# The Uglies Spawn Log



## kitkat67

In the past I have had little-to-no success in the past with breeding bettas. I got one pair to spawn (it was a small spawn) but only had one stunted fry in the end. I had numerous failed attempts at spawning. Realizing I might have been over-complicating things, I decided to experiment with an inexpensive pair of Petco bettas. The female was almost white when I bought her, with just a few speckles of green. After marbling she is mostly green now (to my dismay). The male is a piebald blue DT. They appear to be still somewhat young, not adult-sized. But, hey, the more "into it" they'll be, not like the old fart I used first time around. 

I have a heavily planted twenty gallon breeder which I kept the female in for a week after purchasing. The male was bought later that week. The night I bought him he was a very pale color, obviously stressed. So without thinking, I dumped him into the twenty gallon. When seeing the female, he turned dark blue in a matter of minutes. Seeing as how they were the least violent of all my pairs, I left them in there, figuring if they spawn then they spawn. 

Two days later I caught their last spawn. He blew the bubble nest under a banana lily leaf. The height of the nest was impressive. I had one male make his nest on the fly and another think that bubbles should be scattered and not clustered. I took the female out that night (last night) and am expecting fry Sunday morning (80*F water). 

This log will be more for my benefit, a place to keep track of everything and to look back on for future spawns. Expect lots of pictures!

Here is mum (crappy picture before cleaning the tank, sorry) and dad:


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## Missinasworld

I dont think they are ugly. Goodluck with them.

Missina


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## kitkat67

Here are some bubble nest/egg pictures. I like how there is a reflection in the bubbles of the male.

Spawning spanned 1pm to 6pm 4/7/16. Female removed ~9pm.

The lily pad is rotting, hope it lasts until fry are free swimming.

Female looks a little rough. No body nips, except tail looks like a grass hula skirt.

Male is being fed during egg period.


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## kitkat67

Missinasworld said:


> I dont think they are ugly. Goodluck with them.
> 
> Missina


Aw, thanks! I like the weird ones best of all but my best friend calls them "unique" aka ugly. This is an ugly contender for the same female after a long R&R.


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## kitkat67

More notes for myself: 
No conditioning of either male or female prior to spawning. Female did not look eggy at all until noon of 4/7.
Mystery snails taken out of tank until fry will be free swimming.
Maximum lighting from 7am to 12am. Lights completely off at night.
No chimney or prior introduction.
Fish were fed normally during courtship.
Whisper filter, large airstone, sponge filter all on. Salvinia helped keep nest from being disturbed.


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## liamthen

looks good to me, they are not ugly


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## Hopefish

Love that pic of the male checking out his bubble nest!
I think that male has a nice body shape compared to most DTs I've seen


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## alecmerkel

I love that DT, not ugly at all... In fact he is gorgeous!!

There girl is interesting though I'm not gonna lie.She good color and form, but I think the marble gen acted weird on her. But I think you will get cool fry!!!! Good luck


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## kitkat67

My fish sitter messaged me at 9pm letting me know babies are hatching!


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## alecmerkel

Wait whatttt!!! You have a fish sitter????$&&))@&"

Not fair, I want one!!

Congrats, the fun begins


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## trilobite

Yay congrats on babies! 

Ps I looove that male! Very far from ugly, he actually has a proper body unlike a lot of other dt I see


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## kitkat67

Thanks guys! 

Last night 9pm, swimming diagonally.

Today, 4/12/16 7am, free swimming! 100 (I have no clue) babies free in 20 gallons of planted tank. I most likely will not see them for a LONG time.


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## alecmerkel

Congrats!!! So lucky to have them in the grow out tank already. In constantly having to much my fry


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## liamthen

Sweet, happy fry in planted tank!! They'll grow up fast


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## kitkat67

Well, since I have nothing to lose, and this is an experiment, back in the female goes!


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## kitkat67

Some pics of when they were still in the nest.


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## kitkat67

Babies look good. I think I saw only two this evening. Big tank, sigh. 

Male is working on another bubble nest. He has some sort of film over one eye. Hopefully I won't need to treat it, we'll see. Hopefully babies will not be affected.


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## kitkat67

Here are some pictures of babies and a very eggy (again!) mama!

Around noonish she was slender, but when evening rolled around she started looking super eggy! Might wake up to more eggs!

She is a really nice pink color, actually. I like it. Her greenish coloring has turned into more of a blueish, almost dark blue, color that I think looks pretty cool with the pink.


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## kitkat67

Male building bubble nest #2

https://youtu.be/CIqiLqPV5hU


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## Witchipoo

Gosh darn it! Everyone has fry but me!


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## kitkat67

Second spawn was a success! Eggs layed sometime between 1 and 7pm 4/13/16.


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## kitkat67

So many eggs! Anyone want to guestimate?


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## Hopefish

These guys are spawn machines!


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## Isabella15

Subbing


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## kitkat67

Babies must be finding all sorts of yummy things in the tank because they are double the size of newly-free-swimming-babies!


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## StephLove

They look great!


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## kitkat67

Thanks! ^~^

Pictures will be up later tonight.


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## StephLove

Following!


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## kitkat67

Pictures as promised! I noticed the eggs moved again. Now they are next to the lily (half of them) instead of under. The camera is a little blurry, but on the camera screen I actually saw a whole orangey coloured worm in one's tummy! The lily pads that are partially submerged are a great place for the fry to "sun" bathe and feel safe! Also, in the egg close-up, depending on the embryo's orientation, you can see some heads and tails!


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## kitkat67

2nd spawn hatched 4/15/16 12-3pm.

Father caught in current of air stone, had babies in mouth. After rescue he spit out the white blobbies. About 15, most likely will not survive. Too far from nest.


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## kitkat67

Male is making me uneasy. Dilated pupils, erratic behavior (swimming back and forth in the tank, not tending babies), color loss on body near anal fin. He looks like me during finals week. I took him out. The fry hatched, a lot are on the bottom, but since he's too frazzled to take care of them anyway I pulled him out and isolated him. If he's fine later I will put him back in, but if not I will give him lots of TLC. Two spawns back-to-back did a number on him. While possible, it's not a good idea.

