# Thoughts on this pair



## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

What are your guys thoughts on this pair? They are both from LogisticGuy's latest spawn. Sorry for sideways pic


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Oh nvm. Pic is upright


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

The female is good, banana's colors are good and fins are ok. That being said, I have warned you on the other thread about the risks in spawning Banana. Personally I wouldn't do it, but I can't exactly stop you from doing it.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

I know. Just for the pair itself. Saying they both have no health problems. Like I had said if this does seem the he had sbd I won't be breeding him. But for now I'm just looking on opinions of the pair having that they are both healthy disease free fish


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

What are your goals.

I can't see the male - try using a dark background. Thus far I see he has split ventrelas - not good. his top line could be better. Your female has better body form.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

It looks like neither of these have a full 180 spread. I assume they are meant to be halfmoons. Because of that alone I would say no. I am not a fan of the male at all, things have been pointed out, split ventral's are bad so he's not breeding worthy. The female is okay but I am not that keen on her either.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

They both have full 180 spread. And what is wrong with the split ventrals? I'm new to grading bettas and what traits are desirable.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I can tell you your boy does not have a full 180 spread unless he isn't fully flared out in that picture. Split ventral's are bad because it's a deformity, those fish couldn't be shown and if many offspring got the same thing any serious buyer wouldn't want it because they can't be breed. More than likey you would end up with a lot of fish you would have to give away to walmart, petco, or petsmart for free.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok I've never heard about split ventrals being an issue. I will post pics of him in full flare and spread.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

The ventrals are not perfect. Ventral defects may include: uneven length, a ventral that curls or that is bent, or even lack of ventrals altogether. It is quite common for bettas to not have perfect ventrals, especially as they mature and the ventrals grow longer. I wouldn’t worry about such defects, because they are not genetically transmissible. Meaning that even if your betta has no ventrals at all (which would be your worst case scenario), it will produce normal bettas with ventrals. Many have attempted to start a strain of bettas that would have no ventrals, breeding selectively bettas with such trait, but couldn’t produce offspring of the likes. So as you see, ventrals defects are harmless.

Found this on the web.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Still no breeder will buy something with split ventrals simply because if it is genetic then you can destroy a perfectly great show quality bloodline. I personally know several breeders who cull anything with deformed ventrals such as split or missing, even having one longer than the other they cull them.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

More pics


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

But if it says ventral defects are harmless, the. If I bred this fish then culled those fry with defects I would be fine? As the ventral defects wouldn't be genetic? Please correct me if I am wrong. As I said I am inexperienced in grading bettas


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Ventral defects are harmless if you never intend to show them or sell them to serious breeders and just keep them for pets. They will not kill the fish but they can not be shown nor will people who breed show quality buy them or anyone who wants to breed even breeding quality. That is where the drawback is you see, you slim down the number of people who will want the fish and are knowledgeable about betta. As I said many breeders I know cull fish such as that, if you have offspring with such deformities I would honestly cull them as well.

Also I read from another breeder that your male might have sbd. Now that is seriously bad and it seems other siblings have the same so to me that seems genetic. And breeding back to his sister only increases the number of fry that will have it and have to be culled, if you are unlucky you will have to cull the whole spawn. I have seen this happen as well.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok. I haven't seen the boy act this way anymore. It was only during the hour he was in his jar after I picked him up. After that he hasn't been doing it. And the female and also another male I've gotten haven't done this at all. I will do further inspection though.

And for the ventrals. What exactly does it mean to be split? For it to have that webbed appearance? And are good ventrals then just like one full straight fin forming into one point on the bottom?


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

Split ventrals means there are one or more points at the end of the ventrals, the fins resting under the body. Ideally you want only one point and for the ventrals to go straight down and be even with each other. I can throw up an extream version of split ventrals for you from a breeder I know in Canada and then normal ventrals to help you spot the difference.

Image
Case of serious splitting which though he is a great male the breeder will never breed him.









normal ventrals.

First one I linked since the photo is too big.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok I understand better now. Thank you. Now banana is still young, is it possible that the ventrals grow to be more desirable or for the most part will they stay with the two points?


