# "Betta Sulk" AGAIN



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

The only disease I have had w/my bettas is "sulk": that is, they become lethargic, retreat to the bottom of the tank and refuse to eat; absolutely no other symptoms. While most recover, I lost one fish 5 weeks ago. She was fine but was staying at the bottom of the tank. The next day, she was dead & being ripped apart. Now, Flake, my gorgeous white HM, has come down with it. She didn't come to breakfast this morning. She was simply sitting on the bottom back of the tank, occasionally coming up for air. I pulled her immediately. She's sitting in a heated "Critter Keeper" (she doesn't have to go far for air). I've put in some Stress Zyme & Betta Spa.
Any other treatments would be GREATLY appreciated; she's one of my favs.

Housing 
What size is your tank? 29 Gal
What temperature is your tank? 80ish
Does your tank have a filter? Yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? Yes
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? 8 female bettas & 1 otto catfish; a few ramshorm snails. All tank mates are 100%.

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Everything betta (Flake or pellet 1x, treat (live, frozen or freeze dried treat for dinner)
How often do you feed your betta fish? 2x per day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 1x per week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 15%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Prime

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: safe according to liquid kit
Nitrite: safe
Nitrate:safe
pH: 8.2
Hardness:not sure
Alkalinity: not sure

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Not at all
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Sulks @ bottom of tank; refuses food
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Yesterday (Thurs. 3/21/13)
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Isolation tank w/ heater; offered dried daphnia
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No
How old is your fish (approximately)? 6 mos.

P.S, I've had several fish "snap out of it" w/ no treatment, and have lost 3 over January with it. I've torn the tank down 100% after the deaths.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

The Sulk. What a perfect name for it. And it's truly the most frustrating symptom of all because it could be indicative of ANYTHING.

If she looks fine on the outside, then the problem could be inside. It could be internal parasites or a bacterial problem. Until a positive diagnosis can be made, the safest treatment you can try is 1 tsp of epsom salts per gallon and continue with the Betta Spa or another source of tannins. 

If it progresses to medication, we'd most likely need to try a combination of both parasite and antibiotic and since this is a lot of medicine to dump on a fish, it would be best to try the holistic approach first.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Do Epsom salts upset the fish?
She is in one of those medium size "Critter Keepers" w/ her own nano heater. I'd have to mix up a 1 gal container w/ the salts.
How often should I change her salt water? How much Betta Spa would you recommend?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Epsom salts is plain magnesium sulfate and is used in humans as both a sore muscle soak to reduce swelling and as a . . . er, laxative. Because it's not a true salt, longterm usage won't harm her. In this case, I'm hoping that it will help reduce any internal swelling and fluid buildup that may be going on and encourage her system to balance out.

If her critter keeper is a gallon or less, I'd change the salt water 100% every other day. 2 gallons or over and you can change the water twice a week. As for the Betta Spa, I personally have never used it so I would go with the higher dosage listed on the packaging.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Actually, magnesium sulfate is a "salt." It's just not "table salt.". ("Salts" are just ionic compounds.).... 

Aquarium salt is high in sodium, which puts stress on the kidneys. (And increases blood pressure in people, but I don't know if it does the same for fish!) But magnesium sulfate doesn't contain sodium, so it won't put the same type of stress on the kidneys.

Salts (whether Epsom, table, or any other type) don't evaporate from water. So you'll need to replace it when you do a water change. But you do NOT need to add it to previously treated water, since that would just add new salt to the existing salt.... In other words:

Premix the Epsom salt in a container of new water, making sure it's completely dissolved. Then do your water change, using the regular slow acclimation process. This will give you the correct dosage of Epsom salt, regardless of how much water you change.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oops! You can tell I didn't do so well in chemistry and the sciences. Thanks for clearing that up, LittleBlue.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

<--- Chemistry geek.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm a mineral collector, andd should have known that one- 

"Slow acclimation process" OOPS- when they're in the little QT tanks, I have heated, treated water on hand & will usually just dump 50% of that water in the tank after I've siphoned out 50% of the tank water. These teeny tanks are diffucult to rig up w/ a drip system, at least for me.

