# Advice on sorority?



## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm thinking of getting a tank about 25g - 30g to start a sorority. I would get all the females from the same pet store, because they keep them in the same tank already and I think they are also siblings, not entirely sure though. Or I might buy them from a breeder where they may come from the same spawn. 

Anyway I'm looking for some advice to make it work. I have a few questions:

- are peaceful community fish compatible with female bettas? I thought they were but I read you shouldn't put female bettas with peaceful fish. I was hoping to also get some pygmy cories and maybe a few swordtails, and possibly one other type depending on the tank size I got. 

- in approx 25 gallons, would you consider 10 females overstocked? Several people have told me 10 - 15 is ok in 25 - 30g. But I read on here people would keep around 5 - 7 in such sizes. But wouldn't more be a bit better, to disperse aggression?

- in your experience, if they are siblings, will chances of sorority failure be significantly reduced? I mean I know there's always a chance to fail but to what extent would it help?

Do you have any other advice? Again I'm not entirely sure but I am pretty determined to have a sorority sooner or later. I plan to plant it out quite heavily as well. 

Thanks


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

> - are peaceful community fish compatible with female bettas? I thought they were but I read you shouldn't put female bettas with peaceful fish. I was hoping to also get some pygmy cories and maybe a few swordtails, and possibly one other type depending on the tank size I got.


I had guppies and bronze cories in with my sorority. My bronze cories are still alive to this day. If you do add, add the community fish, let your tank settle to that bioload, then add the females. I wouldn't really recommend it because sororities are already a ridiculous balancing act of stress and constant pristine water.



> - in approx 25 gallons, would you consider 10 females overstocked? Several people have told me 10 - 15 is ok in 25 - 30g. But I read on here people would keep around 5 - 7 in such sizes. But wouldn't more be a bit better, to disperse aggression?


No, I had 9 in a 20g long and it dispersed aggression nicely. I would overfilter though. For example, my sorority was in a 20g long and was filtered by a 40g internal, heavily planted and had an auxillary 10g HOB filter.


> - in your experience, if they are siblings, will chances of sorority failure be significantly reduced? I mean I know there's always a chance to fail but to what extent would it help?


I have had no experience with siblings but my experience was not that aggression killed my sorority but stress induced acute columnaris.


> Do you have any other advice? Again I'm not entirely sure but I am pretty determined to have a sorority sooner or later. I plan to plant it out quite heavily as well.


You need to keep this tank clean. Pristinely so. You absolutely cannot be lazy with sororities. If even one thing goes wrong, it will snowball. Mine started with a mysterious plant die off, then snowballed to losing all my female bettas, four cory cats, and two guppies. The plant dieoff started a month prior, and I lost 15 fish in a matter of 48 hours.
These are from my tumblr as my tank crashed:


> I lost two fish today.
> 
> One peppered corydoras and one female betta, Domino.
> 
> ...





> Sorry for a late-ish reply. Had another cory, this time a bronze, drop dead. No external injuries on the dead cory, she was freshly passed. Fins were all intact, no signs of emaciation which would point to not enough food, no signs of rot or disease. Barbels were all intact. There are no signs of disease on any of the surviving fish.
> 
> Full rundown on the tank:
> 
> ...





> Welp, I think my sorority has finally crashed and burned….
> 
> This morning I noticed Shepard with the starts of columnaris to which I quickly read Kanamycin is recommended. Dosed the tank, went to work. Fast forward roughly 8 hours after drive time. Death toll, 3, with all but two of my girls (Silas and an unnamed girl) showing symptoms. Tali’s fighting just to get air at the surface and if I had clove oil, I’d honestly probably euthanize for her own sake. But I have no humane way to end her suffering. The rest of my cories seem to be alright, I had just restocked with plants and now more death. I think once this finishes taking its toll(I’m pretty positive its acute columnaris, since they’re dropping like flies), I might make it a community tank. Sororities just are so stressful.





