# What if someday....



## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Breeders created fat little round bettas that were kind of like fancy goldfish....They would probably be the size of a garbanzo bean hahaha....You know, I don't think I even want that to happen....XD


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## betta lover1507 (Aug 6, 2011)

lol, that would be strange though haha


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Hang on, they do have a bloated hybrid.. (leaves to find pic)


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Laki said:


> Hang on, they do have a bloated hybrid.. (leaves to find pic)


Haha what?! This should be good :lol:


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

All I can find are bloated and egg pictures. But somewhere on this forum someone posted a pic from Aquabid (I think) of a small bloated looking betta.. gaaah! I'm not crazy!!!


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Laki said:


> All I can find are bloated and egg pictures. But somewhere on this forum someone posted a pic from Aquabid (I think) of a small bloated looking betta.. gaaah! I'm not crazy!!!


I wanna see! Don't tease me like that! lol


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettashm1330955063 something like this...


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

It is most likely not a new breed, but a Betta with genetic swim bladder problems, there is a very slim chance that an actual breeder will process with this type of line, most knoledgable breeders wont, as the fish will be very inactive, prone to sickness, by poorly, hard to breed further, etc. knowledgable breeders usually know not to sell these types, and cull them. If they don't cull them. They will send them to a happy home.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Yeah I don't really like the look of a bloated betta...but the short-bodied one like laki posted....Well I like it a lot....I they bred those in veiltail....I would totally get one lol


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Does just being short bodied hurt the betta?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I'm going to step in and say that breeding for that is the worst thing to do. Any fish like that should be sent to a home where they can receive the proper attention or be culled at a young age.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

MrVampire181 said:


> I'm going to step in and say that breeding for that is the worst thing to do. Any fish like that should be sent to a home where they can receive the proper attention or be culled at a young age.


Like the one in the picture from the link?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Yes. Even overly finned fish be genetic train wrecks. Boy deformities are out of the question.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

MrVampire181 said:


> Yes. Even overly finned fish be genetic train wrecks. Boy deformities are out of the question.


Oh okay. didn't know that


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Gah I meant body deformities. I type too fast -_-


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## EvilVOG (Nov 23, 2011)

well that's my plan for breeding with giants. To try and make the better bigger so it can make more sense to have in large tanks and with more options of tank mates.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

I see most breeding for large with large fins. I was just wondering the other day about breeding for small. Mini bettas.... hmmm...


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

jeffegg2 said:


> I see most breeding for large with large fins. I was just wondering the other day about breeding for small. Mini bettas.... hmmm...


I would love mini bettas! As long as they could eat normal pellets lol


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Mini bettas such as plakats


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Wilds are sooo tiny  I want some imbellis so bad lol.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

No I want a mini VT!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> Wilds are sooo tiny  I want some imbellis so bad lol.


You've obviously never had to wrestle a full-grown unimaculata or strohi back into its tank before then haha.

I hate purposefully deformed fish like balloon rams and balloon mollies, which is essentially the same thing as what you are describing here. It cannot be healthy for animals to be so compressed. Surely, there has to be some kind of organ displacement going on.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> You've obviously never had to wrestle a full-grown unimaculata or strohi back into its tank before then haha.
> 
> I hate purposefully deformed fish like balloon rams and balloon mollies, which is essentially the same thing as what you are describing here. It cannot be healthy for animals to be so compressed. Surely, there has to be some kind of organ displacement going on.


 
All modern Betta's are some kind of deformity and not natural selection. I'm sure anything harmful will make the fish less likely to survive and therefore not likely to reproduce.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Don't those short bodies have something to do with crossing double tails?


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

What is your definition of a "modern", and natural betta? Without your full opinion your above post makes little or no sense, due to the amount of wild bettas still available in Thailand, A wild B. Splendens most likely will not have any deformity and will also be as close to a wild specimen that you could possibly attain. There are also wild type color bettas which is what I would define as a natural selection, once again you need to define a natural Betta as some people are clueless to any other type of Betta than the domesticated type with multiple colors, and long fins. I would classify baloon rams and mollies as badly bred fish due to the common deformities along with the shortened lifespan, growth, and ability to get sick easily. Where as a Domesticated colorful Betta has no heightened advers effects, the only noticable one that I have encountered between types is activity, due to the length of the fins. Little Betta fish is a very experienced member, so her information is very valued. Her post was correct, baloon mollies, and others a deformed ad affected greatly negatively by it, while your post seems to be not a very informative, correct one


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> All modern Betta's are some kind of deformity and not natural selection. I'm sure anything harmful will make the fish less likely to survive and therefore not likely to reproduce.


Breeding for longer pectoral or caudal fins is not going to adversely affect the health of the fish unless it is taken to the extreme. 

The basic shape of a betta has remained pretty much the same. I have wild bettas and comparing them side-by-side with my domesticated splendens, I can still tell they belong to the same species. 

