# Excaliber Tail... Bad Breeding or Rare?



## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1295115266

Discuss.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

it looks....... odd. o.0 the fish herself is beautiful and very cute. that...... thing on her tail looks funny.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

I thought she had very beautiful color. It's just... Her tail.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well there is nothing wrong with her if you just going to keep her as a pet, but if your breeding that would be a major flaw that would not be overlooked. My opinion is that she is beautiful and very nice with the tail, but the tail should not be bred for.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i adore her. the more i look at her, the more i love her colors. x-X what ARE those colors? i just don't like the price. :< $100 for an un-breedable betta? well..... >.> you COULD breed her, but the fry would just be pets, and not cover the cost of the mother. :/


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Another marketing ploy intended to dupe the consumer who isn't educated well enough about Betta form and finnage to know any better.

And for those who are thinking it, no... that is not a spade tail. 

I'm not sure that just the extended ray is enough to qualify her as not worthy of being bred but I would sure cull out any fry with the same mutation. I would think that the extended ray is a random mutation or possibly recessive so theirs a low likelihood of it being passed down to the fry.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i think i found her brother:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1295156405

she's a Salamander Dragon, then? o3o


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow he is beautiful!


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## PewPewPew (Nov 26, 2010)

lmao! How funny, I saw her too and thought the exact same!
Shes a pretty girl, but for an odd tail and a huge price tag...err..
no.


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## shinybetta (Jul 3, 2010)

I don't get why it shouldn't be bred for. I like how it looks, and if it doesn't interfere with her swimming, you could start a new tail type. Why is a crowntail, halfmoon, or veiltale any different than this? They were all formed because of a genetic mutation either directly or indirectly.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Because (and I'm almost positive on this point). It would not breed true. It's a random mutation and crossed with a correct mail (the one Lui posted for example) you would probably not get one single fry with the deformity.

Very few people realize just how much work starting a new tail type is. The Betta community can be very unwilling to change. It took a long time before HM was considered beautiful. They came up when deltas were poplular and no one liked HMs except a select few. If you really want to start a new tail type you have to be willing to send your fish to show, a lot of shows, and be prepared to be laughed at. But above all that... first you have to get the tail to breed true... that is probably the hardest part and without a basic understanding of genetics and genetics of bettas specifically... its just not gonna happen.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

That one male is absolutely stunning.

And I do think she's a beautiful fish too. If I had the money, I'd take her, since I don't breed.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i adore her colors. i'd get her, just for those! no other salamanders on AB look like her, except her brother, but even then, he's no where near as pretty as her. <3


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## HayrideHaunter (Dec 20, 2010)

is the posting gone? the link brings me to a page of aquabid listings, not the specific one o.o


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## Littlebittyfish (Jan 5, 2011)

HayrideHaunter said:


> is the posting gone? the link brings me to a page of aquabid listings, not the specific one o.o



This for me too, i'm curious what everyone is talking about now. :lol:


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## HayrideHaunter (Dec 20, 2010)

Yeah I'd like to see what its all about...maybe someone saved the picture or something...?


EDIT: found it! Littlebittyfish, go to aquabid and search "Excaliber"...not excalibur...in "all categories"...only one that comes up.

Wow...that is rather odd...I do think she's a pretty little girl...I do agree that shes not a breeder though and should be a pet...kills me, breeders hiking up the prices for mutations =(...its sad because she may not get a loving home for it..but may instead end up with a breeder that isnt sure what theyre doing...


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## Littlebittyfish (Jan 5, 2011)

gorgeous! the price though!?:shock: Is it just me or does the poor little fish look a bit bloated?:|


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i've heard they feed them extra for the photos. :d so, that may be it.


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## Ajones108 (Jul 7, 2010)

I just found this wild-type betta has the same type tail as that girl does.
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettas&1295626068


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## HayrideHaunter (Dec 20, 2010)

^thats a nifty looking betta...I like it better than the girl (as far as the shape of the tail)...still not sure whether or not i should be skeptical about it though...


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Actually it's different than the splendens female you originally posted.

