# Omg what did I do?? All new tank, plants, toys... Fish almost dying? Still not 2 late



## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Hi guys,

I am so sad, my Betta was doing really really well. Then his light burnt out and I had got so busy I had not changed his tank water in the 2.5 gallon in almost 2.5 months.

So anyways, I wanted to treat him. I bought him a tetra 5 gallon crescent tank.

New silk plants, new gravel, new everything! Only reused the heater (25w).

Now recently I thought he started getting minor fin rot, his color had gotten cloudy/lost color a little bit... and his fin(s) were curling at the bottom. He still swam around and ate.


Now Wed night (10pm) I put 5 gallon of somewhat room temp water. I rinsed 2 bags of gravel. Added Stress Coat (blue/purple bottle) - the 1 that helps the biological filter go better), added aqueon water conditioner, and 1 tablespoon of aq salt. All the right measurements. When we 1st put him in, he was swimming around wild for a while. Seemed to be happy.

Then I noticed yesterday (2nd day in new tank, well 1.5 days since we changed it the night before).. all he would do is sit toward the bottom, in his cave, or in the middle of plants basically not moving like he is a asleep.

Last night I added an anubia, crested java fern, and a Sword of some sort - I had relatives over and COMPLETELY forgot to rinse them off thoroughly and put them in the tank. 

So all last night even with his light on, all he did was sit in the plants or behind his cave barely moving. I went downstairs at 2 am and almost thought he died, he was literally at the bottom touching gravel just breathing and sitting next to his cave... i began to really worry.

Wake up this morning and he really hadn't moved just faced diff directions. The water is Cloudy!!!!! I just did a new water change Wed night at 10-11 pm EST. 

So I have a 1 gallon little bowl. Filled it with similar temp water. Put in Aqueon Water conditioner, 1ml of that stress zyme or w/e it is.. but before i touched his other habitat he started darting out of nowhere in his new tank!!!! But I still took him out and put him in the 1G and hes in there.. and now he is just sitting in the bottom of there, swimming occasionally.. I put in 2 pellets and I didn't see him eat them as I am typing now, but my gf said they are gone... I guess that is good?

Anyway I don't know why new tank waater was cloudy, cause I didn't rinse plants off? AQ Salt 32 hours later ( never used before and wanted to treat the rot naturally vs the bettafix I have didnt want to use it yet)

Now for pics, pic of whole tank is from last night. In the little bowl this morning, and I got a pic of him hiding in the plant like he did last night w light on when hes usually swimming he would sit and not move.

And the 1 pic is scary - hes at bottom this morning and where he was at 2 am just diff directions sitting there.

Also I circled what is that spot on him! Hes had it for a week or so now and it got a little bigger last 30 hours...

PS in his new tank hes been flaring his gills. I am just really worried. We have had him since Mid July of last year. Hes grown a lot.. and hes been in his old tank since Mid August last year.. this tank and everything wound up getting expensive, i was so happy to treat him and now I feel I hurt him 

*Please help me before its too late*


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## Burd (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm going to put it out there - did you cycle the tank before putting him in it or are you just doing 5 gallon water changes here and there? 

There's a whole list of information that would help if you filled it out.



> Housing
> What size is your tank?
> What temperature is your tank?
> Does your tank have a filter?
> ...


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Burd said:


> I'm going to put it out there - did you cycle the tank before putting him in it or are you just doing 5 gallon water changes here and there?
> 
> There's a whole list of information that would help if you filled it out.



I did respond with a lot of that info:

5g
77 degrees
Filter is tetra whisper the 10i I believe that comes with the tetra crescents
heater 25 watt hydor
only fish - 10 months of ownership almost, and probably 3to 5 at Walmart

Food:
NLS betta pellets (2 morning, evening)


Brand new tank came and I did completely new water change
added: aw salt to treat fin rot I believe he has.. 1 tablespoon for 5g, aqueon water cond 25 ml for 5 g, and the API StressZyme 5ml for 5g.

Forgot to rinse silk plants, and 3 live plants - Water is cloudy this morning after 30 hrs of running brand new.

