# Popeye help?



## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

The bad things just keep coming! My crowntail girl, Cleo seems to have popeye.. Both her eyes are more than slightly swollen and have a white ring around the area where the eye stops and the head begins. I started a sorority a few days ago but I removed her from it almost immediately as her fins got badly torn, other girls in there are not showing any symptoms. Yesterday I found her having white tendrils on her body but I changed the water and they were gone. I think it was slime coat shedding. 
What kind of treatment should I give her? And I don't get any fish antibiotics so could someone tell me dosage if I was to use human antibiotics?



Housing 
What size is your tank? Previously in 5 gallon, now in 1 gallon QT
What temperature is your tank? 25-26 degrees Celsius 
Does your tank have a filter? not in QT
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?yes
Is your tank heated? not in the QT
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? With another male betta divided

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? pellets, bloodworms
How often do you feed your betta fish?A pinch twice a day 

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? weekly
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50-100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Tap water conditioner, salt, IAL (now)

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? No


Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Last night her eyes looked like how I described above 
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? She is acting normally and made a few bubbles like a male.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Last night
Have you started treating your fish? I put IAL in the water along with some rock salt, going to change to epsum salt today.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? None at all
How old is your fish (approximately)? 1 year old maybe


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Update: She's clamping up, has stress stripes now... I put her in a 1 gallon with heater at 79, will increase to 82 eventually, I've put in 2tsp of epsom salt and tannins like OFL mentioned in another thread... Her belly looks grey. Please help I'm freaking out! 
EDIT: She appears bloated. No pineconing (yet)...


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## SillyCone (May 7, 2011)

the infection you described looks more or less like mine but my male isn't clamping on, he just looks like slowing dying =/

Good luck with your girl though


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks! I saw your guy's infection... His eye looks really bad, I hope he gets better... What are you doing for him?


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

That sounds like the start of dropsy; gray body, clamped, swollen eyes... 
Continue epsom salt treatment, increase temp to 84*F if possible... 100% daily water changes..
You can use Metronidazole (human and animal drug) to treat her. It will help fight off bacterial infections (gray belly is a symptom of bacterial infection which leads to dropsy). You can probably get a few metronidazole pills from your local vet. Just explain the problem. Crush it up and soak frozen blood worms in it for a few hours. Then feed her the blood worms. 

The problem with using human medications is that there is no way to know if they will be effective if you just let them dissolve in water. Fish medications are formulated to work in water, human meds are not. Metronidazole is supposed to be taken orally so it works for all animals.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I'll look for it.. I can use it with the epsom salt right? I don't get frozen blood worms, only freeze dried or live, would they work. She wont eat pellets, I can't soak those


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## kgs1992 (Jun 11, 2011)

I really can't help you with the treatment, but, as far as I know, tetracycline is available at i love pets & there's a vet at shivaji park (end of the lane opposite tibbs).
Tetracycline (that is prescribed for humans ) can also be found at a chemist.
Refer This for info about the dosage that you should try.
Keep this as your last option, because no pet store will be open right now.
Even if the dosage is a bit high (not too much though, like a whole tablet), I suppose it's okay.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

My grandmom says she can get me the metronidazole, but that is of course the human version but that is only tomorrow evening  I'll try to get her to give me a prescription in the morning. I have tetracycline somewhere, I have to search... I had to use it for my mouse once. Is this a good option? Because then I can provide immediate action. I have Epsom salt and IAL in there right now, will they react?


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Be careful with Tetracycline. If it has expired, it is potentially deadly to your fish. 

Human and fish metronidazole are the same thing. If you can buy frozen bloodworms that would be best. I don't think you can use live for this. 

You can use Metronidazole with epsom salt and IAL. I assume you can use Tetracycline safely with epsom salt and IAL (but not in combination with Metro) but I have not used Tetracycline to fight off Dropsy. In my dealings with dropsy, most people have suggested Metronidazole, though Tetracycline might work too.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

OK, since it is 1am right now, and I couldn't find the TCN I cannot do much on the antibiotic front . And I definitely wont get frozen bloodworms anywhere... Is it possible to mix the metronidazole with the water like I would do the tetracycline instead? I'll get one of the two in the morning depending on the answer to my question... Luckily she is still eating and had some energy after eating... Eyes are still swollen but have not increased in size. In fact they are not very big, I noticed they were swollen because of the white ring.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

As I mentioned before, fish meds are specialized. I do not know if dissolving human meds in water will have the same effect as using fish medicine that is made to work in water. Technically they are the same active ingredients but there are other things in fish medicines that make them work.... If you can get real fish Tetracycline then go with that. It can be used with epsom salt. I do not think it is as affective as Metro but if you cannot get the Metro into her orally then it won't work anyway.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Right, ok then I guess I'll get the fish tetracycline, are there any other effective antibiotics that would help her? Its actually 3.45 am right nw bt I can't sleep! I really appreciate all your help btw! Thank you!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ok, problems!
Since metranidazole is off the list, I asked the only lfs which would have tetracycline, if they had it and they suggested I go and buy it from a chemist... -_-' Awesome! Should I try the human version or not?

