# Betta has lost color and is much less active



## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Background:

Housing
What size is your tank - 1 gallon
What temperature is your tank - N/A, I don't have a thermometer or heater, but the water does feel warm.
Does your tank have a filter - No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? - Pump with an air stone
Is your tank heated? - No
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? - None

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? - TetraMin Tropical Flakes
How often do you feed your betta fish? - Every other day.

Maintenance
How often do you perform a water change? - When the water begins to look unclear.
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? - Full water change.
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? - No additives

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: N/A
Nitrite: N/A
Nitrate: N/A
pH: N/A
Hardness: N/A
Alkalinity: N/A

I use 1 gallon of drinking water.

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? - Loss of color (more below).
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? - Dramatically reduced activity; stays mostly at the bottom (more below).
When did you start noticing the symptoms? - approximalely 2-3 weeks ago?
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? - Began treatment February 08, 2013 with 1 dose of Bettafix.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? - No prior history.
How old is your fish (approximately)? - Approximately 20 months

The usual tank conditions for my male Betta (in addition to the above):

4 artificial plants,
glass aquarium gravel,

I've had him for almost two years and up to this point, he hasn't had any problems that I'm aware of. I believe on January 18th of this year I performed a full water change and changed the gravel. Instead of using my usual glass aquarium gravel, I switched to Spectrazone Permaglo Black Lagoon for Freshwater Aquariums, which is advertised as not affecting water pH and having a non-toxic coating. The reason I switched is because there have been a few times in the past when I noticed that my Betta's fins would get wedged in between the glass aquarium gravels and he'd have a hard time getting himself out. I thought the gravel would be safer for him.

Within two days of having the new gravel in the aquarium, I noticed that the water was slightly cloudy. My fish seemed fine and I decided to monitor the water to see if the cloudiness worsened. It did not, but I noticed that my Betta, who is normally a dark blue, was getting slightly pale underneath his gills. He was still active and swimming and eating and everything seemed fine, so I decided to just keep an eye on him.

Then on Wednesday of this week, I noticed that the paleness had worsened and spread to the actual gill area (side of his head) and along the length of the lower half of his body. So I did a full water change and got rid of the Spectrazone gravel and went back to the glass aquarium gravel that I had been using. Along with his loss of color, he is spending most of the time at the bottom of the tank and is slightly tilted. He only comes up every once in a while for air and then goes back to the bottom. 

I tried feeding him on Wednesday night, and it seemed like he was trying to eat, but he was struggling to get to the top and he didn't eat very much.

Last night I went to Petsmart and bought a bottle of Bettafix and have since used one dose (1/2 tsp per gallon of water). I know it's only been one dose, but I don't see any improvement. I just tried to feed him and he does have an appetite, but he is not eating as much. I think he struggles to be at the top of the tank to get to his food, so he only ate a little and then returned to the botton of the tank. I've thought about lowering the water level so he doesn't have to struggle as much, but I'm worried about how to measure out the proper dosage of the Bettafix since there will no longer be 1 gallon of water in the tank.

I've been to several websites and I don't know if what he has is bacterial or fungal or internal or external. And there seem to be so many different antibiotics and remedies. I thought about using aquarium salt, but I didn't want to add too much too soon with the Bettafix. Also, someone asked a similar question on bettatalk.com, and the woman recommended Kanacyn, but I haven't been able to find it and I didn't want to delay treatment any longer. I almost perchased Maracyn-Two, but it didn't list Bettas among 
the fish it treats, and it comes in packets that are to be used in 10 gallon tanks, so I didn't want to risk overdosing my fish in his 1 gallon tank if I measured improperly.

In addition, I've read about people giving their Bettas boiled peas? Can anyone elaborate on why this is done and exactly how to prepare the peas?

I feel so absolutely guilty for not being more on top of things and removing him and changing the water the instant I noticed the water was cloudy. I thought I was doing things properly, but apparently not (not using aquarium salt or heater; more frequent water changing). 

I can't be sure that the Spectrazone gravel is at fault, but there seems to be a correlation. Any help is greatly appreciated. I am attaching photos of what my fish currently looks like. Thank you.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

The problem is your betta is suffering ammonia poisoning from lack of water changes. Your betta is also freezing and probably malnourished

In a bowl this small two weekly water changes are required (at minimum and personally I would do three based on experience) of 50% and 100% which includes rinsing the gravel and decor. 2 gallons is actually minimum for keeping bettas healthy long term and they just don't live more than a couple years on average compared to twice that+ in larger containers.

You have to use conditioner. Tap water is unsafe for bettas. It should say it remove chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals - must say all three and I suggest getting a liquid conditioner. I personally like Prime.

Bettas are tropical fish and must be kept with a heater unless you keep your house or room they are in a consistent (no change, peaks or drops) of 80F+. 78-80F is ideal and your betta's bowl will be several degrees below room temp. If you get a 2g tank you can get a 25w adjustable heater like Marineland Visitherm or Jager, which would be ideal. You also have to use an in tank thermometer with the heater to make sure it is working and set it properly (don't rely on the heater). I also highly suggest testing your heater for 24 hours with thermometer in similar size container to make sure it will hold an appropriate constant temperature. Once you are sure it is working your betta must be acclimated to warmer water slowly at no more than 1 degree per hour and 5 degrees per day, or floating in a plastic cup (solo type) in the bowl for an hour, after the water has already been fully warmed.

Flakes are not a good idea because of their lower nutritional value to pellets, and because they muck up the water faster which is especially bad in this tiny bowl. They also need two small meals daily (about the size of their eye as this is the size of their stomach) with one fast day a week. You should feed a pellet whose first two or three ingredients are _whole_ fish, not fish meal and wheat is the worst.

Plastic ornaments are generally not good for bettas because their fins are sensitive. You should test them all by removing them and thoroughly dragging women's panty hose through them to make sure they don't catch. If they catch, they need to be replaced. Silk are usually much better but sometimes even they have parts that catch.

============
At this point...

*Get conditioner
*Do a series of 2-3 50% water changes to get water quality under control and then finally a 100% change - then while he is healing do 100% change every other day for the next week or two and finally maintain water quality as above. Make sure to match all new water to existing water using a thermometer and add conditioner before introducing your fish to it. I would still include an acclimation period of at least 30min if not an hour in which you float the betta in a cup in the existing water and either add a few tablespoons every 10minutes, or a series of 50% wtaer changes to introduce new water into the cup every 10min. I would also never use a net and also scoop with the cup.
*Get a heater and a larger tank.
*Get better food
*Check your ornaments for catches


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Callistra,

Thank you for your reply. I want to reiterate that I don't use tap water; I use purified drinking water that I purchase from the store. Could his waste and any uneaten food be producing the Ammonia?

That being said, would you still recommend the conditioner? Also, should I continue to use the Bettafix or discontinue since you believe this is Ammonia poisoning? He seems to be coming up for air a little bit more frequently. I'm not sure if I can attribute that to the Bettafix or not.

I will also go get a 2 gallon tank as soon as possible along with the heater and thermometer.

I've tried feeding him the pellets, but he just leaves them. That's why I went to the flakes because that was the only thing he would eat at the very beginning when I first got him. But I'll try and find pellets with whole fish and give it a try again.

I'll also look for ornaments that are safe for him. I read that plants with rounded leaves are better than what I currently have.

Thank you again for your help.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Purified drinking water you buy in gallon jugs (or larger) from the grocery store is actually RO water and is not okay to keep any fish in without kh and gh buffers.. It lacks all minerals and fish cannot stay healthy in it. Why are you not using tap?

It's possible that some of the plastic plants are soft enough not to snag, but only testing will make sure. The really needly one is the biggest concern but he seems to really like that pink/red one so maybe it won't snag if you test it.

I would stop using Bettafix.

Also did you rinse the gravel before you put him in? If you did not this could also be a part of the cause, but it will be fixed with your water changes I think are needed.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

I rinse everything off really well each time I change his water; plants, gravel and tank.

The reason I wasn't using tap water is because I know it has harmful things in it like chlorine. I thought I would be getting a "cleaner" water by using purified drinking water and avoid having to use the conditioners.

I'll switch to tap and use the Prime conditioner you mentioned. Is this what you are speaking of http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753920? My local Petsmart seems somewhat limited in what it carries. I'll go tomorrow to see if they have it, but if they don't, Amazon is my next best bet. I'll expedite the shipping, but even with that I still won't get it until Tuesday and I'm worried about making him wait that long.

A few additional questions:



The product description for the Prime doesn't mention anything about gh and kh buffers. Do you use something in addition to the Prime for those, or is the Prime sufficient? When I do the first 50% water change, should I be concerned about the Prime having an adverse effect with the Bettafix that's already in the water?


What are your thoughts on using epsom/aquarium salts?
 

Could you make a recommendation on fish food? Is anything okay as long as it has whole fish as one of the first ingredients?
 

Do you recommend purchasing a tank that uses a filter? I remember reading reviews of some tanks where the reviewer(s) were unhappy that the filter sucked up their fish.
 

When you talk about floating the Solo cup in the aquarium for acclimation, how do you go about this without the cup tipping over?

I hope I'm not being a bother with all these questions. I just want to make sure I get this right.

Thank you again. You've been very helpful already.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Tackling the questions in your last post....

* Tap water has dissolved salts and minerals in it that your fish needs to survive. It also has disinfectants likes chlorine and chloramines, which is why using a water conditioner is recommended. As long as you add conditioner to the tap water each time you do a water change, the water will be safe for your fish. 

