# Looking to do a planted tank, need some help



## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay so due to many problems with tail ripping, biting etc with Koi I moved him to a 1 gallon. He seems to like it, but it is to much work for me now that I have a job. I don't have time to do 2 changes on it a week. Unfortunatly I still have another 2 gallon, but am thinking I can handle 1. So anyways I just bought a 5g for him and I want to use live plants so I won't have to worry about his thin tail ripping. I want to spend as little money as possible on this. So I am wondering what plants if any will work with a largish rock substate. I would also like it if their is a type of plant that spreads and will fill up more of the tank over time. I would also like the plants to be low matenience as I have around 1 day a week to spend caring for tanks. Which is why I am moving up to all larger tanks. Any suggstions, care tips etc would be much appreciated.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Not many plants will do well with a large size substrate, but easy to care for plants that do work are Anubias and Java Fern. Both are slow growing, and both do well in low light. Anubias actually needs low light, too much and the leaves will yellow. Both of these plants should not have their rhizome burried, the rhizome is the rooty mass at the base of the plant. The usual method is to tie it onto rocks or driftwood, but you can put it directly over the substrate if you wish too. These are slow growers though, so it would take a long time to fill out a tank. Java Fern would probably fill out faster.

You could try some Java Moss too.

Floating plants are also nice to have and Betta's will enjoy them, a good small one is Amazon Frogbit or an even smaller is Duckweed. Both can grow very fast requiring weekly thinning to keep the top from being over grown, you need to keep clear space for the Betta to breath. The thinning is just scooping some out, 10 seconds and your done.

With your new tank though, please keep in mind it takes 4-8 weeks to cycle and it is best if you do that before adding your Betta. You can read how to do a fishless cycle here: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...inners-guide-freshwater-aquarium-cycle-38617/


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

I know about the cycling and won't be putting him in until then. He was previously in a 10g, but he wasn't doing well as it was divided. I will start the cycling process tomorrow. 
I got some lights with the tank, and don't mind having to buy different lights. I just want to try and eliminate his tail ripping, that and I love the looks of the plants. the gravel isn't that big, but its bigger then the colorful rocks.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Anubias, java fern, java moss, wisteria, anacharis. Petsmart and Petco have most/all of these. You can also go to www.plantedaquariumscentral.com and use coupon code BETTAFISH when you check out for 10% off.

Other plants that will work (but may not be at local stores): pennywort, dwarf lily.

Watch out for the tubes at Petsmart - a lot of those plants aren't actually aquatic and will die when submerged. I think the ones that aren't are actually labeled "semi-aquatic" now. So look carefully if you go there.

Care tips... it's much easier to maintain a planted tank if your lights are on a timer, or if you can be very consistent with timing. You can get a timer for 3-6 dollars. Set it for 10-12 hours a day (mine are on for 11). Using a timer makes algae less of a problem. With a timer, you can also try using the "siesta method," which is supposed to be great for low-maintenance tanks without CO2 injection. When in the dark, plants produce CO2, and when in the light, they use CO2. The siesta method basically gives the plants a "break time" to produce CO2 during the day, so they don't run out by the end of the day. So, you turn the lights on for 5 hours, turn them off for 4 hours, then turn them on for 5 hours again. And, of course, keep them off the other hours of the day. People have had fantastic results doing this when compared to just leaving the lights on for a full day. Here's a link with some number crunching about it http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/67271-lighting-siesta-co2.html

Since you'll be using a gravel bottom, you may want to fertilize a little bit. Seachem Flourish (liquid) is a good brand and lasts a VERY long time (I've had my bottle a year, granted, I don't fertilize very often 'cause I have soil... but the dosage is about 1mL for 10 gallons... I just add a few drops, lol). It's pretty highly concentrated.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks, you have been very helpful!
I was at petsmart looking at their plants and all their plants were already fully submerged. Would it them be safe to assume they are aquatic? 
also for the fertilizer would I add it every water change?
So I was planning on starting cycling it today, but if I am using live plants can I still put the ammonia in? Or do I have do something different using live plants?
Oh and will be getting one of those timers. I am really hoping to get some java moss as I love that stuff. Thanks for all the help! I was going to wait to do a planted tank until we move, but things have had to speed up a bit in order to give them the best care I can. Also can I just use whatever water dechlorinater? I use prime mostly, but am still using stress coat + for a large tear in his fins. If need be can I use both those decholorinaters (not at the same time) with plants or do I need a different one.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Thanks, you have been very helpful!
> I was at petsmart looking at their plants and all their plants were already fully submerged. Would it them be safe to assume they are aquatic?
> also for the fertilizer would I add it every water change?
> So I was planning on starting cycling it today, but if I am using live plants can I still put the ammonia in? Or do I have do something different using live plants?
> Oh and will be getting one of those timers. I am really hoping to get some java moss as I love that stuff. Thanks for all the help! I was going to wait to do a planted tank until we move, but things have had to speed up a bit in order to give them the best care I can. Also can I just use whatever water dechlorinater? I use prime mostly, but am still using stress coat + for a large tear in his fins. If need be can I use both those decholorinaters (not at the same time) with plants or do I need a different one.


