# Fin rot? Severe? What to do?



## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

I know there is a lot about fin rot available, and I have read through much of it. But what is happening with our crown tail beta (Sammy) doesn't seem to "fit" what we have read. 

Background: we got Sammy about five months ago: a present for our 9 yea old, though we all take care of him. He's alone in the tank, five gallon tank, filter, some artificial silk plants for cover. When we first got him, he was pretty happy, flared some (never a lot), made some small bubble nests. We followed the fish store directions and did not overfed; changed water 20% weekly. However...to be honest, we did a lot very wrong. We were not cleaning the tank properly and so lots of stuff built up on the floor (only recently did we actually figure out the siphon properly). I am sure teh water was in bad shape, though we have not yet tested it (test kit is on order). Over the months, Sammy got more and more lethargic, his color faded badly on both his body and fins. His fins also have become extremely tattered. Only in the last week or so did we finally (again, our fault) start to take more dramatic action: 70-80% water change every couple of days, really careful vacuuming of the tank, etc. We have also tried to feed him a bit more. (we got the advice of one pellet twice a day, but the














more I have read, I am convinced that was just not enough; plus we have added in more variety and treats). He has responded very well: much more energy, etc.

OK, the fins. They look really bad. He went from having beautiful blue fins to the tattered ones you see here. They are tattered an is some places there is not much fin. The color has faded. There ar e few very small holes in the fins. At the very end of some of the fin rays, the rays look like they are frayed and in some places white. don't see any really black sections, and I have never seen fin pieces falling off. Fortunately, I his body does not seem to be infected.

Obviously fin rot. I But I have not seen any good pictures online to compare and to determine for how severe. What are teh with dots at the end of the rays? Is this fungus, or just frayed fins? We asked the fish store guy about medication, he looked at the pictures and he seemed to think that Sammy was just badly stressed by the poor water conditions and that he did not need any medication: just clean the water and keep feeding him. 

What does everyone here think? Are we past the "just clean the water" stage? How long should it take for Sammy to start to regrow fins? I am trying to check him more frequently but it is ver difficult to see any progress. Plus, he was never teh most ambitious guy (never flared much, etc) so I don't have a good way to compare his behaviour.

These are the best pics I could take of his fins. All of this fins seem very frail.

We are first time better owners. and definitely need help!


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

Please copy and paste into a new message and fill out this form when seeking help for your Betta.









*****PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Fill out this form so...


Many thanks to BF/TFK Member Mike for developing this questionnaire. It is the same form with a few additions. Please copy and paste into a new message and complete this form when seeking help for your Betta. This information and a clear photo posted directly into the thread will help us give...




www.bettafish.com


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Oops, I should have looked at this first. Do I start a new thread, or fill out the questionnaire in this thread?



X skully X said:


> Please copy and paste into a new message and fill out this form when seeking help for your Betta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

Just fill it out on this thread no worries
Op! Never mind I see you stared a new thread lol all good


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? 5 gallons
Does it have a filter? yes
Does it have a heater? yes
What temperature is your tank? heater is fixed to 78 degrees F
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? no

Food:
What food brand do you use? Hikari betta pellets, plus some Omega One brine shrimp, occasional freeze dried blood worms, and recently frozen bloodworms. 
Do you feed flakes or pellets? pellets
Freeze-dried? freeze dried bloodworms once a week
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? Before one pellet twice a day, recently increased to two pellets twice a day.

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? once per week
What percentage of water did you change? 20%
What is the source of your water? tap water, dechlorinated
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? Mostly just dip out; when we vacuumed, we were not doing it correctly until only just recently (see below)
What additives do you use? What brand of conditioner? dechlorinator and cycle

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water _before_ the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia: do not know, never tested; test kit on delivery
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms? several weeks ago at least, more lethargic, color change, etc
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? Body color from all blue to more brown-green; fins from deeper blue to light almost white blue with some red; fins have become tattered
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? He flares very rarely (though he never did much), lethargic, stays near top of tank, though more active in last week as we have started water changes
Is your Betta still eating? Yes, and appetite improved since 
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? Yes. We started changing 70-80% of water about every other day, and much more careful vacuuming of gravel, slight increase in food, addition of frozen bloodworm treat
Does your Betta have any history of being ill?
How long have you owned your Betta? five months
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? no

PLEASE PROVIDE CLEAR PHOTOS

NOTE: EMBED YOUR PHOTOS. PLEASE DO NOT LINK. Click on the paper clip in the toolbar.

