# my betta died suddenly - I want to know why



## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

My betta died quite suddenly! This is not a eulogy, I am specifically posting to this thread because I want answers. There was very little warning, but there was some. I am a grown man but still I am quite shocked and disappointed! I have taken a few post-mortem photos (attached). I have frozen the corpose for now, to give m daughter time to decide on the dignified burial etc.

For my aquaria friends, your feedback and advice would be greatly appreciated. I fear this has something to do with when I cleared the algae off the front pane of my tank last Thursday. The water quality was still excellent (nitrites and nitrates undetectable, pH down a bit to 8.1 (I am in a hardwater area in London - but so are all the petshop tanks). The betta however began not to feed and was hiding, resting on the bottom in corners or under things or sometimes on plants. I think the loss of the cover from the algae made it feel acutely exposed and without cover. It evolved to live in muddy rice paddies, remember. Also, the bristlenosed catfish and the snails in the tank have been busy munching at the weaker plants in the tank and indeed seem to have bitten through or denuded some of their stems. Since these were presumably dead or weak already (overgrown by algae?), this has probably helped my tank by preventing rotting. However, this has altered the layout of the tank with some plants basically completely disappearing and others floating off (stems bitten away) to fetch up still alive elsewhere and put now new roots in the last few days. I imagine this change of territory and scenery stressed the betta even more. He seemed a bit more mobile with the lights out, lending credence to the loss-of-cover hypothesis (less exposed in the dark). He was completely off his food these last three days, even bloodworms. The other fish seemed pretty good, the rummys were nice and red faced (and rummy-nose tetras are the "canaries of the fishtank" - if there is a brewing problem or upset they go pale). Perhaps a bit less aggressive when feeding? My Endlers' guppies hung around at the top of the tank a bit, so I have thought the O2 levels might have been low (have ordered a test kit), although this may be a territorial or dominance dispute since one Endler is chasing another. The betta very occasionally swam up for air and then would swim down again. Today his gills were very active as well - unusually so. I did a 1/13th water change today as a precaution - did this stress him out even more? Finally at perhaps 9 pm or so today he gave a last few erratic swims to the surface, but each time he plummeted down like a dead weight and lay on the gravel in strange, corpselike poses. Finally I realised his gills were no longer moving at all, and when I fished him out he was totally unresponsive, even when (as a last resort) I handled him directly and took him out of the water. He is dead, but still beautiful in death - so what the hell happened???? There is no sign of disease that I could see. Can a betta really die of stress like this in three days??

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? Gallons, I don' know. 40L metric.
Does it have a filter? Ye - very well cycled. Nitrite and nitrate zero.
Does it have a heater? Yes
What temperature is your tank? 78'F, very stable
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind?
3 rummy nosed tetras
3 endler's guppies
1 bristlenosed catfish (plec)
2 Yamato shrimp
4 snails

Food:
What food brand do you use? PetsAtHome 
Do you feed flakes or pellets? Flakes
Freeze-dried? Supplemented with some Delica brand preserved bloodworns
How often do you feed your Betta? How much?
I fed the tank twice daily with flakes and with bloodworms as a treat two consecutive days per week (one sachet was too much in on go so it was half a sachet over two days). I often noticed the other fish would crowd out the betta and even snatch food he spat out. I had started adding slightly more flakes, and when the smaller fish lost interest the betta could feed later in peace. Anything that sunk to the bottom was finished off by the snails or shrimp.

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change?
Once a week
What percentage of water did you change?
One 13th (typically 3L with 39L in the tank)
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water?
I used a siphon but off the surface. The bottom was just too crowded with all the plants and they tended to come loose I went went far down with with siphon.
What additives do you use? 
0.3% aqualibrium brand salt, a dechlorinator, and a ml of filter bacteria.

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you.

Ammonia: not tested
Nitrite: essentially zero
Nitrate: essentially zero
pH: 8.1
Hardness (GH): 8
Alkalinity (KH): 8 - 8.4
GH and KH last tested five days ago.

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms?
As above
How has your Betta’s appearance changed?
No real change in appearance - was still vivid and beautiful
How has your Betta’s behavior changed?
Stopped swimming or feeding. Hid, then died!
Is your Betta still eating?
See above
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how?
Water change but it didn't help
Does your Betta have any history of being ill?
No
How long have you owned your Betta? Was he or she a rescue?
A couple of weeks. Not a rescue.


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## RNHime (Mar 12, 2015)

I don't have an answer for you, but I don't think it was stress. As you've noted, he is particularly vibrant for a dead fish. Stressed bettas will become pale. I also don't know of any bettas that actually *died from stress*, generally the stress just makes them prone to get something else... I don't see anything unusual about your fish such as pineconing so I really can't say what it was.

The only thing I can think of is that because the betta is a labyrinth organ fish, something could have gotten into the water that essentially suffocated him? But would not have bothered the other fish... I'm not sure, just an idea since you mentioned his breathing being off.

I've experienced sudden fish deaths like this, and it is baffling. Sometimes it's really disheartening but at the same time you can be glad knowing you gave them the best life possible until they (apparently) died a peaceful death. We don't know how old they are when they come from the shop, but it's usually at least a year.


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## Aquastar (Jul 17, 2015)

Your tank dimensions are 20x10x12? 10 gallon I think.
So he's alive in all 3 pictures? It helps to know that as dead Bettas that are visibly sick are different to diagnose vs alive ones. Sorry if I confuse you with gallons, but most people here use gallons because a)smaller number b)most user seem to be American. 


1. Ammonia, this is probably why he died, way to overstocked, and stocked with the wrong fish at that! Plecos need a a large tank, bristle noses are smaller, but still need 20 gallons minimum. Tetras require at least 4-6 in a tank. I assume you got Apple snails/mystery snails? They get to be the size of a golf ball and are poop machines. To much bio load in that tank. Ammonia is the most important parameter to check, get a test kit for that ASAP, and adding a oak leaf would help lower PH.


2. Dropsy. He looks bloated in the first picture, were his scales sticking out any? Dropsy is essentially a symptom of organ failure and is generally fatal, but fish may live a while before he passes (personal experience).

3. Stress. So may fish in that tank could easily freak him out, so he hides, and died of stress.can we get a full tank picture? Bettas prefer something of a jungle of plants. Lots of floating plants/decor. DanniFluff had some of the nicest looking Betta jungles, lots of hiding places and plants! Her journal is called: "The Arthurian Cycle".

I hope this helped.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Vacuuming the substrate is absolutely vital to maintaining a healthy aquatic environment. Waste and leftover food settle and pollute; nothing eats fish poop so it must be removed by us.

The Endlers hanging at the top are indicative of poor water quality. I would guess Ammonia is fairly high and could have lead to your Betta's death. High Ammonia weakened his immune system and left him open to disease and infection. Lethargy and loss of appetite are symptoms of Ammonia poisoning.

In a tank the size of yours with the stocking level you have you need to be doing 50% weekly water changes and _thorough_ vacuuming. Because you have the shrimp and they are sensitive to sudden parameter shifts I would suggest two 25% per week with vacuuming. You can use a piece of airline tubing as a vac to get around plants, decor, etc. That's what I use. 

However as you appear to have gravel you need to use something to get down in the gravel and remove waste. Open several spots where you can shove the gravel vac down into the substrate. It may take you several changes to get out all of the gunk that has amassed in the gravel.

Do you have any photos of your Betta in the tank before he died? That tells us much more than photos of a dead one. Full tank photos will also help.

Sorry you lost your Betta.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*not rude, just sad, shocked and really puzzled - so apologies and help!*

Sorry if I came over rude, actually I was just really upset by it (so that's shocked and abrupt not rude, apologies). He was a nice fish and it was all so sudden! 

All those photos are of the fish dead (after an hour) - so a vibrantly coloured but very dead fish. I couldn't see any sign of disease. The scales were smooth and well coloured.
Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the betta alive.

Bear in mind that British gallons are different from U.S ones. I don't know what 40L is in either unfortunately.

I took advice on getting the fish I got. I was told this was a small species of plec, so whilst he will get much bigger, he won't exceed 3in or so. My tank can apparently hold 16in of fish max (I do occasionally think in Imperial!), so say 3in for the Rummys, 3in for the Endlers, 3in for the Plec, 2in for the Betta, and a few in for the snails and shrimp, which I was told counted much less anyway with regard to biological loading. And since the plec is tiny right now right now the loading is much less.
...and if the tank was overloaded, why are the rummys so visibly redfaced and happy?

Two of the snails are zebra snails, I forget what the other two are (Japan snails?). I was advised that 3-4 snails was about right for 40L. I got them since they were algae eaters - see below.

One of the shrimp actually molted, which I assumed indicates a healthy tank.

Also, the tank is well cycled - initially (pre-betta) the nitrite was high and I despaired, but then it crashed and has stayed really low, as has the nitrate.

Since the nitrogen cycle goes ammonia - nitrite - nitrate, it doesn't immediately make any sense if the bacteria were clearing up the last two but not the first (I have ordered an ammonia test kit though to make sure).

Two of the Endlers are hanging out near the surface, but also jousting with each other. The other Endler doesn't seem bothered and stays further down, as do the Rummys (they lived through the high nitrite, red faced an dhappy, and seem robust).

I can't do much for the pH, the water is really hard here. But hardwater is basically naturally well buffered. And the fish come from tanks in the shops at similar pH.

I have live plants I the tank which seem to have helped too with the nitrite etc - and algae... lots of algae...

I got the plec, the shrimp and the snails since I had a massive algae problem. Why, I don't know. My personal theory is that the high nitrite initially (again, pre-betta) were an excellent fertiliser for the algae, which have overgrown everything and really sucked all the nitrite and nitrate out of the tank, leaving it with ostensibly excellent water quality - which I check every day.


See photo attached. I have black-purple coloured algae on my live and plastic plants. I have patches of red algae on the back pane. The entire front pane had green algae, which the snails, shrimps and plec made inroads into but were fighting a losing battle.
And yes, this tank is not in the sun, nowhere near in fact. The lights on the tank are on about 14h a day.

So, I thought I would clean that front pane, to get a better look at my fish... that's where it all seemed to kick off, or maybe that was just coincidence.

I am left very sad with a dead betta, freaky algae, happy other fish, and always, always fantastic water quality (two different brands of dip sticks, nitrite tablet test, and a pH meter).

Longshots:
It's ammonia even though the nitrite and nitrate is zero. I ordered an ammonia test kit a few hours before the betta died as it happened.
It's hydrogen sulfide from rotting vegetation or algae - there's no smell but I have located and ordered a test kit.
It's low Oxygen. Again I've ordered a test kit.

I really appreciate your advice. I don't care about the cost. I don't want a "pretty" tank. I want happy healthy fish... maybe not another betta if they are less hardy, but they are so nice to look at. I'd settle for right now for no dead rummys or endlers...


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## Aquastar (Jul 17, 2015)

I forgot that Canadian, U.S. And UK are all different. It's well planted so that's good, but the inch/fish rule isn't the best. It's okay in some cases, but I wouldn't live by it. I think you have black beard algae? It's pretty much a lost cause, my friend had to toss a bunch of anubias, Java fern and ludwigia from that stuff, not much eats it anyways, it's always better to find another solution than buy a fish to solve it. Someone said this well: "you should buy the fish for the fish, not so it can clean for you." (Or something) I would try and rehome the pleco anyways because they are pooping machines, which isn't good for a tank with a powerful filter. Some of the poop machines out there are:

Guppies
Platies
Plecos
Goldfish
Most other livebearers

I try and avoid them now. It's better to go under stocked than fully stocked anyways. The shrimp won't eat BBA for you, the only fish that always will is the Siamese algea eater, which reaches 18" and then eats it's tank mates. So no. Try and rehome some of the fish/snails and do larger water changes until you can get them in a larger tank.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*can a betta live here though?*

thanks again. I don't have space for another tank so I was hoping the situation might stabilise if I test for more things and do more water changes. The epic amount of plec poop is actually a sight to behold and quite fun and characterful IF you don't poison your tank as a result. The plec was actually making pretty good inroads into the BBA on the leaves of one of the plants.
Is it true that snails and shrimp contribute much less to the biological load?
Finally, to bring it back to betta, can a betta live in this tank safely?