Yes, their tanks with water+plants are full aquatic. Just don't get anything with lots of roots.  Some rooted plants will do okay in gravel, but I wouldn't trust my word on which ones. XD I hope someone else can come around and let you know that. I -think- amazon sword does okay in gravel. You can always write down what kinds they have and go home and research them (or use a fancy smart phone if you have one  ). You'll want low-light, easy care/low maintenance plants that can grow in gravel or don't have root systems (stem plants are plants without roots).

Fertilizer is usually dosed once or twice a week. Adding it after your weekly water change would be good.  Try doing it just once a week to start, especially if you use siesta method, because you won't need as much with that. If you're not getting the growth you want after a few weeks, up it to twice a week if you so desire. I recommend starting at once a week just to make sure you don't get algae, because you'll end up just fertilizing algae instead.

Yes, you can add ammonia and cycle with live plants. The live plants will consume a bit of the ammonia, and will stay healthy that way, but it won't detract from your cycle since you're not doing a full on NPT (in which case, you don't need a cycle because the plants consume all the bad stuff XD). You can fertilize while doing this, as well.

Planted tanks aren't as hard to move as it seems like they'll be. I've moved one twice (one is a soil-based NPT, one was gravel).

Those dechlorinators are fine with plants. I use Prime, too.  As far as I know, any dechlorinator is fine with plants. It's some medications and salt you have to worry about.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Whats the difference between a NPT and just adding a few plants? I would be interested in not cycling lol are they harder to maintain?


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

Natural Planted Tanks just means low tech so no artificial CO2 injection. Some go further and use soil under a layer of sand. You can have equally beautiful tanks regardless on if you use sand, small gravel (less than 'pea size'), or soil.

High tech tanks use CO2 injection, either in a DIY way that works okay on small tanks, to using pressurized CO2 on larger tanks or when you want to control the exact amount of CO2. Aside from light, CO2 is the most in demand nutrient a plant needs, mainly the Carbon while they expel the Oxygen (O2). So for people who want fast growth and a lot of the red colored plants will go with bright lights and CO2 to achieve that. Typically in these set ups daily fertilizer is required and most use dry fertilizers.

High light, down to the upper end of moderate requires CO2 injection or you'll end up with an algae farm. Less than that you can get by with natural CO2.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Once you get a NPT going, it's not hard to maintain at all. The difference is a NPT has soil, whereas a plain planted tank is just sand or gravel. I have organic potting soil (no added fertilizers or chemicals and no poo) covered by a sand cap. Some people cover it with small gravel instead of sand or cover it with sand and line the edges with small gravel. I had a huge problem with ammonia when I first set it up (not enough fast growing stem plants when I first got it going and my soil made ammonia like crazy)... so next time I make one of these, I'm going to wait at least a week before adding fish. Research walstad planted tank if you're interested. 

A NPT is basically the closest you can get to a natural ecosystem in a little box. You don't even need a filter with an effective NPT, because the plants will consume all ammonia. The levels in my NPT are constantly 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate with 2 water changes a year (the water changes are really just to keep minerals going and freshen the water/remove some tannins to make it clearer... lol. I don't even think it's necessary). Just top it off and done. I have a filter for water movement and to remove particles I stir up when pruning or adjusting plant leaves. You can make NPTs in bowls to huge tanks, which is awesome. I want to do a few 2 gallon bowl NPTs when I have the resources. 

With a low-tech NPT, you don't use fertilizers, have low light (1-2 Watts per gallon), and no CO2 injection. These tanks GREATLY benefit from siesta method. Mine is kind of on the high tech end, getting away from NPT... I have high light, so I use DIY CO2 and a bit of fertilizer.

Here's my NPT... it's been going for a little over a year, but just recently really started growing because I realized my light was too high to not have CO2... so I added CO2 about a month ago and it's exploding:


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

I have been talking to OFL about doing one of these. I love the idea and I can only imagine how much better it must be for the fish! And they look amazing. This is the plan for me new tank. Around how many plants will I need to get this started so it actually works? And then would a 25w bulb work or will I need more or less? And what is that grass like stuff you have? I love it. I would like to get away with no fertilizer or CO2. And I also plan on going filter less. And just having the heater.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> I have been talking to OFL about doing one of these. I love the idea and I can only imagine how much better it must be for the fish! And they look amazing. This is the plan for me new tank. Around how many plants will I need to get this started so it actually works? And then would a 25w bulb work or will I need more or less? And what is that grass like stuff you have? I love it. I would like to get away with no fertilizer or CO2. And I also plan on going filter less. And just having the heater.


25W might even be TOO much for a 5g. Talk to OFL about that, for sure. There's more into it than just wattage and I know she has/has had 5g NPTs without filters. She can probably tell you the exact brand name of the bulb that would work best.

Sky is absolutely FLOURISHING in his NPT... you wouldn't even know he's 2 years old, because his colors get more vibrant everyday. It's so stable with perfect water quality for them.