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

If the split isn't damage and in fact the way they have always been then they won't grow together unfortunately. The fish above is a year old not and his only worsened with age in fact which we think is odd.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Okay fish is only about 3 months old. So the ventral split would be genetic correct? Also, I have another boy from the same batch. Similar to this one but completely cello, less matured but he appears to have pointed desired ventrals. Would it be better to wait for him mature to breed opposed to this one.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

At about 3 months they are breed ready. Get a pic of the other boy, if they are from the same spawn you should still get some marbles as both male and female would have come from a spawn with one marble parent and I find marble is harder to breed out than in >.<


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok the boy is not nearly as matured. He was thought to be female when I first got him as he was still in the sorority with all the females. But his anal fins passes his caudal right now and he has a large beard when flaring. I'm getting him into my 10 gal tonight so all I have is pics from his jar. I will put one up though.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

The best I currently have of him.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry for the side ways picture


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

It depends on your goal.. split ventrals may not be ideal if you are showing, or planning to sell to breeders.. but to the average person it's not a big deal.

What I'm more curious about is his feathering in his tail fin (which looks to be pretty close, if not 180 in those last pictures) - has he been in with a female that took off most of his fins, or is it feathered like that normally? 

If it's feathered like that normally then that is what you should be concerned about more than the ventrals.. the ventrals are nothing compared to feather/rose tails. Breeding feather/rose tails you are going to guarantee most of the spawn will need to be culled as it produces deformed fins, scales, body in most of the fry. It's a mutated gene that brings out a lot of trouble in offspring. 

If you have something really dark to place behind the tank, and take a side view picture of him, can see it better. Has to be a dark, solid color.. otherwise you won't get an accurate assessment. 

As mentioned before, he does have a spooned topline. 

As for the female - it's not that easy to find an HM female that is a full 180 spread without spending a pretty penny.. so that isn't as big of a deal - in a normal HMxHM spawn you will get a good number of deltas. It's just with a full 180 female the HMs have a better chance at being better looking, tail wise. 

Now.. are they PKs? He has rather short fins.. but not shaped like a PK (and if he is long finned, how old is he? As he doesn't seem fully developed. And the female looks PK judging by her anal fin, which is rather short compared to a long finned HM. 

As for what you will get color wise.. it's a toss up. Kind of all over the place with those two.. 

I suggest if he proves not to be a rose/feather tail (need that black background side view pic) then I would look for a female that would compliment him more - can work out the split ventrals eventually down the line.. but look for a marbled girl similar to him, or a solid black or white even.. but that is just my personal preference.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Mahsfish said:


> The best I currently have of him.


Dark, solid background to see the fins better - if I'm right about the feathering, then he isn't breedable. And is that even the same fish? How did he lose his dragon scaling and colors??


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

No he is not a rose tail. Earlier his fins were normal. They are still healing and growing. They are both only 3 months and straight HMs.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

No. The other fish in the jar is his bother who is not as matured yet. The one with dragon scaling is the original fish the other is the brother.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Banana is a slight rosetail and both carry the gene. Not that serious though. His other faults (top line, sbd, pectoral, ventrals) are bad.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

They probably won't spawn show quality fish and if you want to work out a certain type of betta line it may take several generations and probably years. But if you just want breeding experience then do it no matter what... You can cull the bad and breed the best for your F2...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Your goal is important as it will determine what we will advise. If you are going for show quality, then I'd say don't breed them. Otherwise, it's up to you.

Split ventrals IMO is not a deformity - it doesn't influence life quality of fish. But it is genetic and will be passed on to offspring. Missing ventrals is not genetic and thus is hard to breed for. Ideal ventrals are wide at the base and ends at one point . . . sort of blade like shape.

Young bettas that show undesired traits will not "grow out" of it. In fact such traits gets worse as the betta ages. If you have a young betta with very long ventrals, it will grow much longer as it ages. The same goes for split ventrals - each split will grow longer as it ages.

Though the brother doesn't have split ventrals, he most probably carries the genes and thus will produce similar fry when bred to a sibling female. If you don't have any other males and can't invest in one, I'd say breed him to a non related female with rather short but wide ventrals - a more pointed edge caudal will also be good.

Not sure about the rose/feather - I don't see it because picture isn't clear. But he does have 180* spread. Be prepared for a few generations to produce better offspring.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah I'm hoping to just breed and go from there since I've invested in theses fish. Can I breed them and then take the fry and cull the bad ones and get a couple good quality bettas to breed from the batch

I'm not breeding for show but at the same time I want to get fish that are nice looking that I will be able to sell. Nothing for high show quality.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

Just breed for the experience... But if you don't know, you will rarely make back in a spawn what you pay for... Especially in the beginnings of breeding...