Right now I've got 5 fish in QT: Jack, recovering from his spawn (badly torn fins), 2 new Aquabid girls (lovely!) plus a sad little .99 cent PetSmart VT that is the first yellow female I've seen in the big box stores. She is too tiny to have been up for sale! Still, she's a mightly little eater & has that famous betta spunk. It will be quite a while b/f she's able to join the sorority, due to her size.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Ha, by slow acclimation, I meant that some people tend to just do a water change and drop their fish right into it. Then, their fish gets all stressed out, and they (both people and fish) freak out. 

You don't need to drip acclimate. It's just that going from nontreated water to treated water can be a shock, so I go slowly with it, especially the first time. (I, personally, just cup and float them, then add small amounts of treated water, over the course of an hour, and release into the tank.) 

Once they're acclimated to the treated water, then you can just do partial water changes like you normally do. It's just the first time, when things are so different, that I'm extra cautious.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I'll put Epsom salts in that prepared water & slowly add it to her tank throughout the day. At the end of the day I can re-fill the jug & change my other QT tanks.
"Tanks" a lot! (couldn't resist.)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)




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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Flake just died right in front of my eyes.

Her QT tank is 3 feet from me. I've been checking on her all day. I went to check on her again & add some Epsom salt water, and she is frozen in her "sulk" position- chin to anal fin on the bottom of the tank, but she was not breathing or moving her fins. Stone cold. No symptoms at all!!!

At least I didn't have to see her torn apart like her tankmate, Gilly, 1 month ago.
I bought Flake from an ebay seller, when I bought Bananama Jack, my yellow male.

I can't take this!!! I feel like rehoming all my fish. I just had my 5 Amano shrimp all die suddenly (I found them at Petco & bought 5; they were in QT and lasted 3 days!), and last week, I lost the spawn...


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

...and that also doesn't count my 5 adorable Oto catfish, which I love. 1 after another just died; I still have 2. They are the best algae eaters ever.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> I've put in some Stress Zyme & Betta Spa.
> Any other treatments would be GREATLY appreciated; she's one of my favs.


Sorry about your loss, just curious did you mean Stress Coat +? Stress Zyme is a bacteria to help with the decomposition of waste materials in the tank. Highly unlikely that the SZ causes the death, though...Did you add dechlorinator? SZ does not dechlorinize the water FYI.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I meant Stress Zyme- I forgot what it was for, my bad. I tend to panic w/a sick pet. Yes; the water was treated w/ Prime. I added "Betta Spa" (they sell it on the Betta Congress site).


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I will buy Stress Coat tomorrow (too late for Flake). I have a refund from Petco for the dead Amanos. (I froze those.)


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> I will buy Stress Coat tomorrow (too late for Flake). I have a refund from Petco for the dead Amanos. (I froze those.)


If you amano died, something is wrong with the water, not sure if you are using the API Freshwater Test kit as I am not familiar with non-numerical results. If it is test strips, then I do not know what safe means...maybe someone can help.

Kind of like the idea of freezing the dead amano as proof.

I had my amanos since mid-Jan. and they are doing really well in my cycled tank, in fact my shrimps (Amano & RCS) are hardier than my betta :-D:-D:-D


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I am using the API Freshwater kit, and yes; it is maddening that there is no numerical value- just a stupid color-code. One may as well be using the little test strips! I was thinking, b/c it involves vials, etc. that it was something "wicked scientific" but really- it's still comparing one color to another! And "safe" vs "stress" is hardly a useful diagnosis! (Esp. when it's "freshwater fish"- huh? They all have the same params? Inverts, too? I didn't know that!) SORRY RANTING & RAVING!!! I LOST FLAKE!!!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Sorry; the API test does give numbers w/the chart, but in .25 ppm increments. I'm not enough of a chemist to understand the ramifications from .25 ppm vs. .50 ppm.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

My water is hard: 8.2, according to the API chart. I'd think the inverts would like that, but even my Ramshorns die when they reach maturity.

