# My betta won't eat :(



## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Hey everyone! I have had my betta Raz for two weeks now and this little guy just will not eat. I have tried flakes, two different types of pellets, freeze dried blood worms, frozen blood worms and he just won't eat a thing. *sigh* I'm starting to get really worried too. The weird thing is that he looks perfectly healthy. Swims around, flares, follows me when he sees me. Is he depressed? Sick internally? Am I freaking out for no reason? Is this normal for a betta to do? :-(

I have a 2.5 gal tank with filter, heater, live plants, snail.
temp is at 78 degrees
Water tested normal


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

I though you wrote that he ate crashed pellets and a few blood worms? Is he refusing them now? I read when someone had new betta and he didn't eat for 2 weeks and then finally started.

I don't know i would worry too. Offer for a few more days and if there is no changes i would try aquarium salt. I read that people write that it can boost immune system and it also antibacterial. 
I know someone who had betta and it just never ate and died and he didn't have any symptoms at all. 
So i would wait and then use aq salt it better to try then loose him.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> I though you wrote that he ate crashed pellets and a few blood worms? Is he refusing them now? I read when someone had new betta and he didn't eat for 2 weeks and then finally started.
> 
> I don't know i would worry too. Offer for a few more days and if there is no changes i would try aquarium salt. I read that people write that it can boost immune system and it also antibacterial.
> I know someone who had betta and it just never ate and died and he didn't have any symptoms at all.
> So i would wait and then use aq salt it better to try then loose him.


I thought he was but realized he was spitting them out *pellets*. Won't touch the flakes and won't eat pellets crushed either. He ate half a blood worm once. That is it. Yeah I will try the salt. I just don't know what else to do. Thanks.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

Do you have all instructions for the salt? Can you let me know how he doing please.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

I have a question about the salt. I have live plants and a nerite snail. Will they be okay with the salt?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

I also noticed Raz has a few black spots on his scales but only on one side. I never saw that before.  What could that be?


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

not sure and he is not eating which makes his immune system weaker.Black spots not one spot? Can you post his picture? Is he still active? I would really do aquarium salt. 
Do you have hospital tank? If not just lower the water so you can do daily 100% water changes. 
Pre mix 1tsp/gall in one gall jug or if you don't have one gall use any clean container/cup to pre mix it and make sure it dissolved before you using it. Make sure the water the same temperature so acclimate him to new water.
You need to do daily 100% water changes. 
Do you have stress coat ? I would use it.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Little black spots?*

Can you see them? Not too many but definitely a new thing. :-(


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

No dont use the the salt with snails and plants ! Do the black spots look like part of his coloring ? If you could get a picture of them that would help alot. Keep offering the food and take it out if he doesnt eat it, you could try to soak the pellets in some garlic juice which many people do so their Bettas will eat. Since he is acting normal try not to sorry to much I know though easier said then done. Its been two weeks so maybe he will start eating soon and its just taking he longer to get adjusted to his new home. If he doesnt eat soon we can send the Old Fish Lady a message and see what she says to try. Good luck and keep us posted to how he is doing.

Great you got a picture...okay I cant really see the spots. He looks healthy ...hhhmmm ...try the pellet soaked in some garlic juice, just smash one up and put the pellet in the juice for a couple of mins.

Also if you want to try the salt you could take the snail and plants out of his tank or put him in a smaller tank. But wait on that okay I really dont think what he needs is salt and not sure how much to add per gallon. I am going to message the Old Fish Lady to have a look at this thread.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Here are two more pictures.*

What do you think?


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

yes plant and snail not salt tolerant. Looks pretty good. I guess keep trying ... Like i wrote before some betta takes longer then other before they start eating. It just scaring me . I know someone had betta that never ate....

aquarium salt can be from 1tsp/gall up to 3tsp/gall with daily 100% water changes. I kind of agree that he might start eating ...may be wait a few more days and just make sure his water super clean...


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## teeneythebetta (Apr 29, 2012)

Try soaking the pellets in garlic juice, the flavor and smell could entice him to eat.
If that doesn't work, try calling the store you bought him at and ask what they feed their bettas.

Aquarium salt 1 teaspoon per gallon, daily 100% water changes.
Do not use AQ salt for more than 10 days, if used longer it can cause organ damage.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Looks like normal pigment and nothing to worry about...

Since he is new and otherwise acting normal and responding to you....What I would recommend....Make 50% water only change-leaving him in the tank-turn off the filter/water movement for now. Don't add any salt-especially in his tank.....

Leave the filter off until he starts to eat-then rinse it out good before you start it again, however, IMO/E-filters are optional for this species-especially in smaller tanks with long fin males-since the filter can sometimes be the cause of fin damage and stress. 

What kind of live plant and how many-depending on the type of plant and if it is thriving it will take care of the water along with water changes-Once I know what kind of plant-we can give you better directions on water change needs.

If you have access to live mosquito larva-offer a couple rinsed and see if he will eat them.
Its not uncommon for them to go off food for awhile in a new environment-especially with water movement-A Betta can go a fair amount of time without eating-Its not ideal---but 2 weeks he should be fine provided that he was healthy to start.

As Perseusmon posted-you can lace the pellets in fresh crushed garlic juice-often the garlic will stimulate appetite. Also, try other brand of food if you have some-but live food is best if you have access to any...

Keep us posted....


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Here is the form you need to fill out it will help all those trying to help.

Housing 
What size is your tank?
What temperature is your tank?
Does your tank have a filter?
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
Is your tank heated?
What tank mates does your betta fish live with?

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
How often do you feed your betta fish?

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
When did you start noticing the symptoms?
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?
Does your fish have any history of being ill?
How old is your fish (approximately)


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Here is all the info I know*

Housing 
What size is your tank? 2.5 gal
What temperature is your tank? 79 degrees
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? Nerite snail

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari betta bio-gold pellets, Aqueon pellets, Tetra freeze dried bloodworms. 
How often do you feed your betta fish? I try feeding twice a day (morning and night)

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? weekly
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Quick start at first with stress coat now only with just Stress Coat.

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:0
pH:7.6
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? black line on the scales
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Gets mopey from time to time
When did you start noticing the symptoms? A few days after I bought him
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Nothing yet
Does your fish have any history of being ill? I just bought him IDK
How old is your fish (approximately) IDK


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> Looks like normal pigment and nothing to worry about...
> 
> Since he is new and otherwise acting normal and responding to you....What I would recommend....Make 50% water only change-leaving him in the tank-turn off the filter/water movement for now. Don't add any salt-especially in his tank.....
> 
> ...


As for live plants I have 1 anubias and I don't know the name of the other one. Here is a pic maybe someone can tell me what it is. I don't have access to live mosquito larva. Any other live food suggestions? I will try the pellets soaked in garlic juice. Hopefully he will eat something. Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Here is the plant I don't know what it is called.*

Anyone know what plant this is?


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Looks like some kinda of Sword plant. About the live foods, your local fish shop might have some live blood worms or you could get some frozen ones, also you might want to check and see if they have any New Life Spectrum Betta pellets, those are very good and of the best foods for Bettas on the market ! I could not find them in mine and had to order on line on Amazon.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Thank you sunlight, teeneythebetta, Oldfishlady and Perseusmom! You all were very helpful. I appreciate your advice. I will definitely keep you all posted on how my little Raz does. I plan for him to be around for a long time. The 10 gal tank on the side is the proof. So I hope he starts eating soon. I will try the garlic soaked pellets and then live food. I hear that I have to be careful with live food though because it can cause ich. Is this true?

Thanks for that rec Perseusmom! I might have to buy those pellets online though. The Petco by me does not have a great selection of betta food. The stores in the city are always out of things.


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## maycausedeath (Jan 29, 2011)

That plant looks more like java fern than a sword to me, and you shouldn't bury the rhizome or it will rot. You can bury just the roots though, or tie it something in your tank.

About live food, it's more known for causing internal parasites, but there is a small risk of ich if the food has been exposed to it. You won't have to worry about it if your betta eats with garlic though. Good luck!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

maycausedeath said:


> That plant looks more like java fern than a sword to me, and you shouldn't bury the rhizome or it will rot. You can bury just the roots though, or tie it something in your tank.
> 
> About live food, it's more known for causing internal parasites, but there is a small risk of ich if the food has been exposed to it. You won't have to worry about it if your betta eats with garlic though. Good luck!


Yes I believe you are right! Thanks I could not remember what it was. Oh that is good to know. I will make sure I fix that. That plant has some brown spots on it and am trying to get it to recover. Hopefully now it will. 

Oh wow that sounds worse! Internal parasites! Eeeek! I hope hope hope he will eat the pellets with garlic. I will try it this evening when I get home from school. Thanks for your help.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: Well I tried the pellets with garlic and he didn't even look at it. *sigh* I did notice that he is more active since I turned off the filter. I will try another type of pellet with garlic tomorrow. If he still doesn't eat it then I will have to try the live food. I really didn't want to go to that but he has to eat something.


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## maycausedeath (Jan 29, 2011)

If the brown spots are on the bottom of the leaf, they may be spores which is normal. They reproduce just like ferns on land.

Sorry to hear that he turned down the first pellet with garlic, but I wouldn't worry too much about live food. I personally don't use it, but many people on here feed it. Maybe you could try searching for topics about it or make a new one?

Good luck with the second pellet!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: I bought a different brand of frozen blood worms and two different pellets (New Life Spectrum and Omega One) and he didn't seem interested in any of them. *sigh* I don't know what else to do. I'm looking into live food but honestly I'm not sure he will even eat that. He is simply not interested in food at all. He doesn't even try to eat it. Do you think something is internally wrong *like a parasite*?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Does this look bloated or something?*

Look by his tail. Do you see a bump? Or am I seeing things?


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

I t could be parasites is the reason he is not wanting to eat, his weight for now looks alright though he is not to thin. If you could find out what they feed their Bettas where you got him it might help and tell them about his not eating and just see what they say. Other than that if he doesnt start eating soon you may want to treat him for parasites but we can ask others about that since I really dont know what meds they use for that. When they do have parasites their poop is white and stringy looking and their tummy can become bloated looking. 

Hang in there we will figure something out to help Raz he is so pretty !!!!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> I t could be parasites is the reason he is not wanting to eat, his weight for now looks alright though he is not to thin. If you could find out what they feed their Bettas where you got him it might help and tell them about his not eating and just see what they say. Other than that if he doesnt start eating soon you may want to treat him for parasites but we can ask others about that since I really dont know what meds they use for that. When they do have parasites their poop is white and stringy looking and their tummy can become bloated looking.
> 
> Hang in there we will figure something out to help Raz he is so pretty !!!!


My hubs and I were thinking parasites too. I asked the pet store and they said pellets and then also said I could return him and get a new betta. :shock: So they were no help. Well I see stringy whitetish poop but then again I have white gravel too. Should I get a med tank? Also I was planning on doing 100% water change today...should I still do that? 

