# Technical difficulties



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Hi,

Ok... so a week after I got my current male halfmoon, Cole he started building a bubble nest.

Checked with the place where I got my female, Myra and apparently putting him in a place where he can see my female causes them to well... you get the idea.

For the most part Cole showed interest but Myra mostly ignored him. 

Well, one water change later... he built a new bubble nest and now Myra is interested.

From what I read online I did the things common with conditoning, I set them up in a way they could see each other and fed them frozen blood worms.

After a while Cole started flaring and showing off his fins.

Myra's come up to him a few times showing him the vertical stripes on her sides.

Long story short, I finally let the two of them swim together. 

Myra waited under the bubble nest and it took a while before Cole noticed her. When he did he just circled.

For the most he just chased Myra and shoved her or if he got too close he would go the opposite direction.

Myra flared but mostly looked at him like... "I'm over here."

I think Cole was either afraid of her or didn't know how to react.

Anyway, I separated them and decided to give them a break for a day or two.

Though after I took Myra out, Cole started adding more bubbles to the nest.

My biggest concern was them snapping at each other so I'm glad they didn't.

Should I try putting Myra in a jar and leave her next to Cole for a while or what?

I've never done this before but did research on breeding bettas and found video footage on YouTube.

The store where got Myra had told me if I didn't breed her than her carrying all those eggs would become a problem.

I don't want anything to happen to her.

Would appreciate some tips for a scenario like this.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

*Color results for this mix?*

My current male halfmoon Cole is a turquoise dragon with butterfly markings.

He came from a breeder in Florida.

Myra, my female halfmoon came from a breeder in Thailand.

She's emerald green with red and blue markings. She also has gold markings around her gills.

As far as eye color goes, Cole is parti-eyed, one is half blue, half gold and the other is solid gold.

Myra's eyes are yellow.

If they do have offspring what colors would I end up with?

I've read both dragon and butterfly markings are dominant genes.

Keep in mind, I got both my fish from aquarium stores who buy their bettas from breeders. Myra is more skittish in terms of personality and Cole is more relaxed and not all that aggressive.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Ok, so I checked with one of the local fish stores. Apparently I put my bettas together too soon. I've been told to set up the female where she can be seen but the male can't get to her and to wait until the white spot on her stomach gets larger. So I'm basically going to have to wait a few days before trying again.

Still, I'd appreciate any advice about this.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

There is no right nor wrong way to keep, breed, nor raise this species. What ever works for you is RIGHT. So in the end you will have to find what best suits your resources.

Placing female in a jar is specially helpful (mainly for female) when you are breeding in a small tank - like a 1g tank. It helps protect the female until the male is ready to embrace. 

I do not recommend placing male and female where they could constantly see each other . . . not until you're ready to breed. But it is a good idea to flare them for some time during the conditioning period. If the female is afraid of the male, flare her to another female until she shows breeding signs.

If you are using a 10g and it has hiding places for female, you can release her at the same time as you put in the male. Yes, she will be chased and bitten but that's natural for bettas. So you shouldn't have separated them (first attempt) and let them do their thing. 

Females that are ready to lay eggs but have no males to spawn with will either release unfertilized eggs or absorb them. She should be okay. . . . no need to worry about that.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

indjo said:


> There is no right nor wrong way to keep, breed, nor raise this species. What ever works for you is RIGHT. So in the end you will have to find what best suits your resources.
> 
> Placing female in a jar is specially helpful (mainly for female) when you are breeding in a small tank - like a 1g tank. It helps protect the female until the male is ready to embrace.
> 
> ...


Oh, ok. Thanks. I only have one male at the moment. My other one sadly passed away from fin rot. I only separated them because I was worried about them snapping at each other. My female's always been skittish, she did flare at my male when I brought him home but a week later she was fine. They've flared at each other before and she's actually gone over to where he is and looks and shows him the stripes on her sides. 

She's full of eggs but the white spot on her stomach is rather small, someone at a local fish store told me to wait until it gets more noticeable before trying to put her and the male together again.

Funny thing is when I separated them the male actually added on to the bubble nest and when I looked at this morning it was much larger than it had been the day before. :shock:


. I suppose I could put my female in the jar I use when I change her water and leave it where he can see her. But how long should they stay like that?


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

The important thing is that the female is showing breeding signs. Both male and female should swim all aver their tanks in an "S" fashion - one following the other. Eventually the male will bite the female and send her to hiding. Once the female regains her confidence, she will approach the male or the male will approach her and the flirting ritual will repeat itself. This will go on until they are ready to embrace.

