# Super Red x Yellow



## Zhylis

Male: unknown
Female: spawned 16 June 14 from Atena's HM (IBC FL) x unknown yellow HMPK. 
NR1a/NR1b and BLI +/-

Goal: 
1. Super Red line carrying NR1a/NR1b and BLI
2. Reduce iridescence layer

Spawned: 23 Mar 2014









Hatched: 25 Mar 2014
Free-swimming/removed male: 28 Mar 2014 (estimated 100-200 fry)
Feeding: egg yolk, vinegar eel, microworm


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## Nimble

Gonna watch this one.


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## nakito

subbing


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## Zhylis

Ahh, been a while since I updated: we're a little past the 10 week mark, and the fry are right at 2cm in length. The PK genetics from the female are definitely showing in the spawn; I think I've pretty much wrecked the HM pheno from the male, but at least the F1 should all be carrying some flavor of NR. I just hope I can recover the yellow in later spawns. Glad to see some reduced ray counts though. And it's a pretty even mix of light and dark body with all the fry displaying some degree of BLI on a gorgeous lush red. (Side note: At ~1yr old, the non-BLI yellows have seriously faded in color while the BLI yellow maintains that thick opaque yellow. This is going to become troublesome when breeding for gold, since the black ends up muddying the brightness of the yellow iridescence. But if black is required to maintain the underlying yellow chromatophores... UGH. Still getting my genetic ducks in a row for gold.) 

They've transitioned from NLS Fry to NLS Small Fish. Also mixing it up with frozen daphnia, bloodworm, and spirulina-enriched brine shrimp. They're pretty much attacking anything that drops into the water now!

The kids:


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## Nimble

Geez, your babes are THAT BIG at 10 weeks? Mine are half that size!


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## BlueLacee

Love the pair, and gorgeous babies


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## Sadist

I'm interested in this line.


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## Zhylis

*Gold HMPK x Yellow HM*

Thanks to everyone! I've very excited about this breeding project.

Since this is all one big breeding project for a 24K gold betta, I'm just going to keep updating this thread. (Also, I just noticed I misdated the first post, pretty sure the year is actually 2015!) That said, from the red/NR1 cross above, the males are starting to display longer finnage than the females and started aggressively sparring, so they've all been jarred and adopted out. I've held back a male and a female as likely NR1 carriers for a later outcross.

Red Male (11 weeks):









Red Female (11 weeks):









*So, introducing the second cross...*
[It is ridiculously difficult to photograph a gold betta. They're so bloody reflective. The HMPK male below is actually the same color as Tamer (the gold HM in my avatar).]









Male: spawned late Jan/early Feb 2015 from Ying Her's Super Gold HMPK (Thai import) x gold pineapple (unknown US breeder)
NMS +/+ and BLI +/-

Female: spawned 16 June 2014 from Atena's HM (IBC FL) x unknown yellow HMPK. 
NR1a/NR1b and BLI +/-

Goal: 
1. heterozygous F1 carrying NMS, NR1a/NR1b, and BLI
2. determine if the male is carrying any underlying pigmentation besides opaque (I have no idea what color the F1 is going to be: red, yellow, or cellophane.) 

Spawned: 15 June 2015
This spawn was much smaller than the first, despite using the same female. The male (at ~4.5 months) didn't quite have enough bulk to wrap the female efficiently. It was painfully awkward...









Hatched: 17 June 2015
I'll see if I can get a photo once the fry are free swimming. And possibly a head count. I'm estimating about 100-150 eggs went into the nest this time, compared to the 2000 that popped out in the first spawn. The red male had a much easier time wrapping the female.


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## Sadist

Good luck!


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## Zhylis

Sadist said:


> Good luck!


Thanks! I can't wait to see how they color up 

Free-swimming/male in: 19 June 2015 (estimated 5-10 fry)
Feeding: egg yolk, infusoria, and vinegar eel


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## Sadist

You're welcome! I can't wait to see how they color up, too.


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## Mo

When are they going for sale? EDIT : Nevermind lol I'm pretty sure I saw that they were just adopted out lol


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## Zhylis

Mo said:


> When are they going for sale? EDIT : Nevermind lol I'm pretty sure I saw that they were just adopted out lol


Oops, sorry Mo. I made the mistake of bringing in photos to work and well... a lot of the lab monkeys that I work with called dibs on the babies :shock: Ever since I brought a blue female (Coomassie) in, betta fever has been brewing! I do have plans to backcross the F1 red male back to the pineapple yellow female at the end of summer/early fall though!


