# Breeding question: time /age for rehoming/ veiltails



## brittanym. (May 4, 2020)

Hey guys! I am very new to this forum but you guys seem very helpful to newbies and I have lots of questions that I can't seem to find elsewhere. I would love to start breeding betta fish, and I am wondering how long I would need to wait until I can begin giving away babies. I know this is assuming I actually produce any, but I would like to know how long the process will take before I begin. Additionally, I do not plan on making any profit from the process, just hoping to donate. Would it be silly to breed two veiltails? I know they saturate the market but I do not know if there are any breeding complications that may contribute to popular dislike for them. Thanks!


----------



## Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. (Sep 30, 2019)

Veiltails are very common, but healthy, smart, and less aggressive than other betta types. Keep in mind the veiltail gene is the most dominant betta gene, so breeding anything with a veiltail will produce veiltail fry. It might be cheaper to breed two veiltails rather than breed a koi plakat, delta tail, or crowntail with a veiltail and get koi colored. (Or whatever the color blend would be) veiltails

What breeding essentials do you have?


----------



## brittanym. (May 4, 2020)

*Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish *Thank you for your response!! I currently have a sponge filter, a 10 gallon tank breeding tank (as well as a tank for male and female), a male betta, live plants for hiding spots and a heater. I know that I am in need of live food and a female (obviously) as well as maybe some tools like pipettes and small nets.


----------



## Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. (Sep 30, 2019)

You have the basics covered, besides the live food. I have an issue with getting a female also, all the fish stores are closed or out of bettas.


----------



## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Veiltails are not any less aggressive or smarter than other bettas, it comes down to the individual betta's personality. And health depends on genetics as well as their living conditions- some mutations, like Dragonscales and Double-Tails, are linked to specific issues, but in general it has more to do with the specific background of the betta, not its tail type.


In general I don't recommend breeding "just because", only if you have a plan in mind- ideally, one that would improve the species. But that's an opinion, not a rule.

Veiltails are very common, and can't be shown in IBC shows, so there isn't much demand for them. But if the colors are good and the fish is healthy, there's still plenty of people who enjoy VTs- they happen to be my favorite type of long tailed betta, TBH. Mixing tail types isn't a great idea in general, since the resulting fry may be unpredictable (yes, VT is dominant, but can you guarantee neither parent is carrying a gene for another tail type? Plakat gene affects length not shape, etc)- and thus hard to categorize- and if anyone breeds one of your fry or you yourself decide to keep breed from that line, there are now hidden genetic surprises to deal with.

You also need to be prepared for potentially a few hundred fry, all needing to be in an individual container which is kept clean and warm. Most newbie breeders end up with far less survivors, but you could get lucky if your care is good because bettas produce a _lot_ of eggs.


To answer your original question, most bettas at pet stores are sold at about six months for males, a bit younger at four to five months for females. They are generally considered in their prime in terms of fin condition and near or at "show size", but not fully grown- that's why so many bettas keep maturing after they arrive home. But bettas who aren't kept in optimal conditions tend to grow slower, so you might not see your fry reach the same size/condition as a store fish until later on.

In general, you can sell or give away a healthy betta as soon as a) you have decided you don't want to keep them for your own purposes (as a pet, future breeding stock, whatever) and b) they are eating regular prepared foods like flakes and pellets. Most people don't want a betta who is only eating live foods, and pet stores aren't really prepared to handle that level of care either.


----------



## Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. (Sep 30, 2019)

Rana said:


> Veiltails are not any less aggressive or smarter than other bettas


Oh, japanesefightingfish.org said in one of there posts that the VT was the least aggressive type of bettas.


----------



## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. said:


> Oh, japanesefightingfish.org said in one of there posts that the VT was the least aggressive type of bettas.


Nope! It's possible in theory for someone to selectively breed a strain with lowered aggression over time- and they'd make a fortune probably, since a lot of casual owners don't prefer aggressive fish- but there's no real difference in temperament associated with tail types since all bettas generally come from the same gene pool. Tail types are a superficial difference, kind of like saying people would have different personalities because their hair is curly or straight.

The only temperament difference I know of which could be associated with a tail-type is Plakats being more active, and IMO that has more to do with them not being physically weighed down by long fins than their genetics affecting their personality, especially since females of all types tend to show the same increase in activity.


----------



## CosmicSyringe (Jul 20, 2013)

If you guys still don't have females by June, would you want to buy a female from my spawn?  I'm thinking about trying to ship bettas for the first time.


----------



## Mr Grumpy (Feb 28, 2020)

Hi

I am with Rana on this breeding for the sake of breeding is a waste of time, If you are going to breed Bettas I say do it but do it right, do your research on genetics and what you need to raise fry to a point where you can sell them and remember with males the longer you hang onto them the more they grow and the more their tails grow so they are worth more.

Get quality fish from a breeder and get a desired tail type and color Koi seem to be all the rage now and combine that with the giant gene and you have a fish like in my avatar worth around $100.