How can I get to the bottom of my water problems? Is there a preventative measure I can take to protect the remainder of my sorority?? (8 fish in 29 gal. I have 3 recently purchased girls in QT.)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I am sorry about Flake. So no symptoms at all? Just lethargy? Do you see anything on her body? Lesions, swellings, etc? If it's not something external, that leaves internal, but I don't know what....

As for the water parameters, if you want, you can post a picture of the vials along with the color chart. We can help you read it. 

The API Test Kit is just a testing device. It's up to the person to determine where the numbers need to be, to meet the needs of their specific fish (or inverts). For example, some fish do better at a lower pH, others at a higher pH. The Test Kit just tells you the pH, but the preferred pH depends on what the specific fish need. Fortunately, Bettas are OK over a fairly wide pH range, but other species of fish (or inverts) may not be. But if you can post a picture of the vials and the color chart, everyone here can help analyze the results.

Stress Coat isn't necessary if you're treating the water with Prime. Stress Coat contains aloe, which can be soothing and helps promote healing. But if you're already using Betta Spa, then you're adding IAL extract - and the tannins in that are already soothing and promote healing....

Atison’s Betta SPA Botanic Water Conditioner - Ingredients: Wild almond leaves extract (Terminalia catappa), yucca and almond, sodium chloride, calcium chloride, and preservatives.
http://www.oceannutrition.com/?post=atisons-betta-spa-botanic-water-conditioner

As you mention, it's sold on the IBC website, and here are some reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Nutrition-ATISONS-BETTA-100ml/dp/B001EUE56A

OK, it sounds like you've had stuff happening in separate tanks. Is anything shared between them? You had the amanos in one tank, the spawn in another, Flake in a third, and where were the Otos?


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Xaltd1 said:


> I am using the API Freshwater kit, and yes; it is maddening that there is no numerical value- just a stupid color-code. One may as well be using the little test strips! I was thinking, b/c it involves vials, etc. that it was something "wicked scientific" but really- it's still comparing one color to another! And "safe" vs "stress" is hardly a useful diagnosis! (Esp. when it's "freshwater fish"- huh? They all have the same params? Inverts, too? I didn't know that!) SORRY RANTING & RAVING!!! I LOST FLAKE!!!


no problem, i see your frustration and grief.

You may want to take note of the strip's reading increments and match that against safe levels of nitrite and nitrate.










Ok, I was able to secure the instruction sheet from API Test Kit on their web site:

API nitrite/nitrate test strips measures Nitrite from 0 - 10.0 ppm (mg/L) in 6 increments:
Nitrite : 0, 0.5, 1.0, 3.0, 5.0 and 10.0 ppm (mg/L) and Nitrate from 0 to 200 ppm (mg/L) in 6 increments: 0, 20, 40, 80, 160 and 200 ppm (mg/L). 

For more precise, low range Nitrite readings, use API nitrite test kit, which is a liquid reagent, and reads from 0 - 5 ppm (mg/L) in 6 increments: 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0 and 5.0 ppm (mg/L). 

For more precise low range Nitrate readings, use API nitrate test kit, which reads from 0 - 160 ppm (mg/L) in 7 increments: 0, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80 and 160 ppm (mg/L)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Otterfun - I thought she was using the API Master Kit for Freshwater, which is a liquid test kit, not strips? That's what I (and many people here) use....

It has a chart like this:


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Yes; I use the API Master Test kit, as above. I did a test the minute I noticed Flake exhibiting lethargy. All 0ppm, except, as I said, the 8.2 pH.

