# Please help... parasites, swim bladder infection or tuberculosis?



## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi,

My betta, Jingle, is having swimming problems, stays only at the surface and cannot go at the bottom of the tank. He is having a round belly, especially the right part. The left one seems normal to me. He is not constipated (on Sunday I discoverd 4 normal poops), but even so I fasted him yesterday. Even if he did not eat anything yesterday, in the evening I discovered a very suspicious poop... it was yellow. I have never seen something like that. It used to be always brown. Moreover, since Sunday (when the problems began) he has a curved spine, and a little pineconing on his belly. I am scared it could be tuberculosis or dropsy. I don't want to lose him.

On Sunday when I saw he had problems, I changed the whole water from the tank. I have never used any antibiotic on this fish and I was affraid to do it... :-( I hoped it would be better after the water change, but I was wrong.... Yesterday I decided to put some Maracyn 2. In my country we don't have it under this name, so I put a Minocycline. I calculated the dosage to be the equivalent of 10 mg per 10 gallons, for the size of my tank. 

He is still eating and in general active. This morning I fed him one pellet soaked in natural garlic juice (I was thinking it may be some nasty parastites). Or maybe it is some bacterial infection? I really don't know.... And I don't know why the poop was so yellow.... I read somewhere that yellow poop is a sign of bacterial infection, but I don't know if this is true....

I didn't put him in epsom salt because he is not constipated. Should I do it? And when is the proper time to make another water change and add mynocicline again?

Please help me. I love him very very much. After I get home I will make some photos and put them here.


Housing 
What size is your tank? 4.5 gallons
What temperature is your tank? 29 DEGREES
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Is your tank heated? YES
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? NONE

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? NLS BETTA PELLETS
How often do you feed your betta fish? 6 PELLETS IN THE EVENING, FAST THURSDAY

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? ONCE AT 2 WEEKS
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? SERA

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? NO


Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? AS DESCRIBED ABOVE
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? HE CANNOT SWIM PROPERLY
When did you start noticing the symptoms? ON SUNDAY
Have you started treating your fish? YES, WITH MARACYN 2
Does your fish have any history of being ill? YES, FIN ROT... I TRIED TO TREAT IT WITH SALT
How old is your fish (approximately) I HAVE IT SINCE 8 DECEMBER 2012. IT WAS BOUGHT FROM PET STORE. BECAUSE I BOUGHT HIM BEFORE CHRISTMAS I PUT HIS NAME JINGLE


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Here are the photos.... I cupped him in order to be easier for him to stay at the surface,


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

what do you think? It is the same fish like the one in my avatar.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Seems nobody knows.... I am very concerned it may have parasites and I am treating him with Maracyn 2 instead of Metronidazole... Does anyone know what yellow poop means? Please help me....


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Here are a few updates about Jingle... I know that nobody answered me, but I feel the need to talk to someone...

He has been on Maracyn II since June 1st. Yesterday I noticed it was a little bit more easier for him to sink at the bottom of the cup and to stay there for a few moments. He made 2 poops, one in the morning and one in the evening, both of them were normal color, but one of their ends were yellow. I was telling myself this is an improvement because the poop is not entirely yellow anymore... just one end being yellow, I was thinking it is better. This morning I found another poop which was 100% normal color, not even a piece of yellow stuff.

Even so, I am concern about my betta's health because there aren't any other improvements... He spine is still bent (I am not sure, but maybe it was more bent a few day ago, but as I sad, I'm not really sure about this), he is still a little pinecone and he still has swimming difficulties.

I'm concern he may have parasites and as far as I know Maracyn II is not for parasites... Am I right? I tried to feed him pellets soaked in natural garlic juice, but he refused to eat them. I don't know how to fool him to eat some.... He is eating normal food, but not the one soaked in garlic juice.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Here are some photos that I made yesterday evening.... Hope you don't mind, but I put also a photo of his poop... In reality it's end was more yellow than in the photo. This morning the poop was 100% normal (brown, like NLS pellets).

Can someone help me please?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm sorry we haven't been able to get around to you yet. Unfortunately, we can't be on 24/7 as people would like us to be! Trust me, if I could, I would!

But from what I'm reading at the moment and looking at your fish, he's likely infected with internal parasites. Often the blockage in his system can lead to him pooping out excessive mucus which can make it look pale or yellowish in color.

Finish up the round of Maracyn 2, never stop antibiotics in the middle of a course because you run the risk of bacteria becoming resistant to it, even though it's not helping too much, just finish it out and do a 100% water change. Follow the directions on the box for the amount of water changes you should do during the treatment, it will tell you do either do some or nothing at all while you are treating.

Then, you can get PraziPro, it contains praziquantel, a nice little antiparasite med. You can combine it with the Epsom Salt ratio of 1 tsp per gallon, this will help relax the muscles and he can push out the parasites easier when they die from the medication. Again, follow the directions on the bottle and don't stray if you can.

