# Yahooanswers sucks, so... velcro dog?



## Sena Hansler

Okay I wanna ask some real down to earth non-screaming, non-judgemental or assuming arses. :lol: Putting it nicely for Y.A :roll:

Gurgi: 2 year old pomeranian, westland terrier, shitzu cross. His first home obviously did not potty train him very well... At night if he isn't in the same room with us he'll poop upstairs :roll: I got training pads... Not that... I know what to do...  Tips on that?

Anxiety: I looked it up, and it says treats and toys. He is scared of toys and won't eat treats :roll:

His symptoms: 

- *pacing* back and forth between 1-2 hours (the most I've let him). Today I put him on the leash when Dean left and after a while took him off the leash - no pacing =D
- *peeing and pooping* everywhere. On cushions, squatted on the floor, on the carpet (I cleaned this freaking carpet so many times and now this?!)
- *whining or barking* - which is rare. It's usually just pacing.
- He needs to be crated... And he whines and sulks in the crate. Yesterdya I sat in the house while he was in the crate. After a while he didn't care.
- *VELCRO DOG!!!* I can't get him off me! D: I can go pee without a dog there ya know  But obviously not -facepalm-

So..... anyone got tips? How to unvelcro Velcro Dog? :lol: The whining doesn't happen much, but I would like to break this anxiety. Since it is not as bad as my dad's dog (who is SEVERE to a point she hurts herself)... 

And a sad side note... If it cannot be dealt with, since I told my landlord the dog doesn't bark (except with people at the door which is easy to train him out of.), he was supposedly house trained, and crate trained. He escaped the crate (problem fixed) and made it so I may have to contact the previous people who rescued him because we cannot keep him if this keeps up!! I personally became more stressed around my dad's dog because it became MY responsibilty MY problem MY dog  And I don't want that feeling!


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## 1077

Sena Hansler said:


> Okay I wanna ask some real down to earth non-screaming, non-judgemental or assuming arses. :lol: Putting it nicely for Y.A :roll:
> 
> Gurgi: 2 year old pomeranian, westland terrier, shitzu cross. His first home obviously did not potty train him very well... At night if he isn't in the same room with us he'll poop upstairs :roll: I got training pads... Not that... I know what to do...  Tips on that?
> 
> Anxiety: I looked it up, and it says treats and toys. He is scared of toys and won't eat treats :roll:
> 
> His symptoms:
> 
> - *pacing* back and forth between 1-2 hours (the most I've let him). Today I put him on the leash when Dean left and after a while took him off the leash - no pacing =D
> - *peeing and pooping* everywhere. On cushions, squatted on the floor, on the carpet (I cleaned this freaking carpet so many times and now this?!)
> - *whining or barking* - which is rare. It's usually just pacing.
> - He needs to be crated... And he whines and sulks in the crate. Yesterdya I sat in the house while he was in the crate. After a while he didn't care.
> - *VELCRO DOG!!!* I can't get him off me! D: I can go pee without a dog there ya know  But obviously not -facepalm-
> 
> So..... anyone got tips? How to unvelcro Velcro Dog? :lol: The whining doesn't happen much, but I would like to break this anxiety. Since it is not as bad as my dad's dog (who is SEVERE to a point she hurts herself)...
> 
> And a sad side note... If it cannot be dealt with, since I told my landlord the dog doesn't bark (except with people at the door which is easy to train him out of.), he was supposedly house trained, and crate trained. He escaped the crate (problem fixed) and made it so I may have to contact the previous people who rescued him because we cannot keep him if this keeps up!! I personally became more stressed around my dad's dog because it became MY responsibilty MY problem MY dog  And I don't want that feeling!


Potty training, like other types of training takes considerble effort.
Unlike your dad's dog, THIS dog,, you have chosen to bring home, IS your responsibility,your dog,your problem. If you don't want the responsibility....
How long is the dog crated during the day? how many trips outside each day to encourage the animal to poop/pee outdooors?
How long have you had the dog? 
Who work's with the dog?
Dog's I have potty trained were much younger than two year's old and I confined the animal to one room during the day while I was at work with newspaper covering the entire room's floor.
Each day,I let the dog out first thing of a morning before leaving for work to do it's buisness and i did not bring him/her in until they had pooped/peed/
When I came home from work, I took the dog out again, and then replaced the newspaper with new and each day,,I simply reduced the amount of newspaper and the dog eventually got to the point where it would only squat over newspaper which ultimately was reduced to one small area, or outdoors.
Anxiety sometimes can be helped by recording your voices on answering machine, and then calling a couple times a day or more, and dog will here your voices when answering machine play's message you have left.


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## Sena Hansler

.... I know he is my responsibility.  I never ever said he wasn't. I don't want him to be my PROBLEM that is the thing! Minor problems like fear, and all is alright those are easy to deal with. most anxiety dogs I've dealt with NEVER get better and you end up having to cage them all the time, drug them, or rehome them :-(
I want a dog, NOT a problem. I don't want to hate coming home knowing my landlord would FLIP if he knew the dog peed everywhere. He let us have a dog, because he trusted us.

The dog is only ever crated an hour a day if both of us work. He USED to be crated 12-24 hours in his abusive home (which is SO stupid to do to the poor dog). He's no longer scared of the crate with us luckily. If anything, max is 2 hours.

He is usually outside most of the day, with or without me (tied with a 15 foot leash or on walks with me, or visiting his bud Buddy in a fenced yard.) Or, to break it up, he goes outside every couple/few hours.

He's been with me since April 29.

I'd have to newspaper the WALLS if he were confined in the room :lol: the only room I could have him in, it gets really hot in there :-( and humid, and then it reeks to high heavens with him in there - we tried it. Then we tried keeping the door open, with a baby gate aaaand the westland terrier in him hopped over and made a mess of the house :roll:

also I do not have an answering machine... I do not have a house phone.


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## BeckyFish97

He understands what his food is now, so when he goes to the toilet on the training mat, make sure you have some food ready to give to him, and lots of attention, tickle him in "that spot" (all dogs have it  ) tell him he's a good boy, once he has this idea, start to move the mat slowly towards the door, when you get it to the door he has learned that is the place to go, then introduce him to the idea of peeing/pooping outside. For the pacing: everytime he starts to pace, do something to take his mind off of the fact that he is not happy about something (like the lead thing)
For the peeing everywhere, tell him NO as soon as he does it, in a calm, but clearly unimpressed voice.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/dogs/1203869-need-advice-re-housebreaking-adult-dog.html
This link may help.
For the velcro dog, Show him around the bathroom, next: this will sound crazy, but next time you go to the toilet leave the door open.Don't let him in with you, make sure he can see you, but not come in with you. Gradually close the door everytime you go in the bathroom.If he knows it is safe, and that nothing can happen to you, he will understand.He needs to learn the difference between, together time, and my time, it will come to him eventually, but it will take time!!!


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## Sena Hansler

thanks Becky :lol: I actually did catch him one time peeing in the house. The first thing I said was "BAD!" and he sulked off lol. I got the leash brought him back upstairs and "time out" happened right next to the pee spot. He wouldn't move until I said he could.

What about the anxiety?


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## BeckyFish97

The anxiety...Seperation, or just anxiety even when you're there?


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## Sena Hansler

separation anxiety...

well...

When we both are out of the house together or spearate times, he HAS to be crated because he poops/pees everywhere.

When I leave, he paces, 30 minutes to 1 hour with my bf there.
When my bf leaves he whines, paces for 1-2 hours... SO ANYONE leaves he panics :roll: That's why today I broke his pacing thing by leashing him to me.


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## sparkyjoe

Oh, I do not envy you this situation and I would NEVER judge because I had to rehome a dog due to Separation Anxiety.

In my situation I got a 14 month old Standard Poodle from her breeder. I was told she was housebroken, and used to being kenneled when the breeder went to work all day. In reality the poor girl was not overly housebroken, and she threw a fit whenever I stepped out of the house (barking, howling, poo & pee, etc.) she also gave me that "OMG I thought you had left me here all alone FOREVER!!" greeting when I got home.

I'm currently on medical leave dealing with a health situation, so she was not left for long, and since I'm sick (and live alone) it was making my health worse to have to come home to a nasty mess to clean up.

Unfortunately after speaking to several trainers about my situation I had to make the shattering choice to return her to the breeder's care. She was placed with an elderly man who already has another dog and she's doing great.

Happily, not all situations have to end like this, and I can't really diagnose true SA, but some of the things that were recommended to me are:

- Conditioning - Very, very slowly increase the amount of time the dog is left alone. If you can only step out for 5 seconds before the dog gets anxious, then leave for 4 seconds are return. Basically ignore the dog when you return. Never return when the dog is barking and throwing a fit.

- Exercise - Try to drain the dog's energy before you have to leave. Westies can be little bundles of action, as can Poms. A really, really tired dog is less likely to have the energy to throw much of a fit for long. 

Leave Routine - I got mixed input about whether or not I should use a routine when I leave such as saying a particular phrase. In my opinion if I said "I'll be home soon" and then left and *came back* then the dog starts to learn that pattern and won't be as anxious. Watch your routine when you leave. If it's SA you'll generally see the dog start to get anxious when it see's the subtle signs that you are even thinking about leaving. 

- Thundershirt - I did get a somewhat positive reaction to the Thundershirt.

- Herbals - Look into the "calming" herbs like Valarian and Chamomile. 

- Prescription Drugs - Things like Prozac *can* be helpful, but they can take weeks to start showing any effect. Talk to your vet and try to get started the dog started on them soon.

- Kongs and "special treats" - Stuff a Kong with peanut butter, or even canned dog food, maybe even layer it with other treats, and then pop it in the freezer. Only use these special treats when you leave the house.

There may be more but the nurse is on her way to my room and I don't want to loose what I've typed.


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## Sena Hansler

Only problem with drugging is it is expensive here, and the dog can only use it for 90 days until it becomes dangerous to their health  we looked it up for my dad's dog.
And the little poopr ignores peanut butter and treats and toys x.x (geesh he makes it hard). Basically his "mental exercise" is people which is bad because that is what caused the SA


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## CaseyA

Sena, I am a huge fan of Pat Miller's dog training techniques. Her website is at http://www.peaceablepaws.com. She has an article about separation anxiety at http://www.peaceablepaws.com/articl...82177356&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&type=Pat that might help. She also has a blog that might help.

When you clean the carpets do you use a scent neutralizer? Soap won't remove the scent of urine and feces from the carpet and padding, and the dog will return to that spot over and over because his scent is there. I used a product called Nature's Miracle while housebreaking my dog for that very purpose.

It sounds like you have to start potty training from the very beginning. It CAN be done and it CAN be successful. You do the same thing you'd do with a pup. Crating and keeping the dog within arms' reach is absolutely necessary, as is positive reinforcement when the dog goes outside. This is a good summary. http://www.peaceablepaws.com/articl...82179641&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&type=Pat

Good luck! Since your dog's behavior has been reinforced (even unintentionally) for so long it's going to take time and commitment from everyone in the house to help him learn new behaviors. It can be done, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


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## sparkyjoe

Have you tried leaving a radio or tv on for him?

As for the drugs, that's why I prefer herbals, they are usually cheaper, don't require a script, and their use can be longer without negative health impacts.

Really exhausting the little rugger can help. 

Have you figured out whether the dog likes ANY treats? Sometimes you even have to try "human" foods like cold cuts or pieces of real meat. Hopefully you can find that special treat that will work. 

Yeah, it's tough. I think my dog had been sooo used to being surrounded by the breeder's other dogs and had that "crutch" when the breeder wasn't around she was never really alone.

Patience, patience, patience.