> Death toll: 7, 1 Dying
> 
> Dead:
> 
> ...





> I have lost all my female bettas, three cory cats, and two guppies. I have a sick seeming cory, but my guppies had babies. An inopportune time, but still makes me happy;
> 
> I have 5-6 little guplets swimming about
> 
> They’re adorable.


The tank went from








to








Also, if things start going wrong, make sure you have the room to separate them. I did not.


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## kittenfish (Dec 1, 2013)

My plants did something like that too! In my case I think it was either my cheap LEDs degrading and not putting out enough of the right spectrum of light or lack of nutrients in the soil. I took it apart, added dirt, and switched to a better light, and the plants recovered.

I have 8 girls (unrelated, added at different times) in a 20g with 7 glowlight tetras, 3 otos, 5 amano shrimp, and a bristlenose pleco. They all get along fine. Just make sure you quarantine everyone!


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

kittenfish said:


> Just make sure you quarantine everyone!


THIS +1 +1 +1 +1

Proper quarantine is crucial. An entire tank can be wiped out by one new unquarantined fish.


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## kitkat67 (Mar 10, 2015)

My sorority grew too quickly in a 10gal. I was inexperienced and didn't know adding all of them at once would be a bad idea. I also had a plant rotting behind the filter, couple with all the poo they produced. They all died of ammonia toxiicty before I figured out what was going on. Add them slowly and make sure you check ammonia often. I would make sure your tank is cycled with a few fish before you reach full sorority.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Personally, I would never have a sorority, nor do I advocate them. Eventually, even if you obtain a group of females from the same spawn they will grow up and once they hit breeding age they will be attacking each other(even if heavily planted). And removing the most aggressive or weakest female will do nothing. The remaining fish will regroup and a new top aggressor and weakest fish will emerge. The stress will always beextremely high among them leading to disease/illness outbreaks.
A sorority will eventually be a very sad disaster.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> Personally, I would never have a sorority, nor do I advocate them. Eventually, even if you obtain a group of females from the same spawn they will grow up and once they hit breeding age they will be attacking each other. And removing the most aggressive or weakest female will do nothing. The remaining fish will regroup and a new top aggressor and weakest fish will emerge.
> A sorority will eventually be a very sad disaster.


Of course there will be a "top aggressor" and "weakest fish" - betta sororities (and many other groups of animals) have hierarchies. It is how they establish claim over territory, food, etc. 
At least three of my sorority girls are at breeding age and they are not killing each other. They have an established hierarchy and the most fighting they do is small tustles, not resulting in more damage than a few chunks taken out of fins. 
Sororities can fail. It is not uncommon at all. But that does not mean every sorority is doomed when the fish hit breeding age.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

The problem with sororities, as I figure it, is we restrict them to ?" x ?" spaces. We put them in an unnaturally small space and expect them to behave and react as they would in the openness of the wild.

Granted there are hierarchies and territories among animals in the wild but the weakest can get out of the strongest's territory. In a closed society they can't; thus the stress and aggression.

Just what seems logical to me. I could be wrong.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

SplashyBetta said:


> Of course there will be a "top aggressor" and Sororities can fail. It is not uncommon at all. But that does not mean every sorority is doomed when the fish hit breeding age.


 
My point is why gamble, with their lives when it may end up in disaster, simply because we are too vain, and think it's going to be great fun. The bettas are the ones to ultimately suffer in the end. Just my opinion, but I believe that people need to think about things like this.

You say that no more than chunks of fins are taken out by your females. That is HUGE to a fish that size. And it is an ongoing aggression. Would you want to be stuck in an enclosed place with other humans who want to attack you? If you lost a few fingers or toes, would that not be a big deal to you on a personal scale? 

And Russ---no you are not wrong. You are dead on. We simply cannot replicate the natural environment for any fish or animal.


