# What Community Fish to add in a 40 gallon breeder tank?



## manami

Hello!

I think I made my final decision on choosing the 40g breeder tank over the 55g long tank. I like the idea of the extra width space for more plants and maybe even smaller plants to cover the floor substrate. Plus rocks and driftwoods and some small caves/tubes for the bottom fishes. All I'm waiting is for the stand I like to be back in stock.

What are the common peaceful fish to add in a 40g breeder tank?

Here is what I have in mind:

- Dwarf Rainbowfish (2-3) or other central fish that's pretty...or maybe a single male Molly?
- Panda Cory *or* Pigmy Cory (6)
- Kuhli Loach (5-6)
- Cardinal Tetra (6)
- Rummynose Tetra (6)
- Otocinclus Catfish (2) <--the algae exterminator team! 

I will be getting a filter that cleanse more than a 40g on the back above the tank and a canister filter.


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## lilnaugrim

Well the Dwarf Rainbowfish are schoolers so they need to be at least 5 of them in order for them to be truly happy. I'm usually a big fan of the one centerpiece fish, a very large school and then some bottom dwellers; otherwise the tank gets super busy and isn't so peaceful any more, but that's just my opinion. So if you want to keep the Cardinal and the Rummynose, that's fine, they won't school together though.

Otos should also be in groups, again, they are schoolers just like cories. At least 5 together if not more. However, they are very sensitive fish so do not add until the tank has completed its cycle and is maturing (maturing happens after cycling, it's the act of the bacteria covering all the surface areas, parameters become fully stable, plants are growing very well) and it has a good build up of algae. Most Otos won't eat prepared foods so you'll need to have lots of algae for them to munch on at all times.

Here's a list I suggest:
1x Male Molly
6x Panda Cory
6x Kuhli
15x Cardinal Tetra or 20x Ember Tetra
6x Otocinlcus
(1x snail if you want a Nerite or a Mystery, that's cool too)

Again, Cardinals are also very sensitive fish, so add those in last when it comes time and make sure to quarantine everything at least 2 weeks before they are introduced into the tank once it's set up! You don't want disease on top of everything >.<


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## manami

I like that list! I like the cardinal tetras better and I love the zebra nerite snail= 3

If I started to see some algae growth inside the tank, I'll get the otocinclus team. = )

Isn't it overstocked? 
Will adding 6 Amano shrimps or Red Cherry Shrimps overstock the tank more?


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## lilnaugrim

Not at all! Here's what your stocking would potentially look like in your tank:










AQ advisor is very generous in their stocking so if I input my tanks, I get roughly 150% stocked lol so 77% stocked is like nothing. Granted, that is mostly bio-load so you do have to take into account of activity which is why I suggest the Cardinals over the Rummynose. Rummynose are very active; going back and forth in the tank all day long so they do very well in longer tanks, not that they couldn't go in a 40 breeder, but the Cardinals would appreciate your tank much more and TBH, look nicer ^_^


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## manami

Your right! 
I tried before the aqadvisor website but it can get a little confising but it works sometimes. I saw on YouTube today a video of MANY cardinal tetras swimming together and they are GORGEOUS! I just hope I can find them here at petsmart or petco. I believe I saw them at petco. I never knew there was another fish species that looked almost identical to the neon tetras. I choose the cardinal tetras because I read that they more hardy than the neons (plus more vibrant in colors!).


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## lilnaugrim

They also get a little bit bigger than Neons as well. They're still sensitive but for other reasons, Neons have been bred too much but Cardinals are sensitive to bad water parameters and cycling tanks still, so you still have to be careful with them is all


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## manami

Ok! I'll make sure to keep that tank clean! Gotta keep those fish happy and healthy!
By the way, will a single or two angelicus botia be considered a community fish type or aggressive?


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## MikeG14

The thing you need to watch out for is making sure all those bottom feeders get enough food. Once 15 tetras start to swarm during feeding it's unlikely that any food will hit the bottom. Make sure that their dietary needs are fulfilled and don't expect them to scavenge for food.

I have a school of very plump rummys that eat any pellet regardless of size. I have to drop pellets down a tube to make sure my cichlids get their fair share.


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## manami

You're right. For the bottom fish is it good those pellets that says are for loaches and bottom feeder? The sinking big round pellets? What about those called food? I used to feed those plus normal pellets for my cichlids years sgo.


