# Help with severe fin rot...Update



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

My betta has been in a 10 gallon for almost a year, I believe its cycled but I haven't been seeing nitrates which I heard means it's not? I just thought it was because I've been doing large water changes for months trying to get rid of the fin rot. 
It took me a while to notice because it just happened so slow. I started the aquarium salt route and it never helped so after a lot of googling I tried different medicine.
First I used ich x and maracyn, didn't work. Then I did kanaplex and furan 2 and that didn't work, I've also tried fungus guard and that did nothing. 
Two days ago I stopped meds and giving him a break. All I'm using now is almonds leaves, prime and api stress coat along with daily water changes. He's just getting worse. 
This picture was taken the day before yesterday and he looks way worse now. His tail now has holes near the base of his body so I won't be surprised if it starts coming off. The rot on his dorsal fin is just starting to reach his body and is starting to get discolored.
Surprisingly he's acting himself 90% of the time and eats good. He does flick himself against stuff now and then and about once a day he'll swim erratically into things.
But he seems to be getting worse by the hour, not sure if he'll make it. 
My question is should I focus on big water changes or more meds? 
I ordered methylene blue, it should come any day now but I have read it could be dangerous but at this point I'll try anything.
Any help is appreciated.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Housing:
How many gallons is your tank?
10
Does it have a filter?
Yes
Does it have a heater?
Yes
What temperature is your tank?
80
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
Air stone 
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind?
No

Food:
What food brand do you use?
New life spectrum and fluval big bites
More rarely, frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp 
Do you feed flakes or pellets?
Pellets
Freeze-dried?
Blood worms and shrimp
How often do you feed your Betta? How much?
Maybe 5 pellets once or twice a day

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change?
Once a week
What percentage of water did you change?
60-70%
What is the source of your water?
Tap(dechlorinated)
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water?
Substrate but it's hard with the sand and plants
What additives do you use? What brand of conditioner?
Prime

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water before the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:0
pH:7.5-8
Hardness (GH): not sure, but on the harder side? 
Alkalinity (KH):

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms?
Months ago 
How has your Betta’s appearance changed?
Torn up fins/ pieces coming off
How has your Betta’s behavior changed?
Not much just some rubbing on stuff and a little erratic swimming. 
Is your Betta still eating?
Yes
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how?
First used Ich x and maracyn 
Then kanaplex and furan 2
Then fungus guard
None helped
Does your Betta have any history of being ill?
No
How long have you owned your Betta?
A year
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased?
No


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hi, can you get us a picture of your entire tank.
Also, can you test your water again, those reading seem a little off for testing before the water change.


----------



## Ximirokerney (May 29, 2020)

I guess you should certainly test the water


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

It's probably because the daily water changes but I just tested again this morning and everything was still at 0.
Here's a pic of his tank, I took the wood out so there would be nothing for him to bump into. 
How much water should I be changing daily?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Water changes for regular are 50% a week in a 10g. While he's sick, you can do 2 x 25% - 50% a week is fine for him. Make sure to stir up his gravel really well, there's a lot of debris that can get trapped in there and affect his water quality.

Outside of making sure his tank gets a good clean, he's pretty much been hit with all the regular meds, I'll need to research a little. I've seen something like this with an older fish of mine, was never able to figure it out. Hopefully this isn't the same.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Water changes for regular are 50% a week in a 10g. While he's sick, you can do 2 x 25% - 50% a week is fine for him. Make sure to stir up his gravel really well, there's a lot of debris that can get trapped in there and affect his water quality.
> 
> Outside of making sure his tank gets a good clean, he's pretty much been hit with all the regular meds, I'll need to research a little. I've seen something like this with an older fish of mine, was never able to figure it out. Hopefully this isn't the same.


I thought daily water changes were a must with bad fin rot?
This is him now, this morning he had a few scales missing on his head. I actually thought he would be way worse this morning at the rate he's been going so I guess that kind of good lol He's been sleeping in late but he was super excited for his bloods worms so that's good.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

He's not doing too good. Yesterday and today he's been mostly hiding and when I try to lure him out to eat he starts frantically swimming and crashing into things. I hear him hit the lid really hard and then he goes back to hiding and then he started turning white from stress, I don't know what else I can do for him 

I haven't been able to get a closer look at him but I don't think he looks worse at least but I'm worried what's causing him to swim erratically, it looks like he can't control it, is it neurological?


