# Ripped fins or rot?



## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

Housing 
What size is your tank? *2G*
What temperature is your tank? *27C/80F*
Does your tank have a filter? *No*
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? *No*
Is your tank heated? *No*
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? *None*

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? *Hikari pellets*
How often do you feed your betta fish? *5-7/day, 6 days/week*

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? *Twice weekly*
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? *30%*
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? *Seachem Prime*

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
*Yes, all safe, at minimum or none indicated at all. pH is 7.2, high range 7.4*

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? *Broken fins*
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *No*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? *Weeks ago*
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *Yes, just, with Myxazin for Fin Rot*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? *No*
How old is your fish (approximately)? *1 Year*

Hello,

I have had for a long time thought that my betta was nipping his fins or had it torn off ornaments or decorations in his tank, and have invested in some silk plants and floating objects for him to play with. However, as I didn't notice any improvement in his fins I decided to take a closer look with my camera and saw what I think could be instead a case of fin rot.

It started with his caudal fins, but recently I've noticed some colour on his left pectoral fin, which was otherwise fully transparent. I'm not sure if this is velvet, fin rot, my betta just developing new colours or something else.

Could someone help diagnose my betta's illness? I've just started a course of Myxazin (fin rot medicine) for good measure. Photo attached:










Thanks in advance!!


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Fin rot typically shows as black edges & I'm not seeing that in the pics. Have his fins stayed the same since you 1st noticed the damage, gotten worse or improved? Sometimes once damaged they don't quite grow back as fully as they once were & it can take a while for them to grow back. Personally I would do bigger water changes closer to 50%+ & throw in a 100% at least every 2 wks, this is what i do for my 2.5g unfiltered tank. IMO, meds are usually not needed just clean, warm, conditioned water.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

shellieca said:


> Fin rot typically shows as black edges & I'm not seeing that in the pics. Have his fins stayed the same since you 1st noticed the damage, gotten worse or improved? Sometimes once damaged they don't quite grow back as fully as they once were & it can take a while for them to grow back. Personally I would do bigger water changes closer to 50%+ & throw in a 100% at least every 2 wks, this is what i do for my 2.5g unfiltered tank. IMO, meds are usually not needed just clean, warm, conditioned water.


I've had him for 3 months already, and I noticed his fins ripped at about the forth week - I'm still not sure how, from nipping his own tail, fin rot or sharp ornaments.

They grew back for awhile but has since either stopped growing or gotten worse (I really can't tell). I only noticed the extra colours on his pectoral fin this week, hence the panic.

I added in some aquarium salt and dimmed his tank with a towel for a week in case of velvet, and had him rest for 2 days after before starting Myxazin (fin rot) treatment today.

I just shone a torchlight on him and noticed some very fine gold specs, completely invisible under normal light. I'm not sure if the salt wasn't enough or the velvet didn't go away (if there was velvet at all), but I don't remember seeing gold dust when I first got him.

Seems like I might have some very slow-acting fin rot AND velvet going on here! :-(


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

Fin regrowth is usually clear or white & then colors in later. I would keep his water clean & check the fins again with pics if possible again in a few days to a week. Compare the pics & you'll be able to see if there's any change. As for velvet, I've not dealt with it so I won't advise on that.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

shellieca said:


> Fin regrowth is usually clear or white & then colors in later. I would keep his water clean & check the fins again with pics if possible again in a few days to a week. Compare the pics & you'll be able to see if there's any change. As for velvet, I've not dealt with it so I won't advise on that.


I'll keep this thread updated with pics soon. Thank you somuch!! m(_ _)m


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

Doing only 30% water changes in a 2 gallon tank sounds very concerning. What are you using to test the water? Strips or a liquid test kit? Can you tell us the exact readings?

I am curious, how do you keep your tank at 80F/27C without a heater?


