# Before you breed your pet store betta!!(Read



## FloridaBettas239

Most, if not all of us, got our first betta from a pet store. They are beautiful fish and have great personalities... why not breed him/her? In fact, there are many reasons why this is often not a good idea. Here are some things to consider before you breed your fish. 

Many bettas sold in pet stores (usually just the males, but sometimes the females too) are either past or at their breeding prime. After the age of about one year, the risk of deformities and/or weak fry increases. How long have you had the bettas you want to breed? If they were 6-12 months of age (like most males are in pet stores) when you first got them, how old are they now?
The genetic background of pet store bettas cannot be known (besides the obvious based on their appearance). Pet stores bettas come from mass-producers/suppliers (unless yours is an exceptional mom-and-pop place and gets fish from private breeders which is usually not the case) so they are not at all carefully bred. What if your bettas carry genes that result in many deformed fry? Are you prepared to deal with this?
One spawn can and often does result in hundreds of betta fry. Are you prepared to raise that many babies to adulthood? Do you have live food, a big enough growout tank, and enough jars if at least half of them are male?
Pet store fish (namely veiltails and crowntails) are not, by any means, in great demand. Many pet stores' shelves are filled with bettas rotting in their little cups because they get more in than people buy. People are usually not willing to pay to have pet store fish shipped to them, so you will need to find homes locally. Selling to pet stores is not recommended because this is just contributing to the "betta-in-a-cup" industry that we all know and hate. Do you know enough people to give your fry to? Or do you live near a good pet store to give them to? Do you trust this pet store with your babies, and are you willing to chance what kind of homes they end up in?
If you do not have the money or sources to get a good set of bettas i suggest you hold off breeding for now you will only be hurting the breed the fish and the pet store's do a good enough job at this i no you think its fun an cute to have baby animals and stuff but the breed will suffer in the end the betta breed thank you everyone


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## Oldfishlady

You make good points and I agree to a point, however, any and all the problems you listed can still occur in well bred Betta with attach genetic as it will in the mutts that most people buy at their local shop.

The Betta in-a-cup are only meant to be temporary homes just as the overstock display tanks other species of fish are housed and sold from.

IMO-I don't think it is fair to compare housing needs in domestic fish-vs-wild fish, the longfinned Betta we buy today is in no way looks like its wild cousin, this is a man-made fish of sorts, you won't see a long finned betta we have today in the wild unless someone put it their.

Regardless of breeding lines of the fish I am of the opinion that everyone should spawn "responsibly" at least one species of egg laying fish while enjoying this hobby and IMO store bought fish are fine to use unless you plan to show and if you are wanting to show....join the IBC and your local Betta club. 
And-resale can be equally hard regardless in my experience unless you have a plan and connections.

I do disagree with the age of the fish in the pet store, growth and development in masses for re-sale are much faster than you think, most Betta on the shelf are closer to 3-6 months of age and prime for breeding, (my home spawned males are near fully finned by 3-4 months of age and females bred at 4 months).They are mass produced for the re-sale market and the longer they keep and feed them the less profit they will make, turn-over is fast, growth is fast, sometimes too fast and this is often why we see so many problems, you have a baby in an adults body, however, you also have to think about the life cycle, they don't live for 25 years and so they have to grow fast, reproduce young before their life cycle ends and this can be as young as 1 year to 3 years.

I for one- don't want to be controlled and told I shouldn't or that it is a bad idea to do something because its not pure bred or unknown genetic, how do you think we got what we have now, someone experimented and made them and still do. Why should a hobbyist be criticized for our own experimenting to create something beautiful and new as long as we are responsible and have a plan.
IMO-nothing wrong with the store bought fish and they are fine for spawning and for pets, some even show quality, maybe you don't know the genetic background and maybe you will have some duds but soon you will know the lines just as the ones that come with a piece of paper that you hope is a true statement and an honest breeder, not all are...mutts can be beautiful...just look at your Betta......they don't know they are mutts....and who are they that call them mutts.....they are 100% Betta after all and someone knows whos their daddy....
They all started some place and why not start some place at your place

I do agree-that if you do opt to spawn to do it responsibly and have a plan and to be aware that you may not make any money, in fact it may cost you a lot more than you make and if you are lucky you may get store credit at a local pet shop at a rate of 10 cents a fish and 1 dollars if they are special. Yes, they will be kept in a small temporary cup and they may die in that cup from poor water quality at the pet shop or in someones home, sadly that is part of breeding any live animal..once out of your hands anything can happen, you have no control. 
And breeding involves death and culling of the unwanted and deformed and if you can't do that you don't need to be breeding any live animal, too soft of heart can lead to an animal suffering and that is cruel. Life and death issues/choices are never easy and a breeder has to make these hard choices everyday.

Not arguing....... just making statement on my opinion and experience in this hobby.