And yes, deaths in 3 different tanks: Gilly & Flake in the 29 gallon;
spawn (I only saw 3 alive or dead) in a new 10-gal I bought for the spawn;
and the 5 Amano in a filtered(!), heated 1 gal as QT b/f introducing them into the 29 g.
I have an algae bloom in the 29 gal. hence my purchase of the Amanos. I can scrub the algae off the sides of the tank & decor; I need help with the plants (all real). I have 2 pieces of driftwood.
I held the otos in a QT tank. 1 died right away; when things seemed stable, I put them in Butch's 2.5 heated/filtered "Betta Bow" that was having greean algae. They scrubbed the tank, 1 died, then a week later, another died (with a very rounded belly). I just have 2 very small ones in Butch's tank now; he's bullying them a bit.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

If possible.... Could you do a test on your tap water? (Assuming you use tap water for your tanks.) Just rinse out the vials, fill with tap water, and run the API tests on them. Then either tell us the results, or post a picture.

I'm wondering what the pH of your tap water is. But I'd like to know the other parameters, too.

Go Butch! Bully whatever you want.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Before I'm bashed, I'm working on a divided 10 gallon for Butch & Jack.
The stupid dividers they sell at Petsmart are no good for bettas- the fish are too strong (I tested it w/ Glow & Jack, my spawn pair.) I'm devising a better one out of plastic canvas- I was busy w/ that until the Flake crisis struck.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Will do; it'll take me a a few minutes. I'll be back soon.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh, I just thought Butch was bullying the two otos. I didn't even notice what size tank he was in, and I don't know where Jack is.

I was busy wondering if the high pH could have affected the fry. Adult bettas can adapt to a wide range of pH values. But I'm not so sure about fry....


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oto deaths early on are not uncommon. A lot of the otos available are wild caught and they don't adapt well to captivity. Also, unless there is a huge amount of algae always available, they eventually need supplemental feeding in the form of blanched veggies.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Jack is in a hospital tank w/ betta spa & IAL. His dorsal fin was severly chomped by his girl. I wanted to keep an eye on him. He's OK. I'm prepaing the new divided 10 gal this evening.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Test results:


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

These results are from the same tap- the bath tub- that I fill my buckets with. (H2 ONLY pails!). As you can see, Prime seems to increase my water hardness!?

I forgot- I picked up the gh/kh kit last week. I CANNOT figure out the directions! This shows 1 drop of solution each. (The instructions don't tell you how many to add- just "count the drops"- how helpful. I'll have to go online.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Looking at the Master Kit results of your tap water first:

a) pH is about 8.2, which is high (but not uncommon). I'm wondering about the impact on the fry, particularly. Also, if pH is high, even if the adult bettas can adapt, it may put stress on their immune system, which could make them more susceptible to something else (bacterial, viral, etc.)

b) Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites - all zero. This is all good.

I'll look up info on the other two tests, and post them.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Found the following on the API website:

*Directions for Testing Carbonate Hardness (KH):*
Read thoroughly before testing. Do not allow Test Solutions to get into aquarium.
To remove childproof safety cap: With one hand, push red tab left with thumb while unscrewing cap with free hand.
Rinse a clean test tube with water to be tested.
Fill the test tube with 5 ml of aquarium water (to the line on the test tube).
Add Carbonate Hardness Test Solution, one drop at a time, holding dropper bottle upside down in a completely vertical position to assure uniformity of drops. After first drop is added, solution will turn blue. If the water sample contains only 1°dKH, the solution will turn from clear to its yellow endpoint after the first drop is added.
Cap the test tube and invert several times after each drop. Keep count of the drops being added. Do not hold finger over open end of the tube, as this may affect the test results.
The test is completed when the water in the test tube, after having been shaken, turns from blue to yellow. If you have difficulty discerning the color after the first drop of test solution is added, remove the cap from the test tube and while holding it over a white background, look down through the tube.
The Carbonate Hardness value is determined by the number of drops of the reagent that must be added to turn the water in the test tube bright yellow. Each drop is equal to 1 °dKH or 17.9 ppm KH, (see the chart).

