# Fish Cruelty Okay?



## blackjack (Jul 19, 2015)

I didn't know where else to put this. Nobody here agrees with it or we wouldn't be on this site. I am legitimately asking why fish are not treated in any way like animals. They are sold in department stores and used as prizes in fairs. Most people see them as living decorations, not pets. I actually googled it and came up with nothing. 

I know they're far different from humans, don't have truly expressive faces, and can't make noises that would indicate pain. Neither do most reptiles and amphibians. 

As much as I'm going to complain about it, that's actually not what I'm doing here. I want to know if anyone can tell me why things that would be considered cruel to any other kind of animal isn't when it comes to fish. Why are no other animals sold in regular department stores, but fish are?


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Because fish are not pets. Never were. They're living decorations. Always been.

Certain groups of fish can be personable. But even if they are, they're still rarely bought for personality. I got 5 out of my 6 online. And the latest boy I just decided to keep was bought - and kept - for the sole reason of appearance. They're my pets alright, but really it's only because I'm a hopeless animal lover. While I do demand major chain stores to better their aquatics care, I can't ask everyone to be as attached to their fish as I am. While I do get irritated if people don't research before purchasing a fish, I can't ask everyone to not see these fish as collectible items or living decorations. Because, well, as long as you care for those fish properly, they were initially brought into aquariums for that very purpose anyway.

Tl;dr -> fish cruelty is NOT okay. They're living beings just like any other. But fish objectification is... Not "okay", but "acceptable".


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## NickAu (Sep 28, 2015)

> Because fish are not pets. Never were. They're living decorations. Always been.


You are right, sadly.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Unfortunately many birds are treated as decorations too. 
All we can do is work for changes. In attitudes, in practices. 
The more vocal we are the sooner change comes about. 
Squeaky wheels get greased.


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## blackjack (Jul 19, 2015)

I really am just wondering why. I know it's pretty much always been this way. What makes fish not pets, but decorations? Why are they seen so much differently? Even other animals that can't be handled are not thought of like fish are, so it's not just a touch type of thing.


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## TankAddict (Apr 7, 2016)

Because sadly somewhere in some people's head's is the thought that if it's not cuddly it's life doesn't count.
That's the only true reason IMO.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

for me personally yes my fish are decorations! Sounds cruel I know! But I can assure you they are well cared for! Most of my fish are bought for appearance not their personalities. I'm not sure why are fish decorations, maybe because people don't understand them.

My first fish tank was a little .5 gallon cube for a decoration for my room! But it wasn't the fish's care in my mind. She began looked ugly (she was sick and cold) I guess you could say so I wondered why and found the forum.

In my life fish are my decorations and they are my favorite type of decorations! Why do people have ponds? For looks but the kio are still healthy. Why do people own big aquariums that are aquascaped? For looks but the fish are still healthy.

All fish technically are decorations. but that doesn't mean that they can't live a good healthy life. A happy fish is a beautiful fish!


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

^ what TankAddict said

It's human nature. If something doesn't give back to you, or _perceived _not to give back to you, then it doesn't deserve what you (can) give to them. Dogs are useful in many ways. I don't even need to name the list. Cats... I don't know, they're just furry and cuddly? Don't know too much about cats.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

LOL cats I love cats! My cat can walk on a leash and knows 20+ tricks. I think he thinks he's a dog.

100 years ago no animals were pets, they all had a purpose. What's a fish's purpose? Being pretty.


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Ha, 100?  We've been keeping dogs for an estimate of _twelve thousand _years. There's even a recent challenge to that after a discovery of a domesticated canine skull dating to 31,700 years ago. We've had cats even longer. This may or may not be why we're so very attached to our dogs and cats. How long have we had fish? Three hundred, four hundred years? It's nowhere near as long as dogs and cats, that's for sure. Which raised a curious question: if we give fish-keeping another six hundred years to make it a full thousand, will we get as attached to them as we do to our cats and dogs? Hmmm...