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## Elleth

Following!


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## Zhylis

Thanks all! Time for another update =)*

Spawn 150323 - BSE Red NR1 carriers:*
We're at ~15 weeks for the red spawn. The BSE red male is showing a nice even ray distribution in the tail; he's up to 4-rays currently and being flared daily. At full flare, he's right at or slightly short of a 180° spread on the tail. He's got a bit of iridescence but it's only noticeable under bright lights (like the LEDs in the video). Though, he has developed split ventrals. That little booger. 















The BSE female turned out to be a little shorter in the body than expected. She was deliberately chosen for her 2-ray tail (to reduce ray counts in future spawns) so she'll never hit the a full HM. She's developing a smidge more iridescence than the male, which is bothersome. Otherwise, I'm quite happy with how this spawn turned out, considering the F0.










*Spawn 150615 - BSE Gold NR1 carriers:
*These chubby little babies are coming up on 2.5 weeks. There were some... technical difficulties, namely Temujin (the male) is young, virgin, and slightly too small to wrap the female, resulting in few eggs being released and even fewer being fertilized. He ended up eating most of the dud eggs but did take excellent care of the 7 fry that did hatch. On the plus side, all 7 fry are still alive and swimming, even the little runty one. They're currently on vinegar eels, micro/Walter/banana worms, and some NLS Fry food. They're already starting to develop an iridescent shimmer over a pale white body.


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## Elleth

Cute!  I'm excited to see how the newest little ones turn out.


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## Zhylis

*Spawn 150615 - BSE Gold NR1 carriers:

*They are catapulting their way to the 1cm mark at 3 weeks. And apparently the Fry Rule applies to bettas as well, namely for every TWO fry you see, there's ONE you don't. Finally got a good tail count, and rather than the original 7, there are 12 little boogers swimming about. They're in a 2.5 gallon holding tank for now until they get a bit bigger.










Caudal, dorsal, and anal fins are all in. The iridescence is definitely starting to show; they're developing this odd purple-copper shimmer. It's very eye-catching under normal lights but somewhat tricky to photograph.


































I'm thinking the next cross in this project will be pairing the BSE Gold HMPK and this NR1b sibling of the BSE NR1b female (MissJ) above. The short term goal being to lock in and maintain the opaque, canary yellow of the females with the long term goal of reducing the amount of BSE in later spawns. They'll probably go into the breeding tank in early August.


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## Sadist

Good luck! Congratulations on 5 extra fry to choose from!


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## BettaObsessed

I'm just curious, but are your spawns smaller than usual? I've thought about breeding but having 300 fry doesn't seem manageable for me (I don't have enough space) but I could do a smaller number.


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## Zhylis

BettaObsessed said:


> I'm just curious, but are your spawns smaller than usual? I've thought about breeding but having 300 fry doesn't seem manageable for me (I don't have enough space) but I could do a smaller number.


There are multiple ways to reduce the spawn size. 

1. Remove eggs from the nest. 
For example with the red spawn, they produced a large number of eggs (~2000), which is more than I want to even think about. So after I removed the female, I also used a siphon to remove 75% of the bubble nest, leaving ~500 eggs. The eggs that I removed were fed to the fish in a community tank. Of the remaining eggs, about 200-250 fry survived until I had to make an emergency trip out of town. Due to poor tank conditions, I chose to cull all but the strongest 30 fry when i returned. (That part was not ideal.)

2. Use virgin breeders.
I went into the gold spawn expecting a smaller number of eggs (though not quite THAT small), since the male was smaller, just barely reaching maturity, and not an experienced breeder. He had problems wrapping her, meaning fewer eggs were dropped (~100 eggs) and even fewer were successfully fertilized = smaller spawn of 13 fry. (This was actually much smaller than I wanted; I usually want ~50 adults to choose from.)

3. Father-in method.
Another way to reduce spawn size is breed in a larger tank (10+ gallons) and leave the male in the tank with the fry for up to 3 weeks after fry are free-swimming. He will naturally cull the spawn for weak or deformed fry. Multiple breeders in the US and Asia report that this method results smaller spawns but the fry grow faster, are stronger and healthier, and grow up to be better breeders.

