# Raised scales on face?



## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

One of my new girls, a red dragon, has pineconing scales on her head and gills but not on her body?

I got her on the 11th, she had some fin damage from shipping that turned into fin rot so I've been treating her with AQ salt since last Friday.

Yesterday the power went out while I was at school and the temp in the tank dropped. When I got home it was 77 degrees but its back at 79 now, an it likely dropped below 77.

She was a little lethargic last night (but swam around fine when I approached the tank) but now she is active and she's been eating fine, but I noticed those raised scales just on her face, head and gills. I don't understand this... Could it have something to do with her being a dragon scale? Or could it be dropsy? Why is it just on her face?

I am very concerned about her


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## Syriiven (Aug 15, 2012)

I would do warmth and epsom salts first to see if it helps. I'm really sorry she's not doing well =( But if she's not lethargic at the moment and acting more normal, I'd take that as a sign you can save her still (in case it is dropsy).


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm just confused as to why its JUST on her face :/ her temp has warmed back up but I have no clue how cold it actually got..


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It could be normal since she is a dragon scale, but to be honest i don't know that much about dragon scales since I have never worked with them. With that said, since it is isolated to just the head area and she is overall acting okay-It might not be anyything to worry about. How much and for how long have you been using the aquarium salt. Is she in QT for the treatment and what are the water changes and re-dosing method you are using. I assume you are using tannins from your PM's. Can you post a pic...


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't have IAL yet, she's been on AQ salt since Friday and I used less than 1tsp per gallon because it was healing well with just that. She is already in a one gallon temporary QT tank since I got her recently. She also has a small amount of stress coat. Daily PWCs.

I'm at school and have to work right after so I might be able to try to get a quick picture with my phone in a couple hours but I won't be able to get one with my camera until after work in about 9 hours...


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I just got home from school and she was being lethargic sitting in the top front corner of the tank completely still at a weird angle. When I approached and she saw me she started swimming around rapidly like she normally does making it hard to get a picture!










This is the best one I got and I'm in a hurry to get to work. I know I can get better ones on my camera. It looks worse on her gills than on the top of her head here in this picture...

You can see it on her underside too but it doesn't extend to her body.


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## Syriiven (Aug 15, 2012)

Hmm.......I really am not sure. I don't think she's pineconing yet...and lethargy could be something else. Like stuck in a qt tank ^^; So it may be normal lethargy....but I'd definitely wait for someone with dragonscale know all to come by.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Often times isolated pineconing/raised scales is the result of external parasites under the scales or a localized bacterial infection under the skin. I would think that AQ salt would be enough to treat any external parasites (flukes etc). 

Is her breathing normal? She's not "gilling" or having heavy movemen with her gills? Are any fins clamped?


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## Caii (Jan 17, 2013)

I hope she's alright! Fingers crossed! : <


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Her fins are clamped and starting to become transparent. Also, I don't know what "gilling" means, but she's not breathing heavily and her gills are opened sort of... I can't explain it well. It looks like her face is swollen.

Her fins started becoming slightly transparent on last Friday when I noticed the hole in her fin and started the AQ salt. Everything else wasn't until last night after the power outage... I'm going to go check on her now as I just got off work and honestly, I'm a little scared of what I will find...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Gilling basically means heavy gill movement. If she's not breathing heavily then whatever it is hasn't affected her gills yet, which is good. Do her gill flaps seem to kind of stick out a little, as if she was flaring but she's not? And can you see her gills? Do they look inflamed red or normal raw-meat red? 

You may want to try increasing the heat to 86 F in case this is a case of parasites. If it was, possible culprits could include costia, tetrahyema, and trichodina as well as skin and gill flukes. All of these are invisible to the naked eye and not all of them cause itchiness (ie, the fish won't dart and rub as if it was itchy).

Is she one of Mo's EE?


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Okay, when I walked up to the tank she was moving around this time BEFORE she saw me. She still looks the same, raised scales and clamped, transparent fins. There seems to be a little white speck stuck to one of her gills. I'll try to get better pictures now...

I sat in front of her tank and observed her for a few minutes. There was a couple times she stopped and sat at the bottom or top with nothing but her gills moving kind of rapidly... I know my camera takes HD video so I'll try to get one uploaded, too... My other two girls are acting fine but they are a lot smaller and aren't dragon scales. As far as I can tell, they don't have whatever she has. I use the same equipment for the three of them and I have separate equipment for my boys... But one of them has internal parasites and what I believe is an internal bacterial infection. I don't know if any of that is relevant or not...