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## Nox (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes exactly. I love my fish. . . Now that said I mostly love looking at my fish. They get water changes as frequently as needed at top quality food. Why because I want them to look nice. I want them to be happy too of course and I would be very sad if they died, but ultimately I just want to sit on my floor look at my fish shelf and watch my little fish swim and swim and swim. It is relaxing. If they were not happy and healthy they wouldn't be swimming and swimming so nicely. They are my pets yes and my decorations. This is common in cats and dogs as well, many have been breed to look a certain way. I think they love for fish comes more from people subconsciously putting value into something that they put so much work into e.g. if I do so much and spend so much money on fish then I must love my fish. It is more a subconscious rationalization. This of course is how I would look at it from a psychological point of view.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

Ok I'm not really good with dates LOL. But Horses had a purpose, all farm animals had a purpose, even most dogs and cats had a purpose.


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## Nox (Feb 22, 2016)

Now I do think as the hobby grow then maybe this could change, but it is hard to interact with fish in a way that shows companionship. possibly because some fish don't have companionship behavior. For instance MY friends glotetras. I don't like them at all they don't notice me they only notice when food is in their water. To me they just are just decorations. My bettas do have some personality, but not as much as my cat. I talk to them and those things and have a bond yes but not to the extent of say this video of fish companionship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0INzbh587o
this animal obviously wants human interaction. its human can touch it, thus oxytocin is released for the person and the strong is greater. I am sure similiar hormones are released for the fish and that it would get lonely if it's person left for awhile or didn't pet it (the uploader says this fish will actively try to get your attention just to get petted). I think if fish were bred for this quality instead of in color and shape then maybe fish could be like dogs and cats. Others animals started to help people kill things fish started to look nice. Everything has to start somewhere. why do you think zoos exsist, for people too look at all the pretty animals. an aquarium is an at home zoo. sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but the analogy seemed right for most aquariums


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

my goldfish do that!


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## RMKelly (Jan 17, 2016)

I've been wondering this myself, I get so angry about it. I brought my boys because I felt a connection with them when I saw them, yes I do have my favorite colours of Betta but there also needs to be a connection there. 

The type of "tanks" they make for fish just annoys me, a few days ago I saw a tank designed to be a coffee table on Facebook! One of my friends tagged me in it saying it'd be a "good tank" for my boys. I told her my boys are _not_ decorations, they are my babies...she never heard the end of it. 

If I buy an animal, bird, fish, cat, dog or rabbit, it's my family. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Nox (Feb 22, 2016)

That I can agree on. While beautiful they should be respected an dput in environments that will make them happy and healthy not ones that make them purely decorational. They are decorations and not. They shouldn't be treated like they are, but when interacting with them it is like watching the beauty of nature in your home. I guess best way to put it do I love and care for my fish? yes. Do I want my fish to have the best lives I can give them? yes. Do I have a bond with my fish? yes. What is the purpose of my fish? no matter what I say at minimume it would be as a decoration or something of equal standard to most people and at maximume as a cute aquatic friend that makes me happy. I love my fish's personalities, but I am not going to say I wouldn't get a fish because it was pretty, heck I would get a dog for the same reason if I bred them for show


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

RMKelly said:


> I've been wondering this myself, I get so angry about it. I brought my boys because I felt a connection with them when I saw them, yes I do have my favorite colours of Betta but there also needs to be a connection there.
> 
> The type of "tanks" they make for fish just annoys me, a few days ago I saw a tank designed to be a coffee table on Facebook! One of my friends tagged me in it saying it'd be a "good tank" for my boys. I told her my boys are _not_ decorations, they are my babies...she never heard the end of it.
> 
> If I buy an animal, bird, fish, cat, dog or rabbit, it's my family. Nothing more, nothing less.


And I respect that! But to me my fish are my decorations. I have a connection with all my fish and I worry about them but most of them are for their appearance. Over half of my boys are bought off ebay or aquabid or forum members. I don't know that their personalities are, I get them because I like how they look.

I really respect how you picked your boys because of their personalities!


