# Scales on nose missing



## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I've noticed a white patch on my betta's nose. It's easy to see because he's a dark blue. He kinda wedges himself near the heater to sleep, so I thought maybe he'd scraped his nose. I keep the water clean and warm, so I figured it would go away. It hasn't. It's gotten worse. 

He'd been normal and eating, but today when I checked on him, he was lying at the bottom of the tank on his side. I thought he was dead but when I moved the decorations, he zoomed up to the top. I tried putting a pellet in the tank to see if he would eat, but he wouldn't. I immediately cupped him (as he's in a divided tank with other boys) and when I did, I got a good look at his nose. I've included a pic. 

Should I continue to keep him cupped and see if removing him from the place he wedges himself will help? Also, should I use salt to treat? I don't want to put him back in the tank if there's any chance he has some sickness that the other boys could catch.

Any help/suggestions are greatly appreciated!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Melodica. What a handsome boy. There are a couple of possibilities here. One is that he burned himself on the heater, creating an infected ulcer. Although bettas usually don't burn themselves on heaters quite as often as other types of fish (especially scaleless ones like loaches), it's definitely not unheard of. Another possibility is that he did indeed scrape his nose and it's become mildly infected. Third possibility is a burst lymphocystis cyst. If you have not noticed any white lumps on his nose before this one burst, then it's probably not lymphocystis though.

I would keep him isolated at least for a few days just to make sure it's not contagious (lymphocystis, for example, is a contagious but usually nonfatal virus that cannot be treated). Adding 1 tsp of AQ salt per gallon will help with healing and preventing further infection. If you have API Stress Coat and/or Kordon Fish Protector, add those as well.

One reason he may not eat is because he can't. It may be painful to eat or he may not be able to see and/or smell his food with his nose all bunked up like that. If his behavior is more or less normal otherwise, then I wouldn't worry too much about him not eating just yet.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks so much for responding. I really appreciate the help!

He wedges himself up near the heater and the filter outflow, which has a soda bottle baffle on it. When I first saw the white on his nose, I thought he'd scraped it on the baffle since he sleeps there. The only thing I noticed before was the white spot in that same place on his nose. One day it was fine, the next it was white. It's been there for a week, maybe two. I kept the water extra clean to try to help it and added more Stress Coat, but, as you can see, it hasn't improved. 

I've been keeping him in the cup floating in the tank for the past couple of days and changing the water daily (with water from the tank - temp constant at 82). I don't have a QT tank that I can heat reliably and the way he was laying on the bottom when I found him worried me, so I figured he would be better off in something small where he could easily get to the top for air. Should I mix salt with a gallon of water (and maybe some of the IAL that I have) and change his water with that instead of the water from the big tank?

There are changes in his behavior. He's very lethargic and doesn't dart like they usually do when I touch their fins. He also doesn't come to the side of the cup and look at me like usual. As I mentioned, he isn't eating either, though you may be right about the pain. I put a pellet in and he grabbed at it quickly, but then spit it right back out.

Nobody else in the tank has any sores or physical issues and they are all eating and acting normally, so that's a relief, but I want to get him better too. After I do, he's going in a different area away from that baffle and heater! I just feel so bad for him. I know that nose has to hurt and he looks so pitiful.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Melodica, sorry I couldn't reply right away - spent the morning at the vet clinic. 

Google lymphocystis and see if any of the images match the lump you saw on his nose before it burst.

If it's easiest for you to mix up the water and IAL (yes, if you have IAL use it ^_^) in a gallon jug, then definitely do that. It's what I usually have to do, as I tend to float my sick bettas in Gladware containers. 

I'm hoping that his lethargic behavior has more to do with his nose being painful or inhibiting sight, not with him being sick. :/ I would still try salt treatment for at a week before seeing if the wound requires an antibiotic; if it does need a medication, I would recommend API Furan-2 or API Triple Sulfa (don't use sulfa meds if you're allergic to sulfa drugs though).


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

Hey Sakura! I understand. I just thank you for helping me!

I looked up lymphocystis and I'm honestly not sure if his nose looked like that or not. I didn't get a good, close look at it before getting him in the cup. I know that it was all of a sudden white one day, so if it was some sort of bump it got big overnight. I don't think the area has gotten larger since I first saw it.
Is there any way of knowing that's what it is? I just don't want to put him back in with my other boys (even if he heals up) if he's got something that's possibly contagious. 

He's still moving around, but he looks very depressed and when he opens his little mouth to gulp air it looks so painful. I'm going to do the salt and IAL treatment and hope that at least helps him feel better.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I got another picture tonight. I just can't tell if the wound looks better or worse. What do you think?

