# How often do you clean your Betta fish tank??



## bettafishbeauty (May 18, 2013)

Don't change your betta to often. For one gallon of water, change once a week, 2 gallons, every two weeks, 3 gallons, every 3 weeks & so on.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Even though your technique has some logic to it, it's actually not correct.

There is a sticky in the Betta Habitat section on how often you should clean your water. But all tanks should be cleaned once a week, tanks under 10 gallons, twice a week. Here's the info if you want to read it: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115758


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Even my 180L tank had 30% weekly water changes. 
I change 50-90% everyday, every second day if I'm lazy because my tanks are quite small and some are full of fish. I dont want ammonia and nitrite building up and making my fish sick


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I second the approach of Trilobite. Betta fish prefer pristine water conditions.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't change my water more than once a month any more, but I change out at least 80% when I do. It's been about 3 years since I stopped with the weekly water changes. My betta/frog tank doesn't get changed or a couple months some times. One would think my tank would have imploded by now...


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

There's no way I could successfully keep my fish happy AND healthy if I only changed their 3G tanks every 3 weeks. Way too much waste buildup IMO.


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## Backlash (Jan 9, 2012)

bettafishbeauty said:


> Don't change your betta to often. For one gallon of water, change once a week, 2 gallons, every two weeks, 3 gallons, every 3 weeks & so on.


WTF... If that were true, I would only need to do a water change on my 100 gal. 3 times a year... lol..

And here I am wasting presious water and time doing 30%+ water changes every week... lol.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Rosewynn said:


> There's no way I could successfully keep my fish happy AND healthy if I only changed their 3G tanks every 3 weeks. Way too much waste buildup IMO.


There's no way to know that without trying. There was a time I would have said the same thing.

MTS eat fish poop, by the way.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

jaysee said:


> There's no way to know that without trying. There was a time I would have said the same thing.
> 
> MTS eat fish poop, by the way.
> 
> ...


I have gone 2 weeks during a vacation and I came back to a lot of dirty water. So you are right, there's no way I'll ever find out what 3 weeks would look like.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

bettafishbeauty said:


> Don't change your betta to often. For one gallon of water, change once a week, 2 gallons, every two weeks, 3 gallons, every 3 weeks & so on.


There are far too many factors not taken into account by this theory, such as filtration, tankmates, planting etc. 
Don't be guided by rules of thumb. Be guided by ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings from an accurate test kit.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

It's not just waste and ammonia/nitrates that you remove with water changes. I'm pretty sure things like TDS come into play as well. 

I like to do small but frequent water changes with the bettas I keep. This is because they prefer very specific conditions, and if I left it to the end of the month and then did a massive water change I would probably shock them.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I have a number of betta in 2.5g containers. If I changed the water every 2.5 weeks Im pretty sure they would be very dead or at least very sick. I change the water 100% every 3 days and it is filthy enough for me to know an ammonia spike could on its way if I wait any longer. In my 33g sorority that would mean 6 month plus period between water changes. I cannot imagine what that would look like.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

logisticsguy said:


> I change the water 100% every 3 days and it is filthy enough for me to know an ammonia spike could on its way if I wait any longer.


Explain to me why an ammonia spike would be on its way?? The only way that could possibly be the case is if your tank is not cycled. Ammonia spikes are NEVER a concern in a cycled tank, unless you are adding fish or you make the mistake if throwing out your media.


As for filthy water - if there are particulates in the water, then that is an indication that your filtration is inadequate. Plain and simple.



Bettas are no more difficult to keep than any other fish. You can create as much work as you like in keeping them, but that doesn't change anything. They aren't these fragile creatures that are going to die if you look at them wrong. I can't even count how many people mention the threat of their bettas dying - like I started with, the only way that could happen is if your tank is not cycled, which EVERY tank ought to be. Yes, even the tiny "tanks". 


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## wish4coner (Mar 22, 2013)

Okay, that might work for you but it would never sit right with me. First, 1 gallon, unless quarantined, IMHO is too small. Letting it go a week is a lot of stress on the fish. i have some in 2.5 gallon but, I have sponge filters and a heater, and one ghost shrimp. I still siphon the bottom out, with a turkey baster, every day. I use IAL and Prime.
I can't imagine letting them go a full week, let alone 3 weeks, without a cleaning. Unless you are talking good filtration, including plants (which are hard in a one gallon), I don't understand this advise at all. 

This is just my opinion but, I certainly wouldn't want conditions like that to live in. Whatever works for you, however are fine.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The most deadliest things in the aquarium water are things you can not see. Going a very long time (too long) such as 2+ weeks without a water change, then doing a large water change puts the fish at a very high risk of going into a deadly shock as the chemistry just changed greatly. Along with putting your tank at risk for a crash which will also kill the fish within hours. It's a deadly game being played and all may look good.. but it's not. No animal will survive on fish waste alone, and filters only hide the waste from view, not remove it. Gills being used also creates ammonia, not just the waste and food products. 

Only time I have seen tanks be able to go without the water changes are in tanks that are specifically set up with certain types/amount of live plants, substrate, etc. It is very highly recommended to do weekly water changes.. it's something that has been recommended for so very very long.. it's not enthusiasts just being careful, it's vital.

