# New Betta Being Weird :(



## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Hello, everyone.

We got this male crowntail betta about two weeks ago. He was doing just fine until I cleaned his tank and put some new (fake) plants in his tank on Monday. After that I noticed he seemed to be attacking his own reflection nonstop for a day or two. I moved the tank and put some stuff around the outside to try to minimize any reflections. I also noticed him do this very vigorous darting behavior at the surface that I assumed was related to the fighting behavior.

Anyway, he calmed down after a couple days but this morning when I woke up he was on the bottom of the tank. He has spent most of the day down there, only coming up a few times to do the weird vigorous darting thing that now looks like he’s trying to gulp air from the surface. When he’s at the bottom, his head is down in the rocks and his tail floats up toward the surface. It seems like he’s breathing really hard down there, too. Going to try to include pics and video clip.

I’ve been Googling all day trying to figure out what’s wrong. So far I’ve come up with maybe some kind of swim bladder problem, so I discontinued feeding him. Or maybe an ammonia problem. I don’t have a test kit, but changed out some water. I might be able to get one tomorrow not sure. 

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Here are my answers to the questionnaire:

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? 1.5-2 gallons
Does it have a filter? No
Does it have a heater? Yes
What temperature is your tank? 81.5 F
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? No

Food:
What food brand do you use? Hikari Betta Bio-Gold
Do you feed flakes or pellets? Pellets
Freeze-dried? I don’t know
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? About 2-3 pellets several times a day

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? 1-2 a week
What percentage of water did you change?1/3 to1/2
What is the source of your water? Tap water
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? Dip out
What additives do you use? What brand of conditioner? Betta Plus Fluval Tao water conditioner

Water Parameters: 
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water _before_ the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate: Unable to test at this time
pH: No test kit available
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms? This morning
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? It hasn’t really. Gills might be bigger? Not sure
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? Lying on bottom of tank, face in rocks, tail floating up above, seems to be breathing hard
Is your Betta still eating? 2 pellets this morning, have not fed since
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? Changed out some water, stopped feeding
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? No
How long have you owned your Betta? A little over 2 weeks 
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? No


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

His name is Mushu


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi! Can you try giving him more frequent water changes, and remove those plants that you'd added to see if he goes back to his earlier behavior? It might be something else and not related to the plants, but it's worth a try.

Also try taking the temperature (gradually) down to about 78 degrees F.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Hi! Can you try giving him more frequent water changes, and remove those plants that you'd added to see if he goes back to his earlier behavior? It might be something else and not related to the plants, but it's worth a try.
> 
> Also try taking the temperature (gradually) down to about 78 degrees F.



Yes, I can do the water changes and plants. What do you think: every day? Every other day?

But the heater I have right now isn’t adjustable, so it’s either 81.5 as it is now. Or I remove it and it goes back to 68-69 F. We live in Alaska, it’s cold and will take a while to get anything else. Lots of the fish stuff I’ve been looking at won’t ship here from Amazon for some reason. And it’s going to be really difficult for me to get to a pet store for a while.


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Resting head-down like that usually means his swim bladder is giving him trouble. When he's actively swimming and not resting, does his body move normally? Or does his tail drag/float, does he flop sideways, etc.

What stands out is the pellets you are feeding. Hikari isn't the worst brand because "fish meal" is the first ingredient, which is good, but all the ones after that are plant ingredients, which isn't great. Plant matter is hard for bettas to digest and can cause constipation, which can effect the swim bladder.

If you can, I would suggest switching his food to something where fish/seafood is the majority of the ingredients. Omega One, New Life Spectrum, Northfin, and Bug Bites are all good brands that should be easily found. You can also give him some frozen food, especially bloodworms, brine shrimp, or daphnia.

If you can't change his food, try soaking his current pellets in a bit of water before feeding them. This can make them easier on his system, because dry food can sometimes swell in the stomach after eating. If you get freeze-dried treats, definitely soak them before feeding. Aside from fasting, keep giving small meals twice a day, it's better not to overwhelm his system with a full day's meal all at once.

If he's constipated and that's putting pressure on his swim bladder, you can try to get him to poop by making him flare. It's funny but true that flaring often makes bettas poo!

If that doesn't work, you can try adding some Epsom salt (pure, no scents or dyes) to his tank. Start off with 1/4 teaspoon per gallon, pre-dissolved in a bit of tank water. This can also help him regulate his swim bladder even if constipation wasn't the problem. You can increase the amount daily until you reach 1 tsp per gallon, if need be- but if it doesn't help at the full dose, it probably won't, and you can take it out with a water change. Normally you wouldn't leave a betta in Epsom for more than about ten days, but some chronic SBD cases end up needing it for life.


More in general: 

The temperature is a bit high, but still within what a betta can tolerate. It would be better to keep the heater in instead of bringing him down to room temperature- _if_ the temperature stays steady. Do you notice it swinging up and down over the course of the day? "Mini" and "slim" heaters which are always-on depend on the air temperature outside the tank, so they can go all over the place. An adjustable or pre-set heater will actually turn itself on and off, so they can keep a more steady temp regardless of what the air temperature is doing (within reason).