Your fish is your responsibility.
When seeking help be thorough as members give advice based on the information _you_ provide. While we have many knowledgeable fish keepers here, please remember that members' opinions are their own and that it is up to you to determine the best course of action for your fish. We are not responsible for any consequences resulting from following the advice you receive here.

=====
Additional information: 

Background: we got Sammy about five months ago: a present for our 9 yea old, though we all take care of him. He's alone in the tank, five gallon tank, filter, some artificial silk plants for cover. When we first got him, he was pretty happy, flared some (never a lot), made some small bubble nests. We followed the fish store directions and did not overfed; changed water 20% weekly. However...to be honest, we did a lot very wrong. We were not cleaning the tank properly and so lots of stuff built up on the floor (only recently did we actually figure out the siphon properly). I am sure teh water was in bad shape, though we have not yet tested it (test kit is on order). Over the months, Sammy got more and more lethargic, his color faded badly on both his body and fins. His fins also have become extremely tattered. 

Treatment: Only in the last week or so did we finally (again, our fault) start to take more dramatic action: 70-80% water change every couple of days, really careful vacuuming of the tank, etc. We have also tried to feed him a bit more. (we got the advice of one pellet twice a day, but the more I have read, I am convinced that was just not enough; plus we have added in more variety and treats). He has responded very well: much more energy, etc.

OK, the fins. They look really bad. He went from having beautiful blue fins to the tattered ones you see here. They are tattered an is some places there is not much fin. The color has faded. There ar e few very small holes in the fins. At the very end of some of the fin rays, the rays look like they are frayed and in some places white. don't see any really black sections, and I have never seen fin pieces falling off. Fortunately, I his body does not seem to be infected.

Obviously fin rot. I But I have not seen any good pictures online to compare and to determine for how severe. What are teh with dots at the end of the rays? Is this fungus, or just frayed fins? We asked the fish store guy about medication, he looked at the pictures and he seemed to think that Sammy was just badly stressed by the poor water conditions and that he did not need any medication: just clean the water and keep feeding him.

What does everyone here think? Are we past the "just clean the water" stage? How long should it take for Sammy to start to regrow fins? I am trying to check him more frequently but it is ver difficult to see any progress. Plus, he was never teh most ambitious guy (never flared much, etc) so I don't have a good way to compare his behaviour.

These are the best pics I could take of his fins. All of this fins seem very frail.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

I submitted this in a second thread, with an additional picture, shown here. Sorry for the double post!


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Can you get a picture from directly over him?

To me it looks like the fins are a secondary symptom, his body is very skinny in these photos and his spine may be curving. These are signs of malnutrition & starvation, which based on your feeding schedule is likely. Underfeeding will lower a betta's entire body condition, including reducing their ability to repair their fins.

You can go ahead and lower the volume of water changes again, 70-80% every other day is going to be more stressful than helpful in his case. I would say two 25% changes weekly for now.


Feed him as many frozen bloodworms as it takes for his stomach to become slightly rounded and "full", once a day.

For a second daily meal feed enough pellets to also round out his stomach, but you'll want to increase the amount slowly at first. If he's used to two pellets then give him just three for a few days, and then increase to four, etc. You may find that even going slowly like this his system gets backed up since he's not used to a lot of food at once, if that happens then just skip his next feeding and reduce the amount again.

The freeze-dried foods are good as a treat, but don't have very much nutrition. However frozen foods are considered to be a great source of proteins and good fats, so feeding them daily will help him regain strength and body mass.

