# Possible Blue Dragon Project



## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

So I've made the decision that when I move into a bigger house at the end of the year, I'm going to dedicate my whole fish room full-force to figuring out how to breed true blue dragon bettas. Not blue bodied, but real silver-bodied, blue finned dragons-










This image is fake, but it represents the goal. So far, no one has successfully been able to create these. I believe that starting the line with a blue cambodian crossed with a dragon with thick scaling and plenty of selective breeding might get me to my goal. Dragons came about by crossing betta splendens to wild type bettas, to try to cross over the genetics of the wild types that contain the heavy iridescence on their scales. Every dragon betta has a soft iridescent sheen across all of their scales, it's just more difficult to see on some than others. Original blue-bodied blue dragons have a lot more body iridescence on them, which is what causes the blue cast across the body. I believe that crossing a dragon with a blue cambodian will encourage the fleshy colored body, while at the same time causing blue fins and thick, light colored scales. This won't become apparent on the F1 generation as cambodian is recessive. 

It will be difficult trying to find a blue cambodian as they are pretty rare, but if this project fails I plan on breeding blue cambodians anyways to make them more accessible in the betta community.


Any opinions or tips?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I'll work on em with you! I need some more fish around to fill up my barracks when they're finished


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Hooray!!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I'm obtaining some blues next week anyway


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Sooo. If I find any black dragons I'll work with them too. I finally have a heated fish room and access to multiple spawning tubs


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

@MrV- Really? =D From who? Are they imports?

@Mo- Let me know if you need help finding any. I know several breeders who would probably have some very nice pairs.


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## Thomasdog (Jan 26, 2012)

Best of luck!!!! Wish I could help you, but I only have reds! (I don't think that is going to get you anywhere...) Well good luck and keep us posted!!!


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

KadenJames said:


> @MrV- Really? =D From who? Are they imports?
> 
> @Mo- Let me know if you need help finding any. I know several breeders who would probably have some very nice pairs.


I would most certainly appreciate help.and I meant blue dragons, I'm also working on red dragons at the moment


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Mo said:


> I would most certainly appreciate help.and I meant blue dragons, I'm also working on red dragons at the moment



Ooh. So, you're looking for blue dragons (blue fins/bodies) and red dragons? *looks through stock pages*




> Best of luck!!!! Wish I could help you, but I only have reds! (I don't think that is going to get you anywhere...) Well good luck and keep us posted!!!


Thanks, T-Dog!


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm a relatively new breeder, but my parents said I can get a fish room, so hopefully I will be able to get/make some barracks (AND MALES/PAIRS ) and chip into your project somehow! Good Luck and let us know how you get on!


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Nice! But be warned- it's a never ending expense. Your wallet literally turns into a big black hole. :-/ Would certainly appreciate any assistance from anyone. Excited to get this rolling.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

This sounds like an amazing project! If you need help in any way I would be happy to throw in some aid! I have always wanted to see a blue dragon!

-Sincerely


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I think I just got a good idea. What about breeding a blue long fin dragon butterfly male to a white finned, black possibly? Dragon female


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Just thinking, what about finding a female cambodian with good fins, and maybe red, and breeding to a pure blue?I know you would get some redwash in there but it _might _work...not sure about the exact genetics but just a thought...


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Finding a blue Cambodian line is hard enough
They usually throw marble n pastel
Really funky fish to work with
I think it will be easier if u cross a blue mask to a blue pastel
Or a black dragon to a blue pastel
Crossing to wild type is a hit or miss
Some offspring can't be breed


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kaden, I'm sorry to say that this has been successfully done. By a person in Indonesia named Yudy Gondrong.

This is their blue dragon:

http://s1000.photobucket.com/albums...view&current=82cff739.jpg&mediafilter=noflash

http://s1000.photobucket.com/albums...talover2033/?action=view&current=a483b9c5.jpg

Also they used no editing to get these colors. Also, you can ask indjo. I was wanting to also take on this project of a true blue dragon, but decided to work it's something different.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh my goodness! Those are gorgeous!


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

Well the still aren't very accessible to many of us, so Laden could still do it as she wants to make them more available to people.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Of course she could still do this. I said nothing implying she should forget about this project or stop attempting this. It's a great project, but I was just correcting what I read. I'm sure she could even make this true blue dragon better than the one I've shown even though it's almost perfect.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

My guess from the pic.
The use marble 
Hold it
.......
There still the green dragon with white scale


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

I would love to see a blue Cambodian dragon which I've tried twice with Asymmetrical & Traditional but haven't had any luck at all except for one that I thought I did but as he grew he ended up being a grizzle.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't understand you.

What are you talking about?