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## lilnaugrim

All Loaches should be kept in groups, they are community fish though that will occasionally bug the other fish but mostly just do their own Loach-y type things. They get big though, around 5-6 inches, so I do not suggest them for your tank. Ideally, you'll want to keep one bottom school (usually it's either the cories or the loaches but because those two species are small, you can have both in that size tank) and maybe one loner bottom-ish fish like a BN Pleco or a Ram or something but I wouldn't suggest any other loaches if you're going to keep the Kuhli's as well.


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## manami

Not to worry. I'm just looking for other options in case I can't find the fish I want. I already found the panda cories at petco, *check!*. Male Molly, *check!* at both petsmart and petco. Nerite snails at petco, *check!*. 

Cardinal tetras I _think_ I saw a picture of them at petco, but I did saw over there the rummynose tetras, but I won't add the rummynose on the 40g tank. I think I saw otocinclus at petsmart. The kuhli loaches...I only saw at petco the horse head loach, but I know that one grows too big. I'm planning on buying the kuhli in case I don't find them at www.bobstropicalplants.com

Has anyone bought their fish there? Or other website that ships live fish and plants to Puerto Rico? I'm planning on buying the plants I can't find at petco at www.plantedaquariumscentral.com


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, Bob's is okay, I never had fantastic experience with him and his livestock doesn't look that great; honestly my PetCo has better fish than he does. Granted, I have a really good store near me, but all the same. I prefer Wet Spot, even though they have a minimum order of 24 dollars which always seems so silly to be but they have good fish generally.

And I love PAC, she gives a discount for our members as well, you can PM RusselltheShihTzu for the code, I believe I know it but it might have changed at this point lol But she almost always adds in an extra plant if you order more than one, always very healthy too!!


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## MikeG14

The way you can tell a cardinal from a neon is the red stripe on a cardinal runs all the way through the body.

Stay away from the rummys. I love mine but they can be tricky. They are also prone to ich. Look into some other tetras as well, lemons, bleeding hearts, and black phantoms are all very hardy. Avoid serpaes, they are very nippy with each other.


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## LittleBettaFish

This is my personal opinion, but with your current stocking list, I'd either leave the molly male out, or choose another fish like a honey or pearl gourami. Simply because the rest of your livestock are going to prefer water that is soft to neutral, while the molly prefers water that is hard/alkaline. 

I know a lot of people mix mollies with softwater species of fish, as they do with guppies and platy (I believe these do like harder water as well), but I think with your current stocking list, there are other species that would be more compatible.


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## manami

*lilnaugrim:* Really? Hhm..That's one of the disadvantage of buying online. You can't see the product or the live fish before you buy them. = / I checked out the wet spot's website. It's a little confusing but I saw somewhere that 6 kuhli loach cost $18 plus $35-ish in shipping or something like that. I'll have to check if they ship in Puerto Rico. 

*MikeG14:* Ok. I'll do my research on them. At least my nearest petco have lots of different types of fish than petsmart. I hope I get lucky and find my fishies = )

*LittleBettaFish:* Is the Molly a saltwater fish, too??? I believe my water is not so soft...more like in between medium but not hard I believe. It's definitely not soft. What is the water hardness the betta's prefer? I have in my nephew's bedroom a 10g tank with glow light tetras. None of them died except for a fire gourami that died less than a month. The tank was cycled but it wasn't old the tank from the time I got the gourami.


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## LittleBettaFish

I think they do like a bit of salt in their water, but it's not a necessity. 

Bettas normally soft to neutral, but they seem to be a more adaptable fish than certain species and can do well in harder water. 

I think how well a fish can adapt to water conditions outside its recommended range, depends on the sensitivity of the species/individual fish. For example, wild-caught fish are often said to be more sensitive than stock that has been captive bred. Likewise, some species really have to be kept at ideal conditions to do well, whereas others seem a lot more flexible.


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## manami

I'll have to be careful with the fish on the list. I'll keep an eye on the PH, too. Once the tank is cycled (but first i have to buy the tank and the stand...haha) I'll start with the more hardy fish first (I'll check the fish's sensitivity level tomorrow, it's night here XD) and slowly add the rest. I think it'll take a while because I have to start with the plants before adding the fish...right?


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## manami

Still not in stock the 40g tank. I think I'll remove the kuhli loach from my list and add maybe 1 or 2 Angelicus Botia (IF available at my nearest petco) or other type of cories or just leave the panda cories as the only bottom swimmers. Still haven't decided what center piece fish to choose. =/


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## manami

Apparently my nearest petco don't have cardinal tetras or Angelicus botia...will it be okay to add 10 Cherry Barb or 10 Harlequin Rasbora as schooling fish?