If you have the budget I'd encourage you to consider replacing his pellet as well. Hikari is _not_ the worst food, but it does have several plant-based fillers in its ingredients, which bettas have a hard time digesting. A food with mostly fish/seafood ingredients and as few veggies as possible will be able to give your betta better nutrition packed into the same amount of pellets/flakes. Some good brands to look for are Omega One, New Life Spectrum, Northfin, and Bug Bites- most pet stores should have at least one available.


Once his food is taken care of I think his fins will start to heal on their own, though it won't happen overnight. I'd expect to see improvements in a week or two, it can be a slow process and his fins may never return to their original state.

There does seem to be an active fin rot infection but I don't think his fins are bad enough to need antibiotics, and any sort of medicine is going to be too stressful on him based on his body condition right now anyway. So I would focus on feeding him more to improve his overall strength and vigor, and only if the fins are still deteriorating in a week's time consider a stronger treatment.

For now you can add a small amount of Aquarium salt to his tank to encourage the infection to die out and help keep the edges clean as he starts to heal. I would use 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, for no more than ten days at a time. If you see the fins get worse over the course of the week, you can bump up the salt to 1 teaspoon per gallon.

You can also add in Indian Almond Leaves or Rooibos Tea (pure, no flavors/additives) which are considered to have mild antiseptic qualities to them. The trade off is that they will stain the water a tea-like brown, which bettas enjoy but you may not like the look of.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Thanks for the answer iand information. Here a couple of pictures. Yes, I had long thought that we did not feed him enough and that he looked thin. But the fish store guy strongly warned against over feeding and gave us the same-size-as-the-eyeball rule, and any websites also made overfeeding sound scary. We should have acted sooner, but it was only when he became _so lethargic_ that I decided that he needed more food. I will look into getting him some higher quality pellets, and we will definitely make more use of the frozen bloodworms. 

We purchased aquariums salt, but have waited to use it. But it sounds like we should start. (Also, we need yto get that test kit delivered, but COVID19 is slowing everything down).


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Follow Rana's advice and he should heal. Especially about the water changes.

IAL and Rooibos also have antibacterial and antifungal properties.

It's not true a Betta's stomach is the size of its eye. I swear, I don't know where people come up with these things.


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks for the pics! He's definitely skinny, but _not_ so skinny that I would worry he's about to keel over. Some more food on a regular basis should perk him back up again. 

A lot of advice for feeding emphasizes small amounts because many new fishkeepers have no idea what portion sizes to use at first, and dump huge amounts of food in. (Particularly with flakes, which are harder to keep track of vs pellets which can be counted) Bettas are also somewhat more prone to constipation compared to other aquarium fish, which is another reason small portion sizes are recommended.

But this advice backfires sometimes with people taking it to an extreme, like your LFS was advising you to do. It's hard to give specific numbers for portion sizes since every betta is different, but around four or five high-quality pellets a day is a good place to start, and adjust based on your betta's reaction once he's gotten some more mass built up.

In general if you look at him from above, you want to see the head merge smoothly into the body. If the head is larger (As in your pictures) it means the betta is underfed; if the body swells out further than the head, it can indicate over-feeding. (But when judging fullness right after a meal look at him from the side, not the top)


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## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi! I'm not an expert, but my opinion is that you're doing better than you think 

Once you receive your water test kit you'll have a much more informed idea of how his water is and can proceed from there. You should eventually be able to decrease the amount of water you change back to 20-25% every couple of days. Also, if you haven't seen them there are sticky threads at the tops of the various forums on this site that have excellent information about water changes et al 

You may start to see clear membrane in his fins, which will be his fins re-growing.

If you aren't already, use Seachem Prime as your water conditioner, and also use it for the inbetween days when you aren't actually doing a water change - it locks up ammonia.

One other thing is that you may want to obtain a food that has more whole fish ingredients (rather than fish meal) towards the beginning of the ingredient list, such as New Life Spectrum, and follow the directions on the tub so that he's getting as much as he can consume within 60-90 seconds, and after that time frame remove any uneaten food.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Thanks for all of the advice. We have started aquarium salt, 1/2 teaspoon/gallon, and we have upped his feeding considerable. He certainly seems to have a lot more energy. 

