# Fins & Things



## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Farewell to A Tank*
Well, finally done with the tear down, and there are far fewer fins and things in the house. I swear there is nothing sadder than an empty tank. So many projects; so much potential...

To the last tank (no longer) standing, farewell you sweet, sassy son of a beast. I already miss all six sexy feet of you. You weighed a ton (or at least it felt like it), water changes were a Sisyphean task, and an algal bloom was the stuff of nightmares. Literal nightmares. If I ever see a clump of hair algae or green again...

We had a good fifteen years. May your next owner be kind.









___________________
*...and Things*
Of course, to drown my sorrows, where do I wander but to my LFS?
Hmm, I still have my nanos. And the 20g survive the great tank culling. I promised myself I'd be good. No more fish. 










Ehh, what can I say? At least it's not a fish! He followed me home (and a couple of his relatives, but more on that later). I've always wanted to try my hand at HC.

Hemianthus callitrichoides aka dwarf baby tears. High light, CO2, root tabs, and maybe even extra iron. At some point, almost everyone I know with a planted tank has gotten that evil gleam in their eye, a particular twitch in their fingers that maybe it isn't really that bad. How hard would it be to get HC to carpet? No stubby rooted, shrimpy leafed plant would beat them! Did I mention we're all a bunch of closet masochists?

Well, I guess today was my day. This is going to end in a glorious disaster but I plan to go down fighting!

Baby steps: let's see if I can keep it alive.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Tangentially relevant to Fins but mostly about Things...
*
The Salt Assault

It's a cyclical thing. Every freshwater fish forum will revisit "The Salt Question". The study of aquaculture is a relatively new field, so we fish keepers have been left with trial and error to figure out what works. Knowledge is passed through word of mouth and personal experience, leaving firmly entrenched opinions on both sides. 

The point here isn't to rehash those arguments, but to provide information for people to make their own choice. The important thing is to chose one and implement that change slowly. Just remember that rapid fluctuations of any sort are stressful, and each species as well as each individual fish will have different salt tolerances.

First, when NaCl is a treatment. There are defined situations when a specific amount of NaCl is beneficial, and these reasons are handily compiled here. 

Next, NaCl and fish physiology. The salinity of blood is remarkably consistent in vertebrates (~0.9% or 900ppm). About 77% of the "salt" in blood is from NaCl. Additionally, fish have several adaptations for living in freshwater, including 1) efficient salt retention through the kidneys and 2) specialized chloride cells in the gills that actively transport Cl- (and other ions) against the concentration gradient into the blood. So freshwater fish need a certain amount of NaCl, and they're designed to keep that salt inside their bodies.

So what happens when we increase the concentration of sodium chloride in the water? The link above reports that an additional 0.01% to 0.2% (or 10-200ppm of Na+ and Cl-) is "tolerated" by freshwater fish but recommends against any additional NaCl for sensitive species like cory cats and South American tetras. Otherwise, we're in murky waters. On the one hand, adding NaCl to the water may reduce osmotic stress by more closely mimicking blood plasma levels. On the other hand, increasing the NaCl in the water also increases the uptake of Na+/Cl-, leading to higher salinity of the blood plasma, which results in higher blood pressure (more osmotic stress). So that question remains unanswered. 

Since betta are hardy fish, adapted to both drought and flood conditions; I figure in a betta only tank the addition of NaCl is a personal choice. 

If there are live plants, snails or other tank mates, I'd be careful about how much (if any) NaCl is added. Snails and salt is a recipe for disaster. Plants? I've melted water wisteria and water sprite at 0.1% NaCl, while my anubias and java fern just laugh and carry on at 0.3%.

Finally, the role of "salt" in total dissolved solids (TDS). This partially overlaps the previous point, since NaCl contributes to TDS, but TDS also takes into account all other minerals, salts, metals, and cations/anions in the water. I live in Westerville, Ohio; from the tap, my water comes out high pH (7.8-8.0) and relatively hard (TDS 190+/-30). According to the 2012 water quality report for Westerville, there's an average of 33ppm Na+, 76ppm Cl-, 73ppm sulfate, and 41ppm Ca++ (they don't test for Mg++ or carbonate). Since it's the TDS of water than affects osmoregulation, at those levels, I don't feel the need to bump TDS up even higher.

Side note: Too high of a TDS is unhealthy for fish, which is why water from a softener system isn't recommended for aquariums. Low/No TDS is also unhealthy, which is why pure distilled or RO water shouldn't be used without additives (and possibly a chemistry degree).


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Slow day; waiting for westerns to run. Hypothetically, I could haul all this equipment into the cold room and jack up the voltage... sigh.

Well, chalk it up to midnight math, but my % to ppm conversions are actually off by 10 up above. That should be 9000ppm and 100-2000ppm. Darn decimal!

Also, from else where in the forums, seems like the Chao Phraya river basin runs about 0.0-0.2ppt salinity, which makes for 0.0 to 0.02% salinity. That's rather unexpectedly low. Rough estimation puts that at about 1/5 of a teaspoon of NaCl per gallon, I think? Even if you match the salinity, the ionic balance might be off since I have no clue what the major ions in the Chao Phraya river basin is. Probably Na+/Cl- as a guess. Unless the breeders are mainly located up against the coast line; in which case, it gets darn brackish.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Many of the betta farms Ive imported from are located in Samut Sakon province just west of Bangkok on or near the coast. Others are located within 100 miles mostly north of Bangkok which is why I used table area 4 as this is the greatest concentration of farms. Smaller tributaries and groundwater in the area tend to be even more saline than the Choa Phraya because it has higher constant flow of low saline fresh water. I don't think Ive assaulted anyone with bringing up the reasons most breeders provide some level of salinity in their betta operations.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hey logG! Interesting info on the salinity tolerance of betta; and ahhh, the location of farms was the missing piece of information. I was scratching my head a bit after looking at Table 3, since the majority of the river is at near Amazonian levels of salinity.

Huh, strange to think of B. splendens in near brackish conditions. Next thing we know, evolution of B. splendens oceanica! Going to have to consider this some more, interesting thoughts.

I've avoided breeding betta, mainly due to the space requirement, but between the angels and the mbuna, I've spanned the spectrum on salt (for freshwater at least!). I get the pros and cons of mimicking the conditions a fish was bred and raised in. There's just so many myths out on the internet that I need to see cold, hard facts, especially on something like salt, which is a subject that has been beaten more than a herd of dead horses in most places.

By the by, the title above wasn't meant to be a dig at you or anyone at all. More a half sarcastic, half humorous observation that this "salt debate" has occurred on every fish forum and tends to reoccur every few years. And I find humor in horrible puns.

Ta!
Z


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## DaytonBetta (Feb 4, 2014)

Hello there! Nice to see a fellow Buckeye.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hello DB! Nice to see another Ohio resident. Just for old times sake: *O - H! *
________

*A Little Fin for Thought

*Cellular Basis of Metallic Iridescence in the Siamese Fighting Fish, Betta splendens, Khoo et al., 2014.

An interesting paper. Molecular biology meets classical genetics one more time. Very nice EM work; having done the same technique for virus work, the clarity and contrast on those iridophore platelets is truly beautiful. 

Take home message: it's the angle of the reflecting platelets in iridophores that determines the metallic color. In royal blue betta, the platelets are almost parallel/horizontal to the surface while positioning at a more oblique angle results in both the turquoise/bronze and silver/gold colors. What separates turquoise/bronze from silver/gold is that the former has platelets organized in large thick stacks while the latter has two: the large stacks as well as a small thin ones.

Fig. 5d. Scale from an aquamarine betta showing the angle of iridophore platelets (RP) relative to the skin (BL) with the melanophores (M) underneath.


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## DaytonBetta (Feb 4, 2014)

i o!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*FINS!

*Holy cow, finally caught the marble during a spread; only problem? The lighting was craptastic. I swear this guy is the most laid back betta bum. He doesn't do the betta wiggle (how uncouth!); it's more a casual sashay...









Also, finally finished aquascaping the now deceased blue's tank. I started to rip it apart to decon it, but I just couldn't chuck the plants and shrimp. So I guess it's a shrimp tank now!

Pulled the water sprite since I don't need a nitrogen sink anymore. Bioload from the shrimp is nonexistent. The repens is nicely established and sending out side branches. The DHG is just about done melting and I can see new blades popping out of the substrate. Be awhile before it's recovered enough to start carpeting though. Dropped in a few baby marino balls and the driftwood. Just waiting for the java fern to attach to the driftwood and we'll be set!









The shrimp are certainly living it up! Couple of the females are getting ready to berry.


















Here's to you, blue! Up in that big fish bowl in the sky  (He was such a shrimpy little guy when I got him!)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*My name is ___ and I have an fins addiction.

*WARNING: Fin concentration in this household is below critical threshold levels. Seriously considering breaking two tanks out of storage for a little (HA!) betta breeding project...

Originally, the plan was to pack or sell all the fish stuff before the cold months in order to prep for the big move in the spring, but that's 4 months at the earliest (if everything works) or 6 months on the outside. And I've already sold off all my stock except for the 20g of odds and ends. So it wouldn't be much work to set up a 10g breeding tank for a pair of betta. 

And the 30g would work as a bare bottom grow out tank... I mean it's just sitting there. Empty. It's not like equipment is an issue.









Add in a trip to visit the family in NYC for Thanksgiving...

Dim sum and a pair of betta?


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

You should name the Betta breeding pair 'Dim' and 'Sum'. Wouldn't that be cute?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*dying of laughter* Best. Idea. Ever!

OK, now there's a whole new world of possibilities:
Pair of opaque plakats: Cheung Fun
Pair of reds: Char Sui
Pair of greens: Choy Sum

Ah ha ha, at some point, either now or after the move, THIS MUST BE DONE!
_______________________

And now for something completely different.

Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens. Clotfelter et al., 2007.

Older but still recent paper, but very interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about their analysis. But let's set up their argument first and we'll go through the data in a later post.

So, the premise:
Fact 1 - Carotenoids are used for both pigmentation and immune response.
Fact 2 - Vertebrates cannot synthesize carotenoids.

Hypothesis: There is a trade off between maintaining bright red/yellow/orange coloration and maintaining a healthy immunity. 

Past observations: 
1. Females prefer males that are larger and brighter in color.
---Assumption: larger males have more access to carotenoids.
2. Animals that store carotenoids become paler when sick.
---Assumption: Carotenoids usage is shifted from coloration to immunity.
---Assumption: Carotenoids can be stored for future use as color.
3. Not all carotenoids can be used in this way.

Since betta have been selectively bred to either express red or not, they propose to supplement the food with carotenoids and look for differences between red and blue betta.

Interesting so far, but there's two potential flaws already: First, a visually blue betta can still express red coloration. They address this by using spectral analysis to determine the color of their betta. (Alright, I can go along with this...)

Second, they assume the same genetic background. At the genomic level, in the broadest sense possible, yes this is true. But what if there are genes linked to the blue locus that could affect immunity? In other words, what ELSE have we selected for while breeding blue betta?

Well ta for now, back later to look at the data!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Home, sweet home!

Well, much deliciousness was had in NYC, but sadly the betta hunt in Flushing and Canal Street was a bust. (On the other hand, if I was still breeding fancy goldfish... seriously tempted by this gorgeous red/white ryuken ) I think betta breeding will have to wait until after the move. Plus, it'll give me time to plan my raid on the betta shop when I go to visit the other side of the family. And the fact that I know the fish shops within driving distance of my extended family is not a sign of addiction. Nope, not at all.

Stopped by Petsmart on the way back to pick up some bird and fish treats, and of course, I had to peek in on the betta selection. Bad me. No cookie.


























He was mislabeled as a regular female betta. $3.49? Don't mind if I do! YOINK! Metallic blue with a partial mask; acclimating well, test nibbled on a pellet and quickly chomped it up. OM NOM NOM!

Apparently, the flightless fruit flies got the marble's stamp of approval. Although the part where his food *MOVES* took a couple tries to get used to. All fins up!


















And one of the ghosties is berried. Not sure what happened to momma #2 though, tail count only tallied up 5 tails. Although the tank is pretty densely planted, so... 

But for now, I present synchronized shrimp!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Nice new find with the mislabeled boy! any name ideas? also don't worry too much about the ghost shrimp, they can be hard to find. If you feed during the day and have a food they all run to, try it for next count. I have otocinclus aka otos (tiny member of the catfish family) in a planted 55g.. I thought I'd lost 1 for a few weeks until this past cucumber feeding, all 5 were on the veggie munching away ^^ (I'd rather have 6+ in that tank.. but otos have nutritiously high mortality as a wild caught and often are starved by the time they're bought).


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks, AquaA!

Not sure yet on the metallic, I'm still getting a feel for his personality. He was pretty actively patrolling his new digs though, did a couple of exploratory circuits, taste tested all the plants (YUCK!), and flared at anything and everything (Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine.). 

Yup, I'll try for another shrimp count in the morning! And I hear you about the otos >.< I originally bought 6 for the planted 20g, assuming that I'd probably lose 2-3 due to stress...

I lost 5. Grr. You can actually see the lone surviving oto. He's photo bombing the shrimp in the last pic. I've been trying to find someplace that has oto's in stock but I'm trying not to buy newly shipped fish. Now that I'm sure he's going to live, I need to catch him and move him downstairs...


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## Schmoo (Oct 3, 2014)

Good find! I love when mislabeling works in our favor, haha.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Otos tend to die from stress of shipping, starvation from time between capture and your home (stores don't know how to feed them.. expect them to eat flakes pffft), and improper acclimation (as wild caught, slapping them in different pHs rapidly can mess them up). When you buy otos look for ones that are active with plump bellies, the the stomach is level or caved in to the body, don't buy it, its already dead (just not completely yet). Also when catching (at store or at home) otos always use a cup *not *a net, they have rough hides not scales, and the small rough hides get stuck in netting causing them stress and possible damage trying to wiggle free or be removed by human hands (also being out of water stresses them out so cupped in water is better). Following these few rules will help increase survival rate a bit. And long drip acclimation into tank is a good idea. Also they prefer temps BELOW 79f (72-78f), 78F is their high range,don't go to 80F or more, it will make them die off (not immediately but over weeks/months).. and otos don't eat algae wafers as these typically contain fish/shrimp/krill meal and otos are herbivores. Train them onto blanched veggies or find PURE veggie wafers for them the supplement their diet.
Sorry long blather about otos.. done a lot of research and kept them since April so like to pass on the knowledge to others trying to keep them to improve survival ^^


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Sorry long blather about otos.. done a lot of research and kept them since April so like to pass on the knowledge to others trying to keep them to improve survival ^^


:-D Excellent info, it's always a good sign when the details match up! Yeah, I got to Petco just as they got a new shipment in; they had already "acclimated" (read: floated and dumped) most of the fish in. I managed to snag 6 of the liveliest looking otos. They were a bit on the thin side, but very active. Got them home, heated to 70 degrees, and drip acclimated them for the rest of the afternoon (~5h) while raising the temp to 74-76deg. I have a cloth net that I use for the armored/spiny fish, so into the 10g they went, nice and smooth! Planted + aged driftwood, airstone for circulation, and heated to 76deg. Lost 3 overnight; but the other 3 were munching on blanched zucchini the following day. Figured I was good at that point but lost #4 and #5 over the next couple of days. Moved #6 into the 2.5g grow out tank so I could baby him a bit. Got him on blanched veggies and the spirulina pellets I used for my mbunas. Doing good so far, and I found him a buddy oto at another LFS. He's in quarantine for now and looking good! Will slowly build back up to 6 otos!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Awesome to hear, I wish you luck in your search. And gj quarantine new fish!! Never know it if might have a disease it can spread to the 'older' (longer kept) one, always smart to quarantine.


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## DaytonBetta (Feb 4, 2014)

I love the shrimp synchronized swimming!

I had similar issues with oto's. I have 2 currently and decided that is it.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Schmoo said:


> Good find! I love when mislabeling works in our favor, haha.


:lol: Truth! Although, after watching "him" for a few more days, I'm starting to think he is actually a she after all! All the fins had my betting on male, but this fishy is either egg-ing up or bloating up. Time for someone to start fasting... Guess I'll just have to wait and see!



DaytonBetta said:


> I love the shrimp synchronized swimming!
> 
> I had similar issues with oto's. I have 2 currently and decided that is it.


The shrimp tank is always a blast to watch; they're such characters! (Especially at feeding time.) I'm kind of tempted to try some cherry shrimp now...
__________________________

I have not forgotten about Red Fish, Blue Fish. I swear I'll poke the Results section on my next post. But until then, here's something red and blue of my own!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

OK, I fibbed. Not an update on Red Fish, Blue Fish. But rather...

Gold betta? Gold betta in a petstore??? :shock: :roll: :lol:

He is so tiny! His *CUP* was so tiny! 

[CENSORED] that; he's coming home with me. I can't quite get the right angle to catch his iridescence, but WOW! He shimmers between white gold and rose gold, like liquid metal. Not nearly as matte as the photo.










When backlit, he has a very pale coloration. No dark tones at all, although his beard is black. Full mask as far as I can tell, but there's some black/dark color peeking out from under the metallic. Interesting coloration, I've never seen anything like it. 










Acclimated really well, learned to follow the food stick and ate OO pellets immediately. Even took down two flightless fruit flies with extreme prejudice. *cue Jaws theme song* dun-DUN-dun-DUN-dundundundun!

Magellan does not approve.










Side note: Need to pick up some iron tabs. My red myrio is turning green >.<


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Zhylis said:


> Gold betta? Gold betta in a petstore???
> [CENSORED] that; he's coming home with me.


I'm so glad you got him Z. He's a beauty.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks Mike! I even walked away the first day; only to end up going back. Sigh. Sorry to here your plakat boy got away... Awesome news on your new tank though  Oh, how the tanks just multiply and get bigger. Because there's no such thing as a too large aquarium, just a possible need for more structural support.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Lovely new boy, lucky s.o.b. for getting such a pretty fish at a lfs! I see those being sold for $30-60 online sometimes x.x Any name ideas yet? And haha jealous Magellan. Are they sharing a divider tank or in the same room so he sees "the new guy" getting attention?

My 2 deltas are the only ones aware of "another betta" as they came home together and shared a divided 10g quarentine... Until Magnus decided to get through an impossibly small hole at the top of the divider against the hood 2" above the water =.= They have not shared a tank since. When Magnus moved into his tank next to Alastor's I made an out of tank visual divider/barrier with the help of my hubby.
Xerxes has been completely oblivious, I even tried showing him Magnus once but he didn't even look in the direction of the other fish, just at his tank (wanted back in). Now he shares my desk with Aristocoles and I swear neither have spotted eachother even though they technically can see eachother's tanks *shrugs*.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*grin* I think I'm just a little in lust over his potential genes. I really want to know what he's carrying. So tempted to breed him and find out. Curiosity and the cat and all that jazz... ^.^ 

Don't have a name yet for the gold yet; he's a feisty little guy for sure though! He's in the nano next to Magellan (who is practically twice his size), and the first thing he does? *POOF!* wigglewagglewiggle Full beard flare and challenging a peeved off Magellan. 

Also, the blue metallic? Definitely a girl with all the associated girl parts. Ended up letting her loose in the 20g to terrorize the rasboras. Hopefully she reabsorbs all those eggs. >.<
_________________________________

Alright, so at long last, a return to Red Fish, Blue Fish. (And I swear they chose these conditions in order to reference Dr. Seuss in their title.) Now, on to the data!

Results:
Section 1: Pigment basis of coloration. 
OK, setting some baselines here, since nothing can be assumed.
1. Fish with higher pigment concentrations correlated with increased brightness.
2. Brightness did not correlate with carotenoid levels.
3. Redder fish had more carotenoids in the skin tissue.

Section 2: Female preference for red coloration in males.
Hmmm, first experiment is a behavioral study: sandwich a female betta between a red male and a blue male and time how long she spends flirting with the boys. A total of 23 females were sampled. Red male was favored over Blue male (149sec vs 96sec). Ehhhh, weak rationale, may be Red was larger or more active or dominant over Blue. (Were the females red or blue?) Let's move on to the more interesting stuff...

Section 3: Carotenoid supplementation boosts red coloration.
Nothing too surprising here, feeding extra carotenoids enhanced red pigmentation. (Hey, there's a reason we pay top dollar for the good fish food: salmon, krill, spirulina. Are we feeding kids or fish here?)

Section 4: Carotenoid supplementation boosts immune response.
Here, they're challenging the betta immune system by injecting a bit of PHA (phytohaemagglutinin, a standard plant protein that stimulates cells involved in immune responses) into the base of the tail and measuring the amount of swelling that occurs. Similar to when we get a welt from a bee sting; it's our bodies' immune response to the foreign proteins. The bigger the welt, the stronger the immune response. 

We're looking at ~30 fish per group (control vs supplement) with the supplemented group showing twice as much swelling than the control. Not too surprising, but good support that extra carotenoids will boost betta immunity.

Section 5: Initial coloration affects trade-offs between immune response and coloration.
Well then; here's an unexpected curveball! Now, they take into account the color of the betta. (Again, groups of ~30 fish.) Bluer fish had a much stronger immune response when given extra carotenoids than redder fish.

They interpert the data to support the trade-off hypothesis, but for betta keepers, this raises some interesting questions.

1. The better betta foods (*grin*) supplement additional carotenoids. So assuming plentiful carotenoids, does this mean blue betta are less likely to get sick (i.e. they're better at fighting off an initial infection) since at the beginning of an infection, they can mount a stronger immune respone than red betta?

2. Alternatively, since red betta store carotenoids as red pigmentation, once a betta gets sick, are red betta more likely to recover from an infection than a blue betta? Assuming they can tap into the carotenoids stored as pigment. Are blue betta at a disadvantage since they don't have this backup store?

Hummmm, points to ponder.


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## starlight910 (Jul 25, 2014)

^lucky duck! I literally gasped when I saw that little gold betta.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

How about Midas, the mythical king who's touch turned anything to gold?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aaaaw, Midas had such an unfortunate end though! The gold is more the pillaging marauder type: Tamerlane! RAWR!

Here's some updated photos of him. When I first got him, his anal fin was was way too long for his caudal. Luckily, his tail seems to have gotten with the program, and his fins are starting to balance out a bit better. Although he's got a clear edge, so he looks kind of crowntail-ish. Still couple degrees short of a HM though. I'll try and get a flare shot at some point.










:ROOL:: He is so metallic. Yes, I'm easily distracted by shiny objects.










Also, I finally broke down and got him some girls. 

*Tamerlane: SAY WHAT? GIRLS?*










Here's the seller photos for the nameless ladies:

















Best case scenario, Tamerlane is a cull from a goldxgold or a platinumxcopper spawn and I get gold back in F1. He looks like he's carry some degree of opaque, especially visible around his head where the gold thins out. And if nothing else, he's definitely carrying metallic gold. 

Worst case scenario, he's a genetic fluke and is carrying gold or copper metallic over pastel. In which case, we'll roll with it and see what F1 looks like; otherwise, I'll bring in a platinum HM male and breed one of the girls. I should get gold back in either F1 or by backcrossing with one of the girls, depending on the male.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Bloody marbles! After holding a nice, stable tri-band for 4 years, I guess it was time for Magellan to spazz out and have a mid-life crisis. 

*Before:*









No longer the white-collar cubical drone, he's now sporting a more trendy tie-dye style. Next thing you know, he'll be shopping for a new set of wheels... err, fins?
*After:*









Who knows where the madness will end? At the end of this, I may have a royal blue betta on my hands. I do miss the white patches though. And his little milk mustache.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Test post... beep beep boop! We have a green light! Go for video.

A bit dark, but Tamarlane says "Hello world!"


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, I've been prepping Tamer for breeding, and so far, he's been very tolerant of all the water changes going on around him.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I have liquid rock for water. I can't breed angels to save my life unless I noodle around with the water parameters. It comes out of the tap high and hard, even after aging. Normally, for pet fish, I acclimatize them to my water conditions. But for breeding stock, I find that things go easier when matching a fish's native water conditions. (Note that I said native not natural. The former is the conditions in which the breeder maintains their stock. The latter is the water conditions that wild fish live in.) 

I have no clue which mass breeder Tamer came from, but the girls are from Ang Thong, about 75 miles north of Bangkok. Ground water primarily being the Chao Phraya and Noi Rivers. So I'm guesstimating pH neutral, low TDS, low GH, low/moderate KH. For a comparison of conditions on some of the bigger breed farms, see here: click me!.

Now this next point can't be stressed enough: when you're noodling with your water parameters, DO IT SLOWLY, AND BY SLOWLY I MEAN #(%$ing SLOW... OTHERWISE 50 DKP MINUS!

So it's been four days, which is a little faster than I wanted, but no signs of stress (fin clamping, jumping out of water, twitching/flashing, or color loss). I've gone from pH 8.2 (yes, my pH goes up in the winter) down to 6.8, a controlled drop of 0.3-0.4 each day. Decrease = good; bounce = bad. Don't bounce your pH.

That was done with a combination of 2 mopani/1 malaysian driftwood, 2 IAL, and peat-filtered water. Aah, peat-filtered water. The poor man's RO system. Besides making the water more acidic, the peat absorbs Mg+ and Ca+ resulting in softer water. Not as effective as an RO system, but you also get extra tannins and... natural,herbal... things... Soft water fish seem to do better in it; I can go with the flow. And the pigments darken the water, which helps settle the more nervous/insecure betta. (Afterwards, toss the peat in the garden or your flower pots, plants love the extra nutrients.)

Also, these newer Seachem monitors? AWESOME. So. Much. Awesome. I took mine off the hook and reversed it so I could attach it to the back wall of the tank instead of cluttering up the front. And in a display tank, I think I'd trim most of the plastic off and just leave a 1 inch x 1 inch square with the sensor and reference color. You are great Seachem, but not that great. 










Also increased the length of their "day" from 8h to 12h. (Oh, if only I could do that for real...Today is grey, yesterday was grey, tomorrow will be... grey.) And shifted to smaller but more frequent feedings. On the menu, we have live, flightless Drosophila hydei (the big brother of your standard kitchen pest), then either frozen bloodworm or frozen spirulina-enriched brine shrimp, and finally 1 pellet of Omega One.

I got the Drosophila from Petsmart. Check when they get a new shipment in and grab a vial with a lot of the blue goo (food) and at least 15-20 flies. It's about $7 and lasts me 2 months. I usually have more flies than I can feed the betta, so the extras are fed to the 20g. Technically, I could culture them myself but after working near a fly lab, I truly truly hate these little bastards. I'm fine with paying $7 every other month to avoid the hassle.









So, as things stand, the boys are energetically expanding their nests and Tamer is actively patrolling his territory. Magellan is just along for the ride. The differences in their attitude are mind boggling. 

*You keep pointing that thing at me. I do not think it does what you think it does.*









*Dear World, It is the 1475th day since my relocation. The food has inexplicably improved. I am experiencing... unusual urges. *


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, one mystery solved. Remember how I said the pH dropped a bit faster than expected? Yeah, it actually dropped about twice as fast as expected; I was figuring a week to reach pH 6.8. Soooooo, someone *COUGH* may have left the baggie of peat moss in the bucket after the girls came in earlier in January. Yeah, the boys got an extra potent dose of peat-filtered water. You'd think I would have noticed the suspiciously darker tint, but noooooo. Luckily, their tank was set up for a day-long 2 gallon drip. Faster pH change than I wanted, but the decrease was slow enough not to send them into shock. Thank goodness for liquid rock with a sky high buffering capability! Whew.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, Plan C fell into place rather unexpectedly and in good time. Bought four females from Atena's BLI yellow HM x yellow HMPK, spawned 16 June 2014. They'll hopefully ship out early next week when the weather clears up. From the spawn photos, they have absolutely gorgeous color and a clean(!) iridescence layer. I feel a little bit like I'm defacing the Mona Lisa by deliberately breeding iridescence back in. On the other hand, yellow iridescence layered on top of bright yellow should get me closer to the intense gold I'm looking for. I'll try to keep a clean yellow line in parallel. Maybe see if Senate has any males on AB.

The PK genes might cause some issues. The girls are DEEP bodied, but not hunchback! Actually, not necessarily a bad thing. I wouldn't mind a wider peduncle in the next generation, more support for hauling all that finnage around. At some point, I'll have to bring in some DTs to increase the dorsal base as well. Tamer has 11-12 rays in the dorsal with decent length on the first ray. The tail will a project in itself. Tamer actually has a good spread; he just has REALLY weak, short outer rays, especially on the top. I need to bring down the ray count, so I asked for girls with 2-4 rays in the tail. (Honestly, almost all the betta on AB are flipping rosetails.) For now though, I'm going to set aside form and fins in favor of color and try to lock in that yellow.

Let's see how that plays with Tamer's yellow. A spawn of red/gold, while pretty, is going to make me /headdesk. Repeatedly. And then there will be many, many F1 crosses. Many.

Sibling female (c) Atena: THAT YELLOW :shock:


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

yellow phenotype: red --> yellow
nr1a/nr1b?
cambodian - reduce melanin in integument, not choroid
blond/bright - reduce melanin in fins and intermediate scale
extended red - colored body, melano/xantho?
reduced iridescence

inbreed yellow = washed out color
outcross to cambo or red(nr1 geno)
suggest >2 loci, 1 dominant/1 recessive?
alternative, homozygosity = defect

yellow: 
GTP(+) ---------x-> H4B(-) <-x- sepiapterin
drosopterin(-) ---> unknown blue fluorescent pterin (iso/xanthopterin?)
astaxanthin(-) ---> ???

H4B --->tyrosine--->melanin
H4B ---> W/R/Y and NOS
sepiapterin vs drosopterin ?

Dm sepia; Bm lemon: accumulation of sepiapterin

Red: pterin-based (erythophores)
Yellow: carotenoid-based (xanthophores)

Yellow lab: astaxanthin, red pepper meal
Goldfish: astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, Gammus spp.

(Croucher et al, 2013)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Operant conditioning: Working As Intended*

(A little background: they're trained to swim into the cup for easy handling. First, associate the presence of the pointer with food. Then, follow the pointer to get food. Then, follow the pointer into the cup. Finally, stay in the cup to get food. This ends up having unintentionally hilarious consequences.)

So the idea was to observe how Tamer responded to the presence of a female betta (courting, aggression, territorial?). After introducing and then releasing my smallest girl, this happened:

*We're in the cup. Where's the treats?*









*Hellooooo? Treats now?