On the flip side, water can be too pristine and would not benefit the fish either.. it's a balancing act, why the person who wrote the water change thread recommends what she does - a 4 decade long research, with her knowledge and education behind her she had come up with what she did that would give the aquariums the best balance. I highly suggest following it or being close to following those recommendations.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I change the water in my 2.5g containers every 3 days because there is no way that they are cycled and quickly getting filthy as they have no filter. As far as a cycled 33g goes yeah certainly not every 3 days but once a week a 50% wc works fine for me and I always remove a enough waste with the vac to know its worth doing even though I run 1 hob, 2 large sponge and lots of plants. I follow the wc schedule from OFL thread and maybe even go further but that's my choice. Your quote _"like I started with, the only way that could happen is if your tank is not cycled, which EVERY tank ought to be. Yes, even the tiny "tanks"._ I have great difficulty getting my head around how you can get a stable cycle in 2.5g unfiltered containers. Please explain your method for getting these to a stable cycle. How often do you think I should change the water in these containers?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

My method for maintaining a cycle is to use a filter....

If you do not use a filter, then you may have to do frequent changes to keep the fish alive. It's just far easier to use a filter, and better for the fish as it provides more stable water parameters.

There is this myth that small tanks can't be cycled - no idea where this originated, but it is just that - a myth. Even without a filter, assuming that there is substrate and decor in the tank, there will be bacteria living on every surface. Assuming that the fish swims around, there will be some circulation of water. Too, if there is a heater, there will be some circulation of water.


As for deadly shock from going 2 weeks without a water change - more fear mongering. I change at least 80% of my water every 4-6 weeks. My 125 has more than $500 worth of fish in it - not something I would "risk" losing over and over and over again.

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## sareena79 (Sep 10, 2012)

I cleaned my 2g tank once a week (100% b/c it was unfiltered but did have a plant in it) but my new 5g gets 50% once a week (filtered, no live plants) 
Chumlee seems alot happier and healthier than Sushi did but I think alot of that has to do with age too....theres no way that Ida let my 2g go 2wks tho, and Im not sure Id let my 5g go that long either unless it was just a one time thing b/c of vacation or something. just my 2 cents worth....


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

bettafishbeauty said:


> Don't change your betta to often. For one gallon of water, change once a week, 2 gallons, every two weeks, 3 gallons, every 3 weeks & so on.


I agree that a betta fish can have it's water changed too often. The water changes are stressfull and it is possible to make a tank too clean. However, your suggestion is an over simplification. 

I have two cycled 5 gallon and one 8 gallon cycled tanks. Since I cycled by tanks, I have to monitor them to make sure the nitrATEs do not drop too low (below 5ppm) or rise too high (above 50ppm). I have seen nitrATEs go from 0ppm to 50ppm in 5 weeks while cycling all 3 of my tanks (that was the sign that my tanks where fully cycled), so I already know I can't leave my tanks running on auto pilot for 5-8 weeks and keep my nitrATE levels under control. 

A quick 25% water change brings the levels back down to 10ppm. Then they are back up to 20ppm by the next week and I do the 25% water change to bring them back down to 10ppm. However, I can't do more than a 25% water change once a week or I will bring my nitrATE levels below 5ppm. I have to put this much thought into 1 parameter. You don't want to know how long this response can get if I really break down all the aspects of my tanks. 

I know what I do with my tank can't speak for every tank on the planet. But it is the reason I disagree with leaving a 5 gallon tank untouched for 5 weeks or an 8 gallon untouched for 8 weeks.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

jaysee said:


> Bettas are no more difficult to keep than any other fish. You can create as much work as you like in keeping them, but that doesn't change anything. They aren't these fragile creatures that are going to die if you look at them wrong. I can't even count how many people mention the threat of their bettas dying - like I started with, the only way that could happen is if your tank is not cycled, which EVERY tank ought to be. Yes, even the tiny "tanks".
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Well that really depends on what betta species you keep. I have species that require extremely soft and acidic water. The pH of the water in their native home can be as low as 3-4, and dissolved mineral content is usually negligible. 

Without those conditions they are liable to sicken or become extremely stressed. Even captive bred fish can only tolerate a narrow window of parameters. They are some of the most difficult species of betta to own. 

If I left their tanks to the end of the month and then did a huge 80% water change with water straight from the tap, I would probably stress them all out because the water conditions are so incredibly different between the tank and the tap. 

I would rather people have their water too clean than too dirty. Most betta owners choose not to cycle their tanks because it is easier to do water change than wait the four or so weeks for a tank to fully cycle. 

A filter makes things easier yes, but there is no right or wrong way of keeping fish as long as your methods ensure you are meeting their basic needs.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Well that really depends on what betta species you keep.
> 
> Most betta owners choose not to cycle their tanks because it is easier to do water change than wait the four or so weeks for a tank to fully cycle.


I agree, not all species are the same. However, the vast majority are of the betta spendens complex.

