# Tumor?



## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Hi,

After doing a water change today I noticed my betta had a tumor-looking lump on his right side, near his head. He appears to be acting completely normal and does eat. 

The only thing I can think of that may have caused it was stress (if that's possible). My heater had been malfunctioning for two days, causing the temperature to rise to 86-87 F each night, but I have just put a new heater in, so that won't be a problem anymore. Could that correlate to the growth? Sometimes I have a lamp on above his tank, could that cause this problem?

The growth looks the same on the outside as the rest of his body; there is nothing coming out, it's just a lump. It looks like there is a small lump on the left side, same area, but it's definitely not as noticeable as the one on the right. The thing is, it is definitely very recent or I would have noticed it; can tumors grow that quick? Is it possible it's just inflammation? 

Any help is appreciated, thank you!

CooperS

Housing 
What size is your tank? 2.5 L
What temperature is your tank? 80-82 F
Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? Grated top
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? None

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Omega Betta Pellets (43% crude protein)
How often do you feed your betta fish? Four pellets, once a day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 50% mid week, 100% beginning of week
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Two drops SeaChem Prime per L, 0.5 TSP API aquarium salt per L

Water Parameters
Have you tested your water? No

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Yes, see pictures
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? No
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Today
Have you started treating your fish? No
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No, just fins which tear easily 
How old is your fish (approximately)? 2.5 years old


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

After looking around I came across dropsy and constipation as possible causes. Should I try fasting him?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It's hard to tell from the pictures, so are his scales sticking out (pineconing) when viewed from above, like in the first pic? If so, that indicates dropsy, which is a lot different then constipation. 

The fact that the bulge is mainly on one side makes the possibility of it being a tumor higher. Has it grown gradually, or suddenly? 

Stop adding salt to his tank, and start doing water changes at least every second day... 2.5l is really too small for a fish.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> It's hard to tell from the pictures, so are his scales sticking out (pineconing) when viewed from above, like in the first pic? If so, that indicates dropsy, which is a lot different then constipation.
> 
> The fact that the bulge is mainly on one side makes the possibility of it being a tumor higher. Has it grown gradually, or suddenly?


There is no pineconing. 

It's mostly on one side but there appears to be a very small bulge on the other.

It has grown suddenly.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Why will it help to stop adding salt?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Does anyone else have some ideas?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

So he's become more sedentary; he just sits atop his silk plants close to the surface and doesn't swim around. However, if I come around he'll swim around the tank and flare like normal, then go back to resting. While resting, he is completely motionless like when he is sleeping. Here are some more pictures. I apologize for the poor quality; it is the best I can do. 

I'm hoping it's constipation and not dropsy or a tumor. Doesn't dropsy normally develop over the entire body, not just one side? And a tumor would have grown slowly, correct? From the side view the bulge looks to be around his stomach, but I am still unsure why it's mainly on one side; is that seen in constipation? Also, I am not noticing any pineconing (cross your fingers!).

If it is constipation, should I try fasting a few days BEFORE the an epsom salt bath? Could anyone link me to good directions on how to use epsom salt, by the way? I have never had to use before.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

He is getting worse, extremely inactive. When he moves around he does a gasping motion a lot like when they take in air at the surface (bubbles come out of his gills). Can ANYONE help?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Sorry for not checking in sooner. 

Salt causes fluid retention, which is a bad thing when you are trying to treat a build up of fluids (or anything) internally. It really should not be added in the first place unless you are specifically treating something. 

If he's not pineconing, it's very unlikely to be dropsy. I would say that a tumor or blockage is most likely the cause. 

I would treat with 1-2 tsp/g of Epsom salts directly in his tank, not a bath. Epsom salts help draw fluids and act as a laxative. 

Have you done water changes recently?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> Sorry for not checking in sooner.
> 
> Salt causes fluid retention, which is a bad thing when you are trying to treat a build up of fluids (or anything) internally. It really should not be added in the first place unless you are specifically treating something.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I thought it was good to use aquarium salt always. But wouldn't the increased molarity of the water encourage flow out of the fish? 

Anyway, I just did a 100% water change yesterday; that's when I noticed the bulge. Is the extreme inactivity common in constipation? Thanks for the advice, I will get epsom salt tomorrow and try it out.

