# Betta Fish Bowls and temperature



## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

My wife decided out of nowhere to get a couple of bettas and showed up with two bubble shapped fish bowls to keep them in. I have a couple of things that are concerning. First off, it's starting to get cold outside. We have central air and this building is old so the apartment tends to get super cold and then really hot and then the cycle repeats during the winter. 

I've also read that the bettas should be kept at over 75 degrees water temperature. I have a medical condition that causes me to get lightheaded and faint and that tends to occur when I get over-warm and over 75 degrees is pushing it for me. I tend to feel normal between 70 and 75. 

Now I know that there's no way a heater could fit in these bowls. They're perfectly round and small (big enough for the betta to swim around in, but not big enough to get a heater in). 

I'm just worried that the poor fish will get sick or die off from the temperature fluctuation and the cold.

My wife has shot down the idea of getting a fish tank for each betta. She wants them in the bowls and she thinks that they're going to be fine.

Are my fears unwarranted or is there something we need to do before the temperatures get too crazy? I'm just very concerned because I had aquariums for years and I ALWAYS hated bowls because they were so hard to regulate.


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## sareena79 (Sep 10, 2012)

low watt reptile heating pads work well ( no more than like 10w) just make sure u have a thermometer to check your temp w/ to make sure it doesnt overheat. my 9w one (natures heat brand) kept my 2g right at 80 deg...I have since upgraded to a 25w adjustable submersible heater so my poor turtle can have his heat pad back lol. depending on the size of your bowl u might be able to fit them both on the same pad (with something between to bowls of course to obstruct thier views of each other)


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

The other issue is that the bowl for the female is half the size as the one for the male so I'm afraid to use an unregulated heater on it. I'm desperately afraid of freezing or cooking the fish. I wish my wife had gotten a couple of small heatable aquariums instead of these stupid bowls. I always hated them. Bowls are so hard to really regulate and they're a pain because you have to change water every two or three days. I'm of the school of thought that you get a tank first, put in a heater and let it sit for a few hours, test the water temp to make sure the heater is functioning like you want it to, give the anti chemical stuff time to work, test the ph and adjust, and THEN get the fish. I have NEVER kept fish in bowls that stayed alive longer than a few weeks.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Hey there Blacklight, welcome to the forum. 

First of all....might I say you really have the right idea here with the temperature and aversion to the little unheated bowls. Those things are betta death-traps.......already far less then ideal temps fluctuation, causing stress and making the fish prone to illness(and if you do manage to heat them it can be so hard to keep the temp steady...), the quick buildup of ammonia requiring very frequent water changes like you mentioned....
They're just terrible, I fully agree. You're very much in the right to hate them.

I'd be a little iffy of using a reptile heating pad no matter what honestly....and especially in small containers. Theres just too much that could go wrong temp-wise with something like that.....I would advise against it. :/

You seem to have the right idea about how to set up a proper fish tank(no real need to mess with the PH though....bettas can handle a wide range, so its usually best just to keep it steady and not mess with it)though. I doubt there is too much more I could say about that that you don't already know. xD 

Though it may not be what your wife wants...it is probably best if you start looking at other tank options, just about anything 2.5+ gallons per fish should be fine. They do actually make 2-2.5 gallon drum bowls if your wife is set on the idea of a bowl.....they're not completely round, but they are a good long-term home size and you can fit a 25 watt heater in there.
They also make all kinds of other neat tanks in various shapes and sizes if you're wife is really against the look of your typical rectangular glass tank.....theres lots of properly-sized options to look into.

Do a little surfing for tanks around the internet, read up on our stickies and our here at the forum about betta care and whatnot, and perhaps explain and show your findings to your wife? Maybe once she understands an upgrade and heaters really are needed, she'll be a little more open to the idea of a couple slightly larger tanks.

Best of luck!


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

We have one male and one female and we don't want them to breed. What would be the best option that would take up the least amount of space? Should I get a 10 gallon tank and put a divider in and would that affect circulation and temperature? I've never had to keep fish separate before so I don't know about dividers. What's the smallest tanks that you can get a heater in? 2.5 gallons?
Also, if I get a tank with a separation in it, will it need a heater for each side?

Thankfully, my wife bought proper fish bowls and isn't keeping them in those horrid tiny bowls they keep them in in the pet stores. Those things HAVE to be animal cruelty !!!
Also, they seem to spend a lot of time sitting on the tops of the plastic plant stalks in the tank. The female doesn't like to move much and tends to keep her fins closed, however, she gets very active from time to time and she eats like a pig. The male also likes to sit up on top of the plant stalks near the water surface. He does flare fine and usually swims with droopy fins and he's usually curious and comes over whenever he sees us. He seems to eat a LOT less than the female.

Are there any warning signs here or do they sound healthy? I plan to get them into a bigger heated tank asap though. Going to head down to the Petco tomorrow.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

So many questions as I know next to nothing about Bettas. My wife just HAD to buy two. Ugh. That makes things difficult.

Okay. So. If I have them in separate tanks, I will need to get a filter and pump and heater for each one and so.. expensive.

If I do one tank with a separator in it, how big of a tank should I get? 
Are we talking more expensive here than going with two separate 2 gallon tanks?

And what about filters? For a tank with a separator, would that require a filter to do proper filtering on each side or do you just need one and would you require a heater on each side of the tank for each fish?

What size air pump do I use for these and how can I tell what I need?

Also, I've always wondered this. Would processing the replacement water through a Britta pitcher be a good idea?


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## bamsuddenimpact (Jan 25, 2011)

go to walmart, get their 5 gallon or 10 gallon kit for 30$ (one is 27.97 and one is 29.97) and divide. Good advice around the forum on how to divide.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

They sound fairly healthy, but they're likely so inactive because they're cold and a little stressed.....but don't worry too much. They should perk up once they are in heated tanks and they settle into their new home. 
Also, watch how much you're feeding them....its best to regulate how much you give these fish rather then letting them eat however much they can in a minute or two like other species as bettas are prone to bloating and SBD(Swim Bladder Disorder). As a staple diet, they should be fed a good quality pellet like Omega One or New Life Spectrum about 2-4 pellets twice per day. For a little variety, you can also feed them some frozen or freeze-dried blood worms or brine shrimp 1-2 times per week as a treat, but be cautious when feeding freeze-dried as it is known to cause bloating issues sometimes.

