# Wild Species Bettas



## babystarz

Due to popular demand, I am creating a Wild Species thread so as not to keep clogging up Setsuna's thread in the Breeding forum 

Who owns or has an interest in wild species? Do you have pics? Baby wild types for sale to others? Looking for breeding stock? Have questions about care? Are you simply looking for more information on these many species?

*Resources*

Link to IBC Species Management Program page and species index:
http://www.ibcbettas.org/smp/species/index.html

Seriously Fish species profiles (scroll down to the bottom of the page I've linked to see a full list of current species profiles for wild bettas):http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/betta-imbellis/


*FAQ*

*Q: Do wild bettas need the same care as betta splendens?*
*A:* Not necessarily. Many wild betta species prefer slightly cooler temperatures compared to bettas. Actual wild-caught pairs are the hardest to care for, and it's not necessarily ethical to buy them, seeing as over 56 species are identified by the IBC as in need of preservation. Wild bettas who were born and raised in hobbyist aquariums tend to be much easier to care for. Please be SURE to thoroughly research the species you are interested in before you acquire a pair.

*Q: Do male wild bettas need to be separated from other fish like betta splendens?*
*A:* Probably not. Many, if not most, wild betta species can be kept in pairs or communities. The general recommendation for most species is a heavily planted 10 gallon tank for a pair and a 30 gallon tank for a community, but this is not a hard and fast rule and breeders have successfully raised fry in smaller settings.

*Q: Can wild betta species interbreed with betta splendens?*
*A:* Some can. That is actually how metallic copper genes were introduced to betta splendens. However, because of the vast global spread of betta splendens and the shrinking natural habitat of many wild betta species, interbreeding is not seen as a responsible thing to do. There may come a day soon when the only populations of wild species exist in the hands of aquarists, and maintaining a pure gene pool is needed right now to boost numbers.

*Q: Do wild betta species breed the same way as betta splendens?*
*A:* Some of the more closely related species like betta imbellis are bubble nesters just like betta splendens, although the parents don't need to be separate from their fry. Other species are mouthbrooders (the males carry the fertilized eggs in their mouths until the fry hatch).

*Q: Aren't wild bettas dull and uninteresting?*
*A:* Not at all! Of course the aesthetic in wild betta species is their natural beauty, which is different from what many betta keepers may be used to. Betta splendens are the yin (artificially selected for exaggerated traits and bright colors) to the wild betta species yang (naturally evolved beauty). This isn't to say there are only muddy colors going on here. This is just a sampling of different species:









Source: IBC species index









Source: IBC species index










Source: IBC species index


And some Youtube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSV3nEbCVqE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5yg8Spbiw0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyEHk-A0F7M


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## LittleBettaFish

Yay wild bettas! I have a stack load of photos but I'm not sure if everyone wants to see reposts. Let me know if that's okay and I will go nuts haha

I have kept channoides, strohi and albimarginata, and am currently keeping rutilans, brownorum, burdigala, 'palangkarensis', persephone, tussyae, livida, unimaculata and ideii. As you can see I am more a fan of the coccina complex bettas than anything else, and really only have unimaculata because my mother loves them and wanted me to get a breeding pair. My ideii may be finding a new home with member Aus here on the forum. 

Wild bettas can be challenging, but they will reward you with lots of fry if you get their environment right. I am growing out some persephone fry as well as some newborn unimaculata fry, and am hoping since my brownorum and rutilans have been successfully treated for velvet I can get some more fry out of them. 

I am currently getting out of splendens and devoting myself entirely to breeding wild bettas, killifish and a couple of species of gourami. So you could definitely say I am obsessed. 

These are my lovely persephone fry who survived a very nasty ich infection when they were quite young with zero casualties.


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## ao

photos!!!!!


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## babystarz

I certainly don't mind reposted pics  I can't get enough of these guys! I would really like to get into a mouthbrooder species soon myself.


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## LittleBettaFish

Here are most of the shots from my photobucket account. Had some velvet go through my wild betta tanks so they have been getting treated. Will try and get some updated shots of them tonight.









Channoides male (since sold)









Channoides female (since sold)









Livida male









Livida male stress-striped









Tussyae and livida male facing off









Tussyae male


















Shots of my brownorum when they were new, tiny and chewed up









Tussyae spawning. Sadly lost the female and ended up with one juvenile









Tussyae spawning 









Rutilans sub-adults. They got velvet very badly and I lost two of them as it was very hard to eradicate. 









Rutilans (mum is on top in this photo)









Rutilans tank. Moving original pair into their own tank as their latest lots of fry were getting eaten by the smaller juveniles.









Ideii pair. Male sadly jumped to his death. They are big, almost as large as macrostoma. 









Persephone female (deceased parents of my fry)









Persephone male and female (deceased parents of my fry)









Strohi juvies before they went to live with Aus









Strohi juvies again


















Tussyae juvies. I accidentally knocked their lid slightly off, and all but one had jumped out by the time I arrived home. 



















Betta unimaculata. They have given me 20 odd fry recently.









Newest persephone pair in which male jumped out through God knows where to his death within 48 hours of me owning him. Just peeled his female off the carpet this morning alive thankfully. Don't know how they get out through my fortress of clingwrap. 

That's it for now. All I can say if you are going to own and breed wilds. Make sure your fry have the tightest fitting lid you can find over their grow-out as they will jump out if they get spooked and it is devastating. And make sure your adults have lids also with absolutely no gaps as they will also jump out and it is equally as devastating. Particularly, if you have a very rare species in your possession.


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## Aus

Ah! The persephones! Silly bettas. 

I lost my five beloved strohi juvies that I got from Littlebettafish right after moving house - and I don't know what happened. They just.. died. No sign of disease at all, they were a little stressed and pale on arrival to the temporary tank, but they are toughies and not likely to drop dead of that. I hate to think ill of folks but I had to wonder if my horrid ex housemate did something to them during the move... 

Anyways. I am still a wilds enthusiast. I should have a tank ready for the ideii female in November, and I am hoping to maybe get her a new husband. 


As for the ethics of wild-caught pairs.. the other side to that is that many of the wild betta's natural pockets of habitat are vanishing, and the bettas with them. Captive breeding may be the only hope of survival for some of these species, so I find it hard to see that as detrimental. 

If more betta enthusiasts got into wilds, and bought their fish from a variety of captive sources, they'd at least have a good chance of continuing on via hobbyists, and possibly being re-introduced to the wild, once it gets through to people that wholesale land development and water drainage isn't a good idea for the environment. As unlikely as that is..

Here's some pics of the strohi while they were at my place. There was one male, and probably four females (they were still juvies, but some were maturing faster than others, I am pretty sure there was only one male though). I miss them horribly.






































The boy is the blue one. He got so dark at times as to look jet black. The last pic above is the girls, arguing over territory. They were very territorial and the girls flared at each other more the male, I think, but they didn't get more violent than a swift nip here and there -- mostly, it was the display which sorted arguments out before they came to blows. 

One of my favourite things about them was the fantastic, prolonged 'dance' the dominant female and her male did before spawning. This could go on for a couple of days, and was really something to watch.

I very closely heed all Littlebettafish's posts on wilds here (I'm not stalking you, LBF, honest!! No, really!) as she has a lot of experience with them as is obvious from her post above. I am already planning on finding a source for custom cut perspex lids for any tanks for the larger species, and thinking up designs for these that will discourage them being knocked off by overenthusiastic jumpers. 

Wilds are challenging, for sure -- but omg, so worth it. If you like observing fish behaviour, get wilds. They are massively entertaining, and full of surprises.


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## LittleBettaFish

Thanks for the confidence booster Aus! I wouldn't say I was by any means an expert on wild species of betta. I have only been involved with them for two years, but I in that two years I have learned a lot and I am always willing to share my experiences with others who are interested. 

I did make this PDF on coccina complex bettas. Unfortunately, my images came out in awful quality and my writing went really big and bold in the uploading process. However, if you care to look past that, it contains info on diet, breeding and housing, based mainly on my experiences with these fish. 

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B245zPTPzoS-MEYzcUczd0loT0k

Let me know if you can't access the PDF. I made it shareable I believe but this is my first time using google docs.


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## babystarz

Thank you both for the pictures and information! I really appreciate hearing from people who have experience with wild species, and I'm sure having this all together will be really nice for others who may want to get into keeping wild species.


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## PitGurl

My guitar smaragdina are here . They're so cute, especially the female. They were really nervous in the bags, any movement from me freaked them out. They've chilled out a bit now that they're in the tank. I dropped in a few skeeter larva which they're busy stalking and happily nomming on. Here is a pic of the tank. It's a divided 6.6 gallon. I wanted to keep them separate so I can control their baby making. The tank isn't quite finished yet. I've got some cholla wood coming to add to it. I was able to snap a photo of the girl when she got close to my table lamp.


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## babystarz

My fish are here too  Just put them in their tanks. My smaragdina are super shy and terrified right now. I think putting them in the glass bottom tank was a bad choice, I'll have them in a tank with substrate soon. They do have a ton of moss and frogbit. They wouldn't even leave their bag until I took it out and made them. Now they're huddled together in the corner looking at me like I'm going to make sushi out them..The imbellis are little clowns haha! They swim right up to me and stare. I will have pics soon.


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I have my rutilans in hospital in a bare-bottom tank and they completely freaked about it. They lay clamped under the IALs and inside the PVC pipe I put in. One used to wedge itself upside down in the groove of the sponge filter until I put a few pieces of goldvine in. 

I think it wouldn't be so bad if the bottom was spray painted black. I think the reflection off the bottom confuses them.

Hopefully they settle in soon.


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## PitGurl

My male...


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## babystarz

Wow PitGurl, he's gorgeous!!


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## Hallyx

....


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## LittleBettaFish

What's his current set-up like? 

Wild bettas, even aquarium bred ones, can still be very shy. Some of the adults I own that I have raised myself, still get skittish if I move too quickly or do something to spook them. 

Is your water very tannin stained or is the lighting bright over his tank? Are you using substrate and providing lots of cover? 

When I first got my rutilans pair I didn't see them (not even at feedings) for two months or so. I eventually tore their tank apart thinking they had both jumped out. Now they are some of my friendliest fish. It can often take them some time to acclimatise to a new environment.


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## Hallyx

Sorry, I didn't mean to post that. Well, I had some comments that I deleted, but I couldn't delete the pic. If you know how to delete it, please do. 

Thank you.


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## LittleBettaFish

I don't understand? What's so bad about you posting about your shy smaragdina male? Wild bettas aren't for everyone and some people do have problems with their sometimes incessant hiding.


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## babystarz

I have updates! I took some great pics last night of the imbellis but my camera won't connect to my computer suddenly 

The imbellis are really fun to watch, they think everything in their tank is fascinating. And the like to come stare at my fingers if I put them up against the tank.

The smaragdina are still not sure if I'm going to eat them but the male is a little less timid, he's come out to look at me and show off, and he's coloring up too. His fins are red and his body looks more greenish so far. The female is terribly shy, I didn't see her at all yesterday and started freaking out a bit, but last night she stuck her head out of a huge tuft of java moss and I realize she's been hiding in the moss ball this whole time  I'm glad she found a spot that completely hides her, I think that security is really helpful for her. She is a master of disguise 

I'm really glad no one died over night, I've heard so many horror stories about new bettas up and dying when they arrive even in good water conditions, and I was especially worried about the smaragdina trying to jump and hurting themselves. But everyone is doing just fine, I'm thawing some bloodworms. I don't know how they feel about pellets; I put a few in the imbellis tank last night and it looks like they were eaten up. I did not try to feed the smaragdina yet because I figured they would be too skittish to accept it yet. I'm trying to see if my grindal worm culture is salvageable (oops, forgot to feed them for a week!) because their fat and protein content are higher than for bloodworms. And they're alive, which might make them more enticing. There are a lot of fantastic local fish shops here so if the fish don't like what I already have I can always pick up more live foods.

Anthony at the Wet Spot only has 6 betta albimarginata (geez that's hard to spell!) left so I decided to go ahead and order 4. I'm having him hold off on shipping until next Wednesday so I have a week to prepare their tank to satisfaction. I have decided to buy 2 more 20 long tanks as part of Petco's $1/gal sale. My shelves are the perfect size for those tanks and I think they're the best tanks for bettas because they don't have too much vertical space, and the horizontal space is doubled. 

I used up the last of my IAL last night dividing it between the two wild tanks, I noticed that the imbellis LOVE the one I weighted down with a rock to mimic their natural habitat. The smaragdina also like the added cover. I've got another huge order coming from Amy, I just hope it arrives soon!

The imbellis are impossible for me to sex at this point. If I'd kept some before I might be able to, but so far of the 6 there is only one I can tell for sure is a male. He's the most gregarious of the bunch. I am excited to see them grow a bit and hopefully I have at least 3 females  That way I can keep everyone in the tank. I have made 3 isolated areas with little ceramic pots covered up with plants for them, so if they start getting territorial they can stake them out.

I think my sorority girls might be jealous of all the attention I'm giving to the new fish


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## LittleBettaFish

My wild bettas love having a leaf litter to hide in. I put lots of IALs in my tanks and then let them sink to the bottom where they slowly break down. This not only provides lots of tannins but also encourages the growth of infusoria and other microorganisms that wild betta fry can subsist on in between regular feedings. 

Be aware that albimarginata are prolific breeders once they get into it. Reverse trios (two males to one female) are recommended as females can breed a male soon after he has released fry and I believe some males have starved to death because of it (they don't eat obviously while holding). You can separate out any females after a male has released fry to ensure that he has at least one to two weeks of rest. 

Other than that albimarginata are really cute and personable fish. Only reason I got rid of mine was they bred like guppies and I couldn't be bothered raising so many fry on a constant basis.


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## RichardA




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## LittleBettaFish

Very nice photo. One of the main sellers of wild bettas here in Australia had a rubra pair up for sale. They are beautiful fish and I was tempted. 

Had any luck with breeding them or do you just have a female?


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## babystarz

Moar updates!

Got my two 20 long tanks. I toyed with the idea of picking up a bag of substrate at Petco that claimed to have "instant cycle" capabilities because it contained "live" bacteria. It was $20 a bag and I did set it into my cart. It promptly leaked over a cup of water into the tank underneath it. That was enough for me to regain my senses. I already have organic potting soil and silica sand that I spent $10 on, and they will cover 10X the space that this magical substrate will. I think I will go with the hardware store + seeded bacteria method to get the tanks cycled fast. If they're testing funny I will not add the fish, since I haven't done this method before.

I have been reading a lot about people putting peat moss in filter bags for the albimariginata... how essential is this? I have somewhat hard water with an initial pH of 8ish, it goes down to about 7 after an hour.


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## LittleBettaFish

Albis are much less fussier than a lot of other species of wild betta in regards to water quality. Same with channoides. They do prefer cooler water though so just be aware of that. 

If your water has a relatively low KH you should be able to manipulate your pH a lot more easily using IALs and peat moss. 

Otherwise your albimarginata won't mind if you can maintain it around 7-7.5. They don't need the extremely low pH of some of the other species.


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## LittleBettaFish

PERSEPHONE FRY UPDATED PICTURES!

Took these this morning. You can see how the blue/black is starting to show over the red on the bigger fry's anal fins. Have so many more than I thought now they are bigger. Can't wait until they are fully grown and I can start hopefully match making.























































They are now solely on grindals, blackworms and whiteworms and the growth rate has jumped forward quite a lot. 




















Then this is the sole survivor of my tussyae fry. I am hoping it is female but I can never tell until they hit adult size. Even then I just guess. Would love to be able to keep a line of tussyae going.


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## PitGurl

My new smaragdina pair is doing great. They have been flirting with each other through the divider quite a bit. The female will go from stress stripes to breeding bars in a second. I was really surprised about how dark she gets when she bars up. I'm still waiting for the male to build a nest. I may put them in the spawn tank next week if the continue to do well and stay healthy.


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah they can have very rapid colour changes depending on everything from tankmates, water conditions and lighting. It's why I think so many people discount wild bettas as they are usually very unimpressive looking in a lot of fish store tanks. 

I've found a lot of the time my males will build nests right before spawning. However, I've never spawned smaragdina so they may be different. The male shouldn't try and kill the female like splendens if he isn't quite ready so if they look healthy and plump I would put them in together.


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## PitGurl

*hybrids*

A little test here . One of these fish is a hybrid. Can you guess which one?


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## LittleBettaFish

I actually have very little experience with imbellis and that entire complex of bettas, but I would think if one of them is a hybrid, it would be the bottom one as he is much thicker through the body and just has a different look to him. 

My imbellis females were always very slender and had a different body shape to my splendens.


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## PitGurl

One half of my smaragdina tank...


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## Hallyx

LittleBettaFish said:


> .... the bottom one as he is much thicker through the body and just has a different look to him.
> 
> My imbellis females were always very slender and had a different body shape to my splendens.


He looks like he was from a cross with one of those chunky fighter-plakats.

Your tank looks great, Pitgurl.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> the bottom one as he is much thicker through the body and just has a different look to him.


I was leaning toward the bottom one but I couldn't explain why. Now that you've pointed it out I totally see it though.




My imbellis juveniles will eat anything I give them and I can tell they love the taste of the NLS pellets I give them, but they can't swallow them. I have to crush them up or they just keep trying to eat them and spitting them out. Is there something similar but smaller anyone can recommend? 

Also the smaragdina will not touch the pellets. So far they have only eaten frozen bloodworms. What live food will have the highest protein content?


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## LittleBettaFish

I feed live blackworms, live whiteworms, live brine shrimp and then frozen brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms to my wilds. Some will take pellets (my aquarium raised adults and fry will) but most prefer live or frozen. 





































Got these shots of my Betta brownorum (think it is my dominant male and one of the females) and what I think is my Betta uberis male. The colours on these guys is spectacular even if they hate the light on them. Would have been nicer without the water stained glass. Have to get up their and clean it next time.


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## buddhauser

Littlebettafish what are you planning to do with your fry? Im very intrigued by the wild species after looking into this


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Got these shots of my Betta brownorum (think it is my dominant male and one of the females) and what I think is my Betta uberis male. The colours on these guys is spectacular even if they hate the light on them. Would have been nicer without the water stained glass. Have to get up their and clean it next time.


They're absolutely gorgeous! 



I'm worried about my smaragdina female  I saw her at the bottom of the tank and slightly tilted onto her side. I can't tell if she just wasn't moving because she was scared or if she isn't feeling well. I don't want to terrify her more by moving her out of the tank so I'm not sure what to do. Should I move the male out instead and use the 10 gal to QT her? I can easily move the plants out.


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## LittleBettaFish

I keep around 90% of the fry I breed. Until now I have never been dedicated to doing separate grow-outs so my fry numbers were fairly low. However, now I have a bit more of a system going I am hopefully going to raise up a lot more. 

Do you know what your water parameters are including softness and pH? Your tank looked pretty sparsely decorated, it could be that she is just feeling exposed or she could be feeling unwell. It can sometimes be hard to tell.

Velvet seems to be fairly common in wild bettas so maybe just do a check to ensure she hasn't somehow picked that up or ich. It can be difficult with the natural iridescence of these fish. 

I would drop a handful of IALs in to make the water really dark (sometimes my wild betta tanks look black haha) and see if you can't find some live foods for her. Blackworms are a favourite of my wilds and you want her to be eating properly if she is feeling a bit under the weather.

Hopefully it is nothing too serious.


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## PitGurl

Yep it's the bottom one. He has a thicker body, resembles a plakat. His dorsal has a more rounded shape, and his caudal has straight edges.


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## Destinystar

Pitgurl they are awesome ! I am doing a drawing of one for next week Bi-Weekly Newspaper, doing a Fall time picture with the wild type Betta.


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## PitGurl

Beautiful Mahachai male on AB right now. Great spade tail and color on him.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettas&1350125708


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## PitGurl

Built a nest...


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## LittleBettaFish

The pair at my LFS are still there and I was so tempted when I went in the other day. Just have to figure out whether I want to include them in my breeding program. 

So instead of them, I got my pair of what I believe are Betta Palangkaraya. Male is absolutely stunning when coloured up and I am crossing my fingers and toes that I have two females to go with him (the pair I meant to pick up previously had one jump out before I got there). 

Spent four solid hours sorting my fish room out. Once I move my goldfish downstairs, my rack of 13 tanks will be entirely dedicated to wild bettas. Only have two tanks with splendens now and once they die I will not be replacing them.

Nice bubblenest he's got going there. A much more impressive effort than any of my wilds have done so far haha


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## PitGurl

I've found new homes for almost all my splendens. I'll be keeping only two of them, a pair of HM's I got from Karen Mac Auley. I had plans to spawn them but they're almost a year old so now they're just pets. I'll probably always have one splenden but my goal now is going to be working with the guitar smaragdina.


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## LittleBettaFish

Also yay, my dominant pair of brownorum are trying to spawn under their IAL. Hopefully I can pluck dad out while he is holding the eggs in his mouth and have him release them into a separate tank so I can grow out some fry this time around.

I got bored of splendens and they were always doing goofy stuff like randomly dying or getting into fights or tail biting. Too much hassle. 

One of my tussyae males survived in a bucket of cold dirty tank water with a big pile of sharp gravel and spare parts from a filter for several days until I realised he was there. 

Had a big gash down his side and was very sad looking but now I can't even tell who it was. 

Can't beat that for hardiness haha


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## PitGurl

Oh and I ment I've rehomed most my domestic splendens, since my smaragdina are still in the splendens complex .


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## LittleBettaFish

No worries, I knew what you meant. Usually when I say splendens I mean domesticated splendens. If I was talking about smaragdina etc. I use their species name and if I was talking about non-domesticated splendens I would use the word wild to clarify. 

Are you planning on introducing your pair soon?


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## RichardA

LittleBettaFish said:


> Very nice photo. One of the main sellers of wild bettas here in Australia had a rubra pair up for sale. They are beautiful fish and I was tempted.
> 
> Had any luck with breeding them or do you just have a female?


Had a spawn and I believe dad munched :|

Male found the one tiny opening where the airline came in and jumped. Lost female in a move........looking to get another pair asap!


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah mouthbrooders can be annoying when they are getting the hang of it. I thought my unimaculata male had eaten his first lot of eggs until I found some fry at the bottom of the tank.

Shame you lost the male. Wilds are such awful jumpers. I swear they find the one single opening no matter how small and get through it. I have probably lost at least ten fish to jumping even when I take as many precautions as I can.

Just realised you lost the female as well. Ouch. I hate when that happens.


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## PitGurl

Yes, I'll probably introduce them on Monday since I'm off work and can fish sit them.


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## LittleBettaFish

Good luck with your prospective spawn. 

Meanwhile I took some photos of my new betta (hopefully male/female pair). They are still very shy and hate the light being put over them so I tempted them out with some white worms. 

You can see why they were sold as "Green neon ninja". 










What I think is the female


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## babystarz

I've been working a ton this week so I haven't had a chance to post, but I love looking at all your pics  

My 3 albimarginata arrived today and I didn't have their tank planted yet so I put them in my heavily planted 6 gallon, they love it. I don't know if I even want to move them now. They are as curious as the imbellis are. The seller couldn't guarantee sex because they're juveniles, but I'm almost positive I've got two males and a female, which is the ideal ratio for them. This way the males can trade off spawning and neither will starve XD

The female smaragdina is fine, I caught her out in the open today when I walked into the room. She's gorgeous and fully colored up now, even though the water is nearly black from IAL I could see the metallic green on both fish.


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## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. I really like this complex of bettas. They are just such firecrackers personality wise and absolutely stunning to look at. 

Good news about your smaragdina. I find with wilds, the darker the water, the better the colouration they will show. You think it would be opposite, but in my experience the colours are just so much richer in tannin heavy water.


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## RichardA

I cant wait to get some more wilds in....I have kept simplex, picta, rubra, and mahachai.


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## LittleBettaFish

Rubra are seriously nice. Am actually considering getting a pair to fill the last tank on my rack. I am not usually a fan of mouthbrooding bettas but they look beautiful in the pictures I have seen online.

Am very happy right now. My rutilans pair and juveniles, were nearly killed off by velvet. I had only recently returned to their usual tank, and had separated out what I believed to be the original male/female pair (it is _very _hard to distinguish between the genders with this species). 

Well today I could see what I think was them spawning in their hollow log. Hoping that I am correct and that I get some more fry. They are nearly 2 years old and up until the time they got sick they would still spawn regularly for me.


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## GhostFeather

Wilds look really interresting!
I would love to give them a try.
Thanks for the thread!


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## Aus

Thank you all for these wonderful pictures and informative posts.

I am solidly addicted to wilds now, and won't be replacing most of my splendens when they pass (of old age, I hope). 

Keep the posts coming! I keep this thread on favourites.


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## blueridge

Love all the information on this thread! Keep it up!


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## babystarz

So this is kind of funny, I totally forgot that I ordered an extra albimarginata. There are 4 fish, not 3. Realized this today when I saw one fish more than there was supposed to be, I think another female but I'm not 100% sure because this one is darker than the other female, and has a sliver of white on the fin edges, but they're not as distinct as the the ones on the males.

The normal NLS betta pellets are too big for the albimarginata too so I've ordered NLS Growth pellets, they're only .5mm so they will be just the right size for the imbellis and albimarginata. Since they all eat whatever I give them I have decided to supplement the pellets with live food, but this way I know for sure they're all going to be eating the right amount of food.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Was that you on UB with the question about the NLS pellet size? I am Nereus over on there and only realised that it was you posting. 

I find the .5mm pellet size good for the smaller wilds. I only use the 1mm on my bigger unimaculata, ideii and strohi when I had them. Otherwise it is a little big for them to chew on. 

I usually feed predominately live/frozen with maybe a serving of pellets once or twice a week for those who eat them. I've found my wild bettas at least, thrive on a mostly live/frozen diet as opposed to my splendens who seemed not to do well when not fed pellets on a regular basis.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Was that you on UB with the question about the NLS pellet size? I am Nereus over on there and only realised that it was you posting.
> 
> I find the .5mm pellet size good for the smaller wilds. I only use the 1mm on my bigger unimaculata, ideii and strohi when I had them. Otherwise it is a little big for them to chew on.
> 
> I usually feed predominately live/frozen with maybe a serving of pellets once or twice a week for those who eat them. I've found my wild bettas at least, thrive on a mostly live/frozen diet as opposed to my splendens who seemed not to do well when not fed pellets on a regular basis.


Yep that was me! That sounds like a good feeding schedule. I know in the wild they don't necessarily eat every day, so a consistent diet might not even be good for them digestion-wise. I just want to make sure they're getting enough of all the nutrients they need to thrive, and pellets are a good cheat 

I wish we weren't heading into winter here in the U.S., Minnesota has a brutal winter climate and no access to mosquito larvae. That would be the easiest live food for me to cultivate! We joke that the mosquito is our state bird here because there are so many of them during the summer. I am stocking up on worms though. And I've got plenty of frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp. Do they like daphnia at all?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

None of my bettas, wild or splendens, have like frozen daphnia. I haven't tried them on live. However, I never really persisted with it so you might as well give it a go.

I feed my wilds frozen brine shrimp/bloodworms, live blackworms (the staple of their diet when I can get them), live whiteworms and live brine shrimp (if I pick a bag up from the LFS). They will occasionally get some NLS pellets but really only my aquarium bred fish that I raised myself will take them. Everyone else looks at me as if I am attempting to poison them.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> None of my bettas, wild or splendens, have like frozen daphnia. I haven't tried them on live. However, I never really persisted with it so you might as well give it a go.
> 
> I feed my wilds frozen brine shrimp/bloodworms, live blackworms (the staple of their diet when I can get them), live whiteworms and live brine shrimp (if I pick a bag up from the LFS). They will occasionally get some NLS pellets but really only my aquarium bred fish that I raised myself will take them. Everyone else looks at me as if I am attempting to poison them.


That's how my smaragdina are XD They don't realize the pellets are food. I'm wondering if they're F1 from wild parents. They came from the same person as the imbellis and albimarginata who both love NLS pellets, but their habits and personalities are much closer to what I would expect of wild fish.

I'll give the daphnia a try and let you know how it goes.


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## PitGurl

Got my spawn tank set up. I'll be introducing my smaragdina in the morning :-D.


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## LittleBettaFish

Good luck. Hope you get some wrigglers! 

My biggest 'wrigglers' are going to be moving into an adult grow-out soon. They have started squabbling and I want to fatten up the smallest ones.


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## PitGurl

Thanks. I had a bit of bad luck with my HMPK spawn so I'm hoping this one goes better. I'm hoping the smaragdina can stay together a bit longer then then the domestics. I really don't enjoy cleaning jars. I plan on jarring the boys I want to show that way they'll hopefully deport for the judges but other then that I want to keep them in the grow out as long as possible.


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## PitGurl

Well I put my pair together and they're totally freaked out about being in a new tank :-?. They were stressing about the bare bottom so I put some black paper under the tank so they can't see through it. I've seen the male chase the female a couple of times but they're mostly just sitting on the bottom. I'm hoping they will chill out as the day goes on and get to business.


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## Hallyx

I run bare-bottom tanks. I've noticed that dark-colored backgrounds reflect more than light-colored ones. You can check this for yourself.


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## babystarz

PitGurl said:


> Well I put my pair together and they're totally freaked out about being in a new tank :-?. They were stressing about the bare bottom so I put some black paper under the tank so they can't see through it. I've seen the male chase the female a couple of times but they're mostly just sitting on the bottom. I'm hoping they will chill out as the day goes on and get to business.


This is how my smaragdina reacted to a bare bottom tank too. I think they're just freaked out by how different the surface is compared to sand and rock. Keeping the water as dark with IAL as possible has helped a lot, and they seem to be getting used to the tank. I am still planning to move them to a larger NPT once I have it ready for them, but they stress so easily that I'm not going to do that until their new tank has flourishing plants providing full cover. I know that's not necessarily an option for you, I don't care how many fry I get or anything and I keep my pair together full time. I guess I'd just suggest the blackwater and plenty of nooks and crannies for them to hide in when they don't have to look at the bottom of the tank  Big balls of moss help too, my female likes to hang out in the middle of them. Other than that, time to adjust is important too. Personality-wise my smaragdina seem way less happy about change, new things, and people moving around than my other wilds



I know I shouldn't pick favorites, but the albimarginata stole the show this morning. One of the males opened his big mouth all the way, it was adorable. It was either the world's biggest yawn or his version of a roar XD I've seen this behavior in some Youtube videos, and it could be part of him establishing that he's in charge and comfy in his new home. I'm not sure how aggressive or territorial albis really get, they definitely seem to be on the extremely peaceful end of the betta behavior spectrum. They don't even playfully nip at each other.


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## PitGurl

I did think about the black paper creating more of a reflection but I was worried that the male may not see the eggs as well with light paper :-?. I have 4 IAL in there so the water is pretty dark. 

As of this morning the male has a tiny nest and the female has a few nips. No eggs though. The female was barred up when I left for work this morning and the male was just sitting on the bottom watching her.

Their normal tank is a divided 6.6 gallon so that is why I moved them into a spawn tank. I'm going to leave them for a couple days. I never feed my pairs in the spawn tank but I may drop in some mosqito larve. If they're in the spawn tank more then a few days I'll have to do a water change too.


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## LittleBettaFish

Albimarginata are an extremely peaceful species. Mine lived with smaller killifish and pseudomugil species until I sold them, and even though the fish could easily fit in their mouths they never attempted to eat them. 

Pitgurl, don't worry about feeding your wild bettas while they are in the spawn tank. I've fed some of my wilds while they were in the actual act! I haven't found it distracts them from their task or encourages egg-eating. 

I've also found that my females will often stick around after the deed has been done to guard the male and his nest against intruders. Generally my males make only a halfhearted attempt to chase the female off while he is on fry duty. 

If the male has a nest already that's promising. Hopefully the female works up her courage and does her part now.


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## PitGurl

Well still nothing. I added some more plants for the female. Sheis still barred up but the male really gives chase when he sees her. She gets stress stripes and hides again. For some reason I was thinking they'd be easier to spawn :-?.


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## PitGurl

Sorry to be posting so much. I don't really want to post a spawn log until they spawn.

So I just saw the female under the nest with her head down, she had stress stripes. The male saw her came charging up flaring, she barred up and charged him flaring and then the male chased her off. The female has suffered some battle wounds but nothing serious, missing scales and some torn fins. I was expecting the wilds to be more gentle with each other, at least that is what I read. But it's looking more promising


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## LittleBettaFish

My wilds get pretty savage during courtship. I could always tell when they were feeling ready as the male and female would have a full-on flare and fight session before commencing. 

My rutilans female is highly aggressive towards the male when she is ready, and they will nip and chase each other around for a few hours pre-spawning. 

However, I have never had a male seriously harm or kill a female, which I know can be the case with splendens. 

I find that with bettas, the violence shown during the courtship process seems to be a test by both fish to see if their partner is the best possible candidate for spawning.


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## PitGurl

Ok, I feel better now. Thanks.


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## LittleBettaFish

No worries. 

When I first got my persephone pair I worried I had been given two males. As soon as I released them into their tank, they started flaring and fighting and chasing each other around for hours. 

They spawned later that night and I have the fry to show for it. 

Sometimes with wilds best approach is the hands-off approach. It can take them a while to figure things out.


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## LittleBettaFish

Giving my unimaculata pair some attention. Their tank at the moment just has all my spare plants chucked in so it doesn't always look like it does now. 

These guys have spawned and I am raising around 15-20 of their fry in a separate tank. Not really my cup of tea, but my mum loves them so I had to purchase a pair for her.


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## blueridge

Beautiful fish LittleBettaFish!


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## PitGurl

@ littlebettafish- Your tanks are so pretty.

Well no eggs yet. The female will hardly come out of hiding. If she does he chases her relentlessly. She hit the glass a couple times this moring. He's not even trying to lure her to the nest. I think I may pull them when I get home. I contacted the breeder to see if he has another male. I'd like to have a backup just incase this one doesn't work out.


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## LittleBettaFish

What does your spawning tank look like? 

Maybe just set-up a tank and have the female hanging in a breeders' net inside. Then once *she *is actually actively trying to get to the male, release her. 

I agree that it's no good if she's scared and hiding. Wild bettas can be sensitive to being moved around so that is why I keep my pairs in together. 

If you keep the actual female in a breeders' net inside their permanent set-up or a separate spawning tank until she wants to be let out then I think you will probably have more success.


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## PitGurl

Here are a couple pics I just snapped. They're driving me crazy. I think the male just doesn't know what to do. These guys are supposedly wild caught so I don't know their ages. They are in a half full 10 gallon with lots of plants and hiding spots.

I heard back from the breeder and he does have another male that I'm going to purchase. I want to have more then one anyways so I can introduce different genes into my line.


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## LittleBettaFish

Have you been conditioning them on live foods or only frozen? 

I personally would do a water change with slightly cooler water and dump a whole lot of live food in, add a couple more IALs and see what happens. 

Never tried my hand at spawning this complex, but I've found the triggers for most betta species seem to be the same.


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## ChoclateBetta

Wish I could spawn my fish.


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## PitGurl

They have been getting live mosquito larva. In fact I just dumped a bunch in right after I took these photos. I'll try the cooler water. I hope I don't seem impatient it just seems like I always have a hard time with spawning :dunno:


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## ChoclateBetta

My bettas love their FFF.


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## LittleBettaFish

Unfortunately, you can do all the right things and the stars just won't seem to align when it comes to bettas. 

Unless he looks as if he is killing her, I would just leave them in together in the spawning tank and see how it goes. 

Also do you have the parameters of your water in regards to pH, softness etc.


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## ChoclateBetta

Yeah my betta is a killer too.


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## babystarz

Gah work has been keeping me super busy, I'm so glad I have my NPT's for a little stress relief. Clipping plants is very relaxing for me  My second 20 Long is almost ready, it has about 30 pennywort plants, at first I was really worried about them because the leaves were quite yellow and the tank only gets natural light. But this morning I saw a bunch of new stalks with tiny green leaves unfolding at the ends  At the moment it's housing my HMPK Casper and some snails to provide ammonia, but now that the pennywort is doing well I'm going to start adding mosses and once it's filled out I'll move the smaragdina pair into it.

My versatop covers for the two new tanks just arrived (I got them for half price online) so I'm ready to move ahead with getting the third 20 long set up. I washed my sand today, I just need to get my mud ready to go. I'm worried I won't have anywhere near enough plants for it to look good, I may need to do another bulk plant buy like I did with the pennywort. I was also thinking of getting some cholla wood logs for all of them, to provide hiding spots for fry and anchors for moss.

I took a risk and bought a bulb pack from Petco... so far the only sprout I see for sure is a water lily. I think one of the onions might be starting to sprout too. I really wanted an aponogeton to sprout but no sign of activity is happening with those bulbs. I guess I'll stick with buying already living plants from now on


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## ChoclateBetta

My water onions were starting to sprout in the box when I got them planted a week ago one inch tall now you know water onions are endangered in there natural habitat.


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## LittleBettaFish

Took these photos of a couple of some of my wild betta tanks. The bare-bottom one is how I now typically grow my fry out. They start off in a smaller 31x18x24 tank, then move to a 30x30x30 tank, where they generally stay until they get too big and start fighting. Then I move them out into a 45x27x30 tank. 





























Also made this little header for my Weebly site I am setting up, which will contain lots of information and pictures on my wild bettas and (hopefully forthcoming) killifish.


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## babystarz

Nice tanks LBF  I'm envious of your moss lol, those are some big clumps! I can't wait to see your site.

I splurged on plants and two T5 lights for the newly set up NPTs, I'm going to have to sell some of my pony collection to pay for them  Worth it though! Now I won't have to worry about natural lighting reaching the bottom tank, and I can have some medium light plants.


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## ChoclateBetta

Love your tank.


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## LittleBettaFish

Took some photos of my fish rack up in my bedroom. I will try and go around and get decent shots of individual tanks, but this is essentially what the majority of my set-up looks like. 

From left to right (top shelf): Betta burdigala, Betta rutilans pair, Betta brownorum, Betta uberis, Betta rutilans F1 juveniles










From left to right (middle shelf): Betta persephone grow-out, Betta tussyae, Liquorice gourami, Betta unimaculata grow-out, New Betta brownorum tank










From left to right: Betta 'Palangkarensis' (ignore goldfish tank it is moving back downstairs)


Fish room shelf. Shallow tank is going to house two pairs of killifish, and tank on the bottom holds my poor lone Betta livida male










Betta unimaculata tank on my chest of drawers










Ignore the pink paint. I hate it but unfortunately it has to stay because I can't be bothered trucking all my fish and tanks in and out of my room.


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## LittleBettaFish

Got some photos of my persephone fry in the grow-out. Also got two of my unimaculata fry. They are growing extremely fast and I will be moving them out into a bigger grow-out this weekend (there are currently 20 of them in a 3.5 gallon tank).














































Looks like I have velvet or ich (never knew what it was exactly) back in a few of my tanks so everyone is getting a big water change and treated. 

Unfortunately, this coincides with me getting a new pair of Betta rutilans delivered. I still can't tell whether I have the original female or not so I figured since all their juvenile and adult offspring look male I should probably splash out and get a new pair.


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Awwwe I want a wild beta!
I really love the tan and the.one.under.it. can someone.tell me.the names.of those?
Is really love to get one of them c:


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

PitGurl said:


> They have been getting live mosquito larva. In fact I just dumped a bunch in right after I took these photos. I'll try the cooler water. I hope I don't seem impatient it just seems like I always have a hard time with spawning :dunno:



DUUUUDE! I am completely and madly inloooove with the betta on your avatar!
What is.it called?


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

LittleBettaFish said:


> Giving my unimaculata pair some attention. Their tank at the moment just has all my spare plants chucked in so it doesn't always look like it does now.
> 
> These guys have spawned and I am raising around 15-20 of their fry in a separate tank. Not really my cup of tea, but my mum loves them so I had to purchase a pair for her.





They look prehistoric :3


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## LittleBettaFish

ItsKourtneyYoC8 said:


> Awwwe I want a wild beta!
> I really love the tan and the.one.under.it. can someone.tell me.the names.of those?
> Is really love to get one of them c:


Which post/photo are you talking about as there are a few different species on this thread? 

I would definitely do some research before committing to purchase any wild bettas, particularly if the area you live in has very hard water or you haven't been into bettas that long.


Just saw your latest thread and yes, they look pretty prehistoric haha. They can fit a LOT in those big mouths of theirs. This is one of their fry


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

LittleBettaFish said:


> Which post/photo are you talking about as there are a few different species on this thread?
> 
> I would definitely do some research before committing to purchase any wild bettas, particularly if the area you live in has very hard water or you haven't been into bettas that long.
> 
> 
> Just saw your latest thread and yes, they look pretty prehistoric haha. They can fit a LOT in those big mouths of theirs. This is one of their fry



AWE! tHEY ARE SO TINY!!!
How big are the parents?
And yes, I wouldn't be getting any anytime soon, I'm too new at this >.<

And I was talking about the pictures that started this thread C:


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## LittleBettaFish

The adults are around 10-12cms so quite big compared to the average betta. 

The three species in the very first post of this thread are albimarginata, smaragdina and brownorum. 

I hope that answered your question.


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

LittleBettaFish said:


> The adults are around 10-12cms so quite big compared to the average betta.
> 
> The three species in the very first post of this thread are albimarginata, smaragdina and brownorum.
> 
> I hope that answered your question.



You did C:

Thank youuuuus


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFZctmiZrxs



Figured yall would appreciate this video :3


Also, quick questions, the males carry the eggs in their mouths for about 14 days....how do they eat without swallowing the eggs?


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## LittleBettaFish

They don't. Which is why it is very important they are properly conditioned beforehand, and that you do not allow the female to spawn again with them until they have had a couple of weeks to recuperate after spawning. 

The females of mouthbrooding species can be very pushy so it is sometimes better to have two males to one female.


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Oh okay. I was just curious.
I probably won't be breeding at all unless I get obsessed or something, not that I'll mind or anything but my Fiance' might >.< Fiance' <333


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## LittleBettaFish

Nah it's fine. I always encourage people to learn more about the other species of bettas out there as they are a very different ballgame to splendens and if you are willing to dedicate the time and effort to their care, very rewarding to own and breed. 

Only downside is they are such notorious little jumpers! Sometimes I think mine must teleport onto the floor as there is no other way for them to get down there.


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Awwe, I have been reading up on them here and have seen a lot of people do have the jumping problem. I guess they get so excited about have a new home the jump with excitement!!! lol


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Can you hepl me with something?


On my signature I added one of those little pixel pictures and it says its attached but it doesn't show up, any idea why?


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## Setsuna

PitGurl said:


> A little test here . One of these fish is a hybrid. Can you guess which one?


The bottom one is the hybride of mahachai and imbellis


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## ItsKourtneyYoC8

Setsuna said:


> The bottom one is the hybride of mahachai and imbellis


They are SOP prettyyyyyyyyy. *stares in awe*:shock:


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## LittleBettaFish

I now have only two Betta splendens and they will not be replaced when they pass unless I find a fish I absolutely have to have. 

My wild bettas on the other hand, are doing great. Took the last group of fish out of the hospital tank for velvet treatment and they are showing no signs of sickness or ill-effect. So hopefully they will get back on track with spawning and I will be able to get some fry from them. 

Finally my unimaculata fry are big enough for the camera to focus on without a macro lens. Their bellies are full of grindal worms so they look like little blimps here.




























Persephone are also doing well. As you can see, quite a size difference between the first and last hatchings haha





































This is both of their tanks (unimaculata and persephone) side-by-side. Unimaculata just got moved into a bigger grow-out a day or so ago. 










My brownorum who just came out of hospital, new tank.

I have replaced 50% of the sand in my tanks with peat moss as I think the sand was raising the pH and causing my fish to not be as healthy. Just need to buy some more peat moss so I can finish doing the rest of the tanks.


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## babystarz

Hey guys, long time no see! Sorry I haven't checked in lately, my computer is basically useless at the moment so I can only log in here on other peoples' computers.

I am glad to see the continued interest in wild species, I'll be going back over this thread and reading up on what people seem most interested in and maybe find more resources and academic articles that cover such things. If there's one skill I honed in college, it was academic research 

As for my own fishies, they're doing good overall! I did lose one imbellis, it was acting sickly for quite a while. It wouldn't eat anything but brine shrimp, but even with those it eventually passed away. The 5 remaining imbellis are growing rapidly and I'm finally able to sex them with I would say 75% accuracy. I have one dominant male, as with the other community tanks, and at least one more male. The rest appear to be female.

The albimarginata continue to be my favorites! Their tank is the jewel of my collection of NPT tanks. I ordered them a whole jungle and it's growing in nicely. I have one dominant male who shows off full dress ("full dress" for those who are unfamiliar with the term, refers to a healthy, virile male betta in peak color condition and flashing his brightest shades, generally in order to attract females). I also have one gregarious female that he really likes. I also have a smaller male that he likes to pick on a little (but not much, they are a peaceful species). And I also have one female who is incredibly timid and prefers to hide in the plants, although even she gets curious enough to come out and stare at me if I'm in front of the tank. Her coloration is much lighter than the other three, and she has the most adorable blush-colored cheeks. I suspect she might be descended from fish that came from a different locality than the ancestors of the other three, but it's really hard to tell these things with fish born into the aquarium trade. I think she will produce some fantastic color variation in fry if she ever calms down enough to breed. She is very easily stressed, and when I moved her into the 20 Long tank she was the most difficult to catch, I think I gave her an anxiety attack. Everyone is doing very well now though, they've been in the new tank for a few weeks and I can tell they love it.

