# Too dangerous



## BettaLover1999 (Jun 30, 2014)

If I upgraded to a 20 gallon tank could I put 1 male betta and 5 or so females in there?


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

U want 2 do that. After saying that my advice is bad?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rosebud975 (Mar 26, 2014)

Hmmm... I wouldn't risk putting so many females with one male. I normally wouldn't recommend putting males and females together, they can all pick on each over and although some owners who do this are lucky it's definitely something I wouldn't risk! You could end up with a dead betta :-( even if the tank was heavily planted I wouldn't recommend it. It could prove fatal and the bettas could sustain serious injuries.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

If you get the mellow of the mellowest and put them in all at once than it will usually work. But you have to be pretty experienced and know how to read fish behavior. Also to find mellow fish. You will also need a place to put a bully fish, just in cause you get one. The tank also has to be VERY planted with A LOT of hiding and territory spots. This is something for more advanced hobbyist to try. I dont think you should do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony2632 (Aug 30, 2013)

I wouldn't do it at all.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Ya most people wont. But if you think about it, it is almost exactly like a betta sorority. The females dont really like each other and there are threats of them killing each other. But people still do it and most of the time it works. Its just with a male in the tank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Best case scenario, you have a bunch of females fearfully avoiding the male or vice verse, most likely with frequent spawning resulting in hundreds of young bettas. What are you going to do with them? There's always a strong chance that the females will gang up on the male or the male will pick off females. I don't understand why you would even want to do it. If you want a group of bettas, then get all females.

I'm even beginning to see sororities falling out of favor here. Eve if you have everything perfect, something can randomly go wrong one day and you can end up with one or multiple dead or injured fish. Bettas come from massive rice paddies where they have plenty of room to themselves. I don't think they were made to live in groups in close quarters. From what I understand, bettas in sororities tolerate each other at best. Not saying all sororities are bad, but an all-female tank is risky enough. Putting a male in there is 100% asking for trouble.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Not really. They treat the male like another female. They swim right next to each other. There been fine for 2 years. I also have some cories so they eat the fry. Its just that not a lot of people like to try stuff they dont think will work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Not really. It's that based on experience most fish keepers have found it doesn't work more than it does. Is it worth it to risk killing or mangling fish so you can say you had success? IMO it isn't.

However, I'm happy that there are those out there who've not had a problem and hope the experience continues to be positive.


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## KFoster (Mar 26, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Not really. It's that based on experience most fish keepers have found it doesn't work more than it does. Is it worth it to risk killing or mangling fish so you can say you had success? IMO it isn't.
> 
> However, I'm happy that there are those out there who've not had a problem and hope the experience continues to be positive.


+1 for being well said. It won't be worth the lives potentially lost.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

tankman12 said:


> Ya most people wont. But if you think about it, it is almost exactly like a betta sorority. The females dont really like each other and there are threats of them killing each other. But people still do it and most of the time it works. Its just with a male in the tank.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Most of the time it works? I guess that depends entirely on what ones definition of "working" is. Most of the time fish die in a "sorority", and they generally don't live to their life expectancy. The problem is that people don't share their failures like they do their "successes". Even many of those with successful tanks have experienced failures. 

I'm always amazed at the inequality between male and female bettas. People are soooo concerned about stressing out their male bettas, and yet they'll throw female bettas into such a high stress environment with the threat of disease and death always looming overhead. Working? Tanks like that "work" till they don't.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

No lives would be lost. That is why you should have a place to put the betta or bettas that are having problems. Its the same as a sorority. Well most of the time it works. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

tankman12 said:


> Not really. They treat the male like another female. They swim right next to each other. There been fine for 2 years. I also have some cories so they eat the fry. Its just that not a lot of people like to try stuff they dont think will work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What type of cories do you have that eat fry? :shock:

Most people are just are just responsible enough not to put their animals into situations where they are likely to be mutilated and killed.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Look on the web. Do some more research before you just say ideas dont work. Also peppered, by the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

tankman12 said:


> No lives would be lost. That is why you should have a place to put the betta or bettas that are having problems. Its the same as a sorority.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am trying so hard to not come across as argumentative, but how can you say no lives would be lost? One would have to watch the tank 24/7. 

+1 Jaysee. I am so happy that sororities are not enjoying the favor as before. I have several friends who tried them (with plenty of cover, plants, etc.), only to stop because of the stress and death.