On that note, mini-red has decided he'd much rather be an 8-ray, please and thank you. He's noticeably more of a blonde red rather than the brick red of the father. Yay? I think this is a good sign in a NR1b carrier...









Not much change in the gold kids, apparently there's 13 of them now. And yes, that's my final answer! They really like pecking at the driftwood...


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## bubblesaurus

Congrats! Will be following along as they go. I won't breed but love watching your babies grow.


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## Zhylis

bubblesaurus said:


> Congrats! Will be following along as they go. I won't breed but love watching your babies grow.


Thanks bubble! For me, watching these guys develop is certainly a nice way to wind down for the night.

So, the recent uptick in pressure fronts rolling through Ohio has resulted in some frisky fish and a couple of near heart attacks for me. Yesterday, I came home to see this... The mini-reds are normally in the same tank, separated by a divider. Yesterday, they were no longer separated by a divider. Hijinks commenced. Luckily, like most virgin breeders, they completely failed at breeding. The double stun while 2 inches apart was truly spectacular. I let male finish the spawn and tend the nest, just for the experience. Today, he has a belly full of (infertile) eggs and a (premature) notch on his belt.





I put in a higher divider and figured all was safe. *snort* Today, I came home to see this... which is a very impressive "this" considering the female was in a _completely different_ (but adjacent) tank. Now I have an OOPS!spawn on my hands. I did want more fry from this pair, and hey, the male figured out the whole wrapping thing finally. But the timing isn't ideal. Decisions, decisions.


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## Sadist

Wow, I guess they had their own agendas. Are you going to try to transfer the nest?


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## nakito

why are they pecking at the drift wood?


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## Zhylis

Sadist said:


> Wow, I guess they had their own agendas. Are you going to try to transfer the nest?


>.< Ended up saran wrapping the backs of the tanks last night. Just in case. As for the OOPS!spawn, a couple of months ago I was reading about the "father-in" method of raising fry. I think I'll move the mini-reds into their own tank and leave the spawn and poppa fish in their current tank. I'm curious if this method really does affect growth and health that much. The earlier spawn from a month ago will be a great comparison, same pair and everything.



nakito said:


> why are they pecking at the drift wood?


Hi Nakito! The driftwood probably is covered in infusoria and copepods, so the fry are searching for extra snacks.


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## Sadist

Good luck with it! I've read about that method of raising fry and am very interested in how it turns out. It seems like the father culls fry before they get big enough for us to notice deformities.


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## themamaj

Zhylis said:


> Thanks bubble! For me, watching these guys develop is certainly a nice way to wind down for the night.
> 
> So, the recent uptick in pressure fronts rolling through Ohio has resulted in some frisky fish and a couple of near heart attacks for me. Yesterday, I came home to see this... The mini-reds are normally in the same tank, separated by a divider. Yesterday, they were no longer separated by a divider. Hijinks commenced. Luckily, like most virgin breeders, they completely failed at breeding. The double stun while 2 inches apart was truly spectacular. I let male finish the spawn and tend the nest, just for the experience. Today, he has a belly full of (infertile) eggs and a (premature) notch on his belt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I put in a higher divider and figured all was safe. *snort* Today, I came home to see this... which is a very impressive "this" considering the female was in a _completely different_ (but adjacent) tank. Now I have an OOPS!spawn on my hands. I did want more fry from this pair, and hey, the male figured out the whole wrapping thing finally. But the timing isn't ideal. Decisions, decisions.



Great videos. What did your previous fry turn out like from this pair?


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## Zhylis

*Spawn 150323 (F1) - BSE Red NR1 carriers:
*So the male and female that I kept from this spawn are 5 months old and sexually mature now. Mini-Ezra could put on a little more bulk, but otherwise he's ready for the spawn tank. And mini-Red is getting eggy again. Next week, I'll put them together and see if I can recover either NR1b or Super Red (Cambodian-based reds) in the F2. Both carry more iridescence than I want, so regardless of how the genetics fall out, I'll be looking to reduce the overall iridescence as I develop this line. I'm hoping Mini-Red's 2-ray tail will reduce Mini-Ezra's 8-rays. He's verging on too frilly for my tastes. (That or I need to bring in shorter, stronger rays using a HMPK. Both "issues" were brought in by MissJ in the F0.) Also, Mini-Ezra has split ventrals and his red doesn't extend to the edges of his caudal; both are traits which I'll be selecting against in the F2. If I can't pull NR1b out of these two, the plan will be to backcross Mini-Ezra to one of the non-BSE yellow girls, MissK or MissL.

