# New to breeding....lots of choices....which do you like? :-)



## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

Hello everyone

So....I've loved Bettas all my life but in the last while I have been fascinated with the different mutations. This of course led me to researching about breeding....I can't say I will for sure ever do it, as I like to research and learn everything I can for some time beforehand, but it's a possibility sometime in the future.

That being said, I want to enjoy the beauty of 'top' Bettas, and I would rather get ones that would be desirable to breed just in case I do decide to do it this Spring/Summer. My husband has even shown interest in looking through them, so I know I have support there. But how do you choose?! I love them all!

I've been glued to Aquabid, and have watched ones I've fallen in love with get bought up. One auction even disappeared so I am sure an outside offer was made. I was so upset!

So I'm going to try and get a couple in the next couple of days and would love to ask your opinions on the following. I seem to love HM Bettas with long flowing tails, and light colors. There are some unique dark ones I love as well. If you have any suggestions of ones you've seen online, or if you have any for sale yourself, please let me know

Am also looking for a turquoise butterfly....saw one long ago with white on the body....would love something like this.

1. This platinum butterfly HM is the one I just bought today! What do you think? What kind of female would you recommend before I ask the seller?










2. This red crystal dragon is one I'm currently working on with a seller, they are just getting back to me concerning a female. What would you recommend? What do you think of him?











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So below are the ones I have not decided on yet. I can only pick two!


3. I LOVE LOVE LOVE long fins, and this guy is just crazy beautiful. Same questions as above....what do you think? 










4. I think this one is super cool. Love the color....










5. Not sure how quality this CT is but I find him to be very cool!











6. So awesome and pretty!









7. Love the color shimmer on this guy. Would love to find a pure white like this one with loooong fins!












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Below are the ones I missed out on and was pretty sad about. Thoughts on them or does anyone here have a similar one for sale?

A.










B. I was so in love with this guy, I am kicking myself! Listed as a marbled double tail I believe....










C. This to me seemed like an incredible crowntail. :-(











So yes, any thought, opinions, suggestions are welcome. I want to keep my collection very different, though I know I have this thing for light colors and loooonng flowing fins!

Thanks so much in advance


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

I love almost every fish that the seller of #3 puts out... you'd get great, consistent quality spawn with him since I see very similar fish always posted (stable genetics).

I also find #7's quality to be outstanding! Very crisp halfmoon, no curved edges! He also is very well balanced. The color is unique and you can probably fix it to what you like... 

I'm not super experienced, but I do my research too! A lot of things you can fix with time and determination, so pick one thing you really want in your starters... color, finnage, or body?


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## jschristian44 (Jan 6, 2011)

wow those are some amazing looking betta fish. i really liked the first one, but i kept scrolling down and they all looked amazing. i wish my guys tail looked like that, but instead his fins are all narrower and not full like those. is this because its not a quality fish and one from walmart/


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

Being from Walmart you probably got a Veil Tail betta. The ones this guy is looking at are mostly Halfmoon, with a couple Crowntail...


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## fflores (Dec 9, 2010)

its incredible that, at least when it comes to aquabid, not a single USA breeder has fishes that even come place to comparing to the Thai-based breeders


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## jschristian44 (Jan 6, 2011)

yeah half moon is what i want those fins are amazing. and yeah i got a veil tail.


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

monroe0704 said:


> I love almost every fish that the seller of #3 puts out... you'd get great, consistent quality spawn with him since I see very similar fish always posted (stable genetics).
> 
> I also find #7's quality to be outstanding! Very crisp halfmoon, no curved edges! He also is very well balanced. The color is unique and you can probably fix it to what you like...
> 
> I'm not super experienced, but I do my research too! A lot of things you can fix with time and determination, so pick one thing you really want in your starters... color, finnage, or body?



Heya!

Arg, still trying to decide. I think it's down to the yellow one (yet I hear too long finnage is not good because then it's not classified as HM?)

So, yes, I think I am going with #7 like you said. And now I found a double tail cellophane that I think is PERFECT! What do you what do you you think about #7 and this one then?


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

BTW than you Monroe0704, I appreciate your input!
I think I saw you bidding on there for a pretty DT!


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## jschristian44 (Jan 6, 2011)

i would pick number 3 or 7.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I like most of them..not that red double tail though...too veilish. I suggest joining the IBC, reading the standards, and then choosing the fish.


