# Sudden onset of mystery illness - Please help!



## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

My young marble boy I purchased from a LFS on 12/11/11 has suddenly started showing symptoms that something is wrong. He has been the picture perfect of health until this morning. I found him sitting at the bottom of his tank with clamped fins. Usually he is an insanely hyper fish who constantly swims back and forth, so sitting at the bottom is not good. Neither is the clamped fins. Another thing I noticed is he's been "flashing" on and off throughout the day. 

I did a bit of reading online and it looks like parasites could be to blame? I'm not sure though, I'm not very experienced with illnesses like this. Here is what I have on hand, please let me know if I should use any of it: 


Aquarium Salt
T.C. Tetracycline
Methylene Blue
Jungle Anti-Parasite Medicated Fish Food
 


> Housing
> What size is your tank? 2.5 gallon (temporary)
> What temperature is your tank? 78
> Does your tank have a filter? No
> ...


Similar to how he looked yesterday, no problems...










How he looks today, very unhappy fish...










Here is a short video:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Did all of these symptoms just start yesterday? Did the symptoms start before or after his water change?


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Yep and it was before the water change. I was hoping he would perk up after it, but he didn't.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Bump! I really need help, he has taken a turn for the worse and is just sitting on the bottom. 
Oddly enough he still has an appetite though.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Very odd. Have you done another water change yet? Perhaps even put him in a cup with water from another tank who's fish isn't sick?


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## Fleetwood (Jul 8, 2011)

Parasites/Anxiety? Try steeping Decaffeinated Green Tea in his tank, this could help with the clamping as they sometimes clamp due to stress-Green Tea is a cheaper way of mimicking their natural environment. He could have injured himself, bumped into a decoration or two, thus explaining the "gulps", but then again it takes a while for internal parasites to surface sometimes, in terms of making their presence known. I would suggest looking into treatments for internal parasites and the clamped fins. This is my opinion though, someone may be more knowledgeable in this than I. Swim Bladder could be a possibility as well.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

1fish2fish said:


> Very odd. Have you done another water change yet? Perhaps even put him in a cup with water from another tank who's fish isn't sick?


I haven't, but I just went ahead and put him a cup of water from my 20 gallon which is healthy and established. 
We will see if that perks him up. I felt like I needed to try something right away.



Fleetwood said:


> Parasites/Anxiety? Try steeping Decaffeinated Green Tea in his tank, this could help with the clamping as they sometimes clamp due to stress-Green Tea is a cheaper way of mimicking their natural environment. He could have injured himself, bumped into a decoration or two, thus explaining the "gulps", but then again it takes a while for internal parasites to surface sometimes, in terms of making their presence known. I would suggest looking into treatments for internal parasites and the clamped fins. This is my opinion though, someone may be more knowledgeable in this than I. Swim Bladder could be a possibility as well.


He seems to be swimming just fine, so I don't think the cause is swim bladder related. Internal parasites seem like a likely possibility since he is flashing. Should I start him on a course of the anti-parasite food I have? Right now he is in a cup of aquarium water from my 20 gallon, so not sure if the green tea is a good idea. I would worry about putting too much.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

How is his poop looking? It is white and stringy or is it normal? Also, you may want to shine a flashlight on him and look for a gold/rust color to check for velvet.

*Internal Parasites*
•Symptoms: *Betta is losing weight but eating normally and acting lethargic. 
He/she might dart or rub against decor*
•Treatment: These can be hard to fight and can get confused with the fatal disease Tuberculosis. Perform daily 100% water changes (if possible, for larger aquariums change 3/4). Make sure you carefully clean the gravel to remove eggs/larva. Aq.Salt does not seem to be affective against internal parasites. I find combining ES with an anti-parasite med is best. Treat with 1-2tsp/gal Epsom Salt combined with either Jungle’s Anti-Parasite Pellets, Jungle’s Parasite Clear Fizz tabs or API General Cure. PP is also effective against internal parasites.

*External Parasites*
•Symptoms: You may see parasites (other than ick) or you may not*. Pay special attention to the area around the gills and fins. May dart and rub against decor, lose interest in food, lethargy, color loss*
•Treatment: Some parasites can be treated conservatively with Aquarium Salt. For salt treatments, treat as you would with Ick. If conservative treatment does not work or if you have extenuating circumstances then there are a number of medications you could use. API’s General Cure and Jungle’s Parasite Clear fizz tablets are both affective ways to kill parasites. Do not combine with Aq.Salt.
•Alternative Medicines: I like PP for all stubborn external infections. It has never failed me, but it should only be used as a last resort.

