# Breeding out aggression



## TenoriTaiga (Mar 27, 2014)

So, I'm sure everyone on this forum is familiar with the aggressive behaviors of their domestically bred betta compannions. I was wondering if anyone has found any articles relating to breeding aggression out of bettas. 

I have found an experiment that took place in Russia in regards to breeding domesticated silver foxes: http://youtu.be/0jFGNQScRNY

My questions for breeders would be as follows: 
Would the same concept of the domestication of the silver foxes translate over when breeding bettas?
Would these less aggressive bettas change in appearance?
Would any breeders be willing to attempt this experiment?


Some might question why would I even question the behaviors of bettas? Well...actually..I am a university student studying psychology so behaviors intrest me greatly. When I came across the thread "Imagine a tank full of bettas" I thought to myself..."could this be possible?" then recalled the experiment regarding the silver foxes.

Here's another clip of the silver fox experiment:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xwq3rs_evolution-in-action-the-silver-fox-experiment_shortfilms


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah I've seen a documentary on the Russian fox breeding project.

I would guess it might be possible - people who fight their bettas breed for aggression so I don't know why the opposite would not be true.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

It should be possible. Now that splendens are often crossed to other less aggressive betta species, some may show less aggression. 

I have had dragon scaled fry kept together for over 5 months without any nipping nor fighting. Only occasional "that's mine (food), stay away". . . . until I added a new young batch (half the size). This new batch was very aggressive and even challenged the big guys . . . and hell broke loose.

I doubt if betta breeders are willing to breed aggression out. Without flaring, we can't see their full beauty.

About aggression: I'm not sure how aggression was "bred into" splendens. I find that most bettas not separated will show low mentality and thus will only "flare fight" or until a few bites. But once they are separated they tend to build up their self esteem (if you could call it that) and will fight to shreds. . . . IMO any kind of stress induces aggression. If you don't stress them at all (which is often impossible), they will not be that aggressive. And keeping them together since young will reduce a great deal of their mentality.


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## missavgp (Apr 17, 2013)

I have a male who is actually very docile and I have found his young to follow that mentality a lot. I have four six month olds (male and female) who I have never separated and there is NO aggression at all, no flaring, nipped fins, barely even a halfhearted dart to get the best food piece.
That said....they are kinda dull other than their schooling behaviour which amuses my sons because they like to be 'petted' by swimming around your fingers


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Aggression is part of their mating ritual...once you water them down to guppies it will be difficult getting them to breed. 
They will change in appearance, getting uglier and losing quality since they wont flare and the breeder will be unable to tell if the fish has good form or not. Plus they wont be selecting for for but temperament so the ugliest, spoonheaded, messed up runt might be the least aggressive and the founder for the line...


I dont think the silver fox experiment will translate well since they are mammals and their aggression was human based not intraspecific. The fish evolved to be aggressive to each other, its one of their most basic instincts, while the foxs aggression towards the humans is more fear based and they just selected the less scared ones. Bettas intraspecific aggression isnt fear based, its territory/mating based which is a much deeper instinct.

I think if you want a non aggressive, colourful fish get a bunch of guppies. Theres nothing more disappointing then a fighter that wont flare
I wouldnt want to breed for a non aggressive betta personally. Their aggression is one of my favourite parts about them.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

They could just as easily be more attractive if they weren't as aggressive, since without aggression being the deciding factor it's likely that looks would be more important.

Too, citing poor breeding practices such as letting deformed runts breed is just silly. I think anyone attempting something like this would not want to breed those fish, but rather healthy fish that are not aggressive.


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## cousiniguana (Apr 3, 2014)

The flaring could easily be seen as a breeding display, even as just a territorial display followed only by chasing. The same looks could be preserved without too much trouble. It's easy to introduce color patterns with a single male.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Good luck. Females have been known to destroy non-aggressive males. I wouldn't be surprised if non-aggressive bettas displayed limited coloration and their double stripes.


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## TenoriTaiga (Mar 27, 2014)

Bettas have their own unique personalities so I would not venture as far to say that they would become glorified guppies through behavioral experimentation. However, without testing this myself I cannot completely refute your statement.

Also, I saw your [trilobite] post regarding this topic from last year..there seems to have been very few to no advancements made to exploring the possibility the results of this kind of breeding. Or maybe my search results have been inconclusive due to the lack of publication.

