# Blue/green dragons?



## jr591 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have read that dragonscale is characterized by thick, _white_scaling and that when naming dragons the color describes their body color and not their scale color. I have also read that blue dragons are not possible. My question is whether or not the "dragons" below are really dragons, as their scales are green but still kinda have the same "thick" look as traditional dragons. I am also wondering what makes these two dragons "platinum" as well.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1410881485

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1410884230


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## farmgirl82 (Jul 30, 2014)

They are beautiful. They look like true dragonscales. I think the platinum refers to the metallic look they have. Black is their base color with the dragonscale & irids.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yay, I like these types of threads. I have a whole thread about it as well I'll link you to in the end. 

There are two kinds of people; Dragon "Purists" and the others (lol). The 'Purists' say that there is only one kind of Dragon and that is with the white scaling, the other thick scaled fish are similar but they would be referred to as Metallic. So that first boy, they would call a Black Turquoise Metallic PK.

The others say that any (and I fall into this category, either one is honestly fine, it's just a matter of opinion) thick scaled fish is a Dragon scale. So they would be a Black Turquoise Dragonscale. 

A real Blue Dragon is slowly being achieved but with the ways the colors work, most of them will not be stable as they are being bred currently from using Marbles which means their body will eventual turn blue for the most part. Some marbles are stable and so they may retain the blue fins and white scaling but it will be a small minority of them until we figure out how to keep them stable as they are still very new to the market. White works on the blue (irid) layer which is the top layer.

Going back to the "others" part, for me I feel like Dragon scaling is a type of scale that appears thicker. Original it came from the wild Imbellis x Splendens crossing which brought us the color Copper. From there we continued to selectively breed those Copper fish that had thicker and thicker scaling until we got the regular Copper color and then continued with the thicker scaling to achieve Copper Dragons, then from there they were outcrossed to the irid layer to get the Dragon 'colorations' we have now, meaning a Red Dragon is a red fish with heavy white scaling.

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=4062865#post4062865


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## jr591 (Aug 13, 2014)

Interesting read! I'm wondering, though-- how does the IBC judge dragonscales? Are they classified as metallics or are they a class all their own?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That part I'm not sure about, you'd have to ask an IBC member (which I _should_ be lol)


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I think they go into metallic bicolor.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Just want to add: 
Dragons Scale (DS) was originally designed to have white/silver/light colored bodies with what ever colored fins which gives the DS its name. But irids cannot show light colored bodies thus they remain irid colored throughout their bodies and fins. 

Therefore there are no true irid DS . . . not in the way they were designed. But personally all are DS because they have that thick armor appearance.


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## jr591 (Aug 13, 2014)

Not really relating to dragonscale coloration, but I have another question regarding dragons-- why is it that most dragons I've seen HMPK's? I've seen a few HM's here and there and very rarely have I seen CT (even then, their scaling doesn't look quite dragon-y enough).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Probably (and this is just an educated guess) because originally dragonscale comes from the copper which we got from the wild Imbellis Betta that we cross bred our domestic splendens to and it was a PK. PK is closest to the wild betta tail types so it's easiest to cross a PK to a wild to get a still even tail spread. Dragons are still relatively new to the game, the first known public appearance was back in 2004 from what I know. Since then though, there are plenty of HM's that are Dragons, heck, half the fish on AquaBid right now are dragons but you may not see them readily in the petstore is all depending on where your petstore gets their fish and who's breeding what at what time.

I do not, however, find too many CT dragons, some that are close but not quite there. I have, however, seen CTPK's as dragons and I actually owned one too


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Really ??? Owned one... I would like a pic if u don't mind XD 
I've been interested in them for awhile


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, Isis was a Dragon, well...she was part Dragon at least lol. Some of her siblings are up on AquaBid right now too which I'll link you to.

Here's Isis:


And some of her siblings on AquaBid:
Red Gold CTPK he's definitely a clean partial.
Dark Red CTPK
And Isis's probable nephew, Black Copper CTPK


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Wow! She's so pretty! :3 I would like to order one now LOL, I'm stuck in te middle of raising fry though >__< haha!


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## BettaBunker (Sep 18, 2013)

Personally, I don't think a dragon scale should be defined by a certain color, but by the thickness of their scales. Another dimension, if I may add, to a dragon scale betta should be their masking as is with metallics. Below are some examples of blue/green dragon bettas that I've bred. Most have been sold.