----------



## Sanam (Aug 29, 2020)

Have you tried salt dips?? Watch a few videos on YouTube I find that might help


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Sanam said:


> Have you tried salt dips?? Watch a few videos on YouTube I find that might help


I thought of that but the stress of moving him will probably kill him by the way he looks right now


----------



## Sanam (Aug 29, 2020)

I get what you mean but as a last resort maybe try it. There’s people who SWEAR by aquarium salt and especially if nothing else is helping him


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

I believe salt was tried already.

Anyway, with as many things as you've tried, and with the behavior you just described I'm wondering if the kinder thing would be to put him to sleep


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

It's more about water quality than water changes when it comes to fin issues. Most people have their bettas in a 2.5 gallon tank which is why they are recommended daily water changes, since you have him in a 10 gallon, maintenance is much easier for you (which is why we always recommend to get as big a tank as you can).

At this point, I would try to get a hospital tank with just some fresh water, a heater, filter is optional and someplace for him to rest at the surface. Keep the tank covered and in darkness for as much as you can and if he's been off meds for a couple of days, start another round of Kanaplex.
The idea is to separate him from whatever is affecting him in his current environment, get him over he current hump and then figure out what's going on in his tank.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

It's been two days that's he's been staying at the bottom and not eating, I've also noticed reddish spots on him which is septicemia?
So last night out of panic lol I dosed the tank with E.M erythromycin and this morning he was up in his floating log and he ate some new life spectrum pellets! There was no erratic swimming either, he ate and went back in his log and I didn't see any red on him. 
I don't want to get my hopes up but he seemed a little better. 
Also whenever I cover the tank the temp shoots up high? Last night it went up almost 4 degrees just from a towel being over it! 

I like the idea of a hospital tank but I'm so worried because he freaks out if I move him. I think the most thing he'll like is the 5 gallon bucket, he's more used to that. Would that be ok? But it'll be hard to see and check him though. 

I have this thing I set up a few days ago that there's just plants in it. It's a few gallons with a heater and filter.

Here's a pic of him this morning and the other container I have. 
Let me know what you think.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Ok I just bought a 2.5 gallon for him. A few questions, the small heaters usually just go to 78 degrees and his tank is at 82 so what's the best way to acclimate him? Would the heater in the 10 gallon be too much for the small tank? And next, would I do 50% water change daily?
Thanks for the help.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi! What did you end up doing?
The water temperature could be attained through something like turning off the heater in the large tank and adding a little cooler water to get it a couple degrees closer to the smaller tank, that should be close enough.
I believe that's correct, 50 percent water changes.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Hi! What did you end up doing?
> The water temperature could be attained through something like turning off the heater in the large tank and adding a little cooler water to get it a couple degrees closer to the smaller tank, that should be close enough.
> I believe that's correct, 50 percent water changes.


I'm leaving him in his tank for now since his treatment takes 4 days to be completed, I wasn't sure if I should move him in between doses of medicine? 
I set up the hospital tank and luckily it goes to 80 degrees.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

If it will fit, you can use the same heater in the smaller tank. Unless a heater malfunctions even a 300 watt will work in a two gallon. The difference is it will heat faster. At least that's what I've observed.

Small adjustable heaters will heat as high as the larger one. Hydor is one and Hygger is another. I've used Hydor; not sure about Hygger.

If the heater you are now using is adjustable, lower it by one degree every 24 hours until it reaches 79-80. If the meds require 82 degrees then wait.

Use a thermometer and temperature match the tap water. I like to go a couple of degrees higher. Add the heater from the 10, leave unplugged for 15 minutes or so (more is better). When both tanks reach the same temperature move your boy into the smaller tank. No need to acclimate if parameters and temperatures are close.

As Mbpoppy noted, some people add cooler water to get temperatures down. I'm not a fan because if you mistakenly add too fast the temperature drops too quickly.

Can you post a photo showing the red spots?


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> If it will fit, you can use the same heater in the smaller tank. Unless a heater malfunctions even a 300 watt will work in a two gallon. The difference is it will heat faster. At least that's what I've observed.
> 
> Small adjustable heaters will heat as high as the larger one. Hydor is one and Hygger is another. I've used Hydor; not sure about Hygger.
> 
> ...


