# unstable pH



## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

Planted tank with black betta sand using seachem flourish comprehensive, prime, stability, amguard and stress coat+. I use a 1/2 gallon milk jug with 0.1ml of each liquid to top off the tank in between changes. The 1/2 gallon lasts about two weeks with a WC in between. Tank is 3.5 gallon with a HOB filter with sponges and LED lighting, it is also near a window receiving indirect light. Started tank up from scratch in January and finished the cycle in March.

I haven't really tested my water since March. But I have been doing a 25% to 50% WC about every 7-9 days. Recently I have noticed my betta's tail start to show signs of fin rot. So I am going to try and treat it without putting him in my QT tank since I don't have a spare heater ATM. Last night was WC night and I decided to test the water before the WC. 

Here are the results using the API Master freshwater liquid test kit.....
pH = 6
High pH = 7.4 (there was no color change at all)
Ammonia = 0
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 40

So I change out 3 gallons and nearly empty my tank and this is what it comes up to....
ph = 7
High pH = 7.4 
Ammonia = 0.25
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 5

my tap is as follows which is why I use a cocktail of conditioners
ph = 7.2
High pH = 7.4 
Ammonia = 2
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 5

So after the pH came up I decided to check it tonight to see if it stabilized... I can't seem to figure out why my pH would drop that much in 24 hours. 
pH = 6
High pH = 7.4 (there was no color change at all)
Ammonia = 0.25
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 5

I added in some local rocks a few weeks back after giving it the vinegar test and getting no reaction then boiling several times. so I just took them out since that is the only major change I have done in a while. Any suggestions and questions are welcomed. I will do another 50% WC tomorrow to see if I can get the pH back up to normal.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Check your water hardness. Soft waters have no buffer and change pH. But bettas are low-pH loving fish. 6 is actually not unhealthy for them.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

I read that they can tolerate a broad pH range so that is good to know that 6 is OK with him. The reason I posted this is because during the cycle of my tank I never saw anything different than 7.2 and that is also what is coming out of my tap. so that had me concerned that something in my tank is affecting the pH.

We don't have any problems with soap or calcium deposits on our house water fixtures. we are also on city/county water so I never thought we would have soft water. I think I have some water test strips that I can check the hardness with back at home.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Depending on your hardness/buffer, pH can easily change >1.0 in a day as the plants breath, alternately releasing CO2 and O2.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

IMHO Stop dumping all the chemicals in your aquarium. It easier to work with your water chemistry that to change it. Test your tap KNOW WHAT YOU ARE WORKING WITH, An make very small changes one at a time. Test, test test.( by the way I'm a chemist) 

Rich.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

rickey, the reason I use so much is when I started cycling my tank I was and still am working with bad tap water. so I just kept with what I was already doing.

Today I used strips and my api master kit and here are the results.

Tap Water results using Strips;
nitrate < 20
nitrite = 0
GH = 75
KH = 40-80
pH = 6.8
Ammonia = 3.0
Chlorine total = 1
Chlorine free = 0
pH = 6.8
Alkalinity = 80
Cyanuric Acid = 0

Tap water results using API kit
pH = 7.6
High pH = 7.4
Ammonia = 1.0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5

Tank water using strips. I haven't done anything since the other night;
nitrate < 20
nitrite = 0
GH = 75
KH = 40
pH = 6.2
Ammonia = 3.0
Chlorine total = 0
Chlorine free = 0
pH = 6.2
Alkalinity = 40
Cyanuric Acid = 0

Tank water results using API kit
pH = 6.4
High pH = 7.4 (no noticeable color change)
Ammonia = 0.25
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Your KH looks pretty low. That might be why the pH is so low. But honestly, bettas love soft, acidic water, which is what it looks like you have! The only issue I can see is the ammonia.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Looking at the test results for you tap your tap water is likely treated with a Chloramine compound these release a lot of ammonia at dechlorination. So all in all your system and treatment regimen is doing a fair job controlling the ammonia. The unstable pH is a result of the low kH and the The large amount of ammonia the system is processing (reductive dechlorination) so the bottom line is you must either get rid of the ammonia or increase the kH to stabilize the pH of the two options increasing the kH is the most likely. The bad news is as you rise the pH the ammonia became more and more toxic. Got to love water chemistry.
good luck

Rick


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

With <7.0 pH your ammonia is mostly ammonium, not harmful. As long as your tapwater is also low pH you're doing fine. 

