# not sure what this is? maybe pop-eye?



## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

1st thing: my little dragon scale betta, Charlie, that I have had for about 6 months now, has a weird white growth area on him. At first I thought it was fungus but realized it didn't look fuzzy, but rather hard. It's like the scales doubled up on themselves or something. It started off as a small speck and has been slowly spreading on his right side. He doesn't show any change in activity, still his usual active little self. I know I read somewhere that it is possible for dragon scales to get tumors. I seriously hope that is not the case!  

2nd thing: I also read that they can develop a kind of coloring on their eyes. His left eye is partially covered by the same silvery coloring as the rest of his body. However, just today I noticed that the same eye seems a little larger than the other. Could it be pop-eye? Again, I hope not!
























Here are some pics. It was hard for me to get one since he always seems to move when I try to capture it.

Anybody have any ideas on what this is and how I can treat it? I want Charlie to live a long happy life. so far, he has still been making his bubbles and looks a little agitated when I change his water and pretty much destroy them and he has to start over :/ aww.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

He could have scaling over his eye, beginning. It's common for dragonscales I find. As for the "tumor" possibility, any betta can get tumors. Just watch it... There'sno fuzz, so it isn't fungal. If it IS a tumor there are a good number of people on here who have had tumor bettas, including me  here is a picture of my guy. The dark blue bubbled area was his tumor.

Does it look kinda like that? with the "raised" or uneven scaling, bubbled or "swollen"?


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

About the eye: when I look at him from the top, the assumed affected eye looks a little more bulgy. from the front, it also looks a little more round than the other. I'm not sure of that could exactly be scaling making it bubbly looking. Thinking I should get some medicine for it tomorrow.

What I think is a tumor does look raised and uneven looking. It's a brighter white compared the silvery coloring of the rest of his body. It's like a lumpy, fused scale looking blob. Almost as if the scales kept growing over themselves and thickening.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's about right for the tumor... 

What size of tank and how often is it cleaned, how much is it cleaned, and is it cycled...?


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

with a tumor, more often than not, you can't get rid of it. i HAVE heard of people getting rid of them with medication, but i can't for the life of me remember HOW....


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> That's about right for the tumor...
> 
> What size of tank and how often is it cleaned, how much is it cleaned, and is it cycled...?


size of tank: 2.5 G
at least 50% water change once a week
I dont think a tank my size can even be cycled :/


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hmm okay, just checking  and nope it "could" be cycled, but it would be terribly unstable.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Luimeril said:


> with a tumor, more often than not, you can't get rid of it. i HAVE heard of people getting rid of them with medication, but i can't for the life of me remember HOW....


what did they give them, chemo?


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

any particular medicine(s) recommended for pop-eye?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

maracyn 2 works well, I've used it...


or, a non-med like method is with epsom salt. pre-dissolve 1-3 teaspoons, clean the water every day, and re-add the salt you removed


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Additionally, his white tumor coloring is taking over his fin on that side. Instead of being clear looking, the fin is thick white. Hopefully it won't affect his swimming. Right now he's ok with it.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

OK, I got Maracyn 2 and gave the required dose over 5 days for the pop-eye. the last dose was yesterday. to be frank, I really don't see that much of a difference between his eye before and after the medication. it may be _slightly_ smaller, but not that much to tell. IDK what else to do right now. He's still eating and swimming pretty normally, although his fins looked kinda clamped a few minutes ago.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hmmm, so we can rule out popeye if there is no difference. There should've been some difference... the "popeye" look diminishing, or "deflating"


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

IDK what it could be then. The clamped must have been him just resting because I am looking at him now and he's doing his normal activity. well, the fins alternate between clamped and flaring. he's lying at the bottom of the tank, though...thank goodness. 
please forgive me if I did this wrong, but am I supposed to also do partial water changes while he us taking the medication? I did not do that.  could that have something to do the effectiveness of the medication?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I usually follow directions on the packaging. For example, double whammy for my new angels (previously owned) They got ich, so I have a med that says every day water change, and then they got hit by columnaris and THAT med says 48 hours dose, and then 48 hours later water change x.x So I follow the more serious one's directions (columnaris), then the least bad.

So, it is over one eye? Usually for one-eye popeye or cloudiness, it would be from an impact... But, since it may not be popeye considering it does usually go down on it's own a little too (I've dealt with it  )

Can you post a new picture of both sides? I'm thinking it probably is a tumor, and as for the eye, it could be the build up of scales dragonscales seem to get commonly. I don't want you to fret about it though, there's many of us who have dealt with both!


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

The medicine said there was no need to change the water as long as the water stayed within the desired parameters. I don;t have a water test kit so I can't say for sure what the exact measurements of the water is. :/ 

The pop-eye is only in one eye, yes. Here is more recent pictures. I don't see much of a difference. Not sure if I should start a new round of medication or just keep doing 25% water changes and see what that does instead.



































Sena Hansler said:


> I usually follow directions on the packaging. For example, double whammy for my new angels (previously owned) They got ich, so I have a med that says every day water change, and then they got hit by columnaris and THAT med says 48 hours dose, and then 48 hours later water change x.x So I follow the more serious one's directions (columnaris), then the least bad.
> 
> So, it is over one eye? Usually for one-eye popeye or cloudiness, it would be from an impact... But, since it may not be popeye considering it does usually go down on it's own a little too (I've dealt with it  )
> 
> Can you post a new picture of both sides? I'm thinking it probably is a tumor, and as for the eye, it could be the build up of scales dragonscales seem to get commonly. I don't want you to fret about it though, there's many of us who have dealt with both!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hmmm it really does look like popeye... Have you tried epsom salt?

