# Few Questions about Breeding.



## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

I've bred couple of times before. I recently started breeding Bettas again. I have several questions.

1. A pair of Bettas spawned yesterday. During the Male's vigil he didn't seem to eat any eggs but now as the eggs started to hatch his stomach seems bloated and I see less eggs. Is there a way tell whether the male is a spawn eater?

2. When should I remove the male? (I wanna save as many fry as I possibly could)

3. When should I start feeding the fry?

4. Is egg yolk alone sufficient to feed the fry?

5. When should I move the fry to a larger tank (from the 10g tank they are housed in)

6. What seized tank should I move them into?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

tigahunta said:


> I've bred couple of times before. I recently started breeding Bettas again. I have several questions.
> 
> 1. A pair of Bettas spawned yesterday. During the Male's vigil he didn't seem to eat any eggs but now as the eggs started to hatch his stomach seems bloated and I see less eggs. Is there a way tell whether the male is a spawn eater?
> 
> ...


Question 1: Your male is "culling". Eating weak fry. It's instinct. Of course you could take him out now because fry will survive on the bottom until free swimming.

Question 2: I remove my male when the fry start free swimming. You can remove him as long as there are fry like I said above.

Question 3: I feed my fry as soon as they are free swimming, right after I remove the male.

Question 4: No, egg yolk will foul the water and kill fry, tough some people use it but I don't. I feed my fry infusoria (from my culture and from the live plants in the spawning tank), baby brine shrimp, and Hikari First Bites (powdered fry food, careful it fouls the water quickly) for the first week.

Question 5: I split my fry into two ten gallon tanks or a large plastic tub from Wal-Mart. Thoguh I'm getting a 20-30 gallon soon so I'll move my new fry (hatching later today) into that tank. 

Hope this helped


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Congrats....

You can remove the male the day the eggs are in the nest and then move the eggs to a shallow container to artificial hatch-or-leave him in for 24h and then remove as they start to hatch with known egg/fry eater when you need that spawn.
You may still have a lot of egg/fry death-usually the male is eating them for a reason to save the healthy eggs/fry and sometimes it can be due to being disturb too much

I only feed live foods-live plants and common snails produce infusoria for the first week and then I use newly hatched BBS, white worms, daphania, HUFA supplemented BBS

Once I start adding any food to the tank-I start making 50% daily water changes

I move my fry as they grow the biggest get moved first to a 20g and 25g grow-out tanks-depending on when I need the spawning tank again the smaller fry may stay in that tank for a month or longer......but that varies


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Thank you for your input. I've been reading OFLs posts from a while now and other threads as well. 

I have an additional question for OFL how do I know if I'm disturbing the male too much? As you can imagine I'm quite nervous about losing my entire spawn (my fish babies). I once had Albino Male VT who ate the entire spawn.

And to be honest it was recently I got hold of a SD male, HM females, and CTs. The pair in question is a SD Male with a HM female. I'm holding on to my nerves by a thread.


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Vamp I'm all for research but it's the amount of misinformation which makes figuring things out harder.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

tigahunta said:


> Vamp I'm all for research but it's the amount of misinformation which makes figuring things out harder.


 I hate it when websites tell you all sorts of wrong info about breeding. Everyone has their own way of doing things so you should find/have yours soon


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

When I have a spawn that is really important and I don't want to take risk....I artificial hatch the eggs

I get a small plastic container that has a lid to it and I will dip the container under the nest and gentle as I can allow the nest and eggs to flow in the container-I put the lid on it and float it in the tank to maintain heat.
I also put a very small snail in the container after 24h so it can eat the fungus eggs-Since I use live plants and my males build under water lettuce I have the added benefit of the plant to help keep water quality high
After they are free swimming for about a week I release them in the spawning tank without the male and go from that point.

When you put your hand in the tank or even look in too much...some males, not all, will eat the eggs/fry to protect them...the theory being that the male want to use the protein of his offspring so he will have energy to spawn again....


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

The bubble nest is in pieces when I checked today morning. Male seems to be tending it. He seems to be making rounds in the tank and eventually returning to the nest. I assume he makes rounds to gather the fry and put them into the nest. Lots of eggs seems to be on the floor, they haven't hatches and doesn't look like it's gonna either. Fry are verticle near the water surface, yolk sack seems to be almost depleted. I think I'm gonna risk it and keep the male till tomorrow (I might change my mind), if I lose the entire spawn I would start over.

I have some follow up questions I hope I'm not being annoying,

1. How shallow should water in the container be? (I think this might come in handy in the future)

2. How often can you use a pair for breeding after a spawning? Does time vary depending on the sex?

3. I live in Sri Lanka (an Island nation just below India), so the temperature is quite warm. It doesn't drop below 80 degrees F even during night, so wouldn't putting a lid on the container fry the fry?