Perhaps most betta keepers that don't keep other tanks with a variety of other fish "choose not to cycle" their tanks. 
But your statement perfectly illustrates my point, which is that it seems that many of the betta keepers (versus fish keepers) don't understand the nitrogen cycle and how it works. For starters, the cycle is GOING to happen. That's just nature. The only way to prevent it from happening is to constantly clean everything and change the media all the time....which it seems is what many of them prefer to do. I can't for the life of me understand why someone would actively inhibit the cycle, unless they simply don't understand it. They cycle is your friend!

They don't want to wait 4-6 weeks for the tank to properly cycle?? That seems awful selfish if you ask me, and it goes against the "I want what's best for my betta" mantra. What's best for a fish is a cycled tank. Period. But this is the kicker - after they've kept up on this rigorous water changing regimen for a couple of months, they HAVE a cycle! What they do is called a fish-in cycle in the world of fish keeping. Its one of the ways to cycle a tank, albeit widely accepted as cruel and unnecessary. The difference is that fish keepers recognize that they have a cycle and relax, while betta keepers continue to be afraid that their fish are going to die and keep it up indefinitely.

I think betta keepers need to spend some time talking with fish keepers.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

It's not selfish, just another way of doing things. I am sure there are plenty of people out there with bettas who are perfectly healthy and happy living in uncycled tanks. 

None of my tanks are cycled because the pH is way too low and inhibits the growth of beneficial bacteria, and my fish do fine. 

My bettas in cycled tanks keeled over just as easily as the bettas in non-cycled tanks. I never had a splendens live past two years no matter how well I cared for them or what kind of environment I housed them in.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm both a betta keeper and a fish keeper. My tanks have all been cycled, always. However, I don't think it is right to generalise about betta keepers that way - plenty of people on here understand the cycle. In the small tanks bettas often live in, the cycle is proven to be unstable, as even months after a nitrate reading shows up, an ammonia reading may still appear. It's not scare-mongering - it's just what the test kits show. Further, many betta-keepers simply don't use filters, as a lot of long-fin bettas seem to struggle with the current. Again, not my method, but it's what works for these guys. With no movement other than the lazy and sporadic swimming of a betta, surely the bacteria in the substrate simply aren't getting the circulation they need?

And whilst I disagree with fish-in cycling in the general sense, for a lot of people, it's unavoidable. For instance: I ended up in a situation where I had two unexpected female guppies, and the only place to put them was in a 5 gallon with a female betta. She was constantly harassing them, so I had to put them into my new 16 gallon simply to give them room to get away from her. Sure, I seeded the tank, but I still had to do a fish-in cycle because the alternative was worse.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

jaysee said:


> Explain to me why an ammonia spike would be on its way?? The only way that could possibly be the case is if your tank is not cycled. Ammonia spikes are NEVER a concern in a cycled tank, unless you are adding fish or you make the mistake if throwing out your media.
> 
> 
> As for filthy water - if there are particulates in the water, then that is an indication that your filtration is inadequate. Plain and simple.
> ...


Actually it's pretty safe to assume many of the tanks have improper filtration. I say this as a betta/fish keeper who has had many tanks with improper filters at first. Many sets sold for less then 20 gallons are sold with filters that aren't really adequate. 2 of my aqueon tanks sold with such filters had to rip apart the filter and alter them ghetto rgged style to hold a cycle properly and my 2.5 minibow really acts like a non cylced tank and needs more frequent water changes because it's maybe not possible to alter this filter. I can honestly say the larger tanks surely hold a better cycle and this is not exactly because they are larger bt more because I had to put more time and thought into the filter for them and made sure of things I was not aware of when I first purchased the smaller tanks. So perhaps a good amount of "betta" advice is based upon improper filtration. My first properly set up tank(great filter plus tranferred BB) was a shocker. I kept testing everything daily and was completly thrown when it always came back as 0-0-0 ph ~7 lol


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

If the tank is heated, then there is movement of water.

In all the forums I've been a part of, I've not seen one condone what amounts to keeping a betta in a bowl. Obviously it's been deemed acceptable here - I guess because there are enough people that do it that that makes it okay. I don't know if its just the demographics or what, but go and join a regular fish forum, say you have a betta in an unfiltered 1 gallon "tank" and see what they say....


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Just because I don't see an issue with uncycled tanks, doesn't mean I am all for throwing a betta in a 1 gallon bowl. In a perfect world bettas would live in cycled, heated 5-10 gallon tanks. But unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world and as long as the basic needs of the fish are being met this is what matters most. 

Also if the demographics of this forum offend you so much, why even bother posting here? 

You are coming across very much as 'my way or the highway' and in fishkeeping there is no one way of doing things.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Just because I don't see an issue with uncycled tanks, doesn't mean I am all for throwing a betta in a 1 gallon bowl. In a perfect world bettas would live in cycled, heated 5-10 gallon tanks. But unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world and as long as the basic needs of the fish are being met this is what matters most.
> 
> Also if the demographics of this forum offend you so much, why even bother posting here?
> 
> You are coming across very much as 'my way or the highway' and in fishkeeping there is no one way of doing things.


