# New Betta owner: Fin Rot not improving



## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

DarkMoon17 said:


> *The Four Most Important Aspects of Betta Care Are:*
> 1) Proper Water Changes: I have been doing it daily 100% since 1/2/13
> 2) Warm Water (78*-82*F): yes, around 78F
> 3) Varied Diet : switched from Hikari (12/20/12 to 1/1/13) to Omega One since 1/2/13
> ...


Please help, I provided some info from a clip under the Sticky Part 1 above in blue font.

Not sure what to do, am I on the right track or am I killing Fred with my daily water changes thus far?

Oh, I used the following anatomical references for my red VT, Fred:
http://nippyfish.net/bettas-101/betta-fish-anatomy/

Oh, here is the form info:
Housing 2.5g Acrylic Bow Tank, 2g filled.
What size is your tank? 2 gallon
What temperature is your tank? 78F
Does your tank have a filter? yes, but I am not using it today
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none, an old mug and a leaf hammock for QT

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Omega One pellets
How often do you feed your betta fish? 2 pellets at night, maybe 1 in the morning if he is up to eating.

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Last night, and will continue daily 100% for the next 8 days for QT with AQ salt.

What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 
100% for now, AQ is not cycled.

What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?
Aqueon Water Conditioner

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? Not yet.

If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? just got mild fin rot around 12/26/12.

How has your betta fish's behavior changed? No changes: swims around, curious with the mug, and rest on the hammock

When did you start noticing the symptoms? 12/26/12
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?AQ salt and daily water change, the black tip are falling off and his tail is not receding.

Does your fish have any history of being ill? No idea

How old is your fish (approximately)? No idea


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, if you see re-growth that is a great sign! THe aquarium salt should be used for a MAXIMUM of 10 days. After that just keep him in freshwater with daily 50% changes. Have you tried any of the more aggressive medications like API Tetracycline, API Fungus Cure, API Triple Sulfa, OR API Erythromycin? 
Can you provide a picture? Perhaps his ventrals are supposed to be black edged? I remember my old Lakitu's ventrals would show bright red when he flared but when relaxed they were blue. Scared the bejeebies out of me at first.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you're seeing growth and the rot part isn't continuing to spread you may be okay.. Can you share photos.

If you want to use an antibiotic for fin rot I suggest Kanamyacin, Maracyn Plus or Furan 2.

Tetracycline is not very helpful anymore because it's so overused stuff tends to be resistant to it and it's harsh.

Erythromycin is a gram positive drug and fin rot tends to be gram negative. 

Triple Sulfa could work.

Maracyn II could work - Minocycline but again harsh

Fungus Cure has a bunch of carcinogenic anti parasite meds... malachite green and Acriflavine. Not good choice for fin rot


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi,

I am not sure how to attach the photos, let me figure this out and post ASAP. Thanks.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

This is the caudal fin rot, see the edges and tips
http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=5177&pictureid=33008


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

I couldnt see the first pic but in the 2nd that doesnt look very bad.
Stick with the salt and water changes.
If you notice it get A LOT worse then start medicating. Try to avoid medicating when possible so that if you really need them your fish haven't become resistant to them.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Agreed, the edges are not bad at all. Bit of clean water with strict water changes should clear it up. It won't happen overnight but it shouldn't continue spreading. 

Go on ebay and order some Indian Almond Leaves. They are dirt cheap and really an excellent preventative water treatment safe for all time use. Again, it does not prevent illness, it just helps strengthen their immune systems and slime coat.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Generally it should clear up with clean, warm water - unless sometihng special is going on OR he is bitting his fin and it got infected with rot.

Once you get rid of the rot, stress coat at 2X the recommended dose can help the fins regrow. They will of course regrow on their own but it seems to happen quicker with stress coat or Krodon's fish pretector.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

Are you sure it not his normal coloration? Is it something he got while you have him or you bought him like that? One of my betta looks the same but it his normal coloration


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Phew, thanks to all, I thought he's is bad shape. I will keep up with the water change.

Would 100% water change without AQ salt after 1/10/13, followed by 50% every other day, and 100% in 7 days be enough ? I may or may not turn on the filter.

Some background:
I drowned my cactus and plants died under my care because I do not have green thumbs and I surely hope I do not kill poor Fred.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

sunlight said:


> Are you sure it not his normal coloration? Is it something he got while you have him or you bought him like that? One of my betta looks the same but it his normal coloration


I don't know if it is his DNA for sure, but my boss who gave Fred to me said his fin rot is not that bad based on the photo.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

10 days of salt. Then when you done treating with salt do 2-50% and 1-100% water changes a week. I think we already discussed betta acclimation in your previous post? It very important because you don't want to shock him with the temperature difference. And yes you can take the filter out. Watch his tail hopefully it will not get worse if it will then you might need medications. Medications will be last resort. It always better to try salt first especially if it mild .