Curlyfatbottom said:


> My guess from the pic.
> The use marble
> Hold it
> .......
> There still the green dragon with white scale


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

+1 to the above post. I dont under most of your posts anyways curly


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## Twilight Storm (Apr 14, 2011)

The fish bettalover2033 pictured is a marble rather then a true blue dragon, at least according to a discussion on another forum. I think they are pretty though. That particular fish was the best body armor I have seen on one of them so far and with the least red.

I think that's what curlyfatbottom was talking about "my guess from the pic. They use marble." (least that's my guess on the short post )

Mr. V- Did you find a USA breeder of blue plakats by any chance? I'm looking for one. Or do you mean you found a breeder working with blue cambodians?


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

I just received a pair of dragon double tail half moons to work on my dragon lines.... They are red, not blue, but who knows where my lines will end up?? I tend to go with the flow so to speak....

<---- Look to the left to see the adolescent male... 

My ultimate goal is to have a dragon, big ear, half moon, no matter the color... Is that sick or what!!!!

Jeff.


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## Thomasdog (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok, I'm kinda late to the party butt....

1. I love the nickname! 
2. That fish is kinda ugly. Kaden and you guys can do TONS better!  
3. I had a red Cambodian HM. *sniff* she died Monday *SOOOOOBBB* Would have loved to volenteer her to help with the cambo/blue idea...but.... consider her there. At least, her fighting spirit for you. (LOL you probably woulden't have wanted her anyway. She tried to eat Sparta. Perhaps she was not cut out for breeding... :>/ ) 

Best of luck.... you CAN do better than that... perhaps you could try getting another color of the blue, like purple or green or yellow..... that would work too.

Just some ideas.
Thomasdog


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Yeah 
I say they use a marble to create that fish
The hint of white on the fin throw it off
N the blue on the base of the tail


There no way to get a blue dragon with white scale unless u mess with pastel or marble 
With Those fish they don't breed consistent pattern


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Just making a blue cambodian would be a challenge!

Jeff.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

The only breeder I've seen with blue Cambodian is Jim sonnier
Idk if they even breed true


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## marktrc (Jun 6, 2012)

bettalover2033 said:


> Kaden, I'm sorry to say that this has been successfully done. By a person in Indonesia named Yudy Gondrong.
> 
> This is their blue dragon:
> 
> ...


that first one looks so fake. like someone painted it. im not saying it is fake. it just looks like a painted fish manikan or fishikan.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

I think this would be an awesome project!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree. It looks like a plastic fish if you really look at it. Though I wouldn't understand why anyone would go through so much to try and fool People. Then again I'm not surprised because I've seen people to through worse things to try and impress.

@Everyone: This is also a work in process. This is just a taste of what they have accomplished. This is also just one fish from the whole line so I'm sure they've gne much farther



marktrc said:


> that first one looks so fake. like someone painted it. im not saying it is fake. it just looks like a painted fish manikan or fishikan.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Perfecting a new line
I wonder how many fish they will go through until it breed true
The best of luck
To all of u guys n gals that's trying


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

The pictures I sent BL2033 were not fake. They were purchased by a local..... he would have made a big deal out of it if it were fake. Another person made a better blue drgn but I couldn't find the picture and couldn't remember who it was. But the blues don't breed true.

Yes IMO marbles are needed to change the body into a silver/white color.

Blue cambodian rare? Really ..... what do you mean by blue cambodian? Pale body with blue fins are rather easy to create. Simply breed a red cambodian to a blue. Eventually you will have blue cambodian.

I think this is a superb project to work on. And I know it isn't impossible to achieve. So best of luck to everyone taking on this project.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Woooow that first picture...it doesn't look right, I know they're not fake but they look sooooo fake!Indjo, I was wondering about breeding a red cambodian to a blue, I thought that might work...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

BeckyFish97 said:


> Woooow that first picture...it doesn't look right, I know they're not fake but they look sooooo fake!Indjo, I was wondering about breeding a red cambodian to a blue, I thought that might work...


Creating blue cambodians - yes (probabilites: red cambodian, royal blue, a mix between the two, pastel, cellophane, and a blueish cambodian). Continue the line and you will get your blue cambodian, along with white opaques.

But this won't work for dragons. As far as I can tell, you need marble genes for the body to turn light colored (the creators aren't revealing their secret). The only two genes I'm sure of is blue dragon and marble. I don't know if cambodian or any other genes were introduced into the line. IMO, instead of using cambodian, I'd use red dragons x blue dragon (either with marble background). Better yet, use those blue dragon marbles - the ones that look randomly blue and white.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I love this project! Are you planning on HM's or PK's?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Twilight Storm said:


> Mr. V- Did you find a USA breeder of blue plakats by any chance? I'm looking for one. Or do you mean you found a breeder working with blue cambodians?


HBPlakat in CA  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_q__bOl2PA&list=UU-vYTcoU3rLQ1j7WWpg3fwA&index=2&feature=plcp

Even if the goal isn't achieved there will be a good amount of nice blues around.


