# Wilson doesn't like his new tank?



## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Hi all,

First off I have to say I absolutely love this website. I've been reading it non-stop for the last week now and have learned SO much. 

My girlfriend had a betta (Wilson) in a itty bitty 1 gallon tank and I finally convinced her to upgrade to a 2.5 gallon tank (still too small, I know, baby steps!). His old tank was just a tank, no heater, no filter, no light. His new tank is a http://www.petco.com/product/113978/PETCO-25-Gallon-Desktop-Aquarium.aspx with a heater, some plant decorations for him to hide behind, a thermometer and his little barrels to sleep in at night. With this new tank the filter has a pretty wicked flow rate. I've read about baffling it and have seen someone mention they submerged it so that's what I've done and it has reduced it considerably (I'd still prefer a sponge though, so I'll be looking for one.)

Since the big move, and after cycling the tank and making sure everything was okay (good pH, 0 ammonia / nitrite / nitrate, water temps were the same) he's hanging around the back corner of the tank and has stopped eating. I've checked the water again and everything is the same. I've moved the heater to see if he was just sitting by the warm water and he didn't follow it, still hides in the top back corner. In his old tank he loved his barrels to hide in and now I haven't seen him go in them even once. I'm sure he's stressed or scared but just wanted to make sure you guys agree too.

I thought it might be the current of the water since that's the safe spot on the top of the water but when I turned it off for several hours he still didn't move. There's 0 current under water too, it's just the top layer that moves around.


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## nel3 (May 29, 2011)

maybe he's too surprised at all the extra space. you could give him time to settle in. i like to keep my betta in a 1 gal atm but he likes my .5g QT tank even more. i'll have to fill the 1g tank 50% for a while and slowly bring it to full capacity so he wont stress out much.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I read somewhere that covering the sides with a towel might help him feel secure, going to try that


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Ohhh - I'm sorry to read that Wilson doesn't like his new digs. I think maybe give him a few days to a week or so to acclimate to the extra space. 

I LOVE that tank! I have the 2 gal. version & it is AWESOME, IMO. What do you think of it?

OTOH, SOME bettas DO actually prefer smaller homes. Just keep an eye on Wilson & if he doesn't come around you just might have to move him back. Of course, that would give you a good excuse to get another betta!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I really love the design! I especially like that the tank and lights are two separate units and the back is carved out for the filter. If there was a way to throttle the filter down a bit it'd be perfect. I've submerged it for now to slow the current down to see if it'll make Wilson less stressed but no luck just yet. Once he's back to normal I'll raise it up and see if he's okay with it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Does he have hiding spots, like a little cave, in his new tank? The more hiding spots they have, the more confident they get. Just knowing they can hide when they need to makes them feel safe.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

He has his barrels he's used to and has the two plants to hide behind, for awhile he was hiding underneath the filter but since then I've blocked that (got a little worried he'd get sucked to it when trying to come out)


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. Maybe add another plant for the time being? But mostly all I can suggest is giving him time to settle in. It could take a few days because for him, it's just like coming home from the pet store all over again. And it is true, some bettas do prefer smaller tanks. If, in a week, he hasn't settled down and started acting normal, you might as well move him back to his old tank and get another betta for the bigger one. The only downsides with his old 1g are the water changes every other day at the very least and trying to find a heater for it.

Well, good luck, I hope everything works out okay for you.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Yeah, I was thinking about adding another of the tall green plants to the tank on the other side.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Probably a good sign: He's nestled himself against the green plant right where the filter flows the water out so it runs over his body. Must feel good or something? I moved him and he went back to the spot. Silly guy, looks like he's lounging. Definitely a relief.


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## hodgepodgen (Feb 25, 2011)

Some bettas prefer the smaller tanks... something about a comfort zone. If it continues I'd move him back into his other tank or maybe take a bit of the water out?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

hodgepodgen said:


> Some bettas prefer the smaller tanks... something about a comfort zone. If it continues I'd move him back into his other tank or maybe take a bit of the water out?


I was wondering that as well... maybe if I lower the water level he'll realize his barrels are still there... Going to experiment when I do the next water change.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He would probably love a new plant. Taking out some water sounds like a good idea too. You can build him up to a full tank, get him used to it gradually. He looks so cute cuddled up there in the pic.


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## Jessabell (Aug 16, 2010)

This happened to one of my betta once. He didn't eat or move around for TWO weeks, but eventually, he came around C:


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Hi guys, I noticed today his scales seem a little funny.. some of them almost look pushed in... I'm probably just being a paranoid parent afraid somethings wrong with his poor Wilson but any words would be of comfort. Needless to say he's still in the same spot. In this pic it's by his dorsal fin. Still not eating, going on 6 days now.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Are your nitrates at 0? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Nitrates should have a reading, if they don't, the tanks not cycled. Could you check the ammonia again? My fish get like this if the ammonia gets a little high. Any betta I've had wasn't shocked by a 1.5g change. I'm just worried there might be something else causing this, not just being shy. I would feel bad if I didn't say something!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I'll check them all right now


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I second Pitluvs. The scales look fairly normal, just like he is trying to pull himself in and make himself as small as possible. His tail is a bit clamped, too. And yes, if the cycle is complete there should be 0 ammonia and nitrite readings but a small nitrate reading.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I have no idea how I messed up the readings... here's the new ones:

pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 2.0 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm

I'm going to test the old tank... I cant believe I've been keeping him in there


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It happens easily because those darn color charts are so hard to read!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

What should I do with the tank? The guy at the store gave me Nutrafin Cycle to start building up the bacteria and I thought it was done with the 0ppm readings... I'm worried to continue now without some knowledgeable guidance...


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Wowzers, that would explain it then!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Do a partial water change to bring the ammonia down, add in the nutrafin cycle and then test again tomorrow. The higher nitrate readings means you're close to finished with the cycling.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I dont understand it... I did a 50% water change yesterday... the ammonia must have been through the roof if it's still that high, no?


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Do a partial water change to bring the ammonia down, add in the nutrafin cycle and then test again tomorrow. The higher nitrate readings means you're close to finished with the cycling.


^^^ Yup! Keep checking the water too, monitor your Ammonia so you know what it's at. If it gets too high (over 0.5ppm personally) then do a 50% change (other than your normal water changes of course). But do what Sakura said, and ASAP.

Am I ever happy those numbers jumped out at me and I asked! SEE?? If I closed the window.... I don't even want to think about it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You did a big water change already? Yeeks . . . Even a 50% should have brought it down even more. I'm thinking the Nutrafin Cycle is giving you wonky readings. It doesn't make sense to have high ammonia readings AND high nitrate readings unless you hadn't changed the water for like a year. :/ Maybe do another 25% change and don't add the Nutrafin Cycle this time?

Edit: What water conditioner do you use?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I haven't added the Nutrafin Cycle since last wed-fri, it has you add some for 3 days and when it was the 4th the readings seemed okay.. I havent been adding any with the water changes... does that change the plan at all?


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I know I added Cycle to my tanks while it was cycling (didn't know it actually doesn't work) and my ammonia was the same after water changes. My ammonia never got to 2ppm though, but I have seen a member on here that her ammonia was 5ppm in her 5g tank  
Either way, the ammonia is too high. Are you using those 5 in one test strips?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

No I read they were very inaccurate so I got the API master test kit


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Uhm, man, I'm so confused. Okay, no, I don't think it changes the plan. Still do a 25% change to see if that brings the ammonia down to 0 or close to that and don't add the Nutrafin Cycle. At this point, the tank should be able to manage without the extra boost. Then test again and see what the results are. It SHOULD, in theory, be very low or no ammonia, low nitrites and medium nitrate. In theory. If not, then maybe the Nutrafin added in more ammonia-eating bacteria than there is ammonia. If that is the case then without ammonia to eat, the ammonia-eating bacteria would die and cause an ammonia spike. Ironic, isnt' it. That would be my guess as to what may be going on.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Sakura... Cycle doesn't really add anything. In order for it to add bacteria, bacteria would have to be alive and nothing can live in a closed bottle on a shelf. I am convinced cycle just messes with your readings so you think your tank is cycled and you add fish and wonder why they die off. By the time you go back to the pet store and buy more, your tank cycles on it's own lol


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh, thanks for clarifying that for me, Pitluvs. But now my #1 theory went out the window, haha. Orsini, based on what Pitluvs just said, I guess my new theory is the Cycle messed up your readings. But what that does to your tank cycle I don't know. -_-


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

What should I do =\ Just about done with the 20% change


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Keep testing the readings every day and do water changes as necessary, I guess. Sooner or later the Cycle has to wear off, right, Pitluvs? Then the readings will be more accurate and we can better tell where you are in the tank cycling process. How long ago did you start cycling?


