# Does Size Really Matter?



## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Everything is going great! My three are getting along remarkably well (Casanova, Opal and Bella) in their tank and thriving happily! 
Now, I have a dilemma!
Cass and Opal are showing clear displays of being ready to spawn. There's a nest, and they are showing all stages and signs. 
However, poor Cass :C Opal is twice his size! Several times he has attempted an embrace, and simply couldn't fit around her, so he ends up floating around for a bit curled up on himself!

Is this just because he is a newbie at this, and only young, or is it just that Opal is far too big?


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

You have 2 females and one male all in the same tank? All 3 will have to be removed to their own tanks if you end up with a spawn.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Size will be a key factor in him embracing her, if she is too big, he will be unable to embrace her and will just end up stunning himself.
All newbies struggle with embracing, if she is small enough for him to embrace, he will manage it eventually!!!Pictures would be good so we can see what sizes the fish are!We could help you better then!Also, 2 females and 1 male in the same tank is NOT a great idea, they will need their own seperate tanks (3 of them) if two of them spawn!


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Ideally the female should be smaller than the male so he can embrace around her. You don't want a larger female than the male for breeding


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

your female is just way to big
better to have a larger male
if you don't have a breeding tank then spit them up
will just have some dead female within a week or two


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Thanks guys! I've got the whole plan laid out, no problem there so thanks for the advice! Here's some pics from a couple days ago, yes, terrible lighting xD;


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Please seperate them. The mix you have doesn't work under any circumstances and should be avoided. 

Also. Do you have a 20 gallon grow out tank?
Microwoms, BBS, Walter worms, banana worms, vinegar eels?
A home for each Betta?
Do you know how undesirable VT's are?
Are you aware of jarring males?
How are you going to cull the fish?


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

I know you are a senior member, but can I ask why veiltail's are so shunned? And why doesn't the pairing work? 
I'm not intending to be a show quality breeder or anything of the sort. I love my bettas regardless of 'quality'. I'm not going to fork out £20 for a 180HM just because they are rated higher. I picked my fish through picking my favourite, and the one that seemed with the best attitude. Hence why, after 3 nights, 3 fish in a 9 litre tank are completely happy and thriving.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

The way they are housed is very unhealthy. 2 females and a male shouldn't be housed together in such a small tank for aggression reasons, 3 nights is a very short amount of time. Aggression usually happens in the first few days or as they settle in after 1.5 weeks. And VT's aren't recommended for breeding as there isn't a market for them. Finding quality homes will be very difficult. And with that male, the form. I wouldn't breed him anyways. 


Also. Do you have a 20 gallon grow out tank?
Microwoms, BBS, Walter worms, banana worms, vinegar eels?
A home for each Betta?
Do you know the different tail types and identification?
What tail type female do you have?
Are you aware of jarring males?
How are you going to cull the fish?


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

VT are not shunned - they are simply hard to sell. Most people these days want half-moons or crown-tails. Plakats and veiltails are my personal favourites. 

The pairing does not work because you should only have one male and one female when breeding. With breeding being the exception males and females should NEVER be kept together under ANY circumstances. No ifs and or buts. Females can be kept together safely in groups of at least 5 in a 10 gallon or above tank.

I'm very confused. Was this spawn planned, or is that how they have always been housed?


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Equipment aside for now, what's wrong with his form? Curiosity is going to kill me here as to why Cas is a bad fish :/


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Mo said:


> The way they are housed is very unhealthy. 2 females and a male shouldn't be housed together in such a small tank for aggression reasons, 3 nights is a very short amount of time. Aggression usually happens in the first few days or as they settle in after 1.5 weeks. And VT's aren't recommended for breeding as there isn't a market for them. Finding quality homes will be very difficult. And with that male, the form. I wouldn't breed him anyways.
> 
> 
> Also. Do you have a 20 gallon grow out tank?
> ...