If you have frozen foods or can get frozen foods, I suggest you feed him either some Mysis Shrimp or Daphnia. Small copepods and freshwater shrimps are great for digestive help in carnivore fish; the exoskeleton is indigestible and acts like plant fiber to omnivore and herbivore fish; it's a laxative basically. Remember, he'll poop out the color of the food he just ate so don't be surprise if the poop starts to come out white or off white in color. I'd feed him those with maybe a pellet or two while you're treating just so he can still have some nutrients but the shrimp or daphnia will help push things along as well. You can chop off a small section of the frozen block (if you haven't used frozen foods before, they come in small cubes) and put thaw out the smaller bit in some of his aquarium water in a cup. I put the extra cubes in ziplock baggies to keep fresh in the freezer. You can keep thawed out frozen foods in the fridge for about three days of freshness, after that time, throw out because they can harbor bacterial parasites as well. This is why it's best to just chop off a small piece of the cube rather than thaw out the entire thing; you end up wasting more that way. 

Hope this helps some and definitely ask questions if you have any. I can't guarantee i'll have all the answers, but I'll certainly try!


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you very much for your response.
Jingle is the same right now... He is not lethargic, nor active like he used to be in the past.... he is just curious when I enter his room.

Can you please tell me after I finish with Maracyn 2 should it be a break before I can start the treatment for internal parasites? Or can I put the med right after I change the water? 

I was looking for praziquantel in my country, but for the moment I didn't find it. In the case I still cannot find it, what else can I use? I have Metronidazole and Levamisole at home, but they are not designed for fishes and I have to be very careful with the proper dosage if I use them. If one of them is useful, can you please tell me how to dose it? In the meantime I'm going to look more for praziquantel.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah, okay, yeah, different countries can make it hard sometimes!

You can actually use Levamisole, normally it's used for treating Camallanus worms, but you can still use it for treating regular internal parasites. Is it real Levamisole or is it Levamisole HCL? Here's a link on using it: http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamallanusTreatment/TreatmentProcedure.html


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

It is Levamisole HCl... It is written on it that every gram contains 100 mg Levamisole HCl. 

So the normal dosage is 5 grams in 100 gallons? If every gram contains 100 mg Levamisole, how can I dose it?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry, I'm terrible with math.

Found this as well, from this site: http://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1

Going by chefkeith's calculator a very small amount of levamisole powder is needed to treat a 10g tank (.076 grams, or .019 teaspoons). Now I don't know about you, but I don't own measuring devices that will enable me to accurately measure that tiny amount. Since overdosing Levamisole HCL (even massively so!) has been common practice for a long time, I generally eyeball my powder measurements into usable sizes. Since a quarter teaspoon is about 1 gram, and we need roughly one tenth of that amount for a 10g qtank treatment I do the following:

Measure a level 1/4 teaspoon onto a smooth surface. 
Take a razor blade and divide that quarter teaspoon into 10 relatively even piles. Each tiny pile is one treatment for 10 gallons.
Store each tiny pile in tiny plastic baggies (or tin foil) with a '10g' label in an opaque container. 
Not very scientific, I know. But it does get me close, and I am confident enough in the safety of the medication that I have no fear for my fish. In fact, prior to this article, I had previously treated fish with Levamisole concentrations as high as 800 mg/10 gallons and saw no negative effects.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Me too.  
What about Metronidazole? Is it ok for parasites? If so, maybe it is easier to dose it...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, it can be used for that as well. Though, is that one for fish as well or no? I know SeaChem makes one for fish specifically but that's primarily USA. You can google it to find some better answers than I can give.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Unfortunately Metro that I have is not for fish either.  We have only a few meds here and they are hard to find. Do you know the right dose of metronidazole for betta?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

What brand is it? I can't do a thing unless I know that since each medication is different. You can do a google search with the brand name and 'metronidazole for fish' and something should come up for you. 

Going back to the Levamisole, if you follow the directions above, it's really not that hard. You just split 1/4 of a teaspoon into 10 piles and then split the pile again to get roughly a 5 gallon dosage, that's what you'd use on your fish.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

The metro that I have it is designed for human. It contains 5 grams per liter of metronidazole.

I also find a product that contains praziquantel and I think I can get it tomorrow. It is designed for fish... It is called Sera tremazol.

This means I can use any of this meds. Which do you think is the best one?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The Praziquantel will be less stressful for the fish, but the Levamisole knocks everything out. It's up to you and how you think he's feeling. Don't combine meds of course, at least, not these ones.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't know what to do... I am affraid of levamisole because it is not designed for fish and I am affraid not to overmedicate. But on the other hand the product is more efficient than prazi. Should I also combine levamisole with epsom salt? How many days should it be from the end of Maracyn 2 treatment until I start the antiparasitic one?

Poor little Jingle... I am so sad to see him this way


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can actually overmedicate Levamisole, we do it all the time.

Just start with the Prazi when you can get it, don't mix with epsom salt on any of these except the Prazi, that one is safe to do that. 

You can give him about 3 day's of rest off the med.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you so much for the useful info... I really hope Jingle can make it. He looks so skinny  He is a little pinecone... I'm affraid he may get worse in these 3 days without med and the parasite can lead to dropsy... Is there any chance to start the parasitic treatment sooner? He made 3 poops today... one has a yellow extremity, like the one in the photos.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

I forgot to ask you.... Which is the best temperature to keep him now?

Also, I noticed a few days ago that he was having some clear/white stuff on his body, like very very short hair... Is it his slime coat? These appeared after he got ill, this is why I was thinking it is his slime coat. Unfortunately it is impossible to get a photo of this stuff, being so small.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, that's his slime coat shedding off, that's normal for ill fishes or fishes who are being treated.

Anywhere from 26-28 is fine.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Good morning.