You'll need quite a few fast growing stem plants to start out with. Frogbit, anacharis, hornwort (I hate hornwort and don't particularly recommend it), java moss, wisteria, water sprite would be good starting points with that (you can go with just one or two of those types, of course). There are other plants you can use, too. If you Google and research walstad planted tank or natural planted tank you'll get a longer list and some pictures that show just how much people used. You'll need a decent bit, but not a tankful.

I have 3 types of grass, haha. The tiny hairy stuff is dwarf hair grass (http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscen...arf-Hair-grass-foreground-plant-dwarfhg01.htm). I got it last month and it's starting to grow like crazy. I want it to carpet the whole bottom, and it's on its way to doing that. 

The mid-size grass is dwarf sagittaria (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=768+827&pcatid=827).

The tall, crazy growing grass is vallisneria (http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscen...talian-Vals-tall-background-plant-itval03.htm). GET SOME! XD It's REALLY good for a NPT to keep the anaerobic pockets down, because it spreads like wildfire and each tuft has a pretty extensive root system. Root systems eliminate the pockets. I also recommend amazon sword for that (that's the huge green plant in my picture on the right side). You might not like how big it gets in a five gallon, though... it gets huge, as you can see. Can always prune it down.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

The soil type recommended by Diana Walstad herself is Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix. That's what I used... you'll want to let it air out on a tarp/garbage bag for a day and pick out the big sticks and rocks. OFL uses dirt from her yard but I don't trust my parents' yard dirt, since my father sprays stuff out there, lol. For sand cap, you can just use play sand to keep costs down. I wanted black sand, but it made it eeexpeensiiivee. I think there -are- some darker play sands, though.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay, will write down a list for when I go to petsmart. I am really exited about starting this. I just hope Koi likes it as he seems content in his 1 gallon. I was planning on getting at least 1 amazon sword as I really like it. Thanks for all the help! Anything else you can think of to add would be awesome. I am hoping to get the things in the next few days.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

I am planning on using some dirt. I know some places that haven't been sprayed and that my chickens haven't gotten to yet.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> I am planning on using some dirt. I know some places that haven't been sprayed and that my chickens haven't gotten to yet.


Haha, awesome! I want chickensssss. XD


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Oh! And definitely consult OFL about other plants you can use to start it out. She'll know what's cheap and what works because she's done this so many times.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

I love my chickens. And I am just waiting for her to reply to my last message. She and you have been ever so helpful though! I just worry about doing something wrong and harming Koi in the process. 
I have started a short list, and hope that one of the few petsmarts near me will have some of these and I will be able to get them for under $25. Not sure if it is possible or not.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> I love my chickens. And I am just waiting for her to reply to my last message. She and you have been ever so helpful though! I just worry about doing something wrong and harming Koi in the process.
> I have started a short list, and hope that one of the few petsmarts near me will have some of these and I will be able to get them for under $25. Not sure if it is possible or not.


A lot of people, including OFL, add fish the same day. But they've also done this a lot... As long as you wait to make sure you've got no ammonia and keep an eye on it and nitrite and nitrate (there will be a bit of a biofilter in the soil, so check for nitrite, too), Koi will be fine!


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay thanks!


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

kfish said:


> The difference is a NPT has soil, whereas a plain planted tank is just sand or gravel.


This is something I strongly disagree with, there is nothing unnatural in using sand or gravel and there are numerous places in the regions these fish and plants live that are sandy or rocky.

Success can be had using either substrate, with equal effort. Soil is actually one of the most difficult substrates to work with initially, and isn't something I would recommend to someone doing their first planted tank. If you like to start with hard and want the challenge go for it. I've nothing against people using soil in their substrates but I suppose it is a pet peeve of mine for people to say it's better, or it's easier. It isn't, success can be just as easy with plain gravel/sand.

As a case in point I'll reference another users tank that is low tech and uses regular play sand for a substrate: Amazonian Riverscape 115g - 115 gallon Freshwater fish tank

In regards to the use of fertilizers, only substrate rooted plants will benefit from nutrients in the substrate. All other plants get their nutrients from the water column.

A good place to start is here: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...approach-natural-planted-aquarium-part-34861/

Tropicalfishkeeping.com is the parent site of bettafish.com, this is only a small sub-forum of a much larger community. It's a good place to go if you want more specific advice on aquarium plants with several knowledgeable people. You probably don't even need to make a new account to post there, since they are technically the same site. At least I don't, but I created my account there.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Well for me soil would be cheaper as I am going to get it out of a yard. And then I am just going to put dirt. it may be a little harder but I personally don't mind as I have been wanting to switch most of my tanks over anyways. And I like the look. Thank you for your input though!


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Geomancer said:


> This is something I strongly disagree with, there is nothing unnatural in using sand or gravel and there are numerous places in the regions these fish and plants live that are sandy or rocky.
> 
> Success can be had using either substrate, with equal effort. Soil is actually one of the most difficult substrates to work with initially, and isn't something I would recommend to someone doing their first planted tank. If you like to start with hard and want the challenge go for it. I've nothing against people using soil in their substrates but I suppose it is a pet peeve of mine for people to say it's better, or it's easier. It isn't, success can be just as easy with plain gravel/sand.
> 
> ...


