# Betta fish unresponsive, bottom sitting!



## Plummedy

I left for one day - before leaving he seemed fine other than having more trouble seeing his food than usual for a week or two. I came back today and he's sitting at the bottom not moving. He's still breathing, he moved when I went to touch him, but isn't coming up to get air or moving at all.

I did a very quick 80% water change and put in one teaspoon of kosher salt (all I have right now). I checked the ammonia and it was nearly zero. It's a newer tank, but I used the same filter and gravel from his previous tank.

It's a 10 gallon, fake planted, I do about 50-60% water changes once a week (treated with prime) and the tank is at a nearly constant 80 degreees F and I have a tetra whisper filter running (with a diffuser). What do I do at this point - sit and wait? More salt?

I also have a snail that's been with him since I got him. I've had him a little over a year now. Will the salt hurt the snail?

I should also mention that he never does this, he's usually active, near the top. His breathing looks slowed and heavy.
Sorry, one more edit - could sleep have something to do with it? It looks like my automatic timer on my light screwed up and possibly completely reversed the schedule for one night. Even so, he was unresponsive during the water change like a dead fish almost.

Thanks so much.


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## EvilVOG

Well AQ salt (kosher salt in this case) is used for treating bacterial and fungal infections. If we don't know he has one then it's not a good idea.

Epsom salt is used for treating Swimming bladder disorder, that has symptoms similar to what yours is displaying.

Salts may hurt the snail. I'm not certain but it's usually a bad idea for anything without scales.

A picture might help us diagnose better, and also fill out as much of the following (i realize much of this info is in your original post)


> Housing
> What size is your tank?
> What temperature is your tank?
> Does your tank have a filter?
> Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
> Is your tank heated?
> What tank mates does your betta fish live with?
> 
> Food
> What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
> How often do you feed your betta fish?
> 
> Maintenance
> How often do you perform a water change?
> What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?
> What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?
> 
> Water Parameters:
> Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
> 
> Ammonia:
> Nitrite:
> Nitrate:
> pH:
> Hardness:
> Alkalinity:
> 
> Symptoms and Treatment
> How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
> How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
> When did you start noticing the symptoms?
> Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?
> Does your fish have any history of being ill?
> How old is your fish (approximately)?


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## Myates

Ack! 

Salt will most likely kill your little shelled friend.. go ahead and remove the snail and place him in like-temp water in a clean container with water conditioner if you haven't already.

Hmm... definitely a picture to show us if there are any physical signs. 
How is his coloring? 
Is he breathing rapidly?
Is he tilting to a side?
When you do your water changes, do you siphon/vacuum the gravel out regularly?
Are his fins clamped?
When he did swim for you, did he swim normal right side up?

Go ahead and remove him as well, place him in clean conditioned water that is 3-4 inches deep to help him get to the surface easier and do a 100% water change in his tank to clear it of salt- once you have it set back up and the right temp, your little snail friend can go back home. 

Is he going blind or is blind? Or was it just out of the blue he was having trouble seeing his food- did he lunge and keep missing? Or did he just not go after it? It could be an early sign of what is going on- for right now other then just laying on the bottom he isn't showing a whole lot of signs.


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## Plummedy

Do you think I should do another water change (just did one) to get rid of the salt? Or would that be too stressful - it was just a small teaspoon.

Sorry, wrote this in a panic. I attached the best pictures I could get for now, he's in an awkward corner curled up and won't move. I'll try to get better ones. He's been looking fat for about a month so I started feeing him less pellets a day because I thought he may be over fed. I haven't noticed much else different in appearance besides some bumps around his head that I couldn't tell if they were always there and I didn't look close enough or not. It's part of his body, no color or protrusion; just lumpy.

What size is your tank? 10 gallons
What temperature is your tank? 80 degrees fahrenheit
Does your tank have a filter? Yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? A big snail that grew up with him, must've been an egg in some drift wood when I got him.

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? For the past few months, Hikari Betta Bio-Gold and occasionally some freeze-dried blood worms.
How often do you feed your betta fish? Twice a day, since his diet - 2 pellets in morning 2 at night (usually 3-4 twice a day).