* A lot of people on this forum use Prime water conditioner because it temporarily neutralizes ammonia. But my personal opinion is that if you have a small tank and do frequent water changes, then *any* water conditioner that neutralizes/removes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals is fine. For example, I use Petsmart's Top Fin water conditioner. If my guys develop fin problems, then I use API's Stress Coat which contains aloe and helps promote healing.

* Since you have a 1 gal, unfiltered tank, and are going to be doing frequent water changes, you don't need to worry about GH and KH buffers. If you later upgrade to a larger, filtered tank, then yes, it's something to consider.

* I do not recommend using Bettafix since it contains an oil which can make it difficult for Bettas to breathe.

* Epsom salts are good for internal issues, such as constipation and bloating. If your fish doesn't have these, it's not needed.

* Aquarium salt is used temporarily for external issues, such as fin rot. However, Bettas are very sensitive to Aquarium salt. It should only be used if your fish has an external problem. And it should never be used for more than 10 days, since it can harm the internal organs. The best way to keep your fish from dealing with issues like fin rot is to keep him in warm, clean water.

* The two foods more often recommended on this forum are New Life Spectrum (NLS) Betta Pellets, and Omega One Betta Buffet Pellets.

* There are a lot of differing opinions about the need for a filter. In your one gallon tank, it's not needed. In fact, the water flow would probably just push your fish around too much. If you upgrade to a larger tank later on, it's definitely something you can look into.

* During acclimation, if you fill the cup about halfway or slightly higher, it won't tip over.  If mine starts to tilt, I will prop it up against the side of the tank, or some of the silk plants.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

When you use tap water you don't need anything for kh or gh. The tap water has all this in it. The RO strips it. Prime is good. Make sure when you acclimate from RO to tap you do so VERY slowly. I would do it over 2 hours or more where you add just a tablespoon of new water into the cup every 10minutes and then when it gets too full take a bunch out and start over. If you have a ph test kit that would be good. There may be huge ph difference between the two waters and you don't want to shock. As long as your tap water is under 9 it is safe.

I think using salts for stress or minor illness is good, but they shouldn't be used on a regular basis or without reason.

I use mostly New Life Spectrum Betta. Omega One Betta Buffet is good too. I'm not aware of any other whole fish pellets, but if you find them they should be good.

I think cycling a tank makes fish keeping a bunch easier, and the fish tend to live longer, but it's a lot more expensive and not necessary. As long as you have at least 2 gallons your fish will stay healthy. I have 5 gallons I do weekly 100% water change in and have not bothered to cycle. The only thing I will say with 2+g tanks is that you should buy an air pump, air stone and stone control valves to control valves for the airline to turn down the stone to a soft mist, and place it under the heater. Otherwise you will have pockets of cold and hot air.

I have used several methods. Mostly I squeeze it in between the lid and the side and this holds it. In a 1 gallon bowl you may need to do things like double sided foam tape (not in the water obviously) to rig it.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Callistra and LittleBlueFishlets,

Thank you both so much for your quick replies. I'd like to add another thing: in between my first reply to Callistra and her second reply to me, I added another dose of the Bettafix (so this was before it was recommended to discontinue the Bettafix). So there's approximately one teaspoon of Bettafix in the 1 gallon tank over an approximate 24 hour period (I began the Bettafix last night).

Everything is closed where I am right now so I don't have access to the Prime. I do, however, have a half gallon of the RO water left. Since, the Bettafix can cause difficulty breathing, I was thinking of doing a 50% water change right now with the half gallon of leftover RO water that I have so that I can remove at least some of the Bettafix.

Do you guys recommend this at this time, or should I wait until tomorrow when I can begin gathering the supplies?

Thank you, thank you.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If your betta is exhibiting signs of stress you might do the change, however if he seems fine I'd just wait until tomorrow. Bettafix is not as harmful in my experience since it is such a diluted like 1/5th dose form of Melafix (which is harmful and I have seen fish showing real issues with it), but it just doesn't really fix much of anything either.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Okay, I'll just sit tight for now and keep an eye on him to see if I notice any changes.



> Make sure when you acclimate from RO to tap you do so VERY slowly. I would do it over 2 hours or more where you add just a tablespoon of new water into the cup every 10minutes and then when it gets too full take a bunch out and start over.


I want to make sure I fully understand this. Before I start doing anything to the tank, I'm first going to scoop my Betta into a Solo cup using the existing water that's in the tank. He will remain in the cup while I do a 50% water change in the tank and wash the gravel and plants (I'll leave out the ones with the needle-like leaves).

Then, when the water has been replaced, treated with conditioner and heated to the correct temperature, I will float the cup in the water, adding 1 teaspoon of water every 10 minutes over a two hour period. When the cup is full, do I pour most of that water back in the tank and begin filling the cup up again at the same rate for a total of 4 hours?


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

I think I misunderstood. The entire acclimation period should take 2 hours. But the other question remains: when the cup is full, do I pour that water back in the tank and restart?


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

From what I see, your replacement of the gravel wiped out the bacteria that were living in there that handled the nitrogen cycle in your tank. That's where most bacteria live. 

They turn the ammonia your fish's waste produces (super toxic) into nitrite, a harmful byproduct, but another strain of bacteria takes this nitrite and turns it into nitrate, a much less harmful byproduct that won't make him sick unless you neglect water changes for months at a time (in your 1g's case, weeks). You then remove the nitrate from his tank with water changes to keep him healthy. This also replaces valuable minerals and nutrients.

When you took all these bacteria out with the old gravel, the ammonia level in your tank probably skyrocketed with no bacteria to process it. The lethargy and color loss is the most common symptom of ammonia poisoning. 

Usually, it takes a few weeks for your tank to recycle from scratch. Some stores sell the bacteria in bottles (Tetra Safestart is one such bacteria, doesn't require reusing, just dump them in once and cycling is sped up considerably), but in my experience that's expensive, and you can achieve the same result with frequent water changes to remove excess ammonia and nitrite while the bacteria regrow. If you purchase a testing kit, you can watch it happen. 

I definitely agree with Callistra's suggestions to handle the problem now, and the changes to your care regimen, though I personally think cycling is incredibly important, as it's something that happens in nature, and in putting these fish in tanks, you want to try to reproduce their natural habitat the best you can so they can live long, healthy lives. It's not expensive, it doesn't have to cost you a dime if you're patient, it just happens over time and is something to keep in mind.

And yes, it looks like he said start over once the cup is full.


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

Azurelove, the thing is, dougan has a 1 gallon tank with no filter. You can't keep a cycle in such a small tank. The only thing to keep ammonia in check in such a small tank is frequent 100% water changes.

Once the cup is full, pour most of the water out and restart. Good luck with your boy!


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

The fish was fine for two years, then he changed the gravel bed and it got ammonia poisoning. Sounds like a cycle existed despite its small size. If he never touched the gravel when doing the water changes, it makes sense. 

Just because it's a 1g doesn't mean it can't grow a cycle. It's hard, but with water changes as infrequently as he was doing them before, it gave the bacteria a chance to grow and adapt themselves to the ammonia and nitrite levels the fish was producing. 

I hope he's doing better today, dougal.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

dougan, yes. If the cup gets full, pour out some of the water and continue adding new water.


1g is way too small to build hardly any of a bb supply even with a filter. Sorry Azurelove I totally disagree but there is absolutely no way a 1 gallon bowl with no filter breeds any notable amount of good bacteria. Doesn't work that way.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

I'd like to hear why, but I don't think this is the place ;D Don't wanna go hijacking this guy's thread. 

I stand by what I said, all the same.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

*Update*

Update:

I've done a full water change. I rinsed all the gravel and plants off very thoroughly.

Right now my fish is in a Solo cup with just a little bit of the original tank water and some Omega One Betta Buffet food flakes.

I'm testing the heater out in another 1 gallon tank. It is working, but very slowly. They didn't have the kind that Callistra recommended, so I got the Aqueon, 10 watt.

I've tested the pH of my water and it is ABOVE 7.6 (see photo).

I tested the pH of the purified drinking water that I've been using (straight from the jug) and it's BELOW 6.0 (see photo).

The instructions for the pH tester say that those ends will only register if the pH is on the extreme end of those, meaning above 7.6 if the blue color, or below 6.0 if the yellow color.

I'm on my way back to Petsmart to get pH Down. Has anyone used this? Anything I should be aware of before I put it in the water?

Now for the Prime:

Would you mind checking my math for me (see photo)?

The instructions say to use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL.

I have a 1 gallon tank, so here's how I've done the math:

Line 1: I've used a ratio to calculate the dose for my 1 gallon tank. 5 mL/200L, where 200L = 50 gallons.

Line 2: Conversion factor, gallons to liters.

Line 3: Left side of ratio is 5mL/189.27L. I got the 189.27 L by multiplying 50 gallons by the 3.79 L conversion factor from Line 2. The right side is x/3.79L, where x is the amount that I'll need for my 1 gallon tank.

Line 4: Cross multiplied.

Line 5: Solve for x, where x is approximately 0.100 mL.

Do you agree with my math? Also, 0.100 mL is going to be very hard to measure using the cap. Since the first thread is 1 mL, I'll need 1/10 of that, which is basically just a drop. Does that sound right to you guys/ladies?

Okay, I'm off to Petsmart. I'll be back in about 30 minutes to continue on.