Ahhh, sadly yes....generally, 2 fish, especially male and female, means twice the cost I'm afraid.
With a female and a male....divided tanks can be a little more tricky. You would practically need an NPT(Natrual Planted Tank.....a setup planted heavily with all live plants)and some pretty good filtration in a 10+ gallon to filter out the hormones the male will produce doesn't bother the female and cause her to be constantly eggy. 

I would suggest getting two s separate setups for each for now unless you want to dive into setting up a 10+ gallon NPT. 

Yes, a 2.5 is about the smallest you can get a heater in and heat fairly safely. Some people manage with 1 gallons, but they can be difficult to heat stability and long term its best to go with something 2.5+ anyway. 
With a 2.5-5 gallon, provided you are willing to make the proper water changes, you don't necessarily need a filter. However, in anything about 5+ gallons I would suggest a filter so you can cycle your tank. Your typical HOB(hang on back)filter, baffled with some panty hose or filer sponge attached with a rubber band, should be sufficient filter-wise, but I would also suggest looking into Sponge filters. They don't produce as much current, which the bettas like, and they don't suck in and rip fins like some HOB filters are known to do(though you can baffle the intake....they make a filter sponge that fits quite well over most filter intakes). If you can stand the extra noise that an air pump makes, sponge filters are a good option to think about at least.

Price-wise it all depends on what sort of tank you go for. Theres your typical glass rectangular tanks, which are sold in kits at 5-10 gallons for about $30-$40 like bamsuddenimpact said. This comes with a hood, light, and HOB filter....but you'll still need to buy a separate heater, substrate, and decor and all that.
If you would prefer to stick with something smaller, there are these Aqueon Mini-bow kits(same deal...hood, light, filter)that are 2.5-5 gallons that are about $40. 
If you're really looking to save money and you don't mind the look so much, another option are the Medium-Large sized Kritter/Pet Keepers. The Medium is about 2 gallons and the Large is about 3-5 gallons and they run about $9-$12. They can be safely heated and you can even stick a little sponge filter in there if you'd like.
Like I mentioned before, there is also the 2-2.5 gallon drum bowls that are about $20 each.

There are also lots of other 2-5 gallon kits you can get....look around, compare prices, read reviews, see what you like and what fits into your budget. Also you can hunt around local thrift stores or craigslist for cheap used tank setups if you really want to save some money. 
One thing you definitely don't want to get cheaply though is the heater....for the most part, you're generally getting what you pay for with heaters. A good, fully submersible, adjustable one is generally going to run you about $15-$20 depending on the wattage....though if you're going with a 2.5-4 gallon tank I've seen a nice highly recommended Elite heater on Amazon for around $13(not sure if that includes shipping or not)if you'd be willing to buy online. 

I'm not sure if the Britta filter would do any good, but if anything it'd probably do more harm then good. Generally just plain ol' tap water conditioned with a good conditioner like Prime(which works instantly, by the way)is the way to go since tap water, most of the time, contains minerals that are good for the fish. Unless your tap water is just completely atrocious and unusable for anything, even if you don't drink it, it should be just fine for your fish once conditioned.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

So it's not a good idea to put the male and the female together in a tank with a separator?

My wife is going to be pissed when she hears that we're going to have to buy two separate tanks for them. She intended on getting the small fish bowls because they looked nice and took up no room. And she's going to yell at me and blame me for it. I know it. She's of the school of thought that they're perfectly fine in bowls.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

You don't have to have a filter. I keep mine in critter keepers and heaters work well in them. I have a 10 watt non adjustable heater in one and Tetra non adjustable heaters in the others.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes, Its probably not best to put them in even a divided tank together in your standard artificially planted setup.

Well....I'm afraid there isn't much to be done there except maybe stick with something smaller 2.5-3 gallon tanks(though to be honest a 5 gallon really doesn't take up all that much room if you ask me...)that don't take up too much more space then the bowls if shes really set on saving space perhaps.
Bettas are hardy fish, they can survive in the small unheated bowls for a bit, but by no means are they truly 'fine'. A dog can survive in a small kennel if they're given food and water, a person can survive locked in a small room if they're given food and water.....its not too much different with a betta in a small unheated bowl. There is a big difference between surviving and thriving. Perhaps point that out to her? Show her the site? Look up a few different sources and show her? It also might not hurt to point out that she did bring home two living, breathing creatures and, just like any other pet, they deserve proper care in order to live their lives full and healthy. At least....thats the approach I take with my parents. They generally shut up after that....xD

Best of luck.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

We might be able to get away with one tank. The girl has hardly moved since last night (unless she really likes to just float up at the top of the side of the bowl with her fins all closed). I think she's taken a turn for the worse. She's pretty listless and tapping on the tank doesn't budge her. Or... she could be sleeping.

Just one more thing that makes me feel like I'm in a race against time.

(edit. Poked her. Nothing. Put a tiny speck of treat food in the bowl. It's a miracle! She's nomming on it like mad! Maybe she was just bored and was like "meh" when I tried to rouse her. Or she sleeps really deeply)


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## starrlamia (May 3, 2012)

you can get heaters for bowls, 
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4455060


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

It sounds to me like shes probably just very cold.....any idea what the temp could possibly be?

Depending on the size of the bowl, heaters like that could very easily over or under heat. A few people have had success with them, but really if you live in a place that gets cold with very frequent temp fluctuations thats not the best heater to get. I wouldn't recommend that.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

I have no idea of the temp. The heater thermometer in the apartment reads 75 degrees but who knows how accurate it is? The problems in that this apartment has central air so the temperature fluctuates. For some reason, the heater will make the apartment a little overly hot, shut off, wait till it gets chilly, then turn on again. It's never a uniform temperature in here. And I also know that it got really cold in here last night which makes me fear for tonight because we're supposed to get a frost. We need to get these two into heated tanks.