This could my list that I'm sure Petco has them:

- Pearl Gourami (1)
- Cherry Barb (10) or Harlequin Rasbora (15) *or other school fish you can recommend me, please.*
- Panda Cory (8-10)
- Bolivian Ram (1 male)*?*
- Amano Shrimp (6-8) *if I don't get the Bolivian Ram*
- Otocinclus (6) *if I get lots of algae*
- Nerite snail (1)


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## lilnaugrim

That looks good to me for a stocking list ^_^

You could do 15 of the Cherry barbs as well instead of just 10 if you do decide on those.


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## manami

I'm trying to create a community fish with colorful, pretty fish as long as petco has them >_<. The rest I've seen at petco are mostly gray looking fish with limited colors = /. If I find a new colorful fish, I'll post the fish's name here and see if it's compatible with the rest of the crew.


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## Crossroads

Another tetra relative you could look into are pencilfish. Inquisitive, bold interesting lil guys. I have some in my South American tank but I have only ine place I can get them so iff you're stuck with only petco fish, there's a good possibility you wont find them. Territorial displays are gentle and do not harm either male(its a tail slapping zigzag dance). Careful, they like to photobomb xD Guppies can be pretty interestingas wekl as variatus platies. Im hard pressed to think of petco only beautiful, fun schooling fish.


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## LolaQuigs

Sorry to hijack, but I'm in a similar position as the original poster--looking to start up a community tank of peaceful, colorful tropical fish in the future. I love the look of guppies, but I don't want any breeding going on.  Is it possible to keep a single male guppy, or are they social fish that are happiest in groups?


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## manami

Those pencilfish look prettyyyyy! It's just that the other closest petshops near me don't always have healthy fish. They always look sick with their fins clamped or with ick. I've been told there's a good petshop with more exclusive fish, but that's an hour away from where I live. I could go and give it a try. I'm just worried that the fish will gasp for air while being inside the bags.

Can male guppies live together and not fight? I don't want a tank full of baby guppies o_o


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## Crossroads

Male guppies can be kept alone but schools need to be 1 male to two females. Males will fight but mostly just nipping. I've never had my groups fight to the death or anything. A good fish store will ask ow long you are going to be traveling. I took my pencilfish home during rush hour in houston 2.5 hour drive home for 45 miles xD. Little guys were fine because they filled a huuge bag full of air. The three most common are the Coral red, three lined and another kind of pencilfish. I have 5 three lines. Coral reds are stunning but about 18$ a piece, three lines and the other are about 3$ each.I have 5 in a 20g long but when I upgrade to my 40g ill probably get more. I've heard the more you have the more personality they get.


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## manami

Wow! I would have freaked out if I had a fish in a bag for over 2.5! O_O
Ok! Good to know. I'm not sure if I'll find those there, but I'm curious to see what other fish they have there. = )


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## Crossroads

I checked on them everytime I stopped x'D. They took well to traveling though so they should be fine.


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## lilnaugrim

Lol, I ship fish for 2-3 days and they arrive just fine, I had one in a bag for 6 days, unfortunately that wasn't planned, the postal service goofed. But it's really not an issue if they're in the bag for a while


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## manami

Oh yeah. There's also the fish that travels from planes! I was always curious how it was possible for them to survive more than a day during shipping. So it has to do with the air they have inside the bag? Sorry if this is a silly question. Since fish needs bubbles or a filter running in their tanks for them to be able to breathe...


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## lilnaugrim

No, they don't need a filter or bubbles, they breathe the dissolved oxygen in the water. Betta's and other Anabantids (they posses the labyrinth organ that allows them to breathe air) need a small amount of air but the other fish don't. There are actually bags that called Kordon Breather bags that don't need a layer of air in them at all, just filled completely with water, that one can't be used with Anabantids since they need both dissolved oxygen and atmospheric oxygen.


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## manami

Oh, very interesting and cool!


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## manami

While I've been looking for a top lid and a stand...I been doing some little changes in my fish list (since I have hard water but I don't know by how much it's hard the water) 

How about this list? (It's almost the same as the old list = p)

- 1 pearl gourami <-- I'm still thinking about this one. They are really pretty, but so far what I've seen at petco/petsmart aren't so pretty =/ 
- 8 panda cory 
- 8 cardinal tetras
- 8 cherry barbs (or 15 of cardinal tetras or 15 cherry barbs instead)
- 1 German Blue Ram *or* 1 Golf Ram <-- are females Ram less aggressive than males if they are alone? 
- 3 Otocinclus
- 3 Angelicus Botia <---this one I would have to buy it online if I can't find them on my nearest LFS. But if I can't find a top lid to cover the tank, then I won't get the botia because I read that they can jump out of the tank.

