# Wierd Facts In Test Kit?



## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

I know that when you're cycling a tank *ANY* level of ammonia or nitrite is harmful......But on my test kit it says that:

-Ammonia Safe Until 1.2 ppm
-Nitrite safe until 0.3 ppm

And after cycle is complete I know that nitrate levels are safe until 20 ppm....But it say:
- Nitrate safe until 50 ppm

So are those levels safe then?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Safe....for some species of fish.....not sure which one......

Test kits only test at part per million (ppm)...so you will have trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite until the biological filtration takes hold.....its best to keep both ammonia and nitrite 0.25ppm or less and nitrate under 20ppm.....

What kind of test product is this...brand and liquid reagent or strips.....

I know the strips have a safe, stress, unsafe type reading and I don't personally like that since it can give a new hobbyist a false sense of security......I will have to look at my API and see what it says......

I know on my python siphon-its directions say to make 10% water changes every 2 months.......that disturbing......lol.......


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## cgchad (Aug 4, 2011)

During cycling, there is no way to really avoid ammonia. You have to have it to feed the bacteria that will eventually benefit your tank.
During a fishless cycle, one of the methods is to actually add ammonia.

So to a certain extent they are correct. You just have to do a lot of work during a fish-in cycle to keep it as low as possible, so you don't kill your fish, or cause long term damage to gill functions and internal organs.

Edit; Looks like OFL and I were typing at the same time, with basically the same thought..LOL


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Oldfishlady said:


> Safe....for some species of fish.....not sure which one......
> 
> Test kits only test at part per million (ppm)...so you will have trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite until the biological filtration takes hold.....its best to keep both ammonia and nitrite 0.25ppm or less and nitrate under 20ppm.....
> 
> ...


It's a Nutrafin (By Hagen) Master Test Kit With Liquid Reagent....
Edit: Oh wow, my tank was at 0.6 ppm ammonia in 1 day! But don't worry I allready did a water change because of it


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

What kind of dechlorinator are you using...you have to remember that some dechlorinator will change ammonia to ammonium the less harmful form and the test kit can't tell the difference...... until the biological filter kicks in and removes it......


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Oldfishlady said:


> What kind of dechlorinator are you using...you have to remember that some dechlorinator will change ammonia to ammonium the less harmful form and the test kit can't tell the difference...... until the biological filter kicks in and removes it......


Prime by Seachem.....And all I have in my filter is activated carbon...


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Also I know allready that ammonia and nitrite should be kept at 0ppm and at most .5ppm......but what about after the tank is cycled, what is the safe level of nitrates? And also if the test showed no nitrates after a tank is cycled does that mean you would have to re-cycle it?


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

jman828 said:


> I know that when you're cycling a tank *ANY* level of ammonia or nitrite is harmful......But on my test kit it says that:
> 
> -Ammonia Safe Until 1.2 ppm
> -Nitrite safe until 0.3 ppm
> ...


Those levels are safe for when you're cycling. If you keep doing water changes to zero the ammonia you'll never cycle! Betta are fine to about 1.6ammonia and 1.2nitrite for short periods of time, but if you stay at that level the bacteria will stop eating.

50ppm nitrate is more of a joke than a safe mark. It DOES depend on pH and gH/kH. Your little ones could probably survive 150ppm nitrate indefinitely if you're at 35ppm hardness (2° hardness on test kit)

The dangerous stuff starts happening when you're fish-in cycling and only watching your ammonia and/or nitrite and the nitrate begins building rapidly. 1ppm nitrite will make 70ppm nitrate nearly instantly toxic to most fish, its a question of kidney function. So if you consider 1ppm ammonia, 1ppm nitrite and 90ppm nitrate in one tank, there's only one fish that can survive: Betta.

This gets us into the modern water treatments for chlorine and chloramine like Prime or Neutral Regulator. These two contain chemicals to buffer-to-safe all three nitrogen compounds. The chemicals usually last about five days depending on cycle load and water conditions. If you add too much of these when you're putting water into a tank that is cycling you're reducing the efficiency of the cycling! 

