# Questions



## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

I am so curious I just figured I'd try doing a spawn without any research!



.... JUST KIDDING! bahahah GOTCHYA!

Okay, now that I had my fun I have real questions because I see so many people starting spawn logs and they either know SO MUCH or NOTHING
I want to be apart of the people who researched so much they do very very well, so I'll probably be doing this next summer if I get the chance. 

1) What kind of fins/finspread do you look for in halfmoons ? Obviously I love that big spread like everyone else. What is "desireable" I know excessive branching leads to them being rose tails which no one wants to breed. 

2) What makes a "good pair" do they both have to be similar, or should one compliment or balance the other's shortcomings? 

3) What should a new breeder breed for? 

4) So far I know that bettas from pet stores are a no no simply because "they are a hodge podge of genes" but there are a few "gems". Would you recommend then finding quality stock on AB/ or from new breeders. Where do you find the most luck. 

5) What have you found helps you make the process better? little secrets you have learned, How many hours in a day you would say you give to each spawn?

6) Do you recommend Halfmoons for a first time? or would you say another type would be I guess more noob friendly? LOL 

7) To breed I believe you need spawn tanks, growout tanks, jars, cultures of foods, and to condition the pair. Do you guys have recommendations on what you find works best for your spawns? Where do you find your most reliable sources of supplies? 

Any extra advice, would be greatly appreciated. Again no haste because I was just kidding about jumping in head first, I'm just gathering people's knowledge by experience because I find the experience of others saves a TON of heartache. 

mg: I wrote alot lol I applaud all who read and answer the whole thing! Thanks guys :yourock:


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Anitax3x said:


> I am so curious I just figured I'd try doing a spawn without any research!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Shorter fins. I do not like overly long finned fish. Second I look for straight edges and not too much branching but both should have 4 at least.

2. The fish should make up the faults and, IMO, be similar. Breeding a blue to a red is a no-no for me. So example, my super red HMPK male is a spoon head. The female, a sibling, is a very nice female with a great top line. She compliments him very well. 

3. Something basic. Just rearing some decent fish with maybe a few goals for such a spawn.

4. An IBC breeder will sell you infinitely better fish, cheaper, than aquabid. 

5. Indian almond leaf, clean water, and leaving them alone.

6. Halfmoons... a love hate relationship. Personally I would start with HMPKs just because they're fun, active, and a heck of a lot easier to raise and keep VS long finned and demanding HMs.

7. Walmart and Aquabid xD A couple of clear plastic tubs and mason jars go a long way. I love glass tanks but tubs work just as well.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

THANK YOU. Yeah I love myself a HMPK they are so spunky! hmm IBC breeders, Googling that ! I'm sure I could find some in my area. I see alot of that almond leaf that people use as a spawn inducing agent. 

so the spawning tank is best to be 10 gallons so I've read, and what of the growout tank? how large is that supposed to be? 

Aquabid sells your option of best food? Hmm interesting. I guess I'm so busy oooing and ahhhing at the bettas I neglected the rest of the site! haha!


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Anitax3x said:


> 1) What kind of fins/finspread do you look for in halfmoons ? Obviously I love that big spread like everyone else. What is "desireable" I know excessive branching leads to them being rose tails which no one wants to breed.
> 
> *It really depends on your "Mission Profile", hobbiest, IBC Show? *
> 
> ...


Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you Jeff

I would like to Breed halfmoons, possibly OVER halfmoons, I enjoy the big fins and I do like the Dragon scale variety alot. I read that the true dragon is a silver/white body with different color fins. I just want to breed a great line of quality bettas. I have read on here that most people prefer the progeny of "good genes" So I was thinking of (this is about a year from now mind you) buying 2 pairs from an IBC breeder, of the same spawn. Conditioning them for about 4 weeks (I read no less than 2 weeks) and Trying my luck. I have been keeping fish for about a year now, and I have learned alot, but still have much to learn. I have been going through and researching because I think it would be a good hobby to have as I am in college but I do not work. (yes you could say mommy and daddy help pay for everything but that is to an extent I have tons of scholarships and a loan as well) 

Anyways, I have been finding out more and more about my fish and how to keep them as well. I find it relaxing even though it is hard work. 

I read medication should also be on hand after spawning for the male and female, what types do you all recommend? 


Thanks you guys, I know I sound like I have no idea and its because I have no idea. I just want to start gathering information now. And when I feel like I have the resources and knowledge I'll then move forward. Thanks so much for all of your input I appreciate it!


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Anitax3x said:


> I read medication should also be on hand after spawning for the male and female, what types do you all recommend?