By shortening the body, you would undoubtedly be selecting for all the attributes that a responsible breeder normally culls for. It would take a lot of ruthless culling to produce a consistent line of shorter-bodied fish, and I assume a number of those fish culled would have severe enough deformities that they could not be passed onto pet homes. 

The trouble with domesticity is that we have removed the need for natural selection. Therefore, these fish can continue to propagate, and continue to pass on their 'bad' genes to future generations. 

It's like how the fins of a swallowtail male guppy prevent him from being able to spawn. In the wild this gene would probably have died out, or become much scarcer, but by crossing a normal finned male onto a swallowtail female, we are able to keep the swallowtail gene in existence.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Just thought I'd go on and make the comparison to French/English bulldogs. These dogs are so deformed in their structure that you literally have to lift one onto the other to breed them. Their heaviness and leg structure make it literally impossible for them to swim, something all dogs should naturally do. People are starting to say that breeding these dogs is cruel due to their deformities, and that the breed should be left to die out ;( 
Breeding for deformities exists in many domestic animals, from fish to dogs, to chickens that grow too fast for their skeletons to develop. People want what suits their fancy and don't care what the animals quality of life is.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Not to mention English bulldogs cannot naturally give birth either, always c-section. Something messed up there! :/


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yep. Lots of brachy (short faced), and overly large dogs have short (as low as 6 years for Irish wolfhounds) life spans, just like balloon fish. Food for thought?


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

In the End all domesticit Breeds of Dogs/cats and fish and so much more are deformities that people have breed, to fit there wants. some things to keep in mind about trying to Breed a evolution in a animal is WHY you ARE doing it? My Family has bin breeding Mastiffs For hunting for years and we look at each dog an we look for making the biggest strongest dogs we can but we look at how each gene helps the dog. The problum starts when breeders startbreeding for VANITY it is what has happen to the Bulldog and thats sad that a once great dog (they were at one time great hog/bull fighters) is now in a painfull, disgraceful shape all for VANITY. I love my bettas and i love my dogs. so ill end this rant with this pls when you breed breed for the helth and streanght of the animal not just for Vanity.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Id like to say sorry if my above post was to harsh, I had a realy Bad day at work (a person kicked there dog, I flew off the handel and my be out of a job) and was a bit short temperd when i posted.


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Hm...just because someone can breed a short-bodied fish doesn't make it a great idea, especially if it looks to cause uncomfortable and life-threatening issues (like the aforementioned organ displacement.) It reminds me of the lady in the late 90's who bred 'Twisty Cats' because she thought they were cute. In fact, she bred for a serious deformity (RH) which caused cats to have non-functional front legs, and the cats had to hop around like kangaroos. 
Messing with genetics to that degree certainly isn't ethical, at least in my book.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Omg, bulldogs.. poor things. I recall a breeder my mum knew in the 70's - her dogs were too "old fashioned" for shows, but were healthy because she refused to breed the 'new kind' which is the genetic disaster they are now... makes me so sad, as well as those unfo0rtunate persian cats with thier noses in the middle of thier foreheads (it's actually a show rule here for that breed that the nose cannot be higher than the eye line.. wtf?)..

Anyway, bettas:

My daughter's betta is a small fish with a LOT of fin - so much that he can hardly drag it all around with him. It gets in the way when he eats, pulls him over sideways when he rests... it's just too much fin! So he bites it off and gets fin rot, it grows back and he bites it, and so on. And I don't think he's all the way done growing yet. 

He is a very pretty fish, but we all feel rather sorry for him, and IMO I'd rather not buy another heavily-finned HM because it seems to me a little cruel to make a fish live that way for the sake of human aesthetics. 

In contrast, my VT female zips around like mad and seems to just be more able to have a normal, active life. I think my next will be a plakat..


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Hmm. I feel like a hypocrite disliking the idea of short-bodied bettas because my favorite goldfish are ryukins which have very round bodies. But I can say from personal experience that fish with deformed bodies such as the fancy goldfish do come with problems. Fancies are more prone to swim bladder problems and GI bloat due to their squished bodies. The fancies are also not as hardy as normal goldfish and can't take the temp extremes that commons can. But fancies aren't as shocking and appalling to some as other shortened fish. I'm guessing this is because they've been around longer and most people saw them before they understood the problems that can come with them. Or it could be that the first "goldfish" someone saw was a bubble-bodied fantail, and a goldfish to that person is a bubble-bodied fish. 