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Once every one to two weeks, sometimes it gets away from me.
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50-60%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Seachem Prime

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

- Will test other parameters tomorrow

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Not much if at all, slightly bumpier?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Not moving from bottom of tank, laying on side/curled slightly.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Today
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? One teaspoon of Kosher salt
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No
How old is your fish (approximately)? 1.5 years

http://imageshack.us/g/803/dsc0110gf.jpg/


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## Plummedy

Myates said:


> Ack!
> 
> Salt will most likely kill your little shelled friend.. go ahead and remove the snail and place him in like-temp water in a clean container with water conditioner if you haven't already.
> 
> Hmm... definitely a picture to show us if there are any physical signs.
> How is his coloring?
> Is he breathing rapidly?
> Is he tilting to a side?
> When you do your water changes, do you siphon/vacuum the gravel out regularly?
> Are his fins clamped?
> When he did swim for you, did he swim normal right side up?
> 
> Go ahead and remove him as well, place him in clean conditioned water that is 3-4 inches deep to help him get to the surface easier and do a 100% water change in his tank to clear it of salt- once you have it set back up and the right temp, your little snail friend can go back home.
> 
> Is he going blind or is blind? Or was it just out of the blue he was having trouble seeing his food- did he lunge and keep missing? Or did he just not go after it? It could be an early sign of what is going on- for right now other then just laying on the bottom he isn't showing a whole lot of signs.



I saved some of the water from my water change, I'll put him in there for now.

Coloring is good, breathing is heavy and slow, definitely tilted to the side, yes I siphon regularly, no clamped fins, swam normal side up.

Thanks a lot!


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## Myates

Have a quick question with those pictures.. did you use a flash? The rust color dusting on him, is that usual, do you see that all the time on him or is it relatively new?


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## Plummedy

I'm pretty sure that's his normal color. I did use a flash, it could be bouncing off of the rock color. From the naked eye his color looks fairly healthy. His scaled look slightly slightly raised, but that could be normal I usually don't look so closely.

He hasn't come up to take a breath from the top in about half an hour, can he survive without breathing up top? Should I move him or something? I do have a floating betta log he usually lays in.


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## Myates

What worries me is the coloration, the rust dusting color on him- if it's not his normal color, that you can pretty much see with the naked eye then I am wanting to say he has velvet. With the naked eye, what colors are on his tail?

They can breathe some through their gills- I would place him in a small container with 3-4 inches of water so he can reach it easier.


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## Plummedy

Here are better pictures ...

http://imageshack.us/g/197/dsc0127kh.jpg/

I moved him to a container as you can see in the pictures. When I went to pick him up with the net he did attempt to get away, but now even in the shallow container he hasn't come up for air - just laying on his side as you can see in the pictures. I really see no dust color now especially in the new container. How long do I keep him in here with no filter/heater?

He's breathing really heavy now and I'm getting scared


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## Plummedy

Emergency! He came up to get a breath of air finally then back to his side, now his eyes are closing! Any action I can take!?

EDIT: completely closed, body looks puffed up and scales raised slightly!


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## Plummedy

Here are some better pictures again with the latest development

http://imageshack.us/g/442/dsc0133mw.jpg/


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## Plummedy

Sorry for so many responses in a row - I can run to the store and get some epsom salt, is that a good idea? He's currently still in the water that had 1 teaspoon of kosher salt. Should I do a full water change in his big tank just in case he can go back in? I'm at a loss 

EDIT: Missed your post earlier about changing water, will do that now. Should he be out of that kosher salt too? I'm probably stressing the hell out of him.

He isn't completely blind, just taking longer to see food than he used to. I have to guide him a lot more. My other betta fish (separate tank) on that same note has also had the same problem, but lunges at the food a lot more. Maybe it has something to do with the water here?


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## Myates

Sorry.. had to start dinner.. oh wow, quick developments..

This is a hard thing to do right now, as if I do one treatment I think would help, if it's something to do with his swim bladder it can make things worse.. but if it's another thing, then the other treatment will not be done.