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

NorthernLights said:


> Doing only 30% water changes in a 2 gallon tank sounds very concerning. What are you using to test the water? Strips or a liquid test kit? Can you tell us the exact readings?
> 
> I am curious, how do you keep your tank at 80F/27C without a heater?


I don't remember the exact readings but I know they are waaaaay below the levels. Using the API Master Test Kit they all came in at or below 0.25ppm (5.0ppm for Nitrate).

I live in Singapore, near the equator where the temperature is between 24C/75F to 33C/91F all year round!


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

Any readable level of ammonia, nitrate, or nitrite is bad for the fish. They need to be at zero.


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## shellieca (Jul 12, 2012)

NorthernLights said:


> Any readable level of ammonia, nitrate, or nitrite is bad for the fish. They need to be at zero.


I agree with the ammonia & nitrites needing to be 0 but I've always heard from experienced fish keepers & read in my research that low nitrAtes were not harmful in any way. I'm curious why you believe otherwise.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

fin rot -dark or discolored edges that are ''smudged'',bloody tips, getting shorter, falling apart, large part of the tail just drop off, ragged edges, fins have been looking frayed.

velvet -Velvet is hard to spot, but can be best spotted with a flashlight. Shine the light on the betta’s body: if it looks like it is covered with a fine gold or rust mist, then it has velvet. A betta with velvet will act sick, so look for clamped fins, scratching against rocks/gravel/tank, loss of appetite, loss of color etc...

Ich -It is easy to diagnose a betta with external parasites: It will dart and scratch itself against anything it can find, such as gravel, rocks, heaters, tank walls, etc… You may or may not actually be able to see the parasites themselves. Look instead for a behavioral change in your betta. If it looks like it is on speed or acid, then it has parasites!! ))) Betta with ich also looks like sprinkled with salt or has white dots that will spread pretty fast.

velvet and ich is external parasites so you will treat the same. Since you noticed some very fine gold he might has velvet. 
I am going to give you the link to follow instruction . Check out my and LittleBlueFishlest instructions. Check post #6 and post #10

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=183737

Is he acting any differently like trying to scratch himself on objects, darting?

Also for 2 you need to do 1-50 and 1-100% water change a week. A lot of people will even recommend 2-50 and 1-100% a week..Unfortunately the water changes that you been doing is not enough at all. I would think that why he got sick. But hopefully you can treat him. It good that you dimmed the light since those exteranal parasites due to a photosynthetic process , meaning it will get worse with light.

Also you said that you just add some salt . Some salt will not help make sure you follow the instructions on that link i gave you . It very important to follow right dosage and right duration. 
And give us update because some times you also will need medications to use , it all depends i guess on severity and individual fish.

If you can treat fish in his main tank or you can quarantine him. I would take everything out from his tank and rinse it with hot water and just let it sit outside in the sun , make sure it completely dry out -it will kill any parasites. Just let it completely dry out. Put all stones separate so they don't touch each other. Do you have live plants?

Also i would do a few 2-3 50% water changes first before you will do 100% water changes. And do them with about 2-3 hrs apart. The reason why i recommending it because you don't want to shock him with drastic water chemistry difference.
Aquarium salt also will help with fin rot, just don't stop even if you think he is better. You need to do full course of it.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

when you do 100% water changes you need to acclimate betta slowly to the new water so you don't shock him with drastic water temperature difference
How to acclimate
1. can have betta in the changing cup with about 15% of the water and keep adding small amount of the new water about every 5 min for about 5-6 times -this way you he will get used to the temperature

2. Note the temperature of the water.

Using a plastic cup, scoop him, along with some of his water, into the cup.
Clean out the tank. Refill with water at the SAME temp. Be sure to add the correct amount of water conditioner.
Float his cup in the tank for about 15 min. (Study during this time. If he sits longer, it's OK.)
Add a SMALL amount of NEW water to the cup. (Several tablespoons, or about 1.5 ounces.)
Let his cup float for about 10 min. (Study during this time. If he sits longer, it's OK.)
If the cup starts to fill too much, remove a SMALL amount of water from the cup. Discard it.
Repeat steps 5-7, until about an hour has passed. (If he sits longer because you're studying, that's OK.)
Gently release him into the tank.