If you notice the Rubra caudal fin doesn't just jut out from one ray but tapers to a point, so the rays naturally get longer until they reach the point.

The splendens however had nice fins except for one single ray that jutted out from the caudal edge.

And in case anyone is wondering, rubra are mouth brooders and cannot be crossed with splendens so there is no chance of a "hybrid" in this case.


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## BettaJ (Nov 18, 2010)

well hey, if someone here truly was on the path of trying to create a new tail type... i say:

I support u.

-but in this case, it looks like a mutation that may not be passed on. but then again, who knows. if you have $100 to blow on it, then do let us know if they breed true. i mean, even to this day, HM don't breed true. 

i have seen some "diamond eye" bettas. where the entire eyes are covered by the dragon scales, and the betta's is blind. now that's cruel to breed.
i think this Excalibur tail here is fine.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

HM does breed true. Given the right parents (i.e. both with 180* spread) almost all the fry will have the potential to go HM. The problem with HM is unless they flare they won't get the desired spread even if they have good branching.


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## BettaJ (Nov 18, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> HM does breed true. Given the right parents (i.e. both with 180* spread) almost all the fry will have the potential to go HM. The problem with HM is unless they flare they won't get the desired spread even if they have good branching.


IME, i get about 20% true 180 spread (HM) from a HM x HM cross. the rest are super deltas and others. but i think its a lot higher with HMPK though.

but other tails like VT and CT will yield 100% from homogeneous parents.


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

Well with the HMs,it also depends on the line. Karen Mac Auley's multi HM line, for example, produces most if not all HMs in each spawn.


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## FuulieQ (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't understand the opposition to breeding her. It's not a fatal defect, doesn't effect her quality of life, and looks pretty cool in my opinion. 

It's weird to me how whenever a new mutation pops up everyone freaks out and says they'd cull that fish, but all bettas are heavily mutated... that's just what happens, if you breed HMs then you're breeding a mutation just like this one. The only difference is that people LIKE that mutation and have accepted it as a "trait".


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## HayrideHaunter (Dec 20, 2010)

FuulieQ said:


> I don't understand the opposition to breeding her. It's not a fatal defect, doesn't effect her quality of life, and looks pretty cool in my opinion.
> 
> It's weird to me how whenever a new mutation pops up everyone freaks out and says they'd cull that fish, but all bettas are heavily mutated... that's just what happens, if you breed HMs then you're breeding a mutation just like this one. The only difference is that people LIKE that mutation and have accepted it as a "trait".


well, some people here DO like the excaliber tail. I think the mutations people freak out on are the really severe ones, like blind bettas, ones without tails, ones with grotesquely shortened bodies which in many says cant be too good for them), and "big ears" which, while it looks rather pretty I'll admit, makes it more difficult to swim, because the pectorals are the most functional fins of a betta.


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## Sanka101 (Feb 3, 2011)

Can someone just post picture on here instead of links as i cant find any of these pictures your talking about.. thanks =]


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

she's a very cute betta. i adore her colors so much. but, i think people are just sick of breeders overpricing defects that, more often than not, ARE fatal, or aren't something people should be passing on. issue with this girl is, people aren't sure if it's just a funky ray that grew that way, or an actual mutation.


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## FuulieQ (Jan 10, 2010)

HayrideHaunter said:


> well, some people here DO like the excaliber tail. I think the mutations people freak out on are the really severe ones, like blind bettas, ones without tails, ones with grotesquely shortened bodies which in many says cant be too good for them), and "big ears" which, while it looks rather pretty I'll admit, makes it more difficult to swim, because the pectorals are the most functional fins of a betta.


Yes, I understand that, I just think that this mutation is really trivial to the fish's health. People seem to have really negative reactions to it that I think are disproportionate to the situation. :/


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## HayrideHaunter (Dec 20, 2010)

FuulieQ said:


> Yes, I understand that, I just think that this mutation is really trivial to the fish's health. People seem to have really negative reactions to it that I think are disproportionate to the situation. :/


okay, I'll agree there...but honestly I'm not sure all the anger or frustration on this thread is directed specifically at the excaliber tail, its a general anger at, like i said, mutations.


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