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## FloridaBettas239

I am just saying i have heard people feeding the young bettas to large fish because they couldnt find a home for them or dont have room for them and i couldnt give away a store bought betta on craigslist or aquabid or ebay but i put my halfmoons on there and there gone as fast as i post them and for the other ones i have a drip system so if people dont have room for them then dont breed and there is a lot of animals that change in captivity from there wild brothers but you dont see people just breeding them to who ever and whatever with no regard for the animal with out trying to better the breed if anyone really cares about bettas they would want to better them and mabey spend an extra 5 or 15 dollars and get a good betta if you plain on breeding if you dont then get a store bought one i still have store bought in my house im not going to throw him out because of that i mean theres just so many people out there that say they care but dont its like lets breed black bears with polar bears and then with some brown bears just because..... i dont make money at all most months on my fish room after the power bill and water bill and fish food all that good stuff i do it to make better bettas better finage and better fourm and i sell them so there can be a good blood line of bettas out there and yes the papers can be a lie but if you no the ibc standards you can spot a store bought from a show betta over a cell phone camera im not saying to not buy them bettas i have bought them just because i felt bad for the betta in the cup all bettas i sell at my local pet store and i no the owner i have a shelf with 10 bennie baby boxes there almost a gallon each i think there clear like plexi glass and when one sells i replace it with a new one and the ones that dont sell i switch them out with some new i hate the betta in a cup deal and then pet stores tell you they like small areas because there territorial and stay in one spot in the bowl it just adds to futher suffering but everyone has there own opinion


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## dramaqueen

I believe that people should breed responsibly, whether it's petstore bettas or show bettas. Some people breed and then get 100 or more babies, then end up disposing of most of them because they only had room for 10-15 or couldn't find homes for all of them.


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## dipsydoodlenoodle

I would love to breed my male but the sad fact it I don't have the space and I don't want to have to go killing them off because I was too stupid and didn't have the space in the first place. If you don't have space then no breeding simple as that!


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## Felessan

people should breed responsably i would love to breed my pet store (petsmart) betta but i can not stand the thought of not finding homes and killing them or having them in a little cup for even a day! so i do not plan on breeding and i probably never will.


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## Alexanderismylife

I also would love to breed my bettas but 1.Don't have the space 2. Don't have anyone to give the fry to. 3.I don't want to risk any of my bettas dieing :[ So I will probably never breed my bettas.


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## 1fish2fish

I don't believe in breeding pet store fish. To me I equate it with breeding a dog from a puppymill, yes it might be cute, hey it might even have papers, but in the end you have no clue what kind of genetic defects it is carrying in its DNA that may not show on the fish itself.

That being said if someone wants to take that risk that is their prerogative. As long as they do their research and actually know what they want out of the breeding as opposed to "I wonder what I'll get if I mix Mr. Fishie with Lady Fish".. IMO if you are going to bring ANY animal in this world that has the potential to end up mistreated you better be darn sure you have a goal and a reason for bringing that life into this world.


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## dramaqueen

I don't have a problem with having a dog from a puppy mill as long as it's never bred. I'll buy my next dog from a reputable breeder though.


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## FloridaBettas239

The problem with you not caring about getting a dog from a puppy mill, just because you dont breed it. But you still put money in that no good breeders hand's and opened up a new spot for somemore puppys that go threw hell. If everyone would stop buying dogs from these people then they would have no reason to breed and it would at least slow them down. Just like if everyone stop buying the betta in a cup then the stores would have no reason to carry them. WE cant stop them but we can slow them down one fish at a time.


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## dramaqueen

I do believe in buying from a reputable breeder because then you know what you're getting and they are more likely to be healthy. I know several people whom I suspect got their dogs from puppy mills. One lives across the street from me. Angel is a sweet dog and very smart but has never realoly been healthy, though part of it is her stupid owner's fault.Another neighbor got a Sheltie from a petstore and he died from some genetic disease about 9 months after they got him.


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## frogipoi

I'm wealthy and have a lot of space so I could breed but where would they go! In a cup to go to a pet store.


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## Adastra

Let me start out by saying a couple of things.

1. Don't repost information copied from other sources that you don't have permission to take. I'm sure the original writer of the text in the OP's post would be happy to know that you're just trying to help--but next time you should get proper permission before posting a piece of someone else's article.

2. I don't mean to attack you, Oldfishlady, I think you're a very experienced betta keeper, and I respect your willingness to help people with their problems and pass on useful information about betta husbandry. You are perfectly welcome to have your own point of view on this particular subject, but I must disagree with many parts of your post. 



Oldfishlady said:


> You make good points and I agree to a point, however, any and all the problems you listed can still occur in well bred Betta with attach genetic as it will in the mutts that most people buy at their local shop.


