# Giants and Dragons, oh my!



## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

What a whirlwind courtship this has been! This dawning interest in breeding Bettas. I can't help thinking, am I in over my head? Is this the right thing? What will happen to these precious lives should something happen to me? 
Leave it be for now, make a plan and start looking for friends and family to step up, it's all I really can do.
Since I got my Vincent my idea for a breeding program has coalesced in to a plan. Looking at hundreds of Bettas and pictures of Bettas has given me a good solid picture of what I like, and what I can't live with. 
A good strong body, with a flat top line, a nice clean, blunt head and symmetrical finage. These are my main goals, and size! I'm smitten with giants. There is something about him, the way he carries himself, his calm, self assured demeaner, I am head over heels in love. I started placing out a few that don't fit with the program. Found excellent homes for two boys, so far. One more to find just the right place for.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Having been a Champion show dog breeder for 40+ years I know that the first rule of breeding quality stock is to obtain the very best quality to start with. That said, meet my foundation Sire, Vincent The Great and Wonderful.
View attachment 700073

Vincent was bred in Thailand by a breeder known as Emmygolf, and spawned in late August or early September of 2015. 
He came out of his bag raring to go, healthy, in good color with an appetite. He was all of 6 1/2 inches long from nose to beautiful starflecked tail tip. Lovely blunt, clean head, great top line and perfectly balanced, strong muscular body. 
And that color!
His fins could use a bit more symmetry. The dorsal has not come fully erect yet and the anal is longer than the caudal, by a good bit right now. 
The edges are all clean, the ventrals are long, tapering in a killer blade shape and silver tipped. The pectoral are full, almost half moon shaped and have that beautiful starry shimmer that his tail has.
His color is jet black on his body and he has an almost perfect Samurai pattern consisting of well formed, consistently sized platinum white Dragon Scales.
This is a high quality fellow.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Oh he is an emmygolf giant! I had one of hers. Yes no fish is perfect and I agree its best to start out with good stock if possible. It can be hard to find high quality females. Often in Thailand female giants can be worth more than males and some giant breeders wont even sell females.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Brought a half giant girl home yesterday, she's very nice, bigger at 3 months old than my adult male normal sized males. Nice head, strong jaw, flat top line, black Dragon scale. She is not even remotely related to my Vincent, and she has some red wash on her anal fin, I will probably save her for a future breeding, possibly to improve the head on my copper boy Fion. 
I ordered two giant females from Emmygolf they should be here in a couple of weeks.
This girl is very young. I love the symmetry of her fins, she has the colors I'm working with, I want to get her here before I critique her.
View attachment 700281

And this one! I love her head, her top line, she's very balanced and her symmetry, as far as I can tell, is exactly what I'm looking for. Not a huge fan of white, but black is dominant, so....
View attachment 700289


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Time to start getting the spawning tank ready! 
I want to have everything in place and ready to go before the two new girls get here.
I found a 20 long with cherry shrimp in it on Craig's list for $25. Why oh why do people advertise then not respond when you inquire about the item? AAAUUUGGGHHH!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

A good thing about working with giants is that you get all sizes. Lol. While with regulars, you only get small bettas. . . . once used to breeding giants, you'll question regular's growth rate.

Good luck on your project.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

indjo said:


> A good thing about working with giants is that you get all sizes. Lol. While with regulars, you only get small bettas. . . . once used to breeding giants, you'll question regular's growth rate.
> 
> Good luck on your project.


Thank you! I'll keep you all updated!


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Heck if I have space/funds when you start with looking for homes I might have to claim one if there's a male like dad. Really tempting.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

BettaStarter24 said:


> Heck if I have space/funds when you start with looking for homes I might have to claim one if there's a male like dad. Really tempting.


That's what I'm going for, babies like dad, improved versions of course.
Color is always the last thing I breed for. Many breeds of animals have been all but ruined by color breeding. The Apaloosa horse and Dalmation dogs have re both had a long road to recovering good conformation due to color only breeding. 
A Betta can't swim with his or her color!
That said, isn't he gorgeous?