*Mini-Ezra: no flash, no iridescence*








*Mini-Ezra: flash, iridescence
*








*Mini-Red: flash, iridescence
*









*Spawn 150615 (F1) - BSE Gold NR1 carriers:
*Alright, so these guys had a rough start. At 9.5 weeks, there are 9 survivors, 7 of whom are 2 cm and 2 runts at 1 cm. (And I'm down a gall bladder. Ow.) Genetically speaking, this was an interesting spawn. Going into it, I had no idea what was going to come out the other end. From the looks of it, there's a lot of stuff going on in the iridescent layer although penetrance of each gene is variable: NMS +/-, Bl +/-, Op +/-, which translates into a turquoise (royal blue + gold) iridescence on a light background (opaque). Underneath that, 1/3 are either BSE +/+ or +/- and unexpectedly, 2/3 are BSE -/-. In this (admittedly small) sample spawn, BSE seems to be preferentially segregating with red. None of the non-reds are expressing BSE like MissJ. Finally, the base coloration is pretty evenly split between red Cambodian (4) and cellophane (5); although, some of those cellophanes may actually be NR1s. The yellow pigmentation will take longer to accumulate to visible levels.


































































So this reveals some interesting things.
1. Temujin is homozygous for Cambodian (light bodied) while MissJ is heterozygous.
2. Temujin is Bl -/- (steel) while the wild-type Bl came from MissJ (Bl +/?)
3A. If yellow does develop, Temujin and MissJ carry different alleles. MissJ is NR1b; Temujin may be NR1a-based Super Gold.
3B. If yellow does NOT develop, then Temujin is probably a cellophane-based Super Gold.

Going forward, the ultimate goal is to create a stable line of 24K Gold HMPK. The first step will be to get NMS +/+ on a NR1b fish. Luckily Cambodian-based cellophane is easy to break; the trick will be to get two of the same alleles of NR1 in one fish. There are 3 potential NR1s in the current spawn, and they're all carriers via MissJ. But the major problem right now is that Temujin x MissJ results in very small or non-viable spawns. And so far, there's been little action in the Temujin x MissK spawn. I'm going to separate these two for a few days and try again. Unfortunately, there aren't any storm fronts on the weather forecast...

*Shhhh, be vewwy quiet...
*


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## HTageant

Your fish are absolutely beautiful! subbing


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## Isabella15

Subbing.


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## Nimble

Very nice research, although I could have told you that a fish expressing a Cambodian base is homozygous, since it is a recessive trait. But, very good for you for confirming through your own research.


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## Zhylis

Nimble said:


> Very nice research, although I could have told you that a fish expressing a Cambodian base is homozygous, since it is a recessive trait. But, very good for you for confirming through your own research.


Thanks Nimble! =P But based on appearances alone, could anyone really identify this fish as Cambo-based? (I couldn't, not without X-ray googles! There's a heck of a lotta stuff occurring in the iridescence layer to obscure the base color.) Originally, based on his eye color, whether the anal fin joins the body, and the emerging red flecks, I was guessing he was an NR1A. I wish he was a non-red... Would have saved me a couple steps!


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## Zhylis

So, it seems the yellows are much more prone to velvet compared to the reds and cambos, even though they're all in the same tank. Nonetheless, I've managed to drag the survivors kicking and screaming into adulthood. (At this point, if the yellows stop eating, it's spinal reflex to dose the tank with acriflavine.) I have three fish that express both NR1 and NMS +/-, while the other five potentially carry NR1 and definitely express NMS +/-. Not the greatest finnage, but that's something that can be worked on while cleaning the blue and opaque out of the iridescent layer. (*Nimble, if you're reading this and Limon happens to disappear one night, I was at the bar with friends. All night long. Really.)

*...Poor fairy cory just wants his shrimp pellet.
*




*BSE NR1B female
*(Sexing is tentative.)