Now before this tank, he was in 2.5g.. water hadnt been changed in 2.5 months.. it had gravel filter. w 25 watt heater... water temp 78-80 degrees. ------------ He lost some color and believe minor fin rot.. hence new tank bc his old 1 light died. and i also saw a week or so ago he formed that thing i circled.

Never was sick before in 10 months, very healthy and happy, with often bubblenests.

Fish now doesnt move much, see pics above, thought he was dead this morning.

he is moving more in his 1g quarantine tank...w new water, and additives i altered to work for 1g.

Symptoms of him hiding in plants (see pic above) started late the 1st night.. not much movement, sitting still like sleeping.. within 2 hrs of new tank.. only gotten worse... new live plants go in last night and water is cloudy now.

I have bettafix, didnt add it yet, wanted aw salt to see if naturally it could fix him w better water.

I have a whole $30 water testing kit. When I get home I am going to test it and post up what it says from the results...


however from what i described in detail here... cloudy water, didnt rinse plants, etc... and how he looks, and how i described him (past 3 weeks his color diminished... however he still ate everyday and swam alot till recently...)


Please help. he is seem to be doing better in the quarantine tank (somewhat) and he did eat 2 NLS pellets.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

The cloudiness in the 5 gallon was because you did not cycle it. There are a number of ways to cycle tanks, you can look it up easily on google.

You shouldn't add "_stress zyme_" to bowls, it is for cycling/maintaining tanks with filters. It contains bacteria. It shouldn't hurt him but it is not necessary for a bowl. 

I've heard Bettafix is no good. It is basically just watered down Maracyn products. I'm not sure what the spot is, but he could use some salt, daily water changes and TLC. 
Good luck with him


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

DarkMoon17 said:


> The cloudiness in the 5 gallon was because you did not cycle it. There are a number of ways to cycle tanks, you can look it up easily on google.
> 
> You shouldn't add "_stress zyme_" to bowls, it is for cycling/maintaining tanks with filters. It contains bacteria. It shouldn't hurt him but it is not necessary for a bowl.
> 
> ...



For the AQ salt I gave right amount for the 5g tank. Should I add AQ salt for the bowl he is in..? If so how much..

You said daily water changes. Should I keep him in the bowl for this as its easier until he is healthier?

Also do you recommend a full cleaning of the 5g tank? IE rinsing silk plants hot water, rinsing live plants with room temp water, and rinsing gravel and tank with HOT HOT Water?

Should I rinse the bio bag under water? I didnt do that to begin with? Does that need to be rinsed off /cleaned with hot water?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

How did you acclimate him from the old 2.5gal to the new 5gal tank.....


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> How did you acclimate him from the old 2.5gal to the new 5gal tank.....



Put in the products I stated, and got the temps to almost match, and picked him with net and put him in. 

I can tell you the old 2.5 gallon tank wasn't in the best shape.. I mean liek I said it hadn't been changed in about 2.5 months... but I guess he was use to it, so even giving him all new stuff it disrupted him?

But I noticed the spot on him about a week or so ago, and he had become a little less lively even in his 2.5 gallon once his light died about 2.5-3 weeks ago.

I probably am going to rinse everything with hot water and start over and i am going to use this link: 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=34505&highlight=cycle+tank

anyone have a better link for cycling?

I have 3 live plants (crested java fern, anubia, and a sword)

I knew something was wrong last night at 2 am and then this morning at 7 am... he was literally (refer to pic) laying on the gravel not moving. Once i saw that I got him out of the tank and he is in 1g now with aqueon water conditioner, and water is probably a touch warmer then room temp but will probably cool since its sitting in the kitchen area.

Should I clean everything tonight like I said and then add him back? or keep him in the 1G for a week or 2 with daily 100% water changes with just water conditioner and a little salt in his bowl.

For a bowl how much salt should I add? its your typical fish bowl, maybe .70 gallons to 1 gallon?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

What it sounds like to me is a nitrate and/or pH shock......when you move a fish from a neglected tank that most likely had high nitrates and low pH and place them in fresh clean water that doesn't have nitrate and your normal pH from the source water.....this can shock the system....usually within 12-24h the fish will start to get sick and usually die.....Bettas are tough fish and can sometimes tolerate these shifts a little better than other species of fish.....

