# Are bettas capable of affection/trust?



## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

We were recently schooled that betta fish do not build bubble nests because they are happy, it is simply instinct.

Now we have a thread about bettas that "cuddle" or "love" or show "trust". I say they are just going on instinct once again. Either going after food, showing aggression or they are showing they are ready to breed.

What do you think?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

They bond with you because you feed them.


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

It is hard to be certain, really. I know that a lot of animals have been relegated to the "instinct only" category, only to have science later find out that they are capable of at least basal emotions. We tend to think of higher order animals like birds and mammals as being the only ones capable of emotion, but evidence of it has been found in a wide range of animals. Animals that are very different than we are can be especially hard to figure out.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

http://io9.com/5937356/prominent-sc...animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

BettaQi said:


> http://io9.com/5937356/prominent-sc...animals-have-conscious-awareness-just-like-us


That's all Greek to me, I'm no scientist :lol:


I think anything alive & possessing a brain is aware of its surroundings. "Aware" doesn't translate to "oh I love you and trust you" IMO


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

No, I agree that aware does not translate to emotions. The article linked state that they are conscious in the same way that humans are. However, there is a growing body of evidence for true emotion in animals that were once considered to have no emotion. As far as I can tell, insects do not have emotion, but as far as science could tell years ago, neither did cats and dogs.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

So there's a possibility that bettas DO make bubble nests because they are happy? :-D


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

That particular action is probably instinct, but my point is that true emotion in bettas cannot be ruled out. It seems every time scientists says "Nope, no emotion in that species!", we find out we were morons. 

I now need to go hide in case my advisor somehow manages to see this post.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

harleraven said:


> No, I agree that aware does not translate to emotions. The article linked state that they are conscious in the same way that humans are. However, there is a growing body of evidence for true emotion in animals that were once considered to have no emotion. As far as I can tell, insects do not have emotion, but as far as science could tell years ago, neither did cats and dogs.


I disagree, my praying mantis certainly had emotion and showed affection by actually grooming me. They don't even do that to each other but she would sit and groom my fingers until she was satisfied and she also got excited to see me after school every day and would climb to the top of her cage so I would take her out. I certainly felt she had affection for me and enjoyed my company. Basically Scyther was a dog. My mice and rats have also shown affection and emotion. They get depressed when I am gone for a while. It went so far as my rats and mice didn't eat when I was in New York for a week. When I got home my rats actually jumped from their cage and snuggled against my neck. I think if they can feel emotions so can fish and insects. All animals feel fear this is proven. It's a survival mechanism. If you were not afraid then you would be dead and eaten so ALL things feel fear which is an emotion, fish, insects, mammals birds. We also know they feel aggression and anger, we see betta's display this. These are emotions in their own right so who is to say they can not trust and love as well? All things domesticated by man learn to live with us and even to a point understand us.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

Jury's out on betta fish, apparently. That article mentions a list of animals but I couldn't find a list in any of the links.:-?


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

_I have noticed that with constant conversation, and spending time watching your betta, and letting him get to know you, they adapt to hearing your voice, and seeing your face, example, I spend a lot of time with my fish..and talk to them a lot, I am not associating food with the attention that they get, and when my daughter tries to talk to them they tend to swim away..because they are not used to her voice I tell her to interact with them more, talk to them, and they will get used to hearing your voice more, and will want to see you, they think she is just a stranger and I feel IMO that the more time you spend with your fish, I just think there is more to it, than just food instinct.. I think they sense human interaction and it makes them happier, and I beleive could make them live longer..IMO_


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

LadyVictorian said:


> I disagree, my praying mantis certainly had emotion and showed affection by actually grooming me. They don't even do that to each other but she would sit and groom my fingers until she was satisfied and she also got excited to see me after school every day and would climb to the top of her cage so I would take her out. I certainly felt she had affection for me and enjoyed my company. Basically Scyther was a dog. My mice and rats have also shown affection and emotion. They get depressed when I am gone for a while. It went so far as my rats and mice didn't eat when I was in New York for a week. When I got home my rats actually jumped from their cage and snuggled against my neck. I think if they can feel emotions so can fish and insects. All animals feel fear this is proven. It's a survival mechanism. If you were not afraid then you would be dead and eaten so ALL things feel fear which is an emotion, fish, insects, mammals birds. We also know they feel aggression and anger, we see betta's display this. These are emotions in their own right so who is to say they can not trust and love as well? All things domesticated by man learn to live with us and even to a point understand us.


emotion or instinct? Does a day old baby feel love or does in instinctively know its mother, her smell and know where to suck? any pediatricians out there? :lol:


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> I disagree, my praying mantis certainly had emotion and showed affection by actually grooming me.


