# S-shaped spine, need some clarification



## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

I've had my little guy Axel for about a year and a half now. For the most part, he's been happy and healthy. I moved him across town a while ago and he contracted a bit of fin rot, but I took care of it with some aquarium salt, Maracyn and Maracyn Two and his fins have healed. 

Now, it's been about 6 months since the move, but I came downstairs to find him lying on the bottom of the tank with his spine contorted into an S shape. He didn't really seem to be able to move much. 

I pulled out a small breeder tank that floats in the main tank, removed the plastic insert, and very gently scooped him into that with my hand so he wouldn't have to swim far to reach the surface. 

After doing some Internet hunting I found that both Swim Bladder Disease and, oddly, tuberculosis cause a twisted spine. I'm pretty sure it's SBD, but I wanted some help on making sure that's it and what exactly to do with this. 

Here's the form:

Housing
What size is your tank? *5 gallons*
What temperature is your tank? *78 degrees* *F*
Does your tank have a filter? *Yes*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? *Yes*
Is your tank heated? *Yes*
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *None*

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? *Hikari Betta Bio-Gold pellets*
How often do you feed your betta fish? *2 pellets daily, skipping once per week*

Maintenance
How often do you perform a water change? *Weekly*
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? *20-25%*
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Mostly just the tap water treater. I use the API brand. Very infrequently I'll add a very small amount of KH/GH booster and aquarium salt if I see the pH and hardness beginning to waver.*

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: *0ppm*
Nitrite: *0ppm*
Nitrate: *10ppm*
pH: *7.5*
Hardness: *75*
Alkalinity: *180*

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *S-shaped spine*
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *Very lethargic*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? *Today*
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?* Moved him into a breeder tank, but no medication used yet.*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? *Fin rot, but that's it*
How old is your fish (approximately)? *Approaching 2 years*


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I wouldn't use anything that effects gh/kh. The swings can be lethal. Are you saying your regular tap water has an unstable kh or you are trying to treat it to a specific place? Some tap water is unstable and must be aged up to 48-72hours to stabilize.

Can you share photos? What color is his poop? Is he bloated at all?

In something so small I would increase to 50% changes. It needs to include using a siphon and not just taking water off the top.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

No, he's not bloated. His poop seems to still be a normal color, light brownish, no blood visible.

I'd include a picture but my phone doesn't have a camera, nor do I have a camera.

As for the water changes, no I didn't mention a siphon, but I do in fact use one. Nitrate isn't going higher than 10ppm every week, then I change it and it goes away. I never have ammonia or nitrite. I'll stick to 25%. If I go any higher it'll disrupt the bacteria.

I'd always thought it was 5g (which, compared to the tiny bowls people stick these fish in, really isn't small and is large enough to sustain betta and bacteria healthily with filtration and heat) but after reading your post I looked at his tank compared to another 5g I have and took the volume measurement; it's actually about 8g and I'll fix that in my first post.

Yes, my tap water is very unstable. If I don't treat it, the pH plummets.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Actually you can do a full water change and not harm the bacteria. The bacteria lives on surfaces and the filter, not in the water, but it sounds like your water changes are ok then.

What is the kh and gh of the untreated tap water? Of the water post treatment? What exactly are you using to treat? How low does it ever dip before you retreat it? I would instead suggest just aging the water instead of artificially treating it to be higher which is going to cause swings which can kill him at worst case scenario. This is what I'm most concerned about.

If he's not bloated and his poop is normal it's not SBD. Causes of spine deformation that have come on later in life are fish TB, internal parasites, malnutrition, or injury. Since his poop is normal it does not appear to be internal parasites. Are you sure he didn't get stuck tot he intake of the filter and then wiggle himself free? Do you have an HOB?


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

That's interesting to know. I'll keep it in mind for the future and also start aging the water before adding it. You said 3-4 days? 

TB doesn't seem likely either since he isn't thin, but I could be wrong, I only read one site describing TB symptoms. 