Generally from my experience I say about 0.8ppm ammonia 0.3ppm nitrite and 30ppm nitrate. If the first two are lower the last can be higher. 

Most common mistake when cycling a tank isn't actually having the cycle stall from ammonia or nitrite getting too high... its having rocks and ornaments IN the tank while cycling. A bottom full of rocks will trap these heavier chemicals and the bio-processing will occur down there in a much denser manner than the rest of the tank. - I started using my eclipse-3g tank recently for "Glee" a blue pom-pom of a half moon and I put rock in the bottom because I thought the bio-wheel would wake up. Turns out the wheel was sterile and it took me six water changes a day for three days to keep down the ammonia and nitrite down in the rocks when the tank finally cycled. This only a week after putting Glee in the tank and feeding him only three mini-pellets a day. The chemicals had actually penetrated the rocks and were seeping back out over time.

I've got a couple other posts I've made about freshwater test kits on this forum, some day I may write a selfblog but lately the problems I've had are a little terrifying.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

But what about after the tank is cycled, if the test showed no nitrates after a tank is cycled does that mean you would have to re-cycle it?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi jman - After the tank is cycled, you should show 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and some form of nitrAtate under 40ppm. This means your tank is cycled. @Thunderloon - great info on the nitrAte and nitrIte readings during the cycle process. I never put those two together. Thank you! FYI: Prime only detoxifies for a maximum of 48 hrs, even with a low bioload. Standard timeframe is 24-36hr. After 48 it releases the ammonia and nitrites back to their original form. Also, any ammonia over .50ppm can cause permenant gill damage and any nitrite over 0 begins to break down internal organs through lack of oxygen in the blood. Although you're right, our little bettas are hardy little guys. However, 50% water change is recommended for anything over .25ppm. I've never heard of rocks being detrimental to a cycle, as rocks and decorations are housing areas for beneficial bacteria. Interesting seeping you experienced from your rocks! I'm totally curious now and will be researching what you experienced. I've never heard of that, however all of my tanks are over 10gal. I don't know much about smaller tanks, however OFL and other Mod's don't reccomend cycling anything under 5 gal due to their unstability with holding the cycle. I'm off to research!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I did it to you again, didn't I? I didn't answer your question but misunderstood what I was reading. . . I swear, I'm getting old. Ammonia releases Nitrites, Nitrites relase NitrAtes. I've never had a 0 reading across the board, except when I first start a cycle. That's a new one for me. My nitrates are *really* low, but I have live plants, some algea and other factors with my tanks. Not sure of the answer for this one with your tank parameters. Thunderloon will probably know!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

flowerslegacy said:


> I did it to you again, didn't I? I didn't answer your question but misunderstood what I was reading. . . I swear, I'm getting old. Ammonia releases Nitrites, Nitrites relase NitrAtes. I've never had a 0 reading across the board, except when I first start a cycle. That's a new one for me. My nitrates are *really* low, but I have live plants, some algea and other factors with my tanks. Not sure of the answer for this one with your tank parameters. Thunderloon will probably know!


Ammonia doesn't release nitrites, it's produced by the process of beneficial bacteria 'consuming' ammonia. 

When you say you never have zero readings across the board, does that mean you have ammonia and nitrite readings in supposedly established tanks, or that you are just getting low readings of nitrate?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Lots of opinions on how the nitrogen cycle works.......

You will not be re-cycling when you don't show nitrate.....you will continue cycling until you see nitrate....remember the test product only test at ppm level....trace amounts may be in the tank.....look for other signs-like algae growth.....
Several factor can change nitrate level, like low bioload, live plants, pH to name a few......

High nitrate usually is a sign of poor care/neglected tank, dirty filter media, poor water flow, poor vacuuming....you want to keep the nitrate 5-10ppm...at least under 20ppm....over 40ppm and it start to effect immune response and can stunt growth of young fish.....really high nitrate due to neglected tanks usually will be coupled with crashed pH and that large volume water change can shock the fish often killing them and where the myth "water change killed my fish" came from......

