# Worth Breeding



## Dwarden3

I know he probably isn't, but I just want to start getting an idea of what is good in a breeding fish before I end up with hundreds of poorly bred fry. He is a crowntail male, about 9 months old.


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## MattsBettas

Do you have any good side flaring pics that aren't just a silhouette?


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## Dwarden3

*Better?*



MattsBettas said:


> Do you have any good side flaring pics that aren't just a silhouette?


Is this a better image?


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## tngirl92

I think he's pretty!


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## BeautifulBetta123

Not breeding quality, he has a very poor spread, and uneven rays, his fins look scraggly and rays are to long and thin IMO.
His colour has a red wash which again is not good. 
Definitely not a breeding quality fish but a nice pet non the less.


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## Dwarden3

Thanks! I am new to this, what do you mean by poor spread? Also, this picture is a couple of months old. Sigmund( the betta) is getting kinda old now, so he can't really be bred anyway. I really want to research breeding while Sigmund is alive, and then give it a shot when he passes. Also, how do you properly cull before you can see characteristics? Do you have any other advice?


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## Dwarden3

BeautifulBetta123 said:


> Not breeding quality, he has a very poor spread, and uneven rays, his fins look scraggly and rays are to long and thin IMO.
> His colour has a red wash which again is not good.
> Definitely not a breeding quality fish but a nice pet non the less.


Do you have any advice or responses to my post before this one?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Poor spread means he has a poor spread on his caudal XD
Now a days in the show business every thing needs to have a 180 degree spread in there caudal (tail)
You fish is very far from it. I can post a pic of a ct with finnage I like if you want.
The red wash is not good, you never want red wash and are docked points for it in a show it is fairly hard to work out of a line.
You can not cull properly before you see characteristics, many breeders don't cull at all, others cull hundreds to get the best five fish. I personally only will cull fish with extreme deformities that will affect there quality of life. Who cares if the fish has a causal that is not the perfect shape? He still may be breed quality or a great pet!
So once the fish begin to grow there fins and show characteristics you may begin to cull, as you become a more experienced breeder you will get an eye for fish with good and bad fins. I wish you the best of luck and I am no expert so listen to lots of other people too a great person to contact about info on this stuff is BasementBettas.
Post a spawn log when you have a nice pair and are prepared to spawn!


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## Dwarden3

BeautifulBetta123 said:


> Poor spread means he has a poor spread on his caudal XD
> Now a days in the show business every thing needs to have a 180 degree spread in there caudal (tail)
> You fish is very far from it. I can post a pic of a ct with finnage I like if you want.
> The red wash is not good, you never want red wash and are docked points for it in a show it is fairly hard to work out of a line.
> You can not cull properly before you see characteristics, many breeders don't cull at all, others cull hundreds to get the best five fish. I personally only will cull fish with extreme deformities that will affect there quality of life. Who cares if the fish has a causal that is not the perfect shape? He still may be breed quality or a great pet!
> So once the fish begin to grow there fins and show characteristics you may begin to cull, as you become a more experienced breeder you will get an eye for fish with good and bad fins. I wish you the best of luck and I am no expert so listen to lots of other people too a great person to contact about info on this stuff is BasementBettas.
> Post a spawn log when you have a nice pair and are prepared to spawn!


Wouldn't a 180 degree caudal fin make it a halfmoon? The strain I want to make one day is a Rosetail with spiked rays like a CT. I'd love to see a photo of a CT with nice finnage if it is no trouble. Also, Sigmund (the betta in the photo) wasn't flaring very well in that picture. I don't know how to make him flare for pictures.


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## BeautifulBetta123

To be show worthy it should have a 180 spread, it is still a ct but has a good spread.
This betta (random pic off google) has a nice spread and even rays, I like this boy 
As for making him flare for pics, there are lots of different ways, try floating another fish in a cup in his tank, or put a mirror by him.