What do you mean by malnutrition? He was fed regularly, never grew thin, was always super energetic before today. 

I forgot to include his treats. I feed him a daphnia fly soaked in tank water weekly after his water change. I also have a pack of Aqueon betta food I feed a pellet from every so often to change up the nutrients, but it's regularly the Bio Gold. 

Think I need to change up his diet?

EDIT: I meant to ask too, doesn't SBD have the opposite symptoms of not being able to inflate properly? Or is it only that it'll inflate and cause the fish to not be able to sink? I was pretty sure the opposite form existed, too.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It depends on your water. Some are okay 24 hours. Others take up to 3 days. You'll have to test for a while and see where yours stabilizes. Just make sure you heat it back up to tank temp before using it. Personally, I use 5 gallon buckets like those bright orange Home Depot buckets and an extra heater.

I'm just telling you the things that cause the curved spine. His diet isn't the best but it's not bad. There are better quality pellets than Hikari, imho. The best pellets have the first two or three ingredients instead of fish meal or wheat (fish byproducts.. think McDonald's chicken nuggets) so you could try switching up his food but that's up to you. I don't think it's causing his spine curve.

SBD is usually caused by constipation and includes bloat and possibly odd poop. You can have swim bladder injury that would include sunken perhaps.. he doesn't sound like he has SBD to me. The part of SBD that causes curved is the bloat. Internal parasites can also effect the swim bladder and the betta will be skinny with sunken belly, but again that produces odd poop.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

What would the poop look like, perchance? I haven't seen a color change but maybe there's something I'm missing because I don't know what I'm looking for.

If it's not SBD, I suppose I could try a parasite medication, though I see no signs of parasites really aside from the spine curve. I don't like medicating with no evidence, but if I have no other option I'll do it.

As far as I know he hasn't had a chance to injure himself. There's a gap behind the filter between it and the glass he likes to go in, but the intake is a tube extending to the tank bottom with a vented cover over it so the fish don't get caught in it (Aqueon QuietFlow, I forget the number, made for 5-10g tanks). Obviously, I've never handled him except to put him in the breeder tank today. 

If it isn't SBD, I'm just confused as to what it could be.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

Update! After a day, he's still the same as he was yesterday, but now I'm seeing external signs and a change in his poop. His poop looks less curled-up and lighter in color (I'm seeing it clearly since it's falling into the little breeder tank). 

His fins have developed some odd, small, flecked white spots. (Not salt-like, but I suppose it's better than just the S-shaped spine. I don't think it's ich, but maybe it's setting in from the current illness.)

Internal parasites? Or something else?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Should look the color of his pellets and be relatively thin and not too long or too round. 

It's hard to say anything without a photo but I wouldn't think he'd have a parasite infection because you haven't introduced anything that could have parasites.. like if you were feeding live or even frozen foods I'd be more inclined to say parasites. He lives by himself.. you didn't note introducing anything new recently..

Without seeing photos it's hard to diagnose anything. Are the spots fuzzy? Can you look on google and try to find something that it looks like?

At this point, if I were to add anything more than epsom salts, or immune boosters like vitachem and IAL, I would be aiming for internal bacterial and looking for Kanaplex.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

Normally the poop looks like a little ball, but it's unraveled. It's definitely lighter than his pellets today.










The spots on this fish's pectoral fin look like the ones I'm seeing now. They're not fuzzy, just white and shiny. They're only on his tail and anal fin.

I haven't introduced anything and have never fed him live or frozen food.

I'll start aiming towards internal bacterial, the symptoms seem vague and he only really has one of them (lethargy), but I suppose with something like that it could be affecting his organs and causing the S-shaped spine. 

I'll see if my store has Kanaplex. Is Maracyn Two a decent option as well? I have some of that on hand.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Ball means constipation. It's okay that it's not so ballish anymore.

