# What do you think of the "alpha dog" approach?



## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Well my dog is a little brat and thinks he runs the show, (not to mention he is terrible on walks) so I have recently started trying to put my dog in his place and be the "Alpha", but it is harder than I thought. Meaning it is emotionally hard for me. For example, I am supposed to ignore him when I get home, but he looks totally dissed when he runs up to me and I ignore him. It makes me feel really bad. It's also really hard for me to not let him sleep under the covers with me. When he chooses to sleep with me at night, that is the only way I know he loves me, and if I can't let him do that, I don't feel like he does. It's just hard. idk....:roll:


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## R0MPaige (Jan 3, 2014)

I completely understand, it's human nature to feel this way. Dogs naturally have positions in their packs, as you know. This is what their comfortable with. To tell a dog to get off the couch, he will not be thinking "she is so mean" he will either maintain leader position and stay on the couch or get off the couch and be perfectly content with it. Now, I would gently push this dog off the couch if he didn't listen and when he got down he would probably stare at me or try and get back up. Remember he is not thinking "well she sucks" he is thinking he is the alpha dog and he is challenging you for that position. I would in this case wait for the dog to show he is relaxed, then I would praise him with love, affection, attention or treats  If a dog thinks he is the alpha dog he will push to be in that position and tell YOU what's what, if he knows you are the alpha dog he will be content in knowing so ! dogs are not humans, remember that  Be calm and assertive, your dog will feel this.


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## R0MPaige (Jan 3, 2014)

a submissive dog is a happy dog  praise him when you see behavior you like, ignore him when you don't. My dog still sleeps in bed with me sometimes but he listens when I say down. Make sure he is warm and has a comfortable place to go and he will be happy. It will also make it even MORE pleasurable for him when he gets to come up  Also, I am not sure if you know, but a pack leader enters new territory first(house, gates ect.) eats first, walks ahead or right beside. Leaning against or putting his paw on you are also signs of him showing a leader role.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for all your input . I have been pretending to eat out of his bowl before he does, then making him sit, and then "leave it" and when I say "okay" he can start eating. I haven't been letting him on the furniture at all anymore, and when I take him out to go potty, he has to FOLLOW me to the door and not beat me there. Then when I open the door, I go through it first.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

I am not ready to even begin walking him yet. I am going to start training him on a leash in the house and slowly we will work our way up to an actual walk.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I hate the word 'alpha' in regards to dog training. Dogs aren't even really a pack animal. If you google 'pack theory/alpha theory debunked' you should get quite a number of articles explaining why its erroneous to approach dog training that way. 

Not everything dogs do is because they are dominant and have aspirations of taking over the household. 

It's like entering the door first. For me it's not a dominant behaviour when they push in front of me, it is a rude behaviour. Therefore, I don't tolerate it. 

There is the NILF (nothing in life is free) approach that you may want to look at. 

Just don't try and alpha roll your dog. I wish Cesar Millan hadn't made that such a fad amongst owners who don't know any better.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I hate the word 'alpha' in regards to dog training. Dogs aren't even really a
> 
> There is the NILF (nothing in life is free) approach that you may want to look at.
> 
> Just don't try and alpha roll your dog. I wish Cesar Millan hadn't made that such a fad amongst owners who don't know any better.


Totally look up NILIF, it's huge. Get The Power of Positive Dog Training: Pat Miller: 9780470241844: Amazon.com: Books As well as Culture Clash: Jean Donaldson: 9781617811128: Amazon.com: Books

Cesar is entertainment, not education. Dogs don't feel love, hate, revenge, any of that. When you start attaching human attributes to dogs you're asking for problems with training.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

We have operated from the dominant/submissive context for all 9 family dogs (way before Caesar) plus the 4 I've trained on my own since then. Like anything, it works when done right - doesn't work when it's done wrong. My two chihuahua rescues have responded exceptionally well to this approach. I do not train with food rewards. My dogs do what i tell them because I told them, not because they think they're going to get a treat. 

it works equally well with other people's (more unruly) dogs. That business about Caesar walking in to a house and the dog instantly respects him? Yeah that's real. Been doing it all my life. 90% of our communication is non verbal - I imagine it's pretty high for dogs too. They don't need commands to know what I want from them.

