# Female Almost Killed Male Before Spawning?



## Duncan13 (Nov 7, 2010)

I've been conditioning my pair for quite some time now and introduced them into the tank about 2 nights ago. The male built a very large nest like normal, and everything was going along smoothly. I released them together around a day ago, so they've been in the tank for roughly 24 hours. The male was initially very agressive towards the female, and she had a few nipped fins before I went to bed at night. I did notice however, that she was a lot faster than him (the male's fins would slow him down), and he was not able to catch her most of the times he chased after her. This morning, I woke up, expecting something good...and I saw the worst thing imaginable. The bubblenest had shrunken about half its size, and the male had his fins almost completely ruined. I've never seen such heavy damage like this done before to either male or female, ever. I'm devastated because the male's fins are so badly torn, I don't think it is possible that he will ever be able to regrow the lost portions completely. Since then, I've separated them & put male in a hospital tank w/ medication. I'm assuming somehow, that the female was not ready for breeding, since I noticed her trying to ruin the bubblenest earlier on, but I don't understand how she could get THIS aggressive. Even after the male's fins were torn, I still saw him flaring and chasing after the female, and this also adds on to my confusion. Does somebody have an explanation for this? All help is well appreciated.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Wow! She beat the daylights out of him. I'm going to let those who have experience answer your question but I would guess that one or both just weren't ready.


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

I had a female kill one of males!
Everything was fine for a few days,came home after work and he was floating by the nest!!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

One of the reasons why conditioning is important is because males use up a lot of his energy during breeding. Flaring alone uses up energy, add bubble nest making and later rearing eggs and fry - during which time he usually fast or eat sparingly. This is also a reason why older males aren't usually used for breeding - not because they won't breed but more of fatigue considerations. 

TBH I have never experienced this and am only guessing probable possibilities. He was initially active and aggressive? The only reason I can think of is that he became less aggressive, concentrating on his nest. Mean while the female is almost ready to spawn, with more energy. She will attack reluctant males if they don't attack her. She might also be what I call a vicious female that will attack any less aggressive betta.

Now that you know their character, for future breeding use smaller and shallow containers. The male must beat the female . . . this female anyway. Don't use hideouts or anything else - just plain bare tank/tub. 
Use the jar/chimney method of introduction. Leave the female in a jar for 1-2 days before releasing her. This is not for the female's sake but more for the male - making sure that he is ready. Or you could also use another female to give him a head start. After a day or two, float the female to be bred.

Myates has had similar experiences. Ask her for more detailed explanations. 

Sorry about you male. He should eventually heal in time. Just keep up with water changes.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yikes.. yeah poor boy got beat up. 

Oh I've had my share of nasties.. sorry for what is going to be a long post 

Pictures at the bottom of the post are of this red boy.. The first picture shows a beautiful fish as you can see. Lovely. Had been bred by a couple of my breeder friends before he came to me for my chance at starting an orange line.. was planning on breeding him to a yellow girl and then onto cambodians, etc. So was excited to get him, he had been a great breeder and reared many fry.

The second picture is him after two attempts with two of my girls. The first girl I set him up with was my terror of a yellow girl.. no matter what male she was with, she would immediately upon release chase him down and literally swallow his anal fin from tip to body.. just gobbled it allllll up in one bite. Then would clamp onto said fin while the poor male would swim all around trying to get her loose. She would not release him at all. I would physically remove her off of the male (the male's anal fin would pull out of the female's mouth/stomach as she was removed.. it would always end up folded like an accordion. And the second I release her grip on him, and she is removed.. she would zip right back and latch right back onto the male before I could even attempt to snatch her up with a net or trap her in the chimney. Just beelined right for the males over and over. Sooo the poor red boy had a couple meet ups with her with the same results. I could never find a male aggressive enough to handle her. Ever.. 

The second female was a clean cambodian/cellophane girl... her first time... she had no interest in him. Stayed with him for a week and nothing between the two. He danced, he swayed, but she wouldn't give him the time of day. So one night I was giving them one last night together.. but for some reason I wasn't thinking and I turned out their light. That is when I found out that this female HATES being in the dark with a male.. HATES it. Woke up the next morning to find what you see in the second picture. She would not move from her corner at all with the lights on. Lights off she goes into terror mode. I recreated the situation that day, with my supervision and saw that as soon as I turned out the lights and it got dark, she hunted him down like a shark after a seal.. he had no chance. So, removed her and she then immediately dropped eggs in her home tank within 2 minutes (literally) of being returned to her home. 

I've had one male kill a female, I've had one female (who I still won't touch) kill another male by damaging one eye so bad he had to be put down.. and all variations of damage done.. and also have had some with no damage. My boy from a line I'm working on, he's an F1 generation.. he has bred 3 times in the last couple months and he has yet to have any damage done to him - no nips or anything from the girls.. but he does a decent job at nipping the girls sometimes. 

So you are going to get a lot of variations in their personality and how aggressive they are. You will need to figure out what works best for each one - which I'll go into in the next post


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Now, I've tried and tried using the "conventional" method such as the 10g filled with 3-4" of water, hiding spots, etc etc etc.. either my fish just hated me, or I just have the worse luck with it as eventually they all seemed to of become best friends and I couldn't get them to stay focused on one another. So now I don't even attempt to breed that way. 

Here is how I set my spawns up - I will usually get great results this way - I believe my track record is 90% success when using this method.

For 3-5 days prior to wanting to breed I separate the pair from all other fish by placing a card between their containers so they can't see any other fish for that period. I don't even allow them to have that 5 minute access to one another each day. I just fill them with food and leave them be. Now, I can't do that to all my fish, as one male I have bred a few times will get overly aggressive if I force him into seclusion, so with him I only allow him to see other males during that time, no females. I feed them a mix of pellets (Atison's, Omega One Betta Buffet, New Life Spectrum and Golden Pearls), and the day prior and the day of introduction I stuff them with lots of frozen blood worms.. sometimes I'll feed them the whole time I'm conditioning.. just depends on whether or not I want a large spawn. 

