# Veiltail breeders



## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi, I'm new. I don't know if this is the right forum, but is seems the most accurate.

Is there anyone (Especially in the USA) who breeds/sells dragonscale veiltails? I would love to find a male, especially in black! 

On a more topic related note, relative to other animals, how difficult is it to breed bettas? I breed chickens for show, and have a weakness for anything that can be described with 'complex genetics'. Bettas are so pretty, it's hard not to want to get involved! I'll admit though, some of the 'how to breed' threads look daunting compared to my chicken hobby.

But it would be really nice to do something other then knit all winter. :-D


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

HI, welcome to the forum. Betta keeping/breeding is addictive, so beware 

Getting them to spawn is easy. Raising the fry to adult is the real challenge. Since it involves investment and dedication (tank, supplies, and energy), I wouldn't suggest it for mere experience unless you already have the tanks. It is rewarding though to watch them grow and color up to adulthood.

You don't really need to know about their genetics if you don't cross breed different fin types nor work with complex colors. But it is always a good idea to know of their genetic background since it will influence the outcome (fin and color) of offspring. Read the stickies (genetic and form breeding) and ask as many questions as you can think of. We are all here to help.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

It's not so much "difficult", process wise, as sometimes they just refuse to breed and raising the fry takes a lot of work with the water changes and frequent feedings and what not.
Genetics wise, there is LOT of free information out there and people are always happy to answer questions.

The only dragon vailtail I know of for sale is in Australia and they won'r ship out side Australia.

That could be something for you to work on, youself, though. You can buy a black dragon HMPK like this:
 or HM.
and, say, a blue female(most 'female betta' you find at petstores are vailtails unless stated otherwise).

you should get some partial dragons(you may get lucky and some may have full coverage) and then breed the best two fry together.


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks for the welcome guys!

Doubt I'll be breeding bettas anytime soon, but I might just spend some time collecting things I would need. 

Are there any North American breeders who work with high quality veiltails? Even pet store stock are surprisingly hard to find where I am. It seems all the LFS get their fish from the same place, all red/blue crowntails. My veiltail male is from a few states away- Pity purchase on a family trip.


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

I only know 2 Dragon Scale Veiltails and one belongs to Huffle Puffle, and I own one. 
Atm, I'm not up to breeding, and I don't think Huffle Puffle is a breeder, but you could always ask her! 

Best of luck, hope you find the VT you've been searching for.


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## Beezu (Mar 9, 2013)

Noctiluca said:


> But it would be really nice to do something other then knit all winter. :-D


theres more to life than yarn crafting??

btw, are you on Ravelry? =D


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## Vier (Feb 1, 2012)

There has to be SOME photos of dragonscale veiltails right?


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

He hasn't finished marbling yet, and his Dragonscales aren't AS prominent, but he's a DSVT. 




























And here's Huffle Puffles' DSVT.


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

Beezu said:


> theres more to life than yarn crafting??
> 
> btw, are you on Ravelry? =D


I hadn't heard of it, looks neat!



Mar said:


> He hasn't finished marbling yet, and his Dragonscales aren't AS prominent, but he's a DSVT.
> 
> http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa457/Marredd/Fish/Marine/DSC02890_zpsd9d3874e.jpg
> 
> ...


Beautiful fish, thanks for sharing. Who would've thought they'd be so hard to find?


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

^ I know what you mean. Can't even find any on google.
When I first bought him, we had no clue he was a DS. So I guess
I lucked out xD


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

Definitely lucky!

So, given that I have a multicoloured male, crossing with a black dragonsale female would work reasonably well, right? (...I only ask because there are two up on Aquabid right now.)


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

You probably won't get any black dragons in the first generation. But you should get some partial dragons. You can always breed sibling together from the spawn, or back to the mother though. 
Out of curiosity what girl are you looking at?

------
For those looking for a picture of another dragon scale VT(still missing a few scales):
 
this is the boy I mentioned the other day.

there is another partial dragon for sale right now, probably from the same spawn, but it's also Australia only.


