# Bloated, mildly pineconing fish



## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Housing 
What size is your tank? *10L, roughly 3 gallons*
What temperature is your tank? *25 Celsius*
Does your tank have a filter? *Yes, a sponge filter*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?* Yes*
Is your tank heated?* Yes*
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *A java fern*

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? *Atison's Betta Pro, sometimes cooked shrimp*
How often do you feed your betta fish? *Twice a day, dwindled down from 6+ pellets each time to 1-3 pellets now*

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?* Not too often, but approximately once or twice a week now*
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? *Around 50%*
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Indian almond leaves. ~1 teaspoon of epsom salt as well, now.*

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *Suspected that he has a tumor growing, noticed it about a month ago. Tumor seemed to subside after a while, but now he has a generalised bloat as well as slight pineconing.*
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *Has become very lethargic*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? *Symptoms started a month ago*
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *~1 tsp/gal Epsom salt, added half a capful of Maracyn Plus yesterday*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? *None prior to this, was rescued from terrible living conditions about a year ago and had been healthy until very recently.*
How old is your fish (approximately)?* Around 2 years old*

I found a tumour-like growth on Boris about a month ago, and started to treat it using a combination of epsom salt + indian almond leaves as per OFL's recommendations. The tumour did look like it was starting to subside, but the general lethargy didn't go away. He stayed on the bottom most of the time, looking generally disinterested (even in food, and he was a massive glutton before this). Instead of a tumour he now looks like he has some sort of generalised bloat, which seems indicative of swim bladder disorder...

Then I committed a bunch of mistakes... such as moving him into a new 28L tank which he hated (was too deep), and moving him back to his old 10L food container. Adding Maracyn Plus did not seem to help, if anything I probably made it worse since he started to look pineconey about a day after (today).

Should I stop dosing the fish with more Maracyn Plus (I've only dosed once, description says I need to dose 3 times), since it appears to be making things worse?

Since I've made a few water changes during the epsom salt treatment, I found it quite difficult to keep track of the epsom salt concentration in the water. I'm tempted to increase the epsom salt dosage, but I really would prefer to measure it first before going ahead. Does anyone have any idea on how I might do that?


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

Kanaplex is supposed to be the drug to use for this condition. You might have to get it online. Pet mountain and Amazon.com sell it. You can try some of this advice. 
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/11/betta-with-dropsy.html

The only part I would not follow is the part about adding regular salt to the treatment. This is why (they talk about goldfish but note they also mention freshwater fish in general). The people writing the article are fish vets.
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/articles.html
I feel for you I just lost a fish with a similar condition. I hope you have luck treating him. If you cannot get Kanaplex some people have had luck with amoxicillan.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I would increase the Epsom salt dosage to at least 1 teaspoon per gallon. 

There are several ways to do this, and keep track of the dosage. Here is one way: 

Fill a 1 gal container with 1 gal of water.
Add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt. 
Add Water Conditioner. 
Stir or shake until the Epsom salt is completely dissolved. 
When you do partial water changes, simply use the solution in this container. This will give you a consistent 1 teaspoon per gallon dosage. 

Salts do not evaporate, so you do not need to add more. Simply use the container for your partial water changes, and your dosage will be correct.

The recommended dosages for Epsom salt range from 1 to 3 teaspoons per gallon. If you decide to go higher, just mix the desired amount of Epsom salt into your one gal container. As long as you use this for your water changes, you'll keep a consistent dosage.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks, I'll add the epsom salt to the water I've reserved for water changes. 

I live in Australia, so antibiotics are quite hard to get. The reason I waited so long to use Maracyn Plus was because I had to wait 3 weeks for it to arrive from the US.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

Perhaps you know someone with human amoxcillan that isn't too old then in a capsule. You'd probably only need one or two and it would have to be dosed for a fish. I know the label it as fishmox in some places if want to see if you can get it under fish form. The methylene blue should be possible to find.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I did some research on the active ingredients in Maracyn Plus: Sulfadimidine and Trimethoprim.

There is a similar product used in humans, that contains trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole. A study showed that it can injure the kidneys. (Meant to include the link, but I accidentally closed that browser tab.)

