# A Giant Betta Journal



## logisticsguy

A few months ago I decided I really wanted a Giant betta and after spending too much time on aquabid ordered a breeding pair from Thailand. Moose (renamed twice) and his sibling sister arrived healthy. After a failed breeding attempt the female died suddenly. It was very sad because she was a beauty. Moose is a super energetic giant who got moved into his own 33g tank. He is about 6 months old an entering his prime breeding time so though we would give it another try and ordered 3 Giant females from another thai breeder. Today they arrived after the long trip. To my horror the 1st girl was long dead. The second girl was in rough shape, gasping for air and faded. Girl 3 was in very good condition and had no problems. Still kinda hurt to see the one female who died. imo the bags were very low on water for a fish this size but not going to complain shipping is always risky. Down the road I plan to breed the Giants but not until they are very conditioned and in top shape. I would like to use this journal to talk about Giants, specifically about their care, genetics and breeding challenges.

So this is what they looked like this afternoon any opinion on water level? Am I off base thinking very low?

The dead female









The nearly dead girl









The healthy girl


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## logisticsguy

Tonight girl 2 was looking much better, less gasping and even ate a little so I think she should make it. They are each in a 10g with heater and seasoned sponge filters.

Here are some pics from tonight. Oh I need help with names.

Girl 1




























Girl 2 Looking better now




























Here is Moose who had a panic attack when he saw the new girls.


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## Stone

Very pretty girls you have there, if I was to breed my king elvis I would like a girl like #2 I think they would produce some very pretty babies, I agree the water in their bags looked much too low, they need more than that to move around in and besides that they produce far more ammonia than a standard sized betta, I currrently have 2 giant males elvis the halfmoon and harley he is more of a wild type looking one, elvis is big i would say about 4 inches from the tip of his nose to the start of his tailfin, harley is much smaller than elvis but I will say out of all my bettas they seem to be the healthiest


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## MattsBettas

The look amazing! I'm sad the one girl is dead though... That doesn't look like nearly enough water. Did you test the water from the surviving girls bags to check if ammonia was at a dangerous level? I sure hope yo are getting a refund too. I'm super excited for you to breed them and will be watching this journal carefully! 

Also, kings and giants are two different things, remember.


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## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> Very pretty girls you have there, if I was to breed my king elvis I would like a girl like #2 I think they would produce some very pretty babies, I agree the water in their bags looked much too low, they need more than that to move around in and besides that they produce far more ammonia than a standard sized betta, I currrently have 2 giant males elvis the halfmoon and harley he is more of a wild type looking one, elvis is big i would say about 4 inches from the tip of his nose to the start of his tailfin, harley is much smaller than elvis but I will say out of all my bettas they seem to be the healthiest


Thanks Stone. Giants are far more active than I thought they would be before I had any. They do have an enormous appetite but ive learned its very important to not overfeed them. What do you feed yours? Mine eats nls betta, bloodworms, nls Thera A dipped in Garlic guard 2x per week, beefheart 1x per week. Moose hated pellets at first but has gotten more used to them over time. Pellets were definitely not on the menu for him back in Thailand.


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## BettaLover1313

Wow! Beautiful giants! Very sorry to hear about the one girl dying though.


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## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> The look amazing! I'm sad the one girl is dead though... That doesn't look like nearly enough water. Did you test the water from the surviving girls bags to check if ammonia was at a dangerous level? I sure hope yo are getting a refund too. I'm super excited for you to breed them and will be watching this journal carefully!
> 
> Also, kings and giants are two different things, remember.


The seller is sending a very nice replacement next shipment and has been great to deal with. The ammonia was super high in the bags nearly off the chart. Girl 2 was poisoned for sure but is making a nice recovery. The new girls are 3 inches which is pretty good size for young females. Glad it wasn't just me thinking the water was too low in the bags, it was less than the average sized betta had when Ive imported before.


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## Skyewillow

CJ, when Lazarus came in, Linda had rebagged him and gave him an almond leaf, his water level was almost twice of girl 1's!  It actually makes me pretty sad that she didn't make it to you, she looks like she was a beauty.

Could you and Stone please tell Lazarus that giants are supposed to be more active, and not sit under their feeding ring, looking pathetic all day? lol He's really low key, and always hungry.

I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread though. I would love to see your replacement lady when she comes.

As for names, "Delilah" came to mind as soon as I saw girl 2. lol


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## 10asartin

I love the name Cruella Deville for girl 1. 101 Dalmatians!


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## logisticsguy

Skyewillow said:


> CJ, when Lazarus came in, Linda had rebagged him and gave him an almond leaf, his water level was almost twice of girl 1's!  It actually makes me pretty sad that she didn't make it to you, she looks like she was a beauty.
> 
> Could you and Stone please tell Lazarus that giants are supposed to be more active, and not sit under their feeding ring, looking pathetic all day? lol He's really low key, and always hungry.
> 
> I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread though. I would love to see your replacement lady when she comes.
> 
> As for names, "Delilah" came to mind as soon as I saw girl 2. lol


Linda is a 1st rate transhipper. Putting an almond leaf in shows she really cares. Hung is good usually but must put more water in for giants than this shipment imo. The giants can weigh 4x as much and you pay extra for shipping them so why skimp on the water?

Lazarus sounds like a chill dude who just stalks his ring lol, the appetite on giants is incredible to me. Feeding them the right amount is key. You want to lessen the hunger and help them grow but it can be touchy cuz over feeding giants can cause real problems. Im still working on getting the feed schedule just right. Hmm I like Delilah for a name. Can you post a pic of Lazarus here? I saw a pic of the replacement girl and excited to get her. I will post as soon as she arrives.


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## logisticsguy

10asartin said:


> I love the name Cruella Deville for girl 1. 101 Dalmatians!


Cruella and Delilah I can work with that! My son wanted to call her Spot, like a dog..so no way kid.


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## Skyewillow

Lazarus in comparison with my Kyocera Hydro cell phone. It doesn't show his full size, because he kept turning towards it to figure out what the heck it was lol


I'm feeding this monster probably 4 times a day, different things throughout the day, like rehydrated mysis or krill, in addition to the NLS pellets.


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## Stone

Lol elvis is very active and very smart, he seems to know his name, I can be sitting across the room look over at his tank and not see him, he will be in the back hiding in his plants or under his turtle basking platform, and I can call out "elvis" and he will come to the front of the tank and look right at me. He is a very fun fish I keep changing room mates on him I have had shrimp and baby fish in with him and he doesn't mind them at all, right now he has a mickey mouse platy adult female in with him and a mixed platy boy, he will chase them around a bit here and there, the girl platy doesn't mind she does her mating display to him all the time.As far as feeding him I feed him NLS pellets 2x daily about 12 or so at a time plus I am sure he gets some of the flakes for the platys and then once or twice a week frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp. here is elvis being himself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsYRVN04dY


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## Skyewillow

Elvis should come give Lazzy some pointers. He has a very baby attitude AND attention span... and he pouts... a lot


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## logisticsguy

Lazarus is so unique looking I havnt seen a giant like him before. Moose is oblivious to other fish in his tank unless its a female betta and seems very smart and into whatever is going on outside the tank. The Panda corys love him cuz he is such a messy eater. 

Stone and Skye thanks for posting what your feeding your feeding them its good to compare notes on these guys because info is much more limited on their care. Moose had a growth spurt after moving into the 33g but seems to have slowed down lately. Both new females ate well tonight and looking better with no signs of stress or ammonia issues yay.


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## Skyewillow

Lazarus attacks everything that goes into his tank. He took out a large trapdoor in just a few days.

And I wish I could catch the way his scales shimmer green, he's a very pretty boy.


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## logisticsguy

Update. The giant girls are doing well. They are slowly adjusting to pellets which the green girl is not crazy about at all much like Moose was when he arrived. Tonight was bloodworm night and after some hesitation both ate about 6 of them. This girl is blue near the top and green when further away so I understand what you mean Skyewillow.

The jolly green giant.


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## dramaqueen

He's huge! Lol and very pretty.


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## logisticsguy

So today was terrible. I found my giant who was in perfect health last night in awful shape today. He is bloated, grey belly, super lethargic and slowly sinks on his side at the bottom. We have started Epson salt and kanaplex and he is in a 10g hospital tank with ial. Ive had other males die like this the last few weeks and trying to get to the root cause, any advise appreciated. Im just sick about this! The 1st pick is this afternoon laying on his side at bottom.










This is tonight at least he is no worse.

















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To kill time and try to feel better while keeping an eye on Moose I reworked the sorority tank and added a bamboo in a vase to the tank.


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## dramaqueen

I'm sorry about Moose. I hope you're able to figure out what's causing your fish to die.


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## logisticsguy

Thanks DQ. With the good advise from the helpful members Im getting a better idea of what Im dealing with here. The Moose is hanging in there the fella is one tough fish. He is not pine coned and his belly seems smaller tonight but I didn't see a poop yet. We have him on Epson salts at 2 tsp combined with a dose of Kanaplex. He looks the same as last night which is good I guess. Poor guy is still super pale and grey streaks on his body but I still have some hope for him. The pic is from earlier today I thought I lost him but he is still going up for air and tonight is at least not on his side.


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## MattsBettas

Hoping he pulls through~


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## logisticsguy

Thanks Matt. Oh boy was I happy to see Moose Man today! He isn't sinking, has some color back and is much more normal. Im totally shocked he looks this good. Changed water and started rd 2 of Kanaplex.


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## Elsewhere

Wow, what an improvement from before! Hoping he stays this healthy and keeps getting better!


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## MattsBettas

Awesome! That made me smile. He actually looks pretty good. Great job!


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## Huffle Puffles

Glad to see your fishy is doing better, hope his health keeps up! He's quite the handsome fella.


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## BettaLover1313

Very relieved to see that Moose is looking better!


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## logisticsguy

Thanks all  He is not out of the woods yet but Im thrilled to see him improve!!!

He isn't really interested in food but I hope maybe by tonight he will eat.


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## MattsBettas

Hey CJ, I got a nice photo of Moose when I was there that shows his size relative to the thermometer, can I post it? (If I can figure out how. Lol.)


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## logisticsguy

Please post it Matt. Its hard to show the betta size in pictures.


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## MattsBettas

Not a great photo, but it shows his size... That thermometer isn't small(CJ, you should measure it!).


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## logisticsguy

Today Moose looks worse. Not as bad as 2 days ago but he is not well. The grey streak on his body and belly have turned black. Anyone know what that's about? I will try to post a pic soon.


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## MattsBettas

Aww shoot. I was hoping he would stay healthy... Hopefully he won't get any worse. I honestly have no idea why his belly would turn black, but pictures will help. Have you talked to LittleBlueFishlets and Sakura8 yet?


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## logisticsguy

Notice the black streak on his back and belly. That was greyish before and now has gone dark. I really have no clue what is going on. I have pm Sakura to get expert opinion on this.


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## logisticsguy




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## sunlight

Did you see his poo? Is it normal color ? Just want to make sure it not internal parasites?
I hope he will recover, he is gorgeous


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## LittleBlueFishlets

I'm glad you PM'd Sakura. Hopefully, she'll know what's going on.... 

Some questions which occurred to me as I read through the thread:

1) Did Moose (or his equipment) have any contact with the new girls? He looked great the other day, and this had a very sudden onset. Is it possible that he was somehow exposed to a disease from them? If they were exposed to it early on in life, their immune systems may have developed antibodies to it. But if Moose hadn't been exposed previously, it may be something that could affect him.

2) You said you've had other males with similar symptoms die in the last few weeks.... Is it just males? Were they all Giants? And is there any chance there was cross-contamination via water or equipment from their tanks? Did they die in quick succession? What was the lag time (time intervals) when each developed symptoms? Did they get sick at the same time? Or did each occur several days apart, etc? Can you determine any type of timing pattern?

3) From what I'm reading, it sounds like he was OK until Tues 8/20. Then he suddenly developed a gray belly, lethargy, and lay on his side on the bottom. (In the photo, it also looks like there could be slight bloating.) I don't know anything about Giants or their anatomy, but could they be prone to some kind of food/feeding issues? (I'm not thinking this is the cause really, but I'll ask about it, just in case.) 

4) The Thurs 8/22 photos were WAY better than those from the previous day. So, at that time, the Kanaplex/Epsom salt (2 tsp/gal) definitely seemed to be helping. 

5) You said that today, the gray streaks on his back/belly turned black. Was he lying on that side? If so, could it the pressure from lying down caused bruising? (Marine mammals who are beached will develop dark regions where their bodies are lying on the sand. If they stay beached for long, it starts to cause internal damage, due to their massive weight. A betta probably wouldn't have this sort of damage, but I wonder if there could still be bruising since they don't normally lie on their sides.) 

6) How is his behavior today? In today's photo, it looks like his color is much better than it was the other day - is this the case? 

7) So he's on the 2nd round of Kanaplex right now? And you're still using 2 tsp/gal Epsom salt? When was the last time he pooped? Was it normal-looking?

Mmmpphhfff.... I'm out of questions.... and ideas.... Kanaplex and Epsom salt still sound like the way to go, though. Kanaplex is one of the few antibiotics that can treat both external and internal issues. And the Epsom salt should help, as well. But I'm concerned because if you've had other fish with similar symptoms, then it could be something contagious, and it seems to have a very sudden onset. 

I'll keeping thinking about this. Hopefully, Sakura will have something definitive....


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## logisticsguy

I just want to thank you all for the help diagnosing this problem. I don't think Sakura would mind me posting her advise so here is what she said.

_Oh my goodness, when I saw the first pic I thought he was a goner. But it seems he's bounced back, yay! Because of this, it most likely isn't the graphite disease although I wouldn't rule out a strain of it. Only way to know for sure is lab testing. Another possibility is the beginnings of columnaris.

Because the color came back, it looks like stress was the cause of his color loss and it was not the result of necrotic tissue or tissue being eaten by bacteria and dying. The Kanaplex appears to be having a good effect so I would suggest continuing with it so he's had a total of 6 doses. If he doesn't need the epsom salt, you can stop using that any time to avoid the possibility of dehydration (yeah, I know, sounds weird for a fish in water but it IS a laxative/diuretic, after all). If he'll eat, feed him. He needs all the strength he can get. 

He sure is a very handsome, stunning guy and I'm glad he is fighting whatever he has._


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## logisticsguy

So Im pretty sure the only way to know exactly what this is would be a lab. The grey areas that turned black leads me to believe it is possibly graphite but not sure. Moose is not good today and spending too much time struggling to breath and looks quite awful. I am almost sure he wont make it but what a fighter he is so I wont stop trying. Just did rd 3 of Kanaplex. So far no signs off poop since he moved into the hospital tank. Next post I will try to answer littlebluefishlets questions. This is 2 pics from 20 min ago. 1st on his side then after he struggled to surface to get air. As you can see he is very very sick.


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## MattsBettas

The "graphite disease" (mycobacteria) would probably show on the fins first and move quite a bit faster... That's not to say it couldn't be a different strain though. Keep up kanaplex and Epsom salts. If he isn't swimming around you could put him in a breeding net to make it easier for him to surface.

If he dies, have you considered doing a necropsy to check for any granulomas? 

Still really hoping he makes it.


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## logisticsguy

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> I'm glad you PM'd Sakura. Hopefully, she'll know what's going on....
> 
> Some questions which occurred to me as I read through the thread:
> 
> 1) Did Moose (or his equipment) have any contact with the new girls? He looked great the other day, and this had a very sudden onset. Is it possible that he was somehow exposed to a disease from them? If they were exposed to it early on in life, their immune systems may have developed antibodies to it. But if Moose hadn't been exposed previously, it may be something that could affect him.
> 
> *Moose had no direct contact with the new girls. However I have been negligent by using the same gravel vac on all my tanks and not keeping it or my nets in a salt solution.*
> 
> 2) You said you've had other males with similar symptoms die in the last few weeks.... Is it just males? Were they all Giants? And is there any chance there was cross-contamination via water or equipment from their tanks? Did they die in quick succession? What was the lag time (time intervals) when each developed symptoms? Did they get sick at the same time? Or did each occur several days apart, etc? Can you determine any type of timing pattern?
> 
> *Yes in a span of 4 weeks I had 3 other males die from dropsy like symptoms. Bloat, loss of color, pinecone on 2 of them. It was like 1 death every 7-10 days. these males all died in the same tank. It was power cleaned each time but not sterilized with barbersol or any super Lysol, just scrubbed clean each time. Ive since thrown the 5g tank to the garbage.*
> 
> 3) From what I'm reading, it sounds like he was OK until Tues 8/20. Then he suddenly developed a gray belly, lethargy, and lay on his side on the bottom. (In the photo, it also looks like there could be slight bloating.) I don't know anything about Giants or their anatomy, but could they be prone to some kind of food/feeding issues? (I'm not thinking this is the cause really, but I'll ask about it, just in case.)
> 
> *Yes Giants can be prone to feeding issues. They eat lots but over feeding pellets can be deadly. Ive come to learn they require more variety and growing my own food like white worms would be a good idea.*
> 
> 4) The Thurs 8/22 photos were WAY better than those from the previous day. So, at that time, the Kanaplex/Epsom salt (2 tsp/gal) definitely seemed to be helping.
> 
> *Kanaplex did help for sure but he has kind of regressed back to where he was before.*
> 
> 5) You said that today, the gray streaks on his back/belly turned black. Was he lying on that side? If so, could it the pressure from lying down caused bruising? (Marine mammals who are beached will develop dark regions where their bodies are lying on the sand. If they stay beached for long, it starts to cause internal damage, due to their massive weight. A betta probably wouldn't have this sort of damage, but I wonder if there could still be bruising since they don't normally lie on their sides.)
> 
> *I don't think it was bruising but could be as he is very heavy fish.*
> 
> 6) How is his behavior today? In today's photo, it looks like his color is much better than it was the other day - is this the case?
> 
> *He is back to being very faded and in rotten shape.*
> 
> 7) So he's on the 2nd round of Kanaplex right now? And you're still using 2 tsp/gal Epsom salt? When was the last time he pooped? Was it normal-looking?
> 
> *I cant find a poop but will look closely when I vac his tank later.*
> 
> Mmmpphhfff.... I'm out of questions.... and ideas.... Kanaplex and Epsom salt still sound like the way to go, though. Kanaplex is one of the few antibiotics that can treat both external and internal issues. And the Epsom salt should help, as well. But I'm concerned because if you've had other fish with similar symptoms, then it could be something contagious, and it seems to have a very sudden onset.
> 
> I'll keeping thinking about this. Hopefully, Sakura will have something definitive....


Yeah Im concerned as to how contagious this could be as well. My in house disease prevention must improve as salted nets and sterilized equipment must be a priority. Thanks much to both sakura8 and yourself for taking the time to look at this.


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## logisticsguy

That's a good idea to put him in the breeders net Matt. I plan to do a necropsy if Moose doesnt make it.


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## madyjane

sorry to here about your fish


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## MattsBettas

Would you like me to walk you through the necropsy? I would need to PM (quite graphic and some might not want to see it) you instructions soon because you want to do it ASAP after death... And then, even if he does make it (which I'm really, really hoping he does) you will have the instructions. 

Sakura8 gave me instructions a few months ago but I can streamline them and make them more relevant to bettas and this fish... And I've already done one on a betta so I know what to look for.


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## logisticsguy

That would be very appreciated Matt. You could pm them to me now so I have them to review. I would get hold of you when needed so could go through step by step then. Agree it must be done asap post mortem. Thanks much!


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## MattsBettas

PM sent.


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## MattsBettas

How's Moose?


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## logisticsguy

Thanks for the excellent instructions Matt. Its been a tough day. Moose passed this morning. Took him to wendys house for necropsy, she has done many and is fish enthusiast. So It was hard to do this with a close pet emotionally but I sucked it up. So it was clear an internal parasite had taken hold under the scope it was obvious. Strangely many parasites were dead maybe from kanaplex but damage already done imo. Secondary bact infection took hold when fish defense immunity was weak. Good news not myco (Wendys opinion) for sure no sign of that. So where did parasite come from? Well since this parasite hit my breeding males who were being condition with way more bloodworms than the other fish. here is the kicker. Last month while camping my fish freezer container was left out I didn't even know about it until yesterday my son left it out and she put it back 2-3 days later. arggh. they did look funny to me too but as far as I knew they were fine. They ate rotten food imo. 

This was a major learning experience in fish anatomy for me. I will also make changes in the way I do things as I will be adding a small amount of aq salt all the time with water changes and make regular equipment sterilization. Good news is that no other fish here is sick at all right now. Im sick with a cold and so busy at work just wore out. Going to bed. Roundworms are gross under a microscope yeech!!


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## MattsBettas

Sorry he passed. I am super glad it isn't myco though, that was my biggest fear. Big sigh of relief for both me and you... Now that you know what it is it's really not hard to treat when caught early. I would recommend keeping general cure on hand and treating any fish that begins to show symptoms with it. 

As gross as it is doing the necropsy really does give you a (literal) inside look into how these fish function and what happens when things go wrong. 

By the way I wouldn't add aquarium salt into the water even at a low dose. Yea yea, I know, Sakura8 make a sticky about it, but these are freshwater fish and I don't feel it's natural (one of the best ways to keep animals healthy is to make their enviroment as close to what it would be in nature as possible, and bettas, well, splendens at least, come from 100% freshwater) and IMO experiments need to be done before it can be suggested as a disease prevention method. That and I don't know how it would affect osmoregulation (basically the fluid balance in the fish) when used long term. That's just my opinion though. Anyways, the best thing you can do is prevention.


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## BettaLover1313

I'm very sorry to hear that Moose passed; at least you found out that it wasn't a more serious disease.


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## ANHEL123

Sorry about Moose , hopefully your other bettas are doing good.


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## logisticsguy

Thanks. This has been a tough week and frustrating to say the least. Just happy my other fish show no signs of problems. Now I have to find a mate for my giant girls, Ive become very fond of both of them, such big cute girls and very active, super friendly fish that are so excited to see me. I have a replacement female coming in soon but will need a boy to get rolling on this project. If anyone sees a quality male Giant on aquabid or elsewhere please let me know.


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## Skyewillow

I'm so sorry to hear about Moose's passing.

I'll keep an eye out for a good boy for you, are you looking for HM tails? And any particular color? Let me know exactly what you're looking for, and I'll get right on it.


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## logisticsguy

Hi Skyewillow! Yeah I prefer HM Giant but they seem harder to find than HMPK Giants. No particular color in mind just something that would go well with my girls. If he is larger in size that would be great.

I miss the Moose he was a great fish. If we lived closer I would borrow Laz from you.


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## LittleBettaFish

Sorry to hear about Moose. Internal parasites can be extremely damaging. One of my previous males developed dropsy-like symptoms when he was infected by them. 

At least you know it's not myco and you have some answers as to what went wrong.


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## LittleBlueFishlets

I'm so sorry about Moose. :-(

Since the problem was roundworms:

1) Is this a form of worm that can infect people? If so, you may want to monitor for symptoms in yourself or family members (and pets, too) or discuss this with your family physician (or veterinarian).

2) Would it be worth it to "worm" your other tanks, if there's the possibility that cross-contamination occurred?

IIRC, you tried API General Cure (metronidazole and praziquantel)? If those weren't effective, there are two other antiparasitical meds that you may want to look into: Fenbendazole (Panacur) and Levamisole.

I found this online:
_"For intestinal nematode infections of ornamental fish, several anthelminthics (dewormers) are available. Two effective and commonly used dewormers are fenbendazole and levamisole. Fenbendazole can only be used as a feed additive at the rate of 1.14 grams per pound of food fed for three days, with a repeat treatment in two to three weeks. Levamisole can be used both in the feed and as a bath treatment. One effective oral dose is 1.8 grams of levamisole per pound of food fed once a week for three weeks. One effective bath treatment dose is 2 ppm (mg/liter) levamisole for 24 hours, with a repeat treatment in two to three weeks. However, be sure to consult with a fish health specialist before commencing any treatment and always follow their recommendations."_

Source: Nematode (Roundworm) Infections in Fish

And on Petco's website, I round this:
_"Roundworms, or nematodes, inhabit various organs in fish. Some reside in a fish's stomach or intestines, where they scarf down the food your little swimmer ingests. In this case, your fish may look emaciated. Other roundworms harmlessly hibernate in muscle tissue or swim around in the abdominal cavity. If roundworms are holed up in the abdomen, your fish's belly may look swollen. 

If you suspect most or all of your fish are infected with roundworms, you can treat the tank by mixing the dewormer called fenbendazole into their food. But be sure to stop feeding the fish three days before treatment to make sure they're famished since the medicated food isn't appealing. "_

Source: Intestinal parasites


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## logisticsguy

Great info LittleBlueFishlets! According to my friend these little boogers can infect people. I took some good advise and only worked on Mooses tank with gloves on and washed up like a madman before and after. I saw them under a scope and they are fugly looking. I must say Ive felt rotten the last week so can only hope I don't need to be dewormed myself  My family has almost zero interest in my fish and never go near them, good thing I guess. 

It may be worth it to deworm other tanks. Right now all is well here we have about 100? other betta between 4 months and 1.5 yrs. If there are any sign others are sick I will will use the API general as I just picked some up at the store, never used this before. Maybe I should be proactive and dose anyway? Moose had an unbelievable appetite maybe worms ate it all. It makes sense now that his tummy looked bigger but his width seemed to decrease. Giants are more prone to some intestinal issues to begin with says the breeder and more variety needed than the "little betta" Also recommended I grow 70% of their diet as live food. So even though I had a white worm nightmare I will be ordering them online and get that going again.

We looked for fenbendazole and levamisole at the store tonight but did not find them. This forum is terrific and just want you to know how much I appreciate the people who have taken the time to help out.


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## logisticsguy

The girls are settled in very well now and have monster size appetites and extremely active. Lucky to have friends helping me find and pick a new giant boy or two maybe three  The new ibc standards for Giants just came out so Im reading up to help get a good understanding.


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## MattsBettas

I love the second girl. The first girl is nice to and she looks so much better in real life! Shame cameras can't always get the true colour of fish.


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## Skyewillow

Mike said the first girl would be a perfect match for Lazarus lol


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## LittleBlueFishlets

Fenbendazole is sold under the brand name of *Panacur*. It's a commonly used dewormer for dogs and horses. It's available (in canine/equine version)at places like Tractor Supply. I'm not sure how to dose it for fish, though. Maybe your vet could offer advice?

Levamisole is sold under the name of *Ergamisol*. It is used as a dewormer for sheep and cattle. It looks like it's available in powder form, which can be used for aquariums. Here's an excellent article that tells you where to get it, and how to use it in aquariums. It even provides dosage calculations: Levamisole Hydrochloride.


----------



## MattsBettas

Decide on a male yet?

Edit- Hey, this was my 5000th post. Lol.


----------



## redthebetta

I just want to say that I just bought bettas off of logisticsguy and I would deficiently recommend him to everyone!


----------



## logisticsguy

@matt Not yet im waiting for some photos from Moose's breeder to see what may be available I have a lot of respect for his giant breeding stock. If not its the best of aquabid.

@redthebetta thank you so much and hope you enjoy the sorority.

@littlebluefishlets. Hey I used that on the farm years ago and know where to buy it here at an agriculture store. It amazes me how many fish meds and antibiotics have a different animal or human version.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

How is everyone doing? Is everybody healthy now?


----------



## logisticsguy

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> How is everyone doing? Is everybody healthy now?


Last night I did a detailed health check of all my fish. Thankfully the group is in perfect condition. No sign of infection or parasites anywhere. Im relieved to say the least. now I have to rebuild my male breeding stock. Thanks to skyewillow I now have the updated giant standards yay. 

So it looks like my replacement giant female is on the way from Thailand. I don't even know what she looks like yet so kind of excited to see what the breeder sent. The search for a couple giant boys continues but hope to get more very soon we are just waiting for some pics from thai giant breeders before final decisions are made.


----------



## redthebetta

MattsBettas said:


> Decide on a male yet?
> 
> Edit- Hey, this was my 5000th post. Lol.


Congrats!


----------



## logisticsguy

Im crazy about these giant females. They have endless energy and are hard to photo because they never stop moving. They are so excited to see me and loaded with personality. Ive been taking extra good care of them and looking forward to seeing their sister who is on the next shipment. Still waiting for one breeders pics to decide on a new giant boy or two. These ladies can really eat but Im careful to not overfeed. Pretty sure they have grown a little since arriving. It may be 3-4 weeks before can do the giant spawns but I keep getting the to urge start a spawn in between. Must resist.


----------



## Stone

I'm sorry to hear about moose, I know I would take it pretty hard if I lost Elvis, if you lived closer I would loan Elvis out to breed with your girls anytime, stud fee of a pick the litter though, here is a site that posts vids of their stock of giants every week or so they have some pretty impressive boys and girls, I see you are in canada so I don't know if they can ship to you or not silly borders i looked they don,t thats a shame but still you can look and drool...http://www.mnbettashop.com/giant-bettas


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## Hallyx

What pretty females. Who did you buy them from, LG?


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Hallyx. These girls were imported from breeder rattanapornbetta in Thailand. I see that they have a really white nice giant boy for sale but he is a little pricey. Here is the link to auction, what do you think of this guy?

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1378629604


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## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> I'm sorry to hear about moose, I know I would take it pretty hard if I lost Elvis, if you lived closer I would loan Elvis out to breed with your girls anytime, stud fee of a pick the litter though, here is a site that posts vids of their stock of giants every week or so they have some pretty impressive boys and girls, I see you are in canada so I don't know if they can ship to you or not silly borders i looked they don,t thats a shame but still you can look and drool...http://www.mnbettashop.com/giant-bettas


I sure do wish I lived closer because I would love to borrow Elvis and gladly give you stud fees  Yeah it sucked losing Moose! you know how attached a person can get to these fish. Thanks for the link Im going to go drool over those giants and see if they can ship here.


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## MattsBettas

White looks nice but IMO not a 150$ fish. Stubby ventrals (could be genetics or environmental conditions, no way to tell), rounded anal, the topline gets really wonky near/on the head, and, most importantly, his eyes seem to have this "frosting" over them... Not like the dragon eye we often see on platinum whites, I'm not exactly sure what it is but it may thicken/develop and impair his vision... Or it could just be how he looks lol.


----------



## Skyewillow

Matt, Norbert's dragon eye started off like that, it goes around the outside edge of his iris, then there's a branch that "reaches" over to cover the pupil.

He's a very pretty boy, but given the knowledge that he will most likely go blind, and the risk of passing that to his children wouldn't be worth it to me. While Laz isn't perfect, he's not terrible and only sold for $35.


----------



## logisticsguy

Yikes! thanks Matt and Skyewillow. the price is just too high for me. Moose was a 50 buck fish and that's what im willing to pay, 150 is just over the top. The last thing I need is a blind fish and don't want to pass it along to off spring. Laz was a bargain at 35. Who was Laz breeder? 

I hoping Danai from elegantbetta gets back to me soon he is the breeder Moose came from.


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## Skyewillow

If memory serves, big baby came from Tkbetta.


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## Stone

I got lucky I found elvis at petco and he was on sale so he was 25 dollars if I remember correctly, at the time I did not realize just how nice of a giant he is, I always look at the site that I posted and there are always 2-3 of them I would love to have but I just have too many fish as it is, when the I.R.S. starts letting me claim them as dependents so I can get a tax break I can have more lol next week I am going to make my petco rounds it's about a 70 mile round trip drive I may have another giant, they tend to follow me home, plus they are having the dollar per gallon sale, I already called one and had them order and put aside a 40 gal breeder for me so who know what else I may bring home......peachii really wants some gertrude rainbows......


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## logisticsguy

Stone is right about claiming as dependents! these girls can eat an incredible amount of food and get just crazy if being underfed. This may sound silly but Im feeding 25-30 nls a day and they would eat twice that if I let them. Also bloodworms 2x per week. I may have found a local giant boy to borrow so that's good news. So far the giant females are super healthy so far so good.


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## redthebetta

Good to hear, I can't wait to see the male that you choose!


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## logisticsguy

We just ordered a giant boy from Thailand. So excited I am! This is the new boy who will be on his way here in the next shipment. I think he can be a match for both giant females so he will be a pampered spoiled stud fish.


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## MattsBettas

Awesome. Any idea what girl you're going to breed him to first?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes I think "Cookie" will be the first girl in the spawn tank. My lil nephews have named my giant girls, they really like to name the fish and are way better at it than I am. I have a 10g spawn tank ready to go already (you can tell how excited I am). the other green/blue giant girl is "Lambchop". The new boy is just under 3 inches which isn't too bad for a young giant. A little smaller than Moose at same age but not much.


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## MattsBettas

Cookie's my favorite :-D. I was secretly hoping you would breed her. Giants must need a fairly good sized grow out, right? 

Any plans on diet changes or anything in light of Moose? 

And you and I (and other breeders) should discuss female post-spawn care since its an issue that has killed both of our fish... Not sure if there's much else to do though.


----------



## logisticsguy

Im glad you like Cookie she is such a sweet fish. I have a 33g grow out for the spawn to start and may add a 55g if needed. the only change for diet has been to be really careful about food quality. Bloodworms are still a small part of the diet but super careful about freshness and re freezing. Also now experimenting with adding vitamin b-12 to diet. 

Post spawn female care is something I am really worried about and have been since Binky and my old female giant passed soon after spawning. I feel Syriiven is right on in analysis of the dangers. So what I did last time was to add 1 tsp AQ salt to my water as well as a half dose of Paraguard. I am not saying this is the right thing to do at all but my female did just fine after spawning with this. I guess other meds could be used as a preventative for bacteria and parasites. Just want to be as pro active as possible to help them. As you know Im not all that big on salts but in this case it may be necessary. Paraguard is not too harsh and is wide spectrum. Im am open to any ideas or experiences of others on this subject.


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## peachii

He is absolutely gorgeous. I can't wait to see this spawn, I adore Giant's! An EE light colored big fin Giant would be my dream betta. It's sad you are in Canada because pretty sure I would love one of these babies... might have to smuggle it past Stone


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## MattsBettas

I honestly don't know if it's an opportunistic infection or a stress-response type thing. I know Binky dropsied and I would assume the reason is stress and injuries from the spawn left her susceptible to the infection, but my two girls went without a symptom (behavioral, external, AND internal). It could very well be from the containers I had them in but it can't be a coincidence that the first two to die were the two that just spawned. Aluka just lost her girl post spawn to, so we aren't the only ones with this happening. I think the way to go might be conditions that keep stress at a bare minimum (clean water, darkened tank, ial)... That would help prevent infection as well. Salt and paraguard at therapeutic doses couldn't hurt...

I'm still trying to meet up with Shae and get VE and white worms in exchange for BW and MW... Next time I'm in Calgary (or you're in Edmonton) I could give you a starter. Your giants would enjoy the worms. 

I still can't believe how awesome that giant boy is. You definitely made the right choice!


----------



## BettaLover1313

Your new male is gorgeous! I love the names of the females as well, particularly Lambchop!


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## logisticsguy

peachii said:


> He is absolutely gorgeous. I can't wait to see this spawn, I adore Giant's! An EE light colored big fin Giant would be my dream betta. It's sad you are in Canada because pretty sure I would love one of these babies... might have to smuggle it past Stone


I have found a way to get the fish to the US a little easier and cheaper but its still too expensive. Who knows maybe we can find a way to get you and Stone a baby giant when the time comes. 



BettaLover1313 said:


> Your new male is gorgeous! I love the names of the females as well, particularly Lambchop!


Thanks much! kids give fish much better names and they suit the girls personality.


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## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> I honestly don't know if it's an opportunistic infection or a stress-response type thing. I know Binky dropsied and I would assume the reason is stress and injuries from the spawn left her susceptible to the infection, but my two girls went without a symptom (behavioral, external, AND internal). It could very well be from the containers I had them in but it can't be a coincidence that the first two to die were the two that just spawned. Aluka just lost her girl post spawn to, so we aren't the only ones with this happening. I think the way to go might be conditions that keep stress at a bare minimum (clean water, darkened tank, ial)... That would help prevent infection as well. Salt and paraguard at therapeutic doses couldn't hurt...
> 
> I'm still trying to meet up with Shae and get VE and white worms in exchange for BW and MW... Next time I'm in Calgary (or you're in Edmonton) I could give you a starter. Your giants would enjoy the worms.
> 
> I still can't believe how awesome that giant boy is. You definitely made the right choice!


 Agreed that keeping stress at a low level is important. The mild dose of salt and meds was the only solution I could think of to help fight off the bacteria and parasites the female is so prone to after spawning. My old giant girl went just like yours quickly and with no sign of a reason for it.

I hope you do see Shae because I cant find the white worms or VE around here at all and the Giants would love the worms. Glad you like the new boy too and really hoping for a success with the upcoming spawns. I think they could produce some really cool looking fry.


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## Quinn

WOW that new guy is gorgeous! I love the girls too though. Can't wait to see what the spawns are like.


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## Stone

I saw that you had bid on that betta, it had an hour 36 minutes to go I was tempted top see how much you would have paid lol nah I was hoping you would get him to replace moose he is an awesome looking fish


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## logisticsguy

Thanks for not bidding on him Stone  Yeah I was sweating it out on that auction. it has not been easy finding a giant that I really liked as much as Moose. The new guy will be set up for conditioning right away in his own 35g tank. Im trading some of my regular sized koi females for another giant boy to a local member this weekend. Things are finally looking up here after a very rough time losing many of my best fish.


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## Stone

These fish tend to break your heart now and then, I had to put down my favorite female today, she go injured and a fungus set it got that cleared up then bam bloat dropsy and pinecone, I had had her on meds for almost 2 weeks trying to save her and lastnight she started turning yellow and I could not stand to watch her suffer no more, the bad things was no clove oil on hand no place open to buy any so I had to resort to the hammer method, but I made the right decision in ending her suffering still doesn't make it any easier, stupid little fish you get all attached to them


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## MattsBettas

When's the new boy set to arrive?


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## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> These fish tend to break your heart now and then, I had to put down my favorite female today, she go injured and a fungus set it got that cleared up then bam bloat dropsy and pinecone, I had had her on meds for almost 2 weeks trying to save her and lastnight she started turning yellow and I could not stand to watch her suffer no more, the bad things was no clove oil on hand no place open to buy any so I had to resort to the hammer method, but I made the right decision in ending her suffering still doesn't make it any easier, stupid little fish you get all attached to them


I completely understand. You did the right thing for your fish. Once pine coned its pretty tough fight and I maybe tried to long with my favorite girl before finally putting her down. these things tend to always happen to our favorite fish. This hobby can be very humbling. I used to think I knew lots and even gave advise until I started losing fish and could not figure out why. Its pretty heartbreaking for sure. At times Ive felt like giving up and finding an easier hobby but I really love these fish so got to hang in there. One thing for sure is many of the best keepers I know have had some problems in the last year. You can only do your best and hope disease doesn't visit. How is your Elvis doing these days?


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## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> When's the new boy set to arrive?


 
Well if a certain transhipper would answer emails I would know for sure. More than a little frustrating.

So I accidently dumped about 200 NLS There A pellets in the giant girls tanks. Freaked and did 3x water change instantly but the lil buggers ate quite a bit just as fast as they could, amazed at how fast and much they went for. I got it cleaned up and the girls look ok but no doubt they would have eaten until they exploded. Tomorrow will be fast day lol.


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## MattsBettas

Hahaha oops! They will be fine, don't worry. 

I know this may sound bad, but despite the fact that I've never worked with him, I don't like Hung Pham. He runs his little monopoly and charges prices that are way to high for customer service that is sub par. 

What would you say is the minimum tank size for a giant? Does it change if it is a male or female?


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## logisticsguy

IMO the smallest tank for a Giant male or female is 10g. I would not keep them in anything less. It may sound crazy but a 30g is not that big for them. To grow to maximum rate and max size you need big water. The thai giant breeders have them in 30g of water and up but that's a lot easier for them of course lol. Also 10g is a minimum for a spawn tank imo 2 giants can make a 10g look pretty small, they produce a lot of waste because they are such piggys.


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## Stone

Elvis is doing awesome, he is pouting at the moment, we did a trim of the plants in his tank. when we trim his plants he gets in a huff for a few days, I do wish I had the space and time to breed bettas I would be hunting down a female for him, I would love to have more fish like him with his temperment, even when he is being a little butt about having his plants trimmed


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## Stone

I would say 10 gallon would be the smallest I would/do keep elvis in harley my other giant is no where near as big as elvis, I would keep him in a 5-6 gal if I had too, I think when talking tank size for giants it's a fish by fish basis
ohh here is that giant betta farm link, he has won some contests with his bettas,http://www.giantbettasworld.com/index.php?lay=show&ac=article&Id=538643011 
now living in a climate where you could breed them outside, not worry about heaters and all of that would be really sweet


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## logisticsguy

Yeah that is an amazing set up. Wish I lived in a much warmer climate and could have giant tubs of giants outside.

So there are 3 more giants headed here on the next shipment which fly out of Thailand tomorrow so really excited. 2 males and 1 more female.


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## MattsBettas

Three? Wow! Can you post pics of the other two? 

I need to figure out how to cram a couple more ten gallons in here now hahaha...


----------



## logisticsguy

Yay!!So looks like my shipment is going to be in next 48 hrs. The new purple lips big ear giant male plus the replacement DOA female (have not seen yet so no idea..a surprise) as well as another giant boy who we have seen pics and really like him. He is Lambchops brother. I will post pics as soon as they are here. Right now trying to figure out the best setup for the new giants and moving some fish and tanks around. mr purple lips big ear guy will get a good feed and straight to being conditioned. Cookie has fattened up a little bit and may be ready soon. With some luck spawn attempts could start in a week to 10 days.


----------



## Stone

I am at the point where as my regular sized bettas die off I will be getting rid of dividers and only having giants, elvis has sold peachii and I on giants, not saying I wont have any normal sized bettas but they will be housed in 2-5 gal tanks by themselves.


----------



## logisticsguy

Yeah Moose sold us on the giants too. There is something different about their nature that I cant explain very well. I have the 10g tanks ready for the new giant shipment. Very frustrated with my transhipper right now. Just ridiculous. Im really hoping they get here ok as Ive lost all confidence in him. Lack of communication and packing issues continue. We need some good old fashioned completion in Canada.


----------



## logisticsguy

So my shipment of Giants came in today. Im pretty sad right now and a bit grumpy. 2 of the 3 arrived ok so that was good. then opened the beautiful HM EE Giant to find him dead. Crushed! Ive contacted Arnat to let know about the doa. but how do you replace a beauty like him. 

So I at least have the 1 giant boy now and he is pretty darn nice too so at least I can start breeding soon. The new girl is Cookies not quite as pretty sister but she is huge. The new boy has his work cut out for him. Trying hard not to get depressed. I will get some pics of them soon.


----------



## Stone

That sucks, That is why I am afraid to order any that have to be shipped twice to get to me, it would make me sad knowing that I am atleast partially to blame for their death, but it would have happened to to whomever bought them.


----------



## logisticsguy

I agree Stone. Its the second shipping that the problems usually happen. The breeder is being very good about it. He will be sending a brother HM EE next shipment but the cost of the cross country transhipping is awful.

Bullwinkle (the new boy) made a good adjustment and is in a tank next to Lambchop. When I uncarded the tanks Lambchop freaked out. She really likes him but he needs a few good meals in him before breeding. It was good to see how excited she is about him. The new female is just hiding she looks exhausted from the trip but healthy.


----------



## redthebetta

Great to hear!


----------



## BettaLover1313

Sorry to hear about the one male dying. Bullwinkle looks really good though!


----------



## MattsBettas

That's such a shame about that boy. He was absolutely beautiful. At least the breeder is being good about it. I'm glad to heart he others made it, at least! 

Was it The transhippers fault again?


----------



## logisticsguy

It wouldn't be fair for me to blame transhipper completely. I would however do things differently myself. I would like to see bigger bags with more water in them. Also it wouldn't hurt to add a heat pack imo. It was warm in TO but as you know cool here in Alberta. 

The Cookie Monster. Holy Cow has this girl grown. When I moved her to a new tank I realized she has almost doubled in size and is just as big as Moose was! What an appetite on this fish just incredible and she just grows without becoming eggy. if I told you how much I feed her you may think Im crazy , cruel of full of balony. Lambchop is a little smaller and is getting a small belly of eggs. Bullwinkle is about same size as Moose was when we got him but he is still very young and has lots of growing up to do. He wouldn't eat pellets until he saw Lambchop eat them. Monkey see monkey do. Conditioning them is kinda fun to watch because of their excitement level its quite the show. Still upset about the HM EE Giant boy but it helps to know his brother is on the way and have struck a deal with breeder for 2 more giant boys. Stocking up on breeders and setting up for multi spawn.


----------



## MattsBettas

I'm excited. Would they be ready to go in early January? ;-)

I was even excited for that giant boy, but with a brother all the genes are there and I'm sure he looks great too. You'll have to post pics of the new ones!


----------



## Hallyx

That's a good-looking giant.... not all chunky and bulked up like a lot of them. Best of luck with your spawns. I'm following this thread closely.


----------



## Quinn

So sorry about the EE boy  He was such a stunner. I hope his brother arrives safely and is just as handsome! Man you're making me want a giant!


----------



## beautiful Betta

sorry you lost your boy, and the other new boy.


----------



## ashleylyn

I just went through this entire journal lol, I adore giants. I wish you were in the US, I would be interested in buying some females from a future spawn. Best of luck with your new boy, he is a looker. Shame about that DOA, what a beauty he was!


----------



## logisticsguy

@Matt yes the goal is to have giant fry available early to mid January with 1 spawn per month for the year. Ive seen some pics of the HM EE giant brothers and they all look very nice. That giant breeder has some amazing genetics so it will be nice to work with the dna lol.

@Hallyx Thank you. Yes many giants have a real funny look to them and often lack good color or finnage. Ive seen a real jump in the quality of some giant breeders in the last year.

@Quinn yeah that was a terrible fish to lose. The best looking giant HM EE ive seen. Heartbreaking. I think the new brothers will be pretty good and hope no problems this happen time. maybe I will have a young giant you like early next year.

@beautiful betta Yes it has been a very frustrating hobby lately. 

I had a female in my 30 girl sorority die today. no idea why. We havnt had a sorority girl die in months so a bit worrisome. Lots of chasing and scrapping since the death in a usually super peaceful group. Not good.