You're right--but you have a much better chance of getting high quality offspring from high quality fish. "Quality" aside, you have a much higher chance of getting what you want if you know whether or not the fish carries genes like red loss, for instance. Many use the red loss genes for making beautiful whites, but if you breed a fish carrying red loss into a red line, you're going to get really ugly browns and messy cellophanes. 



Oldfishlady said:


> IMO-I don't think it is fair to compare housing needs in domestic fish-vs-wild fish, the longfinned Betta we buy today is in no way looks like its wild cousin, this is a man-made fish of sorts, you won't see a long finned betta we have today in the wild unless someone put it their.
> The Betta in-a-cup are only meant to be temporary homes just as the overstock display tanks other species of fish are housed and sold from.


This is true, but this change has mostly been a behavioral one. Domestic betta splendens are more aggressive than their wild cousins, they have different colors and a variety of finnage forms. That doesn't mean they don't need heat, or clean water, or behavioral enrichment. I know that you understand this because you so often advocate stringent water changing routines and proper heating as I do. I'm puzzled as to why you would make this statement given your previous posts. 



Oldfishlady said:


> Regardless of breeding lines of the fish I am of the opinion that everyone should spawn "responsibly" at least one species of egg laying fish while enjoying this hobby and IMO store bought fish are fine to use unless you plan to show and if you are wanting to show....join the IBC and your local Betta club.
> And-resale can be equally hard regardless in my experience unless you have a plan and connections.


Whaaaat? I don't mean to be rude but I firmly disagree with this statement. You should never breed an animal simply because you can--that is the definition of irresponsible. I do not believe that you are missing out on anything by not breeding fish, or any other animal for that matter. Like 1fish2fish said, it's no different from the selfish backyard breeders that have oversaturated this continent with unwanted animals, many of which have deformities that could easily have been avoided, like double merle dogs, for instance. 

I don't believe you should breed pet store bettas because the quality of their care has likely been low, their age is questionable, and you don't know what you'll get. The reason people should have in their mind when they breed fish is to improve the species betta splendens through a proliferation of positive traits that contributes to the aesthetic appeal and overall health of the next generation. There are plenty of breeding facilities cranking out these fish at such a high rate that thousands die on shelves every day. Why make more of these bettas?




Oldfishlady said:


> I do disagree with the age of the fish in the pet store, growth and development in masses for re-sale are much faster than you think, most Betta on the shelf are closer to 3-6 months of age and prime for breeding, (my home spawned males are near fully finned by 3-4 months of age and females bred at 4 months).They are mass produced for the re-sale market and the longer they keep and feed them the less profit they will make, turn-over is fast, growth is fast, sometimes too fast and this is often why we see so many problems, you have a baby in an adults body, however, you also have to think about the life cycle, they don't live for 25 years and so they have to grow fast, reproduce young before their life cycle ends and this can be as young as 1 year to 3 years.


There is somewhat of a range, though. Veiltails and crowns in particular are often considerably older because the quality of their finnage improves so much after they are allowed to mature. Either way, the point is that you just don't know how old they are, and if you've had the fish for awhile, they're probably past their breeding prime. I was always under the impression that all breeders grow out their fish as fast as possible with tons of water changes and high protein foods. Common practice. 



Oldfishlady said:


> I for one- don't want to be controlled and told I shouldn't or that it is a bad idea to do something because its not pure bred or unknown genetic, how do you think we got what we have now, someone experimented and made them and still do. Why should a hobbyist be criticized for our own experimenting to create something beautiful and new as long as we are responsible and have a plan.
> IMO-nothing wrong with the store bought fish and they are fine for spawning and for pets, some even show quality, maybe you don't know the genetic background and maybe you will have some duds but soon you will know the lines just as the ones that come with a piece of paper that you hope is a true statement and an honest breeder, not all are...mutts can be beautiful...just look at your Betta......they don't know they are mutts....and who are they that call them mutts.....they are 100% Betta after all and someone knows whos their daddy....
> They all started some place and why not start some place at your place


I believe this post is mostly aimed at beginners in the hobby that get their first few fish from the store and they think "Wow, my guy is so beautiful, and his personality is great! Wouldn't it be nice to have a bunch of little hims running around?" Mutts are beautiful, they have wonderful personalities and I would never consider owning otherwise. However, you will end up culling a lot of fish by starting with "mutts" in order to get what you want. If you start with high quality fish and breed with a goal in mind, you potentially lower the risk of proliferating hidden x factor genes, and create more saleable fish that you can experiment with just the same--but more predictably. You'll potentially save a lot time, effort, money, and fish's lives this way. 



