# Bettas mysteriously die, noticing white mouths later.



## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

I started a sorority of bettas recently and shortly after they started dieing off. I had been keeping them in other tanks and divided areas before combining the bettas in this larger 16 gallon tank.

I've seen many other threads related to this, but it always turns into a thread about convincing the guy to buy a heater and do water changes and I miss the whole point about the disease?

I do water changes, about 50% weekly. The tank is a couple of months old now. It's planted. I has a 100 watt heater. It's only stocked with 5 false julii corydoras, 1 dwarf orange crayfish (CPO), and has also had 1 juvenile betta in a breeder box. The remains of the sorority of bettas in the tank is 1 cambodian female and 1 veil tail female. They were a few of my most docile bettas and are getting along very well. I would hate to lose them, its not easy to find docile females for a sorority.

I lost 2 fish to the pump impeller. They found a way to the back of the nano tank and it was a freak accident from there. I've since fixed that by covering the intake vents with foam. Never thought they could fit in there. Shortly after that incident I lost another betta. She initially showed signs of being sluggish and just hovering at the top of the tank. She wasn't clamped and looked normal. I did notice a small change in her mouth coloration (lighter) but it was hardly enough to think it looked too different. She died the next day. I now have another betta Ive since moved to another tank who is not moving hardly at all and her mouth is all white.

Do I have a fungus problem in my 16g? I think its what all my clues are pointing too, but I'm still quite new with keeping fish.

There's no point in saving this betta. She's too far gone and if I go by symptoms I've seen in a couple of the other bettas she will be gone in a few hours. It happend so fast and its usually down hill by time I notice the symptoms.

The big thing here is do I need to treat my 16 gallon to prevent problems with the current fish there?


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

Housing 
What size is your tank? *16 gallons*
What temperature is your tank? *8.0*
Does your tank have a filter? *Dual 3-stage (built into tank)*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? *No*
Is your tank heated? *Yes*
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *5 False Julii Corys & 1 CPO Dwarf Orange Crayfish*

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? *Frozen Blood Worms, Frozen Brine Shrimp, Betta Pellets*
How often do you feed your betta fish? *Once a day*

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? *Once a week*
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? *50%*
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Prime*

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: *0*
Nitrite: *0*
Nitrate: *~0*
pH: *8.0*
Hardness: *0 dGH (Don't have a KH test)*
Alkalinity: *Unsure*

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *White mouth*
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *Hovering at top not moving much*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? *After adding to tank*
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *No*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? *No were fine before moving tanks*
How old is your fish (approximately)? *< 8 months*


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

Picture attached.


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

So sorry that you have had fish loss and illness, Do you have access to a ammonia/nitrite test kit? It's very common for a newly set-up tank to have toxic levels of one or the other, and it causes what you have described.


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

Just saw the pic, that fish isn't clamped, almost looks ridged. Pm oldfishlady or sakura they are far more versed in fish sickness than me.


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## Wendyjo (Oct 19, 2012)

I believe you have columnaris. It's also called white mouth disease and cotton mouth disease. It's a bacterial disease that kills very quickly and it can kill off a tank full of fish in a few days. 

Treatment is tough with columnaris, and many time unsuccessful. You'll need to treat the whole tank, although treating the cories may be tricky as scaleless fish are sensitive to meds and you may have to treat them at half strength.

If it was me I would destroy the sick girl and quarantine the other one so that you can treat her at full strength. There are a few different meds you can try - there is a sticky thread in this forum with info and of course there is Google. I would do some research and see what meds you would be able to get locally since the disease spreads so fast. Also research the best way to treat the cories. You could wait and see if it spreads to the cories, but the best bet is to try to treat them now. 

Honestly on other fishkeeping forums I'm on people will often destroy all their fish at the first sign of columnaris, tear down the tank, disinfect it and start over because it's so virulent. But it's worth a try at least to see if you can treat them. I have no idea about the crayfish.