Cookies growth rate is almost scary. What a spurt. now I wonder how big a male will have to be to even wrap her up. She is only 5.5 months old and should grow for another 6 months or so. The boy will have a challenge. at the very least. Her appetite and metabolism is incredible and far greater than any of the other giants ive had before. I will try to get some pics so you can compare her with my normal size betta of the exact same age.


----------



## logisticsguy

ashleylyn said:


> I just went through this entire journal lol, I adore giants. I wish you were in the US, I would be interested in buying some females from a future spawn. Best of luck with your new boy, he is a looker. Shame about that DOA, what a beauty he was!


Thanks for reading the journal ashleylyn  Hoping for some good luck with this project. There have been lots of ups and downs already.

The doa breeder has sent me pics of the HM EE brothers. Its crazy late so I will post pics of the boys tomorrow.

So agreed to the replacement and also bought 2 of the other HM brothers because Im an addict and cant help myself.


----------



## beautiful Betta

just a question, I am curious do you know if the giants live longer, or less as it is with dogs.


----------



## ashleylyn

logisticsguy said:


> Thanks for reading the journal ashleylyn  Hoping for some good luck with this project. There have been lots of ups and downs already.
> 
> The doa breeder has sent me pics of the HM EE brothers. Its crazy late so I will post pics of the boys tomorrow.
> 
> So agreed to the replacement and also bought 2 of the other HM brothers because Im an addict and cant help myself.


Can't wait for pictures! Hehe I know how that is. I work at Petsmart and get to see all of the bettas, including those in the back room. I keep bringing more home. :lol: I wish you tons of luck with your new boys! Hopefully no more DOAs!


----------



## Stone

Watch your sorority like a hawk, that is how ours went down hill one of the higher up girls died for no reason and the scrapping began, then the alpha got real beat up and died and it pretty much went to #$%^ after that.


----------



## logisticsguy

Yeah Stone Im very concerned. Lots of tail slapping, long chases and aggressive behaviour. I may take a couple of the baddest girls out for some solitaire. Its never been this aggressive before and the sorority is over a year old.


----------



## logisticsguy

This isn't a good picture but Cookie Monster is on the left and a regular sized female same age is in the right container. Bullwinkle looks healthy and eating well so I may start a spawn in the next couple days.


----------



## logisticsguy

Here are some pics of the Giant HM EE brothers on the next shipment.

#1




























#2




























#3


----------



## MattsBettas

Those look great, CJ. I think I like the 2nd one the best. 

What pair will you be spawning?


----------



## logisticsguy

I will be spawning Bullwinkle with Lambchop first. They have been conditioning very well together. El-Chop has a little bigger belly of eggs and is already doing the wiggle dance. Cookie will be saved for one of the new EE guys. I have the spawn tank ready so may give it a try tomorrow as they are doing perfect mating behaviour so far.


----------



## beautiful Betta

those guys look nice. Fingers crossed for you that they arrive all ok.


----------



## BettaLover1313

Those are some gorgeous boys! I hope they all arrive in good condition!


----------



## Hallyx

Number One is very very nice. Great color separation. Llove the two-tone fade body and the dragon-ish scalage. Good topline and proportoin. Hard to believe he's a giant. I'd stand in line for one of his spawn.


----------



## PetMania

Those boys are beautiful!


----------



## MattsBettas

So, did you do the spawn?


----------



## logisticsguy

Bullwinkle and Lambchop are in the tank. So far so good He is working on his nest already. A little chasing but they are doing well. This part is so exciting. There are a couple of hidy caves and some plants like hornwart. wisteria, anubius, giant duckweed in the tank. Its fun to watch the show. Too bad my camera zonked out Im missing some good pics.


----------



## MattsBettas

Sounds great. Keep us updated.


----------



## Quinn

Exciting, fingers crossed for many healthy, gorgeous giant babies.
Hope te new boys all arrive safe and sound as well, they are all lookers.


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is a dumb video of the pair right before the spawn attempt.

http://s1145.photobucket.com/user/logisticsguy/media/LGs%20fish/August13/BullxChop_zpsfb49d39f.mp4.html


----------



## logisticsguy

Its hard to watch these fish sometimes. Bullwinkle can be pretty mean to Lambchop. It always bugs me me the female submits but the male continues to bite and be nasty. he is at least a nest caretaker type unlike Moose who was a total slob. I was at work so not sure if they have spawned or not yet.


----------



## logisticsguy

The most awkward, clumsy, hilarious mating attempt ever seen. 

The good news is they are trying their best to make babies. 

Rookies are very funny to watch.


----------



## MattsBettas

That's very good news!


----------



## dramaqueen

Lol they're like, um, how are we supposed to do this?


----------



## MattsBettas

So? Did you get eggs?


----------



## MattsBettas

Any news? I think you should have gotten the new boys in by now... Hoping to hear some good news.


----------



## logisticsguy

We should find out the ship date very soon. The first spawn attempt was cut short by my having to leave for a couple of days and couldn't leave Lambchop in there without supervision. Good practice for them. The pair were reconditioned and tonight is another try. 

Cookie continues to eat and grow at an amazing rate. She will be the biggest giant girl for sure. Bullwinkle is hyper active which is a good thing I guess. He quickly built a decent bubblenest so hoping for some eggs.


----------



## logisticsguy

It looks like this spawn attempt was a success! We have wigglers


----------



## beautiful Betta

that's good news congratulations.


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## BettaLover1313

Awesome! Congratulations!


----------



## Hallyx

WTG, LG. YaY


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks! I am very excited, its been a bumpy road to get here.
Free swimmers now! It looks like quite a few fry too. 
I forgot how tiny new born fry are and for some reason thought giant fry would be larger than normal. They are not from what I can tell.


----------



## Quinn

Woohoo! Can't wait to see how they develop!


----------



## redthebetta

Me too!!! I may just buy some ;-)!


----------



## dramaqueen

I can't wait for pics when they get big enough.


----------



## logisticsguy

My work is mostly delivery of air cargo and often get live animals. Usually cats and dogs but today we had special guests. The most beautiful animals Ive ever seen. Chettahs!!! These kittys purr when you pet them. They Love people and just totally amazing! They are just over a year old and spoiled like crazy. These cats can run at top speed of 70 mph. This pair is so bonded whe they were more than a few ft from each other they would chirp to each other just so cute. Best delivery EVER.


----------



## dramaqueen

They're beautiful!! How lucky that you got to see them!


----------



## Destinystar

I love them and want to pet them and hear them purr. They are so beautiful !


----------



## beautiful Betta

just curious are they someone's pet, or were they heading to a wildlife park?


----------



## logisticsguy

The cheetah are at a rural animal sanctuary. They are as tame as housecats and will be part of an educational tour that visits schools. They have a huge area to run and play which is good because they are part of an international endangered species breeding program. The cats sleep with their trainer/ owner at night. She is a wonderful person and the care is top notch.


----------



## logisticsguy

Cookie is 4.75 inches long from mouth to start of tail now. She eats 30+ nls betta everyday and thinks she is being starved to death. I may try to breed her soon because if she keeps growing fast like this all the males could be too small to wrap her. Cookie is just special to me such a sweetie and great personality.


----------



## MattsBettas

Those cheetahs are awesome. Good luck with breeding, and getting your new fish in safely (let us know when they are set to arrive!).'

I bred a female who was quite a bit larger then her mate, which is apparently a big no-no, but they figured it out eventually. Not recommending it though, I'm sure similar sized fish is better.


----------



## dramaqueen

Were they able to complete the process? Lol


----------



## MattsBettas

My pair, dramaqueen?


----------



## dramaqueen

Yes. You said the female was too big.


----------



## Stone

That is awesome, just have to love all the big cats, I am feeding my new giant dexter 3 times a day he acts like I am starving him to death, I have my eye on 2 more giants but am waiting on the betta shops delivery they get in a few days


----------



## MattsBettas

Nope, they eventually got it right after a few failed wraps. I have 17(?) seven or eight week old fry from them now.


----------



## Cleeon

hi All, I'm new here and make My first post on this thread.

I have giant betta and when find this thread online, I reading it, currently I follow Your discussion here to learn more.

the female, which pretty one was jump and died, I need more knowledge.
thanks for sharing


----------



## Hallyx

We're glad you're here, Cleeon. 
Do you have pictures of your fish? 
Tell us about them.
Welcome to the forum.


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> That is awesome, just have to love all the big cats, I am feeding my new giant dexter 3 times a day he acts like I am starving him to death, I have my eye on 2 more giants but am waiting on the betta shops delivery they get in a few days


How many pellets are you feeding Dexter per day Stone? I worry that im over feeding at 30+ per day but the fish behaviour says otherwise lol.



Cleeon said:


> hi All, I'm new here and make My first post on this thread.
> 
> I have giant betta and when find this thread online, I reading it, currently I follow Your discussion here to learn more.
> 
> the female, which pretty one was jump and died, I need more knowledge.
> thanks for sharing


Hi Cleeon nice to have you here! No problem sharing, I learn more as I go and also appreciate any additional info you and others can provide as well. My first giant female died suddenly for no apparent reason but I suspect it was too quick of a temperature change. Giants appear to be much more sensitive to sudden temp change or cool water conditions.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Those cheetahs are awesome. Good luck with breeding, and getting your new fish in safely (let us know when they are set to arrive!).'
> 
> I bred a female who was quite a bit larger then her mate, which is apparently a big no-no, but they figured it out eventually. Not recommending it though, I'm sure similar sized fish is better.


Im still waiting for confirmation of the ship day... yes frustrated.

Yeah it isn't recommended in a perfect world to breed much larger female but what else can you do with such a big girl? The new boys will have their work cut out for them cuz she is gonna be a monster at this rate. Worlds Largest Sardine.


----------



## Stone

25-30 pellets a day, i am trying to get him to grow, he is maybe 2/3 the size that elvis was, so yeah, I ahve my eye on 2 more one for me and one for peachii but I am waiting to see what the betta shop gets wensday, so I will have some pics to post soon no matter the outcome.


----------



## MattsBettas

Any more news? How are the fry doing?


----------



## logisticsguy

Still waiting for a ship date for the 3 giant boys. It looks like we only got about 8 fry from the last spawn. All the giants are super healthy right now. Ive put Cookie next to Bullwinkle and getting them used to each other. She had no interest at first but is showing more today with some flaring. First time she ever paid attention to anything other than food. So we might try a Cookie x Bullwinkle on Monday.


----------



## beautiful Betta

is Bullwinkle cowering in a corner the other side of his tank thinking she's to big I cant, lol:lol::lol:


----------



## Cleeon

Hallyx said:


> We're glad you're here, Cleeon.
> Do you have pictures of your fish?
> Tell us about them.
> Welcome to the forum.


 please wait
We will photo him,
very sad the female giant dead after jump to the floor, now I just have half giant mellano copper female.

thanks so much


----------



## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> is Bullwinkle cowering in a corner the other side of his tank thinking she's to big I cant, lol:lol::lol:


It was pretty funny to watch. Bullwinkle expected to see Lambchop as usual but when the card was pulled he just looked shocked. Where was chop? Who is this? Is it a female? Is this monster my species? lol he just looked so confused. After about an hour his courage came back and he was back to being a show off and trying to convince cookie that he is handsome. Dude is so full of himself


----------



## logisticsguy

Ok the 3 new giants are on way here via air yay! Transhipper and I both sick of deaths so now we are flying them in from Toronto. Much quicker way to go and since I deliver air cargo so convenient. We are so hoping for good health this time. So excited to see them.


----------



## logisticsguy

Cleeon said:


> please wait
> We will photo him,
> very sad the female giant dead after jump to the floor, now I just have half giant mellano copper female.
> 
> thanks so much


Oh that's too bad Cleeon. Its crazy how high they can jump and Ive lost a good one that way too named Smokey. Now Im ultra careful to have tops covered by clear plastic lids.


----------



## Quinn

I hope the handsome new guys arrive safe and sound with this method! And that Cookie and Bullwinkle decide to make fast friends! I wanna see some giant behbehs! Do they start out the same general size as regular fry and then just grow exponentially quicker, or are they big'uns to begin with?


----------



## MattsBettas

That's great to hear! Let us know when they arrive.


----------



## beautiful Betta

that is glad to hear that he got his confidence back.

Fingers crossed that your new boys arrive safe and sound.


----------



## logisticsguy

The giant brothers arrived perfect! A little pale but the colors came back within 15 minutes. Slowly acclimated them and just WOW even more amazing than the photos. So happy  Top notch packing by Hung! Sending via air cargo is by far the best way to go here if at all possible. the boys all have their own cycled 10g tanks with a few plants.


----------



## MattsBettas

That's awesome. I'm so glad to hear things worked out.

Post pics when you can.


----------



## beautiful Betta

that's great news, cant wait to see some pictures.


----------



## logisticsguy

I will try to get some pics soon. Once again these guys have no idea of what to do with nls pellets so trying some frozen bloodworms later. They are swimming around the tanks and very active which is a great sign. The biggest one is next to Cookie for conditioning but it will take a week or two to get him up to par he looks like he could use a few good meals before his big job.

A snow storm blew in so I put Bullwinkle and L Chop in a spawn tank. Boom 30 minutes later eggs everywhere. She was better conditioned this time and its going very well. Practice makes perfect lol. I may get some pics of this also. So a really good day here for the project. The eggs are very big this time but Chop ate a many of them. Hope lots got fertilized fingers crossed.


----------



## logisticsguy

Quinn said:


> I hope the handsome new guys arrive safe and sound with this method! And that Cookie and Bullwinkle decide to make fast friends! I wanna see some giant behbehs! Do they start out the same general size as regular fry and then just grow exponentially quicker, or are they big'uns to begin with?


 
Ive read than only 30% of giant x giant cross become true giants but there can be more or less. They usually start out the same size roughly but the giants will out grow the others by a wide margin in the first 16 weeks.


----------



## logisticsguy

One thing Ive found doing research on the internet about giant betta is there isn't much good info and lots of conflicting opinions. One thing is for sure it is much more difficult to breed and one of the reasons from what I can tell is they have trouble getting into the click while mating. Since they are larger and less agile it seems giant x giant can be difficult. Just an idea lol but many good breeders have failed or had major problems working with giants.


----------



## beautiful Betta

well it sounds like your not doing to bad, how are the few eggs/fry doing from the first attempt, if I remember correctly did you say you had about 8 swimmers


----------



## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> well it sounds like your not doing to bad, how are the few eggs/fry doing from the first attempt, if I remember correctly did you say you had about 8 swimmers


Sometimes it feels like Im not doing very well. Ive had 3 giants die on me and 3 die in transit. After 3 spawn attempts only 8 fry. I am learning all the time and hope to do better. The fry are doing good but are in a plastic container that doesn't lend itself to pics but in a couple weeks they are going into a growout so it will be easier. We just took a few pics with the cell phone of new guys I will get them posted after my tv show...Survivor lol.


----------



## MattsBettas

You ARE doing well though... There is nothing you can do with transit issues and I know for a fact there was almost nothing you could have done for at least one of the deaths. You know what you're doing... Obviously giants are just difficult to work with. I just lost the one fish I didn't want to lose before I got to breed her, and I'm pretty upset about it, but stuff like that happens in this hobby and it usually isn't the hobbyists fault. 

Post pics when you get them. I want to see the new fish and the babies.


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Matt. Im going to keep trying. This can be a frustrating hobby but I enjoy it to much to stop. Giants appear to develop a little slower sexually. Ive just noticed a big change in behaviour by the females lately, now they are really interested in boys and doing the wiggle dance a lot. Cookie and Lambchop are 6 month old now and likely better conditioned. The new guys caught on to pellets already but don't like them much yet. The high dose of garlic in nls thera got their attention. New guy #1 is next to Cookie now because he is the biggest and the wife thinks he is very pretty. They are only 16 weeks old so quite young and smaller than Cookie (who has a nice belly of eggs) so that will be interesting. Plan is to spawn them late next week if all goes well. The best feeding schedule seems to be 6 nls betta 4x per day with 3 nls thera a 2x per day and a few nls grow thrown in for snacks. I have a small culture of ww going but it cant possibly keep up.


----------



## logisticsguy

Number 1




























Number 2



















Giant #3


----------



## logisticsguy

Bullwinkle










Cookie


----------



## MattsBettas

Number one reminds me of ofl's old avatar fish, which immediately caught my attention because the coloration is amazing. 








Good luck with the spawns... I'll have to make room for a pair if male 1 and Cookie breed.


----------



## logisticsguy

My cell phone camera doesn't really do them justice either much nicer in person so if you get a chance to stop in for a visit it would be great. Yeah number 1 is very much like the brother who died in transit. If I get them to go (and I will dog gone it) id love for you to have a pair.


----------



## beautiful Betta

your new boys are lovely, are they EE as well?


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks beautiful Betta. Yes they are EE. It was rare to find giant EE. The breeders in Thailand have come along way in the breeding of giants. They have much better color, form and fin than was available only a couple of years ago.


----------



## beautiful Betta

they certainly have, to look at them I would have thought they were normal size bettas with how brightly coloured they are, you cant really tell the size on a picture, lol. and to have EE as well, you really have got some good stock to work with.


----------



## MattsBettas

I will definitely stop by when I'm down there again, but that probably won't be until January... I don't know if the babies will be ready to go by then though. If you're interested in any from either one of my spawns I'll save the second best pair (sorry, the best one's mine!) for you and drop them off then. 

Cookie is an hmpk, right?


----------



## BettaLover1313

All of your giants are beautiful! Love the new boys!


----------



## Quinn

Lovely! I can't see the colors that well on my phone but I think 3 might be my fav new boy. Seeing these new pics of Bullwinkle though I'm liking him much more! And Cookie <3


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks guys I really love these fish. Matt, Cookie was sold as a hmpk giant however the breeder says she has both hmpk and hm genes. This makes sense as she looks like a tweener. We have a small language barrier but I believe this is what he was trying to communicate. The new EE boys are eating like little pigs today and looks like they got over the bias against pellets. Hunger wins the day. Im looking for names for these guys and may name them after my favorite USA presidents of all time (Im a USA history bug). Nixon, Bush, Hoover. Just kidding, my favorite presidents are Lincoln, Roosevelt and Jefferson.


----------



## MattsBettas

Well, Hoover would be an appropriate name for a fish that eats so much.

Let me know when you're going to breed them.


----------



## dramaqueen

MattsBettas said:


> Number one reminds me of ofl's old avatar fish, which immediately caught my attention because the coloration is amazing.
> View attachment 237090
> 
> 
> Good luck with the spawns... I'll have to make room for a pair if male 1 and Cookie breed.


It does look like OFL 's old avatar. She's back by the way.


----------



## logisticsguy

dramaqueen said:


> It does look like OFL 's old avatar. She's back by the way.


Thanking you and Matt because what a nice complement for the new fishy. I saw OFL is back too and so happy about that. She took the time to answer so many (silly) questions from me when I started out. A mentor that shaped many of the philosophies I have today regarding betta. 

Today was water change day so woohoo glad that's over for now. The new fellas are all hyper active and eating very well. it wont take me long to get them all up to par for spawning at this rate. So Im planning on trying 4 spawns at once as soon as the boys are ready.

A. # 1 New giant EE x Cookie
B. #2 new giant EE x Lambchop
C. Bullwinkle X Storm (red HM) regular
D. #3 new giant EE x Tiki (marble HM) regular


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

logisticsguy said:


> Number 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Number 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Giant #3


Really gorgeous giants - can't wait to see pictures of the fry they produce. Which Thailand breeder were these EE guys from?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes Im pretty excited to see the fry from this bunch. It took some time and a lot of research to find the stock quality I was looking for. These boys are from arnatbetta. Very good breeder who has some awards with a lovely farm. I can also tell you elegantbetta is top notch we love his fish. The other giant breeder I can recommend is rattanpornbetta. My plan was to get the best stock possible and work with the 3 lines to make good line or 2 of my own. Also going to mix the genes of my own quirky marble HM line into it just for giggles see what unique Giants may come of it. This will all take some time but I enjoy these fish lots so just super fish nerdy fun for me.


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

Well I will definitely be watching this thread! You have some beautiful fish to work with and I bet it will be very exciting to see what sort of lines they produce.


----------



## Chachi

Wow, those are gorgeous!


----------



## dramaqueen

They're beautiful!


----------



## logisticsguy

This is Jupiter he is the biggest EE giant. He loves to flare and show off for Cookie who couldn't be less interested in him at this point. Its like he asks for a date and Cookie is No way Mr. Get Lost!

Fred The original VT my first betta ever not looking so good tonight going to move him to a hospital tank now. The guy cycled 17 tanks for me so he is a special one.


----------



## MattsBettas

He looks great. Hopefully Cookie smartens up. She better hahaha.

Good luck with Fred... It's always scary when anything happens to our favorites.


----------



## dramaqueen

Poor Fred. I hope he'll get better.


----------



## logisticsguy

Sadly Fast Fred did not make it. He may be the first fish Ive had to die of old age as no sign of disease. Fred was not a giant in size but he was a giant character. This VT got me into betta and started a terrible but awesome addiction. Its a shame that VT are thought of so lowly by some in the betta community. Mr Fish In Cycle was 1st man in for 17 tanks. SIP little buddy gonna miss you.


----------



## logisticsguy

Jupiter will have his work cut out for him. He is still very young and only 3.25 inches long while Cookie is almost 5 inches and weighs quite a bit more than he does. Matt I think Cookie is coming along better today warming up to him. Ive learned to be patient with these guys and its worth it to go slow. Hope to start this spawn in a few days.


----------



## MattsBettas

Sorry for your loss CJ. At least old age is peaceful. 

I'm excited to see how he spawn works out. Keep us updated. They are a beautiful pair.


----------



## Quinn

COOKIE MONSTER IS A GIANT! (I mean, a gianter giant...) She is so darn cute. 
Damn, I really may need a giant. Pretty sure the boyfriend will kill me... I've already taken up so much of our minimal counter space as is. Maybe I can fit a 5 gallon on the TV stand and then use the 10 for a giant...

Have you guys had luck keeping giants with tank mates? Shrimp, Snails, anything like that? It's my one annoyance with Bettas, I like more than one thing in the tank, but I haven't found other fish to be as personable (or beautiful) as the Bettas are. I have heard some reports that giants seem more docile, but at the same time I imagine a shrimp or snail would be an even more appropriate sized meal.

I'm so sorry you lost your boy, but it sounds like he had a great long life at least. And went peacefully.


----------



## logisticsguy

Hey Quinn thanks for that. I saw Fred was not going to be helped by added salts or meds so I made a nice hornwort bed at the top for him to lay on. He was not suffering so did not euthanize just let nature take its course. It was a peaceful passing and he had the best life I could give him. My wife actually took it hard as Fred was her lil buddy.

Yeah Cookie is a huge girl even for a giant. Warning giants can be addictive lol. the only other fish ive kept with a giant is panda cories and they seem to do ok with any size betta for me. Pretty sure Shrimp would be a nice light snack for these guys. Giants can be more or less aggressive its really an individual thing just like regular betta imo. You can squeeze a bit more space out of the boyfriend just wait for him to want something and make a deal then. This approach has worked for me but now the wife knows my strategy and has her guard up.


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

logisticsguy said:


> You can squeeze a bit more space out of the boyfriend just wait for him to want something and make a deal then. This approach has worked for me but now the wife knows my strategy and has her guard up.


Haha, love this! Definitely my strategy of choice for the husband, too


----------



## Quinn

logisticsguy said:


> You can squeeze a bit more space out of the boyfriend just wait for him to want something and make a deal then. This approach has worked for me but now the wife knows my strategy and has her guard up.


Hah, my strategy with all my dogs and ex was just get them and he can name them (or rather, suggest names till I like one :lol: ). Somehow that worked! Isn't the saying its better to ask for forgiveness than permission? Although I really would (will?) have to work at figuring out space, because we still need SOMEWHERE to prepare dinner. Can't wait to get out of this stupid apartment. I'm pining for some country living badly!


----------



## logisticsguy

Pic spam of the final stages in conditioning. The girls are floating with the boys. 
This is a fun part because the males always put on their best show.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## Elsewhere

OMG I love how huge Cookie is! Good luck, LG!


----------



## MattsBettas

Man they look great CJ. When are the spawns planed for?


----------



## Quinn

I want a Baby Cookie Monster! If any make their way down to the ole U.S. let me know...
All those boys are so handsome, but now I think you need more giant girls!


----------



## logisticsguy

It looks like within 48 hrs they should be ready to go. Cookie is starting to do a clumsy little S swim so somewhat of a flirt. Lambchop always ready to go these days. Ive got the tanks almost all ready. Great gobs of bloodworms today and getting the old bbs hatchery fine tuned tonight.


----------



## logisticsguy

Quinn said:


> I want a Baby Cookie Monster! If any make their way down to the ole U.S. let me know...
> All those boys are so handsome, but now I think you need more giant girls!


I really do need a couple more giant girls. Fact is I like female betta more than males. On the look for 2 more females from one of my fav thai breeders but they wont be available for a month. You know shipping to the US is possible it just costs more, but it is doable. If I get some lil Cookies I will for sure let you know


----------



## redthebetta

Hehe I may just buy some for my 20 gal sorority. It's only got 6 bettas in it now .


----------



## Skyewillow

We keep our giant in with guppies, pygmy cories, and an otocinclus. He's been doing really well in there so far (it's also a 30 gal tank.)


----------



## beautiful Betta

that last shot of Jupiter is great, he really is flaring superbly to impress cookie, he obviously likes older women, lol.


----------



## logisticsguy

Skyewillow said:


> We keep our giant in with guppies, pygmy cories, and an otocinclus. He's been doing really well in there so far (it's also a 30 gal tank.)


Hey Skye is Laz still being Mr Grumpy pants? a 30g tank for a giant is very much like a 10g for a regular betta imo because they weigh 4x as much. Sometimes Cookies poops look like they came from a cat litter box.


----------



## logisticsguy

redthebetta said:


> Hehe I may just buy some for my 20 gal sorority. It's only got 6 bettas in it now .


I tried adding a giant girl to my my sorority a couple months ago but abandoned the plan when the regular sized girls freaked. Total chaos. Ive read some people made it work but it sure didn't here lol. you have done a nice job with your sorority Red.


----------



## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> that last shot of Jupiter is great, he really is flaring superbly to impress cookie, he obviously likes older women, lol.


He isn't afraid of the plus sized ladies either. Jupiter puts on quite the show he gives it his all. Cookie is finally getting warmed up to him so might video the live intro when I release her it should be interesting. The key for success will be if he can wrap her up tightly and hold her during the spawn. This part has been the most difficult so far for the giants.


----------



## Stone

I am sorry to hear about fred, Imiss my little mutt of a veiltail, clown he was a great little fish, I wish you luck on the spawn and of course I want to see pics of the little guys once they get big, as far as what I have kept with giants, well with elvis anyways was just about anything and everything platys,corys,tetras, and even bigger ghost shrimp, I even had platy and molly fry in with him, he paid them no attention and they were very "snack sized" to him. With all bettas it's a fish by fish basis, some don't mind company some hate it, Harley the smallest of my giants lived with harliquin rabosas mystery snails and 2 dwarf african frogs with no issues. Someone here was thinking about getting a new tank I found this tank http://www.truaqua.com/aquarium-tank-st320.html it is on clearance and well really cheap and looks decent, I ordered one and will do a review on it once I get it and get it set up, it's a whopping 27 bucks and change for tank hood light and filter so it is worth a shot, they have a few others that are priced to move


----------



## MattsBettas

Any news? Have you introduced them?


----------



## logisticsguy

Cookie will be released this evening Matt. Im excited but must say I worry about her getting beat up. Im attached and don't think I should watch lol. The other 3 spawns were released this morning. Cookie has been doing the final float for a couple hours. Wish I saw more mating behaviour from her but ive tried to be patient.


----------



## redthebetta

I can't wait! I really love Cookie's colors.


----------



## summnd

Matt, toward the beginning of the post I noticed you pointed out there's a difference in 'King' and 'Giant' which I've been asking about..what's the difference?


----------



## MattsBettas

Kings are typically smaller then actual giants (half giants, maybe), but the term is kinda blurry... Logisticsguy could probably tell you more.


----------



## logisticsguy

That is a very good question summnd. as Matt said it is blurry but I have done some research on this. King is usually a Petco term that means really big betta. Nothing more. A King may or may not have any giant genetics at all. Most Kings do not have giant genetics but no doubt some may carry the gene. For instance I have a few males from large stock that would be sold at a Petco as a King. At full grown a giant male should be at least 3.5 -4 inches body but some have been grown as large as 7 inches but that is very very rare to get that big. breeding 100% giant to 100% giant will only produce 10% to 35% Giants. To get a giant both parents must carry the giant gene.


----------



## MattsBettas

There we go. Thanks, CJ. 

Has Cookie been released?


----------



## PetMania

=) subscribed 

Very interested in giants, have always wanted one since I first got into the whole betta thing-ma-bob


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> There we go. Thanks, CJ.
> 
> Has Cookie been released?


Just released Matt. Im like a nervous parent. It went good with a big show by Jupiter and cookie paying a little attention. Cookie is the most mellow betta Ive ever seen. No biting yet so far so good. I had to cover and walk away. Its up to them now.


----------



## summnd

Thanks for the explanation & good luck to you!


----------



## MattsBettas

Sounds great, make sure to keep us updated...


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> I am sorry to hear about fred, Imiss my little mutt of a veiltail, clown he was a great little fish, I wish you luck on the spawn and of course I want to see pics of the little guys once they get big, as far as what I have kept with giants, well with elvis anyways was just about anything and everything platys,corys,tetras, and even bigger ghost shrimp, I even had platy and molly fry in with him, he paid them no attention and they were very "snack sized" to him. With all bettas it's a fish by fish basis, some don't mind company some hate it, Harley the smallest of my giants lived with harliquin rabosas mystery snails and 2 dwarf african frogs with no issues. Someone here was thinking about getting a new tank I found this tank http://www.truaqua.com/aquarium-tank-st320.html it is on clearance and well really cheap and looks decent, I ordered one and will do a review on it once I get it and get it set up, it's a whopping 27 bucks and change for tank hood light and filter so it is worth a shot, they have a few others that are priced to move


Moose was like Elvis and didn't care what was in the tank he totally ignored other fish. I agree all these guys have their own personality for the most part they arnt very aggressive in nature just big teddy bears. dear lord that is a crazy good deal. Let me know how it works out. How are the new ones doing?


----------



## logisticsguy

Peeking into Jupiter and Cookies tank. Lots of chasing so its time for me to cover and leave again. Jupiter doesn't believe in building a bubble nest beforehand like his brothers. The other spawns look to be on the right track. Time to shut the lights off.










Tiki and Neptune look ready to go, she is just plum full of eggs. Great nest builder this guy he has so many bubbles under the leaf it will never sink.


----------



## Stone

All the new guys are doing very good, Dexter is full of energy, Blizzard arrived with swim bladder issues but I got that cleared up and he is doing great, Donovan, peachii's giant is very pretty and doing good, and Houdini the escape artist is doing great as well, he will be getting the new tank


----------



## MattsBettas

Any spawns?


----------



## logisticsguy

Not yet but Lambchop and Saturn are starting to spawn Yay!. Cookie and Jupiter making progress but not there yet. No damage on Cookie yet so that's good. Bullwinkle/ Storm also starting to spawn. Neptune and Tiki also look like it will happen soon but she is a stubborn lil fish. All the girls are relatively unscathed at this point. Tracy calls my setup the "Fish Love Shack". Cookie looks like she has no clue what is going on or what to do, Im hoping nature instincts take over.


----------



## redthebetta

Is Tiki a giant? I bought a girl from you that looks identical to her except the scales but she is normal sized?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yeah Tiki is a regular sized girl and your fishes sister. So the fry will be half giants. This is the way I can introduce my line into the giant line by crossing the offspring back to another giant later as they will then carry giant genetics.


----------



## redthebetta

Ah, ok. I was wondering about that. Hmm... I may think about breeding the giant that I'm most certainly going to buy of you with one of my HMs and starting a line of half giants ;-) .


----------



## logisticsguy

..


----------



## redthebetta

.. <-What is that supposed to mean?


----------



## MattsBettas

Any more news? Sorry to nag, I'm just anxious to hear.

I'll be in Calgary in January...


----------



## logisticsguy

Haha your not a nag Matt. Well not much to report sadly. There is a big low pressure system blowing in tomorrow night so Im hoping it triggers the spawning. Its worked before. Im dealing with some pretty funny rookies who I need to be patient with.

Im working with some probiotic lacto bacteria and trying to formulate a betta pellet containing this and other probiotics. You would not believe how much this can help keep the bad bacteria under control in the fish gut. A good flora can boost immune system, speed growth and improve digestion. Its a really interesting thing to study. I believe many of the problems betta keepers have with their fish can be prevented by incorporating this into the fish diet especially vey early in the fishes life. I may make a post about it soon. Im just about done my own trial but the results from my stuff and research on others is indicating solid results.


----------



## MattsBettas

Making your own pellet? How is that done?


----------



## logisticsguy

With a machine like this. It would have to be on a commercial basis but producing an amazing quality pellet that includes probiotics and custom blends is possible. 

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1148792700/floating_fish_feed_pellet_making_machine.html


----------



## MattsBettas

That would be very cool. Have you thought of ingredients and stuff yet?


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> That would be very cool. Have you thought of ingredients and stuff yet?


Oh yeah even tried out different recipes and working on a blend that is highly nutritious easily digested and balances the flora of bacteria in the fish stomach. 

They are getting closer. Cookie spent most of the day hiding (if you could call it that) in the weeds. Tonight she came out to flare at Jupiter aggressively and do a major wiggle dance. She even went to check to see what he had done for a nest. she was not impressed, hope he is one of those build it as needed fish. Good to see such strong mating behaviour from her finally. Its amusing to watch a clumsy 5 inch fish do a wiggle dance.


----------



## Hallyx

Speaking of alternate foods --- are you familiar with Alan Rapashy's products? They say that the powder is great for fry. If you make it into blocks, they can eat all day.


----------



## logisticsguy

Hallyx said:


> Speaking of alternate foods --- are you familiar with Alan Rapashy's products? They say that the powder is great for fry. If you make it into blocks, they can eat all day.


Good to hear that others have had good results with this product on fry. Ive used the Rapashy community plus gel to feed the probiotics to the adult fish. Its easy to just add it to the powder premix. Ive never tried it with young fry yet but with the upcoming spawns I will now. The best time to add probiotics is in the very first feeds of the fish life anyways. btw this is a good way to add any med like kanaplex orally to the fish.


----------



## MattsBettas

I know BasementBettas feeds her fry that... I've heard good things. By the way, you reminded me- I have been dealing with a fish with dropsy for close to a week now by doing daily baths in high amounts of paraguard and Epsom salts and administering kanaplex orally. Thought you might be interested to know since this is the most success I've had as of yet with the condition. 

If I could design my own food it would have lots of garlic and some spirulina.

Riverfront is having a big sale, by the way- http://www.riverfront.ca


----------



## logisticsguy

That is a good mix to save the fish Matt. The key it seems is getting on it early and hitting it hard. Ive read articles that say dropsy can often be the result of a bacterial imbalance in the fish gut. This triggers a parasite that is almost always present, the immune system fails due to its weakened state. Let me know how it goes with your dropsy fish if you can save the fish it would be quite an accomplishment.

Cookie is very aggressive now flaring and never leaving Jupiter alone. He seems confused and some what scared lol. Poor boy has no idea what to do or even build a nest. The barometer is falling and you can see it in the increased activity in the tanks. Saturn is guarding his nest with his life. Storm is all v striped and Bullwinkle has a small but growing nest.

Thanks for the heads up on the Riverfront sale Im going on Monday and need a bunch of fish things.


----------



## logisticsguy

Cookie in no danger of getting beat up she pursues Jupiter constantly flaring at him and doing the dance. Jupiter may be thrown off his game with this lol Cmon dude she likes you! He just looks un interested in the whole thing and has no bubblenest.


----------



## MattsBettas

Nice pic of the pair. Hopefully they figure it out soon. 

At least they both look like they're in good shape.


----------



## beautiful Betta

Maybe you need to let Jupiter see what his brothers are doing, lol.

good luck with it all, I love reading your thread it's so interesting.

Do you plan to make pellets and sell them to others on the forum?


----------



## dramaqueen

Light some candles and play some romantic music. lol


----------



## PetMania

Haha, yeah. Don't forget the rose petals ;-)


----------



## logisticsguy

LOL Maybe some Barry White music. I don't know what to do now. Cookie is getting frustrated with him and is now giving him tail slaps after flaring at him. He isn't flaring back and looks intimidated. I just put some bubble wrap under the cup to simulate a bubblenest. Cookie liked it. I was caught talking to my fish again by family who thinks Im nuts. What is crazy about talking to fish? a thai breeder friend says move him to a new spawning tank then add her the next day. I just don't know what to do because Ive never seen it play out like this before.


----------



## MattsBettas

I would leave them in until you're sure it isn't going anywhere, then recondition... Especially him. 

Hopefully they just do it already hahaha. 

So how are the other pairs?


----------



## logisticsguy

It looks like we have some eggs in the Bullwinkle Storm tank but its hard to see so Im not 100% sure. Saturn never got a good wrap on the other tubby tuna Lambchop so they are being reconditioned. Neptune chases Tiki around all the time but she is very fast and stubborn. All the spawns are taking longer than I thought they would. I may steal another boys bubblenest.


----------



## Quinn

Maybe you need to play Musical Tanks, and you haven't given the boys the girls they are really crushing on


----------



## logisticsguy

Quinn said:


> Maybe you need to play Musical Tanks, and you haven't given the boys the girls they are really crushing on


Yes I may need to shake things up. Im going to put another fish next to Cookie/Jupiter later today to get the jealousy thing going. Here are a couple pics of Bullwinkle and Storm today. She has a few fin nips.


----------



## MattsBettas

Looks great! I really hope Jupiter and Cookie breed, they're my favorite pair.


----------



## dramaqueen

I hope Jupiter and Cookie breed, too.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Looks great! I really hope Jupiter and Cookie breed, they're my favorite pair.





dramaqueen said:


> I hope Jupiter and Cookie breed, too.


Yeah I love this pair and they are room mates until we get a spawn. I don't care how long it takes lol. Today Jupiter got some confidence back and was chasing her so that was good to see. Since Storm was out of my sorority all heck broke loose. Hope she can restore calm when she returns.


----------



## Stone

I love cookie, I would love to get my hands on a girl like her to breed with 4 of my males, blizzard would be on top of the list just because of size alone, he is about as long as elvis was just not as beefy, donovan and houdini might have trouble with that big girl, she might beat them up, hendrix my newest giant would be a good match just for his color alone


----------



## logisticsguy

I so wish we lived closer Stone. We could borrow each others fish. I saw a pic of Donovan he is gorgeous. On the lookout for a super size giant boy that's bigger than she is but its been very difficult. All my giant boys are very young and have some growing up to do. If you can would you post pics here of your giants?


----------



## logisticsguy

I thought this video was pretty cool. We have all had a jumping betta so it is important to have a good cover on the tank. This is a very interesting setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkfWg35lgXU#t=184


----------



## redthebetta

Can't use HTML on BF :-(


----------



## logisticsguy

redthebetta said:


> Can't use HTML on BF :-(


Yes I see that. Too bad but I put a link to the video. I wonder why because I use code on other forums.


----------



## cowboy

Is this what they do when they mate?





logisticsguy said:


> Yes I may need to shake things up. Im going to put another fish next to Cookie/Jupiter later today to get the jealousy thing going. Here are a couple pics of Bullwinkle and Storm today. She has a few fin nips.


----------



## MattsBettas

The second pic shows literally the moment (or just before) fertilization happens... They're putting their reproductive organs together while the female drops eggs and the male releases sperm.


----------



## redthebetta

The bottom one is!


----------



## cowboy

I have never seen it before, thanks for the explanation and for not laughing.


----------



## beautiful Betta

Wow I just watched that video, although I do feel the fish was kind of encouraged in the way the water was flowing down into the lower levels kind of following the flow of water. Plus the levels he was in were quite shallow. I wonder if he would have had the same results had the water not been flowing down, and he was in a deeper area of water.


----------



## Stone

Ok here are all of my giants but one, will add him later.. 
here is the smallest giant Harley







Here is Dexter







Here is Donovan







Here is the biggest of them Blizzard







And my newest Hendrix


----------



## MattsBettas

Stone, those all look great. 

CJ, how are the giant fry doing? Any pics?


----------



## dramaqueen

Thanks for the explanation, Matt. Lol


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone your giants are terrific! Thanks for posting them. Blizzard or Donovan would be a great mates for Cookie! Matt the fry are still in a plastic tub and the pics I tried to take are so blurry they are useless. Transfer to growout should be able to get a good pic then.

So the Cookie Jupiter spawn attempt has ended. They have a "lets be friends" thing going on and with no excitement in the relationship separation is needed. Both will be reconditioned for a later try. I moved them to new tanks and both perked up instantly. Jupiter needs to get his "macho" back and as a young male he likely needs a longer courtship period. Ive been reading about some interesting advanced breeding techniques to over come the Lets be Friends problem so Im anxious to try them out. Overall things are good here at the Betta Motel, no sick fish. Im going to put a post up soon for some decent yet very cheap fish as I need some more room for another growout tank. Tonight at the monthly local fish club meeting an interesting topic came up. Altitude. Basically the higher the altitude the lower the oxygen content in water and the fish body. It effects many fish species and one breeder (not betta) said he had trouble spawning his fish after moving here from a coastal city. I live in a city with altitude much like Denver. I want to thank those contributing to this thread. Im lucky to have made some great friends at this forum.


----------



## Stone

Ty guys, the pics really don't do them justice especially harley, I as of yet have not gotten a good pic of him, for some reason the flash on my cam makes the color wrong for them all, Hendrix is actually a deep lavender color, dexter is really more blue than green and so on my vid cam catches the colors far better


----------



## beautiful Betta

Your fish look great, have you tried taking pics turning the flash off?

I love Donovan and Dexter's colouring.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

Just read all of this. Giant's are fascinating to me, and I have a HUGE betta crush on Jupiter. He's like a giant version of Tycho, with richer coloration. Subscribing, because I want to see Jupiter/Cookie babies someday! <3


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks for reading along EvaJupiterSkies. Yes Im hoping for this pair too. Ive spent the last few days getting them reset. Cookie is really ready to spawn. Jupiter was put on a gut loading of bloodworms to get his strength up to peak. Cookie has been floated in his tank everyday for 15 minutes. Tonight she was left in and it appears Jupiter is making an effort to build a nest, if he succeeds a release tomorrow is planned. If he doesnt build one I will steal the amazing nest Jerome has spent so much time working on. Kind of feel like a shoplifter but whatever it takes.

Ugg I felt crappy all day and had to do a bunch of water changes. All my fish got a probiotic dose today I do this once a month. A couple fish just spit it out like wth was that? Most of the fish eat it no problem. When I first started doing this I only gave it to my less important fish. Problem was my less important ones thrived while a few of the better ones passed away a couple months ago. They all get it now that Ive seen enough evidence to be convinced its more beneficial than harmful.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

How do you give your fish probiotics? Is there a type of supplement specifically for that? I admit that my almost-4:30am brain just pictured trying to feed my fish yogurt, and that was much funnier than it should have been.


----------



## Crowntails

I read through the whole journal and I really am hoping for some Cookie/Juniper babies! Good luck with those two.


----------



## logisticsguy

EvaJupiterSkies said:


> How do you give your fish probiotics? Is there a type of supplement specifically for that? I admit that my almost-4:30am brain just pictured trying to feed my fish yogurt, and that was much funnier than it should have been.


The hard part was training them to use a spoon. jk I soak pellets with a few drops of garlic guard just enough to make them soft and sticky. Then I open a capsule of the probiotic. Culturelle is what I like because it has the best strain imo plus 4 others. It has been animal tested on humans  The next step is to sprinkle it on the pellets let it sit for 2minutes. The pellets like to sink fast and some fish will not feed off the bottom. With these fish I pick up the pellet with a qtip and let them feed off it before the sinking. For fry you can make gel cubes and add the probiotic powder just before the gel sets. There are a few commercial probiotics for tropical fish but ive never used them. I doesn't take very much powder to do the job so you can use the leftover capsules yourself. Its good for people too.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

Thanks for the info, logisticsguy! I'll have to keep an eye out for that next time I head out.


----------



## logisticsguy

The stolen bubble nest appears to be a hit. Within 30 seconds Cookie and Jupiter went under it. Jupiter acts like he built it himself. Both are showing good breeding behaviour.


----------



## MattsBettas

I have a good feeling! Keep us updated...


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

logisticsguy said:


> The stolen bubble nest appears to be a hit. Within 30 seconds Cookie and Jupiter went under it. Jupiter acts like he built it himself. Both are showing good breeding behaviour.



Too funny. Good luck Cookie and Jupiter!


----------



## dramaqueen

I hope they spawn!


----------



## beautiful Betta

That's so funny Jupiter acting like he built it himself. Curious though how do you move a bubble nest without it disintegrating?


----------



## dramaqueen

lol That IS funny. Hopefully the deed is done and there are eggs.


----------



## MattsBettas

Did they spawn?


----------



## logisticsguy

Its pretty sad. Cookie sitting under the Styrofoam cup while Jupiter swims around. The stolen nest is gone. He is pretty but he is really shy with the girls it seems. My thai friend says he is young and giant males often mature slower sexually and confidence. Cookie may also seem really big to him. Every once in a while they go under together close but that's as far as it goes. Kinda like Sheldon Cooper and Amy Farrah Fowler.


----------



## logisticsguy

Jupiter seems to blow bubbles constantly but the pop almost instantly. Its like he doesn't have enough spit to make them sticky. Has anyone heard of this before? They flirt but no spawning yet.

Bullwinkle and Lambchop have spawned a huge nest that hatched and starting to free swim. It looks like 100s of Giant HMPK fry this time. Chop was removed yesterday and Bullwinkle doing a fantastic job this time. This pair has it all figured out now.


----------



## Stone

Maybe Jupiter just isn't sexually mature yet, give him a month or 2, it's a shame cookies babies will probably be huge lol


----------



## dramaqueen

Good for Bullwinkle and Lambchop. Are you going to try Cookie and Jupiter again in a few weeks?


----------



## logisticsguy

I think your right Stone, Jupiter just isn't ready yet. He is still young and giants mature slower sexually than regular betta. Bullwinkle is 2 months older and just lately has he matured enough. I may breed Cookie with Bullwinkle while waiting for the other boys to do some growing.


----------



## logisticsguy

dramaqueen said:


> Good for Bullwinkle and Lambchop. Are you going to try Cookie and Jupiter again in a few weeks?


