# Inbreeding?



## dman (Feb 8, 2010)

Is it safe to breed to sibling bettas together? I always wondered why diagrams or inbreeding examples are always, the offspring to the father or offspring to the mother.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

It's 100% safe as long as you outcross after five or six generations.


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## dman (Feb 8, 2010)

Thank you for the info


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Mr. V - By outcross you mean breeding to a un-related fish? Sorry, I'm a total n00b. lol


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## Megalechis (Apr 23, 2012)

Many breeders actually sell a brother and sister together for you to carry on the traits! So long as it's not excessive (ie. Only planning on breeding siblings forever.) it's usually fine.

There are some breeders who merely don't like such a close relationship, as we're taught as we grow up that incest is morally wrong. (In fact, the entire genetics unit my Biology teacher would sigh whenever we were forced to do a Punnett Square for related individuals.) However, it's one of the best ways to carry on desired traits into the next generation, and most breeds and desired variations of dosmeticated animal are brought in by some variation of breeding with siblings and parents.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes that is what Mr Vampire means. What "inbreeding" is, is line breeding to create the color, finnage or look you want if the fry and their parent have it. You'll need to introduce new blood to the line, to avoid deformities


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Brother-sister crosses often wash out traits. What you want is a brother-sister pair, then take their offspring, and breed back to them. Then again with the third generation. Now you have two lines to use for outcrosses to last a bit longer.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

dman said:


> Is it safe to breed to sibling bettas together? I always wondered why diagrams or inbreeding examples are always, the offspring to the father or offspring to the mother.


Safe? Well no. It is never "safe" to breed siblings together. Why? because it amplifies the possibility of bad traits coming out. It also amplifies the good traits as well, so it makes breeding for a trait easier. Therefore you have a much better chance to breed for what you are looking for. It's why breeders often inbreed.

It was inbreeding in the early half moon lines that led many lines to fail due to sterility. There are many lines now to choose from thankfully...

Best of luck,
Jeff.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

We plan to breed our male HM to another unrelated female HM, and then cross back the offspring to the original male and his spawn sister and then continue with sibling spawns. I have no idea how many times my male's lines have been inbred, so we'll do this way to be safe. Introduce new blood right from the first spawn. But we have a sibling female as a backup. From what I've learned, it's perfectly fine as long as it's not done for too many generations


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## vilmarisv (Apr 17, 2010)

That's a good plan Pitluvs. Saves you from dealing with unexpected deformities. 
The spawn I'm working on is very similar. The pair has a few generations in between that have been outcrossed. I plan to either redo the spawn and breed to dad or breed one of the juvies I have growing with dad. 
I have 2 that I think are going to be melanos so hopefully one will be a female and I'll be able to breed back to dad who is a multi with melano geno and get 50% melanos! Dreaming here


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## dman (Feb 8, 2010)

I read female melanos arent fertile? but how do you distinguish them from the geno type of the spawn? they're black? I kinda got confused because I've seen a lot of female melanos for auction but they werent black, they were pinkish, or colorless with a few patches of black. So are these geno types?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Melanos have to be crossed to steel or royal blue (someone correct me on which). Meaning you have to cross a melano male to a steel or royal carrier female. 

Anything that isn't a steel or royal blue melano geno is probably a scam.

For blacks I recommend leaving melanos and working on the more stable marble based blacks.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

That's what I'm doing MrV! The only "problem" is that I get marbles I want to keep!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

tpocicat said:


> That's what I'm doing MrV! The only "problem" is that I get marbles I want to keep!


I breed for solid colors.... then marbles pop up and I decide to spawn all my marbles lol. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Well, in my experience there are many different kinds of blacks- lace, melano, orchid, superblack, copper black. It all depends on how you breed them.

Orchid is, IMHO, not really a black "black," but a bi-color. It's a black betta with heavy, HEAVY blue iridescence often in a butterfly patten on the fins. It's usually the result of a marble cross. (MrV, I think this is what you're describing.) Seen here:










Lace is basically an orchid with clear edging on the dorsal, anal & caudal. They usually have a lot of blue iridescence as well. Seen here:









Melano is the attempt at a PURE black betta with zero irridescence. Breeders have tried to inbreed the mutation that spreads the melanin across all the body and fins- sort of an "extended" black. The inbreeding was so frequent that eventually melano females became infertile. The eggs are frail and rupture. There is usually zero iridescence on the fins of a true melano.
Seen here:










Copper black is just that- a cross between a melano and a copper. There is generally a lot of copper iridescence on the fish, giving it this appearance-










Superblack, which is one of my current lines, is the attempt at getting the betta as dark-black as possible with minimal iridescence, while keeping the females fertile. This requires an outcross to an unrelated steel blue female every few generations. You can still sometimes see minimal iridescence on the branching of a superblack, but it is greatly reduced from that of an orchid. Seen here:


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

MrV, I know, you never know what you will get, and as long as they are good, why not?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Kaden that's some good info you gave there


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

=) Glad I could help. Blacks were the #1 most confusing thing to me when I was starting out. So, I focussed on learning as much about them as I could.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Any bettas I have that are black, my fighter is most black (with the wild type colors), two females black with blue :lol: but that's about it


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Super black is copper based  They're excellent for starting with blacks. I wish I had gotten a spawn from my pair :/


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

:blueyay: My SB line is steel blue based. I'm excited about this line. Trade me a white for a black? xD

Hopefully at some point I'll be doing black copper butterflies (white bf?). I know I want to do something with copper but it changes every day. :roll:


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol:

How hard is breeding whites? I've never seen one here. Jekyll was more salmon with a white wash look xD and silver blue here and there :roll:


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

I believe for specific traits it is best to pick a brother sister pair that balance each other out finnage or colourwise, breed them, pick a daughter that will again balance the fathers finnage out, then pick a son from that and breed the son back to the mother of the second spawn, in a family tree I think it would look something like this


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

=) Always been for form first. Who was it that said, "build the house THEN paint the house"? I think it was coined by MrV.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I said it but I got it from Sherolyn (Basmentbettas) lol.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

That's a beautiful tree up there! Love the saying, build the house than paint it. Makes perfect sense!!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

hahaha nice guys  that's a good tree... I know I'd love to breed my fighter, but I'm being picky.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Picky is good.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

haha yeah. We lack female choice here so I want to find a breeder/importer in canada... :/


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

What about the breeder you just got your new fish from? Doesn't she have a sister to the fighter?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Nope! They usually get snatched up :lol: he was an import. She says it is pretty hard to find a female betta other that VT, x.x I got a VT from her actually lol. I may go check my females agai- actually the log book I have and see who is what. a plakat or combtail is the closest I'd get :roll:


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Picky is good, if we weren't picky, there wouldn't be so many types of bettas!!!


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Hmm. Well, if you hang tight for a few months I'm sure I can ship some HMPK females your way. Or regular HM females.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

BeckyFish97 said:


> Picky is good, if we weren't picky, there wouldn't be so many types of bettas!!!


Amen to that, sista!


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

kadenjames said:


> amen to that, sista!


major lol moment


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: oh you guys are too funny.

My question is...transhipping and shipping prices x.x it's 45.00 from the one I got my fish from, 60.00 for winter... every time I see a betta in usa or whatever it's usually really pricey (geesh canada sucks xD)


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Ooh, yowza. I've never really been clear on it- shipping from USA to Canada, do you need to send through customs and a transhipper and all that jazz? Or can I just slap a label on the box that says "TO: Canada"?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: I think you do need transhipper... or so I was told. if not then DAAAANG I shoulda gotten that purty giant a while back ;( :lol:


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Maybe I can just slingshot the bettas your way. Sure would be cheaper. -_- I'm having a bunch of shipping supplies sent to my house today, including customs paperwork and international express boxes. I'll have to double check on the prices.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

That would certainly be a new way for illegal immigrants to get into a country...*Steps into slingshot, stretches slingshot backwards...PING...WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE* probably fun too


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I was watching this show called "Immigrant," (something like that,) it showed the newest ways illegals are trying to get in. Believe it or not, THAT is one of the methods they showed. xD xD xD


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: :lol: :lol: hope someone was on the other side to catch them :roll:

Okay so, a purply/steely/silvery/black gal I pulled out she has shorter fins than that of my VT's, but rounder than my combtails, or plakats  -so hard to explain- she'd be one I wouldn't mind because of her colors -.- most of my gals are blue, blue, blue, red, red with blue.. :lol:


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Sena, there is a breeder in Nova Scotia that I get my Bettas from. It's coming up on a good time of year to send, they are usually $10 each. I'm lucky enough to be closer so it's only $19 for shipping and I get them in 5h lol But yeah, Google Crazy4Bettas.

Shipping from USA to Canada isn't doable, I haven't seen someone used a transshipper yet.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

hmmm okay thanks pitluvs =D I'd love to find a better match than a "god knows what" tail female and my fighter :lol:


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Sena, what's your zip-code up there? I'm trying to see how much it would cost.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

t4v 3g6. I'd like to get bettas during spring/summer - SO much cheaper xD


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Kaden, even Linda has had issues shipping to Canada. It's very difficult.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

yikes. well I have troubles enough HERE with lame ol' canada post which has done SO many people wrong. My HM finally came around and is colored up :roll: water was friggin cold (between 62-65 degrees) when i got them


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Sena, Heather (crazy4bettas) specializes in blue dragons but she has spawns now and then that are nothing but pure fun breedings and pet quality (or beginner breeder). Everything she has is HM, unless otherwise stated  So yeah, you'd totally know what you're getting from her. She does ship, so you can always email her and work something out if you're really serious!