Awww thanks! I'm trying to stay positive but I'm so very worried.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Was he eating at all before, when you got him home, and If he's not eating you may not see poo..but I would get some epsom salt and keep on hand just in case if needed. I hope he will come around soon..I would also keep a Hospital tank on standby.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

for 3 weeks that he is not eating if it would be internal parasites he already would be probably severely bloated or lethargic. If it would be external parasites then he would have other symptoms like cover with white spots, lethargic, looks like his body covered with salt.
Is he bloated at all? Is he still active? You saying you have white gravel are you sure poop white and stringy? 
White bump on his head i don't know what it is though. Maybe external something....not sure, but really think something is wrong and need to be treated ...


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Just saw you wrote by the tail somehow i missed that. I though you meant on his head. By the way what is it on his head, did he has it before? I would do water changes. When is last time you did his water change? See if it white something will go away. Is it fuzzy?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Was he eating at all before, when you got him home, and If he's not eating you may not see poo..but I would get some epsom salt and keep on hand just in case if needed. I hope he will come around soon..I would also keep a Hospital tank on standby.


He would go for the food when I first brought him home but later noticed he was spitting it out. So I don't believe he truly ate anything since. I have tried all types of food and nothing. I see poo but I have a snail too and it might actually be the snails poo. I just bought a hospital tank and I'm setting it up now. Yeah I hope he does too. This is my first betta so I would be heart broken if he didn't pull through. :-( Thanks for the advice.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> Just saw you wrote by the tail somehow i missed that. I though you meant on his head. By the way what is it on his head, did he has it before? I would do water changes. When is last time you did his water change? See if it white something will go away. Is it fuzzy?



The slight lump by his tail is very faint but there. He swims fine and is pretty healthy looking. No upside down swimming or weird swimming. He does stay at the top a lot and barely goes to the bottom. That is not a bump on his head but an unfocused bubble on the surface. I was going to do a 100% water change today. I did a 50% water change on Saturday. His body is clear and fins look great. His color is bright and he is active. The only thing I can think of is constipation or an internal parasite. How would I know though?


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Okay I found something that might be useful its a long shot but some people say that white gravel can be stressful for fish. I saw you had white gravel and it just popped into my mind that awhile back someone had posted asking about that. Here is the link if you want to have a look and I will message Hal about. 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=110291&highlight=white+gravel


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> Okay I found something that might be useful its a long shot but some people say that white gravel can be stressful for fish. I saw you had white gravel and it just popped into my mind that awhile back someone had posted asking about that. Here is the link if you want to have a look and I will message Hal about.
> 
> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=110291&highlight=white+gravel


Wow could it be that simple?! :shock: I truly hope so!!!! I will see if moving him to the 1 gal will make a difference. I don't have any gravel in there. I might just add his plant for hiding. *fingers crossed* 

Question. Should I just change 50% of his water in his tank today let his 1 gal water sit for a day then move him into that 1 gal and see? I'm trying to make it as less stressful for him as possible. Poor thing has had a rough few weeks. I think change is hard on him too. I thought I would ask first.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Oh you and me both hope it can to be this simple, I just messaged Hal and hope to hear back soon about the white gravel. 

About the water change yes I think you should do ahead and do it and in the mean time put water in the new one and try to get it as warm as the water he is in now. Yes keeping it less stressful as possible is a great idea.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> Oh you and me both hope it can to be this simple, I just messaged Hal and hope to hear back soon about the white gravel.
> 
> About the water change yes I think you should do ahead and do it and in the mean time put water in the new one and try to get it as warm as the water he is in now. Yes keeping it less stressful as possible is a great idea.


Okay that sounds good! Thank you! I'm gonna get his 1 gal tank ready and see if my hubs can pick up a small heater. Would a mini bowl heater work? Aqueon mini heater


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

ANHEL123 said:


> for 3 weeks that he is not eating if it would be internal parasites he already would be probably severely bloated or lethargic. If it would be external parasites then he would have other symptoms like cover with white spots, lethargic, looks like his body covered with salt.
> Is he bloated at all? Is he still active? You saying you have white gravel are you sure poop white and stringy?
> White bump on his head i don't know what it is though. Maybe external something....not sure, but really think something is wrong and need to be treated ...




The poop can be stringy, BUT if white, stringy and broken up with the pieces inbetween looking like a very fine almost translucent hair...he will lose weight, and yes even lose the desire to eat. Lethargy, fin clamping etc can also be a sign. Being new it is possible he could have parasites, or even the snail/plants were the culprit. The white bump looks like either a parasite OR an area healing from damage (poked by hard plant will do that) which clean water for a wound is best. AQ salt would be good as it also helps boost his immune system. At this poit I may suggest trying live food if you can, or fasting for 1-3 days to somewhat force him to be hungry. IF it is an internal parasite an anti-parasite med is recommended. I use the Jungle fizz tabs for external/internal parasites with good results.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> The poop can be stringy, BUT if white, stringy and broken up with the pieces inbetween looking like a very fine almost translucent hair...he will lose weight, and yes even lose the desire to eat. Lethargy, fin clamping etc can also be a sign. Being new it is possible he could have parasites, or even the snail/plants were the culprit. The white bump looks like either a parasite OR an area healing from damage (poked by hard plant will do that) which clean water for a wound is best. AQ salt would be good as it also helps boost his immune system. At this poit I may suggest trying live food if you can, or fasting for 1-3 days to somewhat force him to be hungry. IF it is an internal parasite an anti-parasite med is recommended. I use the Jungle fizz tabs for external/internal parasites with good results.


He has been picky since I bought him. I thought I was gonna lose him the first week but he quickly bounced back but would just not eat. This all happened before the snail and plants. So I'm not sure they brought anything to him. Are you talking about the lump on his lower back by tail? The white dot in the picture is not on him just an unfocused bubble on the surface. His body is clear, fins look good and he acts perfectly normal. The only thing is he hasn't eaten for close to two weeks. Just not interested in any thing I give him. I guess I can try to find live blood worms and see if that works. But couldn't that create parasites with in him as well? I wish he had visible signs so I would know the best way to treat him but nothing on his outside appearance really screams a certain disease. It's very frustrating and stressful because I'm not sure what treatment might make it worse if it is not what he has. I guess that is why I am hesitant right now. Thank you for the advice. AQ salt might work.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Yes that heater would be fine...sorry last in answering had to fix some dinner .


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> Yes that heater would be fine...sorry last in answering had to fix some dinner .


No worries! Yum din din sounds good. I haven't eaten much today. Well hubs is on his way with a mini heater, thermometer and e salt! Yay! Raz is still staring at the hospital tank curious to what will go there. He makes me laugh. I did his 50% water change and he looks more perky. Let's see what the next few days bring.


I appreciate everyone's help! You all gave me wonderful advice and we *Raz, my hubs and myself* are so very grateful! (((HUGS))) All around! Strength and healing energy if you can spare it. My little guys needs some. I will def keep you all updated on his progress.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have had a betta not eat for 3 weeks  it is worrying. First he would spit it out then not touch it...

Good luck!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> I have had a betta not eat for 3 weeks  it is worrying. First he would spit it out then not touch it...
> 
> Good luck!


Yeah I am finding more people who say this. I sure hope he starts to eat. Something tells me he just might today. At least I'm hoping. ;-)


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: Today I woke up and the first thing I do is check on Raz. I turn on the bedroom light because turning on his light suddenly when he wakes up just scares the bejeesus out of him. So I'm looking at him and I see that his belly is big! Like he ate something. So now I'm thinking oh great he ate Thor *snail* so I look for him but Thor is fine. Hmmm. Then all the sudden Raz starts to sink to the bottom on the tank. I really start to panic. Raz then darts into his treasure chest and when he comes out the big belly is gone! What the heck happened? He is acting perfectly normal now but I'm confused to why Houdini here had a big belly (when he has not eaten in two weeks) then it was gone in a matter of a few mins. Any ideas?! Should I try to feed him a pellet today?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

He could have passed a big poo :lol: check the treasure chest for poo, and just keep an eye on him. The day I fed my finicky boy was when he was scouting for food along the bottom.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> He could have passed a big poo :lol: check the treasure chest for poo, and just keep an eye on him. The day I fed my finicky boy was when he was scouting for food along the bottom.


LOL! I'm hoping I see a big poo! :lol: That would make my day actually. Okay will go and check his treasure chest.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I hope he will start eating soon and don't have internal parasites. I kind confused with big belly since he didn't eat anything. And with internal parasites symptoms is bloating, discoloration of the stomach, and poo will be just like Sena described.
I think it good idea if you take white gravel out so you can watch his poo. It better be safe then sorry. You can treat internal parasites in early stages.
And what about the that bump that he had is it gone?


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> He could have passed a big poo :lol: check the treasure chest for poo, and just keep an eye on him. The day I fed my finicky boy was when he was scouting for food along the bottom.


Ok, some of these fishy's are strange, I am now having a similar problem with one of my girls, and I have 2 kinds of food, that she used to eat, with no hesitation, now she takes it in her mouth, starts to chew, and spits it out, watches it fall, chases it, grabs it, and starts to chew, and spits it out again, watches it fall again, trys to get it again, then just lets it go..then she looks for it at the bottom of the tank..:shock:never did this before..I am so confused, she readily comes to the top when it's feeding time, but rather "plays" with the food, than eat it..hmmm..and actually has no interest in "swallowing it" goes about her normal swimming, no changes, still very active, but just strange..I have the Omega One, and Hakari Gold, and she is not interested in either one..but she used to love em:-? So I guess I best watch for poo??


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Ok, some of these fishy's are strange, I am now having a similar problem with one of my girls, and I have 2 kinds of food, that she used to eat, with no hesitation, now she takes it in her mouth, starts to chew, and spits it out, watches it fall, chases it, grabs it, and starts to chew, and spits it out again, watches it fall again, trys to get it again, then just lets it go..then she looks for it at the bottom of the tank..:shock:never did this before..I am so confused, she readily comes to the top when it's feeding time, but rather "plays" with the food, than eat it..hmmm..and actually has no interest in "swallowing it" goes about her normal swimming, no changes, still very active, but just strange..I have the Omega One, and Hakari Gold, and she is not interested in either one..but she used to love em:-? So I guess I best watch for poo??


Here is what I have heard but I'm new to all this so best to get others opinion as well. That sometimes the pellets need to be soaked for 10-15 min in their tank water in a separate container before feeding it to your betta. I was told it helps them digest it better. Also maybe feeding less until their appetite comes back. Oh yes look for poo! With my picky little guy I have tried it all. lol. So I'm hoping after this poo which I found! *yay* He will eat finally. Wish me luck!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> I hope he will start eating soon and don't have internal parasites. I kind confused with big belly since he didn't eat anything. And with internal parasites symptoms is bloating, discoloration of the stomach, and poo will be just like Sena described.
> I think it good idea if you take white gravel out so you can watch his poo. It better be safe then sorry. You can treat internal parasites in early stages.
> And what about the that bump that he had is it gone?


