# Which male should I breed?



## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

So as my name implies I prefer plakat bettas above all types of finnage. To me natural is most beautiful. I wish to do a spawn, however I happen to have two males which I can't decide which I want to spawn. I wont post a picture of the female because I couldn't get one but you can imagine her if I describe her. She is a green plakat. Not mettalic or anything. Just normal green with black face. Nothing special. I'm having a hard time deciding which male I want to spawn her with though. First runner up is actually a HMPK Koi male. I actually like regular plakat over HMPK but he is so pretty I can't help but consider him. He is bright red with beautiful golden spots and some black spots as well. Never seen anything like him before. The other is a plakat that is black bodied and blue fins. Which do you think I should spawn? What would be the likely outcome color wise of either pairing? Also if I did spawn my HMPK to my plakat female would I get all plakat fry or would I get some HM? I attached pictures of the males. Thanks in advance guys!!!! :-D


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## Laelia (Apr 2, 2016)

Your bettas are beautiful! What are you looking for in the offspring? I would list the pros and cons of breeding either fish and see which one appeals better to you. Also making a list of features you want in your line could also help (works with future spawns as well, it gives you a goal to work towards). ;-) Good luck!


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## alecmerkel (Sep 17, 2015)

Depends on what your goals as a breeder are. I like the color of the second betta and the form of the first.


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

Well ultimately my goal is to have a line of colorful healthy plakats. I've done a few spawns before but have only really been breeding for a couple years off and on. I at the moment have no intention of breeding show quality bettas. At least not until I have a couple more years of experience under my belt. I just love plakats and where I'm from they are hard to come by and because of their "rarity" I know plenty of people who are interested in them as well and have no problem finding homes for the offspring. My thoughts are that I will probably get better color out of my HMPK Koi male so I am leaning that way. He is also older that my other male. So if I do decide to breed him time is of the essence, and I can always then latter incorporate the black plakat into the line. Maybe by breeding him to one of the offspring of the Koi. So what would be the outcome of me breeding my HMPK to a pure plakat female? Will I get plakat fry or am I likely to get long finned as well. I'm thinking worst case scenario is I get 75% plakat and 25% HMPK and maybe a couple of full Half moons. What are your thoughts on this guys?


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## Laelia (Apr 2, 2016)

Some people will mix DTs with HMs or other tails for a larger/wider dorsal, so I would think you would get a mix. What type of plakat is your female, is she the rounded tail one (the traditional one)? Your koi looks to be an asymmetrical plakat, while your black male is a traditional plakat. 

Red is pretty dominate, but depending on the females color, you may get an extremely variable spawn. Royal blue, steel blue and turquoise (also known as green and I believe it's the most dominate of the three) they are all pretty connected, so you may end up with a few of each (depending on what the male has). Koi, I believe are marble, so he could throw marbles and maybe a couple butterflies. I'm not sure how dominate/recessive masks are, but you will probably end up with a couple black masked bettas too. Sounds like a cool mix to me!


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

Laelia said:


> Some people will mix DTs with HMs or other tails for a larger/wider dorsal, so I would think you would get a mix. What type of plakat is your female, is she the rounded tail one (the traditional one)? Your koi looks to be an asymmetrical plakat, while your black male is a traditional plakat.
> 
> Red is pretty dominate, but depending on the females color, you may get an extremely variable spawn. Royal blue, steel blue and turquoise (also known as green and I believe it's the most dominate of the three) they are all pretty connected, so you may end up with a few of each (depending on what the male has). Koi, I believe are marble, so he could throw marbles and maybe a couple butterflies. I'm not sure how dominate/recessive masks are, but you will probably end up with a couple black masked bettas too. Sounds like a cool mix to me!


The female is a traditional turquoise/green plakat. Both the female and the black and blue male are 100% traditional plakat. I know that for sure. Honestly that is what I prefer. However my HMPK male has better coloring imo, so I was thinking maybe by breeding him to my traditional plakat female I might get his colors and her form. That is what would be ideal for me. But unlike the other two I do not know the history of the koi male. Which is why I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not I want to gamble on him. Not sure about Koi being marble though. I have had him for a while and his color and patterns have never changed. I could be wrong though. But honestly that would be a plus, having a line of marble traditional plakats would be awesome. Don't see that often. So assuming he is pure HMPK with nothing else in there like DT or anything, and the female is a traditional plakat what would be the outcome of that? I'm thinking atleast 75% plakat fry.


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## alecmerkel (Sep 17, 2015)

I use to have a great line of Koi's. Only have one female left. I decided to stop breeding them for shallow reasons. A lot of koi's change color once they are 8 months. The white usually changes to black because of the Marble Gene aka jumping gene. I did not like this very much.