It is a fact of life that dominant/submissive dynamics are present in every single relationship you have, whether you are attuned to it or not. Yes this includes the dog.

Quite honestly, I couldn't care less how anyone raises their dog as long as it works. If it doesn't work.... And the dog breaks free and comes after my perfectly behaved dogs, it will certainly meet my blade. I've seen too many little dogs get turned inside out....


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

finnfinnfriend said:


> I am not ready to even begin walking him yet. I am going to start training him on a leash in the house and slowly we will work our way up to an actual walk.


That's what I did with my chis. I walked them around the house with shoelaces for leashes. When I rescued them they had never been outside before, let alone on a walk. They were afraid of EVERYTHING, so initial attempts at walking were failures.

I don't know if you use a harness or not - i think they are awful for large dogs but good for small dogs. However, they are not good for training the dog how to walk. I made a choker from the shoelace to control their head. Once they walked around the house wagging their tails, it was time to take them outside again. Also was concerned about them being a flight risk at first, since they were completely neglected prior to coming home with me.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Oh dear. My dog Barkley is so smart he will out guess me if I allow him to which I have no problem with sometimes , he is who he is and I love him for it . That being said I am just a easy going person and not forceful I will follow his lead as much as he follows and respects mine, he teaches me as much as I teach him, I don't see him as something I need to train we are in this together so we train each other...:lol: ArrOOooo this post is Barkley approved  


P.S. I got lucky it just works for us, know your dog and the rest will follow or something profound like that ;-)


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Always combine verbal with visual. Dogs are a lifetime commitment, they get old, blind and deaf. If they lose one sense you have a second to work with, and can work touch or vibrations off of that. My old girl is 14 now, has gone blind in the last year, so verbal along with working in touch has been part of our routine. My old cairn went deaf, then nearly blind, we worked in touch & vibration once the hearing went bad.

There are many techniques for training out there, some work better than others for someone new to training dogs. Nearly all are based in some way on leaders controlling resources, how soft or hard you are with your technique depends very much on the individual animal. The old Kohler method is towards the hard end, and will work with some dogs, but will shut down others. Operant conditioning methods are towards the softer end, a harder dog will give you nothing but misery if you try this approach.

I've got 25 years with terriers in the 20 pound range, smaller dogs with a harder edgyness to them. I've got another 20 years before that working with my uncles & terriers, I guess the terrier thing is genetic. If the OP is unsure about training by all means have someone with professional experience do a bit of hands on evaluation. This doesn't mean Petsmart or some such, they're about as good with dogs as they are with fish. This will give you more direction with training, what approach to take, and make for a happy long term relationship with you & your dog.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Tolak said:


> Dogs don't feel love


I think that's one of the most erroneous things I've ever read.we have had dogs as part of our family all our lives and they most certainly do feel love & give plenty of it too.




jaysee said:


> And the dog breaks free and comes after my perfectly behaved dogs, it will certainly meet my blade. I've seen too many little dogs get turned inside out....


Plenty of little dogs cause problems with other dogs too,whether they are perfectly behaved or not.I'm not saying you're like this,but I've seen lots of owners with small dogs at dog parks etc who think it's ok or even funny if their dog snaps at or causes general trouble towards bigger dogs etc.I don't care if a dog is as big as a bear or as small as a rat,I won't tolerate any dog being nasty towards my dogs in any way.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Polkadot said:


> Plenty of little dogs cause problems with other dogs too,whether they are perfectly behaved or not.I'm not saying you're like this,but I've seen lots of owners with small dogs at dog parks etc who think it's ok or even funny if their dog snaps at or causes general trouble towards bigger dogs etc.I don't care if a dog is as big as a bear or as small as a rat,I won't tolerate any dog being nasty towards my dogs in any way.


The 9 family dogs were lab and lab mixes. The 4 I've trained solely myself were 3 chihuahuas and a pug. I don't treat the little dogs any differently than I do the 100 lbs labs. I couldn't agree more with what you said, and I've actually caught a lot of heat from disciplining the little dogs. You are absolutely right - people allow little dogs the liberty of acting like monsters because they find it "cute". It's just as bad as the people who get big dogs and can't control them, but it's not nearly as dangerous...

