# Bloated Betta, Treated With Maracyn, no luck, now onto Parasite?



## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm sure you've seen my postings before about my betta who's been bloated since about Sept/Oct. Since December I've noticed he's gotten more bloated. He isn't AS lethargic as he was but still sinks to the bottom of he doesn't use a lot of effort to stay to the top. The bloat isn't as bad but somedays it's worse and then the next day it will be fine. Also his body has a slight red sheen to it. I treated with Maracyn/Maracyn II for a total of 10 days now (5 days, about a week, then another 5 days) and 2 tsp epsom salt a day with no changes really.

I was advised that if this didn't work to move onto something that treats parasites. I wasn't able to find the anti-parasitic food but I picked up Tetra Parasite Guard fizzy tablets that treats internal and external parasites. Should this be my next course of action? Should I combine it with Maracyn or Epsom salts? I've noticed he's gotten more stressed since I upped the epsom dosage to 2tsp instead of 1...should I cut back?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Remind me.. is he still eating? If so, is he pooping daily and what does the poop look like?

I would not use that medication. It contains an ingredient called Dflubenzuron that as far as I can tell is not an actual med but a restricted use PESTICIDE known to cause cancer.. Not something I'd be giving to my fish. Also if it's parasites it's internal and would need to be fed. They say it works internal but truth it is the meds are not absorbed through the gills and count on water gulped by the fish to treat and so as a bath it's not very effective. Also quite possible it's still bacterial and resistant to Minocycline, but that would depend on the other symptoms.. like what the poop looks like and if he is flashing/darting at all.

Assuming he's eating what you're looking to get is Metronidazole and Focus by Seachem and mixing up your own antiparasite med. You can either use treated aquarium water or garlic guard by seachem (100% garlic extract). Take one measure each of the Metro and Focus into some of the liquid and soak the pellets 10 to 15 min. Feed two twice a day. Good pellets for this are Hikari because of the high wheat content but others will work too. NLS will not work as they don't soak at all and sink within seconds of soaking. You have to mix up fresh each feeding.

If you can't find this you might be able to use General Cure by API as it contains both Metro and Prazi and should both be safe to feed as the Jungle stuff contains both of these ingredients together. Mix up the same as above.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

He's eating 4 pellets a day and pooping fine. His attitute has changed in the past 2 weeks...he's a lot more skittish and when I feed him he literally jumps out of the water to get the food.

If there's any possible way could you link to these medications? Because when I search for medications I come up empty handed.

I actually bought general cure by API before I bought Maracyn and Maracyn II and was told by someone on here...I don't remember who...that it wasn't going to treat any of the symptoms. 

This whole mess is just so complicated. It seems like nothing is working and it's so hard to get a hold of the medicine I need.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

Okay I have almost had more than I can handle with this boy  Since starting his 2nd dose of Maracyn things have went from a standstill to worse. He's MORE lethargic now and the medicine is dosed with water in a small plastic tupperware container which now has black crap floating in it and I don't want to put that in the tank. Now he's laying around more than usual, a little more bloated, and just overall worse looking since I started the second round of Maracyn. The only thing I did different was instead of 100% daily changes I did every other day. I just changed his water and the only thing I added was 1 tsp epsom salt. I just don't know what to do. This is getting so complicated


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

The medication should have been mixed up fresh and then emptied every day, so I'm a little unsure about this black mess you're describing.. You haven't been reusing the same mixture over and over have you? It will have lost its potency after 24 hours and been worthless somewhere between that and 48 so you would have only teased the infection and possibly built a resistance.. Also you predissolved the salt before adding right?

If he's not getting better on Maracyns then something else is needed. You should have seen significant improvement after the first round, even if a second was needed if it was the right med. Focus on trying to find Maracyn Plus or Kanaplex and Focus by Seachem. If you can't find it you'll have to speed order it online and hope for the best. You can try feeding the Maracyns in the meantime. Did I tell you how? Use a small amount of treated water and put a packet of each in the mixture. Soak the pellets for 10-15min and feed 2 twice a day. The only pellets I know for sure wont' work for this are NLS. Hikari works particularly well because of the high wheat content they soak a lot up.