OR you can wait, and I can send you some of my offspring, just pay shipping


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Mmmm, that's nerve racking. She's been in the trade a while, too.

Well it looks like an express ship from me to you is around $60, and priority is 6-10 days for $13. 

Someday I'll figure out the best way.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

KadenJames said:


> Mmmm, that's nerve racking. She's been in the trade a while, too.
> 
> Well it looks like an express ship from me to you is around $60, and priority is 6-10 days for $13.
> 
> Someday I'll figure out the best way.


Put them in a lake with a map to sena? PPPP


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

LOL 

*dumps bettas into water* Swim! Swim for your life! Find Sena! Swim!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: :lol:

Oh my god... LOL...


PITLUVS, perhaps I'll take ya on your offer ;-)


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Hmmmm, why haven't these ideas been thought of before? PPPP


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

hahaha... which ones? lookin' for someone to ship or slingshotting/making bettas swim? xD


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Or we could pull a willy-wonka and send them through the TV. xD 

Oh, but that would make them teeny tiny. ._.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

... create a super large (30 foot) betta and send it. It'll turn out to be about right.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

breed giant to giant for a couple of generations create a supergiant and then send it through the tv LOL
how about by tube, attatch a tube to the side of your fishtank, attatch the other end to the tank of the person revieving them, let flowing water in and the fish will end up in the buyer's tank!!!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: you guys are so weird


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Heck yes! But, uh, how would I get the tube to Canada? Unless I tied to to a horse and slapped it's bum. =)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

ooo you're sending me a horse too? :lol:

on the talk of shipping and all, the canada post idiots said "shipping fish is illegal." I wonder if they think bettas walked to the usa/canada border, and were stopped. One betta says to the other "you said we didn't need passports!" :roll: and nowhere does it actually say it is illegal xD some need permits to own and breed endangered fish though


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Yes, a halfmoon plakat horse. xD xD 

Those senseless morons were just trying to defend their own mistakes, making things up as they went along. Typical.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

yep. I told them to have my fish to me THAT day (day late shipping) or else and they literally hunted it down within half an hour, found it, brought it. :| I wasn't going to take "the next day it comes in" bull from them. I'd rather FED EX then them now. I won't ship anything important or live through them... my friend didn't get her scholarship because of them.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

LOL it always has to be someone elses fault!!!
You could send the fish on one of those awesome ski elavator things


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: hot air balloon. >.>

wow we're so off track now haha so to carry it half back...

if I bred him to anything other than plakat, (maybe not VT as much as possible) bred a female fry to the father, I could get the traits I want? hopefully.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL LOVE IT!!!and yes, not sure how we got to here!!!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Another question... which is more dominant? I know VT dominates everything, but I have an HM male, delta male, crowntail male, and the fighter. If I have plakat girls, and combtails (exclude the VT) what would take over? :/ THAT I never learned


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Would someone just tell Sena to head for the boarder, have Bettas shipped to a close address and then take them back to Alberta with her?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

bahaha NY here I come? :roll:

"excuse me, what is your purpose in USA?"
"To get betta fish."
".... Okay and how long do you intend to stay?"
"About five minutes - see, there's my buddy now with my fish!"


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Lol
OMG WETTING MYSELF!!!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol:


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## dman (Feb 8, 2010)

KadenJames said:


> Well, in my experience there are many different kinds of blacks- lace, melano, orchid, superblack, copper black. It all depends on how you breed them.
> 
> Orchid is, IMHO, not really a black "black," but a bi-color. It's a black betta with heavy, HEAVY blue iridescence often in a butterfly patten on the fins. It's usually the result of a marble cross. (MrV, I think this is what you're describing.) Seen here:
> 
> ...


Thank you for clearing that up for me


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> :lol: oh you guys are too funny.
> 
> My question is...transhipping and shipping prices x.x it's 45.00 from the one I got my fish from, 60.00 for winter... every time I see a betta in usa or whatever it's usually really pricey (geesh canada sucks xD)


High prices are a good thing. For one you can get better prices for your USA fish. For another when someone pays $50.00 + for a fish they probably won't stick him in a small cup of water and neglect him like a garden variety betta..... Which is why all breeders should use the best stock they can get their hands on....


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I got decent stock. Not fancy awesome stock, but pretty decent. Although that CT is making me concerned with his short caudal... http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=100168 as seen there. He may just be young - hopefully. But I've never seen an adult with a short CT tail o_o if it stays that way I'd rather not breed him at all.


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