# White cloud minnow & Zebra Danio?



## mkayum

I'm thinking about purchasing a couple of ZDs to keep my lonely male white cloud minnow happy . I used to have three but the two of them died. The last one was lonely and decided to follow some of my otos. 

But I'd love to see him being with other schooling fish like ZDs. I don't want go to Petsmart which they have WCMs and it's too far. I prefer to go to Petco nearby my area. But Petco didn't carry WCMs but do carry different strain of ZDS (longfin/white/normal)

Is it possible for my lonely male cloud white minnow to get along with other ZDS? He's about a year and half and gets along with my two male dwarf gourami pretty good and 7x Kuhili loaches & inverts. My tank is 20 gallon.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!!!!!!!


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## ChoclateBetta

White cloud mountain minnows are schooling fish they can live in tropical but prefer cold water so you need at least five of the minnnows I would return some fish you do not have the room or get another tank. Plus gouramis do not like zebras they are fin nippers and too active Kuhli loaches grow around four inches.


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## DragonFyre14

I wouldn't recommend getting zebra danios. although, some people are able to keep ZD with Dwarf Gouramis. so it IS possible... however I would refrain from getting danios as they are also schooling fish and to keep them from chasing other fish you should get at least 5 of them. I would recommend waiting to get more White cloud minnows. He will be so much happier and healthier in a school. also as said they tend to prefer colder waters and from what i remember enjoy stronger currents to create a more river like environment (like what they live in in the wild.)


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## ChoclateBetta

DragonFyre14 said:


> I wouldn't recommend getting zebra danios. although, some people are able to keep ZD with Dwarf Gouramis. so it IS possible... however I would refrain from getting danios as they are also schooling fish and to keep them from chasing other fish you should get at least 5 of them. I would recommend waiting to get more White cloud minnows. He will be so much happier and healthier in a school. also as said they tend to prefer colder waters and from what i remember enjoy stronger currents to create a more river like environment (like what they live in in the wild.)


Do not forget tank is already overstocked he needs another tank for the fish s/he needs more space.


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## DragonFyre14

Oh yeah. I had missed where he said the size of his tank and had for some reason thought it was a bigger tank. Personally, in order to fix both problems, i would suggest getting another tank of at least 10 gallons. (although if you have the room the bigger the tank the better) and just move some of the fish over. you could place the white cloud minnow into the new tank (after it has cycled of course), that way you can keep the temp cooler like they prefer and also you will have room to get a school of them. also if i'm not mistaken some of your inverts could go into the new tank too.
Or you could place the two Dwarf gourami's into the new tank (although i would only recommend this if you get a 15 or 20 gallon tank.)


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## ChoclateBetta

DragonFyre14 said:


> Oh yeah. I had missed where he said the size of his tank and had for some reason thought it was a bigger tank. Personally, in order to fix both problems, i would suggest getting another tank of at least 10 gallons. (although if you have the room the bigger the tank the better) and just move some of the fish over. you could place the white cloud minnow into the new tank (after it has cycled of course), that way you can keep the temp cooler like they prefer and also you will have room to get a school of them. also if i'm not mistaken some of your inverts could go into the new tank too.
> Or you could place the two Dwarf gourami's into the new tank (although i would only recommend this if you get a 15 or 20 gallon tank.)


Isn't 7 Kuhli loaches to many for a twenty gallon too each one could grow four inches.


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## DragonFyre14

definantly. Sorry it's been a long day. apparently i'm not reading very carefully.


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## ChoclateBetta

DragonFyre14 said:


> definantly. Sorry it's been a long day. apparently i'm not reading very carefully.


For all he wants and has how big of a tank do you recommend I say 50-100 gallon.


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## Relic

ChoclateBetta said:


> Isn't 7 Kuhli loaches to many for a twenty gallon too each one could grow four inches.


No.
If it is a 20 gallon long. They can easily house 7 Kuhlii loaches, the 2 dwarf gouramis and 8 cloud minnows and only be about 3/4 stocked and that is assuming all the fish are adults. With a 20 gallon high tank they would be almost 100% stocked.

To the OP...why not just get more cloud minnows?


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## Olympia

mkayum said:


> I'm thinking about purchasing a couple of ZDs to keep my lonely male white cloud minnow happy . I used to have three but the two of them died. The last one was lonely and decided to follow some of my otos.
> 
> But I'd love to see him being with other schooling fish like ZDs. I don't want go to Petsmart which they have WCMs and it's too far. I prefer to go to Petco nearby my area. But Petco didn't carry WCMs but do carry different strain of ZDS (longfin/white/normal)
> 
> Is it possible for my lonely male cloud white minnow to get along with other ZDS? He's about a year and half and gets along with my two male dwarf gourami pretty good and 7x Kuhili loaches & inverts. My tank is 20 gallon.
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!!!!!!!


