# bringing back mustard gas bettas



## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm not sure if this is in the right section, if it isn't supposed to be here, mods, could you move it?

For some reason right now I am extremely interested in breeding bettas of course I have a long way to go before I even a attempt a breeding project. So right now i'm just reading everything I can get my hands on. 
Something that has really caught my eye is true mustard gas bettas. Something interesting that I found out in my research is that there are no more true mustard gas bettas.

Here is what I found! (this paragraph is not my work it is taken off the aquariumwiki.com)

The term "Mustard Gas" was originally coined by breeder/hobbyist Jude Als to describe his particular line of multicolored bettas. The original Mustard Gas bettas were green-bodied fish with variegated bands of blue or green, yellow, and black. In 1999, Als added a band of white as well, developing certain specimens of Mustard Gas into a four-banded butterfly, the colors of which were never clearly separated, but rather run together, creating an effect that looked like gas to its creator.

The article carries on to say that he sold the few mustard gases to other breeders who later out crossed the line and the true mustard gas color was lost. Another website said that Jude Als didn't share his stock so the mustard bettas died out. Either way true mustard gas betas are now extinct.
As I am sure most of you have noticed the term "mustard gas" is way over used now. Any fish with yellow or green in the fins and/or body are considered mustard gas. But shouldn't they really be considered bicolored fish?

the article continued on

One of the most intriguing aspect of the Mustard Gas strain name was the controversy it caused among breeders and hobbyists all over the world who were able to acquire fish from Als' strain and, once having spawned them, were at a loss for what to call them. Als was very protective of his Mustard Gas name, and felt that once the pure line was outcrossed in any way, the resulting fish could no longer be called "Mustard Gas". He rallied hard to get others to stop using his strain name, even to the point of securing a trademark for the name in 2002. The primary focus of his campaign was Marianne Lewis, to whom he had given 1 pure Mustard Gas fish, a male. Lewis bred that male to several female fish in her fishroom from different lines, and many fish came of a result of those matings that looked, to her eyes, identical to the Mustard Gas fish she obtained from Als. She bred and sold these "Mustard Gas" fish until Als asked her to quit, at which point she changed the name to "Salamander". This added to the confusion, since people started equating Mustard Gas outcrosses with Salamander, and any red bicolor fish they bred that came from a yellow bicolor outcross was named "Salamander". (It should be noted, however, that Lewis' Salamanders are actually yellow bicolors that resemble the Mustard Gas, and since the creator of the term (Lewis) does not even use the strain name anymore, all those "Salamanders" you see out there are probably as fake as the "MG's".)

So basically true mustard gasses are lost and breeders slap the name on any bicolor fish with yellow.
MG by definition is a blue bodied fish, yellow/orange fins and blue or black outlining band around the fins.

My question is is there a way to bring back true mustard gas? Or if it's not possible why is it not possible? I imagine it would take a lot of generations to get true MG but is it possible?

Sorry for the really long post but I'm trying to find a goal for my first spawn! and I really love the idea of working with MG! Here is a picture of a male HM MG bred by Jude Als.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

They are my favorite color combination! My first betta was a modern-day mustard gas and I've had a couple females and now one male that is mustard gas.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> They are my favorite color combination! My first betta was a modern-day mustard gas and I've had a couple females and now one male that is mustard gas.


Beautiful fish! I love koi and MG! I have a MG pair right now that I got off aquabid. They kinda sparked my interest for breeding mustards gas bettas. 

Do you guys know if the female is a true MG? She has the black band and the yellow fins so I have been calling her one but I am not 100% sure.
So anyway here are my two mustard gas!


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

The only "true" MG come from the line decades ago. There is no way to tell which fish come from that line, if any. And how pure that line is. I, personally, prefer MGs that have a Traditional form, dragon scale fins with masks, blue banding around solid gold fins, and no blue bleed. I am not sure there even is a standard today for mustard gases. I have seen everything from red and multicolored to brown bettas called "mustard gas," which, frankly, is upsetting. I'd call your pair MGs and would LOVE to read a spawn log if you breed them (please do, if not, I will steal them and breed them!).


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO

I have no self control


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO
> 
> I have no self control


well I'm so (not) sorry! PS I may want their babies! :smile2:

Sorry when I asked if she was a true MG I didn't mean true as in the first generation of MG. Sorry about that!
The more and more I'm researching about this the more I want to breed my pair. Indijo, a member off this forum sent me a betta breeding paper about 40 pages long so right now I'm reading and marking that up.
From what I have read spawns can have up to 700 adult fry. I can't care for 700 fish! Of course those numbers fluctuate depending on how strict you are on culling and how other things turn out. 
So even if I only ended up with 200 fry how would I rehome those 200? I would plan on keeping 2 or 3 pairs out of a spawn. But that is still hundreds of fry to rehome.
Are females more valuable than males? Or are males more valuable than females? I have heard that lower temperatures make more females and higher temperatures make more males.

