# For anyone cycling with Tetra Safe Start.



## wallywestisthebest333

For anyone looking to try a fish-in cycle with Tetra Co.'s SafeStart please follow this link to a very important Q&A!

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html

It basically has a guy from Tetra Co. telling you what needs to be done and answers some common questions about SafeStart. =]


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## LucyLoofa

wallywestisthebest333 said:


> For anyone looking to try a fish-in cycle with Tetra Co.'s SafeStart please follow this link to a very important Q&A!
> 
> http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html
> 
> It basically has a guy from Tetra Co. telling you what needs to be done and answers some common questions about SafeStart. =]


So I know you've read this link that you've sent but didn't you catch the *1.0-1.5* ammonia reading?
On my ammonia alert cling it says *0.5* is toxic. 
 I refuse to hurt patriot. I really need this confusion cleared before I try anything.


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## Oldfishlady

IMO/E-those products are a waste of time and money....
IMO/E-it is best to keep the ammonia level 0.25ppm and less during the cycling process with fish.

And no water change for two weeks with ammonia level 1-2ppm IMO you are asking for trouble and risk of long term injury from scar tissue from the ammonia burns especially on the gills and secondary infection.
Some fish may be able to tolerate those level, but the delicate fins of the Betta will burn and then they may start to tailbite secondary to pain.


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## LucyLoofa

Oldfishlady said:


> IMO/E-those products are a waste of time and money....
> IMO/E-it is best to keep the ammonia level 0.25ppm and less during the cycling process with fish.
> 
> And no water change for two weeks with ammonia level 1-2ppm IMO you are asking for trouble and risk of long term injury from scar tissue from the ammonia burns especially on the gills and secondary infection.
> Some fish may be able to tolerate those level, but the delicate fins of the Betta will burn and then they may start to tailbite secondary to pain.


thank you!  i didn't see this post when I PM'd you.
sorry about the in-box spam.
I guess it's back to the grocery store shrimp method.


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## wallywestisthebest333

Sorry. <=[ I had no idea as I haven't tried to cycle it yet. I was gonna wait till genie got better. Glad I didn't make that mistake.

Thank you OFL for correcting this. =]

I'll try doing a fishless cycle with it using the information about the product in the e-mail.

Afterall, fishless cycling is supposed to imitate fish-in cycling anyway so I could just add ammonia to simulate adding a fish just like you do in an unaided fishless cycle. Things should just speed up compared to a regular fishless cycle if I use the TSS with ammonia instead of a fish right?

Anyone know of a good brand of ammonia other than ACE's? Maybe something I could buy at a supermarket?
All i need is a small amount to keep the bacteria fed and ACE apparently sells in bulk. =/

Edit: eh. I'm just gonna go to ACE anyway. =/


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## wallywestisthebest333

wallywestisthebest333 said:


> Afterall, fishless cycling is supposed to imitate fish-in cycling anyway so I could just add ammonia to simulate adding a fish just like you do in an unaided fishless cycle. Things should just speed up compared to a regular fishless cycle if I use the TSS with ammonia instead of a fish right?
> 
> Edit: eh. I'm just gonna go to ACE anyway. =/


Found out using pure ammonia would possibly kill the bacteria. Guess I'll just add a chunk of salmon after I fill the tank with TSS.


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## Adastra

I have cycled successfully with ACE hardware brand ammonia plenty of times. You simply need to make sure that the ammonia level stays around 4ppm. If you accidentally overdose ammonia it is easy to fix. Simply do a water change to get the ammonia level down again.


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## Cody27

I know this Thread is OLD, but, I just finished a successful fish-in cycling using TSS (Tetra SafeStart)! We conditioned our Marineland Eclipse Hex 5 w/Prime, waited one day and then added a 3.38oz bottle of TSS and our new male betta (Stormy). AND, as the Tetra Rep said in their "answers", we didn't do any W/C's for two weeks. During that two-week period, we did water parameter tests and everything was fine. Day after that "two-week period", we done a 25% W/C w/Prime added. Our water parameters are really great and so is our betta, Stormy. 

Tetra (SafeStart) and API (QuickStart) make this stuff exactly for cycling a tank with fish inside. There was absolutely no reason for us to do the "fishless" cycling when these two products are sold for the purpose of fish-in cycling. However, I've read that the bacteria in QuickStart isn't nearly as good as in SafeStart..........just what I read. 

Do it right and a fish-in w/SafeStart will work perfectly.


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## jaysee

Yes the thread is old, but considering the negative sentiment expressed earlier it's a good thing that you posted your success. It works for LOTS of people and is a viable method of cycling.


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## givemethatfish

Wait. It says on that Q&A that "chloramines removers" kill TSS. How do you do a fish-in cycle in a tank without adding a dechlorinator for 7 days??


