# Sticky  How to: Natural Planted tank



## Oldfishlady

*Natural Planted tank:* Soil based with lots and lots of stem and floating plants. Common snails and shrimp complete the little ecosystem-everything has a job.

Plants functions as the filtration-All livestock and anything organic function as the ferts-When the organics start to break down and decomp-they naturally produce CO2 that the plants need. Shrimp also shred dead/dieing organics/plant matter so that it will break down faster and eat some algae. Snails-eat organics and dead/dieing plant matter and some algae.

Soil based tanks are as close to a complete ecosystem you can create in a closed system/aquarium. Everything works together to create the Balance.

It can take about 3 months for a soil based tank to mature. Once the soil has started its life under water, is alive and full of critters/microorganisms. I like to remove my filter or water movement in my 10gal and under tanks. I do use water movement in my 20gal and larger.

*Nitrogen cycle*-in properly setup soil based tank with lots of plants you don't need to worry about the nitrogen cycle or do anything special-It happens on its own. The silent cycle. 
Often with heavy planted tanks-it will take a long time if ever to see the nitrate reading we normally look for that tells us cycling stage/completeness-But the nitrogen cycle is happening-its silent.

If you properly setup the soil based tank-you can safely add all your livestock on the same day you set it up.

Once mature-water changes are limited and this can vary from once a month to 4-5 times a year. If you want that really clean tank floor with an organized look-the soil based may not be for you.
Over cleaning-water changes and vacuum can upset the balance, however, your water should always look crystal clear-this tells you that you have good balance and the plants, microorganism, shrimp, snails and fish are doing their job.

*Dirt*-Look for organic type potting soil, top soil or use dirt from your yard. You don't want any added ferts, chemicals...etc.....
Sift the soil or pick through it to remove any large pieces of organics and wood.
In 1-10gal tanks use 1-1.5 inches of dirt
In 20-55gal tanks use-1.5-2 inches of dirt
In over 55gal-use 2-3 inches of dirt

*Cap*-use either-pool filter sand, play sand or small diameter gravel.
The cap is to help hold the soil in place and you only want to use half as much cap as you do soil.

*Hard scape*-If using large based items-like big rocks or driftwood-along with more than 1 inch of dirt. Place the hard scape item on top of the first 1 inch of dirt-then add the rest of the dirt and cap.

**Hint:* Place the filter and heater in the tank before you place hard scape items. This will help you with proper placement and then place the hood if you are using one to check that everything will fit properly-You want the overflow of the filter to be directed over a hard scape item so it doesn't cause a kick up. Check the intake to insure that it isn't too low to the dirt/cap line-you may need to shorten the intake or place a flat rock under it so it doesn't suck up the soil/cap and ruin the filter.

*Lights*-proper lighting is really important-without the proper color temp bulb the plants can't see the light to use it for photosynthesis. Without good plant growth the soil based tank will crash.
You want-_"Daylight" 6500k bulbs-watts will vary based on length of bulb_.
You want to _change both the bulb and the starter every 12 months_-even if they still work since florescent bulb intensity can be lost over time.
The _partition between the light and plants_-need to either be removed all together or ensure it is kept clean for best light penetration to plants.
_Photoperiod_-keep the lights on 10-12 hours. Plants naturally are on 10h/day PP with 1 hour before and after of less intense light.
***Too short a PP or wrong color temp bulb, old bulbs can trick the plants into thinking its a season change and time to go dormant, die or flower. 
Poor plant growth can result in poor water quality. You should need to make your first plant trim in 7-10 days after planting.

*Algae:* Its normal, expected and a sign of a healthy system, however, since this is a closed system-even the good algae needs to be manually removed on occasion. With soil based systems that have proper balance you shouldn't have algae issue-you will have some-but as long as you have enough of the right species of thriving plants-they should out compete problem algae.

*Plants:* If you can't start a soil based tank with enough of the right species of plants-DON'T set one up...It is important to have enough of the right species of plants on hand, correct lights from the start-otherwise the system might crash.
You want to start with lots of fast growing stem plants and some floating plants. You can add the moss, ferns, anubias to your hard scape items and add some rosette plants too.
Plants I like to use:
*Stem plants:*
Najas indica (naja grass)
Cabomba caroliniana(green)
C. piauhyensis (red)
Hygrophila dfformis (westeria)
H. corymbosa (giant hygro)
H, siamensis (thin leaf)
Ludwigia natans
Rotala indica
*Rosette plants:*
Vallisneria americana-var Biwanesis
V. spiralis
Sagittaria subulata
S. platyphylla
Cryptocryne walkeri
Crypt-bronze
C. wendtii
Echinodorus bleheri (amazon sword)
E. ozelot
E. tenellus (chain sword)
*Other:*
Nymphaes stellata (red lily)
Aponogeton ulvaceus
Microsorium pteropus (java fern)
Vesicularia dubyana (java moss)
*Floating plants:*
Pistia stratiotes (water lettuce)
Limnobium laevigatum (frogbit)
Lemna minor (duckweed)

Once the hard scape items and fully planted-make water only changes until the water is clear-Turn on the filter and heater-Once at temp-add the livestock after proper acclimation.
If you don't have trumpet snails that burrow to add-be sure and poke the soil a couple of times a week with either chopstick, wooden spoon...etc.....This will help prevent anaerobic soil. Once you make your first trim, plants are thriving-the roots of the stem plants will help prevent anaerobic soil by pulling oxygen into the soil layer.

You will need to make 1-3 times a week 25-50% water only changes for the first 1-2 weeks-Then decrease as you see plants growing/thriving to 1-2 25-50% a week. By the 3 month stage and provided plants are thriving and you have had to make at least 4-5 trims on the stem plants-Reduce water changes to monthly 50% and remove the filter if you want. As the tank matures-plants thriving you can use your judgment on water changes and reduce them further.

I don't use any added ferts or inject CO2-neither are needed in soil based balanced systems-They make everything they need if allowed, however, adding an extra pinch of fish food weekly is a great plant food for NPT's.

Once you have 1 thriving soil based tank-you will soon need another tank due to the plant growth.

Links to more info on NPT's
https://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=84915
https://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=2903


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## DiiQue

As always, another FANTASTIC thread OFL! I insta-bookmarked. =)


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## whiskandbowl

Thank you! 

I've been wanting to add plants to my tank, and was leaning towards going full NPT, but was confused on some of the finer points. This post helps a lot!


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## Oldfishlady

Your welcome...I am sure I forgot some information....Just ask questions on what you don't understand or if you need more detail....


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## toad

Thanks, OFL! =)


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## whiskandbowl

Just a question, you say that it can take up to 3 months for a NPT to mature...but fish can be added the same day the tank is set up.
What do you mean by mature? To become completely "self sufficient" ie the plants and micro organisms have established enough to make regular filtration unnecessary? Just want to make sure I understand.

I have a 6.6gal and I've heard that the rule of thumb is 1gal per inch of fish. Does this change in an NPT? I have one betta right now, wouldn't mind adding a trumpet snail (for aeration) and maybe some other fish if possible.

Thanks!


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## Oldfishlady

You can safely add fish the day you set one up and you really want to add a couple of trumpet snails from setup as well since they have a pretty important job of aerating the soil until the plant roots can help get the job done.

With enough active growing plants-they use the byproducts in the tank to help keep the water safe-the key being active growth-the plants need to be feeding-the plants are the filtration. Along with the plants-the microorganisms recycle byproducts-everything working together.....It can take up to 3 months for the soil to start its life underwater and for the microorganism, nematodes...etc....to colonize in great enough numbers to do the job.

Since this is a closed system-it will never be completely "self sufficient" but they are close....


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## whimsicalbrainpan

Excuse my ignorance (for there is much of it and it is large) but how big of a difference is there between soil or just a sand planted tank, or a gravel tank? What do gravel planted tanks require? If there is a post on this somewhere and I missed it I apologize.


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## toad

whimsicalbrainpan said:


> Excuse my ignorance (for there is much of it and it is large) but how big of a difference is there between soil or just a sand planted tank, or a gravel tank? What do gravel planted tanks require? If there is a post on this somewhere and I missed it I apologize.




I believe the difference is that the soil provides nourishment to the plants, whereas there is no nourishment in sand and gravel, and you have add supplements like root tabs to give the plants what they need to grow.


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## whimsicalbrainpan

toad said:


> I believe the difference is that the soil provides nourishment to the plants, whereas there is no nourishment in sand and gravel, and you have add supplements like root tabs to give the plants what they need to grow.


Thank you! And here's another stupid question: Why don't all those nutrients and good stuff in the soil eventually leach out into the water making the soil useless? I know a tank is a relatively small area, but I'd think that it would happen eventually.


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## Oldfishlady

As the tank mature you have natural decomp from organics that add nutrient back to the soil-along with all the poop/byproducts produced by the livestock...All food for the plants and to help maintain nutrients in the soil itself.

This is why you don't want to over clean a soil based tank.

Sometimes, if you have a lot of root feeder plants-like swords-they might need some extra food after about 4-5 years. I make clay balls from my native clay-allow them to dry in the sun-then cram them under/around the base of the sword plant a couple of times a year or when the plant looks tired.


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## Bettagirl101

If using dirt soil for an NPT, wouldn't that make it mud once you added the water after you added the dirt soil? Wouldn't the water be hard to look at? How would you make it look good without making it mud? Sorry for all the questions.


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## Oldfishlady

That is what I thought too.....dirt+water=mud....But it isn't like that if you set a dirt based tank up correctly. The sand or small diameter gravel you cap the dirt with will help keep the dirt in place until it become water logged. Once the dirt is water logged and starts its life under water-it stays in place......

When I dig up plants or replant-I will get dirt up in the water column-but within 10 min or less the water is crystal clear and you would never know that I had a mass amount of dirt floating around.

All my tanks are dirt based and all my tanks water is crystal clear all the time.

Go to my album and you can see some pic of all my dirt based tanks


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## whimsicalbrainpan

Good to know. Thanks OFL! I have a lot to learn and it is nice to know that I can come here to do so.


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## Bettanewbie60

Oldfishlady said:


> That is what I thought too.....dirt+water=mud....But it isn't like that if you set a dirt based tank up correctly. The sand or small diameter gravel you cap the dirt with will help keep the dirt in place until it become water logged. Once the dirt is water logged and starts its life under water-it stays in place......
> 
> When I dig up plants or replant-I will get dirt up in the water column-but within 10 min or less the water is crystal clear and you would never know that I had a mass amount of dirt floating around.
> 
> All my tanks are dirt based and all my tanks water is crystal clear all the time.


So, in my gravel only planted tank should I add something to it? It is on week three and doing very well, plants growing, rooting etc. Should I use some sort of ferts besides the fish poo and extra food?


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## Oldfishlady

When using inert substrate-you will need to add ferts of some type. If you have root feeders-root tab and if water column feeders you need water column food. Seachem has a pretty good line of plant food products, however, I have limited personal experience since I don't need them.

You also should schedule water changes so that you add the water column food after a water change-This way you will remove any unneeded/unused food so the algae can't use it....

I would really like to try and keep this thread on the topic of soil based tanks.....


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## toad

Does the sand cap and soil end up being all mixed together when the snails burrow into the substrate?


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## Oldfishlady

toad said:


> Does the sand cap and soil end up being all mixed together when the snails burrow into the substrate?


It hasn't in any of mine and I have one going into the 7th year...and I have massive amount of MTS.....I remove at least 100 or more weekly....


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## toad

Oh my goodness - that's a lot of snails!

Thank you for the answer


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## Bettanewbie60

Oldfishlady said:


> When using inert substrate-you will need to add ferts of some type. If you have root feeders-root tab and if water column feeders you need water column food. Seachem has a pretty good line of plant food products, however, I have limited personal experience since I don't need them.
> 
> You also should schedule water changes so that you add the water column food after a water change-This way you will remove any unneeded/unused food so the algae can't use it....
> 
> I would really like to try and keep this thread on the topic of soil based tanks.....


K...sorry..thanks


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## Silverfang

What are some mini/carpet plants you might suggest for a smaller NPT? I've got a couple of 2.5 G's I would love to turn into NPTS, however most of the plants I've used so far are taller or would be far too large.

Also plan on doing some searching for a new light/6500k bulbs I can modify no AQ specific light fixtures for.


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## 12thletter

I am so excited to try this in my 6.6 gallon! Why do you remove the filter in a <10 gallon tank?


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## babystarz

Is there any point to adding a CO2 system to my planted tank? I have mostly low-light plants and I use Seachem Flourish and Flourish Excel. My substrate is Fluorite with a sand cap. I guess I'm just wondering how much of a difference added CO2 would make.

Also, I did get some mud in my filter when I first set up this tank, mostly because I didn't wash the substrate first. All that dusty dirt was really light and got kicked up by the filter. I washed the filter bag 3 times or so over the first week (each time shedding enough mud to make a 2 gallon bucket of water opaque and still needed to be rinsed under the tap), and after that it improved greatly on It's own. I also switched to an uptake bubble filter instead of a filter that continuously dumps water into the tank (much gentler current) and have had zero issues with mud or fine particles fogging up the tank. Even water changes aren't causing too much dust to kick up as long as I pour the water onto a plate I've set on the sand. The only thing that really causes clouding now is if I pull up a rooted plant and move it. When I first added water some of the substrate came up out of the sand cap and I was worried they would mix together, but since then they have not mixed further and my MTS are very careful about what they move around. Little ninjas.


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## ao

whimsicalbrainpan said:


> Excuse my ignorance (for there is much of it and it is large) but how big of a difference is there between soil or just a sand planted tank, or a gravel tank? What do gravel planted tanks require? If there is a post on this somewhere and I missed it I apologize.



I think it has something to do with the ion exchange capacity... which will allow it to pull nitrogen wastes into the substrate.. whereas sand and gravel does not provide this function...


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## babystarz

babystarz said:


> and after that it improved greatly on It's own.


Aaargh I meant "its"


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## Tikibirds

I think I may want to redo the 20G and add soil after all. Most of the plants are growing like weeds though.


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## Oldfishlady

Please keep this sticky on topic....Soil based planted tanks.....

As for filters-with the soil based tanks the plants can function as the filtration..

I remove my filters in my 10gal and smaller soil based tanks-because they are not needed.....Once they are mature-the soil is alive and plants thriving the plants will filter the water.

Soil based planted tanks-when setup properly with enough of the right species of plants, soil is mature and plants thriving-They are as close to a natural ecosystem that can be created in a closed system.....

You don't need any added ferts or injection of CO2 with soil based planted tanks.

As for carpet plants-it can be hard to get a true carpet that you see with the high tech CO2 injected tanks-but I can create a fairly nice carpet in my soil based using java moss, pygmy chain swords and another one I can't recall the name right now. I just got back from vacation and will have to look through my log books and post it tomorrow....seems like it was tennulas or something like that.....

Soil based tanks are nice systems-but you have to remember they are intended to be a low tech system and plants will be limited.


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## babystarz

OFL what kind of soil do you recommend? I've heard people use Miracle Gro, is there a specific type that works best?

Also, I just put some Quikrete Commercial Grade Fine Sand in one of my 5 gallon tanks and I was AMAZED at how it responded to being in water. It's a very fine white silica sand that is 0.6-0.2 mm so it's comparable to pool filter sand, possibly even finer. No dust at all, I dribbled in the first bit of water and after that more or less splashed bucketfuls into the tank and the sand did not move. No floating particles whatsoever. It's beautiful sand, I will definitely be using it in my next NPT. And it's available at pretty much any home improvement store at around $3 for a 50 pound bag. Win.


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## Gryphon

When creating the base, you had mentioned using sand or a small diameter gravel as a cap. In anyones experience, what tends to work better? I have a couple partial bags of regular store aquarium gravel that I could use as a cap, or I could go out and buy some sand. Does anyone prefer one over the other? 

Also, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but is it easier to place plants in position before adding the water? Or should I fill the tank with water and then place the plants? 

Thanks!


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## babystarz

Gryphon said:


> When creating the base, you had mentioned using sand or a small diameter gravel as a cap. In anyones experience, what tends to work better? I have a couple partial bags of regular store aquarium gravel that I could use as a cap, or I could go out and buy some sand. Does anyone prefer one over the other?
> 
> Also, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but is it easier to place plants in position before adding the water? Or should I fill the tank with water and then place the plants?
> 
> Thanks!


I prefer sand, it just looks more natural to me  It's really down to your own preference though. I will say that I think fine consistently graded sand is easier to clean than gravel.

I'm not good enough at filling the tank for the first time when I use anything dusty to avoid serious clouding so I do not add my plants until that's settled down. I'm cautious about adding plants. I'll put in 1 or 2 after the water is clear and ammonia is testing at 0ppm, and if they do well overnight I add the rest. I know some people can add just a few inches of water, then plants, then the rest of the water also.


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## Oldfishlady

For soil-anything that doesn't have any type of chemical additives, ferts, too much manure, pine bark.....Organic type potting soil, top soil, dirt from your yard.

I have used all kinds of different soil bases-and really haven't seen much difference as far as water quality-but I have seen differences in plant growth.

I used a local nursery brand potting soil they make and it was full of the perlite and that didn't cause any problems other than it floats when disturbed and looks a bit ugly until you net it out.

My dirt I use from my pasture "black gold" I like to call it-since it is from virgin land high in organics, composted leaves...etc....It will have lots of bugs, critters, worms and the like. I don't stress over it-I leave them and they drown-I look at it as more plant food or even food for the fish.

I like to add a bit of native sand and clay to my dirt and I sift it all together.

I have used generic clay kitty litter-but found it too messy when I pull plants-but it is great when used in a 25/75 mix. The added Iron is loved by the rosette plants.

When I set one up-
I add my dirt-then add just enough water to cover-then I add my sand-I don't rinse my sand-I like to use everything dry. Then I add water-drain and repeat until clear. Then I add about 2-3 inches of water and start to plant-I already have my hard scape placed, filter, heater and check the hood for placement if one is used.
Once I have everything planted-I fill with water and drain and re-fill if needed until clear.

Its important to start with enough stem plants from the beginning and clear water for best light penetration to plants. The active plant growth is what keep the water safe.

The cap-its up to you on what you want to use-My first NPT I used sand but I had some really nice 1-2mm gravel and used that on one tank and larger on yet another. I use both on some or use sand with handfuls of gravel around the base of plants to help keep them anchored until they take root or for some contrast in texture......It endless...no right or wrong per se...The goal of the cap is to help hold the soil in place until it is water logged and starts its life under water and why you don't need that much.

I used pool filter sand for the first time on the 55gal I re-setup last Oct. and it has worked fine.

This is the tank that I experimented with using sand I collected from my stock pond and ended up needing to add an inch of gravel on top of that sand due to the silts from the pond sand-What a mess-but the gravel worked to help collect the silts and to prevent more silts in the water column. I also had some anaerobic soil issue due to too deep of substrate layer, however, even with all these problems the tank lasted for 5 years before I got tired of looking at it and 2 of those years it didn't have a filter running-but only because it stopped working and I didn't replace it-that is how well the plants worked as the filtration-Plants or fish never suffered-everything thrived.....And this is the tank that also got the flea powder in it at one point-killed a lot of shrimp but nothing else......

I have needed to replace sand on occasion-after a time the sand will start to discolor and I will suck it out with my python that drains out in the garden. I use a plastic cup with dry sand-lower it into the tanks and pour in the places I need it. Best to have the filter off if one is used and usually within 2-3min its all settled.

I have also used a larger meshed net to kinda turn the sand a bit and to remove the hundreds of snails-I scoop them up along with a net full of sand and kinda shake it or sift it and that brightens the sand back up.

I don't use any specific brands-honestly I don't think it matters, I don't stress over water prams. I watch the water, plants, fish, shrimp and snails and they tell me when something is wrong-You can't beat the power of observation. Too many things can cause skewed water pram readings and you are going to do the same thing with the results that you would do with change in behavior of livestock....Water change......

If the plants are thriving/growing and needing regular trims-provided that you used enough stem plants-they will keep the water safe. 
Shrimp usually will be the first thing to tell you that you have a water quality issue. Bettas will be the last to tell you since they can tolerate more harsh conditions than other species of fish.

By understanding normal behavior it will be easier to pick out abnormal behavior.....

And when in doubt....make a water change-by the time you complete the water test it might be too late.....

Most important...relax, have fun, use your imagination and enjoy your little ecosystem....That is what its all about...


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## 12thletter

Thanks for the info about filters. Makes Sense!


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## mkayum

Is the organic peat moss safe to use as layer?? You said any soil, dirt but I want to make sure.... thanks! c:


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## Oldfishlady

Peat moss you want to limit that to about a handful or 2 per 10 gallons. Make it your first layer under the soil.

If you have soft water or plan to use R/O water add a 1/4 cup/10gal of bonemeal to the soil. For smaller tanks a tablespoon or so....

Most plants that work well in the soil based-low tech tanks like hard water and higher pH-so soft water or R/O water isn't needed.


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## Fredsterbit

I'm going to use a Fluorite Black substrate for my planted tank, will that work well? It is what the LPS uses in their tanks and it seems to work for them..


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## Oldfishlady

Fredsterbit said:


> I'm going to use a Fluorite Black substrate for my planted tank, will that work well? It is what the LPS uses in their tanks and it seems to work for them..


I would like to keep this sticky on topic of soil based planted tanks...

Start a new thread in the planted tank section about your substrate....
Thanks....


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## titolatino1970

you got me very intersted i would like to make a npt out of my 20 long and use it as a betta growout tank what filter do you recomend hob or sponge


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## Oldfishlady

I use all kinds of sources for my water movement and haven't really seen a difference in them-from HOB, canisters, sponge-I do try to limit the agitation of water at the surface so not to degas the natural CO2 that is created in the system itself.

Since this will be a grow out for Betta fry-you need to look at how the filter will affect the fry-HOB might be too strong and you risk sucking them into the filter and the sponge might be the best option. With a 20gal long I would use 2 sponge filters placed at either end.


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## titolatino1970

so im thinking hob baffled with a sponge attached to the intake with the sponge possible resting on a cave or rock maybe might work


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## Lady Courage

Oh wow! I LOVE this!!! I'm a natural gal, always have been. We feed and care for all our animals as close to nature as we can. We make the dog's raw food, the horses go barefoot, the cattle are grassfed only, all of them are treated with homeopathy... This just lines up with our whole philosophy perfectly.

I don't think I'll do it with this 3.5 gallon, primarily because we may have to take it on the road in an RV and I can't imagine a dirt floored tank would do well... Seems to me it would kick up a lot of mud to be joggled around so.

But someday! I MUST try this! Thank you for the wonderful info!


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## titolatino1970

i changed my mind im going to make a npt 20 long new sorrority i bought the quickcrete play sand and scotts organic topsoil


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## babystarz

titolatino1970 said:


> i changed my mind im going to make a npt 20 long new sorrority i bought the quickcrete play sand and scotts organic topsoil


Awesome! I'm about to do my own 20 long the same way.

OFL, I have some wild albimarginata coming next week. Would you suggest I jumpstart the cycle in my new NPT before they get here, or let the tank cycle with the fish in? Normally I just do the latter but I don't want to stress the fish out too much.


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## Oldfishlady

You do the Silent cycle with natural planted tanks-the active plant growth is what keeps the water safe-they function as the bio-filters.


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## BeautifulBetta123

What kind of soil shold I use like dirt from the garden?


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## titolatino1970

ok about to take the plunge i have small river rocks with beneficial bacterias should i strech an inch of this gravel over the quick creat sand planing to sponge filters in my 20 long have snails and 3 pregnant healty ghost shrimp i have red ramshorns nerite snails and mts this will be my sorrority tank
i also have caves with those cycled baterias i also plan to modify my 10 gallon hop filter with a sponge on the intake and baffled is that to much


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

babystarz said:


> OFL what kind of soil do you recommend? I've heard people use Miracle Gro, is there a specific type that works best?
> 
> Also, I just put some Quikrete Commercial Grade Fine Sand in one of my 5 gallon tanks and I was AMAZED at how it responded to being in water. It's a very fine white silica sand that is 0.6-0.2 mm so it's comparable to pool filter sand, possibly even finer. No dust at all, I dribbled in the first bit of water and after that more or less splashed bucketfuls into the tank and the sand did not move. No floating particles whatsoever. It's beautiful sand, I will definitely be using it in my next NPT. And it's available at pretty much any home improvement store at around $3 for a 50 pound bag. Win.


Do you know if the have any smaller bags?
I know it's an awesome price but my boyfried doesn't want me to get that much sand because of the risk of spilling it every where -.-
But I appreciate his thoughtfullness 'cause I would be sooooo annyoed with picking up a mess that big!


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Oldfishlady said:


> For soil-anything that doesn't have any type of chemical additives, ferts, too much manure, pine bark.....Organic type potting soil, top soil, dirt from your yard.
> 
> I have used all kinds of different soil bases-and really haven't seen much difference as far as water quality-but I have seen differences in plant growth.
> 
> I used a local nursery brand potting soil they make and it was full of the perlite and that didn't cause any problems other than it floats when disturbed and looks a bit ugly until you net it out.
> 
> My dirt I use from my pasture "black gold" I like to call it-since it is from virgin land high in organics, composted leaves...etc....It will have lots of bugs, critters, worms and the like. I don't stress over it-I leave them and they drown-I look at it as more plant food or even food for the fish.
> 
> I like to add a bit of native sand and clay to my dirt and I sift it all together.
> 
> I have used generic clay kitty litter-but found it too messy when I pull plants-but it is great when used in a 25/75 mix. The added Iron is loved by the rosette plants.
> 
> When I set one up-
> I add my dirt-then add just enough water to cover-then I add my sand-I don't rinse my sand-I like to use everything dry. Then I add water-drain and repeat until clear. Then I add about 2-3 inches of water and start to plant-I already have my hard scape placed, filter, heater and check the hood for placement if one is used.
> Once I have everything planted-I fill with water and drain and re-fill if needed until clear.
> 
> Its important to start with enough stem plants from the beginning and clear water for best light penetration to plants. The active plant growth is what keep the water safe.
> 
> The cap-its up to you on what you want to use-My first NPT I used sand but I had some really nice 1-2mm gravel and used that on one tank and larger on yet another. I use both on some or use sand with handfuls of gravel around the base of plants to help keep them anchored until they take root or for some contrast in texture......It endless...no right or wrong per se...The goal of the cap is to help hold the soil in place until it is water logged and starts its life under water and why you don't need that much.
> 
> I used pool filter sand for the first time on the 55gal I re-setup last Oct. and it has worked fine.
> 
> This is the tank that I experimented with using sand I collected from my stock pond and ended up needing to add an inch of gravel on top of that sand due to the silts from the pond sand-What a mess-but the gravel worked to help collect the silts and to prevent more silts in the water column. I also had some anaerobic soil issue due to too deep of substrate layer, however, even with all these problems the tank lasted for 5 years before I got tired of looking at it and 2 of those years it didn't have a filter running-but only because it stopped working and I didn't replace it-that is how well the plants worked as the filtration-Plants or fish never suffered-everything thrived.....And this is the tank that also got the flea powder in it at one point-killed a lot of shrimp but nothing else......
> 
> I have needed to replace sand on occasion-after a time the sand will start to discolor and I will suck it out with my python that drains out in the garden. I use a plastic cup with dry sand-lower it into the tanks and pour in the places I need it. Best to have the filter off if one is used and usually within 2-3min its all settled.
> 
> I have also used a larger meshed net to kinda turn the sand a bit and to remove the hundreds of snails-I scoop them up along with a net full of sand and kinda shake it or sift it and that brightens the sand back up.
> 
> I don't use any specific brands-honestly I don't think it matters, I don't stress over water prams. I watch the water, plants, fish, shrimp and snails and they tell me when something is wrong-You can't beat the power of observation. Too many things can cause skewed water pram readings and you are going to do the same thing with the results that you would do with change in behavior of livestock....Water change......
> 
> If the plants are thriving/growing and needing regular trims-provided that you used enough stem plants-they will keep the water safe.
> Shrimp usually will be the first thing to tell you that you have a water quality issue. Bettas will be the last to tell you since they can tolerate more harsh conditions than other species of fish.
> 
> By understanding normal behavior it will be easier to pick out abnormal behavior.....
> 
> And when in doubt....make a water change-by the time you complete the water test it might be too late.....
> 
> Most important...relax, have fun, use your imagination and enjoy your little ecosystem....That is what its all about...



hello, Can you explain to me how I would use the dirt from my yard?
We don't use any ferts or anything so it should be safe but all I need to do is get the big chunks of randomness, rinse it a few times, then add it? Thanks!


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## Oldfishlady

The way I harvest dirt from my yard-I dig down a few inches to avoid any grass, weeds...etc.....Once I have my dirt-I sift it-I use rabbit wire for this.

I don't rinse my dirt before I use it-I like to add it to my tank dry-then I add water-just enough to cover slightly-but not soupy-then I add my sand cap dry-I don't rinse the sand either-I fill up the tank-drain-repeat until near clear-then with only a few inches of water I plant-then fill with water-drain-repeat if needed until the water is crystal clear.

If you do it correctly-you shouldn't need to make but 2-3 water changes to clear the water column


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Thank you :3

This thread is so helpful and I really appreciate your advice.
I'll post some pictures on a new thread once I can take pictures and get the tank established C:


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## OrangeAugust

So when/how do you add plants? 


Do you plant the plants in the soil and then add the cap, or do you plant the plants after you add the cap?
Do you plant with some water in it already or do you plant without water?
How do you add in water without disturbing the plants and sand/soil?


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

OrangeAugust said:


> So when/how do you add plants?
> 
> 
> Do you plant the plants in the soil and then add the cap, or do you plant the plants after you add the cap?
> Do you plant with some water in it already or do you plant without water?
> How do you add in water without disturbing the plants and sand/soil?



I don't think it matters how you put the plants in but I'd recommend putting them in the soil then put the cap on because I put them in after I put that cap on and after I put the water in and it made a mess but I was too frustrated to start over but it still looks nice!
Usually after you put in sand and soil the water will get cloudy and you will most likely have to do like 3 or 4 water changes[what I did] for the water to get clear.

AS far as adding water without disturbing the plants, Its a semi-long process but it worked for me, use a plastic cup to add the water in verrrry slowly cause if you try to rush it, it will make the mess bigger.
From my experience last night. I'll post some pictures for you to see in a minute[ FINALLY GOT TO TAKE PICTURES!]


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

ItsKourtneyYoC8 said:


> I don't think it matters how you put the plants in but I'd recommend putting them in the soil then put the cap on because I put them in after I put that cap on and after I put the water in and it made a mess but I was too frustrated to start over but it still looks nice!
> Usually after you put in sand and soil the water will get cloudy and you will most likely have to do like 3 or 4 water changes[what I did] for the water to get clear.
> 
> AS far as adding water without disturbing the plants, Its a semi-long process but it worked for me, use a plastic cup to add the water in verrrry slowly cause if you try to rush it, it will make the mess bigger.
> From my experience last night. I'll post some pictures for you to see in a minute[ FINALLY GOT TO TAKE PICTURES!]



p.S I used a 1 gallon water pitcher to ad water in from the cup.


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## Oldfishlady

I place my dry soil-then add water-just enough to cover the dirt-then I add my dry sand-then I fill with water-drain-repeat until clear-Then with about 3-4inches of water-I plant. Then fill, drain if needed-refill...etc...until clear-usually only take 2-3 water changes-if done correctly.

I use my free hand to divert the water flow so not to kick up the dirt/sand or depending on the hard scape item-I might direct the water flow on it.

I let the water settle for at least 5 min between changes to allow the sand to settle.

I already have my hard scape in place before I add the sand cap

I also might add more sand if needed after I am done and sometimes I will use a small handful of gravel or larger rock at the roots of stem plants to help keep them in place.

I like to plant my rosette plants (swords, crypts, sags, vals..etc...) after the cap-you want their crown to be slightly above the substrate-
Stem plants can be planted before or after the cap-I have found it easier to plant after the cap.

When I make the water changes for setup-I don't drain 100% of the water-I may only remove 50-75%-then refill-this will help avoid too much disturbance of the soil/sand or up-rooting plants.


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## OrangeAugust

Ok, thanks!


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Here is the link for my thread about my NPT and Ghost shrimpies :3

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=1272831#post1272831


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## titolatino1970

ok i did it lets see if its good set it up last night i diy the cover with egg crate its for drop ceiling lights. the lights are 2 20 wht 6500k ge's and 1 26 wht 6500k ge clamp lights. 1 more partial water change and ill add my girls 


































jj


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

is it okay to use 2 different substrate as the cap? Like sand and small river pebbles for example?


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## Oldfishlady

ItsKourtneyYoC8 said:


> is it okay to use 2 different substrate as the cap? Like sand and small river pebbles for example?


Yes its fine...I do this on occasion myself-Just try to keep your cap half as much as your soil layer. The cap is only to help hold the soil in place until it matures-plus it is easier to clean than soil.


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Oldfishlady said:


> Yes its fine...I do this on occasion myself-Just try to keep your cap half as much as your soil layer. The cap is only to help hold the soil in place until it matures-plus it is easier to clean than soil.



Sweet 

Thanks a bunch, you have been such a HUUUGE help >.<


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## ringo3632

Great thread! is there any other kind of livestock that you recommend to aerate the soil? the snails are small and easy, i just don't like cleaning them out of my tanks all the time. Or maybe using some kinda of other live stock that feeds on the snails?


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## ao

ringo3632 said:


> Great thread! is there any other kind of livestock that you recommend to aerate the soil? the snails are small and easy, i just don't like cleaning them out of my tanks all the time. Or maybe using some kinda of other live stock that feeds on the snails?


asassin snails also burrow and wil eat other snails... expensive to get a large population though...

you can really just manually poke the soil to aerate


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## Oldfishlady

That is correct....also, once the stem plants start to grow well-the roots will pull oxygen into the soil to help prevent anaerobic problems and so poking is just needed temporary.


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## marktrc

As a cap...you say can use small gravel. Reg aquarium gravel is too big? My gf wants to set up either a tank or a tub for water garden. I suppose it's about the same? In Hawaii it's hard to get play sand lol. They sell coral sand everywhere. I'm thinking the coral sand won't work. I'll need to get aquarium sand if reg gravel is too big.


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## imsunflwr1

*some questions*

Hi OFL!

I'm a newbie here and new to aquariums... I did have a Betta many, many years ago that I kept in a large brandy snifter on my coffee table. That was back in the day that I could walk to the LFS and buy a bag of live brine shrimp that I kept in the fridge. Well, now that I've been reading this forum I want to do a bit better. Last night I bought a 5.5 gal aquarium and after reading your posts I want to do a NPT, but I do have a few questions...

I was going to buy dirt last night, but was not sure b/c everything organic that I found had fertilizer in it or some kind of advanced moisture control in it. Didn't think that was right. They did have just plain old top soil... is that what I should get?

Regarding the MTS (took me a while to figure out what that meant)... you say you scoop out hundreds! Do they multiply that quickly? I did see some on Ebay... How many should I start out with?

I saw a lot of plants (many of which you suggested) on ebay, snails also. Is that a good place to get them? The LFS's around here don't have much and from what I've read I have to have all of the plants, snails, and at least some fish ready to go. Am I correct on this info? 

Also... can I use colored aquarium sand as a cap or is that too light? I saw a black and white mix that I really liked.

I am so excited and you have been such an inspiration! I was telling the lady at Lowe's about it and she looked at me like I was nuts. She has several aquariums and had never heard of it. I told her I would print out and bring her the info... by the end of our conversation she was very interested! 

Thanks so much for any information you can help me with! ~Marcia


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## Oldfishlady

marktrc-you can also use pool filter sand or anything that is inert and small in diameter. Sometimes you can find a good cap at your home supply type stores in the pool or garden section. The crushed coral/coral sand-might cause water chemistry problems, however, if you have really soft water-it might be fine to use. 

