# Betta likely dying.. please help!



## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi,

I have a pretty sick Betta, who is likely on his last legs.. and I'm no expert and that's why I'm seeking out help here.. thank you all in advance!

*Back story:
*
So, I inherited a seemingly healthy Betta back in late March. Staying with us was only supposed to be temporary, but we got very attached, and the owner gifted him to us. Since then he's been part of the family. He was even my best man at my civil wedding ceremony. As you can imagine his health is very important to me.

*So here is the state of things:*

Buster was originally brought in as a low-maintenance pet. His original owner said all she did was fill up the tiny bowl he was in regularly as water evaporated.. a full cleaning was done very infrequently. She only used distilled water too and nothing else.

When he arrived to us 6 months ago.. he was healthy and energetic. We thought since we were putting him in a much larger unfiltered/unheated gallon bowl he would be even better off (we've learned that's obviously incorrect now.. he should have a proper tank with heat/filtration). We also changed his water more often than before. We also switched to using tap with a water conditioner (Nutrafin Betta somethin'). We always prepare the water the night before and let rest overnight before changing the next eve.

prior to changing we verify the water temps (bowl vs fresh water) and will proceed only if the difference is less than 2 degrees. 

all was fine up until a month ago. One of his pectoral fins started losing tissue.. My wife looked up the cause and said fin rot.. she got some aquarium salts and swapped out his water 50%.. His energy level was the same (good).

The fin rot started to progress more despite the water change with salts.. and that's when I started researching conviction to solve his ailments.. I then realized from wonderful groups like this that a one gallon unfiltered/unheated bowl was no place for him. I immediately started researching a proper home for him. I've since purchased a 5 gallon tank with a heater/filter/plants/light.. its been seeded from a healthy tank and is just waiting for a full cycle before we introduce him.

Unfortunately I don't think the little guy is gonna make it to his new home. Here is the course of events for the past week.
*
Saturday before last*: 50% water change. Holes in dorsal fin growing fast. We keep reading that 100% water changes will stress a sick fish out so we don't do. Regular behavior... energy good.

*Tuesday: * 50% water change. Holes keep growing. ugh. wish the new tank was ready!



*Wednesday: * received API test kit. Tested for ammonia.. 4-5ppm!!!! Did a 75% water change with a gravel vac. down to about 1-2ppm. Didn't do a 100% change for fear of trauma.

*Thursday:* Added 2 anubias to help with ammonia reduction and give him a hiding place. LFS said don't feed him. Ammonia at .5-1ppm.. Did another 75% water change.. still at .5ppm.


*Friday:* Decided since everyone says ammonia *should be 0* to do a full water change and wash the bowl and gravel. I washed with regular tap.. while he was in cup. Added 1/4 dose of BettaFix for the first time. We also noticed he coughed up a piece of white mtl. My wife thinks it might be a bit of paper that fell into the bowl. The bottom of his face is pale in comparison to the rest of his body. Ammonia is now 0

*Saturday:* add full dose of BettaFix directly into bowl (instructions say treat on unchanged water for 7 days). He starts being lethargic. Still would eat but needed to be coaxed. Then read a ton of conflicting info about Bettafix and decided it was no good for him. Did a 50% water change (to not traumatize him). He then just stayed at the top of the tank with very little movement. Concerned that I may have shocked him with the Bettafix which has reports of damaging the labyrinth organ.. If figured it wouldn't hurt to put a small air stone in there to maybe give some more aeration.  Ammonia is 0. I briefly held up a mirror to get him to flare which he did, but then took it away.. He swam normally for a minute or two and he went back to just floating still. Dorsal fine unclamped a bit which was nice to see. (its always has been clamped)
*
Sunday:* 100% water change (to get rid of Bettafix), removed plastic hammock at top of bowl. Pulled the air stone as the bubbles may be agitating him. Good news: His fins are actually healing.. 1.5 mm holes on his dorsal fin are filled actually, and can see growth on his pectoral fins! but he's totally catatonic. Fed him to test response.. would eat, but only if placed directly in front of him. He is either at the bottom completely still (sometimes with labored breathing), or at the top completely still. In a rush of energy he will then get to the top for air, swim around normally for a bit then got back to complete stillness.. with just the occasional flutter of his pectoral fins.

