# Guys, Maine looks SERIOUSLY sick...



## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Okay, he is in a three gallon to which the water is always at 75-76. Cleaned every other day, with tap water conditioner that is not expired, it's the same stuff I always use so not a change of brand either...

I noticed yesterday he was not as active. But he came up for food, even jumped for it, he ate well... He has NO physical signs of anything. Overnight, this happened...

- fins are grey. Like someone used a lighter on him. This is on two fins so far.
- sprinkled with ick. Overnight? Something is definitely wrong...
- more lethargic, and sometimes dashes.
- face seems more sunken??? Never seen this happen. sides of his face seem more sunken than they should be. But no missing scales.
- didn't respond very well to me, until I moved his tank, which then he dashed for the top.

What is going on? what happened? I am going to put him immediately in new clean water (today was cleaning day anyways) with tap water conditioner, and of course a heater (which'll bring it to 78 or so), and an immediate AQ salt bath. That's the only thing I can think of!

Sorry for bad quality pictures, camera broke and all I have is an ipod that has terrible picture-taking ability >< please help! first picture is the before, what he SHOULD look like. Next are the ones of him relaxing at the top with his condition!


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

This doesn't look good. Check out this thread and see if his symptoms match up:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=76747&highlight=mystery+disease
Put him in a small container with AQ salt (1 tsp per gallon) and either stresscoat or tannins (from oak or IAL leaves) in the mean time.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Poor fella...how old is he......how much aquarium salt are you using and do you have any tannins you can add.....and you can see Ich...correct....

Good that you QT him-I would premix some treatment water and do a full 10 day treatment, lights out-quiet location, offer small frequent meals....

With sudden changes like this....usually it is related to a toxic substance-from either the air, hands...etc.....and if it happened within 24h of a water change it could be osmotic shock and often they don't recover from that.....when I suspect osmotic shock I like to use Epsom salt 3tsp/gal and tannins for comfort.....

Keep us posted.....


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

It matches that thread ;( But it's weird because... it just... overnight?! And, yeah, he is blue... coincides with the thread. What causes it? he is a super healthy high immune system betta, like Spartan! And it doesn't look furry...just... like he was in a fire, without the edges being singed.


I have him right now on .5 tsp, slowly going to add it to be 1 tsp of salt. He is only a young guy - maybe 14 months. So it is not like it should be of age? (Unless I am lucky to get the 4-7 year range with most of my other bettas...) 

I will note that there is something in my room that I am allergic to. And that too, happened overnight. I have been sneezing like 4-6 times in a row, don't have a cold, and ONLY in my room... Luckily I have my betta baby spawn mostly covered. But if it is something in the room I may shut off everything (filters and such) momentarily and clean the heck out of that room, for anything that could be causing a problem. I don't have everyone with lids because some just do not jump. No one is displaying any odd symptoms, but I don't want to risk it.

If it is something in the room what do I do??

I never had him with anyone else, because he is a mean boy. So no one else is at risk if it is contagious. And I have had tannins, maracyn two, and all that being shipped since Madame's dropsy death. they should be here in a week - but that's too late by then. We have no oak trees... Are there any other types of leaves I could use?? other than almond or oak?


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

Poor guy, I don't think any of the fish in the thread made it through, but perhaps he'll be lucky! In a pinch you can use decaf green tea (plain green tea, no added flavors and must be decaf!). But it doesn't work as well as IAL or oak leaves so you might as well just hold off on it for now. If you have stresscoat you could use that, it has soothing properties in it. Have there been any new chemicals in your room (laundry detergents, soaps of any kind, etc)?