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## TankAddict (Apr 7, 2016)

Nova betta said:


> And I respect that! But to me my fish are my decorations. I have a connection with all my fish and I worry about them but most of them are for their appearance. Over half of my boys are bought off ebay or aquabid or forum members. I don't know that their personalities are, I get them because I like how they look.
> 
> I really respect how you picked your boys because of their personalities!


I say each to their own as long as they are cared for but yeah I'm the opposite.

I can't help it I love fish for their personalities if they look nice it's just a bonus though obvs I buy them for looks before I get to discover their personalities*, end of the day only I absolutely HAVE to look at them nobody else so I'm free to personally get more enjoyment out of the quirky behaviours than the "plumage" for lack of a better word.

* But I think that's true of dogs too, you don't see or get to know the full character until you bring them home and they have had a chance to settle in and relax.

And personally I get the same stress relief watching my fish as I do if I pet a dog.
*
I used to have anxiety disorder* really bad but it started disappearing about three weeks after I got my first Aquarium fish  .


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

I think I buy the fish for looks then I get emotionally attached to them!


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

It's different with dogs, though. I brought my dog home the very night I saw him because there's nowhere else for him to go and he's in immediate need of proper care. Our "get to know" session was 10 minutes tops. And even then it was a mock session because we know he's coming home with us either ways. Did I bring him home because he looks like a mini wolf? Ooh yes, certainly. But as time goes by, he serves much much less of that purpose. He did not sit on my feet to look pretty. He's there to comfort me during panic attacks. He's there to give me a living purpose. He's there to do anything *but* parading his beauty. I assume the same goes for cats. 

But fish?

I *did* buy my first Betta because I need another animal to take over my dog's job. But at the end of the day the therapeutic effect comes from taking care of them - which gives me less time to sit around and be depressed. Oh and of course, conversing with you like-minded people. The fish themselves just swim around looking pretty.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

It could also have something to do with the notion that they can't feel real emotions, which is not true, but widely accepted. Thus the phrase "cold as a fish" being used to mean un loving or not affectionate.
As to the depth of emotion they feel, that's not easily quantifiable. Exitement and aggression for sure, but do they feel happy, or sad? Do they have affection for thier keepers? Most think not, so it's justifiable to objectify them.


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## Nox (Feb 22, 2016)

I think it depends on the hobbiest to be honest. I think fish are bought for their looks, but loved for their personalities. Which usually you won't find out until you bring them home. To me I think many people who get their kids goldfish for those tiny tanks objectify fish more so than someone who would take the time to discuss fish objectification  . My aunt for example would be such a person. She doesn't like snakes because she said they can't feel love and have no emotions, I think someone like her would have a similar opinion about fish and would think me crazy if I started talking about my fishy babies to her. Ultimately depends on hobbiest, fish, and purpose for keeping an aquarium. Okay end of my two cents I really need to stop responding every two posts


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## RMKelly (Jan 17, 2016)

I think all living things have feelings and emotions, even plants. Yes I have been called crazy and told that I need therapy because of it.


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## blackjack (Jul 19, 2015)

Thank you all. I've gotten some wonderful answers. I just want to make sure everybody knows I'm not talking about getting a fish because of the way they look being a bad thing. Most of the reason people like having a fish in their home ihttps://mail.google.com/mail/?tab=wm#inboxs to watch them. I do pick mine based on personality, but most of the pleasure I get from him is watching him...and getting him to bite me. Most people choose based on looks and that's fine. 

What I was really trying to ask was why fish are seen as less important pets than other animals. Some people have answered this and there have been some great responses.

As an aside, I also have reptiles and frogs and no one will ever convince me they have no emotions.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

In most cultures fish are seen as food, and were long before being kept as pets. Dogs & cats are for the most part pets, few cultures use them for food. I could see where birds do get similar treatment as fish, you could have a pet chicken or some such, but for the majority they're part of our food chain.


