# Mixing Tail Types



## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

I was wondering what would the tail of the frys would look like of the following pair (given that they are pure)

VTxHMPK
VTxCT
VTxDTPK
DeTxCT
DeTxHMPK
DeTxVT


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## RainbowhLizzie (Sep 15, 2013)

I heard that VT and CT make combtails. 

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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Honestly I wouldn't even consider any of those considerations... It's best not to mess with those kind of things as a lot of undesirable fish come out of the mix


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

I was hoping to do a VTxHMPK (im a VT lover) since I got a pure male VT (dragonscale) and was hoping to buy a female red dragonscale HMPK at aquabid hoping to get more HMPK, delta and VT frys with dragonscale

(Its pretty hard for me to find a female VT with dragonscale so I was hoping to cross him to my next favorite tail type HMPK)


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't think that's how it works... I think you'd get nearly 100% Veiltail with a mix of shorter finned veiltails but not Full HmpkVT. Just some odd looking VT's.. Maybe you'd get some HMPK's it'd be an interesting spawn for sure


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Indeed xDDD

(NOTE: im not doing this to earn money but just because I love VTs and bettas so much )


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

LOL imagine if i get a fry with short caudal with long dorsal and anal fin xD


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

lol.. If I were you I would just wait to find the perfect VT girl or go and find a nice HM, or HMPK girl


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

I found 2 candidates to buy at aquabid which do you guys prefer? http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1385491346
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1385656902


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Well if you insist on breeding HMPK x VT I myself would prefer the first one.. There are some black dragons on eBay from the USA


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Mo said:


> Well if you insist on breeding HMPK x VT I myself would prefer the first one.. There are some black dragons on eBay from the USA


The second one was my last choice in case if the first one has been sold and also its bidding end date is closing in and im still talking to the transhipper xD


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## redthebetta (Aug 11, 2013)

AnythingxVT will make VTs. you may be able to widen the spread to an HM but it would take about 30 generations probably.


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Its okay for me!
But im pretty worried how much percent of the fry will be dragonscale with dragonscalexdragonscale


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

VT is a long drapey tail. It is also 2-rayed. It is also quite dominant. So by mixing VT you get messy tails that you cannot really see the influence of any other tail types it. 
VTxHMPK=shorter finned VT with a possibly wider caudal spread.
VTxCTPK will get shorter finned VT as both are 2 ray tail types generally.
VTxCT will get a slight reduction in webbing that will likely look like fin rot.
VTxDTPK will get you the same as VTxCTPK except you will be adding in longer dorsals. Longer nose to tail not longer height wise.
DeTxCT will get you a reduction in the webbing of a Det. The combtail effect.
DeTxHMPK will get DeT
DeTxVT=VT

Breeding HMPK or HM will not get you 100% HM. Many will be DeT anyway just because they don't make the whole spread.

Breeding dragonscale to non-dragonscale usually gets you a handful of dragonscales or dragonscale patches on the fry. Breeding dragonscale to dragonscale doesn't usually get you full coverage on all your fry. It will be patchy on at least some of them.

Keep longer tail types together for best results on the VT breeding. Breeding DT into VT will lengthen the dorsals. Breeding HM into VT will widen the caudal. Any other pairings with the VT would probably reduce the quality of the fry instead of enhancing it.

I think you can find better specimens stateside than either of those two females from Thailand.

What are your color goals and fin type goals?


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

VT is dominant over all tail types. You would mostly get VTs, round tails, spades (?), and nothing like a HMPK. If you are a VT lover, why not just spawn VT x VT? 

IMO, I would not mix tail types like this as it can be very unpredictable and the fry could end up undesirable.


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

As mention, i am indeed a vt lover but im also hoping to get most of the frys to be dragonscales and thats why


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## PetMania (Mar 28, 2013)

No, I know you are a VT lover, but the tails could end up messy (most likely will). You would need a few generations to bring the dragonscale into a VT purely.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

You wont get any dragons from dragon x non. Youll most likey get fish with a few shiny scales on their face. If I were you Id at least try and find a dragon vt to cross to the dragon hmpk so you get full dragons and then work towards nice 2 ray vt from that. Otherwise you will be producing pretty much run of the mill mutts both colour and form wise

Also bear in mind that vt should have 2 rays, by adding in all those extra rays from the hmpk youd have to weed out everything thats not 2 ray. Plus you want to keep your tail edges round and your fins nice and pointy. Infact youll be lucky if you even get a good vt from F1. Most will have messy 4 rays

Its kinda like separating two colours of play-doh once theyve been mixed together. Can be done but its hard work to get the colours completely separate without some influence of the other colour


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Read this for a general idea
Form Breeding


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

trilobite said:


> You wont get any dragons from dragon x non. Youll most likey get fish with a few shiny scales on their face. If I were you Id at least try and find a dragon vt to cross to the dragon hmpk so you get full dragons and then work towards nice 2 ray vt from that. Otherwise you will be producing pretty much run of the mill mutts both colour and form wise
> 
> Also bear in mind that vt should have 2 rays, by adding in all those extra rays from the hmpk youd have to weed out everything thats not 2 ray. Plus you want to keep your tail edges round and your fins nice and pointy. Infact youll be lucky if you even get a good vt from F1. Most will have messy 4 rays
> 
> Its kinda like separating two colours of play-doh once theyve been mixed together. Can be done but its hard work to get the colours completely separate without some influence of the other colour



I already have VT dragonscale male


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

indjo said:


> Read this for a general idea
> Form Breeding



Thanks! That was really informative! I was hoping to run into that kind of thread


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

PetMania said:


> No, I know you are a VT lover, but the tails could end up messy (most likely will). You would need a few generations to bring the dragonscale into a VT purely.


