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## xxxwaterlillyxxx (9 mo ago)

Edit 2: Selling off all stock into pet homes. Was a good experience but I'm not cut out for breeding.

As I'm going into my first attempt breeding, I would ask for some kindness, I am always open to suggestions/critique provided its worded well!

A second point, please note in my country its incredibly hard to get access to new strains/lines of betta fish, so you often don't find exceedingly high quality fish. Our country makes it near impossible to import. I am aware the conformity may not be perfect but I strive to correct it!

First off, here is my foundation male, named Bullock. Lovely* big  *boy with a very nice body and head. Nice enough tail though I would like to see his anal fin shortened and given that beautiful lower line typical of a nice plakat. Not to sure about the dip in his spine at the back of his dorsal fin but I feel confident that can be bred out. He is a virgin and has not spawned before.










_(Above) Foundation Male_

And as for my female is this lovely little plakat girl (not so little anymore after conditioning!) She has a lovely topline and beautiful length of body and fin conformity when flared. Shes not perfect, and the photo is a month old at this time. But she is a lovely balanced girl. Please note she is not flaring her tail in the below photo and it actually sits very well. She also had never spawned before.









_(Above) Founding Female_

*Pre Conditioning*

A week ago I started conditioning my male and female separately on high protein meals fed 3 small meals a day, they put on weight, female developed a large clutch of eggs for her size and ovipositor was displaying. I conditioned them together for 3 days, increasing meal size to 5 small meals a day each while cutting down portions slightly. The male built a large bubble nest 6 inches around in diameter and a inch high.

*Releasing the Female*

When I first released the female to the male, she was shy, and avoidant. So I re-chimneyed her. I released her again the next day, she was flirty, cheeky, and flaring at the male enticing him, while they both led each other around the tank before eventually spending a few hours under the bubble nest. There were 2 wraps I noticed but neither released eggs. I took a risk and left them together overnight. In the morning I found the female hanging out openly in the tank, no fin damage at all. I presumed it had not been a success till i noticed a small clutch of eggs in the nest. At this point the female was removed.

*Day 1:* *Maintaining the Nest *
_11/04/2022_

Today is the first day since the eggs were laid, to my knowledge they were laid between 12am and 5am. The male decided to cull half the eggs himself, whether to reduce the workload or due to lack of fertility only he knows. Unfortunatley in the process he destroyed his nest. At this point I took a risk to save the remaining eggs and transferred the nest to a small tank where I could observe his behavior's more closely and artificially hatch if needed (previously had been in a tub). I allowed him to attempt to stay in the transfer tank with his eggs at which point he decided to stay a dad, and rebuilt his nest best he could and has been returning his eggs to the nest and picking them up as they fall. As of now I am comfortable leaving him with the nest as I believe he was overwhelmed with the clutch size, thus the need to cull. As of now he is being a pretty good dad as far as I can see! Though I have yet to see any change in the actual eggs themselves (no size change or gray center). So suspect this may be a dud batch.

I'll post updates as I go! Any advice/input welcome!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If you transfer eggs and male; he will likely devour the eggs. You can move eggs to other male's nests, but never disturb the male.

For egg eaters:
Most common; male usually puts eggs into nest and slowly eat them. In this case you can remove eggs and artificially hatch them.

In cases where male and female devour eggs upon release, make them spawn above mesh (net material, etc). Use shallow new clean water (2.5 - 3" water) to enable eggs fall to floor before pair regain consciousness. Once the deed is done, remove both parents and mesh. You can reduce water level and add stem plants to give fry something to cling on. 
. . . . . . . . 
We often need to work with what is available and make the most of it. And once you have achieved creating fairly perfect form, it may be ruined when you add new genes to your line. Unless you can produce "unrelated" individuals from one pair, you will constantly have to fix your fish's form

Btw, you have a nice pair and should produce good formed fry from the pair. If available, get a DT to improve overall fins (not that they're poorly formed - to make them more ideal)

By the form of anal fin, the male probably had long finned ancestors. IMO, anal fins will usually fix itself in each generation. You don't need to worry too much about that. Caudals are fairly easy to manipulate and maintain. However dorsals can be tricky. So you need to look out for that.