But, little dogs don't kill other dogs while they are out enjoying a leashed walk. Some way WANT to, but they just can't tear a dog in half like those big ones can. I mean, my parents current dog, which I had a large hand in training when my mom got hurt, has toys that are larger than my chis.

I'm not trying to make this a big dog vs little dog thing, as I clearly love them both. My only point is that it's the big dogs that have a tendency of getting free from their yard or whatever and terrorizing the neighborhood. I know in my parents nice middle class suburban neighborhood that there are a couple such dogs, and there were two small dogs killed while out on a walk just last year. You had better believe that I've visualized taking the dog out (that lives 10 houses down the street), and will not hesitate to spill that dogs guts on the sidewalk like it did to the Maltese it killed. Poor things - I can't imagine the horror of having another dog run up and tear your dog in half like that. I think people are better off dropping the leash if they are not prepared to engage the dog themselves - at least then the dog has a chance to get away. It sucks to have to think about dispatching a dog. I don't believe in bad dogs - just bad owners....

Too, that's the big reason I like harnesses for little dogs - allows you to pick them up with the leash without hanging them by the neck.


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

IMO you should not forget that your dog is an animal and should not be treated the way as you would treat a human baby. This is the most common misconception among dog owners who spoils their dogs too much


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Well my dog is a little brat and thinks he runs the show, (not to mention he is terrible on walks) so I have recently started trying to put my dog in his place and be the "Alpha", but it is harder than I thought. Meaning it is emotionally hard for me. For example, I am supposed to ignore him when I get home, but he looks totally dissed when he runs up to me and I ignore him. It makes me feel really bad. It's also really hard for me to not let him sleep under the covers with me. When he chooses to sleep with me at night, that is the only way I know he loves me, and if I can't let him do that, I don't feel like he does. It's just hard. idk....:roll:


You are the leader - you are in charge. Doesn't matter whether you call that being alpha or not. The biggest problem I see with the whole dominant/submissive thing is people not understanding what that really means. Many people attach negative feelings and emotions based on a tenuous grasp on the mechanics of the dynamic.

One of the biggest issues with how I see many people train their dogs is that they wait for the dog to do something wrong and react to it. You have to take a more preemptive approach. As I say, you have to provide opportunities to teach them what you expect of them. If the dog likes chewing shoes, then use that to your advantage. Don't wait till the dogs chews another shoe - bring the shoe to the dog. By YOU initiating the exchange, it puts you in a position of power, and puts you in control of the situation. Play with the shoe, tease the dog with the shoe, and when it goes for the shoe intercede. It's how you claim the shoe as yours. Same thing with tissue and anything else the dog thinks it owns. It's your house - you own EVERYTHING in the house, including the dogs toys, it's bed, the water it drinks and the food it eats. It's all yours. (Isn't that the essence of the no free lunch method?) I think that such a change in attitude on your part will bring about positive changes in the dog.... As long as you are consistent. 

".....When the dog chooses to sleep with me...."

The dog will love you more when it respects you as the boss. Right now you are in a battle of wills, and you have to toughen up if you are to win. That's what it means to be dominant - to exert your will over overs. A GOOD dominant will satisfy the needs of the submissive in the process. It's quite a dance that takes place, even though it occurs subconsciously for most.

When I brought my chis home they were terrified of everything, including me. They did not trust me at all. While it was hard to see them existing in this state, I knew that I could not feed into that which means beginning the training process immediately. The most important thing for them trusting me was for them to know EXACTLY what to expect from me, which is nothing more than consistency. It's that stability that made them comfortable and happy. I know personally, there's nothing worse than dealing with someone who is fickle because there's always the element of doubt. Happiness for a submissive comes from operating within the bounds of clearly defined limitations and expectations. That's all the dog wants.


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I hate the word 'alpha' in regards to dog training. Dogs aren't even really a pack animal. If you google 'pack theory/alpha theory debunked' you should get quite a number of articles explaining why its erroneous to approach dog training that way.
> 
> Not everything dogs do is because they are dominant and have aspirations of taking over the household.
> 
> ...