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## Aquastar (Jul 17, 2015)

Not happily/healthy with some adjustments. I would let the pleco eat off the algae and rehome him, might as well give him a feast. Try adding oak leaves to lower the PH and add some tannins to your water. You could import IALs, but oak is cheaper. Other, yes he should be able to live there.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

How long has your tank been set up? No Nitrites and no Nitrates doesn't mean a tank is cycled. As a matter of fact, a cycled tank will show Nitrates.

Here's something which may help you:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=555434

Bottom line is you need more water changes to compensate for the stock in your tank. According to www.aqadvisor.com you are 120% stocked. You can set to CM instead of inches. And the Rummynose are shoaling fish and as such need a minimum of six.

You can use hydrogen peroxid to kill algae. I would take the fake plants out and dip them. You can also dip the live plants or you can spot treat using a syringe. Turn off the filter and treat one infected plant three days in a row. Leave filter off for 30 minutes. The algae will turn pink and the Amano will scarf it up. You can Google for exact dosage and length of treatment.

One thing to remember is "Not all algae eaters eat all algae." (I made that up. ;-) )


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

When fish die suddenly without first having any type of symptom or visual cause, nine times out of ten it's a chemical issue (ammonia or nitrite) with the water. 

Plants generally stop the anaerobic conditions that cause those gas pockets, so I highly doubt that hydrogen sulfide is the cause. 

Rotting plants, overstocking, uncleaned substrate contribute to poor water chemistry.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

The tank has been set up for a couple of months. The large initial nitrite spike and its disappearance seemed indicative of cycling kicking in (first ammonia, then this gets changed into nitrite, then the nitrite gets cycled to nitrate). There is a trace of nitrate there, but very little. In fact, there is more nitrate in the tap water! So I had assumed the plants and algae were really helping.

The rummys and the endlers often shoal together, so I assumed they were community fish and not fussy about their own species. As far as I can see they are happy. The red faces are a great relief.

Many thanks for the aqadvisor link and many thanks for running my set up for me!
Bear in mind that my plec is currently a very small juvenile. Perhaps the tank is not overloaded right now - or so the dip test results suggest?
Does the aqadvisor account for the snails and shrimp as well? I had basically been told I could add as many of those as I liked within reason.

Is that 120% loading with or without the betta?
Maybe better to hold off another betta until another house/bigger tank.

What concentration peroxide? 3%? That's a powerful chemical to let near a fish tank, I'd say. How can you ensure it is washed off? But if you say it works, I'm happy to hit google...


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Shoaling species need a minimum of six to live long-term healthy lives measured in years and not months. Endlers are not shoaling fish (few livebearers are). Bottom line: You need three more Rummynose.

BTW, I plugged in a filter that has 110 GPH in the AA form as I didn't know what kind of filter you have. And it was run with the Betta. Whomever told you you could have numerous snails is full of spit. Snails have extremely high bioloads. I have one Nerite in my 40L/10 gallon tank.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

OK. thanks. I will run the numbers with extra rummys, no betta, etc etc. as options. I wouldn't feel too bad about euthanising the snails eventually, they could be frozen.
It's an old Fluval filter model, a Trio 2000. I'll run it through aqadvisor when I have time.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Give the snails back to the store. It's not their fault you got too many. Do keep a Nerite.


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

Ballard said:


> Is that 120% loading with or without the betta?
> Maybe better to hold off another betta until another house/bigger tank.


I looked up some of them based on your descriptions (like one of the shrimp is probably ammano and the one snail is probably a pond snail) here's what AQAdvisor said.


Note: Betta [Female] can still become aggressive even if she doesn't show aggression right away. Not recommended to be mixed with peaceful community species. Also, they may jump - lids are recommended.
Warning: Betta [Female] is not recommended to be with Pond Snail - baby snails will likely to become food.
Warning: At least 5 x Rummynose Tetra are recommended in a group.
Note: Bristlenose Pleco needs driftwood.
Warning: Bristlenose Pleco is not recommended for your tank - it may eventually outgrow your tank space, potentially reaching up to 4 inches.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*found the smoking gun - O2*

Dear all, thank you very much for your advice.
I may have found the smoking gun... my O2 test kit arrived and is showing only 2mg/L. So that probably explains my betta's frantic gill movements before his demise. I am still a bit surprised this killed him though since he could (and did) breath at the surface too. Any ideas?
As before, nitrate and nitrite are both basically zero (a hint of nitrate), and pH is 8.0. So we have healthy water but low dissolved O2. That explains the endlers sometimes lingering at the surface.
I will do a water change today and I have express ordered an airstone and pump.
Some quick searches revealed comments like "low tank O2 can be caused by overloading, waste accumulated in the sediment, and too much algae" - so that's three hits that correspond to my tank! :-o
I guess the snails, or removing the algae, or both, just tipped it over the edge.

With the betta gone, the tank is at 110%, but probably actually less since the pleco is a juvenile. The filter is 75L/hour. See attached screengrabs and photos.
I am a bit shocked that this all went south so fast!

I guess the moral is that you can never have too many test kits - I was really being lulled into a false sense of security by the excellent water quality otherwise. That tank SEEMED to be taking it all in its stride.

I think the most humane thing to do is to keep my tank as it is currently stocked and slowly let the denizens expire from healthy old age, and so gradually reduce the load that way. So I guess I will be betta-free for a while :-(

I am relaxed about the rummy nosed tetras because they really DO seem to shoal with the endler's guppies. I had a good look at them doing it this evening. Again, some searching brought up examples of other tank owners seeing the same thing. So I don't think they are stressed and lonely right now.


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

If you're going to keep the tank overstocked, you have to really be anal about keeping the water clean, doing better gravel vacs, and filter maintenance.

Also something to take note of; there will be stress in an overstocked tank. You cannot escape that, so realize that stress lowers the immune system and when that happens they're highly susceptible to sickness and disease. Stress will lessen their life span, so they're not going to live as long as they could. They're also highly susceptible to aggression where normally there would not be any if the tank were stocked properly.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks for the advice Mousie. Actually I don't think the tank is currently overstocked - rerunning AqAdvisor (see photo) with the current size of the juvenile catfish (about 3cm) gives 85%. The catfish will grow of course. But I have a few week or months to consider my options. It doesn't look like any of my friends want to rehouse any of my fish. Actually this means that the tank may not have been overstocked even with the betta, so his death is stil something of a mystery...

That catfish really can poop. See attached photo (roughly 11 times his bodylength).

On a final note, I have some leftover betta flakes. Do you think my other fish will like them? Or is there a betta owner in Londo who might like them?


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

Ballard said:


> On a final note, I have some leftover betta flakes. Do you think my other fish will like them?


Betta are carnivores. Endler and Rummynose are omnivores (ie; they eat both meats and veggies). They'll get some nutritional value from the flakes, but you would need to supplement with another food that gives them the vegetable proteins they need.

Bristlenose pleco are herbivore, so you need something special for them. Sinking algae wafers along with some zuchini and spinach (just to name a few. Google for more veggies and how to prepare them if needed). I've seen most people with pleco say they really go crazy for zuchini. Feed the pleco at night after lights are out.


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## MeredithNa (Oct 13, 2014)

In regards to your algae, turn off your lights for a week, toss every plant with Black Beard Algae, add potassium into your water, and buy a Siamese flying fox. They are VERY similar to Siamese algae eater so you need to know the difference between the two, as it is a good idea to assume people in the fish store are idiots. They do eat BBA though.

Also, buy a bigger tank. I have a 2 foot by 1 foot by one foot (60L) tank with 3 otocinclus, siamese flying fox and a betta, with lots of plants. Eventually the flying fox will need to be rehomed.

In regards to snails, I would get rid of them. The best algae eaters I have encountered are limpets which often come with a plant. They are tiny little white flat things and you can see their work all over the tank. And if you have ever tried removing them, you'll see why they are such good munchers.

Physical removal is the best way to get rid of algae. I battle green hair algae every day of the week. Sigh.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*now finrot as well!!*

Thanks MeridithNa. In a strange way I don't actually _mind_ the algae so much. For one thing, the algae's arrival was the thing that seemed to clear up the nitrite. To this day, despite recent problems, the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are all zero. You could actually see photosynthetic bubbles of oxygen emerging from the BBA but trapped in the gunk!
I only made the fateful decision to clear the algae (mechanically and biologically) when I couldn't actually see into the tank any more! 
The reason I chose "Ballard" as my username was that this sense of the tank out of control, of nature run wild, made me think of some of JG Ballard's stories on similar themes... only now it has all turned more sinister :-(

Main news today: One of the rummys has fin rot! See photo.
Could my Betta have been patient zero for this?
Could a Betta die of fin rot without showing external symptoms? (could it cripple the labyrinthe organ for instance?)

I have upped the concentration of aqualibrium salt whilst I place an emergency order of fin rot medication. This helped a bit - the rummy got its tail markings back over the evening. See attached photo.

Meanwhile I have put in an airline and airstone. The endler's love this and are "surfing" the bubbles up and down. However the rummies are terrified and are cowering on the bottom, and won't feed. The laws of unintended consequences!!!
I will buy some sinking food and see if they acclimatise...
Some of the snails seem hyper, like "radulae on speed". So I suspect the O2 has really put the zing in them. Curiously the O2 test results are only slightly improved so far (see photos). Testing for nitrite, nitrate and now ammonia are all basically zero. PH is now 8.3.

I am not sure if I can post videos here but if not, maybe some of you would like to head over to my Facebook page (real name: Oliver de Peyer) and join me there. This will show my airstones in action and how the other species are reacting.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*snail video*

Actually of course I can post the videos on YouTube (but you are still welcome to friend me on Facebook):

https://youtu.be/TuEZwRd1NO4


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

MeredithNa said:


> buy a Siamese flying fox. They are VERY similar to Siamese algae eater so you need to know the difference between the two, as it is a good idea to assume people in the fish store are idiots. They do eat BBA though.


It's generally never recommended to buy a fish to fix a water chemistry issue. Doing so is a temporary band-aid at best. Algae is caused by either lighting issue, a chemical imbalance in the water, or both. It's better for the tank inhabitants to fix the underlying issue causing the algae. If it's a new tank with diatom algae, then you just wait it out. 




Ballard said:


> Main news today: One of the rummys has fin rot! See photo.


Fin rot is a bacterial infection caused by bad water chemistry as a result of poor tank maintenance. There is no other way for fish to get fin rot. 



Ballard said:


> Could my Betta have been patient zero for this Could a Betta die of fin rot without showing external symptoms? (could it cripple the labyrinthe organ for instance?)


No, not that I've ever seen. 



Ballard said:


> I have upped the concentration of aqualibrium salt


What is that exactly?



Ballard said:


> I place an emergency order of fin rot medication.


What did you order?


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*video of airstone in operation, and fishes' reactions*

And the video of the airstone in operation, with the fishes' reactions: http://youtu.be/FhFTuHz3scs


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Mousie, in answer to your questions, Aqualibrium is a proprietary aquarium salt preparation that one can purchase in the U.K. I don't know what is in it, but it isn't just plain salt because the working concentrations are different. It has a buffering effect as well and tends to bring the pH down slightly. It is supposed to be palliative for nitrite poisoning and infections as well.

