# More Vile "Betta Homes"



## Franzilla 806

I made a new thread to showcase what I feel to be cruel enclosures for poor Betta's that have no say in the matter. Please click the link below to see what got me fuming.

The hanging one below is just plain not safe! :shock:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73789


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## Amitisti

*shutter*
hate them all
the square Marna one is what lps to house their bettas and it is the big seller for new betta owners


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## Sivan

The one that is a cup of water and the iPod one bug me the most. D:< How do these things even make it to the market? Whatever happened to animal safety? Since when don't fish count? These are all upsetting.


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## FiShFiShFiShFiSh

i read an article about the Ipond one time, how pet stores stopped selling it becuase of so many complaints. but it's true, imagine being in a cup of water with music blasting loud all the time? and sound travels faster and is louder in water >:O I also especially hate the two penn plax ones, and there is something about thembeing able to drain water from the bottom? That is very unsafe even for a quality product, not to mention cheap plastic tanks. If there was a leak, your fish could suffocate without any water, because the drainer is on the bottom. I believe the marina kits, the popular ones, are fine for a week or two for new owners, if they clean the tank daily, until they can get a bigger aquarium. And the first one, next to the Pineapple, Doesn't even have a lid?! The water is filled to the top. These are horrible. Betta fish are living creatures, not converstaion peices or decorations! They COULD be conversation peices more likely if they were in a nice tank, with a filter and everything, they would be mkore healthy and happy and colorful, not just sittng there. I firmly believe what these things are: CRUELTY!


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## Luimeril

the ipod one, if i'm not mistaking, was discontinued after animal welfare activists pitched a fit about them. Dx

thankfully, Pet Lover's doesn't house too many bettas in those half-gallon divided things. when they do, it's the beautiful HMs(to give them more room to spread their fins), and they don't offer a package deal(the fish plus the tank for x-amount). at least, they didn't to me.


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## Arashi Takamine

These are just ridiculous. The Aquablock is the worst. (Sent them a rather 'interesting' email about how their product hurt Akira and caused his fins to be shredded. That plant looks so sharp it could take out an eye!) I included proper tank size and temperature as well as telling them that they're wrong. If I get a response apologizing and trying to give me false information...I'm telling them flat out what crap it is.


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## Luimeril

i find it odd, that the guys at Pet Lovers don't push the half gallons on me. o3o maybe they know, that i know what crap those tanks are. xD whee~ i know more than them!


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## fightergirl2710

Do people actually buy these? I mean you can see that they're too small, you don't need someone to tell you, its common sense.. In China they sell little key chains which have a tiny plastic baggie with coloured water with a baby turtle, goldfish or some other unfortunate creature inside.. 
http://www.geekologie.com/2011/04/not_april_fools_bagged_keychai.php Sick.
I would totally get the Spongebob if it was bigger though


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## fishman12

I made a thread like this a while back...
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=58067


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## BetterBetta

Petco sells these for 60$. Why am I not surprised there's a betta in it?


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## fishman12

A lot of petco stuff is photoshoped in.


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## BetterBetta

fishman12 said:


> A lot of petco stuff is photoshoped in.


Thats good, but it still urks me they chose a betta.

Oh, and


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## fightergirl2710

_OhMiGOD!_ OHMIIGOD! What the heck is that?? Betta torture device no.1??


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## CrowntailTwitchy57

Amitisti said:


> *shutter*
> hate them all
> the square Marna one is what lps to house their bettas and it is the big seller for new betta owners


me and my brother both got those when we got out first bettas... see my thread on Betta rescue and help me out here!!! :'(


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## Sivan

Sometimes, I feel like there should be an organized mass awareness campaign on behalf of betta fish. It would be wonderful if a non-profit local animal center or betta group (or something) would be able to have an Aquatic Friends Awareness Day with common myths and facts printed on sheets to be given to customers at pet store chains, such as Petco, PetSmart, and Petland.


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## BetterBetta

Sivan, that would be awesome, but in order for that think of all the pet keepers and stuff the stores would have to stop selling. I go to Petsmart all the time and see horrible "betta keepers" ):


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## Pitluvs

Venom actually was being sold with a 0.5g Marina or a 0.8g Marina (Like THIS) and I refused it. I bought him alone, his food and conditioner and put him in my 5g at home. I complained about it but some think those smaller tanks are ok for some bettas. I could never do it.


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## Sivan

BetterBetta, that would be wonderful. In order to make change, awareness and education have to come first. People will buy abusive homes for their fish as long as they are unaware that the homes are abusive. People will still view fish as only fish (lesser beings than other pets) as long as they are not aware of their intelligence, personalities, or need of respect as a living thing.

For some reason, creatures of the water are regarded as lesser and unable to feel pain or be aware of the world beyond themselves. I constantly see children at the beach smashing horseshoe crabs who have been turned over or throwing rocks at fish/jellyfish that are in sight. From a small age, people have a disregard to aquatic creatures and grow into adults who view fish as pets that are decorative and easily replaceable. Most people don't know how long a goldfish is supposed to live or that betta fish aren't meant to live in a few inches of water in a cramped place. It is sad.


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## Pitluvs

See the thing is (like MOST pets) pets stores will try to sell you ANYTHING to get those animals out, make money and send you on your way before you clue in. 

Like my pet rats. To properly have one you need a pair, a large enough cage (2 sq ft each and min base of 30" by 18"), and proper food and bedding. The rats would be $20, cage $200, food $13/m and $30 for bedding. $263 to bring home a pet rat. No one's going to pay that unless they are researching a new pet and understand proper care. Most people impulse buy at pet stores. Same with Bettas, or anything else you buy. We all know LPS (not LFS) know nothing about the animals they sell. When you get can someone to walk out paying $50 for a rat and a hamster cage, you're making money.

So with impulse buying, get the customer to buy the pet and the minimum basics and get them out the door. If you told someone it cost $20 to take home a Betta, they would. If you told someone it would cost $150, they would laugh and walk out. So they do what gets them money, not whats best for the animal. Thankfully, I researched before I impulse bought my boy haha


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## Sivan

I wish more people were aware of research for all animals before taking them home. The only way to stop these improper sales for animals is to have people not give into corporate advertising. its not like they care if the animal lives...people will just buy a new one.

What is LPS/LPF?


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## Pitluvs

Sivan said:


> I wish more people were aware of research for all animals before taking them home. The only way to stop these improper sales for animals is to have people not give into corporate advertising. its not like they care if the animal lives...people will just buy a new one.
> 
> What is LPS/LPF?


LPS Local Pet Store... LFS Local Fish Store 

With animal rescue, we say Stop the Demand, End the Supply. The less you buy, the less they will sell. 

I usually buy from feed shops, pet supply stores, wal mart or buy online. I rarely support pet stores until I got fish. But thankfully I don't have the go back unless I need something a live, sadly.


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## Kestral

It's sad that many people take advantage of Betta's ability to live in small spaces.
Why can't a Betta at least each have a half-gallon tank at the petstore? Each of my bettas have 1/2 gallon tanks, but that is because I am working on saving up enough money to buy them each 2.5 ones.
Honestly, all the other fish get larger spaces.