Since Vt dragonscale femalw is pretty hard to find especially a breeder that would ship into my country


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh and yeah, the characteristics of the fry i would be hoping for are VT, spade tail and (hopefully) plakat.

For the color it will be red to devil red and dragonscales


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Here is my male !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kG5xCiKIRs
I put a mirror on the right side of his tank so you guys could see him full flare.. He is still young and I can see white edges in his tail fin proof that his fins are still growing longer


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

You don't need a dragonscale VT female. A dragonscale halfmoon will do. Find the longest dorsal, widest caudal spread and most dragonscale coverage you can. You will have to weed out the fry that have more than two rays but I doubt there will be many.

Your video is marked private.

What color do you mean by devil red? Red fins and what colored body?


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Ilikebutterflies said:


> You don't need a dragonscale VT female. A dragonscale halfmoon will do. Find the longest dorsal, widest caudal spread and most dragonscale coverage you can. You will have to weed out the fry that have more than two rays but I doubt there will be many.
> 
> Your video is marked private.
> 
> What color do you mean by devil red? Red fins and what colored body?


Im sorry about the video im pretty confused with how youtube is right now and I meant Red devil betta its kinda like butterfly except instead of white its black


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

The butterfly band can be any color. Any _devil_ usually means red fins.
So you want a silver body, red fins with black butterfly banding...right?

Which one do you want to make?


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Ilikebutterflies said:


> You don't need a dragonscale VT female. A dragonscale halfmoon will do. Find the longest dorsal, widest caudal spread and most dragonscale coverage you can. You will have to weed out the fry that have more than two rays but I doubt there will be many.
> 
> Your video is marked private.
> 
> What color do you mean by devil red? Red fins and what colored body?



Its alright now I turned the video for public


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Ilikebutterflies said:


> The butterfly band can be any color. Any _devil_ usually means red fins.
> So you want a silver body, red fins with black butterfly banding...right?
> 
> Which one do you want to make?


 Preferably the the one in the top right.. but anything will do since im not doing this for business purpose or anything


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

OK. Having seen your fish you will be breeding for the top left colored fish. A red dragon butterfly female HM would be your best set. Look for full dragonscaling and fully red colored fins.

The top right is a red dragon with a butterfly band. You have an irid dragon. Your fry will be irid. Irid is blue/green/turquoise. Irid is in the top layer and will be dominant.

The top left is a green devil dragon with a butterfly band. The bottom (my personal fish) is a black copper butterfly.


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Oooh I thought irids were not a dominant trait... too bad but oh well xD
Im also looking for red DSHM female still no luck...
What will be the cons of it if the female was HMPK and not HM?


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## Ilikebutterflies (May 19, 2012)

Read up on the color layers. That will make it easy for you to figure out what mates to get. The cons of an HMPK would be shorter fins. I find it easiest to breed for color first then form/fins. Nothing sucks more than not being able to use a fish because it's the wrong color but has really nice form/fins. If you start with color, you can add in better form and finnage as you go as they become available. Sometimes all you can find is the right color on the wrong fins...


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## jayr232 (Oct 23, 2013)

Ilikebutterflies said:


> Read up on the color layers. That will make it easy for you to figure out what mates to get. The cons of an HMPK would be shorter fins. I find it easiest to breed for color first then form/fins. Nothing sucks more than not being able to use a fish because it's the wrong color but has really nice form/fins. If you start with color, you can add in better form and finnage as you go as they become available. Sometimes all you can find is the right color on the wrong fins...



Ahh like me, I cant seem to find the right colors at the right fins however, If I were to breed a VT and HMPK, chances are I will be able to get an offspring that is a VT with short fins.. However, I can just cross it back to the VT parent to get the tail longer again right?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

jayr232 said:


> Oh and yeah, the characteristics of the fry i would be hoping for are VT, spade tail and (hopefully) plakat.
> 
> For the color it will be red to devil red and dragonscales


Crossing VT to any type will give you a good number of VT. To return it to pure VT, you can always breed back to father. 
If you crossed you male to a PK, you will have some short fins, most probably round tail traditional PK. Inbreed short tailed siblings to work on PK. After a few generations add new HMPK genes - use a male from your line to a new female HMPK. Hopefully that will give you a few DeTPK. Keep working on it in that way to make your HMPK.

Color wise; Dragon scale x non DS = non dragon and partial dragon. Inbreed the partial dragons until you have full dragons. Adding new dragon scales will give you full dragons sooner.
If you want butterfly patterns, whether black or otherwise, it would be easier to get a BF female. Trying to create your own mutation may take for ever. 

Breeding your male to a red female may give you red with lots of irids on them. You will also get colors similar to you male, plus irid with red washes. There are lots of possible combinations. You will have to clean each color line you prefer. To get colors like the male, it would be easier to breed him to an irid with red/yellow fins.


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