Thank you for giving me so useful advice. Jingle is doing the same today... He was still sleeping when I enterd his room this morning (I keep the light in his room almost off in this period, not to stress him) but woke up immediately after and came to greet me. He is so friendly and never scared of me, not even when I change his water.  Poor little thing.... I hate to see him suffering and I really hope he can make it.

I decided to go with Levamisole after I finish the Maracyn 2 treatment (it really seems useless, unfortunately) and let him 3 days in water only. Hope his condition will not get worse in that period....

Regarding food, I'm affraid to give him the frozen food that we have here because in the past many of my bettas and other fishes got ill everytime I used it. I don't think it's safe. We have so many bad products here... Even when it comes to pellets you can only buy from pet store brands like Tetra, Sera and JBL, full of wheat. I search for NLS Betta pellets a very long period of time (I lost many bettas in that period) and I had to cross half country in order to get it from someone who has been to US. I'm really really affraid to give him anything else.

Speaking about the food, as I told you, I tried to give him pellets pre-soak in garlic juice, but he refused to eat. He really doesn't like garlic. I know NLS cannot be soaked, but I was telling myself maybe a little amount of garlic will stay on them. I tried to fool him.... I put in a new plastic cup some water (without chlorine, of course) and add the garlic juice and mix them. Then I added the pellets and after I kept there for 15 min I gave them to Jingle and he ate them. He seemed suspicious a little bit and I was affraid he might spit them, but I distracted his attention. lol Is it good that I fed him this thing? Or the pellets will lose all their nutrients? What do you think?

I wanted to ask you more about Levamisole. I don't have such a scale at home, but I have syringes so I can measure the milliliters. In one of the link you gave me it was written that the dosage of Levamisole HCL should be 2.36 mg per litre. Jingle's tank has 18 litres so this means I should put a total of 42.48 mg Levamisole HCL. The powder that I have contains 10% Levamisole HCL, being written on it that every gram contains 100 mg Levamisole HCL. If 1 gram has 100 mg Levamisole HCL and I need 42.48 mg Levamisole HCL, then I need 0.4248 g from that power (almost 1/2 grams). Am I right? 

Then, I can put 100 mg from Levamisole HCL (found in 1 g of powder - which represent a quarter teaspoon, as you said) in 100 ml water and then take with a syringe 42.48 ml and put it inside the tank. I don't know if my calculation is right... What do you think? In gallons, the proper dose of Levamisole it is written to be 9 mg/gallon.

On the article it is written that this dose is for 24 h and after a 70%-100% water change is needed. Also, the treatment should be repeated after 5-7 days only. So betta should be kept only 24 h in this water? And then put in clear dechorinated water, without any med? I'm confused because I have never used a med on such a short period of time.... 

Also, I have read that high water temperature intensifies the activity of Levamisole and that tank temperature around 75°F is best for treatment. Is it ok for bettas? Seems cold... What temperature did you keep your bettas during the Levamisole treatment?

And one last question, on the article it was written that Levamisole is ineffective for Cestodes (tapeworms) and Trematodes (flatworms or flukes) and that this need Praziquantel and Formalin for treatment. How can I know which type of parasite Jingle might have? There is no fish vet specialist here.... Jingle hasn't white poop, just yellowish, he is not constipated, but he cannot go at the bottom of the tank and his spine is bent. I hope Levamisole can kill most types nasty parasites. You seem to have a good experience with it...

Sorry for asking so many question, but I really want to make everything I can for my little Jingle. He is my favourite betta ever. I know he is old but, I have another betta who is about the same age and he is doing very very well.... He is big and beautiful. I should have know that Jingle might have parasites because he was always eating like a piggy, just like the other betta, but he was tiny and skinny...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

NLS can be soaked, just not for extended periods of times. You can soak it in the garlic juice for a few minutes, but NLS already has garlic in it so it's really not necessary to do unless you want to; the extra won't hurt him at all.

Yeah, your math looks correct from here if I'm following it correctly!

And yeah, 75 isn't too cold for them at all. 70 and below is getting chilly, my Betta's routinely stay around 74-78 anyway.

Unfortunately, we can't tell what parasite your boy has, it's just one of those things that you have to give your best educated guess on and go with it. Levamisole will kill a bunch of things at least and if after the normal two week period, your boy isn't better, than we can try out the Praziquantel to get rid of the bugs that Levamisole couldn't get at. But don't beat yourself up, there is no way to say exactly when he got the parasites unless you took him to a vet. I'm not vet myself, but there's no sense in blaming yourself since this can literally happen to anyone, new fish keepers and old fish keepers alike!