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## jaysee

givemethatfish said:


> Wait. It says on that Q&A that "chloramines removers" kill TSS. How do you do a fish-in cycle in a tank without adding a dechlorinator for 7 days??



According to the tetra representative in the link, you dose with dechlorinator at least 24 hours before adding TSS and then you don't change the water for 2 weeks. Should ammonia spike up really high, you can do a water change, dose with dechlorinator, wait a day and then dose again with TSS. Ammonia will be higher than with a straight fish in cycle because the TSS contains ammonia.


TSS is a fish in cycle, of sorts, but one would not follow the fish in cycle guidelines because it's not the same.

Too, your tank should not be stocked such that you can't go a week without a water change or the fish will die. The representative said 1 fish per 10 gallons. Unless you are grossly over feeding, 1 small fish (obviously not talking about a full grown goldfish) in 10 gallons of water can easily go a week or two without a water change.


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## DaytonBetta

I've had great luck with tetra safe start. I used it in a 29 gallon planted and a 10gallon with out plants. Both were lightly stocked to start.


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## givemethatfish

It's not a matter of the fish dying or not. I've always read and believed that any amount of ammonia the fish are left in can damage them, whether or not it's visible or lethal. I can't imagine not changing my aquarium water for 2 weeks.


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## jaysee

Then TSS is not for you 

Your tanks must not be cycled, otherwise 2 weeks is nothing.


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## givemethatfish

My tanks are cycled, actually. But we are talking about an uncycled tank here, aren't we? Someone wouldn't be using the product if the tank was already cycled.


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## jaysee

Oh I just assumed based on your concern about waiting 2 weeks for a water change. It's great to want to change your water every week - nothing wrong with that. However, feeling that you need to change the water every week or else bad things will happen - that's just not the way it works in a cycled tank. 

My point was that one small fish in a 10 gallon can easily survive a week or two in an uncycled tank without a water change.

The tetra rep said that if after a week ammonia is sky high to change the water and start over with a new bottle, as it's likely to have failed due to either improper storage or user error. 

Partial doses (using half the bottle) are not advised due to the complete uncertainty of how much bacteria is actually going in the tank.

If you want to use TSS, read the link in this thread and follow the directions.


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## givemethatfish

Perhaps I mis"spoke." What I meant was, I can't imagine not changing the water for 2 weeks during a fish-in cycle, not in an established tank. I haven't used a product like this, so if it works that's great. I was just questioning it because I don't have any experience with it.


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## jaysee

I agree that waiting 2 weeks between water changes during a traditional fish in cycle is generally not a good idea. I say generally because it's dependent on the bioload of the fish vs the volume of water. It would be no trouble at all to wait 2 weeks for a betta in a 29 gallon tank, but the fish would die in days in a 1 gallon. However, TSS is not a traditional fish in cycle. It's definitely a trade off - the convenience of the bacteria in a bottle exposes the fish to ammonia levels that you would not otherwise allow.


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## Stone

I have been using the different products to do this, they all have worked well, it depends on what you are doing I have been buying the "seeded" substrate lately and it is wonderful


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## jaysee

Givemethatfish - I didn't mean to jump on you about the 2 weeks business. It's just that it's something I see every day - people operating out of fear. There are a number of people that really do think their fish will get sick and die if they don't do their weekly water change. It's as if they think the tank is a house of cards waiting to come crashing down, and established cycled tanks are all but bulletproof. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from doing weekly water changes - I just don't want people to do them out of fear.


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## Stone

jaysee said:


> Givemethatfish - I didn't mean to jump on you about the 2 weeks business. It's just that it's something I see every day - people operating out of fear. There are a number of people that really do think their fish will get sick and die if they don't do their weekly water change. It's as if they think the tank is a house of cards waiting to come crashing down, and established cycled tanks are all but bulletproof. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from doing weekly water changes - I just don't want people to do them out of fear.


I agree with my planted tanks I do a weekly water change or bi-weekly, or monthly water change and it is really not about the water being "bad" for the fish, it's more about getting the dissolved organics from the plants out of the water, between having an established cycle and a ton of plants the water stays pretty darn clean, plus right now my big tank is losing about 3 gal a week in evap with no lid


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## givemethatfish

I wasn't trying to start a whole "thing" lol. I have just never heard of NOT doing a water change for 2 weeks during a fish-in cycle. It was an honest question.


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## Cody27

Must *TOTALLY* agree with this! Anyway, since Tetra is a major brand of fish related stuff, just like API is, I felt VERY comfortable using SafeStart with our betta in the tank to do a fish-in cycle and waiting the two weeks before doing a W/C. I think they know a whole lot more about "fish-keeping" than I do! That is their business/what they do!! 

