# I am even killing the moss balls



## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

This is my first serious attempt at a planted tank and I think so far it's safe to say I suck at it.

The sword in the back left the leafs are turning brown, the other two swords are green but alot more droppy than they first were. the grass looks alot rougher and even the moss balls are dying. 

I set the tank up about 2 weeks ago it's 10 gallon with no betta or other fish yet. I had two 6W CFL in the hood, but changed them today for two 13W figuring maybe not enough light. Have been putting in drops per dosing instructions of FlorinAxis carbon source and FlorinAxis Multi nutrient with iron and iodine every day. the plants are in flourite in their respective pots.
Water is testing OK for an aquarium. The moss balls really frost me because they are a nice emerald green in my non planted Betta's tank, I am trying for them to do good here and they turning brown. any suggestions


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## Scott7975 (Apr 4, 2010)

Are you using tap water? If so are you dechlorinating it? Are you overdosing with chemicals maybe? Im new to the plant stuff but marimo balls are the easiest thing to take care of from what I have read.


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

The water is from a well so no chlorine to worry about. I think your right about the chemicals, moss balls are doing fine in my other non planted tank so the only real difference between the two tanks is the fertilizer and carbon source I am adding to this one. Maybe I will just stop adding it all together for a while and see what happens. Non of the plants are happy right now so I think it can't hurt.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What are the exact plant names you have here? Back left looks like a Melon Sword? Back right looks like a regular Amazon Sword? Front right is java moss, front left looks like an Anubias species? And then Marimo balls.

Also, I've never heard of the ferts you are using, perhaps you should try some SeaChem Flourish Comprehensive? That has the majority of what your are using in one bottle making it easier. I use a few drops in a 10 gallon daily or every other day and my plants are growing obnoxiously without enhanced gravel, just regular plain gravel although recently I did add some laterite to try to stimulate my dwarf hairgrass more.


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## peachii (Jan 6, 2013)

Brightwell aquatic products are just as good as Seachem, nothing wrong with using them at all.

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/florinmulti.php


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

peachii said:


> Brightwell aquatic products are just as good as Seachem, nothing wrong with using them at all.
> 
> http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/florinmulti.php


Okay! Just never heard of them was all, I know I shouldn't jump to conclusions on liquid ferts since I'm still learning myself!!


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

The sword turning brown is from petsmart, If I remember correctly (ya I should have written it down) It was just labeled Echinodorus but didn't have a second name to narrow it down to a specific sword. The Grassy looking plant I believe was labeled Sagittaria also petsmart. The other two swords I got from a mom/pop fish store, so not labeled but the guy said they were amazon swords.


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## AmbiantNight (Feb 12, 2014)

If those moss balls are Marimo they don't like hard sun light. Take them out and put them in a bowl placed in a spot with diffused light. Marimo also don't always do well with the fertalizers used for other plants. Your better to use the plant tablets if you got Mars in the tank.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

the "grass" is not grass, it is Java Moss which is why it isn't looking so hot. Java Moss likes to be attached to think, not planted as a normal plant so you could attach them to the ornament, that would be pretty neat I think ^_^

Also take into account, your plants are acclimating to your water which means they will melt and look pretty bad for a while until they acclimate and get used to your water since this is all new to them! So remove dead/dying leaves from the sword since that will just take away from them and they won't focus on new leaves. Here take a look at this link for sword care: http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Decor Amazon Sword.htm


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

Ok moss balls are out and now living in there own individual mason jars. Decided to get semi-radical and removed the tile in case it was leeching something out. I cut back a lot of leafs on the sword that has it's leafs turning brown (far left) and groomed out the one plant on the right in the glass as a pot. What ever that is came from petsmart in a pot. both it and the petsmart sword came in pots. Now I have to decide if should go back to the original 6W CFL or stick with these 13W.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Hard to make a diagnosis. Need close ups of each plant. Reddening, bronzing of leaves is a natural response to high lighting conditions, but you're making it sound like something else is afoot. Are the leaves losing structural integrity? Close ups would be a big help


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

This is a photo I took yesterday, earlier today I trimmed back the taller leafs. The leafs are turning brown with the veins staying greener, but eventually even they darken, the leaf also has an almost opaque thing going on, like the tissue itself is getting thinner. My instincts with land based plants also tell me this is an issue with too much light and the plant is adjusting but I only had two 6W bulbs in there giving me 1.2W per gallon and all I keep reading is you need 2-4W a gallon that tells me I don't have enough lite? Yesterday I put two 13W bulbs in giving me 2.6W a gallon in the range they say you should have. Still my instinct is telling me to put the lower watt bulbs back in. 









The moss balls turning brown I am guessing, as has been mentioned, is the liquid fertilizer I've pulled them out and put them in mason jars.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

A close up shot of one leaf surface would have been better, but I think I can put two and two together based on what you've said...