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Look what I have found... some very small and thin white things at the bottom of the tank. Are they parasites? I didn't start the treatment with Levamisole yet, Jingle is in clear water right now. I only gave him pellets soaked in garlic juice. I have never seen this kind of stuff...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Nope, those are detritus worms. They pop up when there is extra nutrients and stuff in the water, they're very harmless and good free live food for your fish lol.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Lol... Good to know they are harmless.  Meanwhile, I keep reading info about worms, levamisole etc.... I'm a little confused because in one of the links you gave me it was written that the water with Levamisole should be changed in day 3 and the treatment should be repeted after 3 weeks, while on the other link it was written that water with Levamisole should be changed after 24 h and the treatment should be repeted after 5-7 days. Which one is correct?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah, yeah, the dosing of Levamisole is a little different for everyone since it's obviously not "made" for fish so there are no universal instructions. I would follow the 24H one since these are smaller fish, the 3 day one I feel should be for bigger fish. That's not science, just a hunch I have and that's how we used it at least. It's used once a week for one day, for 3 weeks.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for the info, Linaugrim. Jingle is now in Levamisole (2.36 mg/l). I slowly acclimated him, but he seems kinda stressed.... He is breathing normally, but his fins are clamped and he is staying in a corner. Definitely he was more active today before I put him in the med. I keep an eye on him.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, medications can be harsh. That's why we try to make them as comfortable as we can; keeping the tank dark, feeding them well if they'll eat, use vitamins if you have them or probiotics, things like that.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Should I add some vitamins to the water now? Or after the Levamisole cure? I have Sera Fishtamin.... What about probiotics? I don't know anything about them... Can you give me please some examples of good probitics which I can use for my betta?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, you can add the vitamins now if you have them.

Probiotics are a little more expensive though, and I really don't know what's available in your country. You'll have to do some searching online since I seriously doubt they'll be stocked in stores around, they don't even do that here. To be honest with you, I've never had to actually use probiotics so I don't even know any brands, but one of our members; logisticsguy uses them routinely. He's in Canada though so the brands are bound to be different. But you can PM him and see if he has any more advice for you


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

The 24 h are gone so I took out the med and put Jingle back in normal water. He seems to be the same, but on the bottom of the tank I noticed there were again those white worms. I cleaned everything with hot water and I decided to lower the water level. He is still having swimming difficulties when trying to go to bottom of the tank. It seems like he is having a life jacket or something... :-? 

After a few hours I decided to entertain Jingle a little bit and while he was moving, something strange fell to the bottom of the tank. A small piece of somethimg, honestly I have no idea what this is, covered in a some white stuff... It is red-brown, something like that. :shock: I don't know were it came from...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Could be some minute piece of poop or something from him. Hard to say honestly :-/


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah... I think I'm starting to overreact.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Taking into account that he has swimming problems, should I use the epsom salt? What do you think?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I do think you should use it. Just acclimate him very carefully to it, he's very fragile at the moment due to the meds and his condition.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Unfortunately Jingle is doing worse today...  He is very lethargic, moving just when I draw his attention.  It seems that one of his eyes is a little bit cloudy...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Poo, I'm sorry :-( I wasn't all that certain he'd make it in the first place anyway. It was worth it to give him a shot anyway. Keep his tank dark for the most part, you can also keep the waterline lowered as well so he doesn't have to travel so far for air. Lots of fake plants will help him rest when he wants to as well.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

I've just came home from work and went to check on Jingle.... He is sleeping on a side, just like he had slept since he's ill. It looks so painful and it is so hard to see him this way... I lost my hope today and I cannot stop crying even if I know that my husband will come home very soon and I don't want him to see me like that... I always knew that oneday I'll have to say goodbye to my little Jingle, I knew it will be hard, but I didn't know how hard... He was the friendliest betta I ever had, he always greeted me and was always in action, swimming back and forth. I'm broken to see him like this, knowing that most probably he won't make it...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm sorry :-( I wish I could help more, but I think he was too far along when we first started this. Again, I'm real sorry about him, but it sounds like you've really given him a wonderful life though. That's how I think about it: not so much that it's a fishy death, but that the fish has taught me a lot whether through life in general or more about the aquarium hobby. It's such a big hobby and there's so much to learn and so much to appreciate, but all deaths can be hard, I know that. 

If you like to, and want a nice burial after everything happens, you can put him in a potted plant. I did that for the boy in my avatar; Rembrandt, he was a very special fishy much like Jingle. He resides in my Spider plant and Dragon's Tongue pot in my bedroom  It's a nice thing that you can do if you'd like to. I'm also obsessed with indoor plants so it was nice to be able to combine them, when one thing dies; it can give life to another


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, I decided to give him 2 pellets taking into account that yesterday I fast him. So I put Jingle in a cup to make it easier to feed him. To my surprise, when he noticed I was going to feed him, he started to swim and became very interested. I gave him one pellet, he ate it in a matter of seconds, then I put another pellet that when to the bottom. I decided to let that pellet there and I gave Jingle another one that was eaten very very quickly. I took him some photos because I noticed that a string of brown and yellow poop was hanging from him in order to show you, then I went to bathroom to wash my hands again because I was going to put him inside his tank. When I came back, the pellet from the bottom of the tank was gone. :shock: It was a really nice surprise to see that he is having such an appetite even in these moments. He always loved his food. 

So, talking about the photos, here it is... what do you think? He is in Epsom Salt.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

GOOD!!! good good good!! Yellow/brown poop is great! He's pushing out the left over mucus and had enough food in him to poop that out too! That's good! Okay, don't want to get your hopes TOO high, but that's really good! Definitely keep him in the Epsom Salt for now then. :-D


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you for helping me so much. I really appreciate it. He is now back inside his tank where I put a silk plant. He is resting on it. Should I keep his room in complete dark or let a little bit of light?


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Wow, I'm sooooo happy to hear this is good news.  I was also happy he ate the pellet from the bottom of his cup, even if I was planning to give him just two pellets.  When should I feed him next and how many pellets? What do you think?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Feed him what he'll take, you can spread it out through the day and just give him one or two pellets three or four times a day if he'll take it. That will give him some extra strength!

