# HM x CT



## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

So I have my male, InkQuill, and a female Valentine that is a CT.

In my mind, I would imagine that I would get Combtails from such a pairing? I love Crowntails, to an extent. I don't like the super stringy, crazy web reduction that the majority of Crowntails have in my area. I would rather see less than 50% reduction, with fairly level anal fins and larger dorsals.

InkQuill's ventrals aren't "smooth" and look Crowntail like, which is something I actually enjoy, so would that stick around in a breeding to a Crowntail female?

Here are some pictures, so you can see.

What do you think about this pairing? Keep in mind, I don't plan to breed bettas for several months, either in two or so months, or as late as six months from now. I may not even breed these, and may buy nicer fish. But, I like to learn and want to try and get a basic understanding first.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

I wouldn't be breeding that male at all. He's got messy, uneven fins that are going to pass to his offspring, and coupling that with the fact that you're crossing tail types, you're going to end up with fry that are DISASTERS with their fins. Don't do it.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Nimble - I am not at all trying to condescend your knowledge or anything, just an inquisitive mind. How can I tell if his messy ends of his fins are really his fins, or just slightly shredded? His dorsal didn't always seem to have that bigger notch, and his caudal didn't always seem to be so "shredded" looking, but I can't tell because I got him fairly young and he was clamped and has grown a ton since then. The shredding could be from a fake plant I used to have, but I can't tell how much of it can be pin-pointed to that. I guess I would just really enjoy an elaboration. XD

With a couple breedings, you don't think that I could clean up the fins? The female seems to have pretty even branching, except for the corners.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

It's hard to say. The male does look incredibly messy, and the pairing would give you a lot of messy fry even if his fins are only damaged. But, if you're very determined, and you select carefully and cull hard (look for reasons to cull not reasons to keep) you will eventually get good fish out of any pairing.

The question is not whether it can be done, the question is how much work you're willing to put in to do it.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Do you mind expanding on the definition of "messy" so I know exactly what you mean?


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Uneven branching, uneven web reduction. "Messy" is honestly the best description I can give you.

You COULD get insanely lucky and get a good fish right off the bat, but it's like winning the lottery. The "Keep it in your Pants" spawn log shows an accidental cross that came out AMAZING ... but the chances of replicating that without those parent fish are slim to none.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Okay, thank you! I wasn't sure which parts you were referring to as being "messy".


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Let me see if I can find a thread or website that shows you what you could expect.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

http://s207.photobucket.com/user/wwong61/media/CT10-Bl.jpg.html


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Male - rather older thus fins ends begin to split/tear in some areas. Color combo adds to the "messy" image. dorsal, like many bettas show protruding rays - again, may be interpreted as "messy". . . . if you can get a side view flaring picture, that would help. IMO he is okay to be bred.

Female is a common DeT CT cambodian.

What is your goal - color and or form

Most prefer to retain the HM spread. So it would be best to pair a CT male to a HM female. Hopefully you will get 180* spread on fry . . . which is unlikely if you pair the above. (I truly believe females pass on more of her fin form than male - ie. DeT female will produce DeT fry).

But if that isn't a goal, then the above pairing is okay.

CT x HM will produce uneven web reduction, uneven ray protrusion (size of rays) . . . what we call messy fins. You will have to choose to go CT (big rays), comb/half sun (tiny rays), or HM. Choose the appropriate form to breed further. With the right pairing, you should achieve your goal in 3-4 generations.

Colorwise; you should get some cambodian like patterns but with lots of irids, irid-red combo, and perhaps even irid-white-red combo. 

Good luck with what ever you choose


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Although something like this ^ won't be possible in generation 2, or maybe even 3, that would be something I would like to work towards. In my area, most of the Crowntails have reduction of the webbing to the point where the question is if they even have webbing.

I don't mind color, anything other than blue seems to grab attention of the average pet store shopper, so I rather like the mystery.