 +1 

And the rankings usually mean nothing - your ranking is judged by your number of posts. Me and Mo are the same ranking (senior member), but I'm just a newbie (I got my first tank in December) and Mo is very knowledgeable.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Duskhorse said:


> Equipment aside for now, what's wrong with his form? Curiosity is going to kill me here as to why Cas is a bad fish :/


No fish is a bad fish.  

I'm not very knowledgeable on form - but his anal fin looks really long to me.


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

MaisyDawgThirteen:
My veiltail is very dear to me <3 I personally love these too! 
Also, they weren't always housed this way. I wanted to try my hand at breeding, and Cas and Opal were showing great signs to each other. I haven't really had my question answered; Is Opal too big for Cas? All i've had is that i'm doing it all wrong.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

The ray branching, and the dorsal fin seem to be his main problems.
Your question has been answered many times. Maybe not clearly though. We've stated that a female larger than the male is not fit for breeding with him. So depicting the situation could be self determined. Whether or not they would be good for breeding and if the female is to large. Of she's bigger than the male, then she is too big


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Duskhorse said:


> MaisyDawgThirteen:
> My veiltail is very dear to me <3 I personally love these too!
> Also, they weren't always housed this way. I wanted to try my hand at breeding, and Cas and Opal were showing great signs to each other. I haven't really had my question answered; Is Opal too big for Cas? All i've had is that i'm doing it all wrong.


I'd take the other female out. You should try and get a smaller female for him, or get a larger male for her. If I were you I'd get a good quality HM or HMPK pair from a good breeder. If you look for a good deal you shouldn't have to for out a good deal.


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Ah well that is easily explainable;
The store where I bought him from, he had been kept in an inch of water in an open top very, very small glass tank above some other tropical fish tanks. He was cramped, had NO room to swim. This was the day I brought him home; he hadn't stretched his fins fully. Now, it flares with everything else and curves nicely. 
Ray branching I assume you mean the end of his tail? Same explanation; he had taken to fin nipping and so the ends of his tail were split. He is doing that less and less now that he's happier.


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I'd take the other female out. You should try and get a smaller female for him, or get a larger male for her. If I were you I'd get a good quality HM or HMPK pair from a good breeder. If you look for a good deal you shouldn't have to for out a good deal.


Alright, i'll keep my eye out! Bear in mind, i'm in the UK, and betta fish breeding isn't huge over here


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Duskhorse said:


> Alright, i'll keep my eye out! Bear in mind, i'm in the UK, and betta fish breeding isn't huge over here


Since I used to be a regular member of a UK forum. I can point you in the direction of numerous Betta breeders


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Mo said:


> Since I used to be a regular member of a UK forum. I can point you in the direction of numerous Betta breeders


That sounds helpful ^_^


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Duskhorse said:


> Ah well that is easily explainable;
> The store where I bought him from, he had been kept in an inch of water in an open top very, very small glass tank above some other tropical fish tanks. He was cramped, had NO room to swim. This was the day I brought him home; he hadn't stretched his fins fully. Now, it flares with everything else and curves nicely.
> Ray branching I assume you mean the end of his tail? Same explanation; he had taken to fin nipping and so the ends of his tail were split. He is doing that less and less now that he's happier.


Do you see the little lines on his fins? Those are his rays - Mo is saying that they are un-even.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Duskhorse said:


> Ah well that is easily explainable;
> The store where I bought him from, he had been kept in an inch of water in an open top very, very small glass tank above some other tropical fish tanks. He was cramped, had NO room to swim. This was the day I brought him home; he hadn't stretched his fins fully. Now, it flares with everything else and curves nicely.
> Ray branching I assume you mean the end of his tail? Same explanation; he had taken to fin nipping and so the ends of his tail were split. He is doing that less and less now that he's happier.


