# Hope this Works Out!!!



## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

So I just found out that my two bettas Sally and Senior Rojo are in true love but I never would have bred them because she is a halfmoon salamander and he is a red crowntail. Within the first five minutes she barred up with thick bars and he made an inch thick nect spanning across the whole cup(no joke). So I let them out last night and this morning they are under the cup but not wrapping. I assume they will spawn tonight or inn the afternoon. Well without further ado here they are.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

what do you think I will get if these guys spawn?


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

They are wrapping as i type right now!!!!!!! So happy.......yayyyyyyyyyyy.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I'm guessing messy fins and multi colors.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

wait what do you mean "messy fins". I know I will come out with a mixture but if i cross them back with the mother will the fins look less messy


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Like crap fins. That's all I can say. You'll have bad combtails and if this is one of your first spawns they'll grow too slow to breed back to mom.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh okay then.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Ya but the colors will be interesting. If you do good with this spawn go for a nice pair next spawn.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

So I just netted the female and put her into her own 2.5 sparkly clean tank and senior rojo is taking care of the eggs. First spawn and I hop[e it works out.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

If the spawn eventually grows into juvies, you may need some indian almond leaf to help crowntail/ combtail fins from curling once they are jarred. I don't currently work with crowntails, but I know that their finnage will curl very easily if the ph is too high.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

I have some in there right now, but I never knew that. Thanks.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

so will the fry's fins look like this when they mature, because I don't think these are crap fins


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Nope, they will look like this, maybe with a wider caudal spread. These fry are CT x VT... The ones you pictured are not first generation combtail. Is your crowntail male a HM CT? If not, you will most likely get SDs with some spiking.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes he is a 180 degree spread crowntail. so what will the fry be then darkmoon? will they be halfsuns like the one i pictured.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

You will probably get a mix of bettas with HM and SD caudal spreads but their spikes will look like the ones I pictures most likely. You might get a few random ones with nicer rays but it takes a few generations to get nice combtail/halfsuns like the ones you pictured. You might get some that look like the last one you pictured though since that is just a crowntail with slightly shorter rays.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh okay. Thanks so much.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

so the male is still mouthing at the nest and picking up the falling eggs. I counted at least 30. when will they hatch if they embraced yesterday. I heard 48 hours I just want to make sure everything is perfect. This is my first spawn where the dad didnt eat the eggs. so excited!!!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I still stand...CT to any other tail types is gonna produce messy fins. You will NOT get fins like that. It takes generations to get a fish like those you posted.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

okay I will probably cross one of these offspring to a halfmoon to reduce the fringe. will that get me halfsuns or do i have to cross brother to sister to get halfsuns.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Cross back to mom....if you can grow them fast enough.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

the mom is only four months old, so do you think i can grow them fast enough I have a 55 gallon growout tank.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

You might but I doubt it. To get a fish to size that quickly requires several feedings a day of the best foods, large daily water changes etc.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

I will do the best I can and if I am going to cross the mom back to the son, what should I look for in the son. Should I look for one with the least amount of fringe or one that has the same coloring as the mom.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Fins first color last. Look for less fringe but even. Look for a good spread...as close to 180* as you can. Remember these are not sanctioned in the IBC.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

okay I will update you guys when the eggs hatch.


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## kathstew (Feb 23, 2011)

How is it going?


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

they are doing fine. about 20 are free swimming but there are probably a lot in the moss and plants. There are still a lot hanging from the nest.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

is that normal. and should there be that many for a first spawn.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

they are so tinnnyy! there are a few that are clear, a few that are like a grayish color, and one that is just red!!!! I know i am not supposed to see color but unless my eyes are lying they are these colors. is that normal??


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

Sorry I didn't know you had this thread going. Normal fry count? That just depends on how old they are and if it's their first time spawning. I had about 200 from a first time spawner that were free swimming yesterday. I've had as few as 50 or so to (and I counted every single one) 619 fry from one female. Sometimes the male will eat the unfertilized eggs and other times the male will just eat the whole batch of eggs or fry for what ever reason.


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

I ran out of time the last post and none of it showed up so I'll try again. I've done several spawns like the one you did and here is what you'll get from it.














I don't think those are "messed up fins". Combtails and Halfsuns. Then a couple generations later I have these.