**
I think we broke her.









That was not the response I was expecting. **







*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

For the past few days, Magellan has been flirting with bloat. Slightly popeyed, slightly swollen in the abdomen, and a little less active but still out and about and eating. His abdomen is slightly more distended this morning, not sure if it might be due to the frozen bloodworms he ate last night, but I've started him on a round of API GC just in case. He's my old boy. Ever since he lost his butterfly bands last month, I've been watching him like a hawk. This may be his last huzzah...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*The Color Yellow*

Yellow betta are interesting from a genetic standpoint. Lucas first studied the phenotype, naming it "non-red" to prevent association of the phenotype with a single gene. Ideally, a non-red betta has a clean iridescent and black layer, a conversion to yellow pigment in the red layer, and the contribution of the basal yellow layer is minor. Looking specifically at the red layer, macroscopic observation reveals two yellow phenotypes: pale yellow and intense yellow. With the addition of orange, current nomeclature seems to have settled into naming the phenotypes NR1a, NR1b, and NR2, respectively.

At the cellular level, erythrophores and xanthophores are responsible for red and yellow coloration due to an accumulation of carotenoids and pterins. Higher organisms cannot synthesize carotenoids, although there is some evidence for carotenoid conversion. However, carotenoid-based yellow is probably not the major pigment in yellow betta, since it would fluctuate with dietary intake, which leaves pterins as the important factor when breeding for bright yellow betta. 

The pterin biosynthesis pathway is highly conserved and well studied in insects, amphibians, and fish. De novo synthesis begins with the modification of GTP, eventually resulting 6-PTP. Here, the pathway splits in three: one leading to the formation of drosopterin (red), one leading to sepiaterin (yellow) and then to xanthopterin (fluorescent), and finally one to the cofactor BH4.

Pale yellow betta (NR1a) make up the majority of available betta and acts as a recessive trait, reverting to red when heterozygous. To me, this suggests that the pale yellow coloration of NR1a is due to a loss-of-function mutation in PDA synthase, similar to the sepia mutation in Drosophila. This mutation is a relatively benign, simply _a loss of red pigmentation with normal (low) levels of yellow_ being synthesized.

Intense yellow betta (NR1b) are less common and fail to breed true. Inbreeding two intense yellow betta results in smaller spawn sizes, developmental defects, and dilution of the yellow color. To retain the intense coloration, anecdotal evidence suggests outcrossing to Cambodian, red, or "dark-bodied" betta. The simplest explanation would be that the NR1b yellow is due to a dominant negative allele of sepiapterin reductase, leading to _an abnormal accumulation in yellow pigmentation_. The rescue effect by outcrossing suggests that the mutation is _homozygous lethal_, similar to the lemon lethal phenotype in Bombyx. The lethality could be explained by the requirement for SPR in synthesizing BH4, an important cellular cofactor. Downstream pathways include phenylalanine > tyrosine, tryprophan > serotonin, tyrosine > dopamine. PKU does not seem to be a risk factor as there are no reports of high levels of phenylalanine with these mutations, even in humans. Interestingly, dietary supplementation was able to rescue lemon lethal homozygotes in Bombyx. Perhaps this is the key to line breeding bright yellow betta.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

The girls have been dropped off at the post office and hopefully arriving on my desk at noon or 4PM tomorrow depending on the whims of the USPS. *cough* I'd say something about lightning not striking the same place twice, but... here's me knocking on wood and clicking the refresh button like a madwoman.

Also, ooooh my. I'd forgotten how much virgin breeders make me crack up. I thought mbuna, being mouthbrooders, were the klutz kings when it came to the first go around. There's the gravel-scaping and the circle dancing and then the vibrating and finally the egg collecting. I thought that was bad. No, oh no. Betta take the prize hands down. That level of handsy (finsy?) fumbling almost requires a backseat and a high school letter jacket. Let's just say there were some serious coordination issues. Still snickering. Well, chalk that one up to a learning experience for Tamer. Towards the end, he looked like he was wrapping correctly before he turned aggressive and drove the female away. 

They're both in excellent shape; he's got two little U-shaped chomps in his tail, and she's got one split in her pelvic fin. I've separated them for now. It's the yellows that I'm really looking to breed, so I'll do a few water changes and wait for the yellow girls. Hopefully, they'll recover quickly and I can condition them for breeding soon.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Lunch time and betta update! _*THE GIRLS ARE HERE!*_

They actually arrived 10:30AM on the dot. Thank you USPS; delivery as promised! Got them unpacked and settled into a temporary tank until I can take them home tonight. Four bright yellows and a surprise BLI yellow girl! (Thanks, Atena ) I actually really like the BLI; she may be the first one I breed. On the other hand, the four yellow ladies are absolutely HUGE with eggs. I'll give them all a week and see how things look. 

Here's the BLI, the first to be unpacked. The other four girls are floating behind her. She is a fiesty thing! Very dominant. Absolutely lovely attitude.









Quick photo of her in the cup to show the yellow. I think I like the presence of black with the yellow. She's a slightly richer, deeper yellow than the other girls.









And a slightly blurry photo of the bright yellow girls for comparison. These girls are so stuffed with eggs; I'm surprised they didn't drop them during transport! Don't want to stress them out too much, so into their tank and under a blackout cover for now.


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## myexplodingcat (Apr 9, 2014)

Wow. XD

Tamer's beautiful! I can't wait to see his hopeful potential offspring.

EDIT: Those girls


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks MCE! They've regained their color overnight; I'm trying to get photos of all of them. Darn, they are zippy though! 

Here's the BLI; she has a sixth sense for when I'm about to snap a photo... evil creature! (And the instant she see's the camera, she clamps up. Sigh.)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Came home to find the BLI dropped most of her eggs. >.< 
Yup. 
Nuts.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh sweetie, I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. Good instincts though!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

OK, points for persistence. I guess I don't have to worry about her eating the eggs when it comes time to breed her. (She has since eaten the eggs, but mainly (I believe) because they weren't fertile.) There were about 100-150 eggs in her mini-nest.









Also, here's one of the long fin yellow girls. She was definitely the disruptive one when it came to forming the sorority! So her prissy tail got pulled out and she's settling into the 2.5 gallon upstairs, and she's flaring with the BLI in the adjacent tank. Her yellow is definitely there, but she's a little bumpy on the topline and the round tail puts her in last place on the backup breeding list. I love those ventrals though, dagger sharp and pretty full.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, this is the second day Magellan has refused to eat. There is absolutely _nothing _visibly wrong that I can see. He's actually in excellent body condition. He's just very low energy, spends most of his day napping on a piece of driftwood I propped up close to the surface. He is burping up air bubbles quite frequently, never seen him do that before. I've discontinued the API GC; I think just clean water and time from here on out for this fellow...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

...
...
...sigh.

Came home to find Magellan floating on his side with a swollen abdomen and beginning to pinecone. I'm not going to drag this out; the cure is equally as likely to kill him as the dropsy at his age. So here's to Magellan, off to that giant fish tank in the sky.

*Magellan with his pretty butterfly bands*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Whew, it's been a while since I last posted! Been busy prepping a couple of manuscripts for publication, and I'm about ready to turn on b!tch mode if people don't start hauling a$$! Sigh, such is academic research. It's also been weird not having Magellan around. I still look over at his tank, and there's a mental reboot when I don't see him fluttering about. Humans are such creatures of habit. 

On the positive side, all five yellow girls are out of quarantine, and both the BLI yellow and Tamer have been prepped for breeding. On the negative side, this is the second attempt, and while they've flirted and danced, Tamer has yet again failed to wrap her. Which then results in her completely RIPPING HIM APART. This girl gets ANGRY when she doesn't get her sexy times! I've spent the past few weeks writing from home, so I can keep an eye on these two. The first time (about 2 weeks ago), I was able to separate them with moderate damage to Tamer (note the regrowth on the anal fin). Today, I take a 20min break for lunch while they're under he nest, and I come back to Jack the Ripper... I think it's time to look for a nice, small Cambodian VT to pop Tamer's cherry. I'm afraid a third attempt may lead to him having performance issues in the future! 

*Ouch, that's going to leave a mark.*









*Of course, Miss Jack the Ripper is in prime condition and full of sass and eggs.*









I've also discovered an awesome new LFS. In the past, Byerly's was the go-to place for serious fish enthusiasts. Since Byerly's closed, we've been a bit SOL as far as LFS goes. I mean, sure, we have an Aquarium Adventures, but that's really commercial, the staff is on commission, and they're crazy inflated on prices. But happy days have returned! Now introducing Rivers to Reefs. They're a small store in Gahanna, a little past Easton, that specializes in wilds, rarities, and oddball fish, corals, and plants. In other words, show up on the day they post a new shipment or else you lose out! *grin* They also stock wild bettas, which is both awesome and awful. Awesome because WILD BETTA! Awful because OMG I CAN'T buy any more fish >.< (I need to finish these papers and move, if only so I can rebuild my fish room and start breeding again. Priorities, man, priorities.)

I did snag the last 4 cherry shrimp though. My excuse is that shrimp are easy to pack and move. Yup, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Gorgeous color and good size too!


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## KitDewStein (Jan 20, 2015)

The poor boy D: he is having a terrible time with the ladies (then again we be harsh lol) and wow those cherry shrimp are freaking cute o.o *steals one*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry about the mating woes.. annoying how the havoc waits till you're gone to kick in. Also sorry for your loss (Magellan), will you put someone else in his tank soon?
Looks like you got a mix grade of cherry shrimp, hopefully a east 1-2 are females, may get lucky and have them turn into a colony. I tossed mine in as food for my husband's dwarf puffer after a failed attempt at making colony (shrimp only tank). Puffer refused to eat them and apparently they needed the threat of death to get it on.. now I have no clue how many arr in that tank  Puffer doesn't even eat the tiny shrimplets, I kill more with water changes (try to catch them back out of the bucket but damn their tiny and hard to find) than die from natural causes/eaten in tank.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

KitDewStein said:


> The poor boy D: he is having a terrible time with the ladies (then again we be harsh lol) and wow those cherry shrimp are freaking cute o.o *steals one*


Lol, Kit... Leggo my shrimp-o!

NoOOooOOoo, AquaA; I think they're all female! GAAAACK! 
(Two of them have this pretty neat red opaque stripe down their back.)
This is a valid excuse to go back and get more right? =D


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry in advance for blasting you with info ^^

The coloration may be just different grades, males of a higher grade can have the color coverage of a lower grade female (or same grade female). [Cherry shrimp grade chart]

Females are larger and have noticeably longer tails than the males (easiest way to tell is line 'em up or get them close together in a small space to compare size). A mature female will have longer exoskeleton (goes down lower) on tail, while males tail exoskeleton is a bit thinner. Again easier to tell if they are all in close proximity of each other. The last photo is a female, I can't 100%tell gender from the other photos though, 2nd to last photo might be male but that leaf is in the way.

Also the females are easy to ID when they're almost ready to mate. Before a molt they will get "saddled" which means their back will get a slightly (or sometimes drastically) lighter/discolored marking (sometimes it turns partially white or even a light orange) and is shaped similarly to a saddle. Photo of a saddle [exp1] [exp 2] Only females get this so if you see it, its a girl. OF the photos you put up I don't see a saddle except possibly the out of focus shrimp in the back of the first photo. When they are saddled after the next molt they are ready to breed and the males will go after them like no ones business (its usually over pretty quick but if you manage to see them chase the girls around its interesting-check youtube). 

They will end up "berried" after mating and stay berried for a month (berried is a term for them carrying their eggs under their tail-eggs have a yellow-ish hue and look like tiny berries. Photo of berried female [exp1]. 

After the month tiny versions of the shrimp are born and swim around (called shrimplets). They are easily sucked up when siphoning for a water change so be very careful- I'd recommend using a light colored bucket to put removed tank water in and use a very fine mesh fish net ad flash light to find and pull out babies. 

The shrimlets would easily fit through your divider btw so if you keep any fish that eat brine shrimp-they'll eat the shrimplets if they come their way.. or try too. A very densely planted tank (especially one with moss) will help give the shrimplets a place to hide from predators and forage for microfauna.
To give you an idea of the size of shrimplets look at the photo linked below, those are adult females and 2-4 week old shrimplets, they are 1/2-1/4 that size when born. (they are in dwarf baby tears (if you know that plant) as a size reference)
Shrimp size comparison [exp1]

It does not hurt to keep them in larger groups as long as the tank is large enough and matured as they eat microfauna (moss is a great easy plant to grow micro fauna for them on naturally), so you can get more, or you can try to wait and get free ones from breeding. I'm not sure what you filter is, but if its not an air pump run sponge filter, you need to put foam/sponge over the intake of what ever HOB/pump/sump/canister you use to filtrate the tank so shrimp (adult and possible babies) don't get sucked into the filter and chopped up by the impeller/blade or stuck in the filtration media. 

Its also a nice idea to give shrimp some supplements once in a while, there are plenty of shrimp foods on the market (some fish will eat the shrimp food) they also eat bits of fish food that gets uneaten, they also like blanched veggies (zucchini, cucumber, spinach, and lettuce are most common but I've heard people use carrots and other stuff too). But with as few as you have (right now), if you do feed them, make it very very tiny bits of food.

I've found they will breed just fine when you have only 4-5 as long as there is at least 1 male or at least 1 female in the group. I can attest to this as I dumped in 5 as food for my husband's dwarf puffer (who refused to eat them) after they did not breed in their shrimp only tanks and just died back.. well they started breeding and I have a big colony in my husband's puffer tank now  Up to 4th generation of babies now! Apparently they didn't get horny until the threat of death was there. 

Now this is a very rare thing.. the dwarf puffer not eating any shrimp or shrimplets (they'll coast right by his face)... but most fish will eat them (otocinlus being an exception), anything that can eat a brine shrimp can go after a cherry shrimp juvies or shrimplets, if it can open its mouth large enough it may get the adults too. Keeping them with bettas is rolling the dice of chance, some will have strong predator instincts/territorial issues and kill/eat them all.. others may tolerate larger ones but eat babies, some don't care at all. 

I have a batch of 6 with Alastor (white and red delta male) they bred but I only found 4 babies (they can have many many shimrplets per a batch) so I assume he ate the little ones, but he doesn't bother the adults, unless they do that rapid swim/escape mode, then he sees the sudden movement and follows it, but doesn't bite, just wants to see wtf that red blurr that darted by was ^^.

Ok I'll stop rambling now ^^''
All photos from Google as I was too lazy to dig up my out of focus shots ^^''


edit: ok one more tip! when doing a water change on a tank with shrimp its best to do only 10-30% water change, no more. And when putting new water back in it MUST be same temp and pH as tank water. Also its a good idea to get an air line tube and use it to feed water back in. Put a bucket of dechlorianted new water raised above tank level and put the air line tube in, start a siphon by sucking on the other end and put that into the tank, monitor it so it does not over flow! I've found adding the new water this way brings it into the tank slower so the TDS (total dissolved solids) change from old to new water does not stress the shrimp and cause rapid molts (if they molt too soon after a previous molt it can kill them). I think my first attemtp at shrimp had a high death rate because I just cup poured water back into the tank rapidly, but using the airline tubing now I have colony growth not death ^^


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ha ha! Thanks for the info, AA; cherries are a new critter for me. The coloration bit is interesting! I've kept ghosties, so I'm familiar with the saddling and berrying, but since I don't have enough infusoria in the tank, none of the ghostie larva ever survive to shrimp-hood. Thank goodness NCS hatch as shrimplets! I was eyeballing gender by the shape of their "undercarriage", supposedly female NCS have a curve while males are level. I'm 99% percent sure three of them are female. There's one smaller one that I'm not sure if s/he is a young female or a mature male. Guess I'll find out! 

They're in one section of a densely planted 10 gallon three-way split. Tamer is in with them now; he's been pretty laid back. (I think he's still checking to make sure all his bits are attached and in working order! He is so shredded...) But I'll keep an eye on all of them. Dripping a water change is no problem. I do that already for the planted betta tanks. Basically, I like to just set it and forget it; pouring in new water tends to uproot some of the less established plants in a small tank, so I like dripping. 
_______________________

Tamer is comparatively smaller than most betta. I'm not sure if it's genetics or if he was jarred too young. But in any case, he's not up to wrapping a standard sized female. So we're now looking at long term breeding plans: two goals in parallel that require heavy culling. Goal A, establish a Cambodian x gold line and build up to a standard body size while maintaining nms +/+. Size/color > fins. Goal B, establish a clean red/NR1B HM line. Form/fins > color. Eventually the plan will be to outcross a homozygous gold to a heterozygous red carrying NR1B then line breed to fix gold into the heterozygous red line and improve finnage from there. Have I mentioned how much I love the fact that betta mature at ~4-6 months? Goldfish aren't really fertile until >1.25 years. Patience, grasshopper, is a virtue.

Soooooo, with that plan in mind. I'm thinking this is the first cross: BLI Red x BLI NR1B


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

The thing with breeding is you're deliberately trying to refine certain traits, which means that as you inbreed/line breed for the traits you want, your line also develops certain signature characteristics: dorsal shape, body conformation, coloration, ray count. You can see this in the heavily bred species like goldfish, guppies and yup, you guessed it, betta as well.

So it's a little perturbing to browse through the new Petco stock and then start recognizing certain fish. As in these fish are culls from spawns that you've seen on Aquabid. Now I'm curious who supplies Petco betta; they're definitely buying from a Thai consolidator! I'm pretty sure Petsmart, Jack's Pets, Pet Supplies Plus, and maybe Meijer are all supplied by the same company. Rivers to Reefs and Petco betta are a slight but noticeable step up, possibly supplied through Segrest Farms? They're still pretty early culls, the "easy decisions" so to speak: bad caudal spread, rounded HM corners, and/or too much iridescence. 

Like the red male HM I recently scooped up. I'm 90% certain he's from Paitune's most recent Super Red spawn. Too much iridescence and excessively curved outer rays on the upper caudal were probably the reasons he got culled. But the long, thick body shape and medium size are the same. As is the unbelievably dense, red pigmentation with patches of BLI on the body. Dorsal, caudal, and anal shape are a dead match, including the curved anal with slightly recessed webbing and the exact 180 caudal spread with sharp corners and high ray count. If he is a Paitune Super Red, I'll consider him a bargain at $16, even with his flaws. Those I can breed out. Not having to import an inbred Super Red? Priceless, from a genetic standpoint. (Side note: at 3 months old, he's already twice the size of Tamer... /cry)










*For a few minutes, I was afraid he pulled a jumper. No, he was hiding under the IAL. Grumble.
*








*
The Introduction: Red vs Yellow
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, pretty quiet this morning. I left MissJ cupped in red's tank last night, and she again dropped a small batch of eggs and bubblenested them. Red built a small nest last night as well. They were flirting this morning, so I released her into the tank. Not too much going on yet, he's tending nest and she's wiggling her butt like "You OAF! You IDJIT! Wrap me; wrap me like a Chipotle burrito!!!" Hopefully he doesn't meet the same fate as Tamer...


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## JHatchett (Aug 24, 2014)

So funny! Them bettas. :B


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

You girl seems to think she can breed a-sexually or is having a gender identity crisis ("I'll bubble nest my own eggs!"). Hope she likes this boy better.


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## DaytonBetta (Feb 4, 2014)

Great info about the shrimp AquaAurora. I'm thinking about getting some this spring.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, all quiet on the fishy front. MissJ has been in with the red for 48h now. She's got a few minor rips and nips, but she hasn't touched him. (Her reaction seems to be "Oh [CENSORED] he's big. Back... away... slowly...") Of course, now that I actually want her to drop some eggs, she's locked up tighter that a nunnery. Going to give it a few more days, depending on the red. Then I figure I'll separate and try again...

I did get a better chance to photo the red though. Didn't get a good shot of his dorsal, but that thing is like a flipping parasail.

*Oh. So. Red.*









Tamer is stuffing his face currently, looks like he's going to bounce back pretty fast from all that damage. Plenty of protein and vita is doing the trick to regrow all those fins, but I think his metallic is not quite as extended as it used to be...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Apparently I spoke too soon and didn't knock on wood and just *had* to tempt Murphy. *THUNK!* is never a sound you want to hear coming from your fish tank. Ever. Found poor red cowering in the top left corner. 

*Three guesses who did that. You could say she has certain M.O.
*









I think I'm going to rename her Hannibella. Rather than risk leaving them together overnight, I opted to pull her out ASAP. I've already seen how this story ends...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

OK, Rivers to Reefs is officially evil. Oh so delightfully evil. They just posted a list of new arrivals. Here's a partial list of what came in... *whimper* Must resist... but I waaaaaaaaaaant them. Damn being a responsible adult!



> This time tomorrow we should have more than 125 new species/varieties available! Today's new arrivals include:
> *Betta rutilans, Betta coccina, Betta dennisyongi
> Ornate Bushfish/Microctenopoma ansorgii
> Green Laser Corys
> ...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Betta updates! First up is my poor tattered Tamerlane. He got shredded by the feisty MissJ during the second attempt to breed them. 

*Before: Oh so pretty!
*









*After: It's just a flesh wound! *He's got a good start on the regrowth. I'm just keeping him in clean water with lots of protein and vits. He's still a little ball of wrath, so I figure he'll bounce back fast. He's even started another nest, silly boy.









Next up is Ezra AKA "Big Red". (Bonus points for the reference!) Figuring MissJ became aggressive due to Tamer being too small to wrap her, I put the word out that I was looking for a nice, big red boy. Enter Ezra, stage right. For the first couple of days, it looked promising: egg-y female + nesting male = sexy times ahead. And then, MissJ got tired of waiting; bubblenested her own [email protected] eggs; and tried to neuter Ezra.

Aaaaw righty then. Round 2: Ezra vs MissJ. This time we're going with the micromanagement route. If sexy times hasn't occurred within 30min of the morning release, they're getting separated and re-release in the afternoon. Right now, Ezra is frantically building a nest. All I can hear is the *tak-tak-tak* of him blowing bubbles.









On a different note, temporarily re-purposing some of these 10 gallon tanks as greenhouses! Started some seeds for the garden this week. Cupcake squash, zukes, cukes, and watermelon have all made an appearance and are keeping a baby orchid company. Coriander, sweet peppers, and jalapenos are just peeking up out of the soil. And the bok choi and choy sum can wait a few more weeks before I start them. 

*I will MAKE it spring.*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

WOOT WOOT! 
Eggs in the nest!
...but MissJ is now hiding under the IAL pile under the nest. How to retrieve her? Hummmm...​


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Zhylis said:


> WOOT WOOT!
> Eggs in the nest!
> ...but MissJ is now hiding under the IAL pile under the nest. How to retrieve her? Hummmm...​


Your girls seem to like to play the boy's role.. bubble nest building, nest guarding... wtf?
I wish you luck with extraction and egg/fry survival rate!

edit: WOOT just noticed the monty python reference (love the movie that's from)!

2nd edit (don't want to spam post): Have you considered aquaponics with your veggies? its a great way to grow them in the cold months (indoors) as long as you have a proper light for them. Aquaponics is basically gardening but no soil-roots are in tank water (or a tube-pvc pipe) that tank water runs through after the filter before going back to the tank.. but leafy greens are often grown on rafts so that can be just right ontop of the tank) they absorb nutrients and nitrates from the water to grow and make the water cleaner for the fish. Unlike hydroponic veggies which many say have lacking/no flavor, hydroponic grown ones are very flavorful (all that yummy mum-nitrates). 
I had a temp aquaponic system when I had a poop monster pleco because he ate all underwater plants and made lots of nitrates. Grew some very tender flavor lettuce. Took the setup down after I donated the pleco to a educational group that could give him a bigger tank and filter. If I didn't have a riparium on my 55g I'd setup the aquaponics again, want to try tomatoes for some home grown organic tomato sauce! I actually got into auqponics originally after reading that a few people grew tomato plants in their HOB filters.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

What can I say? MissJ is an _independent woman_!  I did immediately remove ~75% of the eggs, the Congo tetras in the basement polished them off quickly. I'm looking for a small spawn right off the bat. There's ~300 eggs left. We'll see how many survive fry-hood...

*hehehe* There's little obscure references and bad puns all over this journal. Word play amuses me. I'm easily amused.

No prob with the comments, always welcome! I _have_ been toying with the idea of aquaponics on and off, but between the money and the setup, it never really got off the ground. Although it would have been AWESOME with the goldfish, those little poop monsters. The fish room was crazy humid from all the tanks; it was already ideal growing conditions so I'd just start the seeds on any available flat surface in there. Even now, I use the fish water from the water changes to water the plants; they love it and grow like crazy! ...maybe after I move, and set up the new fish room, I'll space the shelves to allow for aquaponics... Now you're giving me ideas!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Most people who use aquaponics with pet fish (instead of commercial fish for consumption.. and even a few crayfish places) typically set up on goldfish or African cichlids tanks. All good nitrate monsters that's aren't always plant friendly. There are a bunch of ways to do it; canister filter or sump filtration to feed water to a grow bed or into pvc pipe cut for planters that dumps water back into the tank via gravity, or just rafts right on the tank water (if no one is a root muncher) work well for aqurist setups.
If you ever have questions about aquponics I'll share what I recall.. I also recommend spending several hours looking at youtube videos on it, tons of info there! Though no one will say prime is "safe" for dechlornating tap, we saw no negative effects on the plants or us from having them. At least for the few months we harvested from the setup.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Correction: There *WERE* eggs. Apparently I need to remove MissJ immediately after spawning as I just watched her EAT the last of the remaining eggs... and then go back to hiding under the IALs.

...
...
...

Sigh. Third time's a charm? I hope. Really.

*MissJ's Caviar Bar: Before the carnage occurred.*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Yay, muchas gracias a Aqua Aurora! My golf ball o' Fissendens goodness arrived today. Teased the fronds apart and they're currently floating in a betta cup to recuperate from their little trip. Darn cute little fronds!

*Feed me! Feed me, Seymour!*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Zhylis said:


> Yay, muchas gracias a Aqua Aurora! My golf ball o' Fissendens goodness arrived today. Teased the fronds apart and they're currently floating in a betta cup to recuperate from their little trip. Darn cute little fronds!
> 
> *Feed me! Feed me, Seymour!*


Glad they made it in good shape ^^ hope they grow good for you! Be mindful about lighting, don't let it be to bright/on too long and get hair algae, it's a real pain to get rid of from fissendens (have not had in fissendensfissendens yet but read others horror stories snd have had it on other plants in different tanks x.x). Use of excel or co2, and floaters to defuse light helps. I use Excel each day and small doses of other liquid frets every other day (i use Seachem floirish line but it's not the only fert option...Root tabs won't really work though).


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Knocks on wood* Alrighty, round 3 looks like a good attempt so far... 
I put MissJ in with Ezra yesterday in the late afternoon, and they're both stuffed to the gills with assorted frozen foods to reduce the urge to snack on eggs. He basically spent the last 24h chasing her around the tank and sporadically tending nest. They're both a bit torn up on the anal fins, but they've been wrapping for a little over an hour at this point. About 25-30 eggs per wrap for the last ~45min, and they are BOTH shuttling eggs into an absolutely huge bubble nest. I'm (under)estimating the count at about 800 eggs right now, which is a slightly intimidating number since they're still going at it like rabbits. Little, fluffy, pink Energizer rabbits... *GULP!*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*La petite mort*








*
Déjà vu*...* yes, they're still going. 5PM.*









EDIT: Alright, Ezra finally chased MissJ out from under the nest. She's been removed and put back in her tank to recover. Whew! Eggs, many eggs! Handle it! There's a huge white cluster that's visible and plenty in the bubbles and more in the duckweed....


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, slightly over 24h post-spawning. There are still eggs in the nest and Ezra is tending them like a champ. (I did sneak in with a turkey baster last night and stole about 2/3 of the nest.) There was an absolutely crazy number of eggs in there, easily over 2,000. I think I left about 300 eggs behind, but it was a little hard to estimate since they were piled up in mounds of bubbles. No photos since I don't want to stress Ezra more than I already have.

On the other hand, here's the slightly chewed-on MissJ. I've never seen her so thin. No more fish tits on this girl! She's definitely exhausted, pretty much eating, napping, and swimming kind of slow. She took a bit of damage but nothing too worrying. 









Here's my Tamer boy, patrolling the grounds! Regrowth on the fins is going well; he was looking like a plakat for a couple of weeks. I think he prefers less finnage. He's certainly zipping around like a kid on a sugar rush. Also, holy cow, water sprite. It's getting crazy back there! Going to have to thin it out soon... The java ferns are pretty much rooted to the driftwood at this point; I think I'll cut the threads on the next water change.









And next door, we have the nameless metallic blue/red female. I may move her downstairs into the sorority of yellow girls. Juggling some of the girls around at the moment. I'm trying to avoid busting out another 10gallon, but it may just be easier in the end. The no-longer-quite-so-little Cambodian girl is in the hospital barracks. I'm guessing she matured and tried to duke it out with one of the yellow girls downstairs. Didn't quite end up in her favor... Also, finally got enough dwarf baby tears to be able to start propagating some. I just put a handful of small clumps down at the front today. Here's hoping they grow! Trimmed the A. reineckii to start some new stems as well. They grow so sloooooow. And the apono in the back is growing so fast. (The apono is behind the crypt, sorry can't actually see it!) >.<









And lastly, MissJ is recovering in the third and final section. The duck weed is going nuts! I wish I still have my goldfish; they would have chowed down on that _so_ hard. I just tied some java moss to the driftwood in there too. I'm saving the rest of the moss for the fry tank. *knock on wood*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

[Censor]! I know fish can dump a lot of eggs but 4digit numbers from something so small?!?! No wonder she was so picky about who she'd mate, wanted the best possible genetic donee for all those babies. At least it didn't turn into tons of eggs and non were actually fertilized. Good luck with the fry


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> [Censor]! I know fish can dump a lot of eggs but 4digit numbers from something so small?!?! No wonder she was so picky about who she'd mate, wanted the best possible genetic donee for all those babies. At least it didn't turn into tons of eggs and non were actually fertilized. Good luck with the fry


Heheh! She was looking rather blimp-like when I first started, and only packed in more eggs as I conditioned her. I thought female betta only had "ripe" eggs in one ovary at a time, but I think she was loaded in both barrels, so to speak! Especially since there were two failed attempts to spawn before this one. They were certainly wrapping enough times! Once they got into the groove of things, I think they were averaging ~20-25 wraps per hour for over four hours.
_________________________
Well, slightly over 48h post-spawn and there are little eyeballs _*everywhere*_. This morning I started to see little white dots (about the size of a pin head) with tails falling out of the nest. Ezra is looking a little frantic by now, he keeps switching between scanning the floor for babies and shuttling them back up. The fry aren't free swimming yet, but they are definitely wriggling about and causing havoc in the nest! I have no clue how many surviving fry are in the tank right now...

