# Marble HM x Red HM Sibling



## logisticsguy

We have some free swimmers now so the work starts for real. Smokey is one of my favorite males and bred him with Storm my favirite girl. They are siblings from the same spawn and happy to report not a scratch on either fish from the spawning. Fish are 4.5 months old.

Smokey










Storm


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## GoodMorning

siblings from the same spawn? aren't you doing it wrong?


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## Hadoken Kitty

No, you can breed siblings. This pair looks nice!!! Can't wait to see the fry!!


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## Crowntails

Beautiful pair. I love Smokey!


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## Flapmon

I do have to ask, what's the little white dot coming out of the females belly? << My little girl has it along with a fat stomach. o.o


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## logisticsguy

That is her ovipositer is showing. Pic taken when she was eggy and conditioning.

Thanks for the kind words HK and Crowntails.


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## MattsBettas

Yay! Imagine the results from this spawn:roll:! F2 should be really exciting. Who knows what will happen!


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## belleangel33

Congrats! I can't wait to see what the fry look like


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## Jayloo

Love the female! Congrats on fry.


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## Mahsfish

Just as Matt asked earlier in your journal. What is you goal for this line? Anything specific?


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## logisticsguy

Well I plan on taking the best of this Spawn and then crossing in my Giant HM pair. Long term goal a stable Giant marble HM line that has good form and unique colors. Find a few more nice ones along the way, Yes I know I wont win any shows with this goal but thats ok no shows anywhere near me anyway.


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## trilobite

Lovely pair! Will be watching this one. I love F2s, get to see the recessives come back. What were their parents?


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## DragonFyre14

Can't wait to see how this spawn turns out. Smokey is absolutely gorgeous.


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## alunjai

What does F2 mean?



MattsBettas said:


> Yay! Imagine the results from this spawn:roll:! F2 should be really exciting. Who knows what will happen!


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## Mahsfish

F2 is just 2nd gen type of thing. So he bred a male and female which was f1. Then he is breeding 2 sibling from this spawn which was f2. I'd he breed 2 sibling from this current spawn then that would be f3. And so on.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Stalking lol. Heard you got my snails!! Yay! Can you please post pics, very sorry this is the wrong place to post this but I am so excited!!


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## alunjai

Thanks Mahs!! I thought it was something like that. Thanks for the confirmation 



Mahsfish said:


> F2 is just 2nd gen type of thing. So he bred a male and female which was f1. Then he is breeding 2 sibling from this spawn which was f2. I'd he breed 2 sibling from this current spawn then that would be f3. And so on.


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## royal

so how are they?


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## MattsBettas

Update please? Really excited to watch these guys grow up. About how many would you say there are? Storm was in the shipment, right?


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## logisticsguy

bb123 and I decided it was too risky to send Storm via mail. IM0 she is my my best female so she thankfully stayed behind. This spawn had something happen to it and not sure what. There is only 5-7 that became free swimmers. Suspect is usual water issue as I tried one last time before rainwater was running. Today I added a tank heater and filter to my barrel which finally unfroze so I could drain it. the 5-7 fry look ok but still a very disapointing situation.


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## MattsBettas

That's to bad. I am glad storm stayed though! I hope you can get your crappy water issue fix


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## Mahsfish

This water thing can be pretty annoying sometimes. I've always kept cichlids and they've been fine, in fact they do pretty well, my fry are growing quickly, other the other hand these bettas just hate it and it doesn't do much for em. 

Looks like I'm gonna have another batch of eggs from my cons tonight. If anybody is interested pm me. They have half black half pink. Unless some are marble aswell but I can tell at this stage.


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## logisticsguy

We have the best chichlid water in the world outside Lake Malawi :-(

This is why you see so many chichlid breeders here I used to be one of them.

The water here is ok to keep adult betta with proper care of couse. 

As a betta breeder Ive given up and must use a mix of tap rain or ro water to lower gh and kh...even ph for the spawn tank. Also curls and taters fins of even well kept betta. So to thrive adjustments must be made imo.


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## Mahsfish

Yeah I'm really into the cichlids still. Had a 2 pairs of flowerhorns before. But I've noticed some of the curled fins in past bettas I've had. Also, does IAL help much in lowering pH or do does it not do enough but just a tad


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## logisticsguy

Yeah I bred some nasty big Oscars with ease in this water. Usually ial lowers ph in most peoples water. Here it does very little that way. Its that hard and stable. Also stability of ph gh and kh is critical. Playing with it and making error can cause fluctuations which can cause more problems to betta than just living with the issues. It really only causes me major problems with the hatching of the eggs.


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## logisticsguy

After getting over the shock of having so few fry 10 or so ive embraced it lol. No culling easy to feed and clean. 

There are a couple nice big fry too so gonna do my best to grow them out.


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## royal

Glad that you're seeing the bright side lg!


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## logisticsguy

Thanks royal. Yes it helps to stay positive. They are a well fed group of fry and much easier to take care of for sure than hundreds. Might just grow them out in the same 10g tank cuz so few of them. Thankfully the ones that managed to hatch look very healthy.


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## royal

I'm glad that they're all healthy! Pics?


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## logisticsguy

We have a fry in this spawn that not sure what is up. The gimpy fry seems to not be able to float very well and sinks easy, struggles to get to the surface but can. Back end sinks faster. Is this a swim bladder issue caused by over feeding bbs possibly or a genetic thing. There is only 10 fry in the spawn and do not wish to cull. Is there anything I can do to help this fry? Ive not encountered this before any advise is appreciated.


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## Skyewillow

Aemaki has a petco baby with the same issue, it seems like the SB didn't form properly, and the fish will end up special needs for it's life. It isn't a death sentence though. Just needs some extra attention.


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## logisticsguy

Thanks Skye. Well I can look after a *special betta* The lil guy is really cute too bad this happened to it.

Breaks my heart to watch it struggle. btw Binky plush hangs over my tank area now. Good karma thanks much.


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## Skyewillow

You're welcome. I think what Aemaki is doing for hers, is letting her build up her swimming muscles, so she can be housed in a 2.5 permanently. She started her off in a shallow dish, and graduated her from there as getting to the surface became easier.

Hopefully Binky will watch over her grandbabies from there!


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## dramaqueen

I'd offer to take the special needs baby but my life is in such an uproar now with moving.


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## logisticsguy

Moving can be so stressful DQ, It can really take a toll. 