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

StarSpun said:


> BTW than you Monroe0704, I appreciate your input!
> I think I saw you bidding on there for a pretty DT!


Prob was me! I had a HM male from banleangbettas, but he didn't make it after a rough trip... the DT is nearly his identical twin (minus being a DT), much to my relief!

MrVampire also makes a great point. I have researched various websites, but I still don't know nearly enough about show quality standards... I was going to join the IBC soon since I'm serious about breeding, so I'd suggest the same to you if you like to ensure quality in your lines. 

Oh and as for that cellophane DT.... his body doesn't appear ideal... it may or may not be hard to fix that down the road.


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## Bettas143 (Dec 20, 2010)

I really liked the last crowntail betta


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

monroe0704 said:


> Prob was me! I had a HM male from banleangbettas, but he didn't make it after a rough trip... the DT is nearly his identical twin (minus being a DT), much to my relief!
> 
> MrVampire also makes a great point. I have researched various websites, but I still don't know nearly enough about show quality standards... I was going to join the IBC soon since I'm serious about breeding, so I'd suggest the same to you if you like to ensure quality in your lines.
> 
> Oh and as for that cellophane DT.... his body doesn't appear ideal... it may or may not be hard to fix that down the road.



Heya!

That DT you are bidding on is so pretty! Good luck!
I think I WILL join the IBC (thanks MrVampire!). Visited there a couple of times already!

About the Cellophane, do you mean his body or his fins/tail? I DID notice that his body seemed a bit flat at the back at the base of the tail. Not as much curve. Also, I think the double tail has to be more pronounced but I am not sure....?? I just think it's so very very pretty!

What do y'all think of this one?











I think I'm in love! I may just get him! Any thoughts?

Thanks to everyone again


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

What pretty colors! Hopefully someone else jumps on and gives their opinion... Dragon scaling confuses me sometimes on what is good and what's not. His anal fin is a little long, but I bet you people will buy the babies for sure! Really, that's all that matters in the end!

The cellophane looked a little stumpy in proportion to his fin length... and he just looks a little off.. but again, I'm not the best to listen to haha.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

You seem to be most interested in the rose tail trait. Are you aware of the potential defects that go along with breeding rosetails or the fact that they tend not to do well at show?

IMO number 7 is hands down the best if you posted. Realize that a good breeder breeds for both finnage and color. A well put together fish is pretty no matter what color it is, a fish with ugly fins and a deformed body will be ugly no matter what color it is.

I'll second the suggestion that you join the IBC and learn what to look for in a well put together fish. There's a lot more to breeding than just getting two fish who's colors you like and spawning them.


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> You seem to be most interested in the rose tail trait. Are you aware of the potential defects that go along with breeding rosetails or the fact that they tend not to do well at show?
> 
> IMO number 7 is hands down the best if you posted. Realize that a good breeder breeds for both finnage and color. A well put together fish is pretty no matter what color it is, a fish with ugly fins and a deformed body will be ugly no matter what color it is.
> 
> I'll second the suggestion that you join the IBC and learn what to look for in a well put together fish. There's a lot more to breeding than just getting two fish who's colors you like and spawning them.



Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. I am going to join the IBC for sure. It's interesting you mentioned the rosetail, you are right....I seem to be drawn to them! I love how the top and bottom fins extent beyond the tail....more so than it being all even. I do love #7 as well so I went ahead and bought him. I have space for one more at this point. I love the last one I posted, but I believe this is more of a rose tail then!

Heh!

Thanks again!


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> I'll second the suggestion that you join the IBC and learn what to look for in a well put together fish. There's a lot more to breeding than just getting two fish who's colors you like and spawning them.


Sorry for hijacking the thread for a minute....

I must be blind. I've gone of the IBC page numerous times and I still can't find where they list the standards for bettas??! Can someone link it to me?


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

monroe0704 said:


> Sorry for hijacking the thread for a minute....
> 
> I must be blind. I've gone of the IBC page numerous times and I still can't find where they list the standards for bettas??! Can someone link it to me?



I think you have to join to see the standards, at least from what I read on the sign up page. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

Lol I just joined and I'm still not finding it... oh well someone will help.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Have you been invited to Better Bettas yet? Its the yahoo group associated with the IBC. Once you get added there you can access the standards if you go to the files section in Better Bettas.