The meds may kill off your beneficial bacteria so you may also have to deal with ammonia and cycling issues.


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## lexylex0526 (Dec 27, 2011)

Your ph is a bit high. But a higher ph won't directly kill your fish but it will lead to stress making them more vulnerable to an infection and parasites. That may be what is happening to your fish, but I'm not quite sure.

To me it looks like mouth fungus,or Columnaris. Which is caused when fish are stressed by water quality, poor diet, and in result they become prone to bacterial infections. Columnaris enters the fish through the its gills, mouth, and even through small skin wounds. The disease can spread rapidly in nets, holding containers, food or any number of other means. It is highly contagious.

To treat a betta for this you can :Change water,Vacuum gravel (bacteria thrive on organic wastes) ADD AQUARIUM SALT(enhances gill function) Treat with copper sulfate,antibiotics and chemicals (Acriflavine, Furan, and Terramycin) Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment.

But I would suggest treating your bettas in a smaller tank because catfish are highly sensitive to salt.

I hope I helped


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

paloverde said:


> So sorry that you have had fish loss and illness, Do you have access to a ammonia/nitrite test kit? It's very common for a newly set-up tank to have toxic levels of one or the other, and it causes what you have described.


I do test for that stuff as well as using an ammonia alert. I gave these readings above.


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

Wendyjo said:


> I believe you have columnaris. It's also called white mouth disease and cotton mouth disease. It's a bacterial disease that kills very quickly and it can kill off a tank full of fish in a few days.
> 
> Treatment is tough with columnaris, and many time unsuccessful. You'll need to treat the whole tank, although treating the cories may be tricky as scaleless fish are sensitive to meds and you may have to treat them at half strength.
> 
> ...


 Oh gosh your right, it's the plague... it is death...so sorry I have seen it wipe out an entire fish room in just days. I would never put that crayfish back into any tank ever again ever. thankyou wendyjo & lexyle for spotting it. I will now include you as one of the go to fish medics.


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## Wendyjo (Oct 19, 2012)

Here is a very comprehensive article about columnaris - prevention, treatments, etc. 

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/columnaris.html

One treatment mentioned in it is Pimafix/Melafix (the article is not specific to bettas) - just note that those meds are not recommended for use with bettas.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

Sounds like there's no hope.

What about the crayfish? "I would never put that crayfish back into any tank ever again ever?" Why are you saying this? This is a passive species of crayfish and a very small one too. Not much bigger than ghost shrimp. You blame the crayfish?


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

No I don't blame the crayfish, He could could spread the plague because he was in the tank. He could always be kept in a species only tank and you would need to be so very careful to not share any equipment. I know it's really sad news.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

So you are saying he carried this and spread it? I didn't see the evidence to your sudden assumption.


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't know how the plague entered your tank? It could have come in on live plants or fish or yes the crayfish, if he had been in a tank that had the plague. It is a vicious disease and is spread by contact via the water or occupants and it moves fast as you well know.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

So there is no treatment other than letting the fish die and disinfecting the entire tank and tossing all plants? Really?


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

I didn't get much help here. While I have surviving fish I am not going to kill them all and take down this tank.

I am going to try Tetracycline. I will not try salt though as the corydoras can't handle that. I've also read better referenced articles that show salt does not help. Tetracycline seems to work though not everyone seems to suggest or talk about it.


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## lexylex0526 (Dec 27, 2011)

Xeek said:


> I didn't get much help here. While I have surviving fish I am not going to kill them all and take down this tank.
> 
> I am going to try Tetracycline. I will not try salt though as the corydoras can't handle that. I've also read better referenced articles that show salt does not help. Tetracycline seems to work though not everyone seems to suggest or talk about it.


 READ MY FIRST RESPONSE!!
Thats how to treat it!


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

I truly hope that your treatment is a success, and if it does cure them please post back how you did it.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

lexylex0526 said:


> READ MY FIRST RESPONSE!!
> Thats how to treat it!