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Just keep testing your levels and do a water change everyday so the ammonia doesn't get too high. Keep an eye on your little guy. If you remove him, your tank cycle will crash and you'll have to start over again. 

PERSONALLY/// I think your ammonia is right, and your nitrites are right. Your ammonia has spiked, and now your nitrites are starting to climb. Your ammonia should start going down, and your nitrites get higher. Then your nitrates should kick in. I am convinced Cycle adds fake nitrates to tanks, so when you check for them, they are there. That's the only thing I can come up with... where your numbers are all over the place.

What do you do for regular water changes?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Early last week when I got the tank I started adding the Nutrafin, after day 3 the readings seemed okay but I'm thinking I obviously messed those up. So its a very new 2.5 gallon tank.

I just did the 50% water change yesterday, measured it, added the conditioner and made sure it was the same temp going in.. nothing else


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Reading over nutrafin again, I didnt have a source of ammonia for the bacteria to eat... everything was brand new... =\ I guess they do now... so should I put the nutrafin in? It claims to create bacteria to eat the ammonia, but I didnt have ammonia for it to eat... so confusing

I guess my real question is is there a downside to adding it now? especially if we know there is ammonia in it now.. read 0 before... im thinking because there wasnt any ammonia then but now that the bacteria has died there is?


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Personally, I'd take whatever of the Nutrafin you have back to the petstore and demand a refund. Buy a decoration  Cycle is nothing but a gimmick. Anything that is live cannot be stored on a shelf for gosh knows how long and work in a tank. The only bacteria that can help you in a tank cycle is something that is kept cold.

I added mine when I had ammonia (I noticed the ammonia spike in my readings and asked the pet store what I should use) and they sold me Cycle. It doesn't work, I still had to wait weeks for my tank to properly cycle


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Well wilson is in the water and the old tank is just as bad =\ I gotta do something for the poor guy.. sitting in a toxic bath


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I think I would steer clear of the Nutrafin for now and just let the cycle run on its own. That way we know for sure what's causing what. With the Nutrafin, it's kind of an unknown factor. I agree with Pitluvs, it sounds like you are in the middle of the cycle when the nitrites begin to appear.

Is your betta in the tank right now as it's cycling? I can't recall if you mentioned it or not.

Edit: Haha posted a second too late. With Wilson in there, you'll have to do frequent water changes the moment the ammonia gets over the unsafe level. I tend to use .25 but for cycling purposes it helps if you wait for the ammonia to build to 1.0 or up. Wilson will get uncomfortable though when it gets that high so it's important to do the water change the moment you notice it that high. Cycling is a pain in the rear, isn't it?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

He's been in it since Friday when all of the readings were supposedly 0, so he's been suffering quite a lot since then there couldnt have been any bacteria to eat anything. He hasnt eaten so it couldnt have been his poop... where did the ammonia come from if not the nutrafin?


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Right now, water changes and water conditioners. Does your conditioner help keep the ammonia non toxic? Turns it in ammonium? (I said that right, right? lol)

You can use ammonia blockers from the pet store, but that might hinder your cycle.

I dunno  When this happened to me, I had a cycled 10g I could put my fish into. You could always put him back into the 1g with clean water but then your cycle will stop in your tank. I would keep doing water changes on the 2.5 when you see the ammonia is too high, maybe add a little Aquarium salt (1 tsp) to help with the ammonia and your betta.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Orsini said:


> He's been in it since Friday when all of the readings were supposedly 0, so he's been suffering quite a lot since then there couldnt have been any bacteria to eat anything. He hasnt eaten so it couldnt have been his poop... where did the ammonia come from if not the nutrafin?


When your fish passes the water through it's gills (or however under water breathing works) it turns into ammonia. So every underwater breath he is taking, causes ammonia. 

If he's been in it since Friday and you only changed 50% of the water yesterday, your ammonia would be through the roof. I would personally change the water every 2-3 days while cycling a 2.5g


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Did the 25% and it's down to 1.0 ppm, so it dropped 1.0, time to do another 25%?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, another 25% would help.

If you do take Wilson out and put him in the 1g, you can continue the cycle by putting a bit of shrimp in a piece of cheesecloth or nylon hose. As long as there is something decaying in the water to give off ammonia. Fish food also works but it can really stink and also cause a planaria worm bloom. Pure ammonia works too but it has to be pure ammonia with no additives like scents or soaps. If you find some, shake the bottle. If it foams up a lot, it's not good. If it foams only a little or not at all, it will work. Just add a bit of ammonia and let the bacteria go to town. Since there won't be any fish, you won't have to do as many water changes.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I would do one more but you want some ammonia in there for the nitrites to eat. If it goes back up, do your water change  It should start dropping though. I believe 1pp is where it gets uncomfortable for fish :9


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Yes, another 25% would help.
> 
> If you do take Wilson out and put him in the 1g, you can continue the cycle by putting a bit of shrimp in a piece of cheesecloth or nylon hose. As long as there is something decaying in the water to give off ammonia. Fish food also works but it can really stink and also cause a planaria worm bloom. Pure ammonia works too but it has to be pure ammonia with no additives like scents or soaps. If you find some, shake the bottle. If it foams up a lot, it's not good. If it foams only a little or not at all, it will work. Just add a bit of ammonia and let the bacteria go to town. Since there won't be any fish, you won't have to do as many water changes.


Haha when I do my ammonia cycle.. I aint changing nothing! I change water for fish only  But seriously.. Sakuras right on the things you can add if you want to take Wilson out. Just remember to change his 1g tank water often.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks a lot guys. So what should my battleplan be? 25% changes when it spikes past 1.0? I guess I'll know its done when it drops to 0 with 0 nitrite


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi guys, I ran across your thread so I'll add my two cents. I've been forced into the "cycling" world lately because of my recent tank experiences with my 10 gal. (Cycling is a drag!) Here's what I can add. As all the folks have already added, ammonia and nitritates are totally toxic to your fish. The nitritates can be more devestating than the ammonia. First thing is to make sure you're using a water conditioner like Prime. As Pitluv's stated, you have to have a conditioner that will turn your ammonia into ammonium. Ammonium is non-toxic to your fish. You also need to detoxify your nitrites and Prime will do this for you. You can also use higher doses of Prime in an emergency situation - the bottle explains the process. So if you don't have Prime, you need it quickly. Secondly, doses of Aquarium Salt will also help detoxify nitrites. Third, your tap water may contain ammonia. Mine does. So everytime I do a water change, my ammonia goes up. However, I use Prime so I know it's not toxic. But as an FYI, your tests will still show ammonia. A typical cycle can take up to 4 weeks with a "fish in". Obviously this is very stressful for your fish (as your witnessing). If it's possible, could you transfer him back to his little space and then do research on a "fishless" cycle? Oh, and from experience, I agree that those bacteria boosters just don't work. The best cycle booster is a little bit of gravel or a used piece of filter media from an already established tank. If you don't have any friends with an established tank, then just bypass that option. For your little friend at this stage is to first get Prime and dose his water. Or you can remove him back to his little space, or do lots of water changes in the cycling process. The frequent water changes slow your cycle process, but it's better than losing your fish! Good luck with all of this - Just know you're not alone!


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Since you're doing 2 25% changes right now, I would do 50% change when it hits 1ppm or more.