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## starrlamia (May 3, 2012)

you can wrap the bowls in towels to help keep some warmth in.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Water temp is generally a few degrees bellow room temp anyway, so even if it is really about 75 in there it'll be a little colder in the bowls....which explains the inactivity and clamping. Thats very typical of a cold betta, and especially if the temp dropped down significantly in the night its no wonder she wasn't moving. I generally don't move myself if my room gets too cold. xD

With a place like that.....your best bet with a heats is something fully submersible and adjustable with a thermostat(always best to have a thermometer to monitor temp though as the thermostats aren't always accurate depending on brand of heater and tank size and whatnot). They're the best at keeping the water nice and steady, even if the room temp fluctuates frequently.

Best of luck getting these guys into new homes, and keep us updated!


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

I was reading on another site that it's best to give a betta at least a 5 gallon tank for heat regulation and overall health. 
If this is true, with two tanks and nowhere to put two of them, it's going to be tough and expensive. Man. I wish she hadn't bought a male and female. Then I could at least divide one tank.

She's SO going to yell at me for making her do this. Hehe.

I got my apartment temp up to a little over 75 and the girl is doing better. I however, am sweltering.

As for doing the transfer to the new tanks. What's the best way to go about doing this? My wife tossed away the cups they came in. Should I heat up the water in the new tank properly, put the betta in a zip lock bag or something and float it to let the temp acclimate? Or do I get the tank to room temp first, transfer the fish directly, and then turn on the heater? Would the heater heat too rapidly for that?


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Obviously bigger is always a little better, and while a lot of keepers find that 5+ gallons is a good size to shoot for, your fish can be just fine and live just as long in something that holds at least 2-2.5 gallons of water provided its heated and you preform the necessary maintenance(twice weekly water changes of 1 50% and 1 100% at least, though I find my fish are a little more active and perky with an extra 25%-50% per week in an artificially planted tank, if unfiltered)on it. So no, thats not necessarily true for all cases.

If the turning up the heat is really really bothering you, you could wrap the bowls in towels like starrlamia suggested and turn the heat down again. It will help at least a little bit for now probably.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Yeah. We went out and looked at 2 gallon tanks. With everything that we would need, it's completely out of our price range and my wife says that she's not blowing all that money on two fish. She's not upgrading anything. We couldn't find any heaters for the bowl size that we have and the bowls they had at the various shops were no bigger than the ones we have. We've moved the bowl to the bedroom that retains heat a LITTLE better (but still gets cold at night). Basically. If we bought all that we would need to set up these two bettas, we're talking almost $100 when you include the tanks, the heaters, the filters, etc... She says that she's not spending that kind of money on two three dollar fish. There were bowl heaters, but they were made for much bigger bowls (They were non adjustable and were for 2 gallon bowls which they didn't even carry at any of the stores for less than $20 each) and would cook the fish in the smaller bowls that we have ( I think that the male's bowl 3/4 of a gallon and the female's bowl is like a half gallon.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

how sad! Can you rehome the fish, or give them to another fish keeper?


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Nope. We're stuck with them. My wife likes them in the bowls. She says that she's always kept them in bowls when she was in college and isn't about to change. She got pissed at me when I took her down to the stores to show her what she really needed. She refuses to spend any money and said basically "They're THREE DOLLAR FISH!!!!" 
It doesn't help that aquarium stuff is so damn pricy. Heck when we priced things out, a 10 gallon tank setup with everything we needed was as expensive as two 2.5 gallon tanks and no one had heaters for those. The only tanks the heaters everyone had were at least 5 gallons AND since she bought one male and one female, we need two tanks. The cost of having two five gallon tanks $15 each, heaters $15 each, cleaning supplies $15-$20. For two fish. She flat out said "NO. The bowls are fine."
Both of us have different takes on "pets". I'm more of the "You have to care for and coddle them". She's of the "It's not a person. It's a freakin' fish. They die. Get over it." kind of person.

At least I tried. 
It's not going to stop me from looking for tanks at Goodwill and Salvation Army. I've seen them show up there from time to time.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

You certainly did try, and I'm sure you did your very best. :/ Some people really just don't want to understand, no matter what sort of logic and facts you put in front of them....
Sadly, in reality there is no 'cheap pet' as sadly so many people are led to believe bettas and other fish are in particular...

If funds are really the biggest issue, there are cheaper options. Like you said, Goodwill, Salvation Army, other thrift stores, Craigslist.....Sometimes you can find 5-10 gallons for just a few dollars. 
Also, did you look at the Kritter/Pet Keepers? The Medium size are just about $8-$9 each and holds about 2 gallons. You could toss in a couple of silk plants, a terracotta clay pot(less then a dollar at most thrift stores; best cheap caves EVER), a heater, and there ya go. Might not be as 'decorative' as bowls....but its cheap.

Also.....if you're really pressed for cash and you could stand to wait a couple of weeks for shipping, these are the heaters I use in my 2.5-4 gallon tanks.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/271031514998?item=271031514998&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160

Just $6 each and they work fantastically. Only problem is the shipping time and the cord is a little short, but that can be fixed with a small extension cord. 

With those heaters and the medium sized Kritter Keepers, each full setup, including decor, would cost around $20-$25....its bare minimum, but it will work just fine, and its certainly much better then the tiny cold bowls. Plus there is always the option of upgrade later on down the rode if you are able. 

I hope this helps...


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

I showed her the kritter keepers and she said that they were horribly tacky and doesn't want that on display in the apartment. She's a bit obsessive compulsive and she NEEDS something that looks pleasing to HER. She hates aquariums and thinks they looks horrible. 
I told her that in that case she shouldn't have gotten tropical fish and that just got me in trouble and had her storming out of the store. She sees fish as cheap.. and then they die.
It also didn't help that all the stores were full to the brim of those "tiny BETTA KEEPERS". She was telling me over and over again, "Why, if these things are SOOOOO bad for them, why do they sell these?"