Its important to acclimate the fish to both water temp and water chemistry when new and when moving from neglected water to clean water slowly by adding small amount of the new water to the holding container over a period of time....

Right now I would keep him QT in the small container and start 50% daily water changes...if you want to use any treatment I would use Epsom salt 2tsp/gal and tannins......good luck....


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> What it sounds like to me is a nitrate and/or pH shock......when you move a fish from a neglected tank that most likely had high nitrates and low pH and place them in fresh clean water that doesn't have nitrate and your normal pH from the source water.....this can shock the system....usually within 12-24h the fish will start to get sick and usually die.....Bettas are tough fish and can sometimes tolerate these shifts a little better than other species of fish.....
> 
> Its important to acclimate the fish to both water temp and water chemistry when new and when moving from neglected water to clean water slowly by adding small amount of the new water to the holding container over a period of time....
> 
> Right now I would keep him QT in the small container and start 50% daily water changes...if you want to use any treatment I would use Epsom salt 2tsp/gal and tannins......good luck....


He is tough! And I agree almost maybe with the shock, cause he would not move. I think you say 50% water changes to keep stability in the tank for him with "older water" and kind of getting it more dirty so to speak to get him what he is "use to".

When you say get "sick" is there a specific sickness caused from this? I don't have epsom salt, but the API AQ salt.. how much of that for every gallon, and what is tannins?


Thank you so much for your help.


PS. I would guess its a good sign he ate the 2 pellets this morning.


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

girlfriend left around 12:45 pm EST and he was doing better then when I left. When i left he was primarily sitting at bottom not moving. So 90% not moving, 10% moving.

At 12:45 he was 35% or so moving, and 65% sitting at bottom... (i take this as a good sign? Also he ate his food from this morning right before I left this morning his food was gone).

He is in the .75-1 gallon bowl right now with fresh water (room temp around 70 degrees since I cant heat the bowl).

Anyone else agree that I probably shocked him from "crap" water pardon my language with high and low ph, nitrite, etc.. to a balanced new tank and he is like this.

*Also, why did the new tank get cloudy? What should I do to the new tank, so I can get him back in there?*

Thanks for everyones help, its nice I have this place forum that I share good times, and also times I need help.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Nitrate not nitrite.....when a tank is neglected...changes occur naturally and has to be controlled with regular water changes since its a closed system....the nitrate build up and due to the organics in the tank as they break down can cause the water to become more acidic lowering the pH....when a sudden changes is made with either of these....it can shock the system....this is one of the myths you hear about "A water change killed my fish" come from.....the water change didn't kill the fish per say...it was shock related from the sudden change in pH and nitrate with the water change.....

It can sometimes take 12-24h for the fish to show symptom and they will either get sick or die...if they survive the shock, often they will have a compromised immune response and you may have a secondary problem show up.

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood.....you want to make 50% water changes with fresh dechlorinated water not old dirty water....

Epsom salt would be better to use in this case, if you want to try aquarium salt I would use 1tsp/gal....I would only treat while in the small QT, however, you may want to find something smaller to use so that you can float it in the heated tank to maintain a water temp of at least 76F...70F is really too low.

Tannins-come from Indian almond leaf you can find on-line or native naturally dried and fallen from the tree Oak leaf.

Good that he is eating...

Cloudy water in the new 5gal....could be bacterial, dusty gravel, new items not rinsed enough...etc.....I would make a 50% water change before you add the Betta back once he has recovered......unless you have other livestock in the tank like snails or shrimp....the live plants should start to take care of the water once they start to actively grow...but if the water is too cloudy it could hamper the light penetration for good plant growth...


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> Nitrate not nitrite.....when a tank is neglected...changes occur naturally and has to be controlled with regular water changes since its a closed system....the nitrate build up and due to the organics in the tank as they break down can cause the water to become more acidic lowering the pH....when a sudden changes is made with either of these....it can shock the system....this is one of the myths you hear about "A water change killed my fish" come from.....the water change didn't kill the fish per say...it was shock related from the sudden change in pH and nitrate with the water change.....
> 
> It can sometimes take 12-24h for the fish to show symptom and they will either get sick or die...if they survive the shock, often they will have a compromised immune response and you may have a secondary problem show up.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the reply. And yes he definitely started showing symptoms in that timeframe you said.