I will move the *special yet un named fry* to a 4 inch deep container and put her in the heated tub area. My f2 spawns appear to be highly aggressive compared to the parents * laid back* spawn for some reason. At this rate I will have to jar much earlier they chase each other around like mad for such tiny young fry.


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## royal

Hey lg, why can't i read your journal thread?


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## Mahsfish

Sorry I know this isn't the place but same with royal couldn't view the journal. So how is banana doing? Just curious in his current state. Hoping he is doing better now


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## BeautifulBetta123

The journal was deleted I believe, no other reason for it to disappear.
Might have been too big... Or some other reason
I too noticed it was gone.


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## logisticsguy

The journal was deleted because I didn't like it anymore.

@mah Bananas fins have improved pretty well He is one shy boy though. It looks like he has a new home a young lady is picking up 5 this weekend and Banana is one of the ones on hold. 

Today I power cleaned the fry tanks as carefully as possible and fooled around making them an auto drip in and out to cut down on effort doing wc all the time. They are growing rapidly but concerned about the swim bladder of a few in Chuck Norris spawn. Its funny how they are so much like Dad very hyper. CN and Smokey keep changing all the time and ive noticed some of the girls from that spawn adding color late like their Mom. Google actually starting to look good as moustache has disappeared. 10 girls were delivered to a pet store today and I used the credits to buy a months worth of NLS, bloodworms and a new heater for a tub after I foolishly did not top up the water in time and wrecked it.


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## Mahsfish

Okay I have a bad feeling sbd is genetic now. Hopefully this is not the case though. 

Would it be possible to see banana before he leaves? I'd like to see his progress since I've had him


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## logisticsguy

Mahsfish said:


> Okay I have a bad feeling sbd is genetic now. Hopefully this is not the case though.
> 
> Would it be possible to see banana before he leaves? I'd like to see his progress since I've had him


This is the first swim bladder issue Ive had with any spawn. I think it was due to my over feed during a critical point of gastro development. Interestingly the spawn was divided into 2, one group given a probiotic bacterial supplement immediately after hatch and the other group not given the supplement. The bacterial group developed no issues so far, 0 out of 60-65, but the non supplement fry has 3-5 out of 70-75 with swb.

I will pm you some pics of Banana this week B. I do find one particular fin rot bacteria does very well in our water and causes raggy and curly fins. Once the water hardness is reduced to 3 it seems be much less active. If you add 20% rain or RO to the tap it seems to not be a problem, but you have to be careful and keep it premixed and tested to keep it consistent or stability fluctuations can cause big problems. Eventually I will be using a ro system with mineral additives to improve the water quality but for now just trying to use my rain barrel. Problem is we have had almost no rain here and since money is tight the RO is on the backburner.


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## Mahsfish

Okay great thanks CJ. I've noticed that Eragon the blue boy from you did get a little damage from it but not too bad. The others are fine. I think it's worse with the long fin hm. That is why I will be going the hmpk route after this. Thanks. I migh breed into your line though to get some marble hmpk.


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## logisticsguy

Yes it seems to affect my HM fins way more than my PK or CT which show no signs of the problem at all. Given the water we have here it is likely a good idea to go that way or be faced with buying RO system. It is very hard to produce top notch quality fin HM here without changes to the water chemistry.


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## Mahsfish

Quick question. At 2 weeks should I keep feeding bbs or are they good with only mw


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## logisticsguy

I usually keep feeding bbs until the end of week 4. At this point I start live or frozen daphnia and introduce a small amount nls
grow. Daily removal of uneaten food, poops, and scummys off the tank bottom is good thing with a turkey baster, the bottom-loving fry that are exposed to too much of that bacteria might not develop their ventral fins. Keeping the fry tank floor clean is important at this stage.


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## Mahsfish

Okay I will start that. And where can I get nls? Pisces only or are there other stores?


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## logisticsguy

Its is silly but Pisces has the NLS Grow but no NLS Betta. Big Als has NLS Betta but no NLS Grow.


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## BeautifulBetta123

The Big Al's here has every kind of NLS possible I think lol.


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## Mahsfish

Okay I will check out big als this weekend. Probably riverfront and Pisces aswell since ill he down there, looking to get a couple juvie flowerhorns for my 50 to grow out and keep till the get too big


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## logisticsguy

You should send some pics of your Flowerhorns.
They seem to thrive here and Im thinking about getting a breeding pair from a good friend.

PS Big Als keeps the NLS in a different spot than the other food so you may have to ask for it.


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## Mahsfish

Well I used to have 4. But I sold them all. I wanted to keep my red dragon zz girl or my red dragon fader boy. I was unsuccessful in breeding sadly. I want to try again but my tank is only 50 and too small for a nice pair. I could only breed them while they are 4-5". I will post some pics in my journal so you can see them.


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## logisticsguy

Some pics of the Smokey x Storm spawn.


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## logisticsguy

The spawn tank looks very empty with only 10 fry!


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## BeautifulBetta123

Looking good! They are so cute!


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## Mahsfish

Wow already showing colour. I see what you mean when you say you're good at raising them quickly. Mine are still tiny. How old are they again?


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## logisticsguy

@mah Well 1 fry in there is 4 weeks. When I saw there was no or small hatching ( my constant problem) I re spawned. The 9 small fry in this tank are 21 days old. There is more color early than expected, the last spawns the early color fry often were the ones doing the most color changes and or color loss in weeks 8-10. Also with only so few the fry should grow a lil quicker. The key for good growth imo is frequent water changes and clean tank. I drain 50% via airstone into a bucket so no fry get sucked in and turkey baster the bottom every 2-3 days. In a week I go to everyday 50% water change schedule as the grow stunt hormone gets powerful and must be kept to a minimum. My other spawn (Chuck Norris) is exact same age as yours. I will get some pics from that one soon it will be a better comparison ie size. The fry grow so fast at this point even a few days makes a big difference. Im playing around with adding pro biotic bacteria cultures to spawns, it will be interesting to see if much improvement.

@bb123 Thank you. I love fry when little like this. So cute and they swim over to the front when they see me now to beg for food. Today I have to power clean the other spawn tank and remove some plants which are starting to overgrow and give fry trouble moving it is so over packed. Then get the Giants spawn tank ready for another try as finally some rain water to dilute the crappy tap water. I really hope it makes enough difference that the eggs will hatch this time.


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## logisticsguy

No point in starting another spawn log so here is the Chuck Norris x Star F2 spawn pics. 

This spawn is hatch date is May 2 so 16 days old.

