# Advice For New Breeders



## MrVampire181

Hopefully this will be stickied:

Since I can't sleep (it's 2:30 AM right now...) I decided to browse some interviews from top breeders. These people are the real deal and have some great things to say about starting to breed these wonderful fish.

Atison:

"Select your breeding stock from reputable breeders. Don't pay too much money on breeding stock. Good finnages Halfmoon genotype is as good as a perfect halfmoon with perfect finnages. They will produce almost the same amount of halfmoon offsprings if you feed them with good food , good condition of water in community tank. The main factor is to try to keep your offspring survive to adult size as much as possible. You may encounter problem and success at the same time, but your experiences will help your fowllowing betta hobbyists beginners."

Phil Lafferty:

"My advice for new betta breeders is to become thoroughly aware of their water conditions first. Then breed several pairs for a six month period to become acquainted with the spawning and fry raising procedures. Then get some high quality betta pairs that are brother and sister from reputable breeders that can give you a three year background of the genetic history to assist you in your objective."

Jim Sonnier:

"Please understand the commitment you are making & make sure you can follow through. Betta breeding is one of the most labor intensive hobbies that I know of. If you cannot devote many hours each week to caring for your fish you will surely fail to produce top quality Bettas. Also specialize in only 2 colors (or types) with only very occasional extracurricular spawnings." 

Sieg Illig:

"Start with one color and establish 2 or 3 lines. You have more fish to pick from for show and for your breeding.
When you can handle it may go to two colors. To work with many colors burns you out. I know it is hard to resist all the colors out there. I started with two color greens and steels. I outcrossed and got blues and had 3 colors to show."

Guy Delaval (we owe halfmoons to this man...):

"Try to obtain Halfmoons right away."

Jeff Wilson:

"Get the best fish you can and talk to other breeders. Keep an open mind but stick to your objectives. Culling separates good breeders from also rans. It is my favorite activity in the fish room. It keeps me focused on what I want to accomplish and allows me to spend more time with promising fish. I don't look for good fish, I look for what I dont want. When I cant find a bad fish I quit and come back in a few days and do it again. When this process is finished I sometimes jar. Few fish ever make it to a jar."


Faith Granger:

Now before I quote her I would like to say that Faith is my corner stone in this hobby. Everyday I search her site for anything I have yet to learn. Not only did her amazing fish fascinate me but they inspired me to start spawning bettas. Now I wish I had started off right and actually bought some nice fish and did things correctly... But now she continues to be an amazing inspiration to me. 

"Read my website www.bettatalk.com!!!! Focus, focus, focus. Breed only quality fish and stay away from pet store bettas. Oh and did I mention: READ MY WEBSITE !! (and memorize it) LOL." 

Victoria Parnell:

Again my second inspiration and foundation to bettas. Throughout middle school I got in trouble for reading my dozens of print outs of her wonderful website. I now own her book and it is amazing to read over every few days to keep my knowledge fresh. 

"Don't be discouraged by failure. In the beginning, most of us get more failures than successes, but everything is a learning experience. Don't put too much stake into what you read from other breeders, because everyone's circumstances are different. Once you have the basics down, you should experiment a bit and find what works best for your program and your local water source. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to breed bettas. If they are spawning - good job! I also firmly believe that there is no "right" or "wrong" color cross. If you want to breed a red fish to a blue one, don't let anyone tell you you can't. Keep accurate records of spawns, and reference them often. This will make it easier to learn from your experiments as you go. Most of all, this is a hobby. It's supposed to be fun! If it stops being fun for you, put it aside for awhile."

Tim Ardnt:

"I have much advice for novices. Please allow me to unload:

I feel there should be thousands of people in every country of the world breeding and showing these fish... but where are they? Many start, but only a handful ever show their fish. Betta keeping should be FUN!

I believe that there are two things that keep novices from having fun... 1. lack of success at spawning these fish and... 2. diseases.

1. LIGHT is the number one reason for poor spawning attempts... pure and simple bettas need only 12 hours of light a day... period... photoperiod control is everything. After working all day novices want to enjoy their fish in the evening and they then keep their fish up way too late. Darkening the room completely and using a number of lights on timers to sequentially brighten the room would be the solution... 12 hours of light max. and shizzam your fish will spawn!