Also, I dropped a pellet in his water and he tried three times to get it in his mouth, then gave up. So he apparently wants to eat. I just can't think of any way to get food in him without him having to open his mouth. I feel so awful. Like I should or could have done something to prevent this.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

Another pic


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Are you feeding him crushed up pellets? Maybe he could eat something small enough that he wouldn't have to open his mouth so wide. Poor little guy.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

*Columnaris?*

I can't feed him at all now. His top "lip" is completely gone! It's like it's rotting off. There's also some greyish wispy stuff coming out of the area. I was reading and the thing that kept coming up with those symptoms is columnaris. Do you think that's what it might be?

Another (pitiful) pic attached.

I just don't know what to do for him.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If the lump is getting worse, then it's most likely no longer lymphocystis; if it was, it's gotten a nasty secondary bacterial infection. Columnaris is a definite possibility. You probably want to start treatment since it's progressing further. I recommend API Furan-2 or API Triple Sulfa but don't use sulfa drugs if you are allergic to them. 

Again, if you've got Stress Coat and/or Kordon Fish Protector, use that as well to protect and soothe the wound as much as possible.

For feeding, you might try target feeding thawed frozen baby brine shrimp with an eyedropper; the tiny size may make it easier for him to eat. However, baby brine shrimp can quickly foul the water and it's easy to overfeed so you may want to try to feed him just before you have to do a water change.

Poor little guy.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't have Furan-2 or Triple Sulfa, but I do have Kanaplex. Would that work?
Also, some of the things I read to treat columnaris said to lower the temp to ~75. Is this correct?

In regards to water changes - since I'm keeping him in one of the cups like they come in, do I need to change the water more than once a day? 

Sorry about all the questions. I just want to try to do something for him. Just looking at him breaks my heart.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Kanaplex will work, yes, although for topical wounds/infections, Furan-2 or Triple Sulfa is more effective. One thing you might do is start with Kanaplex and if that alone does not work, add Furan-2.

Ideally, especially with a wound like that, the cleaner the water the better. But if you only have time to change the water once a day, it will be more than enough. I know it's the holiday season and everything gets crazy about now so don't worry if you can only change it once a day.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I dosed a gallon of water with the Kanaplex and the Jungle Fungus Clear yesterday (along with the crushed IAL that's in it). I've used that for the last two days. I'm going to throw that out and make new for the next couple of days since I'm not sure how long the medication stays effective when it's been put in water.

It's difficult for me to make more than one change a day during the week, but this weekend I can change it more. 

I didn't see the Furan-2 at Petsmart last night, but I did see the Triple Sulfa. Tomorrow on my lunch break, I'll go get that. Can it be used with the Kanaplex or should I use it instead of the Kanaplex?

I saw him open his mouth wide to get air this evening and it looked like the whole inside is white. Thankfully he doesn't seem to be having issues breathing, but what's left of his poor little lips look awful and when I put some frozen daphnia in the cup yesterday (it's the only thing I have other than pellets) he didn't even look at it. Have you seen a fish recover from something like this? And if he does, will his quality of life be okay? I don't care if he has no lips or nose after he recovers as long as he's able to be happy, otherwise healthy and not in pain.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I would think that all that medicine used together wouldn't be good for the fish but I wouldgo ahead and do whatever Sakura advises.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Triple Sulfa can't be used with Kanaplex so stick with what you're using right now.

Poor guy.  I have not seen a fish recover from this severe of a case of mouth rot but bear in mind that those fish had other issues as well, mostly internal. If the infection can be halted for good, then there may be a chance the tissue regrows. At the very least, the open wound will heal over and he won't be in pain. What's most important is that he is able to eat. If he still can't eat even if it's clear the infection has been healed, then the prognosis isn't very good.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

At this point his mouth has rotted more, he's lying at the bottom slightly on his side, breathing heavily and with every exhale I can see the cotton looking stuff. 

It breaks my heart seeing him in such pain. What makes me so angry is that if I had treated with conservative methods when I first saw the white spot, he would probably be okay. I hate that my mistake caused him such pain. 

I thank you so much for all your help and advice. I'll keep you updated but I have a feeling he won't last much longer.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm so sorry! Poor little guy. You've done everything you can for him.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Please don't be so hard on yourself, Melodica. I have a feeling that this is a very aggressive strain of bacteria we're dealing with and it may have progressed to this point no matter what you did. And it's possible the white spot was originally an untreatable lymphocystis cyst; the bacteria that is now eating away at his mouth is probably a secondary infection that was not present at the beginning.

You're doing everything you can do so hang in there!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Too bad they can't tell us what's wrong with them. Some diseases are difficult to diagnose.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I hope you are right, Sakura. The other boys in that tank seem to be completely fine, so I guess I got my poor boy out before he became contagious. I'm looking closely at all the others for white spots or anything unusual. I feel so bad for my little guy. He's breathing very heavily and is completely limp at the bottom of the kritter keeper I have him in. If he's still alive in the morning, I'll be surprised. 

