# Sorority Journal



## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

So, to make a long story short my old sorority setup was 3 girls who were from the same spawn and sadly when Baby passed I had to separate her sisters because there was too much fin nipping. I missed seeing girls, though, so I thought I'd try to set up a more "robust" sorority with more girls. 

For the rest of my girls aside from my remaining 2, I tried to pick out girls that were healthy and roughly the same age, because I thought that would help cut down on aggression. I quarantined them just to make sure there wasn't any disease, too.

They were introduced and placed in the tank yesterday...and things seemed ok. 

However, one of the girls i got is now building a bubble nest? :shock:

My 2 older gals have been behaving and have decided to claim ownership of one of the caves, and there's been relatively few spats. For the most part everyones' fins are ok and everyone is coming up to be fed, so I figure no one feels threatened.

BUT I'm worried about the bubble nest builder. Is she really a really young plakat male? Should I jar her/him and hope that there's no bloodshed if I disrupt the peace that seems to be existing?

Tank: 10gal, cycled, planted, temp is 78 and all other params are good. There's 6 girls plus 2 nerites. My worry is that maybe one of those 6 girls is really a boy because of the bubble building?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Was it one of the ones I sent, Liz?


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

No, it wasn't hrutan, your girls have been so pretty but so hard to take a decent pic with on my phone.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

OK, haha. I had one "girl" turn out to be a short-fin boy in the spawn. No idea where he came from...so I was worried you got another, haha.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Here's a pic of the bubble nest, and pics of the fish who I'm confused about:


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

This fish was in a female veiltail jar, I liked how pastel blue she was and didn't seem much bigger than any of the other girls. She's roughly the same size as my other girls, unlike my older boys the beard is not so pronounced and I don't see it ever fully flaring, just building the bubble nest and chasing the other girls away. 

I'm still not sure what to think :-/


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

That is one heck of a bubble nest. She looks iffy to me. Maybe female maybe not. Have you tried putting her in a jar, and a male in another jar, and putting them next to each other to flare? See how they react to each other.

We might not be able to tell, but the fish _always _know.


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## artemis35 (Jul 11, 2014)

That suspect fish definitely looks male to me.

My reasoning is that the body looks too "robust" and the dorsal fin is way too big/wide to be a female. All of my females have very skinny dorsal fins, even those with longer, fuller caudal and anal fins.

I could definitely be wrong, but I have had quite a few females (6 currently) and "male" is my strong suspicion.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm also, hesitantly, leaning towards male, but I'd still do the jar test to be sure. I have plenty of chubby girls with big dorsals, but the front of this fish's body doesn't have a bulge indicating ovaries. This guy might be a "tweener," (a hybrid between short and long), a throwback to short fin, or a bad plakat. Can't see the rays real well, but the spread in the caudal suggests that no matter what, (s)he doesn't appear to be a veil, so you're already working with a mislabeled jar.

If it's male, he'll continue building that nest and driving the females away. The females, if they are unsure of their pecking order, will squabble, and eventually the dominant female and he will wrap.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

hrutan said:


> That is one heck of a bubble nest. She looks iffy to me. Maybe female maybe not. Have you tried putting her in a jar, and a male in another jar, and putting them next to each other to flare? See how they react to each other.
> 
> We might not be able to tell, but the fish _always _know.


I tried the jarring when I first got Robin, just to try to see what the personality was and to gauge aggression because it's one thing to be passive in the store, and another to react once in a more stable set-up. This fish wouldn't flare, but I'll try again and report back.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

artemis35 said:


> That suspect fish definitely looks male to me.
> 
> My reasoning is that the body looks too "robust" and the dorsal fin is way too big/wide to be a female. All of my females have very skinny dorsal fins, even those with longer, fuller caudal and anal fins.
> 
> I could definitely be wrong, but I have had quite a few females (6 currently) and "male" is my strong suspicion.


Thanks, artemis, looking at older photos of Robin the dorsal has definitely grown in the time I've had her/him and I think that it was likely in a mislabeled jar and actually a male fish. 

I've decided I'll remove the fish into one of my other empty tanks for now, and hope it doesn't disrupt the other gals too much.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Fins on Robin keep growing, tricky badly labeled gal! Is now happily building bubble nests in his new 3 gal. setup 

The gals seem to still be setting up a pecking order, the 4 girls that were in together at first know where they stand in relation to each other. The 2 newer girls added Sunday are still testing the waters, but thankfully no more nipped fins or chases going on. 

Feeding seems to bring all but 2 of the girls out regularly. The 2 that aren't coming up (but are still alive, I see them swimming & hovering lower where there's more plant cover) are the cambodian-ish girl, who was bottom of the first pecking order, and one of the newer blue girls who is I guess submissive as well? Their bellies look good, so I know they're eating, I see they tend to wait for a pellet to sink or go unobserved by the others before making their way to it. 