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

One other point I'd like to make is that I see no reason why you couldn't raise a few of the fry to breedable size in 4 to 5 months to spawn back to the father if you are wanting Crowntails or the mother if you want to go that route. I've bred a lot of females back to the father to fix a trait or color that I wanted. I've never bred a male back to the mother though. I feel it's the same as with dogs. Breeding a son to the mother gives inferior pups.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh okay so I will breed a female back to her father. wgat should i look for in that female fry. most fringe?most unique color?


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## JaspersANGEL (Oct 12, 2009)

I'd assume u'd be looking for the same thing u would if u were breeding a male to his mom.


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

mernincrazy8525 said:


> oh okay so I will breed a female back to her father. wgat should i look for in that female fry. most fringe?most unique color?


I suppose you'll have to wait and see what the outcome is but it depends on what your breeding for or what direction you want your line to go in. Not knowing the background of either fish you won't know the outcome. So picking the best female with the best finnage and color you are trying for and pick the best male with the same characteristics and go from there. You don't absolutely have to do a back cross.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

okay. I know the backround of the mother. Her grandpa was a royal blue halfmoon plakat and her grandma was a salamander halfmoon with the long, big ears. Her dad and mom were two fry from the grandparents spawn. The male was just a lfs red crowntail. So knowing the backround of the mother does that help determine what the fry will look like colowise. I know its hard cause the male was a petstore buy. thanks so much for all your help everyone!! I will give you an update when there is a major change with the fry.


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## kathstew (Feb 23, 2011)

What happened with this spawn?


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> Cross back to mom....if you can grow them fast enough.


I agree with MrV. Many professional breeders are unable to grow the fry fast enough to cross back to mom. On another note, the Ragdoll breed of cat was started by crossing a son to mother and later outcrossing. The female bettas seems to wear the genes in the family, IMHO.


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

I don't think it should be so hard to raise a fry to adult in 4 or 5 months to be big enough to breed back to the mother and I don't choose my spawns by the mothers genes alone. I'd like to read this information your quoting. I have well over 200 adult males and more than that in females. I've sold several hundred since posting them for sale in the last ten months. If you are quoting from personal experience then that could explain things but saying that most proffesssional breeders can't raise fry fast enough and the female carrying the genes just isn't giving good and correct advice.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I find betta genetics very interesting and unpredictable, specially if you don't know their genetic background. I have found that in terms of form, mom's gene is much more dominant compared to dad's. But for colors ..... I can't say the same. 

I've read about mom's dominance in both western and local forums (but I can't quote them because I can't exactly remember where). But to my experience I have never achieved better finnage using a poor quality female. It doesn't matter how many new perfect HM genes (male) I used, I could never get perfect offspring. But I could get perfect HM if I used a perfect female though the male is a SDT. (by perfect HM, I mean a 180 sharp edged caudal spread with dorsal and anal either up right or leaning forward)

As for color : I did a copper to copper, then (always taking the female) F copper to M yellow (got: copper, platinum) then F copper to M pineapple (poor dragon genes). I came up with a buch of colors I never even thought of - cambodian/red dragon like (dominant), red copper, marbles, and a few blacks. I'm guessing all this came from dad. Recently I took that black F and spawned it to a black dragon and got marbles (dominant) and blacks. No copper, no cambodian like color or any light color for that matter (I have 3 batches ranging from 2 cm to 1/2 cm). 

From the last 2 generations I conclude that dad is dominant for color while mom is dominant for form.

If you plan to backcross to mom, you could stunt mom's growth and boost fry growth. I often stunt female's growth in general so they won't be too big for any of my males - I found that if you spawned a male since young, he tends to be smaller than normal. And because most of my females are very fat, thus I want them smaller than the male to get better results. 

But in the case of backcrossing to dad there shouldn't be any problems because the female/daughter would be smaller than dad.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

indjo that was the most confusing thing that I have ever read. So how do stunt a females growth?


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh and an update on the fry. they are starting to show red. they look like mini cambodian adults. some are black. i am surprised by the black. these guys hatched may 9th so you guys do the math on how old they are.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

they are one month and three days old for those who can't do math. lol


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Is it? Sorry.... basically if you want to improve form, it's best to use a very good quality female. But if you want color, use a male of the color and pattern that you want.

The females I would most likely breed are kept in smaller tanks - either in 1/2g or 1g. And I wouldn't feed her as much or as often as I feed the male. I only do this to "special" females I want to keep small. Those in the sororities will grow faster and often become bigger than the male.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh that was a lot more understandable. I'm blonde so it takes me a while. so what would happen if i bred a male with amazing coloring and a female with perfect form, would you have amazing fry!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Theoretically, yes. But I often find these guys to be unpredictable.... even in my inbreeding (F2 and F3). All the theories I've read (specially the mendelian squares) don't work for me.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

so what spawns do you have going on right now? any selling age?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

My oldest fry is 2 months - blue x green HM..... offspring are delta. If vendors won't take them, I will have to cull them. 