But it's true! This forum does simplify the cycle for newer users unless they truly dig through EVERYTHING. I had to keep refering to another forum that was for general fish keeping and ADF keeping to get info on how to alter a filter to keep a cycle . I am gatefull for that and I'm sure many other keepers would be if it was offered but I haven't seen it since I've been on here. Understanding filters and proper cycles is key and highly non reported on here. But it should be talked about.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

This forum is suppose to be a safe place for all our members to share their advise and what I am hearing is Not safe advise for all our members more like bashing the forum and being snarky. I would like to remind you that we now have a feedback area in tropicalfishkeeping.com and members are more than welcome to use that area if you feel this forum does not offer enough advise for the more advanced fish keepers do feel free to share your Feedback and Suggestions there. Here is the link to that area in case you do not know where is it.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...suggestions-feedback-area-178770/#post2055794


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Perseusmom said:


> This forum is suppose to be a safe place for all our members to share their advise and what I am hearing is Not safe advise for all our members more like bashing the forum and being snarky. I would like to remind you that we now have a feedback area in tropicalfishkeeping.com and members are more than welcome to use that area if you feel this forum does not offer enough advise for the more advanced fish keepers do feel free to share your Feedback and Suggestions there. Here is the link to that area in case you do not know where is it.
> 
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...suggestions-feedback-area-178770/#post2055794


I must not even be a member. I have to sign into this again and I'm completely unfamiliar with this site?? Maybe this should be better explained in a complete way as I never knew about the other part of ths website.... or whatever it is.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think it's like a sister site/Bettafish.com is a part of the main TropicalFishKeeping site. I never quite understood the relationship either.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Agent13 said:


> I must not even be a member. I have to sign into this again and I'm completely unfamiliar with this site?? Maybe this should be better explained in a complete way as I never knew about the other part of ths website.... or whatever it is.


I too have wondered about this. Sometimes when I get e-mails about threads I am subscribed to the link will be for that site and ask me to log in. Is that the main site and this a sister site? If there's a thread addressing this please point me towards it and forgive me!


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Agent13 tropicalfishkeeping.com is like a the parent site to Betta Forum, yes you have to sign into it with the same user name and password that you use here, you are a member on both sites. I can understand how you feel as when I first became a member here on Betta Forum I did not know we also had another site that we were members on and it does take some getting used to. Take all the time you need to become familiar with it, they have many areas there that we do not have here and I have been really enjoying getting used it to myself.

You are all members I am sorry some of have been confused and hope you will check it out, its really exciting to have both sites that we can use.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Perseusmom said:


> Agent13 tropicalfishkeeping.com is like a the parent site to Betta Forum, yes you have to sign into it with the same user name and password that you use here, you are a member on both sites. I can understand how you feel as when I first became a member here on Betta Forum I did not know we also had another site that we were members on and it does take some getting used to. Take all the time you need to become familiar with it, they have many areas there that we do not have here and I have been really enjoying getting used it to myself.


Thank you! I wish I had known about this long ago as I would have delvd deeper into this. I am a caretaker of fare more then Bettas and I am super happy to find there is more specific possibly more dynamic advice available! Thank you!


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Thanks for your questions, there is no thread about our parent or sister TFK site here on BF that I know of but I will check about getting one posted here so more members that do not know or are confused about TFK can get more information about that site.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Your most welcome Agent13 , I hope you enjoy exploring all the areas and information we have there !

Most welcome Rosewynn ...I hope you enjoy TFK :-D


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Ahh, thanks.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Just because I don't see an issue with uncycled tanks, doesn't mean I am all for throwing a betta in a 1 gallon bowl. In a perfect world bettas would live in cycled, heated 5-10 gallon tanks. But unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world and as long as the basic needs of the fish are being met this is what matters most.
> 
> Also if the demographics of this forum offend you so much, why even bother posting here?
> 
> You are coming across very much as 'my way or the highway' and in fishkeeping there is no one way of doing things.


Haha I think you've got me all wrong. I don't care how anyone else keeps their fish/tanks - I'm not the one that has to look at them or maintain them. I am not offended by the demographics, just trying to understand why the prevailing view is what it is, because it is unique.

My intentions are not to change anyone's mind - that is impossible to do. People change their own minds. I bother posting to present a different point of view, because I believe that it is important to the hobby and to TFK that people are offered more than one. 

There are no shortage of people advocating the same point of view - nearly everyone who posted in this thread said more or less the same exact thing. Insinuating that I refrain from posting because I don't share the group point of view is what comes across as "my way or the highway". Of course there is more than one way to do things... That is exactly the point I am making. As for uncycled tanks - that's something that is virtually universally frowned upon. Of course people are free to ignore that - they are free to do whatever they want. But let's make sure that they have the opportunity to hear different points of view - after all, that's what forums are for....


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

keep it friendly guys


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think it boils down to bettas being unique in the way that they are able to thrive in very small volumes of water.

In a 4L tank, a lot of people feel it is easier just to do several water changes a week rather than be bothered trying to cycle it. Most people do not use filters in smaller tanks, and excluding planted tanks, I have never had a tank that I would consider cycled that did not have a filter. Also, being able to breathe air has meant that a filter no longer becomes a necessary piece of equipment. 

Look at the fish produced by the Thai breeders. There is no denying they are healthy fish, and yet most of them have been kept in small jars and given 100% water changes once they were big enough to be separated from their siblings. 

While they are still fish, bettas kind of stand apart in how they are raised and how they are treated. 