In my case, I still believe in ''Alphas''. We had a dog and then it gave birth then we raised 3 pups and you can see that who dominates the other and the other 2 will be the followers of the alpha in the batch. Its just like a pecking order in sorority betta tanks. Plus, the alpha dog is mostly the eldest dog in the pack and the followers are probably just respecting what the alpha dog wants or do. so overall, IMO the alpha dog will be either one of the parent. Most of the time it will be the female since others just uses stud dogs. then the pups will be the followers when they grow up then the alpha dog will order them what to do and their limitations of play among others and to the alpha dog himself. The followers also get to eat after the alpha dog. And this is why some owners feed their dogs separately as all dogs wants to have a bite of every food they see. And when they try to touch the food of other dogs, chances are there will be a dog fight between the alpha dog and the follower or follower to fellow follower. So basically in human society its just like Boss and workers.

And also, the reason that they train dogs with physical contact, not because we see them as aggresive or dominant dogs but we are just correcting their unwanted behaviours. If you can see a follower and an alpha dog playing and when the alpha dog doesnt want to play anymore but the follower kept playing with him, he sends a bite to a part of the followers body (most of the time at the leg) this does not mean agression but just a correction from the alpha dog and this is what the behavior trainers are trying to mimic


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

''I could not agree w/ elenathedevil more! Cesar's techniques have totally been misconstrued here...I've watched every single episode & can't seem to see the monster that I've seen described here & in other articles. If people claim that his techniques are so far off, I'd have to see proof that it's being done better. And to the comment about Holly the resource guarder - HELLO...Cesar is still human, & from my recollection, has never once claimed to catch every single sign from a dog. If there's a more perfect dog trainer out there who has never once made a mistake, I'd love to hear about them. Until then, I'll stick w/ what I've seen work (on TV & at home), & not some twisted version of it that's been completely taken out of context.'' -jlg051490

In one of the debunking the Alpha Theory


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

jayr232 said:


> ''I could not agree w/ elenathedevil more! Cesar's techniques have totally been misconstrued here...I've watched every single episode & can't seem to see the monster that I've seen described here & in other articles. If people claim that his techniques are so far off, I'd have to see proof that it's being done better. And to the comment about Holly the resource guarder - HELLO...Cesar is still human, & from my recollection, has never once claimed to catch every single sign from a dog. If there's a more perfect dog trainer out there who has never once made a mistake, I'd love to hear about them. Until then, I'll stick w/ what I've seen work (on TV & at home), & not some twisted version of it that's been completely taken out of context.'' -jlg051490
> 
> In one of the debunking the Alpha Theory


I agree.



Here's the thing though - whether or not domestic dogs are true pack animals is IRRELEVANT. Dominant/submissive transcends all that.


Regarding pecking orders, we always had multiple dogs that were spaced out by 4 years or so. Yes the pecking order was oldest to youngest, which was reenforced by us. With my chis (and the chi and pug), they are the same age and were brought into the home at the same time. In both cases, one dog was clearly dominant over the other while both were unquestionably subservient to me.


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## AAquarist (Dec 3, 2013)

My dog came from another home and was awful with many things. Stealing, anxiety, manners, rough play, reactive etc. He is a very sweet dog but he just was never trained well. He was taken to obedience classes at Petco but ...I would hardly call that anything. I used a combo of both the "Alpha" approach and Positive reinforcement. He is extremely food motivated so I have found that he responds better to the Positive Reinforcement. 

He is MUCH better now and I've had him for 4 years, but there are still things we need to work on...like chasing cars. :roll:

Personally, I believe it depends on the dog with which type of training works for that dog. I do not think every single thing a dog does is out of Dominance but I do think SOME dogs are way more dominant than other. My friend owned an extremely extremely dominant St. Bernard who eventually became aggressive. His mom used the "alpha dog" training (not rolling or anything like that) but he didn't respect anyone else but her. He eventually became dangerous. To be honest I don't know what happened to him. My dog happens to respond better to food and get trained well that way, but what works for me doesn't work for every dog...so I try not to judge. ;-)

I was once a Cesar Milan hater, but I took the time to watch the show and honestly - he's not as bad as he seems. Sometimes I get mad at some of the things he does but overall, I really do think this man is trying to help animals and he knows them very well. Not everyone is going to agree with his methods but I am sure there are worse.