The other thing that confuses me is genetics so I still have a long way to go there! My two MG HMPK actually came from a koi marble spawn the they carry the marble gene. So what do you think the babies would look like? I guess that's all part of the fun!
@kitkat67 I know you breed. And I was wondering if sometime in the future I plan on breeding this pair or another pair what tank size do you use for a grow out tank? I was thinking a 40 gallon breeder.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

I breed mine in a 20 gallon long and still have them in there at week 8. I will be moving them to a large plastic storage tub for convenience. I honestly have no idea how many fry I have, I suck at guesstimating. But it's less than 100, and more than 20. I don't think you will get 700 fry in the later stages of their life. Maybe a couple hundred at most, but more like 100. This spawn I have is actually two spawns, back-to-back. I rebred the female to the same male three days after the first spawn. A 40 gallon sounds reasonable for ~100 fry provided there are lots of plants and you take the aggressive males out and jar them the second they show aggression. I don't plan on keeping any males from my spawn; I want a nice sorority.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> I breed mine in a 20 gallon long and still have them in there at week 8. I will be moving them to a large plastic storage tub for convenience. I honestly have no idea how many fry I have, I suck at guesstimating. But it's less than 100, and more than 20. I don't think you will get 700 fry in the later stages of their life. Maybe a couple hundred at most, but more like 100. This spawn I have is actually two spawns, back-to-back. I rebred the female to the same male three days after the first spawn. A 40 gallon sounds reasonable for ~100 fry provided there are lots of plants and you take the aggressive males out and jar them the second they show aggression. I don't plan on keeping any males from my spawn; I want a nice sorority.


100 sounds like a reasonable amount! I guess I'll just keep doing my research!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Though some get lucky and produce 500+ to adult, most beginners produce less than 100 to adult. Anything can go wrong which for beginners may not be too obvious.

Try to cook up a deal with your local fish store - then breed. Try to produce as many as possible so that you get a good number of genetic combo variations to choose from.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

indjo said:


> Though some get lucky and produce 500+ to adult, most beginners produce less than 100 to adult. Anything can go wrong which for beginners may not be too obvious.
> 
> Try to cook up a deal with your local fish store - then breed. Try to produce as many as possible so that you get a good number of genetic combo variations to choose from.


Thanks for the help! I'll call them today!


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Not buying any more, but thought you should see these guys I found on ebay:


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Not buying any more, but thought you should see these guys I found on ebay:


wow! They are beautiful! I guess this is payback from your female!


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## mattfaria12 (Apr 4, 2016)

Good info here. I to want to get into breeding but the number of fry i will have might be to much to care for.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

mattfaria12 said:


> Good info here. I to want to get into breeding but the number of fry i will have might be to much to care for.


You could always destroy some eggs or cull later in your spawn.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> You could always destroy some eggs or cull later in your spawn.


What's your experience with the number of fry? The spawn I got my MG pair from only had 5 males and about 70 females. Do you usually end up with more males or more females? If I ended up with more females then it would be easier on me! Because more males means more tanks or jars to clean out!

And how do you go about heating the jars? Do you use heat tape?


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

First spawn I only had 20 or so, none survived to adulthood, I ended up feeding them to my adult bettas. And this spawn I m seeing more males, I believe. But it's too early for me to be able to tell.

I read somewhere the female bettas age determines the majority of the spawn's sex. It's either younger more males and older more females or something like that.


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## mattfaria12 (Apr 4, 2016)

kitkat67 said:


> You could always destroy some eggs or cull later in your spawn.


What does "cull later in your spawn" mean?


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

mattfaria12 said:


> What does "cull later in your spawn" mean?


Cull-remove them and euthanize them or feed to your bigger fish.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

I got some pictures of the siblings of my pair because their siblings and parents look nothing like them! What do you guys think their spawn would look like? They obviously would carry the marble gene! Pictures 1-3 are of their parents pictures 4-5 are a few of their siblings. BTW these fish are off lovelybettas on instagram she also has a aquabid account called lovelybettas.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Whaaaaa, koi and MG in the same spawn?!


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Whaaaaa, koi and MG in the same spawn?!


