# Done.



## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

Oh, I just love this site.

*Sarcasm intensifies*


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## GingerHeart10001 (Apr 9, 2015)

There are a lot of bad people on this site, I really don't understand when people post judging comments why do you even post a comment. 

Do you just feel like making someone feel bad about themselves?
To all those good people on this site, thankyou for helping the people that need help with there betta fish and not saying "Oh, Clearly you don't take care of your betta" like a Jerk I recently made a new account because I forgot the User and Pass but clearly this site has changed there are new people who are ruining this site. I know I am probably going to get hate comments for this post but I am just speaking my mind, So if you feel like you have to yell at me keep to yourself. 
The comments on ArcticBeauty14's thread are so Stupid, I am sorry for what they are saying at least there still are some good people on this site.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

You'll find on any tropical fish site, that many members will take proper animal husbandry into consideration before someone's hurt feelers. It's pretty much a core value of a site that's run right; ethical animal husbandry.


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## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

If you care about the animal's welfare, then you should be suggesting tricks to help said owner care for the fish. Not "Oh, if you don't have a disability then you must just be a neglectful owner"


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Arctic this site has its moments but remember there are 1 or 2 good people out there in this site remember that 

Find what works for you find something that you dont have to lift alot


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## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

"1 or 2" is exactly my point, bk.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

I guess I'm confused. If we're talking about the thread I think we're talking about...I don't remember seeing anyone saying "you don't take care of your betta." What I saw was suggestions on how to improve on an issue that was posted about. Many of those suggestions were either pointing out places that would make the care easier - or strategies to make the issue easier to handle.


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## DangerousAngel (Mar 26, 2015)

I've come across some of what has been mentioned with other members. Even though I've seen it I've come across many very nice people. Maybe take a little break to be with you Bettas then come back later.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

ArcticBeauty14 said:


> "1 or 2" is exactly my point, bk.


But those two people i stay around cause i miss them if i go honestly


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## clopez1 (May 23, 2012)

You have to remember some people choose animals because they have a hard to with people. Some people are a bit too compassionate. I don't think anyone was trying to be rude but they may have just been a bit too aggressive on how they worded their responses or suggestions.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Perhaps to find the balance between ethical animal husbandry along with taking a members feelings into consideration would be the best of both worlds possible. 

Thoughts ?


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

I think when people need to realize is yes they do need proper care but as i seen here members have feelings too


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> Perhaps to find the balance between ethical animal husbandry along with taking a members feelings into consideration would be the best of both worlds possible.
> 
> Thoughts ?


In a perfect world, sure. All too often you'll come across those that have a problem for every solution, or just aren't happy until they get the answer that validates what they are thinking, regardless of if that answer is wrong. They don't like what they're hearing, out comes the feelings card. Typical internet, for many years.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Perseusmom said:


> Perhaps to find the balance between ethical animal husbandry along with taking a members feelings into consideration would be the best of both worlds possible.
> 
> Thoughts ?


I think that many members do this though. Even in the thread that I believe this is referring to...I believe several members tried to do this.

A few members may have started to probe a little bit far into personal territory, but I really didn't see anyone actively trying to guilt or shame the OP. Perhaps some of those started to pursue aggressively, but there were posters that didn't as well. Several just focused on strategies to make the task at hand easier.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Great decision ! It really helps to hear how members are feeling about this topic, thanks everyone. I hope we get a lot more members posting in this thread.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

I think a big part of this topic has to do with another topic, that after a mod edit due to language perhaps misconveys some of the posts, in part or in whole. As always with anything controversial I do screencaps, and of course have the unedited version for anyone who'd care to PM me. 

This is nothing new on sites that have rules, and happens quite often when members can't keep emotions in check. The mods have a job to do, that job is much appreciated!


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Tolak said:


> I think a big part of this topic has to do with another topic, that after a mod edit due to language perhaps misconveys some of the posts, in part or in whole. As always with anything controversial I do screencaps, and of course have the unedited version for anyone who'd care to PM me.
> 
> This is nothing new on sites that have rules, and happens quite often when members can't keep emotions in check. The mods have a job to do, that job is much appreciated!


Yeah - I saw that as well. That still wasn't aggression directed at the OP, but without the language context as to what the post was in response to it may have looked that way.

That gets hard. I understand where some items need to be removed to keep a forum friendly. But - often times "artifacts" from anything removed still end up in a thread.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

It is probably best to step away if those comments bothered you this much. This is one of the most 'babysitter nice-nice only mods/rules' forums I have been a part of. It's probably best not to post something in public on the internet if you're going to be upset by dissenting opinions. On the internet everyone's going to give their .02.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Rosewynn said:


> It is probably best to step away if those comments bothered you this much. This is one of the most 'babysitter nice-nice only mods/rules' forums I have been a part of. It's probably best not to post something in public on the internet if you're going to be upset by dissenting opinions. On the internet everyone's going to give their .02.


Yeah about that nice-nice babysitter comment, being a mod here becomes a real challenge sometimes because we have so many young members. If we were an adult only forum, things would be very different I'm sure. We wouldn't have to micro manage so many threads and would spend a lot less time trying to edit things out so that the conversations and posts still make sense without anyone getting butt hurt.

As for interpretation of the typed word on a public forum, I agree 100% about the thought that you should be prepared to have dissenting opinions. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. 

If we were all vanilla in our thoughts it would be a perfect world for us mods. but a total snorefest of a forum wouldn't it?

Just don't be a ____ like Tolak :rofl:

obvio. kidding there T


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Oh and one more thing for the record. There are WAY more than just a few people on this forum who are helpful nice caring people. Too many to count actually.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I don't know. I thought we had a lot of young members. Then when I see them posting their ages they are 'supposedly' either late teens (18/19) or early twenties. That to me, is old enough not to require hand-holding when posting on an online forum.

I will say that I really have to censor myself on this forum because like Rosewynn, I find this is one of the more heavily moderated forums I am on. In some cases, I do think feelings have to be hurt for lessons to be learned. I mean this isn't a forum dedicated to knitting. This hobby revolves around living creatures that are very capable of suffering because of ignorance or neglectful cruelty. 

Yes, I don't think emotional diatribes get the point across, but sometimes even just an objective critique of another member's husbandry (or lack thereof) is enough to get your advice childishly thrown back in your face and you being told that you are rude or insensitive, or heaven forbid, 'mean'.


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## RainbowsHaven (Aug 28, 2013)

I saw that original thread and I thought that one specific poster was unnecessarily aggressive and assumptive. There's a difference between baby-sitting and being rude. I am a part of _enough_ communities filled with trolls and jerks, I frankly just don't need one more. There's also a point at which you need to understand that you are an adult and the other party is going to keep responding to your provocative posts, so maybe you should be the bigger person and just stop. After one or two posts, step back and realize that you're not adding anything productive to the conversation and you can quietly take your leave. 