You and me both! I was really confused when I saw his big belly. Then he went into is treasure chest and came out a new man! No belly and lively. *scratches head* It's like he is a magician or a really good actor. I'm moving him into his hospital tank today. I'm just waiting for the water to get a little bit warmer. That way I can monitor his poo and see if he eats anything. I do see dark small pieces of poo in the gravel though. That is a good sign right? I looked up betta poo because I never saw it really and it sounds right. That lump seems less defined now. He can also swim better with the filter on. Which he could not do before. He is a mysterious little betta.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

all sound normal ..so hopefully he will make us happy soon lol
Wish you good luck! Give us update and continue with water changes.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

about soaking food. It better not to because it will cause the nutrients and water soluble vitamins to leach out.
Pellets will swell up when you place them in water buy they don't swell up like that in the gut due to the gastric acid and enzymes-they break the food down for digestion...Learn it from Oldfishlady.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> about soaking food. It better not to because it will cause the nutrients and water soluble vitamins to leach out.
> Pellets will swell up when you place them in water buy they don't swell up like that in the gut due to the gastric acid and enzymes-they break the food down for digestion...Learn it from Oldfishlady.


Okay then that research went down the tubes, lol! See that is a prime example of why I come here and ask for others opinions. Sheesh there is so much wrong info out there. Oldfishlady is AWESOME!!! So I should just give him regular pellets. No soaking right? I have Omega One pellets. I hear they are good. I also have New Life Spectrum as well. He has a buffet of choices actually. ;-)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

lelei said:


> Ok, some of these fishy's are strange, I am now having a similar problem with one of my girls, and I have 2 kinds of food, that she used to eat, with no hesitation, now she takes it in her mouth, starts to chew, and spits it out, watches it fall, chases it, grabs it, and starts to chew, and spits it out again, watches it fall again, trys to get it again, then just lets it go..then she looks for it at the bottom of the tank..:shock:never did this before..I am so confused, she readily comes to the top when it's feeding time, but rather "plays" with the food, than eat it..hmmm..and actually has no interest in "swallowing it" goes about her normal swimming, no changes, still very active, but just strange..I have the Omega One, and Hakari Gold, and she is not interested in either one..but she used to love em:-? So I guess I best watch for poo??



Haha this is why Bettas are not just amusing but sometimes a pain! Some of my girls would play with their food if they were legit not hungry or interested. I fast a day of the week, which usually brings some "hunger" back  I use "tetramin" pellets bcause they are super small compared to the other brands I have. I crush them, just a bit so they are more edible (not that the piggies don't devour the biggest one first anyways :roll and I always allow variety (frozen, freeze dried and pellet... Sometimes live aka mealworm meat)


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Raz in hospital tank.*

Update: So far Raz is doing fine in the hospital tank. He is flaring at his twin reflection :roll: and showing us his pretty fins. I hope he will eat today. *fingers crossed* I don't keep the tank light on a lot because he will flare the whole time. I don't want to stress him out.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Haha looks like he has some attitude


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> Haha looks like he has some attitude


If you only knew. He is such a diva. lol!


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

He is so pretty and looks great !!!! Come on Raz stop worrying us and eaaaatttt !


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I know i check post every day hopping he will start eating soon.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: He is still not eating. I even thought perhaps he will eat if a pellet is left and goes to the bottom. Nope. I did a water 50% water change and removed the food. *sigh* Maybe I can try the frozen blood worm dipped in garlic juice? Hmm that might be tasty to Raz. I'm doing all I can. I even pretended to eat a pellet in front of him and then said "Yum that is good!" Yes I'm a crazy worried betta mommy. *sigh*


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Also I'm keeping him in his hospital tank so I can closely observe him. Hopefully I either find out what is wrong or he just starts eating. He is acting spunky and happy though. Flaring and making me laugh. I will keep you all updated on him.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

RedRaz said:


> Update on Raz: He is still not eating. I even thought perhaps he will eat if a pellet is left and goes to the bottom. Nope. I did a water 50% water change and removed the food. *sigh* Maybe I can try the frozen blood worm dipped in garlic juice? Hmm that might be tasty to Raz. I'm doing all I can. I even pretended to eat a pellet in front of him and then said "Yum that is good!" Yes I'm a crazy worried betta mommy. *sigh*


I was always shaking the container around the tank, see if they followed it, and left it open next to the tank to see if they stare at it, and let thier mouth water, then open the tank, and drop em in..I am the same way..but I love the idea of a Frozen BW in garlic juice..I'd say definatley try that one..Hope it helps;-)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

When my Bettas won't eat I use fresh mealworm meat (head chopped and meat squeezed out), live mosquito, cooked shrimp, etc. the smell or the sight of it moving tends to get them to at least play with it lol


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Raz has something on his fin!!!*

Update on Raz: Well today when I woke up I saw that Raz was swimming funny had clamped fins and then noticed he had some small white thing on his fin. :-( Is this a fungus? If you all can give me some advice. Here are some pics I took so you can get a better look.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

I would do aquarium salt with daily water change before it too late. I know some bettas takes long time to eat but he already show some symptoms of the sickness. 1tsp/gall with 100% daily water changes for 10 days. It just what i would do.
Nothing wrong with daily 100% water changes. I read 2 post when betta recovered with those instructions. And i read a lot of post when it really helped perk up the fish.
check out those links
See page 1 page 43#422 page 42 and page 52 it all the same fish.
www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=108151
www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=113927


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> I would do aquarium salt with daily water change before it too late. I know some bettas takes long time to eat but he already show some symptoms of the sickness. 1tsp/gall with 100% daily water changes for 10 days. It just what i would do.
> Nothing wrong with daily 100% water changes. I read 2 post when betta recovered with those instructions. And i read a lot of post when it really helped perk up the fish.
> check out those links
> See page 1 page 43#422 page 42 and page 52 it all the same fish.
> ...


Thank you! I agree with you completely. I'm gonna do that right now. Is that fungus?


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Good thing you saw this on him, so sorry but do the treatments and I bet he will be fine and start eating when he feels better. I suppose it is some type of fungus which I know nothing about but will read up on it. Good luck and Hugs !!!!


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

i am not sure but I’ve that experienced once ,which is again it a lot of different situations. Some fish can take up to 3 weeks to start eating, and be completely fine. I have fish like that. But I also have experiences which may be rare but can happened when fish didn't have any symptoms whatsoever and never ate. He actually died but he develop some white staff all over his body. Different than your fish though. Don't want to scare you though. 
I hope he will start eating soon 
Please keep us updated.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Thank you both. I just did the 100% water change with AQ salt. He is a little pale in color.  I hope he pulls through. I'm already in tears.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If it is fungus lower the water temperature to 76. Higher temperatures encourage fungus to grow and I think you said his water is at 79... Try to clean the tank every day, at least siphoning the bottom without ever removing him.

Did you dissolve the salt first?


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

You caught is very soon and are doing the best you can and we are in there with you and counting on Raz to pull though okay...and he is a tough little dude !!!!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> If it is fungus lower the water temperature to 76. Higher temperatures encourage fungus to grow and I think you said his water is at 79... Try to clean the tank every day, at least siphoning the bottom without ever removing him.
> 
> Did you dissolve the salt first?


Okay I turned off the heater because it is not adjustable to keep the temp a bit lower. I'm gonna be home all day so I will watch the thermometer to make sure the temp stays good. Room temp is pretty good. Yes I watched a youtube video on how to add AQ salt to tanks. So I dissolved the salt first then added it to the tank. His color is much better he is just mopey right now.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> You caught is very soon and are doing the best you can and we are in there with you and counting on Raz to pull though okay...and he is a tough little dude !!!!


Thank you! I appreciate that. He is tough but I just hate seeing him like this. Breaks my heart. His color does look better. Just not very active right now.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would do 1tsp/gall for a day and then you might need to increase it to 2tsp/gall. Aquarium salt can be up to 3tsp/gall.
Make sure you dissolve salt first in one gall and shake it well. Don't add it directly to his container. Make sure you acclimate him to new water...


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> I would do 1tsp/gall for a day and then you might need to increase it to 2tsp/gall. Aquarium salt can be up to 3tsp/gall.
> Make sure you dissolve salt first in one gall and shake it well. Don't add it directly to his container. Make sure you acclimate him to new water...


How would I know to increase the salt dosage? Yep I dissolved it in a separate container first then added it to his tank. Yeah I always make sure I acclimate him to his new water. My Raz just doesn't like 100% water changes. They stress him out.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

give us update how he doing and will see if you need to increase the dosage. How you acclimate him. Is the new temperature inappropriately the same as his? Try to add a little bit of new water in his changing, cup let him get used to it for about 5 min,and do it 2-3 times. This way he will not ever fell the difference,


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> give us update how he doing and will see if you need to increase the dosage. How you acclimate him. Is the new temperature inappropriately the same as his? Try to add a little bit of new water in his changing, cup let him get used to it for about 5 min,and do it 2-3 times. This way he will not ever fell the difference,


Okay I will def keep everyone updated. Yes that is what I do to acclimate him. I put some of the water from the tank into his cup wait 15 mins. Then do a little bit more. Wait another 15 mins. The temp is pretty much the same temp. I think what stresses him is being taken out of his tank. I am very gentle when I take him out and put him back. I guess my little guy is just more sensitive.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update: Raz is staying at the bottom of the tank and is barely moving. 

I tested the water. Temp is at 76.
pH is at 7.6
Ammonia is at 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Should I put him in his cup? In case he his having issues getting to the surface? Lower the water in his tank?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

He looks like he is getting worse.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

which one is easier for you but i would think cup may be better


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> which one is easier for you but i would think cup may be better


I think a cup would be best too. *sigh* I don't know what else to do for him.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*This is how Raz looks now. *

He isn't looking too good and whatever it is happened so fast. IDK what it is.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

so sorry you do the best you can. Now i think all you can do just wait and see if he can be better. I read a lot of people recommending stress coat do you have it by any chance? If not just may be keep him in the deem light and wait and do water change tomorrow with salt. I hope he will pull through. So sorry. Don't cry though you doing good job for him ...and i don't think that he has pain now he just might feel something is wrong but no pain .
Does he still has that white fuzzy stuff is it better or worse? Does he has more white stuff on his body?
Didn't see your post. His body still the same though.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> so sorry you do the best you can. Now i think all you can do just wait and see if he can be better. I read a lot of people recommending stress coat do you have it by any chance? If not just may be keep him in the deem light and wait and do water change tomorrow with salt. I hope he will pull through. So sorry. Don't cry though you doing good job for him ...and i don't think that he has pain now he just might feel something is wrong but no pain .
> Does he still has that white fuzzy stuff is it better or worse? Does he has more white stuff on his body?
> Didn't see your post. His body still the same though.