I put a dry pellet so it could float if he doesn't eat it I could remove it. (I normally moisten the pellets a bit). He did not eat. He has no interest in my hand or any other interaction. 



*Monday:* totally lethargic. did not feed. thinking maybe its constipation? Will wait a few days without feeding and then try the pea treatment. Bottom of face very pale.


*
That's a lot of info for you all to digest.. **so.. *



I've done a ridiculous amount of reading/research and so much of its conflicting.. is this a short term ailment? shock? is he dying?
did frequent water changes put him in shock? (despite close water temps?)
since his fins are healing, does that mean he is just recovering?

 did the Bettafix hurt him? Could putting drops directly into the bowl caused this?

should his temp be warmer than 76-78?

 should I abort the tank cycling and just put him in there? (I don't think this would help much as his bowl is at proper temp already)

what is my course of action? Just give it time?
 

Please hit me up if you have any questions... again.. thank you for your help. 

-Andrew



Housing 
What size is your tank? 1 gal
What temperature is your tank? 76-78
Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? Did for a day or two but pulled it when I read that it doesn't do much since the bettas have labyrinth organs.. didn't want to stress him with the bubbles either.
Is your tank heated? No, but temp is stable.. keeping it directly adjacent to a heated tank
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? None

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari betta bio
How often do you feed your betta fish? usually 6 days a week in the morning 3 pellets.. no food in the last 24 hours.

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? before 2 weeks ago, a 100% water change every 2-3 weeks.. and 30% water changes every 4-5 days.. I know this is incorrect now.

What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Nutrafin betta conditioner (proper dosage). Recently AQ salt and a few days ago BettaFix.

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0 (a few days ago it was 4-5ppm)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate:0
pH: 6.7
Hardness: NA
Alkalinity: NA

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Yes. paler.
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Incredibly lethargic, does not respond to interaction. Only moves when he needs air.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? 3 days ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Aq salt and a start and stop of Bettafix
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No.
How old is your fish (approximately)? at least a year.


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## 3l1zabeth (Jun 28, 2012)

It could be that he is just tired. My betta got fin rot with the same symptoms that your has and i gave him maracyn-oxy and aquarium salt. once he got better he would go in the betta log i have. 2 things that you might want to purchase
*betta log(sold at petsmart)
*live bloodworms
or you could wait till he gets better but definintly buy
*maracyn-oxy
*aquarium salt

Hopefully your little guy gets better soon and i hope i helped.


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks Elizabeth..

I hope that he's just tired too.. my question is how can you tell? 

I will try the bloodworms.. 

and since his fin rot seems to be healing (despite his extreme lethargy).. I'm assuming its best to stay away from more meds until I can better ascertain what's wrong with Buster.

thanks!


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## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

it sounds like he's been through quite the time of it. I'd suggest giving him a week of just clean water, with 100% daily changes. Give him some time to recover from the medications.

Fin rot can be sneak and persistant, to put it mildly. Clean water and aquarium salt are usually all that is needed. 76-78 should be okay if it's not changing more than that. According to the board expert (OFL), bettas can normally handle the temperature changes of day and night, assuming of course it is not too drastic.

High protein food is the other thing you should try, look for 42% protein content or better. Frozen bloodworms are also a popular choice. The extra protein will help him regrow his fins.

When he gets better, you want to change your maintenance schedule, to 1 100% and one 50% change a week. To maintain water quality (and keep ammonia down).


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Welcome to the forum and sorry you are having problems...