If you use the jar method, leave her in the jar for 1-2 days then release. The disadvantage of this method is female releasing eggs too early. Veteran breeders usually need shorter courtship period (less than 24 hours) compared to first time breeders (3 days).

When the female is ready to embrace, she will move slowly, head down and approach the nest. If she is still flaring actively, she usually is still in flirting/courtship phase. I never pay attention to the white spot under her belly. So I can't comment on whether it becomes bigger or not.

You need to determine when to cancel the breeding. Vicious males will kill females. So if your female is too badly beaten - motionless (not resting/hiding) on top or at the floor . . . . remove the female.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I get what you're saying, thanks. First time they were together she actually went under the bubble nest and mostly stared at him until he noticed. After that he circled her then when he wasn't chasing or shoving her if he got too close he'd panic and go the opposite way. At one point, he went under the bubble nest and showed off his fins and she just watched. After he chased her the first time, her fins clamped and she just kept looking at him like: "Hey, I'm still here." It's funny, when they're separated she'll swim over to where he is and shows him the vertical stripes on her sides. He then tries to show off his fins or starts adding more bubbles to the nest.

She looked like she was sulking when I separated them after the first try. 
The male on the other hand seemed dumbfounded like: "What did I do?"

He's usually a calm and friendly betta.

I did find a fish store who'll take their offspring when they're old enough to leave home. I'd basically get a store credit which I can use for food and other supplies.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh, I plan to pick up some silk plants, think adding those might help?


----------



## emuted (Apr 24, 2014)

Hi there, 

My first attempt at spawning was similar to yours. Released the female into the breeding tank and the male just doesnt seem interested and keeps chasing her away from the bubble nest, only to keep on expanding his nest.

Based on some advice given from my peers, apparently the male was not ready, or rather he feels his bubble nest is not ready yet. 

As i had quite a number of live plants for the female to hide in, I just left her there and at the end of the day when I got back from work, there were eggs planted in a bubble nest which had grown about double the original size.

female sustained some bite marks but she's recovering well now.

My opinion is for more in tank exposure between both bettas which will motivate the male to complete his bubble nest quickly.Live plants in the tank is advisable to provide the female with some hiding space and after spawning, also encourages the growth of infusoria which serves as food for the fries.

Good luck!


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks for the tips. I got a package of hikari first bites which is made for fry.

I plan to try again probably over the weekend.

I'm afraid of using live plants only because the last one I bought was for my veiltail who later caught ick and passed away. I think it came from the plant which I took back to Petco. So at that point I figured silk plants were the way to go. There's a guy a I know who has some nice ones that are a dollar each, a far cry from ten bucks I saw at a more upscale store.

I'm thinking of keeping one and then finding homes for the rest. I'd love it if some of them get dragon or butterfly marking like their Dad.

Funny thing is I've been putting together a list of names, that'll make it easy for me keep track of who's who.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

TealHoundogg said:


> Oh, I plan to pick up some silk plants, think adding those might help?


Like I said earlier - anything that suits your resources, and in this case, your preference is good. As for usefulness - anything that doesn't serve specific purpose is of no use. 
Eg. - live plants for infusoria growth for first day fry food.
cave, stringy threads densely packed together for hideouts . . . . . etc.

Some breeders prefer totally bare tanks. No plants, no hideouts, nothing.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh, ok. Should I be concerned if he continues to snap at her and chase her?

I had read it sometimes takes two hours or so before anything really happens.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

2 hours? That's quick.
With good hideouts where the male can't follow, first timers can take one week.

Just make sure the female isn't too badly beaten. . . . But from your earlier post, you said your male wasn't vicious. Only chasing her away and not attacking her. So your female should be fine.

BTW, by badly beaten I don't mean torn fins or even missing fins. What I mean is that the female is too weak to move. Attack to the lower part of the midsection causes more damage and can kill in less than an hour. So make sure the female can still swim away from any attacks.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks for the tips.


Yeah, he mostly chased her or panicked and went the opposite direction. He did flare and snap at her a couple times but nothing serious.

He's almost 7 months and she's 9 months old. My guess the reason behind her being so skittish is because when I got her she was in a tank with her sisters and I think she's suffered some separation anxiety. 


Looking at Cole today, I noticed he tried to fix his bubble nest which has pretty much broken up. Myra actually went over to where he was looking and sat there for a while before getting up. 

Not sure what that was about.