My instinct is to tell you to mix in 1-2 teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon with water conditioner and put him in that- can mix it in a gallon jug or pitcher that is clean.. and take out the water he is in, pour in the mix in that and add him to that (making sure to acclimate him first). Daily 100% water changes adding in the salt mix each time.. 

When he goes up for air, can he swim upright? You could just be seeing him stressing with the move right now, the gasping, etc. from the stress..

I wish this little guy gave us more symptoms then this.. a part of me is still debating on using AQ or Epsom- luckily Epsom is gentle on them, so sitting in it for 24 hours will be just fine for him, health wise. I'm going to msg someone to come take a look and see if I'm missing something.


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## Myates

I just PM'd someone who may be able to see what I'm missing, or confirm which treatment to use for him.. for some reason I can't figure out which treatment is best with this guy, and I want to make sure you get the proper help. I hope she will see this soon.. but for now, keep him in the shallow container, as they can be fine without a filter- if he needs, he can get up to get air as you have seen, he is just not doing so without being nudged.


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## Plummedy

Myates said:


> Sorry.. had to start dinner.. oh wow, quick developments..
> 
> This is a hard thing to do right now, as if I do one treatment I think would help, if it's something to do with his swim bladder it can make things worse.. but if it's another thing, then the other treatment will not be done.
> 
> My instinct is to tell you to mix in 1-2 teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon with water conditioner and put him in that- can mix it in a gallon jug or pitcher that is clean.. and take out the water he is in, pour in the mix in that and add him to that (making sure to acclimate him first). Daily 100% water changes adding in the salt mix each time..
> 
> When he goes up for air, can he swim upright? You could just be seeing him stressing with the move right now, the gasping, etc. from the stress..
> 
> I wish this little guy gave us more symptoms then this.. a part of me is still debating on using AQ or Epsom- luckily Epsom is gentle on them, so sitting in it for 24 hours will be just fine for him, health wise. I'm going to msg someone to come take a look and see if I'm missing something.


Thank you - he hasn't come up for air in a long time but his eyes seem to be open again.

I'm a little confused though, I mix it in a jug and leave him in the jug or put him back in his regular tank? The only jug I really have is a giant pickle jar that's almost as tall as his tank anyway - I could leave the snail in a bucket of water so he doesn't have to be in the salt? And what's the thought process of mixing the water he's in now with the new water, to acclimate? There is still some kosher salt in this little container...


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## Plummedy

Myates said:


> I just PM'd someone who may be able to see what I'm missing, or confirm which treatment to use for him.. for some reason I can't figure out which treatment is best with this guy, and I want to make sure you get the proper help. I hope she will see this soon.. but for now, keep him in the shallow container, as they can be fine without a filter- if he needs, he can get up to get air as you have seen, he is just not doing so without being nudged.


Okay, so don't worry about that kosher salt in there? If I leave him in this over night he'll definitely get very cold though 

And yes he did swim upright to get air.


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## Myates

Take him out of the kosher- if it has anything to do with SBD the kosher will make it worse.. use Epsom for now as that is gentle and won't harm, can only help.

I was suggesting using the jug to mix everything to make sure you have the proper measurements.. use the container he is in now with the Epsom Salt mix- cup him, empty container, fill with Epsom salt water mix, place him back in container.. use net to move him as to not allow the kosher salt in with the epsom.


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## Plummedy

Okay I see, but won't temperature be a problem over night? I will be back in 30, running to store for the salt; any particular brand I need? I can check phone at store - thanks so much Myates.


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## Myates

Nope, just make sure it has no perfume/scents/dyes added- just plain Epsom.

If you have another container that is smaller you could tape it to the side of the tank, or use some paper clips to hold it if possible.. Somehow jimmy it to stay and not tip- like a long cooking utensil diagonal across the top.. 

I won't be around much longer- have to start in on my grocery list for tomorrow here after I eat dinner (live in middle of no where woods, takes a long time to get to the closest Walmart so my shopping trips there are for food to last at least a month and a couple carts worth- so it's a long list heh) . I'm so sorry.. I wish there was a magic medicine, but without more symptoms all I can recommend is Epsom Salt.