I've seen some baby snails which must have hitch-hiked with some of the plants I got, I tried to make sure they were rinsed but I guess I didn't do a thorough enough job. I suspect that these 2 may be supplementing their diet with some snail babies, is this ok?


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Subscribing. I also just set up a 10 gallon sorority.  One of mine was a secret male, too!

"Pest" snails are a perfectly good snack for them. Sometimes, when my snail populations get too large, I'll crush them and feed them to my platies. They seem to like it.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks for subscribing, MameJenny! I was expecting that there might be a "secret" male so I was prepared with a back-up tank, so far that seems to have been the most challenging aspect of getting the sorority underway.

I didn't know that about the snails, but will try it if I happen to see any get big enough


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Some of them eat snails and snail eggs, some of them don't. It's a perfectly healthy and nutritious meal for them, well within the range of their natural diet. My Phoenix kills Ramshorn snails in his tank after they have reached a certain size, and then eats them.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

This is the cambodian-ish girl, Rose, and she's the one that's gotten the most fin damage but it's not hampering her swimming so I think it's ok to leave her in for now.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

She looks like a big version of my Cambodian girl. Her fins will heal up in no time.  One of my girls got a shredded tail from an aggressive female a few days ago, and she's already completely healed up today. It's amazing how fast the fins grow.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

MameJenny, I'm impressed that the fins are healing as quickly as they are! It's been a little over a week, but the fin is almost fully healed except for coloration, it's slowly getting color back. I've decided to put the nippy/greedy gal in a floating breeder container for now, I'd really like to have her be in the sorority but she's still flaring at everyone when they come by and when she was loose would chase the others away from food...so she was a round little ball and everyone else was considerably thinner. 










That's Rose there flitting in the back, and Sharon's the lil blue gal darting in the shot. The jarred girl stripes up whenever she sees the camera flash :-?


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

And this gal is Ariel, not sure if it comes through in the photo but she's such a pretty emerald green color after being out of the pet store situation:


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Sharon is so pretty! I hope you can get a hold of your nippy girl better than I could with mine. I had the same issue with mine - she'd nip and relentlessly chase the others whenever they came up for air or food. I ended up needing to remove her. It's strange - the other girls' interactions got a lot more peaceful after I took out the trouble making girl.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

This is Prim, she's one of hrutan's girls.









And just for fun, 2 boy pictures:

This is Jack, one of hrutan's boys, he's sharing a split 6 gallon with Robin below:


















I've yet to catch either of them flare at each other in the time that they've been sharing a tank. Jack would flare at his brother all the time through the mesh, it was really stressing him out & I felt bad for the poor little guy so I moved him to a different tank.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

You have a gorgeous bunch of bettas there!


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

MameJenny said:


> Sharon is so pretty! I hope you can get a hold of your nippy girl better than I could with mine. I had the same issue with mine - she'd nip and relentlessly chase the others whenever they came up for air or food. I ended up needing to remove her. It's strange - the other girls' interactions got a lot more peaceful after I took out the trouble making girl.


Thank you! Sharon's one of the older gals, she and her sister have an almost identical shade of blue, I can only ever tell them apart just because Wink's a little bigger. 

I'm going to try to give it a few more days with the nippy girl, and if she's still not settling down then I'm going to put her in her own tank :| I've seen things be a lot more peaceful since I've jarred her, the other girls seem to have figured out where they're going to hang out in the tank and it's planted enough that they only really seem to see each other now at feed time. They are amazingly good at feeding time with letting each other get some of the pellets, it's really cute to see them swim forward to take their turns :lol:


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## JHatchett (Aug 24, 2014)

Jack and Prim are lovely! I have one of their sisters. They are cute fish.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks, JHatchett, I'm sure their sister is also a pretty fish


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

*Breeding Stripes?*

So the one girl that I'd jarred but kept in the tank wasn't calming down, so I took her out Sunday. Yesterday I noticed Wink started chasing Ariel and Prim around like crazy and keeping them from surfacing when I fed them, to to keep any fins from being shredded I took her out, too. Things have settled down in Pi Betta Phi (the nickname the tank now has, thanks to the bf).

The 2 are presently sharing a split tank, but today I noticed Wink was striped in a way I'd never seen bettas striped before. I've seen plenty of horizontal stripes, when they're stressed. The stripes she has are almost like tiger stripes, vertical bands. Are these stripes normal?


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## JHatchett (Aug 24, 2014)

Could be breeding stripes, they also will do that to display dominance. I also wouldn't mind a clear photo of the foreground fish. That silhouette seems rather masculine.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

JHatchett said:


> Could be breeding stripes, they also will do that to display dominance. I also wouldn't mind a clear photo of the foreground fish. That silhouette seems rather masculine.


