# 1st time breeder questions



## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Hi everyone! My plan is to start breeding in April.I have done loads of research on this forum but still have some questions. Here are some:
1.how do you cull?
2.are mason jars those jars that you can buy at the grocery store in packs of 24?
3. My petstore does not sell live plants. Are silk okay for both the spawn and grow out tank?
4. Where do you find cultures and bbs eggs?
That's all for now. If anyone else has any questions,you can post them here.


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## iJessie (Feb 24, 2013)

Your pet store might sell bbs eggs  of not eBay works to.


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## iJessie (Feb 24, 2013)

Or not *


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## mursey (May 9, 2012)

I have a question.

Besides money, what is the top reason people start breeding? It seems complicated to breed something very nice . . . from what I have read breeding "just for fun" is considered irresponsible? True or False? And why do you breed?


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## GoodMorning (Jan 19, 2013)

^Some people want to keep the blood line/genetics.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

1.) There are many ways to cull. You can feed to a carnivorous animal or fish. You can use clove oil. You can freeze in ice cold water. You can hit on the head with a hammer, though that would take FOREVER for each and every one.

2.) Mason jars are those ones that stores sell in 24 packs. You need to make sure that you get the right size, though. They need to be large enough for a fish to comfortably swim around. Usually one quart is the easiest to find, but if you can find something bigger then that would be even better.

3.) You can use fake plants for spawning and grow out. Most will leave grow out bare though, if live plants are not available. Live plants have many benefits including fry's first food: infusoria. For the spawning tank, you will want to make sure that there are plenty of hiding spots for your girl, since there will be much chasing/nipping involved.

4.) I have not been able to find the cultures that I want at my LPS, but I found bbs there. Ebay is a great place to go, but there is also the classified section on this forum. Many members sell their left over eggs, cultures, and plants to other members.


I want to breed, because I'm simply interested in the whole process. I enjoy genetics, animals, and feeling accomplished (who doesn't?). I really want to make color combinations and lines that are not only interesting to me, but also other people. I eventually want to show my work, but not until I have something that really makes me go: WOW.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Breeding "just for fun" can mean two different things. Clearly my breeding isn't going to be my main source of income. However, I'm not just taking a male and female and throwing them in a tank just to see how things work. THAT is irresponsible.


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## CheeBetta (Jan 23, 2013)

if i leave my male in the tank with the fry and he is kept well fed, will he just keep continuing his role as care giver?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

It depends on father. If you're a first time breeder, it's suggested to take the male out once they are free swimming. Usually a male who is well fed will ignore any want to eat his fry. Buuuut. Some males are "bad" fathers and will eat the eggs instead of simply transporting them around the nest. Then it is suggested to take them out as well. It's usually not a good idea to let adults and fry stay in the same tank after too long, but some breeders have written about successfully doing it. Given that they are more on the expert side than you or I.


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## mursey (May 9, 2012)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> Breeding "just for fun" can mean to different things. Clearly my breeding isn't going to be my main source of income. However, I'm not just taking a male and female and throwing them in a tank just to see how things work. THAT is irresponsible.



I hear you. I would have the same instincts, I would love to gather bettas I think are beautiful and breed them, that's why I ask. But I read a bunch of articles today that sort of made me rethink it, thinking it's really complicated. That just made me curious about everyone else. 

I'm an animal lover and designer and I like science too .. so it just seems very interesting to me. But for me I think I'll just stick to having bettas as pets. . maybe I can breed some of those red and white "koi" looking platies one day instead  I don't think I'd have room for a bazillion jars of bettas 

Good luck to you and it would be interesting to chronicle your ups and downs of this venture


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Yea...it's expensive... I think I'm in debt now. LOL. Not really, but it is expensive. I think the worst part is when things don't turn out how you expect, so you have to drop even more money on it.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

This is not a money making hobby. It will take a couple years to get close to breaking even with what you put out on a regular basis to breed them. Not to mention the jump in electric/water bills.

Don't go into this thinking you will be making money.. Expect to spend a lot of money, take up a lot of space and spend hours a day doing water changes/feedings.

This isn't an easy hobby..

As for your questions - 

Culling can be done in different ways - can use clove oil, a larger predatory fish, cutting heads, etc.. expect to cull from very tiny fry to larger, almost adult sized fish. Not easy either way you do it.

Mason jars are fine - make sure they are at least 32oz as the minimum as you are wanting them to grow. Find a way to make sure you heat each one - most have a fish room that they heat up apart from the house to 85F+. So make sure to research different techniques on how to heat each one of those jars appropriately. 

Live plants are better as they help keep the water cleaner, and provide food for the first day or two. But they aren't "needed".. I would look into purchasing some online because they are good to have. Otherwise, you can just use silk plants without any trouble.