Yes going to try again with that pair because I sure want a spawn from them. Right after X mas will be the plan as I will be busy away for a few days then and don't want to be away at all when the spawn is very young. 

Its very exciting to have the new spawn going and the bbs machine up and running again. I just enjoy raising fry so much!


----------



## Stone

I'll need to shoot another vid but my big giant blizzard apparently has the marbled gene, he is slowly but surely turning solid blue, I will shot a vid in the next day or so and post a link to both vids here, pretty awesome I get to watch him change


----------



## Quinn

Aww Jupiter  Hopefully in a few months he'll be up to speed. 
Bullwinkle's looks really grew on me, I think he's one of my favs, so I'd be happy to see some BullxCookie fry anyway!


----------



## logisticsguy

Crowntails said:


> I read through the whole journal and I really am hoping for some Cookie/Juniper babies! Good luck with those two.


Thanks Crowntails. Going to try them again in about a month. 



Stone said:


> I'll need to shoot another vid but my big giant blizzard apparently has the marbled gene, he is slowly but surely turning solid blue, I will shot a vid in the next day or so and post a link to both vids here, pretty awesome I get to watch him change


Oh that is cool a marble giant. Blizzard is gorgeous it will be neat to see how his colors change. I wish I could find a boy just like him.



Quinn said:


> Aww Jupiter  Hopefully in a few months he'll be up to speed.
> Bullwinkle's looks really grew on me, I think he's one of my favs, so I'd be happy to see some BullxCookie fry anyway!


Bullwinkle is a real character. Very active boy that is so people friendly. He is also in a growth spurt so eats like a pig. Today I removed him from his spawn so he is Mr Grumpypants. He did a fantastic this time with Lambchop. The spawn is just massive way bigger than any spawn Ive had before its just ridiculous. I was so darn happy to see so many teeny tiny fry. Hundreds of them in the tank, there are baby giants everywhere.


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

Ahh, baby giants. Just sounds freaking adorable. So excited for you!


----------



## redthebetta

Just how big are baby giant fry :hmm:? Same size as normal?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes same as normal. Its the growth rate that separates them. I should get 10 -35% giants from the spawn. By about 8-10 weeks it will be clear which ones are giants, the others will be normal size but carry the giant gene.


----------



## summnd

I want giants soo bad..I've been fawning over one in particular from Petco for a few weeks.. & I loooove Cookie!


----------



## logisticsguy

Today was the popular "all you can eat bloodworm buffet" which we do the day after fasting. Im really interested in starting live daphnia cultures in green water. This would give them the varied diet Im looking for to keep them healthy.

Cookie was floated overnight with Bullwinkle and he quickly made a nest. Cookie was flirt swimming so released an hour ago. She gave Bull a vicious tail slap he wasn't expecting so she has his respect. He is a relentless aggressive boy and things look good so far.


----------



## redthebetta

Nice pics!


----------



## Quinn

OMG so cute together! A match made in heaven. I want!


----------



## beautiful Betta

Your pictures are really good, looking at them they will be spawning in no time.
Cookie is a lovely girl, from previous pictures I didn't realize she had light blue scales as well.


----------



## logisticsguy

Today I had a great experience at the lfs. I have been known to be highly critical of many stores in my area regarding the display and care of betta. Just yesterday I saw a post about the Elive betta display and was impressed. Today I went to Pisces Pet and wow they have 3 of them set up. The fish looked terrific in them and had a nice chat with the girl who looks after them. Top notch care at this store and great selection of beauties. I was so impressed. The manager told me it was an investment but it didn't matter if it was a 4$ VT betta or a 1000$ Stingray they wanted all the fish to get the best. Wow! Great attitude and the fish looked just terrific. Here is a pic of the display. They are also very interested in my giants so no worries about finding buyers when the time comes.


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

Damn, that is shiny! Almost makes me wonder what something like that would cost - for purely personal use, haha


----------



## logisticsguy

SorcerersApprentice said:


> Damn, that is shiny! Almost makes me wonder what something like that would cost - for purely personal use, haha


I was thinking that too. It would look great in my house!

Not sure what the cost is but I am sure it is beyond my means right now.


----------



## Hallyx

I don't know what it would be in my house. Maybe a holder for various fruit juices and smoothies. I surely wouldn't put any fish in there. Maybe snails?


----------



## redthebetta

Lol. That's actually a good idea!


----------



## logisticsguy

Im so excited. 3 more giant boys and 4 more Giant girls are on their way at the end of December from a favorite breeder. One of the new boys is very very big. Now I can just pray they make the trip ok.


----------



## Hallyx

I hope some of them are NOT large-pectoral Betta (I hate that elephant ear appellation, along with Dumbo). I really want one of your giants.


----------



## Stone

that display is pretty awesome and I am sure will save many a betta life in the stores where it is in use, but on a sad note if you look at the betta tanks they sell to people, it is the usual betta prisons, can't say that I am shocked.

All of my giants are settled in to their new homes and they are all pretty awesome fish, I can't exactly put a finger on why I like giants so much more then their normal sized cousins I just do, if I had the time/space I wouldn't mind breeding them I know I could probably sell them to people here on bettafish/aquabid/ebay and one or two of the LFS. I still miss Elvis but the new guys are doing a great job on filling in. another 4-5 days I will update my thread on blizzards color changing with another vid he is going to be really stunning, trouble is he will keep pn changing from time to time


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

logisticsguy said:


> Im so excited. 3 more giant boys and 4 more Giant girls are on their way at the end of December from a favorite breeder. One of the new boys is very very big. Now I can just pray they make the trip ok.


Here's hoping they make the trip safely. Can't wait to see pictures


----------



## logisticsguy

Hallyx said:


> I hope some of them are NOT large-pectoral Betta (I hate that elephant ear appellation, along with Dumbo). I really want one of your giants.


I would be so happy to get you one when I have some ready Hallyx. 5 of the new ones are giant hmpk. 2 are giant hm. No EE in this batch. The big one is being referred as a Super giant by the breeder. I asked about what super giant meant and was told he and presumably other thai giant breeders call males over 4.5 inches and females over 4 inches as super giants. None of my boys seem to be able to get a grip around Cookie so hope that the new big guy can do it. I cant believe how much she is still growing. When I got her and Lambchop they were the same size but Chop is dwarfed by her now.


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> that display is pretty awesome and I am sure will save many a betta life in the stores where it is in use, but on a sad note if you look at the betta tanks they sell to people, it is the usual betta prisons, can't say that I am shocked.
> 
> All of my giants are settled in to their new homes and they are all pretty awesome fish, I can't exactly put a finger on why I like giants so much more then their normal sized cousins I just do, if I had the time/space I wouldn't mind breeding them I know I could probably sell them to people here on bettafish/aquabid/ebay and one or two of the LFS. I still miss Elvis but the new guys are doing a great job on filling in. another 4-5 days I will update my thread on blizzards color changing with another vid he is going to be really stunning, trouble is he will keep pn changing from time to time


I cant explain why I like giants so much either Stone. Like you I just do lol. They can really have amazing personalities. Im looking forward to an update on blizzard with that marble gene going on he is quite special because you rarely see marble giants. I like marbles and how much they can change over time.

Its one thing after another for my own health. For 25 yrs I never saw a doctor but the last few years not much luck. yesterday I tore a tendon in my hand/ wrist and may need surgery. You don't realize how much you need both hands in fish keeping, really struggled to do a water change and even had difficulty opening a fish food container. Plus Im on strong pain meds and having a hard time keeping track of what Im doing today.


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

logisticsguy said:


> The big one is being referred as a Super giant by the breeder. I asked about what super giant meant and was told he and presumably other thai giant breeders call males over 4.5 inches and females over 4 inches as super giants.


Those sound like some big fish! Who was the breeder for your new batch of incoming giants?

So sorry to hear about your wrist. You never realize how much you take normal function for granted unless you lose it. Take it easy


----------



## MattsBettas

I've broke both my wrists and someone in my family has ongoing wrist problems, so I definitely understand how your wrists are one of those things that you really take for granted until they're gone. Ugh I am super scared of breaking another arm and having to raise spawns without being able to lift or grip anything. Good luck, hopefully you can avoid surgery.

Post pics of the new fish!


----------



## Elsewhere

I feel your pain, LG. I recently was told I have Tendonitis in the same wrist I had Shingles, so it's just not going too well. I've successfully mastered one handed WC, though! I really hope your wrist gets better!

I agree with Matt! Maybe a photoshoot would make you feel better!


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

Got my wrist looked at today by dad's girlfriend's daughter over Thanksgiving dinner (she's an ER doctor). Did an evaluation, and said it's not sprained, but it's tendonitis! Seems to be a thing lately. 

Anyways, she said take 800mg Motrin or Ibuprofen 3 times a day for a week to get inflammation down, and recommended I use my strongest (but most uncomfortable) brace until the inflammation goes down. I am thankful for small tanks with easy WC's at the moment.


----------



## logisticsguy

Betta keepers = Big hearts and weak wrists. Thanks for the well wishes you guys I appreciate it. Fantastic bunch of friends here 

@ Matt holy cow broke both wrists! Your too young to have that happen again so be careful. Today I realized how weak and uncoordinated my left arm really is. I fell off my ladder putting up Xmas lights like a total klutz  I'm lucky I didn't break my neck. The putting up lights thing has now been passed down to my kids.

@Elsewhere I just want to say how much Ive enjoyed reading your journal. wish you were here to teach me the art of the one handed WC change because it was pitiful today. I had better improve quick because I need to do wc every darn day with so many fish. Once I feel a bit better I plan to do a video of the little betta village in my dining room. 

@Eva Tendonitis can be worse than a sprain imo as it can take forever to get fully healed. I had tendonitis in my elbow from an old sports injury and it hurt for years. Next trip to the doc on Tuesday will determine surgery option. 

@SA Its the same breeder as Cookie. They have the same parents but are from different spawns. Ive seen pics Cookies papa what a big fish that betta. I will try to get some pics up of the new bunch when I can I forgot to save them to my computer. Its cheaper to buy in bulk, even with giant betta. I was told by a respected member here that if I was going to breed giants it would be wise to stock up on them and I clearly see why now.


----------



## Stone

I have neck/back problems from injuries from when I was young and did jack ass kind of stuff those idiots do, plus work and so on, I basically live on pain killers and muscle relaxers, some days I can get away with no meds some days there is not enough meds in the world, but yeah if it is time to do w/c I have to cowboy up and do it, but I will cheat and use a big 20 gal rubbermaid tub and fill that with a hose from the bathtub, condition it, then use a small fountain pump and a hose to pump the water to whichever tank I am filling. which is a bit slower but yeah I won't be gobbling 1/2 my months supply of pills


----------



## Elsewhere

logisticsguy said:


> @Elsewhere I just want to say how much Ive enjoyed reading your journal. wish you were here to teach me the art of the one handed WC change because it was pitiful today. I had better improve quick because I need to do wc every darn day with so many fish. Once I feel a bit better I plan to do a video of the little betta village in my dining room.


Thanks LG, it means a lot! Haha, if only I could make it that far! My cousin lives out there, so you never know, we might just make a trip of it! As far as 1 handed WC, you get used to it. It just takes a lot of placements and patience XD


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

That's awesome, LG. If Cookie's any indication your super giant boy is going to be massive. How exciting! I'm glad you were able to get a bulk buy discount though, those are always nice. 

Take it easy though and definitely try not to overdo it. Are any of your kids interested in helping with fish maintenance? Some of the best memories I have of my dad were bonding over the fish tanks.


----------



## dramaqueen

I have had tendinitis in both wrists. I did anti inflammatories and physical therapy on one and when I had the same problem in the other I went and got a cortisone shot and never had the problem again.


----------



## logisticsguy

Cookie has a little friend. Pumpkin is the largest female from my f2 spawn and is about an average size female. Her and Cookie are the same age.


----------



## Quinn

Wowzers! Both girls are very cute, checking each other out like that. Cookies got such a puppy dog face. Ack


----------



## Mahsfish

CJ I'd just like to say those giants are amazing. Cookie is my fave out of all though. I'm a killer for those fancy marbles. They are so neat. 

And I'd like to say that that betta display thing is pretty cool. I'll have to run by pisces to see it. I haven't been there in a while. Lays time I was there they were all on little shelves and cared for poorly. 

And best of luck to you with breeding a raising the fry. May I say you are doing a great job and I know you're doing the best you can.


----------



## dramaqueen

lol. Cute pics!


----------



## logisticsguy

Mahsfish said:


> CJ I'd just like to say those giants are amazing. Cookie is my fave out of all though. I'm a killer for those fancy marbles. They are so neat.
> 
> And I'd like to say that that betta display thing is pretty cool. I'll have to run by pisces to see it. I haven't been there in a while. Lays time I was there they were all on little shelves and cared for poorly.
> 
> And best of luck to you with breeding a raising the fry. May I say you are doing a great job and I know you're doing the best you can.


Thanks Mah. Yes Cookie is special she is such a character. Im having a terrible time breeding her but will keep trying. Pisces has really improved the betta department, I used to be very critical but the changes are all positive. Ive changed my dose and frequency of probiotics and the fish have never looked better. It seems to allow me to feed quite heavily without any bloating or other problems. So awfully cold out my truck got stuck twice in the last 2 days and digging it out has drained me of energy because I had to shovel with one hand. Working in this weather is miserable.


----------



## Mahsfish

Tell me about it eh CJ. This snow is just causing so many problems. At least it's improving. The first day was the worst. My community was stuck in until we mass a road on the side walk cause a car was snowed in the middle. Thankfully it's cleared now.


----------



## logisticsguy

Poor Saturn is swimming miles picking up falling fry tonight. What a dedicated father he is turning out to be. With any luck they will be free swimming in the next 48 hours. Jupiter is still not nest making yet so that is a little frustrating... patience. he is growing at a crazy rate and has almost caught up to Cookie. His appetite is huge. Bullwinkle and lambchop are in the other spawn tank for another try. This pair ate all the eggs last time overnight the silly dum dums. Try again...


----------



## TruongLN

Update?


----------



## logisticsguy

Sorry for the lack of updates. Work has been crazy as usual just before Christmas, the weather and roads have been terrible and doing work with one good hand had made it even worse. This has left little time for much else and Im behind on fish work. We are not going away for Xmas as planned so the plan is to reset a couple of spawn tanks and hope for the best. 

Jupiter still couldn't build a nest if his life depended on it. He is growing like a weed and I can only hope he eventually makes one. All the fish are doing well and the few fry I have are growing fast. It is apparent that I must cut the tap water for spawning, Ive been lazy and it bit me in the butt. PH at 8.3 with a hardness at almost 300 is not ideal for getting eggs hatched from what I can tell. My tap will be cut 75-25 with ro for the next spawns. Cookie has been conditioning and has a nice little belly. She and Jupiter will get another try over Christmas when I can be home more to keep an eye on them. 

The probiotic study looks really good so far and I can say that probiotics work very well when antibiotics are being used. Antibiotics can destroy the good gut bacteria as well as the bad. It helps to add probiotics right after a round of antibiotics to restore good gut flora and keep the fish immune system working well. Did you know that 500 to 1000 species of bacteria live in the human gut? The average human body consists of about ten trillion cells, but there are ten times that number of microorganisms in the gut making up our micro flora. Factors that disrupt the microorganism population of the large intestine include antibiotics, stress, and parasites. Disruptions can have a major effect on the immune system. Anyways sorry for going on and on about bacteria lol the subject fascinates me.


----------



## Stone

What do you use for giving your bettas probiotics? and I am going to shoot a vid for you to show Jupiter of my itty bitty baby betta "little jimmy" he is all of 3/4 inch long building a bubble nest.


----------



## logisticsguy

Its a crazy situation with Jupiter, Ive tried everything to encourage him to get a nest built. Stone send a video of lil Jimmy I will set up the laptop next to Jupiters spawn tank lol. He is in a tank with Cookie and flares and shows off like mad. Cookie seems to be disinterested because of no nest and a bit frustrated herself. He blows bubbles but they all pop in 5 seconds. 

Ive used a few different methods to get the probiotics in my fish. The easiest way is to thaw a cube of bloodworms, drain the liquid out then add a few drops of garlic guard. Sprinkle the probiotic into the cube, stir and wait 15 minutes. I use 1/3 capsule per bloodworm cube. The probiotic sticks to the worm with garlic guard on it and the gg covers the horrible taste of the probiotic. The probiotics I use are Culturelle or Webber Natural Complete Multi strain also about to try Florastore for the first time. The main probiotic Ive been working with is Lactobacillus rhamnosus. Very safe, almost impossible to overdose and effective. This has been done in commercial fish farms for years to prevent disease and increase growth. I feed a dose to all my fish twice per week replacing a regular meal. Each fish gets 2-4 bloodworms. The results so far show a healthier fish with a better immune function and less bloating or internal issues. Giants can be prone to these problems even more than regular size betta.


http://webbernaturals.com/products/3683/complete-probiotic-multi-strain

http://culturelleprobiotic.ca/?gclid=CJPDuPn3xbsCFUZxQgodfiAAmQ

http://www.florastor.ca/?gclid=COHj2In4xbsCFe1xQgodHkgA0g

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_rhamnosus


----------



## PetMania

I hope he starts building a nest


----------



## dramaqueen

Me, too.


----------



## Hallyx

logisticsguy said:


> Stone send a video of lil Jimmy I will set up the laptop next to Jupiters spawn tank lol.


OMG, Betta porn!!


----------



## logisticsguy

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do! These first timers need a book or video or something to help. I have a few that are pretty clueless about the whole reproductive thing. I was doing a video of my fish spawning once and the wife called me a dirty old fish man.


----------



## dramaqueen

At least it's not as bad as the pic in the TFK off topic area of a kid sitting on Santa's lap giving everyone the finger!


----------



## PetMania

+1


----------



## Syriiven

-peers in-


----------



## summersea

I just read through the journal and find your giants fascinating! I wish I lived in Canada! Ah well - at least I can subscribe and live my giant dreams vicariously through your journal! Love your fish and can't wait to see the babies!


----------



## PetMania

Hallyx said:


> OMG, Betta porn!!


:lol: Laughing so hard right now!


----------



## logisticsguy

The good news is Saturn and Pumpkin have a spawn of week old fry. About 50 little ones that Ive done the 1st water change yesterday. Bullwinkle and Lambchop have a spawn of 3 thanks to egg/fry eating that are about 3 weeks old growing at an amazing rate. Snap is just like his Dad very aggressive and already color, Crackle and Pop look to be females. I will grow out this small group as breeders. 

Lambchop died unexpectedly in the spawn tank suddenly and without reason other than stress, no bites or trauma, very strange and despite my efforts to protect the females as much as possible. Jupiter is conditioning with a regular size female in hopes he can build a nest. 

Just finished doing a huge wc on all my tanks and a good cleaning too, huge job. Cookie is fat fat fat with eggs so hope Bullwinkle can get her wrapped up this time. Its nice to have some fry to raise it is my favorite part of betta keeping. I will try to get pics up tonight of the fry and parents.


----------



## Quinn

Oh no, so sorry about Lambchop. It sucks it sounds like the stress of breeding really does in the females. So unfortunate... Such delicate fish. 
Glad you have some fry right now! Can't wait to see them.
Fingers crossed that the Cookie Monster breeds too. I saw a cute lil giant girl who sort reminded me of Cookie on AB the other day. Was sooo tempted.


----------



## logisticsguy

Yeah I was pretty crushed when Chop died, its hard when you don't know where you went wrong. I did see an ab girl like cookie too is this the one? I think she is gorgeous and may bid on her.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1389187841


----------



## Quinn

She was one of them! I actually saw two, the other ones auction ended. Not sure if she sold or not. 
I really want a(some) giant(s).
I'm totally trying to figure out how I could fit more tanks...


----------



## BettaLover1313

Very sorry to hear about Lambchop, but glad that you have some fry from her and Bullwinkle.


----------



## logisticsguy

Quinn said:


> She was one of them! I actually saw two, the other ones auction ended. Not sure if she sold or not.
> I really want a(some) giant(s).
> I'm totally trying to figure out how I could fit more tanks...


Yeah I understand the space issue my family wont give up another inch so I look for new ways to cram more tanks into what space I have. Every giant needs at least a 10g tank imo and it has been recommended to me that 20g is much better. It makes sense in a way because a giant can weigh 4-6 times more than a regular size betta. Cookie and Bullwinkle are large enough that they make a 10g look kind of small.



BettaLover1313 said:


> Very sorry to hear about Lambchop, but glad that you have some fry from her and Bullwinkle.


Thanks I only got 3 fry from her but glad to have something. At the time I realized only 3 fry didn't get eaten I considered not doing a spawn of only 3 because its a lot of work to raise a spawn. Smallest spawn ever lol. Triplets but they are cute and the smaller the spawn the faster they grow from what I can tell, or the giant gene kicked in already not sure.


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is Snap Krackle and Pop. Dad is Bullwinkle Mom is/was Lambchop. I took the pics through the plastic tub which makes for terrible pics it seems. In about a week they will be moved out of the tub and into a 10g so I hope for better pics then.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy

This is Saturn and Pumpkins week old babys. Cheap camera did not want to focus on these tiny ones very well.




























Saturn looks totally bummed out since he was pulled from the spawn. He did a great job and got an all you can eat bloodworm buffet.


----------



## MattsBettas

Awesome, CJ. Very nice. Can't wait to watch them grow.


----------



## Quinn

S,K,&P are so cute! Love the name theme for those 3 too hehe. How old are those 3?
Which fishy is Pumpkin?


Just saw this giant guy on AB








His lipstick cracks me up, so cute. I think he needs a FABULOUS drag name, hehehe.


----------



## logisticsguy

That is a gorgeous fish Quinn. I may have to bid on that one. Here is a pic of Pumpkin. She is an f2 girl from a spawn of mine. With this spawn the fry get marble gene from her and EE as well as giant gene from Saturn. Pumpkin has a lot of the personality traits that remind me of her mom and grandma who are 2 of my favorite fish ever. You can see she got a bad fin nip during breeding.


----------



## logisticsguy

Cookie is chubby from being conditioned. I was moving her back to her tank when she leaped out of the jar flew 2 feet through the air and landed in her own tank unharmed. Freaked me out she must have wanted back to her tank badly. She is a crazy strong girl to leap as far she did. Bullwinkle got a taste of her power when she tail slapped him, he isn't so quick to bully Cookie anymore.


----------



## Quinn

HAH! OMG crazy Cookie Monster! Must have given you quite the scare. Such a gorgeous HUGE girl.
Pumpkin is quite cute, she has a very sweet looking face/eyes. I hope you get more of that great personality in her spawn 

I thought he was quite a nice fish as well, though I know nothing about standards in terms of form and such for fish. He definitely stands out though!
If I could just find something that would work as a stand, with closed storage, that is cheap enough and fit my space I don't think I'd have issue setting up another tank or two for some giant love. Alas, that is a tricky task. Why is water so heavy!!


----------



## dramaqueen

OMG! lol I bet it scared you to death! It's a good thing she landed in her tank unharmed. She's beautiful.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Awesome, CJ. Very nice. Can't wait to watch them grow.


Thanks Matt. Its fun to have some babies around and this small bunch is growing quickly.



dramaqueen said:


> OMG! lol I bet it scared you to death! It's a good thing she landed in her tank unharmed. She's beautiful.


It happened so fast. Ive never seen Cookie jump out of the water before so I was shocked. She must have been aiming for her own tank (which fortunately had the lid off) because she couldnt have landed more perfectly. I will be more careful next time. Im way too attached to Cookie lol. she is still growing. With the death of Lambchop in a spawn tank Im very worried about breeding her but it must be done. Now if my boys would just show more interest in building a good nest.


----------



## Fenghuang

Cookie looks like my koi boy. Except with funkier colours and, of course, so much bigger. Awesome. And that is such a funny story. I had a fish take a leap out of his cup during a water change. I was holding him over his tank. And he _still_ missed.


----------



## Stone

so sorry about lambchop, losing any of our fish always sucks,I am glad to see you did get some fry from her and others, and sounds like cookie needs a male like blizzard, he is probably the most aggressive betta I have ever owned,I have tried tank mates for him of ramshorns snails, yep he killed them within 3 hours, ghost shrimp, can you say blizzard snack? I put some mysterysnails in with him yeah th one that was a bit bigger than pea sized got eaten the one as big as a shooter marble is still alive, I am going to guess no roomates for him, I am getting some Betta albimarginata and am busily getting their 20 long ready


----------



## logisticsguy

It would be great if we could get Cookie and Blizzard together wish you lived closer Stone. It seems that a lot of my friends are into wilds. I may get a tank going with betta mahachinis in the spring. The wild betta threads fascinate me. 

Good day here. All fish look pretty good and 2 spawn tubs ready to go tomorrow.

Im just about done the probiotic study and working on a what I hope to be an epic post on the subject. It could save a lot of fish the goal is to make it educational maybe show everyone how and why they work. Many common betta fish issues can be prevented before they start.


----------



## Hallyx

You have a lot of fans who are looking forward to that.


----------



## MattsBettas

I think a mahachaiensis tank is a great idea. But that's me talking. A big bonus is that they are one of a few wilds that don't actually mind hard hard water. Where would you get them from? 

Looking forward to the probiotics post.


----------



## Hallyx

I've seen quite a few lately on AB.... males and females.


----------



## logisticsguy

It took most of the day to do wc on all my tanks. Good lord I must have dumped over 100g of water today. Trying a new fly larvae product wow do my fish love it. Its supposed to be good for conditioning so hope it helps long term. 

We had 3 females removed from the sorority to show off for the boys, hope was to encourage nest building. When returned to the sorority WW3 broke out. Fighting fish indeed. Angry Bird decided she was the Alpha now and challenged former alpha Storm. Well AB is now hiding after getting her butt kicked. Amazing how much the girls can go at it. 

Here are a few pics today of the Saturn/ Pumpkin spawn now almost 3 weeks old. I so wanted a dslr camera for Christmas but it was not to be and my cell camera just cant focus very well.


----------



## Hallyx

New fly larvae product ???


----------



## TruongLN

Beautiful fry CJ, I'm going to have to call dibs on a male when they've grown up!


----------



## logisticsguy

Hallyx said:


> New fly larvae product ???


Well new to me for sure lol. My friend sent me up 10 containers from the States as I couldn't find a local supplier. It looks to be very good for conditioning and is a nice addition to the diet to help keep the finicky fish guts of my giants nice and regular. Very similar to what betta would eat in the natural environment. Made from housefly larvae blech but parasite free.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/NutriDiet_FlyLarvae.html


----------



## logisticsguy

TruongLN said:


> Beautiful fry CJ, I'm going to have to call dibs on a male when they've grown up!


You got one Truong. They wont be ready to leave for a couple months yet but Id love for you to get one.

Today the 3 amigos fry was moved from their tank to a 10g that is much more easily photographed. These little giants are crazy hyper active and always hungry. Hope to have more pics of them this weekend. I just love these guys they never stop chasing and playing around. Ive learned that small spawns are not so bad after all.


----------



## TruongLN

I'm so excited for them to grow and get their colour! So excited.


----------



## logisticsguy

We moved the giant fry into their grow out so its much easier to see them now. Im so happy how active and smart they are.  We took some pics but it was hard they never stop for long. They started eating NLS grow and frozen spirolina brine ship this week.


----------



## TruongLN

The colours are so awesome !!! I can't wait!!
Do you have any favourites from this spawn yet??


----------



## BettaLover1313

Lovely fry!


----------



## logisticsguy

TruongLN said:


> The colours are so awesome !!! I can't wait!!
> Do you have any favourites from this spawn yet??


Yes I do have a favorite. Snap is amazing what a character he is. So much energy and he is very big boy for his age. He also shows signs of being a true giant, has the grumpy old man face familiar to giants and the fast growth rate. I havnt used any power grow techniques with any fry from the spawns. Ive only changed water 5 times since the fry were spawned and no power feeding. The use of probiotics with the fry may be speeding the growth and they are a very healthy bunch thankfully. 



BettaLover1313 said:


> Lovely fry!


Thanks BettaLover. We just had another spawn hatch and start free swimming so things starting to look good here. Cookie is next up with my most prolific boy Saturn who is a terrific father and has the spawning stuff all figured out. if any of my males can do it he is the one. Will be trying them together next week.


----------



## Stone

Those are some nice looking fry,I have been lagging behind of keeping active here and my other forums as I have been busily do all that I can to shame sea world and trying to free lolita the orca and vocing my opinions on all the things japan is doing, I am going to wear out my keyboard I have been doing petitions and sending emails all over the place, but I need to do an update on blizzard and my giants soon, I am really interested in seeing cookies spawn when it happens


----------



## TruongLN

Remind me again the parents of this spawn?


----------



## logisticsguy

TruongLN said:


> Remind me again the parents of this spawn?


The older spawn with Snap Krackle and Pop is 7 weeks old and parents are Saturn a purple Giant HMEE long fin with Lambchop a Giant Green HMPK. Im not really sure if you should breed HMPK with HM long fin but whats done is done. Snap is all long fin and the others look more PK.

My apologies for not updating more often a lot going on lately. I finally got word I can talk about conclusions for my little probiotic study but no details in numbers no big deal I will get that out soon. 

Giant males can be a pita to breed. Terrible nesters, egg eaters and sloppy sobs, clumsy at wraps the whole nine yards. Females not much better. More stock coming in soon so always trying to be optimistic here.


----------



## logisticsguy

Today im going to pic spam the thread a little with photos of my tanks and a few of the little giants. Im out of room and have fish on the floor uggh.

Row 1









Row 2









Row 3


















Community tank 35g









Kips 5g tank









Sorority tank 55g









Side by side 10g tanks









Growout tub 1









Growout tank 1


















Cookies House 10g









Endos 5g tank









The Dining room. No wonder the wife is fed up me. The kids gotta move out someday.









The little giants 10g tank



























Fonzi 5g tank










Spawn tank 2


----------



## beautiful Betta

loads of tanks. I find it funny you took all those close up pictures of individual tanks and yet there wasn't a fish in sight in a lot of them. I think they are hiding from you thinking here we go again, I want a break. lol


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes it was a rare opportunity for me to get some pics without all the fish. We power cleaned the tanks and had about 60 unhappy fish cupped on the kitchen table. I have zero tank decorating skills so wife is going to help me out this weekend. I made the mistake of leaving only 2 females in the 55g sorority tank while we went to the store. When I got back the 2 normally mellow girls were in a fight to the death. A mother vs her daughter!! When the rest of the females were put back in the fight settled down but a new battle to be tank Alpha girl continues. Such a peaceful sorority for 18 months now its just silly.


----------



## TruongLN

YAY Nenshi!
The babies are looking so cute! I feel like I may get to the point where I've got tanks full of bettas everywhere myself!


----------



## logisticsguy

I swear bettas can be just as addictive as crack. Yes Nenshi is a very good guy (met him once what a nice guy) and excellent mayor. Every time I see Toronto mayor Ford it reminds me how lucky we are. Hey I used crack and Rob Ford in the same paragraph ;-)


----------



## logisticsguy

Tonight we combined 2 sororities into the big tank and watched as WW3 broke out. In the end 4 girls had to be floated in cups. We have sold quite a few girls lately so keeping 2 small sororities was impractical but we may end regretting doing it. They had better settle down it was ridiculous behaviour for a normally mellow group.

A new giant boy will be on his way that I really like and set up a new 10g tank already for him. The little giants are starting to grow super fast but Snaps fins are imo too long and weigh him down a little but very active and healthy. Monster appetites they are lil pigs but lots of fun to watch.


----------



## beautiful Betta

They are all looking really good.


----------



## Quinn

So goo to see updates again! The babies look fantastic. I hope your sorority settles down. Yikes. And that those giants bone up on their loving skills -no pun intended


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Quinn and beautiful Betta they are starting to color up and loved the frozen spirolina brine shrimp for supper tonight. Things in the sorority have settled down a fair amount with Pumpkin coming out on top as alpha. Now can we all just get along please ladies. The new giant is being shipped today from Thailand yay so I will be worried the whole time until he gets here. My transhipper sent last shipment via air and hope to do the same thing this time. Much safer and faster but slightly more expensive. Well worth it imo because its just so cold out right now. Nothing gets me down quicker than a beauty fish DOA.


----------



## beautiful Betta

That boy is stunning fingers crossed for you and him that he arrives safely.
Will look forward to seeing some pictures when you get him settled in his tank.


----------



## Quinn

Oh I saw that boy! Gorgeous. There were a few from smilebetta I was crushing on before. Hope he arrives safely!


----------



## TruongLN

The girl in the last photo is sooooooo cute!!!!!
Your new giant is magnificent, do you plan on breeding him?
I don't know if this is just me but I LOVE bettas with puffy looking ventrals. Something about the look really attracts me.


----------



## rylovesriska

They all look SO good makes me want a giant


----------



## DBanana

That many tanks is what I want, but the hub is really opposed. One day.


----------



## MattsBettas

The fish come in yet, CJ?


----------



## ynahanson

Very pretty. New Giant


----------



## logisticsguy

We just picked him up from the airport. Hung did a good job packing this time. He is in his new tank still in the bag acclimating. Going to go slow. His shipping water is so brown. Im not sure if its IAL it looks different, maybe a tea? Very hard to see his color in this water. At least he is alive yay! Here is the bag in the tank I will try to get some better pics after he is acclimated and comfortable. Its so stressful opening the box for me these days maybe Im mentally scarred from the previous DOAs. Im very excited. Ive been meeting so many betta keepers from Calgary lately it is very a thriving community of fish nuts here.


----------



## logisticsguy

I just finished the last post and went downstairs to check on him. He was not in the bag anymore. I had cut a small hole in the top to add a tiny bit of tank water and he must have leaped out. Found him behind the sponge filter. These fish are going to give me a heart attack some day. So much for the super slow acclimation.


----------



## DBanana

My white girl jumped out of the acclimating water when I tried to net her. I ended up having to scrape her off the tank cover with my fingers into my other hand. They want us to die from heart attack.


----------



## ynahanson

that is really nice! I want to buy babies


----------



## beautiful Betta

He looks well cant wait to see some pictures. I did post on the AB thread too, but I think Houdini comes to mind for a name, lol.


----------



## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> He looks well cant wait to see some pictures. I did post on the AB thread too, but I think Houdini comes to mind for a name, lol.


I like it! Houdini it is.



ynahanson said:


> that is really nice! I want to buy babies


The hope is to have giants for sale in late Spring and you could stop in and pick one hopefully.



DBanana said:


> My white girl jumped out of the acclimating water when I tried to net her. I ended up having to scrape her off the tank cover with my fingers into my other hand. They want us to die from heart attack.


They are a bunch of leapers this species. Siamese Flying Fish. Im more careful about my tank covers these days because they are more athletic than you would think. Ive lost 2 leapers in the past. Then you have Cookie who thinks she is small and gets stuck behind heaters and filters. She almost drowned once. Yes my fish almost drowned seems silly doesn't it.


----------



## beautiful Betta

logisticsguy said:


> They are a bunch of leapers this species. Siamese Flying Fish. Im more careful about my tank covers these days because they are more athletic than you would think. Ive lost 2 leapers in the past. Then you have Cookie who thinks she is small and gets stuck behind heaters and filters. She almost drowned once. Yes my fish almost drowned seems silly doesn't it.


I explained that once to someone else that they can drown they were shocked to hear that, but is a strange concept to grasp if you are new to betta's and don't understand them at all as a unique fish.


----------



## DBanana

logisticsguy said:


> I like it! Houdini it is.
> 
> They are a bunch of leapers this species. Siamese Flying Fish. Im more careful about my tank covers these days because they are more athletic than you would think. Ive lost 2 leapers in the past. Then you have Cookie who thinks she is small and gets stuck behind heaters and filters. She almost drowned once. Yes my fish almost drowned seems silly doesn't it.


I've got a full cover for just that reason, thankfully. Just enough room out in the back of it to stick the filter and heater in, so no gaps. Hub's grandmaman just lost a betta to leaping (though she was keeping it in a bowl).


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha you think splendens leap? I have to warn people new to wilds not to leave any gaps over the tops of their tanks . It's like they can teleport themselves through cling wrap and end up on the floor metres away from their tank. 

Glad to hear that your male arrived safe and well. He certainly looks like hefty! Lucky he decided to escape into the tank rather than out of it.


----------



## TruongLN

He's wonderful CJ!! I can't wait to see more photos. Looks like he was just too eager to be in his new home :3


----------



## beautiful Betta

yea how is he doing after his great escape, I hope it hasn't caused him any problems.


----------



## logisticsguy

I just checked on him. His purple is a still a little pale which is too be expected but swimming around very happily until he noticed his reflection and went a bit crazy. He is not huge yet but a vey good size for only 14 weeks old. He does have some growing to do before he could be bred with Cookie. We may have to start out with a smaller girl first. There is a small mark by his eye that's in the aquabid photo but it looks ok and healing. Houdini will get his 14 day qt and a fish bath tomorrow. Poor guy does not know what a pellet is yet so he snacked on a couple bloodworms. Back soon I will see if I can get a decent cellphone pic and its feed time for the fry too just remembered lol.


----------



## beautiful Betta

That's good to hear he's doing ok, you must have your work cut out, what with raising fry and introducing and quarantining Houdini.


----------



## MattsBettas

Very happy to hear he arrived ok, CJ! Good luck breeding him!


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Matt I need some luck and think he would mix so nice with your line.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy

So the IBC convention is June 25th in Monteray Bay. Ive just about got the wife on board to make the trip for a holiday and maybe bring a few fish along.


----------



## beautiful Betta

your boy is looking great, you wouldn't think he has just been shipped over from Thailand.


----------



## TruongLN

He looks phenominal CJ. I love him.


----------



## logisticsguy

Houdini has settled in nicely and although he still cant figure out that the pellets are food thing he happily munches on frozen spirolina brine shrimp. This morning he has a bubble nest going in his tank. Pumpkin (female) is next to him and the flaring sessions are epic he goes nuts. 

One of my boys was on deaths door 2 days ago. He was faded laying at the bottom looked awful. Euthanasia was considered. As a last ditch effort I added a strong dose of Paraguard to the hospital tank. When I checked on him this morning I expected him to be dead. I was shocked to see him in perfect shape. He had color, swimming with glee and couldn't look better. Crazy. Its good to have some luck sometimes but this was the most amazing recover Ive seen here ever. 

The 3 amigos spawn are growing at an astonishing rate. 8 weeks old and as almost as large as my regular size betta. This group has endless energy and the probiotics certainly have made an impact on the health and growth rate of this spawn imo.


----------



## logisticsguy

I want to apologize to everyone for not getting back to you. The last week was spent in the hospital. I have severe blood poisoning and feel awful. Sorry for not answering my pms I have to go back to the hospital tonight.


----------



## Mahsfish

Hey no problem. We all completley understand. Get better soon.


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

Goodness, that's terrible. I hope you're okay. Sending good thoughts your way for a speedy recover!


----------



## MattsBettas

Get better soon, CJ. Take as much time as you need, we all understand.


----------



## beautiful Betta

Oh my gosh, don't worry about responses, everyone is still here, lol. wishing you a speedy recovery, and take it easy for a few days.


----------



## TruongLN

Get well soon CJ!!


----------



## ynahanson

Get better soon!


----------



## Hallyx

Take good care of yourself, TJ.


----------



## MattsBettas

How have you been doing, CJ?


----------



## logisticsguy

Hey Matt. This has been one tough week. I finally got off my IV today. Blood poisoning is rotten and my kidneys started to shut down, very very painful. Now I understand how uncomfortable a fish with dropsy must be. My fish area is so behind in care hope maybe to get working on it tomorrow. Thankfully I didn't lose any fish so far. Im sad because I had just started a spawn with Houdini and Pumpkin when I got sick and lost the spawn.


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## MattsBettas

That's a shame. I'm glad you're off your IV and are ok though, that's what I was hoping, and really all that matters. 

If I lived closer I would've taken care of your fish, if you wanted me to.


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## beautiful Betta

The main thing is that you are ok, the fish will breed again, it was a shame you lost them, but you couldn't help your circumstances. And don't over do it with the fish when you get home. You need to look after yourself first.


----------



## Mahsfish

Good to hear you are doing better... from what I understand. Like others said, fish will still be there when you are back, and will breed again. Just focus on getting yourself better. Goodluck


----------



## Hallyx

+1^ all above, CJ.


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## logisticsguy

Thanks you guys I really appreciate the well wishes. 

We got some fish work done today so I feel better about the state of the tanks. The 3 amigos are a terror. The 2 females are going to be the base of all my spawns this year. Krackle and Pop are the best girls Ive produced. At 8 weeks they are the size of a regular betta and have a crazy amount of energy. It will take a couple months before they are mature enough but looking forward to spawning them. 

So Ive been waiting for a large check from a company Ive done work with for years. A few months ago It became hard to get my invoices paid in a timely manner. Today I was notified they filed for bankruptcy leaving me with a 9,000 dollar invoice likely to never be paid. Im not a rich guy and this hurts really bad. What next? 

Here is a pic of Pop today.


----------



## beautiful Betta

Glad you are feeling better, that sucks about the pay check, unfortunately it happens all the time. Your girl looks great.


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## logisticsguy

Thanks. Yes this happens way too often and especially bad in the logistics transportation business.


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## Mahsfish

Sorry to hear that. I dont know what to tell you as I'm still young and haven't had to deal with any of this. Only thing I have to pay for is my fish. Off money I make from breeding my fish. No taxes or anything. 
Best of luck cj.


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## TruongLN

Glad that you're feeling better 
I hope you get that money as soon as possible.
Pop is GORGEOUS! I love her colours.


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## logisticsguy

Here are some pics of the Saturn x Pumpkin spawn. No giants here lol they are kinda small but do carry the EE and giant gene. All the fish seem fairly healthy except cookie monster who has started piping and has a gill issue. Ive reconditioned Houdini and Pumpkin for another spawn attempt in the next few days.

Im feeling better every day and almost caught up in the fish department. Congrats to my friends lilnaugrim and mattsbettas becoming ref team members. Excellent people and very knowledgeable fish keepers. I think I should clean the glass before taking pics geez.


----------



## PetMania

So glad you are feeling better! =)


----------



## beautiful Betta

You have so lovely looking fish in that spawn. Glad to hear you are feeling so much better.


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## logisticsguy

Thanks bb and Petmania. Im hoping this pair works out.


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## beautiful Betta

It certainly looks like the girl is full of eggs. And Houdini is aware of her.


----------



## Quinn

So glad you are doing well! I've been a little MIA but just caught up. I hope miss Cookie can get back on her feet (err.. fins) again as well. I still reeeeally hope you can gets spawn from her eventually.
Your current spawns look lovely.


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## MattsBettas

Really glad you're feeling better, CJ. Hopefully you can get that pair to breed (Houdini is definitely one of, if not the nicest giant I have ever seen), and I _really_ hope you an get. Okie better- she's one of my favorite fish of yours!


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Matt. I really love the cookie monster so Ive been doing a lot of research on gill issues and getting together a solid treatment plan for her. Pumpkin was released last night. What a show Houdina put on for her. Today they are flirting and chasing each other around while he *perfects* his nest. The little funny looking orange fry in the pics above is likely going to xnoodle. Perfect baby betta for them I think, what a character that little stinker. Good to see you Quinn! Going to do my best to fix Cookie up. Honestly this can be a frustrating hobby sometimes but where else can you find a hobby that involves complex water chemistry, a myriad of difficult to diagnose diseases, amazing genetic variations and deep ethical dilemmas all rolled into one.


----------



## MattsBettas

Funny orange fry... The one in pic number four? 

Looking at those fry makes me rethink moving away from splendens...


----------



## PetMania

Your pair looks very promising. I love their colouring.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Funny orange fry... The one in pic number four?
> 
> Looking at those fry makes me rethink moving away from splendens...


Yeah number 4. Its a tiny but crazy little fish. I hope you don't move too far away from splendens because I want you to get a couple fry from this Houdini spawn 

Thanks Petmania Im excited to see how the fry might turn out.


----------



## BettaLover1313

Glad that you're feeling better! Houdini is such an awesome looking Giant, I'm glad to hear that he's showing off for Pumpkin. I hope Cookie gets to feeling better as well.


----------



## TruongLN

They're looking great CJ!
I'm glad to hear they carry the EE gene, I'm going EE mad. I want to try breeding them.


----------



## logisticsguy

Yay they are starting to spawn. Clumsy but they are trying at least. Way too many unferts being munched on but hope they get better. Looks like some eggs made it to the nest.


----------



## TruongLN

I'm too excited for this spawn! Pumpkin is such a sweetheart!


----------



## Mahsfish

Wow. CJ I swear you breed bettas with ease haha. Congrats on the spawn. Hopefully the eggs hatch and develope nicely.


----------



## logisticsguy

Mahsfish said:


> Wow. CJ I swear you breed bettas with ease haha. Congrats on the spawn. Hopefully the eggs hatch and develope nicely.


Thanks. However I have had so many problems in the last year its unreal. Ive had males that ate all the eggs, others would or could not make a nest, others abandon nest immediately, eggs that got bacteria or would not hatch in our high ph, gh, kh water. I have changed how I do things a little and learned much dealing with the diseases and issues that are inevitable as ones learns the betta breeding craft. Don't ever let anyone tell you that betta breeding is easy or simple. At my first fish club meeting when asked what fish I worked with I told them betta. Some acted like I was a rookie or newb to fish. After a couple weeks it dawned on me that the dudes looking down on me actually knew way LESS about fish keeping than I did. Starter fish my arse!!


----------



## Mahsfish

That sucks. Well congrats and let's hope they hatch 

And off topic but I gave in and just bought a male halfmoon /delta. Couldn't fully tell as I didn't have a mirror or anything to make home fully flare up. He's a cello marble. Don't think I'll breed him, well maybe, he looks pretty young though. Thought he might be cool tho to keep and see him marble up.


----------



## logisticsguy

So this is what blood poisoning looks like on a ugly old man. If you ever see something like this on a friend or parent get to a hospital quick. I was stubborn and stupid and almost died. This is what it looks like now and its gotten way better in last few days. Sorry to gross anyone out lol but its my thread. I got to share in good discussions about antibiotics and probiotics with doctors and nurses so that was the only plus.


----------



## Mahsfish

Okay haha. And well at least youre getting better now.


