# Ok I'm trying these guys again.



## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Ok so I decided to try Saiprus and Shiny again. The spawn will hopefully be on Monday October 5th. I started conditioning them yesterday....Saiprus ALREADY has a nest!! Ok so from yesterday to October 4th (I'm gonna float them in the tub at night and release him in the morning, and put her in a jar) they will be on the following schedule: freeze dried bloodworms in the morning, HBH Betta Bites at night, and a 50% water change daily (they're in my cheap 1/2 gallon divider tank, ya scold me). 

For the spawning set up:
16.5 gallon plastic tub
50 watt heater set at 82 degrees
Plenty of plastic plants
Styrofoam cup
a jar for Shiny
a bag of decaffinated tea


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Good luck! Can you pull him out of there if he starts to eat his eggs?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

dramaqueen said:


> Good luck! Can you pull him out of there if he starts to eat his eggs?


 I think he'll be ok this time. I read that a lot of bettas eat the eggs on the first attempt.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

oh, ok. Well, hopefully he got his fill of eggs last time.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

dramaqueen said:


> oh, ok. Well, hopefully he got his fill of eggs last time.


 Ya good thing it wasn't Shiny. Females will come back for eggs again and again.


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## iheartmyfishies (Sep 14, 2009)

Oh good luck! All my best wishes going out to you! Yay~


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## dr2b (May 31, 2009)

Good luck! You can doooo it!


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## Rohland (Aug 20, 2009)

good luck, are you trying the tea?


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## Vikki81207 (May 27, 2009)

Yeah thats why I don't have as many babies, because Merlin munched both of them. I hope this one works out for you.


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## AngelicScars (May 5, 2009)

Good luck!


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

im curious, are you spawning them in the tub or in the 1/2 gallon?


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

i also meant to ask what types are they both?


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

Yay!!! Good luck!!!!!!!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

ChristinaRoss said:


> i also meant to ask what types are they both?


Male: pure black double tail
female: dragon double tail female, kind of green in color. There are pics on the thread labeld "Finally!!"



ChristinaRoss said:


> im curious, are you spawning them in the tub or in the 1/2 gallon?


 Spawning in the tub. Conditioning in the half gallon.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

i read that the second batch of offspring is truer genetically to what youll get. if this is their secong attempt, im assuming due to genetics, if i fully grasp it, they should produce up to 50% black and the rest steel colored, because the green is only codominant.

im interested in what you end up with


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

ChristinaRoss said:


> i read that the second batch of offspring is truer genetically to what youll get. if this is their secong attempt, im assuming due to genetics, if i fully grasp it, they should produce up to 50% black and the rest steel colored, because the green is only codominant.
> 
> im interested in what you end up with


To bad I can't inbreed a double tail to double tail isn't the best idea. But I have a male (Keiko, he's also pure black ) who will be spawned to the same female to hopefully be able to cross to the fry from this spawn. And yes I will be using the tea.


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## andakin (Aug 10, 2009)

keep in mind that the female has released her eggs days ago. will one week be enough time to fully produce more? perhaps you should prolong it a few more days.

we already had our discussion on dtxdt, so i guess you have your mindset on it.



ChristinaRoss said:


> i read that the second batch of offspring is truer genetically to what youll get. if this is their secong attempt, im assuming due to genetics, if i fully grasp it, they should produce up to 50% black and the rest steel colored, because the green is only codominant.
> 
> im interested in what you end up with


a second attempt is different from second generation. as for what he will end up with, it will be 100% double tails. i question the health of the offspring though.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

andakin said:


> keep in mind that the female has released her eggs days ago. will one week be enough time to fully produce more? perhaps you should prolong it a few more days.
> 
> we already had our discussion on dtxdt, so i guess you have your mindset on it.
> 
> ...


The only reson I want to do this cross is because I want to create a line. Which is why I'm gonna take the best one from this spawn and the best from the other spawn and cross them. Since the first ST to DT spawn is all ST breeding to their half siblings shouldn't be a problem.
I will take care on raising the spawn though. I guess I could condition them for an extra week but I already have everything planned out.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

no i didnt mean second generation, i meant second attempt. ive read that the second attempt can produce healthier more reliable genetics. 

The double tail trait is very similar to that of the cambodian trait in the fact that is also a recessive trait. A fish needs both recessive alleles to be a double tail and only one dominant allele to be a single tail. 

Allele - One of a pair of genes located at the same position on both chromosomes. In other words, each chromosome has a gene that codes for doubletailr. That gene in is referred to as an allele. The matching chromosome has the same exact allele in the same exact place, thus a pair.

i wasnt commenting on the tails, i was commenting on color


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## andakin (Aug 10, 2009)

i cant seem to grasp my mind around how the genetics of the offspring will improve with a second batch from the same parents.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

well from what IVE read, its because the first batch isnt quite right, for lack of better words. 
i think its because the parents have now already reproduced so it somehow makes the new batch into healthier babies. that the first time any of them breed isnt always wat the next batch will.
it also depends on whats dominant and recessive.

i dont claim to understand it all either lol


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

andakin said:


> i cant seem to grasp my mind around how the genetics of the offspring will improve with a second batch from the same parents.


Same here. I see how you could get more eggs and faster spawning (as the pair has their mojo goin).


