# Male or Female?



## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

This little one even has me stumped!

There's a bit of a beard there, but some ladies have beards?
However, this one was being sold as a boy?

To me, the bod looks very female, the fins are a bit long for a female HMPK, but not NEARLY long enough for a male HMPK.
It may be a traditional PK rather then HMPK, but that anal should be more POINTED to me.

The presence of an ovipositor there as well has me 85% sure that this "guy" is really a gal in disguise.
I bought it BECAUSE I was sure it was a girl, and I'm setting up a sority tank...but now I'm worried.

Any thoughts?


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## Tree (Sep 29, 2013)

He'/she looks 90% male to me. but that egg spot lol!


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@Tree IKR? I think this FISHY may even be confused about it's gender! XD

(If it turns out to be a girl, I'm naming it Mulan).


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

(Sorry for the double post! It won't let me add these to my last post!)

For comparison:

Female HMPK









Male HMPK









Female Traditional PK

















Male Traditional Pk









(THESE ARE NOT MINE THESE ARE FROM A GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH AND ARE PURELY HERE FOR COMPARISON I CLAIM NOTHING)


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## RickyTan (Jan 26, 2017)

young males have been known to have egg spots, my smaragdina male still has an egg spot and its almost 6 months old.


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@RickyTan thank you for commenting! And yeah...some do. That's what complicates things.

Evidence for Male:
Ventrals
Seller had fish marked as male

Evidence of Female:
Beard when flaring is smaller then a male's
Girly body shape
VERY LADY-LIKE ANAL (lol)
Eggspot

Those ventrals have me VERY WORRIED though. (This betta was gonna probably be my favorite in my planned sorority to...I really wish There were more "green: bettas...It's my favorite color, and I'd really like primarily "green" and "purple" in the tank. X'D

(I may post my plan so far in another thread. Pictures of pretty fishies and a hunt for "green" bettas! )


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Looks like a very young male who hasn't finished growing into his fins yet.

I see no evidence of ovaries which is the only true discernible way you can tell male from female without throwing them together to breed.

I would not chance to put that into a sorority because if it does turn out to be male, then you'll end up with dead fishes or at the best case scenario, very torn up fishes after a while. Might not happen right away but once he and the other girls fully mature, then something is liable to flip. It's only their nature. Betta's are not together in the wilds except for breeding. Even females don't hang out together like Cichlid females might.


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@Lilmaugrim YES, THE OVARIES...of course, the ONE thing I have trouble spotting, (especially on dark fishies in photos. Can't very well shine a flashlight on a picture. XD).

Thank you for pointing out this fish's seeming lack there of!

I would by NO MEANS put a fish whose gender I cannot discern into a sorority with females. I would never risk that danger to my fish. (Honestly...that would be only be barely less stupid and devastating then letting my PUFFERFISH in the sorority!)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

angeliza said:


> @Lilnaugrim YES, THE OVARIES...of course, the ONE thing I have trouble spotting, (especially on dark fishies in photos. Can't very well shine a flashlight on a picture. XD).
> 
> Thank you for pointing out this fish's seeming lack there of!
> 
> I would by NO MEANS put a fish whose gender I cannot discern into a sorority with females. I would never risk that danger to my fish. (Honestly...that would be only be barely less stupid and devastating then letting my PUFFERFISH in the sorority!)


Okay! Awesome, just making sure lol. I've seen people do a lot of stupid and silly things over the years >.< What you can do with one fish you might not be able to do with another. Good to know. I do apologize if I seem a little over the top or anything. It's often hard to discern what others know simply by their posts  Glad you've got sense!


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@lilnaugrim
It's no problem! I agree, you're only ever getting half the story online, and it's normally better to assume people DON'T know something then assuming they DO , especially with fishy lives at stake!^^


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@Tree @RickyTan @lilnaugrim
GUYS.
PLEASE tell me you see this too:








There's a male betta in the jar by Baby fish's tank. He's only flared at Babyfish ONCE. Only other fish near that tank.
I'll try to get more pictures, but it's hard because Babyfish is the size of a quarter, (hence the nickname).


