# Breeding VTs...



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I have been seeing more and more people telling new breeders not to breed VTs.

If I may ask.. warn them that at this current time they aren't as popular and may take a bit longer to sell in the US, but that it is still just fine to breed them if one wishes. I have seen a few people outright tell people don't do it. That isn't fair.. if this person is willing to spend the hours a day, the hundreds of dollars to breed a fish they love.. then lets support them rather than tell them NO. We aren't here to deter people from doing something they want to do.

VTs are making some comeback due to the fact they are now incorporating certain traits in them such as dragonscale, etc. If someone is wanting to bring in some unique colors and patterns into VTs then that is great and people will purchase them for the same price as a good HM. 

In the US (as other countries still love VTs, breed them and show them) they started getting ignored by breeders/showers because they were so commonplace in stores and breeders couldn't compete with the prices you find at places such as Walmart. So they came up with other fin types, etc to show and sell. Now those too are very popular and commonplace and no longer "special".

Many breeders want to breed quality VTs and show them once more - and some people are working on that with the IBC. VTs aren't any less of a fish because of the fin type - and breeders know that.. people who show bettas know that. But demand is for the other fin types, which is what caused the demise of VT breeding. The ones who made VTs "not desirable" are in fact people who just purchase bettas for pets, and people telling others they aren't worth it, not to breed, etc. 

So please.. let people breed whatever type they wish to. There is nothing wrong with VTs, and if some people get their way in the IBC, they will be showing VTs once more and the demand for them among people in the business will go up. 

This is all just my opinion/view on this subject.. I have warned people that it may be a bit harder to sell the average VT, but in the end, it's their choice and if others tell them not to, then they may not end up breeding at all. I am actually considering getting some quality female VTs and breeding dragonscale into them down the road as I have felt "forced" to breed HMs due to people in the mindset that the VTs aren't "worth anything". And if they are allowed to be shown in the IBC, I will be breeding them in a heartbeat.

Show a little love for VTs and support the breeders who want to help make these little guys have a nice comeback


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## mellcrowl (Jan 20, 2013)

Agreed! I personally love VT and if I saw a dragonscale or butterfly VT pair, I'd snatch them up in seconds


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

my only problem with VT's stems from the fact that they HAVE been ignored by serious breeders, and hence we get a population mostly composed of puppy-milled, unhealthy fish that seem overwhelmingly to fall into the drab blue-and-red mishmash of fish we've seen a million times. if more serious breeders who produce high-quality VT's either intentionally or by simply not culling the VT's out of their HM and CT spawns, the more credibility the tail type will have on the show circuit, and the more "worthwhile" the breed will become. it's sad that an entire class of fish is poo-pooed simply for reasons of fashion.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The other fin types are now starting to fall into the "fishy mills" category too.. they still produce the VTs for stores such as Walmart, but they see the popularity of the other styles and are now starting to get them out there just like the VTs.. people want a certain type, those types will be mass produced and lower quality just the same.

A lot of serious breeders do want to breed VT, but it largely falls on the consumer - can breed some awesome VTs, but because it's a red or a blue, then, as you said, no one will buy it because it's a red.. a blue.. it's that mentality that keeps VTs on the poor side. If people understood the characteristics of a VT, and appreciated what they could be.. then they wouldn't be "drab", but instead a really pretty dalmation, a vivid red, etc. It's the mindset that some have in saying they can't be as pretty, or they aren't as pretty. 
HMs, CT, DT, etc can and do fall into that category of unhealthy mishmash.. it's how they are kept, both at stores and with the majority of betta owners. VTs aren't unhealthier than an HM - they all start out the same.. it's the fact people are picking other variations over VTs that are leaving the VTs longer in the stores and therefor becoming sickly. Also many people associate droopy fins with being sickly, especially people new to the hobby as they are seeing the other types all big and full.
Some breeders will go where the money is.. so hey, someone willing to spend $20 on this one red HM then I'm breeding it.. nevermind this red VT that is exactly alike other than fin type I have bred.. they will only pay $4 for that. 

They have credibility on most show circuits outside of the US, they are allowed in shows other than the IBC, which hopefully that changes this coming summer. 
But you are correct, it's sad how they had fallen down in status for no reason other than they were more readily available.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I have limited experience as a fish owner, and I'm not a breeder.... but my two VTs have had fewer health issues than my HMs. They're also larger. (And they don't bite their tails!)