I think I'll start the egg yolk tomorrow. The micro/Walter/banana worm culture is ready. Plenty of vinegar eels as well. BBS are on standby until the fry get a bit bigger. Let's hope this transition goes smoothly!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

More than I ever wanted to know about nematodes: microworms, Walter worms, banana worms.

For the purposes of feeding fry, I'm going to consider them basically the same thing (i.e. very small worms). They're easy to culture and feed, especially since they wiggle which triggers a prey strike in fry. 

Not going to do a detailed breakdown, but here's more than I ever wanted to know about these little wigglers...

Basic biology:
Growth, development, reproduction

Fry need a higher percentage of (unsaturated) fatty acids to support their growth/development. 
So, effect of supplementing the culture medium on fry growth:
Sunflower oil
Fish oil

Supplementing with spirulina (inconclusive data for carotenoids):
Spirulina

Life span: 2-3 weeks
Sexual maturity: 3days
Maturity (size): 6 days

Culture: 
20-28 deg C
0.8% saline
1-2% fish or sunflower oil
small pinch of yeast
starch-based: oatmeal, corn flour, bread

Harvest:
Collect and resuspend in water.
Gentle centrifugation.
Decant and resuspend.
Spin, decant, and feed.

Can be grown in dirt, but requires feeding. Slower reproduction but no smell.
Can be grown in liquid culture.
Cultures can be stored at 4 deg C to slow growth or for long term storage at -20 deg C up to 1 year.

Nutritional analysis (no ref):
48% protein
21% lipid
7% glycogen
1% organic acids (amino acid profile similar to artemia
1% nucleic acids


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

It's 72h post-spawn, and the eyeballs are a little easier to see now. They're imitating little whirly-gigs and twirling around like mad between the bottom of the tank and the nest. Ezra is doing his best to keep them corralled down by the back end of the tank, but... Well, there were some escapees. Which gave me a chance to snap a photo or two. They've still got their egg sac and hanging tail down from the surface, so I'm holding off on introducing the vinegar eels today. I'll re-evaluate tomorrow morning. Still no idea on how many fry are in the tank. It seems like a manageable number, though it's hard to see into the back of the tank. The duckweed is also a really nice addition; there's a lot of fry hanging on the roots, and it gives them a place to rest near the surface.
*
I spy with my little eyes!*









They are ridiculously difficult to focus on. I need a zoom lens. Here they just look like fuzzy blobs >.<


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

The fry are free-swimming now and I think they're eating. Their bellies are opaque white and I can see them zipping around in the water like they're chasing something. They're currently on vinegar eels and microworms with a daily helping of egg yolk. I rather like the spray bottle method for feeding egg: mash a small grain of egg yolk in water, add mixture to a small mister/spray bottle, and pump one to three sprays to evenly disperse the egg mixture across the surface of the water. 

I'm removed Ezra. He was acting a little too twitchy for my comfort. He's winding down in the split 10gallon with Tamer and MissJ as next door neighbors. 

There is a larger than expected number of fry in the tank. I think I should have pulled more eggs... In any case, here's the little swimmers!

*More escapees from Ezra*









*Eyeballs! Eyeballs everywhere!*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Hopefully you get some lovely babies from the spawn.. ugh gl at cupping time x.x so many water changes! Unless you have a complex pump and gravity rack and airline tubing style mass connected jar fun.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Hopefully you get some lovely babies from the spawn.. ugh gl at cupping time x.x so many water changes! Unless you have a complex pump and gravity rack and airline tubing style mass connected jar fun.


Thanks AA! Nope, this is going to have to be by hand. /SOB! Next fish room, I'm setting up a drip system and a rebuilding my sumps. Right now, I'm thinking about sectioning up some 10gallons instead of separate jars. Or water bottles in a Rubbermaid bin.


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## Julie7778 (Mar 20, 2015)

What did you use and do to make the mesh box? What materials  and congratulations on the fry  I'll be subbing!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hello and welcome, Julie! I had some leftover sheets of plastic craft mesh from when I was making the tank dividers. (Usually found in a rainbow of colors in any craft store next to the yarn aisle.) It's one long rectangular piece that I bent into 3 sections and two smaller pieces cut to fit the two open ends. I just stitched them in place with waxed thread (or fishing line would also work). I'm willing to McGuyver just about anything to fit my needs!  The top can be reinforced with the plastic binder clips if needs. It's actually rather handy. I think I'm going to make some more when I have time.


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## Julie7778 (Mar 20, 2015)

Wow! Thanks, how is Tamer and the fry doing? Updates please!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Unexpected trip back out to NYC for family reasons, so I'm rather worried about the fry back home right now... For the love of little baby bettas, I hope the pet sitter follows my instructions! My baby fry!!!

Just as a PSA, if anyone in the NYC region is looking for koi plakat, Aquarium Village got a shipment in recently. I saw some about 5-6 koi and a pretty good selection of assorted DTs. The koi were mostly white bodied with small to medium patches of red and black. They're on the smallish side, but with some time and TLC... So far the best selection of betta I've seen in the NYC area; they're mostly imports from 2 Thai breeders. The halfmoons that I saw were so-so; I'd love to hit that place on the day a shipment arrives!

Sadly, Petco was low on stock and the rest of the fish stores that I've hit have pretty much stocked the typical Segrest quality betta. Manhattan Aquarium has a pretty wicked salt water selection (crap for betta though. Meh.) I'll poke my nose in Pacific, Fishtown, and some others if I have time in the next few days.

And the food. OMG Chinatown. OM NOM NOM NOM!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Sigh.

Stressful emergency trip to NYC + a metric sh!t ton of appointments to deal with family things + coming home to a mostly dead fry tank. /headwall

I think I spotted 5-6 surviving fry while I was doing a very much needed water change and general tank clean up. Overfeeding + the petsitter leaving the tank light on = ammonia spike and an algal bloom and a whole lotta dead fry. This spawn is pretty much a bust, and I don't have the energy to contemplate prepping for another attempt. May be in a couple of days or I may just wait until the summer. Coddle the surviving fry and see how they turn out. Ugh. So tired with life right now.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry about the fry die off :c hope the few that made it keep growing and don't just end up being messed up and dieing soon anyways.
At the aquarium store with good marine selection did you see a .. saltwater betta?!








I've never tried (and would be scared to) but I'd seriously considering setting up a 55-75g salt water tank for that bad boy!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Damn, that's a gorgeous fish!

Sadly, I think the damage was too great. The fry keep dropping one by one. I was half expecting something like this once I realized I'd have to make a week-long emergency trip right after a spawn. I've also lost two of my cherry shrimp, and the plants are covered in slime and hair algae. I'm going to tear down the tank and cull, rather than watch everything die by degrees. Even if any fry survive, they've be severely stressed during a critical developmental period. It'll actually be kinder to cull now instead of raising weak fry with potential health issues. The whole situation just pisses me off to the nth degree and was completely unnecessary. People, if you're in your 90s and still refuse to put your affairs in order... words fail me.

On the more positive side, the rest of the critters survived with minimal stress. (Although, I have to say $144 to board my parrot? Holy #$^[email protected], he better have been getting the birdie five-star chef and spa treatment!) Also, I've spent hundreds of dollars on parrot toys, and his favorite things to play with? Plastic lids. Sigh. This? 

*This is the face of a completely spoiled rotten parrot.*









Tamer is usually a camera hog but he's still sulking from the week-long fast. At least, he looks better (you'll have to take my word on that); his fins are still growing in. He was happy enough to come out and scarf up the brine shrimp, but resumed his sulking once the food was gone.

*If looks could kill...*









MissJ is still recovering from the last spawn; she's still a bit tattered. And she's so skinny now! Luckily, she was readily appeased by food bribes and came out for the camera.

*I can has noms? OM NOM NOM NOMS.*









I have never seen her this thin. Time to fatten her back up. 
*MOAR EGGSES!*









Ezra decided to protest the lack of food by gnawing on the edges of his tail. Sigh. I stuffed him full of brine shrimp today. Hopefully that puts a stop to that.
*WRONG NOMS! STOP THAT!*









Yeah, someone looks a little sheepish!









My poor little RCS! Here's the two surviving ladies. I think I'm going to visit Rivers to Reefs tomorrow and see if I can rebuild the colony. Hang in there, ladies!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry about the disasters :c. I'm very against going away for many days but if I did I would just fast do a water change on all tanks before I left then leave everyone to thier own devices. Lights are on timers and everyone would just have to fast. I'd suspect my shrimp would get eaten by the betta and dwarf puffer once the fish get hungry. My black worms would die since they don't have a cycled tank and need every other day water changes... I'd just pre-order replacements to arrive the day after I get back... Yeh I think to much about what I'd do in what situations...also have my whole moving plan (for aquarium stuff) laid out >.>''


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

MWAHAHA! 

Ahem. 

At last, all my genetic ducks are all lined up. BLI gold (NMS +/+), BLI yellow (NR1 -/-), and BLI red (NR1 +/- carriers). It's time to go for the gold! The BLI red spawn (NR1 carriers) are growing well and should be ready for breeding in time for a F3 outcross. Let's estimate that at ~4-6 months in the future. 

Moving on to Step 2: BLI gold x BLI yellow.

Introducing Tamer 2.0 in HMPK form! Still young, the yellow irridescence (NMS) is there, most noticeably in the fins and head. That will intensify as he ages, I'm more concerned that the iridescence is fully spread to the outer edges of the all the fins and head. If you'll recall the original, longfin Tamer has a translucent edge around his caudal. 









Additionally, there's considerably less pastel/opaque, although you can still see some in between the rays and on the head, especially in the caudal and anal fins. But there's practically none on the body, which will (hopefully) let the underlying yellow chromatophores show through the yellow iridescence layer, generating the rich 24K gold color that I want. 

Observe the opaque white pigment in between the groups of rays.


















Eventually, the BLI/BSE (whatever you want to call the "pineapple" trait) will have to be bred out. But for now, I think it needs to stay until I figure out how to maintain that thick, opaque yellow that MissJ has. Speaking of the devil, MissJ is chock a block full of eggs again, and flaring like mad at... hmmm, apropos of the original Tamer, let's name him Temujin. The spawn tank is set up, Temujin is nosing around in it, and MissJ is in the adjacent tank and ready to rumble.

HNNNNNG, THAT YELLOW.


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Lookin' good Z!

Temujin? Cool name. Are you a fan of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History or just the Khans in general?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

^.^ A little bit of both (nothing like a smidge of world domination. What start a land war in Asia?), as well as a play on the original meaning of both names! Re: breeding for the _No Metallic Spread_ (NMS) trait in _gold bettas_ that have names meaning _"(of) iron"_. Oh so punny!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

So the idea was to get started on the second cross, namely Temujin x MissJ. A bit of history on him, since I was too caught up with SQUEEEEEEE-ing over his photos. He came to me by way of Yang Her, spawned sometime late January/early February 2015 from a Super Gold HMPK (Thai import) x pineapple gold (unknown US breeder). ~4.5 months old, and most likely NMS +/+ and BLI +/-. Way lower expression of BLI though. MissJ is also BLI +/-, but she's flaunting the full pineapple while Temujin is more like... half a pineapple. Interestingly, he doesn't seem to have the steel blue wash that Tamer is developing, which is awesome, but he's a bit pug-faced. Hopefully crossing with MissJ will get that straightened out; at least he's not spoonheaded or humpbacked though! He also has gorgeous early branching in the tail; they look like fans rather than brooms. Again, weak outer rays to watch out for, which does not play well with MissJ's tail wreck... Eh, work in progress.

*Step 2 in breeding for 24K gold:*








*
Of course, after a stimulating day of being cupped in the tank with Temujin, this happened:*









...is this a thing now? This is a thing now. This can stop being a thing at any time. 
@#%#$ girl, KEEP YOUR PANTS ON AND YOUR EGGS IN!
Now I just need a nice thunderstorm to roll through tomorrow to set the mood...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, it was a very... inefficient... spawning, but Temujin and MissJ did the dirty. He's a tad too small to wrap and flip MissJ, although I think he did get her to drop some eggs. I'd probably ballpark it at 50-100 eggs. Hopefully some of them are fertile. I'll probably have to retry this spawn in a couple months. Or do a backcross, he has a lovely tail...

*Heave-HO! And over she goes.
*









I think MissJ was actually shuttling most of the eggs into the nest, which is not a good sign for a successful wrap. But the proof is in the pudding or the nest rather. We'll see what happens in 48 h. On the plus side, MissJ was much easier to fish out of the spawn tank this time. She's pretty chewed up too...









*Who's your daddy?
*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Hope you end up with a batch of wiggle-y eye ball goodness in the next day.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Hope you end up with a batch of wiggle-y eye ball goodness in the next day.


Man, talk bout being on tether hooks all day! I think I saw movement in the nest, but I'm not 100% sure that I saw eyeballs and/or tails. I could be deluding myself :-? I really really want there to be eyeballs/tails. Temujin is patrolling the tank and maintaining the nest, so that's a good sign. Probably need to wait another 24 h and see if there are any free-swimmers to be certain! 

Which brings up the next question: what the heck color to expect out of this spawn? Temujin looks more like a soft gold than an Interbetta Super Gold, which is actually good for my plans. Which would also mean that he doesn't carry and/or express any red pigment at all. So crossing him with MissJ should pass on one of her non-red copies to the F1. The question then becomes:
1) do the fry develop as yellows (the single NR1 gene is acting alone in the red layer) or 
2) do the fry default to red (the hypothetical single red gene trumps NR1) or 
3) do the fry default to cellophane (the "no red" trumps everything)?

They'll most likely display a range from completely clean to complete pineapple since both parents are heterozygous for BLI. (And BLI seems to have variable expression to begin with.) Which is perfect for later spawns; the tricky part will be keeping enough F1 to ensure at least one is BLI +/-.

The iridescence layer will be interesting. MissJ is going to pass on one copy of steel blue, although it'll at least be paired with reduced spread. Temujin carries at least one copy of opaque, so that will further reduce the potential blue wash. And of course, the F1 should get one copy of NMS from Temujin, so they should be shimmery but not out and out gold. 

The plan would then be to do a F1 cross ideally between fry with the least blue, black, and opaque and the most yellow and gold. Then to line breed to enrich and lock in the gold, using the red line which are NR1 carriers to outcross and refresh the yellow as needed.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Let's hear it for an early TGIF! Brother is back in town, and we'll be having dinner with the parents for an early Father's Day celebration. Just to finish off the week:

*Eyeballs and Tails!
*Well, OK. Technically there's only one set of eyeballs & tails in the photo, but they're free swimming now and s/he has some siblings elsewhere in the tank. (Two sets if you count Temujin lurking in the background.) It's rather hard to get an estimate, there's a lot of duckweed and Temujin is doing an excellent impression of a mama hen with one chick. He's being aggressively active in catching and returning any escapees back to the nest, but I know I saw at least 3 separate tails around the tank, so hopefully anywhere from 6-12 fry if not more. I started the egg yolk this morning, and introduced some vinegar worms just now. That's in addition to the infusoria that's all over the duckweed.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Congratulations! keep us updated on the fry's growth and colors as they develop ^^


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks AA!

I'm feeling a little silly raising a spawn of ~7 fry, so I paired Temujin back up with MissJ. This time I doubled the water level to 10 inches (rather than the normal 6 inches) and that seemed to help a little. Or Temujin had a bit more experience this time around! (Oi, virgin males... MissJ kept trying to nudge his midsection to get him in the proper position, poor girl! Maybe she should be renamed Mrs. Robinson.) I'm estimating about 200-250 eggs in the nest this time and hopefully a higher fertility rate than the previous attempt. At least this time, he was a little better at wrapping (though the majority of the time, it was still a merry-go-round of the perpetually sexually frustrated...)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hrmm, well. Scratch that idea; either the eggs weren't fertile or something about the deeper tank was stressing Temujin. He ended up eating all the eggs. :-( On the plus side, the ~7 fry from the first spawn between Temujin and MissJ are doing well (although one is a little runty). They've moved up to a mix or micro/Walter/banana worms and chowing down fiends. They're scooting around the tank pretty well, like zippy little boogers. Literally. They're little pale, white-ish blobs with a tail!

*Checking out the snails...
*









*...and the duckweed.
*









The two red NR1b carriers are growing nicely too! Both are spotting the "full pineapple", so either +/- or +/+ for BLI/BSE. The male looks to be developing into a 4-ray HM, which is awesome since I was shooting for 4-6rays in the tail. He's got a little more iridescence than expected, but you really need the flash on to see it.

*Baby's first flare: KILL! MAIM! BITE!
*








*
WTF THE LIGHT!*









*Sweet blessed darkness.
*









The girl was deliberately chosen for her 2-ray tail. She'll never show the full 180° spread of a HM, but I wanted her in case I needed to reduce the ray count when I eventually need to buy an AB NR1b male. She's also showing more iridescence than the sibling male, which UGH, is going to be annoying. But otherwise, I'm pretty happy with there two.

*The Mamacita
*









*I love her dorsal. She won't let me photograph it! GRRR.
*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Lol first thought of the fry and snail photo betta fry:"One day i will be big and I shall *eat you*!"
Also haha no dorsal love for you (last photo)

Sorry the second spawn was a bust :c


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, look who's a precocious little brat!
*
This shall be MINE!
*









*Double the bubbles, double the MINE!
*









*Flare! Flare! Camera! Flare!*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

It's always interesting to see how hormonal changes cause bettas to change colors. After Temujin came out of the spawn tank, he started developing tiny red speckles on his fins. This could be a positive sign that he's already a NR1 carrier (with localized reversions to red). The base of his anal fin does look a little yellow, but it's hard to determine what his base color is under all that iridescence. I sort of feel like he's carrying too much NMS for what I want, more like the iridescence is masking the underlying yellow rather than blending with it... Hrmmmmm, can't wait to see how the fry color up...










The more I read, the more I believe that the majority of betta coloration is due to pterins rather than carotenoids. Which poses several interesting questions in the case of red/orange/yellow bettas: 1) What chromatophore is "it" contained in; 2) does the biochemistry corroborate the genetics; and 3) how does this affect the overall health of yellow/orange bettas?

Pterin biosynthesis is pretty well understood at this point. (So far there is no known pterin that is specific for orange, suggesting it's a mix of red and yellow phenotypes.) Red and yellow are generated from the same pathway up to the precursor 6-PTP then the pathway splits in three different directions: 1. drosopterin (red); 2. sepiapterin (yellow); and 3. biopterin (a really really really important co-enzyme). Way the heck back in the 70's, Lucas showed that extended red bettas produced drosopterin, sepiapterin, and biopterin. And yellow bettas produced sepiapterin but lacked drosopterin and _*more importantly biopterin*_.

Biopterin is important enough that there are two pathways to generate it: 1. direct synthesis from 6-PTP and 2. conversion from sepiapterin. Reduction of biopterin levels throws a lot of biology out of whack. It's required to make essential amino acids (phenylalanine, tyrosine, and tryptophan) and certain neurotransmitters (dopamine, norepinepherine, epinepherine, and serotonin). These defects translate into PKU, reduced mental and physical development, and ultimately premature death if not corrected after birth. Interestingly, the amino acid tyrosine is used to synthesize melanin, which could explain why outcrossing a darkbodied/chocolate betta will rejuvenate the yellow color in a fading yellow line. (The reasoning being the chocolate phenotype is producing melanin > which indicates that tyrosine is being produced > which indicates that biopterin is being produced. Therefore restoring an essential pathway in yellow bettas.)

The more I think about it, the stranger the low hatch rate of the two spawns between Temujin and MissJ becomes. OK, a virgin male is a large factor, but even then, with ~200 eggs in the nest, I'd expect at least a 10% hatch rate not the 0%-5% that occurred. While I'm waiting for the F1 from spawns 150323 and 150615 to reach maturity, I'm going to do a test cross between Temujin and a sister sibling of MissJ:

*Introducing MissK *(NR1b, BSE -/-, HM/HMPK): 
Yes, she really is _that yellow_. Her and her 3 other sister sibs are absolutely stunning, a clean and opaque canary yellow. (But slightly chewed on; they're feisty, big girls!) 


















A previous shot of MissJ for comparison:









Tamer is currently loafing around in one of the 1 gallons. He's slowed down significantly and has developed a cyst/tumor/bump on his face between his lip and left eye. It doesn't seem to be affecting him much and as long as it remains small, he should be OK. Just going to watch him for now. He was being a brat and kept being a puffball at the camera, so I couldn't get a broadside shot of him today. Here's his grump face with the cyst thing in pink.









Sadly, Ezra passed on due to a velvet infection that I wasn't able to detect and control fast enough. I think it hit his gills first before forming visible flecks on the head/body. I noticed he was a little low energy for two days but no other symptoms and then he just crashed in 12h after I got him into acriflavin. :-(

Long live mini-Ezra. (Temujin's reaction here:  "Kid, I could eat you in one bite. Try again.")









And the lady in red:









Finally, the youngest addition to the swarm: Temujin's kids. There seems to be _nine_ of them, rather than the seven that I originally counted. They've developed dorsal and anal fins now to go along with the caudal and they're starting to... _sparkle_. Like Twilight vampires. In sunlight. Yeah, I had a moment of severe mental trauma when I realized that. It's an apt description though. They're very... UGH, sparkly. Where's the brain bleach?

I'm a vampire! *sparkle sparkle*









This is Chubs.









Thing One and Thing Two


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Just a quick update tonight.

I think Tamer's pink bump is an infected nostril. It looks very similar to what my Rift Lake cichlids got after excessively digging around in their tank substrate. Decided to treat it similarly, in any case, so did a dry tap with a sterile needle and added some kanamycin to the tank water. It's been ~48h and the bump is still there, but less red and slightly smaller. His appetite is good, and he's swimming about. So far, so good.

Temujin has continued to mature, and he's been pretty hyped up over all these storms streaming over top the mid-eastern US. Bubble nests every other day and a high protein diet, so he should be ready to spawn right after I get back from Minnesota. 

Misses J and K are in a adjacent tanks, and both are chock-full of eggs. K has a few millimeters on J, and Temujin already has issues wrapping J. I have no idea if he can handle the slightly larger K. I figure if he can't, I'll pair him with MissJ again. I wouldn't mind another spawn from that pair.

The mini-reds are growing like weeds. Woot! I'm holding off on breeding either of them until they hit 6 months of age, which would put them at a September spawn. I'd like to backcross mini-Ezra to MissJ. Hopefully he will have grown enough to wrap MissJ by then, otherwise I think I'll pair to female to Temujin. She's already fat with eggs; I'd just like her to mature a bit more before going into the spawn tank.

The gold babies are apparently half ninja. There are now 14 fry in the tank. Nnrrrrg, I have no idea where they keep appearing from; each time I clean the tank, I get a higher tail count. And it's a 2.5 gallon tank, so it's not like there's a whole lot of real estate for them to be hiding in! I can accurately estimate hundreds of bacterial colonies on a petri dish, and still fail to count <20 fry in a small tank. Derp derp. Otherwise, they're coming up on 4 weeks; ventrals are just visible; and they're chowing down on micro/Walter/banana worms. I've started introducing thawed daphnia, but they're impressively not impressed. It's not moving; therefore, it is not food. 

This spawn is pretty cool though. I wish I was able to get more fry out of it. The fry have been coloring up (more like non-coloring up), and it looks like there's an interesting mix developing. Most of the fry are a pale, fleshy-colored off-white, while a few are completely bone white. Hopefully, those are my NR1s. In addition to the base color, the iridescence is really turning out to be wild. It's starting to look like a mix of blues, blue/opaques, blue/yellow (coppers), and maybe two yellows (gold). The yellow iridescence really does make them look like shiny copper pennies. They're growing so fast and yet so slow at the same time...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Came home to a major insurrection among the tanks today. Must have been all those crazy pressure fronts rolling through recently...

MissK was dropping eggs left, right, front, and back all over her tank. By herself. Which I was OK with, I wasn't planning on breeding her for another 3 weeks so, sure, letting off a little pressure is fine. Right up until I realized I couldn't find her sister, MissJ.









MissJ, ever the independent woman, decided to _CHANGE TANKS_ and go visit Temujin. About 3 weeks ahead of schedule. :roll: Don't ask me how she got in there. I got nothing. Literally nothing. Luckily, Temujin didn't have a bubble nest ready to go today, so he apparently spent the day building one instead of wrapping MissJ. Thank goodness there were no SURPRISE!babies from this pair.









Now, at this point, you'd think I was in the clear. Yeah, so did I. Until I noticed that MissJ wasn't the only pilgrim seeking the Holy Land...





At least the mini-reds were in the same divided tank. Who knows where they would have ended up otherwise. At this point, Vegas would have been a potential answer. I'm guessing the female managed to hop the fence, and the two decided to tango. Luckily for me, they're (read: were) virgins. Note the complete and utter failure to correctly position their vents close together. That - plus their age - suggests a 0% fertility spawn. If I thought there was any chance of those eggs hatching, I'd pull them out tonight, but since I'm pretty sure they're not fertile, I'll let mini-Ezra tend the eggs to get the experience. 

At least Tamer was good. He was chilling by himself in his tank, right where he's supposed to be.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I think MissJ really is part ninja. :shock: Came home today to find her in Temujin's tank again. _(How the @#$% is she doing that?!!) _This is particularly amazing since she's normally found on the right side of 10 gallon tank #1, while Temujin is on the left side of 10 gallon tank #2. I think she's jumping out through a narrow 1cm slot in the back of the hood and into the adjacent tank, which has a wider back opening (originally for a HOB filter).

...and Temujin has a bubble nest all set up from yesterday. 

...which means I came home to this: _*YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!*_





Well, technically I am. All cultures are up and running at max, but I'm also going out of town in two weeks. The humane and ethical thing to do would be to pull the eggs tonight and respawn the pair when I get back as initially planned. There's a little devil on my shoulder whispering, "But look at that! Temujin is wrapping her correctly. Those eggs are fertile. There's a lot of eggs. It's already a successful spawn. Why waste it?"

For the record, now that they're wrapping correctly, MissJ is on track to pop out another 2000 egg spawn. She is an EGG MACHINE. She's averaging 20 eggs per wrap, and there is a masssive cluster of eggs in the nest already. It's on par with her first spawn. 

On a more positive note, mini-Ezra is sporting a pretty full belly full of eggs. Not too surprising, since there was little chance that spawn was fertile. A good early experience in wrapping for the mini-reds though somewhat unplanned. Fixed the divider, so that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Mmrff. What to do, what to do?


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Haha poor you. But it could be worse.. lil' miss ninja could have destroyed or been destroyed by Temujin.. so at least they're getting along while she's having her impromptu visits.
Would letting him tend babies 2 weeks unattended lead to any bad habits with egg/fry tending later since they may not survive your absence? If not and if the 2 weeks away won't mean any surviving fry need culled from deformities I'd let it run its coarse... and move your jumper gal to a better sealed tank before the trip!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Haha poor you. But it could be worse.. lil' miss ninja could have destroyed or been destroyed by Temujin.. so at least they're getting along while she's having her impromptu visits.
> Would letting him tend babies 2 weeks unattended lead to any bad habits with egg/fry tending later since they may not survive your absence? If not and if the 2 weeks away won't mean any surviving fry need culled from deformities I'd let it run its coarse... and move your jumper gal to a better sealed tank before the trip!


Ha! I ended up saran wrapping the back of the tank. No more field trips for anyone. Temujin's tank is decently planted with three pieces of drift wood, so MissJ probably would have been OK. But yeah, bullet dodged on that front. 

In two weeks, I'll be leaving for a one week vacation. I've been meaning to try out the "father-in" method of breeding, supposedly it leads to smaller spawns but the fry grow faster, are healthier, and become better parents. My one concern is feeding the little fellows while I'm gone. I may have a friend come over every other day to drop in some worms.

That's *if* this spawn hatches. There is definitely something fishy going on when I cross Temujin and MissJ. Last night, there was an egg mass about the size of a silver dollar. Right now, Temujin has reduced that down to about 150 eggs. At this point, I really don't think it's a technical issue; they're certainly wrapping correctly now. And I know the problem isn't on MissJ's end. When I crossed her to Ezra, the red spawn was large and viable. Either Temujin is an egg eater, which is unlikely since he'd eat the whole spawn; my liquid rock water is interfering with fertilization (I know it had an effect on my angel spawns); or crossing the two is somehow setting up an embryonic lethal effect. I could see it happening if Temujin carries a bit of NR1. I really need to do that cross with MissJ's sister...

Well, guess I'll be searching for eyeballs and tails tomorrow!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hmmm, Temujin has further reduced the egg count down to maybe 25-50 eggs. I really don't think he's an egg eater; he is and has taken good care of nest, eggs, and fry. I'm doubtful it's an environmental issue. It just seems like something is wrong with the eggs. I really really need to try a cross with MissK, maybe try artificially hatching the eggs if that doesn't help. Maybe NR1b is homozygous lethal? I wonder how readily biopterin is absorbed...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Unexpectedly, all five of the bone white babies from Temujin x MissJ died within the last 24h. Three were fairly runty, small but eating well. The other two appeared large and healthy. I did notice all five hovering close to the surface of the water during the day, which was a little odd, but otherwise, there didn't seem to be anything wrong. No signs of gross developmental issues or parasitic/bacterial infections. Water conditions and temperature are normal. They were slightly under 5 weeks old and comparable to their spawn siblings. Did a 50% water today just in case, will be watching the rest of the spawn closely. 










As for the current Temujin x MissJ spawn, Temujin is still patrolling and maintaining the nest, but I haven't seen any eyes, tails, or eggs. He's done this the last two times as well. The first was a small but successful spawn, the second was a failed spawn and he eventually stopped tending the nest. I'm leaving the tank covered for now, and I'll check it tomorrow or movement. Since it's Temujin's regular planted tank, there's plenty of infusoria and copepods for any emerging fry to snack on, hopefully.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

The loss of the 5 white fry still has me scratching my head. Here's one of the larger ones. Definitely no sign of external bacterial or parasitic infections. No internal swelling or hemorrhaging, so an internal infection is unlikely. Paired and unpaired fins are undamaged and developed normally, including the ventrals, which have just come in. Prior to death, the fry were buoyant, swimming and eating normally, and reacting to light/movement. You can even see that the second wave of melanophores are already established, prior to differentiation into the various chromatophores. (Looks like I should be expecting the surviving fry to color up soon! The structural color really does develop much earlier than the carotenoid/pterin pigmentation, which is funny, since from a survival standpoint, it'd be better to develop the darker pigments before the flashy iridescence.)

Hrmph, well that leaves a dietary issue, some sort of genetic lethality, or a completely random fluke as possible reasons for death. Let's see what happens with the second spawn.