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## Wolfstardobe (Jan 28, 2010)

My first and only sorority is currently in my 65gal heavily planted tank. I started with 5 females and upped it to seven. Tank mates are MTSs and Otos as clean up crew and that's it. I have a canister filter meant for a 100 gallon tank on it. There is so little stock that I add fertilizers to keep the plants happy.

In my experience with this sorority the girls rarely interact with each other even during feeding times. I feed in different places in the tank and some eat from the bottom, others eat from the top. They rarely have fin damage but they do flare at each other when they do interact. They have been together for six months. 

My issue with the whole thing is that it's super impersonal. They are less My fish and more The fish. They don't interact with me as any of my separate boys/girl do. They don't do happy little betta dances or anything.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Starting off with a group of young sibling females that have never been separated from each other, is likely going to give you more success than throwing a group of mature and unrelated females together. 

However, Betta splendens are highly unpredictable, and there can be an increase in aggression and a change in dynamics as your females mature. You can't guarantee long-term success with a sorority. It really comes down to how well your females mesh as a group. Also, simply because females appear to get along in the tank at your LFS, don't assume their behaviour will remain the same once they are home. Furthermore, quarantine your females for a minimum of two weeks even if they came from the same tank at the LFS. It's likely their immune systems are going to be pretty weak due to stress, and disease is the last thing you want in a sorority tank. 

I personally wouldn't add any other fish, but the females. The potential is there for the females to be stressed by the presence of the other fish, or for the females to cause stress to the other fish. I think 10 females would be fine in a tank that size. However, I definitely recommend fishless cycling your tank beforehand. Definitely do not attempt to do a fish-in cycle with a sorority. Your aim is to keep stress levels low, and the spikes in ammonia and nitrite that can occur during the cycling process are something you want to avoid. Good water quality is paramount. 

TerriGToo, I don't think a fish having small chunks taken out of its fins is the same as a human having their fingers or toes removed. Yes, you want to avoid serious damage, but healthy fish should heal up quickly from minor damage. My wild bettas can tear each other to shreds during the courtship process, but because they are healthy, they heal up and I rarely have any issues resulting from such injuries. Unfortunately, aggression plays a part in how these fish communicate with each other. The best case is that it is limited to display and posturing, but physical violence is likely to happen at some stage. A few nipped fins here and there don't necessarily mean your sorority is going to erupt into chaos, but these are tanks that you definitely don't set and forget. They do need regular supervision to ensure that no fish is bearing the brunt of the abuse, or that no fish look sickly or stressed. I think many times when hobbyists have had their sororities fall apart, they have missed subtle warning signs in the behaviour of their females. 

I no longer recommend sororities to other hobbyists as I feel the risks are too high for me to personally advocate for them. Serious injury and death are very real possibilities with these tanks, and this simply doesn't sit well with me considering on this forum we push for humane treatment of these fish.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> My point is why gamble, with their lives when it may end up in disaster, simply because we are too vain, and think it's going to be great fun. The bettas are the ones to ultimately suffer in the end. Just my opinion, but I believe that people need to think about things like this.
> 
> You say that no more than chunks of fins are taken out by your females. That is HUGE to a fish that size. And it is an ongoing aggression. Would you want to be stuck in an enclosed place with other humans who want to attack you? If you lost a few fingers or toes, would that not be a big deal to you on a personal scale? .


Fingers and toes don't grow back. Fins do. Bettas can heal up in a matter of days without any lasting effects after receiving fin damage. 
I love my fish dearly, but they are not humans. They don't look at injuries as being "a big deal" or not a big deal in the way us people do. They get a little scraped up, they heal, they're fine again. 

As LittleBettaFish said, sororites are definitely not "set and forget." I spend hours watching my sorority tank. I know the hierarchy, I know the habits of the fish, I know the territories. If anything seems off I intervene.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

+1 to Terri and Russell.