There _is_ a point at which you should be firm with someone--but not post after post after post when the other person has an extenuating circumstance that they clearly are not willing to share with you.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Romad said:


> Just don't be a ____ like Tolak :rofl:
> 
> obvio. kidding there T


My wife refers to me as a little ____ on occasion!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

If that member was Tolak (you singled him out in your post in the other thread), I personally think Tolak is an extremely valuable asset on this forum. I find his posts very refreshing to read, as in contrast to many members on this forum, he is someone with a wealth of knowledge in this hobby. 

I am always actually surprised Tolak still posts on this side of the forum. Honestly, the only reason I still post here is because it is one of the more active betta forums.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

RainbowsHaven said:


> I saw that original thread and I thought that one specific poster was unnecessarily aggressive and assumptive. There's a difference between baby-sitting and being rude. I am a part of _enough_ communities filled with trolls and jerks, I frankly just don't need one more. There's also a point at which you need to understand that you are an adult and the other party is going to keep responding to your provocative posts, so maybe you should be the bigger person and just stop. After one or two posts, step back and realize that you're not adding anything productive to the conversation and you can quietly take your leave.
> 
> There _is_ a point at which you should be firm with someone--but not post after post after post when the other person has an extenuating circumstance that they clearly are not willing to share with you.


Agreed! If a person there is such a thing as giving advice nicely and moving on and be a mature adult 

But they cant move on they attack and attack, why? A person says no they mean No


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Yes, I don't think emotional diatribes get the point across, but sometimes even just an objective critique of another member's husbandry (or lack thereof) is enough to get your advice childishly thrown back in your face and you being told that you are rude or insensitive, or heaven forbid, 'mean'.


Bully seems to be the trendy word for hearing the truth & not liking it these days. Don't go near FB, disagree with someone & you're a bully.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> If that member was Tolak (you singled him out in your post in the other thread), I personally think Tolak is an extremely valuable asset on this forum. I find his posts very refreshing to read, as in contrast to many members on this forum, he is someone with a wealth of knowledge in this hobby.
> 
> I am always actually surprised Tolak still posts on this side of the forum. Honestly, the only reason I still post here is because it is one of the more active betta forums.


I'll stand on this side of the divide. From what I've gathered - Tolak probably has more fish experience under his belt than some other members have life experience. I don't mean that as a slight to anyone - I'm talking sheer years of experience.

And as for the thread in question - the point Tolak was trying to make is still valid. There are ways of doing things that a person may not see as feasible - it just means adjusting the way you look at and think about the matter at hand. There are strategies to do that.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

A wealth of different opinions adds value.

That being said, I learned long ago that aggression and shaming get you NOWHERE. Making a person feel bad or trying to guilt them is much more likely to get them to dig their heels in than it is to help the situation, and is more likely to end up with either nothing changing, or the situation getting worse.

Compassionate, carefully worded advice is the way to go - and if things don't change fast enough to suit you ... let it go.

I have seen a few members act like bulldogs with a rope toy, tugging and tugging and tearing at the problem and refusing to back down, beyond reason. I have seen posts that reached to just barely under the level of harassment. I've seen people's journal articles get post after post of criticism, dogpiling the OP and making them unwelcome.

That's not okay.

I've seen my fair share of trolling by posters, as well, starting fights just to see people jump. Our mods do a good job of shutting that down, but things do get by every now and then.

Also...

Never believe someone's age on the internet. I strongly suspect that way more people on this forum are 14-17 than admit it. :lol:


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> If that member was Tolak (you singled him out in your post in the other thread), I personally think Tolak is an extremely valuable asset on this forum. I find his posts very refreshing to read, as in contrast to many members on this forum, he is someone with a wealth of knowledge in this hobby.
> 
> I am always actually surprised Tolak still posts on this side of the forum. Honestly, the only reason I still post here is because it is one of the more active betta forums.


The reason I post here has to do with bettas often being a fish that starts many folks in aquatics. Get them off to a good start, it can lead to great things. 

I also post here because I realize it's a younger crowd; kids are the future of aquatics. We've got a kid's sub-committee under the educational committee of the club I'm a lifetime member in. I'm a huge supporter of it, voted it in originally, vote for all budgetary increases concerning it, expansions to schools & such, the whole thing. I've seen kids get outbid on a fish by adults at auctions (I really despise that!), I outbid the adult, give the fish to the kid. I always buy raffle tickets for club events, often win something I'll never use, give it to a kid. Posting here is just an extension of what I do IRL.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

hrutan said:


> A wealth of different opinions adds value.
> 
> That being said, I learned long ago that aggression and shaming get you NOWHERE. Making a person feel bad or trying to guilt them is much more likely to get them to dig their heels in than it is to help the situation, and is more likely to end up with either nothing changing, or the situation getting worse.
> 
> ...


Amen to this^ its not just about fish people have the nerve to boss you around 

You cand do this or that. 

Also no one will want advice from a person like that


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yes I can understand that point completely. I likely would have been in this hobby years earlier if it hadn't been for the poor advice of a fish store employee, and the lack of forums such as these. Those few bad experiences nearly turned me off fish for good. 

I never believe the age of people in online communities, but if you are going to go around telling everyone you are in your twenties, than I expect you to be able to take being treated like someone in their twenties.

Also I was addressing your last post Tolak.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Also one thing i wanna add if a person got issues with someone why cant they message them privetly instead of ruining a good thread? 

Why not resolve the issue instead of being rude to eachother?


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Why cant people be like hey i realized that made you upset i M sorry if it did i didnt mean to lets work it out


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Because that requires a painful step: Admitting to being wrong in the first place. Many people cannot divorce that from their ego, so being "wrong" feels to them like something is wrong with _them_. They also cannot separate the idea that the message could be spot on, but there was a failure in delivery.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Why cant people be like hey i realized that made you upset i M sorry if it did i didnt mean to lets work it out


Already did that for a member today, still waiting on a reply. Discussed things with a mod, requesting something (not my post) not be edited. I'm a big boy, you'll have to go really far to upset me, but forum rules & all. Hate to see someone get dinged for a little loss of temper.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

hrutan said:


> Because that requires a painful step: Admitting to being wrong in the first place. Many people cannot divorce that from their ego, so being "wrong" feels to them like something is wrong with _them_. They also cannot separate the idea that the message could be spot on, but there was a failure in delivery.


wrong or not its nice to work it out 

both can get their views 

I thing what you did was wrong 

I am sorry if you feel that way i do apologize i said that or did that because you said this 

Oh i didnt realize that i am sorry too 

Point is why cant both apologize no one is right or wrong both of us can put our egos aside and apologize and move on


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tolak said:


> Already did that for a member today, still waiting on a reply. Discussed things with a mod, requesting something (not my post) not be edited. I'm a big boy, you'll have to go really far to upset me, but forum rules & all. Hate to see someone get dinged for a little loss of temper.