Speaking of the second spawn...









After reducing a ~1000 egg spawn down to may be 25-50 eggs, Temujin rebuilt this monstrosity of a nest. It spans 6 inches in length, 4 inches in width, and ~1/4 of an inch in height. I've seen at least 3 individual fry attempt to flee hearth and home only to be rudely mouth-napped and spit back into the bubbles by Temujin. The fry are slowly getting faster. Escape is nigh! I have no idea how many of them there are, but Temujin is eating his normal foods and not the fry. I'm dropping in some NLS Fry and microworms to supplement the assorted critters that live in a planted tank.

On the plus side, Tamer's swollen nostril has de-swollen, returning his head to its normal profile. There's a hole where the bump was, but I'm hoping the scales will grow back. Otherwise, I'll just have to keep him in squeaky clean water. May be start adding a tonic dose of salt to his tank.


















Everyone else is doing well; the twelve surviving fry are pigging out on BBS. Misses J and K are even more egg heavy.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

So Rivers to Reefs is now stocking Repashy Superfood, and I've been meaning to try this out for a long while now, specifically for growing out fry. I've heard mixed reviews. On the up side, you can leave it in tank for the fry to nibble on throughout the day without worrying about it dying/rotting like live/frozen foods. On the down side, I've heard breeders getting better growth rates with the live/frozen. I'm mainly planning to use Repashy as a supplement in addition to the 2-3 feedings that I already do. Just reading over the ingredients list, I'm pretty happy already. I especially like the use of plant-based gums as thickeners over the harder to digest agar or gelatin. The ash content is a little high, but I'm liking the protein and fats.



> INGREDIENTS: Squid Meal, Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Schizochytrium Algae, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Coconut Meal, Dried Seaweed Meal, Lecithin, Spirulina Algae, Dried Kelp, Locust Bean Gum, Potassium Citrate, Taurine, Watermelon, RoseHips, Hibiscus Flower, Calendula Flower, Marigold Flower, Paprika, Turmeric, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as preservatives), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Manganese Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Copper Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Selenium Yeast. Vitamins: (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2- Monophosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex).
> 
> Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 14%, Crude Fiber max. 5%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 9%.


It comes out of the jar as a tan colored granulated power. After talking to the guys at R2R, I decided to mix it 1:1 with boiling water as they suggested to make it firmer, rather than the 1 Repashy:3 H2O on the instructions. This caused it to set up REALLY FAST! Almost didn't get it into the food molds fast enough. Otherwise, very easy to prepare. As expected, smells pretty darn fishy. If you've ever prepared a homemade recipe for fish food, you'll find it a familiar scent. 

Just moved the 11 surviving fry from the Temujin x MissJ spawn into a divided 10 gallon. Temujin is on the other side of the divider, and I've already had to rescue one adventurous fry (the smallest) who almost Darwin-ed herself out of the gene pool by going over to visit poppa-fish. Luckily, the other 10 are too big to fit through the holes in the divider! Here's one of the blue/opaque kids checking out the feeding station. Today's offering was minced worm bits. I left the block of Repashy on the driftwood; hopefully they'll give it a nibble?


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Love the new avatar!
I use Repashy soilent green for my otos and shrimp but the cory, cherry barbs, and angelfish will also eat it (shrimp obviously in separate tank from them), so I have to put it in at nigh right before the room's lights turn off. msjinkxd said she fed the zebra otos this stuff so i bought some to keep them from starving while they figured out cucumber=food.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hehehe, yeah s/he's an adorable little grumpy guts. The fry are on the fence about the Repashy. The cories and synos chowed down like a fire sale. The Congo tetras and rasboras were a bit confused, but they eventually took to it. 

I'm in Minnesota now, and HELLOOOOOOO Betta Shop! Spent about half an hour eyeballing the stock before picking out some plakats. Met Tony (the owner); he was awesome! Very friendly and helpful even though the store was busy. I managed to hit it right at opening time on the day new stock arrived. SCORE! No Aquastar bettas in this week, but there were some very nice giants. Those puppies are HUGE. It's one thing to see a photo; it's another to see one in person and realize #@#% that's a betta. I picked out some new HMPKs, 2 males and 2 females that Tony will ship to Ohio on Monday. I decided not to go the airport route, since I still have 4 days until I actually fly out. Pics forthcoming! Got a blonde red male HMPK, a Super Red female HMPK (2 ray), a blonde NR2 female HMPK (2 ray), and a salamander male big ear HMPK. There were some nice yellows, great color but their form... *wince*. 

I'm (still) not a fan of the dumbo/elephant ears; I feel like the pectorals are exaggeratedly large to the point of tearing easily and distort the fish's carriage. When the betta is still, the larger pectorals tend to drag downward out of alignment, instead of being held perpendicular to the body. Plus, I'm seeing a lot of wonky effects on the edges of fins and mouth when the trait is excessively inbred in order to create those large large ears. In comparison, big ears have pectorals that are much more in proportion to the other fins. They're still delightfully cute while having that fluttery appearance. I didn't get a matching female, since I didn't really like any in stock. I also want to try to bring the big ear trait into a different color, may be red or platinum. Or... gold? =D

Can't wait to get home. Time to set up another 10 gallon!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, hopefully my HMPKs are in the mail today. No word from Tony or tracking number yet. I want mah fishies!

On the home front, everyfish was alive and kicking when I got home (YAY!). The first 5 minutes after arriving home from an out-of-town trip are the most nerve wracking for me as I scamper from tank to tank. Did anything go wrong? Tanks crash? Heaters failed? Sick/dead fish? Whew, all safe! The four non-BSE yellow ladies and MissJ are leaner, meaner, and feisty as all get out in the 20 gallon downstairs in the basement. Upstairs, Tamerlane is finally fully recovered from the mauling that MissJ gave him. He went from this right after the final attempt to spawn back in March-ish:








to this:








and finally, ended as this: (the plant lights are bleaching out his usual gold color)








He won't ever be the pretty boy he was in the beginning, but I still have hopes of breeding him. I'm considering the red female from my first spawn. She's still relatively small body-wise and carrying NR1, and Tamer carries NMS and some flavor of NR1 as well, although his tail could use some work. If I do this cross, at some point I'll need to bring in some yellow HMs with excellent form. Time to start looking at Senate betta on AB!

Just a funny (and slightly distorted) photo of Tamer playing chase the stick. Best trick to train a fish to do! Makes for easy handling and photo shoots. BOOP I got you!









Here's the mini-red girl. She took a little bit of damage on her anal fin when she hopped into mini-Ezra's divider back in July(?), but it's pretty much healed up now. She's a lovely red. 









And here's mini-Ezra. He's being a puffball and doing his flare exercises. His tail looks a little raggedy, but it's really not. The red pigment hasn't fully developed at the edges of his tail yet. Hopefully, they'll fill in completely when he's finished growing. He's easily got the HM 180, slightly rounded corners though. He's not fully extended in the photo, but his dorsal has more of a backwards tilt rather than the desired forward tilt. On the plus side, his split ventrals aren't nearly as bad as they were when he was younger. The webbing is filling in between the leading ray and the second; we'll see how that develops..









And finally, the babies! Before my trip, I moved the surviving 11 fry from the gold spawn into a divided 10 gallon with Temujin. I can spot at least 10 fry today for sure (double YAY!). They seem to be a mix of red Cambodians, platinums, and cellophanes right now. Hopefully, the cellophanes are actually NR1s since yellow develops relatively later than red. They on frozen foods now, downing daphnia, beef heart, and spirulina-brine shrimp with a little bit of NLS fry on the side. They're not a fan of the Repashy, although the cories and synos love it. Sigh. Oh well.

Three guesses as to who this little grump is!








This is Lips, one of the red cambos








One of the cellophanes








And one of the platinums









Finally, here's Temujin, being a complete lurker under his bubble nest. Given the appearance of the fry, apparently both he (-/-) and MissJ (+/-) carry cambo. I can't make a clear call on the NR1 yet, have to wait for the fry to finish coloring up first. I'm tentatively calling het on BSE so (+/-) and of course he's NMS (+/+).


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Left work early because MAH FEEEEESH ARE HERE! Since their water was surprisingly similar to Ohio water, I went with the scoop & dump method just to get them out of their bag water and into clean. They all immediately colored up and ate some frozen daphnia. Everyone looks great, minimal stress from their little trip from Minnesota.

First up is a red HMPK male. I'm pretty sure he's a normal extended red expressing blonde. He has that slightly dull, rusty red color rather than the lacquered cherry red of a Super Red. 4-rays in the tail (YAY!) but the outer rays are going to need work. I wouldn't mind a broader base on the dorsal either and his topline could be smoother. His ventrals are awesome and balance nicely with the point on the anal fin. He'll be a lovely addition to the breeding pool once he matures. 

















Then there's this red HMPK female, also expressing blonde and likely a spawn sibling. She has a slight iridescence to her might be a little bit of steel or NMS. She's got the typical stubby first 2 rays on the dorsal but the rest are nice and long. 2-rays in the tail, so I may bring in a yellow AB male with an excessive number of rays. She's also got one split ventral and they both have a bit of a curve to them, but they have good length. I love her looooooong body.

















Next, I've been wanting to bring (NR2) orange into the breeding pool. When I saw this girl, it was YOINK!!! She's definitely carrying cambo (-/-). Little to no iridescence, which is great. Mostly 2-ray in the tail, though she's got a couple that have split into 4-ray. Plus THAT DORSAL. Decent length in the body, with a nice profile. Also, the long, straight ventrals are a bonus. 

















Finally, there's the "salamander" HMPK male. He is reportedly carrying dumbo genetics. I almost didn't get him because he's somewhat spoony in the face. I'm actually not 100% why I got him, I just didn't put his beanie down when I went up to pay. Errr, he... followed me home?


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Lovely new additions, especially like the second new gal!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks AA! It was a great trip all around. I can't believe my little baby cousins are grown up, married, and buying houses. On the one hand, I feel so old. On the other hand, my knee-jerk reaction is "BUT I'M NOT THAT OLD!"

Still lurking in your journal, too. You have such a green thumb!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Zhylis said:


> Thanks AA! It was a great trip all around. I can't believe my little baby cousins are grown up, married, and buying houses. On the one hand, I feel so old. On the other hand, my knee-jerk reaction is "BUT I'M NOT THAT OLD!"
> 
> Still lurking in your journal, too. You have such a green thumb!


I know what you mean.. my cousin had a kid, it felt like no time at all between my mom talking about baby photos and POP she comes to visit and the kid is 10! I kinda don't pay attention to my aging.. after 18 I stopped caring haha. 
And thank you ^^ The green thumb is at a price of learning though, had plenty of disasters to get where I am.. and still learning. Example my 55g lighting is NOT sufficient for true pond plants-they need high light, mine's probably low light.. I had to move 2 of the 3 (fiberoptic grass didn't make it) outside to a bucket by the bird feeder... need to find those plants a permanent pond home (someone who wants to pay for medium priority box to ship 'em, the basket grass has a monstrous root ball!).


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, unexpectedly spent the past week at the ER and now I'm minus one gall bladder and several bettas. >.< Just. Ow. Seriously ow. Been home for a couple days now and just getting around to euthanizing the fish with dropsy. My poor fin babies... Tamer has been bloating on and off for a while now, but it was manageable up until my own little emergency. I tried kanamycin for 48 h as a last ditch attempt to save him, but with his condition worsening, it was time to send him off today. SIP, little buddy. One of the non-BSE yellow females, MissM, is also pineconing, egg-bound in her case I think. Chilling the water for her now... I think I lost a couple babies from the Temujin x MissJ spawn as well. I asked my parents to stop by to feed them, so at least some survived. (I think I count 8-9 tails.) They're pretty big at this point ~1.5-2 cm. Luckily, everyone else looks OK after another week-long fast. Water changes all around today; it's going to be a sloooooooow process. Not moving very fast right now! 

I'll see if I can get some photos of the babies. Interesting genetics; I think 24K bettas will be possible. It'll just be a question of 1, 2, or 3 generations...


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Very sorry for your losses :c


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## savagebeautymnl (Apr 16, 2015)

Finally found your log! So entertaining, and a great reference too. I've become a fan of MissJ's. ;p Crafty little dame. Looking forward to the 24k line!

Sorry to hear about your troubles lately, though. Hope you have a smooth recovery, and that no more fish issues crop up in the meantime!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks AA, losing Tamer so soon was especially sad and frustrating. He was my favorite betta by a long shot, and he was so smart and full of personality too. *grumble grumble*

And hello and welcome SBM! MissJ *is* a little troublemaker; she's so full of sass, there's never a dull moment. Luckily her tank-hopping field trips have been curtailed, at least for now!
__________________________________

Well, I just spent the afternoon doing another round of water changes, and just as I finish the breeding tanks, the skies open up and water falls from the skies... I though the fish were acting a little extra frisky today but I didn't pay them (or the weather) much attention. /headwall Talk about missed opportunities. Sigh. Well, there's still hope! Tomorrow will be similar to today, high of 85°F with 68% humidity and a 50% chance of rain in the afternoon. Prime spawning time! Fingers crossed.

Sooooo, who's in the line up? First up is the F1 sibling cross between MiniEzra and MiniRed. They're 5 months old now and carriers for Cambodian-based Super Red and NR1B (yellow). I'm hoping to recover one or both of those phenotypes in this cross, most likely a majority of red with a sprinkle of yellow and orange, expressed as solids and Cambodians with a range of BSE. I'm also working on reducing the ray count and the iridescence, which will be my main considerations when selecting the F2 fry.









Next up is a test cross between Temujin and MissK, a non-BSE sister of MissJ. The first attempt to pair there two fizzled; I'm just put them back together for try #2. Here, I'm trying to figure out the reason for the low fry hatch rate when crossing Temujin with the yellow girls. Pairing MissJ to a red male results in large, fertile spawns. After 3 attempts to cross her with Temujin, only the first spawn resulted in a small number of surviving fry (19), and I lost 1/3 of those just as they were developing their pigmentation. (And then a handful more during my little emergency. Now I'm down to 9 fry.)









So, those two pairs are in the spawn tanks at the moment. The HMPKs from Minnesota are 2.5 weeks through quarantine and doing well. I've been keeping them pretty lean, but with 1.5 weeks to go, it's time to up the protein and fats to prep for breeding. I figure they'll go into the spawn tanks in mid- to late September. I'm hoping that the two reds and the orange are spawn siblings. But if not, c'est la vie. In any case, the plan is to cross the red male with the NR2 (orange) female, hopefully a bit of her dorsal makes it into the F1. That broad base enlarged into male proportions will be gorgeous. Then, I'm thinking about crossing the salamander male to the red female; the final goal being to see if I can bring out the genes for big ear in the third or fourth generation. (Or if Tony happens to get some nice big ear female HMPKs in, I may have some shipped over and skip a few steps!) In either case, it'll be interesting to pull apart the salamander genotype. Supposedly it's derived from failed attempts to make mustard gas, which may give an interesting insight into yellow. And of course, big ear genetics will be fun to explore as well.


----------



## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*
I can already tell these two are going to get along like a house on fire... May be looking at a deathmatch when I pair them up!

*


----------



## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Again, love your orange girl! Hope her and her perspective mate don't kill/damage eachother. I really like the long low dorsal fin! Saw that on some blue female recently (ebay maybe?) but it had a spoon head/hunch back which kinda killed the visual appeal :/ I'm guessing someone bought it as I've not seen it recently.

Hope your 9 remaining fry survive and give you some good traits/colors/form.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Couple days with afternoon thunder showers, a recent water change, and we just hit a full moon (heck, a super moon even!)... and not a spark of interest between Temujin and MissK. 

I'm about to break out the ice cubes, ya little bastards!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Did you give them candle lit (worm) dinners and put on some mood music?
Sorry they're being so stubborn for you, abut at least its not a "Temunin killed MissK" or vise versa post. 
I've read some people use a watering pale to sprinkle in new water at water changes to stimulate the storm/rain to help bettas get in the mood. I also saw a cool DIY drip pan someone made so they didn't have to hold a watering pale for 20 minutes... let me see if I can dig that up.

edit: found it!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlFNhNZd6go


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ah hahah, I pulled out all the stops, and still no sweet sweet betta love. May have to try the candles next time. I'm separating them again, maybe next week. On the plus side, the HMPKs are getting ready to come out of quarantine in a few more days. Well, all except the red female. She started clamping up today. Hrmmmm... I did a 50% water change and put her in 0.1% NaCl and acriflavine for now; we'll see what happens in the upcoming days. She's still eating but definitely hiding and clamping. I'm giving her the hairy eyeball right now...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

So, I met up with my brother while visiting the parents this Labor Day weekend and ended up nabbing his PC for spare parts/upgrades. He paid a small fortune for this Digital Storm gaming PC a few years back, but the pump that drove the CPU coolant loop shorted out. He ended up running hot and frying his CPU and mobo. Free upgrades for me; yum!  Spent the day gutting it and installing some parts into my Lian Li. 

*Piss poor case design, DS. BLEEECH!
*









*Mmmmm, my precious LL baby!
*









*And now back to the feesh:
*I think these three are my best bet to reach 24k gold: two non-BSE and one BSE. In some light, I'd swear they're NR1 cambos; other times, I think they're just cellophanes. One non-BSE and one BSE are looking pretty clean for Op, while the remaining non-BSE is carrying a decent amount and looks like a pastel. Depending on how the genders fall out, I'll either do a sibling cross to regain NMS +/+ or if I end up with snake eyes on the genetic dice, I'll try to power grow the males and backcross to the yellow girls. If they're all females, I'm screwed and need a yellow male, since I can't backcross to Temujin without reintroducing opaque and guesstimating which of the resulting spawn are NMS +/-, which would be a nightmare!

*The Three Amigos and a swarm of infusoria*









*The non-BSE, non-Op*









*The non-BSEs*









*The BSE*









Temujin is back in the spawn tank; I've upgraded him to a 10 gallon to see if the extra space puts him in the mood to spawn. He has the small start to a bubble nest going this afternoon. I just released MissK in with him for the night; she is huge with eggs. I think I'm going to fish MissL out of the sorority and prep her as well. She's a little smaller but she has more flaws than the other yellow ladies. Eh, needs must. Go forth and make babies!

*Temujin's freckles*









*MissK doing her impression of the Goodyear blimp
*









Also, the red female HMPK has unclamped after 48h in the salt/acriflavine. I did a 50% water change, which will leave her at a half dose for another 48h. I'll probably leave her in QT for another 2 weeks to make sure everything has cleared up. All quiet on the fishy front.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, MissJ's prime directive seems to be "Neuter the boys, and I'll bubble nest my own [email protected] eggs." whereas MissK's philosophy is a bit more simplistic: "Eggs are tasty! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM!" I'm not holding out for very many fry in this first Temujin x MissK spawn. However, he did wrap her a few times, and eggs were dropped. And dropped. And dropped. And dropped. And eaten (by MissK). Let's see if any hatch. Most of the "And dropped" eggs weren't fertilized, since MissK was leaking eggs like a sieve, but Temujin picked them up anyways. I'm not going to remove any eggs this go around. I think I'll be lucky to get any fry at all in this attempt!










Going to link this out to the gold breeding thread: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=505506



Zhylis said:


> Presence of yellow iridescence was originally identified by Leo Buss, Yale University. Published an article in FAMA, November 2005 magazine. First to name the trait "no metallic spread".
> 
> (Sorry not Khai, it was Khoo.) Yellow iridescence work recently confirmed and expanded by Phrang lab in published paper: _Khoo G. , Lim T.M. and Phang V.P.E. (2014). Cellular basis of metallic iridescence in the Siamese fighting fish, Betta splendens . The Israeli Journal of Aquaculture_. They show size and angle affect color of iridescence link here.
> 
> ...





Zhylis said:


> Combine all this information together:
> 1. Buss showed that long fin _spendens_ originally carried two iridescence: blue and yellow.
> 2. Long fin _splendens_ were later selectively bred for blue colors, therefore lost yellow iridescence.
> 3. Then, several groups breed _splendens_ to wild _imbellis _or _mahachai _and produce metallic or dragon, indicate a new trait was brought in.
> ...


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Hey getting it on takes a lot of energy, what better than an 'omelet' to recharge the batteries?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Bad AA! No encouraging the NOM-ing of tasty eggs! =P

Well, I can't see diddly squat in the bubble nest. I'd swear it was empty, but Temujin is insisting that here there be eggs. He's focusing his energy on that mound of bubbles in the back. I'm just hoping there are at least some viable fry. Even 5-6 fry would make me happy. I tried to re-introduce MissK to see if he would resume the courtship, but he was firmly set on defending the nest. Ended up pulling MissK out after 30 min. Guess we'll see what happens in the next 48 h. Worse case scenario, there's a second huge cold front rolling through Ohio on Friday. I might be able to trigger another spawn attempt between these two...










On the derpier side of things, apparently the red female HMPK had a case of velvet. But before I knew that, I did a round of water changes. And stupidly used the same tubing. DERP DERP! Mini-Ezra and four other tanks upstairs are now being treated for velvet. I know Mini-Ezra has it; the other four tanks look OK, but they're getting treated anyways. This is what happens when you get the urge to save some energy. Grrrr. There won't be enough time to get Mini-Ezra through treatment and into a spawn tank before the next front passes over. Going to have to put a hold on crossing him with Mini-Red.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Whoops thats no good! Best to do qt tanks last.. but I'm just as bad, I use 1 hose for all my siphoning and change the siphon head based on tank size. The most I do to prevent cross contamination is wait a day between water changing tanks with algae issues and those that do not.. not much for protection >.>'' I think I might dig up and bleach clean the other hose.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Most of my fish stuff is kept in the basement, but the betta QT tanks are on the second floor since I like to keep an eye on them. Then I set up some breeding tanks in the home office down the hall. Didn't feel like tromping up and down two flights of stairs to get the regular siphon, so I was like "Gee, the HMPKs have been healthy so far; I'll just use the upstairs QT hose to do a water change on the breeder tanks." DOH! Bring forth the bleach!

In other news, Temujin was being a complete faker with the bubble nest. No eggs nor tails in sight. Since he was being so territorial about it, I returned him and MissK to their regular tanks... And then promptly plopped the red male HMPK and the orange female into the cleaned breeding tank (currently separated). ^.^ Let's see what happens. 

*Orange: ~Nyah nyah~
Red: Gonna getcha! *BONK!*
Orange: No, no you're not. =P
*









Here's the first of the Temujin x MissJ spawn to be jarred. Female cambo with a light layer of opaque and metallic blue iridescence. She's ~1 inch body length, a massive food hog, and alpha female. So now she's off in her own 1 gallon for now. I may see if I can introduce her into the sorority in the basement. 

*Teenage angsty eyeroll
*









*Her coloring really changes depending on the light.
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Today may be the last huzzah for my dear Stumpy. She's the last survivor of a school of 8 _Syno. multipunctatis_, named thusly because she ended up on the wrong end of a pair of mating _Ps. zebra. _Otherwise known as the cuckoo catfish, multis spawn by sneaking into the rocky depressions formed by courting mbuna and dropping their eggs as the cichlids spawn. The mouth-brooding cichlids take up the multi eggs, which hatch earlier and prey on the few cichlid eggs/fry. Poor Stumpy got a little too close to a mating pair, and the male zebra snapped Stumpy's dorsal clean off. The first bony rays regenerated, but there was too much damage to the other rays, which never grew back. 

*Multis are my favorite of the synos. Beautiful color/pattern and a max length of 6".*









*Look at that face!
*









But that all occurred in Stumpy's heyday. Fast forward 15 years, and old Stumpy is feeling her years. Her dramatic white markings have faded. She's acting disoriented and having problems swimming. I moved her to a 10 gallon upstairs with some hides, so she'll have a bit of peace and quiet away from the zippy, little fish in the community tank. EDIT: After counting back to the day I got her, I just realized she can legally drink; she's at least 21 years old! 5 years to reach sexual maturity + 1 year when she lost her dorsal + 15 years to reach 2015. Cracking one open for you, Stumpy!

The bettas in the adjacent tank are all like: :shock: | :shock: | :shock: 

*A brief peak under her skirt.
*









She's normally quite plump, but she's been pretty slim for the past couple years. Here you can see the anus and below that the vent with itty bitty papilla. A male would have larger, more noticeable papilla.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Still stuck at home, so I've been spending time with the fishies. Of course, while doing another set of water changes, I accidentally dropped a LED light into the tank. DERP DERP! Well, since it was either already dead, dying, or salvage, I decided to tear it down and try for salvage.

So here's the innards of a MarineLand 11" LED light (which incidentally is the perfect length for a 2.5 gallon). It's pretty basic actually. Top cover with a switch; plastic-coated circuit board with LEDs, a switch, and a power jack; and bottom cover, which is held on by 6 screws. A #1 Phillips screwdriver aided by pair of pliers for torque was sufficient to gently remove the screws.










The circuit board is held in place by six plastic pegs. The tops of the pegs were melted slightly to secure the board, but a pair of (repurposed) manicure scissors were handy in trimming away the melted plastic. A daub of glue was applied to one end, but a flathead screwdriver was enough to break the seal.










Everything was dried off, wires were checked, and the transformer was plugged into the socket. Flip the switch on the board, and let there be light! Everything looks good here. Between quickly unplugging the light and the plastic coating on the LED side of the circuit board, none of the wiring was fried. No shorts, no sparks, and all LEDs accounted for!










Got everything back together. The light lives to see another water change.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Glad the LED made it!
Is Ms.Orange and Mr Red together yet or still separated via the 'pesky invisible barrier'?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Glad the LED made it!
> Is Ms.Orange and Mr Red together yet or still separated via the 'pesky invisible barrier'?


So happy about the LED surviving! Also, I finally shelled out for the Finnex Planted+; the buzzing from my fluorescent hood is about to drive me batty. Just waiting on Amazon to deliver it now; I can't wait! Did a bit of tank clean up, and my crypts are going through a slight melt because of it... grumble, crypts, grumble.

Red and Orange are in the tank sans invisible force field now! No signs of a bubble nest, and Orange is still maintaining her sleek, trim figure. Although, I can clearly see eggs in her ovaries. She's just not blimp-like, which is how the yellow girls usually get when they're ready for sexy times. Well, we're getting another cold front rolling through this weekend... we'll see if anything happens!










So Stumpy has recovered and is back in her usual hangout. Whew! I found out part of the problem, while I was in the hospital, my parents topped off her tank with some distilled water. The TDS dropped enough to stress her out, which led to her weird behavior >.< Rift Lakes: those fish LOVE their liquid rock. And Lake Tanganyika fish are the worst! If the water isn't dang near crunchy, they're not happy. Especially if they're F0 through F2. Once you get further down the generations, they're more easily acclimated to regular water parameters. 

I've had good luck in these ranges. Just remember stability is equally important!
pH: 8.0-9.4 
GH: 250-350 ppm 
KH: 200-250 ppm 

*Stumpy in her favorite hide. That rock cost me an arm and both legs!
*Photobomb by one of the five female harlequin rasboras.









*Here's the Squad. (Five male Congo tetras)
*









*Close up on one of the boys.
*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Lol "crunchy" water. Wow I thought i had hard water, but nowhere near that range. Love how the camera focused on the photo-bomber instead of the intended target.
Also as a side note, I don't know if they're still available but a week or so back someone was getting rid of their all female school of congo tetras (they wanted males for the flashy-ness and got real unlucky-0 males) on another forum. If you are interested in adding some females I'll pm you their contact info .


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Also as a side note, I don't know if they're still available but a week or so back someone was getting rid of their all female school of congo tetras (they wanted males for the flashy-ness and got real unlucky-0 males) on another forum. If you are interested in adding some females I'll pm you their contact info .


ROFL, thanks but no thanks AA! :lol: That tank was set up specifically so that absolutely no one could pop out any little babies. The 12 female Congos were sold off with the majority of my other breeders when I downsized. Perhaps another day... Eventually, I'll go back to big tanks and rebuild my swarm o' synos. /plays Flight of the Valkyries


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Since I'm on the topic of catfish, here's the rest of the troops:
*
A pair of panda cories (C. panda) goofing off
*Yes, I need to build them a shoal. It's just ridiculously difficult to find healthy pandas. No way am I going to risk my babies with LPS cories. Not even WITH a month-long QT!









*A tetrad of fairy cories **(C. atropersonatus)** chilling 
*I wouldn't mind 2-3 more of these to round out the group. Still hunting.









*Close up on the fairy cories
*









*And nerites, just because they were posing!
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

So there were bubblenests aplenty this weekend, but no sucessful spawns. The red HMs just didn't want to do it, even though Mini-Red was near bursting with eggs. Apparently Red and Orange did wrap, but I missed it and one or both of them ate all the eggs. ...Yeesh, virgins. Orange has slimmed down again, not that she got really bulky at all. I'll condition these two again and try again in a couple weeks. 

Currently trying to stimulate Temujin into a territorial fit of rage so that he blows a bubble nest. He isn't responding to the usual triggers, so I'm hoping Napoleon will get him moving. 

*Look at those bubbles. Clearly I'm trying to breed the wrong male.
*




At this point, I'm really tempted to switch out males in favor of Napoleon. He blew all those bubbles within 5 min of hitting the water in the tub. The red female HMPK is somewhat eggy-ish. They (HMPKs) _really_ don't fatten up like female HMs. The only thing is she's pretty aggressive (about on par with MissJ) and slightly larger than Napoleon. Hrmm...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*So. Much. Rage.
*Yeah, this looks much better. Guess we're going with "salamander" (EE geno) x red in the near future.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Or we could do "salamander" x red now. Right now, as in now now. Because someone is a flipping impatient little bugger.

*Here's the hopeful pairing:
*









*Aaaaaaaand there's the nest.*









*And there's the girl. Loose in the tank.
*He has an entire 10 gallon tank, and he has to build the nest right on top of the driftwood. Seriously?









Napoleon is doing an excellent job of chasing her all over the tank, which is a relief. Well, starting the breeding timer. 72 hours to go...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Boom, eggs in just under 48 hours! Napoleon was trying to lure Marie over to his nest the entire morning, so sexy times were clearly in the making today. They started attempting to wrap at ~1:30 PM and picked up on the mechanics pretty darn fast. I'm seeing about 20-25 eggs per wrap at this point, so hopefully this will be a fertile spawn. Everything looks good so far! Here's some fuzzy, lo-res photos of the pair. I don't want get closer and risk disturbing them.