Your cycle will be complete when your Ammonia is 0, your Nitrites are 0 and your Nitrates are under 20


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> Hi guys, I ran across your thread so I'll add my two cents. I've been forced into the "cycling" world lately because of my recent tank experiences with my 10 gal. (Cycling is a drag!) Here's what I can add. As all the folks have already added, ammonia and nitritates are totally toxic to your fish. The nitritates can be more devestating than the ammonia. First thing is to make sure you're using a water conditioner like Prime. As Pitluv's stated, you have to have a conditioner that will turn your ammonia into ammonium. Ammonium is non-toxic to your fish. You also need to detoxify your nitrites and Prime will do this for you. You can also use higher doses of Prime in an emergency situation - the bottle explains the process. So if you don't have Prime, you need it quickly. Secondly, doses of Aquarium Salt will also help detoxify nitrites. Third, your tap water may contain ammonia. Mine does. So everytime I do a water change, my ammonia goes up. However, I use Prime so I know it's not toxic. But as an FYI, your tests will still show ammonia. A typical cycle can take up to 4 weeks with a "fish in". Obviously this is very stressful for your fish (as your witnessing). If it's possible, could you transfer him back to his little space and then do research on a "fishless" cycle? Oh, and from experience, I agree that those bacteria boosters just don't work. The best cycle booster is a little bit of gravel or a used piece of filter media from an already established tank. If you don't have any friends with an established tank, then just bypass that option. For your little friend at this stage is to first get Prime and dose his water. Or you can remove him back to his little space, or do lots of water changes in the cycling process. The frequent water changes slow your cycle process, but it's better than losing your fish! Good luck with all of this - Just know you're not alone!


That was so beautiful written *tears*

I would leave Wilson in there until you can find a way to do fishless cycle. The shrimp idea in cheese cloth sounds like a great idea. Fish food is cheap but I am not familiar with it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks, flowerslegacy, all that info helps a lot.  Cycling is such a draaaaaaag.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I cannot count the amount of times I wanted to smash my 29g tank when I got hit with the cycle issue. I cried for days! Took me 3 weeks, my ammonia was stuck at 0.25ppm and wouldn't go down. Soo.. I went to the pet store and asked them to squeeze all they could out of their 200g goldfish tank's filter into a bag of water. You couldn't see your hand in my tank after I dumped that sucker in. Within 3 days, I was cycled hahaha I wouldn't suggest this though, pet stores can be dirty. But with having a fish in the tank and seeding it with my established 10g.. I was getting desperate. All my fish were in a tiny 10g.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I've done a fishless cycle and it certainly requires patience if you don't have established medium - but it's worth it! The shrimp method seems to be the easiest, but I've learned that the rotting flesh *can* cause a bacterial growth in your tank - which can be very hard to remove. However, I don't know enough about it! It's just worth researching before you start it.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

testing the old tanks water, i have a feeling its no better.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, that's the absolute best way to cycle a tank is to use gravel or used filter media from an established tank. When I got my first tank I didn't know a soul who had a tank so I had to do it fish in. But I was always so worried my guy was suffering so I changed the water constantly - naturally my tank didn't cycle with no ammonia in there! I finally gave up on consciously trying to cycle it and just did loads of water changes. Months later, it cycled on its own, it just took FOREVER.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

The old tank should have clean treated water in it... you should test your tap water with no conditioners in it.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hahaha, Pitluvs you crack me up! I went through the same issue after I crashed my cycle at 6 weeks. I added tap water without conditioner and the chlorine killed all my bacteria. Grrr!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Another avenue for removing ammonia is to add a plant. You have high pH like I do, so an easy plant to try is Brazilian Pennywort. Petco states they sell it, but it may only be online. I had to drive to a local aquarium 25 miles from my home to find some. But if you can get it, just float it in your tank - it doesn't have to be rooted. In a day or so it will remove your ammonia. However, it won't remove your nitrites. Plants will only use nitrites after their ammonia source is depleated, and with your fish in the tank, he'll provide all the ammonia the plant will need.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Looks like my tap is 0.25ppm Ammonia. My water conditioner is http://www.petco.com/product/105278/TetraAqua-BettaSafe-Water-Conditioner.aspx

His old tank's readings are: 1.0ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite, 5.0ppm Nitrate. Doing a small change to hopefully bring down the ammonia and move the poor guy back


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I agree with flowerslegacy, get Prime to use as your wter conditioner. You won't regret it.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I certainly will. I have wondered with water conditioner, is there a bad side to adding it to existing water? Or going over the dose amount? I guess I dont understand exactly what it does


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Orsini said:


> Looks like my tap is 0.25ppm Ammonia. My water conditioner is http://www.petco.com/product/105278/TetraAqua-BettaSafe-Water-Conditioner.aspx
> 
> His old tank's readings are: 1.0ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite, 5.0ppm Nitrate. Doing a small change to hopefully bring down the ammonia and move the poor guy back



I don't understand why you can't just change most of the water in the tank, heat it up and transfer him back? Why small water changes? 

Looks like you're going to need a conditioner that will remove ammonia since you have it in your water system  Prime has been suggested.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Pitluvs said:


> I don't understand why you can't just change most of the water in the tank, heat it up and transfer him back? Why small water changes?
> 
> Looks like you're going to need a conditioner that will remove ammonia since you have it in your water system  Prime has been suggested.


That's what I'm doing, adding more water to his old one and going to move him back, said it exactly lol


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I tried to link to your conditioner and it led me to tank hoods. Is it a Petco brand?? At least your nitrites are 0, but your ammonia is way too high. Water changes will definately help, but you'll still be adding ammonia back to the tank if your tap is .25ppm and your conditioner is not converting it. If you want to post the name of your conditioner, I'll look it up for you and let you know.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> I tried to link to your conditioner and it led me to tank hoods. Is it a Petco brand?? At least your nitrites are 0, but your ammonia is way too high. Water changes will definately help, but you'll still be adding ammonia back to the tank if your tap is .25ppm and your conditioner is not converting it. If you want to post the name of your conditioner, I'll look it up for you and let you know.


TetraAqua BettaSafe Water Conditioner

I didnt see anything about converting ammonia in it, definitely getting prime tomorrow


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Orsini said:


> I certainly will. I have wondered with water conditioner, is there a bad side to adding it to existing water? Or going over the dose amount? I guess I dont understand exactly what it does


Water conditoner removes harmful chlorine in your tap water. Chlorine will kill your fish. It also reduces harmfull chemicals and metals in your water. Some turn Ammonia in Ammonium, making it less poisonous to your fish.

I know some people on here add twice as much to their tanks thank needed if there is a call for it. It's ok to go over with your dose, but never under.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

You can certainly add conditioner to your tank, but it's not the preferred method. It's better to add it when you're doing the water change so it can be adequatly mixed before you add the water back to the tank.  Also, overdosing on conditioner isn't a great idea either. If you're a drop or so over, it's not going to really hurt - it's better to overdose than underdose! But the directions have specifications for a reason. Either way, if your conditioner doesn't convert the ammonia, the water changes will have a small effect.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Orsini said:


> His old tank's readings are: 1.0ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite, 5.0ppm Nitrate. *Doing a small change to hopefully bring down the ammonia* and move the poor guy back


Small change haha I would personally do a large change of water (80%). Your bacteria isn't in your water, its on the rocks/walls/decorations and in your filter  He won't get shock being in clean water with no ammonia. You should see the cup that Ben came home in.. it was 2ppm. I put him in clear water (tablespoon at a time in his cup to get him used to it) and he was happy as a clam.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Okay, yeah, be sure and get some Prime. The tetrasafe won't work for your tap. But it's doing it's job by removing all the harmful chemicals and chlorine, as Pitluv stated.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> You can certainly add conditioner to your tank, but it's not the preferred method. It's better to add it when you're doing the water change so it can be adequatly mixed before you add the water back to the tank. Also, overdosing on conditioner isn't a great idea either. If you're a drop or so over, it's not going to really hurt - it's better to overdose than underdose! But the directions have specifications for a reason. Either way, if your conditioner doesn't convert the ammonia, the water changes will have a small effect.


haha I use Stress Coat.. which is a huge dose compared to Prime. I keep forgetting you only need a few drops! I need 0.5ml per gallon so I usually put 1ml. My fish have stopped having issues since I did this.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I got some bottled water today and some Prime (also got this foam, do you think it would be a good to baffle my filter with? Rather you guys say yay or nay before I cut it up to try lol.. it's a mechanical filter :http://www.petmountain.com/product/...-502995/fluval-fluval-foam-block-104-105.html)

The ammonias both didn't go anywhere. Going to test the bottled water just because I'm paranoid beyond belief now. As for the Prime, is it okay for me to go ahead and add it to the existing water?