*Directions for Testing General Hardness (GH):*
Read thoroughly before testing. Do not allow Test Solutions to get into aquarium.
To remove childproof safety cap: With one hand, push red tab left with thumb while unscrewing cap with free hand.
Rinse a clean test tube with water to be tested.
Fill the test tube with 5 ml of aquarium water (to the line on the test tube).
Add General Hardness Test Solution, one drop at a time, holding dropper bottle upside down in a completely vertical position to assure uniformity of drops. After first drop is added, solution will turn orange. If the water sample contains only 1°dGH, the solution will turn from clear to its green endpoint after the first drop is added.
Cap the test tube and invert several times after each drop. Keep count of the drops being added. Do not hold finger over open end ofthe tube, as this may affect the test results.
The test is completed when the water in the test tube, after having been shaken, turns from orange to green. If you have difficulty discerning the color after the first drop of test solution is added, remove the cap from the test tube and while holding it over a white background, look down through the tube.
The General Hardness value is determined by the number of drops of the reagent that must be added to turn the water in the test tube green. Each drop is equal to 1 °dGH or 17.9 ppm GH (see the chart).


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I pulled those off the web as well, but... what chart???


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Ah, OK.... No chart -- the number of drops needed to make the color change is what gives you the results:

So you count the # of drops needed to make the colors change. Then compare them to the results shown on the instructions sheet.

For KH, you need to count drops to make it turn from BLUE to YELLOW.
For GH, you need to count drops to make it turn from ORANGE to GREEN.

So, you need more drops for each test because your KH vial is still blue, and your GH vial is still "orange."

Then, compare the drops used to the chart below:
0°-3° (0-50 ppm) 
3°-6° (50-100 ppm) 
6°-11° (100-200 ppm) 
11°-22° (200-400 ppm)

_Edited to add additional info, and to note that once you know the number of drops of each, we can CALCULATE the KH and GH, rather than use the ranges described above. Each drop represents a specific value, so (# drops used ) x (specific value per drop) = GH or KH value._


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

My kit came with the impossibly small-print b/w instructions (much easier to read on the site, since the size can be increased) but there's no chart w/ my kit. Since I'm going to PetCo to get a refund on my Amano shrimp, I'll ask if I can look at another package of the test. None of the boxes are sealed, so it could have fallen out.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Oh, sorry, I pre-posted.

Try to make it more confusing!!!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Which of the "chart numbers" apply to bettas?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

What numbers did you get? I can show you how to calculate the GH and KH values for your water....

Here's what I've found so far:

_More important than pH is KH for pH stability and the very important, electrolytes for osmoregulation which are found in GH measurements (which are best over 100 ppm GH, 6 dGH). _
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/bettas.html



Oldfishlady said:


> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=70713
> 
> Hardness or the KH/GH-30-40-moderate
> 
> ...


Here's a link to a good article at TFK: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-articles/water-hardness-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/

_GH or general hardness, is the amount of metal ion concentration in your water. Ideally, you would like to keep this under 140ppm, which is the high-end for soft water. Hard water makes it more difficult for males to build bubblenests, because the bubbles pop in hard water, and you may find mineral deposits in tanks and containers. High GH has also been liked to the all too familiar ray curling in Crowntails, although it is not the only factor involved with curling rays.

KH is a very important part of water chemistry, although many people do not test for it or know what it is. It can actually be the difference between life and death for your Bettas, so get familiar with it and test for it. What KH does is prevent your PH from crashing. The higher your KH, the more stable your pH. If your KH is low, your pH can drop significantly within 24 hours, and I have seen it lead to death in juvenile Bettas in 48 hours._
http://www.feistyfins.com/water.htm

And I found a bunch of other info too, but that's a start... LOL


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

OK we're getting somewhere:
Color changes started to happen on the 9th (KH) & 12th (GH) drops, the one before the ones pictured.
For good measure, I'll re-do the tests using the same number of drops in one go, just in case I mis-counted.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

OK, so converting those into numbers:

*KH: * 10 drops --> Range of 6°-11° (100-200 ppm) Most tropical fish including swordtails, guppies, mollies, goldfish. 
Closer approximation: (10 drops) x (17.9 ppm/drop) = *179 ppm*

*GH: *13 drops --> Range of 11°-22° (200-400 ppm) Rift lake cichlids, goldfish, brackish water fish
Closer approximation: (13 drops) x (17.9 ppm/drop) = *233 ppm*


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Yikes... what does that mean for bettas?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

A high GH (233 ppm) means you have hard water, with lots of dissolved salts. Can your males build good bubblenests? And if you show your bettas, their fins may curl.

Your KH (179 ppm) means you have good buffering capacity, so your pH probably doesn't change a whole lot. This is good, as you don't want pH to fluctuate much.

Take a look at OFL's post. She said her values are 300+.....

From the website about the API test kits: 

_What is General Hardness (GH)?
General hardness is the measure of calcium (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) ion concentrations dissolved in water. These minerals are present in municipal, well, and bottled spring water. The level of general hardness in tap and bottled water depends on the source of the water and the treatment processes it has undergone. Hard water (= 200 ppm) is high in calcium and magnesium, while soft water (50 to 100 ppm) is low in these minerals. 

What is Carbonate Hardness (KH)?
Carbonate hardness (also known as alkalinity) is the measure of carbonate (CO32-) and bicarbonate (HCO3-) ion concentrations dissolved in water. These minerals are present in municipal, well, and bottled spring water. The level of carbonate hardness in tap and bottled water depends on the source of the water and the treatment processes it has undergone. Carbonate hardness helps stabilize pH in the aquarium. An aquarium with a low KH level (50 ppm or less) will tend to be acidic. Aquariums with very low KH are subject to rapid pH shifts, if not monitored carefully. Water with a high KH level (= 200 ppm) usually has a high pH. 
_


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

From the website Aquarium GH, KH, PH; Chemistry, What to Know

_"I have received many calls, emails, etc. over the years asking what do about their so-called high GH. Often this GH turns out to be around 200 ppm which is fine for most fish (low for African Cichlids, livebearers and even goldfish do better at higher GH)....

However for the average aquarium keeper simply knowing you have at least SOME general hardness (GH) is what is most important and by some I would recommend generally at least 150 ppm....

As with GH, there is not “Best” KH for a particular aquarium.
As per Aquarium Chemistry; Suggestions, this number can range from 80 to 300 ppm based on the fish kept.
What is important is find a number (ppm) that works best and MAINTAINING THIS NUMBER before and after cleanings, etc.
Maintaining this KH number when keep your pH from crashing and help with fluctuations in the bio load of the aquarium.

As an example, if your pH is 7.0 and your KH is 120 ppm after a cleaning but a day or two later has fallen to 6.5; your aquarium likely needs a higher KH to maintain 7.0 AND/OR you may too much acid producing decomposition, peat, driftwood, etc.
Reducing the acid production and/or raising KH ppm is called for.
The reverse can be said for an aquarium that bounces up in pH after a water change._"


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

This is from an article specifically about Bettas, at http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/bettas.html"

_"Water Parameters: An adaptable TROPICAL fish, Bettas can do well in relatively diverse water conditions and temperatures.
However a stable tropical environment is still best, which include temperatures over 72 F and a stable pH (as a fluctuating pH is more problematic than what the actual number is on the pH scale); More important than pH is KH for pH stability and the very important, electrolytes for osmoregulation which are found in GH measurements (which are best over 100 ppm GH, 6 dGH).
From my many years in professional aquarium maintenance, I cannot emphasize more that far too many Betta owners chase the so-called perfect pH, when Betta owners should simply stabilize the pH via KH whether at 7.5 or 6.5. Then the maintenance of positive mineral ions is another must that is often forgotten by Betta owners from my many interactions over the years."_


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

It's Saturday night and I'm with my fish. So much for life in the fast lane :0)

I have no way of knowing if my males' bubble nests are strong, b/c I've never seen one that wasn't built in my water, not to be flip; I've just seen photos on this site. It would account for fry death, though. If the fry aren't "sticking" to the bubbles, wouldn't the male eat them, assuming the fry was "defective" somehow?
One anomally: I've built a baffle (water bottle kind) under my 29 gal. I keep the (adjustable) filter on full-blast (I want a clean tank) and FOAM- like Mr. Bubble foam-forms underneath the water bottle. It doesn't bother me- another place to hide for the girls, but a water factoid.