*That's a wrap!*









*And here come the eggs.
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Napoleon is still tending and defending the nest, so hopefully there are eggs among all those bubbles. By the time Napoleon chased Marie out from under the nest, there was an egg mass about the size of a quarter. Not the biggest spawn, but eggs definitely went in! I still feed my males while they're tending nest; so far, Nap's been easy to lure out to munch on daphnia and bloodworms. Temperature is fluctuating a little between 79-82, not sure I really like the NatGeo heater. The Tetra H10 is much more stable. Humidity in the tank is nice and high, and I'm leaving a clamp lamp on for him 24/7. Crossing my fingers for eyeballs and tails tomorrow afternoon!










Next up are the 8 surviving fry from the Temujin x MissJ spawn back in mid-June. They're a little past the 3 month mark now and right around 1 inch long. They're also at the nippy stage, so I'm starting to separate them out. If they were longfins, I'd be able to tell male from female, but I can't tell plakats apart... >.< I'm just going to jar everyone and sort them out later!

*Here's Chubs, pretty sure she's a she.*









*A second smaller cambo-based female(?)
*









*The Runt, possibly a dark-bodied red base
*









*Bigger Red, carrying much more Op, Bl, and NMS*









*A potential NR1-carrier, bit too colorful for my goals
*









*A second NR1-carrier, I'll see how this one grows out
*









*Cello-based metallic(?), keeping this one to grow out also
*









*...victory? Potential NR1 + NMS, still too much Op though
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Hrmm, a few hours earlier than expected, but there's eyeballs and tails. *Quick pic while Nap is eating some breakfast brine shrimp. There's ~21 tails in the frame so I'm estimating 150-200 fry? Let's see how many make the transition to free swimming.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh... snickers. At the end of the day, I've severely underestimated the fry count. A rough clustering estimate puts me closer to the 400+ mark on fry, and I'm leaning heavily on the "+". This may require breaking out the 30 gallon.

*There's an awful lot of tails up in those bubbles...
*









*Let's take a closer look: Oh. Crap.
*









*Maybe there's some reflections from the bubbles... Hmm, nope. Crap.
*









Well, I usually try for a small first spawn, just to get a rough idea of what the parents are carrying genetically. It's pretty easy to manage with virgin breeders; they're still figuring out how to wrap, which results in a low egg count as well as a low fertilization rate. Apparently Nap and Marie are precocious little babymakers. >.< ...If I'd known, I would have pulled half the nest. Whooooooooo, OK, Time to break out a bigger tank.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Seems like the NatGeo heater is set higher than any pre-set heater I've ever seen. Temperature has stabilized at 83°F on the nose, which others have observed as well. (Wish I'd known that before i bought it!) It *is* nice and compact, but I'd be curious how it does in a smaller tank (<2.5 gallon) as that's what it's recommended for. May have to this in a milk jug later. Currently, as a 10watt heater, it's having no issues heating ~5 gallons even at night. It does have a bigger temperature swing, which I don't like, ranging from 78°-83°F. But that may be deliberate since it's recommended for truly small tanks.

That said, the previous two spawns were at 80°F, and I'm definitely noticing an increased developmental/growth rate with just the 3° difference. Hatch time took ~40h instead of 48h. I'm already starting to see free swimming fry, although a good percentage are still vertical. Let's say about a 1:3 ratio. Suddenly the 24h hatch time and maturity at 3 months seems feasible. A summer spawn in Thailand would occur at ~90°F temperatures; crowded grow-out tanks would favor body growth over fin growth; jarring the higher quality males for the third month would trigger sexual maturity and the shift in testosterone would cause lengthening/maturation of the fins. I think... for the next spawn, I'll bring up an Ebo-Jager and try hatching at 87°F...

That said, since I'm seeing free-swimmers, I've added some NLS Fry and vinegar eels to the tank. Skipping the egg yolk this time, what with all the infusoria in the tank. In hindsight, I probably should have added the food last night. I may have lost some to starvation... Here's the ravening horde of eyeballs and tails! OM NOM NOM!

*Yum, infusoria!
*









*Poor Nap is still trying to fetch these guys back to the nest.
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Everyone who survived the hatch (currently a larger than expected number) is now horizontal and free-swimming. There is a very small number of sinkers; they're probably not long for this world. 

Normally, I'd pull the male at this point, but I decided to try the father-in method with this spawn. This cross is a side project and unrelated to the 24K gold project, so as cold-hearted as it sounds, it's not catastrophic if I FUBAR something and lose part/most of this spawn. 

With leaving Nap in with the fry, there's some interesting behaviors I've never seen before. First, Nap is definitely and deliberately mouthing the fry, usually 4-8 at a time. He'll slurp a few up, pump his gills a couple times, and spit them back out. /cue disgruntled looking fry. Second, if there's a disturbance, like a big fleshy hand delivering food to the tank, the nearby fry will mob around Nap's head. Sometimes they'll try to follow him around like a cloud of gnats. Luckily, Nap seems to be taking all this in stride. He doesn't seem to be eating anything that he shouldn't and is acting very paternal. Let's see how long this can continue...

*FLASH MOB!*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

That's adorable (the mini mouth brooding ad "eeek scary! daddy save us!!").


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> That's adorable (the mini mouth brooding ad "eeek scary! daddy save us!!").


I was definitely not expecting the mini-mob behavior! I didn't believe my eyes the first time. Now it's kind of humorous to watch it happen. The fry are not the most graceful of swimmers; they end up bumping into each other and Nap. Mosh pit!

That said, I think I'm seeing occasional flashes of predatory behavior from Nap. This is a bit nerve wracking. I mean I'm committed to the father-in method for the next two weeks. Either there are fry at the end or there aren't. But it's hard to go in, feed, and then turn right back around and walk away. There is a noticeable decrease in the number of fry at the surface, but I don't know if that's because they're spread out around the tank or if Nap is... snacking... If he is, it's a good thing that he's culling the swarm for me. I just hope Nap doesn't snap one day and decide to gorge himself silly. Ugh, resisting the temptation to snoop!
_________

So a question popped up about my method for feeding vinegar eels (VE). I think everyone agrees that it's a pain in the butt to separate the VE from the vinegar. There's lots of ways to do so, this is the way that's easiest for me:

I take my VE culture (2 liters of 1 part apple vinegar to 1 part distilled water) and pour enough to fill a small bottle up to the point where the neck starts to narrow and then (using a small dosage syringe) I layer about 0.5cm of pure water directly on top of the VE culture. It may take a bit of practice and steady hands, but the culture is denser than the water so you get two distinct layers. Because of the very small amount of water, you get a very concentrated wiggling mass of VE within 5min, which I can then pull out using the same syringe. Also, this allows me to harvest ~95% of the VE out of the vinegar, including the smallest worms. When I've gotten most of the VE out, I just pour the vinegar into a new bottle with a fresh piece of apple and let the culture regenerate. In case of contamination, I have the old culture in the original bottle, the culture I'm harvesting in a small bottle, and the regenerating culture in a new bottle. 

*Small bottle of VE with a new water layer.
*









*1min: VE start moving up.
*









*3min: More than enough to feed the fry. LUNCH TIME!*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, the fry have advanced to BBS now, although I'll keep offering vinegar eels (less) and NLS Fry (more). Interestingly, I notice a lot more fry eating the NLS Fry using the father-in method. They will actively seek out the powdered food right after I dust some into the tank, which I've rarely seen fry take to this young or this early. In the previous spawns, the fry either ignore it or it takes several weeks before they begrudgingly nibble on it. Of course, they still prefer food that moves, but it's a relief to have a dependable backup food. 

We're getting close to the end of Week 1 of the father-in method. It's been an interesting experience so far. I think the fry count is still in the 200-300 range... 

too... 

many... 

fry...
_______________________

On a happy note, AA's plant package arrived this afternoon! O.O There was a lot of vegetation in that box. Holy cow. There's nearly enough to choke a cow. MOO. You're the best, AA! The bettas adore their (temporary) top cover. I just finished getting everything roughly sorted out, dipped, and into containers or tanks. Hopefully I can transition them back to submersed growth without too much loss!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

The Nap x Marie spawn continues to grow, and Nap continues to cull the spawn for the weakest fry. It's not an obvious drop in numbers, just a slow and steady attrition as the days go by. He's definitely not an egg/fry eater, but I wonder if he would let more fry live in a larger tank, like a 20 long. It's not a hunger issue since he's still being fed daily, and it's not a predatory instinct as he's still mouthing and releasing fry. I think we're down to ~100 fry in the tank now. It's a little hard to estimate with all the java moss in there. Also, Nap has maintained his bubble nest throughout this process. I think it's more a territorial thing rather than a shelter-for-fry thing as the fry are clearly free-range now. 

I'm not sure how much longer I'm going to keep Nap in there; the original plan was father-in for 2 weeks after the hatch day. The remaining fry are ~0.75cm and eating well. Barring any homicidal tendencies on Nap's part, I'll plan to pull him out next Friday or if he culls down to 50 fry, whichever occurs first.
__________________________

As for the Temujin x MissJ spawn, all 8 survivors are growing well. The yellow bettas from this spawn are highly susceptible to velvet, much more than their red or cambo siblings in the same tank. They've gone off their feed three times now while the other betta are porking out, and each time it's been due to velvet. It's been an uphill battle since Day1 to keep these yellows alive! I'm wondering if that's what caused the early die off in the fry tank. I'll try 0.3% salinity in the tank the next time I spawn Temujin and see if that has any effect.

Here's the three NR1s that I plan to keep. None of them are great form-wise, but before I can work on form, I need to lock in the genetics for 24k gold. 

*BSE NR1b
*It's the second coming of MissJ, s/he got MissJ's attitude too... A bit heavier on the black, especially in the fins, but clearly expressing a thick, opaque yellow. S/he has that _NMS_ +/- shine under bright lights, which is good, as well as relatively little _Op_: mostly on the outer edges of the dorsal and anal fins. With the decrease in _Op_ though, there's a corresponding increase in blue iridescence: probably _bl_ from Temujin and _Bl _from MissJ. That's going to be a pain to clean up... 









*Platinum NR1
*A cambo-based platinum, s/he was originally a very nice gold/opaque color and then the blue and opaque really ramped up and overwhelmed the gold. Color-wise, s/he's very promising, crossing to a yellow to continue diluting out the_ Bl_ and _Op_. Out of the three siblings, I just really, really don't like her fins... NRRRRG. 









*Cellophane NR1
*(Yeah, again with the velvet. GRRR.) Cambo-based cello this time, no noticeable accumulations of _Op_, but s/he does have some minor flecks of _Bl/bl_ on the dorsal half and on the fins. Minimal amounts of _NMS_ as well, which brings up the question: Is the entire iridescence layer controlled by the _B. splendens spread iridescence_ (_Si_) gene or is _Si _a separate pathway from _NMS_? This one would be my preferred F1 to continue breeding, just need to get a handle on the velvet and then figure out gender...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, got the velvet under control on the NR1 kids; they're pigging out just like their red/cambo siblings now. Eat, my pretties, eat and grow big! They're all chowing down on anything that hits the water now: pellets, frozen foods, live food, and their favorite -> the sinking tabs for the cory cats. :-?

*CHOW TIME!*





Of course, shortly after I cleared out the velvet in the one tank, I realize the fry tank with the Nap x Marie spawn is heavily infested. I didn't notice at first because Nap was culling the weakened fry before I could get an eyeball on them. It wasn't until I was trying to get a tail count that I noticed some of the fry had small, white flecks on them. *GRRRRRRR* Ended up pulling Nap out and dosing the fry tank with acriflavine and malachite green. These two chemicals have a synergistic effect and is my go-to treatment for velvet. It's much less finicky than the copper-based treatments, and acriflavine doesn't build up in the tissue like some other meds can. All in all, a fairly gentle treatment for young fry. Hopefully some fry will recover...

*Crap. Little white specks of DOOOOOM!
*









Finally, this one has me a bit baffled. Temujin recently developed a swollen patch slightly above his nostrils. Today, it started hemorrhaging, which WTF? It looks more like an internal issue than an external, possibly bacterial, viral, or uni-cellular parasite. I've isolated him in a 1 gallon for now and started dosing kanamycin in the water. He's still eating, which is a positive. Hrmmm, this does not make me a happy panda. I hope he recovers...

*Swelling is obvious in profile*









*Here, you can see the hemorrhage
*


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Ugh, I hate velvet. It's so contagious and an infection can be difficult to spot early on, so it's so easy to spread from one tank to another. 

I'm so paranoid now, all one of my fish need to do is clamp their fins and lose some colour and I immediately have my torch out checking them for parasites. 

I wonder if Temujin just had some sort of injury that has become infected. I've had a few fish turn up with similar ailments and they seemed to make a good recovery, so hopefully Temujin is the same, especially with the added medication.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Heya LBF! >.< AAAARRRG VELVET! Yeah, it's like playing whack-a-mole when it gets into the system. Just when you think you've got a handle on it... I'm semi-lucky right now, it's only in the upstairs tanks, and I think I've got it locked down in three of those tanks. Just need to nuke them and keep it from escaping before the drugs kill it off. The basement tanks are clean, whew. Yeah, I'm starting to get paranoid myself. The minute one of the bettas doesn't eat, I'm reaching for the acriflavine!

It's a bi strange; I don't think Temujin was injured at the start. I didn't notice any scraped or missing scales in the beginning. Over a couple days, he just developed a swollen mass on his face. I remember inspecting him very closely early on because his topline was changing and I wanted to make sure it wasn't genetic or a tumor. It wasn't until that area started bleeding several days later that I started the antibiotics. I'm not sure what to make of the swelling, it's not really an ulcer or a tumor or lympho... Well, going to have to wait this one out. Let's see what happens. Crossing my fingers for a good recovery!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Hope your pretty boy pulls through and his handsome face/topline gets back to normal!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks, AA! By the by, the plants are doing well over here. The ludwigia is still losing leaves, but there's a lot of new buds on the submerged stems. The hygros, bacopa, anubias, and kawagoeanum doesn't seem phased in the least (so far), and the hydro is awesome! The reineckii and microsword are mightily displeased still so I left them floating for now. 

Sigh. Update on the Nap x Marie spawn: I lost most if not all of the salamander spawn to velvet. There *might* be a dozen fry left alive at this point. /headwall Never a good feeling to lose a spawn like that. I already bleached the tank down and set it up as a grow-out for the Temujin x MissJ kiddies, which means it's time to break another 10 gallon out of storage. The few remaining salamander fry are in a 2.5 gallon; we'll see if any can pull through. They're pretty weak though. I think I'm going to respawn Nap and Marie; I really like the salamander coloration.

In happier news, Temujin's schnoz bump has stopped hemorrhaging and has significantly decreased. It still looks a little weird texture-wise, but I think he's in the clear now. *knock on wood* 









Haven't mentioned the mini-reds in a while. Mini-red (the female) is doing very well in the sorority tank; she has a lovely red/dark bodied coloration. She's ridiculously zippy as well. I tried to get a photo of her for nearly half an hour before giving up. >.< If/when I decide to spawn her, I'll get an updated photo. Mini-Ezra decided to follow Ezra's lead and turned into a buttmuncher. He was originally in a 3-way divided 10 gallon, but I've shifted him into a 1 gallon with a lot of topcover to see if that helps. He's still stubbornly wrecking his tail. He'll actually curl himself against the gravel just to be able to get at his tail. STOP THAT!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry to hear you lost the spawn/the majority of the spawn to velvet. Bettas seem to be able to cope with velvet better than other species of fish, but it really does hit young fish hard. 

At least Temujin is doing better. I swear, fish and their mysterious maladies! 

I hate fin biting. Reason I could never have another long finned male again. It just looks so ugly, and even when it grows back, it's usually never as nice.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Now that I've kept HMPKs, I'm a convert for life! Holy cow, halfmoons are a PITA. Just trying to keep all those fins perfect is impossible! Drag the anal fin through the substrate? Oops! Broken rays. Any sort of stress? OM NOM NOM, tailmuncher. Too much exercise? Blown fins. Not enough exercise? Poor spread. You literally need to keep them in an empty glass cube, which... I'm just not comfortable doing to a living animal.

I love HMPKs. 
______________________

Hmmm, so far, I've prevented a full sized spawn from occurring, whether by pulling eggs from the nest, using virgin breeders, or using the father-in method. My reasons for doing this are two-fold: 1.) because I want to know the genotype of my fish before I commit resources for 100+ fry and 2.) because there is a pretty nasty learning curve in growing out betta fry. Professional breeders can get their spawns to hit maturity by 3.5-4 months. And some of those "fry" reach 2 inches in body size, not including tail! 

...I'm nowhere near that growth rate. And growth rate affects size at maturity. From my first spawn, the mini-reds are just that: mini. Well, they're on the small side of average with a body length of 1.5 inches. About the size of Tamerlane, and I considered him stunted. From the gold spawn, the kids are comparable except for Chubs, who ate his way to double the size of his siblings. So, if we go by this chart:









I'm actually doing well for the first 4 weeks, but when the fry hit the 1/2 inch mark, their growth slows way the ^@#$ down. I still see growth spurts, but nothing like this. So I'm falling behind during the transition from microworms/BBS to frozen daphnia/pellets and never really catching up as the fry mature. Temperature seems to be a big factor, as seen in the salamander spawn before the velvet infestation. Hatching and grow out seems to go faster at temperatures closer to 90°F rather than 80°F. Time to bring out the expensive heaters for the next spawn. Really stuffing the fry also has a large effect, as observed by Chub's growth rate. I've restarted my grindal worm cultures to prolong the time on live food before switching to frozen/pellet, which should help with the stuffed bellies part. Grindal's are also supposedly high in fat and protein, which should boost growth significantly. Also, gut loading FTW! This is a tricky line to balance, since too much fat and protein in adult fish leads to fatty liver and pre-mature death. Of course, between the higher temps and richer foods, water quality is going to be crucial as that will rapidly degrade under these conditions.

Hrmm, betta breeding: unexpectedly complex. Interesting.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Welp, the war on velvet is on it's last front. My most heavily planted 10 gallon is the last holdout. Saw some cysts forming on the red HMPK and the baby yellow gold, and a fairy cory was flashing this morning. They haven't gone off their food yet, so I'm hoping I caught it at the beginning of a cycle. Just did a complete teardown and replant to remove as much organics and free-swimming parasites as possible. Currently treating with the first dose of acriflavine. (I've gone through so much of this stuff this month >.< I really should just shell out for a bottle of the pure stuff. Grr.) 

(Side note: AA, your ludwigia are BEASTS. So much new growth; I don't know what to do with them all!)

*The Last Tank
*









I've had the new Finnex Planted+ 24/7 on this tank for a little over a month now. It's pretty awesome. It may be a "bells & whistle" feature, but I really like the 24/7 option. Also, a huge upgrade in PAR over my previous full-spectrum fluorescent light. The older Planted+ is still the better plant light since it specifically uses 660nm LEDs instead of the basic red, but... 24/7 option! Back of the envelope calculations suggest I'm getting ~60 PAR on max, call it about 7 hours of >40 PAR using the 24/7 option, which puts me firmly in the medium/high range on light. I've gone back to a regular schedule of dosing ferts, iron, and glut. Minor issues with a diatom outbreak but otherwise no algae problems. The nerites are very active and eating little snail trails on the glass.

*Temujin's Sad Face: Pre-dosing
*









While I was at Petsmart picking up more acriflavine, I did swing past their tissue culture plants. Rather impressed with the selection! Picked up a package of downoi (_Pogostemon helferi_), _Rotala rotundifolia_, and a windelov java fern. The I was able to separate the downoi into 9 healthy nodes and about a dozen fragments. The rotala naturally were in 5 plantlets; I'll grow them out before separating them further. Let's see how well they transition to submerged growth...









*Baby gold checking out the downoi.
*









The six other baby golds and Chubs are all doing well and velvet-free. Chubs was originally a very distinct Cambodian, but he's really starting to redden up. He's still pearl colored, but in the right light, he turns this very nice pink color. I've had to move him into solitary since he was very aggressive in Stumpy's 20 gallon. So he's back upstairs in a planted 1 gallon. Little brat!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sell the clippings! (once treatments are done) Glad they're growing like mad for you ^^ Hope the other stuff finishes being turds about transitioning to submerged life soon.
I love my downoi such a cool leaf shape on it.. half tempted to rip out the rest of the forground plants in my 10g and spread it out.. but not quite set on that yet.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh man, >.< I didn't even bother with aquascaping. My only goal was "GIT IT IN THE TANK!" It's a mess in there. An awesome green leafy mess. The bettas are loving it! Everything has settled in and is sending out new buds, except the reinickii, which is just sitting there. I've never had much luck with it... any hints? =) I even fished out a couple pieces of Riccia, which is happily proliferating in a cup. 

I do have a couple mystery plants; could you help to ID them?
This one may have had a label but I forgot it... oops. Lots of shorter 1-3 inch stems. The closest I could find was emersed _Ludwigia arcuata_ but that wasn't on your list.









I figure these are a younger version of something with a label, they were in the assorted plants bag. 3-4 inch bare stems that have recently started round leaves. Imay need to wait until they grow bigger. No clue what they are!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

So the oodinium has finished up the parasitic phase; I can't see any more spots on the fish. Now it's just a waiting game as the little bastards multiply in their cysts. I'll maintain a therapeutic dose of acriflavine in the tank for the next two weeks in order to nuke them as they reach the free-swimming stage. The rest of the tanks are clean, so hopefully this will be the last of them!

In other news, it's feeding time! Here's six of Temujin's kiddies; they keep growing, a bit slower now, but still growing. They're still on frozen foods and NLS small fish. Today is daphnia day and looking somewhat snowy in the tank.





And of course, Chubs is still in solitary. Since I had leftover grindals, he got to finish them off for me. They're a little small for him now. I really ought to get some blackworms, but they are such a dirty worm. Too much risk of bacterial contamination... bleeeech. I probably ought to take him to lab and see if anyone wants to adopt him; he's still technically a juvenile, but he'll start maturing soon.





Chubs has also started blowing bubble nests. Little does he know, it's water-change day. Ruh-oh!









The only one missing is No. 7, the cellophane/yellow male. I'd moved him into the planted 10 gallon before I knew it had velvet, which he promptly caught from the red HMPK in the adjacent section. >.< At least he's doing well now.

The plants don't seem phased by the acriflavine so far. Everything is growing well, although I don't know how well simpler plants like mosses and alga would deal with acriflavine. Starting to see some stem rot in the downoi, which is to be expected when transplanting them from the agar into the tank substrate. As long as the tips continue to grow...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

For the sake of completion, here's No. 7, the cellophane/yellow male. I've got him in another 1 gallon for now, and once I'm sure he's oodinium-free, I'll pop him back in with the rest of Temujin's kids. I'm really liking the way his color is developing. It's a weak yellow but definitely yellow, not cellophane. And he has a lovely metallic shimmer. Regardless of how his form turns out, I'll use him in a sibling cross to hopefully get a NMS NR1B betta. 

The question now is the future F1 sibling cross: cross him to the BSE metallic yellow, the BSE metallic red, or the platinum yellow? Pros and cons to each approach. Using the red will side-step the potential yellow lethal phenotype while still having good odds of producing some yellow fry. The BSE yellow is a much stronger yellow, which is the direction I want to breed towards. And the platinum would be the least favorable due to the comparatively larger amount of opaque being expressed.

Then the next question becomes: backcross to MissJ for the yellow or outcross to a new yellow to bring in more yellow genes and improve form? Hrmmmmm. Still no Senate yellows with good form; I figure I've got 6-8 months to find one. Though the MN Betta Shop did get 4-5 decent yellows in two shipments ago. I just can't get a good eyeball on their form.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Looks like No.7 is also feeling territorial and has started blowing bubbles as well. He's much too aggressive to put back into the 10 gallon grow-out now; he got everyone riled up when I tried. So now *he's* banished to Stumpy's 20 gallon to finish maturing. 









...which has also kicked my genetic plotting into high gear. So No.7 looks like a yellow cambo with minimal opaque and metallic + blue. 









Normally, I'd want to pair him with a BSE extended red sibling, but the rest of the survivors are carrying more opaque and blue than I really want. So I'm thinking of risking a sibling cross with this BSE yellow (No.6), who is hopefully female. I still can't spot any ovaries in her, but everything else looks female to me. 









Yellow x yellow is probably going to result in an even weaker yellow, but this cross will regenerate gold (NMS +/+) while also regenerating steel (bl/bl) and giving a 6.25% of putting both gold and steel traits on the same fish. Going to need a big spawn on this one... Luckily, No.6 is also low in opaque. This should also return BSE to a heterozygous state. No.6 is also a carrier of cambo, so probably a 50/50 split for cambo and solid when crossing to No.7. These two should reach 5 months old by mid-December, so figure for a Christmas spawn... Then, I'll have until May to find a Senate yellow HMPK.

...which means now is the perfect time to start another spawn! Either retry the salamader cross with Nap and Marie or try the red x orange cross, which I still haven't managed to get them to pair up. Red is surprisingly laid back, especially for a red. Here's the little slacker lazing about on his new IAL.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, today and tomorrow are up in the 70°s and then we plummet into the 50°s just in time for the weekend, which is _absolutely exquisite _timing! I rather want to try another cross with Temujin, possibly with the female red HMPK. Temujin x yellow just isn't happening; the spawns are all duds. Time to shelve that idea and move on. Gold x red should be safe though. Alternatively, the male red HMPK with the female orange HMPK has been on the "to do" list for a couple months already with two failed spawns to date. And of course Nap x Marie has always been a side project.

*You know there's a front coming when...
*









*Red seems to favor the classic under-the-leaf nest.
*









*Temujin is more sneaky and prefers corners and floaters.
*









...I think I'm going to toss Temujin back into the spawn tank. What can I say? I have a thing for gold. Plus, if Temujin x red works out, then I can use the F1 to start an outcross line for future red x yellow crosses. Yessssssss...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Huh.

Well, then. 

Apparently, Orange (I really do need to name her) was not keen on waiting and has jumped her cup. She and Red are currently having a go at it in the main tank. (Awkward...) It looks to be a small spawn in any case, she's only dropping 6-10 eggs per wrap and they're wrapping very infrequently. I was just checking if they were ready to pair up for this weekend. (Clearly they were more than ready.) I guess I'll just let them carry on. I'm not sure if this will be a viable spawn, since there's still a half dose of acriflavine and malachite green in the tank, which I'm in the process of diluting out. And the tank is fully filled, planted, and has substrate. Doh.

In other news, Temujin is flirting with the female red HMPK but she's rather less than impressed at the moment. Perhaps tomorrow...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I decided to pull Orange out now; although she's still going under the nest to wrap, she's not dropping any more eggs. Luckily, she was still semi-stunned from the latest wrap, so it was a simple scoop with the net. Poor girl is pretty shredded; I've got her in a 1 gallon to recover. Goodness is she thin! Red is lurking under his IAL nest now. There seems to be a surprising number of eggs under there (about the size of a quarter), more than I'd originally guessed in any case. Let's see if any hatch.

*Aaaaand we're done.*









*Ooomph. Someone got shredded.*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Poor Nap was a day late and a dollar short to the bubble party, which is unusual. Lit his tank up under a bright light and discovered he's got a few speckles of velvet on his head. GRRRRRR! So the 2.5 gallon goes back under acriflavine. But at least the 10 gallon display _APPEARS _to be oodinium-free now, and I'm slowly diluting out the acriflavine/malachite green. Down to ~30%. I may just leave it there for a few more days. Just in case.

*Sorry Nap, no happy fun times for you. (The clamping is a clue that something's not right!)*









As for the Red x Orange spawn, the little sprogs have hatched but are not yet free-swimming. The one plus of Orange hopping her cup is that it's much easier to take photos in the main tank. Although the substrate is going to be a pain in the posterior with the fry. I guess this is going to be a Darwin spawn. We'll quickly sort out which fry are too stupid to live...

*Red's head and some fry*









*Fry in the water sprite
*









*A few hugging the IAL*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Zhylis said:


> I guess this is going to be a Darwin spawn. We'll quickly sort out which fry are too stupid to live...


I love reading your spawn log/commentary always amusing.
Gl with combating the velvet!
Also ugh hating the temp swings here, we got down to low 40s then is shots back up again... and its too humid to open the house up... I remember as a kid by Halloween it was 30s-40s and all the trees had drooped 95%+ of their leaves (making kids fill leaf bags printed like carved pumpkins was a big thing to get them to do yard work back then.."Got to fill at least 3 pumpkin leaf bags before we decorate for Halloween."). These days it takes most of winter for them to get bare by me which means not enough leaves for 1 bag by Halloween and having to do multiple baggings over several months.. yay...=.= (sorry for the mini rant).


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

You may be pleasantly surprised just how many fry survive even with the substrate. All my wild betta tanks have substrate and I have never noticed it having an adverse effect on fry numbers when they are still with the father. Mine only tend to die off because I am stingy with my supplemental feeding. 

I'm battling velvet in two of my tanks (_*again*_) and OMG I swear I'm never keeping any sort of betta again once this lot cark it. It is so insidious. Just when you think you have it beaten it returns.

Good luck with Nap and his treatment.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh man, I hear you LBF. We should start a club, The Anti-Velvet Brigade. This is such a pain! I've had luck with a 14-day treatment, but some strains can have a ~30-day life cycle. I can't use copper in a planted tank, and I'm reluctant to keep re-dosing acriflavine for THIRTY DAYS. Gah! Time to keep an eye on all the tanks again, just in case I didn't nuke it all...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, spent the evening overhauling Stumpy's 20 gallon. I love her to bits, but she's really rough on the plants! It's a work in progress, but after dusting off some bits of lace rock, I think I'm finally happy with the hardscape. Pardon the dust, everything is still settling in!

*Where's Stumpy?*









I thought I had more bacopa stems to finish filling out the front left corner. I probably overlooked them somewhere. Eh, worse case, I'll top the ones in there once they get a little taller. I think I'll fill in the rest of the space with some hydro "Japan". I still need something in the back left as well, mumble mumble stem plant, mumble red. I have mad masses of ludwigia, both repens and palustris, but they're too short at the moment. I'm half tempted to get a sword, but it's tight quarters behind that rock. The water sprite and hygro is just acting as nitrogen sinks while I'm noodling around with the tank; I'll pull them out and toss 'em back in the fry tank when I'm done. Or maybe I'll top the hygro also and let it fill out the back right corner. Have to be a little careful; the heater's hidden back there.










I keep ignoring the crypts. They do so well with benign neglect, but UGH! I need to split that mess up. I'm starting to get some BBA on the leaf edges, clear signs it's time for a clean up! ...motivation low... Little bastards are probably going to melt afterwards. You can't see it, but the substrate is Eco-complete with a gravel cap. I kind of want add more Eco or switch completely... But I don't want to spend $20 for another bag. BAH-HUMBUG.

