# White spots on eyes



## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Housing: planted mini bow tank
What size is your tank? 2.5 gal
What temperature is your tank? 80F
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Beta 
How often do you feed your betta fish? 2 or 3 pellets twice a day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? twice a week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? water conditioner

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: don't have a nitrate test
pH: na
Hardness: na
Alkalinity: na

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? white spots on each eye
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? hasn't
When did you start noticing the symptoms? this morning
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? did a 50% water change
Does your fish have any history of being ill? no
How old is your fish (approximately)? I have had him for about 3 months

Hi. I did a quick look though the wonderful new stickies and didn't see exactly this situation. At this point, it doesn't seem to me that his eye are bulgy, but there is a white spot on each of them on the lower half. Diagnosis and treatment suggestions??? There are a lot of plants, but I can move him to a QT if necessary. Also, the heater in his tank is not adjustable, but I am in the process of testing the scale on an adjustable one and can use it if I should change the water temp for him.

Thank you for any help!

Kumi


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## BetterBetta (Jun 13, 2011)

Can you post a picture? Maybe that will help us figure out what it is


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

BetterBetta said:


> Can you post a picture? Maybe that will help us figure out what it is


I tried, but it really doesn't show well--partially my camera/skills. Each of them looks like a perfect little dot.

Thus far, he is swimming around, eating, and acting perfectly normal.

Kumi


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## BetterBetta (Jun 13, 2011)

So the dot is ON the eye, not below it or anything


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

BetterBetta said:


> So the dot is ON the eye, not below it or anything


Yes, it's on the eye itself.

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Is his eye kind of cloudy looking?


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> Is his eye kind of cloudy looking?


No, the rest of the eye is clear. I'll try again tomorrow to take a photo!

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. If it's not cloudy then it's not, uh, cloudy eye disease. And it's not cataracts. Stupid question for me to ask but are you sure it's not a reflection? Sorry, yes, I know, stupid question but at this point I'll ask anything 'cause this is puzzling. Do the spots move as if they might be parasites? And are the spots flat on the eye surface or do they seem like they might stick out from the eyeball a little?


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Pretty sure it's not a reflection--too constant, plus yes, I do think that they are a little raised. I think I'll go ahead and put him a QT tomorrow with some aquarium salt.

Thank you for trying to figure this out!

kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, when in doubt, QT and salt are always a good idea. If it's some kind of parasite, the salt should make them fall off. I'll do a bit of research, not sure if they can get ich on their eyeballs. Also, what is your tank's pH?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Usually when you have cloudy eyes its a sign of poor water quality and high nitrates can do this too....however, your husbandry is fine.....other causes are injury, eye flukes, chlorine burns, nutrition, old age.......not really any treatments except for the eye flukes...with eye flukes usually its the pupil that turns/looks white...except for age-the others resolve on their own with some increased water changes and improved nutrition....since the Betta is otherwise acting and eating like its normal self...I would make a couple of 50% water only changes over the next couple of days for now and observe......I only use natural treatment by supporting the immune response....google eye flukes and see if this fits what you are seeing in your Betta...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Also saw on the web that possible causes are lesions from ich and pH burn.
http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=39616


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Thank you to both of you! I don't have a pH test--had it tested once at a pet store and it was "fine" at the time, but I don't remember the specific number. I'll retest it--something odd could always have happened to the water. It isn't any worse this morning and might be a bit better.

I looked at the pictures of the eye fluke and it is possible that it is the early stages of that, but it seems strange that it would appear just the same in both eyes. And it's not the pupil. I also found a similar situation with somebody on here from a year or so ago. He didn't post a follow-up, but I have sent him a message to see if he has more information. 

An additional oddity has to do with the details of the search engine here and on some other forums--can't search on "eye" because it is too short and/or common! I found the previous post here through google. 

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

But he seems to be see things all right? I know it's hard to tell with bettas because of their lateral line sense but if he doesn't seem like he's bothered by it, that's good.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Sakura8 said:


> But he seems to be see things all right? I know it's hard to tell with bettas because of their lateral line sense but if he doesn't seem like he's bothered by it, that's good.


He doesn't seem to be bothered by it, but I thought it might be affecting his ability to see his food this morning--just at a particular angle. When he moved a little, he attacked as usual.

