# Lymphocytosis?



## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

Started about a month ago. It appeared one day out of nowhere. It has about doubled in size over the last few weeks. It doesn't seem to be bothering Napoleon. Now it looks like a couple scales have fallen off, possibly due to the stretching? Or rubbing off on things maybe.

I thought it was an injury at first, now I'm thinking lymphocytosis. What do you guys think?

Napoleon was in an 8 gallon tank (until tonight- now he's in a 5.5) with a handful of MTS's, 80 degrees, sponge filter. Weekly 25% water change. Feed him NLS pellets, sometimes blood worms or shrimp. His behavior hasn't changed. I think Napoleon is around 2 years old.

He started biting his beautiful tail a while back when I put him in a new tank and he won't let it fully grow back. Grrrrrr.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

yup looks like it. T^T poor guy. he looks just like my boy with Lymphocytosis.


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

Another question- does anyone know how long a fish can live with a lump like this?

I know they say it's non fatal, but......


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

With how large it is on him and if it keeps growing, it might affect his swimming like my boy Tuna. So I am afraid he might not live too long. BUT if the lump stops growing and it could even fall off, he could live a long time. =) so you really can never know how long a betta with Lymphocytosis will live. 

I really hope it stops growing for your little boy. <3


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

well my boy passed away today when I got home from work. =( I really hope your boy fights this issue. <3


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

I just saw that. So sorry.  And thank you.

Napoleon seems to be doing ok. It hasn't gotten any bigger...but he seems to be having some issue swimming- turns are hard, things like that. A few scales have fallen off the lump. I put antibiotics in his water a couple of days ago, just to be sure he doesn't get a secondary infection because of the missing scales.

He doesn't seem lethargic or anything. Eating, swimming, flaring. 

How long did your Tuna have his lump for?

Napoleon's going on 5 weeks now.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

<3 

yesterday I tried to feed Tuna but he didn't even look at the food. that was when I knew it was time. But I thought he would still be struggling when I got home. 

I had him for 11 months or so. I got him on Oct 2013.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's actually not Lymphocystis which is a virus, this is a regular cyst which can grow at any rate from practically overnight or take a few years to come to fruition.


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

How can you tell the difference?


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> It's actually not Lymphocystis which is a virus, this is a regular cyst which can grow at any rate from practically overnight or take a few years to come to fruition.




this looked a lot like Tunas lump before it grew and started to looked more white. Do you think Tuna just had a Cyst too?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Lympho is much different, it starts off with Ich like cysts generally on the fins but sometimes appearing on the body as well. They often appear in a linear fashion, lined on the pectorals or elsewhere. They will be small like Ich and are either white or pinkish in color. These cysts will move occasionally which obviously makes it different to Ich since Ich generally takes time to be knocked off, more than a day whereas the cysts of Lympho can move every day. Unlike a bacterial infection that may only effect the fins at one time, a virus infects the entire body so just because you may see a small line of cysts does not mean just that area is infected.

Over time the fish will fight off the virus or succumb to it further where the cysts will collect in a certain area, often under the gill plate or on the body of the fish and make what looks like a cauliflower head on the _surface_ of the fish.

The biggest difference is that a regular cyst generally comes up from below the surface of the scales where Lympho generally does not. I have to say generally because there are some exceptions to the rule as usual.

A normal cyst infects only one area and is not a virus but generally is an inherited condition. They will usually grow up from under the scales if it is on the body of the fish, sometimes they will get a metallic color or white or just be the color of the scales. As I said, it can take a week to grow and be noticeable or it can take months to a year. Cysts are hard unlike most tumors which generally a liquid filled.

Does that all help?


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

Yes. Immensely, thanks. 
Since you said it was a cyst, I've been looking at pictures of other bettas with cysts and they seem to go the way of poor Tuna. Is that correct?


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

Aaaaah that makes so much more since. XD thanks Lil. 

I think Tuna had either a cyst or a tumor. When I took him out of the tank I investigated the lump on Tuna and it was all slimy, not hard. do you think that was due to the fungus around it after he died or maybe it was a Tumor? 

Poor Lil is getting all these questions from both of us. XD


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Lol, I don't mind! I just happened to be asleep before I saw these anyway XD

Not sure what you mean by that fidget, are you asking if Tuna had a cyst/tumor?

@Tree, if it was not hardened then it was most likely a tumor. Some tumors are harder if they are fatty tumors but the majority of them are liquid filled. Fish are slimy so I'm not sure if you mean the fish was slimy or the bump was liquidy?

Often a secondary infection can come with any three of these; Lympho, Cysts, or Tumors. They can compromise the fishes immune system and allow for opportunistic bacteria to attack like Columnaris which is generally the first candidate for a secondary infection if it didn't attack first.

Also, Lympho can be 'cured' more or less, just like our viruses we can vaccinate against them. However for fish, they are much too small to be even considered for vaccination but just like us humans, they can fight it off themselves given proper conditions and a high quality diet. It usually takes around 3-5 months for them to fight it off properly, just because you can't see any cysts doesn't mean the fish is all better either. There's no real way to say that they are better but the virus is highly contagious so if your fish did have it, best to keep equipment separate or sterilize in between uses.

Cysts and Tumors, there are no cures for. Tumors can be drained if large enough and are liquid filled, however this is risky and very stressful to both fish keeper and the fish so it is generally not recommended to do unless you are a vet or you take your fish to a vet. Cysts can be cut off if on a fin or not near any very important organs and with a very sharp scalpel and a very sterilized area. Again, since our fish are small, it is not recommended for the average fish keeper. However if a cyst does fall off or you chose to cut it off, you will need to sterilize the fish with some AQ salt and keep him or her in QT until the wound is healing.


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> @Tree, if it was not hardened then it was most likely a tumor. Some tumors are harder if they are fatty tumors but the majority of them are liquid filled. Fish are slimy so I'm not sure if you mean the fish was slimy or the bump was liquidy?




Oops, yeah it was liquidy.


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

Thanks for all the info! Just wondering if there was a chance Napoleon would make it through this. I guess there's always a chance!  
I've spent the last couple of days comparing photos and looking up info. You really cleared it up for me. 
Good to know he's not contagious.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No problem! Eventually he may succumb from the wound if it falls off. Or it will press against his swim bladder and cause swim bladder issues that even Espom Salt wouldn't help whereas a tumor at least the salt would help to relieve a little bit of pressure. Anyway, there is no telling how long he has, he may live his full life or might get a secondary infection, there's really no way of saying though.


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## bluefishy75 (Mar 10, 2013)

Very interesting. My boy, who looks to be about the same color, has a very similar lump but up near his gill. It started in early June, I noticed it when we returned from a vacation. It has definitely gotten bigger, and does seem to be affecting his swimming, but he still has a good appetite and seems ok otherwise. I just don't know how long he can live with it getting bigger given that its right by a gill. Hope your boy continues to do ok!


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

Aww. Sorry to hear that! 
Napoleon seems to be swimming awkwardly...but other than that, he's still acting normal. 
I think all we can do is wait and hope and watch out for secondary infections.


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## bluefishy75 (Mar 10, 2013)

Yeah, that seems to be all we can do. Good food, clean water, and what will be, will be.


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