# Bladder issues? Fish is lying on side!!



## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi All,

Fin, our Betta, has taken to lying on his side on the bottom of his bowl the last day or two. When I approach the bowl he will dart up to the surface, but then sinks back down. Today he spit out food when offered. I'm guessing its constipation and a bloated bladder, which I read will clear itself out given a few days. I'm worried that he isn't getting enough air though...anything I can do to help him out?

Thanks SO MUCH in advance for your help!

Housing 
What size is your tank? About 1 gallon
What temperature is your tank? Unregulated (in a very warm room of the apartment)

Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? No
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? Alone

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? 1 pellet twice a day, one day off a week.

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Weekly changes
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Water conditioner

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? No

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Has not
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Hangs on on the bottom, mostly on his side, spit out food today.

When did you start noticing the symptoms? He's been lethargic for a few days, not to this extent.

Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Lowered the water level to make the surface closer. We'll stop feeding him for a few days.

Does your fish have any history of being ill? Not since we got him.

How old is your fish (approximately)? Unknown.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Sorry to hear that your betta Fin isn't doing well. 
Generally, for a one gallon, the water should be changed daily or at least every other day at the minimum if they get stressed easily. It's always good to have a small test kits to get the parameters of the water. My gut instinct is that this is something that didn't happen for the past few days. Whatever it is, it has been taking a toll on him for sometime now. 
How long have you had Fin? 
Is he a tail biter? Looks like the caudal fin is all chewed up. 
Can you try to take a close up picture of him to see the stomach and fins etc? 
Has he been pooping regularly? It's never a good sign when they are not interested in food anymore. 

If he has trouble breathing as he is staying on the bottom, it was a good decision to lower the water level for him to get up easier. 

When was the water last changed? I would suggest a water change with the conditioner. It's important to keep the temperature somewhat regulated as constant fluctuating temp isn't that great for them in the long run. 

Hope he is feeling better.
Cheers!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he is not bloated, then he is probably not constipated. Earthworm is right, in a 1 gallon, you'll need to do more water changes, at least every other day. I have a feeling Fin has some ammonia and nitrite/nitrate issues going on here. The best thing you can do for him is to lower the water level down to about 2-3" so he can reach the surface easier and to make sure the water is as clean as possible. For the next week, do daily water changes with a good water conditioner like Seachem Prime. Once he's perked up and started eating, you can go to every other day.

It's fine to keep them in 1 gallon spacewise but there are two big problems with tanks that small. One is you do have to do very frequent water changes to keep the ammonia down. The other is it is hard to find a good heater for a tank that small. If you can, you may want to consider upgrading to at least a 2 gallon. Then you can get a good heater and change the water only twice a week. It makes it easier for you.

I really hope Fin feels better quickly. Please keep us posted and good luck!


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi Earthworm and Sakura,

Thanks for your concern and suggestions. I agree on the tank size -- Finn was my first Betta purchase and upon reading Petco's thing saying they could live in 1 litre I figured that 1 gallon was plenty -- I'm now of the opinion that 2 gallons at a minimum is ideal. 

Tail biting: I havent seen him ever bite, and I stare at him a fair amount. 

Water -- two questions:
1) I live in DC. DC has AWFUL tap water, not considered by most people to be safe for longterm unfiltered human consumption. With that in mind I've been buying bottled water and using conditioner. Even with all the crud in DC water amd I still better off using tap water, or is bottled ok?

2) Change rate vs temperature fluctuation. I'm more than happy to change the water often, but people keep stressing the importance of maintaining temperature, and I worry that too much water cycling will result in constant temperature fluctuations.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Every other day water changes, or as OFL recommended to me for my 1gals, 1 50% and 1 100% weekly water changes because sometimes, water can be too clean. But it's your choice what you prefer/feel comfortable with.
I'm sure he will get better with the right water changes and temp, he's a cute little guy. Good luck to you


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Bottled water isn't good for fish, it lacks nutrients/bacteria needed. Tap water is fine, the conditioner will take out what is not needed/bad. Buy a thermometer and when doing water changes, try to get the water the same temp (76-82) in both his cup you are using with his old water and the new water. A cpl degrees change won't harm him when changing his water, it's the fluctuation over and over in his tank that does.

(you posted same time I did so sorry for dbl posting)


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

Hi there!

I think 1 gal is sufficient for most people who do frequent water changes, of course, that becomes a lot of work for the care taker especially if you have more than one tank to take care of. And I have also read quite a few people saying that their bettas prefer their smaller homes instead of the upgrades  

As for the bottled water, is it spring water or filtered water? Of course with bottled water it can get expensive if you do frequent water change as well as some essential natural minerals may be missing in it. If I were you, I would get one of those 5 in 1 test strip to test the quality of your tap water to see if it's good enough to put the fish in and go from there.

As for the change rate vs temp issue, I had the same concern initially as I live in very hot climate now (in the 120's F at times), so the water coming out of the tap can be a lot hotter than the tank water (room temp). What I do is fill a 4 gallon water bottle (normally use in office) and fill it up with water and let it sit in the room the day before, so essentially that water temp is exactly the same as my fish tank. Currently, I change my water every other day now so I don't have to worry about the water temp and they are back in their clean home after 5 minutes or so.