Do you think the tumor is due to a bacterial infection?

If you think he has a tumor that isn't caused by a bacterial infection, and you found that the Maracyn Plus made him worse, I would stop using it. It puts stress on the kidneys, which can contribute to bloat and fluid retention.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Hmm... ok, more reason to stop then. Almost all antibiotics seem to have some adverse effect on the kidney though, including kanaplex. 

I can get some human amoxycillin, I suppose, but I'm also not sure it really is a bacterial infection.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Kanaplex is very tough on the kidneys....
_"Kanamycin can cause severe damage to the kidneys and can also cause hearing loss. You will need to be closely monitored by your health care provider. Be sure your doctor is aware of any other medications you may be taking."_
http://www.drugs.com/cdi/kanamycin.html

Found this on amoxicillian.....:
_"The dose should be reduced in patients with severe renal function impairment."_
http://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/24951/spc


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

If this is a bacterial infection, using an antibiotic may be the only option, especially once it has reached dropsy. Yes, it will cause stress on the kidneys. Kanaplex is easier on kidneys then maracyn, I think.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

It hasn't reached dropsy yet, I think. The pineconing is very mild, and only barely noticeable.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Original image: http://i.imgur.com/f4YhAF0.jpg

Would that red patch be indicative of a bacterial infection?










Original image: http://i.imgur.com/zHMTsdD.jpg

This one shows the pineconing.

Have done a partial water change today, with 1.5 tsp/gal of epsom salt + one IAL in the new water.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> If this is a bacterial infection, using an antibiotic may be the only option, especially once it has reached dropsy. Yes, it will cause stress on the kidneys. Kanaplex is easier on kidneys then maracyn, I think.


Ah **** it, I'm hitting up the antibiotics. The only question now is whether I'll be better off using an amoxycillin pill, or maracyn plus.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Gave him a 100% water change with 2 tsp epsom salt/gal, saw no improvement after an hour so I've resumed treatment with Maracyn Plus, but pre-mixed and added slowly over half an hour this time. Finger crossing and nail-biting time. Have set the temperature to 28C as well.


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## jadaBlu (Feb 14, 2013)

I've been advised by a mod when I was treating my fish that marycyn is hard on the kidneys. I had one person tell me she cured her fish with fish mox. However, she did say it came again later (not immediately repeat episodes.)
Maybe this will help you decide I know reading is the last thing on your mind but glance through it:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html

I probably already posted this link for you. Most of it is good. The only advice I didn't think much of was add ingAQ salt to a medication mixture which would seem contradictory if a fish may have kidney issues.

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/11/betta-with-dropsy.html

I am up late and have to go to bed. I hope he improves.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks, I read those links the first time you posted them actually. The maracyn plus is already in the water... amoxycillin as a follow up dose might be a good idea. There's no way I'll be able to get methylene blue and kanaplex quickly enough.

But to be honest things aren't looking good. He's bloated up even more now, and I'm in the midst of increasing his epsom salt dosage to 3 tsp/gal.


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## themountain (May 9, 2013)

I am afraid its a lost case..sorry 
Usually the kidneys fail and then they are death candidates ...what a pitty


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Well, he looks like a friggin balloon now, BUT, the pineconing seems to have gotten better...? And he's moving around a bit more, albeit badly, like the way you'd expect a very obese person/fish to move.


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## ElizabethB (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm wishing you luck; I lost my favorite to dropsy just this morning.


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. Boris isn't looking great but he's fighting it.


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## ElizabethB (Sep 16, 2012)

Tachikoma said:


> I'm sorry for your loss. Boris isn't looking great but he's fighting it.


Perhaps you caught it early enough. I didn't realize how fatal dropsy can be; by the time I caught the pineconing it was pretty pronounced. I hope he pulls through for you. 

Just before mine passed she would swim to the top for air and then drift (no swimming at all) back down to the bottom of the hospital tank. Is that how Boris is moving?


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## Tachikoma (Jan 20, 2012)

Pretty much, I guess. Its an improvement over him lying flat on the side in his DIY betta log all the time, but that's not saying a lot.


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