Week 1










Week 2




























Pic of Dad Chuck Norris



















This is from 3 weeks ago so you can see he is in color gain mode.










This is Mom Star


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## Mahsfish

Nice. They lookin a lot better than mine. Today I will be carefully be siphoning some of the waste out and adding 2 cups of water just to be care full. I will slowly increase the amount of new water I have each day to ease them into it. So 2 today, then 3 tomorrow and so on initial I reach 6


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## logisticsguy

That is good idea b. Im maybe over the top ie frequent water changes and starting to add/remove water fairly early but it works for me and using drip in/out its not that much more work. I try to average 1-2g per day in/out until week 4 when I do 50-75% water change everyday depending on number of fry and size of tank. Right now Im trying to cycle a 33g growout in the garage for the 2 spawns. Also have my Giants together hoping for some luck. They are crazy for each other but my big boy is the messiest caretaker ever and I am the worst egg hatcher ever so Im keeping realistic and not getting my hopes up too much.


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## Mahsfish

Yeah that's what my parents mentioned to me, she was like why don't we just move ur tanks to the garage. But there's no room in there. Hoping one day if I continue the hobby ill get my little fish room/ mancave haha.


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## logisticsguy




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## Mahsfish

Looking good.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yes looking good!


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## logisticsguy

Thanks Shae and Mah. Ive noticed a couple things that are different from the parents f1 spawn. The f2 has a lot more color early. The fry are way more aggressive for some reason. I think the growth rate is faster as well but that may be because I have more experience this time and made fewer mistakes but Im not sure. Way more fin development as well when I looked at pics from the parents spawn from the same age. I find fry really cute at this stage of development.


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## logisticsguy

Oh Im so happy the little guys with swb seem to have outgrown the condition and are swimming normal now.

I caused the problem by overfeeding bbs too early in the 1st week.


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## Mahsfish

Should I start another batch of bbs. The first bath he's are
Too big now and I just have mw. Are they fin on that or is
Varied diet better?


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## logisticsguy

Many breeders go bbs only and do very well. I still feed some mw for a week or so then I start adding frozen daphnia, bbs, ect. along with the nhbbs. In about 2 weeks I will start them on a small amount of nls grow. A varied diet is a very good thing.


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## dramaqueen

I'm glad your babies are doing better.


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## MattsBettas

Any noticeable scaling defects in this batch?


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## Clayton1089

how did you get them to grow so fast?!?!?!


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## logisticsguy

No sign of it yet Matt. Hopefully using the parents I did I hope will be gone or greatly reduced. 

I can already see the benefits of line breeding but only going to go to f3 then breed out.

Probiotics are being used on the spawns and the possibility exists that they played a role in helping the swb issue.


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## Clayton1089

how are you using them? and where do you get them? the probiotics I mean haha


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## logisticsguy

Im using good old human probiotics. The trick is not to use much. Each cap has millions and millions of cells. The fish can be over dosed easily. You don't need much. In studies anything over 254ppm can kill. Probiotics are beneficial up to about 64 ppm. You need even less to get the cells into the fish guts. It can be added directly to the water or added to mw culture. Study shows it most benefit at the earliest stages right after hatching. There are many stains of probiotic bacteria. The ones approved for humans are generally very harmless, humans are very sensitive you know. The concept is simple fight the bad bacteria with the good. Lactobacillus rhamnosus is cited in many studies re fish so that is what Im using as well as 4 other strains. My source is Webber Complete Probiotic in capsules. Please note I do not want to give bad info or be responsible for someone overdosing their fish. I part of a study be done by an actual smart person with a phd. What Im doing as just a backyard breeder is helping provide some data. I may make a post in the future re probiotics with more detail an links. In any event there is enough evidence already to say they hold great promise for aquarists and many commercial fish farms and hatcheries use them already for production and disease prevention.


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## Clayton1089

so how do you measure out the right amount???


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## logisticsguy

That is the key question right now and what I am working on. It is why I don't have quality dosing recommendations just yet. If 1 cap is enough to dose a 200lb man for 1 day how much for such tiny fry? Then you have to calculate water volume ect. Many variables from what I can tell. Sprinkle a tiny bit 1/10 of a cap in the mw culture for first feed. The rate im using is 1 cap per 10 days and it is pre diluted in pure water before going in the tank.

An easier way to get the probiotics in a dosed manner could be to try a product like this already on the market for Flowerhorns and crushing if needed. I would expect to see a probiotic betta specific food on the market soon. 

http://www.mnbettashop.com/apps/webstore/products/show/2598188


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## Clayton1089

so do you think I could use 1/10 of a cap in some water to kind of dissolve it and put it in my tank once a day? I have a 10 gal


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## logisticsguy

You could do that Clayton. However if I were you I would wait and see the results of what Im doing and if the dose Im using ends up benefiting or harming the fish. It is too early to draw conclusions at this point imo. This is somewhat experimental and I would not want to be responsible for harming your or anyone else fry. 

The best thing you can do to get good growth is 

Live Foods. MW NHBBS BW Several small feeds per day vs 1 large feed.

Pristine water. Frequent water exchange and very slowly in and out but only after 10 days at earliest. Also keeps stunt homones to a minimum.

Live Plants. Infusoria and micros that comes with duckweed java moss ect right after hatching.

A clean bottom. I use a turkey baster when the fry are big enough to be avoid being sucked up by clumsy me. Getting the waste out keeps bacteria to a minimum. 

No over crowding. A large spawn can take up a lot of space very quickly. Have a growout tank adequate for the number of fry being raised. The more room they have to grow the better.


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## Clayton1089

Ok well I'm feeding egg yolk for the smaller fry but I have bbs for the larger ones, maybe I will wait till my next spawn in about three months to give you time to know more, thank you for the help I will check back with you later


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## logisticsguy

So far its going ok no fry loses yet. They are really packing away the food. 



















Video Poor 

http://s1145.photobucket.com/user/l...30529_231212_zps3365a6c4.mp4.html?sort=3&o=32


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## BeautifulBetta123

They look great! Mostly red in this spawn?


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## Hadoken Kitty

You know, I never thought of feeding egg yolk...is this uncooked grocery store type?


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## Clayton1089

No you take and hard boil an egg and you break a piece of the yolk off about the size of a pea then you put it in a container and smash it up and add some tank water and shake it like crazy to break it up into very small specs then feed with an eye dropper but make sure to clean the leftovers up the same day as the yolk goes bad very fast if uneaten


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## logisticsguy

BeautifulBetta123 said:


> They look great! Mostly red in this spawn?