Yeah, keep him in all darkness to begin with, that will help him rest up.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

So 1-2 pellets 3-4 a day. Sounds like a lot of food, but taking into account the way he ate today, I'm pretty sure he would like to eat the entire NLS box lol. It's almost 6PM here, some kinda late, so maybe I'll feed him just another pellet later today and tomorrow in the morning, 7AM, I'll give him another two.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, that should be fine. If he doesn't take it then of course take it out, if he eats; great!


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks so much Lilnaugrim for giving me so much good advice. I really don't know what I would do without you. And I wanted to tell you before that I'm sorry about Rembrandt loss. I was so sad in those moments that I couldn't read the entire message right then. Bettas are wonderful creatures, it is normal to love them and care about them. They even create addiction. You buy one and then need more.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Aww, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you more sad with that! Remmy's memory still lives on though  he was with me for a good two and a half years. He certainly was the start of my addiction! I breed and keep them now ^_^


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Oh, don't worry, you didn't make me more sad. It was just a tough day for me. I also keep in mind beautiful memories of my past bettas. Meanwhile, I fed Jingle another pellet this evening. He ate it really really quickly and then tried to jump out of the cup twice, asking for more food. He seems so hungry poor fishy...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah good! Well yeah, if he wants a few more, you can certainly give him a couple more. I only suggested low amounts a few more times a day since it seemed like that's all he'd eat. But by all means, if he's willing to eat, definitely give it to him. You can then just feed twice a day if you like and feed upwards of 3-5 pellets each time. You'll want to feed him more since he needs all the strength he can get right now, so more food = more energy that he can use to help clear out whatever infection or parasites might be lurking in him.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Good, then in the morning I'll feed him a couple more. Poor Jingle... :-(


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Wanted to ask you something... I put inside the tank his favourite decoration, a castle. Before that, I boiled it for 30 min to kill bacteria or parasites and then washed it well with hot and then cold water. It is now in his tank, but because I lowered the water level the castle is not full covered by water. Everytime I remove the cover of the tank I fell a bad smell, why? The water was changed yesterday.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmm, do you have gravel in the tank right now?

Does it smell like rotten eggs at all? Or something else?


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, like rotten eggs. No gravel and I remove filtration also when I lowered the water level.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

So, I fed Jingle again this morning. He ate very fast and he fooled me again with some pellets sank at the bottom of the cup lol.... so that he ate 6 pellets and then asked for more, instead of 4 like I was planning to give him. Then I let him a few minutes more inside the cup to see what he is doing and noticed that 3 times he went to the bottom of the cup and stayed there for more than 30 seconds each time. Until today he definitely couldn't do this. I don't know what to say, I prefer to stay realistic and I am aware he may not make it.... And each time it was him the one who decided to go back at the surface, keeping his head up, in normal position. 

I don't want to overreact again, but when he was inside the cup I noticed that he had some very small brown thing that was coming out of his gill everytime he breathed. Very very small. I couldn't make any photo. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the biggest problems that he has right now are internal, not caused by gill flukes or something... and he is breathing normally.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It could be the water becoming stale inside the decoration. Can you tilt it on it's side so it's fully covered? Doesn't look as nice, but at least it's still be there and no air bubble inside the top of it to create that smell.

That's good though, it's progress at least and that's what we're looking for. Keep him in the Epsom Salt and if he's still doing well but is ill by next week, you can do another Levamisole dose and continue with the Epsom Salt another week after.

What you're seeing is excess food being excreted. It's kind of like when crumbs fall on you when you're eating something like chips or bread; the fish chews the few and sometimes a bit of it escapes through the gills, that's pretty normal


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

I've just fed him this evening. He ate very good, but he seems to be having swimming problems again :-( couldn't stay at the bottom of the cup and made efforts to get there. What can I say, at least I know that he is still in power. The thing in his gill is still there even now and even if he breathed very fast (he got tired when he went to the bottom). Shouldn't have been gone already? He is having so many problems... poor fishy :-(


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh, it is inside his gill? Not falling out? Sorry, I misinterpreted. Where is it located? On the side? Bottom?


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Sorry, I probably didn't explain it very well because of my English.  When he inhales it is in, then it is coming out while he exhales and so on. You can see it if you look at him from above. And it is like a very thin and short string with some very small brown things on it. But it is not dark brown like NLS food. But it is so small and hard to catch on camera because you cannot see it only when he exhales. Moreover Jingle's natural color on his head make it even more difficult to see it. If it wouldn't have been moving, I may not even observed it. Anyway, if he would have flukes I guess that would not cause him bent spine, raised scales and buoyancy problems. What do you think?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah, what you're seeing is the gill flap, the membrane that pokes out when they flare like on this boy, you can see it sticking out a little bit:









Don't be offset by the color though, each fish has a different beard color according to regular colors. Usually they are dark but can be cellophane (see through), yellow, orange, and red. This boy is a nice dark chocolate color:










Good example of a yellow









So anyways, when they breathe if you look close, you can see the membrane inside of the gill plate. Sometimes it sticks out more than others but it's nothing to worry about.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

No, it is not his beard  his beard is black and he used to flare so much when he was healthy. He was so beautiful in those moments. This is something else. Something which wasn't there before. Or at least I didn't noticed it, which I doubt it... in all these years.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmm, I'm not so sure :-/


