# Quest for Tancho Koi



## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

koi betta colors are beautiful and i feel like they have a ton of room for improvement, so I got a couple pairs from aquabid and im going to try and refine a couple of patterns via inbreeding, having said that these 2 are not a related pair, im hoping i can bring the males blotch forward to where the females is but with his intensity of coloration and the purity of white on his scales (nearly flawless)
if you look at koi and how well refined they are its a loooong way off of us betta breeders im hoping to close the gap a bit


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Damn. If you suceed in stabalising it even a little I will buy a breeding pair or three! I'd love to do this, but have other lines I wanted to work first. Think its a shame with the Koi colouration there that very few are trying to refine it. Can't wait to see the results. 

Problem is export though... >.>; Still be great to watch!


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

BettaMummy87 said:


> Damn. If you suceed in stabalising it even a little I will buy a breeding pair or three! I'd love to do this, but have other lines I wanted to work first. Think its a shame with the Koi colouration there that very few are trying to refine it. Can't wait to see the results.
> 
> Problem is export though... >.>; Still be great to watch!



haha im not in thailand bud, im in california 
ill keep my log updated with any interesting updates and thats awesome id much rather sell my breeding quality pairs to people whove watched them grow from babies then theres no way you couldnt love them! 

which colors are you thinking of working on?


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm not in the States, I'm in England. Import/export between the US and UK is awful.  

Tancho appeals to me as I could see it being one of the more feasible lines to start work on. plus the white/red contrast is so striking! If I even get a pond I wouldnt mind some tancho koi in it.  Until then tancho bettas would be awesome. I will be following closely, incase our governents decide to alter the system so its a tad cheaper and easier between us.


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

aww thats too bad :/
ive contacted my local import/export department to see about getting my own licenses (hate dealing with transhippers) so you never know 
thats what I thought, many of the patterns ive seen are pretty far off and the tancho pattern just seemed like a pretty manageable place to start.

ill try and update with pics and stuff if anything interesting happens, oh and thanks for checking out my log bettamummy


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Subscribing and please put me on the waiting list if you do ever have a successful spawn.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

ozymandius said:


> aww thats too bad :/
> ive contacted my local import/export department to see about getting my own licenses (hate dealing with transhippers) so you never know
> thats what I thought, many of the patterns ive seen are pretty far off and the tancho pattern just seemed like a pretty manageable place to start.
> 
> ill try and update with pics and stuff if anything interesting happens, oh and thanks for checking out my log bettamummy


I'll be checking it regularly, you can be sure. I am trying to get mine this end too. If we both somehow manage, maybe I can source another good (unrelated) tancho pair and we can do some exchanges


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

BettaMummy87 said:


> I'll be checking it regularly, you can be sure. I am trying to get mine this end too. If we both somehow manage, maybe I can source another good (unrelated) tancho pair and we can do some exchanges


oh man, wouldnt that be neat? 2 unrelated lines being developed simultaneously would take a huge weight off of my shoulders, thay way if we ran into any losses of vigor we could just swap breeders and be right back on track! never worked on a joint breeding project either it would probably be pretty fun if you managed to find a pair. 
im going to be skulking aquabid the next couple of months and see if i can snag any exceptional tancho fish to incorporate into my program at a later date.


thanks Romad i appreciate it, for sure bud


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

Yay! Someone who lives in North Cali! I thought I was alone XD!!!

 This pair is beautiful! Update us on how everything goes. I would love to see how the fry turn out


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## aurielssong (May 26, 2014)

subscribing, this interests me


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

ozymandius said:


> oh man, wouldnt that be neat? 2 unrelated lines being developed simultaneously would take a huge weight off of my shoulders, thay way if we ran into any losses of vigor we could just swap breeders and be right back on track! never worked on a joint breeding project either it would probably be pretty fun if you managed to find a pair.
> im going to be skulking aquabid the next couple of months and see if i can snag any exceptional tancho fish to incorporate into my program at a later date.
> 
> 
> thanks Romad i appreciate it, for sure bud


Are you working on a HMPK or a TradPK line? Or are you not fixing fin shape until you have the colouration? 

The breeder I got my new OHM from has a Cohaku plakat line... I wonder if this would be a good one to try breeding the tancho from? Might take longer, though :/ 

On a slightly unrelated note, your PK boy in your avatar looks a lot like my Keiji.


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

litelboyblu said:


> Yay! Someone who lives in North Cali! I thought I was alone XD!!!
> 
> This pair is beautiful! Update us on how everything goes. I would love to see how the fry turn out



thanks for the sub ariel 

awww yeah thats hella tight! lol
im in central valley


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

BettaMummy87 said:


> Are you working on a HMPK or a TradPK line? Or are you not fixing fin shape until you have the colouration?
> 
> The breeder I got my new OHM from has a Cohaku plakat line... I wonder if this would be a good one to try breeding the tancho from? Might take longer, though :/
> 
> On a slightly unrelated note, your PK boy in your avatar looks a lot like my Keiji.



thats something i was considering yesterday, i have years of experience breeding plants and animals but to be honest I dont think I have a very good eye for form as far as fish are concerned so ill probably lock down the tancho pattern first. another thing is im pretty sure ill only be able to make the line breed true for isolated red blotches and clean white bodies and just hope to find fish with the blotch directly on top of the head (as in koi breeding) but I guess we will find out wont we? so in short color first, but I will be trying my best to keep the HMPK tail type if possible.

really? a kohaku line? the breeder was breeding specifically for kohaku? that is actually where tancho koi come from (kohaku koi lines) so yea ive got to imagine it would be a great start point haha.

pics?