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah I know. I haven't got much experience yet. Only 2 unsuccessful spawns


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Are there any other males from CJ that you are interested in? You could trade.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

I haven had a look at to many of his other males. I will just wait for the other male to mature.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

The resident experts on my fish... are not.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the pics LG. In going to start by breeding banana for experience. And depending on the results I will go from there. If lots of defects and undesired traits I will cull most of them and try the other male. Or breed fry out to the male.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Mahsfish said:


> Thanks for the pics LG. In going to start by breeding banana for experience. And depending on the results I will go from there. If lots of defects and undesired traits I will cull most of them and try the other male. Or breed fry out to the male.


 
Good idea. I think you will get lots of cool looking marble fry. Very few deformaties. I culled zero for obvious deformaties in my spawn. Many will be very good, some average, some meh. Much like all spawns.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)




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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Banana is a slight rosetail and both carry the gene. Not that serious though. His other faults (top line, sbd, pectoral, ventrals) are bad.


 
What are you talking about? he has no sbd for the 2nd time. Not related to my feathertail Archie. Not perfect for sure but get a grip man. He will most likely get a lot of fish much like the ones in my spawn. Is that really so bad? For a fellow with zero spawns under his belt you sure think highly of your own opinions.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

I think the fish are very cute. && should be spawned.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Jayloo said:


> I think the fish are very cute. && should be spawned.


Matt say no even though he plans to breed Bananas brother himself. :shock:


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

logisticsguy said:


> What are you talking about? he has no sbd for the 2nd time. Not related to my feathertail Archie. Not perfect for sure but get a grip man. He will most likely get a lot of fish much like the ones in my spawn. Is that really so bad? For a fellow with zero spawns under his belt you sure think highly of your own opinions.


LOL. 
Also. Matt, can you explain what's wrong with his pectorals?


Anyways. About the fish. He's OK but not breeding quality IMO
-ventrals, he does have split ventrals, yes. But that's not what I'm worrying about. His ventrals should ideally be more wider and "fuller"

Topline - his topline is a bit bumpy, notice near his head

Branching - I do not like his excessive branching. 

Anal - he has stair stepping on his anal, and the first few rays should be longer. The last ones are longer than the front ones

Dorsal - he has stair stepping on his dorsal and his dorsal should be wider


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The feathering is quite bad actually.

If you really want to breed them, then go for it. Just understand you will have to cull a great many due to deformity, and if you breed the offspring you are just carrying it on down the line.. split ventrals are a visual thing. The feathering will cause scale and body deformities. Normally these fish tend to be culled by the breeder, very few get out - you see them around, but you don't see as many as there are because they are culled, and that is for a reason. 

Again, do as you wish, just understand what you are doing by breeding him is all.
Good luck!


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

I understand that I may have maybe a dozen fish with some undersireable fish. And I may have to cull a bunch of fish to rid the deformed ones. But think of it as this batch is just to get experience for the future now. I think it would be better for me to start like this cause even if the fry are deformed and many become culls I will end up with less fish to raise and start getting prepared for my next. 

Also by person when I look at his fins if doesn't look like he has any feathering at all. As the rays don't look as if they have excessive branching. The fins were normal before, I'm sure they will grow out from this. I'm almost 99% positive he is not a rosetail. I've kept a rosetail before and his fins were much fuller and I know what they would look like.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

Breed the original pair and see if you get babies. Then see if you successfully raise the babies. It is VERY hard. The decision to cull or not to cull may not be an issue because it is hard to get fry to maturity. If you are a beginner then you need a couple spawns under your belt so that when you spend 100$ on a pair you have a better understanding of what you want out of the line and a higher chance of raising those young with success. Just my opinion.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Jayloo said:


> Breed the original pair and see if you get babies. Then see if you successfully raise the babies. It is VERY hard. The decision to cull or not to cull may not be an issue because it is hard to get fry to maturity. If you are a beginner then you need a couple spawns under your belt so that when you spend 100$ on a pair you have a better understanding of what you want out of the line and a higher chance of raising those young with success. Just my opinion.