Also, is an infection possible? If so, do you know what medicine is best to use?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Also, should I leave the epsom salt in for a whole day before changing?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

This morning Marlin is moving around a lot more and I saw him poop. If it is constipation, how long does it usually take to all come out? And should I still do the epsom salt right away? (I've heard some places to keep it as a last resort if fasting does not work.) He is also flaring and coming to me when I drag my finger across the water.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Is he eating at all? Does he still has that bulge on the side?
I think it a good idea to use Epsom a little bit longer .You already using it so use a little bit longer and see how he doing. Every time you do a water change redose the new water with Epsom. You can use 2 tsp/gall like MattsBettas suggested. 
I know a lot of people recommending to do daily water changes, but i really think you can do it every other day so you don't have to stress him out. I had one of my betta severely bloated , didn't know what it was and i added Epsom. I change his water in his 2.5 gall every 3 days ,and its helped. 
I think if your betta still has that bulge on a side , or if he will continue to have it for a long time after his bowel movement then its might be a tumor though. But do not get too upset. Your betta not suffering from pain and feel bad about himself. Animals are quite adaptable, they generally get used to and accept a situation, unlike people they not not feel sorry for themselves they tend to just accept the way things are.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> Is he eating at all? Does he still has that bulge on the side?
> I think it a good idea to use Epsom a little bit longer .You already using it so use a little bit longer and see how he doing. Every time you do a water change redose the new water with Epsom. You can use 2 tsp/gall like MattsBettas suggested.
> I know a lot of people recommending to do daily water changes, but i really think you can do it every other day so you don't have to stress him out. I had one of my betta severely bloated , didn't know what it was and i added Epsom. I change his water in his 2.5 gall every 3 days ,and its helped.
> I think if your betta still has that bulge on a side , or if he will continue to have it for a long time after his bowel movement then its might be a tumor though. But do not get too upset. Your betta not suffering from pain and feel bad about himself. Animals are quite adaptable, they generally get used to and accept a situation, unlike people they not not feel sorry for themselves they tend to just accept the way things are.


Thanks  I haven't tried feeding him, because I thought it would worsen the constipation if that was the cause. The bulge is still there (it seems a little smaller, but that may just be my wishful thinking).

I actually haven't started to use the salt yet. I plan on doing a water change tonight and start using it (I was fasting him for a day or two at first). Either way, do you think it's dropsy? That's what I am really concerned about, because I know it's fatal. But from what I've heard it takes over pretty quickly so wouldn't I have noticed pineconing by now?

Also, do you think a tumor would grow that quickly? The first time I noticed it the bulge was already relatively large.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

I just did a 100% with epsom salt, cross your fingers! He seems to be a lot more responsive and non-lethargic than last night, although he's still not 100% himself and the lump hasn't regressed much. We'll see how the salt works.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Dropsy is a symptom (raised scales)that can be due to a few different reasons. It can be due to the fluid retention in the body and organs failure (more often start with kidney). The fish will have dropsy the whole length of the body. Or it can be localized due to bloating or like your fish has bulge on one side. So your fish probobly has raised scales on the side due to bulge.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

What's the max amount of days I should fast him for? Today is the third.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How is he doing behavior wise ? He pooped on tuesday and it was normal color so he don't have internal parasites.
You fast him 2 days already. If he still has that bulge on one side i would really think its not because of constipation though. I would feed him today. But give him small meals a few times a day. High protein food would also help. If you can buy him frozen blood worms. Even with my severely bloated betta, that was bloated for like 8-9 days i fast him for 1 day, and then fed small meals. He needs to get all nutrients to get strong to fight whatever he has.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> How is he doing behavior wise ? He pooped on tuesday and it was normal color so he don't have internal parasites.
> You fast him 2 days already. If he still has that bulge on one side i would really think its not because of constipation though. I would feed him today. But give him small meals a few times a day. High protein food would also help. If you can buy him frozen blood worms. Even with my severely bloated betta, that was bloated for like 8-9 days i fast him for 1 day, and then fed small meals. He needs to get all nutrients to get strong to fight whatever he has.