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## Quinn (Apr 4, 2010)

I was trying really hard to stay off this thread, and I probably wont be back to it, because I've had enough of internet forum arguments :lol: I just wanted to say my little part.
I will say though, not as a response to any of the other replies, just to the initial question - No, I do not believe in pretty much any methodology of training based on dominance theory. To make a very long story short, the initial research that backed the entire idea of dominance theory has been seen to be faulty, and dominance theory training has been debunked. The study that started this all was done on wolves (which while similar are NOT our domesticted dogs) in captivity. The fact that small captivity caused them to behave in a different manner than they naturally do, combined with the fact that the researcher was incorrectly observing certain behaviors and putting human emotions behind them resulted in data that just isn't true. Anyone interested can google dominance theory debunked and I'm sure you'll find a lot of info.

I am a positive reinforcement trainer by trade. I used to use aversive methods (prior to my education and career) and I have seen what (good, correct) positive reinforcement training can do. Positive doesn't mean permissive, and it doesn't mean shoving cookies in your dogs face. While MOST of teaching the behaviors is food based reward (if that is a high motivator for the dog) that isn't all it is about. It is based in, well really it IS, behavioral science. 
Regardless I don't MIND using treats. Why should I? What is so bad about it? I know I don't work without a paycheck! If my boss (well bad example, I am my boss, but shh) told me she was only going to pay me in hugs, or told me that I will just be shocked, or rolled over and pinned down for being late, or calling out, or messing up some paper work I'd quit in a second. And maybe bite her on the way out ;-)

I'm not trying to say anything bad about the methods any of the members reading use, everyone is free to make their own decisions about the methods they use. However we should ALL educate ourselves on our choices, so I strongly suggest reading up on dominance theory, on the pitfalls of punishment and what the fall out can be, and also on how to correctly execute punishment (it actually is a very tricky thing to do right). But through my education, my personal readings, and my experience and observations I strongly believe that positive reinforcement is the way to go, and the methodology I choose to use.
As I said before I don't want to get into a debate or argument, and please no one take offense, we all have our own views. If anyone is further interested in learning I can recommend some great books to read (two I already saw listed) and give some online resources. Feel free to PM me 


EDIT: Oh also, I just wanted to note that the word "dominance" is often incorrectly used. Dominance is not a personality trait. Actually it describes the relationship between individuals. This means that it can be a fluid thing. A may be the "dominant" one over B when it comes to picking a toy, but then defers to B when it comes to the best napping spots. Just wanted to note that since it is a widely misused phrase nowadays in the animal world.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think the issue for me is what behaviour people see as dominant. I've met so many people with reactive dogs whose behaviour stems from fear not dominance. To take a forcible approach with those kinds of dogs can lead to all sorts of issues.

We have a dog here that lunges, hackles up, growls and barks at other dogs. Does she do this because she is aggressive and trying to dominate the other dog? Nope. She does it because she is absolutely petrified of other dogs and thinks a good defence is a good offence. Everything has to be positive with her and anticipating and intervening when you can feel her cross that threshold. 

Yet there are people out there who believe she is showing dominant behaviour and that I should discipline her for it. 

Also just because a dog looks to a human like it is in charge, doesn't mean that this will always be the case or it is actually the 'alpha' of other dogs in the household. Dynamics can change over time especially as dogs get older and quite often if they are of the same gender. 

I don't like Cesar Millan because he usually tends to provoke a negative reaction from the dog, flood it until it submits and then that's it. Real training is about reshaping a negative behaviour, not just repressing it through sheer force. There was one episode where he went into the yard with a white German Shepherd and the poor thing was absolutely petrified and he gave it no release of pressure even when all it was doing was trying to get away. 

If you dumped a strange man into most people's backyards who then chased the dog around with some sort of bucket in his hand I bet most would react on the defensive. 