Now for the tank I use the standard 10g.. in a corner I put in the sponge filter and turn it on real low (or leave it out, all depends on my mood that day and which set up I'm using). In the back I put in the heater (I prefer to stick it to the back side of the tank rather than the bottom as it can be a bit of a pain trying to siphon under the heater when you have tiny fry to look out for). 

Then I get a small sterilite/rubbermaid container about the size of a medium shoe box.. I poke holes in the sides towards the bottom (I use those metal meat thermometers as they are a good size - enough for water to go in/out, but not big enough for any of the fish to try to swim through during breeding.. I poke from inside out to avoid sharp points harming the fish when they swim around chasing).. multiple holes on each side about 1-2" from the bottom. That helps allow water inside the container to be the same parameters with the water on the outside of the container. The container will also keep any current from the sponge filter from affecting the water inside the container. 

I fill the tank/container up just to the point right before the container floats.. I leave a couple inches from the top of the container so the female can't jump out. 

I'll put live plants in the tank, maybe a couple in the spawning tub (normally will only put frogbit in there if I place plants in there, as they won't get in the way much and could be used as a nest anchor). I'll break an IAL leaf into the main tank itself, and break a large one (8-12") in half.. I'll cut a small piece of bubble wrap (if that particular male needs it) and place it in the bin, and then place one of the halves of the IAL leaf on top of the bubble wrap (gives them a sense of security for the eggs, and the bubble wrap will prevent leaf from sinking). And I will usually place the other half in the container as well for added comfort/nest options. 

I will place the male in the container and then it depends on the pair whether or not I just toss the female in or place her in a chimney in the container - some pairs I don't separate them, just place them both in at the same time and they figure it out, or of one/both are skittish I'll leave in a chimney for a maximum of 3 hours.

Release and wait.. I have roughly a 90% success rate this way (was higher until my black male started becoming a pain.. just traded him in for 4 new males, a female and some IAL leaves lol). The longest it took for me to get a spawn with this method is 3 days and that is regardless whether or not one or both are virgins.. had a few who were both virgins breed within a day - one of them bred within hours. Have had spawns number from 32 to 550+ fry. 

This works for me.. I got this idea off of a friend of mine who breeds in small bowls with GREAT success. I'm not that brave, so I tweaked her method and made it work for me. 

Oh, and after spawning, remove female placed in either AQ salted water or meth blue water depending upon wounds and fed immediately. Male I will keep in for as long as I see fit for each male. But normally just pull the male out once fry are free swimming.. once the fry are free swimming and ready to eat you can either leave them in the container to make feeding/cleaning easier, but I just ever so gently pour them out into the tank. Haven't had any deaths from doing so yet *knock on wood*.. this way I can view them easier and make sure they are able to eat the food I provide them, etc.

Here are a couple of ways I set the spawns up (and yes, that 3rd picture the female is hiding from the male on top of the frogbit.. This was taken about 2 weeks ago.. she has since bred twice, not shy any more!) -


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Sorry for so many posts.. there is a post size limit and trying not to reach it 

With your situation, I would look into what could be done a bit differently..

Did you have the lights on all night, or at least a nightlight or room light on all night to allow them to be able to see one another good? If you turned out all the lights then that may of been the problem with the girl.. she may need to have some sort of light on to see the male. I usually turn the lights out on the tank at night, but keep the room light on all night to allow there to be enough light for her to see him.

When you released her, what was her signals? Was she flaring at him while she was separated, was she sideways to him and smacking her tail towards him? When you released her, did she flare back at him or posture with him any?

Some girls are very aggressive just like the boys and will be hard to breed them.. I say if you have another you could breed to him, try her and see. Being your first time, I rather you not have a death of a good breeder on your hands just yet.. if you don't then I would recondition them and try again. But in her case, don't separate her view from the male (keep their containers side by side) - as she is that aggressive, just fatten her up but allow her to see the male (and only him) at all times during the conditioning. This way she will be "used" to him a bit more and hope that with the food being stuffed into her, she'll get eggy and want to breed with him.. I would condition for 3-5 days.


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## Duncan13 (Nov 7, 2010)

Once again, thank you soo much for the detailed response & visuals, it must have taken forever to type! I really do think that having the lights completely off may have contributed to what happened to my male, as when the lights were on, everything was normal and she would hide from him. To answer your other question, she didn't seem overly aggressive when separated. She would sort of flare and then remain interested (following him around as he circled her in the mini tub thing that she was in.) I'll keep all your suggestions in mind for my next attempt, but I think that I may want to try a different female. My only concern is that with the male's fins ripped so terribly, will any female still see him as a "desirable" spawning partner? Also, I do think that I'll lower the water levels a bit. Right now, I'm just letting both heal and fattening them up with a variety of foods...it should be good both ways even if I don't decide to use them again. Again, thanks for all the help and I'll keep you posted.


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## Darth (Nov 19, 2012)

I have had many of those killer girls, the last one was the worst..BUT..I picked out a nice male for her!! She is a red beautiful female and she shredded 2 males and she was about to pop with eggs soooo...I got a big big Yellow male very aggressive and he whipped her into shape, I will spawn red to yellow if I do not have compatable male and females because I can get both from this union.
I got lucky, most all of the shreder girls stay that way and I will not risk another good male with them.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

He should still be able to get the female interested in him with shredded fins.. it's about how ready she is to mate, and his whole attitude. I wish you luck!


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