Cleo is doing better than last night, even though she is still bloated, her eyes have reduced slightly in size and she is a bit more active than last night... I feel medication with antibiotics is still necessary because what I'm doing is reducing the symptoms but the underlying problems would still be present 
Please correct me if I'm wrong...


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I'm going to try and soak the tetracycline with freeze dried bloodworms, hopefully this works!


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Good luck! At least you spotted the dropsy in time. Dropsy is usually fatal in later stages... or at least from what I heard
If she/he starts to pinecone, it might mean that his insides are too damaged


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, my Crowntail Demon died of dropsy a month ago, I couldn't do anything that time  Now my only problem is getting the dosage right! I want to mix it with food like Darkmoon said and it would be more effective. but I'm having problems with dosage, ugh:frustrated:


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Rip Demon.
Does he/she look better today?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yes better but not great... Usually she's very fiesty, this has taken a real toll on her..


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm going to cheer her on! *gets cheerleaders* Go go go! You can do it!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lol! Awesome! My bettas have cheerleaders! XD

Must find dosage...... gaaaaah!!


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Are they tablets? How big? Try a tenth of it. That is usually the amount. Or less.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I do not believe you should be giving Tetracycline orally... I have no experience with that and who knows what the dosage would be (you would need to know the weight of your fish lol). Does your lfs not sell the dissolvable version?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

The thing is I got oxytetracycline (Terramycin) from the chemists, it's a powder in capsules.. No I checked with a few fish stores and they all suggested I get it from the chemist. I checked online and it said it's better to give it with food and that dissolving in water should be the last course of action. I was worried about the oxy bit but my grandmom helped me out a bit with the dosage and assured me it's almost the same as normal tetracycline. (She's a doctor). I think next time I'm just going to order some fish meds online, this is crazy!
Update on Cleo: I gave her the medicine coated on a bloodworm last night, she gobbled it up.. Her eyes are back to normal size, fins are unclamped and body has reduced a lot. Her abdomen is still pale though and she has a bit of a stress line. She's not listless and swims around, and comes up to me. She's just slow in her actions but so far it looks good. *knocks on wood*


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm glad to hear she is feeling better and it sounds like Cleo is handling it pretty well so giving it orally isn't hurting her. I'm going to go post about it on VIN (Veterinary Information Network) to see what they think. How long to you plan to continue treatment? When I was treating my goldfish with Metronidazole covered bloodworms I gave it to him twice per day... But if she is improving with once per day treatments then don't increase it unless she doesn't get better. Good luck!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, once per day is what I'm doing right now.. Grandmum said for five days, does that sound alright? Please let me know what the VIN think as well. Thanks a lot for helping btw! I realised I hadn't thanked you all this while. C:


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

No problem at all 
The typical treatment for fungal/bacterial infections is a 4-6 day cycle. If there are still symptoms at the end, then you repeat it one more time. I posted your issue on VIN so we'll see what they think.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

So, I'll have to do the whole 5 days again right? Should there be a break in between or should I just continue the dosage non stop if I don't see it getting better? But really thank you! This is really helping and I find this forum so comforting because I don't find many people IRL who would care about a fish... It really makes me happy that there are people who care!


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I know right, this site makes betta care so much more rewarding!

OK, here's what i have from VIN: Terramycin can be given orally, as an immersion or even by injection. It has even proved to be extremely successful at fighting columnaris! Doses are quite variable (*10-70 mg/kg Q 24 hr*) and can be given PO (by mouth), IM (intramuscular), IC (intracorporal? into the cranium...), or as an immersion (in the water). It should be given once every 24 hours... Continue until symptoms are gone. Terramycin is FDA approved for boned fish so I think you are pretty safe.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ok that's good! Although I'm worried, she's being clamped up again. She was sitting at the bottom when I saw her which really freaked me out btw, she came up to see me and I sat with her for 5-10 min, she was swimming during that time... Slowly but swimming, she's alert, eats and is stong enough to swim away when I try to put her in the cup. Her tummy is still pale, but the clamping and the sitting at the bottom really scared me (she could have been resting but still). I hope the terramycin works. *crosses fingers*


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Update: She's swimming around nicely now, not lethargic but has to stop and rest frequently. She's gobbling up her food (and the medicine) and she seems soo much better (thanks to you, Darkmoon ) Even the swelling is gone now. She gives me the "feed me moar nao!!" looks when I feed her too!But the stress stripes and pale belly refuse to go away.
Should I change something? Epsom salt has been on for 4 days, Terramycin for 3. IAL is in there always... Should I change the salt? I feel like I should be doing something... Any suggestions?