*Cambo-based NR1 male
*









*Platinum-based NR1 female
*









*BSE red male (and the BSE NR1B female again; I love this shot.)
*









*Red Cambo male and BSE metallic blue male (runt)*









*And a BSE red female (runt)
*









*And finally Chubs, a red Cambo male who is currently banished to Stumpy's tank for excessive aggression and food hogging
*









So the plan is to grow out the first three fish and then, depending on gender, to either cross to a low iridescence NR1 HMPK in order to further reduce the blue and opaque in the iridescence layer or to do an F1 cross to generate homozygous NMS and NR1B fish. Worse case scenario, if the yellow crosses continue to die off, I'll bring in Mini-Red as an NR1 carrier, although she has more blue iridescence than I'd like. (But no opaque!) Like this spawn, half of Mini-Red's genetics come directly from MissJ, my BSE NR1B female, so I'm likely to regain the yellow.

Grow, babies, grow!


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## Zhylis

After further thought, my BSE gold male must be carrying at least one copy of NR1B. That's the only way to account for the yellow fry in the F1. To enrich the yellow, I'd prefer to do a red x yellow F1 sibling cross, but the reds are all expressing too much opaque. Instead, I'm stuck trying an F1 yellow x yellow, and considering the F0 was also a yellow x yellow, this could get ugly. 

On the plus side, No.6 and No.7 both look to be expressing very little opaque, so that's one thing off the to-do list. The remaining opaque will be diluted out in later generations. So. The next step is to do an F1 sibling cross to regain gold (NMS/NMS) and pair it up with steel (bl/bl) without enhancing the opaque (I'll be happy with either +/- or -/-). At least by using No.6 and No.7, I'll be certain every fry will carry yellow (NR1). In any case, these two are growing well, and I should be looking at a Christmas spawn. 

*No.7*









*No.6*









Meanwhile, since I'm switching to plakats, I won't continue working the 150323 spawn. Instead, I'm planning to build a R/O/Y HMPK line. No need to make my life harder with culling longfin fry when I start crossing R/O/Y and gold.

*Male:* light-bodied red HMPK (4-ray) through MN Betta Shop
*Female:* light-bodied NR2 HMPK (2-ray) through MN Betta Shop









Goal:
1. start a red/orange HMPK (4-6 ray) line, then cross F1 to yellow.
2. Use the R/O/Y line to maintain orange/yellow while crossing with gold for a 24K gold betta

Spawned: 4 Nov 2015
est. 250 eggs









Hatched: 6 Nov 2015


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## Sadist

Aww, look at the daddy protecting his little eyeballs.


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## pinkcupid765

subbing


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## Sadist

Oh wow, look how much time has passed! How did the spawn go? Did you make a new log for it?


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## Zhylis

Sadist said:


> Oh wow, look how much time has passed! How did the spawn go? Did you make a new log for it?


Oops, forgot to update this thread! Red turned out to be poor father material and managed to snack on some fry before I caught him in the act. He got pulled out ASAP, and the copper salamander HMPK from the other breeding thread was put in as a surrogate father-in. (I've switched to father-in as my main method of breeding. I think it'll help foster good breeding behavior in later generations, and it naturally culls and selects for the stronger fry.)

Here's step-dad with the ~20 survivors at Week 7. The fry are about 3/4 of an inch and just starting to color up.









At Week 8, the fry are ~0.8-0.9 inches and starting to color up. They're very uniform: white bodies with red caudal, anal, and ventral fins. Not too surprising, I'm expecting near 100% red with a mix of solid and Cambo in this spawn. Most (if not all) of them carry NR2 (orange) as well.

















Everyone from the gold x yellow spawn has matured at this point. No. 7 is currently in the spawn tank with a female red HMPK, but out of the three "F"'s, he seems to prefer fighting with the female. (Which is technically better than fleeing from her. But I'd rather they be...*cough*)

*Well, it started off looking promising...
*


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## gentaro

Hi Zhylis, Happy New Year to you first of all.
I am new to Bettas, only started building my "portfolio" over last 2 weeks. Bought my first VTs from a petshop (including 2 males for my kids) but then I noticed Facebook auction groups in my country of residence ... Thailand. By now I auctioned 5 males and 11 females. I keep females in a 40 gallon community tank with no issues.
My next plan is to try breeding 1 pair and here the problem starts. I have very little knowledge of genetics, understand the layers but that is it... you on the other hand seem to be experienced, know abbreviations of things I do not understand but would like to.
It seems that breeding a PK with HM or OHM results in loss of the moon, does this mean I better stick to the species like PK x PK or HM x HM?