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## Nymmers (May 2, 2011)

I'd love to help/get in on this, they seem beautiful! The fish pictured just look more like marbles to me, and that they'd change over time. Which I'm guessing isn't Kaden's intent, she's wanting a fish who will stay that way its entire life? I could be wrong, but I've owned lots of marbles. Regardless if it is done or not it'd be a great project.

I'd even be interested in just some blue cambo's in general. I'm going fish shopping Friday I'll have to look for some good fishies. Also waiting for some of Chard's spawns to grow and purchase some of his purples. =)​


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## Fabian (Dec 16, 2011)

I recently saw some blue dragons on fb in a group.Blue but not completely dragon.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Also because it's still a work in progress.



Fabian said:


> I recently saw some blue dragons on fb in a group.Blue but not completely dragon.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

*Blue Dragon*

Remember the photos I posted before? Well those pictures were taken a about a year and a half ago.

I just saw this true blue dragon posted on Facebook:









See how it was perfected and as I said before was a work in progress. This is a true blue dragon. From what I can see, there is no kind of marble pattern on him.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Simply Beautiful


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

That picture is photoshopped. See how the photographer's fingers are blue too?


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kaden...VERY GOOD EYE! I never saw that nor would have. It's a shame because he looks beautiful.

Well, I guess Ill keep looking.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I made an attempt to restore the fish back to its original color-










As you can see, it was a normal red dragon. The editor simply morphed the "red" pixels in the image and switched them to blue, not realizing that it also morphed the fingers in the image. It's not uncommon.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

OH Kaden!! That's you! Lol. Sorry. Just saw you post that in LSB and didn't know that was you.:roll:



KadenJames said:


> I made an attempt to restore the fish back to its original color-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

This female is very, very close to what I'm wanting, but again, marble based. SO PRETTY!!
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1342746847









This male almost has the right idea... but backwards. :lol:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1342745934


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Even though the male is backwards, he is beautiful. A start I guess.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Kaden, my blues are spawning right now! Masked guys. They should produce some decent outcross fish for you! They do not carry marble.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

MrVampire181 said:


> Kaden, my blues are spawning right now! Masked guys. They should produce some decent outcross fish for you! They do not carry marble.


 
Sah-WEEET. I need some blue girls for the mint dragon line, too. :-D


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## tanseattle (Jun 28, 2012)

I have 6 male green dragon


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kaden, how is that line going? We need an update



KadenJames said:


> Sah-WEEET. I need some blue girls for the mint dragon line, too. :-D


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Yes an update! How's that little dragon juvie I gave you?


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

The juvie is doing fantastic, growing like a weed and flaring at the nearby siblings. 

Well, I've been focusing on getting my steel blue female HMPK -











to cross with this male-










 He's got some red wash, so I'm using steel to try and get rid of it. However, in the time I've owned her, I've NEVER been able to breed her. She's got some kind of disorder, I think- whenever I put her into a spawning tank and release her, the moment she gets touched by the male, she darts to the nearest corner and sulks at the bottom, literally for days on end, not responding to any flaring, and when she gets nipped she flies around the tank and goes straight back to sulking. I've tried all kinds of conditioning techniques, and different males, but still no luck. She's very vivid in color, plump full of eggs, and has very vibrant white vertical bars and seems excited to spawn, but the moment he touches her- nothing. It's very frustrating.

The female that Xman sent me, the sister to my mints- 
 


(sorry, crappy picture)

She's still too young to spawn, she's teeny. I've been fattening her up as much as I can, though, and I'll see how she responds to a male in a few days or so. 

I'm in dire need to either import or locally buy more steel / turq females for this line, but on Wednesday I got laid off from the government, so no extra spending for me. =/


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

(Not sure what happened to the text there. )


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## Enkil (Jan 15, 2012)

I wish I could help. Unfortunately, my only dragons are nowhere near blue.
I have dragon HMs in black with red wash, red, and black with complete dragon scaling.
I then have a male dragon HMPk who is yellow with mint green edging to his fins.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I've had this happen. I can speak from experience when I say, it really is annoying and frustrating. Even when you try anything possible. I don't know if it's me, but does that female have a little red wash on her too? Possibly the anal fin? It almost looks like its lightly colored and rusty looking?


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Hmmm, it might be your screen or something, I don't see a red wash on her in the picture. In person she's pure steel. :lol:


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Hang on, I think it's probably the lighting or something.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kind of like this female looks 










I think it just may be my eyes lol, but just to be sure










Look at these and then the original photos.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

In the process of uploading a video I just took of her. I know female #1 has red wash, seems to be in all of the imported siblings. -_- 

Here's a link to the video. She's a bit tattered up from the last spawn attempt yesterday.

http://s1054.photobucket.com/albums/s488/Bajistock/?action=view&current=VIDEO0135.mp4


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well it's not bad on her, she looks a lot better than the female in the firt picture.