Sorry, I wasn't sure about the tail biting issue as the picture you provided was not easy to see the fins and the belly. If you can put up another one, that would be great. I love the simple decoration of your tank and the color contrast


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi,

Thanks for the idea on letting some water sit out for a bit to equalize the temps! I had been using Spring water (I read that distilled lacks too muc stuff), but since the consensus seems to be that tap water is OK I might switch over to that (it would certainly make it easier to do more frequent changes). 

I'll try to get some more pictures up later (I'm at work at the moment). 

Thanks again,
David

Ps 120?? And I thought DC had been hot recently. Just noticed your all the way over in Dubai!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

RoderickUsher, all of the advice given to you is good.  Spring water is better than just filtered water and what you read about distilled is correct, it removes too many nutrients. I would definitely test the tap water first to see what its levels are but I agree, a good water conditioner should take care of everything in there. I highly recommend you use Seachem Prime or API Stress Coat because both of those neutralize/detoxify hard metals. Not all water conditioners do.

Good luck!


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

I've been using Aqeon Betta Bowl, but the Seachem stuff seems to be really popular -- I ordered some and it'll arrive tomorow. I checked up and DC dumps a TON of chloramine into its water, so the condition is a necessity for tap here.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Prime will be perfect for you then. My bottle says 2 drops per gallon (I have the super small bottle, only 1.7 oz) so if you feel like it's necessary, you can probably put in 3 drops per gallon. It's always better to overdo the conditioner than underdo it.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Interesting to hear that Sakura!

I was always a little worried about overdoing the conditioner, and its good to know that a little more is better than a little less.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

No problem. Best of luck with the tap water.  Let us know how it works.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

*Update*

Update: Hi Everyone! Finn seems fairly unchanged since this morning. He has taken to sitting facing straight up, which I guess is less bad then lying on his side? He also is swimming a little more. Here are some more pictures:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Am I looking at this right? Is he upside down?


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## Neil D (Apr 10, 2011)

He is a tail biter, you can tell that from the "U" shaped bites in his tail. He needs a 2 gallon tank with a heater. You should see him perk up.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Sorry, should have added a description. He is lying on his side in this picture, its a top down one. He spends a little time on his side, some facing up, and then some sort of resting on his stomach. 

Thanks for the tail biting tip Neil. I'm a little curious about it because I've never seen him do it....nor has my girlfriend. Would that be something I'd see him doing, or do they do it very quickly or something? 

I agree on needing a two gallon tank, and a heater. I'm going to hold off on changing his habitat until he perks up a bit, and because he seems to be having a little difficulty swimming for great lengths I want him nearer to the surface.

Thanks all for your continued interest!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aaaah, I get it. When you said he was facing straight up a lot more, I thought, wow, he's laying on his back? 

Some people HAVE seen their bettas tailbite but I think most people don't. I'm guessing it's a quick nip here and there. The clean water will help keep his fins from getting infected. He sure is a handsome fellow.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm leaning towards swim bladder here. When he makes attempts to swim all of a sudden he's doing this crazy corkscew thing where he swims forward but rotates rapidly. 

Do Bettas usually pull through swim bladder?

What do y'all think about the larger enclosure, should I hold off until he shows some improvement? Is changing environments stressful?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh yes, that's definitely swim bladder. It depends on what it causing the swim bladder to have problems. Usually swim bladder problems are a side symptom of a larger issue, such as constipation or bacterial infection. In these cases swollen organs or fluid push against the swim bladder, causing the betta to lose control of it. But swim bladder problems can also happen as a result of old age, indigestion, parasites, or even emaciation. For instance, I have a betta who is super emaciated (pet store rescue). When he ate for the first time, he did the same corkscrew thing because the food actually compressed against his swim bladder, he was that thin. When he digested the food, he regained control again. Problems arising from issues like parasites or bacterial infections can be hard to cure but other problems like indigestion can be cured.

Does Fin have this corkscrew problem all the time or only at certain times? Is he bloated or super thin at all? It doesn't look like it but I thought I'd double-check.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

This is the first time I've ever seen the corkscrew swimming. He doesn't look bloated....he's ending his second day of fasting to try and clear up indigestion if it is it. We offered him a pellet just to see if he was interested and he has not shown interest in it.

Does that point to infection?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It could. The frustrating part about fish is they show a few symptoms that could mean just about anything. And they often show the one symptom needed for diagnosis when it is too late.  That said, typically bacterial infection is accompanied by severe bloating because it causes fluids to build up (ascites, or the condition we call "dropsy"). Has he been pooping at all? 

Do you have epsom salts? If you do, go ahead and dissolve 1 tsp of epsom salts in some dechlorinated water and then add that to his tank. It's 1 gallon, right? The dosage is 1 tsp per gallon. If he is constipated or possibly has something like parasites, the epsom salts will help him clear those out of his system. 