The employer at petco mentioned me about Galaxy Rasboras fish. But aren't they soft water fish?


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, all those fish are softer water fish minus the barbs. There are lots of harder water fish but most of them are cichlids or livebearers.

I wouldn't do the cardinal tetras unless you know how hard your water is, these guys need soft water for sure to thrive properly. You could always buffer your water with peat moss though to achieve softer water (driftwood will help some too but not a whole lot like peat moss).

No, both male and female Rams can get aggressive. Generally they won't be that aggressive towards other fish unless they're breeding, even then, it's only more of a display of dominance and to shove off other fish from their nest. Not to worry though, Rams are terrible parents so you may get fry for a day but then they'll be eaten if the parents hadn't already eaten the eggs as many of them do. Once in a blue moon you'll get a severely aggressive pair, but they still won't do that much dominance; mostly chasing away from the nest.

What is a Golf Ram may I ask? Or were you meaning Gold? And if either are alone, they won't be aggressive (male or female), but they also won't show their true colors either likely unless they're showing off to a counterpart. Again, having two isn't necessary but that's when they show their true colors at least  If you want one that is not finicky then go with the Bolivian Ram instead.

Instead of the Kubotai Loach (Angelicus), if you want a smaller similar loach, try to find a YoYo loach (Lohachata Loach) which stays smaller than the Kubotai (reaching 6 inches! Yoyo's only get 4!) and doesn't need as much water flow as the Kubotai which need river like systems. Yoyo's are less finicky in general but still eat snails just fine and they look similar to Kubotai's.


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## manami

Ok...i could add some male only livehearers in the future like dalmations fish or something that looks really pretty.

Does the Blackwater Extract from Tetra brand help lower the water hardness? Or will using Mopani woods help lower the water hardness and be more natural and less chemical than the black extract? Or I can just stick with the more hard water fish if it's too complicated >_<.

To be sure...I'll go and see if I can find the API GH/KH test kit and test how hard my water is...will that work?

Haha! Sorry, I meant Gold Ram. Those are really pretty. So is the electric blue ram (I think I'll get the EBR...I always see that one and the GR more active than the GBR...we'll see!). I saw a bolivian ram last night on one of my nearest LFS and it looked healthy, but very brown in color. Is that their true color?

I also saw two very interesting fish. But I had to take a picture because the name that the employes wrote on the tank is not the same species of the fish in the tank. And one of them was only as a decorating fish community tank and not for sale. I'll post the pictured on another thread later.

Yoyos? Aren't they more aggressive? That one I'll have to buy it online too...the prettiest and rarest (or not common) fish are not always available here unless by request AND IF they can ship them here.


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## manami

This list would be more easier to me since I can find them more easily at the pet stores and not have to buy them online:

- Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish (6 males only or 2 males and 4 females)
- Black Neon Tetra (10)
- Panda Cory (8)
- Gold Ram or Electric Blue Ram (1 male and 1 female)
- Otocinclus (4)

Are these at least not too sensitive if the water is hard? I'll buy a water hardness test kit soon.
I used the aqadvisor website and so far all of them seem compatible except the fish RAMS because they require more warmer water?


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## lilnaugrim

Sorry for the late reply!

You could easily lower your pH and hardness with some driftwood, peat moss, and the Extract if you wanted to. You'd have to test every week or so to make sure you can keep a mostly stable pH level but it's not too hard to do. It's up to you in the end. You can keep most softwater fish in higher pH levels with properly acclimation, but if you're able to soften the water at least to basic (7.0) then that should help them out  You just won't be able to successfully keep VERY softwater fish is all, but most of them are tolerant.

Gold, German Blue, Wild Blue, and Electric Blue are all the same species of Ram and then there are Bolivians. So you could technically mix a couple of them and you should be okay as long as you provide enough hiding places around the tank. 

So yeah, if you wanted to do the Rainbowfish, you could do all males or a few males and some females; my Rainbows seem to not be too picky. Occasionally the alpha male will harass the female a little bit to try to breed, but otherwise it's one female to seven males and they couldn't seem to give a crap from what I've seen. But yes, they do prefer cooler water temps which don't really overlap with the Rams.

Yoyo's are not aggressive at all, not sure where you got that from? Most small loaches aren't aggressive and just do what they will. I've owned both Yoyo and Angelicus, by far the Angelicus were more bothersome to my angel and the Yoyo's just did what they do and roam around looking for snails to eat.