Rick is right about rising ammonia from dechlorination. (I forgot about that

Raising hardness/Kh allows you to cycle your tank--- nitrifying bacteria like higher pH--- while stabilizing pH at a higher value. It's easier than trying to soften water, IMO.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

here is what I gathered from all the responses

Flyby Stardancer thinks that I need to get the ammonia under control and I agree
rickey thinks that I should increase the kH to stabilize the pH but make sure that the ammonia doesn't get out of control because when the kH increases so does ammonia.
Hally thinks that I am doing fine. but since the tank was cycled and the pH has dropped does that mean it is no longer cycled?

did I interpret everything correctly?


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

InfiniteGlory said:


> here is what I gathered from all the responses
> 
> Flyby Stardancer thinks that I need to get the ammonia under control and I agree
> rickey thinks that I should increase the kH to stabilize the pH but make sure that the ammonia doesn't get out of control because when the kH increases so does ammonia.
> Hally thinks that I am doing fine. but since the tank was cycled and the pH has dropped does that mean it is no longer cycled? did I interpret everything correctly?


 That pretty much covers it. at some point you will have to deal with both problems(Low pH and ammonia). No the tank is most like still cycle but the nitrifying bacteria just do not work as well at a pH that is this low Your doing OK this is just part of it.

Rick


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## VJM (Feb 7, 2013)

In this situation, for your own peace of mind, I would switch to RO or distiller water with a remineralizer. Then you could quit with the cocktail of chemicals, and get exactly the parameters you want.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

Rick, if I step up my water changes to every 3-4 days would that help in any way in keeping the pH a little higher and the nitrifying bacteria a little happier? I thought I had it cycled back in early April and just kept up with the water changes and stopped testing the water. what would be the final sign of the cycle being completed?

VJM, can I use the remineralizer with the water I have? not sure I can afford the RO/distilled water that is required for upkeep since we are trying to get our spending in check and stabilized.


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## VJM (Feb 7, 2013)

If you are using tap, you don't need a remineralizer. I would rethink this and go back to just Prime. Your total dissolved solids must be pretty high.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

InfiniteGlory said:


> Rick, if I step up my water changes to every 3-4 days would that help in any way in keeping the pH a little higher and the nitrifying bacteria a little happier? I thought I had it cycled back in early April and just kept up with the water changes and stopped testing the water. what would be the final sign of the cycle being completed?
> 
> VJM, can I use the remineralizer with the water I have? not sure I can afford the RO/distilled water that is required for upkeep since we are trying to get our spending in check and stabilized.


The kH test on your tap water show 40 to 80 ppm you should be at 100 ppm for a nice stable pH of about 7. But we'll deal with the ammonia first. I would start doing X2 a week water changes and Prime. Test daily and use prime to control any ammonia spikes. When have a stable 0 on ammonia. I'll help you deal with the low kH 

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

well....I just looked at my test strips and they expired 09/2012, 02/2013, and 02/2013. Guess it's time to invest in the API hardness test kit.

as for the 2x week WC's is 50% enough or do I need to do more?


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

I myself would let the nitrate and pH test dictate when and how much to change 
Change whatever % it takes to keep the pH stable and nitrates @ <10ppm. Smaller changes would be better. When you go to the pet store to replace your test kits look in the bird dept for a cuttlefish bone, sometimes called a cuttlebone.

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

In my OP which was the last WC, I changed out 3 gallons and brought the pH up to 7 from 6 and the Nitrate down to 5 from 40. In less than 24 hours the pH dropped down to 6 again and the Nitrate stayed at 5. So do you think the small changes twice a week will keep the pH up when the last time it dropped back down in 24 hours?

I will pick up some cuttlebone tomorrow and I ordered the kit tonight.

Pre water change
pH = 6
Ammonia = 0.25
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 10

I changed out one gallon and added in 0.5mL each of Prime, AmGuard, and Stability. Here are the results after the tank was started back up and allowed to circulate for 10 minutes. I will post more results tomorrow evening after allowing the tank to stabilize

pH = 6.4
Ammonia = 0.25
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 10


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

There is no or little point in using Prime and AmGuard in the water change both detox ammonia The .25 ppm for ammonia is most likely false positive. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex give low level false positive readings. I personally consider Stability to be snake oil there is no such thing as a cycle in the bottle 

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

I have been using both Prime and AmGuard from the start since my tap has ammonia readings. Is using both really necessary?
ph = 7.2
High pH = 7.4 
Ammonia = 2
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 5

so during the next WC should I leave out the prime,amguard and stability all together? Or should I continue use of Prime only to condition the new water that is added?


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

You only need ONE water conditioner so its up to you which you use. Prime will detox ammonia. Stability is a BB booster, some say it works others say no, its your choice to use it or not.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

rickey said:


> There is no or little point in using Prime and AmGuard in the water change both detox ammonia The .25 ppm for ammonia is most likely false positive. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex give low level false positive readings. I personally consider Stability to be snake oil there is no such thing as a cycle in the bottle
> 
> Rick


Short of picking up an ammonia that does seperate testing for free versus total ammonia. will it be ok to always have the 0.25 showing up in the test?


