# Is the Butterfly just a Variation of the Marble?



## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Well title says it all. I'm just curious because with all of the butterfly patterned Bettas I've owned, they've all ended up marbling. So, is a butterfly pattern just a variation of the marble with a white band? Or am I wrong and totally confused?! Bah! I think of the butterfly pattern as its own pattern. I don't even know anymore... :roll:


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

IIRC 'butterfly' has its own controlling gene - varigated fins (Vf) and is dominant. Marble (Mb) is partly dominant and also has its own gene notation. I don't beleive butterflies all marble, so dunno if there is a link or not. I was under the impression butterfly was able to be a stable colouration and not gauranteed to marble.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

That's what I thought when I purchased my butterfly spawn... Both parents ended up turning fully blue.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Maybe they have both butterfly and marble genes?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

From what I know, Marbling does have a stage where the fish has a butterfly pattern, however, much like BettaMummy says, I don't believe they are exactly the same thing. It's like the thing, Not all Butterflies are marbles but all marbles can be Butterflies if that makes sense lol. But that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge with that. I do believe most black butterfly bands are in the actual Butterfly category where perhaps the white/cellophane bands are part of the marble stages. Even my Red Butterfly VT boy has begun to bleed his red into the cellophane parts of his dorsal, so far his caudal is still banded which is nice.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> It's like the thing, Not all Butterflies are marbles but all marbles can be Butterflies if that makes sense lol.


I was *just* thinking of typing out the same thing! XD


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Ohhh! Much more sense! So all along all the butterflied pattern fish I've bought are all marbles?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Very likely.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

So then, how will you be able to tell the difference when your wanting to purchase a butterfly!? Or is there no identification for determining their pattern? Marble an butterfly's.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Not a clue, indjo would probably have more insight on that than I would. I am assuming that all white bands are part of the marble gene while bands like blue, black, or red are probably real butterfly patterns. That's pure guess though, don't take that to heart lol


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Interesting I'll get more info from indjo. I have another question as well, l don't want to start another thread so I thought I would ask here. In order to create a white ct Ee what must I breed? I obviously know if is err to own a partial EE ct he would have to breed with another ee, but what tail type? It's very hard to find a ct ee on AB or in my area... Do i make any sense? 

Btw sorry for any errors in advanced... Siri thinks she knows everything.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

lol Siri.

Sorry I forgot to answer your PM about that. You definitely what a female EE at least, you can try for an HM so at least you can get the spread and then work back to get full CT. It will be a long road but worth it in the end if that's what you want. 

BTW, I'm going today to see if he's there and get him for you ^_^


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Just an interesting observation; I'm not sure if it's relevant or not. I've been paying attention to pectoral fins (looking for gold) and noticed that in the really good butterflies (assuming a Vf geno), the butterfly pattern holds true _even in the pectoral fins_. Marbles may have color in the pecs, but good butterflies have two distinct bands of color in their pecs. I even see it in Magellan; he's held a stable tri-band (blue/white/clear) for four years. His pecs are banded black/clear. (It was only this January that the blue has bled outward and he lost his butterfly marks.)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Interesting! I do know that my HM Red Butterfly; Sam, so far his butterfly white band has been stable and he does have the same coloration on his pectorals as well. He's had one spike of red bleed out into the white but otherwise he's kept it. Actually I think it's part of the platinum since it's a coppery-white color, not a real white that is from blue.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Well I got to go check my boys pectoral fins haha.  Very interesting though, I'll go deeper into research about this topic since its been bugging me and all my Bettas lol

Thanks Lil! It would mean a lot if you can get him for me just pm me the cost of everything and our PayPal!


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

I believe the first butterflies were red/white or red/clear, so I would imagine white can hold stable, as can the other colours, so I wouldn't bet on a white-banded butterfly marbling. Maybe one of the instances where it would pay to buy from a breeder who can show the sire and dam? XD Its a pain in the butt(-erfly).


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I see your point. I'll start asking breeders to see if I can see the fish parents before hand.

Btw your pun is so punny XD!!!


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

I've created a monster... I should be pun-ished for setting yours up. 

I try, though most East Asian breeders I have asked so far dont have them! One of the things I will be doing is keeping a database of photos of parents so I can market fry as parents being viewable.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yea I totally pun-ched the wall on that pun lol

But I totally think that's a great idea! giving a visual guide for breeders will totally help


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

litelboyblu said:


> So, is a butterfly pattern just a variation of the marble with a white band? Or am I wrong and totally confused?! Bah! I think of the butterfly pattern as its own pattern. I don't even know anymore... :roll:


Regardless what other breeders are saying, I strongly believe that BF and marbles are two different and separate genes (or what ever they are called).

BF causes a fixed two band color on the fins. The colors may be dark/colored and clear, colored and white, or both colored. And yes, these color bands may also affect the pectorals.

Marble causes the color to change. Most often (IME) from dark/colored - pale - return to original color. Sometimes the changes goes further and even changes the original color (eg. from copper - pale - copper - turquoise). 
These color changes don't happen over night. Some may take weeks, while others months. BUT they all go through color changes. In the process, the changes may exhibit BF like patterns. BUT IMO THIS CANNOT BE CALLED BF. Nor can the cellophane stage be called cellophane. I'd call/label them by their original color - copper marble, turquoise marble, etc., including those in the cello phase. 

How do you tell one from the other-
You can't, not by looking at their pictures or at one single moment. Marbling can only be seen through time. So you MUST rely on what the breeder is labeling them. If the breeder is not familiar with marble genes, ask if the parents went through the above color changes.

o o o o o 

EE x EE = EE
CT x HM = uneven web reduction.
Preferably, use CT male to a HM female. Inbreed fry with big pectorals, web reduction, and widest caudal spread. Keep doing this until they breed true (usually 3-4 generations). You can also breed back to CTEE parent, but how wide a spread does it have? 
If you want BF pattern on them, at least one parent must be BF.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Thank you so much Indjo!! Everything is so much more clear now!


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I found this by BasementBettas, from Betta source:

"Butterfly is a result of the marble gene so you will get solids and marbles in the bunch with a few butterflies."


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