders are always using MG in the water to keep the fish parasite free and their fins perfect and that they use it so much that the fish hardly have any natural immune system so it is fairly safe for betta's (of course I am not saying I agree with that, just pointing out the safe part.)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

They usually use Meth Blue not Malachite Green for transport of fish. Meth Blue helps with fungus and helps the cells to continue osmosis IIRC, I haven't done much research on that though. But MG might be something to look into if you felt comfortable with it SweetCheeks.

His dorsal does look better though! Hopefully his tail will follow suit soon as well. I don't believe it will fall off at all, it might be possible but I doubt it honestly. I notice he has a wound opening up in front of his dorsal, did he scrape himself or is that a new development?


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Are you referring to the red part you can see in the first 2 pictures? It looks like its gotten red like the other red patches you can see on his body. Like if you look down by his bottom fin. That patch isn't as red as it was. 
I'm back and forth on the med. I have looked the med and black spot up several times again last night and this morning. I'd like for it just go away on its own, but worry it is going to take a long time with out it. Then on the other hand I'm worried if I try to treat it I could stress him more and it could be for nothing if it doesn't help it. 
I know there's a local salt water aquarium store near me, I'm going to call them tomorrow to talk to someone about it. Since I keep reading its more common in salt water fish, maybe they have experience with it. I would try today but I'm working the whole time its open. 
I'm really glad you guys are helping me with this. It makes me feel like I'm not going threw this alone. Thank you all


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

Good luck with what you do, its hard to know what to do for the best. The thing with Marine is the medications for them will likely be very different than what would be recommended for Tropical, plus it might not be safe for a tropical. But you can ask they might well be very knowledgeable on the subject, most people in marine will also have a good background on tropical too.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

That's what I'm hoping, or maybe they know someone that has dealt with it. I took a few pictures tonight. The top of his tail fin is turning white like his top fin did, and the black spots seem to be leaving the white area. Just like the top  
I checked over his silk plants to night and couldn't find anything sharp. I tried to get the area that looked like it could be scratched in the pictures so you all could get a better look at it to see if it looks like a scratch or fading.


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## Artemis (Mar 9, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't use MG and Meth Blue even as absolute last resorts. I've heard horror stories about it and it can do more harm than good. Dosing is supposed to be tricky too. I'm highly wary of a lot meds though anyway and it's really up to you. Have you tried AQ salt? It can help in short term use for things like preventing secondary infections and I know is really good for ich and some fungus.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

I have used a multi cure containing Malachite Green and Methylene Blue for a fish that had no visible signs of illness except gasping and lying on his side, which I suspected parasites, but no visual signs at all fins were all perfectly in tact, water was fine. I dosed up half expecting the fish to be dead come the morning. Come morning he was up looking for food, with out a doubt that treatment saved his life, if had of done nothing he would have died I have no doubt of that. I have used Malachite Green in fully planted tropical community tanks with no issues either, not that I needed to treat that often but occasionally an outbreak would occur in the tank, fish would have died if left untreated.

I am not someone who likes to treat a fish for the sake of it, and I am bit see how he goes myself, but sometimes we just have to make that call, and leaving and leaving may not always be the best either. But everyone needs to do what they feel is right, for their fish, and I am pretty sure the salt has already been used.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

IMO, both Malachite (Victoria) green and Methylene blue are helpful for many illnesses..... That said, I'm not sure it will help in this situation.

SweetCheeksMum - if his dorsal (top) fin and caudal (tail) fin are both starting to look better, then I would just keep doing what you've been doing..... Hopefully, this is a self-limiting condition, meaning that it will go away with time.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

I have found Methylene blue to be helpful in early stages of illness especially where heavy breathing seemed to be part of the issue. In instances where the scales were already raised and the fish was doing poorly it seemed expedite the demise. I should mention that the advice I was following suggested combining with other medications like kanaplex for the serious illness so that could have something to do with it. Most advice I see for Methelyne blue suggests using it as a closely supervised bath rather than leaving it in a the aquarium.


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

The problem with this fish is that no one can really give any definite advice on what to do for the best. It's a tough case that's for sure, I am glad I am not in SWC shoes, with what to decide.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I asked a former mod wh is very knowledgeable with medications and such and she said


> If the fins are deteriorating, it's probably a combination of flukes and secondary bacterial infection. I would recommend a product with formalin such as Kordon Rid Ich followed by an antibiotic such as API Furan-2.Then use the meth blue as a follow up. Otherwise, lilnaugrim and LittleBlue pretty much know their stuff.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

So I called the salt water fish store yesterday and sent them photos to look at. They've never heard of this in freshwater fish, and only knew of one person that had dealt with it. They also suggested waiting it out since the areas the spots have left are looking better. 
You can really tell he doesn't feel well this morning so I lowered his water level some. We had some social time while he was in his water change cup. He had his breakfast in his cup and I got some pictures. His head area is where a majority of the spots are now  Which makes me pretty nervous. I think the area lilnaugrim pointed out is where the fading started when the spots started appearing near his head. I really hope his head area clears up fast :/ the good news is his dorsal is looking better and better with time. 
I'll get the pictures ready and post them in a few minutes.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)




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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

His fins look a lot better to me. Do you agree? (I only see a photo, you see the real fish....)

I'd keep waiting it out. Do what you've been doing..... 

If things start to get worse though, do what Tikibirds recommended in post #54, as I have a feeling that this advice comes from Sakura. _(Sakura, if you see this - we miss you!)_


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

His fins look better to me too. Not as washed out as they were.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I also agree! The scaling still looks healthy enough so I wouldn't worry so much about the loss of pigmentation or possible marbling. I do agree the fins look much better! It's almost like the black spots are moving around the fish, infecting an area and moving away from it and it gets better after a few days or so. I would also just keep doing what you are doing, he looks like he should be fine hopefully!


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

It's exactly like that! It keeps moving around. I hope it can't return to a place its has already been and left. It doesn't look like it will, or at least it hasn't yet. 
I'm glad you both think he looks better too


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## beautiful Betta (Sep 19, 2013)

His top fin definitely looks better, no signs of the little black spots. And if he is still eating, that's all good.


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## SweetCheeksMum (Nov 3, 2013)

Oh yes  he's still eating. He ate 2 NLS pellets for breakfast and frozen bloodworms for dinner.


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