Yeah I use stress coat. Thanks. I appreciate that. I can't see the white spot but his fins are quite clamped. So I'm not sure if it got better or not. Not really white stuff on his body just he is really pale and his scales look funny. I posted a pic above. My avi shows how he should look. Completely different now.  I hope he gets better.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Does he has raised scales? Is what you mean?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Raised scales?*

I'm not sure what raised scales look like but I tried to get a better picture. Maybe you can tell better then me. What do you think? Almost looks like when we get goosebumps. That is what his scales look like to me. I don't know if that makes sense. Is that bad if he does have raised scales?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

sorry but yes. Not sure sorry it may be fluid accumulation in his body. I think it can be kidneys failure...
Do you have Epsom salt? Please just don't panic. Is he really lethargic and not moving at all?
Not sure what it is it takes me literally 5-7 min to switch pages on the forum or put a thread. If i unable to do i would recommend to you text Oldfishlady or Sena or Sakura8. Not sure who is on line now. 
I think his scales raised and sorry not sure if he will survive but i think you might need to switch to Epsom salt instead of the aq salt. Need another opinion. Can you text Oldfishlady i think actually she is on line see her opinion. Kind of happened too fast for him just one day...don't know what it is...text Oldfishlady i cant do anything site works very slow...


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> sorry but yes. Not sure sorry it may be fluid accumulation in his body. I think it can be kidneys failure...
> Do you have Epsom salt? Please just don't panic. Is he really lethargic and not moving at all?
> Not sure what it is it takes me literally 5-7 min to switch pages on the forum or put a thread. If i unable to do i would recommend to you text Oldfishlady or Sena or Sakura8. Not sure who is on line now.
> I think his scales raised and sorry not sure if he will survive but i think you might need to switch to Epsom salt instead of the aq salt. Need another opinion. Can you text Oldfishlady i think actually she is on line see her opinion. Kind of happened too fast for him just one day...don't know what it is...text Oldfishlady i cant do anything site works very slow...


Thanks for helping. I just message her right now.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Do you have Epsom salt?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Make sure she knows abut that white stuff on his body that he had. I am not sure but sometimes raised scales can be also from external parasites. It confusing to me because he don't have symptoms for internal or external parasites i think it fluid in his body 

Do you have Epsom salt in case Oldfishlady will recommend it, i think that is what you need.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> Make sure she knows abut that white stuff on his body that he had. I am not sure but sometimes raised scales can be also from external parasites. It confusing to me because he don't have symptoms for internal or external parasites i think it fluid in his body
> 
> Do you have Epsom salt in case Oldfishlady will recommend it, i think that is what you need.


I don't have epsom salt. I can get it today though. I have to wait for my hubs though. Should I put him in fresh water then until I can get it?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wait until Oldfishlady confirm what i am saying. If you will not have answer from her or anyone else who already knows what is going on then yes i would change the water and put him in epsom salt. It the same preparations. I would really do 3tsp/gall though.
I have a question though did you see anything visible under his scales ? And one more question is his scales raised on all his body or just partially?
The reason i am asking that because i saw the post when fish had external black parasites under the scales and scales were raised. But i am really don't think that he has it just want to make sure.
Because i would think if it fluid in his body then all his scales will be raised. Is it make sense?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Since he hasn't adapted in the week that you have had him or hasn't eaten...I think he was most likely sick to start with and then with poor nutrition- further compounded the issue-especially now that he has taken a sudden turn for the worse...New growth on a fin, becoming more lethargic, scales sticking up without edema and still not eating....Sadly, not a lot you can do, however, Epsom salt 3tsp/gal along with some tannins won't hurt.

Since you don't have any Epsom salt on hand yet....if you have access to any Oak trees that you could collect some naturally dried and fallen from the tree Oak leaf....add about 4-6 to his tank-crush them up first and allow one to float at the surface to help make him feel more secure-turn off the filter and lower the water level to about 3-4 inches, turn off the light-dim lit quiet location for now-Its important to limit the stress as much as you can.

If you have access to mosquito larva-go collect some-look for some standing water outside and use a fine meshed net and scoop some out-rinse and add to his tank to see if you can stimulate his feeding/hunting instinct.....

Good luck and keep us posted......


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> Since he hasn't adapted in the week that you have had him or hasn't eaten...I think he was most likely sick to start with and then with poor nutrition- further compounded the issue-especially now that he has taken a sudden turn for the worse...New growth on a fin, becoming more lethargic, scales sticking up without edema and still not eating....Sadly, not a lot you can do, however, Epsom salt 3tsp/gal along with some tannins won't hurt.
> 
> Since you don't have any Epsom salt on hand yet....if you have access to any Oak trees that you could collect some naturally dried and fallen from the tree Oak leaf....add about 4-6 to his tank-crush them up first and allow one to float at the surface to help make him feel more secure-turn off the filter and lower the water level to about 3-4 inches, turn off the light-dim lit quiet location for now-Its important to limit the stress as much as you can.
> 
> ...


Thank you OFL! I will see what I can do. I appreciate all your help. I will keep you all updated.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

I am soo sorry to see Redraz not doing so good, I sure hope he recovers, Please let me know if you need some IAL, I have and can send..


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

I did notice that Raz keeps darting around like he has an itch or something. Keeps doing sharp turns and getting close to the floor. Almost rubbing his head or body. He doesn't have ich does he?


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Sounds like parasites, explains the not eating..he needs the Empsom salts..


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Sounds like parasites, explains the not eating..he needs the Empsom salts..


Thanks for offering the IAL. *hugs* I appreciate that. Perseusmom is sending me some today. 

I was thinking that too. Anything else I can get for him? I don't have oak trees by me unfortunately. As soon as my hubs gets home we will get some Epsom salt. My CC got compromised so I have no way of buying it til he gets here. Otherwise I would of gotten it already. *sigh* It's been a bad week all together.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

wait that is what i wrote before sticking out scales could be also external parasites not internal. This is new symptoms for him. With internal parasites he would be bloated from having parasites in his stomach and have discoloration of the stomach. With external parasites one time i read post that if they under the scales then scales can be raised.
Oldfishlady am i right?
If he has those new symptoms then it not epsom salt it aquarium salt.
His stomach not bloated. It probable external parasites . And picture before something white on his fin and then it disappeared...
Do you still have him in aq salt? Keep him for now and wait again for someone who confirm what i wrote. I think it can be external parasites.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> wait that is what i wrote before sticking out scales could be also external parasites not internal. This is new symptoms for him. With internal parasites he would be bloated from having parasites in his stomach and have discoloration of the stomach. With external parasites one time i read post that if they under the scales then scales can be raised.
> Oldfishlady am i right?
> If he has those new symptoms then it not epsom salt it aquarium salt.
> His stomach not bloated. It probable external parasites . And picture before something white on his fin and then it disappeared...
> Do you still have him in aq salt? Keep him for now and wait again for someone who confirm what i wrote. I think it can be external parasites.


I have him in his cup in a quiet room with the lights off. I'm trying to lower his stress. The water in his cup has AQ salt still I didn't change it yet. I really don't know what he has. I'm confused.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

so sorry i know it frustrating and confusing. But you wrote new symptoms ..and it change the way you have to treat him.
Oldfishlady not on line, so i saw Sena is i just texted her to see what is her opinion. So sorry. If you can go buy epsom salt and then check on forum. But i would also think you might need medications also for external parasites. I have them at work i could mail them to you but i don't know if you even have time to wait.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> so sorry i know it frustrating and confusing. But you wrote new symptoms ..and it change the way you have to treat him.
> Oldfishlady not on line, so i saw Sena is i just texted her to see what is her opinion. So sorry. If you can go buy epsom salt and then check on forum. But i would also think you might need medications also for external parasites. I have them at work i could mail them to you but i don't know if you even have time to wait.


I understand. New symptoms do change things. Raz is a medical mystery but def a fighter. I hope he can hold on. I can get the e salt today. What kinds of meds would I need to get? Do you think the pet store would have them? Thanks for helping me out. *hugs*


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

I am under the impression it may be both, if that is possible, if he is not eating, it could be internal, but the rubbing, darting would be external, and if he is in the AQ salt that would help for external, but you may need to switch in a few days to internal, because if he don't get rid of the internal he will never eat..and that could be raising the scales, based on just water content, and no food, as well as parasites, that may need to be taken care of first..


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

RedRaz said:


> Thanks for offering the IAL. *hugs* I appreciate that. Perseusmom is sending me some today.
> 
> I was thinking that too. Anything else I can get for him? I don't have oak trees by me unfortunately. As soon as my hubs gets home we will get some Epsom salt. My CC got compromised so I have no way of buying it til he gets here. Otherwise I would of gotten it already. *sigh* It's been a bad week all together.


 
Oh I am glad your getting some, that will help, hopefully you can get em quickly..Keep trying the things we all mentioned, with the salts, and IAL and if you see no improvement in 5-7 days..you may need something stronger, there is something called Jungle Parasite Guard..I will look it up to send the link..


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> I am under the impression it may be both, if that is possible, if he is not eating, it could be internal, but the rubbing, darting would be external, and if he is in the AQ salt that would help for external, but you may need to switch in a few days to internal, because if he don't get rid of the internal he will never eat..and that could be raising the scales, based on just water content, and no food, as well as parasites, that may need to be taken care of first..


That makes a lot of sense now. So I should put him in e salt first? Then work on the external parasites with the AQ salt after? My poor baby. I feel so awful for him.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

go buy epsom salt for now so you have it in case you need it. And when you have betta fish you need to have it anyway. I would buy medications just in case for external parasites. Well you can buy for internal also. You can return it later. With internal parasites i think he don't have it though. With internal parasites he would be lethargic long time ago and be bloated. But differently for external. I know API , Tetra i think too good brands.
I would say forgive me hope for the best but be prepare for the worse. It just i want you to be ready if something...


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Oh I am glad your getting some, that will help, hopefully you can get em quickly..Keep trying the things we all mentioned, with the salts, and IAL and if you see no improvement in 5-7 days..you may need something stronger, there is something called Jungle Parasite Guard..I will look it up to send the link..


Okay thank you. At least now I have some sort of direction with these new symptoms but the bad part is he is declining faster now. I will go and get the e salt and look at meds for both internal and external parasites. Maybe I can see if we can drive by where Oak trees are and pick up a few. Hopefully some are near me. Until I get the IAL.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> go buy epsom salt for now so you have it in case you need it. And when you have betta fish you need to have it anyway. I would buy medications just in case for external parasites. Well you can buy for internal also. You can return it later. With internal parasites i think he don't have it though. With internal parasites he would be lethargic long time ago and be bloated. But differently for external. I know API , Tetra i think too good brands.
> I would say forgive me hope for the best but be prepare for the worse. It just i want you to be ready if something...


Yeah I'm going to get e salt and meds for both just to be prepared for which ever it is. I think this little guy has a lot of fight in him. I'm gonna try all I can to help. I'm just hoping for the best.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

yes and wait until someone else will confirm what to do . I texted a few people because they know about salt and medications. So you buy it and wait for response. It not that easy I wish you can just mix and treat... And e salt along not going to treat internal parasites anyway especially he is not eating.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> yes and wait until someone else will confirm what to do . I texted a few people because they know about salt and medications. So you buy it and wait for response. It not that easy I wish you can just mix and treat... And e salt along not going to treat internal parasites anyway especially he is not eating.


Okay. I will go and see what they have at petco. I will be back to see what you all say about treating him. Then proceed from there. Thanks.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

RedRaz said:


> That makes a lot of sense now. So I should put him in e salt first? Then work on the external parasites with the AQ salt after? My poor baby. I feel so awful for him.