----------



## Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. (Sep 30, 2019)

Rana said:


> Nope! It's possible in theory for someone to selectively breed a strain with lowered aggression over time- and they'd make a fortune probably, since a lot of casual owners don't prefer aggressive fish- but there's no real difference in temperament associated with tail types since all bettas generally come from the same gene pool. Tail types are a superficial difference, kind of like saying people would have different personalities because their hair is curly or straight.


That makes sense, my last betta Donofin would flare at everything. My current delta tail Moloka'i is the chillest little guy, he only ever flared once at a mirror. I think it is because he is so young, though I think I could entice him to flare if I stuck a mirror in the tank.

Thank you for the advice!


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I second rana on aggression. However, all breeders I know, sell their stock at the age of 4 months (any fin type). In the case of VTs, they should still have oval shaped tails. . . . . I'm not sure if US breeders wait until VT fins are fully grown.

If jarred since 2 months, fins should develop more than body. I can't explain why. Àll I know is fast body growth = slower fin development. And slow body growth = better fin development.

To my knowledge, there is a show class for VT - young VT with spade shaped tail. However it isn't as popular as other fin types.
. . . . . . . . .
If you're not looking to profit, I say breed what ever you want as long as you confirm your lfs will take what ever you produce OR be sure that you can rehome them.

VT are as healthy as any other fin type. The problem is that many (Asian) breeders are only interested in the quota thus often breed what they have without renewing their genetics. 

Many passionate hobbyists are against breeding VTs because they will more likely end up in lfs where they are not cared for properly. While breeders are reluctant because they don't sell for much but cost the same to raise.

In terms of health, many more popular types were inbred too often in hopes of making improvements fixed to breed true. Take rose tails, double tails, giants, dragon scales . . . . All are prone to some sort of genetic issues.


----------



## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

indjo said:


> To my knowledge, there is a show class for VT - young VT with spade shaped tail. However it isn't as popular as other fin types.


I could be mistaken- I've never shown bettas so I don't have firsthand experience- but the only category I found for VTs in the most recent IBC standards booklet was in the "trial" or proposed category section. Which I interpreted as their not being a regular show class, but one the IBC is considering to add in the future (or add _back_ if they removed it at some point). So that's why I said they aren't able to be shown.

I'd certainly _like_ VT to be showable, I think it's kind of strange that they are not when after all, they're the first type of long-finned betta to have been bred. And their eligibility could differ depending on chapter as well, I suppose, or if shows are run through another organization besides IBC.

(The booklet I'm using as reference- https://www.ibcbettas.org/upcoming-shows/standards/ )

And of course, this minor point only matters if the original poster is planning to show their bettas. There's no rule against pet bettas being VT!


----------



## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Tbh, I have never shown as well. I used to attend to learn desired criteria, but now stay away from local show people, though from time to time I would chat with them.

If the booklet still reada as such, then you're right, IBC haven't reinstated VT class. As I'm seeing more and more US and Canadian show hobbyists breeding VT, I thought it has been changed.


----------



## brittanym. (May 4, 2020)

Rana said:


> Veiltails are not any less aggressive or smarter than other bettas, it comes down to the individual betta's personality. And health depends on genetics as well as their living conditions- some mutations, like Dragonscales and Double-Tails, are linked to specific issues, but in general it has more to do with the specific background of the betta, not its tail type.
> 
> 
> In general I don't recommend breeding "just because", only if you have a plan in mind- ideally, one that would improve the species. But that's an opinion, not a rule.
> ...





Rana said:


> Veiltails are not any less aggressive or smarter than other bettas, it comes down to the individual betta's personality. And health depends on genetics as well as their living conditions- some mutations, like Dragonscales and Double-Tails, are linked to specific issues, but in general it has more to do with the specific background of the betta, not its tail type.
> 
> 
> In general I don't recommend breeding "just because", only if you have a plan in mind- ideally, one that would improve the species. But that's an opinion, not a rule.
> ...


Thank you so much for your detailed response, I will take all of this into consideration. Appreciate it


----------



## brittanym. (May 4, 2020)

indjo said:


> I second rana on aggression. However, all breeders I know, sell their stock at the age of 4 months (any fin type). In the case of VTs, they should still have oval shaped tails. . . . . I'm not sure if US breeders wait until VT fins are fully grown.
> 
> If jarred since 2 months, fins should develop more than body. I can't explain why. Àll I know is fast body growth = slower fin development. And slow body growth = better fin development.
> 
> ...





Mr Grumpy said:


> Hi
> 
> I am with Rana on this breeding for the sake of breeding is a waste of time, If you are going to breed Bettas I say do it but do it right, do your research on genetics and what you need to raise fry to a point where you can sell them and remember with males the longer you hang onto them the more they grow and the more their tails grow so they are worth more.
> 
> Get quality fish from a breeder and get a desired tail type and color Koi seem to be all the rage now and combine that with the giant gene and you have a fish like in my avatar worth around $100.


Thank you for your response


----------