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good to hear. Hopefully this is an issue that will either resolve itself on its own or no be a bother to him if he has to deal with it for the rest of his life.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Unfortunately, he's doing worse. Yesterday morning, there was a hint of grayness in his belly. I'm following the steps in Dark Moon's posts for dropsy. I moved him to a QT with epsom salt and I'm also treating him with Maracyn Two. I'm gradually turning up the heat and will increase the concentration of ES today from one teaspoon per gallon to 1.5. After I moved him, I also saw that his pectoral fins are ragged. He has not improved today. I will be surprised--and ecstatic--if he makes it, but the very nice thing is that he is not suffering at the moment. He made a very nice bubble nest in his QT yesterday. I'm afraid that part of today's tasks will be to get ready to euthanize him in case it's necessary. I had goldfish years ago and one developed dropsy and I really have no desire to watch Kenpatchi go through that. 

Any treatment suggestions are welcome! About the only thing I can think of to do is to switch to a different medicine. I'll give this one another day and then if he's not better, I'll try a different one. 

Kumi


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## masshiimarro (Apr 16, 2011)

comrades! my betta has the same thing, in one eye though. no other problems at all. i hope your betta gets better!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Kumi, I'm so sorry to hear he's doing worse. It sounds like has developed dropsy on top of the white spot on his eye? I hope he pulls through for you. My thoughts are with you.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

I've treated Kenpachi with epsom salts and two different antibiotics. I have a reasonable guess as to what is going on. Given that when I tried to find comparable situations all of the threads "dead ended" without saying what the resolution/conclusions were, I wanted to post what I THINK is happening. In Kenpachi's case, the white spots on the eyes are identical. Also, looking from above, you can really tell that they are just on the cornea--they aren't something inside his eye. Because of that, I think they were caused by a build up of pressure. Also, he started to develop dropsy. My guess it that the dropsy has not progressed much because of the epsom salts rather than the antibiotics. I suspect that all of this was caused by organ failure. What caused the organ failure in the first place is unknown. The water parameters were perfect when I tested them, but who knows. I will say that he is from Petsmart, sort of like getting a puppy mill dog.... However, I also don't dismiss the possibility that I introduced something to the water by accident that was toxic. In any case, there are no signs of parasites. When the dropsy seemed to be getting a little worse, I upped the epsom salt to two teaspoons per gallon and that seemed to help. I think he's comparable to a hospital patient on palliative care at the moment. He's still eating well and swimming around, but he's losing his color. As long as he seems comfortable, I'll continue as I am. When he's not eating well or having trouble swimming, I'll euthanize him. 

While I am not happy about the situation, I at least don't have that frantic feeling of "if I could only figure out what to do I could save him!" The irony is that I now basically have a betta in a bowl!! I don't want to put him back in his tank because I can't count on it being a stable environment at this point. He has a "betta log" to rest in and I'll pick him up a fabric plant. I feel like I'm taking care of somebody in a rest home! 

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Poor Kenpachi. I wonder if he has a bacterial infection building up in him. Maybe you could try and find Jungle Labs Anti-Bacterial Medicated Pellets. They will help him if he has an infection but they won't hurt him if he doesn't.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear your boy isn't doing well but great job on the fast diagnosis. You definitely bought him some time. In this case it presented just like bacterial dropsy (cloudy eye/pop eye then gray belly) which is basically a kidney infection... It is possible that he got stressed somehow and his immune system was weakened as a result and he got infected. There really is no clear cause for dropsy. 

Is he currently on Maracyn II? You can combine that with Jungle's Anti-Parasite Pellets. The Metronidazole in the pellets is best for fighting off the bacteria. I've had a lot of success with the Maracyn II, metronidazole pellets and Epsom combo. You can up the Epsom dose to as much as 3tsp/gal. Try to get him those pellets while he is still willing to eat. Once they stop eating there isn't much that you can do... Good luck.