Marcia-top soil will work fine and like with any dirt-sift it or pick as much of the larger pieces of organic matter out that you can.
MTS or trumpet snails are livebearers and multiply pretty fast...lol....like most of the common snails. I would start out with 2-3 for a 5gal tank....Once the stem plants start to grow well-they also will help prevent anaerobic issues since the stem plant roots bring oxygen into the soil.
I have never bought anything live off ebay, however, I have heard good things.
Yes, it is very important to start out a soil based tank with enough of the right species of plants, otherwise, it can crash on you. And just as important as starting off with enough of the right species of plants.....Active plant growth-the active plant growth is what helps to keep the water safe for the livestock.
I always add my livestock the same day I set one up and have never had any problems. Matter of fact....I am setting a new 10gal up today...lol.....

Colored aquarium sand-I have never used it-but the black and white mix sounds pretty and it might be natural colored and not dyed. So it might be fine to use-I don't have any personal experience with it-but I have used both natural black sand without problems and the pool filter sand I use is closer to white in color than tan like the playsand. I will say that dark substrate is better for the fish color and will help make their color pop-since fish in general will change color naturally to blend into their environment.

It took me awhile to warm up to the dirt in the tank idea too....lol......You would think..._water+dirt=mud or muddy mess_...but it doesn't as oddly as it seems...lol.....Plants grow great in nutrient rich soil/dirt as long as they have proper color temp light and photoperiod. The soil based tanks are great systems IMO/E....As close to a complete ecosystem that can be created in a glass box/closed system.....


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## imsunflwr1

Thanks so much, OFL! I see quite a few ppl here that use Miracle Grow Organic and that's what I saw, but I'm sure it had ferts in it... guess I still go with just "dirt". 

Another thing I thought of when you say "livestock" I'm just doing a Betta in the 5 gal and I also have a 2.5 gal... so just the one fish, a few MTS, and lots of plants are OK? BTW... that brings up another question... I've seen several plants that you've mentioned listed as "bunch" plants. I think that means that they don't have any roots yet... are those OK to get?

I did buy a light today, but now I'm wondering if it's correct... it's not a strip it's a bulb, from the aquarium dept. Says "Super Daylight" 10 watt 6500K. I bought a reptile light hood for it to screw into. Is that going to be OK?

I am so sorry for all the questions, just want to be sure... hope you don't get tired of them. Thanks for all your help! ~Marcia


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## paris38

Hi everyone!I've decided to start a npt in a 38 gallon and can't wait!I had a question about the soil though.I looked at Lowes and found Garden Pro top soil,but I'm not sure about it.It said it was enhanced with orgainic compost so I thought it might be safe.What do you guys think?


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## Oldfishlady

That light should be fine.

I add common snails, pond, ramshorn and trumpet as well as red cherry shrimp to all my soil based tanks. In the 10gal and larger tanks-I will add a BN pleco, however, in the 10gal-I do swap them out every 2-4 months as they out grow the tank (I always have plenty of BN fry since I raise them too) Then usually Bettas or guppies and soon angelfish-once they pair off and spawn.

Bunching plants-are usually sold bare rooted stems-about 6-12 per bunch. These are fine to use and how they are normally sold and propagated-This is how I use them too. I pinch the top and replant on a regular basis.


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## Oldfishlady

paris38 said:


> Hi everyone!I've decided to start a npt in a 38 gallon and can't wait!I had a question about the soil though.I looked at Lowes and found Garden Pro top soil,but I'm not sure about it.It said it was enhanced with orgainic compost so I thought it might be safe.What do you guys think?


It might be okay since it is organic compost-you want to avoid any added ferts-like Osmocoat (spelling)

I just setup a new soil based last night and used a potting soil I have never used before and it has natural ferts listed on the label-not sure what that means....lol.....

Usually what you will see with too much ferts in the water column is algae problems, however, some can also become toxic to livestock.

Plain top soil is also a good choice.


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## paris38

Thanks OFL!


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## imsunflwr1

OK... I bought my organic potting soil last night and I'm going to be ordering plants,snails, and shrimp today/tomorrow. Yay! I was trying to find someone who would have all I need... not going to happen, so my question is. As these plants & livestock arrive, how do I keep them until everything arrives and I'm ready to set-up the aquarium(s)? Just float the plants in a bucket or something? What about the shrimp & snails?

OFL... am I understanding this right. You dirt the tank, add plants, do the water changes as you described... when the tank is clear, then you add snails and shrimp. Then wait a while(few days?) then add the Betta? Sorry to be so anal... just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

I have to confess... my OCD took over. Petco got a new shipment of Bettas and I bought 4!!! I do have 2 - 5.5gal and 2 - 2.5 gal tanks just waiting to get the supplies and get going!

Again, thanks so much!


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## Oldfishlady

I add all livestock the same day I set a soil based tank up. Snails, shrimp and fish.....As long as you started out with enough of the right species of plants and don't overstock with fish-the plants will take care of any byproducts produced by the fish/livestock-along with some partial water changes.

By overstocking-I mean lots of fish...not snails or shrimp...

To keep the plants until ready-any container of water will work-add a heater and lights-You can also use this container to hold any livestock you have too. Shrimp and/or snails-keep them in smaller containers and float them in the bucket or tank you have the plants in-Make 25-50% water changes every couple of days and keep the light on for at least 10 hours/day.

Look forward to reading and seeing pic on your new Thread-once you get your soil based tank setup...Be sure and point me in that direction so I can follow your thread.

You will really enjoy the soil based tank once it has matured-I know I did-once I got over the idea of putting dirt in an aquarium....lol....

Ask all the questions you need.....We are happy to help anyway we can...


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## imsunflwr1

Thank you so much! That really helps!

I really like the soil that I got... think it will work out just great. I started sifting it this afternoon, but need a smaller screen... too many twigs, etc were falling through. Will stop at Lowe's and get that this afternoon. Have my orders just about ready to purchase... will definitley keep you posted. Again, thank you!


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## Juicebox

OFL can you please tell me how to trim plants without killing or hurting them,how do you know what part to cut?

i went out last night and bought a bag of miracle grow organic choice potting soil and a bag of play sand. im goin to redo my tank into a planted one in a few weeks time when i can get proper lights and plants

could you also tell me what wouls be the best type of plant for a beginner like myself to use as a grass carpet for the foreground,i love the look of grass in tanks


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## ChibreneyDragon

I loved this post, THANK YOU! Although I've had a lot of problems with ammonia in my planted tank.


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## Oldfishlady

To trim stem plants-pinch or cut them back at any leaf point
Rosette plants-pinch back dead/dieing/unwanted leaves as near to the crown as you can.

Grass like plants-like sags, vals, microsword, chain swords...etc....trim like you cut grass.


To plant Stem plants-remove the lower leaves from the cutting and plant the stem or place a heavy object on it to hold it down until it roots and anchors itself.

What I use for my lawn...._Echinodorus tenellus_(pygmy chain sword) this seem to work well with the soil based low-mod light tanks.


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## imsunflwr1

I'm ready to place my plant order, but am not sure how many bunches of each to buy.  For instance... when ordering a bunch of Cabomba caroliniana is says 6+ stems. I believe I'm to plant one stem at a time, so would one bunch of this plant be enough for 2 - 2.5g tanks? 3 in one and 3 in another? I'll be having other plants also, but just wondering if this would be enough of this plant. Hope I'm making myself clear... 

Thanks again!


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## Oldfishlady

In soil based tank-it is important to start out with enough of the right species of plants.

I like to recommend at least 3+ different species of stem plants-even in the smaller tanks. This is because not all plants will do well and by having several different species-ensures at least one-heavy feeding-fast growing stem plant will help to keep the water safe.

In a 2-2.5gal tank-3-4 stems of 3-4 different stem plants and a rosette-along with the all important floating plant-like water lettuce. Once the soil is mature (about 3 months) and starts its life underwater-you can remove some of the stem plants to allow more room/light for the rosette and other plants.

You know the system is doing well when you need to trim 50% of the stem plants within the first 7-10 days of setup.


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## Juicebox

thanks for the reply old fish lady, i currently have a 14 gallon aqueon tank,i think its like a 10 gallon of the same brand but with 4 gallon added higher on top,not longer in width.

i am going to buy all my plants at the same time.. like many other newbies im not sure how many of each plant i need for my tank..


my plan is to put my beta in a 5 gallon bucket with heater and water. take out all my fake plants and gravel from my tank and give the walls a scrub with a clean toohbrush,then ill add the soil and sand, ill fill the tank 3 or 4 times till water is running clear through my filter,then ill take out all water except up to an inch above my soil.. the next day i will do my planting and then refill all the water, on the third day ill add my beta and heater back into the tank..


i allready have frogsbit in my tank now and its doin well so i dont need any floating plants.. but i need everything else..

is it possible to tell me how many stem plants i need total and how many rosettes,im not sure what rosettes are, and how many low growing foreground plants? i am goin to put 2 small moss balls in also as i think they look cool..



also would it be possible to point me in the direction of a good place to buy plants online maybe,my lfs has snails all in their plant tanks and i heard petco plants can sometimes find it hard adjusting to life in a new tank since they are kept in plastic cylinders in the stores.


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## imsunflwr1

Once again... thank you so much Oldfishlady!

I was at a LFS and they have MTS! They said to stop by whenever I'm ready and they'll be happy to give me as many as I need! LOL!

I'm getting there bit by bit! So excited, Can hardly wait to get all my supplies!


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## Oldfishlady

Rosette plants are-swords, sags, vals, cryps, anubias to name the most common used-mainly plants that grow leaves from a crown or single axis and reproduce by runners.

Its hard to give numbers-but roughly 75% of the floor planted with stem plants and 10% floating. Its better to have too many than too few and its always a good idea to have another tank or bucket and extra lights on hand-plus, within a week 10 days you should have a lot of extra plants just from the trims you make

I would check out aquabid for plants or ebay.....Plants usually don't cost that much...its the shipping that can be expensive and on some of the aquabid plants-they have free shipping....

Laffs.....usually most pet shops will give MTS and any of the common snails for Free-since they are considered pest snails....lol....They can overpopulate fairly fast...personally, I like the common snails and they all have jobs in my systems.

I am excited for you guys too.....I look forward to seeing your tanks once setup....Once you go live plants its hard to go back...lol......I have seen behaviors I have only dreamed about in my planted tanks. The soil based are as close to a natural ecosystem that can be created in a glass box/closed system. Its still a closed system and need some help-but overall they are great and a lot easier to care for than you think...Its all about balance and proper color temp lights.....


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## lillyandquigly

sorry if this has been answered previously in the thread, but if you use dirt from outside your home, how do you make sure it's clean? Also where can you get sand for the cap?


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## Oldfishlady

Well.....as long as you don't use chemicals-like ferts and pesticides in your yard/area-the soil should be safe-I would dig down at least 10-12 inches to harvest the dirt for the tank-to be safe....

Sand, I get my sand at walmart, home depot or lowes.....I use both playsand and pool filter sand and you can use small diameter gravel.


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## paris38

Oldfishlady:If I use 6500k lighting can I get low light and medium light plants?Thanks!


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## MistersMom

Can 1.5 gallon tank be a NPT? I think ive heard people say no, but you said on your filter list, a 1-10 gallon tnka gets no filter. so can a 1 gallon be NPT ?


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## Oldfishlady

A "Daylight" 6500k bulb is what I use for my planted tanks for low to mod light plants.

If it holds water-I plant it...lol.....IMO/E-any size container can be planted, however, you might be limited on fish species with some smaller containers.

In other words....Yes, IMO/E a 1.5gal is fine to start a soil based planted tank for a Betta and shrimp and/or snails.

Cute, unique little half gallon and smaller bowls make nice planted containers with either shrimp and/or snails too.....

You are only limited by your imagination and creativity with plants..........


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## MistersMom

Would i have to do alot of water changes with 1.5? and i only have a small female in there ight now, i could get some srimp and a snail. i plant to get another 1.5 gallon for my female, because im selling my 20 gallon soon. if your interested lol. but i had 3 males in it, and somehow all but one died, i think they may have had internal parasited because the one who survives has clear stringy poop. and he wont eat. and he darts alot. BUT anyways, a 1.5 gallon for both my ne girls and a NPT on both sound legit lol. i could have a snail or 2 in each and shrimp but the light issue is, it came with a LED light, do you know of any plants that dont need but an LED ? like maybe a moss ball? because those are the only light I have... unless i set them in the sun room, but they may not like the sun.... I just don't know.


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## Oldfishlady

Once my unfiltered- 1gal-3gal-heavy planted soil based are mature(about 3 months)-I make 4-5 more or less partial water changes a year-provided that the plants are thriving and doing their job. 
On first setup-I make 2-3 partials for the first week or so then back down to 1-2 weekly-then monthly. 
This is stocked with a single adult Betta and shrimp-usually half dozen or so and lots of common snails-maybe 20 or so that are thinned out on a regular basis. Water prams are all 0ppm(zero) across the board-the plants take care of the water and DOC's.

Plants for LED's would be anubias, ferns, moss-It would be risky to setup a soil based with just those plants and I wouldn't recommend it. Bare bottom or inert substrate would be safe-along with proper water changes of course....

Don't need another tank...but thanks.....I just seen a 40gal with everything and a stand at the thrift shop for $30.00 and a complete 10gal for $10.00-both including heaters, lights, filter, gravel and one even had a remote-don't know what it was for...lol........wish I had a place for them....lol.....


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## lillyandquigly

thanks OFL!


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## Juicebox

regarding the small diameter gravel,i am planning on using play sand as a cap,then i will take some nice decorative small stones and make 2 big circles in each side of the tank in back corners,i will plant my tallest species of plants in here,so it looks like a little garden section,i was going to use the gravel i have now to put inside the stoned off circles on top of the sand,its big diameter though,it will only be on maybe 40 percent of the floors surface,the rest will be just sand.

should i not use this big diameter gravel,its not suepr big,i think its just regular petco black gravel, but im afraid if i go for smaller diameter gravel the adf frogs i plan gettin in the future would swallow the small gravel and die


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## paris38

Once again,thank you Oldfishlady!


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## imsunflwr1

> OFL - You will need to make 1-3 times a week 25-50% water only changes for the first 1-2 weeks-Then decrease as you see plants growing/thriving to 1-2 25-50% a week. By the 3 month stage and provided plants are thriving and you have had to make at least 4-5 trims on the stem plants-Reduce water changes to monthly 50% and remove the filter if you want. As the tank matures-plants thriving you can use your judgment on water changes and reduce them further.


When you do a water change are you just using tap water? What about the cold temp and chlorine? If I warm the water up a bit then my water softener comes into play. Is that OK?


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## Oldfishlady

You always use dechlorinator with any water used in the aquarium.

I wouldn't use water from a water softening unit for aquariums. If you can't adjust the temp at the tap without getting softened water. Then sit the un-softened water in a pan of warm water to bring it up to temp.


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## imsunflwr1

OK... thanks OFL! Right now I'm just looking at small (2.5 - 5.5) tanks but, what if I love this and want to do a larger NPT someday? Perhaps a large plastic garbage pail, fill it with water, let it sit to dechlorinate, and heat it? Is that feasible? I've never used the dechlorinating tablets/drops... just let the water sit on my kitchen countertop for a few days. Is there a brand you'd recommend? Thanks again for all your help!


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## Oldfishlady

What is your source water, are you in the US-if you are and you have city supplied water-you will have both chlorine and chloramine in the water. You can rid the water of chlorine by aging but not the chloramines. If you have well water-then you may not need a dechlorinater. Several good dechlorinators on the market-a lot of member use Prime. I don't need dechlorinators since I have well water.

Once you start one NPT-you will find yourself needing/wanting to setup another and another...etc....lol.....The high nutrient soil can really get the plants growing and soon you are over ran by plant trimmings. You can only replant so many back into the same tank before it is so crammed full that the fish can't turn around...lol....

I ended up with 18 tanks that range from 1gal-to-75gal in the house and this was from a single plant purchase and it all happened within a year....lol.....This is when having a good relationship with a local Ma & Pa pet shop comes in handy. Along with all the extra plants and fish/inverts I breed-my hobby pays for itself....

As long as you can provide the proper light to support the plant growth-any container will work for plants. Around my house, if it holds water- it has something aquatic in it...lol....


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## imsunflwr1

hahahahhaaaaaaa! Well, I think I'm going to be one of those that will be overrun too!! I have purchased several small tanks so.... 

I do live in the US and have city water. My poor little Bettas... they've been living in chloramines!!! I'm heading to the LFS to get some Prime! 

Also I got notice that my Hygro "Green Temple" will be delivered today so I'm scrambling to get a temp bucket set up. Have the light ready and the heater is running, but I'll have to add the dechlorinater when I get home. Poor babies... they will be so cold!

Thanks Again!


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## Oldfishlady

Check out your local thrift shops-this is a great place to get tanks and usually they will be complete with lights, filter, heaters...etc....I have picked up several 10gal for under $10.00 and 1-5gal for $2- $5.00 and this is even with heaters.

You do have to go to them on a regular basis since everything changes-I just seen a 40gal complete and it came with an iron stand for $30.00 and a 10gal for under $15.00 just last week....didn't need either one of them...but it sure was tempting...lol.....I haven't bought a brand new tank-ever...I either get them at thrift shops, yard sales or given to me for free or as a gift. Usually the only thing I ever have to buy are heaters and sometime light strips.

I do replace my light bulbs every 12 months since the intensity can be lost over time and this changes the color temp. I don't buy aquarium specific bulbs-I get mine in the lighting dept-cheaper...I don't like to pay extra for the word "aquarium"...lol.....


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## whiskandbowl

Light question! 
Where can I get a proper plant light? It seems that a "_Daylight 6500k bulb"_
is the way to go. Do they make ones that fit into Aq hoods? I have the Petco bookshelf, I think it's around 24 inches long. I really don't want to use clamp lamps, as I've seen some people use. We have ZooMed FloraLight (i think that's what it's called) at my work, but can't find how many "k" it is.
Thanks in advance


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## Oldfishlady

If your hood uses the standard 2 pin florescent light bulb tubes...You can find the 6500k daylights at most lighting dept section of a store like- wal mart, home depot or lowes.


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## whiskandbowl

Excellent, thank you!


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## Juicebox

i have put my organic potting soil and play sand cap into my 14 gallon,its been running for 3 or 4 days now, i put in some rocks and a fake plant and a cup for a cave, i put my betta inside the tank along with about 15 mts and 2 ghost shrimp, i have a nice amount of frogsbit floating,but i cant afford to buy any plants for mayb 4 to 6 weeks,will the soil stay good with no plants in it during this time?will it be ok to drain out most of the water when i get plants and then plant and fill it back up


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## Oldfishlady

For safety, I would remove the Betta....without enough active growing stem plants the water might get too toxic for a fish, shrimp and even the snails for that matter. Watch the snails and if you see them all going to the top-make a big water change. The frogbit will help some, I would make 2-3 50% water only changes in the mean time.

The soil goes through a lot of changes in the process of starting its life underwater.

Once you get your plants-drain the tank to a couple of inches-Plant-refill and make more water changes if needed until the water is clear.


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## Juicebox

for the first 3 days i did a 90 percent water change every day before i added any livestock,waters crystal clear.

how do i know if the water gets too toxic other than watching how the inmates behave,will it be high amonia and nitrate,is it something i can test for? coz i will test for amonia and nitrates daily and do changes when i see it go high,in fact i might do 30 percent change every day just to be safe and 1 or 2 50 changes a week

i do have a 5 gallon tank,but i have 2 african dwarf frogs and 2 ghost shrimp in there,i am just afraid if i add a betta and a ghost shrimp into that tank now i will be over stocking


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## Oldfishlady

I would test daily and make water changes based on ammonia/nitrite, however the chaos that newly submerged soil can create when you don't have enough plants to help keep it controlled-won't always show up as ammonia/nitrite. The soil can become anaerobic, unstable and can become toxic. This is why it is so important to start a soil based tank with enough of the right species of plants from the start-For the safety of the livestock.....


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## mkendle87

Thank you OFL, this is the thread I have been waiting for. There are so many conflicting methods and answers I have received on other sites that have made me afraid to even attempt dirting a tank. After reading this thread however, Im going to follow your method as it seems to be very successful. I have 3 questions that maybe you can help me with.

How do you feel about aquarium sand as a cap over play sand? I really like the black aquarium sand they sell at pecto.

Is wattage of lights more important or is the spectrum? If I set up my 10 gallon with soil, I plan to use 2 13w 6500K CFL Bulbs. If I decide to dirt my 20 gallon, I'm going to purchase a T5 HO light with one 6500K sunlight bulb and one pink plant bulb (not sure of the spectrum but its the flora sun bulb by zoomed). Will those light choices be enough for me to have a successful system?

Last, Where is a good place to find plants? The LFS and petco in my area doesn't carry a good selection of plants. I can get a few tubed plants like anubias and java fern but there is no selection for stem plants.

I have received so many different answers. I don't want to have a high tech system, I just want to know the basics for having a low tech dirt tank that I can enjoy.

Thank you.


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## Oldfishlady

Your welcome and I am glad it helped you out...

Its the proper color temp that is most important for plant growth-the 6500k is what has worked well for me in my dirt based system. The bulbs you plan sound perfect=especially since they are new. I change mine out every 12 months since florescent bulbs intensity can be lost over time.

IMO-sand is sand-inert-I used that black aquarium sand on one of mine and it has worked well-can't really tell any difference between the pool filter and play sand...well...other than color....lol...plant growth seems to be the same..The dark sand/substrate in general can also help the color pop on the fish, inverts and plants IME-as well as some fish tend to like the darker hue.

As for plants-I would check and see if you have any local aquarium clubs-check out PVAS and even if its not near you- often a member will be-Local aquarium clubs are a great place to get plants.

That is what I love about the natural planted dirt based systems-Once they mature-easy to care for and usually you don't need any added ferts, however, as they get some age on them-I have found that my sword plants will need some extra Iron after a couple of years and even then-I make my own with my native clay soil-I make red clay balls and let them dry in the sun-then I cram them in the soil around the sword plants and crypts-Perks those plants up within a week...lol....And the beauty of the natural systems is that you don't need to inject CO2-As the organic matter decomps it will produce natural CO2 as well as when the lights are out-naturally. Personally I don't want to mess with CO2...lol.....

Look forward to seeing a new thread with pics once you get them setup-I will be looking for it.....


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## Juicebox

what do u think about them lily bulbs oldfishlady,the ones they sell in petco in dry packets,3 bulbs for about 5 dollars,i saw a thread about them and was interested,do they have any place in a npt or are they too big or block out too much light for the other plants


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## Oldfishlady

I used the lily bulbs from wal mart and had a 50/50 success with them. Nice little plant-the leave float on top of the water like a lily pad. As long as the leaves don't cover too much of the top they shouldn't cause any problems. I do have to cut them back on a regular bases when I get too many leaves at the surface.


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## MonteCarlo

I guess im stubborn about the MTS, but I'd much rather keep poking the soil until the tank is mature. Sorry for such a specific question, but how much do you have to poke? I think I read somewhere every inch you should. And do you want to poke all the way down, or just enough to slightly penetrate into the actual dirt?

Also,
I know you said vacuuming is bad, but I still feel I'd want to at least once ina long while if it gets too gritty. Is it safe to do the hover technique i read about, where you hover the vacuum over the sand/gravel cap and move the mulm up with your finger?


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## Oldfishlady

IMO/E-the common snails are important for the natural systems-since they complete the little ecosystem we are creating. While the trumpets snails can help aerate the soil to prevent anaerobic issues. The common snails also help to rid the tank of debris-dead/dieing plant matter/organics, provide ferts for the plants...etc.... However, I do understand why you don't want snails since they can over populate and just like anything else we have to do for a closed system-like-water changes, trimming plants, removal of excess debris, algae etc.....we may have to remove some of the extra snails on occasion too-just part of the general up-keep of a closed system.

In place of the trumpets-I would poke the substrate all the way to the bottom in several different places 1-2 times a week-more or less. Once you have active stem plant growth-their roots should be able to provide the needed oxygen to the soil.

One of the hardest things some hobbyist have with the natural systems-Is letting it get dirty and/or allowing debris to lay on the substrate. The urge to keep everything clean is hard to over come when switching from a standard system to a soil based natural system. And while removing this debris won't cause the system to crash-It can upset the balance to a degree-I am not saying to let it get disgusting dirty-but that allowing some mulm/debris helps to feed the system in general.

You don't want too clean-but you don't want too dirty either.....Finding that all important balance so that everything works together.

The way I vacuum the mulm/debris-using my free hand I brush the excessive mulm/debris toward the vacuum. I do this maybe once a year in my 20gal-75gal NPT's and about 2-3 times a year in my 1gal-10gal's.


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## Destinystar

I dont have a planted tank I only have floating plants, Anacharis, Hornwort and some Pennywort. I have a fluorescent 10 watt 5100K . My plants do fairly well but sometimes the ends of my Ancharis will start to look yellow which I dont like and just end up pinching the ends off. I also do get a little bit of brown string algae which I just clean off when I do a water change. What I would like to know is if this bulb is a good one for the plants I have ? Thanks !


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## Oldfishlady

The 5100k is within the color range for plants-Ideally you want 6500k-Some species of plants will grow in the color range of 5000k-10,000k.

With florescent bulbs you also need to change them about every 12 months-due to the intensity can be lost/used up over time. We can see the light-but the plants can't....

The yellowing or die off can either be a normal die off or nutrient/light related. Pinching the ends or dead parts-like what you are doing is what you want to do-you might want get a 6500k when it is time to change your bulb or if the plants start to look worse. Also, you might want to add some ferts if you don't already and follow a photoperiod of at least 10h/day if you are not already. I stay on a 12h/day in the warmer months and drop to 10h/day in the cooler months.


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## Destinystar

Thanks so much OFL thats sounds good I have had the tank for 7 months so soon I will get a new bulb for it. Yep mine it on around 10 hours a day right now. I have never used any ferts but would like to try something soon, I love my plants dont want to lose any although during the summer I lost some Hornwort is started getting brown and than lost all the needles dont know what happened besides the fact that I covered some of it up with a big IAL which could not have been good learned a good lesson there...lol


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## imsunflwr1

OFL... I see you mention your 1 gallon tanks. I'd like to do a couple of those, but am not sure about the lighting. What bulb do you use? Thanks Much!


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## Oldfishlady

I use the CFL 6500k...The few bulbs I do get in the fish section...lol...


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## imsunflwr1

ok... great! That's what I have, but I was afraid it might be too much for a small tank. As always, Thanks!


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## DJjoey0812

*Thx*

Thx so much been trying to put a real plant in my tank so Thx


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## imsunflwr1

Okay... I dirted my tank with Miracle Grow Organic, I added water and got it damp... then I added Petco black sand and am now adding water. I'm doing 2 - 2.5g and 1 - 5.5g. The 2 smaller tanks are filled, but the water is clear??? Did I do something wrong? I can tell that the sand isn't saturated yet. Should I just wait and then refill? Thanks Much!


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## Oldfishlady

If the water is clear-this usually means you didn't disturb the soil when you added water....which is good....lol....have you planted the plants?


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## imsunflwr1

No... the plan was to fill & drain, fill & drain, til the water was clear. Then drain it down to an inch or 2 and then plant. Should I go ahead and plant now? As alway... thanks so much!


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## imsunflwr1

One thing I just changed... I couldn't figure out how the substrate got to be so deep, then I remembered looking at the sand and thinking, hmmm... thought I had it just right, so I added a bit more till I had 3/4". Now I realized the water was seeping up so it didn't look like 3/4" anymore so I added MORE!!! It's hard to tell with dirt and black sand so I took a flashlight and I had wayyyyyyyyyy to much sand! Gawd... sometimes I scare myself! Think I should start a journal and name it NPT for Dummies! LOL! Tomorrow I'll drain, refill, drain, then plant! :-D


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## Oldfishlady

imsunflwr1 said:


> No... the plan was to fill & drain, fill & drain, til the water was clear. Then drain it down to an inch or 2 and then plant. Should I go ahead and plant now? As alway... thanks so much!


I would go ahead and plant
I wouldn't make the back to back water changes unless needed...If the water is clear-no need for the water changes.


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## MonteCarlo

I just started up my NPT yesterday (ill post pics soon), but I have tiny bubbles in the tank? Not sure why i have these bubbles, and they float to the top every now and then.

Also, do the florescent lights heat up the water of your tank? Like, do you have to adjust your heater for it or idk

Ugh, one last question. I'm waiting till next week to put the live stock in. Should I somehow fertilize the plants since there are no livestock? I'd rather not buy ferts just for a few days, so would adding in algae wafers or fish food work until I get my livestock? Or is it not needed


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## Oldfishlady

The nutrients in the soil should be enough to feed the plants.

By tiny bubbles-do you mean tiny bubbles on the surface areas or do you mean bubbles coming up from the substrate-Both can be normal for new setups and its not uncommon for the soil to burp on occasion years down the road-as long as it doesn't smell like rotten eggs...its fine...

Florescent light can heat the water some-but usually not that much-My tanks are all open top...well, except for a couple and the lights don't seem to alter the temp by much. IME the room temp has more of an impact on water temps.

Look forward to seeing/reading the new thread you start on your natural planted tank with pics, more info and progress....


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## MonteCarlo

The tiny bubbles i think are just on the surface. Theyre on my walls and decor/plants. I did a ~40% water change, and the bubbles barely formed back on the "cleaned" top parts of the tank, but they still formed at least a little visibly

And I have a closed hood with the bulbs inside, i hover my hand over it and it does feel pretty warm. I feel as if it does heat the water a degree (or two even), either that or i have to keep playing with my heater since it doesn't work that well at least yet, and ive been doing this all day. (50 watts for my 10gal)


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## MonteCarlo

^bubbles went away over the second night  and the temp seems to be a steady 79 now after playing with the heater


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## Sagat

Ok, I finally decided to go all in and get a 20L tank to set up as an NPT. One question though... 

I'm going to be away from the 21st to the 27th. Would it be better to set it up now and let it sit for 7days with just plants and (hopefully) snails in it, or do I need to be around the first few days to poke the substrate for gas pockets?


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## Oldfishlady

That depends...do you have a timer for the lights so you can stay on at least a 10h/day photoperiod. If so, set it up, plant it-add the snails and if these are the trumpet snail that burrow-no worries about needing to poke the soil-Plus since you won't have any shrimp or fish in the tank-the plants should be fine until you get back- if you did have an anaerobic soil issue.

It is important to have good plant growth from the start-the plants are what can help keep the water and soil safe.


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## Sagat

I do have a timer, but it turns out that my LFS no longer carries MTS. So, it'd be at least a week before I can get any (or a suitable alternative) to put in my tank -- a week I wouldn't be around. I'm worried that without anything, I'd come back to a gas explosion


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## Oldfishlady

I have never set one up without MTS....so I really can't say what would happen or even if you would have a problem with anaerobic soil. I think as long as you start off with a lot of fast growing stem plants-their roots will take care of any oxygen need of the soil within a few days-provided that they take off growing right away. Anaerobic soil can kill some plants....what you would come home to if you did have an anaerobic issue....is a house that smelled like rotten eggs, black soil and dead plants....


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## lillyandquigly

Is it expensive once you have an NPT growing?


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## Nothingness

I think the biggest expenses is setting it up...cost of soil, plants, snails, shrimp ect. Even more $$ if you go with a C02 injection system. Once the tank is established you can prune/propagate as needed and all of a sudden you have more plants then space to keep them.


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## lillyandquigly

thanks


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## Nothingness

there is no need to buy any of the specialty aquatic soils as you can save a ton of cash by buying organic soil from places like home depot. I purchased a 10 lbs bag of miracle gro organic soil and a 40lbs bag of play sand for $15


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## lillyandquigly

I could use my own soil, it's not fertilized.


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## Oldfishlady

IMO/E-Aquarium in general can be as expensive or as low cost that you want to make it. You can get creative and use non-aquarium items-provided that you are fairly sure that they are free of any harmful chemicals. Lots of different ways to reach the same goal IMO.

My soil based systems didn't cost all that much to setup or to maintain. I think my biggest cost was the lights-but even those didn't cost that much. I think I spent roughly $40.00 for the light strips and bulbs for my 75g and 55gal combined. I bought the shop light strips from wal mart and those cost $10.00 each and hold 2 tubes. I buy my light bulbs in the lighting dept-not the aquarium dept since all I need for plants are the correct color temp-that being..."Daylight" 6500k 40w since they are 48in tubes and 20w for the shorter tubes-The 48in cost under $8.00 for a 2 pack-a bit more for the shorter tubes...
So...$20.00 for 2 light strips and $16.00 for 4 light bulbs-total of $36.00. Then the added annual cost of $16.00 for 4 new light bulbs. Since florescent bulbs intensity is lost over time-this cause the color temp to change. The lights still work and we can see it and so can the algae-but the plants can't- to use it for energy and why you need to change the bulbs out every 12 months.

I collect my soil from my yard/pasture to use and that is free, I have used organic potting soil, top soil for the base and play sand, pool filter sand to use for the cap-but these usually are not too expensive and will go a long ways. The 50 pound bag of pool filter sand that cost under $6.00 has lasted a year or so that I used to cap several tanks. Same with the potting soil and top soil.....

I collect and use all kinds of things for my hard scape that I find around my property. Lots of different hardwoods and rocks to use for decorations and to tie moss and ferns to.

Plants for me was a one time investment-I spent about $40.00 and propagated from them. One good thing about live plants...they grow and reproduce....lol....

Then all those extra things-like heaters, thermometers and filters that can vary in cost, however, I don't use filters in all my tanks...that is the plants job on the most part-especially in my 10gal and under size tanks. Right now the only filters I have running are on the 2 big tanks-my 25gal and 20gal's don't have filters running anymore. I have them...just don't use them...lol.....

When you use nutrient rich soil-you usually don't need any ferts or injected CO2-The soil based systems are generally intended to be low tech, however, you can use higher lights, ferts and inject CO2 if that is something you wanted to invest in...Its just not needed on the most part IMO/E. I do have to add some extra Iron on occasion for my sword plants when they start to look tired-but even then it wasn't needed until the setup was near 5 years old and I made my own ferts by using the native red clay in my yard. I would dig up some clay-then roll up some clay balls-let them sit in the sun to dry-then cram them at the base of the sword plants-usually within the week the sword plant would perk and green up-usually sending out a runner or two to boot...lol....

Lots of different ways/methods to setup a tank....you are only limited by your imagination on the most part.....


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## lillyandquigly

thanks OFL!


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## MonteCarlo

I think it's safe to say my tank is crashing. Two of the new plants I got ina package from petco (bacopa and telanthera cardinalis) are dead/dying. Wisteria seems to be dead/dying too. Even the anubia has a dead leaf on it. The ludwigia/anacharis is only stuff really holdin out. I would post a picture, but my tank is perpetually merky/sandy, you would have a hard time making stuff out (another problem I wonder about).

One of the things I attribute this to is probably the wrong color lights. I thought I could get away with the petsmart colormax cfl's, but I bet they're one of the problems. So, I went out to walmart and got two 20watt 6500K CFLs. They both screw in, but I had to remove the metal piece on my hood that usually reflects the backside of the light since it was in the way. My question is, do i start a new? Or do I wait and see what happens with these new lights?

I suggest restarting b/c there is a lot of dirt on my sand from me adding in the newer plants. Either I'm just a terrible planter (which Im sure), or Im not sure, but whenever you try and plant something, its pretty hard to keep the roots down without kicking up a lot of dirt/sand. My nitrates are 0ppm, and yes i shook the tester very well. Ammonia, however, is pretty high. Even after a 30% water change a few days ago, and i have no fish in the tank, just 4 mystery snails. Its about 1.0 ppm. I attribute this to all the dying matter in my tank. I just removed the telanthera cardinalis plant, but some of the debris got around. Could the dirt on top be affecting this too?

