# 1st breeding attempt....



## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok... So Vada has been floating nearly 5 days now, and Poisson has shown no reaction to her. In fact, he has pretty much been hiding behind his fave cluster of plants!! Is he just not in2 her, or what? At first, he had shown mild curiosity in her, but now only comes out 2 eat. Should I remove him & introduce a different male at this point?


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## umarnasir335 (Jan 9, 2014)

In a case like this, I would simply dump the female in.
Chances are that you have a very passive male, but I would still watch out for aggression and monitor the tank closely.
Most of the veteran breeders here let the pair have at it for 2-3 days without taking the female out, especially if the pair are virgin fish.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

He is a very mellow boy, and we originally had him in a community tank with guppies, mollies & swordtails. He never bothered any of them, and we ended up having to pull him cuz the male guppies, fin nippers that they are, started ganging up and bullying him. He wouldn't even flare at them, rather literally sat there & took it!!!
As far as attempting 2 breed him 2 Vada, just dumping her in with him seems a bit risky. She seems pretty passive from what I can tell, hasn't flared or gotten fidgety toward him at all since I began their intro, but I also haven't had her 4 very long. I don't want them 2 hurt eachother if turned out they're not compatible...wouldn't it be safer 2 wait & see if he starts attempting a bubble nest tho?


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## kevonnn (Feb 5, 2014)

Well he isn't showing any interest now. Things change when that invisible barrier disappears. Just monitor them for about 15 minutes.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok, I will try it this afternoon, thank u  If he still shows no interest, I may have to swap him out with one of my other boys... Possibly Merlin, tho he's a VT, cuz they both obviously carry purple lineage. I really want 2 strengthen the purple coloration in my fry, which is very pretty IMO, as is the rainbow pastel coloration of my 1st choice sire, Poisson ;-) 
The other option I have would b Jade, my green/pink HM, but I have a feeling that I would likely end up wih mostly rainbows & blues (?), tho I admit that color genetics isn't my strong point just yet. I'm looking at it from an artists perspective, and make my assumption based on blue being a primary base for both green (add yellow) & purple (add red)... Not sure if the same applies 2 genetics, but am definitely interested in learning more! 
My other male CT is a black copper & I'm not sure that combining these colors would produce attractive fry. I believe I would have a difficult time rehoming fry from this type of spawn, and don't want 2 risk it until I have a more thorough understanding of how genetics plays in2 determining coloration.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok... I'm sad 2 report that even after dumping her in2 my spawn tank with him, Poisson (CT) still shows no interest in Vada (CT), and has now taken up residence UNDER the filter intake. He seems almost afraid of her, tho she is vertically striping, looks engorged & her ovi-bubble thing is showing. I'm beginning 2 wonder if the bully guppies he originally had as tank-mates managed 2 somehow scar him psychologically... If that's even possible!! I'm not sure if I should proceed with this pairing, or if I should just start conditioning one of my other boys!! Plz advise? Thx guys
Again, this is Vada...

Here r my 2nd & 3rd choices..... 
Merlin (VT)

Jade (HM)

My other CT is (IMO) 2 dark 2 achieve the spawn I'm looking 4, but how color plays in2 genetics is still confusing 2 me. This is him....


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## umarnasir335 (Jan 9, 2014)

Fish are like people- you might need to give them more time.
So i would recommend that you leave the female in there for at least 6-8 hours and see if a bubble nest pops up.
You can even encourage the male by either floating another male in the breeding tank or showing him his reflection with a mirror.


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## kevonnn (Feb 5, 2014)

umarnasir335 said:


> Fish are like people- you might need to give them more time.
> So i would recommend that you leave the female in there for at least 6-8 hours and see if a bubble nest pops up.
> You can even encourage the male by either floating another male in the breeding tank or showing him his reflection with a mirror.


In a case like this, keeping them together unattended can result in a finless or even a dead male. Ask me how I know...


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

kevonnn said:


> In a case like this, keeping them together unattended can result in a finless or even a dead male. Ask me how I know...