As I am a college student, my space restraints will keep me to only keeping one or two fry from each pairing, if even that.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You might get that color, well not the color bands but - steel blue body with red fins, even in F1. But you probably won't get that form. You will probably get less than 180* caudal spread and uneven web reduction. You will have to breed towards CT - breed the ones with the most web reduction (all 3 fins). . . BTW the uneven web reduction will show at a later age.

You will need tons of luck to achieve your goal if you can only keep one pair of each spawn. IME, They might not carry a complete set of the needed genetics (as genos or as carriers) thus you might have to breed more generations.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't care as much about color, if at all. I like the web reduction.

What is a better strategy then? The Crowntails in my area are awful. Wouldn't it be easier to go from no reduction down to desired reduction, instead of terrible reduction to more reduction?

Would breeding the CT girl to a DT, like this one, be better for a goal of nicer web reduction? Or the second guy?


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Breeding to Double-Tail may actually be worse if you're going for more crowntails.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

So then would it be better to find a HM female for the DTs?

I am feeling some coldness from some of these responses, but I could be misreading. In all honesty, I have been doing research for 2+ years on breeding, and the last thing that I am not at least 90% sure on is form and I finally feel comfortable enough asking questions.


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## aaronpham (Feb 15, 2015)

Have you considered buying some crown tails online? It may help you to your goals faster then choosing stock in the area


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Yes, I have, but I am trying to not pay the huge transshipping fees. Plus, there hasn't been a lot of variety in stock.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Check out eBay. You might actually be able to find something to your liking. I see plenty of crowntails there, and they're already all here in the US.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Ok, will do!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

CT x HM and CT x DTHM is almost the same - uneven web reduction. The difference is that you will have longer dorsal with the DT cross. Take a look at this thread; Form Breeding

You must understand that each trait is actually a combination of genes and that trait will be incomplete without the full needed genes. Sometimes not all genotypes are carried by one individual. Thus you may have to breed more generations to reach your goal - whether it be creating CT or Combs. Getting them to spread 180* is the hardest part.

For CT, reaching 180* spread is harder because they usually have less rays. Since I believe females pass on more of her fins, using a HM/DT female works best.
Using DeT CT females bred to HM/DTHM should give you little to none !80* spread. Either pairing will give you web reduction, though maybe not 50-50.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

Well, I just don't understand how I can ask questions here and get a lot of grief, and what I feel is cold replies, but over in Spawn Logs people are breeding whatever and they get encouraged.

That seems weird and hurtful to me, the one trying to research.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I don't see a whole lot of grief here. Only honesty. We can't help how you view our replies - remember that emotion does not translate well over text. No one's being hostile, there is just a lot of concern because of how difficult your chosen path is going to be.

The difference between the Breeding and the Spawn Log sections is the audience. There's a lot of "pet people" who aren't picking apart the genetics over in the spawn logs. "Yay! Babies!" isn't exactly constructive feedback. 

We're trying to give you the information you need _before _you spawn, and then they give you the emotional support you need once the deed is done.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

We're not attacking you or giving you grief. We're providing you the feedback that you NEED to hear, even if it may not be what you WANT to hear. None of your fish are appropriate for breeding, and crossing tail-types is going to be a messy procedure, and not something you should undertake unless you're willing to spend the time and money to fix it.

Taking into account what you said in this thread, you're not ready to breed Bettas at all yet. If you don't have the space, time, or money to invest in this hobby, then you're not ready. Sorry, but it's the truth. You can get butthurt about it, but it doesn't change the facts.


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## DalphiaRose (Dec 6, 2013)

I still have 6-8 months of time before I am going to be breeding. In that time, I could end up with money and imports / new fish. However, I am doing research now.

I have space, time, and money, that isn't the issue. It is the fish that I don't have yet.


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## SeaHorse (Dec 27, 2010)

Good for you for taking your time and learning a bit about genetics and the potential outcomes. I am the member who bought one of the Fry from the "keep it in your pants" thread. I'll try to post pics over there so you can see him. Once I've done that, I'll come back here and post a link. She was very lucky with that spawn.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Good luck! I hope you find a good pair of fish to start out with!


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## SiameseFightingArt (Jun 17, 2014)

The "Keep it in your pants" link: 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=469785


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