# Doubletail x Doubletail Geno



## Sena Hansler

So, *Janey* (DTg) and *Mickey* (DT) were placed together in a 10 gallon spawn tank, at 1pm on Tuesday. Wednesday they spawned at 11am, and since then the father has been caring for the nest. Since I know from last time... She gives you a butt-load of eggs :lol: So a few eaten eggs and fry won't matter!

_Yes_, I do know he is short bodied. Since this is a DOUBLETAIL spawn, heavy culling is going to happen anyways. Short bodies you can breed out... That's the easy part. The hard part is the actual finnage, having the caudal symmetrical is in itself a hard task. But it's doable ;-) I will probably breed F1 on, since doubletails are almost non-existent here.

_Patiently awaiting tails._


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## Sena Hansler

He has been carefully tending to his nest, flaring at anything else that moves, defending his precious nest :lol:


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## Syriiven

Aww~ they look great, I bet the babies are going to be so cute!


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## MattsBettas

Awesome! Will be watching this!


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## Sena Hansler

So, took the dad out. I am not sure if he ate a lot of the eggs/babies... So I took him out. He keeps moving the eggs everywhere so I have no idea where I am supposed to look xD I do see one jumping fry, waaaay in the back where I have no ability to check the nest -.- Little turkey... The Giant's tank is right next to it (with 4 inches in-between) so I can't peak in D: :lol:


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## Sena Hansler

*Sorry Mickey!!*

Bah!! I'm sorry Mr. Mom, if you had the nest where I could see it I would know there were HUNDREDS OF LITTLE TAILS x.x Whoops. Well... Now I have to be "dad" :roll: He is unhappy with me... And I don't blame him :|

Anyways... Pictures! Can you spot the hundreds of tails? -.-; All well... This will be a heavy cull spawn anyways. Any deformities, plus the wonkiest tails. Any GENOS I find I will be keeping, and if anyone wants them on here, you get first dibs. As for the actual DT ones, I'll be breeding the best from F1, and then have to bring in another single-tail to avoid major deformities in a third spawn. I might even bring in a dragonscale, if I can, and see what I can get ;D


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## logisticsguy

Oh Wow. Looks like it could be another huge spawn! Can I reserve a couple of the better fry from this spawn?


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## Sena Hansler

Yes  I am sure we'll have plenty to choose from xD If you want, I'll give you a geno if there is one. Since I learned DT x DT can only be one generation... Then DTgeno or single tail x DT is best.  If you decided to breed that is.


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## logisticsguy

Awesome. I did not know that about the DT geno. I swear that I learn something new about bettas every single day. Good luck with the fry Sena.


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## madmonahan

I cant wait to see how the fry turn out!!


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## Sena Hansler

Thanks =D So now I have 14 crowntail fry and these fellas. I'm excited :3


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## Sena Hansler

Definitely a whack load of fry... This should be good for culling actually... A lot more to choose from! xD Janey is by far my favorite breeder female right now <3 :lol:


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## MattsBettas

Looking great! Are they free swimming yet?


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## Sena Hansler

They are trying!! Lol. Saw the first one try to and bonked a sibling on the head xD


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## MattsBettas

Hahaha aren't they awesome!


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## Sena Hansler

Can't wait to see the fins  same with the 14 crowntails too!!


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## MattsBettas

Neither can I!


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## Sena Hansler

Half are swimming now, the others are still learning. Not as many as the last spawn with Janey, but a good number to choose from


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## Sena Hansler

Babies :3 Fed them as well, some ate... The rest of the BBS will be there for the night, which makes it easy for them when they are hungry.


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## madmonahan

Aaawwww! <3


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## BeautifulBetta123

Haha I found it! I am a little late but that is fine lol.

The fry are adorable! I would like a pair of day's eventually too!


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## Maddybelle

Awesomesauce! You should get some interesting marble/grizzle fry from this pair. Poo, why do you have to be so far away?!? I'd love to borrow Janey to mate with my grizzle DT boy. =( I miss having a spawn that size. Can't wait until my fry tank clears out again so I can get another spawn going!


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## Sena Hansler

xD I dunno... There is a whack load lol. All free swimming! I don't mind having the smaller CT spawn, though, however it is good to have a ton of DT babies... Finnage and deformity culling-wise.


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## MattsBettas

This is so exciting! How many would you estimate there are?


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## Sena Hansler

150?


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## MattsBettas

Ooh another big spawn! If you let them grow a bit before culling, you could keep some that are not perfect but not really affected, eg short body, uneven line,etc., and then give them to big Al's or pj pets. They won't even notice, I guarantee it.


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## Sena Hansler

That's true xD Big Al's works with breeders? PJ'S PETS I won't support. Ever. The store in town however I definitely will.


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## MattsBettas

I mean peatland, pj pets doesn't exist anymore. I'm not sure if big Al's works with breeders, but I once saw a pair that were very obviously brother and sister, a good sign because normally stores won't do that. And they can't really deny you if you offer them low, right?


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## Sena Hansler

PJ'S is gone? Hopefully new management and all because the last one I went to I refused to buy anything there...