NeptunesMom: A friend who raises show Guppies keeps Cories in his tank specifically because they don't eat live fry; just the ones already dead. They are quite popular with Guppy breeders for that reason.


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## NeptunesMom (May 4, 2012)

tankman12 said:


> Look on the web. Do some more research before you just say ideas dont work. Also peppered, by the way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't believe everything you read on the web. There are no gatekeepers to ensure people are actually spreading accurate information. You can create a website and spread whatever misinformation you want. 

I can tell you if you came into my store and told me you were putting a male betta in with a herd of female bettas I would refuse to sell you a fish. 

That's really strange, because while I know cories are omnivorous, I've never heard of them eating healthy swimming fry. In fact, I have never seen my cories even notice my hundreds of platy fry in their tank.

ETA: RussellTheShihTzu - Yeah, that's why I was surprised tankman12 identified cories as the way they keep their fry down. I've never heard of them eating living fry. I mean, I guess if they were super stressed they might.. but it's not normal.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

The trouble is if you are not there and things go wrong, the end result is usually a dead or dying fish. 

I kept a male in a sorority. He was very young when I initially purchased him and very mellow. There were a couple of females he took exception to, but they were removed. 

He must have lived in the sorority for around a year, maybe less, maybe more. 

One day, I found him half-dead having had almost all his fins torn off and quite severe damage done to his body/scales. His beard had even been half pulled out, that was how viciously he'd been attacked. 

He did start to recover when I separated him into a hospital tank, but died not very long after. 

When things are going 'well' and for such a long period of time, you often don't expect that they can end so disastrously. 

I guess it depends on how much attachment you have to your fish. Me, I would never do that again. It was horrific seeing the male in that condition, and it's why I never ever advise keeping splendens in mixed sex groups/pairs. 

It's just not worth the risk to me.


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## Sabina88 (Aug 24, 2013)

I personally have a sorority myself and luckily so far its still working though its only been 7 months running. But I personally consider myself lucky and I think it has to do with the fact that they live in a 40 gallon. But like some of the above comments said no mater how well they tolerate each other its not like have a community tank with solely peacefull fish. Theres always a chance that something could go wrong. 
And there is a higher chance of it going wrong then right. 

In my personal opinion though, I would never think of putting a female betta in with a male betta. It's just to risky and is going to be stresfull on the fish. And I do unsterdand in very rare cases a person will have had success in this but that's not a very large group. Especialy since most people wont try it. I also think that if anything, if for some reason a person is dead set on trying this fully knowing the consiquences of what could happen, they should be experienced enough with betta fish and really understand there behavior and how to care for them, and know what to do if something goes wrong. 
But if you really think about it in nature like people have said before, they live in rice paddies in nature. Lots of cover and lots of space to roam around and have a territory. In a tank if theres only so much room that a fish can have and only so much room that they can flee in. Aquariums are a confined space and not stretches of water that go on for miles. And something else to consider is that they are aggressive fish and were more so bred to be aggressive in the aquarium. Though that does not apply to all bettas it does mean that all of them have the potential and things can change in an instant.
Anyways thats all I have to say and my opinion of things.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Tankman, you are grossly underestimating how long it takes for a fish to kill another fish. Like was said, you simply can't watch the tank 24/7. Too, the very act of you watching the tank disrupts their behavior. you just can't always prevent fish from killing each other when thats what they want to do. One other thing for you to think about, is how bettas fight Not all bite - some tail slap, which does internal damage leading to a mysterious death. I'm sure this is how many a betta have met their end in such an arena.
I think you are also grossly underestimating the amount of research these people have done on the matter.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

This is the internet, so you could be saying whatever you want and we have no way of proving you've done it. But let's assume you have females and a male together and that cories eat the fry (which is virtually unheard of). You let your bettas go through the stress of breeding over and over? Breeding is a rough ordeal for bettas.

It's like putting a couple female and one male kingsnake together with a hedgehog and saying, "Hey, they leave each other alone and the hedgehog eats the babies." If by some miracle it works, that doesn't mean it's ideal or okay for the animals and it doesn't mean you should be encouraging other people to try it. 

You tell us to look this idea up on the internet before trashing it, but this place is full of people who are betta experts and have been owning these fish for years, maybe decades. They know a lot more than most of the random people on Google who still think bettas live in puddles. When you Google a betta problem or question, this place is one of the first to come up. If people here are telling you that something is a bad idea, good chance it's a bad idea.