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

ozymandius said:


> thats something i was considering yesterday, i have years of experience breeding plants and animals but to be honest I dont think I have a very good eye for form as far as fish are concerned so ill probably lock down the tancho pattern first. another thing is im pretty sure ill only be able to make the line breed true for isolated red blotches and clean white bodies and just hope to find fish with the blotch directly on top of the head (as in koi breeding) but I guess we will find out wont we? so in short color first, but I will be trying my best to keep the HMPK tail type if possible.
> 
> really? a kohaku line? the breeder was breeding specifically for kohaku? that is actually where tancho koi come from (kohaku koi lines) so yea ive got to imagine it would be a great start point haha.
> 
> pics?


I assume it was on purpose, as he has at least four of them from the same spawn!  He has two boys and two girls on there. Just noticed a touch of black, so hes a taisho. :/


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

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the male has sort of a weird dark iridescence around the inner part of his fins looks like butterfly pattern that maybe has red loss throughout 80% of it idk will have to test progeny to be sure, any ideas?

pretty little girl settling into her jar


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

wowo that fish has really nice pattern aside from those little tiny specks of sumi toward the tail.
and looks to have a bit of a deformity toward the base of he tail as well or is that just me?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I've been doing some research on that due to finding the same imperfections in my spawn, and the general consensus is that no one knows for sure the cause of that little tail kink. It may be due to injury as a young fry (most commonly from being sucked up the siphon), or a deficiency rather than a genetic issue.

The breeders that I have spoken to who have had that issue in their spawns recommend either a B or a C supplement in the aquarium, and start adding it as soon as you start adding water. Both people have told me that they stopped seeing that issue when they started adding the supplement, which makes me think there is some sort of deficiency at work.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Annnnd a quick look at the ol' Internet gave me a gold-mine article:

http://en.wikivet.net/Vitamin_C_Deficiency_-_Fish


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

You know what, looking from the phone I asumed it was ut how he was swimming at the time. That or the huge spiderweb cracking that covers most of my creen artm XD. Everything looks so different on the computer. Can see it here. Shame as my male is stunning that I got from him.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about it terribly much. But, you may wish to invest in a vitamin C supplement...apparently it's often marketed for "marine," but is also good for fresh water tanks.


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

i liked that article hrutan, it got me thinking. you lose a large percentage of koi fry to culling out deformities like a bent tail so its probably genetic rather than environmental (genotype vs. phenotype) maybe its a gene that allows the fish to grow without additional vitamin c supplementation sans the deformities or something idk but if the male has it i wouldnt use him to breed could lead to a higher instance of deformities in the next spawn


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

Hahaha indeed they do. I am stalking my breeders for likable fish. If it wasnt for the cost/risk involved in it, I would try breeding the male with suppliments, to see if it was genetic or enviromental. 

I really, really do love that male. o.o Such a beautifully opaque boy, and the density of the red..... 

I need to find a good male. May ask that breeder for a video from above to see if it is a deformity (or how bad it is!).


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

thanks so much bettamummy! I really appreciate the comments.
which breedeer is that?
im talking to a breeder now about how much it would be to have him breed, raise and grow out a spawn for me to make selections from since they are so much more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject I figure it'd be a huge advantage for me, but those are giants not tancho.


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

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got a nice sized nest going now, hes really excited about having a girl around.


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## BettaMummy87 (Jul 26, 2014)

ozymandius said:


> thanks so much bettamummy! I really appreciate the comments.
> which breedeer is that?
> im talking to a breeder now about how much it would be to have him breed, raise and grow out a spawn for me to make selections from since they are so much more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject I figure it'd be a huge advantage for me, but those are giants not tancho.



King Betta Farm Thailand. I got my OHM male from him and hes lovely. Well settled. King has just opened his shop, so may be he is slightly newer, but his fish are lovely on the whole. I stalk his FB for pretties!


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

BettaMummy87 said:


> King Betta Farm Thailand. I got my OHM male from him and hes lovely. Well settled. King has just opened his shop, so may be he is slightly newer, but his fish are lovely on the whole. I stalk his FB for pretties!


ill have to check him out 

released into the main tub last night so now we wait probably be about 2-3 days depending on how receptive she is.

the stress of shipping, moving around and breeding seems to be bringing out the black in the outer parts of there fins leading me further to beleive red loss is responsible for the blotches of color.I read something on red loss increasing black in areas absent of red on white bodied fish just cant remember where to find the link >=/


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## trih (Dec 5, 2014)

Truly amazed, top view those bettas look exactly like koi's. Subscribed!


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

didnt go very well, male seems to be very inexperienced and female just isnt in the mood both fish have also come down with ich so ive individually jarred them and will be calling an end to this log, maybe try again in a few weeks but ive got a major ich outbreak and 2 failed spawnings out of 3 so ill be busy for at least a couple weeks


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Good luck in the future, Oz.


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## ozymandius (Dec 16, 2014)

Nimble said:


> Good luck in the future, Oz.


thanks for the good vibes bruthah nimble, much appreciated


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

Awwww.......  Sorry to hear. 

Better luck next time.


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## BlueInkFish (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm sorry. I hope you have better luck in the future!


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## trih (Dec 5, 2014)

Sorry to hear, Good luck on the next spawn!


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## cousiniguana (Apr 3, 2014)

Next time will surely be successful.


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