# Betta fish depressed? PLEASE HELP



## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I think my Betta (Bill) is depressed or he has some form of sickness that I am unsure about.. someone please help.. 
Here is a bit about him, his tank etc; 

Housing 
Bill is in a 20litre tank and he has been for about 2/3 months now
His tank temp is usually 24 to 26 degrees Celsius 
His tank does have a filter that is always on at about a medium filter setting
He doesn't have an air stone or any aeration
His tank is heated/ has a heater and the tempurature is usually 24 - 26 degrees Celsius 
Bill has no other tank mates

Food
I usually feed Bill "BettaMin" fish flakes as he usually spits pellets out. 
I feed Bill his fish flakes every day

Maintenance 
I do half water changes every 2 weeks, last Sunday I did a full tank clean
I usually put a stress coat in with his water as well as PH regulators

His water PH is at about 7.2 

Symptoms and Treatment
Bills fins look "scraggly" and one of his side fins is clear almost see through when it should be blue, like he has lost his scales.
I started working about a month ago and since then I never see him anymore even when I come home, he is usually hiding/sleeping and on weekends he isn't coming out to see me.
I only really just noticed his symptoms today.
I was treating Bill for Fin Rot about 5 or so months ago
I'm unsure of how old Bill is as I got him from the pet store. 


Should I treat Bill again for fin rot? or is this a fungal infection, I am from Australia also so my water temp wont be in Fahrenheit it's in degrees celsius. Someone please help... meanwhile I am going to do a half water change and get his PH to about 7.0 :-(


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

He is probably suffering from water conditions. 50% every other week is not enough for a 20 liter tank. You should be doing 50% twice a week, and testing his water regularly. Toxins can build up faster than you would expect. If you don't have a testing kit, take a sample of his water before a water change to your local pet store and ask them to test it. Most stores will do so for free.

You want his water to be:
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates less than 20 (ideal), or less than 40 (not as good but not horrible)

If ammonia or nitrites are anything but 0, it's time for a water change. If nitrites are at around 40 or above, it's time for a water change. Test before a water change, not after, for accurate understanding of his conditions.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I will start testing and changing more regularly, I just did a half water change then and last week he had a full water change and I cleaned his tank, hosed it out, cleaned his rocks and everything, when should I do another full water change? this is the first time I have had a fish, let alone one that requires a lot of attention, I've googled tips and things to try and learn more about Bettas but I'm not an expert and I feel awful knowing he's not happy so I really want him to be happy, he started out in like a 5 liter tank but I felt that was cruel so I upgraded him to his 20liter and I think he likes it, he's got two things he can hide in and a few plastic plants (not sharp or pointy) and one of those plastic leaf hammocks so he can rest on, I am trying but some things do go wrong and I need a little help  

I don't have a water test kit that tells me the ammonia or nitrates, it just tells me the PH. I test the PH before his water change and try to not have the PH a too high difference from his water before I changed it because I read this could cause stress? 

Thanks for replying also


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I also put some BettaFix in which was what I was using to treat his fin rot as his fins and scales aren't looking to good, would this be a bad idea? I didn't think it'd hurt to?:question::-?:sad:


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

20 liters is a perfect size. If I've translated it right, it comes to about 5 US gallons, which is my favorite for bettas. It's big enough for swimming room, but small enough to fit comfortably on a desk or bookshelf.

Don't worry about the PH. Bettas can adapt to many ranges of PH, as long as it stays steady that is just fine. 

Invest in a liquid water testing kit, even if you have to save up for it. A liquid test kit is one of the best tools that you will have at your disposal for fish health. Most problems are caused initially by poor water conditions, and if you keep the water, you keep the fish.

Since you have a filter, I strongly recommend that you _never_ do a 100% water change. Instead, you should cycle your tank.

Cycling is easy! If you don't have a liquid test kit to keep track, just change the water 50% every other day. Assuming your filter is decent, the tank will cycle by itself in about 6-8 weeks. Take a sample to your local fish store at least once a week to keep tabs on what the water's doing. The water should never get too bad, as long as you change it every other day. 

That sounds like an awful lot of work, but once the tank is cycled, you can reduce water changes, which is simply wonderful for your back, and for your fish's stress levels and general health.

You'll know when your tank is cycled because ammonia and nitrite will stay at 0, and nitrates will start rising.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

JessikaSky said:


> I also put some BettaFix in which was what I was using to treat his fin rot as his fins and scales aren't looking to good, would this be a bad idea? I didn't think it'd hurt to?:question::-?:sad:


If you ask different people, they will give you different answers. A number of people swear that Bettafix is bad for labyrinth breathers and will cause your fish to die. I do not believe this --API is a good company, it's not like it's made4 by Top Fin-- and have used Bettafix many times with no ill effect. It does seem to help with fin growth and as a good general preventative to avoid infection, but nice, clean water is all you really need.

I have found Indian Almond Leaf to be similarly effective with wound treatment and fin regrowth, with some additional benefits. It will stain your water an amber color, which some people like and some people don't, but the tannins (that is the mix of chemicals that are staining the water) are soothing to bettas, and calm them when they are under stress.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Thank you so much!, you've been so helpful! I will buy one asap, I work and get paid weekly so money isn't an issue for me, I'll go out tomorrow to some pet stores and see if I can locate one if not I will get onto Ebay, cycling the tank does sound much easier, but I don't mind the work, but if it's stressful for my fishie then I will give the cycling a go! 

Should I keep doing the BettaFix? even if he doesn't have fin rot, although his scales don't look too healthy, would it hurt?

Also, could he perhaps be constipated? since he eats fish flakes every day, he has been looking a little bloated perhaps, should I give him a boiled pea with the skin off? I read that helps 

One more question, do you think a live plant would be a good idea? I've been wanting to get one for awhile now but I don't have dirt in his tank, just some coloured (safe) rocks that came with the fish tank I bought.

I have had Bill for about 6 months now, and when I bought him from the pet store his fins weren't in very good condition, he was in a square glass display jar that was tiny, it was probably about a litres worth of water in there! I was so upset when I saw how bad his fins were and I rushed out and got something, anything to help in the slightest and I got the BettaFix, and it started working within the week! I am really really impressed it smells nice too! (to me anyway lol) 

I feel like I must be doing something semi alright as I read Bettas can die really easily due to stress, poor water condition and temperature, and I've had him for half a year now.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

If he isn't actually sick, don't bother with the bettafix. It's better to avoid chemical medications when disease isn't present. But, if you can buy Indian Almond Leaf - either online or in a pet shop - that is _always _good for your betta. Just rinse it off in tap water and drop it in. It'll float for a couple of days, and then sink. The bettafix does smell nice though, doesn't it? 

Don't feed your betta peas. Since they are vegetable matter and bettas are carnivores, the bettas cannot process the plant material. Peas work great for goldfish, not so much for bettas. If you need a laxative, you can buy frozen daphnia at most pet shops. It's both nutritious and works to...keep things moving. Unscented Epsom Salt also works.

For now, if he's looking bloated, just skip a day or two of feeding. That won't hurt him. It'll let his tummy clear out, which is good for digestion. I do recommend switching to pellets - flakes seem to make them more susceptible to bloat. The ideal pellet is around 40% (more if you can get it!) protein, and the first three or four ingredients should be fish, fish meal, krill, or other meat ingredients. Don't buy anything that has wheat, grain or other fillers in the top 4. Fillers are expected, but not healthy in high amounts.

Live plants are always good. Always! As long as there's room to for him to swim, you can't have too many plants. Check in the planted tank forum for more details on that. There are some plants that don't need dirt or substrate and will be quite happy floating in the water, or tied to a few pebbles.

Around here, a liter is really good for a display, the poor guys get little cups, and if they are lucky they get changed once a week. 

Medication shopping list: Aquarium Salt, Unscented Epsom Salt, Triple Sulfa, Methylene Blue. There's no urgency - you don't need any of those right now, but if you have problems, they are all nice to have on-hand. Each one serves a different purpose.

You're doing just fine. Don't worry about anything you didn't know - the fact you are here means you care, and all we can do is work with what we know and do our best.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I have stopped with the BettaFix, and I'm going to see if I can find the Indian Almond leaf - I'm hoping they have it since I'm in Australia. I'll see if I can get one of the two laxatives you suggested, I've been wanting to get aquarium salt for a few weeks now so I will definitely invest in some again I really hope one of the pet stores as it here, you'd think they would so I'm hoping. 

I just checked both his flakes and pellets I have and they both have 2 of the fillers you mentioned in the top 4, the pellets actually had 3, so it looks like new food for him too 

Okay I will have a read, I really want to get Bill one! 

They had these like glass lit up square bowls, there was no rocks in the bottom or even a plastic plant for them.. for some reason they reminded me of going to the doctor or the dentist, all white and unpleasant, if that kind of works in regards to describing a fish bowl/tank lol 

Thank you, the shopping list helps sum it up, I'm going out in about an hour to get the stuff! and a new water test kit hopefully. Bill still isn't looking good today and is still hiding/sleeping I feel so bad I hope he doesn't die  I've had him for so long already.

That's true! thanks for being helpful and understanding, I can't wait to come home with some goodies for him:-D


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Give him a couple of days to perk up, because it does take time to recover from illness. Watch him carefully for any changes of behavior. 

Indian Almond leaf can be hard to get. I am very fortunate to have a local pet store that carries it here; if you cannot find it, it can be bought online from Ebay or Amazon. The "grade" of leaf does not matter.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I went to two pets stores both told me completely different things! One told me to give him a pea - maybe not the whole pea just a bit, he also told me he has some incurable disease and that he was going to die!.. which was awful to hear.. and the other gave me PimaFix by API - antifungal remedy - and I also got some aquarium salt and some new fish food I could only find flakes but the first 4 ingredients are; cereals, fish and fish derivatives, molluscs and crustaceans (krill 15%) and then it has bloodworms 5%, derivatives of vegitable origin (red algae meal 4%) yeasts (advanced yeast extract 0.05%) oils and fats. The protien is 47.5%

So I know it's not pellets but compared to the flakes I am feeding him now its so much better! I didn't get an ammonia and nitrate test kit, the pet shop guy I spoke to talked me out of getting one and said he'll test my water for me for free since it's only 20 liters he reckons there shouldn't be an issue with the water :/ I am going to do another half water change on Wednesday and I also bought another filter because I feel like the other one I got wasn't very good.