I actually planned to cross a super red HM with a platinum white HM and I wish to achieve a color mix of red and white, is this possible?
Last question...where can I find the definition of those abbreviations you use?
Thanks a lot for answering in case you read this.


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## Zhylis

Hello and happy New Year to you and your family, gentaro! I've only recently started breeding betta, although I have bred goldfish and cichlids for decades. Betta genetics are very interesting and despite their short history here in the USA, the genetics are very well described by the early breeders. I'll try to answer your questions as well as I can.



gentaro said:


> It seems that breeding a PK with HM or OHM results in loss of the moon, does this mean I better stick to the species like PK x PK or HM x HM?


The short answer is: you can cross PK with HM/OHM without losing the moon. But you need to use bettas with a perfect moon. You will lose the moon if you use a traditional/fighter plakat.)

The long answer: Crossing tail types can work with little loss of the moon. There will be more lower quality fish, but the tail can be fixed with more breeding. However, this only works when crossing high quality HMPK to HM/OHM. Both fish are the same species with the same genes for halfmoon. The difference is the HM/OHM also has two copies of the genes for "long fin". 

Let's say we cross HM to HMPK. First, how to get a good moon? Both fish have the genes for halfmoon, but because the HMPK has a shorter tail, the flaws in the moon are harder to see. To get a good moon, the HMPK must be very high quality, even show quality if possible. The HM should be of at least good quality. 

Second, length of tail. To keep things simple, each parent fish has two copies of a gene. The fry get one copy from each parent. (Since both parents are halfmoon, fry get two copies of halfmoon.) The HM has two copies of long fin (LF/LF). The HMPK has two copies of short fin (sf/sf). All the fry get one copy of LF from the HM, and one copy of sf from the HMPK; therefore, their genotype is LF/sf. Since LF is dominant to sf, all the fry have longer tails. (Other things will control *how* long, but none of the fry will be plakat.)

To get back to short fins, either breed two siblings or breed to a HMPK. Sibling cross will give LF/LF (25%), LF/sf (50%), and sf/sf (25%) in other words 75% of the fry will be long fin HM and 25% will be HMPK. If you breed to a HMPK (sf/sf), then you will get LF/sf (50%) and sf/sf (50%), meaning half will be HM and half will be HMPK. If all the breeders are very high quality, then most of the fry will be halfmoon. Having done this type of cross, my biggest problem was rounded corners on the tail. Most fry were HM/OHM, but many did not have a perfect "D".



gentaro said:


> ...cross a super red HM with a platinum white HM and I wish to achieve a color mix of red and white, is this possible?


This is possible but not by crossing super red x platinum. This cross will make red fish with a full body white/blue wash. You need the marbling gene with the opaque gene in the iridescence layer. They're usually sold on Aquabid as "samurai" or "galaxy koi". Like this fish: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1451745014

Breed that fish to a super red or a red dragon. That would be my best guess.




gentaro said:


> ...where can I find the definition of those abbreviations you use?


Those are the names that the USA and EU breeders use for breeding. I'm not sure if they're fully listed anywhere. Here are some good places to start:

http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AAB.htm
http://www.bettysplendens.com/
http://www.ingloriousbettas.com/betta-genetics-color-and-form.html


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## Zhylis

So, the father-in method seems to reduce aggression between the fry. The original father, Red, was eating his fry when they became free-swimming, so he was removed and replaced with the copper salamander. I made the mistake of removing the copper salamander from the Red x Orange spawn because I wanted to breed him. (He's now babysitting his own spawn.) Unfortunately, in the absence of a mature male, the Red x Orange fry started fighting for dominance. The result? I had to cull 5 fry that were mutilated (missing fins, eyeballs, etc.) Note to self: DO NOT REMOVE FATHER. 

That said, I split the Red x Orange spawn. The 9 largest fry went into the same tank as my Super Gold HMPK; the rest remain in the planted grow-out tank. The aggression has completely stopped. (Deep sigh of relief.) Interestingly, I'm starting to notice a difference in the red color of the fry. Some look like a dark red, some are cherry red, and some... some appear orange. Very unexpected. This suggests either the red male carries NR2 (orange genes), which I was not expecting; the color orange is a partially dominant trait (very unlikely, I think?); or the color orange is somehow a mixture of red and yellow mutations. I'm not sure how likely this last scenario is; however, red and yellow coloration in betta is associated with pterin-based pigments. And I don't know of any "orange" pterin. But if you mix red and yellow...