The ends of his tail aren't nesecerally ray branching. The lines that split into multiple little lines are considered the branching. Honestly and sorry if I'm being a little blunt. If you don't know what ray branching is. Then you aren't ready to breed.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

A good example of ray branching. This isn't my picture. I can't credit the original resource as it ws from another forum. The promotion of other competing forums is against the rules


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Ah, okay ^_^ Thanks for letting me know. I guess I learn something new everyday. But, like I said; i'm not intending on being a show breeder. I don't have to know every term to be able to breed. My mum breeds (successfully) tropical fish (Angelfish mainly), but hadn't a clue what ray branching meant.
I came for advice; i got it. Even if Cas did take a bashing on the way there.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Trust me on this one. It is very hard to find a good formed veiltail for breeding because of there "mutt" status in the betta world and how they are over bred. I love them personally. But many people don't like them and don't dedicate a breeding program towards them. While they would do so for PK's or HM's. So please don't feel bad. A VT can be very beneficial in a line though. It'll add length to the fins. 

Your fish is beautiful!


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

It wasn't a bashing. It was me + Mo commenting on the form of your betta.

You keep on saying you don't intend on being a show breeder, but that is no excuse not to know about basic things like ray branching are . . .


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Maisy I agree. The basics are needed to be known. No matter what type of breeder you are. Breeding for a pet store. Breeding for quality, etc. you need to know the basics. Do you even know the diet of baby Betta fry, how to raise them, and when to seperate them?


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Keep in mind that we only want to help you - we are not here to say "YOUR FISH IS BAD!!!!!!!!!!! UGLY UGLY UGLY!!!!!!!!!!!". lol


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## Enkil (Jan 15, 2012)

As has been said, she is just too big for him. He wont be able to properly embrace her. Without a proper embrace, the eggs will not be fertilized.

Also, I must agree with some other things that have been said.
You should do some research. You should not have two females and a male housed together. They should each have their own space. If you have separate tanks for them and have only put them together for breeding, you should only have 1 male and 1 female in the tank.
Do you have the necessary foods for the fry? Proper space for growout?

Your male is lovely, but as has been said.. His ray branching isn't very good.


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Diet: 
Very small live foods. I.e. not blood worms

Seperate:
When the males begin to show signs of fighting/the females show signs of fighting

Raising: Is a long process, time consuming too. There are lots of steps that need to be followed etc etc

I understand, and I am grateful, honestly! I appreciate how frustrating it could be to deal with someone like me. I will do my research and make sure my betta are happy :3


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Now that I understand this is all intended to be helping me, could I redirect you guys to the image thread; http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=102548
To give a full critique on Cas, and, my other female, Bella


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

What are your goals. They both have ray branching issues, And Bella has an unbalanced caudal. I wouldn't breed them. If you are going to breed, I would invest in a pair. So you can easily find good homes for the fry.


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

I hadn't really any specific goals other than to try out a breeding, but, if you are suggesting that these two are not the best pair to breed, then I will take your word for it  I'm never very much 'in the money' but the next time I do, I will purchase a good pair of bettas. I will also invest in a larger tank and keep the one I have now as either breeding tank or grow out. 
Would you be able to direct me to some good UK breeders please? 
Also, i'd like to say thank you, and sorry. I'm probably causing more hassle that it's worth, and you are being very, very patient


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Here is a link to a Betta FB page with a few UK breeders. I believe Siobhan has a spawn going at the moment. I'm sure a few others do aswell. Just ask around. 
http://www.facebook.com/groups/227156373986234/


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Okay, well thank you again Mo  I'm sorry for any hassle :/


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Your welcome! Don't worry! I love helping people! I don't mind any sort of situation. You've been very understanding and I appreciate that. Many people don't accept new information.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Duskhorse said:


> Okay, well thank you again Mo  I'm sorry for any hassle :/


That's what we are here for.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Actually, veiltails can be bred but since they're not in high demand then you need to make sure you'll have homes for the babies. But that's the case no matter what you're breeding. And I agree. Cas is very pretty.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

dramaqueen said:


> Actually, veiltails can be bred but since they're not in high demand then you need to make sure you'll have homes for the babies. But that's the case no matter what you're breeding. And I agree. Cas is very pretty.