Here is an interesting PFK article on "balloon fish." It does have some deformed pictures, so it might not be for everyone. Aren?t we above this? A thought on balloon fish | Blog | Practical Fishkeeping


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Eew yeah I don't want fat sick bettas...I don't like dogs that need c-sections either


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I did not know they had balloon gourami. How dare they do that to my loves?  
A lot of top goldfish seem really disabled. They do everything to make them grow, even keep them in extremely shallow water, which has less water pressure so they grow taller faster (right? I've been reading on goldies )


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Olympia said:


> A lot of top goldfish seem really disabled. They do everything to make them grow, even keep them in extremely shallow water, which has less water pressure so they grow taller faster (right? I've been reading on goldies )


It's sad, right? I used to have goldfish in his plain old' comet form and he was the best looking fish. My boy Bubba lived to 8 before he died suddenly :-( 
He was white, and just a classic fishy. (If I had him today, he'd definitely have a bigger tank than ten gallons, too) I couldn't watch one of those bubble-shaped Goldie's struggle around the tank every day...it would break my heart.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Olympia said:


> I did not know they had balloon gourami. How dare they do that to my loves?
> A lot of top goldfish seem really disabled. They do everything to make them grow, even keep them in extremely shallow water, which has less water pressure so they grow taller faster (right? I've been reading on goldies )


I was sad to see a gourami like that, too. The thing looks sooo sad. I think you're right for the most part about how show-winning goldfish are raised. Those 'show-winners' aren't actually that attractive in my eyes. I think it has become this way with a lot of show animals, dogs and cats included. "Show-winning" now means certain traits taken to the extreme such as cats with such flat faces they have serious trouble breathing and goldfish with such large wens they barely swim but just waddle around the aquarium. I do like my bubbly ryukin, but I'll never buy a show fish. Just give me the culls that wouldn't make it in the show world yet still have that chubby belly. I'll spoil them rotten.

ETA: Most of the fancies really don't struggle that much. Granted the show fish and some of the most deformed ones like bubble-eyes or celestials will struggle a bit more, but a lot of the less-fancy fancies like fantails and oranda (without huge wens) don't have that mush trouble swimming. My guys make full use of their 55 gallon tank. Again, I feel like a hypocrite, but I will never advocate another type of "short bodied" fish other than goldfish.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

I like when goldfish would randomly change colors! The white-orange ones always did.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

We live in an extreme culture, sadly ;(


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Unfortunatly what we breed for is not always in the best interest of the fish. If that were true, then we would only follow natural selection. I can't see how long fins are any less detrimental than say short body, or size.... If a line is unhealthy, then I could see just ending the line, but what we breed for is completely decided by us for better or worse..:shock:.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Unless taken to the extreme, long fins really don't have much effect. A well bred fish will be able to swim without it's fins bugging it in an aquarium. 
However a shortened body creates less room for organs, and thus organs all get squished together and in the wrong place


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Unless taken to the extreme, long fins really don't have much effect. A well bred fish will be able to swim without it's fins bugging it in an aquarium.
> However a shortened body creates less room for organs, and thus organs all get squished together and in the wrong place


So you have some study that shows this? A small dog is not as healthy as a large dog? A pony is deformed and not healthy? I don't see the connection between short body and not healthy...

Jeff.:shock:


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Animals like that have been bred for generations upon generations gradually growing smaller and adjusting to it. 
Fish are bred like this within just a few mutated generations and the organs do not mutate along with the body.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

jeffegg2 said:


> So you have some study that shows this? A small dog is not as healthy as a large dog? A pony is deformed and not healthy? I don't see the connection between short body and not healthy...
> 
> Jeff.:shock:


Time time is the thing missing. if you look at dogs you well find lots of sick small and larg dogs. 

how many generations dose it take to change a animal. The healthy dogs you see to day had at least 100 years or more put into making them what they are. change had to happen slowly so not just the out side of the dogs changed but all parts changed evenly. Fish are the same if a breeder just slams sick fish together they well reach there gaol but well have nothing but sick fish to show for it. If you realy want to change the size of the fish you would need to think of spending years to slowly changing the fish breeding streanth into the line as well as the shape.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Now if someone could breed for size and do it properly, not the horrid quick lets make em deformed and sell them as a novelty. I personally would love to see true mini bettas. Ones that got maybe half the size of our current or so. Though yes too do this right and be safe about it, it would take many many many years to do, if it is even possible.
edit.
How much if any would the stunting hormone that the fry produce come into play? Would that help affect over all size and genetics?


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## Sheldon31 (Mar 21, 2012)

Just to answer mo's question. A modern betta is the ones they sell most commonly now. Wild bettas would never have the 2 inch long fins that some of our fish do. These are modern because they are relatively new genetic mutations that have been over bred to create the splendens we pay upwards of $10 for. Kyon has very long fins which, if he didn't have such a long and bulked up body, would probably would cause him to struggle sometimes. He is a very active fish and I am yet to have any problems apart from his tail biting habit when he gets annoyed at something. I don't like balloon type fish. They do look so squished and I don't like the bubble type goldfish especially the ones that look like they have pop eye. They just look ill. I like the regular little comet.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Amphibianite said:


> How much if any would the stunting hormone that the fry produce come into play? Would that help affect over all size and genetics?