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

He's beautiful.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I can not believe a Betta this nice lives with me! I pinch myself every time I look at him, positive he's a pipe dream.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm the same way with my Giant Zuri. He doesnt have the best topline and his ventrals aren't great but his coloring is amazing in the right light and he's my first giant that almost didn't happen.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

The giants have an "air" about them, don't they? They're impressive, and very impressed with themselves. 
This new half giant girl is the same way, sort of deliberate and very calm.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Oh yeah. Zuri is currently blowing a bubble nest right by me, it's actually adorable I wish he'd let me get video or pictures.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Vincent is totally camera shy too! Will not let me get near with a camera or phone camera. I wonder if it's a product of bright lights and flashes when the breeders were getting pics for advertising.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Not sure. Zuri will sit still for pictures, unless its a time where he's doing something cute or in the perfect flaring pose for a critique picture. When its just get a picture for someone who wants an updated pic then he's fine, but candid shots, no way


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

The newest girl went in to the sorority today, she's a big girl, not a giant, but bigger than any of the other girls. They leave her alone! Not taking that on. Not even little Fireball the fin biter. Now that there are seven, and lots of new caves and nooks and crannies to explore they're pretty much ignoring each other. 
I love this girl's head, nice blunt wedge, strong jaw, tapering smoothly in to her almost flat top line. Good strong peduncle to carry heavy fins, balanced length to width. She's a good looking girl. Her anal is a bit longer than it should be, but the rays on her tail and dorsal are growing, once the webbing fills in I think she'll be pretty balanced, fin wise. Good straight edges on her caudal and nice straight mast on the dorsal.
Dayum I'm good at picking put quality! 
Pats self on the back.


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

I have a few half ( or 1/3??) giants that are 2 1/2 inches without tail. I like them! 
As far as pinching myself, I do it too sometimes lol I have a very nice PK male that i'm like " I can't believe your mine lol" BLue/Black/yellow/white  He is the king of my fish room right now! I have his mate waiting to be shipped. Since I currently have 13" of snow with another 8-10 inches on the way, she will not be shipping til monday or tuesday. Her seller said just let him know when it's safe to overnight her ( and another male I grabbed because he was way to cool to pass up, royal blue fully masked with orange lips and orange fins!).

I'm curious to see what color fry you get.... I would LOVE to work on a white ( or cello) and black line....I have a nice black (with some blue) and cello male that has nice form and finnage but I have no clue what color female to put him with. He's obviously a marble, so I was thinking a cello female, but who knows what colors the female would have in her breeding since cello is marble technically. :sigh:


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I'm a little hesitant to use white as it's just an all over pattern that's covered a color, which I think might be red. Gotta do a bit more research on that particular mechanism. It wouldn't be a bad thing to end up with black, red and white giant butterflies though! Red is just my least favorite color. Not just on bettas, but I don't wear red, I prefer black animals over reds, buffs, blonds etc..


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

OMG to funny! I don't ever let any of my animals wear red lmao!! I have started to wear red a little,just because I look good in red, but yes, I'm not a fan! In bettas, its ok..... But yes, red/ other colors is ok in my book  

I'm so confused on the whole "color layering" thing with these little guys! I have yet to find a really good site or article that breaks it down more. 

I have a blue/yellow/white marble HMPK that I'm going to breed, but have no clue what color female to use in hopes to keep those three colors in the fry.... I do have a yellow female coming to me next week. She does have some black lacing on her body and her tail and I think anal have butterfly pattern. The pictures he sent me are horrible lol He said it's cold in FL and the fish wouldn't flare very well, but she's a freebie that he is adding in with a new male I just got so of course I'll take her


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Witchipoo said:


> I'm a little hesitant to use white as it's just an *all over pattern that's covered a color, *which I think might be red...


What do you mean?
Note: I do not consider pale/cello or clear as white.



SusieG said:


> I'm so confused on the whole "color layering" thing with these little guys! I have yet to find a really good site or article that breaks it down more.
> 
> I have a blue/yellow/white marble HMPK that I'm going to breed, but have no clue what color female to use in hopes to keep those three colors in the fry.... I do have a yellow female coming to me next week. She does have some black lacing on her body and her tail and I think anal have butterfly pattern. The pictures he sent me are horrible lol He said it's cold in FL and the fish wouldn't flare very well, but she's a freebie that he is adding in with a new male I just got so of course I'll take her


I believe you are talking about fancy coloring - marble based where several colors appear distinctively separate on one fish.