If the temperature of your tank changes more than two or three degrees over the day, you may want to consider unplugging it for now until you can get a better heater. Room temperature, especially as chilly as it sounds like your rooms are, isn't ideal, but IMO it would be better to have him at a steady-but-not-ideal temp if he's already not feeling well. (Most heaters that will physically fit into a tank your size are going to be the "always on" type, so you may want to look into upgrading to a larger tank- it doesn't need to be something made specifically to be an aquarium if you can't get one at a reasonable price in your area, large glass vases and plastic storage containers will also work)

Because you don't have a filter in your tank, you will need to periodically change out 90-100% of the water (or as close as you can get, if you don't want to take him out of the tank). This is because the Ammonia which builds up from fish waste will not go away except by water changes. Once or twice a month is usually alright, as long as you are _also_ doing frequent smaller water changes. Changing 25-50% twice a week would be my recommendation for a tank your size.

Him attacking his reflection is normal, plenty of bettas "glass surf" (swim back and forth along a wall) when they are first getting used to their new tank. It usually calms down in a few days, but some bettas will keep doing it. Blocking off from the outside can help, but also putting plants along the glass to break up the view from the inside.

Did you rinse the plants off well before adding them? They may have dirt from when they were manufactured, or from people touching them. Always rinse new decor well, but don't use soap. I like to soak things in a splash of vinegar to make sure I am stripping off anything oily, just make sure to rinse well afterwards. (Plain white vinegar is aquarium safe in small doses, so while you _should_ rinse until you can't smell any vinegar, you also don't need to panic over the possibility of residue)

If the plants were already cleaned and you can't see any change in them like paint bubbling or a bad smell, then they are probably fine to leave in the tank. Bettas like having lots of plants in their tanks, so IMO it's just a coincidence that he started acting funny after you added them.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> Resting head-down like that usually means his swim bladder is giving him trouble. When he's actively swimming and not resting, does his body move normally? Or does his tail drag/float, does he flop sideways, etc.
> 
> What stands out is the pellets you are feeding. Hikari isn't the worst brand because "fish meal" is the first ingredient, which is good, but all the ones after that are plant ingredients, which isn't great. Plant matter is hard for bettas to digest and can cause constipation, which can effect the swim bladder.
> 
> ...


Hi! Thank you!

So, yes, last night the tank was pretty steady at 81.5 degrees. And this morning it was 79 degrees when I woke up. He seems to be doing better than yesterday. Swimming more and hanging out at the surface instead of the bottom. The only weird thing is that now he’s kind of floating sideways when he stops actively swimming. Active swimming seems normal. It also looks like the front part of his belly might be swollen? I’m not sure, I feel like I’m over analyzing everything now.

I washed and soaked everything very well before I put it in the tank. I think I will take the heater out, leave the plants in, and just change water out more frequently. I’m hoping to get a larger tank and some better stuff for him, but it’s going to be a while before I can get to the one and only pet store we have and/or find someone that will ship what I need to Alaska. In the meantime, I will follow your recommendations for changing the water.

Thanks again!


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)




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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)




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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Yup, floating like that is classic sign of swim bladder problems, and the swelling in his belly suggests constipation as the cause. I would suggest not feeding him for a few days- fasting up to a week if need be won't hurt him- and trying a mirror to get him to flare so he poops. The Epsom will also definitely help move things along if you can get some.

Hopefully he's just a bit constipated, and clearing him out will get him back to swimming normally and feeling better.

If it doesn't get better after he poops a couple of times, then it may suggest a problem like a bacterial infection of his swim bladder, or internal parasites. Those are less likely though so I wouldn't worry about them right now, and just try the constipation remedies.

A two-three degree temperature change is within the normal range, so if that's the biggest change then I would actually suggest leaving the heater in for now. Only if it's swinging more than that is it likely to cause stress. Cold water slows down a betta's metabolism, so digestion problems can actually get worse.

If you have already taken the heater out that's fine, you don't need to put it back- just keep a close eye on his stomach once the constipation is cleared up to make sure he's not eating too much at once.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> Yup, floating like that is classic sign of swim bladder problems, and the swelling in his belly suggests constipation as the cause. I would suggest not feeding him for a few days- fasting up to a week if need be won't hurt him- and trying a mirror to get him to flare so he poops. The Epsom will also definitely help move things along if you can get some.
> 
> Hopefully he's just a bit constipated, and clearing him out will get him back to swimming normally and feeling better.
> 
> ...


Okay, so he seems to be doing better. No more buoyancy problems. I tried to feed him a pea, but he wouldn’t eat it. And I put some epsom salt in the tank. I’m not sure if he pooped or not, but he’s not as bloated as he was before.

Anyway, now he won’t eat. He used to have a very healthy appetite, but won’t eat anything now. He also seems to be changing color. He used to be a very rich shade of red and just looks pale now. I’m not sure what to do


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

The fact that he's not floating and less bloated is a good thing, definitely. The fact that he's turning pale and not eating, not so much. Paleness is a common sign of stress and some bettas stop eating when they aren't feeling well.


