# opinions on sororities



## fishyface323 (Jan 25, 2014)

I just want thoughts:
Do you think sorority tanks are a good or a bad idea? 
Just for a guideline, five females in a ten gallon tank. 
I'm thinking of not doing it, because I've heard a lot of negative opinions.


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## PieTime (Mar 16, 2014)

It really depends on the individual personalities of the fish, but I've never had any issues with sororities. Just make sure you have tons of hiding places, and distribute food throughout the tank at feeding time.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I find it to be a bad idea for several reasons . It's a phenomenon that's mostly only advised in this site for some reason . I've been keeping fish for 22yrs and never heard of betta sororities till a couple yrs ago in this site . I was floored to hear so many people trying it . Unfortunately a large majority if these tanks do crash from disease . It's a high stress environment for fish that wouldn't choose to live together .. Especially not in confined space . The logic behind this was spilled over from African cichlid keeping for some reason . The spreading aggression by overstocking and such . The largest issue with this is that they aren't African cichlids . 

I keep the more rowdy aggressive African cichlids and I understand overstocking and have learned how and why you do it . This is a hierarchy they will naturally develop both in the wild and in your hone aquaria . This method works well with these highly aggressive fish . I find in my tank if an unfit cichlid is put in with them it's killed within it's 1st hr. While I know that sounds really bad but the truth is you'd rather face that then a stressed fish swimming around till it dies of disease . The disease would then cause havoc on the rest of your stock. This is what happens with betta sororities . They aren't equipped with the teeth that African cichlids have that help eliminate poor stocking choices quickly . You can't use a survival of the fittest mentality on fish that don't have the ability to show quickly who is the fittest. My cichlids are happily living 20fish in 72gallons. Even the fry of the tank boss is living very well amongst much larger fish .. He's my best example of how this setting can work. Cones out very proud of himself at feeding time very unafraid amongst a bunch if murderous larger fish . I have to say the premise behind this tank works fantastically and is very fun ... But should not be applied to such fundamentally different fish . 

There are plenty other fun stocking choices for a 10g that wouldn't stress the inhabitants . A 10g nano fish tank is wide open to wonderful nano fish choices . Or a betta with a nice school of dwarf corys . The world of fish is too large for me to advise to keep anyone in less then desirable conditions 





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## fishyface323 (Jan 25, 2014)

When I first heard about it I was excited. I didn't know that bettas coul live together, or with other fish! Now I know that they're better on their own, and I hope people who start sororities know what they're getting into.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Agent13, the idea of betta sororities have been around for a while. A quick google search turned up posts on them (not on this site) from 2007 and as bettas have been kept and bred in captivity for several decades now, it is most likely not a new phenomena. Just probably one you are unlikely to hear about unless you are in the betta hobby. 

I have mixed views on betta sororities. Some individuals find that perfect blend of females and have no issues at all. Others seem to face disaster after disaster, whether it is due to disease, aggression or issues with water quality. 

I did enjoy my sorority when I had it. It was an unexpected ammonia spike that inevitably killed most of my fish off after a year or so of being set up. I did lose females from time to time, but I have always had mixed success with my bettas in general and when I kept fancy bettas none of mine seemed to live beyond a couple of years - whether they were alone or in a sorority setting. 

The decision is really up to you. It can be devastating to lose a whole tank of fish, but that is the risk you run when you have a sorority. There are probably more cons to a sorority than pros, but I won't say that a sorority is 100% wrong, and that you are a selfish person for even contemplating setting one up.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Thanks fishyface for bringing this discussion to the table . It's encouraging for me to see the number of people I've seen today listening and learning . I appreciate your honesty. I can see how tempting it would be coming here and seeing a number if people doing this . Truth is you're right .. Bettas are best alone... But I can't leave out that there are some fish you can put them with. The larger your tank the more options there are . However with eachother is rarely one I'd recommend . 


LBF, I'd never say someone was selfish for trying this . I'm always one willing to do some experimental fishkeeping so that would be hypocritical . 

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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

fishyface323 said:


> I just want thoughts:
> Do you think sorority tanks are a good or a bad idea?
> Just for a guideline, five females in a ten gallon tank.
> I'm thinking of not doing it, because I've heard a lot of negative opinions.


1: Depends. They are more challenging, and need a lot more work than just keeping the fish separate.

2: I have seen someone put 12 in a 10 gallon tank... I find, that 4 or 5 worked best for ME... I preferred a larger tank as the more space there is, the less stressful it is. 

Just because someone had a bad experience, they never ever want to do it again or want others to do it. My personal experience? Good AND bad. I have had luck... then I had some real nasty luck. I had to find better ways to make it easier on me to keep them, and easier on them to get along. I made sure to have a minimum of 4-6 females, and liked having them in a 20-50 gallon tank... Stuffed full of live and fake plants, driftwood and décor... Plus a heater and a filter. I kept them very well fed so they didn't have to "compete" for food.