The smaragdina pair is the same XD Still quite skittish, although the male is getting more used to me. He is gorgeous when he's out in the open, that greenish copper color gets me every time. Natural metallics are jaw-droppingly beautiful.

Edit: LBF I just read your post, it's so funny that you have a fish rack in your bedroom and refuse to paint your walls because it's so much work to move the fish. I also have a fish rack in my bedroom, and refuse to paint the walls because the idea of moving my 20 gallon tanks doesn't appeal to me at all XD I do need to get my big desk out, it was temporary surface area for tanks. I need to get the 20 gal on it over to the top of the metal shelves I have on the other side of the room. I've been putting it off for a while now lol!


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## LittleBettaFish

Albimarginata are cute in a dopey sort of way. I just got tired of how like guppies they are with their constant fry making. Channoides are very much the same. Once mine got into the swing of things I never saw my nice males as they were always holding. So enjoy them while you get to see them in full colours. 

It seems a lot of the time people are drawn more towards one type or complex of fish. The splendens complex seems the most popular on this forum. I personally prefer the coccina complex (obviously) but I just wish they were easier to sex so I could get some more guaranteed male/female breeding pairs. 

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...edir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=betta rutilans&f=false

This hopefully should come up on a page with some information about wild betta species. I found it had a decent amount of information about some of the species.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> http://books.google.com.au/books?id...edir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=betta rutilans&f=false
> 
> This hopefully should come up on a page with some information about wild betta species. I found it had a decent amount of information about some of the species.


This book is fantastic, I have it on my coffee table! 


There are some really tempting wilds on AB right now, it's a good thing I'm broke  The macrostoma are especially *want* but I think they're a bit advanced for me. I don't have a lot of experience with messing with pH levels.


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## LittleBettaFish

I find a lot of European based forums have more information on them than American ones when it comes to wild bettas as they seem particularly popular over there. Unfortunately a lot of the time the text is in German or something like that so I just have to either use an online translation and sift through the gibberish or look at the pictures haha. 

I'm contemplating contacting Xtrembetta and seeing if he has any uberis or burdigala pairs for sale again as I cannot tell for the life of me whether I have all males, a couple of females and some males or what. There was a mix-up with the last shipment (he didn't use waterproof texta so all the labels washed off) and I was never sure whether I did in fact get my proper fish. 

Of course at the moment I am poor and jobless so I might set-up a spawning specific tank first and see if i can't get one of my 'pairs' to actually spawn. 

The guy who owns my LFS and who I convince to order obscure fish in for me had two pairs of young macrostoma in the other day. I don't like big jumpy fish but my mum loves the entire unimaculata complex, so of course she wanted me to get a pair. 

Having dealt with my unimaculata and their incessant jumping issues and suicide attempts, I could not imagine dolling out the couple of hundred bucks a pair here brings and finding it turned to a fish crispie on the floor.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> I find a lot of European based forums have more information on them than American ones when it comes to wild bettas as they seem particularly popular over there. Unfortunately a lot of the time the text is in German or something like that so I just have to either use an online translation and sift through the gibberish or look at the pictures haha.


Thanks for the tip!



LittleBettaFish said:


> Having dealt with my unimaculata and their incessant jumping issues and suicide attempts, I could not imagine dolling out the couple of hundred bucks a pair here brings and finding it turned to a fish crispie on the floor.


Good point, this too. They would require a specialized (expensive/time consuming) tank to ensure they can't escape, and apparently even this would not necessarily be foolproof. Still, maybe some day I will have the money and skills to make a go at it. It's possible to find a pair or juvenile group here in the U.S. for $100 if you know where to look.


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## babystarz

So I _finally_ have a bit of extra money and I'm thinking about adding another mouthbrooding species to my collection. Probably a smaller species. I'm thinking maybe rutilans or brownorum? I'll have to do more reading up on them to decide, but that's kind of the direction I'm heading in.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Rutilans and brownorum are not mouthbrooders per say. My dominant brownorum male and two rutilans males do it for some reason known only to them (it is recorded as occurring with this complex), but otherwise they are submerged bubblenesters.

I've found my coccina complex bettas prefer to build bubblenests in things such as terracotta pots, PVC pipe, hollow logs and old film canisters rather than at the surface like splendens do. 

You have to have really really soft water with a very low pH value (think below 6) to be successful with these fish. They can be sensitive to water quality and velvet is quite common, particularly with the fry. It is also very difficult to spot due to their colouration. 

Rutilans are actually quite aggressive in my experience so I would recommend only a pair. My pair that spawn almost continuously are very rough in courtship and my female came out missing half her dorsal fin and some scales when they last spawned. 

Brownorum are slightly more peaceful. But for the best breeding results I would again recommend one pair to a tank.

Parents will not eat fry so you can grow them out alongside them. They are quite slow growers in comparison to splendens and I think it takes them around 8-12 months to reach maturity. 

Best set-up I have found for these species, is one that is dimly lit, with a dark coloured substrate (I just use boiled peat moss now and nothing else), heaps of IAL and a lot of java moss for them to hide in.

They can be quite a timid complex so do not be surprised if a lot of the time you don't actually see them. They are personally my favourite complex due to their size, personality and spectacular colouring but they do require a bit more specialist care than something like an imbellis.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Rutilans and brownorum are not mouthbrooders per say. My dominant brownorum male and two rutilans males do it for some reason known only to them (it is recorded as occurring with this complex), but otherwise they are submerged bubblenesters.
> 
> I've found my coccina complex bettas prefer to build bubblenests in things such as terracotta pots, PVC pipe, hollow logs and old film canisters rather than at the surface like splendens do.
> 
> You have to have really really soft water with a very low pH value (think below 6) to be successful with these fish. They can be sensitive to water quality and velvet is quite common, particularly with the fry. It is also very difficult to spot due to their colouration.
> 
> Rutilans are actually quite aggressive in my experience so I would recommend only a pair. My pair that spawn almost continuously are very rough in courtship and my female came out missing half her dorsal fin and some scales when they last spawned.
> 
> Brownorum are slightly more peaceful. But for the best breeding results I would again recommend one pair to a tank.
> 
> Parents will not eat fry so you can grow them out alongside them. They are quite slow growers in comparison to splendens and I think it takes them around 8-12 months to reach maturity.
> 
> Best set-up I have found for these species, is one that is dimly lit, with a dark coloured substrate (I just use boiled peat moss now and nothing else), heaps of IAL and a lot of java moss for them to hide in.
> 
> They can be quite a timid complex so do not be surprised if a lot of the time you don't actually see them. They are personally my favourite complex due to their size, personality and spectacular colouring but they do require a bit more specialist care than something like an imbellis.


Thanks so much for the information, this is exactly what I needed. I have heard that the fish in this complex can switch between mouth brooding and bubble nesting and no one seems to know why, or what causes them to choose one over the other 

I will have to experiment with lowering my pH with peat moss and see if I can make it stable and low. The natural pH of my water is a bit too high. I'm wary of using more complicated methods so if the peat moss doesn't do the trick I may have to skip these guys and go for a species that is less sensitive to a higher pH.

I am also considering simplex, any experience with them?


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## Hallyx

Cichlid Exchange http://www.cichlidexchange.com/ in Eugene Oregon have rutilans, brownorum and strohi. I don't know anything about them, other than they're local. No pictures on their site.

Cory (I can't remember his last name but I can find it for you), who is a member of this list, raises simplex and ocellata. Here's a great-looking simplex:


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> These guys in Eugene Oregon have rutilans, brownorum and strohi. I don't know anything about them, other than they're local. No pictures on their site.


Is it the Wet Spot by any chance? I've bought from them before and have been very happy.


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## LittleBettaFish

I tend to stick with the coccina complex so haven't had any experience with simplex. They seem to be pretty non-fussy and hardy from what I have seen and read so they might be a better option for you if you don't want to mess too much with your water quality.

Strohi, like Hallyx mentioned, are a beautiful fish if you had an interest in those. Sort of like a bigger version of a coccina complex betta. My pair were quite prolific but the male could be aggressive when he was holding. The fry grew quite quickly and were easy to raise.


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## Hallyx

Here's that simplex pic. There's also a nice picture of one in my "Most Wanted" album on my profile page.


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Here's that simplex pic. There's also a nice picture of one in my "Most Wanted" album on my profile page.


:shock: WOW. Definitely want his contact info!


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## Hallyx

Not Wet Spot. Cichlid Exchange Home

Hehe...we're on at the same time. Talking between edits. ;-}


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Not Wet Spot. Cichlid Exchange Home
> 
> Hehe...we're on at the same time. Talking between edits. ;-}


XD oops! That is awesome, I had no idea Portland was a mecca for wild bettas lol. I thought having 3 betta shops here was impressive! Will bookmark, I don't believe I've encountered anyone else selling strohi.


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## Hallyx

[email protected]

That's Cody's email. I can't believe I don't have him on my friends list, so I don't have his handle. He wasn't on much. Tell him I sent you.

This is an ocellata. He says they're puppy-dog friendly and water-spec tolerant...and get up to 3 inches. I'm starting to get interested again, having talked with you guys.

Also, I stand corrected. That's a Betta enisae in my album, not a B simplex.


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> [email protected]
> 
> That's Cody's email. I can't believe I don't have him on my friends list, so I don't have his handle. He wasn't on much. Tell him I sent you.
> 
> This is an ocellata. He says they're puppy-dog friendly and water-spec tolerant...and get up to 3 inches. I'm starting to get interested again, having talked with you guys.


Thanks, I will be sure to email him sometime this weekend. Ocellata are beautiful! Also there's a local fishkeeper here with them. If I were to get a couple from him and a couple from Cody, I'd have a good gene mix. So definitely another species to consider. The local guy also has rubra, but they apparently prefer a low pH.

Hehe, we will suck you in to the blackwater depths of the wilds


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## Hallyx

Oh, I've been an admirer of wilds ever since I first saw a picture of a B. imbellis. I like that long slender look and neon scalage---as you can tell from my Most Wanted album.

All this "180 degree, crisp edges, long dorsal, correctly-angled anal, 50/50 BF pattern" stuff has often struck me as a little "fussy," although I do applaud adherence to a standard. 

And ain't this 21st century technology Kewl. Imagine friends in Minnesota, Oregon and Australia conversing and sharing pictures in real-time---and for free.

**Warning** Betta porn


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## babystarz

ROFL "betta porn" :lol:



Hallyx said:


> All this "180 degree, crisp edges, long dorsal, correctly-angled anal, 50/50 BF pattern" stuff has often struck me as a little "fussy," although I do applaud adherence to a standard.


Agreed! It's nice to have the goal of breeding simply to perpetuate the species. Definitely a different ballgame. I'm not even sure if I want to be purposely selecting for specific traits aside from health.



Hallyx said:


> And ain't this 21st century technology Kewl. Imagine friends in Minnesota, Oregon and Australia conversing and sharing pictures in real-time---and for free.


To imagine it would have taken months and several bucks in photo processing and postage to have this conversation 2 decades ago... mind blowing  

I've been quite upset about my computer being on the fritz, there are so many good shots I've taken and been unable to share. Oh well, I'll get them all uploaded eventually. I missed out on my chance to snap one of my albi in full dress & flaring the other day. I'm hoping he'll do it again tomorrow. It was highly impressive to see how colored up he was!


P.S. I *just* found out that betta pi were named so due to the fact that they have the pi symbol on their faces! How freaking awesome!!


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## LittleBettaFish

I keep Betta unimaculata who are out of the same complex as ocellata and they are extremely easy to keep. Only thing you have to watch out for is that the bigger fish tend to be quite adept jumpers. Their size also means they can go through things such as cling wrap.

Of the six unimaculata I have owned, four of them have died from jumping. This is even with all the precautions I take.


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## Hallyx

Just showing off ;-}


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## Hallyx

Have you guys seen Setsuna's thread on wild splendens complex? 

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-chat/info-betta-splenden-complex-group-119527/


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah that complex doesn't really do much for me I have to admit. It seems that imbellis and smaragdina are the more popular species of wild betta, probably because they are so close to splendens and not so big a jump in care and personality. 

On other wild related news, sucked two fry out of my rutilans tank and have about a dozen or so that dad is guarding in his log and won't let me near. Thinking I might strip the tank down and catch as many fry as I can to grow-out separately. Only trouble is they are practically impossible to see and to find in there.

Decided I am going to sell my unimaculata pair after the female jumped out on me for the second time after I just took off the lid to clean their tank. It's not fun scrabbling around on the floor at 11:30pm trying to find a fish who ends up on the complete opposite side of the room. 

I have their fry anyway so if I decide to keep a pair I can just go with them. Hopefully being tank-raised they might be inclined to be a little less jumpy!


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## Chuckee

I covet wild types, but I've got this serious "caged bird" complex, too.


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Have you guys seen Setsuna's thread on wild splendens complex?
> 
> http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-chat/info-betta-splenden-complex-group-119527/


No I haven't, thanks for linking!



LittleBettaFish said:


> Yeah that complex doesn't really do much for me I have to admit. It seems that imbellis and smaragdina are the more popular species of wild betta, probably because they are so close to splendens and not so big a jump in care and personality.


Yes, the less splendens-y fish have a more, I don't know, primitive/prehistoric look to them that I love. I will say my imbellis are quite fun to have around due to their clownish personalities, but my smaragdina still think I want to kill them. They don't even come out to eat live food until I've left the room. The only reason I know they eat is because they're still alive XD I continue to be more drawn to staring at the albimarginata.



LittleBettaFish said:


> On other wild related news, sucked two fry out of my rutilans tank and have about a dozen or so that dad is guarding in his log and won't let me near. Thinking I might strip the tank down and catch as many fry as I can to grow-out separately. Only trouble is they are practically impossible to see and to find in there.


The visual image of daddy guarding his little ones is too cute! What have you been using to nab the fry?



LittleBettaFish said:


> Decided I am going to sell my unimaculata pair after the female jumped out on me for the second time after I just took off the lid to clean their tank. It's not fun scrabbling around on the floor at 11:30pm trying to find a fish who ends up on the complete opposite side of the room.


Yikes, again?! Fingers crossed for a less jumpy F1. I was jut browsing my local fish forums and someone lost their macrostoma female to the same problem. I felt so bad for her, I can't even imagine losing such an expensive fish.



Chuckee said:


> I covet wild types, but I've got this serious "caged bird" complex, too.


I totally understand how you feel. You may want to look more into the IBC's species preservation project if you have interest in wild types and potentially keeping some. For many species, captivity is likely their only shot at continuation as a species, so the whole "caged bird" issue kind of goes out the window (well, unless you want to move to Hawaii and keep an open pond of them haha). Also, it seems to me that even wild-caught fish adapt happily to captivity if the aquarist is skilled at mimicking elements of their natural habitats, and taking their space needs into consideration. Many of the biologists who originally discovered species and local variations of species plucked them out of their natural homes, carted them to the U.S. and successfully bred them and spread out their genes


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## LittleBettaFish

I use a measuring scoop to corral and catch the fry or a turkey baster with a large catchment area at the top. I just move them over keeping them in water from their old tank only until the next day when I slowly drip in some new water. 

Wild-caught bettas really don't care that the are kept in aquariums, as long as your parameters are good and your conditions suitable for the species you are keeping.

The only way to secure the future of any animal facing extinction due to habitat destruction is to have captive breeding programs set-up. Betta persephone are critically endangered in the wild and found only in one or two places. Yet I have a whole tank of fry growing out. Without these fish being placed in the hands of responsible hobbyists, they would undoubtedly become extinct once their remaining habitat was destroyed by palm oil plantation or highways (I forget which). 

My original rutilans pair was wild-caught and yet they have thrived in my tank. Even at two years old, and after a recent brush with death, they spawn at least once a week for me and are still healthy and full of life. 

I didn't see them for a month or so when I first got them. However, now they are quite content to spawn in front of me and the male always likes to show me his big mouthful of eggs haha.


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## babystarz

Well, I just had a very fruitful shopping trip almost entirely by accident. I stopped at the home improvement store because I'm out of sand and dirt for NPT's, and they happened to have peat moss on sale! So I get to start playing with it right away!
Then, since I had the peat moss, I figured I might as well get another tank. Stopped at Petsmart and got a glass 10 gallon tank for $12. I debated getting a versa-top cover because I have found them for cheaper online before, but I decided I didn't feel like digging around and waiting for shipping so I bit the bullet. As I was leaving the store, I realized that what I'd bought (2 bottles of prime, 1 bottle of stress coat, 1 tank, 1 cover, and 2 packages of Hikari frozen BBS) seemed like it should have cost more than $37. I assumed I'd picked up something that just wasn't marked for clearance. When I got home I looked at my receipt and realized that cashier never rang up the versa-top  So... *cough* I got it for free. Can't beat that price online. It was clearly visible, I put everything inside the tank for her to scan so the only thing I can think of is she assumed I was buying a kit or something. Oops!


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## babystarz

babystarz said:


> Well, I just had a very fruitful shopping trip almost entirely by accident. I stopped at the home improvement store because I'm out of sand and dirt for NPT's, and they happened to have peat moss on sale! So I get to start playing with it right away!
> Then, since I had the peat moss, I figured I might as well get another tank. Stopped at Petsmart and got a glass 10 gallon tank for $12. I debated getting a versa-top cover because I have found them for cheaper online before, but I decided I didn't feel like digging around and waiting for shipping so I bit the bullet. As I was leaving the store, I realized that what I'd bought (2 bottles of prime, 1 bottle of stress coat, 1 tank, 1 cover, and 2 packages of Hikari frozen BBS) seemed like it should have cost more than $37. I assumed I'd picked up something that just wasn't marked for clearance. When I got home I looked at my receipt and realized that cashier never rang up the versa-top  So... *cough* I got it for free. Can't beat that price online. It was clearly visible, I put everything inside the tank for her to scan so the only thing I can think of is she assumed I was buying a kit or something. Oops!


PS - I moved the smaragdina pair into their planted tank the other week, and I can tell they're LOVING it now after recovering from the traumatic experience of me catching and moving them. Especially the big piece of Mopani driftwood. It has a little cavelike area under the front of it, and the male felt brave enough to poke his head out and stare at me while I was in the room today


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## LittleBettaFish

Wilds definitely prefer a lot of available cover in their tanks. I use grapevine and manzanita branches in my tanks as they provide lots of areas for them to hide in. I am also a java moss hoarder. 

Are your pair of smaragdina in together or separated by a divider? I can't recall if it was you having problems with spawning them or not?


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Wilds definitely prefer a lot of available cover in their tanks. I use grapevine and manzanita branches in my tanks as they provide lots of areas for them to hide in. I am also a java moss hoarder.
> 
> Are your pair of smaragdina in together or separated by a divider? I can't recall if it was you having problems with spawning them or not?


Mine are together. I haven't tried to get them to spawn, I bought them as juveniles so they haven't been old enough yet. The tank also has lots of cholla wood logs, subswassertang clumps, pennywort, ancharis, camboba, and frogbit to hide in. There is some java moss but it's barely alive at the moment; the mopani wood was in my imbellis tank and the moss attached didn't get enough light when my lily plant had a growth explosion.


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## Hallyx

Shy smarigdina, eh? I didn't know they were known for that or I might have opted for something more personable. He wasn't shy when I first got him, though. For the first couple of weeks he'd come out, jump over an inch for bloodworms, flair at his reflection in the rim of his tank, pose for pictures (won the photo contest by the largest margin I’ve ever see), parade around fully finned-out, stare at me.

Then he started hiding more, coming out more slowly to feed, not jumping. Then he got painfully shy. I put in more plants, some Java moss, darkened things up with Rooibos tea. Now I never see him. I’m wondering if it has something to do with living in and accommodating to a higher pH.

Actually, that’s not quite true. In the morning, if I'm patient, he'll cautiously break cover and slowly come for bloodworm-on-a-stick. He'll hit it like a shark...and then, faster than I can follow, dive back into the weeds. He looks nice and darkly colored those 10/20 seconds I see him every day, but he doesn’t have his neon on. Are wilds the only Betta with that remarkable photophore action?

LBF, are you referring to actual grapevine, the kind that grapes grow on? I can get that easily. Better yet, I can get Manzanita to stretch the Java moss over and around. We have two different sizes growing on the property and, nearby, we have these 30 foot tall Madrone trees, which are related to Manzanita, peeling red bark and all. (Manzanita is Spanish for “little apple.”) Should have known it grew in Australia; you have the soil and the climate for it.


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Shy smarigdina, eh? I didn't know they were known for that or I might have opted for something more personable. He wasn't shy when I first got him, though. For the first couple of weeks he'd come out, jump over an inch for bloodworms, flair at his reflection in the rim of his tank, pose for pictures (won the photo contest by the largest margin I’ve ever see), parade around fully finned-out, stare at me.


Haha I know how you feel. My male is bad, but the female is worse. I see her maybe once a week. I will test out my peat moss in their tank to see if a lower pH changes anything about their shy behavior.



Hallyx said:


> LBF, are you referring to actual grapevine, the kind that grapes grow on? I can get that easily. Better yet, I can get Manzanita to stretch the Java moss over and around. We have two different sizes growing on the property and, nearby, we have these 30 foot tall Madrone trees, which are related to Manzanita, peeling red bark and all. (Manzanita is Spanish for “little apple.”) Should have known it grew in Australia; you have the soil and the climate for it.


SOOO JEALOUS!!!


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## LittleBettaFish

I'm not sure whether goldvine is grapevine or not. This is what is sold as 'goldvine' here in Australia. 

Pisces Natural Products - Gold Vine

Nah, manzanita doesn't grow here. Costs a fortune for a decent sized piece and the range is pretty limited, none of the nice flashy pieces you can get over there. I just picked up a few branches here and there to use in aquascaping and when I lost interest in that they ended up in my wild betta tanks. 

All wilds have the potential to be shy. If I move too fast or cast a shadow over the tank when even my tank-bred fish are not expecting it they shoot off and hide in their moss. Some of mine I don't even see until feeding time, when they will come out and snack on some blackworms. Have to do a lot of head counts as I can never tell if all my fish are there or not.


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## Hallyx

LoL. The three of us are on again at the same time. That would be 8pm Saturday 11/18 for Babystarz and (what?) 9 or 10 Sunday morning in Oz? (Do you still call it that?)

I'll send you all the Manzanita or Madrone that'll fit in a box. Just the cost of shipping. What do the Aus customs people have to say, LBF?

So what makes splendens---the kind we customarily get from domestic breeders and stores---such cocky and bold little critters?


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## babystarz

7 PM here actually, we just began Daylight Savings :roll: 

I would love to get a flat rate box of wood from you, thanks so much  I bet you can ship to LBF if you find an innocuous way to describe it on the customs form? Maybe "sculpture wood materials" or something that does not invoke ideas of invasive species XD 

I am curious about the playfulness and interactivity towards humans of domestic splendens too, especially because they were bred for so long to be aggressive.


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## LittleBettaFish

I would probably assume that they have been bred for years now in captivity and probably the more aggressive a fish is, the less it has to fear from anything as it becomes the apex predator in that environment. 

Haha customs gives you a huge fine if you knowingly or accidentally ship in something like that and they catch you. Not worth it unfortunately. Half the time you can't see anything in my tanks but a huge ball of moss anyways. 

It's 12:40pm here. Just put my tub of hornwort and duckweed out front in the sun to propagate it now so when I am ready to try a pair of perhaps palangkarensis or brownorum outside over summer it is ready to go. Also may or may not be trying to get some mosquito larvae breeding :devil: Not that my mum knows that.


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## Hallyx

Nice if you can get that "Goldvine." Easily as pretty as Manzanita. As soon as it stops raining (snowing?) I'll go up the hill with a handsaw and see what I can find in the way of Manzanita, maybe down to the park and see what the Madrone dropped.

Went looking for a picture of B palangkarensis. Hard to find a pic; the IBC doesn't have a ref. But I came across this stunner, B antuta. Blackwater low pH species, near as I can tell without further research. Love the look, though.

Unless you mean the guy in the lower pic. Sort of a simplex with a small mouth looking. Love the colors.

Oh, yeah. What's with the photophores. Some wilds have 'em, some not so much? Not splendens near as I can tell, except I've seen a few (cellophanes, mostly) with a little of that in their fins. Maybe not the same thing as having that outrageous neon scalage.


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## LittleBettaFish

That I believe is a photo taken by a guy I know from another forum who works at the main wholesaler here in Australia. 

I think that Betta palangkarensis, is actually 

Betta sp. ‘Sengalang/Palangkayara’ — Seriously Fish

I have Betta palangkarensis and they are basically identical to photos shown of palangkayara. They are a member of the coccina complex due to size and breeding behaviour, and are spectacular fish. 










Here is one of my males. I have four males and I believe two females.


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Oh, yeah. What's with the photophores. Some wilds have 'em, some not so much? Not splendens near as I can tell, except I've seen a few (cellophanes, mostly) with a little of that in their fins. Maybe not the same thing as having that outrageous neon scalage.


Yeah, I really haven't run across much info on this in the literature I've found. Maybe we should ask some experts, like the people who frequent SF or the Anabantoids Yahoo group. I've seen some biologists in both places who could potentially explain it.


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## babystarz

Mr. Smaragdina was out in full view today! I couldn't believe it at first, he even swam right up to look at me, and ate the pellets I left for him. I was amazed. Then I saw that he had created a bubble nest right next to his view of my pineapple splendens female XD Wrong species you nimrod! Still, I'm glad something enticed him out of hiding.

I haven't seen Mrs. Smaragdina in a few days. She might be miffed at Mr. Smaragdina.


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## Setsuna

these are my wilds that i just recently bought 

My wild caught Imbellis








My wild caught Pure Blood Splenden


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## babystarz

They're gorgeous Setsuna! I especially love that spade tail on your splendens. Remind me, are you the person with a cousin who lives near wilds?


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## babystarz

Yes! Won a reverse trio of ocellata from Cody  He might throw a few extras in too. I can't wait to show them off when they get here. I have a feeling I've got quite a bit of work to do on my tanks; I ended up staying at my parents' house for 3 days with the flu and the lights were on this whole time >.< Plleeeaaase don't let there be an algae infestation when I return.

I am probably going to split up my albi pairs into two 10 gals and give their 20 long to the ocellata. Since it's the closest to the ground, any jumping will not be catastrophic as long as I'm around when it happens.


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> They're gorgeous Setsuna! I especially love that spade tail on your splendens. Remind me, are you the person with a cousin who lives near wilds?


yea my cousin lives in Laos (next to Thailand) he told me theres alot of wild bettas there and little kids always go catch it and fight them for fun lol he also said if i needed any he can pay kids 1 dollar to go catch a few and send it to me


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## LittleBettaFish

My albimarginata were never big jumpers. They tended to go down when spooked rather than up and out. But being bettas it's always better to be safe than sorry. 

Just make sure you have a good lid on your ocellata. My bigger wilds always try to jump out onto me when it is feed time as they get themselves worked up into a frenzy.

In good news, managed to get seven fry of various sizes out of my rutilans pair tank to grow-out. It is hard as the male mouthbroods and then they don't come to the surface after free swimming like splendens tend to do. If they start spawning regularly again, I'm just going to tear down the tank every week or so and pull any fry out. Think it will be the best method of attack.

Persephone and surprisingly unimaculata fry are switching onto .5mm NLS pellets. Some of the persephone are quite big now and it is entertaining watching them box on with their younger siblings. 

Have no idea what I am going to do with them all once grown. May have to clear out a 3ft tank and have them in there. Hopefully they aren't all male or all female. 

Xtrembettas has a pair of uberis up on AB. So tempted to buy them and get them as a Christmas present off someone. I hate being broke. I want money to be able to buy fish and fish things with! I don't think my uberis I got are actually a pair or if they are they are too young/small to be breeding.


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## Hallyx

Yay, Babystarz. You got the ocellata. Love to see pics.

No ocellata for me this year. No tank space...I mean literally no place to put a tank. <sigh>


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## LittleBettaFish

Got some updated photos of the unimaculata fry I am growing out. The biggest is only 1.5cm and they are easily taking .5mm pellets and blackworms (they kind of maul the blackworm until it breaks into smaller pieces). 




























Then my persephone juveniles. There are some really dark-bodied ones amongst the smaller fry so wondering if these are possible males. To be honest if I get only one pair out of this lot I will be happy. Want to work with a few more generations from this line. 














































Sorry about the water stains, too lazy to clean them off. 

Rutilans fry are doing great. Gave them some BBS yesterday and they scoffed it down. Brownorum fry who I also put in with the unimaculata is doing surprisingly well. Can't believe it actually has survived as it was so sick when I put it in there.


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## Setsuna

nice pictures and frys


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## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. I really love my persephone juveniles. Promised a couple to someone on another forum but other than that I will be keeping them all. Struggled enough to get them over really bad ich and to this point, so am pretty attached haha. 

Unimaculata will be getting kicked out as soon as they are old enough. Cannot stand that species and will probably sell the parents off as well.


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## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Thanks. I really love my persephone juveniles. Promised a couple to someone on another forum but other than that I will be keeping them all. Struggled enough to get them over really bad ich and to this point, so am pretty attached haha.
> 
> Unimaculata will be getting kicked out as soon as they are old enough. Cannot stand that species and will probably sell the parents off as well.


Hahaha i have been fighting ich also with my im imbellis frys also but the ich didnt last long though. I will post a video of me feeding them BBS later


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## Setsuna

Setsuna said:


> Hahaha i have been fighting ich also with my im imbellis frys also but the ich didnt last long though. I will post a video of me feeding them BBS later


heres a video of my feeding my imbellis frys 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhPUH1BoglY


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Sorry about the water stains, too lazy to clean them off.


Story of my life lol! Those persephone juveniles are too cute. I haven't seen many pics of lighter colored persephone either, so that's neat!

I finally made it home today and OMG the smaragdina tank is covered in algae :/ Mr. Smaragdina was happy to see me though, he was all "where have you BEEN?!" Fortunately my purchase of 30 MTS has arrived, so I put half of them in the smaragdina tank to get to work on cleanup. The other tanks all did better than could be expected with almost 4 straight days of light, but I hate doing that and I'm shopping around for good prices on outlet timers in case I need to be away for more than 24 hours again. I'm getting into plants that are too sensitive to be messing around with their photoperiod so much. And I'm sure the fish will appreciate a normal circadian clock too.

No spawning happened while I was gone, which is good.


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## LittleBettaFish

That is a lot of imbellis fry. What size tank are you growing them out in? 

I have noticed my young wild fry tend to get ich-like spots on them (my persephone had actual ich and were really sick for two or three weeks) when they are really young. They don't show any symptoms or adverse effects from it and it just clears up on its own once they get a little bigger. 

My persephone juveniles are usually darker than that (the big one in my picture is the one in my display picture) but I flicked the light on and they hate that. I find it awesome how their fins all start off red and then all of a sudden this blue wash covers it all up except for on their ventrals. 

Your algae is why I only do moss in my wild betta tanks. It doesn't care if I leave it in near darkness for a week. Although I have some now under a T5HO light and it is going nuts. May have to remove some from that tank to give the fish room to swim.


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## Setsuna

The parents was breed in a 5.5 gal so they still in the 5.5 im going to move them to a 10g soon. Theres about 100+ in there


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## LittleBettaFish

Ah okay. Good luck with raising them all. The species I keep tend to spawn very frequently but not have as many fry as the splendens bubblenesters. 

I usually move mine into a 3.5 gallon tank doing 50% water changes every second day. Then once they get big enough I move them into a 7 gallon and then 10 gallon tank. I lost two whole batches of channoides once when I moved them too soon and was too slack with dripping the water in. Got a lot more patience nowadays! 

Just found two more fry in with my rutilans pair so that brings my current total up to 10. Hopefully there are more so I can scoop them up and grow them out.


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## babystarz

Potentially exciting news, my dominant male albimarginata, Cinnamon, might be holding eggs. I saw him and the dominant female couple up a few times right in the front of the tank, then Cinnamon disappeared and she followed him, and then she returned and started chasing the non-dominant male, Nutmeg, away from the left side of the tank, guarding Cinnamon. Cinnamon had disappeared with Ginger, the shy female XD After this his behavior changed a lot, he stayed hidden in the plants and his cheeks look a bit puffy. I expect he'll swallow any eggs, this being the first time he's had any, but we'll see.


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## babystarz

I finally have some pics!

This is Ginger, my shy albimarginata female. She was completely translucent until this week, when she suddenly developed lots of spots on her fins. I think they're super cool-looking. She looks very different from my dominant albimarginata female:









Another pic of Ginger, you can see how clear her body is:









Ginger with the two albimarginata boys, Cinnamon and Nutmeg. Nutmeg is opening his mouth at Cinnamon in a territorial display. Usually it's the other way around:









Cinnamon in full dress:









This is Spice, the dominant female albimarginata. I had trouble getting a good pic of her:









Cinnamon is in the middle, Ginger is on the left, Spice is on the right:









And the 4 imbellis being clowns. They refuse to hold still for pictures:









And Mr. Smaragdina popped out to say hi. Ignore his algae-tastic tank >.<


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## Hallyx

Great pics. Thanks.

I thought your smarigdina was more bluish with red. Where did I get that idea? From what I can see, he looks just like mine.


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> I finally have some pics!
> 
> This is Ginger, my shy albimarginata female. She was completely translucent until this week, when she suddenly developed lots of spots on her fins. I think they're super cool-looking. She looks very different from my dominant albimarginata female:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another pic of Ginger, you can see how clear her body is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ginger with the two albimarginata boys, Cinnamon and Nutmeg. Nutmeg is opening his mouth at Cinnamon in a territorial display. Usually it's the other way around:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cinnamon in full dress:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is Spice, the dominant female albimarginata. I had trouble getting a good pic of her:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Cinnamon is in the middle, Ginger is on the left, Spice is on the right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> And the 4 imbellis being clowns. They refuse to hold still for pictures:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> And Mr. Smaragdina popped out to say hi. Ignore his algae-tastic tank >.<


You should cross your imbellis with your smaragdina and see how the frys turn out id love to see


----------



## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Great pics. Thanks.
> 
> I thought your smarigdina was more bluish with red. Where did I get that idea? From what I can see, he looks just like mine.


Oh yeah, that was me, he's just taken his sweet time coloring up. The red is new  So far the red is mostly just splotches on his fins, but I have a feeling it might extend onto his body. When he's in a good mood his body currently looks like it's got a solid blue iridescence scalloping his scales, like a pineapple effect.



Setsuna said:


> You should cross your imbellis with your smaragdina and see how the frys turn out id love to see


If I knew I could find them homes I might try that, but I've got no use for hybrids myself so I guess that's something to think about in the future once I've got an actual base of people who like to buy fry from me.


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> Oh yeah, that was me, he's just taken his sweet time coloring up. The red is new  So far the red is mostly just splotches on his fins, but I have a feeling it might extend onto his body. When he's in a good mood his body currently looks like it's got a solid blue iridescence scalloping his scales, like a pineapple effect.
> 
> 
> If I knew I could find them homes I might try that, but I've got no use for hybrids myself so I guess that's something to think about in the future once I've got an actual base of people who like to buy fry from me.


Im sure users/members here would want some


----------



## dragon tamer

you could call them dragons ! LOL 

I had a pair of pugnax years ago that I know folks are not very into but... 
I think this is mostly due to the fact that they need to be in breeding condition to show their true beauty. If I had a digital photo of them I would post it but it was before all that at least in my life so All I have are film photos. When in breeding condition both the male and the female colored up with the softest sky blue to mint green metallics over tan to russet colored base with dark accents of charcoal around the face and fins. They were gorgeous not only in color but the shape and pattern on the fins as well. add to that they were really hardy, stable in personality once they settled in and I never had an issue with them jumping( that was the pi , Lost everyone of them, they were horribly nervous and either jumped or wedged themselves into a jam so they couldn't breath and died. Not very attractive either.) To make things worse they were fantastic spawners to the point that they had to be separated to keep the female from killing the male with starvation. I wish I had had this resource and that I could have obtained more males. I am setting up a tank this week for a trio as i have found a source for them and will be ordering them as soon as i return home from NY next week. I'll get pics up as soon as I have them in color so you can see what I mean about the colors and patterns. I really love the splendens complex and macrostoma are intriguing to me but pugnax and the related rajan are the most captivating to me .


----------



## Hallyx

babystarz said:


> When he's in a good mood his body currently looks like it's got a solid blue iridescence scalloping his scales, like a pineapple effect.


You mean like this?


----------



## Setsuna

Hallyx said:


> You mean like this?


Nice smaragdina i just got me a pair and now im trying to get another male


----------



## babystarz

dragon tamer said:


> you could call them dragons ! LOL
> 
> I had a pair of pugnax years ago that I know folks are not very into but...
> I think this is mostly due to the fact that they need to be in breeding condition to show their true beauty. If I had a digital photo of them I would post it but it was before all that at least in my life so All I have are film photos. When in breeding condition both the male and the female colored up with the softest sky blue to mint green metallics over tan to russet colored base with dark accents of charcoal around the face and fins. They were gorgeous not only in color but the shape and pattern on the fins as well. add to that they were really hardy, stable in personality once they settled in and I never had an issue with them jumping( that was the pi , Lost everyone of them, they were horribly nervous and either jumped or wedged themselves into a jam so they couldn't breath and died. Not very attractive either.) To make things worse they were fantastic spawners to the point that they had to be separated to keep the female from killing the male with starvation. I wish I had had this resource and that I could have obtained more males. I am setting up a tank this week for a trio as i have found a source for them and will be ordering them as soon as i return home from NY next week. I'll get pics up as soon as I have them in color so you can see what I mean about the colors and patterns. I really love the splendens complex and macrostoma are intriguing to me but pugnax and the related rajan are the most captivating to me .


That's awesome, I can't wait to see pictures of your pugnax! I don't know much about them so I would love to hear more about your firsthand experience. I saw a pair on AquaBid a while ago and I was curious to learn more. It makes sense that they're dull out of breeding mode, I guess that's true of many species. I know my albimarginata never look so good as they do when they're territorial and horny XD Macrostoma are very interesting, but from what I've heard they're a total pain to get to breed and hold eggs.



Hallyx said:


> You mean like this?


Your boy is gorgeous! Mine looks a little more emerald like yours in blackwater. He's not quite as bright as yours in normal water, and his body seems closer to a royal blue (although the gill covers still look kinda turquoise). This could change, all of my wilds are just now coming into their full coloration since they arrived as juveniles  I'm seeing lots more spots lately.



Setsuna said:


> Nice smaragdina i just got me a pair and now im trying to get another male


Cool! From your cousin or domestically? They're pretty easy to find in the states but I'm sure you have access to more color variation from your cousin.


My ocellatas will be here on Tuesday! Had a bit of a shipping hitch thanks to Paypal or they would have been here earlier, but I'm fine with the delay. It gives me more time to figure out tank options. I know there will be at least 4, I don't know the final gender breakdown. There are for sure 2 males and 1 female.


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> That's awesome, I can't wait to see pictures of your pugnax! I don't know much about them so I would love to hear more about your firsthand experience. I saw a pair on AquaBid a while ago and I was curious to learn more. It makes sense that they're dull out of breeding mode, I guess that's true of many species. I know my albimarginata never look so good as they do when they're territorial and horny XD Macrostoma are very interesting, but from what I've heard they're a total pain to get to breed and hold eggs.
> 
> 
> 
> Your boy is gorgeous! Mine looks a little more emerald like yours in blackwater. He's not quite as bright as yours in normal water, and his body seems closer to a royal blue (although the gill covers still look kinda turquoise). This could change, all of my wilds are just now coming into their full coloration since they arrived as juveniles  I'm seeing lots more spots lately.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool! From your cousin or domestically? They're pretty easy to find in the states but I'm sure you have access to more color variation from your cousin.
> 
> 
> My ocellatas will be here on Tuesday! Had a bit of a shipping hitch thanks to Paypal or they would have been here earlier, but I'm fine with the delay. It gives me more time to figure out tank options. I know there will be at least 4, I don't know the final gender breakdown. There are for sure 2 males and 1 female.


i got that pair from my cousin there is no way i can find 1 in the states


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## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> i got that pair from my cousin there is no way i can find 1 in the states


I know that Anthony at the Wet Spot often carries them  That's where I got mine. His email address is [email protected]


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> I know that Anthony at the Wet Spot often carries them  That's where I got mine. His email address is [email protected]


Oohhh so you my friend got the 6 pack imbellis? I like imbellis alot too due to thier fin color im also starting to like wild guitar smaragdinas too


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## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> Oohhh so you my friend got the 6 pack imbellis? I like imbellis alot too due to thier fin color im also starting to like wild guitar smaragdinas too


Yep I did. Two died, but it was well after I got them. They were all healthy when they arrived. They were the two small shy ones and one suddenly wouldn't eat no matter what I fed them, and I accidentally crushed the other one when I was trying to clean around a piece of driftwood and it fell off the lava rock I had it balanced on :-( I no longer balance driftwood on anything.

The two imbellis boys are starting to look really pretty. They both have bright blue and red in their fins. One has more of a greeny blue than the other. And the girls are sort of a tan with dark brown strips on their bodies and rusty red spots on their fins.

I think wild guitar smaragdina are lovely too!


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## dragon tamer

guitar and mahachaiensis are incredibly beautiful . Imbellis are one of my all time favorites as well. I have been keeping and breeding seahorses for years and after the last tank break down lasted so long I got out of aquariums altogether. I got this plakat betta spawn from a local breeder and now I am way into it again . It is awesome to me that the fish I have been into the most over all is also relatively low maintenance. The 12 bowfront I have going now is put together from one of my seahorse setups and is running with reef lighting in a time cycling through night blue actinic (awesome color rendering!)and daylight with only a protein skimmer as filter. Of course I am siphoning food and droppings off the bottom daily and refilling so the protein skimmer does little but provide current and aeration but it does burble up some sludge periodically and I feel good about that. I suspect it will do more as the tank ages.


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## babystarz

Haha, I'm so bad! I bought a pair of wild caught patoti from a seller in Asia. I'm sending my smaragdina to Setsuna so she can breed them (I figure with her methods she'll get a lot more fry out of them than I would), and the patoti will go in the free tank.

Now tie me to a chair before I spend any more money!


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha I have $255 of fish (three pairs at $85 each) hopefully coming from Hermanus in Indonesia sometime soon. So excited and terrified that I am going to end up with a DOA or have them die while in quarantine etc. 

Had to make the hard decision and euthanise all my brownorum yesterday. They just didn't recover well from the velvet and were not eating and looking absolutely terrible. My other fish all recovered well so I don't know why those guys got knocked around so badly. 

My fish room feels a bit empty now. I only have 13 or so tanks running now. Hoping that my forthcoming pairs arrive safely and spawn for me. Would love to get some more wild fry species in my grow-outs. So far I only have unimaculata, rutilans, persephone, my tussyae sub-adult and my lonely brownorum fry.


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> Haha, I'm so bad! I bought a pair of wild caught patoti from a seller in Asia. I'm sending my smaragdina to Setsuna so she can breed them (I figure with her methods she'll get a lot more fry out of them than I would), and the patoti will go in the free tank.
> 
> Now tie me to a chair before I spend any more money!


Hahahaha LMAO setsunas a guy sorry if my name throw you off


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Haha I have $255 of fish (three pairs at $85 each) hopefully coming from Hermanus in Indonesia sometime soon. So excited and terrified that I am going to end up with a DOA or have them die while in quarantine etc.


Well that makes me feel a bit better about my impulse buy! I hope you've got a live arrival guarantee. What species are they?



LittleBettaFish said:


> Had to make the hard decision and euthanise all my brownorum yesterday. They just didn't recover well from the velvet and were not eating and looking absolutely terrible. My other fish all recovered well so I don't know why those guys got knocked around so badly.


I'm sorry  That is strange that they didn't recover. I wonder if perhaps the strain of velvet they ended up with is a mutated version that only exists in aquariums? That would explain why a wild fish's immune system might have trouble with it. I worry about that possibility with my wilds.


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## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> Hahahaha LMAO setsunas a guy sorry if my name throw you off


LOL good to know  I did assume from the username that you were female, I should know by now not to do that!


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## LittleBettaFish

Species are burdigala, uberis and brownorum. Brownorum are wild-caught while the other two are captive bred. Decided to completely re-do the way I house my wilds and use peat moss, a very dense leaf litter and only a very small amount of java moss in each tank. May or may not put some hydrilla in to help with water quality. Think this way I can get the pH down as low as possible without needing rainwater. 

There is a live guarantee in that you get your fish replaced if it arrives dead at your home. However, not sure how I will get one part of a pair replaced if this is a special bulk order from Indonesia. 

I don't know why my brownorum didn't get better. It could have been they just had it worse or the medication affected them more adversely than in the other tanks. 