General Cure works on parasites only. If he has internal parasites his poo should be abnormal and if its external you should be seeing signs of it. You are describing signs of a bacterial infection that has reached the point of dropsy and possibly septicemia (red sheen).

ETA: Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know why one would suspect parasites if he's eating and pooping normally. That's pretty much the symptoms of internal parasite infection. And if it was external you'd either see it or he'd be flashing or something.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Parasites he will be skinny since internal parasites will be taking nutrients away from him. 
Large extended abdomen doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing- I have a boy who is about a year and a half who looks to be bloated, but isn't. The lethargy could be from the water temp, and quality of food he is eating.

Over medication could also cause more problems then the original complaint. What was going on with him to make you put him on all those medications? 

My recommendation? 

Place him in his tank, make sure the tank has had a water change recently though- test if possible, make sure the temp is 78-80*F and see how he does. Only thing in there is water conditioner. Make sure the filter is baffled or on low setting if you have one and see how he does. 

I have helped quite a few people who have medicated their fishes for weeks with all sorts of things.. to end up that their fish become healthy and normal when taken out of it. Their little bodies aren't designed to handle the harshness of the medications for any length of time.

Epsom salt is gentle enough on them.. but since you say he is having normal bowel movements, then there is no need to use it- it won't make his belly size go down since it isn't a blockage of sorts.

High protein variety diet will help keep him regular and healthy so no Epsom would be needed.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

OP already stated the betta was pine coned in a previous thread.



> 3/4 of his body have like doubled in size and his scales are pineconing.


The conservative treatment you suggest will be lethal and dropsy always requires epsoms and some type of med. Please know the problem before you make a suggestion as the OP doesn't know enough to understand you're just making a suggestion from lack of knowledge. 

I believe at this point it has to be bacterial in nature because his poop is normal. Sometimes dropsy is caused by a parasite but this is generally GI dropsy or in a case where a parasite infection leads to an opportunistic secondary bacterial infection and this is what eventually leads to dropsy (or visa versa but in both cases the bacteria is causing the all over swelling).

It's very possible it's resistant to the Erythromycin and Minocyline or also that they're not being dosed properly so I'm trying to see how they're being mixed/dosed and also looking to move to something stronger.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi danifacetastic, I'm so sorry you're having such difficulty with this boy. 

When you dosed the Maracyns, did you mix it up using the 5 cup method? This is the ideal way to mix up meds for treatment in a smaller tank. 

5 cup method:
Get a container or jug that can hold 5 cups of dechlorinated water. Add the dosage of medicine to this and mix/shake well. Use 1/2cup of the medicated water per 1 gallon of tank water. So if the tank your boy is in is 1 gallon, pour 1/2 cup of the medicated water in. If it's 2 gallons, pour 1 cup in etc. 

Is he still in epsom salts as well? If not, I strongly recommend you put him in 3 tsps per gallon. 

Go ahead and stop usage of the Maracyns. One of the medicines, minocycline, can cause kidney damage if used too long and I'm beginning to suspect this may be the case with your boy. As kidneys are damaged, fluid builds up and causes the bloating/pineconing symptoms of dropsy (also known as ascites). This would explain why he has bloated further. 

If he looks very bad, you may need to consider euthanasia. As OFL says, you need to do what is right by the fish.

I'm sorry things look so grim right now.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I think they used the tablespoon method but idk. I told them to spoon out 10 tablespoons of water and add a packet which treats 10 gallons. Then spoon out as many tablepoons of the mixture as gallons in the container. This effectively cuts the meds into 10ths which are easily distributed to the gallons. What you have described cuts the meds the same way but uses more water to dissolve.