Oldfishlady said:


> I do agree-that if you do opt to spawn to do it responsibly and have a plan and to be aware that you may not make any money, in fact it may cost you a lot more than you make and if you are lucky you may get store credit at a local pet shop at a rate of 10 cents a fish and 1 dollars if they are special. Yes, they will be kept in a small temporary cup and they may die in that cup from poor water quality at the pet shop or in someones home, sadly that is part of breeding any live animal..once out of your hands anything can happen, you have no control.
> And breeding involves death and culling of the unwanted and deformed and if you can't do that you don't need to be breeding any live animal, too soft of heart can lead to an animal suffering and that is cruel. Life and death issues/choices are never easy and a breeder has to make these hard choices everyday.


Yes, you are right--no one getting into breeding should expect to make money. They should expect to lose much more than they make--bettas are a work of love, and a work of living art. There is a dark side to it though, and that is the fact that inevitably breeders must cull undesirable or deformed fish. By starting with healthier stock whose genetic histories you know, you can minimize this. If you have space constraints, you can remove the female before she releases all her eggs in order to create a smaller spawn, so that you don't have tons of babies you can't take care of or place. Breeding more desirable fish will hopefully increase your turnover rate if you are breeding to sell. 

Personally, I would never sell my babies to a pet store that kept them in cups. You cannot ultimately control the fate of the offspring, but as the person who helped bring them into the world, I feel that it is your responsibility to protect them. Putting them in the position to die in a pet store is irresponsible, in my opinion. This is a huge reason why I will never intentionally breed any animal I own. Ever. There is no need for more bettas in the world. 

If you want another fish, go to a store. Look on craigslist or in your local animal shelter. You'll get a fantastic pet and you'll be part of the solution instead of becoming part of the problem.


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## Oldfishlady

Adastra, you have the right to your opinion as do I...with that said......

I stand by my opinion/experience and I live in the real world along with all its ugly parts, sadly everything must die. 
I advocate the pet store fish as this is what most people can afford to buy and start out with. 
In attempts to control one surroundings one can lose sight of the big picture "to learn by doing" and "to grow"
To encourage breeding encourages learning with a better understanding of life and different species within this hobby...to grow and to stay in this hobby long term..not just a couple of dead fish with the tank in the trash and give up....we are losing hobbyist which in turn is hurting the hobby and encouragement needs to be made to keep interest up and growth- breeding and sharing with others is but one way to encourage new hobbyist to stay/grow in this awesome hobby.
You can't save them all and some will die...that is Life......

And I hope you will at least agree-that there is more than one way to successfully keep fish and breed fish even if it differs from yours......


Sorry for the hijack.......

"This will be my last post on this thread"
If you wish to debate lets take this to PM's


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## JamieTron

I think this thread is ignoring many important facts about fish development by blaming most deformities in fry due to age and genetics of parents and focusing on how mutts will have more problems. Developmental problems and deformities are just as much environmental as genetic. Temperature is a HUGE factor in spinal deformities for example alone. Oldfishlady is right in saying deformities can occur in pures just as much as mutts anyone with knowledge of developmental physiology in fish will know this. Also you may think pures are better BUT what do you need to get pures....inbreeding....every time you inbreed a strain you are reducing the strains vigor....you know it is a double edge sword with these things. Look at all the problems human introduced to pure bred dogs....the same with our domesticated strains of fish for food. Yes you can breed certain disease out, but you also have inadvertently introduced new problems. Genes are complicated and not so easily controlled.

I am not choosing either side...just saying there is a good and bad to everything. I think as long as someone researches fine...I do think giving them to a pet store should be avoided though,,,all that hard work to see your babies suffer wouldn't be very fun.


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## FloridaBettas239

I think someone posted it already, But yes you still get deformities but not near as many.

The other thing is when you see these beautiful fish on AB that you would die for. Well they lock in that by inbreeding a little and it locks it in so they dont have to fight to get more to look like that picture perfect betta they inbreed a little. Of course to much inbreeding will cause all sort of problem's but thats why you buy from respectable breeders and pet store bettas are far from that pet store breeders are far from that im sure you might find a couple that care if you get lucky.

Which is easier to sell which is more desirable the pure breed the one with paper's? Or a betta that you dont no anything about genetic's age background nothing.. OR the one's That have line paper's, You want to find out what the grandfather of your betta look's like contact your reputable breeder if you have one they will have spawn log's and pictures all on file. I started my log last year when i registered and bought IBC bettas.

I didnt think there would be a big deal over this thread. If you care about the breed, If you care about the future of the fish, If you want to better the fish, If you want to do something about the betta in a cup. Then there shouldnt be a big deal about this thread. If almost everyone starts buying from good breeder's who care about the fish and deserve the money then there wont be a market for the betta in a cup. There wont be none of these bettas getting put on shelves for 5 of them to sell and 10 to die.


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## FloridaBettas239

I no you still face some problem's with a pure betta but atleast we are going in the right direction and saving a lot of them.