3. To do a water change, use a little cup like a plastic solo cup - this cup must be only for him and have never been used with soap or other chems. Scoop him up in this cup (keep him in the cup about 1/4 full of water - it doesn't need to be much because he won't be in it for long) and leave him in the cup while you change his water. To do the 50% use a turkey baster - dedicated only to him that has never seen soap or chems - and drag it through the gravel and try to suck as much of the poop out as possible, in addition to 50% of the water. Use a thermometer under the running tap to get it to be the same temp as the water that is normally in his tank. When the thermometer says the flowing tap is the right temp, fill back up his tank. At this point, add the conditioner (dose for how much water you change - if you change half the water you add half gallon worth of conditioner, If you do a 100% water change dose for the full gallon change). Float his plastic cup with him in it in the new water. Slowly add a couple tablespoons of the new water into his cup every 10 minutes for at least an hour. Finally, dump him in gently but try to get as little of the old cup water back into the tank as possible. When you do the weekly 100% you will do mostly the same thing except empty his tank fully and rinse everything in it very well under warm water but never use soaps or chemicals. Once it's fully cleaned/rinsed you can refill it and repeat the cup/acclimate phase.

4. When I change the water I put him in the cup I got him in then I take everything out of the tank, rinse everything with warm tap water. Then I put everything back in the tank, fill it with dechlorinated new water, and then turn the heater on. When the tank water is the same as the cup water , then take the dirty cup water out and a little at a time and put clean tank water in the cup. After that I put the cup in the tank and he swims out.
Last edited by ANHEL123; Yesterday at 09:58 AM.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

shellieca said:


> I agree with the ammonia & nitrites needing to be 0 but I've always heard from experienced fish keepers & read in my research that low nitrAtes were not harmful in any way. I'm curious why you believe otherwise.


I'll do more water changes, but becuase he is usually in a 2G tank with no plants or filter (took it out when I though it was ripping his fins) there is no cycling process going on.

Anhel - He is behaving absolutely normally and I have quarantined him for the fin rot treatment. Thank you for the velvet instructions, I will follow through that after the fin rot treatment is complete. Doing more water changes now, and no live plants in his tank so I will be able to clean everything thoroughly. Thank you!!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

The thing is if he indeed has velvet it fatal, fin rot not fatal. So you really need to take care first of the one that is more dangerous. And if you treat velvet with aq salt it will take care of the fin rot also. 
To make sure it really velvet just watch him and see if it getting worse. Usually raising temp and daily water changes can also help wit parasites. Temp speed up life cycle(parasites) and help them to die faster without killing fish.
So if you see that symptoms persist treat him for velvet right away.
And sorry i don't remember if i said it - if you have another fish make sure you do not cross-contaminate anything between them.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> The thing is if he indeed has velvet it fatal, fin rot not fatal. So you really need to take care first of the one that is more dangerous. And if you treat velvet with aq salt it will take care of the fin rot also.
> To make sure it really velvet just watch him and see if it getting worse. Usually raising temp and daily water changes can also help wit parasites. Temp speed up life cycle(parasites) and help them to die faster without killing fish.
> So if you see that symptoms persist treat him for velvet right away.
> And sorry i don't remember if i said it - if you have another fish make sure you do not cross-contaminate anything between them.