*Velvet*
•Symptoms: Can be found by shining a flashlight on your betta. If it looks like it is covered in fine gold of rust colored dust then it has velvet. *Clamped Fins, no appetite, darting/rubbing, loss of color, lethargic *
•Treatment: It is very contagious so you should treat the entire tank. Treat as you would treat Ick


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## Fleetwood (Jul 8, 2011)

I would start him on the food, yes. It could be effective against both forms of parasites-depending on the brand, of course. Tikibirds has _*excellent*_ advice, I'd start him on the food and start looking or shopping around for medications/treatments just in case. Still, taking preventive measures is always good. 

As for worrying about steeping too much Green Tea, just one or two bags until the water is a greenish/brown or tea like color. It all depends on what you're comfortable with. However, I see your worry given he is in a small cup. Just for future reference, Green Tea also helps with their immune system and scales as well.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Since it's sounding more and more like external parasites, I'd try 3 tsps of AQ salt and high heat (86 F) or General Cure. For ease in dosing, mix the AQ salt up in a 1 gallon jug.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Words cannot express how grateful I am to have your guys help! You all have great advice! I'm definitely learning more about these kinds of problems.

Could this be velvet? See pictures and video below. I have no experience with this disease, but I'm definitely seeing a dusting of what looks like gold dust. I don't see it when the flashlight isn't on him. Sounds like he has all the symptoms for it as well. 

He had a bowel movement while in the cup, it has a normal color.



















Video:


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Sorry for the double post, but... I went ahead and turned off his light because I heard that can help. The heater I have in his tank isn't adjustable, so that is a bit of problem since it sounds like raising the temp to 82 is helpful. 

All I have on hand is Aquarium Salt, API Super Ick Cure, and Methylene Blue. 

Should I wait and buy coppersafe tomorrow? Any other treatment recommendations?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If you've never seen iridescent gold dusting on him before, it certainly does seem like it could be velvet. Here's a suggestion: shine the flashlight on his face. Does he have gold specks on his eyeballs? Does it look like has any on his body, though? Or just his fins? Velvet attacks EVERYTHING, even the eyes (which is why I asked). If it's not on his body, he may have flukes or another similar parasite that is invisible to the naked eye. 

Coppersafe is potent stuff and generally I prefer not to use it. Once you get copper in your tanks, you practically have to buy a copper testing kit to make sure you get it out. Rather, if it IS velvet or even another external parasite, the better course would be:

3 tsps of aquarium salt per gallon, high heat to 86 F, darken the tank as much as possible. It's no exaggeration to say some people even stuff the tank into a dark closet when it's velvet. The little suckers are light-responsive so depriving them of light shortens their lifespan or something like that.

As with ich, you'll want to do daily water changes to remove any parasites that fall off. If he seems like he is having a hard time breathing in the warm water, put an airstone in.

Hmm, just checked. Looks like you may need an adjustable heater? Good adjustable 25w heaters include Hagen Elite, Penn Plax Cascade, and possibly AquaClear. Local fish stores usually have these harder to find names. I know the Pet Club in Elk Grove has them all but that's quite a drive . . . 

I hope this helps. He's such a strikingly handsome betta.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

I figured out the heating problem. I put him in a 3 gallon critter keeper with the heater that came with my 10 gallon kit. It's adjustable so I can slowly bring the heat up to 86 F. I wrapped a blanket around the tank to keep him in darkness and put 3 teaspoons of aquarium salt in.

I'm a bit confused, getting conflicting info on a few things from another forum. I was told 1 tsp per gallon, 82 F, that it looks like velvet, and to get coppersafe.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Coppersafe is used for external parasites, which I beleive is what velvet is.
I have never had to deal with Velvet, so I can't offer any advice. Just be careful with some of these meds. Some are pretty potent and some, like bettafix and melefix can be more harmful then useful.