The species I keep come from very low pH environments (I think 3-4 in some cases). A lot of bacteria can't exist in such an acidic environment so when exposed to a higher pH, the fish have little to no immunity to the bacteria present and can become sick. I do wonder if it was not my wild-caught bettas who first got it due to stress and who then spread it to all the other tanks. 

Will have to get some more photos of my fry growing out. Think my rutilans are almost big enough to get their photo taken. The two ones in with mum and dad are growing fast even without me having fed them at all.


----------



## Hallyx

LittleBettaFish said:


> Had to make the hard decision and euthanise all my brownorum yesterday.


Ohhh...That's really a shame. I like that type a lot. I have such a hard time when losing just a single fish. Maybe because I only keep a few individuals as pets.

Are there different color phase smarigdina? I've seen the bluish ones like Babystarz's. There's the tan/turquoise ones like mine. and there's this brown/gold kind (these are two different fish):


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## Setsuna

Hallyx said:


> Ohhh...That's really a shame. I like that type a lot. I have such a hard time when losing just a single fish. Maybe because I only keep a few individuals as pets.
> 
> Are there different color phase smarigdina? I've seen the bluish ones like Babystarz's. There's the tan/turquoise ones like mine. and there's this brown/gold kind (these are two different fish):


These are smaragdina too but these are hybryids not fullbloods. Fullblood smaragdinas is emerald in color and anal fin is light orange im sure you seen them before


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## dragon tamer

I'm curious if anyone de-worms their wild caught fish when they are in quarantine and what medication was used to treat the velvet on your fish littlefish. I know sometimes it is really difficult to get rid of. I wonder if a worm load ,might have something to do with it. Do you all use any prophylactic treatments of the fish when they come in.my standard practice is fomalin and malachitegreen for velvet with a temp increase to 82 and an 1/8 tsp maarine salt per gallonup to a teaspoon per ten.


----------



## Mahachai

Hallyx said:


> Ohhh...That's really a shame. I like that type a lot. I have such a hard time when losing just a single fish. Maybe because I only keep a few individuals as pets.
> 
> Are there different color phase smarigdina? I've seen the bluish ones like Babystarz's. There's the tan/turquoise ones like mine. and there's this brown/gold kind (these are two different fish):


That's a copper smaragdina. And like Sets said he's not an original smaragdina because of interbreed with a different species to get that copper scale but, might catch a higher price if you do plan to get one. Like that copper smaragdina, I have a metallic mahachai. True species or not all bettas are beautiful within the eye of the beholder. :-D


----------



## Setsuna

dragon tamer said:


> I'm curious if anyone de-worms their wild caught fish when they are in quarantine and what medication was used to treat the velvet on your fish littlefish. I know sometimes it is really difficult to get rid of. I wonder if a worm load ,might have something to do with it. Do you all use any prophylactic treatments of the fish when they come in.my standard practice is fomalin and malachitegreen for velvet with a temp increase to 82 and an 1/8 tsp maarine salt per gallonup to a teaspoon per ten.


Well i dont use anything other then IAL when my fish arrives from oversea. bettas from the splenden complex group is very tolerant of water so i dont use anything. I know that mouthbrooders are water/PH sensative especially macrostomas.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Excluding macrostoma (they are a touch more sensitive), I found my mouthbrooders have been the most tolerant of any of the wild bettas I have kept. My albis and channoides didn't care what conditions I housed them in and my unimaculata male is living happily in a community tank down in my rumpus. 

I don't bother worming my wild bettas. Metro needs a vet prescription here so we have to use a pig and poultry wormer instead. Only once have I had a fish (not a wild species) sick from a large worm load he was carrying. Except for the velvet my wild bettas have always been in top notch health and breeding form. 

Other medications are also severely limited here. I was using a brand of medication called Ichonex that had copper sulfate or something similar along with malachite green. I know copper can be dangerous at lower pH levels but all my other fish and fry were treated with it to no ill-effect. Tanks were also blacked out, and temperature raised to around 30 degrees celsius. 

My other fish have shown no signs of the disease returning. It is very difficult on these species to firstly get a good enough look at them and secondly to differentiate between velvet and natural iridescence. 

I do have some malachite green and formalin, but it has absolutely no dosage instructions whatsoever. This is what I pulled off their website:



> Short bath 2-4 minutes per 10 litres for 1 hour, once a day for 3 consecutive days.
> 
> For long term use use at a reduced rate of 1ml per 40 litres.


But I have no idea how toxic those ingredients are and how long I can dose it without it making my fish keel over. 

Anyway, here are two very poor shots I got of my kids yesterday while fiddling around with their tank. 










*









*Don't know why the red shows up so strongly in photos. One of them in real life has a completely blue tail now and yet it still looks red in the photo.


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## Setsuna

My Wild imbellis males flaring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bRHtKp6mPU
both are wild caught


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## PitGurl

My guitar smaragdina spawned today :-D. I don't think I can get the female out because of all the hiding places, I would destroy the nest trying. Hopefully she'll stay hidden and I can remove her and him once they fry are free swimming.


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## Setsuna

PitGurl said:


> My guitar smaragdina spawned today :-D. I don't think I can get the female out because of all the hiding places, I would destroy the nest trying. Hopefully she'll stay hidden and I can remove her and him once they fry are free swimming.


Epic! Show us pictures and videos?


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## PitGurl

They spawned while I was at work. I'm trying not to disturb them, I'm worried the male may eat the eggs if he gets freaked out. I'll get photos as soon as he's out of the tank though.


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## babystarz

Yay, congrats Pitgurl! That is fantastic news  

The only spawning happening for me is the guppies in the living room XD I bought them for that tank because people never saw the betta when he was in there. I can see two fry. 

I think the bettas are just too young still to do it right!


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## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Ohhh...That's really a shame. I like that type a lot. I have such a hard time when losing just a single fish. Maybe because I only keep a few individuals as pets.
> 
> Are there different color phase smarigdina? I've seen the bluish ones like Babystarz's. There's the tan/turquoise ones like mine. and there's this brown/gold kind (these are two different fish):


I've been thinking about this and reviewing the literature I've come across, and one note about ocellata made me wonder. Specimens caught in low pH environments and blackwater tend to have yellow coloration. Those caught in streams and clear pools with water moving through them have blue coloration. I wonder if this explanation holds true for other species? It's hard to tell with smaragdina and imbellis here because goodness knows how many generations removed they are from being born in the wild or how mixed they've become with other populations that never would have interacted in the wild without human intervention. But as far as being a source of variation, it makes sense. We know multiple species span habitats with varying water conditions.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Took some photos of my unimaculata fry now they are getting big enough for my camera to focus on (the biggest is maybe 2-2.5cm). Think I have at least two males in there as they were sparring after a water change and feed and showed some faint male colouration. 





































Also these are my two biggest persephone fry having a face-off. As you can see they can darken up quite dramatically from their normal juvenile colouration. 

Would have had more photos but my photobucket refuses to load on either FF, IE or Chrome and Tinypic is a pain in the butt.


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## dragon tamer

I have read that discus and some angels will carry the same hues in the same conditions ie Black water brings out reds. It doesn't seem that would be adaptive as the blues are reflective colors and therefore should be easier seen in dark stained water. Iron was also a big indicator of color if i remember correctly. 

Re: formalin I am reading 11.2 % formalin on the medication I have by Kordon with zinc free chloride salt of malachite green (no concentration given) dosed at a rate of 5ml/27.8 L(10gal) or 10drops/gal 
I have used it a twice the dosing ate for a week and kept the fish alive and she is now velvet free tomorrow she gets fresh untreated water so we'll see if it stays away. It has always been an effective treatment for velvet for me. Now will she produce viable eggs?? also CA has banned formalin from what I have heard because formaldehyde is carcinogenic. Now if they can just ban the cars they'll be doing great. I've been elbow deep in it for 30 years- I'm waiting for them to mutate into flashy pectoral fins.
I won't touch copper based meds because of my marine background.There wAS A MERCURY PRODUCT CALLED DIPEX i HAVE USED WITH GREAT SUCCESS IN THE PAAST BUT IT'S A CURE EM OR KILLEM TACTIC.oops caps sorry 

the temp increase is critical.


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## dragon tamer

and regarding wilds and water quality My pugnax and my pi had no concerns about water quality. I can see why pi never got popular but pugnax were so easy to color up and made such nice display animals I just don't get it .


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## PitGurl

Wigglers !


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## babystarz

SQUEE!!!! The ocellata are here  My first hint of their personalities came when they were still in their bags. They weren't freaking out, in fact they seemed quite calm. Once they were able to explore the tank they didn't hide right away either. I have a feeling they'll quickly learn to ham it up for treats when I'm in the room 

Camera battery is charging.

Edit: Scratch that, one is being timid. I think it's the female. I know Cody sent me 1 female and 2 males, but he didn't mention what sex the extra one was XD It could be a small male so I can't tell.


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## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> SQUEE!!!! The ocellata are here  My first hint of their personalities came when they were still in their bags. They weren't freaking out, in fact they seemed quite calm. Once they were able to explore the tank they didn't hide right away either. I have a feeling they'll quickly learn to ham it up for treats when I'm in the room
> 
> Camera battery is charging.
> 
> Edit: Scratch that, one is being timid. I think it's the female. I know Cody sent me 1 female and 2 males, but he didn't mention what sex the extra one was XD It could be a small male so I can't tell.


Nice, i just bought 2 more guitar smaragdina


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## babystarz

Awesome Setsuna! Where are they coming from? I can't wait to see some little guitar fry  
My fish shipping bags arrived too, so as soon as I've got a heatpack Mr. and Mrs. Smaragdina will be on their way to you.


Cody doesn't know the sex of the 4th ocellata either  He thinks it might be a girl but it's a bit too small to sex yet. So you can all have fun guessing with me.


----------



## Setsuna

Both of these guys are coming from Thailand


----------



## PitGurl

@ setsuna- Did you get a guitar female?


----------



## Setsuna

PitGurl said:


> @ setsuna- Did you get a guitar female?


with both these guys no i only bought them but do i have a female? yes i do.
i already have my first batch of guitars


----------



## PitGurl

Baby Guitars...


----------



## Setsuna

PitGurl said:


> Baby Guitars...


Nice


----------



## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> Awesome Setsuna! Where are they coming from? I can't wait to see some little guitar fry
> My fish shipping bags arrived too, so as soon as I've got a heatpack Mr. and Mrs. Smaragdina will be on their way to you.
> 
> 
> Cody doesn't know the sex of the 4th ocellata either  He thinks it might be a girl but it's a bit too small to sex yet. So you can all have fun guessing with me.


Okay thats fine. I'll ship 2 pair of my frys from this batch to you


----------



## ChoclateBetta

The Smarginia remind me of Chocolates.


----------



## babystarz

I've finally gotten enough good looks at Mr. Smaragdina to be confident in saying he's pink with blue iridescence.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I want B.Imbellis or Betta fighter after Carter.


----------



## Setsuna

ChoclateBetta said:


> I want B.Imbellis or Betta fighter after Carter.


Imbellis is best if you like a good looking fish


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Congrats on the fry Pitgurl and good luck with growing them out. Nothing more rewarding than having your wilds successfully spawn. At least you know they are happy and comfortable in their tank.


I decided to tear apart my rutilans tank again yesterday and pulled out around 10 or so fry of varying sizes. Took me around 40 minutes to get them all out. Then today I look in the parents' tank and see two fry still swimming around in there! 

They are like little ninjas I swear. They weren't even that small either so don't know how I missed them. 

Gives me 20 rutilans in the grow-out so quite happy with that considering the parents and their adult siblings nearly died (two did) only a couple of months back. 

My palangkarensis still have some velvet but I decided to divide their quarantine/hospital tank and separate the two pairs. Both females display vertical barring when they go near the males so who knows if I can get them feeling well enough to spawn.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Setsuna said:


> Imbellis is best if you like a good looking fish


 The fighters you showed me are beatiful.


----------



## Setsuna

ChoclateBetta said:


> The fighters you showed me are beatiful.


Okay thats kool. If you do buy one please show us


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Its sad I only have one Betta.


----------



## babystarz

Ok now that the ocellata have settled in it's clear there are two pairs :-D


----------



## Setsuna

Pretty tank too


----------



## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> Pretty tank too


Thanks, it's a work in progress. It was my first attempt at a planted tank, and I've had some successes and failures with it. I try to keep it pretty natural. I recently added an upside down herb planter I got at Lowe's on clearance, it's the perfect cave for the ocellatas. It has four entrances with awnings  You can kind of see it in a few of the pictures. They also like the mason jar with the marimo ball in it, and the tiny terra cotta pot stuffed with pellia. Otherwise there are just rocks and plants, mostly low light ones. Lots of java fern, anubias, and mosses and some frogbit. And the remnants of my giant purple dwarf lily; two little baby plants were left behind when I pulled it out. And there are a few unidentified bits that tagged along with shipped plants. I think I might have some form of ludwigia.

The tank is slightly overstocked with the extra female in there, but they're all siblings and they have enough private areas and plant cover that I think they'll do ok in there. If they seem to be getting territorial I'll move one pair out. But they're very relaxed with each other honestly, and the females each prefer one male so it works out well now.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

There so peaceful looking.


----------



## babystarz

They are peaceful, and very curious about me. You can see by the way they're posing that they come right up to the front of the tank to look at me. They do get spooked sometimes and jump, and since they're so big they can jump high. I have the tank lid taped down around the edges. I should probably reinforce the tape too.

The bigger female looks like she could be eggy to me. She's round in the right spot.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Aww. I find them interesting what they lack in colors they make up in personality.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah definitely be careful with their jumping abilities. They will find the smallest possible gap and squeeze through it so don't leave the lid off for a second unattended. My unimaculata and ideii used to jump out at me during feeding because they got so excited and unlike splendens they actually get right out of the tank. 

The bettas of that complex are very personable though and extreme pigs. My unimaculata male used to sit vertically in the water waiting for me to drop in some food. Reminded me of a begging dog haha.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

How do you seal all spots in an aquarium?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

For my smaller wilds I just use cling wrap as that goes over all the cords. 

For my bigger wilds such as ideii and unimaculata I use a glass lid and then cling wrap over the top of that. As my unimaculata were wild-caught and obsessed with smashing into the top glass I would put a towel over that for extra protection. 

I once had a tiny little gap where I had knocked the corner of the lid off my tussyae juvenile tank. Lost 4/5 fry in the two hours I was gone out. Death by jumping is still the main killer of my wild bettas as even when I think my tanks are escape proof they prove me wrong. 

I have only lost my unimaculata female lately as she jumped out and must have injured herself falling from my rack because I found her a few minutes later.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I would also use a very tall tank and use part of it.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

The bigger ones can jump extremely high. The trouble with wilds is if they want to get out they are going to get out. My ideii female's party trick is to jump at you while you are feeding her. She is as big as a macrostoma and so a very athletic jumper. 

Splendens are nothing compared to how jumpy wilds can be. I think sometimes with mine the cats spook them in the night and so they get a fright and shoot upwards rather than downwards. 

With that said I had my rutilans with a lid that only half covered their tank for around a year and they never once attempted to jump out. Now I have it fully covered as they are too important to me to lose.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Tell me about your Rutilens?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

What do you want to know? They were my first real foray into wild bettas and when I got them they were extremely small and I believe wild-caught. 

Mine are different from most rutilans in that they are not red but have a green sheen down their sides. Apparently they are called _Betta sp. cf. rutilans_ green. 

They are pretty slow maturing and my first group of fry only just reached adult size at around a year of age. 

They caught velvet recently and I lost two or three of their offspring but managed to get everyone else back to health.

Now at two years old they have given me 20 odd fry that I am currently growing out.

They are quite an aggressive species, but very prolific once you get conditions right. My male can easily spawn once or twice a week, but catching all the fry before they die off or get eaten by older siblings is another thing altogether.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

These are my rutilans before they got velvet and I separated out the parents


----------



## ChoclateBetta

They sound great.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah they are. Only downside is they are extremely difficult to correctly sex. Males and females can look practically identical. I still don't know what gender any of my adult offspring are.

Only way I could tell mum and dad apart is that the dad is huge compared to everyone else and mum has a big dip in her topline near her head. I did think that perhaps she had died after I put them in together and she came out missing half her dorsal and some of her caudal. However, that was just them courting and they spawned pretty soon after.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Do they interact with you?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

All of the species in this complex (including my rutilans) can be quite shy, and since around 90% of my tanks are dedicated to housing them, I can sometimes go a whole day without seeing any more than a glimpse of any of them. 

However, they will come out during feeding time and just to see what I am doing. If I tap on the glass most of them will pop out and have a quick sticky beak before vanishing. 

With that said, the persephone juveniles I am growing out are all very friendly and spend most of their time smooshed up against the glass wanting to be fed. The only problem with not being able to see the fish as much is that it is ten times harder to check on their health and general well-being.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Big foot fish do they excist?


----------



## PitGurl

more babies....


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Took a couple of quick photos of my tussyae juvenile. Unfortunately, it is not as coloured up as it used to be as I think it misses having its siblings around. I sometimes put the mirror up against the glass to give it something to look at. 

Have no idea what gender it is either. 




































This is just a temporary tank until it reaches adult size.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Love the moss.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Love the moss.


The one thing wilds need to feel secure in their tanks is lots of moss cover. Especially the shy ones.

Speaking of shy fish, I saw Mrs. Smaragdina yesterday! In fact, I thought she was dead because she was sitting on top of the sponge filter and didn't hide when I came in the room. I dipped my finger in the tank right in front of her and she still didn't move, so then I panicked and smacked the side of the tank and she freaked out and hid. And then I mentally kicked myself for doing the worst possible thing I could have chosen to do, lol! Watch her hide for 3 weeks now. I'm worried I won't be able to find her to send to Setsuna haha.


----------



## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> The one thing wilds need to feel secure in their tanks is lots of moss cover. Especially the shy ones.
> 
> Speaking of shy fish, I saw Mrs. Smaragdina yesterday! In fact, I thought she was dead because she was sitting on top of the sponge filter and didn't hide when I came in the room. I dipped my finger in the tank right in front of her and she still didn't move, so then I panicked and smacked the side of the tank and she freaked out and hid. And then I mentally kicked myself for doing the worst possible thing I could have chosen to do, lol! Watch her hide for 3 weeks now. I'm worried I won't be able to find her to send to Setsuna haha.


She'll be find she just scared thats all


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What about the not moving?


----------



## Hallyx

LBF,

I like your new avatar. Is that your last remaining slendens?

Why is your water not weird and yellow like mine? I have IAL in there now. It doesn't make my smarigdina's colors "pop." In fact it makes him harder to see.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> What about the not moving?


She was just hanging out, she does that. I think she freezes when she's scared sometimes. I saw her swimming around the tank today, Mr. Smaragdina thinks he can make her love him if he chases her around lol. He's made a new bubble nest and he's determined to corral her over to it. I recently put a lot more IAL into their tank and they seem a little more active now, like they're comfortable being out in the open areas now that the water is dark.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Hallyx, that is one of my two remaining splendens. Unfortunately, my beautiful little CT female has a massive tumor forming on her top lip and I will not be able to afford to replace her until I can find a job. 

I have to spend my remaining money on boring but necessary things such as Prime water conditioner, IAL and blackworms haha. 

Also, I don't know why your water is cloudy and mine isn't. When I first set-up a tank with lots of peat moss and IAL the water always goes cloudy and the glass gets like a slime layer built-up on it. However, I do 25% water changes once every second day on my wild betta tanks so after a couple of water changes the cloudiness and slime go away. 

I do also have a sponge filter in each of my tanks as I find with no filter you get cloudy water. 

But the water in all of my tanks is pretty clear unless I am impatient with my water changes and stir up all the peat moss. Also most of the glass on my tanks is low iron so it makes for awesome pictures. 

In other news, Mrs Ideii escaped her breeders' net into my brother's community tank, which also houses my licorice gouramis and unimaculata male. Last time she got out she killed this annoying smelt like fish that would always constantly be harassing everyone. Then when I was trying to get her back in my blasted unimaculata started attacking my hand and splashing around thinking it was dinner. 

So I have decided that they are going to share a divided 15 gallon tank. Going to buy some nice ceramic 'breeding' caves for them each and fill up each side with hydrilla, duckweed and java moss. Then they can just live downstairs with a *very* heavy duty lid on. 

Didn't want to chance putting them together as she can be very mean and is about two times his size. Hopefully, I get a female from his fry that I can pair him up with at a later date. 

Also moved my tussyae juvenile's tank next to my unimaculata grow-out and it is loving having all that company through the glass. Its colour has all come back and all the unimaculata crowd on one side looking in at what their neighbour has to eat.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

My IAL is not working the best.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> My IAL is not working the best.


How so?


----------



## Hallyx

My water isn't cloudy at all. It's just amber from the IAL. I tried Rooibos a few weeks ago. The water got quite dark and more brownish than IAL. Made the fish nearly impossible to see. He could sneak right up to the feeding stick without my seeing him until he was almost on it.

With IAL I can see him better (those few seconds during feeding) but his natural coloration is obscured by the tint and his contrasting colors don't stand out at all.

Mostly I was wondering why your pictures don't look yellowish like mine.


----------



## babystarz

My wild-caught Betta Patoti pair has arrived in the U.S.! Just waiting for them to get to me from the trans shipper 

This is the pic provided by the seller. I'm not sure if the male's mouth is really that blue, or if it's just a result of light reflecting and the camera catching it:


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Oh the water in my tanks is really dark brown. I just chuck a T5HO 50 watt light over the top of my tanks when taking a photo so it washes out a lot of the tannins. 

My persephone grow-out tank looks orange usually as I have about 5 or so medium-sized IALs in there at any one time. 

This one is a good example of how dark I keep my tanks.










Ignore how messy everything looks. My set-up is a bit slicker looking now since I changed things around.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

babystarz said:


> How so?


 _It gets super soggy and ready to break the first day._


----------



## LittleBettaFish

What grade leaf are you using? Could have something to do with it. Mine usually take a day or two to sink and then break down fully after a few weeks of being submersed.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> _It gets super soggy and ready to break the first day._


Sometimes breaking it into smaller chunks before putting it in the water helps, at least then when the leaf bits sink they're not covering up half the tank. As long as the tannins are getting into the water you're good. Or if you want Carter to be able to blow bubble nests under them, you could use tape to attach the leaf to the sides of the tank to help prevent sinking for a while.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

C Grade.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Does C grade have holes in it? Maybe that has something to do it. 

I wouldn't worry too much if the leaf goes soggy. I have skeletons of IALs (no actual leaf left, just the veins) and they don't cause any issues. Like Babystarz says as long as they are still providing tannins that is all that really matters.

I finally got my dad's camcorder thing working so decided to shoot a video of my fry in their grow-outs. Will try and get a video tour of all my wild betta tanks this afternoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07tHa1_xVsI


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> I wouldn't worry too much if the leaf goes soggy. I have skeletons of IALs (no actual leaf left, just the veins) and they don't cause any issues.


Yep me too, IAL leaf litter is found in their natural habitats so I keep the leaves in with them until they disintegrate. Eventually I pull out a bare stick.

My grade C's have cracks in them so I would say 3 out of 4 sink in the first 48 hours. I've had one that floated for almost two weeks though.

LBF I can't wait for the video tour!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Where did you get the live food holder? I dont think IAL is all in there habitat probaly just better than other leaves actualy in there habitat and easier to cultivate. The bark of the teee is used in Cancer and other parts for other problems.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have started using alder cones in my tanks as apparently they are good at softening water and providing tannins. I also use alder leaves (we have three big trees in our yard) although they don't last as long as IAL or oak. 

I am planning with my new wild pairs on using only peat moss on the bottom and then covering this in a 3-4 inch leaf litter with IAL, oak and alder. I'll be using some manzanita twigs and clay pipes as shelters and covering the surface in duckweed to assist with water quality. 

Got a lot of inspiration from foreign (French and German in particular) forums. Thank God for Google Translate for at least being able to provide the gist of what each post means!

I will be talking my way through my tour so everyone can see as I butcher the pronunciations of each species.

The worm cones are like a couple of bucks each from online. Your LFS or an online site should sell them.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Our LFS closed down plus they had terrible variety they said live plants are bad for aquariums.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

If you want them, you can order them from online sites. They are cheap as chips and handy if you are feeding live worms. 

However, since I get things in bulk the cost of shipping isn't too bad. If you are only after one it might not be worth it. I just use them as it makes my fish actually come up out of their hiding place so I can check them over and they can get used to my presence outside the tank.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What kind of foods can I keep in it?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I put white worms and blackworms in mine. They then poke out the sides. and the fish come along and pull them out and eat them.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> I just use them as it makes my fish actually come up out of their hiding place so I can check them over and they can get used to my presence outside the tank.


Great idea! I might have to get some for that purpose too.


----------



## Setsuna

babystarz said:


> Great idea! I might have to get some for that purpose too.


Get blood worms if theres any dont go for black worms i hear bad stuff about them


----------



## ChoclateBetta

LittleBettaFish said:


> I put white worms and blackworms in mine. They then poke out the sides. and the fish come along and pull them out and eat them.


 How many to put in for this guy?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have never run into any issues with blackworms. As long as you rinse them and store them correctly they are fine. All my fry are raised on blackworms once they get big enough, and my wild bettas get fed a diet predominately made up of them. 

ChoclateBetta, I don't really feed any specific amount. I just chuck some in and if they overeat I just fast them for a day or so until their stomach shrinks down again.

I forgot to say, our main importer into Australia feeds blackworms and she has some expensive and healthy fish. I've found they are good for getting size on your fry.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Here is the video I took of my fish rack/room. I did not realise I sounded so bogan and awkward until I watched it as I hate talking to a camera. Embarrassing. Turn the volume down and it's not so bad. 

Also, watch it in HD otherwise you will just see fuzzy blobs swimming around in large fuzzy square blobs. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrG4UmG9GaA&feature=youtu.be


----------



## PitGurl

Quick update on my Guitar fry...
Fry are a week old and doing good. I think there is anywhere from 50-100 fry, hard to tell. I'm having a hard time keeping the ammonia under control so I've started doing 25% water changes using a drip system. The spawn is in a 10 gallon filled just over half way. It has lots of live plants so I'm hoping that will help the ammonia issue. Fry are currently eating infusoria and walter worms. I've tried feeding BBS but the fry just ignore them. I think they're still too small to eat them. I also noticed the BBS die really quick once in the tank. Maybe because the soft water :-?


----------



## Setsuna

PitGurl said:


> Quick update on my Guitar fry...
> Fry are a week old and doing good. I think there is anywhere from 50-100 fry, hard to tell. I'm having a hard time keeping the ammonia under control so I've started doing 25% water changes using a drip system. The spawn is in a 10 gallon filled just over half way. It has lots of live plants so I'm hoping that will help the ammonia issue. Fry are currently eating infusoria and walter worms. I've tried feeding BBS but the fry just ignore them. I think they're still too small to eat them. I also noticed the BBS die really quick once in the tank. Maybe because the soft water :-?


You have too much water i dont want to discourage you but too much water is not good


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What do you mean by too much water?


----------



## Setsuna

ChoclateBetta said:


> What do you mean by too much water?


When i breed my bettas my breeding tank is 25% filled up only. Less water means less place to go less plase to go means food is easy to find.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Sponge Filters and IAL grow food.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Sponge Filters and IAL grow food.


This is true, but the babies get too big to see it pretty fast. Then they need slightly bigger live food. And live food can get all over the place.

The low water level is also required for two other reasons. 1, the babies don't need to swim far for air, and before that, the dad doesn't have to swim far putting eggs/non-swimming babies back in the nest (and with up to 100 eggs, thats hundreds of trips between the nest and the tank bottom). And 2, the humid layer of air in between the top of the water and the lid is crucial for proper labyrinth organ development. So having plenty of space there for water vapor to go is a good idea. Of course, this will vary to a degree depending on the breeder and technique.


----------



## Mo

This thread is AWESOME


----------



## babystarz

Mo said:


> This thread is AWESOME


It's definitely my favorite  I hope the length doesn't scare anyone away!


----------



## Hallyx

Mo said:


> This thread is AWESOME


+1^ The people who find it interesting will not be put off by its length.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

babystarz said:


> This is true, but the babies get too big to see it pretty fast. Then they need slightly bigger live food. And live food can get all over the place.
> 
> The low water level is also required for two other reasons. 1, the babies don't need to swim far for air, and before that, the dad doesn't have to swim far putting eggs/non-swimming babies back in the nest (and with up to 100 eggs, thats hundreds of trips between the nest and the tank bottom). And 2, the humid layer of air in between the top of the water and the lid is crucial for proper labyrinth organ development. So having plenty of space there for water vapor to go is a good idea. Of course, this will vary to a degree depending on the breeder and technique.


 Yeah I know but they still get a little extra food.


----------



## babystarz

The patoti are here!! A slight mixup with the post office meant they spent the weekend there, but they are totally fine. I assumed they might be rather shy at first, being wild-caught, but they're not AT ALL. They're very curious about me and exploring their temporary digs in my 10 gal with no hesitation. If this is what they look like when they're stressed, I can't wait to see them colored up. They got a little overexcited about the imbellis tank next door so I put up a barrier. I also taped the heck out of the tank lid so I can't open it until I remove the tape XD I figure I'm better safe than sorry when it comes to jumping, especially because that tank is a bit full, and on the top shelf. Fortunately the fish don't appear to startle easily.

I am moving them to the a 20 gal as soon as I ship the smaragdina pair to Setsuna (which I was supposed to do today, but that got pushed to tomorrow). I moved the light away from the patoti tank to let them settle in, I'll take pics tomorrow.

I left some pellets in with them, to see if they recognize them as food.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What species?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

If you mean Babystarz, she is talking about Betta patoti. A large mouthbrooder from the unimaculata complex.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Here are some quick photo updates of my fry and juvies in the grow-outs. Unimaculata fry are growing incredibly fast. Forgot how fast the growth rate is with the bigger guys compared to my 'reaches adult size in a year' coccina complex species. 




























Rutilans are also growing nicely. They have accepted my lone brownorum fry into their folds (it was getting outstripped in growth by the unimaculata and thought it would get eaten or bullied) and aside from a couple of very young fry in there, they are all eating grindals and growing in their ventral fins. 










Persephone are trudging along nicely as well. They are all getting quite big now so will someday soon have to move them into a 2ft tank to give them more space to get away from each other. 




























Finally my tussyae juvenile/sub-adult is much happier in his/her new location. It's out and about all the time now and coloured up a lot more. Although in these photos it wasn't happy with the bright light being moved over its tank.


----------



## babystarz

LBF, that brownorum fry is adorable. I don't know why, but its mouth looks beaky and cute. Also those are some glorious ventrals on your tussyae.

I have more exciting news! One of the ocellata pairs has successfully spawned. It turns out I was right about that female looking eggy. I didn't realize the male was holding eggs until last night because I fasted all the fish the day before, and I didn't notice if everyone ate the day before that. So the date of conception is ~ December 16th. If he's able to hold the babies until they're ready to be released, I might get some ocellata fry as belated Christmas presents 

Since this is his very first attempt at raising eggs I'm not going to be terribly upset with him if he gets hungry/spooked and swallows, but so far he's doing an exceedingly good job. He's staying in the upside down herb planter, he popped his head out far enough for me to see his swollen chin pouch last night but otherwise refused to come out. The females have turned into his bodyguards, they come out right away when I enter the room going "who's there?! Lemme at 'em! I will cut you!"

The patoti took pellets right away last night, no problem. They were ravenous after at least a week without food so they'd probably have taken anything I gave them.


----------



## babystarz

Ok, now both of the male ocellata appear to have eggs XD The other male is now refusing food and looks distinctly puffy-chinned. I'll know for sure on him in a few days. I may need to separate the females into their own tank if they're this fertile to give the males a break!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I am so glad you spawned them.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Congrats on hopefully getting them to spawn. Not all new dads swallow their fry. My unimaculata male held to term even with another male in there and me doing water changes every couple of days as it took a while for me to realise he was holding. 

I thought he'd swallowed until I had someone from another forum over and she pointed out there were tiny fry in the tank with the parents. 

Hope you have lots and lots of grow-outs handy. Mouthbrooders have so many fry, so many times once they get going. 

I have started setting up a tank in (hopeful) preparation for the arrival of my burdigala, uberis and brownorum pairs. Haven't heard from the shipper yet and they are due out of quarantine today so biting my nails right down thinking they were all DOA in Australia. 



















As you can see lots of leaves. This tank is divided up for my brownorum and uberis pairs. My burdigala will go into their own tank. 

Going to put a layer of peat moss down over the bottom, some twiggy branches I cut off some of my bigger pieces of aquarium wood, some dried long-fibre sphagnum moss (giving this a try as I have seen it used in killifish tanks) and a terracotta tunnel hide in there and then see how they go. Hopefully that will drop the pH right down. 

Got some more photos of my rutilans fry. Camera was telling me if I wanted to get better focused pictures I was going to have to put the macro lens on. 
































































This species is pretty aggro for some reason and so I have already sprung a couple of them flaring and circling each other. At 1/2 an inch in size.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

The Baby reminds me of my Guppy fry.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I think most fry at a certain age look pretty similar. However, apart from the first fry in the first three pictures who is the youngest in the tank, the others are all starting to look like miniature bettas. 

It's funny watching them try and flare at such a young age. If they are anything like their parents and adult siblings, they are going to grow up pretty ferocious.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

The only difference is my guppies have black fins and sometimes partly black bodies.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well I wish they would grow as fast as guppies. Would be a lot shorter wait for me. 

Just have to figure out where they are going to go once they are older. I get too attached to my fry. I would never make a good business woman. 

Good news is I think that I may have a male/female pair in their adult sibling group. Two of them are always hanging out together so might try them in a tank of their own once I have more money and space.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Mine grow faster than average they reach half the size for male guppies.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Hope you have lots and lots of grow-outs handy. Mouthbrooders have so many fry, so many times once they get going.


Yeah, realized that today! I have several 6 gallon acrylic tanks on hand for little fry and have ordered everything I need to set up a new shelf and two more 20 long tanks that will be fry growouts. I have a 14 gallon tank that isn't being used at the moment too. And another 10 gallon that will be free soon. I'm hoping between them all I can handle the fry. It all depends on when the other pairs start spawning too. Despite their apparent willingness, the albimarginata haven't successfully spawned again and the imbellis are a little clueless but the patoti are big enough to spawn now. I don't want to mix the patoti and ocellata fry because telling them apart will be impossible for a long time, so if that pair spawns soon too I may need to look into a 40-50 gallon tank. Fortunately there is a huge fishkeeping community here in MN (it's because of our winters, I swear) so I can probably find people interested in raising juveniles too.

I was reading some notes on breeding ocellata today and realized that between my water change and my downstairs neighbor's drum playing a few days ago, I may have unintentionally made the ocellata think monsoon season was starting. Apparently if you make thundery noises and do a slightly cooler temp water change, it can jumpstart spawning. Now I know what to do if I ever have problems spawning. Just call Nate downstairs and tell him to play really loud ;-)

LBF, are all those rutilans fry from the same spawn? Those full little bellies are so cute, the last one looks like it's about to pop!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah cool water changes, particularly if you are feeding lots of live foods always gets wild bettas spawning. I always do water changes with slightly cooler water when I am doing my wild betta tanks. 

They aren't from the same spawn, just the same parents. My male spawned about 3-4 times before I got in there and collected all the fry I could find out. I don't have as many as I could have if I did it in a purpose built spawning tank but at two years old their purpose in life isn't to breed, just to live happily.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

How many spawns do you get from a pair?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well when they are feeling up to it, some of my wild pairs can spawn once every week. Usually it's once every two weeks as that gives the male time to recover and put back on some condition that he loses while guarding the nest.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Wow!


----------



## PitGurl

Guitar fry are finally eating BBS....


----------



## LittleBettaFish

They look so tiny Pitgurl! I suppose it won't be long before they start looking less like tadpoles and more like fish. 

Have you tried to spawn the parents again, or just leaving them until you grow out your fry? I suppose at least smaragdina are slightly easier care wise than some other species so you probably have a broader market if you do sell any. The splendens complex seems a good one for those new to wild betta species. They are still fairly similar to domesticated splendens and don't need a super low pH or a particularly large tank to be happy. 

Got some exciting news of my own regarding my two palangkarensis pairs. They are all in together again after the females got through the divider and then it fell over so I put in heaps of leaf litter to help give the males some space. This included a whole heap of oak leaves my dad kindly collected from down his front driveway. 

Today one of the females was looking so barred up she looked like a zebra. I've never seen her so colourful and one of the males is stalking her around the tank (I think it's the bigger, more dominant one). I chucked some more oak leaves up top in case he was thinking of building a nest, and they have plenty of terracotta pots as other options. 

So hope they spawn for me. I love this species and it would be great to get some fry of my own now that everyone has finally recovered.


----------



## babystarz

I can confirm now that both of my ocellata males are definitely holding eggs  One has gone into complete seclusion, the other pops out to say hi but then turns away from food to go back to his corner and sit and wait.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I find it interesting you can keep them in pairs.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> I find it interesting you can keep them in pairs.


It's pretty awesome, they're very affectionate with each other. They like to rub up against each other, it's sort of like the fish version of cuddling  The females are very protective of the two males right now, like they're on guard duty to keep them safe.

The patoti were really happy to see me today. They already know which corner of the tank to station themselves at for food  They are honestly the least shy wild bettas I've ever seen and I think it's so funny, because they were born in the wild and the rest of my wilds are captive-bred! They seem to enjoy me being around.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Do you name your fish?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

This is how I name my wilds. Mr and Mrs Rutilans. Mrs Persephone. Tussyae Juvie. Mrs Ideii. 

Only my unimaculata male has a name 'Vulcan' because he is my mum's and she wanted to name him. But I just call him Mr Unimac. 

Oh and I forgot my biggest rutilans adult F1 is called 'Cannibal Lecter' after he used to eat all his younger siblings.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Is the cannibal a mouthbrooding species?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha nah he is a rutilans. But his dad does for some reason choose to mouthbrood over the usual method of nesting.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Dug this old photo up from July 2011 










I didn't actually realise he was so old now. No wonder he is about the same size as his father.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I want to build a Rice Paddy tank someday.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Do you name your fish?


I do, yes. But it usually takes me a few months to come up with something I like. And I'm not the most creative namer (hence Mr. and Mrs. Smaragdina). I tend to go with one theme for a species. So the albimarginata are all named after spices, for example. I think I might name the ocellata after Shakespeare characters.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I named Carter after his Fins.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

ChoclateBetta said:


> I want to build a Rice Paddy tank someday.


This person actually did

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/japanese-balcony-rice-paddy-final-harvest.23151/

And they got a bowl of rice out of it at the end.










I have been looking at pictures of the biotope habitats for my fish and trying to work out how to better mimic them. So far I think a base of peat moss with a large amount of leaf litter with some twiggy pieces and perhaps even a pothos or peace lily (for the roots) growing out the top would be the closest I could get to how these species live in the wild.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

If I ever have more room I am building one of those tanks.


----------



## babystarz

THAT IS AMAZING. Seriously. He got a bowl of rice out of it!

One of the male ocellatas swallowed his eggs. Derp. I guess he got hungry. He was back to eating at meal time today. The other one is still puffy-chinned and hiding out. He's a good daddy <3


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sorry to hear about the egg eating Babystarz. Sometimes the females can be so pushy the poor males have no choice but to go with it even if they aren't quite up to scratch condition wise to be holding.

Hopefully if your male does hold to term no one decides to munch on the fry before you can get them out. 

I realised why one of my palangkarensis pairs has not been spawning. I think I have my burdigala female in with one of the males and the actual palangkarensis female up in the tank with my uberis male. They used to be housed altogether and I thought I got everyone separated out correctly. Looks like I didn't.

Palangkarensis got moved into the divided tank I was saving for my new pairs. There is so much leaf litter that the water is a very dark orange. The actual pair have been barred up all day and the male is hanging up in the floating leaves so crossing everything that they spawn in the next couple of days.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Took some photos of my striped up palangkarensis female. She unfortunately, seems more interested in the male on the other side of the divider as her male is quite shy and wussy. I might remove the divider and just let them all in together now I have them sorted properly. 




























Very bad picture of their current tank set-up. Hoping to find some pothos to grow out of the top as I like the look of the roots in the water. 



















Rutilans fry getting big and fat on grindals.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

A wild Betta paldraium wiuld be interesting.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well palangkarensis are still playing coy, but I did manage to fish seven additional rutilans fry out of their parents' tank. Most are quite small having had to scavenge to survive, but they should shoot up now I have them on two - three meals a day.

I also am going to be the owner of a pair of Betta macrostoma next week, courtesy of my mum. She saw them in my not so LFS yesterday when I went in for IAL. She had to have them since her favourite complex is the unimaculata complex. So the owner of the store is holding them for us until I get a tank arranged for them. 

I don't think they are that old as they are not much bigger than my unimaculata male. However, I don't mind as that means I probably won't see any fry for a while. 

I just wish she got as excited about the coccina complex species as she did the bigger mouthbrooders. I think we opposite tastes in almost everything including fish!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

As you can see my fry and juveniles are thriving. The unimaculata fry are onto blackworms already and are nearly outstripping my persephone in growth even though they are about half their age. Rutilans fry are growing each day although there are some extremely tiny fry in there still. Think the photo I got of the red finned fry is possibly of the brownorum I had in there. Won't be able to tell until they grow out a bit more though. 

Unimaculata fry. Yes one of them is doing a poo. Only way I could get them all to stay still was by giving them some blackworms.














































This is my adult persephone female (she's unrelated to the juvies). Unfortunately, she jumped out a couple days back and got dragged along my carpet with a net since I couldn't reach her so her fins are not at their best. 
































































Some of the rutilans fry. Have roughly 25 of them now in this tank so moving them to a 7 gallon grow-out in a couple of days. 





































My tussyae juvenile (probably considered an adult now) also wanted to have its photo taken. I am thinking it might be a 'she' but it is hard to tell until it colours up more.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

What do you think of a Betta Paulrdrium?


----------



## babystarz

I HAVE FRY!!!!!

My heart fell when I stopped by to feed the ocellata today and both males came to eat. I figured the new daddy had panicked when the babies hatched and swallowed them.... until I saw a tiny baby! And then another! And another! I felt a bit guilty because I was gone when they were born, and I'm sure there were many more to begin with but so far I've managed to net and transfer 12 of them. There are a couple more evading capture XD

I'm a bit panicked because my worm cultures are all moldy and un-useable. I am hoping the fry will accept frozen bbs and 100-200 micron golden pearls until I have my bbs hatchery up and running. I should have started it earlier but I was counting on the worms. I have posted on the local fish forum so hopefully I can get some new cultures started right away.

I am unbelievably excited, this is my first wild betta spawn. Yaaaaay! Alright, off to chase those quick babies. The brine shrimp net is working beautifully.

LBF - love your pic updates! The palangkarensis are gorgeous.


----------



## babystarz

Fry transfer count is up to at least 15


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Congratulations Babystarz. Glad to see he held for you. Not every male is a bad first time dad. If you have a breeders' net or even a separate tank, I would probably advise you to stick him in there for a week or so and fatten him up on live/frozen foods and pellets. Otherwise you will find your female (I forget how many ocellata you own) will probably start pestering him again.

Much as people hate them on here, live blackworms are a great food for wild species bettas. The put a lot of condition and bulk on a fish and I have never run into any issues with them, even when my juveniles are swimming around like blimps after a meal.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Congratulations Babystarz. Glad to see he held for you. Not every male is a bad first time dad. If you have a breeders' net or even a separate tank, I would probably advise you to stick him in there for a week or so and fatten him up on live/frozen foods and pellets. Otherwise you will find your female (I forget how many ocellata you own) will probably start pestering him again.


I have 4 adults (2 males and 2 females) in a 20 Long, which has the same amount of horizontal space as a 30 G. Kind of close quarters so it's probably a good idea to remove one, although I think I might move the female instead of the male. The other female is younger than the rest and hasn't become eggy yet so I think it's safe to leave the males with her. I have been feeding them lots and lots of nummies, partly to avoid any remaining fry from becoming snacks. I know there are at least two of the little guys still in there, probably more. I'm up to at least 17 in the fry growout tank. The ones evading capture are so quick!



LittleBettaFish said:


> Much as people hate them on here, live blackworms are a great food for wild species bettas. The put a lot of condition and bulk on a fish and I have never run into any issues with them, even when my juveniles are swimming around like blimps after a meal.


Yes I may look into that, I know Tony sells them around here so I have access to a steady supply. How big are they?

I am leaving on vacation in a month for 7 days and I'm already a bit antsy about leaving the babies for that long. I think I'll have to train my roommate to feed them ;-)

I just did 1 big feeding for the babies today, I'll be home a lot more after my shift tomorrow morning so I will be feeding small meals multiple times a day. I have Sunday and Monday off, yay!

I can only see one fry at a time in the growout, it's so densly planted with floaters and mosses


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Do you think your Bettas would like a wardian box over there tank? Which would allow them to jump safely?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I just put glad wrap over my tank and when they hit that they bounce back off it and into the water. 