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Actually, I would never use distilled water in a fish tank. It lacks everything good your Betta needs. The Prime and your regular tap water would be ok.

The sponge I know nothing about LOL I was going to buy the Fluval Chi filters for my intake actually.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I meant bottled water. Something from a different source than my tap lol.

Can I add the prime to his tank? or does it need to go with water changes


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Orsini said:


> I meant bottled water. Something from a different source than my tap lol.
> 
> Can I add the prime to his tank? or does it need to go with water changes


Bottled is the same thing actually. I would put some tap water in a 1g, treat it with prime and then tests it. See if it takes care of your ammonia. I am not sure if ammonium will show as ammonia on a test though. Make sure to shake shake shake those test bottles 

I would put the prime in with water changes, new water only.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Testing now!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Orsini, Your readings should still show ammonia with the Prime. Mine does. But that's okay because it's no longer toxic (whew!). It also allows your tank to still cycle since it doesn't actually "remove" the ammonia. As Pitluv stated, tap has lots of good minerals for your betta and bottled/spring water does not. You can use your tap with Prime and you will be good. In regards to the sponge, I don't know much about those specific sponges either. But as long as the sponge doesn't have any chemicals ie. soap, etc. it should be fine. I use filter floss and just rinse the heck out of it. I make a small mixture of water and prime and then rinse it a final time to make sure it's tank ready.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Just to clarify, ammonium can be toxic in high quantities so it's best to still do water changes when you see high ammonia readings. Prime CAN be added directly to the water as an emergency, the bottle should have instructions on there. 

Most test kits read ammonium as ammonia and they don't differentiate between the two. There are two types of kits, one called a nessler kit and one called a salicylate test kit. Most kits are nessler and read ammonium and ammonia as the same thing, usually leading to false positive test results. The salicylate test kits only read toxic ammonia, not ammonium. However, I have absolutely no idea which brand of testing kit is what kind. I believe if the bottle says Nh3/Nh4 it is a salicylate kit but not 100% sure on that.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thank you Sakura!! I've had an API Master Kit for so long, I forget the others that are out there. Yes, continue those water changes - they're important!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

So I just did another 50% water change on his old tank, 0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate. I think it's basically another brand new tank. Have to do constant water changes to keep it at an okay level but hopefully the other will be done soon. Can sleep a lot better knowing the ammonia wont be burning him tonight! The old tank didn't have a filter or anything and I transported all of his decorations to the new one so I think I basically took all of the bacteria with me lol.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> Thank you Sakura!! I've had an API Master Kit for so long, I forget the others that are out there. Yes, continue those water changes - they're important!


I really have GOT to get me one of those Master kits but I keep spending the money I set aside for one on more bettas, filters, plants etc. I'm so bad!

Orsini, I'm glad you've finally got things under control, what an epic battle. I'm certain your little guy knows how hard you're working to ensure his comfort, somehow they always sense those kinds of things. That and when you have food for them. They know that even when you're across the room.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Couldn't have done it without you guys! If you hadn't have noticed the odd numbers... Wilson might be dead... definitely suffering at the VERY least. Thank you guys SO much, I've learned a ton in the last 48 hours from you all.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

That's why we're here to help  So happy Wilson will be ok!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It was Pitluvs who noticed the odd numbers, thank her.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Ya I noticed, but I didn't even know if what I was noticing was a problem haha I just had to say it in case I was on to something.. if I didn't... *gulp* 

You guys provided more than enough information. Everyone had a huge part in this  I just sit on here too late and post too much haha


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

You'll all be in my signature from this day forward


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Yea!!! So glad that you're tank has settled down! It's always so nice to know our little friends are okay. Someone on the TropicalFishKeeping Forum had a signature that said, "We are not keepers of fish. We are keepers of water. The fish just live in it." Isn't that the truth! Congratulations on your new home for Wilson! Keep up the good work!


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Wowzers! First time I've ever been mentioned in a status and I've been on forums for over 10 years! haha Yay!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*blush* Aww shucks, yer makin' me blush.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Wilson passed away last night guys 

He started getting shiney around his gills but I didn't think it was serious or I was going crazy and thought I'd wait until morning to ask about it... Now his entire face is shiney and he's gone.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:shock: Aw no, I'm so sorry to hear that Orsini! Just when you got everything figured out with the tanks and all.    I'm so sorry, I wish there was something I could say or do.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I wonder what it was =\ I'm thinking now he started losing color. Now that he's gone his entire face is white like his gills were starting to get last night. I really want to know what happened so it doesn't happen again because this is terrible. Feel like I lost the war =\ He did go since Friday without food, the butthead


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

I am SO sorry to read that Wilson is gone! 

What you have learned here & through this entire experience will GREATLY benefit your next betta, though. 

Again, I am SO sorry about Wilson!!!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ammonia poisoning would be my guess because the tank was so wonky, but now that you've got the tanks under control that won't happen again. :/ Not eating didn't help him either, the silly doof. And no, you didn't lose the war. If you gave up on fish altogether you'd lose the war. You and Wilson lost a battle but he would want you to take the lessons learned about cycling and get another betta who needs a caring home. 

When Wilson's face started turning white, was it fuzzy or anything like that?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Oh Orsini, I'm so sorry  I know that losing a fish friend stinks. Heck my forum name is based on the goldfish I lost. But . . . that's how I found betta's and they are WONDERFUL fish to raise. Sakura is right, you lost a battle, but not the war. You've learned so much and there are so many little betta's out there who need a caring fish owner - You! It sounds like ammonia poisoning - that's what took my goldfish - but perhaps you can provide more details and Sakura can verify it for you. I'm not the disease person, she knows much more than me! So please, don't give up. We hope to see you post again with pics of your *new* friend!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

It really just looked like the skin around his gills lost all its color and was white, it was a little reflective as well. Today his whole face is that way. I'm definitely not giving up and when the 2.5 tank is fully cycled we'll be finding a new guy to take care of! I'd love to find one as cool looking as Lion Mom's betta.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm glad you're going to get a new betta.  There are so many bettas who need a good home like the one you can provide. And I agree, Lion Mom's betta is pretty cool. I also love the iridescence on the betta in flowerslegacy's avatar, too. And Pitluv's betta looks so handsome and macho. You can get a betta to fit any mood or personality, haha.

It still sounds like ammonia poisoning, like perhaps he had ammonia burns on his gills that inhibited his breathing. If his gills turned white, that means they lacked oxygen. Healthy gills are pinkish-red like a raw steak because the blood veins in the gills are so close to the surface and to the oxygen supply. Some ammonia burns on gills are visisble and some are not. Also, the shiny part could be from him producing excess slime coat to the point where it coated his gills and made breathing harder. Sick fish often go into slime coat overproduction because the slime coat will remove external parasites and bacteria from their bodies, but at the same time that slime coat also inhibits their ability to breathe. It sounds like a combo of those two things.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

We've all been here, new owners and catching something just a hairline too late. I lost my first Betta last month, Venom (Macho man in my avatar, thanks sakura!), like this  I still don't know what harmed him. I had him for a week  Now... I have my 3 boys, Ben's been with me for almost a month and I've even cured a sickness with him, I've helped Hughie get over his SBD and I took a boy suffering from ammonia poisoning last night. Don't give up, you'll get there too. At the time, someone said Venom and Carnage was like a learning experience for me and I thought they were cold and heartless for saying so. But now, a month later with these boys, they really were. If it were not for them, the three I have here would not be safe. 

