# Substrate help



## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

I currently have my tank with aquarium colored gravel and sand. The sand is confined to a small portion of the front of the tank which is held in place by large zebra rocks and red striped rocks. The colored gravel is on the other side of the rocks. It's meant to look like a white sandy beach kinda haha.

I know that plants can live in gravel and sand but I was considering possibly adding this stuff I saw at Petsmart. It was like nutrient substrate, but I cannot for the life of me remember the name. It was like argonite or something? I would keep the same idea using the gravel and sand layout but I would put the nutrient stuff under it. What stuff do you guys use under sand and gravel to make the plants more happy?


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## Betaphototramp (Apr 13, 2014)

Cribsea makes a good product. However I have always used Flourite as a substrate It is Iron and mineral rich and my plants thrive in the environment. I also use Flourish once a week and a CO2 Booster daily. My plants have gone from sparse and no roots to a jungle that I have to keep trimming in a month.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

Does that Flourite harm shrimp and snails?


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## Betaphototramp (Apr 13, 2014)

No it does not. Flourite is a Substrate for plants and will not harm fish or invertebrates.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

I was only asking because you wrote Iron and mineral rich. Everywhere I look people have said metals and stuff are bad for fish and inverts so it's very confusing to figure out. Thank you, I'll look into getting a bag of the Flourite maybe but I wanna see what others say. I know there are a few kinds of substrate besides sand and gravel and dirt.


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## Tony2632 (Aug 30, 2013)

Only copper is harmful to inverts, everything else is fine. There is a lot of substrates to choose from like Flourite, Eco-complete, Organic Soil, and ADA aquasoil. A lot of them are high in CEC, which adsorbs nutrients from the water column for the roots to feed off. Iron is important, but it's not the only nutrient root feeders need. Your 3 major nutrients for root feeders is still your 3 main macros nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. I ran eco-complete for a year with my shrimp and fish with no ill effects. I also did organic soil with a sand cap with no ill effects. My next project is ADA aquasoil with power sand S, bacter 100, and tourmaline BC, but this stuff for my next project is super expensive.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

Organic Soil is like potting soil or am I totally off? Also, does Flourite and Eco-Complete come in colors? The ADA aquasoil sounds interesting, what is that like? I won't do that since I am still alil newbie but curious of it.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Here's a site with reviews on various stratum and inverts:

Fluval Shrimp Stratum Review | Shrimp Fever


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

Okay so I just read on some of the different kinds, but still a bit confused. Eco-Complete comes in Black or Red and then there is Flourite which comes in Original, Red, Black and Black sand. What is the differences of these? Are they dirt (not really wanting dirt)? Could I mix them together to make like a mega mix?

CaribSea Instant Aquarium Freshwater Substrates - Is this even a nutrient rich substrate? Would this be a better alternative than my regular white sand I have?


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## Tony2632 (Aug 30, 2013)

Oldfishlady made a topic for dirt for it here. Link---> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=114575

Eco-complete and Flourite I believe does come in colors. I have black eco-complete, because I love how the black makes the green pop.

ADA aquasoil is great product, but the down fall is ammonia spikes when you first get it. I feel it's great for new set ups, because I can just cycle it. I also feel it's the same to potting soil mix just without the cap and I love how it looks naturally. It's very expensive and feels like your just paying for the name, but every planted tank using the stuff had great results in the end. I just payed $250 just for the substrate and 7.2gal ADA tank. Only reason I want it is because I just wanna try it out lol.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

Are any of these dirt though? I'm not really wanting soil or dirt. I was hoping they were like sand or something similar.


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## Tony2632 (Aug 30, 2013)

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlouriteBlackSand.html. or dirt with any color sand on top


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Okay so I just read on some of the different kinds, but still a bit confused. Eco-Complete comes in Black or Red and then there is Flourite which comes in Original, Red, Black and Black sand. What is the differences of these? Are they dirt (not really wanting dirt)? Could I mix them together to make like a mega mix?
> 
> CaribSea Instant Aquarium Freshwater Substrates - Is this even a nutrient rich substrate? Would this be a better alternative than my regular white sand I have?


Still kinda curious about these questions. Lol.  If ya guys don't know that's fine too. I'm just confused and like opinions. :-D

Edit: Are the other colors sand like the Florite black sand?


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

I PMed ya Tony, I don't wanna spam double posting.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I use CaribSea Tahitian Moon Sand and root tabs and have inverts. It is one of the "Instant Aquarium" substrates. I include this link because someone may have asked your question and had it answered. Hope so. 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21432


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## mpooyan83 (Apr 12, 2014)

I like Eco complete over flourite.... less messy, and dosnt turn to mud after a while.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

mpooyan83 said:


> I like Eco complete over flourite.... less messy, and dosnt turn to mud after a while.