I think you missed my point. My point is that _as far as I can tell_ they do not have emotions, but science had the same _"as far as they could tell"_ idea for dogs and cats. Now we know they can experience some level of emotion. My point is that we cannot say for certain that _anything_ feels no level of emotion at all.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I agree with that lelei, this isn't a fish but my mouse Ophelia had horrible allergies and burned lungs from when she was in the feeder tank from hell. The ammonia from the uncleaned cage damaged them so bad even on medication the vets said she would only live a year. Ophelia was a very sick girl and every six months or so we had a scare that she was going to pass away. Every time she got sick I thought "Today is the day she won't recover." I held her with tear stained face and told her I loved her. She and I had a very strong bond and we were very close. She even gave me kisses. It seemed just as I thought it was goodbye she would recover and be back to her old self. This happened for three years. She lived for three long years with her bad health not only because I provided her medication and care but because we were so close and we loved each other so much. Ophelia was my guardian and I was hers. She ended up getting cancer and the vets said she had about a week left but even with her cancer Ophelia pushed on for a full month. She didn't pass away until the week after I told her it was okay for her to go now. Her tumor was getting big and I didn't want her to suffer. I made plans to have her put down and the night before our appointment she passed in her sleep. I agree that strong bonds with animals tend to make them live longer and in fact make them happy. Just like it's proven people with pets live longer, we honestly are keeping each other alive in a way.

Edit:
Also I think Regi that you are separating emotions and instinct when they actually work together. People forget love is nothing more than a chemical reaction, a means to reproduce. Fear is a means of survival, to avoid and run or fight those we fear because without fear we would have died, been eaten, wiped out. Anger and rage are means of defending our territory, what we think is ours, etc. joy is endorphin released from our brains. Emotion is not something from a heart or a brain it's mostly chemical. We tend to Romanticize emotion I think.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

harleraven said:


> we cannot say for certain that _anything_ feels no level of emotion at all.


really? I've seen a few human scum in my life who didn't seem to register much.:-?


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

I feel they bond with you because do not bite the hand that feeds you they also seem to reflect you as a member of the group.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

ladyvictorian said:


> just like it's proven people with pets live longer, we honestly are keeping each other alive in a way.


like


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

registereduser said:


> really? I've seen a few human scum in my life who didn't seem to register much.:-?


Technical terms Sociopath, Psychopath, mentally challenged, big business, government, and bowl keepers/people who say they are just _____.


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

registereduser said:


> really? I've seen a few human scum in my life who didn't seem to register much.:-?


Haha! I agree. However, of course I am speaking on the species-wide level. Certain individuals may have more or less capacity for emotion than others due to environmental, neonatal, or genetic differences.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

And forgot Zero tolerance supporters/PETA supporters.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

registereduser said:


> really? I've seen a few human scum in my life who didn't seem to register much.:-?


These people fail survival of the fittest. In ancient times their inability to work within the group would have gotten them killed.


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Don't even get me started on PETA. -.- According to them, we are all cruel for having fish in tanks instead of a natural environment. I guess that mean all parents are cruel for keeping their kids in houses instead of in natural caves.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

harleraven said:


> Don't even get me started on PETA. -.- According to them, we are all cruel for having fish in tanks instead of a natural environment. I guess that mean all parents are cruel for keeping their kids in houses instead of in natural caves.


I read this as I was spoon feeding my rats blueberry yogurt smoothies. I like to share my food with them. Cruelty indeed, no wild rat will ever know the joy of a cold smoothie on hot night or the feel of a frozen pea or fleece blankets and hammocks. If I were a rat I would so take dirty city streets over a comfortable cage -sarcastic- I love how PETA ignores the facts about things like dogs coming to us, we didn't rip them from the wild.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

And they say killing animals is okay if they do it and diabetes medicine is okay for there vice president takes it even though it is animal tested and mock autistics like myself by saying milk or meat causes it and every disease and ignore facts and run there own "research" company and say "research" says blank and mock Holocaust victims shark attack victims and sick people.They also give money to terrorist and steal animals just to kill them. Is a smoothie and human food healthy for rats just wondering also they ignore plants on farms are grown off animal products and the other parts are turned into food for fish and other animals and Christians.


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## gn3ranger (Jul 7, 2012)

+1 to ladyvictorian haha i feed my rat what i eat sometimes too, because not all wild animals can enjoy themselves a good piece of carrot cake XD.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

gn3ranger said:


> +1 to ladyvictorian haha i feed my rat what i eat sometimes too, because not all wild animals can enjoy themselves a good piece of carrot cake XD.


I know some human food is bad for pets which ones are really healthy for rats and which ones are bad I know chocolate is bad for them.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

yogurt smoothies are fine. They have to be fed fresh fruit anyways, the yogurt actually like with us gives them good bacteria in their digestive track to keep them balanced, and ice is just crushed ice. Normally I am a very healthy eater so sharing with my girls is never an issue. They can eat a lot of human foods since they are omnivores and not picky eaters in the wild. 

Oh boy, and my girls love them some carrot cake. They also had cheese cake though they weren't suppose to. They just helped themselves to mine when I wasn't looking.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> I read this as I was spoon feeding my rats blueberry yogurt smoothies. I like to share my food with them. Cruelty indeed, no wild rat will ever know the joy of a cold smoothie on hot night or the feel of a frozen pea or fleece blankets and hammocks. If I were a rat I would so take dirty city streets over a comfortable cage -sarcastic- I love how PETA ignores the facts about things like dogs coming to us, we didn't rip them from the wild.


Rats are native to Europe your care sounds better still than food finding and avoiding predators.