Sorry, I don't have experience with marbled fancies. But to my understanding its more about luck than genetics. I mean, some may turn out as regular multi where colors blends the traditional way - red becomes red wash like, and black alters the shading of colors


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

indjo said:


> What do you mean?
> Note: I do not consider pale/cello or clear as white.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm talking about actual white. White markings on domesticated animals are a product of domestication, to research it look up fennec foxes. Anyway, cell and faded colors that appear whitish are a different mechanism than an actual white. So, how it works is a breeder likes an animal with white markings, ie a butterfly with a wide white band, so the breeder chooses a mate with a wide white band, the breeds the fry with the widest white band to the fry with the widest white band and so on till they have an individual that is no color except one big whit band. That is how patterns work, the bigger the pattern, the smaller the base color till the base color is completely covered by the white pattern. When an individual like that is bred to a colored individual the pattern re-emerges.
As far as marble, luck has nothing to do with it, but how a complex.set of genetics interacts. It can be mapped, but one has to know the genetics of at least 3 generations to predict accurately.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Never thought of it that way. But its true if you keep breeding small white/clear banded BF, you will get larger non base colored band. This applies to all patterns - the more you breed them, the stronger they get.

I don't like marbles because of its unpredictable nature. I've seen/read people trying to manipulate them but thus far haven't seen any succeed 100%. They can get the desired colors, but they can't manipulate the pattern of the colors. And when crossing fancies/kois to other colors, they still get regular multis. I would love to see people succeed mapping marbles and make them more predictable.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

OddThis is one reason I would love to have a pedigree data base!
I'm going to start one with every fish I breed. I will attempt to accurately track colors and patterns. And keep detailed notes.


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

That's what I hate about marbles, you would think if you bred a blue/yellow/white marble to a female of the same colors, you'd get fry of the same colors but I'm seeing that isn't so. Seems like some wil be tri colored, some will be multi and some will be bad bi colors or what not. It really is kind of a crap shoot! I don't know my fish's parents, but with my F1 I will start a pedigree because I'll at leave their parents lol And from there I will try and figure out if I can get more and more fry of my disired coloring.

Indjo: What is the difference between Fancy and marble? I know multi and koi, but when I see fish labeled as fancy, to me they seem the same as marble, just that that seller is calling it fancy. Is there a definition on fancy? I don't know if there is a fancy class at shows? I know in Chapter 1 in the IBC ( US) they are the marble classes and koi would go in there as well. Don't know how the classes work in other country's that all  And it seem like the term fancy is used more in other countries as here in US they call them marble. Confusing lol Maybe fancy is three or more colors one on fish? As where a fish that is marbled, but with two colors, let's say white/blue??


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I think calling them fancy is probably a marketing term. People do that with dogs a lot too, sell blues as "gunmetal" or silver brindles as "pearl". I prefer to use the standard terms. It standardizes things across the board and makes it less of a guessing game. If you ask me three colors should be tricolors, more than three should be multi.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To my understanding, fancy us merely a commercial name for multi colored bettas. But those labelled fancy do not show color combos like the classic color combo. Instead they appear in separate blotches or bands. . . similar to koi that has a white body background.

It is said that fancies were produced by adding marbles which somehow caused a mutation that enables these color combos. . . . so yes, you could call them mere marbles. . . . perhaps the term fancy simply tries to explain the kind of marble.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Well, I found a place to get 5 gallon buckets for free! I'm going to pick up a stack today and set up two in my closet. I'll use a heat lamp on one.and heat tape under the other, monitor temperature and see which stays most constant. 
I'm so excited about this project! Can't wait for my two giant girls to get here. Should be February 1st or 2nd. It's all I can do not to get started with one of the smaller girls!
I have to keep the ultimate goal in mind though, mainly because of limited space.
Patience witch, patience.


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

indjo said:


> To my understanding, fancy us merely a commercial name for multi colored bettas. But those labelled fancy do not show color combos like the classic color combo. Instead they appear in separate blotches or bands. . . similar to koi that has a white body background.
> 
> It is said that fancies were produced by adding marbles which somehow caused a mutation that enables these color combos. . . . so yes, you could call them mere marbles. . . . perhaps the term fancy simply tries to explain the kind of marble.


Thats interesting! I too, like Witchipoo, thought it was just a marketing thing. But I'll have to look more closely as adds saying "fancy" between adds saying "marble" or even "multi" 
Thanks for that info! 