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

You won't always get a false positive. Right now you are testing daily correct? And you are doing frequent water changes? Sorry, I didn't re-read the thread. My point is the water conditioner will only give you a "false positive" for 24-48 hrs after its been added to the tank. Water conditioners typically only detox ammonia for 24 hrs or so which means, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, the ammonium reverts back to ammonia. I personally didn't care which version it was because in my mind it would become toxic again so if my ammonia or nitrites were >.25 I did a 50%+ water change. Once youre tank is fully cycled you won't be testing daily but maybe once a week which means you shouldn't be getting a false positive & your test result should be yellow.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

InfiniteGlory said:


> I have been using both Prime and AmGuard from the start since my tap has ammonia readings. Is using both really necessary?
> ph = 7.2http://www.bettafish.com/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif
> High pH = 7.4
> Ammonia = 2
> ...



Ok so you did a water change yesterday after the WC pH was 6.4, ammonia was .25 (this was a false positive, common when API and Prime are use together)

Today, 24 hours later, water has gassed out pH is up to 7.2 and ammonia is up to 2 mg/L (This number is real) you are only showing a nitrate of 5 mg/L so a water change is not called for ( pH is rising and our cut off on nitrate is in the 20 mg/L +/- range) so you need to dose Prime or Amguard which ever you like they both bind ammonia but only one (I use Prime myself) 

Rick


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I like Shellie's explanation. I'd only quibble one little thing. The API test reads ammonia/ammonium. Nothing "false" about it; it's the nature of salicylate tests. Seachem's (Nesselr) test reads each seperately. 

But you can get the proportion of ammonia to ammonium multiplying this factor:


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Or you can use this chart: Ammonia Toxicity

This is a pretty good simplified explanation of how ammonia is converted. Temerature is a factor, too, but less important.

The reading is, of course, without ammonia-ionizing conditioners (Prime/Amguard). 

I agree with Shellie and Rick that you only need to use one NH3-detoxifying conditioner.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

rick, the information you quoted was from my tap and I forgot to include in my post. I have yet to test it today. Stay tuned for today's numbers.

also I picked up a cuttlebone today while at petsmart.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

This is from the email seachem sent me with this question


> Seachem's Prime conditioner will give false readings for ammonia, on both Nessler's Reagent
> and salicylate tests. The hydrosulfite salts in Prime reacts with the chloride ion that is part in the test reagents.


 According to Seachem after 24 hours you will then be able to test again and get accurate readings. What Seachem won't tell you is Prime is Sodium Hydrosulfite Na2S2O4. 

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

Here are my numbers from today and as they compare to the results AFTER the WC last night. The next WC is due on Friday night and I will post the results then.

also here is a link to my spreadsheet on my Google Drive

ph = 6.4 (same)
Ammonia = < 0.25 (down from 0.25)
NitRITE = 0 (Same)
NitRATE = 10 maybe 20 (can't really tell since they both look the same on the chart card)(same as yesterday)


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

thanks for the information shellieca and hallyx. that explains why the ammonia never drops right after the WC. Rick pointed out that I should wait 24 hours between tests and not right after the WC.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

They use Sodium Hydrosulfite to ionize the NH3 with a positive H ion from the water. The water wants it back. And that's why it reverts back to ammonia in 24hrs or so...less if the pH is higher.
Also why Prime smells like sulfur.

In any event, IG, you don't have an ammonia problem. Many keepers, myself included, would prefer having your water for keeping Betta (but not shrimp or snails).


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## VJM (Feb 7, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't put cuttlebone in your tank. You will just end up with a varying pH, which is worse than a stable but low pH. It also increases total dissolved solids. 

Part of what is protecting your livestock is the lessened toxicity of ammonia at lower pH levels.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

I most surely wouldn't try rising yhe kH/pH as long as there is any ammonia present

Rick


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

well, my waters ph varies, when most water comes straight out of the tap dissolved gasses usually co2 will effect what ph tests will read, it makes them a bit inaccurate, mine out of the tap is right at 7.2 but after 48 hours and all the gases are out of it, it jumps to 8.2, which really isnt a big deal aslong as you know about it, if I was keeping the more delicate species of shrimo/fish it would be but most fish will adjust to it, i just use peatmoss pellets and have drift wood in all of my tanks my ph in my tanks is as about 7.4 and since they are all planted I rarely have to do water changes bigger than about 10% to help the ph be more stable it is better to do more small water changes of 5-10% a few times vs doing big 50% ones


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

I haven't put any cuttlebone in the tank yet since Rick wanted to help get the ammonia under control first. so I am going to post nightly results until it the ammonia goes to 0

