# AND WE ARE SPAWNING!! I think...



## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

After intro ducing my pair on Monday, then jarring/carding my girl in the spawn tank for 4 hours, I decided to keep vigil. After a day (Tues) of chasing & bubble nest building, things were getting "friendlier" between the pair last night. I decided to stay up & watch- nothing until about 8:30 AM when Glow entered the nesting site. She stopped running. Eventually (I have no idea what time- I fell asleep) I saw the two embracing!

It's 1:30 now, and over the past hour they've clasped a dozen times. The problem is, I don't see any eggs! Butch is picking something off the floor & returning to the nest, but Glow still has her fat little white belly. If I can't see any eggs, what is going on? Both are pre-occupied with the bottom of the tank after each embrace.

I'm waiting (yawn) for Butch to chase her off. At that point, the game's up. I can't do anything else now except watch (I'm trying to be descreet- Glow is a chow-hound and I meant FOOD, so I don't want her to distract her).

How small are the eggs? I can't see them. Is this just a game? Glow has been "stunned" several times, but more often not. Maybe this is practice?


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## Alcemistnv (Jan 29, 2012)

Well here is a video of two bettas spawning.
You can see the eggs in here C:

they're very tiny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QRbHkmyQ10


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

:greenyay: WE HAVE EGGS!!!:greenyay:

I put on some coffee & viewed another embrace- this time I saw a stream of maybe 70 eggs! After Glow "comes to", she seems to be scooping up eggs and adding them to the bubble nest- is she just mimicking Butch and eating the eggs, or is she really helping??? (I know you can't know for sure, just sayin'.)


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Females actually help pick up eggs. Though some may snack on them.

Good thing you didn't disturb them spawning. Sometimes it takes several embraces just to get one right.

Congrats. Hope you end up with lots of fry.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

How long do the pair remain working together like this? They're adorable, b/c they are both a good, strong yellow. Swimming around each other, they look like one fish...

My eggs were brought into the world as a new pope! I hope this is a good sign!!! (Are betta Catholic?)


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## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

Females definitely help pick up the eggs. In fact, during my spawn (just two days ago) I noticed the this female was actually picking up more eggs than my male. She seemed to be much more studious at picking up the eggs while the male just hovered under the next and blew bubbles.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

That's what's happening now! Glow's picking up every single egg & spitting them out to Butch, who is placing them in bubbles! A bucket brigade! This is adorable & very exciting!!


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## Alcemistnv (Jan 29, 2012)

Eventually you will have to separate either the male or female, I don't remember which (think it's the female)


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

What do you plan on feeding?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Alcemistnv said:


> Eventually you will have to separate either the male or female, I don't remember which (think it's the female)


It's the female. After about 4 hours, the male chased her across the tank. I waited to see if she'd come back, but Butch has thrown himself into maintaining the nest. I've placed Glow alone w/ heater in a .5 gal acrylic tank, where she eagerly ate her live blackworms. I am not sure how long to keep her there b/f putting her back in her sorority.
Any ideas?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Jayloo said:


> What do you plan on feeding?


I have my DIY brine shrimp farm set up. I am hesitating to add the eggs b/c I'm afraid the shrimp will hatch & go bad b/f the fry are hatched & free swimming. It's a heated, aerated hatchery, and the shrimp could hatch in 24 hours- what should I do?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Wait until after the fry have hatched and are starting to go sideways, rather than up/down before feeding.. the BBS typically take anywhere from 18-36hrs depending upon how warm the water is, to hatch.. and you are right, you want to feed newly hatched BBS as they still have their egg sacs in and are more nutritious. 

Leave the female in there for a day or two, if she isn't beat up then just a day or two to recoup, but if she has bite wounds on her then I would leave her in 3-5 days to make sure she doesn't get infected. But she should be fine - eating is a good sign 

Congrats on your first spawn!!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Myates said:


> Wait until after the fry have hatched and are starting to go sideways, rather than up/down before feeding.. the BBS typically take anywhere from 18-36hrs depending upon how warm the water is, to hatch.. and you are right, you want to feed newly hatched BBS as they still have their egg sacs in and are more nutritious.
> 
> Leave the female in there for a day or two, if she isn't beat up then just a day or two to recoup, but if she has bite wounds on her then I would leave her in 3-5 days to make sure she doesn't get infected. But she should be fine - eating is a good sign
> 
> Congrats on your first spawn!!


Great!!! Thanks!
Do you mean leave Glow in her isolation tank for a day or 2? She is a bit ripped up. I gave her part of a IAL.

So many sources say to "have the brine shrimp ready" before the spawn! They never clarify if you're supposed to have them hatched & ready, or just the EGGS & equipment. What set up alarm bells for me was a good DIY video on YouTube where it shows the shrimp hatching in 24 hrs.!


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

I treated my post spawn females like they are being conditioned again for about a week. Just a medicated gallon tank and very good food. As for feeding I would also maybe get a back up culture just in case the BBS are a fail at first...