Anyways, for popeye I recommend daily water changes mainly because it keeps away infection which can make the popeye worse.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

No, I haven't tried epsom salt. I pondered about aquarium salt, but wasn't sure if it would be appropriate for the condition.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Aquarium salt would irritate more than help.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

OK. So the epsom salt would help bring out the fluid? And the water changes would just keep it from getting worse? I know some people have said that water changes have sometimes seemed like a miracle cure, but I'm not sure in this case.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

It really isn't a miracle cure, but it helps sooo much. Whenever I got a popeye betta (one female was beaten from another female for example) I did daily water changes, stress coat, good quality and variety foods, and epsom salt 

Now, I had a betta who had a bacterial problem when I bought her... Her eyes were cloudy blue! I did water changes, no meds, and now she is back to full health!


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Not sure I need stress coat, but the epsom salt could be a good idea. 
That's amazing about the betta with the bacterial problem that cleared without any meds! Who would have thought?
I'm glad Charlie's activity level has not really changed and that he has still been making his bubble nests. The pop-eye is unsightly and still worries me. I'm not able to get to the store today to get the epsom salt. Hopefully the water changes will help in the meantime. I still have a lot of Maracyn II left over, but I don't know if he needs another round of antibiotics after it really didn't work the first time.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If it didn't work, I wouldn't bother. But because Maracyn 2 usually does work I would recommend just finding something that is stronger (for instance, I have kanaplex, some people recommend...tetracycline?) as a "just in case"


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

For the Maracyn II, it says to repeat course only once if needed. Where can I find these other medications? And what is the dosage you recommend for the epsom salt?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Fish stores, or even pet stores like petsmart may have them....However ones like Kanaplex are harder to find!!

Epsom salt: up to 3 teaspoons per gallon, dissolved before adding.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

dissolved how? in another batch of water and then add it?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I like to add it when I do a water change  I take out the water from their tank, and with new water (in a bucket) that has conditioner in it, I dissolve the salt, let it sit, then add to the tank.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

oh ok. that sounds good. I'm going to pick up the epsom salt tomorrow and hope that it works. Now it looks like he has some translucent thin flowy looking stuff from the top of his head. I hope it's not fungus. It was not there until after I gave him the medicine.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yikes! Are you able to get a picture of that?


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

I tried to get a picture, but it is so small,thin, and translucent like it makes it hard to see and capture well on camera. It looks like it has gotten smaller since yesterday. Since I can't add a picture, the best way I can describe it is it looking like a think film that came off. It's not too furry, but more filmy like.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Whatever that stuff was apparently is gone now from Charlie. I just don't see it anymore and I hope it's gone for good! 
About how long does the ES take to show any results and how much/how often should I be changing the water? I still don't see a change. This is the second day.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Give it between a week and 10 days... 10 days stop treatment. I recommend daily water changes, that keeps most bacterial problems away.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Yes, I've been doing 25% water changes every day. Should I up that or is 25% fine? After 7-10 days and there is no change, what then? :sigh: I just found out that I need to do 100% water changes everyday with ES too.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Try upping it  at least 50%, to 100%.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

OK, I just added another dose of ES and started the Maracyn II treatment again. Now he is kind of lethargic at the bottom of the tank, breathing a little hard. I used water conditioner when I added the water and added a little bit more to be safe. IDK what could be causing this. He never behaved this way before. Should I do a partial water change to dilute the ES and medicine?


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

I did the partial water change. He's behaving a little bit better now. I decided I'm not going to go through with the Maracyn 2 again since it didn't work the first time. The ES should be working so I'm not sure what I am doing wrong. Am I not dissolving/dosing correctly? This probably sounds like a stupid question, but do you dissolve it well so it works? DO you shake it? I just let it sit for 10 min :/


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I stir my epsom salt, letting it fully dissolve  I don't like it being left as is, in the tank, mainly because with salt it can burn the fishy.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

So that would make it less effective?

And thank you so much for dealing with me and all my questions!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hehe no problem  

Well it would back fire if you didn't dissolve it enough/fully... Because it could stress the fishy out.

Is the bump on his head the same, growing, or lessened? Looking back on the pictures, I will remind you it is very possible for it to be a tumor... Which is okay =D He can live a pretty darn good life lol. Spartan sure did, to the bitter end - after surviving a mystery poisoning.


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

The bump on his head seemed to have lessened a bit. It's still there and I don't think it is going away anytime soon, though. Maybe it is a tumor.  Poor Spartan! That's crazy!

OK, so after 2 weeks the eye hasn't made a change. I'm just about at the end of my rope.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah but Spartan was a trooper xD He finally died from a mild flesh eating bacteria combined with a tumor on his side :/ poor old man.

Well, you may want to look into tumors a bit more...perhaps the tumor is pressing on the eye, causing it to "pop" like popeye...just not with bacteria, but pressure? I dunno xD


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## WiggleSwim (Dec 31, 2011)

Aww, poor guy! (

That's what i thought about the tumor. I was like, maybe there is something going on in the inside? I mean, I tried medicine and epsom salt and neither worked. It's crazy. Pop-eye should not be that difficult to get rid of.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, at this point cease medications. Clean warm water and good food...


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