The babies can swim from the bottom of the 20gallon long breeder to the top, but not many can. I will consider this natural selection and keep my fingers crossed most of them make it


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## kitkat67

Only a few days old and fry from Spawn1 are chasing each other already!

Update on father: still appears to be stressed. He's calmed down but has lost more color.


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## Olivia27

Oh no  do you think it's just stress? Fingers crossed he makes it xx


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## kitkat67

Here is what the male look like now.

Also....BABIES EVERYWHERE!!!!!! I CANNOT HANDLE ALL THE BABIES!


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## liamthen

Woot woot, grow up fast , raising up baby bettas are fun!! Their appetite at one to two months old are just amazing lol


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## kitkat67

liamthen said:


> Woot woot, grow up fast , raising up baby bettas are fun!! Their appetite at one to two months old are just amazing lol


Unfortunately their appetite extends to the newly-hatched slower siblings in the tank. -___-'


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## kitkat67

Spawn2 free-swimming earlier today.


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## kitkat67

Ugh...some of my babies are orange-looking. Genetics, explain this s**t!


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## alecmerkel

I would assume you have some NR (non-red) in there. I'm assuming it came from the female. She looks like she has a couple of different geno's in her.

How old are you fry? They are showing color rather early.


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## kitkat67

One week. Yeah, I was surprised by that, too. I can tell differences between colouring, dark grey, colorless, and a rust-orange on a few.


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## kitkat67

Before class this morning I checked on the male. He was floating on his side and a swish of the cup with no movement declared him dead. I came back, went to go flush him, and he starts freaking out. I fed him and he ate like a starved man and now he's staring at me like I murdered his family.


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## Witchipoo

Hah!
I know that feeling, it's called parental catatonia.
Heh heh
Glad he's okay.


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## ThatFishThough

Haha; you did murder his family! You took him out, and won't let him tend to his children!


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## kitkat67

On the bright side he got most of his colour and sass back, so there's that.


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## kitkat67

Most of the fry that were in the nest when he was removed are okay. I have no idea how many spawnlings I have. We will find out the first week in May when it's moving time.


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## kitkat67

God, I love this spawn. Last spawn I was meticulous in cleaning, water changes, water testing, feeding. I have literally done nothing since...ever. I have not cleaned the tank in a good month expect add a bottle of water here and there to replace evaporated water. Have not tested the water, fry are all good so I guess the npt setup is keeping the water safe. Have not fed them yet, although I did just start a walter worm culture a few days ago. I wasn't expecting to spawn so I let my cultures that had been going for a year--vinegar eel, micro, banana, and walter--die.

Babies are getting fat off of detritus worms, springtails?, water fleas, and the occasional sibling. Yes, my children, eat those [worms] disgusting wriggly things!!


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## kitkat67

Now that they have gotten bigger I've realized something...100% spine-abnormality-free!


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## ThatFishThough

I may need to steal your fry.


Just maybe..


Lock your doors, I'm coming....


Haha!


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## kitkat67

ThatFishThough said:


> I may need to steal your fry.
> 
> 
> Just maybe..
> 
> 
> Lock your doors, I'm coming....
> 
> 
> Haha!


o.0

lol, if I get a decent amount to survive to adulthood I will definitely be selling on ebay, maybe on the forum if I can figure out paypal. Of course they will have to be nice babies. Since the male is alive and such a nice breeder I will cross back the nicest female(s).


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## ThatFishThough

Hehe. I'd only snatch your females anyway, males.... What they lack in peace and kindness they make up for in fins.


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## kitkat67

ThatFishThough said:


> Hehe. I'd only snatch your females anyway, males.... What they lack in peace and kindness they make up for in fins.


Well, I will let you have your pick then.


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## ThatFishThough

Lol I was joking. My parents probably won't let me buy any fish from anyone, ever. I mean, yeah, they have reasonable points. "What if these people are scammers?" (Yep. A whole entire Fourm dedicated to scam people. *sarcasm*) "What if the fish dies when it's being shipped?" (I've heard they fly well...)

Whatever. :3 You do legit have some nice fishes, though!


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## kitkat67

Aw, thanks! And the offers stands. I have my fingers crossed for some fun oddities.


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## Hopefish

Scammers? What do they mean?
The will of a dead Nigerian prince just left me a swarm of 3-month old giant, rainbow colored, double-tailed, crown-tailed, blue-eyed, elephant ear half-moon plakats! (GRCDTCTBEEEHMPKs) And all I have to do is pay shipping in advance through MoneyGram! Oh boy, I'm right on it!


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## Olivia27

Hopefish said:


> Scammers? What do they mean?
> The will of a dead Nigerian prince just left me a swarm of 3-month old giant, rainbow colored, double-tailed, crown-tailed, blue-eyed, elephant ear half-moon plakats! (GRCDTCTBEEEHMPKs) And all I have to do is pay shipping in advance through MoneyGram! Oh boy, I'm right on it!


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Back on topic: Kaxen, what sort of colors did you expect in this spawn? I know you already noted some ended up orange ( :roll: ) but can I ask what were you expecting at first?


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## kitkat67

Kaxen?

I am expecting a lot of blue-marble variations. Hopefully no gree, turquoise, or red-blue combos. The mother was originally white with one blue scale, so I expect the babies to be white-blue marbles, since both parents carry the marble gene. I reallllllly hate red. So I hope that the mother's subtle pink color will pass on as that pink and not a red-red. I liked that the father was a solid blue with a marble face, hoping babies will take after him. Both are heavily scaled so I don't want to see any unmasked babies.
I'm hoping that the orange fry I see is a result of pigment they may have ingested (like flamingos) and not reds. Although, with the mother one does not know what one should expect. Can anyone tell me what the mother's coloring technically is? Is there a red layer in there under some dragon scales? Because she looks pink. Even her fins are that pink color, underneath the blue. She seems like a blue-fancy marble to me.

So in summary what am I expecting? Fancy marbles. Hopefully blue. F*** me if they're red. Bah!


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## Olivia27

.... I mean kitkat. Somehow I always mix up you two >< sorry!