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

P. S. Will the adult bettas like more the mature brine shrimp?

Should I prepare a 2nd-3rd-4th batch of shrimp for subsequent feedings?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

If it's just torn fins, a few days should be fine. But, nothing wrong with doing as Jayloo does though  Some females bounce back quicker than others, so keep that in mind.. you will be able to judge how she is in the next day or two (while in isolation/hospital tank). No need for medication, just keep a watchful eye is all.

If you are feeding primarily BBS having 2 hatcheries going at once is ideal - set up one the morning before you will start feeding, then the second one you set up the morning you do start feeding.. keep them 24hrs apart, that way you have one hatched each morning. You can feed from the same hatch for that full day - it takes a day or two before the BBS get too big/less nutritious, so just hatch enough to feed 3-4 feedings that day (you will find the right amount - the eggs are so tiny so you don't need a whole lot).

To grow them big enough for adult bettas to eat takes a lot, and isn't easy - most BBS tend to die before bigger than a pin head. 

You will want to make sure to rinse off the BBS when you go to feed.. everyone has their own way to do it. Some use shrimp nets under a faucet, I personally will rubber band a coffee filter over a cup (make a "bowl" into the cup to hold the water in), use a turkey baster to dip to the bottom of the bottle and suck up the BBS (after removing the airline/stone and letting the BBS settle - a flashlight laying on the side facing the bottle helps to get them into one spot).. I then slowly squeeze the BBS into the coffee filter and then let it settle for a few mins.. takes a bit for the water to drain out, but this way I know I'm not losing any BBS through the net. Then I just take some tank water and pour a tiny bit over the BBS once or twice.. once the water drains out I then use an eye dropper (cheap at Walmart pharmacy) to gather the BBS and drip them in different locations within the tank to make sure all the fry see them.
Or can use a turkey baster, suck them up, squeeze them into the shrimp net and gently pour water over them for a quicker way. 
Either way works.
But you want to rinse them off so you don't add any AQ salt into the tank with the fry.

So 2 hatcheries going 24hrs apart is all you need. Keep in mind, some fry may be too small for the BBS - most don't start feeding the fry BBS until they are about 3-5 days past their egg sacs.. they either feed a micro culture (micro worms, banana worms, vinegar eels, water worms) or infusoria for the first few days, then start on BBS once the fry are a tiny bit bigger.. can continue to feed the micro cultures up until 6 weeks or so along with BBS. 

BBS can also cause swim bladder issues in some fry many believe - so many like to mix up the feedings, while others feed nothing but BBS with little to no problems. So you can judge what works best for you and yours.

What do you plan to feed them once they get a bit bigger, around the 6+ week mark?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

You've been a great help. I have a microworm culture, and I ordered some vinegar eels.
Once the fry are bigger, I have frozen food: San Francisco Bay Brand makes a "freshwater multi-pack". It has frozen brine shrimp, blood worms, plus two mixes called "Freshwater Frenzy" that is a mix of various worms, and "Emerald Entree: which has some spinach mixed in.
I feed them to my adult fish: I take a clear plastic cup, dip out 1/4 cup or so of tank water, and drop in part of a cube. I swirl the food & water for a few minutes., then drip it into the tank. Because they're hydrated, tiny bits of the food float everywhere. It occured to me that this would be great fry food.
I also have a culture of live blackworms. My adults would kill for them. I thought about chopping them up w/ a razorblade & offer them up. I also have a stash of several packets of commercial fry food... whew!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Of course, it's more a matter of what they WILL eat. I have micro-betta pellets, as well. My bettas prefer the flakes.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Should I keep the spawn tank lit 24 hours?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I also want to release some RCS to act as clean-up crew- good idea?

Am I wearing you out??? ;0)


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Myates has wonderful tips and advice. Follow her advice and I am sure you will be very successful I am sure. It is a great idea to have a variety of food on hand and not just depend on the bbs cause sometimes you simply have a failed batch for no apparent reason. I always offer a variety of food with each feeding as some fry may be pickier eaters and I have noticed once I started doing this, as adults they will readily accept and at least try new food source, even if they decide later that it is not something they may be interested in. They will at least try it. The mixture of frozen that you have would be a good idea as long as the "bits" are small enough. after a month or so it may be okay, Im just not sure how small those parts are. The fry will be extremely small. So whatever they eat has to be even smaller!

As far as the bbs, I start the first batch the first day I see little wigglers. The first day I put a small amount in the tank under the nest for any fast growers who may be quicker developers. Then I make a new batch every day. You can also set you up a simple airated tank and throw in a pinch of yeast and a pinch of spirula. And I do mean a pinch. Throw in the unused bbs and grow them out for your adult fish. Doesn't take long at all if you keep it in a warm place. I just keep it above my spawn tank and heat rises, so it stays considerably warm to not have a heater. San Fransico Bay is full of brine and the ocean therre is quick cold. So even 75 degrees for an adult brine is warm. The hatchery though you want about 80*. Mine usually hatch between 18-24 hours. But you don't want to just have bbs and nothing else cause its stressful to have a failed batch and a tank full of hungry fry!