But, he would appreciate his own kind _soo _much more! They are extremely common, are you sure your nearby store can't order them from you?
If you must, you can try the danios, he may or may not school with them, out of desperation he probably will. Small fish like this feel safest in groups, and if he has no other choice he will join the danio group if they let him.


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## DragonFyre14

I think even if it were a 20 gallon long, that many fish would create a need for a lot more water changes and it still doesn't sound like there would be enough swimming room for all the fish to live happily. I would strongly suggest getting another tank (if there is room in the OP's home) otherwise just refrain from getting more fish. as much as the WCM might be lonely it's better than being even more crowded.


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## Relic

Sorry..guess I don't read well either.
I would highly suggest just making the trip and getting more WCMs...in a large{ish} school, they are so pretty to watch.


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## ChoclateBetta

Even if the inch per gallon rules true that is 28 inches Zebras like fin nipping the tank is already way over stocked I am telling you the minnows need schools 7 kuhlis in a 20 gallon is way overstocking minnow gouramis kuhlis.


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## Relic

DragonFyre14 said:


> I think even if it were a 20 gallon long, that many fish would create a need for a lot more water changes and it still doesn't sound like there would be enough swimming room for all the fish to live happily. I would strongly suggest getting another tank (if there is room in the OP's home) otherwise just refrain from getting more fish. as much as the WCM might be lonely it's better than being even more crowded.


Kuhlii loaches aren't your typical fish and the standard "rule of thumb" really doesn't apply to them. they are long but they are also very slender and spend the majority of their time at the bottom of the tank. 7 sounds like a lot...but it really isn't.


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## DragonFyre14

I agree. The minnow does need a school. it would help his health and make him sooo much happier. however there still is the problem of overstocking. As annoying as it may seem that we are fixating on that it can thoroughly harm the health of all the fish in the tank. please consider getting a new tank before getting more fish. 

As far as the Kuhli loaches go, I don't know very much about them and perhaps they are fine, but it just seems like a lot. even if they don't require much space wouldn't they be happier with more? Also wouldn't more fish cause more ammonia to be produced creating a greater need for bigger water changes?


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## Relic

ChoclateBetta said:


> Even if the inch per gallon rules true that is 28 inches Zebras like fin nipping the tank is already way over stocked I am telling you the minnows need schools 7 kuhlis in a 20 gallon is way overstocking minnow gouramis kuhlis.


*CoughwrongCough*
He could add another 2-3 kuhliis and still be in the green.
Regardless...the loaches aren't the issue. Like I said previously, I highly recommend more minnows..but if you really want the danios, you could try them. I have seen some very laid back ones and I have seen some very nippy ones..it just depends on the fish. As a matter of fact, I have had 5 danios in with a male betta for over a year and have never had a problem..on the same note, I put 8 danios in with a gold fish and they tore the gold fish's fins to shreds.


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## DragonFyre14

Some Danios tend to be worse fin nippers than others. I have heard though that if you keep them in a properly sized school that problem should pretty much disappear. However it does depend much more upon the personality of the different Danios.


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## ChoclateBetta

Relic said:


> *CoughwrongCough*
> He could add another 2-3 kuhliis and still be in the green.
> Regardless...the loaches aren't the issue. Like I said previously, I highly recommend more minnows..but if you really want the danios, you could try them. I have seen some very laid back ones and I have seen some very nippy ones..it just depends on the fish. As a matter of fact, I have had 5 danios in with a male betta for over a year and have never had a problem..on the same note, I put 8 danios in with a gold fish and they tore the gold fish's fins to shreds.


 He should separate the minnow and build the school in another tank 7 is way to many for a 20 GALLON!!!!!:evil:


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## mkayum

Olympia said:


> But, he would appreciate his own kind _soo _much more! They are extremely common, are you sure your nearby store can't order them from you?
> If you must, you can try the danios, he may or may not school with them, out of desperation he probably will. Small fish like this feel safest in groups, and if he has no other choice he will join the danio group if they let him.


I thought WCMS was common too! But petco near my area didn't carry them. BUT I thought it'd be nice if my male WCM joins with other different schooling fish. You know it's interesting to see how they adapt. I'm not sure if it's good time for Petco to special order for me. But I would try. It'd be my first time..? How do I ask them to order for me? Will they get the right fish? :O 

So this little boy, He tried to fit in with my two bait red rosy and gray minnows. (They are about 3 to 4 years old. ) They did and he followed them whatever they go. 

But I feel that those couple of older minnows would be happier to be in their own tank. I decided to remove them and moved them to their very own ten gallon tank. They look happier in there.