The dark 12 hours, however, must be completely dark. Even a street light shining through a window can throw them off.

2. DISEASES: It is so sad that even established, show breeders are unethically selling diseased fish to novices. There is nothing more discouraging than picking out dead fry and breeders all of the time. Of course, tuberculosis or mycobacterium is THE worst. It hides so well in drip and flow-through systems. The flowing or dripping systems are the CURSE of the betta hobby. It is difficult to figure out why everyone wants a drip system. It is like it is some rite-of-passage or something. These systems are so complicated and prone to failure, but most of all they all harbour diseases. 

What every novice needs is a set-up in which the water from one fish container goes down the drain and never gets used again in any other jar. ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT OF ANY SORT BETWEEN FISH except at spawning time. Please click here for details on building a simple set-up.

What people don't know about these systems is the abject failure of ultra-violet sterilizers to purify the re-use water of pathogens. At best, these devices are only 95% effective. That means 5% of bacteria and even higher rates of parasites are getting through. They re-colonize in the pipes very quickly downstream from the light bulbs. I know because I have cultured the bacteria 1 foot distance along in those pipes many times and counted the colonies to estimate abundance... and it is no different that the levels in the water going into the sterilizer.

The sad part about mycobacterium is that even humans can catch it! I bet there are lots of betta keepers who have had this painful disease and never even known that they caught it from the fish that someone else sent them!

Anyways, I feel quite strongly about this as you might have gathered and I spend quite a bit of time on it in the disease section of my website, please click here.

The second thing in this regard is a strict protocol of tank, jar and net sanitation between generations. This is also covered in the Fish Health page of my website.

Also, I feel novices should join Betta Associations and try to show their fish as soon as possible. The International Betta Congress(IBC) is an example of a top-notch organization and they do an excellent job of making peoples' first attempt at showing their fish very easy.

The final bit of advice I would give to novices is to spend some time convincing their local pet store to look after their bettas more responsibly and help them to show them off in the way that brings out the best in them. If everyone did this then I believe many more people would appreciate these amazing fish for what they are.

I have finally had some success in convincing one top-notch tropical fish store in Montreal named Aquarius to allow me to assist them in setting up such a display and they are selling halfmoons. The method of displaying bettas that we are using there is explained on my website, please click here."

Marianne Lewis:

"Read read and read some more, there is a lot of information posted on the internet, second get to a show as soon as you possibly can."


AND my advice (please keep in mind I am no betta god, I am simply a teenager who enjoys breeding these fish and I have learned a lot):

Save yourself the regret of a failed spawn and start right. Spend the cash and get a good set up going. Read and read and read. Talk to a local breeder, and obtain only the best bettas you can get. Don't complain. Just stay focused and work hard towards your goal. Set small goals at first and then work your way up. Start with one spawn at a time and then work towards adding strains here and there as your expertise builds up.


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## vilmarisv

Good late night reading, Mr. V. 
Setting goals and getting to know your fish is so important. 
It pains me to see so many fish in the Halfmoon section of AB that are not really HMs. If you don't know what a HM is, then you will be ripped off because you trusted that breeder in telling you what you were buying.


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## MrVampire181

vilmarisv said:


> Good late night reading, Mr. V.
> Setting goals and getting to know your fish is so important.
> It pains me to see so many fish in the Halfmoon section of AB that are not really HMs. If you don't know what a HM is, then you will be ripped off because you trusted that breeder in telling you what you were buying.


:-D Thanks!

AB is a big scam unless you know what to look for. Thai breeders are the worst and fish are rarely worth $60 a piece (add import fees to that...). 

I recommend contacting a breeder and getting a nice pair of starter fish (especially like multis from Karen, not only great show worthy fish but great foundations). 

Also many people think that all bettas on AB are top quality. No no no. Very few are actually breeding worthy. Most of us on the forum here can sell some nicer fish for far less. 