We have dug up some old before pictures from when we first got him. They are not the best quality but you can he has lost so much of his fins--more than I realized until I saw these pics again.

I am worried that I will need to be more aggressive in trying to fight through this fin rot. I know it will not heal overnight, but it does look like the ends of his fins and rays are still frayed/black. 

I'm quite ashamed we allowed his condition to deteriorate for so long before seeking advice.































Meanwhile, still waiting for the test kit to arrive.


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## fatblonde (Apr 20, 2020)

voxborealis said:


> Thanks for the answer iand information. Here a couple of pictures. Yes, I had long thought that we did not feed him enough and that he looked thin. But the fish store guy strongly warned against over feeding and gave us the same-size-as-the-eyeball rule, and any websites also made overfeeding sound scary. We should have acted sooner, but it was only when he became _so lethargic_ that I decided that he needed more food. I will look into getting him some higher quality pellets, and we will definitely make more use of the frozen bloodworms.
> 
> We purchased aquariums salt, but have waited to use it. But it sounds like we should start. (Also, we need yto get that test kit delivered, but COVID19 is slowing everything down).
> View attachment 1018938
> View attachment 1018939



I'm with you on the food thing. I would literally have to feed my betta 2 pellets a day and I would be at the size of his eyeball. I started feeding frozen foods brine shrimp, mysis, bloodworms and even then I'm concerned I'm overfeeding because it's way more than the size of his eyeball. Does anyone know of a good video that shows an actual amount of food to feed them?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

With Crown Tail Betta it is very difficult to tell the difference between fin rot and other fin issues. We once had a thread from someone who was told both on FB and another Forum that her perfectly lovely CT Betta had fin rot!

Right now your Betta is very weak and the best thing you can do is keep his water clean and him well-fed. I would urge you to purchase something more nutritious than Hikari. NorthFin Betta Bits, New Life Spectrum, Omega One are three. Supplement with Fluval Betta Bites (medium to large) and frozen. If you give freeze dried, soak it a bit before feeding.

As far as how much, it depends on the size of the pellets and the size of the fish. Betta are only dangerously "overfed" when they receive too much at _*one*_ meal. That is why it is best to feed three meals of 3-4 pellets; Morning, noon and night.

Antibiotics are very hard on fish. If you try them now, especially if they are not indicated, you will do more harm than good; possibly irreparable. 

It took him a while to get this way; it will take him a while to show improvement and recover. Do not overthink what's going on. The _cavea_t is unless he stops eating and become lethargic.

Here is something that may help you.









Let's Talk: Fin Rot vs. Fin Biting


Fin Biting vs. Fin Rot Every now and then there is an influx of posts on if my Betta has fin rot and what to do! So here is a thread to explain what you all what to know. As first time keepers we may read a page on fin rot and then look at our fish and suddenly believe our fish has fin rot! So...




www.bettafish.com


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## fatblonde (Apr 20, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> With Crown Tail Betta it is very difficult to tell the difference between fin rot and other fin issues. We once had a thread from someone who was told both on FB and another Forum that her perfectly lovely CT Betta had fin rot!
> 
> Right now your Betta is very weak and the best thing you can do is keep his water clean and him well-fed. I would urge you to purchase something more nutritious than Hikari. NorthFin Betta Bits, New Life Spectrum, Omega One are three. Supplement with Fluval Betta Bites (medium to large) and frozen. If you give freeze dried, soak it a bit before feeding.
> 
> ...


Do their fins also melt back a bit as they age? I assume they can't stay looking glorious forever though, if so I kinda want what they have🤭


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

fatblonde said:


> Do their fins also melt back a bit as they age? I assume they can't stay looking glorious forever though, if so I kinda want what they have🤭


Not always. The only thing written in concrete in aquatics is nothing is written in concrete.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Thanks again for everyone's advice. We have upped feeding using frozen bloodworms (starting a couple fo days ago) and better quality pellets (starting today--Bug Bites, best we can find locally until shipments from the US open up). We were able to purchase some test kits, here are the results today:

Ammonia: between 0.0 and 0.25 (hard to read the color)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.5
Hardness (GH): 120
Alkalinity (KH): 80 (or maybe 40, hard to read)

We started some salt a few days ago per Rana's suggestion, 1/2 teaspoon per gallon. We will stop this in another seven days, ie 10 day treatment.