That's my biggest concern.... I don't want 2 lose Poisson. I have tried the mirror trick, and even floating other males w/ him. He has never attempted 2 flare, either method. He is just indifferent 2 all of it. I just don't get it.... I certainly don't want her 2 become eggbound! With that said, assuming he doesn't change his attitude toward there being a ready & willing girl with him, which of my other males would be the best choice, since most of u have more knowledge/experience about genetics? Since I'm breeding 4 the 1st time, I am more interested in producing vibrant color, and eventually, as I gain more experience, improving on form & tail type...


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

Merlin is a DSVT, Poisson is a DSCT. Jade is a partial (?) DSHM & Hawk is a copper CT


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## umarnasir335 (Jan 9, 2014)

I wouldn't breed a CT with any other tail type unless you're committed to doing 3-4 generations of breeding in order to get your rays straight and even again.

CT ray reduction is sorta dominant, so breeding your girl with a HM or a VT will result in mostly odd finned fish, aka bad combtails. I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you will be heavily culling and doing F2s and F3s

Therefore, your other CT boy will be the best choice


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok.... It's been 4 hrs since I dumped Vada in2 spawn tank w/ Poisson.... His reaction? Still this....
 
She has ventured near him, showing curiosity... With no signs of aggression toward him, yet he won't come out of hiding... Look:

He reminds me of a dog I once had who would hide his face when he was in trouble, like he was thinking "if I can't see u, then u can't see me!". This behavior seems very odd for a betta, lol... And has me thoroughly puzzled! What next???


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## umarnasir335 (Jan 9, 2014)

Try the other boy. Maybe recondition the pair for a week if you want to try the same boy again


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## SorcerersApprentice (May 31, 2012)

I'd say try reconditioning them both. Keep 'em in solitary except to see each other ~10 minutes a day.

Also, I'd try a different breeding tank. If you have a successful spawn you're going to have a hard time keeping it clean with that gravel, and it'll be hard for him to pick up any eggs that fall. Stick with bare bottom and add some indian almond leaves if you can get your hands on them (or a styrofoam cup cut in half if you can't).


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

I really appreciate everyone's input... I will try reconditioning her w/ Hawk & see what happens. In the mean time, I will have 2 remove the gravel (ty SorceresApprentice) and see if Petsmart has these leaves u suggested. I am sort of limited on space, and can't set up a new spawn tank right now, cuz we are living at my mother-in-law's for the time being... and of course, rules are rules :-/ Shes's really not happy about my husband setting up the spawn tank on her kitchen counter, but is starting 2 warm up 2 the idea of having betta fry 2 watch, in addition to all of her guppy fry born every other day, lol! It took her a week 2 even notice Vada was floating in a cup inside the tank, then asked us last nite why she wasn't swimming freely in there & we had 2 explain the intro process 2 her. She was so happy 2 see her released this morning, and has been watching them like a hawk ever since. My husband thinks that if we end up with a successful spawn (regardless of sire), his mom will be bitten by the betta bug, lol! I'll keep ya'll updated on what we ultimately decide 2 do, and of course post spawn logs


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## kevonnn (Feb 5, 2014)

You don't really need a "tank". Go to walmart and get one of those plastic bins. It is cheap, simple, and cheap.


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## missavgp (Apr 17, 2013)

not sure you'll be able to find Indian Almond leave at either Petsmart or Petco. You might be able to find them at a more specialty fish store, from another local breeder or if that fails, you can get them from ebay or aquabid. I got mine from Amylim and they were shipped to my door in Ottawa, ON in less than 2 weeks from Thailand for $20, she pays the shipping for 100 grade A leaves.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

missavgp said:


> not sure you'll be able to find Indian Almond leave at either Petsmart or Petco. You might be able to find them at a more specialty fish store, from another local breeder or if that fails, you can get them from ebay or aquabid. I got mine from Amylim and they were shipped to my door in Ottawa, ON in less than 2 weeks from Thailand for $20, she pays the shipping for 100 grade A leaves.


Thank u, I will look in2 buying the Indian almond leaves on aquabid, and may try the styrofoam cup idea in the mean time


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## kevonnn (Feb 5, 2014)

PoissonsMom said:


> Thank u, I will look in2 buying the Indian almond leaves on aquabid, and may try the styrofoam cup idea in the mean time


Although some people say they use IAL as cover for the nest, the leaf does not float. After a day or two it will sink. The leaf is just there for what it releases into the water.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

kevonnn said:


> You don't really need a "tank". Go to walmart and get one of those plastic bins. It is cheap, simple, and cheap.