A lot of bettas don't really like peas, they _are_ a vegetable after all. For future reference daphnia or brine shrimp is a better option for "fiber" if you can get them, since they're still meaty so they're more appealing, and easier to digest. Either frozen or freeze-dried works the same in this case since it's the exoskeleton of the critters that act as "fiber", just make sure to soak the freeze-dried ones before feeding so you don't upset his stomach more.

To tempt him to eat, you can soak his pellets in garlic juice, or if you have some raw meat on hand and aren't squeamish you can use the "blood" from the package. If that doesn't work, and you can't get to a store to buy some frozen food like bloodworms, you can try to give him a little bit of cooked egg yolk crumbled up, or finely chopped cooked meat (Fish is best, but anything cooked plain with no salt or seasonings would work). They're not good for long-term feeding, but they may get him interested in eating again which is what he needs right now to keep his strength up.

He may perk back up once he's eaten something. If so, just keep going with clean water and he will hopefully start to feel better on his own.


Have you been able to actually see his poop at all? You can try showing him a mirror and having him flare, and if that doesn't do it, put him in a cup or container floating in his tank for a couple of hours, just so you can easily find any poo instead of it getting lost in the gravel.

The reason I ask is because if he's pooping white or clear-ish, especially if it's stringy, that suggests parasites as the cause of his illness. Since they live in the intestines, there would still be "stuff" for him to poop out even if he isn't eating- which means if he isn't pooping at all now that he's not eaten for a few days, parasites are much less likely.

If there's no poo at all then he could just be cleaned out from not eating for a few days. A bacterial infection as the root cause of his illness would still be on the table, especially since he's acting stressed despite looking less bloated & floaty. Parasites usually stay more localized to the digestive system while bacteria affect the whole body.


If he doesn't get better after eating or you still can't get him to eat, and you have ruled out parasites, I would start to treat him for a bacterial infection. Most bacteria that affect a betta internally are gram-negative, and the best medicines I know of for those type are Furan 2 or Kanaplex. Less strong but may still work is Neomycin, Erythromycin, or Triple Sulfa. If you can't get any of those, let me know what _is_ available and I can help you research which is the better option.

In addition to dosing the tank, you can also soak his food in the medicine (once you get him eating), just add a tiny pinch of the medicine to a cup of tank water, and soak his food for a few minutes once it's dissolved. This helps get the medicine to him internally, which is where he needs it most.

Oh and you can leave the Epsom in his tank while you do this treatment, or take it out if the water change wouldn't stress him. It's gentle so its presence shouldn't bother him, and it won't interfere with the medicine.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I would do as Rana suggests; especially about changing food brands when you can. Three good ones are NorthFin Betta Bits, New Life Spectrum and Omega One.

The only area where I might disagree is in doing larger than 50% water changes, except in an emergency, as they are extremely stressful. Most especially with compromised fish or those that have been compromised by problems that can recur (like bloating/constipation).

However, I would consider this an emergency and do a one-time 100% and remove the substrate. This gives him more swimming room and you can use a turkey baster to remove any feces or leftover food which will keep his environment cleanest.

If you leave the substrate in, you can make a gravel vac using airline tubing and a medicine bottle. There are lots of videos on YouTube on how. I believe Wal-Mart has them if they will ship to you. You can even use a turkey baster to get as much waste as you can.

Increase your maintenance water changes to two 25% per week until you get him a larger home. And when you get that larger tank add a gravel vac to your list.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I would do as Rana suggests; especially about changing food brands when you can. Three good ones are NorthFin Betta Bits, New Life Spectrum and Omega One.
> 
> The only area where I might disagree is in doing larger than 50% water changes, except in an emergency, as they are extremely stressful. Most especially with compromised fish or those that have been compromised by problems that can recur (like bloating/constipation).
> 
> ...


Thank you both for your replies!

I did a pretty significant water change today. Probably about 2/3 of it is fresh water. I cleaned all of the gravel and the plants. If he poops, I should be able to see it clearly now since the gravel is white.

I have been trying to get him to flare, even using a mirror, but he’s not responding to it. He won’t eat any of his pellets, and I myself don’t eat fish or eggs so I don’t have any of that stuff on hand.

I should be able to get to the pet store soon in a few days, not sure what they will have in stock. Most places ship here, I think it’s just a matter of certain items being prohibited for some reason. For example, the water testing kit that I’ve seen recommended on here could not be shipped to Alaska from Amazon. But things like gravel, plants, the heater, and thermometer were no problem.

I did notice some clear, stringy filaments attached to the plants Before I changed the water. I assumed they were hairs (we have cats and dogs and small children) that floated into the tank. But now I’m wondering if it wa maybe clear poop?

When I scooped him out earlier, he looked a little “bent” from above, if that makes sense. I will attach a picture.

Thanks again!


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> The fact that he's not floating and less bloated is a good thing, definitely. The fact that he's turning pale and not eating, not so much. Paleness is a common sign of stress and some bettas stop eating when they aren't feeling well.
> 
> 
> A lot of bettas don't really like peas, they _are_ a vegetable after all. For future reference daphnia or brine shrimp is a better option for "fiber" if you can get them, since they're still meaty so they're more appealing, and easier to digest. Either frozen or freeze-dried works the same in this case since it's the exoskeleton of the critters that act as "fiber", just make sure to soak the freeze-dried ones before feeding so you don't upset his stomach more.
> ...