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

There are a few plakat females up right now. These two I like;

















(And boy is that guy flashy!)


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh my gosh, that betta is beautiful!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Noctiluca said:


> Definitely lucky!
> 
> So, given that I have a multicoloured male, crossing with a black dragonsale female would work reasonably well, right? (...I only ask because there are two up on Aquabid right now.)


I'm guessing the multicolor involves both irid and red - crossed to a black dragon = you won't have any full dragon scales. Some may be partial of any multi color (irid, red, or copper) . . . highly depends on the genetic background of the parents and though theory says certain genes are more dominant, but IMO who's genes out of the pair is dominant (has stronger background). You will have to further breed F1 siblings for both color and form.

Wow, Those are gorgeous females. It would be a shame to breed them to a VT. But who knows, you might eventually get HMs (if you work on the delta tails). . . . Form wise, to my experience is similar to color - it doesn't always follow the theory. It more depends on who's genes are stronger. That being said, though theory says you should get more VT, in reality you might get more of other forms. The possibilities are; VT, delta T (long and short finned), long finned round tail, classic round tail PK, delta tail PK, HMPK, in between tail (too short to be long finned but too long to be a PK)


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

This thread has a lot of DSVTs on it that you can look and ogle at.


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

indjo said:


> [snip]
> Wow, Those are gorgeous females. It would be a shame to breed them to a VT. But who knows, you might eventually get HMs


Technically looking to stay with VTs while working on dragonscale within the tail type. I don't think I'll be getting either of them, but a girl can dream, right?

I do know it will take at least two, if not more generations to get anywhere. Probably more since I'm a newbie 

RE my guy though, red, blue iridescence, and possibly cambodian or something? I attached a picture if someone wants to help me out. (Please excuse the fins, old pic from when he was getting over a bad case of rot)

A question on the dragonscale and metallic genes though, do you need one to work with the other? I've read some writeups saying you need metallic genes for dragonscale to be expressed, but others saying the two are unrelated. 

There also seems to be quite a bit of confusion over what to call metallic vs what to call dragonscale. Totally not helping my brain!



Mar said:


> This thread has a lot of DSVTs on it that you can look and ogle at.


The thread that led me to this forum! I was looking for VT dragonscales and one of those pics popped up on google- 100% drool-worthy.


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## Seki (Jul 10, 2012)

Out of curiosity, were you looking for a DSVT? My local Pet Supplies Plus has two males right now... I could pick one up and ship him to you if you would like.


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

:O! Even if she doesn't want them, can you please post photos up?


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## Seki (Jul 10, 2012)

I was in a rush because I had my dog with me (well, my brother's dog) and I couldn't take pictures of them. One had red fins and very bright white dragonscaling. The other had blue dragonscaling and I can't remember the color of his fins. The cups were pretty gross and the red one had some rot going on, but it's perfectly curable. I'll try and get back down there to take pictures. I really would have brought one home, but I don't even have a QT tank for him at the moment and I have no money for one right now. This sick rescue of mine has wiped me out. Plus... I have fifteen bettas... let's talk about that... >.<


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

I want one! I would say both but I only have one spare tank at the moment.

Seki I sent you a message ^-^


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Regardless of novice or expert, it takes at least 3 (usually more) generations to fix new traits into a betta.

To my knowledge, metallic and dragon scales are related . . . sort of. It's easier to create DS by crossing it to metallics but you don't need them to create DS. I read somewhere that metallics only need one metallic gene while DS need a pair of them. But either crossing (DS x regular or DS x metallic) will produce partial DS. 

If you crossed a DSVT to a regular DSHM/DSPK, you need to choose the DS with long fins (preferably a VT female). Then breed back to the DS parent to strengthen DS genes. Then inbreed to make DSVT. . . . adding new traits to VT is easier than adding it to HM. VT are quite dominant. . . .