I'm going to not feed Bill for a couple of days, he isn't interested in eating at the moment anyway :/ 

I'm hoping I'll see some improvement from the aquarium salts and the fungal treatment, I think he does have a fungal infection because his scales are kind of lifting and his tail looks scraggly, I don't know I just have this feeling it's a fungal infection perhaps from me not changing the water as regularly as I should have been, due to me not knowing and I feel terrible. even with half water changes he still had bits of food I guess "rotting" in the bottom of his tank which frustrated me I wish when doing a half water change that I could change the bottom half of the water because that's the dirtiest :/


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Oh also, it was suggested to me that I get him a tank mate too - perhaps a female betta fish.. 
They had bettas in with like discus fish and everything and the pet shop I didn't like, and there was two there exactly like Bill! but one definitely had fin rot his tail was awful I really wanted to get him and treat him, but I don't have enough power boards and points to set up another heater and filter let alone any room for another tank I feel so bad


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## fidget (Aug 18, 2013)

You should get a gravel vacuum and a bucket. It's basically a siphon that will suck up waste on the bottom of the tank. If you can't get that stuff out of the tank, food and waste will continue to break down and dirty the water faster than you'll be able to change it.
And you can't house a male and female betta in a small tank without a divider. One will probably kill the other, both will be stressed out. Here's a sticky about it- Link!
Bettas like being solitary creatures. They like their territory. Adding a tank mate would further stress your betta. If you want to add a snail or something, wait til he's healed. But don't think you have to add one to cheer him up. 
Can you post a picture of your fish? 
Sounds like you really care about him! Be careful listening to pet store employees. They may mean well, but a lot of them don't know what they're talking about at all.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I was thinking about getting one of those actually! I think this weekend I'll go and get one! 
I'm just really worried, what if he's on his last legs or more so his last fins and is going to die soon, I've had him for 6 months and I have no idea how long he was at the pet store for.. 
I didn't think you could put them together, I've read up about that, I thought getting some boring little fish would be okay so long as they aren't as "pretty" as him he wont feel intimidated but I haven't I decided to leave it, it didn't feel right to me, I did however get a bristle nosed catfish I think it was, to help clean the tank, but I found him dead later that night - I later found out I needed an air stone or something that would put bubbles into the tank and aerate it, I was pretty upset I cried so I'm sticking to the one fish. 

I've got pictures in a photo album on my profile  But I'll try post one, I am really new to this lol 

I really do care, I am sad that he's sad  my poor Bill


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

This is probably my favourite of Bill, it was a few days after I got him, he made a bubble nest, he hasn't made a bubble nest in awhile but since he has made one in his new 20 litre tank he's made one or two. 

I'll get some more photos tonight but I'd preferably like to get some more when he's not sick anymore  :-(

Also, I treated him for fin rot and his tail did grow back but there is still a really short bit on his tail but it has colour and everything, I didn't know if because of how damaged it was that, that was as long as it'd grow, I treated the fin rot for about 2 weeks and after the first week I didn't see any more changes so I decided I should stop because I was worried it was going to have a negative effect 
I'll post a photo where you can see what I mean there is like a short stumpy bit of his tail :/ :-(

Also this photo is of him during his bad health, plus I think my flash makes him look worse then what he actually is.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

This is Bill just the other day 











Lol sorry for the photo spam :lol:


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

JessikaSky said:


> So I know it's not pellets but compared to the flakes I am feeding him now its so much better! I didn't get an ammonia and nitrate test kit, the pet shop guy I spoke to talked me out of getting one and said he'll test my water for me for free since it's only 20 liters he reckons there shouldn't be an issue with the water :/ I am going to do another half water change on Wednesday and I also bought another filter because I feel like the other one I got wasn't very good.


If you let him test your water, make sure he gives you the exact numbers. I am astonished that he would talk you out of buying a useful product, and astonished that he thought a smaller tank would somehow accumulate less water problems - in truth, the smaller the tank is, the more difficult it is to keep the water clean.

That's not a fellow that I'd trust to care for my fish when I went on vacation. :-?

Watch out for pet store employees. Fish are actually quite challenging pets compared to something like kittens, and water chemistry is a mystery even to experienced owners. The guy I got my tank from was quite pleased with a new filter he bought. He said it would "cycle the tank in an hour" because he thought "cycling" was just running water through the filter.

...And he's been keeping fish for 40 years.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Hmm :/ now I feel bad for not getting one, I hate that I went in there with all this stuff I wanted and I got talked out of everything and I didn't want to challenge them because I'm unsure myself, but I will make sure he does give me exact numbers. I asked how do you fix incorrect ammonia and nitrates and he said usually a water change will fix it? :-? he also said that a new tank will go through a cycle of ammonia first and then nitrates and then after that it should start to level out and I'm assuming he's talking about cycling the tank? 

Both of the pet places I went to didn't seem very good or have much knowledge about bettas.. but I didn't want to leave without aquarium salt so I kind of bullied my way into getting some and I've put some in his tank last night as well as the fungal treatment and I haven't fed him I'm thinking I'll see if I can tempt him for some food on Tuesday and I'm going to do another half tank clean on Wednesday as I did one on Saturday should that be okay? 

Oh dear really :/ lol a bit funny but not very good! 
the new filter I got says it filters 250 liters an hour apparently, and the tank started to look much nicer an hour after I put it in so I am pleased by that, I really hope Bill starts to get better I'm at work now but I am stressing so much


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

The water change will fix high ammonia, he has that right. And the chemicals that will show up are ammonia - then nitrites - then nitrates, so he has that correct as well. Yes, that's the nitrogen cycle, and going through the process of steadying it out to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and visible nitrates is called cycling your tank.

You'll want to learn to be strong when someone disagrees with you. It's good for your health and pocketbook! What if he'd decided to sell you a bunch of stuff you didn't want? Remember, he needs _you_, not the other way around, and you know what you want to buy, so it should have been easy. Unfortunately there is a certain type of person that thinks that because you're young, or sweet looking, or whatever, then you couldn't _possibly _know what you're talking about...and it can be easy to get crushed under the weight of their self-assurance.

I'm not sure that the fungus medication was necessary, but you should finish the whole course now that you've started it. Follow the package directions exactly.

That cleaning should be okay. If you do a half clean on Wednesday, be sure to vacuum the gravel. You'll want to pick up a siphon to do that with, if you don't have one - it's definitely the easiest way to remove water and waste, and they're cheap.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay thanks, it just seems to me like a water change wouldn't fix those things, I don't know why I think that lol 

I know, I feel terrible, but I'm glad I got the aquarium salt, he was trying to get me to buy a female betta, luckily she wasn't there any more! 

I have been, the directions are pretty easy, 5ml for every 40 litres and since my tank is half that at 20 litres I am to give him 2.5ml of the treatment  

Okay I'll try and see if I can get to the pet store before Wednesday, it's hard with working full time 8:30 till 5 since most places close here at about 5 - 5:30 and I don't have my licence :S but I was using his fish net to scoop out some of the left over food on Saturday and that was semi working lol


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

What fungus medicine are you using, I'm not sure you need it either. The reason I ask is that you typically don't want to mix some meds with aquarium salt.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Really :/
But his scales are lifting, and his tail is all tatty and isn't as nice any more :/ and admittedly I wasn't cleaning his tank often as I didn't know, so it wouldn't surprise me if a fungal issue had started. I'm using; PimaFix by API - antifungal remedy


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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

Ooh, good thing you didn't get a female betta! That would NOT have been a good idea. Example #34 of why you don't trust pet store employees.

If you want a tankmate, get a snail. There's not a whole lot more you can put in that tank, and nothing else I'd recommend when you don't know what's wrong with your betta. I've heard of bettas becoming pretty attached to their snails--and I know from personal experience that some like them.

Stress Coat is okay as a water conditioner, but Prime would be better.

How much human interaction is Bill getting? Is he in a well-trafficked area, or on his own most of the time? Some bettas have preferences about how much attention they get.

I noticed that Bill doesn't really have a lot of places to hide (unless you've changed that...). Have you tried giving him some hides, maybe one of ricepattyfish5's betta tubes from the Classifieds, or a few live plants like anubias, java/el nino/windelov/tropica fern, or java moss? Those make a world of difference to a stressed fish. I always recommend the basic, no-care plants to beginners... you always know they won't leach paint or snag fins, they help a bit with water quality, and it seems like the fish know the difference, because they love live plants. Silk plants are fine, too, though.

I don't suggest buying pet store ornaments right now, since he's already under the weather and you don't want to expose him to any decorations that could be dangerous (leaching/chipping paint or chemicals, bizarre crevices he could get stuck in, etc, etc). rpf has never had any reports about her betta tubes causing any fish harm, and live plants should be fine (just avoid getting them from a pet store tank with fish in it--they could be sick). If you get live plants, I suggest Pandanke's packages. She may still be sending out extra plants in orders; you could ask.

In a 5g tank with a filter, you need to do one 50% change each week with water conditioner. That's pretty easy to take care of. If he's sick, you can bump that up--right now, you may choose to do two 50% changes each week, but it isn't necessary. 

You don't want to do more than that most of the time, though, and here's why. When you cycle your tank, you have a colony of good bacteria that starts to grow. These good bacteria eat up toxic substances and turn them into less toxic substances. As long as there's more ammonia at the end of the day than there is bacteria to eat it, the bacteria colony continues to grow. If you take away their food source by always overcleaning the tank, parts of the colony will die off and, at best, you'll have a smaller colony... then if you cut back on your water changes, you could get an ammonia spike. Doing extra changes in moderation when your fish is sick shouldn't hurt the colony, but you generally don't want to make a habit of it.

It does look a bit like your flake food is bloating him sometimes. You'll want to look into feeding New Life Spectrum or Omega One pellets. I know you said he's picky, so maybe try Omega One pellets first. If he won't take those, try soaking them in garlic juice... you can get garlic juice by buying garlic and slicing it open and microwaving it in a small bowl. With any luck, you might be able to cut back on the garlic juice until he'll take the normal pellets and you don't have to do that any more. (Or if you don't mind doing it, well, they do really like garlic for whatever reason.)