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## fightergirl2710

I agree, why keep the pet if you are not willing to keep it comfortably, its like having it as decor or something! Good judgement tells us nothing can be happy in something so small


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## laughing

Rarely anyone bothers to jump on Google and find reputable information on what they want to buy. I want Sugar Gliders, and unfortunately, people impulse buy on them because "they're cute". Little do they know they need at least a 2x2 base and at least 4 ft high of a cage, and need at least to be in pairs, need specific food & balanced diet or they will get CRIPPLED. If they are next to a space heater, they will die. If they do not drink enough water (and it can be hard to get them to drink) they will die. Letting them loose in the house many people have dead Gliders because they get caught in the toilet. (They have claws and can't climb out the porcelian and cannot swim.) Sadly enough, too many Glider owners do not know this and end up with dead Gliders all the time or those extremely crippled/sick. It is not from them purposely abusing, but from ignorance!

Another good example, horses. My school boards our horses at this really crappy barn. None of the horses get pasture turn-out. None. My school doesn't check the horse's regularly (I find severe cuts on my horse's hocks with dried blood and fresh blood that must've been days old that no one else even noticed!) and don't feed well. They only get fed once or twice a day, and in between never have access to any food. They do not get any supplements and are grossly over-fed on grain. To me, this is ABUSE. 

Or consider dogs... People think, "Oh this dog is cute!" and buy it without knowing anything about the breed. I love when people purchase Labrador Retrievers and are confused as to why their dog is "so hyper". Um, that's exactly what the breed is bred for? Or they buy Daschunds and are devastated when they need back surgery. Or when people get a "lazy Basset Hound" and don't get why it is depressed, destructive, and noisy because they don't think they need walks. People wonder why their American Pit Bull Terrier adores people but doesn't like other dogs. Or those that are confused as to why their Doberamn/German Shepherd/Rottweiler/etc doesn't protect their home or doesn't even demonstrate viciousness.

This happens ALL the time for all animals. Gerbils, rabbits, birds, cats, dogs, horses, sugar gliders, turtles, reptiles, aquatic animals, etc. Until people take it into THEIR hands to actually pick up a freakin' book or Google search something before impulse buying this will never stop. 

I especially feel bad for fish, like all of you. It is disgusting the things people feel are okay to do to them because they are "just fish". My mom thought I was stupid for wanting fish as a pet. Now she is madly in love with my bettas. Just recently I got a bunch of free fish who are temporarily in a 10 gallon and when she looks at them she gets excited. She gushes to me about how cute they are, how they are so fun to watch, and just cannot stop saying good things about them. Every one of my fish have their own personalities. They are SMART and know patterns and recognize me. They have feelings.

Those homes are just terrible.. Go to WalMart you can buy 1 gallons with light and filter for like $12. You can buy a 3 gallon vase/cookie jar for $14 or less... You can buy rubbermaid completely clear containers with a lid for dirt cheap. It just doesn't add up to me.


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## Pitluvs

*bows down to 'laughing'*

You are so freaking 100% right!!


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## FiShFiShFiShFiSh

*IT'S JESUS!* That is PERFECT, Laughing! it happens WAY to much and I HATE it. Yes, I have rats, but they are in a 4 square foot cage, YES i have a sugar glider, and she gets all of the necessary nutrients she needs, even though we have to mail order nutrients for her food and water, and she has a VERY large cage by herself until we get her a friend. (We wanted her to bond with humans for about a couple months instead of another sugar glider right away) I can't BELIEVE how ignorant some people are these days, they aren't just toys or pretty things to look at, They are LIVING THINGS and deserve the same respect that we give to other humans! UGH


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## Sivan

Laughing, that is the most perfect post ever. The only thing I can ad is that while most other species (except Sugar Gliders, to my knowledge) have spokespeople who raise awareness, such as pit bull groups or Animal Planet's Dogs/Cats101 that educates people on breeds and family compatibility, fish are often without a voice. Betta fish, particularly, do not have a proper representation in mass society like other creatures do. Instead, people are informed by products. Products exist to make a company money, a company that couldn't care less if the fish lives or dies. AquaBlocks are a prime example of this attitude.


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## Pitluvs

I payed $400 for my rat cage, a double Ferret Nation. The people at the store couldn't believe I would spend so much on 'food' for a cage. I was never so livid.


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## FiShFiShFiShFiSh

We payed about $300 for all of the stuff. It was the biggest cage there. but unfortunately the wires are kind of thin, but it works. We plan on possibly buying a new cage when we get some extra cash


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## laughing

@Sivan- That is exactly my point. 

There is no awareness for aquatic creatures. It is insane how people just ignore them because they are "just fish". Or other "plain" animals. People keep frogs in 4 inch long containers... They keep tarantulas in these tiny kritter keepers. People buy bearded dragons because they're small and cute and have no idea how big they'll get and need a LARGE glass enclosure. 

The reason why I brought up so many other points is because there isn't really information anywhere. Like with the horses, to the average person their conditions are wonderful. They have nice stalls, shade, coverage out of bad weather, hay daily, full tubs of water, people to care for them, etc. BUT, me being a horse-fanatic with serious knowledge I feel the fact they are never on pasture, do not get something to eat constantly (which is the proper way for them to eat for their digestive systems), never are socialized with other horses, and are allowed that much water at all times especially after working for an hour straight just appauls me! 

There are many, many, many, MANY forums, groups, clubs, tv shows, internet links, books, guides, anything you can think of for dogs. Yet I dare you to go into the dog section on Yahoo! Answers and see what people ask. They don't know why their dogs have half the characteristics they do... I have been talking to a Siberian Husky owner who doesn't understand why their dog doesn't like water and doesn't come when called. Umm... it's part of the breed? They have NO clue how to potty train their dogs, what the basic signs of a dog bloating is, feel their dog is "aggressive", aren't willing to go to the vet because they HAVE access to online sources and can "figure it out themselves", you name it. The fact they have access to such flimsy sources is actually going against us...

I feel there should be a law where you're allowed to knock someone over the head with a frying pan if they ask idiotic questions about their already obtained animals that they didn't both to research.

What's so funny is that for animals with so much information available they get the worse treatment because everything is so contradictory that people take it upon themselves to just forget about researching and do what _they want because they feel like it._ Too little information (such as bettas) means bad news for them because there is NO awareness and people go to the pet store having faith that someone _working_ at a *pet store* would know about *pets* when really they are hiring anybody that walks through the door. The average person goes in, checks their pamphlets, talks to several employees, and has faith in these people that they are giving them accurate information. This is one of the few sites that actually gives light to bettas and proper care! 

Honestly, no matter what, it wil be a lose-lose situation however you put it. It is up to the *people buying their pets* that should be doing dedicated research to find out what is factual and what is plain BS to give these living creatures the proper care and happy lives.


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## Neil D

LPS: local pet store

LFS: local fish store

LPSS: Local poop sack store


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## laughing

Another point is that for 'normal' pets like cats & dogs people trust their vets. But what is sickening is that vets are handing out incredibly wrong and harmful information to their owners. They suggest their clients terrible foods because they are sponsered to (get paid to suggest it) or they really have no idea. They push a million vaccines because they get paid to do the vaccines on these animals when extensive studies have shown over-vaccinating can lead to serious chronic health issues and even death. Heck, most vets want your dogs & cats spayed/neutered at about 6 months old. The gonads are NOT just a reproductive organ but also a gland that secretes vital hormones to promote healthy growing and to develop properly. 