We are doing 20/25% water change three days or so (twice a week), and continuing to really vacuum the gravel (this was one of the main problems before).

Clearly the water has a bit of ammonia. 

Should we continue to add cycle each water change, to encourage good bacteria growth, or simply let the colony develop on its own since we had been adding cycle before regularly?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

What do the directions say for the product you're using to cycle? I know SeaChem Stability is used for eight straight days. But it is not the same as products like QuickStart and Dr. Tim's.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

We are using Nutrafin Cycle, which directs to cycle new aquarium (we did that) and to add a small amount with each regular water change, though it is not clear from the directions if we need to add the amount for the entire tank or just for the amount of water that we have changed (we have done the latter). And here too we received contradictory advice from the local fish store dude, who told us not to keep adding with each change since the colony is developed.

Obviously at this point, with such poor water for so long and with frequent changes recently, there is not much of a colony there. So I guess with the next 25% water change (tomorrow) at minimum we would add the suggested amount...for the whole 5 gallon tank?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I would add with every water change. Once you have 0 ppm Ammonia and Nitrites and see Nitrates you know your tank is cycled.

If I were using the produce I would probably add a quarter to half the original dose. I don't know if Nutrafin has responsive customer service, but if they do you can ask them just to be sure.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

OK, we did a water change today (third day after teh last one). Ammonia still low (max .25), no nitrites, no nitrates. Still using a small amount of salt (will do this for one more change then stop). Used cycle.

Feeding is improved. he eats like a champ, and is more active, but still has a long ways to go. In my view, his fins are looking _worse_, with lots of tearing at the ends. I imagine a lot of weakened and dead stuff will have to fall off, and we will need to wait several days (As he builds up strength) to see any signs of improvement.

One step at a time. First feeding, and getting the tank correct.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Get a SeaChem Ammonia Alert. I use them on all of my tanks. Without going into a bunch of detail:

The API test reads Total Ammonia; i.e. both toxic NH3 (Free) and non-toxic NH4 (Ammonium). Some conditioners neutralize NH3 and render it the harmless NH4. As API reads them both you might be seeing Ammonium and not Free Ammonia.

The SeaChem Ammonia Alert, on the other hand, only reads Free Ammonia. So if it doesn't register you know you have Ammonium and there's no danger to your boy.

When you start to see clear growth on his fins they are starting to regenerate.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Another update...

Apologies for hogging the site. So, Sammy seems to be much, much more active and eating a lot. He swims around more, though I feel his swimming is some what erratic and less fluid. We finally received the proper test kit (better than the strips). It also looks to me like his fins are in a way worse: shorter, maybe some more holes or thin bits. Though also the very frayed "strings" at the ends of his fins have mostly disappear, presumably fallen off. So maybe he is slowly on the mend.

I just can't tell if there is still active infection, or if it's just the wound healing stage.

I do think he looks a little less thin, but here still long way to go. We are feeding frozen bloodworms every morning (5-7 pieces), and then Nutrafin Bug Bites in the evening. (Nutrafin was the only high end brand in the local store; I am going to order some Omega One pellets).

In the meanwhile, we are continuing 10-25% water change every three days. This is the last change today with low dose salt. After that, no more. 

With the new text kit: Ammonia and Nitrites are 0, and the Nitrates look like somewhere between 0 and 20, so maybe just maybe we are growing the colony.

However, the pH on the better test kit came out 8.5. We were shocked. My wife tested the water out of the tap: 8.2. So now we need to look at controlling the pH in the system.

I will try to upload an updated picture today or tomorrow, if I can get a good one with his fins exposed, and with his coloration more visible.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Both samples should be the same "age." That makes a huge difference.