Yes and Im a little surprised by so much red. Storm has red fins so I guess they got it from Mom. I tried to feed them a meal of non live food last night and had to clean it off the bottom this morning they wouldn't touch it. Both the spawns have an even growth rate so far and not as much size variance as the f1 where it was a mix of very big and super tiny fry. They sure know where the food comes from already, as soon as they see me coming all fry get lined up at the top just begging/waiting for food. I am trying to teach them some tricks using food as the reward. Works for my dogs so trying it with the fry.


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## logisticsguy

More fry pics from today. They move so fast they are hard to photo.


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## Hadoken Kitty

logisticsguy said:


> I am trying to teach them some tricks using food as the reward. Works for my dogs so trying it with the fry.


Totally possible. My girls come to me on call and jump out of the water. I taught my first male to "kiss" my finger in order to receive food. Haha.


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## logisticsguy

Oh I like that one HK. I am going to work on that. My last spawn The fry knew they had to all be lined up at the top for food. If everyone wasn't there no food. I think these fish are more intelligent and social than generally given credit for.


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## Mahsfish

Hey CJ from observation, has the majority of the females from the superman spawn turn out to be solids while most males were marbles? I noticed this but they aren't my fish I can't totally say. Wondering if this is just Coinsidence or if marveling doesn't occur as often in females.


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## logisticsguy

It actually worked out about 50/50. I did not get the fast color change thing in any females or Panda marbles in the females. I did get a few piebald females though. Mostly they were koi or cellophane but many are still slowly adding new colors. So far Ive only bred solid females in the f2 spawns but Im really liking one crazy looking marble girl in sorority 2 so I may breed her to Leroy who is an unrelated HM boy just to see what happens. There are a few girls doing the slow change thing but the drastic fast marbles were all males in that spawn.


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## Mahsfish

Oh okay. Leroy is the blue bf hm boy right? He's not too bad pretty good looking. Do you have pic if the femal your talking about?


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## logisticsguy

Im doing some photos tonight so I will take a couple of her. She is kind of unique. Yeah that's Leroy a blue and white butterfly HM that Sy and I found in a pet store where he was so much better than the other HMs. Dude was seriously out of place. Leroy is a real character.


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## logisticsguy

Fry eating a boatload of food now and chase each other all day long. Starting to add small amount of frozens to the diet. No one fry gets picked on too much and they all chase. Its a game. My nephew who is 5 watched them for and hour. 

He tells his Mom

"Uncles little fish are really mean. They bite each other!!"

"That's why they are fighting fish cuz they bite"

It was pretty cute.


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## Hadoken Kitty

Omg I love it!!! Look at those gorgeous cambos!!!


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## Mahsfish

Looking good CJ. Doing better than me and my rookie mistakes and slip ups. I'm sure ill improve over the years. How's the younger spawn going?


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## logisticsguy

Thanks Mah. Im lucky my first spawn even survived. I made so many mistakes early on. Still dreadful at getting eggs hatched to this day. Despite reading about breeding and asking questions in hindsight I was poor at so many things. I found the learning curve steeper for breeding betta than almost anything Ive ever done in life. You will be better next time I guarantee. Honestly I learn something every day. this is way more complex than I ever imagined when I got my first betta Fred.


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## logisticsguy

This is the Chuck Norris spawn a week to 10 days behind. There are about 60-80 in a 10g. Grow slightly slower imo due to having 8x the number. This bunch will be going to the growout tank this week.


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## Hadoken Kitty

They're still super cute!!! The stress stripes are SUPER visible at that age. Is that something you've found to be normal? Or does it depend per fish like in older bettas?


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## logisticsguy

Yes its normal for young betta its a natural self defence kind of like camouflage. Mine grow out of it in weeks 3-5 usually. If you see them in adults it usually does mean stress. 

This is not related to the spawns sorry of track, but I just caught my boy Leroy and Storm in an embrace just now and thought it was cute.


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## Hadoken Kitty

OMG...that picture...So amazing!!!


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## Flapmon

That's so cute!


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## MattsBettas

LEROY IS BREEDING! Good for him (finally getting it right) and yay!


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## Hadoken Kitty

I love his finnage, by the way!!!


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## Mahsfish

Wow just spawn after spawn. Gonna be a busy man CJ. But well worth it. If love to get fry off them. Can I get first dibs? Haha. We might have to trade this spawn maybe anyways. Mine are so small they woul probably be closer to these guys with Leroy. Plus it's better to breed out to minimize the scale deformities. 

Good luck


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## herefishy77

Are there generally water issues in Canada for breeding?


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## logisticsguy

For the most part it is pretty good. The city I live in is famous for cichlid breeding because the water has a very high ph and is very hard. Not exactly perfect for betta breeding. Most places in Canada have lower tap params than I do. It can be harder to hatch eggs and the fins of HM can curl up here.


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## herefishy77

That is probably why it is impossible to find breeders in canada that have some to sell!


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## logisticsguy

There are actually quite a few breeders in Canada. Most have better water params than I do, there are things you can do to get the params in line but it does take some effort. What kind are are you looking for? I know quite a few breeders and probably know someone with good stock depending on what you like.


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## herefishy77

Can you email me at herefishy at gmail


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## logisticsguy

Sure. Im off to do a quick job but you will see an email from me soon.


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## herefishy77

Ahhh crap. My email is [email protected] Apparently my attention to detail sucks.


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## logisticsguy

Message sent herefishy. 

Spawns are doing well no losses so far and the younger f2 spawn is getting some color and good fin growth. Hope to get some new pics up soon.

Leroy abandoned his nest then started snacking on eggs so he was removed.


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## dramaqueen

Bad Leroy. Lol I'm glad your spawn is doing well.


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## Ickbeth

:BIGweepy:bad fishy


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## logisticsguy

Smokey X Storm 6 week old fry





































I like this girl she might be the f3 female.










The Chuck Norris x Star spawn


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## Clayton1089

my fry are 4 weeks old tomorrow and are nowhere near that size


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## logisticsguy

There are some epic baby betta battles going on. They just love to play fight. There is no way these spawns will be able to co exist as long as the f1 parents. Its like watching pro wrestling in the tank. Aggressive little munchkins with a bad attitude. One fry did not recover from sbd but otherwise all are healthy. NLS Grow is now a small part of the diet along with nhbbs and a frozen food called Freshwater Frenzy that the fry go nuts over.


