# How much is "excessive" agression during spawning?



## sigurd (Jun 5, 2017)

Hello,

I'm wondering when to abort breeding and remove the female (or male, for that matter) due to excessive aggression. I've read up on everything I can find on breeding, but could not find anything specifically regarding this.

"Breeding bettas is not for the faint of heart" "you can expect the female or male to be injured" "separate the pair if the male is trying to kill the female" - it's all sort of vague, especially since the male isn't necessarily trying to kill the female but might inadvertantly do it anyways.

So I'm genuinely wondering, what is too much aggression, or perhaps somewhat easier to quantify: How much damage / injuries is too much?

For the second time now I removed a badly dinged female from breeding, and in both cases they squirted eggs all over my net in the process. So I'm wondering if I should just leave them in no matter how many fins, scales and even eyes are missing or injured, like for example a thai breeder would.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

There is no specific creteria on this. And only the breeder can judge since he/she could see the pair. 

We can only advise to abort if:
1. Female is constantly resting either on surface or floor and not reacting to male when he approaches.
2. When female seems to be in pain or having trouble swimming
3. When the breeder (you) feel the female has had enough beating.

Shredded fins and a few missing scales is normal during breeding. Healthy females usually recover quickly.

On most occasions, as long as the famale isn't stressed, she will eventually spawn - even after she had lost most of her fins. However, if too badly beaten, she may not recover and die soon after. 

Sometimes the female looks physically fine but dies. IME, the male attacked her lower mid section which proves fatal (I've had males kill females within 30 minutes). If you come across such males, never use floating plants or floating dry leaves - where female might rest or hide because this will leave the female's lower midsection open.

You must learn through experience when to abort - putting the female's life as a priority.


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## sigurd (Jun 5, 2017)

Thank you 

#1, #2, and consequently, #3 were all true in these cases. It's good to know my instincts weren't completely off, although in the future I'll be even quicker if I recognize such behaviour.

Could you even predict this happening just from the females personality? I briefly had my 3 females housed together, and these two were submissive and constantly harassed by the third female... which I by the way have successfully mated twice. This is a small sample size, of course. But if this is the case, a possible "cruel" conclusion could be: submissive females should just be culled?
Useless for breeding (unable to).
Useless for community tanks (stress stripes, tattered fins, reclusive behaviour, and in time a probable death by injury).
Sub-par for solo tanks (will very rarely be as stunning as the males).


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Simply because one female is dominant, doesn't mean the remaining two females would be unsuitable for breeding or that they would be unable to live in a community tank. If by community, you mean a tank that contains a single betta alongside other species of fish. I'm sure if removed from the constant harassment of the dominant female, their colour and demeanor would greatly improve. 

What you describe is why it is strongly recommended against keeping females in groups of less than four or five. Many females are not suited to living in a sorority environment. This does not mean they should be culled.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

+1:LBF

Sororities will often workout a pecking order. The alpha may be over aggressive and constantly bully others around her. If you remove the alpha, others will either live in peace, establish a new pevking order, or both.

More docile females from sororities can be bred. They might need a few days in isolation to develop better self esteem and aggression. And after they've been bred, they might become more aggressive (than previously) when returned to sorority.


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