Thanks for the help . So even if it's not constipation it's possible the bloating could go down after a while? He's almost back to his old self; he flares and comes to me when I approach his tank. He still seems a little more tired than normal but his behavior has DEFINITELY improved.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

I've just done a 50% water change (second Epsom salt treatment). I just fed him a pellet as well and he ate it without hesitation. Here are some pictures; unfortunately the bloating hasn't subsided much.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

sorry i am not an expert. But what i think that if it not constipation, or internal parasites which is actually good then its a tumor. If you think about tumor, i never heard that tumor would reduce in size naturally. He might have swim bladder problem from that though. It puts pressure on the swim bladder,which is the organ responsible for giving the fish control over its depth in the water .Pressure or injury can cause the SB to malfunction, causing the fish to sink or float uncontrollably. Fish can still live a normal, happy life as long as he is properly accommodated. Shallow water and silk or live plants to rest on. 
You doing good job and i just want to assure you that he is not suffering. Our loved bettas don't feel bad about themselves like human is. Any pet is very adoptable to the situation they are in. As long as he is eating and acting healthy he is happy betta.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> sorry i am not an expert. But what i think that if it not constipation, or internal parasites which is actually good then its a tumor. If you think about tumor, i never heard that tumor would reduce in size naturally. He might have swim bladder problem from that though. It puts pressure on the swim bladder,which is the organ responsible for giving the fish control over its depth in the water .Pressure or injury can cause the SB to malfunction, causing the fish to sink or float uncontrollably. Fish can still live a normal, happy life as long as he is properly accommodated. Shallow water and silk or live plants to rest on.
> You doing good job and i just want to assure you that he is not suffering. Our loved bettas don't feel bad about themselves like human is. Any pet is very adoptable to the situation they are in. As long as he is eating and acting healthy he is happy betta.


Thank you for your support . The bloating still has not subsided at all...I am not sure what else to do. How long should I treat him with epsom salt for? It's been about six days. He is more or less his normal self behavior-wise.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

MattsBettas said:


> It's hard to tell from the pictures, so are his scales sticking out (pineconing) when viewed from above, like in the first pic? If so, that indicates dropsy, which is a lot different then constipation.
> 
> The fact that the bulge is mainly on one side makes the possibility of it being a tumor higher. Has it grown gradually, or suddenly?
> 
> Stop adding salt to his tank, and start doing water changes at least every second day... 2.5l is really too small for a fish.


I just noticed I meant to write 2.5 gallon in my first post, not L, haha...so used to doing school work using liters.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

lol it ok i was thinking 2.5 L just good for him since he has little difficulties to swim.

I would stop salt . Less water movements, lower the water level, i think will make his life easier. If it indeed a tumor salt will not help.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i agree


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

sunlight said:


> lol it ok i was thinking 2.5 L just good for him since he has little difficulties to swim.
> 
> I would stop salt . Less water movements, lower the water level, i think will make his life easier. If it indeed a tumor salt will not help.


Thanks, if it was indeed a build up, the salt would have helped it decrease in size by now, right? And he is actually not showing any signs of difficulty swimming surprisingly right now.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would think so. I really think it a tumor . But again he is happy and he is not suffering.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

I just checked this morning and his scales are starting to point out. I wouldn't call it pineconing yet, but they are definitely sticking out so that from above it is noticeable where one scale ends and the other begins (this is only happening on the bloating site), which was not the case before. If it gets worse and pinecones, what should I do? What do you think it means?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

is it on one side where he has the problem or its symmetrical on both sides?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> is it on one side where he has the problem or its symmetrical on both sides?


It's definitely only on one side (on the bloating), I just double checked...which is a good sign, right? And again, the scales are BARELY raised, you can only notice it if you look at a very specific angle.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes its better than if he would be pineconing the length of his body. His scales might be raised on that side because of that bloating Is he still acting the same?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> Yes its better than if he would be pineconing the length of his body. His scales might be raised on that side because of that bloating Is he still acting the same?


He's still acting like his old self . Should I add any antibiotics at this point or just wait? I feel like if it was dropsy from the beginning it would have been fatal by now.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I had one betta, he was old though, that took about 2 wks to die. His unset of the symptoms were gradual . He went from slightly pineconning to severe pineconing. But in your situation if he is pineconing only on one size meaning that the symptoms dropsy not from the organs failure but from that tumor. And you can't treat tumor in fish as far as i know . So treating him is pointless. Dropsy (raised scales) can be for a few reasons. One of the reason is edema in the body(fluid retention) which will lead to the organs failure. In this situation people recommending to use Epsom salt because it make fish dehydrate and helps to draw fluid out of the body . And i guess you can also treat it with an antibiotic to kill the bacterial infection.
But in your situation it is different since its a tumor. 
Sorry i am reading so many posts lately and i don't remember where i wrote what and what i wrote so forgive me if i am repeating myself. I just want to say that he is not feeling any pain and if he is eating he is one happy betta