I should go back and take a better look at the mom. She looks like a solid turq to me at first O_O


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## AzuryTheKitty

Totally gonna keep tabs on this thread :3


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## kitkat67

The walter worm culture is coming along nicely and the fry just had their first mini meal of cultured worms just now! At first they were afraid of the globs of worms, but I discovered if I mix them with water and slowly pipette them in it gives my babies a chance to see individually wrigglers and target them. Yum!


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## Hopefish

kitkat, I am never letting you in my kitchen.


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## kitkat67

The things I would use your blender and refrigerator for!!  My roommates still have no idea that the bag in the freezer is full of bloodworms and daphnia....snuggled in between the bag of peas and box of hotpockets.


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## kitkat67

The fact that I have no clue how many fry I have is bothering me more than my MolGen paper due in 12 hours. I only see 10 at most at any given time, but since they're so tiny I want to believe I have 200 hundred in the tank. They could be on the tank bottom, in the salvinia roots, in the back behind the driftwood. Unfortunately they are not at the point in their life when they swarm the surface when I open the tank lid, waiting to be fed.
I HOPE I have more than 10. The difference between the sizes of Spawns1 and 2 is immense. Spawn2 fry are definitely not as big as Spawn1 fry were at their age. I hope that the reason I am not seeing as many as I had hoped having is size and camouflage (the rust-coloured ones blend in with IAL). Grrr. One downside to having a heavily planted tank is not seeing how many fry you have. >:/


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## kitkat67

Just saw Trilobite's spawn log here:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=7337817#post7337817

They crossed bluexblue and got a yellow female. While I hate red I love yellow! So If those rust-coloured fry turn yellow I will be a-okay!


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## kitkat67

On another note I bought a grindal worm starter culture on ebay from a US seller for $10 total! Pretty good price for a US seller! If you want to buy a starter (various sizes) go here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222087390213?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=520944778696&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


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## liamthen

--The things I would use your blender and refrigerator for!!  My roommates still have no idea that the bag in the freezer is full of bloodworms and daphnia....snuggled in between the bag of peas and box of hotpockets.---

hahaha, i have that problem too, i wish i have a special fridge just for my bettas later

about the fry numbers sometimes they'll surprise you the time they show up for you to count! especialy on planted tanks, and i personally thinks planted tanks way to breed is good idea, its ensure breeding success because many critters come out from them, although the numbers sometimes will vary by various factor.
i made mistakes comparing breeding result in asia and western part of the world by not factoring the climate, its a whole different level of difficulty when breeding in unsuitable environment.


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## kitkat67

liamthen said:


> about the fry numbers sometimes they'll surprise you the time they show up for you to count! especialy on planted tanks, and i personally thinks planted tanks way to breed is good idea, its ensure breeding success because many critters come out from them, although the numbers sometimes will vary by various factor.
> i made mistakes comparing breeding result in asia and western part of the world by not factoring the climate, its a whole different level of difficulty when breeding in unsuitable environment.


I also believe it's more natural for these fish, it mimics their species' historical environment. The variety of microorganisms and insects that they feed on in the planted tanks must be much healthier for them than one type of food that breeders will use, such as BBS and microworms. I also believe it's a cleaner way to raise them. Because of the bacterial cycles working in tandem with the plants there is less filth and chemical inbalance to worry about. Instead of cleaning daily, I let bacterial cycles take care of the faeces!


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## alecmerkel

check out my log and you'll see I had a similar problem. I breed in a planted tank and I thought I only had 40-50 fry. Turns out I had around 220 lol.

It's a pain in the ass when you transfer them to a grow out tank... TRUST ME. My feet and back still hurt from that. Took me 4 hours to get them all out.


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## kitkat67

alecmerkel said:


> check out my log and you'll see I had a similar problem. I breed in a planted tank and I thought I only had 40-50 fry. Turns out I had around 220 lol.
> 
> It's a pain in the ass when you transfer them to a grow out tank... TRUST ME. My feet and back still hurt from that. Took me 4 hours to get them all out.


....damn. That is their grow-out tank. The next-step up is our bathtub. I have seltzer bottles ready for jarring...but not a grow-out tank bigger than my 20 gallon.


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## kitkat67

*reads through spawn log*
*starts crying*
"I guess the bathtub will be out of commission this summer."


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## kitkat67

I have been closely studying the fry. Spawn2 are nearly impossible to see, but when I do see one it's like a cockroach, many more nearby. I so believe this is a realistic S1 to S2 ration...10:90. I think Simon and the female figured things out and improved second time around. S2 fry are much smaller than S1 at their age. Food competition? I am away this weekend so their fates rest in the hand of my fish sitter. Duh duh DUUUUHHHHHH!!! We'll see Monday morning if they're alive. I left them with a hearty amount of walter worms. Some fry ate them, did not see many though. Mystery snails thought they were the best things since sliced bread. I can now say I have pipette-fed a mystery snail.


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## alecmerkel

hahaha I still can't believe that you have a fish sitter.


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## Olivia27

alecmerkel said:


> hahaha I still can't believe that you have a fish sitter.


Oi, what's that supposed to mean? I have two! ;-) one takes the girls and one takes the boys lol 

Hope the fries survive xx


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## kitkat67

alecmerkel said:


> hahaha I still can't believe that you have a fish sitter.


Lol! Any of my friends that I can wrangle into watching them are all my fish sitters. This one happens to be a housemate so she's been my primary sitter this semester.

In ten, twenty years I think that will change to, I need a nanny!!! And I'll be like: hello fish sitter my old friend...Ive come to call on you again....same concept, different species!


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## Hopefish

How are the critters doing?


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## kitkat67

I came back today to find S1 twice the size and S2 same size...coincidence? I think not. I think S2 is being outcompeted. Also I saw loooooooong dorsal fins, cute single caudals, and teeny weeny swim bladders!

Unfortunately looks like I have maybe 10-20 S1 and only a handful of S2 left surviving.

And the fish sitter suffocated my microworm culture. I am gong to attempt to revive them. It wasn't her fault, really, I should have left better instructions.

Oh! and my grindal worm culture arrived! The post mistress tossed my package onto the counter and I internally cringed. Thankfully they were well packaged, but phew! They stink!


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## kitkat67

Update on fry. Pics taken earlier this week. Huge difference between S1 and S2. Most of the fry in S1 are pink, but I found JumboFry who appears to be coloring and growing far ahead of his brothers and sisters.