The meds in the tank right now is EM erythromycin, it doesn't say anything on the package about the temp. I'm just not sure how to move him to the hospital tank and not mess up the amount of meds. Like do I fill the hospital tank with all of the old water and then the next dose I add will just be the amount for a 2.5 gallon, Or wait 4 days until he's done with the meds? 

The red spots disappeared after I put the erythromycin in last night. I haven't seen him all day today because he's just been under his leaf.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

@Veloran is better with knowing what to do about meds than I and whether you need to move him during treatment or after.


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

You can move him with tank water and then redose with amount of meds appropriate for the tank size when it's time for the next dose.
It requires some calculations, and as much as I would like to see him in a hospital tank without all the extra items, it probably would be best to leave him where he if there's any fear accidentally overdosing him.

Temps that would affect the efficacy of the meds would kill the fish, so no worries about that.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> You can move him with tank water and then redose with amount of meds appropriate for the tank size when it's time for the next dose.
> It requires some calculations, and as much as I would like to see him in a hospital tank without all the extra items, it probably would be best to leave him where he if there's any fear accidentally overdosing him.
> 
> Temps that would affect the efficacy of the meds would kill the fish, so no worries about that.


I can get the exact amount, I'll do a tiny bit less if I have to. 
Also is it ok to put his floating log from his old tank in the hospital tank and also some almond leaves at the bottom because he goes under them?
Thanks so much for the help.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I got some rare footage of him out of hiding lol. He swam around, ate food, rubbed against the filter and went back under his leaves.
But surprisingly he doesn't look as bad as I thought. I thought his body would be rotted by now but it wasn't. It's just a little darker where his fins meet his body. His fins are destroyed but it doesn't look like it's spreading?

I feel so bad because I've gotten so close to using clove oil when he's laying at the bottom for 2-3 days straight and then I see him like this in the video and he's almost like his old self.

Today is day 3 of his meds, it says to do a 25% water change and dose again so I'm going to do that in the 10 gallon and then move that water to the hospital tank. Then tomorrow he'll get the last dose in the hospital tank(2.5 gallons) , ¹/⁴ of the packet.

He's also not swimming erratically anymore. 
Let me know how you think he looks, it really seems he's trying to get passed this, I was so worried about him suffering.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Good gracious, Mario buddy, look at you!!

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he continues like this!


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Good gracious, Mario buddy, look at you!!
> 
> I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he continues like this!


Me too


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hope he's getting better. I'd try to avoid putting his floating log into his tank if you can as long as you can get another resting place near the surface for him.
The idea of hospital tanks is to minimize the influence of his permanent environment.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I put him in the hospital tank last night, I thought he would get really stressed but he was fine and didn't even turn white. He was just swimming around checking it out. I didn't add the log but I don't think I have something to put at the top, somewhere I have his old leaf hammock so I'll look for that. I also added an air stone for the meds. He's just happy with the leaves at the bottom.
What's the best thing I should be feeding him that will help him heal? Frozen food?
One more thing, what am I doing with his main tank? Like how deep do I clean it. I might use this opportunity to switch back to gravel. The sand is hard to clean.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi! About the food, I think that something like New Life Spectrum or Bug Bites would be best, where it has whole meat/fish ingredients at the top of the ingredient list rather than meal or non-meat.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> Hi! About the food, I think that something like New Life Spectrum or Bug Bites would be best, where it has whole meat/fish ingredients at the top of the ingredient list rather than meal or non-meat.


Ok thanks, I'll do those.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

He swam around and ate today but he did do that erratic swimming, it wasn't as bad as before. I got some clear pictures of his body. I'm worried about all the discoloration at the back of his body. Can that even heal? Is it bacterial?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

If you mean the black coloration by his dorsal, he might be marbling. Keep an eye on it.
For his food, you can feed frozen if you get a variety, but for pellets, we recommend New Life Spectrum betta, Omega One betta or NorthFin bug bites brands. For Omega One, you can use the small fish formula, but the granules are pretty small.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> If you mean the black coloration by his dorsal, he might be marbling. Keep an eye on it.
> For his food, you can feed frozen if you get a variety, but for pellets, we recommend New Life Spectrum betta, Omega One betta or NorthFin bug bites brands. For Omega One, you can use the small fish formula, but the granules are pretty small.