Not really sure where I went wrong besides the lights. But i really dislike how sandy/merky my tank is too. Should I start anew, or just see how the light affects the plants now, and make some water changes/remove debris, and maybe get a floating plant finally


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## Oldfishlady

Dang..sorry you are having so must trouble....You might be correct in thinking it is light related...IME...the driving force behind successful plant growth...is the proper color temp light-along with proper planting of aquatic plants, photoperiod and light intensity.....

Usually the soil on top of the cap isn't a problem-I would make water changes until your water is clear, make sure the partition between the plants and light is either removed or really clean for best light penetration to plants.

You might need to start over-especially since most of the plant are dead and now that you have the correct lights. It is also important to start out with enough of the right species of plants from the get-go-otherwise the system can crash.

It not uncommon to never see the nitrate reading in heavy planted tanks-So I wouldn't go by that to tell you cycle stage/completeness. My NPT's that are going on 5 years have never had a nitrate reading and I don't expect to ever see one either.....

Good luck and keep us posted.....


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## MonteCarlo

I think I will start over (why would Aqueon even make lights for plants that aren't really for plants...) , great timing too since now I have to wait till Wednesday and I bet stores are out of stock of everything haha.

The water really wasn't getting any clearer when I did water changes. I did 3 overall in my week n a half span. Im not sure what would change overtime to make it clearer. Is there a chance that the play sand I bought is just not very good? I know that sounds weird, but my tank really has never been clear, even when I didnt disturb it for 3 days+, and have done water changes.


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## Oldfishlady

Anything can happen......I guess.....In the one I just setup with potting soil and pool filter sand cap...was never cloudy. Since it was an experimental tank...I didn't use any filter or made any water changes other than the one I did on start up. It is a 10gal and I don't pre-rinse anything before use either-sadly the dang tank has a leak and I have to tear it down and it is doing so well too....Anyway...sounds like you need to start over or try turning off the filter and see if that helps some....


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## MonteCarlo

When anubias start to die off, do parts of their leaves turn dark green instead of the lighter green they normally are? Im just wondering if this is a normal sign of dying due to ammonia or lack of lighting w/e, or if it could possibly be a disease


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## Oldfishlady

Not really sure...I don't keep Anubias..you might want to post a new thread and ask...sorry...


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## lillyandquigly

If I keep my tank by my window do I need lights?


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## Oldfishlady

That depends....If you live in an area that you get at least 10h of light and what facing window you have-East and West being the best.

I have a few of mine in East facing windows, however, with season changes I still have to supplement light to complete my photoperiod-that being 12h in the warmer months and 10h in the cooler months. I would still recommend having proper lights to use as needed-due to cloudy or short days.


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## lillyandquigly

Ok, thanks OFL


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## MonteCarlo

The only floating plant I can get near me is duckweed, and I guess I gotta ask a simple question, doesn't it soak up the light too much? I understand you could maintain it, but even if its in just a corner of your tank, wouldn't that corner be lacking light?


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## Oldfishlady

If your tank is covered with too much floating plants it can decrease the amount of light to the planted plants, however, 10-20% of the top with floating plants is usually fine and won't hurt.


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## acadialover

Hi OFL !
Tomorrow I will be setting up my 5 gallon. I read that you suggest removing the little plastic thing around the light bulb. In my 5 gallon, that will leave the bulb exposed totally to either water or moisture .... should I be nervous in such a small tank ? At the store I was told that frogbite is illegal in the state of Washington.( invasive plant ) They had no other floating stuff. Any suggestions for other types of floating plant ? (rikea ) ? (sp ) What about little floating swords or something like that ? LOl... I will drive around to several other stores to look today.


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## MonteCarlo

I have heard a poster say that adding an air stone in a filterless NPT tank (such as the one ill create) is helpful to have some kind of water movement. Could stagnant water bring up an issue? A thread below this one highlights cyano bacteria possibly b/c stagnant water/not cleaning substrate enough


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## FishyFishy89

So im actually using actual potting soil like Mircale Grow soil?


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## Sagat

First, thanks OFL for your advice! I now have a 10-day old, dirted 20G long tank that's happily growing with plants that are probably a day out from some dividing and pruning.

As for floating plants, I like water sprites (ceratopteris thalictroides) because of how easy they are to care for and because they grow in the same kind of slow to still-moving water conditions that bettas are typically known for. Two days after I planted my water sprite, it had started sending out new roots.

Salvinia is another good floating plant that is easy to care for and good at absorbing excess nutrients.

As for my light, I also thought about removing the plastic (acrylic) cover, but optically, acrylic doesn't really inhibit the transmission of UV light. In comparison, clean glass hoods absorb about 5% of the light the plants need so it really comes down to how much you want to deal with cleaning them and how much you care about 5% extra growing light.

OFL, one question I have is about filtration. I recall you mentioning that you used your filter for water movement, but I can't remember if you said to use the standard carbon inserts also. It seems like that would filter out all of the things that the plants want, so I only have the sponge in my filter to provide my beneficial bacteria somewhere to grow. 

Did I remember your advice right? A salesperson at Aquarium Adventure told me otherwise and they're supposed to have been through classes before they hit the sales floor, which is making me second guess myself.


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## Oldfishlady

Floating plants that have worked well for my NPT's-water lettuce is my number one-then duckweed, frogbit. 
Hornwort is also a good floater-but it tends to get hair algae due to being too close to my lights. I have never kept water sprite, however, I have heard good things about it.

I have never had any problems with my lights-regarding moisture and I have had my light strips fall in my tanks on more than one occasion and still going strong. They do sell special end caps you can use on lights to prevent moisture issues.

I don't use active carbon/charcoal in any of my tanks-IMO/E it is not needed and it can remove minerals/nutrients that plants need. I do, however, always have fresh carbon on hand for emergencies-for the hopefully rare accidental toxic substance that gets into the tank.

What tanks I do have a filter running-they are for water movement-since in planted tanks-especially soil based will have the BB on/in them-Plus, since the BB are sticky they adhere to all the surface areas-as well as in the top layer of inert substrate.

I also like to limit too much agitation at the surface from filters and airstones-due to gassing off the CO2 that the plants need.

With soil-it is best to use types that don't have any additives-like ferts and water absorbing beads...etc...I have used all kind of soil-from my yard, organic potting soil and top soil.


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## FishyFishy89

I found this under organic potting soil search on home depot
http://m.homedepot.com/p/40-lb-Top-Soil-50055077/100348865/


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## Sagat

This is what I used (and have seen recommended in here and on other websites), also from Home Depot:
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Miracle-Gro-Organic-Choice-32-qt-Potting-Mix-72983650/100619045/

You could use the top soil you found, but I've only seen super-generic topsoil mentioned when people talk about mineralizing their topsoil, which was a process that was alot more complicated and time-consuming than I was interested in. With the MGOCPM, you can just add it to the tank, put your cap on and fill it.


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## FishyFishy89

Oh, I linked the wrong one. I meant this one: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-25e...yword=potting+soil&storeId=10051#.UN99YJXMJdg


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## acadialover

I'm just about to load my dirt into the tank when I see that there are some little white sort of rocks in there besides the little sticks I am sifting out. I got my soil from Lowes and it was the only organic they had. It is Cedar Grove organic potting soil . It is made from compost and has earthworm castings in it.... ARGGG is this ok to use ?? I hope someone answers soon as everything is waiting on me, plants, soil , sand and shrimp snails and Betta !!!


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## acadialover

What are , is MTS ?


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## BettAsha

Just wondering as far as cleaning the substrate what do you do? This will be my first NPT and I wasn't sure. Also would you recommend filtering my 5 gallon NPT it's been cycling for about 2 weeks now. No fish yet because I have yet to go to the store.


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## Sagat

MTS are Malaysian Trumpet Snails

Unfortunately, I don't have answers for any of your other questions except that my MGOCPM had tiny wood chips in it as well, but it's the specific brand everyone seems to prefer when starting a planted tank with just potting mix and pool filter sand.


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## acadialover

Thanks Sagat. I am in the 4 water change. first one I didn't put enough sand over the soil and I DID have mud. Emptied all that out, and started over. Now doing 4 one and water is just about clear. Plants next..... IT is time consuming at first but will be worth it I know.


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## Oldfishlady

Depending on what the compost base is to start with...sometimes they use pine needles and that can sometimes get toxic-the worm casting can sometimes leach into the water column and cause algae issue-personally, I would try it myself since I like to experiment with different things. As for the white things-that might be perilite or vermiculit or however you spell that and generally it is not a problem per se'. I have a couple of tank that have it and the only problem I have had is....its ugly and it floats when disturbed every time I pull a plant-easy to take care of with a net. One tank that has it is going on 5 years old and doing fine.

You don't want or need to clean the substrate on a regular bases-with the soil based systems, it is important to allow some of this mulm to buildup and breakdown so the plants can use it for food. Once the tank is stable-you also don't want to make too many water changes and upset the balance either.


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## lillyandquigly

when would the tank be considered stable?


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## Oldfishlady

That is hard to say since they can all be different, however, one of the ways I judge mine-is by plant growth and how often and how many trims I need to make.
Usually it will take about 3 months more or less for the soil to mature and start its life underwater to contain/create all the needed bacteria/pathogens/nematodes...etc...Its all that awesome bacteria that break down everything so the plants can use it and once the plants are thriving-they become the filter/bio-filter.

I don't always go by the numbers-since the active plant growth will take care of a lot of stuff in the system-usually it will take a long time if every to see a nitrate reading anyway due to the plants. Your pH can vary based on decomp of organic matter and vary at different times of the day due to photosynthesis. You should never see ammonia or nitrite unless it is related to skewed results from additives, pH, KH/GH-unless the tank is overstocked or plants are not doing well or even too large/many water changes that upset the balance. Too many factors that can vary test results and sometimes the best way to know is by the behavior of the livestock and plants....


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## FishyFishy89

Lets say you purchased everything; you have the sand, soil, plants and possibly some driftwood/smooth stones as your decor. Once you place everything in/fill the tank, is it safe to add the fish right then and there? Or should your tank run for a certain amount of time?


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## lillyandquigly

thanks Ofl!


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## Oldfishlady

I set mine up and add all my livestock the same day-Fish, shrimp and snails are standard for me to add to all my NPT's. As long as you set it up correctly and started with enough of the right species of plants and have the correct lights to support good plant growth-its usually safe....I have never lost any livestock..


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## acadialover

Thanks OFL. 
I am really excited about my new soil tanks. If I can figure out how to upload a photo rom my galaxy phone, I will !! Thanks for all your help This thread is wonderful and has set me off on anew adventure , after only having regular planted tanks for years.


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## FishyFishy89

acadialover said:


> Thanks OFL.
> I am really excited about my new soil tanks. If I can figure out how to upload a photo rom my galaxy phone, I will !! Thanks for all your help This thread is wonderful and has set me off on anew adventure , after only having regular planted tanks for years.


I use photobucket on my galaxy s 3. All my photos auto upload there and i can use the image code in here.


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## JAGalletta

This may be silly, but -- can you use an under-gravel filter with soil capped by sand as mentioned by this sticky?


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## Sagat

I've read that undergravel filters are a no-no when it comes to planted tanks, especially dirted ones. The UGF pulls things through the soil substrate and then bubbles it up into the air which can lead to depletion of the nutrients somehow.

The UGF also ends up being a huge pain in the butt when the roots grow into it.


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## FishyFishy89

I agree, I wouldn't use under gravel filters. I've always said, "there's a reason why they're called 'under gravel filters'. "


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## Oldfishlady

JAGalletta said:


> This may be silly, but -- can you use an under-gravel filter with soil capped by sand as mentioned by this sticky?


You generally don't want to use UGF for rooted plants at all-due to the plant roots can impede the proper function of the UGF-as well as hinder nutrients to the plants-In other words-UGF would be worthless in planted tanks with or without dirt.


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## MonteCarlo

adding dirt/cap into my 10g tank, and ive been wondering how much water you put in after you put the dirt down. You already said just enough to cover the dirt (someone else told me this is called a 'slurry'), but Im not entirely sure what that means. I thought it meant enough so that the dirt is soaked (so no air pockets) and a very thin layer of water is over the dirt. So i put in at least 10 cups of water to get this slurry effect (which i suspect might be too much). Problem is, when I went to add in my petco sand, it seemed to have sank into the slurry, not cap it. My petco sand is not as fine as play/filter sand, and it is also wet from me rinsing it, so it has a little weight on it. I stopped trying to add it once a little of it sank and left it to try overnight, just wondering if I should start over and not waste this sand since it might all just get swallowed in the slurry, or if that is normal and once I add it itll cap it


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## Sagat

A slurry basically has the consistency of a thick milkshake, or concrete. When I put my dirt in, I had very little water sitting on top of it -- Basically just enough water that I could poke my finger in it and make holes, but not so much that it filled up all the way with water.

Whenever I added too much water, I just threw more dirt on it to thicken it up. Unfortunately, that meant I had soil that was more than 1" in places, but hopefully that won't cause me any problems in the long run.


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## acadialover

I put in just enough to cover the dirt. first time I mis read OFL post and didn't put enough sand... made a mucky mess when I added the water. threw it all out, and started over. About an inch or so of soil, barely cover with water, then use PETCO black sand about a half inch or maybe a wee bit more. Pour in water very slowly, wait about 5 then siphon . I did this three times. clear water, thene added plants and livestock.


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## acadialover

OFL, I am on day three and my 5 cherry shrimp have been eaten I believe. What do you suggest I do. Everything else looking great. Also what is the best temp for them ?


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## MonteCarlo

Sagat - I thought the purpose was to prevent air pockets, so doesn't that mean that your dirt should all be wet? As in, put enough water so that the dirt is filled and nothing dry. I may have put a little too much...

Acadia - I also have the petco black sand. Did you rinse yours? I did and it seems to be a bit heavy/clumpy when wet, which might be causing the sinking issue.

I guess my issue is I don't really understand when you guys says "just enough to cover the soil". Does that (1) mean just enough (like a few cups) to get the top part of the soil moist? 
Or does that (2) mean put enough so that the soil is totally soaked, and there is a tiny layer of water on top of the soil


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## Sagat

That's correct. When I say enough to cover the soil, I mean that it's muddy but has very little standing water (like, 1/8"). Moist is probably the wrong description.

Here's a picture from my tank right before I stupidly put water in it (without a cap). You can kinda see in the back where the soil splashed up against the tank like sludge. 

The area circled in red actually has standing water in it, as it's kind of a trough. I'd guess there's probably 1/4" to 1/2" of standing water in there.


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## acadialover

I didn't rinse mine, because OFL said she didn't ! ha ! so I wet mine totally. I poured very slowly water in till it JUST covered the soil . I kinda stuck my finger in it in different places to make sure it was wet. I am doing a 5 gallon. so I used one of the bags of black sand they have. AFTER i'd done it I read the instructions (dud ) and saw it said to rinse. I wish I had because there was some fine stuff that just floats. I pretty much netted it out. I do have a bunch of floaters, silvina and maybe frogbit . I didn't get the mystery snails because I don't really want a whole bunch in my tank. However, the chopstick stuff is getting old ... the sand looks really cool , and i have a white crown tail. I'm still up if you have any questions.


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## Hopelessaddict101

Can you replace silica sand with the soil? or should I just use soil?
And, also, could I have a filter one if it is a top filter? With a baffle?

- Thanks! x


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## Sagat

I thought pool filter sand as all silica sand, but of you mean replacing the soil with a traditional substrate, I think that can work but I haven't done much reasarch on it. 

I have a top filter (you'll frequently see it abbreviated as HOB), but OFL suggested not putting the charcoal in. 

I had to buy some NLS food today, so I ordered a copy of Diana Walstad's book, _The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_, yay!


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## JAGalletta

Is this a good choice for soil?


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## Oldfishlady

Sagat, I love my Walstad book...I think I have read it about 20 times along with notes written in the margins when I talk with her to clear something up that I don't understand...Its pretty deep scientific based book-but well written IMO.

I cover my soil layer with just enough water to cover so when I add my dry sand-it kinda soaks it up-Then I fill the tank half way with water-then siphon most of that off so I can plant-Note-that I do this different depending on the size of tank too-Not really a right or wrong way per se-these are just general directions. Once planted and scape-I fill-siphon-fill...etc...sometimes I may need to do this 3 or 4 times and sometimes only once-Your goal is clear water for good light penetration to the plants. I don't stress over a bit of soil on top of the sand or soil that floats in the water column-I will get that later if needed.

If you need to use dechlorinator in your water-you don't have to use it if you need to make some back to back water changes when you first set it up-since you don't have livestock in the tank yet-plants will be fine. Just remember to add the proper amount on your finial fill.

It can take weeks-months for the soil to start its life underwater-It should be water logged in a day or so. It is not uncommon and even expected to see the soil "Burp" on occasion-this is normal and nothing to worry about as long as it doesn't smell like rotten eggs.

Filters-they are fine-be sure and place the HOB before you scape and if you plan to use a lid-make sure everything fits right-I learned the hard way...lol...had to tear one down and I had to cut the intake tube on one because it was too long. Be sure and place a hard scape item under the overflow so you don't get too much kick up on the sand-especially in the smaller tanks-plants will work too. Its a good idea to do a dry placement of everything before you start IMO/E. I do it once I add my soil-before I wet it-If I am using a wide base item-like a big rock or driftwood-I sometimes will place it before I add dirt or when I add half the dirt so it sits better in the tank and less chance of the soil going anaerobic under it-especially if I am going to use more than 3 inches total dirt/sand.
Nothing wrong with using filter-I don't in a lot of my tanks-but this is a personal choice-HOB, canisters and sponge filter all will be fine. Sometimes I will start with one and remove it later.

Sorry about your shrimp acadialover, however, you might be surprised and find them later. I keep my shrimp in the same temp that I keep my Bettas...about 76F more or less...

JAGalletta-that soil should be fine-I don't see any additives-be sure and either sift or pick though the soil to remove any large piece of organic matter


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## Hopelessaddict101

Thank you


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## acadialover

Thanks for the post. OFL . I am reading all the stuff on line about the Walstad method.
Well, I don't think they are hiding anymore.... boo hoo. I am worried about some plant matter that is on the bottom. If I have no shrimp ? I have two common snails in the tank.
I've also noted that originally my temp may have been too high..... close to 80. Seems my small bronze wendetti (sp ) leaves sort of melted a little 
. Everything else looks good except both of those plants.


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## Oldfishlady

Your temp should have been fine-its within range and its not uncommon for crypts to melt when moved or going from emersed-submersed leaf change-just be sure the crown is slightly above the substrate line-better to plant rosette too shallow than too deep.


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## acadialover

Ok !!


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## Sagat

OFL, you mention it can take up to 3 months for the tank to establish. What kinds of things should we expect to see in that three months?

So far, I've seen this in the first 3 weeks:

*Stem plants*


Leaf die-off as leaves ill-adapted for current tank conditions die off
New growth, as the plant develops new leaves
Occassional floaters, as ill-planted or jostled stems get dislodged. (I seem to find myself replanting stems every few days for the first week)
*Rosettes*

Die-off of ill-adapted leaves... ESPECIALLY crypts
Slow growth, overall
Potentially needing to split off child plants, for rosettes placed in optimal locations
*Floating plants*


Fast growth/multiplication
Fast root growth
Some pruning/replanting
Java moss and ferns growing root systems.
*Other *things I've observed, but aren't sure are normal:


Algae growth!
Tannins, tannins, tannins... After 3 weeks of not changing the water, I finally gave in and did a 5% water change. I'd read that excessive tannins could affect light getting to the plants, so hopefully the new water will help.
Leaves simultaneously turning transparent and yellow


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## lillyandquigly

How do you trim sowrdplants? Specifically Amazon ruffled sword plant? My friend really needs to know quick


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## acadialover

I have neen doing a small water only change every three days. so far so good.


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## Oldfishlady

The way I trim sword plants and crypts-I pinch the dead/dieing leaves as close to the crown that I can and with some-I will pinch healthy large leaves or leaves that are shading other plants to keep them looking tidy. With the sag and vals-I pinch them about mid-way when they get too long-I have some that get over 5ft and shade lower plants-I rarely have dead/dieing leaves on the sags and vals-but if I did I would pinch them as close to the crown that I could.

In my NPT's-I don't have stem plants that uproot-you might be cleaning too much. I rarely have any death or melt with any species-but that might be due to all my plants being grown submersed and adapted to my water already. I haven't bought any new plants in well over 5 years or longer...

I usually will not have any yellowing-but I will have leaf drop on the stem plants if they don't get enough light to the lower stem area-this is expected-As long as the stem of the plant is healthy it might be light related.

Usually, on my new setups-I will need to trim plants within the first 7-10 days and this tells me that the soil is good. While you do need to make some water changes-you don't want to make too many or vacuum the substrate and disrupt the roots-especially if the tank is only stocked with a single Betta and some shrimp/snails-more water changes might be needed in the beginning with higher fish load.

Some of that mulm and rotting leaves are needed to break down in the tank. As they break down-the nutrients are then available for the plants to use-as well as this decomp creates natural CO2 for the plants-The CO2 is one of the most limited nutrients and most needed by plants for best growth.
As for the tannin released-I have not found the weak tea/yellow colored water to hinder plant growth, however, in my tanks-to look at them you wouldn't know the water was yellow due to tannins unless you had it in a clear glass.
From the outside the water should look clear but you don't want the tank to be crystal clean. This is often one of the hardest part for some hobbyist to accept-a bit untidy or dirty looking substrate-All that mulm/debris play an important role with the balance of these type of systems.

The algae, some species of algae is expect and normal in a container of water. It can be a sign of a healthy system, it can help the tank look more natural by softening edges and it provides a place for microorganisms to colonize that help the overall health of the system. With that said, the algae should also be limited, especially in a properly setup soil based system. With good plant growth and soil alive with bacteria-this should out compete the algae-but you will still have some green algae and you want that growing on the non-viewing back wall. If you have a lot of algae-especially other than green algae-the tank is not balanced and this is usually light related or due to not enough plants with good plant growth in the soil based systems.


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## acadialover

Love your explanations. Thanks.


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## Sagat

Oldfishlady said:


> In my NPT's-I don't have stem plants that uproot-you might be cleaning too much.
> 
> While you do need to make some water changes-you don't want to make too many or vacuum the substrate and disrupt the roots
> 
> As for the tannin released-I have not found the weak tea/yellow colored water to hinder plant growth, however, in my tanks-to look at them you wouldn't know the water was yellow due to tannins unless you had it in a clear glass.
> From the outside the water should look clear but you don't want the tank to be crystal clean. This is often one of the hardest part for some hobbyist to accept-a bit untidy or dirty looking substrate-All that mulm/debris play an important role with the balance of these type of systems.


Mostly, my problems are exclusively with stems that I made cuttings of (wisteria and narrow leaf elodea). I've isolated the cause to a combination of fat fingers and planting the cuttings near my HOB filter. Even with a baffle, it seems there's just enough water flow to cause them to occassionally pop up.

As for water changes, I never did water changes to clarify the water after I filled the tank -- I just skimmed floaters and ran the filter. I'm also fairly sure my driftwood is discoloring the water pretty heavily. I did a 5% change yesterday and afterwards, it turns out that my plants weren't as sickly yellow as I originally thought.

Can I get away with a 5% change before my Walstad book show up on Thurs or should I do another, bigger change? I'm afraid of changing the water and depleting beneficial things in it.


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## acadialover

Hmn, my water isn't dark at all. I have done three 5 % water changes in a seek. Everyone seems to be dong fine, and except for one of my smaller bronze wendetis(sp ) melting in leaves, everyone else is dong fine. In fact one of my wisteria has grown and is now shooting out of the water..... I will attempt to upload a photo soon.


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## Nothingness

I am about ready to plant my NPT and i was wondering should I cap the soil before I plant or plant first then cap?


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## JAGalletta

Nothingness said:


> I am about ready to plant my NPT and i was wondering should I cap the soil before I plant or plant first then cap?


I capped first then planted with about 3-5 inches of water above the cap. I hold the plants by the base and wiggle them through the sand into the soil unless, of course, the base is to remain exposed, I'll wiggle just the roots in with my fingertips. A small amount of soil _may_ float up while doing this, but it will either settle back to the bottom or float to the top of the tank. If it floats, skim it out with your net, and if it sinks, you can remove it using a gravel vac in one hand while stirring up the unwanted debris with the other hand as to keep the sand cap in place (do not try to vacuum it directly off the top of the sand, because you'll take the sand too).

I chose to leave the sunk debris on top of my sand for now (I set this tank up Saturday) - it doesn't bother anything, but during my next water change, I plan on using the method I just described to get my cap looking nice and clean. OFL suggests only vacuuming one part of the cap at a time (mentally divide the tank floor in sections according to your tank size) so the mulm (fish poo/plant debris/uneaten food) has a chance to provide nutrients for the soil. 

If you're going for a super clean look for your cap, you can plant before you cap, but be careful not to allow the weight of the plants leaves to strain the plants too much, and be careful with plants whose bases are to remain exposed to the water - you should plant these after capping. Having the extra 3-5 inches of water in the tank will prevent the plants from weighing themselves down.


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## Nothingness

awesome thanks..... I am very excited to get this tank planted up. Its been sitting with just soil in it for the past 2 weeks while I prepare and plan my plant situation out. Really I am waiting for my driftwood pieces to sink on their own. 3/5 are sunk but im getting impaitent and I am going to weigh the others down with rock so I can get this party started


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## Oldfishlady

I have done it both ways-but I like to cap then plant best

Sagat-I have never had much luck with the elodea species in my NPT.
Another way you can plant the bare stem-is to place a large rock or item on the end and allow it to anchor itself-then remove the rock. I have to do this with some of mine in tight spots. 

Once the soil mature you usually will not have any problems with the soil staying in the water column after you pull or plant. When I pull or plant-what soil goes into the water column will settle within 5min or less and you can't tell that I disturbed the soil-even with it laying on top of the sand cap with fairly strong filter running. I have to pull up at least 20-30 crypts with massive root systems at lest monthly and I will have a cloud of black to the point you can't see in the tank for about 5min. I do have to go in and brush the soil off the leaves-but the water is clear-then I will use a plastic cup with dry sand-lower it in and cover the hole I made-all while being bitten by all the Bettas...lol....still freaks me out and I jump...lol...

With some of my driftwood that I collect out in my woods-I never could get it to sink and had to tape big rocks to them. I use that black electric tape-never has caused any problems.

Light yellow tea colored water shouldn't cause too much of an issue once the tank is matured. I would make 25-50% water only changes on occasion to clear it up if needed. You can remove all the water and be fine-you want to limit the amount of mulm/debris you remove-don't over vacuum or over clean-Water only won't hurt anything-plus, with the fresh water you will add nutrient, minerals, CO2 and electrolytes that are in your tap water-plants really like this..


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## Olivebelle

I have the six gallon fluval edge aquarium with halogen lights- I have heard I can replace the lights with LED. Would LED work for a natural planted tank with soil? I currently have plants with gravel with my halogen lights and they looked healthy the first nine months but look like they're dying now. I'm wondering if its contributing to my recent green algae overgrowth too.


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## acadialover

I was told no. I have a 3 gallon with led and the anubius is ok, barley


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## FishyFishy89

I've heard of SEVERAL people having success using LEDs with planted aquariums. I say if you can afford it and don't mind giving it a try, go for it. Just don't add any fish unless you know for sure your plants are thriving well under the LEDs.


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## JAGalletta

FishyFishy89 said:


> I've heard of SEVERAL people having success using LEDs with planted aquariums. I say if you can afford it and don't mind giving it a try, go for it. Just don't add any fish unless you know for sure your plants are thriving well under the LEDs.


Let me add a few cents to this...

LED lighting creates several concerns when it comes to plants:

Color temperature - Always check the output color temperature rating (K value) of the bulbs. Several color bulbs may be required to fulfil the entire spectrum needs of your plants.
Actual wattage of light output as opposed to wattage of electricity used. This may sound confusing, but be aware that the wattage on an LED bulb is (IMO/E) not directly converted to traditional wattage as from an incandescent bulb or a fluorescent tube. Make sure you provide ample light output for your plants. I go by wattage of electricity being used because of the various qualities of LED light that may skew the perceived wattage of output. e.g. We all know those "super bright" single bulb led flashlights only seem very bright because of the color of the light. Actual light output value in terms of what the plant would receive from the bulb is most likely lower than what you may perceive it to be.

However, I had a coworker once who grew plants under his desk at work. He built his own LED array for the vines to grow on, but one thing he did was to vary the color of the led lights in a rainbow-like progression from red to orange, yellow, blue, green, purple, etc. I think this color changing effect he created accounted for his success in providing adequate lighting conditions for his plants.

There are several led hood setups designed for aquariums, but whether they were designed with plants in mind is a different question. Make sure to check outputs and color temps, and if you do spring to buy one, I'd suggest testing it on another tank before relying on it to keep your NPT healthy.

You may need to fact-check some of this wattage information with some sort of scientist (aka Google) to make sure that I'm right, but this is the general understanding I've come to have over time.


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## FishyFishy89

Most of whom I've seen who successfully used the LEDs did use varying LED colors. One recent person I saw his progression with the plants used a blue, white, blue, white variation for his lights. He was also using these lights for low light plants.


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## Oldfishlady

Olivebelle said:


> I have the six gallon fluval edge aquarium with halogen lights- I have heard I can replace the lights with LED. Would LED work for a natural planted tank with soil? I currently have plants with gravel with my halogen lights and they looked healthy the first nine months but look like they're dying now. I'm wondering if its contributing to my recent green algae overgrowth too.


I have never personally tried the LED light for a soil based planted tank. From the research I have done, there are some LED light that will meet the needs of aquatic plants-but-boy-O-boy are they expensive. If I could afford some LED lights rated for aquatic plants I would give them a try-If anything to experiment....

If you want to use LED's-I would recommend that you do a lot of research and find the proper LED lights for aquatic plants if you plan to setup a soil based planted system, otherwise the regular LED may not provide enough of the right color temp for plant photosynthesis-with that said, they might work with regular inert substrate with the lower light plants-like-ferns, moss, anubias and some crypts.

And yes, a lot of algae problems are related to the wrong color temp lights, old light bulbs, too short/too long photoperiod, too high watts, plants to close to the light source, poor plant growth that in turn causes high nutrient load as they break down....Proper lights and balance is the key factor in good plant growth that can out compete algae growth.


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## carbonxxkidd

Not sure if this has been asked already but is it possible to start a NPT without using floating plants? Or would it be better to wait until I have a source for floaters before I start one?


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## Oldfishlady

You can start one without floating plants, however, I would be careful with stocking in the beginning-Once the tank is mature and stem plants thriving-you could finish your stocking.


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## mellotune

Do you plant when you put down the dirt or when you put down the cap?


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## Sagat

I planted after I put the cap down, but in retrospect, I'm wondering if my stems would have stayed down better if I had planted them after the dirt.

I had a problem where I couldn't get the roots embedded deeply enough for some stems and all bets were off when I tried to plant a stem clipping... Those suckers always would come right out because they had no root structure to hold them down, though I'm starting to suspect my MTS caused them to pop out by digging under/around them.


----------



## MonteCarlo

I touched on this earlier but have revised my question. I know you said mature plants with roots will oxygenate the soil, but what about the water itself? There are some fish I'm looking at (not bettas) that prefer water movement since they like well oxygenated water (oto catfish for one, even my white cloud minnows were recommended water movement). Are these fish simply not suited for a mature 10gal NPT that does not have a filter? Do the plants oxygenate the water well?


----------



## Sagat

I haven't had or seen any oxygen problems with my quartet of otos

I *have* noticed they have a strong preference for any sources of water motion in the tank, which means they spend a lot of time hanging out under the HOB filter or near the airstone (when I had it running). The airstone's been turned off, for fear of aerating out the CO2 in the water


----------



## Mal72

Oldfishlady said:


> You can start one without floating plants, however, I would be careful with stocking in the beginning-Once the tank is mature and stem plants thriving-you could finish your stocking.


 Is it necessary to use a product like Seachem Stability in an NPT?

^I was just curious

And I personally do not have much luck with LEDs. I splurged on one and it did not do much good. Back it went! I'm wondering if indirect sunlight would be a better environment for the plants.


----------



## Oldfishlady

Mal-no, you don't need to use the bottled bacteria for soil based systems-the soil and plants have all of that already. I don't know much about LED lights-other than what I have researched and from what I have found the standard LED will not provide the needed color temp for plant growth, however, they do sell LED's for plants-but they are expensive. I have several tanks that get direct and indirect sunlight from a East facing window as part of their light source-but I do supplement it due to needing to keep them on 10-12/hr/day PP-plus cloudy days. But direct and indirect sunlight is considered part of the natural planted tank lighting.

mellotune-I have done it both ways, but I like the soil then cap then plant better-less mess...I rarely have had any problems with my bare stem staying in place-but when I do, I will use a rock or something to temporary hold the stem in place until it anchors itself. When I plant my stems-I cram them in the substrate with my fingers-while I rake a small amount of the soil/sand-up and around the stem. I have also use a small handful of gravel around the base after I crammed them in the dirt.

MonteCarlo-Plants produce oxygen as a byproduct, however, depending on the number, species and growth state of the plant-as well as tank size and stocking-the plants might produce enough oxygen, however, when you have a lot of gill breathing fish-adding either a filter or airstone might be in their best interest. Watch the fish and if you see them gasping at the surface-you might not have enough dissolved oxygen in the water. Some fish need that water movement to thrive. I have used a power head and placed it mid level in the tank to provide water movement without any problems for the plants.


----------



## Mal72

Oldfishlady said:


> Mal-no, you don't need to use the bottled bacteria for soil based systems-the soil and plants have all of that already. I don't know much about LED lights-other than what I have researched and from what I have found the standard LED will not provide the needed color temp for plant growth, however, they do sell LED's for plants-but they are expensive. I have several tanks that get direct and indirect sunlight from a East facing window as part of their light source-but I do supplement it due to needing to keep them on 10-12/hr/day PP-plus cloudy days. But direct and indirect sunlight is considered part of the natural planted tank lighting.
> 
> mellotune-I have done it both ways, but I like the soil then cap then plant better-less mess...I rarely have had any problems with my bare stem staying in place-but when I do, I will use a rock or something to temporary hold the stem in place until it anchors itself. When I plant my stems-I cram them in the substrate with my fingers-while I rake a small amount of the soil/sand-up and around the stem. I have also use a small handful of gravel around the base after I crammed them in the dirt.
> 
> MonteCarlo-Plants produce oxygen as a byproduct, however, depending on the number, species and growth state of the plant-as well as tank size and stocking-the plants might produce enough oxygen, however, when you have a lot of gill breathing fish-adding either a filter or airstone might be in their best interest. Watch the fish and if you see them gasping at the surface-you might not have enough dissolved oxygen in the water. Some fish need that water movement to thrive. I have used a power head and placed it mid level in the tank to provide water movement without any problems for the plants.


Okay, I'm going to the hardware store to get some Organic soil--since my soil has way too much sand in it (live by the beach), so I'll look for lighting there. Thanks OFL.


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## Juicebox

2 questions here for you oldfishlady,hopefully you could help me..

1 

im not liking the colour of the play sand,its just not for me, i hate when some dirt comes up though it and sits on top of the sand, i hate seeing all the poop on the sand and other messy stuff.. im lookin for a black coloured cheap substrate that will do a good job. can you recomend anything that will be as cheap as the play sand? i do have some gravel in my house,enough to cap and its black but its a large gravel,its from petco, i think it would be too large to cap with,maybe the dirt would float up through it when i do cleanings and move plants around,id prob need 2 inches or more of the gravel cap to make sure the dirt stays under.. should i just use this gravel for other tanks without dirt..i do like the look of sand i think id prefer a black sand cap over gravel but im not opposed to a gravel type cap if the grains are really small

2

ive noticed that alot of poop will sit on top of the sand,so i tend to do alittle vacum every 3 days to get most of the poop out,i think this might be bad as the plants need the poop, but with a sand cap the poop does not get down into the dirt layer,it just sits on top of the sand,how does the dirt and plants access this poop?would it not be better to go with a gravel or a less compact cap so the poop can fall through and settle in the dirt later??

which also leads to another question,any benefits between using a sand cap or a gravel cap?