Hey JHatchett, sorry for the delay in getting the picture, fish are tough to photograph and I've been down these past few days with the cold/flu bug that's going around. Anyways these are a few pictures I was able to take this morning:




























The dorsal & anal fins have been getting longer, so my suspicion is it's actually a boy, too.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

They can switch sex. I've had that happen at least twice. :shock:


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

That's something new I learned today, hrutan! I wonder what triggers the gender switch? The now unnamed likely-boy was one of the girls I got from you, and then I thought the bullying I was seeing was due to dominance issues being sorted out, but once isolated the dorsal & anal fins started growing pretty quickly overnight, it feels like. 

Due to all the secret boys, I'm down to just 4 girls in the 10 gallon, plus 2 nerites. There hasn't been any spats that I've seen now that the other fish are out, I'm guessing without a boy around the girls feel like they don't have to show off as much lol. 

I'm a little worried about the tank long-term, should I look into more girls for it? Or hope the peace holds with the 4?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

lizcateyes said:


> So the one girl that I'd jarred but kept in the tank wasn't calming down, so I took her out Sunday. Yesterday I noticed Wink started chasing Ariel and Prim around like crazy and keeping them from surfacing when I fed them, to to keep any fins from being shredded I took her out, too. Things have settled down in Pi Betta Phi (the nickname the tank now has, thanks to the bf).
> 
> The 2 are presently sharing a split tank, but today I noticed Wink was striped in a way I'd never seen bettas striped before. I've seen plenty of horizontal stripes, when they're stressed. The stripes she has are almost like tiger stripes, vertical bands. Are these stripes normal?


That is a female saying "Hello BABY" to a handsome guy. The other fish in that tank has _such _a male profile. Those later pictures look super questionable. The body shape says "female" but those fins say "male." I'm willing to bet if you cut back on feeding a bit, the body will slim down to a male profile. I'd lay money on it. I'd bet a free fish on it...


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

hrutan, you're on! I'm generally guilty of overfeeding a little (it's so hard to say to to those begging faces!) but I'll try fasting it a little to see the results.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Deal. If this fish turns out to truly be female, I've got two 4 week old spawns growing out right now. They'll be ready for new homes in two months. Priority shipping on me.


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## KitDewStein (Jan 20, 2015)

This is going to be interesting XD


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

lizcateyes said:


> That's something new I learned today, hrutan! I wonder what triggers the gender switch? The now unnamed likely-boy was one of the girls I got from you, and then I thought the bullying I was seeing was due to dominance issues being sorted out, but once isolated the dorsal & anal fins started growing pretty quickly overnight, it feels like.
> 
> Due to all the secret boys, I'm down to just 4 girls in the 10 gallon, plus 2 nerites. There hasn't been any spats that I've seen now that the other fish are out, I'm guessing without a boy around the girls feel like they don't have to show off as much lol.
> 
> I'm a little worried about the tank long-term, should I look into more girls for it? Or hope the peace holds with the 4?


I _thought_ those colors looked familiar...and they DID have ovaries when I sent them, darn it. If it looks peaceful, let them be.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Any updates? ;-)


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Sorry to keep you waiting! Well, it's been a stressful time for Pi Betta Phi, I lost Shannon earlier this week because she'd leaped out of the tank while both the bf & I were at work and there was nothing we could do to save her. The sorority peace was broken down as well, no girls in the tank were un-nipped and I removed my last older girl because she was the most tattered. Then yesterday morning, I noticed Prim was showing strong stress stripes, which she hadn't in several weeks. This worried me, because she didn't peek up for dinner last night, either. This morning, I woke up to find her pineconing, so I've taken her out to put her in my QT tank. My water params are good, the tank is cycled and no one else (well, it's just Ariel, Rose, & the nerites in the tank now, and I've decided to jar those 2 to just keep an eye on things) is feeling ill, yet. Ammonia, nitrate, nitrites are all 0, my water's at 78 degrees. I know pineconing isn't good, but I'd like to try to save her, if possible. I've got several meds on hand, along w/Pimafix & Melafix. Should I try just epsom salt first, or is there something that anyone's had luck with? It's not an easy decision, but I can also euthanize her if it's clear she's suffering, too. I'm just very worried about what the best course of action would be with her?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Awww jeeze, I'm sorry.

Most of the time, by the time you see pineconing it is too late. Dropsy is a symptom, not a disease.

The last person I saw that has pulled a fish out of pineconing used Epsom Salt, Methylene Blue, and something...betta revive. Hang on.

"i have him in a cup that holds 16 oz of water. Daily he gets one drop of betta revive one drop of methylene blue and a little it of epsom salt. That's all I have used for 3 weeks because antibiotics are really hard to get. He is doing well today too his color came back and he ate a little these past two days."