True, on the low-balling. I mean... I have to make sure they can still make profit (any store), but I can still make back what was used to get the spawn going. So far for money on this spawn: Nothing. Already had everything needed, and left over from other spawns.


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## MattsBettas

Yup, they are under new management now (either peatland or my pet). I like the one on Calgary trail, stock goes through fairly quick and they are clean and fairly nice, actually. And a small profit is always nice, but that's not why we breed!


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## Sena Hansler

Yep  Actually any profit made from breeding, is actually going towards a dear friend's future... 

Long story short, he is someone deserving, trying to go to college as a international student. It's not easy... Sometimes seems impossible. Anything I get do for him is worth it.


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## MattsBettas

That's so nice of you!


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## BeautifulBetta123

That is very kind of you!


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## Sena Hansler

Well, he deserves it. He can't do it on his own... 

So, an update on the little fellas... Eating well, and now just larger eyes with tails :lol: Today I will do a spot cleaning with the turkey baster, hopefully not catching any fry (which I always do )


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## MattsBettas

So there one week old! I'm planning my first spawn in a while on Saturday. I don't know how it will g


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## MattsBettas

Sorry! How it will go because my male is a bit old...


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## Sena Hansler

Well if he is still spunky, that is good  I won't use a tired or lazy old male.


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## MattsBettas

Oh yea spunky is a understatement. He's never been sick, and just swims, and swims, and swims... He hasn't even slowed down to make a bubble nest, unless he sees one of my girls. I am going to delay the spawn until next Saturday, I looked at me female and decided that she could use another week.


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## Sena Hansler

Well then he should be fine 

So I estimate 150-200 fry for sure. Janey is just the Queen of a Thousand Eggs LOL. I've never come across a female who was so fertile o_o


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## BeautifulBetta123

It's good to have a female like her  especially when breeding dt I love her colouring too!


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## Sena Hansler

It is! Lol. Her babies are doing just fine too :3 I suspect there will be very little color in this spawn however since both parents have some color, but not much. BUT hopefully they still do find homes since they will be doubletails.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Ooh I love marbles however so if you manage to get a couple of marbles I would love one


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## Sena Hansler

Well guaranteed these little guys will take after both parents :lol:


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yay maybe I will get the marble I always wanted I don't know why but I just have a thing for marbles lol. 

Hope those cultures work out sorry about the bw I shouldn't have left it in the light


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## Sena Hansler

That is fine :lol: They are alive, and well.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Okay good


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## MattsBettas

Where'd you get janey?


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## Sena Hansler

Actually at the store here, where Mickey was found as well. They have started to get more good fish in.


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## MattsBettas

I have been noticing that to, always nice to see. What type of fish is janey?


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## Sena Hansler

She is a doubletail genotype iridescent female ^.^


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## MattsBettas

I can not even tell that she's iridescent! Such a great, insanely fertile fish!


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## Sena Hansler

I know :lol: I will probably use her 1-3 more times. Since all she does for the other tail types is _widen the fins_ I can use her for crowntails, plakats (if I ever actually found a male plakat), etc.


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## Sena Hansler

So, checking on the little ones when feeding them, and I can definitely tell that they have little double tails :3


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## MattsBettas

Yay! I have a black plakat... He's my avatar. Will definatly do a trade once I get his babies! F1 won't be black tho.


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## Sena Hansler

His spawn should be neat though :3

Also if anyone within driving distance is working or wanting to work on DOUBLETAIL spawns, I'm willing to share Janey xD


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## Sena Hansler

Only found a couple dead so far, which is good. Also found that my micro worm culture is inactive... The bananaworms are fine though.


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## MattsBettas

Try to reculture the microworms. Just add some oatmeal on top. If even two worms survived... And I love my blacks color. It's the most intense black I've ever seen on a betta. First, I'm planning on breeding him to my crowntail girl to get a black crowntail/black plakat crowntail. I'm also going to breed him to a female I get from logistics guy to improve finnage.


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## Sena Hansler

I did lol. 

that would be neat!


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## MattsBettas

Oh ps- read this. 


http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Live Food, Microworms.htm


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## Sena Hansler

Odd my fry never seem to have a problem with BBS. I also have live plants, to ensure infusoria and daphnia is there first on its own.


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## MattsBettas

I was more referring to just the culturing info. And I can guarantee you that your fry love plants in their tanks! Do you use tubs (like Rubbermaid storage bins) as grow outs?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Oh no my mw are not doing good either


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## Sena Hansler

Logistisc's is doing fine. I may split that one up, and add more oatmeal to all cultures and see what happens. Add air holes! They still need to breathe.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Mine o have air they are both in jars with paper towel over top *o*


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## Sena Hansler

huh.. I know the containers you sent, are with regular lids... For the microworms that is. His is booming, that it'll have to be divided anyways xD Mine is dead by the looks of it.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yeah but mine are in different containers than your guys I just was looking for some smaller containers with lids so travel would be easier  mine are in large containers. Sorry about your culture I think I mad his first so more live orms were scraped off the old culture onto his then yours was the stuff underneath


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## Sena Hansler

that is okay :lol: I will place them in jars with new oatmeal as well, with paper towel and the rim of the lid to keep it on ^.^


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## BeautifulBetta123

That is what I use I find it works really well I am currently reculturing my mw if it doesn't work you may need to lend me a few of my worms back XD


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## Sena Hansler

Sure xD

So, the fry are doing well. I see one slow poke who still has troubles catching onto the concept of swimming.