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## acadialover

Juicebox said:


> 2 questions here for you oldfishlady,hopefully you could help me..
> 
> 1
> 
> im not liking the colour of the play sand,its just not for me, i hate when some dirt comes up though it and sits on top of the sand, i hate seeing all the poop on the sand and other messy stuff.. im lookin for a black coloured cheap substrate that will do a good job. can you recomend anything that will be as cheap as the play sand? i do have some gravel in my house,enough to cap and its black but its a large gravel,its from petco, i think it would be too large to cap with,maybe the dirt would float up through it when i do cleanings and move plants around,id prob need 2 inches or more of the gravel cap to make sure the dirt stays under.. should i just use this gravel for other tanks without dirt..i do like the look of sand i think id prefer a black sand cap over gravel but im not opposed to a gravel type cap if the grains are really small
> 
> 2
> 
> ive noticed that alot of poop will sit on top of the sand,so i tend to do alittle vacum every 3 days to get most of the poop out,i think this might be bad as the plants need the poop, but with a sand cap the poop does not get down into the dirt layer,it just sits on top of the sand,how does the dirt and plants access this poop?would it not be better to go with a gravel or a less compact cap so the poop can fall through and settle in the dirt later??
> 
> which also leads to another question,any benefits between using a sand cap or a gravel cap?


I used the black sand from Petco on top of my dirt. IT looks fantastic and I don't really have allot of mulm.... I also have snails and a coupl shrimp


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## Oldfishlady

The debris is one of the hardest things to get used to with the soil based natural systems...lol....That urge to keep it clean visually is tough, however, you really need to try and leave it and allow it to start to break down so the plants can use it-plus the natural decomp creates CO2. If you have trumpet snails-they will help to a degree in mixing the debris into the soil and if you don't have MTS and are poking the soil instead-this can help to get the debris mixed in some too. The debris has to break down before the plants can use it. You have to be careful with over cleaning-especially in a soil based planted tank or you can risk upsetting the balance. Soon, as the plants fill in-you won't be able to see the floor and any debris buildup.

As for cheap black sand....I have no idea, the only black sand I have used was an aquarium specific sand, however, I have seen different colored sand as well as black sand in the plant dept at either home depot or Lowes (_I get them mixed up..lol.._) that is used for cacti and orchids. I found and used some dark brown sand in one of my NPT's. With that said, as the tank matures the sand usually will change colors anyway-both the playsand and pool filter sand are much darker than when I first used it-it get dingy over time.

You can use small diameter gravel instead of sand for the cap-I used it with a couple of mine-plus I sometimes will use handfuls of it around some plants to either hold them down or to give a different texture contrast.

Once the soil is mature and starts its life underwater-it shouldn't float-once water logged it should stay in place and if it does get into the water column-it should clear or settle within a few min.-In one of my 1gals-I don't have any cap at all-just dirt-but its also about 3-4 years old-This is the tank that was knocked over and when I put it back together the sand mixed into the soil and I didn't bother to add more. The soil doesn't move unless disturbed and even then it will settle back down within seconds. Even in my big tanks that I have a couple of Empera 400 filters running-I pull mass amounts of plants and the water will be so dark you can't see in the tank for about 5min-then clear once the soil settles.


----------



## Sagat

I looked into black sands alot when I started with my tank. One thing to know is that sands can have mineral contents that can change the mineral content of your water. Most of the black substrates I could find were made out of some kind of lava rock or dyed and Seachem at least has nicely available information on their different products.

Pool filter sand is completely inert, as far as I've been able to research it. In the end, it ended up being more of a headache than I wanted to tackle for my first tank. 

I've come to really like the look of all the little wood chips resting on top of my sand cap, to the point where I'm wondering how to make my next tank soil + wood chips --on the bottom, as opposed to floating on top!


----------



## Mal72

Oldfishlady said:


> The debris is one of the hardest things to get used to with the soil based natural systems...lol....That urge to keep it clean visually is tough, however, you really need to try and leave it and allow it to start to break down so the plants can use it-plus the natural decomp creates CO2. If you have trumpet snails-they will help to a degree in mixing the debris into the soil and if you don't have MTS and are poking the soil instead-this can help to get the debris mixed in some too. The debris has to break down before the plants can use it. You have to be careful with over cleaning-especially in a soil based planted tank or you can risk upsetting the balance. Soon, as the plants fill in-you won't be able to see the floor and any debris buildup.
> 
> As for cheap black sand....I have no idea, the only black sand I have used was an aquarium specific sand, however, I have seen different colored sand as well as black sand in the plant dept at either home depot or Lowes (_I get them mixed up..lol.._) that is used for cacti and orchids. I found and used some dark brown sand in one of my NPT's. With that said, as the tank matures the sand usually will change colors anyway-both the playsand and pool filter sand are much darker than when I first used it-it get dingy over time.
> 
> You can use small diameter gravel instead of sand for the cap-I used it with a couple of mine-plus I sometimes will use handfuls of it around some plants to either hold them down or to give a different texture contrast.
> 
> Once the soil is mature and starts its life underwater-it shouldn't float-once water logged it should stay in place and if it does get into the water column-it should clear or settle within a few min.-In one of my 1gals-I don't have any cap at all-just dirt-but its also about 3-4 years old-This is the tank that was knocked over and when I put it back together the sand mixed into the soil and I didn't bother to add more. The soil doesn't move unless disturbed and even then it will settle back down within seconds. Even in my big tanks that I have a couple of Empera 400 filters running-I pull mass amounts of plants and the water will be so dark you can't see in the tank for about 5min-then clear once the soil settles.


OFL, I set up my NPT and everything looks well--except for the fact that the water is still cloudy from the dirt/substrate. No fish in there yet, but the PH levels, temperature, etc are all looking good. I have a light (I'll probably switch to a plant light soon) and a sponge filter, but I can't seem to get a definitive answer on whether or not a filter is needed in an NPT. The only reason I ask if because the filter was in one of the boys tank and he hated it--even though it is pretty quiet and he'll be going back into this tank now that it is NPT. (It's a divided 10 gallon).


----------



## Oldfishlady

I use filters on start up sometimes then remove them later and sometimes I don't use one at all....Not really a right or wrong answer to filter or not...With that said, in larger tanks-over 40gal...the water movement might be needed for nutrient transport-but you don't want or need a lot of water agitation at the surface since that can drive off the CO2.


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## Mal72

Oldfishlady said:


> I use filters on start up sometimes then remove them later and sometimes I don't use one at all....Not really a right or wrong answer to filter or not...With that said, in larger tanks-over 40gal...the water movement might be needed for nutrient transport-but you don't want or need a lot of water agitation at the surface since that can drive off the CO2.


 
Okay, it just seems to be kicking up more debris. That being said, I used Flourite by Seachem as my substrate and that stuff was MESSY--even after rinsing it. The water was very cloudy for several days, so I waited to put fish in. I've checked PH,temperature, etc each day and they all seem to be good. I currently have my filter running and there is a light (in addition to sunlight from a South Window. Today is day 5. I snapped a picture yesterday of my divided ten gallon, since I did that one first and it is much clearer. The water is a little clearer today than yesterday, but do you think I could add the fish or wait until the water is perfectly clear? I just don't want to keep them in holding tanks anymore than I have to.


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## Oldfishlady

I have never used Flourite and so I can't say if it is safe or not to add livestock.
By your pic-if this was a soil based tanks-I would say "no"-because it doesn't have enough plants to take care of the water-but I also can't see the whole tank either.

As for the kick-up the filter is causing-sometimes if you place a hard scape item under the overflow-that will help prevent it-also a large group of stems or a large sword or crypt can help.


----------



## Mal72

Oldfishlady said:


> I have never used Flourite and so I can't say if it is safe or not to add livestock.
> By your pic-if this was a soil based tanks-I would say "no"-because it doesn't have enough plants to take care of the water-but I also can't see the whole tank either.
> 
> As for the kick-up the filter is causing-sometimes if you place a hard scape item under the overflow-that will help prevent it-also a large group of stems or a large sword or crypt can help.


The tank has 6 live plants in it right now. I've ordered some floating plants but they have not come in yet. I just got a couple of mystery snails today and they seem to be doing okay in the tank. 

I know of another member that has used it so I will have to ask. And I'll add more swords next to the filter. Thank you.


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## Mal72

Well, I have to eat


Mal72 said:


> The tank has 6 live plants in it right now. I've ordered some floating plants but they have not come in yet. I just got a couple of mystery snails today and they seem to be doing okay in the tank.
> 
> I know of another member that has used it so I will have to ask. And I'll add more swords next to the filter. Thank you.


I have to eat my words. The snails are in and now there is some piece of white stuff floating around, one of the plants (the only one not on your list, but they assured me it would work) has died. The heater does not seem to be working anymore and the water is cloudy still.  I guess I'll be returning both the heater and plants after work


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## jbk

Which Tank is best suited for Betta or in general Glass, plastic or acrylic ?


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## JAGalletta

@jbk Please try posting a new post in another section of these forums. We generally (read definitely) try to stay on topic with our threads on this site. Since this is a very different topic than what we are discussing in this thread, I'd suggest this link for you: Post new thread in Betta Fish Bowls, Habitats, and Accessories or try searching for an existing thread on your topic.

I believe I can speak for all of us in wishing you the best in finding the information you are looking for in these forums. We'd be glad to help you in the proper section. 

Regards,

John


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## Aurie

To be honest I read the first page of posts and jumped to the last page to add a new post (to make sure it's still on the same topic).. seems good..

Thanks again OFL for the first post. I have been searching EVERYWHERE for good walstad methods for my 5.5 tank that I got back in june. I put orange/grey sand in it but now it's just down to a betta log, a fake plastic log and 1 crypt wendtii green. Pathetic I know.. I decided to dirt it up. Look for a diary soon! 

I looked in many other forums and got good ideas but not for small tanks. I needed a "tell me like I'm a high school student" basic plan and you nailed it. I know other things are important in a small tank but I shouldn't have to be a chemistry major to figure it out (although I'm sure it helps).. some people just get so technical in their threads. I should have known there'd be something here on this forum. Keep it up. Many people are benefiting from the knowledge and won't post a thank you.!

Aurie


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## Oldfishlady

Aurie said:


> To be honest I read the first page of posts and jumped to the last page to add a new post (to make sure it's still on the same topic).. seems good..
> 
> Thanks again OFL for the first post. I have been searching EVERYWHERE for good walstad methods for my 5.5 tank that I got back in june. I put orange/grey sand in it but now it's just down to a betta log, a fake plastic log and 1 crypt wendtii green. Pathetic I know.. I decided to dirt it up. Look for a diary soon!
> 
> I looked in many other forums and got good ideas but not for small tanks. I needed a "tell me like I'm a high school student" basic plan and you nailed it. I know other things are important in a small tank but I shouldn't have to be a chemistry major to figure it out (although I'm sure it helps).. some people just get so technical in their threads. I should have known there'd be something here on this forum. Keep it up. Many people are benefiting from the knowledge and won't post a thank you.!
> 
> Aurie


Your welcome and thank you...I try to explain so that anyone can understand, however, sometimes I tend to talk in circles....lol....


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## Sprinkles55

Hi OFL! I had a few questions. 
I know you mentioned green cabomba is a stem plant, I was wondering if purple cabomba was too? I'm sure it is, but I wanted to double check. 
Also i just started my 10g npt and was wondering if this is enough plants: duckweed, marimo moss balls, java moss, bronze wendtii, purple cabomba, water sprites, pygmy chain swords, hygrophilia corymbosa, and anubias. I just want to make sure it won't crash. 

I was also wondering your opinion for filters in a 10g npt? Thanks!


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## Sagat

From what I've learned, 75% coverage (viewed from the top) is considered heavily planted. So if you look down on your tank and see more than 25% plants, you should probably put more in it.

OFL, here's a trick question: If the floating plants cover, say, 50% of the ground and stems and rosettes only cover 25%, does that still count as heavily planted?


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## Oldfishlady

Yes, the purple is just a color variation, however, sometimes they will have color loss due to limited light we normally use in the soil based system-but it should still grow fine.
As for the plants-how many of the stem plants do you have-it is important to have lots of stems-The stem plants grow fast generally and are what help to keep the water safe until everything gets established.
What will your stocking be?

Filters-I don't have favorite filters-IMO/E they all do about the same thing-with that said, you want to limit surface agitation or too much since that can drive off the CO2. But, canisters with sprayer bars work pretty good since you can keep the sprayer bar under the water level. HOB's are okay-but if you plan on shrimp you have to be careful due to them being sucked up and the sponge filter is a good choice since you can have control of the flow if you use a gang valve. Or no filter at all and allow the plants to do that job. I don't always use filters-especially in my 10gal and under tanks-even on start up in a moderately stocked tank.


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## Oldfishlady

Sagat said:


> OFL, here's a trick question: If the floating plants cover, say, 50% of the ground and stems and rosettes only cover 25%, does that still count as heavily planted?


If I understand-50% or half the surface with floating plants and 25% rosette and stems-making 25% of the floor planted...No, I wouldn't consider that heavy planted. I kinda don't count floating plants-but do too...lol...they do matter since they are heavy feeders-especially important in new setups-As the tank matures and all the plants are doing well and you need to trim at least every 7-10 days and the rosette are sending runners- that tells me they are thriving and my soil/water is most likely safe too.
Balance-plants thriving and livestock thriving with the soil alive with bacteria-Everything doing its job.....
Its not that less plants won't work-its more to error on the side of caution and this is important when you first set a soil based system up- By having heavy feeding, fast growing stem and floater. The stem also have another job of bringing oxygen into the soil for aerobic life and to prevent anaerobic problems


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## Sagat

Awesome info. Thanks 

How do you feel about circulation pumps/power heads? I'd considered getting one for my 29G (and possibly my 20L) to get circulation to my plants, but less surface agitation.

After some research, though, it seems really hard to find something with a low-enough GPH to avoid blasting my poor betta. After about 1.5 months, I'm starting to notice some spots in my tank where plants grow faster or slower than other parts of the tank, even with some adjustments to my lighting.


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## Sprinkles55

Oldfishlady said:


> Yes, the purple is just a color variation, however, sometimes they will have color loss due to limited light we normally use in the soil based system-but it should still grow fine.
> As for the plants-how many of the stem plants do you have-it is important to have lots of stems-The stem plants grow fast generally and are what help to keep the water safe until everything gets established.
> What will your stocking be?
> 
> Filters-I don't have favorite filters-IMO/E they all do about the same thing-with that said, you want to limit surface agitation or too much since that can drive off the CO2. But, canisters with sprayer bars work pretty good since you can keep the sprayer bar under the water level. HOB's are okay-but if you plan on shrimp you have to be careful due to them being sucked up and the sponge filter is a good choice since you can have control of the flow if you use a gang valve. Or no filter at all and allow the plants to do that job. I don't always use filters-especially in my 10gal and under tanks-even on start up in a moderately stocked tank.


I have 7 cabomba, one hygro c., and two water sprites concerning stem plants.
Along with them is some duckweed, pygmy chain swords, anubias, java moss, and crypt bronze wendtii.
My filter's flow is strong so I might not use it, but I'm still deciding on to baffle it or to not use it.
Also I'm not sure if it's bad or if the tank needs to settle but, when set up it was a little cloudy (this was lasnight) and it still was when I got home today so I did a 50% water change. It still is... Is this normal? Should I just keep changing the water until it's completely clear?


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## Oldfishlady

Your water should be clear and if not after a couple of water only changes-you either don't have enough stem plants or something is kicking up the cap-like filter or fish. IMO-its most likely not enough stem plants looking at your list. If you can get some naja grass-add a mass of that-it can be planted or floated.

Sagat-sometimes a species of plant will just not do well for what ever reason-In my tanks-one tank will support one species and not another and while the exact same setup sitting next to it-supports a totally different species I can't grow in the other....Just one of the many challenges we face with planted tanks....lol.....


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## Sprinkles55

Oldfishlady said:


> Your water should be clear and if not after a couple of water only changes-you either don't have enough stem plants or something is kicking up the cap-like filter or fish. IMO-its most likely not enough stem plants looking at your list. If you can get some naja grass-add a mass of that-it can be planted or floated.


After letting it settle it's actually cleared up beautifully.
I might get some najas grass for the back or to float - It looks very pretty. 
For now I think I'll be okay though. Thank you OFL! 
Here's a picture as of 5 minutes ago :-D


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## bayhay69

*Is anyone having algae issues on their sand ?*

I clean my aquarium once a week. For some reason there seems to be A LOT of brown stuff ...algae ?? or maybe fish waste ?? on the bottom of the sand, mainly in the back of the tank. What could this be ? Also some of the silk plants have a little of this stuff on them too. Nothing on the tank itself. :-? It's very baffling. And it's driving me cRaZY !!!:shock:


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## FishyFishy89

bayhay69 said:


> I clean my aquarium once a week. For some reason there seems to be A LOT of brown stuff ...algae ?? or maybe fish waste ?? on the bottom of the sand, mainly in the back of the tank. What could this be ? Also some of the silk plants have a little of this stuff on them too. Nothing on the tank itself. :-? It's very baffling. And it's driving me cRaZY !!!:shock:


In my experience and research, I've read that brown algae occurs in cycled tank. I got amano shrimps to nom on my brown algae.


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## lillyandquigly

@bayhay, those discus in your avi, are they yours?


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## MattsBettas

Uh oh. I want a NPt now lol. I would like shrimp in it, so would the fluval shrimp stratum substrate work well as a topper? Thanks so much for this ofl!


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## FishyFishy89

question, would a small amount of soil cause a spike or crash in parameters? I currently have 1 sword in my 75 but it's not doing the greatest it could do. The ends of the leaves are turning yellow at the ends. I've read this is showing nutrient deficiency.

Surely such a small amount of soil around 1 plant wouldn't cause a crash in a large tank right?


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## Oldfishlady

Is it just one sword in a 75 gal soil based or is the sword potted and sitting in the 75gal with inert substrate. 
Usually yellow leaves are a sign of Iron deficiency. 
Depending on the soil and how much-it can cause problems-especially if you don't have enough active growing stem plants.


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## FishyFishy89

I just have playsand in the 75. I have 15 stems of cabomba, 4-5 handfuls of hornwort floating and salvina/duckweed floating. The sword is planted right into the substrate. It didn't come with a little pot, I was just thinking I could wrap up some soil in wax paper/lay it right in the spot the sword is in. If necessary, I do have a smaller pot that my basil plant is currently in, it's getting transferred to a larger pot this weekend.


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## FishyFishy89

I also want to add, I've only been dosing Flourish once a week...


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## acadialover

I'v had my soil tank about 4 weeks and the plans have gone crazy......... wow.... however, I've noticed my little betta's fins starting to curl..... OH no..... what can I do ?? OFL ??? anyone ??


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## Oldfishlady

acadialover said:


> I'v had my soil tank about 4 weeks and the plans have gone crazy......... wow.... however, I've noticed my little betta's fins starting to curl..... OH no..... what can I do ?? OFL ??? anyone ??


It is hard to say, however, I would start a new thread-along with the needed info found in the sticky at the top of the disease/emergency section and a pic....A lot of times curling of the fins will be due to aging, genetics, hard water or injury...


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## Oldfishlady

FishyFishy89 said:


> I just have playsand in the 75. I have 15 stems of cabomba, 4-5 handfuls of hornwort floating and salvina/duckweed floating. The sword is planted right into the substrate. It didn't come with a little pot, I was just thinking I could wrap up some soil in wax paper/lay it right in the spot the sword is in. If necessary, I do have a smaller pot that my basil plant is currently in, it's getting transferred to a larger pot this weekend.


Okay....the yellow leaves most likely are due to Iron deficiency or normal die off and/or leaf change over. You might want to add roots tabs for the sword. Is this a newly bought sword plant and if so, did it come in one of those tubes. You can plant the sword in a pot of dirt-then cover the dirt with some gravel to help keep it weighted down better-Be sure the crown is slightly above the substrate line.

Also, when you say change in water prams-what are those numbers and how are they different from the last test and source water and in what relation did you make the test to when you added plants ferts and/or water change using dechlorinator. Did it cause any changes in livestock behavior.


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## Sagat

OFL, how often do you remove dead plant matter? I've noticed that Diana W. doesn't mention water changes in a newly set up tank. For that matter, I've never heard any mention from anyone about proper care for a newly set up NPT. Just lots of raves about how few water changes need to be done when it's established. I suspect that a lot of my current problems are stemming from how few water changes I've done.

Could you explain what water changes do for the tank? All Diana mentions in her book is the removal of excess nutrients in the water column. How does that affect fish health (if at all)


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## FishyFishy89

The sword is fairly new....2-ish weeks? I've seen 1 leaf grow out and now another one appears to be growing.

I was speaking of water parameters because you said your tank could crash if you add livestock to a tank that isn't fully planted when using soil.


----------



## Oldfishlady

Sagat-with newly setup soil based tanks-depending on-type of soil, how many and what species of plants and how well they are doing-Water changes will vary from a couple of times a week to every month in the beginning-until the soil settles or starts its life underwater-this usually can take about 3 months. Its hard to give exacts due to every system can be different for all kinds of reason.

If you have a lot of dead plant matter-something might be wrong or the plants are not adapted to living underwater yet and going through a normal leaf change over. You shouldn't have a lot of plant deaths or leaves dropping-If its not normal leaf change over it can be due to the wrong color temp lights, old bulbs, not long enough on the photoperiod or bad soil.

Water changes are to help keep the water safe for livestock in the beginning until everything settles and plants thriving. Once mature and thriving-water changes can help replenish trace and other nutrients that can get used up over time.


----------



## Sagat

Helpful as always, thanks! I discovered the hard way that my LFS's tank conditions were different enough from mine that all my wisteria (and almost all my crypts) dropped their leaves. I didn't know whether taking out the dead leaves were a problem or not, so I just left them in.

Is it normal for the MTS to be churning the woodchips up and leaving them on the surface of the cap, like in my screenshot, or did I do something wrong when I planted it? At first, I thought it was from me being sloppy when I planted, but the mulch bed keeps getting larger by the day.


----------



## Oldfishlady

Not uncommon, however, I like to sift my dirt to remove any of the larger debris-but the MTS will bring some of the dirt up and I bring a lot of dirt up when I pull a plant-Once the dirt is water logged/starts its life underwater-it usually won't cause any problems. I sometimes will have to top off the cap with fresh sand to cover the exposed dirt and sand that I will sometimes remove when I collect snails to remove and/or to brighten the sand up a bit when it get dingy.


----------



## lillyandquigly

If you use dirt from your backyard, do you have to bake it first tokill germs?? Please answer soon cause i need this information


----------



## Oldfishlady

I don't bake my dirt I dig up in my pasture....Never have and never will.....

As long as your dirt is free of harmful chemicals it should be safe to use-Germs wouldn't be an issue IMO/E or the tiny bugs/worms that are in it....They drown and become part of the soil with time. You can bake it if you want....but I don't...


----------



## LinkLover

I have a quick question about the need for shrimp/snails. I am seriously considering doing a NPT for my Betta, either in a ten or twenty gallon long tank. Since he does NOT do well with other living things in his tank with him (and the fact that I consider all living things in my house as pets), I would like to avoid adding anything else if possible. Can a NPT work without any shrimp or snails?


----------



## Oldfishlady

They can, however, the idea behind soil based planted tanks-is to create a little ecosystem and shrimp/snails are important parts of that. The trumpet snails help to aerate the soil to prevent anaerobic spot and the common snails consume some algae, dead/dieing plant matter...etc....The shrimp shred the organic so they break down faster so the plants/system can use it for nutrients. Everything has a role.....


----------



## LinkLover

Ok, that makes sense. I understand that having the shrimp/snails is helpful and important, I just don't want to be removing lots of snails and killing them, or constantly buying new shrimp if they die. It's not at all that I don't want to do the work, I just care about everything no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Would a Mystery/Apple Snail work? I have had those and they aren't a problem for me at all, and in fact I enjoy watching them. And as far as the shrimp go, how many would be needed for a ten or twenty gallon tank? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into before I attempt this.


----------



## Nothingness

the more shrimp the better. They are great as you dont need to feed them as the will find enough food in the tank. I would suggest 25-50 shrimp to start with and hopefully they should be able to maintain population levels alright if the Betta decides he enjoys a shrimp snack every now and then. Amano shrimps are a bigger shrimp and a great algae eater and typically are too big for most betta to eat. They also require salty water to reproduce so if you dont want a shrimp explosion then they are your best choice.

I personally have both red cherry and amano shrimp in my tank. I like the colour that the cherry shrimps add to the tank. Also make sure to have lots of moss in the tank for the shrimp


----------



## Oldfishlady

I understand....

I have never kept a mystery snail in a NPT and so I can't comment.

Another option-would be Assassin snail instead of trumpet snails-The Assassin snail has a burrowing habit too, to help with soil aeration-
As well as eating common snails to help keep them somewhat controlled...at least this is what I have found with research. My personal experience with the Assassin snail is limited to about 3 months more or less....lol....

Shrimp-if you started with Red cherry shrimp(_RCS_)-I would start with at least 2 females and a male or a couple of berried females-This should be a good start of a RCS colony, or as many as you wanted- Provided that you have enough cover to prevent the Betta from eating too many of the shrimpletts-It is expected for the Betta to eat some and IMO-that is a good thing...Circle of life...so-to-speak....


----------



## LinkLover

Thank you very much for the help! Hopefully I will be able to come up with a good plan to make the tank successful when I decide to start it.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Mystery and Apple Snails do not burrow into the sand. They just nom on whatever they find. Go to PetsMart. They constantly get in MTS with their plant orders and are happy to give them away for free. I have maybe 5? in my 75 gallon and they've yet to blossom. I've read that as long as you don't over feed, your snail population will control itself.


----------



## Sagat

I'm on month 2 of my assassin snail experiment and am thinking about adding more, once I can confirm whether my third snail is alive or dead. They have an annoying habit of both being nocturnal and staying buried and out of sight until they get larger. 

Some things about assassin snails... 

I wouldn't recommend them as an alternative to other types of snails. Instead, I would add them last, after you have a good handle on how rapidly your other snails are populating so they don't starve to death (since they're generally carnivorus).

Mine seemed to favor snails smaller than them until they grew to be bigger than a quarter inch, at which point they were brave enough to prowl and stalk the bigger snails.

If you do that, you should be able to balance your ecosystem so that you don't demolish your MTS/pond snail populations.


----------



## LinkLover

I know that the Mystery Snails don't burrow, I just wondered if they would be helpful at all. I would manually poke the soil a few times a week as an alternative to the other types of snails. I guess I might have to rethink this whole thing, since honestly I'd rather not have a bunch of animals eating each other, as silly as I know that probably sounds.


----------



## Nothingness

LinkLover said:


> I know that the Mystery Snails don't burrow, I just wondered if they would be helpful at all. I would manually poke the soil a few times a week as an alternative to the other types of snails. I guess I might have to rethink this whole thing, since honestly I'd rather not have a bunch of animals eating each other, as silly as I know that probably sounds.


I believe if you use a small gravel on top of the soil layer instead of sand this will allow the air to escape on its own. Its the sand that traps the air until it becomes big enough bubbles to burst through the top of the sand


----------



## LinkLover

Oh really? I was planning on using the gravel if I decided to do this, so I might be able to make it work. My only concern with everything was the necessity of the additional animals to really make it all work. Because if possible I wanted to do it with just my Betta, although I know the point of an ecosystem is having multiple organisms each doing a "job" to create a stable environment. So I just don't know how successful it would be with only plants and one Betta.


----------



## madmonahan

Some questions. 

Can you make a NPT in a divided 10 gallon?
If so,
How many trumpet snails for a divided 10?
How many shrimp, and what kind?


----------



## FishyFishy89

I would imagine it would be the same concept in a non-divided tank....


----------



## Oldfishlady

FishyFishy89 said:


> I would imagine it would be the same concept in a non-divided tank....


That is correct..

As for the trumpet snails...I would start with about 2-6 more or less...these livebearing snails can reproduce pretty fast.

Shrimp-personally, I like the RCS-start with 3-6 at least


----------



## blu the betta

i have a natural planted tank but my plants keep losing their leaves. is that natural?


----------



## madmonahan

Oldfishlady said:


> That is correct..
> 
> As for the trumpet snails...I would start with about 2-6 more or less...these livebearing snails can reproduce pretty fast.
> 
> Shrimp-personally, I like the RCS-start with 3-6 at least


Thank you! So if the snails start to reproduce what do I do with those snails? I'm thinking:
4 trumpet snails,
4 RCS.


----------



## Oldfishlady

blu the betta said:


> i have a natural planted tank but my plants keep losing their leaves. is that natural?


It depends....what kind of plant, how long has it been in the tank, do you know if it was grown at the nursery emersed or submersed.
What kind and how deep the soil and cap. Where is the plant located in relation to the light. Do you have a partition between the light and water.
What are the lights, age of bulbs, kelvin, watts and photoperiod


----------



## Oldfishlady

madmonahan said:


> Thank you! So if the snails start to reproduce what do I do with those snails? I'm thinking:
> 4 trumpet snails,
> 4 RCS.


I trap and/or hand pick excessive snails from my tanks on a regular basis and destroy them.

Its important to destroy and dispose of them properly-You never want to release anything from your tropical tank into the native environment-since that could cause problems-plus it is illegal.

What I do-I roll them up in newspaper and crush them-then either toss in the trash, burn or compost. I also will crush them and leave a few in the tank for the livestock to feed on.

You can keep them somewhat controlled in the tank by limiting food, however, with the soil based tanks-fish food is a great plant food/fert and I add a pinch of flake food 1-2 times a week just for the plants and why I have excessive amounts of common snails in the first place...lol....


----------



## pingu

Is it ok to use homemade compost in a npt? my father-in-law has offered for me to use some of his. As far as I know the only thing that goes into it is food waste and garden waste no additives


----------



## FishyFishy89

Some food many leach toxins into the tank, I'd be weary about using homemade compost in an aquarium.


----------



## pingu

FishyFishy89 said:


> Some food many leach toxins into the tank, I'd be weary about using homemade compost in an aquarium.


Oh ok, apparently my local chain DIY shop does aquatic substrate so I'll check that out


----------



## FishyFishy89

pingu said:


> Oh ok, apparently my local chain DIY shop does aquatic substrate so I'll check that out


That was supposed to be may not many xD
I believe OFL said you can use organic potting soil. That may actually be cheaper than your DIY shop's substrate...


----------



## Oldfishlady

I wouldn't use straight compost that is under 1 year old-You can mix it with some top soil...about 25/75 mix compost/topsoil-With that said, it may need to be cut even more when used for tanks under 20gals.

Organic potting soil or top soil you can buy in bags will work-What you want to avoid with the bagged dirt-Is any added fertilizer and water absorbing beads you see in some of the potting soils for house plants.

Regardless of the dirt-be sure and sift it or pick through it to remove any of the larger pieces of organic matter.


----------



## pingu

I know this compost is well over a year old and after doing some reading on the stuff the DIY shop sells it'd be a waste of money they do however do some decent topsoil

So you'd suggest mixing the compost with the topsoil, the tank I plan on using is a 14g tank


----------



## Sagat

Oldfishlady said:


> I trap and/or hand pick excessive snails from my tanks on a regular basis and destroy them.


An alternative to manual removal of snails is to start stocking snail predators in the tank. There're various fish that will do that, but I'm a big fan of assassin snails, since they're less likely to develop your standard fish diseases.

I've read that they eat about 1 snail a day, but it's hard to give an exact number on how many you should get since you're shooting for a balanced ecosystem.

I can tell you what happened in my 20L, though. I stocked it with a pond snail that hitchhiked it's way into my tank, about 20 starter MTS and 3 assassins. One assassin went MIA and hasn't been seen since, the other two have doubled in size and are laying eggs and my trumpet snails pretty much are out of sight, out of mind. The pond snail population boomed and now is down to about a half-dozen visible pond snails and there are lots and lots of snail egg cases around the tank.

I eventually ended up taking about 4 - 6 of my largest MTS out to seed a new tank, but that was the only time I ever removed a snail from it.

I'm potentially going to have a half dozen assassin babies, so I may end up having to restock my 20 so that the assassins continue to have food and breed.

I've read reports of assassins opportunistically feeding on shrimp, but I haven't found anything definitive, and generally assassins prefer slower moving food (ie snails) anyway.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Kwomais

My assassins also do a great job of keeping the snails in check... I still have tonnes, but I have 2 assassins in a 5gal and I have no more pond snails and about half as many baby ramshorns as I had a month ago. I can attest to the assassins eating shrimp, however, the RCS that one of my snails was eating was most definitely dead before the snail started chowing down (part of my expected die off in the first 24hrs of having the shrimp).


----------



## avraptorhal

Oldfishlady said:


> Your welcome...I am sure I forgot some information....Just ask questions on what you don't understand or if you need more detail....


Thank you for the wonderful sticky! I've started to set up a Betta tank. I have a 5.5 gal tank w/a glass canopy. I'm considering a Fluval Mini LED clamp on lamp PCL 13 P/N 3935. Does this sound reasonable to you? I have 2 AZOO Mignon filters for this project. I also have a 25 Watt heater for this tank. I have heard that Miracle Grow Potting soil is a good soil for an NPT. Any comments, suggestions questions are gratefully accepted.


----------



## Oldfishlady

I honestly don't know that much about the LED lights, however, from my research-unless they are rated for plants-I wouldn't use them for a soil based tank. Color temp is what is important to support plant growth and the active plant growth is what keep the water safe for livestock. I don't know how the LED lights convert in term of color temp for plants- What I would recommend is looking for florescent light strip and use a 6500k bulb for a soil based tank.


----------



## OrangeAugust

Do you recommend having CO2 in a soil-based tank? I'm about to set up my 55 gallon tank and I'm thinking of doing DIY CO2... do you think it's needed?


----------



## Oldfishlady

I don't inject CO2-IMO/E its not needed in the NPT's-Once mature and you have debris in decomp they will make natural CO2-then you can run into problems if you don't have enough light along with injecting CO2. Plus NPT are intended to be low tech


----------



## OrangeAugust

Thanks!
One more question. I bought some organic potting soil, and it lists everything in it- basically stuff from forest floors. But then it says "natural fertilizers", and there are little white balls in it... what are the fertilizers made of? It can't be chemicals, can it? I mean, it says "organic" and "natural fertilizers". I hope I can still use it because I already put it in my tank and started covering it with sand...


----------



## FishyFishy89

if there's little white balls in it then I'm sure it has fertilizers. There shouldn't be any...


----------



## SilverWolf

Ok, before I attempt this I want to make sure I'm understanding this right!

I put soil in first after picking out the big 'stuff';
Then I put sand on top of that?

How do I keep the two from mixing when I start adding water????

TIA


----------



## Oldfishlady

SilverWolf said:


> Ok, before I attempt this I want to make sure I'm understanding this right!
> 
> I put soil in first after picking out the big 'stuff';
> Then I put sand on top of that?
> 
> How do I keep the two from mixing when I start adding water????
> 
> TIA


I place my soil-then I wet it slightly-then I place my sand-then I add water carefully so not to disturb the soil/sand layer-then I drain-then plant and refill

Orange-the white balls are most likely perilite or vermiculite(spelling) and will not hurt anything, however, they can get into the water column and be sucked into the filter-with that said, the few tank I used soil that has that in it has never caused any problems-It looks ugly and I have to fish it out every time I plant or pull a plant-since it usually will float.