For finrot, I have ordered Interpet No.8. Again, this is a proprietary preparation popular in the U.K. I don't know what is in it, but it is unlikely to be a , antibiotic since these are more heavily regulated here.

So I have two fish dead or sick in a few days... it all happened so suddenly! Other than the low O2, the water chemistry seems such good quality... so the tank is not objectively overloaded right now?? But if not then what has caused this sudden deterioration?.... any advice very gratefully received! I have poste youtube links for the videos now if anybody is interested.


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

I cannot locate any ingredient list for this Interpret No. 8, so make sure it is safe for your pleco, snails, and shrimp before adding it to your tank. Specifically make sure it's safe for the pleco.

I did read up on the Aqualibrium salts... not something I would ever use.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks, I'll try to make more checks before dosing with no.8. Of course by the time it arrives the situation may be more serious for my denizens and I may have no choice. Is finrot contagious?

The Aqualibrium did seem to help today - I can honestly say the sick rummy got its tail markings back over half an hour or so a soon as the salt went in. I believe the proposed mechanism is that aquarium salts lessen osmotic stress across the gills for sick fish? (Even freshwater fish have salty blood - so small amounts of salt can lessen gill stress - so they say...)


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

Ballard said:


> Thanks, I'll try to make more checks before dosing with no.8. Of course by the time it arrives the situation may be more serious for my denizens and I may have no choice. Is finrot contagious?


Any fish can get it if there's a mild scrape or rip in fins. However, if the water is kept in pristine conditions then fin rot will never set in. I've personally never had any of my fish get fin rot in the main display tanks. I've purchased fish with fin rot though.



Ballard said:


> The Aqualibrium did seem to help today - I can honestly say the sick rummy got its tail markings back over half an hour or so a soon as the salt went in. I believe the proposed mechanism is that aquarium salts lessen osmotic stress across the gills for sick fish? (Even freshwater fish have salty blood - so small amounts of salt can lessen gill stress - so they say...)


Well yes, aquarium salt has many benefits and does exactly what you say it does. I was mainly referring to the specific product you bought. If the above mentioned things is why you bought it I would switch to API Aquarium Salt instead. 240 grams of Interpret Aqualibrium for 3.99 as opposed to 936 grams of API Aquarium Salt for 1.31, well... that's not rocket science to see which is the better bargain. ;-)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ballard said:


> For finrot, I have ordered Interpet No.8. Again, this is a proprietary preparation popular in the U.K. I don't know what is in it, but it is unlikely to be a , antibiotic since these are more heavily regulated here.


The active ingredient in No. 8 is 2-phenoxyethanol. I know of it as an anti-fungal; I am not aware of any significant antibacterial properties. (It can also act as a sedative to fish, so be certain of the dosage amount and application.) It should be safe for inverts and sensitive fish. 

Just FYI, if you're dealing with a bacterial issue, I'd suggest Waterlife Myxazin. It's also available in the UK although you may have to order it online or go to a store that specializes in fish/aquatics.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

I actually have some of the API salt as well, but that is just seasalt with nothing else. Who knows what is in the aqualibrium product, but at least it has a buffer of some sort. Basically it has more active ingredients than just salt, like the API one. So in the end I stuck with Aqualibrium.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thank you Zhyllis. I had assumed finrot was fungal. Is it sometimes bacterial in nature?
I will see if I can source the Myxazin - many thanks.

Here is a quick video of one of the Endler's valiantly pecking at the algae on one of the infested leaves (the plant is healthy underneath though) - guess the pleco and Nereid snails were at a union meeting at the time?

https://youtu.be/ck-21PTYTTY


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ballard said:


> Thank you Zhyllis. I had assumed finrot was fungal. Is it sometimes bacterial in nature?
> I will see if I can source the Myxazin - many thanks.


Glad to help, Ballard. A fungal infection primarily occurs on necrotic tissue, rarely (if ever) on living tissue, whereas bacterial infections can occur on both. However, the two infections can appear grossly similar as a white, fuzzy or hazy patch. A fungal infection has thin, hair-like projections while a bacterial infection _usually_ appears more slimy. Finrot is a bacterial infection; however, in severe cases, fungus can invade the dead tissue and cause a secondary infection. Interpet No.8 would be effective against a fungal infection, but I'm not sure about a bacterial infection. The use of the aqualibrium salt at the higher medicinal concentration may be enough to tip the balance by further stressing the bacteria. Purely my opinion: Myxazin would be much more effective against both fungal and bacterial infections. 

Your water tests indicate that you have alkaline, hard, and high pH water, which is ideal for treatment with Myxazin (active ingredients: malachite green @ 0.17% w/v, formaldehyde @ 0.24% w/v, and acriflavine @0.11% w/v). There are mixed reviews as far as toxicity to shrimp and snails, but those may be due to usage in soft, acidic water, which increases the toxicity of the formaldehyde, and/or failure to aerate the water as formaldehyde can lower the amount of dissolved oxygen. Be aware that the malachite green and the acriflavine can stain silicon and plastics. And the acriflavine may kill or stress more sensitive plants.


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

Ballard said:


> I actually have some of the API salt as well, but that is just seasalt with nothing else. Who knows what is in the aqualibrium product, but at least it has a buffer of some sort. Basically it has more active ingredients than just salt, like the API one. So in the end I stuck with Aqualibrium.


There's no need to buffer the water unless you have cichlids, other fish that require a very specific pH, or are trying to cycle a tank with pH that is below 7.



Ballard said:


> Thank you Zhyllis. I had assumed finrot was fungal. Is it sometimes bacterial in nature?
> I will see if I can source the Myxazin - many thanks.


Fin rot is a bacterial infection that is in most cases dealt with using an antibiotic. Although at the very first tiny sign of fin rot increased water changes or aquarium salt will take care of it. If it's more than just the beginning stages then an antibiotic is needed. 

Myxaxin contains malachite green, formaldehyde, and acriflavin. Malachite Green is for parasites and fungal infections, and can also be toxic at low pH levels. Formaldehyde is used to treat parasites and gill & body flukes. Acriflavin can be used for fin rot. 

The best medication for fin rot is used in a 30 minute container bath of dechlorinated water, methylene blue, kanamycin, and nitrofurazone.


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

Just to clarify; 

Saprolegnia (only grows on dead or rotting flesh and looks identical to Columnaris, but if you look much closer it has tiny hairs on it the same way mold does). It should be known though that this is not a true fungus. Saprolegnia (protoctista) and fungus (fungi) are from different Kingdoms. When you find a dead fish in a tank and it has white stuff growing all over it, its Saprolegnia. A live fish with this cottony growth on or near a wound is Saprolegnia.

Columnaris (only grows on living flesh and has a white cottony fuzzy appearance like the stuffing from a teddy bear) is a gram negative bacteria.

Both of the above have better treatment results with the above mentioned medicated bath.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*is it finrot though?*

Many thanks for your continued advice. Is it fishrot, though? The fish seemed happier today and had more of their normal colour, the individual with the damaged fin included. But - it is only one fin, not all of his. There is no fluffy border that might indicate a fungal infection. The spines are not sticking up raggedly - it is as though the fin has been nipped (by the betta?) or ripped off, including the spines. So is this finrot at all? I have included the clearest picture I could get. I don't want to dose the tank if it's not actually finrot. Should I just monitor it for a while? Increasing the aqualibrium salt on its own seemed to perk them up. I will still need to find some way to feed them though since the bubbles from the airstone are really putting them off from coming to the surface. Another thing I'd like to ask about is the low O2 results I get - the airstones are bubbling furiously so I can't really believe this, unless something is taking oxygen out as quick as I can bubble it in! Is my testkit duff? What brand would you recommend? Water tests were: Nitrite nil, nitrate tiny trace, H2S none (was a very long shot I know), pH 8.4 (creeping up; why?), O2 still 2mg/L or so - see seperate photo album for that one. Any ideas? Thanks


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ballard said:


> Is it fishrot, though? ... Another thing I'd like to ask about is the low O2 results I get - the airstones are bubbling furiously so I can't really believe this, unless something is taking oxygen out as quick as I can bubble it in...


I can't tell if it is finrot from the attached photo. From what you are describing, there are two things going on: 1) one fish may have finrot and 2) all the fish are/were exposed to stressful water conditions. 

Regarding (1): Based on how small the fish is and how much of the dorsal is missing, it's unlikely to be due to nipping, although a wound could have allowed the bacteria to set in. Considering how little fin is left,_ if it is finrot,_ it could become bodyrot very easily, which would be rapidly fatal in such a small fish. My opinion would be to apply a treatment of some sort rather than waiting and observing.) The most conservative treatment would be daily ~15-25% water changes in addition to maintaining a medicinal dosage of salt (whatever the higher concentration suggested on the aquailibrium box). If it is a bacterial infection, the most effective treatment would be the myxazin. 

(Re: Mousie's suggestion, due to stricter regulations on antibiotics in the UK, neither kanamycin nor furan is available to the general public.)

Regarding (2): The heavy algae growth and rotting bits of vegetation are warning signs that your water chemistry is going bad. You may want to look into a condition know as "old tank syndrome" and see it that matches what has been occurring. Cleaning off the algae may have tipped things over and started an ammonia spike. Fish gasping/pumping gills and hugging the water surface are notable signs, as ammonia blocks uptake of oxygen into the blood. Salt or methylene blue will remedy that.

The low oxygen levels are likely due to the large amount of algae, respiration of the plants at night, and the rotting vegetation. All of which consume a lot of the oxygen. I'd try to remove/kill the algae and use a gravel vacuum to remove as much organic matter as possible. I'm not familiar with the Tetra O2 test kit; I've not seen it in the US so can't advise there, sorry.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Dear Zhylis,
The Interpet No8 has turned up but the Myxazin probably won't arrive until the weekend or next week. Interpet No8 proports to treat bacterial finrot as well, so what do you guys think? Should I try No8 now or see if the rummy can last a couple of days until the myxazin turns up?
The No8 instructions caution that it can't be used in combination with anything else for at least a week. Also I'd have to remove the carbon filter - which could presumably shock the tank itself by removing some purification? (is the same true of carbon filters with myxazin?)

It is also important to note that the rummies were not showing any signs of stress _until_ I put the aeration in. I know it must sound wierd but adding the bubbles has completely changed their behaviour! They used to swim all over the tank and aggressively attack flake food. The bubbles seem to make them cower at the bottom. The Endlers are totally unfazed by comparison (I posted a youtube click of this).
So I am causing more stress by the aeration?
Do bettas mind aeration and bubbles by the way? (Just in case I get another one)

The aeration is so vigorous that I really have a hard time believing the O2 is so low. There would have to be some epic O2 absorbing process going on. The lights are probably on 16 hours a day. Most of the plants are healthy and growing. The snails and pleco seem to be doing their job of debriding rotten material. There are some pockets of more far gone plant matter that I will try to fish out with long tweezers.

I should also add that ammonia is zero. I forgot to put it in my last post but I now test for this routinely with everything else. So the tank is really well cycled - ammonia zero, nitrite zero, nitrate a trace. It has stayed this way even when the betta died and during this apparent finrot! Whatever is going on, it isn't cycle-related - apparently.
So I don't think it is old tank syndrome. As well as the lack of ammonia, the pH is also creeping UP, not down. Why??
There is no H2S. Next on my list of "unlikelys" is to test for phosphate, but that test kit is on back order too.