Blackworms aren't that big. Sort of like a narrower bloodworm. They also break apart fairly easy (this is how they propagate) so older fry and juveniles can swallow them. I usually start mine on blackworms once they are about an inch long. 

Just make sure you rinse them and store them correctly as otherwise they can go bad and they stink when that happens.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Do you think your Bettas would like a wardian box over there tank? Which would allow them to jump safely?


Interesting idea. I could see some cool semi-aquatic plants working with this type of setup. It's not practical to make it standard for the jumpers, but a couple of tanks like this would be neat! Something like this would be lovely:










LBF, are you familiar with tubifex worms? If so, how do the blackworms compare in size? I'm just trying to avoid too much nutritional redundancy


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I don't use tubifex, I heard they can be quite a dirty food source and I don't think you can get them here. Are you familiar with white worms? They sort of similar in size to those but a little thinner and easier for smaller fish to get down.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I think having the jumping room will be benefical. With a little ventalation open topped tank plants can be grown.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> I don't use tubifex, I heard they can be quite a dirty food source and I don't think you can get them here. Are you familiar with white worms? They sort of similar in size to those but a little thinner and easier for smaller fish to get down.


Yes I've had white worms before, they're also known as grindal worms yes? I didn't have any fry for months and months and I forgot to feed them >. < A new culture will be $25± including shipping if I can find one so I haven't replaced them yet. 

I have access to frozen tubifex and they're supposed to be guaranteed sterile and parasite-free. The guppies love them so far. I'll stay away from the live ones.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> I think having the jumping room will be benefical. With a little ventalation open topped tank plants can be grown.


It's too bad I don't know anyone who could make something suitable. I wonder if I could modify an existing glass or acrylic container.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Nah white worms and grindals are two separate things. Grindals are much smaller than white worms. I keep my white worms in moist peat moss mixed with some shell grit and they get fed bits of cat food every couple of days. 

http://www.worm-cultures.com/whiteworminformation.htm

Here's some info about white worms. I use them on my older juveniles as they appear to be quite tough for the smaller fish to break up and swallow. Really easy to culture and a nice source of fat in a varied diet. 

Grindals are great too. I definitely notice a difference in the rate of growth once my fry are big enough to get switched over predominately onto grindals and blackworms. My grindals are soil-less (I culture them on scourer pads) and they are in my opinion well worth the money spent.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well I got contacted by the lady I purchase my wild bettas through and all three of my pairs (burdigala, brownorum and uberis) made it through quarantine and are waiting to be shipped to me on the 2nd of January. 

So relieved. Now I just have to pray and hope they get through shipping okay and my wild betta collection will be complete. At least until I have money and can source some coccina, tussyae and livida again. The brownorum are wild-caught so I am going to try and drop the pH in their tank as low as I can. 

Ended up being just under $300 for the three pairs, shipping and a 500g of peat moss. Ouch. Sometimes I think an illicit drug habit would probably be cheaper haha. But like my mum was saying to the owners of the LFS. At least she knows where I am every night .... changing the water on my tanks!


----------



## ChoclateBetta

babystarz said:


> It's too bad I don't know anyone who could make something suitable. I wonder if I could modify an existing glass or acrylic container.


 You can there either called Ripariums or Pauldriums. http://ripariumsupply.com/?page_id=4


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Ripariums have no land element while paludariams do. I was thinking of setting up my macrostoma tank as a sort of riparium with a couple of plants (thinking peace lilies) in plastic shower caddies along the back. Thought maybe the overhanging foliage might make them feel more secure. 

However, it's not a very tall tank (only 35cm long) as I wanted long and wide when I got it made. So thinking maybe just have some branches poking out of the water and tying some mosses to these instead.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Aluminum plants are great too. I have them in my HOB.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2011/show143.html

Also here is a wild betta paludarium that looks pretty sweet. I would have had more leaf litter or peat moss in the water section though.

My mum hates aluminium plants so since it is her tank I couldn't have anything. Nothing variegated she said haha.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Do you think Bettas like the wild feel?


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2011/show143.html
> 
> Also here is a wild betta paludarium that looks pretty sweet. I would have had more leaf litter or peat moss in the water section though.
> 
> My mum hates aluminium plants so since it is her tank I couldn't have anything. Nothing variegated she said haha.


Wow, that is as close to their natural habitat setting as I've ever seen someone accomplish. A bit more leaf litter and it'd be perfect.



ChoclateBetta said:


> Do you think Bettas like the wild feel?


I think so. At least, they seem more comfortable the right amount of plant cover. Especially with floating plants/IAL they seem bolder and more likely to come right up to the front of the tank to peer at me.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Wow if Carters tank wasnt already built I would like to have one someday.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well since I put more leaves in my wild betta tanks I hardly ever see them as they spend all their time sneaking around in the leaf litter. When I do see them they are always fully coloured and looking very healthy. 

My fry also love having leaves added to their tank. If I put some in with my grow-outs there are big fights over who gets to sit under the choice ones. It's like as soon as you drop in some leaves they have to go and sit under them. 

My coccina complex bettas are also obsessed with anything that resembles a cave or tunnel. I just put a film canister floating around in my rutilans F1 tank and they are all up hanging around in it checking it out. They definitely enjoy investigating new things. 

I enjoy providing a comfortable home for my wild bettas. Having looked at a lot of what their habitat is like in the wild I can see why they are so snakey in shape having to always be slithering through leaf litter and the roots or stems of plants.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I think the ripariums really help fish that jump to get there food.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well my biggest rutilans offspring Cannibal Lecter has taken up prime position inside of the film canister. everyone else will just have to deal with it haha. 

Was scrolling through my PB account and found this shot of my rutilans female when she was young and tiny.










She wasn't looking too well last time I saw her so I have had to put her into a hospital tank and hope for the best. Thinking maybe the velvet knocked her immune system around a bit. Will be sad if there isn't a single female out of any of their offspring to carry on the line.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I like tanks where finding the fish is hard it has a more fun feeling. Plus when they come to see you it means more.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I feel a bit silly now. I went and purchased a pair of burdigala because I thought I only had males. Then I realised I had what appeared to be a burdigala female in with my palangkarensis and my palangkarensis female in with my burdigala males. 

I swapped them around but nothing really happened with the burdigala so I thought I must have been wrong again. Well I noticed my female completely coloured up this morning and so I chucked some oak leaves in for my male to hopefully build a nest in. 

He has taken the initiative and I believe they are spawning up in there or at least preparing to!! So hoping they are as I would love to get some fry from this species. 

Would have preferred they did this beforehand though so I could have at least ordered some coccina instead of another burdigala pair.


----------



## Goldie2nd

I have never seen wild Bettas


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Many stores don't stock them or they have to be specially ordered in. They are very much a niche market fish.


----------



## Goldie2nd

Humph ok well still neat you can get them are they different to take care of than domestic Bettas?


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I want my next Betta to be either siamese fighter or Imbellis.


----------



## Hallyx

Here you go, Goldie. Plenty more on Google. Well, pictures, anyway.

Betta Species


----------



## Goldie2nd

Thanks Hallix cus really I am now curious.


----------



## Goldie2nd

Wow I like the wild type with the white stripe at the bottom I sooo want one of those can those be kept in captivity?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I think you mean either Betta albimarginata or Betta channoides. They can be kept in captivity (all the wild species can) and are a fairly easy to care for and breed fish. I always recommend channoides and albimarginata to anyone new to wild species because of this.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Seriously Fish (website) has a lot of information on keeping and caring for the different species. Just type Betta into the search box and it should provide heaps of valuable reading material.


----------



## Goldie2nd

Ok thanks will do thanks you Little BettaFish


----------



## LittleBettaFish

No worries. I keep around 10 or so wild betta species and some other members on this thread have a few species of their own so if you ever need any help with anything we can help you out.


----------



## Goldie2nd

I like this kind of wild betta
Betta albimarginata 
Kottelat & Ng 1994


----------



## babystarz

I keep albimarginata, they're a great introduction to wild species. They are quite small and you can keep a pair in a 5-10 gallon planted tank. I feed mine a mix of .5mm New Life Spectrum small fish food and frozen and live foods.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Are Imbellis good?


----------



## Goldie2nd

Ok thanks babystarz I might look into this type of Betta at some point later on but man I like them a lot.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Are Imbellis good?


Yes they are also a good starting wild species. And inexpensive. My imbellis are pretty entertaining.


----------



## babystarz

Goldie2nd said:


> Ok thanks babystarz I might look into this type of Betta at some point later on but man I like them a lot.


Ok great! If you decide you'd like some in a few months let me know, I might have some offspring available from mine.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

How do they act on average?


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> How do they act on average?


I can only speak for mine, but all 4 come to see me when I'm in the room. They seem to like to goof around. They are very active and not shy.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Are they much like Domestic?


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Are they much like Domestic?


Yes they are the most similar to domestic splendens out of all the wild species.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Can they live in moderatly hard water?


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Can they live in moderatly hard water?


Yes, my water is slightly hard (most water in Minnesota has a lot of iron in it) and they do fine without any peat moss or manual pH lowering on my part.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Would IAL benefit them? What do I feed them?


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> Would IAL benefit them? What do I feed them?


Yes they like IAL but also do fine without it. Mine eat the .5 mm NLS and I supplement with the occasional frozen bbs or bloodworm. In most respects their care is the same as for Betta splendens.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

My Next Betta will be Imbellis. To a beginer are hybrids better or purebreds?


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> My Next Betta will be Imbellis. To a beginer are hybrids better or purebreds?


I would say go for a purebred imbellis. I think that it's easier to predict the needs and behavior of a purebred imbellis.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Now my Next Betta could be a while.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Watching my burdigala pair trying to wrap for the first few times, about half the tank length away from the actual bubblenest. They are just randomly doing it in the middle of the tank right in view of everything. 

I love watching those first few awkward wraps as they try to work out how things go haha.


----------



## babystarz

Oh also, if you want more than 1 get a group of siblings raised together. According to The Betta Handbook by Dr. Robert Goldstein; "B. imbellis raised separately and then placed together become fighters. Raised and kept together, and they remain peaceful and will even spawn in a group tank beneath floating plants or structures." 

I guess you have a while to plan this out.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I still want to research wild types.


----------



## babystarz

That's good, keep researching. There is a lot to know


----------



## Setsuna

ChoclateBetta said:


> I still want to research wild types.


Speaking of reseaching new types theres a new one in town. this wild type belongs to the splenden complex group 
i cant tell you guys just gonna have to wait and see ^^ 
im trying to get my hands on a pair already i will show you guys and explain about it theres 3 different names for it now no specific name yet thats why. How do i know? well lets just say i have my own resources


----------



## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> Speaking of reseaching new types theres a new one in town. this wild type belongs to the splenden complex group
> i cant tell you guys just gonna have to wait and see ^^
> im trying to get my hands on a pair already i will show you guys and explain about it theres 3 different names for it now no specific name yet thats why. How do i know? well lets just say i have my own resources


Awesome, and can't wait to see when you get a pair! 


I'm so bummed, my dog got too hot last night and climbed out of bed to sleep on the floor... and unplugged the airline to my bbs hatchery in the process  I just added another batch of eggs because I think the first batch went too long without aeration to hatch. Fortunately, I can tell the fry are gobbling up the frozen bbs and golden pearls because they have doubled in size and have bulging pink tummies. So the food fiasco isn't too terrible. I have new worm cultures en route to me too. I may even buy more frozen bbs for them since I can more easily time the feedings.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Someday I want to breed Brine Shrimp.


----------



## Mo

Chococlate. That's easy, just to and grab a 1/2 gallon tank and do it now


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I dont mean hatch eggs my mean get adults and get babies and then babies from those babies.


----------



## Mo

Also. Are you talking about the mahachai?

I know, lol. I mean you hatch them, then raise em to adults


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I know there is a B. siamorientalis that was recently described as there was an article on it in Seriously Fish. This is out of the splendens complex so could be that.

Got nothing out of my burdigala spawning yesterday but I believe the male is up in the film canister I put in there so maybe they spawned while I was out this morning or he is working on a nest in there.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Mo said:


> Also. Are you talking about the mahachai?
> 
> I know, lol. I mean you hatch them, then raise em to adults


 I want to breed the Adult Brineshrimp.


----------



## Mo

I understand that, once they are adults, then let them breed. It's really easy, clean water + food and they'll breed. Not rocket science, lol


----------



## babystarz

Video of the babies:
http://youtu.be/LeSq-KNJwqA

Well, two of them anyway. The others are still too shy to come see me. My tablet takes nice video, I wish I had a stand for it though so my shakiness wouldn't affect things so much (being a barista means I'm constantly twitchy from all the coffee I drink lmao). I will be filming videos of all my wild species tomorrow for you all who are interested in seeing them. I think videos are the best way to learn about their behavior


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Betta fry are so cute. The best stage is when they look like little miniatures of their adult selves. Look forward to seeing your other videos. 

I have found I get too attached to my wild betta fry. I have all these fry growing out and really no intention of selling any but the unimaculata haha. I think my fish room is eventually just going to be full of my homebred wild species.


----------



## babystarz

I am really attached to these guys already too. Especially because even at this young age, they have picked out their favorite spots in the tank and stick around there, meaning I can tell individuals apart by their location (if not their appearance lol). The one who likes to chill by the end of the cholla wood log in front and ham it up for the camera I have been calling Sparky.

I have another coincidental anecdote too! I had a temporary space crunch and moved the 4 imbellis in with the 2 smaragdina just for a few days and some super interesting behavior changes have happened! Not only is Mrs. Smaragdina showing her face now, she's basically schooling with the imbellis and coming right up to the front of the tank to see me! Turns out she wasn't afraid of me so much as Mr. Smaragdina. Now that there are four other fish for him to bother, she isn't feeling quite as vulnerable. Very interesting. Note: the imbellis are still too young to breed, this is the only reason I could confidently mix the species in one tank. Otherwise I wouldn't risk it due to the possible hybrids resulting.

Mr. Smaragdina is having the time of his life with these other fish to pester. He swims up to them and starts poking at them lol. He doesn't attack or flare really, just bugs them like a clueless stalker. No wonder Mrs. Smaragdina hid all the time, I'd be annoyed by the guy too ROFL! Poor guy needs some babies to care for or something.

My bbs from the ill-fated batch that didn't get aerated actually did have a surprisingly decent hatch rate, enough to feed 20 fry until the next batch anyway! I'm not sure at what point I should drain the bbs tank and clean the hatchery out. The instructions say every hatch but I think I can get away with 2-3 hatches and then clean so there's a more consistent food supply. Also just got my new micro worm culture in the mail.


----------



## babystarz

More cool news. I emailed Cody about the ocellata fry to thank him for the easy-to-breed fish. He has 100+ unimaculata fry and he's going to send me 5 (he needs more room) in exchange for the same from my patoti pair when they get around to spawning  I told him that between us we're going to have quite the unimaculata complex factory going lol.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Unimaculata are my favourite of that whole complex. In a way I am sort of glad my female unimaculata died. Don't think I could cope with having to grow-out and get rid of 100 odd unimaculata fry. The 16 I have is more than enough.

I wish I knew what my burdigala pair were doing. Yesterday they were up in the film canister together so I thought they were perhaps spawning. Now my male is swimming around the entire tank fully coloured up (this species when coloured up is IMO the most spectacular looking wild betta species) and flaring at my finger because I dared put it up to the glass. 

I got him all worked up yesterday because I put a mirror up against the glass hehe. However, I wish he would stop showing off and go back to spawning. They were actually embracing yesterday but now he is just chasing her around. Turd.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

ARGH!!! Since my burdigala male has just been swimming around I thought they must not have spawned. Turns out I was wrong as I just did my water change and all these eggs came out of the film canister. 

Luckily he seems to be a good daddy and is going out to collect the eggs that have floated out. No wonder he was being aggro this morning. He practically leapt out from under the leaf litter when he saw me putting the film canister back in.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I really like Betta Fusca.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> ARGH!!! Since my burdigala male has just been swimming around I thought they must not have spawned. Turns out I was wrong as I just did my water change and all these eggs came out of the film canister.
> 
> Luckily he seems to be a good daddy and is going out to collect the eggs that have floated out. No wonder he was being aggro this morning. He practically leapt out from under the leaf litter when he saw me putting the film canister back in.


Oh no that sucks, sorry LBF! At least it sounds like most of the eggs are ok.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

For a first-time dad he has been a star. He went and picked up all the eggs that had dropped to the bottom and that had floated away and I think put them back into the film canister. Now he is just spending most of his time sitting under the film canister and making sure no eggs are falling out. 

Pretty good considering he was wild-caught, this is his first time spawning and I removed the whole nest from the tank. 

Now hoping my uberis and brownorum pairs arrive safe and well on Thursday and I can get some spawning happening with them. Bit nervous as the brownorum are wild-caught and sometimes they can get stress induced velvet so have to have everything perfect.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Welp I got off my butt and separated my palangkarensis pairs into two different tanks. Was going to put one pair in my 3ft outside tank but even though the day temperatures have been from 25-40 degrees Celsius at night it has been getting down to like 15 degrees. Water was only 17 this morning when I tested it, so think it might be just a little cold for my bettas. 

Does anyone else have a problem with their wild bettas glass surfing when they get put into a new tank? All mine do it and I hate watching them just go back and forth all day long. My rutilans were doing it the other day and one of my palangkarensis females is doing it now. 

I set up the tanks for my new wilds who should be arriving (fingers crossed) tomorrow. 

My old rutilans pair who looked really sick recently are looking like they are going to possibly spawn quite soon and my burdigala male is still guarding his nest although I can't see any tails in there. He has an odd way of guarding the nest in that when he is not in the film canister he is right down in the leaf litter flaring and carrying on.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Does anyone else have a problem with their wild bettas glass surfing when they get put into a new tank? All mine do it and I hate watching them just go back and forth all day long. My rutilans were doing it the other day and one of my palangkarensis females is doing it now.


Yes this happens with my more sensitive fish. One of my albimarginata females will look depressed for days when moved, even to a better tank. I just split my albimarginata community tank into two separate pair tanks to see if that might entice them to spawning. My smaller male Nutmeg is in full dress so it might have worked. Fortunately he's with the less finicky female too. I have a local fish dealer interested in any babies from the albimarginata too so easy homing will be nice. 

I finally captured that ocellata fry in the parent tank, I'm pretty sure it was the last one. It's half the size of the babies I moved right away and has some fattening up to do. I *think* that was the last fry I needed to move.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Is Java Moss used in breeding?


----------



## Setsuna

ChoclateBetta said:


> Is Java Moss used in breeding?


Its used to start a culture of infosoria fo the frys


----------



## ChoclateBetta

That makes sense. Putting it in the tank would help too.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> That makes sense. Putting it in the tank would help too.


Yes my fry tank is also 75 percent mosses. The fry feel safe and secure hiding in it.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

How do they act?


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> How do they act?


Usually they just stare at me. They are starting to learn that the pipette = food so they get excited when they see it and come out of their hiding spots, but if they get too close to the water flow from the pipette they freak out and zip away faster than you could imagine. I only ever see 2-3 at a time usually, but a few are getting big enough that I can usually spot them.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

It's funny when all of a sudden it's like a light bulb goes off in their heads and they start to associate you with food. My older rutilans (around 1/2 an inch) are just starting to learn a tap on the glass means that food is coming.

My unimaculata fry were mauling my hand yesterday when I put it in as I had forgotten to feed them the day before haha. 

I think my burdigala male has either eaten a majority of the eggs or they are infertile/bad. He is still guarding it, but I can't see any tails or any sign of fry. He's been such a dedicated dad I hope he at least gets a couple of fry to raise.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yay all three of my pairs arrived alive and well. I swear the lady who imports them in treats her fish so well. As soon as my new burdigala pair went into their tank they barred up and starting flaring and chasing each other around. 

My uberis pair as so cute and tiny. The male has claimed the hollow log in there as his own. It has seen many rutilans fry in its time so hopefully it sees some uberis as well. 

Brownorum are just having a slow explore around their tank. They are wild-caught so a little more reserved than the others.

Means I now have seven species from the coccina complex. Just want to get some coccina to finish up my collection.


----------



## babystarz

Hooray! I'm excited to see your new fish. My shipped pair from Borneo was extremely healthy and active right away too even after a week in a box. Wilds handle it like pros. Domestic Splendens on the other hand, blegh. Never getting another shipped again. Not even from someone here in the USA. 

You know how I said I caught the last ocellata fry? Yeah no. I netted *six* more tonight. I am going to stop pretending I know what's going on. The fry tank total is up to around 30. It's now obvious to me the adults didn't eat a single fry and they were never in any danger. I have heard of this with ocellata pairs but I didn't think it applied to a community tank. I was wrong, they know not to touch a single scale on a baby's head. I think I'm going to put a guppy fry in with them to see if this applies to fry of other species or if they can somehow identify ocellata fry. 

The fry that were still in the parent tank are painfully tiny, so it was right to move them because they obviously weren't getting enough food even though I was adding bbs to their tank. They're now feasting on micro worms. I am going to spend most of my free time hovering over the parent tank with a fry net in hand to get any other babies moved. I'm worried if I don't they will starve soon.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah that was how my unimaculata were. I actually saw the mother eating and then spitting out a fry. I think she must have realised it wasn't food. The ones I pulled out of my tank were absolutely tiny. Now I can't tell who is who. They grow pretty fast so hopefully yours do well. 

Nothing better than knowing your fish are happy and comfortable enough that they spawn. Especially with the wild-caught ones. 

In other news I HAVE BURDIGALA TAILS! Peeked in with my torch just before and my male has a good number of fry up in the film canister with him. So happy that all his hard work has paid off. Now I just need to find room for yet another grow-out.


----------



## babystarz

Woohoo what a great day for you  So glad you've got some little burdigala! 

I am wondering what the water change schedule for my fry tank should be. It has ~7 gallons of water in a 10 gallon tank. It's a heavily planted NPT with MTS and ramshorns. I was previously doing a weekly 25 percent change.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

When my fry were in with their parents they were getting however many water changes their parents get, which for me, is around 25% every second day. 

However, in my fry tanks I do 50% water changes every second day with a very thorough siphoning of the bottoms. 

I think like splendens, the growth hormone is still produced by wild betta fry, so you would want to be doing fairly frequent water changes to dilute it. 

I am lucky in that are tap water here is exceptionally soft and good quality, so it doesn't bother my fish to be doing so many water changes. Could be different if your tap water is not so good.


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## babystarz

Okay, I will probably go for 50 percent changes every 3 days. I think that'll be a good balance between the plants' needs and the babies' needs.

My tap water is hard, but with very helpful minerals for the plants. Mostly iron.


----------



## Chili Padi

babystarz said:


> Due to popular demand, I am creating a Wild Species thread so as not to keep clogging up Setsuna's thread in the Breeding forum
> 
> Who owns or has an interest in wild species? Do you have pics? Baby wild types for sale to others? Looking for breeding stock? Have questions about care? Are you simply looking for more information on these many species?
> 
> *Resources*
> 
> Link to IBC Species Management Program page and species index:
> http://www.ibcbettas.org/smp/species/index.html
> 
> Seriously Fish species profiles (scroll down to the bottom of the page I've linked to see a full list of current species profiles for wild bettas):http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/betta-imbellis/
> 
> 
> *FAQ*
> 
> *Q: Do wild bettas need the same care as betta splendens?*
> *A:* Not necessarily. Many wild betta species prefer slightly cooler temperatures compared to bettas. Actual wild-caught pairs are the hardest to care for, and it's not necessarily ethical to buy them, seeing as over 56 species are identified by the IBC as in need of preservation. Wild bettas who were born and raised in hobbyist aquariums tend to be much easier to care for. Please be SURE to thoroughly research the species you are interested in before you acquire a pair.
> 
> *Q: Do male wild bettas need to be separated from other fish like betta splendens?*
> *A:* Probably not. Many, if not most, wild betta species can be kept in pairs or communities. The general recommendation for most species is a heavily planted 10 gallon tank for a pair and a 30 gallon tank for a community, but this is not a hard and fast rule and breeders have successfully raised fry in smaller settings.
> 
> *Q: Can wild betta species interbreed with betta splendens?*
> *A:* Some can. That is actually how metallic copper genes were introduced to betta splendens. However, because of the vast global spread of betta splendens and the shrinking natural habitat of many wild betta species, interbreeding is not seen as a responsible thing to do. There may come a day soon when the only populations of wild species exist in the hands of aquarists, and maintaining a pure gene pool is needed right now to boost numbers.
> 
> *Q: Do wild betta species breed the same way as betta splendens?*
> *A:* Some of the more closely related species like betta imbellis are bubble nesters just like betta splendens, although the parents don't need to be separate from their fry. Other species are mouthbrooders (the males carry the fertilized eggs in their mouths until the fry hatch).
> 
> *Q: Aren't wild bettas dull and uninteresting?*
> *A:* Not at all! Of course the aesthetic in wild betta species is their natural beauty, which is different from what many betta keepers may be used to. Betta splendens are the yin (artificially selected for exaggerated traits and bright colors) to the wild betta species yang (naturally evolved beauty). This isn't to say there are only muddy colors going on here. This is just a sampling of different species:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: IBC species index
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: IBC species index
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: IBC species index
> 
> 
> http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=2802
> 
> The link above is a rare species of betta from my country Brunei which was previously thought to be extinct. It is now considered a vulnerable species and has been declared by the Sultan to be illegal in possession. Check out the link for more information and photos about this species.


----------



## Setsuna

i can get a pair macrostoma for a very cheap price like 15USD from a friend of mine. i see these sell for a massive price that i dont want to pay for ^^ also these are very water sensitive i was told they die easy if not cared for right i guess you can say this fish requires alot of things


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I think enough were smuggled out (and they are pretty easy to breed) that captive breeding programs were able to be set up, plus I don't think Brunei is the only place they are found in. This is a quote according to an individual who is quite familiar with wild bettas and is a member of judge of the Australian branch of the IBC. 



> There are many areas in Kalimantan that have wild populations of Macrostoma.





> The large adults being exported at present are wild caught, from Kalimantan, Indonesia. They tend to be smaller, and darker in the base colour than the Brunei type.


I am getting a pair myself next week that were brought in from our main wholesaler in Australia.


----------



## babystarz

Yep there are plenty of breeding lines in the aquarium trade that I don't think anyone is tempted to procure wild-caught fish illegally. They are usually the most expensive species though.


----------



## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> i can get a pair macrostoma for a very cheap price like 15USD from a friend of mine. i see these sell for a massive price that i dont want to pay for ^^ also these are very water sensitive i was told they die easy if not cared for right i guess you can say this fish requires alot of things


They are also very difficult for a lot of people to get to spawn unless they have the right water conditions, and they're jumpers. Definitely for the advanced fish and wild betta keeper only.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

The market here in Victoria seems flooded with macrostoma at the moment. A few people keep and breed them and since they are prolific when conditions are right a lot of people have fry or juveniles growing out. 

I don't really know if I classify any of the wild betta species as advanced. As long as you do your research and have the conditions right for your species they are pretty easy to care for. I mean I started off with the coccina complex which is supposedly the most difficult care wise and my original pair are still going strong 2 years on. I have learned some valuable lessons on the importance of pH and water quality but apart from that I haven't run into too huge a road blocks. 

Probably velvet is really the only thing that can cause problems with the species I like.


----------



## PitGurl

4 week old Guitar fry...


----------



## ChoclateBetta

Kind of looks like a Goby.


----------



## babystarz

Those are good points, LBF. I guess I've just heard so many stories about macrostoma not spawning or jumping that I haven't even wanted to think about getting any  They're beautiful fish but I don't know I'd want to deal with them until I've had wilds for a good while.

Moved 2 more fry today, and spotted another 2. The tinies that have already been moved are eating well and have fat little tummies. I hope they will soon catch up to their siblings in growth. The biggest fry are growing so much every day, I'm a proud fish mom. 

I finally got a chance to buy my two new tanks on sale. I have a double stand coming for two 20 gallon Long tanks. I already have everything else I need for them. I saw a 33 gallon Long tank and I was super tempted but I have nowhere to put it.

Pitgirl your fry looks lovely, how big are they at that age?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

This is why I stick with small species. A 25L tank is about all they need for a pair. My rack is 150cm long so I can fit like 5/6 tanks per shelf. 

I will let you know how easy/hard macrostoma are when I get mine. I just plan on setting up a barebottom tank with a handful of IAL, floating plants and some mangrove driftwood. Need to get glass cut up to divide my ideii female from my unimaculata male. He had to be separated out into a breeders' net after she did her best Jaws impersonation on him. Think at least some of my unimaculata fry are female so he can have himself a companion hopefully.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

This is my new brownorum male 'hiding' in the leaf litter. I think something is giving him away just a little.





































Then my male and female burdigala are showing off all afternoon to each other and this was the best photo I could snap after they see me and my big camera coming (this is the female). 










Definitely don't show as much blue/green iridescence as my wild-caught pair.


----------



## Chili Padi

LittleBettaFish said:


> Yeah I think enough were smuggled out (and they are pretty easy to breed) that captive breeding programs were able to be set up, plus I don't think Brunei is the only place they are found in. This is a quote according to an individual who is quite familiar with wild bettas and is a member of judge of the Australian branch of the IBC.
> 
> "There are many areas in Kalimantan that have wild populations of Macrostoma."
> 
> "The large adults being exported at present are wild caught, from Kalimantan, Indonesia. They tend to be smaller, and darker in the base colour than the Brunei type."
> 
> I am getting a pair myself next week that were brought in from our main wholesaler in Australia.


The Macrostoma species are only found on Borneo Island where Brunei and Kalimantan is. Ones found in Kalimantan are not illegal just the ones in Brunei. Yes the ones in Brunei are unique in their colors and size as they can grow up to 11cm compared to their neighboring country Macrostoma. I know few lakes and steams where im from where these Macrostoma are found, but...the area is protected by the forestry dept :|

Once your pair has arrived please share some pics with us  i'd love to see them.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

They are truly beautiful fish. Especially the males when they are sparring and displaying. Mine appear to be quite young, but hopefully they will fatten up and grow once they arrive here. 

Will definitely be taking photos of them to share as at least they are big enough for my camera to focus on unlike most of my wilds haha.


----------



## Leon

Wow. I just read this thread and man do your stories and the beautiful fish you have make me want to have a wild species someday in the far future.
Out of curiosity, have any of you considered building or know of someone who has made an aquarium with living sphagnum moss, a sort of bog aquarium? I've seen several setups that used what I assumed was hardware store bought, and presumably dead, peat moss as a substrate for the bog plants they wanted to grow. But this wouldn't really function as a bog does in nature. It was a neat idea to me because it would mimic the natural habitat and might help maintain the appropriate pH since the plant itself acidifies the water. Thoughts?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Generally you just use sphagnum peat moss to lower the pH and soften the water in wild betta set-ups. In the photo of my burdigala female above, the brown substrate she is laying on is peat moss that I soak and then add to the bottom of each of my wild betta aquariums. If you have very soft water to begin with, peat moss coupled with IAL can bring the pH down below 6. 

The furry looking strands in the same picture, is *dried* sphagnum moss. I don't actually know if it does anything to the water chemistry, I just added it because I liked how it looked and it added more bulk to my leaf litters. 

I've never actually used live moss. Are you thinking of like a paludarium type set-up where there are separate land and water sections, or would the living sphagnum moss be in the water itself?


----------



## babystarz

I've only used dry sphagnum peat moss mixed with dirt as substrate to lower pH/bind minerals. Living peat sounds like a fantastic experiment. I'd see if anyone at plantedtank.net has experience with trying this.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Excellent. It looks like my palangkarensis pair may finally be spawning, or about to spawn. Male finally may have grown some balls after all. I think if one pair spawns I may sell the other pair as I don't need two separate tanks taking up space. 

They are a superb little fish. Wish I knew a bit more about what they actually are and where they come from.


----------



## ChoclateBetta

I wonder if Carter will like Spagnum moss? I use IAL.


----------



## babystarz

ChoclateBetta said:


> I wonder if Carter will like Spagnum moss? I use IAL.


I am not sure, since splendens do fine in a wide variety of pH levels. 

I don't know WHAT has gotten into my patoti male but he's been picking on the female. She has several nips in her tail  if this does not stop promptly I will remove the male for a time out and reintroduce them after a week or two. They are in a heavily planted tank so at least she can hide.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Could it be that they are going to spawn soon? My male wilds are quite hard on the females before they spawn. Usually the females get chased every which way around the tank and may or may not end up with a few nipped fins in the process. 

I think my burdigala fry have left the nest and gone off into the leaf litter. I knew I should have gotten them out earlier so I have to wait and see whether they are still kicking around or have been in fact, eaten. Neither mum nor dad's bellies were big so I am hoping that they have just become free-swimming. 

My other burdigala pair have gone crazy since I put the film canister in their tank. They've both been up to investigate it and are now chasing each other around so hopefully they might spawn. Then the film canister will be making its journey into my brownorum tank haha. Wish I had more of them but they are hard to find nowadays.


----------



## Leon

LittleBettaFish said:


> I've never actually used live moss. Are you thinking of like a paludarium type set-up where there are separate land and water sections, or would the living sphagnum moss be in the water itself?


I'd be interested to try a conjoined section. I've seen several people do varying degrees of separation including one that had live sphagnum moss and seemed to be unseparated. Apparently a lot of peopel use sphagnum when growing carnivorous plants. Sphagnum in the wild is part living and part "dead". Since its a moss the dead parts can sometimes grow back into living parts. In a bog, only the uppermost layer is alive, and it looks really pretty IMO. I'm not certain if its the live moss or the dead moss that has the most influence on the pH, I think that its the dead moss, so the living moss really wouldn't be a benefit other than acting like a little section of a real marsh or bog. Maybe if I ever do wilds I'll give it a shot ;-)


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Got some updated videos of my newly changed around top shelf of my fish rack, as well as of my persephone and unimaculata juvies. They are all growing out nicely. Haven't seen any sign of my burdigala fry so I am hoping they have just gone down into the leaf litter and not been eaten by their parents. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKeLXanqa0o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hYwQrTTOis

Got four or five more film canisters my second cousin's wife has saved up for me so going to chuck them in all my wild pair tanks and see if I can't get some spawning happening. 

Was also very relieved to see my two year old rutilans pair has made a full recovery. The female presented with all these fuzzy patches down her body and looked very clamped and ill and today they were out staring at the uberis next door looking pretty darn healthy. I have told them that they can officially retire from breeding as I have enough of their offspring now.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha sometimes I feel like I spam this thread but since I have nearly a dozen wild species I figure I am probably going to be the one that posts the most.

Well as I mentioned in my previous post my betta rutilans pair that are around two years old have gotten better. Since I moved them into a new tank one or two weeks ago now, they were quite shy and for the most part I was essentially feeding an empty tank. That has all changed as now they are out all the time having little spars with the fish in the tanks either side. 

Now they are both fully coloured up and flaring at each other going in and out of their log. Usually when they act like this is before they spawn so looks like I may have more fry on the way soon. 

It just amazes me how tough these little fish are. Not only are they are older than what is considered the norm for spawning by most members here, but they also nearly died only a few months ago. It seems to me that there is definitely another level of hardiness that wild bettas have over the ornamental form of splendens.

I mean my splendens still managed to drop dead or injure themselves in safe, cycled tanks. Yet my wilds are always getting pried off the carpet with a net whenever they decide they want to test the laws of physics, and without any treatment or special care at all they manage to heal up. 

That's what makes me so leery about getting back into splendens (was thinking about starting up another sorority). I just worry I am going to invest all this time and love into fish who are just going to up and die on me. At least I have decided no more imports as the cost is prohibitive and the end result is usually the same.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Where did everyone and their wild bettas go? 

Anyway, got my uberis pair to successfully spawn! Male has around a dozen, possibly more, eggs stuck to the top of his hollow log. So lazy he didn't even bother with a nest. 

I think everyone has gotten excited because I added some hydrilla, duckweed and branchy wood to their tanks to make them feel more comfortable. I think they look rather awesome myself. 










The light is only up there until I can purchase some cheap T8s or something to run over my tanks. 

Then I tried to take a photo of my burdigala male and he decided to sit in an awkward spot so not only did it get the water stain I can't get rid of, but also it made his head out of focus. 



























His female looks adorable in this one though


----------



## babystarz

Your burdigala male is gorgeous LBF! And I love the new look of your tanks. I think the branches are great and a few plants are always a good idea. I am going to have to start holding raffles for my own clippings soon, I throw so much away! Especially duckweed.

Sorry I haven't been around, had the flu and got dehydrated enough for a brief hospitalization. I'm fine now, this flu season is just awful in the US though. Boston has already declared a health emergency over it and hospitals around the country are having to turn people away.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Good to hear you are okay now Babystarz. Was wondering where you had gone. 

I have so much duckweed as well. It completely covers the surface of a 3ft tank I have outside. No one ever wants it so I am just going to have to chuck it out. 

I'm not sure if my uberis male has eaten his eggs or not. He had them in the log. Then for some inexplicable reason moved them out right to the front in a nest. Now they are gone and he is at the back of the tank with no nest in site. Hopefully he has either hidden them away or has them in his mouth. 

The colours on the burdigala males is amazing. Too bad he is the worst fish to photograph.


----------



## Setsuna

_*Imbellis frys *_


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Is that a mahachai female Setsuna? I am not really familiar with that complex so just guessing.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Is that a mahachai female Setsuna? I am not really familiar with that complex so just guessing.


the pictures that i posted up is one of my imbellis frys


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Ah it's hard for me to tell. But that fry is looking really good. Love the iridescence the wild bettas get. 

Had much luck with sexing any, or are they still too small?


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Ah it's hard for me to tell. But that fry is looking really good. Love the iridescence the wild bettas get.
> 
> Had much luck with sexing any, or are they still too small?


still small and hard to sex cause not all of them hasnt shown colors yet


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah that's always the annoying bit. Waiting for your fry to grow out so you can tell who is what. 

Although with that in mind, there are some of my fish that are between 12-20 months old and I still have no clue what they are haha.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Yeah that's always the annoying bit. Waiting for your fry to grow out so you can tell who is what.
> 
> Although with that in mind, there are some of my fish that are between 12-20 months old and I still have no clue what they are haha.


hahaha that must suck lol


----------



## efg321

Wow best wild thread I've found. Returning to hobby have some wild project tanks in mind. Hope you dont mind me barging in. Sure I will have a bunch of questions and hints I can get from y'all....Happy New Year (belated)


----------



## Setsuna

_*My Wild Imbellis male*_


----------



## babystarz

efg321 said:


> Wow best wild thread I've found. Returning to hobby have some wild project tanks in mind. Hope you dont mind me barging in. Sure I will have a bunch of questions and hints I can get from y'all....Happy New Year (belated)


We don't mind at all, most of us love a chance to share what we've learned so ask away :-D


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> Good to hear you are okay now Babystarz. Was wondering where you had gone.


That was sweet of you  I tend to really get my butt kicked by the flu because it sets off my stomach condition!



LittleBettaFish said:


> I'm not sure if my uberis male has eaten his eggs or not. He had them in the log. Then for some inexplicable reason moved them out right to the front in a nest. Now they are gone and he is at the back of the tank with no nest in site. Hopefully he has either hidden them away or has them in his mouth.


Ahhh I don't envy having to deal with a complex that can switch between mouth brooding and bubble nesting :shock: Figuring out if they're holding eggs in the first week is tricky.


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## dramaqueen

Pretty cool pics.


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## LittleBettaFish

Well I think he ate his eggs. Naughty boy. Either that or they are especially well hidden somewhere. 

I also believe my crazy burdigala pair may be spawning soon. The male has been in the film canister working on a nest all afternoon and the female has been swimming around near it. Can't believe how much they tore each other up. My poor male has lost all his beautiful anal fin (not the one in the photo).

I have come to the conclusion that all my persephone fry may be female. They look identical to the adult female in there. Most are still fairly small but none of them have their dad's colouration and I was so hoping to get a male to use for another spawning. 

Only a couple of unimaculata fry are also showing male colouration around their cheeks and heads. The rest look very bland. Which is alright since I wanted a female to pair up with my male.

Still deciding when we go to the fish shop to pick up my macrostoma whether to 'rescue' the very pathetic looking pair of Betta strohi that were in last time I checked. They were only young and quite clamped and stressed and I do have a free tank and heater.... heh heh.


----------



## babystarz

Ooh I hope you get the strohi, I would like to see more on that species. I think my betta handbook just has a picture of a dead one :S

I am lucking out with the ocellata fry. They are only 3 weeks old but some of the males are already showing a little patch of iridescence behind the cheek, which is not present in females. I think sexing the larger males will be easy. The small males/large females might give me a bit more trouble though.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have owned strohi before. They are beautiful fish (sort of like a bigger coccina complex betta) but could be quite aggressive towards each other. When my male was brooding he would chase the female around quite a bit and pre-spawning their courtship as pretty rough.

This was my original pair in the seller's tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEicMaBotYg

This pair reminds me so much of the strohi juvies I sold to Aus that it makes me sad to see them looking poorly. I love the actual store they are at and the owner is really great to talk to and such, but he has slacked off on the care of his bettas lately and I think my mum is going to give him a lecture soon. So far she has managed to restrain herself but bettas are one of her favourite fish so she hates seeing them treated badly in stores. 

I put one of my palangkarensis pairs outside in my 3ft NPT. The whole surface is covered in duckweed so I hope that this will dissuade them from jumping. The tank is also only a 1/4 full and was full of mosquito larvae (and a dragonfly nymph eek) and as soon as they went in the female was happily hunting. I am hoping that either they or the ones in the inside tank spawn soon as they always get me all excited and then nothing happens. 

At least it is easier to sex the bigger species once they start developing their adult colour. I just want one female to keep and a couple of pairs to sell with the others. 

Are you going to keep any of your ocellata fry or just sell them off?


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## efg321

babystarz said:


> We don't mind at all, most of us love a chance to share what we've learned so ask away :-D


Substrate? or not in breeders tanks... I have noticed boiled peat,sand,gravel,leaf litter etc(oak, banana, IAL) in some. 

Have 7 tanks (2, 10x2, 15, 20,29, and 75) that have been DRY FOR 10 YRS OH MY! I know a sin right? 

Actually thinking Smaragdina, and or Imbellis. Then work into some mouthbrooders unimac, albies., and then and then and then!!!!. but a baby step is fine to start. Ed efg321


----------



## babystarz

efg321 said:


> Substrate? or not in breeders tanks... I have noticed boiled peat,sand,gravel,leaf litter etc(oak, banana, IAL) in some.
> 
> Have 7 tanks (2, 10x2, 15, 20,29, and 75) that have been DRY FOR 10 YRS OH MY! I know a sin right?
> 
> Actually thinking Smaragdina, and or Imbellis. Then work into some mouthbrooders unimac, albies., and then and then and then!!!!. but a baby step is fine to start. Ed efg321


Some people prefer not to use substrate because water changes are a bit easier, but I do use dirt capped with sand in all my tanks to maintain as natural an environment as possible. It's up to you, and your tap water's parameters. IAL and peat are only necessary if you have a high pH or you're keeping a species that prefers a very low pH. 

All those tanks, you're going to have so much fun planning them! Can't wait to see what you do with them :lol: Imbellis are a good introduction to wild species, since you won't need to get anything special for them and they're similar to splendens. Most mouthbrooders are pretty easy to keep too.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> This was my original pair in the seller's tank.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEicMaBotYg
> 
> This pair reminds me so much of the strohi juvies I sold to Aus that it makes me sad to see them looking poorly. I love the actual store they are at and the owner is really great to talk to and such, but he has slacked off on the care of his bettas lately and I think my mum is going to give him a lecture soon. So far she has managed to restrain herself but bettas are one of her favourite fish so she hates seeing them treated badly in stores.


Oh wow they're bigger than I was expecting! Beautiful though! That's too bad about the store owner. Do you think he's just overextended or something? I'd hope the lax care is temporary.



LittleBettaFish said:


> I put one of my palangkarensis pairs outside in my 3ft NPT. The whole surface is covered in duckweed so I hope that this will dissuade them from jumping. The tank is also only a 1/4 full and was full of mosquito larvae (and a dragonfly nymph eek) and as soon as they went in the female was happily hunting. I am hoping that either they or the ones in the inside tank spawn soon as they always get me all excited and then nothing happens.


That is so cool! I wish I could have outdoor tanks, but even in the summer here hot days can be paired with cold nights. And it sometimes hails in July just to keep us on our toes. Also I live in a big city and I'm sure some idiot would walk up to the house and bother my fish.



LittleBettaFish said:


> Are you going to keep any of your ocellata fry or just sell them off?


I'll try to sell most of them because I'll need the space for more babies, and one of the reasons I'm breeding is to widen the gene pool so I want their genes to be sent all over... but I probably will keep one or two of the prettiest ones since this is my first wild spawn. It's special  Also the ocellata are some of my favorites aside from the whole constantly trying to eat my fingers thing. It always makes me jump and yell swear words, even if it doesn't hurt


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha my unimaculata are the worst. They have recently discovered the astonishing ability to jump. So now all I hear is pat pat pat as they jump up and smack their heads against the glad wrap. I think it was because once I accidentally got some pellets stuck to the plastic and a couple jumped up to get them down.