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

indjo said:


> Regardless of novice or expert, it takes at least 3 (usually more) generations to fix new traits into a betta.
> 
> To my knowledge, metallic and dragon scales are related . . . sort of. It's easier to create DS by crossing it to metallics but you don't need them to create DS. I read somewhere that metallics only need one metallic gene while DS need a pair of them. But either crossing (DS x regular or DS x metallic) will produce partial DS.
> 
> If you crossed a DSVT to a regular DSHM/DSPK, you need to choose the DS with long fins (preferably a VT female). Then breed back to the DS parent to strengthen DS genes. Then inbreed to make DSVT. . . . adding new traits to VT is easier than adding it to HM. VT are quite dominant. . . .


From my work with chickens, three generations only works if you pick exactly the right stock with exactly the right genotypes. And really, has that ever actually happened?? XD If I were to use my current male with a DS female, I would be amazed to get a full DSVT in the F2 cross. And if 'fixing traits' is betta speak for what 'breeding true' is in chicken speak, I expect it would take significantly longer then three, especially for someone who doesn't fully understand the underlying genes at work. 

Really interesting though, the whole metallic / dragonscale deal. Still doing lots of reading. Thanks for laying things out in slightly simpler terms though, really helps with sorting out the slightly less cohesive articles.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

We used to only get dragon vts in our petshops lol no other types
you could find a dragon trad pk which should be easier to find. Then cross that to a vt. Since trad pk is just shortfinned vt you wont end up mucking with the rays and shape of the vt form like you would if you add tail types with more branching


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## Seki (Jul 10, 2012)

Alright, so I picked up the fish Noctiluca wanted! Pictures, anyone? He is currently acclimating to his little QT tank, where he will be until he ships. Sorry, little guy, a half a gallon is gonna be your home for a little while. Apparently I remembered incorrectly about his fins, and he is actually a butterfly, not just solid red fins. He's very pretty, though! And now that I've seen him in better lighting (hate to say it, but the betta cups were stacked on top of each other on this disgusting little stand, so they got ZERO light), his dragonscaling is metallic and shiny~ I also grabbed a couple pictures of the blue DSVT. 


















And this little guy seemed so sad to be left behind, but Noctiluca said she only has one tank. :-(


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh my gosh, the red one is gorgeous.
I LOVE the red patterning on his anal fin.


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## Seki (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm glad you think so! That is Noctiluca's new little boy... I hope he fits the bill! He's absolutely stunning, in my opinion! More pictures in a bit, he's a little stressed right now. Very active and curious, though! ^_^


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

Took a peek at the thread at work today and saw the pictures you posted, Seki. Now my coworkers think I'm nuts 'cause I did this weird flaily-armed dance in my excitement :redyay: So glad to hear he's doing well! I'm sure he's enjoying being out of that cup. And I have to say, that has got to be the some of the coolest butterfly patterning I've seen yet. 

I really would take them both if I could, they're both gorgeous fish. But if I got another tank at this point I would have to buy another peice of furniture to put it on- and there's nowhere to put that!


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## Seki (Jul 10, 2012)

Ahhh, I'm so glad you like him!! He's hanging out on his plant at the moment, relaxing a little bit. I'll offer a pellet tonight to see if he'd like some food... he's already settling into this new space well!

More pictures? ^_^








This is the only picture I have of him with flash on. His dragonscaling almost looks a bit greenish to me? It's more silvery-whiteish-blueish (<-- award-winning description) in RL, though.









He's such a chill fish lol. Although he does have moments where he darts around like a madman hahaha.









His eyes are two-tone. And from the front, he has a little bit of dragonscaling on the front of each eye so you can actually see where he's looking! ^_^ Pretty cool fish, really~


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## Noctiluca (Aug 13, 2013)

You will never hear me complain about more pictures!

He's going to look absolutly fantastic once those fins heal up, honesty right now I'm just doing more of this: :redyay: <- New fav emoticon


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