Congratulations on your spawn!! I can't wait to see how this turns out!


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Oh yeah, the light, I leave a light on in the room, or flip the tank light over to give indirect light. Dad will get a little frantic if he cannot see his little ones in the dark.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Where do I get spirula?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

And, LL, I'm not sure what you mean about San Francisco Bay foods- is the brand good or bad?


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

I would say micro worms until day 5. Then BBS and MW mix. I wouldn't put anything that cleans up other than plants until they are a little bigger.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

You can get it at most pet stores. Just look through the fish food. Yeah San Francisco bay foods brand is a good brand. I use it. I was really talking about the actual place and the temperature. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't need to be too awfully warm to grow them out.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I had done lots of research and looking - San Fransisco Bay is a decent brand, but surprisingly Hikari has the best frozen foods, nutrition wise. Either works good, I just thought I'd toss that in 

Keep in mind for a couple of days after hatching they still have egg sacs and won't eat anything, why I don't feed until 2-3 days after first hatching. Rather not let the dead food sit there for so long (since not going to disturb daddy caring for newly hatching fry). Once they start going horizontal then they are ready to start eating - the early hatch ones.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

I second that Myates. I prefer Hikari over San Fransisco Bay, but different stores carry different brands. I wouldn't not use SFB if that is what I had.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Going horizontal- hehehe (my best Butt-Head laugh). Sorry.

Anyway, I don't think Jack is the best Dad and I'm starting to get discouraged. There are lots of eggs on the bottom of the tank, and his nest is quite small.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

If they are fertile they still have a chance at hatching.. but if they are infertile he may of just let them fall and not bother with them. He may eat them later for nourishment. I remember having a lot of eggs scattered all over - thought I only had a small number of eggs in the nest. I now have well over 500 fry  So I learned that looks can be deceiving! 
As long as he is taking care of the ones in the nest, then he is doing fine  Continue to keep an eye on him, see how he handles the fry.. then you will know the next time you spawn him whether or not to pull him early, or leave him be, etc.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

He's totally focused on the nest, and sometimes puts the eggs back. Poor baby! He looks exhausted.
Should I offer him food?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Most likely he won't touch the food. Why conditioning the male is very important.. the days/weeks spent eating multiple meals of high quality food (live, frozen, high brand pellets) a day should of built him up enough to sustain him during this time. 

I wouldn't offer him any as if he doesn't eat it then it will sit and foul up the water as you don't want to go and mess with the tank by cleaning it out now (he may view you as a threat and eat the eggs).. and you don't want rotting food sitting there. Most males won't eat until days after being pulled. 

If you are worried about him, you can pull him once all the fry have hatched, and then try to offer him food. A healthy betta can go a couple weeks with no food before side effects start to happen, if he was conditioned good then he shouldn't have trouble doing his job.

Plus, if he really wants food he will eat the eggs that aren't fertilized.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

If you have live foods like blackworms, you could put a couple of them in. My males sometimes like to have a snack or two when they are having a breather from guarding the nest/catching fry. 

Because blackworms can live in an aquarium for quite some while (I always have a few kicking around) there is less chance of them polluting the water like Myates mentioned. 

Otherwise he should be fine. Wait until the fry hatch. Then he will be a frantic father. Those fry always seem so determined to escape in all directions haha.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Can/should I drip in some distilled water? (Or is regular "Primed" water good enough- it is hard) I have a top on, but I'd like to see some fresh water added to combat evaporation.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

At this point I would do as very little as possible to the tank. I know it hard not to help.lol, but Dad's got this for now. The eggs and fry are so very sensitive at first that the slightest change in water could mean a major problem. And I leave my Dads with fry well after free swimming, and I have found they really will not take food until fry are free swimming, or not until they give up the nest sometimes. I'd be afraid to put live food in for fear it may end up going through the nest and causing a lot more work for Dad. I sometimes think, between the conditioning, the stalking the tank waiting for embrace, worrying about Dads well being, that spawning is way harder on us than on the bettas.lol


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Oh, no kidding we're the wrecks!!! I haven't taken a shower in...?
I had the week off, so I've been obsessed. I am worried that Jack will die. I put Glow is back with her buddies; she seemed miserable in her QT tank. I'll be up late watching her. She is hanging closer to the bottom that usual, but she's gone up to each fish & they seem to know she's "one of them". She seems humbled, tired, and a little dazed. Can bettas get post-partum depression? I suppose, after having a hormonal firestorm rip through her, she's not going to feel like her aggressive little leader that she is. I just hope the others don't turn on her. So far, the others don't care that she's back.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> If you have live foods like blackworms, you could put a couple of them in. My males sometimes like to have a snack or two when they are having a breather from guarding the nest/catching fry.
> 
> Because blackworms can live in an aquarium for quite some while (I always have a few kicking around) there is less chance of them polluting the water like Myates mentioned.
> 
> Otherwise he should be fine. Wait until the fry hatch. Then he will be a frantic father. Those fry always seem so determined to escape in all directions haha.


