# the betta debate



## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

Every time I visit the pet store or lfs I see the betta's in jars, floating or lying at the bottom  . The thing is their natural habitat is tiny stagnent puddles in asia :? . I think it is still rong though, they should have a propper heated aquarium.

What are peoples thought on this???


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

They should have proper heated aquariums with filters of a minimum size if 5g!!!!!

These fish are starting to be treated as badly as many poor unfortunate goldfish in their bowls.

They live in puddles in the wild,but these are shallow puddles rightenough,but they stretch for alarge distabnce, sometimes miles. There is also natural filteration in terms of plants and bottom dwelling creatures. So, no, it's not alright to keep themin jars - they will not live very long if they are.


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## bettamad (May 10, 2007)

They do live like that in the wild but they are at least free to jump from puddle to puddle, they are excellent jumpers! 

A small jar or cup is CRUEL because they are confined to a very small space. I think its disgusting personally.. just because they can "survive" (just about) in a small area, doesn't mean they should. 

We could "survive" in a small cage but we wouldn't really be living wouldn't we. No wonder the fish float or sink, they are living in their own filth!

How can we stop this from happening?


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## squiggles1 (Jan 29, 2007)

bettas have it pretty bad for a fish. they are sometime overbred, left in cups of slimy water beside other bettas, which stresses them out because they see each other and flare up constantly, and them people see this and think it's ok to keep them like this. Plus their reputation as fighting fish doesn't help them. Lately I've seen pet stores with bettas floating in tiny baggys in the water. i was told that it's just as easy to keep them in that as it is to keep them in a cup. a sealed baggy floating on the water?! how often do you suppose that bag water is cleaned or they're fed, plus how would you know if you got them all? when we were in one day we saw a beautiful smoky blue male in one of these bags in a tank with tetras (and about 20+ other baggies) so my husband opened the bag and let him out. next time we came in he was still in there doing fine. I do have 2 males in betta tanks, but they are decent sizes and they always have clean water, gravel and are always fed.


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## bettamad (May 10, 2007)

Those bettas in bags disgust me.. all they see is money and not living things in really really awful conditions.


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

I don't think all people who work at fish stores like it much either, many of them being hobbyists themselves. When I went to purchase my gorgeous orange/red Betta, the clerk asked, almost reluctantly, "Do you have one of these cups (pointing to the Betta Bowls)". I said "No, I'm not dooming him to a life like that. He has a home in my nice 20 gal". 

She said "Oh, that's so good to hear".

But they don't have any other choice really, they're told to keep them there, or they get canned. All about the $$$. Although I will admit some stores do take good care of their bettas in cups. A store near me called Super Pet has many employees who seem to be quite responsible and compassionate towards fish. They've never given me false information, and their Betta cups are always sparkling clean, with the Bettas looking very healthy and attractive. The whole practice is unfortunate but at least some stores try to make the best of it.

edit - oh and just for the record, there is no debate as far as im concerned. it's simply unacceptable, so it's not up for debate.


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## Rue (Jan 28, 2007)

Animals in pet stores can't be kept in ideal sized enclosures...or the store wouldn't have room for them...they're kept in holding containers...

...no one expects the purchaser to keep them the way they're kept in the store...

...but for some reason, no one seems to understand that the bettas in a cup aren't necessarily supposed to stay in a cup...

"But the pet store keeps them in tiny containers!"

Yes...how else can they keep them? Some pet stores will put the odd male betta in a tank of compatible fish...but there are way fewer tanks of compatible fish than bettas for sale...

I have no trouble with the small containers as long as the water is changed every 2 days and the bettas are feed and looked after...

I DO take issue with the betta bowls...esp. the miniscule ones...


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## daisycutter (Jan 4, 2007)

by puddles they mean monsoon puddles as in large patches of flooded ground during the wet season vases are for flowers or throwing at next doors cat after its shat on your vegatable patch for the 40th time not for keeping fish


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## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

yeah i would have to agree with MattD there is no debate it is totaly wrong. I hate it when their tanks are devided by glass, they try to fight through the glass and tire themselves out. it apporling.


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

There is another pet store which I am not impressed with. They used to have good selections of fish before but things had changed there since then. Bettas are placed in energy drink bottles and the water is hardly even clean and clear.:roll: Worse, they still cost twice as much as the discus.:dunno: Who would expect to empty his/her wallet to buy bettas kept in poor conditions?


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## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

Lupin said:


> Worse, they still cost twice as much as the discus.:dunno:



What they cost more then discus??? we are thinking of the same discus, arn't we???


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## Andyandsue (Jan 23, 2007)

The cups are cruel, and so is a bowl without a filter, plant and light.

My LFS (not PetSmart/PetCo) keeps their bettas in small divided tanks (they look like 2 gallons to me), attached to their main filtration system, with walls that are not transparent so there is no stress. They always look beautiful-they don't seem to have them too often because they only have room for 10 or so and sell out as soon as they are in. That is the way to sell bettas, not in 8 oz cups.