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> yogurt smoothies are fine. They have to be fed fresh fruit anyways, the yogurt actually like with us gives them good bacteria in their digestive track to keep them balanced, and ice is just crushed ice. Normally I am a very healthy eater so sharing with my girls is never an issue. They can eat a lot of human foods since they are omnivores and not picky eaters in the wild.
> 
> Oh boy, and my girls love them some carrot cake. They also had cheese cake though they weren't suppose to. They just helped themselves to mine when I wasn't looking.


Thanks rats are so complex like they can survive longer without water than a camel and they can swim a mile or they know a dead rats last meal.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Just to dispel two myths, rats can have chocolate just not too much. That is what they use as rewards in labs for behavioral study. I have also given my rats chocolate, the only issue with it is if you feed them too much they will get very fat and they also get very hyper from the coca in chocolate so feed small portions one a month I say.

Also rats dehydrate easily, they can't go long without water. I would say past 24 hours their bodies will start to dry out and they can even die within 24 hours with no water on a hot day. Rats are actually found near water sources more than in deserts unless they are a desert breed. NR (common brown rat also the fancy rat) can't go long without water. Sorry to get off topic just making that clear so no one thinks a rat can go long without clean fresh water.

Also the common brown rat isn't native to Europe, they are native to Asia (China at that). They didn't arrive to Europe in full swing until shortly after the first burst of black death so around the 1700's (And yet they still blame rats...T.T). First domesticated in the 1800's by Jack Black the queens official rat catcher her caught rats for pit dogs (they put rats in a pit and had dogs kill them) but the more beautiful colored ones were bred, tamed, and sold as pets to those in high society. It wasn't uncommon from a woman in high society to be at a party with an albino rat on a monkey leash in her lap.


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## harleraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Rats may not have started the plague, but they did definitely help to spread it via fleas. The Mongols are to blame for spreading the plague to Europe. The plague is the likely reason the Mongols did not take over Europe, though, as they were set to do so when it hit them. They started flinging their dead over the walls of European castles to spread disease.


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## Mako (Sep 3, 2012)

_My betta is relatively new and already it seems to know who I am. Either that, or it just likes human attention in general. Once the lid of my tank opens it, it'll swim right below it. When I put my finger inside the tank, it swam to it and brushed it's fins against it. It circled around it for a little in curiousity. I think that if I add community fish in the tank, the betta won't bother them, and actually enjoy the company. I am under the impression that my betta is upset that it's the only fish in the tank._


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## Jupiter (Aug 30, 2009)

I think all of us (including me) put a certain degree of anthropomorphic qualities in our bettas. I'd like to think the little wiggle dance my bettas do when they see me is because they're happy and excited, like my cat is when I come home, but i think it's more likely that they've learned my presence=food.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Just wanted to weigh in here. I'm a fisheries biologist. While it's becoming accepted that fish do feel pain (yes there was a time when fish weren't thought to feel physical pain), they simply don't have the mental capacity (like it physically isn't there) for the range of emotions that humans or even mammals might experience. I'm sorry, but that's the cold truth. 

That being said, there is nothing wrong with anthropomorphizing our pets. I encourage it if it helps you take better care of them, but you also have to remember that they don't actually have the emotions we attribute to them.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

thekoimaiden said:


> Just wanted to weigh in here. I'm a fisheries biologist. While it's becoming accepted that fish do feel pain (yes there was a time when fish weren't thought to feel physical pain), they simply don't have the mental capacity (like it physically isn't there) for the range of emotions that humans or even mammals might experience. I'm sorry, but that's the cold truth.
> 
> That being said, there is nothing wrong with anthropomorphizing our pets. I encourage it if it helps you take better care of them, but you also have to remember that they don't actually have the emotions we attribute to them.


+1


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> I disagree, my praying mantis certainly had emotion and showed affection by actually grooming me. They don't even do that to each other but she would sit and groom my fingers until she was satisfied and she also got excited to see me after school every day and would climb to the top of her cage so I would take her out. I certainly felt she had affection for me and enjoyed my company. Basically Scyther was a dog. My mice and rats have also shown affection and emotion. They get depressed when I am gone for a while. It went so far as my rats and mice didn't eat when I was in New York for a week. When I got home my rats actually jumped from their cage and snuggled against my neck. I think if they can feel emotions so can fish and insects. All animals feel fear this is proven. It's a survival mechanism. If you were not afraid then you would be dead and eaten so ALL things feel fear which is an emotion, fish, insects, mammals birds. We also know they feel aggression and anger, we see betta's display this. These are emotions in their own right so who is to say they can not trust and love as well? All things domesticated by man learn to live with us and even to a point understand us.


I agree with you that all animal like all humans have the capacity for emotions.

It often depends on the circumstances and care they receive.

There are many many instances of affection between caretakers and care receivers of all species.

Many things which were assumed to be impossible in the past have been shown to be possible, if occasionally unlikely.


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## rosy delta (Jul 17, 2012)

Betta's are clearly intelligent. ok, they are not rocket scientists, but clearly have a working brain, no matter how small. and most intelligent things have "emotions" though not always like we feel. I am sure they recognize us, and if they feel boredom, they must also enjoy stimulation. so - they know us, know we feed them, know we stimulate them. do they love us, probably not. do they like us, probably not. but they do know us, and accept us. I guess in Betta Language, that could translate to a type of affection. Guess we will never know for sure! Just enjoy your betta and dont worry about it!!