This is why this forum seems to have a disproportionate number of people with uncycled tanks than other more generic fish forums would.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

All opinions and many many statements have been made throughout this forum dealing with tank sizes and filtration, etc.. the reason why this is a good forum for beginners is because we are open and honest and tell you the basics to keep your fish healthy and happy. Some people can't make big set ups, so here we can help you give your little betta friend a healthy home without having to spend a lot of money, take up a lot of time or space. 

But there are stickies in the forum here dealing with filtering/cycling and tank sizes.. so members can get all sides of opinions here without having someone argue with others about it. 

The reason it is said small tanks don't cycle it's that there isn't a large enough surface area for them to hold the same stable and type of a cycle that a larger thank holds.. usually under 5 gallons there isn't enough surface space for the bacteria.. this is based off of biologists, marine biologists, and people who have different scientific and multiple decades worth of research on the matter. That is generally why we mention it here. Now, smaller tanks will have bacteria and can hold a small cycle for a short while- but because of the amount of water changes they need and the water surface, a stable cycle just won't hold.

Out of my 20 years of fish and betta keeping I have done multiple methods. I find I love bettas the most.. probably why I started breeding them and looking into the wilds. This forum is good for all different types of betta keepers.. whether it's one betta in a comfy 1 gallon bowl with a heater, or a sorority of them in a 55 gallon tank. We welcome all people with all different preferences and tanks and we don't look down on anyone because they keep their pets one way or another. All we do care about is that they are properly cared for.. like any other animal.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

How breeders handle their business is no more to be emulated than how fish stores handle theirs. Their concern is profitability, not long term care of the fish, because they don't keep them long term.... Yes, they put in a lot of work maintaining all the little mason jars, but that's to be expected, because it's their business. Like I had said before, people are free to make as much work for themselves as they wish, but that is most certainly not the only way to do it, and it is most certainly not the easiest way to do it. Some people just like doing things the hard way, and that's perfectly fine.

The primary functions of a filter are to remove waste from the tank and to detoxify the water - the fact that bettas breath air is irrelevant to that. Filters do also aerate the water (though sometimes not well enough), but there are a other ways to do that - all that's required is something to break the surface tension of the water - it need not be a filter's outflow.

The bottom line here is the practice of keeping bettas in containers, which I suppose are better than the cups in which they are sold. As you yourself said, it is not ideal to do so - that much I agree on. So my question is, why support keeping bettas in such tiny containers? Does the fact that they can survive in such conditions make it acceptable to keep them that way? Is it because "wild bettas live in puddles"? Or is it just a matter of making the best of a bad situation? If that is the case, then education is the answer, not acceptance.

It's quite obvious that betta keepers love their fish very much, and do everything they can to provide the best for their fish.....so naturally I am quite confused as to why people who profess such things would go and keep their precious fish in less than even the MINIMUM recommended tank size...in conditions that they themselves say are so unstable that their fish's life hangs in the balance, constantly in jeopardy of being poisoned to death ... living water change to water change. That's no way for any pet to live.... Can you see where I am coming from?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I see where you are coming from, but I certainly never accept or advocate for Betta's be in such a small container. None of my tanks are under 3 gallons and even that I still consider to be very small.

^Just wanted my two cents into this. It is a very interesting conversation, however seemingly like both sides are pretty much saying the same thing but in a different way.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I can see where you are coming from. I agree completely that if possible, a cycled tank is the best home for any fish, bettas included, because it does provide a more stable environment. 

I also do not like tanks smaller than 20L for bettas (excluding grow-outs) because even if they are not a very active fish, bettas still do need space to move about and self-exercise.

I am merely offering the other side of the argument. I used to keep males in 3.5 gallon uncycled tanks simply because our tap water is soft here, and I have to buffer it right up with crushed coral if I want to even think about getting a tank to cycle. However, the constant maintenance burned me out after a while and I would never have that kind of set-up again.

I hear the space argument a lot here. I honestly think it is better to have one betta in a 20L cycled tank, than 10 bettas in 4L bowls. However, some people are never going to see it from my perspective and so they will continue to do the latter. 

I don't know where the fallacy that a small tank can't hold a cycle comes from. I see people on other forums all the time keeping much more delicate species than bettas in small, cycled tanks. The use of live plants and a filter that has a large area for media should provide you with a fairly stable cycle. It's only that a lot of people choose fake plants, or filters that are underrated for the tank size that they run into issues. Also spikes in ammonia and nitrite can occur a lot faster in smaller volumes of water so you have to be very on top of things with water testing and changes.

Haha stealing my opening line Lilnaugrim


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Haha stealing my opening line Lilnaugrim


Muahaha, I am a mind reader! XD

And yes I see that some people have said that it is not possible, I did say that a few times myself until I too learned that it is possible to keep a cycle, it's just not exactly easy. Of course since I love my live plants, it would be easier to keep smaller plants, but since the majority of the Betta community doesn't do that, it is difficult to maintain the cycle.

As has been stated before, yes it can be cycled but the cycle can and will break when too much ammonia builds up. But that statement is more likely to happen if the keeper did not do their weekly water change.