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> I had one betta, he was old though, that took about 2 wks to die. His unset of the symptoms were gradual . He went from slightly pineconning to severe pineconing. But in your situation if he is pineconing only on one size meaning that the symptoms dropsy not from the organs failure but from that tumor. And you can't treat tumor in fish as far as i know . So treating him is pointless. Dropsy (raised scales) can be for a few reasons. One of the reason is edema in the body(fluid retention) which will lead to the organs failure. In this situation people recommending to use Epsom salt because it make fish dehydrate and helps to draw fluid out of the body . And i guess you can also treat it with an antibiotic to kill the bacterial infection.
> But in your situation it is different since its a tumor.
> Sorry i am reading so many posts lately and i don't remember where i wrote what and what i wrote so forgive me if i am repeating myself. I just want to say that he is not feeling any pain and if he is eating he is one happy betta


Thanks for the all the help , really.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Say he does start pineconing on both sides (just in case), which medicine should I use?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would think if old betta is pineconning then those dropsy symptoms are due to the fluid retention and you can use Epsom salt to help to draw fluid out.
I think at any time when betta's dropsy symptoms due to fluid retention you need very aggressive treatment though. I am not sure what is the chance to save a betta with those symptoms. I would use low dose of Epsom 1tsp/gall along with medications.
The good medications for internal problem are : API General Cure, Tetra Parisite Guard, very good medication that a lot of people recommending is Kanaplex by Seachem. Kanaplex you can buy only in the small private fish store or order on line.

I kept one thread from this forum that was made about 2 years ago and i also spoke to that person privately. So that person used Jungle Fungus Clear at 3 x the recommended dose + Epsom + full water changes 2 times a day. I still keep the link from that thread.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

I took out all the rocks at the bottom of his tank about four days ago to make sure he was passing feces and he appears to be doing so. It looks to be a light brown color, not white. His scales have also not pineconed. I guess it is a tumor...I just wanted to rule everything out first, since you can't really do anything to treat them. He is still very active and loves eating as usual . I've begun feeding him his pellets throughout the day to avoid buildup. Thanks for all your help Anhel. Just one thing though...do tumors really grow that quickly? It's like one day there was no lump and the next day there was. And do you know what could have caused it?


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

Maybe an abcess formed causing a rapid growth? If that happened, the epsom salts would help shrink that swelling. It's just a thought though, about why it grew fast.
I don't even know if bettas get abcesses.


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

So, I searched abcesses, and came up with this old thread on here : http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73382 
warning.. it wasn't a happy ending, but it also seemed farther along than what your guy has going on.
This fish was not acting normal. The prognosis after the fact seemed to be the best course would of been to treat with anti-bacterial meds.
Diagnosis can be so hard sometimes to pin down, sometimes it's a guessing game. 
Yes, it could be a tumor, but it could be other things too. It can also be bad to medicate for the wrong things, so since I am not an expert, I only try to look up possibilities, and let pros say what the real course of action should be.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry i didn't have a chance to read the other thread, just came home and cheeking on e mail. 
I agree a lot of time it is difficult to diagnose the fish , its just try and see if it helps.We can rule out some of the disease that accompany with bloating...but how can we know if it a tumor or abscess , i am not sure. Somehow i think abscess will look a little different though.... But if it wold be really abscess i agree Epsom would help.
Fishes develop tumors and cancers, much like humans and other animals.Most tumors are seen as bumps or lumps under the fish's skin. I am not sure how ling fish can live with a tumor. Just like you not sure how long a person will live. I guess it tumor is malignant it can grow fast. 
Most fishes get tumors or cancers due to genetic predisposition. Some fishes, however, can get tumors or cancers from a viral infection. I don't think he has viral tumor though. I think viral tumor is lymphocytes look a little different.

Is the size the same or it get bigger since he got it?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Betta Nut said:


> So, I searched abcesses, and came up with this old thread on here : http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73382
> warning.. it wasn't a happy ending, but it also seemed farther along than what your guy has going on.
> This fish was not acting normal. The prognosis after the fact seemed to be the best course would of been to treat with anti-bacterial meds.
> Diagnosis can be so hard sometimes to pin down, sometimes it's a guessing game.
> Yes, it could be a tumor, but it could be other things too. It can also be bad to medicate for the wrong things, so since I am not an expert, I only try to look up possibilities, and let pros say what the real course of action should be.