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## Laelia (Apr 2, 2016)

You should end up with 100% plakat fry, because they are all plakats, unless someone has some hidden genes (such as a VT gene). I'm pretty sure, just because he's a HMPK doesn't mean he'll throw long finned babies (HM, Deltas, SD). Anyway they are a recessive gene and won't throw them, unless they both have the HM, CT or even the DT gene. This is my favorite website, take a look! http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABtailtypegenetics.htm


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

alecmerkel said:


> I use to have a great line of Koi's. Only have one female left. I decided to stop breeding them for shallow reasons. A lot of koi's change color once they are 8 months. The white usually changes to black because of the Marble Gene aka jumping gene. I did not like this very much.


Marble Koi plakat line sounds awesome! Thanks you just sold me on breeding my HMPK. Will start conditioning the pair today.


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

Laelia said:


> You should end up with 100% plakat fry, because they are all plakats, unless someone has some hidden genes (such as a VT gene). I'm pretty sure, just because he's a HMPK doesn't mean he'll throw long finned babies (HM, Deltas, SD). Anyway they are a recessive gene and won't throw them, unless they both have the HM, CT or even the DT gene. This is my favorite website, take a look! http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-AABtailtypegenetics.htm


I was under the impression that long finned, regardless of the specific type was partially dominate. In that if you breed a plakat to a halfmoon for example the offsring would be somewhere in between the two in terms of fin length. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## Laelia (Apr 2, 2016)

You shouldn't have to worry, the only long fin gene I of know thats semi dominate or dominate is VT. 

Koi bettas are amazingly colored, I'd love to start a line of them. Maybe someday... :-D Good luck!


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

Laelia said:


> You shouldn't have to worry, the only long fin gene I of know thats semi dominate or dominate is VT.
> 
> Koi bettas are amazingly colored, I'd love to start a line of them. Maybe someday... :-D Good luck!


Thanks you were a big help. I'll post pics in a thread when I get the spawn going!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

PlakatFan said:


> I was under the impression that long finned, regardless of the specific type was partially dominate. In that if you breed a plakat to a halfmoon for example the offsring would be somewhere in between the two in terms of fin length. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


Yep all longfin is dominant over short fin so long fin x shortfin = longfin (unless the longfin is carrying the shortfin gene) Its imposible for 2 shortfinned fish to give any longfinned fish in a spawn
You can sometimes get PK with very long anals if you put HM into the line but genetically they are still shortfin and behave as such

All of the tail types use more than one gene, for example
VT is just the longfin version of PK ( genes for 2 ray, round tail, pointy anal etc) 
HM is just longfin gene combined with the genes for 4+ rays, straight tail edges, 180 caudal etc
CT is just web reduction and can be in any fin length or fin type (CT, CTPK, DTCT etc)

So crossing HM to VT will give you more than just VT, since theres a lot of genes playing around for both types. The VT is fighting for less rays and round tails, while the HM is fighting for more rays and sharp tails. As a result youll get a mix of things, usually 2-4 rays, round tails, VT to super delta spread.

Same thing will happen if you cross HMPK to PK, since the same genes are competing with each other (except for the longfin gene) and I find the PK x HMPK can reach 180 quite a lot easier than their long finned cousins of the same type of cross

Heres a PK x HMPK spawn I did ages ago so you can get an idea on form.
You can see theres was a lot of influence from the PK father (round tail, less rays etc)



And others looked a bit more HMPK but you can see even though I got the 180 spread of the HMPK, the round tails from the PK was present in all fry. (which is handy since you want to go in the PK direction  )


Colourwise from red marble x solid irid youd get dark body reds, high irids, solid with redwash and marble

Black lace x solid irid, Id guess black lace, solids and maybe some marble

Of course this is all guesswork an the only way to know for sure is to try it out 

Id go for the HMPK boy so you can get the colour as you selectively breed your fish back towards true PK shape :-D


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## Laelia (Apr 2, 2016)

Your bettas are beautiful Trilobite! I love the one in the first picture! Is the long fin gene really dominate over short fin? So both are recessive, but when combined the long fin gene takes over?


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

trilobite said:


> Yep all longfin is dominant over short fin so long fin x shortfin = longfin (unless the longfin is carrying the shortfin gene) Its imposible for 2 shortfinned fish to give any longfinned fish in a spawn
> You can sometimes get PK with very long anals if you put HM into the line but genetically they are still shortfin and behave as such
> 
> All of the tail types use more than one gene, for example
> ...


WOW, that metallic green and orange. SO AWESOME! Looking at those pictures just makes me jealous. And that marble female too. So gorgeous. I went with the Koi HMPK. He already has a good sized nest going and I released the female this afternoon. Hopefully within the next few hours they will get down to business. I'm really excited about getting some marble fry, hope I get a good brother sister pair to get things going. Then from there working my line into a traditional plakat form. From the looks of your bettas I'd say you know your stuff pretty well. Thanks for the info.