In a nutshell, do not mess with the pH. Fish can get used to high or low pH but not fluctuating. Those pH up/down additives can do more harm than good. If you want to lower it do it slowly by using shells or coral. But add just a small amount so pH doesn't drop too fast.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

OK, understood about pH. 

As promised, here are several updated photos, from today--a little more than one week from the last set. Again, to my eye his fins look to be in worse shape: more holes, shorter, weird colouring. But maybe this is because he is more active and moving around more and spreading his fins a bit more widely, which lets me inspect the damage more closely. Certainly I do not see any signs of regrowth. What I cannot tell is if the infection is still active, or if he is healing (ie, the infection is going away and maybe dead bits are sloughing off). I cannot tell i the darker part along the bottom of his anal fin is rot (black) or simply colouring. I suspect rot. 

I think he looks a little better nourished, though obviously it will take a long time for the new feeding regimen to really have effect. I just feel like I am fighting a losing battle with his fins.

At least the water quality is apparently taken care of, and we have a proper test kit finally in order to monitor.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

IMO, his fins look so much better. Just eight days ago he was nearly at death's door. I am impressed with what you've managed to do in such a short space of time.

Left is before; right is today. Notice they are much cleaner and not as ragged and not "melting:. It can take a while for fins to regenerate as it depends on overall health.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

well this is reassuring! It’s been about ten days now using small doses of aquarium salt, so time to desalinate. Is there a preferred method? My plan is simply to continue 20/25% every few days as we have been doing, only not adding salt. I'm trying not to stress him, and hopefully get back to a more regular schedule once the tank is finally cycled. however, that at that rate it will take a long time to remove all of the salt (Zeno's betta tank paradox, I suppose!). Should we instead do bigger water changes to bring down the salt more quickly?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I can't remember how much salt you are using? As AS won't hurt Betta, you can continue with the current water change schedule/percentage.

Do you not think his fins look better? They are not "melted" together as they were in the first photos. And his color is so much brighter. Sammy's not completely out of the woods; but he's nearing the edge of the forest.  

If you want to send me weekly photos I can keep doing comparisons for you. I have PhotoScape. It's a free program although I "donate" every year.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Following Rana's suggestion, we put in .5 teaspoons AS per gallon. With each change, we have replaced the prorated amount, ie if we replace one gallon we add .5 teaspoons back in. 

it is hard for me to tell if his fins are improving. They do look brighter and perhaps less ragged. But then sometimes I think I see more damage than before. It’s difficult to tell since he was not spreading his fins much. It’s also hard to tell if I'm seeing a hole in the fin or where overlapping fin rays look like a hole. I don’t think I see new growth but then I’m an amateur. Sometimes he looks brighter, sometimes I think it’s just how I happen to catch the light when taking the picture.

He is certainly more active, though he still spends a fair time resting. This is probably normal, but it’s been so long that he’s been in bad shape that I don’t have a behaviour baseline. he doesn’t flare or build bubble nests, but he never did much even when we first got him. He swims a lot more. Sometimes his swimming seems a bit jerky and not as easy or fluid, presumably as he is compensating for the loss of fins.

i am trying to monitor his weight now that we are feeding him more. Again his body Shape seems a bit fuller but he still looks much thinner than photos of other bettas that I see. Not sure how long it will take to fully compensate for his under feeding.

I will definitely post updated photos every week or so!


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

i think we have the water under control. I’d like to see the nitrates appear more clearly in tests, but ammonia and nitrites are virtually 0 with each water change, so we’re not poisoning him!

i figure going forward, we will settle on two smaller (20/25%) changes per week, with a good vacuuming once a week. Unless we have a good colony development, in which case maybe once a week will be fine.

From everything that I have read, a small tank like ours (5g) should have 50% water changed per week.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I did one 25% with vacuum as regular maintenance with a healthy fish. With an ailing one, two 25% per week.

You can back off the salt by not replacing when you do water changes. 