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## Friendlyfishies (Aug 16, 2012)

Betta fish although my favorite type of fish have always CREEPED ME OUT! I say that because they seem so incredibly smart. I dont know as though they "love" but I do think they can feel happiness, saddness, fear and learn to trust. My new guy has been very nervous and today he finally let me touch the glass of his tank without spazzing. He still looked at the finger like he could go either way about it, but instead of spazzing he relaxed and began to ignore it. Thats just my opinion tho


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## toad (Jul 17, 2012)

I usually read all the comments, but not today (lol).

In response to only the first post, I'm going to assert that all animals are capable of some sort of emotion, but then again, I'm sort of earthy-crunchy-pagan.

If, in fact, they only go on instinct, wouldn't these instincts remain unchanged? For example, wouldn't a timid, clamped fish remain as such? My 3rd betta, Percy, was timid and clamped for some time after I brought him home from Wally World. However, these days, he is friendly and relaxed, fins always held in a relaxed position and very engaging when you take the time to stop and talk to him.

So, even if they are not capable of "love" the way that we feel it, I think they are capable of some sort of bonding or attachment.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

toad said:


> I usually read all the comments, but not today (lol).
> 
> In response to only the first post, I'm going to assert that all animals are capable of some sort of emotion, but then again, I'm sort of earthy-crunchy-pagan.
> 
> ...


+1

I'm a earth loving family with nature pagan too and both science and my religion points to all things need a form of emotion to survive.

Like I said, if you don't feel fear and are fearless you will be eaten for not having the flight response to run from bigger things trying to eat you. If you do not feel satisfaction in a full belly you have no motivation to fill it and will die (proven even in humans we need the satisfaction of a fill stomach or without it we wouldn't have the want to eat.) You have to feel some form of satisfaction from mating to reproduce. Animals just don't move around and have casual pass by's with mating. NO they pursue it, all species do because it is a reward. And without anger and aggression we wouldn't be given the chance to mate. Though they are basic emotions they exist. Perhaps they can't feel complex love as well do but they do have emotion. I would say they have the compound colors of emotion, they just can't mix red with yellow to get the more complex orange on the emotional scale but it is there in it's rawest form.


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## Sceven (May 22, 2012)

I would have to say it is entirely possible for all animals to show some form of love/affection/trust. I agree, us feeding them probably has a lot to do with it. But that is how the first signs of human emotion begin to show. A human baby first trusts its parents because they take care of them, and in time this trust turns to love or affection. 

And the trust animals build is not just for us, their caretakers, but for each other as well. For example, I watched a male duck sit by the body of his mate when she was hit and killed. And he came back to that same spot for weeks after. Is this not mourning and sorrow? And does that sorrow not stem from the love he had for her. Then there is the silver back gorilla who has a kitten for a pet, or the tiger that raised orphan piglets. There are countless examples of animals loving and trusting. Why not Bettas?

We know so very little about how our own minds work, yet we assume we know so much about every other living creature. Everything has the capability to love, it just has to be given the chance.


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

ChoclateBetta said:


> and the other parts are turned into food for fish and other animals and Christians.


What is that supposed to mean?


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

Sceven said:


> I would have to say it is entirely possible for all animals to show some form of love/affection/trust. I agree, us feeding them probably has a lot to do with it. But that is how the first signs of human emotion begin to show. A human baby first trusts its parents because they take care of them, and in time this trust turns to love or affection.
> 
> And the trust animals build is not just for us, their caretakers, but for each other as well. For example, I watched a male duck sit by the body of his mate when she was hit and killed. And he came back to that same spot for weeks after. Is this not mourning and sorrow? And does that sorrow not stem from the love he had for her. Then there is the silver back gorilla who has a kitten for a pet, or the tiger that raised orphan piglets. There are countless examples of animals loving and trusting. Why not Bettas?
> 
> We know so very little about how our own minds work, yet we assume we know so much about every other living creature. Everything has the capability to love, it just has to be given the chance.



Thank you for the comment. Very beautifully written and thoughtfully observed.

We had a robin in our garden who mourned the death of its baby (bad kitties in my neighborhood) for several days even after we buried the body.

Also often horses will miss their friends after they've been retired from a working stable.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

To be honest, I think love, trust, affection, and other emotions are instinctive. I don't know about anyone here, but I never got sat down and told how to love. I've always loved people and animals from the get go. So I've always seen it as odd how science wants to separate love and instinct as if humans took a "How to Love" class in Pre-K and the sociopaths are the ones who flunked out of Emotions School. 

Whether humans want to admit it or not, our emotions are not separate from our insticts. Yes, manors and etiquet are learned through classes, but if emotions could be learned, heartless criminals could learn how to be tree huggers instead. In fact, at times when we are feeling the most extreme form of our emotions, we are usually doing the most primal and animalist things our DNA allows.

That being said, I do not think fish "trust" in the overly romantized use of the word, but it's pretty obvious my fish don't associate me with instant death. I also doubt that my fish "love" me, but my presence near their tanks does get their attention and leads to "wiggle dancing". On the most basic of levels, bettas can feel something, but I don't think they physically have a brain that is complex enough to feel the romantized versions of words. 