And in the beginning for a Fish-In cycle, you do need more water changes for a smaller tank to keep the ammonia down. I remember reading one of your posts Jaysee that said that the keeper wouldn't be doing a water change for a month while the tank cycled. That's mostly true if you were doing a Fishless Cycle, but with a Fish-In, you need to be doing those changes quite frequently to keep the ammonia down and with such a small space it would just create a better environment for an ammonia spike.

So at that point, why bother with a cycle that isn't guaranteed to be stable? Certainly you could buy a bigger tank, but not everyone also has that space. I know many people like Betta's because they are not _required_ to have lots of space like other schoolers or "lone" fish.

And yes it comes down to people being uneducated, it is difficult sometimes to get a word out to change people's opinions and to educate. I know for certain in my area, no one would care although I've seen success stories. But I don't think we'll ever live in a world where a Betta and get a whole 10 gallon to himself and people know all about what foods to give them and how often to do their water changes.

It's unfortunate, it really is, and I do my best to educate my friends as much as I can and they are willing to listen. But it comes down to relaly just giving your fish the best care you can give and that's why we have these forums, to learn. However some people can just regurgitate false info and that's where those "myths" come in and where people say they "can't" cycle a small tank. But that's why we need to step in to say that's not true.

I mean, that's pretty much what we're doing here anyway lol And I'm going to stop talking now because I'm just going to start repeating things over and over >< Sorry for the novel!


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I agree with everything that I didn't quote, and even most of the latter part 



lilnaugrim said:


> As has been stated before, yes it can be cycled but the cycle can and will break when too much ammonia builds up. But that statement is more likely to happen if the keeper did not do their weekly water change.
> 
> And in the beginning for a Fish-In cycle, you do need more water changes for a smaller tank to keep the ammonia down. I remember reading one of your posts Jaysee that said that the keeper wouldn't be doing a water change for a month while the tank cycled. That's mostly true if you were doing a Fishless Cycle, but with a Fish-In, you need to be doing those changes quite frequently to keep the ammonia down and with such a small space it would just create a better environment for an ammonia spike.


Ammonia does not build up in a cycled tank..... that's what I am so desperately trying to get across. That is just not how the cycle works. As I had mentioned before, the only time a cycled tank will show any ammonia at all, is when there is more ammonia being produced than the bacteria can handle at present. That is called a mini-cycle. The imbalance will correct itself in a matter of days, since the bacteria grows quite fast (though slow by bacteria standards). That is why bacterial blooms often accompany mini cycles - a different, much faster growing bacteria enters the water and feasts on the excess ammonia. In order for the good bacteria to grow, it needs a place to live. Like was said, bacteria grows on all the surfaces in the tank. The media in the filter can house a lot of bacteria, so as long as there is ample media for the bacteria to colonize, there will be no battles with ammonia. If someone has issues with ammonia, it means one of three things - they have either done something to compromise the bacteria colony, whether it be cleaning or throwing out media, they have added to the bioload by adding fish or not removing decomposing matter, or their tank has become underfiltered, meaning the bioload has exceeded the tanks (including the filter) capacity to house enough bacteria to neutralize it. 

Doing or not doing their weekly water change has absolutely no impact on the cycle. As I had mentioned in this thread, one can go months without doing a water change and not lose their cycle, because the cycle is not dependent on water changes. Water changes are for the fish, not for the bacteria. I have seen this dependency mentioned several times and it just is not true. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, in a cycled tank.


At the beginning (and all throughout until it's completion) of a fish-in cycle, large frequent water changes are an absolute necessity. The size of the tank is only relevant if there is a disproportionate amount of fish in each tank, meaning water changes for a betta in a 1 gallon must be done WAY more often than if the betta were in a 10 gallon, and water changes for a betta in a 10 gallon must be done WAY more often than for a betta in a 100 gallon. If the bioloads of the stocks of a 10 gallon and a 100 gallon were proportionate, then the frequency of water changes would be the same for each.

In a fishless cycle, which I think is what you were quoting me on, water changes are not done regularly. The only time a water change is done in a fishless cycle is when the nitrites get too high that progress is stalled out. When that happens, bringing the nitrite level down with a water change will get things back in gear and finish the cycling process. For the 4-6 weeks it may take to do a fishless cycle, only one (maybe 2 if something screwy happens) water change may be needed. Once ammonia and nitrites read 0, nitrates will probably be fairly high, so one would want to do a water change prior to adding fish.

If that's not what I was talking about, please show me what I said and I would be happy to explain why I said it.


As far as filters and bettas are concerned - sponge filters are cheap, easy and provide a gentle current in the tank. There are sponge filters for even 1 gallon tanks. Many of the 1 gallon kits come with such a filter. Sponges provide a lot of extra real estate for bacteria to live, providing the means to have a stable cycle. As for tank sizes, 2.5 gallon tanks are pretty small..... I honestly can't believe that anyone doesn't have room for one.....


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah you can't break a cycle. Your bacteria will simply multiply to compensate for a sudden increase in ammonia/bioload, same as how some of the bacteria will die off if you remove fish from the tank. 

You don't kill a cycled tank by having a spike in ammonia. 

Say I introduced some very heavy waste producing fish to my cycled tank and I got an ammonia spike.I didn't kill my cycle, I just overwhelmed the current colony of beneficial bacteria with a larger amount of ammonia than they can process. 