Thank you.


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

You don't need pH down. He will do fine in a pH of 7.6 as long as you acclimate him properly. My boy is in a pH of 8.0-8.2 and he's just fine. Using pH altering products might make the pH fluctuate from time to time which is much worse than just having him get used to the new 7.6 water and keeping it at around 7.6. 

For prime, 2 drops/gallon is the rule that I usually go by since it's hard to measure out such a small amount of Prime. And your calculations are correct!


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I am guessing at this point the extreme acidic ph of your water with no minerals is causing his problem. So when you get him in the tap you will improve him. I'm actually surprised he's surviving as well as he is considering. 

It's important not to use the ph down. It only temporarily decreases the ph and you will be left with lots of swings, which are stressful and can even be lethal. Bettas can adjust to a wide arrange of ph, so that's fine it's high.. except it seems to be off the chart? So you would need a high ph test kit to see how high it goes. If it goes really high you can cut it 50/50 with the tap. It will be extremely important at that point though to mix it up EXACTLY the same each time (measure exact) and premix it before you betta ever sees this water.

Since you are dealing with such a HUGE ph shift I would acclimate slowly for an hour - like a tablespoon every 10-15min, give him an hour off and go again a second hour. Whatever the ph is at this point I would leave him and go again tomorrow.

You use 2 drops per gallon on prime. The smallest containers have a dropper cap. If yours does not you can use a clean eyedropper dedicated just to him.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

*Update*

Everyone,

I'm back. I came home, saw your messages and left again to go get an eye dropper.

The photos show my current setup on how I'm acclimating him. He's actually been in there now for about and hour (the tank, that is. He's been in the cup for 4 hours now, with those flakes from earlier. I'm a little worried the flakes will start to cause more harm by just being in there).

I just added two drops of the Prime about 10 minutes ago (5:10 MT time). How long should I allow the Prime to remain in the water before I begin putting it in the cup? Should I put the air stone in to help the solution mix?

And once more (sorry to harp on this), but when the cup is full, do I pour the water back into the tank, or get rid of it completely when I "start over"?

Also, I have not used the pH down and will not at this point. I will have to go and see if I can find the high pH tester either later tonight or tomorrow. I also bought an ammonia tester.

The current temperature is 74 degrees Fahrenheit.

Thanks, everyone. I will continue to update.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

callistra said:


> I am guessing at this point the extreme acidic ph of your water with no minerals is causing his problem. So when you get him in the tap you will improve him.


Curious. I would think that the water he's been using for two years would've caused a problem long before now. I'm not saying it was healthy, but if the acidic pH was really an issue, I'd think he'd have seen problems as soon as a month after purchasing the fish. I've often heard that bettas prefer an acidic pH if anything, though as Majestic pointed out, they adapt to a wide variety of pH ranges. 

To Dougan: When dumping the water, I'd try to get rid of the flakes. In a small volume of water like that, they'll dirty it up quick. I can't say I'm familiar with the process Callistra and Majestic are walking you through on acclimation, so I would wait for their responses on your next step, keeping in mind the bit about the flakes. 

Also, is your heater adjustable? I'd imagine not, but was just curious.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

> Curious. I would think that the water he's been using for two years would've caused a problem long before now. I'm not saying it was healthy, but if the acidic pH was really an issue, I'd think he'd have seen problems as soon as a month after purchasing the fish. I've often heard that bettas prefer an acidic pH if anything, though as Majestic pointed out, they adapt to a wide variety of pH ranges.


That's what has me confused about all this too.

No, my heater is not adjustable. They were out of Marineland heaters. The girl at Petsmart told me that Marineland was having an issue with their heaters and so they discontinued them while they work on the issue. I haven't had time to verify this today, so for now I've got to take her word for it. And they didn't have Jager, either.

The instructions on the heater don't even say what temperature it heats the water to, but right now the thermometer is reading 76 degrees Fahrenheit. Most of the automatic heaters they have are advertised as heating the water to 78 degrees Fahrenheit, but they were too big for my aquarium; same with the adjustables. The Aqueon is taking a really long time to heat the water, but maybe that's better for my fish at this point.

I've been adding approximately 1 tablespoon of the tank water into the cup water every hour and will continue to do so until the water is about to touch the clothespins.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

dougan said:


> No, my heater is not adjustable. They were out of Marineland heaters. The girl at Petsmart told me that Marineland was having an issue with their heaters and so they discontinued them while they work on the issue. I haven't had time to verify this today, so for now I've got to take her word for it. And they didn't have Jager, either.
> 
> The instructions on the heater don't even say what temperature it heats the water to, but right now the thermometer is reading 76 degrees Fahrenheit. Most of the automatic heaters they have are advertised as heating the water to 78 degrees Fahrenheit, but they were too big for my aquarium; same with the adjustables. The Aqueon is taking a really long time to heat the water, but maybe that's better for my fish at this point.
> 
> I've been adding approximately 1 tablespoon of the tank water into the cup water every hour and will continue to do so until the water is about to touch the clothespins.


76 isn't bad at all, it's a good temp for normal conditions. I asked because when my fish are ill my first instinct is to slowly raise it to 80 (85 for ich infections), which will be very difficult in a 1g. Bettas love warm water and can usually survive at 80 perfectly fine, though that's the very upper end of comfortable for them. I don't usually go above 78 or below 75 for normal conditions. You'll find they're a lot more active in warmer water, too. 

I agree that it's good it takes so long to heat. As Callistra recommended in my thread, no more than 1 degree per hour and no more than 5 degrees per day is ideal. 

I don't like Marineland heaters myself. Mine I got with my 10g's package deal actually began to rust within a month of normal operation! x.x I got rid of that as soon as I saw it and got an Aqueon Pro. Tetra heaters are iffy too, in my experience; they die fairly frequently and have terrible reviews. I went through two before I got one that's still working now. (The pet store I had at the time only carried that brand, silly-heads.)


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Older bettas can't tolerate bad conditions like younger ones can. It may just be catching up to him. there may have also been a change in the water the op was unaware of.

I'm unaware of the Marineland issue and I own several without issues so IDK. Marineland does make various heaters though and I only use Visitherm.


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

If he hasn't eaten the flakes, remove them. I highly recommend getting a turkey baster for that (they should sell them at a dollar store). Just suck out the flakes and remove them. What I do, is when the cup is full, I get RID of most of the water and then repeat (slowly add more tank water in over time).

Adding the Prime treated water after 5-10 minutes should be fine.

I recommend the water to be around 78-79F. 76F is the minimum temperature while 82F is the maximum. As Azure said, they'll be more active at higher temperatures.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

I didn't have a Visitherm, if you're not having any issues, that's great. Rust on the first one kind of scared me off from them for a while, but if I need another one (probably to replace the Tetra when it dies on me xD) I'll look into a Visitherm. 

78-80 seems to be the general consensus, if you can find a better heater than that one, that'd be best for the future. Online stores have some pretty great heater deals. For now, at least he has one. 1g's are very difficult to find good heaters for that won't chill your betta or boil it alive. :\

Truthfully, all in all, 5g isn't much in terms of size difference, they're not terribly expensive, and you can get filtration and good heaters for it. Heck, if you can get a better deal on a 10g, get it. He'll not only be happier, but he'll thrive with all that space. People who tell you bettas hate large spaces are full of it. As long as you stuff it with lots of hiding places for him, plants and NON Penn-Plax ornaments (see Call's sig), he'll be very happy. My 10g was a boxed deal with heater, filter, and gravel for $40 (even though I had to sink another $20 into a good heater when that one rusted, it was worth it to keep my fish from dying). 

You sound like you really want to make him happy. Upgrading would not only do this, but it'll put less strain on you for water changes since you could just use a simple little siphon to vacuum his poop up out of the gravel, which pulls water out too, I just run the hose down to the floor into my "dirty-water" bucket, refill with treated water from my "clean-water" bucket, and you can cycle it properly to help prevent ammonia buildup in the future.

I hope I'm not upsetting anyone by vouching for this >.>;


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

majesticstorm said:


> What I do, is when the cup is full, I get RID of most of the water and then repeat (slowly add more tank water in over time).


Okay, I'll do this. I filled the tank up almost completely (allowing room for displacement when I put the cup in), and then I put the Prime in. I've been putting water from the tank and into the cup, so it seems like I'm throwing out Prime-treated water. Forgive me if I'm wrong and I'm missing something.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

*Quick update*

Just a quick reply:

You guys have all been extremely helpful. I know so much more now because of you guys/ladies.

I totally misread the instructions and I haven't been putting water from the tank into the cup at the correct 10-15 minute intervals. I've been doing it per _hour_ :-oops:. I'm doing a tablespoon every 10 minutes now.

So with that, what I'd like to do is address some specific things that many of you have mentioned and then repost in a few minutes. But I wanted to let you all know that I'm still working on this and I appreciate the help that you've provided. I appreciate your dedication.

Okay, I'll be back in about 30-45 minutes while I review the previous posts.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Oh, and the temperature is now at 80 F.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If at any time you betta appears to clamp or lose color stop and wait until they stop. You can't do this too slow


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

Nope, you're getting it right. Hm..I guess it isn't as noticeable about the water loss with larger tanks, but it is with a 1gal. Maybe get a half gallon of tap and add a drop of Prime in there so that you have water to put back into the tank, just make sure that the water temperature's relatively the same. 

How long have you been acclimating him? I would think that it would be ok for him to go into tank by now if you've been doing it since 4pm today.