Mint Green Dragon









Turquoise Dragon









Sky Blue Dragon


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I personally agree with that too BettaBunker, and those are some gorgeous fish you've got!

Full Mask, as I explained in my little article, is a trait often followed by Dragonscaling but is not necessary for a fish to be a full Dragon.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

jr591 said:


> Not really relating to dragonscale coloration, but I have another question regarding dragons-- why is it that most dragons I've seen HMPK's? I've seen a few HM's here and there and very rarely have I seen CT (even then, their scaling doesn't look quite dragon-y enough).


Not sure what the trend is in your area, but around here people are more interested in PK. Simply because they are easier to achieve and maintain (show form). CTs are the least desired.

Disregarding form, it should only take 3-4 generations to get full DS. SO 10 yrs since they were first made public should be more than enough to create new varieties . . . if a breeder wanted to.


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## jr591 (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm starting to get confused about the line between a dragon and metallics. Can someone clarify with pictures? What is considered the "metallic" colors? And can someone show me the difference between a regular "green" betta and a "green" dragon?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's a fine line so no worries!

If you're a Dragon Purist then there is a difference:
Dragon--thick white scales
Metallic--thick Turquoise scales or Copper scales

However there are regular Turquoise and Copper's as well that don't have as thick of scales.

Red Dragon:









Turquoise "Mustard Gas" Metallic:


Regular Turquoise (green)
Notice that her scales are not as thick and the scales don't fully cover the head either, they stop at her gills.









So anything that has thick scales other than white scaled with solid fins would be considered Metallic, like Turquoise, Steel, Royal Blue, and Copper (all the irids). Then the white scaled fish with solid colored fins are the Dragon's. That would be a purist way of thinking but those of us in the other camp call the irids Dragon's as well--it can get confusing though if you don't quite understand it yet I know. 

There is no real green color, only Turquoise which can appear green in certain lighting.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To my understanding: . . . (forgot where I read this)
Metallic bettas were created from splenden x imbillis/mahachai crosses - they were originally copper colored but then crossed to other colors and created a variety of metallics (copper, platinum, irid metallic (usually a lighter shade of irid with very shiny scales), gold). Genetically they are said to have single metallic genes (what ever that means).

DS was achieved with different wild crosses and inherited double metallic genes, giving them that thick scale appearance. Non irid/irid based colors are easy to see but irid colors can't exhibit light colored bodies. The light blue (above picture) are easily distinguished but the turquoise/green and royal blue often looks like regular colors. Usually, not always, irid DS show a mat color unlike the glossy/shiny regular color of irids (specially turquoise and steel blue). Royal blue is the hardest to distinguish as they look very similar. Even close up pictures do not show significant differences.

The DS copper line is similar to DS irids as they carry irid background. Some may show mat greyish bodies (black dragons), some a more shiny silver steel kind of body (usually crosses between DS copper line to DS light body), and others may look exactly like metallic coppers. Pictures of these coppers are more confusing than anything but in real life, DS coppers usually do not show different colors with alternated light angles.

I too do not fully understand the genetic makeup of DS . . . are they simply dragon versions of regular colors (regular color genetics plus double metallic genes) or do they have different genetic makeups. All I know is that:
When crossing DS to metallic, you should get more DS/partial DS. While crossing to non metallic should produce only partial DS. At least this is what the theory suggests. In reality it all depends on the background of the non DS or the regular colors. If they have a metallic or DS background, they will produce some fairly full DS and the percentage can sometimes be surprisingly high. 

IMO, the DS purists are making all this more confusing. They'd only acknowledge DS as those with light colored bodies. While dark colored thick scaled bodies are considered as mere metallics. This may simplify identification, but when dealing with genetics (cross breeding for colors), it becomes more confusing than anything because both lines work differently.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oooh, I didn't know that either! Thanks for that explanation indjo!


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## jr591 (Aug 13, 2014)

Its scales don't look too thick to me, but I thought this was cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFI0Y2jMAqk


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah he's a dragon! A blue dragon too! Finally we've made blue dragons! It's pretty exciting even if it is only part of the marble gene.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

View attachment 434898
View attachment 434906


These were mine. I wouldn't call blue dragon marbles as "true" blue dragons. They only stay that way for a short period. So if you ever buy (ship) a "perfect" blue dragon, don't expect the same color as the picture when they arrive.


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