Rest Peacefully Wilson, swim under the Rainbow Bridge with all our Bettas who have passed before.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Wilson is certainly under the Rainbow Bridge! (Go to the Betta's Memorial and you can read the story there - it's great!) I know we're all happy to hear that you'll be getting another friend. Macho or Shiny or Blue or Cream - once those little eyes look at ya, you'll know the one! Like Sakura said, you can find one for any personality - that's probably why we all end up having more than one - haha! They are truly great little fish that deserve a great owner like yourself.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Hi guys, I'm trying to complete the cycle on the 2.5 G tank. Today's readings are...

Ammonia: 2.0ppm
Nitrite: 0.5ppm
Nitrate: 5.0ppm

Since the last reading only the Nitrite has gone up .25ppm. Should it take this long on a 2.5G? I heard it takes a matter of days to fully cycle it. What should I do?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Trying to keep positive =\


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Orsini, I'm not sure about a small 2.5 gal because I've only cycled larger tanks. However, cycling does take awhile. Since Wilson is no longer in the tank, your cycle process will slow now down. The only way to truly speed up a cycle is to find an established tank and use some of it's substrate ie. gravel, used filter, used decoration, etc. The beneficial bacteria that eats ammonia and nitrites grows on those specific items, and if you can add them to your tank, your cycle will complete in a day or so. However, if you don't have a friend who has an established tank, you'll be cycling on your own and that can a few weeks. As a new aquarist, I reccomend you go to the "Betta Fish Bowls, Habitats and Accessories" section and click on "A Beginners Guide to a Freshwater Aquarium Cycle". This is packed with lots of great information and it will give you a better idea of where to start. I've also read some great threads regarding cycling too, and OldFishLady is another great source for cycling small betta tanks. At this point, since you already have ammonia and nitrites in your tank, leave it be. Next, read the articles and read through some threads. Your tank already has ammonia and nitrite, so you're a step ahead. Also, please note for future reference: Since your tap already has ammonia (even though it's a low amount) you won't need to add an outside ammonia source ie. shrimp, bottled ammonia, fish food, etc. The low ammonia levels in your tap will suffice for you since you're only going to be housing one betta. Just continue to add the prime as you add new tap to your tank, and you'll be good. I've been able to cycle my own tanks with .50ppm in my tap. Just have patience because cycling is a big drag, as you heard me, Sakura and Pitluvs state in our previous posts. Patience is the key to cycling! Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I have no idea how long it takes to cycle a 2.5g but I know most books and articles generally say 4-6 WEEKS for cycling and they never specify the tank size. :shock: That's why I did fish-in cycling, I was too impatient to wait that long. Anyhow, based on that info, I would guess it would take you another week or two at least. But don't quote me on that, Pitluvs and flowerslegacy probably will know more. Good luck!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

That sounds right Sakura. I've cycled a couple of my own bigger tanks, and experienced fish-in, fishless, and the joy of using substrate from an established tank. I researched A TON on each process, although my fish-in was purely by accident and a learning experience. My goldfish lost her eyesight from the poor water quality due to the ammonia - awful! So just hang in there Orsini! Your little tank will cycle, it just takes time and patience. We're here to help!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Here to help and here to chat to fill in the time while you're waiting.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Why did nobody PM me. Chloramines is the first thing to check.

*sigh* Sorry to hear about your loss, you meant well for him and I'm sure he is greatful to you for getting him a lovely home.


Anyway, even with a filter, it is extremely difficult to keep a stable cycle due to the amount of ammonia produced vs. concentration vs. time.

In larger tanks, the ammonia builds up fairly steadily, enough for the bacteria to grow and eat without spiking (and killing fish) and without gobbling it all up (famine and death for bacteria). In smaller tanks, ammonia concentration increases much faster, and the bacteria cannot reproduce fast enough. In this event, you can't leave your fish in it or else it will become poisoned, so you remove water. This immediately causes a fairly large decrease in the amount of food available for your bacteria, causing many of them to die off. If these bacteria die, they cannot produce the amount of food necessary for the second set of bacteria to grow and prosper, so your cycle is highly unstable.

I suggest:
- Get SeaChem Prime as others have said to purchase. To answer your question, yes you can just dump extra into the tank, it won't (it shouldn't) harm your fish as all it does is bind with molecules in the water. Obviously try not to toss it on his/her head as they're swimming past.
- If you're going to use the 2.5 Gal again, I would suggest removing the filter and proceed with an uncycled tank schedule of 50% 2-3 times a week and one 100% once a week
- Get some plants to help control ammonia
- Convince your girlfriend to get a 5 gallon for a new one... or...split it and get two bettas in the 5 gallon. <-- TOTALLY UNBIASED LOL


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Ach, you're right, I should have PMed you right from the start! :doh!: I can't believe I didn't think of that. All hail the water chemistry queen!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

LOL, No no I enjoyed reading all the posts in this (not the dying and suffering of course). I think you guys did a great job in the end XD


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, but it would have gone a lot smoother if I'd PMed you.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

We have a water chemistry Queen??!! Woo! Hoo! I'll hail the Queen and I this is my first encounter! Nothing is worse than cycling and knowing there is someone out there is glorious!! Obviously I'm new to the forum, but I'll always give my (limited) experienced advice to help out. But I'm no chemistry Queen! Especially when it comes to small tanks. Thanks for stepping in. I've considered smaller tanks vs. my divided 10 gals, but now I'll stick with the 10 gals. I prefer filters and lots of plants. Thanks!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

flowerslegacy, you have GREAT experience with cycling, way more than me. I'll be honest, I kinda never really cycled my tank. Not consciously anyway. I tried to do fish-in cycling but I was always so worried Sherman was suffering from high ammonia that I did too many water changes; I never had enough ammonia for the ammonia-eating bacteria, lol. I finally gave up and just did a lot of water changes. The tank cycled, just super slowly because I wasn't helping it along.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Sakura, you're so nice to me!! Thanks for the encouragment.  Cycling (for me) is right up there with going to the dentist - a big bummer! I'm just glad Orsini has a Chemistry Queen who was able to help her out with her new tank. I hope you stay in touch Orsini - we're looking forward to pics of your new friend!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Haha, between Bahamut, you, and Pitluvs, Orsini's got three chemistry/cycling queens.  That tank will be cycled in no time, Orsini.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Very happy to have so many people helping me recover  Since last week the Nitrite has gone up .25ppm. Readings are now:

Ammonia: 2.0 ppm
Nitrite: .50 ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm

I used Bettafix and then Prime so those should've killed chloramines.. I still have the filter in the tank though. Next steps? Keep waiting?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Orsini, Bahamut285 is obviously very experienced in the way of cycling small 2.5 gals. If you re-read her post, she's stating that a cycle in such a small tank will forever be unstable. Therefore, you'd be at a repetitive threat of causing ammonia and nitrite spikes and threatening the life of your betta. She's reccomending to remove the filter and simply have a non-cycled, 2.5 gal betta tank. Larger tanks are more stable in regards to cycling. At this point she's reccommending that you should dump out all of that water. Refill it will new tap, use your Prime, add a new betta and go from there! *Regular* water changes will be required, but you will no longer have to stress over a cycle.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Sorry.. What would removing the filter do if I'm doing water changes 3 times a week to prevent a cycle? I can understand the advantage to doing regular water changes over hoping for a stable cycle, just trying to understand everything.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I have to add, my experience is with larger tanks only, my 5gal came to me cycled which then helped me cycle my 10g. My 29g was cycled by me, but I did fish in and has assistance from extra rocks, decorations and the LPS fish tank LOL Now I have enough cycled tanks to start a new tank anytime. But I wouldn't cycle anything under 5g myself. Too much work. 