Have you had him for a year or is he a year old, where did your friend get him...pet shop, breeder...if you know.....How long was he kept in the distilled water. just trying to get a better idea on history....To understand you have had him since March and all has been well until 2 weeks ago and the only thing wrong was fin issues you treated with water changes...correct......

Then one week ago you started Bettafix and water changes and this is when he started to have behavior changes, more lethargic, stop eating.....correct.....

Sorry, just trying to get the time-lines straight......

Current Signs/symptoms?

Have you check the source water for ammonia as well as the dechlorinator-some dechlorinator products can cause false readings.

Your pH is 6.7 out of the tap...correct.....and temp is 76-78F checked with an independent thermometer....

How are you acclimating back to the water after the water changes if you are removing him from the tank.

Right now-what I would recommend-double check the temp with independent thermometer, place him in a small container or lower the water level in the 1gal so he doesn't have to struggle to reach the surface. If you have a tannin source-either IAL or naturally dried and fallen from the tree Oak leaf...add this to the water to steep and release tannins. If he is having buoyancy problems I would start Epsom salt (_Not aquarium salt_) 2tsp/gal...Hold food for now, dim lit quiet location.

If you have access to mosquito larva-offer some rinsed and see if he will eat...Sometimes live food will stimulate the feeding response.

Can you post a pic.....


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

@ Silverfang:

you recommend 100% water changes daily.. so 100% daily water changes are okay for what is a potentially a stressed fish? I'm getting conflicting info. Should I only do it if water conditions are poor? (there is no ammonia or nitrite right now)

maybe you didn't catch it in my long post, but his fin rot has been improving while his behavior has gotten totally lethargic.

I will get him some bloodworms if he doesn't eat after a few days of no eating.





@ OldFishLady:

He is at least a year old.. he was purchased at korean supermarket in NYC.

up until April of this year, he was strictly living in distilled water (with his previous owner).. we have made the switch to conditioned tap water since then. We have only had him for about 3 months (sorry I incorrectly stated 6 months before).

He has had fin rot for about a month.. very slow progression and then rapid over the previous week.. but only dorsal and pectoral fins.. no body rot. 

we had only treated him with water changes and AQ salt for the past few weeks.. but almost never a 100% water change (we read that it traumatizes the fish). We did our first 100% water change in a month or so when we applied Bettafix 3 days ago (friday) when we couldn't get our ammonia levels down. The bettafix was a quarter dose on friday, then a full dose on Saturday. Since then his behavior has been EXTREMELY lethargic. Ammonia has been 0 since then.

Currently:

very lethargic, does not react to visual stimuli (a hand over the tank used to make him go crazy in a good way.. a finger saying hello would always get a commanding fin flutter). Occasionally breathes heavy.. Always either at the top or bottom of the tank completely still, with the occasional pectoral fin flutter. Once every 5 min he darts for some air and then swims normally for about 10 sec then returns to either the top or bottom. On the plus side, his fin rot is getting better.. no more holes in his dorsal fin, and pec fins are starting to gain tissue.

Water:
I have not checked the unconditioned source water for ammonia.. I did not know that the conditioner could provide false numbers. I will do that tonight when I get home from work.

Yes ph is 6.7... and I read the temp with an infrared thermometer gun.. its accurate to .1 degree and reads the same as the tank thermometer in my 5 gallon tank which is cycling right now (he will go into this when finished cycling)

Water change process.

this is probably where I'm at fault. His gallon bowl is tall. I get a cup fill it with his current bowl water. I start tilting the bowl, and allow the water to flow out, then when he gets close to the lip, I give the bowl a nudge and he goes right into the cup. I figure this is easier on him than netting him. I then fill up the bowl with 24 hour old conditioned tap water.. since there is no temp differential of more than a degree.. I just dump him right in. Is there a better way? I here of floating the cup, but if there is virtually no temp difference.. what does it matter? Am I being short sighted?