Edit: Ah, just saw the other posts that have been added since my post, and know why he's still not in the tank.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

According to this thermometer, water temperature is pushing 82 F. That's making me a bit nervous.

Please excuse my vase/pump setup in the back.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I hope you are only testing this heater and have not just plugged it in with him in there..


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

I tested the heater earlier today for a couple of hours in a different and completely empty tank.

When I left to get more supplies, I put this heater in this (his) tank, but left him in the cup outside of the tank.

When I got back around 4:30 PM MT, I then placed the cup containing him into the tank and rigged it with the clothespins. And he's been in there since.

Oh man, I messed this up too. The reason I did this is because I thought that you said I could float him in the cup to acclimate the temp, or do the 1 degree per hour, but no more than 5 degrees per day. But the heater isn't adjustable.

What should I do?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You've got a two fold problem. The first is that you didn't thoroughly test the heater.. new heaters should get a 24 hour test in similar size container. So we really have no idea how hot it's going to get.

The second is that you aren't acclimating him to the higher temp slowly enough.. no more than a degree per hour or 5 degrees per day or float in already _fully preheated_ tank for an hour.. It isn't preheated yet.. so...

Hopefully the heater shuts off soon.. I think at this point I would just watch it really really carefully because taking him out and letting the water drop again is just going to cause more stress.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

82 is, as said earlier, the very highest you should go, though I wouldn't personally keep that temp for longer than a week unless treating ich. Where are the thermometer and heater in relation to depth in the tank?

EDIT: Deleted the testing bit, you already did this earlier it seems in another tank xD Not to the extent it should've been done, but Callistra covered that and the main tank already needing heating before you floated him.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks, Callistra. The heater is supposed to shut off automatically, but if it doesn't, and I find that the water temperature has surpassed 82 F, how should I proceed?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Some heaters are busted to always on and never turn off so they just keep heating and heating and heating.. so hopefully it's done soon. If it gets any higher you need a new heater asap tomorrow

Nah when treating ick you need to keep it 86-88 for a minimum of 2 weeks and at least a week past the last sign of ich. Plenty of people do it 3-4 weeks.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

callistra said:


> Some heaters are busted to always on and never turn off so they just keep heating and heating and heating.. so hopefully it's done soon. If it gets any higher you need a new heater asap tomorrow
> 
> Nah when treating ick you need to keep it 86-88 for a minimum of 2 weeks and at least a week past the last sign of ich. Plenty of people do it 3-4 weeks.


Good to know, I'll keep that in mind for my guy. My first betta I think I had the heat like that for two weeks and it was completely gone. As I said, I only keep it that high for a prolonged period when treating ich, but not really for any other reason.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Azurelove said:


> 82 is, as said earlier, the very highest you should go, though I wouldn't personally keep that temp for longer than a week unless treating ich. Where are the thermometer and heater in relation to depth in the tank?
> 
> EDIT: Deleted the testing bit, you already did this earlier it seems in another tank xD Not to the extent it should've been done, but Callistra covered that and the main tank already needing heating before you floated him.


I measured the outside of the tank lengthwise this morning and measured approximately 8", but minus 1" due to the glass gravel at the bottom. The bottom of the heater seems to be about 2" above the gravel line, and the top of the heater is about 1.5" from the top of the tank.

The thermometer is on a different wall. I have it basically all the way down to the gravel level, and the top of the thermometer is about 1.5" from the top of the tank.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

How should 82 F water feel to the touch? I just placed some in the palm of my hand and it feels cool to lukewarm.

The temperature on the thermometer is hovering just above the 82 F mark, but not far enough to be 83 F.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It will feel about the same temperature as the inside of your wrist, or slightly cooler.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Then maybe the thermometer isn't completely accurate because the water felt a little cooler than that.

I continued to monitor the thermometer after my last post and the temperature eventually reached 83 F and showed no signs of stopping. I looked up reviews of the heater on Amazon and it has received many unfavorable reviews where many of the reviewers state that their heater continued to heat the water; one user claims up to 90 F.

So I unplugged the heater for about 35 minutes and when the thermometer read 82 F, I plugged it back in. I set my cell phone to wake me up every 30 minutes so I could check on the thermometer and continue to add water from the tank and into the cup. Right now the thermometer is reading about 81 F.

So I'm going to get another heater. The problem is I already know what they have at my local Petsmart and none of them will fit my 1 gallon tank, so I'm going to have to overnight one from Amazon, but I think that both the Marineland Visitherm and the Jager probably won't fit either. The Petsmart did have one from Fluval that's not adjustable, but may fit my tank at an angle.

I still need to buy a bigger tank, but when I research those, some users are unhappy with them because as I said earlier, apparently some filters can suck up the fish. If I get a 2 gallon or a 5 gallon, is it safe to not use the filter to avoid this? Also, the bigger tanks seem to be taller, and I am trying to avoid making my fish in his current condition swim and struggle even more to the top of a taller tank.

I poured the water of the Solo cup out and began refilling it. The flakes wouldn't come out and I've since tried to get them out with a spoon, but they keep fluttering away and I feel like I'm disturbing him too much. He has pooped a couple of times and I did manage to get those out of the cup.

Around the time of my last post, his breathing seemed labored and fast. Now not so much. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, and I'm a little stressed that he's getting stressed by being in the cup for such a long time (4:30 PM MT today will be 24 hours). But I'm too worried to drop him in the current tank because of the uncertainty of the heater.

My thoughts are this: I need to overnight I heater from Amazon and either overnight a new tank (despite some of the bad reviews) or just buy one from Petsmart (despite those same bad reviews). I need to wash that aquarium and then set it up for him to live in. But again, I'm worried about him having to swim further to the top, in addition to needing another 24 hours to properly test the new heater (sorry about that, Callistra).

Any thoughts? I guess I could get a new tank and only fill it partially to the top, that way he won't have to swim to the top while he's healing. But how long can I safely keep him in the current setup (floating him in the Solo cup)?

Also, Callistra, I only have a bird's eye view of him since he's in the cup, so I can't really determine any color change or fin clamping. But he's at the bottom and his gills are slowly moving.

Thank you all again.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It should be accurate within a couple of degrees. Your inside wrist is more sensitive. Your fingers will feel different, and touch isn't a good accurate measure anyway. I would trust the thermometer.

1 gallon is too small anyway so it seems now is a good time to upgrade. a 25w adjustable heater can be used in a 2g-5g and a 5g can also accommodate a 50w

Petco and Petsmart sell standard rectangular 2g and 5g glass Aqueon (or other brand) tanks and you can use those without a filter. I would however suggest placing a small air stone (use airline valves to turn bubbles into a light mist) under the heater to distribute the heat or you will have hot/cold spots. You can buy a glass lid for them too or even use cellophane over the top and leave a slit in the side or back for air to get in and out.

I think he's okay in the cup, just make sure you are doing twice daily 100% water changes and I would use prime as your conditioner. Because ammonia builds super quick in the cups.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Okay, I filled an extra 1 gallon tank with tap water and treated it with 2 drops of Prime and let it sit for 15 minutes.

I then removed the floating cup he's currently in from the current tank and halfway filled a new Solo cup with the current tank water.

I poured as much of his old cup water out and poured him into the new cup (with the flakes. I'll see if I can find that turkey baster that Majesticstorm mentioned).

He's now floating in the tank in his new Solo cup and I made up the difference in water level with the Prime-treated water from the extra tank (the water level was below the minimum required for the heater).

I will be on my way to Petsmart to get one of those standard fish tanks you mentioned, Callistra. Also, the only valves I saw yesterday are gang values and a type of T-valve (looked like brass) that splits a line into two different directions. I'll look again for the airline valves, though.

Other than a very small Pet's Barn that I did go to yesterday, we don't have anything other than Petsmart, so I may have to overnight the heater.

Okay, then. I will update as things happen.

Thanks so much for your patience.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Airline t valves yeah, some may be metal.. all of mine have been plastic. http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/mc_images/category/200/airflow_copy.jpg I actually use two per line, one close to the filter and one further down. One I close off all the way and the other I adjust to allow just a mist. I like Kordon Mist Air stones best, but I've used Elite too and also some blue bubble wands by marineland and I really love the wands.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

*Update*

Update:

I went and got a 5 gallon tank from Petsmart (see photo). They only had 2.5 gallon basic aquariums, not 5 gallon basic tanks. Although the person that was helping me did show me some 5 gallon terrariums, but the covers were such that they wouldn't accommodate the power cords of the heater and air pump without modification, so I bought the Marineland tank. It came with a filter, but I'm wondering if I can go ahead and forego its use.

They don't have the airline valves, but they did have an airstone that makes fine bubbles. Will that work as well as airline valves? I still need to go back for some more vinyl tubing.

I went ahead and got a Top Fin heater. Reviews are not great, but I wanted to get started on heating the new water and testing the heater. As I'm writing this, the thermometer in the 5 gallon tank is reading just over 74 F. I'm not sure whether I have the heater set to 75 F or 79 F because of the markings on the heater. The squares up to 75 F or filled solid red and there's a red diagonal line on 79 F.

I also did an ammonia test on his cup water. I'm not sure if you can tell from the picture, but the ammonia at the time registered at 0.5 ppm, so I went ahead and did a 100% water change (with the water in the tank that I'm using to float him).

I then did an ammonia test on the water in the tank. It looked to me like it registered between 0 ppm and 0.25 ppm. So that's the water he now has in his cup.