I would *love* to have a butterfly or multicolor VT.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i've a VT who bites his tail. it's not just an HM thing. x:

i agree with the whole fish-mill problem. if you can find a pair that is from a place that sells healthy veils, and if you can find homes for all the little babies, go for it. 

my own local pet store gets their bettas from a breeder(not a company), so i see many unique colors in veils. i have an almost black veil, i've had yellow, marble, dal, i've a red-orange boy. then, there was the GREEN CT. not turquoise, outright GREEN. something i've only seen in photoshopped pictures. and, they've never had tumors or hunch-back/spoon-head, nor other issues most mill-fish seem to have. so, i'd feel okay with breeding veils from there. walmart? nah. petsmart? nope. *maybe* Pet-co...


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I really want to breed nicer VTs but that would mean buying pet store fish and I'm done with that. It's not pet store fish I'm against it's the farms. They mass produce and diseases are always getting passed through to fish and then to fish room. 

If Aquastar sells pairs of his amazing VTs I'll buy those.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I prefer other tail types but I've had some pretty veiltails like my peach colored dalmatian.


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## Sagat (Dec 13, 2012)

I've been looking for the perfect marble dragonscale VT for awhile now and have had such poor luck I started getting desperate ideas of breeding VTs myself.

If there are real breeders who are interested in breeding VTs, I'll happily support them by buying as many bettas as I can.


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## Cole mccallister (Nov 5, 2012)

is it commen for a vt veiltail to have a heart shaped veil in full bloom


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Could you be talking about a doubletail betta? Some DTs don't have an extremely distinct split.

I'm a firm believer in letting people breed whatever they want as long as they do it ethically and humanely, and take responsibility for the animals they breed and the offsprings that result.


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## Cole mccallister (Nov 5, 2012)

Fenghuang said:


> Could you be talking about a doubletail betta? Some DTs don't have an extremely distinct split.
> 
> I'm a firm believer in letting people breed whatever they want as long as they do it ethically and humanely, and take responsibility for the animals they breed and the offsprings that result.


no split just double rounded areas that are one piece but looks like a heart the bottem being the body of fish


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

none of my vt's ever had heart shaped fins.

One thing i hate about most vt's at petshops now a days is that their tails are so thin and pathetic. I can't even imagine how anyone finds them pretty. I like my boy, he has a nice full tail that doesn't seem to taper to a point. When he flares it looks like a flag and it's not too long. He had what I consider a prefect tail for a vt. Nice and round at the end too, I see less good looking vt's at petshops every year. It's gotten to a point of being very hard to find vt's with nice tails I don't even bother with them anymore. I only took in Hollow because someone owned him and didn't care for him properly, he turned out to be one of the rare boys with a good full tail.


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## Cole mccallister (Nov 5, 2012)

LadyVictorian said:


> none of my vt's ever had heart shaped fins.
> 
> One thing i hate about most vt's at petshops now a days is that their tails are so thin and pathetic. I can't even imagine how anyone finds them pretty. I like my boy, he has a nice full tail that doesn't seem to taper to a point. When he flares it looks like a flag and it's not too long. He had what I consider a prefect tail for a vt. Nice and round at the end too, I see less good looking vt's at petshops every year. It's gotten to a point of being very hard to find vt's with nice tails I don't even bother with them anymore. I only took in Hollow because someone owned him and didn't care for him properly, he turned out to be one of the rare boys with a good full tail.


 hmm well i have found plenty of big veils at wal-mart the only place they sell female vts and cts but are so lazy they just lable female and never mention what kind of females but males are fine thooo.... i prefer a natural look lol


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## VeilTail (Dec 16, 2012)

My boy Wally has one of the longest tails I have seen on a VT. It is around three inches on his tail. Walmart rescue.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Heart Tail Betta are actually a type of Double Tail. The split of the double tail only occurs at the outer edge of the caudal creating a notch in the tail forming a heart shape. Although this strain is just a "faulty" Double Tail, it is highly sought after. Many people trying to develop this strain end up with true complete Double-tails.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

VeilTail said:


> My boy Wally has one of the longest tails I have seen on a VT. It is around three inches on his tail. Walmart rescue.


In my book long means nothing if it's thin. It has to be round at the end, not taper to a point or look like a long little twig following the fish. Sorta more my idea of what a veiltail should look like is this.










and not this, which is what I see a lot and it's just...well I would never buy them, they look sickly.