Sakura, do you know what they active ingredients in the anti-bacterial pellets are? I've never used them before.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sodium sulfathiazole and nitrofurazone, so definitely different than the parasite pellets. Anyway, I was hoping you could help clarify something for me, DarkMoon. You often recommend the anti-parasite pellets for cases of bacterial infections instead of the anti-bacteria pellets. Why? Just curious. My logic runs this way: parasites = parasite meds, bacteria = bacteria meds. You can see when it comes to meds I don't think outside the box much. ^_^


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

NP, it is a common cause of confusion! Medications aren't as clear cut as people think. Medications are often affective against multiple things. Most meds that treat bacterial infections also fight funguses and visa versa. Metronidazole (the main ingredient in anti-parasite pellets) is an effective medication for treating Dropsy. It is usually used for killing parasites but for whatever reason it has shown to be really effective against dropsy, which is a bacterial disease. It has to be given orally to be effective which is why Jungle's Anti-Parasite pellets are ideal. 

The anti-parasite pellets were actually suggested to me some time back when my goldfish Nori had dropsy, so I looked into it and found that it really does work. Vets even suggest it. Nori is alive and well today and was the first fish I had that survived dropsy. Since then I've found that Maracyn II, Epsom and Metro work really well, especially when you catch it early. I don't know if the Anti-bacterial pellets will work. By all means they should since dropsy is bacterial but even the vets say to use the anti-parasite ones! I'm sorry I don't really know the physiology behind it!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks, DarkMoon, that definitely helped clarify things.  But I thought dropsy is generally considered only a symptom, not an actual disease? (I personally generally consider dropsy to be a pain in the butt)


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

DarkMoon17 said:


> Is he currently on Maracyn II? You can combine that with Jungle's Anti-Parasite Pellets. The Metronidazole in the pellets is best for fighting off the bacteria. I've had a lot of success with the Maracyn II, metronidazole pellets and Epsom combo. You can up the Epsom dose to as much as 3tsp/gal. Try to get him those pellets while he is still willing to eat. Once they stop eating there isn't much that you can do... Good luck.


I switched from Marcyn II to API General Cure (or something close to that: it's downstairs and I'm upstairs). Really, just cause I thought I might as well try something else. I've looked for the pellets in two stores. Will try a third one tomorrow. Kenpachi thinks he's doing better than I do--he made a very nice bubble nest in his QT again today. I'll up the Epsom salt, too. 

Actually, I will look for either of the medicated pellets. Thank you to you both for your suggestions. DarkMoon, I've been following the directions you wrote up. SO much faster than a stressed out search through old threads. Thank you for doing that.

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That is the problem I've found with those pellets, is that they are hard to find. Neither my Petco or Petsmart carry them. :/ But if you CAN find them, they'll help.


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm glad the treatment guide was helpful! I think all the Petsmarts around me carry the pellets... If you can't find them, you can call your local veterinarian. Explain your problem and they should be willing to sell you 1 or 2 Metronidazole tablets. The main ingredient in API General Cure is Metro which is good but it is most effective when taken orally (fresh water fish don't drink water like salt water fish do). If you can get oral Metro (the pellets or tablets from the vet) that would be best but API General Cure should still do something. If he is building bubble nests then he must be feeling a bit better. That's very good. Is he pineconned at all?

Sakura- Well it's definitely a pain in the butt! It's #1 on my hate list lol. Dropsy (pineconning) is the result of fluid build up. The fluid build up is a result of a Kidney infection. Cats and dogs (and people) get kidney infections too but they just pee inappropriately and feel awful until you take them to the vet. Since fish live in water, the kidneys are important for controlling fluid volumes in the body. When the kidneys don't work right the fish cannot regulate its fluids properly and they build up and put pressure on the other organs resulting in pineconning (dropsy). So, dropsy (pineconning) is a symptom; it means that the fish has a bacterial kidney infection. Epsom relieves the swelling by helping fish release water, then the anti-biotic fights the kidney infection. The only problem is that most meds only work when the kidney infection/dropsy is spotted early since usually organ damage is not reversible. Baytril injections have proved to be really affective as well but you would need a vet for that...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

DarkMoon - thanks for the explanation.  So dropsy is basically a fish sign of what would be advanced UTI in mammals if I'm understanding this right, or in other words when the fluid build-up in the UT has backed up into the kidneys. (my mother has type 1 diabetes and a kidney transplant, so her kidney is hooked up directly to her bladder and UTI are common for her)

Kumi - I'm so glad he seems to feel better and is bubblenesting again. That's great news! Yay! :-D


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear that about your mom but ya, it's basically an advanced UTI that has attacked the kidneys. And they can be really stubborn... At least mammals don't have to worry about fluid build up, it just sucks in general.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, I think I finally understand the dropsy thing then. Thanks for the medical lesson, Dr. DarkMoon.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

*Update!*

I located the anti-parasite pellets last friday and have been feeding them to him. He keeps looking at me, clearly hoping I'll give him something tastier and easier to eat!