4. If the male does eat the entire spawn does it mean he is ready to spawn again given that he has bulked up on eggs?

5. I read about "keeping the father with the fry" method on bettysplendens.com and she states that culling by the father is propotional to the tank seize. Is this true? Does it mean if I use a bigger spawning tank that I will get more fry?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

The bubble nest is in pieces when I checked today morning. Male seems to be tending it. He seems to be making rounds in the tank and eventually returning to the nest. I assume he makes rounds to gather the fry and put them into the nest. Lots of eggs seems to be on the floor, they haven't hatches and doesn't look like it's gonna either. Fry are verticle near the water surface, yolk sack seems to be almost depleted. I think I'm gonna risk it and keep the male till tomorrow (I might change my mind), if I lose the entire spawn I would start over.

I have some follow up questions I hope I'm not being annoying,

1. How shallow should water in the container be? (I think this might come in handy in the future)

* IME 5 - 10 cm*

2. How often can you use a pair for breeding after a spawning? Does time vary depending on the sex?

* Basically you can constantly spawn them* *but it is safer to rest them and recondition them. 
Badly beaten females should be given time to recover at least 1 week. The longer the better.
Males usually fast during the spawning and fry raising process, I usually rest them for at least 1 week. I would rest egg/fry eaters longer and hope they forget what eggs/fry taste like.... lol.
* 
3. I live in Sri Lanka (an Island nation just below India), so the temperature is quite warm. It doesn't drop below 80 degrees F even during night, so wouldn't putting a lid on the container fry the fry?

*No, if it isn't placed under direct sunlight. I too am in the tropics and I use lids too. For the ones under direct sunlight, I don't totally close them (not tight)
* 
4. If the male does eat the entire spawn does it mean he is ready to spawn again given that he has bulked up on eggs?

* I would not use these males unless I have to (for his genetics). I believe behavior will somehow be passed on to the offspring which in turn will become egg/fry eater. But to answer your question, yes you can spawn him again.*

5. I read about "keeping the father with the fry" method on bettysplendens.com and she states that culling by the father is propotional to the tank seize. Is this true? Does it mean if I use a bigger spawning tank that I will get more fry?*

IME not necessarily. I have experienced hundreds of fry in a very small container with the father for about a month.*


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Lots of different way to spawn this species-it is finding what works best for you and your breeders. I spawn using a more natural environment and allow natural selection with most of my spawns....Like Indjo posted-if the spawn is really important and you need the lines-you do thing different.

I use the full to the top full of water 10g, but I also use heavy natural planted tanks with soil substrate and sand cap.

You lower the water level for the male not the eggs/fry-breeders with big heavy long fins can have trouble swimming back and forth gathering eggs during spawning and tending after spawn, especially if not conditioned.

I am not even sure I would use any added heaters if my night time temp stayed in the 80F area, how is you humidity? if you are dry heat-you may want to use a plastic veggie wrap over the fry tank to get healthy labyrinth organ development-at least until they are 6-8 weeks old-

The male is ready to spawn at anytime-the female needs at least 3 day between spawns.

I can't say that in my experience the tank size or set up has had anything to do with how big the spawn was or survival numbers.
I have found that it is more related to the male himself and overall heath of the eggs/wigglers/fry and water conditions.

I like to use 10g full to the top with water for my main spawning tank, but I have been doing an experiment this summer with a 5g bucket with 1male and 2females with great success. 

Spawning this species is fairly easy IMO/E-it is the fry rearing that can be tricky for some. The right foods and clean water are so important especially for the first 3-4 weeks


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> Lots of different way to spawn this species-it is finding what works best for you and your breeders. I spawn using a more natural environment and allow natural selection with most of my spawns....Like Indjo posted-if the spawn is really important and you need the lines-you do thing different.
> 
> I use the full to the top full of water 10g, but I also use heavy natural planted tanks with soil substrate and sand cap.
> 
> ...


So the water level in the container for artificial hatching is immaterial?

Well it's quite humid inside my house. By the way I'm yet to see an aquarium heater in Sri Lanka, let alone buy one lol


And I've been reading your outside spawn thread way before I joined. Did you try repeating that method?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I first tried a multi spawn method last summer in the house using a NPT 10g tank. I only used 1 male and 1 female in that one-my goal was multi spawns and interaction between the breeders and fry-the end result was lots of fry-neither male or female seen eating fry...but, the older fry did eat the smaller fry-so I started removing the big fry to 20g grow-out...now, about 20 both male and females of these fry (now adults) still live together in a 75g NPT-some pulled for breeding and other sold.

I do have another experiment set-up, actually several going on...lol....but in one I have 1 male and 5 females in a NPT 20g- lots of spawning but no live fry as of yet.....

As far as artificial hatch-I use about 2 inches of water and once free swimming I add more water up to 3-4 inches and then they go in the 10g NPT.


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Doesn't the male get overly agressive after spawning concludes and start attacking the female? This is what usually happens one of the reasons why remove the female. I don't want the female to be brutalised by the male.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I would not recommend new to the hobby or new breeders to try what I do......I have been doing this for a very long time and I am home to move fish if needed. Due to the design of my set-ups I can do some things that other may not be able to do.
I have a much different plan in my breeding projects than most.