WARNING: Sororities are not for the weak at heart. Many females are even more tough and violent as some males. Some females can get hurt or killed. Some females MUST be alone. One gets sick... They all can get sick.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I did a google search .. Interesting . I do see it's on other sites ... However I also find it's not going back further then 2006-2007? Perhaps I need to do a longer search . So this is a relatively new thing which makes sense as that's about how long a fad in fish keeping is generally around before it's phased out due to failure rates . 


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I wouldn't think you are getting an accurate sampling of betta keepers based on this forum alone (majority of members being from Canada/America). There also seems to be a lot of novice fish keepers on this forum, and I have seen many people set up sororities without understanding fundamentals of the hobby such as cycling a tank. As such, I would expect such tanks to end in disaster. 

People over in Europe and down here in Australia also have sorority tanks. I'm not sure in non-english speaking countries what sororities are called, but I have seen them before on French and German fish forums. 

Many breeders also house their sibling females together in sorority set-ups. 

I did find an article dating back to 2002 and then others in the 2004-2005 bracket. I'm sure people were housing female bettas together before that. It may just be the name 'betta sorority' was coined at a later date.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know someone who bred bettas back in '94. NO internet, no forums. Just whatever he could find in books. Trial and error, he finally got into a good rhythm. He kept the females together, with even some of the males, until aggression would surface - then the aggressor or "underdog" were removed. Other than that they were left together. in the 55 cycled growout. 

But he never called it a sorority either. :lol: It was just normal to keep siblings together, except for the aggressive ones.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

So that sounds like breeders of many animals . Being in the reptile community I know many breeders keep female siblings together of several types of dragons .. Males are removed once they're old enough to sex. Females (unless aggressive !) are housed together till sold , which is usually still a bit young. What a breeder would do is far different then what they would advise to a hobbyist . Risks are taken with breeders .. This is normal and totally acceptable . I'd expect the same from betta breeders . I'm sure it's talked about in forums or in real life by breeders no different then dragon breeders . I don't count what breeders or stores do into things I'd suggest for hobbyists . My female bearded dragon was kept with her sisters till I bought her yet I'd never in a million yrs recommend anyone keep bearded dragons together . Success vs failure rate speaks volumes . Same with my frilled dragons .. The female was kept with her siblings till sold to her 1st owner .. In fact the male was too . Only dragon I ever acquired from a breeder to ever be kept by itself was my male bearded dragon . I'm sorry if it seems unrelated to discuss this but I find it to be very similar as I'd not use breeder standards for myself as I'm a hobbyist . 


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Actually that is a very similar example that is still fairly relevant! I have seen beardie owners do just fine with multiple females in a huge enclosure. But.... A lot of cases result in injury or death. I would never keep a male and female together EVER. And I am too wimpy to even think about having female beardies together :lol:

Just shows that animals who prefer to be alone... Prefer to be alone.


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## Blue Fish (Jun 11, 2012)

I have a sorority, and like Sena, I've had mixed results, but I completely second what she's said previously on this thread. 

I keep about 12 girls in a 40 gallon that is *very* heavily planted, the entire back wall is a faux slate wall that has lots of hidey holes and places to rest, I watch my girls carefully, all the time, and if someone starts acting stressed, she is removed and "retired" before something terrible happens. I've got a girl right now waiting to move into a custom cube for just this reason. She needed to be retired from the stress. 

Prior to this, I had about seven girls who lived in a 30g, and I moved them to a 20g long because the footprint was the same (so same amount of surface area, just less depth that they didn't use anyway...) and this was a MAJOR mistake. Girls who had been living happily for months suddenly went on rampages, and several died from stress-born disease. I quickly moved them back into the 30g, and then into the 40gB, but it was an important lesson to learn. I have more luck with understocking, following the 1 fish per 2 gallon rule of thumb. That being said, technically I could keep 20 females in the 40g...but there will NEVER be that many girls in there. They seem quite happy right now at about 12, so that's where they'll stay. 

One other thing I totally agree with the others about is water quality. The tanks have to be SUPER clean, VERY well cycled, well maintained, and general fish health has to be high to avoid disease outbreaks. I'm actually looking into getting a small UV light to go over a second filter for the sorority just because of this. A UV light will help to cut down on nastiness in the water and keep them healthier. 

Another couple of things to mention...don't stock a sorority full of expensive fish. I know many people who have done this...and it's like Murphy's Law...something is going to go wrong, and that's a lot of money down the drain. I sound so heartless, and ALL lives are important, but if you're going to do this...save a petstore girl. Give her a life of warm, clean water and good food...and hope for the best. Even if something happens in the sorority, she was better off in there than she was dying of ammonia poisoning in a petstore cup. 