I agree. I'd like to get some experience aswell. Plus I'm only in highschool so I don't have $100+ to spend on a pair yet and pay shipping. Plus my parents pay for the bills so any $$ I make should be able to pay for the cost of this pair and even some back.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Good luck though - it is a learning experience. But not all new breeders have trouble - my first spawn? Over 500 fry and only 4 deaths and that was because I wasn't gently enough, or they got sucked up and hit the bucket too hard. Found only 1 dead body in the whole bunch.. so it's possible to raise your first spawn and hardly lose any  Just need patience and make sure you know what to expect/do.

Keep us updated!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@Myates; 500+ from one spawn? Wow, you learn fast. LOL In my years of breeding, I have never had 500+ survive to adult. . . . Great job, keep it up.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks  Only 5 deaths so far.. found 2 bodies, and I accidentally killed the other 3  and yeah.. I transferred them over to 2 30g tanks and I counted them as I went.. I stopped at 500 though, best rough estimate is 530-550. 

But going to do a heavy cull tomorrow, bring the numbers down to about 200.. then cull again after they develop more. They are 40 days old now.. but aren't as big as I would like them to be.. just on the small side of "average". Have a bunch of runts in there as well.. sigh.

There is such a thing as too many fry


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

What do you do with your culls Myates?


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

I will either give them to a store for cheap or sell to non breeders if defects are minimal (different lenght and splint ventricals, or fins aren't symmetrical) if defect are more severe like sbd or deformities in scales and body then I will most likely be able to detect this early and they can be flushed or feeders for my cons if small enough.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Oh sorry Jayloo thought you were talking to me.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

No worries. Your input is valued as well.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Myates do you have a thread on them. If so what's it called Ill check it out.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Oh. It's the it's a surprise one correct? Looks like and integrating mix


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes, this is the thread.. 

Major first culling today.. sadness.. after I do my mom's taxes have to get down to business. I have Clove oil, and antacid tablets for the culling.. mixed together will do the job. The Clove oil alone will be fine.. but I like to make sure, which is what the antacid tablets are for. Since I'm going for the runts for the most part, and possibly the medium sized ones I'm going to be using a siphon - one finger on the outflow part.. locate the one being culled and will release the suction each time to siphon out the ones I want into a bucket.. then pour them into my culling only cup.. then they will go out into the garden.

Yep, they will be a surprise for the most part.. starting work on EE lines and an AOC cambo show line. Can't wait for those.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

PLEASE DO NOT FLUSH YOUR FISH! It can introduce non native diseases, is illegal, and can cause a bunch of other problems- look into it.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok. But I don't see how this cause non native disease. If you already used chemicals and bleach while cleaning your toilet how are the fish going to me more harmless. And the water would got to a facility and not straight to a river or large water body.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

They will become feeder or other pets then. What do you recommend. Even if I do what myates is doing how do you dispose of them?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Put them in a bag and throw it in the garbage, which is what I do. Feeding works to.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

Feed them to larger fish..


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Ok I have got a couple questions. 

I have a 20 gal full of kribs and someone is buying all of them so I will clear the tank out. Now I've got a 5 full of guppies and a 10 with 3 bettas. The female is in a jar. So 4 bettas total. 

Should I keep the 5 full of guppies and breed in the 10 or 20 then keep the other bettas in the 10 or the 20. Or do out the guppies into the 10 or 20 and use the 5 or other tank for breeding and storing bettas?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I would breed in the 10, that way they won't need to be moved as soon.. have some room to grow. Then you will need a grow out.. if you keep the spawn small you can use the 20, but if you have a good amount, over 30 fry.. then I would suggest getting a larger grow out tank.

Sounds like you don't have enough space.. the guppies should be in a 10g+, a 5g is rather small for multiple fish when it comes to the bioload. And you have 3-4 bettas that will need to be homed elsewhere, as you will need the 10 for the spawning and the 20 for grow out (at very minimal you would use a 20 long.. only if you cull heavily). 

I would get a 30g+ for grow out, get a 10g for your guppies, use the 20g for your bettas divided up, use the 10g you have for your guppies, and the 5g can be used for additional bettas - if there are one or two you want to keep to breed in the future you can divide it up to grow them out in.

Don't forget all the jars/containers needed for the juveniles, and a way to heat them up.


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## Mahsfish (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry I do have a 50 gal that I plan to use for a grow out aswell. And the guppies are my feeders for my cons.


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