+1 VT are fine to breed, it's just hard to find homes for them.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Mo said:


> Ideally the female should be smaller than the male so he can embrace around her. You don't want a larger female than the male for breeding


I have two spawns with a larger female with no problem.

Jeff.


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Ah really Jeff?
That's restored my faith xD


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

You just don't want a massive female and a pint-sized male. lol


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## damo2904 (Nov 16, 2009)

I am a UK betta breeder. :-D


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

Oh really Damo?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Lots and lots of different ways to successfully keep, spawn and rear fry of this species and just as many opinions based on personal experience, facts and what a hobbyist has read as well as myths.....

It can cost as much as you want to spend or very little......You can breed for show or for the learning experience.....IMO as long as you are responsible and respectful of the fish....Go for it......

While VT are often viewed as the "Mutt"........this is usually by hobbyist that are IBC oriented and show since the IBC doesn't have a standard for VT's....What is forgotten however,.....the VT is the tail type that got the "Betta craze" started....I like to view the VT as the grandfather....had it not been for the VT we wouldn't have the tail types we have today.....an so, if any tail type is a mutt....it should be the other tail type since they started from the VT...even the PK is just a short tail VT.....All are man-made from years of selective breeding after all.....

A Betta is a Betta....it either meets standard or it doesn't based on the IBC standards.....One difference can be in known and unknown lines/genetics....None are perfect or meet standards 100% and this is a good thing....and what keep us breeding/spawning...etc....

By breeding/spawning known genetics you can continue that breeders lines that they have worked on for years, however, you can still get some surprises-some still don't breed true.

By breeding/spawning mystery genetics-you can get lots of surprises and maybe even create something unique, special, the most beautiful or the ugliest Betta that only a mother could love....lol.....

It takes longer to reach goals with unknown genetics- if you have specific goals in mind and if you want to show your Betta-it is really better to join the IBC, get a mentor and the best known genetic/related pair you can afford.....But, if you want to create your own unique line......start with mystery genetic, mix tail types and plan on a lot of hard culling and work.....

Even with known genetic you are going to need to cull-you still get deformed, poor quality and fry that don't meet standards...etc.....just like with unknown genetics and even in the wild that go through natural selection.

When you plan to breed you have to be able to cull and if you can't bring yourself to do this....then breeding may not be for you more than one time to experience it.

Rehoming your offspring is often the hardest part-only so many friends and family can take them, you can only keep so many....You have craigslist, Aquabid, local aquarium club members and forums, but you may have shipping involved...this can be costly.

You are not going to make money, if anything it will cost you much more than you make until you get quality fish along with the reputation.
But it can be so much fun and rewarding rearing your own Betta from spawn to adult.....

Most Ma & Pa type pet shops won't buy even the best quality Betta from local hobbyist breeders unless you are known by them. If they do buy your offspring it is usually for pennies or for store credit or free to be used for feeders, however, there are exceptions-each pet shops, location...etc...are different

The Box type pet shop has contract with fish farms and rarely if ever take local hobbyist offspring.

While you can end up with hundreds of fry in a single spawn, usually you will only end up with 20-40 more or less that you rear to adults and this is a good manageable number for a first experimental spawn, however, some can get lucky and have 100's to deal with...but its rare and why hard culling is needed/advised.....

Most important....Have fun but be responsible.....
Breeding tropical fish can be rewarding and hopefully once you have a successful spawn you will try other species and grow in this awesome hobby of Fish keeping.....


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## Duskhorse (May 21, 2012)

That, was an awesome post. I cannot thank you enough!
I'm to go ahead and at least try one spawn. If it's successful and the offspring are secured homes, I may try another. I will have to see how it goes!
Thank you, so much for your information, it's a fantastic help!


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