Kenpatchi is doing well, but still is somewhat bloated, with the graying around his belly. I'll try to locate a camera get some decent pictures of him.

The directions on the pellets say to feed exclusively for 3 days straight for 4 weeks. Any suggestions on what I should actually do?? Also, he's been in water treated with anti-biotics for quite awhile now, looks like 12 days. 

My uneducated inclination would be to say time to leave the antibiotics out of the water, but perhaps they should stay in if I should keep on giving him the pellets?????? In any case, I'll keep him with the epsom salts and IALs just arrived today. I had some rooibus tea in there in the meantime. 

I just saw another thread that I'll check about pop-eye....

Kumi


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm glad to hear he's doing better! How are his symptoms? Are his scales raised at all? How is his activity level? 

Continue the pellets until all symptoms are gone. You can feed him up to 4 of those pellets per day. Ignore the part about "3 days straight", that's for treating parasites. You are treating a bacterial infection so feed them every day. 

Keep using the Epsom and add the IAL. If his scales are raised then continue the Maracyn treatment but if they aren't then you can stop for now. Be prepared to use it again if his scales pinecone again.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

DarkMoon17 said:


> I'm glad to hear he's doing better! How are his symptoms? Are his scales raised at all? How is his activity level?
> 
> Continue the pellets until all symptoms are gone. You can feed him up to 4 of those pellets per day. Ignore the part about "3 days straight", that's for treating parasites. You are treating a bacterial infection so feed them every day.
> 
> Keep using the Epsom and add the IAL. If his scales are raised then continue the Maracyn treatment but if they aren't then you can stop for now. Be prepared to use it again if his scales pinecone again.


Thank you! Do I just toss in a piece of a leaf? Also, any suggestions on the best way to store the IAL? They're in a ziplock bag.

Kumi


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Yep, you can toss in a piece of the leaf. You want just enough for the water to turn tea colored. IAL can be stored in their zip lock in a dry area. You can also increase the Epsom to up to 3tsp/gal. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good luck, kumi, I hope kenpatchi gets better.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

Kenpachi is now spending most of his time sleeping/resting on the silk plant I put in with him. 3tbsp/gal Epsom salt, anti-parasite pellets, meds in water, tank warm, IAL. I think that's all there is to do, right? 

I took the time to see what else is going on in the forum--seems like a lot more dropsy than usual. You guys have been a great help all around! 

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I think that's about all you can do. Now it's a watch and wait game. I sure hope he perks up, poor guy. He's been battling this for a while now.

And yeah, there is a bad thing with dropsy going on, it's weird. And sad, too.


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## kumi (Apr 23, 2011)

*He's still hanging in there*

Kenpatchi does an excellent imitation of a dead/dying fish at times and then starts swimming around again. I honestly don't see him recovering, but every time I start thinking of euthanizing him, he improves some. He's still bloated (mild oranda shape rather than slim betta body), but he's eating and he can go down to the bottom of the QT looking for food and swim back up. He does spend a lot of time either in his floating betta log (*perfect* for a QT) or on the fabric plant. After a water change yesterday, I tossed a piece of IAL in and it settled on the plant rather than sinking. Kenpatchi slept on the leaf last night!!! He seemed to do better when being treated with Macyn II rather than API General Cure, so I switched back to that. I'm also feeding him the anti-parasite pellets, but cheating a bit--I gave him two frozen blood worms for breakfast this morning. While I'm treating him, I also think of this as hospice care.

I am so happy that I have the IAL. It clearly is making him feel better even if he doesn't recover! 

Kumi


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It's amazing how they can keep going even when common sense says they should be gone by now. I'm glad he doesn't appear to be in any discomfort and the IAL is a godsend. If he doesn't seem to be suffering, then keep trying with the Maracyn II and the pellets and let him try to fight it off. Hang in there you two!


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