I also have a light colored double T spawn - father is a severe egg/fry eater but I had over 50. As always water changes are killing them. I only have about 30 left.

Then there's my black dragon x a black female of my own spawn (I only have 3 females left). I have 3 batches (1 week apart), The first is the weakest (smaller than the third batch). The second batch is about 2 - 2.5cm and they seem to have great form. Problem is, most of them are marbles (all 3 batches). I was hoping for black dragons or blacks.

I had a yellow dragon spawn (worst egg eater I have) but I goofed and lost all but 2 fry.

Newly bought fish are mostly egg eaters. They are either bad spawners or simply psychotic. I haven't had much luck lately, only 1 out of five spawns produced fry and they're only about 100 each .... was.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

awwww well I wish you the best of luck with future spawns. If the vendors won't take them, you know I will!


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## kathstew (Feb 23, 2011)

Can you get some pics of the fry? I'd love to see them!


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

sure I will take and post them this weekend!


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

I can't wait to see the pictures! May I clarify what I said earlier? Honestly, there is no way that any of the male bettas in my first few spawns as a kid would be large enough to backcross. Of course there was no internet then. Many(not most) betta breeders do have problems with mother son crosses as the fish get closer and closer to F10 because the females tend to start growing faster than the males the closer you get to a pure breeding strain. Perhaps this is a way that nature tries to prevent future inbreeding? Indjo mentioned the technique of stunting the female because I think he knew what I meant. I have also learned to keep a few females with good potential small. They will get huge if you leave them in a sorority. ;-)


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

F10? Wow, I would think there would be nothing but deformed mutants if I inbred ten times. I like to cross breed related Bettas with maybe a sibling spawn and then a father to daughter but after that cousins for a generation or two before I outcross. Maybe that's why I don't have very many deformities. The point of a mother son backcross is very much on cue I must say as my females get rather huge after 6 months of age. Most of my strains are a little on the large size so I can breed my females until they get quite large. If they haven't been bred by the time they are 9 or 10 months old they are usually too aggressive.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

Richard you females are HUGE!!!! I don't even want to see your sorority females because the breeder females you sent to me are ginormous!


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

There is no cover on the sorority tank. I haven't seen the cat or my parrot for several weeks now. I can't imagine what could have happened to them.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

I know wat happened to them. The JAWS of female bettas ate them. and all that was left was a feather and a kitty toy! oh and check your pm box


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

I have a female betta that I refuse to breed because she is small and has *very* sharp teeth. I love her.;-)


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

double post ;-)


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

wait betta have teeth!!?!?!? i never new that!


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

When I attempted to breed a pair of Petco "King" halfGiants the female took one bite out of the males side about the size of a short pencil eraser. I could see his stomach lining through the hole she left. Another smidgen of and inch and he would probably have been dead. As it was it took a good 2 months for him to heal up. Sometimes you have to watch the females for aggression more than the males.


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## Panthera (Nov 2, 2010)

I had one of Richards females, named her Daxia. Girl was frickin HUGE, tore up 3 males, couldn't even spawn her lol Not to mention put her in a sorority, she was alpha within 2 minutes, and if anyone challenged her, they would end up with 0 fins left. 

Sadly she died and I never got any babies  But maybe another female like her someday


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

*Bad Girl!*

Was she one of my Blue or Green HM's? Those or the Butterflies and Marbles. They are all from the same line and they are all little b**ches. The males from that line are quite large as well so I don't have any problems spawning them. Let me know if you ever want to breed some again and I'll set you up with something smaller and more docile!


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

i can spawn richard's females but they are just huge so the males are awkward around them when spawning.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

update: the fry are showing a lot of coloring now. some very unique colring that i have no idea where it came from. there are coppers with red washes, ones with blue bodies and red fins, reds, purples, and light aqua blues. still can't get pics becasue my camera wont focus on them. i still can't notice the combtail tails. they look like mini halfmoons. they are really long!! like some of their bodies are this long -------. they have short fins though


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

They sound beautiful!