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## xxxwaterlillyxxx (9 mo ago)

indjo said:


> If you transfer eggs and male; he will likely devour the eggs. You can move eggs to other male's nests, but never disturb the male.
> 
> For egg eaters:
> Most common; male usually puts eggs into nest and slowly eat them. In this case you can remove eggs and artificially hatch them.
> ...


Oh thank you for your informative response. I've definitely been feeling pretty miserable about it but have learned my lesson and know how to reproach the situation. I'm going to have the breeding tank in a small room by itself with curtains drawn next time and only going in2 times a day to check on things. I suspect in my excitement of my first spawn I stressed the male with my presence and he chose to eat his eggs so as to retain nutrients and breed in a 'safer' situation (aka me not gawking at him).

I've tried to do my research on form and the process and selecting breeding fish. Its quite difficult with such a limited pool in NZ where most of the fish you find at pet stores are spoon headed with poor finnage and breeders are so few and far between.

Thank you again for your kind informative response and suggestions, I'll start tracking downa DT breeder and see if I can find someone who breeds something suitable


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## xxxwaterlillyxxx (9 mo ago)

Ordered this HM Dumbo HM today with imported parents. Visiting a breeder tomorrow to find some nice HM girls. Decided to go the HM route rather than plakat. I plan to breed out the dumbo ears as I personally don't want to burden a halfmoon with more exhaustion.

I can't seem to find any good resources on salamander genetics at all, ive searched for hours now. I presume this boy is a full metallic(?), if paired with the right female I'm hoping i can maybe produce some platinums as that is a route I am interested in taking.



http://imgur.com/BXRFoly


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

# compare your PK to the EEHM. Look at peduncle . . . . For future reference; look for wide peduncle, especially for HMs because they carry more weight behind them.

# also for future;
DO NOT buy fish that doesn't ALWAYS swim properly. I mean, if you look at that male, he is often swimming head up position. Though he may be perfectly healthy, nevertheless it may also mean early signs of health issues.

Salamander, . . . .forgot her name . . . .anyways, it's a name for a specific pattern patented by creator. It is not metallic. It's basically red, cambodian and irid. More common name for similar color is lavender (to my knowledge). Bred to red, it will produce red-ish fish. To irid, more blue-ish. Both will produce a number of cambodian lines (whether pastel, grizzle, cellophane, mascot, etc). 

That specific male looks as if it was crossed to a metallic color - hence the shiny fins. What I find amazing is that he has multiple irid colors (blue and green) which is very rare for non marbles.

To create platinum, you'd want to cross a copper to a cambodian and continue the metallic light colored offspring. Breeding metallic irids, though possible, will unlikely produce platinum.


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## xxxwaterlillyxxx (9 mo ago)

Oh man I feel awful. I hadn't even thought about the direction he was swimming. I will cancel the purchase of this fish. I don't think I am cut out for breeding, I seem to continue to make poor decisions and have no desire to produce sickly fish, I will stick to cat breeding, at least I know what I am doing with that. Will pet all my fish out over the next week. Thank you for your help and wishing the best to all others in their breeding/showing ventures


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to discourage you. I was only trying to educate you so you'll be able to make better decisions in the future.

You are new to this hobby. I've been breeding since early 80's and sometimes literally watched them for 24 hours to learn their behavior. I am used to seeing their movement, hence tend to catch on first signs of possible trouble.

I'm sure you will one day get used to everything and able to detect possible trouble early. Believe me, though I've been doing this for dacades, there is often something new I learn til this day.


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## xxxwaterlillyxxx (9 mo ago)

Oh I am not upset with you by any means Indjo. I really appreciate your help and honest criticisim. I just don't think I can in good consciousness breed these animals as i feel I am more liable to make mistakes and create animals who are suffering due to my lack of experience, and that isn't something I wish to do to any living thing


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Well, I'll be here if you ever decide to try breeding bettas again.


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