Another odd thing - two of the nereids seem to be mating! (Shells and soft body intertwined - I removed one but it crawled back and they carried on!). They are different subtypes - a tiger and a zebra. From what I've read, the planktonic nereids will get sucked into the filter if any hatch. But has anybody else seen Nereids mating like this? They prefer slightly salty water so I'm afraid that adding the aqualibrium may have made it just salty enough!
More unintended consequences!! ;-)

Any advice very gratefully received as usual!



A


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hello again!

Since the rummies seem to be doing better with just the salt, I would wait for the myxazin to arrive. I'm not a fan of daisy chaining different medications; it's another source of stress for the fish. 

Re: Interpet No8, the active ingredient is 2-phenoxyethanol, which seems to have specific activity against _P. aeruginosa_ and only weakly against other Gram negative bacteria (data sheet here). The increased salinity is probably just as effective in this case. 

Re: carbon filter, activated carbon is only effective for the first week after installation. After that, it's pretty much extra surfaces for the beneficial bacteria to colonize. Does your filter have separate compartments that allow you to remove just the carbon? If not, you can cut a slit in the filter cartridge and manually remove the carbon, then put the carbon-less cartridge back in the filter. If the carbon is older than 2 weeks, it's effectively dead, therefore you could leave it in with minimal effect on the medication.

Re: aeration, if the filter outflow is causing the water to splash, adding a bubbler to further aerate the water will have less effect on the level of O2 in the water. The idea being that both increase gas exchange by increasing water movement and breaking the surface tension of the water. Short of turning your tank into a whirlpool, there's only so much surface area where gas exchange can occur; it's a matter of diminishing returns. You could position the airstone just below the water line. It will still break the surface tension, but it will be less likely to perturb the rummies. Bettas and bubblers are a case-by-case situation; some are fine while others turn to fin biting. It's a coin toss either way.

Re: water conditions, The betta's reaction sounds like shock and/or toxicity of some sort due to a rapid change in water parameters during the water change. You may want to check TDS (total dissolved solids), especially since you have hard water and also adding a buffered salt. Have you tried testing your water straight from the tap? Is it the same as the tank parameters?

Best of luck!


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## Mousie (Feb 16, 2015)

Ballard said:


> something is taking oxygen out as quick as I can bubble it in!



That's going to happen in an overstocked tank. If the tank is overstocked, the oxygen in the water column is going to become dangerously low. Remember that AQAdvisor is only a guide. Do not depend on it for absolutes.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks again for all your advice

I didn't have time to retest the water yesterday but the rummy seemed to be holding on. I'll monitor until the myxazin turns up. Perhaps the salt on its own will help him mend.

I have ordered a TDS meter but in the meantime I have dug out some Tetra 6-in-1 dip test results from last week. It gives an idea of the tap water versus the tank water. See below.

Take home messages:
My local water company doesn't seem to use chlorine - they use ozone perhaps?

Both samples were very hard water (by Kh and Gh), although the test range of the strips was rather broad.

The tank is more alkaline than the tap water. PH soon creeps up again after a water change.‎
‎
The nitrate in the tap water is noticeably higher than the tank.

The aqualibrium partially sequesters the nitrate somehow. However, even with this it seems performing a water change is like pouring nitrate into my tank, not taking it out!

Tank water tested earlier in week
Cl zero
Kh 7.6-8
Gh 8-16
Ph 8.4
Nitrite 0
Nitrate trace

Tap water
Cl essentially zero
Kh 7.6-8
Gh 8-16
‎Ph 7.9
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 50-100 mg/L
This went down to 25-50 after adding 0.3% aqualibrium, so presumably this sequesters nitrate (or interferes with the test)

Aqualibrium is recommended at 0.1% as a general tonic, 0.3% during a nitrite spike, or 0.9% during other treatments (with a caution not to raise it more than 0.3% a day).
At the moment it is at 0.6%. I would day this is detectably salty - spray from the aeration stone bubbles is drying out to give a crust for instance.*

So I'm not sure I want to go to 0.9% if I can avoid it. 0.5% for extended periods will harm the plants, the instructions say.
‎
Basically I'll go to 0.9% and dose with myxazin if the rummy shows no signs of improvement by the time the myxazin turns up. Does this sound reasonable?

One other thing - I realise now that I had been maintaining 0.3% on autopilot. I had raised it to this during a nitrite spike (the tank hadn't properly cycled when I added the rummys I think, a couple of months back. Luckily they seem nitrite-hardy). But I had basically gone on doing all the water changes at 0.3% too. It was only when I reread the instructions that I realised I should ideally have gone back to 0.1%.*

Could this have affected the betta?
The fish seemed happy enough at 0.3% for a couple of months though.

In answer to other questions:

The carbon filter can be removed separately. However it is three weeks old at the moment, so I may leave it in if I go ahead with myxazin.
‎
The carbon filters are in fact no longer stocked. I had made a new batch for the next one using an aquarium nylon bag and aquarium grade activated carbon granules. I had planned to put this in cautiously with a lot of monitoring - this goes double now.*
‎
This is scheduled for the end of the month - or maybe I should leave it if the tank is still sick?*
One more thing to go wrong?
Or on balance should I put it in in the hope it will scrub out some contaminant that is causing the problems?

For aeration, it is a pretty big filter and throws 75L/hour around the tank. I had put it pretty much in the location suggested by the tank's instructions. You can see good water circulation but it isn't splashing. With the airstones, it sure is now!

One other thing that really stresses the fish is when the lights go on in the morning. I have tried turning on the room lights one by one, and then turning on the aquarium light (a glomax fluorescent strip). But always the aquarium light creates panic in the fish. The shrimp do violent back jetting, and rummys swim wildly at top speed, go and hide, and go very pale. Sometimes they even lose orientation and begin to back-flip. Over an hour or so the cheer up again and come out of hiding with their colours restored.
Is this sort of thing normal?
Any way I can avoid it?
The betta didn't seem to mind so much, or as far as I could see, but it is always a traumatic moment for the other fish.

With the pleco still quite small, I still am puzzled over how the O2 could have got so low. Aqadvisor is a lot more pessimistic about max stocking levels than the tank's own instructions. Obviously though I will be extremely cautious from now on though.
‎
I have ordered a CO2 test kit although that is another unusual one and is on backorder.
The O2 must be going SOMEWHERE, but wherever it is going it isn't leaving any other smoking guns like a poor nitrogen cycle or H2S.

My own take on my betta's unfortunate and premature demise would be something like this:
‎
The tank had a 1L air gap at the top but the lid is close fitting. So, with water changes once a week, it would have been possible for the air gap to go stale or at equilibrium with the dissolved gas in the tank (there is a much smaller feeding hatch in the tank lid, into which we would drop the flakes at feeding time, and then quickly close the hatch).

The tank then goes anoxic, perhaps to do with overstocking or the time I removed the algae, or both.

The betta's gills can't get enough O2 from the water. That explains why its gill movements seemed hyperactive towards the end.

It was observed trying to breath from the surface - but if the air was stale there, there wouldn't have been much O2 in that confined space.

= Dead betta :-(


Or it could have been something totally different. My betta never fed much for instance, and I had been given to understand that they "feed like a little pig". So maybe it was off-colour when I bought it.

Thanks to all your help - my priority now is to stabilise the tank for the remaining fish and try to find and eliminate whatever is causing the low O2 levels (if these are real)
‎


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Glad to hear the rummies are hanging in there!

Re: Water parameters,
Nitrate: That's surprisingly high straight from the tap and is probably contributing to the algae problem. In a balanced tank with live plants, there really shouldn't the heavy algae growth in your first photo. Maybe try adding rapid growing stem plants or swords to help cut down on the nitrates and starve out the algae? Or putting a suitable plant in the top portion of your filter. AquaAurora would be the one to ask about that; she has some amazing plant set ups. Alternatively, I'd strong consider Russell's suggestion to gravel vac the bottom of the tank, which would be a good opportunity to tidy up and replant as needed.

Salinity: Without knowing what percentage of the Aqualibrium is NaCl (regular salt), I personally wouldn't go above the 0.3% dosage. First, too much salt will actually dehydrate fish and plants. Most of my plants are already stressed 0.3% salt. Second, there is such a thing as having too much "stuff" dissolved in the water. When I kept African cichlids (extremely hard water fish), the warning was not to go above a TDS of ~500ppm when buffering the water. Above that point, the fish would have problems absorbing oxygen through the gill membrane. 

I consider 0.1% pure salt to be a tonic dosage, 0.3% to be medicinal, and 3.0% for short baths (seconds to minutes). I've kept goldfish, mollies, and African cichlids at 0.1% long term with no noticeable problems. I personally don't keep freshwater fish any higher than that. 0.3% is a LOT of salt already, and with fish, it's difficult to tell if anything is wrong internally. Not immediately flopping over dead is not the same as thriving.

TDS: Since the GH of your tap water is in the medium hard/hard range, plus the Aqualibrium buffer, I'd guess you're easily at a TDS of 300-400ppm from those two alone. And TDS increases as a tank ages. Curious to see how your numbers turn out. There should be a conductivity to ppm conversion calculator online somewhere...
‎
Re: Myxazin, Sounds good. I'd just leave the old filter in for now; it's only a couple days until the myxazin arrives anyways. After the treatment is done, then I'd replace the carbon with a new bag. I would bring the Aquilibrium back down to 0.1% though before you start treatment.

Re: Lights, Random factoid: teleost fish (like bettas, tetras, and other bony fined fish) can't contract the irises of their eyes like humans. So when the lights go on, the fish are literally blinded. It's like us walking outside right after getting our eyes dilated at the optometrist. They need longer to adapt to the increasing light, so turn on the room lights, then give them ~15min (or more) before flipping on the tank lights. (They will probably still dart about. Adding floating plants will help diffuse the light too.
‎
Re: Theory on betta death, I'm less certain on that hypothesis. Since the betta can take in air at the surface, he would actually the last fish to be affected. They are adapted to thrive in low oxygen conditions, where as the tetras and pleco are completely dependent on DO in the water. They would outright die before the betta. Plus, as long as the lid isn't air tight, air molecules will continue to diffuse in/out to maintain an equilibrium.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks again for your help!
‎
The TDS meter and CO2 test kit have turned up and the results of one of these are rather incredible... see below.

I took 3L out of the tank (a handy volume since I have a 3L jug) and did all the tests from this. I vacuumed up one of the main patches of algae from the gravel whilst doing so. The other main patch is too wedged in between tank items and plants to get at it easily - I will have a think. Maybe I'll improvise a slender siphon with stiff airline tubing.‎‎

O2 still 2-5mg/l only. 5-8.3 would be optimum allowing for temperature
CO2 0-2 mg/L *5-15 would be optimum
H2S 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate piebald, trace (less than 10?)
PH‎ 8.6
TDS‎ 3002 ppm
EC 6400 approx (jittered 6350-6450 or so)
Temp 26'C by bulb thermometer‎

Tap water comparison
Didn't take nitrite or nitrate since out of strips
PH 8.1
TDS 267
EC 580

So the water in the tank is very, very hard!
It's pretty much 10x harder than the tap water - which is hard itself.
What are the consequences of this?
Bear in mind that I doubled the aqualibrium this week to get to 0.6% for the rummy with finrot. But still, before this TDS would presumably have been 1500 or so at the previous 0.3% aqualibrium.
Could this have killed my betta?

Optimum O2 would be 5-8.3 at 26'C
So it is still rather low. Could the high TDS be causing this?

Whatever is causing the low O2 (even with intense agitation), it isn't getting turned into CO2!
There is essentially no CO2 there, or only a trace.*
Could the agitation of the bubbles be essentially taking all the CO2 out of the water with it?
If it really is so low, is there enough for the plants and algae to photosynthesise?

Is the very high TDS interfering with these test results?‎

At 8.6, the pH is trending too high. Perhaps not surprising with so much TDS in the tank!!
What are the consequences of this?
What can I do to bring this down?