If you did that to me i would reply in a heart beat and work things out with you


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

I know i'm new here but here's my $.02. the internet is hard to read language as well. I belong to a bunch of other online communities, and there was this one woman who I though was really short, grumpy, and stand-offish, and I always was thinking to myself, "why so aggressive?". Turns out, she was usually using voice-to-text when she posted, which comes off sounding stilted and short. Sometimes i'm posting and wrestling two dogs or struggling with anxiety and just trying to distract myself on the internet so i'm sure i'm not expressing myself as well in those moments as I could. So taking everything with a grain of (aquarium!) salt is important on all sides, as well. Of course that doesn't give anyone an excuse to be a total butt just because they can, but definitely without body language things can be misconstrued very easily.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

While I completely 100% agree, that some need to be a little more considerate of others' feelings, I do think that if you're going to post something on a forum you need to be aware that there are people who are going to disagree, As was stated earlier in this thread. 

I think if someone is going to post a question regarding if a .5 gallon is a good home for a betta (as an example) and get mad when people calmly and politely state that .5 gallons is not in fact a proper permanent home. Sure, I have seen people get aggressive with this type of topic as well and I fully agree that we need to work on being more polite (some anyway, not all, but some)

But there are plenty of people on the forum that I've talked to with my own fishy problems that have been very helpful and very polite which keeps me coming back to this site. 

I have had issues with a couple people constantly nagging me about filters and sponge filter stuff, etc. to cycle, but at this point in time I do not have enough outlets to power filters at school, nor do I have the money to buy air pumps and tubing and sponge filters (trying to save for a car and in college, owing anywhere between $500-$2000 a semester out of pocket) right now. Now in the future, I do plan on cycling when i am able to, and out of school, when it would be better to keep a stable cycle as the tanks move around so much it would be difficult to maintain the cycle right now. The boys get frequent water changes to help keep ammonia levels down.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Strawberry12 said:


> I know i'm new here but here's my $.02. the internet is hard to read language as well. I belong to a bunch of other online communities, and there was this one woman who I though was really short, grumpy, and stand-offish, and I always was thinking to myself, "why so aggressive?". Turns out, she was usually using voice-to-text when she posted, which comes off sounding stilted and short. Sometimes i'm posting and wrestling two dogs or struggling with anxiety and just trying to distract myself on the internet so i'm sure i'm not expressing myself as well in those moments as I could. So taking everything with a grain of (aquarium!) salt is important on all sides, as well. Of course that doesn't give anyone an excuse to be a total butt just because they can, but definitely without body language things can be misconstrued very easily.


+1.

With the internet there is no body language...and sometimes it can be hard to judge tone. A person could mean something in a very friendly way...but without context it could be read in another way entirely.

When someone is CLEARLY trying to be a bit of a jerk - it is usually pretty obvious. There is no excuse in those situations. But often times, when there are scuffles they can be accounted for in a difference between the way a person intended their post to be taken, and how it was actually received.


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I will say that I really have to censor myself on this forum because like Rosewynn, I find this is one of the more heavily moderated forums I am on. In some cases, I do think feelings have to be hurt for lessons to be learned. I mean this isn't a forum dedicated to knitting. This hobby revolves around living creatures that are very capable of suffering because of ignorance or neglectful cruelty.


This, 110%. I've been PM'd by mods once or twice, and it's due to the fact that sometimes you see people make a decision so shortsighted without taking the needs of the animal into account- and you speak up. Being direct isn't bullying. There are some things you have to be willing to do, and some things you have to be willing to consider, before taking on the needs of a pet. Failing to do those things is far worse than a few words on the internet.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

but what if you both disagree then what??? Butt heads? Fight? Or just move on? 

Moving on i think its the best option to do


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

kevinap2 said:


> This, 110%. I've been PM'd by mods once or twice, and it's due to the fact that sometimes you see people make a decision so shortsighted without taking the needs of the animal into account- and you speak up. Being direct isn't bullying. There are some things you have to be willing to do, and some things you have to be willing to consider, before taking on the needs of a pet. Failing to do those things is far worse than a few words on the internet.


You are frustrated and angry yes but it wont help them see a different light or change if you use a harsh tone calm tone will make you seem friendly and they might be willing to change


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Well I normally just leave threads once I see the attitude of the OP isn't going to change, or I've posted on their threads before and know their 'history' on the forum. 

But I figure even if the OP learns nothing from their time here on the forum, at least by posting, those that lurk on the forum may pick up something useful. 

There are certain subjects on this forum that you just know are going to snowball into a train wreck.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

@Kevin - While I agree to a point, I do think that this is where Hrutan's point about delivery is really important.

If you get too aggressive on someone, they just get defensive and dig their heels in. There is no learning that takes place at that point. If you want to actually change the way someone is doing something - offering a solution with a sprinkling of sugar goes a whole lot farther than offering it up with a whole side of vinegar.

When I see someone who is doing something in a way that isn't in the best interest of their fish, I stay neutral and factual. I may be persistent in some cases, but it's always just sticking to factual advice given in as neutral a way as possible. When someone feels shamed, guilted, or attacked...they are not going to be receptive to even well-intended advice.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think the other difficulty, is that some people are so sensitive to any perceived criticism that even advice delivered in a neutral and objective manner, is taken as a personal attack. Some people act like you've insulted their whole family when all you've done is suggest that they need to purchase a heater.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I think the other difficulty, is that some people are so sensitive to any perceived criticism that even advice delivered in a neutral and objective manner, is taken as a personal attack. Some people act like you've insulted their whole family when all you've done is suggest that they need to purchase a heater.


This is very true. Good point.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

How dare you say something like that about my post.

And you even had the audacity to quote it?! 

How incredibly rude. This forum is going to the dogs I tell you!

:mrgreen:


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

I said being direct. I didn't say being mean. But at the same time, if I see someone spawn a couple of fish without any idea that they need live food cultures (an example of something I've seen), they've created hundreds of little lives, most of which will be doomed due to the owner's lack of research and negligence.

Many of the lessons I learned in life, I learned because someone told me that I screwed up, and did it in a direct way that made me think about what I did wrong. I'm not saying that you should be mean because you can, I'm saying that having someone tell me like it was usually was the reason I learned from my mistake.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I think the other difficulty, is that some people are so sensitive to any perceived criticism that even advice delivered in a neutral and objective manner, is taken as a personal attack. Some people act like you've insulted their whole family when all you've done is suggest that they need to purchase a heater.


Yes i am a sensitive person and it depends its just who i am and i feel as tho people are not understanding of that 

Yes some stuff are not a big deal fine but if i say you are rude you are rude i know rude people and no i will not get over it


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I will say that I really have to censor myself on this forum because like Rosewynn, I find this is one of the more heavily moderated forums I am on. In some cases, I do think feelings have to be hurt for lessons to be learned. I mean this isn't a forum dedicated to knitting. This hobby revolves around living creatures that are very capable of suffering because of ignorance or neglectful cruelty.