You may also be able to find frozen foods like bloodworms or daphnia at your pet store--they should be kept frozen until you use them, and are a really good supplement to pellets that can help keep your betta healthy. Most bettas gobble them up without hesitation. ESPECIALLY get daphnia if you can find it. No freeze-dried foods, though; they can cause bloating, and Bill doesn't need any more of those problems right now. 

A test kit isn't strictly necessary, but definitely a really good thing to have and highly recommended. If you don't have the money for it, don't stress... just take your water in, ask for the numbers back, and make sure you fulfill his other needs.

Anyway, those are my suggestions: Prime water conditioner, get more hides, keep the water clean and warm, and some better food is in order.


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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

JessikaSky said:


> Really :/
> But his scales are lifting, and his tail is all tatty and isn't as nice any more :/ and admittedly I wasn't cleaning his tank often as I didn't know, so it wouldn't surprise me if a fungal issue had started. I'm using; PimaFix by API - antifungal remedy


Ignore what I said earlier; this is a more serious symptom. Before it just looked like nasty stress, but this is really a sick fish now. I hope he gets better.

Dropsy/lifting scales typically signify a bacterial issue, AFAIK. Most people use Kanaplex on it... this usually needs to be ordered online, but if you're really lucky, your local fish stores may have it.

You also want to add Epsom salt to the tank at a dosage of 1 tsp/gallon to start with. Epsom salt is different from aquarium salt. Find it at drug stores; make sure it doesn't have perfumes or anything in it. That acts as a natural diuretic, and relieves bloating that can contribute to his issues.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I have can chime in on this.

I'd cut it out with the PimaFix. Most people agree it's not good for bettas. The consensus is that anything ending in -fix is either harmful or useless, and not worth your time/money.

It would help us figure out what's wrong if we had a few clear pictures of him.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I also didn't want to get another fish for the fact that Bill isn't well and I didn't want anything to spread if that was the case  I might look into getting him a snail once he is better  

Bills human contact has gone right down since I started working and this is what lead me to believe he was depressed, I use to be at home with him all the time he's on my bedside table and I was usually always in my bed on my laptop or reading, I'd always be there like next to him, and now I am gone from about 8 in the morning till 6 at night and the time frame of when he became sick was about a week after I started working, perhaps he thinks I've abandoned him?  

Bill has a log that he often goes in and a barrel ornament that I've found him sleeping in a few times as well as some non sharp plastic plants that are put so he can hide behind them if he wants - I'll get some photos tonight and post them up if you'd like  

I do want to get a live plants, so I'm going to do some research first as I don't want that to die. :/ 

I think I'll still do a half water change on Wednesday and hopefully have one of those sucky objects to get his waste from the bottom. 

I did read that garlic juice entices them to eat, I love garlic so we both share a love there.. lol :lol: I tried to find some Indian Almond Leaf but the pet store had none, it looks like Ebay is going to have to be my go to for now. 

I do have blood worms for him but then I read that giving them to him frozen can cause bacteria and digestion problems?


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm not a huge fan of Pimafix, it does little to nothing and doesn't do it well enough in my opinion. If you keep using it, I don't see any negative interaction with the aq salt, however, I didn't see the part with his scales lifting. Can you get a picture of him as he is now, especially one from the top.
For now follow Hrutan's instructions on keeping his tank clean, then we can see if he's got anything worse.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I'll get some photos tonight :/ 

I've use BettaFix before to repair his finrot he had when I got him from the pet store and it worked within the week, So I didn't think it'd be bad, if I am using aquarium salt can I also use epsom salt as well?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I will definitely get some photos tonight


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay perhaps I am being a bit dramatic, I googled some photos of betta fish scales lifting and none of those look like him, but I will still get photos


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

You typically want to use either aquarium salt or epsom salt but not both. Until we know something is wrong, we don't want to stress him by changing things too much for him until we know there's a problem.

And you're right, it could just be his water conditions and maybe a little bloating which all he would need is clean water. So don't get too stressed until we can see what he looks like.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay :/ I'm so worried I can't wait to get home and get photos for you all, could I perhaps put him in his smaller tank to get some photos? I'll use the same water from his tank and put it back


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Don't worry about it, it's probably nothing some clean water won't fix. If you can't get clear pictures of him, then you can cup him, but try to get the pictures with him in the tank so you don't have to stress him any more than necessary.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Sorry what does "cup him" mean? it is awfully hard to get a good picture of him in his tank as he swims away usually before I can even get a photo example; this was a photo I tried to get of him on Saturday


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Cup him means to put him in his cup that he can't swim too much in, typically the cup he came in from the pet store, or another container that size.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I got him in a bag from the pet store, I am Australian - I don't know if that makes any difference to how you get them from the pet store but yeah lol


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Yea, anyway, it's getting late for tonight.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Seriously? they look awful, poor fishies, that's got to be illegal?! :/ 

It's day time here lol, 4pm to be precise >.<


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I have lots of photos and I am going to post them all, because I feel like more is better at this point.. so sorry for spamming of photos I am just really concerned..


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

All he wants to do is lie down and rest, but since I took him out of his tank and took photos and then put him back in his tank he's come out and had a bit of a swim around for about maybe 5-7 minutes and now he's gone again hiding..


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Oh he's back out again now! perhaps he's feeling better already with the aquarium salt and fungal treatment?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay Bill is actually out and is hanging around the side of the tank that I am on, like he use to do and is coming to see me if he's on the other side... it's like he's had a drastic improvement? I'm really confused now


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Is he eating? His stomach looks a little overly rounded, but other than that I don't see much with him that won't be solved with some clean water.

If he's start to act better, just keep doing what you're doing and take hrutan's advice.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I agree his tummy looks a little rounded. Skip a day of feeding, so that he has time to digest his food and slim down a little.

And yes, those cups are awful, aren't they? But there's no protections for pet fish in the US. It's very sad. The cups are great for a brief storage while cleaning the tank, though. Just you have to remember to put the lid on or the betta might jump out!

If you don't have a cup, you'll want some other container handy in case of emergency, or for big aquarium cleanings. Something like a plastic peanut jar with holes punched in the lid will do in a pinch. Just make sure it's rinsed thoroughly with hot water, and no soap.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I haven't fed him since Sunday, He didn't really eat anything when I fed him on Saturday, he kind of picked at his flakes..
I was going to feed him tonight but I think I might leave it till Wednesday perhaps, but I am so happy, he actually was out swimming around a fair bit last night! he seemed happy and he kept coming to me when I put my face at the tank you have no idea how much better I feel, I was stressing so much at work. It was after I took him out of the tank and took the photos that I posted of him and then put him back that he was more active maybe he was happy I was showing him attention and taking photos of him, who knows, and he was out this morning for a little bit but then he went into hiding but it was better than what he has been like! I hope he comes out again tonight when I get home, it'd be handy if I could bring him to work with me every day.. 

They don't look good at all, those containers look like what we use here to buy potato salad in from the deli in our shopping centre, there are usually three sizes, small, medium and large and that container looks about a medium serve of potato salad >.< 
Do they live in those containers until they are lucky enough to have someone buy them? I can't stand animal cruelty of any kind I want to work for the RSPCA, or as a vet nurse, I've had heaps of different pets growing up :-D

Anyway back to Bill lol 
I have his old 5 litre tank, I am not actually sure if it's even 5 litres I will check that, but I usually pop him in there and give him some blood worms to eat while I clean his tank


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

The little tank is just the thing.

Yes, they actually live in those cups until they get purchased. Good pet stores will have them in much larger containers and change the water regularly, and bad pet stores....well, there are a lot of horror stories on this forum about what people have found. Let's leave it at that. I think about a liter is the largest that I've seen. The liter jars are fine as long as they are kept clean; the fish can stay healthy in them. But the waste builds up too fast in the smaller cups.

The laws may be different in your region.

I'm glad Bill is starting to feel better!


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay that's good, I thought he might begin to recognize that when he's put in the smaller tank that it means treats - blood worms, so he eventually will get use to it and like it? kind of like a dog perhaps, but he's a fish so he might think differently but I kind of thought over time that's how he'd feel.

That's horried :/ they only care about the money, I don't even want to read about the horror stories it makes me too sad, I use to like going fishing.. but now I can't stand it and when someone I know goes it makes me sad and annoyed I always imagine the pain the animals would be going through. 

So am I! yay I'll get some photos of him once he's better, he's pretty  or at least I think so lol, he is kind of a purple blue colour without flash, and then with the flash on he's blue and green


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

A lot of it depends on your fish, but feeding them in their cups while you change their water makes them not hate water change days as much. It's also an old trick you can use if you do 100% changes, if you put their cups in the tank and feed them in it, on water change days you don't have to chase them around to cup them, just put the cup in and they will swim into it (expecting food obviously).

And unfortunately a lot of fishes die in those cups while waiting. Some people do what they can with complaining about their conditions to try to improve it for the fishes, but it all boils down to the particular store manager and of course, money.

So hopefully Bill starts to become even more active and starts to return to his old self. I'd like to see his stomach a little smaller, was it like that before Sunday? He still looks nice even if he's a little sick. They always do look so different depending on the lighting.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

That's pretty cute, I want to hug Bill sometimes he's cute lol not sure if that's normal or not lol, that's pretty cute, kind of smart too  

It wouldn't be a fast death either and that's what upsets me, just imagine the pain we would go through suffering for hours it's the same for them  

I think so yes, he started to stop eating on Friday/Saturday, I'll wait for his stomach to go down, I thought he was bloated/constipated I guess I was right, I'll feed him again maybe Wednesday/ Thursday?


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

If you get some live food, maybe some frozen daphnia or some frozen bloodworms, you could see if he will eat that. I don't want to stop him from eating if he wants food. If he is bloated, the flakes probably aren't helping though.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Once they trust you, they will do the strangest things sometimes. My first little guy, as much as I think I tormented him with water changes (I was a kid and wasn't the gentlest with him) every time my hand was in the water he'd come brush my fingers. The first time he startled me, and I'm sure him too when I suddenly pulled my hand out of the water but he just kept on doing it.