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## BeautifulBetta123

I hope he figures it out soon


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## MattsBettas

Poor runt. Hope he figures it out. And logistics guy has microworms?


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## Sena Hansler

At my house. xD His is the only thriving one. Like... You cannot see into the container, kind of thriving.


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## MattsBettas

Just clone his! And when is he going to get his culture? I'm meeting up with him in February to get some halfmoons. If you clone one more...?


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## BeautifulBetta123

I gave to Sena and one to give to Logistics when he dropped off our fish I think I should have kept some of Logistics worms because mine are toast  if Logistics culture is that ginormous I guess he would be fine with it lol. I saw before I left that morning that one of the cultures had worms crawling up it I can't imagine what they must be like now!


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## MattsBettas

I would wash out the existing cultures, add new oats and yeast, and put a few dabs of worms in off of lg's culture. He won't even notice ha. The grow so fast! When is he getting them?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Whenever he drops off the fish I guess which will be the same trip he drops off yours in


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## Sena Hansler

Hmm I'll do that, with making a new culture(s). I'll probably get oatmeal and yeast today, since I swear we had some but I must be crazy. Then I'll grab some of the small jars I don't use, and probably make a few cultures to go.  since they are a large culture it is best to divide it up anyways to increase the culture amount. And chance of survival. I have them all in the room under the stairs... Cool and dark.


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## MattsBettas

Beautiful betta, I'm going to be down where he is and am picking them up then.


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## Sena Hansler

Then swing by my place as well lol.


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## logisticsguy

Take whatever you need Sena! Great to hear my worms are doing so well. :-D 

Since Matt is heading down to pick up fish, it would be great if he could bring them along. Ok with you Matt? Also S is heading to see Sena and bringing fish too. Im sure we can work out the umm logistics. I wont be going to Edmonton until Feb 14-19th so if we as a group can work this out its better for everyone.

Im really looking forward to meeting all of you btw.


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## Sena Hansler

Well, I have five of those Betta cups from Petsmart, perfect sizes for the cultures AND the lids have pin prick holes.  As long as you give me at least a week notice of when you are coming down, I can book those days off.

As for the fry, only a few more dead which is fine. Janey definitely has the fertile eggs!


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## MattsBettas

Jeez February is going to be busy! I am going with my parents, so I don't think we can go that off course. I will be down there the 15, 16, and 17. Now how are we going to work this out... 

So Sena, how's the spawn going?


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## Sena Hansler

Pretty good actually. A tad upset the silly BBS did not hatch fully this morning, so they went hungry for the time I was not home. However, they got fed some MW, so that was fine. Now I am waiting for the BBS shells to settle, and suck up a whole bunch of BBS for them to nom on. 

I will also be doing a thorough clean and check of the tank, entitling me to remove most of the plants and decor to make sure there are no dead fry.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Ooh we should so plan it so we all pick up the fish on the same day  glad the fry are doing good! Can't wait to see how this pawn turns out!


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## Sena Hansler

Hey BB123 good news! My MW culture has a couple crawling on the bottom so I'll actually be trying to re-start that said culture too. 

Also I had to DIP the lid of LG's worms, into the fry tank it was TAMING so much I thought the lid was going to suddenly walk away -.-; Fry are happy. 

As for the culture, it has been split into... NINE different jars and cups. Mine will probably be divided likewise.

In other words, BB123. re-start yours by making the oatmeal/yeast/water again and re-add the old culture. "If just two survive, they will repopulate".

So in total I may have up to 20 cultures. If they all work.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Wow lg's culture must have been huge! I will try restart my culture... I am super worried about Calypso  
20 cultures though! You could supplie all the breeders in Canada lol!


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## Sena Hansler

xD Well, I decided 12 for the MW, and the banana worms if they are going good I can hopefully divide them up into 6 new cultures. Just to make sure they keep going.


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## Sena Hansler

One question I do have... I looked up banana worms, and it always says that banana is actually optional and not critical. What does the banana do for them?


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## MattsBettas

You could supply all of the breeders in Alberta for sure! What's wrong with Calypso? And how are the banana worms, Sena? I'm waiting for lg to post so that I can figure out how I will get some of these worms haha.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Sena- I don't actually know  that is going to be a LOT of worms lol.
Matt- I will pm you so I don't spam up this thread


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## Sena Hansler

xD

Well, I did 3 cultures for the banana worms... Since they weren't looking their best, but were still active. Two containers (the original MW containers, washed and dried) and a larger bin to see if that works out better. Never know


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## BeautifulBetta123

Man my bw are not near close to being ready to split up... I gave you guys to many worms lol.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Does it mess you guys up when someone changes their avi? It does me lol


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## Sena Hansler

Yes :lol: I recognize the picture before the name first... I stopped doing that.

The reason I split them up, is because they can always repopulate. But they were looking a tad dry, and beginning to brown. So one culture went to the larger bin, and the other was split into two to hopefully make it more successful.