I've been pumping both pair w/ live blackworms 1x per day (then reg hi-quality food for 2nd feeding) during the conditioning. I have a hundred million left over! I could give him a few.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Just drop a couple in and see what he does. Not every male is going to freak out and eat his eggs/abandon his nest just because you do stuff to their tanks.

My wild males get their regular water changes even when they have nests and fry because I don't have separate spawning tanks. As long as you don't decimate the nest or stress him out too much he should be alright.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

That's why I wanted to add water: one edge of the nest is attached to the glass, and even though it's only down maybe 1/16th of an inch (which looks like a mile to me) I'm worried it will detach & get wrecked somehow.

Wow- wild types- do you have an info thread on that? Why did you choose wild types?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I just posted in the massive 'wild species' thread in Betta Fish Care section of the board. 

I just got sick of splendens. Too much fuss to be bothered stuffing around with them anymore. 

Sometimes I miss them (especially my sorority), but mostly I don't haha. 

Don't want to hijack your thread but just thought I would mention they were wilds in case people start thinking I was housing pairs of splendens together and jump me for it.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Don't want to hijack your thread but just thought I would mention they were wilds in case people start thinking I was housing pairs of splendens together and jump me for it.


If some people had our addresses, they'd be lynch mobs!
Wilds look like fun. I've got to save it for a time if and when I can have a large house again.

I started this as entertainment for my bored cat! He appreciates it... loves to watch dem fishys!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Others got you covered.
I'd just like to add that if you think dad can't cope with fry . . . there should be hundreds, pull him out as soon as fry hatch. if you're worried about fry, reduce water level . . . but they should be OK.

I wouldn't disturb daddy unless I had to. IMO no water need to be added at this point.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

He has extended his nest along the waterline, it seems he's shuffled it around during the night.
I've been leaving a very low-wattage light on near the tank overnight- I want him to be able to see, but not have the glare of a hood.

In fact, I dispensed w/a classic hood altogether. They are noisy when moving/turning light on/off. I just stuck a loose-fitting plastic tub top over the tank; I can move it gently & silently if I need to. 
(I want his environment to be as much like a puddle as possible). I oriented the tank to a place in my front window, a SW exposure, so he gets a few filtered UV rays (if the sun is even out, which it hasn't been!) So no harsh glare of overhead lights. I hope I'm correct in this.
He did gobble up 3 black worms I offered him! He has been staring at me as if to say "what did you get me into?" so I caved & fed him.


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## bethyMT (Nov 24, 2012)

Hey, congrats on your first spawn! You've really come a long way from just starting your sorority....hope it all goes well with the babies when they hatch! 

Also - I'm sure you've heard this...make sure you keep the water really clean when you do the microworms. If there's a lot of uneaten food at the bottom of the fry tank, it can cause deformed/nonexisten ventral fins. I do not know this from breeding experience, but my boys both don't have ventrals due to that (the breeder admitted it, it's completely OK).


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Hi Bethy!!!!
When I boought "Glow", my yellow-orange HM girl, I wanted a whole tank of her!
I searched for weeks but couldn't find the same color. I emailed her breeder in Thailand, but all he had to offer was some washed-out ones. BUT, in my searching, I found Jack in early Feb. I knew these two had to get together!!!
I only decided to breed after I got my 29 gal sorority to work 100%. I lost my original Petco baby betta, but whatever killed her turned out not to be contagious. She wouldn't have died if I pulled her out the MINUTE she started to look bloated. As it was, I gave it a day, and the other girls pulled her to pieces. So now I know: have a heated hospital tank available 24/7 & pull a girl even if she looks even slightly sick.

I don't know how to keep the bottom of the fry tank clean if I'm not supposed to touch things! I was going to add some of my RCS's, but maybe that's not a good idea??? I want to pick up the fish poop, but the eggs haven't hatched.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

To continue, NOTHING is written about the period after the spawning and when they fry hatch. All the literature/posts/videos are about how to get a pair to spawn, and then after the fry hatch!
They mated Wed. between 3-5pm; when should I start looking for fry? I want to add water, clean the tank, feed the male, but I'm told I can't. I'm "pacing the waiting room"!!! I am controlling the urge to check on the eggs every 5 min.!!!! I can now relate to expectant fathers (even though I'm a female & mom to boot): you know your going to have "children", but have no control over the process!!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

They should be hatching any time now.. 36-48hrs after spawning they may start to hatch, the time depends really on how warm you keep the temp. I had mine spawn mid day Saturday, by Monday night most of them had all hatched - I keep the temp at 84F. 

You won't see them swimming around right away, you are going to want to look for tiny tails sticking down from the nest.. be tiny tiny strings almost. A magnifying glass helps for this sometimes. They will fall straight down out of the nest, some will dart back up to it, and the father will also help place them back up. They are very tiny... have to look for the black of their eyes to notice them.