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> 10 days of salt. Then when you done treating with salt do 2-50% and 1-100% water changes a week. I think we already discussed betta acclimation in your previous post? It very important because you don't want to shock him with the temperature difference. And yes you can take the filter out. Watch his tail hopefully it will not get worse if it will then you might need medications. Medications will be last resort. It always better to try salt first especially if it mild .


Thanks, the fin colors are turning lighter in grey and I am seeing very little translucent fin growth in the tattered areas as in growing back to its original shape. I suppose it will be take a while, but I hope it is going the right direction.

Also, the black tips on the Anal fins closest the to body, gill-side, is disappearing, as in the black shrunk from 1mm to 1/2mm in two days. But I am not seeing the translucent growth like that in the caudal fins.

Final AQ salt water change will be on 1/11/13. We'll see how things go. But I notice more rapid changes since I upped the AQ to 10ml per gallon and added the Stress Coat+ as suggested here.

I got the 50W heater and this stabilized the temperature at 80F (+/- 1F), really neat compared to my 7.5W that fluctuates from 74F-82F overnight.

Also, Moses, the Marimo Moss might be helping with this healing process too by taking in the bad stuff for Fred. Still learning A LOT from all the kind generous info-sharing people on this BB.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh good translucent fins growth is regrown. I would lower the temp to 78 . Both fungus and bacteria thrive and multiply in warm water. And 78* is good temperature for them anyway. So since you have adjustable heater you can slowly lower the temp about 1* in an hour.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

*Update : 1/11 is the last water change with AQ salt*



Otterfun said:


> Thanks, the fin colors are turning lighter in grey and I am seeing very little translucent fin growth in the tattered areas as in growing back to its original shape.


*The greyer tips continues to get lighter in grey at the caudal fins and appear to be shortening while the overall length remains about the same. I suppose the new fin grown is pushing out the grey tips as it "sheds"??

Translucent & more solid ivory tips are growing back, as in the torn fins are slowly coming together again.*



Otterfun said:


> Also, the black tips on the Anal fins closest the to body, gill-side, is disappearing, as in the black shrunk from 1mm to 1/2mm in two days. But I am not seeing the translucent growth like that in the caudal fins.


*The black tips are all gone. I am seeing Translucent & more solid ivory tips are growing back towards the body (1/2mm), no connection to the body yet, another 1/2mm to grow.*



Otterfun said:


> Final AQ salt water change will be on 1/11/13. We'll see how things go. But I notice more rapid changes since I upped the AQ to 10ml per gallon and added the Stress Coat+ as suggested here.
> 
> I got the 50W heater and this stabilized the temperature at 80F (+/- 1F), really neat compared to my 7.5W that fluctuates from 74F-82F overnight.


*Heater is set at 78F.
Still learning A LOT from all the kind generous info-sharing people on this BB.

Fred is a little constipated, 24 hours without having done a #2: fasting will start today.
*


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

If you can find frozen daphnia in the store it helps with constipation. Fast him one day. Some people recommending to do it once a week anyway. I never do it because i don't feed them a lot and i never had any problem. He is not bloated right?
I am glad his fins getting better. Keep us updated.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

24 hrs if he didn't poop it ok, the problem would be if it more than 2-3 days and if he will become bloated.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Not yet bloated, day 2, unless my eyes are bad. 
Anyway, had 100% water change Fri. 11pm, baseline ph 7.0, nitrite & nitrate at 0.

Ammonia got to .25 at 10am sat. Did 25% water change, got to .25 again at 11pm sat., did a 50% change. 

Sun 10am: 0.25 Ammonia, did 25% change, 0 ammonia at 10pm, slight rise in nitrite but not enough to do a change. Ph 7.5, 0 nitrite & nitrate.

Will test water tonight.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

How is the water ? How he doing?


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> How is the water ? How he doing?


have been hitting 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, did not even bother to check nitrate all day Monday.
ph jumped to 7.4, maybe it's the limestone in the gravel (??) But I think it helps the plants a little, right ? as it may indicate CO2???Not a biologist or chemist, just speculating.

Fred is swimming happy, not bloated after 1 day fast. I have a feeling the #2 slid through the gravel instead of resting on the gravel.

He got scared by the air bubble leaving the wisteria when he was checking the floating plant out.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Otterfun, Anhel asked me to take a look at your thread. Thank you for all the information you've provided. It makes it easy to help you.  