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## Sena Hansler

So, I found well over 20 dead but that is not surprising, considering doubletail IS a deformity in all actuality. Most of the dead ones pulled had spine deformities, or just were not strong enough. However a good number still remains, which is great.

As for the MW and BW cultures, the bloodworms are already teaming in ONE container, building up in the second container, and the large container they'll take longer to progress but there is some movement. As for the microworms, they are working on it


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## MattsBettas

Ooh you have blood worms too?


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## Sena Hansler

BW= bananaworms xD didn't mean to confuse. It is just easier to type it that way x.x I bought frozen mysis, though. See if the adults would like a change.


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## MattsBettas

Hahaha. You actually did say bloodworms though! It's too bad 20 died, but hey, at least you don't need to cull them!


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## Sena Hansler

Whoops! Meant bananaworms xD


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## MattsBettas

Oh! I saw you asked if banana is needed, and from what I gathered it is not, they can be cultured in exactly the same way as microworms. Would it be possible to get a starter culture of microworms and bananaworms in mid February? I might have to get them through lg, I still need to sort some stuff out with him...


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## Sena Hansler

They will definitely be ready xD Those bananaworms have been doing great and the micro worms will be teaming by then.


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## Sena Hansler

So, all 12 microworm cultures are wriggling away, and the banana worms in the smaller containers are TEAMING!! The larger container soon they'll be teaming too (more space to cover xD). The fry got a healthy dose of banana worms, because I dipped the lid in x.x that's how much there were.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Wow my cultures are not doing near as good!


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## Sena Hansler

Try placing them in plastic, rather than glass. Make the banana worms without banana, and have it paste like but not watery... And keep them in a warmer place rather than cooler. I was always told cooler was better, but looking it up they like warmer weather. And don't forget the yeast ;p I am using instant-oats.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Okay warm dark place no banana and try plastic I had my mw in a dark non see through container with a lid and they thrived


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## MattsBettas

Re railing this thread! How's the spawn doing?


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## Sena Hansler

I also fed the other spawn with BW since they swarmed the lid 10 minutes later after cleaning it -.-;

The spawn is doing pretty good. A lot slower growing than the CTs, oddly, with the same amount of food per fry.


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## MattsBettas

Could that be the hormonal load of 130 fish to that of 14? That's my theory, at least.


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## Sena Hansler

Maybe? xD They are going to have a water change every day anyways lol.


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## MattsBettas

That's ok, there still healthy! My stupid male ate a WHOLE mealworm I accede tidally dropped in his tank!


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## Sena Hansler

When I feed older fry (2-3 months) bloodworms or meat of mealworm the smallest tend to hog the biggest bites :lol:

So, I think, I need more containers, for those banana worms. They're nuts!! Both are so filled with wormies I can barely see in.


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## Sena Hansler

This is what they have been eating xD Along with brine shrimp.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Holy cow! That is a lot of bw  I am going to check on mine right now I think I know what I am going to find... Almost nothing


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## Sena Hansler

Have you moved them at all? I did, and gave them a paste-like substance, and have been making sure no one is dried out. Maybe you'll get some back


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## BeautifulBetta123

That might be possible sounds like you have one or two cultures to spare XD


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## Sena Hansler

yup xD


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## MattsBettas

That is a ton of worms!


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## Sena Hansler

The entire lid is covered in worms again x.x another round!! :lol:


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## BeautifulBetta123

My cultures are dead


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## Sena Hansler

Are you sure?  have you tried to re-culture them?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yep


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## Sena Hansler

Good grief there are so many babies... X.x cleaned their tank and added more water in then what they had. If I have another tank left over and another heater I'll be separating them up, half and half, into two tanks.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Well you couldn't expect less from good ol Janey  lol


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## Sena Hansler

These fellas are going to have to live off of microworms and banana worms xD all containers are teeming...


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## BeautifulBetta123

Haha good they have lots of food


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## MattsBettas

Yay! You could use a big Rubbermaid tub as a grow out?


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## BeautifulBetta123

I don't need worms my cultures came back alive some how


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## Sena Hansler

See? Lol told ya they couldn't be fully dead  one of the cultures I had started to get moldy so I scooped the good half out, to reculture.

Actually I will be buying tubs to use for growouts as they are cheaper. I'll just need a whack load of adjustable heaters xD

Any runts will be culled, along with really wonky tails. I'd like this spawn to grow bigger, faster, unlike the last spawn of Janey's x.X


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## Sena Hansler

So, eye balling the fry upclose I can definitely tell you:

There are a few that I could see with REALLY bad fins. Where the top half of the caudal is a sliver and the bottom is larger. These will be culled.

There are a good number with the "mitten tail" look. Those who have or have had mittens know that the mitten has the large spot for your fingers and the small one for your thumb... Same concept with these fellas. The top half is the "thumb" of the mitten, the bottom the larger main part. Most if not all of these will be culled.

There are a few almost perfect ones in there. Slightly off, but doable. These will be kept. I may breed a sibling pair to get the line to continue, and enhance it.

Since Janey's a doubletail geno who knows what the background really is?  how good looking her parents were, or weren't.


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## MattsBettas

Interesting...