I wish they could tell us what's wrong with them too, dramaqueen. It's so frustrating trying to diagnose so you can treat correctly and avoid stressing them or making them sick yourself. It's so easy to get attached to these little fish and so painful when you lose one.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Yes, it is painful, especially when you've done so much and despite your efforts they die.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

Amazingly he's still alive. I thought he was dead because he didn't move, even when I tipped the quarantine tank a bit. I could see his gills moving though and he moved when I pulled it out of the tank it's floating in.

However... the cotton stuff is MUCH worse. The last picture that I posted is still about how far the rot has gone, but the cotton has taken over. It's bursting out of his mouth. I watched him go to the top once and he was able to breathe somehow, but it looks incredibly painful. He looks completely miserable - he lays on the bottom all limp and he can't eat anything. 

I changed his water - the clean water was dosed with Stress Coat, IAL, Kanaplex and the API Fungus Cure. However, dosage is EXTREMELY difficult, even when using a gallon of water. Why don't they make that stuff in dosages for small QT tanks??

What should I do? Keep up the treatment and hope there's improvement in a few days, or humanely end his suffering? I feel like there's no right answer. I just know that it makes my chest ache every time I look at him or think about his poor little mouth.

Any thoughts, suggestions, anything? I'm getting desperate.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

He's still kicking. He mainly lays at the bottom, but keeps his head propped up. The last day of treatment is today. I'm going to see how he does in just warm, clean water for a couple of days. The cotton stuff looks to be less and I think the rot has stopped. Course now I'm worried that all the medications have messed up his internal organs. Also, it's been almost a week and a half now since he's eaten and his mouth is still too messed up to eat.

I bought clove oil just in case, but he still moves when I remove his container to add clean water. He also moves when a light is shone on him. That makes me think he's still got the will to live. I guess my biggest issue is not knowing when it goes from giving him a fighting chance to allowing him to suffer needlessly.

Regarding the antibiotics - how long do you need to wait after you've gone through the entire dosage period to redose?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's hard to say if the cotton stuff is excess slime coat or saprolegnia fungus that commonly occurs with open wounds. Either way, it's not a good sign. 

You don't need to wait to redose any antibiotics. With Kanaplex, you can redose safely up to at least 7 seven doses.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

The cotton looking stuff actually seems to be a lot less now. I can see sort of inside the wound (it just looks like an off-white color), but it's not all sticking out or anything like it was and it's definitely not spreading. I do know that his face is... different. It's like his eyes are flatter and they don't follow the light around. He still reacts with movement, but it has to be a lot of movement. Course he hasn't eaten in over a week and has been bombarded by antibiotics, so I guess I'd be sluggish too.

If it's saprolegnia - is that treatable or is it just a sign that he's not going to get better? I read a bit and it said the Fungus Clear and Triple Sulfa (among other things that I don't have) could be used, but seemed to stress about catching it early. Should I try that or...?

I'm just not sure what to do. Then I was reading about euthanizing bettas and saw a few horror stories, so now I'm even MORE torn about it. My hair is going to be white before all this is over.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Saprolegnia can be treated, usually with acriflavine or victoria/malachite green but I don't think it's detrimental enough to throw another med at him right now, especially since I'm not 100% sure it's not just excess slime coat.

If you do wish to euthanize, we'll walk you through it but yes, it can be a very stressful thing to do especially when using clove oil. My first and only attempt to euthanize with clove oil went horribly wrong so now I only use Finquel, a fish anaesthetic that can be overdosed. I got mine online from Pet Supplies | Dog & Cat Supplies, Pet Meds | DrsFosterSmith.com Pet Products but I'm not sure if they still carry it. A veterinarian can also safely euthanize your fish for you as well. 

You're doing a fantastic job with him and you've given him every chance to fight this off. The rest is up to him. Both of you hang in there!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

It's nice to know about the Finquel. I never heard of it before.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I'll try to get a picture of him later, Sakura. I'm not sure if that would help you determine what's going on, but I guess it can't hurt.

Regarding the Finquel - is this it? Finquel Aquatic Anesthetic 10gr MS 222 | eBay

I do have one more question - regarding water temp, everything I read on columnaris said to lower it, so I put him in a tank where it's a stable 76. At this point should I move him back to floating in the regular tank (ranges day-night from 82-81)?

I just hope I've given him enough of a chance! Thanks again for all your help.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

Here's the best pic I could get without upsetting him. He lays exactly like that all the time - sometimes his gills barely move, other times he breathes heavily. 

It's hard to see, but his mouth is like the last picture I posted except the whole area is hollowed out and white now. What do you think, Sakura?