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Well.....you may just have to stick to thrift store hunting for larger bowls or something. You can also look at craft stores, or the craft section of Walmart for some more 'bowl-like' looking containers that are a little larger and don't have that 'tacky tank' look. 

Sadly, those small tanks are all a marketing scheme, playing into the myth of bettas being easy, cheap pets that can live in tiny containers because in the wild they're found in puddles......none of which is true. Its really really sad how misunderstood these animals are....

Well I wish you the best of luck...and I do hope for the sake of these poor little bettas that you are able to find something larger and heatable for them at some point, or that you can rehome them. :/ I'm sorry you're stuck with this situation, it sounds like you would be a fantastic betta keeper if you were able.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

your wife... sigh...


I have a setup that doesnt need a tank and will keep your fish alive. (note key word, "alive" not "happy")










So you will need
1/2gallon+ jar
a 25w hagen elite heater ($10 from amazon)
a plant that can grow with its roots in water ( I have a lucky bamboo) 
Maybe some java moss if you can find.

This is usually my temporary setup for an extra fish... 
but as a permanant home. it is very lacking.

if your plant doesnt have a good root system, you will need to do 100% waterchanges everyday until it grows roots

after that...
you will need to do a 100% waterchange every second day.

edit: those $6 heaters work very well as well...

however shipping does take 3-4 weeks. by then it'd be well intothe cold season

and i think my tank looks better than a bowl anyday....
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/12/anazapyq.jpg


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Blacklight said:


> My wife is going to be pissed when she hears that we're going to have to buy two separate tanks for them. She intended on getting the small fish bowls because they looked nice and took up no room. And she's going to yell at me and blame me for it. I know it. She's of the school of thought that they're perfectly fine in bowls.


None of my dam business. But then I'm famous for injecting my opinion when not asked.

Seems to me that you have other issues to work on besides fish. It might be better if you eliminate this source of contention. 

Where did she get those fish? Any reputable pet dealer is willing to accept return of an unsuitable pet. Even if the dealer will not refund the purchase price, well, "It's only a three-dollar fish." So eat the six bucks and get rid of the problem. Lot's cheaper than a divorce. And a lot less stress on your relationship than what's going now. In fact, I think it's small price to pay for a valuable lesson in how to get along.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

There's nothing wrong with the marriage side. It just a difference of opinion about how to care for fish and how much money to spend to take care of them. She thinks I'm crazy to suggest all that stuff just for a fish. The fact that we're financially strapped and I have a very expensive surgery ahead of me has put a financial strain on us. She fell for the "Bettas are easy fish and don't need any room or anything other than a bowl" thing. Of course I wasn't there at the time. I've had aquarium experience, but not betta experience, but I, unlike her, research the snot out of any pet I purchase, often doing days of research. For her it was pretty much. She wanted a cute fish and the pet store people gave her a couple of fish and a couple of bowls. The only fish I would ever put in a bowl might be a fish like a goldfish that can handle the temperature changes... and even THAT's pushing it for me. 
Beyond the sticker shock for a REAL setup, I think she has an aversion for aquariums because her dad used her as a "helper monkey" when he worked on his tank and she REALLY resented it. She always had bowls for fish and never, ever considered an actual aquarium. So it's basically a total difference in what we think qualifies as fish care. She sees them as expendable. I see them as animals that require care and respect. She's quite upset at me because I'm challenging her belief and she feels like I'm trying to force her to spend all this money that we don't have.
Giving one of the bettas back to the pet store would not be a good idea. It would just go back into one of those horrid little cups and sit on a shelf until it died. So either way it's screwed. They stands a better chance here in a bowl that gives it somewhat decent swimming room than they does sitting on a shelf in a cup. As long as she keeps up with the water changes and hopefully it doesn't get too cold in here, hopefully they'll have a LITTLE bit of a better life than they had at the pet store.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

actually it might have a better life in the fish store, because the temperature is usually cool but steady. the water might or might not get changed... 
and it might be purchased by someone who can give it a gpod set up. too many variables to make claims here...


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I am sorry but your wife sounds like a b word.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Question. If I go with a 5 gallon critter keeper, would that require me to get a filter? Do filters fit on those things?
It's looking like I can do 2 5 gallon critter keepers with cheap heaters for about $65 (which is still probably going to be too much money for her, but I'm REALLY trying).


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

You can probably go cheaper. 
get a 5 gallon and divide it. you will need a binder and craft mesh. 
Yes get a filter, that way your tabk can cycle and you can get away with less water changes.

A larger kritter keeper at petco is around $15 (max)
hagen elite 25w heater off amazon is $10.
Azoo mignon 60 filter - $13

that's $38 so far.

Divider material is about $5

You might also need water conditioner, petco sells API water conditioner in small bottles. 2 drops/ gallon (very economical) $4

Fish food. you can get Hikari biogold right now to save on cash. $3

Decorations ... look in the local 99c store for some candle holders. they make great hidey holes.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

The problem with dividing it is that one Betta is male and the other is a female. I've been told that having them in the same tank, even with a divider is a bad idea because his hormones will agitate the female.

If this isn't true, I would have just got a single 10 gallon starter kit and a divider. It would save me so much money.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Blacklight said:


> The problem with dividing it is that one Betta is male and the other is a female. I've been told that having them in the same tank, even with a divider is a bad idea because his hormones will agitate the female.


I think there's divide opinion on this. But it might be better to be on the safe side....


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

If it's okay to have the male and female in the same tank with a divider, it will totally save me.
I'm looking all over, but I can't find much info on having a male/female in a divided tank. Everyone usually has males.

We just don't want them getting together and fighting or having kids or the female getting all eggy and sick.
And with a divided tank, do you need two filters, one for each side as I would imagine the screen would block the water flow? I've never had a divided tank.