What do you mean turn to mud? I read that both of these you can leave in a tank and don't need to remove it ever.


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## KnownSyntax (Mar 7, 2014)

Why not just use Miracle Grow Organic Soil? I always use those in my planted tanks, and then cap it off with some pool filter sand. If you put enough of the organic soil (about 1 and 1/2 up to 3 inches) you won't really ever (at least with the plant I'm growing and have ran into) need to add in any ferts. The water color will turn yellow because of the tannins but after many water changes it'll be back to the crystal clear that you will know.

Plus if I recall (or at least at my LFS) it's WAY cheaper to do soil + pool filter sand, then to go with fluorite or another granular soil(?).


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

KnownSyntax said:


> Why not just use Miracle Grow Organic Soil? I always use those in my planted tanks, and then cap it off with some pool filter sand. If you put enough of the organic soil (about 1 and 1/2 up to 3 inches) you won't really ever (at least with the plant I'm growing and have ran into) need to add in any ferts. The water color will turn yellow because of the tannins but after many water changes it'll be back to the crystal clear that you will know.
> 
> Plus if I recall (or at least at my LFS) it's WAY cheaper to do soil + pool filter sand, then to go with fluorite or another granular soil(?).


Doesn't that eventually run out of the ferts and need replacing or using fert tabs/liquids? Will that be safe for shrimp and snails?


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## mpooyan83 (Apr 12, 2014)

So about the flourite, I've never actually used it myself. I've just read bad some things that made me wanna stay away. Some said it does get soft and break down. Also, apparently the preperation for flourite, before you can put it in your tank is a horrid. Eco complete you just cut open the bag and dump right in, no prepping needed. Flourite you gotta wash and scru, etc.... theres a process to it. Many people stated in reviews things like " I never wanna deal with that again". 
but yea, reading that stuff made me go with eco complete and its worked out well, looks nice, no mess, plants are thriving.


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## mpooyan83 (Apr 12, 2014)

The Seachem Root Tabs are safe for everything as well. I've used them for quite a while and my shrimp have not died or anything as a result. plus, the packing says its safe for invertebrates.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

mpooyan83 said:


> So about the flourite, I've never actually used it myself. I've just read bad some things that made me wanna stay away. Some said it does get soft and break down. Also, apparently the preperation for flourite, before you can put it in your tank is a horrid. Eco complete you just cut open the bag and dump right in, no prepping needed. Flourite you gotta wash and scru, etc.... theres a process to it. Many people stated in reviews things like " I never wanna deal with that again".
> but yea, reading that stuff made me go with eco complete and its worked out well, looks nice, no mess, plants are thriving.


Okay well the way you stated it, it made you sound like you have used it. I haven't read any bad reviews about either of these products actually. I watched a video on how someone used a mix, like how I wanna do, and the plants did wonderfully. Do you have any links about the preparation and reviews of the flourite you saw?


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## KnownSyntax (Mar 7, 2014)

BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Doesn't that eventually run out of the ferts and need replacing or using fert tabs/liquids? Will that be safe for shrimp and snails?


Everything runs out of ferts and nutrients after a while, however if you have malaysian trumpet snails to mix the sand up your fish(es) poop can be turned into the soil layer and provide nutrients to the plants. You would be looking at around 1-2 years for 1 1/2" inch of soil deep, and up to 2-4 for 2-3" deep before any nutrients are fully soaked up from the soil. You would be looking at roughly $8-9 for a medium sized bag of soil, and $7 for 50lbs of pool filter sand just as a rough cost.

It is completely snail and shrimp friendly, but be in mind you will likely need malaysian trumpet snails to mix the sand up so the bottom layer has room to "breathe" and allows for plant roots to get oxygen as well.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

KnownSyntax said:


> Everything runs out of ferts and nutrients after a while, however if you have malaysian trumpet snails to mix the sand up your fish(es) poop can be turned into the soil layer and provide nutrients to the plants. You would be looking at around 1-2 years for 1 1/2" inch of soil deep, and up to 2-4 for 2-3" deep before any nutrients are fully soaked up from the soil. You would be looking at roughly $8-9 for a medium sized bag of soil, and $7 for 50lbs of pool filter sand just as a rough cost.
> 
> It is completely snail and shrimp friendly, but be in mind you will likely need malaysian trumpet snails to mix the sand up so the bottom layer has room to "breathe" and allows for plant roots to get oxygen as well.


Ah well I currently have cherry shrimp and about 30 ramshorn snails and a pleco. Would those do the same for the pooping and mixing like the malaysian trumpet snails?