So what would some of my fish be called? I'm thinking these are all marble but possibly the last? Because they are not white based. The first maybe a koi, but I'm on the fence about him. Can you tell my pictures from the breeders pictures LOL But I have a new phone now, so I'll take nicer ones one day 

View attachment 702793


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

Witchipoo said:


> Well, I found a place to get 5 gallon buckets for free! I'm going to pick up a stack today and set up two in my closet. I'll use a heat lamp on one.and heat tape under the other, monitor temperature and see which stays most constant.
> I'm so excited about this project! Can't wait for my two giant girls to get here. Should be February 1st or 2nd. It's all I can do not to get started with one of the smaller girls!
> I have to keep the ultimate goal in mind though, mainly because of limited space.
> Patience witch, patience.


I can't wait to see the out come! That male is so nice! I'm hoping you get some black/white(ish) fry like the male! Why can't they be HMPK?? LOL Maybe it's a good thing since I would want some babies!!


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

How pretty they all are. Yes, they are all marbles, koi is just a specific koi fish color of marble.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I can't wait to see the out come! That male is so nice! I'm hoping you get some black/white(ish) fry like the male! Why can't they be HMPK?? LOL Maybe it's a good thing since I would want some babies!!

Heh heh, one of the giant girls I ordered is a PK!


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

AHHHHH...So maybe come will be PK


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I'm finding myself more and more drawn to HMPK! There kind of like the bulldogs of bettas, where Splendens are more the Afghan Hound of Bettas. There is beauty in both!


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Aren't HMPK Betta Splendens as well just have shorter tails? 

I'm in love with HMPK. I still enjoy my two long finned boys but I really enjoy plakats.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I'll have to research it, but PK have a different body type, heavier jaw and shorter fins than your typical Splendens. I know they mix well and from what I've read giants were originally bred from PK. 
I can sort of see it in Vincent, his head is blunted, his jaw is a bit heavier and his anal fin is pointed like a PK.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Pk are splendens, just as the longfinned are. Both same species, just selected for different traits, like dogs. The thick, strong body that is common in pk is also found in hm and long fins, just natural variation and different breeders selecting for different things. Ive seen pk with horrid skinny little bodies and hm with big thick bodies too.

Our domestic bettas probably shouldnt even be called betta splendens anymore since they are just hybrids of a number of species including splendens lol

Anyway stunning fish!! I cant wait to see the results!!


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

trilobite said:


> Pk are splendens, just as the longfinned are. Both same species, just selected for different traits, like dogs. The thick, strong body that is common in pk is also found in hm and long fins, just natural variation and different breeders selecting for different things. Ive seen pk with horrid skinny little bodies and hm with big thick bodies too.
> 
> Our domestic bettas probably shouldnt even be called betta splendens anymore since they are just hybrids of a number of species including splendens lol
> 
> Anyway stunning fish!! I cant wait to see the results!!


Thank you! For the clarification and the complement.
Ok, they're breeds! I guess that realization hadn't comes to me yet. 
So Long Tail is one, Plakat, (what does that mean?) Is another.
I would imagine a mix spawn would include everything from Longtail right through Plakat and every possible combination in between. Right?
A symmetrically finned long tail will clean up Vincent's fins. A good plakat would possibly give me a PK like him to work with. Hopefully a male to breed back to Dam, or one of each gender.

Ignore my rambling, I'm just thinking out loud.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Kinda, theres 2 main genes for fin length, longfin and shortfin.

Longfin which is anything with long fins (so hm, ct, vt, delta etc) which is dominant. 
Shortfin (pk, hmpk) which are recessive to longfin. 

Thats also why you can get fin types in both longfin and shortfin form (ct and ctpk, dt and dtpk, hm and hmpk etc) because the gene for long and short fins arent really tail types on their own, theyre just there to tell the fins how long to be. If that makes sense?

Traditional pk is the original type, then the long fin mutation popped up and turned some into vt (which is why vt have the exact same traits as trad pk, 2 ray, round tail, long anal etc because they are literally trad pk with the longfin mutation)
Then more rays started popping up in the fins and they turned the vt into delta then hm, and bred out the long pointy anal fin that lives in the pk and hmpk for a perfect circle appearance 

If you cross hm to hmpk you will get all longfin unless the hm is carrying the shortfin gene. By crossing these two types the pk can help strengthen rays and give their strong bodies, but theres a cost. Usually you will get the long ****** anals of the pk in your hm and rounded anals of the hm in your pk. Plus you can get "tweener" types which look pk but with reaaally long anals, like hm anals. It just takes a bit more work to clean them up but def worth it if you dont mind working the line for a few generations

Haha now Im rambling


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Great explication there, Trilobite.