The skiny thin tail no matter if it's long or not looks weird. Fuller larger tails with a little less length look nicer IMO


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The first picture is showing a VT with a good portion of his fin missing. The second one shows a vt in motion which sometimes creates the thin impression.

Some will hold their fins more open though, I've had success in keeping the VTs I had keep their tails spread by giving them a good flaring a couple times a day to build up those muscles.

I do understand what you are saying though, and I agree having some flare is better than complete droop..

Here is pretty much the closest to what is considered to be the standard - elongated tail with some droop and down to a rounded tip.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I like vt, but I disagree with you. A veiltail Will never sell for as much as a halfmoon because they are so common, and there are millions of vt dying on the shelves that people could rescue but instead are contributing even more to the problem.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem paying as much as I would for halfmoons for veiltails that look like these:





































Yes, common sense--the majority of people are shallow by nature and won't be willing to pay as much for common ugly fish as they would be willing to pay for rare, nice looking fish. But the other tail types aren't all that rare either. Some stores don't even sell veiltails anymore. All they have are HMs, DTs, and CTs, and lots of them. Trust me, I've seen some really ugly ones and wonder who the heck would pay eight to ten dollars (if not more) for them. Quality VTs are not the common. If I see an unique looking VT with nice fins, I may pass up a HM for one. It's a matter of taste and opinion.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

My boy Hollow keeps his tail nice and flared out, he's also a very athletic guy, for someone with a larger heaver tail he's swam under very strong filter currents without too much issue. BUT then again I also know for a fact Hollow was used for fighting or for training fighters, he has scars ALL over his face and when I got him his fins were bit to hell, not torn but bitten and Hollow isn't a tail bitter. He's also a big guy for a veiltail, his body is about 2.6-7 inches not including his tail and he's thick all over. I use to wonder if it was possible that one of his parents was a giant PK.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> I like vt, but I disagree with you. A veiltail Will never sell for as much as a halfmoon because they are so common, and there are millions of vt dying on the shelves that people could rescue but instead are contributing even more to the problem.


The right VT will sell for the same, if not more. People with that mindset and ideals and telling others that they are worthless are what is keeping them down. 

Ah, but see, the talk through the show breeders is that many are wanting to bring back VTs into shows (and it's being worked on), which means these little fish will once again be bred (by other than betta farms) for quality. I have seen dragonscales in VTs popping up, Thai Flags are popular, etc etc.. so much can be placed with a VT now to make them look just as good as any other fish. It's because a lot of people want pretty fish to go "look at mine look at mine!", and they think the way for it is to have the "newer" varieties.. so now the quality of those types are going down the drain too because demand is so high.

Bring in the good show breeders, bringing up the quality of VTs and making them healthier and in some cases, better looking than HMs, CTs, etc.. then they will be all the rage too once more. It's a follow the crowd type of hype with these fish.. just like with a lot of other things - mix two dog breeds and OMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT DALPOODLAPUGGY!!! Then it's old news in a year or so. VTs were what was available the most, other tails were developed and refined and then they were the must haves, etc etc. 

So.. lets bring back the classic and make them worth something.. and just because they are all blue or red doesn't make them any less pretty.. you don't look at a red or blue HM and go "Ugh.. same old blue/red".. nope, in your mind because it is a HM/CT/PK, etc it's automatically beautiful.


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## VeilTail (Dec 16, 2012)

I love VeilTails personally, although all Bettas are great. Wally's tail isn't thin and isn't claimed together, his tail is always spread and he loves flaring.


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## Caii (Jan 17, 2013)

Though I'm new to the betta scene and -slightly- biased, I think that VT's (no matter the color) are beautiful and worth just as much as an HM or CT. 

They're also the first image of a betta that popped into my mind when talking about the fish, and I would hope that people could take that popularity and use it more to the advantage to the breed itself as opposed to saying, "Oh, it's common. Not worth it." Granted, my VT Bo has an interesting coloring in my eyes, but in the end, people love (or should love) their pets for their personality. 