In regards to females--it would also make sense to breed non-aggressive females into the line. Of course finding the balance between breeding related aggression and non-mating aggression would be an additional difficult task. 

Finding/breeding a non-aggressive pair would be a challenge--but then again experimentation in itself is challenging and time consuming.

Another point to clarify would be non-aggressive bettas in regards to the show ring. As stated by posters above--these bettas would not do well in the show ring since they would not be flaring/showing their "full potential". If success is found in breeding a line of tame bettas I have high doubts that they would come remotely close to being "show quality". However, my interest is not in show quality betta breeding, but in the behavioral aspect of this species. Additional finnage, skeletal structure, and coloration of their bodies comes as a secondary interest, however it would not be a topic to completely ignore. 

As noted by Trilobite, these animals are not mammilian. However, behavioral breeding or modification can also be applied to birds and reptiles. 

Another interesting concept to consider would be if there is a possibility to condition bettas to flare as a non-aggressive response and to other stimuli. These fish have been noted to be "intelligent" --as far as teaching them tricks/going through mazes (when coaxed by food), so would it be possible to instill classical conditioning?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I would think you would run into issues with reproduction if the aggressive tendencies of these fish was dampened too much. 

Betta splendens is one of the most aggressive species of betta. Even wild betta splendens are quite aggressive, and many will show some level of aggression towards rival males and potential breeding partners.

I always look at the whole courtship process as a test of the breeding suitability of both partners. It is most likely in a female's best interest to mate with a male that does show a particular level of aggression because he is then going to be more likely and more able to protect the nest, than a male that is more meek. 

I also noticed with the foxes that in breeding for tamer and tamer individuals, other traits crept in that would undoubtedly be considered as detrimental to wild individuals. I've wondered whether selecting for docile and less reactive individuals, is going to cause the appearance of similar traits in betta fish, and whether this would necessarily be for the better. 

I personally don't agree with the idea of breeding out aggression in betta fish. If you look at the splendens complex of fish, they are by their nature, an aggressive and territorial group of fish. Yes, there has been an emphasis on enhancing this aggression through selective breeding, but none of the six species encompassed within this group could be described as peaceful.

For example, I kept a pair of Betta stiktos (closely related to Betta splendens) together in a 5 gallon tank. While most of the time they got along without issue, there were occasions where my male would get after the female and cause some damage. So while he was much less aggressive than the average splendens male, I would never have described him as a friendly fish.


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## TenoriTaiga (Mar 27, 2014)

With the fear response statement towards the silver fox experiment, over 50 generations later some of the foxes still exhibited aggressive behavior towards the researchers. Although the foxes confines were small, it did not seem as though they were being psychologically or physically abused (such actions would defy the purpose of the experiment). This in mind, one cannot state with confidence that the aggressive responses of the foxes to the researchers was due to a fear response.

One of the researchers in the experiement commented on genetics and aggression: having an aggressive or non-aggressive mother did not change the behavior of the fox kits when their mothers were swapped (when tame kits from a tame mother were given to an aggressive mother and the opposite). There was also a geneticist in the experiment clip who noted that there is a gene responsible for aggressive behavior.

For example breeding of pitbulls (although another mammalian species). This dog breed was bred for aggression, a heavy muscular structure, strong jaw line, heavy and durable skeletal structure. However, there seems has been progress with breeding and training these animals to be less aggressive towards other dogs/dog breeds. Especially since the rate/popularity of dog fighting rings has been on the decline (at least publicly).


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

It would be easy enough to select a a fearful line as it would be a brave line. All of the aggressive foxes look fearful to me

The same debate goes with the pit bull and dog aggression. "should we breed out da or shouldnt we" Most people believe if you want a non da dog get a golden retriever or another breed. Dont water down a breed because you are to lazy to give the breed the special responsibilities that it requires eg dont take it to a dog park, make sure it cant escape etc...but thats a whole other can of worms lol.... 

Also bear in mind that once a betta has been separated and isolated, its aggression will increase hugely. How will you know whether your fish has a hugely aggressive temperament which is suppressed in the grow out. Ive jarred runty submissive males and in a day they have become incredibly aggressive. 
Will you keep the entire line in the grow out to suppress any potential aggressors? 