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## BeautifulBetta123

Well you have a lot to chose from to cull


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## Sena Hansler

Yes I will lol. Most will be culled for sure.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Well I will have a tank open for a nice dt male


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## Sena Hansler

That's good lol.


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## Sena Hansler

pictures <3 you cannot see their fins just yet in the pictures. However you will soon ^.^

they are getting more and more active every day. I have filled the 10 halfway now and will get it to the fullest level by next week if I can. that way there is less of a chance of growth horomone causing severe stunting, and I can keep up on the water changes easier.


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## MattsBettas

That is a lot of fry!


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## BeautifulBetta123

They are so cute


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## logisticsguy

Awww they are so cute.


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## Sena Hansler

That is only ONE corner xD the other corner has the same, the middle has the same... X.x thanks to Janey


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## madmonahan

Aawww!!! <3


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## BeautifulBetta123

Lol sorry for spamming your threads Sena but madmonhatten your avi is awesome!


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## BeautifulBetta123

Madmonahan sorry lol


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## madmonahan

Haha thank you!! XD


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## Sena Hansler

In just a couple of days, their fins have become more noticeable <3 I have them on microworms, banana worms and brine shrimp. 

There's a lot of decent finnage in there surprisingly.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Ooo that's good


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## MattsBettas

That's always good to hear! Some good dts are needed up here in Alberta!


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## logisticsguy

Yeah I never see them around here...ever.


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## Sena Hansler

Especially females!! Those are not even sparce, they are nonexistent. >< 

What I may do, is find a heavily colored male or female to breed to someone from this spawn (either DT or single finned) to bring some color into this marble spawn


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## Sena Hansler

The computer is out for a week so no pictures for that time. However afterwards you'll get a bunch 

Amyways, I saw a few more who have pretty decent fins. None have visible deformities from what I can see. Which is good.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yay you are making me want one so bad!


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## Sena Hansler

Lol!! Well I'll be continuing this DT line. Throwing in some dragonscale perhaps, one day, and more colors too (maybe patterns as well). Plus I'll be using a fry from the CT spawn to breed to a DT from this spawn, to experiment the CTDT.


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## MattsBettas

I don't think any Albertans have ever seen a dragon or a crown tail double tail, but they would be so awesome! Make sure to get us more pictures when you can again!


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yes that would a new thing!


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## logisticsguy

I like experiments and that is a good one. Question for you Sena. There is a big fry in my spawn Finnigan thats about 10 wks old. He makes nests and flares like a lunatic. Would he be too young to breed now? None of his sisters are close to ready but the older ladies like him and ready to go.


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## Sena Hansler

I'd be interested in getting dragon DTs going ;p

2.5 months is the usual prime breeding age  but it varies amongst fry. Some take longer to mature while others mature fast.


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## logisticsguy

Cool. He is going in the tub tonight.  Last chance for romance for one of the old gals a swell. Too bad called old at 10 months tho. Do you want to give an older HM girl or 2 a try?


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## Sena Hansler

Haha I've bred girls up to 2.5 years old :lol: if they have the pep, it's worth it. I'd give them a try  (plus I want to breed my dumbo before he is old and lazy... And my butterfly HM, and the deltas.... :lol


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## MattsBettas

All Albertans posting:-D! And yes, you MUST breed your yellow butterfly halfmoon! I demand it haha.


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## Sena Hansler

Haha!! Well, he is a tail biter... That I can tell... If I had a female plakat that was lighter in color (either orange, yellow, red, koi, marble, cellophone) I'd get some HMPK going. But for now, HMxHM and HMPKEExHM 

Besides, I'd like to bring some variety to all you albertans  DT especially xD


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## MattsBettas

If my stubborn as heck fish would finally make babies I would get some blue/orange pla kat ct in f2. If this doesn't work, I will breed my male to a hm female I get from lg which will be light in color, get hmpks in f2 which you could get. I will probably end up doing this anyways.


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## Sena Hansler

Found a couple weeny fry dead, during the super clean lol. Tank is almost full, which I bet they will definitely like. They are getting more and more active and more brave of the camera every day :lol:


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## BeautifulBetta123

Good to hear they are doing good


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## Sena Hansler

Found another dead. A larger one this time. No visible external problems, but internal... This one looked like the poor fella had a brain aneurism. :/ but I suppose (being a deformity variety) you aught to see the worst.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Aww poor guy


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## Sena Hansler

I feel bad - but, he was going to be culled anyways x.X (really bad finnage)


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## Sena Hansler

A decent number of them have really good fins! I'm happy. I cannot wait until they are bigger so you can actually see their fins in pictures xD


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## logisticsguy

They are going to be gorgeous Sena. Cant wait to see them.


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## BeautifulBetta123

I can't wait to see pics!


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## Crowntails

I really wanna see some pics! These fish some beautiful.


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## Sena Hansler

I'm trying lol. The computer is down


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## BeautifulBetta123

Stupid computers lol happens to the best of us


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## logisticsguy

My old laptop is just about ready to pack it in. So frustrated with it right now.


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## Sena Hansler

Good to know I am not the only one xD

So, because I missed a water change (yesterday) there were about 15 dead :shock: can NOT miss any water changes... I might even up them too.