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Good morning, Lilnaugrim.  Well, whatever he had at his gill yesterday, today I couldn't see it anymore. Maybe it was some excess food, like you said. I changed his water today and added again the epsom salt. I'm now slowly acclimating him. I noticed he managed to go under the water and entered the castle this morning, like in good times. Anyway, he seems so weak and sensitive. He is eating very well and I hope this will give him enough power to fight with this. I gave him 4 pellets this morning, 2 of them soaked in garlic. He ate everything. On Thursday he made 3 poops, all of them were having yellow mucus in big quantities, but yesterday he made 2, the 1st one was still having a little bit of mucus while the 2nd was normal. I hope this is a good sign, but I don't know what to say, because last week after he made some normal poops the mucus reappeared.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Update: Jingle is much more active in its new water than it was yesterday or two days ago. I decided to remove the castle when I did the water change, just as a precaution. I will add some more fake plants later today.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Awesome, glad he pooped at least, it's a sign he's still functioning at least.

You may want to skip this coming week's dose of Levamisole and do it the following week if he's still weak but is getting better.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, he is pooping normally so I'm glad he's working properly inside. Even if he has fake plants and the castle (I put it back again) he prefers laying on one side most of the time when he is resting. Otherwise, he is staying in normal position. And if I go to his room and see me, he become alert, even if he was staying on a side til then. So he still has SBD and he is unable to go down, but at least I see him more agile. Can you tell me how much should I keep him in Epsom?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can keep him on the Epsom for 14 days and then give him a week's break or at least 5-7 day's roughly unless you find that after taking him off it, he's worse again. There is a potential for ES to dehydrate the fish, which is why we only do 2 weeks at a time.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for giving me so much help.  After yesterday water change Jingle seems to be more lethargic today, even if I acclimated him more than 2 hours. He started to be like that imediately after the water change. He ate his breakfast today, he pooped again, without any mucus, but he is so thin and fragile, like he hasn't any power. I don't know why the water change stressed him or what happened. I keep him in all dark right now and I hope he can rest. What do you think? If he continue to be like that, should I remove the Epsom?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It's a change in mineral levels, not just the water. The water contains everything from metals, to minerals, to nutrients. Sometimes they can build up and then when you change the water, the mineral levels change as well, generally dropping if it's a non-planted tank. So that's probably what is making him feel not so great.

Yes, you can take the ES out and see if he continues to poop normally, hopefully he does! I'd give him another day or two or more before you did another change though, you don't want to stress him out too much more, too quickly.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, I changed his water today in order to remove the epsom. He wasn't stressed at all when I acclimated him, swimming left and right and looking at me. Now that I put him back in the tank he seems stressed again. I'm not going to change the water again too soon, I just wanted to remove the Epsom. When do you think would be appropriate to make a change and what procent should I change? Now that the water level is lowered he is staying in 5.6-5.8 liters, no filter. Poor fishy... I thought it would be some good idea to add some vitamins, but I noticed they expired in 2013. Unfortunately I used them a few days ago as I didn't know this. Also, I wanted to ask you if it is normal to see again two detritius worms after an hour I changed the water and cleaned everything.. And I didn't feed him Jingle after the water change.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, detritus worms can pop up at any time, they don't really have a "schedule" to follow or anything.

Oh, yeah, not sure what the vitamins would do if expired, I don't think they'd do much harm though.

He should be fine for a week about since he's not producing so much ammonia at the moment. You can also spot clean with a turkey baster, if you have one of those. You can get them at grocery stores with the kitchen utensils, easy to siphon out the obvious poop that way to keep ammonia down. And then you can do a larger change later on. Or, if you have airline tubing, the small stuff, you can use that to clean out the bottom of the tank and just replace about 10% of the water, that would be good too and then do a full water change every two weeks or so if you do a 10% change about twice a week.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

The water schedule sounds good. I think I'm going to buy some new vitamins because I'm afraid to use the expired ones and also they might be useless. And he really needs all the strengths right now. I'm really wondering what this is.... It didn't heal with Maracyn 2, nor with Levimasole. And Jingle seems so weak after so many days since his illness has begun... There were days when he seemed better followed by other days when he was worse and then better again the next day and so on. It is really strange. I think he is also stressed and weak after so many water changes and meds, but I don't know in what percent these influence his condition or it is the illness that makes him to be like that. He was an extremly active fish, always swimming and coming to me from the moment I opened the door of his room. Seeing him so weak right now is really hurting. Today he is a little bit more active than it was yesterday after the water change, he greeted me in the morning and swam a little bit at the surface. In the last few days I didn't even see him trying to go at the bottom of the water, just swimming at the surface. But this is definitely better than the days when he was laying on a side, unmoved. Probably feeling so weak he doesn't even trying to go at the bottom. Today is his fasting day, but I'm asking if this would not make him even weaker. He is pooping normally, found 2 poops this morning, without any mucus. Here is a photo from yesterday. Notice how thin he is... His spine is not so bent like it was.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, keep feeding him; no fasting.

And yes, medications will make him lethargic and not feeling well; it's kind of like they have to get worse to get better. Strange, I know, but that's how meds work; they're harsh on the system.