Did you really mean to say this? 



trilobite said:


> Our domestic bettas probably shouldnt even be called betta splendens anymore since they are just hybrids of a number of species including splendens lol


I'm sure that's not right on the face of it. But perhaps you meant something else by it?

_Plakat Thai_ is the Taiwanese word for Betta splendens (latin). Actually, it's the Betta splendens as bred for fighting: larger, bulkier, thicker skin, large jaw, mean attitude.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Please, feel free. 
Following your ramble, I'm thinking Vincent may very well carry the PK, due to his very pointed anal, as with any recessive, there should be markers, if one has a good "eye" for an animals form, which I do, (not bragging, just stating fact) those markers can be spotted and built on. 
Now I need to go look at the two girls I ordered. I can't wait to get them here!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Hallyx said:


> Great explication there, Trilobite.
> 
> Did you really mean to say this?
> 
> ...



Lol yeah I think I worded it really badly , but basically I tried to say that the fish we keep now arent really pure splendens like the wild ones anymore since they have been crossed with imbellis, mahachai and smaragdina to give us metallic and dragon traits. But they are mainly splendens, just not 100%

Yeah if you look closely enough at the finnage you can definitely find giveaways and get a good guess on the recent background, unless the cross happened a few generations back of course.

Vincent may very well carry pk especially since a large number of giants are pk, maybe you should start up a giant hmpk dragon line as well for me to drool over ;-)


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

trilobite said:


> Lol yeah I think I worded it really badly , but basically I tried to say that the fish we keep now arent really pure splendens like the wild ones anymore since they have been crossed with imbellis, mahachai and smaragdina to give us metallic and dragon traits. But they are mainly splendens, just not 100%
> 
> Yeah if you look closely enough at the finnage you can definitely find giveaways and get a good guess on the recent background, unless the cross happened a few generations back of course.
> 
> Vincent may very well carry pk especially since a large number of giants are pk, maybe you should start up a giant hmpk dragon line as well for me to drool over ;-)


I may very well do that. I've been getting more and more interested in PK, they're big, robust and really cool looking. 
Their temperaments seem a little different, like you said, being fighting type, they are probably more deliberate, harder to scare. A bit less delicate than long tails. 
Since the white girl I ordered is a full giant, and giants seem to carry the PK markers more often than not.......
Hmm, thinking out loud again!
This conversation has given me a lot to think about!


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

trilobite said:


> ....the fish we keep now arent really pure splendens like the wild ones anymore since they have been crossed with imbellis, mahachai and smaragdina to give us metallic and dragon traits. But they are mainly splendens, just not 100%


OK, right. That's what I was taught. But I was also taught that all those different "types" were just different clades or cohorts (I can't think of the correct term right now) -- but still splendens (as opposed to Albimarginata, Unimaculata, Raja, and other different varieties of Betta which are reproductively incompatible with splendens). I think we all know this stuff. Just looking to see if we're on the same page. 

As for PK aggressive traits: Since I've heard and experienced giants as more relaxed, I wonder what the gene complex for giantism does to personality, as well as metabolic characteristics, besides morphology.

Has everyone here read Injo's giant thread?


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Hallyx said:


> OK, right. That's what I was taught. But I was also taught that all those different "types" were just different clades or cohorts (I can't think of the correct term right now) -- but still splendens (as opposed to Albimarginata, Unimaculata, Raja, and other different varieties of Betta which are reproductively incompatible with splendens). I think we all know this stuff. Just looking to see if we're on the same page.
> 
> As for PK aggressive traits: Since I've heard and experienced giants as more relaxed, I wonder what the gene complex for giantism does to personality, as well as metabolic characteristics, besides morphology.
> 
> Has everyone here read Injo's giant thread?


Ooh youre talking about the splendens complex, which includes a few very closely related species like splendens, imbellis, smaragdina etc and can breed together. So theres splendens, the complex and theres also splendens the species. I think were one the same page

I havent read it yet but I might hunt it down and have a read


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

If you find it please tag me or something, I couldn't find it.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Found it, its a good read
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=99066&highlight=giant&page=2


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

I am interested in the offspring if you sell any. A a potentially large, healthy pet quality one is fine for me I won't be breeding any. Feel free to PM me.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

trilobite said:


> Found it, its a good read
> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=99066&highlight=giant&page=2


Thank you. It is a good read, with links to more material to peruse.
Lots to mull over. 
The size markers are particularly helpful.