It just goes to show you, you cannot trust ANYBODY but YOU need to get off your butt and diligently find information that is reliable, has been proven/had studies done, do tons of research and find out the real from the fake.


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## laughing

Neil D said:


> LPS: local pet store
> 
> LFS: local fish store
> 
> LPSS: Local poop sack store


+1 LOL, love it. I have a lot of LPSS ;-)


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## Neil D

Whoa. *awkward silence*


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## Arashi Takamine

THAT is why I don't want Yugi to go to the same vet that diagnosed Oreo with kidney failure. They told me basically: "I can't do anything but put her down. Give her IV's to keep her alive but say goodbye soon." I found out a year later that with an all wheat diet she could have lived. It was already getting too late for her but I don't want Yugi near that woman. I was relieved a different vet saw us for Yugi's first appointment. (I may just take him to Petsmart from now on. o-o; I don't want mis-information given to me just so they could hurt Yugi and get paid.)


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## Neil D

Is yugi a dog?


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## Kestral

It's annoying when you see itty-bitty Betta tanks. Most people don't care about their fish - If a fish dies, they say "Oh, I can just buy another one for cheap at a pet store!" 
That's even how my mom is. She said that "Bettas are cheap and their stuff is cheap", and she got mad when I said I needed to buy medicine for Kiwi, my female Betta.
She might be warming up to them a little, but I'm scared to tell her that when I get my two 2.5 gallons, I'm gonna need to get a thermometer...
She got really angry when I told her last time...
Really, Bettas should be in 1/2 gallon tanks with one plant at the petstore. I like Petco, because the cups are bigger than Petsmart's, the Betta's water is usually clear, and it says 'This should never be a perament home!' on the lid. But still, it's irritating when people think that since Bettas can live in itty-bitty homes, they think that they can just stick a Betta in a cup, with gravel, feed it once a day, not ever check it for illnesses, and they're good.
I want to type up a sheet of Betta facts, and hand them out to people. XD


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## vaygirl

I totally agree with Laughing. My basset is NOT lazy. They have amazing endurance and can walk very long distances. I've taken Molly for 3 mile walks in the woods. 

Also, the vet didn't tell me that fixing her so early would result in an inverted vulva. When I kept coming back for bladder infections no one mentioned her 'innie' until maybe the fifth visit. 

And don't get me started on dog food. Molly is raw fed. Most dog food is utter garbage. Dogs lived on whatever scraps people handed out until some genius somewhere made up the idea of commercial pet food. Inside, our dogs are exactly the same as a wolf. They don't need a dried pellet. They need meat, organs, and raw bones. Of course Lala won't touch an organ.  She's a diva.

I really like the idea of education. I realize that as far as stores go, it's an uphill battle but reaching the consumer is possible. Reaching the kids is also an idea. Kids love to feel like a big hero and they love to show what they've learned to their parents. If we could start educating them, we'd have responsible fish keepers early.


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## Kestral

Zactly, vagirl. It's mostly up to the children to educate themselves. They want to take care of their pets, and I have noticed that lots of parents don't really care much about the fish.

I types out this facts sheet... Is it correct? What else should I add?
*The TRUTH about Bettas*


*Follow these tips to have a healthy, happy betta!*

- Although Bettas have the ability to _survive_ in small spaces, they do not _thrive_in small spaces. To keep a healthy and happy Betta, give him a 2.5 gallon tank or larger.
- If you have a filter, make sure it is gentle. Bettas need slow-moving, gentle filters.
- It is good to have a light for your Bettas tank.
- Bettas must have a tank temperature of at least 70-80 degrees, with 80 degrees the preferred temperature. Since Bettas are tropical, freshwater fish, they need warmer temperatures. Check this daily with a thermometer.
- Feed your Betta a variety of foods. 
- Make SURE you have tap-water conditioner. Put in the correct amount every time you change your tank.
- Stock up on Betta medicine, in case one of your Bettas gets sick.
- Use Aquarium Salt.
- Do RESEARCH – It is handy to have a list of diseases, with the cure and the description listed.
- Make sure your Betta is healthy when you buy it, unless you are doing a Betta rescue. A healthy Betta should not have cuts, should be swimming and eating normally, should not have fungus, fin rot, or cotton mouth, etc.
- Check on your fish a lot, to make sure he is eating.
- If your fish is sick, follow the instructions on the medicine bottle, if there is one.
- Do not abruptly change your Bettas diet.
- Completely clean the tank every week.
- Do NOT take your Betta out of his water to examine him!
_Bringing home your Betta-_
- Make sure the temperature of his new home is the same temperature as his current home.
- Let your Betta explore his new home.
- Examine your Betta for illnesses.


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## FiShFiShFiShFiSh

That's pretty good, but I would add a thermometer, because you just said 'check the temperature'. Most people would just stick a finger in and say-that's fine! But overall, nice sheet  Would you mind if I copied and pasted, then printed it out? A while ago I said I would make a betta fish care sheet and tape to all te betta fishes cups, or onto the really small tanks....I just never made a care sheet. Thanks


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## Kestral

Changed it.


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## Kestral

Oh, and please do! Just a second, I forgot something...


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## Kestral

I also recommend joining www.Bettafish.com. This website has tons of great Betta fish facts, and the members are friendly and willing to help with any Betta fish questions or concerns. It’s a great website!

That message is at the bottom of the facts.


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## laughing

Vaygirl- I brought up Basset Hounds specifically for that purpose. They are a HOUND they are a HUNTING dog, they are not some derpy house dog that you look at... My cousin wanted one once she got married and I was like, "Umm you're lifestyle doesn't match theirs at all.." and she explained she wanted one because they remind her of her, kinda chubby, lazy, etc. and she loved their droopy ears/eyes. Errr.... I told her that they are a hunting dog and need a lot of exericse and should be allowed off leash to run and need to be walked a couple miles, and she totally dismissed the idea because they LOOK lazy. 

*headdesk* 

People think I am crazy for wanting to treat illness in my fish and I will go out of my way to set up a QT tank for them and make the home as comfortable as possible with accurate doseage of AQ salt and regularly monitoring them... They always say "it's just a fish go buy another one". I think the fact that bettas are ilke $4 in most LPS is why people think they are so replaceable...


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## fightergirl2710

laughing said:


> People think I am crazy for wanting to treat illness in my fish and I will go out of my way to set up a QT tank for them and make the home as comfortable as possible with accurate doseage of AQ salt and regularly monitoring them... They always say "it's just a fish go buy another one". I think the fact that bettas are ilke $4 in most LPS is why people think they are so replaceable...


You said it! I get that all the time.. When I buy tanks for my bettas, the people at the shop will ask me why, just buy the bowl (that fits a cup of water)... The tank will get them more money too.. I think they're just wired that way


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## betta dude

wow these people are idiots


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## Neil D

Yes I hate it. Very irksome. 

This petco lady and I were talking about the bettas,
And I say "I want them all!"
she's like "here's what I do, I take a vase and put them in there, separately, and I put females together cause they can live together..." like I'm that dumb.