Live plants make a sorority SO much easier to keep. They help so much with the cycle, or to buffer it, and they provide a much more natural habitat. It may just be my imagination, but I swear my girls are more relaxed and happier in the now fully planted tank than they were with either all silk plants or partial silk/partial live. 

Get them all about the same age. I introduce new girls into my group every now and again, but if you have younger girls and older girls (like a year plus) it is very, very hard on the older ones to have to deal with these new, younger, stronger, and generally more aggressive females. This is why my oldest girl was "retired" a short while ago. She started clamping, skulking in the bottom of the tank, and looked generally miserable. It's taken her a little time in her new, private live planted 2.5 gallon (soon to be upgraded to a 7g cube), but she's starting to "come out of her shell", unclamping, swimming around, interacting, dancing for food...she's finally feeling safe again.  You need to be prepared for this sort of eventuality with girls...when one doesn't work out, you'll need to be prepared to find her a new home, or to give her her own space.


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I've been paying attention to these sorority threads for a while now and a pretty common thing I've seen is the removal of a fish setting chaos into motion.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

i do suspect that there is an alpha dominance mentality that bettas take time to establish. once when the hierarchy is established, usually there would be very little outbreaks of aggression since everyone understands their place. any time there is a disruption, aggression breaks out which makes sense since everyone is attempting to contest dominance.

i remember Bettysplendens writing an article of how a male was kept in the the spawning tank, well fed, along with the free swimming fry. the fry grew but amazingly enough, apparently no outbreaks of aggression occurred well into sexual maturity between males. however it was also noted that all of them were dull colored and displayed the 2 horizontal bars. we apparently know that the fry ended up being sexually mature, because the one time aggression did break out, it was with the alpha female of that spawn, who ended up spawning with her father. at this point the experiment was shut down since the 2nd generation of fry wouldnt make it. 

here's the interesting part--upon separation, the males automatically started turning dark and colorful, flaring and showing aggression amongst siblings.

so following observations can be made
1) presence of dominant male from the start can potentially negate any aggression since hierarchy has been established.

2) removal of dominant male, disrupts hierarchy, and alpha position is contested.

it is unknown whether or not the fish were truly stressed (apparently healthy enough to breed) so, this leads to a few possible conclusions about dull coloration and horizontal stripes: horizontal striping is not only an indicator of stress, but it could be used by a betta to signal to other bettas that it recognizes its role in the pecking order as an attempt to avoid further harassment. bright vivid colors on bettas signify dominance or the ability to contest for dominance. 

http://www.bettysplendens.com/leaving-father-with-fry-method.html


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

But I must ask .. How long till bettas are sexually mature ? 4-5months ? So at best this method is only successful for 6months ? Ehh.. I'm still not convinced 


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## karenluvsbettas623 (Jul 13, 2013)

I'm not trying to be negative but i'm just speaking from my own personal experience. I collected several female bettas of various colors before i put them together and while i prepared the tank. In that time i kept them each in 1gal bowls and they were happy, bright colors, intact fins. Once you put them in the tank you see them deteriorate. Nipped fins, dulled colors, stress stripes, so many loses. I started with 15 females in a 55gal now down to just 3 which i am about to take them out. I am currently trying to breed and plan on keeping some female's for a sorority, my hope is that they have a better chance at getting along if they were raised together but i could be wrong. My personal opinion is that they are always better off kept alone whenever possible.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

My best sorority was 4 sibling females. Tried adding New girls, a completely different sororitt of non-related females... More females.... Nope. Still remained my best. I probably won't do it again  too much work and worry! :lol: 

If anyone wants to do a sorority PLEASE have a backup plan and be ready to tear it down if something happens. That means they'll need housing for each one.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

I haven't owned a female before,but if I did I would keep her in her own tank,like my males.I would be too nervous to have a sorority,seeing them all together looks great,but I would be too worried about them attacking each other or passing anything between them.It just seems a bit too unpredictable.It would be a constant worry watching out for signs of aggression etc,rather than an enjoyment to me.

I like to keep my Bettas safe & separate in their own tanks.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Agent13 said:


> But I must ask .. How long till bettas are sexually mature ? 4-5months ? So at best this method is only successful for 6months ? Ehh.. I'm still not convinced
> 
> 
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The experiment ended because Betty chose the experiment to end, not because the experiment failed. So at best, we can say that keeping large groups of bettas together long-term under an established alpha male is inconclusive.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know a few people who do it. But.... They are seasoned aquarists, and they've done a lot to get to that point. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone new to fish keeping.


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I'll be honest though .. This makes more sense then "sororities ". There are fatalities ( the eaten fry) but I guess there's a trade off when saving space by keeping your fish together . 