*edit* nobody has been able to figure out exactly what causes it yet, but it doesn't appear to be contagious. Continue to watch his fins, if the disintegration stops then he might make it, but it took most of the fish in 24 hours.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Indyfishy said:


> Poor guy, I don't think any of the fish in the thread made it through, but perhaps he'll be lucky! In a pinch you can use decaf green tea (plain green tea, no added flavors and must be decaf!). But it doesn't work as well as IAL or oak leaves so you might as well just hold off on it for now. If you have stresscoat you could use that, it has soothing properties in it. Have there been any new chemicals in your room (laundry detergents, soaps of any kind, etc)?
> 
> *edit* nobody has been able to figure out exactly what causes it yet, but it doesn't appear to be contagious. Continue to watch his fins, if the disintegration stops then he might make it, but it took most of the fish in 24 hours.


Nothing new in my room. But even my nose is telling me something is up x.x There has been 0 chemical or cleaning spills, no laundry detergents, soaps, nothing. Never cleaned his or anyone else's tanks or bowls with cleaner, always use warm to hot water with a quick rinse down. 

I saw in the thread... they say to give them to the university for testing and such... How does that work? And where could I go? I mean, my bf is in the university here I could ask about if anyone wants to do something on the research but it is a super long shot. 

I could never have him with other fish because he is fiercely mean. Last time he was with Spartan and the little poop magician like made it to the other side. So he was permanently by himself. He isn't even a tail biter..
I don't want to lose another fish


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

Send a private message to DarkMoon17, she will tell you how/where to send his body for research if he does die. Have there been any new dechlorinators opened up, or even new fish food? sometimes those can cause allergies. I'm so sorry, this is absolutely terrible =(


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Nope. Same pellets, same dechlorinator.  I make sure not to change the types or the brands because I know some bettas are finicky. He is still eating, and when I get him to come up he acts normal. Right now he is resting between the wall and the heater.


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

Even if it is the same brand, were there any bottles that just got opened? There could be something wrong in the batch you got. Unlikely, but possible X(. Try PMing DarkMoon17 for advice on what medications you can try on him, she's a vet and she's done alot of research on these things =)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I pm'd her.

And this one has been used since last week. No one has really gotten sick from it. Only other sicknesses, was Madame - which the cory disappeared and polluted the water and she got the blunt force of it. 

No one else got sick, I did a 75% water change in that tank (20 gallon sorority). Everyone is acting normal, and my two rescues are healing well for their fins. Fry have been fine, the strongest surviving as usual... Other than that there wasn't any other illnesses, nothing similar. I do not have another blue male, but others have blue on them. I'm going to shut off everything, cover everyone, and make sure nothing in that room is the cause as a just in case...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

A question... I dont think it would work. My bf suggested it. If i cannot find preservative can I freeze him or will this cause problems?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Freezing will damage cellular structure


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks. That is what I thought. Bettas I will note are fragile when dead. Actually, most small fish are.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

No, it's not that. Freezing just damages cellular structure. Even in humans and other animals, lol


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

Okay, I'm just passing this on. 1fish2fish had a female that developed this in 14 hours? I think. She got a diagnosis elsewhere that it's just a different type of columnaris involving necrotic tissue. Their recommendation was treatment with either Kanamycin or Neomycin. Both are antibiotics. Seachem markets both under the name Kanaplex and Neoplex. If you can find them, they might help. But this is usually EXTREMELY fast moving. But IF you wanna try, amazon carries both.


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

I can't help with the mystery disease (I hope I never have to deal with that  ) but I know that they will catch ich from too cold, and dirty water. It sounds like your water is on the cooler side, so I'm thinking whatever the disease is, lowered his immune system and he caught ich more easily.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Oops I forgot to write get well soon D:...forum baleeted my comment.

GET WELL SOON!


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Like Vaygirl said I was told on another forum and by several IBC members that what my fish had was Columnaris and that the darkened tissue was necrosed.. there is nothing that is going to help that. You can TRY to stop the spread and hope the dead tissue falls off however.

However I'm not positive that is columnaris since he is exhibiting none of the other symptoms. You might consider searching for other causes of tissue necrosis in fish.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

@1fish2fish- did you attempt treating her with anything? 