I suppose I should have been more specific and used the term "Walstad natural planted tank," because that's what I'm talking about. I don't think it's hard (Walstad NPT, that is, with soil substrate) at all to set up and keep going... because you don't need fertilizer and you don't have to vacuum or change water. The mulm produces fertilizer for the soil and the water column.


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## Geomancer (Aug 23, 2010)

kfish said:


> I suppose I should have been more specific and used the term "Walstad natural planted tank," because that's what I'm talking about. I don't think it's hard (Walstad NPT, that is, with soil substrate) at all to set up and keep going... because you don't need fertilizer and you don't have to vacuum or change water. The mulm produces fertilizer for the soil and the water column.


You don't have to clean the substrate regardless, however in terms of no water changes that is extremely dependent on fish load and does not work with the stocking levels most people prefer to go with (speaking of community aquariums here). There is a lot more to consider with water changes than just nitrate levels. Most with heavily planted aquariums only use a filter with mechanical media in it to remove floating objects and keep the water clear, they do not use chemical (carbon) or bio media (ceramic rings, balls, etc).

The nutrients in soil is a short term solution, they will eventually run out just like they do in terrestrial gardening.

Is is just a different method to the same result, that's all I'm saying.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Geomancer said:


> You don't have to clean the substrate regardless, however in terms of no water changes that is extremely dependent on fish load and does not work with the stocking levels most people prefer to go with (speaking of community aquariums here). There is a lot more to consider with water changes than just nitrate levels. Most with heavily planted aquariums only use a filter with mechanical media in it to remove floating objects and keep the water clear, they do not use chemical (carbon) or bio media (ceramic rings, balls, etc).
> 
> The nutrients in soil is a short term solution, they will eventually run out just like they do in terrestrial gardening.
> 
> Is is just a different method to the same result, that's all I'm saying.


Nutrients in the soil are replenished by the mulm. Fish and snail poo and decaying plant matter. Just like in terrestrial organic gardening. Sometimes it is appropriate to break a tank down and re-soil it, but this is only to eliminate anaerobic pockets after a few years of a Walstad tank being set up.

In a WNPT, if you stock appropriately and have good plant growth, regular water changes to remove nitrate are not needed, as there should be none. Presence of nitrate means there's something wrong with your Walstad planted tank and you need to figure out the balance. However, in a Walstad tank it is ideal to do 2 water changes a year, if for nothing else than to maintain GH and kH. GH can't be added by soil, so people add crushed coral or non-pH affecting sea shells. Water changes add it, too, as long as the water source is good. GH and kH should be checked, anyway... I check mine once a month to make sure I don't need to change a bit of water out to adjust those levels. I check the GH and kH of the tap first to make sure it's as hard as it should be.

I don't use biomedia or carbon in non-planted tanks, either... foam works fine for holding bacteria and removing debris. I don't think it's necessary in any tank, but especially not in a NPT of any kind.

I don't think one is better than the other - it's based on personal preference and what someone thinks looks best... I personally prefer soil substrate for NPTs.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

> Well for me soil would be cheaper as I am going to get it out of a yard. And then I am just going to put dirt.


Will it be necessary to cap the dirt with some sand or something?


Also, I am not sure how expensive plants are over there, but $25 won't get you all that many here - most are $6.95 each or more. Probably the best value for volume IMO was the java fern - I bought two bags of it for six dollars each and this gave me a pretty large, dense clump. Not enough to stock a 5g NPT of course, but it fills a whole corner of my 3.5g planted tank and apparently does a lot to help keep the water clean, so it's definitely value for money.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

So talking to OFL she said I should get at least 2 or 3 different stem plants, and a lot of floating plants. I am looking at hornwort, water wisteria, moneywort, anibus, java fern. I am hoping that petsmart may also have the floating plants. What did you use for your tank?


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Aus said:


> Will it be necessary to cap the dirt with some sand or something?
> 
> 
> Also, I am not sure how expensive plants are over there, but $25 won't get you all that many here - most are $6.95 each or more. Probably the best value for volume IMO was the java fern - I bought two bags of it for six dollars each and this gave me a pretty large, dense clump. Not enough to stock a 5g NPT of course, but it fills a whole corner of my 3.5g planted tank and apparently does a lot to help keep the water clean, so it's definitely value for money.


Yeah I am beginning to see that. And its okay. Though if they have the plants I am looking at and the prices are around the same in store as online I think I can get away with under $40.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> So talking to OFL she said I should get at least 2 or 3 different stem plants, and a lot of floating plants. I am looking at hornwort, water wisteria, moneywort, anibus, java fern. I am hoping that petsmart may also have the floating plants. What did you use for your tank?


I used hornwort, anacharis, pennywort, java fern, anubias (doesn't really help with the start up thing because it grows so slowly, just looks pretty XD), wisteria. I already had them all so I can't give you an idea of start up cost... 