----------



## logisticsguy

Mahsfish said:


> That sucks. Well congrats and let's hope they hatch
> 
> And off topic but I gave in and just bought a male halfmoon /delta. Couldn't fully tell as I didn't have a mirror or anything to make home fully flare up. He's a cello marble. Don't think I'll breed him, well maybe, he looks pretty young though. Thought he might be cool tho to keep and see him marble up.


Cool. You should post a pic of him. Did you get him from a store? Im always interested in cello marbles.


----------



## Mahsfish

Yeah got him from petland for $15. Little high but hey its just money right. Haha jokes, little steep but I had my 5 gal open for him so why not. 

Ill post pics once he's setlled in. I have him floating in a container getting the temps the same to acclimate him. He's kinda cello/white with a bit of irids. And then a bit of red on some fins and some grey black coming in. Hoping he marbles up nicely. He reminded me a bit of your fish from f1 like chuck who went like cello with the black and red. Except my guy ain't as nice haha.


----------



## Mahsfish

It is honestly impossible to get pics of this guy. He's really active and won't stop pacing around the tank. But I got one okay shot of him while he was swimming so his fins are down. He is a delta so I don't think I'll breed him even though he is young. Just not good enough quality. Nice pet though. Whe/if I get monty off you CJ I'll probably divide this tank up and have them split it.


----------



## logisticsguy

I think he is a pretty good looking fish Mah. He isn't terrible for a pet store fish. Its good sign that he is really active. He will make a good tank buddy for Monty.


----------



## Mahsfish

Thanks. I thinkhes just exploring a lot. Maybe once he's done he'll settle down a bit and I can get a flaring pic. 

I know I asked for a pic of monty flaring. Well I dont blame you if you can. I understand how hard it is now haha.


----------



## Mahsfish

If I can find a female with a really good spread I might consider breeding him. I just don't want to get a lot of deltas.


----------



## logisticsguy

Such a long crappy winter here. Im so sick of it!


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## Mahsfish

^ haha


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## Mahsfish

Let's just hope there isn't still snow on th ground in a few weeks when easter comes around.


----------



## Mahsfish

Sorry this is irrelevant to the giants. Just thought I'd share a couple pics with you CJ and the others if they care. Of my new boy. I guess he's happy because he's got a decent sized nest going right now. Here's some pics. 

I'll probably start posting in my journal again that way I'm not stealing yours. If I think I'm going to me sharing more about my fish here in the next week or so.


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## logisticsguy

You know his form and fins are not too bad Mah. I would consider breeding him for sure. Oh don't worry about posting in this journal at all. More the better. We all love seeing pics of betta fish. Very impressive nest builder you have, a couple of my boys could use his construction skills.


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## Mahsfish

Yea I think I am going going to try. He looks better now than before, as in the pet store I'm his container Ihe didn't look as nice. But I think if I can find a hm female I will try one he bulks up a bit.


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## Mahsfish

Yea I think I might try if I can find my self a nice hm female. I don't really want to start shipping fish over just yet. Maybe once I have more experience. 

He looked a little worse like all bettas do it petshot containers. But yea I don't think he's too bad only thing is his spread as he is delta but I don't mind a ton. 

So once I can find a female. And get this guy bulked up a bit I think I might go for it.


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## Mahsfish

Okay last pic for a while. I promise


----------



## logisticsguy

My goodness I may have to rethink my membership in the IBC. Sadly it has become very political and often negative. It reminds me of the dog show world and the snooty politics that go along with these things. The current nasty email string on my phone really disappoints me. Is it worth it? Not sure at this point.


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## haveyouhadyourteayet

Leave it up to people to ruin a good thing...


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## beautiful Betta

What a tease, what did it say, lol


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Honestly, that is why I am not a member of any club no matter how much people want me to join. 

I find that clubs get very political/cliquey. My mum's dog club and my grandfather's fishing club were exactly the same, and I've seen and heard some things about the IBC and the betta clubs here in Oz that put me right off joining. 

I find if you get people at the core of the group that foster a negative attitude, it has an affect on the whole group. It's sad really.


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## logisticsguy

Ive come to a conclusion about my tap water. A super high ph like mine 8.2-8.4 is far from ideal for this species. Most people here breed Lake Malawi cichlids with great success. The high ph wont kill the fish directly but stress's them which leaves an opening for disease or illness. To make it even worse the water is wicked hard and almost impossible for solutions like driftwood, ial ect. to be work the ph down. Its just too stable. Chemical ph down products have not worked well either, just too much chemical volatility and ph swings. Another observation is that with a high ph the betta fish can have a more difficult time excreting internal ammonia.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1546509801200053

This all leads to a shorter lifespan, higher mortality rate and betta keepers that blame themselves and wondering what disease got em this time. The ph scale is a bit like the earthquake scale. Each point is a factor of 10. A ph of 8.2 is 10x higher than 8.1. So my ph of 8.3 is 10,000x harder than 7.8. Or something like that (math)?. 

Conclusion. I need an RO system to de stress my fish and more importantly myself. You can keep betta in tap water here but expect more problems with your fish. Also eggs tend to have a far lower hatch rate in these high ph,gh kh conditions.


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## Hallyx

It's said that Betta "adapt" to high pH. That's just what we tell new keepers to forestall their starting on a frustrating and dangerous pH chase. More accurately, they tolerate high pH better than some other species. And some Betta tolerate it better than others.

I've heard it said that Betta raised in higher pH will tolerate it better. But, even then, they've never evolved to live in high-pH conditions, and I think they haven't had enough generations raised in high-pH to "evolve."

I hadn't heard that high-pH effects digestion, and nothing in that article suggests a condition where than\t might be true. Regardless of pH, a cycled tank has 0.0ppm ammonia. So whatever deleterious conditions might be exacerbated by high pH, I'm not convinced that ammonia-fostered problems are that serious. Rather, I suspect that the extra energy required to maintain an internal pH balance, and to process minerals in hard water eventually takes it's toll on Betta.

I also wonder if Anabantids might be less subject to ammonia problems because they don't rely as heavily on their gills.


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## MattsBettas

Do you guys have ammonia in your water too? Ours reads at 0.50ppm out of the tap, along with our pH of 8.2... 

I've decided not to get any more soft water loving wilds (which is most of them, but simplex, mahachaiensis, etc don't mind it) until I can get an ro system, which will probably be a while. 

Just another reason I'm looking into other species.


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## logisticsguy

@Hallyx Its an interesting discussion. Ive noticed that my fry raised in these water conditions do fare better than imports. I do think the high ph does create stress and has an effect on a fish immune system. 

@Matt Yes my tap runs the same ammonia. Its not just me either a few other betta breeders around here have had problems as well that don't correspond to a lack of care. 

Ok I have an admission. I have used aq salt in my water for a couple months now. I use it at therapeutic dose level. 1 tsp per 5 gallons. It helps fight bacteria such as finrot, velvet, ich columnaris ect. Ive had better results since starting this routine. No negative effects so far. Its not just me, ive followed advice from a respected betta keeper, president of the IBC no less who said this recently.

_I get slammed for this many times but this is how I do it.

First off every bit of water that houses Bettas has salt in it. I use 5 heaping tablespoons per 30 gallons and I make up my water change water 30 gallons at a time. This I use as a preventative for Velvet.

To treat sick fish I use coppersafe. Remember that the life cycle should be around 15 days so I recommend treating for 30 days. Also the parasite velvet can also photosynthesize so its best to use as little light as possible. I am not saying total darkness but just enough light that they can see to eat.

There was only one time we did not use salt in our Betta Fish room and we brought some pretty imports back from the Florida Convention and within a few weeks all of our Bettas in the fry tanks and several adults had velvet. We treated all of them just to be sure.

Any questions just ask.

Gerald Griffin_

Also you could read this for a more thorough explanation as to why this could be of benefit. http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/search/label/aquarium salt use

_This where the controversy begins in my opinion. The question is, should aquarium salt (sodium chloride) be used and if not, what will take its place for necessary electrolytes?
First, I will start off by stating again that ALL living organisms need certain electrolytes for biochemistry. The before mentioned resources help explain this fact).
I have read many scientific studies as well as performed many experiments over the years in the use of different salts including sodium chloride.
I will start by stating that a successful aquarium CAN be kept without sodium chloride HOWEVER, other "salts" MUST be present such as Calcium carbonate, otherwise your fish will have lower disease resistance and other physiological problems_

With my assumption that my fish immune systems are less than perfect due to water params , preventive measures became more important. I also do regular fish baths now with methylene blue. Whenever I do a major water change the fish gets a 20 minute float waiting for me to finish cleaning. No ill effects from this have been seen and my fish have been healthier since doing this with the therapeutic salt levels. Just putting this out there for discussion.


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## MattsBettas

This is one of my favorite pieces I have read on salt in freshwater aquaria, and it's written/compiled by Byron, who knows his stuff better then pretty much everyone (to be frank). http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-general-articles/salt-freshwater-aquarium-188649/

I don't add salt because freshwater fish are _freshwater_ fish- they don't come from areas with salt, and it just doesn't make sense to me that they would be built to take it in their water. There's are tons of other reasons (like how it raises the general hardness, which I definitely don't need), but the fact that freshwater fish don't live in salted water is the biggest one for me. 

I'm not attacking or criticizing you since I would never do that and it's working for you, but that's my contribution to the discussion.


----------



## logisticsguy

Well I have total respect for Byron too lol which is why we can have these interesting discussions. For me Calgarys water has a very low level of sodium out of the tap. I agree with Byron that regular prolonged use could cause problems but at what level of salinity? However at a low dose and used properly by not letting salt level build up it can have benefits imho. Too me its all about how much, like many other things a little can be good but a lot can cause harm. No worries I don't feel criticized this debate has been going on for years at ibc and the internet. I also give a water change one a month with no salt just to prevent any build up.


----------



## Stone

ouch 8.2 ph matt? that is as bad as ours, we use fluval peat pellets in most of our tanks, well the betta tanks to help along with anacharis will help lower it as well, and .50 ammonia is horrid, I understand your pain with the ph, we use ro/distilled to bring it down as well like 30% or so.

salt I do not see a problem using it, if we did not have planted tanks I would use it, there is salt in all freshwater it is just a very small amount. I have been lucky as far as not having to battle diseases but yeah I inspect the hell out of fish I buy and qt


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## beautiful Betta

Just read the thread that Matt posted very interesting read. I don't use salt, but then I have no issues with my fish, so not looking to change anything. The thing that gave me more thought was the fact it said marine salt was still just salt but contained more minerals. So if adding salt to your water is proving beneficial to you, maybe actually using marine salt at the same levels you are wound be even more beneficial. Just my thoughts.


----------



## BlueLacee

logisticsguy said:


> Tonight girl 2 was looking much better, less gasping and even ate a little so I think she should make it. They are each in a 10g with heater and seasoned sponge filters.
> 
> Here are some pics from tonight. Oh I need help with names.
> 
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> Girl 2 Looking better now
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> Here is Moose who had a panic attack when he saw the new girls.


Beautiful fish, and those mustashes...


----------



## logisticsguy

Babies all grown up. When I went to check on the 3 amigos giant spawn I was surprised to not see them because all 3 are usually front and center swimming like mad for attention and food. Upon closer inspection Krackle (girl 1) was hiding behind the filter and in the other corner was Snap (boy) and Pop (girl 2) trying to breed! Holy smokes only 13 weeks old. This is a growout not a spawn tank! I had hoped to keep them together a few more weeks. Snap was removed to his own new 10g tank to sulk. Pop was all v striped up then started dropping eggs everywhere. 

A fat boy from my f2 spawn named Monty kept getting fatter. Turns out I may have been wrong about Monty. Looks like he may be a she with very long fins for a girl. Geez there is always a % of the spawn that is really hard to sex. So Monique will be going to the sorority tank now. This is a hobby that's never boring, there is always something going on or things to do.


----------



## TruongLN

CJ, what are you feeding your spawn?


----------



## logisticsguy

I feed about 50% NLS Grow, 30% frozen spirulina brine shrimp, 10% bloodworms, 10% NutriDiet Fly larvae right now that fry are older. When the fry are young a mix of microworms and nhbbs then crushed to powder NLS Thera A.


----------



## Rollybro

are you going to sell them at some stage?


----------



## TruongLN

Thanks big guy! The only thing that seems daunting for me breeding wise is the food and feeding =/.


----------



## logisticsguy

Rollybro said:


> are you going to sell them at some stage?


Since this spawn was only 3 Im keeping them and using them as a base for further breeding. Sooner than expected now that they are sexually mature.



TruongLN said:


> Thanks big guy! The only thing that seems daunting for me breeding wise is the food and feeding =/.


No problem Truong. You can do it its not to hard. Getting the right amount can be tricky but if you have questions while doing the spawn Id be happy to give you humble opinions. 

Have you ever seen Oxylotls? My friend in BC is sending me some as soon as their back legs are fully developed. I love them and they are pretty much extinct in the natural habitat. Critically endangered species that has a future in aquariums. So darn cute too! Im excited to get them. This is what they look like. Pokémon?


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## MattsBettas

Axolotls are awesome, super unusual and neat little creatures. There's two of them here at the auction today. I'm excited for you to get them.


----------



## Mahsfish

Yea I've seen then. They are cool. You can get glow in the dark oned genetically alter with the jelly fish gene I think it is. My local pet smart is selling one tiny 2-3" one for $50 I think. Or higher I can't remember. 

And to my surprise I want to petsmart at market mall. The only one that sells dogs still as it is a separate chain. And their halfmoon bettas are $50 compared to $15-20 at other petslandss and $10 at petsmart


----------



## TruongLN

I would love your expertise and opinions when the time comes!

Axolotl's are the cutest things ever! I was really interested in them when I first started getting into bettas, but clearly bettas took over for me haha. They totally do look like Pokémon!! I'm 20 and still like Pokémon hahah.


----------



## TruongLN

Mahsfish said:


> Yea I've seen then. They are cool. You can get glow in the dark oned genetically alter with the jelly fish gene I think it is. My local pet smart is selling one tiny 2-3" one for $50 I think. Or higher I can't remember.
> 
> And to my surprise I want to petsmart at market mall. The only one that sells dogs still as it is a separate chain. And their halfmoon bettas are $50 compared to $15-20 at other petslandss and $10 at petsmart


Petland market mall has puppies, but petland Shawnessy has shelter dogs, and occasionally puppies (If anyone in the Calgary area is wondering)
I've yet to find an actual half moon at at pet store in Calgary.

River front aquarium sells Axolotl's as well.


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## Mahsfish

I have found sa fair bit ofhalfmoons in calgary at stores. None at petlands though. A couple at petsmart, big Al's and riverfront. 

As well as a festhertail I used to own from petsmart


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## logisticsguy

I haven't been to Riverfront for awhile and did not know they sold Oxylotl. I must go over there and take a look around. I do like it there, nothing fancy but always been treated fairly as a customer. I do love some of their saltwater tanks and could stare at the stingrays for hours. I have found a few beauty betta there occasionally. Nothing against the Petland employees but the prices are way too high and Ive had the misfortune of dealing with an owner of Petland in the past. My opinion of him is nothing I could print here. Now the little giant girl that spilled then ate a ton of eggs looks sick in the corner of the tank. I may need to unclog her with some Epson. Poor thing.

Mah Ive seen those glow in the dark Oxylotls, very cool!


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## TruongLN

Haha yeahhhh petland likes to jack up the prices on a lot of the product and animals, it's ridiculous.

Ahh so sorry about your female =[ hope she feels better soon.


----------



## Mahsfish

I hate their prices. It was so nice when they had the buy one get one on all fish on Tuesday nights before but they stopped. 

They sell guppies at $7 a piece when you can find people giving them away cause they have so many. And then the convict cichlids are like $11 each yet I offered to give them some for 50¢ and piece and they said they have too many cause they don't sell... I wonder why.


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## logisticsguy

Ok I am a bacteria nerd so I found this funny.


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## TruongLN

HAHA What a good nerdy meme.


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## BettaLover1313

lol now that's an awesome meme!


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## logisticsguy

Pics of 9 week old giant purple hmee Saturn x red marble hm Storm. not perfect for sure but its a 1st try getting marble, giant and EE in line for future generations.


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## MattsBettas

Very nice. What color is he second to last fish?


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## logisticsguy

He is an odd one Matt it depends on which direction the light hits him. He looks purple in some light and metallic blue/grey in others. One fry looks like growing EE but Im not sure.


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## logisticsguy

Im really looking forward to nexts months shipment because this beastly boy is on his way with a sibling sister from ram91 who I have a great deal of respect for. Pretty much top notch giant genetics and a good guy to deal with.


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## Rollybro

Please update when they arrive!!


----------



## beautiful Betta

I actually posted that boy on AB a while back he is stunning, me and Illgrim? had a discussion about what tail type he was, I thought he was a spade tail, she thought normal plakat. What is his tail type for the record?


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## TruongLN

The fry look amazing CJ! I didn't know you were getting a girl in with Zeus! That's awesome.


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## MattsBettas

He's a HMPK with a slightly spade shaped tail, and a very beautiful fish! Do you have pictures of his sisters? 

And watch the fish that looks like it may be developing elephant ears- it's fun to watch them develop.


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## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> I actually posted that boy on AB a while back he is stunning, me and Illgrim? had a discussion about what tail type he was, I thought he was a spade tail, she thought normal plakat. What is his tail type for the record?


Glad you liked him beautifulBetta. Its kinda reassuring that to know other betta nuts like him too. I think Matt has it right as a HMPK with a bit of a spade tail. I should stay away from aquabid lol as soon as I saw him I was helpless. Ive wanted a giant from ram91 for some time. Is it just me or are the aquabid fish getting even more amazing lately?



TruongLN said:


> The fry look amazing CJ! I didn't know you were getting a girl in with Zeus! That's awesome.


Yeah we worked out a deal for a sibling. I convinced myself it would be practical since one was coming anyway. Just one more fish! He is going to very busy guy that fish 



MattsBettas said:


> He's a HMPK with a slightly spade shaped tail, and a very beautiful fish! Do you have pictures of his sisters? And watch the fish that looks like it may be developing elephant ears- it's fun to watch them develop.


 I will soon hopefully, left it to him to send me a nice one. I have seen pics of other females from this (rams incredible spawn) and thought they were super nice. I didn't really expect any EE since only dad had them but pretty sure one of them with pecs growing larger than normal.


----------



## Mahsfish

Not to be a wise a** or anything. But I know its pretty much the same thing but that boy looks OHMPK imo. 

Just to be more specific. Hehe


----------



## logisticsguy

You wise arse lol. If you guys are interested in how ram91 raises his fish take a look at his location page.

http://www.ram91giantbettas.com/location.htm


----------



## xStatic

I just wanted to say I've been reading along on this thread for quite a while now and it's been so great to see so many amazing giant bettas! It really is a bummer that you have lost a few along the way, but it's so exciting whenever you start up a new spawn 

Also it's great to hear you are feeling better.

Today I was surfing AB today and found a cute little boy that reminded me so much of your cookie that I had to come and comment. He is not a giant though, but he sure is cute!

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1399953592


----------



## MattsBettas

Hey CJ, how are things going?


----------



## logisticsguy

I just want to apologize for not keeping the thread updated. Some bad news first. We lost Cookie Monster to a tumor. She had been going downhill for weeks. In the end I tried to remove it and did get it but left a large wound. She only survived for 2-3 hours. Lessons were learned I hope. Since changing a few ways I operate things have been good with no disease issues and my fish have been super hyper active. 

On the good side we had a small spawn from Houdini and Pumpkin. Only about 10 but that is ok. The Saturn x pumpkin spawn is 3 months old and a few are ready for new homes and some already found new homes. A new boy on the scene is Zeus who is a big pretty giant HMPK but frankly he is as a dumb as dirt. 

Houdini is now in a spawn tank with a pretty dalmation female named Chi borrowed from a friend, it looks promising. I have a few ready for sale if anyone is interested can pick up or ship in Canada. Sorry to spam it up with pics but here goes. Oh and a few pics of our Axolotls oh my I have fallen for them. 

Zues Giant HMPK









Tiki 3 month old half giant female.









SP006 this 3 month old half giant boy was just sold and on his way to Edmonton tomorrow.









Houdini chasing Chi around before the spawn.









SP001 This half giant boy is for sale. I have a video if any one interested. 









Week old fry from Houdini already has the old mans face.









Purple girl 3 month half giant female sold to friend in BC. I really liked her.

















This is Poseidon an Giant Hmpk not handsome but very big.









Young giant female named Pop ready to spawn.









Snap. he is a 4 month old half giant ready to be sold. he has a minor swim bladder issue. good pet though.









Video of 2 young males flaring here. Front one is for sale. boy in back already sold.

http://youtu.be/W3BnMl7m1qI


----------



## MattsBettas

Thanks for the update! I'm so sorry about Cookie, you (quite obviously) tried your best. Did you ever get babies from her? 

Tiki... Oh my goodness that form is awesome. What spawn was she from?


----------



## logisticsguy

Axolotls

Spud 









Goldust the Golden Albino









Smokey the wild one.









Wilbur the teeny weeny baby









Willy has super long fluffy gills


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Thanks for the update! I'm so sorry about Cookie, you (quite obviously) tried your best. Did you ever get babies from her?
> 
> Tiki... Oh my goodness that form is awesome. What spawn was she from?


Thanks Matt. yeah sucked losing Cookie. Tiki dad is Saturn and Mom is Pumpkin. She will be kept around here for breeding. Never did get a spawn from Cookie...makes me so sad. Just when I got big enough tough boys she got sick.


----------



## beautiful Betta

So sorry to hear about Cookie, she was a stunning girl shame you didn't get a spawn out of her. Your new boy Zeus looks in great shape.

The Axolotls are funny little things. They look little but if it is the same things I see in tanks in shops over here, they get really big.


----------



## BettaLover1313

Very sorry to hear about Cookie.

Your young bettas are looking fantastic! Wow! Zeus is quite the looker too! Those Axolotls are just too adorable!


----------



## DaytonBetta

Very cool Axolotls and beautiful bettas!


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks guys! I really miss Cookie a lot. The search for a girl like her has begun with contact to the thai breeder I got her from and hope to bring in some of her relative females. The axolotls can get big and they need to be about 18 months old to breed. I just love them! Working on getting a couple more betta spawns going soon.


----------



## FishWhisperer

Sorry about cookie. I would like a spawn but I am not in canada and I only have an empty 2.5.


----------



## logisticsguy

This female just became a Mom at only 14 weeks old. Not a mark on her. Proud of my boy.


----------



## Fenghuang

She is a beautiful girl, LG. Congrats on your new spawn!


----------



## beautiful Betta

logisticsguy said:


> This female just became a Mom at only 14 weeks old. Not a mark on her. Proud of my boy.


She's a lovely girl. Who was her considerate partner?


----------



## logisticsguy

Partner was Houdini a very gentle lover boy that gets it. I am so happy with him right now.


----------



## beautiful Betta

He certainly was a great buy, a experienced partner and still young himself.

He's a lover not a fighter comes to mind, but he is a fighter, lol


----------



## FishWhisperer

That should be a wonderful spawn


----------



## Fenghuang

That is a very handsome male. Can't wait to see what their babies look like.


----------



## logisticsguy

Houdini Pumpkin fry





























Just set up a new axolotl tank. Should have them moved in tomorrow.


----------



## Mahsfish

Everything looks and works really great CJ. I like the orange fry in the first pic. And nice tank. I know you for them not to long ago. But do you have any plans on breeding the axolotls in the future?


----------



## logisticsguy

Hey thanks B. Yes I think I will breed Axolotl down the road. I takes them a long time (14-18 months) to reach breeding size and age. This is the part of all the work and worry I enjoy most, watching the young fry grow up.


----------



## MattsBettas

Everything looks awesome. Great picture of that axolotl, it looks like it's got some sort of smug look on its face. Did you get them moved into their tank? Out of curiosity, how big is it? 

On another note, are you getting that giant boy (or a sibling) you posted on the aquabid thread?


----------



## logisticsguy

Axolotls seem to always be smiling! Moved the juvi group into their tank its a 10g. There are 8 around 3 to 4 inches. Sally is my big one she is in her own 10g and about 7-8 inches. 

We had a good day as Zeus and Houdini were removed from spawn attempts and both have free swimmers. They did a good job and got a crap load of bloodworms for the effort. 

Here is the juvi axylotl tank with its new members.










Freckles


















The Gang










This is gator he is a wild and growing really fast.


















This is Sally in her own 10g









Little Albino


----------



## logisticsguy

I will be getting sibling sisters from that nice giant boy Matt. It wont be until July because I will be gone for 10 days to BC and my substitute fish keeper will have enough on his plate already.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## BlueLacee

They are all stunning


----------



## beautiful Betta

Your fry look really healthy. I am assuming they are still quite small they look small from the pictures.


----------



## ynahanson

Nice tank. I will be fixing up my fish tanks as soon as I get rid of a few furniture. I would be interested in a few fry from that spawn, hopefully by the time they are ready my fish area in my living room is up and running. gotta get a truck and some muscles to move stuff to Goodwill.


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks bB. They are 31 days old so still small. Im doing a 50% wc every 3 days. Feeding bbs with a vitamin b12 supplement. Mixing in frozen sprulina brine shrimp. Almost ready for their first chopped bloodworms. Next week they get their first NLS grow pellets added. Im pretty optimistic about this bunch they are high energy fry.


----------



## beautiful Betta

I am not a breeder, so don't know what exactly you look for when they are growing. But from what I can see, they have quite nice smooth lines at the moment. And your maintenance, diet for them certainly seems to be working for them health wise.

Good luck with introducing them to the pellets.


----------



## MattsBettas

Looks awesome, CJ. That's too bad that you're getting them later- I'll probably be in Calgary on the weekend of the 21st, so we might have been able to combine shipping- if I get these stiktos.


----------



## logisticsguy

Well I totally understand the shipping thing its so expensive unless we combine them. Timing is just bad because of my vacation or I would have ordered the giant females. I really hope you get the stitkos! they are beautiful. If you have time when your in Calgary, it would be great if you could stop in for a visit. We could talk betta and Axolotl plus it would be nice to see you again.


----------



## logisticsguy

So much going on here lately I need to update 

It is possible to get a large spawn here after all! Zues and Chi were tanked last week and lo and behold about 100-200 fry! At the exact same time Houdini and home grown beauty queen SP005 spawned with about 50-100 fry. 

The Houdini Pumpkin spawn is about 35 days old looking real good so far. Some very large for their age but a couple teenies. Houdini sadly got a nasty case of cotton mouth which he is being treated for in the hospital tank with a combination of meds. He is a great fish so don't want to lose him. Fortunately he is the only sick fish everyone else is good knock on wood. 

The Saturn Pumpkin spawn is completely sold except for SP005 who will be kept as a breeder girl. Love her energy and form she is a 4th generation girl for me and when looking at old pics I can see we are making modest progress every generation.

We are just loving our axolotl group. Keeping these guys and betta seem like such a natural fit. I will post up some pics in a couple days. 

WTH is going on lately with all the gun shootings and violence lately in Canada and the USA. Its ridiculous and scary for me because it wont be long before my daughter is a police officer. Anyways sorry for the rant. Cheers!


----------



## Fenghuang

Geez, that is a lot of babies. It sounds like you are going to have your hands full with so many supersized babies. Congratulations on them, I bet you are a proud fish grandpa! 

And yeah, the frequency of shootings lately is terrible. I've counted at least five major ones that made headlines in the US this week. Not mentioning other violent acts. It is sad and scary. ):


----------



## beautiful Betta

Zeus is living up to his godly name. 

Wishing Houdini a swift recovery.


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

If I remember correctly there's been 74 shootings since Sandy Hook - We need to stop talking about them!! There's a proven correlation between coverage of shootings, and amount... 
Some sick kid sees all the 'glory' the shooter gets, and gets to thinking that that's the way they want to go out. 
If we stopped the media circlejerk about the shootings, the frequency would decrease. 
Plus mental health care in America is abysmal and laughable...


----------



## Mahsfish

Congrats on the big spawn CJ. And good too hear the fry are doing well. Sorry about Houdini. Hopefully he recovers quickly


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks guys. Houdini likely got the mouth infection from tending eggs he has been a busy boy. Its a difficult one. The size of the infection is smaller so he can eat now but getting rid of it has been hard. If it doesn't get much better today I will give him some hydrogen peroxide directly on the sore tonight with a q tip. Poor guy I really like him and would be crushing to lose another favorite fish.


----------



## logisticsguy

Good day today. The infection that had covered Houdini mouth entirely has completely disappeared. Gone!! So if you ever get a case of this what I did was put him in a 2g hospital tank, lowered the temp to 72f, added methylene Blue @ 3 drops per gallon. Six total. with half tsp Aq salt per gallon. Added one scoop Kanaplex. Left him there for 48 hrs. The infection stopped growing during this period but still visible just smaller and blue lol. Then changed his water 80% and used half cap Paraguard to the new slightly salted water. Overnight it disappeared. He is now swimming happily and eating well back in his own tank. Whew! . His new spawn with SP005 looks fine but Ive added a tiny dose of Paraguard just in case. One of my oldest girls in the sorority had a big bulge in her side so decided to euthanize her. Ive discovered my biggest axolotl is a humane culling machine.

New parents Zues and Chi I tried to get pics of the fry but in clear plastic buckets camera cant focus. I do have better luck spawning in plastic than glass. Maybe the thai guy *greatest breeder in the world* guy had a point after all.


----------



## MattsBettas

Where'd the dalmation girl come from?


----------



## Mahsfish

That dalmation gal look like to one truong ordered.


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes that is Truongs girl Chi. She was borrowed for the spawn attempt. We have shared custody of the children.  Im excited to see what we get from this pair. Chi is on an extended visit and we may use her for a spawn try with Houdini next month after Im back from a holiday. She did get some fin nips from Zues he is relentless but got the job done.


----------



## logisticsguy

One does not simply share food.


----------



## Mahsfish

Yea! I was right. Haha. Jokes aside, that's a neat picture CJ. Its Lady and the Tramp.


----------



## beautiful Betta

^^^My thoughts exactly when I saw that, its a great pic.


----------



## Mahsfish

That's a really nice pair. Hopefully you can produce some more dalmations. But that female is halfmoon right? 

And if you guys are interested. I started a journal. Going to be doing more updates so I thought why not. Link is in my sig


----------



## logisticsguy

That is amazing how you spotted Chi! Yes she is a half moon. Im hoping to get some interesting fry from them. Maybe even a few giant Dalmatians if lucky. Im going to frequent your journal.


----------



## logisticsguy

A true giant betta.


----------



## MattsBettas

Where in the world did you find that? Did anyone actually think it was real?


----------



## logisticsguy

It was on facebook. I thought it was pretty funny


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha saw that picture up on one of the Aussie betta FB pages.


----------



## Mahsfish

That is a huge betta. I wonder if anyone has come in their tanks. That must be like 6ft long... *sarcasm*


----------



## logisticsguy

Oh my the Zues/Chi spawn tub is just filthy with fry. 100s of them! Every time I look I see more. The 55g will have to be used as a grow out for this one. No dead fry yet in either spawn. This could be a real challenge when jar time arrives.


----------



## Mahsfish

More fry... More money more money more money lol


----------



## logisticsguy

HP spawn update week 6


----------



## logisticsguy

We upgraded the Axolotl gang to a 33g with purple play sand.


----------



## Stone

Jellous of the axolotl, I want to have some someday but I have too many projects going as is, have 4 colors of neo shrimp going, some carbon rilleys,all my other fish, cut way back on bettas, they just can't handle the water here without causing more problems, so I now have a breeding colony of Pseudomugil furcatus and I ordered 40+ eggs of Pseudomugil gertrudae Aru, they have hatched out and are growing well, just a slow process of raising them but these little rainbows can handle high and low ph water and by high i mean like 9 high and they are pretty entertaining to watch and very active


----------



## MattsBettas

CJ... It's gonna be hard not to come home with anything today...


----------



## BettaLover1313

The fry look great and love the new axolotl tank!


----------



## SorcerersApprentice

CJ, your axolotl tank looks AWESOME!


----------



## Fenghuang

Wow, your axolotl tank is fantastic. I love how whimisical it looks. And that fry bright orange/red fry is gorgeous.


----------



## BlueLacee

Wow, what lucky fish, and they are all stunning as well, keep up the good work


----------



## MattsBettas

How are the endlers settling in? 

The babies look even better in person, by the way. Nice seeing you, and thank you so much CJ!


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> Jellous of the axolotl, I want to have some someday but I have too many projects going as is, have 4 colors of neo shrimp going, some carbon rilleys,all my other fish, cut way back on bettas, they just can't handle the water here without causing more problems, so I now have a breeding colony of Pseudomugil furcatus and I ordered 40+ eggs of Pseudomugil gertrudae Aru, they have hatched out and are growing well, just a slow process of raising them but these little rainbows can handle high and low ph water and by high i mean like 9 high and they are pretty entertaining to watch and very active


Stone I can relate to imperfect water conditions. Ive found it a struggle with parameters out of whack right from the tap. As soon as I can afford it Im getting a RO system that can make enough water, then just add what I like to it and make it much more ideal for these fish. Certain I would see better results with breeding and overall health although the fry born and raised in this yucky tap water tolerate it better than imports. Very cool the Pseudomugil furcatus love to see some pics.



MattsBettas said:


> CJ... It's gonna be hard not to come home with anything today...


Our visit was too short and too bad it was so busy here just bad timing. I think a cross of the HP spawn and your pineapple would be sweet!



BettaLover1313 said:


> The fry look great and love the new axolotl tank!





SorcerersApprentice said:


> CJ, your axolotl tank looks AWESOME!





Fenghuang said:


> Wow, your axolotl tank is fantastic. I love how whimisical it looks. And that fry bright orange/red fry is gorgeous.





BlueLacee said:


> Wow, what lucky fish, and they are all stunning as well, keep up the good work


Thanks so much you guys! positive feedback is always welcome :-D

The axies are a lot of fun. This was my first try with the Crayola play sand. I love it but it does require rinsing just to get the floaters out. 



MattsBettas said:


> How are the endlers settling in?
> 
> The babies look even better in person, by the way. Nice seeing you, and thank you so much CJ!


It was great to see you again my friend!! This is the first endlers for me but they seem fine. Really fast moving. They were fed and look super healthy. Im off for a road trip for the next 5 days so hope the substitute feeder does ok  Tonight Im changing water like a madman to get ready. I hate to leave with the spawns going I will worry like crazy but its important that I go. Talk soon.


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is a pic of the endlers for Matt & Mah. They enjoyed a small bit of live bbs tonight.


----------



## Stone

Here is a short vid of the Pseudomugil furcatus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0vAZ3bUcOg&feature=youtu.be they are active little guys approx 7 months old not completely full grown but close


----------



## logisticsguy

A great day was spent in the wonderful Nootka Sound. We came across a family reunion of sea otters all playing happily. So this is where I want to retire not so long from now because im old lol Fish, birds, whales, bears deer. it was great.


----------



## TruongLN

Beautiful place!!


----------



## beautiful Betta

that looks so beautiful. Peaceful. I am guessing it is in Canada?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes it is off the west coast of Canada. Remote village of Tahsis. The road in is quite something. So many photos I liked from the trip I don't know which to post. It is stunning and pristine, a tropical rain forest and the fishing is fabulous.


----------



## MattsBettas

That looks amazing, CJ. I've only been to Canada's west coast once, but it's definitely somewhere that I love and would really like to visit again. Those sea otters are awesome! 

Are the endlers all doing well?


----------



## logisticsguy

Good news Matt the endlers are in terrific shape. I really like them. Mah is picking up tomorrow. My worm farm died while I was gone and now I have to feed the ravenous Axolotls vast amounts of expensive bloodworms until I get more. I may just flood my lawn and duke it out with the robins for the worms.


----------



## MattsBettas

Glad to hear you enjoyed them, they really are nice fish as different as they are from bettas. If you ever want any, let me know and Im sure we could work something out pretty easily. I'm assuming they're all gone by now? 

And that sucks about your worm colony- good luck getting another one set up!


----------



## logisticsguy

Its good to see progress happening in my giant project. The Houdini and Pumpkin fry are amazing me. The fry are gigantic for almost 8 weeks old and have an appetite that is insane. The last weeks growth is much faster than anything Ive seen before. They are bigger than most pet store betta already. Except for the one runt that thinks he is really huge for some reason and bullies the others. If he could only look in a mirror. I may need to break up the spawn before the usual 12 weeks at this rate so will post for sale in a week or so.


----------



## logisticsguy

8 week update for Houdini Pumpkin spawn. Lots of scrapping and some tail nips showing up. I may not even make it to week 10 this time before jars. Growing well and still healthy group. 




























These are the first pics of Houdini x SPOO5. Just moved out of the spawn tank at 2.5 weeks. Grumpy bunch.


----------



## Jennalyn

I love your purple substrate. It reminds me of some sort of alien moonscape and it really shows off the shine on your little guys.


----------



## BettaLover1313

The fry look amazing! They have such pretty coloration.


----------



## PetMania

The coloration in that first picture is absolutely stunning! I really need to catch up on journals  Being gone for a month seems like a year.


----------



## Jennalyn

I can't help it, I just have to know - where on earth did your purple substrate come from? All I'm turning up is gravel.


----------



## logisticsguy

That is Crayola play sand. It comes in blue purple green and one more color cant remember. We had to rinse and pour a few floaters but really happy with it. It is also quite inexpensive and non toxic.


----------



## Pandanke

Love your fish! I never knew they came in "giant" size! Is there info out there regarding them? Especially in tankmates and their suggested size. I've got a 40g B I want to put up and needed a top dweller and I... may have totally fallen in love with your big guys. The dalmation is adorable!

Also, seconding how gorgeous that sand brings out their color.


----------



## beautiful Betta

Your fry have sure grown fast. They are stunning I love that purple boy. Purple being one of my favourite betta colours. Are they turning out to be giant as well?


----------



## Jennalyn

Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction! Our local Walmart had a ton of it.


----------



## logisticsguy

BettaLover1313 said:


> The fry look amazing! They have such pretty coloration.


Thank you! Ive been working on this for awhile and happy with how these guys are turning out. Wish I had a bigger spawn.



PetMania said:


> The coloration in that first picture is absolutely stunning! I really need to catch up on journals  Being gone for a month seems like a year.


Hey Petmania! Good to see you lil buddy!



Pandanke said:


> Love your fish! I never knew they came in "giant" size! Is there info out there regarding them? Especially in tankmates and their suggested size. I've got a 40g B I want to put up and needed a top dweller and I... may have totally fallen in love with your big guys. The dalmation is adorable!
> 
> Also, seconding how gorgeous that sand brings out their color.


Thanks. Giants are pretty awesome your tank would be perfect, they have quite the personality. The dalmation girl is Chi and I will be posting pics of her and orange giant Zues babies this week.



beautiful Betta said:


> Your fry have sure grown fast. They are stunning I love that purple boy. Purple being one of my favourite betta colours. Are they turning out to be giant as well?


Yeah I think I will keep the purple guy for breeding. Some are giants. A few of the females are monsters and are eating machines its crazy. One runt boy is not but funny because he is sure he is huge and chases fish 5x his size around. What a nutbar.



Jennalyn said:


> Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction! Our local Walmart had a ton of it.


No problem good luck with your tank!


----------



## logisticsguy

We have some baby giant pics today. These are first pics of orange giant Zues and orange dalmation Chi babies. 2.5 weeks old. About 100 to 150 fry. Hard to get decent photos because they move quick.


----------



## beautiful Betta

They look so adorable. What colour do you expect them to be?


----------



## KafkaDream

I am thoroughly impressed with your spawns!! Amazing, vibrant colors and gorgeous finnage


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks! I expect to see lots of orange on this spawn with a percentage of Dalmatians. Zues is from ram91 giant farm so some solid reds as well. Its always kind of fun watching what you get as time goes on. The fry are looong bodied and likely really aggressive because both parents are well....known to beat up other fish in the spawn tub.


----------



## beautiful Betta

So you are likely to have some right gladiator matches as they mature. I hope you got your separate tanks ready.


----------



## logisticsguy

You got that right!  They are already bumping at 2.5 weeks old.


----------



## logisticsguy

Holy Cow I didn't realize how chubby these 9 week old females were until I saw this pic. Time for a diet girls. If anyone looking for some young females I will have some available. They may be a bit chunky though


----------



## TruongLN

The colour on these girls are insane!


----------



## Pippin

I have to subscribe to this thread. Those bettas look beautiful, and I want to see more pictures of them!


----------



## beautiful Betta

They are lovely looking girls.


----------



## logisticsguy

A couple months ago we lost a terrific giant girl named Cookie. I loved that big lug. It took awhile but finally found a young giant female that reminds me of her. Meet Giant Dalmatian female #293 from Eggmoon via aquabid. She will be known as Cookie 2.


----------



## Pandanke

Yay! More gorgeous dalmatian females. I just cannot get over how beautiful they are. Hope she arrives safely.


----------



## beautiful Betta

Cookie 2 I love it, she has big fins to fill.:-D


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy

So much fish care to do today. You get a little behind and wham. Its nice to have had no sick fish lately. All the fry in the spawns seem to be doing very well, no fry lost in any of the spawns post hatch. Water changes today, lots of them. Still trying to convince family members that I am not insane.


----------



## hrutan

logisticsguy said:


> So much fish care to do today. You get a little behind and wham. Its nice to have had no sick fish lately. All the fry in the spawns seem to be doing very well, no fry lost in any of the spawns post hatch. Water changes today, lots of them. Still trying to convince family members that I am not insane.


Next time they tell you you're crazy, say what I say: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

There's gotta be something that they do that's equally insane. Or you have a very boring family. There's that, too.


----------



## logisticsguy

I have some 9 week old half giant females for sale. Large chubby girls. 25 each located in Calgary.

HP001F


----------



## logisticsguy

HP spawn 9 weeks old today. 2 males jarred for bad behaviour.


----------



## logisticsguy

9 week old large half giant females are for sale.





































Gilligan. He and his brother removed for biting each others tails.










3 week olds HSP5 spawn



















Almost 3 week old ZC spawn. Growing like weeds.


----------



## beautiful Betta

All your fish are looking great, are you still using a small amount of AQ salt?


----------



## Zuzu

Gilligan has the same angry pouty expression my daughters get when they get separated for fighting.


----------



## clementchee

I am drooling looking at your bettas!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> All your fish are looking great, are you still using a small amount of AQ salt?


I sure am beautiful Betta. Using at 1 tsp per 5g has been able to keep my fish healthier overall. My plants don't grow very fast but my fish do way better. I was losing the battle vs crappy bacterial infections despite giving them good care. It was very frustrating. I made the change to having a slightly higher salinity level a few months ago and it has helped keep me sane. Ive had 1 fish get columnaris since the change but wiped it out quickly with Methylene Blue/ Paraguard dips. So very happy such a simple change could make a big difference.


----------



## Hallyx

What aspects of your water params do you think AQ Salt helps with, CJ? Anything specific? What are your readings, anyway? Just nosy right now, but I'm always open to new thinking.

And, by the way, how are those probiotics working for you?


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## logisticsguy

Hey Hallyx good to see you my friend. You asked a very specific and good question regarding the water parameters. The biggest parameter effect of salt involves the Nitrite. There are other benefits of course such as pathogen reduction but lets talk Nitrite right now.

Nitrite is a byproduct of Nitrosomonas bacteria breaking down ammonia during the nitrogen cycle. Nitrobacter bacteria break down Nitrites into nitrate. 

If levels are too high in an aquarium it can affect the fish's respiration. Generally, levels of nitrite below 2 mg/l are considered safe for betta fish. Nitrite toxicity is somewhat dependent on the pH of the water and becomes more toxic in acidic conditions (reverse of ammonia toxicity). If the pH is above 7, betta can tolerate higher levels, but the amount varies on the fish (depends on size, age, and health). 

Water changes are often used to reduce the nitrite levels in the aquarium, however, changing 90% of the water will only reduce the nitrite concentration by 30% (Kohler, 1997). It takes Nitrobacter bacteria about 30 hours to reproduce and double the size of the colony of bacteria. 

Salt added to the aquarium, usually 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons water, helps the fish because the chloride ion (cl-) from the NACL (sodium chloride, or salt) attaches to the gill cells where oxygen enters the blood. This is also the place where nitrite enters the blood, therefore the chloride blocks the nitrite from entering. This only works well if the pH is above 7.0 (my tapwater ph is over 8.0) is in acidic conditions Nitrite (NO2) will bind with hydrogen ions, H+ (acid contains more H+) and form Nitrous acid (HNO2). Nitrous acid is not blocked by CL- ions at the gill site, and thus can pass freely into the blood. 

Nitrite combines with the iron in the hemoglobin (changes it to methemoglobin, called "brown blood"), oxidizing the iron and changing it from Fe+2 to Fe+3. Fe+2 will bind with oxygen as is normally occurring during respiration; Fe+3 cannot bind with Oxygen (O2). 

Chronic high Nitrite levels can play havoc with the fish immune system and cause stress. Signs of nitrite toxicity may include increase respirations or gasping for air then become lethargic and can die. As you know Prime also neutralises the toxicity of nitrite however the effect is temporary. Using a lil aq salt along with Prime and regular water changes has kept my levels extremely low and fish mucho happy.


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## Stone

LG wished you lived here in the USA a giant sorority would rock, but yeah I would ahve to buy another tank, damn fishies making me spend money.....My simorums are getting mature finally, have to get the males paired with girls and split apart, they are finally coloring uo, been fun watching them grow


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## logisticsguy

I hear you about the money Stone. It never stops lol. If the wife sees more credit card transactions for the LFS Im in trouble. Those Simorums are cool! I am seriously wanting getting into wilds but if I set up another tank here it could get ugly. We started a couple of Axolotl tanks and I love those guys just as much as betta. It would be great to see a pic of your fry!


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## Zuzu

logisticsguy said:


> Using at 1 tsp per 5g...





logisticsguy said:


> Salt added to the aquarium, usually 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons water...


Your information is a bit confusing to me because "tsp" is generally used as an abbreviation for teaspoon, while "Tbs" or "Tbsp" (note the capitalization) is used for Tablespoon. I'm assuming you're using 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons since that's spelled out, but I wanted to make sure.


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## logisticsguy

Zuzu said:


> Your information is a bit confusing to me because "tsp" is generally used as an abbreviation for teaspoon, while "Tbs" or "Tbsp" (note the capitalization) is used for Tablespoon. I'm assuming you're using 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons since that's spelled out, but I wanted to make sure.


You are correct that is confusing. I use 1 rounded tablespoon for ever 5 gallons of tank water.