*Mass o' crypts.*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

I love the black smooth rocks you have in there.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm pretty sure I drooled a little and made grabby hands when I first saw them in the store. _*Must have, gimme gimme!*_ It's always fun when you find that one piece that sparks the idea for a new tank! (And slightly painful for the wallet, buuuuuuuuut.... Lol.) I wish I'd gotten more of them. They look amazing against a light substrate. In the original tank, I had the black stones on natural sand. I don't think I'd ever do a sand substrate again, unless it was < 10 gallons, but dang, it looked awesome!

Well, hold on to your hats! Here comes another cold front.

Glad to here you're feeling better, AA!

(Side note, do you keep _Rotala rotundifolia _or some other rotala?)


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Where did you get the stones? a lfs by you? home depot (someone mentioned mexican river stones on another forum.. they look similar)?

And thank you ^^


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Holy cow, that's what they are! YESSSSSSS! You're awesome, AA!* I'm going to have to see if I can get some more in bulk. I got them in the late 90's when I was working part-time at Petland. (The markup in price from wholesale to retail is RIDICULOUS. Go go employee discount!) They came in by accident with a shipment of bulk rock, but after that, I was never able to find them again. Hmmm, looks like I might have better luck checking landscape suppliers.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry mexican beach pebbles not river rock
(not my photo)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hmm, Home Depot has mexican beach pebbles but only in 1"-2". The ones I have are around 3"-4". They're just about the size of my palm. More like these: as seen on Amazon! 

Still, very cool! Now I know what they are; it's just a matter of finding a local supplier. May be a gardening store...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, I was hoping to lure Stumpy out using a slab of Repashy so I could get a couple photos of her. Yeah, nope. She made like an orca, nabbed the Repashy, and dragged it into the crypts to nom in peace. Or pieces rather. -.- Here's her eyeball, deep under the crypts. Mocking me. No photos for joo!









Well, on the plus side, I did buckle down and thin out the crypts. Pulled 3 well-developed plants out so the smaller ones could grow a bit. I could probably put together a pretty nice WYSIWYG low light/low tech plant package at this point. Hmmm... There's also two crypt mother plants that I'm going to have to split apart, probably this weekend when I have more time. Tossed a large water sprite into the back right corner; we'll see if it continues to grow or fragments into smaller plantlets. I'm OK with either outcome actually. Added about a dozen ludwigia repens stems to the back left corner too. Hopefully they'll root in and grow to fill the space. (Assuming Stumpy doesn't make like a bulldozer and uproot everything. Again.)

It's been a bit over a week for the little red/orange babies. Surprisingly, they're adapting well to the substrate. On the other hand, it's not like I can really see any bodies if any did Darwin themselves out of the gene pool... But, there are definitely at least 30 fat little fry that I can see; so there's probably at least 60 in the tank. They're currently on microworms and whatever they can hunt down in the tank, which is chock-o-block full of detritus worms, copepods, and other assorted critters that inhabit an established planted tank. 










I'm using a semi-father-in method. Since Red x Orange accidentally happened in a divided 10, I just let Red raise the spawn in the planted tank. Red is still in his section, but the other two are betta-less. Although he stopped maintaining his nest, Red is completely blasé about having the fry around. I haven't seen any sort of hunting behavior from Red, and the fry just swim through the craft mesh as they like. (I thought they would have all migrated out of Red's section, but noooooooo... Napoleon is a better father though; he actually tended to his swarm o' fry. As far as rearing the fry, Red pretty much popped them up to the surface when needed, but once they were free-swimming, he was like "Screw fatherhood. You kids are on your own now!" 

Photobomb by Red:
I may have seen 2-3 spots of velvet on one fry; I'm not sure. It could have been the light, but I dosed the tank anyways, just to be safe.









So far, I've been liking the father-in method. I haven't had any problems with post-spawning "depression" from the males. It may be because I've switched to plakats, which are less inbred (read: _way_ healthier) than halfmoons, but the males are transitioning from caring for fry to prepping for the next spawn much faster, more smoothly, and with less stress. I'm not entirely sure the fry grow faster or healthier using father-in, but they aren't being harmed or eaten. This may not work for all males, but so far, Temujin, Napoleon, and Red are all tolerant of fry swimming around up until the fry reach the 2 cm mark. Once the fry start sparring, then papa needs to come out.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh help... Rivers to Reefs had a large plant shipment come in yesterday. Like a moth to the flame, I headed over there today. Mmmmmmm, plants! I restrained myself... sort of... may be... not really. I restrained myself to 5 types of plants. Good enough! So here's the loot.

*Helanthium angustifolius "Vesuvius"* (Two and a half plantlets: ~4")
It looks like a vallisneria, but it's actually a chain sword. Pricy little bastards, but I'm glad I saw them. It should grow between 6"-12", and sends out runners along the substrate for propagation. It's a heavy root feeder, otherwise it's suppose to be easy to keep. Light, pH, and CO2 tolerant. Gorgeous plant and definitely a different look for the tank! They came out of a tank with an ich infestation, so I've currently got them quarantined in a jar with a dirt substrate for the next two weeks. 









*Marsilea crenata *(~6" rhizome)
I keeping looking for M. minuta but I finally caved and got the dwarf variety instead. I do have hydro "Japan" but it just doesn't grow as dense as the crenata. Aquatic fern >> pennywort on density of growth! Currently, it's in its emersed state and showing 4 lobes. Cute little darlings! I've got some floating, some submersed and all in different tanks and lighting. Supposedly, lower light may help maintain a multi-lobed clover look rather than the single lobe that forms under high light. This little bit is in a bare-bottom jar with a java moss wall until I figure out where to plant it.









*Rotala wallichi* (~12 6" stems)
This is going to look awesome or my filter is going to hate me. Either way, we'll all have fun! For various definitions of fun. I *know* the current light on Stumpy's 20 isn't bright enough for wallichi, but I don't have room under the 24/7 until I move out some plants. Of course, the correct answer is to get another LED light, right?! *cough* >.> ... <.< ... >.> On the plus side, they look awesome in the gap in the tank. Now I just need the ludwigia to grow up and fill in behind the wallichi. Better up the iron in this tank too...









*Hygro pinnatifida* (~6 10" stems)
It's currently in its emersed form. I'm predicting a lot of melting in my tanks for the near future... Eh, que será and all that jazz. This one's more of a creeping hygro, and supposedly, it can be tied to rock or driftwood like java fern. Once it transitions, I'll see what I have laying around. Definitely keeping this one under the 24/7 for high light. It should turn red after it transitions. (Probably going to have to up the potassium in all my tanks, too; my tiger hygro is starting to get pinholes.) It's got multiple buds, which I like to see, but I wish the cuttings had roots as well. I'm tempted to keep them emersed a little longer and dip the ends in IBA until roots develop.









*Crypt walkeri "lutea"*
I'm a sucker for crypts. I don't see lutea around here often, so I decided to snag this one. I'm curious if it's the green or the brown morph. I think it's also currently in its emersed form; the leaves are a little too rigid. Plus it's a crypt; there's a 110% chance it's going to melt regardless of what I do since it was just shipped in to the store, transported to my home, and plopped into one of my tanks.









While at Rivers to Reefs, I also managed to hit the jackpot on worms too. I've been looking for white worms (Enchytraeus albidus) as the next step after grindals. Luckily for me, David had just brought in his backup culture. SCORE! Since they weren't ready to sell to the public, I was gifted a starter for free. Thanks, guys!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

I love my Vesuvius in my high light 10g, its going nuts, its taller than the surface (over 10") so ti trails on the surface. It sent a single runner from the right side of the tank to the left to explore better lighting-I found it amusing. 
Also I've wanted to try pinnatifida for a long while! The other hygro I've had have been such potassium hogs though ugh. You'll have to tell me how that works out for you!
Btw my first batch of crypts never melted on me (though they were grown emersed ) so there's a tiny chance they'll make it.. but all my recent ones have been melt happy :c
Wish my lfs has decent plants, no joke 40%+ of the submerged greens are non aquatic =.= morons...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I can see why, AA! The Vesuvius are very unique; I can't wait for my little cuttings to grow larger. I'm out of potassium! How did this happen??? It's getting to the point where I'm seriously thinking of mixing my own NPK. The Flourish products are just getting too expensive with 40 gallons worth of tank to dose...

Sorry to hear about Magnus; he was such a character. SIP little buddy!

...I think I may have a lead on some rarer crypts. REFRESH. REFRESH.REFRESH. Guess I'll know in a few more days.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, the turkey has come and gone, most likely to reappear in the form of leftovers for the next three weeks... But the crypts still remain. Nothing like taking a break from family to go take a weedwhacker to a several thickets of crypts while in a food coma!

45 min later, half of the wendtii "green" are all done. Did a lot of heavy pruning on the leaves and roots. They're loosely anchored to hematite beads with cotton thread until I figure out what to do with them.









On to the undulatus "red"! I pulled half of them out of Stumpy's tank, just to thin the herd. I'm pretty sure I left 1/3 of their roots behind in the substrate; there were so many roots... They're not really "red" since I'm growing them under low light, but they have a darker, bronze color to the leaves. I think I'm going to move these guys under the 24/7. In high light, these should develop a lovely purplish-bronze color. The contrast is very striking when paired with the wendtii "green".









Speaking of the Finnex Planted+ 24/7... I noticed it was flickering a little. Closer inspection revealed that using it on an open top tank causes condensation to accumulate inside the plastic splash guard. Apparently Finnex does not recommend this type of usage (as noted in itty bitty, teenie weenie, fine print in their manual). *cough* 

Well, time to take a break from crypt whacking and save the LED. It's teardown time! This is going to end in one of two ways... 

So, there are two end caps on the 24/7: one leads to the power and the other leads to the IR sensor for the remote. Logically, the latter end is where the fun bits are probably located. So that's the end I'll open up. ^.^ May you live in interesting times.

Righto, plastic end cap looks to be held on by two screws. Where's my Phillips? 









Once the screws are out, the end cap wiggles easily, but there's a wedge-shaped guard that needs to be detached before you can remove the end cap. The guard is attached to the end cap by two clips. Gently pushing one clip inwards with a small flathead screwdriver is enough to disengage it. (I've skipped ahead slightly to show the clips. Normally, this guard is still attached to the light fixure.)









OK, so the end cap is detached from the guard. Now you can remove the end cap. It should slide down the cable, although there may be a bit of resistance from the rubber gasket.









Now you should see this. From top to bottom, you've got the wedge-shaped guard, which holds the circuit board in place. The guard is also slotted into the metal frame of the light fixture. (There was also a daub of glue holding the cable to the circuit board, which I removed.)









Next, GENTLY slide the circuit board out and down away from the guard. This will allow you to slide the guard off the metal frame.









With the guard out of the way, you can now remove the plastic splash guard. You may have to hold the circuit board out and down to keep it out of the way. Also, if you've got condensation on the inside of the splash guard, be CAREFUL and dry EVERYTHING before you turn the light on!









Hellooooo, circuit board! This is actually a pretty decent work for a mass produced product. The soldering is neat; nothing is really warped or bent. I'm pleasantly surprised!









Interestingly, unlike the Marineland LED from earlier, the Finnex is NOT coated. Meaning if any water gets in there, the probability of frying something is very very high. On the other hand, if you wanted to mod the LEDs like... oh say, replacing the standard reds with 660 nm *twirls imaginary mustache* Oh ho ho! Hrmmm, a project for another time?









Right, focus! Back on topic, I wiped the condensation off the splash guard and dried down the LEDs. I think I'll seal the edges of the splash guard with caulking or maybe plumbers tape might be better (read: easily removable). Hopefully that reduces or eliminates the condensation issue. Reassembled everything, minus the glue that held the cable to the circuit board. And hey presto, 24/7 is back in service sans flickering! 









Well, that was an interesting end to the night! Happy Turkey Day!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

More crypt love, although these aren't your typical Sri Lanka crypts. These are my Borneo jewels  My preciousessss...

Crypt ferruginea: two little babies with two little leaves. They're just starting to show their markings.









Crypt striolata: these are big enough that I'm going to fully submerse them once my Koralia nanos come in. Need moar flow!









Crypt 'Silver Queen': believed to be a natural hybrid found in the wild between Crypt auriculata x 'unknown'. Leaves have a gorgeous silver sheen and pink opalescent markings. These two just came in, and they did NOT travel well. Going to baby these two for a while.









Three Crypt affinis 'metallic red' should in the mail on Monday; and I'll be swapping for a Crypt nurii 'Pahang mutated' next Saturday. Looks like I'll be cranking out the blackwater from now on. Better price the RO water at Rivers to Reefs too; I just need enough to get this 10 gallon up and running.

Also, hellooooo from the Red x Orange babies! (I really need to get an updated photo. They're up to small grindals at this point!)


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Well I ordered those 3"-5" mexican beach pebbles you linked on amazon... [massive expletives deleted] seller sent me 1"-2.5" =.= only 2 rocks in the whole bag were 3", (non found that were larger) grrr


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Well I ordered those 3"-5" mexican beach pebbles you linked on amazon... [massive expletives deleted] seller sent me 1"-2.5" =.= only 2 rocks in the whole bag were 3", (non found that were larger) grrr


DOH! Can you get a refund? Or if the return shipping is a PITA, hold on to the smaller stones and use them as a contrast the larger stones you want to get. I was thinking the difference in sizes would look awesome in a 'scape. ^.^ I'm considering a hardscape based on those beach pebbles in my crypt tank...

In other news, WT-everliving-F happened to my tap water? I used to have high pH, crunchy water. It would break pH 8.2 and TDS 400 in the winter. Now it's winter, and the parameters read pH 6.8-7.0, GH ~120 ppm, and KH ~50 ppm. It's been pretty dry; Hoover Dam is low. Where did my crunchy water go? I like the change, my plants like the change, but... did we switch water plants or something??? :shock:


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Here's the crypt affinis 'metallic red'. These are young still; when they get older, those smooth leaves will become bullated. The leaves are a rusty green on top with wine-red undersides. I'm curious how much of the coloration is due to lighting, so I planted some in a high flow, dirted, low light tank and the rest is in a low flow, EC, high light tank. Under high light, those leaves should turn a dark red on the top. Let's see what happens...

















The wendtii 'green' and undulatus that I split earlier are starting to show signs of melt and new regrowth. I'll probably give them another week to stabilize and then organize some low light plant packages. The java moss is about to grow legs and crawl out of its tank, and the pygmy chain swords are big enough to send out runners. In other news, the wallichi I got a couple weeks ago has settled in nicely and is shooting upward. I've already had to trim multiple stems. Some stems are showing a green section. I'm not sure if that's from shipping stress and a bit of growth while at Rivers to Reefs or if I need to up my iron again. They're in the orange fry tank, which is doubling as a holding tank for the plants. The plant mass in there has easily tripled, and I've got some heavy feeders in there...









This is a pretty wild ludwigia: it's a hybrid cross between L. sphaerocarpa and possibly L. repens or L. palustris. It's has a big brute of a stem, and already throwing side shoots. Red is in love with this; it's his new favorite napping spot. I may have to take it away from him though. It's a bit big for the divided 10; proportionally, Stumpy's 20 would be a better fit, assuming I can get it to root before she does her bulldozer impression. (I ended up having to move the wallichi out after she kept uprooting them. Every. Single. Day.)









This nymphaea (as well as some java fern 'narrow') showed up as a tagalong with the crypts. Not 100% sure what it is; the leaves are a bit transparent from shipping stress, but they look very interesting. There may be a bit of speckling on the green leaves (not apparent in the photo). I'll have to wait for some new growth to get a better idea.









And finally, here's a couple of fat sprogs from the Red x Orange spawn. They're a hair under 4 weeks old and eating grindals currently, which make the cory cat clean-up crew very happy as well. They're right where they should be growth-wise. I think I wasn't increasing the size of their food fast enough in earlier spawns. Currently, week 1 is VE and MW, then start offering BBS on day 5. Week 2 is mainly BBS and some MW. Week 3 is small grindals and some BBS. Week 4 is grindals. Frozen daphnia are still too big at this point, but I want to feed something else in addition to the grindals. On the plus side, the grindals are being fed a mix of high protein cat food and NLS small fry, so hopefully some of those nutrients are being passed on to the fry. I'd offer golden pearls or something but I doubt they'd go for non-moving food at this age. I may try the Repashy again, maybe if I drop the grindals on top of a slab of Respashy...


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Aww lil fat babies.
I returned them (still waiting on the refund) at its price I would not keep it if it was not what I ordered. I'm happy I did not open the bag but measured rocks through the bag and sent them in the report for a refund/return-made returning easier as you can argue unused/unopened/undamaged. I'd found the 3-5"rocks through home depot (website only) and reviews shows the same thing-lot of people getting rocks that are too small so I guess I won't be getting any of these lovely big stones :c

As for water, weird change, hope nothing sensitive K.O.ed from water changes and different pH /hardness. Something weird is up with my tap-same pH and all but I cannot get readings with ammonia tests anymore (even when dosing for 2-8ppm o more ammonia it comes out 0ppm) ugh... give me your tap please! I don't want to have to start using DI/RO to know wt[censor] my nitrogen parmas are.

The un IDed nymphaea .. is it in a tank that gets dosed with Iron?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Nuts. Guess I'll wait until the spring before looking for more of the large stones. Maybe Home Depot will have some bags in store by then. Glad to hear you could get a refund though!

The tank is currently getting a low dose of Osmocote for NPK (slowly ramping up after 1 week at the new dose), Flourish tabs for the root feeders (replaced every 2 months), and two doses of Fluorish Excel and Iron (AM and PM). The plants are under a Finnex 24/7; at 12", they're at 75+ PAR for ~6-7 hours. The speckles aren't due to a deficiency or excess ferts, nor are the leaves deformed, holey, or "burnt". I think they're... natural...? The nymphaea is coloring up very fast and very nicely, currently a light green with brown speckles. I think it may end up green with red speckles. All the leaves show speckling, including the very new incoming leaves. The other odd thing is this nymphaea has no bulb. Looking at the roots, I'd almost say it propagates via runner/rhizome like a crypt!

Mature leaf









Newer leaf









Crown + roots









I saw that about your ammonia tests. I've never heard of anything like that! Off the top of my head, I have no idea what could be happening chemically to block the detection of the reagent. Basically Page 4 over here describes the common things that can interfere with a salicylate-based ammonia test. Alternatively, it's a two step process to get an ammonia reading: 1) ammonia reacts with Reagent 1 to form NH2Cl and then 2) NH2Cl reacts with a color-based indicator, which results in the yellow to blue color. I wonder if API could have forgotten to add one of the reagents during production?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hmmm, so I'm 99% sure that the Nymphaea that I got is a sp. "Dwarf", Santarem (undefined waterlily hybrid) and has the most adorable little white flowers imaginable. [See here: (in Japanese) Click me!] Originally from Brazil; imported to Japan in the late 00's; reached Russia in 2011 and then Europe a few years later; finally made it to the US via Erik Olson (GSAS) earlier this year, 2015. Green/tan leaves with red speckles and propagates via runners. Usually no taller than 8 cm, prefers soft water, high light, and rich substrate. I've got this baby in my EC tank directly under the 24/7. A new leaf is starting to emerge; I can't wait to see what color it is...

That said, I made the swap on Saturday and picked up my three Crypt nurii 'Pahang mutated'. 2-4 leaves on each plant; popped them into the high-flow tank with the rest of the crypts. I'm torn between keeping this a low light tank versus high. Maybe after the crypts get solidly rooted in... Anyways, 'Pahang mutated' is my third favorite crypt after 'Silver Queen' and ideii. These little guys haven't developed their red spots yet, but the striping is showing up nice and sharp!









I think the crypt 'Silver Queen' has finished melting. *DEEP sigh of relief* I've been a twitchy mess since I unpacked her; she went through a massive melt during shipping. I've got her potted up in laterite, and I'll add a bit of leaf mold/peat within the next couple days. I want to keep nutrients very lean until she roots in. The pot is submersed about an inch over the leaves and in a bit of current. Here's her newest leaf. Temujin is overseeing things, of course. (He's a big boy and a plakat, so I figured he'd appreciate an entire 10 gallon to himself.)









He's got a quartet of false bandit cories (C. melini) for company. They're about 1 inch currently, so I'm not concerned about space for the near future. At maturity, they'll need a 20 long or a 30, but that's a ways from now. And naturally, Temujin has to stick his fat head in the photos... (The water is murky due to the laterite; I'm slowly reducing that by filtration and water change. Just a matter of time.)
*Can I get the shot now?
*








*No? How about now?
*









Just for fun, here's Red being a snob about his L. sphaerocarpa hybrid. He's becoming very territorial about it, to the point where I had to remove the panda cories. He was very persistently stalking and attacking them. Full out kill attempts. (The pandas are now shoaling with the fairy cories.)









*A shellshocked panda cory.
*








*A fairy cory!
*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Ooo once your Nymphaea sp 'dwarf' spits out some runners could I buy one?
Gotta love the photobombing, seems my betta boys want nothing to do with being photographed... until I'm trying to take a photo of something else (scape/close up of plant) in the tank.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Ooo once your Nymphaea sp 'dwarf' spits out some runners could I buy one?
> Gotta love the photobombing, seems my betta boys want nothing to do with being photographed... until I'm trying to take a photo of something else (scape/close up of plant) in the tank.


Sure AA! I have no idea how fast this Nymphaea propagates, but I'll PM you the day that she splits off a daughter plantlet! The new leaf is coming in much redder around the edges; I really like the color. Maybe we can do a plant swap for a leaf or two of Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan'?

>.< OMG, Temujin's fat head. He has photobombed so many shots since I first got him... And I usually have autofocus on. Thank goodness for digital cameras!

So, Napoleon has been over his little oodinium infestation for a while now. He's actually been playing surrogate father-in for the Red x Orange spawn, since Red has the paternal instincts of a barracuda. That is to say, none. I'd even say he has negative parental instincts. Red isn't an egg-eater, but he's a male that needs to be pulled immediately when fry become free-swimming, otherwise they become tasty, tasty betta snacks. Red's spawn started with ~50 plus fry, not bad for a first spawn especially since Orange was so lean. From there, I think I lost about a dozen before I realized Red's snacking habits. Then, about 15 fry Darwin-ed themselves out of the gene pool due to substrate stupidity. (Normally, they'd be in a bare bottom spawn tank, but Orange really wanted to be out of her cup and under Red's nest during the introductory period, resulting in an oops!spawn in a planted tank.) So, we're at ~20 fry plus or minus a few.

In comparison, after watching Nap with three different spawns, I have no qualms at all about keeping him with fry. In a 10 gallon, he tends to cull down to a spawn size of 30-40 fry. I haven't kept him in past the 4 week mark, but he's equally tolerant of juvenile betta up until the point they start sparring, so technically, I suppose he could be a stay-in father. He may not have the best form, but he's an excellent breeder.

*Defending the kids from the predatory Red*









*Napoleon on babysitting duty (Week 4)
*









*The kids zipping around
*









I'm coming into betta breeding from two different backgrounds. The first being fancy goldfish, the second being Rift Lake cichlids. Both have very different goals. With goldfish, it's about manipulating the form: what new mutations can be developed in color, fin and body shape. Sure, there are standards, but the goal is to create. Goldfish are like dogs or horses in that a single species has been highly influenced (for better or worse) through selective breeding by humans. 

In contrast, breeding Rift Lake cichlids is more about preservation, maintaining the purity and health of a genetic line, especially in the event of habitat loss. Hybridization and mutation are not just heavily frowned upon but practically verboten. Each species, subspecies, even minute variations in fish from different locations need to be preserved, as well as instinctive behaviors like courtship, mouthbrooding, etc. A particular warning lies in introduction of the red zebra (_Metriaclima estherae_) to US aquaculture, where its popularity and limited importation resulted in massive inbreeding that led to the complete loss of blue coloration in the male and a pale orange-y color in the female, and unwanted behavior like egg-eating. This literally occurred across the entire country and is a problem even today. It's very unlikely to find a blue male _M. estherae_ in a LFS. (Although wild-caught red zebra can occasionally be imported again.) 

Betta breeding tends more towards the first goal: to create/manipulate. They were originally bred to enhance their size, strength, endurance, and aggression. Then, they were bred for the "fancy" variations. And then hybridized with _B. imbellis_, _B. mahachai_, and _B. smaragdina_. Coming from goldfish breeding, I'm not too fussed about the featherfins, extremely shortened bodies, etc. Personally, I won't breed for them; I don't like those variations. But I am curious what it would take to bring back more natural breeding and fry rearing behaviors. Frankly, most of the long finned betta act completely insane. The short finned plakats are much healthier all around. And, although the hybridization occurred multiple generations ago, there's still the possibility of hybrid vigor (heterosis) in the metallic lines. So, just how much selective breeding would it take to enhance good mating/parenting behavior? And how much is nature versus nurture?


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sure I'd be happy to do a plant trade with you ^^, but I'd recommend we wait till spring or non freezing temps to help ensure live arrival on both ends.
Interesting read about the fry rearing and hybridization. I find it amusing the non biological father is a better dad to the fry their their real sire. I look forward to seeing how the fry color up as they grow!
On a tangent what's in the black mesh 'box' in the right of the last photo? DIY breeder box or is that the pre-courtship female housing?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I've often wondered whether paternal instinct is something that is inherited. While my wild bettas tend to be great parents with very strong paternal/maternal instincts, I have had pairs where one or both fish were eating the eggs. These fish have always been moved on, and I've never attempted to hatch their eggs artificially. 

However, reading through the breeding section of this forum, it seems that in a great many spawns, the eggs are artificially hatched, or the father is removed once the eggs hatch, or as soon as the fry become free-swimming. Egg eating seems to happen quite frequently, and cannibalism of fry is also fairly common. 

Therefore, I wonder if the reason so many Betta splendens males are such poor parents, is because they are produced from fish that exhibit this same lack of paternal instinct. 

I would be interested to see what would happen if a breeder used _only_ males that were themselves produced by males with excellent parenting skills, in their breeding program. 

I think you definitely raise a very interesting point with your post.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> On a tangent what's in the black mesh 'box' in the right of the last photo? DIY breeder box or is that the pre-courtship female housing?


Ah, the little kiddies are starting to show dabs of red on caudal and anal fins. This will probably be a 100% red spawn but they'll be orange carriers. Although Orange's orange is kind of... fading/marbling on the body? Or she's a cambo orange. I thought she was a solid, but the intensity of her color changed since spawning.

The black mesh box is a general purpose DIY box that I use to introduce betta together for breeding or as a time out box for the sorority in the basement. Currently, Midas ('cause he's got just a touch of gold! *cackle*) from the Temujin x MissJ spawn is in The Box. 

As to why... nature versus nurture! Midas' parents are decent to excellent breeders, so I want to see if Midas is tolerant with fry. Temujin is moderately paternal though surprisingly infertile when paired with a yellow betta. I haven't left him with fry past the 1-week mark, mostly due to the small/infertile spawns, but he has no egg or fry-munching tendencies. He cleans fry and returns them to the nest. He also maintains and patrols around the nest, unlike Red. MissJ is ridiculously dominant but has excellent breeding instincts (once I found males that could breed her...) She could probably nest and care for a spawn by herself given past behavior.

So Midas was in The Box for the past week, acclimating to the presence of the fry and watching Nap interact with them. Midas hasn't matured to the point where Nap is puffing up at him, and most of the fry are large and zippy enough to be a difficult mouthful if he got a hold of one. Right now, Midas is actually loose in the tank with the fry, and I'm watching him like a hawk. Besides some curious nosing about, he's not stalking the fry. The fry are staying out of his way, but they're not hiding. Plus, everyone is stuffed to the gills on worms, so aggression is currently low. He'll go back in The Box at night though, no reason to tempt fate! So far, Midas' reactions are favorable, although he could change once puberty kicks in. 

Speaking of that. Holy cow, these yellows develop *MUCH* slower than any other spawn I've had. Unless something drastic happens, I'll have to delay the F1 sibling cross by at least a month until Midas matures. Luckily Midas is translucent; there's a clear absence of ovaries otherwise I'd think he was a she. The F1 BSE yellow female is bulking up with eggs; but Midas has yet to develop any distinctive male finnage. He has been bubblenesting though... I'm torn between just popping them into a spawn tank or waiting for Midas to actually *look* like a male. They're already 6 months old. He may just need a few weeks in a tank by himself...



LittleBettaFish said:


> However, reading through the breeding section of this forum, it seems that in a great many spawns, the eggs are artificially hatched, or the father is removed once the eggs hatch, or as soon as the fry become free-swimming. Egg eating seems to happen quite frequently, and cannibalism of fry is also fairly common.
> 
> Therefore, I wonder if the reason so many Betta splendens males are such poor parents, is because they are produced from fish that exhibit this same lack of paternal instinct.


I'm curious about the same thing, LBF! I also removed the male soon after the fry hatched during my first few spawns, mainly because that's what everyone else does. But after some thought, it's like stripping a mouth-brooding mbuna for the eggs in order to maximize the number of progeny. Sure, you get more fry. At the same time though, it abruptly terminates the brooding cycle in the adults and puts a lot of stress on the breeders. Plus, fry reared in isolation from mature fish... well, it doesn't work out well in elephants. Someone's got to maintain dominance otherwise it all goes to heck in a handbasket!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Mini update on Chubs. So it turns out Chubs inherited a set of long fin genes from MissJ, who is a F1 long fin/short fin hybrid herself. Going into the Temujin x MissJ cross, I knew this was going to crop up, possibly in up to half of the spawn. (Temujin, being a plakat, is homozygous for short fins; he can only give his kids short fins. MissJ is the wild card in the cross, she can give the kids either a long or short fins. 2 copies of short = plakat, 2 copies of long = HM or delta, and one copy of each = something in between) It's a trade off in order to bring in MissJ's lovely lovely yellow. The long fin genes are something that I'll just have to select against as I continue this line. It's also one of the reasons I keep waiting for Midas to hurry up and mature, so I can see whether he's a short fin plakat or a hybrid like his mama. The girls from this cross all look like plakats. If they have any long fin genes, it's too subtle for me to tell.

Up until the testosterone started flowing, Chubs looked like a plakat:









But when the hormones kicked in, his fins started to lengthen. Now, his fins are too long to be considered a plakat but too short to be considered a delta.









Nonetheless, he's an adorable pearl-ish pink color with white trim. I'll keep him as a pet, probably at home. He needs a lot of cover to feel comfortable. Apparently the 1 gallon was too open for him; Chubs has been clamping and nipping his fins for about a month until I set up a dirt-ed 2.5 gallon for him and literally filled it half full with ludwigia, rotala, and water sprite trimmings. It took him a couple days, but he's unclamped his fins and started bubblenesting in the 2.5.