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Some of us briefly had this convo yesterday. For a little while I'd been wondering if it was unfair to the fish to put them in an environment so much unlike their natural environment as far as proximity to other bettas goes. It seems like having them be together with them having little tiffs every once in a while can be super stressful. But so many people here do it that I've kind of shrugged it off. I had started a sorority in my 55 gallon last summer. But I think there wasn't enough plant cover at the top, and they fought a lot. They ganged up on the smaller one and she wasn't able to get to the top to eat because she was bullied so much. I separated her until she got bigger and then put her back. My oldest female randomly got dropsy and died. At the time I didn't know the cause but thinking back on it she probably caught something because of stress. It was suggested that I put them in a smaller tank with a lot of plants and they did much better in my 10 gallon. But every once in a while I'll see almost all of them with rips in their fins or chunks bitten out of them (except my bright red one- she's obviously the alpha and I've only seen her with a torn fin twice).
So after the conversation yesterday and seeing other people talk about how they don't really agree with sororities, I realized I wasn't alone in thinking this way, and it made me decide to give away 6 of them and just keep two and divide my 10 gallon. I actually have a thread up in the Classifieds section- I'm giving them away but my requirement is that they not be put in another sorority, obviously, because that's why I'm giving them away in the first place.
Here's my thread in the classified section:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=379010


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## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

I wonder how many failures go unreported. No doubt there is a strong desire for it to work, so I would not be surprised if people where not sharing the bad of it. I really think it's great that people in the thread have been honest with their results.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

My sorority tank has been up for 18 months now. I agree with many things already posted. Many ups and downs along the way. It helps to have a good alpha female. My best alpha was like a cop in the tank. I took her out to breed her and chaos broke out until she returned. After returning she had to fight to regain her place , not easy when weakened from spawning. As Sena mentioned some nasty girls just will never work out in a sorority (Peaches lol). I will float a bad girl in a clear cup for a day, it knocks them down a little in the pecking order. Lots of plants, vertical if possible to break sightlines. I like a crap load of hormwort. Many hide spots to get away from others. Betta like to *bump*, what I mean is look at each other and one will do a short chase, often only to get bumped 5 seconds later by the one that ran away. Its often playful and fry start doing this behaviour at 2 weeks old. Normal. When chases are long back and forth with nips its timeout and if no changes removal is a must. Sibling sisters get along way better in sororities generally. If adding to a sorority add 2+ at a time if possible. The sorority tank is my favorite. Lots of drama and the way the girls communicate by *flare dancing* is fascinating at times.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Haha Peaches... She was a right out b----.... Tried to breed her and she killed one male (overnight). And he was a tough boy.


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## Blue Fish (Jun 11, 2012)

amphirion said:


> i do suspect that there is an alpha dominance mentality that bettas take time to establish. once when the hierarchy is established, usually there would be very little outbreaks of aggression since everyone understands their place. any time there is a disruption, aggression breaks out which makes sense since everyone is attempting to contest dominance.
> 
> i remember Bettysplendens writing an article of how a male was kept in the the spawning tank, well fed, along with the free swimming fry. the fry grew but amazingly enough, apparently no outbreaks of aggression occurred well into sexual maturity between males. however it was also noted that all of them were dull colored and displayed the 2 horizontal bars. we apparently know that the fry ended up being sexually mature, because the one time aggression did break out, it was with the alpha female of that spawn, who ended up spawning with her father. at this point the experiment was shut down since the 2nd generation of fry wouldnt make it.
> 
> ...


From a zoological perspective, this is a *fascinating* article, particularly with the colors and the stripes. Thanks for sharing it!


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## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Blue Fish said:


> From a zoological perspective, this is a *fascinating* article, particularly with the colors and the stripes. Thanks for sharing it!



I can not deny that it indeed is very intriguing to read . It's important to understand all of this . 


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## Alphahelix (Dec 7, 2013)

Hmmmmm- I've had supremely great luck with my sorority actually- I have 10 females currently and have had it up since early January with no problems in the fighting department? I've had two or three catch something but it doesn't spread majorly and was an odd sickness with little/no symptoms. It's still early though so I should probably hold my breath for another several months.

The first set are all related, then I've added fish as I found them until I maxed it out at 10 (it's in a divided section of a 20 gallon- about 12 ish gallons total) bright colors, everyone eats, I can't even tell who is dominant. I didn't realize how tricky it is usually. Though my tank was fully cycled and I've been keeping fish a looooong time lol.

I really love mine a lot- it's a lot of fun to watch and since the fish seem happy and healthy (they often look like puppies swimming over each other for food) I'd never even thought of them not being ok together. Very interesting as while I knew people thought sororities were not advised in general, I didn't realize it was because of quality of life versus difficulty.


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