I would look for a different pellet to feed him, because Hikari are full of wheat and fillters.. depending on the one you have it's either primarily fish meal (fish byproducts.. think McDonald's Chicken Nuggets) or wheat which is the worst. A good quality pellet should have the first two or three ingredients as _whole_ fish. If you can find New Life Spectrum Betta you can feed 5-8 split up into two smaller meals and one fast day a week. Since he has been on so few (2 is really minimum and pretty low) I would start lower at 4-5 and see how he does then think about adding more if he stays regular.

Sounds like Ich actually. I'd start with that.. salt at 1 tsp per gallon predissolved and increase temp slowly to the 86-88 range with one degree per hour and no more than 5 degrees per day. Leave the temp this high a week past the last sign of ick and the salt can be used up to 10 days then you will need to do a series of water changes to remove it.

I'd also be looking for ways to boost his immune system by vitachem, or IAL, or getting some garlic guard or fresh organic garlic and crushing it and soaking his pellets for 10minutes in the garlic juices.

Maracyn 2 will not work for internal infections.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

Really? I've never heard of Ich causing spinal contortion. It's certainly better than nothing at this point. My first betta had Ich, just like you said, I put the temp to about 85 and added salt. 

How about water changes during treatment? Should I be doing them every day or every other day to help remove the parasites? I know the heat should kill them off and keep them from continuing their life cycle, but would water changes help?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

He may be holding himself like that due to stress but what you are describing physically on the outside is ich, and I don't have anything better to add for what might be going on internally since you say he looks normal and poops normal.

You could do a couple 50% changes a week but I wouldn't do it every day. It's not needed in your cycled tank and you don't want to cause more stress.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

Ok. I've been raising the temp 1 degree per hour and it's now gone from 78 to 81. I'll increase it two more times before I go to bed and raise it the other two degrees tomorrow. 

I went ahead and did a 50% change before adding the salt (he was due for his weekly change today anyways, I just increased it for the illness). I put the salt in the new water and dissolved it and only added his water treater additionally.

I really don't add the kH/gH booster much (Microbe-Lift is the company that makes it), just about every two months, if that, and it's a very small amount, only half of the recommended amount for my tank. With its help though, the pH has stayed at 7.5 (when I first got him, my testing kit was showing 5.0, but that was the lowest it could read, so for all I knew it could've been lower) and nothing else has changed since. 

All the same, I'll stick with your advice of aging the water from now on, I have my clean-water bucket sitting with some water aging now, I just didn't have it on hand for the change today.


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

Update! Increased the temp to 86 today. He's still the same, but seemed a bit more active, actually tried to come to the surface when I approached the tank. Tomorrow I may increase it again to 88 just to be safe. 

I opened his lid and took a close look at him. The white spots still haven't spread to his body, maybe because they're already responding to the heat. His scales look a little white and flaky on the back of his head in small patches though.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

This could be the start of columnaris.. Look for Kanaplex, Triple Sulfa or Furan 2, preference in this order.

unfortunately columnaris thrives at temperatures over 80, so it's possible that in trying to treat probable ick you jump started it.

It's a hard choice because you can't treat ich in low temps but if he has bacterial infection as well you don't want to speed it up. I have to say that both are conditions of fish stress/poor water quality. I know you didn't like doing more than a small water change weekly, but I really think long term it's needed.

I would definitely be looking for ways to boost his immune system.. vitachem, crush organic garlic and soak his pellets in the juice.. something..


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## Azurelove (Feb 9, 2013)

I already did the Vitachem starting Sunday. As of just a half an hour ago, he's dead. It had to have been TB, the timeframe of death from the emergence of the spinal twist fits and he had almost all the other symptoms.

The water quality was fine, I had no reason to up the changes. 25% removed the nitrate that was present. My other fish are perfectly healthy and I've had them almost the same amount of time (minus Carnage, who I got to replace the fish that jumped out of his tank).

So now I have to throw everything away that ever touched his tank since it was probably TB and I have no reason to think otherwise at this point.


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