BBS you will usually find easier online - San Francisco Bay online store sells them, IBC sells them in their shop, etc.. there are other places. You will want to get the higher quality, better grade.. they tend to have higher hatch rates.. it can get expensive though, I think I spent $85 on my can... but it can last a long time if kept in the fridge.

Cultures you will most likely have to find a breeder who has some for sale and purchase them from the breeder and have them shipped. Do some research on how to care for them so you know what you are prepared for.

Don't forget the IAL - makes a big difference in the health of the eggs/fry and in breeding the fish.. especially if you don't use live plants, IAL will be very good to have. That you will have to order online as well.. order it early, as sometimes customs can hold it and can take a few weeks to arrive. It's beneficial, as eggs can easily become enveloped in fungus and IAL will help prevent it.


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Okay, thank you every one! I just have another question. Do you need to have a lid on the spawning / grow out tank? I'm pretty sure that you do, just making sure.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes.. one for light (so they get used to it), also can use seran wrap (but can get bothersome/expensive) so I use glass canopies. They start to develop their labyrinth organ roughly at the 7wk mark and the humidity caused by the high temp + tight fitting cover will help keep the labyrinth organs healthy.

Also they help to avoid drafts... a cool draft from a fan could cause them trouble.

Don't forget adjustable heaters that can heat the tanks easily to about 84F - will need larger watts for the grow out tanks, smaller for the breeding tanks, but still able to heat warm enough.


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, could someone put together a must have list for spawning / fry? It will for sure help me, and other people who need an idea.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Try this, it's in the sticky directory.
Breeding Bettas - Considerations and supplies


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks! I'll look at it know!


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## jibruno (Dec 26, 2011)

Try going on AQUABID.com they have live plants, cultures of every live food and its a great place to buy a pair of bettas.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Also, Lone Star Bettas and Basement Bettas are both groups that have amazing american sellers.


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm getting my pair from logistics guy! Thanks for the suggestions though!


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

royal said:


> I'm getting my pair from logistics guy! Thanks for the suggestions though!


awesome!!!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I'd make a list.. I have a good one I built when I was getting everything ready.. but it seems like you are always buying one thing or another even after you think you have everything -.- lol


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Exactly how i feel! Lol


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## jibruno (Dec 26, 2011)

If you have any questions feel free to ask. There are a ton of skilled breeders here. i am still learning, failed attempts (if you have any) should not discourage you. every failed attempt i had made my next spawn even better and i continue to learn. There is a lot of knowledge and experienc on this site, tap into it.


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

i put sid and nancy together in the spawn tank about an hour and a half ago, and they're definitely interested in each other (flirting, chasing, etc) he did a "practice wrap" as soon as she was in the water (just assumed the wrap pose, shook a few times then stopped) but he seems totally unwilling to build a nest. what can i do to encourage him? should their light be off?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

homegrown terror said:


> i put sid and nancy together in the spawn tank about an hour and a half ago, and they're definitely interested in each other (flirting, chasing, etc) he did a "practice wrap" as soon as she was in the water (just assumed the wrap pose, shook a few times then stopped) but he seems totally unwilling to build a nest. what can i do to encourage him? should their light be off?


This may seem like a stupid question, but you conditioned, right?


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Question: if i get a ten gallon spawning tank, and a 20 gallon grow out tank and some mason jars (like 100) i should ideally have enough tank space right?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

royal said:


> Question: if i get a ten gallon spawning tank, and a 20 gallon grow out tank and some mason jars (like 100) i should ideally have enough tank space right?


I thought this was okay as well, but apparently not. I was told that another 20 gallon should suffice, though.


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

What do you mean? A 20 gallon spawn tank?!


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

no another 20 gallon grow out haha

While 20 gallon is the minimum, a lot of breeders on here kept recommending me to get another one because of the fry count. they said 40 gallons is more reasonable since there will be so many fry.


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Oh. Really?!


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Jk i know you're being serious


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

royal said:


> Oh. Really?!


yea, sorry I just edited my last post. I'm just using a 22.5 gallon plastic tub for my other one. I didn't have another glass tank in the budget. Though I'm not sure was to what I should use for a hood, though.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

royal said:


> Jk i know you're being serious


Lol you're fine. it made me laugh. :3


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

That actually makes lots of sense imo. Maybe surran wrap?


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> This may seem like a stupid question, but you conditioned, right?


for the last two and a half weeks, yeah.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Yea, but I feel like saran wrap would be a lot of work. I'd have to keep reapplying it every time. Such a pain! I'm going to look into glass covers. I'm about to go to the pet store with my grandma to buy a new tank for her betta that's coming in the mail (she's actually excited! YAY!). I'll get measurements and post about it when I get back.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Some males don't like to build nests. I've read about transferring an already built nest from another male's tank to the breeding tank to see if he'd use that. I've also read about using cups to have a place to put the nest under (or floating leaves, though leaves sometimes sink). I've also read that some people just let eggs sit and hope for the best, though I'm not so sure how much that would help.