Now if Midas would just man up already... It's been nearly 6 months. There are no ovaries. He must be a he! (He's also a speed demon. >.< I can't get him to hold still.)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh good grief. Apparently, long fin isn't the only thing Chubs inherited from MissJ. He got her attitude as well, every last drop. >.< I needed to do a water change on Red's tank, so I popped a divider in Chubs' 2.5 to temporarily put Red in there. I don't know how Chubs got past the divider, but he did. And I didn't notice. And Chubs completely annihilated Red's fins. I consider Red as my most aggressive betta, but pearly pink Chubs just curb stomped him... Red is tattered and Chubs doesn't have a mark on him. (Red's safely back in his tank with some Melafix now, poor guy.)

Side note for AA: This nymphaea sp. "dwarf" Santerum is definitely not shy! She's got 3 new leaves, a 3" runner, and it looks like a second one is on the way... I think I'll put down a little more osmocote.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, the Red x Orange spawn is into their 6th week with an average size of 0.6 inches. I'm about a week behind in development if I'm going off the growth chart. Part of that is probably because the tank is at a lower temp of 76°-77°F. They're in a planted tank rather than a spawn tank; I'd rather not cook my plants! I also ran low on grindals and ended up subbing with frozen beef heart and cyclops, which took several days of adjustment. Still they're growing well and swimming strongly against the flow from a TopFin internal filter 10. 

Earlier this week, I tried to remove Nap to prep him for the spawn tank. He had other ideas and staged a hunger strike. /facepalm After three days, I gave in and he's back riding herd on the Red x Orange spawn. This is the third spawn using him in the father-in method. The first was for 2 weeks, then 3 weeks, now it's been 6 weeks and counting. (And this spawn isn't even his!) Nap's happily eating, worms not fry, and patrolling the boundaries of the tank. Well, c'est la vie. 









While Nap was out of the tank, I let Midas out of The Box to mingle with the fry. He seems to have Temujin's attitude towards fry. He was a bit rowdy at first and gave chase to a few but settled down soon afterwards. He's got potential as a breeder if he stays like this when he matures. Since Nap is back in the tank, I moved Midas over to a 1 gallon. He's getting fed the same as the fry; hopefully he'll show some signs of maturing... His sibling BSE yellow sister is chock-a-block full of eggs, and I'd really like to get these two into a spawn tank before the year is up.

(Pardon the GSA!)

















For amusement, here's the development of Chubs, a red Cambodian with a metallic iridescence layer from the Temujin x MissJ spawn. I'd always heard that male Cambo turn red as they mature due to excessive outcrossing with extended red breeding lines. It's another thing to actually watch as this occurs. 

This is Baby Chubs. He was always the fattest fry in the spawn and first one to color up.









Toddler Chubs. Typical Cambo pattern, nothing surprising here.









Kiddie Chubs. The iridescence really kicks in now, but he's still got that classic Cambo color.









Tweenie Chubs. He's starting to redden up in the body.









Teenage Chubs again. Practically red now, which does interesting things with the opaque, blue, and gold in his iridescence layer. He's PINK!









Chubs hits puberty. The long fin genes he got from MissJ kick on. He's very pink now.









Mature Chubs. He got in an accidental fight with Red and took a few nips to the tail. (Don't ask how Red looks.) Otherwise, the red has really solidified. He looks nothing like a Cambo now! The only clue that he is one is the incomplete red color on his head.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Haha hunger strike to get back n with the kids, nice.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I think Midas is finally starting to mature. He's certainly huffing and puffing at Red at the moment. And his ventrals and anal fins have started to lengthen. Based on the shape of his dorsal, I think he'll stay a HMPK. Although it's early days still!

On the plus side, I think he's bl/bl (steel) and nms/+ (metallic) with very little opaque and just a faint speckling of BSE. On the minus side, he's a really weak yellow. From a genetic standpoint, I should breed him to a red sibling rather than the yellow sibling that I originally wanted. The problem is the BSE red girl brings in a lot more blue and opaque compared to the yellow sib. Sigh. I guess save the BSE yellow sib for the F2 cross.

















As far as form, I love his dorsal. Lovely long rays in front and a nice aggressive forward thrust. No clue where that was hiding, but YUM! His tail is not bad either; right now he's a mix of 4-8 rays. Have to wait and see what the end count will be. The outer rays will need work of course, but he's easily hitting a nice 180° with a broad peduncle and deep body. As far as negatives, his ventrals are a hot mess. No clue what happened there, but WOOF. (At least they're very broad and full? Chubs has very full ventrals as well. Bit of a split tip but otherwise nice.) His anal isn't going to form a good point either. Too much branching there, resulting in a broad rounded tip. 

*Noooooo ooooooovaries!*









Welp. It's safe to say he's a boy (and staying a boy) at this point. If he blows another bubble nest in the next 48 h, I'm going to pop him into a spawn tank with the BSE red girl. May be a Christmas spawn after all. This next spawn is a bit nerve-wracking. Theoretically, I know what should happen with the genetics. The reality... well, Murphy is a [censored]. Let's see what happens!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

So... Midas made a bubble nest, therefore I plopped him into a 2.5 gallon to set up for a first spawn. For young virgin males, I've had better luck in smaller tanks, rather than using half-filled 10 gallon tanks. Focus, babies, focus! He's claimed the right side and built a fresh bubblenest among the floating ludwigia stems this afternoon.

After some thought, I decided to pair him up with the female red HMPK from The Betta Shop (AKA Marie). I was planning to pair her up with Napoleon again, but he's still pretty fixated on the Red's fry. This works out pretty well actually. She's an experienced breeder at this point, and she's full of eggs. 

Additionally, no matter which female I pair with Midas, I'm going to need to do a second spawn, either to clean-up blue and opaque or to regain homozygosity of gold and yellow. With the potential F1 sibling crosses, breeding to the BSE yellow runs the risk of low fertility and even weaker yellows so too much risk for not enough reward. The BSE red would be a genetically better match and I would have a good chance of regaining NMS/NMS (AKA gold) and yellow. But, then I'd have a heck of a time cleaning out the extra blue and opaque out of the resulting fry. 

So if I'm going to commit to a yellow x red line in order to create 24K gold, then [censored] it, let's start as we mean to go on. The best option is actually to outcross a clean red HMPK. Assuming Marie doesn't carry NMS (which I'm not 100% sure that she doesn't) then half of this spawn should be NMS/+ just like Midas. I'm pretty sure I can track NMS by phenotype. Hopefully, it's a single locus genotype like blue iridescence. Midas is pretty clean of opaque, there's just the blue iridescence that needs to be cleaned up or recombined into steel (bl/bl). I'm most likely going to get a mix of reds, cambo, and cello. If I'm phenomenally lucky, Marie is carrying yellow. If not, well that's the F3 cross!

I've just removed the divider, and Midas seems to be doing well in chasing/flirting with Marie. Marie seems to be somewhere between neutral and interested. We'll see how things progress tomorrow...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Dear Napoleon,

You are an excellent brooder of fry. But the babies no longer need your attentions, and I want you to make more babies to carry on your excellent paternal instincts. Kindly allow yourself to be removed from the Red x Orange fry and placed in the spawning tank for the purposes of making more babies.

Sincerely, 
Management


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Hahaha, oh, Napoleon... I love that fish!

I have been lurking your journal for a bit now (don't think I posted here before, but my memory is horrible) and it's super interesting. I love seeing all the pairs and spawns. The journal really documents your thought process and how you go about choosing what to breed and the projections and everything... It seems like a more "scientific" approach and is really well-thought out.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Fenghuang said:


> Hahaha, oh, Napoleon... I love that fish!
> 
> I have been lurking your journal for a bit now (don't think I posted here before, but my memory is horrible) and it's super interesting. I love seeing all the pairs and spawns. The journal really documents your thought process and how you go about choosing what to breed and the projections and everything... It seems like a more "scientific" approach and is really well-thought out.


Thanks! It's been both funny and interesting to look back on previous predictions and thoughts, just to see how close (or not!) the theory is to the reality. And as a record of how ideas change. I never would have considered father-in as my favorite breeding method at the start of this journal! Aaaaah Napoleon. To think I almost didn't take him home... He is a darling =)

I did finally pry Napoleon out of the planted tank. The fry are starting to spar, and I noticed him flaring at several fry. My first reaction was to grab a net and pop him out ASAP, but... In hindsight, I don't think it was an aggression thing. He wasn't coiled up and ready to attack. It was more a dominance thing: "Sit your tail down, kid" bit of flaring. Next spawn, I think I'm going to leave him in and see how things go. After removing him, the kids stopped shoaling and spread out around the tank. They're definitely chasing, nipping, and sparring more, too.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

My wild betta males don't hesitate to smack their bratty kids down every now and then. They certainly don't go after them like they would an adult male, so I think they understand that the young fish don't pose a real threat and so moderate their reactions to them. 

However, if you start causing trouble when you're an adult and you are still sharing a tank with dad, you had better watch out. 

I love that photo of Napoleon with the fry. Although it looks like he was giving you some serious stink-eye.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> My wild betta males don't hesitate to smack their bratty kids down every now and then. They certainly don't go after them like they would an adult male, so I think they understand that the young fish don't pose a real threat and so moderate their reactions to them.
> 
> However, if you start causing trouble when you're an adult and you are still sharing a tank with dad, you had better watch out.
> 
> I love that photo of Napoleon with the fry. Although it looks like he was giving you some serious stink-eye.


Ehehehehe, yeah. Napoleon is muttering little betta curses and send mad stick-eye in my general direction... 

Also, I should have left Napoleon in the tank. >.< I think you're right; Nap was just squashing some minor attempts at dominance. Now, I've got little babies squabbling all over... This little doofus seems to be king of the tank at the moment. 









Sidenote: A lot of the fry have a much broader dorsal base than I normally see. I think this is coming from Orange, which is exceptionally awesome. I hope this one is a male; that dorsal has the potential to be *huge*. The fry are on a mix of grindals and daphnia. I need to restock on my spirulina-enriched brine shrimp. I've also started introducing white worms, which are a big mouthful for the babies, but they're greedily chomping down on them. The size difference is really starting to become obvious: they're ranging from 3/4 to 1 inch long.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Chubs is maturing into a rather elegant fellow; I really ought to give him a more dignified name. In any case, his tail is an interesting point of study. (Sidenote: he going to be SUCH a rosetail... Not because he has excessive rays (only 8-rays) but because he has a lot of webbing between each ray, which gives him that frilly look. More on that later.) Even though he only has one copy of "long fin" (inherited from MissJ), his tail continues to lengthen. If I'd flared him, he'd easily hit HM, but as is, he's a smidgen short of the correct spread.

*Pardon the damaged rays, they're from his accidental fight with Red.*









First, length. The perfect halfmoon has a body to caudal ratio of 1:1; basically you want to be able to draw a circle around a betta and have his fins (dorsal, caudal, and anal fins) fully fill that space. Ideally, this would happen at maturity, i.e. when a betta reaches their full growth, and they would maintain this perfect form for the rest of their life. Since the caudal is the last fin to finish developing, I use the anal fin to estimate the mature length of the tail. Assuming his tail continues to lengthen that will put his caudal at ~85%-90% of his body length. (While Chubs is sexually mature now, he's only 6 months old; he has another 3-6 months before he finishes growing.) So, despite being a something of a hybrid from a HMPK x HM spawn, his mature proportions will be very close to a "true" halfmoon. 

Second, rate of caudal growth. Here, I'm comparing Chubs to mini-Ezra, who was also spawned from MissJ (the hybrid) but this time to a long fin red HM. With two copies of "long fin", mini-Ezra rapidly reached the 1:1 body to caudal ratio very early in life. But his fins continued to grow, eventually leading to collapse and tail-biting by 9 months of age. Even with daily flare exercises and minimal water flow, he couldn't support the weight of his fins at maturity. In this race, Chubs is the turtle while mini-Ezra was the rabbit. I'm really really not a fan of the rabbit route. If I ever go back to HMs, I foresee A LOT of crosses to plakats in order to slow fin development waaaaaay down. I suppose rapid growth would be good for entering competitions sooner, but in terms of overall health... meh.

*Mini-Ezra @ 3 months has the same body:tail ratio as Chubs @ 6 months.
*




Third, rays and webbing. The main reason I chose Temujin out of all of his spawn siblings is because he showed the best branching in the tail. It's harder to see in plakats, since they have such short tails, but when you look at his tail, each cluster of rays forms a smooth triangle, like a fan. You only get that look if the first split occurs very early in tail development. If it occurs later, it looks more like a broom, a thicker handle followed by the bristles as the rays split.

1.) Temujin: early branching, fan-like.
2.) Red: late branching, broom-like
3.) Midas: intermediate









Of course, early branching needs to be balanced against the amount of webbing between the rays. This is easier to see in halfmoons where's it's exaggerated by the tail length. It's also where Chubs runs into issues as he's somewhat frilly at the edges and will only get worse as his tail lengthens. He's not technically a rosetail (excessive rays) but rather he has an 8-ray tail with early branching. Don't get me wrong, the early branching is desirable; I _*want*_ that in my breeders. But I also want a smooth edge to the tail. Each cluster of rays should be just touching or slightly separate from the adjacent clusters with no overlap. 










This was a flaw in Temujin as well. If you look closely at the ray cluster in the middle of his tail, there's a wrinkle there. That's actually two clusters jammed together. However, I figured it wouldn't be a large issue in Temujin's fry. Even when crossing two fish with 8-ray tails, the majority of the spawn will have lower ray counts. High ray counts are very recessive, so it's easier to start with an 8-ray fish and breed down than it is to take two 4-ray fish and breed up. 
__________________________________

In other new, PLANTS! the dwarf Nymphaea is growing well. I moved her to the mid-front of the 10 gallon to get more water flow. She's still staying very low to the substrate, no more than 1.5" high with ~3" leaves. Sort of a bronze-tan color with faint speckles. Also, there's one little plantlet that's established now. Leaves and roots but still attached to mama via a runner for now. 



















I also have enough pygmy chain swords to choke a pony. If it wasn't getting so darn cold these next few weeks, I'd be able to put together some plant packages. But nooooooo, NOW winter has to go into effect. (And with me itching to buy some more crypts.... GRRRR!)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hrmmm, so this is going on the 2.5 gallon right now:

*Go Nap! Go Nap! Go Nap! More Nap babies!*









It's actually an interesting and pretty good pairing genetically speaking. Napoleon is a copper salamander, meaning he's NMS/NMS and bl/bl (steel) over a dark-bodied red with white trim due to (I think) variegated fins (Vf/Vf). He's supposedly also an EE carrier, though I haven't done the crosses to confirm that. 

On the opposite side, the female is a BSE red from the Temujin x MissJ spawn. I think she's 100% plakat but I could be off there. Long fin/Short fin hybrid females are a bit tricky for me to identify correctly. From Temujin, she gets NMS/+ as well as some variation of blue from both sides, so half of the theoretical fry should be coppers and the other half metallic blues. She's a light-bodied red, so either all dark-bodied fry or a 50/50 split. She also carries yellow (NR1) from MissJ, and while I don't know about Napoleon specifically, salamanders were originally bred from blue/yellow bicolors (ie mustard gas). I wouldn't be surprised if they threw a few mustard gas fry. This should also dilute out more of her opaque, although I have no clue how that will play with EE or Vf. 

She's a virgin breeder but being paired with Nap, everything looks good so far. He's picking up eggs like a pro, and she's started mimicking him. She's definitely eggy and keeps going up to wrap. 

Of course, Nap put his nest in the back corner. I can't get my camera behind the shelf, so no photos on this spawn. I've got a few shots of dark, fuzzy blobs but nothing that looks vaguely fish-like... *grumble* Oh well, here's hoping for a nice, fertile spawn!

Now I just need Midas to get with the program...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

A bit later than I normally split 'em up but finally had to go in and fish out the BSE red female. Took the opportunity to snap a quick photo of the eggs. (Poor quality, but I was in a hurry. In and out!) The nest was pretty much wrecked when Nap chased the girl around the tank after spawning. He normally builds very nice nests. On the plus side, this makes it really easy to spot the eggs. The egg mass is about the size of a quarter but looks like the eggs might be stacked up a bit, so I'm having a rough time estimating spawn size (ballparking it around 150-200 eggs). Since it's a first spawn for the girl, I guess I'll just leave them all in and see how fertile this cross is. If the spawn is unusually large, Nap will cull down as the fry grow up. 










The BSE red is rather torn up, but I set up The Box in the planted tank. She seems to be recovering well. Gave her a few grindals to munch on, which she readily chomped up. She's pretty slim now; I think Nap managed to get most of the eggs out of her. (I never noticed her irridescence layer is so speckled/incomplete. She's got a milk mustache just like Magellan! :lol: )


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, it's been a good news, bad news type of day. 

Good news: Nap's spawn is hatching. Lots of little white egg sacs with tails are falling from the nest and driving Nap batty. He's been frantically shuttling fry back up to the nest for hours now. There is an unusual number of eggs on the ground, not sure if they're duds or if Nap is having bubble dysfunction issues... (I wonder if there's a pill for that? ^.^)

Bad news: [Censored] [censored] [censored] little red bastard fry! Came home and had to cull 5 fry that were mutilated by their siblings. Missing eyeballs, fins, etc. Today must have been sheer brutal chaos. I've split the spawn. The 7 largest surviving fry went into the crypt tank with Temujin. He's tolerant of larger fry, and I'm hoping he can curb their aggression or at least break up their spats. There's plenty of cover in the tank, and I'll jar them tomorrow if things don't work out. I'm more worried the fry will off each rather than anything Temujin will do to them. The rest of the survivors (9 medium to small fry) are in the planted tank with Midas. So far, he's been ignoring the fry and isn't dominant enough to break up their little fights, but the rest of the spawn doesn't seem to be sparring yet. Yeesh, I've never had a spawn this aggressive.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Welp, Nap's got his own brood of eyeballs and tails now! A fairly small spawn but not surprisingly so considering that the BSE red female was a virgin and 6 months old. She'll continue to grow. 

*Nap being his awesome paternal self with the new fry.*


















I sort of want to cross the BSE red female with her sibling Midas now. Marie (the red HMPK from MN Betta Shop) didn't work out. I'll give it one more shot in a week, but after that, I'll try the BSE red spawn sibling.

Separating the Red x Orange spawn seems to have calmed things down a lot. Temujin is riding herd on the bigger fry and doing a good job of keeping everyone alive. Midas is bubble nesting in the planted tank since the BSE red sibling is recovering in The Box. He's not really interacting with the Red x Orange fry, too busy trying to flirt with his new amour.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Minor heart attack moment today. The thermostat switch on the Eheim Jager in Stumpy's 20 gallon died sometime last night. During feeding time, I stuck my finger in the tank and noticed it was pretty darn warm. Mid-90's style warm. AWWWWWWW [CENSORED], switch is fused in the "on" position. I guess it had to fail sometime... that was a 20 year old heater. Right now, I've got it hooked up to a timer, 15min on : 30 min off, until I can head over to a LFS to get a new heater or a temp controller. The heater technically still works; it's just that it can't turn off on it's own anymore. 

I think I'm going to lose a couple of the girls in the sorority, mainly from the Temujin x MissJ spawn. Bertha, the metallic blue that I mistook for a Petsmart male, doesn't look too good either. Luckily, Marie and Misses J and K are still lively. Stumpy had a bit of heat stroke (or rather low oxygen); she was over on her side again, which is just not a normal orientation for a syno. She seems to be staying right-side up now that I've brought the temp down (slowly). The plants look like crap-o-la: the crypts are melting like crazy, bacopa and water sprite are looking a bit wilted. The ludwigia (lovely weeds that they are) and the java fern keep on trucking. Nrrrg, maybe it's time to overhaul the tank...


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Close call. I had two Eheim Jagers fail and I lost every single fish in both tanks. Mine weren't even anywhere near as old as yours either. 

I can't believe your fry became that aggressive so quickly. I've got a couple young fish here with missing eyes, but I suspect it was the unrelated male in the tank (or even their parents), and not their siblings that were responsible. 

Betta splendens seem to drop like flies all at once. Hopefully your problems aren't anything too serious (or contagious).


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry about the heater failure. I use azoo micro temp controllers on my picos but they'd work fine for your tank and heater too.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks guys  Nothing like a malfunctioning heater to really wake a person up! I'll have to look into that Azoo micro temp controller, AA. That sounds perfect, and I've got an Amazon gift card that I'm itching to use!



LittleBettaFish said:


> I can't believe your fry became that aggressive so quickly. I've got a couple young fish here with missing eyes, but I suspect it was the unrelated male in the tank (or even their parents), and not their siblings that were responsible.


I only wish I could blame the other fish... sadly, my potential suspects are fry and cories, and I don't think the cories are the guilty party! :shock: Happily, Temujin is doing an excellent job of swatting down any mini-rebellions from the fry. Hostilities have ceased and a tentative peace treaty is under negotiation. During this time, the fry have continued to color up, and there is something very very odd going on: some of the fry are popping up as orange, rather than the 100% red I was expecting. My current hunch is that Red and Orange actually came from the same spawn. Normally, this wouldn't be a consideration; however, I bought these two from the MN Betta Shop at the same time, and Tony gets his betta from his uncle back in Thailand. So Red and Orange being spawn siblings is a possibility... which would be an unmeasurable degree of awesome-ness from a genetic standpoint.

*Red to the left and Orange to the right!*









*Assorted kiddies
*









*Temujin stalking the wily Repashy cube
*









*Wide-shot of the crypt tank
*The crypts are still itty-bitty. They haven't grow into their spaces yet. It'll take a loooooooooong time...
But for the record, there's 6 lutea in the back right, 3 nurii 'Pahang mutated' along the right side, 3 striolata in the mid-right, 1 'Silver Queen' in the mid-left front, 2 ferruginea in the left side, 1 fusca in the mid-left, and 4-5 affinis 'Metallic Red' in the back left. Many crypts. Much love!

(There's also rotalla wallichi, ludwigia repens x arcuata, pygmy chain swords, Vesuvius swords, microswords, hydro 'Japan', Windelov and regular java ferns, and anubias nana to hold down the fort until the crypts get settled in.)


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry but the temp controller I mentioned is not on amazon. I got mine from drfostersmith.com


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Lol, yeah figured that out pretty quick! Ended up ordering the Finnex Max-300 off of Amazon. 

Blast from the past, I also picked up a cheap undergravel filter and a re-re-branded Sunsun powerhead to put in the grow-out 10 gallon. The EC substrate tends to go anaerobic when the tank is heavily stocked. Time to fix that issue! (I've moved the rest of the Red x Orange spawn in with Temujin in the crypt tank. Tail count of 18 with at least 3-4 definite oranges in the batch. Midas and his BSE red sibling are currently checking out their new digs in the planted grow out. He's got a bubble nest already going in the back right corner. Little hormonal booger.)

I'm not expecting anything to really happen betta-wise for the next few days as I move a lot of these plants down to Stumpy's 20 gallon. Already skimmed all the riccia off the top... so much riccia... and water sprite. I've got some new plant lovelies coming in, assuming they survive shipment. Crossing my fingers that styro and a heat pack will be enough to get them here!

This is the plant farm tank that doubles as a fry grow out tank. Time to move these puppies out! In the back right, there's java fern 'narrow' and tiger hygro. In front of them is the crypt corner, wendtii 'tropica' and 'green' plus some undulatus 'red'. In front of that are little clusters of anubias nana 'petite'. Then in the front center is willow hygro and pygmy chain swords. Hidden behind them are the dwarf nymphaeas, ocelot swords, and a few Staurogyne repens. Also hiding in the back right corner are the dwarf 4-leaf clover and rotala rotundifolia, while in front is a mess of mixed ludwigia: repens, repens x arcuata, and sphaerocarpa hybrid and some baby pygmy chain swords. WHEW!










In other happy news, here's the first decent photo of the Nap x BSE red spawn. They're still on MW, but I really ought to swap them to BBS. Got to get the hatchery started up. Grumble. I have no clue how many survived. The earlier photo had an top estimate of 50 fry just hitting the free-swimming stage. I'm pretty sure Nap has culled some already. There are at least 12 in the current photo, so I figure I'm in the mid-20s. (Also, I'm trying out straight up dirt as a fry tank substrate. There's going to be mulm, purely from the concentration of fry and fry food. Dirt would actually be a logical alternative to bare-bottom. Plus, it neatly avoids the option of gravel Darwinism.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*...This box is the gateway to dark and dangerous place...*









Dabbling my toes into the world of pressurized CO2. Fifty gets me a basic CO2 kit that includes a 90g cylinder of CO2, a single gauge regulator, check valve, and a bubble counter/diffuser. It took a literal 2 minutes to set up and supposedly, this should last me 3-4 weeks on a 10 gallon if I turn off the CO2 at night. In other words, it'll last long enough to figure out if CO2 is a direction I want to go in!










*In other news, Midas has been very busy today...*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh my poor girl. Midas is experiencing some technical difficulties with the wrapping and flipping part. Aaa, virgin males. EDIT: LOLing my butt off. Midas is not a natural. The girl is a bit chubby with eggs too. She's pretty buoyant and he doesn't have the length or bulk to easily flip her. This is probably going to be a dud spawn. Probably re-try this in another week...

Approach sucessful. Vents are aligned. We are green for wrap.









Wrap initiated. Commencing with flip in T-minus 3... 2...









ABORT! ABORT! ABORT! Mission fail, Houston.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*OK maybe there's hope for this spawn after all. A teeny tiny little hope. 
*I think I'll just let this go and see what the fry look like. If any hatch, I can pool them with Nap's babies and respawn Midas...









To break it down, Midas is a weak yellow with a bit of metallic (NR1/NR1 and NMS/+) and a cambo carrier (C/c). He's started developing a faint speckling of BSE (BSE/+) and looks like a steel blue (bl/bl) thats limited to the fins. His chubby girl is a spawn sibling showing an extended red with variegated fins (I think) and carries both yellow and cambo (R/+, Vf/?, NR1/+, and C/c). She's also got a thin layer of opaque as well as full-body BSE (not sure if she's got one or two copies) and is probably a metallic royal blue on body and fins (Op/+, BSE/?, NMS/+, and Bl/bl).

Mixing this up, their fry should be a 1:1 steel blue to royal blue, 1:2:1 gold to metallic to normal, so I could see anything ranging from steel blue through platinum/metallic all the way over to copper/gold. As far as opaque, they'll range from pastel to clean. Black layer, they'll range from clean to full-body BSE. Red layer, I'm hoping for another mixed spawn of reds and yellows. Ideally, with a more intense yellow.

And I'll be selecting an F2 male to back cross to Miss K, the clean yellow HM/HMPK hybrid, who is a sister to Miss J, the F0 parent of this line. Traits I'm looking for in the F2 male: 1. extended red, 2. NMS/NMS (either as gold or copper), and 3. little to no opaque.

Of course, this is assuming I haven't literally counted my bettas before they've hatched...


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I swear every time I read this journal you seem to have new fry or a new spawn happening. 

All the colour genetics stuff just goes right over my head haha. Sometimes this is why I like the wilds. I always know what I'm going to get. 

Good luck with this latest batch if they hatch.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I swear every time I read this journal you seem to have new fry or a new spawn happening.
> 
> All the colour genetics stuff just goes right over my head haha. Sometimes this is why I like the wilds. I always know what I'm going to get.
> 
> Good luck with this latest batch if they hatch.


^.^ Oh man, I'm just getting started back up. One day I'll get my racks and sumps rebuilt and then it's game on! ...hopefully I'll have time and money once this summer rolls around. Mmmmm, fish room.

They hatched! (Tiny spawn of ~15, let's see how many survive the free-swimming stage.) In hindsight, re-spawning a female after a 2 week recuperation was not my brightest idea. Especially not to a virgin male. >.<

Just some photos of Midas tending to his kids. He's remarkably tolerant of me sticking my schnoz right up against the glass and eyeballing his nest.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Brief update on the spawns:

Red x Orange - The larger group has grown past the 1" mark, while the smaller group ranges from 1-2 cm. (Yup, I'm mixing my measurement systems, darn US. It's time to switch to metric; I'm a scientist dammit. It makes more sense to me.) Truly stunning dorsals on some of these fish, I really want to continue this trait and bring it into the 24K gold line. 

*There's a mix of dorsals. And man, what a dorsal...yum yum yum.*









*More dorsals. And lovely sturdy bodies.
*









Nap x BSE red - I think I'm underestimating the number of fry in this spawn. It might well be closer to ~30. They're in Week 3 and I'm seeing lots of fat bellies. I really like the dirt tank method. I normally run "dirty" tanks, meaning I'll vacuum mulm and poop from a tank with adult betta and use it for water changes in the fry tank. The plants in both tanks soak up all the ammonia, leaving behind organics and bacteria, especially bacteria that is normally a part of the gut flora. I want that bacteria to be established in the fry ASAP. (Yet another reason why I really like the father-in method.) Another interesting tidbit, Cobalt Aquatics sells frozen rotifers. So far, Nap's kids have taken to it pretty easily and early, which is awesome because that's an easy food source for me to keep! So feeding works out as: 2 days post-hatching - feed VE for 48 h, then switch to MW and frozen rotifers for Week 2-3. That lets me skip BBS completely. Yes, BBS is a very rich food; I'm wondering if it's actually too rich...

Midas x BSE red - Well, they're free-swimming, and I've completely lost them in the riccia mat. While they were hanging about the nest, I did see some white bellies. There's definitely VE in the water too, so food is available. Time will tell how many survive...
________________________

In other news, my plants have arrived! Ooo, these are lovely. (I love ordering from experienced plant people; they really know how to package plants for shipment. Even in these freezing temps!

*Bucephalandra sp. "Blue Bell"
*









*Buce. sp. "Isabelle"*









*Buce. sp. "Selena"
*









*Buce. sp. "Midnight Blue"
*









*Ludwigia sp. "White"
*This one is going to be a challenge. Emersed-growth, which I'm currently floating until it hopefully transitions to submersed. Plus, it's white mutant, so it'll need high light. These two stems cost me $15 each! *wince* LIVE, BABIES, LIVE!









*Rotala sp. "Blood Red"
*Pale pink due to shipping stress, but they should perk up and turn a literal "blood red".


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Ooo love the midnight blue buse with its 'sparkle' leaf pattern.
Have you tried using frozen baby brine shrimp instead of hatching them?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Doh! The buces are melting... I was afraid that would happen but hoped it wouldn't. Doh doh doh doh doh! Winter shipping... le sigh.