Edit: oh, excuse the snails in the corner of the picture....fingers crossed for eggs!


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## AzuryTheKitty

Omg they're so Adorable! Grow little ones growwwww!


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## kitkat67

I just saw one yawn it was the cutest thing!!


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## kitkat67

Interesting intestines.


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## kitkat67

4-5 days since they last ate walter worms yet they are growing like weeds! I don't have any good pics now, maybe later today. I fed them what little I could harvest from the resurrecting culture the fish sitter suffocated and they are coming out of hiding to eat! I feel like the witch from the candy house in Hansel and Gretel. 

(Also, in attempt to get some nutrients into the worms (and into the fry) that is not fat, I added some algae wafers into the culture, the worms love it!)


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## kitkat67

I JUST SAW A DOUBLE-TAILED FRY. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness! It was a heart-shaped tail, definitely not a nip!

(Most likely it's not fully separated considering dame does not have DT genes, but I was not expecting to see any DT in F1.)


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## kitkat67

First irid(?) fry! Quite the sassy little fellow, I must say.


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## Hopefish

Exciting news!
Ah, but of course, we don't know for certain that she _doesn't_ have double tail genes.

I just realized that's a rather confusing sentence. How about this: But she _might have_ double-tail genes.


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## kitkat67

Hopefish said:


> Exciting news!
> Ah, but of course, we don't know for certain that she _doesn't_ have double tail genes.
> 
> I just realized that's a rather confusing sentence. How about this: But she _might have_ double-tail genes.


Her dorsal is too short to be considered a DT gene carrier.


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## kitkat67

S1 fry are huge! They enjoy frolicking in the current of the tank and if I sit still for a few minutes they all come out of hiding.  On the other hand, S2 is still free-swimming size, the few that I found. I am holding off on vacuuming to give them a chance over the weekend to get a little bigger, but I don't have much hope for them. S2 has some extreme size variations: 5% are massive beasts, 80% are expected sizes, and 15% are runt-like.


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## trilobite

kitkat67 said:


> Her dorsal is too short to be considered a DT gene carrier.


Not necessarily, if she has more than 10 dorsal rays it can suggest dt carrier  a normal fish has 8-10, so even if she had just one more sneaky ray it can indicate dt genes

Babies are looking nice and sparkly :-D


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## kitkat67

She's still healing from the back-to-back spawning so she's not very photogenic. Also, I see her as dark blue in normal light, but under flash she is pea green. :/ Idk, is she considered "red?"

Also I am noticing most of the babies have the eyes I like in bettas, the white ones, but I saw a few with the black-black eyes.


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## AzuryTheKitty

I hope the female heals well.


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## kitkat67

Away until Tuesday morning. I set the walter worm culture up better for the sitter so hopefully it will be ok when I get back and S2 will have caught up.


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## liamthen

way to go Kitkat!!! congrats on the DT, i love DT , especially the red one!1 :-D


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## kitkat67

Am wondering if I should get the little buggers some other type of critter culture for some diet variety or if I should put frozen bloodworms/daphnia in a blender for them. I discovered, in a container in a box under my bed, 2 Tbs of liquid that was my leftover vinegar eel culture I gave up on....Lo and behold there were worms in it after not being given food, O2, or new medium in months. Might try to get them going again and give them to fry. I don't have two pennies to rub together, not even Monopoly money, so I can't buy anything atm.


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## kitkat67

Running late today, two-second check: fry alive, blue, and fat. Yay! Pic later...maybe.


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## Witchipoo

Yay! 
That vinegar eel culture was serendipitous, eh?


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## AzuryTheKitty

I wanna see pics! Lol


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## kitkat67

S1 (biggest) and S2 (average) less than a week apart in age...


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## kitkat67

The jumbo fry has some black edging on his fins. ^~^


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## kitkat67

Tearing apart the tank, moving kit and caboodle home tomorrow! I apparently have more than 20 fry...

Accidentally sucked up and killed one fry...maybe two. Just broke out the giant gravel vac--too much power for any one fishkeeper. >

They are in a 2.5 gallon tank atm, I am going to take them home in a bucket with 5 gallons of their old water. Meanwhile they are munching on their microworms.


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## kitkat67

So the father is actually not a full DT, his tails are not fully separated. I did see a few fry with a small indent in their tails like this one:


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## kitkat67

A video:

https://youtu.be/nbNTGbM1xXw


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## kitkat67

*snap, crackle, pop*

my back :shock:


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## kitkat67

Some of them are black, blueish, whiteish, and pinkish. Should be interesting once the marble genes kick in.


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## liamthen

growing up good, they are on they cutest phase. i love the duckweed inside, seems the fry are enjoying them much by swimming underside them


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## kitkat67

I had them in the 2.5 until today (family emergency) and when I would check on them I could never see any (they were hiding in only places available: salvinia roots) insecure little buggers. lol

Btw, set up their new home at home and it is quite the delight!


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## kitkat67

Also wanted to make a not: regardless of size, there is a 50/50 color ratio between pink and grey coloured fry. Genetics, yay.


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## kitkat67

spelling mistakes in post
past edit time
*dies a little inside*


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## kitkat67

Found one DT fry that has tails completely separated, only problem is the top tail has three rays and the bottom has ~9. Dad will be feeding them during finals week. "You want me to do what?!" Yes, Dad, live microworms.

Tank is set up, I love potted plants in it's super easy to take down the tank and transport it and re-scape. I also tossed in my week-old snails. The fry stalk them and attack them so idk if I will come back to no snails. I took the airstone out since the water pump got soaked, and replaced the water movement with a whisper filter fitted with a panty hose stocking leg I got too fat to wear. XD I absolutely love sitting on my bucket and creeping on my snails and fry in the tank. I have the light on 24/7 on lowest white setting to make things easy for my dad (and algae).


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## kitkat67

Snowglobe of microworms...


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## kitkat67

Wsfsdijfbvjsfjsdfvbrfhrbvjfsjgvberjvebfvjifvjebjfhwekfj!!!!!

Is that red i see

why


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## liamthen

yes red bleed on upper anal, perhaps stray ancestor genes decided to pop up, are they NR, the parents?