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## Plummedy

I didn't see anything that said 'espom' - the closest thing I could find without a bunch of stuff in it is 'ingredients: salt and sodium silicoaluminate' ... will this work? otherwise I have generic morton salt, but it has an anti-caking agent in it.


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Plummedy said:


> I didn't see anything that said 'espom' - the closest thing I could find without a bunch of stuff in it is 'ingredients: salt and sodium silicoaluminate' ... will this work? otherwise I have generic morton salt, but it has an anti-caking agent in it.


No, that won't work. Epson salt is magnesium sulfate (or sulphate, depending on where in the world you are). It's commonly used as a laxative (osmotic purgative), so maybe try your pharmacy? You can usually get it in supermarkets, if not in the medicine section, then in the bathroom stuff section.


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## Myates

^ correct.. Walmart carries it.. the brand I have is Swan, 16oz, blue and white box (looks like a little milk carton) I got at Walmart for less then $2. I had to ask someone where it was it- it was close to the pharmacy itself.


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## Plummedy

Okay I went back to the store again. Had no idea it was in medicine section, I looked at 50 different salts in baking section. He's in a little 2 liter container, fastened within his tank so it stays warm. It all seemed very stressful, he's breathing even softer now and is completely on his side. I'm afraid he might not make it. I put 1 teaspoon of epsom salt for 2 liters, which I figured would be almost 2 teaspoons for a gallon.

Wish me luck. His name is Soi by the way. Thanks for all the help.

If he doesn't perk up in the morning, should I put him back in his tank? No salt? Change his small container's water?


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## Pitluvs

I wouldn't put him back into his tank until he makes 100% recovery. The problem with the 10g is he won't have the energy to get to the top for air, keeping him in a small container saves his energy. Tomorrow, change his water with your epsom salts/water mix. If the Epsom salts work, it could take up to 10 days. I really do hope your little guy pulls through, you must be a nervous wreck right now. Regardless of what happens, we're all here for you ok? ((hugs))


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## RoyalBlueDarling

The symptoms really do fit swim bladder disease, so going off that, I'd say to keep him in the epsom salt bath until he has a bowel movement, or up to an hour. I'd take him out after an hour regardless, unless he starts pine coning, which I hope he doesn't ... When was the last time Soi had a bowel movement, do you know?

Maybe Myates is still around to offer more info/help ...


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## Pitluvs

RoyalBlueDarling said:


> The symptoms really do fit swim bladder disease, so going off that, I'd say to keep him in the epsom salt bath until he has a bowel movement, or up to an hour. I'd take him out after an hour regardless, unless he starts pine coning, which I hope he doesn't ... When was the last time Soi had a bowel movement, do you know?
> 
> Maybe Myates is still around to offer more info/help ...


With a low dose of 1-2tsp, he should be kept in the salts as to not cause more stress. Epsom salts will not harm him. 


Plummedy, please wait for Myates to come back. Maybe send her a PM so she doesn't forget to check on you and Soi?


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Pitluvs said:


> With a low dose of 1-2tsp, he should be kept in the salts as to not cause more stress. Epsom salts will not harm him.
> 
> 
> Plummedy, please wait for Myates to come back. Maybe send her a PM so she doesn't forget to check on you and Soi?


Yeah, I'm still thinking about this fish, too. I still think that 1-2 tsp is an unnecessarily high dose to keep him in for a prolonged period of time (a smaller dose would still draw fluid out), however, if his main tank still has the kosher/aquarium salt in it then you definitely want to keep him out of it, because it may do the complete opposite of the epsom (draw the fluid back in).


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## Pitluvs

RoyalBlueDarling said:


> Yeah, I'm still thinking about this fish, too. I still think that 1-2 tsp is an unnecessarily high dose to keep him in for a prolonged period of time (a smaller dose would still draw fluid out), however, if his main tank still has the kosher/aquarium salt in it then you definitely want to keep him out of it, because it may do the complete opposite of the epsom (draw the fluid back in).