5 days on Minocycline isn't going to cause kidney damage and this is one of the few meds that can actually cure dropsy. Doing nothing will definitely cause him death so while there is some risk it's not really one that should be considered. He was bloated and pine coned before treatment started which is why he's being treated and unfortunately it was all they could find of the possible meds that could cure it. Kanaplex or Maracyn Plus would have been better choices but they couldn't find them.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

But he hasn't been on mino for 5 days, he's been on it for almost 10. 

Also, since efforts to medicate have failed, including a second course of Maracyns, I am also considering that the cause of his bloating and pineconing is not a disease as originally suspected but in fact a tumor or internal growth. Is it possible for you to post a pic of him, Danifacetastic? I may be able to tell from a pic if it is a tumor or not.

If it is indeed a tumor, there is nothing you can do but ensure he is comfortable or humanely euthanize him.  

In the meantime, Danifacetastic, if you want to continue to try and treat him, then look for Seachem Kanaplex. You will almost certainly need to order it online and you can get it here:
www.kensfish.com $5.95 for 5g (all you need) and shipping costs/time which varies depending on the method you choose.

If you do choose to pursue treatment and you order the Kanaplex, I again recommend taking him off the Maracyns and keeping him in only 3 tsps of epsom salt. His body WILL need a respite from the medications he has been on before he is treated with such a stronge med as Kanaplex. 

I am also going to ask OFL what she thinks, as she has seen many cases over the years and may also be able to tell if this is dropsy or a tumor. I was and still am hoping very much it is not a tumor.

Hang in there.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I went back on the thread to refresh my mind.. He was on it an initial 5 days and was improved to about 50% but then the meds were discontinued before he was fully well. He chose to redose after a full week of no meds instead of trying to get another med or do an immediate second round in which case it looks like it only made the strain resistant and isn't working for the second round at all, which is unfortunately what I cautioned against initially. You just can't not treat a week in the case of dropsy and that half improvement break from the meds only tends to make it more resistant. 

A tumor or growth would be a localized bloat. A full body swelling as was described is not a tumor and the Maracyn wouldn't have initially taken it down so much. Sorry.

ETA: I also still don't know if it was mixed up fresh each time but black gunk growing in the mixture comment made me think it was saved and reused over and over in which case all he really got was one good dose of the stuff, unfortunately. But I agree at this point that the Maracyns probably aren't going to work anymore for whatever reason.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Unfortunately, for some people, obtaining meds is a difficult and expensive process. Some people don't live near pet stores that stock many meds or can't afford them. Danifacetastic has done the best she could under her circumstances and has tried for a long time to treat her betta. 

The treatment of dropsy is always a tricky matter and each case must be treated individually as the cause of the dropsy symptom may not be the same as the last case and may not respond to the same medication, treatment, or length of treatment time. Many different diseases - not just internal bacterial infections or internal parasites - cause symptoms of dropsy. Some diseases can be treated in a short amount of time, some cannot. As hobbyists without access to scientific/medical equipment, we are often treating what we guesstimate to be the cause of the symptoms and we could be guessing wrong. 

This is the hard part about treating sick fish of any kind.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

callistra said:


> OP already stated the betta was pine coned in a previous thread.
> 
> 
> 
> The conservative treatment you suggest will be lethal and dropsy always requires epsoms and some type of med. Please know the problem before you make a suggestion as the OP doesn't know enough to understand you're just making a suggestion from lack of knowledge.


I have been away for a few weeks, so with no link and no prior knowledge, I based my opinion on what was stated on this thread alone. Why I asked what the medications were for. If I had known the condition then I wouldn't of made the mistake I had  Spent most of my time on this section of the forums, need to get back into the swing of things.

I wish the OP my best, as mentioned I wasn't here for her other thread and with Sakura here, OP is in good hands.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Danifacetastic, if you can post a pic of him that would be very helpful in diagnosing him because he could have a tumor, bacterial issue, or even fatty liver. In the meantime, here is the advice OFL gives:

I would get the fish on high dose of Epsom salt 3tsp/gal, tannins and partial water changes-in a small bare QT with plastic wrap on the top to retain heat and humidity....starting with 25% every 15min for 1hour using some premixed treatment water to get the fish acclimated and then the next day start 50% daily for 3 days and on day 4 100%..repeating this schedule for 14-20 days....tannins need to be really dark amber...temp 77F-you don't want that too high with a compromised fish....