I did spend about $40 on rooted plants shortly after, though, because of anaerobic pockets: Amazon sword, red rubin sword (mine died back a lot but it's coming back now!!! so excitedddd... the plants HATED my parents' super soft water so everything's doing a million times better at my apartment now), vals, dwarf sagittaria, dwarf lily (not really rooted, it's a bulb), and some other stuff that died (>_<).


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay. I hope I can get all the right plants. Hopefully can get to the store tomorrow and then will find out.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Okay. I hope I can get all the right plants. Hopefully can get to the store tomorrow and then will find out.


If not, shipping at plantedaquariumscentral.com is flat rate priority mail. So get everything you need at once and use the coupon code.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

haha it would be a lot easier to get them from the store and I think I can get everything except maybe the duckweed at petsmart. if I can't find that I think I will order it off ebay.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> haha it would be a lot easier to get them from the store and I think I can get everything except maybe the duckweed at petsmart. if I can't find that I think I will order it off ebay.


I want floating plaaantsssssssss. Don't forget to take pictures after you set it up!


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

OFL told me they were a must, so will probably get some. Am going to keep reading up on the NPT in the morning. Also what do you do to stir up your dirt or air it out? She told me to get some snails. And of course I will post pics!


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> OFL told me they were a must, so will probably get some. Am going to keep reading up on the NPT in the morning. Also what do you do to stir up your dirt or air it out? She told me to get some snails. And of course I will post pics!


I have snails and I poke it with wooden chopsticks.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

it was a certain type of snail. How often do you have to poke it? And how much?


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> it was a certain type of snail. How often do you have to poke it? And how much?


Nerite snail (if you get some, make sure they're fresh water ready). In the beginning, I had to poke it A LOT. A lot a lot a lot. Like, twice a day everywhere. I had major anaerobic pockets. I now have pretty much none, because my tank is full of roots. So, I poke it like once a week now when I prune and adjust "branches."

EDIT: Wait, no it's TRUMPET snails. XD


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

She suggested a trumpet snail. said with one of them I wouldn't need to poke at it. If I can't find them then I will use that method. Might need to do it anyways to begin with.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> She suggested a trumpet snail. said with one of them I wouldn't need to poke at it. If I can't find them then I will use that method. Might need to do it anyways to begin with.


Yeah. I got some MTS on live plants I bought, lol. RARELY see them and they never seem to get very big.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

So can you tell me more about the method you use? It seems different from what OFL is telling me.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> So can you tell me more about the method you use? It seems different from what OFL is telling me.


The poking? I just use either my finger or a wooden chopstick and poke the soil and wiggle it around a bit. But, by all means, listen to OFL over me. She knows waaaaay more. What method is she telling you? I may have to start doing that instead.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

It's not to much different from the walstad way. But it sounds like it's working for you without the floating plants. So I just wondering how much they are needed.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> It's not to much different from the walstad way. But it sounds like it's working for you without the floating plants. So I just wondering how much they are needed.


OH. My anacharis and hornwort have always grown like CRAZY. I had more of them than I knew what to do with and ended up just putting bunches in the turtle tank for him to eat, lol. They're technically kind of floaty? Haha. I dunno. Maybe that's what compensated for me not having floating plants.

Since bashing the glass panel on my hood out to get direct light from the lights, the hornwort gets too much light and has slowed down. But I don't need floaty plants now that it's all established, anyway. It wasn't an intentional thing... I wish I'd had them - just couldn't find the ones I wanted. I had a bit of pennywort but it never did well and now I just have one little stem of it left. Now that I've adjusted my tank to where stuff is growing better (except the hornwort, but I'm thankful for that, haha), though, it's starting to grow. So hopefully it'll propagate.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay I see. How long does it take to get it established?


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Okay I see. How long does it take to get it established?


I think it really depends... better to ask OFL that because of all of her experience. Probably immediately to a week if you've got enough plants, but some people add fish immediately and it's fine immediately. I would always double check before adding fish, for me, though. I worry too much.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay. I will probably let it sit around 24 hours. Koi seems to stress easily so want to make sure the conditons are as ideal as possible. I probably wouldn't do it for a while, but how would this work in a divided tank? I am hoping if I have good growth I will eventually start putting plants into my divided ten gallon. So just wondering if it would work. Another thing I was reading is some people use some type of filter just at night to stir up the water. Would just any filter without the cartirage work for that? Or what are your opions on that? For me it would be ideal to not use a filter as my dad has been complaining I have to much stuff plugged in lol


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## Aside (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm just stalking this. Reading through I'm thinking of making Dahli's new tank a npl.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Okay. I will probably let it sit around 24 hours. Koi seems to stress easily so want to make sure the conditons are as ideal as possible. I probably wouldn't do it for a while, but how would this work in a divided tank? I am hoping if I have good growth I will eventually start putting plants into my divided ten gallon. So just wondering if it would work. Another thing I was reading is some people use some type of filter just at night to stir up the water. Would just any filter without the cartirage work for that? Or what are your opions on that? For me it would be ideal to not use a filter as my dad has been complaining I have to much stuff plugged in lol


Definitely keep checking ammonia and nitrite (nitrite, too, because the soil will have nitrifying bacteria in it) a few times a day after setting it up after you put your fish in there. It can just suddenly spike. X_X After it's fine for like a week, you can ease down on the testing, haha. Once a day, then every other day, etc.