Same with ammonia and nitrite-at ppm level you will have trace amount for the fish-in cycling process until the biological filter kicks in and uses it/converts.....

Prime-binds with ammonia and makes it ammonium a less harmful form-the nitrifying bacteria can still use it for the nitrogen cycle....once the biological filtration kicks in it will remove it instantly too....

The nitrogen cycle can take up to 8 weeks in some case......bioload, plants, pH, KH/GH, cleaning methods, oxygenation, filtration are several factor that can either make it longer or shorter process....


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi LittleBettaFish, I've actually been talking to @jman in another thread for quite awhile regarding cycling. Sorry my response was vague, as after re-reading it I could understand why my response didn't make sense in this thread. I was cutting-to-the-chase, so to speak, per discussions on the other thread. Correct, nitrites are 'produced' from the ammonia being consumed by the beneficial bacteria. Hence nitrates are 'produced' by nitrites being consumed by beneficial bacteria as well. Perhaps "released" was the wrong verbiage - thank you for clarifying for @jman! In regards to my comment, stating that I only receive 0 numbers across the board . . . I was only referring to when I first set up a tank and first add the water. Initial testing produces 0 numbers. However, once I add the ammonia source, the cycling begins. At the end of the cycle I have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrItes and 10ppm nitrAtes.
@OFL - thank you for the comment re: Prime. I get so wrapped up in the steps, that I often forget to mention that those detoxified compounds still allow the cycle to continue ie. once ammonia and nitrites are converted to a non-toxic form, the nitrifying bacteria can still use it to continue the cycle.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you Thunderloon,LittleBettaFish, And flowerslegacy


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

flowerslegacy said:


> Hi LittleBettaFish, I've actually been talking to @jman in another thread for quite awhile regarding cycling. Sorry my response was vague, as after re-reading it I could understand why my response didn't make sense in this thread. I was cutting-to-the-chase, so to speak, per discussions on the other thread. Correct, nitrites are 'produced' from the ammonia being consumed by the beneficial bacteria. Hence nitrates are 'produced' by nitrites being consumed by beneficial bacteria as well. Perhaps "released" was the wrong verbiage - thank you for clarifying for @jman! In regards to my comment, stating that I only receive 0 numbers across the board . . . I was only referring to when I first set up a tank and first add the water. Initial testing produces 0 numbers. However, once I add the ammonia source, the cycling begins. At the end of the cycle I have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrItes and 10ppm nitrAtes.
> @OFL - thank you for the comment re: Prime. I get so wrapped up in the steps, that I often forget to mention that those detoxified compounds still allow the cycle to continue ie. once ammonia and nitrites are converted to a non-toxic form, the nitrifying bacteria can still use it to continue the cycle.


Ah, no worries. Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure if you meant you were having difficulties with cycling your tank or not.


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

lol, we all forgot some important bits

1ppm ammonia is about 3ppm nitrite is about 7ppm nitrate, sometimes the conversion produces N2O and other various gases. This means a successful mini cycle that doesn't show up on the ammonia and nitrite kits can still make 10ppm nitrate, thus why we watch all three when cycling. If the nitrite test doesn't look like the default cobalt blue of this forum's background... you have nitrite. Under some conditions the nitrite test will give false negatives and barely change color.

Walstad cycling is different and we can never advise doing it fish-in if you've never cycled a walstad before. (walstad = full natural bio support with dirt, plants etc) Walstads often need to be burped as the non-dirt breaks down and produces gasses and walstads should always be planted with STEM plants, stuff like crypt and wendti are stem plants. These are both also great plants for betta, they tolerate rustling and produce a nice clump for him/her to sit on.

Small tanks, ie Eclipse series or specialist tanks which include bio-media filtration are designed for cycling and often come with specific instructions. In the case of such tanks its usually best to cycle with nothing but the bio-media in place and no life or ornaments in the tank.

Cycling without fish can often be accelerated by raising the temperature to 83°F and increasing aeration. A little touch of epsom salts will help too.