*What would you be medicating them for? Are they sick? Parasites?*

*I have not medicated (other than indian almond leaf) any of my fish so far, as they have no disease.*

*Jeff.*


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

I thnk what anita meant was what do you use to repair any damage to their fins after spawning. Personally I find lots of clean water does the trick, but if it is paticularly severe then I prefer to use aquarium salt as opposed to medications!Good luck!


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Betta is not a salt water fish, why add salt if there is nothing wrong? A pinch of salt in the water to adjust hardness does no harm, but to medicate?

Not for my fish!

IAL on the other hand lowers the PH and helps their slime coat. Better as a preventitave. Salt as a medication is ment to kill parasites like velvet, which is fine if you see velvet, but why weaken the Betta immune system trying to treat something they don't yet have? Kinda like taking chemotherapy when you smoke a cigarette...

Sorry but I'm kinda naturopathic...

Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

ohhh Okay, I was just reading it on betta talk.com that some use meds to treat the ripped fins. But I have yet to use any meds on my fish, I use lots of clean, warm water to treat tattered fins the most I use is epsom salt for constipation and aq salt at the moment for inflamed gills. I get what you are saying, personally because I'm studying to be a doctor, I like the no meds until absolutely necessary path as well because just random doses of antibiotics with no reason behind it is how we have MRSA. 

So for me, I guess it would be good to know where to buy meds just in case, but they aren't truthfully necessary unless illness presents itself. 


What foods would be best for conditioning the soon to be parents? I know live foods but I'm not entirely sure what. And I read that sometimes live foods cause problems such as illness and swim bladder?

Thanks again guys!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I actually never had disease issues when I used salt so I will be using it more now.

IAL is good after spawning. Nitrofuracin and Metronidazole are good to have on hand just in case.


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

As for conditioning food before spawn I would say something fatty and lots of protein like live worms such as blackworms, tubifex or mosquito larva etc. and don't forget to feed them there daily pellets for there nutritional needs because once there in the process of spawning they don't eat much till they are completely healed especially the male he will there much longer to take care his offspring till free swim


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

So you recommend both, how much would you say per day of pellets/live food?

Okay I know for sure IAL, I always have aq salt, and the other meds are antibiotics? Good to have just in case. 

How about getting in contact with good breeders? I was told IBC breeders are best, how do you get in touch with those people?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

www.ibcbettas.org

Yep the other two meds are antibiotics and nitrofuracin is also a general disease preventative. I use it in my shipping bags.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you for that link! Alright, I believe I will buy them to have them just in case. 

Fry food/conditioning food I can find that on AB stated earlier correct?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Fry food yes. Personally I get my BBS eggs through the IBC.

Frozen foods are the best conditioners. Atison pellets (best pellets IMO) can be purchased via the IBC.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

The IBC has great stuff on there! So would frozen brine shrimp be a good source of nutrition for the parents? I get mine frozen in water from petsmart. My fish love them! Okay, And how about a good tutorial on hatching brine shrimp eggs, would I just youtube that. It also says I should have them bought a week or two in advanced to the spawn. How do you like to feed the fry? Alternating between foods is best?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

When I had cultures (they just died on me -__-) I would feed them the worms four or five times a day and BBS once a day. 

Any form of frozen food will do. I, personally, use blood worms.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

I feed the parents frozen brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms. The fry get live microworms and live baby brine shrimp.

Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

hmm okay! Thanks guys, Is there any advice you have? I really would like to breed Halfmoon dragons, I feel like there are people who say it makes no difference, do what you like, or stay away from big finned fish. 

Naturally I'd love to do Halfmoon dragons as I enjoy the fish, However what are the Pros/cons of dealing with this particular subset of bettas?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

If you want to breed dragon HMs thats fine but HM fins are demanding.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

How so?


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

I have read this from:
http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=773

And my own personal experience with Halfmoons is that they need more space or more than usual water changes or their fins deteriorate, also they cannot tolerate much of any current or it shreds their fins. In my case here in Florida I have to use R/O water because my tap water is not only at 7.6, it is very, very hard and it seems to be awful for their fins. With the boys I have been using IAL and salt in their tanks as a preventative against disease (Especially since I read the thread about the mystery disease that is sweeping through blue bettas)
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=90086

(The CT male I had needed soft water and a gentle current to keep his rays from deteriorating as well.) 

Also, I did not have this problem with my spawn of HM but because of the boys large fins they could be a big target for infections if they are bitten by the females.

Two of my HM boys are chronic tail biters and I have been trying to figure out what is causing it, for the time they have stopped munching on their caudals' but out of the blue I come home and its back into shreds so its a constant battle. 