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## logisticsguy

For some time now Ive been wanting to share some opinions about betta care. Truth is that I do experiments on my fish. Nothing crazy or hurtful to them just different theories and ideas to get healthier fish. Please keep in mind that there are many ways to keep these fish and this is just me sharing what I do now. So Ive been asked by a friend to open up and tell exactly why my fish grow fast and have improved color and vitality. There are 4 parts and each deserves its own explanation. 1. Spirulina 2. Probiotics 3. Aquarium salt 4. Fish baths and dips. We will start with the how and why of 1. Spirulina in my next post and go from there.


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## beautiful Betta

I am confused reading that info, in a cycled tank you shouldn't have any nitrite levels, the same as Ammonia, Your are not getting mixed up with Nitrate? Sorry if I am missing something. It is all a bit over my head anyway, but as far as I understand the cycle once cycled you don't have Ammonia or Nitrite.


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## autojoy

Hello! Been lurking here for a while gazing at the beautiful giant fishes you have, Logisticsguy! 

I found that post about salt super interesting. I'm keen to hear more of your betta care info too. Thanks for taking the time to share it


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## logisticsguy

beautiful Betta said:


> I am confused reading that info, in a cycled tank you shouldn't have any nitrite levels, the same as Ammonia, Your are not getting mixed up with Nitrate? Sorry if I am missing something. It is all a bit over my head anyway, but as far as I understand the cycle once cycled you don't have Ammonia or Nitrite.


Don't worry about it. This entire subject is ridiculously complex. You are not missing anything. In a cycled tank you should have 0 ammonia and zero nitrites. Consider the salt as an assistant to the good bacteria. Here is the thing. Many betta keepers have smaller tanks which are more susceptible to problems like low oxygen, over cleaning, massive water changes, inadequate filtration, clogged or failed filtration, over stocking, over feeding or simply don't test the water often enough. All these effect the bb and can cause an increase in Nitrite. After all nitrite poisoning is the 2nd leading cause of death in freshwater aquarium fish. Certainly salt is more important if the fish is in an uncycled or unstable tank but acts as security in a way for cycled ones. In cycled, stable or larger tanks with everything working well the aquarium salt is there more to keep pathogen numbers down.



autojoy said:


> Hello! Been lurking here for a while gazing at the beautiful giant fishes you have, Logisticsguy!
> 
> I found that post about salt super interesting. I'm keen to hear more of your betta care info too. Thanks for taking the time to share it


Well thanks autojoy. I went through a rough patch but things are getting much better. I will try to get those posts up soon.

Im crushing on this guy. He has quite the personality. Wish I had pulled him from the spawn earlier before his anal got bit. 




























This is one of his sisters that I like.










Sneaking an Axolotl pic in because Im nuts for them.


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## beautiful Betta

I see, thanks. I wish I could get some nitrites in that tank I am still trying to cycle, it probably doesn't help that we are in winter here, so the heater is constantly coming on and off to stabilize the temp. The night temp drops quite a bit at the moment.

Love the pics.


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## Thothgirl

I must share this story. I have been showing my husband your Journal, mostly because I think Giant Bettas are neat. I was showing him pictures and then at the bottom were the pics of your Axolotls. His eyes lit up and he has spent the past 3 hour researching how to take care of them and planing where to fit the 20 long. 

I thought you might find it neat that you have through the magic of the internet brought forth another Axolotls lover.


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## logisticsguy

Thank you for sharing that! Terrific! I just love the axolotls! Little water dragons. You just made my day.


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## Hallyx

Excellent, CJ. Great disquisition on the advantages of AQ salt in remediating nitrite effects. A more concise treatment than anything else I've read online, and still accurate. As your tanks are cycled with relatively high pH, I assume you're using salt more as a prophylaxis against pathogens. 

I find salt and Epsom salt both increase hardness and pH. Do you agree?

So, here am I, a major giant-Betta lover, with a breeder friend less than 250 miles away, and I can get a fish from AB faster and easier. <sigh> :-( So frustrating.


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## logisticsguy

Hallyx the border and cost of shipping here in Canada makes small breeders here very uncompetitive and forces me to sell locally. It can cost $70 just to send one fish to another province and lord know how much to get a fish only 250 miles to you. Extremely frustrating. 

Yes my main use of Aq salt is as a prophylaxis against pathogens. As you know there is huge problem. Every day we many keepers with troubles here at the forum. Often they take excellent care of the fish and still get columnaris, ich, pop eye, velvet ect. It goes on and on. Many antibiotic resistant strains are also emerging. Im not saying using salt will stop all disease, however it will dramatically reduce the numbers and how effectively they can reproduce. The other reason is to improve the fish own osmo regulation. Sodium regulates extra-cellular electrolyte, essential for the transport of nutrients across the cell membranes. Simply they seem less stressed.

Calcium and Magnesium and Sodium are reducing electrolytes. Chloride and Phosphates are generally oxidizing electrolytes. Calcium and Magnesium are associated with hard water while Sodium, Potassium, and Phosphates are associated with soft water. Fish require a subtle and complex electrolyte balance between the intracellular and extra cellular environment regulating the hydration of the fish, blood pH, disease resistance and proper nerve and muscle functions. So in hard water like mine we have lots of calcium and magnesium but no sodium so the balance is off.

Aquarium salt does NOT increase water hardness. It will increase the overall minerals in the water, it isn't a hardening mineral like Calcium or magnesium so will not be measured by most gh test kits. Salt (NaCl) has no effect on GH. GH measures the amount of dissolved calcium and magnesium in water that's all. KH measures the amount of carbonates in water. Salt - NaCl does nothing to your water hardness which is a measure of the multivalent cations in your water which is mostly Calcium (Ca++) and Magnesium (Mg++). Sodium (Na) is monovalent so does not contribute towards water hardness. There are salts that do increase hardness, this is where the confusion comes in. Chiclid salt for example contains calcium and magnesium as well so these salts do increase hardness.


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## logisticsguy

Ive become a real fan of spirulina. I use a product from Hikari called spirulina brine shrimp. The shrimp are gut loaded with spirulina then harvested and frozen. (Spirulina Arthrospira) is a planktonic blue-green algae found in the warm waters of alkaline volcanic lakes. Spirulina is completely different from other algae in that it 
is more similar to bacteria than to plants. It occupies a niche between bacteria and plants. It is a unique kind of cyanobacteria, and its spiral shaped structure makes it look very similar to other cyanobacteria. Amazingly, it is this characteristic likeness to bacteria that causes the body, once it is ingested, to perceive Spirulina as a bacterium, and therefore causes it to step up its production of antibodies, which in turn increases disease resistance. Spirulina is rich in raw protein and seven major vitamins – A1, B1, B2, B6, B12, C and E. In fact, it is one of the best natural sources for vitamin B12. It also naturally contains beta-carotene and other colour enhancing pigments, as well as a whole range of beneficial minerals. In addition, Spirulina has a 62% amino acid content. It not only contains eight major amino acids, but also all essential fatty acids required for complete nutrition. Spirulina is an amazing anti oxidant. I cant recommend this stuff enough and getting more of it in your own diet will do nothing but help. Much like probiotic Lactobacteria Rhamnosis GG the effect is more pronounced in fish than humans but is still great for both species. Your fish will be more colorful and disease resistant.


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## logisticsguy

Oh I forgot to mention this. Even though my tanks are cycled, I often have to deal with uncycled spawn tubs or jars when pulling males from the spawn and into 1g containers. This is when the aq salt becomes more imperative for nitrite control.

Also just noticed I need to make it clear that Epson salt will increase hardness as it contains Magnesium.


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## beautiful Betta

I understand what your saying for helping to prevent your fish from parasites, pathogens etc.. But my understanding of such things is that eventually those things will also adapt, if your fish down the line that have never really had to deal with said pathogens, parasites at all, they could potentially have zero natural immune system to such things. Plus if something does take hold you are practically dealing with a super bug.

Plus the other thing to consider is if the fish are used to being in an environment where they have had to have very little immune system themselves then said fish are sold to someone who doesn't keep them the same. Then they may well just die in someone else's care.

The same thing over here is common in blue Gouldian's a mutation of the normal, but thrives in other countries a bird my ex husband tired to breed, they literally have to be on Antibiotics to not drop dead, they are so weak here it is unbelievable. considering the Gouldian originates from here they should be the strongest. He only got one blue chick to adulthood she died a year later. All other chicks died at fledgling stage. One good father died during the feeding process took too much out of him he was separated to try and help him recover but the hen had to take over alone then. He died a few days later. The mother managed to get chicks to fledging alone they all died not long after that. He gave up in the end found it to upsetting to see them all die no matter what he did. And yes we even gave them antibiotics if it was going to prevent them from death, they were pets after all, and no one wants to see them just die. So I can understand why you use the salt, but it is a difficult one when you think of the long term ramifications it could bring about down the line.


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## logisticsguy

I understand what your saying Bb. Fish with a strong immune systems are the best defence against illness imo. Weak fish can easily pick up a secondary infection and Kaput they are done. Bacteria does not adapt well to changes in salinity. Even over long periods of time. Pathogens adapt to antibiotics rather quickly by comparison which is why we see antibiotic resistant strains in aquaculture and agriculture. We don't hear much talk about salt resistant strains however some strains of mycobacteria have a cell wall so tough they can resist antibiotics and salinity very well which makes them so dangerous for fish and people. More betta fish are infected with myco than many people realize. There will be articles about this in the coming issues of Flare. I would use antibiotics as a last resort after an infection survived both salinity variations and MB or Paraguard dips. So far I haven't had the need for any antibiotics since changing practices. I would rather prevent than medicate any day. Not coincidentally many of the meds fish keepers use are loaded with salt as a main or secondary ingredient.

Your point is a that fish with a strong immune system from reduced bacteria (slightly salted) environment could be more susceptible when it arrives at a not salted higher bacteria environment. Interesting. I never thought about it before and there could be validly to that theory. However, my bet is that the fish from a better environment would have a larger chance of survival and a longer life and not be bringing bad bacteria into an aquarium in the first place. These are all just my humble non super educated opinions.


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## beautiful Betta

Yes, but you never kept your fish in bad conditions, so you cant say the lack of death rate is because of cleaner better conditions, because your fish were kept in excellent conditions, but now you have almost sterile conditions, and pretty much no deaths, but are those fish going into your new lines going to be the strong really healthy ones, its horrible to say it but a lot can be said for survival of the fittest when it come to breeding strong lines in anything.

Just everything adapts in time. Just my concern would be how well will the fish cope if and when something hits if they have been kept in almost sterile water with no need of hardly any immune system. That would be my concern. But I do understand that you don't like seeing the deaths you were seeing.


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## Mahsfish

I know I don't belong in this conversation. I'm only in highschool and I'm still learning all this stuff on the side of school. But just to add my two cents on the topic. 

About adaptation. In my opinion and education, having the bettas or any fish adapt to living in poor conditions and developing strong immune system would take a decently long time. 

And to do so it would have to be slowly getting worse and worse water. And it would take generations. As I guess you would have to be spawning the fish in poor water and raising them in it so that its only survival of the fittest and the fish with the strongest immune systems so it could be passed on. But by doing this you risk losing many fish. And you'll also stunt the growth of the fish. Making it take even longer.


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## Hallyx

It's true that strong, healthy fish have good immune systems. I'm not sure raising fish in a degraded environment would produce robust fish. With a strong immune system, a fish is less likely to succumb to any number of common maladies that lie dormant in their systems or extant in the tank.

Thank you for your excellent explanation of the (non) effect of salt on pH.

Your spirulina pitch is very convincing. I should get back into the habit of taking it myself, as well as feeding it to my fish.


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## beautiful Betta

I am not saying its ok to raise them in poor conditions, I don't know why someone thought I am saying that. But the use of the salt does create a more sterile environment, than having a clean tank with no salt. The tank with no salt isn't a bad environment just not sterile. But having a almost sterile environment for fish to grow in will mean that they will need hardly no Immune system to grow and thrive, and so all fish will survive regardless if they were the weaker ones or not. Plus in that environment fish that would have had a stronger immune system in normal conditions over time may well lose that for the fact it is not needed, so in theory over time could potentially breed weaker fish with lower natural immune systems. 

I hope that makes sense.


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## Stone

My 2 cents about myco, myco is a risk with any fish you buy, and it is most likely in your tank, it is the concentration that counts, now keeping that in mind you have good bacteria and bad bacteria, most bad bacteria is resistant to most sterilizing methods, where as the good bacteria dies really easy,now keeping that in mind, the good bacteria will out compete the bad for resources the bad tend to not grow as fast, so here is the point, if you try to keep your tanks superduper clean but do not sterilize something properly with the right methods you may lave myco in the tank and you have killed off it's competition the good bateria, so now it is set up for an outbreak, this is what happens to breeders who try to keep things squeaky clean but do not properly sterilize something just one time....myco is most likely in your tap water, it is well everywhere, now using UV as a method to control bacteria seems to be a bit better, the good bacteria is more resistant to UV than myco is. I will somewhat agree that keeping fish in a super clean conditions might not be good for them, they will not build up their own natural immunity and develop antibodies to things, but if the fish is strong healthy and robust it will most likely be able to fight off an infection, this is almost the which came first argument the chicken or the egg.....this is one of those subjects that is a matter of opinion.


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## hrutan

Definitely a matter of opinion, but what this discussion brings to mind for me is the increase of allergies in the human population.

We have a generation of children and young adults that grew up in a very clean environment - not being permitted to play outside, or having to wash up with antibacterial soap right away, not making mud pies, not having contact with many (or in some cases any) animals. Pest free houses, ect. Everything is antibacterial this and that.

The incidence of childhood allergies is now greater than it used to be. The rate of allergy increase is correlated with the cleanliness in their environment. While correlation does not equal causation, there is a growing body of scientific evidence that suggests that the increased allergies - the overreaction of the child's immune system to normal events - may have been caused by the lack of stimulus to the child's immune system when they were young, combined with them not being permitted to build good gut bacteria by crawling around/playing in a less clean (not dirty, just...less clean) environment as babies.

Evidence does not mean proof as of yet, but I am a proponent of the hygiene hypothesis. Here's some interesting reading on the subject:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db121.htm

http://fooddrugallergy.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=40

This last one is about peanut allergies. It's really long, but basically comes down to this: We used to think that early exposure to peanuts "sensitized" a child's immune system to peanuts, and therefore increased their chances of this deadly allergy. It turns out to be the opposite - when mothers eat a lot of nuts during pregnancy and nursing, their child is less likely to be allergic. The early introduction effect also holds true for milk and eggs, and likely can be extended to other common allergens.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/...determine-a-cause/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

EDITED to add: It seems to me that we should keep everything clean, but not _too _clean.


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## Hallyx

This is a well-mannered, informative and incisive discussion, well-worthy of this forum. But it is taking up a lot of room on logisticguy's personal journal thread. Plus, it would be valuable if opened up and shared with a wider audience.

I can ask to have it moved to its own thread if you'd like, CJ.


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## logisticsguy

You can move it if you want to Hallyx. I don't mind discussing these things here. I wouldn't consider a low dose salt environment completely sterile there are still lots of things going on in my aquariums. One quick look at a swab from my tanks though a microscope shows activity. So essentially just trying to keep an environment where the fish are not overwhelmed by pathogens and the immune system is on high. I start early in 1st week of life with probiotics added to nhbbs. Been doing this for over a year and my fry grow at a quicker rate, about 10% faster than normal. This really doesn't matter to most but with giants size does matter when selling. Probiotics and spirulina create more t cells in the blood each via a different mechanism. This has helped me avoid using any antibiotics which are often dosed improperly and used for too short of time which then contributes to the growing resistance problem. The amount of antibiotics being used by certain Thai breeders is ridiculous and often used as a preventative before anything even shows up. Some strains of columnaris are now very resistant but are easily destroyed by fish baths using a little Aq salt and Methylene Blue or Paraguard (Malachite green). Also using antibiotics can wipe out the good bacteria in the fish gut leaving them in a weakened immune system. My own last antibiotic prescription came with another prescription for Florastor (probiotic) for this very reason.


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## hrutan

It's been a fascinating discussion. By the way, I didn't mention it before, but I _love _that you cite your sources, logisticsguy.

The discussion went so fast that I missed a full page without realizing it. So, I went back until I found stuff that was unfamiliar, and found your initial post about salt, and then decided to do some hunting online. Unfortunately, all I could find was that appropriately dosed aquarium salt won't harm the biological filter. There wasn't much that I could find (at least in a quick search) about the beneficial bacteria that is part of the fish's immune system itself - a prime example being gut bacteria. That's my big issue of curiosity.

Since gut bacteria is only just being understood in the human body, it's not that much of a surprise that there isn't a whole lot of easily available data on aquarium fish...

We do know that some strains of bacteria are sensitive about salt, and others don't care.

So! With that in mind - and forgive me if you answered this and I didn't understand - do you have any concerns about constant exposure to AQ salt having any effects on the gut bacteria of your fish (long term or cross-generational), or do you believe that the probiotics you're dosing your fish with will offset any ill effects of the salt?


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## logisticsguy

Very good question hrutan! The addition of the aq salt at correct dose does not make the fish itself much saltier on the inside. Many of the breeders I know using salt with no additional probiotics have had no ill effects at all. The gut bacteria are a hardy bunch but the antibiotics can really do a number on them. The use of aquarium salt has been going on for decades and I cant find any evidence yet that its use causes any long term or cross generational damage to the fish. It may well exist I just have not come across any. Use of aq salt at higher doses than recommended for long period of time can cause liver and kidney issues. Used correctly it has been proven to be a safe and useful product. At 1 tsp per 5 gallon the salinity level is still lower than the fish natural environment in the streams of Thailand. Many Thai breeders add salt as well. Most North American tap water is almost devoid of salt. Lots in our food for sure but little in the water.


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## hrutan

logisticsguy said:


> At 1 tsp per 5 gallon the salinity level is still lower than the fish natural environment in the streams of Thailand.


Oh, _really_? That information makes me a lot more comfortable. I'm hoping to breed in a couple of years. Right now I'm at the "assimilating information" step.  Anything that I come across to help fry survival rates and general stock health is of great interest. So, thank you.

Also, my apologies for any undue derailment of your journal. :-D


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## logisticsguy

hrutan said:


> Oh, _really_? That information makes me a lot more comfortable. I'm hoping to breed in a couple of years. Right now I'm at the "assimilating information" step.  Anything that I come across to help fry survival rates and general stock health is of great interest. So, thank you.
> 
> Also, my apologies for any undue derailment of your journal. :-D


Haha no worries. A few years ago I in exactly the same position of *assimilating information* before I started breeding. This site helped me greatly getting started and I was lucky enough to find some good people to help me along. Ive had the benefit of some time to try things on my own and do comparison studies. Along the way I dealt with diseases and had to research my butt off to try and save fish I had both a financial and emotional stake in. A knowledge of the basics readily available here at bettafish. Just passing on my experience here. I am by no means an expert Phd Dr Fish or anything and a when it comes to show standards form and tail ect. I have a lot to learn.

My advice is to research 5 things and draw your own conclusions as there are so many differing opinions about fish care. In a nutshell my Top 5 things 

1. Use 1 tsp salt per 5 gallons. No more. Use salinity variations once in a while ie skip aq salt for a water change once per month or use a temporary increase if you see something you don't like on your fish. 

2. Learn about using fish baths and dips in hospital containers. Every fish keeper should have Methylene blue on hand especially for new fish, rescue fish or imported fish. 

3. Spirulina. See rant above. 

4. Quarantine everything even plants for 21 days and keep separate hoses, nets, turkey basters apart from the home boys. All this stuff should be kept in a bucket of heavily salted water. 

5. Probiotics. This stuff works. Lactobacteria Rhamnosis GG is what I studied on my own fish. Sprinkle some Culturelle on a few bloodworms once in awhile.

In the last 500 fry born here Ive had 1 die and it was pretty weak from the start. There are many ways to keep these fish. This is just my experience with them and Im perfectly ok with people who do things differently we are all still learning everyday. 

I found this old post interesting. More people should use the search function at this site btw.

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=255001


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## logisticsguy

Today is the last day for the Houdini Pumpkin spawn. Males have all been jarred. This group was a pleasure to raise. Here are some pics before they all go separate ways at 11 weeks. Graduation photos.


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## logisticsguy

Here are a couple pics of 4 week old Zues x Chi spawn.


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## MattsBettas

Are all of the males from Houdini's spawn sold?


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## logisticsguy

I should have 2 males available Matt. Im still not 100% gender sure yet on one. Only had 4 males and 7 females in his first spawn. I could get some pics of those boys up in a few days. The 2nd Houdini spawn will turn out better I think with the addition of Saturns genes to the pool. They are 5 weeks old now could go in a few weeks easily to you if you want to wait and have a much wider selection. Maybe trade for a couple of your fish. :-D Here a few pics of Houdini 2nd spawn.


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## logisticsguy

For sale. 90 day old tail damaged male. Medium sized.


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## logisticsguy

This large girl is 12 weeks old and for sale.



















Gilligans torn fin is starting to grow back.



















The Giant HMPK spawn doing ok. The ram91 giant gene appears to be strong. Incredible appetites.










The long fin giant fry are a little smaller but have much more color development.










No much news but tonight Cookie 2 was released in a spawn tub with Zues so I am excited about that.


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## EvaJupiterSkies

Holy beautiful fish everywhere! Why can I not have more tanks? Why am I not in Canada? AHHHH!


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## Fenghuang

I second Eva. I am envious of all the Canadians who can have one of your fish in one of their tanks.


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## logisticsguy

EvaJupiterSkies said:


> Holy beautiful fish everywhere! Why can I not have more tanks? Why am I not in Canada? AHHHH!


Thanks EvaJupiterskies. I need more tanks myself but my adult children keep moving back home making my own fish room just a dream. Speaking of dreams, I keep having betta fish dreams while sleeping some of them are very weird and Im a fish. Psychologically damaged I am.



Fenghuang said:


> I second Eva. I am envious of all the Canadians who can have one of your fish in one of their tanks.


Feng I so wish the border shipping wasn't such a pain. A USA breeder friend and I wanted to trade a few fish for breeding but when we priced it out it was crazy expensive. Yet my daughter gets stuff sent from China for one dollar how the heck does that work. 

A little Friday fish giggle.


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## EvaJupiterSkies

Are betta related dreams a theme lately or what? I keep having dreams about acquiring more bettas... whether it's a whole closet full of them, wandering through a store and buying them, or just having a whole lot of them everywhere. I haven't been an actual fish yet though.


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## MattsBettas

I don't even get why we can't ship over the border, I mean I know they have safety reasons but I seriously doubt shipping tropical fish to one another will cause any issues whatsoever. I would have such beautiful fish if borders weren't an issue. 

I'll be in Banff next week... Which involves a pass through Calgary...


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## logisticsguy

You should stop by and take a look at the wee fishes Matt! 

Its always nice to visit with you.


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## MattsBettas

Your fishroom is always a highlight of a trip down there . If you have any males available, especially from Houndini, let me know. Watch my journal, I'll be putting up pictures by the end of the day and you can let me know on the off chance you want anything.


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## logisticsguy

Awesome. I will keep an eye on your journal Matt. All the males from Houdini 2nd spawn are still here and you can have your choice. They are super hyper and colorful but only about 6 weeks old which would be no problem for an experienced keeper like yourself. I will get some pics of that spawn up soon they are growing well but they need to moved to a bigger tank this weekend. The largest boy needs his own apartment already.


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## logisticsguy

Update on the 6 week old Giant HMPK Zues spawn.


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## Stone

I have actually watched the import inspection process, yeah I saw the federal inspector "inspect" 250 fish in about 20 minutes total at around a dollar a pop, and well most of the inspection involved was looking at the paperwork and collecting the fee, maybe 3 minutes looking at the fish, so I would argue safety is not the issue, how to get more money is the real issue, hell if a sick fish can slip by people who have been in the hobby for years, I know I look closely at any fish I buy and a sick one here or there gets by. I agree if the shipping process from canada to here was not so bad and expensive I would have some of your males and a 40 breeder sorority of girls.


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## logisticsguy

The funny thing is that I would be better off being located in Thailand when it comes to shipping to the US. Last night I took some pics of the 4 males from Houdini 1st spawn. Why am I producing more females than males? I just don't understand. I thought the first one was female but alas he is all boy just chunky.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

I am truly, madly, deeply in love with boy #3 there. -laments-


----------



## MattsBettas

Beautiful, CJ. How are the fish from his second spawn? And who was the mom?


----------



## logisticsguy

The fish from the second spawn are doing great. I will post up some pics of them later today or tomorrow. The mom of his second spawn is SP005. She is a half giant female whose mom was Pumpkin and dad was giant Saturn. 

SP005


----------



## InStitches

looking good!


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is an update on Houdini 2nd spawn with SP005. I love fry at this stage the most.


----------



## Stone

Beauties!!!


----------



## MattsBettas

Very nice, mom has amazing form too. Do any of the fry in the Houndini x SP005 spawn not show red, just out of curiosity? 

They really look great, I'm very excited to get one. I'll PM you .


----------



## logisticsguy

Giant Orange HMPK x Giant Koi HMPK

I am super excited about this pair of giants. They have been conditioning for a week and lots of flirtatious fish behaviour so here we go. They are playing tag right now I am so hoping this all goes well because I really like both of these fish.


----------



## Tress

Gosh that girl is gorgeous... I'm sure they'll make a lovely bunch of babies


----------



## Hallyx

Hard to remember those are giants, with all that lush HM finnage. Plus the great body lines and proportions. 

It reflect good selection by the breeder. Plus good technique and husbandry. 
Congratulations.


----------



## hrutan

Those two are simply stunning.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Very nice, mom has amazing form too. Do any of the fry in the Houndini x SP005 spawn not show red, just out of curiosity?
> 
> They really look great, I'm very excited to get one. I'll PM you .


There are a few with no red more yellow with light blue or purple. I am looking forward to the visit Matt.



Hallyx said:


> Hard to remember those are giants, with all that lush HM finnage. Plus the great body lines and proportions.
> 
> It reflect good selection by the breeder. Plus good technique and husbandry.
> Congratulations.


Thank you Hallyx. I appreciate that a lot. its taken some time to get to this point and a long way to go yet, but we are finally seeing some progress with this project. Things are a lot more fun now that im not constantly chasing diseases. Some of my fish still have that giant look in the face and thick body which is totally ok with me because I kinda like that and the giants have their own unique character about them which is hard to explain unless you have had one.



hrutan said:


> Those two are simply stunning.


Yeah Im really excited about that pair. So far no spawning yet but its getting close Cookie 2 is going under the nest now but panics and swims away to her hide. I just need to be patient as she is a 1st timer. Zues is a relentless romantic he never stops courting until the job is done. Very good male that way, and his babies seem to grow large very quickly. 

My friend loaned me 2 aquastar white EE HM to try to get them to spawn as she was not having any luck and they are just beauties. After 3 failed tries finally success. Looks like 100 plus free swimmers in the tub. They are not giants but Im really excited about this batch as parents are gorgeous with those aquastar genetics.


----------



## logisticsguy

So this is how my Thai giant breeder friend cultures giants. Easy to change water and you can keep quite a few in a single grow out pond. Wish I had a pond lol.


----------



## Stone

I can see you plotting and planning with a kiddie pool, hmm kiddie pool....


----------



## hrutan

Huh. That setup is intriguing, but...no problems with breakage?


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> I can see you plotting and planning with a kiddie pool, hmm kiddie pool....


Haha yeah I can see that too. Ive been showing the wife some nice goldfish ponds with nice landscaping and a small waterfall. She caught on right away accusing me of just wanting a cool spot for betta. I wouldn't do that of course! :-D



hrutan said:


> Huh. That setup is intriguing, but...no problems with breakage?


It is certainly different. Apparently it works quite well and if a betta gets out they just fish him out with a net.


----------



## logisticsguy

I just had a great visit with Matt. We could talk betta all day long.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets

Who needs to drool over Aquabid photos? I'll just come here and look at your fish. 

As for producing more females than males.... Could it be temperature or pH dependent? It is in some species, but I don't know about bettas.


----------



## logisticsguy

Well it is great to see you again LittleBlueFishlets. I think the temperature may have something to do with the high number of females. Indjo mentioned something about it but I cant remember the details. 

The giant koi x giant hmpk spawn called off. Cookie 2 kicked Zues butt and found him hiding in the corner. Arrrgghhhh so frustrating with these giant female koi they can get pretty mean. So will recondition them and try again in a week or two. Poor Zues looks pretty down about getting thumped by a girl. Injured pride I think. How could she resist? how?

The white dumbo spawn looking good so far. No deaths and they are munching on bbs now so hopefully in the clear.


----------



## MattsBettas

Thanks for the fish and the chat . 

A lot of species are temperature dependent, it would definitely make sense. That, or it could be the pH as well... That would also make sense since I tend to end up with a ton more females and we have very similar water. 

Sorry to hear about the giant spawn failing, hopefully you'll get something from them soon... Like I said when we were talking that pair could throw some neat stuff.

I am super excited about the whites, not sure if you put any pictures of them up here but their parents are absolutely amazing fish with nice fins and a pure, bright white... They're from one of the most well recognized Asian breeder as well. CJ, you might as well put me on the list for a pair of those right now... I can't see myself being able to resist. I've always wanted to start a white line... 

Anyways, I have to say it again... Logisticsguy is a great breeder with awesome looking and extremely healthy fish, you really can't go wrong with his stock... Couldn't suggest buying from him more, if you can of course. Being a Canadian actually does pay off sometimes :lol:.


----------



## Stone

In bird, reptiles, amphibians,and a lot of fish species temp has a huge effect on the M/F ratio but yeah I have no clue where to find specific data on betta that is reliable. In crocs cooler temps produce more males, in alligators cooler and warmer is more females where the intermediate will produce more males, So maybe experiment a little or dig hard for solid research


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes to more research! So Im very interested in a fairly new product. I've heard about some very impressive results from Nualgia Aquarium from a fellow breeder. In a way its revolutionary in its chemistry. Kills bad algae, creates a better mineral balance and redox. By product of the process is Zooplankton which is a natural food for betta. Check it out. If you have used this how have the results been? My order is just in so it will be a couple weeks before I can try it and do a comparison study.

Nualgi Aquarium - A Clean Tank is a Beautiful Tank


----------



## Pippin

My parents have rejected my idea of moving to Canada, so I can get some of these fish. They are really pretty. And I think that in humans, the default brain is female. I don't know if that would apply to fish, but you never know.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is the best pic I could get of the White HM EE spawn. They are already much whiter than my other fry ever were its like they start out white! The plastic tubs are awful for pics but I find I have better luck with them rather than spawning in a glass aquarium.


----------



## Stone

I am asking on the planted tank forum about the Nualgi Aquarium, We will see if anyone on there has used it and their results, I am a bit of a skeptic on this one but we will see.


----------



## MattsBettas

Awesome, CJ... I can't wait until those grow up, they're the nicest whites I've seen in a while. You should post pictures of the parents sometime .


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is a couple pics of the White EE HM parents. I should have taken pics before the spawn both have a little damage.



















Update on the 8 week old 3/4 giant spawn HSPOO5.





































8 week update for the ZC spawn. Moved into the bigger growout and loving it.


----------



## MattsBettas

Very nice, love the pictures and the fish. Spawns look good and I'm sure all of those little orange babies will enjoy your big tank, they sure look like they fill it up. Houdini Jr's siblings look great too ;-). 

If it's ok with you, I'm totally ending up with some of those whites... I mean, look at mom's form! Is it ok if I reserve a pair right now? 

I think you're the only person who could make me love halfmoons again.


----------



## logisticsguy

You bet Matt. Your 1st on the list. I had a hard time with the photos of the whites, not sure they really do them justice but you can see aquastars work with form for sure. A cold front low pressure blew in and now the giant koi girl that didn't want to spawn suddenly desperately wanted back in the spawn tank with Zues so I had to let that happen. Its funny how more space made both spawns take a little jump in size. 

So the BBC is having a IBC level betta show next year in Burlington May long weekend. President of the IBC will be a judge and also be speaking. Im hoping to improve a couple lines before the show and bring some to the auction as well. Plus I hope to bring a few new ones back with me.


----------



## logisticsguy

Today was the start of making my own fish food. Im using salmon, krill, garlic, spirulina, Vitachem, Nourish and Lactobacteria GG (Probiotic). Lots of spirulina here is why. 

http://fish-etc.com/knowledge/spirulina-why-you-should-feed-fish


----------



## MattsBettas

An IBC show in Canada, wow! If I'm really on top of things I could have two or three generations of my lines done by then, and might actually have something worth sending to the show... That would be cool. Of course there's like no way I could physically be there, but oh well. It's also combined with the CAOAC convention, which would be exciting. 

You're fish food sounds awesome by the way.


----------



## Hallyx

Question about your fish-food, CJ. Do Betta eat enough fish to include it as a staple in your food? I'd think ground mosquito would be the thing.

Sounds tasty, by the way. Grilled with a side of Fava beans and a nice Chianti.


----------



## Stone

Ok on this stuff Nualgi Aquarium I have seen very little feedback on forums and what I have seen it's 50/50, I am guessing if it was as good as the claims it would have taken off like wild fire, but maybe not enough of the right people have tried it, but it has been around for 8 months or so, If I could get a free sample I would try it. I am not willing to buy something that might just be snake oil for lack of a better term some of what they say sounds good but them again I don't know why you would want to promote diatoms and basically the micro part of it is what micro fert mixes are for......so I am going to say it is snake oil


----------



## Tress

Sadly I don't think I could convince my mom to make the 9 hour drive down to Burlington, but you never know. That would be awesome though, I hope I find a way to go if to just drool over all the gorgeous bettas


----------



## logisticsguy

Hallyx said:


> Question about your fish-food, CJ. Do Betta eat enough fish to include it as a staple in your food? I'd think ground mosquito would be the thing.
> 
> Sounds tasty, by the way. Grilled with a side of Fava beans and a nice Chianti.


I have been using salmon as a base mostly because I can get it very cheap (my son is a seafood manager) and it seems to be ok but I am looking around for an even better alternative. Ive already made a few changes to the recipe and fine tuning it. Repashy gel seems to make it easy to use in a cube form. I just reuse the plastics from frozen brine shrimps and bloodworms. Ground mosquito would be terrific addition, I have started to add a little Seachem Nutridiet Fly larvae to the mix. Please do not tell my wife what I have been putting in her blender.



Stone said:


> Ok on this stuff Nualgi Aquarium I have seen very little feedback on forums and what I have seen it's 50/50, I am guessing if it was as good as the claims it would have taken off like wild fire, but maybe not enough of the right people have tried it, but it has been around for 8 months or so, If I could get a free sample I would try it. I am not willing to buy something that might just be snake oil for lack of a better term some of what they say sounds good but them again I don't know why you would want to promote diatoms and basically the micro part of it is what micro fert mixes are for......so I am going to say it is snake oil


Yeah I am still on the fence on this product. At this point I would have to agree with you Stone. Ive ordered it but it still hasn't arrived. Mixed reviews and I still do not totally understand the science behind it yet. Going to wait and see it is very new so hopefully more betta people can review the info, I am not sure it will do anything but my breeder friend did say that a chronic sickly fish was recovering while it was being used. No idea why though lol.



Tress said:


> Sadly I don't think I could convince my mom to make the 9 hour drive down to Burlington, but you never know. That would be awesome though, I hope I find a way to go if to just drool over all the gorgeous bettas


Thanks Tress. Its a long flight across the country for me but I really want to attend so I can meet other betta nuts from all over Canada. I want to bring some good giants and a few fish from the white EE line to the show. 

Man I need another grow out set up soon. Fry are growing very fast despite my less than ideal water changing, I am not as diligent as I used to be with this as I am so stupid busy at work. 

Coming up: 10 tips for raising Giants.


----------



## BlueSky99

Lovely bettas you've got. I'll be subscribing to this thread


----------



## logisticsguy

The second batch of white EE started to hatch today. What a lovely site. The giant x giant ( Zues and Cookie 2) appears to be getting nowhere for the 3rd time. Now they are acting like best buddies. Patience. 

If you look close you can see a few of the fry that hatched today.










The best of friends giant hmpk pair.



















What is the point of having a 55g grow out when they all hang in one corner? Silly fish.


----------



## Tress

logisticsguy said:


> Thanks Tress. Its a long flight across the country for me but I really want to attend so I can meet other betta nuts from all over Canada. I want to bring some good giants and a few fish from the white EE line to the show.


Hey, on your way to the show do you think you could drop off a white EE or two? Just attach little parachutes, probably faster and safer than mailing them. (kidding of course)

Maybe I'll manage to save up enough to go to the show by then, and hopefully have my other tanks fixed/built over the winter (gotta have something to do to prevent cabin fever).

Did you guys get any of that snow?


----------



## logisticsguy

A major disaster for all the trees in my city. The heavy wet snow just crushed them because all the leaves were still on the trees. Huge mess. Trees fell all along our street. Traffic lights were out everywhere and 30,000 were without power.

I can air drop some fishies Tress. Funny mental visual there lol

Courtesy Morgan Ruttle who is at the EBS show right now.


----------



## hrutan

Yowch, that's quite a mess to clean up.


----------



## logisticsguy

George the goldfish gets brain surgery. I learned a couple things to assist me in doing my own surgeries. 


https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/24993960/tricky-operation-to-save-sick-goldfish/


----------



## logisticsguy

The video made me aware of mistakes Ive made when doing my own Dr. Boris Von Quack backyard fish operations. 1. Anesthetics 2. Flowing tank water via tube through mouth and over gills properly. Closing the wound, very difficult I need smaller closing tools and/or skin/scale glue.


----------



## logisticsguy

A few months ago there was some debate as to whether or not fish felt pain or not. If they don't feel pain why would they need anesthetics for surgery? Imho they do certainly feel pain, maybe differently than we do but they do. That debate should be over because all the evidence Ive seen suggests fish indeed do feel pain.


----------



## Stone

logisticsguy said:


> A few months ago there was some debate as to whether or not fish felt pain or not. If they don't feel pain why would they need anesthetics for surgery? Imho they do certainly feel pain, maybe differently than we do but they do. That debate should be over because all the evidence Ive seen suggests fish indeed do feel pain.


No doubt in my mind that they feel pain, the science is actually catching up and debunking that myth along with the one with lobsters and so on.

On a side note you can set up like a drop acclumating tube to use during fish surgery just yeah not a drop and slow flow if you do not have someone to assist if you have someone to assist a turkey baster or medicine dropper will work. Luckily the few times I have had to do it it was always stuff that could be done quickly I can't imagine doing a surgery for an hour. I wonder if the medical grade superglue the "liquid stitch" would work for closing up wounds


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes the medical grade liquid stitch would be the way to go I think Stone. If one of my fish gets a brain tumor I don't like their chances of survival with me at the controls. Betta are even smaller so anything more than an external growth or stomach tumor would be way beyond me. We had an egg impacted female turn out ok here after a minor operation so that was lucky on her part. Ive had really healthy fish for awhile so that's been a blessing (knocks on wood).

Next week I will have a big cheap sale on betta. Half moons, male female and baby. All will carry giant gene but who knows how big they will get. Lots of variety and I can ship anywhere in Canada. 

I like how the Singapore show has a class just for Giants. I hope the IBC shows in USA and Canada start doing this as well. Totally biased campaigning for class E.


----------



## Stone

Giants over there seem to be a bigger deal than over here, well other than when they first arrived and were winning a lot of the show, I agree they need their own class. I have seen a few stunners on AB in the past few weeks and at the betta shop


----------



## logisticsguy

Gilligan was just moved to a new tank he seems to like it.


----------



## logisticsguy

HPs5 spawn 3 months old. Get along very well this batch. For some reason if you add a few plakats they are less nippy, calms them down a little. I have no idea why.


----------



## Tress

Gillian is such a pretty boy  

and your spawn is looking lovely too, interesting that they are behaving so well!


----------



## sharkettelaw1

those are some of the prettiest bettas i have ever seen


----------



## autojoy

Lovely fish!!! Your photos are great. Gilligan is so regal.


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks guys.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## Pandanke

HP010 and HP011 are beautiful  The female is especially nice, but I love the edging on the boy.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## sharkettelaw1

those females! Are out of this world :/ that is so beautiful


----------



## Fenghuang

LG, your bettas are some of the most beautiful fish I have ever seen in my life.


----------



## MattsBettas

HP013 is so beautiful (as are the rest, she just stands out). I can sure tell what spawn they're from .


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

HP011... -grabby hands- Beautiful!


----------



## logisticsguy

sharkettelaw1 said:


> those females! Are out of this world :/ that is so beautiful


Thanks sharkettelaw1! I like females just as much as males. Im trying to figure out which girl gets to breed with Gilligan.



Fenghuang said:


> LG, your bettas are some of the most beautiful fish I have ever seen in my life.


Aww Thanks Fenghuang. You see a lot of fish so me and the feeshies really appreciate the complement. :-D



MattsBettas said:


> HP013 is so beautiful (as are the rest, she just stands out). I can sure tell what spawn they're from .


You have one terrific fish eye Matt. She stands out from others because she was adopted (shh don't tell her). She is from a failed spawn where all eggs /fry were eaten but her so she was added to the other spawn. She is the only decendant from the green giant girl I got with Cookie and she is getting really big.



EvaJupiterSkies said:


> HP011... -grabby hands- Beautiful!


That fish is such a character. He is tiny compared to all the others in the spawn just a little guy with big fins. What a flare show this guy puts on, a real showman. He is too small for my breeding goals so looking for a good home for him where his flash and flare is appreciated. Free.


----------



## Tress

logisticsguy said:


> You have one terrific fish eye Matt. She stands out from others because she was adopted (shh don't tell her). She is from a failed spawn where all eggs /fry were eaten but her so she was added to the other spawn. She is the only decendant from the green giant girl I got with Cookie and she is getting really big.


 Lambchop had a baby? I thought you got nothing from that spawn. She's cute!


----------



## BlueLacee

Beautiful. I want...


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

logisticsguy said:


> That fish is such a character. He is tiny compared to all the others in the spawn just a little guy with big fins. What a flare show this guy puts on, a real showman. He is too small for my breeding goals so looking for a good home for him where his flash and flare is appreciated. Free.


Why do we live in separate countries? I weep. I hope he goes somewhere where he'll be crazy loved and doted on.


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Lambchop had a baby? I thought you got nothing from that spawn. She's cute!


She had 3 babies after many fails. They were the 3 amigos spawn. One female was the little green terror which I gave to a friend after a spawn attempt with Saturn which yielded only 1 fry the poorly named HP013. So she is Lambchops granddaughter. Im thinking about pairing her with Zues but a greenish x orange may be unwise lol so any advice about such a pairing is appreciated.



BlueLacee said:


> Beautiful. I want...


Thanks BlueLacee!



EvaJupiterSkies said:


> Why do we live in separate countries? I weep. I hope he goes somewhere where he'll be crazy loved and doted on.


Yeah I know the border shipping thing stinks. However maybe you could vacation in Canada its nice here and I live very close to Banff.  I will find a good home for him he isn't going to the petstore that's for sure. 

Lots of news I had to start pulling males from the Zues Chi spawn. They all still get along well but one boy started breeding behaviour in the back of the growout so he is on his own now. this means I have lots of jarring to do and the fry are huge for 12 weeks. 
I had an empty spawn tub and couldn't resist putting Gilligan in with a match sibling and just super excited about this pair. From my view they are the best fish for quality Ive ever had and each generation (6x) gets a teensy weensy bit better.  
On a sad note the 1st spawn of white HMs had a genetic problem or I screwed up badly very early on Im just not sure what happened. Tried the pair again and have a 3 week old batch that looks ok so far. 

The freshly pulled ZC001 trouble maker.


----------



## Tress

Wow he's very lovely!

Also very sad that the 1st spawn had issues


----------



## logisticsguy

Yay! I put Gilligan and HP009f in the spawn tub because the flare sessions went so well. They quickly spawned and she was removed no not a scratch. Gilligan is now really really busy catching falling fry. They are falling fast poor guy and he is doing his best. I am so excited about this pair. 

The Zues Chi spawn is getting nippy so a few males have already been pulled. I need more jars today so off to get them and more heat tape. My friend just returned from Thailand where she visited some of the more famous breeders. Very interesting conversation and maybe some new ways of doing things learned.


----------



## DaytonBetta

Congratulations! That's exciting.


----------



## sharkettelaw1

out of curiosity, how many of them landed up being giant? Or do you have to inbreed them to produce giants? I had a giant myself, and it outlived all my other bettas by quite some distance.


----------



## logisticsguy

That is a terrific question. It breaks down roughly like this with giants. The giant gene needs to be present in both parents to produce giants.

Giant x Giant = 20-40% Giants

Giant x half Giant = 15-25% Giants

half Giant x half giant = 5-15% Giants

My goal has been to get my lines HM genes into a strong giant line that has EE, marble and giant genetics into one with size and decent form and fins. Im only halfway there right now. My giant x half giant spawn has produced about 5 out of 30 fish being giants. 

My gosh Giant koi females have been difficult. Cookie 2 is just like Cookie 1 in that they just do not want to be dominated and end up with the Giant male hiding in the corner after getting beat up. They take no guff and have little fear of males. I just had to pull Zues who is a big tough boy out of the spawn tub, poor boy looks terrified of her. Back to the drawing board.


----------



## sharkettelaw1

my VT female is exactly like that! And no, im not really breeding for VTs, just wanted the eggs out so she doesnt get eggbound since she's a fatty. My black orchid is sooo aggressive, and two days later she ripped his fins off and he went into hiding. She did it twice in fact. But i've read your journal, and although your giants have gotten me very curious, i dont think i could ever do what you do with them. Your fish really are beautiful


----------



## BlueLacee

Oh god, I want the product of your breeding project.


----------



## logisticsguy

Tonight Im trying to figure out how many fish and which ones go to the big fish auction tomorrow morning. I just love fish auctions and will be trying to get some equipment and plants on the cheap. Nirvana for a fish geek like me but I must stay within my teeny budget. I am going to take more juvi fish than I thought because I took a close look at the Gilligan x HP009 spawn and the is at least 500 free swimmers likely closer to 700. I am astonished and usually get small spawns but made some setup/technique changes that look promising.


----------



## Tress

Wow, I think it's big spawn week or something. Another person I watch also got a huge spawn. How was Gilligan as a daddy? Busy busy?


----------



## MattsBettas

I forgot your big auction was this Sunday! Have fun, hope people bid high on what you sell and low on what you want!