Actually some of the knitting forums I belong to are the scariest and most "wild west" type ones I belong to. :shock:


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

But rudeness is in a lot of ways subjective. What one person may believe is rudeness, another person might view as frankness.

That does not surprise me Strawberry. I think every hobby has its scary factor.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> But rudeness is in a lot of ways subjective. What one person may believe is rudeness, another person might view as frankness.
> 
> That does not surprise me Strawberry. I think every hobby has its scary factor.


It happens to me alot thats why i should just shut down my feelings then because after all i am over reacting and they are not rude


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

I think that in most cases if someone thinks a person to be rude - and tells them so - when the person really truly did not intend to be, it is worth it to apologize. You don't have to apologize for what was *said* if it was something simply spoken franky, but you can say something like "I'm sorry that I came off in a way that you felt was rude, I didn't meant to upset you. I just wanted to point out blah blah blah blah blabbidy blah blah."

That said - at that point it *is* on the other person to understand and recognize that simply having a dissenting opinion isn't in and of itself rude. 

That said - there are some people that just want validation....and nothing that you can say that differs from their thought process and the way they do things will be taken as anything but an attack. With those situations, stay objective and neutral....but understand when you're just spinning your wheels and it's time to walk away.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Greenapp1es said:


> I think that in most cases if someone thinks a person to be rude - and tells them so - when the person really truly did not intend to be, it is worth it to apologize. You don't have to apologize for what was *said* if it was something simply spoken franky, but you can say something like "I'm sorry that I came off in a way that you felt was rude, I didn't meant to upset you. I just wanted to point out blah blah blah blah blabbidy blah blah."
> 
> That said - at that point it *is* on the other person to understand and recognize that simply having a dissenting opinion isn't in and of itself rude.
> 
> That said - there are some people that just want validation....and nothing that you can say that differs from their thought process and the way they do things will be taken as anything but an attack. With those situations, stay objective and neutral....but understand when you're just spinning your wheels and it's time to walk away.


This! ^


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> How dare you say something like that about my post.
> 
> And you even had the audacity to quote it?!
> 
> ...


Exactly. Be glad you don't need a heater.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I always think, if there is a pattern of behaviour that keeps repeating itself around you, perhaps it's time to stop and consider if the problem is with you and not those around you. 

For example, if every time Joe Blow talks to someone, it starts a fight, perhaps there is something in what Joe Blow is saying, or how he is presenting himself that is the root cause of the issue. 

It's always important to stop and consider how we express ourselves to others. Especially online where emotion is difficult to convey and you sometimes can't get a feel for tone or sentiment.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

BTW LittleBettaFish - would you like me to apologize for quoting your post? I didn't mean to offend you. I simply wanted to point out that you were right.

;-) :mrgreen:


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I was offended by the fact you had to quote me to point out I was right. 

I am always right. Pft.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I always think, if there is a pattern of behaviour that keeps repeating itself around you, perhaps it's time to stop and consider if the problem is with you and not those around you.
> 
> For example, if every time Joe Blow talks to someone, it starts a fight, perhaps there is something in what Joe Blow is saying, or how he is presenting himself that is the root cause of the issue.
> 
> It's always important to stop and consider how we express ourselves to others. Especially online where emotion is difficult to convey and you sometimes can't get a feel for tone or sentiment.


No there is no pattern following me there are nice people out there who are mature and understanding 

i dont have a ego i know when i am wrong yelling and lashing out at me is what gets me also if you are mature in telling me i am wrong i will accept it and apologize


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

I have frequented many forum communities and have moderated for a few. I find it very difficult and challenging to interact with people in real life and don't really have many "RL" friends (maybe two excluding my girlfriend?), so most of my social interactions are online ones. I know I can't be the only one... The one great thing about the internet is its unique type of anonymity. You can technically say whatever you want, however you want to say it. That is also one of its bads, because trolls and bullies and such.

However, I personally think this a very nice forum with a lot of helpful, supportive members. We relate on a lot of social cues to interpret the meaning behind other people's ideas and comments, like intonations, body language, facial expressions, etc., and none of that translate very well over a block of text on a screen. Imo, it is probably best to not take the internet too seriously or too personally. I don't believe the average member on this forum sets out to write a post to intentionally offend or harrass or hurt. I mean, that would takes a lot of effort to attack a stranger on the internet and for so little personal gain. 

The mods shouldn't have to go through every thread to make sure that the potential of someone's feelings getting hurt is completely eliminated, that would be much too taxing on them and they already work so hard. Not to mention this is already one of the forums I've seen where the mods are way more "hands-on."

TL;dr - Just shrug and move on. One butt on the internet (if they really are being a butt) is still just one butt on the internet.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

But anyways being sensetive is another subject


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Fenghuang said:


> I have frequented many forum communities and have moderated for a few. I find it very difficult and challenging to interact with people in real life and don't really have many "RL" friends (maybe two excluding my girlfriend?), so most of my social interactions are online ones. I know I can't be the only one... The one great thing about the internet is its unique type of anonymity. You can technically say whatever you want, however you want to say it. That is also one of its bads, because trolls and bullies and such.
> 
> However, I personally think this a very nice forum with a lot of helpful, supportive members. We relate on a lot of social cues to interpret the meaning behind other people's ideas and comments, like intonations, body language, facial expressions, etc., and none of that translate very well over a block of text on a screen. Imo, it is probably best to not take the internet too seriously or too personally. I don't believe the average member on this forum sets out to write a post to intentionally offend or harrass or hurt. I mean, that would takes a lot of effort to attack a stranger on the internet and for so little personal gain.
> 
> ...


+1. Well put.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Thank you Tolak and LittleBettaFish for restoring my faith in humanity (AKA this forum lol). 

Being direct =/= being mean or being a bully. I hate, hate, hate this culture we live in right now where telling someone they're wrong is practically non-PC these days. If you get offended by someone telling you you're doing something wrong I honestly don't think you should be posting on the internet at all. (And this isn't towards the OP just FYI; but a general statement). It gets to a point where I get sick of people telling others they're sensitive so we should always accommodate them. Why isn't it suggested we meet in the middle instead? And that might sound harsh (no pun intended lol) but that's the way the world/internet works. Does it sting for someone to tell you you're doing something wrong? Of course it can - depending on what the issue is but does that mean it shouldn't be said? I don't think so. Like (I believe it was Tolak who said this) Tolak said, we're dealing with live animals, not knitting. Sometimes being direct is the only way to get someone to take something serious; and I 100% disagree that users will only respond to rainbows and gumdrops replies. I know this for a fact because I have seen it happen on here time and time again (users thanking members for being real/honest/direct with them).

ETA: If you don't like people who are being 'direct' in their replies/posts the block tool is probably a great solution. I hear people saying, "But it lets me click on it anyway to read it..." but I don't understand that. If you don't like what a user contributes which is why you blocked them, why are you interested in reading what they have to say in the first place? *shrugs* I have only felt compelled to use it once but it works well enough IMO.