The recommended treatment for SBD is 1-2 (even 3) tsp of Epsom salts for a period of 1-2 days and up to 10 days if the condition is severe. I have treated my own fish with 10days followed by another 7 days of Epsom salts (1tsp per gallon) with no ill effects. I agree, the kosher salt needs to go though  Also, Epsoms is a laxative. 



> Swim Bladder Disease (SBD)/Bloat
> •Symptoms: Betta has trouble swimming, maybe he can’t stay upright and can only swim on his side.
> •Treatment: This is not a contagious or fatal illness. If it isn’t congenital (aka a condition that he/she has had since birth), then it is caused by over feeding or feeding the wrong foods. Bettas will typically recover after a day or two of Epsom Salt treatments (1-2tsp/gal) and fasting. You can help prevent a reoccurrence by switching to a better pellet food, feeding less and offering a more varied diet. To make it easier for the betta to eat and breath, you can make the water shallower. You can offer him/her frozen daphnia (sold at Petsmart) as daphnia will help him/her pass stool. DO NOT FEED THEM PEAS.


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Pitluvs said:


> Also, Epsoms is a laxative.


Yep, see my first comment in this thread. 

I shall defer to the voice of experience. (They're really tough little fish, aren't they?)

Hope he pulls through.


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## Pitluvs

RoyalBlueDarling said:


> Yep, see my first comment in this thread.
> 
> I shall defer to the voice of experience. (They're really tough little fish, aren't they?)
> 
> Hope he pulls through.


You're telling me, I have one here that survived Dropsy  it's amazing what they can recover from 

-------

Myates come back, you are the go to gal here!! I don't do this stuff anymore!!


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## Plummedy

Well this morning he's still not doing well, but he's alive. He's laying on his side and when he swam just a bit when I came over, it was an awkward swim. I have to head to work; when I get back I should change the water with the same epsom salt solution? 100% change?

I've noticed a few things this morning. His eye (the one I can see, he's on his side) is cloudy white, his gill and fins were quivering/twitching after he tried, but failed to reach the top of the water, and his scales look slightly raised still if not more. I did notice a small piece of what I think is poop in the container. It's brownish, round.


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## Plummedy

Now he's unresponsive to my touch, pushing him around and he won't move. I don't think he's breathing any more. He might be dead


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## Plummedy

Yep, he's dead. He hung on all night and decided it was time to go right when I came over I guess. It's very sad, I had to watch him die. I think he made one final push to get air and maybe that's what did it. I feel bad like I should've helped, but I guess it was bound to happen sometime today if I weren't there.

I still really want to figure out what happened because I have another betta fish in basically the same conditions minus the snail. He also has been having trouble see his food and lunging at it - his body is bloated much larger than usual as well. I'll do a full water parameter check tonight.

Thank you for all the help. He was a very good betta fish, I'll have a good cry over it.


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Plummedy said:


> Well this morning he's still not doing well, but he's alive. He's laying on his side and when he swam just a bit when I came over, it was an awkward swim. I have to head to work; when I get back I should change the water with the same epsom salt solution? 100% change?
> 
> I've noticed a few things this morning. His eye (the one I can see, he's on his side) is cloudy white, his gill and fins were quivering/twitching after he tried, but failed to reach the top of the water, and his scales look slightly raised still if not more. I did notice a small piece of what I think is poop in the container. It's brownish, round.


Very sad to say it, but it sounds like dropsy. I hope I'm wrong, but the cloudy eyes coupled with the pine-coning ... Studies show that Augmentin is the best antibiotic for fighting this. Continue with epsom salt (it's sort of like having him on dialysis).

Best of luck.


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Plummedy said:


> Yep, he's dead. He hung on all night and decided it was time to go right when I came over I guess. It's very sad, I had to watch him die. I think he made one final push to get air and maybe that's what did it. I feel bad like I should've helped, but I guess it was bound to happen sometime today if I weren't there.
> 
> I still really want to figure out what happened because I have another betta fish in basically the same conditions minus the snail.
> 
> Thank you for all the help. He was a very good betta fish, I'll have a good cry over it.


