# Sorority: how much fin nipping is too much fin nipping?



## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Three or four weeks ago I had to remove my smallest girl from my 55 gallon sorority. She got picked on really bad - her fins were almost gone- and she wasn't doing well competing for food.
Anyway, since then two of my other girls have gotten their fins nipped up pretty badly. my red VT never has nipped fins and neither do my two CT, but 2 of my VT's have a lot of rips in their tails and one of them has some chunks taken out. She has started clamping up a bit. Is this too excessive? will my sorority fall apart? I don't have enough tanks to remove two more girls. If I do, then I'll only be left with four girls in the 55 gallon. 
What should I do?


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## TakingthePlunge (Jul 6, 2013)

provide more cover for them to hide in, would be my first suggestion. The more densely planted/decorated a tank is, the less the fish see of each other, and they should calm down quite a bit.


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## peachii (Jan 6, 2013)

You've more than likely got a bully in the tank. Keep a close eye on it and remove the bully to time out for a week or two, then see if she does better. Can be hard to spot sometimes but if you look hard enough should be able to pinpoint which girl is the meanyhead.


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks to you both. 
Right now I do have a lot of cover. Most of it is on the side and along the back half of the tank but they like to stay at the front for some reason. Once in a while I will see one or two in the amazon sword.

I guess I'll have to pay attention more closely to see who the bully is. I have a feeling it's one of the crown tails.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

Is there a fish that is not particulary nipped? I would breeders net the fish with the least nipped fins one at a time and watch to see if there's any improvement when each unnipped fish is captive. The other thing is that it doesn't sound like there's enough fish in the tank to mediate agression for such a large tank from your description. How many girls do you have in the tank? What other fish are in the tank?


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Yeah, the red VT has never been nipped and it was obvious since the beginning that she is the alpha, and I haven't noticed either of the CT's ever having nipped fins.

Right now there are 6 girls in a 55 gallon tank. I had 7 but had to remove one because she got picked on real bad.
I also have 6 neon tetras (I had 9 but 3 of them disappeared at the same time), 6 zebra danios, 5 julii cories, 3 otos, 3 amano shrimp. I'm planning on getting maybe 12 purple passion danios at some point.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

From what I read that is not enough bettas for a 55 gallon. It's not enough to dispel aggression they have so much room it's like meeting each other all over again when they encounter each other. I have 15 in 29 gallon right now. Since housing more fish is problem buying more fish sounds like an issue.


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

YES an excuse to buy more bettas!
lol. I'm afraid my tank will become over stocked, though...
I really want some of those purple passion danios, too. Meh. Maybe I can find someone to take my neons. Neons are so cool tho!!! Hey, can 6 neons go in a 10 gallon?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah you can put your neons in a 10 if there aren't other inhabitants, you could do the neons and 1 Betta if you wanted to.

I agree, it's too much space. I did want to comment on one thing though for Time Outs. Make sure you float a container with the bully in it so they can still see each other but they can't touch. If you fully remove her from the tank then you'll have to do that all over again so floating in the tank is the best way to do a time out. I usually just use those cups but in your tank you could easily float a 1 gallon so that you don't have to do water changes daily/every other day on it. But as long as the container is mostly clear you can bascially use anything as long as they can still see each other.

The point of the time out's are so they can see but not touch, this generally diminishes the want for ripping fins from the bully. Each bully is different and each need different times in time outs. I had one girl that only took two day's and she was fine but another girl needed a full two weeks in time out for her to calm down. And don't worry about removing the alpha, as long as they see each other she will still remain alpha generally. But again, if you fully remove anyone from the tank, you'll have to reintroduce all over again


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok, awesome! Thanks!
How many more bettas do you suggest with the fish I already have and with the purple passion danios that I want (I was thinking 15 of them but now I'll probably reduce the number to 9 or 10)? When my smallest girl gets big enough I am going to try to re-introduce her to the sorority tank. Right now she's in a divided 10 gallon and growing a good amount now that she gets enough food. Once I put her back in the big tank, I can move the 6 neons to the 10 gallon with my male betta and remove the divider.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay what are the specs on your tank right now, how many fish and what type including the girls. What filter(s) and is it naturally planted or have plants at all with inert substrates? How often and how much do you do water changes?


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

If you can find out who your bully is I will send you six girls for the price of shipping. I have six girls in classifieds right now that I picked up from a Petsmart that habitually lets girls die. They are very young and busy staring at each other as we speak. They came in at the same time so they are probably from the same breeder.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

I am thinking at least 15- 20 girls.


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

lilnaugrim said:


> Okay what are the specs on your tank right now, how many fish and what type including the girls. What filter(s) and is it naturally planted or have plants at all with inert substrates? How often and how much do you do water changes?


I have 6 bettas, 6 neon tetras, 6 zebra danios, 5 julii cories, 3 otos, 3 amano shrimp, and a bunch of ramshorn snails and MTS. 
It's a 55 gallon NPT with organic potting soil and a sand cap. The filter is a Fluval C4 (40-75 gallons). I do about 20% water change every 10 days or so.





jadaBlu said:


> If you can find out who your bully is I will send you six girls for the price of shipping. I have six girls in classifieds right now that I picked up from a Petsmart that habitually lets girls die. They are very young and busy staring at each other as we speak. They came in at the same time so they are probably from the same breeder.


I'm pretty sure I know who the bully is. 
Oh that would be awesome if you can send me 6 of them! How much will shipping be?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can get up to 20 females if you didn't get the purple passions. Danio's actually occupy the same space that Betta's do and I can tell you now that if you increase your girls, those rambunctious danio's will actually stress your girls out even more leading to possibly diseases and stuff.

So you've got two options that I see, you can keep what you have and add up to 20 females to further spread out your agression and not get the purple passions.

Or you can get the purple passions and risk stressing everyone out.

Here's what I would suggest you do and obviously you don't have to follow it but it's just most of my experience with having a shoaling group and a sorority in the same tank. If you want a schooling group I would suggest something more mid to bottom dwelling like smaller Tetra's or Rasboras. But here's what I'd do for stocking.

15-20 Females
10 Julii Cories (Shoalers)
6-9 Otos (Shoalers)
And whatever Shrimp/Snails you want.


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## OrangeAugust (Jul 23, 2012)

Aaah, I'm more nervous about my sorority! I think I identified the bully and put her in time out for 3 days by putting her in one of the store cups and floating her in the tank. When I let her back out into the tank, the other females got weird. The one that was in time-out is a CT. But yesterday I saw the other CT flaring at her. and then she would go flare at my largest girl, and then one of the others was swimming around and flaring at everything. And then I saw my orange girl chasing the pink marble- like a real chase, which I've never seen before. I saw her do it twice- I didn't know they could swim that fast! She seemed to be chasing her out of her territory because she went back to the same area after the chase, but I've never really noticed them having specific territories before. I'm just afraid that my sorority is going to fall apart. I'm waiting to hear back from jadaBlu about those females she offered me.. but I might have to go out and buy more on my own sooner. But also, how is it going to work when putting in new ones? I know I used to read that you should rearrange your whole tank when you add new girls to a sorority so they can all establish new territories, but there's no way I can do that in a 55 gallon NPT...

Also, thanks for your advice in your last reply, lilnaugrim.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Most likely it's because they don't hang around with each other all the time so they're just so aggressive when they see each other again like we talked about before. When you get new girls, after the two week QT float them in the tank for another week or so so the other girls get used to her appearance. I like to do my two week QT in the tank so they have two weeks and plus some in the tank to get used to each other.


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