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## frogipoi

I hate arguments! Just PM a person! Threads are not a place to argue! This is a place is a place to discuss.
Not ever going on this thread again! Remove it from subscribed and peace out!


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## FloridaBettas239

I didn't think anyone is arguing, We a just talking about the topic on the fourm that got started. I don't think anything said is bad to where it needs to be PM.


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## JamieTron

It is just general discussion of opinions and facts  very friendly.


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## dramaqueen

I don't feel that anyone is arguing, either! Everyone has been very respectful of each others' opinions. We should respect each others' opinions, even if we disagree with each other.


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## FloridaBettas239

Also like i said before i own pet store bettas, And dont have a problem with them. But i would not breed them. Also now that i no as much imformation i wont buy a pet store betta, Not because it's a pet store betta but because it give's the bad breeders a reason to keep breeding and open's a spot up on the shelf s so the pet stores look for more bettas to buy to put in a little cup.

And yes also i want to show my fish, And would like to win or have a good chance at it. Plus all the fry i want to sell will be gone as fast as there posted. But with pet store bettas you run into so many problem's trying to do this.


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## MrVampire181

To be honest healthy pet store bettas breed more readily (in my cases) than the more expensive kind. As long as their healthy and taken care of bettas can breed at any age. Pet store bettas are good as first time spawners but there is a problem....not many people are willing to buy them.


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## JamieTron

I just bred my petstore bettas I would like to move into a nice AB pair someday  but I still need experience since this spawn I wasn't very successful. I have people who want my fry though just because they will be home bred and cared for. But someday I want to move into a more serious hobby of it, but for now I think I am too inexperienced to want to bred an expensive pair. Someday....


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## dramaqueen

I think it's a good idea to start with petstore bettas. You don't want to buy an expensive pair and have something happen to them because of inexperience.


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## mollyyymo

dramaqueen said:


> I think it's a good idea to start with petstore bettas. You don't want to buy an expensive pair and have something happen to them because of inexperience.


I agree. My current spawn came from pet store bettas; it works for me because I'm new to he hobby. These fish have the same intrinsic value to me without the financial risk.

After all, if I spent all my income on Aquabid and didn't pay rent, where would the fish live?


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## frogipoi

Wrong thread! No one is and I thought I was on this other site. SORRY!! Man Why do I mess up. I love bettas!


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## 1fish2fish

It is quite easy to obtain a pair for cheap that didn't come from a pet store. Yes you'll have to pay shipping but for the pair itself you can sometimes find really good deals if you take the time to look.

I'm all about responsible breeding and my biggest concern is that pet store bred fish do not find homes as quickly as "pure" bred fish. What happens if you end up with 80 fish and can't find homes? If you take the time to properly do research and buy all of your equipment there is no reason that you can't save up for a nice pair.

Dog breeders don't take mutts and do a "practice litter" with them. They take the time to pick the right breed for them and pick lines they like the best and put all of their effort into making it better.

IMO no one should breed ANYTHING unless it is to make something better. I honestly don't see how breeding veiltails from a pet store is making anything better. Its one thing to have aspirations for a line of veiltails, I can understand that even though they will be unpopular. But breeding just for the sake of experience or practice seems very unethical to me.


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## indjo

Here is something to consider; imagine if the VT were extinct. What genetics would breeders use to make betta fins longer. 
Out breeding to wild bettas create short tails like the plakat. Once breeders are satisfied with the color they've come up with, they would introduce other tail types. Look at the HM's, very few have tail as long as their bodies. Nowadays most bettas tails are only half their body length. Look at the new type of double tail, its rather short. To produce longer fins, long finned genes must be introduced ..... the VT.

Still imagine, there are no VTs. LFS will only cup other available tail types..... so problem not solved. VTs (IMO) are as beautiful as other tail types. Further more they are cheaper which is ideal for beginners. Yes, perhaps you may have to use bettas as fish food. But don't you use guppies as betta food? What's the difference?

IMO - responsible is for beginners not experimenting with tail type without certain goals. Beginners should use breeders of the same tail type (whatever type). Then if more experienced, they could experiment and try create new and or better tail type or color.

Quality is merely something that pleases our eyes and heart, thus its very subjective according to the individual judging.


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## FloridaBettas239

I agree with 1fish2fish, A halfmoon at petco is 13 or 14 dollars, So for a couple more dollars you can have a pretty good fish. Also when you do get rid of them to your friend's and then they try to breed like you there not breeding bettas with a huge mixed up genetic backgroung. They no what genetic's are in the betta and what they will get. And by everyone buying pretty good bettas after so many year's it will be helping the breed the future of the betta. It would put money in the people's pocket's that deserve it. The breeder's that really care about the fish. There's so many bad thing's that out weigh the good in breeding pet store bettas why would people want to. And there is so many good thing's that out weigh the bad in breeding higher class bettas. That i wouldn't even think about breeding pet store bettas.