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## adelpino4 (Jan 28, 2016)

This is exciting can't wait to hear the updates


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## Bobioden (Dec 23, 2015)

What is the Minimum size tank for a Giant? I think I NEED one.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

A ten gallon is best, I have Vincent in my 15.


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## Bobioden (Dec 23, 2015)

I like 15's. My Nano Reef was a 15 long.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

The 15 gives him lots of swimming room and plenty of room for cover. Also, the sooner a giant can get in to a big tank the better because small spaces trigger the growth stunting hormone.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Witchipoo said:


> ... small spaces trigger the growth stunting hormone.


I've never heard this before. Could you link me to a corroborating document?

I'm sure that a smaller space increases the concentration of any stunting pheromone released by young fish (of any species).

And I certainly agree that a larger tank is always better (especially one that's bigger on the inside, ala Stephen Moffat).


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I got her home today! 
Vincent's mate is here. She is gorgeous! Black eyes, beautiful opaque white. She has no flaws that I can see. She's perfect. I'm so pleased with her.
I also got my new Dragon scale girl today. She's regular sized, but should carry the giant gene. As she has two giant parents, she's very pretty, nice symmetrical fins, lovely full Dragon over black. I'm thrilled with both these girls. 
I've named them Bianca and Beatrice. Bianca is definitely getting bred to Vincent in about 6 weeks. I want to give her time to mature. That will put Vincent at right around 6 months old and Bianca at 5. What a beautiful pair they are. I'll try to get some pics and video in the morning, want to let her relax and settle in.


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## Bobioden (Dec 23, 2015)

Any pics of the new ladies?


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

So, Bianca is not shy! I have to get some black sand for their tank, lol. The plants and driftwood are going in Saturday. The wood is soaking and the plants haven't arrived yet, but here is Bianca, Beatrice is hiding from the camera. These giants take everything in stride!

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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Ugh, this camera on this phone sucks!


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## alecmerkel (Sep 17, 2015)

witchi! we meet again!

I ended up getting the sister of your FM giant HMPK. Yours was a bit more breed ready than mine. I found a platinum White male HMPK that isn't a giant but isn't a small betta either.

I have he in my 5 gallon and I'm being very cautious with her portions in order to control her size before breeding so the male has an easier time. Not sure if it works with bettas but with clown fish you feed the one that wants to grow more and portion the one you want to be smaller. 

Good luck, let me know when you get some offspring. Maybe we can trade since they are from the same pool. I'll post my breed log on here once I started. I don't rush conditioning. It really the most important process.


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

Hello again alecmerkel!
I'm very excited and pretty nervous. I have Vincent The Glorious in a bare bottom 20 long with banana leaves, lots of floating live plants, a cycled sponge filter and a nesting ring! Which he's busy using. 
I am waiting for bbs eggs and IAL to get here while feeding the two of them every thing i can find three times a day now.
A spawn log will be going up pretty soon!
Trading might very well be a really good idea! I have been agonizing over what to do with any extra breeding quality individuals and having access to family members really moves a line forward if done right. 
I would love to see your girl. My Bianca has a new name, she's Pearl, it's her name, she's so elegant. 
She's a PK and Vincent is a halfmoon, so fins will need work, but his fins are really messy and his dorsal curls so her perfect PK symmetry can't hurt. She's almost as long as he is, but she's not thick bodied, i want to get this one done before she gets any bigger. I'm hoping to get a big PK or two to breed back to the parents. 
I don't have a lot of room right now, so i can't get overloaded. 
We should stay in touch.
:-?


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

I am stocked to see the result!!!!! I wish you the very best of luck!!!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

To intentionally stunt them, keep in smaller containers and feed less. But there is a minimum limit (vary between individuals) to get them ready to breed.

The giant/giant Geno will still grow more either way, but not as fast. So try to get the pair ready ASAP, while the size difference isn't too big.


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## StephLove (Apr 11, 2016)

Following! These are going to be beautiful babies!


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm interested as well, not in giants so much as those colors


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