So when it is time for me to type about my little fishies in posts on this forum, there are two ways to go about it.

Choice 1: Emotional
"My fish are happy today because they wiggle danced for me." 

Choice 2: Factual
"My fish are continuing to show signs of associating my presence with food rewards because they trash their bodies about wildly whenever I approach their artifical habitats." 

I'm going to continue using Choice 1 even if it makes me look like I'm one step away from dressing my fish up in tiny articles of clothing. XD


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm sorry I didn't read all of this, but what I think is it is possible for a betta to "like" the person that feeds them. My guess is seeing you (the feeder) stimulates feeding sensors in the brain because they know that food is coming and that they will now live another day. lol.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I didn't read everything because everyone is essentially saying the same thing, however koimaiden is correct. 

As a past psychology student, you are confusing emotions with "emotion". There are SIX main emotions that are called "basic emotions" that animals and even babies are capable of expressing. However this generally only applies to higher cortex animals such as dogs/cats/elephants/humans. Where they are capable of having conscious awareness and conscious thought. For anybody curious, those basic emotions are: Anger, Fear, Sadness, Happiness, Excitement, and Tenderness. Note that being tender is NOT "love". It's more like compassion, i.e. if somebody falls down you would ask if they're okay and if they need help. Love is a complex emotion that is generally only displayed in very high order mammals such as humans.

Different animals will "recognize" you in a different manner. Humans remember voices and faces, most higher order mammals will remember your face, voice, or scent. Mice that were mentioned in this conversation will probably only recognize your scent and voice.

Somebody mentioned that an animal "won't bite the hand that feeds them". This is most definitely true. I'm not saying that animals don't bond with the owner AT ALL, but we bond moreso to them than them to us. 

I anthropomorphize my fish a lot, it's probably a coping mechanism to compensate for the lack of emotion. There's no shame in it.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

They see a hand hovering over their container and they know that it means food. lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

So anthropomorphising is giving animals emotions that you don't have?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Anthropomorphizing is putting human emotions on animals (or objects).
I think it's the way to go with fish. xD At least I can pretend they love me.
I don't think fish feel trust, I think they more or less desensitize to the "threat" of your hand after a while.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

@DQ: Yup pretty much what Olympia said, I just re-read mine, sorry it wasn't clear XD

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Another good example is people saying that their betta is "lonely" and want to give it "friends". Fish, even schooling/shoaling fish, generally do not display loneliness. Loneliness is a complex emotion stemming off of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Schooling/shoaling fish stick together for safety...essentially just pray that the predator will eat somebody else instead of you in the large school. XD


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree that bettas don't get lonely. They are solitary fish andmay get stressed out if they have to live with other fish.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

dramaqueen said:


> I agree that bettas don't get lonely. They are solitary fish andmay get stressed out if they have to live with other fish.


I think they have been domesticated to the point that they miss people.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

There is a fascinating genetic breeding study of Siberian foxes which shows that the affection for humans can be selectively bred into a species.

This is a quotation from a summary of the research. The study has been going on for 50 years.

*
I just learned that Belyaev found out that the "tameness trait" was actually an adrenal response. Within 10 generations of selecting for tameness, foxes had much lower adrenaline levels than their wild counterparts.

The neural formation pathway for adrenaline response is linked to a host of other traits, all of which he was now observing after those 10 generations: mottled or white fur color (melonin), droopy or small ears, shortened muzzles, shorter tails.

Adrenaline was only one hormone in a collection of many that ended up being effected.*


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Interesting.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree. It is a very interesting study, but bettas haven't been bred for tameness. They were originally bred for tenacity as fighting fish and later on color and fin shape. A breeder isn't going to pick the one that likes your finger the most, they are going to pick the one that has the best chance of good fins and color. 

Maybe if someone did breed them for tameness we would see a different result.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> I agree. It is a very interesting study, but bettas haven't been bred for tameness. They were originally bred for tenacity as fighting fish and later on color and fin shape. A breeder isn't going to pick the one that likes your finger the most, they are going to pick the one that has the best chance of good fins and color.
> 
> Maybe if someone did breed them for tameness we would see a different result.


I think that the first bettas were selectively bred for ferocity.

Now people are breeding for specific coloration. It was noted in that fox study that particular genetic physical markers are associated with particular emotional make up.

It then makes sense to me that certain coloration might be associated with particular emotional capacity in betta fish as well.

It may be that people are subconsciously attracted to color patterns that have certain responses.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

BettaQi said:


> I think that the first bettas were selectively bred for ferocity.
> 
> Now people are breeding for specific coloration. It was noted in that fox study that particular genetic physical markers are associated with particular emotional make up.
> 
> ...


I think you're taking it a bit too far. The brains of fish and mammals aren't as alike as you seem to think. Mammals have a lot more gray matter and a lot more processing capacity. Fish simply don't. Their brains are 1/15 the size of a mammal or bird of the equivalent size. 

But we have all colors of bettas from black to green to blue to yellow. If your reasoning was sound then there would be trends in behavior and color as there are true-breeding color lines. I have never heard of a single reliable report of this. 