_______________________________________________________
And some of my tidbits that others may not to wish to lay claim to:
You can use existing live bio-media in newly set up tanks to colonize the filtration faster but whenever possible when using bio-media from existing filters, use it AFTER the new bio-media in a filter of a tank you are cycling. If you place it before, you run the risk of only growing nitrite eating bacteria on the second media. Odd but true.

If your filter does not have a bio-filtration media but is large enough and/or your tank is 5-10 gallons and you wish to cycle it you can add sections of bio-media to the filter. Usually either reticulated sponge or you can purchase penn-plax filters' "cascade" line bio-fiber at two layers per box from most petSupermarkets for a very low price. When I buy walmart filters for people I replace the craptastic bio-fiber in them with the penn-plax stuff. If you're only keeping a male betta in a tank you really only need about three cubic inches of medium density media. This comes out to about ten square inches of under-gravel or a two by three sheet half an inch thick. This is roughly the amount of surface given in the $10.00 90gph filters at walmart... they get clogged if you push them too hard.

Sponge Filters are often a good bet for Betta tanks because they flow upwards and out, thus spreading the water current the entire area of the tank instead of having a dastardly sudden little flow to pound their eyes against the glass. Sponges can also be used on the output of filters to slow the flow down but remember to treat them as bio-filtration as well. If you're only going to have one betta and no other fish in a tank, whatever the size of the tank the little 5g sponge filters will work fine.

Intake sponges, either Pondmaster (lfs) or Fluval Edge (petco, bigalsonline etc) can keep your betta from perching on pipe type filter intakes... Cut sections of sponge held on with rubber band can stop them on most the tetra whisper type filters.

Small Tetra brand tanks with the Whisper 3i filter NEED intake sponges, they're little suction monsters that can pin small betta down in the water.

Keep in mind that the things a betta can survive will usually kill other fish, so learn well before you decide to take care of other fish or put other fish in with your betta. Male betta fins are large chinese buffet to many breeds of fish and they have very little tolerance for active-displaying males and females of any species.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

That was a bit confusing but I think i *might* get it?
PS. While we're talking about filters......when I'm changing carbon how do I do so without getting rid of the B.B. On the Carbon Bag?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

You don't really need to use carbon....its a personal choice......more than a need......what kind of filter media do you use...is the carbon part of the sponge.....


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

Oldfishlady said:


> You don't really need to use carbon....its a personal choice......more than a need......what kind of filter media do you use...is the carbon part of the sponge.....


 Technically the carbon "in the bag" is worthless. Flake carbon must occlude the water flow enough that a portion of the water is forced through it. This means that loose carbon is worthless, re-formed pellets of carbon is worthless and carbon "impregnated" sponges are worthless. They don't actually mechanically filter the water. You'll find, in the long run, that a nice plant in the tank does more for filtration and neutralization of the small amount of "bad" chemistry than any carbon filter ever will. The two types of carbon filtration that work are slat-and-slot (marineland/aqua-tech/penn-plax cascade external) and compressed satchet (AquaClear packs have to be wedged in place), everything else with any percentage of bypass, such as pelletized carbon or carbon "impregnated" foam are worthless, the first bacteria coat will neutralize them. Even flake carbon in the marineland style slat-and-slot cartridges becomes worthless after about six days because it builds up a slime coat of bacteria. The carbon filtration inside drinking water filters uses solid single blocks of recompressed carbon, turning it into one solid flake with no bypass.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

I just use carbon as media but I'm also able (and probobly supposed) to get a sponge and bio media. The carbon is *not *part of the sponge.....I have the aqua clear 20 filter


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Paramaters Today:
Ammonia - Minimal ~ 0.2 ppm
Nitrite - Minimal ~ 0.1 ppm
Nitrate - Minimal ~ 3 ppm

So I'll do a 25% change


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

You really need to get a sponge or cram some poly fill in that section...more surface area the better....

You are using Prime correct...if so, I wouldn't worry about those numbers at this stage as long as the fish is acting fine.....when was the last water change......


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Oldfishlady said:


> You really need to get a sponge or cram some poly fill in that section...more surface area the better....
> 
> You are using Prime correct...if so, I wouldn't worry about those numbers at this stage as long as the fish is acting fine.....when was the last water change......