How will you select your breeding pair? the most submissive ones? Bare in mind that the most submissive ones will almost always show their horizontal stripes and are usually the most nervous. The dominant ones usually take the friendly role while the shy ones stay way back.
What would happen if you resulted in a line of pale, nervous/non aggressive fish who always showed their stripes? Goal still achieved? As in the in experiment, physical traits changed as well.

As well as the females needing to be beaten and chased before breeding, bubble nesting is also a territorial behaviour so youd need to keep a level of territorial aggression as well. 
After mating a lot of bettas increase aggression. If you spawn a pair and they then become incredibly aggressive, will you cull the spawn since the parents were agro after all?

Also if this was your only completely peaceful fish would you still use it? Assuming he behaves healthily, just with a placid temperament


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## TenoriTaiga (Mar 27, 2014)

I am not sure if you realize this but I am not a breeder. I am an experimenter and enjoy research, you're taking this theory crafting too personally. I understand that you are completely against breeding out aggression.

I have no doubt that the fish would become more aggressive in isolation. But isolation of the fish during the breeding process to create less aggressive individuals would not particularly support the experimentation process. 

One cannot know for certain until the experiment is conducted and data documented. I appreciate the input though.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

TenoriTaiga said:


> One cannot know for certain until the experiment is conducted and data documented. I appreciate the input though.



Yup


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

TenoriTaiga said:


> I am not sure if you realize this but I am not a breeder. I am an experimenter and enjoy research, you're taking this theory crafting too personally. I understand that you are completely against breeding out aggression.
> 
> I have no doubt that the fish would become more aggressive in isolation. But isolation of the fish during the breeding process to create less aggressive individuals would not particularly support the experimentation process.
> 
> One cannot know for certain until the experiment is conducted and data documented. I appreciate the input though.



Im not really taking it personally, I love thinking of theories as well 
which is why I put all the other questions into play. Since if someone was going to breed a line those are the points that need to be addressed. Just adding more things to think about/discuss.

Personally Im against it yes, but its interesting to talk about how it could be done and how to over come those problems, which is why my points had question marks at the end of them instead of full stops.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Note: Not advised for Novice breeders nor new betta hobbyists.

FIrst let me point out my definition:
Aggression = the act of flaring immediately upon sight of others - often associated with viciousness. 

Vicious = the readiness to kill others, level is a basic character of individuals.
Mentality = not easily stressed - would fight to death or at least til half dead. Can be manipulated by means of isolation.

Aggressive bettas may not be vicious - some may stop aggression if the opponent does not flare back. But there are vicious ones that will kill others.

Aggressive bettas may have low mentality - they stress if flared for too long. Some may stress after 15 minutes, or less, of flaring.
Vicious bettas may have low mentality - they won't fight it out but are ready to kill less aggressive bettas.
Bettas that has lost actual fights or stressed from flaring usually show lower mentality in the sense that they will never fight nor flare too long.
High mentality female bettas will take beatings and keep returning to the male, even though it may kill her.

Hypothetically speaking, IMO it is possible to reduce aggression (not sure about viciousness), but not totally breed out. It is their natural instinct to defend their territory, specially when they want to breed (stress and territory seems to induce aggression). This has been proven by OFL and Mr. Vampire. Though I haven't succeeded to their level, I too can keep them docile in sororities (10 - 50g). But I cannot return a once bred male into a sorority of males. I can only keep them with females . . . . Btw, I’m talking about no nipping at all.


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IME; breeding a pair of rather docile bettas will produce more docile offspring. Thus far I find that if fry are moved when small (5-10 mm) and never scooped out for tank cleaning or disturbed in any way, they will remain docile much longer. Changes to tank setup will also induce aggression. Anything that can be "territory" such as a floating leaf will make one or two aggressive which will spread very fast. 

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Amongst these there will be a few that are aggressive but non vicious. This character will show during breeding - the male hardly hurts the female. And when placed in a sorority of females, he will leave them alone and will only show aggression if two females starts flaring. 

Less aggressive doesn't mean they won't fight when challenged. Nor does it mean they won't flare when breeding. It only means they can live together with other bettas, specially females. There will be a hierarchy within the sorority. The alfa will often be challenged, but not to a point of fighting. . . . this is possible.