Progress toward total healing often takes quit a while and one that's been ill will take longer to regenerate fins. However, often when fully regenerated the fins will not look the same.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Updated photos as promised. I know the quality is poor--it's virtually impossible to get a good focus through the tank. In my view, his anal fin seems still to me losing bits, esp. at the bottom, and it looks melty. However the color is overall better (though tough to tell depending on the light). I think I can see one or two new holes in the fins. His ventral fins are in terrible shape. One is visibly shorter than the other, though when he opens them (which is rare) it is "fuller." The longer one is pretty stringy. The ends of the ventrals look like they have "balls" on them. The caudal and dorsal fins look a bout the same, or better.

He should;d be looking a bit fat in these photos as he just ate a big meal. We are still keeping him on a big diet of frozen bloodworms for one meal and nutrafin bug bites for the second meal. Water change and vacuum every three days. 

I will try to get some better pics later today.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

While he's not out of the woods, that he's eating and not as lethargic is a good sign.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

OK, some better photos this morning (July 25), better focus and clearer views of the anal fin. Since I am a newbie (and obviously not skilled at caring for betts), I cannot tell if the darker fringes on the fins are active fin rot, dead tissue that is falling off, or natural colouring. In short, while he's much better in terms of diet an behaviours, I cannot tell if we are making real progress with his fins. At what point--if ever--do we try antibiotics?

Everyone has been so helpful here. No expectation of an immediate response, just wanted to post these for reference. Will post again in a few few days when we do the next water change and, hopefully, we are making more progress toward getting the tank cycled.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

You can start using antibiotics at any time. Most recommend SeaChem Kanaplex. @Veloran knows more about antibiotic use than do I.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Apparently here in Canada one cannot get fish antibiotics without a prescription. The Seachem product is not available as a result. We are now searching for a vet to issue a prescription but the chances are not good. I am amazed.

i suppose in the meanwhile, after a break, we'll try a heavier dose of AS.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Now poor Sammy has developed a number of white/rough sores along his back. HIs anal fins look so fragile, but maybe it's my imagination. He keeps what's left of his pectoral fins clamped all the time. I just don't know what to do any more. We are trying to obtain antibiotics, but that is very hard in Canada. 

I'm beginning to think that all I can do is watch him waste away.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

From June 28


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

And from today, June 30


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

The rot continues unabated: anal tail basically dissolving. I will post some more pictures later in the week. 

What should we do??

We have ordered antibiotics (not available here in Canada), but they will not arrive for weeks, if they even come.

We have used aquarium salt already, but we should wait at least another few days before trying again--and I do think that the AS stressed him.

We change the water twice a week now, ends up being about 40%.

Should we try to remove him into another container and do a 100% water change, and totally clean everything in the main aquarium?

What else can we do to try to slow the bacteria and/or fungus that is eating through his fins?


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I'm afraid there is nothing more you can do except keep him comfortable and fed. Keep in mind that, just like people, fish can appear to be healing and then worsen.BTW, did you add either the plain Rooibos Tea or Indian Almond Leaves?

The thing about malnutrition is it gradually begins to take a toll on a fish's entire system; including its ability to heal. Sammy was pretty far gone when you started. And, as Rana advised, the most important thing was to get food to him so he had a chance to fight whatever was going on with his fins. One reason we didn't suggest antibiotics is Canada's ban on importing antibiotics for pets. This law made the road to recovery that much harder and less certain.

You gave it your best shot but sometimes that's not enough.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Tried to get the leaves but the pet store seemed confused, so no. There I suppose we should have looked more And harder for that. Suggestions where these are found?

in the meanwhile the illicit medication is in theory being shipped, though I have my doubts.

my wife is trying one last shot at the fish pet store way across town tonight. They claim to have some therapeutics. We'll see.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Rooibos Tea can be found in the US at most grocery or health food stores. It is an herbal, naturally decaffeinated tea.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

OK acquired catnap (indian almond) leaves. Will use tomorrow after preparing tonight., We were also able to buy Pimafix at the aquarium store.

Now, is this one of those products that we should not use because it affects the labyrinth organ? Or is this one OK? Or should we shoot the moon because otherwise I am waiting 2-3 weeks for the Seachem products to arrive.