Here’s the pic. Hoping both of you see my response  thanks again!


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## areese (Mar 8, 2020)

I would remove some of the water out of the tank to make it easier to get up and down for air. If the swim bladder is affected some can not get up to the top and will drown and some can not get to the bottom. My boy Stitch had a problem with his heater breaking and he was cold not swimming around which can cause constipation and I was feeding him too many red worms. He was a little bloated so it affected his swim bladder. I put him in some shallow water (about 4" deep) with some almond leaf and did not feed him for a couple of days. He recovered and is fine now.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

areese said:


> I would remove some of the water out of the tank to make it easier to get up and down for air. If the swim bladder is affected some can not get up to the top and will drown and some can not get to the bottom. My boy Stitch had a problem with his heater breaking and he was cold not swimming around which can cause constipation and I was feeding him too many red worms. He was a little bloated so it affected his swim bladder. I put him in some shallow water (about 4" deep) with some almond leaf and did not feed him for a couple of days. He recovered and is fine now.


Actually, a Betta will not drown if it can't reach the surface. They are are faculative air breathers as opposed to obligate. With faculative breathers, air breathing is supplemental to gill breathing. Gills are a Betta's main respiration organ; labyrinth is the secondary organ which _allows _them to breathe air.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Did you notice if Mushu has always have a curved back? It's another, though more rare, sign that a fish is bloating or has bloated.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Did you notice if Mushu has always have a curved back? It's another, though more rare, sign that a fish is bloating or has bloated.


I honestly don’t know. He’s definitely a lot less bloated than he was a few days ago, which is why I thought it was odd that he still looked bent. I don’t often look at him from directly above, though. The very first time I ever scooped him out of his tank, he kind of arched up on his side. Maybe I hurt him?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

No, you did not hurt him. Don't even think that.

If the curve is from bloating it can last a bit. It shouldn't bother him unless it interferes with his swimming. And, sometimes it goes away. 

The one thing written in stone in aquatics is nothing is written in stone.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> No, you did not hurt him. Don't even think that.
> 
> If the curve is from bloating it can last a bit. It shouldn't bother him unless it interferes with his swimming. And, sometimes it goes away.
> 
> The one thing written in stone in aquatics is nothing is written in stone.


Okay, probably just from the overfeeding then. I’m going to try the pellets soaked in garlic. I do have that.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Betta can bloat for a number of reasons: Lack of exercise, overfeeding, age, constipation, genetically predisposed, etc. Bloat from overfeeding can happen when you give them too many pellets _all at once_. And, trust me, you can tell right away if you've overfed to that extent. I have done just that with no issues after withholding food until the belly went down.

Feeding two or three pellets several times per day should not cause bloat.


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## areese (Mar 8, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Actually, a Betta will not drown if it can't reach the surface. They are are faculative air breathers as opposed to obligate. With faculative breathers, air breathing is supplemental to gill breathing. Gills are a Betta's main respiration organ; labyrinth is the secondary organ which _allows _them to breathe air.


Thanks that good to know another myth dispelled


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Betta can bloat for a number of reasons: Lack of exercise, overfeeding, age, constipation, genetically predisposed, etc. Bloat from overfeeding can happen when you give them too many pellets _all at once_. And, trust me, you can tell right away if you've overfed to that extent. I have done just that with no issues after withholding food until the belly went down.
> 
> Feeding two or three pellets several times per day should not cause bloat.


Hmmm. Okay, I’m not sure what’s going on with him then. It will be a week tomorrow (I think) since he’s had anything to eat at all. Is that too long?


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

A week without food isn't great, but a healthy betta should be able to handle that. A sick betta going without food for that long is more of a cause for concern.

If you can't get out to a store and don't have anything at home, and are getting really worried, you could go dig up an earthworm to see if he'll eat some of that. It's really not ideal since you have no clue if the worm is clean & healthy, and because it's too large for a betta as-is you'll have to cut it up, which is objectionable to a lot of people (Tip: freeze the worm first if you can't handle it alive). But a fresh bit of worm is almost _certain_ to get a reaction from your betta.


One more trick I know for diagnosing- if he's still bloated despite not eating- is to shine a flashlight from behind him so you can see through his side, and look at his stomach. It will either be dark and shadowy, or look "hollow" with light shining through it. I'll attach a picture of a healthy betta lit this way so you can compare what the stomach area should look like.

If his stomach is dark and shadowy, it suggests parasites. The best medicine I know of for internal parasites is Prazipro, but any anti-parasite medicine like Paraguard, General Cure, or Copper Safe will help somewhat. You would want to keep the Epsom in his water if you treat for parasites, since it will help his digestive system move them out.

If his stomach is "hollow" then it's full of fluid, and suggests a bacterial infection.

If he's _not_ swollen at all anymore, but still isn't eating, I would probably try an antibiotic just in case. Antibiotics can be harsh on a betta's system, but there are so many illnesses out there that can cause a myriad of symptoms I think it would be worth a shot.