I'm lucky I live in a betta loving state. I know of five breeders and we all pick up nice imports from Linda Olson (another great inspiration to me and a wealth of knowledge). When I started I wish I had been taught by Linda but now I just get a good amount of tips on raising these fish.


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## tpocicat

Thank you MrV! You've given me some new places to go to and read. The more information I can get, the better.


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## indjo

MrVampire181 said:


> Also many people think that all bettas on AB are top quality. No no no. Very few are actually breeding worthy. Most of us on the forum here can sell some nicer fish for far less.


+1
IMO many AB bettas are rejects. The only advantage is that they were bred by (many of them) big and responsible breeders. You can ask their genetic background and everything.

It doesn't matter where you get your bettas as long as you know what to look for. SO always look up the IBC form standard before shopping...... if form is important to you.


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## ravenwinds

Thank you Mr. V...you have led me to some excellent information. I appreciate all the advice you and indjo have put up in this forum...and of course, everyone else on this forum who contributes so much time and effort to point newbies like me in the right direction!


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## aikio

THANK...good tip...:-D


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## EvilVOG

> "Get the best fish you can and talk to other breeders. Keep an open mind but stick to your objectives. Culling separates good breeders from also rans. It is my favorite activity in the fish room. It keeps me focused on what I want to accomplish and allows me to spend more time with promising fish. I don't look for good fish, I look for what I dont want. When I cant find a bad fish I quit and come back in a few days and do it again. When this process is finished I sometimes jar. Few fish ever make it to a jar."


Anyone else find that a little disturbing? you spawn a hundred fish and then cull 90% because they're not perfect? :shock: Would you do this to dogs? Horses? His favorite thing to do is to pick some out to cull?


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## jeffegg2

EvilVOG said:


> Anyone else find that a little disturbing? you spawn a hundred fish and then cull 90% because they're not perfect? :shock: Would you do this to dogs? Horses? His favorite thing to do is to pick some out to cull?


Perhaps you could find homes for them? 

An unfortunate part of the breeding process.....


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## MrVampire181

Jeff Wilson culls hard to produce better fish. I dont cull unworthy fish, I just dont breed them. Also keep in mind hes been around for awhile so he has the old school method of doing things.


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## EvilVOG

jeffegg2 said:


> Perhaps you could find homes for them?
> 
> An unfortunate part of the breeding process.....


I understand some fish need to be culled, but he's talking about culling most of his spawn, probably multiple spawns, several times a year. Fish who's only defect is that this one is a little too red, this one's tail isn't at the perfect angle, this one has some iridescence, ect. 

If you were to do that with any other animal in the pet trade you would be imprisoned for animal cruelty.

What do we tell new people asking about breeding in here? Don't do it unless you're prepared to care for/ find homes for 100+ fish.


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## jeffegg2

EvilVOG said:


> I understand some fish need to be culled, but he's talking about culling most of his spawn, probably multiple spawns, several times a year. Fish who's only defect is that this one is a little too red, this one's tail isn't at the perfect angle, this one has some iridescence, ect.
> 
> If you were to do that with any other animal in the pet trade you would be imprisoned for animal cruelty.
> 
> What do we tell new people asking about breeding in here? Don't do it unless you're prepared to care for/ find homes for 100+ fish.


Well, the best way to find homes for breeding bettas is to not breed ordinary pet shop type bettas... Breed the top of the line and you will be assured to find homes for the majority of your fish!!!


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## aikio

Nothing Happen after 5 day breed... what wrong????... just black dot.... tq


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## MrVampire181

Please make a new thread for your questions.


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## Twilight Storm

EvilVOG said:


> I understand some fish need to be culled, but he's talking about culling most of his spawn, probably multiple spawns, several times a year. Fish who's only defect is that this one is a little too red, this one's tail isn't at the perfect angle, this one has some iridescence, ect.
> 
> If you were to do that with any other animal in the pet trade you would be imprisoned for animal cruelty.
> 
> What do we tell new people asking about breeding in here? Don't do it unless you're prepared to care for/ find homes for 100+ fish.



I noticed that culling really isn't discussed here as much as other forums. Some breeders out there breeding bettas won't sell or give away fish that aren't worthy of being bred and shown. Their way of contributing to higher quality fish overall. 