Then I said" wanna here my setup? "
She says: okay
Me: I have a heated filtered divided ten gallon tank. Not to mention it's cycled. 
She looks at me like she's just been slapped. I was so close to laughing, then she says "okay then, looks like you've got all that under control. It was funny cos I'm only 13. And I look 12.


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## Franzilla 806

And here is another gem! :evil:


Product Features
Color: Black
Easy Set Up -Just add water and fish
Easy Care -Betta fish need to be fed only 2-3 times per week; Easy water changes
Space Saving -Less than 4 inches thick. Save floor or counter space
High Quality Manufacturing -High quality acrylic with advanced quartz technology
Unique Conversation Piece -The world's only clock that is a fish tank; Perfect for any room


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## Neil D

It is kinda cool, but I'd rather have a TANK that is a clock, not a clock that is a tank.


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## Tisia

bettas make great clocks. they wiggle at you and bite the glass and that means "it's food time." of course, I haven't really noticed a time that it's not food o'clock


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## Neil D

Did anyone read the petco incident I posted?


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## Arashi Takamine

I did. It's hilarious as my local lady said as long as the water is kept at 78 the betta's would be fine. She felt sorry for us as she put Kalona aside for me and I was just devastated when he died. Then of course I go to WalMart after buying Akira and I was angered seeing the awful care. My mom and I took time out of our day to educate the managers and they didn't get a thing. "But we don't see anything."

"This is STRESS for them. They will die from ammonia poisoning tomorrow I bet."

"Look this one has a little tint of blue." Bull. "It's medicine!"

I was sighing as we explained it and told them that no stress doesn't mean depression, ammonia is invisable, waterchanges in containers that tiny is 100% DAILY and they need food removed if they don't eat it.


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## FiShFiShFiShFiSh

Tisia said:


> bettas make great clocks. they wiggle at you and bite the glass and that means "it's food time." of course, I haven't really noticed a time that it's not food o'clock


 LOL so true :-D:-D


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## MikiMaki

laughing said:


> Another point is that for 'normal' pets like cats & dogs people trust their vets. But what is sickening is that vets are handing out incredibly wrong and harmful information to their owners. They suggest their clients terrible foods because they are sponsered to (get paid to suggest it) or they really have no idea. They push a million vaccines because they get paid to do the vaccines on these animals when extensive studies have shown over-vaccinating can lead to serious chronic health issues and even death. Heck, most vets want your dogs & cats spayed/neutered at about 6 months old. The gonads are NOT just a reproductive organ but also a gland that secretes vital hormones to promote healthy growing and to develop properly.
> 
> It just goes to show you, you cannot trust ANYBODY but YOU need to get off your butt and diligently find information that is reliable, has been proven/had studies done, do tons of research and find out the real from the fake.


I'm sorry but your view on vets is skewed. In cats and dogs at least, they do not need the gonads for anything other then production of reproductive hormones, which are not needed. Unlike in human hystorectomys when they leave an ovaries because they help keep people producing estrogen which helps keep them out of menopause. If your vet is telling you to only buy this specific food, then find a new vet. All good caring vets will tell you to feed the best you can afford. They will tell you Ol'Roy is crap because it is. Pruina is crap...because it is, not because they want you to buy what the reps tell them to. The better quality food, the less you feed (i.e. you actually save money) and the less poop you have to pick up (as more of it's absorbed and used by the body) Also, we want you in once a year for vaccines because you wouldn't bring your pet in just for a check up. Really that's what you're there for, so we can maintain a vet-client relationship that has to be renewed every 365 days or else we cant' claim you as a client and can't perscribe you any preventative medicine and so we can make sure your pets in good health and check for anything abnormal, just like in people. Come in and don't get the boosters every years, that's fine with us, just come in.


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## Pitluvs

Our vet doesn't try to sell us food, we feed grain free and I wouldn't buy from a vet anyways (true about them selling food because the companies pay part of their tuition). Our vet doesn't try to push us for vaccines, just once a year checkup and we don't need a visit for flea treatment. 

I am in rescue, please spay your pet before their first heat cycle or before becoming sexually mature. Neuters can lower cancers in your animals reproductive system. Also waiting until they are much older can leave you with hormone raged teenage dogs that a neuter can't fix. Also, this gives you enough time for an oops litter... which we all don't need!

And please, lets not make this a topic about dog food. Like I said, I feed grain free dry kibble and I don't appreciate someone who feeds raw saying it's not a suitable diet. Dog haven't been wolves for thousands of years, just like we haven't been monkeys in ages (haha) and they adapt. I agree with high quality meat enriched food and no wheat/by products. My own vet doesn't recommend raw because of the emergency cases he see's weekly due to raw diets. But your dog, my dog  Yours isn't right for us, ours isn't right for you but no need to claim one or the other horrible.


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## laughing

MikiMaki said:


> I'm sorry but your view on vets is skewed. In cats and dogs at least, they do not need the gonads for anything other then production of reproductive hormones, which are not needed. Unlike in human hystorectomys when they leave an ovaries because they help keep people producing estrogen which helps keep them out of menopause. If your vet is telling you to only buy this specific food, then find a new vet. All good caring vets will tell you to feed the best you can afford. They will tell you Ol'Roy is crap because it is. Pruina is crap...because it is, not because they want you to buy what the reps tell them to. The better quality food, the less you feed (i.e. you actually save money) and the less poop you have to pick up (as more of it's absorbed and used by the body) Also, we want you in once a year for vaccines because you wouldn't bring your pet in just for a check up. Really that's what you're there for, so we can maintain a vet-client relationship that has to be renewed every 365 days or else we cant' claim you as a client and can't perscribe you any preventative medicine and so we can make sure your pets in good health and check for anything abnormal, just like in people. Come in and don't get the boosters every years, that's fine with us, just come in.


First off, I didn't say every vet, this is just many vets I have encountered and experienced. I brought up the point because people put too much trust into other people who _should_ be knowledgeable but not always are.

You are incredibly inaccurate... The reason why male lions get vesectomies because "neutering" or removing the testes completely stops producing testosterone and they will lose their manes completely. 

The gonads are the only organ a part of the endocrine system that you can live without. (Or live without replacement of.) BUT, during the growth period you need to have them to develop properly. Fact. No ifs ands or butts. 

http://endo.wustl.edu/patient_care/endosystem.html

"*REPRODUCTIVE GLANDS—Ovaries and Testicles 

Location: *Ovaries (in women) are located inside the lower abdomen. Testes (in men) are located underneath the penis. 
*Hormones produced: *Ovaries produce estrogen and progesterone. Testes produce a variety of "male" hormones called androgens, including testosterone. 
*Purpose: *Reproductive hormones regulate development and reproductive functions. Estrogen controls development of female sex characteristics during puberty and also stimulates growth of the uterine lining during the menstrual cycle. Progesterone helps fertilized eggs to attach to the uterus and develop into an embryo. Testosterone is responsible for the development of male sex characteristics during puberty and for stimulating sperm maturation. Androgens enhance the growth of body tissues, especially muscle."

http://www.anti-aging.org/content/testosterone.asp

Talks about what testosterone does. It is applicable to dogs and cats, as testosterone is the same thing in all species...

http://intelegen.com/nutrients/pregnenolone_and_mental_function.htm
Pregnenelone and its benefits and necessities.