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

Example of tiny-ness.

Stripes have faded, and where slight to begin with...I'll try to get more pictures if they come back.








What ever this little one's gender: I need to grow them out, and am head over heels for them.
After breeding stripe incident, however, I am very convinced that I have a girl on my hands...but given the tiny SIZE, it may just be a juvenile male so I could use the help here: Are their males who show breeding stripes at other males?

Bonus babyfish pictures:


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## RickyTan (Jan 26, 2017)

i've never seen breeding stripes on males. I've had fish i thought were females turn out to be males, heres one....


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@RickyTan I haven't heard of it happening either! I want to make sure though...I guess I'll grow this little one out and see if it starts looking more male.
(Right now, however, I'm LOVING Baby's fishes partial dragon scales and wild markings, as well as it's looong, slender body! it ALMOST looks like it could have some wild betta in there!)

YEAH I can see how that fish would be confusing! Short vents and a rounder body shape...but he's still got a wide body like a male, and a masculene anal fin...the tail and vents make him look a bit like a female Halfmoon tho, lol.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

angeliza said:


> Are their males who show breeding stripes at other males?


Absolutely. As I mentioned, young males will do it.


They are actually submission stripes, not solely breeding stripes. Females show them to tell the male that she is submitting to him and allowing him to breed with her. I've had many young males do it to both male and female depending on who is the alpha. It's not just a girl thing. Of course, more often, girls will be the ones to do it but young males can absolutely show these submission stripes.


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@lilnaugrim

...and so the confusion continues!
X'D

I MUST say that this little fish looks more female in person to me, but once more: It'd probably be best to grow Babyfish out in order to settle this gender question once and for all.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Don't apologize, lilnaugrim! 

When posting people should understand that the OP is not the only one reading the answers. There are lots of lurkers with various levels of experience who may have the same question and benefit. It's why such as you and I, who've "seen it all" and been in Bettas and aquatics long time, cover all the bases/possibilities when answering. That way there's no gray area for misinterpretation.

IMO, he's definitely a "he."


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

My young wild betta males show vertical barring on occasion, so it's definitely not limited to females. They use vertical barring to make themselves appear as non-threatening as possible to dominant and larger males. 

The fins and body shape of this fish say male to me. I don't see anything about him that would suggest female and I would be _extremely_ surprised if he turned out to be one.


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@RussellTheShihTzu Everyone seems so sure...I suppose it's so!
@LittleBettaFish
Thank you for your thoughts!

Honestly his body is very slender, which makes me think female...but wild males who are splenden or similar species are also quite slender, and long-bodied. It could be because he's a juvenile that he has such a...PRETTY body to me, but I genuinely hope he keeps it, as I prefer the look of it to the more boxy, short look of most male plakats I've seen.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Personally, I've always associated a 'slender' body with males, as my females have always been rotund. 

I do agree with your preference on a long, slender body. It's probably why I only keep wild bettas.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Personally, I've always associated a 'slender' body with males, as my females have always been rotund.
> 
> I do agree with your preference on a long, slender body. It's probably why I only keep wild bettas.


My males have always been more "slender" than females, too. I find, for lack of a better term, a bullet-shaped body to be more aesthetically pleasing; and, I would think, more functional.


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## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@RussellTheShihTzu @LittleBettaFish

How to explain it...? When I say "Slender, I really mean the HEIGHT of a fishes body in profile. Male bodies tend to be taller, causing their heads to be larger etc, them a female, whose form seems more streamlined and pleasing to me.

Domesticated bettas for years have been bred for finnage and color...but I feel that they have lost a great deal in the shape of their bodies. Perhaps it was since the original domestics were bred to be fighters, so they bred for larger jaws...? I'm not sure...but the grace of a wild betta's longer body is certainly appealing, and I wish to see more of it in the modern domestic betta. I think we can all learn from the original betta form.^^


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