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm glad she's feeling better!! I'd stay the course for now. The rest is up to her. If she's eating well and acting better then I think she has turned the corner. Just make sure you keep up on the daily 100% water changes.

The pale belly does have me concerned though. Was it gray before you started the Terramycin?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, its been gray since I noticed the pop-eye. The stripes as well. Maybe its my imagination but I think the gray is receding.. She always had a tinge of it on her belly but it increased when she got sick. 
She's acting a lot like her old self today


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Wow, it is great you started treating with an oral anti-bacterial. The gray belly and swelling eyes are an early symptom of a bacterial infection that can lead to dropsy if left untreated. Sounds like you have it all under control! Keep us posted


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

OK, I think we spoke too soon! This may be my imagination and I'm just obsessing over this without reason but I want to be sure... Are these raised scales or not?








I'm sorry the picture is so big but I didn't think it would be visible in a small one. Please let me know! I took this picture 2 hours ago. She is active and doesn't appear bloated but I know this is a bad sign and it wasn't there before. 
I just saw her right now again and the scales appear even more raised.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I can't see anything in the pic but of course that doesn't mean it's not there. I don't know if you can tell but these scales were raised so much that I could feel them. It's like running your finger over lightly corrugated paper.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Your girl had it really bad  I don't think its this stage yet.. The worst thing is that she's so active and eating... I don't know whether it's getting better or worse! My camera really sucks at zooming in, this is the best I could do. On the top part of the picture you can see a little bit of the raised scales, where the light hits.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

In this one you can see the shadows under the scales and some bumpiness on top.. X(


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I can see it in the bottom pic. Poor Cleo. I wonder what on earth could be wrong with her. But how could she pinecone if she's not bloated? There has to be something pushing the scales out . . .


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I have no idea! You can see in the picture I first posted that she's not bloated at all. She's swimming perfectly, eating and acting completely normal! Even the bit of gray on her belly has decreased.. I really don't understand it  I keep having mixed feelings like she's getting better/ no she isn't...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Are you absolute sure she's pineconed? I just don't see how it can be possible if there's no fluid building up or swollen organs to push the scales out. Unless she has microscopic parasites under her scales. But that seems highly unlikely. She'd be trying to rub them off on the sides of her jar. Hrmmm. Maybe it's a trick of the light. Have you tried to feel her? Even if she's only a little pineconed, you should be able to feel if the scales are raised.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I tried, she wont let me touch her since I've been changing her water every single day these few days, she thinks I'm going to put her in the cup and gets stressed... I'll try though. I put her cup on my lightbox so that I could see her silhouette from the top and I can definitely see raised scales.. It's not severe but I'm worried because I don't understand the problem and don't know what to do about it. D:
I'll try feeling her again..


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, so touching is a no go.. She swims away if I just touch her, let alone rub my fingers over her...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Maybe it's a side effect from the medicine? I just don't know. I guess all I can suggest is watch her. As long as she's swimming and eating normally, maybe the scales will go back down on their own. Hopefully DarkMoon will post soon.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Yeah, I'll keep an eye on her for sure! She is sleeping now (2 am lol) so I wont bug her... I hope Darkmoon can help. This is so weird! Thanks Sakura


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Sorry I was at work! 
She does appear a bit pineconned, so she does have dropsy. I was hoping the terrymycin would treat it... Basically, she has an internal bacterial infection; her organs are not processing fluids correctly so they are building up and forcing her scales up... 

So, up the Epsom to 2tsp/gal if you aren't already doing that. Continue with daily water changes. If you can up the temp to 84* that would help. 

Would you be able to find Erythromycin and/or Metronidazole?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

DarkMoon, fightergirl went to bed - it's 3:30 AM there. Does Cleo look bloated to you? I'm trying to figure out how she could pinecone if she wasn't bloated . . .