It has been cold at night here too but on one of the coldest nights the tank was only down to around 17 degrees so it wasn't ridiculously cold as my wild species can be kept from low to mid twenties. 

Strohi are so nice. I actually really regret selling my pair on. Betta foerschi are also very similar in type and personality.


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## Setsuna

My first imbellis was this guy


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## babystarz

Speaking of jumping, my male patoti got a little too excited about the bloodworm I was offering him last night and jumped out of his tank. He flopped all the way behind the shelf where I couldn't reach him, then flopped around it and back over to me where I was able to capture him in a sheet and deposit him in his tank, where he promptly resumed begging for food. Thankfully I anticipated this happening and the tank is only an inch off the ground, so he was a bit fuzzy but no worse for the wear.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I think that complex has the worst jumpers in it. When I did water changes on my unimaculata tank I had to snap the lid down as fast as I took it off because the female would jump out at me otherwise. 

Generally they bounce back pretty well from jumping out as you can see. I have fish fall a couple of metres to the ground and they are always fine. I hate picking up the bigger guys with bare hands though. I don't like when they start flopping around.

Got a new 900mm shelf for my macrostoma and unimaculata/ideii tanks. Going to set-up the macrostoma tank this morning and pick them up this afternoon. Luckily I am right near the hose so I will not have to cart 100L of water down there in buckets. Also got some perspex that my dad is going to cut up today so I can divide my ideii tank and give Mr unimaculata some space to move around. 

Didn't realise it was going to be so cold over these two days. It was freezing last night and then today is only going to be 22 degrees. Poor palangkarensis. I saw the male last night though and he was looking surprisingly good. Best colour I have seen on him. Need to re-do that whole tank and remove the stupid tadpoles that are in there currently.


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## LittleBettaFish

Persephone juveniles



























Unimaculata fry/juveniles


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## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Persephone juveniles
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> Unimaculata fry/juveniles


I think they are ready to sell


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## LittleBettaFish

The persephone are all staying with me. Gonna put them in a 3fter tank. Think they are all female. Although a male would be nice. Some are still quite small. 

The unimaculata are only an inch long. I think the photos make them look a lot bigger than they are. I will be keeping hopefully a female from them and selling the rest. 

Unfortunately came home to find two unimaculata fry dead on my shelf. Don't know how they got out through the glad wrap. So sad. I haven't told my mum as they are 'her' babies. Looks like one was my really nicely coloured up male too!

Also got my macs home into their new tank and 'rescued' a sick and sad rutilans for $15 while I was there too. Looks like it had ich so keeping it well quarantined from the rest of my fish. Poor thing scoffed down all the live blackworms I put in for it. I have such a soft spot for rutilans.


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## LittleBettaFish

Doing a happy dance right now. Have a nest full of eggs from my aggro new burdigala pair and my palangkarensis inside pair who I have been waiting on for ages to spawn have a whole heap of eggs in their nest and are still going at it!

It's so cold outside and one pair of my palangkarensis are outside. The tank water feels quite chilly and I couldn't see them in there. Wasn't until I totally tore the tank apart that I saw them looking no worse for wear. Since it's going to be warm up over the next few days I will leave them in there. Think I might sell them now my other pair have spawned as I don't need two pairs floating around.

Got some photos of my palangkarensis spawning. They spawned in a difficult spot and for some reason my glass kept looking really dirty even though I cleaned it. Anyway as you can see the male is superb.














































Then this is my burdigala's impressive nest. That is the male's tail hanging out in the first photo.


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## babystarz

Congrats on the spawns LBF! And your persephone have gotten so big, it's hard to believe they used to be tiny frylets. 

I found a dead ocellata fry in the tank last night  I know it's to be expected but since I didn't lose any in the first few weeks I thought I was past the random death point. I have no idea what happened, they have all been eating well and none looked sickly. There are no obvious clues on the fry's body, although it looks like it died at least 24 hours ago as it's white and when I found it one of the MTS was snacking on it, which wouldn't happen until a later stage of decomposition. 

I need to think about splitting the fry into two 20 long tanks soon anyway, they are close to outgrowing the 10g nursery tank.


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## LittleBettaFish

Sorry to hear that Babystarz. It's frustrating when some keel over for no apparent reason, or do so after the usual 'danger' period has passed. 

They grow fast the fry out of that complex. How many did you end up with again? You'll end up having ocellata fry coming out of your ears!

My rutilans are growing rather painstakingly slow. Although some show full colouring, they are only around 1/2 an inch big in most cases. Going to be a loooong time before they are ready.


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## efg321

*Little Betta Fish/ spawns look great*

Spawns look great! look at all those persephones.... If you are keeping ALL of them does this make you a betta hoarder????HAHA just kidding best of luck with a little jealousy thrown in....



LittleBettaFish said:


> Persephone juveniles
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> Unimaculata fry/juveniles


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## LittleBettaFish

I have had such terrible luck with persephone. I have lost two adult pairs and one male so I am so happy to actually have some of my own again finally. I think that being my favourite species it is cursed for me.

Got two spawns on the way I may have to clear room for so I think I am actually reaching hoarder status again. I promised myself I was going to cut back, but we all know how those things work. 

Still trying to work out whether to sell/rehome my last splendens. That way I can utilise his tank and heater for more wilds hehehe. Would kill for a coccina and tussyae pair. Then I will have all the fish I (currently) want.


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## Setsuna

Longest threat ever on here?


----------



## babystarz

Haha it's definitely getting up there! 

I don't have time to feel guilty about the dead fry apparently; the small ocellata male has his cheeks full of eggs again already. I just added him back to the community tank. I think the dominant female decided not to split her eggs between the two males this time and gave them all to the small males after he proved himself last time. His cheeks are absolutely stuffed! The large male is still eating like a pig XD

I am very impressed with the ocellata. Two spawns and I've only had them since December. Meanwhile my other 4 wild pairs have produced nothing and I've had all but the patoti for 4 months now lol. At least they're pretty to look at.


----------



## efg321

I am very impressed with the ocellata. Two spawns and I've only had them since December. 

Thats good news! Maybe I will be able to talk you into parting with some in the future if your pair keep spawning @ this rate!!!!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

So far the newborn burdigala fry I took out of their parents' tank and put into a bucket, seem to be doing alright. They are still consuming their yolk sacks but are hanging at the surface and not sinking or anything. 

There are a few unhatched eggs in with them and as I was doing my torch scan to check over the fry, one of them moved and I can see eyes on a couple others! Hopefully these ones will hatch as well and be alright without dad to care for them.

Never tried to raise fry this young without dad being in the picture but didn't want to risk losing them. My wild-caught pair ate their lot. 

My palangkarensis dad is still caring for his eggs and they should be hatching out soon. 

Moved my rutilans pair back in with their adult offspring as I have enough rutilans growing out so don't need to be concerned with them spawning. I rarely saw the parents/adults when they were separated. Now they are together I am seeing a few fish out and about all the time.


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## blueridge

*jumps in* LBF I have to say I enjoyed your story about saving the Betta Rutilan! *disappers*


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha thanks. He is doing really well apart from when I dropped him yesterday while moving my tank and I thought I had killed him as he hit the metal step of my step-ladder. 

He is up now next to my other rutilans although I don't think he is too keen on joining the savages. 

How random. Found a bunch of eggs floating at the top of my uberis tank. Male and female aren't paying them the slightest amount of attention so don't know what's up with that. Don't want to move them to a separate tank in case I harm them but I am afraid they might hatch and I might lose the fry.


----------



## BettAsha

So very grateful for finding this post because I've always been interested in wild betta fish and have done some research on them. Once I become a better betta keeper and finish my work on my line then I'll try keeping some of the wild types. I will definitely be keeping up with this thread.


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## babystarz

efg321 said:


> I am very impressed with the ocellata. Two spawns and I've only had them since December.
> 
> Thats good news! Maybe I will be able to talk you into parting with some in the future if your pair keep spawning @ this rate!!!!



I would be happy to send you a pack of juveniles when they/you are ready for extremely cheap (that goes for everyone here). Ocellata are quite easy to keep happy and at up to 5" long they're very beautiful fish to look at even from across the room. Especially because they're not shy at all


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## efg321

awaiting the baby pics, haha. Sounds like a plan. Put me down for a pack! Thanks again Ed Efg321


----------



## LittleBettaFish

And we have palangkarensis fry!!!










They hatched yesterday afternoon so I left the light on dad all night as there were quite a lot. I woke up at 2:30am and he was still picking them up and placing them back in the nest.

I have around 4-5 burdigala fry that reached the free-swimming stage. The rest died which I kind of expected. I think the parents are spawning again though. 

I did however, experiment by putting one of the burdigala fry in with the palangkarensis. I came by this morning and it was hanging under the nest with all the others. 

Put the film canister in with my brownorum pair and they were under it today so who knows if I have fry on the horizon from them as well.

Then I had this shot I posted on the betta photos section of my uberis male guarding his underwater 'nest'.


----------



## efg321

*babies,babies everywhere!*

Way cool! Congrats on the palangkarensis fry and others.......


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## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. I think my uberis male still has his eggs down in his hollow log. Wondering if the last lot of eggs might actually have hatched and not been eaten.

The six little burdigala fry seem to be doing well. They are so sensitive as they have just started free-swimming so I gently transferred them over to an empty tank where I could see them better and very slowly dripped in some fresh water to allow the heater to submerse. 

Crossing all fingers and toes at least a couple make it past these next few weeks!


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## babystarz

Oh my gosh those babies are so precious and tiny!! I don't get to see any of mine that small 

Speaking of the ocellata fry, they are accepting bbs size (100-200 micron) Golden Pearls now in addition to live bbs. I want to get them used to eating non-live food early so transitioning to pellets won't be a huge step. They are not very excited about the micro worms anymore, they're too small at this point I think. Individual spot patterns and color variations are starting to appear as well. Some of the biggest are half an inch long now. The pipsqueaks are also looking less pathetically tiny compared to their siblings and eating well  

I will get some more pics and videos of them soon!


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## LittleBettaFish

The good thing with the bigger mouthbrooder fry is that they tend to be a lot less fussy about switching over to pellets, and mine also can fit a lot bigger food into their mouth than fry of a comparative size. 

It's exciting getting to watch them grow. Nothing beats having homebred fish swimming in your tanks.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I feel like I am spamming this thread again haha but I got a couple of shots of my palangkarensis male while he was tending his nest. His female is hiding up under an IAL so hopefully she stays away and doesn't eat anyone before I can move them to a grow-out. 

As you can see, a very beautiful species indeed.


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## babystarz

I love how shimmery he is  



Ocellata Babies! Sorry if the picture quality is terrible, it's hard to tell how they will turn out on my tablet:


----------



## LittleBettaFish

How old are they now Babystarz? The mouthbrooders go through such a bug-eyed sort of phase when they are young. Channoides and albimarginata fry are the most adorable things ever.


----------



## babystarz

Haha I bet, even the adults are a bit bug eyed! The fry are 3 weeks old now. I just realized today that they have their ventral fins, I'm so proud of them! You can also see on the lower left corner of the last 2 pics that the boys are getting some iridescence in their tails. I think this spawn is very male-heavy, which is pretty common I hear.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Still only babies. It's amazing how fast they grow, although seeing how big they have to eventually get it is understandable. 

I keep thinking all of my unimaculata are female but then it's so hard to tell when they are still small and don't have full adult colouration. 

It's always exciting when they get their ventrals in. Although it's never happened, there's always this fear with me that I am going to end up with fry that have no ventrals and I hate how unbalanced those fish look.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Got these photos of my new macrostoma female and their tank. Male is a bit clamped up and shy so going to be buying more plants to make him feel more secure. They also aren't full size yet by a long shot so have to fatten them up. 





































The fish in the breeders' net is my unimaculata male. He is waiting for me to divide up another one of my tanks.


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## efg321

ocellata babies very cute baby starz ***** and your macs are stunning lbf *****


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. Male was stunning when I went down last night and he was asleep so fully coloured up and unclamped. Oh well, just will have to wait until he matures a bit more and settles in. 

I have so far managed to keep alive the newly free-swimming burdigala fry. Unfortunately, they are only in around 1L of water so I am going to be _slowly_ dripping water in over the next few days to try and get it up a bit as otherwise my heater won't be submersed. 

Amazed they made it this far. They have already had a water change (not to mention the fact I had to suck them up with a turkey baster to move them all when they were only a few days old) and I was expecting to only get a couple to survive.

I think just slow and steady is going to be the way to go here. Dad has more eggs in his nest so hopefully since they are not too far apart in age I can rear all the fry up together.


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## Setsuna

I want a pair of macro you mind trading? I have smaragdina, imbellis, guitar smaragdina, mahachaiensis, stiktos, and secret betta lol choose from any. Crap nvm you live in Australia bummer


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## efg321

Australia, kills me too she is so far.... Setsuna!


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## Setsuna

efg321 said:


> Australia, kills me too she is so far.... Setsuna!


 :frustrated: i know


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## LittleBettaFish

Muhahaha. You will have to admire them from afar. Plus I only have one pair and they are my mum's so I couldn't trade them anyway. 

I think they are making my hair grey though as they cost a couple hundred bucks and I kept worrying I am going to find macrostoma crisps on the floor one day. 

I don't know what to do with my palangkarensis fry. They look to have consumed their yolk sacs but are still up in the nest. I am not sure whether to remove them now or wait until they are a bit older.

Only thing is if I wait until they are free-swimming on their own I just know I am never going to be able to find half of them because the leaf litter is so thick.


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## Cole mccallister

In case you did not know all bettas are labyrinth fish meaning they get air from our atmosphere so keep some air in those tanks also sucking them up can be dangerous because of them being air breathers so be careful about doing this ok people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Are you talking to me or just in general? I am aware of the care requirements of bettas as I do keep and breed several species of them. 

I've sucked probably every single one of my fish up a siphon or airline tube at least once in their life. None are the worse for wear. I don't do it on purpose but sometimes that's the only way I can pull fry out of a tank with minimal stress.


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## Cole mccallister

LittleBettaFish said:


> Are you talking to me or just in general? I am aware of the care requirements of bettas as I do keep and breed several species of them.
> 
> I've sucked probably every single one of my fish up a siphon or airline tube at least once in their life. None are the worse for wear. I don't do it on purpose but sometimes that's the only way I can pull fry out of a tank with minimal stress.


Just in general sorry for the Misunderstanding.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Ah no worries. I thought you mentioned the sucking thing because I think I posted on here about moving my fry using a turkey baster haha.


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## Cole mccallister

LittleBettaFish said:


> Ah no worries. I thought you mentioned the sucking thing because I think I posted on here about moving my fry using a turkey baster haha.


Well best thing to do if doing that is not to so much worry about injury but leaving some air within the tube agreeable?


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## Cole mccallister

Cole mccallister said:


> Well best thing to do if doing that is not to so much worry about injury but leaving some air within the tube agreeable?


When I had baby guppies I used to suck them up entirely with a pipet for transport to a new tank while I would clean there old ones


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## babystarz

Actually when they're that size they typically haven't started using the labyrinth organ yet; it isn't fully developed until the second week for mouthbrooders, possibly longer for bubblenesters. I've just started to see my babies start coming up for air, they pretty much ignored the water surface before that


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Rutilans fry are doing well. They are still only very small but I chucked in some blackworms and they scoffed them down. Have no idea how a fry eats a blackworm that is as big as it. Never had a fry choke from a blackworm because I think they break up quite easily. 

Otherwise they have been getting grindals and twice weekly feedings of BBS. 














































About half of my palangkarensis fry are in a HOB breeders' box that has water pumped through it. The other half are in with mum and dad as their parents seem to be ignoring them. There are heaps of them, but if I can keep at least 15-20 alive to be moved into a proper grow-out I will be happy. 

Unimaculata fry got moved into a 11 gallon tank, which will be their home now until they outgrow it. They are already outstripping my persephone in growth now, and to my rather crappy eye, they are looking like a majority are females.


----------



## babystarz

My small ocellata female released her first batch of eggs for the large male, so both males are holding now. Yesterday during feeding time both males followed the pellets down to the bottom of the tank but didn't swallow their eggs. They looked at me mournfully though 

Here is the big male, he came right up to the camera to show off his eggs:









And I couldn't get a very good shot of my little blue guy, he was a bit more reticent:


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## efg321

Babystarz.... Wondering if you happened to see this http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettas&1359343288 Got any boys for them?? haha since it seems your boys are occupied!


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## PitGurl

6 week old Guitar fry....


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## indrajit

so curious about the original bettas - thanks - what breeding can do to beautify a species - im reminded of what weve done to budgies


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## LittleBettaFish

Well my palangkarensis pair spawned about two days after the father stopped looking after his first batch of fry (who are living peacefully with mum and dad in their tank) and now I have tails again!










I had at least 50 from the first batch plus this new lot. I think I am going to be overrun by palangkarensis soon. At least this species is very easy to sex correctly and don't seem overly aggressive so I may keep a few pairs on. Still have the pair outside I completely forgot about as well. Going to bring them in and try and sell them. 










These little guys are going nuts trying to get into the palangkarensis tank. I think they can see the fry moving around through the glass and think that it's food. Must be how my tussyae adult views them haha.


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## babystarz

efg321 said:


> Babystarz.... Wondering if you happened to see this http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettas&1359343288 Got any boys for them?? haha since it seems your boys are occupied!


Oh my gosh those girls look ready to pop lol! My two boys are plenty occupied with the two girls, I'm giving them a vacation once they release these babies. They deserve it 

Got my 20 gallon fry growout set up today, with another 20 gallon tank in reserve for when they're bigger. I want to get the nearly month-old fry out of the nursery tank so more newborns can go in there 



> These little guys are going nuts trying to get into the palangkarensis tank. I think they can see the fry moving around through the glass and think that it's food. Must be how my tussyae adult views them haha.


Haha this is how my albimarginata next to the nursery tank act too.


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## LittleBettaFish

That's the only real trouble with wild bettas, trying to find room for all the fry they produce! 

My mother palangkarensis has stolen fry again and made her own rather crummy bubblenest under some IAL. Heaven help the poor older fry she keeps catching and spitting out they must think they are about to be eaten.

Looks like I might some males in my unimaculata fry and persephone tank. Now I am just hoping they aren't *all* male. I suck so much at sexing anything but adult fish most of the time haha.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> My mother palangkarensis has stolen fry again and made her own rather crummy bubblenest under some IAL. Heaven help the poor older fry she keeps catching and spitting out they must think they are about to be eaten.


The image of this I have in my head is just... LOL! Poor girl wants to feel relevant as a parent :sarcastic:


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I figured out why I haven't had any albimarginata spawns. It's not that they're not spawning, they're just eating the eggs right after! I caught them in the act yesterday. Sigh! At this point I don't know how many times they've done it, but I suspect it's a habit by now and I probably won't get any babies out of either pair. I know I have my hands full with the ocellata at the moment, but I did hope I'd eventually get some albi babies. I may need to get another pair in the future if I want that to happen successfully. Ditto for the patoti, the female is fine but the male has continued to attack her whenever she comes out of hiding. And not in a spawning way, in an "I AM GOING TO MURDER YOU!" way. I have such uncooperative fish lol.


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## LittleBettaFish

It's so weird. She kind of had one fry up under some duckweed and I was like I wonder if I put in an IAL whether she will make a nest again under it. And she did. It's sort of like a scattering of oddly shaped bubbles with whatever fry she can grab tucked under there. 

At least it means I can safely grow them out for a little while in there. 

Didn't realise that my male uberis had a nest with eggs in it at the surface of his tan and completely annihilated it with a water change. I think he got most of the eggs as he has hidden himself away again. His female is just some plump hussy. All she does is eat and spawn I think.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Who ever said female wild bettas were drab? This is my palangkarensis female showing off to her reflection. 



















Then here is dad hard at work keeping his fry in the bubblenest. I think if they spawn again I will destroy the bubblenest since I now have so many fry to grow out. 



















You can actually see some of the older fry in this picture.


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## Cole mccallister

LittleBettaFish said:


> Then here is dad hard at work keeping his fry in the bubblenest. I think if they spawn again I will destroy the bubblenest since I now have so many fry to grow out.


 why would you do such a horrible thing just abduct the older fry and sell them around your neiborhood rather than kill for all life is precious or just move the female rather than kill innosence


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## LittleBettaFish

Because one, there is only a very small market for these fish in Australia, two, I don't have the space or money to run yet another tank for one fish, and three because they are fish and if it was the wild at this point in time the male probably would have lost half his fry anyway to predation. The only reason he hasn't is because I am there to keep watch over everything. 

You can just think of me as some evil fish keeper. I guess you think culling fry is terrible as well since they are actually alive and conscious at the time of being killed, not just eggs sitting in a nest.


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## babystarz

Cole mccallister said:


> why would you do such a horrible thing just abduct the older fry and sell them around your neiborhood rather than kill for all life is precious or just move the female rather than kill innosence


Wow. You clearly do not know anything about betta breeding, and until you have 50+ fry to care for and find homes for, you are in no place to judge. Calling someone evil for focusing their resources on the fry they already have is ignorant and naive.


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## efg321

I'm sure we have our opinions..... Culling happens! Early stages or late my opinion early is much better. If shipping from Australia wasnt so bad I would raise another option. Maybe little betta fish should stop playing Barry White and lighting candles in the fish room.!!!! I recently read opinions on a breeder breeding on another thread. breeding was done with two inferior fish but a perfect color the breeder was striving for. result 200+ large spawn culled down to 2 or 3 fish maybe? and still all the work ahead to fix genetics/ form and fins. Ten generations from now what do you think the cull rate will be?


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## LittleBettaFish

The cost of purchasing an export license here is so prohibitive I don't know many businesses that actually have them for fish. I wish it also wasn't so expensive or time-consuming to have fish imported in!

Haha wilds are so prolific. Every time I turn around there is a bubblenest going on or someone spawning. 

It's definitely not for a lack of trying that some of the wild populations are dwindling. My fish are capable of spawning a couple of times a week if conditions are right and they are both ready. 

I'm only lucky you don't have to jar wild betta juveniles. Otherwise I would never had gotten into keeping them.


----------



## babystarz

Big update! I moved the month-old fry to their new growout today. I squished one baby with my net and I feel terrible  He was completely upside down and unable to move, so I ended up putting him down quickly. I'm still kicking myself for it, even though it was an accident. Another jumped out of my net but I was able to rescue him with my hand and put him in the tank and he's fine. They're very interested in their new tank and I think they like all the extra space to explore. It's a bit bare right now but I will get some more caves and such for them, and the plants will fill in quickly.

And I moved them not a moment too soon - literally, as I was depositing the last baby I realized my little ocellata male was spitting out newborns in the adult tank! I even caught one baby being spit out on video  It's so funny how they spit them out, the babies tumble out spinning like little balls until they can right themselves, then they zip around randomly until they figure out how to swim straight.

I managed to transport one newborn to the nursery tank but then decided to stop because I could tell I was scaring the male. I know the adults won't eat newborns so I figured leaving them til tomorrow won't hurt. The other male will be spitting his babies any day now too. I was also not 100% convinced I got all the month-old fry out of the nursery tank so I didn't want to move any more newborns for fear of them becoming snacks. I will inspect every inch of the nursery tomorrow to make sure.

I also found out that my second albimarginata pair spawned (unsuccessfully of course). I found two eggs at the bottom of the tank. I picked one up to inspect it, I was shocked at how big it was, and how really egg-like the shell was. I sort of thought mouthbrooder eggs would be soft, but nope! They're not. They have hard shells. I wish one of these pairs would figure out that eggs are babies, not snacks.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sorry to hear about your squished fry. I've accidentally thrown out my only brownorum fry into the front garden and it is horrible when these things happen. 

Sounds like you've got a fry factory going on there. At least the fry from the bigger mouthbrooding species are a decent size and can take foods like BBS usually straight away. 

Better give your albimarginata a stern talking to. I'm sure they'll get it eventually. Then you'll wish they would stop!

I finally got some photos of my macrostoma male coloured up. He is not fully coloured up as he doesn't like my camera but it is better than the last lot. His female has also coloured up as you can see. If she colours up any more I may think she is male. 





































Also got some photos of my brownorum female. Excuse the hand, it was the only way she would sit still. 




























Burdigala female had to go into 'prison'. Her and the male look like they have been at war. Just going to let them heal up before I re-introduce them. Of course the male spends all his time flaring and preening in front of her still.


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## efg321

Last picture looks like the Betta Version of "Midnight Express"....(behind the glass) haha!


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## tnvol

babystarz said:


> Is it the Wet Spot by any chance? I've bought from them before and have been very happy.


The Wet Spot is in Portland. I live about 10 minutes away. They usually always have a nice assortment of wild type betta.


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## LittleBettaFish

You can see how vicious some of these smaller species can be to each other, even in male/female pairs. This is healed up compared to how my male looked a couple days ago. Female is even worse. Of course they still spend all their time pining for each other. 





































Also another not so wild, but no less vicious 'Siamese' in our household.


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## tnvol

Awesome pics LBF. I've spent the last couple days reading this whole thread. There is more great info here than just about anywhere else. Thanks so much for all the great input!


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah, the only other place I found to have so much personal info on wild bettas was on a French forum where I had to translate the pages using Chrome. 

It's great to be able to share your experiences with other wild betta keepers as not many of the member base here keep them. 

Most of my photos are very opportunistic. I really need to have a day where I clean the glass, have the lights on over everyone and get some proper photos. It's just fortunate my camera usually makes up for my impatience.


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## Cole mccallister

babystarz said:


> Wow. You clearly do not know anything about betta breeding, and until you have 50+ fry to care for and find homes for, you are in no place to judge. Calling someone evil for focusing their resources on the fry they already have is ignorant and naive.





LittleBettaFish said:


> Because one, there is only a very small market for these fish in Australia, two, I don't have the space or money to run yet another tank for one fish, and three because they are fish and if it was the wild at this point in time the male probably would have lost half his fry anyway to predation. The only reason he hasn't is because I am there to keep watch over everything.
> 
> You can just think of me as some evil fish keeper. I guess you think culling fry is terrible as well since they are actually alive and conscious at the time of being killed, not just eggs sitting in a nest.


 peaple calm down I never called anyone evil we all have opinions and i just think killing is wrong unless somthing is suffering or the matter of food mmmm food also i always have spair cheap tanks to buy and to get and have on hand mostly small to start with when the fry are old enough to become independant i move them when they are bigg enough not to get eaten i move again sorry about the mis- interpretation


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## LittleBettaFish

Male palangkarensis is on patrol with fry still in the nest. Him and his female bar up and go up and down the tank side keeping the rutilans juvies next door in line. So love watching all the fry of various ages and sizes swimming along with their parents. One was eyeing up a blackworm but decided that MWs were more its size. 



















This photo is blurry but shows the colour of the male rather well.


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## Cole mccallister

LittleBettaFish said:


> .


 look at his eyes he looks angry lol


----------



## babystarz

tnvol said:


> The Wet Spot is in Portland. I live about 10 minutes away. They usually always have a nice assortment of wild type betta.


That is awesome that you're so close! I would be there all the time if it were me 


LBF I had no idea female macros could be so colorful either!


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## LittleBettaFish

Got photos of my burdigala pair spawning. I thought it would creep them having a full light on and my camera in their faces but they honestly didn't even care. Male came over once or twice to have a flare at me though. 














































Would have had some nicer photos but they spawned in this awkward spot under the breeders' box where not much light was getting through. As you can see this pair also does a lot of damage to each other during courtship.


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## Setsuna

Wats with the tail rips was they aggressive at spawn too?


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## LittleBettaFish

Those two are always aggro. I had them separated with the female in a breeders' box to heal for a couple of days, but they wanted to get out and spawn (male was blowing nests all up against the box) so I let them out again. 

I have given up on those two nutters so they just get to swim around looking tatty.


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## efg321

Love-Hate relationship?........Great pics nonetheless!


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## LittleBettaFish

Whatever they are, the father is a good dad. I put a film canister in and within about an hour he had moved all his eggs up into there to keep them safe. Better for me as then I can just scoop the whole nest out when they are a few days old.


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## babystarz

That is what my female patoti looks like these days! Some of these fish are just mean to each other, no rhyme or reason to it. One minute they hate each other and the next minute they're spawning.

I need to do some serious plant pruning in my tanks. I finally have a few days off this coming week so I will be doing my monthly water change on my big NPT tanks and fixing up the plantscaping in them.

The ocellata babies have grown so much over the past week! I switched them to frozen bbs instead of live because it's easier to feed them more, and I can tell it's made a difference in their growth. It's so nice to have access to frozen, but the pet store always runs out.


----------



## Setsuna

I made a friend in Indonesia thats willing to sell his marcros for 10 a pair to me. is that the best thing or not? Hahahahaa but i told him i can help him sell cause im not a macro fan i told him in the US one pair of macros can go up to 200. He laughed and said there its sold for as low as 5 USD hahahaa


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## blu the betta

pics of marcros please. ive never heard of them.


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## efg321

Setsuna said:


> I made a friend in Indonesia thats willing to sell his marcros for 10 a pair to me. is that the best thing or not? Hahahahaa but i told him i can help him sell cause im not a macro fan i told him in the US one pair of macros can go up to 200. He laughed and said there its sold for as low as 5 USD hahahaa


Setsuna are you sharing the wealth!!!!!???? Would be dying for pair or two! have the tanks awaiting. Away in Az. for work till next week...But after that am ready. 

I was also told you are the IAL King....Willing to part w/ some or split a shipment? Ed efg321


----------



## efg321

babystarz said:


> I need to do some serious plant pruning in my tanks. I finally have a few days off this coming week so I will be doing my monthly water change on my big NPT tanks and fixing up the plantscaping in them.
> 
> Hey! Super Bowl Sunday, Baltimore in a uproar! Me I am packing for a week in AZ(work). Please keep me in mind for your plant trims I have a few sparse tanks freshly cycled awaiting some veggie friends.....My start up tanks 29,15,10, and 10 just getting by w/ some wisteria, java moss, guppy grass. Will work for plants!!!!!! A few of those ocellatta babies need a Godfather??? haha!
> 
> My kids say Go Ravens! Me I want a great Game no matter the outcome! Ed efg321


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## LittleBettaFish

I lost my gorgeous big ideii female yesterday some time. She somehow jumped out even though when I'd last seen her she'd been in her tank and when I looked all the gladwrap was still pulled down and not torn or lifted up. 

Very sad as I did like her even if she had to live alone.


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## Setsuna

blu the betta said:


> pics of marcros please. ive never heard of them.


Macros is just short for macrostoma lol


----------



## Setsuna

efg321 said:


> Setsuna are you sharing the wealth!!!!!???? Would be dying for pair or two! have the tanks awaiting. Away in Az. for work till next week...But after that am ready.
> 
> I was also told you are the IAL King....Willing to part w/ some or split a shipment? Ed efg321


Let me talk to him about it i'll let you know im sure he'll sell it cheap for me hahaha


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## LittleBettaFish

I am seriously running out of tanks and space! 

I looked up and saw that my wild-caught burdigala pair had around ten or so free-swimming fry. Thinking there wouldn't be many, I picked up the film canister and tipped it out into a bucket to transfer to a grow-out tank. 

Turns out the dad was in there with over 20 more fry. He was not happy and is swimming around looking for them but they are all safe and sound in the grow-out away from possibly hungry parent(s). 

My other burdigala fry should be free-swimming soon and I think my rutilans may have spawned/be about to spawn. I decided to separate my palangkarensis male and female since I have so many fry to grow-out from them that I don't need them adding any more.

I just wish my brownorum pair would spawn. The female seems keen so I may have to look at getting another male through the wholesaler as mine is a wimp.


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## Hallyx

Betta macrostoma


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## Cole mccallister

did you guys know that some imbellis live in brackish swamps also me and byron put together a betta imbellis profile come check it out:-D


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## Setsuna

Cole mccallister said:


> did you guys know that some imbellis live in brackish swamps also me and byron put together a betta imbellis profile come check it out:-D


Lets see you have a link some where?


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## Cole mccallister

Setsuna said:


> Lets see you have a link some where?


 alright here goes but pics and spelling corrections are still pending lol
Peaceful Betta (Betta imbellis) Profile


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## Setsuna

Well i looked at it and its okay i guess except imbellis cannot be found in Thailand it is only found in Malaysia. The only wild bettas that are found in Thailand are original smaragdina, guitar smaragdina, splenden, mahachaienesis, and as for stiktos that type is in Cambodia


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## LittleBettaFish

I would also probably change this part of your profile:



> they will do no damage to each other


Because this sounds like 100% of the time two imbellis aren't going to do damage to each other. Even though imbellis are called the 'peaceful betta', they will still spar and cause physical damage to each other just like all species of betta. My trio (I think they were all female) used to bicker every now and then, and sometimes this would result in a torn fin or missing scale. 

Also, I would possibly take out the bit about them being hardy enough to survive the cycling process. I think it could give the wrong idea in that people might just think it's okay to chuck a imbellis in an uncycled tank and not bother to do anything like they are prone to doing with splendens. 

Otherwise it just needs to be checked for spelling and grammar like you mentioned.


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## Cole mccallister

LittleBettaFish said:


> I would also probably change this part of your profile:
> 
> 
> 
> Because this sounds like 100% of the time two imbellis aren't going to do damage to each other. Even though imbellis are called the 'peaceful betta', they will still spar and cause physical damage to each other just like all species of betta. My trio (I think they were all female) used to bicker every now and then, and sometimes this would result in a torn fin or missing scale.
> 
> Also, I would possibly take out the bit about them being hardy enough to survive the cycling process. I think it could give the wrong idea in that people might just think it's okay to chuck a imbellis in an uncycled tank and not bother to do anything like they are prone to doing with splendens.
> 
> Otherwise it just needs to be checked for spelling and grammar like you mentioned.


 sorry but this is from TFK i can`t go changeing any thing i want like a wiki it has to go through procceses first mabe i shoud send byron for these complains as i am not a moderator


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sorry I thought when you'd said that you and Byron had put it together that meant you were able to make changes to it. 

Got some photos of my burdigala and palangkarensis fry. Burdigala fry are getting bigger and I just found that they have a massive sibling in with the parents that I only just saw today.

Here is their mum picking up eggs from yesterday's spawn. 



















Here is one of the fry in the grow-out with a belly full of MWs. 



















Here are my palangkarensis fry. I have two tanks full of these fry. The main tank had the parents removed and so a majority of the fry are in there, and then there is a separate grow-out with around 20-30 of them. 




























I did't bother with the macro lens so I couldn't get any real nice shots. They are a bit small at the moment to get a real good look at.


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha took these shots of my unimaculata male bunking (temporarily) in with his juveniles. He wants out and they want in, but the smallest are probably still able to fit inside his mouth so until they get bigger they will have to be separated.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

_Finally_ managed to pull around 20 odd fry out of my Betta uberis tank before they left the film canister the nest was built in. Of course dad has already started work on a new bubblenest and has been chasing the female around. These fish are going to spawn me out of tanks! 

Then I found like 5-6 biggish fry in one of my burdigala tanks. Going to leave them in with their parents since they have been showing no interest in them. 




























Think this is a nice looking male colouring up in my persephone tank. Looks like I may have predominately males at this point, but there seem to be a couple of females in there as well to continue my line with.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Persephone moved into the permanent home yesterday. I only just chucked in what I had on hand, but eventually the java moss will be gone and they will only have lots of goldvine wood, some hydrilla and a lot of IALs scattered across the bottom of the tank.

For some reason my camera did not want to focus on them so the photos aren't as good as usual. 





































Some of the males look nearly big enough to spawn so put some film canisters in there just in case. I really want to get a second generation out of them if I can. If not, they are still extremely beautiful.


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## efg321

love the long rimless tanks..........


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## LittleBettaFish

Me too. I have been wanting the Mr Aqua 12 gallon long for ages now. My mum got it for me which was so awesome of her as I didn't even use it for her fish.


----------



## Setsuna

I'll post my new wilds next week once i get them


----------



## bryzy

So, I'm looking to get a wild. Can I have basic care info?


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## LittleBettaFish

Depends on what species you want to get. Some species are harder than others to care for. 

Imbellis, smaragdina and mahachai are probably the wild species closest to splendens.


----------



## myotherfishisabetta

Great pictures, they look really healthy!!!!!


----------



## Setsuna

I'll have a ton of wild bettas ship to me on the 25th. I'll have 1 pair smaragdina, 4 extra male smaragdina(was given free),2 pair of the new species Siamorientalis with 2 extra male(was given free) and 1 copper smaragdina i will post pictures once i get them ^^


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sounds like you are going to have your hands full with all your new wild bettas. Be interested in seeing the Siamorientalis once they settle in. 

Do you prefer having more males than females as it seems like you got a lot of extra males on top of your pairs.

I have an angry male burdigala. I took away his film canister and the bubblenest he was working on and now he is swimming around chasing his female. 



























The object of his 'affection'

I gave up on these two ever looking nice as they are absolute monsters. I want my males to have a rest as they have been spawning continuously for about the last month and I have too many fry to try and rear. 


















This is my much shyer wild-caught burdigala female. Just stripped about 50 fry from their tank and have another 30 odd in a grow-out. 

I think I also disturbed my poor brownorum while they were thinking of spawning. They were both in the film canister and all these bubbles came out when I was changing their water ... oops.


----------



## Catie79

I can't believe I didn't see this thread before. I'll join in with my splendens complex representatives.

I've been keeping betta imbellis since October and have really enjoyed them. Being able to keep them in a group and see the interactions makes for a great tank to keep in the living room. I currently have 7 (2 males, 5 females) in my 40g breeder. They have a support crew of cories, Amano shrimp, and a bulldog pleco, but the tank is really focused on the imbellis. They've really lived up to their names as the peaceful bettas. The most violence I've seen was two males in display getting into some tail slapping and pushing. I rarely see nipped fins and my females will hang out in the pennywort together during their afternoon siesta. They were juvies when I got them so it's been interesting seeing them grow up and set up a hierarchy.

Their tank is heavily planted, aiming for the overgrown look. I recently added IAL and am still getting used to the tannin stained water. I keep having the urge to change the water, even though my imbellis seem to appreciate them. The rocks form a network of caves. After a scare, it looks like I've got an empty tank until I bribe them out with bloodworms.










Sorry about the awful cellphone picture, but it's the most recent full tank shot I have. I do have better ones of the residents!



















One of my ladies very dressed up.










Please excuse the algae, but the imbellis are very curious about the resident snails and the picture is too cute to not share.

I'm currently setting up a spawning tank for the dominant male and female (Big Papa and Dainty, yes, I've named them). With the other tank occupants, the big tank isn't really private enough for my imbellis. I don't have a good picture of the two of them, but they do hang out quite a bit and I'm pretty sure I spotted some spawning behavior after a water change with cooler water. Unfortunately the cooler water also set off the cories. It was a rather . . . exciting couple of days in the 40g. Love was in the air.

If I can successfully spawn the imbellis, my next species will be coccina. I have a spot set aside for a 20g long that I can set up as a blackwater environment. The husband really likes the look of them so gave me the green light to expand beyond my original aquarium quota. I don't want to get a species that's endangered if I don't think I have a reasonable shot at spawning them, so that will wait until I've had some luck with the imbellis.

I love all of the information in this thread and I'm looking forward to learning more!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha if you are going to jump into the coccina complex of bettas you had better get used to the look of tannins. Some of mine won't spawn unless the water is the colour of strong tea. 

Most species that are threatened in the wild aren't as rare in the trade. Coccina complex bettas are extremely prolific if you get their conditions right and so you don't need to be scared off by the fact that some are endangered. 

It's more from habitat loss the are going extinct, not for a lack of spawning activity that is for sure!


----------



## Catie79

I'm slowly getting used to it. I think I triggered a bacterial bloom with a filter reconfig, so now that the water is clearing up it isn't bothering me as much. It just looks odd next to the tank for my betta splendens where you can barely tell there's water in it. It doesn't help that I had a guest compare the two tanks and inform me that I needed to take better care of my big tank. :roll:

That's why I want to start with coccina, it's relatively easy to get a hold of and not one that has trouble spawning in captivity. I want to make sure I've figured out spawning since I want to get involved with the SMP through the IBC and the local species conservation program through the aquarium society I've joined. I'd love to be able to share wilds with some of the other hobbyists in my area.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I wish coccina were easy to get a hold of here. Recently it seems like they are one of the harder species of wild bettas to find and get into Australia. Had the opportunity to get a wild-caught pair from Hermanus but I was half-broke and bought the burdigala pair instead because I thought my other pair wasn't a male/female.

This is of course *before* they started spawning every single week. Typical!

If you keep their water extremely soft and acidic and the temperature on the cooler side they should spawn. I only ever house one pair to a tank as otherwise I find your fry end up vanishing into thin air if your pair spawns at all. 

Ever since I started using film canisters in with my coccina complex species the males never come out of them.


----------



## Catie79

I had my heart set on betta picta or falx until I realized I'd be doing good if I ever found a pair. I never see them listed anywhere. I keep looking in case I spot a pair for my 6 gallon that's all planted up and lovely. Coccina and channoides both show up on Aquabid pretty regularly here in the US. Brownrum is tempting, but pretty darn expensive. Maybe later when I'm more confident. The coccina are juvies and not sexed so I'll end up running a group tank to grow them out and sex them.

I'm lucky that my tap water is so soft that I have to use a gH booster to keep my planted tanks happy. It's pretty easy for me to drop the pH and I have to watch it closely in most tanks to make sure it doesn't drop too much. The tricky part is going to be finding film canisters!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah our tapwater here is one of the best in the world. It has 0 KH coming out of the tap and my wilds thrive in it. Makes it so much easier than having to go through the hassle of using rain or RO water. 

I was lucky in that my second cousin's wife has diabetes, and she is trialing a medication that is light sensitive and needed to be kept in what is essentially a film canister. It's funny to think how common film canisters used to be back in the dim, dark ages when all cameras used film. 

I get some of my wilds through Xtrembetta. I believe he has burdigala, brownorum, uberis and rutilans, and all of mine from him have been male/female pairs. He is also really nice to deal with, and all of my fish from him have been healthy and of breeding quality.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Finally my burdigala fry are big enough to be photographed!


----------



## Setsuna

FINALLY!!!!! my Siamorientalis is here. My thai friends sent me 2 Pairs and 2 Extra males next shipment hes sending me 4 more pairs free 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ajOHB3rWl4&feature=youtu.be


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Stunning fish! It's good that at least some pure ones are in the hands of hobbyists where hopefully their future can be secured.


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## Setsuna

Betta Siamorientalis


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## efg321

beautiful fish, enjoy, thanks for the pictures!


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## bethyMT

I'm sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere...I can't seem to find it.

My question: I love the wild species bettas, and would like to have some in the future. Is it ethical to keep wild species as purely pets, not necessarily for breeding? Is it in some way contributing to thier demise in the wild to not breed them? 

I just don't think I'm cut out for breeding bettas. Or anything else. But I think I could provide a good home for a few wilds. Would this be OK, or should I just stick with splendens?

Just something I'm thinking about for the future. My current bettas are quite young and I'm looking forward to a good few years with them first. 

Thanks for your insight. I just don't want to think about doing the wrong thing.


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## Setsuna

bethyMT said:


> I'm sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere...I can't seem to find it.
> 
> My question: I love the wild species bettas, and would like to have some in the future. Is it ethical to keep wild species as purely pets, not necessarily for breeding? Is it in some way contributing to thier demise in the wild to not breed them?
> 
> I just don't think I'm cut out for breeding bettas. Or anything else. But I think I could provide a good home for a few wilds. Would this be OK, or should I just stick with splendens?
> 
> Just something I'm thinking about for the future. My current bettas are quite young and I'm looking forward to a good few years with them first.
> 
> Thanks for your insight. I just don't want to think about doing the wrong thing.


you can keep them as pets it doesn't matter. If your looking to get wild bettas from the splenden complex group they required the same care as a splenden only but if your looking to get some other betta complex group im not so sure about the others ones because some are water sensitive


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## LittleBettaFish

Mine are all pets first and foremost. I have groups of fish that I bred and have never spawned and I still get just as much enjoyment out of owning them. 

Many species will come up as endangered in the wild, but are secure in the hands of hobbyists. Most of the species are endangered because of habitat loss, not because they are being wild-caught for the trade. 

Like Setsuna said, depending on what species you are interested in, their care requirements can differ. The blog in my signature covers the care requirements, and difference in care, for coccina complex bettas vs the domesticated form of Betta splendens.


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## LittleBettaFish

Just spamming this thread now with pictures of my fry and some of my older fish. 

Betta burdigala (wild-caught parents) 



















Betta uberis 










Betta palangkarensis




























Betta uberis (in tank with parents)



















Betta burdigala (in tank with parents)




























Betta persephone



















Betta unimaculata (I think I have a lot of males in here with maybe one-two females)



















Betta rutilans (just moved into their new 10 gallon grow-out)


















As you can see I have my hands pretty full at the moment. Have been giving my BBS hatchery and grindal worm cultures a work-out.


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## efg321

rutilans and persephone are awesome it's a shame you live so far!!!!


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha maybe it's a good thing I live so far away or all my wilds might disappear.