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## kitkat67

I think the female has some red in her. I don't know their lineage, I bought them from Petco/Petsmart, but most likely they both have red in their ancestry.

Update on the fry, they are still alive. My dad and sister are feeding them. My squimish sister apparently is fascinated by the snowglobe of death that are microworms. I'll be home tonight so there will be pictures!


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## kitkat67

Grindal worms today! They are still eating microworms, but they can finally eat grindal worms (bigger fry). So funny watching them try to scarf an entire adult worm down...like me eating steak.


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## kitkat67

*6 Week Update*

Lots of blues and greens with hints of red and pinky-orange.


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## kitkat67

*Grindal Worms*

Laziness strikes again. Instead of finding something for the worms to stick to to swipe into the tank, I just quickly rinse and toss an entire scrubber pad in for an hour a few times a day. The fry attack the worm pad with ferocity and enjoy sitting in front of it "hunting" for worms. I find this great for not stuffing them all at once. By looking for and pulling the worms out of the fibres of the pad they space each worms out. I am still supplementing them and the little ones with microworms. The grindal worm culture isn't producing as much as it used to. I think it's from switching from cat treats to bread. Will clean and add cat treats tonight as the grindal worms are important in their diet. One average-sized worm is the equivalent of ~40 microworms.


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## bettaboyshiva

I just noticed your thread, strangely i cant see the thumb nail pics previously but these are gorgeous. I love the plants and the fish combination, It looks great! and your fishes are nice as well  hope they turn out to be stars


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## kitkat67

Thank you! Arrggghhhh, I am so mad!! I was hoping it was just me, when they switched to the new version all my pics disappeared!! I'll repost a few of them again, like the parents, and maybe some fry pics. Feels like a family album that got lost in a fire.


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## kitkat67

Did a water change, killed one fry accidentally. I am having problems with the grindal worm cultures but I have white worms coming soon so hopefully they will not starve!


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## MysticSky22301

Do you have any green babies? I couldn't really read everything


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## kitkat67

Yes


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## MysticSky22301

Sorry I saw the post where you had them after I asked x.x


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## kitkat67

I love watching the fat little fry! However, I am a little concerned, some of them have a small thing at the tips of their ventrals and I am worried they will have their ventrals eaten away like a few survivors from my last spawn. A few also have tiny white dots on their caudal fins.

I have added more plants to their tanks since I first spawned their parents. Mostly tube plants and tissue cultures. I did a very rough count of the fry and came to ~100. They share the tank with 11 juv-adult ivory mystery snails, 170+ baby purple snails, and now 4 rabbit snails. Ammonia reading before water change was in between 0ppm and 0.25ppm. XD Excellent!

I thinned out the floater plants (duckweed, salvinia minima, dwarf water lettuce, frogbit, azolla) so that the lower plants could get some light. All my algae seems to have disappeared as well. In order to save electricity I have only had the lights on when I am feeding them or for an hour right before bed. The house gets hot and the tank is right in front of the window so the tank is at a 78-79 temperature and I only turn the heat on during the night, but even recently have been leaving it off even at night.

A few days ago I tried feeding the fatties frozen daphnia and mini betta pellets. Only one fry ate a pellet and everything was left alone. The snails happily cleaned up the daphnia. White worm starter culture is not coming until next week.  

The fry are nipping each other more and more because I have seen some split caudals. The smallest fry is the size of a four-week old and the largest is the size of a seven-week old. Most are 6-week sized. I blame the slight decline in growth rate due to the fact that I cut them off of grindal worms cold turkey and that the microworm culture production was slow until I started the second one a few days ago. I find that the drier cultures produce more worms and less "culture slime" on the container side than those that are at recommended moisture.


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## MysticSky22301

You can try larger live foods cut/ ground small enough for them until you get their new culture


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## kitkat67

Their new culture is the larger foods. I don't have anything else.


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## MysticSky22301

Sounds gross but running to a pet shop for young crickets or mealworms and run them through a blender with a little tank water Ive done it for my guppy fry


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## kitkat67

I'm pretty sure that they are not hungry enough to eat non-moving foods. They will just have to live on microworms until the grindal culture is better established or the white worms get going.

Plus, I mentioned I have a few runts. Worse comes to worst they will become snacks.


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## kitkat67

My babies, almost at week 7!


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## kitkat67

trying something out...is it an okay size?


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## kitkat67




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## kitkat67

Finally! I never could figure out how to make bigass pictures!


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## kitkat67

This is Tiny Tail Mutant. If all my fry turn out to have ugly colors like I expect they will (red, ew), Tiny Tail Mutant will be the only one I am keeping. Oddly enough this is the only fry that has anything relatively close to a double tail.


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## kitkat67

Seven weeks old!


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## kitkat67

I gave them mini pellets and about 75% of the fry that went up for air took a pellet or three! I just fed them microworms but I guess this was an after dinner snack!


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## kitkat67

Well, I just named another fry. This is Little B (short for *bleep*). She is quite the bully. She (he?) flares at the other fry and attacks them when they come up for air. Little B ate a lot of pellets, mostly because the others were scared off. -__-

Little B also has some interesting vertical stripes.

without flash









with flash


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## kitkat67

Aaaaaand they have ich, fml. Aquarium salt and 85°F treatment it is....


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## kitkat67

One fry is severely pineconed a few hours after I added half the aquarium salt needed (no heat yet). I put him in a separate container so I can monitor him better. He is still stuffing his face with microworms, I wonder if he got something from eating the snail poop as I see some fry doing in search of microworms...


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## Amberjp

Wow, very pretty! the coloration and then the "sparkle" that the scales seem to have is beautiful, just wondering also, but what camera do you use?


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## kitkat67

a nikon, I am hoping to get a macro lens one of these days


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## MysticSky22301

They are so cute good luck treating them hopefully you don't lose many


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## kitkat67

Dropsy fry is still active, but is bloated even more. I put epsom salts in his jar. I also found a fry floating, unable to stay right-side up or swim and his fins are clamped. I put him in with dropsy fry. I don't have much hope for them. 

Just put in the last of the aquarium salt and the tank has almost reached 85. I will leave the heat that high over night as I still see a fin here and there with a spot or two, but most are spot-free. I think the temperature fluctuations and/or rabbit snails made the fry susceptible to disease.