That is just for males. I didn't even go into females. That would be like saying we can cut off a male baby's gonads and expect him to mature properly. Neutering too early can cause serious side-affects. Same with spaying.

And while spaying has health benefits, neutering doesn't have anything significant. Anything thought to be true has been put to medical studies and have been proven so low it is insignificant, or irrelevant.


----------



## laughing

Pitluvs said:


> Our vet doesn't try to sell us food, we feed grain free and I wouldn't buy from a vet anyways (true about them selling food because the companies pay part of their tuition). Our vet doesn't try to push us for vaccines, just once a year checkup and we don't need a visit for flea treatment.
> 
> I am in rescue, please spay your pet before their first heat cycle or before becoming sexually mature. Neuters can lower cancers in your animals reproductive system. Also waiting until they are much older can leave you with hormone raged teenage dogs that a neuter can't fix. Also, this gives you enough time for an oops litter... which we all don't need!
> 
> And please, lets not make this a topic about dog food. Like I said, I feed grain free dry kibble and I don't appreciate someone who feeds raw saying it's not a suitable diet. Dog haven't been wolves for thousands of years, just like we haven't been monkeys in ages (haha) and they adapt. I agree with high quality meat enriched food and no wheat/by products. My own vet doesn't recommend raw because of the emergency cases he see's weekly due to raw diets. But your dog, my dog  Yours isn't right for us, ours isn't right for you but no need to claim one or the other horrible.


The funny thing is, there really are no "accident" litters... How hard is it to keep your female contained during heat? Or your male contained? It really isn't that difficult... "OMGZ IT WAZ ACCIDENTSS!>!!!!!111" Umm... Really? Is that why your unfixed dog was allowed off the leash outside, or was tied up in the backyard while you weren't home, or they 'escaped' the home because you left your door open? Or even the silliest one about they have an in-tact female AND male living together and for the life of them cannot keep them separated... But uh, breeders can do it, right? 

>.< 

Studies have been done showing that kibble doesn't allow the naturally low acidity in the stomach. While the kibble can be very high quality it still doesn't allow the digestion tract to be at its best. BUT, I do highly agree with you that too many people do it without any consideration. You really cannot just flip your dog over. Too many dogs get sick because of this. I honestly feel if you cannot read some studies, you should not jump onto this because it can be dangerous to those unexperienced... I am very happy you have decided to go grain-free and care about your dog's health! :-D


----------



## coet

Arashi Takamine said:


> I did. It's hilarious as my local lady said as long as the water is kept at 78 the betta's would be fine. She felt sorry for us as she put Kalona aside for me and I was just devastated when he died. Then of course I go to WalMart after buying Akira and I was angered seeing the awful care. My mom and I took time out of our day to educate the managers and they didn't get a thing. "But we don't see anything."
> 
> "This is STRESS for them. They will die from ammonia poisoning tomorrow I bet."
> 
> "Look this one has a little tint of blue." Bull. "It's medicine!"
> 
> I was sighing as we explained it and told them that no stress doesn't mean depression, ammonia is invisable, waterchanges in containers that tiny is 100% DAILY and they need food removed if they don't eat it.


I work at PetSmart. Sadly, we are never trained or told how to care for the Bettas. We can't change their water cups, or take the food out, for a few reasons.

One; We're never told to.
Two; The special "Betta water" that is kept in the cups is $4 a bottle, and it takes about half a bottle to do one of those small cups. We would need more water than what we have on-hand in the store.
Three; We're never told to.
Four; Most of the associates wouldn't take the time out of their shift to go pick pellets out of 50+ betta cups.
Five; Some of the associates don't even FEED the bettas.
Six; We're never told to.

It breaks my heart to see that bettas stuck in those little cups. A family owned pet store in my town is worse. Their bettas are kept in >5oz bowls. The betta barely has room to turn around. 

Also, as far as the heater incident, in training we're never told that bettas actually need a heater, so that girl could have easily seriously thought that bettas don't need a heater. I don't push a heater because if I do, the people are going to put a feeder comet fish in a one gallon aquarium (I PUSH at least ONE GALLON for each betta, even though I know they need more). For some reason customers hear the word "heater" and run. I'd rather them go home with a betta in one gallon that is basically fully grown who will be unheated than a comet goldfish in a one gallon who really needs two gallons and who is going to get a foot long. I basically have to pick the lesser of two evils. People are fickle, if you talk them up too much they'll go somewhere else that will give them what they want. 

A lot of the time when I tell people a betta needs one gallon, minimum, they go "Oh, well they're in this cup here. What's the difference?" It makes me so mad. Or that aqueon thing pictured early, I talked someone out of putting two bettas in it after I basically had to put my job on the line and say that manufacturers don't always manufacture something that's good for the fish. I could have gotten in a lot of trouble over that.

Another thing that irks me is people thing because they see 400+ comets in about 50 gallons of water, they think they can do it at home. People need to understand that a store environment is not the same as a home environment in any sense of the word. Our feeder fish are crammed in because by next tuesday, we'll have less than 50 in there. The PetSmart I work at does an excellent job of caring for their fish in these cramped conditions. 

I had a customer fight with me over how many goldfish he could put in his tank once. He came in and wanted to get 20 comets (One; because their cheap. Two; because he's a moron. Three; because he thinks he's right). I asked him what they were going in, and he told me a 20 gallon. I stopped what I was doing immediately and preceded to tell him that 20 comets are not good for a 20 gallon because goldfish need 2 gallons of water for every 1 inch of fish, and these fish are going to get a foot a piece, so that's twenty foot of fish in twenty gallons, so he would be the tank would be way over capacity. Then, his wife/mother/whatever said they already had eight comets in the tank. I told them then that the tank was already over capacity and I told them that it was very likely that all the fish would died if they added twenty. Then the guy got nasty. 

Him; I'm a paying customer, so why can't you give me what I'm asking for.
Me; I'm not telling you that you can't get what you want, but I'm telling you it's a bad idea. (continuing lecture, blah blah, fish death, blah blah, gallon to fish ratio, blah blah)
Him; I want to see your manager and I want the number to your headquarters. I want what I want and I'll get it one way or another, whether you do it or not.
Me; I'm not refusing the sale, sir, I'm just telling you it's not a good idea.
Him; Just catch me ten of those fish.

So, I gave him the ten comets, and found my manager and told her what happened before he did. He never reported me. Unfortunately, my pet care manager won't let us refuse a sale. I wanted to refuse that one. That 20 gallon is way over capacity. His wife/mother/whatever was a lot nicer than he was, and more understanding. She was telling him to forget about it. I think he's a woman beater. Very aggressive and very offensive and very threatening.

I've got story after story after story of customers being ignorant and thinking they are right, and not caring to be educated. Not all of them involve fish by any means. We do what we can, but we can't always succeed because people just don't care.

So, please, don't put all of the blame on the store associate. Sometimes they don't know, sometimes they're told to say something different, sometimes they have been so worn by customers like the ones I have encountered that they just don't want to try anymore, sometimes their job might be on the line, and sometimes it's just easier or the lesser or two evils. I do what I can, but I'm not superwoman. :-?