I know I thought it was strange too!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

MG was a lucky "surprise". It probably had an irid grandparent or somewhere up its line.

IMO even though it doesn't show marble, you will probably get lots of marbles . . . I find them partially dominant and will keep producing marbles for a few generations. If you are specifically after MG, I'd say use a non marble pair.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

indjo said:


> MG was a lucky "surprise". It probably had an irid grandparent or somewhere up its line.
> 
> IMO even though it doesn't show marble, you will probably get lots of marbles . . . I find them partially dominant and will keep producing marbles for a few generations. If you are specifically after MG, I'd say use a non marble pair.


Sounds like a plan! I'll look for a completely MG pair that (hopefully) has no marble gene!


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

I got a MG female a couple weeks ago for a male I've had for a long time and wouldn't ya know it he died not long after I got my female. I can't believe I just wasted all that money for a spawn that never happened.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> I got a MG female a couple weeks ago for a male I've had for a long time and wouldn't ya know it he died not long after I got my female. I can't believe I just wasted all that money for a spawn that never happened.


Oh no! He was beautiful! If you want my male...LOL I'm just kidding!

I kinda wonder what kind of babies these two would make, they haven't marbles YET. Still the same steady MG coloration.
I'm going to talk to the original breeder and see how their other siblings turned out.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Wow. Thanks for the emotional roller coaster.

If you want my male... :-D:lol:

LOL, I'm just kidding! :-?:sad:



:neutral:


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Wow. Thanks for the emotional roller coaster.
> 
> If you want my male... :-D:lol:
> 
> ...


Aw, I'm sorry! I'll keep an eye for a MG male for you!

EDIT: @*KitKat* I found one real MG after looking through all the HMPK pages on aquabid! He's beautiful and I'm really tempted to get him. Except that he's 80$ for the starting price...What do you think of him? here is a picture and the link to the auction!
AquaBid.com - Item # fwbettashmp1467190488 - *** MARBLE BLUE MUSTARD *** - Ends: Wed Jun 29 2016 - 03:54:48 AM CDT


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

He's too expensive and his bands are too thick for my liking, but thank you anyway! I just wished my male or my first betta successfully spawned.


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## themamaj (May 11, 2015)

Good luck with spawn! Really love the mustard gas and think the ones with deep colors are so stunning. Would love to see breeding go back as close to original colors as possible.
What do you think of the new paradise bettas Petco is selling?
Look forward to following your posts.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

themamaj said:


> Good luck with spawn! Really love the mustard gas and think the ones with deep colors are so stunning. Would love to see breeding go back as close to original colors as possible.
> What do you think of the new paradise bettas Petco is selling?
> Look forward to following your posts.


Thank you! Unfortunately it will probably be a while before I spawn! I like the paradise bettas but have not found a real MG coloration at petco. I think they are beautiful but haven't found one that has really caught my eye.

I''m really hoping I feel prepared enough to start a breeding project soon!

Anyway, I am actually staring to buy the supplies needed for breeding. I so far have a 40 gallon breeder, with a a few sponge filters, I ordered a heater, I also have an empty 20 gallon, a 10 gallon breeding tank, plenty of floating plants and other live plants.
I feel genuinely prepared. Of course I still have quite a few thing to purchase! I think 100 jars for males will be more than enough. I just need to figure out the cheapest way to do that! I also need to get heat tape, live food, etc.
I have also decided I will cull using ice water or clove oil.

I just have a few questions for breeders.
-How many minutes/hours do you spend on your spawn(s) daily?
-what in your opinion is the best food for fry?
-what are your rules for culling?
-where do you sell/giveaway your fish?
-what age is best for breeding?
-when do separate males?
-do you keep your females together?


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Might I suggest avoiding both of those cull methods? Ice water takes too long and they suffer and clove oil is carcinogenic and bad for the environment. I use boiling water as it kills them quicker than their nerve synapses have time to react so they feel no pain.

1. depends how far along in age they are. In the beginning maybe 15 minutes multiple times a day, now at week 10/11 I just feed a few times a day and clean on Saturdays.
2. I did not feed my fry until they were a few weeks old. I had an established planted tank with lots of microorganisms they ate. Then solely microworms, now at week 10/11 bloodworms and pellets.
3. I cull when they show signs of lethargy, dropsy, curved spine, and slow growth. I like to preemptively cull to avoid everyone getting sick. I only use boiling water, no chemicals or slow freezing. The ones that have physical problems, only, I feed to my larger fish.
4. online (ebay/forum), college, and petstore
5. no age is best for breeding. It only depends on how healthy and up to it your fish are. I have breed 3+ year old fish and 4 mo fish.
6. I am at week 10/11 and am not separating yet. I know people who jar earlier. I might wait a few more weeks.
7. Yes! It would be too much work to keep so many jars! And this way you have a nice established sorority!