If the color-emotional response held true in fish (if it's extrapolated between high animals and lower animals then it should), then we would also see similar examples in other long-time domesticated fish like goldfish and koi. Never have I heard anything about this.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> I think you're taking it a bit too far. The brains of fish and mammals aren't as alike as you seem to think. Mammals have a lot more gray matter and a lot more processing capacity. Fish simply don't. Their brains are 1/15 the size of a mammal or bird of the equivalent size.
> 
> But we have all colors of bettas from black to green to blue to yellow. If your reasoning was sound then there would be trends in behavior and color as there are true-breeding color lines. I have never heard of a single reliable report of this.
> 
> If the color-emotional response held true in fish (if it's extrapolated between high animals and lower animals then it should), then we would also see similar examples in other long-time domesticated fish like goldfish and koi. Never have I heard anything about this.



I din't think anything is outside the realm of possibility.

Just because no one has studied it and reported on it as yet, doesn't mean it is impossible.

Also, in the other item I posted, about consciousness:


*[What was keeping scientists from accepting the existence of consciousness outside of our own family tree? Simple brain anatomy. 

Older models of brain activity lodged complex, conscious experiences—like musing about a piece of music or reminiscing about a piece of cake—in our highly evolved cortex. 

But, as the authors of the new declaration noted, many nerve networks involved in “attentiveness, sleep and decision making appear to have arisen in evolution as early as invertebrate radiation, being evident in insects and cephalopod mollusks (e.g. octopus).”

Even emotions (or, according to the declaration, their “neural substrates”) are not dependent on an animal having particular brain structures, such as our cortex, after all. In fact, many other neural regions are activated when we emote and “are also critically important for generating emotional behaviors in animals,” the scientists noted.*


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

The quotation is from a summarization in Scientific American.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

The First Annual Francis Crick Memorial Conference, focusing on "Consciousness in Humans and Non-Human Animals", aims to provide a purely data-driven perspective on the neural correlates of consciousness. The most advanced quantitative techniques for measuring and monitoring consciousness will be presented, with the topics of focus ranging from exploring the properties of neurons deep in the brainstem, to assessing global cerebral function in comatose patients. Model organisms investigated will span the species spectrum from flies to rodents, humans to birds, elephants to dolphins, and will be approached from the viewpoint of three branches of biology: anatomy, physiology, and behavior. Until animals have their own storytellers, humans will always have the most glorious part of the story, and with this proverbial concept in mind, the symposium will address the notion that humans do not alone possess the neurological faculties that constitute consciousness as it is presently understood.

Conference description.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yea no, don't think fish are very bright animals. xD


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Octopuses Gain Consciousness (According to Scientists’ Declaration) | Octopus Chronicles, Scientific American Blog Network I would like to point out that the article did not mention teleost fishes and is not a peer-reviewed article but a blog. 

There are things outside the realm of possibility. Complex emotions in fish are one of those. A very select number of animals have shown these. There could be a connection between color and "personality" but until my experiences and those of people who I trust tell me otherwise, I will be skeptical. 

Frankly I would like it if fish were shown to have basic emotions. It would mean a lot less mistreatment of them in pet stores. But science isn't about what we like.


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

of course bettas and other fish have the capacity to bond and interact on a semi-emotional level with their keepers. all living things have it, to some degree, even plants. bettas might have a little more than, say, a pleco or parrotfish, because in the wild bettas need to hunt and capture prey that can escape them, so they have more intelligence than a fish that simply takes a bite out of something that can't run away.

my fiance had an experience with our betta Eric. she was feeding the fish in the afternoon, and she picked up the jar of food to go feed the bettas in out bedroom. Eric saw the jar and got excited, and then when she came back to feed him and Godric, he was huddled in the back of the tank sulking, and wouldn't come out even when she held the jar right up to the tank and called for him. it seems like bettas have the ability to feel emotions like disappointment or rejection, as well as positive ones.

another interesting note: while not a sign of emotions, bettas are one of the "simplest" animals known to understand and use basic military tactics. if two have started fighting in a body of water and another sees it, he won't jump in, but will instead wait till the first fight is over, and then make a move, because he knows that he'll have an easier fight against an already weakened opponent.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> Octopuses Gain Consciousness (According to Scientists’ Declaration) | Octopus Chronicles, Scientific American Blog Network I would like to point out that the article did not mention teleost fishes and is not a peer-reviewed article but a blog.
> 
> There are things outside the realm of possibility. Complex emotions in fish are one of those. A very select number of animals have shown these. There could be a connection between color and "personality" but until my experiences and those of people who I trust tell me otherwise, I will be skeptical.
> 
> Frankly I would like it if fish were shown to have basic emotions. It would mean a lot less mistreatment of them in pet stores. But science isn't about what we like.



I am not sure that just declaring something to be out of the realm of possibility makes it so.

Many things that in the past were declared to be impossible have been shown to be possible, even though highly unlikely.

Even fish behavior.

It may be that no one has done a study on betta fish yet.

It may be that any study is inherently biased depending on the unconscious conditioning of the persons involved in it.