A curved spine can be a sign of malnutrition, but happens over the long-term rather than from something like a week without food. It can also be genetic, or something he's started doing to offset the weight of his fins. In general, if he's still swimming around easily, a curvy back isn't something I would worry about.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

areese said:


> Thanks that good to know another myth dispelled


When I first learned this I had to look up "faculative." 😊


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> The one thing written in stone in aquatics is nothing is written in stone.


👍 !


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> A week without food isn't great, but a healthy betta should be able to handle that. A sick betta going without food for that long is more of a cause for concern.
> 
> If you can't get out to a store and don't have anything at home, and are getting really worried, you could go dig up an earthworm to see if he'll eat some of that. It's really not ideal since you have no clue if the worm is clean & healthy, and because it's too large for a betta as-is you'll have to cut it up, which is objectionable to a lot of people (Tip: freeze the worm first if you can't handle it alive). But a fresh bit of worm is almost _certain_ to get a reaction from your betta.
> 
> ...


I thought I posted this a few days ago!!!!

So, I happened to look through him like that in the sunlight yesterday and (assuming those pictures you added are both normal and healthy) he looks okay. A little shadow in the front like the one picture, and clear in the back. Is that good or bad?

There’s still no poop in the tank, and he ignored the garlic-soaked pellets. He swims fine. Just curves up like that when he’s motionless.

I don’t know what to do. I really can’t get to the pet store until Wednesday, otherwise I have to drag my kids along with and we’re not really supposed to be doing that right now. (My husband works remotely.) There’s still a lot of snow on the ground, so I don’t know if I could find an earthworm (never tried before).

That was a few days ago. He still hasn’t eaten, and is not looking good. Very listless. 

Im not sure if this is a thing, but his fins seems to be deteriorating? They used to look very full and vibrant , and now they‘re stringy and almost transparent. I’m going to try to go to the pet store today. What should I look for? I will refer to your previous post, if you don’t reply before I get there.

Thanks again, everyone! I feel really bad about this poor guy. 😞


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> A week without food isn't great, but a healthy betta should be able to handle that. A sick betta going without food for that long is more of a cause for concern.
> 
> If you can't get out to a store and don't have anything at home, and are getting really worried, you could go dig up an earthworm to see if he'll eat some of that. It's really not ideal since you have no clue if the worm is clean & healthy, and because it's too large for a betta as-is you'll have to cut it up, which is objectionable to a lot of people (Tip: freeze the worm first if you can't handle it alive). But a fresh bit of worm is almost _certain_ to get a reaction from your betta.
> 
> ...


Okay, I got some frozen bloodworms and shrimp. Put a bit of the worms in there and he’s not interested. I also got Bettafix and the CopperSafe parasite stuff. I couldn’t find any of the other things you said. I also got some Omega One pellets.

Should I use the Bettafix?


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Hello, there. Me, again. So, I got a little test strip kit. And it looks like the water is really bad, especially for nitrite. Photo below. I’m going to change out some water. I don’t know what else to do. ☹


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)




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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Do several small water changes until Nitrites are 0.

When you go to the pet store get either the test kit or a liquid Ammonia test. Do a water change if Ammonia registers between regular maintenance changes.

His appetite may return when the water parameters are better.


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Oh no, I'm sorry he's still not doing well, I wish I'd checked the forum sooner in the day. 

Absolutely do a few smaller water changes until the Nitrite is cleared- changing 25% is usually not too stressful, and you'll want to do a few rounds of changes with an hour or two between them to give him a chance to settle. Make sure the new water is the same temperature as his tank and that you add it slowly so you don't upset him.

What water changes have you been doing this past week, since you started posting? It's surprising that Nitrite would build up so quickly in a tank without a filter (unless you added one and I missed the post), so you should also test your water source to see if it has high levels coming out of the tap.


The fin deterioration is either coincidental- a side effect of him not doing well- or it's damage from an infection spreading if the main problem was bacteria. Because of this new symptom and because it sounds like he isn't bloated or showing obvious signs of parasites, I don't think it's parasites you're dealing with.


Since you weren't able to find antibiotics, your main treatment is going to be giving him clean water. I would change 25% daily (after today when you are changing most of it to get rid of the Nitrite) or every other day, adding the fresh water slowly and gently. Frequent changes like this can be stressful, but IMO the benefits of clean water are important when dealing with an already-sick betta.

You can use the Bettafix if you like. I personally don't really like the "-fix" products because I feel they're making claims the product can't deliver on, _but_ if your betta doesn't react poorly to it, then it won't do any harm to give it a shot (There are reports of some bettas reacting poorly, but this may be the result of miss-dosing instead of the formula itself). If you add it, calculate how much of a dose you'll need to add back in after you do your daily water change, because it's better if the concentration stays the same instead of decreasing from a pwc.


It's great that you were able to get some other foods for him. Ironically he may not realize that they are food at first, but wiggling a few fresh bloodworms around at the end of a toothpick like they're alive should help entice him. If you have the time, stick with him for a good fifteen minutes or even longer to make absolutely sure he isn't interested.