And I took a couple of current photos of him. In one, he was coming up for some air, and in the next, he goes back down to the bottom of the cup and that's where he spends most of his time. His gills are still pale.

One other thing to note is that I saw him appear to yawn or gasp when he was in the 0.5 ppm water. I only saw it once, but I'm not staring at him continously.

So that's where we're at right now. I really hope he makes it.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

Dougan,

Awesome job on the tank. I actually use two of those myself for my bettas Azure and Carnage. One warning, though, I'd actually find something to cover that opening up in the front, one of my fish actually jumped out of that overnight once and died v.v 

Instead of getting rid of the tank, though, I used the lid from the new fish's betta cup (I had to decide whether to scrap the tank or save it quickly before the bacteria died) and placed a 1-pound container (my kH booster, go figure) on the lid. It leaves a small gap that I can drop food into and covers up the opening so that my fish can't jump out of it. 

I have that heater for my fish Axel at the moment too, it's done very well for me for almost two years, though I know how heaters can really be hit and miss (ex: me and the Marineland xD)

The airstone is perfect, you don't always need a filter for bettas, especially in smaller tanks, but aeration is always a plus. 

Make sure you get him plenty of gravel to make a nice one-to-two-inch bed in the bottom. Lots of silk/cloth plants and ornaments are good as well so he'll have lots of hiding places.

I'm very happy you decided to upgrade. I think the little guy will be, too :3

EDIT: Also! If you see that the temperature in the tank isn't quite reaching what you set it to, I'd take the heater and turn it horizontally and place it close to the bottom. Sometimes, the thermometer's closer to the top in some heaters and the heat it produces rises, which the thermometer reads only in the top section and decides the tank is heated enough and turns off, while the bottom is still cold.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Azurelove said:


> One warning, though, I'd actually find something to cover that opening up in the front, one of my fish actually jumped out of that overnight once and died v.v


I'm really sorry about your fish. When I bought this, I hadn't considered that. Which is weird because when I looked at some of the other tanks that were pictured without a lid on the box, I thought to myself, "No way, he might jump out".

Do you cover up the back opening, as well?



Azurelove said:


> Instead of getting rid of the tank, though, I used the lid from the new fish's betta cup (I had to decide whether to scrap the tank or save it quickly before the bacteria died) and placed a 1-pound container (my kH booster, go figure) on the lid. It leaves a small gap that I can drop food into and covers up the opening so that my fish can't jump out of it.


I think I'm visualizing this correctly, but I'm not sure. Would it be too much to ask to upload a photo? And what do you mean by saving the tank quickly before the bacteria died?



Azurelove said:


> I have that heater for my fish Axel at the moment too, it's done very well for me for almost two years, though I know how heaters can really be hit and miss (ex: me and the Marineland xD)


I really have to watch the little 10W heater that I'm using to keep him warm right now in the 1 gallon tank. The thermometer starts to read what looks like a solid 83 F. Last night I set my cell phone to wake me every 30 minutes so I could get up and check on it. It seems to fluctuate between 83 F and just about the 82 F mark. I've been in a bit of a panic mode since this whole thing started and I got really worried yesterday when I realized I had not followed Callistra's instructions on heat acclimation properly.



Azurelove said:


> Make sure you get him plenty of gravel to make a nice one-to-two-inch bed in the bottom. Lots of silk/cloth plants and ornaments are good as well so he'll have lots of hiding places.


I think I may stick to the glass gravel so I don't have to worry about chemical changes due to gravel. The problem is I'm going to need a lot more of it for this new tank. In addition, I've seen his fins get wedged in between the glass gravel a few times and he struggled to get out.

Also, if I switch his food to the pellets (right now I'm using the Omega flakes) those pellets that he misses are probably going to be inaccessible to him once they sink to the glass gravel.

What kind of gravel do you use?



Azurelove said:


> EDIT: Also! If you see that the temperature in the tank isn't quite reaching what you set it to, I'd take the heater and turn it horizontally and place it close to the bottom. Sometimes, the thermometer's closer to the top in some heaters and the heat it produces rises, which the thermometer reads only in the top section and decides the tank is heated enough and turns off, while the bottom is still cold.


I was thinking that I may reduce the water level by 1/3 - 2/3 when I introduce him to the new tank and have to do this regardless, because I don't want to make him have to struggle an even further distance to the top while he's still healing.

Which brings up another question as to when I should introduce him to the new tank, when he's fully recovered, or once I see the new heater is maintaining temperature properly in the new tank?

Thank you for that tip, by the way.



Azurelove said:


> I'm very happy you decided to upgrade. I think the little guy will be, too :3


Thank you very much. I feel like I owe it to this little guy. This is probably going to sound silly, but my heart breaks when I look at him and I see how uncomfortable he is. And I worry he won't make it.

Right now, he's totally just staying at the bottom of the cup. Just earlier today, if I moved it a little he would come up for air and go back down. But now he's just hanging out at the bottom and when he does swim, it's along the bottom to another side of the cup.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Callistra, I was just looking at another post where you asked the poster (Azurelove, I think) the color of the fish's poop.

Earlier today I mentioned that last night (early morning hours) my fish had pooped, but I failed to mention that they were like three tiny black pieces. It occurs to me now that that may have been blood in the poop.

He hasn't eaten at all today and he hasn't pooped either.

Earlier today if I moved the cup even slightly, he would come to the top for air. He isn't coming up anymore. When he swims, he just kind of swims along the bottom of the cup to another position.

His gill movement is the same.

Might he have internal bleeding?

I'm also about to perform another 100% cup water change.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Also, am I understanding you correctly that you must retreat Prime-treated water every 48 hours?

Thank you.


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

Nope, you don't. The chlorine/metals are all gone. Prime converts ammonia to something less toxic for 48 hrs (if you have any in your tap), giving your filter (if you have one) time to get rid of it.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

I'm not currently using a filter. Does that change your answer?


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

Nope, it doesn't. It's main job is to get rid of chlorines and metals, it isn't a substitution for water changes. And I BELIEVE you can overdose on Prime, which I guess isn't good...

I don't have a filter either, but I do frequent water changes in my 5gal (even more so since my boy is a tailbiter).


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Okay, so I guess in my case (with no filter), the ammonia stays as something less toxic. But since I don't have a filter, that less toxic substance will still be present in the water. Is that right?

The reason I asked this is because this morning I treated 1 gallon of water with 2 drops of the Prime and I'm using it to replenish the water in the tank that I'm using to float my betta (in a Solo cup). That tank water was treated yesterday with Prime, as well, but my fish hasn't been in it directly. He's been in his cup.

I hope I explained that clearly.

Thank you.


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

No, after 48 hrs, the less toxic stuff converts back to ammonia (the toxic stuff). But if your tap doesn't contain ammonia, I wouldn't worry TOO much about it. Ammonia should stay at a safe level with frequent water changes in a 5 gal tank (1-2 times a week) and shouldn't build up as quickly as say, your previous 1 gal tank (ammonia builds up REAL quickly in smaller volumes of water).


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Hmm, well I'm not yet using the 5 gallon tank. I'm still on my 24 hour test of the heater. And I don't know if I want to put him in there with all 5 gallons before he's ready because he was struggling to get to the top of the 1 gallon.

I'm going to go test the tap for ammonia right now to see what I get. I'll report back here when I get the results.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Okay, I tested the tap, as well as the water that is in the tank that I'm floating him in. It appears that both are free from ammonia.

However, he has the S-shape now that some other posters have mentioned of their fish.


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## Fishybitty (Dec 29, 2012)

dougan said:


> Update:
> I went ahead and got a Top Fin heater. Reviews are not great, but I wanted to get started on heating the new water and testing the heater. As I'm writing this, the thermometer in the 5 gallon tank is reading just over 74 F. I'm not sure whether I have the heater set to 75 F or 79 F because of the markings on the heater. The squares up to 75 F or filled solid red and there's a red diagonal line on 79 F.


I have this heater, it is complicated and the instructions are terrible.

I have mine in a 10gallon, I have it set to 82 degrees and mines at a steady 80. I would say test it and just be careful to watch it.

(being set at 80 the square is filled in and the half line is at 85)


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Here is a photo I just took of him. I put the Omega One flakes in the cup about 30 minutes ago, and as far as I can tell he has not come up for any of them.

I noticed yesterday afternoon that he wouldn't come up for air when I would make adjustments to the cup, and that's still the case.

It would appear that he is not improving (maybe even getting worse). What is the guideline on the length of time before I should see improvement?

I'm going to the leave the flakes in for another 45 minutes to an hour before I do another full water change in his cup.

The last time he pooped was on Sunday. I mentioned earlier that the poop was black. He hasn't eaten or pooped since then.

There also seem to be moments when his side fins are out and slightly moving, and then other times when they're close to his body. I'm not sure if that's relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.

Am I doing anything wrong that you guys/ladies can see?

Thank you.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

dougan said:


> I'm really sorry about your fish. Do you cover up the back opening, as well?


I don't need to since the filter I have fits into this opening. I would in your case since you don't have one. It's ok, I cried when it happened but I'm over it now, I felt terrible. 



dougan said:


> I think I'm visualizing this correctly, but I'm not sure. Would it be too much to ask to upload a photo? And what do you mean by saving the tank quickly before the bacteria died?