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## Mahsfish

My fry are probably one 30th the size


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## logisticsguy

The smaller fry in my last spawn were way behind the big ones and in the end caught up for the most part. At 4 months you could not tell which ones were huge or small when they were very young. Im trying to grow for health mainly and not typical gut stuffing power grow. The hardest thing for me was to get better with the live foods and getting used to amount and frequency of feeding. The behaviour of the fry determines when they are fed and how much. Im changing water every 2 days 70% and that seems adequate at this point keeping g hormones down. This is my favorite stage now as they are getting much more colors and fin development.


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## Mahsfish

Good luck. Yesterday I noticed some sort of mutation or fungus or something odd on one of my fry. It appeared to have large white coloured pectorals. I know that your fish don't carry EE pretty sure and the father isn't EE so idk what this is.


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## Mahsfish

Here the guy I'm talking about


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## logisticsguy

Its hard to tell from the pic B but that looks like a healthy set of pecs from here. If you can get a close up shot it would help. I do not know of EE in the genetic tree but you never know. If it is fungus it should appear on more than just the pecs. Keep an eye on this one but looks like large pecs right now. If you see it spread let me know and will go from there.


----------



## Mahsfish

Yeah I noticed it on another fish but only on one pec. My best guess is over developed pecs and they will just grow in.


----------



## logisticsguy

This girl is from Smokey x Storm. She looks so much like her mom.










CN X Star spawn


----------



## Mahsfish

Looking good CJ. Are you going to cull and try to breed to IBC stars and like ally he fin faults and stuff? Or just breeding for hobby?


----------



## Mahsfish

All the*


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## logisticsguy

I try to keep the IBC standards in mind when selecting which ones are bred but doubt any will ever be on the show circuit. This is a hobby only and my goal is more to make healthy unique fast change marbles and giants. I had a good day at my local pet store. I used to bash them hard and drove right by as the betta care was dreadful. Until they hired a new terrific fish keeper wow what a difference one person can make. She actually cares and the betta looked great. The stock was very nice and we are working on adding me as a supplier because the chain carries very few HM due to the high price point. They have some of the nicest DTs Ive ever seen.


----------



## Mahsfish

Mine in crowfoot has bad bettas. Idk if it is the care of the supplies though. They have the small jars and the look somewhat clean. But they are neglected. All the hm are rosetails, the DeT have some really bad topelines and the rest are bad. When I was I yours I notice a lot of cool looking dt and marbles.


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## logisticsguy

I wouldn't even sell to them before because I knew the betta would be poorly cared for. We are going to start with females and a few males. It was a massive change in this store it made me so happy to see happy healthy fish. Since I criticized them hard before I have to give them credit for the positive changes. She even let me look at a couple problem fish and was happy to get my opinions on what could make the fish better. Made my day!


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## Mahsfish

That's great to hear. Hopefully they do well. I remember when I was there they had a nice Kirin parrot. Wonder it it's still there. I want a Kirin but that one wasnt great quality I've just never seen em before here


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## logisticsguy

Its time for an update. We haven't lost any fry yet and all look very healthy. Made the decision to sell them as baby betta when they are 8 weeks which will be July 3rd. I know this is young but with all the babys at store what do you do. So if anyone wants healthy babys let me know. We just fed the last nhbbs and they are all used to nls grow and love *Freshwater Frenzy* frozen it has all kinds of nummy stuff. These fry were not power grown, just fed very well with regular water changes. 
































































This one (Ziggy) is the exact image of his late grandpa


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## Riverotter

Some very nice babies there!


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## Mahsfish

Looking good CJ. Mine aren't so well. There are about 3 good sized ones at a little more than a cm which is still small and then the rest are minuscule. I have to leave for basketball so I must bring my tank to my unless house. Due to "easiness" for him the feeding will go down to once per day of a quarter of a block of frozen daphnia each day for 2 weeks.


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## logisticsguy

Oh that is not good. If your in a pinch maybe bring the tank here? You know I would feed the crap outta them and have all the supplies. You might have to help me out someday when I vacation though.  This way I could show you some feeding techniques Ive been working on.


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## logisticsguy

The baby betta are now almost 8 weeks old. They are healthy and strong enough to go to new homes now. I used to only sell them when they reached 12 weeks but with so many baby betta in stores that are smaller and much skinnier these guys should have no problem. The spawn is now used to pellets (NLS Grow) and frozen. The fry are 10 each or 5 for 40. I prefer pickup but can ship anywhere in Canada.


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## Flapmon

... So pretty.


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## logisticsguy

Thank you Flapmon. Todays project is moving them to a 55g grow out. The fry have gotten big and need more room.


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## BeautifulBetta123

CJ is the first one a female?? If soo....


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## logisticsguy

Hi bb123 great to see you! I think that is a female but you know I am not so good at sexing. We nicknamed her "Lipstick". If you would like I could take some more pics and you could help me make sure its a girl. It would be great if you took her, she is a cutie and her colors are starting to come out.


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## Asira

Wow, they're so beautiful.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Yeah, mind holding onto her until we can tell for sure she is a girl because the last thing I need is another male :/ 
She is definitely a cutie and I would be willing to add her to my sorority. 
Only posting here because it is about buying a fish.


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## Mahsfish

Ohh bb123 if that's a female we might have bidding war. Hahah. I have a male that I named lipstick because of the same coloring.


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## Mahsfish

But I'll let you have it since you saw it first


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## Mahsfish

Here is my Lipstick


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## MattsBettas

I would definatly buy some and would love to support you but I am done with long fins! I'm sorry. They are absolutely beautiful though.

I have three fish coming from a person in Calgary and Shae and I are meeting sometime over the summer...


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## logisticsguy

Hey I hear you about the long fin Matt it can be a pita. Ive noticed some improvements in scales and tail quality in the f2. Lots of variation still and some unique looking fish. In the next few days Im going to start numbering their pics to keep track. Took 10 babys to the store today and just got a call that they sold already with good comments from the customers so made me happy. Ive got so much fish work to do its ridiculous not that Im complaining (maybe I am) but it is so hot that my energy is near zero.


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## Mahsfish

Don't be talking CJ. I'm in Utah and idiaho and its 45 here. 

And if you don't mind me asking, how much are the stores offering you. That might be one of my options to sell fry.


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## eden000

Absolutely gorgeous! If I had the room/money for a second betta, I'd definitely be wanting one


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## logisticsguy

Mahsfish said:


> Don't be talking CJ. I'm in Utah and idiaho and its 45 here.
> 
> And if you don't mind me asking, how much are the stores offering you. That might be one of my options to sell fry.