Ok the sponge is *really *cheap so I might get it.....Yes, I use prime and the last water change was 50% yesterday


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah sponge works great for biological filtration. It's all I use in my goldfish tank (they produce a lot of waste) and I always have 0 readings for ammonia and nitrite even when it goes a few weeks without a water change. 

Plus any leftover sponge makes a good algae cleaner as you know it's definitely fish safe.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

jman - I have an Aquaclear on my 25 gal. The most important part of that filter is the sponge section. Those biological bags are good too. But the carbon bag will only last about 12 days, so it's pretty useless. As OFL stated, carbon is a personal choice but not really necessary. As she suggested, in place of the carbon (and even that biological bag) is some poly fill. I got a nice size bag for about $6. Cut it and fit it down inside your Aquaclear in place of the carbon bag and/or biological bag. The poly fill is a great housing area for beneficial bacteria. Our filters really do best at cleaning the water of any particulate matter. The carbon is good for removing med's if you're fighting a disease, and of course the filter circulates the water. The outflow creates oxygen, but for our betta's, that's not really necessary.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Why will it only last 12 days? And where do I get poly fill?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

You're in BC so I'm not sure if your pet stores/fish stores carry it. It should be in a bag, hanging in the section where you buy filter replacement inserts, etc. I know you can purchase it online too. In regards to carbon: Carbon can only filter so much before it gets "used up" (so to speak). That's why you have to replace them. One of the reasons the manufacturers tell you to rinse them in old tank water is #1 you need to get the old gross particulate matter off of the fibers. But #2 it's to reposition the carbon and expose new carbon surface. This is usually why the manufacturers say you should replace them once a month.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok......so it's at the lps so is it just loose or is it in a media bag? Do I just stuff it in the filter? So like stated before is it ok to use it for 3 months like previously stated in the other thread?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Mine came in a sheet, about the size of a small pillowcase. It was tri-folded into a bag. I just unfolded it and then cut it to size. You can probably cut a strip about 5" long and 3" wide (I'm guessing because I don't have my Aquaclear in front of me for exact measurments). Then you can fold it or tri-fold that piece and just stick it right in filter area. Preferrably ontop of the sponge you'll buy  In regards to using it for 3 months - I can't remember specifically what we were discussing in the other thread. Remind me?


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> Mine came in a sheet, about the size of a small pillowcase. It was tri-folded into a bag. I just unfolded it and then cut it to size. You can probably cut a strip about 5" long and 3" wide (I'm guessing because I don't have my Aquaclear in front of me for exact measurments). Then you can fold it or tri-fold that piece and just stick it right in filter area. Preferrably ontop of the sponge you'll buy  In regards to using it for 3 months - I can't remember specifically what we were discussing in the other thread. Remind me?


I just said how long can it go before I change the carbon? And you or maybe it was @youlovegnats but someone said you can keep it for 3 months then replace it.....Also, I heard if you use the sponge and/or the bio media you can get for the aqua clear filters you never have to change them, only the carbon. Is that true?

P.S. I'm making my tank divider today !


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember the conversation. In regards to the carbon filter, you need to replace them once a month. That's assuming a standard 2x month water change - rinsing and swishing in old tank water. That is, if you're using it for filtration purposes. In regards to the 3 month comment: That was referring to the Aquaclear set up. Aquaclear is a 3-stage system: one level sponge, second level carbon, third level biomedia. One month you'd change the sponge, second month you'd change the carbon, third month you'd change the biomedia. Hence 3 month system. Aquaclear's claim to fame is that you can change each level at different times to avoid any chance of a mini-cycle. I've never heard that you don't ever remove the sponge or biomedia. Aquaclear states they all need replacement at some time. However, I've read on this forum that folks leave their sponges until they're literally falling apart. They're used for beneficial bacteria vs. using them for filtration. So they give them a swish in old tank water every couple of weeks and just put them back in.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