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## RainbowsHaven (Aug 28, 2013)

I recently moved into a manager position at my workplace and I'm learning more about the way people interact every day. Frankly, I am _not_ a people person. The only person I enjoy being around is my boyfriend and even then, sometimes I enjoy solemnity. Suddenly being in charge of rotating groups of people is forcing me to learn VERY quickly about juggling people and the things they say, because prior to the last few months I knew almost nothing. 

To give anexample, recently two students in one of my training classes had a fallout. It stemmed from our first week of training and escalated during the second week. Student A (a female) worked at Nordstrom prior to coming to our place of employment and as such, was VERY well-dressed and well-kept, despite class being at 6:45 in the morning. Student B (an effeminate male) saw fit to compliment her on her dress several times, but she took the compliments the wrong way and never told him. What he thought were compliments about her expensive clothes she took as him mocking her for taking the time to get dressed and "wasting" money on clothes, when in reality they were left over from her previous place of employment and she was struggling financially. 

I don't think that you should be afraid to speak or 'coddle' the people you are speaking to online like children... But I do think it's _extremely_ important to understand that every person's circumstances are different. We are never so close and so far as we are on the internet. There's no sarcasm or sincerity font here. There's no body language or tone. You can't control how people interpret what you say, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware of what you say and that you shouldn't be prepared to apologize in the event you have clearly upset someone. Sometimes you have to take a step back and say (as others have pointed out in this thread); "Hey, I wasn't trying to upset you, but I wanted to make sure you understood my point."


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## Axeria (Feb 6, 2015)

I am coming late to the party but I have some things I just need to get off my chest on this subject:

First I think it is really sad and unecessary to make threads like this, as to shame the person(s) you _"think_" are being rude or disrespectful and harvest sympathy by whining about supposedly hurt feelings. It is just childish and sours the forum for the rest of us. Talk to the mods and the persons at hand, do not drag the whole comunity in and most important: Be responsible for your own feelings, know they exist and acknowledge them but then put them away while writing 

second I would like to say that dispite of this thread being created on biased reasons I am so happy to read on and see that our trusted members come through with great posts as to discuss this in a rationall and factual way! yay you guys! 

Because that is a issue I find on here alot! Some people have a big problem with taking neutral and factual advice that is not rolled in sugar and littered with smileys. They imediatly jump up and shout bloody murder as soon as they dont get validation or feel that the advice given is not presented to them in the way they wanted. As if they are royalty or have the authority to dictate how people word themself! This to me makes it even harder to comunicate on here because they are fuelling a problem that really does not exsist to others than themself in their own head. If this is because of age, mental stability, lack of confidence or other factors I have no clue but it certantly creates a strain on the rest of the comunity imho.


If I am to be frank I have not had ANY issues with ANY of the advice given on here, I have NEVER EVER seen anyone be rude or hurtfull or disrespectfull! I have NEVER seen ANYTHING negative until people take offence and handles their feelings badly. It should not be necessary to have to say "this is not to be rude or to hurt anyones feelings" every time you correct someone or give them advice.


lol this became a mess really, I just get abit fed up about this as this is the second time in under a month we have to adress this made up "issue" about members not being nice on here. Which upsets me because I could not be more happy with the advice that people on here give and the amount of helpfulness I have encountered! 

I love this forum and the many members on it that make this place such a big "tank" of knowledge!

Edit: just so everyone know, I DO NOT mean anything hurtfull with my post, this is not directed at anyone but a general summary of my thoughts and oppinions on this subject. I appologize in advance if somone takes offence


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

+1 Axeria


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

I have been reading the thread in question as well as this thread, but have been trying to find the correct words to say. I am usually the guilty one of being blunt and a little brash with my advice, but I'll put it like this: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can beat him to death, but if he doesn't want water, he isn't going to drink. So I've had to step back and realize that I can't force someone to change what they are doing wrong when they don't see it. So I've just had to realize that and know that it's not worth getting upset over and braking my character just because someone doesn't want to listen.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

I still stand by that if you have any issues message them talk to them about it dont do it on the thread 

And also yes Animal care is important but not worth being upset over a pet thats not even yours


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

And thats what i dont understand sure there are abusers out there but there are people out there with good intentions to the animal and


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## DangerousAngel (Mar 26, 2015)

Axeria said:


> I am coming late to the party but I have some things I just need to get off my chest on this subject:
> 
> First I think it is really sad and unecessary to make threads like this, as to shame the person(s) you _"think_" are being rude or disrespectful and harvest sympathy by whining about supposedly hurt feelings. It is just childish and sours the forum for the rest of us. Talk to the mods and the persons at hand, do not drag the whole comunity in and most important: Be responsible for your own feelings, know they exist and acknowledge them but then put them away while writing
> 
> ...


+1
I think sometimes people say things and mean well, but the ones on the receiving end misinterpret it thinking it's a personal attack when it's just advice. I think we should consider the fact the we don't know everyone's situation (financial or living) and do the best with what they have to work with. I always say if you fish is happy, healthy, and thriving then keep doing what you're doing. Whatever it is you're doing, you're doing it right. Now if you have fish that keep dying and you don't understand why, then you need to start taking advice.


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

Agreed. Also, I'm one of those that end up with the abused and neglected pets so neglect and abuse hits me to my core. I also understand that someone cannot be held accountable for what they don't know. For the children on this forum, the blame should be placed on the appropriate person. Because in that case, as an adult, when your child decides to get a pet, you should understand that the true responsability is on the parents to provide appropriate care. For the adults here, you have the burden of being the first line of information about caring for a pet. And as for the children, I might get harsh but trust me when I say this, I never intended to offend or hurt anyone's feelings. I always say that if you didn't care for your pets, you wouldn't be here seeking help. But please understand that you must be able to accept criticism. Some people are better than others at delivery, but I'm sure no one on this forum intended to bash or threaten you.


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Tolak said:


> In a perfect world, sure. All too often you'll come across those that have a problem for every solution, or just aren't happy until they get the answer that validates what they are thinking, regardless of if that answer is wrong. They don't like what they're hearing, out comes the feelings card. Typical internet, for many years.


This is exactly what I was going to say. Sometimes it just seems that nothing you say will satisfy someone until you say what they wanted to hear in the first place. Some people are willing to appease such individuals and others are not. Those who are not willing to sacrifice their principles to make someone happy are often labelled "mean." I don't agree with this. In fact, I see this kind of behavior as a double standard. For instance (and this is a made-up scenario not aimed at anyone in particular), there are plenty of people who want to keep bettas in tiny tanks. Some are more receptive to the idea of a tank upgrade than others, but I'm still going to give the same advice either way. If I tell one person that a 2.5 gallon tank is the absolute minimum size I can ethically recommend, I'm not going to tell a more resistant person that...well, um, ok, I don't want to hurt your feelings, so um, maybe that unheated 1 gallon will work. If someone doesn't want an honest opinion of their situation, then perhaps posting on the internet isn't a good idea. 