This is my main issue when people start talking about being boss and quashing any show of 'dominant' or 'aggressive' behaviours. You'd think talking to some owners that anything their dog does to the contrary to their wishes is dominant when really it's not.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Not all aggressive behavior is a dominance issue - I couldn't agree more. Weakness and insecurity will lead to "aggressive" behavior as well. The dominance "problem" is not with the dog - it's with the human. Same goes for aggression due to insecurity. People are to blame for all dog problems, with few exceptions.


The dominant/submissive dynamic is an fundamental part of nature - animals are governed by it. Including humans. The only place it "doesn't exist" is in the minds of "intellectuals" who arrogantly think that they have evolved.

You can certainly dress it up and call it whatever you want, The bottom line is that the key to keeping a happy and obedient dog is for the owner to be in charge. 

Though personally, I have no interest in obedience, which is VERY different that submission. Obedience is doing something that you don't want to do. Submission is bending your will to align with another's - doing something because you want to do it.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I do agree though, that most people need a great deal of education on what it means to be dominant, both those who don't like it and those that employ it.


I wonder what horse people have to say about all this....


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Well just an update. I have been using this approach for the past couple of days and my dog's behavior is really improving. Yes I have been dominant but I haven't been "forceful". The idea of being "calm and assertive" really helps me. Never get mad or frustrated, just give off a calm energy and make it clear what you want from the dog. The dog will pick up on that energy and _want_ to be compliant.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Fully half of training for someone new to dogs is training the owner. Like aquatics, the learning curve seems steep at first, but with some research & applying what is learned you'll find what works best for you & the individual dog. Also as with aquatics, dog training is an ever evolving and growing thing, both are a lifetime learning experience.

Thought I'd mention the parallels between dog topics on a fish forum & fish topics on a dog forum are amusing, anyone ever involved in both understands the tangents they can go off on, as well as some of the misinformation. This is certainly not due to lack of caring, or trying, just lack of long term exposure to the topic material. Folks involved with a particular species seem to be very caring about all living things, unfortunately not everything applies equally from humans on down to plants. This is often difficult to grasp, but when you do it's a huge aha moment.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

I feel like this is a psychological transformation for me as well as my dog.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Well just an update. I have been using this approach for the past couple of days and my dog's behavior is really improving. Yes I have been dominant but I haven't been "forceful". The idea of being "calm and assertive" really helps me. Never get mad or frustrated, just give off a calm energy and make it clear what you want from the dog. The dog will pick up on that energy and _want_ to be compliant.


I mean that is how _my_ dog seems to be responding...


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Lol, it is a learning experience. It was a head scratcher for me long ago; why won't things that work with dogs at least work a little with fish? Same thing happened way back with dogs & my little brother, took a bit to put 2 & 2 together.

Being calm is a big thing, and yes, it does seem to give you a more thoughtful way of approaching things.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

jaysee said:


> The 9 family dogs were lab and lab mixes. The 4 I've trained solely myself were 3 chihuahuas and a pug. I don't treat the little dogs any differently than I do the 100 lbs labs. I couldn't agree more with what you said, and I've actually caught a lot of heat from disciplining the little dogs. You are absolutely right - people allow little dogs the liberty of acting like monsters because they find it "cute". It's just as bad as the people who get big dogs and can't control them, but it's not nearly as dangerous...


So true.There was an awful incident at the local dog park a while ago where a little dog was grabbed and shaken by a big dog,luckily it survived,but I think just,the poor thing.I hate incidents at the dog park (or anywhere) it puts you off and makes you nervous.There are too many stupid owners who just couldn't care less.