Steps:
I will lower his water level so he doesn't have to swim that much vertically to get to the surface.

I will seek out a tannin source (never heard of using them before).. but coming across clean oak or IAL seems difficult without ordering online.. (LFS's don't carry do they?). 

Anything else?

Did I do some sort of irreparable damage to the poor guy? Is he on his deathbed or just in some sort of shock?

I will post a pic and movie shortly..

-a


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Personally, I don't like to make 100% water changes on a sick/compromised fish...healthy fish generally can tolerate it without issue.......

What I recommend is 50% with like temp premixed treatment water

Its hard to say what is going on....but I have found over medication/treatment can sometimes make them toxic and water changes and use of Epsom salt and tannins along with time is what will help.

If your house has cool/dry air....covering the top of the container with plastic veggie wrap to retain heat/humidity for the labyrinth organ can be helpful.....Sometime if the air over the water is too cool and dry-especially with a compromised fish-it can cause problems.

The tannin source I use are the naturally dried and fallen from the tree Oak leaf from my oak trees in my yard
If you use a tannin source-add to the tank and use some in the replacement water used for water changes...The longer they steep the more tannin released the darker the water the better it is for the Betta.

When I premix the treatment water I use a 1gal jug of dechlorinated water-add the Epsom salt 2tsp/gal and the tannin source to use for my 50% water changes daily...
But first I will do 25% water changes every 15min for 1 hour to get them acclimated to the new chemistry. 
The Betta needs to stay in the premixed treatment water for the duration of the treatment period of 10-14 days. Either in a small QT container or in a small tank with a low water level covered with the plastic veggie wrap.

Both the tannins and Epsom salt are safe to use long term if needed....

Good luck


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Going back to your source water....does it go though a water softening unit on the house or is it naturally low pH.....If you do have a water softening unit and it uses salt...you my need to bypass it for the fish.....


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

OldFishLady,

thank you very much for your reply.. I will only do 50% water changes and get some Epsom salts in there asap.. I will also prescribe to the intro regimen of 25% every 15min.


as for the saran wrap on the top of the bowl.. won't that deprive him of oxygen since no fresh air can circulate (wouldn't there be co2 build up)? should I punch a few holes?

I will hit the park for some oak leaves tomorrow.. I'm assuming that a well washed and rinsed fallen/dried NYC oak leaf would be okay as long as it is clean? 

Here is a video shot tonight showing the level of lethargy from the past few days:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTJ4pgAIak

I did come home today to this though.. this lasted for about a minute or two when I came home:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v89U1_DNvq8

here are a few close up images:



















here is an image of him from a few months ago healthy (apologies for the sub par photos:











http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r626/beddini/photo3.jpg


thank you very much for taking the time to help Buster..

-andrew


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## mursey (May 9, 2012)

Aw, hope he gets better. Keep us posted.


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## WetBetta (Jul 1, 2012)

He appears overly stressed to me. Either from meds or water changes or from just being ill for a bit... :blueshake:

I would suggest raising your temp to around 82 degrees... slowly. You'd be surprised at what a difference it can make.

Keep the water level lower so he can reach air easier (as stated above). I use bubblers for ailing fish and fry tubs... just keep them on low so it doesn't knock him around any. Bettas can and do also absorb oxygen from the water as well. This will help him to not have to go to the surface for air as much.

IMHO... The shape of his container he is in is not good. Tall, skinny. I know you're getting ready to move him and all but just wanted to make a comment on that. Even with just a gallon of water... a container at 6" deep would be much better.

If he is in direct or any kind of bright light... move him or get him out from under it some how. Bettas don't like bright light and in fact should have a period of darkness... like nature.

I use Stress Coat when treating water. I know it works well for me. It helps to keep their slim coat well also.

It is my belief that moving him around from container back to container and so forth during water changes and such is not good. It causes stress. I always do my best to leave the fish in the container while doing water changes, with the exception of a 100% change of course.