As before, there is essentially no ammonia, nitrite or nitrate (a trace of the latter). I didn't test the tap water for this since I was ou‎t of dip strips.‎

I performed a 3L water change - I am going to do maybe two 3L changes a week until the TDS is something sensible (maybe 0.1% aqualibrium).
I don't want to make the water changes too big since I am assuming this will a massive osmotic shock for the fish.

I took another set of readings after the water change using the TDS meter, but I didn't do pH.
My tank has 39L in it so the dilution with the 3L water change is 36/39.

Predicted aqualibrium concentration before water change: 0.6%
After: 0.6x(36/39)=0.554%
Actual readings:
Tds 2903
Ec 6169 - 6411
Temp 21.6'C (so less than the bulb thermometer says? Odd. This was from the TDS meter's thermometer)

Despite their predicament the fish seemed happier today - the rummies were redder and cowering less. The Endlers guppies were active as ever, unsurprising actually since Endlers are hardwater tolerant. I finally got the rummies to eat (they still won't come to the surface because of the bubbles?) using some sinking algal tabs.

Since the water is SO hard, I am not going to try myxazin on top - it just seems too much. Hopefully the rummy with the injured fin will have benefited from the salt bath on its own - it is certainly no worse and is swimming with the others.

So maybe the betta was killed with aqualibrium kindness... but where is the O2?.... and the CO2?....

I am actually a molecular biologist by profession and this is the most complex and perplexing experiment I have ever faced!

Thanks again


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ack, lost my post due to the timeout. I'll try to mention the key points. Also, hello fellow biologist! I also started in molecular/cellular biology, but I've since specialized in retroviruses. Although, at this point, the biological sciences are all interdisciplinary now! Have to know a little bit about everything... And yes, aquariums are an interesting and intricate puzzle!

Re: TDS, I'll refer you to this summary on the interplay of TDS and osmoregulation in fish: click me! Briefly, a moderate TDS will reduce stress on some freshwater fish, especially if they prefer harder waters. However, past a certain point, a high TDS will cause dehydration and eventual health issues in all freshwater fish. And I do believe the TDS factored into the betta's passing. 

As far as reducing the TDS, good idea with the small, regular water changes. I would suggest mixing up a batch of fresh 0.1% Aqualibrium and testing the TDS of that, rather than assuming a direct relationship between the TDS of the tank and the current dosing of Aquilibrium. TDS will increase as a tank ages for various reasons (biological processes, evaporation, etc.). Over time, a 7% weekly water change won't be enough to "reset" the water parameters back to the level of the tap water.

Re: Dissolved oygen, Just curious, what is the DO of your tap water? Many things can contribute to low DO. High TDS = sea water holds 20% less DO than freshwater. High temperature = freshwater at 25°C holds 6.5% less DO than at 20°C. Biological processes also can affect DO = decomposition uses up a lot of DO; algae multiplies very rapidly and consumes a lot of DO; plant respiration also consumes DO. 
A combination of any of these could explain what's happening in your tank.

Re: CO2, While CO2 is an easy source of carbon, it's not the only source in an aquarium. I'll refer you to this brief summary on the carbon cycle: click me!. Plenty of interesting topics on the left if you have time to browse.

Re: pH, I'm pretty certain this is a side effect of doubling the amount of Aquilibrium. It *is* a buffered salt, and sodium bicarbonate is a commonly used buffering agent in aquariums. It should reach equilibrium at ~pH 8.4 and stop there. _Purely my opinion: _your tap water already has a good pH and buffering, there's really no need to use the Aquilibrium except as a treatment when something goes wrong. People run into more problems trying to fix or change their water parameters than if they just did regular water changes. Depending on how many plants are in the tank, I think you'll be fine with just doing 15%-20% water changes once a week.

Hopefully I didn't miss anything during this second go-around.


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks again for all your help

Between one molecular biologist and another, I may, um, have sought of bought a 2nd hand dissolved oxygen electrode meter on eBay... but it is further gone than I have been led to believe so until I have some replacement electrode and calibration solutions I won't have any accurate O2 readings really.

Ditto my pH meter; I am assuming that the slow upwards creep in tank pH may just be down to meter drift (it is a cheap pen-style unit) so I will report back when I have some pH calibration solutions.

What I do have are some more TDS and EC readings after the tank had been left alone for three days without water changes. This gives us empirical data as to how evaporative losses can affect tanks, to the possible detriment of bettas or other inhabitants.

EC was much less, so I take from this that stirred up particulate matter during water changes can increase EC. So, best to record EC before you do a water change it seems.

Results on 24th October as stated previously - water tested was from water siphoned off during water change:

TDS‎ 3002 ppm
EC 6400 approx (jittered 6350-6450 or so)
Temp 26'C by bulb thermometer

Results on 24th October as stated previously, after water change; direct from tank but some particulate matter stirred up during the change:

Tds 2903 ppm
Ec 6169 - 6411 - so say 6240 average
Temp 21.6'C - in retrospect this probably was lower because of the water change

Results on 27th October direct from tank, before water change:
TDS 2927-2933, so say 2930 average
So creeping up again with evap losses?
EC 5213
24.3'C - so not far off the bulb thermometer reading in the tank really

So, the main figure to watch is the TDS, ignoring the EC for now which seems to be heavily affected by siphoning and water changes.

It started out at 3002
It was 2903 after a water change
It had gone UP to 2930 three days after the water change

2903/3002 is 96.7%, i.e. a 2.3% reduction, from a 7.7% water change (3L of 39L). So maybe TDS doesn't scale proportionally with salt concentration? But at least roughly if you do a water change, you dilute the TDS in the tank.

However - after three more days, the TDS is now up. Not as high as 3002, but creeping up again.
I assume therefore that the increase from 2903 to *2930 is the result of evaporation from the tank, particularly caused by the aeration.

It would be tempting, but probably an overestimate, to say that this is on the order of 0.9%, i.e 2930/2903. That would equate to about 360ml lost in three days, which seems implausible - or is it? There is plenty of evaporated precipitate in areas reached by the fine spray from the aerator bubbles, and the tank is moderately warm.

I doubt it is losing hundreds of ml a day but it is certainly losing something and the TDS is at least a semi-quantitative marker of this.

Bottom line - if you put any salt products in your tank, as per aquarium lore and manufacturers' suggested levels, it could well come back to bit you in the posterior and kill your Betta since evaporative losses will really mount up.

I haven't looked at the TDS of aqualibrium salt (or API salt for that matter) but it seems to be that it is a bad idea to add any salt at all, since if you have hard water to begin with, you could start out with a TDS of a few hundred but a few months later have a reading of a few THOUSAND.

Assuming twice-weekly water changes and losing ground at the rate of about 30ppm TDS between each change, I may only actually manage to get it down by about 70ppm per change, or 140ppm per week. To get down to the TDS of London tap water, which is classed as very hard and is 270 or so, will take:
(2930-270)/140=19 weeks!*
‎
It seems unwise to increase the water change volume much - the osmotic shock to the fish would be too large.

I went ahead with another 3L water change, for what it's worth the predicted aqualibrium concentration is now:
0.554%*(36/39)= 0.511%
- although maybe I should start adjusting this for actual TDS changes and evaporative losses.

The tank remains well cycled - despite using sinking algae tabs to feed the rummies (still cowering from the bubbles), which by definition sit and break up in the tank, nitrite was still 0 and nitrate was 10-25 (I find the test strips pretty useless, since they often give variegated colours, as in this case)

This is a data-rich betta crisis... I have started writing these posts offline and then cutting and pasting them in!‎

Thanks again‎


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ah, I'm in a similar situtaion with "lab" equipment, but I haven't pushed the buy button yet. I'm not sure if they're US-only, but www.labx.com is an excellent site for new/used/refurbished lab equipment and supplies. I've been looking at CO2 and PAR meters. I keep planted tanks and have been playing around with a new light fixture. It has a much higher light output than any of my previous fixtures, although I dont have a quantitative measure. (And I've been contemplating switching to a pressurized CO2 system...)

A ~10% loss over 3 days is a bit heavy but still within a reasonable amount. Depending on the tank, I'll see anywhere from a 5-20% loss over a week. It's heavily affected by the surface area of the tank, the amount of surface agitation, the fit of the tank cover, and the difference in temperature between the water and the room. (And yes, evaporation is one of the reasons why I favor 25-50% water changes. Otherwise, it's next to impossible to restore the water parameters in the tank to "tap water standard".)

It's not the increase in water volume that is the problem with larger changes; as you noted, the problem is in slowing the change in water parameters to avoid shocking the fish. You could increase the size of your changes by using a drip line to introduce the water more slowly. It's like drip acclimation except in reverse: clean, conditioned tap water drips from a bucket into a tank. At 1 drop per second (or slower), you should be able to exchange 25-30% of the tank water over the course of a day without stressing the fish. (And all you need is a bucket and about 1.0-1.25 m of airline hose.)



Ballard said:


> ...since if you have hard water to begin with, you could start out with a TDS of a few hundred but a few months later have a reading of a few THOUSAND.‎


*^ Thank you for bringing this up.* This right here is an extremely common problem in aquariums that very few people understand and why I cringe every time someone says they just "top off the tank" without doing regular water changes._ It is especially deadly in small tanks and bowls._


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*TDS getting harder! Phosphate high!*

Dear Zhylis,

Thanks for the labx link... I fear I may starve to death looking through it and forgetting to eat! I can't see the CO2 meter but there is a nice World Precision Instruments ISO2 dissolved oxygen meter. However, it doesn't come with electrode solution or zero oxygen calibration solution, so beware of falling into the trap I did (basically needing to spend more than I did on the meter on accompanying solutions and buffers).

I have also experimented with a timer autodimmer to light up the tank without shocking the fish, but the first unit broke after two days. More cash to hemorrhage on a more reliable replacement....

But I digress!

Firstly, I think a 10% loss over three days really might be what is happening!
So I will pin that with my betta's sad demise (although much of the TDS increase will have occurred post-betta, because of the aeration and the aqualibrium I added for the finrot - both of which now seem a tad counterproductive...)

I did another 3L water change today but it still didn't seem as full as before. So I added more water until it was back to the water level I remembered (I always leave a gap at the top since I have a leaky seal at one corner). It took 4.5L, not 3L! So I have basically lost another 1.5L over the last week or so since I introduced the aeration.

I might go for 3L daily changes to get on top of this.

I had considered a drip change like you suggest - I have had a look at perstaltic pumps. Price is OK but you can't change out the tubing, which presumably would be the first thing to wear out. I have a 3D printer and there is a peristaltic pump design on Thingiverse, so I might make my own.

I am also reeling from two more test results today.

Murphy's - or Ballard's - Law of fish tank tests - the more test kits you buy, the more weird and serious results you find.

From my previous post, I had thought that if I went back to the tank today, after things had settled down after yesterday's water change, I would see a modest decrease in TDS.
Nope!

TDS was 3204-3172, so it had increased substantially.
EC also way up, at 6698-6787
This could be a faulty meter though - I found water ingressing into the battery compartment and EC altered a lot if I was touching the aquarium lid or otherwise.
However, testing some tap water gave:
TDS 263
EC 566
So fairly consistent with before (maybe the meter is working after all).

Softened tap water gave:
TDS 216
EC 459

- so not very "soft". After a bit reading, potable water softeners (like "Brita") don't decrease TDS - they just ion exchange troublesome species like carbonate for chloride ions instead.

So - why is my tank TDS going up despite water changes?
Again, reading up a bit showed that TDS is not just mineral species, it can be other things like uneaten food, waste from the fish, etc etc.