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## efg321

I'm a good sharer Iwould leave one or two....


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## Setsuna

Betta Siamorientalists 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2MSkzjx3so

These are 3 different fishes 
i have 7 pairs total 

Siam 1








Siam 2








Siam 3


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## efg321

Nice... Looking Good....


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I like how long and snakey wild bettas are in body shape. Saw an awesome pair of imbellis the other day on AB. If only wishes were fishes my whole room would be full of them. 

Think I have a little man about the house in my uberis tank. 









(dad is in the background)



























(this is mum eating grindals meant for her fry)

I am wondering if it is temperature related as coccina complex species seem very skewed towards male predominant spawns. I only got a handful of females if that from my persephone and my uberis are now all looking male too. Going to experiment by turning the temperature right down as these guys like it cooler anyway. 

I also have a couple of big burdigala fry coming on. Their parents are wild-caught and they live in with them.











Then this is just a nice photo of my burdigala captive bred female










Have lots of fry currently I have to figure out what to do with. Got a couple spare 2ft tanks I can use as grow-outs for them all.


----------



## phikhanhs

anyone have betta imbellis ????


----------



## JBonez423

I really want to get a few. They're fascinatingly beautiful.


----------



## efg321

Check w/ Setsuna he had a spawn around the first of year. I have a pair but no spawn for at least a month if then........


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## LittleBettaFish

Uberis juveniles are getting bigger now they are onto adult foods. The biggest male has even starting challenging his mother but she is built like a tank and just mows him down. 



























Here's the one I am hoping is female as I have a spare unrelated uberis male whose previous mate died. 









This is one of my million burdigala fry. Looks like another male as mum does not show as much iridescence even when fully coloured.


----------



## Catie79

I've learned a sharp lesson about stressing these wilds. I made a mistake two months ago with introducing a couple of peaceful but boisterous fish to my community that included betta imbellis, and even though I removed them when I realized it wasn't going to work, I lost the last of my original 8 yesterday. Something went through the tank like wildfire. I've got my two remaining imbellis juvies sitting in a 5 gallon where I can monitor them closely.

It's so weird, I lost all 8 imbellis with similar symptoms, but it didn't touch any of the cories or the pleco. The cories are as fat and happy as ever. The juvies that were added after the busy fish were removed also seem fine. Makes me suspect that the imbellis were stressed, immune systems went down, and something took them out. Nothing stresses my cory school. Ever. It looks like my two survivors are a male/female pair, so I'm going to keep them somewhere quiet and entirely on their own to see if they'll take to each other. My 40g will just house killis for awhile while I figure out what the heck happened.

Species only tanks for these beauties from here on out (except cories, no one ever minds cories). :|


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Shame to hear that you lost nearly all your imbellis. Mine are all in species only set-ups because of the conditions they thrive in and because I want them to spawn. I always advocate species only set-ups for wilds as I think they just do best in these. 

Have you ever attempted to spawn any of your imbellis or was it more of a if spawning happens it happens type thing?


----------



## Catie79

It was more of a 'if it happens' sort of thing. I enjoyed watching the natural behavior with the group. Three males, five females, and a lot of cover made for interesting viewing. The boys would hang out together until a female showed up in breeding colors, then it was all posturing and amazing colors. I have my fingers crossed that these two will thrive in their specialized solo set up and I'll have my first spawn.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I've found that the wilds will show off better in a group setting, but tend not to want to spawn as much unless the group consists of a pair and their juvenile/adult offspring. 

Good luck with your two. Imbellis are nice little fish and hopefully something happens now it's just the two of them.


----------



## Catie79

The duo seem quite content in their new digs. The tank was heavily influenced by Littlebettafish's setups, even though these guys are splendens complex. Leaf litter, pile of rocks for hidey holes, a couple anubias and plastic plants, a ton of pennywort floating, diffused lighting, tannin stained water. Looks like my calculations were a bit off since the water was a bit too dark this morning. I've got them at weak tea right now. 

Terrible, terrible picture but the settings that make betta happy don't make for stellar pictures.










Now I wait for them to grow up and see if I'm right that it's a pair or if the 'female' is a juvenile male. I haven't seen any sign of posturing or aggression, just hanging out together and some showing off from the one I know is male, so I'm still hopeful.


----------



## efg321

My Imbellis and Smaragdina enjoy the same type set ups. Some with gravel, some without. I also rely on guppy grass and java moss(sometimes the java moss wall-clump makes for happy hiding as well)...Hope it turns out you have a pair left. I agree happy betta water makes for lousy pics. My favorite nano tank was started w/ "muck" and water from New Jersey cedar swamp/ Pine Barrens.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sharing some pictures of my Betta burdigala family. Have fry/juveniles of all ages living with their mum and dad. Going to move them into a 10 gallon tank in the next couple of days because they are outgrowing their current one. 






















































A very small sibling









Full coloured male juvenile









What I am hoping is a young female


----------



## GhostFeather

So,Grapvine twigs,etc are ok to use?
Thanks
Bill


----------



## LittleBettaFish

We get wood called goldvine here. That is what I use in my wild species tanks. I have no idea if it is the same thing or not. 

I have heard some people caution against using grapevine in case any pesticides have been sprayed on it. But that's about it.


----------



## Setsuna

My other male splenden and 2 females

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxVvwqRHQHk


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## Setsuna

My wild betta siamorientalis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1uA2jCXQY&feature=youtu.be


----------



## GhostFeather

This has been one of the more interesting threads I have read!!!!
If anyone has any wild spawns and wants to sell a few,send me a pm.
Bill


----------



## efg321

Setsuna has some imbellis all ready to go! I have some smaragdina, but they just got into grow out will be a while.


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## GhostFeather

I got a trio from Setsuna,let me know when yours are ready,I will get some from you if you are going to sell some.
Thanks
Bill


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## LittleBettaFish

Wild bettas are so easily amused. I have been soaking some oak leaves since early this morning and put them into a couple of my tanks. Straight away everyone is down in amongst the leaves having a look and seeing if they are edible.










I have at least 20 fry/juveniles in that tank with mum and dad. I thought there was 12 but I counted this morning and they seem to be taking over. Fry definitely grow a lot faster when they are kept in tank with mum and dad. My ones in the grow-outs are nowhere near as big even though I feed them twice a day and do larger water changes.


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## Setsuna

Nice bettas


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## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. Dad is wild-caught and nowhere near as colourful as his sons. It also looks to be a very male oriented spawn unfortunately. 

How balanced have you been finding the sexes of your splendens complex bettas? Fairly even spread of males/females or skewed more heavily towards one sex?


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## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Thanks. Dad is wild-caught and nowhere near as colourful as his sons. It also looks to be a very male oriented spawn unfortunately.
> 
> How balanced have you been finding the sexes of your splendens complex bettas? Fairly even spread of males/females or skewed more heavily towards one sex?


I seem to get more females then males


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## LittleBettaFish

Darn you! I need more females than males here. 

I do wonder with mine if it is water temperature, as the coccina species seem to hail from cooler waters, whereas hobbyists seem to keep them in a slightly higher range. 

The tank where the temperature was only 25 degrees seems to have given me a few more females than the tank where the temperature was 28 degrees or so. 

I think it's just going to be harder to sell on a whole bunch of males.


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## Setsuna

Yea, people mostly want males then females.


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## Catie79

Whelp, my jinx continues. I had the lid off while doing maintenance and the male jumped. Unfortunately I have dogs, so I came back to a tank with just one occupant and a smug little dog. Total rookie mistake and I usually know better, but I was just not paying enough attention. Now I'll just wait for the pair Setsuna is conditioning for me and hope that it ends my jinx. I've got a spiffy new ten gallon all set up and running for them.


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## efg321

I have at least 20 fry/juveniles in that tank with mum and dad. I thought there was 12 but I counted this morning and they seem to be taking over. Fry definitely grow a lot faster when they are kept in tank with mum and dad. My ones in the grow-outs are nowhere near as big even though I feed them twice a day and do larger water changes.[/QUOTE]

Have two spawns going right now. One in natural planted tank heavy plants gravel bottom... small spawn 30- or less from my Guitar Smaragdina pair. Small spawn/tiny nest ok dad but shy!(maybe a sneaky mom, not sure whether I will pull her) we will see.

2nd spawn Copper Smaragdina(hybrid) in a wild type setup hardscape,leaf litter,bare bottom some plants. Great Dad huge spawn(300+ hope he culls some more) Pulled Mom as she is aggressive and wants to breed again and again. Dad needs a break after his hard work. Dad still in tank w/ younguns...

Wild smard. pair 2 near miss spawns! Good nest from male.First time female blew her eggs while being conditioned/separated. 2nd time Huge nest 3 inches by 4 1/2 inches and up to 3/4 inch thick. eggs ended up on bottom not sure if they were spawning or another near miss from my gal.


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## efg321

Catie 79 sorry for your misfortune....OUCH! hope your luck turns around!


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## LittleBettaFish

That really sucks Catie. Wild bettas are buggers for jumping out. I have lost several fish during water changes when the glad wrap has been off for only ten or fifteen minutes and it's only later I find the dried up body. 

See efg321, I am glad none of my wilds have spawns with hundreds of fry. I think I would die. I much prefer the 20-50 my pairs generally give me. 

Mystery juvenile is growing up. Still on the fence as to whether it is rutilans or brownorum. I have been intending on catching it to put in with my brownorum but I think that will be something I need the time and patience to do. 









Mystery juvenile









This is supposed to be a 'full' sibling









This is what I am thinking it may be (Betta brownorum)


----------



## Setsuna

I might start a planted tank and get a pair of macros. I really want to see how mouth brooders breed in person


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## LittleBettaFish

Macs are nice fish. My pair was just starting to get their full colours and put on some size before their heater boiled them. 

I find mouthbrooding really odd. My rutilans male does a combo of mouthbrooding and nesting for some reason. 

I think it is probably a good strategy though as you can hold onto your fry and have them come out a little faster and stronger then if they were hanging vulnerable in the nest.


----------



## Catie79

I've got my heart set on a pair of picta or falx for when I make the jump to mouth brooders.


----------



## efg321

Setsuna said:


> I might start a planted tank and get a pair of macros. I really want to see how mouth brooders breed in person



Setsuna you need a mr aqua 12 gal long rimless tank FOR THOSE macs!!!! SWEET!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I would say a macrostoma (which is what I am assuming macros are) would need bigger than a Mr Aqua 12 gallon. I have one and they would make that thing look cramped once full grown.


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## efg321

I agree its just my new dream tank!


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## Catie79

A pair of albimarginata would look really cool in there, so long as you get a lid made for it. Similar look but smaller. I'd love to have that tank on my shelves. A little sponge filter on each end, interesting driftwood, and a colored up albimarginata pair? Lovely.


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## Setsuna

i just found a connection to a pair of wild caught Macros for 93USD. im happy hahaha imma setup a tank and buy them i'll show you guys when i get them would be great my first pair of Mouth brooders


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## LittleBettaFish

They are great fish. Also excellent jumpers and very strong so make sure there are no gaps for them to get out. The unimaculata complex are notorious for jumping. 

Catie, I have the 12 gallon long for my Betta persephone group and it is awesome. They like the low, long shape and it is excellently made. I think albis would be perfect for one.


----------



## Catie79

It seems to be the night for finding connections! I just found a breeder with betta falx. I'm so excited, it's kind of ridiculous. I have Setsuna conditioning an imbellis pair for me and now I've found a falx pair. The hubby isn't amused, but I'm sure he'll cope. I'm glad I put in new shelving to manage the new tanks I'm adding. I've got a 10g going for the imbellis pair and a 5g to house the falx pair, assuming that the pair will need to be separated to control breeding.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Got some updated fry/juvenile photos. Looks like I am going to be selling off a lot of male burdigala. I think my whole wild-caught spawn is male! 

Here are a couple Betta uberis fry


















Betta burdigala fry 









Betta burdigala fry in with parents


----------



## Setsuna

Wild Betta Siamorientalis pair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTVTnOE_9lw


----------



## Catie79

I'm getting my new betta imbellis pair this week from Setsuna! This is the male: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBD5YHdLIZc

The falx need to wait for the weather to get a bit warmer. The breeder doesn't have heat packs and the temps aren't going to be consistently warm enough this week. That's okay, that gives me more time to focus on the imbellis new arrivals. I also have scuds arriving tomorrow and I'm sure the wilds are going to go nuts over them.


----------



## Setsuna

Catie79 said:


> I'm getting my new betta imbellis pair this week from Setsuna! This is the male: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBD5YHdLIZc
> 
> The falx need to wait for the weather to get a bit warmer. The breeder doesn't have heat packs and the temps aren't going to be consistently warm enough this week. That's okay, that gives me more time to focus on the imbellis new arrivals. I also have scuds arriving tomorrow and I'm sure the wilds are going to go nuts over them.


these guys are some of his brothers
1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRdVsg5BzYw
2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goJ-fSJE8jc

and 3


----------



## Wildbetta

Hey guys! Just found this thread.  I used to keep lots of splendens although I never got into breeding them. Kept around 27 with 15 or so being females in a sorority. I never really had the want to raise 100+ fry that would have to be separated so early into single containers. LOL Once I got hooked onto the wilds though it was over. I rehomed all but 1 of my splendens and have only bought 1 since bringing my total splendens to 2.

Opposite of Littlebettafish, I keep/breed only mouthbrooders and don't care much for bubblenesters. I currently own 2 pairs of F1 Betta Albimarginata, 1 pair Betta Simplex, 1 WC pair Betta Midas, and 8 juvie Betta Unimaculata. I have kept Betta Ocellata, Betta Pugnax, and Betta Macrostoma up until a heater malfunction that stressed the whole lot out and brought on columnaris.

Here are some pics of my current fry

Betta Albimarginata Fry (3 spawns--2month old, 1month old, and 2 weeks old)







Showing size difference between the 2month old and 2week old fry




Betta Midas (2weeks old)


----------



## Setsuna

Pretty cool


----------



## efg321

Guess I can no longer call my Guitar Smaragdina shy. Male holds front and center on front glass(site of first nest/spawn). 8 day old fry in tank and they have bred again! I guess Wednesday night is the "new" Saturday night for WHOOPEE! Small nest again Quarter size if that! I guess I was interupting but they did stop for nourishment. Didnt even see the eggs until I was done feeding. Will check this am to see if they went back to it.


----------



## Setsuna

efg321 said:


> Guess I can no longer call my Guitar Smaragdina shy. Male holds front and center on front glass(site of first nest/spawn). 8 day old fry in tank and they have bred again! I guess Wednesday night is the "new" Saturday night for WHOOPEE! Small nest again Quarter size if that! I guess I was interupting but they did stop for nourishment. Didnt even see the eggs until I was done feeding. Will check this am to see if they went back to it.


thats great please take pictures for us to see


----------



## Catie79

My new imbellis are here! I was so relieved to see them since I'm in the Boston area and just about everything is on lockdown today. One male and two females are currently checking out the 10 gallon slice of betta heaven I set up for them. I'll get pictures up as soon as the hubby gets home with the good camera. My cell phone just doesn't cut it.

The trio have already perked up nicely. They all lit up like Christmas trees when they discovered the mini-scuds I'd stashed in the leaf litter. All three are hunting right now and not interested in having their pictures taken.


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## Setsuna

^^ glad someones happy


----------



## Wildbetta

That is awesome! Can't wait to see pics from both Efg321 and Catie79.  

I have an update as well. My male simplex just released his fry today. And I seen a midas fry in the main tank that somehow must have been released in there sometime back about a month ago. It looks really good and I think I will leave it in the main tank now that it is the size it is now. Even though it is still small enough that the simplex or even the parent midas could eat it, it has hidden and survived thus far so I am willing to see if it can make it.

Pics:

Simplex fry





Betta Midas fry


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## Setsuna

Very cool


----------



## efg321

Can't wait to see pics from both Efg321 and Catie79.  

Will try to remember camera from work my cell not so good...Busy weekend Lax and soccer games refereeing for me! Rugby game for my son(Captain of JV team) and play (willie wonka)weekend for my daughter. Who schedules this stuff??? doesnt leave too much fish time!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Nice fry Wildbetta. I like how big the mouthbrooders are when the male finally releases them. A lot easier to feed from the start than the bubblenesters. 

Was in a bad mood about my fish the other day. Have had a few serious things going wrong with some of them this past week, and so I was watching my persephone males sparring in the afternoon sun and got some nice photos out of it. 





































This was two sisters fighting earlier that day


----------



## efg321

Was in a bad mood about my fish the other day. Have had a few serious things going wrong with some of them this past week, and so I was watching my persephone males sparring in the afternoon sun and got some nice photos out of it. 


Hope that was enough to put a smile back on your face!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah it was. I have had velvet break out in a few of tanks and then had to euthanise three of my 6/7 month old unimaculata juveniles from some yet to be diagnosed disease. Then I poured one of my uberis juveniles (only a small one) down the sink the other day because I wasn't thinking. 

I don't know why my fish keep getting velvet. I know that complex is more susceptible, particularly when young, but it is bloody annoying as I am always such a careful fishkeeper and make sure I do all the right things. 

Lucky my persephone, brownorum, burdigala and adult rutilans are all okay. They are on a separate bucket/siphon so I managed not to spread velvet everywhere like last time.


----------



## Catie79

I snapped off a couple of pictures with my phone, so hopefully you'll be able to see something.

First, the tank:










One of my new girls saying hi.










One of the ladies hunting.










The male was also hunting.










The male out in the open. 










The male and one of the females. Courting behavior already?










Maybe, maybe. He does seem awfully preoccupied with the floating leaves.










I missed the pictures of him and one of the ladies really showing off. He's just stunning when he's flaring, but I'm not encouraging him to do anything more than just get settled into his new home and hunt up some dinner.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Don't you hate when wilds clamp their fins shut when you are trying to take photos? 

What were they hunting? Anything, or just thinking they were? Haha. 

Male is showing some nice colour. It's always exciting when you see them hanging up at the surface looking at what could be possible nest sites.


----------



## Catie79

I tossed in some mini scuds (itty bitty amphipods native to the area) to give them something to hunt. The male nabbed one when I dropped them in, but the rest they've had to hunt down. They all lit up when they realized there was food to hunt in the leaves. 

I was so mad that they broke off their flirting when I grabbed my cell phone. Both the male and female were on full display. The females are far from dull when they're completely colored up and showing off.


----------



## Setsuna

very beautiful!! make sure you cover the whole tank beause they will jump through the smallest little openings and if the water is still you will surely see a nest because when i conditioned him for you he had a nest build


----------



## Catie79

I ordered up a brand new versa-top so the tank has a nice, heavy lid with new gaps. Hopefully they won't teleport like some of LBF's fish do. I have my fingers crossed for the morning, since I've only got a sponge filter going in that tank. The male was certainly going 'hubba hubba' when he realized he was in with two girls.


----------



## Wildbetta

Very nice Catie!! It really is amazing when you see the females of the wilds actually show off because they really are just as stunning as the males most of the time.

LBF -- I am really pleased with my fry this week especially the little betta midas fry that has survived in the main tank. I would not be surprised if it was only it and the parents because the seller of the parents told me they didn't eat their fry but the simplex are fry eaters and they share the tank with the midas.

I did run into some upsetting news yesterday. The 2 biggest unimaculata juvies (the ones I had picked out as a pair) were lying dead and bloated almost right next to each other early yesterday afternoon. Totally baffles me as they were perfectly fine the night before and the rest of the tank inhabitants are completely fine. Still have no idea as to what happened to them. Irritates me because I was fixing to sell off the other 5 or 6 juvies since I only really wanted a pair or reverse trio for myself and now that makes it more difficult cause now I have to pick out another female cause I already had another male picked out.


----------



## Wildbetta

mahachai -- my friend lost her female and is currently looking for another. Does anyone who keeps wilds have a lead on any of these?


----------



## Setsuna

Wildbetta said:


> mahachai -- my friend lost her female and is currently looking for another. Does anyone who keeps wilds have a lead on any of these?


super easy to obtain


----------



## LittleBettaFish

This is how aggressive my wild-caught brownorum can be to each other. The flesh coloured areas are injuries. 

They spawned today and the male has around 6-8 eggs that he is watching in the film canister. The female is a notorious egg eater, but the male has for once not been letting her back into where the nest is. She looks as angry as a fish can look. 

So hoping I can one day get some fry from this pair. Even just a couple would be nice. 




























(Sorry photos are not great. My glass is dirty and she kept moving around)


----------



## Setsuna

that dude is a nice red


----------



## LittleBettaFish

That's the female. She is a nice red though. Male has a big bright green spot on his side. 

With this complex I found the females are not too bland. They lack just a little less colour than the males.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> That's the female. She is a nice red though. Male has a big bright green spot on his side.
> 
> With this complex I found the females are not too bland. They lack just a little less colour than the males.


They look nice


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah. They are one of my favourite species. Odd thing with this species is that some mouthbrood and some bubblenest. My previous male used to mouthbrood while this male nests. Would probably be better if he held the eggs because then the female couldn't eat them! 










This is the male. I _think_ I have a juvenile from my previous pair but am still not 100% on identification as it has no spot.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Yeah. They are one of my favourite species. Odd thing with this species is that some mouthbrood and some bubblenest. My previous male used to mouthbrood while this male nests. Would probably be better if he held the eggs because then the female couldn't eat them!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the male. I _think_ I have a juvenile from my previous pair but am still not 100% on identification as it has no spot.


Wow so they are both mouthbrooder and bubblenester? Wtf oO? Lol


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah, it isn't known what triggers some males to mouthbrood. Some think it's only a particular strain of brownorum that mouthbrood.

Betta rutilans are the same. My male has always held his eggs. I have never seen him build a bubblenest in his two years of spawning. 

I wanted a male/female pair out of his offspring to see if it was a genetic or environmental trait.


----------



## Setsuna

I think mouthbrood frys are easier to care for and feed because when the male release the frys from his mouth they are big already no need to worry about fry food at young age


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well with the bubblenesters that mouthbrood they aren't that much bigger because the eggs still hatch after a couple of days. I found that the male just cares for them a little longer than with my straight up bubblenesters. 

Proper mouthbrooders hold for two weeks so the fry are a lot bigger. It is good because you can just go straight to BBS without worrying about anything else.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Well with the bubblenesters that mouthbrood they aren't that much bigger because the eggs still hatch after a couple of days. I found that the male just cares for them a little longer than with my straight up bubblenesters.
> 
> Proper mouthbrooders hold for two weeks so the fry are a lot bigger. It is good because you can just go straight to BBS without worrying about anything else.


Thats true im trying to get some macrostomas later


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I remember you saying about the macrostoma. My mum wants another pair so she is going to get some once the renovations are done and I have a proper area for my fish downstairs. 

They are beautiful fish and have a lot of personality.


----------



## Wildbetta

My bubblenesters hold 3 weeks or just a little less, normally 17 days to 21 days. That has been the same with all 3 species I have gotten fry from. They easily take all forms of BBS (live, frozen, and decap) from day one which does make it easier.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

You mean your mouthbrooders, not your bubblenesters? 

I think my albis, channoides strohi and unimaculata held for around 2-3 weeks. I always feel sorry for the mouthbrooders. They always look so pitiful when they are holding.


----------



## Wildbetta

LOL Did I type bubblenesters? Man I am so not with it this evening. Yeah by week 2 or so they get a tired "when will this end?" look to them. I make sure and keep them out of the main tank for a good week and feed twice a day after they release. That way they get nice a fed before the female starts buggin them to spawn again


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah my channoides female was always up for spawning. She once had two males holding at the same time. It was why I sold them, they were getting worse than guppies!


----------



## Catie79

I pulled out the submissive female in the trio from Setsuna so that the alpha female could have the male all to herself. He's set up camp in the hollow leg in the middle of the tank. That seemed confusing until I realized that it's a completely hollow log and with the top out of the water, there could quite possibly be a perfect nesting site inside. Dark, completely still, and completely surrounded. His lady is currently not welcome inside, but he does come out to visit with her.





































I don't know how anyone could see these females as drab. The downside to the possible nest in the log is that I will have no idea if something is going on in there. I probably won't know until there are free swimming fry if it's true. I don't want to move the log or raise the water level and risk destroying a nest. I could probably lower the water level to make it visible through the hole if I get too worried.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

That is sounding promising Catie. But it seems though that they always want to build their nests in the one spot you can't keep eyes on them! 

My captive-bred burdigala male was out today courting his female. He is a very hard fish to get a good photo of as he moves around heaps and since he is always having epic battles with his female and daughter his fins aren't as nice as they used to be.


----------



## Setsuna

My Wild Smaragdina pair 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxpyruVg1FA


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Stupid male brownorum ate/let his female eat all the eggs again. Next time I see eggs in that canister I am going to kick his butt out and move it over to a separate container and see if I can't at least hatch a couple eggs out. 





































At least they are healthy and happy I suppose.


----------



## Catie79

It's official, the male thinks he's a stud. I rather agree.



















But for the life of me, I can't figure out what they're up to. The female still looks like a zebra, so I figured they hadn't bred yet. He's really focused on that log, coming out for food or when the female gets too close only. There are several entrances and I saw the female swim in one, only to come rocket out a couple seconds later with the male hot on her tail. I'd love to know if he's built anything in there! I ran my water change as usual today, hopefully I didn't wreck anything.


----------



## Setsuna

he looks great ^^ turn off the lights and shine a flash light on him you will see him as a gem


----------



## Setsuna

Wild Betta Stiktos from Cambodia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN-QiaG-bY


----------



## Catie79

Do you see what I see?










I pulled out the big log since the male was hiding in it constantly and the female just wasn't going to fit in there with him. Took that out, added some floating leaves, and gave everyone a good feed of bloodworms. When I came back from dinner, I found the big bubble nest and the two of them actively flirting. The female isn't entirely on board with him yet. She's colored up and flirting back, but her attention wanders off. Hopefully they'll be more focused now. Everytime she wanders off, the male gets back to work on that nest. She's not swooning? Clearly the nest needs to be bigger!

He's so cute.


----------



## Setsuna

Anyone know where i can get a pair of palangkaraya betta? Seller needs to be from oversea


----------



## Setsuna

Catie79 said:


> Do you see what I see?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled out the big log since the male was hiding in it constantly and the female just wasn't going to fit in there with him. Took that out, added some floating leaves, and gave everyone a good feed of bloodworms. When I came back from dinner, I found the big bubble nest and the two of them actively flirting. The female isn't entirely on board with him yet. She's colored up and flirting back, but her attention wanders off. Hopefully they'll be more focused now. Everytime she wanders off, the male gets back to work on that nest. She's not swooning? Clearly the nest needs to be bigger!
> 
> He's so cute.


That is super!! I bet your excited ^^


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Setsuna said:


> Anyone know where i can get a pair of palangkaraya betta? Seller needs to be from oversea


I know palangkaraya are sometimes sold under the name 'palangkarensis' because I have a pair of them and that is what they were sold as. 

However, not sure where you would find them overseas. I haven't ever seen them really advertised on AB or anywhere else. Maybe try AquaticQuotient. I know that site has a section for bettas and it is comprised of mostly overseas members. One of the members for sure has palangkaraya. 

Wetspot in America is coming up with some in stock. Not sure if you wanted to take that route. Pairs are easy to identify with this species. Unlike others of this complex so they may be able to source you a pair. 

Green Neon Betta	Betta palangkarensis WILD	1,25"	$16.00	FEW


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> I know palangkaraya are sometimes sold under the name 'palangkarensis' because I have a pair of them and that is what they were sold as.
> 
> However, not sure where you would find them overseas. I haven't ever seen them really advertised on AB or anywhere else. Maybe try AquaticQuotient. I know that site has a section for bettas and it is comprised of mostly overseas members. One of the members for sure has palangkaraya.
> 
> Wetspot in America is coming up with some in stock. Not sure if you wanted to take that route. Pairs are easy to identify with this species. Unlike others of this complex so they may be able to source you a pair.
> 
> Green Neon Betta Betta palangkarensis WILD 1,25" $16.00 FEW


i have already found a pair


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Cool. Are they for you? They are nice species. The colouring on the males is really awesome.

They are also really really prolific.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Cool. Are they for you? They are nice species. The colouring on the males is really awesome.
> 
> They are also really really prolific.


They are for my friend in Thailand. He always ships me rare and beautiful splendens species for free so i though i buy from a pair for him because hes crazy about those but he doesnt know where to get it from thats why you see me get beautiful splendens complex all the time lol ^^


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Ah. They are definitely gorgeous fish. It's good you have a contact like that though! I think a lot of wild betta keepers would be jealous.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Ah. They are definitely gorgeous fish. It's good you have a contact like that though! I think a lot of wild betta keepers would be jealous.


hahaha i think so too


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Stirred a few of my fish up with a mirror today. These are all juveniles bred by me. Have so many male burdigala I am going to have to sell a lot of them off. 


















My favourite. I think he has a couple of sisters in with him which would be good. 










I am seriously debating about tearing down my wild betta set-ups and getting them re-organised. Think I might keep everyone in buckets for a couple of days and get their tanks sorted. It's such a big job though. 

However, I hate how everything looks at the moment. I want a nice clean rack with flaps so I can hide all my equipment and lights. Plus velvet is still lurking in a couple of my tanks and I wish it would just die already. 

The trouble is I don't want to go too simple as then I never see anyone because they are all plastered to the sponge filter hiding from view.


----------



## Catie79

Eggs! I've got eggs! At least I think that's what the male's up to. he's working hard, moving these little white spheres back up to his bubble nest. He took one blood worm from me, but otherwise couldn't be bothered. He was far too busy. I thought he was just an obsessive nest builder until I saw he scoop something up from a leaf and spit it out at the nest.

So now I'm waiting, fingers crossed, so see if I get some wigglers! I'm leaving the female in place for now since she's leaving him alone and it would be hard to get her out without causing a ruckus. I'll move her out eventually to control spawning.


----------



## Catie79

Oh, question! How does one manage water changes with eggs in the tank? Of course they spawn on a Monday and I do water changes on Tuesdays. It's an established tank with a mess of pennywort to soak up ammonia, but I'm wondering if I should try to sneak in a change before they hatch or if it's better to wait it out.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well if the eggs and the male are contained somewhere they won't be disturbed, I usually just do my water changes as normal. I find a lot of males (even first time fathers) do not get too concerned by small water changes if they are used to your presence. 

In my experience, my wilds always seem a lot less skittish and defensive of the nest site than my splendens male was. They usually just sit there giving me the stink eye. 

I prefer to do water changes while they are eggs and then leave the water changes for a few days when they hatch and become free-swimming.


----------



## Setsuna

Dont do any water change it will be the end of them if you do the best thing is to wait till they are 1 month old theres nothing much you can do at this time. One sudden water change and they will die. Im gladyou have eggs already ^^


----------



## Catie79

And now there's tails! I thought he'd lost his eggs until I happened to see one of the fry start to move around only to get caught and put back in the nest. Then I refocused and saw all these little tails hanging down! I'm glad I managed to squeak in that water change yesterday since it looks like it will be awhile before I get to do another. I also lowered the water level a bit to help out the new father. He's doing a great job. I'm having to tempt him with blood worms right under his nose to get him to eat, he's just too busy working to bother with eating. 

I'm not getting a lot of work done today. I'm just sitting and watching him play doting daddy.


----------



## Catie79

Tails!










I'm surprised my camera could zoom in enough to see them. And here's the proud papa giving me the stink eye for staring at his brood for too long.


----------



## Setsuna

wild bettas has always been very easy to breed. good luck to you and your imbellis ^^


----------



## efg321

Congrats Catie...Looks like Setsuna's conditioning really paid off! Looks like you got the wild thing going on. Others may disagree but I do a survival of the fittest w/ fry in my "wild" setups. I also do water changes even if a small amount(sponge filter on siphon end) 20-30% every 3-4 days or so especially after heavy feeds of infusoria, micro worms etc. Good Luck and get back to work!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I am the same. I do 25% water changes every second day and if the fry aren't removed to a separate grow-out I just let whoever is in the tank survive. I have never had a water change kill newborn or newly free-swimming fry, I am just careful to pour the water at the opposite end of the tank. 

I find that fry are like cockroaches. For every one you see out and about in the parent tank, there are about ten that you don't haha.


----------



## efg321

I have a pair of guitar smaragdina that for the first month I never saw I thought they were dead haha. Very shy fish but I guess its the shy one you have to look out for! I think they bred 3 out of last 5 weeks. Never big spawns, he is an ok Dad. last week I caught him blowing two or three babies into a dime size nest in a driftwood overhang??? He just started a new nest dead center in front of tank again, (he might be early this week he is usually a Wednesday night whoppee kind of guy)


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I had a pair of burdigala in a 7 gallon tank. They bred a couple times. First time I moved the film canister and young fry over into a grow-out. Got over 20 of them. Then I found more fry in the tank so I decided to remove as many as I could, which totalled about 40. I noticed a couple of stragglers but wasn't really fussed about catching them. 

Now everyone is bigger it turns out that there are at least 20 juveniles/fry in the tank still. There are probably more, but haven't done an official count. 

The only good thing with these species is that when the juveniles start to colour up the parents usually stop spawning. This gives me at least some breathing space then between growing-out spawns. Plus they have nowhere near as many fry as the splendens complex bubblenesters.


----------



## Catie79

I already pulled the female so they wouldn't get any ideas about upping the total. This is my first attempt at growing out a spawn, so I don't need massive numbers. Right now there's pretty much no food going in the tank, I hand feed the male there's no wasted food, so I'm going to leave the water as is until the fry start getting fed. Then I'll probably start doing water changes. I'm definitely a survival of the fittest follower. They'll be staying with dad in his tank until they get big enough that space is an issue. I've been plotting long term and I think I'll end up keeping an imbellis community again and just plucking out chosen pairs to head to conditioning and spawning when I want a spawn.


----------



## Catie79

I feel like I'm spamming the thread, but oh well. Might be useful for someone else one day.

We're on day four since the eggs were spotted. We've hit free swimming! Or I assume that's why daddy's abandoned the nest and I'm now having to try to spot fry amongst the pennywort. I counted five, so I know they're still alive. They're now mostly horizontal but not really doing a lot. I believe tomorrow starts the infusoria stage. I've got snails, leaf litter, and a lot of pennywort, so I'm planning to leave them to their own devices for a couple more days. I've also been seeding the tank with mini scuds and daphnia for the adults to hunt, so hopefully there are some larvae for the fry in there as well.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Good luck with your fry Catie. There are probably a lot more that you can't see. Hopefully you get enough for your community plans. 

As an aside, did anyone see that B. palangkayara was actually officially described? It's now known as B. hendra and is an official member of the coccina complex (I don't know why people were convinced it should belong in the foerschi group it looks nothing like one). 

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/official-names-for-2-aquarium-fishes/

Good to know now that it is an 'official' species.


----------



## Catie79

Hey Setsuna, did any of your imbellis males mouthbrood? Because this one does! I was in counting fry and thinking numbers were a bit light. The male swam by and casually spat out about six fry. Then one more. I was flabbergasted, I don't remember any of the splendens complex mouthbrooding. He was eating well earlier today so he's obviously not doing it all the time. The fry seemed rather perplexed by the whole business.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

He may just be holding the fry in his mouth. Some of my males that don't mouthbrood are still very mouthy. Mouthbrooding refers to them actually incubating the eggs prior to hatching. If he built a nest and deposited the eggs in that, I would say he wasn't mouthbrooding.


----------



## efg321

I have a dad that I kept in till 3 weeks he was still herding the runts into a small nest. I was feeding bbs and he would gather them and blow into the nest as well.(not sure if he was feeding or OCD nesting was kicking in!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

My extremely naughty Betta palangkaraya/hendra pair. They have been hiding for a week or so now and popped out today to eat the BBS intended for the dozen or so fry in with them. 

I am hoping for three or four females and a male out of this pair. Sorry the pictures are so bad. They hate the camera flash and they are pretty skittish at the best of times in their current tank. 




























Female is obviously the really barred up one. She almost always looks like that.


----------



## Setsuna

Catie79 said:


> I feel like I'm spamming the thread, but oh well. Might be useful for someone else one day.
> 
> We're on day four since the eggs were spotted. We've hit free swimming! Or I assume that's why daddy's abandoned the nest and I'm now having to try to spot fry amongst the pennywort. I counted five, so I know they're still alive. They're now mostly horizontal but not really doing a lot. I believe tomorrow starts the infusoria stage. I've got snails, leaf litter, and a lot of pennywort, so I'm planning to leave them to their own devices for a couple more days. I've also been seeding the tank with mini scuds and daphnia for the adults to hunt, so hopefully there are some larvae for the fry in there as well.


please remove both the mom and dad and just leave the frys in the tank. the parents will eat the frys (some do) dont take a chance take them out its bets even thai breeders do it


----------



## Setsuna

Catie79 said:


> Hey Setsuna, did any of your imbellis males mouthbrood? Because this one does! I was in counting fry and thinking numbers were a bit light. The male swam by and casually spat out about six fry. Then one more. I was flabbergasted, I don't remember any of the splendens complex mouthbrooding. He was eating well earlier today so he's obviously not doing it all the time. The fry seemed rather perplexed by the whole business.


i dont think he was mouth brooding but more like gathering the frys back to the nest


----------



## LittleBettaFish

.... to save them as a snack for later haha


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Got some better pictures of my Betta 'hendra' pair. They have to be the least photo friendly of my species. Colouring is stunning though on both the male and female.





































Hope I get a more even spread of males/females out of all their offspring than with my other species.


----------



## Setsuna

i think my friend wanted one of those.

but yea my smaragdina pair just spawned theres lots of eggs


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah, I am pretty sure they are the previously named palangkaraya (or however you spell it) species. Really nice fish. 

Congrats on the smaragdina spawn. It blows my mind how many eggs/fry the splendens complex can have at one time haha. My pairs would be practicing abstinence if that is how many they had. 

I did just catch these two spawning. Unfortunately, where they are my camera can't focus to get photos of them wrapping. 










This was the best out of about 20 attempts.


----------



## Setsuna

these are nice after i keep looking at them lol im getting more interested into mouthbrooders i think i might have to colloect all of mouth brooders one day


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I got sick of mouthbrooders. It's boring when the male has to hold the eggs for several weeks and first-time fathers can take ages to learn how to hold. 

However, the fry are bigger I suppose so that is one plus. It's so weird watching them squirming around in their father's mouth when some of them have hatched but he is still holding them.


----------



## Setsuna

GOTTA CATCH"EM ALL....... GOTTA CATCH TH'EM ALL.......BETTAS! hahaha


----------



## Wildbetta

Congrats on the spawn Catie!!! How Exciting! 

It is awesome to see that the B. Hendra finally got recognition for where it needed to be. Very nice looking pair you have LBF. The colors are awesome!

I personally have not had too big of an issue with my mouthbrooding males having to learn to hold. Out of my 2 pairs of Albimarginata only one of the males had a learning curve for holding fry, the other one has held all but maybe 2 spawns to term. My simplex so far has taken to holding quite well his first two times as well. I think certain species might have issues (like Macrostoma) but so far mine have been very on top of things with learning to hold fry.

At the moment I am currently being over run with alibi and simplex fry. LOL Pretty funny actually. I will be receiving a trip of Betta Picta tomorrow and the male was holding when my friend sent them so I might have a holding male there as well.

At the moment I have decided to stick with the smaller mouthbrooders. I am in the process of trying to rehome my WC proven pair of Betta Midas since they are a bigger species and not what I want to continue with and the unimac juvies....I sold 4/7 on Aquabid (was going to keep a reverse trio for myself) and then had 2 suicide jump before I shipped the 4 to the buyer so I just went ahead and sent the buyer 5. So I no longer have any unimacs. One of these days I might get back into the larger mouthbrooders again but not right now.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah most of my males have been good fathers. My channoides male held while being chased around with a net and then moved to a different tank, and my rutilans male (he counts because he mouthbroods) held when I thought he had gotten out and I stripped down their entire tank haha. 

Only male I have had problems with is my strohi, but they were doing renovations in the room he was living in with lots of banging, movement and power tool usage so I think he got stressed and swallowed both times. I found a buyer for that pair though, so will only have my unimaculata once they get picked up. I don't particularly want unimaculata but they are my mum's, and the plan (for me) is that they will not be replaced when they pass.

It's such a space thing when you have the bigger mouthbrooders. Not only do you need a decent size tank to house the breeding pairs, but also even bigger tanks to grow their fry out. I much prefer my clarets. A 10 gallon tank is perfect for a group of these fish. 

I have a lot of B. hendra fry at the moment. The parents were really prolific but have since stopped since I took away their film canister and they have some bigger fry in with them. 

I put this photo in my journal as well, but I like how it just captures the true spirit of bettas. Squabbling over a pile of blackworms. Male is not happy (right) that female is guarding them.


----------



## Janan

Those eyes look FIERCE! lol


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah that pair are evil to each other. The female always ends up pretty torn and beaten after spawning but they heal up remarkably quick. Probably all the live foods I shovel into them.


----------



## efg321

Dont piss her off!

I put this photo in my journal as well, but I like how it just captures the true spirit of bettas. Squabbling over a pile of blackworms. Male is not happy (right) that female is guarding them. 








[/QUOTE]


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I think they spawned again not long after that photo was taken. But same result as always, female eats the eggs and male loses interest. Pathetic haha. 

Least they are happy and healthy though.


----------



## Setsuna

My Wild Betta Smaragdina fries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZpcrAKsYas


----------



## LittleBettaFish

How old are they? Been able to count them all properly yet? 

Also, I always like your little intro bit with the male displaying. Plus the music you choose is always very fitting!


----------



## efg321

LittleBettaFish said:


> Also, I always like your little intro bit with the male displaying. Plus the music you choose is always very fitting!



HERE, HERE! Bravo on videos!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I've been thinking of putting together some videos to capture my persephone males sparring or one of my pairs courting but I don't know how to increase the quality of the video on the camcorder I use. 

How do people get really nice higher quality videos? Mine do my fish no favours at all.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> How old are they? Been able to count them all properly yet?
> 
> Also, I always like your little intro bit with the male displaying. Plus the music you choose is always very fitting!


As of now i think they are 6 days old only also cant count them yet lol 

Thanks for liking my intro lol


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> I've been thinking of putting together some videos to capture my persephone males sparring or one of my pairs courting but I don't know how to increase the quality of the video on the camcorder I use.
> 
> How do people get really nice higher quality videos? Mine do my fish no favours at all.


Well some of my vidoes are recored using my iPhone5 and my DSLR Canon 60D with 18-200mm lense


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Good luck with your smaragdina fry. Nothing like all that feeding and water changing to look forward to!

Two hours later I finally finish all 13 tanks. I would be a lot quicker without my grow-outs. My persephone males are not thrilled with me, as I took out their film canisters to stop them fighting so much. 

I wish I had another rack in my room. I am seriously running out of space. I have several pairs I want to separate out, but just nowhere to put their tanks. 

I also can't believe some of the fish I've bred are two years old now. At least my wilds seem to have the longevity my splendens lacked.

I may just try and read the manual for the camcorder and see what I come up with.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Best video I could get of my B. burdigala juveniles/adults feeding. Watch it at 480p for the best quality. I need to find if there is some way I can get better quality when I upload but it is quite confusing to read some of the info on there. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn65bR2yyhE


----------



## Setsuna

pretty cool video ^^ first comment


----------



## Wildbetta

Awesome video!


----------



## Setsuna

what do you plan to do with all your fries just keep them? or you gonna sell them?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Is that directed at me? 

Well for my wild-caught burdigala pair, I want to keep two sibling pairs and sell the rest. Unfortunately, at this point it looks like nearly all the juveniles are males. 

My captive-bred burdigala pair have so far given me four females and one male so I am going to be keeping all of them. They probably have more fry in the tank I just can't see. 

I want to keep three females and a male from my B. hendra juveniles. The rest will be sold on.

My B. uberis I already have two female juveniles and two males, but since mum is not looking too well lately I want to see if I don't get a couple more females to keep as replacements.

I just don't want to make the mistake of selling all my pairs to make money and having no replacements for the parents should something bad happen.


----------



## Setsuna

thats kool


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Before I had to take tank apart to catch fish









After I had taken tank apart to catch fish 









Now all my odd species are finally in a tank of their own. Luckily I had a spare 10 gallon on hand to move them into. I was sick of the spare males bullying my rutilans. 

Now it's just a matter of putting all the leaf litter back in and waiting for the water to clear. Hopefully the five males don't fight too much in their new tank.


----------



## Setsuna

those are bad ass tanks setups


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. They sometimes stink though if I disturb the leaf litter or peat moss on the bottom. I do so love the smell of rotting vegetation in the morning haha. 

My bed is opposite my fish rack so it's nice to watch them all swimming about doing their fishy things in the morning and afternoon.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Thanks. They sometimes stink though if I disturb the leaf litter or peat moss on the bottom. I do so love the smell of rotting vegetation in the morning haha.
> 
> My bed is opposite my fish rack so it's nice to watch them all swimming about doing their fishy things in the morning and afternoon.


with i could have fish in my room too lol


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Mine are moving later this year. Mum said no fish on the new carpet. I will have to move them down into our rumpus, but she is getting a powder room area with a sink fitted out for me and buying a couple of racks that I am going to properly kit out so it's not so bad. 