That might make something appear to be impossible, depending on one's personal background and ways of reasoning.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

homegrown terror said:


> of course bettas and other fish have the capacity to bond and interact on a semi-emotional level with their keepers. all living things have it, to some degree, even plants. bettas might have a little more than, say, a pleco or parrotfish, because in the wild bettas need to hunt and capture prey that can escape them, so they have more intelligence than a fish that simply takes a bite out of something that can't run away.
> 
> my fiance had an experience with our betta Eric. she was feeding the fish in the afternoon, and she picked up the jar of food to go feed the bettas in out bedroom. Eric saw the jar and got excited, and then when she came back to feed him and Godric, he was huddled in the back of the tank sulking, and wouldn't come out even when she held the jar right up to the tank and called for him. it seems like bettas have the ability to feel emotions like disappointment or rejection, as well as positive ones.
> 
> another interesting note: while not a sign of emotions, bettas are one of the "simplest" animals known to understand and use basic military tactics. if two have started fighting in a body of water and another sees it, he won't jump in, but will instead wait till the first fight is over, and then make a move, because he knows that he'll have an easier fight against an already weakened opponent.



Is Godric usually sulky?

My two Prana and Qi are very different.

Prana fears nothing. She's a straight up thug.

Qi likes to assess situations and can be timid when faced with a new situation, like swimming over a new kind of plant.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

There have been plenty of studies done on betta fish. They are commonly used as subjects because of their ease of care. Not many fish can survive in 5 gallons of water. I would think that if scientists had seen something that hinted at higher emotions, they would have noted it and explored it further. Keepers humanize them. Scientists don't. They are taught not to with lab animals, as it may influence observations. Our observations of them as pets are flawed from a scientific standpoint. 

You're right. Declaring something impossible doesn't make it so. After all the world was once known to be flat. But given the many people that studied fish and worked directly with them, you would think that at least one would stand up and say, "Hey maybe there is more going on here." No one has. All we have is the biased views of pet owners. Until hard scientific evidence comes through... I'll maintain my stance.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

But you know those mormyrids are a whole 'nother story, eh Izzy? :lol: They're little smarty pants.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

thekoimaiden said:


> There have been plenty of studies done on betta fish. They are commonly used as subjects because of their ease of care. Not many fish can survive in 5 gallons of water. I would think that if scientists had seen something that hinted at higher emotions, they would have noted it and explored it further. Keepers humanize them. Scientists don't. They are taught not to with lab animals, as it may influence observations. Our observations of them as pets are flawed from a scientific standpoint.
> 
> You're right. Declaring something impossible doesn't make it so. After all the world was once known to be flat. But given the many people that studied fish and worked directly with them, you would think that at least one would stand up and say, "Hey maybe there is more going on here." No one has. All we have is the biased views of pet owners. Until hard scientific evidence comes through... I'll maintain my stance.


I'll stand with you, instinct is so strong and can be mistaken for emotions IMO. But bettas are more "human" than other fish which is why we prefer them :lol: Just the way their eyes move and seem to talk to you :-D


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Olympia said:


> But you know those mormyrids are a whole 'nother story, eh Izzy? :lol: They're little smarty pants.


Gee. You're an early riser! But you're right about those adorable little elephant-nosed guys. Smartest fish in the teleosts. Most of the research on fish intelligence has been done on them and how they use electroreception. There is an interesting career path for you: study mormyrids! You would finally get your elephant fish!


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## Opioid Slumber (Aug 23, 2012)

I enjoy believing that all the fish we own like me, my fiancee and our son. I don't want to feel the way all the naysayers, those that are on the fence and one fisheries biologist feel about it. It makes me feel good to see Sam swim up to the front of his tank, being all wiggly and cute, whenever I walk in our bedroom. Or how he responds to my voice and yes, to food time! I love how Vlad and Rasputin will kind of just stare at me, facing straight forward so I can only see their faces, a thin line of fin and adorable little pectorals! 

I don't want to believe that my pets are basically just living art that I stupidly speak to all the time. It seems like it would be a bit sad (only to the human, of course, in this line of thinking) to see them like that. I think it would also make them boring. Yes, you're looking at some that's very pretty, but that's about it. It's like talking to and feeding the emotional equivalent of a wall. I'm not weird enough to talk to walls yet, much less feed them! (I'm just kidding right there, attempting my version of humor) 

If you want to feed something that can't wiggle and flare and have a unique personality, plants are probably a good choice. Unless you just like to feel as if you're the all powerful master of their universe and they had better be conscious of THAT. Who cares if they don't love you? You have the power of the Water Change and other powerful stuff. You are the Leafy Plant & Cave Giver, the Pellet Dispenser! :crazy: Sorry... I'm being weird. I hope someone besides my fiancee can understand my sense of humor!

I like to interact with my bettas and other fishies. So, for me and my family, believing that our soggy friends enjoy having us around is what's right. 

Last thing...



homegrown terror said:


> my fiance had an experience with our betta Eric. she was feeding the fish in the afternoon, and she picked up the jar of food to go feed the bettas in out bedroom. Eric saw the jar and got excited, and then when she came back to feed him and Godric, he was huddled in the back of the tank sulking, and wouldn't come out even when she held the jar right up to the tank and called for him. it seems like bettas have the ability to feel emotions like disappointment or rejection, as well as positive ones.