About 2 days after hatching you should see most become horizontal. They won't be swimming around yet, but they will dart a short ways. The dad may still be trying to keep them in the nest at this point as well. 

About 3 days after hatching look to see if you see their egg sacs.. if you don't see any then you can start feeding them. I would start off with micro worms, as they are smaller and easier for the fry. Some start with BBS right away, but some fry will smaller than others.. so I prefer to start with micro worms, vinegar eels.. after a few days of feeding that they should all be big enough for BBS, Banana worms, walter worms.. again, can start off with newly hatched BBS if you wish, I just go off of my personal preference. I feed 3-4 times a day.. I'm not doing a fast grow on them, but like to keep their bellies full. 

To clean.. I started the day after they were horizontal... some start after 5 days, some a week+.. but I started as soon as I started feeding live food. I use an airline tubing with a clear straw on the end that goes into the water - this way you can guide the tubing to where you want it at with no problem. Can also see if you accidentally suck up a fry... some of them get curious or don't realize to swim away.. To help, I also keep my finger on the other hand over where the water comes out of over the bucket.. so if I see a fry accidentally get sucked up I quickly stop the water flow with that finger and either wait a moment to see if the fry realizes to swim out, or can just dump the water in the tubing back into the tank. It also comes in handy for when you want to get a certain spot, but there are stubborn fry.. use that finger to stop the flow of water and then use the straw end to nudge the fry out of the way.
Remember to keep the end the water is coming from below the tank, let gravity do the work.

To get the suction going I just use my mouth.. (mouthwash for the win!), keeping an eye on the tube and as soon as I see the water go over the tank side I stop sucking. Can also try a turkey baster to get it going.. I haven't had luck using it on the small airline tubing, but a bit larger of one it should work - I use the turkey baster on my drip system tubings just fine.

I also don't add my single snail into the fry tank until the day I start to feed them - help keep the ammonia at bay, as well as I have seen the snails on the IAL/nest anchors too often that it worries me they will be on it while there is a nest/eggs. Even with live plants in the tank I have seen it.. so I just wait until the fry start to eat then I add in a snail. I don't feed the snail while it is in the tank - force it to eat the leftover food from the fry. I feed before I turn out their lights at night (around 9-10pm), give them about 10-15 minutes to eat.. lights out.. and by morning the bottom of the tank is pretty well cleaned of food. 

You will want to siphon at least once a day, if not more.. I know some do it an hour after feeding.. but I've seen some of the worm cultures live a few hours after feeding.. and with my snail I just do it once a day. Depending upon size of spawn I would recommend siphoning the bottom first, then remove the water from the top of the tank.. recommended is 30-60% water removal. Or do a few small ones a day of 10-20% if you wish. 

To add new water I used a home made drip system, adding a drop of new water every 5-20 seconds. Takes a loooong time to fill up, but it's good to do it slowly. Others will float containers of new water into the tank to get them the same temp and then slooooowly release the water into the tank. I haven't tried it this way, as I'm worried about shock - pH will be different if you use IAL in the tank. So I put IAL into the water being dripped into the tank to help keep it close to the same. 

I had a ton of live plants and a snail in there, had the sponge filter going since day one (bred in a tub in the tank, so by time I released them from the tub they could handle the sponge filter), IAL and a temp of 84F. 

At 33/34 days of age I have only found 2 dead bodies, and that was once yesterday and once today.. but prior I had not found a single dead body (snail/fry could of eaten any - but it tells me I haven't had any big die-offs) doing it this way. Have 530-550 fry at last count on Tuesday when I moved them to the grow out. At this point I am now feeding BBS every once in a while, Banana and Walter worms, sometimes mixing in some fry flake food I got from the IBC and soon will start to add in frozen tubifex, brine shrimp, blood worms chopped up finely. 

I was the same way.. learn all about preparing and breeding them.. but once you get them, you feel a bit lost and unsure and you can't seem to find a lot of info.. lol. But you'll be fine


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh, and it's okay to check every so often


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

Much of San francisco Bay brand is produced in China. Hikari may cost more but generally has higher standards and quality control systems in place. There is some excellent advise in this thread.


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## GoodMorning (Jan 19, 2013)

myates....../novel

lol


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Hush LOL

I don't realize how much I type until I post it and I'm then like.. :doh!: :quiet: :arrow:

But it's hard.. there is so much info and everyone does it differently. I just want to help  lol I also think if I skimp on descriptions, it could cause even more confusion than what I am already causing ;-)


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

Congratz on the spawn!
I saw your YouTube accounting of it,really interesting.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

My video? Thank you. It's amatuer hour, but I'm paying $$$ for this iPhone, so I may as well use it. I'll make another tomorrow; should almost be hatching time, I hope!!!