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## Rue (Jan 28, 2007)

Well...I'm for any holding system that improves on the cups...but I still think if the cups are maintained, it's not as bad as it actually looks...

...problem is...the cups aren't ususally well maintained...  

I'm also appalled at the current Wedding trend to have a betta in a bowl as a centerpiece...what happens to all the bettas after the wedding? :shock:


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## Lupin (Aug 2, 2006)

sean117Ply said:


> What they cost more then discus??? we are thinking of the same discus, arn't we???


We are. Problem is the pet store still thinks it's a good price. IMO, the owner should learn to venture to other pet shops and look at the differences between show-type bettas and ordinary ones. The ones they sell aren't even in good health condition.


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## bettachris (May 13, 2007)

i am very on the fence with ths issue, and the reason for this is because i feel that most people arent aware of both sides of the issue, and focus mosly on the fish side without understanding why.

here are the two sides.

side Alfs side) it isnt very economical to house bettas in ten gallons by themselves. or even split the tank. It doesnt really make any sense for them to do that. For example, space can become a concern and just cost, where as keeping them in jars etc... provide a way less expensive way to house bettas.

side Bfish lover) it is hard to see bettas in small tanks. However, not saying this is always 100% true, but most of the time, people who really complain about this issue, only have 1-10 bettas max. which is fine. So they can easily house a betta per 10 gallon etc... So that is why most* people feel strongly that this is wrong.


Also another key fact is most people who havent seen the wholesale side of tropical fishkeeping wouldnt know how bettas get here from overseas. When i import bettas, they arrive in litle bags with maybe 1-2 oz of water. i do have a picture,(but i am new so it will take time to get it up) i will post up that shows the way the fish are shipped.

My stand: over the 13 years, when i was focused in on bettas only, i owned around 500 males at one time, so you can image how impossible it would be to house 500 ten gallons around etc... i house my bettas in small tanks, but find no problems with it. As long as the care is there. 
of course on my yong bettas they have a long enough tank to grow out first.

um... i hope that i have enlightened this issue alittle bit.


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## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

i see your point bettachris, it would be silly to house them in big tanks, but the lfs almost take advantage of the poor little betta's hardy nature. you see them in dirty, stagnent, unheated water.


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## Rue (Jan 28, 2007)

...mass breeding, like LFS housing...won't allow for ideal conditions...

...there's a difference between the above and a luxury set-up for pets...

I like to give my pets the luxury set-up! Fun for me...good for them! :wink:


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

Though I'm not a fan of the small bowls that bettas get housed in, I've seen a number of bettas quite content in these small environments. I've seen several create bubble nests and such in the tiny bowls.

And, I am guilty as well of the rescue purchase, I bought a 12g tank for a betta from the LFS.


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

I'll admit, my purchase was half a rescue purchase. I wanted a top dweller after deciding not to purchase Hatchetfish. Immediately Bettas came to mind, and their ease of keeping and beauty sealed the deal. There were virtually no cons to buying him for my 20gal. Except I think he may have had ich, I'm currently looking into the situation.

I also understood that he would be getting a kickass home, which I believe he does quite like - exploring my tank day and night, only surfacing for air and food.


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## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

I had a betta in my 20g he was not happy until i put him back in the 3g fish boul??? I think they feel more secure in small places with room to move, not miniture jars with no room to swim.


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## bettachris (May 13, 2007)

dont get me wrong, of course it is always better to go bigger tank size and the best conditions possible, but it is important for people to understand why it does occur.


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

sean117Ply said:


> I had a betta in my 20g he was not happy until i put him back in the 3g fish boul??? I think they feel more secure in small places with room to move, not miniture jars with no room to swim.


I think this just goes to prove how individual fish are!

My betta was in a 7g on his tod and seemed happy enough, then I moved him to a 35g with other fish, and he's much happier now. He has stopped nipping his own fin (from what I can assume was boredom) and his colours have brightened up as well.


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## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

Julie said:


> Julie said:
> 
> 
> > I think this just goes to prove how individual fish are!
> ...


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## Firebelly girrl (Feb 7, 2007)

So it seems like some people on here keep bettas with other fish, correct? I know somebody who has a gorgeous betta, it has to a be a male because his fins are long and pretty, they have him in a pretty big bowl, so I don't feel bad for him. But I have a 20 gallon I just set up, and they seem like they don't really care about having him anymore so I was going to take him. I'm going to get a few bottom dwellers, cory catfish of some type. What fish for the top/middle do you guys have that they get along with and wont nip his fins? 
But one thing, when I go to take a pic of him, he flares just from the camera, is that a sign to not put him in another tank with other fish? lol he's funny. 
thanks!