Sorry for your loss.  I got an email telling me there was an update in this thread, but it didn't give me the last update, but your morning one. 

Dropsy is very, very hard to cure. You did really well.


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## Plummedy

RoyalBlueDarling said:


> Sorry for your loss.  I got an email telling me there was an update in this thread, but it didn't give me the last update, but your morning one.
> 
> Dropsy is very, very hard to cure. You did really well.


Thank you. How could it come on so suddenly, what causes it? Again, want to make sure my other betta is fine - I edited my last post with his symptoms too.


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Plummedy said:


> Thank you. How could it come on so suddenly, what causes it? Again, want to make sure my other betta is fine - I edited my last post with his symptoms too.


The cause of dropsy is unknown, but it is kidney failure, so it can be caused by a number of things: bacterial/viral, some other internal problem (e.g parasites, tumours) that ultimately leads to the kidneys shutting down, water quality problems over an extended period of time (such as pH fluctuations, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, or overuse of aquarium salt). The first signs are a swollen abdomen, pine-coning, and rapid breathing. Then the eyes start clouding over. The first symptoms are sluggish behaviour and loss of appetite.

Did he share a tank with your other betta? If so, the only common thing is the water ... Otherwise I would suspect something aerial, such as somebody using a spray near the tank and getting toxins into the water ...

If it is bacterial/viral strong antibiotics can kill it, coupled with increasing the water temperature to almost 30 degrees celsius (which really puts the metabolism into overdrive--it's the exact same response as when a human is febrile; the high temperature increases the metabolism and also creates an environment in which the virus cannot survive), but you've got a battle on your hands. If he stops eating, it's impossible to keep his immune system strong enough to beat it. And of course epsom salt to purge the excess fluid/help the kidneys.

I'm sure others on the forum have more experience.


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## RoyalBlueDarling

Time for me to get some sleep. Wishing you luck for your other betta.


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## Plummedy

They haven't shared a tank at all. I did notice sluggish behavior and slight loss of appetite maybe, but nothing else until it all came on suddenly. The other betta just has a swollen belly and a little trouble seeing food, but eyes don't look cloudy. I don't want to treat him with anything too heavy and it end up just being him getting fat or something. Should I just fast him a few days then maybe feed a pea and see how that goes?

Thanks again Royal.


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## Myates

I'm so sorry you lost your little guy.. 

Like I mentioned before, it happened quickly with little signs other then the obvious.. and treatments could of gone either way. 

You did the correct amount of Epsom salt- don't worry there. AQ salt would of made SBD problems worse, so we had to go the Epsom route first to rule out SBD without putting him in more known danger- but possibility of not giving the correct medication was a risk because of that. I suspected velvet, but since he looks like that is his natural coloration, I didn't want the risk of AQ salt. It was a dilemma that I kept going over in my head around and around trying to find the best solution. But it came down to his swim bladder and the safety of that at first. 
I am so sorry.. even if with the proper medication, it sounded as if he was going regardless, especially with just in such a short period his behavior and even his eye, have changed.
The pine coning at the end was the result of his organs shutting down.. as well as I believe the cloudiness of his eyes. 

You did what you could, with what little time you had.. there was nothing more you could of done. It was just his time.. sadly.

I wouldn't do the pea method on him- it is for goldfish who is constipated. People use it on bettas because some have success with it.. just have to keep in mind that the bettas can not digest it properly, nor is their intestines set up to handle that sort of roughage. 
In the wild, bettas will get their roughage through the stomachs of their prey, and our domesticated bettas get it in the food already processed. In goldfish, it's the fiber that helps them go to the bathroom that the pea does- but in bettas it's pretty much just an object pushing through their intestines that will, in turn, push out any blockage- at the risk of causing a block with the pea.
It's not ideal to use, some use it with success, but personally, it's still not worth the risk or health.