@Sena Hansler- Freezing won't work since water (and most animals are made of mostly water) expands when frozen and will destroy tissue. You would need a biopsy jar from your local vet. They should be able to send it out for testing though that would be expensive....

I doubt columnaris since he doesn't have any visible bacterial colonies. From what I can find the most likely cause is an internal fungal infection. Do you know if there has been any history of mold/fungus in your house? Is it a new or old house? There may be a mold source somewhere in your room causing you to sneeze and _possibly_ causing your boy's problem... That's a bit of a stretch though... If you can get API Triple Sulfa or Kanamycin it may be worth a try depending on his condition. If he is too weak then stick to Aquarium Salt and tannins.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

When I got home 4 of my eight girls were dead (this was only 18ish hours since I'd last checked on them and they were fine). I took the 3 live ones with obvious signs of columnaris and treated with a marycin 1 and 2 combo but all three were dead by the next morning. By the time I caught it it was too late.

I have one survivor who never showed any symptoms. Treated her with neomycin for 1 week (I think.. could have been two) as a precaution. She's healthy and thriving.

Here's the girl Janine was talking about. Neither of the other two had the necrosis but 3 of the dead ones did upon inspection.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Too late to get those medications. Almond leaves came in the maio today so i put some in. Heated to 78. He has NEVER had a problem, no ich... And overnight powdered with ich? A few spots sure... But that bad?? It's just... Weird  and saddening I get to watch him die...

This is a new house (within 7 years) no mold or fungus recorded or known of. The two huge almond leaves I put in make the visual on him hard :lol:


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

He is still alive but it has spread some more. On his tail it has gone yellow though... and stops before the base. He is a little more active, and he is STILL eating. I left the two leaves in there and he uses them as a shelter... I up'd the AQ salt to 3 tsp (1.5 per gallon I guess). I really hope he doesn't die


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

He's a tough little guy, that's good. Still eating is a very good sign. Keep it up with the Aq. Salt and IAL... Water changes are important too but only do small amounts. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Came home after work. Definitely tough... He now lingers near the middle, does less dashing and frantic movements - not very active but not lying on the bottom! Tomorrow I will do a water change - maybe 50%. how long can the leaves stay in btw? 

Whatever this is, it came fast but I'm really determined not to lose another betta  especially him


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## inkrealm (May 15, 2011)

oh dear... did you happen to notice his body changing color at all before the fins got the "burnt" appearance? or did he look normal that night?.... 
I'm glad your boy seems to be responding/.... just fresh water and Almond leaves? keep us posted... <3 I'm glad he sounds like he's staying tough and fighting it....


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Inkrealm, nothing changed. His fins were shown off as he always does - body same color fins same color. A little less active but that was the only sign... It has now spread across most of his two affected fins. Even everything had to have shut down in order for ich to powder overnight - I have never seen that severity in such a short time... Plus a sunken face? I'm still baffled. 

But he has stopped breathing hard, looks more relaxed... 

Just a really random question someone brought up to me. If that is the only infected area, to avoid spread couldn't you trim off the infected area? 'course I'd never do that :lol: but the question did have some sense I guess.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

With larger animals we would amputate the dead tissue... but I don't think that would be a great plan with a small fish. In theory it would be a good idea though.

Are there any live plants in his tank?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

No live plants. He didn't have anything he could get snagged on, nothing that decomposed - I cannot figure it out. And the ich won't go away! Did a water change for him, adjustable heater turned up more. The "grey" is now more black, an is affecting all of his fins asides from pectoral. Not on the body yet. Just the two almond leaves in the tank... he likes them for cover.

A question.. would it hurt to give him something more solid, to dislodge ich? or does it just remove scales? He seemed pretty frantic attempting to scrape of the bugs - but everything in there is rounded or soft.

Yeah, well I thought they had the right sense... only on the fins, take away the infected part. But that is tricky, clove oil is needed to sedate them, and making sure fin rot and any other infection stays at bay would be higher than usual. And plus never heard of anyone actually trying - so why risk it?