*SuperGold in the back; red fry on the left; orange-ish fry on the right.
*









*More Red x Orange fry
*

















*Close up on orange-ish fry
*


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## Nimble

I'll be keeping an eye on your Red x Orange fry. With the amazing dorsal fins that both parents seemed to have, I think they'd be good material to cross into my future Chocolate line.


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## Zhylis

Nimble said:


> I'll be keeping an eye on your Red x Orange fry. With the amazing dorsal fins that both parents seemed to have, I think they'd be good material to cross into my future Chocolate line.


Let's see how they grow out, Nimble! I really hope some of them are male; some of the dorsals already look very impressive, heavy DT influence there.

The Red x Orange spawn continues to grow well. There's something like 4-6 NR2 mixed in with the reds. Pattern-wise, so far the reds are all look like cambo although I expect most of them to turn solid as they grow. There's at least two solid oranges; others are smaller and still appear cambo-like. Dorsals are clearly split into narrow- and broad-base. But oh man, the broad-based ones are looking mighty fine!

Meanwhile, on the ugly side of the fence, I ended up doing a F1 sibling cross from the SuperGold x BSE yellow spawn. In this line, I'm still focusing on color genetics before I even think about form. That's where the R/O/Y line will come in.

*F1 sibling cross*









OK, so what's going into this genetic mixer? The F0 are a SuperGold HMPK and a BSE thick yellow HM/HMPK hybrid. 

The F1 male is a weak yellow (NR1/NR1), he's lost some of the NR1B genes but has enough to make a translucent yellow pigment. He's also got steel blue (bl/bl) but the iridescence is limited to the fins. He should have some opaque, like the female, but that mutation seems to be reverted or suppressed (unexpected but handy). He only has one copy of NMS, enough to give a faint metallic shimmer, and interestingly, it's localization is independent of the blue, meaning NMS is full body rather than restricted to the fins. He also has a patchy BSE, just a few speckles like the F0 SuperGold. He may be expressing variegated fins (Vf/+).

The F1 female is a... dilute red? Incomplete red? I'm not quite sure what to call her coloration; it's definitely affected by the NR1B genes and not like extended red, blonde red, or SuperRed. She's almost a full-body steel blue with a pastel wash (bl/bl and Op/+) and should be NMS/+ (but I can't tell for sure). She's also sporting a full-body BSE like the F0 NR1B female and possible variegated fins (Vf/+).

*Her red looks nothing like my 3 other red lines. How strange.*









This... this is going to be messy. I was going to outcross the F1 male to a clean red HMPK. She was a bit too big for him. Instead, I had to fall back on Plan B: the F1 sib cross. Ideally, I want get an F2 red (yellow geno) male with either copper or gold in the iridescence layer and little/no BSE and opaque. That's not going to happen; I have a better chance of winning the Powerball lotto. So, to be realistic, my main goal for this cross is to regain homozygosity at the NMS locus (i.e. copper or gold in the iridescence layer) while maintaining the yellow geno. I have a 25% chance of achieving that goal. I'm good with baby steps!

*Spawned: 17 Jan 2016
*There were some technical difficulties. He's a virgin; there were some fumbles. She was previously spawned to my copper salamander HMPK on 04 Jan 2016. It ended up being a very small spawn. 

*I don't think it works that way...
*









*...close enough...
*









*Hatched: 19 Jan 2016
*









Well, there's maybe ~15 fry. Let's see how many survive the first week... I may still try to spawn the F1 male with a clean red HMPK.


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## Sadist

> I don't think it works that way...


Hahahahaa! Too funny. I almost sprayed coffee everywhere.


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## kitkat67

Ditto^


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## liamthen

that f1 male dorsal is impressive,good luck with the frys


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## Nimble

How are the Red x Orange fry doing? The ones that were spawned in November?


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## Zhylis

Nimble said:


> How are the Red x Orange fry doing? The ones that were spawned in November?


*Bloody. Gorgeous. *(And bloody difficult to photo.)
I think I should be able to sex them in 2-4 weeks (3.5-4 months).

*Last week*



























*This week
*


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## liamthen

they are really gorgeous!! form is so balanced, let me guess the sex

top pic left side is male, right side is female
2nd pic can't really sure ,put my bet on male on the most clearer one at right corner, can't see clearly on the two at background
3rd pics is definately male
4th is male
5th is male 
6th male ( curious if 4,5,6th is same fish )
7th is male too ( can't guess the one that have head taken only at 7th )

tat dorsals..they are so promising do them have DT gen?


