# male aggression



## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

When I put the male and female together all he'll do is chase and attack her. I watched her come up to him in a submissive posture and he still chased her off... is this normal? I only let them at go at it for around 5 hours because he was taking chunks out of her fins and I was worried.

She also looked like she was getting pretty stressed...but as soon as I put the divider back in the tank she colored back up (complete with breeding stripes) and started trying to get to him again.

Got a good amount of fake plants for her to hide in. The male doesn't seem all that interested in building a bubble nest, so maybe he just isn't interested in breeding?

I've been feeding a variety of freeze dried and pellet foods 3x daily.

I have them in a divided 5 gallon tank at 80 F. 
Ammonia: ~.5 (I need to do a water change).
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Total Hardness: 300
Chlorine: 0
Alkalinity: 180
pH: ~8


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

Sounds like your female is feelin' it but your male may or may not be. How long have they been conditioned? Freeze dried foods may not be the best because aside from causing swim bladder issues in some fish, the freeze drying process removes a lot of nutrients from the food. You want stuff that is high in protein. Live or frozen food is usually best, followed by pellet. I'm not sure I'd bother much with the freeze dried stuff, especially for conditioning.

Some males are very aggressive and what you describe isn't all that abnormal. Some males will also spawn without a bubble nest and build one as the spawn continues. Do you have any materials to make it easier for him to construct his bubble nest, like a piece of bubble wrap or a ziploc bag? If he has something at the surface, he will be more successful with nesting.

As you mentioned, you really need to do a water change. Water conditions should be pristine when breeding. .5 ppm ammonia is not acceptable, especially given how long you will not be able to disturb the water in the breeding tank with the dad tending his nest. It will be nearly a week before the fry are free swimming and if you disturb the tank before then, you run the risk of dad eating the eggs.

Also, you mentioned you are breeding in a divided tank. Care to elaborate? What is the tank mate in the divided tank? Usually people set up a 5 or 10 gallon filled with about 5" of water.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

watch breeding/courtship videos. Notice how both male and female flirt swim - aggressively swimming in an "S" fashion. If your pair does that, you only need to use more hideouts for the female. 

You can also keep a divider (or jar) for 2-3 days before releasing the female. By then the male shouldn't be that aggressive and they should spawn soon. . . . . note: average courtship period for first time breeders is 3 days. But some may take longer.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

Sorry I should have been more specific... The pair are in a divided tank and I took out the divider when it seemed like they were ready to spawn so that they would have the full 5 gallons and put the divider back when it looked like the male was just beating her up. 
They've been in there for about 10 days now. I tried once a week ago after a few days of conditioning, waited for her fins to heal and tried again yesterday.
The two of them are the only ones in the tank and if the spawn is successful I have a two gallon that I'm going to put the female in. 

I've tried giving him bubble wrap; the first time he seemed to really like it and started building a nest under it when I let the female loose, but this time he completely ignored it. 

I will definitely do a water change and try some frozen foods before I try again.

I also have a bit of an algae issue (at least I assume it's algae; it's white and poofy but when I go to clean it up it's more mucus like...I'm assuming it was caused because I used a different dechlorinator when I set up this tank than I usually use (one with algae based anti stress stuff in it)) on the male's favorite decoration (a floating log). I keep cleaning it off and it keeps coming back. Could that be keeping him from being in the mood? I hate to take it out since he likes it so much...Is there a way to get rid of the algae? It's just on the one decoration...

If it does look like they are courting rather than fighting how beat up do you let the female get before calling it quits if the male is being really aggressive?

And other than ammonia do my water parameters look good? I know my water's really hard, could that be a problem?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Separate and isolate them from other bettas until both show flirt swimming. Don't forget to feed nutritious food and exercised (flare) daily for about 5-15 minutes. They should eventually go into breeding mode.
If the male still doesn't want to breed after a week, try flaring him longer - 30-60 minutes (not to the mother to be). Use another male or a mirror.

How much damage can be tolerated depends on the breeder. But as a general guide, if the female is resting motionless (for more than 30 minutes) either on the surface or floor and looks torn up . . . it's time to cancel and start over.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

Should I let them see each other at all during the conditioning?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I let mine see and flirt the whole time, with success...but that's a sample size of 1, lol.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

But it's best to have them in different tanks? Or do you think it will work if I keep them in the divided tank they're in?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Mine are in a divided tank. Others have said to separate them so the male doesn't get used to the female's pheromones. In my single breeding, that wasn't a problem. However, I do not know whether that is an anomaly or not. The whole process went quite smoothly.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

hmm well since I have limited space I think first I'll try some frozen food and more plants and if that doesn't work then I'll try different tanks... stubborn fishy; he's lucky I like his chocolate coloring so much lol.

Thanks for all the advice!!


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

oh...I did have one other question... they live on my desk at work so they don't get fed the two days of the week i'm off. Does that mess up conditioning? I could have a co-worker feed them if need be.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd have a coworker feed them, personally, or take them home so that you can give them the attention that they need. The "conditioning" process is no more than getting them in tip-top shape, with a good fat layer and stores of strength to make it through the process. If they aren't being fed at least twice a day, every day, with high quality foods, you're decreasing your chances of a successful breeding.