If only she had bought two males or two females and not one of each.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

the mesh divider will allow water flow. if you position the HOB with the intake on one side and outlet on the other side, a good flow will be established on both sides.

You can do DIY lids for those kritter keepers, i find the ones that comes with them rather hideous...

pm oldfishlady about the female male thing. her experience is most trusted on the forum. starting a thread will just confuse you with the opinions from both sides.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Are there covers that will keep the bettas from jumping from the tank or over the divider also? I hear these guys can jump pretty high and aim REALLY well.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Goodness a bit happened while I was sleeping.....

I was the one who said females and males in a divided tank were not a good idea. HOWEVER it can be done with proper filtration and a crapton of live plants as well as diligent water changes to help filter out the hormones the male will produce. I do believe there was a whole big discussion on this a while back...
In an artificially planted, and possibly unfiltered, tank.....personally, I don't think its a very good idea. 

If you're going with the Kritter Keeper, no, you don't absolutely have to have a filter. You'll have to preform 100% water changes, but you can get away without a filter just fine.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

DragonFish said:


> In an artificially planted, and possibly unfiltered, tank.....personally, I don't think its a very good idea


I want to test this theory...


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

With the 'better safe then sorry' mentality that I have, thats just my personal opinion. I remember half-stocking that thread because it was something very interesting I hadn't heard of before, no one had ever mentioned these hormones with male and female divided tanks that I could recall and yet all of a sudden it kept popping up all over the forum. If I recall right, there was a whole big thread where a few moments, a couple very very experienced, debated and shared their experiences and whatnot......and I thought that in the end it was decided that a lot of live plants and good filtration was needed if one wanted to keep males and females in the same water because of hormones and whatnot.

I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy and overly-cautious then.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes better safe than sorry. Anyone who wants to "test" theories that could cause stress sickness or death upon an animal should think twice. I upgraded my BFs sisters fish's tank from 0.5 gallons to 1.5 gallons. IT DOES NOT TAKE UP MUCH ROOM. Bowls actually take up MORE room because of the awkward shape. Walmart sells a variety of tanks, some are the 3 gallon half moons, squares, etc which take up little room at all. . We took in her old tank to compare, keeping space in mind and found a tank that worked (btw the fish is more active and brighter colours popped up). If space is an issue one should avoid pets in general - but you now have two fishes, and it is t that bad to make a solution!!

I avoid male and female divided. I only have female and female, and male and male divided. That being said, 2.5-3 gallons minimal for something that you can heat... A 10 gallon COULD work if you allow filtration and some hardy plants such as java fern and moss, moss balls, sword, cambomba (more medium to high lighting for cambomba). Use fabric plants, and silk plants as well as one or more buddy holes for both sides. Clean appropriately and you won't have too much of a problem. I make sure the water level is low to avoid jumpers and yes you can fashion a cover to avoid high jumpers.

Good luck!


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

OH, and just something I keep forgetting to add...xD I shouldn't post things before I have my tea....

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/diy-aquarium/diy-aquarium-tank-dividers-21866/
^DIY craft mesh divider tutorial if you go that route. To make it a little more stable though, I'd suggest trimming it a tad so it fits snugly without bending too much and doubling up on the craft mesh in one divider, or if you get the 10 gallon a lot of people make two dividers and stick the filter and heater in the middle, I've heard this works very well to help keep them from jumping onto the others side(though I suppose if they're determined they'll jump both dividers, but hopefully you can catch them in the middle before that)and for even heat distribution.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> Yes better safe than sorry. Anyone who wants to "test" theories that could cause stress sickness or death upon an animal should think twice.


There's been so much talk about this, and people who've kept them together with no problems. OFL keeps her males and females together in one large tank...
ofcourse I'll pull the fish if they dont do well. I wont just sit there and watch them die, but I think too many people are kicking up a fuss without enough evidence.

just like using table salt instead of Aq salt, the fact that iodized salt is bad for fish and will cause death turned out to be pure speculation.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

I think its also important to remember that OFL is a very VERY experienced keeper and breeder and the tanks she keeps these fish in are large NPTs......


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

DragonFish said:


> I think its also important to remember that OFL is a very VERY experienced keeper and breeder and the tanks she keeps these fish in are large NPTs......


true, but it doesnt say anything about not keeping a female and a male together. The fact that she is keeping them together makes the possibility available.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

I was actually considering two dividers with the filter and heater in the middle actually. I think a setup like that would pretty much give equal water filtration as well as serve as a buffer zone if one of these two got determined and jumpy.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Blacklight said:


> I was actually considering two dividers with the filter and heater in the middle actually. I think a setup like that would pretty much give equal water filtration as well as serve as a buffer zone if one of these two got determined and jumpy.


I think the greater betta community here still advises against putting the male and the female together...


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

aokashi said:


> true, but it doesnt say anything about not keeping a female and a male together. The fact that she is keeping them together makes the possibility available.


I also never said it wasn't possible, and neither did Sena by the way....I do believe actually in several of my posts I say that in a tank with good filtration, live plants, and diligent water changes it is possible. Sena also said that it could work as well.....with live plants, good filtration, and proper water changes. 

But in a tank with artificial plants and no filtration...it isn't the best idea. 



Blacklight said:


> I was actually considering two dividers with the filter and heater in the middle actually. I think a setup like that would pretty much give equal water filtration as well as serve as a buffer zone if one of these two got determined and jumpy.


I've heard fantastic things about this sort of setup....if I didn't have my divided tanks already all set up, I would probably do this myself. xD
Best of luck!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That actually is a good idea considering if anyone breaches a divider it won't matter :lol: it'll be a trial and error thing - but you can make it work if you are willing to put some effort in of course.