You method was partially a good idea. My fish were acclimated to that pH a long time ago. Bettas have no problem with this pH. That's not the problem. These fish were kept in other tanks with the same specs on water.

Treating with salt is a bad idea with catfish. Treating with copper will most likely kill my crayfish and catfish. Doing all this and adding antibiotics - I'm just making my tank an industrial chemical tank and not a fish tank.

The antibiotics though seem like the wisest choice.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Xeek said:


> Water Parameters:
> Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
> 
> Ammonia: *0*
> ...


This doesn't bother anybody else?

If you are noticing the white stuff AFTER death, it is probably just fungal decomposition. If they are getting it before death, then it is probably columnaris.

I'd be more concerned about your water parameters. Where are you getting your water from? It looks like it's being run through a R/O unit or a water softener. Without replenishing natural ions in the water, it's not good for fish or even people to drink. (Essentially this sounds like distilled water)

With a hardness of 0 dGH, there are little or no natural nutrients in your aquarium for your fish to live on (stuff like iron, magnesium, etc.) that both your fish and you as a human need to live. Your KH is probably low as well, which will give rise to pH swings.

Your pH of 8 is fine as long as it stays like that. I've had fish live in pH of 8.2 at my apartment at school.


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

bahamut285 said:


> This doesn't bother anybody else?
> 
> If you are noticing the white stuff AFTER death, it is probably just fungal decomposition. If they are getting it before death, then it is probably columnaris.
> 
> ...


Good catch! I had assumed from the numbers or lack, that perhaps the water wasn't tested.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

bahamut285 said:


> This doesn't bother anybody else?
> 
> If you are noticing the white stuff AFTER death, it is probably just fungal decomposition. If they are getting it before death, then it is probably columnaris.
> 
> ...


Ive noticed the white before death.
I get my water from tap, the pH starts at around 8 and settles to 7.8~ and I test it like a maniac and it remains.
I have shrimp supplement liquid if you want me to harden my water - I know I have soft water and this isn't killing my fish. Neither is the pH neither is the KH. Lets stay on topic. I try to keep fish that can handle my water rather than try to change my water, because that doesn't always work well or remain predictable - my tap water is predictable.

Anyways I've put some Erythromycin in the tank and following instructions. I may do the same in the other tanks I moved sick fish into as they're probably infected as well.


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## djembekah (Feb 13, 2012)

Xeek also has a male betta in the same type of water as his females, i don't think it's his lack of hardness that is the problem


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

Are you sure those are the numbers? That can't be right. What test brand are you using? Also, the water quality is COMPLETELY relevant, it could be whats causing this. Also, that water isn't soft, that water is BEYOND soft, like that could be a major problem here.


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

wait, did you test for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate before you added the water, or did you test the tank water?


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## paloverde (Nov 9, 2012)

I apologize for sounding like the harbinger of death, and truly had no intentions of insulting you or your fish husbandry.Please keep this forum informed on how things progress. if you find a way to cure them perhaps you can pay it forward and help someone else.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hey xeek. First, although I haven't read the whole thread I did skim so I apologize if I missed anything important. In regards to your water chemistry: it's exactly like mine so I'm guessing you have a water softener. That will result in super soft water but with a pH that is the same as water that does not go through a water softener. My water is 0 GH and pH 7.8 and my bettas all do fine in it. My plants are another story, however. If the 0 GH bothers you, I would suggest adding a pinch of coral OR a Wonder Shell to bump up the GH and aid in electrolyte balance.

That mystery solved, on to the next. I have a feeling you've got an outbreak of columnaris in your tank, as wendyjo suggested. I assume your cories and your crayfish are okay so it's only affecting your bettas?

First, you can treat for columnaris either conservatively with 3 tsps of AQ salt per gallon and lowered heat OR you can treat aggressively with medication starting with API Furan-2. Carry out all treatment in a hospital tank if you can.