----------



## vaygirl

I won't say anything else about dog food but this:

I wasn't diss-ing people who feed commercial pet food when I said dogs don't need pellets. I was talking about vet recommendations. Feed your dog whatever you want. I used to feed Molly Innova. The reason she's raw fed is due to allergies and sensitivity. But my vet tried to keep her on a pellet diet and looked at me like I was a nut when I said she's raw fed. I see the difference in her and I do what I think is right for her.

My own opinion is that commercial dog food is not needed. It's over processed and it's not natural. It's only been used for the last 50 years. Dogs have been bred and thrived for about 15000 years, without dog kibble. Companies like Purina want you to think that dog food is the only way to go. There are other ways.


----------



## MaggieLynn

coet said:


> I work at PetSmart. Sadly, we are never trained or told how to care for the Bettas. We can't change their water cups, or take the food out, for a few reasons.
> 
> One; We're never told to.
> Two; The special "Betta water" that is kept in the cups is $4 a bottle, and it takes about half a bottle to do one of those small cups. We would need more water than what we have on-hand in the store.
> Three; We're never told to.
> Four; Most of the associates wouldn't take the time out of their shift to go pick pellets out of 50+ betta cups.
> Five; Some of the associates don't even FEED the bettas.
> Six; We're never told to.
> 
> It breaks my heart to see that bettas stuck in those little cups. A family owned pet store in my town is worse. Their bettas are kept in >5oz bowls. The betta barely has room to turn around.
> 
> Also, as far as the heater incident, in training we're never told that bettas actually need a heater, so that girl could have easily seriously thought that bettas don't need a heater. I don't push a heater because if I do, the people are going to put a feeder comet fish in a one gallon aquarium (I PUSH at least ONE GALLON for each betta, even though I know they need more). For some reason customers hear the word "heater" and run. I'd rather them go home with a betta in one gallon that is basically fully grown who will be unheated than a comet goldfish in a one gallon who really needs two gallons and who is going to get a foot long. I basically have to pick the lesser of two evils. People are fickle, if you talk them up too much they'll go somewhere else that will give them what they want.
> 
> A lot of the time when I tell people a betta needs one gallon, minimum, they go "Oh, well they're in this cup here. What's the difference?" It makes me so mad. Or that aqueon thing pictured early, I talked someone out of putting two bettas in it after I basically had to put my job on the line and say that manufacturers don't always manufacture something that's good for the fish. I could have gotten in a lot of trouble over that.
> 
> Another thing that irks me is people thing because they see 400+ comets in about 50 gallons of water, they think they can do it at home. People need to understand that a store environment is not the same as a home environment in any sense of the word. Our feeder fish are crammed in because by next tuesday, we'll have less than 50 in there. The PetSmart I work at does an excellent job of caring for their fish in these cramped conditions.
> 
> I had a customer fight with me over how many goldfish he could put in his tank once. He came in and wanted to get 20 comets (One; because their cheap. Two; because he's a moron. Three; because he thinks he's right). I asked him what they were going in, and he told me a 20 gallon. I stopped what I was doing immediately and preceded to tell him that 20 comets are not good for a 20 gallon because goldfish need 2 gallons of water for every 1 inch of fish, and these fish are going to get a foot a piece, so that's twenty foot of fish in twenty gallons, so he would be the tank would be way over capacity. Then, his wife/mother/whatever said they already had eight comets in the tank. I told them then that the tank was already over capacity and I told them that it was very likely that all the fish would died if they added twenty. Then the guy got nasty.
> 
> Him; I'm a paying customer, so why can't you give me what I'm asking for.
> Me; I'm not telling you that you can't get what you want, but I'm telling you it's a bad idea. (continuing lecture, blah blah, fish death, blah blah, gallon to fish ratio, blah blah)
> Him; I want to see your manager and I want the number to your headquarters. I want what I want and I'll get it one way or another, whether you do it or not.
> Me; I'm not refusing the sale, sir, I'm just telling you it's not a good idea.
> Him; Just catch me ten of those fish.
> 
> So, I gave him the ten comets, and found my manager and told her what happened before he did. He never reported me. Unfortunately, my pet care manager won't let us refuse a sale. I wanted to refuse that one. That 20 gallon is way over capacity. His wife/mother/whatever was a lot nicer than he was, and more understanding. She was telling him to forget about it. I think he's a woman beater. Very aggressive and very offensive and very threatening.
> 
> I've got story after story after story of customers being ignorant and thinking they are right, and not caring to be educated. Not all of them involve fish by any means. We do what we can, but we can't always succeed because people just don't care.
> 
> So, please, don't put all of the blame on the store associate. Sometimes they don't know, sometimes they're told to say something different, sometimes they have been so worn by customers like the ones I have encountered that they just don't want to try anymore, sometimes their job might be on the line, and sometimes it's just easier or the lesser or two evils. I do what I can, but I'm not superwoman. :-?


if i had your job i would be fired, or using my pay check to buy every betta there >.< with everything i would need for them, i would probably ask them to just pay me 25% of my paycheck in cash the rest in store products or fish lol


----------



## laughing

coet said:


> I work at PetSmart. Sadly, we are never trained or told how to care for the Bettas. We can't change their water cups, or take the food out, for a few reasons.
> 
> One; We're never told to.
> Two; The special "Betta water" that is kept in the cups is $4 a bottle, and it takes about half a bottle to do one of those small cups. We would need more water than what we have on-hand in the store.
> Three; We're never told to.
> Four; Most of the associates wouldn't take the time out of their shift to go pick pellets out of 50+ betta cups.
> Five; Some of the associates don't even FEED the bettas.
> Six; We're never told to.
> 
> It breaks my heart to see that bettas stuck in those little cups. A family owned pet store in my town is worse. Their bettas are kept in >5oz bowls. The betta barely has room to turn around.
> 
> Also, as far as the heater incident, in training we're never told that bettas actually need a heater, so that girl could have easily seriously thought that bettas don't need a heater. I don't push a heater because if I do, the people are going to put a feeder comet fish in a one gallon aquarium (I PUSH at least ONE GALLON for each betta, even though I know they need more). For some reason customers hear the word "heater" and run. I'd rather them go home with a betta in one gallon that is basically fully grown who will be unheated than a comet goldfish in a one gallon who really needs two gallons and who is going to get a foot long. I basically have to pick the lesser of two evils. People are fickle, if you talk them up too much they'll go somewhere else that will give them what they want.
> 
> A lot of the time when I tell people a betta needs one gallon, minimum, they go "Oh, well they're in this cup here. What's the difference?" It makes me so mad. Or that aqueon thing pictured early, I talked someone out of putting two bettas in it after I basically had to put my job on the line and say that manufacturers don't always manufacture something that's good for the fish. I could have gotten in a lot of trouble over that.
> 
> Another thing that irks me is people thing because they see 400+ comets in about 50 gallons of water, they think they can do it at home. People need to understand that a store environment is not the same as a home environment in any sense of the word. Our feeder fish are crammed in because by next tuesday, we'll have less than 50 in there. The PetSmart I work at does an excellent job of caring for their fish in these cramped conditions.
> 
> I had a customer fight with me over how many goldfish he could put in his tank once. He came in and wanted to get 20 comets (One; because their cheap. Two; because he's a moron. Three; because he thinks he's right). I asked him what they were going in, and he told me a 20 gallon. I stopped what I was doing immediately and preceded to tell him that 20 comets are not good for a 20 gallon because goldfish need 2 gallons of water for every 1 inch of fish, and these fish are going to get a foot a piece, so that's twenty foot of fish in twenty gallons, so he would be the tank would be way over capacity. Then, his wife/mother/whatever said they already had eight comets in the tank. I told them then that the tank was already over capacity and I told them that it was very likely that all the fish would died if they added twenty. Then the guy got nasty.
> 
> Him; I'm a paying customer, so why can't you give me what I'm asking for.
> Me; I'm not telling you that you can't get what you want, but I'm telling you it's a bad idea. (continuing lecture, blah blah, fish death, blah blah, gallon to fish ratio, blah blah)
> Him; I want to see your manager and I want the number to your headquarters. I want what I want and I'll get it one way or another, whether you do it or not.
> Me; I'm not refusing the sale, sir, I'm just telling you it's not a good idea.
> Him; Just catch me ten of those fish.
> 
> So, I gave him the ten comets, and found my manager and told her what happened before he did. He never reported me. Unfortunately, my pet care manager won't let us refuse a sale. I wanted to refuse that one. That 20 gallon is way over capacity. His wife/mother/whatever was a lot nicer than he was, and more understanding. She was telling him to forget about it. I think he's a woman beater. Very aggressive and very offensive and very threatening.
> 
> I've got story after story after story of customers being ignorant and thinking they are right, and not caring to be educated. Not all of them involve fish by any means. We do what we can, but we can't always succeed because people just don't care.
> 
> So, please, don't put all of the blame on the store associate. Sometimes they don't know, sometimes they're told to say something different, sometimes they have been so worn by customers like the ones I have encountered that they just don't want to try anymore, sometimes their job might be on the line, and sometimes it's just easier or the lesser or two evils. I do what I can, but I'm not superwoman. :-?