And exactly I never said impossible.. It is, but you MUST be cautious and think to yourself: is it best for the fish, or for you? I work towards the fish more than myself... Say if I liked a set up but my fish were stressed I would change said set up... Fish's needs before personal enlightenment (if that is the right word lol  )


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

lol, Id say its best for future fish keepers and their fish, so they can work with solid evidence that their fish might or might not be safe with a certain setup 

and I didnt mean that you meant it was impossible either


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Well, paying for a 10 gallon starter kit with a couple of dividers is a lot cheaper than just getting two tanks. I'm going to have to go with this option. From what I gather, there seems to be not much consensus on the male/female shared tank other than get a decent filter in there and get some live plants in there which is something that you should probably do anyway.

The backup plan is that the tiny female can go back in the bowl and the male can have his run of the tank.

Buying two separate tanks doubles the expense and pushes things WAY beyond our budget level. Sure they have cheap small tanks, but after you add up all the stuff you need for them, it really pushes things beyond out means.

There's not many solutions to get out of this cheaply. Aquarium stuff, by the time you add in all the accessories and stuff you need is an expensive initial investment. Much more than two fish bowls.

I think as far as my wife is concerned, she just wanted a couple of simple fish where the total cost would be around $20 or less and be done with it and now I'm hitting her with "You need this and that and this and that" and the price tag is up around $65-$70 at the cheapest. 

I can't wait to get them into something heated. In order to get their bowls the proper healthy temperature, I'm pretty much roasting in my apartment. I have them in the bedroom that retains heat more consistently and they're just a tiny bit above 75 degrees. The problem is that to accomplish this, the ambient air in this old crappy apartment is up near almost to 80.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

I would still agree that a divided tank with a male and a female isn't the best idea, if only to be better safe then sorry, but if you've taken all options into account and crunched the numbers and think a divided 10 gallon setup is the best for you and your fish....then you can give it a go. By this point I'm sure you're aware of the risks and have a decent idea of how to make it work out for the best.....as many easy to care for live plants as you can get your hands on(take a look at our Planted Tank section on the forum, lots of great info there....if you think you can get away with it, might want to look into setting up an NPT as well), the double divider, good filtration, maybe an extra water-only partial change per week or two and whatnot....so all I can really say is good luck and be cautious. I really hope everything works out well for you and your fish.


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## lauraannq (Oct 11, 2012)

by the way dramaqueen... the the sketch of the betta!

now to get a heater for my 1 gal bowl... though pet smart would have the one they had on line.. nope...darn... little guy seems happy but the tank is 72 degrees...

and as for the wife and bowls..she must be related to my daughter...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, like you said you do have bowls as a back up. Check around KIJIJI and thrift stores for deals  it sure is expensive, agreed, it's too bad you don't live near me lol I'd share


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Fantastic news! We found a sale on 5 gallon tank kits. My wife bought two. We set up our two fishies in them this afternoon and it's amazing the difference. The boy is zooming all over the place. He likes to hang out behind or underneath the filter where the intake is (I have the filters set to pump as low as they can go and the water coming out of it is pretty much a little trickle). I think he likes the current for some reason. He's zooming all over. Much better than the listlessness he had in the bowl. Sure, he's a little agitated and he's still clamped up a little bit, but he's much more lively now. He's still a little antisocial and he's not flaring at things (He used to puff up at my wife's purple pens). He'll probably calm down once he gets used to the tank.

The BIGGEST change is in the girl. Before, in the bowl, I used to think that she was dead and floating on the top of the water. Her fins are now all open and she's swimming around all over and she looks really pretty. Her colors are amazing. She's a lot more friendly than the boy. She seems to really like people. She's curious and comes right up to the glass when we stop by to look at her. 

The one thing left for us to get is a live plant or two. 

Step one complete. Now we just have to get them safely through the tank cycle process alive.

What's everyone's opinions on those 7 day feeder pellet things that disolve in the tank and reveal the food as they dissolve? We also have some Omega Betta flake food for them.

The other question I have. The filters are those submerged ones that look like plastic cups that hang on the side. There's JUST ENOUGH room in them to house a wayward jumping Betta. Will they tend to stay away from jumping into it? I don't want to wake up one day to find a betta stuck in a filter. Hehe
I plan to also put a mesh netting over the hole in the back here the electric cords come out.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

yay! hows the wife?

XD

I'm happy for you and the fishies 

you can try to cover all the intakes with a sponge to prevent the fish from bein sucked in. honestly I think the current at the outlet should deterr a betta from jumping, but better safe than sorry... is to find a way to block passage into the filter.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

The only thing that I'm not sure is an issue or not is that the thermometers in the tank are reading a perfect 75 degrees. The heaters seem to be doing their job keeping it stable at 75. Am I in the proper ballpark or do I need to return these heaters and get a better one? These are submersible, non adjustable ones. They were the only ones we could find anywhere for 5 gallon tanks. All the adjustible ones we found were for much larger setups. Is 75 too cold for them or am I in the proper ballpark?

The wife is fine and she's enjoying the tanks. My dad and I are going to get her a Petco gift card for her birthday.
So. Happy ending, if we're doing everything right and the fishies survive the cycling process, things will work out well.

The boy fish REALLY loves to go under the filter where the intake is. I think the current from the intake feels good to him. He's always going under there and rubbing up against the bottom of it and then he goes up and seems to play in the tiny current where the water is coming out of the filter. Strange little fish.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

75 is borderline, cool. should be fine if it remains steady  but seriously... the hagen elite 25w from amazon does a great job. 

how much did you spend on these heaters?


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

We spent about $17 on each of them. They're self regulating and are meant to keep the tank at 78 + or - 2 degrees.

I believe that they're Tetra HT10's. There's no model number on them but it says on it that it's for 2-15 gallon tanks.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Blacklight said:


> We spent about $12 on them. They're self regulating and are meant to keep the tank at 78 + or - 2 degrees.


well $12 total is not a bad price. I'd say keep them and see.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Re: male + filter -- The filter flow might still be a tad high for him and his floofy fins (two of my males cannot stand any flow at all, it's a PITA). If you check out the guides to baffling filters (it's easy!) in the stickies on betta care, you'll see it's not hard to do, and your fish will probably enjoy a lower flow. I have taken to using sponge filters of late, and they are brilliant if you use a flow valve on the airline. 