Stop usage of the Maracyn combo immediately and start on OFL's instructions. For tannins, you can use Indian Almond Leaf or clean dried oak leaves crumbled into the water.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

Sorry for not updating guys. Thank you so much for all the help and thought. When I was treating him on Maracyn I did reuse the mixture because I didn't know I was supposed to make it fresh everyday because that'd waste a lot of medicine. I don't think it's a tumor because it IS a full body bloat. And I'm not sure what a tannin is either. I'll get a picture up in just a few minutes...he's hard to photograph though because he lays in the leaves.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

Do you guys think since I wasn't using the Maracyn effectively that I should try using it again but making the mixture fresh everyday? I had no idea that I couldn't store it. can someone help me on to how to make the mixture without wasting it? Because if I use the tablespoon method I'd be using a whole pack (10 gallons worth) every day.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

And with the leaves I've been able to find them on Ebay but it'll take 2 weeks to get here? Should I go ahead and order? What should I do until then?

And with OFL'S water change schedule...do I start over on day 5 or keep doing 100% water changes from days 5-20?

Sorry for all the trouble guys


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Yep that's your typical dropsy, not an isolated tumor.

I'm really sorry nobody mentioned it needed to be mixed up fresh each day 

Since he never actually got even half treatment with Maracyns yet you may still be able to treat with it. Everything past the first 24 or possibly 48 was worthless anyway and since you say a 50% improvement in just one dose it was probably the right med and would have worked with proper administration. 

However, at this point it is a concern that the strain has become at least partially resistant as the way you administered it has a tendency to do that.. Over-medicating is really not a concern at this point since he's hardly had anything. So.. I would still suggest trying to find a different med but it's not possible at all then treatment with Maracyns, mixing up fresh each time, should still be your best bet. Tannins and epsoms aren't going to cure dropsy, but it could buy you extra time for the treatment to work. This combination will help pull the fluids off him so that the meds have time to cure him and the tannins will help reduce stress as well as possibly boosting his immune system, but again, he's not just going to fight this off on his own. I have never seen or heard of a fish coming back from dropsy without actual treatment. Also, I really don't think waiting 2 weeks is going to work for him. You can overnight stuff from Amazon.com or other fish stores but it is expensive, so if that's not an option then I would give the Maracyns mixed properly this time a shot as it would be his only shot unless you can find another med, but it's your call.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You may have some luck with Furan-2 as it is very different from the Maracyns so shouldn't have any resistance and is made by API so it should be pretty easily found.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

How can I mix up the Maracyn without using an entire packet every day?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Without medical tests there's no way to say for certain that he does or does not have a tumor, growth, or bacterial infection. As I've stated before, the symptoms of dropsy can be caused by many diseases. 

Danifacetastic, I'm sorry that you're getting some conflicting advice here. Two many brains working on the same problem.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Maracyn and epsoms don't work on tumors so the fact that it was reduced by 50% proves it's not a tumor. Also tumors don't cause the entire body to swell evenly. It would look like a distortion in a particular area.

You have to use the entire pack every day. I'm sorry you can't save more but think of it as if you were treating a 10g tank. The meds are designed to be used as a full pack.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

What if I used like half a pack or so?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Trying to eyeball spitting up the packet is guess work and you may not be properly dosing him, especially when you're trying to do it for something like 1g that would require you to eyeball breaking the packet into 10th. The water way is the only really good 100% way to assure he's getting the proper dosage as both under and over medicating can be serious (in the case you undermedicate and then don't fully resolve the infection and lead to a for sure resistant strain) to lethal (if you overmedicate too much). Also your specific half a pack would be for 5 gallon so in your 1g you'd be way over-medicating and probably kill him.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

I couldn't use half a pack with 5 tablespoons of water? What would be the difference between that and a whole pack in 10 tablespoons of water?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Internal tumors can cause a full body edema-it depends on what kind of tumor and its location-when pressing on internal organ or involve the kidneys they can cause S/S of dropsy...