Under normal circumstances, for a healthy fish, I agree as stated above I believe, that 100% water changes are a bit much. It washes away all of your beneficial bacteria needed for a healthy balance. Not to mention added stress to the fish.

I'm not by any means stating this is the case here, but, I do see a lot of "over attentive" betta owners. They observe one or two oddities and go overboard. Bettas have personalities all of their own. They will do strange things at times. I've had some that often sleep on their side, either on the bottom, or the top. I thought they had suddenly passed at first, but when I'd gently tap the side, they'd wake up and be completely normal. So, the best advice I can give anyone is to observe, observe, observe. Know what your betta's habits and movements are. But also realize that from time to time they will throw something new in. Forever entertaining for sure!

I hope this helps. And I hope Buster gets well soon! (yes, i'm one to make fishy kisses at my fish so lots of fishy kisses for Buster)

And keep us posted! All betta people like to know what courses of action really helped from situation to situation!!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

You can poke a hole in the wrap, however, its really not needed...Since you will have several inches of head space to start with-this will be enough oxygen and when you open it daily to feed and water changes this will provide the gas exchange needs.

Keep us posted....


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Hello and Welcome, I have the same Blue VT, that was in the same perdicament a few short weeks ago, I took him in as a rescue, and did the same treatment, I almost had to give up on him, for I saw the same lethargy, and refused food, and just sat in a corner, and barely breathing, it was the same as your lil guy..1st thing is tho I had a Kritter Keeper as a Hospital tank, and skipped one water change, and only treated with AQuarium salt, and then did a 75% water change, then a full 100% 

I finally got him to eat with a Freeze dried Bloodworm, and then some pellets, micro pellets, by Hakari, or Omega one are some of the best ones to get fishy's appetite goiing, and then after I did the last water change, and he started taking food, I noticed his energy level peak, try that, and everything OFL suggests as well, but in a kk, because he will have some swim room when he's ready.. then you can slowly accliminate him to a bigger tank.. Good Luck hope all works out for your lil guy..


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## Silverfang (Mar 25, 2011)

Go with OFL's advice, she's quite good


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

First off, I'd really want to say thank you to the bettafish.com community for taking the time correspond over my betta's issues and needs.. This is truly a wonderful environment to promote the sharing of info.. all based around the love for these special creatures.

*
UPDATE:*




buster is still hanging out almost 100% at the top of the bowl, and he's a little less lethargic. Responds to interaction 50% of the time instead of maybe 5% of the time.
I've reduced the amount of water to about 1/2gal so he doesn't have to work to get to the top.. (but it seems unnecessary if he's effortlessly hanging out at the top)
yesterday and today he took on a full feeding of 3 pellets.. no problem. He will take them from the tip of my finger (I do this so it won't fall to the bottom and decay). He leaps some time to get them which I'm assuming is a good response.
plastic wrap has been in place for 24 hours (no holes)
as per OFL's recommendation I've only been doing 50% water changes daily (I use a turkey baster and sucked the gravel.. and try to limit any turbulence)
today I will get some epsom salt and see if I can find oak leaves.
the cycling 5 gallon tank (where he will go as soon as its ready) was started 6 days ago.. I've added ammonia once to it, and its about down to 2ppm.. I will add more when it's 1ppm. the tank is seeded with a substrate from a healthy tank and heated to 83 to speed up growth.