Unfortunately, I don't have a camera or I would. Basically, the lid is covering the opening, weighed down by my container in the event that the fish's jump has enough force to knock the lid off, but I've made it so I still have a little gap I can drop food into by shifting it a bit to the side. EDIT: I meant saving the tank since without a source of ammonia (fish waste), the bacteria that consume it and turn it into nitrite would die and I would have to recycle it from scratch should I decide to get another fish. 



dougan said:


> Also, if I switch his food to the pellets (right now I'm using the Omega flakes) those pellets that he misses are probably going to be inaccessible to him once they sink to the glass gravel.


It's very rare that a betta will eat off the bottom, regardless. I've only ever heard of two that did. That's why it's important to remove uneaten food quickly, since it'll just sink and sit at the bottom and generate ammonia. If my bettas don't eat the food within five minutes, I take it out, though I haven't had an issue with a betta not eating for a long time until my little guy started having problems recently.



dougan said:


> What kind of gravel do you use?


Normal TopFin gravel I get in a bag from the pet store. I run it through a strainer under some hot water to remove the dust and chemicals that might've settled on it during shipping. 



dougan said:


> I was thinking that I may reduce the water level by 1/3 - 2/3 when I introduce him to the new tank and have to do this regardless, because I don't want to make him have to struggle an even further distance to the top while he's still healing.
> 
> Which brings up another question as to when I should introduce him to the new tank, when he's fully recovered, or once I see the new heater is maintaining temperature properly in the new tank?
> 
> Thank you for that tip, by the way.


You're welcome. As for the introduction... it's difficult. With him in that cup, it'll be difficult to continue treating him, I think. Your tank should cycle before putting him in there, else he'll be subject to ammonia and nitrite spikes before the cycling is complete unless you are superbly on top of your water changes. 



dougan said:


> Thank you very much. I feel like I owe it to this little guy. This is probably going to sound silly, but my heart breaks when I look at him and I see how uncomfortable he is. And I worry he won't make it.
> 
> Right now, he's totally just staying at the bottom of the cup. Just earlier today, if I moved it a little he would come up for air and go back down. But now he's just hanging out at the bottom and when he does swim, it's along the bottom to another side of the cup.


Mine was like that for the last few days in his little breeder tank, and I'm sad to say he passed this afternoon.  I'm pretty sure it was fish tuberculosis with the rapid death, he just got sick on Saturday (or at least, that's when I saw his spine contort, he was fine before then). I'm still waiting to see what Callistra says in response to it. 

I wish I had more to offer you right now, but I'm a bit upset about my guy. I wanted to answer the questions you'd asked me before, though.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Azurelove said:


> You're welcome. As for the introduction... it's difficult. With him in that cup, it'll be difficult to continue treating him, I think. Your tank should cycle before putting him in there, else he'll be subject to ammonia and nitrite spikes before the cycling is complete unless you are superbly on top of your water changes.


I've had to really choreograph the way I treat him: take his cup out of the 1 gallon tank, fill a new cup with treated water from his float tank, pour him into the new cup, put that cup back into the 1 gallon tank, and then add treated water from another 1 gallon tank to make up for the water difference. And then watch...

My hands are so dry right now because I've been washing them so much...I don't want to risk contaminating his water, but it's not perfect.

As far as the 5 gallon tank goes, all I've done is added the water, added the Prime, and have been testing the heater. But now I may dump that water out because while I was rinsing out the new tank outside, I can't remember if I pet my dog with my hand, which eventually made contact with the treated water in the tank when I was adjusting the heater : /

Would you mind explaining a little more on cycling?




Azurelove said:


> Mine was like that for the last few days in his little breeder tank, and I'm sad to say he passed this afternoon.  I'm pretty sure it was fish tuberculosis with the rapid death, he just got sick on Saturday (or at least, that's when I saw his spine contort, he was fine before then). I'm still waiting to see what Callistra says in response to it.
> 
> I wish I had more to offer you right now, but I'm a bit upset about my guy. I wanted to answer the questions you'd asked me before, though.


I was reading through your other thread about your fish when you replied. I'm wondering now if that may be the issue with mine. I just noticed his spine curve yesterday. Right now he's butted up against the cup in such a way that his spine is now curved the OTHER way, but it's taking the shape of the cup.

I'm really sorry about your fish. I'm really worried about mine and I think I know how you're feeling. If you don't feel up to answering my questions, I understand.

Oh, and thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions from last night even though you're feeling down.


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

dougan said:


> I've had to really choreograph the way I treat him: take his cup out of the 1 gallon tank, fill a new cup with treated water from his float tank, pour him into the new cup, put that cup back into the 1 gallon tank, and then add treated water from another 1 gallon tank to make up for the water difference. And then watch...


What are you treating him for? If you are still acclimating him to the new water, I don't see how are you acclimating him rather than just moving him from one cup to another with the same water (one would just have less ammonia). Personally I think that pouring him from one cup to another stresses him out even more. That's why I suggest the turkey baster. You would just suck out most of the water and then use the turkey baster to squirt fresh water into the same cup. This is probably the least stressful way of acclimating your fish to new water/ replacing old water with fresh water in a small container.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

dougan said:


> My hands are so dry right now because I've been washing them so much...I don't want to risk contaminating his water, but it's not perfect.


Perchance, have you been sticking your freshly-washed hands in his tank?



dougan said:


> Would you mind explaining a little more on cycling?


Cycling means the tank developing what's known in nature as the nitrogen cycle. With ammonia present in an aquatic environment (from food and waste), bacteria called _Nitrosomonas_ grow and consume the ammonia as food, nitrifying it and turning it into also-toxic nitrite. 

With nitrite present, another bacteria called _Nitrobacter_ take this toxic nitrite and consume it, turning it into less-harmful nitrate. In nature, live plants take this nitrate in as food, producing oxygen as a byproduct of their natural processes. 

This nitrate does not harm your fish in small quantities (ie: under 30ppm as measured with a testing kit), and your regular water changes remove it from the tank since you don't have plants. 

Plants are difficult to maintain perfectly within a tank. They need the right amount of light and food to stay healthy without becoming harmful to your fish (ie: too much light will stress your betta, adding fertilizers can be harmful to fish unless handled carefully, and if the plant dies from lack of food supply, bettas aren't the dirtiest of fish, it will compost into large amounts of ammonia unless removed immediately). 



dougan said:


> I was reading through your other thread about your fish when you replied. I'm wondering now if that may be the issue with mine. I just noticed his spine curve yesterday. Right now he's butted up against the cup in such a way that his spine is now curved the OTHER way, but it's taking the shape of the cup.
> 
> I'm really sorry about your fish. I'm really worried about mine and I think I know how you're feeling. If you don't feel up to answering my questions, I understand.


I don't know if I see any similarities between your fish's condition and mine other than lethargy and the spinal problem. Also, your fish got the spinal problem probably more from stress from its current illness than tuberculosis, whereas the spine was the first symptom of my fish's ailment.

I highly doubt it's the case, I'm sure your fish can be saved if we keep on it. I was hoping it was anything other than TB, but my increase in temp to try to hold off what Callistra and I thought was ich probably sped along the tuberculosis to the lethal stage, since it reacts well to heat.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

majesticstorm said:


> What are you treating him for? If you are still acclimating him to the new water, I don't see how are you acclimating him rather than just moving him from one cup to another with the same water (one would just have less ammonia).



I'm treating him for ammonia poisoning.


Originally the cup was used to acclimate. I'm keeping him in the cup because I noticed earlier today that when I reduced the water level in the cup, he came up for air. He wasn't last night when the water level was at about halfway up the cup. I do feel bad, though, that he's in such a small area and can't see out of the cup (it's red).

I'm not sure if the 5 gallon tank is ready. Above I mention that I'm worried that its water may need to be replaced. And I don't know if it has cycled. I need to read how that works.

In addition to that, he'll have a long way to travel to the top, unless I pour out most of it so the water level is low. Same situation with the 1 gallon tank.



majesticstorm said:


> Personally I think that pouring him from one cup to another stresses him out even more. That's why I suggest the turkey baster. You would just suck out most of the water and then use the turkey baster to squirt fresh water into the same cup. This is probably the least stressful way of acclimating your fish to new water/ replacing old water with fresh water in a small container.


That's right...okay, I'll use the turkey baster for his next water change. Thank you.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Azurelove said:


> Perchance, have you been sticking your freshly-washed hands in his tank?


I'm not submerging them at all. But my fingertips or a knuckle or something like that has made contact with the water when I'm putting the cup into the tank to fill it with water, which I will no longer do (turkey baster).

I did, however, submerge my hands into the 5 gallon yesterday when I was adjusting the heater and inserted the thermometer. And I can't remember if I washed them after I pet my dog while I was rinsing out the new tank after I took it out of the box : /

But, for my information, why do you ask?




Azurelove said:


> Cycling means the tank developing what's known in nature as the nitrogen cycle. With ammonia present in an aquatic environment (from food and waste), bacteria called _Nitrosomonas_ grow and consume the ammonia as food, nitrifying it and turning it into also-toxic nitrite.
> 
> With nitrite present, another bacteria called _Nitrobacter_ take this toxic nitrite and consume it, turning it into less-harmful nitrate. In nature, live plants take this nitrate in as food, producing oxygen as a byproduct of their natural processes.
> 
> ...


So then my 5 gallon won't really cycle if it's just sitting with water and Prime, correct? I tested my tap water last night for ammonia and it seemed to register closer to the yellow (0 ppm). Although I don't know about the stability of my tap, which you and Callistra were talking about in your other thread.