A while ago a big German Shepherd cross raced over for no reason whatsoever and tried to attack my girl dog,I managed to jump over her just in time and the rotten thing ripped up my arm,luckily though it wasn't able to touch my dog.The owner pulled it off after what seemed like forever but never said a word to us,never asked if my dog or me were ok,never apologised.Nothing.He just walked off with his filthy dog.Scumbags. :evil:


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Polkadot said:


> So true.There was an awful incident at the local dog park a while ago where a little dog was grabbed and shaken by a big dog,luckily it survived,but I think just,the poor thing.I hate incidents at the dog park (or anywhere) it puts you off and makes you nervous.There are too many stupid owners who just couldn't care less.
> 
> A while ago a big German Shepherd cross raced over for no reason whatsoever and tried to attack my girl dog,I managed to jump over her just in time and the rotten thing ripped up my arm,luckily though it wasn't able to touch my dog.The owner pulled it off after what seemed like forever but never said a word to us,never asked if my dog or me were ok,never apologised.Nothing.He just walked off with his filthy dog.Scumbags. :evil:


Oh wow! That dog wouldn't have walked away.... I think it's important that people have some form of protection when they put themselves in a situation where a confrontation is possible. I'm willing to bet that a can of mace would stop a dog in its tracks. In fact that's something I am going to start carrying with me when I start going to the dog park. Nice to have some range fr a first line of defense. Too, might come in handy with a heated owner encounter ;-)



> There are too many stupid owners who just couldn't care less.


THIS. There are a LOT of stupid dog owners out there, employing all sorts of methods to "train" their dogs. There is no shortage of examples of training failures because there is no shortage of stupid people. Yes and that INCLUDES people using these new methods that are so highly touted now. People talk about these methods like they are fool proof, but I assure you that there are fools screwing it up as we speak. Using bad examples of something as the basis of "evaluation" for the whole does not demonstrate anything.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

You said it jaysee.The dog park is supposed to be a fun place NOT a scary place that has you concerned every time a new dog and their owner walks in.It is meant to be about our dogs and play time,nothing more.Geez,I swear I have NEVER seen a place more full of childish,bitchy people,who are supposedly adults.Yuck! I only want my beautiful dogs around good,fun vibes,not a bunch of irresponsible posers who want to just strut around the park giving 'advice' while letting their dogs go beserk.Unfortunately there seems to be less and less responsible dog owners around.Sad. :-?


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The dog park by my parents house has one area for big dogs and one area for little dogs. A good idea I think. Not that I think they should be segregated, but it's nice that the little dogs have a place that's just theirs, in the event someone doesn't want their dogs in the main park area.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

That is a good idea.


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## JellOh (Mar 13, 2013)

To each his own, I guess. You can use whichever training method you would like, but I will stand by my word that positive reinforment training allows an owner to get more out of a dog. Yes, you can pich and poke and be an alpha to a dog all you want and they may learn basic manors, but then what? There is so much more you can do with your dog that will build a better bond between a dog and it's owner, and these activities are also very fun. Things like agility, rally, heelwork to music, scent work, and tricks are the best part of owning a dog, in my oppinion. I'd like to see someone try and use their "alpha" role to teach a dog to weave. It's kind of like a betta living in a fish bowl. Yes, it's kind of cool, but a betta in a proper tank is much more fun. There have also been studies done on positive vs negative reinforcement training with dogs. The dogs learned at the same rate, but the dogs taught with negative reinforment had more bad habits than the ones taught with negative reinforment.

Whenever you see an argument that debates negative vs positive reinforment dog training someone will always say "it's a dog" or "it's just a dog". I agree, dogs aren't human and shouldn't be trrated as such, but they are living, breathing animals. Just because they tolerate something or it works doesn't mean you should imply that tactic. Whenever someone starts a new training method they rarely do any independent research on it. They either go to a bad trainer and trust them wholeheartedly or try what "Peggy at the water cooler" said worked for her dog. If you are starting something new reseach and analyze it. Many people that use choke chains or prong collars never really look at why these magic collars are working. As the dog pull forward the chain tightens and *cuts off their oxygen supply*, choking them (who whodda a thunk it). The dog backs up to where they were because that's where they could breath. Is it worth it when you could be using nicer methods?

One last thing, the alpha dominate negative reinforcement training seems to be popular because it appeals to a humans ego. These creatures do what *I* say because *I* am the big, strong, smart human. They rarely think about the dog and what the dog might want. 