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## vette91 (May 27, 2011)

Kaden, I have a question for you.
I know obviously you are keeping track of the genetics of most of your fish somehow but I am wondering how. Note pad and paper? Documents on the computer? Just by tank or "area" of the barracks(if you have a barracks).
As i'm starting my project, I'm just looking at the different way of tracking the genetics of it all and the outcomes of certain crosses.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

vette91 said:


> Kaden, I have a question for you.
> I know obviously you are keeping track of the genetics of most of your fish somehow but I am wondering how. Note pad and paper? Documents on the computer? Just by tank or "area" of the barracks(if you have a barracks).
> As i'm starting my project, I'm just looking at the different way of tracking the genetics of it all and the outcomes of certain crosses.



Oh, I keep all of my information stored away on my laptop, under Excel. I have a folder on my computer named "Spawn Logs (2012)," "Spawn Logs (2011)," etc. and for every new spawn I create a new "family tree" template from Excel and title it with A1-Z1, depending on which spawn of the year it is. 

BasementBettas sells spawn log spreadsheet templates on Aquabid for something like $1.50 each, here- http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?breeding&1342934945


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I use a sheet for each betta. The New Betta by Victoria Parnell has these pedigree sheets. Each one is filled out and stored away. I also am going to send these with the fish I sell.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

MrV, did you want me to start making these pedigrees for the fish of yours I have? If you send me the parent info for each spawn, along with the format you want them in, I can whip them up real quick for each of them. That way when you get them back, they'll all be organized.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

That would be awesome! Thanks!


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

if only this male was a dragon


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## Bambi (Sep 11, 2011)

the coloring in his first picture makes his tail look kinda flat xD, but he's very pretty o,o


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## ihatefirewalls (Jun 23, 2012)

*Wall of text warning.*

I've been thinking about this for a while, and this is my blue dragon genetics theorycrafting.

1) Dragons are basically metallics with "dragon" gene/genes that gives them thicker body scales/coloration. Every dragon scale color corresponds to a metallic: copper, metallic royal blue, metallic turquoise, metallic steel blue, gold, etc. The white scales of "red dragons" correspond to platinum/opaque whites (online articles were ambiguous, so I'm not sure which).

2) Platinum and opaque whites are both based on the steel blue iridescent gene. If I understand correctly, opaque whites express steel blue with the opaque gene (Bl Op), and platinums whites express metallic + with steel blue (Bl +). (I am ignoring the rest of their genotype. The steel blue is the important part)

3) All blues are expressed in the iridescent layer. Thus, any white scaled dragons can only have BlBl (steel blue) as their genotype.

Thus, I believe that any true blue dragon with white scales can only have steel blue finnage.



Note that blue cambodians are not true cambodians with a pigment-less body, but basically pastels (opaques with less/no opaque), all of which express blue/green iridescence. I think this is probably the best place to start for any blue dragon project.

If you can work in the metallic + gene, "dragon" gene (generally dominant), and opaque gene (not sure if necessary) into a steel-blue "blue cambodian" line, I'm pretty sure you would end up pretty close to a true steel-blue dragon.

My 2 cents. I'm not sure if my analysis is accurate since there was a ton of information to go through, but if anyone else has any thoughts I'd be glad to hear.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

Not quite there yet but just a tad bit....

Project still in progress


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

That boy look nice tho


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@junglist: what genetic background is he? If we know what background produces them .... maybe we can someday determine their probable genetic codes.

Great job. Keep it up.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

Gen 1- Cambodian HMPK Female x Malay King

Gen 2- Grizzled HMPK x Multi female

Gen 3- Grizzled HMPK x Pearl HMPK Female (siblings)

(TBD) Gen 4- Bi-color Cambodian x Blue or Pearl HMPK Female (siblings) 

Keeping the same gene is (a must) to get the same gene codes as there parents to keep the same patterns.

IMO By keeping the your line the same gene code you either want to breed siblings or father to offspring to keep the gene code locked






indjo said:


> @junglist: what genetic background is he? If we know what background produces them .... maybe we can someday determine their probable genetic codes.
> 
> Great job. Keep it up.


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## VictorP (Jun 5, 2012)

Do they breed true?


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

Did you mean in result of a 80-90% blue cambodian? No more like 2-5% will may show up from the spawn if your lucky to find them. There are no such of a true Blue Cambodian (of what I know) they're considered Marbles and the reason they call it a Blue Cambodian is it has the pattern of a Cambodian in Blue and they are *very rare* to find.

*LINK:*http://bettatalk.com/blue_cambodian.htm



VictorP said:


> Do they breed true?


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