# Fry expectations of blue-red bicolor x platinum white dumbo [email protected]



## Chadbud (Apr 11, 2014)

Hey guys! I really got a lot of help from amphirion in my last post about breeding outcomes of my mustard dragons.

This time around I'm going to breed the Blue fire dragon male halfmoon into my platinum white dumbo ear halfmoon female.

I'll attach a picture of both, but I was wondering if you or anyone else wouldn't mind giving me a genetic lay out of what I could expect in the fry again. The last time amphirion did it in that long post was super awesome.



Here is the female: (she may not appear it in this photo but she is truly completely platinum white.. No shades of yellow or any other color in her.


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## Chadbud (Apr 11, 2014)

Here is the male! He is a red and blue bicolor dragon.. But his full name when I got him was: Blue fire dragon halfmoon... So anyway, let me know what you guys and amphirion think I'll get in terms of color in the fry between these two beauties!! Thanks!


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## Chadbud (Apr 11, 2014)

Correction: I think the term used for this female would actually be "opaque" white.. She's a SOLID bright white color.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

For understanding opaque genetics (white) I'd strongly suggest referring to this: http://www.ibcbettas.org/2012/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/IBC TA Articles/CS-28.pdf .

Female: red layer: unknown, black layer: cambodian, blue layer: steel blue, platinum suggests spread iridescence.

Male: red: normal(could be **** or heterozygous for orange or yellow), black layer: normal (could be **** or heterozygous for cambo or melano), blue: royal blue with spread iridescence.

Too many punnet square to tap out by phone.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

white opaque = steel blue + cambodian + blond + NR (in the least)
Red blue dragon = turquoise + steel blue + red + double metallic (in the least)

Probable color outcome = cambodian pattern with irids on them, grizzle, pastel color pattern, perhaps even cellophane. There will also be blue-red multi, turquoise-red multi, steel blue-red multi. Though there is always a possibility, but I doubt you will have any solid irids.
All the above color may be metallic or partial dragon (specially the irids)

Form wise; EE is recessive thus physically will mostly be non EE. But there should be some with bigger than usual pectorals. As for fins, you should have a good number of HM, though you might lose the "leaning" forward feature (breed back to male to achieve this). Look out for spoon heads in fry - this could sometimes be dominant.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

@indjo: i'll defer to you since you've been in the game longer. though you think that the male is a turquoise? he looks a bit on the darker side yeah? 

from what i also understand, cambodian and blond are both influenced by the black layer genetically. natural red is what you see on the cambodian betta in absence of the black expression. though i also guess that blond and natural red also yields the cambodian pattern, but with the blue layer on top of that, you might not see anything substantial.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Ummm . . . sorry, could you rephrase everything please. I don't understand what you're saying. Specially the last sentence.

I'll try my best anyway . . . This is a mixture of what I remember on theory and my experience.
Cambodian and black are on the same layer. Cambodian carries blond and NR. Blond eliminates black while Non Red eliminates red. Only then can white opaque appear (theory).

White or any cambodian line will produce cambodian pattern. Theory says cambodian is recessive but my experience says different. So white x irid will partly produce the same as cambodian x irid. - but fewer percentage. Blond and Nr are recessive and will probably be overcome by irids. Therefore opaque x red irid will lose the blond and NR effect. 

I think that's what you're asking . . .


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## SerenasFishys (Apr 20, 2014)

beautiful fish


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

indjo said:


> Ummm . . . sorry, could you rephrase everything please. I don't understand what you're saying. Specially the last sentence.
> 
> I'll try my best anyway . . . This is a mixture of what I remember on theory and my experience.
> Cambodian and black are on the same layer. Cambodian carries blond and NR. Blond eliminates black while Non Red eliminates red. Only then can white opaque appear (theory).
> ...


Sure, i will try. haha. you already know the main color layers: cello, red, black, blue.

red controls extended red, orange, yellow, red-loss, normal red (wild type) and butterfly/marble

black controls melano, normal black (wild type), blonde, and cambo color pattern.

i thought that blonde and cambos were exclusive from each other and not linked. cambos can carry red or non-red because we've already established that the two layers (black and red) are independent from each other (unless you're defining cambodian as a collection of traits rather than the single gene). i dont know which one would be considered dominant or recessive when compared to each other though.

blond blue betta, but not cambodian. 









i've heard (maybe this is now old information) that opaque whites do not stay white their entire lives. in fact i have an opaque betta that had a faint red wash to her, but now that red has increased to pink, so she is no longer white. this makes me believe that not all opaques carry the red-loss gene. other photos of opaques carry faint yellow and orange washes on them as well. these washes tend to manifest over time.


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## Chadbud (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys!

So would building a punnet square for this pair be too long due to the many different color/form genes that are possible? I'm mostly hoping for some nice Cambodian dragons or pie bald/marble colors.

The pair spawned yesterday night!! Eggs in the best and female removed with little to no fin damage! I'm considering starting a breeding log on the pair because they will likely produce many strange and beautiful fry variations


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I have never seen nor heard of a combodian dragon. There are "red dragons" . . . white body with red fins.

Sorry about the punnet square . . . this pair is too complicated for me - too many genes involved.


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## Chadbud (Apr 11, 2014)

It's alright Indjo!

I guess what I meant is a combodian with the dragon scale phenotype. I'm not sure if it's possible but I couldn't see why not.

I'm so excited to see the fry because of how many outcomes there could be. I'm more of a solid/bi color betta guy myself but this pair could produce some really unique fry!

Are pie bald fry a possibility with these guys?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Cambodian red dragon phenotype: Cello, Normal red, Cambodian, steel blue+ extended iridescence. 

That should be enough to extrapolate possible genotypes.

The piebald trait is apparently dominant. If the parents have it it will be passed down.


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