Ideally you are right though, I agree when you go into breeding you should be prepared to care/ find homes for up to 100 fish. The way people cull their fish varies by person and country...

Culling in the quote you find disturbing might not really mean killing either. Though I don't know offhand. Maybe more background on the breeder would explain better.

Regardless of how someone culls fry in spawns, It is still going to be a touchy subject. Many breeders have large fish and feed the fry to them. I personally find this the least disturbing way of culling. You are responsible for providing food to the large fish. You could go get feeder goldfish, which may or may not be healthy, or feed fish you know are healthy that you raised. It isn't fun feeding live animals to animals but at least you know their life is being given to another so they can live. 

I've erased the next paragraph so many times,........ but rats mice, cows chickens, deer, goats, quail etc are often "culled" this way for us to eat, and our pets.... It's why some people go vegan. Even feeding your betta pellets or flakes kills a life so he/she can live......

I don't want this to turn into a fight  If this turns heated I sure hope a nice mod erases this. I'm not challenging anyone's views..

Good compilation of articles though Mr. V. 

VOG- Don't think I forgot about you saving that tailless little female from Meijer either. I'm still in love with that little fish! Still think it was really good of you to bring her up in the forum so MollyJean got her.  Seriously NOT fighting with you over this, just was bringing up some views on the taboo subject.


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## Sceven

I don't plan on breeding for a couple of years, but it is definitely something I want to get into later on, for now I will read what I can. But I really want to know, how many fry can I expect to make it to adulthood?


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## jeffegg2

Sceven said:


> I don't plan on breeding for a couple of years, but it is definitely something I want to get into later on, for now I will read what I can. But I really want to know, how many fry can I expect to make it to adulthood?


With proper care, all of them.

Jeff.


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## indjo

@Sceven: Bettas can lay between 700 - 1300 eggs. Many breeders average (in my area) only about 300 to adult. I've read people here can produce up to 200+ while first timers average around 20-50. So the numbers vary depending on how good you care for them .... and luck. lol


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## mellyjelly321

I wonder... when they cull over in Thailand, do they just drop them into the river to join the wild population? I would be interested to know what there culling process is over there. Especially since they are the original betta breeders, have been doing it for several generations, and spawn SO many frye! I'm genuinely curious how they handle this over there and from breeder to breeder.

Anyone know?


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## indjo

As far as I know they would sell what ever they can. They cull overstock quality (specially females) or pass it on to their friends/group. Culling is often done by turning them into feeders.


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## Rachelk98

MrVampire181 said:


> Hopefully this will be stickied:
> 
> Since I can't sleep (it's 2:30 AM right now...) I decided to browse some interviews from top breeders. These people are the real deal and have some great things to say about starting to breed these wonderful fish.
> 
> Atison:
> 
> "Select your breeding stock from reputable breeders. Don't pay too much money on breeding stock. Good finnages Halfmoon genotype is as good as a perfect halfmoon with perfect finnages. They will produce almost the same amount of halfmoon offsprings if you feed them with good food , good condition of water in community tank. The main factor is to try to keep your offspring survive to adult size as much as possible. You may encounter problem and success at the same time, but your experiences will help your fowllowing betta hobbyists beginners."
> 
> Phil Lafferty:
> 
> "My advice for new betta breeders is to become thoroughly aware of their water conditions first. Then breed several pairs for a six month period to become acquainted with the spawning and fry raising procedures. Then get some high quality betta pairs that are brother and sister from reputable breeders that can give you a three year background of the genetic history to assist you in your objective."
> 
> Jim Sonnier:
> 
> "Please understand the commitment you are making & make sure you can follow through. Betta breeding is one of the most labor intensive hobbies that I know of. If you cannot devote many hours each week to caring for your fish you will surely fail to produce top quality Bettas. Also specialize in only 2 colors (or types) with only very occasional extracurricular spawnings."
> 
> Sieg Illig:
> 
> "Start with one color and establish 2 or 3 lines. You have more fish to pick from for show and for your breeding.
> When you can handle it may go to two colors. To work with many colors burns you out. I know it is hard to resist all the colors out there. I started with two color greens and steels. I outcrossed and got blues and had 3 colors to show."
> 
> Guy Delaval (we owe halfmoons to this man...):
> 
> "Try to obtain Halfmoons right away."
> 
> Jeff Wilson:
> 
> "Get the best fish you can and talk to other breeders. Keep an open mind but stick to your objectives. Culling separates good breeders from also rans. It is my favorite activity in the fish room. It keeps me focused on what I want to accomplish and allows me to spend more time with promising fish. I don't look for good fish, I look for what I dont want. When I cant find a bad fish I quit and come back in a few days and do it again. When this process is finished I sometimes jar. Few fish ever make it to a jar."
> 
> 
> Faith Granger:
> 
> Now before I quote her I would like to say that Faith is my corner stone in this hobby. Everyday I search her site for anything I have yet to learn. Not only did her amazing fish fascinate me but they inspired me to start spawning bettas. Now I wish I had started off right and actually bought some nice fish and did things correctly... But now she continues to be an amazing inspiration to me.
> 
> "Read my website www.bettatalk.com!!!! Focus, focus, focus. Breed only quality fish and stay away from pet store bettas. Oh and did I mention: READ MY WEBSITE !! (and memorize it) LOL."
> 
> Victoria Parnell:
> 
> Again my second inspiration and foundation to bettas. Throughout middle school I got in trouble for reading my dozens of print outs of her wonderful website. I now own her book and it is amazing to read over every few days to keep my knowledge fresh.
> 
> "Don't be discouraged by failure. In the beginning, most of us get more failures than successes, but everything is a learning experience. Don't put too much stake into what you read from other breeders, because everyone's circumstances are different. Once you have the basics down, you should experiment a bit and find what works best for your program and your local water source. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to breed bettas. If they are spawning - good job! I also firmly believe that there is no "right" or "wrong" color cross. If you want to breed a red fish to a blue one, don't let anyone tell you you can't. Keep accurate records of spawns, and reference them often. This will make it easier to learn from your experiments as you go. Most of all, this is a hobby. It's supposed to be fun! If it stops being fun for you, put it aside for awhile."
> 
> Tim Ardnt:
> 
> "I have much advice for novices. Please allow me to unload:
> 
> I feel there should be thousands of people in every country of the world breeding and showing these fish... but where are they? Many start, but only a handful ever show their fish. Betta keeping should be FUN!
> 
> I believe that there are two things that keep novices from having fun... 1. lack of success at spawning these fish and... 2. diseases.
> 
> 1. LIGHT is the number one reason for poor spawning attempts... pure and simple bettas need only 12 hours of light a day... period... photoperiod control is everything. After working all day novices want to enjoy their fish in the evening and they then keep their fish up way too late. Darkening the room completely and using a number of lights on timers to sequentially brighten the room would be the solution... 12 hours of light max. and shizzam your fish will spawn!
> 
> The dark 12 hours, however, must be completely dark. Even a street light shining through a window can throw them off.
> 
> 2. DISEASES: It is so sad that even established, show breeders are unethically selling diseased fish to novices. There is nothing more discouraging than picking out dead fry and breeders all of the time. Of course, tuberculosis or mycobacterium is THE worst. It hides so well in drip and flow-through systems. The flowing or dripping systems are the CURSE of the betta hobby. It is difficult to figure out why everyone wants a drip system. It is like it is some rite-of-passage or something. These systems are so complicated and prone to failure, but most of all they all harbour diseases.
> 
> What every novice needs is a set-up in which the water from one fish container goes down the drain and never gets used again in any other jar. ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT OF ANY SORT BETWEEN FISH except at spawning time. Please click here for details on building a simple set-up.
> 
> What people don't know about these systems is the abject failure of ultra-violet sterilizers to purify the re-use water of pathogens. At best, these devices are only 95% effective. That means 5% of bacteria and even higher rates of parasites are getting through. They re-colonize in the pipes very quickly downstream from the light bulbs. I know because I have cultured the bacteria 1 foot distance along in those pipes many times and counted the colonies to estimate abundance... and it is no different that the levels in the water going into the sterilizer.
> 
> The sad part about mycobacterium is that even humans can catch it! I bet there are lots of betta keepers who have had this painful disease and never even known that they caught it from the fish that someone else sent them!
> 
> Anyways, I feel quite strongly about this as you might have gathered and I spend quite a bit of time on it in the disease section of my website, please click here.
> 
> The second thing in this regard is a strict protocol of tank, jar and net sanitation between generations. This is also covered in the Fish Health page of my website.
> 
> Also, I feel novices should join Betta Associations and try to show their fish as soon as possible. The International Betta Congress(IBC) is an example of a top-notch organization and they do an excellent job of making peoples' first attempt at showing their fish very easy.
> 
> The final bit of advice I would give to novices is to spend some time convincing their local pet store to look after their bettas more responsibly and help them to show them off in the way that brings out the best in them. If everyone did this then I believe many more people would appreciate these amazing fish for what they are.
> 
> I have finally had some success in convincing one top-notch tropical fish store in Montreal named Aquarius to allow me to assist them in setting up such a display and they are selling halfmoons. The method of displaying bettas that we are using there is explained on my website, please click here."
> 
> Marianne Lewis:
> 
> "Read read and read some more, there is a lot of information posted on the internet, second get to a show as soon as you possibly can."
> 
> 
> AND my advice (please keep in mind I am no betta god, I am simply a teenager who enjoys breeding these fish and I have learned a lot):
> 
> Save yourself the regret of a failed spawn and start right. Spend the cash and get a good set up going. Read and read and read. Talk to a local breeder, and obtain only the best bettas you can get. Don't complain. Just stay focused and work hard towards your goal. Set small goals at first and then work your way up. Start with one spawn at a time and then work towards adding strains here and there as your expertise builds up.