Provided you have enough media for them to colonise further, their numbers will adjust to deal with the extra bioload. This is a mini-cycle like Jaysee mentioned, and is usually seen when people add a whole lot of a fish to a cycled tank all at once. 

This is why people with tanks that have a heavy bioload usually run several filters. They are maximising the amount of surface area available for the beneficial bacteria to colonise, as they need to be able to cope with processing large amounts of ammonia and nitrite as they are produced.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

jaysee said:


> The bottom line here is the practice of keeping bettas in containers, which I suppose are better than the cups in which they are sold. As you yourself said, it is not ideal to do so - that much I agree on. So my question is, why support keeping bettas in such tiny containers? Does the fact that they can survive in such conditions make it acceptable to keep them that way? Is it because "wild bettas live in puddles"? Or is it just a matter of making the best of a bad situation? If that is the case, then education is the answer, not acceptance.
> 
> It's quite obvious that betta keepers love their fish very much, and do everything they can to provide the best for their fish.....so naturally I am quite confused as to why people who profess such things would go and keep their precious fish in less than even the MINIMUM recommended tank size...in conditions that they themselves say are so unstable that their fish's life hangs in the balance, constantly in jeopardy of being poisoned to death ... living water change to water change. That's no way for any pet to live.... Can you see where I am coming from?


In my honest opinion, I think it's because the "minimum" amount ranges from person to person. The most common minimums I've heard to date have been 1 gallon, 2.5/3gallons, and 5 gallons. My personal mimimum is 1 gallon. Once the tank is smaller than that, it can not hold a heater, filter, decore, and hiding spot. 

I don't have the pictures are work, but I was able to set up the Petco Corner tank with a filter (Whisper 3i), Heater (Hydor 7.5W), thermometer, 1 fake plant, 1 castle as a hiding spot, and gravel. The fact that I have fit all that into a one gallon and saw my fish swimming around and exploring is part of the reason why I condone 1 gallons. I have made it work. 

Do my fish thrive more in a 5 gallon cycled tank than a 1 gallon tank? I have no problem admiting that the answer is yes. That's why 1 gallon is my minimum. It is the line I have drawn in the sand between "suitable container" and "death trap". As long as Person A is going to call 5 gallons the minimum tank size and Person B calls 2.5 gallons the minimum tank size, I'm going to condone a below minimum tank size of 1 gallon.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

SnowySurface said:


> Do my fish thrive more in a 5 gallon cycled tank than a 1 gallon tank? I have no problem admiting that the answer is yes. That's why 1 gallon is my minimum. It is the line I have drawn in the sand between "suitable container" and "death trap". As long as Person A is going to call 5 gallons the minimum tank size and Person B calls 2.5 gallons the minimum tank size, I'm going to condone a below minimum tank size of 1 gallon.


This is true of every species of fish, not just bettas. This kind of debate goes on with respect to corys, cichlids, loaches, goldfish - really everything. At the end of the day, we all have to decide how much space our fish deserve to have to swim. As you said, the minimum for bettas ranges from 2.5-5 gallons - that is the standard you will find almost everywhere. There is always a range with a top end and a low end, but a 1 gallon "tank" is 150% smaller than the lowest minimum recommended tank size (2.5 happens to be the minimum for this forum, as per the stickies). 

Again, this goes back to the mantra "what's best for the fish". Everyone is so concerned about providing the best for their bettas, yet some who say this go and stick them in tanks that are considerably smaller than even the SMALLEST recommended size. But I'll take it one step further - even providing THE minimum tank size, seems rather hypocritical of someone who "only wants what's best" for their betta. Since when is the smallest possible container that the fish can turn around in "best"? I'm sure that will touch on a nerve with some, but if it does then you should examine why, rather then get mad at me for saying it. "my betta likes to explore" - how much is there to explore in a 1 gallon tank?? Can it's fins even grow properly in such a container? But, I'm one that never could understand people's obsession with keeping the "minimum" sized school of fish in the "minimum" sized tank. To me, that's providing as LITTLE as possible for your fish, and I just don't understand why people that profess to care so much about their fish would provide so little. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've seen "I just want what's best for my fish, so I'll get 5 because that's the smallest school size I can get". They contradict themselves in the same sentence. But it happens all the time. That, and wanting to cram the largest fish they can into the smallest tank they can. This is something that goes WAY beyond bettas.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

I agree that the hypocrisy can be jarring. Still, it's better than the prevalent Yahoo! atttitude "lol wut y r u so cray-cray its just a fish get ovr it". Not that that justifies other attitudes, of course.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I dont breed fish for profit, infact I dont make any money from breeding.. I lose money lol.
Bettas see the world in a whole different way to humans. Their primary concerns are stay alive and mate. If a small tank means no predators, no illness and constant food then they are happy. 
Bettas dont roam round in their rice paddies , they stick to their little territories. Yes, a big cycled tank make water conditions easier to maintain but if water quality is maintained in a smaller tank then I dont see a problem. 
These fish have been raised and kept in small jars and tanks ever since they were domesticated. Almost every single one of your domestic bettas descendants have lived in jars and small tanks by people who knew what they were doing. 