I will get epsom salt, not a problem. Tannins any luck at petco or petsmart so I can get it quicker than online?

He is the only live thing I have in the tank besides the 3 plants. I feel like I want to change the water 100% and rinse everything with hot water (plants in cool water though right?) and then start over... letting the plants and cycle the tank - then add that water slowly to his tank after he starts to heal/recover. 


When redoing the 5G tank,

I am going to add:

Everything rinsed off thoroughly and all in hot water except plants (cool/warm water?).

- Water Conditioner 

- Should I add the 1 tablespoon of AQ salt to the 5G without him in it?

- Should I add the API stress coat - says 5ml for 5gallon tank that it helps the biological filter faster?



Would any recommend anything else to add to the whole brand new tank?

*The bio bag in the whisper filter, should I rinse that off in hot water or not do anything to it?*

I am asking this important question about what to do with new tank so if god forbid something happens to my guy, I would get another Betta and don't want this happening ever again. I feel sick that I could have caused this :-cry:


Specifically to "OldFishLady": With a neglected tank as you say with lower pH/higher acid... is that a typical cause of fin rot / discoloration or does fin rot cause discoloration? 

And any idea what that looks to be on his top side that I circled in the OP. 

I am very grateful for your replies.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

In the new 5gal tank...NO aquarium salt....you don't want to use that long term especially with live plants.....I would make a 50% water only change on the 5gal and let it start the nitrogen cycle..the live plants will work as the ammonia source to get it started and to hold it....its a new setup so it needs time......keep the filter running and don't do anything to the filter media unless the water flow slow too much and then just a rinse/swish in old tank water to get the big pieces of gunk off...you want the filter media to look dirty...this is good......

Make sure you acclimate the Betta properly to both the water temp and chemistry of the tank before you add the Betta and all should be fine...regardless if it is this Betta after treatment or a new Betta should this one not survive......

The only additive you need to use in the 5gal and for long term housing- is a good dechlorinator for chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals-this is one of the reasons you always want to use a QT for treatments....

The most common cause for fin rot is poor water quality

The 10day Epsom salt treatment along with 100% daily water changes in a small QT container floating in a heated tank to maintain water temp in the 76-77F ranges will also help fin rot.......like aquarium salt the Epsom salt also has antibacterial/fungal properties......

Nutrition is also important...fed high protein foods in small amount several times a day every day...but not to the point of bloat.....if you have access to live foods like mosquito larva...gather some, rinse and fed...they can really help boost the immune response....

I have never heard of IAL being sold at pet shops...not to say they are not sold in pet shops in your area......that is why I like to use native oak leaf from my trees....lol.....and they are 99.9% the same as IAL..plus...Free for the gathering.......just make sure they have not been in contact with any toxic substance


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> In the new 5gal tank...NO aquarium salt....you don't want to use that long term especially with live plants.....I would make a 50% water only change on the 5gal and let it start the nitrogen cycle..the live plants will work as the ammonia source to get it started and to hold it....its a new setup so it needs time......keep the filter running and don't do anything to the filter media unless the water flow slow too much and then just a rinse/swish in old tank water to get the big pieces of gunk off...you want the filter media to look dirty...this is good......
> 
> Make sure you acclimate the Betta properly to both the water temp and chemistry of the tank before you add the Betta and all should be fine...regardless if it is this Betta after treatment or a new Betta should this one not survive......
> 
> ...



Thank you again,

once my Aqueon water conditioner is done (1/2 way there) I am getting Prime as I see its very recommended. 

Right now he eats 2 pellets am and 2 pm of the NLS betta formula. 

Would freeze dried blood warms be better for protein? And above you said 100% daily water changes, you said before to do 50%. If 100% is better I will do that. Just let me know. 


In the 5G right now there is AQ salt.. thats why i said if you want me to start over I will if its better.

Also what about adding that API stress zyme (as I see it has great reviews online and that it speeds the cycle process up). 