Like I said, these are my own experiences with owning Halfmoons and someone else's experiences might be completely different. To summarize my entire point, Halfmoon's require pristine water, more so than other tailtypes or they are more susceptible to the deterioration of their health and finnage. It is very demanding but as you have seen the rewards of seeing a Halfmoon in full flare are completely worth it ;-).

EDIT: Forgot to add this in but HM males will blow their fins when flaring if you allow them to do it for too long if they are aggressive about it so you have to be careful about this to!


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Wow thank you! I have 1 HM male, and oddly enough (even though he is from petco) he is one of my most calm, relaxed and fastest/strongest swimmers. He for whatever reason likes current abd builds bubble nests near my filter. He is in a 10 gal tank with 4 albino cories and 1 adf with live anacharis, green+purple cabomba,a 15 gal fluval filter, java fern and a mossball. He's super active and loves patrolling the tank. I am in south florida. and I used to have a couple tail biters, however they passed strangely for no reason. :-( they were 1 hm, 1dbt and 1 hmpk. 

I had them for a long time, but they randomly deteriorated, stopped eating, lost color, and died. 

My current males are
1 HM in my 10 gal community
1 hmpk in a 2.5 gal heated and filtered
1hmpk dragon in a 2 gal in my bathroom that isnt heated or filtered because my upstairs bathroom is disgustingly hot all year round
1 Super delta male that looks not to be a "true" dragon, but he does show dragon scaling. Currently in QT as I bought him last week.
and
1 petco King male that was sulking with his sad face in a tiny cup, so naturally I took him home, and with some TLC he has healed the tear in his fin, and loves flaring at himself. He is also in QT 

I have two store bought females that look GORGEOUS, and I used to have a sorority, but after about 8-9 months up and running, my two current females went on a killing rampage and overnight murdered my 8 other girls and all but 1 albino corydora. YIKES

Enough with the rant about my fish LOL 
Well I guess I was seeing how you find them demanding in breeding, Naturally They are super picky about being in certain tanks, MY only current HM has been very versatile as he flourished in a divided tank, and is king of the castle in his 10 gal eating like a pig and never sitting still 

Would any of you recommend IAL for normal tank life? Is it safe to use in my other tanks just for better quality of life? 

Sincerely your AVI male is stunning, absolutely stunning, I saw your thread and I'm sorry you lost him. Wow.

Thank you for the links! and I agree, some of these betta's are very very picky about their conditions! Isn't it funny how they are advertised as low maintenance fish? WHAT A JOKE!


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Thank you for your comment on Bartleby :-D I miss him very much and the other bettas I lost because of that outbreak.

IAL is good for promoting the general health of bettas, it releases tannin's into the water which help to toughen scales and lowers the pH of water so it is more acidic (I use only a small amount because I already have R/O water and because of that my pH is around 6.5) The higher pH you have the more IAL you need to use to get the same effect as if you have lower a lower pH water. If you use it in a community tank be sure the rest of your community members (Including plants, in your case you seem to be fine ;-)) can tolerate lower pH. The darker water also make the bettas feel more at home since they come from murky water puddles and streams.

You can also boil down the tannin's from the leaves into a extract so you can add a few drops of that and get the same effect as if you added leaves.

-Sincerely


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

So you think the cory catfish and the adfs wouldnt mind the extract? Wow that seems to be really a great additive for my tanks. I heard oak leaves are good too is that true? I saw on IBC you can actually get the leaves, I think I may be doing that. I don't mind if my water looks a bit darker either  Thank you for your help you guys, if anyone has any suggestions please please post! the more information the better!


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Cory's don't mind acidic water, I am not sure about ADF's but I believe they should be fine. Oak leaves have the same effect but you need to use more than IAL to get the amount of tannin's.

-Sincerely


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Oh! okay, Well then it makes more sense to use IAL!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

1) What kind of fins/finspread do you look for in halfmoons ? Obviously I love that big spread like everyone else. What is "desireable" I know excessive branching leads to them being rose tails which no one wants to breed. 

Straight thick rays with equal branching and webbing, smooth outer edges, pointy caudal edges, balanced/equal lengths of all fins, overlapping fins (not rays)
 
2) What makes a "good pair" do they both have to be similar, or should one compliment or balance the other's shortcomings? 

Depend on goal - similar meaning the same fin type; mostly yes. But when attempting to improve certain trait, mix breeding fin types is advised. Compliment meaning one should improve the other

Similar meaning color compatibility - like not mixing red to an iridescence or breeding dragon to dragon. Compliment meaning colors like cambodian carry NR or blond genes thus used to crate white, yellow, bright red.
 
3) What should a new breeder breed for? 