Keep in mind, he is still old, so it could be a combination of he's old, and parasites or an infection. Old fish just don't have the same type of energy that young ones do, 3 years is getting up there for a Betta too.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

He ate like a little piggy some NLS soaked in garlic. Maybe garlic can boost his immune system while working for parasites too. You are right, he is old and even meds don't have the same efficiency when it comes to elders. Hope clean water and low light can help him. Poor fishy...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yes, garlic is fantastic about that. It's natural anti-parasitic, not like a medication, but it can help to prevent at least when used all the time  And yes, it's also good at stimulating their pallet, and boosting their immune system. Garlic is really great!


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, and it's natural garlic, cultivated by me in the garden. If so, I'll start using it for my other betta too as a precaution. By the way, my other betta is huge compared to Jingle. It was a rescue and they are about the same age. Meanwhile, Jingle is much more active now that he ate. He does that after every meal.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Is the other Betta a Veiltail? They tend to be a little bigger while CT's tend to be smaller :dunno: just genetics. 

NLS already has garlic in them though, so it's not always needed at every meal, you every now and then, it's good to throw in some fresh garlic


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

He is also a CT. A verrrryyy lazy CT actually.  His behaviour is pretty strange for a betta. He doesn't bother to swim too much, he rather sleeps on a side at the surface then to go and hide inside some decoration. He never built a bubble nest and when he is flaring (only when he see my husband lol) he doesn't show his beard, only open his gills. I haven't seen him properly flaring never. At the beginning I thought he might be ill or something so I kept an eye on him, but now are years since he has been acting the same lol. My husband loves him because he is so funny. Was the same size as Jingle when I got him, but in time he grew up. It may be just genetics or maybe Jingle have had some internal issues since long time ago or I don't know what to believe. Maybe because Jingle was so active and the other one was so lazy, he couldn't put any weight on him or I don't know...


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Hello, 

I wanted to make an update on Jingle's condition.  A few days ago I've noticed some red blood dots on top of his fins. His condition was pretty bad, but still eating. I got scared thinking about septicemia so while searching on net some information about meds, I decided to use Metronidazole. I've chosen this med and not kanaplex because I read somewhere that kanamycin is not active inside the intestine of the fish (or something like that). The mucus from its poop also made me think it may be something bad inside its intestines... So being desperately, I put Metronidazole (200 mg per 10 gall). In a few hours all red dots vanished. In the next morning when I woke up Jingle was sleeping on the bottom of the tank. I thought he was dead. Finding him alive, I was impressed about the fact that he was able to stay at the bottom. That day after a discution with a vet (specialized on guppy) I added a small portion of a pill that contains praziquantel and pyrantel (along with metro). He was in that mix for about 12 hours. Today I changed the water, added metro again (200 mg per 10 gall) and let him there for another 12 hours. Then I put him in normal water and the good news is that his spine is not bent anymore and his scales are far more less raised. He is weak, but he is active. He wasn't like that for a very long period of time. Hope he can recover....


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Good!! I'm so glad that worked!! Yeah, I am a fan of the Praziquantel, so glad the vet could advise you! And glad Jingle is feel better now too ^_^


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you Lilnaugrim for all the useful advice. You were right about parasites.  It seems Levamisole didn't work at all... don't know why...

The treatment applied was a little tricky because the pill also contained an ingredient called Pyrantel and the vet said that it is not used in fish meds (the pill was not designed for fish, but it was the only one available at that moment). I will be a fan o prazi from now on too.  It is a very good med to have it at home, just in case, because you don't know when you need it and it is a pity to wait so many days until you can get it. Parasites can make so ugly things... :shock: By the way, yesterday I received my order so now I have at home a prazi product designed for fish, called JBL Gyrodol Plus 250.

The problem that I have now with Jingle is the fact that this morning he refused to eat, even that he seems more dynamic, he didn't even tried his food. Also, he is a little affraid of me (it never happened before).... It is like he has some power now and he is running away from me. Is he stressed? Or is it still the illness that make him not to eat? What do you think? He is definitely looking better, but his appetite is gone... Or maybe the meds decreased his appetite?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It might just have not been the right medication is all. Even in humans, sometimes it takes a little trial and error to find the right medication. Of course, that doesn't always help causes, but it's what we have to do unfortunately, and because I'm not with you guys and can't take samples and stuff like a vet can, it makes it harder to help out sometimes 

Medications are hard on the system, so he's likely just feeling the affects from the meds which can make him not hungry and a little skittish. I would just keep his tank dark when you can and try not to disturb him too much. You can still try to feed of course and be around him, just try not to do big sudden movements to scare him. It may be a few days until he eats again, but keep trying and remove what he doesn't eat  Since he's been eating fairly well the past couple day's, going a few days without food isn't going to hurt him much now.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for your quick reply.  I'm really happy he feels better. In the last couple of days he was looking so bad and suffering that I felt I couldn't do it anymore... I really love this fishy and want to give him a good life. Hopefully, he will start eating again soon taking into account that he was always my hungriest betta. He is still affraid of me, it's like he believes I wanted to poison him with so many med and now he's too scared even to eat lol. I let him 3 pellets before I went to the office this morning and it seems that one of them is missing.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, I've just fed him... If I put his food next to his mounth, he is eating now. I tried to do this in the morning, but he refused. So he ate 4 pellets now.  I think this is pretty good. Wanted to ask you something... I've noticed that sometimes he open his mounth bigger and spit something white... I don't know what this is, but I remember that he started to do this a few month ago after he woke up. I mean he was sleeping inside the tower of its castle and in the moment he was coming out he was spitting the same white stuff before going to gasp some air. At that moment from what I read on internet I was thinking he just ate too much... Is it true? It is something like a ball of stringy stuff. I don't want to be paranoiac again, but I'm curious if indeed this is caused by overfeeding.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmm I have no idea. I doubt it's food, food retains it's color; brown or orange/brown depending on your food. Have you looked inside the castle lately? It's not peeling paint at all, is it? Never heard this one before; spitting out white stuff.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, sounds strange. I didn't see it at any other bettas, nor at other fishes. The castle is not inside the tank now and he is still spitting that so it is not the paint. My husband also noticed that stuff about a month ago and he ask me if I use napkins when I clean his tank because Jingle was spitting some. I don't know if it means something or it is just overfeeding.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