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## Piyoteru (Apr 17, 2014)

I hopped on to google and searched up the whole betta being kept together thing. 

Almost all of the sites and forums advise against it, there are youtube videos of betta mutilating each other in home aquarium set ups, comments saying their fish died or had to be removed later down the line. 

I am not finding any successes, people claim to but then in comments/descriptions/edited posts later say that something went wrong. There was a youtube video with a female and male living in a small tank _appearing to be calm_. Many people in the comments were lead to believe that they can put a male in their sorority or with a female. But in the description of that video, the uploader said that the female died and the male was moved to a 5 gallon. 

Not exactly a success is it?


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Im not saying anything against you guys. You guys are all experienced and have help me with many things, and I thank you all for that. But the only thing I am saying is, you cant say something doesn't work without trying it. Its sort of like saying you don't like a food when you have not tried it. I know there is some risk with it. But there is also risks with pairing cichlids, sororities, and keeping large cichlids (angelfish and discus) with small tetras. It either work 100% or 0%. Its just this is sort of a newish idea and not many people have tried it. But the key trying to find the right fish. So some people just through an aggressive betta that is flaring at everything into on of these tanks and think it is going to work. Obviously not. Also these cories do. I dont know why, but they are not stressed. I think it is because when the betta fry are wigglers and do down to the bottom it is sort of an easy meal. Plus they are a lot smaller than guppy fry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

Please don't. Males and females will either breed or kill eachother. I would explain more but I believe all of these guys explained enough. Just don't try it, you need to be very experienced to even try it but even then it most likely won't work out.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What if you're allergic to said food and don't know it yet? That's pretty darn fatal huh...

The reason we are advocating against this is because people HAVE tried it before. We don't all need to throw a male and female together for the sake of our own 'experiments' if there have been plenty of accounts prior to ours saying that this does not work.

Also cories will NOT eat fry, betta fry stay at the top of the tank and if you successfully bred Bettas, you would know that too. Cories do not even eat fry if they do get down to the bottom somehow, they will eat fallen eggs though.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Some cories do eat fry. They have eaten kribs, rams, and other fry. Also when i bred my white betta pair the fry went down to the bottom and the cories eat them at night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I think you need to do more research bud.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

tankman12 said:


> just this is sort of a newish idea and not many people have tried it.



New idea?? What ever gave you that impression? Bettas have been kept for a reeeeally long time....way before the Internet.... Might be a new idea to YOU.


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

Yup. Nothing new about the fact that Bettas just shouldn't be kept together. That's why they named them "Siamese Fighting Fish" a loooong time ago.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Keeping the a males with multiple females in a tank is sort of new, yes. Bettas themselves aren't, I know that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I remember people experimenting and realizing it wouldn't work 45 years ago. Geez I hate it when you guys make me reveal how old I really am. ;-)


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Keeping male and female bettas together is not new. Guarantee you people were trying it as soon as bettas came into the pet trade.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

We started domesticating Bettas over 150 years ago, certainly not new, kid.


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## Sabina88 (Aug 24, 2013)

Just on the point of the cory catfish eating the betta fry. 
Its not common for a vegetarian to become a meat eater. Its usually caused by the fish not having enough of what it usually eats weather that's because its not supplied or readily available in the tank, or the other fish are outcompeting it for food.
I would suggest giving your cory more vegies in his diet since that's what there intended to eat.

Anyway's no offense to any one but I think were getting off track on answering the question and teaching BettaLover1999 how to properly care for their fish.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Corys are not vegetarians. There is a reason they have barbells, and that is for finding worms and inverts to eat. There are VERY few fish that are "vegetarians".

It's not a question of whether they will eat fry - almost all fish will eat fry. They aren't going to hunt them down though - that's just not their MO.


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## Sabina88 (Aug 24, 2013)

I didnt know that.
Thanks for correcting me


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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

tankman12 said:


> But the only thing I am saying is, you cant say something doesn't work without trying it. Its sort of like saying you don't like a food when you have not tried it. I know there is some risk with it. But there is also risks with pairing cichlids, sororities, and keeping large cichlids (angelfish and discus) with small tetras. It either work 100% or 0%. Its just this is sort of a newish idea and not many people have tried it. But the key trying to find the right fish. So some people just through an aggressive betta that is flaring at everything into on of these tanks and think it is going to work. Obviously not.