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> Some males don't like to build nests. I've read about transferring an already built nest from another male's tank to the breeding tank to see if he'd use that. I've also read about using cups to have a place to put the nest under (or floating leaves, though leaves sometimes sink). I've also read that some people just let eggs sit and hope for the best, though I'm not so sure how much that would help.


i've got two betta-cup lids, a stem of pothos and a betta cup cut in half floating in the tank to give him plenty of options for nest building. i already tried to transfer a bit of bubblenest from Leonidas's tank to see if he's pick up the work from there, but he's ignored it as well.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> yea, sorry I just edited my last post. I'm just using a 22.5 gallon plastic tub for my other one. I didn't have another glass tank in the budget. Though I'm not sure was to what I should use for a hood, though.


The big box hardware stores sell plexiglass sheets. You can duct-tape one edge to the container. I you have a drill, dremel, etc. you can easily drill air holes.
Otherwise, you can take the regular top for the tub & cut a lage rectangle in the center. A small hardware store will custom-cut a piece of hardware cloth (metal mesh sceening) that you can tape over the hole, or you can use a sheet of plastic canvas (found in the embroidery sections of craft/fabric stores).
The idea of using those rubbermade tubs is a game-changer for me! I want to breed my bettas, but I can't justify a 40-gal grow-out tank- I have no room for one, and it would be heavy and a pain to clean/change, etc. On the other hand, rubbermade tubs are cheap, light, stackable, and fairly unbreakable. Plus, I already have about a dozen of them!


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Glad this thread helped!


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

homegrown terror said:


> i've got two betta-cup lids, a stem of pothos and a betta cup cut in half floating in the tank to give him plenty of options for nest building. i already tried to transfer a bit of bubblenest from Leonidas's tank to see if he's pick up the work from there, but he's ignored it as well.


It's really hard to force a male to tend to his eggs. You can give him more time with the eggs, or just take him out. It's really just up to you. There isn't really much you can do in terms of getting him to build a nest at this point (from what I've read).


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Alright. So my tub was a little odd. It was 34" long. PetSmart sells tank lights to fit either 30" or 48", and then they have adjustable sliders to make them smaller. Sooo I got the 48" one and 'made it smaller'. Then my grandpa saw that we had some of those extra plexiglass things that go infront of fluorescent lights in ceilings. So he cut that to size and drilled holes in it (I'm not any good with a drill or saw or anything like that). Also, we unbent wire clothes hangers for support. It looks REALLY homely and make shift. Oh well. It works!


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> It's really hard to force a male to tend to his eggs. You can give him more time with the eggs, or just take him out. It's really just up to you. There isn't really much you can do in terms of getting him to build a nest at this point (from what I've read).


well i turned off the tank light and we left him alone for a little while, he's now got a monstrous nest that he's flitting back and forth between constructing and chasing/flirting with Nancy.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

homegrown terror said:


> well i turned off the tank light and we left him alone for a little while, he's now got a monstrous nest that he's flitting back and forth between constructing and chasing/flirting with Nancy.


awesome!


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## jibruno (Dec 26, 2011)

i use a 10 gal spawn tank and a 20 gal growout. i use a lot of medium sized plastic containers to keep my fry in when they grow bigger. and a couple dozen small tanks. this has worked for me in the past.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Walmart is great for cheap little heaters for the bins.
It makes so much more sense to have plastic bins! You can buy the size to fit the spaces in your home. I could easily fit several 20-gal plastic containers around my apartment, but I have NO IDEA what I'd do with one 40-gallon! (I could and may, surrender my kitchen table.. who has money to eat after spending $$$ on this hobby!
I love the plexi grid solution!
I have heard of breeders forgoing heaters and raising fry OUTDOORS in temps at 55 degrees! Yikes.
I wonder- could you raise fry outdoors in 40 degree weather with a heater?
I want to try this in summer here in the Northeast. The breeding I'm planning now is "getting my feet wet". I can work on a larger scale in June-July-August, b/c of steady temps 70-80+ degrees (plus lots of rainwater & live bugs).


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

How do the fry even survive 55*F weather!? 

idk I just used whatever was laying around. That tank light wasn't exactly cheap. xD


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I can't remember who wrote that article, but the author said if they are acclimated to the temp, they become used to it. I don't knoe what to think, but some cull candidates may be good test subjects :0(
Clamp-on work lights are cheap cheap cheap (like $2!) All you need is a CFL bulb & clamp it on the side.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Nice set up, but one thing to be warned about - the metal wire hanger? Will rust very quickly as you will have warm water rising up (you want the humidity) and it will rust on the wires.. which then will drip into the tub and cause harm/death. 