*QUESTIONS:*



last night before the water change the ammonia was .5ppm and then .25ppm post 50% water change. Makes sense. My question is it preferable to reduce the ammonia to 0% with a 100% water change (and potentially traumatize him) or let him endure a small amount of ammonia (.25ppm) and keep the water more consistent and traumatize him less?
is procuring dead/fallen oak leaves from an urban environment (NYC) a no-no even if they are washed thoroughly? I obviously won't be looking at ones laying in the dog park or out of garbage can or anything, and I don't think pesticides get sprayed.. but the urban environment may introduce some baddies that I don't know about.. is it worth the risk?
I mentioned that I feed him from the tip of my finger.. is this a bad thing? Just curious what the consensus was.. if I'm training him for some negative behavior.. I figure I'm sort of simulating a bug or something flying over.
I bought some LIVE bloodworms yesterday, but hesitated, and in the interest of maintaining his precarious health.. I found out that you could potentially introduce bad news bacteria/fungus... so I aborted.. Am I being too cautious?
I also have 2 anubias sitting in the small (now 1/2 gallon) bowl with him for comfort and potentially to filter the ammonia. These were brought in about the same time he also got massively lethargic. Could there be a correlation with the plants more so than with the bettafix or 100% water changes he was subject to?
the dorsal fin is always clamped unless he's swimming rapidly, or flaring. Is this normal or is cold/uncomfortable?
His bowl is not heated, but its been ranging between 76-80 over the past few days.. should I take his bowl and insert it directly into the heated tank (currently cycling with massive amounts of ammonia) to keep it locked at something like 82 that WetBetta suggests?

@Wetbetta.. you make an excellent point about some owners being overzealous.. I read you loud and clear!!

thank you all..

-a


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

> is procuring dead/fallen oak leaves from an urban environment (NYC) a no-no even if they are washed thoroughly? I obviously won't be looking at ones laying in the dog park or out of garbage can or anything, and I don't think pesticides get sprayed.. but the urban environment may introduce some baddies that I don't know about.. is it worth the risk?


Are you looking for tannins from the oak? I don't know if I would trust anything that has been on the ground in NYC unless its in your own yard. 
I get Indian Almond Leaves via a seller on ebay with the ID Amy-lim. She is in singapore. She grades her leaves A, B, C, ect. Anyways, even if you get her C grade leaves, almost all of them are pretty big, some may have some holes or whatnot but everytime I get them, 99% of them are in good shape. Some of her auctions, she offers free shipping 
http://stores.ebay.com/Amys-Ketapang-Inc?_trksid=p4340.l2563



> His bowl is not heated, but its been ranging between 76-80 over the past few days.. should I take his bowl and insert it directly into the heated tank (currently cycling with massive amounts of ammonia) to keep it locked at something like 82 that WetBetta suggests?


If you can tape a cup or something inside the heated tank, that would be best as it would keep his cup at a steady temp. Without a heater, the temp may drop a night and going from warm to cold isn;t good for the betta.

Did you quarentine the plants before you added it to his water? Im not sure of live plants are really that much of a threat to fish but I know alot of peple say to quarentine them.


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

Tikibirds,

for $10 it seems worth it to not worry, and potentially get something that's arguably closer to the true habitat of the betta. I just ordered 

as for the heater.. I've been running the new cycling tank hot (84 degrees) to get the bacteria to flourish faster. I've lowered it, and when it balances out.. I'll drop him in a protected bowl within the tank. great idea.

the nubias in the tank were NOT quarantined.. 

as for the group.. Buster's bowl is currently at a little more than 1ppm Ammonia after daily 50% water changes. I'd really like to know if its more important to get the bowl down to 0 with a 100% change (and potentially stress the fish), than keep up with 50% changes with a seemingly constant amount of ammonia running at about 1-1.5ppm.



thank you!

-a


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

What kind of testing products are you using and have you tested the source water for ammonia....the Nutrafin betta conditioner is the only dechlorinator you are using correct...double check the dosage needs if you have chloramine in your water

What is the source water---city supplied tap?....with the 6.7 pH...is your water naturally this low of pH and do you know if it is soft or low KH/GH too...also does the water go through a water softening unit on the house and if so, is it the kind that uses salt...if it is....you need to bypass that.

Other possible source of ammonia could be from the plants-are they thriving or any dead leaves...etc.....nothing in the tank that could decomp


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## tanseattle (Jun 28, 2012)

I think he look ties. Fin rot? I did not see it. I see you put him in a small cup that is good.