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## Nox (Feb 22, 2016)

I know I said I would be done, I can't stop. To answer your second question/ first? I think most people just see fish as lesser life forms. I was watching a video on how to make beef heart betta food for raising fry. A commenter was just appalled, because they viewed fish as lower than cows. They thought it was morally wrong to feed a creature of higher consciousness to one of lower consciousness. So I think many people just view fish as basic creatures with no thought feeling or emotions almost on the same scale as an insect. While this is obviously not true some people think this way.


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## Rennie Sky (Feb 27, 2016)

There's also a cut off for most people based on size and perceived intelligence, even if it's subconscious. I doubt most people here would hesitate to kill or have killed cockroaches if their home were infested. Who is to say a Betta is smarter, more worthy of care then a roach? They are similar sizes.

Like many I grew up with a father that fished and regularly brought fish home for dinner. That's bound to impact people as well.

And most people do get fish for their beauty. They truly are not capable of providing the same level of companionship as many of our other pets.

I've had an adored pet rats. And they are quite intelligent and capable of "relationships" with their humans. Yet I've also killed wild ones when they were in my barn and threatening the health of myself and my horses. I took no pleasure in it, I hated it, but had to make that call.

My big issue is a lack of suffering. If I'm going to kill anything, even a fly, I do my best to ensure it's instant and painless. Suffering is what really gets to me, not death. Animals in our care don't have the ability to understand and dread the fact that we are going to put them down. So it's not the death that bothers me, other than for my own selfish reasons of missing them, it's doing everything that I can do to ensure they go out without fear or pain. 

I think my fish get really good care. My two current Betta are in 5 gallon tanks, heated, filtered cycled or cycling with constant water checks. I feed high quality foods. I don't even want to think what Ive spent on quality silk plants and other extras for them.

But, unlike my dogs, cats and horse, I won't cry when they die. I will euthanize if I believe they are suffering and can't be helped. My main purpose in owning fish is because I enjoy and find relaxing looking at my lovely tanks and fish. I also enjoy watching and learning about the behaviours of different fish species.

I hope this doesn't make me sound cold. I do believe fish should receive better care in many stores and homes. I hate to think of Betta being kept in tiny, dirty, cold, vases. I'm known by most people as a crazy animal lady. Which is the reason we currently have two dogs and three rescued cats in our little bitty house. I care, but to me they are somewhat different.

Just another perspective.


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## blackjack (Jul 19, 2015)

You don't sound cold really. I'm actually getting some really good and/or interesting answers. I am pretty much insane according to most people. For health reasons I would have to, but I absolutely hate the thought of killing cockroaches. They're my favourite bug actually. I don't kill any bug unless there's absolutely no other option. Back on topic though.

I do get what you're saying. I am in love with my fish and have to admit, probably will cry or at least mourn when he goes. However, I'm aware he does not love me as much as my cats do and I could go without a fish around easier than I could without a cat. However, giving him up wouldn't be that much easier.

I understand and accept what everyone's saying. I just hate that they're seen as lesser life forms. They deserve the same respect as any other species. 

Finally, off topic, but aren't rats wonderful? I was keeping rats for over ten years. I think it was eleven. The only reason I stopped is that their short lifespan and need for others, lead to their friends mourning them and it was just too sad. If they lived longer or weren't so social, I'd have never stopped having them. I actually have a tattoo of my first one. That's another animal sorely underestimated and always misunderstood.


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

Aha, about the roaches thing, we DO actually keep roaches as pets. Only one kind though: the Madagascar hissing cockroach -> http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/insectsspiders/p/hissingroach.htm. TBH the only hissing sound you'll hear with these roaches in the room is from me hiding under the table. And hey, now that we're talking about it, roach owners are probably rambling about the same thing as we speak. "What do you mean I can't love my roaches? They're my PETS!". 