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## ChoclateBetta

mkayum said:


> I thought WCMS was common too! But petco near my area didn't carry them. BUT I thought it'd be nice if my male WCM joins with other different schooling fish. You know it's interesting to see how they adapt. I'm not sure if it's good time for Petco to special order for me. But I would try. It'd be my first time..? How do I ask them to order for me? Will they get the right fish? :O
> 
> So this little boy, He tried to fit in with my two bait red rosy and gray minnows. (They are about 3 to 4 years old. ) They did and he followed them whatever they go.
> 
> But I feel that those couple of older minnows would be happier to be in their own tank. I decided to remove them and moved them to their very own ten gallon tank. They look happier in there.


 Good for you they are more colorful and active in cold water.


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## Olympia

mkayum said:


> I thought WCMS was common too! But petco near my area didn't carry them. BUT I thought it'd be nice if my male WCM joins with other different schooling fish. You know it's interesting to see how they adapt. I'm not sure if it's good time for Petco to special order for me. But I would try. It'd be my first time..? How do I ask them to order for me? Will they get the right fish? :O
> 
> So this little boy, He tried to fit in with my two bait red rosy and gray minnows. (They are about 3 to 4 years old. ) They did and he followed them whatever they go.
> 
> But I feel that those couple of older minnows would be happier to be in their own tank. I decided to remove them and moved them to their very own ten gallon tank. They look happier in there.


Just ask if they can get any of the minnows in for you and when, simple as that. 
Why not just put the minnow in with your rosy reds and get your danios for the 20 gallon?


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## Relic

DragonFyre14 said:


> I agree. The minnow does need a school. it would help his health and make him sooo much happier. however there still is the problem of overstocking. As annoying as it may seem that we are fixating on that it can thoroughly harm the health of all the fish in the tank. please consider getting a new tank before getting more fish.
> 
> As far as the Kuhli loaches go, I don't know very much about them and perhaps they are fine, but it just seems like a lot. even if they don't require much space wouldn't they be happier with more? Also wouldn't more fish cause more ammonia to be produced creating a greater need for bigger water changes?


I understand your concern..I really do. But I assure you, his tank is NOT over stocked. I just plugged all the info{20 gallon tank stocked with 7x kuhlii loaches,2x dwarf gouramis,8x cloud minnows..and he said inverts so I put in 12x ghost shrimp} into AQ advisor and this is what it came up with.

Recommended temperature range: 75.2 - 77 F. [Display in Celsius]
Recommended pH range: 6 - 8.
Recommended hardness range: 5 - 15 dH.
Recommended water change schedule: 32% per week.
Your aquarium stocking level is 79%. 
So I wasn't far off when I said 3/4 stocked. and 32% water changes weekly is nothing...this should be done regardless of stocking level. I also didn't know if he had filtration so I left that out when I plugged in the info.


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## Relic

ChoclateBetta said:


> 7 is way to many for a 20 GALLON!!!!!:evil:


Believe what you want. My experience tells me other wise.


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## DragonFyre14

I guess I was wrong.  Anyway thanks for being nice about it. Oh and hey could you post a link to that AQ advisor thing you used? I would really appreciate it.


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## ChoclateBetta

Relic said:


> Believe what you want. My experience tells me other wise.


Maybe with massive water changes I admit I have trouble letting go I do weekly 25-50 percent water changes in the twenty gallon it might be okay if the school has enough room to swim how long by how wide is the tank.


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## Relic

DragonFyre14 said:


> I guess I was wrong.  Anyway thanks for being nice about it. Oh and hey could you post a link to that AQ advisor thing you used? I would really appreciate it.


No problem. Keep in mind that AQadvisor is not 100% fool proof and it is still best to do species specific research before purchasing fish. But it is a very helpful site that makes for a good starting point with any tank set-up.
http://aqadvisor.com/


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## mkayum

DragonFyre14 said:


> I agree. The minnow does need a school. it would help his health and make him sooo much happier. however there still is the problem of overstocking. As annoying as it may seem that we are fixating on that it can thoroughly harm the health of all the fish in the tank. please consider getting a new tank before getting more fish.
> 
> As far as the Kuhli loaches go, I don't know very much about them and perhaps they are fine, but it just seems like a lot. even if they don't require much space wouldn't they be happier with more? Also wouldn't more fish cause more ammonia to be produced creating a greater need for bigger water changes?


I do water change about two times a week plus weekend and.. it's planted. The plants are Java ferns & a java moss vine and moneyworts, an anubias. I think there's some Anacharis in there too. Oh and a few of Water Wisteria. The white sand is center of the tank and the gravel are around the sand. It's for Kuhili loaches and they look happier.  


FOR your information, it's been established for like a month and half ago and I do water change every Saturday and Wednesday to keep the water in check.