That does seem very simple, but I do have a few questions.... What size tub is that in pic, & how deep is it? I noticed u have a foam filter, which I'm not familiar with using. Are the plastic plants just floating in there? And how do u regulate temp? I have 2 b careful w/ setting up anything else.... As I mentioned b4, she really won't let me set up anything else, claiming my bettas r taking over her house. I have a 10g tank for 3 my boys, with dividers, am just waiting til we move to set it up, cuz she literally went off on me about having "another [email protected]!* tank" in her house :-(
As far as the spawn tank we set up, I had originally used it as my photo tank, lol... As u can tell by my albums! Removing the gravel is no problem, but from ur setup, I'm guessing I a hould leave the plants in there? What about my moon rocks... Take them out, or leave them? I have the filter turned down 2 the lowest flow setting, the water temp at about 80 degrees. My son pulled the temp strip off the tank, so I have 2 check it w/ a meat thermometer now, lol. 
I also have a question about live food. I've noticed many of u use vinegar eels & micro worms. What are they?? I have BBS & tubifex worms, and feed freeze dried bloodwormsas a treat....but I'm not familiar w/ the other things....


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

kevonnn said:


> Although some people say they use IAL as cover for the nest, the leaf does not float. After a day or two it will sink. The leaf is just there for what it releases into the water.


So the idea of floating a halved styrofoam cup is better as cover?


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

And also, here's an interesting update on my proposed pair... As far as Vada & Poisson, I haven't yet separated them, as they seem content just sharing the tank, lol. I think he's realized she's not in there 2 torture him & has actually started relaxing a bit... He came out of hiding 2 eat when I fed them this evening, and is now swimming around like he did b4 I dumped her. She has shown curiosity toward him, but never any type of aggression, so I'm thinking if they get along, I may just keep them 2gether a bit longer & see if they ever begin 2 attempt a spawn. I'm in no rush 2 produce fry, and have all the patience in the world, as long as she doesn't become eggbound.... In which case, as u all know, I do have 3 more boys on backup, just in case ;-) 
On another note, My green HM, Jade, has apparently taken a shine 2 my son's goldfish, who is his neighbor on 1 side, lol... He's made some pretty impressive bubble nests along the glass between them, and hangs out there, dancing & flaring...and the little goldfish just happily swims up & down in that corner, like he's lonely (not taking the risk tho, cuz the little guy is a confirmed fin nipper, that already killed 3 tankmates, also goldfish!). I know that some have advised against crossing CT w/ other tail types, but in a case of Vada becoming eggbound, Jade would probably be the fastest to condition w/ her... Even if it means generations of outbreeding 2 correct tail & fin issues. I do plan on spawning many generations 2 perfect my future show line... I'm a very patient & meticulous person


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## kevonnn (Feb 5, 2014)

Tub specs


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## kevonnn (Feb 5, 2014)

The plants came from Petsmart for very little $$$. They are weighted so they stay down.

The heater is a 50W adjustable.

There is an IAL underneath.

The filter is just a PVC pipe (1/2") with a bunch of holes drilled into it. The foam came from an unused tire cleaner/scrub thingy I had. You make a hole in the foam, but not all the way through. Add an airline with a bubble stone, as well as a way to keep it down and you are done.

I like the styro cup because it gets "sucked" to the side of the container when wet. It does not sink. It is soft (no sharp edges like plastic). You can see everything inside, unlike bubble wrap.


Patient...that makes one of us. Haha


EDIT:
I turned the filter off after the pair spawned.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

It's funny... Poisson & Vada r swimming freely 2gether in the tank, and content as can be. Neither of them seems interested in eachother as a potential mate, but neither are they attacking eachother! They r behaving like schooling fish & it's amusing 2 watch. When I fed them last nite, he hung back & let her eat, and once he saw she'd already eaten a couple pellets, joined her. I've NEVER seen bettas act like this b4! And honestly, I think my boy is being quite the gentleman, lol


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

As far as setting up a tub, that seems doable, but I need 2 figure out where I may b able 2 put it without making her mad ... I will certainly look in2 it tho. I'm still trying 2 figure out how she claims that my 5 bettas are taking over her house, when she has 200+ guppies & a 14" Pleco! Lol


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## SorcerersApprentice (May 31, 2012)

If she thinks it's taking over already, wait until you need to transfer fry to a grow out tank/tub and then start jarring!