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## Falina (Feb 25, 2007)

Firebelly girrl said:


> So it seems like some people on here keep bettas with other fish, correct? I know somebody who has a gorgeous betta, it has to a be a male because his fins are long and pretty, they have him in a pretty big bowl, so I don't feel bad for him. But I have a 20 gallon I just set up, and they seem like they don't really care about having him anymore so I was going to take him. I'm going to get a few bottom dwellers, cory catfish of some type. What fish for the top/middle do you guys have that they get along with and wont nip his fins?
> But one thing, when I go to take a pic of him, he flares just from the camera, is that a sign to not put him in another tank with other fish? lol he's funny.
> thanks!


Bettas, like was mentioned earlier are individuals. Some will not tolerate any other fish at all but most will tolerate bottom dwellers, and many will tolerate other mid/top dwelling fish as long as they're not too fancy that they are seen as a threat, for example gouramis or guppies.


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

They're tolerant fish, although I suppose it does depend on their individual temper. Mine has let my ghost shrimp hook onto his tail once and he was caught on it for several seconds before the Betta did anything. Even afterwards all he did was swim off.

I have 4 Cory cats and they seem to be just fine with my Betta, since when he explores the tank, he often wanders into their area by a piece of driftwood without consequence. 

They're very nice fish, and quite satisfying to keep, since you know they're in a good home, and they're on display nearly 24/7. If you can, try to give him some shelter at the surface. Not only will this help him feel safer, but it should provide a break in the current for him to relax in. Remember - Bettas aren't used to swimming against strong currents. I facilitated this in my tank by simply taking some plastic plants, broke them apart, and letting them float on the surface. They are kept stationary from the current by fishing line which in turn attaches to my hood.


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## leifthebunny (Mar 13, 2007)

MattD said:


> They're tolerant fish, although I suppose it does depend on their individual temper. Mine has let my ghost shrimp hook onto his tail once and he was caught on it for several seconds before the Betta did anything. Even afterwards all he did was swim off.


I added Japonicas in with my betta today for algae control and they climbed over him as they raced around the tank and he only seems slightly annoyed, but never did anything about it.


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## Firebelly girrl (Feb 7, 2007)

Gotcha! I wish a new betta species would come along, that had no agression but was as gorgeous as the originals  Eh?


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## squiggles1 (Jan 29, 2007)

we knew this person, who had bought a betta, but after a couple of weeks was bored because "it didn't do anything". I'm like what's it supposed to do?! This person was going to just stop feeding it. So needless to say we took him and he lived here for almost 2 years when he died of natural causes. I don't think it helps the fish that people see them flare up at each other. Then they think they're going to do that all the time. But I mean the fish wasn't entertaining enough? Ugh, ridiculous, What's it supposed to do, backflips? :x


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## MattD (Apr 25, 2007)

Which is the reason why oh so many fish die - people just stop caring about them due to lack of interest. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Rue (Jan 28, 2007)

...my CT and the 4 girls are in with mollies, platies, zebra danios, serpae tetras, corys, one oto cat, and shrimp...


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## sean117Ply (Apr 12, 2007)

I am real angry i went to the lfs and saw a poor dead betta just floating there, I told the owner. The next day i went back for some fish food and it was still there. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :x :x :x


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## soco1125 (Jan 5, 2007)

the biggest problem has got to be the severe under-education of the consumer. not only do the pet stores keep bettas in bowls, bags, and cups; they also sell "betta kits" which consist of a little bowl or tiny plastic tank and some rocks or marbles and maybe a plastic plant. when the store offers these things as legitimate housing for the fish, the customer trusts that this is all they need to do to care for their new "decorative pet".

and of course when the fish just sits there because it doesn't have enough room to swim around, they get bored with it and either dispose of it or stop taking care of it. if these people ever got to see their betta in a large tank, they wouldn't think it was the same fish. i rescued my betta from my sister who had it in a big enough tank, but was not caring for it properly. he's currently living in my 55-gallon planted tank with 10 debauwi catfish and has never looked better.

if you keep a dog in a little cage, you can get sent to jail for animal cruelty... but a fish isn't important enough to deserve the same protection? that's messed up.


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## Firebelly girrl (Feb 7, 2007)

soco1125 said:


> the biggest problem has got to be the severe under-education of the consumer. not only do the pet stores keep bettas in bowls, bags, and cups; they also sell "betta kits" which consist of a little bowl or tiny plastic tank and some rocks or marbles and maybe a plastic plant. when the store offers these things as legitimate housing for the fish, the customer trusts that this is all they need to do to care for their new "decorative pet".
> 
> and of course when the fish just sits there because it doesn't have enough room to swim around, they get bored with it and either dispose of it or stop taking care of it. if these people ever got to see their betta in a large tank, they wouldn't think it was the same fish. i rescued my betta from my sister who had it in a big enough tank, but was not caring for it properly. he's currently living in my 55-gallon planted tank with 10 debauwi catfish and has never looked better.
> 
> if you keep a dog in a little cage, you can get sent to jail for animal cruelty... but a fish isn't important enough to deserve the same protection? that's messed up.


I I for the last sentence!! lol!! it really is true! Do you have any pics of your betta in your tank? I would love to see it!


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