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## Enkil

They make "sweaters" for anxiety dogs. They work well. They advertise them for dogs that have anxiety when it comes to things like storms, but they work well for any kind of anxiety.

For separation anxiety:
Before your dog is left alone, make sure to tire him out! Either with a brisk walk, jog, or playing a game with him such as fetch.


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## CaseyA

Sena Hansler said:


> Only problem with drugging is it is expensive here, and the dog can only use it for 90 days until it becomes dangerous to their health  we looked it up for my dad's dog.
> And the little poopr ignores peanut butter and treats and toys x.x (geesh he makes it hard). Basically his "mental exercise" is people which is bad because that is what caused the SA


Don't limit yourself to "dog" treats. Try string cheese, small pieces of cooked hamburger or other meat, a fingertip of yogurt, anything that your dog will stop what he's doing and give you the "please????" look! Sometimes you have to experiment to find that high-value treat.

I don't usually hawk books but this one was a HUGE help for us in training our dog. If you're serious about retraining the dog I'd highly recommend it. She writes a chapter on separation anxiety and potty training older dogs, and other common dog problems.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Pos...1845/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337192987&sr=8-1


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## Enkil

For treats...

With it being hot, something you might try is freezing chicken broth into ice cubes! Most dogs just can't say no to chicken broth. Freezing it in an ice cube tray gives them a nice tasty treat that helps cool them off. I do this for my puppy. I give him one or two in his bowl. This keeps you from having a mess on the floor.


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## Sena Hansler

Only problem with human food, is once he has some he WON'T eat his own food :roll: he's sucha pain in my bum :lol: He got into the garbage yesterday after the little magician found a fault in the crate (fixed THAT) and ate the garbage :roll: so now he won't eat x.x

Although the chicken broth ice cubes may work... 

Enkil: sweaters?? o.o never heard of them. It's funny how the dog who was beat so badly in his old home (even his one leg is distorted funny) NEEDS to be around the very creatures that beat him :roll:


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## Enkil

Dogs have been bred over centuries to be like that. They are eternally loyal creatures. We made them to be by our sides as our constant companions and protectors.

Vest for anxiety: http://www.thundershirt.com/?gclid=CKezhp3IhbACFQ-Ahwod93r7mw

You can also type in "dog anxiety vest" into google and find more.


Also, you can use aromatherapy to help with anxiety.
http://www.dog-first-aid-101.com/aromatherapy-for-your-dog.html

I really like this one:
http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/2006/06/calming_dog_aromatherapy.php
http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/2006/07/aromatherapy_for_dogs.php
I prefer lavender as I really like the scent myself. This scent has worked for me in the past.


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## Sena Hansler

hmmm thanks 

we had tried chamomile tea for my dad's dog but since she is severe (she broke her teeth on the doorknob, destroyed a kennel, a crate, attacks the littler dog, pees and poops everywhere, howls, barks, whines, to a point she can no longer BARK she is so hoarse  ) it never worked. Maybe it might for Gurgi!


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## Enkil

I never did tea. I used the essential oils on the skin, massaging them in. Also used as a spritzer on bedding.
The good thing with using it is that you can also find air fresheners that give off the scents as well. Or even candles.

Could try doing a combination of these things. Maybe some aroma therapy and vigorous exercise.


With the chicken broth ice cubes...
I don't give Fenris many of these or too often. The last couple of days it has been hot. We don't have AC and he's black brindle. So I've been giving him 1-2 as a nice cool treat. He really appreciates them and it's better for dogs than other things (ice cream).
Yogurt/frozen yogurt would work as well and wouldn't be bad for him in small amounts.


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## CaseyA

Have you tried Rescue Remedy in conjunction with your training program? I have a friend who rescues, rehabilitates and finds new homes for dogs and she swears by it.


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## sparkyjoe

Yes, I wanted to mention that I heard good things about this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Leave-Step---...2733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337196312&sr=8-1

OH! And "confidence building" through positive training. Particularly the "sit-stay" and "down-stay". The training builds the human/animal bond as well as helping the dog learn that he can be ok when not next to your side.


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## Sena Hansler

I have to avoid air fresheners because of my guinea piggie :3
So I'd have to find just the essence, herb, etc which isn't too hard around here.

Rescue Remedy? -looking that up- 

Yeah I've been getting him to sit before he eats (not that he will eat today :roll and staying at the top of the stairs when I go down them.


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## BeckyFish97

For the seperation anxietyut him in a room, tell him to sit, and stay (if he knows those commands) and then shut the door.Wait 10 seconds, open the door, if he peed, don't shout, clean it up and try again.(sounds crazy I know)
Once he does this for 10 seconds without peeing, then try 20 seconds, then 30 and so on, work on it daily until you can leave him for as long as you need to.This way he learns that you're always coming back!
For the general anxiety:When he gets wound up, try and see if there is anything in the room he is trying to avoid, or looking at constantly.What time does he do it at?Random times?or one time on certain days, or every day at the same time?Something will be triggering it, if he is from an abusive home, then it is likely it is an everyday object that he is scared of, or something that he sees as a signal that something bad is going to happen!


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## Sena Hansler

the general anxiety he is just terrified of toys. That and he KNOWS he did something bad so he'll cower :roll: or slink away.


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## sparkyjoe

Sena Hansler said:


> Only problem with human food, is once he has some he WON'T eat his own food :roll: he's sucha pain in my bum :lol: He got into the garbage yesterday after the little magician found a fault in the crate (fixed THAT) and ate the garbage :roll: so now he won't eat x.x
> 
> Although the chicken broth ice cubes may work...
> 
> Enkil: sweaters?? o.o never heard of them. It's funny how the dog who was beat so badly in his old home (even his one leg is distorted funny) NEEDS to be around the very creatures that beat him :roll:


OK, believe me when I say that a dog will NEVER starve itself to death when food is available. Well, I'm not one for absolutes, so maybe I'm 99.9% sure of this. You just have to be willing to out stubborn the dog. Do your best to stick to a strict feeding schedule; unless there is a medical reason you never leave food in the bowl all day long. Put it down for 10-15 minutes then PICK IT UP AND PUT IT AWAY. Just like our hearty betta fish a healthy dog will not starve to death over a few days of not eating. Hopefully once the dog learns that food is available only for short times then it will eat. Don't over feed the treat foods and fill the dog up, but don't cave! Think of it this way... once a dog learns that you will *upgrade* their food options if they are pathetic enough, or can just wait long enough, then they win that battle.


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## Sena Hansler

pfft he won't eat the treats anyways :lol: I have told everyone to NEVER EVER GIVE MY DOG PEOPLE FOOD. Last time that happened he wouldn't eat for a few days -facepalm- so I made that rule clear haha. But since he got into the garbage I guess THAT was his dinner :roll: I do take away the food. he doesn't eat it, it goes away.


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## sparkyjoe

Exactly. This is not directed at you, just a personal thing, but I've grown to dislike to use the term "people food" because when you're talking whole foods (not processed, chemical filled junk), then food is just food. Not that long ago, at least in the US, dog kibble didn't exist, or was not used much because folks just fed their pets scraps. These scraps were just the left over meats, veggies, grains, and things like soup bones from the kitchen.

Don't be afraid to experiment with high value treats, heck maybe even try the smelly junk like Bacon Bits to see if your dog will take them. It's all about careful starts and patience.


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## BeckyFish97

sparkyjoe said:


> OK, believe me when I say that a dog will NEVER starve itself to death when food is available. Well, I'm not one for absolutes, so maybe I'm 99.9% sure of this. You just have to be willing to out stubborn the dog. Do your best to stick to a strict feeding schedule; unless there is a medical reason you never leave food in the bowl all day long. Put it down for 10-15 minutes then PICK IT UP AND PUT IT AWAY. Just like our hearty betta fish a healthy dog will not starve to death over a few days of not eating. Hopefully once the dog learns that food is available only for short times then it will eat. Don't over feed the treat foods and fill the dog up, but don't cave! Think of it this way... once a dog learns that you will *upgrade* their food options if they are pathetic enough, or can just wait long enough, then they win that battle.


 
This one !ALWAYS! works!!!


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## Sena Hansler

I got him the wheat, corn and by-product free treats because well....healthy. But noooo :roll: I got him bones, but nooo... I got him those "bad for them because they are smoked and coated" bones, and he loved it xD


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## LittleBettaFish

With correct training the crate is meant to be a happy place. Ours sits in the kitchen and our two females still go in and sleep in there without any prompting from us. It's a shame that it seems like the crate was made a bad place by his previous owners as it can be such a great training tool.

Both our female GSs were crate-trained as puppies and it made a world of difference in how quickly they were to housebreak. As most dogs will not soil where they sleep, they will _have_ to let you know when they need to go out to the toilet. However, this will not work if he was allowed to soil in a crate at his old home as is the case with pet store puppies, they quickly lose the natural instinct to keep the 'den' and themselves clean. 

Does he soil in the crate? If not, I'd read up on how to correctly crate train (particularly with anxious dogs) and start from scratch. If he gets anxious in the crate, ignore it. If you respond to his anxiety by taking him out and making as fuss he will soon learn that by whining and carrying on he gets what he wants. If you scold him for being scared it will only reinforce the idea that the crate is not a nice place to be.

My dad's dog had severe separation anxiety as in he would climb over the back fence and escape until my dad put up electric fencing. He is slowly getting better as he is allowed to be in with us if he is calm, but as soon as he starts getting frantic or trying to climb all over us he is taken out into the laundry and left there until he settles. Eventually he learned that if he is quiet and doesn't get clingy he can spend time with us in the house as a reward.

I believe with overly anxious dogs the NILF system (Nothing In Life Is Free) is good because it clearly defines the rules which fearful dogs find comforting. I would google NILF and see if you could apply it to your current situation.

I would also teach the 'look' command. We do it by holding food in front of the dog and then bringing it up to our face and saying the word 'look' while we hold the food there for a few seconds. Eventually you just need to say 'look' and our dogs will sit in front of you (well our male sometimes won't the turd) and focus their attention on you. This is a great method for focusing dogs and making them look to _you _for guidance and leadership.


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## Sena Hansler

yyyeeeaaahhhh big pee puddle, and I gave him water because it IS hot outside (I may never do this again x.x) and he pooped and peed in it :/ He doesn't have WALKING space, but he has turning around and getting comfy, space.

I've made him go in the crate while I am home, so he lays there and can see me.


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## LittleBettaFish

So is he going to the toilet in his crate? If so that's going to be extremely hard to stop. As soon as you notice him getting restless, dropping his nose to sniff around or look like he is thinking of going I would put him outside and leave him there until he has gone. 

Then make the biggest fuss you can over him that he has gone in the right spot. Tons and tons of praise so that he will see that eliminating outside is the right thing to do. 

We use 'go to toilet' with our dogs to see if they need to go outside (they will all run to the door and sit there if they do) and then tell them to 'do wee' once they are outside. It doesn't take them too long to figure out what you are asking if you get the timing right and give a reward always for good behaviour.

If he is eliminating in the house you need to watch him like a hawk. Any actions that even hint that he is thinking of using that area as the potty means it's time to go outside. 

The dog has to learn it does not get to come inside until it has gone to the toilet. Even if this takes an hour, he has to stay out there until he is done.


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## Sena Hansler

Yeah since we have upstairs/downstairs I tend to lock "us" upstairs because I don't want him sulking away to do his business downstairs x.x


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## Olympia

Good advice given.
I wouldn't knock those special sweaters. It's been proven that they are calming, they squeeze down on a dogs chest which produces a calming effect, it's like a hug.
Temple Grandin is a famous autistic person who did a lot of research on it for people, she has bouts of anxiety/stress, and she says being squeezed by it helps her a lot. It also calms down most animals, it gives a feeling of security.
Also, for the treats thing, since this dog is motivated by you, have you tried just turning eating treats into a game? My boxer hated dog treats, until I praised her everytime she ate one, now she sees the treat as a reward.