Trying to talk her into letting me keep one tank upstairs. I was thinking maybe imbellis or smaragdina male in a 30x30x30cm tank on my bedside table. Have it all natural with some leaf litter and duckweed/hydrilla/frogbit etc.


----------



## Setsuna

go with imbellis they are much more beautiful


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I am leaning more towards an imbellis. I am going to have to import one because the quality of the ones I've seen in Australia are pretty ordinary. This will be in my fantasy future of course because right now I will have to busk on the street if I want more fish haha.


----------



## Setsuna

is there a transhipper in Australia? if so maybe i can get you a pure wild caught from my friends when your ready ^^
maybe something like this 
PURE BEAUTY! this alone KNOCKS OFF all the show bettas off the shelf lol 
Natures creation is the best of all


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah see it was your photos in the first place that made me like them. Most of the ones on Google are not that good. Stunning male. Is he a father or just one of your single ones?

We have to ship everything from Bangkok to get it to the main importer in Australia. So the wild bettas I purchased from Indonesia, had to be shipped to the shipper Preecha (I think that's his name) in Bangkok, and then they are shipped to Jodi-Lea who is the only real person that does individual imports from AB etc.

Then the fish spends 7 days in quarantine, before they get packed up and shipped a couple thousand kilometres to me in Melbourne. 

Luckily Jodi-Lea has the magic touch with bettas so out of more than 50 fish I've only had one DOA.

Also show splendens don't hold a flame to wild bettas. Some wilds are kind of blah, but there are others when they colour up that they almost don't seem real.


----------



## Setsuna

This guy was wild caught from the deep jungles of Malaysia. im breeding him soon with a female thats caught from the same place 

all my fishes are shipped from Bangkok, Thailand also


----------



## efg321

Imbellis are definitely more striking, BUT I have an infinite weakness for Smaragdina....Actually I have gained a new appreciation for wild splendens now that I have a couple pair Wild caught from Phitsanulok province. Like you all know once you go wild.......


----------



## Setsuna

speaking of smaragdinas i have young wild caught pair very good looking. wild caught smaragdinas are hard to obtain because they are only found in Northeastern Thailand and not everyone from Bangkok goes there. The only reason i got 1 pair was because my Thai friend went there on a Holiday and caught some and he sent 1 pair for free to me. Lucky me ^^


----------



## efg321

Wouldn't it be nice to travel, have a holiday vacation with family, and oh by the way scoop a couple fish to take home!


----------



## peachii

Wild bettas are so beautiful. The more i research and look at pictures. 

When we start to breed, I am firmly of the opinion we are going to only breed 100% wild. To help preserve and populate the best fish to be had.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I wish I had an official fish smuggler to get me the species I want. Livida, miniopinna, tussyae and coccina. I would have the whole complex then. Unfortunately, I think finding the first two is going to be near impossible. 

Got this photo of one of my uberis fry the other day 









I'm extremely bummed as I have five juveniles in with the parents, two are identifiable males, one is obviously female but there are also two others I thought were female.

Unfortunately now, one seems to be colouring up and sprouting! I wanted three females darn it. One for my separate wild-caught male and then two for the brothers.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> I wish I had an official fish smuggler to get me the species I want. Livida, miniopinna, tussyae and coccina. I would have the whole complex then. Unfortunately, I think finding the first two is going to be near impossible.
> 
> Got this photo of one of my uberis fry the other day
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm extremely bummed as I have five juveniles in with the parents, two are identifiable males, one is obviously female but there are also two others I thought were female.
> 
> Unfortunately now, one seems to be colouring up and sprouting! I wanted three females darn it. One for my separate wild-caught male and then two for the brothers.


looks great ^^


----------



## Setsuna

My shipment today that i just sent out


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Are they going to a member here? Looks like a pretty pro packing job. 

Haha I sent fish once interstate and never again. Buyer didn't want to spring for a heat pack in the middle of winter, and the post office wasn't updating their tracking info so it looked like they got stuck halfway between her place and mine. 

Then she never contacted me for days after they arrived so I thought everyone was DOA. Luckily they weren't.


----------



## Setsuna

No, not for a member on here (i think) but it was a member here and give my info out to the buyer to contact me
all my heat packs that i send out is free should i start charging for them? lol


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well at the time I had no job, and it is a 2km walk there and back to the post office (bus only comes like once every hour during the day) and I had only charged what the express satchel was worth because I had all the other materials.

Because they were a known member on another forum I told them they could pay me when the fish arrived. I literally had to bug them for a week or so after to cough up the money to pay me.

Some people lol


----------



## Setsuna

hahaha.... i always have my buyers pay first before i ship out that way theres no issue along the way 

but i wonder watever happen to babystarz


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah. Hopefully it's nothing bad. It is sometimes a worry when previously active members just suddenly stop posting. 

Same with Aus, the member who took in my B. strohi juveniles. Haven't seen a post from her or her daughter in ages.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha my B. hendra pair have decided that they like their new bare tank. The floating plants I had in there died from a lack of light so I threw them in the bin. Now the male and female are out all the time swimming around. 

I think they want their film canister back in but they are banned from having that in their tank.


----------



## Wildbetta

Love the fry pic LBF!! Although I do understand the disappointment when they sex out the opposite of what you want. Why won't you let the Hendra have their film canister? You know they want it so bad. LOL

Setsuna -- Love your current pics of the individuals of the Splenden complex that you have posted recently. They really show the beauty of the wild types that most people don't get to see even on the internet. 
My friend (who is the one getting the Maha females) is sooo excited to get them! I am just pleased to have found someone who I know has great wild bettas (and can get good quality wild bettas) for her since she was having such a hard time finding another female from a good source.
It is up to you on whether or not you charge for a heat pack. Some people just add it in the shipping charge without invoicing it separate and others make it an add on cost.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha I have tons of hendra fry growing out in a separate tank and the sneaky ones that managed to survive in with the parents. Before I moved them, they were spawning every few days it seemed. Luckily they do not have as many fry each spawn as splendens complex fish do. 

I am jealous that your friend was able to get females separately. I have a couple lonely bachelors who are waiting for Mrs Right.


----------



## Wildbetta

Ahh I see, I didn't think about them constantly spawning. That is where mouthbrooders are easier cause they can't spawn like that and constantly end up with fry. My WC B.Midas, they spawn weekly for a couple of weeks(same day of the week --Tuesday) before he finally holds a spawn to term. 

Yeah my friend, bought a pair from oversees and had them shipped in through a transhipper that actually ended up being a hassle. They got to her looking pretty thin but healthy. They then proceeded to spawn before she could get the second tank set up(she was planning on separate tanks until she wanted them to spawn). Not sure what happened to the female except she just wasted away afterwards. The male is doing great but I think she lost the fry because of a air conditioning issue with the area they were in. She was sooo very happy when I was able to get her another female.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Poor rutilans juveniles are covered in velvet. Some have rubbed their scales off trying to scratch.










Then I look up and their bloody dad in a separate tank was rubbing himself on a leaf. Even with my torch I couldn't see any signs of parasites, although his gills were redder than normal. Might just hit that tank with salt and high temperature for a week or so as I am hesitant to use strong medication on everyone. 

This velvet will be the death of me. Just when I think it has gone it rears its ugly head up again.


----------



## Wildbetta

My friend got her Maha females today. She is super pleased with them and the service she received from Setsuna. She will probably go through him for all of her wild bettas from now on. 

So sorry for the velvet problem LBF. It always makes me wonder when certain people get stuff that keeps coming back if it has something to do with the water. Like something with the water lets the parasite get a hold better or something.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Unfortunately, the species I keep according to quite a few people I have discussed it with, and from what I have read online, seem to just be extremely susceptible to velvet. Particularly when they are at the age my rutilans juveniles are where they get in their adult colouration. 

I also don't like using copper to treat it, as copper can be toxic in the really soft water I have. 

I did get rid of it fully after a month or so long battle with it, but it just seems to plague my grow-out tanks.


----------



## Setsuna

Wildbetta said:


> My friend got her Maha females today. She is super pleased with them and the service she received from Setsuna. She will probably go through him for all of her wild bettas from now on.
> 
> So sorry for the velvet problem LBF. It always makes me wonder when certain people get stuff that keeps coming back if it has something to do with the water. Like something with the water lets the parasite get a hold better or something.


I happy that she's happy ^^


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Unfortunately, the species I keep according to quite a few people I have discussed it with, and from what I have read online, seem to just be extremely susceptible to velvet. Particularly when they are at the age my rutilans juveniles are where they get in their adult colouration.
> 
> I also don't like using copper to treat it, as copper can be toxic in the really soft water I have.
> 
> I did get rid of it fully after a month or so long battle with it, but it just seems to plague my grow-out tanks.


speaking of disease i have a male siamorientalis here has like a white dot on his left cheek and one at the top of is left caudal tail im not sure what it is. have you guys come across this before?


----------



## efg321

I have a imbellis hybrid w/ the same trying salt and temp before going copper treatment! He also seemed to develop all types of various skin ailments...sliding away! darn!


----------



## Setsuna

maybe i should try salt too


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## Setsuna

So i started a fundraiser and i call it "Project 30" what im trying to do is to sell wild bettas and raise some one for a family member in Thailand. Please help out. Project 30 can be found on Facebook. I will have all 7 Slpenden Species available. Just ask me know you need or are looking for


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## Hallyx

I'd like to get an Imbellis...maybe a female. Just one, for a pet.

Setsuna, you only ship overnight out of consideration for the fish. I admire that. You ought to include heat/cold packs for the same reason. Raise your rate, if you have to. Anyone who wants one of your fish will understand.


----------



## Wildbetta

Here is some pics of my B. Picta that I got a little less than 2 weeks ago.


----------



## Setsuna

Hallyx said:


> I'd like to get an Imbellis...maybe a female. Just one, for a pet.
> 
> Setsuna, you only ship overnight out of consideration for the fish. I admire that. You ought to include heat/cold packs for the same reason. Raise your rate, if you have to. Anyone who wants one of your fish will understand.


Yes, all the fish that i ship out is precious to me thats why i only like to ship express i feel that money is not worth a life even tho its just a little fish. All shipping supply's are free when shipping express. If you like a female or a pair for pet i can have it arranged just let me know


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Until I became a member of this forum, I always thought everyone shipped by overnight postage. I was surprised to hear some people were content to have their fish floating in the mail for several days. 

I always thought it's better to pay the extra money and get the fish ASAP rather than go for the cheaper option and have them endure the stresses of shipping for longer. 

Of course if the only option is the longer journey that is fine, but honestly why not choose express (what we call overnight here) when purchasing fish?

Also my B. uberis female looks like her head got run over by a lawn mower. She has a massive infection under the scales on her head and both eyes are swollen and protruding. Poor thing should have let me see her earlier so I could have treated it before it got to this point. 

Now she's in hospital and I am praying she heals up.


----------



## Wildbetta

I am on the other end of this discussion as I always choose priority. I haven't yet had any betta losses. I have only really had one or two times that a shipment has had issues and they were both around holidays and even then the fish were alive and well when they arrived. I have no problem with sellers deciding to only ship express as that is their choice and if I really wanted the fish that the seller had, I would gladly pay for express.

LBF -- sorry to hear about your female Uberis. Hopefully she heals up for ya.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I would be too freaked out to do priority. Some of the species I have, I waited a year or more to get my hands on so I want them coming from the store to my house ASAP haha. 

She seems to actually be doing alright. Looks like hell warmed up, but she is moving around more now and responding more to outside stimulus (before she was just sitting and breathing heavily on the bottom). 

I have two pictures of her on my site where she looks beautiful and I nearly bawled when I first saw her. Since she is one of my favourites, definitely going to fight for her to get better.

Also your B. picta look like fish my mum would like. One of them has nice blue on his anal fin though.


----------



## Wildbetta

They are a "sister" to the B. Simplex so both are small mouthbrooders of around 3 in. Haven't really gotten to see the male Picta show off his colors really yet so not sure if I think the Simplex is prettier or if the Picta is.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah my mum has a thing for grey mouthbrooding bettas. She also loves the larger species, and I am trying to talk her out of getting another pair of macrostoma as I can't be bothered with them. 

I am steering her towards a nice pair of stiktos (hopefully) as she also wanted a sorority and I said no. 

What does your entire set-up look like? I'm always interested in spying on people's fish 'rooms' haha.


----------



## Wildbetta

I will take some updated pics this evening and post them. I understand about wanting to spy.


----------



## Hallyx

Wildbetta said:


> They are a "sister" to the B. Simplex so both are small mouthbrooders of around 3 in.


Ahh...I wondered about that seeing his blue-edged anal and caudal. Very stylish animal, that.

I tuned in on a discussion (was it on here?) of longer vs. shorter delivery times. Some of the participants thought that a few extra days enroute caused the fish to be droopy and unresponsive, some did not ever get truly active. But that's just some peoples' observations/opinions online. I'm glad that your experience is positive, WB.


----------



## Wildbetta

Ok so here are some pics of my tanks. This will be a very pic heavy post. LOL

20G long: B. Picta tank. Right now it houses B. Midas(pair loose in the tank and fry in the breeder) as well until I send them to their new home and my deformed albino BN pleco.

FTS


Left side:




Middle


20G long: B. Albimarginata tank. Has 6 pepper corys, 2 hasbrous corys, 1 or 2 pygmaeous corys, and a L/F calico BN. (the smaller corys are planned to be moved eventually to one of my smaller tanks but that hasn't gotten fixed yet) Have a holding male in the breeder net.

FTS:


Left side:


Right side:


Middle:


20G long: B. Simplex tank. Has 4 panda corys, 2 bronze corys, 2 green dragon BN plecos, whiptail, and 3 khuli loaches. Male in HOT breeder for recoup from last spawn.

FTS:


Right side:


Left side:


Middle:


5G fry tank that is currently holding my older B. Albimarginata fry.


7G approx fry tank that currently holds B. Simplex and B. Albimarginta fry.


10G: Killifish tank. F. Gardneri (trio) and Orange Austrayle pair


10G: Bluefin killlifish, scarlet badis, and one black molly. Was originally my shrimp tank and will probably be again soon in the future.


My divided 5 gallon splenden tank, I do not have a current pic of since I am about to upgrade it to a 10 gallon here within the next week or so. I took in another male splenden that needed a home from a local CL ad so now I need a bigger tank for them. LOL


----------



## Setsuna

Great tanks and fishes


----------



## LittleBettaFish

So many big tanks. That is one of the reasons I never got into the bigger mouthbrooders. I would probably only be able to fit three tanks on my rack!

Do you find the colours of your wilds wash out under the lights? My wilds hate the light being put over their tank. You think I was aiming a death ray at their tank. 

I love your killifish tank. They are my favourite fish alongside wild bettas. I Never had much luck with them, but I was toying with the idea of getting another australe pair, and your picture is not helping!

Looks like you also get a few spawns out of your wilds. I think some of the mouthbrooders are seriously related to guppies haha. 


Do you have any pictures of your set-up Setsuna? I've always been curious about how you keep all your fish. Your tanks always look nice in the videos/photos I've seen.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> So many big tanks. That is one of the reasons I never got into the bigger mouthbrooders. I would probably only be able to fit three tanks on my rack!
> 
> Do you find the colours of your wilds wash out under the lights? My wilds hate the light being put over their tank. You think I was aiming a death ray at their tank.
> 
> I love your killifish tank. They are my favourite fish alongside wild bettas. I Never had much luck with them, but I was toying with the idea of getting another australe pair, and your picture is not helping!
> 
> Looks like you also get a few spawns out of your wilds. I think some of the mouthbrooders are seriously related to guppies haha.
> 
> 
> Do you have any pictures of your set-up Setsuna? I've always been curious about how you keep all your fish. Your tanks always look nice in the videos/photos I've seen.


i will try and post some later or tomorrow


----------



## Setsuna

Although people say that wild splendens are much peaceful and can be kept together from my personal experiences Yes, they are much more peaceful and more shy but you still cannot keep them together



theres more in my hallway going towards my bedroom but i didnt want to take those (got lazy)


----------



## Wildbetta

Nice set up Setsuna! Love all the little fry.  As far as keeping wilds together, I think it depends on the complex. The splenden complex seems to be the most aggressive as far true damage to each other is concerned. If I had any of that complex I would most definitely keep them separated. None of mine seem to really bother each other besides a little bit of dominance bickering or spawning nipping. 

LBF -- I am loving my killifish. Next to bettas they are now my favorite fish. So colorful and with very interesting behavior. 
To me 20G longs are not big tanks but I can see where you are coming from. I could logically keep my wilds that I have now in 10 gallons but that would mean giving up the other fish I keep in the tank with them. I try to keep surface cover plants on my wild tanks but it doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes they seem washed out and others they are very bright. They don't like me moving the light to really get good pics.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Lots of fry Setsuna, what species are they! 

Your males all look pretty feisty in their jars. You are lucky that you can get your hands on so many quality fish. 

Some of mine can be downright savage at times. I read somewhere that with my complex, a lower temperature can decrease aggression and I have found that in some cases it works.

I need to get an updated photo of my rack, but I really want to run some fluro tubes for the middle and bottom shelves as they are just too dark currently and I can never see my fish properly.

Also killies rule. I have a lone poliaki female here that I am trying to debate whether to sell or find a male for.


----------



## Setsuna

The frys are in the smaller tank. (5.5gal) i always breed in smaller tanks because my survival rates are always higher when i use smaller tanks then bigger tanks. Those are smaragdina frys


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I always rear my wild fry in smaller tanks (usually 3/4s filled 7 gallons) until they are showing adult shape and colouration, and then I usually move them into a 10-15 gallons once they are big enough. 

I have at least 20 juveniles of various sizes sharing a 7 gallon tank with their parents, and my betta hendra pair have at least a dozen fry in with them and their tank is only 6 gallons. 

I too seem to have better survival rates among my wild fry if a smaller tank is used.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Got some photos of my 'mystery' wild.



















Grew up nicely, but no idea what species he is. I think brownorum, but he doesn't have the spot (although not all my brownorum have them).


----------



## efg321

I have a few mystery females due to poor tagging AND wilds jumping!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well I had a tank full of rutilans 'green' that were growing out. I then added a single brownorum fry to this tank. 

Unfortunately, one day while doing a tank clean I thought I'd sucked up the brownorum and chucked it out on the garden. 

Then I noticed one of my 'rutilans' didn't look like the others. I separated it out from the juveniles and put it in with the adult rutilans to see if it would colour up properly. 

This is the colour it has stayed and it is now fully grown. Also it has outstripped all my rutilans greens in growth. They seem to take at least a year to reach full size, and mystery fish is already there. 

Did you have fish manage to hop from one tank to another? That's a pretty amazing feat.

I have this uneasy feeling that what I have been calling burdigala (and what were sold to me as burdigala) are in actual fact uberis, but can't prove/disprove it. Wish some species weren't so close in appearance!


----------



## Setsuna

those are some great pictures


----------



## LittleBettaFish

What mine? They were the best two out of about 20 blurry ones haha. It seems like with wilds just as you get the camera focused ready and the perfect shot lined up they swim off.


----------



## Setsuna

yea, especially my guitar smaragdinas one little move them they swim off


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha mine tolerate about two seconds of me blinding them with the flash on the camera and then they high-tail it. I usually have to bribe with food if I want them to sit in one spot.


----------



## efg321

I have a few olympic high jumpers making it over dividers!!!! Last male copper smaragdina jumped 2 and 1/2 inches to fight with next cell mate. shredded him in less than 30 min. not a scale out of place on the bruiser.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sound like you have some ferals on your hands Efg321 haha

Since I am cut up about one of my favourite wilds (uberis female) being really sick, I thought I would post some pictures of a few of her offspring. There are 20 more in a grow-out, but these ones live with their father in the tank. There are three males, one definite female and one I think is female but I rarely see.




































Very feisty female. She chases around her dad and her brothers all the time.









Youngest male just starting to show colour.


----------



## Setsuna

Thats Awesome makes me one a pair ^^ 

This is my new Hybrid. Its a Silver Mahachaiensis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhk_ln7rnGs&feature=youtu.be


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha I had to get the grindals out to bribe them. Otherwise my shot would have just been of some fish hiding in the leaves. 

He is very nice looking. Do you know what he is hybridised with?


----------



## Setsuna

Nope but he sure looks good as a hybrid though


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Is he just going to be a pet, or are you going to try and breed him?


----------



## efg321

Sound like you have some ferals on your hands Efg321 haha......Bruisers and jumpers!
I didnt lay a top on a net breeder now it is a playpen in and out of a sorority. My kids do a count every time they pass by. Kind of like the cop/dunkin donut game (how many bettas in the pen.) Out of nowhere they will shout 5,,,,0,,,,,3.................


----------



## Setsuna

Wild caught bettas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K-IjI_ncXQ


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Mmm they look good. 

I have to email the lady about when this June shipment is meant to be. I think she's gone to Aquarama until June 2nd though but I am hoping she is still checking her emails.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Mmm they look good.
> 
> I have to email the lady about when this June shipment is meant to be. I think she's gone to Aquarama until June 2nd though but I am hoping she is still checking her emails.


Did you see my stiktos? Hahaha


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yep. I so want a pair. They are definitely my favourite species from that complex now I have seen some proper photos/videos of them.


----------



## Setsuna

Wild caught Siamorientalis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M2MYhxODL4


----------



## LittleBettaFish

The tannins in the water really show off their colouring. Do you keep them carded like splendens males because they always seem really keen when you get videos of them. 

Got some dodgy photos of my rutilans juveniles. They had ich quite bad and I treated it, but I have noticed that there was still some signs of infection on the fins so going to be repeating the treatment Monday and hopefully killing it off for good. 

They are I think around 5 months old. But this species matures so slowly. It seems to take around 8 months to a year before they are full size.


----------



## Setsuna

yea, i keep them blocked off because ifs not healthy for them to see each other all day. 

i think those wild that you got look might good too im thinking about getting some of those but maybe after i move out that way i get more room for fish. because it seems like those fish needs more room then splendens


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I usually keep my pairs in tanks that are 5-10 gallons. They can be surprisingly aggressive towards each other at times so I like to give the female some space to get away. 

I want a pair out of these guys because their father mouthbroods and I want to see if it is a genetic trait rather than just environmental. 

Just came back from the aquarium where I got some blackworms and three really sweet looking pieces of goldvine to go in with my wilds. The males have been squabbling a bit so want to give them more hiding places until my females grow out more and I can sell off some pairs.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Uberis juveniles (nearly all male sadly) hunting grindals in the new moss I got them.




























Then here is the new wood I got. It's three separate pieces.


----------



## Setsuna

those look great. do you have much water movments or non at all?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

All the tanks have sponge filters in them. Because of the amount of leaf litter and organic matter in the tanks, if I don't have at least some water movement I tend to get a build-up of detritus on the glass and the water starts to smell a bit ripe. 

My males all spawn and rear fry with the sponge filter going. I only turn it off if the film canister keeps floating into the wall because of the current.


----------



## Setsuna

i see...

heres a video of my smaragdina frys up close http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL6A0xkEeQA&feature=youtu.be
also you know i think theres a new species of betta found in Indonesia they look all red not sure if im right or wrong 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL6A0xkEeQA&feature=youtu.be


----------



## LittleBettaFish

My God, it's like a tsunami of fry. Look at all that BBS in their bellies. 

I am forever finding fry in with my males and females. I am harsh on the 'free range' fry. They get normal water changes, no food but what they scrounge from the tank (although I usually do toss in the odd serving of BBS/grindals/MWs) until they get of a big enough size that they start eating with their parents. 

It's surprising how many fry start to crawl out of the woodwork once they get big enough and fast enough not to be lunch for their siblings.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> My God, it's like a tsunami of fry. Look at all that BBS in their bellies.
> 
> I am forever finding fry in with my males and females. I am harsh on the 'free range' fry. They get normal water changes, no food but what they scrounge from the tank (although I usually do toss in the odd serving of BBS/grindals/MWs) until they get of a big enough size that they start eating with their parents.
> 
> It's surprising how many fry start to crawl out of the woodwork once they get big enough and fast enough not to be lunch for their siblings.


Yes, thats one of the main reason why i use a smaller tank for breeding so that all the frys will get to eat and grow together so bigger ones wont eat smaller ones. because smaller tank means food is easy to find. With a big tank frys would be everywhere and food will be hard for them to find and some of them will just end up starving and die. This particular spawn i only see 5 dead so far


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I have also found that I get less deaths when growing out my fry in smaller tanks. However, I usually only have 20-50 in a 7 gallon tank, not as many as you seem to have there. 

Once saw one of my uberis juveniles waiting for all the newborn fry to leave the nest. Then it came along and ate down several of them before they could get away. Next time I saw some of the younger ones they were quick enough that the juvenile couldn't catch them and so they survived. 

I've found once they hit a certain age/size they stop hiding and come out a lot more. It seems to be when they are about 1/2 an inch to an inch in size.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

So excited. Female in this picture, has been following her father around the tank with him flaring and her extremely plump and barred up. Looks like I may see some spawning action soon from them. She's not very big, so will see what comes of it.


----------



## Setsuna

try too see if you can see them spawm and take some pictures


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I rarely get pictures of my pairs spawning. They are very secretive and either use their film canister right at the back of the tank or do it in a hollow log. 

Only one pair of mine lets me take photos while they are spawning. The father is really tolerant because I am always accidentally pouring all his eggs and fry out of the film canisters when I do water changes. 

I'm trying to determine whether this is a female or not. I am leaning towards it being female based on the colour and ventrals, but then again it could be an immature male.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Uberis fry are sprouting. Unfortunately they all look like they are going to turn out male! I hope I get a few females to pair up and sell otherwise I don't know how I am going to get rid of them all. 

They are so cute though. One has his full adult colouration including a little side spot even though it's only about 3/4s of an inch. 




























I would ideally like a rack specifically for my grow-outs and juvenile pairs being grown out for sale, but that's only really going to happen in my dreams at the moment haha.


----------



## Setsuna

that one looks very good


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah of course as soon as I get my camera out and turn the light on everyone hides in the moss and stripes up. They are on the bottom shelf of my rack so I think they get so used to seeing feet and legs rather than people's faces. 

Just spent a few hours sorting some of my tanks out. The leaf litter had broken down in a couple of tanks so had to replace that. Always nice and stinky. 

I added peat moss as substrate in one of my grow-outs with four juveniles and had to laugh, because the biggest male has coloured right up and is displaying for his two sisters.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Here's a couple photos of my hendra female. I don't know why she clamps up like that. I originally thought there was something wrong, but she spawned yesterday with my male and this morning she had all her fins unclamped and was in full colour. 




























I think it's because her juveniles have started to get bigger. With this group of species, I have noticed that if you keep the juveniles in with the parents, the parents become much more withdrawn and usually stop spawning. The same thing has happened with my original burdigala pair and my rutilans were the same. It's kind of odd.


----------



## Setsuna

thats a neat tank color and deco


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha thanks. They were supposed to be living in a 30cm cube to match the other tanks on that shelf but then they spawned (before this current one) and I wanted to wait until the fry were bigger so I could find them.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well the hendra nest got raided by all the juveniles in the tank. At least they got a good meal out of it. 

However, got some photos of my hendra juveniles in my separate grow-out. I think these are all hendra, although I might have accidentally shot pictures of my burdigala juveniles as well.























































These guys are probably smaller than they should be because I was rather neglectful of their care. However, since I upped the water changes and food I have noticed they seem to be picking up.


----------



## efg321

I noticed too late my smaragdina female was pretty eggy and sure enough the male was blowing babies into the duckweed. Yes the juvies in there all look pretty fat about now! That is one of the "what will be" kind of tanks we shall see!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I am just going to leave any fry born in my tanks now to their own devices. Only ones I would remove would be if I could manage to get a small clutch of brownorum eggs before the female eats them. 

I find usually the ones that will kill off newborn fry are cannibalistic older siblings. One of my rutilans juveniles would go and raid the nest as soon as the fry became free-swimming.


----------



## Hallyx

In the Aquabid "wild-type" section, who's this Glaswegian named Strathclyde, the importer/breeder from Scotland, with all the amazing, beautiful wild-types, many of which I've never heard of?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have seen their posts on AB currently and in the past, but I don't know who they are. I do have to say, their photograph of the rubra they used/took is not very flattering haha. 

In other news, I decided to cull out the 20 odd fry that had contracted quite severe ich. I simply didn't have the energy to deal with it, and I have more than enough replacements for that species in other tanks that I would rather just get rid of the infected fish than risk it spreading further. My other infected tanks seem to be on the road to recovery. 

This is the last time I am going to use grow-outs for my fry. I think it's better for them if I just leave them in the tank and only the strongest fry survive through to adulthood.


----------



## MattsBettas

Sorry you had to do that, LBF.

Just wanted to share an aquabid auction on macrostomas- 
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettas&1371262925

175$ is a lot but for eight macs not very much at all... And the seller is already in USA so no transhipping.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah looks like they are not sexed which is probably why they are cheaper. You have to take the risk in growing them out and seeing if you get any pairs.


----------



## MattsBettas

When you have eight though, the chances are very high that you will get at least one pair.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha don't be too sure. I saw a person on another forum who ended up with all females or males (one of the two) from a quite large group of fish. 

My mum wants a pair of macrostoma again but honestly I would be happy not to replace our original pair. I would hate if they spawned as I can't be bothered growing out fish that have the potential to get so big. It was bad enough with my unimaculata and they are midgets compared to the macrostoma.


----------



## Wildbetta

Actually I would think the unimaculatas would be bigger than the macs. My ocellata was a good bit bigger than my macs and a friend of mine has a big male mac who is smaller than her unimac females. I do understand the difference though in size from your coccina complex and the unimaculata complex. LOL Sorry to hear that you had to cull because of illness.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Nah all of the unimaculata I have owned, have always been smaller than the pair of macrostoma I had and other macrostoma I have seen in person. 

I don't think macs are the biggest from that complex, so your ocellata may have been bigger on on par with them in size. 

I think ideii is one of the biggest. My pair of ideii were like giants. They dwarfed my unimaculata _and_ my macrostoma. They were also savage. I had to keep the female separated for months before the male would tolerate her presence without trying to murder her.


----------



## Wildbetta

Done waterchanges yesterday and let my second male simplex out of his recuperation breeder box back into the main tank at the same time. Got a couple of nice shots of the two males squaring off for dominance. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=581g9ORvscc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYAVVYJTmk0

My nutso khuli loaches did some video bombing in the second video. LOL


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Nice videos. It's always amazing how much the wilds (particularly some of the 'blander' species) can colour up when they are fighting or spawning. 

My hendra/burdigala juveniles are doing miles better than they were. I think the daily water changes and me pushing the food into them has really helped. I don't see anyone flashing or scratching nowadays and they are starting to recognise me.

Most are quite small, but there are a handful that are nearly at a size enough to spawn. 









Hendra juvenile









Same juvenile as above









Burdigala, most likely male due to colouration









Burdigala, possible female from what I can see of the ventrals









Burdigala chasing what I think is a hendra









Burdigala, most probably male


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Big, chunky uberis male I bred who will be up for sale soon as I can figure out if his sibling is a female or not. Hoping she is so I can sell them as a breeding pair to someone. I am trying to see if they will court by putting a film canister in their tank. 










Don't know where I am going to put all my sub-adults and juveniles once they hit maturity. I think I need several more racks.


----------



## Setsuna

sell some


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## LittleBettaFish

I am going to, but the ones I think are female are still really small compared to their brothers and since no one really just wants males I am having to wait until they grow out more before I can sell any.


----------



## Setsuna

i see


----------



## Setsuna

Caught from the same day as these pictures 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feRe-CGgfdk


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Nice photos. I always love to see where these fish come from in the wild.

Looks like quite a decent sized male.


----------



## Setsuna

Siamorientalis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgWUy-Ucraw


----------



## Setsuna

Siamorientalis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aich8OboYc4


----------



## Setsuna

Bubble nest up close 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoILQcKv25M


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha I better not show that video to my wilds. Their bubblenests are pathetic compared to the ones your male builds. 

I was surprised to find last night that my unimaculata male may be holding eggs. I thought his daughter was still much too small/young to spawn with him but he wouldn't touch any of the food last night and he has quite a distended jaw. 









This is the female

Still not sure how I feel about it. Oh well, I will see if he holds to term and since they are my mum's 'fish', she can spring for the BBS and grow-out equipment.


----------



## Setsuna

was the male anywhere to be found? i want to see him


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## LittleBettaFish

This is the male (he is not photogenic in the least). He was wild-caught apparently. He is also about double the size of his daughter.


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## Setsuna

looks like a long body


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha yeah he is probably about 4 inches from head to tail.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well the trio of uberis I was planning on selling if I could determine whether one was female or not, gave me a surprise the other day. 

Turns out I did have a female as her and the biggest male spawned and now he is guarding a whole nest full of fry. 










He is being a good father. I saw him chasing his brother and sister away from the nest the other day and there is quite a number of fry in there. 

So selling has been postponed until the fry are a bit bigger.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Well the trio of uberis I was planning on selling if I could determine whether one was female or not, gave me a surprise the other day.
> 
> Turns out I did have a female as her and the biggest male spawned and now he is guarding a whole nest full of fry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is being a good father. I saw him chasing his brother and sister away from the nest the other day and there is quite a number of fry in there.
> 
> So selling has been postponed until the fry are a bit bigger.


so for this species the frys stays with the dad in the nest?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah. However, once they leave the nest the dad loses almost all interest in them unlike with splendens where the father seems to be a bit more protective and continues to watch out for them.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Dusted off the camera and snapped some shots of my burdigala tank. This tank houses two adult males (one is the son of the original pair) and two adult females (one is the daughter of the original pair). There are also several fry and juveniles of various ages swimming around. The two I have seen look male, and at the time I was taking these shots the father was guarding a nest. 


















Adult son









Original female









Juvenile male

They also have three sisters and one brother in another tank. Here is one of the full sisters.


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## Setsuna

*WILD BETTA GUITAR SMARAGDINA*



*SMARAGDINA *



*Wild Betta Imbellis *



*WILD BETTA SPLENDEN*



Wild Betta Mahachaiensis


----------



## MattsBettas

Awesome guide setsuna.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Great guides Setsuna. I linked to a couple of your other ones on another forum because someone thought that they had a pair of imbellis and yours are seriously the best guides I have seen in regards to determining the purity of splendens complex species. 

Speaking of splendens complex species, my stiktos pair have really settled in well. I let the female out of the breeders box yesterday for a bit of an explore and now the male is alternating his time between working on a quite pathetic bubblenest and showing off to her haha.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Great guides Setsuna. I linked to a couple of your other ones on another forum because someone thought that they had a pair of imbellis and yours are seriously the best guides I have seen in regards to determining the purity of splendens complex species.
> 
> Speaking of splendens complex species, my stiktos pair have really settled in well. I let the female out of the breeders box yesterday for a bit of an explore and now the male is alternating his time between working on a quite pathetic bubblenest and showing off to her haha.


Hahaha give him time im sure he'll make it better i have seen some big and some small but it still holds eggs inplace so you'll be good


----------



## Setsuna

MattsBettas said:


> Awesome guide setsuna.


Thanks matt. These was made by me because alot of people ask me how to tell species from species over and over again so i just had to make it. I think this will benefit alot of people


----------



## Setsuna

Copper Smaragdina 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxxlYZWi5uk


----------



## LittleBettaFish

They look really nice. You definitely have the touch when it comes to this complex.

My stiktos pair are doing really well. Male has built a massive nest under an IAL and the female is out of her breeders box currently barred right up and alternating between being chased and doing the chasing. 

The male is such an odd fish though. He likes to sit in a film canister I have floating around and yesterday it had floated up against the side of the glass so the entrance was blocked. So instead he just kept running into the back end of it trying to work out how come he couldn't get in. I had to turn it around and so he is happier now. He likes to sit in it and keep watch over his nest. 

I tried to get some photos yesterday, but of course they all swim off when they see my camera!


----------



## babystarz

Oh hey guys, fancy seeing you all here  My life has been crazy for the last 6 months, I won't bore you with the details, but I bought a condo and I'm moving on July 30th! It will be a crazy undertaking to figure out the fish situation.

I ended up with some major health issues for a while and paid someone to look after my fish. Someone who knows nothing about fish  Amazingly, after ~2 months without food, NONE of the ocellata babies died. They are severely undersized for their age, they should be adult sized and they barely look like juveniles. They are finally putting on some growth, but I'm afraid they've been stunted permanently and will never reach normal adult size. I feel so guilty for leaving them to someone who didn't take care of them at all  I love them dearly though, and aside from their size they are all extremely healthy and energetic. Even the runts have managed to thrive lately, and the size differences between the fish are becoming less apparent. Today I was finally able to move the biggest guy (I think he's a male) to the parent tank. The adults totally ignored him XD They're such gentle fish. I don't know if anyone is interested in tiny stunted fish, but they're old enough and healthy enough to ship now. I would only charge the price of shipping, nothing else. I'm really more concerned about them being taken care of than money. I have no idea how big they will get, so I would prefer that anyone who gets one plan for a fully sized adult, just in case that happens someday.

I have not raised another spawn, the males have had eggs a few times but I just didn't have the time/energy to take care of newborn fry so if any hatched they quickly died. Now that I have the condo, I'm planning to buy a 40 gallon breeder tank for the adults. They are fine in the 20 gallon long tank as they have never been apart from each other, but realistically 4 of these fish should have 10 gallons each to themselves. They need more space to explore.

I ended up giving away my albimarginata, smaragdina and imbellis when I realized what had happened with the fish sitter. I was worried that if something else came up, I would have too many fish to care for and didn't want to risk trusting someone else again. I have my male patoti still, I believe he killed the female while I was away. I do not think this is a particularly aggressive species, he's just a very territorial fish. He is clearly not suited to live with other fish, so I'm not sure what I will end up doing with him. He has a 20 gallon to himself right now so I might just set up a new one for him at the condo to live out his life in solitude.

I am really looking forward to getting back into the forums now that I have a normal full time job instead of two crazy 38 hour jobs. I'm even making more money now!


----------



## MattsBettas

How do you sex smaragdina?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Same sort of way you sex splendens. Females are usually a different shape, have smaller fins and less iridescence/colouring. It is harder if they are stressed out or young as then the differences are less obvious.


----------



## MattsBettas

The thing is, they are stressed out. I was in the lfs yesterday and their colours were all washed out.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha, thought as much. You would probably have to spend a bit of time watching them and see if you can't pick out any obvious males/females. I hate picking wilds from fish store tanks unless they are being housed in pairs or I don't really care what genders I end up with.


----------



## babystarz

It's almost impossible to tell when they're really stressed out, but amazing how obvious it becomes when they're colored up. The females do tend to be even more dull when washed out and have kind of a straighter, narrower body than the males do. 

What kind of fish store is it? Hopefully they'll work with you on this. And how much are they asking per fish?


----------



## MattsBettas

It's a decent fish store with fairly knowledgeable employees... They seem like they would help sex them but i never trust pet store workers. They are asking 8$ per fish. 

Even I could tell there were at least two obvious males... I just need to be able to get a female.


----------



## Setsuna

babystarz you missed out on alot lol you should go back and check out the pictures and videos.... at one point we was talking about you LMAO


----------



## babystarz

MattsBettas said:


> It's a decent fish store with fairly knowledgeable employees... They seem like they would help sex them but i never trust pet store workers. They are asking 8$ per fish.
> 
> Even I could tell there were at least two obvious males... I just need to be able to get a female.


At lest they're not gouging you on the price, I guess the best way to go is one of the obvious males, then try topick out the skinniest fish, as it'll probably be a female.



Setsuna said:


> babystarz you missed out on alot lol you should go back and check out the pictures and videos.... at one point we was talking about you LMAO


LOL I hope you were saying nice things XD I have caught up a little, it's so nice to see more people getting into breeding wilds


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Betta stiktos male. Thanks to Setsuna for putting me into contact with the seller. I tried to get some photos of him flaring but he refused to comply!


----------



## Setsuna

Hes bad ass Straight wild caught


LittleBettaFish said:


> Betta stiktos male. Thanks to Setsuna for putting me into contact with the seller. I tried to get some photos of him flaring but he refused to comply!


----------



## Setsuna

Smaragdina Juveniles Flaring 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DBOHOTXfvk


----------



## babystarz

Gorgeous stiktos  

I'm all moved. My adults are still in jars awaiting tank planting, which I plant to get done by tomorrow. The babies have always had no substrate so I just plopped them into their tank with all of the plants I saved. About 1/4 of the water is their old water. I only moved 10 blocks from where I was before so I'm pretty sure the water is exactly the same.

I had to dump 4 tanks so I lost all my snails. I'm trying to get some more. The MTS were such useful critters, I don't think I'd ever have a planted tank without them.

I've set up the tanks in front of a window so they get tons of natural light, I'll probably put one of my plant lights over the lower one because it gets a little less light. Hopefully I won't have algae problems.


----------



## babystarz

Has anyone kept betta pugnax? It looks like I might be getting a pair in a few weeks.


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

I'm just getting into Wild Bettas and I've looked all over for info and I couldn't find much, but that's until I found this thread, I think I learned more in 20 minutes here than I ever did for weeks browsing the internet


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Thanks for all the info everyone, but I still have lots of questions I want to ask!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Feel free to ask them. I have experience with a wide range of wilds and am more than willing to help. I'm sure the other members in this thread are the same.


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Hi there LittleBettaFish I appreciate that a lot :], I've read some of the previous post to catch up on the info and I notice you really do have a lot of cool looking wilds.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Not as many nowadays as I have sold quite a few since I want to focus on other fish. However, still have more than enough to keep me busy!


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Oh what fish are you trying to keep now?


----------



## Setsuna

SomeBettaGuy said:


> I'm just getting into Wild Bettas and I've looked all over for info and I couldn't find much, but that's until I found this thread, I think I learned more in 20 minutes here than I ever did for weeks browsing the internet


wat type do you have? or are looking for? Mouth brooders or Wild Splendens?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I'm getting back into keeping and breeding killifish now. Because of Australia's extreme import regulations the market is very limited here though. I need to stop being fond of fish species that are not commonly available! 

Like Setsuna asked, are you interested in any particular species of wilds? Some of the smaller mouthbrooders such as channoides and albimarginata are a great stepping stone as they are easy to maintain and extremely prolific.


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Well I'll tell you guys, but it's kind of long, I recently went to Vietnam to visit my family there and I went out to my uncle's farm, and one day some local kids invite me to go catch bettas with them. So I went along and using a basket I captured my own two bettas! A very beautiful male and female! At the time I was confuse because they look so different from bettas I've seen in the pet stores, but realized it's because they're wild! So I brought them back with me to the city and when I came back to the state my cousin said he'll try to ship them to me, I really don't understand shipping fish or anything so my cuz handled everything for me. So once I received them I set up a tank for them with a few plants (I also had a female normal splendens at the time), but I tried to identify them, after researching I was thinking they were imbellis, but wasn't convinced, so when I discovered about betta siamorientalis I finally found out what they were, but unfortunately lack of experience led to the death of my female. I kept my male siamorientalis with the female splenden because the male wasn't aggressive at all and I didn't think they would breed since they're different species, but to my surprised they bred! I was very unprepared and lost all of the fry's except 2 which I am raising right now! Sorry for such a long story.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yes, it's best to keep fish from the splendens complex separate as it is possible for them to hybridise (as you have since seen). A lot of wild betta 'purists' don't like hybrids, as they can be mislabelled as pure and you can end up with all sorts of issues if they get sold to someone as such. 

Setsuna is the guru on all things splendens complex. I have a pair of stiktos but they are just pets and so I don't do anything particularly special with them. 

Siamorientalis is a nice species and only recently described. It's a shame you lost the female.


----------



## Skyewillow

Super excited to get my Mahachaiensis in the morning. I had an issue with one of their tanks getting some weird slime bacteria growth going on, so I have 1.5 QT tanks ready to get them out of the mailbox, and that gives me a little wiggleroom to beat that tank into submission...

Babystarz, I have a boatload of MTS I'd be willing to share!


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Yeah I didn't plan on hybridizing, I like to keep all wild species pure too, I'm going to be careful with the two remaining fish I have, but I plan on getting some more wilds soon though.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Splendens seem to be the group that will hybridise the most readily. I have kept other species together from the coccina complex and they never interbred. I don't really know why. 

Are you planning on getting more of the same fish or branching out into something like mouthbrooders? 

The IBC species maintenance page on Facebook can put you in touch with a lot of owners/breeders just in case you were interested in sourcing stock.


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Oh yeah? I'll check the page out, but right now I'll stick to splendens complex since they are more familiar and comfortable to me, but I was looking at some betta coccina and betta pugnax and are really interested in those as well, do you have any betta coccina LBF or just fish from that complex?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have had Betta coccina in the past and nearly all of that entire complex. They are all quite similar care and breeding wise. One of the harder complexes out of all the wild betta species, but if you like a challenge they can be very rewarding.