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

She appears to have pineconning, but not traditional "bloating".
Pineconing is caused by the build up of fluids due to injury to the kidneys, most likely caused by a internal bacterial infection... aka true dropsy. As I said before, her symptoms (swollen eyes and gray belly) were consistent with the early signs of bacterial caused dropsy. Though constipation (bloat) can also cause pineconning, that is not this girl's problem. She has an infection. What confuses me is that fightergirl is treating her with Terramycin which is an anti-bacterial so that should have stopped the infection. It is possible that this bacteria is not sensitive to Terramycin (tetracycline) so she should switch to Erythromycin if possible. Feeding her Metronidazole would really help too.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ah, okay. I thought pineconing only happened when they were truly bloated. I get it now. Thanks. Hopefully fightergirl can find Erythromycin and Metronidazole in Mumbai. I know she's really fond of Cleo.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I can get those but again only the human versions. Today is her last day of Terramycin, I should finish the course right? Should I start the Metronidazole/ Erithromycin immediately or give her system a break? I hope she pulls through, she looks like she's doing so well!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Oh, and how much Metronidazole should I put in the food? The same as the Terramycin?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

She wont eat her medicine anymore... She waits and eats the worms once the med dissapates into the water... Too smart for her own good :c So now the metro is out of the window, I'm trying tcn again but in the water... Sigh...


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Sneaky! Is she looking better though?
You can soak the worms in metronidazole. Crush a pill and dissolve it in 1/4cup water and put the frozen blood worms in it. It will need to soak for around 10 hours though. That way she can't avoid the meds. The same would work for tcn too...

If the pineconning hasn't gone down I'd try the Metro. My bettas always get worse when they don't get their Metro so I think that does play a major role.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

She's still pineconing but her behaviour and activity is normal. I already put the tcn in her water... When I do a waterchange tomorrow I wont put it in. I can't find frozen worms here unless I get live ones and freeze them. You think that might work? The metro doesn't dissolve easily in ththe water so its difficult to just coat the worms like a paste which I did with tcn, do you think freeze dried worms would soak? If I freeze live ones, I should soak them in the fridge right? Or they'll spoil? Sorry about all the questions, I'm really worried and confused


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Ya, Metro doesn't dissolve very well, which is why you would need to mix it into a very small amount of water to force it into the food... Theoretically, if you leave live ones in a Metro solution, they should absorb it. You don't need to freeze them. You could do Metro or Tcn that way, which ever one you feel more comfortable with. You just need to get one of them into her. I don't think freeze dried worms will keep their integrity if left in water too long?

It's a good sign that she is still eating and acting right!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Alright, then I'll get the live worms tomorrow, the lfs isn't open on Sundays, I'll see if it works.. Dropsy is still there but behaviour is normal.. Thanks, I will try this tomorrow!


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Ok I put the worms in the solution... Its been 2 hours and they're all dead. I hope this is expected/ok... I have them in the fridge so they wont rot.. How many should I feed her at a time? And should I make fresh worm and metro solutions everyday?


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Well... I didn't think they would die actually, but it shouldn't be a problem... I've never gone the live food route since frozen worms are cheap here. You should use new worms each day if you can... Sorry that sucks. 

How many you feed just depends on how large they are since it is pretty hard to overdose Metro. If they are under 2cm then maybe 3 worms. If they are over 2cm then just 2. Have you fed her them before?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I've fed them live, they're cheaper than processed so that's ok.. She doesn't look so hot today, eyes are big again and she's gotten lethargic again but as long as she's eating I'm not giving up.. I gave her the first dose right now, she ate 3. Spat out one. Hopefully she will continue to eat. I should dose just once a day right?


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

Never mind.. I had to put her down, she went downhill really fast, I couldn't watch her suffer anymore.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Oh man, I'm so sorry about your girl. You literally did everything you could for her.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry, Fighter. You tried everything you could.  I'm sure she knew how much you loved her and how much you cared.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I tried dosing her again but she kept spitting out the worms. She sat on the bottom and came up frantically for air and sank back, couldn't swim at all.. Her suffering was evident. When I used the clove oil, I put in the normal dose for making her unconscious but she was so weak she died from that itself. I put the alcohol to make sure but it was not necessary. I hope she finds peace, she was such a feisty girl it's hard to think that she went this way.

Thank you for all your support and help Darkmoon and Sakura! You really helped a lot.. Thanks for your time and patience.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I KNOW she found peace. Any fish who knows she or he is loved will go with peace. I'm sure her only regret was leaving you. I know, it sounds corny but it's true.


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

It doesn't sound corny , it helps! It a million times better than what I usually get: It was just a fish


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Gaaah, I hate that one. You wanna say "it's just my fist meeting your chin."


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## fightergirl2710 (Jun 9, 2011)

I know! Even the pet shop people say things like oh the turtle/ mouse/ fish is sick? Why don't you just toss it and get another? It is so infuriating! Idiots..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:/ It's just a business to them, that's all. But we know better.


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