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## Sena Hansler

I've been working on it xDD


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## Olympia

How about just plain chicken as a treat? Homemade soft dog treats? Have you tried fish flavored treats? My dogs go crazy for fish. think just choosing one human food for him, he'll catch on eventually. Dogs like plain chicken but they shouldn't starve themselves for it. xD


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## Sena Hansler

lol maybe... thanks


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## Pogthefish

chop up a hotdog into 1cm cubes, they love itt. 

and always take them outside, at least every few hours, and they will usually go outside, prais them for it. then, they will catch on to going outside and forget they can go inside. you see? and NEVER reprimand them for going inside or they will think you punish them for peeing and just go hide.


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## Tikibirds

Sounds like Mr Bubbles - he has a massive cause of anxiety/seperation issues. I can't even take a crap in peace.


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## Sena Hansler

well of- .... .... 

I let the dog out then got side tracked xD

Vinegar and baking soda are pretty good with killing bacteria, and will it help with the pee smell, which not to me I mean, but to the dog?


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## sparkyjoe

I always loved the natural/holistic things for my dog. 

Most dogs can NOT resist tripe (the stinky, smelly (usually) cow stomach? But, I have a sensitive stomach and would not risk wet tripe so I got non-smelly, freeze dried tripe treats. The were a *huge* hit!

http://www.amazon.com/Vital-Essenti...LF04/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1337211257&sr=8-3


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## sparkyjoe

Sena Hansler said:


> I got him the wheat, corn and by-product free treats because well....healthy. But noooo :roll: I got him bones, but nooo... I got him those "bad for them because they are smoked and coated" bones, and he loved it xD


Naturally!


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## Tikibirds

> Vinegar and baking soda are pretty good with killing bacteria, and will it help with the pee smell, which not to me I mean, but to the dog?


My sister used baking soda and something else to get rid of a cat pee smell. I'll ask her what it was.
Can you rent a carpet steamer? Some places have them for rent. My mother is such a cleaning fanatic, like OCD about it - that she has a carpet steamer and uses it every time savannah pees on the floor (samoyed with diabetes and BAD arthritis).


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## LittleBettaFish

A good recipe I found online to get rid of cat pee (one of our cats is a compulsive sprayer so our carpet has been peed on everywhere) was vinegar followed up with dishwashing detergent mixed with hydrogen peroxide and then baking soda. 

http://www.catsofaustralia.com/urinestainremoval.htm

Don't know how it would work on dog pee but it got most of the smell out of my bedroom when I tried it.


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## Sena Hansler

Yeah I have a steamer  I also have agreen machine (borrowed) with deorderizer, and cleaner specifically for animal accidents. And a new crate :roll:

tripe?? hmm... well one store here you can get stuff like chicken, buffalo bones, beef, etc for dogs - for a decent price.


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## sparkyjoe

If I was going to get real ("fresh") tripe I would go to a butcher, not a pet store. Should be MUUUUUCH cheaper!


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: we lack a butcher and if we have one it's out of town and more expensive. I like Global Pet Foods :3


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## Olympia

Mmmm, pick some up for yourself if you go. Tripe soup is amazing. <3 I would never feed it to my dogs cause I'd just eat it all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolfie305

Dogs are like infants. Put them to bed, let them cry, and they'll eventually realize they aren't getting their way and then stop. The more you feed into it, the more he realizes that whining/crying gets him his way. Don't let him get his way.

I advise against pee-pads whole heartedly. Crate train him. Now. Make sure the crate is only big enough for him to turn around in - dogs won't use the bathroom in a space they have to lay in, which teaches him to hold it until he's let outside. If the crate is too big, he'll just pee in a corner and be okay with it. Not what you want.

If you SEE him peeing, IMMEDIATELY pick him up, mid pee, and bring him outside. He will automatically stop when picked up and resume outside, in which you reward him when he's done. If he doesn't like treats, try cheese or peanut butter or carrots.

Because he's not potty trained and still has the bladder of a puppy (and is a small dog), he needs to be treated like a puppy. Bring him outside EVERY two hours - when he does his business, reward him.

Potty training a DOG isn't easy. You have to be there every minute and every second of the day to watch him and catch him before he goes. You need the time.

As someone else mentioned, leave him alone for a small amount of time and slowly increase the amount each day or week. That might help with the anxiety.


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## Sena Hansler

thanks wolfie, but like I said he will pee/poop in his crate even if he only has the room to turn around D:


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## Olympia

Yea, he was kept in a crate for too long. Dogs like that lose their hygenic instincts- he probably had to sit in feces and urine for a really long time in his old home, so it doesn't bug him anymore and he doesn't realize it's gross. It's a common thing for dogs rescued from puppy mills especially.
Every time you get mad at him, he probably thinks you're gonna do whatever his owners did to him... Dogs like this are a patience game, he will change, but he is scarred and it will take time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolfie305

Yeah, you're just gonna have to keep up with putting him outside a LOT then.

Lots of positive reinforcement and no punishing what-so-ever. If he doesn't like treats, praise is just as good to some dogs (raise the pitch in your voice, get excited, tell him he's a good boy, etc).

Like Olympia said, patience is key. Cases like this can take months sometimes even years depending on the severity on his previous situation.


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## CaseyA

Sena Hansler said:


> the general anxiety he is just terrified of toys. That and he KNOWS he did something bad so he'll cower :roll: or slink away.


Sena, I just wanted to address this real quick.

The dog doesn't know he did something bad. He's reacting to your body language and tone of voice, and using submissive gestures trying to appease you. Cowering and slinking away are canine language for "you are over me in the social ranking, please don't hurt me."

Honestly, he hasn't a clue why you are angry, only that you _are_ angry.

If you don't react to his action within literally two seconds, the dog cannot associate a specific behavior with your displeasure. Even ten seconds later is too long for their brains to make the connection. So when you come home and find the pile of poo on the floor, he's cowering and slinking because you are angry--remember, body language and tone of voice is key--and he's trying to appease you. He has no clue that his poo'ing in the house is the reason you're upset.

A lot of people try to show the dog what they're angry about but that never works. The dog isn't going to associate that act of poo'ing with your anger, only the poo itself.

Do some reading on how dogs learn, it's fascinating and will really help you understand your dog and help him develop behaviors that please you and make your home a happy home once again.

Again, Pat Miller is a great place to start. She is an animal behavioralist and works with both dogs and horses that have serious problems. If nothing else, hit up the public library for the book I referenced earlier and read the sections on dog language, how dogs learn and how to develop training techniques that work with your dog's brain. I promise you won't regret it.


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## Wolfie305

I love those people who shove the dog's nose into their poop/pee to "teach them a lesson" :roll: Ugh.


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## CaseyA

Here's an excellent article on separation anxiety, generalized anxiety, isolation distress, and techniques to help the dog deal with it.

http://www.savethehounds.org/separation.html

A particularly good section:



> Another reason separation anxiety seems so prevalent these days compared to a few decades ago is that it is misdiagnosed with some frequency by laypersons. With an increased awareness of the condition has come an increase in misidentification of behaviors that resemble separation distress behaviors, but really aren’t.
> 
> For example, house soiling can be related to anxiety, but the cause could also be incomplete housetraining, lack of access to appropriate elimination areas with unreasonable owner expectations (expecting the dog to "hold it" for 10 hours or more); fear, excitement, marking, submissive elimination, or physical incontinence. Destructive behavior may a result of separation anxiety, or it could be normal puppy behavior, play, reaction to outside stimuli, and/or an outlet for excess energy. Separation distress could be the cause of excessive barking and howling, or the dog could be stimulated to bark by street sounds (traffic, people talking), trespassers (i.e.: mail carrier, intruder, Girls Scouts selling cookies), social facilitation (other dogs barking), play, aggression, or fear.
> 
> It’s critically important that a problem behavior be correctly identified prior to the implementation of a behavior modification program. It does no good to try to modify separation anxiety if that’s not really the problem. (See Sidebar—Case Study #1.)
> 
> If elimination accidents occur when the owner is home as well as when the dog is left alone, it’s more likely a housetraining problem than a separation issue. _Separation-related destruction is usually directed toward escape efforts – chewing or clawing at or through doorframes, windowsills and walls. If the destruction is more generalized throughout the house, it points toward one or more of the other possible causes, rather than an isolation issue._ A strategically located video camera or sound-activated tape recorder can help identify possible outside stimuli, such as visitors to the home or unusual noises, that might trigger what otherwise may appear to be separation-related behaviors.


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## CaseyA

Wolfie305 said:


> I love those people who shove the dog's nose into their poop/pee to "teach them a lesson" :roll: Ugh.


It's a very common misunderstanding, Wolfie. They just don't know how the canine brain works.

I have a breed of dog that _everyone_ says is untrainable. Even my vet said that training this dog would be almost impossible (that was a bit intimidating :shock:.) My dog is 21 months old now and is very well trained. She goes into stores with me, she visits elderly relatives' homes with me, and everyone says she's a doll.

When we got her I immediately started researching how dogs learn, and specifically how this breed learns. Because the breed has many wild canine behaviors they have to be trained differently than most other dogs but even they have canine brains. Between those two efforts, and spending a lot of time working on training her, I have a wonderful dog who is welcome wherever she goes.

It's all in understanding how their minds work and making use of that understanding to teach them how to live peacefully in our homes and among people. If a human doesn't teach them, they'll do what comes naturally to them--and much of that I don't want in MY house!

Don't be too hard on those ignorant people. Give them the information so they can go learn for themselves.


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## Sena Hansler

Casey, the thing is he cowers when I am not mad. He'll come from downstairs slinking with his tail between the legs, glancing at me as he hides beneath a chair.

What kind of dog is "untrainable" :roll: Oh heck, beagles you can train but people forget to STOP BABYING THEIR DOGS (which in many, many cases I've seen lead to the dog walking all over their people and being the leader), and they forget it's a dog that needs a job... Same with stubborn rotties - "after a certain age you can't train them." so says my brother, and a mastiff breeder. 1. yes you can. 2. yes you can. 3. just because they are stubborn doesn't mean they're stupid ><

I told my bf he is not using his dad's useless efforts. "But their dog doesn't poop in the house." good for THAT dog - completely different breed (bichon/spaniel) and they've had him since he was a puppy in their hand. Mine is NOT a puppy, but still has puppy problems, came from a neglectful home that abused him. His dad uses the "rub their nose in the mess" and "spank" method whcih fyi never...ever...hit a fearful dog. The rotti I dealt with was fear aggressive, not mean like everyone said... poor thing is STILL co-owned 

I've dealt with my friend's dog. he comes from a high stress home, he runs the house too... despite the chaos and the yelling and hate steaming in there. he came over, and immediately marks HIS territory in MY house. I stopped my friend from "smacking his rump" and said I'll watch him, and address it. He did it again, I just touched his shoulder and said "no!" and he flipped at me x.x So I let him throw a tantrum, while holding the leash/collar, and he flipped for 15 minutes... then he laid down and was relaxed.. not stiff like he was before. I wasn't angry though..
_______________________________________________________________

As for Gurgi, the new crate I got has all 4 sides open and he likes it better... maybe because he can see all around him - maybe it was the crate they used to use and he has become accustomed to is? I'm using it for "bedtime" which will give him a routine (and me the peace of mind my door can be open without him getting into garbage or defecating!!!) and shows the crate isn's bad. yesterday he cowered, I just placed him in front of it, and he went in by himself and I "praised" him. So he laid down and that was it.