Some additional info:

He hasn't eaten since Sunday. I tried giving him some of the Omega One flakes, and he did go for them. But after a moment, he would spit them out.

So I thought maybe he just doesn't like the food. I then put in a bit of the Tetramin flakes that I had been feeding him. Same thing. I left the food in there for 10 minutes, but then changed the water.

He also hasn't pooped since Sunday (I think it was poop), and it was black.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

dougan said:


> I'm not submerging them at all. But my fingertips or a knuckle or something like that has made contact with the water when I'm putting the cup into the tank to fill it with water, which I will no longer do (turkey baster).
> 
> I did, however, submerge my hands into the 5 gallon yesterday when I was adjusting the heater and inserted the thermometer. And I can't remember if I washed them after I pet my dog while I was rinsing out the new tank after I took it out of the box : /
> 
> But, for my information, why do you ask?


Well, soap is extremely toxic to fish, which is why it's recommended never to wash a tank with soap or detergent. If you don't rinse your hands well enough, especially having a soap that has moisturizers or somesuch in it, the residue could get into the water when you touch it and hurt your fish. 



dougan said:


> So then my 5 gallon won't really cycle if it's just sitting with water and Prime, correct? I tested my tap water last night for ammonia and it seemed to register closer to the yellow (0 ppm). Although I don't know about the stability of my tap, which you and Callistra were talking about in your other thread.
> 
> Some additional info:
> 
> ...


You are correct in saying that. Most people cycle "fishless" using fish flakes as a source of ammonia. It takes a very long time, as I didn't necessarily mention before, silly me. The process can take up to 2 months to fully complete, with or without fish, which is why I recommended the Tetra Safestart, as it contains these strands of bacteria. As long as they have ammonia to feed on, they will grow quickly and shorten cycling time considerably. 

What people do is set up a tank, filter and heater, and run it, dropping flakes in the water and monitoring water parameters with a water testing kit. Ammonia will spike first, then as it lowers, nitrite will go up. When the ammonia and nitrite are zero and nitrate is on the rise, that means the tank has cycled. 

Flakes aren't necessarily the best diet, Callistra has recommended some good pellets to use when feeding. 

I'm honestly stumped about the lack of pooping. Is he bloating up? He doesn't appear to be in the pictures. I can only think of constipation, but his black poop worries me.

EDIT: Water stability is also measured with a testing kit. gH and kH are both parts of it, one being water "hardness", one being "alkalinity." If they are present in ideal amounts, the pH will remain the same. In my water's case, the stability is very low out of the tap. Even though the water starts at 7 when I put it in the tank after treating it, after a couple of days I'd see it plummet to 5 or less (my kit wouldn't test that low).


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Azurelove said:


> Well, soap is extremely toxic to fish, which is why it's recommended never to wash a tank with soap or detergent. If you don't rinse your hands well enough, especially having a soap that has moisturizers or somesuch in it, the residue could get into the water when you touch it and hurt your fish.


I try to wash and rinse my hands really well, but I guess there's no way of conveniently knowing what's left on my hands. I'll try and be even more careful to not allow the water to touch my hands at all, which means I'll be redoing the water in the 5 gallon tank just to be sure.



Azurelove said:


> You are correct in saying that. Most people cycle "fishless" using fish flakes as a source of ammonia. It takes a very long time, as I didn't necessarily mention before, silly me. The process can take up to 2 months to fully complete, with or without fish, which is why I recommended the Tetra Safestart, as it contains these strands of bacteria. As long as they have ammonia to feed on, they will grow quickly and shorten cycling time considerably.
> 
> What people do is set up a tank, filter and heater, and run it, dropping flakes in the water and monitoring water parameters with a water testing kit. Ammonia will spike first, then as it lowers, nitrite will go up. When the ammonia and nitrite are zero and nitrate is on the rise, that means the tank has cycled.


So this is why you say I'd have to really be on top of the water changes if I were to not use the flakes to induce the cycle. The bacteria wouldn't be present to handle the ammonia. But the ammonia from my tap is so low, it seems the bacteria wouldn't have anything to feed on.



Azurelove said:


> Flakes aren't necessarily the best diet, Callistra has recommended some good pellets to use when feeding.


I'll go get the pellets tomorrow.



Azurelove said:


> I'm honestly stumped about the lack of pooping. Is he bloating up? He doesn't appear to be in the pictures. I can only think of constipation, but his black poop worries me.


No bloating. Someone in another thread mentioned blood in the poop, which is why the light went on for me on that.




Azurelove said:


> EDIT: Water stability is also measured with a testing kit. gH and kH are both parts of it, one being water "hardness", one being "alkalinity." If they are present in ideal amounts, the pH will remain the same. In my water's case, the stability is very low out of the tap. Even though the water starts at 7 when I put it in the tank after treating it, after a couple of days I'd see it plummet to 5 or less (my kit wouldn't test that low).


And straight out of the faucet, my water is apparently way above 7.6 or something like that. Does the slow acclimation of 1 tablespoon every 10-15 minutes help at all with this, or should I start looking into something for gH and kH?


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

dougan said:


> I try to wash and rinse my hands really well, but I guess there's no way of conveniently knowing what's left on my hands. I'll try and be even more careful to not allow the water to touch my hands at all, which means I'll be redoing the water in the 5 gallon tank just to be sure.


What a lot of caretakers do is use gloves. Takes the risk of soap out of the picture. You can buy a set of rubber gloves to use only for your fish, keep them in a clean place. You might want to get a couple pairs since you'll have to get rid of them after treating illness.

I just honestly run my hands under really hot water and scrub them well before handling my fish, and wash them with soap when I'm done with fish care for a while. Though I've lost one, my other two are perfectly healthy. 



dougan said:


> So this is why you say I'd have to really be on top of the water changes if I were to not use the flakes to induce the cycle. The bacteria wouldn't be present to handle the ammonia. But the ammonia from my tap is so low, it seems the bacteria wouldn't have anything to feed on.


Mhmm, so it can't cycle without an ammonia source, be it your fish's food and waste or just food by itself.



dougan said:


> No bloating. Someone in another thread mentioned blood in the poop, which is why the light went on for me on that.


Blood in the poop could mean internal parasites or infection. I suppose he doesn't have to bloat if he's constipated. My first thought for constipation would be to stop feeding and let him try to expel what he's eaten so far, but we wanna keep his strength up, too :\ Has he been eating the flakes still since you've been trying to feed him or is he refusing them? It could just be he has nothing left to poop out.

Hopefully, if you get the pellets Callistra recommended you'll see him resume pooping (if it's true that he just hasn't been eating). Don't worry, apparently my pellets were bad, too. I've used Hikari Betta Bio-gold for years, but Callistra has a point saying that since the first ingredient is fish meal that they're not ideal for my fish's diets. I got some New Life Spectrum Betta food when I went to get the Vitachem on Sunday for Axel, so my other two guys are now eating better than before.

I'm thinking the stress from all this is keeping his body from processing the flakes like he used to when he was healthy. He might be feeling sick from eating the flakes since they're not what his system is geared towards and he's ill at the moment, which would be why he's refusing them.



dougan said:


> And straight out of the faucet, my water is apparently way above 7.6 or something like that. Does the slow acclimation of 1 tablespoon every 10-15 minutes help at all with this, or should I start looking into something for gH and kH?


What pH is the water when it's in the tank? Generally, in most cases, messing with the gH or kH is not recommended. I had no choice, really, since mine was dropping to an unsafe zone. 

If yours isn't going below 6, I'd simply age all the water for changes (let it sit in a bucket for a few days) so that it's already at 6 when you add it and he never has to deal with a different pH. Callistra said it should help with stability, too. 6 is the lowest I'd have it go. As I stated in a prior post, Bettas don't mind a slightly acidic pH. 

I have a clean bucket that I've filled with water to just let sit for a week, which is the time period between my changes. I'll then take an extra heater and heat it to the same temp as my tanks (78F) before adding it so I don't shock them.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Azurelove said:


> Blood in the poop could mean internal parasites or infection. I suppose he doesn't have to bloat if he's constipated. My first thought for constipation would be to stop feeding and let him try to expel what he's eaten so far, but we wanna keep his strength up, too :\ Has he been eating the flakes still since you've been trying to feed him or is he refusing them? It could just be he has nothing left to poop out.


He pooped this morning. And it was normal color, too.



Azurelove said:


> Hopefully, if you get the pellets Callistra recommended you'll see him resume pooping (if it's true that he just hasn't been eating). Don't worry, apparently my pellets were bad, too. I've used Hikari Betta Bio-gold for years, but Callistra has a point saying that since the first ingredient is fish meal that they're not ideal for my fish's diets. I got some New Life Spectrum Betta food when I went to get the Vitachem on Sunday for Axel, so my other two guys are now eating better than before.
> 
> I'm thinking the stress from all this is keeping his body from processing the flakes like he used to when he was healthy. He might be feeling sick from eating the flakes since they're not what his system is geared towards and he's ill at the moment, which would be why he's refusing them.


I got the Omega One Pellets (they don't have New Life Spectrum) this morning. I came back and put just one in his cup, and he refused it. But he also refused his usual food yesterday (would spit it back out), so I'm sure you're right about him not wanting to eat since he's feeling sick, or the new flakes did upset his stomach. But tomorrow will be four days since he's eaten.