A sorority is a risk I am not willing to take either.It is an unnatural environment/situation for them.Too stressful,too risky IMO.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

SplashyBetta said:


> Fingers and toes don't grow back. Fins do. Bettas can heal up in a matter of days without any lasting effects after receiving fin damage.
> I love my fish dearly, but they are not humans. They don't look at injuries as being "a big deal" or not a big deal in the way us people do. They get a little scraped up, they heal, they're fine again.
> 
> As LittleBettaFish said, sororites are definitely not "set and forget." I spend hours watching my sorority tank. I know the hierarchy, I know the habits of the fish, I know the territories. If anything seems off I intervene.


 
That is true, the fins do grow back, but would you yourself be willing to have fingers or toes taken off, even knowing that, (if it were possible), they would grow back. It is still an injury. And even if their fins do grow back, they are constantly under further attack and risking damage to their fins on an ongoing basis. Not healthy, stressful and potential for rot to set in.

And not only that, but females have been known to go for the eyes of other females. Their eyes most definitely do not grow back.
It's not something that I, as an ethical betta keeper would want to subject them to.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm just casually going to slide this in here. Like LBF said, sororities are unpredictable and could go wrong at any moment. 

A friend of mine once had a sorority. All the girls were from the same spawn and grew up in the same tank before my friend got them. She used a cycled 30 gallon tank for 7 females, heavily planted with both fake and live plants so that you could not see through the tank. She constantly tested the water to make sure the levels were perfect. For a year the sorority was fine, some aggression here and there, there was some fin nipping. Then my friend came home to find that 6 of the girls ganged up on the "alpha" girl and literally had ripped her in half. 

I do not want to risk a fish getting basically eaten alive by her sorority sisters. So like LBF, I do not recommend sororities.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

VivianKJean said:


> I'm just casually going to slide this in here. Like LBF said, sororities are unpredictable and could go wrong at any moment.
> I do not want to risk a fish getting basically eaten alive by her sorority sisters. So like LBF, I do not recommend sororities.


 
I am not surprised. The thing is a person buys a particular female betta (or bettas) because their color and fins are amazing...this is what attracted a person to those particular females. And then they put them all in a tank together. That beauty is not going to last. 

You see a tank full of females for sale in an LFS ( which I also do not like to see and won't purchase from such a shop by the way.) Which females are you going to go for first (aside from a few people here who actively do rescues), the gorgeous perfect females or those who are shredded and desperately trying to run from the others attacking them?

Why buy a gorgeous fish and risk them in a sorority?


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> That is true, the fins do grow back, but would you yourself be willing to have fingers or toes taken off, even knowing that, (if it were possible), they would grow back. It is still an injury. And even if their fins do grow back, they are constantly under further attack and risking damage to their fins on an ongoing basis. Not healthy, stressful and potential for rot to set in.
> 
> And not only that, but females have been known to go for the eyes of other females. Their eyes most definitely do not grow back.
> It's not something that I, as an ethical betta keeper would want to subject them to.


No, but I am not a fish and I do not base the care of my fish on the care of myself.
And as a correction, no, my girls are not under "constant attack." There are many times when they are simply swimming calmly and peacefully alongside one another. They are not in a permanent state of trying to kill one another.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

TerriGtoo said:


> Why buy a gorgeous fish and risk them in a sorority?


exactly. my current female is in a tank all by herself, she is gorgeous and active and I don't have to worry about coming home to her being eaten alive. 



SplashyBetta said:


> No, but I am not a fish and I do not base the care of my fish on the care of myself.
> And as a correction, no, my girls are not under "constant attack." There are many times when they are simply swimming calmly and peacefully alongside one another. They are not in a permanent state of trying to kill one another.


Just because your fish are fine now, doesn't mean they always will. With my friend, she had a peaceful sorority. She left for work, they were still peaceful, and she came home to a fish ripped in half. Sororities can go bad that quickly. They are just not worth the risk.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> Just because your fish are fine now, doesn't mean they always will. With my friend, she had a peaceful sorority. She left for work, they were still peaceful, and she came home to a fish ripped in half. Sororities can go bad that quickly. They are just not worth the risk.