----------



## sharkettelaw1

how'd your auction go/going? Timezone sucks! Lol, its nearly midnight here and cant sleep with this white tank light on since my black male has got 150+ fry laying at the bottom and he's trying hard :/ and how are all your spawns going?


----------



## MattsBettas

I was wondering the same thing- what did you pick up, CJ? (sharkettelaw1, it's about six thirty in the evening so the auction should be done by now... If it's anything like it is here, which I assume it would be).

Oh and just a side note, I never leave my light on and they always turn out fine. The males can apparently detect the eggs in the dark. Or, you could just throw a thick towel or two on the tank...


----------



## logisticsguy

Oh my heavens that was a great auction for a fish nerd. Matt the Edmonton guys came down for the show and brought some terrific fish with them. So informative and what great deals. I feel like a bandit. I will make a post to show what I got for 150 bucks tonight, you will not believe it!

The new spawn is filthy with fry and Gilligan is healthy out of the tank and made a new bubblenest already. This guy was born to breed. All the fish and fry are super healthy except the white spawn where maybe 15 fry are ok. I still have no idea what happened but I think a genetic issue or I just really screwed up very early on.

I will be back later to show the bounty.


----------



## Tress

can't wait to hear what you got  

Too bad about the white spawn :/ it might just be something completely out of your control.


----------



## logisticsguy

So here is the haul from todays auction.

3x 25 watt small Italian (high end apparently) heaters. Never enough 25w heaters around here.

1x grindal worm culture. A very nice one I must say.

1x large air pump. My old one is starting to fail so this was perfect.

12x ornaments. Most are nice and Betta or Oxolotl friendly.

5x bags of plants. A couple rare ones. The plants were great. A member of the club has become a master plant person.

1x RO system that makes 70g per week. Im so happy!

1x 75g growout tank. In perfect shape and almost new.

1x Solid stand for the 75g with 2nd level below for more tanks. 

All for 150 bucks. I love auctions and love I fish so what could be better than a fish auction. Wish I had more money to spend there today but managed to stay under budget.


----------



## logisticsguy

The Houdini- SP005 spawn today.


----------



## logisticsguy

The 75g is almost ready for the new inhabitants. I really wish I picked up more of the naja grass at the auction. Tired so tired.


----------



## Tress

Wow! Looks great  I love the rolling hill feel with that awesome green sand. Where do you find all your fancy sand anyways? Do you just use sand in your tanks or do you have soil under it?

Love that hunk of glass(?), the way it distorts the other objects is neat.

Also, you need an award for finding an ACTUAL use for those obnoxious mayoral election signs. Fish tank backdrop. Love it.


----------



## logisticsguy

Thank you Tress. You can get the Crayola Play sand at Canadian Tire but its late season so pickings were slim. I do kinda like the green though. Just pure sand. this sand is non toxic and a but of a pain to clean but I really do like the stuff. Im starting to use my favorite art posters as backgrounds too which makes the tank a little more interesting. Yeah I got the hunk a glass in a box of ornaments from the auction and it looks pretty cool in there. The sand comes in royal blue, green or purple and about 10 bucks a bag. It took 3 bags for the 75g.


----------



## PetMania

That's pretty big haul  The 75 looks so beautiful with the green sand


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is another reason why I add aquarium salt to my tanks at exactly the recommended dose on the box. 1 tablespoon per 5g. Ammonia is present in two forms in water: ammonium and free ammonia. Ammonium is not very toxic to fish, but free ammonia is very toxic. The ratio of dangerous free ammonia to less toxic ammonium depends on the pH, temperature and salinity. As salinity drops, free ammonia increases sharply. Now this is important to me as I have high ph tapwater and run temperature 76-84f. 

Ammonia test kits do not measure the level of free ammonia. Instead, they measure something called total ammonia nitrogen, a combination of free ammonia and ammonium. So how accurate are these tests for true toxic ammonia levels...not accurate at all.

My experience has been much healthier fish using low dose salt. I read articles and researched the subject before doing this. Then I did my own comparative study of my own fish, one group no salt and the other with salt. The difference became obvious after the first month. 

This week I am trying a completely new fish probiotic formula. This is a very different bacteria than the one I usually use and have studied. It is sold at a good local aquarium store near me under a house brand called Fish FX. This is a very promising product, I will try to get some pics and more info about how this could be very helpful at preventing fish disease.


----------



## logisticsguy

Giant HM for sale. This is ZC002m. Very active and healthy. 3.5 months old. Can ship in Canada. 30$


----------



## logisticsguy

Fish FX probiotic. This product is available at Pisces. Its a different strain than the probiotic that I currently use. The research Ive done on probiotics leads me to believe this could be a very useful aquarium additive. I will make a more detailed review on this stuff later this week.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is my friend arnats fish. A young dragon giant and I think he is a beauty.


----------



## Tress

Omg.. he is breathtaking!


----------



## Schmoo

logisticsguy said:


> This is my friend arnats fish. A young dragon giant and I think he is a beauty.


My jaw just dropped.


----------



## logisticsguy

_The un-ionised form of the ammonium ion (NH3) is the most toxic. The toxicity of ammonia to aquatic life is affected by the following physico-chemical parameters: temperature, pH, dissolved oxygen and salinity. In general, ammonia toxicity is greater, the higher the temperature and pH and the lower the levels of dissolved oxygen and salinity._

http://www.ukmarinesac.org.uk/activities/water-quality/wq8_1.htm

Important because free ammonia is likely the number 1 killer of betta fish. Even low level exposure can cause damage to the slimecoat allowing a bacteria to gain a foothold. Exposure also causes stress which can weaken the immune system. So adding a little salt not only helps with nitrites but the even more lethal free ammonia. If you keep betta in a high ph environment adding the recommended dose of aquarium salt to your water helps protect fish from bacteria, ammonia, nitrite and helps with osmo regulation. This is also why even though betta survive well in low oxygen environment thanks to the labyrinth organ it healthier for them with some aeration from a sponge filter, hob or bubbler. Keeping a little salinity, healthy cycle, aeration, lowering ph and liberal use of Prime all help keep my toxic ammonia in check.


----------



## logisticsguy

Chester and SP009


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## MattsBettas

Awesome. How are the whites?


----------



## logisticsguy

Only about 10-12 turned out. They are starting to get prettier and healthier in the big growout. Ive never had so many fry die Matt. It was painful. The other spawns are going really well. I will get some pics of the whites up in the next couple days.


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

Beautiful pictures. I cannot wait to see the whites.


----------



## logisticsguy

Here are some pics of the White spawn. Not many fry but at least some made it and are healthy now.


----------



## Tress

Aww little cuties


----------



## logisticsguy

Poor Chester is overwhelmed by the number of falling fry, poor guy is swimming miles. This will be CSP9 spawn.










The HSP5 Giant spawn. Still showing good growth only 2 males had to be removed so far.










The ZC half giant spawn. Some big fish in this spawn. Many males jarred now due to severe nippiness. 










The GSP9 spawn. Terrible pic because they are still in the clear plastic tub. Largest spawn Ive ever had. A few hundred fry in the tub. Next week they will be moved to a large grow out. Happily no fry deaths so far.


----------



## logisticsguy

Its been a lot of fun to meet some great people here at bettafish. There is a time and place for everything and this site was tremendous when I started out. I was fortunate to have some excellent betta keepers help me along the way. Sadly most of them have moved on but many have been found on facebook in betta groups. Now its my time to move on as it has become difficult. I think members should do more of their own research and not totally rely on getting correct information at this site. This thread will no longer be updated but I will visit once in a while.

I admin for a couple of good facebook betta groups and now have a page for fish.

CJs Betta Farm 
Canadian Betta Lovers
Alberta Betta Lovers

Stop by and say hello anytime.

Cheers,

CJ


----------



## Tress

Aww, I'll miss ya CJ!

Sadly my old computer/dial up can't handle facebook, but I'll check your page out whenever I get a chance


----------



## EvaJupiterSkies

I had to follow you over to Facebook! I am too in love with all your fish, haha. So, if you see an Eva who's liked your page... yep, that's me.


----------



## Stone

Looking at your giants is one of the few reasons I visit this site, pity I will admit I spend way more time on other forums more about plants, this is a good site for people to learn and ask questions, Just not much for more experienced users to do


----------



## sofiaee

Stone said:


> Looking at your giants is one of the few reasons I visit this site, pity I will admit I spend way more time on other forums more about plants, this is a good site for people to learn and ask questions, Just not much for more experienced users to do


Same! 

@logisticsguy I'm not sure if I've posted in this thread or not but it's the only one I follow and your observations about using salt in the aquariums are very interesting. I'm sorry that you won't be posting here but I will look for you on Facebook.

I hope I'm not reading too much into your post but I would agree that there are some who hold steadfast to certain information taken from one source and are just not receptive to any other evidence/experience. Caution is great, and important, and everyone should do what they think is best for their fish, but I hope you haven't been getting hate for the salt thing? Your fish are obviously extremely healthy and you've put a lot into them. Good luck with your spawns!


----------



## logisticsguy

Young long fin HM giant for sale. PM if interested.


----------



## Tress

Beautiful Fish CJ! Nice job


----------



## Quinn

I just came back from a long hiatus, and your journal was one of the first things I checked. Gorgeous, gorgeous fish as ever. If I was in Canada I would definitely be buying one of your giants! Sad to hear you wont be updating, I'll have to try and find them on FB or something.


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Aww, I'll miss ya CJ!
> 
> Sadly my old computer/dial up can't handle facebook, but I'll check your page out whenever I get a chance





Stone said:


> Looking at your giants is one of the few reasons I visit this site, pity I will admit I spend way more time on other forums more about plants, this is a good site for people to learn and ask questions, Just not much for more experienced users to do





sofiaee said:


> Same!
> 
> @logisticsguy I'm not sure if I've posted in this thread or not but it's the only one I follow and your observations about using salt in the aquariums are very interesting. I'm sorry that you won't be posting here but I will look for you on Facebook.
> 
> I hope I'm not reading too much into your post but I would agree that there are some who hold steadfast to certain information taken from one source and are just not receptive to any other evidence/experience. Caution is great, and important, and everyone should do what they think is best for their fish, but I hope you haven't been getting hate for the salt thing? Your fish are obviously extremely healthy and you've put a lot into them. Good luck with your spawns!





Quinn said:


> I just came back from a long hiatus, and your journal was one of the first things I checked. Gorgeous, gorgeous fish as ever. If I was in Canada I would definitely be buying one of your giants! Sad to hear you wont be updating, I'll have to try and find them on FB or something.


Thanks you guys. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I needed a little time to chill and not let the attitudes of a couple people bother me anymore. I would never recommend doing something that I haven't researched thoroughly and tried myself. 

My goodness I used to have so much trouble getting spawns to work out or just get a small spawn if I was lucky. A couple changes and boom 3 spawns in row with over 220 fry, no damage to breeders and quick spawning. 

I was shocked to find Axolotl eggs everywhere in their new tank. They are very young and should not have bred until Spring so this was a nice surprise. Sally Mander our big girl was only put in tank with others last month and boom she got preggers. Eggs were all over the filters and plants so they were removed and put into a small hatching tub. Today they started to hatch and there are a lot of new baby Axolotls Glad they eat new hatch bbs like betta fry this makes it easier. They really are a fascinating species and its going to be a fun challenge to raise them. This means a major fish room expansion is going to be needed to look after so many new babies. New mom and sweet heart Sally Mander.


----------



## Nimble

Show pictures of babby Axos?


----------



## Tress

Congrats on your babies  I bet your a proud "daddy".

Sally Mander. Hehe. I love her name xD


----------



## hrutan

Those critters are adorable. I have the sinking feeling that probably means they are illegal in California. :-?


----------



## logisticsguy

Newborn Axolotl munching on bbs. I cleaned the tub and changed water today, it was nice to see they are healthy and hungry. Feeding time is funny to watch and the fry are all now completely hatched.


----------



## Tress

Oh gosh they are adorable


----------



## MattsBettas

That's awesome, CJ. I'm really happy for you- that will be a whole new adventure, but they're in good hands. Is it just me, or are they already showing different morphs?


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> That's awesome, CJ. I'm really happy for you- that will be a whole new adventure, but they're in good hands. Is it just me, or are they already showing different morphs?


Thanks Matt! You are correct we can already see the different morphs. Ive seen luecistic sp?, 2 different wild morphs, and golden albinos. They require similar care to baby betta starting out, so its been fairly smooth so far. This species just fascinates me so its very entertaining raising a spawn.

Hrutan yes they are illegal in California, apparently a lot of critters are there. Somehow I cant see this species being very invasive. 

The young betta spawns are doing really well despite my slacking lately with water changes.


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Oh gosh they are adorable


Thanks Tress. They are adorable lol. My big ones are all really tame and got spoiled with a bunch of earthworms for dinner today. 

Axolotl love worms!


----------



## DaytonBetta

Nice to see you back, I liked you on facebook, but I enjoy this format better.

Congrats on the babies. They are such unique creatures.


----------



## hrutan

logisticsguy said:


> Hrutan yes they are illegal in California, apparently a lot of critters are there. Somehow I cant see this species being very invasive.


It's a blanket law in California. Species have to be excluded to be legal, rather than included to be illegal. This was pushed through in the 1920's by big money chicken ranchers. Getting the appropriate department to reevaluate species is nearly impossible; note the decades long fight to legalize pet ferrets - which cannot survive in the wild.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## Tress

I need that hoodie. Naow.


----------



## Aqua Aurora

OMFG where can I buy that?! If its not available someone needs to mass produce it from one of those 'we'll make your customer logo/images shirts/hoodies/mugs' sites! Would be perfect for wearing when out shopping during hellish holiday season (would not wear around the hubby though as the hoodie would be a lie, he makes me quite happy ^^).


----------



## logisticsguy

This is young long fin HM Giant boy Brutus.


----------



## logisticsguy

Baby giant pics from the experimental spawn.


----------



## Nimble

Who were the parents of the experimental spawn again?

Those babies are so pretty.


----------



## logisticsguy

Nimble said:


> Who were the parents of the experimental spawn again?
> 
> Those babies are so pretty.


Thank you. These are the parents. I have no idea what to expect really.


----------



## Nimble

Ooh, the father is gorgeous.


----------



## Tress

Ahhhhh I love that blue finned one at that top and the last one  so lovely


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Ahhhhh I love that blue finned one at that top and the last one  so lovely


Thanks Tress. This is my favorite age for fry. The blue finned one is the tank boss. Kind of a mean lil bugger. I can see that one being the first one separated. Very aggressive bunch compared to my last spawn which was so mellow.


----------



## logisticsguy

Gilligan x SPHoo9










Chester x SPoo9










Sorority girl. I like this one she is a sweetie.










Axolotls love climbing all over each other. This is a weird and hilarious species.


----------



## logisticsguy

The Gilligan x little green giant spawn has produced about 10 monster size giant fry!

Only about 5% of the spawn but Im still happy about it.

So busy at work because of Christmas and with a bunch of betta spawns combined with a large axolotl spawn has me somewhat overwhelmed. The size of the last spawns is proving to be a challenge in itself.


----------



## PetMania

Your spawns are looking amazing! Absolutely stunning


----------



## logisticsguy

Thank you Petmania! 

This Dal boy is looking for a home. 










The sorority girls. Absolutely my favorite tank. Love the betta females!




























And of course a pic of a little axolotl. Another female is laying eggs tonight. They think its Spring or something here. Im torn as to which species to keep breeding. Should I pick Axies or betta? and concentrate my work on one but this will be a hard decision I love both.


----------



## Tress

Oh my gosh CJ D: Love that Dal boy! But mom would kill me if I got another betta (especially as I just picked up #6 >.>). Plus I'd be scared to ship him around the holidays/in this cold.

As adorable as Axolotls are, I really hope you stick with bettas :3 You've done a lot with them, they look so good.


----------



## Aqua Aurora

Holy [censor] I want that male orange and red!!! I'd prefer plakat for tail type (to avoid tail nipping possibilities) but I'd take him in a heart beat if I could! Wish I was in canada so I could get him :c


----------



## kjg1029

+1^ I NEED him! Lol he's sooooo pretty, I love orange bettas!...I wish I was in Canada!


----------



## logisticsguy

The orange guys dad was actually a giant orange HMPK. I wish you guys lived here too or that US shipping from here was not such a debacle. 

Up to six betta now Tress. Yeah don't make your Mom mad just before Christmas


----------



## Tress

Haha she's semi enabling  Cause she can't get me a lot for gifts she says nothing other than "are you sure you have room?". Haha if it comes to it I have a 30g sitting downstairs >:3

Just curious, how much would it be for him? Is he a half giant size?


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Haha she's semi enabling  Cause she can't get me a lot for gifts she says nothing other than "are you sure you have room?". Haha if it comes to it I have a 30g sitting downstairs >:3
> 
> Just curious, how much would it be for him? Is he a half giant size?


He would be a 20$ fish. His size is what I would call large he is about 4.5cm body only and he is still growing. Not going to make giant size but a big boy.

Its nice to have a semi enabler  My family tolerates my fish addiction but I keep slowly using up more space. If I grow slow enough they barely notice. That 30g would look really nice when set up you know ;-)


----------



## Aqua Aurora

logisticsguy said:


> He would be a 20$ fish. His size is what I would call large he is about 4.5cm body only and he is still growing. Not going to make giant size but a big boy.
> 
> Its nice to have a semi enabler  My family tolerates my fish addiction but I keep slowly using up more space. If I grow slow enough they barely notice. That 30g would look really nice when set up you know ;-)


$20 to ship? Is that standard mail or 2-3day (priority) shipping? That's not as pricy as I'd thought it'd be. I'd be bad and consider that after the holidays were over if you had past experience shipping betta in winter (packaging them well ti survive) before>.> but right now I'd only have a 20g long for it and the driftwood in there is not betta friendly >.< Also I think my first boy, Xerxes, would not be happy to discover another betta got a _larger _tank than him!

My husband's an enabler too, I'm the one who holds back because I'm a cheap arse (usually).


----------



## BlueLacee

Stunning fish, as always. And good luck on your sawns


----------



## ozymandius

MAN! im mad that I just found this journal! really nice job bro keep up the great work im subbed!


----------



## PetMania

That orange boy is going to make someone real happy. 

Reading your journal is really getting me pointing towards breeding again :lol: Oh dear


----------



## Velxunai

Hey, I've ordered in a giant boy and was wondering if there is any dramatic differences in care compared to the standards? I'm a little annoyed because I ordered him from what I thought was a good shop but have since found out that they have a lot of ick problems 😒 and the tank I have for him is a split 20litre that shares with my much beloved Mr Yellow... Should I quarantine the new fish before adding him? How long for?

What do you guys do in these cases?


----------



## Aqua Aurora

Velxunai said:


> Hey, I've ordered in a giant boy and was wondering if there is any dramatic differences in care compared to the standards? I'm a little annoyed because I ordered him from what I thought was a good shop but have since found out that they have a lot of ick problems &#55357;&#56850; and the tank I have for him is a split 20litre that shares with my much beloved Mr Yellow... Should I quarantine the new fish before adding him? How long for?
> 
> What do you guys do in these cases?


Giant/king betta need a 10g(37.8L) tank minimum from what I've read. 
Definitely quarantine any new fish in a separate (cycled and heated) tank before introducing to a tank with existing stock. I'd recommend a 3 week (21 day) quarantine to make sure no disease pop up. If it has anything qt time may last longer to fix the issue (fin rot, sbd, velvet, ick, etc).


----------



## logisticsguy

I would agree that a 10g tank is a minimum for a giant betta. I qt all new fish for a minimum 21 days. I suggest a couple methylene blue baths for all new fish as well. This helps with any ammonia or nitrate buildup from transport and can help knock out any pathogens he could carry with him. 

I am a huge believer in using aquarium salt on a permanent basis with all betta but especially giants at a dose of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Giants have a notoriously weak immune system that can use all the help they can get. I had major problems keeping them healthy before doing this and it will help avoid the ick, velvet, columnaris, finrot from gaining a foothold. 

You can also help them by diet supplementation. I feed Hikari sprirulina brine shimp 2x per week. The spirulina sparks the immune system to produce more t cells and will help fight off internal bacteria and parasites. it is also very nutritious and high in vitamins. You can also add a little probiotic to the diet, I use Culturelle which is Lactobacteria Rhamnosis GG, sprinked on bloodworms 2x per week. This stuff poisons bad bacteria with lactic acid, eats all the bacterias food and also sparks the immune system. Good for people even better for betta fish imho. 

I had a boatload of problems before going to this system and hardly any since. The fish will also grow a little faster. Feed well but do not overfeed, giants will eat till they burst, frequent small feedings better than infrequent huge ones. good luck with your giant let me know how it goes and if you have more questions I would be happy to help.


----------



## BettaLover1313

So happy to find that you're still doing your journal! You've got so many gorgeous fish and your Axolotls are adorable!


----------



## logisticsguy

BettaLover1313 said:


> So happy to find that you're still doing your journal! You've got so many gorgeous fish and your Axolotls are adorable!


Thank you! Yeah I took a break. I shouldn't let some peoples negativity affect me. Attaching an update of pics from the baby Axolotl spawn. They may be virtually extinct in the wild but are thriving at my house. We are getting some back legs finally Yay! They are slowly being transferred from NHBBS to Spirulina Brine Shrimp and probiotic spiked bloodworms which is great because I have 2 bbs hatcheries running and they cant keep up here.



PetMania said:


> That orange boy is going to make someone real happy.
> 
> Reading your journal is really getting me pointing towards breeding again :lol: Oh dear


I will have a betta update soon. Some of his brothers turning out nice but only about 4 giants in the whole spawn. Breeding betta is a lot of work but it is fun to watch them grow. You would likely be pretty good at it.



ozymandius said:


> MAN! im mad that I just found this journal! really nice job bro keep up the great work im subbed!


Awesome. I hope it provides some useful info for you.



BlueLacee said:


> Stunning fish, as always. And good luck on your sawns


Thanks BlueLacee! The spawns are doing well but Ive been super sick and slacking on water changes a bit so they are a little smaller than I would like. The spawns are huge so I should have been doing way more changes but they are all healthy still at least. Hope to have a good pic update of the betta babies tomorrow.



Aqua Aurora said:


> $20 to ship? Is that standard mail or 2-3day (priority) shipping? That's not as pricy as I'd thought it'd be. I'd be bad and consider that after the holidays were over if you had past experience shipping betta in winter (packaging them well ti survive) before>.> but right now I'd only have a 20g long for it and the driftwood in there is not betta friendly >.< Also I think my first boy, Xerxes, would not be happy to discover another betta got a _larger _tank than him!
> 
> My husband's an enabler too, I'm the one who holds back because I'm a cheap arse (usually).


Yeah the fish was 20 bucks but shipping in this country is super expensive. it would cost about 50 just to send a fish to Tress in Ontario. I hate shipping in winter anyways because had a couple terrible outcomes. Thank goodness for the semi enablers. Working on the Axies tonight so here a few pics of baby Axies. Also had another Axolotl spawn hatch tonight forgot how tiny they are to start.


----------



## MattsBettas

Those are adorable. What are your plans for them?


----------



## Tress

Awwww sweet little babies <33

@[email protected] $50? you're killing me here CJ. Gosh the mail system here is so screwed up.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Those are adorable. What are your plans for them?


Im lucky to have a lfs buying axolotl and betta from me now. They make a pretty unique aquarium pet. They are a hardy species, tough as nails really compared to most aquarium fish and live about 20 years with good care. With training they will come right up to you and can even be petted once they get used to it. 



Tress said:


> Awwww sweet little babies <33
> 
> @[email protected] $50? you're killing me here CJ. Gosh the mail system here is so screwed up.


Its way over priced here in Canada compared to the USA. I sent a shipment of 5 betta to Toronto last week and they wanted 50$ Expresspost. I shipped via Air Cargo for 75 with worry free 3 hour delivery.


----------



## Tress

Ouch. And yea, I noticed that right away. Though it would be cheaper than driving there to get him haha. If only.


----------



## Velxunai

I am on the train travelling home with my new giant, Thank you so much for your advice! I've rearranged my setups so he will be in a more appropriate tank for himself. I was also naughty and got a beautiful little CT girl 

My partner is probably never going to let me go back there again!


----------



## logisticsguy

Velxunai said:


> I am on the train travelling home with my new giant, Thank you so much for your advice! I've rearranged my setups so he will be in a more appropriate tank for himself. I was also naughty and got a beautiful little CT girl
> 
> My partner is probably never going to let me go back there again!


Terrific! You should post a pic of him here when he is all settled in. Its hard to have only one betta!


----------



## logisticsguy

The experimental spawn is coming along really well. Large fry that are hyper active.

Lots of variations and starting to show some colors.


----------



## Tress

Ahh <3 Loving that pale one with the blue fins  

Your fish are so gorgeous CJ!


----------



## Velxunai

I love the White body with red fins.  but they are all gorgeous!

I posted pictures of my new giant and little female on a photo thread I started 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=498330


----------



## kjg1029

wow great looking spawn! They all look so heathy!
great work, their gonna be lovley when their adults...there adorable now lol!xD


----------



## logisticsguy

HSP017


----------



## logisticsguy

Female for sale. $15 Prolific easy breeder. Very active. She really likes boys and doesn't beat them up. Has marble and giant gene. She is not giant size but carries the gene.


----------



## Tress

Lovely boy CJ!


----------



## BlueInkFish

I would snatch that girl, faster than in eye blink, I bad I don't live in Canada though


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Lovely boy CJ!


Thanks Tress. His nickname is Boris. He is almost identical to his brother Brutus. They both qualify as giants as over 5cm and both have huge appetites. One of only a few giants Ive managed to produce. 



litelboyblu said:


> I would snatch that girl, faster than in eye blink, I bad I don't live in Canada though


She is a real sweetheart and mom to a spawn of about 500. Prolific lol. I would keep her but under a space crunch here. 
I guarantee this one would breed in short order she is a little boy crazy.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yup, same with the female I own right now... Crazy for betta "hunk"

Sigh, if only I lived in Canada!!!


----------



## pratfaller

Hey CJ, I fell in love with your crayola play sand and hope to get some for my tank. You mentioned that it's a pain to clean though. What is your method for making it suitable enough to be put into the tank?


----------



## logisticsguy

I love the Crayola play sand. A little sand gets sucked up when vacuuming into the bucket but not much, this is the only drawback so far but this seems to be the same with all sand. I just put it back into the tank. It has some floaters when you first put it in the tank but within 48 hours they go away. I highly recommend the stuff. Hard to find in the winter as it is out of season and Christmas stuff pushes it off the shelf. We are even getting plants to grow in the sand. Very happy with this product.


----------



## Fenghuang

If we lived in Canada, Blu and I would be fighting over that female lol. And the male looks so beefy, I love it.


----------



## MattsBettas

Love the fish, CJ. Does that girl have a name or code assigned to her? I feel like I've seen her earlier in your journal... 

I'd probably take her in a second if I had a safe, non contaminated place for her to live... She reminds me of a Karen MacAuley fish, both color and form wise.


----------



## logisticsguy

She sure has appeared before Matt. Post 738 of the journal. This is the girl that is descended from the green giant female I got same time as Cookie. What a terrific complement! I am a huge fan of Karen MacAuley fish. She was spawned with Gilligan and the spawn is humungous, it only took about 30 minutes for her to get right to work so hopefully I can find her a home with someone that needs a reliable female breeder. She is one of my favorites but has been alone for awhile so not a good candidate for sorority life anymore.


----------



## BlueInkFish

-.- I guess Feng and Matt and I would all be arguing for the fish if we all didn't have a reason to buy her! Sigh... Next vacation, im going to Canada XD!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

This dalmation half moon boy is for sale. 15$ He is healthy and active. Big boy, not a giant but has the gene.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## Velxunai

Lol  I feel I want this as a poster above my tank.


----------



## logisticsguy

Oh my. One of my fry has the most bent spine Ive ever seen on a betta fish!

Its a Z shape. This one may need to go to the axolotl tank.


----------



## Tress

Poor baby, at least it wont suffer.


----------



## MattsBettas

I had one like that, her back looked like a curvy speed bump... Made it pretty far, actually, didn't even die because of it.


----------



## logisticsguy

It amazing how tough some of the more disabled betta can be. This one has a horrible spine but still manages to be the tank thug.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is not my fish but was posted in a giant betta fb group I belong to.

Thought it was really awesome so had to share.


----------



## SiameseFightingArt

Oh my god  I have never seen a betta with colors like that.


----------



## Velxunai

Lol it's photoshopped, you can see the reflection


----------



## Tress

Wow, he is funky. His colours are so vibrant they almost look surreal!


----------



## logisticsguy

It could be a photoshop I guess but I think that is another fish in the tank next to him not a refection. He is from a pretty reputable breeder. I can easily find out for sure from the group.


----------



## MattsBettas

I have some experience with Photoshop, and from what I can see there isn't any major editing done... Or else it's very well done. Maybe a bit of general enhancement but nothing huge. The fish in the back is definitely there so that the fish can flare and show off, and not a reflection of the same fish. 

He looks amazing. Have to wonder what's going on in the genes.


----------



## Nimble

If I'm not mistaken, that phenotype(the expression of those five different colors) is currently known among some groups as Armageddon. One of the Betta-based Facebook groups I'm in has a few breeders working on it and studying it.


----------



## Velxunai

Yea sorry I spoke too quickly and am now eating my hat


----------



## LittleBettaFish

The colouring does look a little off (the yellow in particular) so I do wonder if there was some enhancement done. However, I have seen some very unusually coloured bettas, so I suppose I will reserve judgement and see whether this is the betta's natural colouration.


----------



## Mahsfish

Hey again.... Been very busy with my final high school year.... CJ I would defs pick up the female for breeding from you, I have a perfect male marble halfmoon for her... unfortunatley I dont have time or space to be breeding...

Off to uni after this year.... trying to sell all my tanks... well most of them. Depressing to think of... hopefully i cant stay in my home town to keep some tanks at my parents.


----------



## logisticsguy

I know how busy your life has been busy Mah. Getting a good education is critical for young people these days. Too bad your don't have time to breed I totally understand lol, Ive been too busy and will be taking a break for awhile. It would be nice to stay active fish keeping but you have your priorities right and you can always start up the hobby again.


----------



## Mahsfish

That would be the plan... once Im living stably Ill definitely going deeper into the hobby... School and sports have just taken over right now... I still have all my tanks. Ive sadly had 2 fish die in the last 2 weeks, but it was due to my apisto breeding pair attacking them while i was on holidays. I just have no time to breed... so thankfully the BN plecos have stolen all the apisto eggs when the get laid.


----------



## logisticsguy

Dalmatian boy ZC018 aka Mark.


----------



## Mahsfish

Good lookin boy


----------



## logisticsguy

An update on the Experimental spawn. Very large group some may be giants. A few real characters in the bunch including Flipper who thinks the way to get more food is to endlessly jump out of the water doing flips. He may be right.


----------



## Tress

Wow, quite the betta rainbow there with those beauties. Is that a touch of butterfly on some of them? How old are they now? Which one is Flipper? Haha sorry for all the questions


----------



## Fenghuang

That pineapple boy(?)! They're turning out super well.


----------



## logisticsguy

Flipper is the yellow pineapple boy in the center of the second pic. He is kinda nutty and I like that so he will be a keeper. These fry do not look like parents much at all but I see the grandparents clearly. Ah betta genetics are fascinating! These guys are 7.5 weeks now and are larger than my other spawns mostly because there were fewer fry. Number of fry makes a huge difference in the growth rate of a spawn tank. More fry, more hormone. Oh well they all even out later on. I will post a few pics of the other 2 spawns tonight.


----------



## logisticsguy

These are pics from another spawn. Gilligan x SP009 (siblings).


----------



## MattsBettas

Beautiful fish out of both spawns!


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Matt. Ive been a little slack on water changes lately. Flipper is a trouble maker. May find himself in a jar with a lid early.


----------



## Stone

You always have to love the ones with the most personality.


----------



## Fenghuang

Haha, the expression of the little one in the picture with Flipper. I love it!


----------



## Velxunai

Did I read sometime ago that you cull using a resident axolotl?


----------



## logisticsguy

Velxunai said:


> Did I read sometime ago that you cull using a resident axolotl?


Yes I do. Well a group of axolotls actually. I have been fortunate not to have to do much culling with most of my spawns. The last 2 were somewhere between 350-450 each and there were a few deformities so culling was needed. I don't like it at all. Here is a pic of my young adult axolotl.










and Baby Axolotl


----------



## logisticsguy

This is the Hen House aka The sorority tank. This is where about 30 chubby females from 4 different spawns live in relative harmony in a 55g. There is even a boy in there but he doesn't know he is a boy yet and fits right in with the girls. Don't worry if he acts up he will be removed.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Those are definitely some chunkers! I do have to say in all the photos I've seen of your fish they always look healthy and in great condition.


----------



## KitDewStein

In the second photo the one that has a red face, yellow/orange looking body, and red tail has me in a hypnotic gaze. She looks so interesting. All your fish (was stalking behind the scenes) are amazing looking though.


----------



## Mahsfish

Hey CJ, hows the care on the axolotls? I was thinking of maybe getting one if they arent too difficult to care for... rather than keeping fish.


----------



## logisticsguy

The care for Axolotls is actually easier than betta imho. They require no heater and prefer a water temperature 60-72f. In summer a fan aimed at the surface can be used to cool the tank if the room temperature goes over 76f. A cycled tank with sponge filter to keep ammonia at bay is preferred. They are a very hardy species. When small they eat bloodworms and frozen spirulina brine shrimp. As adults they LOVE earthworms but can be fed jumbo bloodworms or pellets. Not difficult to care for at all really. The more you feed them the faster they grow and this species can eat like crazy. I have golden albinos, lucys, wilds and an albino available small and almost adult. There is a great website about their care here. 

www.caudata.org


----------



## logisticsguy

LittleBettaFish said:


> Those are definitely some chunkers! I do have to say in all the photos I've seen of your fish they always look healthy and in great condition.


Thanks LBF. I try hard to keep them healthy. My weakness as a fish keeper is that I am often guilty of over feeding my girls. They know Im a soft touch. They look at me with the "Im hungry" and I fold.


----------



## Velxunai

I can't believe you have so many girls in that tank and no stress lines!!! 
I have 4 girls and two of them always have stress lines


----------



## logisticsguy

Velxunai said:


> I can't believe you have so many girls in that tank and no stress lines!!!
> I have 4 girls and two of them always have stress lines


My experience has been that more females and a larger size tank equals less stress and less likely to want to be an alpha queen of the tank syndrome. I also noticed less general stress in the sorority when I started using aquarium salt to raise salinity in my water. Once a female is removed for breeding I don't usually return them to the tank, for some reason after they have been alone for a length of time or with a male there can be trouble and they either get picked on or become a bully with attitude.


----------



## Velxunai

That's good to know 

I have a 75liter (20 gallons) would that be ok for more girls do you think?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes I think you could put 3-4 more girls in that tank. Lots of plants and a couple hides seem to help as well. When I add females to the sorority I do it during a major water change and move everything in the tank to a different location. It seems to work but I have no idea why.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

logisticsguy said:


> Thanks LBF. I try hard to keep them healthy. My weakness as a fish keeper is that I am often guilty of over feeding my girls. They know Im a soft touch. They look at me with the "Im hungry" and I fold.


I think my wilds want to come live with you! Since I made the mistake of overfeeding my early wilds, my fish are on a much stricter diet. Sometimes you'd think I'd murdered their firstborn children on the days I make them go hungry.


----------



## logisticsguy

LittleBettaFish said:


> I think my wilds want to come live with you! Since I made the mistake of overfeeding my early wilds, my fish are on a much stricter diet. Sometimes you'd think I'd murdered their firstborn children on the days I make them go hungry.


I didn't feed them today. They look miserable lol. Poor little chubbies!


----------



## logisticsguy

The white fry are all grown up and getting ready for a spawn attempt at my friends house :-D


----------



## Tress

Oh CJ, they turned out lovely! How many made it from that spawn anyways?


----------



## logisticsguy

There were about 15 that made it to adulthood. The ones that made it turned out pretty darn nice. Genetics from 2 of my favorite thai breeders so it was exciting to see them and my friend has done such a good job of raising them.


----------



## Tress

I agree, they are very nice. Can't wait to see what they produce in the future!


----------



## logisticsguy

This is ZC001 aka The flower dorsal betta lol. It looks like his dorsal was trying to twin but only got so far.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is Gilligan. he fathered 2 spawns in a short period of time plus his fins were wrecked by one of the females. All the stress caused a major marble gene jump.


----------



## Tress

oh my... looks like Gilly tried to become a clownfish. He looks like he has a ski mask on, watch out that your pellets don't go missing.


----------



## logisticsguy

Poor Gilly went through a major depression when he was removed from his spawn. I wish all the males were as devoted as he was to his fry. His fins are starting to look a little better at least but he looked awful for a month.


----------



## Tress

Aww, what a sweet boy <3


----------



## logisticsguy

Pic link fail. I will try later. Oops


----------



## logisticsguy

8 week old baby Half Moons for sale. Very hyper active and healthy half giants. Large for their age. 10 each. Local pickup only unless choose air shipping for 75 to most Canadian airports. May be worth it if getting multiple betta. Too cold for ground shipping until spring. Stop by and choose the best from 3 different spawns with over 200 to choose from. Colors are Yellow, purple, blue and cambos and green.


----------



## logisticsguy

A just hatched batch of baby axolotl all piled up in the corner deathly afraid of the horribly menacing syphon.


----------



## SiameseFightingArt

I would love a betta halfmoon from you! Once I get money...


----------



## logisticsguy

75g sand tank with live plants.


----------



## Velxunai

Is shipping overseas a possibility? (Australia)


----------



## Mahsfish

In the pic of the axolotl babies, whats the red? Is that like organs or is it the stomach from the blood worms??


----------



## logisticsguy

Velxunai said:


> Is shipping overseas a possibility? (Australia)


I wish I could Velxunai. Im sure the shipping cost would be horrific and not worth it. However thank you for being interested in them, Im really happy with how they are turning out.



Mahsfish said:


> In the pic of the axolotl babies, whats the red? Is that like organs or is it the stomach from the blood worms??


Yes the red is a tummy full of bloodworms. They are a little see through for the first few months of their lives especially the Lucys. When fry are little I feed new hatch bbs and they look really orange then. This makes it really easy to see if they are full or not and I can also see if there is any blockage or internal problems. Wish I could see betta fry insides this way sometimes


----------



## logisticsguy

Decisions have been made. I wont be doing any betta spawns again until at least next year. We are going to finish growing out the 3 current spawns and some will be off to the IBC show here in Canada in May, some to show and some for the auction. So if your looking for a healthy betta I have some really good clear out deals coming up.

Currently I am working on a smart phone app for betta care that will have lots of information and the ability to ask questions and get tips directly from the app. At the same time I am using the identical platform for the development of an Axolotl app that works the same way.


----------



## Olympia

Will you have any young breeding quality giants available around then? Not sure what your current spawns are exactly (though the photos in the last few pages of this journal look awesome!) Possibly interested...


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes I should have a few breeder quality giants along with me for the IBC show in May which isn't too far from you Olympia. There are some terrific speakers lined up for that show in May like Bob Fenner and Gerald Griffen, so Im really looking forward to it.


----------



## Olympia

Ah, thanks for informing me of it. Hopefully it doesn't conflict with anything, I'll try to keep it free.


----------



## Velxunai

That's a shame &#55357;&#56862; but understandable.

Do let us know on here about your app tho  it sounds amazing!


----------



## DaytonBetta

Your apps sound really neat! Good luck with them.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is a pic update of the 8 week Gilligan x little Green giant spawn. Finally getting some color going.


----------



## Velxunai

Love the blue with the black face swimming down in the first picture  looks like my he / she female


----------



## MattsBettas

Beautiful, all of them. Love the girl in pic 2. Going to have some tough choices if I'm able to get there!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Looking great as always.


----------



## logisticsguy

LittleBettaFish said:


> Looking great as always.


Thanks LBF. I like fry better when you can see the color coming out. 



MattsBettas said:


> Beautiful, all of them. Love the girl in pic 2. Going to have some tough choices if I'm able to get there!


Yes you are sir! 



Velxunai said:


> Love the blue with the black face swimming down in the first picture  looks like my he / she female


 I like that fish too. Im just starting to be able to sex these guys.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy

This boy is for sale. He is a large healthy HM 4 months old. SPG003 is a half giant and carries the marble gene.


----------



## MattsBettas

Someone better buy him before I get there... Really don't need him but damn!

Who were his parents?


----------



## logisticsguy

Father is Houdini, you can see the resemblance and similar caudal. Mom is SP009 and you can see grandpa Saturn in him as well. Your gonna have it tough. Im just starting to post the males from this spawn that are still here, a few are giants and should have them all up in a few days hopefully. One thing about Houdini he threw a good D shaped caudal.


----------



## logisticsguy

A few days ago I noticed clamped fins on a few of the fry in a grow out tank. Checked the parameters which were normal. 150 fry in Gilligan x SP009 that looked terrific and I had plans on taking many of them to the IBC show in May. Today I wake up to mass death everywhere. 4 survivors which will need to be euthanized. I am devastated. I have to go clean up this mess now. Grown man nearly in tears.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I'm so sorry, it's defeniatley hard not to cry when you wake up to something unpleasant. Do you know what may have caused the corruption!?


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks litelboyblu. I wish I had some idea what happened. I am at a complete loss which I find very frustrating.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I'm so sorry. Your water conditions were all normal correct? It's very frustrating when you can find the cause of a massacre. I'm so sorry once again. I know how it feels


----------



## Fenghuang

No!  I am so sorry. That is heartbreaking.


----------



## Olympia

I'm really sorry to hear that. Such a shame.


----------



## Tress

Oh no D: they were so lovely! So sorry for your loss CJ, I hope you can find out what happened.


----------



## Velxunai

that's horrible... Poor little fish.

I'm sorry for your loss :,(


----------



## hrutan

Oh my goodness...that's horrible. Velvet?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

That is absolutely devastating news. I've lost groups of fish before (not that many) and there's no shame in crying. I was bawling my eyes out with some of my real favourites.

Sounds like whatever it was hit fast if you went from clamped fins to mass death over a few days. I would have thought something like velvet would have taken longer and been more obvious if it was advanced enough to kill as even my young fry can struggle with an infection for weeks before succumbing.


----------



## hrutan

I have heard some say that it can take down an entire spawn in a few hours, and others say that it can be a slow and chronic condition instead.

Agreed there is no shame in crying


----------



## logisticsguy

I have not seen any sign of velvet. However I'm not going to rule it out. It should not be an issue because I salt my water and for the most part this is very good at velvet protection. Just finished cleaning up the bodies omg this was painful. I am going to double the salt for a short period in all my tanks. Plants can suffer for a little while as they are not my priority. Thanks for the well wishes guys. Only other fish keepers can understand how awful something like this can be. Felt like slapping a family member that said "Its only fish man just get some more" Arggg!!!


----------



## BlueInkFish

We are all truly sorry, we know how you feel and we can even relate, you can even call us your fish family if you would like XD!
But on a serious note, I do not like how the world thinks that fish are just "fish," it's like saying you have a strong relation with a dog or cat, heck even a elephant, it ends up passing and someone comes along to tell you "it's just a " " some people are blinded but they still can learn to support you. My topic is off course. I'm truly sorry about your tank though


----------



## Velxunai

I would have slapped them and said "oh? It's only your pride... You can get some more right?

I agree with litelboyblu some people really need to wake up when it comes to the lives of things we care about. I had to take my sick rat to the vet yesterday but had to fight for it because my Dad/boss wanted the afternoon off to go to the mall... And he was calling me selfish for wanting to get my pet to health care. 

I did end up being able to go and my rattie got the meds he needed


----------



## MattsBettas

That's such a shame, CJ. I'm really sorry... I can't imagine the frustration. 

Don't want to speculate because you're a great keeper and are more qualified than me to figure this out but most of the time when things like this happen so suddenly and without real symptoms it's some sort of system failure... Filter kicked out, toxins in the water (did Calgary have a melt recently?), heater malfunction, etc. I doubt it's a disease that caused this. Acute columnaris is the most likely suspect but with your salted water it's very unlikely. Parasites hate salt and take longer than that to kill fish in a mass die off so I'm doubtful of them too...


----------



## logisticsguy

Well Matt its very interesting you mentioned the city water as on the Calgary aquarium fb page other people had major issues pop up in the last few days. Speculation was a copper or metal problem but I am not sure. This was the only tank here to get a water change in the last 5 days and the only tank with super sick fish....coincidence? We had major melt/ thaw weather here last 2 weeks and all the road gunk, agricultural waste and fertilizers have been released via run off into the reservoir so this would not surprise me in the least. Maybe I need to consider using RO water for the next while.


----------



## MattsBettas

That's just too bad, and if fish are dying, there _has_ to be an issue with people drinking that. If you need to do a water change and don't have another source for water I'd triple dose prime and run charcoal in the water change bucket for a while before adding it. Might not make it better but could slightly reduce your chances. It's just ridiculous when things like that are completely out of your control. Hope the issue gets fixed soon.


----------



## DaytonBetta

I'm very sorry. That's an awful loss.


----------



## logisticsguy

Thank you all for the good wishes and support. Whatever happened to the water it has passed now. The final count 161 dead fry. Fortunately 12 survived, not the best 12 of course. The pretty ones always go first. I am happy a few made it and really happy all the other fish here look perfectly fine. Here are some pics of the young betta still swimming like crazy. I may just re spawn the parents again as Gilligan has returned to health and SP009 would be thrilled to breed again. 



















The new baby axolotl having lunch










Young Golden Albino Axolotl










This young giant continues to grow.


----------



## BlueInkFish

That's good that the water problem is gone!

Your photography is stunning, and so are your finned and finless friends


----------



## MattsBettas

Glad it's better now. The fry in the pictures look great at least! Love the axolotls too! 

Are you going to Calgary's spring auction?


----------



## logisticsguy

litelboyblu said:


> That's good that the water problem is gone!
> 
> Your photography is stunning, and so are your finned and finless friends


Thank you Blu! 



MattsBettas said:


> Glad it's better now. The fry in the pictures look great at least! Love the axolotls too!
> 
> Are you going to Calgary's spring auction?


I sure am going to the auction Matt. I love the fish auction, its one of the best days of the year. Im bringing betta and axolotl for the sale. Hope to pic up a few small tanks, plants and accessories for cheap.