 
I do too, and I am hoping that we can do the best we can in diagnosing him, and treating him correctly..it is complicated, because of the treatments that differ from the diag's..I wish him well, and yes, he is a fighter, so we will definatley keep praying for your lil guy;-) Get the Epsom from your local CVS or the like, I doubt the Petco's sell that one.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I texted 2 people Sena and Sakura not sure who will see first. Oldfishlady don't recognize medications that is why i didn't text her but she is also not on line. I kind of got crazy and check every 10 min non of them on line.

I kind of thinking it external parasites, since symptoms more look like it. And i read post before can't find it kind of similar. But fish was white and person could see parasites through the sails. And that fish also had raised scales, but i think not on whole body though. That is why i am thinking that it is external parasites under his scales. With internal he would be probably severely bloated for that long time that he is sick.

So if you bought medications for external parasites i would pre mix recommended dosage. Do not add directly to his container. 

Not sure what to do with aquarium salt. Add medications today if you have it and wait for response by tomorrow if you just have to add medications only or use it together with salt. I think he is complicated case and i think he is sick for long time. So i am not sure about if you should use salt with medications.
Usually salt for secondary infection but also salt dehydrate parasites.

Also can you raise the temperature of the water? And how much. Usually when you treat ext parasites raising the temperature help to speed up life cycle of the parasites and they fall faster so you can remove them manually from the tank when you do water changes(100%). So if you can make his temp warmer? It recommended 86* but i spoke to Oldfishlady one time and she told me at least 78-82* is fine for that .

Oh good luck.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> I texted 2 people Sena and Sakura not sure who will see first. Oldfishlady don't recognize medications that is why i didn't text her but she is also not on line. I kind of got crazy and check every 10 min non of them on line.
> 
> I kind of thinking it external parasites, since symptoms more look like it. And i read post before can't find it kind of similar. But fish was white and person could see parasites through the sails. And that fish also had raised scales, but i think not on whole body though. That is why i am thinking that it is external parasites under his scales. With internal he would be probably severely bloated for that long time that he is sick.
> 
> ...


Okay. Thank you so much for helping out. You are awesome. I couldn't find anything good for external parasites at this petco by me. I will try another tomorrow. I did get the epsom salt. What meds did you recommend? I saw Parashield by Sentry and Coppersafe by Mardel. 

I will move Raz back to his tank tomorrow then? He is relaxing right now. Still gives me that sweet look when I peek in on him. So I know he is trying hard to stay with us. Should I continue with the AQ salt until I get the medicine? I will start heating the tank right now. Thanks again for all your help! I would of been lost.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

i hope your fish will get better


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

it just came to my mind that i read don't remember who wrote it , when you using extra stress coat fish reproduce extra slime coat which also help parasites to fall. So keep him in aq salt for now if you can increase temp. And i think we will get help tomorrow. I know Sakura and Sena checking forum regularly.
It good that you have stress coat i want to know if it good idea to add extra so he reproduce extra slime.

Meditations for external parasites don't know i have writing down at work what kind. But i know API is good brand. 
That is also why i text Sakura and Sena they know about medications. 

So for now keep him in aq salt , raise the temp, keep him in dark because if it indeed external parasites it like the lite and will continue to reproduce.

I keep thinking what was that white on his tail. Is it was fuzzy? Didn't look like parasites but disappeared with water change? Did you see it again on any part of his body?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have used Jungle Fizz Tabs for parasites, works for internal and external. I have used it for both. You could try using that, which then treat your entire tank (one tab is for 10 gallons). I would work on internal rather than external. Internal is definitely more harmful. Have you seen any poo? Or random stringy thin transparent strands?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sena do you remember i show you thread a while ago white betta with black parasites under the scales? And his scales were raised ? That what gave me idea more external since he is not bloated at all. And he is sick i think for like 3 weeks. I would think if it internal he would be severely bloated and lethargic long time ago.
and there is a picture above Raz having something white on his fins did you see it is it looks like parasite? It disappeared i think with water change. Page 7

What do you think about using more stress coat ? I read that fish reproduce more slime and help parasite to fall?
Yes and i am wondering about poo too.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

If it disappeared with a water change the white was merely slime coat excess, which is his body's defense. The Jungle Fizz Tabs would work for external as well, but so would a maracyn and maracyn 2 combo


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

so how about aq salt? Should stopped it when medications added?
And i would continue to add stress coat .


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Hey Sena. Am I gonna still do the epsom salt treatment? Right now he is in his cup with AQ salt. His tank is set up with epsom salt and heater. Or do you think I should get the meds and just do that?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> i hope your fish will get better


Thank you! I hope so too.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

No hold on epsom. Darting/rubbing with raised scales usually means something like skin flukes. 
Keep him in aq salt until you buy those medications that Sena wrote.
Use extra Stress Coat even with the meds. Anything to help them with the slime coat which is a fish's only protection against disease. When you use extra stress coat fish will produce extra slime and help to fight parasites

So until you buy those meds keep him in aq salt , raised temp,dark, daily water changes with 2tsp of aq salt


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> No hold on epsom. Darting/rubbing with raised scales usually means something like skin flukes.
> Keep him in aq salt until you buy those medications that Sena wrote.
> Use extra Stress Coat even with the meds. Anything to help them with the slime coat which is a fish's only protection against disease. When you use extra stress coat fish will produce extra slime and help to fight parasites
> 
> So until you buy those meds keep him in aq salt , raised temp,dark, daily water changes with 2tsp of aq salt


Okay I have to dump out his tank water then because it was set up with epsom salt. I will set it up with AQ salt instead. Tomorrow I will add him into his tank. I will use the stress coat for sure. Tomorrow I will look for those meds. Thanks.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

good luck give us update tomorrow.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: He made it through the night. His tank is ready for him so I'm right now just acclimating him to his new water. Still looks pale but is responsive and swims around. The meds that I need are on amazon so I will have to order then today and do fast shipping. The pet store don't have these types of meds. I'm ordering a few different types of meds just in case. I should of gotten a betta med kit with all these meds when I bought him. I feel so bad about this. Being prepared for everything is so important with betta care. As a betta keeper I am so very sorry I didn't realize this sooner. Well I just wanted to give you all an update. I'm still hoping for the best.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

don't feel bad we all learning and we all was in the same situation. 

I was wondering if you ever saw his poo? The reason why it important because a lot of the time if male has white, clear color, stringy , wormy shape poo it can mean internal parasites. And he would be bloated also from that. I know he is not bloated But still just want to make sure he doesn't have it.

And i would still try to feed him if he is responsive. Just make sure to remove uneaten food. 
Do you have shrimp? My bettas like cooked shrimp. You can try that just in case he might want it. Just little piece (pellet size). It sink to the bottom though very fast if he don't eat it. So you can try it while he is in the small container so you can remove it.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Pic of Raz swimming.*



ANHEL123 said:


> don't feel bad we all learning and we all was in the same situation.
> 
> I was wondering if you ever saw his poo? The reason why it important because a lot of the time if male has white, clear color, stringy , wormy shape poo it can mean internal parasites. And he would be bloated also from that. I know he is not bloated But still just want to make sure he doesn't have it.
> 
> ...


I def saw poop in his regular tank. Small brownish looking. In his hospital tank I thought I saw some stringy thing now that I remember but I wasn't sure that was his poop. In his cup I didn't see any poop. Now that he is back in his tank I will check for stringy poop definitely now. He's isn't bloated just pale and clamped fins. His scales are not as bad today as yesterday. I tried to get a picture of him. Not feeling up to getting his pic taken today.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

So happy to see you getting so much help with Raz and your doing a fine job caring for him so please dont feel bad you have had to learn so much and so fast to help him and sending many best wishes for you and Raz and now for the new little one !!!!


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Perseusmom said:


> So happy to see you getting so much help with Raz and your doing a fine job caring for him so please dont feel bad you have had to learn so much and so fast to help him and sending many best wishes for you and Raz and now for the new little one !!!!


Yes everyone has been such an amazing help. Thank you*hugs*! It just seemed like I never had time to think about things like this since I was so focused on him eating then no signs of disease made it difficult for me to treat. Now I have a better plan. Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate that. Also thank you for the blessings. 

Yes Raz has new bro or sis! Hubs brought home a baby betta. So I'm learning a lot of new things these few weeks.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Small brownish looking -normal. Now since you don't have gravel it will be easier for you to see so watch for poo. And like you wrote that you going to buy a few different med's so buy the one that i wrote to you in my private message (Sakura recommendations) and the one that Sena said in your post that will treat internal and external. 

Did you put 2tsp today? If it what we think flukes (ext parasites 2 tsp is better) 
Did you see him darting and trying to rub his body? 
And remember to dry out everything like i wrote for you that if he has those flukes they will die. I see you have silk plants in his tank make sure you rinse those in hot water and dry it out.
Oh good luck i wish your lucky guy will get better with your great help. I wish he will eat so he can fight the disease and make his immune system stronger.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Since I have never dealt with flukes, I do have a question - can a fluke be a black "strand" (short strand" on a gill or faceplate? Just curious because of my own boy 

As for Razz he is looking better which is good. Recovery and fighting off parasites is always hard, but Bettas are fighters


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Gill Flukes*



Sena Hansler said:


> Since I have never dealt with flukes, I do have a question - can a fluke be a black "strand" (short strand" on a gill or faceplate? Just curious because of my own boy
> 
> As for Razz he is looking better which is good. Recovery and fighting off parasites is always hard, but Bettas are fighters


I found a picture online that shows what gill flukes looks like. It's the best pic I could find. Here are some symptoms I found on another forum.

1) Fish twitching the head side to side once in a while like if wanted to shake something off his head.

2) Discolored blotches of skin (Most people think this is velvet or some bacterial infection and misdiagnose it with antibiotics)

3) Frayed fins or tail. 

4) Sudden loss of appetite. 

5) Cloudy eye(s)

6) Rapid breathing


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> Small brownish looking -normal. Now since you don't have gravel it will be easier for you to see so watch for poo. And like you wrote that you going to buy a few different med's so buy the one that i wrote to you in my private message (Sakura recommendations) and the one that Sena said in your post that will treat internal and external.
> 
> Did you put 2tsp today? If it what we think flukes (ext parasites 2 tsp is better)
> Did you see him darting and trying to rub his body?
> ...


Yeah he has gill flukes. I looked at all the symptoms and he has all of them. Poor thing. I'm using 2 tsp of AQ salt. I bought the Hikari Prazipro from Amazon so as soon as i get it I will add it. I bought this Terta Lifeguard all-in-one treatment tablets from petco in the mean time. You think i should try it until his meds get here? I have to set up his regular tank with filter going though in order to use it. What are your thoughts?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sena i text ed you and Sakura8 at the same time didn't know who will response first. So yesterday you put your advice and then i talk to Sakure. I think she knows better about flukes. You can sand her pm , she is very nice and always glad to help, just like you. So i would suggest to text her or just make another post about flukes.