It may help to also treat him with Maracyn 2 in case he has an internal bacterial infection. I know Petsmart carries it, as well as other small fish stores.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

I'll pick up the Epsom salts tomorow, and see if my local petco has the antibiotics, but their selection sucks. Had I thought of it I should have ordered it today along with the conditioner. While normally he lives in one gallon right now he is in less so he is close to the surface. Should I up the water levels? Can he get enough air without surfacing?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm almost positive Petco won't have Maracyn. :/ There's no Petsmart near you? They usually have a much better selection of medicines. I'm sorry, I should have mentioned something about the medicine sooner.

If you happen to have a 1 gallon jug, such as the kind spring water comes in, you can fill that with dechlorinated water and mix it with 1 tsp of the epsom salt. Otherwise, it depends on how much water there is. The dosage is 1 tsp per gallon so whatever amount of water is in there, I guess you can eyeball it and dose accordingly (1/2 tsp for half a gallon etc). It's okay if it's not an exact ratio, though. It's definitely more important to keep the water level lower so he can reach the surface. If he can't breathe air from the surface, he'll literally drown. Ironic, I know.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

I'll check if there is anywhere in DC that has a better selection. As for reaching the surface... If he's not putting in the effort to swim to the top is there any way to get him more air?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He's not trying at all? :/ That's not a good sign, I'm sorry to say.  Hrm. Well, you can lower the water level until it just covers him and hopefully he'll tip his head up and breathe every now and then. Other than that, I'm afraid there's not much more that can be done to help him get air. Airstones or filters that would aerate the water would also cause too much turbulence for him and in his state, he'd probably be bounced around too much. Poor guy, he sounds so weak. I really hope he pulls through for you, Roderick. He's such a handsome guy, too.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

David, 
Have you got a before picture of Finn? Does he normally have a darker head coloring like that? Is his anal fin bicolor with streaks of red? 
As Sakura pointed out, there could be many issues with these type of symptoms. I believe his problem is beyond the SBD/bloating alone. I mentioned to you in my first post that he was a tail biter. They can do it really fast, they can do it at night while you sleep, unless you watch them like a hawk, most time you will only see the result and not the action. 

I know it can be stressful, but If I were you, this is what I would do:
1) take Finn out into a temp cup
2) remove all the stuff from the tank, wash tank real well with hot water. Let cool.
3) in a separate jug/container, pre mix the 1 tsp ES in 1 gal of conditioned water = treatment (tx) water
4) pour tx water in the cleaned tank enough to cover Finn to breath easier
5) change water daily and repeat for 5 days and observe, may need to up ES dosage?
6) if you have the meds as Sakura suggested, add that to your tx water as well.
7) if you have frozen bloodworm, feed him to see if interested

Good luck with Finn!


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Morning folks,

Finn made it throught he night. I found a petstore in DC that has Maracyn-2, and my gf is going to go pick some up during her lunch break. I'll grab the epsom on my way home and, assuming he makes it through the day, mixup the water.


Thanks for the detailed steps on prepping the water Earthworm. I'd try a frozen bloodworm but the last time I offered him one (when he was healthy) he had absolutely ZERO interest in it, so I'd be surprised if he had any now.

With both the new conditioner, ES, and Maracyn-2, is it better to make a slightly stronger dose than weaker dose?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good morning, I'm glad to hear Finn made it through the night. Very glad.  And uhm, do you mean a slightly stronger or slightly weaker does of everything or of just one of the three things (conditioner, ES, Maracyn-2)?


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

I guess for all three?
Would following the package instructions on Maracyn-2, and giving a little extra of the ES and conditioner be a reasonable approach?


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Also, in regards to previous pictures, sorry, but I don't have any. I always meant to get some but Finn is camera shy and tends to swim away from the camera, refusing to sit still long enough to get a good picture. Photo taking has been easier in his current state.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, I think that would work. I wouldn't do a stronger dose of the meds but just a bit over on the ES and conditioner should be fine. Not too much over on the ES, though.


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## RoderickUsher (Jul 25, 2011)

Ugh. 
He didn't make it. My gf gets home before I do and found him dead. 

Thank you SO MUCH to everyone who offered suggestions and advice. An extra huge thanks for Earthworm, and an extra extra huge thanks for Sakura for following this so closely.

I've learned a few things from this, albiet at a painful cost. I have some supplies on hand I didn't have before, and will be able to respond more quickly in the future.

Thanks again to everyone; this would have been even more unpleasant to go through without your advice and sympathies.


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## Neil D (Apr 10, 2011)

Aww, I'm sorry roderick.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm sorry Roderick, I was really hoping he'd pull through for you. Finn was a handsome fellow and I'm sorry you lost him. I hope you and your GF get another betta and continue posting here. If you have any questions about getting set up, definitely let us know, everyone here would love to help you.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

So sorry for your loss  
As you said, we all have to learn from scratch and somewhere. I honestly had no clue about how to take care of fish (still a newbie myself) and this forum has been a tremendous help with their generous support and knowledge. I hope you and your gf will give it another try and get to enjoy watching them flourish under your care and share them with us 

Best of luck. 

Cheers!


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