I have a filter in my 1.5g and I do regular water changes. I too am unsure why you would have to take the filter out? I'd just put a new one in. But interested to know why!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Here's what I think Bahamut was saying: Most folks use a filter, only when they have a cycled tank. Using a filter in a small betta tank that isn't cycled, isn't typical. I think she was making a point by stating "remove the filter and just do frequent water changes". In other words, don't cycle and just do frequent water changes. I think what Pitluv's does is just fine - I like it actually! Keep your filter if you'd like, maintain it like you should, replace it like required, just do your frequent water changes since the tank is too small to cycle.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, I agree with Pitluvs and flowerslegacy. Even if the filter isn't stable, it will still have some bacteria in it. And at the very least, it will keep the water looking clear.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I like that my filter breaks up the water just alittle bit, Twitch likes to surf in it. And the tanks are working for us so far and I'd hate to change something haha I usually just use filter wool in my tanks anyways.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Well then it sounds like a new addition to the family isn't far away. What are the rules on cleaning the tank equipment? I know 0 soap products and hot water, is that all that's required? I juuust got all the plants in the perfect spots too, shoot!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I hate when that happens. You just get the tank nice and organized and then you have to tear it down. Ugh, I had to do that when my sand went bad on me so I sympathize. For cleaning the filter, use tank water to rinse the filter media itself but warm water to rinse the filter housing (all the fun plastic stuff). Hot water and sun drying will work for the tank, gravel, decor, and plastic plants. Can't wait to see your new addition.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I would agree with Sakura and Pitluvs too. Filters collect particulate matter from the water. They're also a great place for any beneficial bacteria to grow - which can't hurt at all! Plus it provides a nice water flow to prevent that protein slick that can appear at the top of a stagnant tank, bowl, etc. Im certainly not an expert at smaller tanks, but I like the filter and water change combo!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, all of my tanks under 10g are unfiltered and believe me, if I could filter them I would (no more outlets anywhere!). Not only does the protein slick form, but some weird algae stuff forms on the bottom too. Blech.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Well I'm definitely going to get going on the change tonight. We'll start looking soon


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Sakura8 said:


> Yeah, all of my tanks under 10g are unfiltered and believe me, if I could filter them I would (no more outlets anywhere!). Not only does the protein slick form, but some weird algae stuff forms on the bottom too. Blech.


No more outlets? NO PROBLEM - POWER STRIPS!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Haha, I have one, I'm in the process of getting another for the same outlet. I'm going to blow a fuse, I swear.  Thanks, Lion Mom, you made me laugh. :lol:


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Sakura8 said:


> Haha, I have one, I'm in the process of getting another for the same outlet. I'm going to blow a fuse, I swear.  Thanks, Lion Mom, you made me laugh. :lol:


Glad I could be of service! :-D

I have so many power strips I should invest in one of the companies that makes them! :lol:

In all honesty, I've never thrown a breaker (we don't have fuses here anymore, thankfully). I THINK (but not 100% sure) that if it is overloaded the switch on the power strip trips.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good to know, Lion Mom.  Fortunately, with the possible exception of the lights, fish equipment isn't too bad energy-wise. But I look at all the cords everywhere and think "Oh. Wow."


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

You don't *HAVE* to remove the filter if you don't want to, just don't count on it to cycle XD

OP, could you test:
1) water from the tap
2) dechlorinated/treated water from tap

...And post? I would be able to make a better lookout on how you should perform a waterchange


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I've washed everything with warm water and cleaned it all. Readings:

*Tap*
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.50ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

*Treated*
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

I don't understand why the Ammonia would only drop a little and not completely? Also, the pH levels for the treated water looked a lighter color than 8.2 but not as light as 8.0, though Seachem claims to not alter pH levels. I wish it wasn't so high... I was thinking of having the partner bring up water from down south and keeping it in some jugs if it's a better pH. It was definitely lighter than the tap water's reading.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Your ammonia levels are still going to show because Prime converts the toxic ammonia to non-toxic ammonium. You can add fish, but your readings will still indicate an ammonia level. No worries. The toxicity has been removed. Also, Prime does not alter your pH level and honestly you don't have to worry about that issue. My pH is high as well. While bettas prefer a lower pH, they can tolerate a higher pH just fine. They can also live long lives in a higher pH environment. What is more damaging to bettas (or any fish!), is when we try and alter the pH and ultimately create an unstable pH environment. It is very difficult to keep pH stable and it requires a lot of research to understand the products available. An unstable pH is much more stressful for the fish vs. simply living at a stable, but higher pH level. I have personally been advised to leave my pH alone until I choose to learn a lot more about true water chemistry and the effects of each pH product. I have also been encouraged that a stable pH is a good pH.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Thanks for the test, that's very helpful!

The reason for the residual 0.25ppm of ammonia being read on the test is because Prime (or anything else) doesn't actually *remove* the ammonia, it simply changes it into a less toxic form, but is still read by tests.

My new recommendations are:
- Get plants to control the extra ammonia (I recommend water wisteria or anacharis)
- Get a 5 gallon so the cycle will remove it
- As an experiment, try to get your hands on some *spring* water (just a bottle for now), dilute your tapwater by half, and test it.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I'll have to build-up the GF towards getting a 5 gallon. For now it will have to be the decorations and 2.5 Gallon tank but hopefully shortly after we get "Buster" I'll be well on my way to winning the upgrade battle :-D

I'd really like to get a nice 10 gallon tank and do all live plants. I absolutely love the look  That's my goal! But for now what do you recommend for water changes?

EDIT: I forgot I wanted to ask you about the pH levels of the water the Bettas come in. If mine is obviously very high and the water they've been in for who knows how long is low, is there anything I can do other than just move them over? I've read it's very stressful.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

For now, I recommend daily testing and providing necessary water change (one of them being 100%) to keep that ammonia down. Again if you can get your hands on some spring water, you could dilute your tap water so it doesn't contain as much ammonia.

I wish you great luck in your battle, soldier! 10G planted tanks look beautiful!

As for acclimating pH, (and everything else), the key is to do it slowly. What I do is:
1. Empty out the cup with your new friend in it about 50% into a bin/bucket (don't let him fall in)
2. Float the cup in your tank, every 5 minutes add a small amount of tank water until the cup is full.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until the blue water appears clear or mostly clear.
4. When ready to introduce him, slowly fill the cup up back to the top then slowly tilt the cup until the mouth of the cup is horizontal in the tank. (you must do this slowly otherwise air will be captured and will cause a vacuum, potentially scaring your fish)
5. When the entire cup is in the tank, slowly pull up the bottom of the cup, so you rotate the mouth of the cup down, to about a 45 degree angle. Slowly jiggle the cup to coax the guy in. Careful not to pull the cup OUT of the water, or you will get a vacuum again and the water will rush out along with your betta.

If he immediately swims into the tank when the cup is in the horizontal position, great! You can just take the cup out


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Couldn't have asked for better instructions  Thanks! That's exactly what we'll do!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Orsini, A 2.5 is a great little tank for a betta. I have two of my current bettas in 2.5 and they love them. So take your time upgrading - you may prefer the smaller tank! In regards to water changes, you'll want to do water changes 3x a week. Personally I do 100%, but many, many folks here reccomend 50% for the first 2 and then 100% for the last change. I do 100%, but only because my two bettas poop like machines so their water gets super dirty really fast. I messed up one week and only changed 2x and my ammonia was at 1.00ppm!!! In regards to acclimation: This is the most important part. Even when you do water changes. First, you'll want to float your new betta in their cup, in your new tank. They'll need to stay there for at least 15 minutes. Then you'll want to start adding a little bit of new tank water to their cup. Do this every few minutes. What you're doing, is you're getting them ready for the temperature change as well as the new water parameters. I do this for a *minimum* of 30 minutes when I get a new fish from a store. Be sure and keep the cup he comes in too. I use mine when I do water changes - I just scoop them out and place the lid on. You'll want to use your lid because betta do jump! Mine "attacks" me every time I try to cup her! Even after water changes, you'll want to float your betta again. Slowly start adding water to the cup. After about 20 minutes I add them. Even when you move a fish from dirty water to clean water, the change in water can shock them. I believe there is a "sticky" in the Betta Fish Care section that talks about this process as well.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I never thought about diluting with spring water! That's great. I'm going to do that too. My tap has .50ppm ammonia and I never thought about dilution. Thanks Bahamut!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