I don't think Tolak's comments on the other post were rude. Straightfoward, honest, and to-the-point yes, but he did offer plenty of suggestions to fix the situation in addition to identifying the problem. It also didn't help that the more aggressive post aimed at him was edited to remove the offending bits, which completely changed the context of his subsequent comments.

On another note, I also find it interesting the way people perceive age on this forum (and elsewhere in life). It seems that not much responsibility is expected of kids anymore. I just remember the second I turned 13 I signed up for a babysitting course so I could learn to do CPR and be certified to work. I also managed a herd of 8 horses several days a week, by myself, with no adults even present on the property. But yet, I now have friends with 13 year old kids who they would never even expect to be able to care for a single fish tank...they have babysitters coming over to watch their 13 yr old kid instead of the 13 year old being the babysitter for someone else! I just wonder what happened to people :-?.


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

Reality was lost. Too much sugar coating and not enough accountabilityfor your actions. And then when those same kids get out in the real world, their parents just think everyone is picking on them. I am raising a future man, not a little boy. People have to realize that in the real world, no one cares about if they hurt your feelings. I care more about hearing the truth than to smother it in syrup.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

rubbie5837 said:


> Reality was lost. Too much sugar coating and not enough accountabilityfor your actions. And then when those same kids get out in the real world, their parents just think everyone is picking on them. I am raising a future man, not a little boy. People have to realize that in the real world, no one cares about if they hurt your feelings. I care more about hearing the truth than to smother it in syrup.


Preach it sista'!


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

rubbie5837 said:


> Reality was lost. Too much sugar coating and not enough accountabilityfor your actions. And then when those same kids get out in the real world, their parents just think everyone is picking on them. I am raising a future man, not a little boy. People have to realize that in the real world, no one cares about if they hurt your feelings. I care more about hearing the truth than to smother it in syrup.


Agreed entirely. Accountability is definitely falling by the wayside in today's society. Every day I hear countless people complaining about various situations, and the one common theme is that they all want to blame their shortcomings on everyone else. If they got a poor mark on an exam, it must be because the professor wasn't teaching. If they don't feel like doing something, it must be an impossibly difficult task. People just need to grow up, own their mistakes, and put a little effort into life! I'm glad that at least someone is trying to raise their children with some integrity. The truth isn't always pretty, but it is incredibly important.


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

So true. It is becoming a terrible trend of excuses and blaming others. And then set back and wonder why things are the way that they are.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

rubbie5837 said:


> Reality was lost. Too much sugar coating and not enough accountabilityfor your actions. And then when those same kids get out in the real world, their parents just think everyone is picking on them. I am raising a future man, not a little boy. People have to realize that in the real world, no one cares about if they hurt your feelings. I care more about hearing the truth than to smother it in syrup.



Nothing infuriates me more than this. If you follow this practice as a parent, you're setting your kids up for failure IMO. Kids can't excel at anything anymore because they have to be lumped in as a single unit of 20 or so so little Johnny's feelings don't get hurt :frustrated:

And to be clear on what we have to pay attention to as mods. on a quote "family friendly" forum is mostly language because we do have young members. That doesn't give the young member a pass on everything else. If you are old enough to care for a pet on your own, your responsibility is just the same as as any responsible pet owner.

Another challenge we face is when to put the brakes on finger pointing or verbal bashing of any member - no matter what the age. Telling someone that they *"should"* follow xxx requirements because we know from experience what works is vastly different from "*you're an idiot*" if you don't follow xxx requirements. 

And I'm not pointing out any thread or post specifically. We see it all the time. Those types of people need not apply here.

Lastly, there are a LOT of reports that we receive that we don't take action on because they aren't warranted.


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

Romad said:


> Nothing infuriates me more than this. If you follow this practice as a parent, you're setting your kids up for failure IMO. Kids can't excel at anything anymore because they have to be lumped in as a single unit of 20 or so so little Johnny's feelings don't get hurt :frustrated:
> 
> And to be clear on what we have to pay attention to as mods. on a quote "family friendly" forum is mostly language because we do have young members. That doesn't give the young member a pass on everything else. If you are old enough to care for a pet on your own, your responsibility is just the same as as any responsible pet owner.
> 
> ...



Maybe I am misunderstanding you, and I am sure I am, but are you in agreement with what I said or no? All I'm saying is that you shouldn't sugarcoat everything for your kids (as far as seeing nothing wrong with what they do, and making excuses for their actions). Children should be held accountable (age appropriate of course) for their actions in order to learn and grow from their mistakes. That's all I'm saying. My son goes out and bust a neighbor's window. What I would do is make my son apologise for doing that and try to work out some way of replacing it. Or such as that. In some cases, parents would just tell the neighbor that it wasn't their little baby and then arguments happen and so on. I wasn't trying to insinuate that the mods are making excuses for some members. And yes, I completely agree with the fact that if a person decided to accept owning a pet, then they should be responsible for the care of said pet. But every parent knows that when their child isn't properly caring for that pet, it's the adults responsibility to step in and either teach their children or rehome. That's just my opinion.


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

rubbie5837 said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding you, and I am sure I am, but are you in agreement with what I said or no? All I'm saying is that you shouldn't sugarcoat everything for your kids (as far as seeing nothing wrong with what they do, and making excuses for their actions). Children should be held accountable (age appropriate of course) for their actions in order to learn and grow from their mistakes. That's all I'm saying. My son goes out and bust a neighbor's window. What I would do is make my son apologise for doing that and try to work out some way of replacing it. Or such as that. In some cases, parents would just tell the neighbor that it wasn't their little baby and then arguments happen and so on. I wasn't trying to insinuate that the mods are making excuses for some members. And yes, I completely agree with the fact that if a person decided to accept owning a pet, then they should be responsible for the care of said pet. But every parent knows that when their child isn't properly caring for that pet, it's the adults responsibility to step in and either teach their children or rehome. That's just my opinion.


I think Romad was agreeing with you and saying that sugar-coating everything is hurting society


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

That's what I thought, but wanted to clarify that. I don't like to assume.


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## bullseyejoey (Apr 8, 2015)

I can say for myself that at 14 years old, I am responsible for my fish tank, I have to buy everything to take care of the fish and maintain the tank. Kids should know how to do things the right way. I will admit that I wasn't exactly in control of my tank until last year, but I take a lot better care of my tank now than ever.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

bullseyejoey said:


> I can say for myself that at 14 years old, I am responsible for my fish tank, I have to buy everything to take care of the fish and maintain the tank. Kids should know how to do things the right way. I will admit that I wasn't exactly in control of my tank until last year, but I take a lot better care of my tank now than ever.


You're a perfect example of why I don't think adults should 'dumb down' their words just because they are speaking to a minor. It actually strikes me as being rude not to treat a child the same as an adult. If it's clear to me that I am speaking to a child and they get offended by my words then I'll just step away. But I am not going to change my behavior/thoughts to anyone, even if it's just a kid. 