I understand that completely. The same could be said of any of my other betta+fish combo tanks.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

SplashyBetta said:


> No, but I am not a fish and I do not base the care of my fish on the care of myself.
> And as a correction, no, my girls are not under "constant attack." There are many times when they are simply swimming calmly and peacefully alongside one another. They are not in a permanent state of trying to kill one another.


A person who treats animals ethically cares about their welfare as much as their own. I am not suggesting you treat them as you would yourself, since you are not a fish and they are not human. But they ARE entrusted to our care and to even risk their health in a sorority when it is well known that females bettas can get as aggressive as males is taking a gamble.

You misunderstood my comment. I should not have used the word constant but I thought I was making myself clear. Let me rephrase: What I am saying is there is the POTENTIAL for ongoing shredding of fins. Not constant attack. and once a fish is attacked, the possibility of future attack for that particular fish increases. 

I believe the idea of sororities, ( think about that word sororities and how it relates to young college girls btw) and that females could be kept together in happy little "communes" started many many years ago. Years back, female bettas were drab, brown nondescript little things. The money and interest lay in the beautiful males. The breeders recognized this and the males were the ones that got the preferential treatment by breeders and were immediately jarred when they reached the agressive stage. 
The females on the other hand were not popular with the public that the breeders sold to. Breeders had the dilemma (sp?) of what to do with all the females that were less salable. Result they ended up dumped into large tanks. The breeders of course knew they were just as aggressive as males, but they did it to save space.
And I'll bet they jumped at the chance to sell females to people in groups when they could. 

Now that females are being bred with incredibly gorgeous colors and are raking in just as much as the males, the breeders do not keep them all in tanks together, ---or at least the top quality ones--- because they know a female with shredded fins or injuries will not garner the high prices they want.

And trust me, your fish may look peaceful to you but underlying it, every one of those fish is always on guard, ever mindful of it's neighbors. It's the nature of the beast. 

It is a gamble I and many others choose not take.

Do me a favor.......come back to this thread in a year's time and let us know how many fish have been attacked, how many have died, how many have been replaced, and if the sorority is still all you think it is now.


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## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

Well, reading through these replies made me reconsider this. I didn't realise that a few people are actually quite against it, though I definitely understand, especially after reading this all. 

I just got a second hand 35 gallon and will start cleaning it up and everything in a few days (after my exams finish). I wouldn't mind it being just a community tank without a sorority, I guess, although the sorority part was the part I was looking forward to more than the other fish. :/ So conflicted right now haha >.<


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## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

Also, is it ok to keep ONE female betta in a tropical community tank? If I do have just a community tank I'd want to have either one male betta or one female betta, I already have a male in a 6gal and would love to have a female betta.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I don't see why it would be a problem having a female in a community tank. As long as you have a backup plan I'd say go for it.

I really enjoy watching my Betta-based community tanks. I have three but did have four but after a year one of the males started stalking his tank mates. Not waiting for him to go further than stalking, I have moved him to a 5.5 with Dwarf Crays which he doesn't bother. I think it's because they bite back. Keep alert because even if all goes well for over a year you might need that back up.

Have fun and enjoy!


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

I have a king in with my community tank. If you're looking for some options, guppies (such an underrated little fish imo) are incredibly fun. So are pencilfish if you can get your hands on a shoal. Cories are awesome, so are loaches. Shrimp can be really fun too. ADFs aren't a fish, but a group of them can be a barrel of laughs. Mine just came home and already are. Females are, to me, have more personality than boys.


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## SplashyBetta (Jul 28, 2014)

Platies are great for communities^^ They have a lot of personality and are very friendly.


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## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.  Also because I don't want to post a new whole topic, I have 2 questions:

does stocking order matter in the case of a single female betta in a community tank? Like is it ok to add the female betta first, then later add other community fish?

Also, how do you quarantine fish, especially schooling fish that you might get lots of at once?