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## SageMyster

BEAUTIFUL fish, and what a bubble nest!!


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## Sena Hansler

Thanks! :lol: there is a HUGE size difference between the two spawns I did. I'll be setting up the hang on heater in the main tank and need to place the other heater in the tub where I'll place just under half (since it he's 5 gallons only). Been having a hard time finding a layer heater :/ so the 40 is useless to me. Next pay I might go to Edmonton, and pick up a hoodless tank and large heater.

ONE of the little fry has red fins!!!


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## Sena Hansler

Nine more dead. I'm wondering if the smaller amounts of deaths (3-10) is caused from the unstable genetics of doubletail. Which means in the end, I'll have a lot less to cull anyways. Sadly some of the dead were almost perfect caudals...


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## MattsBettas

That's not good.


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## BeautifulBetta123

No but hopefully you will still get lots with good fins!


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## Sena Hansler

Doubletail is definitely harder :lol:


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## Sena Hansler

Here is something I have never come across: one little fry who will be culled. I noticed it's irregular behaviour quickly. Rather than football spirals, common in fish with damaged organs (dropsy), this fella has no physical problems, nothing visible. However, he darts in small circles, which is commonly seen in dogs with tumors or neurological problems who walk in small circles. This is exactly what this fishy is doing :shock: and I have never seen it in fish. However, connect that with the red in some of the dead fry's heads (not ON the skin but rather under, with the brain) could it be possible they all had problems like that?


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## logisticsguy

I read somewhere that double tails were hard because the shortness of body can create internal issues such as swim bladder ect. and that DTs have a much lower survival rate. The darting around in circles and the red in head is fascinating and likely unrelated to the short body issues more common in DT. There is likely no way the deaths are related to water changes or quality imo and point to a neurological genetic component being involved. This is very interesting.


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## Sena Hansler

Well, I moved some of the babies to the tub that is exactly 80 degrees like the other tank. Some of the "red heads" died from being moved which I'm not surprised. I counted some, and estimate 100 out of the previous estimation of 250 that hatched. HUGE difference. And I know the genetics are good as Mickey was never ever sick, and Janey had a large and healthy spawn previously. That shows how difficult these fellas really are to breed. I may, instead of breeding two DT siblings, breed out to a single tail with a longer body. See how that works.


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## Sena Hansler

I'm afraid to ask if there is something happening I can't see. Or, if this tail type is so difficult that you constantly lose fry! Found 7 more dead today. I've been doing water changes, adding tap water conditioner, IAL, each has a bubbler on low to keep the surface clear, after feedings I clean up... I reckon I have maybe 70.


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## BeautifulBetta123

I don't know but I hope everything is alright


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## Sena Hansler

Yesterday I was pulling out a dead fry or two at a time... Today six more were dead. I moved the remaining fry into the tub. I have noticed some have bloody spines... Definitely a DT factor. Hopefully some will make it. There's no more than maybe 40.

I don't think I'll breed doubletails as often lol hoooooly. It's painful.


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## Sena Hansler

Wow... Doubletail rates a 10 on a scale of 1-10 for level of easy/hard to breed... Now I've done MORE than I did for the previous spawn of Janey's, which some of you know resulted in over 200 surviving fry. This time around... No more than 15. 

I changed tactics. Okay, so I know they are extremely hard to breed... Probably extremely fragile too and can't take as much as any other tail type. Two days ago I placed five fry in a breeder's box in the cycled and heated 30 gallon sorority tank... While fry continued to die in the tub and tank, only one passed away in the cycled tank (but he had a red head so I expected it). So, on a whim and a hunch I've moved all the remaining fry to the cycled tank... Though the ammonia levels have been kept down in their spawn tank by numerous water changes.... I never thought about the fact that they are "deformed" rather than a "tail type" and therefore subject to the slightest changes....

Here's to the remaining fry. I don't think I'll breed DT again... If I do it is to a single tail to see the survival rate of THAT :/ otherwise, no more doubletails! They're just too complicated :lol:


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## MattsBettas

So sorry to read this. Hope at least a few come out alright. If you have any double tail females I would love one for my (near future) sorority.


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## bryzy

Just wanted to post before I read ye entire thing so I would be subscribed!


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## bryzy

Okay. I'm done. I noticed this wasn't as picture heavy as some of your others!? I also in the pics was able to see the double tails!


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## Sena Hansler

My computer is down, and we'll be borrowing one in a week or less. That's why there is less for pictures xD

As for the chance of survival, one of the small ones died. The others are eating and swimming which is good. One looks like it has three tails - very uneven and barely noticeable. It may be just a split in the top half. None are gret finnage, the biggest fella has the best finnage so far from what I can see.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Aww we'll I hope for the best!


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## MattsBettas

How many are left?


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## Sena Hansler

14 or so. :/ doubletails are so darn challenging...


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## logisticsguy

Sena Hansler said:


> 14 or so. :/ doubletails are so darn challenging...


From some reading on the DTxDT it seems to be the the hardest spawn of all to get fry to adulthood. Almost impossible apparently and wishing you luck as it is a monster challenge.


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## MattsBettas

So their over a month old at least! Could you send more pics to bb123 to post?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Well I hope you get a few half decent ones!