+1,000,000

I have gone into a PetSmart before and a woman looking at a Black Ghost Fish. I knew a lot about them (fiance's mom loves the darn things :lol and I was telling her about them. I told her how they got to be VERY long and it is recommended they are kept in at least 75 gallons but they are a very beautiful fish and will add to a large community aquarium.

Her face gets all surprised and she goes, "Really? THAT big?" because PetSmart keeps babies that are maybe 3-4 inches long.

The PetSmart employee assissting her was like no way. He even admitted (after I talked with her more about fish) that I was way more knowledgeable about fish compared to him, and if she had more questions for her to talk to me to get accurate information.

Turns out she had about a 5 gallon and wanted a fish for her little girls to care for. I recommended something like a small schooling fish, or a betta. 

*Not all pet store employees are purposely harmful, a lot of times they just don't know.* And they can get fired for speaking up. Especially with the bettas... They are basically told to leave them alone and that's that. They have more expensive fish to care for, water changes on a BUNCH of tanks, need to help customers, etc. They can't just sit there and do them.

Yes, it is totally fine to chew out that jerk of an employee who says he knows everything and you are incredibly wrong, blah blah blah. But any nice employee who is just trying to help the best they can shouldn't be blamed/yelled at, because perhaps they have no knowledge, and applied because they say knew reptiles or birds better, but their manager forced them into the fish section. It really isn't their fault. Blame the company!

Thank you Coet for that :-D


----------



## laughing

vaygirl said:


> I won't say anything else about dog food but this:
> 
> I wasn't diss-ing people who feed commercial pet food when I said dogs don't need pellets. I was talking about vet recommendations. Feed your dog whatever you want. I used to feed Molly Innova. The reason she's raw fed is due to allergies and sensitivity. But my vet tried to keep her on a pellet diet and looked at me like I was a nut when I said she's raw fed. I see the difference in her and I do what I think is right for her.
> 
> My own opinion is that commercial dog food is not needed. It's over processed and it's not natural. It's only been used for the last 50 years. Dogs have been bred and thrived for about 15000 years, without dog kibble. Companies like Purina want you to think that dog food is the only way to go. There are other ways.


I was saying this too... I know many vets who would chew you out over your decision to feed raw. And it is ridiculous... We are ALL pet owners, and we are ALL entitled to our own opinion on the proper care for our pets, period.

When related to dogs, I am getting my Rottweiler puppy soon. I do not believe in vaccines (except rabies, because required by law), and I want to feed a raw diet, and go as "naturally" as possible. Already people have yelled at me, cussed me out, said I'm a "hippie tree hugger", I am cheap & shouldn't buy a dog if I can't bother to buy him vaccines (erm, it's not the purchase, it's the side-effects?), etc. It is hurtful... Just because I think something is right for my animal does not mean anyone has to agree, but I would like some respect. When I tell people about the studies done and show studies and discuss it civily, they begin to say I'm "attacking" them and "looking down" on them and I am calling them bad owners, when in reality I am only defending MY decision because they call me "idiotic" "retarded" "stupid". :shake:

When you relate this to fish, we all have different ideas (slightly skewed) about betta care... Some forum members feel freeze-dried is the worst thing ever and will automatically cause bloat. Others say it is just not good for your fish. Some say it is perfectly alright to feed, if you have it. Then some say it is a wonderful diet addition. Some feel 1 gallon is okay, some feel the minimum is 5 gallons. 

No matter what we're all going to have different opinions... The point of these previous posts were to say we all are going to have opinions (incredibly wrong such as suggesting Purina feed, sorry Purina feeders, it is true..  or debatable ones) and it is everyone's own right... This leads back to my first post. Nearly all of our opinions have some sort of "proof" behind it. That's why _you cannot take anybody's word/opinion and expect it to be the right one._ Maybe it is right for _them_ but not for _you._ You should always be nice to opinions that are reasonable (if someone says .2 gallons is enough for a fish, bite their head off! :thumbsup and take it with a grain of salt. But at the end of the day, it is ALWAYS up to YOU to do your own research and find out what you believe and what you want to do in the best interest of your animal. You have to take responsibility and step up to the Google engine search and figure out what is factual and what is not!


----------



## newfiedragon

Pitluvs said:


> Venom actually was being sold with a 0.5g Marina or a 0.8g Marina (Like THIS) and I refused it. I bought him alone, his food and conditioner and put him in my 5g at home. I complained about it but some think those smaller tanks are ok for some bettas. I could never do it.


I had that option with Newf, too, but I told them that the $10 extra that I would spend on the Marina tank would be money I could put towards a bigger home for him.


----------



## Khalix

I work for PetSmart as well. 

I've been there for the past 4 years and it's been a struggle to not get fired. I am very outspoken about issues that are important to me.. and the longer I have worked there the higher my comfort level is for saying what's on my mind. 

I will refuse sales on a regular basis. They may run off and find someone else to give in to them, but usually the managers will back me up on it and refuse it as well. They know me well enough, I think, to know I wouldn't make a big deal out of it if it weren't an issue.