Also yes pet store bettas will breed and do a ok job. But if you have ever breed a nice pair of show bettas. You would say wow that is night a day the two do not even compare.


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## FloridaBettas239

So for a couple more dollars you can get a good quality betta off the net. For just a little more than petco.


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## 1fish2fish

I'm not against breeding VT. In fact once I have a set up where I can afford to keep lots of unwanted baby veils I plan on doing a project line of VT. My point is that unless you have a goal (I would like to do a line of Giant Veils) you shouldn't be breeding at all. But that is for anything, not just pet store fish. I expect unless I can find someone else who has been breeding VT that my starter genectics will be from pet store fish, that's fine with me because I know what I want to get out of them.

Breeding for the sake of breeding is what I am against.

My other point in my post was directed at those who say they don't want to spend a lot of money on a pair. If you take the proper amount of time to do research (which IMO is at least 6 months) it should be fairly easy enough to save enough to get even a cheap pair. It's easy enough to find fish that are $5 and $10 plus $15 for shipping in the US. That's about $30... over 6 months that is a little over .16c a day.

That being said. If you have two fish you want to breed AND have a goal in mind for that breeding AND have the fiscal and spatial resources to deal with the consequences of that breeding if you can't find proper homes I see no problem in breeding pet store fish. Personally (with the exception of a VT line) I will probably never breed pet store fish, but if other people wish to do so it is not my place to tell them its wrong.


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## NIB BETTA

I just want to add that purchasing from AB, does not guarantee quality. Unfortunately, in a breeders quest to create a new line, you have betta's that should have been culled, but are now given a fancy name and people buy into it. 

Breeding this betta is more irresponsible than breeding a VT off of Walmart shelves.


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## Adastra

Obviously there is a dark side to breeding, and it produces deformities like short-bodied fish. I agree with you that short-bodied fish shouldn't be bred (it seems unlikely to me that that fish even could breed because it wouldn't be able to wrap properly..) But do keep in mind that this is a huge trend in breeding and has been for hundreds of years--people are motivated to sell these fish because look at the success of fancy goldfish; in the fancy world, the more grossly deformed the better. Telescope eyes, outrageous wens, kinked spines, and bubble eyes are gross deformities that are suddenly not just acceptable, but desirable when it comes to goldfish. Also just about everything comes in "balloon" form these days--balloon mollies, balloon rams, balloon pearl gouramis, even. Society sees these fish as beautiful, personally, I see them as miserable and doomed by their deformities to suffer with chronic problems and inevitably have a shorter lifespan. This is a large scale ethical problem in more than just the betta community. 

Anyone who's looking into breeding bettas should do enough research to know better than to choose an x-factor fish. Also, it seems to me that purchasing your first starting pair is one of the cheapest aspects of betta breeding. If you don't have enough money to invest in a nice pair, then you probably don't have enough money to be breeding anything.


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## NIB BETTA

Agree 100%. Obviously there has to be some demand for short bodied betta's, I just hope the IBC does not accept these. In my opinion, this fish looks miserable and I can't stand to look at it. 

When you think about it, I am sure at one time, Koi, Dalmation and Marbles were considered a deformity and now look at the demand for them.


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## FloridaBettas239

Another thing is when you start to get into pure breed bettas. Most of us search for what to look for in a good betta. Or if your really into it they join the IBC and then see the standards for a betta and what they should look like. So when you see something like that fish above you shake your head, and mabet send a email asking wtf is going on. And thats why people shouldn't breed if you dont no what there looking for then there just carless breeding with no regards to the fish to the breed. I have nothing against VT. I love halfmoon's the next person might love crowntail's. Each person has there own style but dont just breed because, and dont breed something that you really dont no what it is. beside's what you see on the outside. but you dont see what the genetic's are hiding.

My friend tried to breed a red fish into his line because he wanted to do anal fin improvment's. Well after those fry grew up he started breeding the red back out. And a year and 2 spawn's later the red is finally gone. Or so we thought he had his beautiful white bettas and then went to breed them and out of no where they threw some red babies. First off let me say red is very hard to breed out. But what im trying to get at is. these pet store breeders are not looking to better the fish. there just wanting 100's and 100's so they breed x fish with y fish and then with red fish blue fish. So you never no what your going to get and that's why there called mutt's. You could do something with a pet store betta it would just take so many spawns before you washed everything out and kept what you wanted, and it would take a lot of spawns to start getting fin improvment's. So instead of taking all these huge step's backward's. Just study about the fish for a couple months. Which will give you time to save for a decent pair of betta stock that you can work with.