Oooo frozen BBS? I've actually never seen any around here, just the adults. I can and have hatched 'em; it's just a pain in the butt! Feeding worms is so much easier.

Second DOH! moment of the day. I just pooled the Nap x BSE red with the Midas x BSE red spawn. And then realized I had no way of telling them apart. Because they're all going to be red with metallic and steel blue and a bit of opaque. ...doh...

I need to respawn Midas. >.< Note to self: do not do breeding stuff when under-caffinated.

Just an update: the ludwigia sp. 'white' has settled in. Still floating until she transitions to submersed but so far so good. *knocks on wood*


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

The sp white is lovely.
I got baby brine shrimp (frozen) omega one brand at an odd non chain store, I don't see it at petoc or petsmart.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks, AA! I'll keep my eyes out for Omega One BBS. I think Jack's Pets carries that brand here in Ohio. Maybe Rivers to Reefs can order some for me...
_____________

In future plans...

I think everyone is familiar with the infamous and lovable Miss J, man eater and lady egg-nester extraordinaire. Also, carrier of the thickest opaque yellow I've ever seen. (And a hybrid HM/HMPK.)









Well, here's her daughter from the Temujin x MissJ spawn. Not nearly as much yellow, but enough that I can tell she inherited most of the NR1B genes. Plus, that color should accumulate with age. As a bonus, she's a full plakat; no messy long fin genes to worry about! And she should be NMS/+ by way of Temujin.









On closer inspection, she might be carrying a bit of dark-bodied as well? Obviously she's got BSE, but on her head, she's got black patches and the yellow on her body is very dirty. (I love her already. I might be able to breed her directly to Midas and get strong yellows in the F1. This requires testing!)









Sigh, she also has the bad habit of dropping eggs like her mama, too.









It's like I've seen this before... somewhere... I'm getting this sense of déjà vu.









I want to pair her up with both Red, who apparently is an orange geno (woot!), and Midas. Welp, Red's up first... He's exploring the tank tonight.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Mini update on the ludwigia. Since I have two stems, I tried two different techniques in switching them to submerged growth. 

The smaller stem: I lopped the top off since that will continue to grow with little assistance from me. The remaining stem was stripped of the emergent leaves and left to float in my grow out tank. The top is doing fine. The stem has a few piddly short roots on a couple nodes and two new buds on the top node. Still alive and transitioning but not too impressive.










The larger stem: I left this one intact and soaked it for 12 hours in distilled water + 50ppm IBA (rooting hormone). After rinsing it well, it joined the smaller stem floating in the grow out tank. Here there be roots. Mad crazy roots. And with the roots, came the shoots. It looks like each node has a healthy growing set of roots and shoots, meaning I can turn this one stem into 1-15 stems with a bit more time. OK, we have a winner!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*Brief update on the oranges from the Red x Orange spawn:* Currently, I'm eyeballing 5 oranges out of 18 total fry, which is a surprising ratio if one assumes Red and Orange are unrelated fish, especially since red is dominant over NR2. So... Red and Orange are probably siblings.

*A closer look at some of the oranges:*
They were extremely pissed off in the cup (read: pale) but I finally got a good look at those dorsals. Very happy here! Although the one in the back is going to have to be culled; I didn't notice until now, but his/her anal fin didn't develop correctly. It doesn't seem to be affecting swimming, which is why I haven't noticed until now.









*Better idea of their color:*
The F0 Orange was more of an orange-yellow. Her kids are more in the orange to blood orange range. The variation in color is very interesting. Bit unexpected as well. Hrmm. (And yes, Temujin is being a complete lurker in the background.)









*Someone's acting bashful...*









*In other news,* Red is out of the spawn tank. He just wasn't in the mood to bubble, so he's back to being flare buddies with Chubs. Midas on the other hand, is a horny little teenage bastard. Popped him in, he popped out the bubbles, and I just let MissJ Jr. out into the tank. 48 hour count down starts now.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I'll be saying farewell to Chubs and some of my girls today. They're heading out to Rivers to Reefs, hopefully to find a new home. No death cups, they each get their own 2.5 gallon with a sponge filter and plants. Life is goooooood.

Nap's spawn is doing well. The little boogers are ~3.5 weeks now and all of them are showing a full body NMS. Sparkly little things! They're on live MW, frozen BBS (found some @ R2R!), and frozen rotifers. 










Since I merged the fry from Midas' spawn with Nap's, I respawned Midas, this time to his BSE yellow sibling. Conventional wisdom says "DON'T DO IT!" but she's got a bit of dark-bodied on her. I want to see if it's enough to rescue the NR1 phenotype. With genetics, the only way to know for sure is to do the cross! 

*Ha! He's a pro lady flipper now!
*Spawned: 150129









MissJ Jr, like her sister the BSE red, also produced a smallish spawn. The egg mass was about the size of a dime. You can see them in the photo on the right side of the embracing couple. Midas has since pruned that down. Let's see how many hatch... 

In other news, I've been running CO2 in the planted 10 gallon for a few weeks now. Even at low levels (1 bubble per 5 seconds), I'm seeing an incredible increase in plant growth. The stem plants (assorted ludwigia, rotala, and hygro) are practically shooting to the surface. The rosette plants are less affected, but they're popping out new leaves more frequently. It's pretty awesome; the little paintball all-in-one kit is proving unexpectedly effective and painless. Set up took minutes, and I just let it run 24/7 to prevent CO2 fluctuations. It has caused my pH to plummet to 6.0, which is a number I rarely see without some serious effort on my part.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Glad you found some frozen bbs, so much easier right? ^^
What do you do to prep water for water changes with the tank pH so low from the co2?


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> Glad you found some frozen bbs, so much easier right? ^^
> What do you do to prep water for water changes with the tank pH so low from the co2?


I LOVE the frozen bbs. Holy cow. Best idea ever! I'm going to have to force myself to finish hatching the brine shrimp eggs now...

As far as pH, I've been trying a combo of 50:50 rain water and tap water, which dilutes my KH down to ~20 ppm. Insta-acidic water! And dripping everything in slowly. Glacially slowly... So far so good. I ought to invest in a pH meter at this point though. *grumble*

Also, in other fish news, I remember why I don't do yellow x yellow with this line. The eggs are bloody infertile, and papa fish just ends up with a full belly. AAAARRRRRG! *deep breath* OK, prepping the BSE red sibling again. At least, I know this pairing is fertile. 

X.x YELLOWS!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Alright, after over 9 months of attempting to cross this yellow line with yellow, cambo, and cello, I'm officially NEVER going to try these combos again. No matter how tempted I may be or how well the fish may pair up. THEY ARE [CENSORED] INFERTILE. Lesson learned. 

That said, now it's time to try crossing them with orange. Mwah ahaha! I know they're fertile when crossed with red and red (NR1 geno). I have no clue how this spawn is going to go. All those recessive traits should break and revert back to wild-type red and red cambos assuming this cross is fertile. If not, the BSE red (NR1 geno) is waiting in the wings.

*Welp, here goes Midas x Orange.
*The deed is done, and there's an egg mass about the size of a nickel. 

Fertile or infertile, that is the question:
Whether 'tis viable in the DNA to express
The genes and traits of vivacious Yellow,
Or to eat eggs against a genome of problems,
And by eating end them: to die, to sleep...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

On the plant front: Ludwigia sp. 'White'

Whooooo, transitioning from emergent to submersed growth is going like a dream. I topped the stems and let everything float until submersed growth was visible. Time to sink these puppies. Anchors away!

The tops are anchored to beads in the substrate (on the right), while the new side shoots are tied to a plastic mesh suspended from the light (top left corner). Grow, babies, grow! Hopefully, I can get 20-25 plants out of these two stems. This plant is truly beautiful! It really pops against all the greenery... 

*Emergent growth = broad leaves, submersed growth = narrow leaves*









From the top down, you can tell it's actually a variegated ludwigia and not a true albino. The leaves are a pale green with marginate variegation, which is actually better from a health/growth standpoint. True albino plants tend to be very delicate and weak since they have problems with photosynthesis. This plant has just enough chlorophyll to be healthy while the upper leaves and apical shoots appear white/pink. It looks "dirty" right now, but as it finishes transitioning, I can crank the light which should bleach the tops a pinkish, white.










The leaves are somewhat similar to the 'Pantanal' and 'Cuba' cultivars of L. inclinata although the nodes of the emergent growth are much longer, possibly due to insufficient light? The submersed growth looks like it has much shorter nodes. It has a consistent, alternate leaf arrangement, so it's not a ludwigia hybrid. Emergent leaves are ~1" long and lanceolate. Going by the stems, it probably grows erect, like the South/Central American ludwigia rather than the North American species.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

RAWR RAWR RAWR! Apparently, yellow x orange is also infertile. Just shoot me now. Well, I'm going to see if Midas has one last spawn in him, then I'm giving him a 1 month break. He's rebuilding his nest, and the BSE red sibling is in the tank with him. I *know* this pair is fertile. (Melano is still a possibility. At least I know crossing to red is viable.)

Here's some updated photos of Midas. (His color is a bit bleached out due to the white/blue plant LEDs.)

*Still not big enough to eat you...
*









*Midas is developing Temujin's red freckles
*









I'm wondering if I shot myself in the foot when I did the original F0 cross between Temujin and MissJ. In hindsight, now that I know he's carrying yellow, I should have crossed him to the red HMPK (Marie). It's not too late; I think I'll try those two in a spawn tank. The F1 are going to be a hot mess; but if that's the key to continuing this line... Qué será and all that jazz.

*Complete failure to get an updated broadside photo of Temujin. Wiggly bastard.
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ran home to grab some papers. Poked my nose in the tank to see this:

*F1 sib cross: Midas x BSE red*


















She's dropping lots of eggs; I may need to pull 1/2 the nest tonight to keep the spawn size reasonable. Such a difference from his first attempt at wrapping her at the beginning of January! Midas has really been put through his paces these past few weeks... First spawn to his BSE red sib (accidentally mixed this spawn with Nap's). Then to his BSE yellow sib (infertile). And then to Orange (infertile). And finally back to his BSE red sib, who is once again chock a block full of eggs. At least I know this cross is fertile! If it's not, I may need to look into my calcium levels again. If my GH gets too high, it completely kills egg fertilization. >.< Darn you, liquid rock.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Update on Midas: I think there are tails! Looks like this line only comes with a yellow x red option. Meh. I can work with this! There are still eggs and/or fry in the nest. The infertile spawns were OK for the first 24h, then KAPUT! by 48h. So far, so good. I'll know for sure tomorrow... This also means it's not an issue with my water parameters, which is good to know. 
________________

Also, sent out two plant packages and then received two plant packages. This is a zero sum gain sort of progress. At least they arrived before the snow. I need to thin out the hygro 'Japan' and dwarf clover as well. Hope this weather is just passing through...

In the mad pile o' plants, we have: 
Alternanthera reineckii (tentatively ID'd as var. 'Variegated')
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Hemianthus micranthemoides (Pearlweed)
Limnophila aromatica 'Hippuroides'
Ludwigia sp. 'Red hybrid' 
Ludwigia guinea 'Senegalensis'
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
Pogostemon helferi var. 'Red'









Managed to knock a couple plants off my wishlist. WIN! Some close ups:
Red downoi: Hard to see since it's still small, but the midrib is red. Fullsize, it should have a green leaf with a red heart. (Please live.)









Ludwigia senegalensis: My favorite ludwigia of all! I tried to buy this off ebay earlier this winter, but they were emergent stems wrapped with a lead weight in an empty box. Yeah, stems got mashed, chilled, and failed to shift to submerged growth by the time I got my hands on them. These stems are from an aquatic plant forum. So much love. And the color will only get better!









Anubias 'Pinto': Yum, another variegated plant! I've been shopping around for one of these for months! Finally found one that was available and wouldn't require selling a kidney!  (I meant to snap photo before putting it in the tank. And then forgot. ...you can see a couple leaves...)


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Alternanthera reineckii: Possibly 'Variegated'. The leaves are normal sized, so not 'Mini' and the white/pink veins are pretty characteristic of 'Variegated'. Hrmmm...


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

How much was the pinto? The cheapest I ever found was $35 (plus shipping) for 4-5 leaves less than 1/2" rhizome, then it shot up into $60s+ x.x


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Aqua Aurora said:


> How much was the pinto? The cheapest I ever found was $35 (plus shipping) for 4-5 leaves less than 1/2" rhizome, then it shot up into $60s+ x.x


^.^ The siren song of the anubias...
Thomas Bartlett (Bartohog @ TPT) sold these to me. I paid $25 + shipping for one; he slipped me an extra surprise. They don't have as much white as I expected, but I'm not sure how stable the mutation is, YMMV. I'll see how they settle into the tank and whether I can select for shoots with more white.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Something about the 10 gallon is stressing Midas out. Or he just really doesn't want to raise fry in it... (Or, the last two infertile spawns gave him a taste for egg, which would be bad.) Despite having wiggling eyes and tails yesterday, there are none today, and Midas has a big, fat belly. I've moved him to a dirted 2.5 gallon and tossed in some plants. I figure I'll give him a week in there to flare at his neighbors, and then retry with his red sibling. I'm seriously considering swapping Nap in to care for the eggs after the spawn...


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Apparently, Midas is a sensitive little snowflake and gets performance anxiety. He's doing much better in the dirted 2.5 gallon. In a moment of blind optimism, I paired him up with MissK, the non-BSE yellow sister of MissJ. Genetically, it's a lovely pairing, and I hope it might strengthen the yellow in this line while suppressing the blue iridescence some more. Physically... well, she's a really big, really eggy girl and Midas is young. The hormones are willing, but the body is not quite ready! Since there are a few fry (~5-7), I'm assuming he managed to semi-wrap her, but she was still eggy when he chased her away. 

*Midas: If this tank's a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'!*









*There are fry in there, I promise!
*









I don't have a good photo of MissK; last year, I popped her into the spawn tank without doing a photoshoot. But she has that same thick, opaque yellow like MissJ. And similarly, she's a HM/HMPK hybrid. So I'm looking at 50/50 HM to HMPK in this mini-spawn. I just hope I can track the NMS because I'm down to a single copy in Midas, meaning half the spawn will carry NMS/+ (metallic) and the other half will be regular, non-metallic betta. 

*MissK: candid camera photo... EEK!
*


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Farewell, dearest Stumpy, the last of my synos. It was a wonderful 17 years, and I would have loved to have kept you for another 17. She's really slowed down over these last few months. Still loved shredding my plants; my poor ocelot sword will one day recover... RIP.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hrmmm, haven't updated on the bettas in a while. Let's see what's been going on...

First the sad news, while cleaning out the sorority, I thought I caught all the girls. In fact, I specifically recall Orange was being a wiggle monster at the time. Apparently, she had wiggled her way out of the net and I didn't notice her escape. She got caught in the siphon, and well... ...I have never prepared to euthanize a fish that fast before. Still a bit shaky on this one; it's not a good feeling to know you're the cause of another creature's pain. :-( RIP, Orange.

She'll live on through her babies.

I brought one of the males upstairs to keep an eye on him (and to feed him extra snacks). He's got Orange's amazing long dorsal and awesome orange color. Aside for the white tips on his ventrals, he's got no black flaws, and he's practically clean of iridescence. After putting him the tank next to Midas, I can tell he's going to be a big boy. Much more so than his parents. 

(The curvature of the tank makes him look pug-faced and extra broad, but he's not.)
*Orange M1*









*He's been going at it with Midas all day, and they're busy blowing bubblenests now.
*









*Midas is his usual shiny self.
*









Red and MissJ are currently in the spawn tank. I think this one is a dud though. There's a level of benign disinterest that I've never seen in a pair before, which is bothersome since MissJ is huge with eggs. Meh. I'll give them another day, then separate and retry. 

Temujin and Marie are in another spawn tank. They had one unsuccessful go at it: several attempts to wrap that were then abandoned. No eggs. (And now, no nest.) Older Temujin is not nearly as bendy/flexible as he used to be!

As I mentioned in a previous post, Midas and MissK were rocking the 2.5 gallon earlier. Since this was a low fertility spawn, I decided to pull Midas after 1 week (he was peeved and definitely depressed, note to self: Don't do that again). And I collected all the fry in a small container that I'm floating in the planted tank. There's 16 fry; hopefully I can keep most of them alive!










Napoleon is in the basement riding herd on the Red x Orange spawn again. And ooooh boy does he have his work cut out for him. I've jarred the larger males, but the second wave is up and coming. The girls are pretty well behaved so far, but the 1" males are starting to spar.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

...
...
...

X.x

*Signs that MissJ was in your spawn tank:
*








Luckily, I happened to be in the room the second she snapped and went after Red. This girl has a thing for anal fins!* CHOMP! *Well, Red is out and recovering from emasculation. Midas is in with MissJ now. Even though I have some fry from Midas x MissK; I wouldn't mind if this backcross works out...


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry to read about your female. I've had similar incidents, where you just look back and wish you'd double-checked or paid more attention. Not much you can do but kick yourself about it. 

Midas and Orange M1 look like little tanks. 

Look forward to seeing how your 16 fry grow, and how the rest of your breeding plans go.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry about original Orange. Her son is lovely though! If i wasn't trying *really hard* not to end up with more fish I'd try poking you for any male or female irid-less orange offspring (long dorsal sexyness would be a nice bonus too) you could sell to me.
Good luck with the itty-bitties-in-a-cup! That one that is facing head on in the photo already looks like a grouch-like a younger version of the grumpy fry you use for your avatar.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks guys! Yeah, check, check, and triple check from now one. Grr. May the next idiot moment be a long time in coming.

In happier news, (sort of) MissJ is dropping eggs in her cup. It's sign! Release the kraken! Err, I mean betta. She happily gobbled up most of the eggs before I could grab the camera. She's ready to pop!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Recently (read: FINALLY after two long years of trying) got my hands on some Cryptocoryne sp. "Flamingo". This plant is utterly ridiculous in color. And notoriously difficult to grow and/or maintain this color. Welp, let's see what happens. 

The tissue culture plants arrived on Thursday. I unpacked it and left it on the counter top to warm up to room temp. After several hours, I floated the unopened contained in the planted tank over night. The next afternoon, I opened it up and cleaned off most of the MS medium. Normally, at this point, I'd cut it up into smaller plantlets, but I couldn't see any good break points in the base of the plant. There's a lot of leaf mass versus roots, which is worrisome. I'd rather have it the other way around. I'm half tempted to dip it in some rooting hormone. (Maybe in a week or so...) Well, there's going to be a mad lot of crypt melt going on, so I'll hold off on doing anything else until that's out of the way. For now, the whole thing is on a plant ledge about 6" under a Finnex 24/7. There's a bunch of floating stems that's screening the light; I'll leave those in place for a few more days.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I am so incredibly **ANGRY* *at USPS right now. This is the delightful M2, a solid, intense orange male from the Red x Orange spawn. He is nearly _immaculate_, not a spot of iridescence or black on him. He also has a brother, M1, who is equally as delightful. The only reason I left M1 go was because he was going to a good breeder who was working an orange line. And now! Now, USPS has lost M1 somewhere up in New York when he should be delivered and unpacked in Kentucy right now. NRRRRG! I wouldn't be nearly this pissed if it was M3-M5, which are still nice orange males. 

But M1 and M2 were the pick of the spawn. ASDFASFASDFASF!

The highs in NY are below freezing today. The Eastern Nassau post office has a ONE STAR rating and apparently is a mailing black hole. M1's heat pack should last until Thursday evening. He had better be in Kentucky by tomorrow. :twisted:

I hate USPS.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry to hear about the mailing disaster, hope he turned up alive. 
I'd ordered some plants form someone that were suppose to be here Monday, they vanished Sunday in Ca and never turned up.. usps [massive expletives] won't deal with missing priority packages or refunds until missing for 15 [censor] days!!! The seller was very understanding and refunded me, but I'm pissed, I wanted those plant to rescape Xerxes' tank :c
If UPS cost just a little less I'd switch to them, but most buyers/sellers won't sue them for their costs, even if they are more reliable (around here at least).


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

*M1 LIVES! He's alive 
*I'm so relieved; he needs to go forth and spread his little betta genes. Whew!



Aqua Aurora said:


> Sorry to hear about the mailing disaster, hope he turned up alive.
> I'd ordered some plants form someone that were suppose to be here Monday, they vanished Sunday in Ca and never turned up.. usps [massive expletives] won't deal with missing priority packages or refunds until missing for 15 [censor] days!!! The seller was very understanding and refunded me, but I'm pissed, I wanted those plant to rescape Xerxes' tank :c
> If UPS cost just a little less I'd switch to them, but most buyers/sellers won't sue them for their costs, even if they are more reliable (around here at least).


Ugh, I know! At least with Express, there's the option to refund shipping costs and get the value of the contents back through their insurance policy. (Some times it works, some times not. And it always costs an arm and a leg.) With Priority, it's impossible; plus 15 days before they take any action??! I mean, if it's supposed to get from Point A to Point B in 2-3 days, and they're not going to do ANYTHING until 2 weeks have gone by... then what was the point in shipping it Priority? At this point, it's sad that I'm familiar with the Ohio routing for incoming/outgoing shipments. And whenever a package disappears off that route, I *KNOW* USPS screwed the pooch and said package is lost or misdirected. It's like watching a slow-mo train wreck and not being able to do anything!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, not too much going on right now. I had a bit of a breeding slump during February as every single male was friend-zoned, but I think that trend has finally broken (thank goodness!). I ended up culling the original Midas x MissK spawn and finally got them to respawn yesterday (6 Mar 2016). Here's to a larger, stronger spawn. I'll be leaving Midas in with them, father-in as usual, rather than pulling him out like I did the last time. However, for Midas' delicate ego, I've left the tank covered with minimal disturbances.

Napoleon's spawn is growing well. They're slightly under an inch now. Oddly, about 15% of the spawn were lacking ventrals, which is a first for me. I'm not sure if I was slacking on the MW culture or if this is genetic. I've never had problems with the MW before, and the F0 parents are from completely unrelated lines, so I have no clue why this happened... On the plus side, because of the unrelated lines, this spawn is a hodge podge of colors, which is rather fun in it's own way. (I'm a fan of more controlled genetics, but the occasional random genetic blender is also exciting.) In any case, the F1 are a mix of copper and metallic blue, some with a touch of opaque. Under that, most have some sort of red though it's not uniform. And they're all dark bodied and/or showing full body BSE. The reason for doing this spawn was to start testing whether or not Nap is carrying big ear genetics. I have a hunch that big ear might be linked to Vf or Op. It's early times still, but... there might be some big ears in this spawn...



















*M7 (juvenile male) is currently in with Nap's kids 
*They keep trying to shoal around him, but he is so confused. :shock:









Speaking of the Red x Orange spawn, M6 (orange) and M9 (cambo-based red) are just about ready to go out. They're slightly smaller (~1.25") and aren't quite fully mature, but I've got another spawn coming up soon.

*M6: Hnng, that dorsal! (I'm kinda tempted to keep him...)
*









*M9: Mmmmm, red.
*Being cambo-based, it'll take a bit longer for the red to develop in the body, but he'll end up looking like his dad.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

I've really been slacking on the yellow line and need to pick that back up again. Sadly, MissK did not survive the latest spawning attempt with Midas. Apparently, he snuck in some body blows while I wasn't looking. There were eggs, but Midas didn't think they were fertile. The eggs ended up as fish snacks. Shortly after removing MissK, I noticed she had some internal bleeding. And that was that for the lovable MissK. I did successfully pair Midas with MissJ though; she's a man-eater on her own right. Semi-successful as usual; these girls don't cross well with other non-reds. There are eyeballs and tails in with Midas, I think. I'm trying not to poke my nose i the tank too much, since Midas is a nervous father. 

Otherwise, I'm hoping to pair MissJ with one of the cambo-based reds from the Red x Orange spawn. Things re looking... explosive.


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Sorry about Missk :c Hope the upcoming MissJ spawn works out for you!


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks AA! Bit of a downer with MissK, but MissJ is still a brassy [censored!] even if she's getting up there in years for a breeding lady. She's my last yellow too, eep! And getting the pampering of a lifetime to get her ready for this spawn! Hoping for at least 75 fry so I have a good selection...  But I'll be happy with a fertile wrap first! >.< Virgin male coming up!


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Will you be looking for another female to add to the breeding stock (aquabid/ebay/stores) or just hope for some good offspring to fill that spot?

Sadly the Santarem you sent didn't make it. The base(crown/mini bulb.. what ever the proepr term is for it) went soft and stems broke loose from the base. But all the free stems (omg thank you for all them!) are doing well in Ajax's riparium. Hows the N. Taiwan doing? Typically its leaves melt form travel (doesn't ship well-at least the ones I got originally were melted) but the crown /whatever usually spits out new leaves within a week. I have more grown now if you want me to send more to you. I think I want to try a tiger lotus if I can manage to keep the leaves trimmed down so they don't dominate the tank too much..thing is I need more biolaod for that big bulb plant hmm..


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hoping for some good yellow breeders to take up the torch 

Well... phooey on the Santarem! We should set up another plant swap and I'll send a new one as a hitchhiker. The ones I have now are babies, so they can be packed in a plastic tube for protection. Any idea on cause of death for the original Santarem? Dried out during transport, bruised crown, just didn't travel well? (Best to learn from failure, if nothing else...)

The Taiwan required a stern talking to! LOL, the leaves didn't melt exactly, but they weren't thriving and eventually died. However, I was able to convince two nodes to send up some leaves. They're floating for now, until they get big enough to plant. The funny thing is the creeping jenny ^.^ The stems completely melted but several leaves survived and are developing roots from the petiole. They will grow a plant eventually! And it will be submersed growth...

Glad you like the stems! I'm still wrestling with the ludwigia senegalensis. I don't quite have the right set up for them; they're very not happy with me right now. I can't decide if it's trace deficiency or toxicity. The buds are turning black and shriveling up. I think I'm going to get another tissue culture of them and try again. (FYI, they REALLY do not like to be shaded.)


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Hope the spawn goes well and yields some lovely girls for you.
They were not dry from transit.. not sure if bruising, or just drastic change in water params from your place (my is 7.5pH, tds 210, gh kh 30-70 range, 78F).. or maybe my frogbit hogged all the nutrients.. i should have tried stuffing a root tab under it.
Wow I've not had creeping jenny melt on me like that before. But its cool how such a small piece can start a new plant. The senegalensis is alive but not thriving. It gets direct light but probably gets out competed for nutrients in my tank.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Ahhh, tomorrow the last of the orange boys heads out to his new home. There's still a couple cambo-based reds hanging about. If I'm feeling motivated, I'll snap some photos and put them on EvilBay; otherwise, they may end up at Rivers to Reefs with some of their female sibs. 

*Siblings: can't live with 'em and can't kill 'em 'cause there's no place to hide the body.
*









In other news, I finally figured out why this spawn wasn't happening. Heaters: they work better when plugged in. >.< Tank temp of 68°F. Brrrrr! Sorry, babies; the heat's back on now!










Also, fun with plants! The Crypt sp. Flamingo has been divided up and planted. 14 plantlets from 1 cup; I went 9 submersed in my crypt tank, 4 emergent in soil, and I sold 1 at a local auction. So far, so good; I'm looking at a 100% survival at the 1 month mark. (Knock on wood!) I'm starting to see signs of greening, so now that they're weened off the sucrose and MS, it's time to start sloooooowly ramping up the light. (You can see some of Nap's kids checking out the new vegetation!)


















I also got Crypt. cordata, which I've never seen for sale anywhere. 14 plantlets (10 submersed, 2 emergent, and 2 sold) with a 100% survival at 1 month. These guys are sturdy little crypts; they didn't even twitch during the transition out of tissue culture. A few of the leaves are starting to show that pretty green patterning.


















I also was able to get my hands on some tissue cultures of Echinodorus Aflame. They're tiny little shoots, but you can already see the distinctive purple coloration on some of the leaf tips. I have no idea how this transitions, so I've got 6 partially submerged, 7 floating, and 3 planted. Hopefully, some of them survive...










I also found Hygro pinnitifida in tissue culture at Petsmart of all places! I have to admit curiosity killed the cat. This hygro is normally sold as emergent stems, which are a PITA to transition to submersed growth. It has a hideously high failure rate. I'm wondering if TC is the better way to go? I have to say, taking them out of the baggy, I was not impressed. The leaves were a translucent brown color and readily detached from the stem. I cleaned them off, there were 3 main nodes and 1 small fragment (about the size of a pencil eraser). On the plus side, there was no rotting odor. I guess time will tell. I left them floating with the E. Aflame...


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## Aqua Aurora (Oct 4, 2013)

Hope all your new plant additions do well/crypts keep up non melting status!
I also got some e. aflame in today along with e. hati red and anubias 'diamond' and 'broad leaf' (i think the seller did not send broad leaf though.. leaf is too short and wide not elongated properly...). Half of the e. aflame leaves look dead/dieing (lack of light or from emersed to immersed transition before coming here) but newest growth looks good. doing a water change and getting ready to stuff in some root tabs and iron fert dose.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks AA! More plant discussions on a later day; I'm a sleepyhead tonight... zzzz...

Heater was the issue; sexy times commenced today. And MissJ unloaded *BOTH* ovaries again. >.< There are so many eggs. I already pulled half after I scooped her out. I have a feeling I should have pulled more. I left as many as I did because the Red line tends toward fry eating. Trying to breed that out. We'll see in Red3 has better habits. He did very well for a virgin breeder; MissJ taught him the ropes. It did take him quite a few wraps before he figured out the whole egg retrieval part. 

MissJ: "Pick up the eggs, stupid. Go down here. Pick. Up. Eggs."









In other news, Nap's kids are growing well. Not all of his kids show the big ear trait, but I've pull out 8 that show promise. First, some photos of the regulars; they might be slightly larger, but nothing to write home about. Due to the genetics of the BSE red female (from the Temujin x MissJ spawn) half of this spawn ended up metallic blue in the iridescence layer and half ended up copper like their papa, Napoleon. And on top of that, 50% ended up with one copy of opaque, which gives them an interesting white wash and fat, white lipstick...


















Then there's the 8; watch for one of them to enter from the top right. Also, surprise cameo by Temujin because of course he needs to stick his fat head in!





Finally, the Midas x MissJ spawns. Of which there were many spawns, but few survivors. There's one longfin that's in with Nap's kids; I'll have to snap a photo. He/She looks very pretty but not quite what I'm after. Of the 6 from the latest attempt, I lost one due to stupidity during a transfer. The other 5 are chowing down on grindals and growing like weeds. <3


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