OK now for the next test kit that turned up!:
Phosphate

See attached photo! 
Its 2-5ppm. Should really be zero!

So, fish waste, rotting plant waste, algae etc - all of which have been fingered in this thread previously - are busily degrading away and creating a high phosphate environment. This is turn is increasing the amount of algae, so a vicious cycle.
This process is presumably also causing my low O2 levels.
Reading up about my low CO2 levels reveals that aeration can often cause low CO2 levels since the bubbles are effective at churning the CO2 out of the water. So there isn't really a paradox there.

Please let me know if I have got anything wrong so far.

So, I have a triple pincer attack on my tank!
1) Very high TDS - partially caused by aeration, which is to prevent:
2) Low O2, presumably caused by rotting material in the tank, evidenced by:
3) High phosphate levels!

I will carry on daily gravel siphoning and water changes and try to make sure I am putting more fresh water into the tank each day than I am losing! 
I'll also try to fish out anything clearly rotten-looking - some of the plants are shedding leaves for instance - but some of this is really wedged in nooks and crannies.

Wish me luck and have I missed anything?....


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hello again!

Response delayed on account of Beggars' Night over here in the US, (little munchkins in costumes everywhere). And if a bit of chocolate has disappeared into my belly, well, no one needs to know. Speaking of candy, yes the LabX site is a virtual candyland for scientists. I've lost many hours browsing that site. It's dangerous to time and pocketbook... but oh, the toys.

Re: Drip line, I wasn't even considering anything as complicated as a pump, although that would work as well. Following the KISS principle, running an partially clamped airline hose from a bucket on a shelf or stand placed above the tank works just as well by gravity.

Re: Phosphates, Yikes, that's high; not too surprising what with the heavy algae growth, as you noted. Sounds like you've got a handle on what's gone off with your water parameters though so hopefully smooth sailing from here on out.

Best of luck!


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Hello again!
The strategy doesn't seem to be working though - even after the 4.5L water change that I referred to in my last post (12%), the TDS is staying stubbornly high. It just isn't coming down:

29th oct
EC 5588 - 5616
25.4'C
TDS 2996-3200 Inc's with time

One thing to note is that the EC and TDS readings kept creeping up whilst the TDS meter was in operation. In fact, they never really settled. So a high reading could just be an effect of really trying to leave the probe to settle.*
It's a cheap probe. I guess you get what you pay for.
I will try taking small aliquots and then sitting the probe in one for a good 5 minutes or so, and seeing if the reading settles. The baseline readings in neat tap water have been more steady. Maybe the tank TDS is just way too high for the meter! ‎

From reading up elsewhere, TDS is not a separate measurement - it is calculated from EC. There are a couple of ways of doing this, based on what is assumed to be the solute - one method assumes NaCl, another assumes a discrete mix of other salts. Evidentally my meter is set for NaCl, since roughly speaking EC in uS x 2 = NaCl concentration in ppm, which matches the readings my meter is giving (bearing in mind the slow upwards shift in both readings the longer I leave my meter immersed).

But it can't really be ~ 3000 ppm NaCl! Or can it? From Wikipedia, that is still "brackish" water, for instance from an estuary, not sea water (35000ppm). But it is a concern that it doesn't come down. Is this the aqualibrium? Or some other runaway contributor to the TDS? A biological component?‎

I have ordered a cheap refractometer, since I am trying to find out what component of this high TDS is salt and what is something else. By my calculations, after recent water changes the concentration of aqualibrium should still be around 0.5%
So 0.005 * 1000000 = 5000 ppm - so if anything TDS is low. But either low or high, the darn thing won't go down with water changes! How WILL I get it down?‎
‎
I think it is worth getting to the bottom of this as part of this thread since TDS seems like a neglected issue in betta care and fish care in general.
‎
Clearly from my own experience, you can have a well-cycled tank with zero ammonia and nitrite, but all the time - due to evaporation and biological load - the TDS is going up, the phosphorus is going up, and the dissolved O2 is going down. TDS threads elsewhere (are we allowed to cross-post from other fishy fora?) say high TDS are a question of "when not if" as tanks get older (how old is old though? This hit me after only 2 months).

If you only test for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate then this catches you totally unawares.

*However I do know three other tropical fish hobbyists who rarely do water changes and whose tanks are basically stable with no intervention for months at a time. So what is the trick?

Meanwhile, my fish are hanging there (the finrot seems to have healed up substantially), although the BBA gets worse and worse... it is basically spreading from plant to plant, including the fake ones, forming a single huge black mass. Is this a side effect of the high phosphorus?
I have ordered an API phosphorus ion exchange resin since I don't think it can any harm at this point!!

Happy halloween - I think I will take my tank trick or treating


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hello Ballard, 

It seems your tank is more interested in tricking than treating! 

One way you can test your TDS meter: Take a sample of tap water, one of tank water, and one that is a 1:1 solution of tap and tank. If the TDS meter is accurate, it should read an ~50% difference. If not, well... caveat emptor!



> Clearly from my own experience, you can have a well-cycled tank with zero ammonia and nitrite, but all the time - due to evaporation and biological load - the *TDS is going up, the phosphorus is going up, and the dissolved O2 is going down*. TDS threads elsewhere (are we allowed to cross-post from other fishy fora?) say high TDS are a question of "when not if" as tanks get older (how old is old though? This hit me after only 2 months).
> 
> ...However I do know three other tropical fish hobbyists who rarely do water changes and whose tanks are basically stable with no intervention for months at a time.


These are actually three symptoms of old tank syndrome (OTS). And "old" isn't really a temporal measurement, it's more a descriptor of the overall tank environment. Many things factor into how fast a tank can reach this tipping point (higher bioload, smaller/less frequent water changes, decrease in the redox potential, etc.), and the tipping point is different for each tank. How large are their tanks (larger tanks are more stable)? What type of fish do they keep (some fish are hardier; betta and tetras are soft water, low TDS fish)? How heavily stocked are their tanks? How often and how large of a water change do they perform? What parameters do they test?

To counteract OTS, at one extreme, there's the Walstad method or natural planted tank (NPT), which uses dirt, heavy planting and low bioload to balance the system so that OTS takes years to occur. Most aquariums are closer to the opposite end of the spectrum and require human intervention in the form of frequent water changes to maintain the balance. (Side note: It's not so much that TDS is a neglected issue; it's more that TDS is Aquariums: Master level. You have to have a pretty deep understanding of your water parameters and how they interact as a system.)

If that intervention doesn't occur, that's when the water parameters start to drift. That shift occurs in small incriments over time, which allow the fish to adjust to the additional stress. That doesn't mean it's a healthy environment though. A native to Beijing might not notice the affect of all that smog on a day-to-day basis, but you or I would probably be coughing a bit. Three guesses what long term exposure to that type of pollution does to overall health. The same thing holds true in the aquarium. Sub-lethal conditions are only obvious after disaster strikes. It's easy to point to something being wrong when a fish gets sick/dies. But just because the fish are alive doesn't mean that nothing is wrong. As you found out, it wasn't until you started testing different parameters that you could identify what parameters were off. So maybe those other hobbyists' tanks are stable, maybe they're not. Without knowing their water parameters, it's hard to say.

I truly think the size of your water change isn't sufficient to overcome the rate at which the TDS is increasing. Remember it's the cumulative effect of evaporation, hard and alkaline tap water, and the many biological processes occurring in the tank. To give you a comparison, here's one of my tanks which is a rough equivalent to your own in terms of size and bioload. It's a bare-bottom, grow-out tank for some juvenile bettas I've bred. It's 10 gallons (US), approximately 38 liters when full, which contains 6 juvenile betta (~2.5-3.0cm in length), 1 mature female betta, 4 nerite snails, and assorted plant cuttings. 









This is what the bottom of the tank looks like. And I clean the bottom along with performing a 30%-50% water change every 2-3 days. The *entire* bottom of the tank looks like this. The four nerites especially put out a lot of solid waste.









I threw in a lot of plant cuttings in order to manage the ammonia that is being produced, as monitored by the Seachem Ammonia Alert in the photo above. (Best invention ever. Real time, in-tank measurement of ammonia levels using a colormetric indicator that's good for 1 year.) 









In your situation, it might be easier to tear down the tank and start fresh. Give the tank a good scrub down and wash out the gravel, but leave the filter and cartridge alone to re-establish the beneficial bacteria. I'd give the plants a quick dip in a 5% bleach solution to remove some of the algae, then let them soak in water treated with 5x dechlorinator. The fish would need to be slowly acclimated to the new water conditions though. 

Well, TGIF and have a good weekend!


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks again

The TDS meter gave up the ghost completely - despite being a dip meter it turned out not to be waterproof and the circuitboard and battery got completely rusted up! Go figure. Anyway, Amazon refunded me. I have a more expensive pro-level meter on order.
I tested phosphorus as a sort of a proxy for dissolved living gunk, and it hadn't shifted, despite several water changes this week... still 2-5mg/L

This is by far the most personally expensive and complicated project I have ever undertaken... far more complicated than making G.M tobacco plants expressing a lens membrane protein from the eyes of cows, for instance. That worked first time:
http://www.molvis.org/molvis/v5/a23/

Anyway, betta care/aquaria is difficult!!
You mention redox potential... gulp... do I have to monitor that as well?

I can't really start over with the tank - my apartment is too small. I basically squeezed the existing tank in as it is. Along with all the other "if onlys", I wish now I had planned for a quarantine tank all along. Then at least I could have isolated the betta or the rummy with finrot at the first sign of trouble, and if necessary dosed just that tank with aqualibrium or myxazin etc.

Your tank is indeed a close analogue of my own. I guess my gravel is hiding a multitude of fish/snail p**p sins. But what it definitely isn't hiding is the BBA. It is getting worse and worse all the time. Much of the gravel is now totally coated with it. It is basically spreading faster than I can siphon it. I siphon a large patch during a water change... next day... big build up in another patch. And so on. I will try to go for 5L changes instead of 3L ones, and if all else fails, 12L ones (depends on size of available jugs and buckets!)

The BBA is beginning to serious denude my tank of plants basically it completely envelops them. They hang on for a while but then they die underneath. During yesterday's water change I scooped out what had been some hornwort. It was basically now a solid jellied lump of BBA in my fingers.

Some Rotundifolia is hanging on there and occasionally manages to put out a fresh green shoot that bursts through the BBA. But there is less in there than there used to be!

There is some hygrohilia - I think it is anyway - with blade like monocot leaves. It has been hanging in there but the leaves are heavily BBA'd and it shed a couple over the last week.

All these plant I.Ds are approximate by the way. I can't find the original receipts. I have tried to I.D the species from photos but with the BBA cover so heavy it is a difficult task. The bottom line is though that the tank is looking emptier as the plants succumb. Ultimately might this end up with a nitrite spike as well?
I think I will buy some more moss balls; they seem to resist the BBA build up somewhat more (but still end up coated in the end...) and hold themselves together physically better.

I dream about owning a siamese flying fox, but AqAdvisor says it is a definite no-no for 40L.

What do people think about under-gravel filters?
It would at least stop waste stagnating on the gravel, keeping it agitated and aerated. It also makes for a bigger filter area and more gentle, all-over aeration. That belongs for my dream tank #2... (not kidding - I did actually dream this. I had a kitchen, in the dream, with a huge tank, and I had a half-tank, half-sofa as well. Very Cronenbergesque). You know, the one you can't really afford, with no BBA, a siamese flying fox, and a betta.

Back in the real world, the rummies are a bit happier recently - redder faced and exploring the tank more. Maybe they are getting more used to the aeration and benefiting from the slow diluting out of the aqualibrium (if not the TDS...). See attached photo. The ominous black mass in the foreground is BBA!
Perhaps they will just deal with the TDS? I will keep a close eye on it and hopefully it will eventually go down.
By my calculations the aqualibrium itself should be down to about 0.48%, and I will see if the refractometer confirms this.