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## monroe0704 (Nov 17, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> Have you been invited to Better Bettas yet? Its the yahoo group associated with the IBC. Once you get added there you can access the standards if you go to the files section in Better Bettas.


Ah hah! I knew I was missing something! Thanks


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

that last dragon that you showed on page 2 was very nice i like that one most


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@StarSpun: As a basic guide line for "worthy to breed" HM, their fins must be symmetrical from top (dorsal) to bottom (anal) - forming a half circle. Both dorsal and anal should lean forward or at least stand upright. None of the fins are suppose to fold or curl in anyway. Thus rose tails aren't advised as breeders (they also carry defective genes of some sort). As for colors; that's personal preference. 

If you do breed one day, I suggest you breed a pair with similar color/patterns in the hope of getting similar outcomes. Even siblings with different color patterns may not give you the desired offspring (color wise).


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

indjo said:


> @StarSpun: As a basic guide line for "worthy to breed" HM, their fins must be symmetrical from top (dorsal) to bottom (anal) - forming a half circle. Both dorsal and anal should lean forward or at least stand upright. None of the fins are suppose to fold or curl in anyway. Thus rose tails aren't advised as breeders (they also carry defective genes of some sort). As for colors; that's personal preference.
> 
> If you do breed one day, I suggest you breed a pair with similar color/patterns in the hope of getting similar outcomes. Even siblings with different color patterns may not give you the desired offspring (color wise).


Thanks for the advice, indjo, I appreciate it. I did get #7 which did look pretty nice. What do you think of him?

Also for the big yellow #3, I watched a video of him and he seemed to line up even though his fins just look all insane. I take it he is not a desirable HM though? I just love him


I seem to really have a thing for rosetails and for those with fins that look like feathers. Actually my favorite looking Betta is this one:










Oh well! HEH!
Thanks again! I am still looking for a perfect white, although now I'm confused about what that is! A breeder perfect white, or my perfect white;-)


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## Neelie (Feb 18, 2010)

StarSpun said:


> Actually my favorite looking Betta is this one:
> 
> Oh well! HEH!


^^^^ i would kill for that betta. i actually would.... 
its probably the nicest i've ever seen.....

as for your choice. i would tanke 2 or 3. 
thats just my personal taste though ;-)


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

TBH I love rose tails too and sometimes breed them. But it's a fact that many would have to be culled due to short curly fins which I can't even give away (defects mainly show after fish reaches 6 moths +). IMO #3 is gorgeous and is not a rose. Unfortunately he has too many rays which fold instead of spread - thus is considered a defect (for breeding). Then again I often challenge the theories and if I had one like him, I would breed him to a female with few rays - say a delta. But that's just me and I often cull hard.

So I must advise #7 as a better breeder than #3. All you need is a good symmetrical female which is often difficult to get.

That's an amazing white - clean and thick. He would be a nice collection. I have never seen one as gorgeous as him. Unfortunately I have never bred feather tails so I know nothing about them.


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

Neelie said:


> ^^^^ i would kill for that betta. i actually would....
> its probably the nicest i've ever seen.....
> 
> as for your choice. i would tanke 2 or 3.
> thats just my personal taste though ;-)



I agree!

And yes I think I WOULD kill for that betta. Apparently it sold for over $400. Amazing eh? I am not surprised though....to me that defines the perfect Betta!


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

indjo said:


> TBH I love rose tails too and sometimes breed them. But it's a fact that many would have to be culled due to short curly fins which I can't even give away (defects mainly show after fish reaches 6 moths +). IMO #3 is gorgeous and is not a rose. Unfortunately he has too many rays which fold instead of spread - thus is considered a defect (for breeding). Then again I often challenge the theories and if I had one like him, I would breed him to a female with few rays - say a delta. But that's just me and I often cull hard.
> 
> So I must advise #7 as a better breeder than #3. All you need is a good symmetrical female which is often difficult to get.
> 
> That's an amazing white - clean and thick. He would be a nice collection. I have never seen one as gorgeous as him. Unfortunately I have never bred feather tails so I know nothing about them.


Thank you so much for your input, I appreciate it!
I bought #7, and I think #3 ends after the transhippers date for shipments, sooooo maybe for the best:-( I do love #3 though!