Wow, thank you so much for that thread. He looks almost exactly like the fish in that. The only thing is...the owner of that thread said the bloated spot was transparent...which my fish's definitely is not. But the shape and location...it's spot on. That thread never really seemed to come to a conclusion...which medication do you think I should use? I know there are many types and I've never had experiences with them before.


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

yeah, I linked it only because the way it was sticking out mainly on the one side seemed similar. It could be something totally different though, which is why I felt like these things are hit and miss. I am hoping a veteran will chime in on this. Maybe can you shine a flashlight behind him and see if it kinda gives you an X-ray effect to see what's going on in there?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Betta Nut said:


> yeah, I linked it only because the way it was sticking out mainly on the one side seemed similar. It could be something totally different though, which is why I felt like these things are hit and miss. I am hoping a veteran will chime in on this. Maybe can you shine a flashlight behind him and see if it kinda gives you an X-ray effect to see what's going on in there?


I will do that tomorrow and let you know; he's sleeping right now. There's definitely not any discoloration (yellow) like the other thread owner saw, though.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> Sorry i didn't have a chance to read the other thread, just came home and cheeking on e mail.
> I agree a lot of time it is difficult to diagnose the fish , its just try and see if it helps.We can rule out some of the disease that accompany with bloating...but how can we know if it a tumor or abscess , i am not sure. Somehow i think abscess will look a little different though.... But if it wold be really abscess i agree Epsom would help.
> Fishes develop tumors and cancers, much like humans and other animals.Most tumors are seen as bumps or lumps under the fish's skin. I am not sure how ling fish can live with a tumor. Just like you not sure how long a person will live. I guess it tumor is malignant it can grow fast.
> Most fishes get tumors or cancers due to genetic predisposition. Some fishes, however, can get tumors or cancers from a viral infection. I don't think he has viral tumor though. I think viral tumor is lymphocytes look a little different.
> ...


I THINK it has gotten SLIGHTLY bigger, but has since maintained the same size. It is hard to tell. It's definitely not growing out of control, though, or even at a noticeable rate.


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

On your post #8 in this thread, you said he was gasping, and bubbles were coming out of his gills? This was when he wasn't at the surface?
If this is so, it could maybe be hinting at a stuck air pocket in him, which really is what seemed to be the case with the other fish. I don't know if, or how, bettas would get "gas", or what to do about it... I also don't see how a bubble in his stomach would get out the gills, but betta anatomy isn't my forte


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Betta Nut said:


> On your post #8 in this thread, you said he was gasping, and bubbles were coming out of his gills? This was when he wasn't at the surface?
> If this is so, it could maybe be hinting at a stuck air pocket in him, which really is what seemed to be the case with the other fish. I don't know if, or how, bettas would get "gas", or what to do about it... I also don't see how a bubble in his stomach would get out the gills, but betta anatomy isn't my forte


I am beginning to think it may have something to do with gas...hopefully someone more experienced than us can help.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I got messaged by Betta Nut about my fish. I have no idea what happened to my male betta. I had a female also present with the same symptoms but they were the only two to do so out of dozens of bettas I owned at the time.

Unfortunately, I can't offer much insight. The only suggestion I can offer is that I did have someone suggest internal hexamita as a cause of the bloating. Might be something worth looking into. 

Otherwise, sorry about your fish. It is so difficult when symptoms are vague or cover a range of possibilities.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks for the input LittleBettaFish.

Okay guys, so I've shined a light and taken some pictures. It's definitely not a gas pocket, because the lump is not transparent; there's definitely a mass in there. As I've said I cleared his tank of pellets to examine feces and I shined a light on some this morning and it was white! That means an infection, right? So how do I know which antibiotics to use? I'll run out and get them today. Also, should I re-administer epsom salt?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

I am thinking of treating with Jungle Parasite Clear tabs...as well as the jungle anti-parasite food...does this sound good?


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

Oh good, at least we probably know what it is now 
Sounds like if you can pick those two Jungle products up, it'll be a good thing.
Just follow directions on the package to the T, and hopefully this will all be better soon. Good luck!