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## Dwarden3

Thanks a ton! You have been really helpful. I don't know much about betta genetics, do you?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Sorry but I am not a big time breeder or even a shower, mainly because there is no shows in canada ;-) the guy for genetics is Indjo he is a super moderator, try contact him he can answer all your questions.l
Looking forward o seeing how everything works out for you


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## Dwarden3

BeautifulBetta123 said:


> Sorry but I am not a big time breeder or even a shower, mainly because there is no shows in canada ;-) the guy for genetics is Indjo he is a super moderator, try contact him he can answer all your questions.l
> Looking forward o seeing how everything works out for you


Are there a good number of shows anywhere?


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## BeautifulBetta123

In the U.S yes but Canada no, I don't know a lot about the whole circuit because it is not in my country but there are shows all over that you can ship too. Try research it because I am not a ver reliable piece of information.


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## Dwarden3

BeautifulBetta123 said:


> In the U.S yes but Canada no, I don't know a lot about the whole circuit because it is not in my country but there are shows all over that you can ship too. Try research it because I am not a ver reliable piece of information.


what is the purpose of the shows? competition? buy/sell/trade? are there cash prizes? or is it just to show them off and talk genes?


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## BeautifulBetta123

You collect points for winning, there are auctions often after that you can buy or sell fish in, it is a great way to prove you have quality fish and become a better known breeder. I don't know about prizes but you get a plack and ribbons to display in your fish room.


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## MattsBettas

Bb123 is telling you most of what you need to know, but just to be clear, it would be rather cruel to start a rosetail line. They may look nice, but the excessive finance really weighs down the fish and you would get a ton of x factors- fry with really bad deformities that are caused by breeding rosetails. So I would stay away from breeding them.


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## Dwarden3

MattsBettas said:


> Bb123 is telling you most of what you need to know, but just to be clear, it would be rather cruel to start a rosetail line. They may look nice, but the excessive finance really weighs down the fish and you would get a ton of x factors- fry with really bad deformities that are caused by breeding rosetails. So I would stay away from breeding them.


I was thinking about a caudal fin that begins as a rosetail, but then becomes a CT very quickly. Kinda like a long-rayed combtail, but with a rosetail base instead of a Hm base. Could that work?


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## MattsBettas

I don't really know what you mean but x factors would happen in all rosetails.


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## Dwarden3

MattsBettas said:


> I don't really know what you mean but x factors would happen in all rosetails.


I suppose I want a feather/ combtail with longer rays, if that makes sense.


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## MattsBettas

The x factor is a genetic thing- the rosetail genes would still be there.


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## Dwarden3

MattsBettas said:


> The x factor is a genetic thing- the rosetail genes would still be there.


but is it possible to introduce the spikiness of a CT?


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## MattsBettas

Yup. It would take a few generations and at first they would look messy, but yes. Imo much Beyer to just buy a nice ct pair to begin with.


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## Dwarden3

MattsBettas said:


> Yup. It would take a few generations and at first they would look messy, but yes. Imo much Beyer to just buy a nice ct pair to begin with.


So you think it'd be better to get CTs and work toward the rosetail shape? or do a CTxCT for F1, then do an F1xP for F2, then do an F2xRosetail for F3, then continue doing crosses with siblings until the desired form? I thought about that, but I also thought that it might be better to introduce the Rosetail first that way all F1s have the Rosetail genes.


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## aemaki09

I dont understand why you are so set in a rosetail shape?

Earlier in this thread you said something along the lines of "I'd like to know what I'm doing now rather than ending up with a ton of poorly bred fish later on" 

well, honestly, anything with rosetail genetics will have some deformities in the line. Rosetailing itself is a deformity and is not saught after. You may think it's pretty, and you may get a few sales..but you will not be able to show them, but you wouldnt with a combtail either.


I personally would stay far away from rose and feathertails. Feathertailing is still on the same path as a rose....just has even more rays.

When you mix CT with anything, you end up with the same result as a VT mix. Messy finnage. 

If it were me, I'd stick with CT, or maybe try to make a CTPK line..or even try to push some HM lines into the CT to see if you can get a better tail spread...but I would avoid the idea of a Rose/Feather-anything.


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## veggiegirl

If you are looking to show I do not think that rosetails are even showable. I have a rosetail but he cannot even flare properly because his tail is so heavy.