----------



## SilverWolf

K, Thanks!


----------



## BettaKing1997

*Thanks that was helpful.*

Thanks so much. I'm thinking about getting a small live plant. This deserves a thumbs up. 👍


----------



## KenD

I started a soil based 10 gallon on Monday night and I did a 50% water change on Tuesday night because it was cloudy and it had a yellow hue to it. It still has the yellow hue to it today, Saturday morning, and I am wondering if I should do another water change? I plan on getting a test kit today to see what my levels are at, this is my first planted tank and my first real tank in general so any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and I have a betta, 3 corrys, about 8 ghost shrimp, and a couple common snails. I'm waiting on my MTS to come in the mail soon.


----------



## Oldfishlady

The yellow might be the soil or driftwood leaching tannins and this can vary on timeline when it resolves, until then, make at least 2 weekly 50% water changes while the system is maturing. In about 2-3 weeks-you might be able to drop the water changes to 1-50% weekly-provided that you have lots of active plant growth.


----------



## KenD

Thank you for the fast response! The ghost shrimp were the only shrimp I could find at any LFS near me, will they do the same job as RCS or should I order some RCS?


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## Oldfishlady

Ghost shrimp will work...but the RCS are better and easier to keep in general IME


----------



## avraptorhal

Thanks a bunch!!! A great sticky.


----------



## Olympia

And folks we are back online! Thanks to yours truly. 

OFL if you ever see this, don't get mad, think of all the people that need this...


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## KenD

What happened to this thread? I was looking for it the other day and I thought it was a problem with my account but I guess not.


----------



## DanielaMarie

Hi everyone! I have a 10 gallon planted community tank I've had set up for 9 months that I'm working on making heavily planted and am interested in converting to an NPT this summer. My question is this: I am a college student who visits home multiple times a year and I take my tank with me for the major breaks, thus moving it 4 times a year and have never had any problems. I put the fish and Anacharis in a half filled 5 gallon bucket for the car ride and drain the tank until the substrate is just covered and then set it back up. Because of the movement of the car and carrying the tank, the substrate and plants shift around some so I typically have to do some replanting when I get to my destination. Would this be a problem for an NPT?


----------



## bettacrazygirl86

Kind of glad this came back the day after I got my 10 gallon set up. xD It prevented me from spending more money than I really wanted to, since I was thinking about doing a NPT but had no idea how since the sticky was gone.


----------



## Olympia

Daniella, I think the biggest issue would be the dirt mixing with the sand cap, which would look pretty unsightly and be very difficult to fix. :/


----------



## Nicci Lu

About using soil from your yard...

The soil where I live is heavy red clay that floods easily. Would this be okay to use, or would I have to mix it with something to be viable? I know for gardening outside I have to doctor it...


----------



## PeetaTheBetta

Great post OFL! I will use this as I start my NPT.


----------



## KenD

Is it bad to change the filter and do a water change at the same time or does most of the beneficial bacteria stay in the soil?


----------



## FishyFishy89

I am very close to considering digging out my sand, putting in potting soil and putting some of the previous sand ontop of it. Maybe I'm just impatient, but it almost appears that my plants are having a hard time. My hornwort seems to be slowly disappearing, my cabomba leaves aren't regrowing/only 1 stem is growing, but it's not producing more leaves..., my corckscrew val seems to be doing okay, but I've just planted them and my ruffled sword seems to be thriving. The java moss I got just last weekend. So far I'm not seeing any signs of it dying on me.

The only thing that seems to be thriving is the ruffled sword and salivina. Maybe a month? ago I added in 2 flourish tablets. The sword got a whole tablet and I spilt 1 in 3s for the cabomba. I also add liquid fert maybe once a week.


----------



## DanielaMarie

Forgive my inexperience when it comes to soil, either in or out of a tank, but won't the soil stay grounded once it's been watered down and settled in the tank as sand would do, making the cap unnecessary?


----------



## MattsBettas

It might but it would kick up at the littlest thing and not settle easily. I don't doubt ofl lol.


----------



## Stone

I had a NPT going with soil and sand, I have a pleco that is about 7 inches long and he loves to dig, he dug through the sand cap and got into the soil.......it was a total mess, something I will not repeat I use a gravel cap now and use craft cloth and a thin thin layer of sand right on top of the soil to keep diggers at bay, so I would really consider what you are going to put in a tank before deciding on a cap if its a betta tank and you get a layer of really course sand it's fine, non betta tank think about what kinds of fish and what they do


----------



## carbonxxkidd

I had to uproot some of my wisteria in my NPT yesterday which resulted in some of my soil seeping through...any tips on how to replace the sand cap around plants? Or would I be better off just leaving it alone? It's not real noticeable, in the back of the tank...


----------



## Sagat

From what I've read, beneficial bacteria will eventually glue your soil together, just like it does in the wild. That doesn't mean it'll never cloud up, but it shouldn't get as cloudy as it does when you first set your tank up. carbonxxkidd: If I understand your question right... Whenever I want to replace the cap, I just pour more sand in the tank or move some from another area into the hole I want filled


----------



## MattsBettas

You guys can try it if you want but the sand cap looks nice, works, and I see no reason to fix what's not broken. Ofl is pretty much an expert in this field, so I trust that this is the best way.


----------



## carbonxxkidd

Sagat, my only problem is it's pretty crowded where the sand cap needs replacing. Even though the cap is messed up, the tank isn't cloudy or anything...the soil that was kicked up just settled right out. Like I said you can't really see the soil on top, I have black sand so it's not noticeable. I'll have to see if I can figure out some sort of tool to get the sand cap replaced how I want it without getting sand all overmy plants and stuff, lol.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Use a butter knife


----------



## Sagat

Turkey baster. Pop the bulb off that sucker, stick it where you want sand and then drop it through the top


----------



## FishyFishy89

OH! Putting sand in the tank?!
I thought you meant for fixing your sand! /facepalm


----------



## carbonxxkidd

Good idea! Thanks!


----------



## Mar

Awesome guide, thanks!


----------



## ao

carbonxxkidd said:


> Good idea! Thanks!



I usually leave mine ^_^ my first npt is all soil on the top layer now. I love how it looks so natural and all...


----------



## carbonxxkidd

Good to know. I bought some more sand but like I said it's not really noticable and doesn't seem to really get cloudy or anything. Seems like it'd be more of a PITA to put a new sand cap in that spot, lol.


----------



## Nicci Lu

aokashi said:


> I usually leave mine ^_^ my first npt is all soil on the top layer now. I love how it looks so natural and all...


Thanks for that, aokashi! Now I don't feel so bad about my losing battle with the bits of soil that continuously show up on the sand. Of course, my corys don't help any...


----------



## Mashiro

Hey, Aokashi, what type of dirt did you use for your NPTs?


----------



## ao

I used seedling mix. haha cos I couldn't find anything else at the time. its mostly peat and everything floats >.> I recommend to stick with miracle gro organic choice potting mix ^_^


----------



## carbonxxkidd

+1 on the miracle gro organic choice potting mix - it's working out great in my NPT!


----------



## jlllm

..


----------



## Perchmonger

*Suggestions about 610gal NPT; dirting this beast.*

Hi everyone I haven't been on in a while, but I've been hearing a lot about NPT and dirting tanks. I have a 610 gallon planted aquarium , but I'm ready for a new challenge, and you guys have given it to me. I'm going to start with a 40 gallon breeder tank 36"x 18"x 16" to practice for the mammoth undertaking I'm going to embark on in 8 1/2 weeks. I already have 5 large bags of Miracle Grow potting soil, 5 bags of Truface Pro League Heritage Red fired Clay gravel that I'm mixing with my old Eco-Complete substrate to cap it. I have about 60 plants, but they are not getting the same growth that they were getting 3 years ago even with substrate fertilizer, so I'm intrigued and excited to go in a somewhat new direction, NPT. I have 150 more plants on order and over 100 fish to move; god just catching them is adventure in itself. I need suggestions in abundance and none are to facetious. I will try to document my progress for everyone. Tank Size 8 feet long x 4 feet tall x 3 feet deep. Thanks 

Picture of my aquarium for size reference:








Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htFJHaLEzTU


----------



## acadialover

YOu are going to have a blast, and your plants will grow like crazy. I followed OFL 's instructions to the and everything is going fantastically 4 months later on two tanks. Only 5 gallon tanks though, with bettas and shrimp and burrowing snails. Please keep us up on everything step by step !


----------



## Bombalurina

That tank is INSANE! I am so jealous. 

I have also followed OFL's instructions and everything is thriving.


----------



## Perchmonger

Bombalurina said:


> That tank is INSANE! I am so jealous.
> 
> I have also followed OFL's instructions and everything is thriving.


Thanks, but the job I have to do is going to be crazy hard and exciting all in one.


----------



## a444mo

I wish I had a tank that size! Wowzers!


----------



## Sagat

The only thing I've regretted with my 20L NPT, is that it's too small. I can't wait to see pictures of yours!


----------



## Perchmonger

a444mo said:


> I wish I had a tank that size! Wowzers!


Thanks It's a little work at times.


----------



## Perchmonger

Sagat said:


> The only thing I've regretted with my 20L NPT, is that it's too small. I can't wait to see pictures of yours!


You will in six weeks or so!


----------



## countyrd419

*Plants For A 2.5 Gallon Tank*

Rusty sometimes flares his fins and attacks his reflection on the right side of his tank. Some of the community members have recommended I use some plants to block his sight. What are some good suggestions and does PetSmart sell any of them?


----------



## Perchmonger

countyrd419 said:


> Rusty sometimes flares his fins and attacks his reflection on the right side of his tank. Some of the community members have recommended I use some plants to block his sight. What are some good suggestions and does PetSmart sell any of them?


Now that is so cute! you need floating plants like Anacharis.


----------



## Hallyx

It is hard to get plants small enough to fit a 2.5g. Anacharis is a good floater. Anubias and Java fern are slow-growing but indestructible low-light plants that won't outgrow the tank.

Getting some light on that end of the tank might cut down on reflections.


----------



## countyrd419

Thank you all of you for your advice. I will go to Petsmart to see if they have the Anacharis plants in stock either tomorrow or Saturday.


----------



## Mankey

I have something more challenging than a 2.5 for you! I'm thinking of starting up a 1.75 gallon NPT, but not I'm not really sure about what plants and light I should use. Does anybody have any recommendations? The dimensions are 11.75" x 7.75" x 8" (if height matters).

EDIT: I just put those dimensions into aqadvisor and found out it's 3.2 gallons... but Petco has it advertised as 1.75 gallons.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

LxWxH / 231 = gallons


----------



## Mankey

I got 3.154 gallons from that (I actually got something more exact, but I don't wanna put all the decimals). But the tank is a little bit slanted, even though I doubt it's slanted enough to decrease the gallons it'll hold by more than 1... oh well. If Petco wants to advertise their tanks as holding less than what they really hold, it's fine by me. :v


----------



## jona31

Hallyx said:


> It is hard to get plants small enough to fit a 2.5g. Anacharis is a good floater. Anubias and Java fern are slow-growing but indestructible low-light plants that won't outgrow the tank.
> 
> Getting some light on that end of the tank might cut down on reflections.


is your betta in that tank if so ge him outta there thats wayyyyy to small


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## Saphira101

jona31 said:


> is your betta in that tank if so ge him outta there thats wayyyyy to small


2.5 gallons is not too small for a betta. I have 4 2 gallon tanks, each containing one betta, and they are all perfectly healthy. There are lots of other members keeping their bettas in 2 - 2.5 gallon tanks, and some are the best keepers I know.


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## RussellTheShihTzu

+1 Saphira. It's the quality of care that's most important with any pet.


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## countyrd419

2.5 gallons is just fine for Rusty. He is happy and here is the picture to show how much room he has to swim in.


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## FishyFishy89

Look how brightly colored he is! He is clearly thriving. Rusty reminds me how much I love red bettas. I'll go get one when my 5.5 finishes cycling. 

I think I see a new plant in there. How's it going with it? Is his flaring reduced? Note: flaring isnt a bad activity. Usually they'll settle down and realize their reflection is no harm. Occasionally my bettas go to the filter in the back and play with their reflection. Sometimes I think their checking out their fins. xD


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## Perchmonger

FishyFishy89 said:


> Look how brightly colored he is! He is clearly thriving. Rusty reminds me how much I love red bettas. I'll go get one when my 5.5 finishes cycling.
> 
> I think I see a new plant in there. How's it going with it? Is his flaring reduced? Note: flaring isnt a bad activity. Usually they'll settle down and realize their reflection is no harm. Occasionally my bettas go to the filter in the back and play with their reflection. Sometimes I think their checking out their fins. xD


Looks great; Rusty looks happy!


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## countyrd419

I did put a new plant in Rusty's tank. So far it seems to be working at times he swims away from the plant but at other times he squeezes himself in the lower right hand corner where there is a little spot where he pecks at his reflection. Sometimes he floats between the vines.
Yes, we all have to remember that when our bettas see their reflection and peck, they are doing something that is in their nature which is to defend their homes; of course males over females. Our fish pets do have personalities of their own. He really shows off when I put the tank light on. The extra heat makes him feel good.


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## FishyFishy89

Do you have a heater in there?
I'd recommend getting one since bettas are tropical fish. They should be in waters atleast 77F. My bettas love and thrive in 80F


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## countyrd419

Somehow the water in Rusty's tank has remained at a steady 81 degrees without a heater. Maybe my home is warm too and of course being in Florida, our summer heat keeps almost everything toasty even with the air conditioning. 

He is a happy VT-Male Betta.


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## FishyFishy89

Ah, you're in Oviedo, not too far from me. I am in Orlando.
It's been really hot lately. My poor AC has been working overtime to keep the house at 78F  Walk in from outside and the house feels like its 75F!


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## countyrd419

I have been living in Florida for almost thirteen years and I guess you and I just have to accept that the heat and humidity are just a part of life during our summer months. I have one tip that I do to avoid getting into a steamy car before the air conditioning cools down my car. Here it is; I leave my window a crack open -- maybe a 1/2 inch that way the hot air is somewhat escaping into the air of course the window is not too wide open so that my car is not drenched during our famous pelting afternoon thunderstorms which happens daily. When I know that I working throughout the day, I put on my carshade over the front window. Of course I am sure you do some of the things too.


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## MattsBettas

Does anyone have experience with mayaca, Ludwigia ovalis, or diandra in an npt? Or just the plants in general?


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## Flyby Stardancer

Here's my planted tank:










There's two Anubias, two kinds of Java fern, Cryptocoryne wendtii, and a stem. The friend I got the stems from didn't know what they were, but that they did very well in her tanks and her bettas loved them.

No livestock yet, but I just finished a fishless cycle with it.


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## carbonxxkidd

Question: My 5g NPT has been up and running since January and I just removed the filter after the last water change. The water is a bit hazy - not as clear as it was with the filter...will this go away or should I put the filter back? Livestock and plants seem fine...


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## Stone

it should clear up, but I always keep a filter of somekind running for water movement


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## carbonxxkidd

I know OFL mentions removing the filter on the first page of this thread...I liked the idea of not having a filter because it takes up room in the tank (and blocks light) and I already have way too many cords on my counter! If it doesn't clear up soon I'll probably put it back or try and find a smaller one to use in there instead...


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## Stone

yeah it wont take much of one even a sponge filter will work, I tend to have bubble bars and filters to keep the water moving, it helps keep some of the algae at bay as well, I have thought about removing the filters on my smaller tanks that are not as well lit as my big ones but what can I say I like the polished water look


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## Aeoia

I have used Pothos for many years in tanks. My favorite use is for Betta bowls. 

First buy a small pothos then rinse the soil completely from the roots. I like to use one gallon containers from Pat Catans and place the whole plant in the bowl. Place it in a window (I like north windows), let the water condition a few days and then add a betta. Never add plant fertilizer! Feed the betta floating food until the plant is well established. After a few months you will have lots of roots and you can virtually stop feeding the betta. They find all the nutrients they need on the surface of the roots, primarily infusorial organisms attached to the roots and plant tissue itself.

No air stones are needed. Bettas are labyrinth breathers and can live in very small puddles without aeration. Bettas have channels in their heads called labyrinths which they fill by gulping air. In Thailand they have been found to be living in water filled hoof prints of water buffalo.

The betta will be very healthy and content. They forage among the roots and build bubble nests. That's much better than an empty bowl. The roots give them something to do all day. The plant absorbs the nitrites and nitrates and maybe carbon dioxide from the water. So, the fish aids the plant and the plant aids the fish.

I like square bowls and I place them back to back across the window. That way they have some company. The vines grow to the floor. I trim them when the reach the floor, but I believe they will grow long enough to go across the top of the window. They grow that much. The water never smells even though I don't change the water very often, maybe once every two months or more. 

This is a very fun project with fish. I am a microbiologist and love stuff like this. I have also been an aquarist for 51 years. This illustrates the symbiotic relationship of fish, plants water and air. It would be a good science project or exercise for science classes with minimal cost. The fish appear very healthy, grow to ripe old ages and maintain full finnage and beautiful color.


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## phoenix2013

I want to make my 5 g betta tank a planted tank tomorrow but I want to make sure that I am off to a good start. I plan on getting the Aqueon® Mini Compact 50/50 Fluorescent Lamp from “http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11248156&lmdn=Brand&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No” and putting it on a timer for when I go back to school since I go away on weekends. While it is currently on a window sill getting full sun all day long I don't plan on using the light. I am going to pick up some organic non fertilized soil from home depot tomorrow and some play sand for the cap. I was thinking about getting some anacharis, brazilian pennywort to float around, some java fern, some anubias on a log or rock, some water wisteria, crypt wendtii, and possibly some rosette sword and maybe some dwarf high grass for the bottom cover. Would that be enough plants? I plan on putting in 2 ghost shrimp and 2 mystery snails to go with my crown tail betta and otocinclus, would that be enough to sustain the plants? I cant find any trumpet snails in the area or I would go with them. I will probably poke the soil often for a while. Do I need drift wood in the tank? Are there any kinds of wood I should stay away from? Am I missing anything? I don't have much floating but I know my local pond shop has water lettuce would that be a good idea for such a small tank? Are floating plants crucial?


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## carlos puron

I have some questions I'm planning to start a ntp on a 75 gal tank but I'm starting with low light plants such as java moss anubias and stuff like that at this point I'm looking for the lights I would like to get led fixtures because they don't use that much energy ( just trying to go green lol ) but I want to know since I can't use the watt per gallon rule should I based on lumens if so how many lumens would it has to be?


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## Blue Fish

Phoenix and Carlos, I can't answer your question because I'm a plant newbie as well, but you'll get better responses if you post these questions as threads in the forum itself. Where this is just a sticky giving the how/why of NPT's there's not as many people who look on here other than the original posts by OFL with the how-to's. To answer questions the forum is definitely the way to go so that you get noticed by members who *can* answer your questions.  

I hope that helps!


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## Mitra

So you have to have soil for a planted tank to work? I have 10lb or gravel in my 10g with stem plants. It's only been a couple days but im very confused and just bought Nutrafin Plant Gro (with Nitrogen, Baron, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum and Zinc, I think B vitamin too). Is this all i need? The highest maintenance plant I have is Limnophila aromatica http://www.ebay.ca/itm/281131870878?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Is this plant gro all I need for this plant to survive (i also have 4 other types but lower maintenance). My betta loves his new tank but I hope i can keep these plants alive*. Also I only have LED light that came with my Tetra 10 gallon tank from walmart. I dont know if this light is suitable so I want to buy a new hood with better lights for my plants can anyone give me a link 
*


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## FishyFishy89

carlos puron said:


> I have some questions I'm planning to start a ntp on a 75 gal tank but I'm starting with low light plants such as java moss anubias and stuff like that at this point I'm looking for the lights I would like to get led fixtures because they don't use that much energy ( just trying to go green lol ) but I want to know since I can't use the watt per gallon rule should I based on lumens if so how many lumens would it has to be?


LED fixtures often don't even provide the min light requirements. However, there have been some recent LED fixtures that say they are for planted tanks and they do, do well with plants. IMO, LEDs cost WAY too much and really aren't worth it to me. I can spend that money on something else my tank actually NEEDS.

FYI: It costs $5 a month to run my planted 75 gallon. That includes a canister filter rated for 100 gallon tank, a 150w heater, a power head rated for a 30 gallon(for my DIY CO2) and my fluorescent lights.


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## FishyFishy89

Mitra said:


> So you have to have soil for a planted tank to work? I have 10lb or gravel in my 10g with stem plants. It's only been a couple days but im very confused and just bought Nutrafin Plant Gro (with Nitrogen, Baron, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum and Zinc, I think B vitamin too). Is this all i need? The highest maintenance plant I have is Limnophila aromatica Limnophila Aromatica Live Aquarium Plant FOR Fish Tank Shrimp Snail CO2 | eBay
> 
> Is this plant gro all I need for this plant to survive (i also have 4 other types but lower maintenance). My betta loves his new tank but I hope i can keep these plants alive*. Also I only have LED light that came with my Tetra 10 gallon tank from walmart. I dont know if this light is suitable so I want to buy a new hood with better lights for my plants can anyone give me a link
> *


You don't NEED the soil for your plants to flourish, but it certain makes it 10x easier. And the soil is what makes it a NPT.

Are you sure your tank is 10 gallons? The only tetra kit i see on walmarts site is a 5 gallon. If it's the standard rectangle tank, just get one of those swirly florescent bulbs or one of these Aqueon® Mini Compact 50/50 Fluorescent Lamp - Lighting & Hoods - Fish - PetSmart and you're good to go!


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## Loz

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread.. started my own planted tank today using this advice.


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## ringo3632

I'M Not Sure The Proper Lighting, If You Go To Pets MaRt They Have LightingFor Plants. But No, I Use Gravel With My Planted Tanks. You Just Need To Make Sure You Have A Good Amount Of Food For The Plants. Whether It's Plant Food Or The Bioload From The Tank, With Those YouShould Be Good. 

Sorry About The Goofy Caps... My PhoneDoesn't Like ThIs Forum....


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## Mitra

This is the hood i have and I bought it in Canada. http://answers.walmart.com/answers/1336/product/20693147/questions.htm

And that is good to know that I dont absolutely need soil because it would be a pain to try and get all that gravel out from an established tank (no idea how I would do that honestly. Hmm so I just need to replace my LED lights with a florescent light bulb using the same hood like the one FishyFishy89 linked? Thank you everyone


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## FishyFishy89

Hm....I've never seen that hood before.
Here's one that you can purchase, it is compatible for fluorescent bulbs. All Glass Aquarium AAG20009 20 inch Incandescent Economy Black Hood: Other Pet Supplies : Walmart.com


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## Saber

I have a couple of questions regarding lighting.

1.) The tank I purchased off Craigslist is 45 gallons, but it came with a light/hood that is probably meant for a 20 gallon tank or so, as it is only about half of the entire length of the tank. Can I use this for my NPT with the proper bulb, or should I purchase a new hood that spans the length of my tank?

2.) What kind of bulb should I buy? I know it needs to be 6500K, but a lot of the ones I am seeing online seem to say that they fit ONLY into a certain type of hood..? Are there others that will fit into any old hood?


Thanks.


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## peachii

Saber said:


> I have a couple of questions regarding lighting.
> 
> 1.) The tank I purchased off Craigslist is 45 gallons, but it came with a light/hood that is probably meant for a 20 gallon tank or so, as it is only about half of the entire length of the tank. Can I use this for my NPT with the proper bulb, or should I purchase a new hood that spans the length of my tank?
> 
> 2.) What kind of bulb should I buy? I know it needs to be 6500K, but a lot of the ones I am seeing online seem to say that they fit ONLY into a certain type of hood..? Are there others that will fit into any old hood?
> 
> 
> Thanks.


You'd probably do good with another light, either with that one or replace it. Just depends on how much light it puts out and covers the bottom of the tank. 

Depending on what size light bulbs you need so long as it's a 6500/6700K then it will work.

Most of my tanks use CFL's from Wal-Mart but the few longer flourscent lights Stone either gets from Wal-Mart or orders them online from some ebay store. He got a 4 bulb, with moonlights and a timer for less than 100.00 off of ebay.


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## Saber

Thanks a lot peachii. I noticed that the bulb I purchased at Petco says that it only fits into a certain type of hood made by that company - I think the bulb was especially made for that so I am going to have to return it. I'll look into getting another hood while I'm there too. =)


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## thesadseahorse

Can't the soil make the tank messy and dirty if it somehow gets disturbed or rooted up by something? I've been doing a lot of late night research and just discovered this. I'm kind of thinking about restoring this abandoned 40 gallon I have and turning it into a beautiful planted tank(what my developing mental image of it looks like anyways), and an NPT seems like a great option. Hard work, yes, but I can deal with that. 

(im just asking generally anyone whos experienced in this kind of thing)
Does the substrate even need any cleaning?
What kind of snails would any of you recommend? Snails multiply quite easily, can they become a big nuisance or anything? What do you do with them when you have too many and need to remove them from the tank(if this happens)?
What kind or shrimp do you recommend?
How do you go about planting? Do you just stick them in the substrate where they're touching the soil?

BTW: I feel really dumb asking, but what is anaerobic soil?


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## ringo3632

Trumpet Snails. They Hide DuringThe Day From My Understanding... And Ghost Shrimp Are Fun, Cheap And Easy To Find. I Never Cleaned The Substrate, Just Take Out Some Water. But The Old Fish LaDy Has A SWeet Thread On The WhOle Thing. That's Where I Learned. It's On This Forum


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## FishyFishy89

thesadseahorse said:


> Can't the soil make the tank messy and dirty if it somehow gets disturbed or rooted up by something? I've been doing a lot of late night research and just discovered this. I'm kind of thinking about restoring this abandoned 40 gallon I have and turning it into a beautiful planted tank(what my developing mental image of it looks like anyways), and an NPT seems like a great option. Hard work, yes, but I can deal with that.
> 
> (im just asking generally anyone whos experienced in this kind of thing)
> Does the substrate even need any cleaning?
> What kind of snails would any of you recommend? Snails multiply quite easily, can they become a big nuisance or anything? What do you do with them when you have too many and need to remove them from the tank(if this happens)?
> What kind or shrimp do you recommend?
> How do you go about planting? Do you just stick them in the substrate where they're touching the soil?
> 
> BTW: I feel really dumb asking, but what is anaerobic soil?


--Anaerobic Soil has considerably less oxygen than other types of soil. Wet soil is automatically anaerobic.
--To plant a plant, it really depends on the type of plant. Non-substrate plants do better when tied to driftwood or large rocks. For anything else, stick it in and cover the roots. If it doesn't have any roots yet, just stick it in and pinch some substrate or gravel around it to hold it as steady as you can.
--For shrimps, really any shrimp would do fine. My favorite are crystal red, cherry and amano shrimps. Ghost shrimps are a pain. They're quite small and, to me, are just unappealing. They also don't do a very good job of cleaning. My amano shrimps are algae control for my plants. Always busy keeping the plants, decor and driftwood clean.
--Snails, I perfer Malaysian Trumpet Snails. They only reproduce based off the food available. So as long as you don't over feed, they won't take over. I offer 3 slices of cucumber or yellow squash or zucchini to my 75 gallon once a week. It is consumed by the fish/snails over the course of 2-3 days.
--The soil, I don't *think* it has to be rinised. I went back to read posts to confirm this, OFL said she adds her soil dry, adds just enough water to cover the soil, then she adds her cap(tho I would 1st rinse your cap if using sand) and fills/plants the tank.


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## thesadseahorse

Thanks!

for this 40g I have a canister filter thats for up to 100 gallons. Do you think I should use it or no? Could it be detrimental to the balance of the NPT? Should I use something to keep the water moving? I have a couple of old bubblers.


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## FishyFishy89

That is more than double the filtration. What stock are you housing? If you're not housing any high waste stock or your tank isn't over stocked, I would move to an HOB or canister rated for your tank's size.


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## Neso

I recently finished my planted tank and I preformed a 50% water change but as I was adding the water back in,but my cap was disturbed and soil went everywhere. What should I do to clear the water up?


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## FishyFishy89

Neso said:


> I recently finished my planted tank and I preformed a 50% water change but as I was adding the water back in,but my cap was disturbed and soil went everywhere. What should I do to clear the water up?


Just let it settle.
Once it settles, put a plate on the substrate and pour your water over it.


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## thesadseahorse

FishyFishy89 said:


> That is more than double the filtration. What stock are you housing? If you're not housing any high waste stock or your tank isn't over stocked, I would move to an HOB or canister rated for your tank's size.


Okay. I don't plan on housing that many fish anyhow.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/whisper..._id=26542391&gclid=CK-P_8Klz7kCFeIRMwod0G4AFg would this be good?


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## FishyFishy89

That filter would be fine.


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## RowdyBetta

Has anyone ever used Miracle Grow potting mix (non-organic)?


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## FishyFishy89

Potting SOIL. Not mix. Mix means their are fertilizers that may harm your fish. Organic is best because it isn't processed with pieces that have been sprayed with chemicals


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## RowdyBetta

So something like this? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Miracle-...t-Garden-Soil-72859650/100665135#.UjiuLMZtiiw


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## FishyFishy89

I just tried searching for what I was thinking of. Apparently I got it backwards: 


> I would go with Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting *MIX* not soil. the soil may have cow manure in it and other undesirables. The mix may have some chicken poo or not, but alot of folks are using it with no issues. i've set up two tanks with it so far.


On my planted tank forum: Miracle-Gro Organic Choice 32 qt. Potting Mix-72983650 at The Home Depot is the most used/recommended.


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## RowdyBetta

Okey dokey! ^^ Thanks for your help! c:

One more thing, what are some of the best plants when starting up a NPT? I currently have water wisteria and microsword on my list. (I already have java moss in my tank.)


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## FishyFishy89

My tanks currently have:
Hygro Narrow Leaf
Wisteria
Water Sprite
Corkscrew Val
Java Moss
Ruffle Sword(any sword plant will do)
Duckweed
Salvina
Asian Water Grass

The more difficult plants I have are 
Cobomba
Ludwigia
Many pet stores claim these are easy plants, but without CO2, these plants melted in my tanks.

I've also had Anacharis. It did excellently in my betta tank, but then it just suddenly melted and I have no clue why. I'll have to retry with it now that I'm doing great with CO2.


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## RowdyBetta

Great! ^^ Thank you so much for your help! c:


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## whiskandbowl

*replied to old comment, didn't see what page I was on*

sorry. it's late and I'm tired LOL


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## Niece

Do you have to have a filter in a NPT?
Also where would be a good place to order the plants online since I live out in the woods and nothing is here lol.


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## bettaakapes

Can I add indian almond leaves to my NPT. I like how they look and what it does to the fish.


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## FishyFishy89

Yes you can. They work the same as driftwood.


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## Niece

So I don't have to have snails or shrip in it? I can just put a betta in with just plants in it and it will be fine, or do I have to do something extra to keep it going then?
Sorry if that sounded stupid or confusing i'm a noob to planted tanks and its also 2 in the morning and i'm very tired lol


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## FishyFishy89

snails and shrimps help aerate the soil.


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## platylover13

Do I have to put all of the plants on the list you gave in my tank? If so how many of each kind?


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## platylover13

I'm pretty sure anybody could answer this for me, but can I use well water in an NPT? Normally I buy my water from the store for betta tanks, because our well water killed three bettas my sister had. But in an NPT would well water be safe?


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## FishyFishy89

well water is the best kinda water for aquariums. NEVER purchase bottled water! It doesn't contain the nutrients that plants crave.


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## MattsBettas

For an NPT to work there really should be animals, and if your well water is killing fish you can't use it for a tank with fish. 

Since when is well water the best for aquariums? I know plenty of people that have a lot of issues with it...


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## FishyFishy89

MattsBettas said:


> For an NPT to work there really should be animals, and if your well water is killing fish you can't use it for a tank with fish.
> 
> Since when is well water the best for aquariums? I know plenty of people that have a lot of issues with it...


And I know plenty of people who prefer it over city water and those people have a lot of issues with city water.

Many times well water is the best because it isn't "filtered" with chemicals that may be harmful for aquariums.


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## MattsBettas

Isn't that what water conditioner is for? ;-)

In well water you can have issues with compounds like (I'm pretty sure) arsenic and iron, while city water is usually better regulated. Not saying all well water is bad... I just think you jumped the gun a bit when you said "well water is the best kinda water for aquariums".


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## FishyFishy89

Why add another chemical to your tank?
I've always been questionable about "water conditioners". I've swapped between well water and city water a few times when moving. And my tank/inhabitants DEFINITELY prefer well water.

City water is often full of chemicals that not all "water conditioners" can remove. Either way, I've found my tanks to do way better on well water and thus came to the conclusion that I've come to based off of MY experience and several other aquarists experiences.


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## carlos puron

I have a friend who adds the water directly from house without adding any conditioner and he's been doing it for years without losing any fish we live 5 min one from another I haven't try that to me the water tastes like chlorine if you try to drink it but I'm surprised that he does that and not a problem
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## platylover13

Also our well water has a little bit of salt concentration in it from where we decided to drill


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## FishyFishy89

How much salt is a little? Have you tested your well water to see what is in it and what levels they are?
Are you sure the water from the hose is going direct to the tank? He could be filling buckets/setting them aside to naturally remove the chemicals and then adding it to the tank.


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## platylover13

We'll we haven't tested it but I do know there is a little bit of salt in it (our driller said so, and I think he tested it), plus you can taste the salt if you drink from the tap


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## FishyFishy89

If you can taste it, then I wouldn't use it.


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## platylover13

That's what I figured. My mom actually told me today when I was asking about it that our salinity isn't high, and I tasted the water and couldn't taste it. It must have been our old hole that had salt


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## platylover13

So is it safe to use or not?


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## FishyFishy89

platylover13 said:


> So is it safe to use or not?


I would get your current well in use tested/see what your water currently has and go from there.


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## platylover13

kk, if not safe I will use the water I have used before, it's naturally filtered and we drink it so I think it's safe.


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## scootshoot

Thank you OFL for taking the time to create this thread! 

Am going to try my very first NPT following these directions. Will use the recently ordered 6.6 gallon Truaqua setup (minus the undergravel filter of course). Since I have 2 betta tanks already, gonna use this primarily as a plant and red cherry shrimp breeder tank.


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## Tree

So I have a question. I have gravel in my 3 gallon and 2.6 gallons that are normal size, not the small gravel like you mentioned on the info. Would that be ok for beginner plants like Anubias, Hornwort and Mondo grass plants? Also I wont need to add any co2 to the tanks at all right? I read that snails and ghost shrip will help with that?


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## Oldfishlady

Tree said:


> So I have a question. I have gravel in my 3 gallon and 2.6 gallons that are normal size, not the small gravel like you mentioned on the info. Would that be ok for beginner plants like Anubias, Hornwort and Mondo grass plants? Also I wont need to add any co2 to the tanks at all right? I read that snails and ghost shrip will help with that?


Since all the plants you have either need to be tied to something (Anubias) or used floating (Hornwort) or not used at all since it not aquatic (Mondo grass)...your gravel should be fine. For a soil based tank small diameter gravel is best or sand. 

IMO you don't need to inject CO2-especially for those plants anyway....

In your soil based systems-the natural break down or decomp will produce enough CO2 naturally for most plants-This does vary however, it depends on plant species, lights, photoperiod, stocking, soil type/amount, water changes/vacuuming....etc......With your natural planted systems once mature and thriving-are as close to a natural ecosystem that can be created in a closed system...this too can vary from system to system based on a lot of different reason.....