I think it'd work the same in a divided tank! I don't see why not... I've thought about doing that and I think I will at some point... probably just leave the divider glued in or however you have it and fill the soil and sand cap in around it.

I have a filter in mine, but it's just to get rid of the stuff I kick up when I put my hands in there and add water and such. Some people seem to think it's necessary for the plants... maybe that's true for some types of plants? You don't need one. Closely monitor it from the start and get good plant growth and it should take care of itself. If you do want to do that, yes, any filter without a cartridge will work for that. If you want it to remove debris, too, you can stick a filter sponge in there.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Hey! And welcome to the forum. Feel free to chime in with questions! You may think of something I didn't! 
I have to say it seems pretty basic. my biggest concern is not getting enough plants. I guess if I get to many to fit in my 5 gallon I can put some in my divided 10 g. Have been thinking about starting to use live for a while. Even more now that my boys tails keep getting destroyed and not sure if its them or their plants.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Aside said:


> I'm just stalking this. Reading through I'm thinking of making Dahli's new tank a npl.


DOO IIIIT. It's not as hard or complicated as it sounds. And so pretty! The biggest concern really is not getting enough plants, haha. And having the right kind of light.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Whats your favorite plant in your tank?


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Whats your favorite plant in your tank?


Hmmmmm.... probably between the dwarf lily and the dwarf hair grass. I think once my red rubin sword comes back completely, it'll be my favorite.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

I hope I can find some of the hair grass. I love the look of it, would it count as a stem plant or not?


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> I hope I can find some of the hair grass. I love the look of it, would it count as a stem plant or not?


hmmmm I doubt it. It's not an incredibly fast grower and it can be kiind of finicky. I found mine at Petsmart in a little bag thing by their tube plants... but it was expensive. $8 for a tightly packed package of tufts. I got a decent bit for $8 (ended up being 5 good sized rows), but it was still $8. I took a gamble because I really wanted it and thankfully it loves my tank! You might want to wait to get some until you make sure your other plants are doing well, just to avoid wasting money on it.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

It's not good to run a filter part-time. All or nothing is the general rule, I think, and some plants don't seem to do well without one, in my experience.

Wisteria is really easy to grow and has 'babies' a lot - fallen green leaves with roots on. It can also be floated - mine has been for months. It's a nice 'resting spot' near the surface for my betta, who sleeps in it, and has pretty foliage too. I think it's my favourite plant so far.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Aus said:


> It's not good to run a filter part-time. All or nothing is the general rule, I think, and some plants don't seem to do well without one, in my experience.


Do you happen to remember which plants didn't grow well without a filter? I'd love to know for future reference!


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## Aside (Mar 20, 2012)

How many plants do you think is a good start for a 5 gallon?


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Thats what I want to know to. I think I will probably end up over buying. Hope not, but am thinking it will be the case since I don't want to little. Though maybe just so I can add a few in with my boy Arashi...


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

This is one of the sites I used in setting up my tank:
http://thegab.org/Plants/step-by-step-setting-up-a-walstad-type-natural-planted-tank.html

Has a nice example of plant numbers for a 5 gallon. Something like this would probably work fine: 3-5 (or more if you want) stem plants (anacharis and wisteria would work well), a few rooted plants like crypts (2, or more if you want), 3-4 tufts of grass with runners (I LOVE VALS!), and a small mass of floating plants. I think it'd be safe to supplement anacharis, hornwort, or wisteria for floaty plants, because they can all float and grow fast... worked for me, anyway.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay thanks. I think I havea good list of plants. Just hope I can find them all.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay so went to petsmart and got 3 packs of wisteria, 2 packs of cabomba, and 2 packs of moneywort. Thats all they had in the stem plants, so I also got anubias, and then sword grass. I am floating the wisteria. And I got a bag of rocks unfortunatly it wasn't quite enough but it will have to work. Under $40. Unfortunatly I don't think I have enough for a NPT. 
The water is super cloudy though I cleaned it 3 times. The first time it was black so it is a big improvment. Anyways I have read that with plants the tanks will cycle a little faster, so I am hoping that is true. And maybe over time I can get enough plants to make it natural. I will post pics once the dirt starts to settle down. I still have to throw in a heater. 
How would I tell if it working or not?


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Okay so went to petsmart and got 3 packs of wisteria, 2 packs of cabomba, and 2 packs of moneywort. Thats all they had in the stem plants, so I also got anubias, and then sword grass. I am floating the wisteria. And I got a bag of rocks unfortunatly it wasn't quite enough but it will have to work. Under $40. Unfortunatly I don't think I have enough for a NPT.
> The water is super cloudy though I cleaned it 3 times. The first time it was black so it is a big improvment. Anyways I have read that with plants the tanks will cycle a little faster, so I am hoping that is true. And maybe over time I can get enough plants to make it natural. I will post pics once the dirt starts to settle down. I still have to throw in a heater.
> How would I tell if it working or not?