Okay, so to make sure, what's the salt dosage? I'm reading many different ones and am not sure. Thank you!!!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Check post #6 and post #10

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=183737

It really a lot of information there. The dosage of aq salt would be 3tsp / gall and you add it gradually. I think the link that i gave you look those post #6 and #10 will give you all instruction. 
Always make sure salt dissolved , shake it well make sure there is not salt crystals left. 
Salt is less stressful on fish than medcation so if he has mild fin rot and not getting worse people usually recommending salt first and then if it not helping or fish getting worse you go to meds.
About velvet the same. Some times you need meds and sometimes especially if you caught it right a way you might treat it successfully without meds. So that is why i would not treat him with medication for fin rot and use salt first.
And never stop salt treatiment even if you think fish is better. Especially with parasites because you can't see them with naked eye and they can hide in the gills area and reproduce. Fish might show improvement but then get worse with time.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Check post #6 and post #10
> 
> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=183737
> 
> ...


Alright, I just took him off the meds and put him in a 1.5tsp/gallon solution in a 1gal hospital tank today - and bumping it up to full 3tsp/gallon from tomorrow, 100% water change daily for the next 2 weeks. Thank you so much! :-D


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Make sure the temperature is up to about 84* it also very important part in the treatment. Temperature will speed up parasites cycle and help them to fall faster. Please keep us updated


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> Make sure the temperature is up to about 84* it also very important part in the treatment. Temperature will speed up parasites cycle and help them to fall faster. Please keep us updated


The temperature in my country is between 80F to 90F all year round, so that should be automatically taken care of! (Although one would wonder why parasites would develop in this temperature in the first place)


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

I put in the full dose - 3 tsp (1tbs) / gallon today and he started gasping for air / breathing really hard and lying down on its side. Did a 50% WC with fresh water and keeping the dosage at 1.5tsp/gallon.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

If the tank is not cycling, than 30% water changes twice per week in a 2 gallon are definately not enough. Clean water is very important for helping boost a fish's immune system.

Shine a flashlight on your fish and look for a gold-dust effect on his body. That is the tell-tale sign of velvet. Ick shows up as white dots like the fish has been sprinkled with salt.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

NorthernLights said:


> If the tank is not cycling, than 30% water changes twice per week in a 2 gallon are definately not enough. Clean water is very important for helping boost a fish's immune system.
> 
> Shine a flashlight on your fish and look for a gold-dust effect on his body. That is the tell-tale sign of velvet. Ick shows up as white dots like the fish has been sprinkled with salt.


Am changing his tank daily now with the salt treatment, and will do twice weekly when he is healed. I looked at him with a light and saw silver dust, not gold. Definitely not ick/ich/whitespot, but maybe early signs of velvet. According to Anhel this should go away with the salt treatment too.

Thank you for your reply!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

just don't stop the salt even if you see that he is better. Perhaps if after 4-5 days you think that he is worse and salt don't help let us know. I actually prefer to have medications on hands just in case salt will not help and you can use med's right away without looking for them. You always can return them if you don't need to use them.Unfortunately treatments are not always cut and dry or one size fits all.... But salt and temp over 84* and daily water changes+ all changing equipment including his changing cup rinse with hot water and dry everything out, i hope will help. This is the only way to treat velvet or ich with natural remedies which is less stressful on fish.
If you want to buy medications you can buy Kotfon'd Rid-ich or Ick-attack, Seachem Paraguard, Hikary HealthAid PraziPro, API General Cure . Medications with praziquantel, malachite green, methlyene blue , or acriflavine are helpful.

Also sorry i don't remember if i mentioned - keep his tank as dimmed as possible since part of their reproduction they use photosynthesis.

Make sure treat him for at least 3 days PAST the last day you could see any symptoms on him to make ensure you got them all hiding in the gill plate.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm not sure if it's the salt treatment or higher levels of stress in a medicated tank, but his fins have gotten worse in the past few days even though there was nothing in the hospital tank that could have ripped them. I think he has been nipping his own fins due to stress, though I think I will follow through with the 14-day treatment, return him to his bigger tank and see if it improves over time.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I would continue salt only because you want to be sure that he don't have velvet any more. On 5/30 you wrote that you noticed some very fine gold specs on him. Does he still has them if you shine the light on him?