*shrug*

I'll be honest. I'm one of those people that would raise an eyebrow when people say they love their snakes. I just cannot wrap my head around the idea of a snake forming an emotional relationship with a human. But then again, I'm also that girl who cried for months when her fish died. I've come to the conclusion that humans are just *bleep* ing weird. Let's not decide as a whole species what to appreciate and what not to appreciate. _Maybe _the majority of the population don't value roaches as pets. But that doesn't eliminate the possibility of a group of people who values them just as much as most of us value dogs. So... I don't know, why don't we just keep an open mind? Not _we_ we, since people here are mostly mature and tolerant and all, but I mean everyone. As a whole community we need to be less judgmental about what sort of animals people can/should keep as pets. And as a part of our open-mindedness, let's treat all animals with respect. For example, I'm terrified of snails. They can die in the most painful way possible for all I care. But that doesn't mean I will consciously choose said way just so I know they'd suffer. Know what I mean? 

At the end of the day that ^^^ was just a whole block of text about a very generic opinion. Nox if you're reading this, at least you're actually contributing to the discussion LOL


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## TankAddict (Apr 7, 2016)

Don't get mad but as a vegetarian I don't really see any animal as lower than another but given the choice and if I absolutely had to pick one I would say bugs are lower and more often than not people kill them very quickly like if I could not know anything about it then in a split second a fifty foot shoe of doom splatted me it's probably one of the better ways animals get killed. I guess that's why I feed my carnivorous fish insect based feed, I mean you can't hold an animal to a humans ethical standards any way Imo. But it's nice to pick the lesser of two evils whenever I can.
https://youtu.be/AIi1nnPo_r8


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## Euro (Nov 13, 2015)

I got all of these animals in the house (except for dogs but I don't really like dogs, dogs are great if I can give them back) and I can tell you some are more "Attachment forming" then others. Theres also a level of anthropomorphism that we apply to our pets, I do it too, its not a bad thing, but I understand that some animals that are my pets have lower brain functions then others. Does that mean I don't care for them? No, but I can't pet my tetras as I can a cat (I pet my bettas and crayfish because they swim into my hand and chill and the goldfish nibble my fingers because they think its food but I guess thats bonding time. Where as with a cat, you can play with them and snuggle them and they will actively come seek you out for attention and thy greet you when you come home like they missed you and will come sit in the same room with you because they like your company.

We have 3 cats, 14 tanks of fish, 6 goldfish, I have 22 bettas, the wife has 90+ hissers, 2 snakes, a betta of her own,a chilean rose hair and a bearded dragon. All of them "form attachments", some closer to what we humans see as attachments (I.E the cats). Fish recognize me because I'm the food provider, the snakes don't really recognize you in the human sense as accept that you handle them now and they put up with it, same with the hissers, but you can easily hold them. Theres one Called O-roach-imaru and I remember when we first got him he would do nothing but hiss and complain. now you hold him and he just chills and explores your hand. Has he formed an attachment? Eh, not in the sense that cats do or dogs do or birds or anything like that, but he understands that we, as humans, aren't going to hurt him which, for me and dealing with a more basic life form, is all the fulfillment I need.

But back to the topic of fish a decorations, thats how the hobby started out in the modern,western sense in the 18th so, unfortunately, yes, we see them as part of the family because thats what humans do most of the time, but we shouldn't and can't deny this all started for decorative purposes (or keeping fish fresher if you back earlier in time, so it had a purpose for feeding us).


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I actually have kept some of my fish purely for personality, green sunfish being one species. These have to be the smartest fish I've never seen they even recognize individual people and animals
even though they have the temper of large cichlids and are considered a sport fish I absolutely love them


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## B3TT45 (Oct 9, 2013)

This thread is absolutely fascinating! I love all the comments here! To answer the question, I think any animal is susceptible to being treated as a mere "eye-candy" at first. You want the fluffy dog/cat because it's so darn cute, the bird because it's beautiful and it entertains you with its talking, the snake because it looks cool. There is no wrong in it, humans are designed to make decisions only by looking at things (love at first sight). 
Now, it is what you do after you fall in love with it aesthetically. Let's be honest, goldfish and bettas are the most popular fish in the hobby because they are the most vibrantly colored and with the big fins. 
I do not believe fish are decorations, or any animal for that matter. They are living beings and should be treated like it an respected. Call me a weird hippie for that I don't care.
I think it like this: they are animals you take into your care for you to love them and the looks that they provide to an area is just a plus.