----------



## atb224155 (Mar 10, 2014)

I haven't heard of a fish getting separation anxiety from another sibling. Dogs and cats get it, but fish is a new thing. It's a hit and miss when it comes to breeding bettas. Some go right for it, others are new to the idea and tend to miss the concept of mating. Like some advice, just try again when ready, some females tend to be uninterested in males and vice-verse with males. I would also try to keep movement down to a minimum and not invade their privacy as well. Checking on rather their fighting or not is what's considered, but mating is their privacy hour.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well, she was nervous the first week I had her and she kept looking like "What happened? where is everybody?" she eventually calmed down.

My only concern with leaving she and my male alone is in case things get out of hand.

I changed their water and just to see how they'd react I put him next to her. He showed off his fins and she watched. Then she showed him her stripes.

He flared and she did the same thing after a minute.

It was mostly a staring contest. I gave them a break from one antoher and he started to build another bubble nest.

I think they like each other to a certain degree but breeding is something new.

There's some tutorials on YouTube, so I have an idea of what behaviors to look for. In one clip the female helped her mate pick up the eggs at the bottom of the tank.


My male is a dragon halfmoon with butterfly markings and my female is emerald green, but she does have blue and red coloring on her fins. A few of her sisters had cambodian markings, but I don't know if she carries those genes.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Put my female next to the male. He showed off his fins and she just stared. 

Now she's watching him build another bubble nest.

Is this a good thing?

I'm assuming it is but just want a second opinion.


----------



## atb224155 (Mar 10, 2014)

She could be impressed with his home improvement skills for kids. I would let her have a go with the male and see what happens.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

I'll have to wait till he finishes the bubble nest first.

Oh, I read before breeding it's recommended to feed the male and female food with a higher protein content. What does that have to do with it?


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You have to fatten up the breeders. The male will probably fast or only eat a tiny bit since courtship until fry are free swimming (if you leave male with fry he will continue this). But at the same time all this is energy consuming. So if the male isn't healthy enough, he might die of fatigue or bad immune system.

On the other hand the female may take a beating, sometimes quite severe. If she is in her top health, her immune system will help her through the whole ordeal.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Both my fish are healthy and eat well. I switch their food from time to time they like thawed out blood worms. I'll try giving them that this week.

Oh, my female had a few sisters that had the cambodian markings. I don't know if she carries those genes.

Right now they've mostly been looking at each other which I'm guessing is a good thing.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

So my male's been building a bubble nest, he keeps looking over at my female.

Right now she's mostly resting. I looked at her and she's definitely full of eggs but I think the extra weight might be bothering her.

There's been a few times last week where she showed my male her stripes and slightly turned over on her side. But she only does this when they're separated.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Can someone help me out on this.

So my male, Cole hasn't finished his bubble nest but my female Myra has been sitting at the bottom of the jar I've placed her in for the time being. The way she sits though is she has her tail and dorsal fin facing up and her head is lowered.

Anytime she sees Cole notice, she gets up and looks at him.

What's that about?

I'd greatly appreciate some help on this.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Fatigue. Flaring uses up lots of energy. Keeping her in a jar, constantly in sight of male will eventually tire her (and eventually the male too).

If you are certain she is in breeding mode and showing submission, release her. See how they act. Submissive head down means she is ready to embrace. !!!! If it's a closed jar, the male might not be ready. So keep an eye on them. If the female is ready she will constantly approach the nest. But if the male isn't, he will chase her. If she releases eggs without embracing, take her out and re-do everything. Try again after a week or so.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks.

He hasn't done much to the bubble nest in terms of adding on to it so I'll just give them a break from each other for right now. 

She's interested but he's sort of on the fence today.

Looks like I'm back to square one. 

*sigh*


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

So even after giving Cole and Myra a break, they still look at each other despite being apart. Which I guess is a good thing.

I think Myra was sulking last night because she had this look on her face that made it obvious. Cole still seems interested in her but he hasn't done much to the new bubble nest he started.

I was surprised to see her doing the submissive pose yesterday. Anytime I walked in, even if was something like answering the phone, she got self conscious and moved. If Cole noticed she get up and look at him.

Uh, just out of curiousity, I have an eight gallon tank, would that work for fry?

I've been told I could get away with five gallons but anything larger than that increases the survival rate.

I did find one guy who is interested in buying Cole and Myra's offspring. One reason is because Cole's a dragon scale.