Yeah, it will be cloudy (possibly for a few days)... especially if you don't have enough rocks! I should have told you how to fill it to prevent a bit of that. x_x sorry. If you cover the bottom with slit open Ziploc bags and put a plate over that and pour the water down your wrist and into your cupped hand slowly (while your hand is at the water level, starting on top of the plate), it will be considerably less cloudy upon initial filling. For your future water-adding, just pour the water down your wrist and into your cupped hand (your hand should be resting just in the water). It won't mess up the soil at all.

Just test the water a lot... that's the only way to tell if it's working! Don't add your fish until you're sure the ammonia and nitrite aren't spiking. You'll be able to add to it later to make it self-sufficient. You might have enough. If your ammonia and nitrite levels stay down, you probably do.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Well I figured out how to do it, after the first time I dumped in water lol, I tried to use my siphone, but that decided not to work, so them I just took his cup and drizzled the water out until it was full enough I could put water in without disturbing the dirt. Nother quick question my water already has some ammonia, so if it is working would that mean their would be no ammonia? I don't have the filter running yet, as the flow was disturbing the water have to go make a baffler for that. But am still wondering if I should or not..


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Well I figured out how to do it, after the first time I dumped in water lol, I tried to use my siphone, but that decided not to work, so them I just took his cup and drizzled the water out until it was full enough I could put water in without disturbing the dirt. Nother quick question my water already has some ammonia, so if it is working would that mean their would be no ammonia? I don't have the filter running yet, as the flow was disturbing the water have to go make a baffler for that. But am still wondering if I should or not..


Sometimes the soil just has ammonia... mine did. It took about a week or two for it to go away. Your plants have to get growing first.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

I have tested our water and we have 0.25 ammonia so my tanks always read that. I just tested and their are no nitrites. 
So what are your oppinions should I cycle or not?


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay so I am not sure if I have the wisteria or moneywort floating. If you could tell me that would be awesome. The guy threw them all in one bag. I just went off the lables at the store lol so not 100% what is what. Also is the camboa to thick? I am wondering if it is blocking to much like the mini sword grass. The bulb is 15w and 5600k or something like that. It's one that OFL suggested so I hope it will be bright enough for them.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

It looks really nice!

Your bulb is good, of course.  You have the wisteria planted and the moneywort floating.











Your wisteria will most likely die back a little bit and produce differently shaped leaves. They'll end up like this:









Wisteria's leaf shape changes based on the conditions it's in (water temperature, light amount, whether or not leaves are growing in water or out of water).

I really like that grass! It's supposed to grow really fast.  I think it'll be okay with the cabomba over it like that. Just keep an eye on it. The cabomba seems to be in your tank's "dark corner" (we all have one), though, so I'd worry more about that. You might have to move it if you notice it's not growing in the next week or so. Put the anubias there if you do move it... it'll appreciate the lower light level.

I'd just watch the levels for the next week or two before adding a filter for cycling... the soil can hold bacteria for a cycle, as well. Test the nitrate at the end of the week when you do your other testings.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay thanks. I will rearrange the moneywort and wysteria tomorrow lol I though I may have made that mistake. I will keep an eye on all the plants and watch how they are growing. How long do you think before I should add Koi?
Also should I notice a change? Or will they just stay totally normal?


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

To answer the plant question: I lost the majority of the wisteria in my daughter's tank which is filterless (her fish has a stupid amount of fin and hates any filter flow) - and the cryptos started looking mushy, too. I transferred them to my filtered tank and they've recovered really well. 

The java fern grew happily in the unfiltered, though, and even put out a bunch of new leaves.

a123andpoof - you can leave the wisteria planted.. sooner or later it'll need a trim and then you leave the cuttings to float. Just thinking, it might be better than tearing up the roots and disturbing your substrate, since it's really meant to be planted anyhow.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

Aus said:


> To answer the plant question: I lost the majority of the wisteria in my daughter's tank which is filterless (her fish has a stupid amount of fin and hates any filter flow) - and the cryptos started looking mushy, too. I transferred them to my filtered tank and they've recovered really well.
> 
> The java fern grew happily in the unfiltered, though, and even put out a bunch of new leaves.
> 
> a123andpoof - you can leave the wisteria planted.. sooner or later it'll need a trim and then you leave the cuttings to float. Just thinking, it might be better than tearing up the roots and disturbing your substrate, since it's really meant to be planted anyhow.


Ooh... something for a123andpoof to ask OFL about, then. Don't want the wisteria to die D:

Yeah, I'd leave the wisteria planted, too. You can just pluck off bits of it and they'll grow separately. Stuff will fall off and grow, too.

---


a123andpoof said:


> Okay thanks. I will rearrange the moneywort and wysteria tomorrow lol I though I may have made that mistake. I will keep an eye on all the plants and watch how they are growing. How long do you think before I should add Koi?
> Also should I notice a change? Or will they just stay totally normal?


Again, I agree with Aus... leave the wisteria planted. You can pluck off a bit and let it float (like, a leaf tier).