I think it's definitely from the fin rot though. 
Should I clean his whole tank and not worry about killing the cycle since it might not even be cycled since it doesn't get nitrates anyway? 
Also, there's a lot more worms than I thought. I think detritus worms? I've seen him eat a couple, could it be harmful to him? 
Here's a video of the worms


----------



## AndreaPond (May 2, 2020)

While absolutely disgusting (to me) they are harmless to your Betta and it's a-ok if he eats them.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

AndreaPond said:


> While absolutely disgusting (to me) they are harmless to your Betta and it's a-ok if he eats them.


I hate any bug😆
I'm just worried that there's a large amount.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Gopher89 said:


> Should I clean his whole tank and not worry about killing the cycle since it might not even be cycled since it doesn't get nitrates anyway?


I'm not sure, but maybe? You were thinking about changing the substrate anyway


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I'm thinking to order some aqua soil.

I think there is nitrates but I kept thinking it was 0.
The tank hasn't had a water change in a few days and the ammonia and nitrites are 0 and this is the nitrates. I think it's at 5.0? It's so hard to tell
So it might be cycled after all. My next hundredth question lol is how do I disinfect the tank without messing up the cycle?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Gopher89 said:


> I think it's definitely from the fin rot though.
> Should I clean his whole tank and not worry about killing the cycle since it might not even be cycled since it doesn't get nitrates anyway?
> Also, there's a lot more worms than I thought. I think detritus worms? I've seen him eat a couple, could it be harmful to him?
> Here's a video of the worms


Definitely clean the tank. Beneficial bacteria are way more hardy than you think.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

He's looking a tiny bit better but now he's been floating, what should be done about it?


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

I don't know if anything can be done to make any difference. You are keeping his hospital container filtered?


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> I don't know if anything can be done to make any difference. You are keeping his hospital container filtered?


There's just a bubble stone and I'm doing 50% wc a day but I can put one in there. I was just worried about it stressing him.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

You're probably fine the way it is with the water changes, but maybe try it for a bit and see how he reacts? Thinking out loud, I guess the main thing is if the water parameters are ok without it, leave things as they are.
I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for you and your buddy!


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

How are things today?


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Mbpoppy said:


> How are things today?


He's a late sleeper so I won't know until later LOL He's under a leaf somewhere.
This was him last night when he ate, his colors look more brighter.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)




----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Good, let us know. His floating and his anal fin are areas that you want to watch.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I cleaned the tank and got new sand, it's more coarser so hopefully it'll be easier to clean. I'll probably wait a couple days to put him in just to make sure the parameters are good.
Also, the plants aren't too happy from all the salt and probably meds if they effect them at all.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Good, let us know. His floating and his anal fin are areas that you want to watch.


He's had floating problems before when I first got him last year. But it was something different. I think it was because we had bad Forrest fires here, the room even smelled like smoke and at the time he was in a bowl (I know ) so that made it worse. 
So I believe the smoke damaged his labyrinth organ and he like kept gulping air and he would bloat so bad I thought he wasn't going to make it. I put him in the 10 gallon and put the charcoal in the filter and he got better.


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Long term use of the salt can be a problem, but I have found that Furan-2 does not treat live plants well.
I always liked white sand, as long as it's not sugar sand, that makes a hell of a mess.
Can't recall if you have extra aeration in the tank, but it also helps them a lot since they do have gills that they can use, their labyrinth organ is mostly a backup.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Long term use of the salt can be a problem, but I have found that Furan-2 does not treat live plants well.
> I always liked white sand, as long as it's not sugar sand, that makes a hell of a mess.
> Can't recall if you have extra aeration in the tank, but it also helps them a lot since they do have gills that they can use, their labyrinth organ is mostly a backup.


Yeah, I've been using the play sand, way too..... sandy lol. This kind looks much better. 
I usually add a air stone just when I'm using meds but I think I'll just always keep it in there.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

He's still floating but he's starting to act a little more like his old self  He woke up at 4pm today lol but he was happy and "wagging" back and forth for food. He's been sleeping a lot so I'm thinking his body is just trying to heal up? I almost think I notice his fins growing back.