But, if a person doesn't feel comfortable doing the fish-in cycling with TSS or API Quickstart AND/OR not doing a W/C for two weeks............don't do it that way! 



jaysee said:


> Then TSS is not for you
> 
> Your tanks must not be cycled, otherwise 2 weeks is nothing.


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## mart

Nope, use ATM products. Colony is what I cycle my tanks with.


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## Wiggyl

I'm doing a TSS cycle right now. It's been 3 days. Right now I only have some ghost shrimp and a couple of mystery snails in there. Anybody have experience with a fishless but still something in there cycle? And random question....do I have to remove stuff like snail poop before the two weeks?

Thanks!


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## Hallyx

Any livestock will provide ammonia to feed the bacteria. Don't clean it too well. 

I've read that Tetra Q&A and found it poorly-presented, often inaccurate and misleading. Nobody these days allows ammonia to build >0.50ppm with fish in the tank. More is unhealthful. Their suggestion that a keeper allow ammonia to rise up to 1.5ppm for 2-weeks is irresponsible in my opinion.

Tetra also claims Prime inhibits the cycle. This has been proven to my satisfaction to be in error. Seachem (makes of Prime) agrees that it does not interfere with TSS or other products.

The finicky advice to add TSS then hurry to the fishstore is another example of someone without the factual or experiential background to be offering advice. I don't care if he claims to represent the company, the Tetra rep is not well-versed in the use of his own product. It's not the only example of this. 

In the late '90s Dr Timothy Hovanec sold the rights to Bio-Spira, the first live bacteria product, to Tetra. They renamed it Safestart. He went on ti develop another, arguably superior product, Dr Tim's One-and-Only. I'm not convinced that Tetra knows all it should about its products.

I've corresponded with dozens of keepers who used TSS or some other bottled bacteria. As long as they get a fresh, never-frozen, never-overheated bottle. The product works fine.

Among my correspondents, TSS is most successfully used by adding it along with the livestock and 2-drops/gal Prime. Change half the water whenever ammonia rises to 0.50ppm. Dose with Prime @ 2-drops/gal of tank size and 1-drop/gal daily until cycled.

A few have gone 2-weeks without water changes using Prime as required to detoxify ammonia.. Usually TSS works much faster than that. Fish-in cycling without a test kit is borderline irresponsible.


.


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## Wiggyl

Thanks Hallyx.

I'm glad that what I'm doing at least isn't wrong. I don't personally have a test kit yet, but I can bring my water to the pet store to test regularly and I have Prime to detoxify if necessary. 

I guess what Prime does is bond with the ammonia to make ammonium nitrate? Which if I understand correctly would facilitate the nitrite making bacteria? As long as there is a constant source of ammonia from the livestock the bacteria will live right?


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## Hallyx

Prime binds or locks ammonia in a molecule Seachem calls Prime/ammonia complex (aminomethanesulfinate). This molecule begins to decay immediately, releasing the ammonia slowly enough for plants and bacteria to remove it. That's the theory, anyway. Seachem further assures customers that Prime/ammonia complex is used by nitrifying bacteria as a food source.


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## Wiggyl

Hallyx said:


> Prime binds or locks ammonia in a molecule Seachem calls Prime/ammonia complex (aminomethanesulfinate). This molecule begins to decay immediately, releasing the ammonia slowly enough for plants and bacteria to remove it. That's the theory, anyway. Seachem further assures customers that Prime/ammonia complex is used by nitrifying bacteria as a food source.


Hallyx, you are the best!


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## Cody27

Will continue to say that Tetra knows much more than I did/do about this subject and other "fish" related stuff. Nothing against any of the Aquarist on this forum b/c you have your own personal knowledge/experience. But, I'm sure at least some Tetra employees have one or more aquariums in their homes and HAVE to be knowledgeable to work for the company. I think it would be the same with anyone who works for a company that makes/distributes fish products.

As I, and another replier stated..........if you want to do the "fishless" cycling, that's entirely up to you, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing the cycling with Prime, TSS and fish AND waiting two weeks. It's sure better than when we tried to do the fish-in cycling with two minnows and got people really upset over that.


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## jaysee

Yes, it can be funny sometimes what people find upsetting and what they don't. We are particular creatures.


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## Hallyx

Peculiar, too.

People may place unsupported faith and trust in any entity ---corporate, governmental, religious, private, personal. But they do so at their own risk. 

Usually it is better to research facts and to interview people actually doing things. Assuming that a corporation or other entity is competent or is looking out for your interests rather than primarily focusing on profit is perhaps naive, and mught be considered as not looking out for one's own self-interest.