Oh, as far as colors go I'm not sure what I'd end up with. Here's a basic overview of Cole and Myra's coloring:

Cole: Dragonscale halfmoon

Myra: Emerald halfmoon with red and blue markings on fins.
---

Myra did have some sisters that were green like her, some had cambodian markings and another was solid blue.

I don't know if she carries the blue or cambodian genes.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

It's important that they are in good health. Sometimes the male will die simply from stress, after separated from his fry. It often takes them 5-7 days to begin eating normally.

For now, don't let them see each other. Let them totally rest.

Personally I prefer smaller tanks/containers, unless I'm using a semi natural method. Smaller space makes food finding easier - since fry doesn't actually look for food but rather eat what is nearby. Consequently smaller tanks demand more water changing and sooner move to grow out. 
What ever the choice is, you must be prepared for the work load (?) that it entails.

Color probability has been answered in your other thread.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Ok, I'll do that. 

Thanks.

I plan to switch them to blood worms before I try again.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Anyone had experience using a hydor heater?

I've seen mixed reviews, my biggest concern is it's not adjustable.

The room where I keep my bettas is usually between 78 to 80 degrees.

I want to avoid doing something I'll regret later.

Any recommendations would be great, around a $12-15 price range if possible.

The tank I have is 8 gallons.

I'm giving my bettas a break for right now before I try again. They seemed sort of confused why they can't see each other.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Ok, so I looked around online and found some heaters that seemed like they'd work for an 8 gallon tank. 

Tetra whisper heater

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331201055609?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Tetra HT10 submersible 50 watt heater

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131180492718?_trksid=p2055120.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Hydor 50 watt heater

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261415989501?_trksid=p2055120.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


Anyone ever used these?


----------



## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

i agree with the above posts..you should not have removed them. The simplest way to put it would be this: condition both for 2 weeks on high protein foods (add varierty to avoid constipation, bloating and eventual SBD) and preferably for twice a day. Introduce the male to the tank for one day and keep him there. Once the female is conditioned, place her in a jar or breeding box that floats where he can see her. He will flare and build a nest. Leave her there for at LEAST one day. Two to be safe. Then, let her out. He will chase her, bite her and be brutal in general which is completely normal. If she has plenty of hiding places and is displaying only vertical bars or her normal colouration, she will be fine. When she is ready, she will clamp her fins, her head will be bowed down and she will approach the male. And if he thinks his nest is ready, he will embrace her.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Thanks, I plan to try again.

She actually did the submissive pose the other day.

I'd like some opinions about the heaters I found.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Uh, nevermind about the heaters. I found a hydor 50 watt that will work.

Saw my female, Myra doing what looked like the submissive/ head down pose. 

Funny thing is they haven't seen each other all day today. I plan to condition them again before I try again.

Going by how they've behaved this past week I think it'll work out the second time around.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Anyone here used one of those plastic fish trap boxes for separating female bettas from males?

I found some on ebay but they're mostly used for guppies, though I have seen dividers like this used to separate bettas.

I'd really appreciate it if someone has experienced using these fish traps


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Well, my bettas are still on break. Cole decided to add on to the bubble nest. I think both of them are still confused why they can't see each other.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

So here's the photos of my pair. Excuse the quality, Kodak camera was on flash for some odd reason.

Cole

View attachment 355618



Myra

View attachment 355626


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

One thing... should I add aquarium salt to my bettas breeding tank?

I've read about some people adding it or some type of medication to keep fungus from covering the eggs.

I have an antibiotic called Betta revive that has really helped my fish when they've been sick.

If there's no need for me to add the salt or meds I'll leave them out.

I know the meds are sometimes added to the water that young bettas are in to keep them from getting sick during shipping from the breeder/supplier to the pet store.


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Personally, I don't like using unnecessary meds/chemicals. Male bettas are suppose to care for eggs/fry, keeping them "clean". Anti fungus might be useful if you artificially hatched your eggs.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Noted, so I'll just skip the meds unless I absolutely need them.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

JUst saw Myra doing what looked like the submissive pose. Funny thing is she hasn't seen Cole since last Tuesday.

I think it's safe to say I'll be putting them back together sometime this week. Right now I've been re-conditioning them.


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Oh one thing... I noticed the airstone that came with tank kit is broken. 

I have a sponge filter and air pump. From what I've read the stone just blows bubbles into the tank and the surface water needs to be still for betta fry.

So should I get a replacement airstone or just leave it out?


----------



## TealHoundogg (May 7, 2014)

Uh, nevermind...Got the answer to that question.


----------