So you swish in tank water? But when you're putting in *new* media if you *do* replace it *all* at the same time do you lose your B.B. And have to do the cycle again?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Beneficial bacteria live on multiple items in your tank. Not just the media in the filter. For example: You have a filter pad in your filter and it's two weeks old. You do a water change. After you remove the old tank water, you take out your filter pad and swish it in the old tank water. Getting rid of any build up residue, poo, etc. You put it back in the filter, assured that a large portion of the beneficial bacteria still remain. Two weeks later you do another water change. You'll take a new filter and rinse that in the old tank water, assuring that you get rid of any carbon dust, particles, etc. Throw away the old filter (along with all of it's beneficial bacteria) and add your new filter. Although you're removing the beneficial bacteria that was living in the old filter, you have enough bacteria on your intake tube, the internal parts of your filter, the gravel, your decorations, sponge on your baffle, etc. Your tank won't re-cycle, especially with only one or two bettas in the tank. There are only a few things that cause a tank to re-cycle ie. using meds that may kill your bacteria, cleaning all your decorations at one time, adding a ton of new fish, etc. By the way, I looked at my poly fill. It's made by Marineland. It's called "Bonded Filter Pad". You can google it and see what the packaging looks like.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I get my poly fill in the craft dept at Wal Mart for about 3 bucks....you don't need to change the filter media until it is falling apart....I change mine 1-2 times a year at most.

Carbon you change per direction on the package...depending on the type it only active for 2-4 weeks.....you don't need carbon or activated charcoal.....but...it a good idea to have some fresh carbon/activated charcoal on hand all the time....great for emergency....accidents happen and if you have activated charcoal on hand it can save you sometimes......not always....but it never hurts to try.....lol.......for example...a toxic substance fell in the tank, forgot that you had poison on your hands...etc.....pop in that carbon after the water change to help remove the toxic substance......saved my fish more than once......flea powder in my case......

You don't need to keep it in the tank all the time....but keeping some in an air tight container close by is a good idea......


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thanks OFL!! I never knew that about carbon. I will always keep some on hand now! I'm also off to Walmart to get some poly fill. This is such a great forum . . .


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok I see.....Good to know. Yes it is a great forum isn't it?


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Paramaters today still very low 0.1 nitrite and like 0.3 ammonia so I won't change it again


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## lordadamar (Aug 24, 2011)

I have also found a way to kick start cycling is to use aged water from one of my other tanks...

Fortunately I have a heavily planted 55 gallon aquarium I can rob water from to kick start my Nano tanks...

I usually do 50% aged / 50% tap, cuts the cycling time way down...


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Just went to the LPS and picked up the biomax and foam inserts for my filter, so I'll put them in


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Good job on purchasing the other filter inserts. Any additional surface area you can provide for new bacteria is great!! As @lordadamar stated above, do you have any friends with an established, cycled tank? If so, just let us know and we can direct you on how to use their substrate/filter floss/decorations/etc. to kick-start your cycle.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Not that I know of......I don't think any of my friends are into fish


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I wanted to ask, just to make sure we weren't missing an opportunity to cycle your tank quicker! I think we discussed it on the other thread, but we've been talking for so long I just couldn't remember!


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## lordadamar (Aug 24, 2011)

If you have no friends with tanks, sometimes your local pet shop ( Not chain store ) can lend you a hand with aged water....


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yes, if you have a local fish store, one that you *explicity* trust with their husbandry, then you can ask for a small bag of rocks or substrate from one of their existing tanks. You can even get a baggie full of water expressed from their filter media. However, you must really trust that their tanks have been disease free for at least 11 months. Just as @loradamar stated, you never want to get media from a chain store ie. petco, walmart, etc. Their turnover rate is so high that their tanks are sure to house some diseases. Some local owned fish stores claim that they QT all new arrival fish to insure they are not carrying diseases. But even with that, you run the risk of infecting your tank.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

I do trust one.....but I don't know if I trust it THAT much


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

This company: http://www.tlc-products.com/ provides products shipped to local fish stores. My local carries a selection of bottle sizes of fresh and salt water starter cultures in both filtration harvest and bio-culture bacteria cultures. The filter harvested material is about three bucks and the full-fledged start-right bottle is ten bucks. I've never had either go wrong.
"TLC for Fresh Water Aquariums" A white bottle the size of the second smallest prime bottle. Shake it fairly well before use and pour it so the filter can cycle it through the bio-media.
I've started six tanks from sterile with this product alone.