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## Cody27

Hallyx..........not everyone is always looking for profit, but if it's a business, they have to or not survive. Profit is what a business runs on! Do they have people's interest in mind? Sometimes yes, sometimes, no. At almost 65 yrs old and retired, I was in the manufacturing and business world for many, many years, so I'd say that I have plenty of experience in those areas as I don't in the fish/aquarium area.........but getting better.

I've read on fish forums where some people don't like this product or that or doing this or that while others think they are fine, if not great. When we tried the fish-in cycling with Rosy Red Minnows, we didn't know about TSS or QuickStart. Heck, like many other Beginner's, we didn't even know about "cycling an aquarium"! I was told by a Petsmart employee about using Rosy Red Minnows for cycling and read about using ammonia. Wife and I decided we wanted to see fish in our aquarium NOW and didn't want to mess with using ammonia. So, went with two Rosy Red's, but took them out to early which we were told to do by a Petsmart employee. From testing our water, he said "your tank is cycled" and it wasn't. So, we started all over, but the second time using Prime, TSS and had our betta in. Our tank is now cycled and everything is "hunky-dory"! 



Hallyx said:


> Peculiar, too.
> 
> People may place unsupported faith and trust in any entity ---corporate, governmental, religious, private, personal. But they do so at their own risk.
> 
> Usually it is better to research facts and to interview people actually doing things. Assuming that a corporation or other entity is competent or is looking out for your interests rather than primarily focusing on profit is perhaps naive, and mught be considered as not looking out for one's own self-interest.


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## Hallyx

Say, Cody, are you also a member of the forum under another name? Your CV and recent experience seems familiar to me.

As a retired engineer who has owned and operated his own businesses I can identify with your perception of the world of business and agencies. A company must look-out for it's customers to ensure their repeat business. That doesn't always make them good at what they do.

Tetra does a few things that really bother me which leads me to conclude they may do other questionable things if which I am unaware. Just a few things they do that bother me:

---Their small sponge filter is poorly designed and doesn't work
---Their main product water conditioner does not detoxify ammonia
---Their heaters have a poor reputation
---Their fish food products are inferior

They only have TSS as a good product because they bought the production rights from someone else. This is not a company I can easily, willingly trust.


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## jaysee

Their fish food does suck....

I agree with Hal - the best product they put out (TSS) they purchased from another company.

At least Top Fin makes aquariums, otherwise they'd be in a tie for worse products with tetra.


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## ClassicRocker

I sent you a PM about the "member" question.

Well, my career wasn't in Engineering. My career was in Warehousing, Purchasing and Inventory Management. I had to know certain things about products before buying them..........I was spending company money, and a lot of it sometimes. One thing I found out, some vendors/company's are better than others and so are their products! 

Anyway, we did buy Tetra Betta Pellets, but stopped using them when I learned about/looked at the website for Hikari and their Betta Bio-Gold pellets. Tetra pellets are big, compared to Hikari ones. Our betta, Stormy, has no problem sucking up the Hikari ones. The Tetra pellets is the only product that we've used from that company, so I can't judge anything else. I do know that both Petsmart and Petco use Tetra Water Testing Strips for testing of customers water. Before we got our own water testing stuff, we would take our water to them. 

I also understand that Top Fin products aren't top-of-the-line either. 



Hallyx said:


> Say, Cody, are you also a member of the forum under another name? Your CV and recent experience seems familiar to me.
> 
> As a retired engineer who has owned and operated his own businesses I can identify with your perception of the world of business and agencies. A company must look-out for it's customers to ensure their repeat business. That doesn't always make them good at what they do.
> 
> Tetra does a few things that really bother me which leads me to conclude they may do other questionable things if which I am unaware. Just a few things they do that bother me:
> 
> ---Their small sponge filter is poorly designed and doesn't work
> ---Their main product water conditioner does not detoxify ammonia
> ---Their heaters have a poor reputation
> ---Their fish food products are inferior
> 
> They only have TSS as a good product because they bought the production rights from someone else. This is not a company I can easily, willingly trust.


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## 1RainbowBetta

jaysee said:


> *Their fish food does suck....*
> 
> I agree with Hal - the best product they put out (TSS) they purchased from another company.
> 
> At least Top Fin makes aquariums, otherwise they'd be in a tie for worse products with tetra.


:lol: I used to feed my betta tetrabetta pellets. Then I followed the advice of others on this site and switched to Omega One betta buffet. I thought I'd just give him the tetrabetta occasionally for variety, but now he won't even eat them. He spits them back out!


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## jaysee

Variety is only good if all the food is top quality. To feed tetra food just for the sake of variety is not good. You would be better off not feeding the fish anything that day.

With today's high quality foods it is not necessary to feed a variety. NLS and omega one and the like are complete nutrition.


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