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## Sena Hansler

Tomorrow I will send BB123 some more pics if she doesn't mind lol. Here's to hoping all are alive tomorrow morning!


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## MattsBettas

I'm crossing my fingers! I'm planning my sorority... Oh man is it ever going to be awesome. I am starting to get my parents on board too as it will be at the end of one of our hallways. That might mean less cost for me! I will obviously be the one who stocks it and cares for it, and I will probably pay for most of it but you know... Anyways, it will be a NPT with high quality females (hm, PK, dt ct, ee, and a couple nice vt) and since no stores sells dt females because there "ugly" and everyone wants males (and any dt is rare.), I want a dt female from you if these guys make it!


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## logisticsguy

I would love to get one too. Maybe you have a triple tail in there.


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## Sena Hansler

ALL OF THEM ARE ALIVE!!!

That settles it. If ANY of you breed DT, be ready to move them by 3-4 weeks carefully to a fully cycled tank. Float them in breeders boxes or whatever (anything that lets the flow through) or handmake a long holding box if you have a sorority or something. I may give it a try again, maybe. But only if I find another male (or female) soon.


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## MattsBettas

Yay! I'm so glad to hear that. It's just too bad you had a "Janey spawn" turn into a "peaches spawn". I bet the trick is to just keep the parameters stable for these sensitive little ones. We want photos as soon as you can!


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## Sena Hansler

Well I know I kept the ammonia down, even when splitting the spawn up into two groups it didn't help :lol: Peaches' spawn is also doing great though lol. Little greedy beggars... I'm happy Janey's fry are eating and active. They weren't as outgoing before.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Good that you got everything figured out! Good luck


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## MattsBettas

Any updates? I bet it wasn't the ammonia, it was probably the constantly changing water peramiters.


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## Sena Hansler

All are alive. Some are a bit scared of the adults, but for the most part they are fine. I agree with you - they are a LOT more sensitive.


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## MattsBettas

Can't wait for pics!


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## Sena Hansler

BB123 ok if I send you pics to post? (Not having a computer is painful lol)

All are alive!


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## MattsBettas

Love hearing that its been over 24 hours without any deaths!*knocks on wood*


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## Syriiven

Sena....I'm sorry to bother you again, but I was just wondering what Janey's type was aside from DTg. I ask because Toothless' caudal is now nearly as ling as he is and has more of a VT shape. Just wondering if its cuz of his mum or something I should worry about.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yeah sure send me the pics!


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## Sena Hansler

Well if you think about it genotype of doubletails are from a single tail and double tail breeding. No idea what her background is, but, her fins are actually flush together - a PERFECT DTg IMO. I thought she was a VT before because of the swoop of the anal so it's possible. However Ares also has droopy fins since he is an HM


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## MattsBettas

She is probably a DTgVT. DT is always on top of a tail type, it's not genetically its own tail type.


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## Syriiven

I'll have to wait and see what happens - at first I just thought maybe his caudal is growing before his body. Though now he's taken a few nibbles out of it -rolls eyes- Prlly learned that from Vol'jin next door. So glad to see Nyx hasn't started doing that yet >.< 

But yea >> It's definitely longer, but does seem to have that more rectangular look than a fan like a delta  

D= Sorry to bog up this thread with the wrong spawn >.< Just realised this is Mickey and Janey, not Ares and Janey


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## MattsBettas

Hey ares and janeys spawn is about four months now! You should breed a brother and sister to get some dragons. How are the dts doing?


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## Sena Hansler

I probably should. I've got a good looking boy still, and two dragonscale carrier (green specks) females. End up with VT dragonscales xD

All DTs are alive still! More active, and I like the fact debris falls through so I clean the tank when I usually do, and it's fine


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## BeautifulBetta123

Bertha is ready to breed incase you wanted to use her I mean she has the green dragon scale colouring and all, and she is very eggy! Might split open lol.


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## MattsBettas

When can you get pics? So happy, sounds like the remaining 14 are healthy. Hoping to get a dt female from you!


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## Sena Hansler

One fry has a bent spine. If it doesn't straighten out (sometimes does) it'll be fed to the Jack Dempsies I'm looking after for a friend (who okay'd this).


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## MattsBettas

How bad? I'm sure a pet store would take it. They will never even notice. Really looking forward to pics!


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## royal

Any pics yet?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Just I've me a sec...


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## BeautifulBetta123

Here are the pics sorry but I need to post them one at a time


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## BeautifulBetta123

Second


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## BeautifulBetta123

Third


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## BeautifulBetta123

And last but not least


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## logisticsguy

Oh they are so cute!


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## MattsBettas

Oh my gosh. Those thins are just adorable!


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## Sena Hansler

No, the one who has the bent spine WILL be culled unless it straightens out. I'm going to have to be more strict with what is kept and what is culled.

Thanks for uploading them ;p

They've shown mainly red fins.


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## royal

So, I'm new to bettas keeping, I want to start spawning, but I was wondering.. 
What exactly is culling?! Please reply, thanks!


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## BeautifulBetta123

It is basically killing. Culling is just a nicer word. Culling can be done in different ways and is necessary to promote good fins and healthy fish.