Any yes, they do suffer in the cups a lot of times. I went into the store quite a few times over the course of a couple of weeks and watched this one little guy just decline until he was take off the shelves. As much as I like to go in and look at all the little bettas, I just can't bring myself to do that much anymore.

So as I mentioned, as long as Bill is active, it's probably nothing worse than a little bloating. We could try some Epsom salt if it doesn't go down in a couple days.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Ooh I have some blood worms still, in fact a lot of blood worms so I'll give him some tonight when I do his half water change   

He didn't come out last night when I came home and I didn't see him this morning either  

Should I do the half water change tonight though, because I've been doing the fungal treatment? 

Bill doesn't like hands or fingers in his tank or even outside of it, but he will come swimming up to me really fast if he's at the other end of the tank and then hang around while I watch him and then if I go back to working on my laptop he'll swim away it's so cute! 

I'd go in with a backpack and steal them all, I couldn't just walk away from them, that would be the only time I'd condone stealing.. lol :/ 

Okay sure  I mean he was very active the other night and now he's back to his old way, I'm so unsure.. did his fins and tail look in bad shape from the photos I shared?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Were you able to get that water tested?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

No I didn't, It's a bit hard when working full time and by the time I finish the pet shops close in half an hour and it'd take that time to get there because of peak hour traffic.. :/ :-?:|


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

When you did the water change, did you gravel vac with the siphon and get all the gunk from between the marbles in his tank? Has his swollen stomach gone down?

You said you had a small 5L tank that you temporarily use to hold him while you clean his tank if he's regressing, we might have to put him in there while he's sick and do 100% daily water changes. I don't see anything else really wrong with him, but I don't like that he's still not responding well after a few days.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I haven't cleaned his tank yet again, I don't have a siphon, I didn't think to get one when I was at the pet store on the weekend and then it was mentioned to me to get one on Monday, and again I haven't been able to get to the pet store, I'll see what he's like tonight after his half tank clean.. 

His stomach looks much better than it was, I'll see if I can get a look at him tonight and maybe take some more photos?

I found the box this morning it's actually 3 litres  but it's better than nothing..


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Ok, whew, his stomach was bugging me, but since it's going down, it was probably just bloat from the flakes.

If you've just been changing the water without getting the stuff that gets stuck between the stones at the bottom of his tank, I think that might be the problem. Do see what he looks like when you get home.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

What could it have been if it wasn't going down? :/ 

I do have intentions of getting the siphon, I just can't really get anywhere during the week is all, which is frustrating and inconvenient at the best of times. 

His water is beginning to look cloudy and I am assuming that is from the fungal treatment, I'm just unsure if I should half change it tonight though, will it ruin the fungal treatment? 

I'll get some photos of him again tonight I think, what if his stomach hasn't gone down though? I feel like it has but I don't know :S


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

It could be bloat or fluid buildup from a possible bacterial issue. He's not showing any other outward signs of bacterial so I was a bit confused.

You should probably still change some water, try to stir up the gunk and get it out. I'm not sure if he needs the meds, but if you continue to use it, just redose for the water you take out.

As long as he's not getting worse, we can work with him.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Lol could I take him to the vet even? would they treat him :S :-?:question: 

Yeah I will, I usually use his fish net to get the gunk, kind of like how you clean out your pool lol 

I'll continue the week out I started Sunday night so I'll finish Saturday night at the latest I think. 

I don't think he's getting worse, because he was out and active the other night but now he's gone back to his ways, it's almost as if he is being stubborn lol he's been in this tank since the 11th of June, I'm just surprised that issues are arising now


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Well, you'd have to find a vet that specialized in fish or small animals and those aren't easy to come by.

The fish net may not be getting everything that you need to get out. Once you get the gravel vac, that will help a lot.

It's a slow buildup and break down of his resistances. The clean water probably perked him up so let's see how he goes. As long as he's not getting worse.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Yeah true lol, 

No I know that, but it's all I have for the meantime :/ 

Well I doubt it was the clean water because that got changed on Saturday, I think it was because I took him out and took photos of him, but I've changed his water tonight and he's out and about again, it's like he's been a sleep all day and doesn't realize and then I wake him and he comes out, he is still bloated though and now I have noticed his scales have a silver patch I have photos I will post, I also felt horrible for not feeding him so I gave him a TINY amount of the NEW flakes I got for him with the first 4 ingredients being: cereals, fish and fish derivatives, molluscs and crustaceans(krill 15%). The flakes also have blood worms and 47.5% protein.

I also have epsom salts I will post pictures of if someone could tell me if that is okay to use and how much do I use for his 20L tank


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

He's not getting worse I don't think, he's just not getting better it's all staying the same, when I disturb him I guess, he comes out and ends up staying out, and he did eat, he went for his food straight away and started chasing after it when he missed it and didn't get it in his mouth, so he has an appetite. 
Here are the photos, he's still bloated and now has white/silver in his scales on ONE sided only... also photos of the epsom salt, is it okay to use? the brand Macro is known to be organic with no chemicals or hormones etc. 

Bloated?









White scales?









His underneath is very light even white at some times, this is how I know something is wrong, when he isn't dark  









Epsom salt(the packaging is a bit dirty sorry, it's been kept upstairs in the kitchen, my mum uses it a lot)


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

If you don't have a gravel vac, and can't get your water tested yet, can you do a 100% water change. Has it been over a week since you did a full tank clean?
Take out some of the tank water, take out the filter media and put it in the old tank water and swish it a little to get any loose particles off. Then pour out all of the water from his tank and give a quick rinse with some conditioned water (don't go nuts trying to get everything super clean). Then fill it back up with new conditioned water, put your filter media back in and re-acclimate him and put him back in. I really want to get the sludge out from the bottom of his tank. This shouldn't crash your cycle.

That epsom salt looks good but if he's eating like that and not constipated, you may not need it. You typically dose at 1 tsp / gallon, make sure you get the aquarium salt out first. You probably are going to have to train him to eat pellets, I think the flakes are causing the bloating.

By the way, he's not in darkness while you're at work is he?

Edit: When you add salts, are you dissolving them in some tank water in a cup first then slowly adding it to his tank?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I just a 100% change last Saturday and I did a 50% last night but I can do a 100% tonight  

He doesn't seem to have any sludge because I did the 100% water change on Saturday and that's when I stopped feeding him so he doesn't have any food left overs, but his tank has gone murky and I'm feeling like that is because of the fungal treatment. 

I'll see if I can find some pellets on the weekend then, and I'll get some garlic as well to crush and get the juice from  

I have him near a window with gray curtains it shouldn't be dark as there usually is cracks in the curtain and sun gets through and sometimes I open the curtains a bit so some gets onto his tank but I read they don't like sunlight so I don't do that often, and sun and light also encourages things to grow so I didn't think it was great if there was bacteria coming to life I don't want to encourage it to grow any more :/ 

I have only used the aquarium salt once and no I didn't :/ I put it in at the other end of the tank to Bill so it wasn't going directly onto him though, I do that with his fungal treatment too.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hold off on the water change then if you've changed it last night. It's possible the meds or harmless bacterial bloom causing the murkiness.

Definitely see if you can get pellets, we use Omega One or New Life Spectrum, but I'm not sure what you have available there, and if you can get a liquid water test kit. Make a list, lol.

I just wanted to make sure that he is getting some light, doesn't have to be direct sunlight, but just enough to make sure he knows it's day or it can mess with his circadian rhythms.

And whenever you use salts, never add it directly to the tank, always dissolve it in a smaller container with tank water first, make sure it's all dissolved and then slowly add little by little to the tank over the course of 10 mins to half hour. Anything you put into his tank, you want to make sure it's dissolved and in liquid form first.

So just check on him tonight, as long as he's eating, and at least active when you're there, that's a good sign. I'm beginning to think he's more quirky than sick.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I will then, and I'll do a 100% again this Saturday? 

I will  I looked at a few last weekend but they all had wheat and fillers in the top 4 but that was only at one pet store I'll check the other, if not I can get some online  
My list is; Pellets, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates test kit and siphon  

Yeah no there should definitely be enough light for him to tell that it's day and not night  is that true though, that they shouldn't have direct sunlight on them? 

Okay thanks, I didn't know :/ there is so much I don't know I feel really bad and incompetent in regards to bettas. I will do that from now on!  

He was actually out this morning swimming around as I was in and out of my room getting ready for work! so I was really happy about that, he was still really white/light coloured under his face though. 

A quirky fish lol :-? silly Bill >.<


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Yea, a full clean on Saturday is fine. Let's see if he's out swimming more before disturbing him too much. Feed him normally since he's eating his color should start improving.

Don't forget to take a sample of your water to the pet store as well and have them test it for you, make sure they give you values and not just a yes/no.

Sunlight isn't bad for them, some breeders give them 15 min sunbaths, it's something you need to be careful with as it can heat up their water and too much sun can cause algae in their tanks. As long as there's light for him during the day, he should be pretty active.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay  

Yes and that too, I'm going to take a about a glass just to make sure the person has enough to test with  

Okay good that's what I've been doing giving him some sun every now and then and he doesn't react badly to it so I didn't think it was too bad, my mum actually told me that, sun helps things to grow so algae and bacteria apparently :| 

I mean I don't know what he's doing during the day while I'm at work, for all I know he could be swimming around and then he's tired by night time and isn't as active, but he use to be active during the day and night so unless that changes as they get older I don't know :S


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

They do slow down as they get older and become less active and lose color. As they age, it's especially important to keep their water clean and stress them as little as possible and make sure they get good nutrition. They become really susceptible to all sorts of problems.

As you are unsure as to how old he is, he could very well just be getting older. If you can get him some Indian Almond Leaves or pure Rooibos tea without any additives, that would help him out as well.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

That's what I'm thinking because I don't know how long he'd been at the pet store for, and I've had him for 6 months already now :S 

But he was out again last night after I gave his house a little nudge, it was if I woke him up and he was like "oh! your home now! awesome" and he stayed out for a few hours, and then again this morning he was out swimming around, he doesn't look bloated any more I don't think, and I gave him some flakes again and he went for them straight away. I will try and get some good pellets on the weekend though  

I will also try to find those as well, but if not I do have epsom salts would they be okay as well? I can put those into his tank on Saturday when I do a 100% clean again, Bill will get some blood worms then too, should I defrost them or give them to him frozen?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

The only thing worrying me now is on one side of him there's random spots where his scales have started to go silver/ white, is the the fish version of getting gray hair? lol :-?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

How old is he? Here's an article about what to expect as he ages.

http://nippyfish.net/sick-betta/aging-bettas/


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I just read that and honestly it seems to all describe Bill... he can't be ready to die yet surely? 