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## inkrealm (May 15, 2011)

Blues seem to be getting some weird stuff lately  glad he seems to be doing wlel all things considered though.... as far as the removal thing---- apparently, fish don't have feeling in the fins, so technically speaking, I guess as long as it wasn't too close to the body, it's a legit idea. maybe in a lab setting in an attempt to find a cure.... but I wouldn't want to risk it with my boy  
I was curious because I have a blue as well and he mimicked the behavior of your poor baby last night to a T. his body even looked almost like your guy's does... however he didn't have anything I could see on the fins. though they've never looked too incredibly happy... x-x; still I'd think the ashen look would be hard to miss. if your boy does have the Mystery Disease by chance, it is exciting to hear positive feedback... 
I hope he keeps fighting! ^-^ <3 
with the solid thing I'd be really cautious... I'm not sure if they /can/ scrape them off... if you decide to try, watch him really close the entire time it's in tank.... he might rub himself raw  
I think the ich takes some time to start falling off, too.... from what I understand what heating up the water to high levels (low to mid eighties) does, is quicken their life cycle... so they grow up and die off quickly. I also remember reading something about them releasing the fish to try and escape... but I can't remember if that was salt or heat...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah, a salt and heat treatment. Heat makes the cycle go faster, salt dehydrates and kills free swimming ones. constant cleaning keeps them from breeding. So that is my goal, along with figuring out if my boy will end up dying, or lose all his fins or what. So far he has lasted a very long time (day three) and appears to be recovering immune system wise, just not fins or appearance...


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## inkrealm (May 15, 2011)

well the immune system is definitely a good sign... if that recovers maybe he'll be able to fight whatever this is off... after that he'll have to regrow his fins I'm sure D: but he should be able to do that no worries if he gets rid of the disease itself...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If only I knew what it was. Obviously outside, so AQ salt a definite. Plus the ich needs to be removed. I hope he gets better


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## inkrealm (May 15, 2011)

Sena- me too  he sounds like he's got a good fighting chance though.... don't give up  <3 you're definitely doing all the right things you can.. and he sounds like he's improving... so he hasn't given up either...


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## EverythingNice55 (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh dear..... I hope your betta gets better soon..


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

When my Madame got dropsy, she held on for a few days. I kinda wish they didn't truthfully - if there is no chance they will survive in the end. But if he has a chance by all means >< if not... why drag it out??? :-(


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## inkrealm (May 15, 2011)

Sena- I guess the thing is we can't know for sure... :/ 
but I think as long as the fish isn't giving up we shouldn't either.... it sounds like your boy has made it obvious he wants to try and fight it... so we should allow him to and help him all we can, right?...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's true. Well if he pulls through just shows maybe breeding him before was not a waste of time as some may think... That immune system better be passed on :lol:


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## inkrealm (May 15, 2011)

Sena- haha, that's definitely a tough fish.  that immune system would be a plus. :3 I wish pet store breeders would try to follow that breeding. wouldn't that be something


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

-aighs- unfortunately despite the ich going away, and him not sitting on the bottom but rather the top, I may say it is game over for him. 

"It" has spread to his body and surely by tomorrow 50% of his body shall be covered, or he will be dead. I do have stuff from Madame's death coming in like Maracyn but as always, it will be too late for anything. 90% of his fins are grey and black, there literally is nothing else to do. AQ salt, almond leaves and clean water might have prolonged it... but he is a goner. I just know it.

A question, for if tomorrow it does progress as I say, how to euthanize... without a hammer. or clove oil. Any fast, non (or not too) painful ways? I cannot bring myself to use a hammer, and clove oil is being shipped (ALWAYS too late)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Oh, my poor Maine. He has pineconed. ZERO bloating. Just... Scales out. Poor baby  already saying it.. R.i.p.