He will hopefully also be more interested in food once his water is cleaner, as RussellTST said, though it may still take another day or so for him to actually start feeling better.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> Oh no, I'm sorry he's still not doing well, I wish I'd checked the forum sooner in the day.
> 
> Absolutely do a few smaller water changes until the Nitrite is cleared- changing 25% is usually not too stressful, and you'll want to do a few rounds of changes with an hour or two between them to give him a chance to settle. Make sure the new water is the same temperature as his tank and that you add it slowly so you don't upset him.
> 
> ...


Hi! Thanks for getting back to me

I checked the water straight from the tap, and it is drastically better than what’s in his tank. Completely on the other end of the spectrum.
I changed out a bit more water, and added a tiny bit of Tetra SafeStart that is supposed to “reduce ammonia and nitrite.” Hopefully, that’s okay?

Since I first posted, I have been changing out about 25-50% of the water every Sunday and Wednesday. There is also no poop in the tank, and I’ve been removing all the pellets and other foods he hasn’t been eating.

I have no idea what I’m doing wrong. I didn’t add the water conditioner today, because I thought maybe that was having a detrimental effect on the water quality. I don’t know if that was a good decision or not. There is no chlorine in the tap water (according to the test strip), and I know our city does not add fluoride to the water.

I found a page online about nitrate poisoning and his symptoms seem to match, including the curved spine. But the only suggestion it had was to slowly change out water. I feel like I’m making it worse with all the water changes. Ugh 😞


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## nospam666 (Apr 18, 2020)

Keep up the water changes. I'd do them daily.

Hope he recovers soon.


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

michelleminnette said:


> I feel like I’m making it worse with all the water changes.


If I may ask, why? What's happening? The water changes are your/his friend now and for future


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Tetra Safestart is a bacteria supplement, it's used to establish a cycle in a tank. If you've been adding it this past week that may be where the Nitrites are coming from- part of the nitrogen cycle involves Beneficial Bacteria "eating" Ammonia and turning it into Nitrite. The Safestart contains some of those BB, which means they'll start to produce Nitrite. Since you don't have a filter in your tank, the BB are unlikely to survive for very long- they need a lot of water flow, which is hard to achieve without a filter of some sort.

I would stop adding the Safestart unless you decide to start using a filter. The Nitrite they're producing is actually more toxic than just Ammonia and could easily be what is affecting your betta right now.

If today was the first time you added the Safestart, it's more unusual but still possible for the Nitrites to have built up from earlier. My advice is still to stop using it, unless you add a filter, because any benefit will be temporary and IMO you'd be better off focusing on regular water changes.


However, you _do_ always need to use a regular water conditioner. I believe test strips may not measure Chloramine, a much more stable compound used by many water companies nowadays, which can only be neutralized by a conditioner. Additionally, most conditioners will bind to heavy metals which may be in your water and can cause harm to fish. I've never heard of a conditioner causing a bad reaction in any type of fish unless massively overdosed so IMO it's always better to be safe than sorry and add it.


Water changes if done correctly- temperature matched, poured in gently, not too large a change at once- will usually _not_ cause any problems, even to a sick betta. If your betta is showing signs of stress or becomes worse after a water change, it typically means you need to change a smaller amount next time or add it back in more gently... Or they were getting worse for other reasons, and it's a coincidence you noticed it after a water change.

(It can also mean that there's something different in your water source- a change in pH, or the water company trying a new treatment, etc. This is definitely less likely but still a possibility, especially if you've noticed a change in taste when drinking from your tap. Most changes can be adapted to by fish if introduced slowly, but temporarily switching to bottled water may be a good idea if you suspect the quality has become dangerous)


From my understanding, if it is Nitrite/Nitrate poisoning that's the culprit in your tank, the only cure really is to just give the fish clean water and hope their body heals itself. If you _already_ have some at hand then Methylene Blue can be used to increase a fish's ability to carry oxygen despite the Nitrite/Nitrate, increasing the odds of them surviving in the short-term. But by the time you get some at a store or through an online order, the majority of the damage is already done and the substances should have been removed via water changes anyway. It doesn't really help much in the aftermath once the Nitrite/Nitrate is removed, just if you can dose it during a crisis.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

It’s not looking good for thisnl


Mbpoppy said:


> If I may ask, why? What's happening? The water changes are your/his friend now and for future


I feel like he’s unhealthy already and I’m just stressing him out more.
I’m definitely still doing them, just feel bad for this poor little guy. He’s not doing very well at the moment. ☹


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

I'm so sorry, hang in there!!


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Hey sorry I wasn’t receiving notifications for some reason. That was the first time I put the SafeStart in. I won’t add anymore. The water quality is better today, but I’m pretty sure he’s dead/dying right now. Just lying on the bottom of the tank like in the pic above.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> Tetra Safestart is a bacteria supplement, it's used to establish a cycle in a tank. If you've been adding it this past week that may be where the Nitrites are coming from- part of the nitrogen cycle involves Beneficial Bacteria "eating" Ammonia and turning it into Nitrite. The Safestart contains some of those BB, which means they'll start to produce Nitrite. Since you don't have a filter in your tank, the BB are unlikely to survive for very long- they need a lot of water flow, which is hard to achieve without a filter of some sort.
> 
> I would stop adding the Safestart unless you decide to start using a filter. The Nitrite they're producing is actually more toxic than just Ammonia and could easily be what is affecting your betta right now.
> 
> ...