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

themamaj said:


> new paradise bettas .


What is that? Do you have pictures?


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Might I suggest avoiding both of those cull methods? Ice water takes too long and they suffer and clove oil is carcinogenic and bad for the environment. I use boiling water as it kills them quicker than their nerve synapses have time to react so they feel no pain.
> 
> 1. depends how far along in age they are. In the beginning maybe 15 minutes multiple times a day, now at week 10/11 I just feed a few times a day and clean on Saturdays.
> 2. I did not feed my fry until they were a few weeks old. I had an established planted tank with lots of microorganisms they ate. Then solely microworms, now at week 10/11 bloodworms and pellets.
> ...


Thank you for the different cull method! I'll look more into it!


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Here is what I've compiled knowledge-wise this year.

Freezing- takes a long time, fish is suffering in a ziploc bag/container. Metabolism slows and fish is really cold until organs fail.
Ice water- not instantaneous. Like throwing a person into a frozen lake. Yeah, you die, but not right away. Shock first, then you die.
Clove oil/chemicals- carcinogenic, bad for environment. (Biochem and chem professors would not handle clove oil without a fume hood, gloves, and goggles). Also dosage is tricky.
Boiling/Clubbing- instantaneous, but you need to be mentally prepared because it's no light thing to do.
Letting nature take it's course- IMO only horrible people do this, letting an animal suffer. But hey, no emotional trauma of killing something.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Here is what I've compiled knowledge-wise this year.
> 
> Freezing- takes a long time, fish is suffering in a ziploc bag/container. Metabolism slows and fish is really cold until organs fail.
> Ice water- not instantaneous. Like throwing a person into a frozen lake. Yeah, you die, but not right away. Shock first, then you die.
> ...


Thank you so much!


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Veiltails are not my thing but these two are perfectly paired!


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Veiltails are not my thing but these two are perfectly paired!


They're nice .But I like my pair more. lol :smile2:


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

Ok, I have decided to breed my pair! Finally!
I'm really nervous but exited. I won't actually spawn them until the end of July/early August because I'm going out of town for a while.
And in the next couple weeks I'll be purchasing everything I need and doing more research.
I'm going to be going after dark colored MG, and I'm curious what kind of babies these two will make because their parents were koi marbles.

I was flaring them yesterday (I got a video and posted it on instagram here's the link:https://www.instagram.com/p/BHOWykwDx65/?taken-by=fins.and.tails ) and they are really ready! I'm not though! In fact Ponyo (the male) built a HUGE bubblenest this morning!

I'm so exited!


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Spawn log! Spawn log! Spawn log!


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

ThatFishThough said:


> Spawn log! Spawn log! Spawn log!


I'll start one soon(ish) I promise!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Nova betta said:


> I just have a few questions for breeders.
> -How many minutes/hours do you spend on your spawn(s) daily?
> -what in your opinion is the best food for fry?
> -what are your rules for culling?
> ...


1. During spawning - per day . . . probably 10-20 minutes. If the pair immediately show breeding behavior, only about 2 - 5 minutes.
2. Infusoria or micro critters for the first few days. Other foods are often not eaten - regardless whether live or man made
3. Deformed and weak
4. Anyone - mostly LFS
5. 5 - 8 months. But I often breed 4 and 12+ months
6. If I don't plan to rebreed soon - as long as possible (2-4 months)
If I plan to rebreed, as soon as fry are free swimming
7. Most, yes. And many older males also go into juvie or female sororities until I want to breed them.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

Found this in my email. Are you ****ing kidding me?! I am on the hunt for MG bettas and they are now charging more for blue/orange "PARADISE BETTAS." #$^&$##$%[email protected]#!^^&&#[email protected]@$!

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

kitkat67 said:


> Found this in my email. Are you ****ing kidding me?! I am on the hunt for MG bettas and they are now charging more for blue/orange "PARADISE BETTAS." #$^&$##$%[email protected]#!^^&&#[email protected]@$!
> 
> THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!


Yup, a rip off IMO!


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

AquaBid.com - Item # fwbettashmp1468734969 - MUSTARD HM FEMALE - Ends: Sun Jul 17 2016 - 12:56:09 AM CDT

Just found her, she's pretty. <3


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

I could consider her just a bi-color. She does not have that nice blue banding.


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