:shock: That's a lot of ammonia for tap water. And I thought Sac. had bad water. Do you use a Brita filter or something for drinking water?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

@Orsini: You're welcome ... as flowers pointed out, you should do the same thing whenever you remove him to do a waterchange

@Flowers: Make sure you test it afterwards as well to make sure it worked! Check everything testable and acclimate slowly


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> Your ammonia levels are still going to show because Prime converts the toxic ammonia to non-toxic ammonium. You can add fish, but your readings will still indicate an ammonia level. No worries. The toxicity has been removed. Also, Prime does not alter your pH level and honestly you don't have to worry about that issue. My pH is high as well.* While bettas prefer a lower pH, they can tolerate a higher pH just fine. They can also live long lives in a higher pH environment. What is more damaging to bettas (or any fish!), is when we try and alter the pH and ultimately create an unstable pH environment. * It is very difficult to keep pH stable and it requires a lot of research to understand the products available. An unstable pH is much more stressful for the fish vs. simply living at a stable, but higher pH level. I have personally been advised to leave my pH alone until I choose to learn a lot more about true water chemistry and the effects of each pH product. I have also been encouraged that a stable pH is a good pH.


I have 7.8pH and I told that to my LPS employee when I was getting my first Betta. He flew into me about how high it was and how a Betta cannot take it. He then tried to sell me all these products. I told him "No thanks. Stable pH is healthier than fluctuating pH". He just looked at me dumb-founded... Pitluvs 1 lol 

But yes, this is true. My pH is high and my boys are loving it.



bahamut285 said:


> For now, I recommend daily testing and providing necessary water change (one of them being 100%) to keep that ammonia down. Again if you can get your hands on some spring water, you could dilute your tap water so it doesn't contain as much ammonia.
> 
> I wish you great luck in your battle, soldier! 10G planted tanks look beautiful!
> 
> ...


That's how I do it.. and for the love of me I can never explain it!! lol Mind if I copy this so I can post it if someone else asks me? I will give you credit of course!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

@Pitluvs: LOL go for it, I don't mind XD


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Sakura - My ammonia is horrible, isn't it!! I have loaded my two 10gals with plants and now it only takes about a day for it to go down. I don't have a brita, but I'm off to get some spring water.

Bahamut - Thank you for the dilution advice. I'll do all my testings and make sure it worked and that it's stable. I'll check my pH too, just to make sure I'm not creating any fluctuation by adding a different water source. 

Pitluv's - I know what you mean re: petstore employees! I have so much to learn myself and I've had my hair blown back by employees too. I wish they'd ask first before slamming us!

Orsini - You've created a great thread. Lots of awesome info for you and all of us too. We all keep learning - so don't ever give up!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Hehe, I was actually thinking of going through all of the posts and creating a summary or something out of it. So many questions were answered!

We have a Brita filter we use for drinking water, going to test that and see what it is. It doesn't remove all the good minerals too does it?

Could I use spring water to fill the entire tank? Haven't seen anything saying why not to use all spring water and I remember a few threads where people claim to use all bottled water for their bettas. 

I'm definitely going to build some kind of knowledge base for all of this information


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

The problem with only using spring water is that it lacks the nutrients necessary for healthy fish. While they can live in spring water, and spring water is lower in pH, the long term effect will be poor for your fish. A very close friend uses only spring water tank in their 30 gal and their betta got sick. OldFishLady immediately reccomended switching to conditioned tap. I can't honestly answer the Brita question, however, I'll throw out my best guess: The Brita uses carbon filters to clean the tap water. A standard aquarium filter also uses carbon to clean the tank water. I would assume the Brita would not filter out the minerals, etc. because I'm also assuming our aquarium filters do not filter them out as well. With all of that said, I would assume my carbon aquarium filter would also be filtering ammonia, but that doesn't appear to be the case in my tanks. Bahamut? Sakura? Pitluv's? Input in regards to carbon?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Brita filters and Spring water should both contain minerals. Distilled water is bad for your fish.

You *can* use spring water to fill the entire tank, but that gets expensive, and your tap water is not horrible. I would probably never use pure spring water myself unless I was in dire need of a total water replacement because my tap water is awful.

I will test my brita later today and post results.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Here's my overall results now including the filtered (Brita) and treated:

*Tap*
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.50ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

*Treated*
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

*Filtered & Treated*
pH: 6.8-7.0
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

The brita changed the pH of my water, I'm re-doing the tap's pH to see if I'm going crazy lol.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

My results are as follows:

*Tap:*
ph: 8.2
KH: Moderate 80ppm (4.47 kH)
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

*Treated*
pH: 8.2
KH: Moderate 80ppm (4.47 kH)
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

*Filtered only:*
pH: 6.4
KH: Low 40ppm (2.24 kH)
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

It appears that running it through the Brita Filter absolutely destroys the alkalinity, possibly causing the swing in pH as well.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Nope, tap is still pH: 8.2


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Baha, are you in my house taking the same tap water?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

>_>........NO


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Our tap is the same lol. Filling our tank up with filtered/treated water. Since the pH is lowered after the filter, is there any danger of the pH levels raising or anything? Or perhaps the pH being different after the Brita's filter starts to get worn? Don't want to stress Buster by changing his pH levels every water change.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

The thing I'm more concerned about is the very low alkalinity. That cause 100x more devastating problems than having a different pH


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## imapiratesavvy (Aug 3, 2011)

So the best bet is to just stick with treated tap water? (I'm the girlfriend in case you were wondering who the heck this imapiratesavvy person is lol).


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

We're off to see if we can find Buster  He's hiding somewhere within a few miles from us!


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Orsini said:


> We're off to see if we can find Buster  He's hiding somewhere within a few miles from us!


Good luck finding him!!! :-D


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

@Piratesavvy: Welcome to the forum! Yes right now it is best to stick with your tap water.

I hope you two find Buster


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*watching and reading with great interest* I barely understand most of this so I have nothing helpful to add but let me say good luck with finding Buster and welcome to the forum imapiratesavvy.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

We've found him hiding in the depths of the PetCo shelves. His little tub is quite nasty and the stickers all over it are all torn up, he's definitely Buster! We're setting up the new tank now. Can we put a drop of Prime into his tub to kill any ammonia that might be in it? There's some old fish food in it so from what I've learned in this thread there's definitely some ammonia 

EDIT: Okay he's in 8.0ppm of Ammonia, the chart doesn't go higher than that..!


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Congrats on your new boy 

Do you have any tupperware lying around? I recommend following my QT procedure mentioned several pages ago, just so he can adjust to your water.

Try adding a heavier dose of prime than you normally do to see if it will lock away all the ammonia


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Oh we're definitely going to use that method to introduce him to the new water, was just thinking for the meantime. Going to start the transfer process tonight


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Welcome to Buster!! Can't wait to see pics. Piratesavvy, welcome to the forum. Orsini, I have to share . . . I have a betta named Winston and I just moved him into his new 10gal divided tank today. I kept calling him Wilson by accident!!!!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

flowerslegacy said:


> Welcome to Buster!! Can't wait to see pics. Piratesavvy, welcome to the forum. Orsini, I have to share . . . I have a betta named Winston and I just moved him into his new 10gal divided tank today. I kept calling him Wilson by accident!!!!


lol!! :]


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## imapiratesavvy (Aug 3, 2011)

We started to add him to the tank and he is swimming around in his tub a lot!! Is this normal?


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Completely. He's scared and looking at all the water space he can't get to. He'll calm down.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

8.0ppm ammonia? :shock: :shock2: No wonder these poor bettas are in such rotten shape. Yes, definitely acclimate him slowly to your water, the change from bad to good will stun him. He'll be "What is this sensation . . . is it clean water? Could it really be clean water?" I'm so glad you found Buster and so glad Buster found a great new home.