Average quality fins (any type) to understand breeding, raising fry, and general genetics. Then work yourself towards better quality.

4) So far I know that bettas from* pet stores are a no no* simply because "they are a hodge podge of genes" but there are a few "gems". Would you recommend then finding quality stock on AB/ or from new breeders. Where do you find the most luck. 

IMO, not necessarily. As long as you know what to look for, you can work with pet store specimens. The only problem with pet store is not knowing their genetic background thus will often give surprising outcomes - mainly color wise. Besides, most AB are pet store quality.

5) What have you found helps you make the process better? little secrets you have learned, How many hours in a day you would say you give to each spawn?

Your creativity. Each pair may act differently, in fact one male may act differently during each spawn. It's up to your creativity to manipulate the more difficult breeders. Eg. Some spawn better in bare tanks while others in heavily planted. Some prefer/needs small breeding tanks while others prefer space. Some may have to be artificially hatched.

The most time consuming is changing water, which may take an hour or more. Feeding takes me less than a minute. But once fry are in solitary jars, it can take an hour to change water of every single jar.
 
6) Do you recommend Halfmoons for a first time? or would you say another type would be I guess more noob friendly? LOL 

PK should be the easiest to raise and maintain. But if you have kept HM and can maintain their health and fins, they're fine to breed. But more work will be needed - they need more water changes and you have to jar them early (if you're going for shows) and exercise (flare) regularly so they can fully develop their fin spread. Unless you understand water chemistry better, don't breed CT because they need more specific water.

7) To breed I believe you need spawn tanks, growout tanks, jars, cultures of foods, and to condition the pair. Do you guys have recommendations on what you find works best for your spawns? Where do you find your most reliable sources of supplies? 

Avoid constant wormy food for the female. If she gets too fat, her egg passage might be blocked. A mixture of worms and pellets should work. Or feed shrimp like food - daphnia, mosq. larva, or others

Any extra advice, would be greatly appreciated. Again no haste because I was just kidding about jumping in head first, I'm just gathering people's knowledge by experience because I find the experience of others saves a TON of heartache.

IAL may help during (creates a more natural environment) and after spawning (reduces stress from spawning). 

I NEVER use new clean water for spawning. It makes fry weak. I always condition my water, allow micro critters grow in them. The longer I age my water the better - and fry grows faster and makes it easier to feed bigger foods like daphnia.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you indjo! That was very helpful! I will keep this in mind! So far I would like to strive for HM, I love dragons but I'm not entirely sure I want to do that just yet, I may want to do a color, I love white betas would that be a difficult endeavor?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

White, Yellow, orange, and bright red are colors that usually don't breed true .... at least I have never experienced nor seen it (reds may breed true but their color may fade). All the above color is from the same line of color/breeding - the first 3 has NR genes and the last has blond. They are very recessive.

IMO it's easier to work with dragons (above color) - dragons are double metallic so you get more possibilities (white opaque - non metallic), white platinum/gold - metallic), and dragon (double metallic). And color blending in dragons seem different to regulars - can't explain at this point, but it is easier.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Ohhh okay that is good to know. What about blacks and greens?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

There are 3 kinds of black - lace, melano, and marble, each has its pros and cons. Lace looks really dark black (except for the fins) but it has too much irid - specially today's lace; IMO it's actually a muti black.

Melano often (not always) has a duller black but more intense spread - meaning there should be little to no irid. Unfortunately the females are mostly infertile thus the males are often crossed to steel blue - giving irid layer to the body, they often look blue-black on different light angles.

Marble blacks IMO are the true black - very dark black color. Unfortunately marbles makes them unpredictable. Some may change into a non black color. But with constant breeding, they will breed true, giving you a majority of black fry. The lesser quality of black contains some irid, specially on the fins. And for some reason show quality "super black" is very rare. For some reason they tend to be mostly pet store quality (if it matters to you).

There is a black dragon. But I'm not sure which black this goes into. Some say they, plus marble genes created the super black but I have yet to see such out comes. So I simply got me a pair of super black to work with.

Green IMO is a very common color often crossed to metallics (I don't understand why people in the US say they're rare). It is closely related to the copper - if you cross a copper, you will get some greens, but NOT vise versa. The hardest part of working with irid colors is maintaining solidness - totally (except the head) green/irid color. You will most probably get some red on them at least on the ventrals. If you love dragons, working with green dragons would be fun. But you won't find white/silver bodied irid colored dragons. For some reason irid colors tend to cover the whole body and fin.

BTW, irid colors are dominant. Black is recessive.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Okay. Hmm green dragons would be fun! Thanks for the info! I didn't know black was recessive!


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