Also, just as a side note: double check the adult size of that crayfish. I've heard horror stories about those things growing up and even at only 3", eating everything in the tank.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

CPO crayfish get to 1.5" and Eddie is close to that already. His claws are very small and they dont get any bigger. This is a dwarf mexican orange crayfish. They are one of the most docile. They are also slow and much smaller than other crayfish. I've done all this research in any case this is way off topic and he isn't the one killing my fish.

My water is soft out of the tap and we've known this before I had aquariums. I test my water from water in the tank (why would I test it from anywhere else?).

I looked at Furan and it seems to have poor reviews. I got some other antibiotic which is known to treat this bacteria infection we're theorizing. Im treating the whole tank because the tank is contaminated I don't want it to linger for the other fish.

I started treatment today. In 24 hours I add more, 24 hours after that I have to do a small water change. I believe there needs to be four treatments to complete the process. This should be safe for my corys and inverts which is what I didn't want to use any salt or copper on.

*Thanks Sakura8 and lexylex0526*!

And yes believe it, my water is 0 dGH and 8 PH. That's how the water is out of my tap and other than a small drop in PH over time nothing else changes after more than a week if the water sits. I've tested so much I've gone through a batch of strips and used a quite a lot of my API Master Test kit. I test like crazy - I'm anal.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

0dh isnt that rare. water in queens nyc is 0hardness out of the tap. 
our water is actually perfect for keeping crs 
sometimes I think my fish and shrimps are happier when I dont do water changes....

correct me if I'm wrong but the other med for this is kanaplex, which is usually only obtainable from online...

we've had several users combat columnaris with furan-2 sucessfully before and i believe sakura8 was there in the help thread.

all the best to you and the health of your fish.
And like previously said, please keep us updated in the progress of combating this disease, it will prove to be very valuable to future cases.


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

What about the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate? How are they all 0?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Pogthefish said:


> What about the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate? How are they all 0?


plants... or too many water changes. lol


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## Friendlyfishies (Aug 16, 2012)

The good news is...it is possible to save a couple, rare but possible. Out of 8 guppies that had columnaris straight from the petstore using melafix, pemafix and heavy AQ salt 2 pulled thru. I knowvyou shouldn't use the fix's but it may work for the corys. Goodluck!


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

> I am going to try Tetracycline. I will not try salt though as the corydoras can't handle that. I've also read better referenced articles that show salt does not help. Tetracycline seems to work though not everyone seems to suggest or talk about it.


I have had fought more battles with columnaris then I care to admit and Tetracycline has NEVER worked. I am not sure if its because it does not fight gram negative bacteria, which is what columnaris is OR because it does not work with PH's that are over 7.4. The same is true with Maracyn AKA Erythromycin. If you want a change in hell of winning aganist columnaris - you need something like Furan 2. I have also heard that triple sulfa, Kanaplex and a combo of maracyn and maracyn 2 may work. If you PH is an 8.0 - I would not use the maracyn combo because it is not as effective in high PH water. I had to OD to get it to work. 

NOTE: I am not sure if these meds are safe for catfish.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Xeek said:


> I looked at Furan and it seems to have poor reviews. I got some other antibiotic which is known to treat this bacteria infection we're theorizing. Im treating the whole tank because the tank is contaminated I don't want it to linger for the other fish.


If you were reading customer reviews on a website like Petsmart or Petco, then that is a bad idea. Any customer who posts a negative review could have easily had a bad experience with the medicine because they misused it or used the wrong type of medication to treat a certain condition. For example, if I used Rid Ich to try and treat popeye and it didn't work, so I posted a negative review. Also, do not believe what the boxes of medication tell you. Maracyn I and II tell you it can treat dropsy conditions but in reality, both meds not only can make it worse but have a whole host of side effects that can turn a bad situation worse.

The medication in Furan-2, nitrafurazone, is especially effective against columnaris bacteria. This is why I recommended it. 