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## royal

Can you give me some different options on how to do it, and when to start (what fry age) ? Thanks


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## BeautifulBetta123

There are several different threads under breeding but I am not going to spam Senas thread XD


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## MattsBettas

Royal, this is not the place. And I will only cull fish that have a life altering deformity, I'm a bit soft when it comes to that. Why not just give it a second chance at the Lfs Sena?


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## Sena Hansler

A bent spine IS a deformity. To keep DT a strong line you absolutely positively MUST ensure only the BEST fry survive. Now, if there are mitten tails they will be given to people on here as only pets, but deformities no. Some person will probably say "hey! A doubletail! I should breed him." Not only disappoints the owner when all the fry die, but when the betta dies, and would not benefit the DT line at all. It would make it worse. This fry has a short body, hence the bent spine. Whose to say he/she won't suddenly die?

I was soft with Janey's last spawn. I should have culled way over half. And only the strongest really did survive. And I've learned not to be soft. I can't keep every deformed fry.... Live threatening or not. DT by itself is a deformity, and letting a deformed fry go is just asking for trouble.


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## BeautifulBetta123

I agree with Sena, leaving deformed fry is just asking for trouble.


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## Sena Hansler

Especially on a weaker tail type.


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## Sena Hansler

Also take note that the way his/her spine is, it's actually pressing against an organ. Since I can see that (being pretty pale and still growing) I have all theirs reason to cull. There could be so many difficulties with him - swim bladder disorder, ruptured organ(s), unable to breathe properly, etc.


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## BeautifulBetta123

That is sad...


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## Sena Hansler

Got the large order of IAL today (I shall place some in the sorority tank!!) and I got a "gift"... A seed!! With instructions on how to plant it and all. ;D I'll plant it when I can in a large pot... Then, whoever wants the tiny tree can use it as an ornamental tree or whatnot since I can't take it with me.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Who did you get it from?


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## logisticsguy

My bet is Amy Lim. She rocks and has terrific IAL for very good prices. Plus you get to try and grow a IAL tree.


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## BeautifulBetta123

I was just wondering because I have a person sending me leaves and seeds also


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## BeautifulBetta123

Hey I thought you might want to see this 
Can you guess who this pretty girl is?


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## BeautifulBetta123

If you can remember, the eyes will give it away


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## logisticsguy

I didn't give you a fish that looks like that did I? Peanut was turning purple but not like that.


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## MattsBettas

I'll take the tree! I'll take the tree!!! A cool houseplant and infinite IAL! And I didn't know how severe the spine was, since its that major I would cull him if your sure it will not straighten out. Since I'll be breeding her can I get a well formed female from this spawn?


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## BeautifulBetta123

Okay sorry for spamming this thread but this is non other than the little runt I got from Sena for free, this is Teeney 
Didn't she turn out just great? 
Logisticsguy I haven't got Peanut yet 
Teeney although small is becoming the boss of the tank


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## logisticsguy

Teeny is gorgeous!


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## royal

Agreed!


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## Syriiven

Aww~ Teeny's beautiful!


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## BeautifulBetta123

Thanks all! He has come a long way! No longer fits in her siblings mouth lol.


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## MattsBettas

What will you do with these little beauties? If we can figure out a way, I would take and raise them for you.


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## Sena Hansler

I'll cull the deformed one myself. Not sure if they'll survive the move since we found they are very hard to keep alive. They need a cycled tank.

And WOW teeney is a female! Lol. And such shocking blue eyes.


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## blu the betta

beautiful betta that is a gorgeous betta fish!


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## BeautifulBetta123

Thanks  
She turned out soooo pretty


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## MattsBettas

It's worth a try, the best shot they have. My brothers cycled, well established tank should be fine, right? I would drip acclimate them.


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## Sena Hansler

You could also use breeder boxes/nets, which is what they are in xD


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## MattsBettas

Just to update everybody-

I have adopted the fry. There are now eleven of them, all of which are showing color. (Red fins, blue irid bodies). They are all eating well.


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## Sena Hansler

Glad they survived.


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## DragonFyre14

Glad that some of the fry survived. I hope they stay healthy. I'm really excited to see what they look like as adults


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## Dwarden3

This is going to sound noobish , but what is IAL and what is the g in DTg?


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## BeautifulBetta123

IAL is Indian Almond Leaf it is put in the water for the male to build a nest under and or release tannin in the water which relaxes the fish and keeps the water nice.


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## Dwarden3

BeautifulBetta123 said:


> IAL is Indian Almond Leaf it is put in the water for the male to build a nest under and or release tannin in the water which relaxes the fish and keeps the water nice.


So DTg is Doubletail geno, so does that mean that the fish is a carrier for DT, but does not express the trait?


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## MattsBettas

Yup^ They express part of the trait such as larger dorsal.


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## Dwarden3

MattsBettas said:


> Yup^ They express part of the trait such as larger dorsal.


So is the larger dorsal the only way to tell if a fish is a dtg?


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## MattsBettas

Unless you know the lineage, yes. It's not a definite way to tell either, just a clue. A lot of breeders use dt in their lines to extend the dorsal fin and make the fish more symmetrical.


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## dramaqueen

Matt, are you an IBC member? Just curious.


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