Good news: it isn't a lighting issue, it is a phosphorous deficiency issue.
Phosphorous deficiency in plants is marked with the yellowing and bro wining of the leaves and darkening of the veins. Older leaves are usually the first to go.
Certain types of substrate are capable of binding phosphates from the water column preventing the plants from utilizing. These substrates will not release the binded phosphates until they are saturated.
Solution: increase your phosphate levels.


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## peachii (Jan 6, 2013)

I am pretty sure that the sword turning "brown" is a red melon/rubin sword plant and is adjusting to your tank and water parameters. That might be wrong but it looks right. Alot of plants are grown emersed, out of water, and need to adjust to being in water when they are bought. This causes melting and some die off but they should recover. I am doubtful it's a light problem, esp since you are doing with really good ferts.

The grassy looking green plant, could you get a closer picture of it for me? I can't tell what it is but it doesn't look like a moss to me but I could be wrong.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Turning brown and sort of transparent sounds like it's melting and should come back eventually but amphirions suggestions sound correct and I would follow that. 

Also, just wanted to comment that the "watt per gallon" rule has long been outdated, not that you would particularly know, just wanted to put that out there. Wattage is just how much electricity is being used, it doesn't necessarily mean that the light is stronger, make sense? I believe color is more important, more or less in these situations.

EDIT: also yeah, with the closer picture of the 'grassy' plant, yeah sorry that's not java moss >.< the first pictures made it look like it. However, I do not believe it is Sagittaria either which would be thicker. Looks more like Micro Sword.


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

Took a close up of it. I really should have written down the name of it, it even had one of those plastic tabs with the name on it. At any rate it did come in a pot and had a pretty good root ball going.









Ok now a question about the phosphate.  I read the bottle of the Brightwell Multinutrient and it doesn't have any phosphorus or nitrogen, just some potasium along with a bunch of other elements. per the bottle it says "our extensive experiance with planted aquarium husbandry has led us to believe that these nutrients ( referring to nitrogen and phosphorus) should be added by the hobbyist when desired."
So I am guessing that if I need to add some phosphate I need to get something else?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Sounds about right. Under normal circumstances, nitrogen and phosphorus should not be limited in the aquarium. I never had a phosphate issue in my years of experience until I utilized volcanic lace rock and Akadama as my substrate. That combo apparently worked to bind all my phosphates completely and I saw many of my beautiful plants melt in the course of 3 weeks. If your flourish is anything like my Akadama, it could be considered as the culprit. Some plants will react quicker to nutrient deficiencies than others. I know many swords are considered iron hogs. 

Here's the nutrient you need: http://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_...uid_Supplements-Seachem-SC5291-FWPCLF-vi.html

I'd also recommend getting the major nutrients separated from the trace--though it looks like your solution is predominantly trace elements + K and Fe. I would personally like to keep the major nutrients from the minors since the majors are consumed more rapidly, leaving excess of traces.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

It's simple they are starving. Plants need nitrate and other food. But nitrates is what planets craze. 

You have a new tank with not fish or any thing. Look into frets.


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

Ok thanks for the help Amphirion and every one else!!! Just order a bottle of the phosphorus and also a bottle of the nitrogen, cause no don't have a fish in there yet and my well water tests 0ppm for nitrates. Since new to this want to get a handle taking care of the plants, then will put a Betta in there.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

Your sward plants will do well if you use insert ferts that go down by the root they are heavy root feeding plants. 

You also need co2 doing wc can add some co2 but the fish will naturally add co2 if you are not dosing it.


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## Morguex (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm looking at the picture of your tank and I don't see a filter or bubbler in there. The water looks very stagnant and still. 

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure the waters needs to be moving around at least a little to spread around the plant nutrients you are adding.

Also we're the tiles glued together and or used? They could be leeching chemicals into the water and posioning the plants.


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

Good point Morguex, has made me think about it, mixing the fert and carbon source in the water. I believe what I will do in the future is do the dosing during a water change. I will put the stuff in the new water and mix real well before I add to the tank. 
Since these plant's are in pots I did look at those fert tabs that you bury in the substrate but the ones I saw they are like the liquid stuff I have now no nitrogen or phosphorous, just potassium.

PS. I did pull the tile out yesterday, I believe they are inert ceramic, but you never know so I pulled them. I had filled the gaps between the tiles with RTV silicon which is the same goop they use to seal the tanks. They were kind of like a mat that just layed on the bottom so was easy to get out. Figured getting rid of it for now at least would eliminate on possible issue.


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## Joey Fish (Jan 26, 2014)

I think your main problem is that the tank is not stocked with fish, snails etc.


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## Rollo (Jan 6, 2014)

My tap (well actually) water has a bit of ammonia right out of the ground, around .25 ppm so there is a nitrogen source via the ammonia already in the water. I have been testing for ammonia every other day hoping to see that the ammonia start to be consumed for it's nitrogen by the plants. Another reason don't want to add a betta just yet. Part of what I am doing here is trying to get some practical experiance with the water chemistry of the plants.


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