Females are awesome. Mine likes a slightly higher flow (smaller fins) and is totally a darling to interact with. Glad you're enjoying yours. 

Re the feeder thing - No. Get some high quality pellets and feed small amounts twice a day. If you are away fr a weekend, your bettas are better off not eating than having food mussing up their tank constantly. If you're away for longer, try to have someone with a brain come round to feed them once a day (a brain is important, people do such dumb things around fish).

Your temp's a little low still but not awful, don't panic. I use dymax adjustable heaters and swear by them, and you will find adjustable sooo much better. But if the budget's tight, and it's not freezing where you are, it can wait, IMO. 

I had to giggle a bit at "my wife just wanted simple fish in a bowl".. no such thing, there really isn't, not if you care about your pets. But what you will find is that these little guys in a good, appropriate environment will repay you 100 fold, in the enjoyment they bring. 

I have spent hundreds and hundreds on mine, over time, and I am a sole, disabled parent on a fixed income. I just get things as I can afford them, here and there, and look for bargains. I do without the hairdresser, nails done (who wants to put fancy nails in a fish tank anyway? lol). I'd rather enjoy my fish and do without the fripperies of life, if it comes to it. 

For plants --- good idea is to join a fish forum that has a lot of members local to you and ask if anyone's selling easy-care, low-tech plants. You will find people quite generous usually, and it works out wayyy cheaper than buying from a store (and you won't get non-aquatic plants...stores can be bad that way).


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

We tend to keep the apartment a little bit on the cool side here (also around 75 degrees). So these heaters are pretty much maintaining room temperature (or they stopped working. I can't really tell) They were warm when I first put them in but they're cold now, but they also have thermostats that turn them on and off automatically so they could be running at their optimal temps.

None of the stores carried adjustible heaters for 5 gallon tanks for some reason. They were all self regulating. All the adjustable ones were for much larger tanks.

The other thing that I was surprised that I couldn't find was something that was actually common in pet stores and aquarium shops around here 20 years ago when I was doing my fish keeping. Those floating or clip to the sides "temperature acclimation tanks" that you use for transferring fish from one tank to another to get them acclimated to the temperature. The one I had looked like a breeding tank, but it had little pontoon looking things on the side so you would put the fish in it and float it in the tank and then sink it to release the fish. NO ONE carries those any more. Those come in REAL handy for when you do a full tank cleaning and you take the fish out and you have to get them re-acclimated to the temperature again.

(edit: I just read in the manual to wait for a total of 24 hours for the heater to reach it's proper temperature. Of course, my wife didn't follow that rule, but then again, as the heaters are cold, they've probably reached the final temperature)

Also, I really think he just likes the current from that filter. He's not attacking it or anything. He just seems to like to go under where the intake slits are and he'll sit there or he'll rub up against the slits where the water sucks in. He looks like he's scratching his back. He's not panicking or freaking out there or anything. and he REALLY seems to be playing with that trickle of water rather than having trouble swimming in it. He just goes up to the spot where the trickle hits the water and he likes to poke his nose into it. There's BARELY any current from that filter. I have that thing turned down to the max.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Both of these fish have TONS of energy now. The boy seems to have also taken up something like surfing. I have the water down an inch or so from the top. He seems to like to zip really fast to the point where his body will go up above the water. It's not really jumping, but it looks kind of like he's body surfing and he'll zoom from one end of the tank to the other like that.. I've never seen such an active and crazy fish before. I don't know if this is a bad thing or if he's just really excited about his new home and is playing. 

Have any of you seen a body surfing betta before?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

sounds like a unique one!
mine loveees to surf the filter current when he has nothing better to do!

arent you glad you got those tanks!


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm VERY happy. My wife is happy (thankfully...)
The fish seem very happy and super energetic now instead of their prior listless bowl existence.

Yeah. This guy is DEFINITELY a character. So is the girl. When my wife picked them out, these two were REALLY active and lively. When we first got them, the boy was definitely more of a character. What was funny was that when my wife went up to his bowl, he would just swim up to her and look at her. Whenever I came ANYWHERE in his eyesight, he was all getting excited, and was displaying at me. And I mean ANY TIME I WAS IN THE ROOM. I could have been sitting on the couch at the other side of the room and he would be pushed up against the glass glaring at me. If I moved, he'd freak out and start puffing up at me. He would even watch me if I stood at the end of the hallway leading to the room. He must have great eyesight for a fish.

I seem to be getting a "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!" vibe from the boy now.

I don't know if he hurt himself somehow though because the last time I saw him display a couple days ago, only one side of his gills popped out and the other side didn't. I haven't seen him display since. Is this a bad thing or is it just that he was feeling cold or cramped in the bowl? He's not displaying at all in the fish tank now.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

his gill could be hurt by ammonia build up... or maybe it is simply temporary...
observe it for a while and any behavourial changes.

I do advise you to begin a fish in cycle now. Assuming you are getting plants....by doing 50% water changes every week. and most LFS will test your water for you (or you an purchase a test kit) 

test the water in a month and see if it has cycled(ammonia-0 nitrite-0 nitrate-some) when it does cycle, you can begin to do 25% weekly WCs.

I really do recommend getting water wisteria. it is absolutely beautiful and will grow very fast...

I gave my friend one small stem 3 months ago and it has now taken over his 10gallon tank...

he doesnt even change the water any more (not recommended but thats how well the wisteria works as an ammonia sink).
in fact he treats this tank with absolute neglect! lol.


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Should I wait for the tank to finish cycling before I add those plants?