Now i need advice. I was helping Atena on this forum about 4 month ago with external parasites. Her fish was treated right away though so it was not severely damaged. And we did salt first then she did medications. So Sena what do you think should we switch to medications or continue with salt for whole course of it and increasing up to 3 tsp since his scales better.
Do you have idea ?
I also going to text Sakura to help make decision.

No filter needed while you treat him. I would take it out actually. You don't need to use filter while you treating him with medications or salt.

Before we make decision we need to know how he doing. You wrote his scales better? Less raised? Still responsive?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 Okay gotcha. I wanted to make sure about the filter because the fish guy at petco told me I need it. *lol* I know why do I even listen to them. Well Raz is more responsive, swimming around but stays at bottom or lays on top of the heater and will not eat. Scales are still raise just not as bad. He is breathing rapidly though which I suspect is the flukes causing this. His fins have more color but body is still pale.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I just text Sakura to take a look at your thread or tell me what to do. I am leaving and will be back at 10 or 10.30 pm.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> I just text Sakura to take a look at your thread or tell me what to do. I am leaving and will be back at 10 or 10.30 pm.


Thank you again for your help! Have a great night.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Red Raz and welcome to the forum. Anhel said your fish seems to be improving using salt? If that is the case, I would definitely continue to use the salt and daily water changes for the full 14 days. The key to this approach is the water changes, which remove the parasites from the water before they can reattach or multiply. If at the end of the 14 days, he's still showing some symptoms then I would suggest switching him to a medication to finish off those bloodsuckers once and for all.

For now, I would wait to see how a few more days of salt work before trying the Lifeguard tabs. If the salt can do the job then the fewer meds we have to use the better. 

Good luck with him.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Hi Red Raz and welcome to the forum. Anhel said your fish seems to be improving using salt? If that is the case, I would definitely continue to use the salt and daily water changes for the full 14 days. The key to this approach is the water changes, which remove the parasites from the water before they can reattach or multiply. If at the end of the 14 days, he's still showing some symptoms then I would suggest switching him to a medication to finish off those bloodsuckers once and for all.
> 
> For now, I would wait to see how a few more days of salt work before trying the Lifeguard tabs. If the salt can do the job then the fewer meds we have to use the better.
> 
> Good luck with him.


That sounds like a wonderful idea Sakura! Thank you so much. I appreciate your help. I hope he gets in tip top shape soon. Then maybe he will actually eat something. I might cry *joyful tears* if he does. *fingers crossed*


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm definitely rooting for him.  You're giving him great care and Anhel has done a fantastic job helping you. Raz has a great medical staff, haha.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm definitely rooting for him.  You're giving him great care and Anhel has done a fantastic job helping you. Raz has a great medical staff, haha.


Yes great medical advice indeed! *hugs* to you all! Anhel has been AWESOME!


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Hey Red, I just caught up with what the latest is with Razz..I am soo sorry to hear found out it's Flukes? Well, he is getting the best treatment, and I sure hope he can beat this..I am sending fishy prayers for him The best thing is to have the proper diag, so it can be treated the best way possible, hope he can eat soon


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Hey Red, I just caught up with what the latest is with Razz..I am soo sorry to hear found out it's Flukes? Well, he is getting the best treatment, and I sure hope he can beat this..I am sending fishy prayers for him The best thing is to have the proper diag, so it can be treated the best way possible, hope he can eat soon


Thank you for checking in on us. Yeah I guess all we can do is wait and see. I appreciate the prayers. I am thankful to finally have a direction now. I hope so too. I will keep every updated on his progress.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: He looking so much better. Has his fins all open and no more clamped fins!!! His color is almost normal. Woo-Hoo!  He was swimming everywhere in the tank and even flaring at his reflection. lol! I'm so happy he is getting better. 

I definitely need to get him to eat. You think I should try frozen brine shrimp? Thta is about all I have not tried. He did not eat the NLS pellets. I have to call few more places around where I live to see if I can get live food for him. Hopefully as he gets better from the flukes he will try to eat.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Picture Update and I found something at bottom of tank?*

Hello everyone! Here are some new pics of Raz. Looks a lot better. Sorry for the low light. It doesn't show how bright his color actually is. I also found something weird looking at bottom of his tank. What do you think it is?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey, i don't know what it is. Looks like parasite or poo. Will wait for Sakura or Sena if they now. But i think at least if he got a little better we doing right treatment. I would think continue salt and stress coat double dose. So i think go with the same treatment. 

Definitely if you can get frozen brine shrimp get it. Also i am not sure if you can find frozen daphnia. I know you can also grow it. Not sure how and not sure if you can find it in the stores. I would wait help on it also.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

OKAY MAJOR UPDATE!!! Raz ate 1 brine shrimp!!! I can't believe the one thing I did not try he likes. *palms forehead* My hubs and I are jumping around high fiving each other. LOL!!! You have no idea how long we waited for him to eat anything. OMG! I'm so happy right now. 

Would there be a reason for why he keeps trying to eat more but keeps spitting it out. Is there something blocking him ya think? I know he wants more cause the poor guy is all over the tank looking at me. lol. This is the most activity I have seen him have for awhile.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Keep trying . If he just can eat it will make his immune system stronger so he can fight with disease.
How he doing? How is his scales?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> Keep trying . If he just can eat it will make his immune system stronger so he can fight with disease.
> How he doing? How is his scales?


He ate another BS! Yay! He looks good. Scales look almost normal and his fins are all spread out. Seems feisty and happy. I was so surprised to see him look so good. Wow what a difference from 2 days ago. His color is def coming back. Hopefully I can get a better shot of him tomorrow to post a pic.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hey RedRaz, great news! Hurray! I'm glad he's eating! Every little bit helps. 

Keep up with the salt treatment for at least another 3 or 4 days so we can make sure we're getting all the parasites out.

As for that . . . looks like poo.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Also try pellets too if he refusing then try to crash them see if it helps.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 Thanks! Yeah he has gotten better. I will make sure I keep him on this treatment for at least 4 more days. Every day I will keep everyone updated. 

ANHEL123 I have tried every way to give pellets to Raz. I have soaked it, soaked it in garlic juice, crushed it, soaked in brine shrimp juice and he wont touch them. I even bought 5 different types of pellets and nothing. I offer a pellet to him whenever I can and I always end up scooping it out. IDK why he just don't like pellets. Picky betta indeed. When he saw the brine shrimp he went bonkers, lol! I never seen him like that before.  I'm happy he liked them and that he ate something. I will continue to give him pellets but what if he simply won't eat them? Then what? Could he just eat brine shrimp or blood worms? That is if he will eat blood worms. I'm not sure. Maybe I will try today.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Raz Update picture *

His color is looking much better. More photogenic today.  His scales look good and fins are open not clamped.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Whoohoo Yayy Razz, I am soo glad to hear he is doing better


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

just love to read your update  Keep him on salt don't stop until you give us update. I think it will be his 3rd day on salt?
About food i think he needs time probably . I think when he will be back to normal and when we sure we got rid of all parasites hopefully he will adjusted and eventually start eating.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: He is not swimming as much today. Doesn't have clamped fins but I did notice that the ends of his fins look whiter. His eyes are clear though and he is responsive. He is spending a lot of time at the bottom of the tank. I may be freaking out because my baby betta just died today but still this is a change in his activity which worries me. I must let you know that I accidently gave him a Brine shrimp yesterday that was from the baby bettas water. What I mean is that water that I used to defrost the Brine shrimp was a little from the babies water. I know I am so stupid! I wasn't thinking and has been such a stressful week for me. *sigh* I hope he doesn't catch what she had. Please don't scream at me I have been through enough this week and have been crying all day because I lost my baby Shelby and now I'm sick with worry for my Raz. I don't think anyone can be as hard on me as I already am on myself. 

I did a 100% water change today *preconditioned with 2 teaspoons of AQ salt*. Temperature is at 78 degrees. He was not interested in food today. 

The baby had signs of fuzz and cloudy eyes.  Even though I tried to save her she did not make it. I cannot lose my Raz too. If you have any advice please let me know.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

When you say the ends of his fins are whiter, can you describe it a little more? Does it look at all like new growth? New fin growth is clearish/whiteish.

Most likely, he won't be affected by the water from Shelby's tank. My guess is Shelby's young age and the conditions that Petco baby bettas are typically kept in played a major part in her premature death. I can promise that you did everything you could to save Shelby and she was very fortunate to have you as her owner for her short life. I can also promise that you are taking excellent care of Raz, absolutely excellent care.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Yea, sweetie, don't be hard on yourself, you are doing a wonderful job, Razz is lucky to have such a caring owner, and there could be fin growth if the fins are transparent, did he have ripped fins as well?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> When you say the ends of his fins are whiter, can you describe it a little more? Does it look at all like new growth? New fin growth is clearish/whiteish.
> 
> Most likely, he won't be affected by the water from Shelby's tank. My guess is Shelby's young age and the conditions that Petco baby bettas are typically kept in played a major part in her premature death. I can promise that you did everything you could to save Shelby and she was very fortunate to have you as her owner for her short life. I can also promise that you are taking excellent care of Raz, absolutely excellent care.


Looks clearish white. I took some pictures for you to take a look. I will have to see what new growth looks like. His fins look kinda ragged so perhaps it is. 

My confidence is way down right now with everything that has happened so you saying that means a lot to me. I try so very hard to care for my bettas and geckos. Just hard when things go wrong. Thank you Sakura.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Yea, sweetie, don't be hard on yourself, you are doing a wonderful job, Razz is lucky to have such a caring owner, and there could be fin growth if the fins are transparent, did he have ripped fins as well?


Thank you lelei! Yeah his fins were looking a bit tattered. Could be fin growth then. What are your thoughts from the pic I posted?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That looks like new growth to me.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> That looks like new growth to me.


Yay! Oh that is good news. I hope hope hope he starts getting healthy. I don't think he ever was since I bought him. My poor little guy.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He's a well-loved guy.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

You really doing wonderful job for him 
78* is good temperature for betta but since you treating him with parasites we need to increase the temperature. Are you able to increase the water temperature to 84-86*? Heat makes to speed parasites life cycle and fall them faster.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> You really doing wonderful job for him
> 78* is good temperature for betta but since you treating him with parasites we need to increase the temperature. Are you able to increase the water temperature to 84-86*? Heat makes to speed parasites life cycle and fall them faster.