Fasting for a few days, and even 1 tsp of Epsom ( per gallon, daily 100% water changes, adding in the Epsom each time) will help if he is truly bloated/constipated. 
Fish don't get fat in the sense we know it as- they don't get fat on their bodies... There a way to get a pic of him?


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## Plummedy

Well I will give him a good burial tomorrow. There are pictures of my other betta here,

http://imageshack.us/g/193/dsc0151ci.jpg/

Like I said - conditions/treatment of tank are identical as to the first page I filled out. This betta is older (named Plum) - maybe 2 years old. Here's a picture from when I first got him,

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1653/plumtw.jpg

I realize he looks a lot better there, but I promise I've been treating him very well, he's spoiled. Those darker spots on his body have been there for nearly a year probably, they formed at some point. Only two symptoms I've noticed is that he has a much harder time finding/seeing his food and lunges at it ... and the bulging stomach. Both symptoms have been going on for about 3 months I'd say, maybe a bit more.

Another question - my snail is all alone in a 10 gallon tank now, should I transplant him to my other betta tank?


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## Myates

Again I am sorry you lost your little guy :-(

Cute guy.. he's getting up there in age. Those spots look normal and fine on him.. 

He could use a good fasting for 2-3 days though lol.. little piggies they are!

How much is he eating a day, and how many times a day?

Is it possible (sorry to bother you with it..) but could you get two more pictures up? One of his tail- if you can get him to flare it open that would be great. I see it is small, rough looking and in one or two pictures it looks like it is black at the edges- I want to see whether or not he has fin rot. 

Also, a picture looking down on him to get a better angle on his eyes, to see whether or not it is possible he has popeye and that is why he isn't able to see very well to eat.

Both of those things may not be the case- but I rather rule it out if possible. For now, no more food for a few days little one!


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## Plummedy

Here's a few more with an attempt at better shots. I didn't even notice this until seeing it in the pictures, there does seem to be some green junk on the back of his tail. Is this fin rot? His tank is usually pretty clean - there was an algae problem for awhile when I was busy and it was more like 60% once every two weeks, maybe that's what did it.

I was feeding him 4 pellets in the morning and 4 at night until he started looking so fat, I've been feeding half that for about a month, maybe less. After a few day fast, should I go back to a smaller feeding?

http://imageshack.us/g/23/dsc0150qo.jpg/

Thanks so much again for the help Myates.


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## Pitluvs

Sorry to hear about your other boy  He was some lucky to have you, someone who cares.


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## Plummedy

Thank you ... I took it hard this morning, I grow very attached to animals. But putting my focus on my other betta will help.

I just read the symptoms of fin rot and I feel like an idiot for not noticing it sooner. His fins have been fraying and not looking as healthy for awhile, but I just attributed it to old age. It sounds like I need to go buy medicine for this?


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## Myates

So he's been on the reduced feedings for a month and is still bloated up?
Okay, here is the gross part.. if you can at some point, see what color his waste is. If it's brown-ish red then it's fine, but if it's stringy and white then he may have a case of internal parasites. 

Otherwise, yes, after his fasting then I would stick with 2 in the morning and 2 at night. If after 3 days of not eating and he is still bloated like that, let us know and we can do the Epsom treatment which generally works quickly if it's just bloating/constipation.

As for the fins- it does look like he has fin rot. It is the bacteria form, and what happens is at some point he got a tiny rip/tear in it, or bit it and bacteria started to gang up on it. Normally it happens when the water is not-so clean.. 

Go ahead and start him on 2 tsp of AQ salt, daily 100% water changes, for no longer then 10 days. Don't forget to add in the water conditioner.. 

You will have to float it/tape it into the tank like before, covering with seran wrap if you have it, or a lid (poke holes in the wrap, make sure there is a slit in the lid for air) so he can breathe and not jump out. The seran wrap is healthier if you have it- tape it to the opening. The humidity that comes from using it is quite good for their labyrinth organ.

That should take care of the rot- once you see clear-white coloration on the edges of the fins then you know the fin is growing back out.

I honestly couldn't tell about his eyes- if they don't look swollen to you then it may just him being a little blind from age.