So concerning culling, how do you do this? How old are they? How do you know of defects so early? (When I hear the word 'cull', I think of Stargate and the 'Wraith' culling the humans. sorry, I'm a total nerd Ha Ha!)

Ok, so I have three fish bought so far. I will possibly buy one more, just waiting for the right one! I have AquaStar71 looking into Cellophanes for me....


So now concerning females for the three I have picked, I am making another post right now!  Will update here when I am done

Thanks again!


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Here's the thing. You can do whatever you want with breeding but you have to be willing to cull. If you have no scruples about culling all the fish in an entire spawn except one or two good ones than feel free to mix and match and see what you get.

The problem comes in with new breeders is 
1. They don't really know what to look for in a great fish
2. They don't have the heart to kill fish
3.They don't know enough about genetics to know how to get what they want from the fry.

If you truly want to breed rosetails no one can stop you, after all we are just a bunch of random voices from the unknown. But be prepared to kill fish with grotesquely formed fins or deformed bodies. Don't think "Oh I'll just find them adoptive homes" because it's very hard to be able to know who you can trust to give a great home and never breed and who will take the fish under false pretenses and then breed it, thus further muddying the gene pool.


That is why I always (and will always) suggest that new breeders find a nice sibling pair (or a well matched non-related pair) and get a handle on breeding and raising nice fish before they begin to experiment with other things such as color, fin type, etc.


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> Here's the thing. You can do whatever you want with breeding but you have to be willing to cull. If you have no scruples about culling all the fish in an entire spawn except one or two good ones than feel free to mix and match and see what you get.
> 
> The problem comes in with new breeders is
> 1. They don't really know what to look for in a great fish
> ...



Great advice 1fish2fish! Very interesting actually. So with the culling, I think I'd have a horrible time (I fall within the 'I don't have the heart to kill a fish' category!). How is it done and at what age? Are they so deformed that they cannot live quality life or do they just not have a trait that should be put out into the world?

Would you see my #7 as a nice fish to start with if I find a nice female like him?


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

I posted another thread here: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=555870#post555870

Trying to decide on females just in case I decide to do this!
Want to get them from the same seller....


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

First of all you must understand that betta genetics is quite complicated. You can't mix 2 colors and expect a 50 - 50 outcome or a mix like paint. You have to understand the parent's back ground.

When it comes to choosing females, I am more picky.... specially if they're expensive. In terms of form, stick to the basic guideline as best as possible. Try to get as half a circle as possible. Don't take the ones that have rather round edged tails (caudal). IMO, females determine the outcome of form. Thus, hopefully, you'll end up with pointed edged and perfect HM's. 

As for colors; just try to get their siblings so you'll have an idea of the outcome - specially your second male, a metallic (often experimented on). I would *NOT* breed the third male. Perhaps when you've gain more knowledge and experience, you can try breeding roses - but not now, as a beginner. IME 70 - 90% of rose will be deformed and will be very difficult to "clean out". So stick to healthy genetics.

How do I cull ..... I have a pool of large fish - currently catfish and giant gurami (don't know English name). As soon as I see deformities, I feed them to the large fish - deformed bodies can be spotted at 1 - 2 months. Deformed fins usually shows at a later age (4 - 6 months). 

Bettas can be bred since aged 4 months or so. But I advise waiting until they're about 6 months. Then you can be certain whether your breeder is fit to be bred or not because they will show their genetic defects (curled fins or whatever). 

For your first attempt, I suggest the mustard gas because it is more or less a single genetic code compared to the metallic. It is always easier to work with basic colors - you don't need "that perfect mutation". Don't worry about patterns such as butterfly because it is easy to add such genes/pheno's to any color. Besides, I think your second male may have butterfly in his background.


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## StarSpun (Oct 19, 2010)

indjo said:


> First of all you must understand that betta genetics is quite complicated. You can't mix 2 colors and expect a 50 - 50 outcome or a mix like paint. You have to understand the parent's back ground.
> 
> When it comes to choosing females, I am more picky.... specially if they're expensive. In terms of form, stick to the basic guideline as best as possible. Try to get as half a circle as possible. Don't take the ones that have rather round edged tails (caudal). IMO, females determine the outcome of form. Thus, hopefully, you'll end up with pointed edged and perfect HM's.
> 
> ...



Heya Indjo!

Thank you so much for the great information. I will for sure be following your advice!  For sure trying the MG first!

So much to take in....!


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