Your attitude about learning at any age is wonderful and refreshing!


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

bullseyejoey said:


> I can say for myself that at 14 years old, I am responsible for my fish tank, I have to buy everything to take care of the fish and maintain the tank. Kids should know how to do things the right way. I will admit that I wasn't exactly in control of my tank until last year, but I take a lot better care of my tank now than ever.


This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. I commend you for your acceptance of the responsability and for your maturity.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

bullseyejoey said:


> I can say for myself that at 14 years old, I am responsible for my fish tank, I have to buy everything to take care of the fish and maintain the tank. Kids should know how to do things the right way. I will admit that I wasn't exactly in control of my tank until last year, but I take a lot better care of my tank now than ever.


Hi bullseyejoey, welcome to the forum  Just to be clear are you saying having a tank to be responsible in taking care of was a learning curve for you ? 

I ask because its my belief everyone deserves time to learn. I am not one to frown upon children who are in that process. Studies are proving how children learn differently these days. If they are given options instead of one way they simply do better. If that takes me reaching out to help a child on this forum to give them some options, as I did with the OP, I am going to do so without judgment. 

What works for one may not work for another. If that is "sugar coating" call me guilty, that does not bother me in the least. What is more important to me is reaching out to help in a kind and civil matter. 

Along with following our forum rules ,these are all I have to go by when determining what needs to be edited or removed, my fellow Mods are of great value to me. We work hard to discuss all options and opinions behind the scenes.


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## bullseyejoey (Apr 8, 2015)

Perseusmom said:


> Hi bullseyejoey, welcome to the forum  Just to be clear are you saying having a tank to be responsible in taking care of was a learning curve for you ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, taking care of the tank myself was a learning curve! To sum things up with "my tank story" I got the 46 gallon in my signature for my 6th birthday (8 years ago). My dad and I were pretty oblivious to things you needed to do for your fish. Now that I got older, I questioned "well why the hell are all my fish dying". I'm not very close with my LFS, (not a chain store) and started volunteering there, so I learn a bunch. Now that I've learned a lot, I can use it to diagnose problems with my fish, pH levels and other water parameters. Fish are delicate creatures that really need special care and quite some time to take care of (such as water changes). People don't understand that, however there are a fair amount who do, but I think everyone should know before killing all of their fish in a day... That's my $.02 on this matter...

EDIT:*** I accidentally said I'm not close with my LFS and I am indeed very close, and forgot to mention that they have other animals such as reptiles and gerbils and birds....


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

The best way that I can put it, is this... (and it's been a learning experience for myself) Although you shouldn't sugarcoat information, if you give facts to help someone, and they choose not to listen, then you shouldn't resort to childish behavior such as cursing them or calling them names. Just give your advice and leave it alone. I know first hand, that can be difficult, but as an adult, you should be able to control yourself and not put your foot in your mouth. (I am guilty of this quite often) If you choose to let your emotions to get the best of you, then you won't be able to help anyone. It also reflects badly on you, and could give people the appearance that you are a jerk and they won't be inclined to accept any advice from you, whether you are right or wrong. Sometimes you have to be the bigger person and walk away.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your story bullseyejoey . You are a remarkable young person for hanging in there, willing to learn from your mistakes. In my opinion that is all we need to ask of any of our members here.


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## bullseyejoey (Apr 8, 2015)

Perseusmom said:


> Thanks for sharing your story bullseyejoey . You are a remarkable young person for hanging in there, willing to learn from your mistakes. In my opinion that is all we need to ask of any of our members here.



Thank you very much, that means a lot coming from a more experienced fish keeper.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Kim said:


> I think Romad was agreeing with you and saying that sugar-coating everything is hurting society


Correct!


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

rubbie5837 said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding you, and I am sure I am, but are you in agreement with what I said or no? All I'm saying is that you shouldn't sugarcoat everything for your kids (as far as seeing nothing wrong with what they do, and making excuses for their actions). Children should be held accountable (age appropriate of course) for their actions in order to learn and grow from their mistakes. That's all I'm saying. My son goes out and bust a neighbor's window. What I would do is make my son apologise for doing that and try to work out some way of replacing it. Or such as that. In some cases, parents would just tell the neighbor that it wasn't their little baby and then arguments happen and so on. I wasn't trying to insinuate that the mods are making excuses for some members. And yes, I completely agree with the fact that if a person decided to accept owning a pet, then they should be responsible for the care of said pet. But every parent knows that when their child isn't properly caring for that pet, it's the adults responsibility to step in and either teach their children or rehome. That's just my opinion.


Yes I was agreeing with you rubbie. Sorry if I was cryptic at all :roll:


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

It's fine. I didn't want to assume, so I felt it was more appropriate to ask. ;-)


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

+1 PersuesusMom

I have never seen anyone on this forum sugar coat anything. I have seen people be polite and try to help someone work with what they have instead of criticizing them for something they don't. If that is "sugar coating," then we need more of it.

Ann Landers once said: "If I valued your opinion I'd ask for it." Too many times I've seen new people seek an opinion with a specific question. Instead of answering some ignore the question and rip the OP a new one for doing something they're doing they didn't even know was poorly advised. No wonder so many never come back. Who in their right mind voluntarily subjects themselves to that treatment a second time?

As Rubbies said: If someone ignores advice or is just looking to validate bad husbandry then move on. I "Unsubscribe" and never look back.

On the other hand, _people who have been on here any length of time_ know poor husbandry (neglected water changes, no heaters, tiny tanks) is a hot-button issue. When they announce they are knowingly practicing such by starting a thread or commenting in someone else's they should man or woman up and take what they get...no matter their age. After all, they stepped in it intentionally. And, IMO, have no reason to bring out the "Sensitive Card" or whine and call responders mean or bullying.

And that's all I have to say about that. ;-)


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> +1 PersuesusMom
> 
> I have never seen anyone on this forum sugar coat anything. I have seen people be polite and try to help someone work with what they have instead of criticizing them for something they don't. If that is "sugar coating," then we need more of it.
> 
> ...




;-) to that.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Stuck as work this weekend I've been following these two threads (when I can) but they kept resonating with me throughout the day. Coming from a country where the running joke is that to shut us up, all you have to do is tie our hands down I know all too well how difficult it can be to express oneself in words. 

Oftentimes when responding to threads like these, I find that I over censor myself a lot of times and don't quite say everything that needs to be said for fear of alienating the other person as ultimately it does not benefit the fish. I see it as a fine line, if you come off too stubborn and stern, the person on the other end will dig in and not acquiesce if if they agree and their fish suffers. If you take too soft of an approach, you never get to express the importance of your point and you are easily dismissed by the other person and their fish suffers. Very few people are able to walk that line of expressing themselves to get their points across in a manner that will be accepted by the other person. 