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## Luimeril

Sena, how long do you walk your dog? many don't agree with his ways, but Dog Whisperer Ceaser Millan says many times the issue can be related to lack of proper exercise. smaller dogs are bundles of energy, and often need longer walks than other breeds. just putting the dog out to run about isn't the same as taking him/her for a good, long, tiring walk. even the other lady from Animal Planet... what was her name? Victoria something, says long walks are good in helping dogs with many different issues.


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## Sena Hansler

I agree with _some_ of Ceasar's ways  despite the hate spews. Some of it DOES make sense, some of it does work... Mainly the posture he mentions.

I walk him usually 2 times a day.. If I want to go downtown, I take him. That is a good 3 hour walk x.x by then I have to drag him :lol: or he is by my side. I walk until he is walking by my side without the urge to pull. Plus getting him with his bud Buddy, who is 8 and still a little energetic brick house, he gets real exhausted :lol:


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## Olympia

I'm not sure that they don't know they did something wrong.. If my dog throws ups when I'm gone, she acts like she did something wrong when I get home.. She's always all happy and loving, unless she did something while I was gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CaseyA

Poor little guy! Sounds like he has some serious trauma issues that are going to take a lot of time and love to help him move past. God bless you for taking the time to love him and help him! If he cowers when you just walk in the room, you're going to have to teach him that ALL good things come from you, NO BAD things come from you, and he's absolutely safe with you. It won't be a fast process but over time he will come to trust you. He may always be sensitive to new people, changes in the home and other stimuli that you wouldn't think would upset him.

Most dogs don't like the solid-sided shipping crates. I have a blanket over part of my dog's wire crate so she can have the "den" feel but still see out. If she were put in a shipping crate she'd go bonkers!

What kind of dog is considered untrainable? Siberian Huskies. You would be amazed at how many people, even so-called trainers, say that Siberians are not trainable except in harness pulling a sled (commands: gee, haw, hike, whoa.) The problem is that Siberians don't respond to praise. They are very independent dogs and couldn't care less whether their owner is pleased with them. Training routines used for other dogs, like collies and labs and breeds far removed from their wild heritage, simply don't work on Siberians, which leads many people to believe that they cannot be trained as a normal household pet. (Factoid: Based on an AKC genetic analysis of all recognized breeds, Siberian Huskies and Malamutes are the closest domesticated dog to the wolf genetically, except dogs produced by recent deliberate crossing with wolves. Third closest--honest!--is the Sharpei.) If one knows how Siberians think and accept their nature, one absolutely can train a Siberian as a housepet. Sadly far too many people purchase that sweet puppy thinking they have a shaggy, wolf-faced Labrador Retriever and when the pup hits adolescence (9-11 months old) and doesn't respond to standard training, the ignorant but well-meaning owners either dump the dog or banish him to the back yard.

My dog is proof positive that Siberians absolutely can be trained, want to be trained and will be trained if the human only learns their language.

Best of luck and I really recommend browsing Pat Miller's website. She works with abused and neglected dogs and horses, and she has some wonderful insight and tips for owners of those poor animals.


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## Luimeril

ceaser helped us out with some of our dogs. :V our Collie, though? nope. :I she was a handful, and we eventually had to rehome her after realizing we couldn't handle her. found a collie rescue up in NC, who took her, trained her good, and she was adopted by an elderly couple with a HUGE yard and another collie for her to play with. :B

but, he says you should walk dogs every day, at around the same time, for the same amount of time. since your dog has so many issues, it could help her out, relax her a little. she knows she gets a walk every day at the same time, so she knows what to expect every day. schedules help out with all kinds of issues as well. :3


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## CaseyA

Olympia said:


> I'm not sure that they don't know they did something wrong.. If my dog throws ups when I'm gone, she acts like she did something wrong when I get home.. She's always all happy and loving, unless she did something while I was gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Olympia, when you come home and find that pile of vomit do you sigh? I ask because dogs are masters at reading body language. Even something as innocuous as a heavy sigh can cue a dog into your mood. If you usually come in happy (smiling) and calling her name (happy tone of voice) and then spend a moment petting, but when the vomit is on the floor you skip the name calling for a mutter (low tone of voice) and a frown (change of facial posture) and forego petting, the dog will know you're displeased.

Test it out. Next time don't change anything about your voice, posture or routine and see how the dog responds.

Canine behavior and thinking is fascinating. My dog knows we're going to go for a ride long before I pick up the keys and her leash. Something I do consistently before getting ready to leave cues her in that we're going somewhere--I still don't know what I'm doing but she sure does!


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## CaseyA

Luimeril said:


> Sena, how long do you walk your dog? many don't agree with his ways, but Dog Whisperer Ceaser Millan says many times the issue can be related to lack of proper exercise. smaller dogs are bundles of energy, and often need longer walks than other breeds. just putting the dog out to run about isn't the same as taking him/her for a good, long, tiring walk. even the other lady from Animal Planet... what was her name? Victoria something, says long walks are good in helping dogs with many different issues.


About feeding: reducing the amount of protein and fats consumed daily can help calm a dog and reduce destructive behaviors. It's very much like candy and toddlers.


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## Olympia

No, she acts that way before I know anything happened. xD
I always ignore my dogs for a few minutes when I get home, they're too much to put up with if I start acting all happy, my puppy will pee from excitement if I start petting her and stuff right away, so I just wait till she's calmer.
My dogs are like that too, they see me picking up a coat, putting on lip balm, grab the car keys.. They go crazy..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CaseyA

Olympia said:


> No, she acts that way before I know anything happened. xD
> I always ignore my dogs for a few minutes when I get home, they're too much to put up with if I start acting all happy, my puppy will pee from excitement if I start petting her and stuff right away, so I just wait till she's calmer.
> My dogs are like that too, they see me picking up a coat, putting on lip balm, grab the car keys.. They go crazy..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, I'd love to know what she's cueing on! Perhaps she's one of those rare dogs who understand that a specific substance causes displeasure in the humans.

It seems all I have to do is *think* about getting in the truck and my dog is at the door doing her "going on a ride" dance!


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: that is what my dad's dog does. We come home and she automatically shows her belly, tail between the legs, then slinks off :lol: the first thing we think when we see her like that is "uh oh" :roll: same with this little furball ><

huskies are "untrainable"?? o_o isn't it just you have to treat them less like a dog (or in pople's cases, BABIES) and more as wild animals (packs)?

Anyways, I REALLY want to have him stop this pacing. It's literally making me sick/dizzy watching him go back and forth for hours on end  Any time he does that I make him lay next to me, so he'll stop!! D: and it isn't "I need to go outside" pacing, which is different (I figured it out), and it isn't "I'm missing a person in my counts" as Dean left this morning, and Gurgi was in his kennel still... Unless he does it due to tension? I mean most dogs I can roll over onto their backs(or sides if they're more comfortable that way) but he is stiffer than a wood board!


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## CaseyA

Sena Hansler said:


> :lol: that is what my dad's dog does. We come home and she automatically shows her belly, tail between the legs, then slinks off :lol: the first thing we think when we see her like that is "uh oh" :roll: same with this little furball ><
> 
> huskies are "untrainable"?? o_o isn't it just you have to treat them less like a dog (or in pople's cases, BABIES) and more as wild animals (packs)?


LOL Oh yeah, one definitely has to take the pack dynamics into account with Siberians. I once read in a book about the breed that every Siberian needs to know there is an alpha/leader in the house. If the dog doesn't recognize an alpha/leader, (s)he will take the position simply out of necessity--and no one wants that, least of all the Sibe! The breed really is very different than the average dog and has to be handled appropriately. But there is no smarter dog anywhere, and each has his/her own distinct personality. I will never have another breed.

If you're on any dog forums ask about training Siberians. Easily 95% of the responses will be some variation of "they're untrainable." Even my VET said it! I took great pleasure in their shock when I took her in for her annual physical at a year old. The entire staff was stunned and I answered a lot of "how did you do it?" questions.



> Anyways, I REALLY want to have him stop this pacing. It's literally making me sick/dizzy watching him go back and forth for hours on end  Any time he does that I make him lay next to me, so he'll stop!! D: and it isn't "I need to go outside" pacing, which is different (I figured it out), and it isn't "I'm missing a person in my counts" as Dean left this morning, and Gurgi was in his kennel still... Unless he does it due to tension? I mean most dogs I can roll over onto their backs(or sides if they're more comfortable that way) but he is stiffer than a wood board!


Oh no, never make him roll over on his back. That's a vulnerable position for a dog and especially for a frightened, stressed out dog. Dogs forced into that position believe they are about to be killed or seriously injured--that's why he's so stiff--and are liable to bite out of literal fear for their lives.

Have you tried sitting in the middle of the floor while he's pacing? Sit and talk to him in a calm voice--doesn't matter what you say, it's the tone of your voice that matters--until he comes to you. Scratch him in his favorite place or give him whatever he loves most, praising him in a higher pitched tone (higher pitch=good, lower pitch=bad.) If he goes back to pacing resume talking in the calm voice until he comes to you. Repeat as often as possible, or until he's no longer going back to pacing.

If you can afford to have a licensed dog behavioralist assess him, I'd do it. Many of them will come to your home and give you advice on how to help him with his specific problems. 

Talk to your vet about a mild tranquilizer or sedative to use while you're working on his anxiety and other behaviors. In the meantime, you can use 1-2mg of benadryl per pound of body weight as a sedative. I wouldn't use it for long, but in a pinch it works well.

Remember, he isn't doing these things to drive you crazy. It's the only way he knows of to lessen his stress, feel safe, etc.


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## Sena Hansler

Well I never force him. if we're playing, I can do it no problem, because I make it into a game, and letting him see showing his belly doesn't mean he'll "get hurt" :lol: He is still NOT on his back I mean. Like ALWAYS stiff!


I won't use drugs on my dog. None.


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## Luimeril

my mom's had many different dogs over the course of her life, so i asked her what to do about a dog who paces. she suggested 'keeping him busy". have him doing something all the time, be it playing or walking or whatever. :V


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## Sena Hansler

Okay  Well right now he is... -checks- lying under my chair :|

OH!!!! I figured out a way to unvelcro him :lol: Today I'm upstairs, downstairs, outside, inside... Eventually he stops trying to follow me :roll:


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## Luimeril

he's staying by your side out of comfort. to him, you are safe. you won't let no one else hurt him. you just have to find a way to make him feel secure without you. like with a favorite blanket or plushie. :B


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## Sena Hansler

Hmmm.... he doesn't really have an attachment to any object  my dad's dog loved her bed (or any dg bed for that matter xD) my mom's dog LOVED her bobo...


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## CaseyA

Sena Hansler said:


> Well I never force him. if we're playing, I can do it no problem, because I make it into a game, and letting him see showing his belly doesn't mean he'll "get hurt" :lol: He is still NOT on his back I mean. Like ALWAYS stiff!


Ohhh, okay! Sorry for misunderstanding.




> I won't use drugs on my dog. None.


I hope you never need to. I had to use the benadryl on mine once to keep her calm to recover from an injury, my vet recommended it, and it worked well.


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## Sheldon31

I don't have any advice. Just wanted to say I have a velcro cat! My black and white 2 year old cat wants to be near me ALL THE TIME! Sometimes it's sweet. Other times I just wanna peel him off me! Good luck with your Velcro Dog  (btw love that!)


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## Luimeril

the breeder we got our Peke from suggested pepto bismol when Holly had an upset tummy. while she hated it, it DID calm her stomach down... x:


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## LittleBettaFish

Drugs can sometimes be good to break the pattern of behaviour and let you re-train a more desirable one. We have our cat on Clomicalm as he has some kind of problem that leads to him spraying everywhere (it was either drugs or euthanasia), constantly fetching anything he can fit in his mouth and attacking the other cat. 