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## Dwarden3

aemaki09 said:


> I dont understand why you are so set in a rosetail shape?
> 
> Earlier in this thread you said something along the lines of "I'd like to know what I'm doing now rather than ending up with a ton of poorly bred fish later on"
> 
> well, honestly, anything with rosetail genetics will have some deformities in the line. Rosetailing itself is a deformity and is not saught after. You may think it's pretty, and you may get a few sales..but you will not be able to show them, but you wouldnt with a combtail either.
> 
> 
> I personally would stay far away from rose and feathertails. Feathertailing is still on the same path as a rose....just has even more rays.
> 
> When you mix CT with anything, you end up with the same result as a VT mix. Messy finnage.
> 
> If it were me, I'd stick with CT, or maybe try to make a CTPK line..or even try to push some HM lines into the CT to see if you can get a better tail spread...but I would avoid the idea of a Rose/Feather-anything.


Thanks for the info! I was just thinking about traits that haven't been pursued yet. I really like the spikes on a CT, but I also love the shape of an HM. I suppose I have a while to decide if I want to make only CTs or only HMs or make some sort of hybrid cross between the two. 

I was thinking a CTxrosetail because the Rosetail/feathertail already has the ray like shape. So I was thinking to introduce rosetail into a CT in order to make a slight alteration in the finage of CT line. It could work, or it could end in messy finage. I was hoping to try to make a crowntail with certain aspects of the Rosetail, and in turn, breed out the problems of weight in the Rosetail. I have a while to decide. I don't know much about betta genetics, so I am still learning. Thank you for your input.


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## caissacrowntails

Dwarden3 said:


> Thanks for the info! I was just thinking about traits that haven't been pursued yet. I really like the spikes on a CT, but I also love the shape of an HM. I suppose I have a while to decide if I want to make only CTs or only HMs or make some sort of hybrid cross between the two.
> 
> I was thinking a CTxrosetail because the Rosetail/feathertail already has the ray like shape. So I was thinking to introduce rosetail into a CT in order to make a slight alteration in the finage of CT line. It could work, or it could end in messy finage. I was hoping to try to make a crowntail with certain aspects of the Rosetail, and in turn, breed out the problems of weight in the Rosetail. I have a while to decide. I don't know much about betta genetics, so I am still learning. Thank you for your input.


If u're thinking about crossrays..then fyi, it's not from rosetail gene. I actually know some who tried your idea, afterall rosetails and cts are not "new". 
There's a simple reason why cts don't have say ..Over-Halfmoon spreads (if there is, obviously not many)..cos physically, given the "web reducing" traits, it will be harder for ct's to "hold" their caudals ( even with regular ct's, people are still struggling to keep the rays straight, so u can imagine how it's gonna be on rosetails-ct LOL ).

Overall I think it's probably better to "use" OHMPK instead of rosetails. And work "the biggest spread ever on CT" on PKCT line instead.That will be something like "OHM-PK-CT" LOL...


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## Dwarden3

caissacrowntails said:


> If u're thinking about crossrays..then fyi, it's not from rosetail gene. I actually know some who tried your idea, afterall rosetails and cts are not "new".
> There's a simple reason why cts don't have say ..Over-Halfmoon spreads (if there is, obviously not many)..cos physically, given the "web reducing" traits, it will be harder for ct's to "hold" their caudals ( even with regular ct's, people are still struggling to keep the rays straight, so u can imagine how it's gonna be on rosetails-ct LOL ).
> 
> Overall I think it's probably better to "use" OHMPK instead of rosetails. And work "the biggest spread ever on CT" on PKCT line instead.That will be something like "OHM-PK-CT" LOL...


What about a roundtail with extended rays like a CT? I am just throwing out ideas.


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## Fenghuang

If I'm understanding you correctly, what you want has been done before. A rosetail/feathertails is a halfmoon with extreme branchings, so it'll just be a rosetail/feathertail HMxCT, or a combtail. I think even if you go ahead and do it, you won't see much of the results. Rosetails/feathertails are prone to blowing out their fins from swimming and flaring as well as tail biting and simply ripping them on things. And the heavy fins limit their quality of life.

Also, have you seen x-factor scaling? It's a mess. You're pretty much guaranteed to get that breeding rosetail/feathertails.