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## 1fish2fish

I would consider anyone who breeds for short body or "big ears" (blegh) an unethical breeder. Stuff happens but that is why we cull. DBT is a deformity that is quite popular and it takes a very ethical breeder to breed DBT because you get so many spinal deformities, etc.

There are unethical breeders in any domesticated species. Its up to the consumer to learn enough to be able to say "I'm staying away from that breeder, he's a bad egg".


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## NIB BETTA

1fish2fish said:


> There are unethical breeders in any domesticated species. Its up to the consumer to learn enough to be able to say "I'm staying away from that breeder, he's a bad egg".


That is the key. If no one purchases these betta's, I guarantee we will not see them posted on AB next month.


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## 1fish2fish

I believe that too. But there are still people out there dumb enough to buy them. They thing huge pectoral fins are "cute" and stumpy bodies are funny. I even saw a "breeder" on ebay who was selling "miniature bettas.. only 1 inch".. if you want a small fish BUY A NEON TETRA. That makes me so mad. It's one thing to mess with color and fin shape, but when you start to alter the internal structure of the fish (for the worse) that is where I draw the line.


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## mollyyymo

I just want to back up for a minute.

Just because beginners breed pet store bettas doesn't mean we don't have goals in mind. I have a grasp on what I want from breeding, even if it is a pet store pair.

But yeah, that short-bodied fish just shown made me very sad.


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## JamieTron

Well I personally love my mutt fry ;-) even if no one else loves them


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## 1fish2fish

mollyyymo said:


> I just want to back up for a minute.
> 
> Just because beginners breed pet store bettas doesn't mean we don't have goals in mind. I have a grasp on what I want from breeding, even if it is a pet store pair.


That's my entire point. If you have a goal in mind (past I think these are pretty fish who will have pretty babies) then it's your choice where you choose to get stock.

Its the "practice" pair that I don't agree with. This isn't a sport. You either breed or you don't breed. You don't "practice" breeding.


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## Welsh

Practise pair - This is exactly what my mother and sister want me to do, "breed them Leah if it doesn't turn out right then atleast you can say you tried" this is what annoys me, that people don't class fish as living things. I REALLY want to breed my fish but I know that other than ebay I won't have anywhere to sell them, my goal is to breed them and give a few to my LFS just so they can see that there are other types of bettas other than CT and VT which is all they stock. I am a newbie to bettas and so even though I have been researching for four months and even though I know what the parents of my bettas looks like 

Male - http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2396/machocopy.
jpg

Female: http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1153/hembraroja
minif.jpg

I don't know for sure what i will end up with and so this is the reason why I most likely won't end up breeding.


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## Mattman

I think those who emphasize What you want out of breeding are correct. Obviously I think a if you do breed you should be responsible. Are you breeding to learn the process or for show. I understand pet store bettas are not recognized but still if you are learning the process, have the time, money, and love to care for every fish and fry, why not. I have two pet store bettas which I will try to breed. This is my first attempt and I have been researching like mad to ensure it is a success and have a ton of friends who would like one.


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## Curlyfatbottom

Mutt in dog seem to be healthier then most pure breed
Just watching my brother dog(english bulldog)n I can tell it's not a healthy as my little sister mutt(chihauhuax?)

When something get to pure you will encounter many problem
Just watching n helping out my brother with his breeding
It's sad that the male can't breed without human help
Plus the female can't give nature birth

With dog u can force breed
Your playing god to get with sell

Now with betta
There only one person I like on Ab n it is ram91
At his price I'll be broke to get a set up fish for breeding
2 trio will sink me into a very deep hole



I'm a local breeder n sell local 
Idk about other breeder 
But I've basic the sell on the spawn
Higher quality spawn=20+a fish
Lower quality spawn=even if I'm manage to produce a decent fish 15 max
N I still get low ball
People proclaiming that they can get fish with the same quality for $5
Expect me to sell to them at the price that there asking for

Yeah I don't know the genetic(color) of the fish n it seem high
But it breed true in size
Also the breed that I'm working with don't come at a reasonal price 
Even at the price I'm selling them at, is still a lost


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## Olympia

Well bred fish still produce bad fry.. These are culled by breeders. No one tests their Betta for genetic conditions like with dogs, breed what you want and cull the "uglies" just like everyone else. People breeding pet shop fish are usually more willing to spend time homing fish, they all realize the challenges of it. If you're ready than go for it.. If you're in a rush, can't wait for a pair to ship in, then you lack the patience to breed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BeckyFish97