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## Crash (Jul 19, 2015)

I think the problem is that fish don't necessarily bring much (in the eyes of the average person) to the table apart from looks. Cats, dogs, rodents and even reptiles exhibit companionship, which makes humans connect to them. Now most of us can claim that our fish may recognize us, perhaps even exhibit some sort of attachment to their owners, but to an average joe they just see them as pretty little emotionless things. I mean, you can't hold a fish or pet it like a cat or dog, fish don't make audible noises or anything like that either. 

Does that mean you shouldn't care for them? No. Every living creature in my opinion deserves optimal care and the least amount of suffering during it's life as possible. Not everyone sees it that way sadly.

I originally picked my betta fish based on looks, but in the end I find it better to pick based on personality. They do have them, each one is unique in it's own way. I remember picking Oshi, thinking he was kind of ugly (kings just sometimes have that super derp face cause they're so chubby), but in the end I fell in love with him and he ended up being the most beautiful fish in my eyes, sobbed just as much as I would for any of my other pets when he passed.


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## TankAddict (Apr 7, 2016)

Tbh my wee fella lives right next to my pillow and he's usually the first interaction I have with any living being of a day and the last at night so ofc I developed an emotional attachment to him and naturally want to give him good care.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

B3TT45 said:


> Let's be honest, goldfish and bettas are the most popular fish in the hobby because they are the most vibrantly colored and with the big fins.


I'm not sure that's quite true. I think much of the popularity comes from people thinking they're the easiest fish and don't need many things to survive. There are tons of equally, if not more, vibrant fish than bettas and goldfish.


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## mannyguillen (Apr 14, 2016)

while i definitely understand the keeping fish for looks idea. maybe that is part of why i like my aquarium but not really why i like my fish. does that make sense? im still in my first few months of fish keeping (other than my poor gold fish i won at a fair when i was little and lived its life in a bowl  ) and the reason i even thought to get an aquarium is because my kids wanted pets and i live somewhere that i cant have dogs or cats or hamsters or anything so i went with fish thinking it would be simple. (and boy did i learn how wrong i was)

so my fish was bought with the intent of him being a pet not a decoration, sure we want him to have a pretty home with a natural environment for us to look at and him to enjoy but his looks were just a perk

we spent a long time looking at all the fish and my girls were always drawn back to Nemo even though there were others who might have looked prettier or even similar he was the one we were making a connection to

now my 5 year old is fascinated by aquarium fish and to my surprise she is not only into bright colored "pretty" fish but also gets excited about fish that most people would consider "ugly"

so that considered i think there is much more to why we keep fish, at least in my home

for me personally also, i tend to love the underdog and have great affection for things people tend to mistreat such as black cats or "aggressive" breeds of dogs abused animals and rescues. if i can take these animals in i always will.

so id say for me a big part of what sucked me in to the hobby was seeing how terribly these animals are treated and the conditions they live in, and wanting to change that. even if i cant take all of them home and care for them all i feel like the more i can learn and share the more people will do the same and maybe one day aquarium fish will be seen as true pets

i read in the earlier posts something about a coffee table tank objectifying the fish and my weigh in on that is that it just might be practical? what if you want a nice big tank and made plenty of hides for the fish (on account that theyre so visible in such a set up) but dont have a lot of room to put one? wouldnt it be more practical to combine it to a table in the middle of the floor rather than trying to shuffle furniture and wall space

wow post came out longer than i had intended hahaha


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## blackjack (Jul 19, 2015)

I kind of agree on that. I've never understood why so many people have a problem with things like that. I've said before fish are decorative, not decorations. I'm certainly not saying anything against people who get a fish based on their looks rather than anything else. My first betta was bought that way. He was just a red Walmart veil tail, but as far as I was concerned he was absolutely gorgeous, so that's who I chose. I've always been drawn more to veil tails and crown tails above all the fancier breeds. Spooky was the only one I bought for looks though.