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## lordadamar (Aug 24, 2011)

Theres been a large debate over whether the bottled Bacteria agents actually work as stated... 

The advantage to Aged water and Substrate is the Bacteria is already healthy and growing....

Substrate: will harbor the healthy bacteria
Aged Water : will already have the chemical composition to give the bacteria fighting chance to take hold in a new tank Quicker


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I would love for the bacteria-in-a-bottle to work, and I've read that the refrigerated brands are better, but personally they've never worked for me. However, if @thunderloon has had that much success with this product than it's worth a try. Through my research I've found that the majority of all experienced fish keepers prefer the natural approach to cycling, as @loradamar stated above. I used substrate and 50% aged water from an established tank to start my 25 gal and the cycle was non-existent. Oh the glory of having established bacteria!


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## lordadamar (Aug 24, 2011)

I really would beg your local pet shop for water and a cup of substrate..

Speaking from experience:

I live in an area of the country where the nearest pet shop is 40 miles away and I dont trust there water cause I have seen the level of care, and it took me roughly 6-8 weeks to cycle a 55 Gallon tank and stop random spikes...

And that was with:

Bacteria-in-a-bottle
Engineered Substrate for planted tanks
And tons of real plants...
108 watts of light to mimic the sun

Now that I have that tank sustainable, I use it to start every other tank I have...

Please note, this was a fishless cycle...


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

I might but I don't really mind the way it's going now.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

My ammonia is quite high today so I'm going to change 50% after work with vacuum because OFL said to vacuum weekly even during cycling. But I had almost no nitrites today.....just high ammonia..... Is that normal?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

@jman, you're obviously diligent and wanting to learns tons about larger tanks, fishkeeping, etc. Do you know that you have access to another forum through bettafish?? It's called tropicalfishkeeping.com Since you're already a member of this forum, you're automatically a member of tropicalfishkeeping. You can pop over there and check it out. You'll see me, OFL, Dramaqueen, lots of us over there! Obviously it's not geared for bettas - that's what this site is all about. But it has awesome information on water chemistry, cycling, how to start using live plants, all kinds of information. That's where I'm learning to get my first planted tank up and running. It's just wonderful. I'm over there all the time. Everyone is very helpful and very nice, just like here at bettafish. It's another wealth of information to keep under your belt.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Yup  I'm a linking member to it


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Here's a typical cycle: Ammonia appears. Starts slow and steady and then spikes. Ammonia starts to decrease. Then disappears to 0. Nitrites appear slow and steady. Then they spike. Nitrites start to decrease. Then disappears to 0. Then nitrAtes appear and usually stay stable. That's typical. Every set up is different. But to answer your specific question, yes it's normal for your ammonia to spike. Good sign - it's cycling!


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## lordadamar (Aug 24, 2011)

I would be glad to answer large tank questions


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

@lodadamar - Yea! Another large tank person! We get a lot of cycling questions when folks want to upgrade. Glad to have you here. Obviously you've been on the forum for a little while now, but welcome! I have family in IA so I've been through NE quite a bit in my life. I love the mid-west.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

So I changed 50% (water change from hell.....nothing worked smoothly:evil But it's all good now . So since I vacuumed the gravel, how long til the cloudiness goes away? :BIGtongue:

EDIT: And I *STILL HAVE HIGH AMMONIA!!:evil::evil::evil:*


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

How high is high......and you are using Prime correct.....how is the Betta acting....

The cloudiness should go away within an hour or so unless it a bacterial bloom and that is often normal with a cycling tank and will resolve in a day or so.....just watch the fish....as long as you don't see any behavior changes....all should be fine......