----------



## Tress

Glad to hear that you didn't lose anymore fish and that at least some of the spawn survived  Your Axolotls are adorable <3


----------



## logisticsguy

There are some terrific articles in the latest edition of Flare magazine.


----------



## Velxunai

Damn. I wonder if I can get that in Australia...


----------



## logisticsguy

You can get the online version of Flare when you join the IBC.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I want some of that!!! Haha, I had the chance to sign up for it personally. To bad I didnt know what it was at the time! Now I got to do it online, grrrr!


----------



## Zhylis

>.>

<.<

Yes, I laughed at the title of the salt article. 
(Also, goodness those axolotls are adorable. And they'll help cull, too? Hrmm, intrigued!)


----------



## logisticsguy

Another one of the brothers. Shame his dorsal is so messy that it eliminated him from the breeding pool. May make a nice pet for somebody.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Would've made a nice pet for me... If I lived in Canada haha!


----------



## logisticsguy

Over the last year I began to understand why salt (sodium chloride) is so important to help keep betta fish healthy. I started to use it all the time at a strength of 1 ppt which is about 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Since I have a lot of fish, I ran experiments on probiotics and salinity trying to see how betta fish reacted to different doses and find the most effective levels for me. My fish do best between 1 ppt and 2 ppt salinity. Ive increased my normal aq salt addition at water changes to 1.5 tablespoons per 5 gallons. Electrolytes are really important for freshwater fish. 

The following is a good explanation as to why via Carl Strohmeyer

Freshwater fish absorb most of the water they need through their skin via osmosis by producing dilute urine and actively transport essential mineral ions from the surrounding water to compensate for mineral ions lost via the urine and diffusion from the gills (osmosis is the net movement of water through a selective permeable membrane from a region of low solute potential to a region of high solute potential due to their hyperosmotic environment), NOT through their gills. The gills are for respiration.

Osmosis is also important in the treatment of many aquarium diseases in both freshwater and saltwater. A general breakdown in osmoregulation due to disease, poor water quality (especially the lack of essential mineral electrolytes such as Calcium, magnesium, and Sodium) is often responsible for the bloated condition that results from excess water accumulation in tissues. It is common for Fish in this condition often rapidly succumb due to loss of homeostasis (the constant internal environment), essential to carrying out metabolism and other life activities this tends to be more common among FW fish in my experience, in part due to the lack of understanding of the role that many essential minerals play in essential life processes of fish.

Generally salts (trace elements), not just sodium chloride can affect osmosis. Magnesium can also play a major role too. Calcium can affect and just as importantly BE affected by proper osmotic function.

Often many aquarists understand how salt (sodium chloride) affects osmoregulation and the popular question of “Do fish drink?” however this is a dangerous over simplification as although sodium chloride (as often represented as sodium and chloride) are important, the lack of OTHER ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS including Calcium in fish can lose/leak substantial quantities of other minerals/salts into the water. 

In freshwater, a higher electrolyte level (particularly of sodium chloride, calcium and magnesium) will help pull fluids through the body which also stimulates the natural mucous coat on fish so as to resist parasites, bacteria, and fungus.
Also by pulling fluids through the body this can help with bloat, swim bladder problems, intestinal problems, and even dropsy (which I have had few problems with in clean tanks with good electrolyte/ trace element levels).

This process results in the loss of many electrolytes. Some of these trace elements can be replaced by ions contained in food but by far the most common method is through the movement of a substance against an osmotic gradient through the use of energy.
This usually involves the exchange of one substance for another. In the case of freshwater fish, Na+ (sodium) ions are taken from the water and ammonia ions are taken from the fish and they are exchanged.
This effectively rids the fish of ammonia. Chloride ions are exchanged for carbonate ions which help in maintaining the pH of the body fluids.
This is one more important reason for adequate Calcium, carbonate (KH), & electrolyte levels
Opportunistic diseases such as Columnaris, Saprolegnia (often known as fish fungus), and Aeromonas (often the cause of Septicemia are more easily prevented when osmoregulation is functioning properly in fish via adequate mineral levels

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

Ive often read that you shouldn't use aq salt for betta for more than 10 days. This is only true if the salt level is really high, for instance like therapeutic dose such as 1 tablespoon per gallon. This is over 5 ppt and such levels should be used only in a salt bath lasting minutes not days.


----------



## logisticsguy

Update for the Gilligan x Little green giant spawn. They seem to be enjoying taking over the 55g. Very healthy and active bunch.


----------



## Fenghuang

Ahhh, you always breed the best looking females! Don't get me wrong, the boys are spectacular too, but the girls are just so vibrant and gorgeous. I especially like that yellow one (the front facing one to the left beneath the orange) in the fourth picture. Dat face. 

Your talk of salt is also very interesting. I'm curious to learn more. Does the salinity level affect your plants much?


----------



## logisticsguy

Fenghuang said:


> Ahhh, you always breed the best looking females! Don't get me wrong, the boys are spectacular too, but the girls are just so vibrant and gorgeous. I especially like that yellow one (the front facing one to the left beneath the orange) in the fourth picture. Dat face.
> 
> Your talk of salt is also very interesting. I'm curious to learn more. Does the salinity level affect your plants much?


Thanks Fenghuang! For some reason my spawns are always female heavy but that's ok I like females. In my tests my plants didn't start to stress until 3 ppt. or about 3x what is recommended by API. However all my plants are really tough group. More sensitive ones may start to suffer around 2ppt. My tanks with panda cories I only go up to 1 ppt. as they are more salt sensitive than betta.


----------



## MattsBettas

Looks great, but when does it not! I think I've said it before but after reading your posts I've started using salt therapeutically at 1/2tsp/g in one of my divided betta tanks, and so far I'm loving the results... Especially after my parasite issues, which have stopped... 

Also, I'll be going down there the weekend of the 14/15th. I'll PM you or you can shoot one my way, I'd love to work something out...


----------



## BlueInkFish

... Those fish... Stunning...

Your salt conversation is interesting! Very detailed! Great job !


----------



## Fenghuang

Because of you, I'm considering trying salt myself. Not for my bettas just yet, but maybe with my guppies. I had an outbreak of both external and internal parasites, plus columnaris and camullanus worms all at once. Wiped out 18 of my 21(?) adults, and took a beautiful partial dragon HMPK with it. Miraculously all the guppy fry that were dropped during that time survived. I think it would be beneficial for a group so prone to disease! 

Coincidentally, one of the Thai sellers I am importing fish from also emailed me a instruction set on how to take care of my HM. She also suggested salt, but in a much lower dosage (only 1/2 tsp for every 10 liter).


----------



## Velxunai

I currently have a little girl (recently purchased from a lfs) who is healing up from being mistreated and possibly deformed. Salt has definitely had a positive effect on her  I have since been able to move her into a filtered tank and her strength is definitely improving


----------



## Aqua Aurora

logisticsguy said:


> Update for the Gilligan x Little green giant spawn. They seem to be enjoying taking over the 55g. Very healthy and active bunch.


That orange female (?) on the right in the first photo and center in the last is very lovely!


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Looks great, but when does it not! I think I've said it before but after reading your posts I've started using salt therapeutically at 1/2tsp/g in one of my divided betta tanks, and so far I'm loving the results... Especially after my parasite issues, which have stopped...
> 
> Also, I'll be going down there the weekend of the 14/15th. I'll PM you or you can shoot one my way, I'd love to work something out...


That is terrific Matt. I sure had much better luck after adding salt to my water. So many benefits for the fish. Geralds article in Flare about using aquarium salt is excellent. It will be nice to see you on the 14/15. Sunday is the auction here and it should be a good one. Im taking some betta for the sale and a few axolotl.



litelboyblu said:


> ... Those fish... Stunning...
> 
> Your salt conversation is interesting! Very detailed! Great job !


Thanks Blu!



Fenghuang said:


> Because of you, I'm considering trying salt myself. Not for my bettas just yet, but maybe with my guppies. I had an outbreak of both external and internal parasites, plus columnaris and camullanus worms all at once. Wiped out 18 of my 21(?) adults, and took a beautiful partial dragon HMPK with it. Miraculously all the guppy fry that were dropped during that time survived. I think it would be beneficial for a group so prone to disease!
> 
> Coincidentally, one of the Thai sellers I am importing fish from also emailed me a instruction set on how to take care of my HM. She also suggested salt, but in a much lower dosage (only 1/2 tsp for every 10 liter).


I blab on and on here about using salt which has become annoying to some. However, I do it because I don't want to see other betta keepers go through the grief I did when something so cheap and easy to use can prevent so many diseases. I wont prevent everything all the time but the fish certainly have a higher quality of life and longer life expectancy ime. Quick conversion here.

10L = 2 US gallons.
1 Tablespoon = 3 teaspoons.

I do use at a higher rate but its not all that much higher than your thai breeder. However many of them use groundwater not tap water that does often contain a little more salinity to start out with. Use at that level is perfectly fine anyways and a lot better than none at all. What I have learned is that most of the top show betta breeders use salinity as a tool to keep fish healthy. 




Velxunai said:


> I currently have a little girl (recently purchased from a lfs) who is healing up from being mistreated and possibly deformed. Salt has definitely had a positive effect on her  I have since been able to move her into a filtered tank and her strength is definitely improving


It is actually quite amazing how quickly aq salt can help a fish heal. 



Aqua Aurora said:


> That orange female (?) on the right in the first photo and center in the last is very lovely!


Thanks I really like that girl myself. She may be kept as a breeder, she has a really sweet personality.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## KitDewStein

I am so confused with that picture o.o why is a gold fish in a meat package?


----------



## Aqua Aurora

logisticsguy said:


> Thanks I really like that girl myself. She may be kept as a breeder, she has a really sweet personality.


Aww dang I wanted to buy her :c Maybe I'll bug you for one of her orange offspring.
And wtf with the feederfish/goldfish? Not even remotely safe for human consumption (arguably not safe for fish either).


----------



## Fenghuang

logisticsguy said:


> I blab on and on here about using salt which has become annoying to some. However, I do it because I don't want to see other betta keepers go through the grief I did when something so cheap and easy to use can prevent so many diseases. I wont prevent everything all the time but the fish certainly have a higher quality of life and longer life expectancy ime. Quick conversion here.
> 
> 10L = 2 US gallons.
> 1 Tablespoon = 3 teaspoons.
> 
> I do use at a higher rate but its not all that much higher than your thai breeder. However many of them use groundwater not tap water that does often contain a little more salinity to start out with. Use at that level is perfectly fine anyways and a lot better than none at all. What I have learned is that most of the top show betta breeders use salinity as a tool to keep fish healthy.


She actually said 1/4 tsp (referred to them as "salt tablets large type," which I interpreted to meant AQ or maybe rock salt) per 10 liters. Don't know why I wrote 1/2 tsp... Although that did seem a little low to me, since it didn't seem like enough to treat diseases? The groundwater thing makes more sense. 

She also told me to use a little piece of IAL and 1/4 capsule of tetracyclin (said I could get them from a human pharmacy?) and together, the three things would help keep my fish healthy. The entire email was a bit vague, probably because of the language translation, but that was nice. None of the other sellers bothered with caresheets after the transaction was complete.



The goldfish pic completely flew over my head lol.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Umm. Goldfish=Sushi or whatever they labeled the packet? Odd... Very odd.


----------



## logisticsguy

The pic of the packaged fish was posted by a Thai breeder friend on fb. Apparently translated Mycket Liten Fisk translates as Very Small Fish (Swedish) and was found on the shelf of a seafood department. I suspect it may have been part of a prank myself, at least I hope it was.


----------



## logisticsguy

Fenghuang said:


> She actually said 1/4 tsp (referred to them as "salt tablets large type," which I interpreted to meant AQ or maybe rock salt) per 10 liters. Don't know why I wrote 1/2 tsp... Although that did seem a little low to me, since it didn't seem like enough to treat diseases? The groundwater thing makes more sense.
> 
> She also told me to use a little piece of IAL and 1/4 capsule of tetracyclin (said I could get them from a human pharmacy?) and together, the three things would help keep my fish healthy. The entire email was a bit vague, probably because of the language translation, but that was nice. None of the other sellers bothered with caresheets after the transaction was complete.
> 
> 
> 
> The goldfish pic completely flew over my head lol.


I agree with the thai breeder about the IAL. The tetracycline not so much. Many thai breeders use antibiotics as a preventative. I don't care for that practice myself as I believe this has helped contribute to strains of antibiotic resistant bacterium's. 1 tablespoon per 5 g is about the minimum level to keep the ich, velvet and columnaris type crap at bay ime.


----------



## logisticsguy

I am doing an article (with the help of someone who is actually literate) about salinity levels for wild and ornamental betta fish and came across this interesting study on diet and salinity.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-7345.2010.00425.x/abstract

There was also an important difference related to the presence or absence of salt:
irrespective of the diet, external parasites were observed all over the body of the larvae grown at 0 ppt. These were identiﬁed as trophonts of the dinoﬂagellate genus Piscinoodinium, which is usually found in freshwater tropical ﬁsh cultures (Ferraz and Sommerville 1998, Martins et al. 2001) and were absent in the larvae kept with the three diets at 5 ppt (Fig. 1). This parasite is the causative agent of the velvet rust disease, which is a serious threat for tropical commercial freshwater aquaculture, as well as for the aquarium trade (ShaharomHarrison et al. 1990; Lio-Po and Lim 2002). Although the antibiotic salinomycin is an effective treatment (Schmahl et al. 2006), the use of this type of drug is being progressively discouraged in terrestrial and aquatic animal husbandry (Hern´andez-Serrano 2005; Johansen et al. 2007), including the ornamental ﬁsh trade (Kleingeld et al. 2001). Other known remedies are salt dips or salt baths, although the concentrations and duration of these treatments may vary according to the sensitivity of each host species (Noga 2000; Klinger and Floyd 2009). Our results show that 5 ppt is below the level of tolerance
of B. splendens larvae, which had the same survival and growth rate than in freshwater, with the added beneﬁt of being parasite-free. After this experiment, spawners of B. splendens kept routinely at this salinity did not show any ill effect in color, feeding activity, and reproduction, and remained parasite-free conﬁrming that, apart from the beneﬁcial effect against this parasite, this salinity is adequate for B. splendens adults as well as for their larva


----------



## hrutan

I'm in the process of losing two spawns to velvet because I was too lazy to add salt to the water aging tank. Hoping enough pull through for the show season ... of course, the spawn that wasn't intended for show is doing better. Salt is such a good preventative, there's a reason why so many breeders swear by it.


----------



## logisticsguy

I agree 100%. I was actually fearful when I started using salt. I wanted to try a head to head experiment with one group at zero salinity tap water and the other at 1 ppt (1 tablespoon per 5 g) Since I was unsure I put my breeder stock in the zero group and my lesser fish in the salted water. Huge mistake. My breeders struggled and were prone to all kinds of disease, many died and never really thrived. The salt group of fugly fish did fantastic. This is when the light went on for me. We use it in all the fry tubs and grow out tanks now and I am not always having to worry constantly about barely visible pathogens. The electrolytes in the salt are also very important imho. Your breeding method thread is terrific.


----------



## hrutan

Someone on TBC asked for people to post their breeding methods for the group files. There were some FANTASTIC replies, so much fascinating information that I haven't absorbed all of it. I want to try a liver mix, for example. I cross-posted my reply in the hopes it would be useful, but like I said in the thread - that's just what works for me. I'm still in the process of refining my methods to get the healthiest fry...I was quite lucky with my first spawn that the only big problem was missing ventral fins. One of the other things I'm interested in is the properties of vitamins. B12 and C have been mentioned by some breeders for preventing growth deformities like scoliosis - I haven't tried B12 but I can say at the very least C has done no harm. Have you tried either of those supplements?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes I use supplements on a regular basis. B12 is terrific for betta fish. Ive read some old studies from the IBC files and the results were very positive. Vitachem was a great addition. Highly recommend. I also add probiotics to bloodworm feed once a week which has prevented internal parasites from getting a foothold and I haven't had a dropsy or constipation issue since doing this.


----------



## hrutan

I'll have to pick up the B12, then. Thanks.


----------



## Fenghuang

I've fed Vitachem-soaked pellets to fish that I have gotten from stores with bad fin damage and I found that it helped their fins grow back a lot faster. 

All this talk is very fascinating.

Oh, I just got a female plakat from Thailand and she reminds me of that female you use to have as your avatar. I have always thought that fish was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen.


----------



## logisticsguy

Fenghuang said:


> I've fed Vitachem-soaked pellets to fish that I have gotten from stores with bad fin damage and I found that it helped their fins grow back a lot faster.
> 
> All this talk is very fascinating.
> 
> Oh, I just got a female plakat from Thailand and she reminds me of that female you use to have as your avatar. I have always thought that fish was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen.


Oooo. I must see this female! Please post her. Its the "betta science" stuff here at bettafish that I enjoy too Feng. Vitachem really does speed the healing. I couldn't get Gilligans fins growing back (after LGG to tore him to shreds) Within a week of using Vitachem you could notice a major improvement. Impressive ingredient list imo. A bottle lasts a really long time.

Guaranteed Analysis (per ounce) 
Vita-Chem Freshwater 
Moisture 90.1% max Crude Protein 21.8% min 
Crude Fat 0.09% min Crude Fiber 2.0% 
Vitamin A 5000 IU Vitamin B12 40 mg 
Vitamin E 32 mg Thiamine hydrochloride 25 mg 
Vitamin K 20 mg Vitamin C 18 mg 
Vitamin B1 15 mg Vitamin B2 15 mg 
Vitamin B6 12 mg Biotin 4.0 mg 
L-Leucine 4.0 mg Lysine Monohydrochloride 3.0 mg 
dl-Phenylalanine 3.0 mg L-Arginine hydrochloride 2.5 mg 
dl-Isoleucine 2.0 mg Threonine 2.0 mg 
L-Methionine 1.0 mg dl-Tryptophan 1.0 mg 
L-Cystine
hydrochloride
monohydrate 1.0 mg L-Histidine
hydrochloride
monohydrate 1.0 mg


----------



## Fenghuang

Hope you don't mind me posting the picture in your journal, but here you go! I'm on the road right now, but this was a picture from shortly after she was unboxed.



Wow, full of vitamins. I never really thought about the dietary supplements we humans take being able to help fish too, not until I started reading more about this stuff online anyway. It is why I like fishkeeping. It is one of those hobbies where you just keep learning.


----------



## logisticsguy

She could be Cookies twin! Thanks for posting her. Which breeder did you get her from? This is a pic of Cookie when she got here. I miss that fish. It is amazing how much there can be to learn in this hobby. Plus there are different opinions on things like diet, tank size, medications ect. I learn something new every day but Im getting old and forgetting something every day as well. Good luck with that beauty koi girl she is lovely.


----------



## Fenghuang

I got her from an Aquabid seller called Fantasybettas. She was listed as a "Fancy Silver HMPK." I'm actually astounded by how much bigger she is than I expected... Not quite a giant, but she is definitely one of the largest normal females I've ever seen. The auction pictures did not do her justice. She looked pretty scrawny in them, but I loved those "dalmation" spots and she was cheap. Goes to show that crummy pictures may not be representative of the fish. :-D 

I always loved your pictures of Cookie. Always thought she was so cool and unique looking.


----------



## JHatchett

I have been following your salt conversation with interest. I was wondering, at the lowish maintenance dose, if it would be safe in my planted tanks with my Nerite snails?


----------



## logisticsguy

There are a few plants that are somewhat sensitive to salt but the vast majority will do just as well as before. The plant matter that suffered the most with low level salinity in my tanks was the slimy green algae which was ok by me. I keep nerite and assassin snails and they have been same as always. 

This is from a snail site re salinity. Snails should do just fine with 1 ppt. maybe even better because snails have to deal with bad bacteria just like betta.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/snail/nerite.php

Some people find Nerite snails are very hard to breed while others state that they breed like rabbits. The truth likely depends on the aquarium in which they are kept and the exact species kept. They only breed in brackish water (1.005-1.010 salinity); they never be breed in freshwater and only seldom breed in saltwater


----------



## MattsBettas

Today's the day, how was the auction?


----------



## Velxunai

logisticsguy said:


> Yes I use supplements on a regular basis. B12 is terrific for betta fish. Ive read some old studies from the IBC files and the results were very positive. Vitachem was a great addition. Highly recommend. I also add probiotics to bloodworm feed once a week which has prevented internal parasites from getting a foothold and I haven't had a dropsy or constipation issue since doing this.


Would you say it would help aid a fish already infected with dropsy? I'm not sure if it is dropsy she has but basically she swims vertically rather than horizontally. She's doing a lot better strength wise since I first got her but she still swims that way.


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> Today's the day, how was the auction?


The turnout was massive. Plus there was a huge amount of stuff for sale. Prices were higher especially for plants. I picked up some used tanks for cheap. I took some axolotls and they were a big hit and got really good prices for them imo. I had the only betta for sale there and sold 7, I should have taken more of both species in hindsight. I made a lot more than I spent which is a pleasant surprise. Fish + auctions = happy me. The Edmonton auction is April 19 I believe. 



Velxunai said:


> Would you say it would help aid a fish already infected with dropsy? I'm not sure if it is dropsy she has but basically she swims vertically rather than horizontally. She's doing a lot better strength wise since I first got her but she still swims that way.


Well dropsy often shows when the kidneys get infected, usually from an aeromonas infectection When this goes systemic (internal) it can contribute to dropsy. You can help prevent it by soaking dry foods so as to not introduce air into the intestines which can start an Aeromonas infection in the intestines and swim bladder. You can soak pellets in water, garlic juice, liquid vitamin mix, or even medication mix if fish is sickly. Keep the water params good and include positive mineral ions by adding a little aquarium salt. Use antibiotics sparingly, many have side affects on the liver and kidneys such as Neomycin and Tetracycline. Kanamycin is a better choice. However antibiotics will often lay waste to your fish good gut bacteria (microflora) which is why I try to not ever use them if possible. You may have better outcome with just using a probiotic at this point sprinkled on bloodworm. I will say that not very many betta make it back from full blown dropsy due to liver and kidney damage. Hope this helps.


----------



## Dakky

Hey CJ, were all the bettas/axolotls yours? I spotted them right away and pointed them out to my mom. Kinda wished my tank had been ready for any one of them, I would've adopted them in a heartbeat! It was super cool to go though, first time at an auction and I was super overwhelmed right away.


----------



## logisticsguy

All the betta were mine. They were from the Zues/Chi spawn. I was a little surprised there were no other betta. There was another seller of axolotl. Mine were the ones in the plastic containers. The other seller brought some very tiny fry, barely hatched and imho too small to be sold as they should be fed new hatch bbs at that age and not everyone is up to speed on the care for them. I don't like to sell them until the axolotl is 2.5-3 inches. Did you buy anything there? The selection was fantastic.


----------



## Dakky

Yup! I bought a few plants for my tank, and because my mom was with me, we got a 20G tank as well as some guppies. For some odd reason she really wanted guppies, so I'm gonna set up that 20G tonight and get those guppies in there. I spent most of last night setting up my 5G with the plants so the tank can start cycling, but I'm a little worried that my sponge filter is producing too strong a current. It bubbles quite a bit, which doesn't bother me, but I'm worried about my future fish.

The guppies are currently in dechlorinated, aquarium treated water in a bucket that I did my best to keep at room temp, which I think is 25C right now. I'm probably going to do a water change, or if I can get the 20G set up before bed, get them acclimated to the tank.

Ahh yes I saw the tiny, tiny axolotl, I was very surprised to see them there. I know I definitely wouldn't know enough to care for them at that age. Zues/Chi spawn were all gorgeous! Next time I'll snag one for sure!


----------



## logisticsguy

Half giant Nero. 30.00


----------



## logisticsguy

Gilligan x LGG Lots of growing since upsizing the tank size. It really does make a huge difference. All fish in this spawn 15.00


----------



## Tress

What a beautiful tail on Nero! Do you find it drags/slows him down any? My RT has a bit of trouble with the weight but I moved him to a more planted tank.


----------



## logisticsguy

Females for sale from sorority. Odds are they will get along very well together.

Eggy girls that would likely be fairly easy to breed. All females 10.00


----------



## logisticsguy

Chester x SP009 The experimental spawn. Big for their age. Yellow dominant. You just never know with these fish. All fish in this spawn 20.00 Ultra hyper fish.


----------



## Tress

Loving your Dal girls, if only shipping wasn't so painfully costly...

Gah you keep posting just before I do lol. Gosh your fish are so pretty and cute and I just wanna raid your fish room >.< Loving the yellows in the experimental spawn, especially the girl with the blue.


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> Loving your Dal girls, if only shipping wasn't so painfully costly...


Yes the shipping is a huge problem just ridiculously costly in Canada. It is impossible to ship to the USA and also hard to get US fish shipped to Canada. The import export rules are stupid. Grrr...sorry had to vent.



Tress said:


> What a beautiful tail on Nero! Do you find it drags/slows him down any? My RT has a bit of trouble with the weight but I moved him to a more planted tank.


It may a little but not much. I try to flare the boys every day to keep them fit so that helps but I would not want fins any larger. This is about max fin imho


----------



## Tress

logisticsguy said:


> Yes the shipping is a huge problem just ridiculously costly in Canada. It is impossible to ship to the USA and also hard to get US fish shipped to Canada. The import export rules are stupid. Grrr...sorry had to vent.


I'm sure the shipping has put a dent in the amount of people breeding here in Canada. I wish it wasn't so bad as I'd not only love to buy fish from you, but other breeders as well. But between the cost and unreliability of the post its not worth it. So many times you send something suppose to be next day and it's a week late. Or shredded.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Always a pleasure to see update photos of you fish!


----------



## Dakky

Oh my goodness CJ, they are all so gorgeous! I'll definitely be sending you a PM about fish/pick up dates and such. Oh so excited~


----------



## MattsBettas

I'm coming down this weekend. Will PM because I want a few of these for sure.


----------



## logisticsguy

Dakky said:


> Oh my goodness CJ, they are all so gorgeous! I'll definitely be sending you a PM about fish/pick up dates and such. Oh so excited~


Excellent looking forward to seeing you! Saving the green one for you. 



MattsBettas said:


> I'm coming down this weekend. Will PM because I want a few of these for sure.


Terrific! I am looking forward to seeing you Matt. I have a class 8am to 1pm Saturday but can work around it. The rest of my weekend is all carpet cleaning and water changes. Having a very old dog and a living/fish room can take a toll on carpets.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## BlueInkFish

Haha.

I really wish Inwere in Canada in order to purchase from your lovely spawns!

Please send us photos of your trip Matt! Haha. *whispers* While your there steal me some fish!!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

Ive been so busy at work it has cut into my hobby time. So annoying because there are things I want to do but just don't get to it. Set up 2 more tanks and shuffled fish around. I think the betta enjoy a change of scenery once in awhile.

Baby HM betta for sale. Giant gene. Marble gene.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Ack!!! I'm just being tormented by your photos and fish... Their making me want to move to Canada! Haha, lovely fish CJ, as always!


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Blue. I may need to smuggle fish into the USA lol. Speaking of this there is an upcoming IBC show here in Canada for the first time in 35 years. The USA breeders cant apparently bring the show fish back to the States which I find completely stupid. Their fish will be auctioned off at the end of the show. Needless to say this is my big and only chance to grab the terrific genetics of breeders I admire greatly.


----------



## logisticsguy

Pics from the room today. My fishguard dogs Fat Lucy and Super Goober.










Juvi HM females. Boy I have had a majority of females in the last few spawns. I suspect hard water is the reason.




























8 week old Baby axolotls are growing like weeds.










Boris is a long fin gaint and one of my favorites. When I do my next spawns in the fall he is on the shortlist of potential breeding males.










Liam was here today He is 4 now and we hadn't seen each other in months. Boy do kids grow quickly. He is going to be a master fish keeper. 










This chubby adult wild female axolotl is Daisy. She is very tame and likes to be held and petted.


----------



## Fenghuang

That is a very betta-like looking axolotl you have. Lol! ;-)

But beautiful like always.


----------



## logisticsguy

Haha I had to edit...oops. Had to laugh when I saw it. Where did Daisy go? Lol


----------



## MattsBettas

Great to see everything! Love the fish and axies as always. The axolotls were very impressive in person- they get huge!


----------



## BlueInkFish

Your very lucky for that IBC show! There's a show down here going on in Ca, around June or July. I'm still waiting so I can get some nice quality or at least breedable quality stock! 

Love the fish, the axolotls, and Liam, he's really cute! Wonder if he's going to be the next generation Betta breeder? *whistles*


----------



## SiameseFightingArt

Does hard water affect betta gender in spawns?


----------



## logisticsguy

SiameseFightingArt said:


> Does hard water affect betta gender in spawns?


Its hard to find any reliable scientific studies. From what Ive seen and friends of mine experience I believe it does. PH and temperature play a roll as well. It is hard to quantify. I know Gerald Griffen has some ideas on this and Im hoping he shares info in an upcoming edition of Flare.


----------



## logisticsguy

I like betta too much and have a photography course going on so expect some over postinIg here. Wife says " Taking more photos of fish!" Why yes dear it part of my home work.


----------



## logisticsguy

Lets talk water conditioners with Carl Strohmeyer.

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html


----------



## logisticsguy

We have a new breeder giant coming in next shipment. This boy is from the same line as Cookie! Massive betta who will likely be paired with a female here named Little Green Giant. So much for taking the summer off from spawns.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Beautiful!! I cannot wait!!!


----------



## Fenghuang

What a gorgeous male! Are there any particular sellers from, say, Aquabid that you recommend, LG?


----------



## BlueInkFish

I love te new avatar  !


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks. This got me thinking. I am going to make a post regarding breeders and which ones I like. They can be good at different things. A mini breeder review maybe. There are also top notch breeders in the US that I can recommend. Going to work on a list.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Please post the link so I may see it! It will be very helpful, to new breeders or buyers or anyone whose wanting to buy a new fish!


----------



## MattsBettas

He looks a lot like that first giant boy you got (the one that lived in the 33g and ended up getting internal parasites). That's a good thing. Excited to see where this goes...


----------



## Fenghuang

logisticsguy said:


> Thanks. This got me thinking. I am going to make a post regarding breeders and which ones I like. They can be good at different things. A mini breeder review maybe. There are also top notch breeders in the US that I can recommend. Going to work on a list.


Oh, yes, please do!


----------



## logisticsguy

I must say there is a real value to joining the IBC. You get access to years of study on betta and there is really no better place to learn for a betta nerd. The Flare magazine alone is well worth the cost of membership. Speaking of Flare I was surprised and flattered to see myself quoted on Page 8 of the magazine. Im also excited to be going to the IBC show in Burlington in May, there will be lots of beautiful fish and wonderful people to see there. The speakers list is just awesome, its going to be a good time. Now I just have to get the fish Im taking to the show and auction in good shape. Lots of flare training going on here for my chubby out of shape fish.


----------



## Dakky

*Levi*

I just started my own journal but I couldn't resist posting here as well since well, this is part of Levi's origin story~

CJ can tell you more, Levi is from Gilligan x LGG's spawn, about 10-11 weeks old.


----------



## logisticsguy

I like his name. Levi looks really happy in his new home. Awesome that you started a journal, it can really come in handy later and tracks your story. Levi is a hyper active little fish and is very people friendly.


----------



## Olympia

Hey LG, I was wondering if you have any PK giants or recessive giants you are planning on bringing for sale/auction to the show (and photos if possible)?  Am really interested in going still aha...


----------



## logisticsguy

MattsBettas said:


> He looks a lot like that first giant boy you got (the one that lived in the 33g and ended up getting internal parasites). That's a good thing. Excited to see where this goes...


Yes he does look like Moose. They are from the same line. Im thinking of pairing him with the LGG girl that just keeps growing. 



Olympia said:


> Hey LG, I was wondering if you have any PK giants or recessive giants you are planning on bringing for sale/auction to the show (and photos if possible)?  Am really interested in going still aha...


Im planning on bringing 4 long fin giant brothers to the show and a few bigger females. There is no giant class so the boys will be in tough. The high ph and hard water takes a toll on fins imho so I don't suspect they will do terribly well but that doesn't really matter. The speakers are excellent and it will be a lot of fun so you should go! It will nice to bring some good fish home as well so I plan on being a terror at the auction :-D


----------



## logisticsguy

These 2 betta are in the spawn tub. LGG is busy showing the boy the ropes. She is leading the charge and they are getting lots of good wraps and an unreal amount off eggs. She will look like a skinny mini when this is all finished.


----------



## logisticsguy

The Farm is moving at the end of the month. OMG what a huge job this will be.

Pics from growout 1 today.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow!!!! So vibrant!!!


----------



## Tealight03

I love your fish. If only I lived in Canada. Also find your salt discussions fascinating. Using a small preventative dose is definitely something I will try.


----------



## SiameseFightingArt

I would gladly buy some fry from you, but alas I am in America :*(


----------



## Dakky

Oh CJ these all look so fantastic! I think my mom wants a red guy, but... that will be much later on I think. Still dealing with the ich >__<.


----------



## logisticsguy

litelboyblu said:


> Wow!!!! So vibrant!!!


Thanks Blu!



Tealight03 said:


> I love your fish. If only I lived in Canada. Also find your salt discussions fascinating. Using a small preventative dose is definitely something I will try.


Glad your going to try it! Its helped me tremendously.



SiameseFightingArt said:


> I would gladly buy some fry from you, but alas I am in America :*(


Thanks I really wish shipping between our countries was easier and cheaper.



Dakky said:


> Oh CJ these all look so fantastic! I think my mom wants a red guy, but... that will be much later on I think. Still dealing with the ich >__<.


Thanks Kimmy. The little koi girl is bouncing back really well, she is eating like a pig and getting very active, she is going to make it! I will have a nice red one for her when you get rid of that stupid Ich.


----------



## logisticsguy

This female fry is turning out very interesting.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Very unusual colour pattern. I saw a female in the AB thread not long ago that had a yellow front half, and a blue back half. Reminds me of your girl.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow!! What a beauty!!!


----------



## Nimble

She'll marble up in time, just watch.


----------



## Tress

Pretty gal :3


----------



## logisticsguy

It is official. CJs Betta Farm is moving beginning next week. 32 tanks with 175 betta and 127 axolotl will now be calling Carstairs Alberta home. This will be a massive job but we are super excited to have a home of our own again.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/CJs-Betta-Farm/559336224166130


----------



## BlueInkFish

Yay!!!! I really wish I could move to Canada!!! Bah, those borders!


----------



## Fenghuang

That's it. I think I am just going up to Canada and bagging up half your fish room. Thanks. :lol: Just kidding. Maybe.

Congratulations on the move and good luck!


----------



## BlueInkFish

Fenghuang said:


> That's it. I think I am just going up to Canada and bagging up half your fish room. Thanks. :lol: Just kidding. Maybe.
> 
> Congratulations on the move and good luck!


I'll tag along with you Femg!! CJs fish are just too gorgeous!


----------



## logisticsguy

Having a hard time loading video at bettafish


----------



## Elleth

Over the last few days I've read your entire journal. I started reading it because my husband and I are considering getting a giant or king betta for our next one (depends on if we get it from Aquabid or Petco) and I also want to breed eventually (when we aren't in an apartment, lol) and your journal fit the bill for learning more about both things. I've really enjoyed reading it, and it has been super informative, thank you so much for sharing your experiences! I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts, and seeing more of your lovely bettas and axolotls.


----------



## logisticsguy

Elleth said:


> Over the last few days I've read your entire journal. I started reading it because my husband and I are considering getting a giant or king betta for our next one (depends on if we get it from Aquabid or Petco) and I also want to breed eventually (when we aren't in an apartment, lol) and your journal fit the bill for learning more about both things. I've really enjoyed reading it, and it has been super informative, thank you so much for sharing your experiences! I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts, and seeing more of your lovely bettas and axolotls.


Thank you Elleth! Im glad you read it, Its kinda long so that is impressive. I hope the info helps you along the way. Your post made my day! :-D


----------



## Elleth

logisticsguy said:


> Thank you Elleth! Im glad you read it, Its kinda long so that is impressive. I hope the info helps you along the way. Your post made my day! :-D


I could hardly stop, lol. I love the more scientific approach you take, it's definitely helpful to a newbie like me. Your posts and the articles you shared swayed me in favor of using AQ salt all the time, I'd been on the fence because I couldn't find much information I considered reliable, but you provided a ton of good information, thank you so much! I really appreciated the info about the steps you take to keep your fish healthy, really awesome to read it all. I think I can say that your journal had helped me already.  I will echo the sentiments of many others and say it's too bad you are in Canada! I want one of your fish, lol!


----------



## logisticsguy

This is Gx202. 3.5 month old 5 cm HM Gilligans son.


----------



## Tress

He's lovely CJ!


----------



## BlueInkFish

I want....


----------



## logisticsguy

This is Gx203 Scrappy lil fish


----------



## Tress

You make such gorgeous fish CJ! I hope one day I'll be able to own one of yours


----------



## logisticsguy

Tress said:


> You make such gorgeous fish CJ! I hope one day I'll be able to own one of yours


Thanks Tress! We will get one to you one day and it will be a nice one! Im going to try and post a new fish everyday for awhile as I jar the juvi males from my spawns. I have a few young giant females coming up.


----------



## logisticsguy

Young giant HM for sale. 5.3 cm @4 months 50.00


----------



## BlueInkFish

GORGEOUS! I wish I lived in Canada!!!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

litelboyblu said:


> GORGEOUS! I wish I lived in Canada!!!!!


It sure would be easier for me to ship if I lived in the US 

That boy is one gentle giant. He hardly ever flares and never bullied in the grow out at all. This is GX205 a regular sized HM.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow!!!! What a beauty!!! I think you need to move down here instead


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## SiameseFightingArt

I'm totally saving that photo XD


----------



## BlueInkFish

Haha! A beautiful and seems like a very wide personality fish!


----------



## logisticsguy

We are finally all moved in to the new (very old) house. Let me say that moving 34 tanks and a pile of jars is not easy on the fish or the fish keeper. I am exhausted but trying to get my fish room back in order. We only had 1 fish die but I am not sure from what. 

This is a long fin giant 5.1 cm @ 4 months for sale for 40. Not quite a 180 spread but close enough that some flare training should get him there.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Only if I lived in Canada, I would snatch him faster than a blink of an eye.


----------



## logisticsguy

The fish did really well at the BBC/IBC betta show on the weekend. We got 1st and 2nd in the Div A class male as well as 1st and 2nd in Div A female. The organizers worked really hard and deserve a ton of credit. Makes all the late night water changes a little more worth it. The show winners will be bred in a month or 2 after the jarred males are mostly sold. 

All the males from my spawns have been finally pulled creating 4 little sororities. They will be combined into 2 so that should be interesting to watch how they get along. Late bloomers can end up being your best fish. 

The move to a new house sucked the life outta me. Moving 34 tanks and not killing fish was a challenge but lucky only lost 1 fish. Almost completely set up again here but much work still to do.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is GX208. He is fresh from the grow out tank and has an attitude. Enjoys flare training and is very people friendly. He is a regular size betta. 15.00


----------



## BlueInkFish

Stunning!


----------



## Elenadoran

*My own betta from CJ*

Omg, love this fish so much! Regular size half moon. I called him Yuko. Thank you so much CJ, He's feisty and a good eater!


----------



## logisticsguy

So glad you like him. He is one frisky fish. Always like it when they get a good home!
His brother came in 2nd at the show.


----------



## logisticsguy

From the Experimental spawn. 










From the Gilligan x SPoo9 spawn.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Congratulations!


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Blu. Hard work pays off 10,000 water changes later. Proud of my little guys.


----------



## BlueInkFish

They sure do! You should be proud! We're proud for you too! I'm glad everything is going well!


----------



## Stone

Congrats on the wins, wished the shipping was not so high from canada to the us, I would buy some of your fish, I know they are bred and raised in hard water and that would be perfect for my crappy water. BTW have you switched form prime to safe? well I should say powdered prime?


----------



## IslandGirl7408

Is girl number one a marble fish? Will she change colour?


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> Congrats on the wins, wished the shipping was not so high from canada to the us, I would buy some of your fish, I know they are bred and raised in hard water and that would be perfect for my crappy water. BTW have you switched form prime to safe? well I should say powdered prime?


Thanks Stone. Yes it really stinks about the cross border shipping. It should be a heck of a lot easier than it is. One of my fish did get purchased at the show auction and is now in Oklahoma. 

I have not tried the Safe. I am pretty slow to change things up these days. I am open to trying it though but seems hard product to find here in Canada. You and I need to catch up to each other on fb.



IslandGirl7408 said:


> Is girl number one a marble fish? Will she change colour?


Yes those fry carry the marble gene and giant gene. She did not giant but her marble gene sure active and she has changed a lot since the pic.


----------



## logisticsguy

This young giant female got 1st in the solid female class. She is a tank.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow, what a beauty!


----------



## Fenghuang

Wow. She is a beauty. Congrats on your wins! I just remembered why those pictures look familiar—I saw them on Facebook!


----------



## kjg1029

wow! shes absolutely lovely!

goodluck with her


----------



## Stone

I switched to safe, as a means to save money to buy other things, it works just awesome, it stinks but you only need 1/4 teaspoon for 25 gallons of water I bought a kilo of it for like 30 bucks shipped it will treat something like 250,000 gallons of water, other than when you open up the jar and the smell it's just like prime, prime stinks but yeah this is to the next level, but once it is in the water it does not stink. I marked my 25 gallon tub for water changes with a 10 gallon mark and use 1/8 a teaspoon for when I am doing top offs or not all of my tanks to make it easier.You can add it straight to the tank if you really wanted to, to tank volume of course, but that would be wasting it in my opinion, I will report back in a month or so to give a solid opinion as I have only been using it for about 2 weeks now, so far so good


----------



## Stone

yeah we need to friend on FB


----------



## logisticsguy

Wheelchair for sbd fish.


----------



## IslandGirl7408

No way! Is this for real? How did you get it on the fish? How did you figure out how much cork you needed?


----------



## Fenghuang

It's cute. Is it your fish, LG?


----------



## logisticsguy

Not my fish lol. Im a betta only guy but I do have goldie friends. Ive had a few sbd fish with a stone tied to their butt and this did seem brilliant to me. I do have an sbd girl that's very old but a real sweetheart and I may try this on her.


----------



## logisticsguy

Meet Bruce aka HSP025. He is a young homegrown giant. Very easy going mellow fellow with a monster appetite. Currently reserved.


----------



## logisticsguy

This is Gx222. Male HM betta for sale 20$. He is medium size, very healthy and active fish never cup poisoned at a store. Can ship in Canada only. Free delivery in Calgary.


----------



## InStitches

wow, gorgeous boys


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## logisticsguy

Young healthy giant female betta for sale. $30 each I can only ship in Canada. 
2 inches at 4 months from the experimental spawn. Only 5 left.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Stunning! I really like the 2nd one!


----------



## Fenghuang

Oh my gosh, LOOK at that orange girl. If I wasn't broke, I would drive up to Canada just for her!


----------



## logisticsguy

litelboyblu said:


> Stunning! I really like the 2nd one!


Thanks Blu. I really like her too. This spawn was an experiment but the fish turned out way better than I expected and is really a combo of all the genetics Ive been working with for 2 years. A brother got 1st place at the show which was a pleasant surprise. 



Fenghuang said:


> Oh my gosh, LOOK at that orange girl. If I wasn't broke, I would drive up to Canada just for her!


Thanks Fenghuang! She is the biggest of all the female giants in the spawn and this fish just keeps growing. Super sweet personality. I am seriously considering her as a breeder when I start doing spawns again in the fall. Really long drive for you to get here lol. :-D


----------



## Fenghuang

logisticsguy said:


> Thanks Fenghuang! She is the biggest of all the female giants in the spawn and this fish just keeps growing. Super sweet personality. I am seriously considering her as a breeder when I start doing spawns again in the fall. Really long drive for you to get here lol. :-D


Don't tempt me! I am a lot closer to the Canadian border at the moment, the fam is driving me nuts, and I just might make a run for it. Don't want to stroll into your living room one morning to find me disheveled and dripping wet standing over your growout tank with a bunch of plastic bags, do you...? :lol:


----------



## BlueInkFish

Hehe, I'll be right along with you Feng! CJ's fish are just to gorgeous not too snatch!


----------



## DangerousAngel

The dark orange one is gorgeous!! Are all these Bettas you've been posting from your spawns?


----------



## logisticsguy

DangerousAngel said:


> The dark orange one is gorgeous!! Are all these Bettas you've been posting from your spawns?


Yes they are. Some of the late bloomers are really coming into their own in the last week. Im excited to show the jarred males that are just about ready to sell. I should have new pics of the next batch in a few days.


----------



## DangerousAngel

Sweet! They're all very gorgeous! I wish you luck in selling them!


----------



## logisticsguy

This is GX235. Note to self. Never try to raise 800 fry at the same time ever again.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I'm always jealous of your fish!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

Here is another one of Gilligan's sons. This is Gx240.


----------



## Heidispice

Really beautiful! Do you ever post pictures of your setup raising all of those babies? I'd love to see it.


----------



## logisticsguy

I haven't posted any pics of my set up for awhile. I grow out some juvi males in 1 gallon containers and it set off a negative reaction from some people about tank size. I may sometime though. Here are some pics from today in grow out #2.


----------



## BlueInkFish

So beautiful.....


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Blu I love the little guys.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Who on earth would have an issue with a breeder growing out bettas in one gallon tanks? Especially looking at your fish, which are always a picture of health.


----------



## logisticsguy

LittleBettaFish said:


> Who on earth would have an issue with a breeder growing out bettas in one gallon tanks? Especially looking at your fish, which are always a picture of health.


Yeah some don't understand. Anything less than 5g was cruelty apparently. I do the best I can to give them all the space possible but 1 gallon didn't cut it. If I had all my fry in 5-10 gallon I would need a warehouse.


----------



## logisticsguy

My wife really likes this 10 week old betta.


----------



## Fenghuang

I have a couple of imports still in 32 oz. mason jars and I don't even have the excuse of 200 fry spawns. 1 gallon a piece is amazing with the number of fish you have. You produce beautiful fish to show for your good betta husbandry. Don't let them get you down.


----------



## Stone

Shrugs, people have opinions, size is not everything, it takes effort to take care of fish and you put in the effort, they would go nuts if they saw a thai betta breeding operation.


----------



## logisticsguy

Fenghuang said:


> I have a couple of imports still in 32 oz. mason jars and I don't even have the excuse of 200 fry spawns. 1 gallon a piece is amazing with the number of fish you have. You produce beautiful fish to show for your good betta husbandry. Don't let them get you down.