45C Holy cow that's brutal! I would melt. Im getting 10 each but they complain its too much lol. Then they charge 20. So the store makes same as me for holding them for an afternoon as I did for working on the spawn for over 2 months. The store considers 10 bucks to be a premium so you may or may not get that. Each store operates differently, some will buy from private breeders others only from wholesalers.


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## logisticsguy

The fry are 9 weeks old growing up fast. A healthy bunch of oddballs.


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## MattsBettas

I like the red one.


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## logisticsguy

The red ones name is Fruitloop and he is a crazy lil fish. He thinks he is a "Fighting Fish" and picks fights constantly. I noticed he has a few fin nips so maybe not as tough as he thinks he is lol.


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## Mahsfish

Wow mine are 9 weeks to and are still minuscule. I haven't seen them for a week and a half so hopefully they have grown lots since then but haven't picked fights. They are getting powered pellets in the morning and me at night. No water changes though. 

Wetspot was great. But no bettas to bring home. Best LFS I've been to. Rows of crystal clean tanks and great variety. Bettas looked young and I could find all the wilds so I didn't get any


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## logisticsguy

Yes that wetspot looks like quite the place. The Lake Malawi cichlid selection is incredible. I may be ordering online there are some fish Im really interested in getting. If anyone has a giant hm female please let me know. Humphrey is so lonely and all my girls just freak when they are near him no matter how much conditioning it seems.


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## Mahsfish

I know you probably wouldn't use them for breeding. And I have no idea how big he is but riverfront had some really big delta and maybe hm females I was there last time.


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## Mahsfish

I wanted to take a picture to show you guys but couldn't. If you look on the website though the pics of the tanks are 2 separate parts in the store. So that many tanks. Plus in the back they have tanks for breeding, I took a peek but it was employees only so I couldn't tell what fish. I really want some endlers now though after seeing them in person. I'm always on AB looking at them. I'm thinking of breeding guppies with a striving goal. Starting with a good looking male and female from an LFS and I will cull and select breeder stock for biggest fun age and best coloring to better understand genetics to help with bettas aswell


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## logisticsguy

We measured Humphrey yesterday because ever since he started getting used to pellets his appetite increased and he is eating 20+ nls betta pellets a day and it looked like he was growing again. So he is a little over 5 inches mouth to penuncle which is about 1 inch growth since we got him.


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## Mahsfish

Dang. Ok nvm. He's massive


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## MattsBettas

Wow. That's a big fish. How big is his tank?


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## logisticsguy

He has his own 25g tank now he picked up some growth after the move from a 10g. I found a female who seems pretty good with Humphrey at least some flirting and she didn't get stress stripes.


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## Mahsfish

Nice. And I know you guys probably won't be as excited but I'm getting a pair of blue gene jack Dempseys. 5" right now CJ same as your betta haha.


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## logisticsguy

Blue gene Jack Dempseys are gorgeous Mah. You would not believe how hard its been to try and get my giant to breed argg. I think I will have to order a giant female or 2 from Thailand to get this to work. My giant girl just loved him but my regular HM females just too scared it seems. Ive tried 6 different girls with no luck. Likely much better in the long run to get another good giant girl anyways.

The spawns are in good shape and I will post pics of the fry soon. Some of the lower quality fry have already been sold at the store but Ive kept the better ones for possible breeders.


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## dramaqueen

I can't wait to see some fry pics.


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## MattsBettas

Excited to see more pics!


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## logisticsguy

We used to do 50% daily water changes for the fry but in a 55g growout Ive given up with that (could not keep up and folded) and only do 10g change every 3 days. They are big enough for their age anyhow so not worried about it. We havnt had any illness or deaths in the spawns and have removed a few males to their own 5g cuz they were getting mean. There are some nice females imo if anyone wants more girls.


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## Mahsfish

Did the X factor in the scales play a role in the fry this time?


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## logisticsguy

There were about 6 fry that had a scale issue out of 143. None were ridiculously bad but flaws for sure. Greatly reduced % from f1 but I suspect there will be scale flaws in the f3 as well at a further reduced number.

On a happy note Humphrey the giant is currently wrapping his gf as I write. They have been in spawn tank for 12 days!! Kudos to the female what a brave trooper she is large girl from my f1 and like her Mom went almost black before breeding. The big boy seems to place his eggs all over and not in a nest just like last time, any advice on what to do when a male does this?


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## MattsBettas

That's great! If any hmpks pop up from that spawn let me know. Are you going to get a giant girl for him so you can get giant fry?


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## logisticsguy

Oh for sure! Im hoping for half giant HM and hg hmpk will be in there too I hope lol. Ive ordered 2 giant girls from the same breeder but they wont be available for shipping for about a month. If I can get this spawn to go it would be the chance to introduce marble then x back with the giants to try for a Giant marble HM. I can tell you that breeding giants is more difficult for a variety of reasons. 

1. they are more temperature sensitive.
2. space requirements are important. You need massive water for massive giants. 
3. They will eat ridiculous amounts of food but are picky and will hate pellets. They need live food at first and a period of adjustment to pellets. 
4. Not agile at all in wrapping even giant to giant. Big lugs who seem to be super sloppy nesters.
5. Generally have a shorter lifespan and take longer to mature.
6. to get true giants you need the gene to be there on both parents genetics.


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## Mahsfish

If you get some hook I will also hopefully be able to get some for my Hopkins project here.


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## sixcards

How much for the females?


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## logisticsguy

sixcards said:


> How much for the females?


Hi Sixcards. All the fry are 15 each or 2 for 25. They are about 11 weeks old.


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## logisticsguy

This lil guy named Fonzi had to be moved out of the grow out to his own 10g tank he was not playing well with others. Now he looks kinda lonely and lost in a new tank.


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## logisticsguy

This chubby little girl is a sweet heart. Personality much like Mom and Grandma who are special to me.


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## BeautifulBetta123

Any pics of Lipstick??


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## sixcards

Do you ship to Wisconsin??


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## logisticsguy

I wish I could ship to you sixcards. Here is the problem. Shipping from here to US is ridiculously expensive. Its bad enough within Canada but going across the border adds even more and a bunch of stupid paper work. For the amount it would end up costing it would be better for you to buy in USA. Which makes me sad because I would love to sell to US customers and ship to my US friends but it is simply not cost effective for you even though you are not far from Canada at all.