It's his back side that floats, how do you know if it's swim bladder disease?
You can see his back side going up in the video, he aslo rubs on stuff.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Is there any reason to be keeping him in the hospital tank since I cleaned the main tank? Or can I just put him back in his main tank?


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Are you comfortable with how he is doing currently? Maybe try it and see how he behaves/acts in his main tank?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Buoyancy issues can be caused by a number of different issues, I've even see it occasionally where they're playing when they do that. With SBD, they usually either bob like a cork or sink like a rock.
You can always put him back in his tank everything is clean. I would recommend leaving him in the hospital tank and letting the new tank run for a couple of days. If you have a test kit, also check the levels to make sure everything is stable.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I really want him to see his "new" tank lol but I also kinda like him in the smaller one while he's not 100%
I added a snail to his main tank that's been with the quarantined plants, I swear that snail poops more in a day than Mario does in 3 days haha but he cleaned all the algae off the anubias leaves!
Anyone know what this little bug is? I saw him while videoing the snail. I thought it was a baby snail but it looks like it has legs.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I think he has some new holes on his bottom fin but other than that he's doing good. He's also not floating anymore. The video is from yesterday, you can notice a white spot(not fuzzy) on his back tail and I think on his dorsal fin but today they were not there.
He's still in the hospital tank and I also put some aquarium salt in just in case.
Not sure if I should put him back in the 10 gallon yet which I got a lot of new plants for.
Either way, he's been real happy the last couple days






View attachment 1021586

View attachment 1021587


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Glad he's doing better.
If you have a test kit, you can test the parameters in his new tank to see if it's stable and put him back in.


----------



## Mbpoppy (Nov 3, 2019)

Thanks for the update 😊


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Sorry to bother you guys again but I just put him back in his 10 gallon and I'm noticing more now because the light is brighter but he has more noticeable white stuff on him, it's raised so it's not his coloration. If you zoom in on it you can see it clearly. Is it ich? Also I don't know if it's "stringy" but he has white poo looking stuff hanging on him.
I'm thinking to put him back in the hospital tank and try a medication.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Not Ich.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Is it columnaris?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Is it fuzzy or cottony or just discoloration on his scales?


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Is it fuzzy or cottony or just discoloration on his scales?


Neither, it's not fuzzy but it's not discoloration. It's raised like it's something on him?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Ok, I see the one at the rear now, it looks like it may be a cyst (or a tumor but leaning cyst).
Keep an eye on it to see if it grows. I'll need a little more detail on the one up front.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Ok, I see the one at the rear now, it looks like it may be a cyst (or a tumor but leaning cyst).
> Keep an eye on it to see if it grows. I'll need a little more detail on the one up front.


The arrow up front was just for a string of white looking poo hanging from him. 
But at the back it doesn't seem like a cyst, it's splotchy and spread around.


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Ok, this one is odd to me. May seem like a silly question, but do you have dry ferts or anything that can precipitate in the tank?


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Ok, this one is odd to me. May seem like a silly question, but do you have dry ferts or anything that can precipitate in the tank?


There's root tabs in the sand if that's what you mean but he first got this in the hospital tank and there's nothing in there. 
I don't know why he's having these problems with his fins. I've never gone over a week for water changes his whole life, it's so frustrating. Is there a broad spectrum medication I should be giving him that would be helpful?


----------



## Sanam (Aug 29, 2020)

I think it looks like a fungal infection personally


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Fungus would look more cottony but I cannot discount it. Since he is in a hospital tank, I'd like to see how if it progresses before starting him on a fungus cure.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Fungus would look more cottony but I cannot discount it. Since he is in a hospital tank, I'd like to see how if it progresses before starting him on a fungus cure.


He's out of the hospital tank but already had this before I took him out.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

Now the white stuff is pretty much gone from his back side and came up on his face and pelvic fins. It looks really strange if you zoom in on the white areas, I've never seen that before.
Also, in the last pic is that 'hole in the head' or is it normal?


----------



## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

This is a little odd to me too, let me do some digging.
Not sure about the hole. It looks to be where the sensory hole aka nostril should be.


----------



## Gopher89 (Aug 28, 2020)

I'm treating him with maracyn now.
It's looking more speckled and spreading. All of his blue is going away and now looks reddish brown? Other than that he's eating and happy.


----------