From the OP's original thread, I completely understood what many members were trying to say ... 'it's your pet, it is ultimately your responsibility, you pet cannot hear "I can't", find a way, we're here to offer suggestions'. I felt the same. Unfortunately that point may be lost on someone younger who may be sheltered, who may not have the life experience and has learned that sometimes the best person to help you is yourself.

So my point, to all the people (young or old) who come here with an open mind to learn from those more experienced despite how the information is put forth to you, I applaud you. To those who come here to get validation on their assessments, try to keep an open mind, if not, I suggest you go read some of the gaming forums and when your eyes start to bleed feel free to come back and chat with us.

We not all be the most tactful, but that does not invalidate the information being presented.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Veloran said:


> To those who come here to get validation on their assessments, try to keep an open mind, if not, I suggest you go read some of the gaming forums and when your eyes start to bleed feel free to come back and chat with us.


LOL this is so true. Besides gaming forums if you're really up for some fun post your opinions on Reddit. This forum is a little soft kitten in an internet world that's a lion.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> LOL this is so true. Besides gaming forums if you're really up for some fun post your opinions on Reddit. This forum is a little soft kitten in an internet world that's a lion.


Lol, I don't think I've ever gotten past 5 or 6 posts on Reddit before it degenerates to name calling.


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

Wow! Reddit!  Yeah, ummm. You two struck my curiosity, and now I regret it. After 30 minutes of reading some of that, I think I need to read my bible. Just WOW! Humanity is screwed. Smh. Yeah, this forum is definitely more family friendly. Geez.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> LOL this is so true. Besides gaming forums if you're really up for some fun post your opinions on Reddit. This forum is a little soft kitten in an internet world that's a lion.


If Reddit is a lion, what does that make /an/ on 4chan? :lol: You usually won't get past 2 posts before the name calling starts in a betta thread.

But on topic, I agree with most opinions here about sugarcoating. I don't think it expresses the seriousness of a situation. And I definitely believe the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Reccka said:


> If Reddit is a lion, what does that make /an/ on 4chan? :lol: You usually won't get past 2 posts before the name calling starts in a betta thread.


Heh. 4chan honestly disturbs me. I have visited the site a few times over the years and have regretted it each time.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> Heh. 4chan honestly disturbs me. I have visited the site a few times over the years and have regretted it each time.


I'd say that's the usual response of most people. I lurk in like 3 of the slowest and most tame boards and that's about it. I would place the tame boards on Reddit level. The aquarium general is shockingly peaceful 90% of the time, to be honest.


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## rubbie5837 (Dec 22, 2014)

Yeah. That was an experience that I never wish to have again, so I will just take you guys' word on that. Geez. *deletes reddit app from 8 yr old's tablet*


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## Strawberry12 (Mar 6, 2015)

haha Reddit is ok, i've been putzing around on there since 2008 or so. You get used to it after a while and start to find the tamer areas. Like I said though, the knitting forums are the scariest. People telling me I'm a disgrace to knitting because I only knit with craft store stuff, not Super Magical Glittery Unicorn Fart yarn that's $500 a ball like they do.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Reccka said:


> I'd say that's the usual response of most people. I lurk in like 3 of the slowest and most tame boards and that's about it.


Yeah, there are a few threads on there that contain some pretty hilarious jokes/memes. And if I stayed I'd probably find a 'home' consisting of a few of them like you have. But that's how I treat Reddit. I know where to hang and where to run away, far, far, away. 



Strawberry12 said:


> People telling me I'm a disgrace to knitting because I only knit with craft store stuff, not Super Magical Glittery Unicorn Fart yarn that's $500 a ball like they do.


WTH? That is so stupid. I am impressed by anyone who can knit (I lack the patience); whether it be with the cheapest of materials or Super Magical Glittery Unicorn Far yarn. :lol: At least the drama on this forum is dealing with a living creature. So when people get heated over what they deem to be harmful advice etc. it's usually justified IMO.

If you ever want a laugh at some non-harmful drama take a look at reborn baby communities. My cousin collects dolls and turned me on to the underground community which is that of 'reborning'. The way some of them act you'd swear they think they're real babies. They are now one of my 'I'm bored and need a laugh' go-to forums for stupid humor.

ETA: Weird. I am typing out 'fart' but it's showing up live as 'far' above. lol


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## Wolfstardobe (Jan 28, 2010)

I'd like to give a bit of 2 cents on this thread.

The internet makes it so easy to misunderstand others because we miss basic verbal and non-verbal cues which greatly hinders our understanding of others. "Tone" is virtually nonexistent. It's only exacerbated by the conditioning of being attacked on other forums and sites so we automatically feel we are being attacked when a poster is blunt or when you are in the minority of an opinion group. 

It's like asking a group of people to say the first thing that pops into their head when you say dog. One person will say "Chihuahua" another will say "My black/blue/white mutt" or "Pitbull" or "collie" or "lab" it goes on forever. (It was Doberman you are all wrong JK!! :-D ) This proves that we all think differently. 

It doesn't help that more and more we are becoming conditioned to view any post without "lol" or an emoji as rude or insensitive. This is even starting to happen between close friends or family as our society evolves into a less personal era (Don't get me started on online public schools-- I have agoraphobia and I think its horrible for a vast majority of children). 

In which case the poster should ask for clarification on the matter. A quick "I feel [Emotion] when you said 'Blank' and I would appreciate it if you were a bit more sensitive next time" is often all that's needed to settle a budding issue.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

I agree that tone is virtually non-existent on the internet....but find it a very sad statement if simple, neutral information is automatically construed as negative if it doesn't have a friendly emoji. 

On this forum we deal with a lot of serious matters - and in some of them an emoji or a "lol" would not only be awkward and out of place...but would be detrimental to a straightforward information response. I'm not saying that they are *never* appropriate, they can be worked in in many ways and still be meaningful. But - I do think that some responsibility does fall on the reader for how they react to a neutral, straightforward post. Any post created without an emoji or lol should not to be automatically assumed as "insensitive" either.


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## Wolfstardobe (Jan 28, 2010)

It is very sad but I see it often on other forums. It seems to be steadily increasing in popularity even when stating facts. It's a little different on a forum as well moderated and straight forward as this one but it is a problem on the internet as a whole. Which can be misinterpreted on a forum that uses them sparingly.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

Strawberry12 said:


> haha Reddit is ok, i've been putzing around on there since 2008 or so. You get used to it after a while and start to find the tamer areas. Like I said though, the knitting forums are the scariest. People telling me I'm a disgrace to knitting because I only knit with craft store stuff, not Super Magical Glittery Unicorn Fart yarn that's $500 a ball like they do.


Oh, and just as an aside - this made me laugh. I'm not on knitting forums, and I don't knit - but I do crochet when I have the motivation to. I do know that not all yarns are equal, but you can still find some nice craft store yarn. It all depends on what you're doing with your project.

But, yeah....I don't use the Super Magical Glittery Unicorn Fart stuff either, lol! ;-)


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