Competitive disadvantaged Canadian,

CJ


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## sixcards

Okay, Bummer!! I love your female bettas!! They are all beautiful!


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## RedCassette

The offspring have such beautiful eyes! I see lots of blue and green tints. Very cute.

Can I ask where in Canada you are? I'm also Canadian and may be interested in buying from you sometime in the future.


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## Mahsfish

The blue in the eyes indicates its colours. The blue shows that it carria blue irids. In show irids should be kept to 0 or minimum. 

Not trying to downgrade your fish CJ just notifying others. To help breed top quality


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## whatsupyall

Mahsfish said:


> The blue in the eyes indicates its colours. The blue shows that it carria blue irids. In show irids should be kept to 0 or minimum.
> 
> Not trying to downgrade your fish CJ just notifying others. To help breed top quality


There are iridescence class and non iridescence class. Definition of 'top quality' varies from time to time, place to place, person to person. People who show fish know what they are looking for, people who don't probably don't care of show quality. Not everyone who buys fish breeds them for show. Obviously these people who have shown interest wants to keep them as pets. Logisticsguy seems like he just wants to make a buck or two for his hard work.... Your comment breaks my heart.


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## Mahsfish

I'm sure it didn't break your heart. I was just stating to make sure you knew if you ever wanted to breed for show


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## logisticsguy

99% of the fish on aquabid are not show quality fish. 100% of fish at the lfs are not show quality. To get true show quality fish that have a chance to compete at ibc shows you would likely need to purchase top stock from breeders that actually compete and get points at this level. Breeding true show quality requires an investment in time, facility and travel that would be impossible for me ever. There are a ton of breeders on the internet that will tell people they have show quality...well lets see how many points they have and competitions they actually place in. 99% of these guys do not sell real ibc show quality as well. Most members here own pet quality fish just like me.

My fish are NOT show quality. Did not really think that had to be said actually.

I breed cool looking unique marbles for aquabid and petstores and try to keep ibc standards in mind when picking breeders. Any fish I produce would be considered high pet store and middle of the road aquabid. 

There are a couple true show quality breeders that are members here. If anyone wants to know who just pm me. Pretty sure you wont find real show quality for 15 bucks a fish.

Anyways this is a check outta here for me. Good luck everyone.


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## whatsupyall

Actually, show quality are not as rare as we would think. Many fish on AB have potential to create offsprings that would definitely place; however, placing is heavily dependent on what kind of fish are sent to the show.Your fish have potential, but I'm sure you're not even showing the best of the spawns. The term use of 'show quality' is over rated. You have good fish, don't be discourage. I hope you didn't refer to checking out as in leaving for good. Would be a shame.


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## MattsBettas

People who want opinions tend to ask for them. Just sayin'. Can we please keep the comments and stuff polite?


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## Mahsfish

AB fish like CJ said usually have many flaws. There are only a small percent who have true show quality and good starter stock. 

Any fish can have potential. You can work with only like 4 fish to start a show Line even if the fish are bad. It will just take years and years and years to breed out the bad traits. 

Many AB breeders lie and don't have show stock


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## logisticsguy

Frankly Mah your hardly qualified to be giving anyone here advice on what is or what is not quality or show fish. You need to get a better handle on the genetics and standards yourself before dishing out opinions or critiques on anyone's fish. Your experience and success with these fish is very limited to say the least.


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## Mahsfish

I believe I do have decent grasp on standards. I agree I do not have expirience to have enough knowledge on genetics yet. That being said, I have gained an eye for flaws and critiqing bettas.


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## whatsupyall

Mahsfish said:


> AB fish like CJ said usually have many flaws. There are only a small percent who have true show quality and good starter stock.
> 
> Any fish can have potential. You can work with only like 4 fish to start a show Line even if the fish are bad. It will just take years and years and years to breed out the bad traits.
> 
> Many AB breeders lie and don't have show stock


No, I disagree.


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## trilobite

:shock:


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## LittleBettaFish

I have to say Mahsfish I have seen you in a few spawning threads/journals talking down other members' fish as not being show or 'top' quality. 

Not everyone wants to breed show quality fish. The actual population of betta owners who show their fish is vastly outnumbered by those who just want pretty pets. 

Continually telling people (who are most likely aware of it themselves) that their fish are not show quality is rather rude.


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## Mahsfish

I font mean to talk down to any nor do I believe I have been.


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## trilobite

I didnt see any downgrading of fish, infact he even said "Not trying to downgrade your fish CJ just notifying others" 
He just gave a handy tip for seeing what traits a fish is carrying eg their eye sign


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## Mahsfish

Thanks tri I appreciate it very much. 

I am sincerely sorry if any one felt insulteby my words I defintently did not mean to. Maybe it is just the interpretation difference betweeny saying it in a sincere tone and reading it in your own interpretation of my tone


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## whatsupyall

Regardless of what Mahsfish's intentions are, this thread is not the place to be giving tips and notifications of what show quality should be. It's a spawn log carrying into classified, and therefore, those comments seem rude in my opinion because it's on this very thread where people are showing interests in buying fish, yet are informed AND misinformed of unnecessary information that were not asked for. And like wild bettas mentioned, this is not the first time, therefore, I felt I needed to speak up. If Mahsfish seriously want to help, there's a section on this forum called 'show bettas'. Post your thoughts and concerns there about show bettas, I'm sure it would be better appreciated there.


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## dramaqueen

I know it's been awhile since anyone posted on this thread but I don't believe Mahsfish meant any harm. Let's continue to discuss the spawn and stay away from critiquing or discussing if a fish is show quality or not.


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## Mashiro

Any updates? :-D


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## dramaqueen

I'd also like to hear some updates.


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## MattsBettas

Any updates for us?


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## Mahsfish

Ill join the the group of people asking for updates. Hahah. Hope all is well


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## Flare101

Definitely am in need of an update. This is what keeps my attention these days.  Great fish, sir. Really like them all.


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## logisticsguy

Flare101 said:


> Definitely am in need of an update. This is what keeps my attention these days.  Great fish, sir. Really like them all.


 
Thanks Flare101 Yeah sorry so long for updates just crazy busy. 

So had 143 fry to start. I messed up early over fed bbs in critical stage and have 9 permanent sbd victims. I was going to cull them but couldn't do it cuz despite the disability they were otherwise healthy. We put them in their own tank. its pretty deep and has a strong flow so the little guys have to swim hard. this has become one of my favorite tanks the fry all swim like they have a stone attached to their bottoms but they are a blast to watch and are as cute as can be.