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## Dwarden3

Fenghuang said:


> If I'm understanding you correctly, what you want has been done before. A rosetail/feathertails is a halfmoon with extreme branchings, so it'll just be a rosetail/feathertail HMxCT, or a combtail. I think even if you go ahead and do it, you won't see much of the results. Rosetails/feathertails are prone to blowing out their fins from swimming and flaring as well as tail biting and simply ripping them on things. And the heavy fins limit their quality of life.
> 
> Also, have you seen x-factor scaling? It's a mess. You're pretty much guaranteed to get that breeding rosetail/feathertails.


So then what is wanted on the breeding circuit? I want to take something desirable and enhance its traits. I was just thinking a rosetailxct would be interesting, but I am open to a anything.


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## caissacrowntails

like fenghuang said...it's really nothing new at all, most have been tried before. And all those "combo" only resulted in "intermediate" forms like combtails, halfsuns, even veiltails or roundtails with extended rays, which in the end need to be "improve" or cross back to CT. But since u seem eager to try it, then please do so, who knows if u can actually "create" new form , although I think the early result will probably "contradict" your point on your first post.


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## caissacrowntails

Dwarden3 said:


> So then what is wanted on the breeding circuit? I want to take something desirable and enhance its traits. I was just thinking a rosetailxct would be interesting, but I am open to a anything.


um, what do you mean exactly with "wanted on the breeding circuit"? if u mean "ideal" form for show..then it's up to some standards of "ideal crowntail" like for example IBC standards for crowntails. But if u mean what most people want to breed, then it will be different for each person, as some goes for colors, some for finnages, and this can change later on too.


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## Dwarden3

caissacrowntails said:


> um, what do you mean exactly with "wanted on the breeding circuit"? if u mean "ideal" form for show..then it's up to some standards of "ideal crowntail" like for example IBC standards for crowntails. But if u mean what most people want to breed, then it will be different for each person, as some goes for colors, some for finnages, and this can change later on too.


I just want to know what strains are wanted? which strains are new and hip? etc. I like to innovate and mix odd genes, but at the end of the day if my odd mixes wont work/are useless, then I'd much rather take a strain like a HM and perfect its fins and colour.


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## xShainax

Try CTPK


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## caissacrowntails

well..like shaina said...ctpk is probably..the latest fin type available and widely accepted..and there's "variation" like Elephant Ears/ Dumbo or "forgotten" line like DTCT ( I don't see many of them anymore, in fact..never..lately ).


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## indjo

Why did you make the same thread in different sections?

As implied, any fin type (non CT) can be crossed to CT. F1 will yield uneven web reduction - messy fins. You will have to work yourself to make them actual CT.

Rose tail is a result from breeding excessive ray male to excessive ray female - 8 ray male x 8 ray female. They will often bring out deformities, specially if you inbreed them. It is best to breed "in and out" - create rose, then breed to less ray. NEVER breed rose to rose.

So if you want to try roseCT you have to create good CT then introduce Rose. DO NOT introduce rose in the beginning of your quest since you will need to inbreed. . . . unless you have 20 - 50 unrelated bettas to choose from. 

It is best to create your own rose instead of buying them. That way you'd know if they carry deformities in which case you'd best cull every single one of them (including the healthy ones because they are carriers). It is possible to breed out deformities in roses (not sure how though). We have a few here (forgot who). Never the less, I still believe it's best not to inbreed them nor to breed to another excessive ray.


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## Dwarden3

indjo said:


> Why did you make the same thread in different sections?
> 
> As implied, any fin type (non CT) can be crossed to CT. F1 will yield uneven web reduction - messy fins. You will have to work yourself to make them actual CT.
> 
> Rose tail is a result from breeding excessive ray male to excessive ray female - 8 ray male x 8 ray female. They will often bring out deformities, specially if you inbreed them. It is best to breed "in and out" - create rose, then breed to less ray. NEVER breed rose to rose.
> 
> So if you want to try roseCT you have to create good CT then introduce Rose. DO NOT introduce rose in the beginning of your quest since you will need to inbreed. . . . unless you have 20 - 50 unrelated bettas to choose from.
> 
> It is best to create your own rose instead of buying them. That way you'd know if they carry deformities in which case you'd best cull every single one of them (including the healthy ones because they are carriers). It is possible to breed out deformities in roses (not sure how though). We have a few here (forgot who). Never the less, I still believe it's best not to inbreed them nor to breed to another excessive ray.


