# Female Betta and Rams



## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

I'd observed two, unpaired, Rams at the LFS several days ago and decided to add them today to the 10g with the female Betta. She'd been doing quite well with the one other fish in there, although I DID observe some alarming behavior when I went to put in 2 endlers the other day (which is how they ended up in the 5g with the Male that just feels his room has gotten too small but leaves them be). 

The Rams are slightly larger than she is and they very docile. She however is not. I turned the lights off 45m ahead, put the bag in, let it rest. Fed her a bit hoping that would calm her. She watched them through the bag but seemed ok. I've let them out and shes not letting them rest. She's actually chasing the less mellow of the two (from what I'd seen in their tank this one was just more active and interested in stuff). Flaring around her reflection.

The lights are still off.

Should I move them to the 5g?!


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

She gets along great with the angelfish but the rams? no go.


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

Should I move her to the 2.5g temp?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I'd move her and the Angel to the five and the male and the rest to the 10. Two Rams, a male Betta and two Endlers in a five is an accident waiting to happen and incredibly overcrowded. This could lead to the male Betta suffering from a literal ram battering. Also, Endlers are shoalers and as such need at least six. 

That the female Betta was not good with the Endlers was a clue she is not a community Betta. The business with the Rams seals the deal.

You might need to get that larger tank sooner than planned. ;-) Or, you need to set up another 10+ so she and the Angel won't be in the five more more than a week or so.

As an aside, unless you are a purist check out some of the Endlers hybrids. I had Red Tuxedo Endlers hybrids that were gorgeous. 10 males shoaling around were something. Husband liked them *almost* as much as the Neons. LOL


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I'd move her and the Angel to the five and the male and the rest to the 10. Two Rams, a male Betta and two Endlers in a five is an accident waiting to happen and incredibly overcrowded. This could lead to the male Betta suffering from a literal ram battering. Also, Endlers are shoalers and as such need at least six.
> 
> That the female Betta was not good with the Endlers was a clue she is not a community Betta. The business with the Rams seals the deal.
> 
> ...


ugh, more tank adjustments. I'd hoped that with the Rams being same size/larger than she that she'd respond like she did to the angelfish. That the response to the endlers was them being tiny darty fish. But... yeesh. She is tailing them (no pun intended) everywhere. And they have hidey spots! But they're staying out in the open with her. 

Have the 45 gallon on the way! Some time this weekend I hope but that's still a few days too long with what's going on now, and it'll be a few days of setup with substrate, plants and slow fill on water/weight. I planned to get additional endlers after I saw how the Bettas did with them, I didn't expect the male to be the one who's more laid back. 

Love those Red Tuxedo!! I like them more than the Neons. :-D

This is crazy.


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

Now she's getting mad at the angelfish, maybe she'll be a solo 5g girl.

Edit: She's been put in time out while I make adjustments.


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

pnwbetta said:


> Now she's getting mad at the angelfish, maybe she'll be a solo 5g girl.
> 
> Edit: She's been put in time out while I make adjustments.


Well, she's in time out in the 2.5g, which has clean water and lots of plants (it was my plant hangout spot) with a heater and filter so... I feel guilty for removing her from the 10g but as I was already growing concerned about her possible personality tweaks before the Rams, I'm ok with giving her a break from other fish.

I'm leaning towards making the 45g the community tank with the male, since he's doing fine with the endlers, though I will check with the Rams beforehand.

I will probably put her back in the 10g with just a snail and shrimp or two. Or in the 5g... with a snail or shrimp or two. But she wasn't feeling company.


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## Rainbo (Nov 23, 2015)

Just a word of warning, you are likely going to have to either sell the angelfish when it grows up, or put it in a tank with only other angelfish. They are known to be aggressive besides preferrring to swim vertically rather then horizontally, bettas are horizontal swimmers. Angelfish tend to be docile when they are small then develop an attitude once they get large. Amazing Angelfish (Full Article) | Details | Articles | TFH Magazine®


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

They certainly can become aggressive but it's not a given. And I will keep an eye on them and adjust as needed. They will have a taller tank soon to figure it all out in.
Though I have my doubts this particular betta will be in with any of them.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Just so others understand, I know you don't mean she got "mad" in the human sense. However, some do anthropomorphize and believe Betta actually get mad (or sulk or are "brats" or act resentful or whatever) so I'm taking this as a teaching opportunity. Hope you don't mind.