One thing though- which I should of mentioned, but glad I caught.. woops! (been a long day heh)

Don't do the Epsom and the AQ salt at the same time- right now we need to get the stomach down some- so do the 3 day fasting, if he's not better then do the Epsom Salt treatment (1 tsp per gallon, daily 100% water change- just like the AQ salt).. that should only take a couple of days to work. After he is better and not a round tumbly little guy anymore, you can focus on the fin rot. 
Reason behind madness= the extended stomach can lead to different problems, such as SBD, and bloating.. the fin rot moves slowly over time and will take a bit longer to get to the body. 

I'm off for the night, if you have any more questions, just ask or if something changes in his health, you can PM Sakura8 and hopefully she'll be around.. just tell her I sent you and she'll just most likely laugh  Wish you the best!


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## Pitluvs

Finrot can be cured with clean warm water and frequent water changes. you can also use Aquarium Salt for finrot. I have not experiences finrot yet, so I am not much help with that. Myates would be the one to consult about it  

I took it REALLY hard when I lost my Venom and Carnage in the same week (my first two) but you keep going. There is always another neglected pet store Betta out there that could use that extra space and would love you for it. I find giving my Bettas warm clean home to another that may not have that luck, a very rewarding thing. Kinda softens the blow I guess.


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## Myates

Plummedy said:


> Thank you ... I took it hard this morning, I grow very attached to animals. But putting my focus on my other betta will help.
> 
> I just read the symptoms of fin rot and I feel like an idiot for not noticing it sooner. His fins have been fraying and not looking as healthy for awhile, but I just attributed it to old age. It sounds like I need to go buy medicine for this?


It is funny how we can get so attached to the smallest of things 

AQ salt should be all that you need to rid it- there are medications for it, but the conservative such as the salt tends to work just as good and be gentler/safer for the fish.

And don't be hard on yourself, you didn't know.. we all learn things all the time during our care of animals 

Lol you beat me again Pit!
I never experienced fin rot personally (and yet he trusts me! hehe) but what she said is true- normally clean water works, but since I believe his case is advanced quite a bit, AQ salt will be the next best option.


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## Plummedy

2 tsp for 10 gallons? Is this the aquarium salt you buy at the pet store? Also, can I treat this in his regular tank rather than floating him? He seems to be swimming just fine right now.

I'll start with a water change, will have to go get AQ salt tomorrow.

The world is lucky to have people like you who offer help for free, especially those who can't help themselves! Thanks a billion


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## Myates

Oh oops! 2 tsp _per gallon_ of AQ salt, daily water changes, water conditioner.. after he is no longer bloated.. the rot won't do much over the next 3-6 days needed to get his belly down.

Okay, now I'm off to go do.. something or other around the house.. oh yeah, let dog out. Goodnight!

Aww and thank you! Just glad I can help


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## Britta013

*Same problem!*

I have a female betta and have had her about a year. She has always been in the same tank with the same plants/surroundings. I use the same water out of the spout with the same water conditioner and occasionally aquarium salt and betta care water additive. She was always super active swimming around and always ate like a lil piggy! I would feed her every other day or so so she would not get constipated. I have never had a problem until now. 

I noticed about a week ago that she was just sitting at the bottom of her tank, swimming occasionally. I completely cleaned out the tank a couple days before so I didn't think that could be the case-regardless I did a 50% water change. Nothing has changed in her behavior since then. I was reading this post and did notice her fin had split (and looked as one of the users second fish) after doing another continuous water change so I added aquarium salt in the amount suggested. Her fin has healed tremendously but she is still sitting at the bottom. She will occasionally swim to the surface but it is erratic and then she just lays on the bottom of the tank gulping through her gills. 

I have continuously done 25% to 75% water changes with all the right water conditioners (nothing different than I have ever done before) so I don't think it could be the water quality. She has a heater and a thermometer and is kept at about a constant 78-82 degrees Fahrenheit. I also have a filter and have always had one to gently clean the debri. It is currently off so she does not have to struggle to get to the surface even though the current is light and she is used to it. It is a 2.5 gallon tank.

Any suggestions???


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