Thanks

*EDIT*: and one more question, what filter should I get? Considering it's a 35 gallon. I am not going to overstock, just getting some common community fish, average bioload. I don't really want to spend money on a canister filter, does anyone know if a large sponge filter would be sufficient? Or would I need 2? They're the only type I've ever used. Any suggestions/advice?


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

I would add community then female. It keeps her from trying to form a territory and then getting more aggressive. As far as quarantining shoal in fish, you QT them as a group. If they're all from the tank, if one has a disease, so too will the rest. On my 20g long community I have a 40g top fin internal multistage and I'm pretty happy with it. It's got a self baffling spray bar and adjustable flow. However it is rather large so it will take up space.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

One female in a community is fine. 
Or one male in a community is fine. 
Just not both in the same community.


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## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for the help! One more question.. I swear 

I'm wondering what substrate to use? It will be planted and will have cories so I know I need sand for their barbels. Is using only sand sufficient for a planted tank? Also, how many kg/lb will be good for a 35g? I have no idea how much I should be buying.


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

As a general rule, I use 1 lb per gallon. It ends out at about 1 in of substrate. My community tank is just sand asare most of my tanks. Sand is inert so you'd have to dose fertilizers but sand is just fine


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## Wolfstardobe (Jan 28, 2010)

Plain sand is fine as long as you get (or make) root tabs for any root feeders. Having dirt under sand would work too but root tabs still need to be added for heavy root feeders like swords. Miracle grow organic is often used. Water column feeders (stem plants/mosses/plants with rhizomes) need liquid or dry fertilizers.


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## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

Wolfstardobe said:


> Plain sand is fine as long as you get (or make) root tabs for any root feeders. Having dirt under sand would work too but root tabs still need to be added for heavy root feeders like swords. Miracle grow organic is often used. Water column feeders (stem plants/mosses/plants with rhizomes) need liquid or dry fertilizers.


If you use both soil and sand, won't they mix together and just make a mess?


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

The dirt and sand aren't mixed together.
You would put the dirt down first and then the sand on top which acts as a cap and holds the dirt in place. 
You will also need to use a bamboo skewer or straight aquarium tweezers to poke holes in the sand periodically, releasing the gas build-up.


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## Wolfstardobe (Jan 28, 2010)

Also when using a gravel vacc (if you use one) it is important to not go below the sand into the dirt or you will have a big mess.


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## Pumpkin (Jan 16, 2015)

Ah ok, thanks! 

Also do you guys think this table will hold the 35g well enough? I asked a few people online, most said it's fine, but a few people said it's not good enough. I'm concerned though and would like some more opinions. If not then what would you suggest? I don't have anything else to use and not sure what to look for in a stand.










*edit*: My dad used to sell and build furniture, for a long time. He thinks it will be fine, should I trust his opinion more given his practical experience?


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

A tank with a bigger footprint is better than a tall tank, but still I learned my lesson with sororities, even with the best of care, with the best of intentions, your chances of it not ending badly is like well pretty low. it's like with any animal, you can not predict it.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

I currently have 4 sorority tanks running. 1 of them for over 3 years. I have yet to have any major issues most likely because they are leftover spawns and are siblings. They get along really well and I don't get any fin nipping...like none. Everyone has experiences that are different. I keep them well fed and reduce stress by using a little salt also keep lots of plants in the tanks. I also do not have a sorority in less than 20 gallon tank.


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## Wolfstardobe (Jan 28, 2010)

I say that the table would be just fine. You can fill the tank and leave it for a week with just water and see how it goes if you are concerned.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

The table looks to be OK. As long as it's in good condition (ie legs aren't wobbly, everything nice and tight on it.) You are looking at about 350 lbs on the table when tank is full. What I would do personally...and JUST what I would do is get a nice thick (level and unwarped) piece of plywood the size of the table top and lay it on top of the table. Just an extra bit of insurance.


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