# Culling



## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

I have a question:

Why do we call it culling instead of killing?


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Culling is when you humanely euthanize a living creature. You actually care about the animal's well-being if it's going to suffer or not. Killing is when you literally end the creature's life with vain and purpose. There's a difference.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Most of the time (particularly for fish) culling means killing. But for some, culling can also mean just removing that animal from the gene pool by either selling it as a pet only, or having it spayed/neutered. 

Of course you can't spay/neuter a fish. However, some breeders will sell 'culls' on as pets rather than kill them.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

Hmmmm, thank you LebronTheBetta and LittleBettaFish


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## hannah16 (Mar 3, 2011)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Most of the time (particularly for fish) culling means killing. But for some, culling can also mean just removing that animal from the gene pool by either selling it as a pet only, or having it spayed/neutered.
> 
> Of course you can't spay/neuter a fish. However, some breeders will sell 'culls' on as pets rather than kill them.


This is true, but some breeders also give the culls away for free.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

Oh i also have another question: 

What reasons would a breeder and a knowledgeable fish person cull a fish?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Personally, since my wilds breed true and don't really have a standard as such, I would only cull for actual physical deformities. 

This is things like bent spines, missing ventrals (I personally hate the look of bettas with no ventrals), extremely bad scaling etc. 

Also if certain fry seem to be falling behind or not thriving compared to their siblings, and I don't see an improvement after a period of time I will cull. 

I don't really seem to get a lot of deformities though. Never had a missing ventral, and the only fry that had a crooked spine has recovered and now I can't even point it out in the grow-out tank. I think most of my weaker fry tend to cull themselves as I am a pretty harsh fry raiser.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

I cull fish with messy scales, extreme rt, turning vt-ish, deformed bodies, runts and anything else I find thats undesirable. Im too fussy with them lol


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## Hopelessaddict101 (Dec 30, 2012)

In New Zealand,
We'd cull fish with messy scales (as these are hard to breed out), deformities, etc etc, unless we were sure for _certain_ that the owner would not be using the fish for breeding purposes. 

Some also cull fry if they have too much, or if they are sick, slow etc.

'Culling' essentially is the process of getting rid of an animal that have bad deformities, genes etc that aren't desired, or the fish is extremely sick.

'Killing' implies that it is done in cold blood.

Generally when a breeder 'culls' a fish, it's because they are looking for best interests in their Betta lines, not because they hate them etc.

I know a lot of breeders here in NZ cull fish, especially because of messy scales as it's hard to breed out and wouldn't be too good if it got into New Zealands already limited Betta population.


- Hopeless


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## sainthogan (Sep 27, 2012)

My male that I have was part of a cull. I got him for free (I only paid shipping), with the agreement that I would not ever breed him. So not all breeders cull by euthanizing the fish, some do give them away to good homes.


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## Hopelessaddict101 (Dec 30, 2012)

I don't think anyone in this thread has actually said all breeders euthanize them lol. ^


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## sainthogan (Sep 27, 2012)

Hopelessaddict101 said:


> I don't think anyone in this thread has actually said all breeders euthanize them lol. ^


I know, I read that after I posted my reply.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Culling is the polite name for killing a fish, usually because it is better then letting it live. I personally do not like people who kill because of messy fins, bad scales, or what ever because YOU brought life into the world, and YOU have the responsibility to care for it.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

So sorry. That kind of came across wrong. I do not like it when people do that, it doesn't mean I personally don't like them.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

To many breeders, the most responsible thing is to cull/kill those fish that don't come up to scratch. Sometimes it can be difficult enough to find homes for all the nice fish out of a spawn, let alone those fish that are duds. 

A single spawn can give you a couple of hundred fry. That is a lot of money, space and time that has to be dedicated to each of those fish. Why waste resources on a fish that is just going to have to be given away? 

I know that most breeders outside of the big farms in Asia aren't making a living off their fish, but it is nice to actually break even every now and then. 

Say 50/100 bettas from one spawn have terrible fins, bad scaling and no ventrals. There is not a market for those sort of fish, so why invest all that time into raising 50 fish that are going to struggle to find a *good* home. 

I would rather cull down to the best of the best and know that those fish are going to find good homes, rather than have to dump 50 culls on my local fish store and pray that they don't end up in a dirty bowl on someone's kitchen counter. 

There's nothing wrong with a quick, humane death. Culling has happened ever since man first decided to domesticate and purpose breed animals.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

I thank all of you 

So now i have another question:
What are ways to cull baby fish?


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

"In New Zealand..." Yay another kiwi!!

"I would rather cull down to the best of the best and know that those fish are going to find good homes, rather than have to dump 50 culls on my local fish store and pray that they don't end up in a dirty bowl on someone's kitchen counter."