when my friend tried to breed her fishes she forgot to take one of the remaining boy out and he tried to kill his dad and mate with his mom


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## Thomasdog

Just one question: what is the prime age for a FEMALE to breed. I am pretty sure that a male is from 6-12, but what is a female?


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## Rachelk98

uh i thinks 8-10. that is how old my friends female fish was when she mated them


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## vilmarisv

Thomasdog said:


> Just one question: what is the prime age for a FEMALE to breed. I am pretty sure that a male is from 6-12, but what is a female?


From 4 months and up and as long as she's producing eggs.


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## MattsBettas

*bump* Great thread,although it made me sick to think that tons of near, but not quite perfect fish were being culled. Before you bring any life into this world, you must know and accept the responsibility of caring for them.


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## Myates

I think if this needs to be discussed more, can make a new thread so people can discuss it properly. 


And on a side note... sometimes having lights out on the fish can cause a lot of trouble.. especially if you have a female that will go nuts if the light it off or it's too dark. Nightlights are great  Or angling the light away helps too.


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## MattsBettas

I agree.


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## Basement Bettas

mellyjelly321 said:


> I wonder... when they cull over in Thailand, do they just drop them into the river to join the wild population? I would be interested to know what there culling process is over there. Especially since they are the original betta breeders, have been doing it for several generations, and spawn SO many frye! I'm genuinely curious how they handle this over there and from breeder to breeder.
> 
> Anyone know?


what do you think you are buying in your local pet shop?


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## Basement Bettas

Thomasdog said:


> Just one question: what is the prime age for a FEMALE to breed. I am pretty sure that a male is from 6-12, but what is a female?


I have them ready to breed at 8 weeks. Like to get it done by 3 months.. 4 tops. Not as many torn fins and just more in the mood. Teenage hormones :lol:


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## MrVampire181

Mr.V on a new account. Totally forgot half this stuff XD


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## ChickADee85

Thanks for the info


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## resa

Can someone give me linda olson web page.... and another professional breeder web page please.....thanks


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## DoctorWhoLuver

I'm not sure if Linda breeds and I don't think she has a web page. But here's her email. [email protected]


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## resa

DoctorWhoLuver said:


> I'm not sure if Linda breeds and I don't think she has a web page. But here's her email. [email protected]


thank you


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