Myates, you shouls make a video, and also post pictures of your drip system. I'm designing mine in my head right now. I'm not sure what I'm doing. Is there a link?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Wow- what kind of snail do you have? I have a few mature ramshorns (they seem to die pretty quickly for me-it's my Ph, probably)
But I have an army of RCS- and they just had babies. I'm amazed at their clean-up abilities.
Should I buy a better snail? :0) Or use some RCS's?


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

I don't know how others do their drip systems,I do mine this way.
A 5 gallon plastic bucket,drill a hole near the bottom(just big enough for some airline tubing to fit in it)seal the inside and outside of the hole with aquarium grade silicone,let it sit for 24 hours.
Put a control valve on the end of the tubing,run more tubing to reach your tank with another control valve on the end of it.
Put a heater in the bucket.add treated water,and an IAL leaf,your ready to go and you can control the amount of water that drips in.
I have 4 of these set up all the time.
If I am not running any breeding tanks,I just top off the buckets as needed.
Bill


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I personally would be scared some of the RCS would eat the tiny fry. I just use one adult mystery snail. I have a spawn log going in the spawn section.

As for my drip system.. it's hard to describe.. I have shelves and I use anywhere from glass gallon jars to water gallon jugs lol. Not using it now, but can set one up and take a picture to show.

But GhostFeather has you covered.. if you don't want to drill a hole into the bucket you don't have to.. as long as it's higher than the tank it will be fine.. gravity will make it work. You just have to make sure the airline tubing is secure to the bucket - duct tape, clothes pin, etc. 

I purchased my control valve here.. I got lazy.. but I took off the hard plastic hook section and just used regular airline tubing to run from the (inside) bottom of the jugs to the control valve.. and then just used the tubing that came with it from the control valve to the tank itself. You will have to use your mouth or a turkey baster to get the suction going though.. I take off the tubing from the water container to the valve.. suck until the water starts then quickly stick the tube back on the valve.. expect some splashes lol


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

I was going to get a few of those drip systems,but I had bunch of these ones around,so I just use them on the tubing.
http://www.amazon.com/Jardin-Plasti...405&sr=1-9&keywords=aquarium+tubing+connector
Still have to keep the buckets above the tanks or the water will not drain,they just give me the option of putting the buckets away from the tanks.
I have tubing running all over my basement,looks like the mad-scientist lab!!!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Cool- I was going to use a gallon water bottle filled w/ treated water & nano heater. I'm thinking of poking a hole near the bottom & hot gluing an airline hose in the hole, then adding a control valve. I was going to put the container just above the tank, and refill it as necessary (I'll have to cut the gallon jug so the opening is wider. I don't want to risk spilling more than a whole gallon at a time (because I have).

Dad has attached part of the nest to the sponge filter that's in the tank. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm not sure when you fire up the filter...


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

No babies still?


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

No babies!!
While I had the heater set over 82 degrees, I used my magnifying glass & noticed the thermometer was just under 80. I cranked the heater to 85ish. Since it's in front of a window & it's 28 degrees out, the heater isn't getting the entire tank up to where it should be.
I hope I haven't killed the eggs. Since this is my 1st spawn (and the 1st spawn for Mom & Dad betta) I guess I'd be surprised if I get 1 live baby.
I'm prepared for failure; I have live food on hand, but I haven't purchased any tub/tank for a grow-out. I've just done my homework for 500 fry & have decided what I'd buy, but I'm not rushing to the store until I see what happens. That was very hard! Like if buy something, it will guarantee the outcome.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

The lower the temp the slower they will hatch so don't be discouraged. Maybe next time this experience will help with placing the tank somewhere warmer  be careful with raising the temp too sudden though or making it too warm! The higher the temp the higher the babies metabolism which means need for more feedings which also means more water changing! Good luck and keep us updated!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

My logic in my tank placement was to take advantage of the natural sunlight phases & the fact that it is almost spring- the ideal time to have babies! March in New England is a crap shoot, though (what month isn't around here); BUT it's been colder than normal this week. Oh, and more snow on Monday.
I love snow when I have enough $ to go skiing!!

If this doesn't work out, I may wait until the summer & try and outdoor spawn. We have no shortage on free live food: mosquito larvae, gnats, flys, etc...


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

Never done that. I'd be scared due to the factors I could not control.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

But- that's what happens in nature! As long as I make sure they're getting food (we have a HUGE mosquito problem here & there are wigglers appearing overnight) After July 1 it's a freakin' rainforest in these parts. NE has extreme seasons.