On Clomicalm he rarely sprays and while he fetches it is not that obsessive 'bring a hundred toys to you' type way. It breaks up that urgency and makes it less likely for him to _have_ to pee in that spot (you literally have to wrest him away sometimes as he will keep coming back over and over).

Just saying drugs are not necessarily a bad thing. We have tried everything with this cat and in 99% of houses spraying like our cat does is a death sentence. 

As long as you read up and know the effects of the drugs and the reasoning behind them, they can be just a good a training tool as any.


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## Olympia

We've used pepto bismol on our first boxer. She loved it, but I was 5 and screaming people medicine will kill her... xD oh lord.
My dobe is Velcro, but not out of anxiety, that's just the breed. Never tires of following me up or down the stairs.
I know when puppies go to new homes a lot of breeders will rub a blanket on the mom/litter mates. It smells familiar and comforts them. Maybe you can leave him something that smells like you?
Sorry if this is unhealthy, but I read soaking/cooking (not sure which) raw hide in chicken broth will keep a dog busy, it's supposed to soak in and stay flavoured for a long time.. Healthier than those greasy bones for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBettaFish

Just watch with cheaper rawhides. There has been a lot of recalls and issues with them due to less than excellent production practices in China. A few dogs have gotten sick or died due to being fed Chinese produced rawhide.


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## Pogthefish

mine choke on some brands


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## Laki

Rescue Remedy by bach's may calm him down. Coupled with melatonin/valerian (to put him to sleep and let's him relax) might help him feel calm. Thunder shirt might too. All of these I used on my dog, they're human grade and not dangerous. And they're cheapeer than the vet. I know valium and prozac use on dogs can really just make them worse. 

Unfortunately, separation anxiety is the hardest behavior to beat. And the velcro training needs to happen while you're home. Use baby gates to separate you from the dog and ignore all whining and barking but make sure he can see you. It's hard to break the behaviour but mentally it is almost necessary. My dog was 14 yrs old and he probably couldn have gone another year or so if it wasn't for his insanity brought on by a life of unchecked anxiety. I love my dog and I don't regret the decision we made but I'm just saying, I've been there. I know where you're coming from. I feel for you and the problems which may arise and the stress about the indoor messing. 

Another things you can try to help train him while he's inside. Dog diaper (labelled "male dog restrictive wraps") are velcro and they wrap around the waist. You can buy dog pads for them but I find they stay wet and give a rash. Coco had about a year using them but we lined them with adult male depends. There's a layer of cotton on them which soaks the urine dee into the lining so the dog remains dry. Coco peed like 3 times per day in his and didn't get wet!! And it saved couches, beds and laundry fro urine. I second the Nature's Miracle to break down the odor enzymes. 

Training for this will be a life long thing with your dog. I'm here to talk whenever


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## CaseyA

LittleBettaFish said:


> Just watch with cheaper rawhides. There has been a lot of recalls and issues with them due to less than excellent production practices in China. A few dogs have gotten sick or died due to being fed Chinese produced rawhide.


Any and all rawhide can also cause pancreatitis (serious, sometimes fatal swelling of the pancreas) in dogs that swallow some or all of the rawhide. I generally stay away from rawhide, but if used just be watchful for pancreas issues.


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## Sena Hansler

He doesn't touch his rawhide bones :lol: I'll scrap them :roll:
Baby gates... tried it  silly looking gangly terrier legs and his builidng confidence help him get over the gate :roll: and considering MOST dogs will not jump over something that leads to lower or higher levels (stairs) he isn't MOST dogs D: and that is dangerous. So we don't use it xD

Sheldon: I know right? I got tired of him following me... all you hear from downstairs is an exasperated "LEAVE ME ALONG VELCRO DOG!!!" and the little fluff ball bounce up stairs to cling to my boyfriend :lol:

I'm going to have him in the crate 2 times a day, when I am home, only for about 10-15 minutes.. Yesterday I had him in there, the door WIDE open and he wouldn't get out :roll: he snoozed in there.  Which is fine. He came out when he wanted to.

Luckily for me his anxiety is MINOR compared to most dogs I've encountered. My dad's dog, would have to have drugs because she injures her teeth, her paws, her nose, damages the crate or the house - hence all these self-inflicted panic wounds x.x

I would love to come home to a home not a horror, a dog not a problem, y'know?


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## Sena Hansler

I'm sorry, but obviously IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE DOG FREAKING PACES!!! Hey, what the heck, GO ON THE COUCH WITHOUT BEING ALLOWED, why not PEE ON THE RUG AGAIN :roll:

WHy am I saying this? Because I was trying to get Gurgi to stop pacing, but obviously my boyfriend thinks IT IS OKAY becasue his dad's dog paces all the time. NO IT IS NOT OKAY. He'll do it for HOURS if you let him and that CANNOT be healthy! But hey, not like he's listening to me, and the dog actually likes him more because MY BOYFRIEND is the one making me more frustrated than anything ELSE, and the dog knows I am frustrated, even if it is not directed at him.


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## LionCalie

Can I ask a honest question? What were you expecting when you got a horribly abused dog? I'm not judging you, but it does have me wondering. He needs time and patience... you've only had him for like 3 weeks, yes? I would definitely advise you to try your best to not yell at him in any way, especially in frustration. That will not help him to bond with you at all. 

I'm worried you have committed to something that you cannot handle. Saving an abused animal can be very rewarding, but the rehabilitation can be more than some people can handle. He has been broken by past abuse.... It will take a lot of time and effort to fix that. I speak from experience. My first horse had been horrifically abused. People said he would kill me and that I should euthanize him. It took 1 year of literally blood, sweat, and tears to get past all his problems. 

But you know what? We developed the strongest bond and he became a truly awesome horse.


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## Sena Hansler

I'll answer that honestly. YES I knew what I was getting into. YES it IS rewarding, and NO it is something I can handle.

What I thinking I am unable to handle is my boyfriend's lack of realization that this animal needs help, not just SPOILING! :roll: Truthfully, if we can't work like a family/team/household FOR this dog I will do what's in the best interest of the dog :-( despite wanting to keep him. It seems like every step forward I make with Gurgi, my boyfriend drags ALL OF US back 5 steps. Right now to avoid any anger, frustration and all that feeling I've got my headphones on and bass melting my brain -.- I let Gurgi pace, as was mentioned before... then I got him to come to me so he'd just lay with me (right now he is pacing for the last half hour!) but my boyfriend despite me telling him OVER AND OVER says IT'S OKAY FOR HIM TO PACE. So you know what? I'm about to go for a walk. By myself. Gurgi got his walks today, but there's nothing else I can do without my boyfriend being an arse and destroying my effort :roll:


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## Laki

There's nothing you can do for your bf wxcept try to talk to him. While living with my terribly anxious dog I had many a talk with the bf (who constantly got annoyed and shouted) but he needs to realise himself that the dog shouldn't pace for hours. And that there is some really bad things in the dog's head for him to be doing so  Was he looked at by a vet? Is his pacing neurological or behavioual?


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## CaseyA

Sena Hansler said:


> I'll answer that honestly. YES I knew what I was getting into. YES it IS rewarding, and NO it is something I can handle.
> 
> What I thinking I am unable to handle is my boyfriend's lack of realization that this animal needs help, not just SPOILING! :roll: Truthfully, if we can't work like a family/team/household FOR this dog I will do what's in the best interest of the dog :-( despite wanting to keep him. It seems like every step forward I make with Gurgi, my boyfriend drags ALL OF US back 5 steps. Right now to avoid any anger, frustration and all that feeling I've got my headphones on and bass melting my brain -.- I let Gurgi pace, as was mentioned before... then I got him to come to me so he'd just lay with me (right now he is pacing for the last half hour!) but my boyfriend despite me telling him OVER AND OVER says IT'S OKAY FOR HIM TO PACE. So you know what? I'm about to go for a walk. By myself. Gurgi got his walks today, but there's nothing else I can do without my boyfriend being an arse and destroying my effort :roll:


Man, that has to be the most frustrating thing! Has your bf had to clean up the poop and pee? Has he had to handle the other behaviors? If not, he has no clue how important it is that he be on board with the treatment plan.

I wish I had the trick to turning obstinate other halves into cooperative helpful members of the family.


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## Olympia

Sena we're on the same boat.
For FOUR MONTHS I told my parents that Mocha has to go to puppy school. Just a few weeks ago, their friend that works with dobes told them that she has to go to puppy school. "Olimpia why didn't you tell us before?" I DID. NOW it's valid? What I've been saying for months?! Well FYI it's a little late now. 
Urg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler

Well the thing is, looking the dog over, his hips are very bony (if he would eat I intend to fatten him a lil ). I noticed he has been yelping when a part of his tail is touched, not sure where. Since his tail is curly, very possible the kid bent it the wrong way and it's been tender since? I know my old cat who had a bad accident her tail always hurt her :/ I cannot find the tender spot, but he tends to play with his mouth if you touch his tail :lol:

And if I can get a picture, tell me what's wrong with the position of his leg/s!! it's bugging me! the only dogs I know who have the weird inturned or out-ward turned feet, is not my dog :/ like bulldogs, for instense because of their low wide stance.

Well yesterday (not at home or in front of the dog) I just kind of ranted at my bf -.- about a few things, and about Gurgi. He realized I knew some things he didn't think I knew, he knew I was P'O'd with cleaning up his friends mess, and P'O'd he cannot get on track for the dog!

I felt a lot less stressed/frustrated when I got home, and he was really upset/ realizing he had to get his act together on ALL levels. The carpet is clean, btw 

So now, we can get on track for Gurgi!! 


Also, anyone knw some good homemade agility stuff?  I would start with a wood board for him to step over and get accustomed to. Since he is a terrier (some days a terror :lol he has that spunk and obviously he can jump lol. I don't want anything too hard for him because I am not sure if they had his leg broken/fractured/whatnots.


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## Sena Hansler

Ewww .... ... :/ Is there a way to discourage peeing in the crate? I left for downtown, only an hour and a half gone - then came home. He peed in the crate... Like you guys have pointed out, because he has been in a crate for so so long in his abusive home, he sees no reason to not defecate/urinate where he lays  like mill pups... D:

However I made him wait until I said he could come out of the crate, (didn't take too long  ) and then got him outside immediately... Will letting him out each time we practice using the crate for good, or after he's crated when we leave, help with him learning he can go AFTER he exits the crate??


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## Sena Hansler

I will also be talking to my neighbor, about her kids. One of them was scaring the bejeezus out of poor Gurgi while he was outside WITH HIS BIKE. Yes, little children, scare my fearful dog even more :roll: looks like I have to lay the rules down for more than MY household D:


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## Olympia

The way his legs are turned in/out is a sign of bad breeding, since in most breeds you want to keep the legs straight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler

yeah, plus his one leg looks "off" to me... :/ but hey, he probably could've been a mill dog :roll: or a "I let my dog breed because I didn't spay her" situation. which both are pretty darn common


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## Laki

What kind of dog is it again?? My terrier mutt's paws faced outwards when he stood still and he never had a problem! There were no bows in his legs though, so I don't know if there's a difference in your Gurgi. 

Neighborhood kids used to taunt my dog too, with hockey sticks, skateboards and sticks. It got so bad we had to only let him in the backyard tied to a clothesline and supervised so as soon as the kids came we could reel the dog in..  sad thing, he was too focused on the kids to listen to us. 

There's nothing you can do about the kids. Their parents won't care (obviously, because the kids shouldn't be doing it in the first place) and the kids will only get worse if you try to tell them to stop. Maybe just take Gurgi outside when the kids are down the road and try to avoid them, all the while talking good things to him. 