Eric really did seem so upset about me walking away holding his food! When I came back he looked so sad hiding in the back of his tank that it was pitiful. I felt terrible because he wouldn't come out, it took him several minutes to start eating his food after I put it in there. I told my fiancee that I'd hurt Eric's feelings and he agreed after I told him what happened. We haven't let it happen again, and won't.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

thekoimaiden said:


> Gee. You're an early riser! But you're right about those adorable little elephant-nosed guys. Smartest fish in the teleosts. Most of the research on fish intelligence has been done on them and how they use electroreception. There is an interesting career path for you: study mormyrids! You would finally get your elephant fish!


School!
Haha, that would be pretty awesome. They are such cool fish, I wouldn't mind hoards of them to study.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

Olympia said:


> School!
> Haha, that would be pretty awesome. They are such cool fish, I wouldn't mind hoards of them to study.


I have this image of them doing synchronized swimming routines for you!

Hordes of cute and smart!


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Like these guys.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

BettaQi said:


> Even emotions (or, according to the declaration, their “neural substrates”) are not dependent on an animal having particular brain structures, such as our cortex, after all. In fact, many other neural regions are activated when we emote and “are also critically important for generating emotional behaviors in animals,” the scientists noted.


As I was saying before, there are a few definitions of emotion. One requires only basal reactions such as fear and anger. The other such as love, admiration, etc. require a higher-order mammal to use its cortex to transpose its basal reactions into a complex emotion. Your betta doesn't "get mad at you" like a friend does when you don't share your lunch with them, they show pure aggression towards an intruder. They are not "happy" when you come into the room with food, they recognize you as the caregiver and bringer of food, so they come swimming up to the front of the tank to guarantee their chance at food. When instead you do not actually feed them, they don't sulk, they just resume their business. 

As for all the things regarding "oh my betta recognizes its favourite food bottle" "oh my betta doesn't like my boyfriend". It is simply because the betta has learned -- Through simple Pavlovian learning, that you are the caregiver, and the food bottle is representative of food, or the conditioned stimulus.

I, as a scientist myself, will stand with koimaiden. One or two articles from a "science blog" don't really mean too much, IMO.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm glad I'm not a scientist and have to worry about all that stuff. I love my fish whether they csn show feelings or not.


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## BettaQi (Jul 26, 2012)

bahamut285 said:


> As I was saying before, there are a few definitions of emotion. One requires only basal reactions such as fear and anger. The other such as love, admiration, etc. require a higher-order mammal to use its cortex to transpose its basal reactions into a complex emotion. Your betta doesn't "get mad at you" like a friend does when you don't share your lunch with them, they show pure aggression towards an intruder. They are not "happy" when you come into the room with food, they recognize you as the caregiver and bringer of food, so they come swimming up to the front of the tank to guarantee their chance at food. When instead you do not actually feed them, they don't sulk, they just resume their business.
> 
> As for all the things regarding "oh my betta recognizes its favourite food bottle" "oh my betta doesn't like my boyfriend". It is simply because the betta has learned -- Through simple Pavlovian learning, that you are the caregiver, and the food bottle is representative of food, or the conditioned stimulus.
> 
> I, as a scientist myself, will stand with koimaiden. One or two articles from a "science blog" don't really mean too much, IMO.


I would consider the Francis Crick Conference more than just a "science blog."

http://fcmconference.org/


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I was referring to the "article" on the cephalopods. Thekoimaiden pointed out the same thing.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...iousness-according-to-scientists-declaration/

The Author who wrote this "article" is merely a journalist. It is not the full scientific paper, but it's like she just summarizes the abstracts of a few articles.


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## SnowySurface (Apr 25, 2011)

BettaQi said:


> I am not sure that just declaring something to be out of the realm of possibility makes it so.
> 
> Many things that in the past were declared to be impossible have been shown to be possible, even though highly unlikely.
> 
> ...


Sorry if this response is a bit late, I had a busy weekend. XD 

You are both right and wrong.

There was a point when humans thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe. Any other model of the universe was considered impossible and just down right wrong. Just because the idea of a round earth orbiting a sun was tossed out as impossible did not make that impossible. In fact, I don't have any links, but I think some astrologist think a black hole could be the center of our universe instead of the sun. So our view of the universe changes time and time again. 

Therefore, I agree declaring something out of the realm of possibility does not make it so. The technology we have now would seem impossible and the down right ridiculous to someone from 1960. But that does not change the fact that 7 year olds have phones more powerful than research computers from the 1960. 

However, sentience is not one of those things that is constantly changing. There is a barrier between sentient thought and primal thought processes that separates man from animal. Dogs can miss you when you are gone, feel back when scolded, get confused by mixed messages, and express many more emotions. But those are simple emotions. Two dogs that want to mate are going to go at it on the front lawn. It is impossible for a dog to understand that "puppy making" is best left to the dog house because that is a sentient level thought process. 

The reason why we can own pets in the first place is because humans are the only sentient animals on this planet capable of feeling abstract emotions. 

Now, none of this means fish don't deserve to be loved by humans. I can't count the number of times I've said to Smokey, "Stop wiggle dancing and eat your breakfast before I'm late for work," as if Smokey gets the concept of wiggle dancing, breakfast, or work. So don't think this is just one long, "fish are just fish," rant. I'm just saying that fish are not evolved enough for complex or abstract emotions.


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