Whether or not he's healing, he looks completely miserable.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The wound on the mouth may be healing - the tissue is whiteish and not inflamed red. But I'm too concerned now that the infection has gone internal.  If it was just the wound, he might sulk and hide but he wouldn't lay on his side like that. To me, that type of lethargy indicates an internal problem with organs being affected.

You are correct that columnaris bacteria likes higher temps. 76 is perfectly acceptable.

And yes, that's the Finquel. If you get it and use it, be sure to use baking soda with it as it highly acidifies the water; this rapid pH change will only stress the fish out during its last moments and the baking soda helps to nullify the effect.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Aww, poor little guy!


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I ordered the Finquel - it should be here before Christmas. I hate that he'll have to continue that long, but I'd rather that than a botched attempt with the clove oil. How much of it and the baking soda should I use? I ordered 10 grams. I hope that's enough.

I decided to completely remove the medications from his water yesterday since I finished the dosage period on them. I figured at this point it isn't really looking like he's going to get better, so why put more stress on his internal organs for the last few days?

This morning when I looked at him - he was actually floating near the top like they do a lot. He wasn't clamped or anything, but he was breathing heavily. The mouth is still white (looks like MORE white - like there's more tissue or something). However, I also noticed what looks kinda like an off white sore near his back fin on the right side. I didn't have time before work to get a really good look at it, but I know it wasn't there before. I'll try to get a pic of it this evening. Could that be whatever was wrong with him spreading? 

It's like the poor little guy can't catch a break.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think the best thing you can do until you get the Finquel is to keep him as comfortable as possible but I think you're already doing that.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

He seems to feel somewhat better. He's moving around more and staying at the top rather than laying on the bottom. However, the stuff around his nose/mouth is kinda cottony. I got a few pics - tried to get multiple angles. I don't know if it's bad or good. Also got a picture of the spot on his side.

He also looks like his tummy (right behind/under his gills) is a little bloated.

(forgive the brown stuff under the cup, I had it lying on the counter while I was changing the water in his quarantine tank)


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

His scales are starting to raise as well, I see.  And you say it looks like he's getting another sore? Okay, first the most important thing is if you have other bettas, try very hard not to cross contaminate. Any of the bacterial infections that can cause symptoms like this are contagious and one, mycobacteria, is untreatable. 

There is another way to euthanize if you would prefer not to wait until the Finquel arrives. I have not used this method before but others, including LittleBettaFish, have. You can always PM her for advice if you choose to use this method.

*Ice-Cold Bath
Tropical fish less than 2 inches in length can be euthanized by exposing them to freezing cold water. The fish is put into a small container along with some aquarium water at the normal temperature. This container is then placed into a much larger container filled with crushed ice. This will rapidly chill the water in the smaller container, eventually rendering the fish unconscious. When death is verified, the fish can be removed.
*
This was taken from this website:
Aquarium Fish Euthanasia

In his weakened state, this method should be effective and pretty quick. It is considering humane because the ice never touches the fish's body.

Either way, I always encourage people to have Finquel on hand so it's good you ordered it. 

Poor guy, he's really a fighter to hang in there so long but I think even his body is starting to shut down.

Almost forgot. To euthanize with Finquel, I use a 1/2 tsp of Finquel and a 1/2 tsp of baking soda in a gallon container.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

I didn't even notice the raised scales until you mentioned it, but now I see them. Poor little fella.

Everything I've been using to treat him is going in the trash when he's gone and I've been very careful to wash my hands thoroughly and rinse them in almost scalding water before I do anything with my other boys. They all seem to be fine, thankfully.

I'm going to give him until Saturday then make my decision if I haven't received the Finquel. This is just agonizing. 

Sakura, I thank you so much for your advice, help and encouragement. At least he had a chance. I'm just sorry I didn't treat him earlier. Dramaqueen - thank you for your support and encouragement. It's tough for people who don't have these fish to understand why we get so upset over them.

I'll update this thread if there are any changes.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Melodica, you've been doing so much for him so don't feel bad or have any regrets. I'm really impressed and touched by the care you've been giving this guy. I think that's why he's hung on and fought for so long is because you've cared so well for him.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with Sakura. He's a lucky little guy to have someone who cares so much and tried to do everything she could to save him.


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## Melodica (Dec 2, 2012)

My poor little boy isn't suffering anymore. 

He was still at the top last night when I went to bed. When I got up this morning, he had passed away. Part of me is relieved that he isn't in pain anymore. The other part is angry with myself for not jumping on it and treating him when I first saw the white spot.

Again, I thank both of you for all your help, kind words and encouragement. I know that he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did without your help.

~Melody


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm sorry for your loss. Sometimes it's hard to tell when to jump in and treat or just wait. You did everything you could for him and I'm sure he knew how much you loved him by the wonderful care you gave him.


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