I feel comfortable sticking with 25% WC's which is about 1 gallon until i get the ammonia under control. I will test before the WC to see how everything is doing to see if a WC is even needed.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

pH = 6.4
ammonia = nearly 0 
NitRITE = 0
NitrATE = 10

if the tank keeps this up then I will not do a WC tomorrow night pending the results and will try to return to my normal 7 day schedule

I think I may have found out why my pH is so low. between WC's i have a half gallon milk jug with preconditioned water. It has 0.5mL of each; Prime, AmGuard, Stability and Stress Coat +. For the record that water was made before learning that I am overdoing it on the chemicals. the jug has been around for about 2 weeks stored under the fish tank in a cabinet with the lid on tight. I tested just the pH and there was no color change so that means it is about 6 or less. so that may be why my tank keeps dropping in pH because I use it to top off the water level between water changes. Guess it's time to stop storing the water and make some up as needed.


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Glad everything seems to be finally settling down. As for storing water, so long as you use a good water conditioner there's no need to store it. I have a 5g bucket that I fill right before a water change, add my Prime, let it sit while I siphon/vac the tank then add the new water. I don't do top offs but I only have one tank that really evaporates much, my 5.5g loses at least an 1" each week but even if I did top I would fill the bucket as required with the needed amount, treat it & pour it in.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Good Job 

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the time and patience of getting this resolved. I will keep posting results to make sure that the pH is coming up. if I test the water and the pH is still low I want to try and change out a gallon and see if the pH comes up. At the last WC the pH came up a little with a 1 gallon change.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

My API KH and GH kit came in today. So here are the results of the tank
pH = 6.4
ammonia = 0
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 10
KH = 1
GH = 3

As a comparison here is the hardness of my tap water.
KH = 2
GH = 2

So I am going to change out 1 gallon and check the water tomorrow night to give it time to settle in.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Okay yeah, a dKH of 1-2 is not enough of a buffer to keep a water's pH stable.

As another option of what to do to add a buffer, I saw a suggestion on another board from someone who tried literally everything with her tanks, and the one thing that worked was a bag with a little bit of crushed coral in the filter. It brought up the hardness slowly, and she could do water changes normally without shocking her fish. I would try with only a teaspoon or two at first, and then measure KH and pH after a day.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

well, after almost 24 hours here are the results. not much has changed which is a good sign
pH = 6.4
ammonia = 0
NitRITE = 0
NitRATE = 10-20
KH = 1
GH = 3

Rick. should I move forward with the cuttlebone or return it to the store? I was thinking of keeping it for the snails since the water is so soft and their shells need the calcium.


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## Flyby Stardancer (Jun 19, 2013)

Leave the cuttlebone in. Not only is it good for the snails, but it'll raise the KH to help buffer your water and prevent pH swings.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah crushed coral (I would assume cuttlebone was the same) over time slowly brings up the KH of your water and thus your pH. It isn't an instananeous thing and as I have the very same problem of having water with a low KH value, unless I want to be dealing with pH crashes all the time I have to make use of crushed coral in my filters in cycled tanks.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Coral, oyster shells, cuttlefish bone all are calcium carbonate and rise the kH and gH slowly 

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

I have not put the cuttlebone in. I was waiting to make sure that the water parameters were stable.

So should I just use the cuttlebone or take it back for crushed coral? If I happen to keep the cuttlebone, how do I use it? Crush it up, leave it whole, turn it into a powder?


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

If you leave whole it works slowly but is not as messy
If you break it up into smaller peaces put in a nylon stocking or some type of bag
Both ways work 

Rick


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

OK, I can do either since I have a mesh filter bag I bought for the tank during setup but never used. 

I will stick it in the bag and place it in the filter so that it's easier to work with and contain. Also I don't want to increase the parameters too fast so I will just use it whole.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

kh = 2
gh = 4

I put the cuttlebone in my HOB filter on 6-aug-13. my kh and gh have since come up by 1 but my pH has dropped back to 6.0. it has been in the 6.4 range since 31-jul-13. I will give it more time to stabilize.

also my betta is in QT for fin rot so the heater and thermometer have been removed.


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## rickey (Jul 7, 2013)

Time, It's a slow process


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah it will definitely not boost your KH and pH up right away. It does take a little while for it to start to work. However, this is why people recommend it over things like chemicals where the process is usually quicker but the results less stable. 

Slow and steady is definitely best when it comes to fish.


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## InfiniteGlory (Dec 17, 2012)

I kinda figured the kh/gh were going to be slow since that is what everyone told me. but why would the ph drop back down again? i thought it would stay at 6.4 and slowly raise back up at the same rate the kg/gh is.


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