Many people say not to worry so much but I DID get dead and ill fish, and upon digging, some worrying test results to match. I guess everybody gets OTS sooner rather than later - question is, can I save the tank in situ. Testing for more parameters rather than less should hopefully give one the heads-up sooner rather than later as these things develop.

Happy halloween everybody


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Good morning/afternoon (depending on locale)!

Interesting read on expressing MIP in tobacco. (And congrats on getting it to work on the first attempt, which is a small miracle on its own.) Transmembrane proteins are always a pain in the posterior to study between the post-translation modifications and getting them to fold correctly...ugh. I did some work with plants while getting my bachelor degree (sadly nothing published), mainly using previously new microarrays to study circadian rhythms in _Arabadopsis_ while in academia and then studying/identifying resistance markers for Dutch Elm disease and Emerald Ash Borers at the USDA. But I've found my home in retroviruses; they're much easier to manipulate! (And less waiting around.)

Ouch, sorry to hear about the TDS meter; that's ridiculously poor engineering. And no, there's no need to test for redox potential; I was just using that as an example of a water parameter. Redox is... complicated. I haven't fully grasped how it affects everything else. On the plus side, it's just like any other parameter: easily reset via water change.

Re: starting over, I think I mis-spoke. What I meant was to put the fish and plants in a jug/bucket and then completely drain and clean the existing tank. If possible, haul the tank into the shower and rinse out all the algae and poop. Then set up the tank with fresh, conditioned tap water and slowly acclimate the fish to the new water. (The plants may be a lost cause if they're heavily coated with BBA.)

And yes, what is happening is the algae is out-competing (and killing) the plants. When it runs out of nutients, the BBA will start to die off, which will result in an ammonia spike > nitrite spike > nitrate spike. Best to manually remove as much of the BBA as possible. I wouldn't add any more plants until you've reduced the TDS significantly. Any new plants will most likely dehydrate and then die off at your current TDS. 

Dream big! (I dream of the kitchen counter tank...one day.) Before getting into live plants, I actually liked undergravel filters. But they also require maintenance. Even though they trap the assorted living gunk below the gravel, they don't physically remove it from the system. It just continues to accumulate, and it is_ literally_ fertilizer for plants and algae. Having any BBA or any algae at all is a sign that something is wrong in the tank. 

If you want to minimal tank maintenance, then I'd suggest looking into setting up your tank as an NPT using the Walstad method. Here's the basics. Her book is also a good reference, *very* heavy on the data.

Best of luck and glad to hear the rummies are doing better!


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*phosphate in the tap water!!!*

Hello again!
I have had another "for crying out loud" test result which I will come to in a moment. I know they keep coming, but I keep thinking of unlikely things to test, which then throw up incontrovertibly weird and worrying results.

Firstly, the new expensive TDS meter turned up. It does the job properly and settles quickly. I checked it with fully distilled water - 0 ppm. I tested it with 0.6% aqualibrium - 5728 ppm not 6000, and since this was measured out using my kitchen scales and jug, almost certainly just human error (~ 5%). So pretty darn good. Finally I diluted this 50:50, which gave 2810 instead of 2864, so again pretty darn good and within 2%, again no doubt human error in the dilution (purely done by eye using the graduations on a 50ml Falcon tube).
So this probe is fully calibrated and zero'd. It's a HM digital COM-100, if anybody is interested.

It is also clear the aqualibrium is just NaCl, maybe with a soupcon of something else. The COM-100 can be set to NaCl, KCl or a environmental salt mix known as 442. All the above figures are for NaCl. So a 0.6%, 0.3% etc aqualibrium solution basically exactly matched the corresponding NaCl ppm reading.

To get an idea of background hardness:
Brita filtered water 260 ppm
Tap water 332 ppm
So pretty hard, but significantly different from the cheap TDS probe (avoid, avoid, avoid those)

O.K, the tank itself:
4060ppm
At 25.5'C (a nice quick thermometer is built into the probe too)

If anything then the tank is less brackish than I predicted - maybe I forgot I did a water change or two or I put less aqualibrium in than I remembered. By my records we should be at about 4500ppm now. Either way it is significantly brackish and way beyond most tanks. However at least the main component is aqualibrium salt and not tank organics? - in that the reading is close enough to the predicted aqualibrium concentration without a huge chunk of unknown nasties on top.

At least now I have a proper tool for monitoring the long, long trip diluting down to a (still hard) 332 pm tap water hardness. Hope the fish hold in there.

So, TDS meter in hand, this evening's project was to do another water change, and see if the TDS diluted down as predicted. I had my menagerie of test kits out and ready to go as well.
But I never got that far!

Some little instinct told me to retest the tap water first. I think I remember reading somewhere that in England they sometimes add phosphate to the potable water supply, to stop metals such as lead leeching into the water from old pipes (and there are still a lot of old pipes, including lead ones, in London). And I had already shown previously that the nitrates in the tap water were also quite high.

And what I got was:
Tap water phosphorus content: 5-10mg/L!
Tap water nitrate content: 50mg/L!
See the photos of the tests if you don't believe me.

Upon checking, I found that 1mg/L is meant to be the amount added by the utilities, but it has often been measured higher than this in consumer water samples, typically 2.5mg/L. So my test may be a bit inaccurate, but quite possibly not, and even if it is a bit off, there are still many mg/L in the water!

So my OTS tank? Well, hats off to the BBA and the remaining plants, it is actually cycling like crazy - it is in fact cycling both nitrate and phosphorus. *
If you look previously in this thread, you will see that in fact the tank nitrate and phosphorus are both _lower_ than the tap water. In other words, the tank is making a good fist of sequestering the nitrate and phosphorus, presumably into the cells of the plants and algae, and hiding it away that way.

I guess therefore that I am _never_ going to get rid of algae in this tank. It is essentially impossible. The tank will constantly be heavily refertilised from the tap water.

So what the heck do I do now?
Is it ever safe to keep a betta in this sort of water?
If not, what CAN I keep?

I will try an API phosphate-removing resin - I already have it so why not. I assume it will be quickly exhausted though.

I may even try taking out the worst BBA'd fake plants for aesthetic reasons, and dosing them with Oxi-Clean™ or similar before putting them back. But with that much phosphorus, it will all just come back...

What I don't think I can try is R.O though. British users of R.O aquaria products like the API Tap Water Filter system report that each filter cartridge is exhausted within 12 U.K gallons - so hardly worth doing for the cost. The short lifespan of the cartridge is hardly surprising given such high water solutes.

For what it's worth, I also checked all this against my utility's most recent water test results. Phosphates are not a mandatory test item but I will contact them directly to ask. Nitrates are in the ballpark - my tests are a bit higher than theirs but could just be the different dates or my test kit. pH is in the ballpark (heading towards 8). Hardness is hard to compare directly, since the meter is measuring Nacl, and that is what the aqualibrium probably is, but hardness is of course actually CaCO3, and the meter doesn't have a CaCO3 setting.

So - once again - sheesh! - please help, what should I do now?
And a huge THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP as always.

The fishies still seem fine.... Maybe this just doesn't faze them as much as one might think. But put it this way, they aren't going to live _longer_ in water like this...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Salutations! 

I may have to purchase that TDS meter for my own use; it's rather nice. Compact as well. Hrmm, very tempting.

Nitrate is on the upper end of the range, but _WOW_! That is a frightful amount of phosphorus in your tap water. Could your water treatment plant be using it to soften the water or does UK water naturally run high in phosphates? I'm leery of using chemical means to reduce phosphates; from what I know of the resins, most work by ion exchange. So for every molecule of PO4 bound, the resin will release 3 Cl- or OH-. The Cl- would affect the TDS, while the OH- may affect the pH. It's a "lesser evil" situation. Alternatively, trying to precipitate it would be my least favorite solution. Doing so would 1) reduce the amount of dissolved oxygen, 2) drastically change the water chemistry in an unpredictable manner, and 3) only be a temporary solution as the reaction is reversible.

Heavily stocking the tank with rapidly growing plants while also reducing the amount of daily light (7-8 hours) might allow you to favor plant growth over algae. Any plants that have leaves that access the water surface are good nutrient sinks: (floating) water sprite, frog bit, red root floaters. Heavy root feeders are also good at depleting nutrients (*cough* fish poop) that accumulate under the gravel: swords and cryptocornes. Fast growing stem plants like your hygro, rotala, ludwigia, myrio are usually pretty efficient and hardy, although they're usually the first to fall to algae. Dwarf lilies and "banana plants" absorb huge amounts of nutrients, to the point where they can starve out neighboring plants. You can also put some common house plants right into the top of your HOB filter, like pothos or peace lily. (Google "riparium plants" for additional ideas.) They'll pull a lot of the nitrate and phosphate right out of your tank.

The things we do for our fish!


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

Thanks again!
‎
*Got off the phone with Thames Water today. Their weekly phosphate testing shows an average of 1.5mg/L, nothing above 1.59mg/L. My test kit apparently shows the tap water much higher than this, so it may be leeching from the local plumbing. I've asked the building's management company to look into it and will doublecheck with another kit.*

I will work through your excellent list of plants and see what is available at local stockists.*
Incidentally I think I totally mis-ID'd my plants in my earlier post - I went back to the shop over the weekend and leafed (pardon the pun) through their plants catalogue. I'll compare that to what's left in my tank when I have a chance. Basically the algae have killed off and rotted everything except for a few stragglers which will make everything harder.*
I bought a few moss balls as a stop-gap - they seem to resist the algae better.

People have suggested to me that I should get rid of the fake plants in the tank and add lots more real ones. I guess I should go to town at this point...

*It has also been suggested to me that I get a tilapia. I know that some of these are very halotolerant (see Salton Sea). What would a tilapia bring to the tank, except less likelyhood of dying? (will see if PetsatHome stocks them! *

Are we definitely in never-betta territory here? My daughter still covets having another one day.

This is a really alice-in-wonderland situation, where water changes dump lots of phosphate and nitrate into the tank, instead of taking them out!

For what it's worth, TDS is now 3950, so down slightly. So maybe there is an organic component? Otherwise you would expect it to go up with evaporation, not down. Maybe the moss balls sequestered something.

Do I have anything to lose with a ion exchange resin at this point? With a TDS of 3950ppm, losing 10ppm or Phosphate and gaining 30ppm or something else isn't going to make much difference, and the tank is probably very heavily buffered (calibration solutions turned up for the pH meter by the way, so I will report back on that).*
Or am I missing something?

Again, many thanks
Fish keeping... In London... <he laughs manically>


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Apologies for the delay; I'm setting up a couple spawns and plotting a few future crosses over here. Mwahaha, more bettas.

With your tap water, I'm all in favor of going to town with the plants. Just double check which ones thrive under low/medium light conditions, and you should have minimal issues. I would at least put a riparium plant in your HOB filter; that's the quickest and safest method to reduce nitrates and phosphates in your tank.

I would personally avoid the tilapia, but that's my opinion. First, they will out grow your current tank; at maturity, even the smallest tilapia species will require a tank 3-4-fold larger than the one you have currently. The bigger species will need a tank 10-fold larger at maturity. Second, I would classify them as an aggressive and territorial fish, best kept in a biotope or species tank. Those endlers and rummies would be a tasty snack. 

I think once you reduce the salinity back down to normal levels and then heavily planted the tank, you should be able to safely introduce a new betta. While I don't have your phosphate levels, I find that my bettas are very tolerant of high pH and hard water. Depending on the time of the year, my pH is usually 7.8-8.2 with a TDS of 250-350ppm straight out of the tap. (I do adjust my water parameters when breeding, but the juveniles and "pet" bettas are fine with the regular water parameters.)