 
It could be used as a starting point to help trigger the change but would mean leaveing the fish in horrid water in less you could find a way to mimic the hormone.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Betta16 said:


> Time time is the thing missing. if you look at dogs you well find lots of sick small and larg dogs.
> 
> how many generations dose it take to change a animal. The healthy dogs you see to day had at least 100 years or more put into making them what they are. change had to happen slowly so not just the out side of the dogs changed but all parts changed evenly. Fish are the same if a breeder just slams sick fish together they well reach there gaol but well have nothing but sick fish to show for it. If you realy want to change the size of the fish you would need to think of spending years to slowly changing the fish breeding streanth into the line as well as the shape.


Thank you, this is exactly what I mean.



Amphibianite said:


> Now if someone could breed for size and do it properly, not the horrid quick lets make em deformed and sell them as a novelty. I personally would love to see true mini bettas. Ones that got maybe half the size of our current or so. Though yes too do this right and be safe about it, it would take many many many years to do, if it is even possible.
> edit.
> How much if any would the stunting hormone that the fry produce come into play? Would that help affect over all size and genetics?


To answer this question, must look at nature vs nurture, or more effectively in this case, hereditary vs environment. 

Anything you do to a fish- including stunting with hormones, will never pass on to it's offspring. This is because genes are determined right at the moment of conception and never change (unless you are a scientist splicing genes in a young fetus). An easy comparison- short tailed dogs, we crop their tails at around 3 days.. However this trait will never be passed on to offspring, obviously, as this is environmental. 

I do believe the grey area lies in constant exposure over many generations- for example island animals (think extinct dwarf elephants, some lived on the island of Sicily, and maxed out at the size of a modern newborn elephant) were dwarfed over many generations due to their environment, a small island, not providing enough food for them. Arguably, this could be considered cruel- many elephants surely died during this dwarfing process where only the smallest, needing the least food, could survive. This is due to nature. 
A person doing this to betta would be purposefully avoiding water changes to achieve dwarfing- stunting fry. We already know that stunting leads to problems later on, as this is an unhealthy environmental factor. It is a large change produced in one generation.

The ethics in this is pretty simple if you ask me- as _moral _beings, we shouldn't look to _immoral _forces for guidance on what to do. We see a problem, we should avoid it.

If you ask me, the only way to breed tiny betta ethically would be selecting over many generations the smallest betta and breeding them, allowing their bodies to adapt slowly over many generations to a small size. This could be a process of a few decades, and could easily consume a person's lifetime. Starting with plakat would be good as these betta are naturally more healthy. You'd probably get little progress at first, maybe getting 0.1inches smaller. Inbreeding should be greatly reduced during this process, to ensure a larger future genepool. I believe our giant betta were produced in a similar fashion.

But of course this all my opinion, feel free to point out things you don't agree with. ^-^


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

I would like to point out on my end of things I have no thought of leaving them in horrid water, etc. I am a breeder and take great care to provide a happy, clean and healthy home for my babies. Just snipping any ideas of people who may think I am truly thinking about in a way torturing bettas ^_^.

Now I very may well make it a side project to breed the healthiest of the smallest of my spawns together and begin the long process of making smaller bettas. How long will I continue such an indevour or even begin it is another question entirely. I have my self busy creating my own line of Dragon Scale, Mustard Gas Half Suns. That alone will take a good portion of my time and years to perfect. 

I would love to hear if anyone plans on attempting such a feat as breeding true a mini line of bettas.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I think the easiest way would be to get a group of people working on this at the same time. Someone that would document progress closely. 

If you thought I was accusing you- I wasn't. I never got any idea that you do/want to try this from your question. I was just answering how this works out.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

6 breeders working 2 pair each and trading fish every after inbreeding 6 times, with the asumed goal being a 1/8 smaller after every F6 this goal could be reach in about 15-20 years.(if nothing gose wrong) maybe sooner but to make a new strain and not just a few realy small bettas i think its the fastist it could be done.


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## Amphibianite (Aug 6, 2011)

Olypmia, no I didn't think you were accusing me. I have seen some people on this site sadly enough get an idea in their head and run with it even when the person is trying to explain that isn't what they meant. I felt I had better air on the side of caution now to stop any of that.

This is a wonderfully thought provoking conversation and I would hate to have it ruined because of such ^_^.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Alright good to know!
Now if only we could find someone to do this proper way!


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Alright good to know!
> Now if only we could find someone to do this proper way!


I wish i had the time and money but as it is I have a VT line thats bin on hold do to lack of time and cash so another progect is out, (my mate would kill me to find another breeding setup in are house lol then she well want to keep all the fry lol happens every time)


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