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## MysticSky22301

Do you have Indian almond leaves? Also I don't know if others would recommend it but quick cure at half strength may save them


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## kitkat67

I am never using those medications ever again, Melafix and the rest. Never works and it stinks. And yeah, the tank always has a couple leaves in it.


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## MysticSky22301

I understand actually


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## kitkat67

A few more fry are bloated and pineconed.


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## kitkat67

Gah! I was moving pots around and the dropsy fry container fell and they escaped. Finally got the two after an hour of searching and sacrificed the non-swimmer to one of my males. The dropsy fry got a heavier dose of epsom salts.

I also let Moo out of co's floating container and co seems to be doing okay with the other fry. Granted Moo is bigger than them, there is no fighting. Moo gets pellets, fry get worms.


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## kitkat67

I've noticed in the past week some of my fry developed dragging butt syndrome (aka swim bladder development disorder). 

On a brighter note, some of the larger fry have more solid colours that I am seeing, including grey-blue, purple!, green, red/blue, and opaque (no stripes).


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## kitkat67

*8 Weeks Old*

Babies are 8 weeks old! They are still so tiny but have voracious appetites. There is A LOT of nipping and flaring and chasing going on and I see most fry have at least one rip in their fins. I feed them many times a day so I know it's not "hanger." I have two, I repeat: TWO, fry that are NR. Tiny Tail Mutant and Blue. Blue is beautiful. She (I am going with female) is the color of her sire and not a bit of red to be seen! Blue is also one of the biggest in the tank, if not the biggest. Needless to say she is my favorite.

Blue

















Everyone else:








































Tiny Tail Mutant:


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## MysticSky22301

Tiny tail looks to be green? Aww!


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## kitkat67

TTM is opaque. Only has green irids in camera flash.


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## kitkat67

Bad news: dropsy fry are dead

Good news: white worms arrived and are alive! Lmao, the box had a sticker that read: *LIVE INSECTS THIS SIDE UP (or else we'll get dizzy!)*

My dad was not amused picking up the mail and seeing there was a picture of a bee on it and there were worms and not bees in the box (he really wants to keep bees and chickens!)


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## MysticSky22301

I want bees and chickens too! But I can't keep chickens, or my step dad won't be able to come to the house. He works for the sterile farms that produce eggs for the flu vaccine!


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## kitkat67

MysticSky22301 said:


> I want bees and chickens too! But I can't keep chickens, or my step dad won't be able to come to the house. He works for the sterile farms that produce eggs for the flu vaccine!


I remember learning about that in my farm animal pathology and reproduction classes!


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## MysticSky22301

The quarantine procedure is crazy but necessary, 3 days between each farm 100 yards clearance from ANY domestic birds, or its a mandatory 3 day leave and literal clean suits even working outside the coup


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## kitkat67

*A Truly Ugly Thing...How Delightful!*

The marble gene at play:


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## kitkat67

Oh, bother. My precious babies are cannibals. 

Sister singing in the distance, "Another one bites the dust..."


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## dcg

OK, this is unfair advertising, still waiting for the ugly ones to appear into this spawn log. )


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## Fenghuang

dcg said:


> OK, this is unfair advertising, still waiting for the ugly ones to appear into this spawn log. )


I agree with this sentiment.


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## kitkat67

Just want to update y'all on the parents of this spawn. Simon is still a little drama queen, he spooks pale blue whenever I sit down at my desk but he is doing well otherwise. The female just keeps changing colours more and more, I think one of these days she might become a solid blue-green colour, but she still has patches of pink, I'll see if I can post a pic later tonight.


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## MysticSky22301

Aww color!


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## kitkat67

Today they had their first meal of grated frozen blood worms and loved it! Their diet currently consists of micro pellets, banana worms, frozen daphnia and bloodworms. I have been having trouble getting the grindal worm cultures to produce better, but it seems like they might be re-populating again.


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## kitkat67

New on the menu tonight: freeze-dried bloodworms. A big hit!
(Look how eggy Moo is!)


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## kitkat67

Lmao! So apparently my stocking level is over 400%!


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## kitkat67

*Parents*

Since pics were lost in the update here's some pics of the parents.


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## MysticSky22301

The male is a double tail o.o a pretty one! I don't like doubles much but very nice 

Have you seen any double babies?


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## kitkat67

*Week 9*

Blue has apparently decided to go with the flow and marble, too.

















Tiny Tail Mutant









Siblings

















































New breeder female in temporary quarters is not impressed with minuscule miscreants.


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## kitkat67

Feeding the wee beasties dried and frozen bloodworms and frozen daphnia.











Beaching themselves after a hearty meal


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## GemBetta96

The pic of the mom isn't showing up for me. Maybe because I'm on my phone lol. The dad is really pretty though. You take really great pictures of them!


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## kitkat67

Found a dropsy fry last week, one yesterday, and two more today...totaling six. I think there's seven but last one did not get a good look at. I always seem to find them right after I do water changes. Unless maybe that's 'cause I can actually see things after a water change. Any thoughts on why they are getting sick? I have 78*F water, I clean every week, ammonia is always at 0 or, rarely, 0.25 towards the end of the week.

Do you guys get this with your fry as well? Or is this a warning all my fry are going to eventually die?


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## kitkat67

Forgot to mention I did a total tank cleaning last week, crammed them all in one corner, and counted and came out with 117+


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## kitkat67

Blue is marbling well...


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## MysticSky22301

I see a little teal/green one in the picture and another with red wash fins rather pretty


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## kitkat67

Bad day today. My snail incubator got sucked under water level by the filter outtake and three fry managed to squeeze into it by the ventilation holes and drowned. None of my favorites, but still a bummer especially considering how many I've lost to dropsy (three more this week). I fed the drowned fry to their siblings who are have a blast being cannibals.

Here's an update from my friend who adopted a fry and a snail a couple weeks ago. I accidentally posted it on my snail log but I'll repost it here as well. I am curious to see how they do in the mail so if someone wants to help me experiment mailing babies, send me a pm.