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## Tree

Oldfishlady said:


> Since all the plants you have either need to be tied to something (Anubias) or used floating (Hornwort) or not used at all since it not aquatic (Mondo grass)...your gravel should be fine. For a soil based tank small diameter gravel is best or sand.
> 
> IMO you don't need to inject CO2-especially for those plants anyway....
> 
> In your soil based systems-the natural break down or decomp will produce enough CO2 naturally for most plants-This does vary however, it depends on plant species, lights, photoperiod, stocking, soil type/amount, water changes/vacuuming....etc......With your natural planted systems once mature and thriving-are as close to a natural ecosystem that can be created in a closed system...this too can vary from system to system based on a lot of different reason.....



thanks so much! I am glad I found this site! I learn so much from all of you. <3


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## Oldfishlady

Tree said:


> thanks so much! I am glad I found this site! I learn so much from all of you. <3


Your welcome and did you know...way back when...a long, long time ago....."_Tree_" was my nickname.....every time I see your username...it brings back fond memory of my youth.....lol....I can't share on an open forum-especially with the younger members- how I got that nickname...but it is a pretty funny story to say the least....laffs....


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## Tree

Oldfishlady said:


> Your welcome and did you know...way back when...a long, long time ago....."_Tree_" was my nickname.....every time I see your username...it brings back fond memory of my youth.....lol....I can't share on an open forum-especially with the younger members- how I got that nickname...but it is a pretty funny story to say the least....laffs....



Oh my god! that is awesome! XD My story is a simple one. I got the nickname from my sisters. Theresa is my real name. "Tree"sa. XD you will have to note me the story. I would love to hear it.


----------



## sponge1234

Hi OFL! I have learned so much from you! But I still have a few questions. I have my 20 gallon tall set up with lots of plants that I got from peachii, and last weekend the cat jumped on the light hood and it fell on the tank and doesn't work any more. I took it apart and dried it and put it back together and it still didn't work. So my dad and I are going to home depot later to get a shop light for the tank. I want one that will have 2 daylight 6500k tube bulbs. Will this work? I also want to get some cambomba from my LFS, will I have enough lighting for the combomba? 

P.S. I have had two lamps on the tank for the plants. The plants are not showing any signs of dieing.


----------



## Trippshep

Question, I want to start a planted tank. Would I be able to get plants that have grown in a creek? ATM I don't think any are growing but in the spring time they should.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Trippshep said:


> Question, I want to start a planted tank. Would I be able to get plants that have grown in a creek? ATM I don't think any are growing but in the spring time they should.


I know many fish owners who've harvested from local water bodies. Just be sure they aren't infected. I believe some people have done a bleach/water solution dip to get them disease free. Just keep them in another tank of double declorinated water to be sure they're bleach free.
Note some plants may not handle a bleach dip and may melt away.

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----------



## Nothingness

sponge1234 said:


> Hi OFL! I have learned so much from you! But I still have a few questions. I have my 20 gallon tall set up with lots of plants that I got from peachii, and last weekend the cat jumped on the light hood and it fell on the tank and doesn't work any more. I took it apart and dried it and put it back together and it still didn't work. So my dad and I are going to home depot later to get a shop light for the tank. I want one that will have 2 daylight 6500k tube bulbs. Will this work? I also want to get some cambomba from my LFS, will I have enough lighting for the combomba?
> 
> P.S. I have had two lamps on the tank for the plants. The plants are not showing any signs of dieing.



This is what I did. I have the diamaond plate shop light 48' from home depot and was using 6500k daylight bulbs until I recently switched them up


----------



## sponge1234

Nothingness, what did you switch to? And what were your results on the plants?


----------



## CochinBrahmaLover

So I have an 18gal, and am looking into starting a NPT. So for the first month or 3 months your leave in the filter? Or do you just start off with no filter? 
2) How many plants should I get of each? Like, a ratio perhaps? A 1:3 ratio for floating plants to stem plants, or something like that? When I head to petco Ill see what they've got. 
3) What type of shrimp, and can you add them immediately? Would bamboo shrimp be ok, or should I stick to ghost shrimp? 
4) This should be the last one. What type of monitoring do you do? Do you do nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia levels, or do you just leave it alone?
5) ok I lied. How do you know when there's enough plants? 
6) and last but not least, how do you 'trim' a plant? Just cut off excess leaves? If you let it grow long enough, can you trim it and plant the trimmings? Or does that require flowering and such to get new plants? 


Thanks! I'm still debating on a betta sorotiy or just get a new male. Decisions decisions..


----------



## FishyFishy89

I believe OFL told me it should be 70% plant coverage on the floor and 10 or 20% floating plants.

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----------



## MattsBettas

> So I have an 18gal, and am looking into starting a NPT. So for the first month or 3 months your leave in the filter? Or do you just start off with no filter? *You can leave it in for the first three months to circulate water or leave it in permanently. In my small NPT I never had a filter.*
> 2) How many plants should I get of each? Like, a ratio perhaps? A 1:3 ratio for floating plants to stem plants, or something like that? When I head to petco Ill see what they've got. *Not really a ratio... I would follow the suggested percentages made by Fishy though.*
> 3) What type of shrimp, and can you add them immediately? Would bamboo shrimp be ok, or should I stick to ghost shrimp? *You don't need shrimp, but Amanos, cherry, or ghost would all work. Bamboo are picky filter feeders. Knowing the fragility of them I would personally wait until the tank is stable.*
> 4) This should be the last one. What type of monitoring do you do? Do you do nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia levels, or do you just leave it alone?* I monitor all three when starting and nitrate when it's established, and if there was to be any problems I would go back to all three. There's no reason not to, it can only help.*
> 5) ok I lied. How do you know when there's enough plants? *When your levels are good and stable.*
> 6) and last but not least, how do you 'trim' a plant? Just cut off excess leaves? If you let it grow long enough, can you trim it and plant the trimmings? Or does that require flowering and such to get new plants? *Depends entirely on the plant...*
> 
> 
> Thanks! I'm still debating on a betta sorotiy or just get a new male. Decisions decisions..


..


----------



## Vounn

Hello guys. I am setting up a soil based tank with some green rosette plants. The water became cloudy as soon I added in water, though I laid a layer of sand cap on top. Maybe it's due to me letting the water gush in continuously that the soil was eroded. Should I siphon out the cloudy water or should I just let the soil suspension settle to the bottom?


----------



## FishyFishy89

Vounn said:


> Hello guys. I am setting up a soil based tank with some green rosette plants. The water became cloudy as soon I added in water, though I laid a layer of sand cap on top. Maybe it's due to me letting the water gush in continuously that the soil was eroded. Should I siphon out the cloudy water or should I just let the soil suspension settle to the bottom?


let it settle. It is likely the pouring water disturbed your sand cap/soil.


----------



## kodawg9

So I got myself a 20 gallon long (I originally bought a 20 high but was able to just make enough space to place the 20" long) and I'm thinking about going NPT. 

I have a lot of questions before I get ready to jump in. Trying to keep this as limited as I can:

1. Do NPT's make the room the tank sits in smelly? I have a gravel only-based planted 5 gallon and there's no stench (as there shouldn't be). Just wondering if the dirt aspect of the NPT may cause a smelly tank or not.

2. I plan on using Miracle-Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix to fill about 1.5-2" as recommended by OFL. As I don't yet have plants, my plan was to simply just place the soil in the tank for now by itself (no water, no plants, etc.) Just wanted to confirm that leaving soil sitting in a tank won't eliminate the nutrients the soil has. I plan on leaving the soil in for about a week or so as I wait for all my other materials to be delivered.

3. I anticipate having driftwood, some rocks, cave-like ornaments and obviously the plants in the tank. I plan on placing the driftwood on top of the 2" soil before capping. However, with the stem plants, should I add them in the soil before adding in play sand as the cap? Or should I cap it first, then stick in the plants through the soil and cap? 

#3 is based on the assumption that I'd be putting in plants, ornaments, etc. first before putting in any water. Is adding all the plants, ornaments, etc before putting in any water the correct way to approach? Or should I add some water before aquascaping?

4. I planned on adding fish/shrimp in after a week or two of the NPT aquarium being set up. However, I know that the fish's bioload plays a role in providing nourishment for the plants. Would adding in some fish pellets sufficiently provide nutrients for the plants? Or would I need to quickly add in fish to the planted tank so the system doesn't crash from the beginning?

5. In terms of live fish, I planned on the following: 1 male betta, 10 harlequin rasboras, either cories or otos (leaning towards 6-7 cories), and amano shrimp. If I use play sand as the cap, I have to watch out for potential digging by fish. Are cories or oto's known to dig through sand and create a little mishap in the tank? 

6. Part of my intrigue with going NPT is how close a mature system can be to a complete ecosystem (obviously you can't completely make this set up self-sustaining. Once mature, what kind of maintenance needs to be performed? Obviously the water changes and plant trimmings come to mind, but anything else?

Appreciate your help! I've researched this process for a month or so now but I just want to make sure I have everything covered.


----------



## Nothingness

kodawg9 said:


> So I got myself a 20 gallon long (I originally bought a 20 high but was able to just make enough space to place the 20" long) and I'm thinking about going NPT.
> 
> I have a lot of questions before I get ready to jump in. Trying to keep this as limited as I can:
> 
> 1. Do NPT's make the room the tank sits in smelly? I have a gravel only-based planted 5 gallon and there's no stench (as there shouldn't be). Just wondering if the dirt aspect of the NPT may cause a smelly tank or not.
> 
> 2. I plan on using Miracle-Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix to fill about 1.5-2" as recommended by OFL. As I don't yet have plants, my plan was to simply just place the soil in the tank for now by itself (no water, no plants, etc.) Just wanted to confirm that leaving soil sitting in a tank won't eliminate the nutrients the soil has. I plan on leaving the soil in for about a week or so as I wait for all my other materials to be delivered.
> 
> 3. I anticipate having driftwood, some rocks, cave-like ornaments and obviously the plants in the tank. I plan on placing the driftwood on top of the 2" soil before capping. However, with the stem plants, should I add them in the soil before adding in play sand as the cap? Or should I cap it first, then stick in the plants through the soil and cap?
> 
> #3 is based on the assumption that I'd be putting in plants, ornaments, etc. first before putting in any water. Is adding all the plants, ornaments, etc before putting in any water the correct way to approach? Or should I add some water before aquascaping?
> 
> 4. I planned on adding fish/shrimp in after a week or two of the NPT aquarium being set up. However, I know that the fish's bioload plays a role in providing nourishment for the plants. Would adding in some fish pellets sufficiently provide nutrients for the plants? Or would I need to quickly add in fish to the planted tank so the system doesn't crash from the beginning?
> 
> 5. In terms of live fish, I planned on the following: 1 male betta, 10 harlequin rasboras, either cories or otos (leaning towards 6-7 cories), and amano shrimp. If I use play sand as the cap, I have to watch out for potential digging by fish. Are cories or oto's known to dig through sand and create a little mishap in the tank?
> 
> 6. Part of my intrigue with going NPT is how close a mature system can be to a complete ecosystem (obviously you can't completely make this set up self-sustaining. Once mature, what kind of maintenance needs to be performed? Obviously the water changes and plant trimmings come to mind, but anything else?
> 
> Appreciate your help! I've researched this process for a month or so now but I just want to make sure I have everything covered.


Be sure to sift the soil first to remove all the wood bits so they don't make a mess of your tank later.

1. A smelly tank is a dirty tank. Keep up with your weekly water changes and you will have no problems. You get the occasional gas pocket in the soil that smells like a bad fart when it releases.

2. Shouldn't be an issue.

3. Cap the whole thing first. It you decide to move the hardscape later on you will not have to deal with the mess from the soil floating everywhere. I also found a thick layer of sand is best about 1 - 1.5 inch. Again helps to prevent soil release when the gas bubbles release.

#3. Fill the tank about 1/4 full by placing a plate on the sand and pour the water over it to not disturb the sand/soil. This makes planting a lot easier. Use tweezers to help plant if you can.

4. Put them in right away. Do some research on the silent cycle

5. The betta will probably end up eating the rasbora at some point, if not right away. General idea is if a fish is small enough to be eaten it will. I have no experience with cories or ottos. Amanos are great and they tend to grow to big to be a snack. The other thing u want are Malaysian trumpet snails. They burrow in the soil and release the gas pockets so you don't have to manually. They work like the worms do in a garden.

6. Releasing the gas pockets if you don't have snails to do it for u.


----------



## FishyFishy89

OFL recommends to not put the fish in right away. I think she had stated to give the tank a month to settle any issues and to test your water daily to be sure there isn't any problems.

I've also never ever heard of a carnivorous fish eating plants. Its highly unlikely any betta would eat plants. They barely eat peas that people ignorantly feed them.

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## Nothingness

Taken from ofl's initial post in this thread...If you properly setup the soil based tank-you can safely add all your livestock on the same day you set it up.

Also a rasbora is a fish not a raspberry


----------



## Nothingness

Taken from ofl's initial post in this thread...If you properly setup the soil based tank-you can safely add all your livestock on the same day you set it up.


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## FishyFishy89

Nothingness said:


> Taken from ofl's initial post in this thread...If you properly setup the soil based tank-you can safely add all your livestock on the same day you set it up.
> 
> Also a rasbora is a fish not a raspberry


Yeah, that means planting it 100%. Not the min 70% like she's noted before. Note that your soil will decomp and release stuff into your tank, so waiting and testing is your best option.

Lastly, for some unknown reason, I thought you were talking about a type of stem plant. And still remains, I've yet to see a betta eat a fish like that. Shrimps and snails, yes. But not fish like that.


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## kodawg9

Appreciate the response nothingness. That helped a lot


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## MattsBettas

I agree with Fishy on waiting, especially if the plants were grown in different conditions then the tank they are going into. Soil can cause an ammonia spike suddenly if plants aren't actively growing. 

IMO why risk it if you don't have to?


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## Nothingness

FishyFishy89 said:


> Yeah, that means planting it 100%. Not the min 70% like she's noted before. Note that your soil will decomp and release stuff into your tank, so waiting and testing is your best option.
> 
> Lastly, for some unknown reason, I thought you were talking about a type of stem plant. And still remains, I've yet to see a betta eat a fish like that. Shrimps and snails, yes. But not fish like that.


My betta took down 3 full grown puppies.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Nothingness said:


> My betta took down 3 full grown puppies.


puppies?? O.O


----------



## Rauddys809

FishyFishy89 said:


> puppies?? O.O



i think he ment guppies LOL. 

and i have a question can i use gravel for plants insted of soil?


----------



## Aus

Nothingness said:


> My betta took down 3 full grown puppies.


I'm seeing a dog fighting ring, with a little 1 g bowl in the middle.

:rofl:

Anyways, I was wondering where OFL is at? I haven't seen much of her around since I came back -- hoping everything's okay with her.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Rauddys809 said:


> i think he ment guppies LOL.
> 
> and i have a question can i use gravel for plants insted of soil?


absolutely. I am using gravel in my 2nd betta's tank and his plants are doing quite well. Just be sure to add some root tabs every coupla months or so. But we plants like Swords, add a root tab every month.

Course, the whole thing of using soil is what makes it a NPT.


----------



## Rauddys809

FishyFishy89 said:


> absolutely. I am using gravel in my 2nd betta's tank and his plants are doing quite well. Just be sure to add some root tabs every coupla months or so. But we plants like Swords, add a root tab every month.
> 
> Course, the whole thing of using soil is what makes it a NPT.


well i want to use soil but i don't know a lot of it. so I'm a bit scared and i don't know what i need.

one of the experience member should definitely make a guide!! if their isn't one already. what are root tab i no very little about plants I'm new to the live plants always used plastic ones till they ripped one of my betta fins then i decided to use live plants idk what I'm getting my self into I'm just trying to get the most knowledge i could get  so if anyone is willing to help me thought the process all help is welcomed this way


----------



## FishyFishy89

Rauddys809 said:


> well i want to use soil but i don't know a lot of it. so I'm a bit scared and i don't know what i need.
> 
> one of the experience member should definitely make a guide!! if their isn't one already. what are root tab i no very little about plants I'm new to the live plants always used plastic ones till they ripped one of my betta fins then i decided to use live plants idk what I'm getting my self into I'm just trying to get the most knowledge i could get  so if anyone is willing to help me thought the process all help is welcomed this way


That's what this is!
Just read the 1st page. OFL covers just about everything.

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## rsskylight04

Nothingness said:


> My betta took down 3 full grown puppies.


That's maybe the most hillarious typo ever! Imagine a betta eating three puppies! HA! And full grown puppies would be called dogs. 

But seriously, that's pretty impressive for a betta to take out adult guppies.


----------



## n25philly

I just got a 20 gallon tank and want to do a planted tank. I'm putting this in my office at work and the big possible issue with that is lighting. The only place to put it is in the window. It gets pretty good light on a sunny day, but with it being winter time I wonder if it will get enough light. on the days that aren't sunny. Should I get a daylight balanced light for it and just leave it off on sunny days? I feel like I understand most of the requirements of this kind of tank except for the lighting. What do people suggest?


----------



## Rauddys809

i was wondering where can i get the soil? and the sand at i would like to get my tank planted the right way this weekend


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## n25philly

You can get the soil pretty much anywhere. Any kind of home improvement store like a Lowes or home depot. I got some organic soil the other day at a walmart.


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## FishyFishy89

Rauddys809 said:


> i was wondering where can i get the soil? and the sand at i would like to get my tank planted the right way this weekend


My sand is playsand from home depot. It is the kind of sand that is used in sandboxes for kids. Other people have also used black blasting sand. As with all substrate, rinse in a bucket until the water comes out clean.


----------



## Nothingness

n25philly said:


> I just got a 20 gallon tank and want to do a planted tank. I'm putting this in my office at work and the big possible issue with that is lighting. The only place to put it is in the window. It gets pretty good light on a sunny day, but with it being winter time I wonder if it will get enough light. on the days that aren't sunny. Should I get a daylight balanced light for it and just leave it off on sunny days? I feel like I understand most of the requirements of this kind of tank except for the lighting. What do people suggest?



Usually having a tank with direct sunlight is a recipe for algae. It will also make it difficult to maintain a steady water temp. It will cool in the winter and be too hot in the summer. Lighting will depend on what type of plants your looking for.


----------



## n25philly

I've had a really small tank in that spot for nearly a month now and have been surprised by how stable the temperature has been. The weather has been all over the place and the biggest change I've seen is 1 degree f. It's a sealed window (can't be opened) so maybe that's why. The tank I'm replacing was heavily planted (but not a NPT) and I haven't seen any algae. My main concern is light as some of the plants have struggled a little. It could be that there just wasn't enough nutrients being supplied to support them all though.


----------



## Nothingness

If your just using gravel with plant then fertilizer and root tabs become a necessity.


----------



## johnnymillenium

I'd really like to start a NPT with my 2.5 gal which has been housing my male betta for over a year and just wanted to make sure I have all the finer points correct. So because its a smaller tank how many shrimp or snails should I get as a minimum? Would I be okay with just shrimp instead of a combination of shrimp and snails? I'm just worried about having to constantly take care of the snails overpopulating because it is such a small tank. and then I need to have 3-4 stem plants being at least 3 diff species? I've got a moss ball, and what i think are an anubias and java fern. Hopefully it doesn't get too crowded in there ^.^'


----------



## sponge1234

Hello!! 
I have a npt that has been set up for 2-3 months and I went to have breakfast this morning and looked at it, and it was really cloudy. Is this normal? How do I get rid if the cloudynes?


----------



## Araielle

Well! I just ordered some plants, got my tank (10g) this morning & ordered some MTS. I just need to go pick up a light tomorrow & some dirt & sand. I'm wanting to get some shrimp ordered for it soon. I just have to figure out what shrimp would be best with the black sand. Then I can go get another beautiful beta! ^_^ Thank you for the thread, OFL! Thanks to all of you who asked questions, too. Reading through the thread pretty much answered any questions that I had so far.


----------



## Tree

FishyFishy89 said:


> My sand is playsand from home depot. It is the kind of sand that is used in sandboxes for kids. Other people have also used black blasting sand. As with all substrate, rinse in a bucket until the water comes out clean.



so Play sand will be ok for a Natural Planted Tank? I was thinking about Organic soil, would they work both just the same?


----------



## Araielle

@Tree - As I understand it...you'd use both the organic soil (making sure it doesn't have any type of fertilizers) & the sand on top of that. Seems like folks have used play sand successfully on top of organic soils. 


I do have a question. I'm trying to find things for my hardscape, but so far all I have is some cholla catus wood. Are there any recommendations as for the types of rock & other items? I don't have any streams nearby or I'd just go grab some stuff. I'd love some advice for this. So far I'll have one male beta, some MTS and assassin snails & a few shrimp in case there is something special for them that might be nice.  Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## FishyFishy89

Tree said:


> so Play sand will be ok for a Natural Planted Tank? I was thinking about Organic soil, would they work both just the same?


It's obviously working fine for my tank. Tho I do give an entire root tab to the lotus plant and smash 2 other tabs/spread them around in my substrate.


----------



## Tree

Araielle said:


> @Tree - As I understand it...you'd use both the organic soil (making sure it doesn't have any type of fertilizers) & the sand on top of that. Seems like folks have used play sand successfully on top of organic soils.
> 
> what about gravel on top of organic Soil? would that work? right now I have white gravel.
> 
> I do have a question. I'm trying to find things for my hardscape, but so far all I have is some cholla catus wood. Are there any recommendations as for the types of rock & other items? I don't have any streams nearby or I'd just go grab some stuff. I'd love some advice for this. So far I'll have one male beta, some MTS and assassin snails & a few shrimp in case there is something special for them that might be nice.  Thanks in advance for your help!





FishyFishy89 said:


> It's obviously working fine for my tank. Tho I do give an entire root tab to the lotus plant and smash 2 other tabs/spread them around in my substrate.


yeah I wanna add less Ferts to my tanks. Not sure what would be easier. ferts or no ferts using soil.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Then I think going soil would be the best option for you.


----------



## Tree

FishyFishy89 said:


> Then I think going soil would be the best option for you.


I think I will do that in the spring. Some of the plants were just put in. =)


----------



## kman

Sand is fine, but needs root tabs. Same with gravel. You pretty much need root tabs and ferts with _anything_ other than soil (or expensive formulated aquarium soil substitutes like ADA Aquasoil), which brings it's own built-in fertilizer and nutrients. 

The down side to soil is its a bit of a pain to get set up and cycled, plus if anything gets uprooted its a mess of cloudy water, but it's amazing for plant growth.


----------



## Joey Fish

you said to use normal soil, then.. pool filter sand, could i add a sprinkling off gravel on top as a decorative layer


----------



## Araielle

Oldfishlady said:


> I place my dry soil-then add water-just enough to cover the dirt-then I add my dry sand-then I fill with water-drain-repeat until clear-Then with about 3-4inches of water-I plant. Then fill, drain if needed-refill...etc...until clear-usually only take 2-3 water changes-if done correctly.
> 
> I use my free hand to divert the water flow so not to kick up the dirt/sand or depending on the hard scape item-I might direct the water flow on it.
> 
> I let the water settle for at least 5 min between changes to allow the sand to settle.
> 
> I already have my hard scape in place before I add the sand cap
> 
> I also might add more sand if needed after I am done and sometimes I will use a small handful of gravel or larger rock at the roots of stem plants to help keep them in place.
> 
> I like to plant my rosette plants (swords, crypts, sags, vals..etc...) after the cap-you want their crown to be slightly above the substrate-
> Stem plants can be planted before or after the cap-I have found it easier to plant after the cap.
> 
> When I make the water changes for setup-I don't drain 100% of the water-I may only remove 50-75%-then refill-this will help avoid too much disturbance of the soil/sand or up-rooting plants.




I'm just going by what I read, but from what OFL says above, she's used gravel around the base of plants.

In reading about certain species that like to dig or nudge the sand, you'll want to have room for them to do that, but I don't see what a few pebbles would hurt. Anyone else have any input on this?


----------



## kman

There's no problem to use gravel around the base of the plants, if that's what you want to do. Any inert media (gravel, eco complete, fluorite, sand, whatever) you want can go on top of the dirt... it's all the same.


----------



## Tree

Has anyone used this kind of soil for tanks? Promix?

at Manards they have some in stock and it's organic. I could not find anything saying added Ferts or chemicals.

here is a site that talks about it: http://jetta17.hubpages.com/hub/The-Best-Potting-Soils-Top-Five-Commercial-Soil-Mixes

· *Ingredients:* Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Sea-based Compost, Limestone, Perlite, and Mycorise.

I think this is the picture of the bag:


----------



## FishyFishy89

If I remember correctly, there was something about peat moss that could alter your pH....


----------



## Tree

Hmmm I'll look into it further. I have not bought it yet, still looking for the right soil. =)


----------



## MattsBettas

Peat moss lowers pH. Not a bad thing for bettas unless your water is already really soft and acidic. 

The worst part about that mix is the perlite... Those will float and could give you some trouble.


----------



## Tree

MattsBettas said:


> Peat moss lowers pH. Not a bad thing for bettas unless your water is already really soft and acidic.
> 
> The worst part about that mix is the perlite... Those will float and could give you some trouble.



right now my PH is about 8.0 so Maybe that will work out for the best. =)

what if I soak the soil in a bucket to get rid of the perlite? I need to unfreeze the stuff as well. XD Its a big block!


----------



## FishyFishy89

Tree said:


> right now my PH is about 8.0 so Maybe that will work out for the best. =)
> 
> what if I soak the soil in a bucket to get rid of the perlite? I need to unfreeze the stuff as well. XD Its a big block!


Well then that might not be half bad. Your pH might MAYBE reach 7.5(tiny chance) and it won't be that bad if it does.


Is'nt perlite a type of calcium? I think some plants like having calcium? Or was it a type of iron? I think I remember reading a coupla articles about using perlite for aquatic plants.


Are you considering capping it? It may not be half bad with it capped.


----------



## kman

IIRC, Perlite floats, and it won't stay capped. Once it floats off, just remove it and you'll be in good shape.


----------



## Tree

FishyFishy89 said:


> Well then that might not be half bad. Your pH might MAYBE reach 7.5(tiny chance) and it won't be that bad if it does.
> 
> 
> Is'nt perlite a type of calcium? I think some plants like having calcium? Or was it a type of iron? I think I remember reading a coupla articles about using perlite for aquatic plants.
> 
> 
> Are you considering capping it? It may not be half bad with it capped.


I am going to cap it with the white gravel that is already in my tanks. I'm soaking the soil now and a lot of the white perlite are floating. I already have a bucket full of normal soil for two of my tanks. 8D 



kman said:


> IIRC, Perlite floats, and it won't stay capped. Once it floats off, just remove it and you'll be in good shape.



Sweet thanks! its taking some time soaking the soil but this will make is oh so much easier once I change the tanks substrate.


----------



## summersea

Okay I need some help. I just set up a NPT 5g tank 4 days ago. I am getting a reading of 1ppm of ammonia. From reading this thread all the way through I was expecting zero's across the board for water parameters. Here is what I did to set up so maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong and/or how I can fix my parameters to make them more stable:

- 1" of miracle gro organic potting mix
- 1/2" cap of petco black sand

Plants include:
- anubias attached to driftwood
- java moss attached to driftwood
- 1 crypto wendtii red
- 5 stems (1 bunch) bacopa carolinia
- 10 stems (2 bunches) wisteria
- 5 stems (1 bunch) hygrophila corymbosa
- 1 stem cabomba
- 1 dwarf lily 
- 4 Pygmy chain swords

I have been poking the soil every other day to keep it from being anaerobic. I also introduced 6 red cherry shrimp. I did a 50% water chane before putting them in to lower the ammonia level. The tank has a Marina Slim S10 filter with only Fluval sponge inserted. 

I have attached a pic if the tank. Any help woul be greatly appreciated as this is my first attempt at an NPT and I don't want to bring home a new betta until I am sure it is safe. Thank you!


----------



## kman

summersea said:


> Okay I need some help. I just set up a NPT 5g tank 4 days ago. I am getting a reading of 1ppm of ammonia. From reading this thread all the way through I was expecting zero's across the board for water parameters. Here is what I did to set up so maybe someone can tell me what I did wrong and/or how I can fix my parameters to make them more stable:
> 
> - 1" of miracle gro organic potting mix
> - 1/2" cap of petco black sand
> 
> Plants include:
> - anubias attached to driftwood
> - java moss attached to driftwood
> - 1 crypto wendtii red
> - 5 stems (1 bunch) bacopa carolinia
> - 10 stems (2 bunches) wisteria
> - 5 stems (1 bunch) hygrophila corymbosa
> - 1 stem cabomba
> - 1 dwarf lily
> - 4 Pygmy chain swords
> 
> I have been poking the soil every other day to keep it from being anaerobic. I also introduced 6 red cherry shrimp. I did a 50% water chane before putting them in to lower the ammonia level. The tank has a Marina Slim S10 filter with only Fluval sponge inserted.
> 
> I have attached a pic if the tank. Any help woul be greatly appreciated as this is my first attempt at an NPT and I don't want to bring home a new betta until I am sure it is safe. Thank you!


Miracle Gro has a lot of organic material in it that decomposes, and it's normal for there to be ammonia present for a while, during the time that the tank is still getting established. You just set it up 4 days ago, so that's not surprising. It'll be a little while before the tank is cycled, then your readings should fall in line.


----------



## summersea

Okay, should I wait on getting a Betta until the tank cycles then? I know a betta along with the RCS and snails are supposed to be in place for a NPT to work as a closed ecosystem (or as close as we can get) but don't want to put a betta at risk.


----------



## Joey Fish

Wow the tank is beautiful, but if ammonia stays high for a bit then I would hold off on putting the betta in until the levels even out


----------



## FishyFishy89

I would wait, yes.

It takes about a month or so for a tank to cycle completely. Be sure to test min weekly. It is preferred to test daily.


----------



## summersea

Okay, waiting it is!

Has anyone had any luck with using Stability or other bacterial starter additives to make the cycle happen faster in a NPT tank?


----------



## FishyFishy89

summersea said:


> Okay, waiting it is!
> 
> Has anyone had any luck with using Stability or other bacterial starter additives to make the cycle happen faster in a NPT tank?


I absolutely love SeaChem. But I have only 1 issue with their Stability product. You never know how long its been made and on the shelf. The longer it sits, the less useable the bacteria is.
You have lots of good stuff in your soil. The cycle will happen and products like stability may only knock off a week or less to your cycle.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## summersea

Thanks for the reply Fishyfishy! I actually just picked up some stability before looking at this thread again. I bought it from a new pet store that just opened in town so hopefully it is a fairly new bottle (though goodness knows how long it sat in a warehouse...). But since I bought it I am going to go ahead and give it a try. I figure since I already have the RCS (which I wish I hadn't been rushed and did my water testing BEFORE I brought them home but that is what I get) and I want to get it cycled as quickly as possible so I hopefully don't lose my little guys!


----------



## FishyFishy89

Yeah, it doesn't hurt to give it a try. It doesn't have anything that'll harm your tank if it's no longer useful.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## summersea

That is what I was hoping - that even if it didn't work it wouldn't hurt anything either. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Tree

Is it normal for some dirt partials to float up to the top once you make a NPT? and if so should I scoop them out or will the debris float down later?


----------



## MattsBettas

Yea it's normal, especially if your cap isn't too thick. You can scoop them out if you want.


----------



## Tree

MattsBettas said:


> Yea it's normal, especially if your cap isn't too thick. You can scoop them out if you want.



Sweet thanks so much. Will the water clear up as well? The first time I tried the NPT I had the dirt wet which was a bad idea. The whole water turned back and was not settling down like the second try. XD


----------



## Tree

WHOOO my first NPT and the water cleared! the plants look a little pathetic and the dirt looks a little slanted but oh well. cross your fingers for my plants to feel better!


----------



## Joey Fish

Hey it is gonna be great once the plants grow in!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Araielle

I think I made my dirt too thick. It's organic soil with black sand. I'm mostly curious if this is too many plants. I have another tank to move some plants into. Vex seems to enjoy weaving in and out of them & resting in the naja grass. You can't really tell, but there are two driftwoods a couple small cholla wood & some rocks, so there is room between the plants. I couldn't get a clear picture of them from the top, though because of the duckweed and amazon frogbit. 

There is 1 male CT betta, MTS, assassin snails & some ramshorn & pond smails that rode in on the naja grass. I had an order of shrimp, but that fell through, so there aren't any in there yet. 


















So am I doing this right? lol


----------



## kman

^^ I see lots of tanks that are little overgrown jungles. As long as you keep them trimmed enough that there is still room for your betta to move, it should be fine!

Note that with that much duckweed, your plants aren't going to get much light. You might want to thin that down a bit. (You'll need to do this regularly, because duckweed multiplies like crazy and will always try to fill the space up)


----------



## Araielle

kman said:


> ^^ I see lots of tanks that are little overgrown jungles. As long as you keep them trimmed enough that there is still room for your betta to move, it should be fine!
> 
> Note that with that much duckweed, your plants aren't going to get much light. You might want to thin that down a bit. (You'll need to do this regularly, because duckweed multiplies like crazy and will always try to fill the space up)


Thank you. Just cleared some duckweed off. I have more than I know what to do with lol. Guess I need to trim a bit, too.


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

Just for future reference, how would one dispose of duckweed - I know it's taking over some of the bodies of water in my area, I would prefer to not contribute to that!!!


----------



## FishyFishy89

haveyouhadyourteayet said:


> Just for future reference, how would one dispose of duckweed - I know it's taking over some of the bodies of water in my area, I would prefer to not contribute to that!!!


Put it in a container and let it dry out in the sun. Once it is dried out, wrap it up and zip lock baggie it and throw it out.


----------



## kman

haveyouhadyourteayet said:


> Just for future reference, how would one dispose of duckweed - I know it's taking over some of the bodies of water in my area, I would prefer to not contribute to that!!!


The BEST way is to find a friend with goldfish. They love to eat the stuff, and it's very healthy for them.

The way Fishy mentioned works, too, but it's slow and I would worry about it blowing away outside, before it's totally dried out and dead.

Simplest way, IMO, is just to put in a good glass container, like a pyrex measuring cup, with about an inch of water, and boil the heck out it in the microwave... probably 5-8 minutes should suffice to utterly kill it. Then just toss it in your flowerbed and let it break down into fertilizer.


----------



## FishyFishy89

lol, i forget, not everyone has a screen in balcony. You can also put a lid on the container.

But yes, goldies love it. I've told Oly and Koimaiden that I'll mail them my duckweed for their fishys.


----------



## Tree

Joey Fish said:


> Hey it is gonna be great once the plants grow in!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks =) I sure hope so! ^^


----------



## gracierat

Looks great Tree! Araielle, I had no idea duckweed was so tiny! I have frog bit as well, but was considering getting duckweed too, but I don't think I will! seems like it would be a pain to do anything in the tank without it sticking to everything, my frogbit is bad enough!  Your tanks is beautiful!


----------



## Tree

thanks =) 

I do have a question though, I heard that the dirt can cause ammonia spikes, do I have to poke the sustrate at times to help release the bubbles or should I just leave it be and just do water changes everyday or both? One of my Nerite snails are not doing so good and I hope it survives. I had to do a quick water change from the high ammonia spike in one of the tanks. The Nitrate is a little over 10 ppm. Does that mean the tank is still cycled but the dirt it creating ammonia? And how long will it be until the dirt stops producing ammonia?

PS: I used prime on all of my four tanks and all seem good. ^^


----------



## FishyFishy89

gracierat said:


> Looks great Tree! Araielle, I had no idea duckweed was so tiny! I have frog bit as well, but was considering getting duckweed too, but I don't think I will! seems like it would be a pain to do anything in the tank without it sticking to everything, my frogbit is bad enough!  Your tanks is beautiful!


Duckweed can get that tiny. Mostly duckweed from ponds is that tiny. But most aquarium duckweed is about the size of a penny or slightly smaller.


----------



## kman

FishyFishy89 said:


> Duckweed can get that tiny. Mostly duckweed from ponds is that tiny. But most aquarium duckweed is about the size of a penny or slightly smaller.


