# Groundcover?



## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi all, I would like to ask a question. I'll try to give you some background without writing a book!









I am sort of new to planted tanks, I've had one for about a year but the only thing still growing in it is wenditti. I have 2 other tanks that are fairly new, one about 3 months and one about 3 weeks old. All are 24" long, 9" wide (front to back), 9" deep (more like 8" after substrate) and have various low tech plants.

All the tanks have white sand substrate, HOB filter, 1 Betta, 1 Zebra snail, 1 Ghost Shrimp, and multiple MTS in all three tanks. They are all cycled and are kept between 78-80F using a heater. 2 of the tanks have a few thin pieces of driftwood (this is fairly new, about a month).

The lighting is an Aqueon Floramax Plant Growth 18" long 15w-T8 bulb. The box doesn't state what the kelvin rating is but the guy at the store told me 6700K. The hood where the bulb resides does not have a reflector (although the inside where the bulb sits is white). The tank does have a clear plastic "cover" that the light hood sits on so the light does have to "travel" through this. 

I do NOT have c02 and really don't want to get into all of that because I'm still learning everything and it all seems way to complicated at this point for me...maybe someday but from what I've read it's easy to kill your fish and it's hard to regulate when using co2. So, that being said...

My question is....
I really LOVE the look of "carpet" all over the substrate but can't seem to get anything growing. I tried dwarf hairgrass (wouldn't stay planted, probably had something to do with the MTS or the Ghost Shrimp uprooting them). I also tried regular hairgrass which has all died, probably because I just read today that it needs co2. I didn't like the regular hairgrass anyway because it was too tall for my tank, even my wenditti is 2/3rds up the tank. I would like something low, or at least something I could trim to keep low. 

So *IS *there a plant that will cover the substrate like carpet for my setup?

Thanks so much for any help you can give me! Please let me know if I can tell you anything else about my setup that may help.

PS: My Christmas moss is also dying (or dead) maybe because the water is too warm? I've read that the moss would "adjust" to the temp, but I've also read that it won't. The guy that sold it to me said it would be fine in 80F, the web says otherwise but isn't that how it alway goes! lol


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## themountain (May 9, 2013)

For groundcovering plants you need a lot of light...your one 15w bulb won´t cover that . If its possible get another one or switch to LED.
CO² isn´t a mistery...read this as a starter
http://www.dennerle.eu/global/index...category&layout=blog&id=58&Itemid=112&lang=en

cheers ANDY


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Thanks Andy for your reply. I wasn't sure if the 15w would be enough or not. I thought that it was the kelvin rating that was more important in a low tech tank? This is the bulb the LFS guy recommended for my tank. 

Anyway... I have been reading about co2 all morning and it's got my brain rattled. To be honest I really don't want to deal with co2 and all it's complications...it seems the more I read about it the more questions I have! LOL

Oh well... maybe I won't be able to have a ground cover after all because if I increase my lights, I'll probably kill off the plants that _are_ doing well...


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Is your substrate just straight sand? If so, that is probably why you have also been struggling. Most of the popular foreground plants prefer a nutrient rich substrate to grow.

Have you thought about just making some slate/mesh squares and tying down some moss to them (java, xmas, Taiwan) and using that as a carpet? It may take longer to grow in, but it would be a lot more low tech than other options.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Is your substrate just straight sand? If so, that is probably why you have also been struggling. Most of the popular foreground plants prefer a nutrient rich substrate to grow.
> 
> Have you thought about just making some slate/mesh squares and tying down some moss to them (java, xmas, Taiwan) and using that as a carpet? It may take longer to grow in, but it would be a lot more low tech than other options.


Thanks, Actually no, I hadnt thought of that.... its something to think about, either that or put some nutient rich substrate under the sand...


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## KohakuRiver (Apr 21, 2013)

For my small tank I tore apart a moss ball and sort of stuck it to the ground like a puzzle. It may take more than one for yours though.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

I use java moss or susswassertang when I want a carpet. LBF's suggestion of a mesh is a great one, though I'm too lazy and just let it get a bit crazy.


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## Gallium (May 14, 2013)

An easy option for a carpet is just general mosses, java moss does alright. You'll want to sandwich the moss between two layers of mesh and leave a teeny bit of space between the mosswich and the sand to let some flow through there. 

Believe it or not you can also make a carpet out of jungle val! Just give them 1" or LESS of low-nutrient substrate and I find they generally only grow about 3" long, but will continue to spread around. 

I've also have good luck with microsword without c02 or high light, but it may have just been luck in that tank.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Thank you all for the great suggestions! I appreciate all the input.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I had that bulb and to be honest I wasn't impressed with it. I switched to a Life Glow bulb and my growth was much better. That was on my 35 gallon tank. On my 10 & 20 I just have clip-on lamps with 6700k spiral CFL bulbs and they do AWESOME, especially my 10 gallon. I have pygmy chain sword (a 'carpet' plant) and over the span of 2 weeks its sent out two runners, each with multiple plants. 