I am having issues with my heaters. The first heater that I bought was not adjustable and was suppose to maintain a 78 degree temp but never did. I returned that one. The second one I bought was also not adjustable but made the water way too hot and I would have to keep on unplugging it to control the temp so that didn't work because I'm not always home. This heater I have now is adjustable BUT it's really meant for a 5-20 gal tank. So it heats a 1 gal too fast. I'm still trying to figure out a steady controlled setting to adjust it to that is in 84-86 temp with out causing him a lot stress. Has been difficult so far. I'm gradually making my way to that temp. It's 79 degrees right now.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Update on Raz: This morning I found him laying at the bottom breathing rapidly and extremely pale. I quickly put him in a cup so he could get air better. He doesn't look good at all. Should I change his water and up the AQ salt to 3 teaspoons. Should I put those tablets I bought in (All-in-one treatment)? I'm just so sad. My poor guy is deteriorating fast.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Well is too weak and can barely swim. I heated some new water with AQ salt and am floating him in his cup in his tank so the water stays warm for him. I'm gonna go and be with him until he passes.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh no sorry don't know what is the right decision i would put medications . Don't increase salt though.
Put medications slowly dissolve it in the cup first. 
And wait for Sakura to help. I was thinking should you keep him in the salt and medications together?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

so sorry i would still put medications. I don't know what happened he was doing better.... Sorry.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I hesitate to post because I don't want to make you feel any worse than you already do......You are trying so hard and doing great, however, you don't want to over treat-sometimes less is best....I would back off any 100% water changes-and if you have tannins add a lot of them to his small QT container-He needs a low stress area-limited water changes, lots of tannins, salt 2-3tsp/gal, dim lit quiet location, water temp in the 76-77F range-no higher than 79F.....

Good luck and don't give up or be so hard on yourself...You are doing a great job and that is all we can do.....


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Oldfishlady I made the adjustments. His temp is at 77 degrees and will stop the 100% water changes so not to stress him out. I am still waiting for IAL that I ordered. So right now I don't have any put in his tank.  He is in my quiet room with the lights off. Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. 

Sorry I did not update sooner but I had to go to class and take my exam. I barely studied because I've so worried about my Raz and Shelby. When I got home he got happy and tried to swim by the egde of the cup. Poor thing wore himself out just to say hi. It hurts seeing him like this. 

Update on Raz: He is a fighter for sure but poor things is very very weak. Fins are clamping and he barely swims. Also when he tries body is somewhat in a bent position. One of his eyes are cloudy. *sigh* I'm really hoping he pulls through but he is very sick. I'm just trying to make him as comfortable as possible. Please pray for him. My poor sweet little Raz.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

I believe Raz has fin rot  His fins are very frayed and worse then I have ever seen them. Is there anything I can do?


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Hey Red, I know you were trying AQ salt, for that before or for the parasites, if you are using it still, depending on how long you already been using it, I would try to keep up for a few more days, if you are already at the 14 day limit, just use the stress coat, and do the daily water changes, to see if he gets some growth.. I sure hope so, do you see black at the edges?


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Hun, can you also post a new pic possibly? so we can see if it's advanced.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

lelei said:


> Hey Red, I know you were trying AQ salt, for that before or for the parasites, if you are using it still, depending on how long you already been using it, I would try to keep up for a few more days, if you are already at the 14 day limit, just use the stress coat, and do the daily water changes, to see if he gets some growth.. I sure hope so, do you see black at the edges?


He has been on the AQ treatment for 5 days so far. Here is a picture of his fin that looks bad. Yeah the edges look really dark.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh no! I am so very sorry to hear about this, RedRaz. I'm not sure if that is fin rot or if the flukes have torn up his fins. How is he doing now? Is he any better or worse?


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Oh no! I am so very sorry to hear about this, RedRaz. I'm not sure if that is fin rot or if the flukes have torn up his fins. How is he doing now? Is he any better or worse?


Actually He is swimming more which surprised me. His fin has gotten worse since last night.  What should I do? Is there anything I can do?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Is he still in just AQ salt? Can you get hold of any medications like Tetracycline? That is a good med for fin rot. If I'm not too far off, he's probably nearing the end of his salt treatment period (14 days max) so it should be okay to switch him into meds if necessary. Otherwise, clean water and Stress Coat. Also, OFL's advice about tannins is excellent too. If you need IAL, don't hesitate to ask, I can send you some.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Is he still in just AQ salt? Can you get hold of any medications like Tetracycline? That is a good med for fin rot. If I'm not too far off, he's probably nearing the end of his salt treatment period (14 days max) so it should be okay to switch him into meds if necessary. Otherwise, clean water and Stress Coat. Also, OFL's advice about tannins is excellent too. If you need IAL, don't hesitate to ask, I can send you some.


Yeah he is still in AQ salt but I did not do a water change today because he was in bad shape. I just put new water in his cup and floated him. Should I do a 100% water change then? I started salt treatment on Friday. So it's only been 5 days. This one I can order on amazon and do next day shipment. Take a look and see if that is okay. Tetracycline API I have IAL coming but is taking forever. I ordered it from online but they just shipped it today.  *sigh*


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Did you order your IAL from Amy Ketapang in Singapore? If so, it could take a month.  

OFL said not to do 100% water changes if he's really stressed out and breathing hard. If he's doing a little better and more stable, then maybe do a partial change, as much as you can without removing him from the water. But remember how much water you took out because that will dictate how much salt you put back in. Only put back in the same amount of salt that you took out.

Yup, API Tetracycline. You don't have access to a Petsmart? They do sell Tetracycline, if you want to avoid paying extra shipping.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Did you order your IAL from Amy Ketapang in Singapore? If so, it could take a month.
> 
> OFL said not to do 100% water changes if he's really stressed out and breathing hard. If he's doing a little better and more stable, then maybe do a partial change, as much as you can without removing him from the water. But remember how much water you took out because that will dictate how much salt you put back in. Only put back in the same amount of salt that you took out.
> 
> Yup, API Tetracycline. You don't have access to a Petsmart? They do sell Tetracycline, if you want to avoid paying extra shipping.


I bought it from a guy in Florida. Estomated time of delivery is from the 5th to the 10th. *sigh* He is breathing rapidly yes. Should I do a partial change then? My hubs just jumped in his car to rush over to Petsmart. They have some on hold for us. So when I do treat Raz with this medication should I change his water so it doesn't mix with the AQ salt treated water he is in now?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Is he stable enough to do a complete change? Otherwise . . . another option is to get a 1 gal jug and fill it with 5 cups dechlorinated water. When you get the meds, you'll add the first dose to that. I think it is 1 packet. Mix well. Next, get another 1 gal jug or something that holds 1 gallon of water. Fill that with dechlorinated water. Now pour 1/2 cup of the medicated water into this jug. Then fill up his cup with the now medicated water. I know, it's a lot of steps but it's the only safe way to medicate small tanks.

Now, if you ARE able to do a 100% change and remove all the salt and you are going to put him back into the big tank, then you can still use the 5 cup method for preparing the medicine. However, add 1/2 cup of the medicated water for every gallon of his tank. So he would get 1 cup and 1/4 of the medicated water.

I hope I'm not being too confusing. I kinda confused myself there.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Is he stable enough to do a complete change? Otherwise . . . another option is to get a 1 gal jug and fill it with 5 cups dechlorinated water. When you get the meds, you'll add the first dose to that. I think it is 1 packet. Mix well. Next, get another 1 gal jug or something that holds 1 gallon of water. Fill that with dechlorinated water. Now pour 1/2 cup of the medicated water into this jug. Then fill up his cup with the now medicated water. I know, it's a lot of steps but it's the only safe way to medicate small tanks.
> 
> Now, if you ARE able to do a 100% change and remove all the salt and you are going to put him back into the big tank, then you can still use the 5 cup method for preparing the medicine. However, add 1/2 cup of the medicated water for every gallon of his tank. So he would get 1 cup and 1/4 of the medicated water.
> 
> I hope I'm not being too confusing. I kinda confused myself there.


I believe I get it. The first option is for his cup and the second is for his tank right? I don't think he will handle a 100% water change right now. I will do it in his cup. Now in that second jug do I fill it with 5 cups of dechlorinated water as well? Then add the 1/2 cup of medicated water to that jug right?


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

hey guys just want to say my opinion. 
I was thinking if he has flukes which is i think 80-90% is probably right diagnosis ,because of raised scales,then how i understand we need to continue with salt treatment. And in my mind sorry but 100% needed only because flukes not visible to naked eye and we suppose/need to remove them from the water .

Since aquarium salt also antibacterial and antifungal aquarium salt will also take care of fin rot. 

So this is my logic that salt enough for now. We don't want to give him too much. And i think the most important now is flukes, because it can be fatal.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

RedRaz, sorry, I ran off to dinner. The second jug would be filled with a complete gallon.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

so you guys decided not to do salt? What if he still have flukes?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he still has flukes, then hopefully a triple dose of Stress Coat will help him maintain enough slime coat to keep them at bay.

It's up to you, RedRaz, if you want to continue with salt or if you want to treat the rot. The rot isn't *that* bad but with his immune system compromised like this, there's always a chance it could worsen rapidly. But sunlight is also right that if he has flukes still, he needs those taken care of. Kind of a catch-22 really. :/


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Honestly he looks in really bad shape. I don't think anything we do will help at this point. I just don't want to cause him anymore stress. This poor guy has been through so much and it has only been a month. My poor sweet Raz.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

It just if he has flukes they will kind of eat him to death. Sorry tell me if i am wrong i don't want to upset anyone. The linkes that i posted before where people were treating bettas even though they weak. That is why we treating them. But i don't want be the one who people will blame for wrong advice though.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

No, sunlight, you're right. Left untreated, flukes will eventually do just that. Furthermore, the bites they leave tend to get infected with bacteria as well. 

RedRaz, probably best to put him back into AQ water for now if he can handle that. Otherwise, clean water will do fine as well.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

And if you get IAL make sure you rinse them before you put them in.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> It just if he has flukes they will kind of eat him to death. Sorry tell me if i am wrong i don't want to upset anyone. The linkes that i posted before where people were treating bettas even though they weak. That is why we treating them. But i don't want be the one who people will blame for wrong advice though.


Oh I didn't mean you were wrong I agree AQ salt is best for him right now. I'm just sad that nothing is making him feel better. I didn't mean to sound as though I didn't think you were right. I just put him back in AQ salt water and am floating him in his cup so his water temp can stay warm.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You're doing everything you can, RedRaz. Whatever happens, it's definitely not because you didn't try. You're doing an awesome job.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> No, sunlight, you're right. Left untreated, flukes will eventually do just that. Furthermore, the bites they leave tend to get infected with bacteria as well.
> 
> RedRaz, probably best to put him back into AQ water for now if he can handle that. Otherwise, clean water will do fine as well.


Yeah I just put him back in his cup with AQ salt water. I just feel bad for him. Sunlight was right. I apologize if I sounded different about it. I truly didn't mean to. I'm just pretty stressed right now is all.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> And if you get IAL make sure you rinse them before you put them in.


I will def make sure I do that.I hope it comes soon.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You're doing fine, RedRaz. Don't worry. Anyone would understand why you're stressed. 

Just to reiterate, though, using water from Shelby's tank has nothing to do with Raz being so sick. Even if she had something, it wouldn't have struck him this fast. And you used so little water too.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

sorry to say it, but if he will die it not because you was doing salt or water changes. He might die because he is sick unfortunately . You can't say 100% what happened. But i think if you treat something don't stop . Even with people you can't do antibiotic or chemotherapy and stop because person is weak. That is why he has treatment. 
And you doing everything you can for him. Unfortunately with bettas you always have that chance when you buy them sick from the store. I had this experience too. I am sure a lot of people are.