No, there are simply two different types of duckweed, and they're both called "duckweed". There's the larger type (penny size), and the smaller type (tiny, ~2mm per leaf max). I'm sure there is a scientific name for each that offers the distinction, but I haven't bothered to look it up.

My aquarium has the smaller type, and that's what my LFS sells. Started off with just a few, in a circle of green smaller than a quarter. 

Within a month, every couple weeks (sometimes a little sooner) I have to scoop some out and give them to my secretary to feed her goldfish.

Tiny 2 gal Fluval Spec, stock LED light (not a great light, but suffices for low light plants like anubias and java fern). This is as dense I let it get, else too much light is blocked.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Sorry, I haven't seen the smaller variety anywhere else but in wild ponds.


----------



## Araielle

gracierat said:


> Looks great Tree! Araielle, I had no idea duckweed was so tiny! I have frog bit as well, but was considering getting duckweed too, but I don't think I will! seems like it would be a pain to do anything in the tank without it sticking to everything, my frogbit is bad enough!  Your tanks is beautiful!


Thanks! I want to clean it up a bit, but I'm really enjoying it so far & Vex is, too. I plan on setting up another soon. ^_^ I just want to make sure this one goes well first.


----------



## mart

kman said:


> No, there are simply two different types of duckweed, and they're both called "duckweed". There's the larger type (penny size), and the smaller type (tiny, ~2mm per leaf max). I'm sure there is a scientific name for each that offers the distinction, but I haven't bothered to look it up.
> 
> My aquarium has the smaller type, and that's what my LFS sells. Started off with just a few, in a circle of green smaller than a quarter.
> 
> Within a month, every couple weeks (sometimes a little sooner) I have to scoop some out and give them to my secretary to feed her goldfish.
> 
> Tiny 2 gal Fluval Spec, stock LED light (not a great light, but suffices for low light plants like anubias and java fern). This is as dense I let it get, else too much light is blocked.


I noticed you have a Cobalt in the sump area of your tank. Does it keep the temp in the main tank? I tried putting mine back there, and it wasn't doing it.


----------



## kman

mart said:


> I noticed you have a Cobalt in the sump area of your tank. Does it keep the temp in the main tank? I tried putting mine back there, and it wasn't doing it.


Yup, my tank temps are rock solid. The sump part of the Spec tanks (the whole line) is the main place where owners tend to put the heaters. Water heats up in that section, and then gets pumped out into the main tank. Seems to work fine.


----------



## mart

kman said:


> Yup, my tank temps are rock solid. The sump part of the Spec tanks (the whole line) is the main place where owners tend to put the heaters. Water heats up in that section, and then gets pumped out into the main tank. Seems to work fine.


I have the Spec III, don't know why it got so hot back there, and not in the main tank. Might give it another shot.
Thanks


----------



## kittenfish

Tree said:


> thanks =)
> 
> I do have a question though, I heard that the dirt can cause ammonia spikes, do I have to poke the sustrate at times to help release the bubbles or should I just leave it be and just do water changes everyday or both? One of my Nerite snails are not doing so good and I hope it survives. I had to do a quick water change from the high ammonia spike in one of the tanks. The Nitrate is a little over 10 ppm. Does that mean the tank is still cycled but the dirt it creating ammonia? And how long will it be until the dirt stops producing ammonia?
> 
> PS: I used prime on all of my four tanks and all seem good. ^^


Poke the substrate and do water changes. I had high ammonia/nitrites for the first two weeks (using Miracle Gro), during which I did lots of water changes and added extra Prime in between. I'm currently mineralizing some soil for my next tank, which is supposed to reduce initial spikes and algae.


----------



## Tree

kittenfish said:


> Poke the substrate and do water changes. I had high ammonia/nitrites for the first two weeks (using Miracle Gro), during which I did lots of water changes and added extra Prime in between. I'm currently mineralizing some soil for my next tank, which is supposed to reduce initial spikes and algae.


thanks =D 

right now everything looks fine. One of my poor Nerite snails got a beating from the ammonia spike I missed. But now he is moving around a little more. I am just lucky that it didn't bother my little girl Perch. 

here are my four NPT setups. I had to upgrade one of my lights though, it was too low for the plants.


----------



## kittenfish

What lights are those? I'm looking for something for a 3.5 gallon.


----------



## DBanana

The water has cleared up nicely on the new 5g.


----------



## Tree

kittenfish said:


> What lights are those? I'm looking for something for a 3.5 gallon.



the top right tank is a 3 gallon that has a 3.5 wat LED light: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DWCSY7E/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would go for that for an LED, though I heard that these work very well: 
http://www.amazon.com/Fluval-Mini-Power-Compact-Lamp/dp/B004QSV8XK/ref=pd_sbs_petsupplies_12

but it was too expensive for my taste and I was reading that the light burns out rather quickly.


----------



## Mashiro

Tree said:


> thanks =D
> 
> right now everything looks fine. One of my poor Nerite snails got a beating from the ammonia spike I missed. But now he is moving around a little more. I am just lucky that it didn't bother my little girl Perch.
> 
> here are my four NPT setups. I had to upgrade one of my lights though, it was too low for the plants.



Tree, where did you get those bottom two tanks? I like them a lot, but can't seem to find them online. Also what size are they?


----------



## Araielle

Just now getting around to posting this. I don't want to leave the sponge filter in there. I also don't want to add many more plants. I'm thinking maybe some dwarf hair grass or something on the bottom, but I don't want to take any swimming room up for the fish. I will be adding a heater. Should I go ahead and remove the filter seeing how I don't want to leave it in there? I was thinking the good bacteria would live in it and if I take it out it won't be good for the tank. Thoughts & advice are appreciated.


----------



## kman

Mashiro said:


> Tree, where did you get those bottom two tanks? I like them a lot, but can't seem to find them online. Also what size are they?


I saw those at PetSmart the other day. Top Fin, I think about 2.5 gals?

EDIT: Yup:

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=20221256&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No


----------



## FishyFishy89

I just found a brilliant idea to make dirting an established tank easy!
This is from SlappyMcFish on MAC
"Mix the dirt with a little water (enough to make a thick mud). Pour it in a shallow pan to a depth of about 1" or so and freeze it. You can do several smaller ones or one large one and cut it into squares (6X6", 8X8", etc).You can then take the frozen flat squares of dirt and place them in the tank by shimmying them under the substrate or moving the substrate aside and placing the frozen dirt on the tank bottom and recovering them with the substrate. Work quickly as the frozen dirt will begin to thaw immediately in the tank water."

To put this into work, just remove about 50% of your water to make working in the tank easier, remove all plants. Can also remove the fish if you want to and have fun in your substrate!


----------



## kman

FishyFishy89 said:


> I just found a brilliant idea to make dirting an established tank easy!
> This is from SlappyMcFish on MAC
> "Mix the dirt with a little water (enough to make a thick mud). Pour it in a shallow pan to a depth of about 1" or so and freeze it. You can do several smaller ones or one large one and cut it into squares (6X6", 8X8", etc).You can then take the frozen flat squares of dirt and place them in the tank by shimmying them under the substrate or moving the substrate aside and placing the frozen dirt on the tank bottom and recovering them with the substrate. Work quickly as the frozen dirt will begin to thaw immediately in the tank water."
> 
> To put this into work, just remove about 50% of your water to make working in the tank easier, remove all plants. Can also remove the fish if you want to and have fun in your substrate!


I think disturbing the substrate that much would likely produce a lot of mulm in the water column and lead to water quality issues. Probably best to empty the tank completely, and wash the substrate thoroughly (using treated water, of course, so as to not kill all the beneficial bacteria) before replacing it, and then replanting. Also, that much ice in the tank is going to drop the water temps precipitously, which can lead to Ich, so best to get all that done and the tank refilled, water calm, clear and re-heated, before returning anything living. The tank will almost certainly go through a mini-cycle, so will need to watch for ammonia spikes and do a lot of water changes for the first week.


----------



## FishyFishy89

kman said:


> I think disturbing the substrate that much would likely produce a lot of mulm in the water column and lead to water quality issues. Probably best to empty the tank completely, and wash the substrate thoroughly (using treated water, of course, so as to not kill all the beneficial bacteria) before replacing it, and then replanting. Also, that much ice in the tank is going to drop the water temps precipitously, which can lead to Ich, so best to get all that done and the tank refilled, water calm, clear and re-heated, before returning anything living. The tank will almost certainly go through a mini-cycle, so will need to watch for ammonia spikes and do a lot of water changes for the first week.


The soil is supposed to be capped anyhow, so you don't need to remove your substrate and rinse it.(many planted tank forums are referring soil to dirt, not sure if you are aware of that).
And like I said, you can remove the fish, they can remain in another container and remain heated. Once everything is settled down, the tank will be warm enough again and your fish can go back into the tank.


----------



## Tree

What kman said. XD got them from petsmart as well. =)


----------



## kman

FishyFishy89 said:


> The soil is supposed to be capped anyhow, so you don't need to remove your substrate and rinse it.(many planted tank forums are referring soil to dirt, not sure if you are aware of that).
> And like I said, you can remove the fish, they can remain in another container and remain heated. Once everything is settled down, the tank will be warm enough again and your fish can go back into the tank.


Yes, I know soil is dirt.

I'm referring to the substrate cap (the non-soil one that is theoretically in there now).

Unless we're crossing wires and I'm misunderstanding you, you're talking about a way to add dirt/soil to the bottom of an existing non-dirt/soil substrate (gravel, sand, etc), right?

Any substrate in an established tank is going to have all kinds of gunk trapped in it that you don't want to release without risk to the fish, even if you change the water, much will be newly-exposed and likely start producing ammonia and other junk in the water. So major disturbances to existing established substrate should be kept to a minimum. Even carefully "shimmying" in frozen blocks would be a pretty major distubance, if you're coating the whole tank bottom with them under the existing substrate (which would now be a cap for the dirt/soil).

Of course, if I'm misunderstanding what you're proposing, then perhaps this warning doesn't apply, and I'd love to hear more about this, because it does seem interesting.

(I mentioned the temperature issue because you said "Can also remove the fish if you want" but I don't see that as particularly optional for major work like this.)


----------



## FishyFishy89

Well, in my opinion, regardless of rinsing your substrate, you're probably going to have all kinds of gunk. That, and I also have a population of MTS in my sand, I'd rather not rinse the soil with them in it.


----------



## PuckFanLA

*How many plants?*

This thread has been super informative and I've got everything ready for my first NPT except plants and lights. Here's my question. 
How many plants are the correct amount to safely plant and stock with critters on the same day? I have an 11 gallon tank with organic miracle gro substrate and sand cap. I want to make sure the tank is safe for my critters and need some help with how much to plant for the size of my tank. Thank you.
Puck


----------



## kman

PuckFanLA said:


> This thread has been super informative and I've got everything ready for my first NPT except plants and lights. Here's my question.
> How many plants are the correct amount to safely plant and stock with critters on the same day? I have an 11 gallon tank with organic miracle gro substrate and sand cap. I want to make sure the tank is safe for my critters and need some help with how much to plant for the size of my tank. Thank you.
> Puck


I wouldn't plan on setting up a brand new tank with capped soil, and put fish and such in it the same day. Plants, yes, but otherwise the tank needs time to cycle.


----------



## PuckFanLA

kman said:


> I wouldn't plan on setting up a brand new tank with capped soil, and put fish and such in it the same day. Plants, yes, but otherwise the tank needs time to cycle.


THanks for the reply and please forgive my questions but the OP Old Fish Lady's first post clearly says that you can plant and stock the same day if done correctly with enough plants. Is this no longer accurate info? I'm happy to plant, cycle then stock but from the OP it didn't seem necessary. My betta is perfectly happy in his smaller tank and I don't want to risk his health stocking the new tank early so thank you for the help.
Puck


----------



## summersea

I just started my first NPT using miracle gro organic potting mix with a sand cap. I was also under the impression that I could stock immediately too. However, apparently if you use the organic miracle gro it has an ammonia spike for the first couple weeks so it needs to cycle. It has been two weeks since I set my up and it just now lowered to .25ppm from 2ppm. I would be sure to test your tank before stocking. Hope my little bit of experience helps!


----------



## PuckFanLA

summersea said:


> I just started my first NPT using miracle gro organic potting mix with a sand cap. I was also under the impression that I could stock immediately too. However, apparently if you use the organic miracle gro it has an ammonia spike for the first couple weeks so it needs to cycle. It has been two weeks since I set my up and it just now lowered to .25ppm from 2ppm. I would be sure to test your tank before stocking. Hope my little bit of experience helps!


Thanks for the reply Summersea, your tank was one of the ones that really jumped out at me when browsing through this thread and your advice is appreciated since you used the materials in your tank I'm using. I will plant and cycle the tank before I add my betta. I'm going to take advantage of the Petco fish/plant sale on the 22nd and 23rd of this month.
Puck


----------



## summersea

Aww I appreciate te complement since I have never done this before 

I definitely think you will love the results. I have been amazed by the growth in my tank! Make sure to get lots of stems! My wisteria absolutely loves this substrate and has grown amazingly fast! My hygrophila corymbosa and cryptocoryne wendtii have also done pretty well if you can find them at petco. I plan on taking advantage of that sale too - only I will be picking up a new betta for this tank! Good luck and be sure to post your results! I can't wait to see!


----------



## PuckFanLA

summersea said:


> Aww I appreciate te complement since I have never done this before
> 
> I definitely think you will love the results. I have been amazed by the growth in my tank! Make sure to get lots of stems! My wisteria absolutely loves this substrate and has grown amazingly fast! My hygrophila corymbosa and cryptocoryne wendtii have also done pretty well if you can find them at petco. I plan on taking advantage of that sale too - only I will be picking up a new betta for this tank! Good luck and be sure to post your results! I can't wait to see!


Thanks again for the tips, I'll be sure to post up some pictures of the tank when its put together. I collected a couple of nice rocks today to help add some interesting terrain for Eddie, my Betta. I am anxious to get started.
Puck


----------



## FishyFishy89

PuckFanLA said:


> THanks for the reply and please forgive my questions but the OP Old Fish Lady's first post clearly says that you can plant and stock the same day if done correctly with enough plants. Is this no longer accurate info? I'm happy to plant, cycle then stock but from the OP it didn't seem necessary. My betta is perfectly happy in his smaller tank and I don't want to risk his health stocking the new tank early so thank you for the help.
> Puck


I would say you CAN do this. But I would recommend daily testing and daily 50% water changes. Always dose with Prime to neutralize the ammonia.


----------



## PuckFanLA

summersea said:


> I just started my first NPT using miracle gro organic potting mix with a sand cap. I was also under the impression that I could stock immediately too. However, apparently if you use the organic miracle gro it has an ammonia spike for the first couple weeks so it needs to cycle. It has been two weeks since I set my up and it just now lowered to .25ppm from 2ppm. I would be sure to test your tank before stocking. Hope my little bit of experience helps!


Summersea, Were you running a filter on your tank during the cycling period or did you just let the plants do their thing on their own? I have a little Marina S10 that I thought I would run during the cycling phase and probably for the first couple of months with the idea of removing it all together once the tanks matures. Thanks for your advice.
Puck


----------



## summersea

Yup! I am running the Marina S10 filter in my NPT. I just used some Fluval sponge instead of a carbon based filter. I like the S10 because you can adjust the flow. I haven't decided if I am going to keep it running forever or not...will have to see how it goes!


----------



## kittenfish

PuckFanLA said:


> THanks for the reply and please forgive my questions but the OP Old Fish Lady's first post clearly says that you can plant and stock the same day if done correctly with enough plants. Is this no longer accurate info? I'm happy to plant, cycle then stock but from the OP it didn't seem necessary. My betta is perfectly happy in his smaller tank and I don't want to risk his health stocking the new tank early so thank you for the help.
> Puck


It also depends on the health of your plants. If you have healthy, actively growing plants, like from one of your own tanks, they will take up a lot more ammonia initially than the browning plants I usually see at Petco.


----------



## Tree

Would I be able to take out my sponge filters in my NPT after awhile? or should I just leave them in permanently?


----------



## kman

Tree said:


> Would I be able to take out my sponge filters in my NPT after awhile? or should I just leave them in permanently?


I'd leave them in. Filtration is good, even if the plants don't need it, your fish will appreciate it.


----------



## Tree

kman said:


> I'd leave them in. Filtration is good, even if the plants don't need it, your fish will appreciate it.



thanks =)


----------



## MattsBettas

Plants like the water movement too...


----------



## Tree

Oh never thought of the plants liking the flow, thanks. =)


----------



## Tree

question, how long after you set up your NPT can you put your livestock in. right away or should I wait for the bacteria to bloom?


----------



## FishyFishy89

Tree said:


> question, how long after you set up your NPT can you put your livestock in. right away or should I wait for the bacteria to bloom?


If you're up to doing constant testing and maybe daily 50%, you can probably do it right away.


----------



## Tree

FishyFishy89 said:


> If you're up to doing constant testing and maybe daily 50%, you can probably do it right away.



How often should I do the 50% in a 5 gallon? still every day? I used some of the filter bacteria in my other four tanks that are already cycled so it should get cycled in no time. =)


----------



## FishyFishy89

Tree said:


> How often should I do the 50% in a 5 gallon? still every day? I used some of the filter bacteria in my other four tanks that are already cycled so it should get cycled in no time. =)


It should, yes.
When I dirted my established 75 gallon, I saw no spiking. Then again, I did daily 50% for a few weeks.
I'd test the water everyday and do water changes when needed.


----------



## Tree

thanks! =D


----------



## Paul1307

*How to dirt a tank the wrong way...*

I decided I wanted to try dirt in the substrate - isn't that how it is in nature - but couldn't find an info until I found the D. Walstad, "Ecology of the planted aquarium:...", so, with limited knowledge I set out to find some soil. You've got to be careful about "organic" mixes, since their organic components often include manure, bat guano, ground fish meal, etc., all of which will make one fine-smelling stew when wetted.

Too late I found that I should have "demineralized it" which, from the sound of it means wetting it and letting it dry out for a few cycles. I just dumped a clump of it from the bag into my 29g high tank and wet it to about the level of the soil. Talk about smell! Not the best way to go about doing this.

The question of sand versus gravel is, I think, one of proportion. In a 2.5g tank, gravel just looks too big; in a 29, it's about right. It's a matter of aesthetics, and personal taste, I suspect. I chose Petco gravel because the color was right - natural - and because I thought it would cap the soil best. I'm not sorry about that decision.

The tank smelled for days, even with the filter running (Fluval 305), and, it wasn't getting dirty. I got tired of having my lumber in the bathtub soaking (and needed a shower), so in the tank it went. Lots of tannin left in there, you betcha! I researched and found that Purigen was at the top of the list for clearing it. It did, and overnight, and settled my questions about whether or not my filter was working; it was.

I did not change water at all for the first three weeks, waiting for everything "to balance out." Not a good idea. The water was so dark it was impossible to see the back of the tank, in fact, I couldn't even see the tree stumps I'd put in, and they were only inches from the front glass. Lesson learned: change water! And did I mention the ammonia? Almost off the scale. I guess the "Baby Tears" I added weren't doing their job. Time for a serious water change!

Water change helped a lot. Well, when you suck out 90% of the water and completely replace it, that's what you'd expect. Ammonia down to 2.2 or so, and very little tannin release. On the downside, nearly all plants had nearly disintegrated into gray mush floating around the tank. Filter mostly picking that gunk up, but not good.

Must be nice to have an extra tank around from which to snip cuttings to plant, otherwise you have to go to the local fish store, and buy them, not cheap, I might add. I do not have enough plants, but at least with clear water, they may survive, perhaps even flourish until at some point the tank reaches a point of stasis between the ammonia being produced in the anaerobic subsoil and the oxygen produced by the plant roots. I'll put in more plants, and do regular water changes until then.

On the subject of lights. I did a LOT of research on the subject because I like the idea of LEDs, their efficiency, and their relative lack of wasted heat. My tank is in my office in my home, and with a computer, two LCD monitors (don't let them tell you they don't produce heat), and an 85-pound golden doodle that likes it under my desk by my feet, heat is a factor. In fact, here in Phoenix, my office usually runs about 77 degrees during the day - not much need for a tank heater.

Here's the synthesis of my light research. 6400 K is best for plants, as has been said already in this nearly 50-page post on dirt tanks. LEDs are a special bunch. You MUST know the wattage of the individual LEDs - the white ones, which are the 6400 K LEDs - and from there you can figure the total wattage. "Blue" lights (for night-time) don't count in the total wattage. 12 watts of LED surpasses 175 watts of Metal Halide light! The old "how many watts per gallon" is out the window for LEDs. BTW, algae likes blue light in the 10,000-20,000 K range, so reign in that urge to use blue.

There are now screw-in SHO power compact lights (CFL - compact fluorescent lights); a 105 watt bulb is equivalent to a 525 watt standard bulb. A Hydrofarm - UPC 638104565042 FLC125D SHO CFL produces 7000 lumens at 6400 K. This bulb is huge, and best used with a reflector. But talk about light?! In spades, 56 lumens per watt! Around $30 per bulb. You'll need a reflector. Did I mention this bulb is big? It's about 11" long, and no, it won't fit your standard hood, and would generate too much heat.

Speaking of standard hoods and LEDs, most of the ones for tanks use .2 watt LEDs, so, not much light there, and read the fine print. It's why those who prefer LEDs are using after-market. An "LED" is not necessarily an "LED." Comparing them can be like comparing apples to oranges. You want to know how many watts of white 6400 K light are you getting, preferably in lumens, if you can get it. LEDs are very efficient, probably in the range of 80-90%, most use Cree LEDs (the best). 

If you're using T5 tubes you aren't going to get nearly so much light, and you'll need to replace bulbs. I choose a 30" Evo fixture at 6400 K and 20 x 3 watt LEDS. That give me (doing some quick math of 12 watts = 175 watt MH), roughly 500 watts of light for (the cost of) 60~ watts of power. ~$90 online. A 30" fixture is not easy to find; other sizes are cheaper and more available, come with "night lights" that run on a separate power source (one time runs both 6400 K and night lights). LEDs use about 15v DC, some higher, so safe if dropped in tank (but not cheap to replace).

An incandescent bulb can produce about 15 lumens per watt of power; the rest is heat. A fluorescent tube is four- to six- times as efficient at between 50 and 100 lumens per watt. LEDs produce 266 lumens per watt. Not to ignore the cost of operation - not trivial - an LED has a lifetime expectancy of about 50,000 hours, and incandescent light, about 1,200 hours, and a CFL of about 8,000 hours. If I do the math (LEDs, 6-8 watts, 329 KWh/yr., $32.85/yr; incandescent, 60 watts, 3285 KWh/yr, $328.59/yr; CFL, 13-15 watts, 767 KWh/yr, $76.65/yr) I can guess that my LEDs cost about $330/yr, the equivalent incandescent (12 watts LED = 175 watts MH, so 5 x 175 = 875 watts at $4791/yr; CFL of 105 watts, 7 times a 15 watt CFL, $536.55). Fluorescent costs are based on "15 watt fluorescent produces the same light as a 60 watt incandescent." A 40 watt fluorescent is therefore equivalent to a 240 watt incandescent, and would cost about 4 x 60 watts @ $328.59 = $1314.36.

To recap, one 40 watt fluorescent costs $1314/yr to operate, a SHO CFL, $536/yr, and an LED of 60 watts, $330/yr. If you have two 40 watt fluorescents in a fixture, $2628/yr, and you're getting no where near the lumens the LED puts out. So, are those LEDs really "that much more expensive?"

I can still smell my tank wafting across my office, though the smell is more "organic" now than "rotten eggs," LOL, so, perhaps I should have washed my "dirt" before I put it in the tank. BTW, I added eight neon tetras (two at first) to see if the tank would support aerobic life-forms, and three loaches to stir up the soil. I'll be hunting the elusive Madagascar Trumpet Snail, and some shrimp, plus a lot more plant cuttings (which, by the number per tube are actually competitively-priced at the LFS), usually less than $1/cutting.

How not to do a dirt tank, and with perseverance, I WILL make this sucker work, LOL !!!


----------



## FishyFishy89

You don't need to do all that work. And many users, including myself, are using organic soils with absolutely no issues. No smells. No demineralizing crap. Put in soil. Add your cap and fill it with water, plants, hardscape and fishys.

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----------



## Paul1307

*Organics*

I think it was those "organic compounds" that did it, the cow manure and bat guano. I opted to not use anything with artificial additives like fertilizers, so that was the principal problem. It wasn't until later that I remembered an article I had read years ago about soaking manure in water to make a fertilizer for plants that wouldn't burn them. Part of my "water change" involved using some of the water I took out of the tank to water our plants in planters. And, as I said, I didn't know this site had such an extensive set of instructions until after I had made my mistakes.


----------



## FishyFishy89

What organic soil did you use?
Every NPT expert I know uses Miracle Gro organic potting mix. And they have had absolutely no issues.

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----------



## Paul1307

It was called Kellogg or Kelloggs. But I did this before finding this group. The water is pretty clear now. It was just at the start when it smelled. Who knows? Maybe in the long run that organic fertilizer will prove useful (especially since my office stopped smelling like a barn). 

Did the Miracle Gro potting mix contain any added fertilizer, and how large are bags of it? I only looked at 30-40 pound bags, as my wife also wanted some potting soil.


----------



## FishyFishy89

I've never heard of a cereal company making gardening stuff. Lol
The miracle gro organic potting mix contains NO fertilizers or chemicals. I think the two bags I got were 30lbs.

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----------



## jrury

Just started a planted "tank" experiment to see if I want to dirt my tanks. It is actually a cookie jar thats about 2.5 liters 
used miracle grow organic choice capped with pool filter sand 

lighting right now is from a east window and room lights/other tank lights. 

planted with a few crypts that were about to disappear in my tank (shrinking?) and a plant that petsmart had 50% off and had some brown leaves with some riccia and duckweed that hitchhiked in along with 2 snails a nerite and one that was on a plant

took about 10 90% water changes to get clear water... forgot to cap before I flooded  now just a little bit of stuff floating around now.


----------



## TheNoona

Am I doing it right?  There's four Tetras in there atm. . . some where lol

Edit: No, no i'm not. totally wrong section and I can't figure out how to delete or move it


----------



## FishyFishy89

4 tetras maybe too much for 1 little bowl. And they're schooling fish, they need to be in groups of 6 or more.


----------



## TheNoona

It's 4.5 litres, the guy at the store said 4 or 5 should be ok in there. Maybe get another?


----------



## FishyFishy89

I think a larger tank is in order. A proper school isn't going to fit in that bowl very well.


----------



## Paul1307

*Kelloggs!*

Surprisingly, Kelloggs got into cereal as a part of a move towards "organic naturalism" in the early days, and so became enmeshed in the cereal business as a "natural" diet. I was a bit surprised, at first, then I could see the tie-in to organic soil.
My tank is doing much better, though I'm still losing a neon tetra far too often. I put an older Aqua 8 watt UV sterilizer with an old bulb on the tank, and slowly, the cloudiness (caused by bacteria would be my best guess) is going away. Seeing the results, I bought a new Jebao 36 Watt (! Yikes, I know) UV which I plan on installing into the return from my Fluval 305. Once I bit the bullet on an inline sterilizer, the decision only got more complicated. Here's the rationale: the filter is capable of flowing 305 gph; most smaller UV (8, 11, 15 W) units, to sterilize pathogens, require flow rates of ~200 gph or so, and name brands ~$60 or so. "Killing" algae is one thing, getting rid of single-cell animals, another altogether more demanding prospect. A new bulb for the Aqua: $50 (ouch), and it requires an ugly internal pump, no-name 36W UV, about $65, but who knows what you're getting (and no reviews). Overkill? Probably, but my next tank will be bigger, so no money wasted, and massive (argh, argh, argh) sterilizing power. A little plumbing, and all will be well.
Plants are doing marvelous; added about 30 day before yesterday, and growing like weeds, so, success, but still with fingers crossed. UV I don't see as an option at this time, but a necessity after numerous water changes failed to significantly lift the cloudiness. Perhaps later, when everything is balanced, it won't be necessary, or a smaller unit may suffice once everything is stable in a few months. Wonderfully daffy experience so far: how to do it all the wrong way, lol. But it's been enormous fun! Many on-line reports on UV note that they were installed to clear up an ongoing problem, and were the only solution that worked, but thereafter, they only run them occasionally. We'll see.


----------



## Hydrofloria

here's ,my current planted betta tank


----------



## Paul1307

Thanks for the reply on the MiracleGro. I'm actually a bit surprised it doesn't contain any fertilizer since that's what they're famous for.

All that manure in my soil can't be a bad thing, especially now that the smell is gone. Be interested in hearing if anyone else has an opinion, or has tried it out.

The tank is now crystal clear, no nitrites, no nitrates, and only about 1ppp ammonia. I've added snails, Amano Shrimp, and have some trumpet snails coming in tomorrow (I hope). The 36-watt UV has arrived and I can't wait to get it set up, but need some adapters first, and will try and make it "plug-and-play" so that if I don't want it in the loop I can just disconnect some connectors, and connect the filter outflow directly into the tank. Stem plants growing about 1/2" per day! Simply amazing!


----------



## taquitos

Wrong thread, sorry!


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*question about setup*

@Oldfish;ady

I would like to do this for my communal tank with platies, but in my 10gal tank I understand up put 1.5 inch of soil and then cap and then hardscape, but how does the poo and other byproduct get to the plants root if the earth is covered by cap and hard scape.

My platies are pooing machines and I woul have thought that it would be better just to have earth and nothing else then the poo can fert. the earth and plants???


----------



## FishyFishy89

AlgarveblueVT said:


> @Oldfish;ady
> 
> I would like to do this for my communal tank with platies, but in my 10gal tank I understand up put 1.5 inch of soil and then cap and then hardscape, but how does the poo and other byproduct get to the plants root if the earth is covered by cap and hard scape.
> 
> My platies are pooing machines and I woul have thought that it would be better just to have earth and nothing else then the poo can fert. the earth and plants???


snails and shrimps. They are a vital part of your planted tank. Malaysian Trumpet Snails are a favorite among the planted community. It is a self-control population and will not over populate unless you are over feeding.
Just about any shrimp will do for your tank.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*planted tank*



FishyFishy89 said:


> snails and shrimps. They are a vital part of your planted tank. Malaysian Trumpet Snails are a favorite among the planted community. It is a self-control population and will not over populate unless you are over feeding.
> Just about any shrimp will do for your tank.


I see now , but i was worried that the snail would eat all my plants?


----------



## Piyoteru

The Trumpet Snail won't eat your plants, they'll go through whatever collects on the substrate and will burrow through it. I really want some myself, but it's hard to get where I am- so I have to go with similar native species.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*planted tank*



Piyoteru said:


> The Trumpet Snail won't eat your plants, they'll go through whatever collects on the substrate and will burrow through it. I really want some myself, but it's hard to get where I am- so I have to go with similar native species.


I am only able to get normal aquatic snails, here in Portugal they dont have the stock like in the US or other countries.


----------



## FishyFishy89

AlgarveblueVT said:


> I see now , but i was worried that the snail would eat all my plants?


They won't eat your plants. They'll only eat whatever is dying, dead or decaying. They also help keep my plants clean whenever the fish do not.


----------



## TheAnimaLover

This is very helpful for me


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*planted setup*



FishyFishy89 said:


> They won't eat your plants. They'll only eat whatever is dying, dead or decaying. They also help keep my plants clean whenever the fish do not.


Just got my snails which are not very active at the mo-
but just looked them up and they are 'Ruby Nerite snails' 

as I say they are not very active( I have bought 2)
maybe i should get some more.


----------



## myprince

*How?*



Hydrofloria said:


> here's ,my current planted betta tank


How are you currently getting your plants that healthy? I am having such a hard time with mine. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong?


----------



## kman

AlgarveblueVT said:


> Just got my snails which are not very active at the mo-
> but just looked them up and they are 'Ruby Nerite snails'
> 
> as I say they are not very active( I have bought 2)
> maybe i should get some more.


Nerite snails are not very active; that's normal for them. They cruise around slowly (once they feel comfortable in a new tank), eating algae. I love them and have them in all my tanks.

But they're also not burrowing snails. You want the MTS snails referenced above, as they're the ones that dig down into the substrate to aerate the soil and mix things down past the cap. Nothing wrong with Nerites, they're great and the zebra nerites are very pretty, but they won't mix up your soil like the MTS will.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*planted tank*



kman said:


> Nerite snails are not very active; that's normal for them. They cruise around slowly (once they feel comfortable in a new tank), eating algae. I love them and have them in all my tanks.
> 
> But they're also not burrowing snails. You want the MTS snails referenced above, as they're the ones that dig down into the substrate to aerate the soil and mix things down past the cap. Nothing wrong with Nerites, they're great and the zebra nerites are very pretty, but they won't mix up your soil like the MTS will.



the shop has got in some small Mexican shrimp.


----------



## FishyFishy89

what do they look like?`


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*my fresh water shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> what do they look like?`


I have found out that I think them are anamo shrimp- the label on the shop was wrong.

they are almost transparent with some markings on their body.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Amano shrimp are great. I have 2 and been considering getting more. They ate all my hair algae when I had a bloom.
Check for the orangeish brownish stripe on their back. If they don't have one they're something else you don't want. IDK what exactly it was but I think it ate plants?

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> Amano shrimp are great. I have 2 and been considering getting more. They ate all my hair algae when I had a bloom.
> Check for the orangeish brownish stripe on their back. If they don't have one they're something else you don't want. IDK what exactly it was but I think it ate plants?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think they are definitely anamo shrimp- thats all they have , I got 4 shrimp and now 4 nerites


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

Well I dont know whats happened to my 4 Anamo shrimp, suddenly I only saw 2 and now I cant see any.
also I had 4 nerites and now I only see 2???
do the snail bury themselves, and do the shrimp-
I hope my platies havent eaten them.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

worried about Anamo shrimp-
tested tank and:
Nitrate:20ppm
Ammonia:0.25ppm


----------



## FishyFishy89

I wouldn't worry too much about them. I know my amanos will randomly disappear and reappear. They mostly like disappearing when they shed their exoskeleton. That way they give me a nice little heart attack. But once you find their favorite hiding spot, it'll be easier to find them. I have all hidy spots pointed in different directions but where I can still peer inside and look for someone hiding in there.

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about them. I know my amanos will randomly disappear and reappear. They mostly like disappearing when they shed their exoskeleton. That way they give me a nice little heart attack. But once you find their favorite hiding spot, it'll be easier to find them. I have all hidy spots pointed in different directions but where I can still peer inside and look for someone hiding in there.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have plants and small bogwood, but I looked under there and couldnt see the 4,
I guess I have lost them some how... will have to get some more.


----------



## FishyFishy89

I say unless you've physically moved stuff around, I'd wait for a few days and see if you find them. You haven't found any signs of them being eaten.

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> I say unless you've physically moved stuff around, I'd wait for a few days and see if you find them. You haven't found any signs of them being eaten.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I havent looked that carefully, but I feel that they are not there.
lets hope that they emerge from somewhere.


----------



## kittenfish

I don't think your fish would have eaten the amanos unless they were already dead. Since they were new, I'm wondering if you acclimated slowly using a method like this one: http://www.planetinverts.com/Acclimating New Shrimp.html

Shrimp can be very sensitive to changes in water chemistry and if you don't take time to acclimate them the change can kill them. They are very hiders though! They may just show up at feeding time.

Have you found the nerites? If you don't see empty shells lying around they are probably in there somewhere.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

Good news I have spotted 3- this morning.
It appears they were hidden in my aquarium grass which has lots of algae. 