Crypt Lucens seems to stay quite small, and makes an adorable foreground plant if you can get a lot of it. There's also dwarf sagitarria, which does quite well in low-light set-ups. I have both, but they're in my 35 which is much deeper than 8" lol, not a very good frame of reference, sorry! 

What substrate do you have? IMO sand is the best for a carpet plant, my pygmy chain sword is in Flourite black sand. But truthfully I think any old sand would do, even playsand, as long as you're dosing a liquid fertilizer (Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Plant Supplement has all the nutrients a plant needs), and maybe if you feel like sticking a broken up root tab under them every once in awhile. 

None of my tanks have CO2, I'm too much of a wimp to risk my fish, and I'm also a bit of a believer that fish produce enough CO2 for average plants to grow just fine.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Thanks Jen!, I'm still new to all these plants so I'll have to go look those up to know what they look like! Lol. Thanks for all the info! Appreciate it! 

Yeah the bulb does seems a little dull, but it's a soft light (easier on the migraines) and more white then the horrid yellow some bulbs give off, and the plants seem to do ok. I actually liked the one that came with the tank but it burnt out and there was very little info on the bulb and nothing at all on the box to indentify exactly what kind of bulb it was. Even the manufactureres couldn't tell me how to replace it. I tried three other bulbs before I finally settled on this one.

My substrare is plain white sand from petco. I have used a general all purpose liquid fert when I remember, which is not very often at all actually, I can't remember the name of it at the moment.

I totally agree with you about the co2! Im a wimp too.... i dont feel i know enough yet to not endanger my fish. Im the type that if I cant do it 100% correct then I wait until I have the knowledge to get it right.. my sister on the other hand is the "lets just do it and see what happens!" kind of person, where as I am a "read the directions" type person. Lol 

I'm trying to decide if I want to go through changing out my substrate to a more plant nutrient one with a small amount of my white sand as a cap or just stick with just the sand and get root tabs.....
What do you guys think?


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

That may be your issue, fertilizer is pretty important, I dose 2x a week. Seachem's Flourish Comp is one of the few out there that has all (14? I think?) nutrients plants need, and I've had really good results with it. You could probably get away with 1x a week, and that stuff lasts for infinity haha 

'Enriched' sand/gravel wears out after awhile...be it in a year or 3. I think the same goes for soil though I do believe it lasts longer (feel free to correct me on this anyone!). 

I went with Flourite Black Sand simply because I liked the way it looked, but I have had awesome growth in it. I do believe I will eventually have to start using root tabs on my swords and crypts, since they're heavy root feeders.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Thanks Jen, I think I will get some root tabs and skip changing the substrate for now. Thanks!


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## Gallium (May 14, 2013)

Play sand isn't choice for the aquarium as the grain size isn't uniform(which causes compaction and lessens aeration) and the sand itself if actually very sharp and can cause microscopic cuts on fish and plants. It's also not very clean, and usually has a lot of dirt or tiny debris in it, which can sometimes change the PH or cause a cycle to drag out. 

If you want to use sand definitely go for blasting grit or any other _uniform_ grained sand. Black Diamond Blasting Grit has the benefit of being cheap as well, at only $4-7 for 50 lbs at any tractor supply. Sometimes home depot and lowes carry it as well.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Gallium said:


> Play sand isn't choice for the aquarium as the grain size isn't uniform(which causes compaction and lessens aeration) and the sand itself if actually very sharp and can cause microscopic cuts on fish and plants. It's also not very clean, and usually has a lot of dirt or tiny debris in it, which can sometimes change the PH or cause a cycle to drag out.
> 
> If you want to use sand definitely go for blasting grit or any other _uniform_ grained sand. Black Diamond Blasting Grit has the benefit of being cheap as well, at only $4-7 for 50 lbs at any tractor supply. Sometimes home depot and lowes carry it as well.



I'll have to disagree with you there. I use Quikcrete Playsand, which is very fine and soft, as it's made for children. I have seen no issues with my fish on it. Many of us over at TFK use Quikcrete playsand with much success with both fish (including soft bellied bottom feeders) and plants. It just needs to be rinsed a lot as it can be quite dusty. It takes awhile but I think it's worth it for a $4 50lb bag. To my naked eye it looks quite uniform, although there are regional differences. 

Blasting grit is _made_ to wear away the surface of something. I'd think it'd be much rougher, and I have heard accounts of it hurting bottom feeders. I have not used this sand myself, however.


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## Gallium (May 14, 2013)

The coarse blasting grit will damage bottomfeeders and plants, that is usually the main issue with the blasting grit is that people purchase the wrong screen size. BDBG in extra fine is safe for bottomfeeders and roots.
Quikcrete playsand is very soft but I've never bought a bag that wasn't very, very dusty and with uneven grit size and flakes in it. It is a soft sand but for me personally it's not worth all the washing and straining I have to do to get all the flakes and dust out of it before use, but really it's personal preference I suppose. There are good brands of playsand that are not sharp, but very few of them are sized to ensure even grain quality.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

Do you wash the blasting grit before hand? I will agree that playsand is filthy and a pain to rinse, but it's cheap and I can get it local. 