He's certainly has become less active in the last month and does seem to favour either swimming or resting on the bottom of his tank, even when I took him out to take photos to post on here he would hang around the bottom of his tank he seemed tired like his fins were too heavy and he couldn't handle swimming any more, the white spots have appeared in random areas on him within the last week, his colour isn't very bright any more but he hasn't lost his colour, and I have noticed when he goes to eat he some times misses getting the food or he goes for a bubble or something thinking it's food.. 
He's not as fast as he use to be when he comes to swim over to me - he use to zoom straight over and now it's just a swim, but he still comes to see me which I am happy about. 
He hasn't made a bubble nest for a while too could this also be a part of old age as he's possibly past his breeding age?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Well, we never really know why they make bubble nests, so that doesn't mean anything. It depends. The expected lifespan of a betta is 2-5 years. They are usually around 6 months old at the time of purchase.

If that's the case, all the advice we've given you is exactly the same, but keeping the water clean is even _more _important than it was before -- if that's even possible! Old fish, just like old people, are more delicate and sensitive to change.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Then he'd have to be 1 year old.. I wish he could talk and tell me what is wrong, but I am happy that he's back out swimming he has become more active then he was a week ago that's for sure, but what could be causing the white spots? is this a fungal issue even though I'm treating for that, could it be because of the fungal treatment could it be burning his scales off or something??

I always thought he was making bubble nests because he was happy, he use to make one a day after I'd change his water and break his last one he made.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Some bettas never make nests...some make them even when they are dying. It's just a funny thing about these guys.

It's possible that he has damaged scales, maybe from being burned by salt or medication. Be sure to predissolve anything you add to the tank, unless the directions very specifically tell you not to. If it's damaged scales, they'll heal as long as his water is clean.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Really they are actually interesting fishies! I liked when he made bubble nests I thought it was cute, I didn't see him making it, he usually made them over night or during the day when I wasn't in the room lol 

I'm thinking possibly the aquarium salt then because I didn't dissolve that :/ and I put that in on Sunday and I noticed the white spots the other day.. I feel so bad


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

We all make mistakes. I feel so awful for my Mr. Kitty because I didn't understand water quality when I first got him...but the answer is you are learning and doing better.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I want to agree with hrutan, silver/white scales can sometimes occur with ammonia burns (this doesn't look like that) or possibly from the salt (don't beat yourself up on it, the best of us have KILLED our fish through ignorance). Making sure he has clean, warm water will go a long way.

About the bloodworms, make sure you defrost what you think he'll eat, try not to defrost too much and have to refreeze it, and let it warm up in a cup of tank water before giving it to him. It's a good sign that he's still got a healthy appetite.

As per his aging, usually, in the US we get them when they're about 6 months or so from the chain stores, they don't usually last too much longer sitting on the shelves. Occasionally, from pet stores you can get one that's older if the pet stores takes good care of their fish, or someone may have returned the one you buy. Don't take this the wrong way, but I want something to be wrong with him so we can fix it, but he's just acting like an old person. There's no clear signs of illness, he's eating like a champ, still responding to stimuli, just a little slow.

Let's see how he fares with his next water change on Saturday, I believe that's the day you're stopping all the meds and salt too if I'm not mistaken. If you get your water tested too (make to take water from before a water change) and we can see where your cycle is at. Let's see if Bill has a couple more years in him of being quirky.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Thanks guys, makes me feel a bit better  
He certainly has warm water, I actually have 4 thermometers to test his water, I've got for on the inside and some for the outside.. lol 

Okay, I defrosted them last Saturday when he had them  

Do they reach a certain size before they stop growing and then start ageing? because I'd say Bill is probably about 5cm big, would size give us a rough estimate on his life span is what I'm trying to say lol >.< 

Sounds like a plan, will the fungal treatment and aquarium salt have any effect on the water when he gets tested? and yes, once I have changed his water on Saturday I won't be adding any more fungal treatment, but I was going to but some aquarium salt (dissolved this time) in.
Should I get the pet shop to test the before tank clean water and the after tank clean water?


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

The meds you have in there shouldn't affect anything that we'll be looking for. If you can have them test your treated tap water and his tank water, that would be good for establishing a baseline and a tank status. TBH, I'd not worry about salt anymore. 

There's two camps when it comes to salt, there are those that believe a little in an aquarium at all times is good and those that don't. I fall into the latter category. Here's an article 'Salt and the freshwater aquarium'.

I'm not an expert with breeding or aging, so I can't really hazard a guess as to how old he might be.

I'm not


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I will get them to test both  

Okay perhaps I won't add salt :S 

That's okay, I just hope he's not too old and on his last fins


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Also is it possible for someone to tell me what breed Bill is? I've been told before but I've forgotten, is he a common breed?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Bill has been out again tonight, his tank is murky because of the fungal treatment, I can't wait to do a full clean tomorrow I don't like it :S


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Oddly enough, I'm not sure tail type. Judging by the first set of pictures...I _think _he's a crowntail with very droopy fins.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Oh, no they aren't droopy it's the way it's been distorted, he was swimming away as I took the picture so his tail was moving and the result I got was weird looking fins  lol I'll get some better ones today after I 100% clean his tank


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay Bill is still bloated, how much epsom salt do I add to his tank, can I get measurements in liters as I'm from Australia not America :S sorry I probably sound really dumb that I can't work the difference out I just want to be on point with measurements and I don't trust myself to work it out, he has become more active though and I have done a 100% clean just then, I am waiting for the water to get to his ideal temp and then I am going to put him in, he's had a few blood worms, some he has spat out though.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

1 teaspoon to about 3 3/4ths liters. Dissolve it first, and add it very slowly over a half hour or so.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Bills face has gone really white after I put him in his new water, why? have I done something wrong? the temp is right the ph is good, I put stress coat in, perhaps a little bit more then what is needed, could that be the issue? and he's swimming around fast


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

And thank you! since his tank is 20 liters I will need to put about 6 teaspoons in?


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Did you acclimate him before putting him back in? The extra stress coat wouldn't do that to him.
Just cover his tank with a towel and let him settle in.

And little less than 6 tsp sounds about right.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

No I didn't, I don't do that :/ but I have been putting him in a cup and lowering it into the tank and sitting it there and letting him swim out. He seems to be okay now 

okay awesome 

He has been flaring as well is that a good sign? I put a mirror near his tank and he flared  I got some photos and I was hoping that'd give a better idea of finding out what breed he is


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

They will flare at anything they think is a threat, it's good that he's doing that and not just sitting at the bottom of the tank. 
Also, from now on, no more 100% changes, once you get the gravel vacuum, just use that once a week on the gravel for your 50% water change.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Blood worms yummo









Flare!


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

He seems pretty good now apart from looking bloated and his face is white :/ 

Okay  I've got my last tanks water change waiting to get tested tomorrow at the pet store hopefully, and my new clean water


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## jhc (Sep 10, 2014)

JessikaSky said:


> He seems pretty good now apart from looking bloated and his face is white :/
> 
> Okay  I've got my last tanks water change waiting to get tested tomorrow at the pet store hopefully, and my new clean water



that lovely betta 
waiting for my betta to grow big soon


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

He's a Crowntail for sure. I have one that looks the same (actually your guy has nicer fins than mine, as mine has some defects and is recovering from fin melt -_-).

I think that's too many blood worms xD My guys get frozen brine shrimp every so often and I give not even a quarter of that (actually it's all they will eat).


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Thanks guys! makes me feel good  
Aaw really, that's no good, I hope he has a speedy recovery I'm sure he'll be beautiful in no time! 
I'm assuming crowntails are more of a common breed? 

Also I did edit the photos slightly, just put a filter over that was all, his colours are really rather vibrant and I was really happy at how his tail looked when he flared, there didn't seem to be any holes or anything, he's my pretty boy. 

Yeah I know I over did it on the worms lol he was only in the tank for 15 minutes at most while I changed his water, I thought I'd treat him since all he's been through this past week, I think he appreciated them  I don't mind if they go to waste, I'm happy to buy more, I love spending money on Bill  stops me from buying things I don't need like more clothes >.< lol


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

So looks like his colors are a little better now. And yea, that's way too many bloodworms, I don't think he's bloated, just overfed, lol. Only 3 or 4 should be good for him. You could try hand feeding them to him if you wanted.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

He didn't eat many lol he spat some out even  and yes he's looking happier today I think 
So there could be a possibility that he's just fat? because I guess I did feed him a lot some times I fed him twice I think because I forgot if I fed him in the morning before work :S so I'd feed him in the afternoon too? but he is still being "lazy" and hiding in his little barrel thingie I got him, he sleeps in it I'm pretty sure which is cute!


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Feeding him twice a day is fine, just enough so his belly looks a little rounded. He'll always beg for more, don't give in, they can be little piggies like that. Fast him one day a week, no food, that should help clear up most of his digestive issues. He doesn't look fat, he just looks like he had his fill of bloodworms and then some.

As long as he's out and active when you're at his tank, and he's eating well, that's good. They're usually not lazy all day but if he's getting older, it could account for that.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

He was boated before he ate the blood worms though and I hadn't fed him :/ 

But that's a good idea to not feed him for a day I will do that for sure  

He's out active most of the time I'm around, he's currently not at the moment though. He has been super active today though so perhaps he's tired now?


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

Thanks, mine is recovering quickly. I hope he gets a nice long tail like yours someday. 

Maybe your fish is just laid back? He's still so vibrant so I wouldn't think he'd be too old, maybe 1-1.5 years? (since they are anywhere between 6 months to a 1 year in stores). Too bad you couldn't set up a video camera to record him while you're away to see his activity level.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Thanks! I think Bill is pretty big, he's definitely grown I'm glad I put him in a bigger tank! 