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

The only thing is...how could he have gotten internal parasites? The only thing I feed him is pellets.


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

Who knows, tap water, something that might of been on your hands, maybe even airborne on a fleck of dust. I know fish can get stuff mysteriously with nothing to point a finger at, no new things in the tank, which is another reason it can be so hard to diagnose sometimes.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm having trouble finding a place that sells it...do you know of any similar medicine? Also, from what I've read, most internal parasites cause the betta to lose weight, not bloat. Can white poop be a sign of something else?


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## Betta Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

Well, any pet store that sells fish other than walmart should have some brand of meds designed for parasite treatment. 
I think the various brands have the same basic medicine in them. It'd say on the box it's for internal parasites. 
Just be sure internal, and not external, different medicine.
And I suppose white poop could be something else, although I don't know what. 
The reason it's white is because the parasites are stealing all the nutrients and leaving nothing behind. He may not be losing weight yet because it's early on.
Also, I wanted to add as to how he may have gotten it, I guess parasites are actually present almost always in most tanks, they just take hold when a fish is weakened. Since your guy is getting rather mature, his immune system might be a little weaker.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Betta Nut said:


> Well, any pet store that sells fish other than walmart should have some brand of meds designed for parasite treatment.
> I think the various brands have the same basic medicine in them. It'd say on the box it's for internal parasites.
> Just be sure internal, and not external, different medicine.
> And I suppose white poop could be something else, although I don't know what.
> ...


Thanks a lot


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

I managed to get a hold of Tetra Parasite Guard. Have you heard anything good/bad about this? It claims to treat internal and external parasites. It contains praziquantel and metronidzaole, which I've seen come up a lot as helpful on other threads. I will begin treatment with this tomorrow as I've already performed a 100% water change today. Cross your fingers!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

hmmm you made the thread on 1/5 and his poo was normal , and this is the first time when he had it white. It could be also due to stress, infection ,but there is no way to check it. Keep eye on it. Tetra medications has good ingredients that helps with internal parasites/infection.
And just like Betta Nut said parasites always present in the system but attack the body when the immune system compromised. The more he eats the better it is to pass the parasites out. 
Do not stop medications if his poo will continue to be white, you can use it for a few rounds.
Good luck , will wait for an updated.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks guys. so do you know if it's okay to mix the Tetra Parasite Guard with Epsom salt to flush the dead parasites out? Or should I not do that? And if the box says a tablet is for 10 gallons it's okay for me to split it into quarters for my 2.5, right?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

The medication is in. I will let you guys know the results in the coming days. Thanks so much for your help so far.

He still has a good attitude; I fed him four pellets this morning and he ate without questioning. He also made a very small bubble nest two days ago.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

You can use Epsom low dose along with med's but if he is pooping daily then hold on that. Good luck will wait for an update. Keep eye on poo.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

*Update*

His feces doesn't look white anymore, more light-brownish like it's supposed to. I am almost done with 2 treatments. The bulge has not gone down though even though he has made 3-4 bowel movements in the past 48 hours, one of them quite large. Although he still eats readily, he is rather lethargic today...could that be a result of the harsh meds taking a toll on him?

I have also noticed some non-moving black tiny black specs along his tail which I have read us indicative of external parasites, but I am assuming if it was they would have been killed by the medicine. Just figured I should bring that up.

Anyway...because he is lethargic should I stop medication today or finish the last day as recommended by the directions? I figured after I would do a 100% and use Epsom salt to try and flush any dead things out...if they are in there. What do worms in betta feces look like?


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

The only other thing I can think is...bacterial infection? I have no read about any infection with my symptoms...has anyone else? I definitely won't treat for that unless I can find a probable bacterium.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hesitate to say about if you need to stop medications. As far as i know the worms are white,clear. Today is first day when he is a little lethargic?
I would think if the poo is normal color and more than once you can discontinue with meds.
black specs might be external parasites like you said. Did you see any scratching? I am afraid that you might need to use another medications for those. Let me ask for help. I am not sure about how to identify those black specs. I don't want you to over treat him .
I will be back....i guess you have time if you need to do another change today.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> Hesitate to say about if you need to stop medications. As far as i know the worms are white,clear. Today is first day when he is a little lethargic?
> I would think if the poo is normal color and more than once you can discontinue with meds.
> black specs might be external parasites like you said. Did you see any scratching? I am afraid that you might need to use another medications for those. Let me ask for help. I am not sure about how to identify those black specs. I don't want you to over treat him .
> I will be back....i guess you have time if you need to do another change today.