Remember, mom needs extra nutrition to produce lots of eggs, and she needs strength to get through the process and heal afterwards. And when dad's caring for the eggs, he's not going to eat. Which means he'll need a lot of strength to carry through to the end. You don't want him to be so hungry, that the eggs look delicious.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

Put in some more fake plants and started frozen food today. They're loving the changes


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Sounds good!


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

so...I've had them in together for 4 days and not only have they not spawned but they seem to be totally ignoring each other now... Should I just give up and try a different pair?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

There are a few tricks you can try, first. If you have other fish, you can try showing the male another male to get his blood up. Check the temperature - you can lower it by two degrees for a couple of days, and then raise it back up to 80. You can "card" them, or take the female out and return her in a day, see if absence makes the heart grow fonder.

...at the end of the day, though, if all else fails, you may need to try a different pair. Sometimes they just don't like each other.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Personally, I wouldn't attempt spawning at your workplace, just because of the intensive nature of breeding Bettas, that you might not be able to keep an eye on them if you're not there, and when it comes to taking care of the fry.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

I know it's not ideal but my husband doesn't want them at home and I really wanted to try it... (and sadly I have more room at work than at home).


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

Be prepared to be there 7 days a week for many hours. Fry need to be fed small meals several times a day. Their stomachs are not big.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Indeed. For some reason, I thought you were only _conditioning _them at work. You'll be in and out of work every single day, and spending a bunch of time cleaning the tank. They can't skip meals.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Kevin's comment is exactly what I mean. You need to be there at least twice a day, every day, for almost three months, if not more. Not to mention the space requirements for housing all of the fry. You mentioned having limited space at work, which means you won't have enough space to house a properly-sized grow-out tank for them. Not to mention that I'm fairly certain that your employer would not be pleased to see that your desk is covered in an additional, much larger fish tank, or two if it's a large spawn.

As painful as it is to hear, you should not attempt to spawn your Bettas at work. You will get your hopes up, and when you're unable to keep up with the necessary maintenance, you will be heartbroken and it will be your own fault. I urge STRONGLY against it.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

I'm at work pretty much every day anyway... I work at the university I go to; so it won't be a huge change to be there a little more often.
I don't know why my husband is so against having them at home...


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

If I culled the spawn to keep it fairly small I figured a 5 gallon would be big enough for a grow out tank (provided I keep up on cleaning it). Would I need one a lot bigger than that?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

10 gallon minimum. Unless you plan to cull the spawn down to like 5 fry.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

A five gallon tank is absolutely tiny as a grow-out, particularly with splendens who can be very aggressive from a young age.

Also what happens when they need to be jarred? 

Personally I would hold off breeding if this is the only way you can do it. Culling healthy fry also isn't an easy thing to do. These are fry who are really only being killed so you can fit them into a 5 gallon tank. Unless you are a large-scale breeder or someone who is ruthless about quality (such as producing top show fish), I don't really agree with that kind of 'convenience' culling.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Just don't do it. It's just not going to be worth the investment of time, energy, or your emotions. I know it seems like good fun, and you see all of these people on this site putting up Spawn Logs of their own work... but you are not ready, and don't have the necessary equipment or space to work it.

We've given you our opinions and advice, whether you choose to follow it is up to you.


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

I'm going to ask the question no one else has asked so far- are you sure your employer is cool with this? This will cost a decent amount of money in energy cost, as well as water usage. There is also the responsibility of housing your live food colonies. And how much actual work will you be doing if you're tending to your fish for an hour or two a day?

I'm not gonna say don't do it... but realistically, I think this is going to be a bit more challenging than you think it will be.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

I have at least an hour or two every day that I have nothing to do at work which is why I got the fish in the first place... I'm salary so I have to be there my whole shift even if all i'm doing is playing on facebook and it was driving me crazy.

With how I had been planning things I don't think they'd care...but if I need to use a 10 or 20 gallon tank yeah they would care. I don't think I dare try putting anything bigger than 5 or 6 gallons on my desk. (for weight reasons, water near electronics reasons and because smaller tanks take smaller wattage heaters which means less energy usage.)

Since these two didn't spawn I'll spend some more time working out details (and trying to convince my husband to let me do this at home) before I try my other pair.

My other pair are only 4 months right now so I've got awhile before they're too old to try breeding.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes, you have time. And remember that even if you don't get to breed _these _fish, you, yourself, have an entire lifetime ahead of you. It's frustrating to not get to do things right when you want to, but being able to plan everything out makes the experience so much better in the future.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

I know...I just got so excited about trying it. Enthusiasm unfortunately does not always equal good idea.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

My parents said I could do it at their house so I'm going to work on getting a good set up and then move one of my pair there and try breeding. (They've been complaining that I don't come over enough anyway and I only live 2 miles from them.)


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Be prepared to be at your parents house twice a day, every single day for the next several weeks. I wouldn't trust my parents to take care of a growing spawn of baby fry, and neither should you. Not that your parents aren't capable... it's just better to handle things yourself if you can.


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## Kittona (Sep 26, 2014)

Oh, don't worry I don't trust them to take care of them. Promising I'd be there twice a day is what got them to agree to it lol. I see them like once a week and they complain that I never come over...


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