Oh awesome, I don't want him to die yet! I've noticed the pet stores only carry the same type of betta as Bill, same colouring and all, so if Bill passed I don't think I could get another betta it wouldn't feel right to get one the same as him. 

A camera would be an awesome idea, I could look into it!


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I actually just woke up and have found Bill swimming fast and erratically, his face is extremely white, the whitest I've ever seen and his gills are going in and out as if breathing hard, do I need to change his water again? I haven't added Epsom salts, just stress coat and got the waters ph right..


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

And he's just sitting at the top of the tank behind his heater on the suction cups that hold it there. Omg someone help is he going to die!? What have I done!?


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

What exactly did you put in his water after the change? It's odd that he would suddenly act like that.

Edit, did you add something to mess with the pH?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I haven't added anything to his water. I gave him new rocks but they were all washed before I put them in his tank. I'm about to get ready and go to the pet shop to get his water tested for ammonia and all that and get a siphon, and some more pellets if I can find any. :-(


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

If he's still pale and acting funny, take the rocks out and do a 50% change.
Were did you get the rocks?

Edit: And try to get a liquid test kit if that's affordable for you.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

The rocks were previously used in my mums aquarium, they are glass and I washed them 3 times, twice in hot water then in cool water, I don't know why I did that but that's how I cleaned them :S I was previously using some in Bills smaller tank and no problems. 

I am, I'm not going to take the water and get it tested, I'm just going to a kit and I'll test the water myself at home, I might get talked out of it again, I will go in get it, not request any help, get a kit and walk out. Theres a kit for about $50 it tests PH, ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites I'm going to get that it looks really good, I'll buy it not just walk out lol.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

That's pretty expensive for a test kit, but I guess that's the average price there. Don't let them intimidate you.
I don't know why Bill would be freaking like that then especially since he was mostly fine yesterday.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I don't either, it stresses me out. But I've bought the siphon it's called Provac by aqua one and I've gotten some silk plants which I've wanted to get for awhile now.

I've got a test kit by Nutrafin and it says PH test, NH3/NH4 ammonia test, NO3 nitrate test, NO2 nitrite test - mini master kit for freshwater. It comes with 1 pipette, 2 glass tubes, 7 bottles of the test stuff. 

I also got API stress coat which says; Makes tap water safe, removes chlorine and chloramines, detoxifies heavy metals. Protects fish, the healing power of Aloe Vera, proven to reduce fish stress, replaces slime coat. 

I asked about Indian almond leaf and no luck but he took my name and number and made me write down Indian almond leaf and he said he'd get back to me by the end of the Adelaide to let me know if his supplier can get it in for me, he also told me he can get custom fish in for me too.. :S I think one Bill is enough for now but I would love another up the track when I have mastered betta care a bit more I think! 

I'm about to go to another pet store in search of some decent pellets and then if I find some I'm going to the grocery store to get some garlic which will be handy as I need to go shopping for my mum - its her birthday today lol.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Happy Birthday to your mum.
I hadn't realized how expensive these things can be in Australia, but, the Gravel Vac is good, the Stress Coat is really good and the test kit will be very useful. It'll be good to tell your water parameters and see what Bill might not like.

Remember, before you get more fishes, figure out the housing first, then get the fish.

When you get back, test the water and let us know.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I hope to god I am doing this right, I did the ammonia test for his LAST water change which was when I had put the fungal treatment in and the aquarium salt, it has come back CLEAR. 

Ammonia is also CLEAR for his now current water that has only had the PH corrected in it. 

Nitrite for Bills current water is also clear. 

Nitrate is also clear... 

I followed the instructions but for the Nitrite and Nitrate test they should be either a light purple or pink colour to represent the lowest amount and they are both clear not coloured.... 

I didn't test for his previous water because I accidentally squirted some left over current water into his old water because I needed to put it somewhere and I forgot I was going to be needing his water again :/ 

Also Bill is currently in hiding


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I don't think the results should be clear.
First, check the expiration date on the test kit.
Next, for ammonia, it's 7 drops of reagent 1, shake, 7 drops of reagent 2, shake then 7 drops of reagent 3, shake. Wait 20 mins and match the color.
Similar procedure for the other, make sure to shake the nitrate bottle very very well.

Also, measure the pH of the tank and of your tap water.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

expiry is the 31/8/2016 

I followed the directions I was given. There is an instruction book for each test 

eg; 
5ml sample in test tube, add 5 drops reagent 1 and 5 drops reagent 2, shake well to mix. Wait 2 mins for colour to develop - for the Nitrite test


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I just did them all again including PH, the PH changed coloured and wasn't too high or low, but the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite test are all clear.. I followed each instruction and I did it with my partner with me as well so we both did it together.

Bill just came out and is still white and swimming erratically. 

I really have no clue what is going on. The tests are telling me the water is fine where as Bill is telling me there is something wrong. 

I did remove a few plants so he doesn't have as many in there and the rocks are different..


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Update

Bill was out this morning he was still rather white but he didn't seem to be swimming erratically or darting around.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

It was the Nutrafin mini master test kit that you bought wasn't it. I have an API kit that I bought this year and the expiration date is 2019. Your ammonia, nitrates, nitrites test shouldn't come back clear, at the very least, the reagent should tint the water, even with a 0 level for the test it should be a color that matches one you have on the color chart they provided.
Maybe get someone from the fish store to help you and if it's still clear for them, you may have to get it exchanged.
It would be nice to know the pH of your tap water, what value does it match up against the chart.

Bill might also be one of those fish that need to have a lot of activity outside the tank. When he's darting around, it doesn't look like he's rubbing up against the decor trying to scratch himself does he?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Yep, that was it :/ I am super annoyed because I paid $57.70 for it! I have spent well over $500 on Bill now lol When I buy something I expect it to work.. 

I can't remember the PH now but I will test when I go home, I'll test the untreated tap water and then his current PH? 

No, no scratching  sometimes he goes against the heater and he darts away from it like it has slightly burnt him?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I'll call the pet store in my lunch break and see what I can have done.


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## Lelu74 (Feb 4, 2013)

Actually oak leaves are very similar to Indian Almond Leaf, something along the lines of 98% chemical composition. Something I found online, a while back. They are best if picked in the fall, when they have turned brown or at least dried. Try to wash them off to get rid of possible pesticide residue and pollutants, or pick them in a nice clean park (forest).


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Ok, just wanted to know the pH of the tap water.
The test kits are pretty easy to use, hopefully it's not old.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I'll see if I can get the Indian Almond Leaf if not that can be my next option lol 

Okay will test when I get home, It's usually pretty high. 

The pet store guy I spoke to said it should definitely be showing tinting or some sort, and then he suggested I was doing it wrong but I am 100% sure I am not. I followed the instructions and counted the drops as they went in and everything. So he said bring it in and a water sample and they will test for me. so I am back to square one. Will have to see if I can organise something this week after work perhaps, I don't like leaving it till the weekend seems like an awful long time...


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Nearly bought this betta the other day. 

I do have the 3 litre tank I was going to put him in, along with a heater as I have like 2 spares! until I got a divider for the 20 liter tank, but I decided against it as Bill isn't well and I want to sort him out first. I just really wanted to rescue this guy  he was $10 

The picture shows that he's orange but he was actually red in real life, what sort of betta is he?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Guys wtf :/ I am the worst owner ever I am trying but I keep failing! I'm thinking of giving Bill away to someone who knows how to look after him since I am doing such a crap job! 

I've just come home and discovered Bill has a patch on him of brownie/silver scales that seem to be peeling off when you look up his body. It honestly looks like a scab coming off, it's where a small spot started and now it's grown, Bill is also still white and bloated. 

I didn't put epsom salt in I didn't know if I should have left all the chemicals for awhile and just gave him some clean water. Anyway here's a photo

Also he is active and swimming around right now, he has eaten some flakes and I put the mirror up to him and he has flared at his reflection


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I need to look this one up, does it look fuzzy on his scales? Can you tel if his gills look discolored?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Fuzzy yes, fluffy even or that could be because it's peeling off, his gills seem to be fine, I made him flare at himself all was normal, I'm getting my mum to ring around some vets today and see what we can achieve


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I managed to get a hold of a lady who seems like she knows what she's doing, I'm organizing a time and day for her to come to mine and see what's going on. 

this is what she sent me; 

I would be happy to come and have a look at your fish. I have been keeping freshwater fish for 6 years and currently have a salt water tank, African cichlid tank, community tank, goldfish tank, and 3 fighting fish tanks. 

I feel better already for Bill.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Just got back in, I couldn't see the picture of the fish you posted until I got home, not sure what's up with this computer. He's beautiful, but I agree, focus on Bill first.

It's hard to tell without a closeup, but it doesn't look hair like enough to be fungus, I want to say he's picked up an external bacterial infection. I don't want to jump on Columnaris as yet as I don't see all the symptoms but I'd be prepared with some antibiotics like API Erythromycin, API Triple Sulfa and also a Fungus Eliminator. See what that lady says as well since I don't know what products are available in Australia.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

He looks in good condition too for a pet store betta, usually they have fin rot, well at least the ones here in Aus do :S 

When I look it side on (it's so hard to explain, but like 3D as Bill is swimming away from me I guess,) it just looks fluffy and it's peeling off. 
I've got PimaFix by API - anti fungal remedy - this is a pic of it - http://www.lotsforpets.co.uk/images/api-fish-care-pimafix-antifungal-remedy-p356-880_zoom.jpg

But hopefully she will be able to come around tonight, if not tomorrow night


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I think your pet store in Aus keeps fish better than we do here in the US. I can't see the pic here again, but if I remember, he was a veil tail, they're pretty common and for a while used to be the only types readily available. It still is the type that I like the best though.

I remember you had PimaFix in there before which makes me think even more it's bacterial. We don't know your water parameters to we're also missing a small piece of the picture. Hopefully she take a look at him soon and see why Bill is misbehaving.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I have noticed the picture does keep disappearing too :S 
Ohh I thought he was perhaps a veil tail since when he flared there were no spikes like Bill. 

:/ I think I am killing him with kindness 
Should I add epsom salt or aquarium salt tonight? or just leave things as they are for now. 