These are my exact thoughts too. Plus once a sub par fish is out of your hands then you have no contol whether they breed it or not and risk further spreading those bad genes around the gene pool

To cull a fish is quite easy
Feed them to a big fish, poison them with clove oil, squish them. As long as its quick and effective its fine.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

trilobite said:


> "In New Zealand..." Yay another kiwi!!
> 
> "I would rather cull down to the best of the best and know that those fish are going to find good homes, rather than have to dump 50 culls on my local fish store and pray that they don't end up in a dirty bowl on someone's kitchen counter."
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%

Giving the fish to a petshop...you might as well just cull them because you are dooming the vast majority of them to a horrid life. Now if I knew people who wanted to take in some culls and promised not to breed them, people from say this site yes i would certainly give them up to those people but doesn't mean all what...500 culls or so a year will find such a home. Most of those fish would have to go to petshops and honestly that's WORSE than culling, sit in tiny dirty cups until someone puts you in a tiny cold and dirty bowl and leaves you to die? It's RARE the fish from petshops get good homes with good people who research them, at this point the fish IS suffering MY fish who I put hard work into. Might as well have had a bent spine because either way life if hell and the fish would have been happier dead than living like that. It's the same with show mouse breeders. Unwanted babies are better off dead than homeless and living in dirty abusive situations.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't really believe in killing a fish just because a few scales don't look right or has a wonky fin.I have 3 from breeders that were culls but the breeders wanted them to have a good home so they gave them to me. When I get settled in Texas I wantto take in culls that would otherwise be. euthanized . If a fish has a deformity that would cause it to have no quality of life then it should be humanely euthanized.
edit : the boy in my avatar is a cull.


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## Hopelessaddict101 (Dec 30, 2012)

If you live in a place where Fighters are very, very common, then you wouldn't have to worry about the wrong genes getting into the population, because you have plenty that aren't.

But in little countries like New Zealand, where there is only a limited ammount of fighter fish (Thanks to tough imports and lack of owners), you really do *not* want those genes getting into the population. If they got into the wrong hands, or an inexperienced breeder, they would breed them, then sell them, and the cycle would carry on. Then it would be even more difficult to stop the gene than it is just culling them to prevent it.


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## Kytkattin (May 15, 2011)

I don't breed, but if I do get the reason behind culling. I think it would be easier to do when they are small and can easily be fed to something else. I think that culling once they are fully grown would be harder, especially if it was for something like the fish not having a full spread or not enough rays. Though I also realize that it is a fish eat fish world in nature. When you think of it that way, and when you think of all the fish dying in cups at Petco, Petsmart, Walmart, the various dollar stores, in people's homes and offices in vases, or simply flushed live down the toilet because someone got bored with it, culling is definitely the most humane option.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

Well my July is a feather tail:








I was hoping to breed him for his cute babies and keep them as pets, and probably give a couple to some of my friend(non betta addicts). Because of him having the feather, would he have been culled and is breeding him a bad idea. (i don't want to show him, so don't speak of it it lol)


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Well breeding him only to keep some for pets and give a few others to friends means you would have to cull most of his babies or give them to a petshop which really is just as bad as culling them anyways. I would say if you just want more pets rescue betta's rather than make more. Too many betta are dying in petshops as is, wouldn't they want a home more? Don't they deserve one? I don't feel people should breed unless it's to show, if they want to breed to just have more pets then buy the fish who need homes. Otherwise you are just adding to the fish suffering in stores.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Isn't feather tail just a more extreme version of rosetail? Bad idea to spawn him if he truly is a feather tail. I don't know much about counting rays or what is considered excessive branching so can't help you there. 

However, look up 'x-factor' fish. This can be the sad result of using RT stock for breeding. A couple of people have said that there is a high cull rate in RT spawns. Plus it can take a long time to get the effects of that out of a line. 

Honestly, I don't see the point in breeding for 'pet' fish. There are so many out there already in the tanks of breeders or languishing on store shelves that there is really no need. 

Your male's fins are way too messy for me to think he is breeding quality.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

+1


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

The reason people cull is to prevent those fish from being bred, so no, you should never breed it.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

Ok i did some research that i obviously needed because yall were scaring me thinking my fish is some kind of diabolical creature. Ok, so he is not a (ROSE TAIL). (ROSE TAIL) where the rays over lap making a flower look. He is not a ( X-FACTOR) either. (X-FACTOR) consist of the fish having poor scales, shorter ventrals, and collapsing fins. He also is not an (FEATHER). (FEATHERING) where the branching extends from the top and the bottom of the ray, making more than 8 rays, creating a feather-like look.http://vanriel.myadsl.nl/Carmen-Fantail.jpg


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

He's still not breeding quality and unless you have a spectacular female, what would be the point of breeding him only to cull down the numbers for a handful of pets and giveaways?


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

+1

I still say in that situation it's better to save other suffering fish in the store. If you were breeding seriously long term with goals and maybe the idea to show then I could see breeding as an option but it seems you only want more pets...more pets...stores are overflowing with dying betta who need a home. It's like a person breeding their dog to own puppies while hundreds of dogs are put down in shelters every day. Why?


