# Plants are Causing Popeye



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

My fish has had popeye for about a month now. I noticed it about a week after placing him in his new tank - the tank is fully cycled and water quality is not a problem.

Otherwise he acts very healthy. His color is great. He has stopped biting his fins and they have grown a lot. He is a healthy eater and normal pooper.

I tried epsom salt at 1 tsp per gallon for 3 weeks and it has not worked. For about the last week I have been feeding Kanaplex, which has not worked either. I wanted to use IAL but it hasn't arrived yet..

This tank is unique to me in that it is the first time I have added live plants, other than moss balls. It has *a lot* of elodea in it. It also has a regular filter, turned to low and is also prefiltered and sponge baffled. In addition to this there is an air stone placed under the heater to circulate the water, but it's controlled with two valves and turned into barely a spray mist.

Normally my ph is about 7.0-7.4, and my water has a kh and gh of about 3. However, I notcied after I was done cycling (a few weeks after adding plants), my ph had jumped to around 8.4-8.6 or so and my gh and kh had hit zero. I figured something happened during cycling, put it aside, did basically a 99% water change, and added my fish.

During my last water change I noticed this happened again.. 0 gh, 0 kh, ph had sky rocketed. 

I did a lot of research and found out that if there is not enough carbon dioxide in a tank the plants will convert salts into food for them to survive, hense lowering the gh and kh.. oh.. well, I guess that makes sense because my one little betta probably can't supply them enough CO2. I also read that the extra oxygen can cause the rise in ph, in spite of the lack of gh and kh.

I also read that excess oxygen and low gh/kh can cause popeye. 

Is this what is going on? I don't want to have to remove the plants.. but I got to say the 4 hours my betta spent cupped today.. his popeye seemed to go down a lot :S Maybe it was my imagination.. 

Has anyone ever had this happen before?

I'm afraid of injecting co2 because I don't want to cause more ph swings.. should I buffer my water higher so there is more gh and kh? I would have thought the excess epsom salts might have fixed the problem..

In his old tank he did not have these plants, just the moss balls, and he did not have this issue.. For those of you with planted tanks, how do you fix this?


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I have noticed that in planted tanks you do not need to do as many water changes. I once had a 150 gallon that was so balanced that I did not have to clean it for almost a year. The only thing I did was remove some plants as they grew too large. And replace water as it evaporated.

I did not know about the popeye thing. My suggestion would be to do less water changes and check parameters before doing such. You may need to just do a quick sweep of the top of the gravel and let it go with that replaceing only the water removed.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I would be worried about less water changes because the plants are already eating all the salts out of my water faster than I'm replacing them.. if the low gh is causing the popeye, less changes would make it worse..

It's also not really planted.. just elodea.. which is one of the best ammonia eaters, but I have no real nitrate eaters.

Thanks though 

My tank is 10g btw.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Callistra, I would remove him or the plants. Let him heal, and try again without as many plants. I have never heard of this being a problem, and would have never considered it.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It is possible, however, it sounds like you need a buffer to help keep your pH stable-crushed coral works well for that.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

That's crazy. I've never heard of something like like. Obviously I don't know as much as OFL, and she knows what's best, lol.

I agree with louisvillelady, though. My planted has managed to balance itself out. Personally, like Matt said, I would remove the fish to treat it. In the tank, you could add in a snail or something to increase the bioload for your plants to feed off of. Maybe let some food dissolve in there. There is a liquid additive I use for my plants called Envy. It's really great and my plants are super healthy, without risk to my fish's health. This way I don't have to add in a CO2 booster.

I doubt this will really be of much help to you. I hope it can do something for you, though.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I use Seachem Alkaline Buffer, which I think is basically baking soda.

How much crushed coral should I add?

Everything was totally stable without the plants. So with the crushed coral my ph, gh and kh will stop changing?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I can't answer your question, but I know that you're one of the most qualified people to treat a fish. What fish is this?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I know, Matt! I was really shocked to see this thread too.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

what is your substrate? there are certain substrate that buffer te gH KH...


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Merlin, my betta has the popeye. 

It's just standard black coated aquarium gravel. It claims not to effect chemistry at all.

I know my water is very soft, but it's very stable in all my other tanks that don't have elodea, so I just have to figure out how to give the elodea what it needs so it quits sucking everything I have out of my water.. I think.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

hmm... i've never had a problem like that.. not matter how heavily my tanks were planted...
My water is 2gh 2kh out of the tap...


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

And you've never had it drop to 0 before a water change?

IDK.. lucky me I guess.


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## sarahspins (Sep 5, 2012)

Mine have definitely never dropped to 0.. I have heavily planted tanks... but my GH and KH are much higher out of my tap.

I would suggest just using a GH booster to up your GH and increasing your KH as well... there's no harm to you fish or plants by doing that, and you can raise them quite a lot before you will cause problems. My Tap's GH is usually between 18-20 and my KH is usually 15 or 16... it's not a problem for my fish and hasn't been an issue for my plants.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Yeah I use Equilibrium and Alkaline buffer so I can definitely do it. I put in a little extra with this last water change. I guess that's a good first step.. I'll start increasing my buffers and such, but I'm still concerned about gh fluctuation effects on my fish. I wish I could add something so the gh and everything else won't jump around.. I really don't know why these plants are eating through everything so fast.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

callistra said:


> And you've never had it drop to 0 before a water change?
> 
> IDK.. lucky me I guess.


nope... infact I think my gh or kh (forgot which) was 8 when I finally did a water change in the 2.5g after 4 months of being lazy.... lol....


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You must have something in your tank that increases TDS.. like the kind of gravel or whatever.

His popeye is already way down. I'm doing another change tomorrow and I'm doubling his kh buffers and Equilibrium. Hopefully this will be enough.

Such an odd problem :S


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Nah TDS was only 100 or so 
I did have seashells in there for the inverts ^_^


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

That explains it.. Seashells will raise kh and ph. For this reason they aren't suggested for fresh water fish aquariums.

I would just make sure your ph isn't being changed.. but it sounds like it's rising quite a bit in between water changes. Lack of stability in this area will stress your fish and can make them very sick.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks for the tip  that was my old tank. ph was around 7.6 the hella kept it buffered ^_^ the move was purposeful as ai did not have any calcium clay back then and NYC water is quite soft. The cherry and ghost shrimps were much more sensitive than my betta so I adjusted water params i better suit them. shimps are all now in a half gallon and betta sent to the one gallon with nice soft water XD


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