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## Indyfishy (May 31, 2010)

I am soooo soooooo sorry Sena, I had hoped he would pull through. If he's pineconing, it sounds like you won't need to worry about euthanasia, it probably won't be long now =(


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i'm sorry about Maine. it does sound like the Mystery Illness they talked about. 1Fish2Fish seems to have found a mixture of meds that works, so i'd get what she suggested, in case anyone else gets it. and, sterilize his tank and decor with scalding water, and if you can, diluted bleach. x: that's a nasty illness.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I've put him out of his misery. I'm so sad  i'm documenting everything during the illness, and steps taken, time length of progression etc... 

This is probably going to keep me away from blue bettas...


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## BettaMiah (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry, Sena.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

do not know if anyone who had the mystery illness attack their betta did what I just did... Took a closer look. Infected fins turn the water black to small parts of water, much like decay. Part of body attacked was indented - like a flesh eating disease would, *but under the scales as all scales were intact.* it is double the roughness of regular un-infected scales. Fins falling apart. On the right side, showed scales actually forming on the base of the dorsal fin (darn camera had to break during this time!) and the dorsal fin... A piece un-infected has been grown INTO the scales of the body, just on the edge. He stopped eating only this evening and pineconed less than 6 hours.

Anyone want to use that info go for it. It's going to be kept by me, every detail, water change, etc.

An added note.. Gills both a clean and healthy pink.


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## jfw (Oct 22, 2011)

R.I.P. I think its wonderful if you can take his passing not as a loss but an end to a fulfilled life that hopefully with the documentation that you have provided might shed light on the disease and help in the future to potentially combat it!

Sorry for your loss. We all know how it is to lose a pet, at least he isn't suffering any longer.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

jfw said:


> R.I.P. I think its wonderful if you can take his passing not as a loss but an end to a fulfilled life that hopefully with the documentation that you have provided might shed light on the disease and help in the future to potentially combat it!
> 
> Sorry for your loss. We all know how it is to lose a pet, at least he isn't suffering any longer.



Thanks. At least he is not suffering. But, I am leaning towards internal problem, maybe not a parasite - but something that breaks down tissue... Like degenerstive disorder, or something. Whatever it is I have his time line. He has babies - one of the males is definitely MJ... Maine Junior...

Never know, but if that ever (slim chance) happens to another one of my bettas I do want to try "amputating" the infected fin, or by then will have a solution.


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## EverythingNice55 (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh no..... I'm so sorry. You tried, and I admired that. And you also put him out of his misery. R.I.P


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Dropsy is a symptom.. Doesn't have to have bloat to go along with it. Dropsy just means that the kidneys and other major organs are shutting down


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know but so used to seeing bloating as a secondary symptom next to dropsy. 

And thanks guys... Guess he is just one I could not save


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

The blackening you saw is tissue necrosis, which means decay, so its not surprising what you saw.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah figured the decay.. But the indent of the damaged part ofthe body, looked dead, but had scales intact? I still think it was something attackig the tissue...  never ever seen that before. Poor guy! He was Basically slowly dying...


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm so sorry about your boy, you both put up a good fight. 

And thank you for putting together such detailed notes. If you can PM me with them I will add it to the ongoing post on VIN (Veterinary Information Network) to see if it helps them diagnose this. Dropsy was probably a result of the actual infection shutting down organs...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah, which then I knew he was just going to suffer for what... an hour? 6 hours? 12 hours? 24 hours? Instead of letting it progress and him being in pain (which I am sure with all that it would be painful) I ended it 

and ok darkmoon I shall


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I am going to add the pictures of right after he was put down. This was the progression. Again sorry for the bad quality, it is my ipod camera. and it sucks.

I have never ever seen anything this bad... I mean I have seen what fur coat is, I have seen ich, SBD, minor-severe fin rot, missing scales and torn skin, pop-eye, pineconing, fin biting, minor-severe mouth fungus... But this? This is crazy.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

yeah, that looks like the same thing 1fish2fish's females had. x: poor baby. i saw your thread on meds, you might wanna take her advice and see if you can't get the meds she used, as a just-in-case. x:


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Definitely will!!!


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