I adopt a big old man betta with fin rot and popeye. I treat him 2 cycle with myacin: 5 days with antibiotic and water change + then rest 2 days without antibiotic + 5 more days with antiotic.

I used small cup to save the antibiotic and money.

He is now eat like a horse. He only flare at female and kind of chicken out if a male flare at him. He is a huge betta male. I guess he is very old.


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## WetBetta (Jul 1, 2012)

I would stick with only 50% water changes at this point. And yes, I'd still continue to keep the water shallow even though he spends a lot of time at the top.

I personally feed most all of my fish with my finger at some point. I think it's a good idea to get them to do so in case you need to feed them a pea at some point. It also gets them use to you so they don't get so stressed when you go poking around their house. However, bettas do jump any how. I have lost a few due to not having a cover on their container. Do keep a cover over the top or the water level low enough that they can not jump out.

I think the protein in the blood worms is needed by your fish and far out weighs the slight possibility of anything being introduced. They are frozen right? Freezing kills bacteria and such, but is not to say that it isn't possible that blood worms may still promote it to some degree. I use a toothpick to pick out a few worms and give to my fish.

If you can float him in the heated tank... I'd do it. IMHO, a steady temp of 82 would be best for Buster right now.

I'd buy leaves in your situation... Unless you can take a ride out to the country and grab some from a known source.


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

@ OFL

I'm using the standard freshwater API kit for my testing. As for conditioner, I've just switched to from NutraFin Beta+ to EasyLife "Fluid Filter Medium" Ultimate Water Conditioner. The LFS highly recommended it. I'm also mixing in epsom salts to the pre-mixed water.

My source water is NYC tap.. no filters or water softeners in line at all.

The nubias look quite healthy.. nothing rotting there.

I'm scratching my head about the ammonia output.. I did a 100% change and in a day it was .5ppm for ammonia. Again, tap water has 0ppm ammonia... and post treated water still 0ppm.

@ wetBetta

thanks for confirming my thoughts on hand feeding. I really like the idea of feeding him by hand to get him used to human interaction. As for food.. I was referring to the LIVE bloodworms I had.. I will try the frozen ones tomorrow if Petland has them.. and the IAL are already ordered.



update on Buster: his fin rot is clearing up.. but still weirdly lethargic (five minutes just sitting there no movement) He has been in a bowl within a heated tank (81 degrees) for the past two days with no adverse affects.. 

will his full color ever come back?

thanks everyone.. have a great weekend!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I would do a test with a clean glass of water..add your dechlorinator and see if that is causing a false ammonia reading...Some dechlorinator will change the ammonia to ammonium and the test products can't tell the difference.....


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

Hey everyone,

just wanted to give a tremendous thank you to this community for the support and guidance to get Buster over the hump. He seems to have fully recovered, and is full of energy, and is always hungry.. all good! One problem:

He is currently floating in a 1 gallon vase within the heated tank.. when he should be fully in the tank.

I'm hesitant to release him to 5 gallon tank because it doesn't seem to be processing ammonia efficiently anymore.

Here is the tank's history:

6/28/2012
filled tank, started fishless cycle 
seeded with friend's gravel


7/5/2012
First Nitrites! .25ppm
Ammonia @ .5ppm
dosed a little more than ¼ of a tsp

7/7/2012
nitrites at 2ppm
ammonia @ .5ppm (dosed almost ⅜ tsp)

7/12/2012
tested for nitrites .2-5ppm
can process ammonia overnight no problem

7/13/2012
tested for nitrites .25ppm!
nitrates 5ppm

7/20/2012
ammonia = 0
nitrites = 0
removed bacteria seeding mtl (was in a stocking directly adjacent to the filter intake)
did large 70% water change