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## Sadie Barnett

You can send some of those this way! Lol


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## kitkat67

*Momentous Discovery*

"Hold onto your butts," first spoken by John Arnold in Jurassic Park. Hold onto your butts, folks, I just made a discovery that will change fry sexing. I have my tank dark atm to not scare my snails away from laying their eggs and I went to go check on them using a pen light. Instead of the light, I accidentally turned on the laser pointer. It shown through one of my fry and I noticed something, if pointed down, you can see their organs! Even the dark-coloured ones! *You can see ovaries/lack of ovaries!* Similar to candling chicken eggs, you can sex your betta fry! I tried it on one of my dark, large adult bettas but her body was too dense, too big. But it works on your smaller fry!! I call it the KitKat Method. Happy sexing! (That sounded dirty than I meant it to...)


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## MysticSky22301

it would be cool if you had pictures! This will make my job easier later on! Accidental discoveries ^^


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## thendeathsaid

Would the laser pointer hurt their eyes? Also, what do the ovaries look like? (Or will I know when I see them?) All the diagrams of a betta's internal anatomy that I can find are of males


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## MysticSky22301

I know this is a male but in that empty space under the swim bladder are where the ovaries will be, a triangle instead of empty space as with most fish ( avid outdoors -woman) they will be MUCH larger when ready to spawn 

From what I've read even small females will have a triangle shaped organ (ovaries) under the swim bladder


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## kitkat67

I have a sneaking suspicion Tiny Tail Mutant is dead.


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update-Blue*

Let's start with Blue...who is barely blue anymore!!


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update-A fish in the hand is worth two in the bush?*

I like how their scales are so clear when photographed out of water. And I love, loVE, LOVE how they look like little helicopter-whales. And their tiny pecs!! I can't handle the cuteness! 









































































Blue is worth three in the bush









__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update-"'Dam,' she got uglier!" *laughs tastefully**


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update*

One of my favorites. A nice sea-green.


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update*

Another favorite. Same blue as Blue, only just a spot at peduncle. (Also in hand pictures)


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update*

Annnnd another favorite. Beautiful, no damned red anywhere. *Is there a name for this coloring?* Green? Steel-green?


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## kitkat67

*12-Week Update*

Randoms. I actually have a ****ton more cellos than I took pictures of, oddly enough they are the biggest and the darker colored ones smaller.

































I actually like this one. I had a pure white dragon-scaled female with a blood-red stripe down her head. Killer Queen eventually marbled blue-green.


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## MysticSky22301

In the first photo of the fry in your hand I LOVE the third one from the right wow


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## MysticSky22301

This turned out to be a very cool spawn, it looks like dragon is showing up which I didn't expect


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## kitkat67

The father has some white dragon scaling around his face, at least it looked like he did when they spawned. But, yes, how exciting!!


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## kitkat67

Prepping babies to be sent to my sister in Florida. No heat packs, no bags, fingers crossed!!


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## MysticSky22301

If they are successful I might keep your fish in mind


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## kitkat67

MysticSky22301 said:


> If they are successful I might keep your fish in mind


Please do!


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## kitkat67

1 L seltzer bottles
1/4 to 1/3 fill fresh water 
small pieces of IAL
three pumps stress coat
...
Oh! and one baby fishie per bottle!


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## kitkat67

Three babies ready to hit the road!


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## kitkat67

Tiny Tail Mutant is allliiiiiivvvvvvveeeeeeee!!!


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## Rhiannon

Yay! :grin2:


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## kitkat67

First time I saw an actual betta fight out of this bunch. Yeah, sure, nipping and chasing is everyday. But Poophead went all territorial over his leaf flaring and having a major tail slapping fight with another fish. Might be time to jar Poophead soon. 

Are those breeding stripes I detect?


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## kitkat67

*Fu Manchu*


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## ThatFishThough

Awe. That one reminds me of Angel.


SIP my baby boy. <3


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## kitkat67

The babies made to Florida safely! One has found their new forever home already  Georgia, named after the Georgia Peach seltzer bottle it arrived in.

S**** your breather bags, tropical fish industry! I will rule the trade with seltzer bottles!









Ghost: a little worse for wear, but happily enjoyed bloodworms upon unboxing


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## magrathea

yay!! so glad for them!! awesome that the bottles worked.


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## kitkat67

I will sell a few to anyone who wants a baby betta specifically, but I am going to wait until bigger to sell the majority.


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## magrathea

too bad I'm not ready yet. *sigh* technically, the betta in my avatar isn't even mine, it's my sister's. so. I am bettaless with no betta prospects. if I had a place for one, I would love to snatch one up!


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## kitkat67

*Ghost*

Two of the fish have been adopted out by a fellow betta enthusiast. The last one, the most PO'ed fish, "Ghost," has been adopted by my sister. She had not been planning on keeping one but I got a call from her saying, "Soooo, went to Petco with Ghost...$80 later..." She got him a 2+gallon tank, bubbler, _expensive_ heater, leaf hammock, moss balls, and a couple gallons of safe water. I taught her well. So proud of her! ^~^

Here are pictures of her tank and some more unboxing videos.


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## MysticSky22301

My favorite tanks for Bettas are the 3g cylinders that Walmart sells for 30$ with a filter light lid air pump and food sample it's well worth it finding heaters small enough is a bit of a joke though especially anything reliable or adjustable


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## kitkat67

We had some yummy pe mysis shrimp for the first time, this morning. It was a big breakfast of two cubes of pe mysis shrimp and two of bloodworms! Yum yum!


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## kitkat67

Big day today, 100% cleaning and tank switch from 20 long to 20 high! Also adding a thin, THIN, layer of sand for the rabbits and MTS to dig around in. The plants will be squished closer together so it will be denser and better (for me, not the fishies) for chasing.


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## CollegeBettas

I am so happy they arrived safely! They are all super cute. I really really want to get one, but I need to see if I will have room in my new dorm. I have no idea where I am putting my current fish.


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## kitkat67

Because of the length of the Planted+ I stuck with the 20 long and just added sand. MTS arrived today and they are burrowing through the sand as we speak. Fishies seen happy with the tank arrangements.


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## magrathea

so cute!!! what kind of plants are those?


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## kitkat67

lol, which ones? there are a couple dozen


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## magrathea

sorry lol- the ones a couple inches right of the floating snail


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## kitkat67

Various swords. I have red varieties in there except they were never red so I believe they were mislabeled.