Peeing in the crate because of a history of doing so might be near impossible to break. Any separation behaviour is the hardest to correct and train because it happens while nobody is home. Sorry, I couldn't kennel train my dog (especially after he got his teeth stuck in the bars and nearly broke his jaw) so I cannot offer advice there 

Patience is bliss. Learning to adjust to a semi-broken dog is hard. The dog is confused and I know you're on the right track to healing him


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## Sena Hansler

He is a westland terrier, shitzu, pomeranian. West Shitzanian? :roll: 

His legs have bows in it D: Or at least to me it seems abnormal... It's mainly the left leg. His foot is bowed, and turned out more when he sits or walks. His leg seems bent oddly, even though the other one is.

Also, I've noticed his tail has been hurting him? I do not feel any ridges or curves or anything, but since they DID have a 6 year old who bullied him (grrr what people teach their children!) it's very possible there's permanent damage 

I'll get a pic of him here soon.

It's easier on weekdays for the kids, as it's 800-830 for school, then 300-430 from school -.- I caught the little snot too - he had his back wheel of his bike on the leash, and the front one waving over my dog. 

Yeah, my dad's dog used to rub her nose raw grabbing a hold of the bars and pulling them in - making her mouth bleed and her teeth break!! So I know how difficult kennel training can be for some doggies  For him he sounds like a puppy :roll:

I think what I might do, is when I am off, have him in there a few times for a short time, let him out, get him outside, bring him in and all over again an hour or so later, increasing the time in the kennel?

edit: ... okay I edited the picture to be the proper view, instead of sideways, and if it doesn't work again I am sorry ><


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## Laki

oh my gawd isn't he just the cutest!!! I wouldn't leave him outside unattended anymore though. God knows what the kids might try next. I think I see the bow but if it doesn't seem to affect his walking, maybe it's a birth thing? Hopefully. The way his paws turn out doesn't seem too bad (unless the vet decides there is). My dogs feet used to do that too, as I said, and he lived to be 14 without anything other than arthritis affecting his legs. (I don't want to spam your thread with a pic of his feet... unless you want me too  )


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## Sena Hansler

haha go ahead  Well the one thing that is worrying me is his tail... We usually play, but when I went "I got your tail!" which btw held loosely, as always, and he gave out the loudest yelp and slinked off!  When we go into the vet for his vaccinations I want him to check that too  I guess I do feel a "bump" in the middle of his tail


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## Laki

This was 2 years ago. I think the paws here look like Gurgi's. Spindly but pointed out. 
As for the tail (lol at the "got your tail") I guess there could be a fracture in the disc's there  I'd say just be careful. Dogs are known to exxagerate their pain for attention so if he's not doing that I assume it's not bothering him unless someone grabs it!


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## Sena Hansler

Well it's been a few times recently he's been yelping - not a "leave me be" yelp but a down to earth "OUCH!!!" yelp  I never stepped on it as far as I am concerned... Unless my boyfriend's younger brother did? It's very possible.
We don't play like that anymore because I don't want to hurt him -.-

And I see what you mean about your dog


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## Olympia

When the legs stick outward it's called cow hocked- it's a birth thing I'm guessing since both sides are pretty even. It really shouldn't affect him that much (just he'd be a bad show dog specimen.)

Maybe he has bad memories of kids grabbing his tail and just doesn't like it, since you say you found no sore looking areas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler

Yeah but I'm no expert. And the thing is I do that to him alot, and he doesnt really care. just recently it's been hurting him - it's not a "I don't like it" yelp as if he doesn't like it he slinks off or shuts down


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## BeckyFish97

Ok does his tail have any major flicks in the fur around the tender spot?This can indicate underlying problems eg:a slipped disk, pulled muscle etc.
Number 2 is:
*Q: Why does my dog go nuts and tear up my house every time I leave? How can I stop this from happening?*
A: This is separation anxiety. The excessive chewing to relieve the stress it feels. Continual barking. Pacing. Whining. Sometimes, if it’s really excessive, a dog will chew through walls. I’ve had dogs jump through windows, through glass, to get outside. Most of the destruction is centered on points of exit.
You have to do what I call independence training. You have to stop the hyper-attachment. You have to give your dog the ability to cope. I desensitize a dog to departure triggers, for instance. The dog’s watching you. You’re putting on your clothes, you’re putting on your make up, you get your keys, and the stress starts when you’re putting on your makeup. He knows you’re going to leave, so he starts to fret and get very anxious. So we start to desensitize him to the triggers. You put on your makeup and you don’t leave. You put on your coat and you stay in the house. You break your ritual completely. You go out the door and you come right back. And you do it 50 times a day.

*Q: Can my dog be cured of his fears and anxieties? Or do I just have to learn how to control his problems?*
A: A lot of dogs can be modified to a point where they don’t suffer from it any more, but I don’t ever like to use the word “cured.”
A lot of cases can be 90%, 95% made better. Some just 60%. Separation anxiety is one of the hardest, because it’s so difficult to work with. And aggression. Aggression is wildly misunderstood, but when it is understood it can take a while for a dog to feel confident and calm.
There’s no amazing quick fix. You’re talking about behavior. You’re talking about the way the brain reacts. If you’re a human, and you’ve got a real anxiety, you’re not going to get better after just one visit to the psychiatrist. It’s going to take a lot of therapy to get you to the point where you feel better. And, it’s exactly the same with the dogs.

Just something I found-This is victoria stilwell-or I think thats what she's called, in my eyes her methods are GOLDEN, I've never tried one yet that hasn't worked!!!There was a paticular episode that I remember focused on seperation anxiety, I'm trying to find the link to it now!

You may want to have a look through some of the episodes of it's me or the dog usa, some of her methods are absolute genius!Was he checked by a vet?Did they mention anything about his thyroid?Sometimes it can cause irratic behaviour-maybe check that out?I just remembered while looking through her vids.


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## Sena Hansler

hehe I do that!!! I put a jacket on. Or my shoes. O rgrab my keys. then go on the computer 

flicks in the fur...? Do you have a picture of that? He has the long poofy tail of a pomeranian :roll: it only curls at the very end of his tail bone, which isn't the problem spot.


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## LittleBettaFish

Have you tried taking him to a vet or a good Chiropractor for a check-up? Our puppy did something to her pelvis that was causing her to walk and run funny and a couple of visits to the Chiropractor and she was back to normal.

If he is experiencing chronic or continual pain, this could be adding fuel to the fire of his already existing anxiety and housebreaking issues.


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## Sena Hansler

chirporactor? o_o here All we have is half nitwits, people who only deal with horses or large animals, or people who deal with dogs/cats but not to a point like chiropractors, except to pay a pretty penny to go to stuff like... -brain died- :| The treatments to gain strength in a dog's muscles, via water.

but when we do get him in for shots, I'll talk to the vet.


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## Sena Hansler

-Sigh- yes, let's take an unexperienced person's "knowledge" to the bank and call it an invention.

Apparently my bf's mother says the pacing is because "he is an energetic dog". And no, it's not. I've dealt with lazy, energetic, anxiety, and boredom dogs... His is a stiff "I'm lost/confused/worried" pacing, not a "I WANNA PLAY! =D" pacing.

But hey, everyone against me right? Let's feed the dog people food, let's spoil him and treat him like a child, and let's let him pace for 3 hours on end even AFTER a walk, and especially after someone leaves :roll:

You know.. sadly.. as much as I like my dog, obviously no one is on track and anything I do the people around me will set back. In the best interest of Gurgi, I may need to find him a new home, if the old owners don't take him (which I told them I'd ask them first if ANYTHING happened!) :-( Which SUCKS.

edit: They are basing the pacing off of TEHIR dog, who paces and...surprise surprise... ALSO has anxiety issues, which they'll deny. "Nahhh that's normal." So you know what... My dog is going to suffer imensely. So I don't really have a choice, I'd rather give the dog a chance with someone else then be stuck in this group of people who cannot agree on what SHOULD be done.


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## Laki

Aw  Maybe you can ask the spca to help you find him a home with someone experienced with special needs dogs. Not that he's special needs, but he needs someone who is totally prepared for the behaviour


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## Sena Hansler

Yeah :-( It's not fair to him. For me, getting a dog was supposed to be rewarding, something to do, considering I do not get many hours for work. But it's going to turn into a horrible mess at this rate. D:


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## LionCalie

Didn't his previous home abuse him? Sorry, I cannot remember the details. 

He is your dog, correct? Then why are you letting other peoples ignorant comments dictate if you keep him or not? You know they have no clue what they are talking about. If they are undermining his training progress with their ignorance... well I could see how that is not a good situation for Gurgi to be in. It must be very confusing for him. 

What a sad situation all around. :-(


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## Sena Hansler

Lol it's confusing.. His "first" owners were the abusive home. the people who had him last, had him for a short time and only to remove him from that abusive home and provide him with safety. But, they had a male dog who didn't like him, one lady had a kid, and they no longer had the time for him. 

Well, the thing is when I live with someone they need to be on the right track. When he keeps questioning me, the dog gets nowhere. Especially when whatsherface and knowitall pipe up and he'll believe them over me.

If the lady who had him last doesn't reply, I will find him a new home and I will be 100% choosy, want to meet the people, and would prefer someone older and possibly has a PROPERLY fenced house... :lol:


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## CaseyA

Sena Hansler said:


> Lol it's confusing.. His "first" owners were the abusive home. the people who had him last, had him for a short time and only to remove him from that abusive home and provide him with safety. But, they had a male dog who didn't like him, one lady had a kid, and they no longer had the time for him.
> 
> Well, the thing is when I live with someone they need to be on the right track. When he keeps questioning me, the dog gets nowhere. Especially when whatsherface and knowitall pipe up and he'll believe them over me.
> 
> If the lady who had him last doesn't reply, I will find him a new home and I will be 100% choosy, want to meet the people, and would prefer someone older and possibly has a PROPERLY fenced house... :lol:


If he's getting unhealthy human food (sweets, processed junk, etc.) he could be having reactions to that as well as his abuse issues. Diet is a HUGE thing for dogs and their diets really should match their age, activity level, etc. Think of it like giving five pounds of candy to a child with hyperactivity--same principle.

I'd ask for a thyroid panel during your next vet visit just to make sure his problems aren't exacerbated by hypo- or hyperthyroidism (sounds more hyper than hypo if thyroid is involved.)

Far be it from me to give Dear Abby advice to a stranger but if you're having these kinds of problems with your boyfriend and his family now over a dog, please think long and hard before marrying and/or bringing a child into it. Marriage and parenthood are hard enough when both of you are on the same page and working for the same goals (17 years experience  .) 

I promise, that's the last unsolicited advice I'll ever give on that subject.


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## Sena Hansler

Oh heck I don't want kids right now anyways :lol: Plus a dog is a child?  If I had kids, I'd tell his mother off. And she knows it. She's nice and all, but some things I will be aggressive about. 

And I will ask about that, when I go to the vet - thanks. I'm guessing he used to eat garbag a LOT, and people food, which explained why he didn't really want dog food. Now he eats it no problem - I get him to sit and stay, put the food down, get him some water, then tell him "okay" and he'll go ahead.


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## CaseyA

Instilling good mealtime habits is so important! Both for his mealtimes and yours. I can't stand a dog begging at a dinner table. Mine has been forbidden from even thinking about it since she was 10 weeks old. It was easier teaching her table manners than my kids, come to think of it. . .. 

Sounds like you know what needs to happen and only require the humans' cooperation to really help this guy. Grrrrrr. . . .. I'm frustrated on your behalf.