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## jaliberti (Mar 13, 2016)

PlakatFan said:


> So as my name implies I prefer plakat bettas above all types of finnage. To me natural is most beautiful. ...


Have you considered wild Betta splendens?


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Laelia said:


> Your bettas are beautiful Trilobite! I love the one in the first picture! Is the long fin gene really dominate over short fin? So both are recessive, but when combined the long fin gene takes over?


Yep longfin dominates shortfin. So anything that has short fins, no matter what tail type (pk, hmpk, ctpk, dtpk etc) will lose out if crossed with anything with longfins (vt, hm, ct, dt etc) The only way to get short fin from a long fin x short fin cross is if the long fin parent was carrying the shortfin gene. Otherwise 100% longfins will occur.

Fin length is controlled by one gene, but tail type is often controlled by many different genes. So for example, crossing a hmpk to a vt will result in 100% long finned fry but the shape of the fins is a lot harder to determine, since the genes for less rays and round tail are competing against genes for more rays and sharp tail. Hopefully Ive made sense, I can be good at rambling sometimes lol

Plakatfan, good luck with your spawn and keep us updated on the results :-D


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

jaliberti said:


> Have you considered wild Betta splendens?


I would LOVE to breed wild type bettas!!! I've considered Betta Smaragdina, Betta Imbellis, Betta Mahachai, and of course Bella Splendens, wild type. The problem is it is hard to find a pair, and even harder to find one that is actually pure. Most specimens bred and sold to hobbyists are hybrids, and worse still natural hybridization does occur because man has released betta splendens into areas where other betta species dominated and betta splendens was absent. Meaning that even if you get a specimen that is wild caught there is still a good chance it is really a hybrid to some degree. However if I could ever find a source of pure wild type bettas, be it splendens or another similar species I would jump on opportunity to breed them and preserve them in their natural form. It would be a tragedy if any one of these species was lost forever due to human hybridization or intervention and I would feel honored if I could in some small way preserve a species and make it more available to other betta enthusiasts. If you do know where I could find true wild type bettas of any species please PM me and let me know. I'd be very interested.


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## jaliberti (Mar 13, 2016)

Much of the _splendens_ complex, e.g. _smaragdina_, _imbellis_, etc, has been interbred, and finding pure _splendens_ is becoming increasingly difficult. I'd imagine there are isolated lines in the hands of enthusiasts, but the gene pool is small and genetic erosion will only become more prevalent. 

Supposedly wild type _splendens_ are available on AquaBid from time to time, a close look at the photos however, IMO, reveals otherwise. 

Here are 3 recent auctions, the 1st 2 are the same fish, different auctions. Note too the dates, and the feedback of the 3rd auction. I can't help to cynically believe that the 3rd was tacked up there when an opportunistic newbie saw the other previous auction and was looking for a quick buck. Either way, IMO neither fish have been wild for very long. 

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_archive_item&fwbettas1456164851

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettas1456772014

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettas1456759700

The body is the give away. Too muscular. I worked with wild _splendens_ 11 years ago, during 2005, and regret not maintaining pairs when I returned to USA. They are slender, closer in body shape to the _coccina_ complex than today's _splendens_. The females bred without even being noticeably gravid. 

The species will never be, as you mention, "lost forever due to human hybridization or intervention." It will never make the IUCN Red List. 

Wild DNA is present in all domestic _splendens_. So, theoretically, if all captive _splendens_ were confiscated and redistributed evenly in suitable waterways the wild form would return within a few generations. Ornamentals would disintegrate in minutes, having all bled to death when Fighter Plakats removed their finnage, and would never be passed on in spite of the "dominance" of long fins. Some Fighter Plakats would breed, but the most muscular of their progeny would be inefficient at slipping into nooks, crannies, and crevices to feed, and would either starve to death or simply achieve sexually maturity after the more slender specimens had already bred. But I digress.


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## PlakatFan (Oct 5, 2011)

jaliberti said:


> Much of the _splendens_ complex, e.g. _smaragdina_, _imbellis_, etc, has been interbred, and finding pure _splendens_ is becoming increasingly difficult. I'd imagine there are isolated lines in the hands of enthusiasts, but the gene pool is small and genetic erosion will only become more prevalent.
> 
> Supposedly wild type _splendens_ are available on AquaBid from time to time, a close look at the photos however, IMO, reveals otherwise.
> 
> ...


I've looked at Aquabids wild type section quite a bit in pursuit of wild type betta smaragdina and agree with you in saying everything posted on their seems to be a hybrid or obviously not wild type. Very discouraging.


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## alecmerkel (Sep 17, 2015)

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettas&1460786008

Not splenden, but very nice wild type.


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