Thanks. You can keep the water quality really great as long as you have a strict water change schedule with containers.


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> Shrugs, people have opinions, size is not everything, it takes effort to take care of fish and you put in the effort, they would go nuts if they saw a thai betta breeding operation.


Yes agreed if you compare thai methods with my own I provide a McMansion by compare. I understand them wanting the best for the fish. So we had over 700 fry and now am down to only 65 left. Getting the itch to do a spawn of a pair of Giants I have before they get too old. I was going to wait until fall but Im not going anywhere this summer anyways. Next weeks project! Here are 3 more young males ready to go.




























And this is Roman a rescue VT that is a huge boy and major character.


----------



## logisticsguy

Some pics from the grow out room today.



















This young giant female has a bumpy topline but I like her.










Im amazed at how well these young giant female sisters get along. Never saw any aggression by these girls they are the best of friends.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I'm very jealous!!! That first boy is such a stunner!


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes I like that flashy lil dude myself Blu. EX111 is a long fin giant boy.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Oooh, ahhh. I'm very fond of yellow bettas ;-) I really wish I lived in Canada :/ But then again, if I ever did, my house would be full with fish all from you LOL!


----------



## sharkettelaw1

At my local lfs, they have a mustard gas giant and several Vt giants, not often i see those


----------



## logisticsguy

sharkettelaw1 said:


> At my local lfs, they have a mustard gas giant and several Vt giants, not often i see those


Oh how I wish I could get some of those! I never see giants in any of my lfs and VT giant would be awesome!


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## InStitches

that is so cool


----------



## Elleth

Oh wow! Gonna have to take some time and study that.


----------



## sharkettelaw1

I went back, and he's still there, sharing a tank with a giant female. They are literally so cheap so I might go get them and give them a home and perhaps send you photos of them? I'm just worried about keeping a big girl like that in a sorority


----------



## logisticsguy

Finally got another giant pair to spawn Yay! My biggest female kept beating the holy hell out of the giant males. She is one tough sob but Iron Mike finally submitted her but not without an epic battle. Female is in a salty bath now and was fed probiotic bloodworms right after removal. The month after spawning is rough for betta. It takes a lot out of them and immune systems are often a little down. Doing extra for them often prevents sickness or death. Adding Vitachem, aquarium salt, probiotic mix and methylene blue dips to the care has helped and fish can spawn again much shorter time frame.


----------



## logisticsguy

sharkettelaw1 said:


> I went back, and he's still there, sharing a tank with a giant female. They are literally so cheap so I might go get them and give them a home and perhaps send you photos of them? I'm just worried about keeping a big girl like that in a sorority


Did you get them? I added a giant female to my regular sorority once and it scared the regular girls pretty bad so removed her to her own 5g apartment. Don't think they should be sharing a tank either holy cow! :shock:


----------



## logisticsguy

I sure do like my friends new fish!


----------



## IslandGirl7408

So is that fish considered an Armageddon since it has red and yellow touching?


----------



## logisticsguy

IslandGirl7408 said:


> So is that fish considered an Armageddon since it has red and yellow touching?



I would consider the fish Armageddon for sure


----------



## sharkettelaw1

I'm going back in a few days for supplies, gonna take both of them. Because those fools insist on the pair sharing a small tank


----------



## logisticsguy

sharkettelaw1 said:


> I'm going back in a few days for supplies, gonna take both of them. Because those fools insist on the pair sharing a small tank


That would be terrific because they have no future in a tank together at the store. Just crazy because at some point it will get ugly. May want to remind them that these are Siamese fighting fish after all. Obviously these fish are either sick or luckily very mellow.


----------



## Nimble

That is most definitely an Armageddon.

Unlike the Dalmatian gene, which can be confused for Armageddon to those who don't know the difference, your friend has a real-deal Armageddon.


----------



## sharkettelaw1

They usually keep them separated but I think because they are veils they regard them as easily discarded fish. I really like the boy though. Female is constantly stressed from obvious reasons.. I would have taken him yesterday but I found a melano delta which black fighters are so incredibly rare here that letting them go is letting an opportunity slip. But I'm certainly going back for that mg.. Girl two. I have empty tanks so may as well set them up ^.^ you don't want to know where they house their hi fin sharks X.X they cannibalize each other.


----------



## logisticsguy

I am considering changing my focus with betta fish. These days Im finding myself wanting to help betta I see on the verge of death at stores. Maybe devote myself to rescue, rehab and rehome. To do this I would need to use all my tanks for this purpose. It would be a rescue for all freshwater fish for people that cant look after them anymore due to the extreme economic downturn in this area. I could use all the skills I developed breeding for a better purpose maybe? I could put stores "feet to the fire" more about care than I do now as an occasional betta supplier. Just deep thinking tonight. Any thoughts?


----------



## Stone

When I have a tank or tanks empty I usually rescue a sickly betta from somewhere (usually walmart) I have 3 right now all from walmart one big blue veiltail, and 2 crowntails, they are both pretty unusual looking fish, I need to take some pics of them, I am good at nursing a fish back to health, but the re-homing part I suck at because I keep them and let them live out their lives which has usually been shortened by their ordeal. Elvis's old tank is sitting empty right now but it is an experiment I am doing with one of those citric acid and baking soda co2 generators, just has a bunch of assassin snails and their food trumpet snail in it, I am working on the fine tuning and do not want to co2 gas a fish to death, and it is under major re-scaping, I got an awesome deal on a mixed lot of Bucephalandra plants that I have attached to a nice piece of spiderwood. I need to change out the little internal filter with my little zoomed 501 canister filter. Maybe once I get it settled in I will get another giant or rescue another from walmart. I will say as far as rescuing goes meth blue is like one of the most awesome things ever.I need to do some photos of my wild simorums as well, out of the 5 I got only 2 survived 1 died form unknown causes, and the other 2 totally my fault for not closing the lid on my tank and they jumped. The 2 left are either both females or 2 of the most passive males ever, could be a pair but I have never seen them build a bubble nest or attempt to spawn, but they get along perfectly fine and are huge fish long and slender, longer than typical giants for sure but not as beefy.


----------



## logisticsguy

A few pics from the room.


----------



## InStitches

those are some good looking fish


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## BlueInkFish

Wow!!! Stunning as always!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

Well its way past time for an update. All of the Gilligan spawn have been sold...all 456 of them. His son leo recently fathered his own spawn with a giant female from the Experimental spawn. We did 2 more giant spawns right after so lots of babies swimming around again. Looks like a good % of giant fry which makes me happy. I have a fish dungeon these days in my 1904 house basement. Wife made me move almost all fish stuff out of bedrooms lol.


----------



## BlueInkFish

I love those 2 fish in the first photo. The one on the lefts color is stunning, I also adore that embrace shot, simply fascinating!


----------



## themamaj

Your fish are amazing! Are giant fry notably larger than a regular fry? Genetic and breeding really interest me. I recently joined IBC as well to learn more.


----------



## logisticsguy

themamaj said:


> Your fish are amazing! Are giant fry notably larger than a regular fry? Genetic and breeding really interest me. I recently joined IBC as well to learn more.
> 
> Thanks! Sorry so long for a reply. Yes giants are usually a little bigger early but just keep growing at a faster rate as weeks go by. It looks like Ive worked out the hunch in my giant hm line mostly. So happy with the 3 spawns. They are 8 weeks old now and I love raising betta and watching them grow is the best part for me. These are a couple of pics of spawn 1 which only had about 13 fry. Only 3 boys in the batch. One juvi female is already 1.5 inches body only a real tank of a betta fish.
> 
> Spawn 2 had a genetic anomaly...a really good one to have. Double tails appeared out of nowhere in my giant hm line. After some research I found this is an extremely rare event. For show fish its good as DT produces long beautiful dorsals that do very well. A champion show breeder friend had it happen in her line and her fish do great at show events. The hope is that dorsal remains long and line goes back to producing nice D shaped caudles. About 10 of the hundred fry have this anomaly and should make good breeding prospects. I should have pics of this batch in a few days.
> 
> Spawn 3 has no giants which is not surprising as Leo (Dad) is not giant (has gene) just very good form and pretty imho. This batch is smaller fry but cute. There are about 70 in this batch.
> 
> For the first time ever Ive not lost one single fry in any batch. Everything that hatched is still growing and only 2 fry were culled total both had spine bends. All the axoltl fry have been sold but Ive kept a male and female piebald morphs to keep and breed and we are also hatching a small batch of albino axolotl hope to have them hatched next week. In pic 1 you can see the size difference in giants on left and regular size on right at same age. Cheers!


----------



## themamaj

They are so cute!! What a great experience to have an anomaly. It sounds like you are doing a amazing job with your fry. I think seeing the traits that come out and watching them grow would be very rewarding.


----------



## BlueInkFish

Glad everything is going well! I love the first two photos, especially!


----------



## logisticsguy

Its been awhile so time for updates. We have 4 spawns growing right now.

1. Giant HM x Giant HM ready Jan25
2. Show longfin HM x Giant HMPK ready Feb.10
3. Slow longfin dumbo HM x Show longfin dumbo HM ready Feb.25
4. Giant HM x dumbo HM ready March 10

Things have been going well and my techniques for growing out much larger giants have improved. One thing Ive found is density of stocking is critical. Less fish equals faster growth and in the end larger fish so more growouts are being used for the same number of fry. From week 4-10 I do double the amount of water changes now and introduce spirulina to the diet earlier in week 3. We are on generation 12 of giant line 1, a more stable fin quality and plus size numbers have improved. I have a few breeder quality fry ready now but too cold to ship, they can be picked up at the house though. A strange anomaly has occurred as well. Giant DTs popped up out of a HM spawn so amazing and rare. Some of the giant DTs will be used in an upcoming spawn. Sibling females for sororities are on sale for 5 dollars each and they are very docile peaceful with each other. The first pic is one of the baby DT giants. Is there a way to post videos here at bettafish?


----------



## themamaj

The double tail was first thing I noticed! Amazing! Pineapple boy so beautiful! Are your females all different colors? How many fry do you typically grow out with a spawn?


----------



## logisticsguy

themamaj said:


> The double tail was first thing I noticed! Amazing! Pineapple boy so beautiful! Are your females all different colors? How many fry do you typically grow out with a spawn?


Yes lots of different colors with the girls. I get blue, green, purples yellows and oranges now with some multi colors. It varies in spawn size. Ive done as little as 3 and high as 400. Ive found that 20-30 works best for me so I try to limit the spawn size to keep good growth and not have too many fish at once for sale or be overwhelmed with work. It is super rare for Dts to pop up in a 12+generation HM line. I'm just not sure what the giant DT x Giant DT will produce since they from HM line so it will be interesting. Thanks for the compliment themamaj good to see you!


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

Have been avidly following your journal. But, I forget, can you ship to US? In better weather, of course.

Thanks.

Linda


----------



## logisticsguy

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Have been avidly following your journal. But, I forget, can you ship to US? In better weather, of course.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Linda


Sadly it is just about impossible to ship betta fish between Canada and the USA. It really irks me because I have lots of friends that I cant send fish to in the USA and I cant import genetics from them either. Importing from Thailand is simple enough for us (expensive) but our only transhipper (monopoly) cant or wont (I'm not sure) handle USA shipments. Fortunately there are other Canadian breeders and we try to work together when possible.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

When I was growing African violets I bought from a Canadian hybridizer who would cross the border and ship from New York. Not sure if it was legal but it worked. ;-)


----------



## jadaBlu

What part of Canada are you in? 

I know I've ready about people on the board crossing into the USA to get Bettas from Petco and bringing them back without issue. Maybe they were really breaking the law??


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

Oops....I should mention her work took her to New York.


----------



## jadaBlu

I am curious if it's ok I could vacation in Canada this year....


----------



## themamaj

Too bad can't ship to US. I really admire the breeding work you have done and your fish are all lovely! Keep us posted how your spawns do.


----------



## BettaSplendid

logisticsguy said:


> Finally got another giant pair to spawn Yay! My biggest female kept beating the holy hell out of the giant males. She is one tough sob but Iron Mike finally submitted her but not without an epic battle. Female is in a salty bath now and was fed probiotic bloodworms right after removal. The month after spawning is rough for betta. It takes a lot out of them and immune systems are often a little down. Doing extra for them often prevents sickness or death. Adding Vitachem, aquarium salt, probiotic mix and methylene blue dips to the care has helped and fish can spawn again much shorter time frame.


Hi! I have been trying to find out more about probiotics for fish. Can you tell me what you're using?


----------



## logisticsguy

BettaSplendid said:


> Hi! I have been trying to find out more about probiotics for fish. Can you tell me what you're using?


Sure. For the most part the current probiotic fish foods available are imho junk. Probiotics are very sensitive to heat, light and air as they tend to quickly degrade during processing and shipping. This leads to manufacturers using extremely tough strains which are often not very effective and despite claims they contain billions of cells most are long dead before reaching the gut.

They best way is to use human grade probiotics that are not found in fish foods but simply add them directly to the food like frozen bloodworms or brine shrimp. I open the cap and sprinkle on the food so they are coated with the powder, if some get in the water no problem. Its important to do this about once a week so to keep the number of active cells up in the intestine. 

I use lactobacteria rhamnosis GG commonly sold as Culturelle. It is a human bacteria cultured in the 1950s very widely researched and safe. What makes it special? It survives stomach acid very well in both human and fish, surviving in the intestine. It outcompetes bad bacteria for food and then poisons them with lactic acid. The immune system also sees it as a foreign bacteria and starts to produce more t cells even though the bacteria is harmless thus jump starting the immune system of the fish. Growth is quicker as the fish can process food more easily and do so without inference from parasites or nasty bacterium linked to dropsy and internal infection which can shut down kidneys and liver. 

Doctors will often prescribe a probiotic these days along with an antibiotic because antibiotics don't discriminate and can wipe out the good gut microflora, the probiotic brings microflora back to balance creating a healthy environment for immune systems. Another good probiotic is Florastor but it has been studied less with fish. Both are available without prescription at many pharmacies. If you have only one or a few fish, you can open the cap sprinkle a little then recap and take the rest yourself. Its good for both. 

Here is a link to one of the studies.

http://www.umces.edu/imet/release/2...robiotics-help-fish-grow-faster-and-healthier


----------



## Witchipoo

Hello, I've been following your journal since I got my first giant about 3 weeks ago. I have my bettas shipped in from Thailand through Linda Olsen in Denver and I was thinking I would.ask her about bringing bettas in from Canada. It seems odd that we have such trouble getting them brought in from Canada when we share lakes and rivers! Anyway, I'm hoping to see if I can get some clarification from Linda. I would love to get a giant girl or two from you as I want to start my own giant line.
Too bad we can't use frozen semen, like dog breeders do!


----------



## BettaSplendid

Oh! Thank you so much! I had googled "probiotics for fish" 2 weeks ago and hadn't come across that. I read and read but couldn't figure out if probiotic supplements meant for people were alright for fish-not to mention how to administer it. Thank you so much.

I actually make a lot of probiotic rich fermented foods like sauerkraut and milk kefir, fermented teas and such. So I know the many benefits. I just figured there MUST be something out there for fish? But very little came up in my feeble googling attempt.

I have probiotic capsules but I wonder if brine shrimp soaked in sauerkraut juice would be even better...totally fresh. It is mostly cabbage.

Thank you also for the strains and the product recommendations. Now I can further searching...equipped with better "road maps".


----------



## Tealight03

logisticsguy said:


> Sure. For the most part the current probiotic fish foods available are imho junk. Probiotics are very sensitive to heat, light and air as they tend to quickly degrade during processing and shipping. This leads to manufacturers using extremely tough strains which are often not very effective and despite claims they contain billions of cells most are long dead before reaching the gut.
> 
> They best way is to use human grade probiotics that are not found in fish foods but simply add them directly to the food like frozen bloodworms or brine shrimp. I open the cap and sprinkle on the food so they are coated with the powder, if some get in the water no problem. Its important to do this about once a week so to keep the number of active cells up in the intestine.
> 
> I use lactobacteria rhamnosis GG commonly sold as Culturelle. It is a human bacteria cultured in the 1950s very widely researched and safe. What makes it special? It survives stomach acid very well in both human and fish, surviving in the intestine. It outcompetes bad bacteria for food and then poisons them with lactic acid. The immune system also sees it as a foreign bacteria and starts to produce more t cells even though the bacteria is harmless thus jump starting the immune system of the fish. Growth is quicker as the fish can process food more easily and do so without inference from parasites or nasty bacterium linked to dropsy and internal infection which can shut down kidneys and liver.
> 
> Doctors will often prescribe a probiotic these days along with an antibiotic because antibiotics don't discriminate and can wipe out the good gut microflora, the probiotic brings microflora back to balance creating a healthy environment for immune systems. Another good probiotic is Florastor but it has been studied less with fish. Both are available without prescription at many pharmacies. If you have only one or a few fish, you can open the cap sprinkle a little then recap and take the rest yourself. Its good for both.
> 
> Here is a link to one of the studies.
> 
> http://www.umces.edu/imet/release/2...robiotics-help-fish-grow-faster-and-healthier


Thanks for the recommendations. I'm going to start giving my bettas probiotics.


----------



## Whippet44

*4 hours and 117 pages later. 
My eyes hurt. 
I love this journal! Sorry to ask here, but how much do you think it would cost to ship up to the Eddies? I'm considering getting an amazing fish from you when the weather is warmer! So pretty!


----------



## logisticsguy

Whippet44 said:


> *4 hours and 117 pages later.
> My eyes hurt.
> I love this journal! Sorry to ask here, but how much do you think it would cost to ship up to the Eddies? I'm considering getting an amazing fish from you when the weather is warmer! So pretty!


I know its toooo long! It would be about 20 bucks. Shipping so expensive here, but I do make the odd trip to Eddie.



Tealight03 said:


> Thanks for the recommendations. I'm going to start giving my bettas probiotics.


Your welcome Tealight03. I give fry a dose of Culturelle in the second week of life.



BettaSplendid said:


> Oh! Thank you so much! I had googled "probiotics for fish" 2 weeks ago and hadn't come across that. I read and read but couldn't figure out if probiotic supplements meant for people were alright for fish-not to mention how to administer it. Thank you so much.
> 
> I actually make a lot of probiotic rich fermented foods like sauerkraut and milk kefir, fermented teas and such. So I know the many benefits. I just figured there MUST be something out there for fish? But very little came up in my feeble googling attempt.
> 
> I have probiotic capsules but I wonder if brine shrimp soaked in sauerkraut juice would be even better...totally fresh. It is mostly cabbage.
> 
> Thank you also for the strains and the product recommendations. Now I can further searching...equipped with better "road maps".


Hey the sauerkraut may work! Try small experiments with it. I know one thing for sure betta fish and human are more similar than different when it comes to nutrition. 



Witchipoo said:


> Hello, I've been following your journal since I got my first giant about 3 weeks ago. I have my bettas shipped in from Thailand through Linda Olsen in Denver and I was thinking I would.ask her about bringing bettas in from Canada. It seems odd that we have such trouble getting them brought in from Canada when we share lakes and rivers! Anyway, I'm hoping to see if I can get some clarification from Linda. I would love to get a giant girl or two from you as I want to start my own giant line.
> Too bad we can't use frozen semen, like dog breeders do!


It would be nice if a USA transhipper could hook up with Hung Pham, its so frustrating to not be able to ship fish across a border when billions of dollars of other things crosses every darn day. I would rather get more breeding stock from my American breeder friends than import from Thailand as well.


----------



## themamaj

Fascinating article on probiotics. You start giving your fry a dose at 2 weeks? Then do you continue to do that once a week through adulthood? I have juveniles to adults currently but hope to start breeding soon. I am always looking for ways to improve immunity and longevity in the fish. 

As far as breeding, you mentioned you keep your fry numbers to a minimum. Other than obvious defects or illness, how do you determine which fish to cull and at what age is it best to make that assessment?


----------



## Witchipoo

I have to go see Linda tomorrow, picking up a couple of girls I ordered. It's very difficult to find giant girls that will go well with my giant and I'm getting frustrated! This is such a nice fish, I might go ahead and use one of my large plump girls, I have 4, they're what the breeders are calling "big form", not giants or even queens, but bigger than my nor m am sized girls. 
Here is my giant, what do you think?


----------



## themamaj

He is a beauty!


----------



## logisticsguy

themamaj said:


> Fascinating article on probiotics. You start giving your fry a dose at 2 weeks? Then do you continue to do that once a week through adulthood? I have juveniles to adults currently but hope to start breeding soon. I am always looking for ways to improve immunity and longevity in the fish.
> 
> As far as breeding, you mentioned you keep your fry numbers to a minimum. Other than obvious defects or illness, how do you determine which fish to cull and at what age is it best to make that assessment?


Yes I start early with probiotics as Ive seen the faster growth with more vigor. 
I coat the freshly hatched baby brine shrimp with the probiotic which is quickly ingested by the fry. This is very similar to the results found in this study on baby zebrafish. Not sure if I posted this here or not but anyways here it is at the risk of being repetitive. Ive had similar results with betta fry as the study had with the zebrafish fry.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045572

I really don't cull much compared to most breeders. I start by removing any fry with bent spines or other genetic issues. I also sell overly large spawn extras to a couple other breeders that will grow them out. If numbers still too high I increase number of growouts. Culling is part of the game but I really do hate it so I avoid it whenever possible even growing out large spawns if I have to. I have learned to really appreciate smaller spawns.


----------



## logisticsguy

@ witchypoo Here is my giant, what do you think?

I think he is lovely! I would breed that fish without hesitation. Yes giant females are not easy to find. I suggest contacting USA breeder Kasey Clark.


----------



## Witchipoo

logisticsguy said:


> @ witchypoo Here is my giant, what do you think?
> 
> I think he is lovely! I would breed that fish without hesitation. Yes giant females are not easy to find. I suggest contacting USA breeder Kasey Clark.


Thank you! I'll do that.


----------



## themamaj

logisticsguy said:


> Yes I start early with probiotics as Ive seen the faster growth with more vigor.
> I coat the freshly hatched baby brine shrimp with the probiotic which is quickly ingested by the fry. This is very similar to the results found in this study on baby zebrafish. Not sure if I posted this here or not but anyways here it is at the risk of being repetitive. Ive had similar results with betta fry as the study had with the zebrafish fry.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045572
> 
> I really don't cull much compared to most breeders. I start by removing any fry with bent spines or other genetic issues. I also sell overly large spawn extras to a couple other breeders that will grow them out. If numbers still too high I increase number of growouts. Culling is part of the game but I really do hate it so I avoid it whenever possible even growing out large spawns if I have to. I have learned to really appreciate smaller spawns.


Thank you! That is very helpful. I would also like to avoid culling if at all possible. Is there a place online where you can find a list of good breeders here in the US? It would be nice to know if there are any close to me so if I did get overwhelmed with a spawn. Is it acceptable to use the frozen baby brine shrimp to feed the fry or is it always better to use live hatched?


----------



## themamaj

I am starting use of probiotics in my fish room today. I really appreciate the articles you linked. Would it be ok if I quoted you on my journal with what you said about the benefits of probiotics in fish with the article links? I want to encourage any helpful tips for other fish keepers to improve the healthy and immunity of their fish. I am excited to do this for my own fish as well. Thank you again for the great information!!


----------



## logisticsguy

themamaj said:


> I am starting use of probiotics in my fish room today. I really appreciate the articles you linked. Would it be ok if I quoted you on my journal with what you said about the benefits of probiotics in fish with the article links? I want to encourage any helpful tips for other fish keepers to improve the healthy and immunity of their fish. I am excited to do this for my own fish as well. Thank you again for the great information!!


Happy to help. Quote away themommaj Many of use join groups and forums to learn more about how to keep fish healthy. I find frequency of feeding probiotics is more important than the volume of cells given at any one time.


----------



## Zhylis

Hey CJ, Not sure if I linked this to you before, but if you're interested in probiotics and their various applications/effects in fish aquaculture, you might find this worth following up on: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671701/table/tab1/


----------



## themamaj

That is good article too. Thanks for posting it Zhylis. Have you read anything or do you think it would be a benefit for other aquatic life like ADF, shrimp or crayfish? Obviously, my shrimp and crays would probably be eating it as they are eating any excess food in tank. I wondered about adding it to frozen food for ADF as well.


----------



## logisticsguy

Zhylis said:


> Hey CJ, Not sure if I linked this to you before, but if you're interested in probiotics and their various applications/effects in fish aquaculture, you might find this worth following up on: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671701/table/tab1/


That is a great deal of info there Zhylis thanks for posting.  One thing for sure the variety of probiotic bacteria is stunning. 

I liked this. 

_In conclusion, all these findings highlight the action of L. rhamnosus both on the endocrine system and at the local level by inducing oocyte maturation. The significance of the results herein obtained underlined the importance of diet in the reproductive process, supporting the hypothesis that feed additives can improve fecundity. Considering that the zebrafish has been clearly established as a vertebrate model for biomedical research, these results support the potentiality of feed additives such as probiotics, frequently used in the human diet, as a new technology to improve reproduction in all vertebrates, including humans._

Giants are hard to breed and have suspect immune systems which led me to find ways to help them. So far in my experiments the probiotics have had positive impact on health, size and vitality. My feeling is the effects are more pronounced in fish than human.


----------



## logisticsguy

Here are some photos from the grow outs today.

Growout #2


----------



## Hallyx

How do you get such a variety of colors and looks among what are essentially sisters or cousins?

I am so enamored of your pineapple girls <sigh>


----------



## logisticsguy

Hallyx said:


> How do you get such a variety of colors and looks among what are essentially sisters or cousins?
> 
> I am so enamored of your pineapple girls <sigh>


I have lots of variety in the color because I have intentionally thrown, blue , red , green, yellow and purple betta in a genetic blender along with as many recessive traits as possible. When I first started out my lfs that was buying said they couldn't sell 100 red fish. They wanted variety so instead of many spawns of several different colors which would be impossible I went this way as a bit of an experiment. It produces some really goods ones and some meh fish this way. One breeder referred to my fish as mutts lol but whatever. One mans mutt is anothers hybrid. 

Glad you like the pineapple girls Hallyx. I'm jarring up a bunch of males from that tank today they are starting to get nippy. I have pretty good female giant stock now but could use another big boy from Thailand soon as an outcross. Importing giants has become so expensive here.


----------



## logisticsguy

https://youtu.be/aMBy35o18yY


----------



## logisticsguy

This is Buckwheat a young giant that is being prepped for a March spawn with a sibling female with the exact same colors.


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## BettaSplendid

Oh wow! Buckwheat is handsome! Galaxy betta.


----------



## Witchipoo

Oh how I wish we could get fish into the states from Canada! 
I talked to Linda Olsen about it. She said she's been trying to find a way.for years, no go.


----------



## Stone

logisticsguy said:


> I have lots of variety in the color because I have intentionally thrown, blue , red , green, yellow and purple betta in a genetic blender along with as many recessive traits as possible. When I first started out my lfs that was buying said they couldn't sell 100 red fish. They wanted variety so instead of many spawns of several different colors which would be impossible I went this way as a bit of an experiment. It produces some really goods ones and some meh fish this way. One breeder referred to my fish as mutts lol but whatever. One mans mutt is anothers hybrid.
> 
> Glad you like the pineapple girls Hallyx. I'm jarring up a bunch of males from that tank today they are starting to get nippy. I have pretty good female giant stock now but could use another big boy from Thailand soon as an outcross. Importing giants has become so expensive here.


That is not being a mutt it is genetic diversity, when you breed red with red over and over you are actually making a weaker fish with a far higher chance of genetic mutations, some of which could be good but usually are bad, most people have a poor grasp on how genetics work other than how to get what they want while culling 1000's of fish. this kind of breeding is why the lifespan of the average betta is 3 or less years. I personally do nto agree with the type of breeder that culls the vast majority of their fish, but that is their choice, and by doing what you are doing CJ is how people do come up with new lines of bettas, who knows what might come out of one your your spawns, I know what will ,most likely come out of a red/red spawn that has being going on for 7 generations


----------



## logisticsguy

Stone said:


> That is not being a mutt it is genetic diversity, when you breed red with red over and over you are actually making a weaker fish with a far higher chance of genetic mutations, some of which could be good but usually are bad, most people have a poor grasp on how genetics work other than how to get what they want while culling 1000's of fish. this kind of breeding is why the lifespan of the average betta is 3 or less years. I personally do nto agree with the type of breeder that culls the vast majority of their fish, but that is their choice, and by doing what you are doing CJ is how people do come up with new lines of bettas, who knows what might come out of one your your spawns, I know what will ,most likely come out of a red/red spawn that has being going on for 7 generations


Hey Stone! Thanks I enjoy not knowing exactly what the fry will turn out to be ahead of time, the surprises are fun lol. My fish never look just like the parents anymore, they turn out like 1 of the grand or great grandparents more often. I think the genetic diversity combined with probiotics and a better understanding of salinity's role in water chemistry has made a huge difference in fish health and immunity. I used to lose a lot of fish partly due to bacterial diseases and the inability to adjust to such high ph and hard water of imports. Lately its extremely rare for even a newborn fry to pass away here which makes the hobby much more fun for me and less work and worry. We had some weird but cool anomalies pop up like DTs in HM spawns and some odd color combos. The learning never stops with fish I swear. How you and your fish doing sir?


----------



## logisticsguy

Witchipoo said:


> Oh how I wish we could get fish into the states from Canada!
> I talked to Linda Olsen about it. She said she's been trying to find a way.for years, no go.


Ugg. Its just sad. I'm working to try to figure out a way. Crazy it is this hard for us to get fish across the border. I am trying to refrain from going on a rant here, it is so frustrating.



BettaSplendid said:


> Oh wow! Buckwheat is handsome! Galaxy betta.


Thanks I like him too so we just started to condition him and his girlfriend for a spawn.


----------



## Velxunai

*Life expectancy of a giant betta*

Hey what is the life expectancy of a giant betta? I got my Steve late 2014 and I'm worried he's starting to slow down.

He looks like he is getting blind in one eye and he now frequently hides behind the heater... 

He was in a 30L tank for 12 months and now he has been in a 60L since Christmas 2015.


----------



## logisticsguy

Velxunai said:


> Hey what is the life expectancy of a giant betta? I got my Steve late 2014 and I'm worried he's starting to slow down.
> 
> He looks like he is getting blind in one eye and he now frequently hides behind the heater...
> 
> He was in a 30L tank for 12 months and now he has been in a 60L since Christmas 2015.


Hey Velxunai. Well the average life span of a giant is shorter but I don't think your guys problem is age. He likely has a bacterial problem the giants are more prone to it as the immune system isn't all that great. Giantism in all animals can cause problems many similar to human giantism, however they can live a long life as well. I am not sure if you use aq salt or not, it helps me. Also vitachem, spirulina and probiotics help me as well. I had same problems with my first breeder group of giants so had to make changes as well keep water in really good shape. feel free to ask further if more questions about this.


----------



## Velxunai

logisticsguy said:


> Hey Velxunai. Well the average life span of a giant is shorter but I don't think your guys problem is age. He likely has a bacterial problem the giants are more prone to it as the immune system isn't all that great. Giantism in all animals can cause problems many similar to human giantism, however they can live a long life as well. I am not sure if you use aq salt or not, it helps me. Also vitachem, spirulina and probiotics help me as well. I had same problems with my first breeder group of giants so had to make changes as well keep water in really good shape. feel free to ask further if more questions about this.



Thank you for your response.

Unfortunately he ballooned out and I had to pts, I did use aquarium salt I've basically been following some advice from you since I got him... I'm not sure how he got sick but I'm very sad I had to send him to sleep.

I hadn't noticed that he was actually blind in both eyes.

Steve was a great fish and he will be greatly missed


----------



## logisticsguy

Velxunai said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> Unfortunately he ballooned out and I had to pts, I did use aquarium salt I've basically been following some advice from you since I got him... I'm not sure how he got sick but I'm very sad I had to send him to sleep.
> 
> I hadn't noticed that he was actually blind in both eyes.
> 
> Steve was a great fish and he will be greatly missed


Sorry about Steve. I know how much it hurts to lose these character fish. :-(

Even with great care they can get sick and have problems out of our control.


----------



## logisticsguy

CJF-3 is a juvi long fin giant.


----------



## qtbunny

I know this comment is very late, but I never knew that girls could be giants


----------



## logisticsguy

qtbunny said:


> I know this comment is very late, but I never knew that girls could be giants


Oh yeah they can be huge. Ive had a couple almost 5 inches body only but reproducing that size is difficult and requires special care and conditions not easily reproduced outside a fish farm. The bigger the female giant is, the harder they are to breed as well.


----------



## MattsBettas

Hey CJ, know I've been MIA for a long time but I just wanted to drop in and say that from what I have read (I still have lots to go, but I intend on picking up from where I left off when it comes to your journal!) everything looks absolutely amazing, as always. Still a major fan of your breeding operation and fish.


----------



## logisticsguy

Thanks Matt. I am so happy to see you here. I was getting a little worried lol but understand education is the priority as it should be. I have finally decided on the 2 male and 2 female giant betta we will be breeding going forward, my gosh its been hard decisions on this one. I hope to get photos of the final four breeder fish up soon as well as the fish that almost made the cut and will now be for sale this weekend.


----------



## logisticsguy

She looks so proud of herself for laying hundreds of eggs. Spring is here 

Niblet: Look what I did CJ! Are they beautiful? 

Me: Yes they are Niblet.


----------



## katalindia

Oh my lord she's adorable!!!


----------



## logisticsguy

This is one of a handful of DT from a giant HM spawn. Very strange to have DT pop up in betta spawn with no known DT in line for generations. This guy will be bred to a sibling DT female just to see what happens.



















Buckwheat has his nest ready for his girl M-07


----------



## Aqua Aurora

Finally finished reading through the journal!! I had some question I wanted to ask pertaining to some older posts but I forgot them =.=




logisticsguy said:


>


Had to dig up this older post, made me laugh.


----------



## Nimble

logisticsguy said:


> She looks so proud of herself for laying hundreds of eggs. Spring is here
> 
> Niblet: Look what I did CJ! Are they beautiful?
> 
> Me: Yes they are Niblet.


Does she have a boyfriend in the tank with her, or is she just laying eggs for her own happiness?


----------



## Aqua Aurora

I finally remember the other question I had for you!
In one of your posts you made a passing mention of *heat tape*. I'm guessing this is for the 1g jars the fry grow out in? Can you tell me about brand, general costs, accuracy/consistency of temperature, what you put under the heat tape and jars (like a towel or cut rub scraps) or what surface its directly set on(wood/tile/cement floor/metal racks)?
I'd thought to getting heat tape before but the cost of what I could find did not make it viable for my needs.


----------



## logisticsguy

Well hello again. Ive been getting ready to move the fish room into the garage for the summer. I must say the challenge of producing good long fin giants has been difficult. The care requirements for the project have been big. Massive water changes, grow outs must be larger, more food and more frequently. You have to deal with unstable often unpredictable genetics and outcomes. You find a super tiny fry from huge parents and are just wow...your a giant lol? Breeding out bad traits in the conversion from pk to hm. Finicky immune systems, breeding issues with huge females...gah I could go on and on. Sorry had to vent. 

So with that rant over I still enjoy the hobby but will be doing a downsizing. Going forward with giant purple yellow bi colors as the main line just a couple spawns per year. The axolotls are breeding well we have about 200 fry at various stages right now and sales have been good. My female betta tanks are calm and peaceful usually and are my favourite tanks. Female betta are awesome.

These 2 will be the main line for the near future with betta.


----------



## logisticsguy

Nimble said:


> Does she have a boyfriend in the tank with her, or is she just laying eggs for her own happiness?


Yes she has a boyfriend lol she has a life partner named Paco. 

The eggs have all hatched with some nice looking babies.


----------



## logisticsguy

Aqua Aurora said:


> I finally remember the other question I had for you!
> In one of your posts you made a passing mention of *heat tape*. I'm guessing this is for the 1g jars the fry grow out in? Can you tell me about brand, general costs, accuracy/consistency of temperature, what you put under the heat tape and jars (like a towel or cut rub scraps) or what surface its directly set on(wood/tile/cement floor/metal racks)?
> I'd thought to getting heat tape before but the cost of what I could find did not make it viable for my needs.


You should look at Flexwatt. Good brand not sure what cost would be depends on size. Many breeders use it.

http://beanfarm.com/index.php?cPath=1204_1205


----------



## Hallyx

Beautiful female as the matriarch of your line. (Love that little girlie-flare.) He's a brute. 

Glad to see you're up to that interesting list of challenges. Good luck.


----------



## themamaj

Really lovely females!


----------



## logisticsguy

Baby giant Purple Gas (bi color purple/yellow) halfmoons F2. Yay we have about 130 fry hatched and eating well. Dad was fantastic father who is now in therapy, he was not a happy camper being removed. Thanks Hal good to see you! Thanks themammaj females rock and are more important to the male in a line imho. Next up is purple/green giant pair.


----------



## Fenghuang

Omg those teeny babies are adorable!!! My pair just spawned successfully today so this makes me so excited haha.

And that female you posted above is nice. I have said this many times, but you breed some great girls.


----------



## sabrinah

I read this thing in two days. My eyes hurt. 

I would kill for one of your bettas! They're so beautiful! I loved your discussions on aq salt. I'm definitely interested in putting it back in my tanks (I had stopped because I read so much saying it shouldn't be there) but one tank has pygmy cories, and I've heard corydoras don't handle any amount of salt well. Probiotics are definitely in the future of my fish. I have a betta that's been battling dropsy-like symptoms for a month (clearly it's not dropsy or he would be dead by now) and I'm hoping the probiotics will help.


----------



## logisticsguy

sabrinah said:


> I read this thing in two days. My eyes hurt.
> 
> I would kill for one of your bettas! They're so beautiful! I loved your discussions on aq salt. I'm definitely interested in putting it back in my tanks (I had stopped because I read so much saying it shouldn't be there) but one tank has pygmy cories, and I've heard corydoras don't handle any amount of salt well. Probiotics are definitely in the future of my fish. I have a betta that's been battling dropsy-like symptoms for a month (clearly it's not dropsy or he would be dead by now) and I'm hoping the probiotics will help.


Dear lord I pity anyone that reads the whole thing! Thank you

I keep panda cory and apple snails in my growout and sorority tanks. So far they remain unaffected by the preventive level of salt and they been in there for years. Just my experience, if I had no betta just snails and cory I would likely not add any aq salt but so far no harm they never had any issues yet.

Just want to let you know antbiotic and probiotic at same time not good as they can counter act each other. if your done kanaplex dose you can start probiotic right away to help gut microflora come back to normal.


----------



## sabrinah

I'll definitely try adding aq salt in when I do my water change this weekend then and possibly pick up some probiotics for when he's done with his baths


----------



## Witchipoo

Heh heh. I read this whole journal too. 
I have been attempting to spawn my giant pair with no luck. My male is about 7 months now and he acts like an adolescent boy that doesn't want girl cooties in his treehouse!
My girl is just 5 months or so. Thought maybe he would go for a more mature girl, not s giant, but not tiny. He killed her!
I don't get it. At what age do you start breeding your giants? Ever had a male act like this?
His spawn tank is perfect, lots of tannins, good nutritious food and plenty of it, bubble nest under the cup. 
Both girls I offered him pretty, well fed and eggy.
Ugh!


----------



## logisticsguy

Witchipoo said:


> Heh heh. I read this whole journal too.
> I have been attempting to spawn my giant pair with no luck. My male is about 7 months now and he acts like an adolescent boy that doesn't want girl cooties in his treehouse!
> My girl is just 5 months or so. Thought maybe he would go for a more mature girl, not s giant, but not tiny. He killed her!
> I don't get it. At what age do you start breeding your giants? Ever had a male act like this?
> His spawn tank is perfect, lots of tannins, good nutritious food and plenty of it, bubble nest under the cup.
> Both girls I offered him pretty, well fed and eggy.
> Ugh!


Sorry to hear that Witchipoo. yes Ive seen that myself. Even though you do everything right the male pulls an idiot move and kills female. I breed them anywhere from 4-12 months old. I try to provide a hide for the female but does not always work either. Very frustrating. I would consider getting another male. Not all appear cut out for fatherhood some eat eggs other can beat females yet wont breed. Keep trying breeding them is not easy. Wish I had better answers.


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## Witchipoo

Thanx for the encouragement. At least I know I'm not doing something wrong. 
I think I might try him with my giant girl one more time. He's so stunningly beautiful I hate to give up on this project. If he won't i have a pair of PK that each hsd one giant parent. Maybe I'll start there and start hunting for another giant male. Damn his eyes!
Your journal has been an invaluable source of info. Thank you.


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## ThatFishThough

Off topic, Witchi, but I'm again contemplation telling my sorority. Everything's going well, but I fear that if I want a bird, I have to get rid of some tanks, which means the sorority will be sold and the 20 divided. I just gotta talk to my parents. ;-; The struggle is real!


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## logisticsguy

Next week a group of my betta are of the the IBC betta show. It should be a great show. The baby betta are doing well and growing fast. today a new axolotl habitat was set up. 240 gallons! They love it and it easily houses all 10 adults. They look tiny in it. Males on one side, girls on the other. They can smell the other sex on the other side so its funny to watch a couple females tease the boys who tend to line up just on the other side. Very interesting behaviour today.


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## logisticsguy

My fish babies made it back from the IBC District 6 Show all safe and sound. Thank you Morgan for taking such good care of them. They are flaring away like crazy when they got unpacked. Now we start breeding again.


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## BettaSplendid

Congratulations on the show! Glad all bettas made it there and back again, safely.

And that axolotl setup! WOW. I would.like to make a betta habitat like that, wide and shallow with lots to explore...


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## logisticsguy

BettaSplendid said:


> Congratulations on the show! Glad all bettas made it there and back again, safely.
> 
> And that axolotl setup! WOW. I would.like to make a betta habitat like that, wide and shallow with lots to explore...




Thanks BettaSplendid! Yes I want to set up a betta habitat similar to the axolotl with the large footprint. It is working well with the axolotl breeding like crazy. The betta are also in breed mode, meeting new friends at the show seems to have set them off lol the boys all built nests overnight and the girls are getting breed stripes quickly so this weekend 5 spawn tubs are getting set up in the garage. :smile2:


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## BettaSplendid

Wow, five! I am looking forward to the pictures of who gets paired with who.


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## logisticsguy

Trying something out...may work maybe not lol


https://goo.gl/photos/SWQ57UG46KnhQVGk8


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## themamaj

Such beautiful fish!


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## BettaSplendid

Very pretty! I want to see more of that lavenderish one with the blue tail on the far left. All of them are gorgeous.


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## logisticsguy

Spawn 43 growing up fast.


https://goo.gl/photos/wRZ9FFLnVVHnvspP8


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## BettaSplendid

Wow! Gorgeous! All those colors..! I stared wide-eyed.


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## logisticsguy

I tried making a couple videos.

https://goo.gl/photos/sixTdaRCSaWMFRdQ7

Giant longfin for sale 5.3 cm

https://goo.gl/photos/yi4Um9J6ctG7Xj6o9


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## logisticsguy

This is B-01 Pineapple bi color Longfin giant geno 16 weeks.


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## logisticsguy

An animation of some of the betta fish here.

https://goo.gl/photos/fPiehCvwY7cY9eE76


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## BettaSplendid

logisticsguy said:


> This is B-01 Pineapple bi color Longfin giant geno 16 weeks.



:surprise:


No way could I resist him! Good thing you do not ship to US, I would be doomed. Although it would be good for you! I hope he passes on the tail spots to his spawn, it is absolutely gorgeous, irristable. If I saw him locally I would buy him without hesitation and worry about where to put tank number 9 later.

Eta, the videos worked. Very nice! 

I have never seen a giant betta other than a plakat for sale locally. I guess that is why I am so fascinated with yours, well, plus the colors are amazing. I totally go for spots on the fins. How are the temperaments of your giants? Are they like regular sized betta or calmer? Just curious. Especially wondering about the females.


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## Hallyx

Love those pineapple giants. 

I'm only a 500mile round-trip from you. But I'd probably be arrested at the border -- the way Homeland Security is these days.


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## MysticSky22301

Oh my! I saw a yellow with blue fins o.o I wish I could have it!


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## logisticsguy

Hello my friends. I have not posted in a long time. I had some major health problems and spent 3 weeks in critical condition with some difficult surgeries. Its been a rough road back. Thankfully a fish friend came to my aid and saved my fish. I will be doing some spawns again when I get fully healthy. We do have some nice longfin HM with good giant genes ready to go.


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## logisticsguy

An updated article I wrote about the use of aquarium salt was published at the IBC website. Also a question how do I post a video here at bettafish.com I tried but it failed.

Aquarium Salt, The Healthy Preventative v 2.0 ? International Betta Congress


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## bu7682

logisticsguy said:


> Hello my friends. I have not posted in a long time. I had some major health problems and spent 3 weeks in critical condition with some difficult surgeries. Its been a rough road back. Thankfully a fish friend came to my aid and saved my fish. I will be doing some spawns again when I get fully healthy. We do have some nice longfin HM with good giant genes ready to go.



 Hi logisticsguy.

I am so sorry you are going through such a difficult time. I love reading your journal and seeing the pictures of your fish and axolotls. I still remember Cookie, one of your first giant girls. I must confess - she was my favorite. Your aqua adventures, experience, posts and journal are full of interesting & useful information, positive attitude, even jokes and helpful tips. 

I really hope you will get better soon and continue to share your wonderful experience and knowledge with us.


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## MysticSky22301

Your post has me wondering what happened, but I won't pry. You need to get better and focus on getting your life back in order


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## Fenghuang

Sorry to hear about your troubles, LG. I hope you have a smooth recovery and get back up on your feet soon!


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## BettaSplendid

Thank God for that friend! Wow! The male you picked out is gorgeous. Keeping you in my prayers. 

Are you uploading to youtube? I am not good at explaining things but could try.


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## logisticsguy

Hello. Finally back here. Its been a rough go. I was on a surgery wait list for a long time but finally got it done and back on my feet. I hope to resume breeding in about a week. Happy to be alive. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.


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## ryry2012

Welcome back! I'm glad finally the surgery was done. Hope you are recovering fast and well.


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## logisticsguy

So after 16 months we are back to breeding giant betta. The tanks are set up again but its a smaller fish farm than before. The first fry are hatched and away we go. Its good to feel good again. Big hugs to my friends thanks for the support!


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