I'll research. I'll do a "Betta Lethargy" search, too. Hopefully I can put the puzzle together.

Education is expensive. You pay w/ heartache or cash, and usually both.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

And this is from the TFK article on water hardness and pH:

_General Hardness is basically determined by the minerals calcium and magnesium; GH is sometimes referred to as “permanent hardness” because it cannot be removed from water by boiling as can KH. GH is measured in several different units, but in the hobby the most common are parts per million (ppm) and degrees (dH or dGH). One dGH equals 10 milligrams of calcium or magnesium oxide per litre [2], and is equivalent to 17.848 ppm. Multiplying dGH by 17.9 gives ppm, and similarly dividing ppm by 17.9 gives dGH [the same formula works for KH]. The following chart equates the degrees and relative ppm to common terms in the hobby.

0 - 70 ppm very soft
70 - 140 ppm soft
140 - 210 ppm medium hard
210 - 320 ppm fairly hard
320 - 530 ppm hard
over 530 ppm very hard....

Fish are directly impacted by GH and TDS; their growth, the transfer of nutrients and waste products through cell membranes, spawning (sperm transfer, egg fertility or hatching), and the proper functioning of internal organs such as the kidneys can all be affected....

Carbonate hardness is also measured most often in either degrees (dKH) or parts per million (ppm), and the same formula to convert dGH to ppm and reverse also works for KH. KH is normally tied to the GH, since carbonate minerals include limestone, dolomite, calcium and calcite. Mollusc shells and coral are primarily calcium. Carbonate hardness is sometimes called “temporary hardness” because it can be removed from water by boiling which precipitates out the carbonates.

KH has no direct impact on fish; but it does “buffer” the pH by binding to additions of acids or bases, keeping the pH stable—or more correctly, preventing it from changing—and the higher the KH, the greater the buffering capacity. A simple way is to think of the buffer as a sponge that soaks up the acid being added; however, at some point it will become saturated, and further additions of the acid can then cause a sudden and very large fluctuation which is usually fatal to the fish. This buffering is why attempts to adjust (lower) the pH of hard water are dangerous and will fail unless the KH is first reduced."_

Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...s-ph-freshwater-aquarium-73276/#ixzz2OPjmy8D9


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

WOW!!!
Thank you so much!
I will have to pull the "bullet points" from all this info & post it where I can read it every day, it's the only way I can learn anything.

I'm wondering if there is a harmless preventive additive I can put in the tank to undermine any parasite/virus/bacteria. I think my new policy will be no more live food in the tank- "conditioning" tanks only. Good idea? How long should I QT new bettas?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

All fish carry some bacteria, etc normally. So there's no way to rid them of everything. Many diseases are opportunistic - meaning they're always present, but don't cause significant health issues until something allows them to multiply. This could be as simple as stress, which lowers their immune system response, etc. 

The same is true with us. For example, we all have bacteria on our skin. But until something happens, like a cut or abrasion, they don't cause infection.

So anything you can do to relieve stress, maintain good health, provide a quality diet and good water conditions will help them fight off potential infections.

As for QT, you may want to contact breeders like Basement Bettas or Coppermoon. They recently dealt with mycobacterial infections, causing the need to destroy their entire breeding stocks, as there is no cure for infected fish. So they could probably suggest a good QT time. I know they are more cautious now than they were previously...


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Thank you- I will!
Can I make you a virtual martinti?:cheers:


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