No fish will ever have a spawn without some deformed fry, its a fact of breeding. If you want to breed good quality fry, and don't want to deal with a bunch of "wild cards" then you should buy breeding quality fish. If you don't mind having a bunch of "wild cards" then sure, go ahead and breed pet store fish, but make sure when you pick the fish out, you look for the ones with the BEST fins, NO deformities, the BEST body shape!Don't just go in there thinking you're gonna walk out with two perfect fish, because the likelyhood is you wont!Take your time looking, if one day they don't have the fish quality you want, then DON'T BUY THEM!!!I have no problem with breeding pet store fish, because that is exactly how we got all the fin types we have today!!!The problem is not the fish, but the owner, if the owner goes into the breeding with their head in the sand then they will never get anywhere!!!If people want to breed pet store fish I think the main message is this: Breed Responsibly, if you want pet store fish, make sure you have the best of the lot!Make sure you know what you're doing, maybe even have a few practise spawns with platy's or guppies, learn the trade, work out what is good and what is a rip off, and most of all, have fun with it!!!(But be aware of the work that comes with it)

PS:"mutt" fry are cute!you can show me a halfmoon perfect rays etc, but put a cute little "mutt" fish next to it and there's no competition, I completely disagree with the people who say mutt fry are ugly and wont have a good life, because with the right care they can have the best life of the lot!!!

PPS: Just my opinion, please people don't start on me for it!


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## Oldfishlady

This is a 2 year old post.....


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## Luimeril

it's a 2 year old post, but it IS pretty important.

my thing is, i don't agree with using pet store bettas as 'practice', just like 1fish. if you're gonna breed, have a reason other than practice or 'they're so pretty! i want pretty babies!'. there's also a difference between breeding any betta, and breeding something you want to improve.

for example, i wouldn't go out and buy your average blue with red wash male, and shove him on any female. i'd probably get more blue with red wash, which is overly common in pet stores and they'd sit there. 

BUT! i've gotten some unique bettas from Pet Lover's, like my nearly black with blue iridescence veil, Scout. it's such a unique color, one i've never seen before in veils. i'd probably search for a female who'd go well with him. mind you, i'm not smart in colors, so, for example, maybe a wild-color female? continue with that unique color and maybe try to improve it. never saw an all-black veil before!

i've seen what breeding pet store bettas can get you. and i don't see anything wrong with it. you just have to use the same standards when looking for a quality pair to breed.


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## BeckyFish97

Oh pants, I didn't see that!!!I just presumed because people where posting on it it must be recent!!!


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## jeffegg2

Oldie but goodie!

I have nothing against regular ole veil tails or delta tails from the pet store. If I was a young kid with a small allowance then perhaps I would breed them and see what I could come up with.

But since I can get what I want, I am using at least what I consider sellable breeding stock. 

My thoughts now are on finding/making half moon big ear dragons. Perhaps back crossing to partial giants for size?

Just my dream.....

Jeff.


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## bettalover2000

I have 2 petstore VTs that I've had for about a year. When I breed them it will be mainly for experience, not for fry count or profit. Seriously I will cull to about 5 fry. I do hope to breed quality bettas and sell them & produce a quality line of breeders.


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## Mo

Bettalover. The possibility of the VT's breeding is very small. They usually don't breed as they get older. I would assume the fish are around 18 months old


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## jeffegg2

bettalover2000 said:


> I have 2 petstore VTs that I've had for about a year. When I breed them it will be mainly for experience, not for fry count or profit. Seriously I will cull to about 5 fry. I do hope to breed quality bettas and sell them & produce a quality line of breeders.


Instead of culling, you can always just pull the female after a few eggs drop. Much kinder to the fish....

Jeff.


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## dramaqueen

I agree with Jeff.


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## phikhanhs

I see it .. I m trying to breed pet store betta but failed sigh


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## louisvillelady

I don't know why we don't just make the halfmoons and plakats more available. I'm amazed at how many pet store managers have no clue about plakats or halfmoons or even deltas.

I have made a deal with the two pet stores that I sell to, to set up a display tank of a soroity tanks. I am currently working on getting breeders that I can get a wide variety of colors. I'm hoping to maybe get as many examples of colors and tail types, excluding the veil tails, cause we have enough of those already in stores (don't start an arguement over that statement please) to place in these display tanks. Hoping to get more females and more knowledge about these fish into the general public. I am also planing to enter a tank into the state fair this august. If I time it right, all of this will take place around the same time. People will see the tank at the fair, and maybe head to the petstore and be able to set one up themselves. This will create a better market for these fish, and hopefully encourage pet stores to try the other tail types. If we can offer the other types for a cheaper price, I think they would be just as popular. I think they would fair better also in those tiny cups.


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## Jayloo

I feel like this is a hobby. Not a way of life. And if I see a pet store betta that I feel would be an interesting breed them I will do it. Although there are 5 pet stores in my area- 3 of which would buy juvies at a decent price and also if they don't have the money they offer store credit which is almost more preferable anyway...


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## trilobite

I breed petstore Bettas. If I see one with good form I will breed it no matter where it came from. Infact the petstore Bettas here are often better than ones bred in this country haha


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