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## lordadamar (Aug 24, 2011)

Im going to put together a post about combating Ammonia seems to be allot of issues with that... Easy ways

This works extremely well for small tank applications

http://www.kentmarine.com/products/kent-betta-bowl-essential.htm

If you dont like Kent products

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/BettaBasics.html

This also works to clear up the water

http://www.kentmarine.com/products/kent-proclear-freshwtr-clarifier.htm


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

I just tested my PH and there is a chart on my ammonia test that compares ph reading to ammonia reading and gives you a new number. My ammonia reads about 0.8-1 ish but my ph is 7.8 ish so the chard says the ammonia then is .04 ppm so almost nothing.....I don't get it though because my *ammonia only* shows about 1ppm ammonia.....then the kit shows a chart to compare with ph to get a really small .04ppm reading


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Remember-the Prime is changing the ammonia to ammonium a less harmful form...this is when observation come in.......watch the fish......pH can also change once it de-gases too...wait 24h for the true reading.....

I would strongly recommend that you do some research...using 3-4 different sources (not fish forums) and learn as much as you can in regard to the water chemistry....the more you understand the better you will feel...


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Yes but i only dose with prime for the *new *water so it doesn't have enough dose for the old water also


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

which is where the ammonia is.....in the old water....Correct?


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Also I'm leaving for the weekend so I hope even with the high ammonia he'll be ok


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

You only dose with Prime for the new water your adding. You're not trying to dose the whole tank, as that is only done in emergency situations. The dose you're providing is taking care of the entire tank, so no need to worry. I've been doing 50% water changes for the last week because I'm currently cycling with fish-in too. My nitrites are finally started to fall. I was concerned about my fish too, but they're blowing bubble nests through it all so I know they're okay. Just as OFL stated, it's best to bounce around outside of the forums and learn about water chemistry, cycling, the scientific facts behind Prime, etc. This will help you feel more comfortable about the advice and direction you're receiving here. I wish I could help you understand your Test Kit, but mine is API's Freshwater Kit and it measures by PPM. I know there is a lot of information out there on the mg kits as well. As long as you're doing frequent water changes, your little friend will be well and happy as you continue to learn about this wonderful fish hobby of ours. I know I have a looooong way to go before I could even dream of being a Super Mod! You're on the right road to success!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I've read that Prime is good for 48 hours, but the standard is 24-36hrs. I'm sure if you're leaving on Saturday and returning on Sunday he should be just fine.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

My test kit also meausures in ppm......and I'm leaving today (Friday) and coming back Sunday


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I pulled out the instruction manual on my Test Kit and it doesn't indicate a difference in your ammonia readings based on your pH. I've personally never heard about that, however, I'm the wrong person to verify or clarify that situation. I'm certainly not a water chemistry major!  I would tend to learn toward conservative and go with the straight ammonia reading, but I'm overly cautious anyway. 1.0ppm is normal for cycling, but it is very toxic to your little guy, so I'd say better safe than sorry.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Just got home and it seems that now my ammonia has dropped alot and is pretty low and my nitrites are also pretty low. So I have no clue how ammonia went from like really high to really low but it did. And my nitrites are hovering around normal but a bit on the high side so I'll do a water change . And @flowerslegacy I'm just going to ignore comparing it to the ph because it make no sense at all and just use ammonia reading.....By the way what is a good PH for bettas?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Bettas are generally a soft water fish (7.0-7.4 pH). However, they can thrive at higher pH levels. My pH is 8.0. Some very experienced fish keepers, who are good at water chemistry and understanding pH products, work to keep their pH down. However, it's a tough thing to do. I'm not a water chemist so I don't attempt it! There are multiple factors involved. Through all of my research on pH, I've learned that a stable pH is much more important than trying to keep your pH low and causing fluctuations. Fluctuating pH levels are very stressful on the fish and very unhealthy for them. So I don't touch mine. When you test your pH level, take out a little and let it sit for 24 hours. The water needs to release it's gases to get a true pH reading. They call this "gassing out". In regards to your ammonia dropping - that's not surprising. Ammonia will drop then nitrites will start to climb. Also, be sure you shake those testing bottles really well before you use them. The reagent can settle to the bottom of the bottles and give you skewed results.


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## jman828 (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok awesome  mine is around there.


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