Dropsy is not a disease-but a sign/symptom of many different ailments that can infect our Bettas.

Epsom salt can help the S/S by reducing the edema-it also has antibacterial/fungal properties that can be helpful in some cases.

You also don't want to confuse bloat, dropsy and normal enlarged abdomen and treat needlessly and causing other problems due the the treatment itself

From my understand this Betta has been symptomatic for at least a month and if this was a bacterial infection that caused the dropsy-I would suspect that the Betta would have went into system failure by this point....

Maybe it is my monitor-but I am not seeing a full body edema or scales sticky up-with typical dropsy....but it could be my monitor and I just can't see it well.....To understand-he is still eating, swimming, responding to you and otherwise acting like his normal self-except for the enlarged abdomen and/or body edema/swelling...correct.....

With use of multi antibiotics, over treatment, incorrect treatment, use of the wrong antibiotic, treatment in hard water and high pH, over exposure to light that can altar effectiveness of antibiotics- you run the risk of not only creating resistants, the fish becoming toxic-but destroying good bacteria that help keep bad bacteria controlled that can further compromise antibody development of the Betta itself.....not all bacteria are pathogenic or a problem-you also have bacteria that will always be in the tank normally that when the Bettas immune response is compromised can become pathogenic.....

While I am not critical of those that choose to use antibiotics-personally I do not use them nor do I advocate their use-due to the host of reason why they often can do more harm than good-especially when you don't have a firm diagnosis-which is something that can not be done over the internet...diagnosis will only be a "Best guess" at best based on the information provided and then following treatment recommendation....never a guarantee of a good prognosis when dealing with so many different factor.

Understanding most common ailments, treatment, fish biology, anatomy and physiology, following good husbandry practice to prevent issues, the power of observation and deductive reasoning can help with-prevention, diagnosis and treatment recommendation.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

danifa, eyeballing is not a perfect measurement. It's a rough guess and you risk the above.

OFL are you saying that you have a history of treating dropsy on multiple occasions with no meds? I'm trying to clarify because that's what I got from your reply. I have never heard of dropsy being cured without treatment. Personally, I have -never- lost a fish medicating but I have lost a fish trying to treat naturally. Imho, the people who lose fish with medication do so because they either over or under medicate, or mix meds which can't be mixed, etc like you said above. But seldom to never in cases were meds are properly dosed and monitored. I also believe there is a place for natural treatment but I also -know- there are conditions which cannot be cured without medication, and as far as any experience or reading I have ever done dropsy is one of them. You're right, it's a symptom not a disease, but it's a typically symptom of an infection of some type, unless the betta is just so old that organs have begun to fail on their own. While in theory I know this is possible, I've never seen it. I suppose the tumor could, in theory, push against the kidneys causing this but again if it was a tumor you would not see a 50% fix with meds. Meds don't fix tumors. The fact that it is responding to treatment at all means it's curable and the fact that it responded to Maracyns means it's almost certainly bacterial.

danifa stated he's becoming increasingly lethargic, lying around more, and bloating more and looking worse as of recent. They've already been doing 100% daily or every other day changes.

I'm sorry but it is your monitor. I see the all over pine coning fine on mine, but I am using a high end CRT configured for photo editing so I don't know what others are seeing. The betta is dark. danifa might want to try to take brighter photos closer up for people who can't see it or try a top down shot.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

I tried a few different shots but that's the best i can get. He's eating, pooping and reacting to me but he's lethargic and can't stay at the top without a lot of trouble. He's been bloated this bad since Sept/Oct and lethargic since December.