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## Olympia

Alright guys, the wonderful thing about stocking is that it is _subjective_. That means, everyone can think something different, and (minus extreme cases) no one can be completely right about everything. 

I do not think this tank is overstocked, even with the addition of danios and the one minnow. It is a well balanced tank- loaches on the bottom, gourami and the other fish on top.
I am a "heavy stocker" by all your reasoning- I have 24 small fish in a 20 gallon right now. I never have problems with the tank being dirty, or having bad parameters, and everyone has plenty of wiggle room and gets along great.


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## DragonFyre14

Okay. I apologize for jumping on you about being overstocked. As much as some people (sometimes including me) fixate on 'overstocked' tanks, the thing is as long as the fish have swimming room, and enough water changes are being done everything should be fine (I don't have experience with a planted tank but from what i've heard it should help a lot as far as nitrites and nitrates go.)


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## Relic

ChoclateBetta said:


> Maybe with massive water changes I admit I have trouble letting go I do weekly 25-50 percent water changes in the twenty gallon it might be okay if the school has enough room to swim how long by how wide is the tank.


You really don't even need MASSIVE water changes. Typical, weekly water changes will do{ I highly recommend at least 50% regardless of stock level} It is also a good practice to test your water parameters frequently with a good test kit or at the very least some API 5 in 1 strips, and do water changes when need be...usually you can get away with one change per week but I find I need to do smaller changes throughout the week every now and again.


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## ChoclateBetta

Olympia said:


> Alright guys, the wonderful thing about stocking is that it is _subjective_. That means, everyone can think something different, and (minus extreme cases) no one can be completely right about everything.
> 
> I do not think this tank is overstocked, even with the addition of danios and the one minnow. It is a well balanced tank- loaches on the bottom, gourami and the other fish on top.
> I am a "heavy stocker" by all your reasoning- I have 24 small fish in a 20 gallon right now. I never have problems with the tank being dirty, or having bad parameters, and everyone has plenty of wiggle room and gets along great.


I just consider bottom schoolers needing a lot of room.


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## Relic

mkayum said:


> I do water change about two times a week plus weekend and.. it's planted. The plants are Java ferns & a java moss vine and moneyworts, an anubias. I think there's some Anacharis in there too. Oh and a few of Water Wisteria. The white sand is center of the tank and the gravel are around the sand. It's for Kuhili loaches and they look happier.
> 
> 
> FOR your information, it's been established for like a month and half ago and I do water change every Saturday and Wednesday to keep the water in check.


It sounds like a wonderful tank. Keep us updated on which fish you decide to go with. I might also suggest Harlequin rasboras :-D They're my new favorite schooling fish.:lol:


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## mkayum

Fish & invents I currently have in 20 gallon...


7x kuhili loaches
2x Dwarf Gourami
6x ghost shrimps
2x nerite snails
2x apple snails
1x white cloud minnow
2 x otos



Hope to make it clear to understand.  thanks!


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## ChoclateBetta

mkayum said:


> Fish & invents I currently have in 20 gallon...
> 
> 
> 7x kuhili loaches
> 2x Dwarf Gourami
> 6x ghost shrimps
> 2x nerite snails
> 2x apple snails
> 1x white cloud minnow
> 2 x otos
> 
> 
> 
> Hope to make it clear to understand.  thanks!


 I think adding the apple snails too the cold water is. Good idea read they live longer in it.


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## mkayum

I forgot about the bamboo shrimp!


7x kuhili loaches
2x Dwarf Gourami
6x ghost shrimps
2x nerite snails
2x apple snails
1x white cloud minnow
1x bamboo shrimp


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## Olympia

I'd try for more minnows. Why don't you want to add him to the tank with the other minnows?
I think the danios should be fine, though.


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## mkayum

Olympia said:


> I'd try for more minnows. Why don't you want to add him to the tank with the other minnows?
> I think the danios should be fine, though.


I bought four more white cloud minnow and a couple of zebra danios and they are shoaling around the tank. Oh and this male whitecloud minnow look so much happier! Thank for the help!  

I begged my friend to go with me to Petsmart... I had to get some friends for my lonely male minnow. I feel bad for him, of course lol.


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## Olympia

No problem! Glad the minnow got some buds!


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## Gizmothefreaky

I don't want to butt in... But I do at the same time... Kuhlis have a VERY LOW bioload... They are equal to about a fish a third their size in bioload. That tank its nowhere near over stocked... Just thought I would put my two cents in. Please do go on.


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## Olympia

Haha, no worries Giz, was thinking the same thing.  Plus I don't think they are big on "zooming" around tank either.


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## Gizmothefreaky

Lol yeah.. I mean, if you want an overstocked tank come look at mine... XD I have way too many fish in there and I know it. But it is only temporary. Lolz


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