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## Sena Hansler

I know right?! We're giving this another month or so, and if everyone cannot shut up or get on the same track, it's not good for the dog :roll: and I'll put my foot down on that. His mom: "I think, that this dog is probably going to end up living with me, don't you think?" Kind of a low blow of "you can't handle him!" :| NO. He won't go to her, that would be worse since the kid is very aggressive to the two cats and the dog they already have.


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## CaseyA

I wish I had the magic wand to wave over their heads and turn the lights on. If I find it, I'll happily send it to you after I use it on a couple of people in my vicinity. . ..


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## Sena Hansler

Awesome! xD

Well last night Gurgi went into the kennel by himself. I have a blanket draped over the sides.

I think he "can" (is able to) pace considering the fact I have an open kitchen and living room. there's a wall in the center, with both sides open, and it gives him the ability to pace. I blocekd off one side, then the other, and he didn't know what to do with himself! :lol:


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## Olympia

Sorry if this is totally wrong. But if I'm correct, pacing is a release for the dog.. maybe you shouldn't be stopping it, but instead replacing it with something more fun? Like I know you can't play with him 24/7 but there must be SOMETHING he likes to do by himself. :/


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## Sena Hansler

I have no idea. I've been trying to find it... And yes that is what it is. Because I've seen dogs coming from tense, stressful homes doing something such as obsessively licking, chewing, whining, pacing, panting etc because they are trying to release the build up of tension they had lived or grown up around. I've let one dog release his tension, because I corrected him and he flipped out, I just held him calmly, letting his throw himself here and there, bite at my hands, growl, bark, snarl, and basically a full blown explosion of a tantrum! After he laid there, panting. He was pretty awesome afterwards I tell you!!

I dunno how to release this booger's tension


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## Laki

Maybe a gentle holistic medicine (Rescue Remedy- which you can buy in natural health stores in human grade) might help calm hi down enough for you to teach him a distraction? 
Although, last going out, my dog's anxiety was permanent. The only time he was calm was on a walk (and that would get ruined if he heard someone slam a car door or dip into a pothole) and when both me and matt turned off the lights nd went to bed. I hope that Gurgi's brain isn't as messed up with permanent anxiety as my dog was- he's still young.


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## Sena Hansler

He's not as bad. Since the kid next door realizes I do see him coming from the front yard to his plaec, he hasn't pestered my dog because I WILL SEE HIM  I wanted to be able to get Gurgi accustomed to bikes, so I could go biking with him - which I've done before with my dad's dog, and it's a great way to drain the energy in an energetic dog.

Well, the good thing is he doesn't care if you pet him while eats (I've been encouraging him to eat this way, by saying "good boy" and petting him when he begins eating), or stick your hand in the bowl :lol: then he knows he goes outside when he is finished.


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## SnowySurface

CaseyA said:


> If he's getting unhealthy human food (sweets, processed junk, etc.) he could be having reactions to that as well as his abuse issues. Diet is a HUGE thing for dogs and their diets really should match their age, activity level, etc. Think of it like giving five pounds of candy to a child with hyperactivity--same principle.


I've been ninja stalking this thread for a while because I find it interesting but don't have much to contribute.  

I hate that example of, "Don't give hyper kids sweets!" As someone who had server ADHD as a child and still has moderate symptoms as an adult, sugar = more hyper is an over simplification. Yes, excessive amounts of sugar can cause a "sugar high" but that isn't the same thing as hyperactivity. "Sugar highs" die down after a while and leaves a kid so wiped they pass out where they lie. Hyperactivity is the reason why I was always the last kid standing at most sleepovers. It's a constant over-drive mode instead of a sudden shift in energy levels. It's very hard to get people to believe that a bag of skittles makes me "hyper" because I'm human. Believe me, a bag of skittles does not have the power to negate my medication. :roll: 

In fact, my symptoms improved greatly once I cut soda out of my life and switched to de-cafe tea. Caffine has much more damaging effects on someone dealing with hyperactivity than sugar. So, change the example to "Think of it like giving five cans of Red Bull to a child with hyperactivity--same principle," and you've hit the nail right on the head. :-D

Ok...Now that the PSA is over, everyone can return to their regularly scheduled topic. :thankyou:


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: Hiya Snowy xD

-forgot my dog outside- hmmm no wonder it was quiet :lol:

Anyways, today him and I may swing by the pet store (to snatch some bettas, that need my snatching) you know how hard it is to keep a dog from peeing where others have gone? :roll: The store is bad for that. I've had to "tch" him and snap the leash lightly for him to "disengage" :lol:


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## SnowySurface

*Pokes head out of hiding place* :wave:


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## Sena Hansler

:lol:


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## Sena Hansler

-sighs- well we won't be able to keep him since he keeps peeing/pooping on the carpet. I think he better go to someone who is home more often, probably isn't renting (therefore no angry landlord!) and would do the dog good... :-(


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## Laki

Aw I'm sorry to hear!! My heart goes out to you, it cannot be easy for you


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## Sena Hansler

It hurts, for sure -.- And now the more painful part... making sure he gets a home that is a home, not a...well... terrible place where he'll be back in the same problems?


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## Sena Hansler

BLARG my stupid heart is being a poop-head and saying "noooo not yet!!" 

So I'm concocting some herbal remedy. hopefully he likes teat. or tea and honey. Or marjoram. Or oils like lavender and such.


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## Olympia

Even rubbing oils around his neck can have a calming effect. :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler

it's just finding it xD

GOSH he is like a picky child. You know I had to make him eat a treat?? who does that? >< WHO REFUSES A TREAT?! :lol: eventually he ate it because I wouldn't stop offering :roll: he likes it.
Now he refuses chamomile. SO I added honey. He didn't want the honey. So I tricked him BWAHAHA I added it to his food. And he ate it.


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## Olympia

Sena if you need help making an oil infusion with herbs yourself I can help you out with that.  I know you're a DIY kind of person. 

Zara will sometimes refuse fine deli cuts. :| She hates sausage too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sena Hansler

Dogs are weird.
And like children.
Now I know what to expect from children, since I have a dog.
And I don't think you can give THEM away :roll: 

:lol:

Well, I can't get fresh awesome stuff, I do have dried chamomile and marjoram, I have no idea if _candles_ would help but since it would be when I was not home they can't be lit. I also have dried roses. Because...hellooo artist :roll: :lol:

I read somewhere, Valerian is the step up from Chamomile for strength then St John's Wort, which my dad's dog needs St John's Wort. Hopefully Gurgi only needs chamomile!


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## Olympia

Doesn't need to be fresh to make oils. :-D Some infusions will take a couple weeks to complete, but you can speed it up by boiling (I'd have to look into whether boiling will ruin the medicinal properties we are after however..)
Another good one is Lemon Balm, Melissa officinalis. It's safe for dogs and is quite calming. Valerian is another good one that's pretty fast acting.
St. John's Wort is definitely one you can find in the herbal tea section (usually lemon balm as well, not sure about valerian). Another good one that you may not know of is oats, which my book recommends combining with St. John's Wort. 

Now for cautions: People medicine, I know a thing or two about. Dogs are totally different, I had to look up online if the lemon balm was safe for dogs for example. You're best off talking to your vet before trying anything with him. People tend to think that herbs are nice, safe alternatives with no side effects. Of course, almost all of our powerful scary drugs come from herbal extracts, just mixed up a little more. Improper use of herbs can be just as damaging to the body as any other drugs (I myself experienced this several years ago).
I don't think you can overdose anything via skin application so I'd start by trying that if you can't get a professional to talk to. Taking things internally is much more risky. The chamomile and marjoram are pretty weak so not much worry, but anything else needs to be looked into more.
They do sell over the counter herbal remedy things for animals, which are usually in such low doses that they can't be a danger, if that's what you want to try first.


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## Sena Hansler

Well the problem with the vets here, they'll push you to get the junk they sell which btw is 90 dollars PER MONTH (bottle) and cannot exceed 90 days, and can make the dog seriously ill :roll: we went through this with my dad's dog. Hopefully I can find a decent one.

PLUS someone to look over his tail. Xrays will cost me groceries and home so that won't be able to happen especially fi I want him neutered :lol:

I do have a thought... I'll post a picture of a diagram of my upstairs. and where he paces. I've been blocking with random stuff like boxes and such to keep him from pacing...


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## LittleBettaFish

Why don't you just ask your vet about medications that may help with your dog's anxiety? If it's getting to the point of re-homing I really think it's something you should consider. 

Like I said earlier in this thread, off his medication our cat sprays on everything, is more aggressive towards our other cat and is generally a lot more neurotic and prone to having accidents. On his medication he is much more relaxed and very rarely sprays. He is also much calmer around our other cat and seems to have more inhibitions in regards to his risk-taking behaviour. 

Medication can help break the cycle as once your dog becomes overanxious and overexcited, the window for any productive learning snaps shut. The dog isn't going to be listening or focusing and it's going to be a pretty pointless training session. 

Also as sad or cruel as this sounds, but if it does come to rehoming and you can't find a suitable home or rescue to take him in I would advise euthanasia. Sounds like he has a lot of issues and in a world where even healthy, sane dogs end up at shelters and on death row, sometimes being surrounded by the people he knows and trusts while being put to sleep, is the best gift you can give. So many dogs like this one do not have happy endings at all, and it's sad because 9 times out of 10 it is entirely the fault of their owners.


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## Sena Hansler

I won't euthanise. If he can't get a home, he stays, and we'll have to budget for whatever the dog needs. Euthanasia is not an option to me unless the dog/animal is aggressive and it cannot be reversed or is dangerous to children, the dog is in severe pain or has a brain problem such as a tumor, or such high problems. Even with my fish - old, sickly, "dying", I give them a chance, why wouldn't I give a dog a chance? Same with guineas. Ginger would've been euthanised. Shaggy would've been euthanised. 

Talk about brain problems - I do wonder if there was some damage considering he used to be tossed about like a sack of flour?

His anxiety isn't EXTREME as I've seen in other dogs, but I am renting and peeing/pooping on the carpet is a no no. We have to put him in the crate upstairs, for bedtime now, because I won't move the crate back and forth, down and up the stairs :lol: he learned to stick his but to the edge, or pee OUTSIDE the kennel -facepalm- so he DOES have a concience of "eew sitting in my watse is nasty."

He listens when I tell him to stop pacing. All I have to say now is, "lay down" or "stop pacing" and he lays beneath my chair or with Dean. He sits without command when I put down food, or treats, and he no longer bolts out the door (thank god -.-). It's not like he's an unruly, incapable dog that's brain dead :lol: But the peeing/pooping HAS to stop! My landlord will be VERY upset with us.


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## Sena Hansler

*double posting my own thread*

The diagram is of the upstairs in my house. The red lines is the pacing area he does.... two different ways of course. The one into the kitchen is the one he does the most. The orange "!" is where he's peed/pooped. And that...is why he is crated. But like I said the little fluff rat sticks his bum out and poops OUTSIDE the kennel :roll: I think we need a closed kennel for that problem. Getting him to know it's not okay to poop in a kennel (or outside of it while being in it!) since he obviously knows it's nasty to sit in your own waste.

The stairs I will be adding a baby gate infront of. Hopefully he isn't dumb enough to hop over it DOWN the stairs! If he is well.....errr.... ?

Might use a baby gate or such methods for the (viewing right) entrance to the kitchen by the pantry. Not sure about the other side. It's easier when I am NOT here too, and Dean is home since Dean could care less if the dog paces.

Anyways, the babygate for the stairs helps the defecating downstairs. (which now I have to clean AGAIN) keeps him out of the bathroom garbage and not drinking from my fish tanks :roll:


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## LittleBettaFish

As you said you are renting if the going indoors doesn't stop, are you willing to be evicted and have to find somewhere to live that will permit a dog to make a mess all over the flooring to keep him? 