I am trying to organise a time with this lady but she hasn't replied to my email.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Change his water 50% - 75% (don't do a 100%), don't add Epsom salt. I can't remember when you stopped his aquarium salt treatments last (think it was last week wasn't it) so for now I would say don't add that either.

I'd also call the pet store and see if they had the antibiotics available, they can sometimes be hard to find.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I got the siphon too so I'll hook that up tonight and give that a go as well as a 50% water change, 
Yeah I changed his water on Saturday and haven't added the salt because I thought I'd done enough damage after I didn't dissolve the salt before putting it in the water change I did on the 6th.
Okay I will do that in my lunch break


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I did about a 60% water change, I tried the siphon and stopped as it wasn't fully working due to the fact I have fairly large glass stones and I hadn't transferred Bill out either, but I managed to scoop a lot of the left over sludge out with his net, I'll change his water again on Thursday and take him out and use the siphon again properly. 

His PH is at about 6.8 and I added API stress coat which says; Makes tap water safe, removes chlorine and chloramines, detoxifies heavy metals. Protects fish, the healing power of Aloe Vera, proven to reduce fish stress, replaces slime coat. 

I added a little extra of that as it says if you add extra it helps repair damaged skin and fins, I measured it out of course. 

I also dissolved 4 teaspoons of epsom salt and poured maybe 100ml into his tank, and was going to continue adding the rest but since tipped it down the sink thinking it was a bad idea, I think at most he would of had a teaspoon amount of epsom salt in his tank. :-(


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Just try to get the siphon between the stones and suck up anything that may have gotten stuck in there when you do a water change. Once you get proficient with the gravel vac, you probably won't even have to take him out, unless it really bothers him.

You shouldn't worry much about controlling his pH, they can adapt to a wide varieties of pH and using products to change the pH can cause fluctuations that stress out the fish.

API Stress Coat is a fine water conditioner, don't stress too much about it.

Don't worry about the epsom salt, especially in such a low concentration it wouldn't hurt him, it's not really a salt and you can even keep it long term in aquariums where the fishies have problems.

How is Bill, is he getting any worse? Did you arrange a time to have a visit from that lady?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Yeah I did that last night and I feel like I need to remove Bill, don't want him sucked up lol 

I usually try to keep the PH the same as it currently is in his tank so it's not a big change  

Okay good thing I didn't add more.

I haven't seen Bill this morning but last night while I was changing his water he was out swimming around, the patch didn't look like it'd gotten bigger and I couldn't see anymore patches on him, he had some fish flakes and I got him to flare.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hopefully he will learn that the siphon = bad for him but he will still be curious. you can also make sure your finger hovers over the end so that if he does get too close, you can cut off the water flow.

If the patch isn't going away, you should start treating him soon. As I mentioned, I'm not sure what products you have available in Australia.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Yeah, lol I really don't want to suck him up, goddamnit Bill don't be so curious! 

I know, I am actually going to the pet store after work tonight I have organised things and hopefully I am going to be able to make it there before they close! I will show them the photo and hopefully they have something! What where the items again you suggested? I am going to make a note  and I am taking back the test kit, and will get some of Bills current water for them to test.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

An antibiotic, we use Kanaplex or Triple Sulfa in the US.
When you show them the pic, make sure to describe exactly how it looks, like cotton as opposed to having little hairs, it makes a difference as to whether it's bacterial or fungal.

Edit: You can look for something with Potassium Permanganate as well, but I think that is restricted in Aus.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Thank you I have written all 3 down  

I will, to me it looks fluffy and like it's peeling off, definitely not hairy :/


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Also, check the pet store and see if they have fungus medication, a company called Jungle makes a lot of the anti-fungal medication. I know you had Pimafix in there before which treats fungal infection but just incase we need to hit it with something else, I'd like to know what they have.

Make sure to mention to the pet store that you had him in with Pimafix for a week.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay have also written that down too 

I got a text from the lady that was coming around tomorrow night saying she can come around tonight so going to get her to come over also  yes! Things are finally starting to look up, I hope I can help Bill before it's possibly to late!


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay I went to the petstore, got my money back on the kit and he tested my water and nitrites, nitrates were all at a good reading, I didn't get the numbers for them though sorry! But the ammonia was 0.25 he said it was closer to 1 though so it is high and he told me to do a 25% water change.

The lady came around and also tested ammonia and it came up as 1 by her test kit she added ammoblast which detoxifies the ammonia I believe she said, and she suggested doing a 25% change in about 3 days. 

As for his patch the pet shop guy told me to keep using the pimafix and the lady that came around said to use the pimafix and melafix together (they are both by the same brand and on the bottles suggest to use them both together ) so she added a dose each of them to my tank and I have to buy the melafix tomorrow after work which I can do as I've got a way there again like I did today which is awesome, she also put an Indian almond leaf in his tank and gave me another and she gave me two websites to buy them from. She came with a little kit full of stuff it was really good. 

So I really hope Bill starts to look up! 

She said the patch was possible ammonia burn that has become infected. She said she didn't feel like he was bloated as she has a bloated betta at the moment and Bill doesn't look like hers is, she also told me to feed him a pea and I had another lady on a Facebook group tell me to do the same. So I'm really confused at the moment as to the whole pea theory.. 

But I'm really happy so far with what has happened


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Well, really wish you could have had the test kit exchanged knowing the ammonia is good, wish you had nitrate and nitrite reading too, but looks like your cycle crashed (if you had it going to begin with). Since your ammonia is that high, you probably should do a little more, around a 50% change then you might have to do a 25% change every 3 days until your tank cycles. No more 100% water changes. Find out if your petstore carries Seachem Prime

That lady figures the same thing, Pimafix treats for fungal and Melafix treats for bacterial infection. I'm not a huge fan of Melafix, there is a huge debate about it harming labyrinth organ breathers, but there are people who say they've used it successfully. If that is what you can get your hands on, use it, I would have preferred a stronger antibiotic, but hopefully you won't need it. It would be nice to see what you had available at your pet store.

The whole pea theory supposedly comes from goldfish keeping and I don't use it myself. It is indigestible material to the fish so it is supposed to help clean out his intestines, but there's some controversy about using it for bettas as well. You can look it up on the web and see the instructions, you're supposed to microwave a frozen pea, then peel, mush it and give it to him. I much prefer frozen daphnia if your pet store carries it.

Indian Almond leaves are good for them, it will make your water brown though.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I'm going back to the pet store tonight and am going to buy an ammonia test kit and the melafix, none of the things you suggested where at my pet store but the lady has given me an awesome website to buy from (http://www.thetechden.com.au/) and I am going to get on tonight and order some more IAL, if you want to have a look in the medications section and see if there is something there that you think would be better for Bill or that he could do with having let me know and I'll purchase as well  

I wasn't keen on getting the same brand test kit in case the same thing happened again but I noticed they had ammonia tests by API which is the same brand I am using to test his PH with so that's what I'm going to buy tonight, I think they had nitrate and nitrite tests too, should I also get them? the test for those both came back good and the ammonia wasn't so I was thinking if I focused on the ammonia that'd be okay? 

Should I also buy something that helps detoxify the ammonia like ammoblast which is what the lady put in my tank? 

I really am on the fence about the pea theory I've had 3 people now tell me to do a pea for him, but then you have said not to and I think someone else on this thread has also, so my thoughts are; if there isn't a definite yes it's okay do it, then it shouldn't be done. 

The only thing I can find that would be good and has daphnia in it is this http://www.thetechden.com.au/Sera_GVG_Mix_60g_250ml_p/es194.htm
is it worth getting some?? 

Brown water I can deal with so long as it's benefiting and helping him I don't care if it's black  

Other than that, I feel like I am getting on the right track to fixing and helping Bill. He was out last night before I went to bed and he was hanging around the end of the tank closest to me, I wonder if he was letting me know he was starting to feel better? He was also eyeing the almond leaf similar to how he watches his food, he looked interested in it, it was cute


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I'll have a look when I get some time. Don't get the food, it's flakes.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay, thanks


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## ClassPet (Sep 18, 2014)

I have always thought it helpful to buy a new plant, or move his tank to give him a better or new view. Maybe add a new decoration or a picture (my kids draw pictures to put on the tank for the betta to look at. Our male seems to love the pictures the most!


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

That's so sweet! and cute, what a great idea, I added some new silk plants for him the other day, and when the indian almond leaf got put in he came out and had a look at it a little white later and decided he'd rest underneath it, I think I'll draw him a picture and put it up on his tank! thanks for the idea


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

New Life Spectrum Betta Formula or the New Life Spectrum Small Fish Formula
API Test Kit
That's what I see for now, I wish they had some silk plants, I'm sure he'd love some of that to play with.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I've said a couple of times now, I added some silk plants to his tank... lol and yes he does seem to love them although at first he wasn't too sure about them but he's obviously felt them and realized they are soft and nice he's been resting on them and I caught him on a leaf from one that branched out and under the Indian almond leaf so he was lying underneath the indian almond leaf. Lol 

Okay will look at those I did however buy an ammonia test kit and it's still at about 1 perhaps a bit less than, and I got ammolock which see toxifies the ammonia, it doesn't get rid of it. I feel like this is a good product to have though


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

*Help! again.. please*

I've got to revive this thread again, sorry. 

I'm still having issues with Bill..

The patch on his side that was white and fluffy is seeming to get smaller but it's now a brown colour and looks like scales coming off, so I am wondering if that means it's healing? I will insert photos. This is after a weeks worth of two treatments; API Pimafix and Pima Melafix I'll insert a link so the bottles can be seen (I don't have the bottle in the middle) http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/larger/lg-16877-59949-fish.jpg

I'm also thinking because his immune system has been down fighting off the patch infection he now has another issue - I've spotted two black fuzzes on parts of Bills tail! also will insert photos.

What are peoples thoughts/opinions on the matter. I do have the same lady that came out and treated Bill the first time coming again tomorrow night. 

Also, I have a siphon for Bills tank but I find it just doesn't work, it sucks more water up then the sludge! and half the waters gone before it's hardly even sucked up the sludge, I need another alternative here.. I do manage to scoop the sludge out with Bills fish net as I have rather large glass pebbles in at the moment and there isn't many so I can move them around and disturb the water to get the sludge to lift up and scoop it out.