I've just never understood the fact that people don't see fish as living beings and treat them as objects instead. Although I think it's horrible and there's no excuse for it, some people on here have helped me understand the reason why at least a little bit.


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## xBanditcatx (Feb 2, 2016)

I did get some of my bettas based on their looks, but I've also gotten them based on personality. I've never viewed bettas as "living decorations" though. I've only ever viewed them as friends and family members. I think that they can grow a very strong connection with their owners. Maybe even one that can rival some cats and dogs.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Ah, everyone here... Nice points. AS for the "decoration", people should ask themselves -- "Would this fish look better in something like this [_] or this [____]?" The latter is bigger, needs less cleaning, and can have _more_ fish, and the first can have _one_ fish with daily water cleaning. I dunno about you guys, but I'd go for the latter... And I'd plant it, make it flourish, and make it beautiful. I want my tanks and fish to be worth my money. I don't need no crappy .5 gallon cube, which barely fits _a single leaf_ of my favorite plant.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh my god I could go on such a massive rant about this, but I'll do my best to not make it too long. I apologize in advance if I fail. Let me start by saying I love animals more than people and feel absolutely awful if I kill a bug. I absolutely detest the idea of any animal being used or thought of as decoration. They are living things and deserve to be treated as such. Just because we can't communicate adequately doesn't mean they should be used or abused by humanity because they can be. I don't believe in animals being considered lower life forms than humans and thus expendable. If anything, they have more of a right to live because they don't bring nearly the amount of death and destruction that humanity does. 

My fish are not decorations. They are family as much as my dog and cat are. I got my first betta when I was horribly depressed, and seeing animals healthy and thriving makes me extremely happy. It was this forum that made me decide to get a betta. From the start he had a heated, filtered, 5 gallon with a massive bunch of anacharis (it was all I could manage to keep alive), and good quality food (Omega One). I didn't pick him for his looks, although he is is beautiful. I picked him because of his personality. He was spunky, even in a cup so small he could hardly turn around. For over a month he's been battling a mystery illness, and I'm putting as much time and effort into curing him as I would on my cat or dog. Would it be cheaper and easier to put him down? Yes, but as long as he's still fighting to live I'm going to fight with him. My aunt didn't believe it was possible to care about a fish. She's in the boat of people that believe they're decorations. Actually getting to know my betta and his quirks and personality has made her care for him enough that she shed a few tears when he was looking his worst, and she frequently asks about his condition. 
I also got another betta around 2 months ago. I didn't get him because he was pretty. He was absolutely hideous actually, but he needed help. No one would ever choose him as a decorative fish. He's healing up and coloring up nicely, and I love him just as much as any other animal. His finnage has turned out to be primarily red, and I'm not particularly fond of red, but his looks aren't a reason to rehome him. He is family and he should be treated as such, regardless of his coloring and inability to talk or leave my nightstand.


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## Paigeyy (Sep 4, 2011)

I think the reason that fish can be sold in department stores is to do with the way they have been classified as a non-sentient being up until very recently. I studied animal welfare at university and there is a big difference between the treatment of mammals and fish as required by law. I learnt about the welfare requirements for animals used in agriculture, research and a small amount for sale in stores and restaurants. 

In research, there is a general hierarchy of animals (but of course depends on the type of research and what it's for). Often fish are used in the early stages of research because they are considered to be of less 'worth' i guess. Their perception of pain is not known, so therefore it is assumed that it isn't as great as a mammal. Therefore they can be used when the research has a low chance of being successful. Mice are most often used followed by larger mammals with primates being the most valuable. To put this in perspective, a trial using primates would use maybe a dozen animals whereas a trial using fish would roughly have 100 to 1,000 animals 

The hierarchy is based on sentience, cognition and their perception of pain. 

A sentient animal is:
1. Able to evaluate the actions of others in relation to itself and third parties
2. Remember some of its own actions and their consequences
3. Assess risk, and
4. Have some feelings and some degree of awareness

Mammals, Birds, reptiles and amphibians have been considered sentient beings for much longer than fish. So laws in some countries have not yet started to take into consideration that fish are sentient. Also even if they do take this into account, they are still not considered to be on the same level as mammals, so they will have different laws. 