Just curious, do you live in Canada? I'm finding extreme differences with this sand between USA residents and Canadian. I don't suppose you'd happen to have a picture for comparison?


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

I have petco white sand in my tanks. I've had it for over a year in my first tank, the other two tanks have it also. I have MTS to keep it airated and it works great in my opinion. 

I was trying to decide if I should put some sort of substrate UNDER the sand I already have so I could possibly grown a wider veriety of plants, ie groundcover.

I do have another question though...while reading up on substrates and trying to decide if or what would be the best to add under my sand, I kept reading that people where recommendIng eco complete, hower eco complete is enert, so what's the point if it has no more benificial qualities than sand? Am I missing something?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I just did a quick google on Eco Complete and one of the Australian sellers has this:



> Mineralogically complete means it contains iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements to nourish your aquatic plants.


It doesn't look inert, unless this is not the one you are talking about?


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

Bombalurina said:


> I use java moss or susswassertang when I want a carpet. LBF's suggestion of a mesh is a great one, though I'm too lazy and just let it get a bit crazy.


What sort of substrate do you use? Does your java moss grow on top of it? I had bought what I was told was java moss at petco and tied it to a log, for a while it looked great, was green, growing well, then it just died all of a sudden. But like I said I'm not sure it was real java moss.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I just did a quick google on Eco Complete and one of the Australian sellers has this:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look inert, unless this is not the one you are talking about?


Let me check again where I saw that it said it was... maybe Im mistaken, BRB


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

QUOTE=LittleBettaFish;2099161]I just did a quick google on Eco Complete and one of the Australian sellers has this:



It doesn't look inert, unless this is not the one you are talking about?[/QUOTE]

Let me check again where I saw that it said it was... maybe Im mistaken,

"eco complete is inert hard sediment. So it never needs replacing, however, it can be cleaned and deep vac'ed every 1-2 years or so.Particularly when you have a high bioload like discus.I'd deep vac 1/3 of the tank and replant and rescape each section every week or two.Do not try and do it all in one go, do little bit each week.Regards,*Tom Barr"

It was in a website thetombarrreport...in answer to someone asking if he needed to replace his eco complete after a year...
Dont know, so much conflicting info! Lol


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have never actually used it before or had any experience with it. Maybe someone who has can answer your question.

Wait, read this on Tom Barr's site:



> Has the chemicals, but they are not biologically available in a meaningful way


Sounds like some other products I have read about (ADA included).


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7978-Is-Eco-Complete-inert-substrate-How-come

I saw it here


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I have never actually used it before or had any experience with it. Maybe someone who has can answer your question.
> 
> Wait, read this on Tom Barr's site:
> 
> ...


Cool, thanks!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah someone did a test on some of the ADA substrate additives, and one of them (tourmaline I think it was) was actually non-soluble and didn't provide any benefits at all. 

It might be that these nutrients are present, just not in a form that can be used by plants.


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## Greylady (Jul 15, 2012)

This is interesting too...another take on the whole substrte, fert situation....  

_"You should look at this from the other side. Its not about ADA AS depleting eventually. that would suggest that it is the sole nurtient supply. ADA AS has high CEC and therefore if you are using it in tandem with sufficient water column dosing then it is continuously replenishing itself. It never depletes in that case.Tropica go one further and supply high CEC clay with zero nutrient addition. You are buying the 'sponge' and when you water column dose the 'sponge' sucks in some of the nutrient.So don't worry about depletion or substrates being inert. Concentrate on high CEC substrates coupled with water column dosing and you'll always have both sources actively supplying nutrient both to leaves and to roots. The plant can choose its source then if not useboth"_


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Most of the clay based soils (I think Seachem Flourite is one) have a high CEC. I think that's why clay kitty litters are used by some people as substrate in their tanks.


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## jentralala (Oct 5, 2012)

I had Eco Complete for awhile under Flourite, and I honestly wasn't impressed by it at all. Plus for me it was a pain in the butt to plant in, but that's just me 

I'd also like to caution you with capping Eco Complete with sand- because sand is generally much finer than the EC, it can fall through the gaps and 'push' the EC on top of it, eventually reversing itself in a way. I had this happen to me, and it was really annoying. I've heard of people doing it successfully but that wasn't my personal experience. 

I _think_ that Flourite Black Sand is just crushed up Flourite chips, so maybe that's why I have good growth with it, in tandem with my slight over fertilizing. 

You could also go the route of a NPT (soil based tank), although I'm not sure if that's safe if the tank already has fish in it...soil has to stabilize before fish can be added, from what I've heard.

Anyways, sorry for the ramble! Good luck with whatever you choose to do, and I hope to see pictures!


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

i thought flourite has a low cec XD you guys just gave me a reason to read up more on substrates


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