Azurelove said:


> What pH is the water when it's in the tank? Generally, in most cases, messing with the gH or kH is not recommended. I had no choice, really, since mine was dropping to an unsafe zone.
> 
> If yours isn't going below 6, I'd simply age all the water for changes (let it sit in a bucket for a few days) so that it's already at 6 when you add it and he never has to deal with a different pH. Callistra said it should help with stability, too. 6 is the lowest I'd have it go. As I stated in a prior post, Bettas don't mind a slightly acidic pH.
> 
> I have a clean bucket that I've filled with water to just let sit for a week, which is the time period between my changes. I'll then take an extra heater and heat it to the same temp as my tanks (78F) before adding it so I don't shock them.


I just checked the pH of the tank water and his cup water and they are both registering at 7.6, which according to the instructions, means that the pH is probably much higher. My Petsmart doesn't have the high range pH test kit either, so I'll check Amazon.

Also, I felt bad having him in the red Hefty cup (I've been calling it a Solo), because he can't see anything but a white wall all the time. So I bought I small measuring cup and have him in there now.

I was watching him really closely and his eyes were moving everywhere. He seems to be coming up for air more frequently since the change.

For a few moments he was also swimming really aggressively at the perimeter of the measuring cup, like he was trying to break through. I thought that since the cup is clear, he probably thought that he could swim farther than he could. But he's still hanging out at the bottom, so I'm reluctant to put him in the tank since he'll have so far up to go when he wants air.

I've attached some photos.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

He does look worse.. he's no longer holding himself upright and he is very clamped.. His gills are red which says maybe ammonia poisoning.. 

How often are you changing the water in that cup? Ammonia will build VERY quickly. I would do 2 100% daily.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

callistra said:


> He does look worse.. he's no longer holding himself upright and he is very clamped.. His gills are red which says maybe ammonia poisoning..
> 
> How often are you changing the water in that cup? Ammonia will build VERY quickly. I would do 2 100% daily.


Hi Callistra,

I've been changing the cup water out twice since you told me to begin doing so on Monday of this week. On Wednesday I changed the water 3 times.

I took majesticstorm's suggestion and when I perform the water change, I syphon out most of the water from the cup with a turkey baster (she told me it would be less stressful for him that way). I then replenish the cup water with the water from the tank I'm floating him in (which I just tested for ammonia and it came back 0 ppm). Then I replenish the floating tank water with Prime-treated water from yet another 1 gallon tank that I have sitting for the purpose of replenishing water in the float tank.

When I syphon the water out of his cup, I take out enough water so the water level is just above him. Is this sufficient as 100% water change?

An update:

About 3 hours before your last post, I tried feeding him an Omega One pellet and he went for it, but spit it out. So then I tried feeding him the Omega One flakes and he ate about 4-5 very small flakes.

You're right, he does appear to be worse, but when I put him in the clear measuring cup, he seemed to perk up for a little while. And I take his eating the Omega One flakes as an encouraging sign.

I am, however, concerned that the thickness of the measuring cup walls will make it difficult for the cup water to be the same temperature as the tank water. So tomorrow I'll pick up a thermometer that I can place in the cup to verify that the cup and tank water temperatures are equal.

Should I stay the course as far as how I'm treating him? Please let me know if I should be doing anything differently.

Thank you.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

So remind me are you doing anything but just clean water?


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

All I'm doing right now is changing the water in his float cup and replenishing with Prime-treated water from the float tank.

I've also been testing the ammonia level about 3 hours after the last water change, and the ammonia level seems to rise to between 0.25 ppm and 0.50 ppm (from between 0 ppm and 0.25 ppm immediately after the most recent water change). So since yesterday, I've been changing his water every 3-4 hours in an effort to keep the ammonia levels as low as possible (except for when I fall asleep, in which case there may be about 5-6 hours since the last water change).

I've been syphoning the cup water out with a turkey baster until the water level is just above his body, and then replenish. So it isn't literally a 100% water change.

Also, I've been able to successfully feed him 4-5 Omega One flakes twice daily. He absolutely refused the Omega One pellets.

I was considering moving him to the 5 gallon tank that I purchased and putting him in a mesh breeder that I purchased. Since the breeder is close to the surface of the water, he will continue to have a short vertical trip for air, and I can also probably reduce the frequency of the water changes, since it should take longer for ammonia levels to rise in a 5 gallon tank as opposed to his small measuring cup.

What do you think of moving him to the 5 gallon tank?

I also purchased a bottle of the Tetra SafeStart. Would you recommend it?

Thank you.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I think using the mesh breeder is a good idea because ammonia won't build so quickly. In a 5g you only need to do twice weekly 50% and 100% changes.

I wouldn't bother with most bacterial supplements. I never had luck with that one myself. It's also not the right time to try cycling the tank. It needs to be kept pristine while he is healing.

Try getting some fresh organic garlic. Crush it and soak the omega one pellets in it for a few minutes to absorb the garlic juice and see if he will eat them then. 

I think at this point since he is getting worse he clearly needs something else. You could either try treating conservatively with aquarium salt and epsom salt - 1 tsp per gallon each, predissolved and added slowly in order to avoid shock. The Epsoms in particular need to be pure 100% magnesium sulfate with no dyes, perfumes or additives of any kind. I use CVS Pharmacy brand. Or you could look for a good internal antibiotic like Kanaplex or Triple Sulfa may also be effective.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Callistra,

I set up the 5 gallon tank last night. The water is treated with Prime and heated. As you can see from the picture, I'm trying to keep the water level low enough so that he can easily get to the surface. As it is, I may need to actually reduce the water level.

As far as the procedure goes, I was thinking of predissolving the salts in a smaller container, adding the predissolved solution _all at once_ to the 5 gallon tank, then floating him for 1 hour for temperature and then begin acclimating him to the new water 1 tbs every 10-15 minutes for an hour. Is this correct?

Thank you.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

That would work too. Good luck!!


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

*Quick update*

I'm in the process of acclimating my fish to the new tank. He's in his cup in the top right portion of the tank.

He is still having trouble swimming to the surface for air. The water level has to be pretty low for him to be able to get to the top, so I'm probably going to have to siphon out a considerable amount of water once I release him into the breeder.

My question is this: can a betta suffocate if it can't reach the surface for air?

Thank you.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Yes, a betta can suffocate if it can't reach the surface. Just make sure he can get up for air.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Thank you, Callistra.

I'm also having trouble with the temperature. The temperature in the tank is reading 79 F, but the temp in the cup is 77 F. I tried using the other thermometer in the cup and it also reads 77 F. I've tried moving the cup to the same side as the thermometer because I thought maybe the water is warmer there than where I first positioned the cup. I just repositioned him about 30 minutes ago.

And I can't allow the water in the cup to go too high because he then won't be able to reach the surface, but I'm worried about there being too high a concentration of ammonia for the amount of water present.

I've been acclimating him now for almost three hours. How long can I allow him to be in that small amount of water while I wait for the temperatures to equalize?

Thank you, again, for your help. I appreciate it.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

He heating element is actually on the end of the heater.. it looks like you have an air stone at the top? That may help.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

Well, he's in the breeder, which is in the 5 gallon tank. As you can see, I've reduced the water level dramatically so that it's just over his head, making the reach for the surface as easy as possible. I did this because I noticed that while he was in his floating cup, even with very little water he was having to jump to the surface for air. But I'm afraid that being so confined by the low water level may be stressing him even more. He can swim around, but he really can't go anywhere vertically.

Sometime tonight will make 48 hours that he's been here (I don't recall the exact time I put him in the breeder from his floating cup).
Sometimes he keeps himself upright, and at other times he leans. The same is the case with his clamping (his fins will go from being very close to his body to a more relaxed position). Also, his gills seem to go from very slow movement, to more pronounced movements where they seem to open wider.

But he seems to constantly keep his head upright near the surface.



callistra said:


> You could either try treating conservatively with aquarium salt and epsom salt - 1 tsp per gallon each...


I ended up dissolving about 2.25 tsp each of both epsom and aquarium salts into the tank. A 5 gallon would call for 5 tsp of each, but I couldn't recall exactly how many gallons of water I put into the tank the night before. But I knew at the time that there were at least just over 2 gallons of water. And when I reduced the water level to be closer to his head, I took out just over 1 gallon of water. So at the time I put the salt in the tank, there were probably between 3 and 4 gallons of water.


callistra said:


> Or you could look for a good internal antibiotic like Kanaplex or Triple Sulfa may also be effective.


I have not been able to find anyone locally who carries either the Kanaplex or the Triple Sulfa you mentioned. Although they do have it from http://www.drsfostersmith.com, but it'll take time to be delivered to me.

He doesn't appear to be getting better, but he also doesn't appear to be getting worse (unless there's something I'm not seeing). And I feel like when I try to fix one thing, I introduce another problem. Take the water level, for example. The water level is very low, which makes it easier for him to get air from the surface, but now I'm sure he feels extremely confined.

Any thoughts? Thank you again.


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## dougan (Feb 9, 2013)

I should have posted this sooner, but help is no longer needed. He didn't make it. My overdue thanks to everyone who responded and offered their help (callistra, LittleBlueFishlets, Azurelove, majesticstorm and Fishybitty). I appreciate it very much. Hopefully others will learn from the mistakes that I made so that their fish won't go through the same thing as mine.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm sorry he didn't make it. :-(


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm sorry


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## majesticstorm (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm so sorry he didn't make it 

S.I.P little fella.


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