Whenever fish has external parasites it can bother him so he might nipped his fins. Or may be he was doing it from beginning? Is there ''u '' shape bites? 
Is there dark or discolored edges that are ''smudged''? If there is no discoloration , this can indicate tail biting. Look for U-shaped chunks missing from the fins.
Also some bettas can be irritated with too warm temperature too.. So when you done the treatment i would very slowly lower the temp to 80* that he was before. 
When you done salt or a few days before just make sure he don't have any velvet symptoms that i described before to insure you don't need to continue with medications. Some times i saw many post people still continue with meds because fish has symptoms. 
How he behave otherwise ? Is he acting healthy and eating? No rubbing or darting?


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> I would continue salt only because you want to be sure that he don't have velvet any more. On 5/30 you wrote that you noticed some very fine gold specs on him. Does he still has them if you shine the light on him?
> 
> Whenever fish has external parasites it can bother him so he might nipped his fins. Or may be he was doing it from beginning? Is there ''u '' shape bites?
> Is there dark or discolored edges that are ''smudged''? If there is no discoloration , this can indicate tail biting. Look for U-shaped chunks missing from the fins.
> ...


I just shone a light on him and the specs are gone - will continue treatment for another week just to be sure.

I'm not sure if his fins are ripped or bitten, but he has been behaving very normally. I've some photos below of his fins.



















Thanks again!!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

He is gorgeous. I am wondering what other people thinking but i really think it tail biting. I would continue with salt just to insure that we completely got rid of parasites and after you done salt just may be continue to do 2-50% and 1-100% water changes a week. Give us update please.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> He is gorgeous. I am wondering what other people thinking but i really think it tail biting. I would continue with salt just to insure that we completely got rid of parasites and after you done salt just may be continue to do 2-50% and 1-100% water changes a week. Give us update please.


I will do that. I am planning to decorate his tank with more hideouts and silk plants as I read that bettas may bite their tails due to boredom or stress. I read that some people have ping pong balls floating in their betta's tanks for them to play with but this doesn't seem to interest my betta.

Thanks!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

well sometimes it can be really big problem and betta can do it on regular basis and there is nothing will help.
I do have one of my betta that i have for a little longer than 3 years and he is tail bitter but he don't do it on regular basis. The last time he did it was about 8 month ago. 

I am not sure why your betta doing it , because he has/had ext parasites and it bothers him or he is just tail bitter. 
You can try to rearrange his decor, add more hiding places,plastic bottle tops off soda bottles. Betta might bite because he's bored or because he is threatened by his tail and think it's another betta , or his tail is too heavy for him.
I do have a lot of stuff in my tail bitter tank. And it happened that i moved a little bit his tank , not sure if it the reason he is not biting any more. I take the heaters out from the tank in the summer, but keep the suction cup in the tank because sometimes he likes to circle around it . I actually have a few of those suction cups from the heater just to destruct him.


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## inveritas (Jan 24, 2013)

ANHEL123 said:


> well sometimes it can be really big problem and betta can do it on regular basis and there is nothing will help.
> I do have one of my betta that i have for a little longer than 3 years and he is tail bitter but he don't do it on regular basis. The last time he did it was about 8 month ago.
> 
> I am not sure why your betta doing it , because he has/had ext parasites and it bothers him or he is just tail bitter.
> ...



I've went out to buy some more porcelain decor that I've put in his tank. He stated making bubble nests again (which I hope means he is improving), but it's too early to tell if his tail is healing (I haven't caught him biting before)!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Be ready he might do it again though. Sometimes the fins will have spike that are slightly transparent(clear fin tips, almost like cellophane)-sign of regrowth. They are very thin and very fragile and often take months before the color fins in.
Sorry i don't want to disappoint you but bubble nest really just natural instinct and doesn't mean that he is improving or not. Well he probably happy though and don't have any pain


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## carlos puron (Jun 9, 2013)

Can any body help me here please 
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=202513


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