I think it would be amazing to see a greater color variety in VT's, but at the same time, I think it would be even better if the VT's themselves weren't downplayed by the pet stores. In a perfect world, pet stores like PetSmart or places that sell betta fish would keep their betta fish in conditions that would let the betta thrive in their natural glow until finding their forever homes~ if that were to ever happen, I think every fish would be valued so much more.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Myrates, I agree with you. Vts need to be properly bred. But very few people are going to buy a $35 dollar veil tail,"breeding quality" or not, when you can go to any pet store and but a very nice colored fish for three dollars. It would also be simply irresponsible to start breeding veil tails now because 1) You will have a hard time selling them, and 2) Like I said in my first comment, there are millions of vts dying on the shelves, waiting to be rescued. When you breed more vts, you are only making this problem worse. In a way it is cruel to the fish already on The shelves. 

If the ibc would just make a class it would help this problem a lot.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Millions of bettas of all kinds are dying on the shelves. By your logic, betta breeders should stop breeding their fish altogether because it would be cruel to the bettas on the shelves. But should good, dedicated responsible breeders stop breeding because commerical fish farms can churn out betta after betta after betta with no concern for quality control?

The majority of the people that come out of a big chain petstore with a $3 fish wouldn't have paid $35 for another fish regardless. It's not so most much that most of the ones that get a cheap VT from Walmart think "oh, the VT aren't as good as the HM" as it is that they don't care and just want a cheap, disposable pet. The target market is completely different when we're talking about the average petstore buyer and the breeders that import fancy betta from abroad. Tail type has nothing to do with it. So, it would be like comparing apples to oranges to use them to generalize why people shouldn't breed veiltails even if they want to and are willing to spend the time, energy, and money.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

> Millions of bettas of all kinds are dying on the shelves. By your logic, betta breeders should stop breeding their fish altogether because it would be cruel to the bettas on the shelves. But should good, dedicated responsible breeders stop breeding because commerical fish farms can churn out betta after betta after betta with no concern for quality control?
> 
> The majority of the people that come out of a big chain petstore with a $3 fish wouldn't have paid $35 for another fish regardless. It's not so most much that most of the ones that get a cheap VT from Walmart think "oh, the VT aren't as good as the HM" as it is that they don't care and just want a cheap, disposable pet. The target market is completely different when we're talking about the average petstore buyer and the breeders that import fancy betta from abroad. Tail type has nothing to do with it. So, it would be like comparing apples to oranges to use them to generalize why people shouldn't breed veiltails even if they want to and are willing to spend the time, energy, and money.



Um no, that is not my logic at all. Half moons and all of the other tail types have a very high turnover rate. Some half moons on aquabid are gone within a day. Good luck EVER selling a veiltail on aquabid. I have seen a (nice) vt at the store, came back and dead three weeks later. So no, they do not sell much. And if they do, they are generally doomed from the start. Do you even know how many fish you can get from a spawn? Over 300. You will NOT sell three hundred veiltails. So, what do you do with the remainder? Give them to pet stores? Cull them? Either way, it is cruel to the fish. Until we can get responsible breeders and the ibc on board, it is a irresponsible act to breed vts.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Okay. So how can show regulations and standards on VTs be changed if people are being advised not to breed them? Experimenting and working on improving breeds must happen in the first place to bring about a change, no? It seems like a bit of a paradox to say that responsible breeders need to be on board and also saying that breeding veiltails is irresponsible.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

The fact is, pestores overbreed them, and then disease among them spreads, and they get a bad reputation for being bad fish altogether. If people stop buying from petstores, and start out breeding beautiful veiltails, but sell them for cheaper then the petstore ones, they will sell faster, and a good reputation for them will grow. Simple as that


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## kandaila (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't know too much about betta keeping but I have seen similar issues in any group that includes people who are dedicated breeders v.s. people who are looking to breed based on how much they can sell the offspring for. I work in the veterinary profession and just because someone is breeding a "quality" breed doesn't mean they are breeding "quality" pets. (I've seen 4 separate kittens from a dedicated Siberian breeder who all had severe health issues that would have been easily prevented with proper care and better breeding.) 
We see so many VTs in pet stores because that is where this started. I feel that other breeds are creeping into the pet store and just because they are fancier breeds doesn't mean you're going to get a better fish. If you go to walmart or other chains you're quite likely to see quite a few crowntails next to all the veil tails. If veil tails are to improve as a breed we need quality breeders who know how to improve the breed and bring focus back onto their best qualities.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you! But liliandquigly, no one is going to sell "breeding quality" fish for cheaper then at the pet store.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

exactly, because right now, to the average petstore buyer, veiltails are just the common boring unhealthy blue and red fish. If breeders bring in good quality fish, and sell them for cheaper, the good qualities in the fish will be brought out in it will be just..awesome


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

But no breeder is going to sell cheaper then factory raised pet store fish.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> Thank you! But liliandquigly, no one is going to sell "breeding quality" fish for cheaper then at the pet store.