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## mpooyan83 (Apr 12, 2014)

BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Ah well I currently have cherry shrimp and about 30 ramshorn snails and a pleco. Would those do the same for the pooping and mixing like the malaysian trumpet snails?


They help a little bit, but no where near what Malaysian trumpet snails do. Malaysian trumpet snail bury themselves under the substrate, then when u turn the lights off, they all storm out. Its cool to watch. but yea, they actually dig and mixed things up.


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## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm currently using Carib Sea Flora Max original color. It's more like a gravel and I just hide it under my established tanks gravel. It tends to mix in though if you can't remove your tanks current gravel. So far my plants are doing great, but I haven't had it long term.

Flourite does get muddy after a while, I have had it for about 2-3 months and the very bottom of Mako and Thanato's tanks turned into a clay-like mess. I just rinsed it out a little and replaced it with the Flora Max.

It will cloud water and needs to be rinsed out quite a bit before you put it in or your water will turn black. Especially if you just dump water into your tank. One bag ran me about $17.99 and has so far covered 4/6 tanks and I still have some left over. All of them 5 or 5.5 gallon tanks.









You can see it mixed a lot in Mako's tank. His gravel was the blue, black and white with a little pink. The Orange-red and some of the black is the Flora Max.

http://www.caribsea.com/caribsea/itempage_freshwater_substrates_floramax.html

Depending on your preference, it also comes in "volcanic" red and "midnight" black.
It claims to contain magnesium, calcium, potassium and some other minerals as well as being porous for aeration but I'll likely still end up getting snails....just in case.


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

mpooyan83 said:


> They help a little bit, but no where near what Malaysian trumpet snails do. Malaysian trumpet snail bury themselves under the substrate, then when u turn the lights off, they all storm out. Its cool to watch. but yea, they actually dig and mixed things up.


Are those the small triangular looking snails? I can prolly get a whole bunch of those from my local Petsmart for free if so.


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## mpooyan83 (Apr 12, 2014)

BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Are those the small triangular looking snails? I can prolly get a whole bunch of those from my local Petsmart for free if so.


I saw some at Petsmart that looked like Malaysian trumpet snails, however, when I asked, the lady told me they are just Pest snails. So i guess you gotta be careful where you getem from. Gott be sure they are actually trumpet snails and not pest snails.

plus, you can getem for about 1$ a piece with free shipping off of ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Young-Ad...594?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4183f37c42


there are many more auctions for malaysian trumpet snails there, thats just one. Can check aquabid.com as well. The spiked ones in that link are pretty cool lookin tho


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

mpooyan83 said:


> I saw some at Petsmart that looked like Malaysian trumpet snails, however, when I asked, the lady told me they are just Pest snails. So i guess you gotta be careful where you getem from. Gott be sure they are actually trumpet snails and not pest snails.
> 
> plus, you can getem for about 1$ a piece with free shipping off of ebay.
> 
> ...


Will the MTS hurt my Ramshorns? I don't want anything hurting them. I am super protective of them.


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## mpooyan83 (Apr 12, 2014)

BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Will the MTS hurt my Ramshorns? I don't want anything hurting them. I am super protective of them.


As far as I've seen and what i've read, they don't bother anything. You just gotta be good at population control, the same way you probably do with your ramshorns.
I havnt had any MTS for quite a while now. Hopefully someone that has had them together in the same tank can answer that better.


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## tankman12 (Nov 13, 2012)

No they wont hurt each other. They get live with each other, no problem 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KnownSyntax (Mar 7, 2014)

BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Will the MTS hurt my Ramshorns? I don't want anything hurting them. I am super protective of them.


No, they won't hurt anything. Ramshorns may eat your live plants, while MTS will only eat the dead matter off of them.



BambooTikiBettaGirl84 said:


> Ah well I currently have cherry shrimp and about 30 ramshorn snails and a pleco. Would those do the same for the pooping and mixing like the malaysian trumpet snails?


No, MTS bury themselves into the bottom of the substrate during the day, and at night they come up and start eating. Cherry shrimp won't eat any poop, they eat detritus off of them and the snails eat algae and some live plants, and a pleco eats algae and also some live plants (some of the time if their diet isn't varied enough, or so I've experienced).


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## BambooTikiBettaGirl84 (Jun 29, 2014)

I haven't had any problems with my snails and pleco eating any plants. I know the pleco gets stuff off the javafern I have but it's doing fine with his cleanings. I give them algae wafers and they have driftwood so that should keep him happy with food. I will look into getting some MTS since they look cool and to hear they burrow is even cooler.


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