And I understand what you're saying with the medicine. I know I'll have enough Maracyn 2...I have 20 packets left, but I only have 6 packets of Maracyn. Should that be enough?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

While I don't personally get a lot of sick fish in my fish room anymore-I do receive a lot of ill fish at my home to be treated from various places due to my reputation from the fish shop I deal with-sadly, some are my fish that had been bought-received poor care then referred to me for treatment...anyway...

Yes, I have successfully treated several different species of fish as well as Bettas using natural treatments that had symptom of full body edema, scale sticking out, lethargic, server ammonia burns...the list goes on......

As I am sure you know Callistra-many of our member are young and/or often can't afford expensive medication and/or have them readily available and/or understand the importance of proper use of strong antibiotic and/or how the water itself can sometimes compromise the medication itself as you and I do...not to mention some member may be allergic themselves to the products.

Often with sick fish it is important to treat as soon as possible and often no matter what you do the fish may not survive- Bettas can be delicate to a degree especially when you have poor genetic involved-by using natural treatments that most people will have on hand can at least give the fish a fighting chance.....

You also have the internet with a massive amount of information that can confuse new keepers-not to mention all the myths that are repeated so much that they soon are viewed as fact when they are still only a myth and this further confuses new keeper or a keeper that is worried sick and that may or may not be feeling guilty and like they failed their wet pet...when in fact...its not their fault...just bad information they trusted that caused them to do more harm than good......

I am not saying I am the expert or know everything...I base all my information on personal experience or experiments that I have conducted over the many years I have kept freshwater fish-on what has worked for me...this is why I often ask so many question to help me pin-point the problem since the fish is not in my hands and try to explain things in terms that a new keeper can understand...I admit....I do confuse some...but I also try to explain the why and what or rational behind what they are seeing-why I feel that is the problem and why I think something may or may not work......

Above all....I try to support the keeper, encourage them and teach proper husbandry so to prevent problems in the future with the understanding that sometimes stuff happens no matter what we do.....thats life and sadly death and illness......

Sorry dani...didn't mean to derail your issue....so back to that......

A better pic would be helpful...more light to see him better both side view and from above...since he is otherwise acting his normal self but has the full body edema with scale sticking up and now more lethargic...I suspect the immune response is severely compromised at this point-if not toxic....I would be really careful with the overuse the of the antibiotic-I wouldn't make any 100% water changes since you want to limit stress at this point as well.....I would get the Epsom salt up to 3tsp/gal and if you have a tannin source-add this too-you want a dark amber colored water-no more than 50% water changes at a time using premixed treatment water...but only if you want to go natural treatment...it will not offend me if you choose antibiotic....so don't worry about that......you need to do what you think is right by your Betta....good luck.....


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

Thanks for your help. I don't have any tannins and I'd have to buy them off Ebay or Amazon and they'd take over 2 weeks to arrive so I'm not sure how helpful that'd be. What water change percentage would you suggest? And I might try the Maracyn for a few days since he only got 1-2 good doses because during the first round of treatment he seemed to do a lot better within 4 days. If it seems like it's not doing anything after a few days I'll discontinue. And would aquarium salt help anything?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

AQ salt wouldn't help at all, unfortunately, and would actually make it worse. In general, the rule is AQ salt for external problems, epsom salt for internal.


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## cjayBetta (Jan 18, 2011)

aww good luck


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

OFL is very knowledgeable and has many years of experience. Why I base most of my treatments from her. I am personally under the opinion that the lethargy is from the medication and that he is in a small QT container, just as much as it is from the illness itself and would stick with just plain, clean water and possibly Epsom Salt to reduce any swelling. Basically, I'm sticking with what I originally said


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

I dont want to remove him from qt because he still has problems staying at the top. How much of a daily water change should I do aince I'm not doing 100 percent


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

50-75% I think. Enough that you remove a lot of water but still have plenty left over in the tank so that he can stay and swim around during the change. I do 90% and leave just an inch for the fish to swim in.


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## danifacetastic (Nov 11, 2010)

Alright thanks, I'll do that today.


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