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

Oh I'm not dissing the idea. Just me being the type A control freak that I am wouldn't do well in that situation. :]


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm type..D- how far does it go down? Opposite type 'A' for sure. I'm laid back to the max.
I'm a "if nature wants it to happen, it will" type.
I grew up w/ a number of ponds on our property (we had 28 acres); we had bluegills, koi, turtles, frogs...
I always scooped up the frog's eggs I found & let them hatch in one of our tanks (we kept tropical fish, too) and turned them loose in a pond... I adored watching the jelly mass turn into living things! Sometimes they were newt or salamander eggs, sometimes green frogs... I grew up as a little biologist! Unfortunately, my parents were not impressed by me bringing every living thing into the house. After I got married, my (now ex) husband (and later, my son) freaked out at the fact that I could cup spiders in my hand & let them loose; brought hatchling snakes/turtles inside to observe them, loved finding salamanders- I'm a nature nut.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

:greenyay:AND WE HAVE TAILS!!!! Houston, we have tails...:greenyay:

Just a few, though; they started around midnight; they aren't wiggling; should they be? And it's only about 1/10th of the eggs. Man, they are TEENY!!!

When should I start a drip on that water?


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

Don't drip water until after you feed them when they begin to free swim.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

AND we have free swimmers!!!
Oh, they are too funny! Two dots and a thread for a tail- Butch is grabbing them & stuffing them back in the nest sternly: apparently he feels they are too young to be anywhere else!
He's a great Dad, but he looks tired. He won't eat.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Don't offer food now that you know he won't eat - don't want to foul up the water as water quality is the main thing at this point.

I would wait until they are truly free swimming.. right now they are just falling out of the nest and darting back up. Once they actually are horizontal and dart sideways they can handle a bit more.. not much more.. but a bit more. I waited until I did my first water change to start dripping water into the tank. 

Congrats!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

How long do you think it will be b/f they're free swimming?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Usually only a couple of days they should all be swimming. It can take a day+ for them all to hatch.. so you will still see some vertical and some horizontal for a little bit.


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## Minnieservis (Mar 12, 2013)

I just read this whole thread, some very helpful info here! Congrats on the babies!! It sounds like you have an awesome daddy betta


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Unfortunately, the whole thing crashed.
One day I had spawn, suddenly, a few hours later, there was no movement.
You can check my spawn log "Yellow Spawn".
I have NO IDEA what happened! I had a week off of work, and I monitored them as much as I could. The tank params were perfect. Mom & Dad are alive & well, thank goodness.
I'm not thinking of spawning again- too much heartache.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Don't worry, my first few spawns failed to. Don't give up!


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear this


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## Minnieservis (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm sorry


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## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

Sorry to hear what happened. But I think it's definitely worth trying again. Just give the parents time to recondition again.


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## louisvillelady (Jan 12, 2013)

Xaltd1 I am so sorry to hear this. You were so careful and vigilant. Do not let this discourage you from trying again though. Hate to say it, but this is very typical. Not sure why, but we have all been through it. try to think of what may have happened, and avoid that next time. You may never be able to pin point what happened. May be something so minuscule and beyond your control that you may never know. Next time it may go off without a hitch. You have beautiful mom and dad there, and a tank full of them would be beautiful!


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

While he was tending the nest, I fed Jack (Dad) some live blackworms. I've had the culture for weeks, and they've been rinsed and fed to all my fish (I couldn't spoil just the two parents!)with no ill effects (all of my fish are still healthy).
I thought he was hungry-looking, and I was worried that he'd snack on offspring. Maybe something in the blackworms did them in?
Also, I saw Jack take a newly hatched fish in his mouth and brought it into the nest. Are they supposed to do this? Or did he eat them by mistake?
Thank you all for your support.
What makes me uneasy about doing this again is the "live food factor". I read that deceased live food will kill your fish; or brine shrimp w/ a shell will kill them; that blackworms will kill them from the inside out-YIKES!!! I tried a "test-drive" with a microworm culture. I saw the worms crawling up the sides of the cup; I wiped them off w/ a Q-tip, and dipped it in a fish tank. The adult fish ignored the worms (that I couldn't see w/out a loupe) and I got this slimy crud in the water. Ugh! I tried the blackworms; rinsing them carefully & making sure they were alive & my fish turned into pirahnas! Then I read about the worms being able to "eat through your fish" & I stopped. When this didn't happen, I continued feeding worms to all the bettas. It is very entertaining to watch- no worm ever hit the bottom of the tank.
I'm going to toss my blackworm culture today and revert to the frozen food as supplemental nutrition. Bottom line: I can't "do" live foods, so I have no way of feeding any future fry.
P. S. I always handled the blackworms with my hands so I could see that they were alive, and fed them off my finger- yes, I still have the finger- so I'm not at all squeamish, so if there was another live food that I could examine (poke at & smell to see they're not rotten) I'd feel better.
Instead of anwering me, I think it would be AWESOME if a sticky thread were created on how exactly to raise & feed live food for conditioning parents & feeding fry. I mean a "for dummies" thread- like, what's the difference b/t a "culture" and the live food itself?


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## Jayloo (Mar 13, 2013)

A culture is just an environment suitable to grow whatever live food you have chosen to grow.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I have used blackworms almost everyday for the past two-three years on all my fish and juveniles (once they get big enough to take them) and never had any issues from them.

They are practically the only food my wild bettas eat and I have never heard anything about them eating through fish. 

I have dropped blackworms into tanks with fry that still had their yolk sacs on and again never lost anyone because of that. 