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Lately I have been keeping more pairs together long term (in 1g shallow up to 10g) because somehow 3 batches are very hard to breed - semi infertile ???? . . . it takes them weeks to spawn/lay eggs and most of the eggs never hatch. By leaving pairs together (a few months) and letting them breed on their own terms, I can scoop out around 5-10 fry per spawn (more or less every week or two). . . . better than nothing. :lol: 

These so called docile males will build up their aggression once isolated. And they can build up rather high mentalities - at least for flaring; they will flare for hours. I have never fought them, so I don't know how far they would fight. Viciousness is the one thing I cannot manipulate. IME it is an individual character that is hard to change without drastic events (like near death experience). I can only protect (females) by using lots of plants densely placed so the male has a hard time swimming through.

It is in the end a breeders choice. Since people want to view the fins, show and commercial breeders will never make them too docile nor will they chance torn fins. But mere hobbyists like me would - it helps if I don't need to jar hundreds of them.

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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Also if this was your only completely peaceful fish would you still use it? Assuming he behaves healthily, just with a placid temperament


Buuuut... that fish is blind, isn't he? Because he's a dragonscale with scales grown over his eyes? That's not exactly healthy.

That idea's kind of ridiculous, though. I'm no breeder, but I think if breeders were selecting fish for any particular trait, they'd go for generally healthy ones with at least decent characteristics in addition to the chosen trait.

I can definitely see a practical purpose for breeding male bettas who could live together without killing each other. I bet hobbyist betta lovers would absolutely love the idea of being able to keep "fraternities" as well as sororities, and would go crazy over the prospect of keeping just two or three betta boys in a 5gal. I'm sure they'd pay accordingly.

And so would pet stores. Why? Because it solves the betta cup issue. They could keep their bettas in small, well-planted community tanks like their other fish on display, which are easier to care for and sell from than unheated, unfiltered cups filled with so much methylene blue that the fish's color can't be easily seen. They'd be a more attractive display, and would have a much lower fatality rate (if the breeding were successful, and they weren't killing each other).

But, as mentioned, they probably wouldn't be show-worthy--unless the variation became recognized as its own variety, and appreciated in its own category for showing. Which is a possibility.

And, also as mentioned, we can't guess whether they'd still flare without trying this out. Maybe they would. Maybe they wouldn't. Maybe it wouldn't matter so much to people when the rest of the fish's characteristics were considered.

Same thing with whether they'd be hard to breed because of lack of aggression, but as someone suggested (sorry, I don't remember who it was), perhaps viciousness could be bred out while still leaving a little aggression. Cichlids are pretty aggressive, but they can live together. (Different fish with different characteristics/genetics/whatever, I know, but that's the idea being suggested here.)

Anyway: Aren't wilds supposed to be okay together? Is it just a splendens thing?

I really don't know much about this, but that's my two cents on why you'd want to do it, regardless of whether or not it's possible.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Not sure I understand comparing/citing animals whose aggression is fear based with animals whose aggression is survival based.

I'm also not sure breeding Bettas to be kept in fraternities would be that great if to do so one had to breed out aggression and, thus, all the physical display that entails. Archibald is in a 20 long community tank. He swims and occasionally chases some of the Nano fish or shrimp. But he seldom flares or acts excited. He's just a fish that kinda hangs out. Although maybe in a fraternity they would act like my male Endlers and Panda Guppies and flare, display, chase, etc., with mock fighting but no damage.

Leander, Lips and Dexter are in a divided 10. They are more active, flare at each other several times a day and seem to be much "happier." Which would lead me to question whether breeding out aggression would be a good thing for the Betta or only benefit humans?

Just my 2 cents.


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## TenoriTaiga (Mar 27, 2014)

*Fear based aggression vs Pure aggressive behavior*

Since I'm in the middle of studying for my finals I have not been able to address the whole fear based aggression response in the silver foxes and the comparison to the aggression in betta fish. According to Cornell University Institute of Biotechnology, the silver foxes in the experiement were selected for the pure aggressive trait. "Traits requiring subjective interpretation of animal actions (for example “Fox is afraid” or “Fox demonstrates submissive behavior”) were avoided" (Cornell University). 

http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Behavioral_Assignment.htm

Anyways, I hope that clarified some things. I will do some more research and post my findings on this topic after my finals.


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