No tank is going to be big enough for any fish so a bare minimum is, in my opinion, a good way to show people a reasonable size for their fish. 
What if the bare min for bettas was 20g, would we still complain that this is too small since its the bare minimum?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Well then by that rational we can just keep them in the cups in which they are sold. As long as they are safe from predators..... So what if a fish can't turn around, as long as it is fed and not in danger of being eaten. 

There's a sticky on the forum about the myth of bettas living in mud holes.

Too, there are A LOT of things in life that are done differently now, versus "how they always used to". Lots of views have changed too. "It's what we've always done" only gets you so far....


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I said safe from predators and free of diseases which also requires good water quality. This can be achieved in a bare minimum tank. A cup is not a bare minimum and I doubt youll find anyone here who thinks it is

Just because some things are done differently now doesn't mean traditional ways are wrong.
The people who domesticated bettas were able to have fighters recover from serious damage and those same fish will still be strong and healthy enough to fight another fight. Unhealthy, poor conditions would result in disease especially to a severely wounded fish.
I think if hundreds of years of successful keeping in jars has worked without fail and the fish are still healthy enough to breed and fight then that method obviously works perfectly.
Don't fix what isnt broken


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Like I had said before, how breeders do things is a matter of financial feasibility, just as it is for fish stores. 

In your post you say it's not good enough to keep them in a cup, but it is good enough to keep them in a mason jar. Seems quite contradictory if you ask me.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Whilst all that is true and unavoidable for breeders, does it follow that it's right for hobbyists to do the same? We all know that bettas are curious species that thrive with interaction and appear to very much "enjoy", insofar as a fish can enjoy things, extra space. Good water quality is another one of those bare minimum requirements - if a hobbyist has the space, which is applicable to pretty much all the members here who aren't breeding, why not give the betta the chance to have the best possible life - i.e. space in which to be mentally enriched as well as physically healthy?


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

This discussion has ranged widely and covered some very useful ground. The initial point was, if I remember, frequency of water changes. 

Two considerations that are rarely brought up in these and related threads:

---The importance of minimizing DOC and TDS/TSS. Besides ammonia, the decomposition of feces, food and dying plants injects dissolved organic compounds into the water. This is not filtered out, nor is it converted to anything else. 

---Total dissolved solids include the above, but also minerals, chemicals and anything that you put into the tank besides water, and anything that's in the water that you put into your tank.

Both of these parameters are difficult to quantify without specialized equipment.

Also important is re-mineralization. Livestock and plants use a quantity of certain minerals, most of which need to be replenished through regular water changes. 

More experienced keepers than I have addressed this subject more capably.
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...al-solids-tss-tds-freshwater-aquarium-122027/

And, especially:
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/regular-partial-water-changes-117205/


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

jaysee said:


> Like I had said before, how breeders do things is a matter of financial feasibility, just as it is for fish stores.
> 
> In your post you say it's not good enough to keep them in a cup, but it is good enough to keep them in a mason jar. Seems quite contradictory if you ask me.
> 
> ...


Not really, the cups are much smaller than jars. Please remember that jars come in various sizes. A mason jar with good water quality is good for a betta. Although many fish are sold as pets so the jars are only temporary homes, bear in mind that breeders dont sell all of their fish. A few pairs are kept and often kept in the jars for their lives. Is this horrid cruelty? Should the breeder keep all their breeding fish in their own 10G tanks too? 



> Whilst all that is true and unavoidable for breeders, does it follow that it's right for hobbyists to do the same? We all know that bettas are curious species that thrive with interaction and appear to very much "enjoy", insofar as a fish can enjoy things, extra space. Good water quality is another one of those bare minimum requirements - if a hobbyist has the space, which is applicable to pretty much all the members here who aren't breeding, why not give the betta the chance to have the best possible life - i.e. space in which to be mentally enriched as well as physically healthy?


I agree with this to a point. How do we know what a betta needs to be mentally enriched? Another view on it could be that since bettas are highly territorial does this mean a bigger tank would put stress on a fish since it means a bigger territory to maintain? Is the betta constantly running around his big tank thinking "I have to check here for intruders! and now here!" Its much easier to defend a small tank than a big one. 
We'll never know how a betta feels about tank size unless someone writes some papers on it. I suppose you could test it by measuring life span or measuring stress hormones in fish raised in small vs big tanks with exact same water contidtions. Would be pretty interesting to do actually

I think a 2.5g (the bare recommended min) is a very reasonable size for a person looking for a single pet. Add some plants and your betta will be perfectly happy(or what we perceive as happy). I had a betta that panicked in my big tank and felt much more secure in a small tank. Bigger is not always better for bettas infact anything over 60L for a single fish IMO is overkill


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

A jar may be 2 or 3 times bigger than a cup, but 2-3 times a very small number is still a pretty small number. A jar might as well be a cup when compared to a 2.5 - 5 gallon tank.

I still don't think it's appropriate to use what breeders and fish stores do as a measure of what hobbyist should do.


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## sareena79 (Sep 10, 2012)

> More experienced keepers than I have addressed this subject more capably.
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...uarium-122027/
> 
> And, especially:
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/f...hanges-117205/


thanks for the links they were very informative


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