I think they tend to be thought of as a 'bad' food in America. Over here almost everyone who is into bettas uses them and for finicky wild-caught fish, they can be one of the only foods they take.


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Here's the post:
In light of my own predicament with my betta Train, I feel compelled to warn my fellow betta owners about live black worms.

Last week, I bought what I was told were live bloodworms and fed them to Train. That same night, I noticed he had a very large blockage that was literally making his belly pointed. A week in 3 tsps of epsom salt per gallon and IAL has done nothing to move this mass out of his system. He will most likely need to be euthanized.

Further research on google led me to discover that the worms I was sold were not bloodworms but were in fact black worms. And that's where everything went wrong for poor Train.

Here is what The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein has to say:

"Bettas may engorge on black worms, resulting in gastric distress and sometimes death. Many aquarists cut them into pieces with a razor blade before feeding them to bettas. Black worms that survive partial ingestion can tear the stomachs of small fish, killing them." (pg 93, Goldstein)

If you purchase live worms, do double-check to make sure they are bloodworms. If you intend to feed black worms to your bettas, feed only one or two at the very most and probably do as the book suggests, cutting them into pieces. 

I don't want anyone else to have to go through what Train and I are going through. Be very careful when purchasing and feeding live worms.
__________________


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah and I have had juveniles fed so heavily on blackworms that some of them look like blimps and they have never had any issues at all with either digesting or passing them. 

I've also read plenty of stories about frozen bloodworms ripping open the stomachs of fish fed on them, and how often are they recommended as a food source here?

As long as you are keeping and storing your blackworms properly and not feeding suspect looking ones to your bettas, you shouldn't run into any problems. 

Only way I can see that you could possibly make your betta sick is for the culture to crash (you can tell when it does because it stinks) and for you to be feeding your fish dead/dying worms that may have been exposed to bacteria in the polluted water.


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

I have never seen live Bloodworms for sale in this country,wish I could find some!
I get my Blackworms from another member of the GPASI,he is a big time breeder of all kinds of Tropicals,so I know they are good quality.
I rinse twice a day,and pick out any dead ones(that I can see),keep them in my spare fridge.
In 3 years I have had no problems,I never fed them to my Kilies(did not know where to get them then).
I guess it is a personal perspective.
Bill


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

This is where I got my blackworms:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281062039156?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I got an enourmous amount!

I wonder if bloodworms are getting mixed up w/ blackworms??

I assume you are in the U.S.

My bloodworms are frozen; this opens up a good research topic.


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## Option (Oct 20, 2012)

This thread makes me really wary of black worms. Heard horror stories about how dirty they are but this thread takes it to a whole new level! I have only ever used frozen bloodworms, never tried live foods before (outside of microworms of course).


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Blackworms aren't dirty. Here they are produced by what I believe is one supplier that has a massive set-up where freshwater is pumped almost continuously through. So it's not like they are grown in feces filled ditches. 

If you get them from a reputable place (some fish stores do not store them correctly) your fish should be pretty safe. 

Tubifex worms I believe are the really dirty ones that a lot of people don't feed.

Honestly, I have been feeding them to all my fish from fry to adult for 2-3 years and nothing adverse has happened.


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

Yes,I am in Pa.
I have seen live Bloodworms on Aquabid,but they are in England.
Wish he could ship them here!!!
My fish get live Blackworms,Whiteworms,Grindals,along with Frozen food.
I like to mix it up,they also get Golden Pearls a couple times a week,just a few.
It seems like when you start giving them live food,they get snobbish about the other stuff!!!!
Bill


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

If you rinse your Blackworms at least twice when you first get them in,then once or twice every day,the little bit of water you keep them in will be crystal clear.
You should keep them in just enough water to cover them,to much and they will drown.
Rinsing is a very critical part to keeping them in good health.
Once a week I feed mine some powdered food,then wait an hour and rinse them 3X.
I get mine a pound at a time.
I split that up between 3 plastic shoe boxes and keep them in my fridge,I also keep 2 gallons of treated water in the fridge to rinse them with.
Cold is the key word for keeping Blackworms.
My fridge is kept at 38 degrees.
Bill


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

My friend gets them from a supplier in California much like the one you have in Australia.
Bill


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## Xaltd1 (Dec 9, 2012)

My refrigerated blackworms are happy & healthy (amazing considering my fridge conditions).
I have a Brita filter pitcher & rinse them w/ that water. I have a few live ones left; maybe I should keep them.
GF, what food do you feed them?"They" say to put in a brown paper towel, which makes no sense to me.


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## GhostFeather (Jun 23, 2011)

The bag is for if you want to try and breed them,I don't want to get into that myself!
I feed the the smallest Golden Pearls you can get,I think they are Rottifer size,but any powder fry food will work,or even crushed flakes.
I don't really know if you need to feed them,I figure it can't hurt as long as I rinse them shortly after.
I never had any die or the water go bad.
Bill


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