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

YEA I NO HE IS NOT BREEDING WORTHY, But i want to know why besides his extended rays and bent rays. And I do not what to breed him any more i was planning to because i thought he was the most amazing betta in the world because of his deformities, but yall change that whole feeling. I feel like im two faced now, when im away from this forum and im looking at him, hes cute, adorable and my little baby that i saved from a harsh life. But when im on this site reading yalls post i feel he is a monstrosity and never should have been born.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

As a breeder you do not look at the breeding suitability of your fish from an emotional standpoint. Otherwise it clouds your objectivity. 

Some of my favourite fish have had atrocious form but it doesn't mean that I have liked them any less. It just means they are not of the quality to be bred from.

You just enjoy your male for what he is, a pet. The market for bettas is saturated with average, pet quality fish so I would not recommend adding to it.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

So do you not feel happy when you are going to breed your betta?


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

+1 to Little

He's a great pet but not for breeding so love him as a pet. 

Also like said breeding isn't something you can make too emotional. With the culling and the work ahead and breeding for better form you can't let emotion get in the way. You can't breed a fish because you love him. Bad form is bad form. They can be wonderful pets still which is just as good. Breeding is also a lot more than just making pets for yourself, I don't think a single breeder breeds to have more betta fish as pets. Everyone breeds with a goal in mind, some are breeding for a certain strain, a certain color, some to win shows, some to improve the species, some to save a dying old breed, some make money though they often fail and fall to the wayside. 

Your fish isn't a monster, if that is how you feel about him as a pet then you are in betta's for the wrong reasons my friend. He's a wonderful pet yes. I have a dog with three legs, LIKE HELL I would breed him, he's fixed but he's still an AMAZING pet despite his deformities. No your fish isn't breeding worthy but he is pet worthy. In fact a lot of culls who are not killed are sold to only be pets NOT to be bred. So though a breeder would have culled him an owner can love him as their treasured family member.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

LadyVictorian said:


> Your fish isn't a monster, if that is how you feel about him as a pet then you are in betta's for the wrong reasons my friend..


When i first got him, I was on a mission to find a black Hm. But then i found him (I would never pick him because he was not the color i wanted and because he was labeled super delta), But as soon as i saw him i new he was the fish i wanted. I only started wanting to breed him as of lately because he is adorable, i have the money to support babies, I seen all these other post with people so happy about there babies and i wanted to see what a yellow or black with his color would make.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Answer...a mess

If you bred to him it would have to be a straight blue or straight red otherwise you will mostly just get blues with washed out other colors.

Another option if you really want to just have the joy of baby fish...petco baby rescue. You still get a baby fish and also save a fish and still get another pet in the end.


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## eatmice2010 (Jan 1, 2013)

LadyVictorian said:


> Another option if you really want to just have the joy of baby fish...petco baby rescue. You still get a baby fish and also save a fish and still get another pet in the end.


Ya, I would do that but i dont like that i dont no what im going to end up with. I think i might just set up my other tank and get another adult male from the place i got July, but this time i know what to watch out for.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Well when you breed you don't know what you are ending up with either. Unless you have studied genetics and your pair are from a tracked line.

Also with most petco babies if you are good at gendering you can tell what is a male and female or at least have a good idea. I am able to tell them apart now. Plus their color is pretty obvious a lot too. When i got my girl I could see the red in her tail and sure enough she grew into a bright orange tail and I could see the blue in her body and she grew to have a lavender body. Just have to look harder than most other grown fish to see them. Not long ago I even saw a tiny baby who I could tell was going to be a marble boy. Very pretty, his body was getting very white and he had one blue spot oh him. His ventral's pointed to male too so I was 98% sure he was a boy which was why I didn't get him, I only have room for girls right now.

I say if you really want to get into breeding learn form standards for the tailtypes, also look into genetics and learn about color's and genetics following betta color and tailtypes. 

Actually when I first seriously got into training to breed mice I made a WHOLE 'stable' of imaginary mice, wrote out their genotypes and phenotypes and breed them and calculated their offspring. I also found a cool online game based on breeding and genetics of griffins that had a very set line and was actually very educational and realistic and also based off real horse genetics as well. My cousin did a whole report on the site for biology class and got an A. I'm doing that now even with betta stuff, if you could see the stack of printoffs and charts I threw together revolving around betta genetics. Also helps to join IBC if you want to breed.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I think breeding has to be done completely objectively. Once subjectivity enters the equation, the blinkers usually come on and people fail to see the faults in their fish. Yes, there is no such thing as the perfect fish, but there are varying levels of quality between individuals. 

It is hard slog to produce high quality stock if you start down the very poor end of the spectrum. That is going to be a lot of culling and work to iron out the kinks and produce a solid line of betta. This is why people always advise to start off with the best possible fish you can, as it increases the odds of you producing offspring on par or even better than their parents. 

There's no use aiming for average. Whenever you breed anything, always aim for the best. You have to remember, it's going to take roughly the same time and effort to raise a tank of culls as it is to raise a tank of show quality fish. And in the end, it's the better quality fish that are going to be the ones that find homes the fastest. 

If you are unsure of what a quality betta looks like, maybe contact one of the more experienced breeders on here. A good mentor, can always help train your eye.


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