Definitely no scratching. Today is the first lethargic day and since he is still eating I will finish the treatment which ends tomorrow. Hopefully he is just tired from fighting the parasites. The med I used is supposed to treat external parasites as well which is why I don't think they are.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I didn't get the chance to read through the whole post but I read up to page three and this page. Is this a 2.5 GALLON or LITER? That is two very different things, in your original post you say 2.5L which tells me liter but it looks more like a 2.5 gallon from the pictures.

I still think it is a tumor in which you can't do anything except keep him comfy with a low dosage of Epsom salt. Around .5 teaspoons per Gallon of salt, always dissolved beforehand and acclimated slowly to the first time he's put into it. His poop being white can be actually from a few different things, is it stringy though or does it still look sort of solid?

Those black specs might have just been part of his slime coat shedding which is normally clear but obviously clear things can take on other colors depending on what's behind it and around it so something could have been making it look darker. But medication and salts can cause iritation to the Slime Coat and cause it to overproduce and then the old one sheds as the new one comes in.

If this was internal parasites the bloat would be equal on both sides of the fish, not to just one side.


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

lilnaugrim said:


> I didn't get the chance to read through the whole post but I read up to page three and this page. Is this a 2.5 GALLON or LITER? That is two very different things, in your original post you say 2.5L which tells me liter but it looks more like a 2.5 gallon from the pictures.
> 
> I still think it is a tumor in which you can't do anything except keep him comfy with a low dosage of Epsom salt. Around .5 teaspoons per Gallon of salt, always dissolved beforehand and acclimated slowly to the first time he's put into it. His poop being white can be actually from a few different things, is it stringy though or does it still look sort of solid?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply,

Yeah I accidentally wrote 2.5 L in the original post but later corrected it to 2.5 gallons (so used to doing school work in liters, sorry ).

And yeah the black specs have some of his light blue scale color over them so I don't think they are parasites, I just wanted to be sure.

And about the parasites, really? There's no chance it could be parasites if there is only bloating on one side? The main reason I didn't think it was a tumor is because it grew so quickly...have you heard of that before?

When his poop was white it seemed solid but longer than usual rather than ballish with a tail like normal.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh okay! No worries, happens to the best of us haha. I just wanted to make sure since what I had read through I hadn't seen it corrected yet.

And yes, tumors can literally almost pop up overnight, of course it may not be an actual tumor but it could also be Lymphocystis or a regular cyst growing inside his body. Lympho tends to infect the insides of their gills, eventually suffocating them but it can also grow on their internal organs, causing a bulge like this one. Most often though, you will see it on the outside of the fish, usually in small white pink-ish dots that will occasionally move around overnight. The tumor could be growing all along but finally decided to grow large enough to show the bump. You know how like a woman get's pregnant but you don't see the baby bump start to show until after 3-4 months generally. It's the same idea, it's growing all along but finally is showing.

White poop but solid is good, that comes about from stressors and sometimes sudden changes in diet, among other stuff. It doesn't always have to ball up, sometimes it will come out in a solid string, this is different from it being STRINGY which would have some clear spots and white spots and not solid looking at all. Poop comes in all shapes and sizes and occasionally colors too, same thing with humans lol. So my bet is still on a Tumor like illness, whether it's Tumor, cyst or Lympho, we'll not know until after his death and if a necropsy is done on him. But that's rather morbid I know.

For now, keep him in .5 teaspoons of Epsom Salt per gallon, this will help draw out the fluid if it's a tumor, it will keep him more comfortable at least. And if it is parasites, that will also draw them out. But keep on with twice weekly water changes as should be done and replace the salt that you've taken out, so if you take out half the water, put back half the salt which would be .75 teaspoons in total


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

lilnaugrim said:


> Oh okay! No worries, happens to the best of us haha. I just wanted to make sure since what I had read through I hadn't seen it corrected yet.
> 
> And yes, tumors can literally almost pop up overnight, of course it may not be an actual tumor but it could also be Lymphocystis or a regular cyst growing inside his body. Lympho tends to infect the insides of their gills, eventually suffocating them but it can also grow on their internal organs, causing a bulge like this one. Most often though, you will see it on the outside of the fish, usually in small white pink-ish dots that will occasionally move around overnight. The tumor could be growing all along but finally decided to grow large enough to show the bump. You know how like a woman get's pregnant but you don't see the baby bump start to show until after 3-4 months generally. It's the same idea, it's growing all along but finally is showing.
> 
> ...