To Coet, though, that is unfortunate that they use bottles of premixed water. I'd never heard of that. We basically use those betta buddie tablets and add it to our 5 gallon fish buckets and let it sit for a while. I imagine that's a real hassle. Unfortunately the water isn't changed as frequently as I would like in my store considering the tiny cups, but they get changed at LEAST every two days. If there's a spare moment I expect someone to be doing something to take care of them. Generally it involves a lot of multitasking. Personally I change the water, line them up on the cart I use and then feed all at once. I let it sit there for a bit and then scoop off the food. Rinse and repeat. Goes to show you, though, how different every store is and every management team, too. I have been personally communicating with the suits trying to get them to implement a fish system for the bettas similar to what we keep our other fish in, but in smaller 2-3 gallon segments. Water changes would be more time efficient, feeding would be easier, and best of all the fish would be healthier and more comfortable. They are veryyyy sloooow about change, though, I have noticed. 

Petsmart definitely has its issues and we rave about them a lot, as well. We are trying to change it from the inside as much as we can, so try not to assume the worst of all of us, please. I never recommend tiny tanks for bettas, I always suggest heaters and I usually argue about the tank size.. but in the end it's up to people and unfortunately a lot of people just don't _care._


----------



## Neil D

^+1


----------



## Kestral

Let's keep the subject on Bettas, shall we?
The pet stores just don't want to give Bettas more space because of MONEY. Too much money! But what if they recieved the money for it?
That would be cool. Like, a "Help keep Betta fish happy!" donation, and every donation would be given to the pet stores...
That would be lots of money, but wouldn't it be cool? I mean, the Bettas would be so happy and healthy! Then the pet stores would realized just how many people care about Bettas!


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## Silverfang

Khalix, do what you can, it's great that you are trying. I wish more people had your ethics.


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## Littlebittyfish

laughing said:


> I feel there should be a law where you're allowed to knock someone over the head with a frying pan if they ask idiotic questions about their already obtained animals that they didn't both to research.



There would be quite a lot of knocking people over the head with pans here.:lol::shock:


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## Neil D

Haha yeah. Kestral, the problem is no one cares. It should be done with all animals.


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## Kestral

I'm exited... Going to my pet stores today! I get to get (finally!) my Bettas larger tanks! YAYA!


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## RobertTheFish

BetterBetta said:


> Petco sells these for 60$. Why am I not surprised there's a betta in it?


I dunno, I think this one is pretty cool...as a decoration inside a much larger aquarium.


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## Neil D

Ya, that would look cool, but I'm sure it's not painted for aquarium use,


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## ollief9

I am never setting foot inside an American pet store if the tales of 'Bettas in cups' are true. The worst I have seen is Bettas being kept in this 
http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Aqua-One-12-Bay-Betta-Barracks-System

And even that isn't too bad..

And check this out http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3991


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## Neil D

Yeah the bettas here in the US are in the cups, (not real cups, bigger but not as big as the ones in your first link).


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## ollief9

Neil D said:


> Yeah the bettas here in the US are in the cups, (not real cups, bigger but not as big as the ones in your first link).


 
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:


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## Littlebittyfish

Yea..It is pretty ridiculous..the size of the cups they're kept in...My local petco just recently "downsized" the cups...much smaller than they used to be...which were small anyways...It is mostly the veiltails they have downsized on...I feel sad for them..I love veiltails..


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## ollief9

Littlebittyfish said:


> Yea..It is pretty ridiculous..the size of the cups they're kept in...My local petco just recently "downsized" the cups...much smaller than they used to be...which were small anyways...It is mostly the veiltails they have downsized on...I feel sad for them..I love veiltails..


I think I might explode in a minute..


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## Yuuie

the last time i went to petsmart i notice they were putting a bunch of betta's in smaller cups that they were currently using. they were about half the size and didn't even look like the fish had anyroom to turn around in.


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## RobertTheFish

ollief9 said:


> The worst I have seen is Bettas being kept in this
> http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Aqua-One-12-Bay-Betta-Barracks-System


I'm with you, this one looks way to small. For the record, there is such a thing as a good barracks system, I think you just have to build and plumb them yourself. I would love to have about 20 or 30 cubes in a barracks with maybe 2 gallons in each. Pipe dreams...


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## ollief9

In one of my local fish stores they keep Bettas in those little Barracks. They are awful.. the flow of the filter system completely overwhelms the fish and they boxes are *tiny*...


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## fightergirl2710

I can imagine, the flow of the water must be bouncing off the walls instead of just dissipating.. Poor things


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## ollief9

Well, the flow is dropped straight down into the cubes, so it doesn't hit the walls or anything. However, it is a damn sight better than those cups...

Hey, this video shows the normal conditions the Bettas are kept in in the UK..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8mUIU1_lWU&feature=BFa&list=SP2D90D4C1338DBC9A&index=2


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## RobertTheFish

Yeah, I think it's a DIY thing only. Real betta people know how to set the filters so they don't stress the fish. 

And I would never keep a fish in anything less than a gallon.


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## ollief9

RobertTheFish said:


> Yeah, I think it's a DIY thing only. Real betta people know how to set the filters so they don't stress the fish.
> 
> And I would never keep a fish in anything less than a gallon.


This is just my opinion, I would never keep a fish in less than 3 gallons.


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## TheBlueBettaFish

iPond? Dude...what the heck! Some people are just crazy...this is an example! ^
_____________________________________________


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## TheBlueBettaFish

Oh, sorry ollief9 I didn't mean _you _I ment all the samples :X


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## Khalix

The main problem with all of it is that we simply get too many of them. If they aren't willing to spring for more of a 3-4 gallon barracks system like I would like to do in our store.. they should stop ordering so many. There are weeks we have gotten 30+ of each type.. They would be harder to come by but the buyers would hopefully be more knowledgeable in the first place. Unfortunately they have an automatic replenishment system that we have no control over, and on top of it they send extra when they know there will be a holiday weekend or a sale.

It's pretty upsetting seeing it every day.


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## Littlebittyfish

http://www.etsy.com/listing/72638866/betta-wine-glass?ref=v1_other_1
:dunno:


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## laughing

Littlebittyfish said:


> http://www.etsy.com/listing/72638866/betta-wine-glass?ref=v1_other_1
> :dunno:


A PetCo employee knows my love of bettas and suggested I get a huge tank, and fill them up with large wine glasses for each betta. She said another customer did it and it looked really cool/cute... I just said oh that's nice and smiled but in my head I was appalled! 

I'd rather pay 10$ for a 10 gallon! That poor girl has stress stripes on her for goodness sakes!


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## Neil D

Littlebittyfish said:


> http://www.etsy.com/listing/72638866/betta-wine-glass?ref=v1_other_1
> :dunno:


Horrid. And:

This lising is for one clear wine glass (it is solid glass) and rocks, shells, marbles, sea glass, gravel or polished stones of your choosing (I have limited colors, but I am more than happy to show you the colors that I have)

It is suitable for any small or medium male betta or any female. A few male guppies would look really neat in one of these as well.

Wine charms are available upon request. Limit one per person per glass please.

I can ship up to 3 in one order so please, order multiples, they make great gifts.

Guppies? Really? Not to mention it says one per order, and then it says "order multiples" who would do that?


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## Squidmagician

UGH. This is terrible. AND there is nothing "handmade" about this, so it doesn't even belong on Etsy. :evil: (Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves. I'm an Etsy seller myself, but I've kind of given up on trying to compete with all of the resellers and copycats that the admins choose to ignore)


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