Fish don't get mad. What pnwbetta's girl is doing is maturing sexually and defending her "territory." She is acting normally.

One of the reasons sororities are so deceiving is in the beginning the females are all immature and get along and the sorority seems a success. Then they hit "that" age, as has this girl Betta, and BAM! KAPOW! all bets are off.


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Just so others understand, I know you don't mean she got "mad" in the human sense. However, some do anthropomorphize and believe Betta actually get mad (or sulk or are "brats" or act resentful or whatever) so I'm taking this as a teaching opportunity. Hope you don't mind.
> 
> Fish don't get mad. What pnwbetta's girl is doing is maturing sexually and defending her "territory." She is acting normally.
> 
> One of the reasons sororities are so deceiving is in the beginning the females are all immature and get along and the sorority seems a success. Then they hit "that" age, as has this girl Betta, and BAM! KAPOW! all bets are off.


So true.

I was reading a couple of scientific studies done recently on fish behavior, aggression specifically, and water changes. Basically the new fish don't have their scent in the water, or the water in general doesn't have the scent of each other, so the fish become more aggressive. Even claimed the size of the water change affected the length of time the aggression occurred. Which does make me wonder if G or other fish like her, might be affected as strongly by more established tanks with clear 'zones' and fewer large water changes/water adjustments with new fish.

She doesn't even act aggressive when she sees the other tank (with or without fish in her view), which Jasper (the previous koi Betta) would do. She's such a different fish in her own tank.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I've read such studies, too. Or, should I say, absorbed them? LOL

As said in other posts, I've had a few that weren't community-friendly and it wasn't long before it was apparent. In immature Betta it may take a bit longer but, Boy, Howdy! do they let you know.

One indicator in Betta that have been in community tanks for quite a while (mine for two years) is they start to follow one fish....like a cat stalking prey. No immediate overt aggression but if you know fish you can read the body language. In my case, Dexter fixated on one Chili Rasbora; ignored the other mid-tank dwellers and Chili. I watched and was absolutely mesmerized. As a retired dog trainer/canine behaviorist, behavior in any species fascinates me. Anyhow, netted Dexter and transferred to a tank on his own. 

I did add some Habrosus Cory about a month later and he totally ignored them. Now, when I'm newly-outfitting a tank I always add the bottom dwellers first. Wait a couple of hours, turn the lights on and if the Betta is ignoring the Cory I add the other fish. I use Rachel O'Leary's method of introducing shipped fish so I don't float the bag. All of my fish are shipped.


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## pnwbetta (Dec 6, 2019)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I've read such studies, too. Or, should I say, absorbed them? LOL
> 
> As said in other posts, I've had a few that weren't community-friendly and it wasn't long before it was apparent. In immature Betta it may take a bit longer but, Boy, Howdy! do they let you know.
> 
> ...


Absorbed is right! 

Oh goodness, yes, she let me know. I wonder if the Endler wouldn't have been a better choice given their small size and ability to outswim her.

But she was doing that exact thing with the Ram, going side to side, stalking him, even in the planted areas she'd flush him out and eventually she started attacking him relentlessly - didn't matter where he tried to go she was there pushing him, hunting him, starting to look a little mouthy. Didn't care about anyone else in the tank much, except the angelfish when they came up to investigate, she chased them away and went back to the hunt.

Maybe down the line I'll look at Cory or something, but she's still appearing quite happy in her own little zone. 

Where do you get most of your fish from? And I'll have to go read up on that method. 

I'm wondering too if some of these behaviors aren't tied to where the fish came FROM. Jasper and GG came from the same large chain store, technically Orion came from the same chain but a different store, and he wasn't feeling up to much of anything when I got him. 
The Bettas at my LFS? Live happily with corys, guppy's, angelfish, rams, tetras (of course), swordtails, etc. And all of the other fish I have are from that store, where they get to hang out with each other and other species in the same tank for a bit of time before moving on to their new homes. And I think they all come from the same semi-local breeder. 

I'm not trying to argue nature vs. nurture with the fish world, but there's a lot going on that probably affects them from egg start to where we get them. Including weeks or months spent in a community tank vs. weeks to months in tiny plastic cups, getting jostled around, especially as young fish. I'd be pretty testy after all that too.


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