All Bettas are different as well as far as personality and aggressive nature IME. In normal breeding/spawning-I would highly recommend that the female be removed after spawning and depending on how important the eggs/fry to remove the male after the fry are free swimming.

I don't see the male becoming more aggressive toward the female after spawning in my set-ups-but this is due to the massive plants killing his line of site. I keep tall plants so that the female can go to the top without being seen by the male and I found that this also works in sororities as well with overly aggressive females.


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Care to share more about the set-up? What kind of tall plants do you use?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Oldfishlady said:


> I would not recommend new to the hobby or new breeders to try what I do......I have been doing this for a very long time and I am home to move fish if needed. Due to the design of my set-ups I can do some things that other may not be able to do.
> I have a much different plan in my breeding projects than most.
> 
> All Bettas are different as well as far as personality and aggressive nature IME. In normal breeding/spawning-I would highly recommend that the female be removed after spawning and depending on how important the eggs/fry to remove the male after the fry are free swimming.
> ...


 I like natural setups but I use the hobbyist method. I have used a big plastic tub filled 3 inches with water, tons of live plants and a cave surrounded by a thick area (more like forest ) of plants. It has worked twice, with success.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Any type of plant will work-I use vals, sags, hygrophila, as well as the roots from the water lettuce that hang down....great way to block the line of site

MV has a good method as well, lot of different method to spawn and rear fry-you have to find what work best for you and your breeders, I have to make little tweaks with my methods from time to time myself.....tropical fish love to keep you thinking....lol.......


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

http://twitpic.com/2ociys - The HM female who I spawned with a male has built her own bubble nest. So much for gender roles. Has this happened to anyone else?


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

*New Problem*

I have a batch of fry who are now well into their 3rd week. So I thought of spawning the same pair again. I put the pair into a 5 gallon circular tub with plants on one side. After about a day when I checked the male was guarding the nest. But it turned out he has eaten the entire spawn.

Then I moved the pair into a 60 gallon planted tank out side. And today morning after they were fed they spawned again. After a few hours when I checked the spawning has ended and the female was in the opposite corner and the male was guarding the nest. But I could clearly see that his stomach was full of eggs. So I removed the female and male cos of the tub inccident.

I should also mention that when I took him out of the tank last time he spawned successfully he went into a depression and even contracted ich.

Is it normal for males who spawned successfully before to act this way? ( He doesn't seem to care much about the nest)

Is there are a way to stop him from doing this?

So there are few eggs left in the tank, water level is about 8 inches deep. I have no idea whether they will hatch or not. Last time I tried artificial hatching it didn't work ( I think it was due to rain). Any ideas?


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

*Pics*

Male after I took him out of the tank and the tank I used for spawning.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

That is a cool looking tank....

Something is wrong with the eggs would be my guess-since you had one successful spawn from this pair-not a lot you can do about the male eating the eggs except to an artificial hatch and if the eggs are bad to start that won't do much good.......I would use a different female and see what he does with those eggs, if he eats them...then its him....


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks. That tank is heavy even without the water, you need at least two people two move it. 4 sides cement, single side glass.

Besides this female I'm left with 2 other HM females. White one with a red outline and white one with a light green outline. Which one should I use to breed with the male?


The green one had jumped outside of the tank. Lucky for her she was alive though completely dry. She's ok now. And the red one is a little smaller. It's raining again outside. I think I'm gonna avoid the monsoon season for spawning. Don't know what's gonna happen to the eggs outside. Sigh...


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

In my outside spawns-the rain (heavy) and the water that ran off the building into the bucket didn't harm the nest and eggs under the floating water lettuce.

Which female best complements your male?


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## tigahunta (Sep 12, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> In my outside spawns-the rain (heavy) and the water that ran off the building into the bucket didn't harm the nest and eggs under the floating water lettuce.
> 
> Which female best complements your male?


I don't have any water lettuce.

Seize wise why the Green one. Looks wise you tell me. I very much appreciate your advise.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Go with what you like and what pleases your eye...spawn both......lol....


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

your male definitely looks like an egg eater. IME some males are unpredictable, sometimes he is a good breeder but on the following spawn he eats everything. If you're going to use him again, I suggest that you artificial hatch the eggs. 

You said your previous artificial hatch failed due to rain. If it's the rainy season at your place, cover the tank. It won't cook your bettas. In fact it will keep the temp stable. Or you could move your eggs to a plastic bowl or something similar and let it hatch inside the house. After 24 hours check and remove eggs that have gone bad (I use a toothpick/home made small stick). After 3 days acclimate and move to grow out tank. 

If you have another male, I suggest you use that one. Egg eaters (IMO/IME) shouldn't be spawn too soon because he will always eat his eggs. But if you don't, you have to try to be there when they spawn and immediately remove either the male or the eggs.

If you're using a planted setup, you should add more plants. At least 1/4 - 1/2 the tank, all in one end. Then after fry are free swimming distribute the plants or reduce them to make cleaning and controlling easier. 
I would age my water to give infusoria time to grow, specially in an outside tank like yours.


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