I don't think he was suffering ammonia build up. When he was in the bowl, my wife changed that water religiously every other day. I'm thinking he probably hurt it somehow. He's still eating and I think he may be starting to bubble under the little bridge that my wife put in there. It has a lip on the underside so I imagine it's perfect for holding his bubbles. There's a bunch of little bubbles under there now and as I mentioned, he's absolutely full of energy at the moment. I don't see any obvious warning signs that anything is wrong other than that.
I think he's seeing his reflection in the glass too. I don't think he was used to that in the bowl.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

nah, just add the plants. if the plants establish themselves well enough, you wont even need to bother with a cycle 

Just observe him then. If he's acting fine I wouldn't worry about it. also make sure to give them a regular day night cycle (lights on/ off at same hours of the day)

I really want to see some photos! lol


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

Here's the boy. I had a REALLY HARD time getting him to cooporate for the camera. You can't really make it out too much in the picture, but he has a beautiful mix of red and dark purple. When he turns one way, he's bright red, and when he faces another direction, he gets a kind of pastel purple hue.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

veryy handsome! he has really nice long ventrals too! and that white tip on the ventrals are soooo cute XD
I can sort of see the puple/violet iridescence


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## Blacklight (Oct 11, 2012)

If only I could get a picture of him body surfing, but he's just too fast and there's no way I'd be able to get the damn camera focused on him.

I can't photograph the girl. She's in the bedroom. My wife is also in the bedroom sleeping. She probably wouldn't take kindly to me flashing a flash bulb in there while she's trying to sleep. 

I'm so happy that my wife finally came around, read up on the fish and took appropriate measures. It was also nice that we got these tank kits on sale. She was rather overwhelmed with everything prior.

I just wish I could get the tank temperature up just a hare more. 75 degrees is right on the line. The fish seem to be doing fine with it at that temp though. I think this is the first time since we got her that I've seen the girl swimming around with open fins.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

XD Im glad she and you have done so much for the fish!
it isss getting late ( or early, however you define 5am) Im off to bed too! gnite ! so happy this story has a happy ending ! ^____^


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Awesome! Has anyone mentioned cycling? I'll just plunge into it anyway. 

In tanks 5 gallons and over it is reccomended to cycle your tank. You can do this fish in or fish out. It doesn't really matter. It is basicly trying to get a stable bacteria cycle going. All the work on your part is doing maybe 2 water changes a week for around a month.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

And I second the motion of avoiding those silly 7 day feeder things. Such a mess! Used them once in a community tank and the snail hogged it anyways. It doesn't help one bit... The automatic feeders (that hang off the side) I have heard horror stories of them malfunctioning or falling in, causing a terrible mess as well.

The thing with bettas, is that a couple days won't hurt them. I say if you are gone for more than 3 days have someone pop in and drop a couple pellets in to each. Pellets are better than flakes for that reason, and the reason of easier measurement and not as messy 

Glad to see they perked up


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

Ahh, so wonderful to hear the wife came around and you were able to get these guys in proper tanks!! Really, there is no comparison to the behavior of a betta in a proper environment, its such a huge difference from their behavior in the small unheated bowls....

I think everyone covered most of the bases and answered your questions, but I thought I'd link you to an awesome thread about cycling your tank that might help some.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=107771

Also.....I would just like to point out that you can go up to 50 watts safely with a 5 gallon tank with a heater. I know it can sometimes be a little hard to find the smaller wattages depending on what petstores you have available, but you can go a little larger so long as its adjustable and whatnot. 
75 is obviously not the end of the world of course, certainly much better then 70, but I would personally return those heaters(I've heard that those Tetra heaters, even if you get lucky and get one that keeps some kind of stable temp, tend to crap out and stop working randomly as well....they're really unreliable long-term)and either get something a little larger thats adjustable, or you could order those Elites from Amazon. Thats just my advice though.....


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I agree. I use tetra sometimes... But they need to be replaced almost twice a year which in turn is just as expensive or more so than buying a good quality heater.  Jäger brand is great... I used old ones and they never died on me. We use a "smart" heater which was 30.00 for 100. Watt, and it can be fully submerged. Shop around  every store is priced differently. The same heater we got for 30 would have been double at the small store in town.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I have a 10 gallon with a guppy, two platies and five espei rasbora. I use a 100W topfin heater in there. I have had it since December 2011, no problems at all. I also have a 5 gallon with a betta and a nerite snail and a mystery snail (new addition) and I have used the topfin 50W since february 2012, no problems. I just set up another tank, this time a 5.5 gallon. My mom got the ehater this time. For some reason she picked out the most expensive and highest quality one. LOL It is the hagen elite. Keeps the tank a nice and toasty 80F.


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## DragonFish (Mar 31, 2009)

I've seen a lot of people use the Top Fin heaters, and most seem to not have any issues, but I'd just like to share that I had a very bad experience with the brand.....I'm convinced it is what contaminated one of my 5 gallons and nearly did in my fish. I noticed my boys weren't acting right when I first set everything up, and there was an odd smell coming from the tank, so I broke it all down and rinsed everything again....and the rubber end of the heater popped off to reveal and absolutely FOUL smelling rubbery glue substance. With how that stuff smelled, there is no way that could have been safe to put in a tank....

I may have just gotten a bad heater, like I said lots of people seem to have success with them, but I personally stay clear of them now. Just offering up my experience....


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## homegrown terror (Aug 6, 2012)

ZooMed now actually makes undertank pads similar to their Reptitherm pads specifically for bettas and other small-tank inhabitants. i don't know if they're adjustable, but if you find they warm the water too much, you can hook them up to a dimmer (like you would use for a desk lamp) and regulate the temperature that way. with an unadjusted or jury-rigged heater, especially an undertank heater, i'd make sure you have a VERY accurate thermometer in the tanks, as you'll have to be very careful to monitor their output. i do, however, agree that you'd be best served by shelling out $30 for a nice 10gal and then another $12 for a divider, and putting a standard submersible heater in it.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I actually have a digital thermometer, which tells you the temperature to he decimal point  whenever getting heaters test them before use... Use a good quality surge protector to not only protect the heater (and filters) from dying but also your fish!!


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