Sorry for saying that. Also i think you need a good sleep.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> sorry to say it, but if he will die it not because you was doing salt or water changes. He might die because he is sick unfortunately . You can't say 100% what happened. But i think if you treat something don't stop . Even with people you can't do antibiotic or chemotherapy and stop because person is weak. That is why he has treatment.
> And you doing everything you can for him. Unfortunately with bettas you always have that chance when you buy them sick from the store. I had this experience too. I am sure a lot of people are.
> 
> Sorry for saying that. Also i think you need a good sleep.


I agree with you to some extent but the treatment wasn't working anymore. I never stopped the AQ salt til 10 mins ago to try a medication. Unfortunately he is too far gone. I will continue with the AQ salt because I just want to make him comfortable right now. No more pain or stress. Thank you all for your help. I'm gonna sign off and be with my Raz. I don't think he will make it through the night. :-(


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry, Raz. Good night and I'll be thinking of you.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

oh no.... D: this is so sad....


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Update on Raz*

So last night Raz was on his side barely breathing. I placed his tank closer to me so I can be near him and watch him. I said my goodbyes and told him I'm sorry and just cried myself to sleep. I woke up at 4 am and looked into his tank and saw a little figure moving around. It was kinda dark still in my room so I squinted and then rubbed my eyes because how can he be swimming? So I got up and turned on the hallway light so I can see him better but not wake my husband. He was swimming in his cup!!! I pinched myself just in case it was one of those dreams that you can't tell if it is real or not. That pinch hurt! I was awake and my Raz is swimming and still alive!!!!! Oh my goodness he looked so bad last night that I thought he did pass. Hardly any breathing and this morning he is completely swimming around his cup. I have no idea what worked and I have no idea how he is still alive. He is a fighter and I am thrilled he mad it is still holding on! This betta continues to surprise me everyday. 

His fins are more torn up today then last night though. I took a few pictures so you all can see. 

Thank you all for helping and supporting Raz and I. I appreciate all your help with this. I feel so blessed to have each and every one of you here caring for Raz as much as I do. *hugs* Let's hope he can recover. I dragged the 10 gal tank (that i bought weeks ago) from the living room into the shelving unit across from his tank. Just showing him that when he gets better that tank is all for him. I don't know if it helps but I just want him to know I will not give up and I believe he CAN make a full recovery. 

I had a question. Should I keep him in his cup floating in his tank and just fill new AQ treated water into his cup to refresh it and remove some of those flukes? He is swimming around but I'm not quite sure he can handle a 1 gal tank right now.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Also the IAL will be here by Friday! An awesome seller that I bought plants from online is having it sent for free.  Now when I get that I should rinse them well and put the whole leaf depending on size in his tank? I never worked with this before and am trying to read up on IAL now. I thought I would ask you all first.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Since tannins are a natural product you can't overdose them. When I have a really stressed fish-I like to make the water as dark as possible-so dark I can barely see the fish....

I don't rinse mine-I crush and add to both the QT I have the fish and in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water so they can start to steep..

The longer they steep-the more tannins released-the darker the water-the more the Betta will like it. I don't worry about the leaf bits in the water and the Betta often will pick at the microorganisms that form as well as use the leaf bits to feel more secure.

Tannins have antibacterial/fungal properties, help ease stress, toughen fins/scales to name a few good things about them.
Remembering that water temps greater than 110F will kill the antibacterial/fungal properties.

Keep us posted....


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> Since tannins are a natural product you can't overdose them. When I have a really stressed fish-I like to make the water as dark as possible-so dark I can barely see the fish....
> 
> I don't rinse mine-I crush and add to both the QT I have the fish and in a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water so they can start to steep..
> 
> ...


The AQ salt water would be okay with the IAL? His temp in the tank is 78 degrees right now. Is that okay?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, it is fine to use them together and your temp is fine too....
Keep us posted....


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

well he looked really bad yesterday and looks better today i would think whatever you did yesterday is right so i would continue to do it to make sure we get rid of the flukes. And aq salt with flukes you can use up to 13 days. You need to be sure to get rid of them so they do't eat him.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Oldfishlady said:


> Yes, it is fine to use them together and your temp is fine too....
> Keep us posted....


Thank you! As soon as I get the IAL leaves I will add them. I'm hoping he pulls through. Raz my little fighter. He is swimming a lot more and very responsive. Should I try adding him to his tank (1 gal)? Right now he is in his cup and I'm floating the cup.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

Not sure but i don't see why not. I think 1 gall is fine. I always afraid that the cups are small and he can jump out. And you can lower the water in his hospital tank. Well can you keep his temperature stable in 1 gall? I know you floating his cup in 10 gall


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

sunlight said:


> Not sure but i don't see why not. I think 1 gall is fine. I always afraid that the cups are small and he can jump out. And you can lower the water in his hospital tank. Well can you keep his temperature stable in 1 gall? I know you floating his cup in 10 gall


I think he will be okay in the 1 gal hospital tank and seems quite annoyed he is in his cup. He never liked that thing. I don't blame him either. I have the temp finally at a stable steady regulation now. Seems to work better with him too before I put him in cup that is. I guess I can try and just keep his cup near by if any problems. If I lower the water though in his tank I don't believe I could regulate the heat because it's a big heater and needs a certain water level to work. 

I am floating him in his cup in his 1 gal hospital tank. I never set up the ten gal. His 2.5 gal is being cleaning out right now.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

It better to keep him where you can keep stable temperature.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

His cup then. Should I add new water to his cup then? Or at least the water from his tank. Since he was never in the tank when I put new AQ aged water yesterday. Might rid some of the flukes in his cup? Ya think that is a good idea?


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

i would keep him in his water and just change it with his next scheduled time


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

RedRaz, this is fantastic news! What a little fighter! Go Raz! I'm so glad he made it through the night.

I agree with sunlight, keep him wherever you can keep him the most stable. If that's his cup then just change it out frequently. A good way to do this is to premix a gallon of AQ water. Then you just pour it in as necessary.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> RedRaz, this is fantastic news! What a little fighter! Go Raz! I'm so glad he made it through the night.
> 
> I agree with sunlight, keep him wherever you can keep him the most stable. If that's his cup then just change it out frequently. A good way to do this is to premix a gallon of AQ water. Then you just pour it in as necessary.


I know he is such a fighter. I never met such an amazing little fish. Okay that sounds good. I have some premixed sitting on the side. Actually I have 2 gals sitting on the side. I wanna be as prepared as possible. 

Raz has been swimming here and there but gets easily freaked out. So I'm keeping him in dim lighting and very quiet. His back fin is getting pretty thin. I hope that it will stop. Other then that his color is good and his eyes are clear.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yep, definitely keep him dim and quiet. If he gets hyper he could get stressed and stressed leads to sick. 

Go Raz!


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

still refusing to eat?
Guys anyone knows what is supa tonic salt ? It from pet store, is it aquarium salt.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

He ate on Saturday but hasn't since. Took me so long to get him to eat that. Now again he won't eat.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

_Oh Red, I was just reading the story I missed a lot, I had to come and see how you and Razz are doing, I couldnt log on too long last night, was tired..when I saw the part you said your good byes, I wanted to just reach out and hug you, omg, I know how you are feeling after Shelby.._

_I couldnt imagine, my tears was blocking me from reading the rest..then I saw he made it thru the night, You are doing an amazing job..and your razz is strong..and he is fighting hard..my thoughts and prayers are with you both..and even tho he is struggling he is doing it with someone who has been by his side the whole time..and he knows it _

_You stay strong too..It is soo hard I know to see your lil guy go thru this.. but we will help you get thru it_


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

sunlight, I think they are AQ salts since the box says it can be used to acclimate fish from brackish waters. It's apparently the UK's version.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

*Raz Update*

Well this is how his tail looks now.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Have you seen any more rubbing or darting from him, like he might still have flukes? 

If things don't improve, perhaps a parasite med such as Seachem ParaGuard is in order.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Have you seen any more rubbing or darting from him, like he might still have flukes?
> 
> If things don't improve, perhaps a parasite med such as Seachem ParaGuard is in order.


No he has been calm. The only time he freaks out is when I have to do the water change. I am as gentle as I can be but it's hard on the poor thing. 

You think he will be able to handle a med again?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm not sure. ParaGuard would act differently than the antibiotic erythromycin does but I think it would probably be best to keep him in AQ salt for the full 14 days and see if that does the trick before we try meds again. But if after the full salt treatment ends and he still is sick, we may need to consider it.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm not sure. ParaGuard would act differently than the antibiotic erythromycin does but I think it would probably be best to keep him in AQ salt for the full 14 days and see if that does the trick before we try meds again. But if after the full salt treatment ends and he still is sick, we may need to consider it.


Okay I will purchase it now so I have it just in case we need it. My poor little guy.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm not sure. ParaGuard would act differently than the antibiotic erythromycin does but I think it would probably be best to keep him in AQ salt for the full 14 days and see if that does the trick before we try meds again. But if after the full salt treatment ends and he still is sick, we may need to consider it.


Is this the one? Paraguard amazon


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yup, that's it. It's a good med to have on hand because it treats a lot of external parasites.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks Sakura. Im on my way to the ER. My mom had a procedure done yesterday and she is bleeding heavily from the wound. I won't be able to do updates till I find out how my mom is. :-(


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear that, RedRaz. You're going through a lot of bad stuff right now. Your mom will be in my thoughts along with Raz.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Hey Sakura8. It's been an exhausting week for sure. She is doing better thank you.

Update on Raz: He is quite pale and swimming less today. Tail doesn't seem to have anymore loss from what I can tell. He is still hanging in there though.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hang in there, RedRaz. You and Raz both.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

I say this with a very heavy heart...My Raz passed early this morning. He was such a fighter til the end. Swim in peace my sweet Raz. 

Thank you everyone for caring so much for Raz and helping through all this. You don't know how much I appreciate all that.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

D: I'm honored to have witnessed his fighted to the end. My deepest condolences ...


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

aokashi said:


> D: I'm honored to have witnessed his fighted to the end. My deepest condolences ...


Thank you aokashi. I appreciate that.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh Raz so sorry he was such a fighter and you did everything you could. He felt your love.


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## sainthogan (Sep 27, 2012)




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## NormaCarts (Oct 4, 2012)

Gosh I am new here and have just read through all of this.......I am so sorry you went through all of this big hugs xxx

I dont think I could cope with all these illnesses they are so tempramental :-O


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Thank you ANHEL123, sainthogan, NormaCarts. I appreciate the support. I look over to where his tank is and just feel so much more empty and lonely. My poor guy. Maybe one day I can make room for another betta but for right now it hurts way too much.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I am so, so, so sorry, RedRaz. You did everything you could to save him and I know he truly appreciated all the great care you gave him.


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## RedRaz (Sep 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I am so, so, so sorry, RedRaz. You did everything you could to save him and I know he truly appreciated all the great care you gave him.


Thank you so much for helping me through everything. I would have been lost with out everyone's guidance and support. *hugs*


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