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

The fuzzing is saprolegnia, he has gotten a light infection in his fin spines and the fungus has taken advantage, eating the dead tissue. It should break off in its own time if you keep the water clean. AQ salt to the water will help cleanse the sites of infection.
After antibiotics he will be a little weaker in general when it comes to infection, you will need to be highly vigilant with his water quality until in time he can rebuild his immune system.

The pictures indicate to me that it might be the infected scales are shedding. I can see a glimpse of skin underneath which looks clean and white which is a good sign. It should simply regrow the lost scales in time as long as he stays healthy and happy- adding extra protein to his diet can speed up healing (frozen bloodworms is a good way).


That being said of course it may be the angle of the picture, if you feel my observation of the skin and scales is wrong please correct me. Better to be wrong and told so of it than think you are right.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Oh thank goodness, I always assume the worst, like he's going to die which I don't want to happen, I feel I am killing him with kindness! lol but that's great, the 7 day course of treatments is due to finish tomorrow I believe, but I will check it could be today, and then I will add the AQ salt, how do I go about doing that - should I do a 100% change to get all the treatment out? 

That's great then! I feel that it's definitely shrunk in size and because it's going darker I thought that meant it was scabbing and healing. I will certainly give him some blood worms then in that case  

I'm unsure myself but it makes sense what you have said, because he certainly is more active now, has an appetite still, he flares and he's even begun chasing my finger when I put it in the water and trail it around his tank, so I figured he isn't getting worse so he must be healing!


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

A full water change is recommended yes. Best not to mix medications unless you know they can specifically go together.

Just be sure not to go over 10 to 14 days in the AQ salt before he goes back into fresh water. Prolonged use can strain his kidneys.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay thanks! I'll do that

I might do say 6 - 7 days, and then do I do a full tank clean again to get rid of the salt water? bit of a stupid question, but if I just did 25% or 50% changes it'd probably dilute it and I wouldn't need to do a full change but thought it'd be best to ask lol 

I'm super happy now knowing he isn't going to die or anything, I can't wait to go home and give him some blood worms!


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

I would do a full change after the salt just to save time. 
You can just start diluting it out by changing with fresh water if you like, eventually the salt will all filter out but it will take longer.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay thanks! and should I do 25% water changes during the week he's got AQ salt in his tank, replacing the salt once I've filled his tank up again for the salt I have taken out?


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Oooh how many blood worms should I feed him? He's had about 6 now I'd say, I've been using tweezers and dropping them in when he's finished one lol


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

A fish's stomach is about the size of his eyeball, so try not to go over that much no matter how they beg (bettas adore bloodworms, my own boys have been known to jump onto the spoon when I am trying to delicately lower them into the water).


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Haha! aww, kind of cute and naughty lol, he swam off not interested anymore lol


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I've got to ask - Since Bill still has the patch on his side that is healing and I want to do the aquarium salt to treat the light infection in his fin spines that has had fungus take advantage of (They have dropped off now) 

Do I do the AQ salt for say 7 days, do a 100% water change and then start up the treatment for Bills patch again? is it safe for me to give him a break from the treatment and not expect a negative effect from doing so?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

It is best to finish his antibiotic medications entirely first without having a break in between. If any bacteria lag behind letting them breed will only help create a resistant infection.

Keep his water nice and sparkling for now and hopefully he will do some healing for the rot while you are waiting


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

The treatments say to treat for 7 days which I've done, now what? Do I keep treating? Is it bad to keep treating beyond the time they recommended?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

Well there is a difference in remaining medicated past need and cutting medication too early- you see refusing pills halfway through a course might sound fine but what happens is t hat some of the bacteria lagged behind, the ones that were able to better fight against the anitibiotics. These can then breed again and erupt into a new infection which might be able to resist the antibiotics more. In humans the standard treating time for bacteria is two weeks. so a double dose is well within the reasonable limits. If the packets say a second use is allowed and you feel it is necessary then by all means continue.
Needless medicating on the other hand is the opposite. It will kill off the natural GOOD bacteria that live inside and on your fish that keep him healthy and stave off infections. This is a bad use of antibiotics.

It is really a juggling act. use your best judgement and remember that after antibiotics, good or bad, your boy will be a little more likely to come down with something (hence his new fin problems). In time he will rebuild, I used to have a boy that was always and I mean always sick. I used to make him share the big tank with his brother to help along his immune system.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I think I will keep the treatment going then since he still does have the patch on his side. He doesn't seem stressed over having treatment in his tank either, he seems happy. No other fuzzies have turned up on his tail spines, it was just two little fuzzes one more in the top of his tail and then another down a bit lower and they have dropped off just as you said. I've got to do a 25% change of his water again tonight too  I'll keep his water nice and clean and hope for the best.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

i have to respectfully disagree about Bettafix and any "betta" medication that ends in -fix. I've seen on many forums where these medications are NOT recommended because they DO damage the labyrinth organ. Just because the fish shows no outward or physical reaction to the medication, doesnt mean the labyrinth hasnt been damaged. The company who makes the product has got nothing to do with it, its the ingredients they put in it that cause harm. Not short term damage - long term.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

So why are these products still being made and sold? Surely it's a form of animal cruelty and I know here in Australia we have some pretty good laws for animal cruelty.


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## sharkettelaw1 (Mar 6, 2013)

because a lot of people are not well informed about bettas, hence why they're always being sold in cups and in bad conditions. People just dont know any better, which is why this forum is such a good thing.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I feel like they are being sold in cups and bad conditions because most pet stores don't really care and just want the cheapest way to display them so they can make the money from them, here in Australia bettas aren't sold in cups but they still have pretty small glass jars maybe a litre or 2 literally of water, but then there is one really awesome pet store which I am about to go to today and all the fish there have awesome sized tanks that are set up really nice  apparently they have some yellow half moon bettas in!


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

My new betta, Ben. Unsure what he is though. 
Bill's patch is now just being treated with Melafix, nothing else and looked really good this morning


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

I highly recommend you dilute out most of the melafix, it can be dangerous for labrynth fish like bettas (betta fix is just a dilute version of mela in fact)

He is a very lovely boy certainly! he has a lot of rays but I can't really tell with his fin relaxed like that. if you can get him to flare you can see how far around he can spread out his tail- this can pinpoint his type.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Okay, I wont add any tonight, I am impressed though it has healed him up good, and he's had blood worms twice now since you told me to give them to him, he wasn't out last night so he missed a meal which is probably an okay thing to do as someone has suggested skipping a meal once a week. 

I love him, and I thought Ben was a good name so he kind of goes with Bill lol  someone has suggested to me that she thinks he has dragon scaling :S which got me a little bit excited but I don't know :S I will try for some flare pics tonight


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I just wish Bill would hurry and get better, he seems so happy though he keeps zooming over to my face every time I put it at my tank as if to say " Hihihihihi!" it's cute, his tail is still getting black fuzzies on it. *sigh* maybe I should take him out of his big 20L tank and put him in his original tank and treat him in there? would that be easier? 

Heres some flare pics of my new boy Ben and a grump photo:


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

I'm thinking of taking some water from Bills tank he is in now and putting it into a smaller tank I have and making daily 25 or 50 % water changes since it's a 3L tank (0.80 gallons) I don't have a filter for it hence the daily 25 - 50 % water changes but I do have a heater. I'm thinking of keeping his water clean, an Indian Almond leaf, PH at a stable 7.0, and using aquarium salt only no other treatments and I'm going to try that for a week. I'll keep his 20L tank on with filter and heater to keep the cycle going while he's "away" 

Since you suggested AQ salt Taeanna to help keep infection away I think I'm going to give it a go tonight, I've had people tell me not to use salt, not to use melafix or pimafix, and I've been using mela and pima fix even though people have said not to so now it's time to do the salt even though people have said not to, obviously I'm only going to use a small amount since he will be in a like 0.80 gallon tank I've got to work the conversions out for that though, time to get even more serious, I want both my boys beautiful!

Edit: I'd like to add that he has a pinhole as well in his fin and I am a bit unsure how this has happened, he does have a mix of silk and plastic plants which I think I will remove, I just find it odd in the 6 - 7 months I've had him I've only just recently put silk plants in and I've never had a problem with pinholes or fin tearing. 
I'd also to rate the damage of his fin spines out of 100 I'd say between 30 and 40. If that helps give an indication of how bad they are.


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

Every keeper has their personal list of do and do nots. I have personally never had a problem using bettafix but I have since moved on to other forms of medication while others avoid it entirely. I have heard when it was first released there were a lot of problems with bettas, but since then the ingredients list has been altered. Still people prefer to stick to what they know and I cannot fault them, I do the same.
AQ salt is okay for bettas as long as it is not used long term. They can strain it out for a short time but prolonged use can affect their kidneys and lead to water retention. I always make a point to tell people not to go over 10 to 14 days before swapping back to fresh.

Pinholes are usually just the first sign he has had a blowout which is common in male bettas, though distressing for their parents. if the hole is clean looking then he has likely just caused a run in his fin, this might split into a small tear or stay a hole. This will regrow in no time.
If the hole however seems blackened and discolored then it is a sign of a more infectious rot.

As to his tail type, he seems to me to be a delta, possibly a super delta. You can use this chart to try and get a glimpse of him, or perhaps you can ask our show breeders. They can certainly tell them apart.
http://viper5000.net/aqualog/sites/default/files/Tail type.jpg


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

It's hard when I'm so new to this and am unsure on what treatments to use and I ask and I get like 3 different things and they all to someone else have a bad reason as to why not to use them so I try my best, I'm going to give the AQ salt a go just for a week so 7 days or I might do 6 just to be safe and keep away from 10 days because what you've said makes sense to me, to not go over 10 to 14 days. 

I think it looked like just a clean hole, I did try to look for it again this morning and I couldn't find it - feels like I'm seeing things! perhaps it's split into a tear and it's blended into his tail. 
I hope to god that when I go to look for it tonight that it's not still there and blackened. 

I'm actually excited I want to go home and get him into his smaller "quarantine" tank and do the salt, I'm hoping to get the results I want :S 

Okay thank you! someone suggested he's a blue marble dragon, super delta? something like that lol :S


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