Bettas have been around for like a century and a half, and most people want at first to put more than one of these colorful fish in a tank. It's nothing new that someone might try to keep them together, whether mixed gender or not. People have thought in the past that they can be kept like guppies, like you're suggesting. Since they look kinda like big guppies, it's not a hard leap to make. But it isn't effective.

It's not new, it's been tried, and it doesn't work. The reason the rest of us haven't tried it is because we know that other people have, and have failed, and most people value animals' lives above their desire for a pretty tank--especially those who want to keep their pets alive.

I don't know why you're being so persistent, or why you think you can judge a fish's character completely before it's too late. What, are you going to interview them? "Hi, I'd like to know how murderous you are on a scale of 1 to 10." If you must do this, why can't you just leave the male out? Is there someone holding a gun to your head if you can't make this particular arrangement work? Is there an award being given out for "Bad Ideas That Have Worked So Far?" Did you make a bet? I don't get it.

"Some" risk isn't cutting it. I doubt there's even a 1% chance of this working. Cichlids together will work "most of the time." Angelfish and tetras might work "some of the time." This thing you're planning works "none of the time, and if it does, even for a while, go buy a lottery ticket because you're obviously the luckiest person alive."

The only way I can see ANY variant of this being successful is if you had a densely planted 200+ gallon tank, with ONE male and ONE female, and your cories. That _might_ be close enough to their natural habitat that they wouldn't kill each other. Maybe. And you still might end up with a spawn.

Now, if you flooded your entire basement for this project as you're planning it? Come back and talk. Also, if that's the case, I want pictures.

Consider this, though: You have two pages of knowledgeable people posting and telling you this won't work. Of course you could try it anyway, and you don't need our permission to do that, but when you're pulling out dead fish from your tank, the fish will be the only ones we feel sorry for.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I honestly don't know why people who want to keep males/females together don't just get into wild bettas. Most species of wilds can at least be kept in male/female breeding pairs, and some of the more peaceful species can certainly live together in mixed gender groups. 

I had a pair of Betta stiktos - a close relative of Betta splendens. My pair shared a five gallon tank together and would spawn very regularly and there was very minimal aggression between them. 

There can be exceptions to the rule, but the odds are more in your favour when you keep wilds than if you try the same thing with fancy splendens.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

O crap. I forgot to say this. They are wild bettas. I honestly forget the scientific name. But the lfs had around 10 females and a couple males in this 40g (i think), with NO aggression. I still have a regular white betta pair together though, and there is some aggression. I wouldnt really recommend keeping regular bettas together. Sorry for the miss communication.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony2632 (Aug 30, 2013)

Didn't they use bettas for fighting entertainment from like way way back then?


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Yes I believe so. I heard people still do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes betta fighting still goes on, and is still quite popular in many Asian countries. Contrary to popular belief, people that are serious about fighting their bettas are very knowledgable about betta care and breeding and take excellent care of their fish, except for the fighting, after which they are nursed back to health. It's not like the bettas are being forced to do anything they don't want to do. It's no different than a boxer. Of course not everyone fights their fish responsibly, and I am in no way advocating or condoning fighting fish. I'm just sharing information.


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## Thothgirl (Jul 12, 2013)

jaysee said:


> Yes betta fighting still goes on, and is still quite popular in many Asian countries. Contrary to popular belief, people that are serious about fighting their bettas are very knowledgable about betta care and breeding and take excellent care of their fish, except for the fighting, after which they are nursed back to health. It's not like the bettas are being forced to do anything they don't want to do. It's no different than a boxer. Of course not everyone fights their fish responsibly, and I am in no way advocating or condoning fighting fish. I'm just sharing information.


So Boxing not Dog fighting then? thank you! i didn't know that.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

tankman12 said:


> O crap. I forgot to say this. They are wild bettas. I honestly forget the scientific name. But the lfs had around 10 females and a couple males in this 40g (i think), with NO aggression. I still have a regular white betta pair together though, and there is some aggression. I wouldnt really recommend keeping regular bettas together. Sorry for the miss communication.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay yes lol that's totally different. Everyone here thought you were talking about betta splendens. Still a bit risky but people do keep mixed gender wild types. Splendens mixed are a no-go.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah that is totally different and nowhere in past posts have you indicated that these were wild bettas being kept in breeding pairs. 