Edit: Posted before I read all the other posts. >.<


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

If you float him while you have the lid on his cup, make sure the cup stays on the top of the water and doesn't submerge. Betta's breathe air from the surface and he'll drown if he can't get to the top.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Buster is in! He's a very curious little guy! He's checked out every little spot in the tank! He's finding little passageways through the plants that I really didn't think he'd fit through! We love him! He's quick too so it was hard to get a really clear shot!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Buster is BEAUTIFUL! An absolutely gorgeous doubletail with a cute face. He doesn't look very big.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I agree, very handsome boy! Excellent choice


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

A VERY handsome fellow your Buster is - CONGRATS on finding him!!! 

8.0 ammonia?? Can that be right? Shouldn't he have died in ammonia that high??? 
Glad he didn't, but WOW!!! Are you sure your test is accurate?


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Tested it twice! The tubs at our PetCo are full of SO much poop... they NEVER change the water these guys swim in and some have old rotting food in them. The tube was a verrrrry dark green! When doing wilsons his was clearly only 2.0 and this poor guy came in something darker than API's test colors could show. They might just drop Prime in it to make it harmless, but it's pretty nasty to see them swimming in a cloud of poop. A handful of the fish were dead.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm definitely going to find out how to complain though.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Beautiful Doubletail!! Welcome Buster! Great to see him. So glad that you got another fish. I have two Petco's near me. One of them has an awesome aquatic dept. and the other one is horrible. Just logon to their website and contact Customer Service. I've done it in the past regarding the same poor betta husbandry. I must say, the General Manager contacted me immediately as well as their Regional Director. The bettas now look better, but the rest of their aquatic dept. is still substandard. I won't shop there anymore, but at least their bettas received some proper attention. Even if it's probably short lived.


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## Lion Mom (Jun 14, 2010)

Orsini said:


> I'm definitely going to find out how to complain though.


Good for you!!!! Best of luck with that. They are, after all, in the PET/ANIMAL business and should take WAY better care of their charges than THAT!!! :-(

It's hard to believe that Buster's fins are in as good a shape as they are with ammonia that high. It's even hard to believe he is still with us all things considered, but SO glad he is! :-D


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

I was thinking of making a point by taking a bit of the betta's water at the store without the staff noticing and having them do their free test. Once they tell me the water is terrible and not to put my fish in it, I'll let them know that's the water their fish are currently in.

Maybe it's a bit mean but it really got me going seeing all of those poor guys in those conditions.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Keep an eye on Buster, just because he sat in such poor conditions for such a long time. He's a high risk guy right now. If you see any indication of fin rot or white patches just start a new thread in the Disease and Emergency area of the forum. We have a lot of experienced folks who can help you with any disease issues. Hopefully you caught him in time! In regards to Petco, I'd go straight to the top. I know the Manager over the Aquatics Dept. at my Petco was moved to another department the next day. But this was only because the General Manager was immediately involved.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Sounds good. I'll find the general manager's # and give them a call. Thing is, I went to two PetCo and 1 PetSmart stores yesterday and they were all the same. I think I'll be pretty busy!


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Buster has so much energy! He zig-zags across his tank all day long! He's such a ham! When he finds a bubble on the surface of the water he races to gobble it up. It almost seems like he's in a race with another fish or is playing hide n seek most of the day.

In all his excitement he's managed to tear in half his top fin on what I'm assuming was one of the plant decorations with little edges. I've since gone through and shaved every little leaf so they're all round. Is there anything I should give him to help repair his fin or will mothernature do it for me?

Going to enter him into August's contest


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## dragonflie (Aug 5, 2011)

Beautiful fish you got there! Absolutely love his colors. 

I did want to try to help explain a couple things (many apologies if this was already answered, I did try to look first).

If you're getting an ammonia reading straight out of your tap; while it is possible that it is straight ammonia, if you have an urban vs a rural water source it is likely chloramine that your kit is detecting. Cloramine is chlorine+ammonia.

As far as the bacterial additives that were mentioned, it is entirely true that they don't really work, at least long term. The ones mentioned are intended to be added with every water change, but the reason is because they do not contain the correct bacteria; they contain a terrestrial form that while it does process the waste products they do not survive for long...so once they die you need to add more. Using such a product also impedes the natural cycling process because the wrong, terrestrial bacteria end up out competing the proper aquatic ones, so they don't have time to establish. The only known working bacterial additive that contains the proper bacteria, and is only intended to be a one time use is Tetra's Safe Start. It is intended to seed your tank much the same way you would with gravel, deco, and/or filter media from another tank.

Again, sorry for the short novel I wrote.  I thought it useful information.

I'm glad to see Buster is doing so well. He is beautiful; and as most of the betta pics here do, they give me urges to go back to the pet store for more, lol.


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Here's a pic of the tear. Also guys, when I got Buster his fins curl at the edges a bit. Some people in another thread are suggesting it's from being in high concentration levels of Ammonia and are recommending a aquarium salt bath in a 1 gallon bowl. Of course you guys have become the only champions I trust, so what's your take?


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Most bettas from petstores have some curl somewhere in their fins.

Fortunately it's not generally associated with high ammonia. There is speculation that it is due to very hard water, but as from my observations of my OWN hard water and owning several tail-types, this is not the case.

It will either straighten out or stay curled 

Judging from the picture, he looks perfectly fine to me...


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## Orsini (Jul 24, 2011)

Okay  Anything I can do to help his fin grow back together? Lol. Oh my god, since I posted in this thread he managed to find the tiiiiiny space behind the filter (LionMom, has this happened to you since we have the same tanks?) and got stuck up behind it! I had this weird feeling and went to check on him and he was nowhere to be found! I remember wilson hiding underneath it so I looked there too... nothing! The lid was on... he's DEFINITELY inside the tank somewhere... only one spot left! Sure enough he's wedged behind the filter and can't get out.

I've heard of curious bettas but this little guy is so silly! He'll chase water droplets down the side of the tank and race after bubbles ontop of the water so he can eat them. He's hilarious


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I was told just to keep the tank SUPERCLEAN to prevent the tear from getting fin rot and other nasties.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Orsini, I'm not a disease/heal person, but Sakura certainly can answer your question regarding the tear. She's helped me so much in the past with health issues of my littlest betta. I would send her a PM to ask her advice. From what I've learned, Aquarium Salt (AQ Salt) is suggested for the tank. You don't have to do anything drastic, just add a little to the tank water for a while. My answer is obviously vague and Sakura will be able to provide you with proper dosage and time frames. Tearing a fin is like getting a cut on our finger. Keeping it clean will allow it to heal without causing an infection. AQ salt will accomplish this. In regards to your betta getting stuck behind the filter - bettas are CURIOUS! Check your tank and all of your decorations. Make sure you don't have any holes, tiny caves or small spaces where they can get stuck. I read a thread where a poor little betta got his head stuck in a hole in a decoration and drowned. They will wiggle in and out of every nook they can, so you'll need to adjust that filter or he'll get stuck again. If he can't get out and get air at the surface, he'll drown. Also, since he already tore a fin, you may want to consider silk plants. Any decoration that is rough on your skin will be rough on their delicate fins and cause more tears in the future. My crowntail has a tail a mile long so I switched to live plants just for him! Oh the things we do for our little friends


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Buster, Buster, you have the energy and curiosity of a puppy without the mess.  He sounds like so much fun to just sit and watch for an hour. One thing you might do is stick a sponge behind the filter so he can't fit there. He's just so excited to have all that space to explore. 

If the tear isn't developing any black edges or he hasn't gotten any more rips, I would suggest just leaving him in the tank and keeping the water super clean. Since he's so new, taking him out and putting him in a new tank might just confuse and stress him. Bettas, especially super curious ones, get tears all the time. They heal surprisingly fast. AQ salt is good because it stimulates healing and helps prevent secondary infection but if you keep the water clean, you won't need to worry about fin rot. However, if you want to, you can also add AQ salt to his current tank since there aren't any live plants. Unless you got some since your last post.  It's 1 tsp per gallon and you'll want to do 50% water changes a day for a few days and redo the salt. But only if you feel it's necessary. I think he looks okay, though. One of my VTs had a tear similar to that in his dorsal and it healed up nicely without extra help.


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