From what you've been reporting, Fred's fins are in the process of healing. Based on your info, it doesn't sound like he had a very aggressive rot so I don't think you need to do any advanced treatment. Stress Coat and a healthy diet should do the rest.

Your pH could possibly have spiked a little because of the limestone gravel (if you are sure it is limestone) or as a result of higher levels of dissolved organic matter in the water (ie, poo and leftover food etc). As long as it doesn't jump drastically from say 7.0 to 8.0 in the matter of a few hours, Fred will be okay. Some natural deviation in pH is to be expected. 

High levels of C02 in the water because of plants would actually cause the pH to plummet. If you are using C02 supplements, be sure to monitor the pH. It would be a good idea to only run C02 during the day for about 8 hours and then turn it off. If you are using a liquid C02 supplement like Seachem Excel, don't worry. It won't harm anything.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Hi Otterfun, Anhel asked me to take a look at your thread. Thank you for all the information you've provided. It makes it easy to help you.
> 
> From what you've been reporting, Fred's fins are in the process of healing. Based on your info, it doesn't sound like he had a very aggressive rot so I don't think you need to do any advanced treatment. Stress Coat and a healthy diet should do the rest.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is very reassuring. I appreciate all your concern and help.

Oh, forgot to report, Fred's fin rot was gone last night, no more grey.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Tested pH around 7PM last night at 7.8. Went out and got pH Minus. Tested at 7.4 around 11PM.

Would it be reasonable to maintain it at 7.4 ?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

A better way to keep the pH stable is to use driftwood or blackwater extract. Using pH uppers/downers can cause wild swings in the pH that are more harmful than a slightly higher pH. 7.8 isn't that bad; it's actually what my pH is. It might be better if you just leave it at that. Bettas are really adaptable.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks, or should I have just done a water change to lower the pH?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

A water change probably won't lower the pH by itself. I'd definitely recommend either leaving it at 7.8 or getting driftwood or blackwater extract to lower it safely, without fluctuations.

Since it does seem like your water fluctuates in pH, you may want to consider aging it. You would fill a bucket with the water, condition it, and let it sit for up to 24 hours. This allows the water to adjust itself and "settle down" before you put it into your tank.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

A good blackwater article is Indian Almond Leaf. You can buy them in bulk on ebay from sellers such as Amy Lim (I think) and Aquatic Magic (my seller). They are cheap and bettas love building bubble nests around them. They do sink as they get saturated but then they can create cool caves. They tan the water which is great.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

if you ever get IAL make sure you rinse them with water before you put them in the tank


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

sunlight said:


> if you ever get IAL make sure you rinse them with water before you put them in the tank


Hi,
What does IAL mean?


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Indian Almond Leaf. To help you get more acquainted with it, here's a link to someone else's thread last year (please don't comment in THAT thread because it so old. If you still have questions ask them here or a new thread  )
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=69357


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

Indian Almond Leaf or naturally dried oak leaves work.It sours of tannins that may help . You need to rinse the leaves and crumble into the water to make it dark brown. You can also just place the leaf in the water but it takes a little longer for the tannins to seep out.
Tannins have antibacterial and antiparasitic properties and also help to acidify the water and turn it dark colored. This simulates a bettas natural habitat which can help put the betta at ease. The tannins will help to combat infection.


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

sunlight said:


> Indian Almond Leaf or naturally dried oak leaves work.It sours of tannins that may help . You need to rinse the leaves and crumble into the water to make it dark brown. You can also just place the leaf in the water but it takes a little longer for the tannins to seep out.
> Tannins have antibacterial and antiparasitic properties and also help to acidify the water and turn it dark colored. This simulates a bettas natural habitat which can help put the betta at ease. The tannins will help to combat infection.


thanks, so if I use IAL, then I do not need AQ salt, right?


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Not for mild fin rot. Aq salt can be used in other external problems like parasites or scale problems.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

You wrote that final AQ salt water change will be on 1/11/13. Since you almost done with the treatment it better to finish full course of itHow is he doing?


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> You wrote that final AQ salt water change will be on 1/11/13. Since you almost done with the treatment it better to finish full course of itHow is he doing?


he did really well after rehab into the tank.
but he had bacterial infection and he died last Friday 2/1/13 IIRC in the QT tank. I went out to get some antibiotics but was too late when I got home.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm sorry for your loss


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## Otterfun (Dec 31, 2012)

callistra said:


> I'm sorry for your loss


yes, he was quite a character, every day when I got home, he would be like a puppy welcoming me to the tank and then stay really still waiting for his NLS at the feeding spot...we bonded what can I say it was a good 40 days for both of us:-D


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