Erythromycin is, unfortunately, one of those meds that has been overused and misused in the past and thus, many bacteria strains have developed a resistance to it. Furthermore, it is a gram positive medication and columnaris is gram negative; the majority of bacteria encountered in the aquarium are gram negative. In other words, erythromycin will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING if your fish are affected by columnaris. It might work if your fish were affected with Neon Tetra Disease, Black Molly Disease or perhaps popeye but they aren't. 

Also, if your tank was cycled, you can kiss your beneficial bacteria goodbye. Erythromycin is one of those meds that is extremely harsh on BB. I would suggest using a bacteria booster in your tank after you have finished treating with this. Seachem Stability is a good choice for this but avoid bacteria boosters by Tetra. I've heard that the bacteria they use is not even the right kind of bacteria. Use carbon to get the rest of the meds out of the water when you are finished.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> If you were reading customer reviews on a website like Petsmart or Petco, then that is a bad idea. Any customer who posts a negative review could have easily had a bad experience with the medicine because they misused it or used the wrong type of medication to treat a certain condition. For example, if I used Rid Ich to try and treat popeye and it didn't work, so I posted a negative review. Also, do not believe what the boxes of medication tell you. Maracyn I and II tell you it can treat dropsy conditions but in reality, both meds not only can make it worse but have a whole host of side effects that can turn a bad situation worse.
> 
> The medication in Furan-2, nitrafurazone, is especially effective against columnaris bacteria. This is why I recommended it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I'll complete this antibiotic treatment and if the fish show anymore signs of ill health Ill remember your recommendation.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

aokashi said:


> plants... or too many water changes. lol


The tank is well planted. I've been doing 50% water changes every other week, except this week will be 2 or 3 25% water changes per antibiotic treatment's instructions.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Xeek said:


> The tank is well planted. I've been doing 50% water changes every other week, except this week will be 2 or 3 25% water changes per antibiotic treatment's instructions.


That's usually the situation for planted tanks. I never got anything more than a zero other than on the PH, so I sold my test kits.
Now I prefer to buffer the water and not do water changes for extended periods of time. the livestock seems to prefer it that way too.

You may find that even 50% is too extreme for a planted filtered tank. when I do larger water changes, I run a line in and a line out simultaneously, like a simultaneous acclimation/water change.

you may not need the 50% change at all, I find that some plants really don't like large water changes. Just part of my personal experience.


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

aokashi said:


> That's usually the situation for planted tanks. I never got anything more than a zero other than on the PH, so I sold my test kits.
> Now I prefer to buffer the water and not do water changes for extended periods of time. the livestock seems to prefer it that way too.
> 
> You may find that even 50% is too extreme for a planted filtered tank. when I do larger water changes, I run a line in and a line out simultaneously, like a simultaneous acclimation/water change.
> ...


I've sometimes wondered when all my readings are 0 why am I even doing a water change? In my 5g it's to keep the water less brown (from drift wood), but the drift wood in my 16g takes a lot longer to make the water brown enough to show.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

well water changes should be done to cut down on dissolved organic solids, which are not detectable with the tests. Personally I dont know, I do a water change just about every 3 months and a top off every week.

how's the fish?


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## Xeek (Sep 28, 2012)

Fish are doing great. Sometimes the corys scare me and play dead with a tilt to their drifting. Apparently this is normal for them when they rest during the daytime. I was afraid until the evening they all started getting really active again and now I know its ok.

The bettas are ok, but J'Lo started attacking Nip (bettas). I had to move the aggressor to another tank. I decided to give this sorority a 2nd chance and have 2 more new bettas in another divided tank. They are doing excellent as well and are adjusting to their new home as well as that important part - seeing me as food giver (which hasn't happend quite yet).


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

sound promising 
some cories release a poison when they believe they are being predated on ( chasing with a net etc..)

gl with the new sorority


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