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## andakin (Aug 10, 2009)

i am not trying to rag on you for what you have read. i just believe its a false claim. an egg is an egg, a sperm is a sperm. i hope kiddies arent reading this. a properly conditioned fish will produce quality egg/sperm whether theyre virgins or not.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

well i dont take it as "ragging" on me lol

your entitled to your opinions


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## andakin (Aug 10, 2009)

thats good. i just didnt want you to take it negatively. i always try to back up my claim with a reason for thinking the way i do.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

andakin said:


> i am not trying to rag on you for what you have read. i just believe its a false claim. an egg is an egg, a sperm is a sperm. i hope kiddies arent reading this. a properly conditioned fish will produce quality egg/sperm whether theyre virgins or not.


 Eww hello 13 here!! Just kiddin LOL. @Christina Ross I hope you're right bout 50% blacks and 50% steel colored!!


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

mrvampire...........i put up a thread on determing the genetics http://www.fishforum.com/breeding-betta-fish/genetic-basics-breeding-bettas-29907/ i think i understood it correctly in what i said

i hear ya andakin.....it makes sense to me because the first time a pair spawn theres "typically" 50-100 eggs
while after the first breeding theres a significantdifference in amount of eggs produced. the fish are more mature, their bodies have already done this.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

just like in saying that the more you breed a betta, the quality goes down. theyve breed too much and or their older


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Genetics is a very interesting subject. I'm glad you guys are discussing this in a nice manner and respecting each others' opinions.


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## Lady Ivy (Aug 1, 2009)

Show pix ok


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Lady Ivy said:


> Show pix ok


I will 



ChristinaRoss said:


> mrvampire...........i put up a thread on determing the genetics http://www.fishforum.com/breeding-betta-fish/genetic-basics-breeding-bettas-29907/ i think i understood it correctly in what i said
> 
> i hear ya andakin.....it makes sense to me because the first time a pair spawn theres "typically" 50-100 eggs
> while after the first breeding theres a significantdifference in amount of eggs produced. the fish are more mature, their bodies have already done this.


 Totally get what your sayin. Thanks for the link


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Ok so tomorrow is the last day of conditioning. They'll be placed in the tank early monday morning. Shiny is full of eggs and Saiprus is building some good nests


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Good luck!!


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## k stiles (Aug 29, 2009)

I offer you best of luck


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

Good luck!!!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

*Pics!!*

So my impatience got the best of me last night. So Saiprus is in the tub and Shiny in the jar.
Condtioning:







Spawn setup:







Courtship pics:


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I hope everything is going well!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

dramaqueen said:


> I hope everything is going well!


 He's already starting a nest


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Great!! I hope you have eggs tonight!


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

Awesome!!! Nice pics BTW


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

doggyhog said:


> Awesome!!! Nice pics BTW


 Really? I used my cell so....


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

Yeah! They are nice pics.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

doggyhog said:


> Yeah! They are nice pics.


 Thank you


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Ok his nest is getting bigger. Still pretty small but growning. Should I release her?


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## iheartmyfishies (Sep 14, 2009)

If he's still going I'd just give him another twenty minutes or so and let him make it bigger. Don't want to run out of space.  Good luck!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

iheartmyfishies said:


> If he's still going I'd just give him another twenty minutes or so and let him make it bigger. Don't want to run out of space.  Good luck!


 Ok I'll do that. Weird thing though. The last spawn was nestless......


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

Good luck! Can't stay up right now to hear the updates since I've got a major project due tomorrow, but I'll be thinking about it... and it'll be eating me up inside xD


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> Good luck! Can't stay up right now to hear the updates since I've got a major project due tomorrow, but I'll be thinking about it... and it'll be eating me up inside xD


 LOL. I'm not feeling very good so I might not go to school tomorrow and if I don't you'll see a bunch of updates


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## iheartmyfishies (Sep 14, 2009)

Dude it's not even dark here where I live.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

iheartmyfishies said:


> Dude it's not even dark here where I live.


 Pitch black here


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

Same here, it's 9:18 at night, and it got dark at 7. I'm procrastinating, in case you couldn't guess. Mr. V, hope you feel better!


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

MrVampire181 said:


> Pitch black here


Same here!! It's too cold too!:lol: I don't like winter.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Well I'm gonna go ahead and release her. LOL CodeRed!!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'll be up as long as it takes! lol Good luck, MrVampire!!


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## iheartmyfishies (Sep 14, 2009)

It's 6:37 here. XD SO what's happening!?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Ok I stayed home because I felt sick. The pair is just going through the aggresive courtship part. He continues to build the nest. Cross your fingers!!


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

:| Sorry your sick!! In one way that's good, because you can keep an eye on them better.  

My fingers AND toes are crossed!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

doggyhog said:


> :| Sorry your sick!! In one way that's good, because you can keep an eye on them better.
> 
> My fingers AND toes are crossed!


 Thanks 

LOL I have everything crossed!!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have my fingers and toes crossed too!


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

I just have my fingers, since I can't cross my toes ): I can imagine I am, though! Any news?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> I just have my fingers, since I can't cross my toes ): I can imagine I am, though! Any news?


 Nope. Idk how long it will take. The last spawn they had been together for almost a week.


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