Wait as long as it takes to make sure he will have good water quality!

A change in the levels? If you have everything at 0, then you're good to go.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Well according to my tests the only thing not a zero is my ammonia, but thats naturally in my water. I will test again today and see. 
I will then just plant the moneywort. How long does it take for them to grow roots? When I bought them they were just little stubs no roots or anything. All the plants were that way.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Aus said:


> To answer the plant question: I lost the majority of the wisteria in my daughter's tank which is filterless (her fish has a stupid amount of fin and hates any filter flow) - and the cryptos started looking mushy, too. I transferred them to my filtered tank and they've recovered really well.
> 
> The java fern grew happily in the unfiltered, though, and even put out a bunch of new leaves.
> 
> a123andpoof - you can leave the wisteria planted.. sooner or later it'll need a trim and then you leave the cuttings to float. Just thinking, it might be better than tearing up the roots and disturbing your substrate, since it's really meant to be planted anyhow.


Thanks for the heads up. If they start to look bad I will transfer them to my 10 gallon. My goal is to try and make this filterless. If I really need to I can get a few plants from walmart or possibly get to a petsmart.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Checked about an hour ago and there were no nitites and my ammonia was the same. Though I think it may have gone up just a little. I will check before work and see. 
With all the live plants I have even though it may not be NPT and without a filter what would water changes look like? I may or may not still run the filter. Still considering.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> Checked about an hour ago and there were no nitites and my ammonia was the same. Though I think it may have gone up just a little. I will check before work and see.
> With all the live plants I have even though it may not be NPT and without a filter what would water changes look like? I may or may not still run the filter. Still considering.


I think you might have enough plants. We'll, see though. It depends how well they do, as well. Water changes are different in every situation. With all of those plants, though, I don't think you'll have to do more than 2 50% a week. Maybe even 1 50% a week. You'll have to experiment with it to know for sure, though. Just do water checks.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

That would be awsome! OFL suggested running my filter for the first week to a month, and someones else said they just ran it at night. I wonder if running it only at night would work for the wisteria. 
Another concern I have is I have a heater but it is only heating to the low 70's. My plan is to use Koi's heater, but obviously I can't take that away from him. Any suggestions? Or do you think it would be safe to put Koi in if I watch the water params closely? This weekend each day their will be only around 6 hours at a time I can't watch, but I can always check stuff in evening and morning and around afternoon. I just don't want the plants to get to cold and die on me.


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## kfish (Oct 5, 2010)

a123andpoof said:


> That would be awsome! OFL suggested running my filter for the first week to a month, and someones else said they just ran it at night. I wonder if running it only at night would work for the wisteria.
> Another concern I have is I have a heater but it is only heating to the low 70's. My plan is to use Koi's heater, but obviously I can't take that away from him. Any suggestions? Or do you think it would be safe to put Koi in if I watch the water params closely? This weekend each day their will be only around 6 hours at a time I can't watch, but I can always check stuff in evening and morning and around afternoon. I just don't want the plants to get to cold and die on me.


If ammonia/nitrite are still the same tomorrow, or have gone down, go ahead and add Koi and keep watching the parameters. Definitely listen to OFL- add the filter, especially if you add Koi, so he can have a cycle if it doesn't work out. You can always remove it later.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay thanks. I will add Koi tomorrow, and start the filter tonight and see what happens. And will definatly keep an eye on parameters. Also will post pics of him in the tank and what it looks like with everything planted.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Hey I just wanted to post an update on how Koi is liking his tank! And I think you will see he is quite pleased!

When I first bought him:









A month later and up until he moved in to the 5g minus a ripped tail here and there:









Yesterday:









And the tank









The grass and the other plants I had in there died. Everything else is doing well. I am going to be planting more wisteria? I think that what it was as it grows and put it in the empty space. But yeah he couldn't happier. I don't think I have ever seen him this happy. He looks amazing and had stopped his tail biting!


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

WOW - Koi is looking wonderful! What a difference a good life can make to a little fish. His colours are really showing through now. Your tank looks wonderful, btw! I like the bridge with the plants, it looks very peaceful. 

If you want to add a different plant, you might have luck with a little anubias or java fern attached to a small piece of driftwood. Both are okay with low-tech conditions, both a bit slow to thrive compared to wisteria, but I've done well with those. I'd probably quarantine the piece though, for about two weeks. The wood may add a little tannin, but that won't hurt Koi. 

I'm glad it's going well for you, and to see your fishy looking happy and healthy!


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## teeneythebetta (Apr 29, 2012)

What a beautiful fish, and beautiful tank!

Thanks for the thread, I've learned a lot through reading these 8 pages.


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## a123andpoof (Apr 10, 2010)

Aus I would love to get some java moss, but I haven't found it yet. But am continueing to look. I am thrilled though for my first tank. Its not a NPT like I had hoped, but it still only needs small water changes each week so I am happy.

Yes he is so happy! And that makes me happy. I would like to do a few more with live plants. Maybe not as many, but just to add a few to replace all the fakes. 

And glad this thread helped you! And thanks.


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