Hm...thanks a lot for the info. So there's nothing I can do if I suspect it's a cyst, lympho, etc? :/


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Not without opening the fish up and that's kind of a moot point since we want him to live lol


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh lilnaugrim thank you for coming soon as always!


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Well...

Sometime during the night last night Marlin passed away. He seemed completely fine two days ago and then yesterday his health began declining fast despite the fact he ate yesterday morning. Swim Bladder Syndrome developed so quickly that by the time night arrived he had to struggle immensely to reach the top of the tank and couldn't stay up there without resting on his plants.

I had a feeling it may have been the end so I told him I loved him and went up to bed. When I came down this morning he was gone . Wherever he is, I only hope he had a happy life.

He was my first boy I ever had and I got him way back in October 2011. It is funny because I had him in a little one gallon and had no idea what I was doing; I didn't even know you needed a thermometer in your tank or you needed to do water changes. But I learned so much through taking care of him and he must have been a real fighter to keep up.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you everyone for taking the time out of your day to help me. Despite the fact I couldn't save him I still learned a lot with your guys' help which will help me take care of my future bettas.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm so sorry Cooper, I'm sure it was a peaceful passing. I'm glad you learned a lot through him though, that's one of the most important aspects I believe so that way you're better prepared for the future, even if the future doesn't hold fish keeping  so it's a win all around in that way. But I'm sorry about your little boy though, may he swim in peace under the Rainbow Bridge!


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

Thank you, is it normal for their skin to begin to decompose very quickly? I noticed there was a lot of what looked to be skin flakes in the water and coming off of him. I just want to make sure it doesn't mean he was infected or something...I would still like to know what got him.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

It could have been his slime coat shedding in larger quantities. Or do you mean it was white/clear and sort of fluffy all over him? That's all pretty standard as far as Betta deaths go. The tank should be fine. Just give a good water change to get rid of any of the flakes


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

lilnaugrim said:


> It could have been his slime coat shedding in larger quantities. Or do you mean it was white/clear and sort of fluffy all over him? That's all pretty standard as far as Betta deaths go. The tank should be fine. Just give a good water change to get rid of any of the flakes


Yeah, it was like transparent skin flakes, like the way our skin flakes would look, and fluffly. Thanks, I just wanted to make sure.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Np!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh Cooper so sorry, you was doing everything to save him. I am sure he had a good life! 
If you getting another fish i would still disinfect the tank . I love lilnaugim's instructions on that. Let us know and we will post them for you. And well i am a betta lover and i hate to see them in the store so i really hope that you will rescue another happy guy or a girl lol 
Don't be sad , he was happy and had a good life , not is time to give good life to another betta;-) I love to save another little life


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## CooperS (Dec 7, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> Oh Cooper so sorry, you was doing everything to save him. I am sure he had a good life!
> If you getting another fish i would still disinfect the tank . I love lilnaugim's instructions on that. Let us know and we will post them for you. And well i am a betta lover and i hate to see them in the store so i really hope that you will rescue another happy guy or a girl lol
> Don't be sad , he was happy and had a good life , not is time to give good life to another betta;-) I love to save another little life


Infections on how to disinfect the tank would be great, thanks so much.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I used to recommend to use a bleach ,but then i found lilnaugrim's instruction on disinfection and i love them. That is what she wrote:
'' go to wal-mart and get either 70% or 91% (I like the higher concentration) Rubbing Alcohol. Alcohol will sterilize everything including Mycobacteria if there's a threat of that. There's nothing else that will kill Myco's besides UV ray's but that usually takes longer. So Alcohol kills everything and will be your best friend in cleaning! i also find it's just easier to use since you can spray it directly on things where in bleach you have to mix with water and all and it's just a pain.

I use a spray bottle, make sure you label it as Alcohol, wouldn't want anyone getting into it that they shouldn't! And then spray everything, net's, cups, tanks, heater's, gravel too if you want, plants, the entire thing. Everything he's come in contact with, then rinse with hot tap water, let dry and you're good to go ''

Let us know about new guy!


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