What is your dog doing specifically, finnfinnfriend? I'm guessing the change you see in your dog is because of your demeanor rather than pretending to eat before him. I often see competitors at agility that are confused as to why their dog runs perfectly for someone else and then barks or spins like crazy for other people. The compeditor is usually frazzled and that makes the dog frazzled. Dogs take cues from us, so being calm helps, but it's only step one in helping a dog.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I just wanted to say that a choke collar is not supposed to be used that way. You are meant to do a short, sharp correction not let the dog pull into it so it is constantly choking them. 

It's just that some people either don't understand that, or have no feel and offer the dog no release when the correct behaviour is given. 

I think prongs, choke collars etc. have their place in dog training. However, they shouldn't be used without an understanding of how to fit them correctly and the purpose for their use. They are not a band-aid for poor training, but too many people use them that way.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't recall the "it's just a dog" argument used at all here.

You misunderstand the dominant approach if you think it's just negative reinforcement. I mean really, that's just silly. Good behavior is rewarded and bad behavior is discouraged. It's as simple as that. The idea that you can only either use positive or negative is flawed at the core.




LittleBettaFish said:


> I just wanted to say that a choke collar is not supposed to be used that way. You are meant to do a short, sharp correction not let the dog pull into it so it is constantly choking them.
> 
> It's just that some people either don't understand that, or have no feel and offer the dog no release when the correct behaviour is given.
> 
> I think prongs, choke collars etc. have their place in dog training. However, they shouldn't be used without an understanding of how to fit them correctly and the purpose for their use. They are not a band-aid for poor training, but too many people use them that way.



I could not agree more. They are a tool and tools are only as good as the person using them.


Show tanks 125, 125, 90, 10, 5, 2.5
QTs 2x29, 2x20


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

jaysee said:


> I could not agree more. They are a tool and tools are only as good as the person using them.


Crates & clickers fall into the same category. Lots of tools out there, you need to know how & when, and probably more importantly when not to use them.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

I agree about clicker training, it has worked very well for Barkley. There are plenty of videos on you tube about clicker training and I think the most important one for us was how to make sure I am getting his full attention and proper eye contact which is the first step. It works and well worth the cost for the clicker which was only a few dollars. Of course the videos are free so there is nothing to lose and plenty to gain. I love clicker training and I hear it can also work with cats and maybe people, oh yes my human family are so next in line for this method of training, it could work right


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

There's some days where I think crate training might be a good option for my family.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

My dogs are clicker trained in a way. At night when it's time for bed I push the buttons on the remote to turn off the fish tank lights. They hear the click and get up off the couch and move to the crate in the bedroom.



Tolak said:


> There's some days where I think crate training might be a good option for my family.



Every day I come home and find everything just as I left it reconfirms crating as a great idea. There are many years ahead for the dogs to earn free access while I am out. 


Show tanks 125, 125, 90, 10, 5, 2.5
QTs 2x29, 2x20


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

My dogs are great with crates, looking into pinch collars for the humans. The tops of crates are good for storage, one has a bin of dog food, another has my wife's hair doodads, the third has newspaper & cardboard to go out in the garbage. They've always seemed more comfortable with something over the top of the crates, may as use that to my advantage.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Our two oldest can stay out unsupervised in the kitchen area (it has a baby gate across the doorway) and you will get home and nothing will be touched. 

Our youngest however will usually find something to chew up or pull down off the bench so she is normally in the crate.

We never crate trained until we got this lot of dogs, and at least based on what I have seen it seems a lot more popular over in America. However, I would never not crate train a dog now. It definitely made potty training a lot easier and less messy.


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

I found young dogs to chew a lot then i found out they were just teething so unless if the dog is a year older you have to really train him


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

There was one episode with a Maltese type dog where Ceasar came in and the dog was like drinking water for ten minutes to avoid contact with him... All I remember is at the end he admitted that his theories do not work for every type of dog. ;p 
There was also another one where he could not help a fear based dog no matter what he tried (he spent months working with the dog). And he was pretty much babying the thing by the end of it. Which even though it was sad for the dog I appreciated it because I have similar issues with my current dog. xD

We never crate trained any of our dogs either. I always did a similar method that Jaysee used. If I know the dog likes to chew shoes, I would bring shoes to the dog and then spend time discouraging the dog from touching these things.


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