Oops this was supposed to be a response to you

Hey sorry I wasn’t receiving notifications for some reason. That was the first time I put the SafeStart in. I won’t add anymore. The water quality is better today, but I’m pretty sure he’s dead/dying right now. Just lying on the bottom of the tank like in the pic above.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Okay, well, he’s definitely dead. 😞

Thanks for all your help, anyway, guys.

I’m not really sure what I did wrong. I had one of these fish before, never really did anything for it apart from feeding it and cleaning the tank every now and then, and that bastard lives for years. I tried so hard to keep this one alive and it didn’t last a month.

You think it was the crappy tank? Any suggestions for a better tank if I decide to get a new one? I have all of this stuff now. . . 😞


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Sorry you lost Mushu.

However, I've had these guys for 50+ years and often it's nothing we did or didn't do. Sometimes they come to us asymptomatic of whatever and going from store to home can trigger the ailment. Most diseases take around 10 days to show symptoms.

I've even had Betta that were eating and active when I turned out the lights be dead when I turn themed back on.

These are fragile creatures and succumb to things we can only pinpoint if a postmortem is done.

We see your situation quite often on this Forum so do not blame yourself.

I would suggest that when you get another Betta you get:

1. A tank at least 2.5 gallons. But with a five you will find it much easier to keep healthy parameters.

2. An adjustable heater. Hydor makes one that will fit smaller tanks. 25 or 50 watt. I have a 50 in my 2.5 tank.

3. SeaChem Prime water conditioner

4. A filter...or not. A heater is more important if you need to budget and can be added later.

5. A liquid Ammonia test if available; strips if not. Liquid tests are more cost effective.

6. NorthFin Betta Bits, New Life Spectrum or Omega One. I feed NorthFin, Fluval Bug Bites and frozen Bloodworms, Mini Bloodworms (mosquito larva) and Brine shrimp. But strictly pellets are fine; I just happen to have nine Betta.  

Again, so sorry, but I will reiterate: Do not blame yourself. This has happened to all of us.


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

I'm so sorry! You were doing your best and reaching out for advice, which means the loss of your boy was not your fault so please don't feel bad or guilty.

Sometimes despite everything we do, a betta just doesn't make it. They're not bred with a lot of care regarding health, and the stress of being shipped from the breeder and displayed in cups at the store, or transferring from store to your house, can sometimes bring out problems even if they seemed healthy when you picked them out.


Looking back through the thread, I would not be surprised if he had a bacterial infection or another underlying condition which was exacerbated by the water conditions shown on your tests, and he just couldn't fight it off, especially once he stopped eating.


A 1.5g is pretty small, but can still be healthy with proper care so if you want to keep another betta in the same tank, you absolutely can. Just rinse everything with hot tap water, and you can use either a bit of bleach or vinegar to sanitize the tank itself, as well as any plants or decorations. Gravel can be boiled- but in a small tank like yours, not using gravel at all will actually increase the amount of space available by a bit.

Most fish diseases won't survive being bleached, especially if you allow everything to sit dry for a week or two afterwards, so don't worry about harming a new betta by using the same equipment. The bigger concern is making sure you test your water frequently and keep on top of water changes.

If you do have the space and budget for a larger tank, they are actually _less_ work because the more water you have, the more diluted waste and any pathogens become. A filter helps even more with reducing maintenance but I agree with RtST, it would be better to have a heater instead of a filter if you can only afford one at first.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Sorry you lost Mushu.
> 
> However, I've had these guys for 50+ years and often it's nothing we did or didn't do. Sometimes they come to us asymptomatic of whatever and going from store to home can trigger the ailment. Most diseases take around 10 days to show symptoms.
> 
> ...





Rana said:


> I'm so sorry! You were doing your best and reaching out for advice, which means the loss of your boy was not your fault so please don't feel bad or guilty.
> 
> Sometimes despite everything we do, a betta just doesn't make it. They're not bred with a lot of care regarding health, and the stress of being shipped from the breeder and displayed in cups at the store, or transferring from store to your house, can sometimes bring out problems even if they seemed healthy when you picked them out.
> 
> ...


Thanks, guys. I just feel a bit defeated, I was trying so hard to help him out.

I can afford the filter and heater, I’m just not sure which one to get. Is there a set I can buy that might include everything? Hopefully, I can get something from Amazon. Our local pet store is way overpriced.

Sorry if I’m getting off topic. I can start a new thread, if you think that’s necessary.

And thanks again for all of your advice, I really appreciate it.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I do not like kits. Most people wind up modifying the filter or replacing it and/or replacing the lighting.Most kits do not include a heater so you have to add that into the overall cost.

Do you have a PetCo? They have an in-store-only 5.5 gallon tank for under $20. PetSmart has a 10-gallon TopFin kit with a heater but it's also in-store.