I know no one would, but if someone did, I'm just saying at first, that could help a lot


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Breeders sell for a better price because A.) the time care, and quality put into their fish and B.) to keep their fish out of the hands of none serious fish keepers who will just kill them in dirty bowls. Any breeder who sells less than store price is likely selling to stores and isn't breeding good quality fish, just more petshop mill 'puppies'.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Pardon me, I never did say that I was for everyone breeding VTs to suit their whims and fancies without any thought, planning, or experience. I apologize if I gave anyone that impression. I want good breeders improving VTs and setting better standards for them. But I don't understand how responsible breeders can get a foothold and establish a distinguished line of VTs if their VTs will supposedly never sell regardless of the stock and quality they come from next to other tail types. That simply does not make sense to me. A breeder has to start someone.


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## kandaila (Jan 20, 2013)

Quality breeders will never be able to compete with the average pet store for the person looking for a cheap pet. People who are breeding veil tails need to attract the interest of other breeders and bring the breed back into focus to increase the quality of the breed. If breeders improve the breed and advertised an improved breed people will begin to notice and compare. Very similar to people who buy something that is made with all natural products vs the cheaper easier to get variety. That way when someone goes to look for a veil tail they are more likely to choose the healthier, better colored, and nicer fish rather than the common blue/red betta you see in the pet stores.
We need breeders that will improve quality and are able to promote the higher quality fish. People are willing to pay more for a comparable product if they can understand the care that is put into producing something better than the competition.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

The one thing I will say, the three male vt's on aquabid's have been there a long time and still haven't sold yet. 

So even with good breeders it will still be a while until they will sell. However if IBC added them then I can see them doing well again.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Exactly what I was trying to say about different target markets, kandalia. I guess I didn't phrase it well enough...

The point is, I don't think breeders who are willing, dedicated, and genuinely interested in producing good quality VTs should be discouraged simply because "they won't sell" or "most will have to be culled." The status quo won't change with that mindset.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

The main issue is getting breeders SERIOUS in vt's. Since they can't be shown and a lot of breeders breed for showing it makes it kind of hard. I mean if you got a small group together and breed within that group, swapped spawn and tried to get a nice line together. Maybe a FEW people who really love vt's would buy from you simply because perhaps your fish will have more variety in colors/better health. Even if you can get breeders together it seems more people are more interested in HM, HMPK, PK, DeT, DT, heck even a lot of CT and interesting new tail types. 

Maybe throwing a twist like DTVT's, EEVT??? Might get other breeders into them?


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## kandaila (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm all for adding things to a breed if it will interest serious breeders/owners, but the original post stated that those who want to breed VT shouldn't be discouraged just because they're choosing veil tails over halfmoons or other IBC breeds. As long as they are the type of person who is going to put effort into the breed, not just because they can make some quick cash selling the babies, I think they should encouraged not told that their bettas will never sell just because they are veil tails. Even if they don't sell great, and have to be practically given away for a while, having people with extra time and money enough to experiment with some veil tails will hopefully improve the breed, and bring more interest from people who like other types.


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## shawnee (Jan 23, 2013)

I think after i finish with my white full moons i will try to maby try to breed kings with a top of the line v tail just for the heck of it although it sounds kinda ify to me


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

It will probably be a slow process... That goes without saying. But if there are patient people that want to breed veiltails for the betterment of the breed, they have to start somewhere. Eventually, they can get to introducing new and different things, but they have to build up from some foundation. Patient people with the determination and motivation to do it shouldn't just be told that they will fail or that they are being irresponsible.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Introducing ee to vt would be near impossible, because even if you breed a ee to a ee you usually have to wait until f3 to see it, that is how recessive it is. I wonder if we could start a serious petition to the ibc demanding veil tail becomes a recognized class?


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Aren't a bunch of people in IBC trying to bring them back already?

Also the other issue with breeding vt's is where do you get your starting stock? Petshops? No thanks, those fish are not healthy animals and most are culls or from huge mills with no recorded background. There are also very few with good form, most of them I see have messy toplines. How do you fix these?