Ive had 3 die since hatch. 100 fry were sold at local pet store, 11 were sold to members here leaving 29 fry left in the grow out. I will keep 2 males and 4 females around for possible breeding an f3. There are still a few nice ones left but quite a few of the remaining fry have a lousy tail, odd color patches or generally un photogenic. 

Every spawn is a learning experience and learned lots since the start of this spawn. The fry are really smart and training them via food has been easy. I will try to get some pics of the remaining bunch up tonight. Raising fry is a big job but I honestly love looking after them.


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## Mahsfish

Is it too big of a hassle to ask for pics? I'd really like to see what can out in f2. If possible I know we'd all love to see pics


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## logisticsguy

No problem at all. I will get some up tonight time permitting. There were not as many unique marbles like panda, quick change. piebald ect as in the parents spawn which was a little surprising. Also a wide variety of tail quality, some were great and some just shabby messy at best.


----------



## Mahsfish

So bad tails, as in like rosé and feather tails? And so did the spawn have lots of solids and butterflies then? And not as many changing marbles like you said? What colours did they turn out to be? Like lots of blues, reds ect?


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## logisticsguy

Yeah there were some feathertails and a few rosetails. There were a couple that looked combtail even. One boy has the longest anal fin Ive ever seen just ridiculous. There were some excellent HM shape and not much scale issue in this spawn at all. Lots of butterflies and solids, hardly any blues( really strange) but a rainbow variety of colors from orange. yellow, cello, purple and pineapples.


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## logisticsguy

Here are a few pics of the remaining fry. 










Not just another pretty face










This finny guy has the longest anal fin Ive ever seen.














































This guy has about 5 sky blue scales on his side




























This is the largest female of the spawn she is a very big girl


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## logisticsguy

Here is a pic today of the Mom, Her name is Storm and she a super smart fish with lots of character.


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## MattsBettas

Everyone looks great, CJ!


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## jadaBlu

Darn! Too bad you're in Canada I'd buy a few.


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## Mahsfish

The one with the 5 blue scales is interesting. Any others like that? Could be a variation of the "fancy" spot bettas on AB and stuff


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## logisticsguy

Yeah he is the first and only one to do this. I will get some better pics it looks pretty cool. The store just ordered 10 more so the best of the spawn have kind of been picked over and slowly turning into a small sorority lol as only a few males left besides the 4 fry kept for possible breeding. Im really just happy to get so many a decent home. I have noticed that the fry have grown slowly lately but fins on some of the smaller ones are developing a little bit better. It is also getting rough in the grow out as some of the boys scrapping more so jars are coming soon for them.


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## Flare101

logisticsguy said:


> Yeah there were some feathertails and a few rosetails. There were a couple that looked combtail even. One boy has the longest anal fin Ive ever seen just ridiculous. There were some excellent HM shape and not much scale issue in this spawn at all. Lots of butterflies and solids, hardly any blues( really strange) but a rainbow variety of colors from orange. yellow, cello, purple and pineapples.


You talked about scale "issue" here. I'm new to keeping Bettas, so I'm wondering what this is. What defines the scales as "quality" or as less than desirable?


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## Mahsfish

Non symetrical scales. CJ should have a
Pick of rocky who is from f1 who had lots of this


----------



## snowflake311

Thats very cool I love to see the end result of a spawn.


----------



## logisticsguy

It took some digging but this is Rocky. He is classic scale issue fish. He was not bad but had the worst scales ever poor guy. Last seen he was living it up in a 30g of his own at a wealthy gents house. Lucky the f2 had none with such a big problem as uncle Rocky. I will try to get some pics up of the ones left in the spawn as they are starting to marble up more and on a growth spurt.


----------



## Flare101

That's really interesting. There's a lot more to take into account when breeding Bettas than I would have thought. Beautiful betta anyway.


----------



## logisticsguy




----------



## Jennifer Vazquez

OMG Logisticsguy! I am jeolouse of all your tanks. If I had that many tanks my husband would divorce me.lol!


----------



## MattsBettas

Lol... That isn't all of them...


----------



## logisticsguy

Yeah there are about 7 more tanks you cant see in the pic and 5 1g containers with a fish, so Im lucky the wife is good about it. I want more space but she isn't budging on that so I must be even more creative or kick a kid outta the house  the key to keeping cost down is looking for good deals on 2nd hand aquarium stuff many tanks were free, the most paid for any tank was 25 bucks and often included heaters, filters and décor. Lots of power cleaning involved but well worth it. Water change day can be lots of work.


----------



## TruongLN

I have a 30 gallon that has mild hard water build up for $20 ;D


----------



## Flare101

Is it too early to start anticipating an f3 thread?


----------



## logisticsguy

Yes I do plan to do an F3 actually. The juvi f2 need a little more grow time but in about a month doing another spawn and see what pops up this time.


----------



## Flare101

Alright well I anticipate it! I'm expecting some really cool f3's.


----------



## Mahsfish

Update? Hehe


----------



## TruongLN

Agreed with Mah!


----------



## logisticsguy

I have about 8 males and 6 females available from this spawn for free if you can pick up. Im keeping 4 from the spawn for breeding f3. Im going to do some pics of the bunch soon. Here is a pic of an unique boy named diamond. I call him diamond because of the diamond shaped colorless area on his back and dorsal, never saw one like him before.


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## Mahsfish

Hey CJ I could pick them up maybe. I've got to move some fish out first but I'd really like to move out all my cichlids and guppies except my fry that will keep the 50 gal. 

But I wouldn't be able to get em until after Christmas as I will be gone for holidays and don't want to have a keeper worrying about to many fish to feed and they end up dying. 

Do you have pics of them. And diamond is really end with the spot there


----------



## DBanana

logisticsguy said:


> I have about 8 males and 6 females available from this spawn for free if you can pick up. Im keeping 4 from the spawn for breeding f3. Im going to do some pics of the bunch soon. Here is a pic of an unique boy named diamond. I call him diamond because of the diamond shaped colorless area on his back and dorsal, never saw one like him before.


Wish I was in Calgary SO MUCH.


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## Mahsfish

I meant neat for diamond not end.


----------



## TruongLN

Diamond is TOO beautiful!


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## uglykitty429

So cool. Diamond. Very suiting.


----------



## TruongLN

Any photos of females?


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## ynahanson

Hello im interested in a few females to get my sorority tank filled.


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