I use 50 watt Hydor heaters in my 2.5 and 5.5 tanks and this filter:









FORZA 5-15 Power Filter PFE-1 - 45GPH


AquaTops FORZA 5-15 Power Filter comes equipped with all the necessary filter media to ensure superior filtration: Mechanical, Chemical & Biological. The 5-15 utilizes a filtration chamber system with replaceable filter pad cartridges enhanced with Aquatops Premium Activated Carbon, and the Bio...




www.aquatop.com





You can use craft mesh or get a glass canopy to cover the tank. They do not make hinged canopies for 2.5 tanks.

Lighting is up to you and depends on whether you are going with live plants. If you are going to have live plants I prefer these. 12" for 2.5; 16" for 5.5; 20" for 10 gallon.


Stingray



They also make a clip-on version.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I do not like kits. Most people wind up modifying the filter or replacing it and/or replacing the lighting.Most kits do not include a heater so you have to add that into the overall cost.
> 
> Do you have a PetCo? They have an in-store-only 5.5 gallon tank for under $20. PetSmart has a 10-gallon TopFin kit with a heater but it's also in-store.
> 
> ...


Yes, Petco is the only pet store we have here unless I drive several hours away. That’s where we bought Mushu and all the stuff I got yesterday. I was just looking at their tanks online. We might stop by again tomorrow. They said I could return some of that stuff if he didn’t make it.


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

If you have the space an empty 10g tank is usually only about $15 in a store, making it the most cost effective size. Buying the actual tank online is usually more expensive than buying it in a store, because they are bulky and delicate so sellers don't like shipping them. The same goes for glass lids. But the heater, filter, and decor are all usually much cheaper online because it's no big deal to ship them.

I don't have any specific recommendations for kits, I prefer to assemble my own equipment so I don't pay attention to kits really. But there are definitely some really neat-looking and conveniently bundled ones out there, in a variety of sizes, so if you do want one I am sure making a thread looking for recommendations would get you a lot of replies.


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Rana said:


> If you have the space an empty 10g tank is usually only about $15 in a store, making it the most cost effective size. Buying the actual tank online is usually more expensive than buying it in a store, because they are bulky and delicate so sellers don't like shipping them. The same goes for glass lids. But the heater, filter, and decor are all usually much cheaper online because it's no big deal to ship them.
> 
> I don't have any specific recommendations for kits, I prefer to assemble my own equipment so I don't pay attention to kits really. But there are definitely some really neat-looking and conveniently bundled ones out there, in a variety of sizes, so if you do want one I am sure making a thread looking for recommendations would get you a lot of replies.


Okay, thanks! I’ve been looking at a few things online. We might stop by Petco again tomorrow after my husband gets home from work. Strangely enough, a lot of things are cheaper to buy and ship here from Amazon (Prime) than they are to buy in the store. Most things in Alaska are ridiculously expensive, unfortunately. So, Amazon Prime is really worth it here, you just can’t get the fast shipping like you can elsewhere. We even buy our tires from Amazon. I paid 133% more for 25 of those water test strips than you can get for the price of 100 on Amazon. 😆 Anyway, Petco says they will price match Amazon so that might be easier. Anyway, I’m rambling now. Thanks again!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

PetCo sells Aqueon tanks. So if you get a canopy make double sure it is Aqueon/Versa and NOT Marineland or it won't fit. Most of the negative reviews are about the Aqueon lids not fitting and I'll bet dollars to donuts the people have Marineland or another brand of tank.

I've only ordered one tank online and it had a hairline crack and leaked so I don't do that any more. Returning a tank is a real bear.



https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/fish/fish-aquariums-kits/aquariums-up-to-ten-gallons/aqueon-standard-glass-aquarium-tank-55-gallon





https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/aqueon-versa-top-hinged-glass-aquarium-top-16-l



Ten is less than a 5.5


https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/fish/fish-aquariums-kits/aquariums-up-to-ten-gallons/aqueon-standard-glass-aquarium-tank-10-gallon





https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/aqueon-versa-top-hinged-glass-aquarium-top-20-l


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## areese (Mar 8, 2020)

I bought some 10 gallons from Petco and then bought there Aqueon delux led hoods. They are a little pricey about $40. but they hinge up in the middle which is nice that you don't have to remove the whole lid when you need to get in the tank. They have led tubes and a place to add an additional light if you like. Some of the hoods have small led lights that burn out and can't be replace and only a little flap to feed the fish. With a glass hood you need to buy a light for it and I find that inconvienient but that is just a preference.


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## areese (Mar 8, 2020)

Buy the tank and hood from Petco get the heaters and filters from Amazon. Chewy.com has a good price on the API master test kit. Petco I think will match prices to what you find on line. Trick is if they carry what you want  If you decide to go with a ten gallon I like the aqueon 100w adjustable pro heater because it is not glass and has been reliable so far.


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi! I've been thinking about you  How are things?


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## michelleminnette (Apr 18, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Hi! I've been thinking about you  How are things?


Hey, thanks for checking in 

I had finals this week, so I was too busy to go to the store. Might go buy a tank later today or tomorrow. Thinking about getting everything set up and working properly before I get a new betta.


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

michelleminnette said:


> I had finals this week,


I hope things went well for you! Let us know how things go with your new setup


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