> *** *Stabilized copper effectively treats external parasites - Ich, velvet, flukes, and more* *** *Maintains a therapeutic level of copper safe for fish but effective against parasites* *** *Anti-parasitic treatment for aquarium fish - one dose treats for one month* Safely treat external parasites such as Ich, flukes, anchor worms, and velvet/protozoan diseases in saltwater and freshwater aquariums. CopperSafe, a unique stabilized form of chelated copper, is designed to maintain a therapeutic level of copper that is safe for fish but effective against parasites. Convenient Acu-measure bottle lets you quickly, easily, accurately measure the correct dosage - with no mess. One dose lasts for one month. 4 oz doses 100 gallons. For freshwater or saltwater fish-only aquariums.





> *Directions for Use:*
> Use 5 ml for 4 gallons of water. Loosen measuring chamber cap and squeeze bottle to fill to desired level. One application treats water for one month. DO NOT overdose. *Active Ingredients:* Chelated Copper Sulfate.
> *Precautions:* CopperSafe may be harmful to plants and some snails. If possible, remove plants and invertebrates without an exoskeleton from the aquarium. Otherwise, treat fish in a separate quarantine tank. Keep out of reach of children. For aquarium use only.
> CopperSafe is intended for the exclusive use with ornamental fish and/or ornamental organisms and is not intended for use with humans or fish for human consumption.
> ...


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## Fleetwood (Jul 8, 2011)

Yeah, now that I have seen photos, this certainly sounds like Velvet to me. Regardless of the treatment or illness, you are taught to be careful. I've treated Bettas with good intentions and all, thinking I knew enough about the medication and procedure and then I'd discover a dead fish due to my personal error or misinformation, it's best to take preventive measures of course, anti-parasitic food, Green Tea to boost the immune system, strengthen scales, Dechlor...
but sometimes, you just run into something like this that just startles you a bit. I had one Betta that literally decayed in front of me and there was nothing I could do. Just be careful with the medication dosage and form your own opinion based on medication reviews/experience that others have had. Copper is hard to remove from your water, but if you're accustomed to checking your tank's balance, it shouldn't be hard to keep it in check.

Just start one treatment that you think is best and if you see improvements? Awesome! If there is improvement but not at the speed you feel would be best for your fish, try something else, but allow each treatment to take its course.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

oh my, now I know what velvet looks like :O and what it does!
good luck with your betta!


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

I went ahead and got the coppersafe. I'm using a 3 gallon critter keeper that I can just toss afterwards so I don't have to worry about lingering copper.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

good luck!!!

has anyone heard the myth of "12 copper pennies can cure velvet"?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Velvet:







When a case of velvet gets as bad as Gershwin had it (bought him like this from Petco), it can go internal and really cause some damage. Glad you caught it early, Lion.

The instructions I got for treating velvet, with 3 tsps AQ salt and high heat at 86 F I got from DarkMoon17. In my case, she definitely didn't recommend Coppersafe because Gershwin was so weak but your handsome boy is much stronger and healthier so he should be able to handle it. 

Best of luck, Lion! Keep us updated.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Thank you for the help, Sakura. 

He has kept a good appetite and has become significantly more active. 
His fins are still clamped tight and color is off though.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm glad to hear he's become more active. It takes a while to knock out velvet. It's a hard one because the cyst stage is resistant to chemical treatment. So you can kill the adults but you have to wait for the babies to grow up before the treatment will work. Hang in there!


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

He seems to be feeling better. He is active again and even made a bubble nest, his first one since he's been here. What a weirdo. Anyway, I'm not feeling too confident that this is Velvet after seeing one with a really bad case at Petco. Right now he is in a hospital tank, in a dark bathroom, 82 F water and no salt. Still using coppersafe.

Something I noticed (which may be the real problem or related to the coppersafe?) is his gills are very red and seem to be sticking out more than normal? When he takes air at the surface of the water his gills actually make a noise, which is odd. 










This picture shows the stuff on his face, which I'm unsure if it's related to the illness or just him developing more color. He is a Marble, after all. :-?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. His gills do look quite inflamed. Normally I'd suspect gill flukes but the Coppersafe should take care of that if he does have them. My next suspicion would be ammonia poisoning but if it is that, it's leftover scar tissue from past ammonia poisoning that he suffered before you got him. It looks like he may have some gill hyperplasia because of that scar tissue or inflammation and that's what's causing the gills to stick out. Epsom salt can help reduce the swelling but most of the time, gill hyperplasia is permanent. He should be okay but he'll have to breathe from the surface more often.


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## Fleetwood (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm glad to see he's doing better. Yes, his gills look quite inflamed, but I, too, think he'll be fine. [:


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