So would it be possible to make a nice CT, HM, or CTHM line, then introduce the rosetail and then only breed with your strain until you get the Desired trait? Would it be possible to make a very short rosetail but it also has very long rays? Like a CT, but with the first 1/3 of the being like that of a rosetail. I am just throwing around idea. I would like to do something like that if it would make an interesting specimen. If such cross breeding would make undesirable/worthless fry then I would rather just spend my time perfecting a CT or HM line. 

I posted twice because I saw that one thread group had a lot more activity than the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## indjo

There is nothing definite in regards to betta keeping. There are always new mutations, new methods, etc. So what your suggesting is possible. But it will take you many generations - thousands of bettas. . . . unless of course you are very lucky and achieve the first step in one or two generations. 

Like I said, I'm not a fan of CT thus have very limited experience with them and never experimented on them. You would have to ask cassaicrowntail who specializes in CT. Theoretically it is possible but I don't know how to go about it.

Whether it would be worth the effort depends on you. No one knew how people would accept CT. They just worked on something new and kept developing it. And now CT are accepted by many. SO I can't answer this question. It's up to you.

For future postings; 
This section is supposed to be dedicated for show - show quality, show developing/improving, etc. I will answer the same question differently in this section and in the breeding section. So in the future, I'd appreciate it if you asked experimental questions in the breeding section. Only ask show related questions here.


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## caissacrowntails

indjo said:


> There is nothing definite in regards to betta keeping. There are always new mutations, new methods, etc. So what your suggesting is possible. But it will take you many generations - thousands of bettas. . . . unless of course you are very lucky and achieve the first step in one or two generations.
> 
> Like I said, I'm not a fan of CT thus have very limited experience with them and never experimented on them. You would have to ask cassaicrowntail who specializes in CT. Theoretically it is possible but I don't know how to go about it.
> 
> Whether it would be worth the effort depends on you. No one knew how people would accept CT. They just worked on something new and kept developing it. And now CT are accepted by many. SO I can't answer this question. It's up to you."
> 
> For future postings;
> This section is supposed to be dedicated for show - show quality, show developing/improving, etc. I will answer the same question differently in this section and in the breeding section. So in the future, I'd appreciate it if you asked experimental questions in the breeding section. Only ask show related questions here.



Is it possible to "merge" post, Indjo? and like Indjo said..I also think that there are a lot of "unknown" traits/colors waiting to be discover, but..like I said before..u were saying "I know he probably isn't, but I just want to start getting an idea of what is good in a breeding fish *before I end up with hundreds of poorly bred fry*." "experimenting" to get "new traits/colors" will result in..perhaps *thousands* of "undesirable" individuals ( in show standard term ).


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## Dwarden3

caissacrowntails said:


> Is it possible to "merge" post, Indjo? and like Indjo said..I also think that there are a lot of "unknown" traits/colors waiting to be discover, but..like I said before..u were saying "I know he probably isn't, but I just want to start getting an idea of what is good in a breeding fish *before I end up with hundreds of poorly bred fry*." "experimenting" to get "new traits/colors" will result in..perhaps *thousands* of "undesirable" individuals ( in show standard term ).


what I meant by that was that I didn't want to breed a CT with really bad traits. I am ok with experimenting with good traits in order to find new ones, sometimes it must be done. I just didnt want to choose bad starter stock.


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## caissacrowntails

Dwarden3 said:


> what I meant by that was that I didn't want to breed a CT with really bad traits. I am ok with experimenting with good traits in order to find new ones, sometimes it must be done. I just didnt want to choose bad starter stock.


well...then I think if u're willing to spend ( time, efforts, and of course money for foods, equipments, utilities bill etc. ), then probably worth to try, just remember that it's a long time commitment, probably several years before u get something "good enough".


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