While it's nice to say that every animal deserves a second chance and should have a loving home, sometimes reality gets in the way. Knowing first-hand how much damage an animal going inside can cause long-term it is within your landlord's rights to make you get rid of the dog. Unless you own your own house, you might not have a choice as to whether he stays or goes. 

I only mentioned euthanasia as I would hate to see you be forced to get rid of him by the landlord, and then for him to be handballed from home to home before ending up at a shelter. It takes a very tolerant owner to put up with ruined flooring and a dog his age that is still not completely toilet-trained.


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## Sena Hansler

He'd stay in the family. If he wasn't able to get a home, parts of my family and my boyfriend's will take him.


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## Laki

Valerian root is effective!! It puts them to nappies. Be FOREWARNED they smell like bums, not even exaggeration. I used to have to jam a melatonin pill down my dog's throat but he'd eat the valerian @[email protected]' Together, the 2 herbs calmed my dog's anxiety for a while. 

There's also a product called Rescue Remedy. The dosage for a 10-15 lb dog is like 3 drops.. I gave a whole syringe and sometimes more to my dog without adverse reaction, we just needed a higher dose.  

Good luck!


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## Sena Hansler

I've hear dof rescue remedy and found it online... I'd have to look up more about it 

Lol valerian smells like bums. Delightful xD


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## Laki

Not even kidding. It's gross!! lol But effective. I used all 3 "meds" on my dog. If your dog has less anxiety than mine did, you should be fine!


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## Sena Hansler

haha great.

Well, the chamomile doesn't do anything. Or if it does, it is very minimal. So we'll try homemade essential oils next!


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## Olympia

Hmm by home made I assume you mean home made. :lol:
It's impossible to extract essential oils at home, you have to work with the whole plant.
Anyways, you will need, vegetable oil (that is dog friendly), the dried herb, a double boiler (aka a pot of water with a small pot of herb and oil on top), and some dark bottles (or bottles kept in a dark place).

Are you going to be rubbing it around his face or making him eat it?


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## Sena Hansler

Probably work with external before internal.


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## Shirleythebetta

I'm going to subscribe because I want to know if this works. I have a doggy (bassett/beagle) who has anxiety. She has lived in at least four homes and doesn't understand that this is her forever home yet. Paces and freaks when we leave or crys when she is outside on the lead with me and can't reach me. It would be nice if oils work. She is a hound though so I can't stick something strong smelling on her or she will have a sneeze fit and I will have slobbers everywhere.


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## Sena Hansler

hey a basset/beagle! That's my dad's dog.

I find beagles and bassets both are prone to that anxiety, which is really bad. Jewelz, was pregnant, put in the SPCA, her babies taken and she was spayed all in three days. Imagine how that would feel! We were recommended to try ST John's Wort on her :/ or a heavy duty drug the vets give  but for the vet drugs they can only have it for a certain time, it makes them like zombies, and can cause long term damage -.- 

Your doggy though, may not be as bad as Jewelz xD She's destroyed a kennel by trying to escape (and almost did three times), plus broke her teeth on the doorknobs, destroyed the screen door, put some dents here and there AND chewed the base-board and framing ><


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## shadowpony

All these poor dogies... I hate how people dont cater to their dogs needs. Anyone who has rescued a dog has my thanks. It's nice to know there are sane people in the world.


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: sane?! Oh...right >.>


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## Ramble

Well, it's good to see you're working with such a challenging dog (and a cutie!), as a lot of folks would have bailed by now. 
Did I see that your dog is unneutered? If so, neutering could calm him down and help with the peeing at least. Dogs need to feel someone is in control, and if he came from a really stressful owner, he may just be trying to find that control in constant vigilance (pacing), whining for attention, and peeing (both marking and nerves) . Neutering will help some of that, and obedience training to build confidence will also make him feel safer, as it shows him you are in control of the 'pack' and will watch out for him. If you can find a basic class, at a local park or school, that's a great start.
As for doggie chiropractic, my chihuahua has gone, and it worked wonders for his back. Check with vet colleges and chiropractic schools. A lot of them have low-cost or even free treatments in a learning environment, and your dog gets to see that not all people are jerks...
It doesn't sound like anything more than stress, but you could always get the little guy in to check a urinalysis and stool sample just to make sure it's not something medical going on- if the other owners didn't care for him well, he could have some quirks in there. Sounds like you're working hard, though. If you can get the bf on the same page as you, your dog will calm as well, as he won't be picking up on the stress between you and the bf...


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## Sena Hansler

Oh yeah, we were talking about that. Once we can nueter him it should help with marking - therefore the peeing!!!

I've been making him sit and leave out the door after I do, not first. And sitting before he eats, and only eats when I say so. He hasn't gotten people food however he has gotten raw meat mixed with his food as it is good for them 

The stress has been better in the household, mainly because for me it's money worries. Since I make....always under 700 (usually 600-650) which is barely scraping by, and my bf makes a lot more - even his mother has pointed out we can't do the "50/50" for this situation :roll: So some things are changing.

He hasn't peed in the house, but I hate the paranoia. I will get a baby gate for the stairs though, so it's less of a worry to always watch him!! He's done less pacing, and I usually only have to make a sound when he starts pacing and he stops immediately. 

I am also getting a REAL leash, not the retractable, to help with teaching to STAY, HEEL, and obviously not run away. He isn't bad. Other than the running away part :roll: For dogs that can't be off leash, I keep a leash on them and sometimes get to a point they can wander with the leash on without me holding it =D


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## Gen2387

I'm a veterinary nurse so I can probably help you a little.

Potty training is very important. When you catch him in the act (of pooping or peeing inside) you have to tell him NO and put him outside. Don't reprimend him if you haven't seen him in the act because the dog won't make the connection in his head even if you put him in front of the feces or pee. 
He obviously suffers from separation anxiety. I have a dog who had anxiety problems when there was storms and I bought her a Thundershirt ( http://www.thundershirt.com/ ) . It works fantastically. I would also seriously recommend seeing a dog specialist to help with the training. If you bring back a balance in his life by making him learn basic commands and training and that he learns you are ''the leader'' it always helps with behavior problems.

The important thing is to not coddle him when he has an anxiety phase (pacing, shaking, crying) because if you do, it only reinforces the behavior. It's like you're telling him that ''it's okay to be anxious and scared''.

Hope I helped a little.
Sorry for my english. Lol! I'm french so I hope everything made sense.


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## Sena Hansler

Yes it made sense lol. 

I never "cuddle" or baby him when he does such things, nor use the "shove the dog's head into the poo/pee" methods, because they don't work  He's gotten better, I haven't found an "accident" anywhere, which is good.


I will definitely look into getting a thundershirt.


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## Aus

Sena, one day you'll look back on this and laugh.. :lol:

I adopted an 9-month kelpie who'd been raised in a tiny flat.. he was never walked or played with, didn't know what a ball was. Wouldn't go outside by himself, even though we left the door open all day and encouraged him, put his food outside.. Daughter and I had to coax him out to play - then teach him how to play. He had severe separation anxiety due to being left in the flat all day alone and ruined four or five pairs of curtains (the windows were his focus, which was a worry) and couldn't leave him in the yard for even a moment without him vaulting our 6-foot fences. Once he was confident to go outside alone, he figured out how to work the door handles by himself and would sneak out to follow Daughter to school.. He tracked her right to her class one day and bounded in, sat at her side, then dropped and stayed, like a good dog! :lol: He was popular with the other kids, if not the teacher.. He also followed me to the supermarket a few times, trotting down the canned goods aisle all pleased with himself .. "there you are!"

I used to walk in and out of the house a lot... Kelpies are incredibly smart and quick to pick things up (and then innovate! on those things.. gotta watch that.. like the door handles.. ) so it didn't take him long to work out that he was no longer going to be left alone for 12 hrs a day.. we were always going to come home/come back to him. He had his own version of pacing which was this creepy fixation with staring out of the windows. He'd stand there all day if we let him.. shaking and whining. Breaking the fixation was the hardest thing.. until we figured out he liked the TV a lot, and would call him over to watch it with us every time we caught him staring.. then it was ball games. Anything to break that habit, which seemed some sort of 'key' to his anxiety habits - once we weaned him off that, suddenly there no more ruined curtains. Maybe the pooing/peeing and pacing are linked like that..stop the pacing, the pooing may follow!

Lots of his 'play' time with us was taken up by basic training (he didn't know anything at first) but Daughter taught him many tricks on top of that and he couldn't get enough of that kind of 'play' - it really was win/win. He had fun, we got a dog with good manners. We eventually replaced voice commands with hands signals so he'd pay closer attention to us and we weren't shouting across the yard - this worked wonderfully. 

We worked so hard to undo all the damage - and then had to leave our house, had trouble finding a new place and in the end couldn't take him with us. He was rehomed with a deaf person who was eager for a companion dog. Being an intense working breed, he loved having little 'jobs' to do (he carried my peg basket while I did the laundry, lol!) so being retrained a 'hearing dog' was right up his alley. 

To this day we miss him horribly.. all those months and months of problems seem like nothing compared to what he gave us, all that love and eagerness to work us out, as we tried to work him out.. and all the ruined curtains were worth it. 

Sorry for the ramble, but we had such great success with our dog, I felt I had to share.

Good luck with this little guy. I'll be reading his progress..


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## Sena Hansler

Thanks 

Well I figured out how to get him to eat... and why he WON'T eat. He is AFRAID to eat! Can you believe it?? A natural thing to do, that is survival, and he is afraid?? I have to pet him and praise him when he eats or merely sniffs something edible.

He finally ate a treat yesterday... I got him a rawhide jerky strip thing... He sniffed it, I patted his back and head, he licked it, I did it again, he took it, I praised him as well. He finished it.

I did order the Thundershirt, he cost me 40.00 x.x darn small x-small size D: LOL. 

Also I need to get him to gain weight. His hips are so bloody bony. I think he would do good being fatter xD Just... getting him to eat... :roll:

Also I intend to tie a toy onto his collar (or halter if I get one) and take them on walks with us with the squeaker in it.


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## Laki

lol Aus! Your dog sounded amazing!! I trained my dog hand signals too but for the purpose ahead of time for when he lost his hearing I didn't want him to feel (the dog equivilant of) disappointed that he couldn't hear commands. My dog also loved to please. I know you miss your kelpie but think that you guys set him up to be a great service dog which gave him a job and helped out his new owner and that's one od the greatest things you can do 
Sena, to fatten him up would it be proper to mix puppy food in with his adult food? Unfortunately, you might be encouraging the anxiety of being afraid of food by hand feeding him. [I had a period with my dog where he wouldn't eat out of his bowl unless each individual piece was thrown down the hall] Maybe add some gravy - careful of sodium! - or tuna juice to his food so he will eat more. 
I think his "fear" of eating might come from environmental factors. Maybe put him in the bathroom with the door closed and (if he needs someone with him) sit with him on the toilet but do not ackowledge he's there. Just read a book or do something and ignore him until he eats. After he's done eating praise him! he'll soon learn that eating = good attention. 
Some additives for food; apple cider vinegar (with "mother"), plain yogurt, brown rice (though I never had a problem with white- it's just unnecessary starch and carbs), dog gravy or diluted low sodium reg gravy, garlic powder, low sodium diluted chicken/beef broth, wet canned food. . Those are the only ones I can think of right now.


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## Sena Hansler

I got him to hand feed at first, then put my hand to the bowl and commanded "go ahead" and he eats out of his bowl now :3

Thanks for the additive ideas!!! I did get im some doggy mush... xD It's fish with ground bone, that has other "good stuff" in it, which is supposed to be good for dogs. He refused it obviously so I mixed it between his food, and now he eats it. For 9 dollars I got like... a month's worth of fish mush for the dog


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