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I would use antibiotics instead of betta revive, if you can get them, but be sure to check and see if whatever you use can safely be used with epsom salt. Epsom Salt draws the fluid out. Methylene Blue helps oxygen circulate the body. Antibiotics to fight the infection.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

hrutan said:


> I would use antibiotics instead of betta revive, if you can get them, but be sure to check and see if whatever you use can safely be used with epsom salt. Epsom Salt draws the fluid out. Methylene Blue helps oxygen circulate the body. Antibiotics to fight the infection.


Thanks, hrutan, I just checked the bottle of betta revive I had and it's expired  just my luck on Friday the 13, I'm crossing my fingers that my lfs will have some in stock when they open at 9. Will keep you posted.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Good luck. Hope for the best, but be kind to your heart...it's a long shot.


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## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

Aw, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope your girl can recover. I've heard stories about bettas with mild dropsy recovering eventually.

Just out of curiosity - did the peace break down after your first girl jumped out? Was she the "top betta"?


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Sadly, Prim passed away over the weekend. She'd stopped eating the night before, I told myself I'd euthanize if she refused breakfast the next morning. Bettas who aren't eating are unhappy and giving up on life, I think. Nature took it's course, SIP Prim :'(

MameJenny, yes the chaos started when my "top betta" jumped out, it was just a dominance battle that I was afraid was going to lead to serious casualties so I took an aggressive approach: I cupped all the remaining girls for a week, they could see each other but not nip each other and I finally felt it was safe to release them together over a weekend where I'd be home to watch them and break up any spats. Thankfully, the 3 girls I have in the sorority tank are getting along "peacefully" - they have staked out territories (each around a preferred bit of cave/plants and if another girl swims into it, she'll get chased out into neutral grounds but that's it. No fin nipping, no body slams, and for feeding everyone is taking their turns. I'm nervous because it's only 3 girls, which feels like someone is going to be stressed soon, but I'm crossing my fingers that they can behave but if worst comes to worst I'll turn the tank into a divided tank. Their safety comes first for me.

Update on the secret boy - I'm fairly convinced now that she's actually a he. Pictures to follow in next post.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

As promised, pictures of secret boy:










Sorry for the scratchy tank pic:









The white flecks here are the beginnings of a bubble nest, better viewed from above.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

What a chubby little troublemaker. I SWEAR he was a girl when I sent him!


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

hrutan said:


> What a chubby little troublemaker. I SWEAR he was a girl when I sent him!


It's been fun, all in all I had 3 unrelated boys in the sorority tank, by accident :shock: I'm just very glad no one was seriously injured in the time that I had them together thinking they were girls. Although they may have started off as girls and then switched their genders when they realized the tank only had females, I guess? I didn't know that their genders weren't fixed until they were a little older, but you live and learn! :lol:


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Even when they are a little older, it is still possible for them to switch. When I related the story, a friend of mine told me about the time they bought a lovely male, a week out of the bag decided he'd had enough of that nonsense and went female on her.

I STRONGLY suspect my Titania, the female giant, started out male. She LOOKS male. She just isn't.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

I feel a little better now that it's not just something that's happened to me. I wonder if it's hormonally triggered or triggered by something in the water?


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

So good news in sorority land! (Sorry I've been absent for so long - grad school realities meant that midterms happened) I've got what's been a good mix with 4 girls now for over a month


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Hooray! And, welcome back. Hoping midterms went well for you. Grad school...so glad those days are behind me. :lol:


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Thankfully the end is in sight, hrutan! After I finish classes and my last final on May 1, I'll officially be starting my last year and can look forward to a graduation next year


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

You're going to have months afterward where you go back and forth between feeling like you have a paper due, and being relieved that you don't have any papers to do. Haha.


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

I definitely know the feeling, only it's law school so it's more final exams than papers. Either way, it's the fish and caring for them that are keeping me grounded and sane :lol:


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## lizcateyes (Oct 22, 2014)

Between summer work and family things (got engaged & moved), I haven't had much time to hop on here. However, a LFS (Aquascapes in Mountain View) is going out of business. It's bittersweet because I got a few fish from there, and they had a giant gourami fish (I think that's what Trinity is?) who was always greeting customers but I heard she's going to a fish sanctuary. 

I think their last day is the end of this week, I hadn't known about it but I was able to get a 29 gal with filter & lights & heater for $40. I spent most of the past weekend cleaning it & setting it up to cycle, and I think it'll be safe for the sorority in a few days. 

I've got my five girls right now with some nerites, but with 29 gallons I figure I can get some more girls and maybe even some new fish? Would a male in there be ok, I wonder? The harem setups I've seen discussed were all 30+ gallons, though, so not sure. Picks soon!


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