All my wilds are kept in breeding pairs/mixed species groups. I have still had issues with aggression and lost a couple of fish, but this is totally different from suggesting splendens would be fine together.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Thothgirl said:


> So Boxing not Dog fighting then? thank you! i didn't know that.



Dogs are social creatures and generally don't want to kill each other - they get conditioned for it. In my opinion that's a huge difference.

Those that are serious about it selectively breed their fish in order to make their ideal fighter. There's a lot of work that goes into it and they do not want their fish to die. Fights are ended before any serious injuries are sustained, that way they can fight them again another day. That's why I think they are like boxers.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Yes I really wouldn't recommend keeping fancy bettas together. It never really works. The only reason I got this pair is because they were in a 2.5 tank together at the lfs for more than two months and no aggression, not even one nip. It was just so weird, I just had to get them lol. Now they have been together in a 10 gallon heavily planted, heated, and filtered tank. Still no aggression, its been two years. They have bred a couple times and still no aggression. It is just so different i just have to bring it up. I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING IT! Littlebettafish they were not kept in breeding pairs, i have 5 females with 1 male. I forget the scientific name. I am sorry for not mentioning it. I always forget that part lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Fighting bettas are bred to be hardy and aggressive. The bettas are removed as soon as one retreats, or if there is some life-threatening injury. So the winner is chosen not base on which deals the most damage, but which shows the most bravery. The fish are well taken care of and rarely sustain much damage.

Since bettas are naturally species-aggressive and have scales for armor, I don't find responsible fighting unethical. Dog fighting is something else. Pit bulls were originally bred to be somewhat aggressive as their original purpose was to harass and bait fighting bulls. Before long they were being bred as fighting dogs. They were bred to be dog-aggressive but not human-aggressive, so they could still be handled by their owners. Irresponsible breeding from inhumane dog fighters has polluted the pit bull breed with aggressive, hair-trigger dogs. Not all pit bulls are this way, but generations of reckless backyard breeding has cast a bad light on the breed. My friend rescues piy bulls and loves them dearly, but doesn't trust them alone around other dogs. The dog-aggression goes back so many generations.
/rant


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## Thothgirl (Jul 12, 2013)

Rant away! Pits are my Favorite type of dog! I adore them. My Mom got one as a rescue dog when my sisters were little and that was a best family dog I have ever seen.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Thothgirl said:


> Rant away! Pits are my Favorite type of dog! I adore them. My Mom got one as a rescue dog when my sisters were little and that was a best family dog I have ever seen.



I'm a pit enthusiast.. Have one I adore and is the best family dog I could have asked for . Taught my son to walk and my daughter was more a risk at biting her (no retaliation from the dog) when she was a toddler then the other wAy around ....buuutt they are different dogs .. You do need to be prepared to responsibly train them and even so it's possible and more likely to be dog aggressive then other breeds. I'll fight for them and stand by that they are the best dogs I've had the pleasure to own but they need higher commitment to training then others . 

And to that person who said how femAle bettas are now able to be kept together . No, this is an irresponsible new fad. The risk is far higher of stress and death then proper stocking .. far higher . And male female is just outright wrong . So I hope the OP really does have wilds . 


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

Wow we're all a bit off topic xD..


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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

Yeah, well... everyone's relaxed since we know tankman isn't about to kill off a bunch of betta splendens with a crazy idea. Still risky even with wilds, but that actually has a chance of working.

Sorry 'bout that, tankman, but you probably should have clarified.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Yes I was veering off topic lol.. But I am a pitbull and enthusiast .. Couldn't help myself lol. Sawry. 

Honestly I'd really like to see a lot more betta enthusiasts widening their horizons to the other non betta splendens.. It does open up so many more options when you venture over there . 

Not downing the splendens! I have 3 myself .. I enjoy many species 
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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

It's good-the forum is for fish so sometimes it's fun to talk about other species! 

Yeah-I'm considering getting some of the Bettas you mentioned earlier, maybe sometime in September.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

Yes I know. I always forget to say it. Sorry! I felt so hated for a second there. But ya they aren't regular betta. Plus pits are amazing dogs. I got to pit/ shepherd/ lab/ ect... Well they have pit in them and they are awesome. I feel bad for the breed, cuz of all the stupid idiots that fight them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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