Another thing that would influence the worth of the animal is it's 'value to society'. I think of 'value to society' as mostly having to do with how much outrage there would be if the animal was mistreated. If a giraffe or panda was mistreated, there would be more outrage than if a cat was mistreated, but there would be many more people upset by either of those than there would be if a fish was mistreated. 

Therefore selling a fish would be easier than selling any other animal for a department store as the laws would be less strict and there are not that many people outraged if they are seen in poor conditions.


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

You know, I first started keeping out of sympathy for one grey little fish in orange water and for a while, that's the only reason I kept fish. Because I felt sympathy for them. Personality or need was more important to me than appearance. 

I think I fell away from that when I had 12-20 of them. I brought them home mostly on the basis of appearance simply so I could have the pride of showing people my pretty fish and ended up with some pretty "cold" fish. I still cared for them, but I wasn't as engaged with them.

Admittedly, I keep now for my anxiety. Having the fish swim and interact with me is more calming than any other method. The sound of my HOB running in the living room puts me to sleep. My odessas come and rest in my hands while I replant snuffled plants. For me, that's better than just watching them swim.

Here's the way I see it. You can keep a fish as decoration in subpar conditions and just like a vase of roses it will wilt and die. Or you can keep a fish as a pet and keep the tank as decoration, in all the right conditions and just like a garden, it can live and be beautiful for years rather than days. So I keep the tanks as decoration and fish as pets c;


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## Autumncrossing (May 2, 2016)

I never really viewed fish or amphibians as particularly intelligent creatures but I'm afraid I have under estimated them in the past. Mostly because I read "expert" articles on how they aren't capable of intelligent thinking. And well I'll be honest with you when I saw one of my own newts eat his foot, sink to the bottom and panic because "oh my gosh someone has my foot!" I thought they along with fish were probably the dumbest creatures on the planet. They proved me wrong though. My husband has a friend that looks almost like him, same beard, same height, same skin and hair color etc. and my husbands newts would come up to beg for food when he approached. One day my husbands friend came over to look at the tank and the newts at first swam up to the glass but as soon as they realized it wasn't my husband they hid. I've tried this experiment multiple times with other family members with the same results... Newts are capable of facial recognition and I wouldn't be surprised if fish are too! Anyone who says these guys aren't capable of feeling pain are also very wrong. The other day while cleaning out their tank I picked one of them up and I must have gotten him by surprise because he squealed. Like actually squealed! It might have just been some air escaping but I'm not so convinced... All of the "experts" out there and documented evidence we have says that they don't make any noise! It was so loud my husband in the other room actually heard it and asked what the heck was that lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

Anyone who says reptiles don't have emotions(or at least behaviors that can equate to them) has never had a leopard gecko.
They squeal loudly if you surprise them
Squawk if they don't like how you're handling them
Excitedly wiggle their tails for food (it's like a cat pouncing, just...only the tail)

Okay, sure the noises are probably to startle predators but what purpose does tail wiggling serve? 
They don't do it every time so it's not an instinctual response. For example, mine only wiggles for waxworms. My roommate's, for crickets.


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## blackjack (Jul 19, 2015)

Right, I have a blue tongue skink. He enjoys attention and if I talk to him, he'll sometimes come out of his hiding spot and look straight up at me. I'll give him food, or just pet him, sometimes take him out with me for a while. I can hold him all day without a problem. If someone else tries he'll huff at them or try to back up out of their arms. I had him on the bed with me (he also loves wandering the floor) and he climbed up and fell asleep on me. He buried himself in the blankets once and they fell off the bed with him in them. As I said, he loves walking the floor. I don't let him often, because he gets into and under everything. Anyway, he quickly learned that if he moved the blankets a little, they would slide to the floor. Reptiles might not be as advanced as most mammals, but they aren't generally stupid.


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