Also 2 of these shrimps are kind of black with a grey strip on their back.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimps*



kittenfish said:


> I don't think your fish would have eaten the amanos unless they were already dead. Since they were new, I'm wondering if you acclimated slowly using a method like this one: http://www.planetinverts.com/Acclimating New Shrimp.html
> 
> Shrimp can be very sensitive to changes in water chemistry and if you don't take time to acclimate them the change can kill them. They are very hiders though! They may just show up at feeding time.
> 
> Have you found the nerites? If you don't see empty shells lying around they are probably in there somewhere.



Sorry didnt see what you wrote about nerites, and yes I found them too


----------



## FishyFishy89

Look up black king Kong shrimp
Do they look like that?

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> Look up black king Kong shrimp
> Do they look like that?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No- its not like that..
Its not as black, but has a single white/ grey strip down its back


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

I will be getting some more shrimps, as my tank gets a lot of algae.


----------



## FishyFishy89

add either more plants or reduce your lighting period


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> add either more plants or reduce your lighting period


I have no lighting, its in my conservatory where it just gets natural daylight, but it gets light from all angles.


----------



## FishyFishy89

Then I'd add more plants. There's access nutrients and the algae is feeding off of it.

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> Then I'd add more plants. There's access nutrients and the algae is feeding off of it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I cant put any more plants in tank or I wont see fish...
Its only 40L(2.5gal)
but I have just bought 2 more shrimp


----------



## kittenfish

That's odd, even one nerite should be able to rid a 2.5 gallon of algae pretty quickly.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

I have 4, but some like to hide themselves in the gravel.
my tank has quite a lot of algae...


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about them. I know my amanos will randomly disappear and reappear. They mostly like disappearing when they shed their exoskeleton. That way they give me a nice little heart attack. But once you find their favorite hiding spot, it'll be easier to find them. I have all hidy spots pointed in different directions but where I can still peer inside and look for someone hiding in there.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sadly I did find that only after a short while these shrimp did die, after I did a water change I came across the bodies, I am not sure if the water is to hot for them, or the water conditions arent right....?
will try to get some more today , if the store has them in.
my nerites are doing ok, but the shrimp... dont know.


----------



## FishyFishy89

AlgarveblueVT said:


> Sadly I did find that only after a short while these shrimp did die, after I did a water change I came across the bodies, I am not sure if the water is to hot for them, or the water conditions arent right....?
> will try to get some more today , if the store has them in.
> my nerites are doing ok, but the shrimp... dont know.


Are you sure it is a body and not just a shed?
Have you been testing your water params?

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> Are you sure it is a body and not just a shed?
> Have you been testing your water params?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



well I can only see one active shrimp.... I am quite sure that they were dead..

last time i tested the water it was:
Ammonia:0.25ppm
nitrate: 20ppm

my ammonia always reads 0.25ppm from source and I have now added some ammo lock and water cond. too


----------



## kittenfish

How large of a water change? I'm not sure about amanos but in general shrimp prefer smaller water changes. I only do about 10% at a time in my rili shrimp tank.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

I do a 40-50% water change.


----------



## FishyFishy89

kittenfish said:


> How large of a water change? I'm not sure about amanos but in general shrimp prefer smaller water changes. I only do about 10% at a time in my rili shrimp tank.


My amanos get 50% in my community tank and they haven't had any issues

I'd say the nitrates and ammonia are the problem.
Are you using Seachem Prime? I would maintain nitrates level of 5-10ppm

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

FishyFishy89 said:


> My amanos get 50% in my community tank and they haven't had any issues
> 
> I'd say the nitrates and ammonia are the problem.
> Are you using Seachem Prime? I would maintain nitrates level of 5-10ppm
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I cant get seachem here.
I use Api Aquapur and Api Ammo lock


----------



## FishyFishy89

AlgarveblueVT said:


> I cant get seachem here.
> I use Api Aquapur and Api Ammo lock


Seachem lists all their dealers here. I did a search for Portugal.
http://sdlocator.seachem.com/SDLocator/process_dealer_search.php

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----------



## AlgarveblueVT

FishyFishy89 said:


> Seachem lists all their dealers here. I did a search for Portugal.
> Seachem Dealer Locator
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Probably they are in Lisbon- the capital.
I live in the Algarve south of the country- my nearest store only supplies either Sera or API.


----------



## AlgarveblueVT

*anamo shrimp*



FishyFishy89 said:


> Are you sure it is a body and not just a shed?
> Have you been testing your water params?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



good news 
did a big water change today and cut some aquatic grass and plants back, and suddenly found 2 more shrimp :thumbsup:

so I have 3 active shrimp.


----------



## kittenfish

That's great! They are really good at disappearing.


----------



## rhapsodyqueen

I recently started my first npt and everything seems to be going great but I would like some advice if I have enough of a variety of plants. I have one Anubias attached to driftwood, 3 or 4 java fern stems, floating wisteria, banana plant, a moss ball and my most recently acquired plant crypt wendtii (brown variety I believe). The banana plant already has a new leaf and wisteria is growing like crazy. It had no roots when I bought it and it now has a few roots growing out the ends. 
I haven't had any ammonia problems. Tank is 5 gallons and for light I'm using the stock LED lamp that came with the tank (tetra crescent) I'm thinking about upgrading the lighting soon but the plants seem to be doing well with the low light.
Should I add any more plants? I was thinking java moss or dwarf sag?
Also, I had curly willow in the tank but I took it out today because one of the branches had a fluffy clearish/white fungus/algae growing on it. I only had it in there for two days and I cleaned it pretty good before putting it in.


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## sponge1234

rhapsodyqueen said:


> I recently started my first npt and everything seems to be going great but I would like some advice if I have enough of a variety of plants. I have one Anubias attached to driftwood, 3 or 4 java fern stems, floating wisteria, banana plant, a moss ball and my most recently acquired plant crypt wendtii (brown variety I believe). The banana plant already has a new leaf and wisteria is growing like crazy. It had no roots when I bought it and it now has a few roots growing out the ends.
> I haven't had any ammonia problems. Tank is 5 gallons and for light I'm using the stock LED lamp that came with the tank (tetra crescent) I'm thinking about upgrading the lighting soon but the plants seem to be doing well with the low light.
> Should I add any more plants? I was thinking java moss or dwarf sag?
> Also, I had curly willow in the tank but I took it out today because one of the branches had a fluffy clearish/white fungus/algae growing on it. I only had it in there for two days and I cleaned it pretty good before putting it in.


You need a few more stems and more rooted plants.


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## AlgarveblueVT

*algae*



kittenfish said:


> That's odd, even one nerite should be able to rid a 2.5 gallon of algae pretty quickly.


ly surprise no more algae, I am really happy seems that the nerites and fish with the light being blocked has removed the algae from the tank.

so on with water change tomorrow.:-D


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## merrycat

I wanted to clarify - does this mean that, once you have enough plants, you can do away with a filter altogether? Does the size of the tank matter? This would be for something between 5-10 gallons.

Also, if you used sand with root tabs rather than actual soil, would it still work as well?


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## FishyFishy89

The whole point of NPT is to not use artificial fertilizers. Also, I personally wouldn't go without filters in tanks smaller than 5 gallons. That's just my personal opinion.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Aquatic life

U have a beautiful tank. I want one like that. Lol :-D


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## AlgarveblueVT

finally found where i can buy and have purchased 10 MTS


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## Tree

will it hurt my plants having the light on for only 8 hours instead of 10 to 12 hours? I get a lot of algae in my tanks and my snails and shrimp cannot keep up with. or should I add more snails and shrimp? I have 1 nerite snail and three two ghost shrimp in my 5.5 gallon. 

two of my tanks are thriving but the other one is slower growing. they have the same lighting daylight 15 watt lighting.


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## MattsBettas

Try manual removal if you can, but as long as your plants aren't really demanding or med-high to high light, it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Tree

ok thanks. =) I am really having more trouble with Blue green algae as well that they don't eat. I have tried hydrogen peroxide but it seems to not take care of all of it so I have been removing all of that each day. x_x


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## MattsBettas

Ugh BGA is the worst, I've had struggles with that too recently. With the H2O2 you have to use an eye dropper to squirt it strait on, it should bubble up and die shortly after. 8ml/10g is a safe dose with fish in the tank.


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## tankman12

The only thing that kills blue green algae is api erythromycin. It destroyed all of it in my shellies tank. It will kill it in literally a couple of days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tree

MattsBettas said:


> Ugh BGA is the worst, I've had struggles with that too recently. With the H2O2 you have to use an eye dropper to squirt it strait on, it should bubble up and die shortly after. 8ml/10g is a safe dose with fish in the tank.


IKR?! gah so frustrating. XD I cleared one of my tanks with it but now my spec is getting the BGA. 



tankman12 said:


> The only thing that kills blue green algae is api erythromycin. It destroyed all of it in my shellies tank. It will kill it in literally a couple of days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If nothing else works I might have to try that out. Thanks =)


----------



## MattsBettas

tankman12 said:


> The only thing that kills blue green algae is api erythromycin. It destroyed all of it in my shellies tank. It will kill it in literally a couple of days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, that's not the only thing that will kill it. Manual removal, blackouts, H2O2, extra oxygenation, and proper parameters go a long way and can eradicate it or get it to the point of being unnoticeable. 

Erythromycin will take care of it, but quite honestly it should be kept as a last resort. Using antibiotics like that does no one a favor in the hobby... The more we unnecessarily or improperly use antibiotics, the more risk there is of antibiotic resistant pathogens killing fish while the only thing we can do is watch. My opinion, and the growing one, is that if something can be taken care of without antibiotics it should be.


----------



## Tree

MattsBettas said:


> No, that's not the only thing that will kill it. Manual removal, blackouts, H2O2, extra oxygenation, and proper parameters go a long way and can eradicate it or get it to the point of being unnoticeable.
> 
> Erythromycin will take care of it, but quite honestly it should be kept as a last resort. Using antibiotics like that does no one a favor in the hobby... The more we unnecessarily or improperly use antibiotics, the more risk there is of antibiotic resistant pathogens killing fish while the only thing we can do is watch. My opinion, and the growing one, is that if something can be taken care of without antibiotics it should be.


I'm sure it will not come down to using that, H202 will work. it worked last time in my other tank so I am not all that worried, it just sucks having to do it. XD and I don't want to do black outs with a fully planted tank.


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## MattsBettas

Most plants can handle a three day blackout, better than BGA at least... Or you can remove them, rinse off any BGA, and put them in another tank for the blackout. 

Blackouts that long aren't too great though, for the plants, tank, and fish... That's also kinda a last resort thing, but not as much as antibiotics.


----------



## Tree

MattsBettas said:


> Most plants can handle a three day blackout, better than BGA at least... Or you can remove them, rinse off any BGA, and put them in another tank for the blackout.
> 
> Blackouts that long aren't too great though, for the plants, tank, and fish... That's also kinda a last resort thing, but not as much as antibiotics.


note taken. =)


----------



## tankman12

MattsBettas said:


> No, that's not the only thing that will kill it. Manual removal, blackouts, H2O2, extra oxygenation, and proper parameters go a long way and can eradicate it or get it to the point of being unnoticeable.
> 
> Erythromycin will take care of it, but quite honestly it should be kept as a last resort. Using antibiotics like that does no one a favor in the hobby... The more we unnecessarily or improperly use antibiotics, the more risk there is of antibiotic resistant pathogens killing fish while the only thing we can do is watch. My opinion, and the growing one, is that if something can be taken care of without antibiotics it should be.


Only thing that has worked for me*** i tried the oxygen thing and my chemistry is all good. I did it once killed it, than did 2/3 ro water and 1/3 tap. It is keeping it away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tony2632

I used mardel maracyn two on BGA. It killed it in 2 days and I never got it again. That was such a long time ago.


----------



## SunnyCydUp

After having read the instructions/guide and comments from this forum, I'm very excited at the prospect of creating NPTs for my two tank setups. Will do the smaller one first as a test, then the larger 20-g. 

Now to go gather all the needed supplies.


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## anitsirk92

Is there a type of small gravel (preferably inexpensive) that is good to use in planted tanks? I'm looking for something that's going to be easy to clean and won't get sucked up in a siphon.


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## FishyFishy89

anitsirk92 said:


> Is there a type of small gravel (preferably inexpensive) that is good to use in planted tanks? I'm looking for something that's going to be easy to clean and won't get sucked up in a siphon.


You don't siphon planted tanks. It was stated in the very 1st post.


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## Deadflwr

I just did my very first NPT! So excited. Will post picture once everything settles.


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## SunnyCydUp

In the past few days, have managed to gather the live plants - cabomba, anacharis, and java fern, plus a couple of bacopa and wisteria cuttings (from the mother plant in the big tank), but haven't found any MTS. Big-box pet stores here don't carry them; will check out the LFS. Hoping to get the 3gal set up tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the live plants are happy and thriving in Chief's 3gal tank. Was amazed to literally see roots form so quickly on the cabomba and bacopa (it's only been a couple of days), and the wisteria too. I suppose they like their new home. Almost inclined to leave the tank as is. Almost.









(Chief, the photobomber, loves all the hiding places he has now.)


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## FishyFishy89

You should be able to find MTS from other fish keepers. Aquabid may also have some.


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## SunnyCydUp

Thanks FishyFishy.  Picked up a couple of assassin snails today. If that doesn't work, will do the poking short-term until plant roots are established. 

Got Chief's tank all set up. Will be posting pics in the show and tell thread shortly.


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## anitsirk92

SunnyCydUp said:


> Thanks FishyFishy.  Picked up a couple of assassin snails today. If that doesn't work, will do the poking short-term until plant roots are established.
> 
> Got Chief's tank all set up. Will be posting pics in the show and tell thread shortly.


I was just about to ask if assassin snails will do the same job as trumpet snails. Let me know please!


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## SunnyCydUp

anitsirk92 said:


> I was just about to ask if assassin snails will do the same job as trumpet snails. Let me know please!


So far, the only thing I've seen them do is attack the tiny stowaway. One's stuck himself to the side of the tank; the other is awol - probably in the cave. 

In lieu of their laziness, I'm using a bamboo skewer to (carefully) aerate the soil until the plants take root. So far, the only plant that's not doing well is the baby's tears, which is slowly morphing to something like java moss.


----------



## SunnyCydUp

^apparently I can't edit my posts (still a newb, I suppose). 

Anyhoo, a follow-up - indeed the 2nd assassin was in the cave, finishing his dinner--that being the tiny stowaway. :shock:


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## anitsirk92

In the first post it says that you can add your betta the same day that you set up the planted tank but I have little bits of soil floating around the top of my tank that snuck through the gravel. Is it still okay to add my betta? Or will he try to eat the dirt bits?


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## SunnyCydUp

^I added Chief the same day I set up the NPT. Prior to adding him tho, I did skim the top for the small amount of dirt around the edges. Did a partial water change two nights ago; water tests today were spot on. The earlier pic posted shows some of the plants before it went to full NPT. Here it is now.










Chief's sleeping spot is right over the cave, nestled in the anacharis.


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## anitsirk92

Just out of curiosity, if you don't add fish for about 3 months and the plants are all thriving and everything, do you need a filter at all?


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## FishyFishy89

anitsirk92 said:


> Just out of curiosity, if you don't add fish for about 3 months and the plants are all thriving and everything, do you need a filter at all?


Smaller tanks can do without a filter. Larger tanks need filters for water movement and a cycle.


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## Tony2632

I like using canister filters in smaller tanks for decent flow. I also like using power heads in larger setups. Mainly use flow for CO2 tanks to circulate gasses in every single area of the tank. So yeah I love filters in planted tanks.


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## donovan

*how much potting soil do I need?*

I was looking at using Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Soil, but how much do I need for a 20 gallon long tank? Depth would be 1 1/2 to 2 inches.


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## shooter

Oldfishlady said:


> Once my unfiltered- 1gal-3gal-heavy planted soil based are mature(about 3 months)-I make 4-5 more or less partial water changes a year-provided that the plants are thriving and doing their job.
> On first setup-I make 2-3 partials for the first week or so then back down to 1-2 weekly-then monthly.
> This is stocked with a single adult Betta and shrimp-usually half dozen or so and lots of common snails-maybe 20 or so that are thinned out on a regular basis. Water prams are all 0ppm(zero) across the board-the plants take care of the water and DOC's.
> 
> .


Two questions. First, I just want to make SURE because wow does that sound like a lot of critters in my fluval spec 2.8 gallon tank. I am thrilled if that is the case though. So a betta, a half dozen shrimp, and 20 snails is the right number for a 2.8 gallon tank?

Second question: I apparently need an upgrade from the stock light that comes with the tank. I called the biggest and best fish store in the city and they don't have any of the fluval 13w PC lamps. They do however have this: http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=746#prettyPhoto
Would that work well in my tank for sustaining plants?
They recommend it and say it would work well and it's what they use in their high end tanks. Anyone here use this? Thoughts?


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## FishyFishy89

shooter said:


> Two questions. First, I just want to make SURE because wow does that sound like a lot of critters in my fluval spec 2.8 gallon tank. I am thrilled if that is the case though. So a betta, a half dozen shrimp, and 20 snails is the right number for a 2.8 gallon tank?
> 
> Second question: I apparently need an upgrade from the stock light that comes with the tank. I called the biggest and best fish store in the city and they don't have any of the fluval 13w PC lamps. They do however have this: http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=746#prettyPhoto
> Would that work well in my tank for sustaining plants?
> They recommend it and say it would work well and it's what they use in their high end tanks. Anyone here use this? Thoughts?


I would never recommend severely overstocking a tank like that. So please don't do what that poster did. They may have good readings now but their system is going to horribly crash.

As far was which light to get. Anything that is rated 6,500k and above will work excellently for a planted tank.


----------



## Oldfishlady

Provided that you have enough of the right species of plants that are actively growing-little if any care is needed on a soil based system-even when stocked heavy, however, with your first NPT-I recommend that you take it slow at first until you get the hang of them-they are not without problems-that said, I have found that I have very few issues with any of my soil based heavy planted tanks-with or without filters-lightly or heavy stocked-To date I have several that haven't seen a water change in over 5 years-only top-offs-never any fish/livestock issues or water quality issues.

I have always added livestock the same day I set a soil based tank up-If you properly set a soil based tank up-it shouldn't be cloudy and it should be ready for stock the same day. Due to the soil and plants the nitrogen cycle is pretty much established already-even without a filter since the plants will provide oxygen for the bacteria.


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## FishyFishy89

OFL, I think my 75 gal is getting to the point of no water changes with my current stocking. I haven't seen any fluctuations in almost a year and plantd are flourishing. Though, I think I'll continue to weekly or every other week water changes. It encourages me to trim and maintain my plants. And to grab the forks at the bottom from veggie feedings. Haha. What I'd give to have carinvores in my tank XD


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## Kaxen

Tried my first NPT, but my gravel cap wasn't thick enough/poured water too fast and now I have a horrendously hazy tank.


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## kman

FishyFishy89 said:


> OFL, I think my 75 gal is getting to the point of no water changes with my current stocking. I haven't seen any fluctuations in almost a year and plantd are flourishing. Though, I think I'll continue to weekly or every other week water changes. It encourages me to trim and maintain my plants. And to grab the forks at the bottom from veggie feedings. Haha. What I'd give to have carinvores in my tank XD


Keep up with the water changes. There's all sorts of stuff in the water that standard test kits don't test for, so just because your base parameters are ok doesn't mean that you're not building up dangerous levels of other stuff.

A simple water change works wonders as a reset for anything nasty that could be building up. Doesn't have to be on a rigorous set schedule (as you've discovered), but I wouldn't give them up entirely, or let them go ridiculous amounts of time between changes...


----------



## Oldfishlady

When dealing with a properly setup soil based tank with active growing plants-the tank can take care of itself once mature IME.

When you have active growing live plants that take care of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate-the decomp of the organics also help in keeping the DOC under control-its as near to a complete ecosystem that you can create in a closed system.

A lot of really neat things happen in these type of systems that can't happen in a standard system even tanks that are planted-The soil is what makes the difference-That said, even with soil based systems things can go wrong but nothing like regular systems-you have a lot more wiggle room so-to-speak-of course provided that the NPT is in active growth and setup properly.

*Fishy*-sounds like your system is working out for you nicely-I usually do my trims and re-plants when I need to top off so I don't off set water and make a mess...lol...then I top off-I have several tanks that haven't seen a water change in well over 5 years or more and one of my 5gal NPT without a filter stocked with lots of snails, RCS and a Betta pair-keeps giving me more fry non-stop-My 55gal has about 50 or so mixed sex/varied age Betta from just that tank alone-sure be glad when its warm enough to get them outside....lol...


----------



## JDAquatics

Love this thread. Lots of helpful information. OFL, you mentioned that just about any container that holds water has been turned into NPT. Just curious, what other containers beside typical aquarium have you used?


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## Oldfishlady

JDAquatics said:


> Love this thread. Lots of helpful information. OFL, you mentioned that just about any container that holds water has been turned into NPT. Just curious, what other containers beside typical aquarium have you used?


I use a lot of the 1gal pickle jars, interesting looking container that are at least half to 1gal or more for NPT's-no filters or heaters, however, I do monitor temps to maintain at least 70F for the Bettas I keep in them. Many feel that 70F is too low, however, my Bettas tolerate, thrive and spawn in temps as low as 66F...so mine must be tougher than most. Lower than 66F stress the Betta too much to be safe IME, that said, I have never had a Betta die in water temps unless it drops down to 40'sF and risky in the 50's long term IME

I use all kinds of things outside in the warmer months, however, these are not true NPT's so-to-speak-some do have dirt and all of them have live plants but just not planted per se'-these are generally used for spawning and rearing fry in once the water temp reach at least 66F and night time temps are at least 70F


----------



## Pinkieswear

I'm wondering if I have enough plants in here now? I took everything out because the nitrite levels were the prettiest magenta for over a week and it looked like maybe my substrate was too thick. SO I started over and it's about an inch shallower.
1.5 inch bottom including cap









Here is what is looked like before and the nitrites were perpetually above 5.0ppm so I removed Rengar and ordered a palm filter since the lil one wasn't doing anything. I thought it had enough plants I was wrong. 










So I'm wondering now what if anything can i do to make this a more viable home. I have TONSSS of other plants floating in two other tanks just need a lil help on what to change.


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## Julie7778

Does anyone have experience with foreground plants? I want to cover my Fluval EBI with a carpet but I can't seem to find any. I think the light the kit comes with is good. But I see people doing a dry start and adding CO2 or other additives and I'm not very experienced so any tips of what carpet plant that will grow well in my fluval ebi and I wont need to add a lot of stuff. Or if I do please tell me!
Could anyone explain a dry start and why its good? Curiosity wise.


----------



## Strawberry12

I have two new NPTs right now, and i'm such a dork, i'm sitting at work like IWANTTOWORKONMYTANKS


----------



## pbxbelmar

*Re-starting in the hobby*

Wow. Just read through this whole thread. What a wealth of information! Planning to bring my 40g bowfront back to life and would like to do it as inexpensively as possible and create a tank that is both lovely and low maintenance. 

I was wondering - there is a pond near my house and the flora in there is just starting to sprout. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of algae for the new growth to fight through. If I were to harvest plants from there do you think it would be awfully risky to use them (after I wash them down and remove the detritus and algae) in this type of tank?


----------



## Oldfishlady

First make sure it is legal to harvest plants from local waters.

When I harvest native plants for my tanks-I like to keep them in a bucket of water outside for awhile and change the water daily and rub/rinse the plants-removing any dirt, debris, algae and bug larva.

I found I have better luck with native plants if I do a slow acclimation with them too...More for lighting than anything else-going from natural sun to florescent light can sometimes cause problems for them depending on species-What I do, while I have them in QT and cleaning-I slowly move them from sun, partial sun then shade-once I get them inside I place florescent light over them 10-12/day depending on time of year lighting-I pick off any damaged, dead or dying leaves-This process usually can take anywhere from 2-4 weeks more or less-all depending on plant species-some do better inside than others.

If you haven't already and if your light bulb is older than 6mo of age-I would go ahead and get another one-Daylight 6500k is what I recommend and use-I buy my bulbs at walmart or any home store that sells light bulbs-I don't buy aquarium bulbs since they cost more for the same bulb elsewhere....lol.....GE brand is what I get but only because that is what the usually have.
Proper lights with the correct color temp can be the difference between success and failure with live plants and the color temp is used up within 6-12mo on florescent bulbs depending on photoperiod and the plants can't see the light for energy and growth-you can see the light but the plants can't...so best to change them out every 6mo-1 year with live plants IME

Good luck


----------



## pbxbelmar

Thanks! I will check with the park rangers on the harvesting. The light I have for this tank has a compact fluorescent bulb that definitely needs replaced. Don't know if they carry them at Wally World?

Do you have a favorite place to purchase plants online? My LFS rarely has much in the way of choices. Am having a hard time finding a nice small round gravel. May have to settle for the bagged stuff at the LFS, though that would not be my first choice.

Thanks again


----------



## Oldfishlady

I like to get my small diameter gravel at home depot or lowes-back in the plant/landscape section-usually can get a 40-50lb bag for around $5.00 (natural river rock)-I get my play sand and pool filter sand there too that I use in my tanks.

I buy a lot of plants on ebay-I only buy from USA sellers due to laws in my state-Aquabid is also a good place, but I like ebay more due to free shipping on a lot of items and shipping cost can add up....lol......
You might also check your area for any local aquarium clubs-even if the club isn't near you, often a member will be and you can get some great plant deals-with the plus of plants already acclimated to your local water. A lot of aquarium clubs will have forums that you can join without having to pay any fee to join the club itself, however, it can be a big benefit to be a member of a local club-lots of great people along with great info...just a thought....google search your state-never know what will pop up downstream.....


----------



## pbxbelmar

I was at Home Depot yesterday, as a matter of fact. 
The only gravel they had was that largish orange pebble stuff. I did get a good bag of sand, however. 

Dr.'s Foster/Smith have an aquarium magazine with plants, and there are a zillion others online. Can get overwhelming. Will check out Aquabid and see if there's a club around here. Used to be one not too far away a few years back. Went to a couple meetings but they charge a yearly fee and it's not really 'local'. lol

I'll see if I can figure out how to make an Aquarium folder on here...was looking for yours but couldn't find it. lol


----------



## TerriGtoo

Strawberry12 said:


> I have two new NPTs right now, and i'm such a dork, i'm sitting at work like IWANTTOWORKONMYTANKS


 
LOL. I'm sitting at work like IJUSTWANTTOGETTHEHECKOUTTAHEREPERIOD!


----------



## asparks

This is the best thread. Thank you for such great info everyone!

So, I have been lurking on the forum for.....2 years? LOL I was told when I started a new job that I could have a betta or something in my office and I was going to do it right away but then decided to wait because I wanted to do it right. Animal husbandry is super SUPER important to me so I didn't want to screw it up! Long story short - the last 2 years kind of got away from me and I'm just getting back to making my plans to add a betta to my office. I am waiting to hear about a promotion this week which would likely include a move to a different office on another floor, so I'm still not in a giant hurry.....

I think I've read enough info to complete my 5g NPT, but I have one (for now) follow up question regarding soil. In reading the original instructions by OFL, I should be able to prepare the tank and add a betta, shrimps and snails all on the same day. I *love* the idea of being able to do everything all at once! BUT further into the thread, it looks like others don't recommend doing that with the soil I *thought* I might use - Miracle Gro Organic Potting Soil. If the goal is to do everything all at once, should I use a simple top soil instead?

I have the tank, canopy, desk lamp (which I will add a 6500k light bulb to), adjustable heater, sponge filter & air pump, have plants picked out which include floaters (water lettuce), rosettes, and stems totaling 20 plants, 9 varieties (on the listing it says enough for 7-9g tank and I would prefer heavier planted, so I think this is a good thing?), will be picking up Petco black sand, and plan to get MTS and RCS. I will also likely add assassins later down the road to control the MTS population if it gets crazy. I'm a little worried I am forgetting something, but my biggest concern right now is the type of soil I need to get to be able to create this great home for a betta all in one fell swoop.

I tend to overthink pet care sometimes, which is part of the reason it hasn't been done over the last 2 years! Am I just crazy overthinking this thing and making it a bigger "thing" than it needs to be????

Edit: ALSO - part of my fear of a NPT is the fact that I can keep birds, dogs, rats....and my human child.....alive, but I have tried regular plants and they just do not thrive for me. So I am a little afraid - but I think since these are aquatic plants and I don't need to worry about watering on a schedule, and because I've read so much about the type of light that seems to work best - I think I might be able to make this NPT thing work.

Sorry for such a loooooooong post!


----------



## Oldfishlady

I have always setup an NPT and added all the livestock the same day-I just setup 2 new 5gal NPT's over the past 2 weeks and added 2 and 3 week old Betta fry-along with the shrimp and snails I normally add-Everyone still alive and well-

I wanted to do an experiment with the 2 tanks regarding how I set them up (_I bought 4 of the 5gal acrylic tanks at a fish Auction last month for $5.00 each_)....anyway...

I normally set everything up dry-then add water between soil/sand layers-I did that to one and that always results in needing to make 3-4 partial water changes to get it clear and so I wanted to try it different on one...

What I did-I added my potting soil (about 1.5in) and hand packed it down-then added my sand (a little less than an inch) then added my water-about half full-drained- then planted(about 50 stems, 2 rosettes, 4-5 water lettuce and a handful duckweed) and filled it up-water. Since it was clear it didn't need another water change-Add my snails, shrimp and Betta fry.....waited 4 days and made a 25% water only change and another one 5 days later-All livestock doing well....

Sometimes I will use a filter short term when I first setup a NPT, however, since I added fry I didn't add any type of filtration.

The biggest issue with the soil based setup and reason for failure-Is not having enough of the right species of plants to start out with.

I can't stress enough on how important the number and species of live plants used for this type of setup are-Lots of stem-at least 3-4 different species and floating plants in the beginning-these are what keep the water and livestock safe-provided that you have the proper lights and it sounds like you do-Daylight 6500k under 6mo of age started on a 12h/day PP to stimulate plant growth. You should need to make a plant trim and remove some of the excessive floating plants within 7-10 days after setup due to growth/reproduction.

As for soil-I have used many different type of potting soil and have found them all to work about the same-I haven't used the Miracle grow potting soil in years-I just look for potting soil that is limited on additives and peat moss.

Side note-sometimes the assassin snails can be hard on the RCS-as well as some filters-if you plan a filter I would recommend a sponge-otherwise the baby RCS can be killed in the filter.

Good luck-


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## asparks

Okay - so do you think I need to double the plants then? It is a mixture of different types of stems and a couple different rosette plants as well as one type of floater, but it is only 20 plants total. If I should double it to make it work well, I totally will! I did find Earthgro Top Soil is at Home Depot for about 1/2 as much as the Miracle Gro Organic Potting Soil, so I will probably use that instead anyway.

I had already read about how hard some filters can be on bettas and saw that a sponge filter is really best, so that is what I purchased already to add to the tank. Glad to know it will be safer for the other critters in the tank, too!

I didn't know assassins could be so hard on RCS. Hmmmmm......I really hate the thought of smashing baby trumpets (Yes, I'm a baby!) but maybe that is what is going to have to happen if I don't want the shrimpies to be destroyed by assassins. I have a little more time to think about assassins, since I probably won't get any of those until after I get the tank up and running anyway. I wonder if there any other betta/RCS-safe critters that would also eat the trumpets if they start getting out of hand.....will have to look at that part a little bit more!

Edited to say: Thanks OFL for replying! I was hoping you would.


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## mystima

I want to start a planted tank but I am on a budget. I was thinking that I could get some of the items for the tank like the soil, then sand, then plants. I know this would take a few months as I am limited to how much I can spend on my two hobbies. I have two plants in my regular tank already and the rest are silk. I was thinking that I could get some terracotta pots and plant them in the pots and put them in the tank when i get them so that they will not die as I am waiting on the rest of the items to complete the full tank. would that be a good way to start?


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## BettaObsessed

I have two questions. 
1) I have an already existing tank that I'd like to turn into a NPT. I can remove gravel with the water in, but can I add dirt with the water in if I remove the fish for a few hours to allow it to settle? I wouldn't mind removing all the water if it was a 10 gallon, or even a 15 gallon, but it's a 60 gallon. 

2) Can I leave my filters on in the tank if I want to? I just don't want to remove them, especially after I got my cycle going.


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## FishyFishy89

BettaObsessed said:


> I have two questions.
> 1) I have an already existing tank that I'd like to turn into a NPT. I can remove gravel with the water in, but can I add dirt with the water in if I remove the fish for a few hours to allow it to settle? I wouldn't mind removing all the water if it was a 10 gallon, or even a 15 gallon, but it's a 60 gallon.
> 
> 2) Can I leave my filters on in the tank if I want to? I just don't want to remove them, especially after I got my cycle going.


Nononononono
Never ever add dirt to a tank full of water. You'll just get a muddy mess. Remove all water, add your dirt layer. Carefully add water until your dirt layer is damp or slightly soggy. Add your cap layer and then slowly add all your water. 

Your cycle will start completely over regardless of whether or not your filter is on. Also, to clarify cycles aren't halted or harmed when filters are turned off.


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## BettaObsessed

So even if I soak the media in tank water while I am working, I will lose my cycle? And ugh... I do not want to remove the water... Maybe this isn't for me. I'm confused... I thought that the bacteria would be okay for a few hours if I kept the media wet? I think I'll probably keep some old water. Is it the fact that I'm removing the gravel that causes me to have to recycle my tank?


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## FishyFishy89

The media will be fine unless it dries out over night. If you're worried about it you can let it sit in tank water while you're working. 
Using old water doesn't help. Your cycle isn't in the water column. It's on surfaces in the tank. 
If you're using the same gravel and tank decor you may not start completely over. If you have a fully planted tank, you're cycle will be almost nonexistent.


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## BettaObsessed

Thanks, I was thinking old water so I don't shock the fish, I would be using the old gravel as it is pretty small in diameter. I don't actually have any hard scape items, just artificial plants... Maybe I should look into that...


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## ChelsRaeLynn

So this has probably been answered already and I missed it, but do you need to mineralize the soil before you put it in? I plan on using some top soil from an old garden that my grandparents had


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## FishyFishy89

ChelsRaeLynn said:


> So this has probably been answered already and I missed it, but do you need to mineralize the soil before you put it in? I plan on using some top soil from an old garden that my grandparents had


No you don't need to mineralize the soil.


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## ChelsRaeLynn

What if it's a packaged soil such as Miracle Grow Organic?


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## FishyFishy89

ChelsRaeLynn said:


> What if it's a packaged soil such as Miracle Grow Organic?


Should be fine. I immediately capped, filled, landscaped and stocked my tank using that very soil.


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## lalbertson

*Planted Tank Advice*

I'm hoping to start my first planted tank soon. I've made a list of plants I want to start with and want to know if i should add some more and also what the best soil to use is? So far I am planning on getting westeria, 3 types of floating plants, retail indica, v. spirals, and amazon sword. These are all 2-3 stems of each plant. Is that enough for a 10 gallon tank or should I get more?


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## IsaiahKey

I'm wanting to make sure I understand this right. So long as I have the proper soil, cap, plants, and lighting, I should be able to successfully stock, say, a three gallon tank with a few MTS and RCS? And that's without a filter?

Because I have a 3 gal tank that needs to get some hard water stains scrubbed off and I want to have a shrimp tank to breed and either sale/make a potential snack/tankmate for my betta. Plus it'd be good practice for when I want to plant a 20 long community tank.


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## Sephie

I really want to turn my 15 gallon tank into a natural soil based tank, how many plants would be ideal for it? Can you do too many? I currently have a huge double fin betta, a swordtail mollie and green/spotted cory catfish hybrid.

What else should I get for the tank? I don't want to over whelm the tank with too much, but love the look of a natural tank and like the idea of it being a little ecosystem. (Eventually I will have a 100 gallon tank.)


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## Caelth

Marking this for later. Thanks!


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