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Wait, is the ee trait controlled by multiple genes then? In simple recessive heredity, a recessive trait would only show if both pairs of alleles were recessive. So, a recessive-recessive cross should only result in offspring with recessive traits? (Sorry for derailing, extremely curious about the genetic mechanics of things...)


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

LadyV, you do realize most breeders with champion lines.. those lines started with store bettas, right? I am serious - many breeders who have won awards with spawn from pet store bettas. Sometimes they get the perfect fish the first spawn from the pet stores, sometimes it take a couple spawns. 

But that is exactly the type of thinking that holds a lot of fish and _new_ breeders back... it's almost an elitist form of thinking - "OMG they came from a store, they must be baaaaad and not worthy!" And then you have breeders who have won many awards look at them and go.. "They have good lines, good colors.. definitely can make something of them" and go on to create award winning bettas from those and their offspring.

And you fix forms from petshop fish the same you do for fish you got from a breeder with imperfect form.. you breed it out through the line. Petshop fish are NOT worse than breeder fish, they become unhealthy from living in the condition they are in for so long. They aren't culls... I'm glad majority of the good breeders and knowledgeable breeders/showers don't think this way and they still purchase petshop bettas. 

And Matts.. yes, many are wanting to bring them back, right now one is getting a general census to how popular it would be.. a petition would be something to show support.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

I don't think "it will take numerous generations" equals "it's near impossible." It would be a challenge, but you're never going to get anywhere thinking it's too hard to do. I doubt the first people to develop HMs got it right in the first few generations either. The history of many pure dog and cat breeds started with some person finding a mutt or stray with something different by chance and deciding they wanted to breed it to get more dogs or cats like that. Often, the first few tries were utter failure. It was only after many years that they succeeded, their hard work finally paid off, and their breed gained popularity.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yep  And even when breeding HMs, a good number won't be HMs with both parents as HMs. There are no perfect spawns - you will get undesirables in every spawn, you just have to work with the best of them to get a few better ones, etc. So I say - want to work with VTs, go for it and create new patterns and scaling - you can make dragon VTs and EE VTs, just have to be patient. You find some really pretty pet store bettas, then work with them and improve them. It's rare to get the perfect HM female - 180 spread on an HM female are hard to come by, but it doesn't mean the ones without it are any less, and doesn't mean you can't create some perfect HMs using them. 

As I was told by a breeder I respect, breeding these fish is 90% patience.


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## bettaisbetter (Jan 25, 2013)

I do wish VTs were allowed. It's just that there's no 180* spread. And the abundance at the store.. I'm going to consider breeding VTs once I start breeding, I love dragons and the dragons MoonShadow had were just simply divine. <3


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

http://youtu.be/XLoHoIsN9dQ
http://youtu.be/RqK60avTfK4
http://youtu.be/mUO585cIpls
http://youtu.be/HoexN85191Y
http://youtu.be/57vQgbfcZWM
http://youtu.be/Ue71nDS_C04

^ Some fish I've seen sold by an Australian seller. No, they're not perfect, but you can't find long flowing fins like that in any other tail type. I am really just kind of in love with them... I think petstores here have stopped stocking VTs in favour of other tail types which they can sell for more, but I really want to breed good VTs someday. It wouldn't matter to me if I can't make a profit (does breeding any tail type really bring back a huge profit anyway?). I understand that more likely than not, I'll be sinking money in and not getting any out, but I don't care about money. I would just be doing something I enjoy. I kept fish since I was a little kid. I have depression and anxiety and they're therapeutic to me.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

They are therapeutic  and those are some pretty fish!

No, people who start breeding thinking they will be making a profit and lots of money will be sadly mistaken.. you are lucky to break even from the start up costs after a year or two.. it's a big money sink at the beginning.. after that there is maintenance fees.

So if you're going to be spending all those hours and all that cash.. why not do what you love with it?


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## bettaisbetter (Jan 25, 2013)

I know the consequences breeding these fish. But don't they deserve the chance? They're the ones that started it all, they made the other tail types happen. I know all the needed supplies; fry foods, grow outs, extra tanks/heaters, shipping supplies, jars, etc. 

It's true that VTs aren't my favorite tail type, but they're the ones that need the help. But I do love the dragon VTs. The other types are showing up in stores too much as well, I also said I was just considering it even though it's a huge responsibility. I'm not looking for a profit, I do it for the hobby and joy of raising beautiful fish.


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