You can use wood or anything plastic that is long like that to hold it up.. but metal, not a good idea.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

+1 to the metal. I was stupid and thought having metal clips above my tanks to hold in a piece of plastic was a great idea. It just rusted, fell apart and stained my tanks with horrible, ugly rust coating that doesn't come off.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Ugh. I didn't even think about that. Well at least I haven't used any of it yet. I'll get something else.


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

Our bettas are breeding as I type this... The female is eating a lot of the eggs as they drop. The male isn't picking them up very quickly, and they are scattered on the bottom. I keep shooing her away with a net because I don't know what else to do and I can't just let her devour our spawn. This is our first attempt at breeding and my fiancee is at work for several more hours. (This is homegrown terror's fiancee Crystal writing this.) I am wondering if any of you can help me out and let me know a couple of things. 

How long will they actually be breeding for? What is a normal amount of time for it to take for her to release all of her eggs so I can take her out? Since she is eating so many of the eggs I can't leave them alone because I have to keep her away from them! I've been sitting here for about half an hour so far, and there were already a decent amount of eggs around when I noticed they had finally started.

Can someone please help me out ASAP????


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## jibruno (Dec 26, 2011)

They will breed untill they are done, simple. it depends on how many eggs the femalle has. it could take hours for them to finish, i had one spawn last for 3 hours. when the bettas are stressed or think there is danger it will cause them to eat the eggs, make sure there is no vibration or anything like that going on in the tank. also they might just bee young and not very experienced and it may take a few spawns for them to catch on. sadly some bettas never catch on and just arent fit to be good parents.

i wish you luck, the first spawn i tried, the same thing happened, the second one went better


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

after speaking with my grandpa, the wire hanger will work fine. The wire is actually coated in vinyl, so it won't rust like you're thinking it will. Huzaah!


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

That's good.to hear! Huzaah!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Homegrown - they will eat their eggs if they aren't fertilized properly.. sometimes they wrap and eggs will drop, but if they aren't aligned just right, then the eggs won't be any good. You may just be seeing them eat the unfertilized eggs.

On a small chance, it could be because it's their first time and unsure what to do, but instinct should of kicked in. If you disrupt them too much, any that they do get fertilized they won't care for as they will feel their nest is threatened. Best to just let them do what they need to do and see what they have at the end. My last spawn there were a lot of eggs all over the ground, but still ended up with a couple hundred fry. They take hours to spawn, it's an off and on process.. so don't know what will come of it until the very end.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

This is really exciting!!!! I'm going to start my attempts at a spawn Wednesday!
My goal is to create some yellow bettas. I suppose it's rare color for a reason, though.
I have my sorority tank 12" from the potential Dad's tank. He spends a lot of time looking at thos 9 pretty girls!!! Luckily, his mate is looking back! I let them meet for a few hours a week ago. It was his 1st day in his tank (he was in a QT tank before; I've only had him 2 weeks), so I couldn't resist. They both postured and chased; no fighting. I've been feeding both he & the girls live blackworms for dinner for a week-yummy!!!
How long do you leave the pair in the spawning tank if there's no "action"?


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Did you float her, and let him show off and build the nest?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Ugh, I've had bad experiences with yellow lol.. I have a female now in time out (for good) as she is waaaay too aggressive. Such a pretty innocent looking yellow too. 
I wish you luck on the yellows!

I've left pairs in the tank for 1-2 weeks before with no issues.. but generally after a few days with nothing you can pull them and seclude them for a couple days to "rest" them and try again. Virgins sometimes will take a bit longer, sometimes a week or so. Just don't disturb them if possible.. the more they see you and you do things to the tank, the longer it may take.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

What was the trouble with yellows?


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## jibruno (Dec 26, 2011)

I had a red female once that i had problems with because she kept kicking my males butt. eventually she gave me a really good spawn, so it was worth the stress i guess. HAHA


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I was really excited that my marble girl has sass, but now I'm worried. xD


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## jibruno (Dec 26, 2011)

sas can be good, will save her life if your male is too agressive, but in some cases the female can kill the male, and of course cases of the male killing female. its always different. i watch my pair like a hawk


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## royal (Jan 23, 2013)

Wow, I hope my pair isn't too violent!


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

Sid, our male, just ate every damn egg out of the nest. how long should we wait before trying to spawn them again? and do you think next time we should take him out of the spawn tank and just keep the eggs nested with a pipette?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm so sorry!
Someone created a post to ask if the male should be allowed to cull the fry. Sounds like Sid read the post & proved they can be trusted to cull.
Keeping the eggs nested w/a pipette sounds like torture! Would it be a 24/7 job, or could you check & re-nest a few times a day?
Do fallen eggs hatch? Why would a "good" egg fall?


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