Re: phosphate resin, It depends, just keep in mind that it's a ~6% increase in TDS compounded by an evaporative loss of ~20% per week, your water parameters will drift a little faster. Every 3-4 months, I'd personally do a 85-90% water change to reset everything.

Glad to be of help! Now, off to separate my poor abused orange female from her ardent suitor...


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*Phosphates higher and higher and trouble with plants*

Good luck with the baby bettas!

Regarding my own water quality, I have in fact not done a water change this week, since I have been distracted by chasing up the tap water phosphate issue and by some other things. I did another TDS check yesterday... still 3950.

So maybe there isn't much evaporative loss from the tank after all. However, the water level is definitely going down (I did a 1L top-up! Will do a 13% water change tonight).

This isn't necessarily a contradiction. I have noticed droplets of water leaking out around the edge of the lid. Basically I think the aeration is vigorous enough that it is blasting droplets out of the surface of the tank - you can feel them with your hand, like holding your hand over a soda. There is definitely evaporated solids on the inside surface of the lid and around the edges. But basically "droplet blasting" is removing droplets physically from the tank instead of evaporation off the surface, so the tank is not necessarily getting more concentrated? Or have I got this wrong?

...or the TDS meter is giving a false reading? But it seemed OK when I tested it with some reference salt solutions (see earlier in thread)

Whatever the TDS, the nitrate is beginning to creep up (see photo) - currently 50mg/L. This is the first time I have seen the nitrate so high - maybe the plant die-off is having an effect. So time for a good water change and more plants. Nitrite is still zero so the tank is still cycling OK.

I also tested with a higher range phosphate test, acting on the assumption that the previous kit was off-scale. The new test came back at 50mg/L! See photo.
I am urgently chasing this with my building's management company.

Does anybody have any suggestions of what could be causing this?
I thought it might possibly be backwash from the washing machine (maybe improperly installed with no no-return valve) but I would have thought the water would be noticeably tainted if this was the case. It looks and taste pretty good. The phosphate just seems sky, sky high and almost two orders of magnitude higher than the water company's own test results. 

I think with two test kits showing this, and having done the test multiple times, the phosphate really IS very high.

Coming back to the tank, I need to do a water change anyway since the nitrate is on the way up. In doing so though I am dumping masses of phosphate into the tank.

My next step then is to comprehensively replant the tank to soak up phosphate. 

What I had in the tank previously was (I think, based on the aquatics shop photo catalogue):
Cabomba
Traditional Weed (Elodea)
Lucky bamboo
Moss balls

Basically the Cabomba and Elodea is almost totally gone - completely overwhelmed by the BBA. Only a couple of tiny struggling shoots left, nothing longer than the end of your thumb.
The Lucky Bamboo is hanging in there but heavily BBA'd. 

What gives me pause for thought is that a few people have recommended I add more Cabomba. But that has already got wiped out. If Caboma can't survive in my tank, then what can?
What is the problem here?
Is it the phosphate levels directly?
Is it the BBA, caused by the phosphate?
Is the tank underlit? It currently has a 40w GloMax strip, and this is on about 14 hours a day.

I am planning to buy Swords mainly, since they are on your list of suggested plants and they are pretty cheap in bulk. I was going to buy ten of these, and also a banana lily plant, from an online stockist.

I may go back to the same aquatics shop to get the Swords first though, since I have spotted in the same photo catalogue that they apparently stock them for a similar price. 

Also, the online stockists all seem to treat their plants with copper to prevent invasive snails and shrimps - their stocks are all imported. Since I have snails and shrimps in my tank this is a problem. I would need to wash the plants over several days prior to adding them to my tank, two of the online stockists recommended - and I don't have a spare tank to keep them happy in during this process. 

So this gets more complicated all the time! I am about $500 down so far. It has turned into a hell of a project, but I think a lot of this is down to the weird tap water.

Ironically the fish all seem happy right now and the rummies in particular are more active and rummy-faced. Gotta find a long term solution for that phosphate though and keep the nitrates down...


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*swords, 40mg/L phosphate, and halogen spots*

Just a brief check-in - as mentioned in my last post I have now added 6 swords to the tank. It now looks pretty heavily planted - see photo. I have taken out all the fake plants. Even after soaking these for a couple of hours in OxyClean™ I couldn't get all the BBA off, so I have binned them!

The swords are still in bunches with ceramic weights - I thought I would keep the weights on this time (I tried taking the weights off with previous plants, but I had a lot of trouble with individual stems floating off)

Acting on the assumption that the algae outcompleted my previous plants, I have added additional illumination. My tank only has a fitting for one 18in bulb, a 15w T8 Sun-Glo. So for now I am providing additional illumination with an anglepoise lamp from outside the tank with a 42w halogen bulb (you can see it in the photo). I know that this is not an ideal solution but hopefully it will just give the swords the edge.

I may get a replacement 18in fluorescent tube for my tank, but the improvement in terms of lumens won't be that great - existing bulb is a 840 lumen Sun-Glo (totally misremembered it earlier in this thread) and the brightest alternative of any manufacturer would be a 960 lumen Life-Glo. This doesn't seem to that much of a difference with regard to keeping the plants growing,hence the external spot. It has been suggested to me that ideally I would have two or three 18in strips illuminating this tank! (40 L)

I cannot easily replace the lid of my tank since all the electrics for the lamp, filter and heater are built into it. The lid can however be removed. When one or more of the three gizmos dies, I will remove the lid as a long-term project and replace it with separate lamps, filters etc. But for now this isn't practical, hence the halogen spot.

I did a 13% water change on Friday - the TDS went down from about 3900 to 3400, just as expected (e.g a 13% decrease)

The temperature of the tank is creeping up, now about 27.3'C, presumably because of the extra light.

Nitrates are about 10mg/L - the figure I quoted earlier of 50 was the tap water nitrate not the tank nitrite, my bad. So the tank cycling was still good.
I have left a bit of BBA on the back of the tank as an insurance policy in case the algae has been the main nitrate sink. I will need to monitor carefully how the sword manage.

I am still trying to trace the source of the very high levels of phosphate in my tap water. I made some crude calibration solutions on Friday and from the response of my test strips compared to these I would say my tap water is at least 40mg/L phosphate!

Until I can get to the bottom of this, the swords will have to be my saviours as phosphate sequesters - fingers crossed.

The fish have taken well to this upheaval - the rummies are noticeably brighter in colour. Whether it is the lower TDS, the increased foliage cover, or the increased temperature even, it seems to suit them so far.

It will be really interesting to see if I can stabilise this tank, even with such high tap water phosphate, and whether I can ever add a betta or other fish in future.

As always any advice gratefully received!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks! The little fry are doing well, they're free-swimming and eating their first meal of vinegar eels today. Glad to hear your tank and especially the rummies are doing better, also much less algae now. (Although that is an amazing amount of phosphorous in your tap water. Usually, 5-10ppm is considered high; 40ppm is very strange. Short of contamination by agricultural run off, I'm really not sure where it's coming from.)

Re: Plants, People will recommend cabomba (and similar plants) because these stem plants grow very quickly once they get established. However, when there's a heavy algae infestation, the small, fine leaves (cabomba, myrio, hornwort) are quickly coated in algae and then smothered and killed. Plants with broad leaves, from the smaller ludwigia to the bigger amazon swords, can tolerate more before they're overwhelmed. 

The nitrate and phosphate levels are unlikely stressors for the plants. Rather, the salinity and the algae were probably the two contributing factors in killing the plants. 0.3% salinity is brackish water, which will cause freshwater plants to dehydrate. As mentioned in a previous post, I would strongly suggest reducing your TDS before adding additional plants. (Down to 1000 ppm if not lower.)

Side note: You mentioned bamboo, and I think I see it in the back left in your photo. Bamboo is actually a terrestrial plant. It will tolerate having the stem and roots under water, but the top of the plant needs to be above water. It'll eventually start to rot otherwise. You may want to place it in the air hole on the right, above the water and just let the roots dangle into the tank. Or remove it entirely.

Re: Light, Brighter light is a good idea, your hood/light is probably has a low PAR output. But I would actually cut back on the hours, 7-8 hours maximum. Longer exposure to light actually favors algae growth. You want a short period of bright light, preferably in the blue or cool end of the light spectrum. If you have any CFLs or LEDs that produce a cool white light that will help the plants the most. They're usually marketed as cool white or give a color temperature of 7000K and up. You can usually find them in any store that sells light bulbs. Don't pay a premium for *cough* "specialty" *cough* aquarium lights.

If you have a light that's closer to the right-most bulb, that would be the one to use to supplement your hood.









Good luck tracking down that phosphate source!


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## Ballard (Oct 18, 2015)

*tap water phosphate even higher... no timer for lamps*

Thanks again

Regarding the phosphate, I have noticed that the test strips respond very differently on one side of the strip versus the other. So which is the right reading? It's not documented. Depending on which side I look at, the phosphate is between about 10 and 50mg/L (see photos). So both high!!

Confusingly the camera on my phone gives different colours to those seen by eye. But you get the idea.
Maybe neither reading is accurate??!
Anyway, I will try to find a third kit to cross-reference and I've put in a tech support request for the existing strips.

STOP PRESS: the Precision Labs tech support guy got back to me. The most intense side of the test strip (the side with the "bump") is the correct reading. Moreover, this reads phosphorus - to convert to phosphate he says multiply by three!
‎
O.K, I'm REALLY weirded out now. My tap water could easily be over 100mg/L phosphate. Watch this space. I'm going to ring the utility company again!
‎
Oops, I overlooked your warning about the salinity. My bad again. I will keep doing water changes and try and get the TDS down. I would estimate it's currently at about 3160 or so. Hopefully the swords will hold on for a while.

The bamboo is actually "lucky bamboo", which Wikipedia says is not bamboo at all but Dracaena braunii. It has been happily submerged for two months now but is heavily BBA'd, so not exactly thriving. It has not however totally succumbed and disappeared like the cabomba did. The leaves are large and still intact - just totally covered in BBA.

The BBA is already appearing on one of the swords! The bunch nearest the filter in fact. Just a few blobs - I am tempted to put the phosphate removing resin in now to try and nip it in the bud (or nip it in the blob, more accurately).

It is perhaps informative that it is the one nearest the filter - presumably free algae circulating in the filter's current? Would a filter with a UV step help?
(But this is a longterm project - I really can't spend more money on it right now)

I have invested in a Life-Glo strip bulb. The Amazon reviews by fellow aquaria enthusiasts seem pretty good and it seems to support tank plants. It was the highest lumen strip bulb of any sort I could find, period, and it didn't break the bank. I'll report back on the colour of the spectrum when it arrives.
‎
Timer-wise, again this is disadvantage of the all-in-one lid on the tank. There is no timer for the lamp and no way to add one. ‎
Basically - without giving my daily schedule away to any London-dwelling betta-loving cat burglars - I am now switching it on when I leave and off when I come back, but that is still 11 hours or so. Is this too long? Will this favour BBA over the plants?

Basically I ideally would need some Arcadia LED strips or equivalent, with timers, a new separate heater, and a new separate filter, hopefully which doesn't need proprietary cartridges etc (at least my present filter, a Trio 2000, although obsolete, basically just has rectangular foam, carbon and zeolite compartments all of which can be easily replaced with generic, cut-to-size foams and sacks of cheap carbon granules etc... but it's hard-wired into the lid...)‎
However, that total shopping list must be over £200 or so... so maybe next year! For now I'll have to manage with one Life-Glo and turning the lights on and off for 11 hours.‎

‎
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