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

thanks i find them beautiful too.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

finally some long awaited pictures of the fry. i finally jarred all of them. I am afraid that they are still small! i did twice weekly 50 percent water change and fed them frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms twice a day. they were in a 55 gallon.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)




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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

Looks to me like you are going to have some nice Crowntails the way their fins are growing. Might be that the mother had a little CT in her background.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

yayy. so i wont get some messy fins? or will i get some crowntails and some combtails.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh and a little update: the mother passed away yesterday because on of my bigger females lets just say they picked on her a lot. i wasnt aware of this because when i go over to the tank they all stop what they are doing and beg for food. i had her quarintined for like a week but it didnt work. the father is still alive and healthy.


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## Jirothebetta (Jul 15, 2011)

Awwww, sorry about your loss mernincrazy, she produced some beautiful babies ;-)


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

yes she did.


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

mernincrazy8525 said:


> yayy. so i wont get some messy fins? or will i get some crowntails and some combtails.


I don't know what's meant by messy fins. There will be varying degrees of webbing reduction. If I remember right the female was a Halfmoon so Combtails and Halfsuns are highly possible. I have posted both on Aquabid before and most of the time they sell faster than anything else I have.


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## bettaloverforever16 (Jan 14, 2011)

Sorry for your loss ):

On the up-side you have some beautiful babies on your hands!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Those babies are beautiful, Mernin! You're doing a great job


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

thanks guys. richard especially!! i meant combtails by messy fins. sorry bout that.


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

How do you think I got my 8 ray Crowntails? By crossing to Halfmoons and Super Deltas.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh then I will get some cool fins if they look like that! 

update: one confirmed male. i saw one get breeding stripes but I don't know if that means its a female or can juvies get them too?


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

Males and females will get those even adult males if stressed or startled with stripe up.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

even with vertical stripes. i thought when they stree they get horzontal stripes?


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

They do but can also bar up. See the stripes on this Gold male. When his spawn were juvies I thought a lot of them were females.







This guy bars up three times as bad as he is in this photo when I change his water or move him around.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

oh. I stand corrected. so there is only one confirmed male.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

two confirmed males. one is red and one is a red and blue multi. the red seems to have more fringe and the multi seems to have none at all.


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## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

I love a few of the juv pics you posted c: Some of them will have lovely fins I think


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

thank you. which ones did you like?


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## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

2nd picture on page seven I think was my favorite


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

that one is still undecided. i know i shouldnt pick favorites but my favorite is the purpley one on page eight.


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

wow i love the parents, you can get some half-suns, or even a half-moon crown tail fries, and congrats on your spawn =D


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## bettaluvies (Aug 21, 2011)

wow, that came out cool. i also want to breed bettas at some stage, didnt realise there were this many things to consider. this thread has been informative, before i just thought that colours were somewhat random but mostly the female and the male put together and some like the male and some like the female. didnt realise the female dominates shape, the male the colour and all of that. nor did i know that its not a good idea to cross some types, or that females in sororities get huge. like i said - insightful.


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

haha yes it was very informitive. i learned all from this spawn. thanks guys.


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## Smr2892 (May 17, 2011)

Mernin they're gorgeous! I want more pictures!


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## Chard56 (Jan 22, 2011)

New pictures PLEASE!


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

yes will upload them later.


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## Jirothebetta (Jul 15, 2011)

mernincrazy8525 said:


> Richard you females are HUGE!!!! I don't even want to see your sorority females because the breeder females you sent to me are ginormous!


XD I just went back and caught up on this spawn They are all so beautiful! I would love to see some new pics of them ;-) ...and yes, Chards girls are HUGE! I didn't realize it till I added them to my sorority...they made my pet store girls look like fry -_- ...I never had too much trouble with aggression from them though, her and Jiro's spawn was actually more exciting than terrifying, they went together like two peas in a pod...except for the fact that Jiro's missing a part of his beard now :shock:


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## mernincrazy8525 (Feb 28, 2011)

thanks jiro. and poor baby boy. his beard needs mending.


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## Jirothebetta (Jul 15, 2011)

Yeah, I didn't notice it till a little after I had put her in there(well, actually she jumped into his tank...but thats a long story) They had been doing a little chasing and nipping(no telling how much before I had gotten there) no body was really tore up and they were more dancing and following each other than anything, then I noticed Jiro flare up really nice and big for her and realized he looked a little...erm...unsymmetrical O.O I was like "What happened to the other side of you beard Jiro?" and Jiro was like "The things I do for love...or lost rather..."  ...XD all's, well now though...it actually was the best spawn I had ever had, he's still a little lop sided, but less so I think ;-) Kurai on the other hand is completely 100% healed, you can't even tell she was ever bred XD


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