In his quarantine bowl - just add eptsom salt as you told me 2 tsps and the water conditioner.

But for his large tank, yes or no to the api stress zyme. 

*Also for those 3 plants is there any other liquid out there you recommend i throw in to keep the plants lively and better?*


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

When I recommended the 50% water changes that was a water only treatment...with any of the salt treatment you want to do 100% daily water changes...it can sometimes be easier if you pre-mix the treatment water in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water...add the salt to dissolve and use this water for the 100% daily water changes...this helps make correct dosage and water changes easier.....and if you have tannins to add all the better...the longer they steep the more tannins released the darker the water the more the Betta likes it.....

Adding in a few freeze dried BW along with the pellets/flakes will be fine...be careful feeding too much of the freeze dried products...frozen would be the next best food to live......

What kind of plants....

Since you have AQ salt in the 5gal I would make some back to back water changes or just tear it down and start over since its new anyway...its up to you what would be easier......

I don't know what that product is to be honest...but if it is intended for the nitrogen cycle...personally I think they are a waste of time and money....


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Yup I'm just going to tear dowen and start fresh. Rinse everything in hot water.. except not touch the bio bag and warm water or hot on plants?

The 3 plants are a crested java fern, anubia both of them are 4 inches . And a a 8 inch amazon sword. Any liquids you recommend To keep them healthier and greener?

I feel much better with taking care of my betta now and future bettas. I truly enjoy how they act


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Update 9:30 PM EST 

Just got home for the 1st time since this morning. My fish is doing much better knock on wood and thank the lord.

As soon as I turned the big kitchen light on he came right to the top as he always does.. he is much more lively.. he is swimming around, he is coming to the top, and is flaring at me when i go up to the tank!!!

I just fed him 2 pellets (so 4 today total) I hope thats good for a 1 year + beta? and he ate them super fast 1 right after the other!

I hope this means he is recovering - he is doing so much better for sure!


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## Thunderloon (Feb 6, 2011)

Sudden cloudy tank is almost always a bacterial bloom, in new tanks it is guaranteed to be ammonia eating bacteria producing nitrite.

If you add in bottled bacteria in a tank that has a fair amount of ammonia you WILL have a shock bloom of bacteria and a massive nitrite spike.
Nitrite acts like carbon monoxide on fish, betta are able to tolerate more than most fish but it will still kill them.

If you're setting up a fully cycled tank the bacteria will take forever to begin eating nitrite if there is any appreciable amount of ammonia in the tank. If there is too much ammonia the bacteria will simply go to sleep.

You mentioned "bio bag"... no such thing. There should be an insert-frame with your filter that has a black sponge in it, this is the bio-media. Activated charcoal is simply a mechanical filter on a molecular level, not a magical material that makes biology work.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Good to hear he is better......

Plant food-the sword is a substrate feeder and root tabs work well for them the fern and anubias should both be tied to something in the tank like driftwood or a decoration of some type....you don't want to bury the roots in the substrate-they will rot and die...they are water column feeders and the liq type plant food should be fine, however, these are slow growing and low feeders...usually the waste from the fish and any left over food is all they need...personally I wouldn't add any extra food unless they look like they need it...

Look forward to pic once you get it all setup.....


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## jackals (Jul 20, 2010)

Ok after a long day. He is now in his 1 gallon QT tank _ its a cool shape like a sphere/triangle that is semi tall... it fits his hydor theo 25watt.. temp right now is 77 degrees - and he has his 2 tsp epsom salt in there, with aqueon water conditioner and api slime coat to help is fin rot/ bacteria/fungus on his back (pic is in original post).


The new tank was fully torn down and re done... rinsed everything in hot water, cept live plants in warmish water... and put it all back. the tank is running... put in slime coat for water conditioner and its cycling with the 3 plants... pic below - I am on Day 2/10 with my betta who survived shock from bad water to good water, and happy to report he is doing better.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm glad to hear he is doing better! It looks like you've got the tank/qt issue under control.

To answer your question about the stress zyme, yes you can use it in the 5 gallon to help with the cycling process. I'm not sure how much it actually speeds up the process but it does supply beneficial bacteria.


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