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## kitkat67

Bahahaha! I am going to have a grand time sexing my bettas. Look at all those eggs!!


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## ThatFishThough

Haha! Let me guess, Male? LOL

JK. Female.


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## kitkat67

Tiny Tail Mutant is a girl!! 

I have a sneaking suspicion Blue is a boy...

It's becoming easier to tell with the cellos based off of eggs/lack of eggs and vent lengths who is what.


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## MysticSky22301

Aww cute! So one of the users found you can use a laser pointer to check for eggs, the eggs seem to pick up the red of the laser and become visible as the triangle in the back of the abdomen even in darker colored fry/ juveniles. Just be careful not to shine it in their eyes! I wish I could remember who it was I'd give them credit


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## kitkat67

kitkat67 said:


> "Hold onto your butts," first spoken by John Arnold in Jurassic Park. Hold onto your butts, folks, I just made a discovery that will change fry sexing. I have my tank dark atm to not scare my snails away from laying their eggs and I went to go check on them using a pen light. Instead of the light, I accidentally turned on the laser pointer. It shown through one of my fry and I noticed something, if pointed down, you can see their organs! Even the dark-coloured ones! *You can see ovaries/lack of ovaries!* Similar to candling chicken eggs, you can sex your betta fry! I tried it on one of my dark, large adult bettas but her body was too dense, too big. But it works on your smaller fry!! I call it the KitKat Method. Happy sexing! (That sounded dirtier than I meant it to...)


Would it be this person by any chance? lmao *dying*

If anyone is interested in a juvie betta (or three) pm me, I am ready for them to fly the coop...swim the tank?


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## MysticSky22301

X.x im sorry


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## kitkat67

lol, no need to apologize. I thought it was funny!


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## kitkat67

So I've noticed on at least two fry one black eye and one white eye. I am really liking the genetic variety this spawn has thrown. It's cool and so much fun to see new things every week! I tried to get pictures but it wasn't working out. Maybe when I start doing one-on-one seller's photos I'll get a better chance.


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## kitkat67

Tried to get pics of one of the b-eye-colored (see what I did there?) fish.


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## kitkat67

Waiting for a day when I will have more time, but keep a look out in the next couple days for the bettas I will be selling! I seem to have a lot of males!


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## kitkat67

Interested in buying one of these gorgeous babies? Check them out here: http://www.bettafish.com/140-betta-fish-marketplace/705961-bettas-sale-uglies-spawn.html


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## kitkat67




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## MysticSky22301

That's a cute picture ^^


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## KodaPlusMore

Subbing! Wow, your fish are so beautiful! I really like the betta in the picture above, the cello with the light blue is so pretty.


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## kitkat67

KodaPlusMore said:


> Subbing! Wow, your fish are so beautiful! I really like the betta in the picture above, the cello with the light blue is so pretty.


Thank you! Come check out my thread in Marketplace, I have nice pictures of everyone!


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## trilobite

Very nice results! Doubt you can call them uglies anymore lol. Are you keeping any for the next gen?


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## kitkat67

trilobite said:


> Very nice results! Doubt you can call them uglies anymore lol. Are you keeping any for the next gen?


I am! I might not be keeping any males even though I really really really want to! I am only keeping Tiny Tail Mutant (female) and Blue (male) possibly.

I even got a butterfly out of this spawn! I will be listing him soon. Sooooo many males to females in this spawn!


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## kitkat67

Huh, I found a little butt-dragger and it turns out he has a crooked spine! I don't know where he was hiding until now! I can't keep him as he is a male and can't sell him. I guess I will either have to put him down or if someone would be willing to take him on. He is a ferocious little thing, but does not swim very well.


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## CollegeBettas

How would care be different for a butt dragger? I'm not sure if I will have room until Monday, but I would be happy to home him.


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## Amberjp

I'd be willing to take him in also if CollegeBettas doesn't have the room available, I'm also wondering on how someone would care for a "Butt dragger" too


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## kitkat67

He looks and acts normally other than he can't swim very well. He is a pig when it comes to frozen blood worms! He is pretty aggressive towards the other males, too. Care-wise maybe sinking foods like frozen bloodworms and a slow current like a sponge filter. Nothing sharp in the tank and soft substrate because his tail drags. Amber, shipping to Canada would be tricky and expensive, but I am leaving shipping up to the potential adopter.


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## Amberjp

If shipping to Canada would be tricky and expensive then I'd best opt out then, rather he arrives alive to someone else than potentially dead to me, hopefully CollegeBettas has the room and if not, someone else will take him. Maybe try posting him if they don't have the room on your Bettas for sale thread? Hope he finds a good home!


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## kitkat67

One of my favorite uglies from this spawn, she has black hatching, blue irid, black and orange spots.


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## kitkat67

I have two favorite girls: Tiny Tail and Elektra. I will not be breeding T.T. since she has that wonky tail mutation, but I will be moving the girls I am keeping to a new 40 gallon with some juvie plecos to free up the 20 gallon for breeding. I want to cross Elektra to this male who has the same colouring as his sire.

The 20 gallon where my babies were born and raised is looking like a bleeping swamp. I have three types of wood tossed in there to grow bacteria to be placed into the 40 gallon and have IAL, all leaching tannins. The plants, because of the astronomical bioload, are growing out of control and only some light makes it's way to the tank floor. It looks dark, murky (tannins, not poop!), and you can't see two inches into the tank much less through to the back wall! I bought a Cascade 600 for the 40 gallon so I might get a smaller one for the 20 gallon to replace the whisper. Maybe a wavemaker. I like movement in tanks.


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## ThatFishThough

Hey, @KitKat.. Do you have any fems with fair form left? I'm looking for a girl to cross to Sam. :3


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## kitkat67

Sorry, all long sold except for my keepers


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## Amberjewel

Awww why is it called the "uglies" spawn? I think all fish are beautiful XP


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## Tuigirl

Those are wonderful fish.
You are so lucky.
But I do not understand why people call off-whiteish fish like these ugly. I bought a fish with a similar colouration at a fish store where the shop owner was surprised I wanted the fish at all because "it was ugly".
The mind boggles.


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