What do you think? Does this poop look like he has parasites? It is kinda white-light yellow, something like that. Also, if you look closely, there is another one that has a small white edge...


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah the whitish one is due to parasites still, they're looking better though. As long as they're solid then it's generally a good sign


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Poor little fishy... This means I'll have to treat him again with prazi. He has been in water only since Monday. He seems less stress this way. When should I put the med in order to be ok? I wanted to give him a break after so many meds, as long as possible.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can give him a few more day's I'd say. You might ask the vet though since I don't know exactly how to dose that medication s/he gave you, it might want to wait longer or something.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, it's better to ask her. I'm gonna do that tomorrow.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi,

I wanted to share my happiness with you: today I free Jingle from its quarantine box (he had its second praziquantel dose) and he is now swimming peacefully in its tank, without having any swimming problems.  I turned of the filter, not to bother him. It is amazing to see him again like that and it makes me so so happy!  It is true that he used to be more active (he was super active in the past) but I consider this to be a huge step. I think it is time now to focus on some other issues: he became very thin and his fins used to broke. I don't know if it is fin rot or not, I used to find pieces of fins inside the quarantine box. They stopped falling when he became better, but they are not growing back either. Maybe I should wait more and hopefully they will start growing. He was having some fin rot even before its illness. Also, he usually miss its food and I'm helping him to eat. He had some cloudiness on one eye, but just a little bit and it is almost gone now. Maybe all this issues are age related too. Anyway, he is sooooo much better... And I hope, if God helps, he will get rid of these issues too.  I think his little body needs a period of time until he will be able to become strong again.

I'm thinking to add the castle again, but I'm not sure if it's ok because it hadn't been on praziquantel, just washed with hot water and dried for more than a week... Maybe even two... I don't remember. 

It is amazing to see him going at the bottom of its tank without any sign of problems (it has 30 cm height). You were right that every fish teaches you something and that in aquaculture you always learn new things... Even now it is hard for me to believe that I lost a so young betta, which was supposed to have a strong immune system, while Jingle who is old had survived, but the diseases were different. I hope that Jingle will get even better and to be as active as he was in the past.  I made a few photos of him today. I'm gonna add some later.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Great! I'm glad he's doing better now ^_^ Sounds like he was biting his fins off if you found fin on the floor of the tank, if it were rot; you wouldn't see any of that at all.

You can add the castle if it's been dried for that long, that would kill all parasites on it.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Here are the photos.  The ones in the quarantine box are from yesterday. I don't think he was biting his fins because all of them are affected, including the ventral ones and for sure he couldn't bite them. I also added a photo with him from the past (2014). The one in the avatar is with him too, in 2012, before I bought him. He changed his colours meanwhile. He always had really beautiful fins. :-D So what do you think about his fins? I think it's better to let him a few weeks in order for his liver to recover. Is it ok? Maybe in this time his fins will start growing back... Or should I try treating them sooner? Don't know what to do... :roll:


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You'd be surprised at what fins they can reach lol. But all the same, let him rest for a couple weeks now before doing anything drastic again. The fins will heal on their own with time and good water. Older fish will take longer to heal, so don't feel frustrated if it's been a few weeks and they haven't done much. Only worry if they get shorter again.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Alright then  I'm gonna let him to enjoy his tank and castle for a few weeks and hopefully his fins will heal with clean and warm water only during this time. They weren't getting any shorter since he had been feeling better, which is good.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Wanted to ask you if I should start fasting him again one day per week. While he was ill I stopped doing that. He still looks thin, but he is active and seems healthy.  Here is a video I made a few day ago:

http://s12.photobucket.com/user/andreeadodea/media/VID_20150709_215154_zpsl4lnhr16.mp4.html


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

He's going to be thin no matter what, old fish always are. But you can fast him for one day, that won't hurt  He does look pretty active for an old fishy! Especially for what he went through


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks, Lil  
Yeah, it's surprising how active he is and how quickly his condition improved. :-D And he is also flaring a lot more than in the weeks prior to his disease. Every morning he wakes up at the first ray of light and starts swimming happily back and forth. He is acting like a young fishy and I'm so so happy about it. :-D


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, this evening I found a poop half brown half white. Otherwise, he is doing amazing, no other symptom. He is full of energy, eating well and flaring. Should I give him Praziquantel again? The problem is that Saturday evening I should go to another country and I won't be back until Monday or Tuesday night, so I won't be able to make any water changes when I should do. Also, I don't want to leave him at home with meds in his tank but I'm also affraid that without meds his problems may reappear. What would you do if you were in my place?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I would hold off, it could just be due to some stress.


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## SharkyTheBetta (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for quick reply. . Yep, it might be because I changed his water today. I will wait for now..


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