7/22/2012
past few days NO nitrites (still light amounts of nitrates.. assuming residual)
ammonia reduction goes slowly
dosed with ammonia to 4ppm

7/24/2012
ammonia is still at 1ppm
no nitrites
very little nitrates

other vars:
my 5 gal tank is planted with a small java moss and java fern and an anubia
heated to 80 degrees
using API freshwater kit to test
use stress coat for dechlorinator (as per O.F.L's suggestion I tested straight from tap vs. dechlorinated with stress coat and it comes up with an ammonia read of .25ppm

Any thoughts on what happened to the cycle? It was there on the 20th, but then I removed the starter mtl and did the 70% water change.. then gone.. can no longer process ammonia overnight with no signs of nitrite byproduct.

Should I just keep dosing to keep the ammonia @ 4ppm and just wait it out for the cycle to start over? There is a lot less pressure now that Buster is healthy..

thanks for the insight!

Andrew


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## WetBetta (Jul 1, 2012)

When you did the 70% water change did you also clean the filter? The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if it is possible that when you did the water change and all that it destroyed at least most of your beneficial bacteria.


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

@Wetbetta

Nope.. didn't touch the filter..

Is it possible that the ammonia sustained colony takes longer to process the ammonia than the nitrite sustained colony? IE, my ammonia is getting reduced albeit very slowly.. could the nitrites be getting converted to nitrates in such low doses that it doesn't even register? (I've been testing in 12 hour intervals the past few days, and all I've seen was barely a blip of nitrites)

should I just wait this whole thing out?

thanks!

-a


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## WetBetta (Jul 1, 2012)

It is possible. There are really many variables that could be causing your readings.

I know that a lot of people here are into the extreme details and testing of the water. And that's great. I personally never test water. I've had no problems really. I just make sure to filter the water and provide fresh water upon evaporation... which is fairly regular. Only my fry do I really pay a lot of attention to water conditions and such. I'm not suggesting that anyone not test their water though by any means. I'm just saying that I don't, I've had no problems in not doing so and I keep conditions as natural as possible... thus using filtered water, apple snails and java moss. 

In my opinion, if you have been cycling the water for this long and the temp is good (around 80 degrees) I would remove him from his floating container into the larger tank. But that's me. I'd keep a close eyeball on him for the first few days. Looking for any potential problems. But I think he will be just fine. This is just what I would do. Bettas don't come from clean pure water to begin with. 

I do have 100+ various types and species of bettas. They all are fed, cleaned and maintained the same way. I've been doing this for years. I've never had the need to test the water. I have found that by simply doing things on a scheduled and regular basis... I have no problems.

And let me also say that I do respect the way others maintain their bettas... and everyone has there own methods that work for them. So before I get blasted out of the water for not testing water you should really know all the tanks and types of fish that I do keep, breed and raise. From Oscars and Jack D's to crayfish and bettas (and lots of in betweens). Yes, my house has fish in every room for the most part! :blink:


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## beddini (Jul 2, 2012)

@WetBetta

thanks for taking the time to reply.. I can totally appreciate your "let nature establish equilibrium" approach so you don't have to be over-zealously monitoring your tanks. As a newbie.. this is something that I aspire to, but since I have one (and my first) fish.. I'm just hyper critical about doing things perfectly.. 

as an aside, the good news is I figured out what was causing the abnormal fluctuations in the ammonia! I only have one eye dropper that I use for both procuring water samples AS WELL AS DELIVERING PURE AMMONIA. Although its thoroughly washed after each use, it must be still holding on to some residual ammonia (the dropper isn't glass and its bulb may be slightly porous).. 

I took a sample without the dropper.. 0ppm Ammonia vs. .5ppm ammonia.

anyway.. this proves that the tank is fully cycled..

dumb mistake.. but at least the tank is ready, and Buster can move into his new home..

thanks everyone!

-a


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## WetBetta (Jul 1, 2012)

Yay!! :blueyay:


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