And yes, Bolivan's are less colorful than the other Rams but they're more peaceful than the other ones. Again, the other one's won't necessarily kill your other fish lol, but the Bolivians just seem to roam around more and pick at food items, not caring about the other fish so much. 

Not knowing what's in your area is hard for me to help put together a stocking list lol. But here's what I'd do if you want to soften the water:

1 x Pearl Gourami
12 x Black Neon or Cardinal Tetra (Cardinals are still harder to keep just because of sensitivity issues)
6 x Panda Cories
2 x Rams (Gold, GBR, or EB)
3 x Yoyo Loach

If you want to stay with your harder water and cooler water temps around 70-76

1 x Male Paradise Fish
12 x Dwarf Neon Rainbow (sexes don't matter)
8 x White Cloud Mountain Minnows
8 x Panda Cory or Corydoras Aeneus (less picky about water params)
3 x Kubotai Loach


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## manami

I'll have to buy the api water hardness kit online. I can't find it online. Would a water hardness kit be necessary to test my tap water? Wouldn't knowing the test result of the PH be enough to know if my tap water is hard? Or is there a slight difference between testing PH and testing water hardness? (I'll test the water of my betta tonight and see how is the PH)

I'm getting (hopefully!) from someone a nice driftwood (i don't know how big it is) for my tank. I'll have to ask what type of wood is. Do all woods help lower PHs?

I'll know how hard my water hardness/PH when I start to setup the tank and add driftwoods. I'll order online the black water extract if I'll need it (probably yes).

I like the two options you mentioned. (Thank you for using your time doing this!)

I want to try the first list but with this change: (will it work?)

1 x Pearl Gourami
12 x Black Neon Tetra <-- I like these. They just look so cool!
6 x Panda Cory 
6 x Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish <-- can they handle soft water if I manage to make the water less hard?
3 x Yoyo Loach <-- probably order online. So far not available where I looked.

I'm gonna let go of the rams unless I can manage to keep everything well balanced in the tank.

A little OFF TOPIC, but this Saturday HOPEFULLY I'm going to start looking woods at Home Depot and have someone we know with experience built the stand. I'll just look at different stands online so that I can decide how I want my stand to look.

I'm sorry for so much questions and posts. This will be my first time doing a big tank. My last biggest setup tank was a 30 gallon cichlid tank with 6-7 cichlids and that was a long time ago.


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## manami

I forgot to add the otocinclus! Or maybe not. Do loach eat algae too?


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## manami

Is the golden white cloud mountain minnows the same as the White Cloud Mountain Minnows? I was looking at pictures and I like the golden cloud better. If I manage to find them at my LFS or at petco, then I can get the golden clouds instead of the black neon tetras.


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## lilnaugrim

Testing your pH only gives you the pH. pH and hardness will generally go hand in hand, but it's not always the case. I had a pH of 6.4 and my hardness was 3dGH which is a little high for low pH's. And for my tap now which is pH of 5.0, I have no hardness and no alkalinity. But you can just take a water sample to your PetCo or any pet store and they'll test it for free, just ask for the exact numbers for them and they should tell you.

Not all driftwood is created equal, some will leach more than others. Some have been pretreated so they DON'T create any more tannins, or at least not a large amount. If you want to help buffer your water, try to find one that hasn't been in a tank before or pretreated. Mopani is a nice heavy wood and I usually find Malaysian to be real good for pumping out tannins as well as Mopani.

Loaches do not eat algae, they are like Cories; just scavenge the bottom for fallen flakes and pellets or other foods.

Yes Golden clouds are just another morph of White Clouds, same species.

Take care to look at the water temperature requirement for these fish, Rainbowfish prefer cooler water as does most cories. So if you want the Rams, don't do Rainbowfish, White/Gold Clouds, or Paradise fish, they're all colderwater fish were Rams need at least 82 to be happy.


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## manami

I'll send a sample at petco to test my water hardness.
I saw on Ebay some good mopani woods. When I get the driftwood and add it to the tank, I'll check if it helped soften the water and lower the PH.

I decided not to get the Rams. As pretty as they are, I don't feel ready to have then yet @[email protected]


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, even if you were to get them, you'd still have to wait a good six months or so before your tank is "matured" and really stable for them. Nitrates really do a huge number on them and if you can't keep them in check, it's not worth wasting money on them just yet. But, once you learn how to control all those elements, they'll be there for you still ^_^


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## manami

Ok!


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