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## dcg

Last pic, a scary head on the right bombing the photo.


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## Zhylis

liamthen said:


> top pic left side is male, right side is female
> 2nd pic can't really sure ,put my bet on male on the most clearer one at right corner, can't see clearly on the two at background
> 3rd pics is definately male
> 4th is male
> 5th is male
> 6th male ( curious if 4,5,6th is same fish )
> 7th is male too ( can't guess the one that have head taken only at 7th )
> 
> tat dorsals..they are so promising do them have DT gen?


Great guesses! You match my guesses 100% but time will tell for sure. Photo 4-6 is the same male, trying different light for the photo. Top light was too bright and washed out the orange, with flash gives a better idea of the color (and no iridescence!).

The female has heavy DT influence; her brother does not show any DT but good ray length. Cross together... <3









Hahahaha, the big, fat head is Temujin, my gold father for the other half of this project. He's babysitting. (I need to get a new, flare photo for him. Here is his color.)


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## liamthen

i am know nothing for gold and yellow, i'll nag you later about it hahaha, for now i can't be greedy enough to go another goal lol, focus,focus,focus, that's all i keep saying to my self, it's feel guilty reading my signature lmao, btw that red male is very clean and dense red


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## Nimble

Zhylis said:


> *Bloody. Gorgeous. *(And bloody difficult to photo.)
> I think I should be able to sex them in 2-4 weeks (3.5-4 months).



When you're interested in selling, get in touch with me. I'd love to get one with a nice, broad dorsal fin. Especially one that has the same bright yellow-orange that the mother showed.


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## Zhylis

Nimble said:


> When you're interested in selling, get in touch with me. I'd love to get one with a nice, broad dorsal fin. Especially one that has the same bright yellow-orange that the mother showed.


Can do. I'll be evaluating their growth in ~1 month, snap some photos, and then contact folks as listed.


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## liamthen

bit off topic, how you put explanation text on top of each picture?


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## dcg

text text text









text text text









Or use the second icon from right to the left named "insert image" and put the picture's link in the window that opens.

PS: you need a site to host images to do that. If not, just continue to use "Attach Files" feature.


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## kitkat67

dcg said:


> text text text
> 
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> text text text


*forehead smack*


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## dcg

I gave it a quick test and is working.


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## liamthen

uhm i don't have a site to host any image, perhaps i'll try google drive later,will learn how to set up,thanks alot man =)




dcg said:


> text text text
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> text text text
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Or use the second icon from right to the left named "insert image" and put the picture's link in the window that opens.
> 
> PS: you need a site to host images to do that. If not, just continue to use "Attach Files" feature.


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## dcg

The thread starter uses photobucket.com
http://postimage.org/ works also.

They are free and easy to use.


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## Zhylis

*Orange male #1*


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## Zhylis

*Orange male #2 (Wiggly little bastard)

*


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## liamthen

can't wait to see when they fully develop their fins, that #2, has very nice webbing on dorsal


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## Zhylis

liamthen said:


> can't wait to see when they fully develop their fins, that #2, has very nice webbing on dorsal


Same here  I'm pretty happy with him. Planning to back cross him to the F0 female and then start working on fixing the tail. Increase ray counts to 6-8 and fix the corners. Later, work on getting longer rays in the dorsal while keeping the broad base.


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## Zhylis

Well, the first batch from the Red x Orange spawn have all been shipped out and have made it safely to their new homes. The second batch should be hitting their final growth spurt in the next two weeks (@ 4.5 months). For males, there are 2 oranges and 3 cambo-based reds remaining in addition to 1 orange female and a handful of red cambo girls. All the red cambos are carrying NR2 and should produce some percentage of orange fry.

*M2 (from the first group) all grown up 
*









*One of the cambo-based reds (from the second group) growing out
*


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## Nimble

Your boy M1 is doing well here at his new home, Zhylis. He's a very lovely shade of blood-orange, and he's a respectable size as well. Hopefully he'll be able to wrap my two fat females that I have planned for him.


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## liamthen

that vents is awesome, love them, especially the M2, i need to really selective on my future breeds lol, i want vents like that!!


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