All I have on hand for meds is AQ salt, Epsom salt, general cure, parasite clear and quick cure... I should have metro, Kanaplex and VitaChem by next week and I'm planning on ordering IAL but I believe it takes like three weeks to get here...

I'm going to do another water change tonight. My girls get daily PWCs... I hope she makes it long enough for me to figure out what it is and get meds!


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Sakura - I just read your post. Yes, she's gilling now and her beard is kind of sticking out. I'll get more pictures and a video in a few minutes and hopefully I can get it uploaded without issues. Thanks!

Edit: she is a red dragon from Mo, yes. The other two girls are EEs from Mo...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I honestly don't know much about dragonscales and EE except that dragonscales can go blind from the scaling covering their eyes and EE males seem to be prone to permanent popeye. Unless you see some of her dragonscales progressing on her head, I don't think that is her problem. I don't know much but I've never heard of dragonscaling affecting their breathing. 

I'm not sure if internal parasites would cause the scales to raise on her head but it might account for her being lethargic and clamped. 

Few other things to consider would be your pH in relation to Mo's and how long you've had them (possible ammonia poisoning from the shipping). It could be that for some reason Okami's immune system is a little weaker than her sisters's so she's reacting to something that they aren't.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I have a few other pictures... I've had them since the 11th of January, and I checked with Mo before I recieved them and his pH is similar to mine (8) but I acclimated them over the course of a day, anyways. Her gills aren't only moving rapidly but they are _sticking out_. It makes her entire face look swollen, similar to if a human eats something they are allergic to... And she's pretty big. I think her body looks a little swollen, too.

Unfortunately, I have a hard time getting good pictures of her, even with my camera, because of her dragon scales. If I use too much light the pictures get over exposed because the light reflects off of her scales.









This is a bad picture but you can see how big she is...









Here, you can kind of see the scales and her gills/beard sticking out...









Clamped/transparent fins.









Her face always looks swollen like this from the front..









This is what she is doing now. I got a few pictures of her like this because she was laying completely still... In all the other pictures she was moving around too fast.

I got a few really bad videos. I have to use manual focus with video so it's blurry half the time and you can't really see anything except the way she's swimming around...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aw, poor baby. She looks pitiful in that last pic, with such a sad face.

She does look a bit swollen but not to the point of dropsy. Also, the swolleness might be from the AQ salt, as AQ salt causes fish to retain fluid more. 

I'm still tempted to say it's an external parasite thing but unfortunately, there is no way to tell for sure. 

I would recommend upping the AQ dosage to 3 tsps per gallon and increasing the heat to 86 F if you can in case it is a parasite issue. If she becomes more swollen/bloated during that time, then reduce the AQ salt back down to 1 tsp for a day and then switch her to epsom salt at 1 tsp per gallon.

If it is an internal problem like a bacteria problem, there's not much you can do until the Kanaplex and metro arrive. I think, when they do come, you should probably combine the two because there is another internal parasite, hexamita, that can cause dropsy-like symptoms.

If you have Stress Coat or Kordon Fish Protector, use it so we can coat her gills and help prevent flukes from attaching to the gill lining.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

hmm... her tank is floating in the ten gallon with the other two girls' tanks to keep them warm. The heater is adjustable but if I adjust her temp, I also have to adjust the other girls' temps. Do you think that will cause issues?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It shouldn't but watch them for signs of distress like gasping at the surface.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Okay... Both of them are younger and much smaller because they aren't full grown. I would think they'd be more fragile, lol, but they didn't have the fin damage from shipping and they warmed up a lot quicker when I acclimated them.

However, after a day Okami became much more active and very responsive to me. She follows my fingers and jumps out of the water a lot at feeding time. I became attached to her more/quicker. I'd be devastated if she didn't make it :/ (I kind of compare this to people adopting cats - everybody wants kittens more because they're small and cute but I love my big girl!)

Random irrelevant question: should I be feeding the smaller girls more or less because they are younger/smaller?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I will definitely be rooting for Okami.

I would feed the smaller girls the same amount of food as always but to encourage growth use the food that has the highest protein. Too much food would not cause them to grow so much as cause them to grow fat.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

All scales have pineconed. It's dropsy.

Wish I had ordered Kanaplex earlier...


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm sorry


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