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

We're actually just waiting on our tax refund so we can get our own place, lol.... That should b any time, which is y I started my spawn tank & conditioned my pair now. Hopefully I won't have 2 start jarring til AFTER we move, assuming they have a successful spawn. I'm sure we'll b out of here in the next 3 weeks, so I think I've timed it just right! Lol


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

I might add... I'll b so glad 2 get out of here... She tells me I go thru entirely 2 much fish food & accused me of feeding my bettas her tropical flakes (WHAT???). Her guppies go thru about 2 canisters (1oz) of flakes/wk, where my bettas get 6 pellets/day each... One container lasts me about 1.5mo, lol. I know that once we start growing out & jarring fry, food intake will go up considerably, but betta food isn't that expensive, like she thinks it is!


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## umarnasir335 (Jan 9, 2014)

Petsmart does carry Indian Almond Leaves- they're called Catappa Leaves and are usually found in the hermit crab section. I think you get 6 or so leaves for about $4, which will get the job done and then some


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

Ok, thank u  I'll check it out @ our local Petsmart!!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I spawn in tanks with substrate and my males don't have any trouble with it. But because with splendens you are going to be doing large, frequent water changes, I would advise you to strip out the gravel as it makes cleaning a much quicker process. 

Aside from the gravel, I am concerned about how safe that filter is for fry. Based on the picture (the one with the male hiding up against it), it looks like an internal power filter? If so, I'd be worried your fry are going to get sucked up into it. Most of those kind of internal filters are dangerous for fry due to their size and swimming ability. This is why breeders usually use sponge filters - or not filter at all. 

If it has slits for the filter intake, I'd cover them up with a stocking. 

Also, how big is the tank they are spawning in? If your fish do manage to spawn and you get hundreds of fry, they are going to need a bigger tank than 5-10 gallons once they start growing. 

While I don't like an overly aggressive male, I'd have reservations about spawning a male that sounds so incredibly docile. Bettas are aggressive by nature, and I feel aggression plays an important part in courtship. This could be why you are having issues. 

With that said, are you sure your fish are even ready to spawn? How have you been conditioning them? Spawning takes a heck of a lot out of fish and you want both male and female going in plump and healthy. I've found live and frozen foods the best at getting fish breeding ready as they seem to stimulate the natural hunting instincts of bettas and are much more exciting than pellets and freeze-dried foods.


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## PoissonsMom (Feb 11, 2014)

My spawn tank is a 5g acrylic.... Which is only for spawning. The only reason there is gravel in there, is because it is my photo tank (as u can see from my albums), when not attempting spawn. I'm going 2 remove the gravel in the next day or so, & I will unplug, or even completely remove the filter once they spawn. At this time, I have the regulator set (has 5 settings) to the minimum water flow. We will be movi in the next few weeks, and I will move fry (assuming a spawn b4 then) to a larger grow-out. I'm looking at a 15g & a 20g 4 this purpose. I also have plenty of mason jars on hand for jarring, when I need them. 
I started conditioning them a couple weeks ago, with dried tubifex and live bbs, and letting see eachother a short time every day. My male really had no reaction whatsoever to her at first, so once she started vertically striping & got balloony, w/ ovi-bubble, I started floating her in spawn tank. 5 days later, my male took 2 hiding behind plant or under filter intake. I chose at that point to just dump her in & give it time. My male is so docile that we originally had him in a community tank, with several types of fish, until he was nearly killed by very agressive, fin-nippy male guppies, which I think caused psychological trauma, lol... I have tried mirror trick & floating males in his tank 2 try 2 make him flare, but nothing (even when they all flare and dance at him). He is behaving like a school fish, or sorority female, and it appears the two are content to share the tank, with no displays of agression or dominance.... and sadly, no bubble nest)
I do however, have a couple other males on back-up, and if I don't see any progress, I will remove male, and recondition her w/ one of my other boys. I have thought long & hard about this, and was hoping Poisson would come around. I've had him for 3 yrs & would really like to spawn my own DSCT line, with him as my foundation... but given his lack of interest, am beginning to wonder if that will ever happen!


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