I realize that we are in desperation mode now.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

It's another Internet myth about the "fix" meds and labyrinth fish. The oil has been refined to be water soluble. Also, Betta are facultative breathers; they depend on their gills and the labyrinth is secondary. So Pimafix is fine.

You can go ahead and float a leaf in the tank while you prepare the tea. I recommend using both a leaf and the tea. The tea is instantaneous.

I am really sorry this is happening.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

I'm sorry too, but mostly guilty--we are to blame for treating the little guy so poorly for so long and not being better informed sooner. It's probably too late for him, but I am bound and determined to do what I can over the next days and weeks to save him. I'm really holding out for the Kanaplex to show up. These days with COVID-19 delays...and with the Canadian ban...who knows.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Please do not beat yourselves up over this. As you know, we seldom learn from what we do right. If I had a nickel for each my aquatic "learning" mistakes I'd be a rich woman. I had to learn to forgive myself a long time ago.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Ok, so will Pimafix today. According to directions, we should remove the carbon filters “if possible”, dose, wait 7 days, and do a 25% water change. Is this possible with a five gallon tank? I’m worried that with a small tank like this we can’t go seven days before the ammonia etc will spike, esp given how much he is eating. the tank parameters have been good but nitrates are not really showing an increase, so I suspect we have not been able to establish the tank since the first big clean a few weeks back.

anyway, at least we floated a leaf and today we'll dip a water change and introduce the tea. And the Pimafix.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Actually, did some more research--yes, of course, I take out the carbon filter!


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Update with lots of photos. 

We have been using Pimafix for one week. Indian Almond tea (about 50%) for one week. No water change, removed filter. The water chemistry today after one week is weirdly good:

Ammonia: about 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0

I suppose there was enough "good bacteria" in the water to stabilize the conditions for one week. 

Behavior and condition:
Sammy is seemingly very happy. He is more active, swimming around, flaring some more though still no bubble nests. His color looks better to me overall. HIs fins _seem_ to look better depending on teh light, BUT...

He still seems to be losing fins, at times almost daily. And depending on the light there does appear to be a darker fringe along the fins. 

Maybe it's simply the case that this is a severe infection that may take weeks and weeks to combat.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Before photos: a question or two.

1. Pimafix bottle says that after one week, do a 25% water change, and that we may continue treatment. Should we continue with the Pimafix for another week, or give him a "break" and return the filter.

2. Same with the tea. Should we cycle out (say) 40-50% of the water (this is the usual minimum we can get out and still clean the gravel adequately) and then add more tea. Or go back to "clean:" water for a bit?

3. How long should we go without the carbon filter? My guess is that the good bacteria have basically all died, since we have no nitrates, though they died fighting the bad stuff! Perhaps re-introducing the carbon filters (which I kept in a bucket with old tank water) will restore the colony some?

4. Basically, what is the recommended next step? (Still waiting for the antibiotics to arrive...supoosedly in about 2 weeks).

Now photos, with dates.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Photos with dates, between June 27 and today, July 11.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Continued...


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

Lastly, if I leave out the carbon filter for the time being, do I still add cycle? Or just do a water change? For now I will change the water 40% (the usual), rinse the fake plants, clean the algae from the glass and vacuum a bit. But leave out the filter for now and no cycle added, until some advice. In another day I can either resume pimafix treatment or start to rotate back to the regular routine.


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

One more view from today, with closeup, just taken as I was observing him before doing a water change. Is this fungus? Bacterial? Both? Something else altogether?


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## voxborealis (Jun 11, 2020)

On the mend???

After two weeks of Pimafix, we returned to the regular system. No medication, 25% water change weekly. Water parameters are good, though it looks like the medication and removal of older filters has wiped out the nitrate levels. 

Overall: Sammy is even more active,. he has been flaring much more frequently. Lots of activity. Looks like considerable fin regrowth now that all of the damaged tissue has sloughed off. For the first time in weeks I am fairly confident of recovery. So much so that we received the (illicit) Kanaplex in the mail but decided there is no need to use it.

If he is still going strong in another week or two, we may finally get him a tank mate, a snail.

Some of the photos are blurry, but the new growth should be clear!


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