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Yeah I was looking at some at this place called the Wet Spot, they offer a couple of wild types, there's a six pack imbellis deal that I will probably get, and they also have betta coccina for a pretty good price too! But as of right now I'm just growing out my 2 frys and looking forward to see how a siamorientalis and splendens hybrid is going to look like! Not entirely sure yet but it looks like there is one male and one female a little more than half an inch big.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

If you are looking at coccina complex species, just be aware they really do need very soft and acidic water to do best. The link in my signature contains a ton of information I have put together based on owning them.

Most wild species are quite adaptable. However, the coccina species are probably the most sensitive. 

It would be interesting to see how they turn out. It seems like you don't get a uniformed type between hybrid siblings. Wonder if yours will look similar once they mature.


----------



## Setsuna

i have all 7 wild splenden complex check out my youtube channel 

https://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U


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## SomeBettaGuy

Yeah LBF I'll keep all those info in mind when I ever decide to get some betta coccina.

Hey Setsuna took a look at your collection and it is amazing! I really like the mahachai! But the imbellis is amazing! My male siamorientalis looked just like yours, I sure do miss them.


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## SomeBettaGuy

I'm in the process of setting up a legit planted tank for my wild bettas, but this will probably take a while because of time and financial restraints haha. But in the meantime I'm fantasy drafting the fish I would have in this tank about 30-45 US gallon tank. I came upon 2 very cool peaceful fishes that I think would compliment wild bettas very well. The peacock goby and desert goby!


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## SomeBettaGuy

How do you delete things? or insert images from the google?


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## SomeBettaGuy

*Desert Goby*


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## SomeBettaGuy

Never mind haha


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## babystarz

One of my male ocellata is holding today  It's a little surprising considering they're still stuck in a 20gal with 10 juveniles (temporarily) but these guys really don't get stressed about space easily. One of the females is still very eggy so I won't be surprised if the other male is holding within the next few days too. I definitely need to get the other tanks done this weekend! And I need to order more bbs eggs and get that whole setup going. And some microworms, although my track record with them is terrible. I always forget to feed microworms between spawns lol.

Skyewillow, I might be interested in some of your MTS, I'll let you know!


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## babystarz

PS does anyone have experience with betta pugnax? I know they get big. How large a tank will I need to comfortably house 5-6? Would a 70 gallon work? Or should I split them into two 50's?


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## SomeBettaGuy

Hi there babystarz, I've read some of the past post and notice you're really good with betta ocelleta since they're breeding for you all the time!

Also I am considering getting fish from Wet Spot in the near future and want to hear from you since you have experience from there.


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## Wildbetta

Man it has been a while since I posted on here. I have dealt with some setbacks within the last couple of months but finally feel like I am back on track. 

Had the first outbreak of ICH in my simplex/midas fry tank which killed somewhere close to 100 fry after everything was said and done leaving me with about 25 fry that I did successfully grow out to juvies that recently went to a new home. :/ Very disappointing. Then my new batch of week old albi fry (in a totally separate tank) gets ICH. :/ Very annoying to say the least. Both times I treated with very high heat and salt which cleared it up quite quickly but I lost about 1/2 of the albi fry. Lost all my first batch of picta fry when I left them in the net breeder in the parent tank. No matter how much I fed, they just didn't seem to get enough to eat and they wasted away. I sent one of my female simplex to a friend since I had 2 pair and she had recently lost her female. I separated out one of my males since my remaining female starting acting extremely stressed after the other female was gone. Ended up losing that male for unknown causes. My remaining pair is still not completely back to normal and don't seem comfortable with each other. So not sure what I plan to do with them.

Good news is that after about a 2 month or so hiatus, my albis are back to spawning. I have about 50 fry some as old as a month old (ones that survived the ICH) and both males are on their second week of holding. I have a second batch of picta fry that are growing out in a separate growout and the male is releasing the next batch into the main tank right now. So I am getting another pair of betta ocellata - were the first wild I kept and glad to be getting another chance at them and really want to get some betta channoides or betta falx to work with as well.


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## babystarz

SomeBettaGuy said:


> Hi there babystarz, I've read some of the past post and notice you're really good with betta ocelleta since they're breeding for you all the time!
> 
> Also I am considering getting fish from Wet Spot in the near future and want to hear from you since you have experience from there.


Hey yes, I've really gotten into the mouthbrooding species. If you are interested in them, most of them are pretty beginner-friendly. Betta albimarginata or betta channoids are popular because they are small, you can keep a pair happy in a 10 gallon easily. If you do like the bigger varieties, betta ocellata or similar unimaculata complex fish are also easy to keep. All the species I've mentioned do well in a variety of water hardness conditions and they aren't quite as sensitive as some of the coccina complex species when it comes to hardness and pH. I have kept mine in natural planted tanks and bare glass bottom tanks, with lots of plants and leaf litter and they seem to thrive in all of those setups. As with all species of betta, they are prone to jumping when they get excited so it's very important to have a tight-fitting lid with any spaces covered up. And keep a pillowcase handy for anyone who jumps out during feeding time, that seems to be the most drama-free way I've found to scoop them up and put them back in the tank. I've never had any injuries happen to my wild species when they do this, and they don't do it very often. Generally it's brought on by them being really excited over special treats (bloodworms especially).

The Wetspot is fantastic, I highly reccommend them, they do an excellent job packaging their fish for shipping, better than 95% of the other people I've ordered from. They have excellent customer service too. Their fish are healthy and their experts know a lot about them. I've always dealt with Anthony in particular and he's just lovely. Their prices are reasonable but sometimes it's possible to get an even better deal from an individual hobbyist, so do shop around. 

I would definitely recommend getting at least an F1 generation, meaning the fish were born in captivity and are used to humans and eating pellets. My experiences with wild-caught fish have shown me that at least for the larger mouthbrooders, they are not for beginners. They are more easily spooked than their captive-bred counterparts.


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## SomeBettaGuy

Wildbetta said:


> Man it has been a while since I posted on here. I have dealt with some setbacks within the last couple of months but finally feel like I am back on track.
> 
> Had the first outbreak of ICH in my simplex/midas fry tank which killed somewhere close to 100 fry after everything was said and done leaving me with about 25 fry that I did successfully grow out to juvies that recently went to a new home. :/ Very disappointing. Then my new batch of week old albi fry (in a totally separate tank) gets ICH. :/ Very annoying to say the least. Both times I treated with very high heat and salt which cleared it up quite quickly but I lost about 1/2 of the albi fry. Lost all my first batch of picta fry when I left them in the net breeder in the parent tank. No matter how much I fed, they just didn't seem to get enough to eat and they wasted away. I sent one of my female simplex to a friend since I had 2 pair and she had recently lost her female. I separated out one of my males since my remaining female starting acting extremely stressed after the other female was gone. Ended up losing that male for unknown causes. My remaining pair is still not completely back to normal and don't seem comfortable with each other. So not sure what I plan to do with them.
> 
> Good news is that after about a 2 month or so hiatus, my albis are back to spawning. I have about 50 fry some as old as a month old (ones that survived the ICH) and both males are on their second week of holding. I have a second batch of picta fry that are growing out in a separate growout and the male is releasing the next batch into the main tank right now. So I am getting another pair of betta ocellata - were the first wild I kept and glad to be getting another chance at them and really want to get some betta channoides or betta falx to work with as well.


Wow sorry to hear about your recent problems with your wilds, but it sound like everything is getting back on track! I learned from a betta breeding farm that keeping the frys in with the parents for some reason helps prevent diseases, not sure why though.


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## LittleBettaFish

Ugh, I had to cull like 100 of my juveniles/sub-adults because of this resistant strain of ich that would not die. I tried every treatment I could and they were infected for months and finally I just made the decision to cull because they were becoming emaciated and getting open sores from scratching.

Bloody sucks to have something like that happen. It nearly put me off wilds permanently, but I have made the decision to continue keeping and breeding them. 

Hopefully your string of bad luck is over. Sometimes it feels like everything goes wrong all at once and it can be hard to battle through.


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## LittleBettaFish

Got some photos of my unimaculata tank now I added in my new moss. This isn't how it is going to stay, but I just wanted to give some cover to my male as I am pretty sure he is still holding. 



























Female bred and raised by me. 

Then here is my 60cm/2ft burdigala tank. All my burdigala now live in there. I moved them over yesterday and so the whole layout is just temporary. 




















This female and her male are my favourite. They are my original wild-caught pair and she is such a friendly and beautiful little fish. I think eventually they might get their own tank again.


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## SomeBettaGuy

LittleBettaFish said:


> Got some photos of my unimaculata tank now I added in my new moss. This isn't how it is going to stay, but I just wanted to give some cover to my male as I am pretty sure he is still holding.
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> Then here is my 60cm/2ft burdigala tank. All my burdigala now live in there. I moved them over yesterday and so the whole layout is just temporary.
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> This female and her male are my favourite. They are my original wild-caught pair and she is such a friendly and beautiful little fish. I think eventually they might get their own tank again.


 
You always take really good pictures of your fish I find that very impressive considering how wild bettas seem very skittish. Also I'm glad you didn't give up keeping wild bettas because you're probably one of the most knowledgeable people on keeping wilds!


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## LittleBettaFish

Well my unimaculata male stopped holding haha. He was eating white worms with his daughter this afternoon. I don't mind. As long as they are happy and healthy that's all that matters. 

My wilds are sort of used to me blinding them with the flash of my camera. Mine are all pretty tame since I have either reared them myself or had them for several months right up to a couple of years. Plus I always take photos after I have put some food in so they are too fat to get away. 

I now have two empty 30cm tanks. Hmm...thinking about what species I should get to fill them. Maybe hendra because I had to cull all my juveniles, or maybe standard rutilans because I only have a male of that species.


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## SomeBettaGuy

LittleBettaFish said:


> Well my unimaculata male stopped holding haha. He was eating white worms with his daughter this afternoon. I don't mind. As long as they are happy and healthy that's all that matters.
> 
> My wilds are sort of used to me blinding them with the flash of my camera. Mine are all pretty tame since I have either reared them myself or had them for several months right up to a couple of years. Plus I always take photos after I have put some food in so they are too fat to get away.
> 
> I now have two empty 30cm tanks. Hmm...thinking about what species I should get to fill them. Maybe hendra because I had to cull all my juveniles, or maybe standard rutilans because I only have a male of that species.


 
What do you think about keeping killifish in with wild bettas? I've read up some info and some killi's are pretty peaceful, and I was thinking of keeping in a planted tank. Very interested in the fundulopanchax gardneri killifish


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## LittleBettaFish

I probably wouldn't. My unimaculata pair were happy to live with my Chromaphyosemion poliaki female because she was very bland. But when I tried to put my male australe in just for a few days, they attacked him constantly so I had to remove him. 

My channoides/albimarginata were very docile, and I did keep the latter with clown killifish and some smaller natives without any sign of aggression.

However, bettas can be so unpredictable and killifish are so boisterous and colourful that it may either cause your wilds stress or cause them to attack. Gardneri are pretty full-on so you would need to find a species of wild betta that wouldn't mind some erratic tankmates.


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## SomeBettaGuy

Ha yeah, thanks for the advice LBF, but just the idea of two of the most colorful and interesting fish like bettas and killifish in the same just seems awesome! Do you think a heavy planted tank would help since the fish can all hide and explore? And would you said gardneri killi as more of a top layer fish and most wild bettas are mid to bottom most of the time?


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## babystarz

My less timid wilds actually do like to spend time up top. I think this idea will come down to finding individual fish that are very peaceful. LBF's unimaculata are the most similar species to my ocellata, but while hers don't like flashy tankmates, mine could hardly care less. They treat smaller fish with indifference as long as they're not being harrassed. But my patoti, who were from the same complex, couldn't get along with ANY other fish and my female was eventually killed by my male. After that I had to keep the male in his own tank, by himself. My point being that the species does not predict the personality. Fish that have always been kept with others in the past seem to do better with tankmates in my experience, and I will not try to put a fish that has been isolated before with tankmates because they just can't adapt. They aren't social enough anymore and they view other fish as a territorial threat, even if in nature they have a reputation for getting along well with others.

You'll need to be prepared to keep them in separate tanks if they don't get along. Also keep in mind that usually when a tankmate massacre happens, it's when you're not around.


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## SomeBettaGuy

babystarz said:


> My less timid wilds actually do like to spend time up top. I think this idea will come down to finding individual fish that are very peaceful. LBF's unimaculata are the most similar species to my ocellata, but while hers don't like flashy tankmates, mine could hardly care less. They treat smaller fish with indifference as long as they're not being harrassed. But my patoti, who were from the same complex, couldn't get along with ANY other fish and my female was eventually killed by my male. After that I had to keep the male in his own tank, by himself. My point being that the species does not predict the personality. Fish that have always been kept with others in the past seem to do better with tankmates in my experience, and I will not try to put a fish that has been isolated before with tankmates because they just can't adapt. They aren't social enough anymore and they view other fish as a territorial threat, even if in nature they have a reputation for getting along well with others.
> 
> You'll need to be prepared to keep them in separate tanks if they don't get along. Also keep in mind that usually when a tankmate massacre happens, it's when you're not around.


 
Very good point babystarz each fish has their own personality and unpredictability, so assuming from a particular species would be unreliable. Yeah I notice that fish that are use to a large community will be more peaceful towards tank mates, I heard of betta splendens being able to be kept together if raised together since frys, granted they still chase and flare but nothing deadly. Same thing with males of wild bettas from the splendens complex, male imbellis from the same spawn can peacefully live together but once separated and jarred they become fighters and will fight any betta they see.


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## Setsuna

My Latest videos

Smaragdina http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMGTK_N9AHk

Siamorientalis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5Um37JFnl0


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## Skyewillow

My Mahachais! Sorry for the grainy quality, I am literally using my cell phone as extra lighting and a webcam for these photos, the flash really bothers the female.

Kafae (female)


Kheiyw (male)


He's still a little stripey, and he was also excited because he thought I had food.


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## SomeBettaGuy

What's the best pellet foods for wild betta? I know feeding live and frozen is good, but I don't want to feed that all the time because sometimes it is hard to get or is a little more expensive than regular fish food. Thanks


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## LittleBettaFish

I use New Life Spectrum pellets on my wilds (well those who take it anyway). Very small wilds get the Small Fish Formula .5mm and the larger fish such as my unimaculata get the Community Fish Formula, which is 1mm. 

I wish more of mine would take pellets. Feeding live/frozen does get expensive and it is so easy just to sprinkle some pellets in.


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## Skyewillow

My mahachais are both eating NLS now.


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## SomeBettaGuy

Yeah checked out NLS and it looks good, I just hope my betta aren't too use and enjoy the frozen and live foods so much that they won't accept pellets. I think the best way is to start bettas on pellet foods really young but that is difficult.


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## Skyewillow

I just kept offering them to my male, and I guess he got tired of spitting them out. lol


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## LittleBettaFish

My stiktos pair are trialling being in together without the breeder box. They seem alright with each other's presence and aside from some chasing the male doesn't seem too concerned about the female.

I have a whole heap of mayaca, hydrilla and Asian watergrass coming, so if he gets a bit rough I can provide plenty of cover. 

I know people that keep imbellis and smaragdina pairs together long-term so I want to do the same with my stiktos. If they spawn I will just let the fry self-cull and that way I find I get the toughest and healthiest fish surviving through to adulthood.


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## Skyewillow

That's pretty much my plan with the Mahachai. I'm going to throw together a 10-20 for them once we move and let them do their thing.


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## LittleBettaFish

Well mine have been sharing a 5 gallon tank with no issue for three or so days now. They were both out eating mosquito larvae yesterday and the male has a nice nest going in his film canister. 

I have found when it comes down to it, my male is a bit of a wuss haha.


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## Skyewillow

lol poor fella!


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## LittleBettaFish

He says, "Not so meek now!".


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## Skyewillow

LittleBettaFish said:


> He says, "Not so meek now!".


WOW!! What a heartbreaker!


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## LittleBettaFish

I wondered why he was sitting flaring at the film canister where his nest is. Turns out the female was in there and he obviously didn't have the nest ready for her. She's since been chased out and he is now hard at work getting everything back in order. 

They are a beautiful species. Wish the female would sit still long enough for me to photograph her though.


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## SomeBettaGuy

@Skyewillow, yeah basically I think wilds can adapt to any kind of food source when they are hungry enough, they'll eat pellets but they won't like it as much as live/frozen foods.

@LBF, wow that's a great pic you got of the male flaring! What species is that?


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## LittleBettaFish

He's a Betta stiktos.


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## Skyewillow

SomeBettaGuy said:


> @Skyewillow, yeah basically I think wilds can adapt to any kind of food source when they are hungry enough, they'll eat pellets but they won't like it as much as live/frozen foods.


he gets fed throughout the day, so unless you ask him, he's not starving. lol

LBF, I trick Kafae. I have an oldschool webcam kicking around here, I clip it to the cabinet in front of her tank, and since she's close to my fiance's desktop, I turn it on and watch her hang out on the computer screen, then I can get as many pictures as I want, and it doesn't bother her one bit!

Here's a photo of Kheiyw being magnificent:


and Kafae:


those were taken with the digital camera, obviously, it's one of the few I got without her swimming for cover from the flash.


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## LittleBettaFish

Your male is lovely. I was never really into this complex, but I think more species are definitely on the cards when I am back in a position to purchase them. 

Also I thought I would say that my stiktos pair were wrapping just a few minutes before. I am not going to bother them further so will have to see later today if I get any eggs.


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## Skyewillow

I -love- my mahachai! They're fantastic!!

And Yay for your Stiktos wrapping! That's awesome news!


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## LittleBettaFish

Yeah your mahachai male is really superb. Will have to add them to my already extensive list. Now I just need to find a bank to rob and I will be right.


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## Skyewillow

Just gave him the mirror and managed to get a few pics before my camera died lol.

I'll have to post those for you later.

I think Stikos are the next on my list, then maybe a mouthbrooder. I don't know which one though.


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## LittleBettaFish

Cameras always seem to have the best timing.


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## Skyewillow

no kidding -glares at camera-


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## Skyewillow

Kheiyw (male)

You can kind of see the artificial palm I made for him out of perlers lol.




Kafae (female)


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## LittleBettaFish

Great photos. Your female is definitely a lot bolder than mine. Mrs stiktos spends most of her time skulking. 

I love how readily the males of this complex flare. It takes a lot of effort to get my other males showing off like that.


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## Skyewillow

He pouted when I took that mirror away from him. lol


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## LittleBettaFish

Ugh, I can't tell if my male stiktos has eaten his eggs or just put them really high up in the nest so I can't see. 

When I spied in on him just now,he swam under his nest and starting looking like he was gathering something up in his mouth. I assume based on him sticking close to the nest that there must be eggs still in there. I wish they would hatch soon as then I would definitely be able to tell.


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## Skyewillow

I think they have the same turnover rate as the domestics, so they should be out by tomorrow. I could be wrong?


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## LittleBettaFish

I'm not sure. I think hatching time is also based on water temperature. 

I suppose I will just have to cross my fingers and hope to see some fry.


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## LittleBettaFish

Well I know I said he ate the eggs, but I realise that perhaps the fry had hatched and I couldn't see them, as my stiktos male has a small number of fry in a nest he managed to rebuild. 

Talk about a good father though considering I tipped him out of his film canister, tipped all the nest out and poked it a few times with my finger to see if I couldn't find any eggs. 

No wonder he was in a panic and not leaving the nest site.


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## Skyewillow

AWW!! Poor fella!!


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## LittleBettaFish

He was probably like "Hey mum come see my... OH MY GOD!!! NOOO!! WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU DOING YOU CRAZY WOMAN?!!"

The fry are so tiny. Going to try and catch mum so she can't gobble anyone up. I think the male should be alright to leave in with them as he isn't freaking out or anything.


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## Skyewillow

ROFL! keep me posted, please!


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## dramaqueen

I didn't realize so many members had wild bettas. This is a very useful and informative thread.


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## LittleBettaFish

I think more members have them now than when the thread was started. It is good to see them becoming more popular.

Hm, I can't tell if my stiktos female is trying to spawn with my male again or is thinking of eating the fry he is tending to. She was showing vertical barring and a prominent eggspot so I'm not really sure. It's just annoying she is so skittish because I can't separate her without disturbing the male and the nesting site.


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## LittleBettaFish

Stiktos male with his fry. He also has eggs in there as well as he spawned with the female today. 



















This male has fatherly instincts up the whazoo. Hope his very hard work pays off for him.


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## Wildbetta

Glad to see your stiktos being such a good daddy and cohabitating nicely so far. 

So far my bad luck streak has ended at least for the moment. So I feel like I am back on track. 
So since my last update, my two male albimarginatas released into a planted "empty" 10 gallon tank. This was the first time I have kept any fry in a tank that was not "bare" so it basically was a test to see how the fry fare. I put the males back in the main tank about 2 weeks ago when I added a new male. Making my numbers 3M/2F F1 betta alibmarginatas for my breeding group. At this moment, I have my dominant male holding for about a week or so. I recently separated him into a breeding box for him to relax from the other males until he releases. I am hoping to see some spawning action from one of the other males soon. 

Picta male has held another spawn since my last post and I just moved them to the growout tank the other day. I guess I have about 40 tiny fry right now. The last batch that he released in the main tank all got eaten which is not such a bad thing since it gave me a break for one spawn. That was just enough time to get the older picta juvies off to their new home which opened the growout up for the new fry. 

The simplex pair I had never really got comfortable with each other again. I sent them to a friend that has another pair to see if they would work out better being in a group setting again. 

I have gotten a pair of betta ocellata from my close friend which are siblings to the trio I had previously. They are very large but are like puppy dogs. LOVE these guys. The male was holding when my friend shipped him and he was still holding when I received him which was really cool. He proceeded to release a load of fry in the shipping bag while I was temp acclimating him to the tank. Once I separated them from him, I ended up with at the very least 120 fry. Was not expecting something like that. I put them in the 10 gallon that has the two spawns of albimarginata fry in there already (although I have only seen 2 at any given time). The male spawned again with the female within 3 days of being in the tank which he ended up swallowing. (thankfully LOL). He is currently holding for about a week now. I have put him in the breeding net at the moment to release when the time comes. The pair is bonded so the female is really ticked at me right now and gives me evil looks whenever I come to the tank. 

The last of my new news is I have acquired a juvie male betta simorum. Very interesting big bubblenester. He is my first bubblenester so this will be interesting once I get him a lady.

I will post some pics a bit later since I have made this post SO long already trying to get caught up.


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## Wildbetta

Ok so earlier I promised pics so I am going to pic/video spam for a little bit. 

Video of the Betta Ocellata tank
http://s1184.photobucket.com/user/npatten/media/MAH01074_zpsc1ed6f9f.mp4.html

Video of the Betta Albimarginata tank
http://youtu.be/4aZ4F-0c-is

Ocellata Fry
http://youtu.be/c4b-6cZkQ1s

Male Ocellata holding


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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

2 week old Ocellata fry


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Betta Simorum


Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

My dominant male albi and the newest male deciding who is boss


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My 3rd and smallest male albi


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Albi fry/juvies (never know when to change over)


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## Skyewillow

I so love the colors on your Albis!

I just bothered all of my FB friends with a huge post about Mahachai habitat destruction. ugh, somewhat depressing.


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## LittleBettaFish

Looks like your ocellata male has quite the mouthful. Funny you mention about your pair being bonded. My unimaculata pair seem very attached to each other. The female is like the male's shadow and I always see them together. Your ocellata needs to come give my unimaculata male lessons on how to be a good mouthbrooder. 










Here's my fish rack set-up as it currently stands. Top shelf houses my persephone, rutilans sp. cf. green and uberis. The second shelf houses my stiktos and spare males, and my bottom shelf houses my main burdigala group, my unimaculata and four more burdigala sub-adults. 

I am hoping to get a pair of hendra for one of the empty tanks on the second shelf and a pair/trio/group of something like coccina or brownorum for the other. 

I also want to get three 90cm lights to run over each shelf so I can grow more plants.

Also it's sad about the habitat destruction of many of these species. I believe my persephone are critically endangered and found in only a couple of localities. It's salt pans that have taken over much of the mahachai habitat isn't it?


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## Skyewillow

that, filling in the swamps for factories, guppies, and I can't remember the name of the plant that has invaded and is causing issues in that habitat.

I posted the status and image that went with it over on my journal.

I really like the persephone, I wonder how hard they are to hunt down over here...


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## LittleBettaFish

I know a woman called Amelia has persephone (she's on the IBC SMP Facebook page). She did sell a reverse trio so not sure if she still has any others for sale. Maybe just males. 

My persephone males are being very naughty and so I may have to sell a few on. Unfortunately it seems like no one ever has any interest in purchasing wilds unless you offer them a breeding pair.

I think one of their localities got a highway put through it.


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## Skyewillow

Can you PM the page link to me, please? I can't seem to find it.

that really sucks that they put a stupid highway through their habitat!!


----------



## babystarz

So I still don't have my betta pugnax yet. I had to craigslist deals for tanks fall through at the last minute. I finally got so frustrated with the whole thing, I ordered a custom made 90 gallon long tank XD The thing is going to be massive, fortunately I saved space for a tank that big in my bedroom when I was re-arranging the furniture (yes, my new bedroom is massive, I think the dimensions are 14' x 12'). Hopefully I can have it here and set up within 2 weeks. Also I don't have to mess around with figuring out if the pugs will be ok in a smaller tank. I'm really excited about keeping such a large fish species. I'm still looking for anyone who has firsthand experience with them. They are not one of the more popular species due to how large they can grow. But I think they're beautiful.

The ocellata males are both holding now. Last time was another false start, but this time one has been holding for 5 days. Usually they either swallow withing the first week or hold til the end, so we're in the "watch and wait" period. It has been rainy for several days which is good; my fish are very responsive to changes in the weather patterns and storms always initiate spawning and I also think more rain makes the males hold better. Something to do with mimicking the monsoon season, I think. Both females are looking slender again so the males are probably holding at least 20-30 eggs each. Of those, I expect at least 10 fry from each male to hatch. I'm probably underestimating. Fortunately I have the other double 20 long tank stand ready to be set up. I'm reserving one tank for the new fry, one tank for the juvies, and one tank for the adults. I'll have an additional tank free for juvies who start to get too big and need more space. After the last spawning experience, I am planning to move the males to the newborn tank right before they release so there will be no netting of tiny fry. It's just so stressful for the fish, and me, to do things that way. And my experience of accidentally crushing a fry last time still makes me feel guilty.

I have a brand new batch of brine shrimp eggs also. I will order some mircoworms if the males reach a week of holding.


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## LittleBettaFish

I have absolutely no experience with this complex, but do Betta pugnax actually get that big? Seriouslyfish is saying 7cm and the IBC page is saying 12cm total length which was only the size of my Betta ideii. 

Only the Wikipedia page seems to be giving a massive figure of 30cm total length. 

Just curious as I know Betta pi are a big-bodied fish even if the information on them suggests otherwise.


----------



## Wildbetta

LOL LBF this ocellata male has held quite a few times in the past. My friend actually has fry from the spawn before she sent him to me growing out. Supposedly this pair will spawn all the time but the male won't hold full term every time especially since the hoss of a female that is his mate will bug him to spawn again around the week time. They are in luv. LOL

Skye -- I simply love the colors of the albimarginata which is why they are one of my all time favorite wild to keep. I am working on a trade to get some channoides sometime hopefully by the end of the year since I love both of these unique species.

Babystars -- I have kept pugnax before. I kept a group of 11 from early juvie age until almost breeding age before I had to rehome the majority of the juvies since I did not have the space to keep them. My remaining pair I never did get a chance to breed them though before I lost them in a heater malfunction along with my mac pair and a single female ocellata. In my experience they were beautiful fish but bullies. They were probably the worst to pick on each other of all my mouthbrooding bettas. Since they do get so large and they are bullies I think a tank the size of the one you are going to have for them will be excellent. Any other fish put in with them should be able to defend itself accordingly. BN plecos are good. Otos and farowella "twig cats" are not considering how docile natured they are. Just like all wilds they are big jumpers and since they are large fish, they can jump quite a distance very easily.
Good luck with your ocellatas. I love that species! Be aware that the spawns can be quite large which I didn't know until this male released when I received him. The spawn gave me at least 120 fry. Kinda hope he doesn't have that many every time he spawns. LOL


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## LittleBettaFish

How big did yours get WildBetta? 30cm/12 inches seems pretty extreme for a wild betta.


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## Wildbetta

Betta pugnax tends to get around 6 inches so more like around 16cm


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## LittleBettaFish

Ah okay. That sounds like a more reasonable size. 

Haha I still will never understand the popularity of mouthbrooders. My unimaculata male annoys the hell out of me every single time he spawns. At least now I know he has some fry because I saw him spit one out yesterday when he tried to eat a pellet. His female has been bossing him around so she is going to get put in a time out box if she doesn't knock it off. 

At least with bubblenesters I don't have to wait days and days for them to disappoint me by eating the eggs and fry.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

... and my unimaculata male has swallowed his fry overnight. 

I heard some splashing around last night so I don't know if he freaked out or the female was stressing him out with her aggression. Now she's about 3/4s of his size she seems to have developed quite the dominant streak. He is such a docile male so I feel a bit sorry for him being so henpecked.


----------



## Skyewillow

aw, poor guy!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah was quite disappointed to say the least. Especially since this time I saw some a fry.

I think my uberis pair are going to spawn soon. I don't know what happens to the eggs/fry in that tank. They spawn quite frequently and I see eggs and fry and yet when I tore the tank down recently there was no other fish but those two.


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## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> How big did yours get WildBetta? 30cm/12 inches seems pretty extreme for a wild betta.


From what I've been reading, pugnax this size have only been found in the wild, and are probably very old after having lived in VERY large ponds for 10 years or so. They tend not to get this big in captivity, they usually top out at 6 inches. Possibly for the same reason goldfish grow massive in big ponds but not so large in tanks.

Sorry to hear about your unimacs, sounds like he was just about to release the fry  Females in this complex really can be jerks when they get in the mood to be. They are more territorial than the males (at least captive-bred males anyway). 

I have no idea where my other male ocellata is hiding. I haven't seen him for 3 days  The first one to start holding swam right up to say hi today to show off his puffy cheeks. It must be the slightly smaller male that I can't find, he is always more reserved and protective when holding. He takes his job very seriously.


----------



## babystarz

Wildbetta said:


> Babystars -- I have kept pugnax before. I kept a group of 11 from early juvie age until almost breeding age before I had to rehome the majority of the juvies since I did not have the space to keep them. My remaining pair I never did get a chance to breed them though before I lost them in a heater malfunction along with my mac pair and a single female ocellata. In my experience they were beautiful fish but bullies. They were probably the worst to pick on each other of all my mouthbrooding bettas. Since they do get so large and they are bullies I think a tank the size of the one you are going to have for them will be excellent. Any other fish put in with them should be able to defend itself accordingly. BN plecos are good. Otos and farowella "twig cats" are not considering how docile natured they are. Just like all wilds they are big jumpers and since they are large fish, they can jump quite a distance very easily.
> Good luck with your ocellatas. I love that species! Be aware that the spawns can be quite large which I didn't know until this male released when I received him. The spawn gave me at least 120 fry. Kinda hope he doesn't have that many every time he spawns. LOL


Thanks for the info! The batch of pugs I'm getting have lived together their whole lives, and the tank will be a heavily planted (well, eventually) NPT with lots of added hiding spots and nooks and crannies. So everyone should be able to escape and hide as needed. I do not plan to have any other fish species in the tank, I figure I'd rather not terrorize any poor tankmates. The seller warned me about them being jumpy when they get excited, but I'm used to rescuing jumpers. I've got that down to a science XD The tank will have its own hinged glass cover but I will be taping the back anywhere there's a space for cords coming out, that has worked well in the past.

And WOW to your ocellata spawn :shock: My males are still quite young (they will be a year old in December) so I think that's probably why I haven't had a huge spawn yet.


----------



## Wildbetta

Yeah that sounds like a great plan. LOL They did have some really cool personalities though so they are fun to watch even though they are bullies. 

I believe that the ocellatas I have are around 2 yr old which may be why they had such a large spawn. :/ 

How are your albis doing? Or do you still have them?


----------



## babystarz

Wildbetta said:


> Yeah that sounds like a great plan. LOL They did have some really cool personalities though so they are fun to watch even though they are bullies.
> 
> I believe that the ocellatas I have are around 2 yr old which may be why they had such a large spawn. :/
> 
> How are your albis doing? Or do you still have them?


Nope. One of the females died suddenly about 6 months after I got them and a little while after that I gave the remaining trio away to someone who doesn't care if they never breed. They all had a terrible habit of playing with/eating/abandoning eggs. Which is fine for some, but I found it frustrating. They were fun little fish though (a great intro to mouthbrooders) and I'd like to have more some day. Mine just had zero parenting instincts.


----------



## Wildbetta

Sad to hear that you had that experience with them. They have been my favorite of the small mouthbrooders so far. It does sound like you are having some success with my other favorite betta ocellata though which is great.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

It's irritating when fish seem to have no paternal/maternal instincts. Usually they are the fish you want to breed the most. I had a pair of brownorum and they were hopeless. Ended up selling them recently because they would spawn and then the female would eat the eggs, or the male would lose interest in guarding the nest and she would get in and eat them. 

I think my persephone are liking all the tannins in their water. I have been trying to make it especially dark to make them feel more comfortable.


----------



## babystarz

Wildbetta said:


> Sad to hear that you had that experience with them. They have been my favorite of the small mouthbrooders so far. It does sound like you are having some success with my other favorite betta ocellata though which is great.


Yeah, it was definitely disappointing at first. They were my first mouthbrooders, so for a while I thought maybe I was doing something wrong. Eventually I realized they were in fact spawning, they just didn't care for the eggs. I think it's possible they were all duds and the fish could tell. Either way, I think it was just bad luck. Otherwise they were super easy to keep happy and healthy.

I did finally spot my other male ocellata today. Still holding! I just filled the nursery tank with 5 inches of water. I'll move the males on Wednesday.


----------



## babystarz

LittleBettaFish said:


> It's irritating when fish seem to have no paternal/maternal instincts. Usually they are the fish you want to breed the most. I had a pair of brownorum and they were hopeless. Ended up selling them recently because they would spawn and then the female would eat the eggs, or the male would lose interest in guarding the nest and she would get in and eat them.
> 
> I think my persephone are liking all the tannins in their water. I have been trying to make it especially dark to make them feel more comfortable.


I do wonder if some fish just never manage to pass on their genes because they are inept parents. Maybe it's a good thing.

Your persephone are just lovely  How big do they get? They're on the smaller side, yes?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah, only like 1.5 inches. I prefer smaller fish haha Means I can fit more tanks on my rack. 

My brownorum were wild-caught so I wonder if that has anything to do with it. My unimaculata male is also wild-caught, although my burdigala pair were always really prolific.


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## Setsuna

Im getting macrostomas!!!!!!!!!!


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## LittleBettaFish

Great news Setsuna! Macrostoma are so personable. 

My stiktos pair have been doing really well. Got some fry I am raising alongside the parents.










I do have a question though, how do you distinguish stiktos from other species? Someone from the Australian Wild Betta Facebook page wanted to know and I wasn't really sure as they don't seem to have an actual species description.


----------



## Setsuna

I'll make a diagnostic for you ^^ give me a few days or so. Thats good you got frys!! you got purebloods!!!


LittleBettaFish said:


> Great news Setsuna! Macrostoma are so personable.
> 
> My stiktos pair have been doing really well. Got some fry I am raising alongside the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a question though, how do you distinguish stiktos from other species? Someone from the Australian Wild Betta Facebook page wanted to know and I wasn't really sure as they don't seem to have an actual species description.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

That would be great. 

They spawned before the first batch of fry even became free-swimming. The male is really gentle and doesn't mind his female sharing a tank with him. 

This is her here in breeding dress


----------



## Setsuna

shes's beautiful


LittleBettaFish said:


> That would be great.
> 
> They spawned before the first batch of fry even became free-swimming. The male is really gentle and doesn't mind his female sharing a tank with him.
> 
> This is her here in breeding dress


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah. I was surprised by how nice she colours up, as I always thought the splendens comples females rather drab in comparison to something like my coccina females. 

She is a little shy but slowly warming up to me. She doesn't bother the fry at all either which is good. I am aiming to get maybe 12 or so fry reared to adulthood from these first few spawns as I am rearing the fry naturally in the tank rather than in a traditional grow-out.


----------



## Skyewillow

as far as I know, we have one baby that keeps falling out of the nest, then swimming back up in. lol


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## Skyewillow

so I lied. I have a swarm of babies!!


----------



## Setsuna

NICE!!!!!!you'll notice that the frys wont fall into the ground unlike domestics. wild males seem to take much care of their frys


Skyewillow said:


> so I lied. I have a swarm of babies!!


----------



## Setsuna

I just bought this Pair!!!!
if i get a good amount of fry i'll do free give aways!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H6s8WRB8II


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## Wildbetta

Yay for Macrostoma!!  Glad to see you got some Setsuna. Are they wild caught or captive bred? Pretty male! 

Skye -- that is a nice amount of fry for a first spawn. Congrats!!

LBF -- your stiktos are very pretty fish and possibly one of the prettier of the splendens complex.

As for me....I have finally gotten a pair of pallifina. I am soo excited to get them as I have wanted them for a long time. They are still quite small but are very nicely colored.


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## babystarz

Wow so much exciting news this weekend!


----------



## Setsuna

I think they are Wild caught but im not 100% sure


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## Skyewillow

Setsuna said:


> NICE!!!!!!you'll notice that the frys wont fall into the ground unlike domestics. wild males seem to take much care of their frys


I love watching the babies swim back up into the nest when they fall, and the male is SUCH a good dad, and very patient too while I'm trying to take photos.

Even though they have a whole 10 to themselves, he's still super aggressive to my female, so I'm considering moving her out of the tank and reintroducing her once we move and I can pick them up something with a larger footprint so she can get away from him.


----------



## SomeBettaGuy

Setsuna said:


> I think they are Wild caught but im not 100% sure


 Whoa! Nice Setsuna! Those Macs do look wild caught and from Brunei by the looks of it, because the colors are very nice instead of the bland colors from other locals and captive breds. I wish you luck on breeding them because I heard they are hard, but you are a very experienced wild betta keeper and I wouldn't mind getting free macs if you breed a lot! :-D


----------



## Hallyx

Not sure whether to ask this here or in "diseases."

My Guitar smarigdina, my invisible fish of whom I have seen but fleeting glimpses in the last 6 months, showed up during a water change today and allowed me to be horrified at the condition of his back. It looks like someone removed the color off his back (1/16th in=1.5mm) either side of his dorsal center-line. From his head (including the tops of his eyes) all the way back to his dorsal fin. 

It's not bloody, scraped, scratched or ugly. Just as if someone had taken some fine sandpaper and rubbed it on his back removing the color. The rest of his fins, body, operculae, mouth, etc look just fine. I've looked everywhere in his tank for something he might have gotten under (or goes under regularly) that would rub on his back. The only thing I see in there to get under is his IAL. Everything else is smooth plastic or Anubias or terra cotta. 

I guess I'll finally get to use that Stresscoat I bought. But how will I tell it's working if I don't see him for another month or more?


----------



## Hallyx

Not sure whether to ask this here or in "diseases."

My Guitar smarigdina, my invisible fish of whom I have seen but fleeting glimpses in the last 6 months, showed up during a water change today and allowed me to be horrified at the condition of his back. It looks like someone removed the color off his back (1/16th in=1.5mm) either side of his dorsal center-line. From his head (including the tops of his eyes) all the way back to his dorsal fin. 

It's not bloody, scraped, scratched or ugly. Just as if someone had taken some fine sandpaper and rubbed it on his back removing the color. The rest of his fins, body, operculae, mouth, etc look just fine. I've looked everywhere in his tank for something he might have gotten under (or goes under regularly) that would rub on his back. The only thing I see in there to get under is his IAL. Everything else is smooth plastic or Anubias or terra cotta. 

There is no "salt" grain nor coppery dusting. And his behavior doesn't look stressed. How would I know what's normal; I never see him. Holding still so I can get a magnifier and some light on him is, in itself, a behavioral change. Not long enough to get a photo, alas.

I guess I'll finally get to use that Stresscoat I bought. But how will I tell it's working if I don't see him for another month or more?


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## Hallyx

Whoops, sorry. Would someone please remove post *#974*

Thank you.


----------



## Wildbetta

Sorry to hear about your smarigdina Hallyx. Hope things improve with him soon. 

My luck was going pretty good but then nosedived this morning. :/ 

In good news, my male ocellata seems to still be holding fry and should release sometime in the next few days (hopefully not anywhere near as many as before). I have a male albi who is close to releasing a new batch of fry and my male picta is yet again holding for about a week. 

The seller of my single male b.simorum has fry so I will be trading some b.picta for some more simorum sometime in the next few months which is awesome news. 

I am in the middle of a trade of a pair of juvie b. albimarginatas for some super red bn pleco fry which is exciting.

Now on to the nosediving. I got my b. pallifina pair in Friday. They were absolutely adorable just barely 3in total length but colored so nicely. Very shy species but they were beginning to come around and be more active. I found the female this morning crispy behind the tank.  Could not believe it when I found her. I was sure the tank was sealed completely. I found a small spot (less than an inch) where the back strip had somehow moved away from the tank rim which is where she jumped ship from. Really irritated since these are a hard to find species for me to get a hold of so finding a female is going to be a pain. My poor male is all lonely now since this pair had "paired" already and almost never left each others side.

Got to keep looking at all the good things.....it is what I keep telling myself everytime something like this happens. Otherwise...it would be hard to keep going on with the jumping wonders.


----------



## babystarz

Hallyx said:


> Not sure whether to ask this here or in "diseases."
> 
> My Guitar smarigdina, my invisible fish of whom I have seen but fleeting glimpses in the last 6 months, showed up during a water change today and allowed me to be horrified at the condition of his back. It looks like someone removed the color off his back (1/16th in=1.5mm) either side of his dorsal center-line. From his head (including the tops of his eyes) all the way back to his dorsal fin.
> 
> It's not bloody, scraped, scratched or ugly. Just as if someone had taken some fine sandpaper and rubbed it on his back removing the color. The rest of his fins, body, operculae, mouth, etc look just fine. I've looked everywhere in his tank for something he might have gotten under (or goes under regularly) that would rub on his back. The only thing I see in there to get under is his IAL. Everything else is smooth plastic or Anubias or terra cotta.
> 
> I guess I'll finally get to use that Stresscoat I bought. But how will I tell it's working if I don't see him for another month or more?


You might have to just chase him around with a net to get a good look at him. I would say do it at least once a week so you can tell if the area is growing or looks better over time. I'm as baffled as you are though. Did this area look fully healed? Were the borders distinct or patchy?

I'd definitely advise you to post in the Diseases area too, maybe there is someone who's seen similar symptoms in a splendens who can help figure out what is going on.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Hmm that is odd Hallyx. Are you sure it wasn't just an odd presentation of some sort of stress colouring? Sometimes when my wilds are stressed they can develop this line down their back from head to caudal completely devoid of colour. 

Hope it is nothing more sinister. 

I got this photo this morning of my new hendra male. He was glass surfing in sync with the massive rutilans male next door. You can see the caudal of the rutilans is nearly as big as he is!









This is their tank 









Then here is the brownorum pair's tank. 









I _may_ be getting a pair of undescribed coccina complex fish that are apparently the smallest of the wild bettas. However, there has been some confusion on the Australian Wild Betta FB page about whether or not these fish are actually a coccina complex species (even though seller and transhipper had posted they are) so I am going to contact the transhipper and verify with her before I pay as I don't want them if they aren't.


----------



## Wildbetta

Hopefully those undescribed are indeed a coccina complex member LBF.

Seems like the male ocellata was playing with me and wasn't holding. :/ Saw him yawn really big this afternoon and I offered bloodworms and he engulfed them. So I put him back in with his lady. They will be spawning by tomorrow if not as soon as tonight. 

Male albi released some fry today which is always cool.  Now I have to figure out where the best place for them would be.

Picta is still holding strong and I expect fry from him next week. 

Put the simorum and pallifina male in the same 20 gallon long which seems to be going ok so far. Neither one of them seems to even notice the other is in there.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah I cleared it up with the transhipper yesterday, and based on the video she kindly took, they are. I paid for them and I believe they will getting sent out to me at the start of next week (she is down in my state this weekend for a big IBC show). 

Pity about your ocellata. Sometimes I can't tell if my unimaculata male is holding or not as his behaviour and appearance don't really change at all. 

Did you lose your simorum/pallifina females or did you not have any to begin with? I house a group of mixed species (coccina complex so not particularly docile) males together and they rarely fight. Most of it seems more psychological than actually physical.


----------



## Wildbetta

I have one young male simorum who I bought by himself with the knowledge that the seller is going to let me have a deal on some unsexed juvies out of the next spawn. The pallifina male is the one I lost his female.  They were both in a 20 gallon long that I had divided to keep the simorum on his own side cause he had been very nippy with the picta pair I had in there previously. He had shown some nippy behavior with the pallifina male when one of them jumped the divider a day after I got the pallifina so I wasn't sure how they would get along in a tank together. When I moved the ocellata up to the living room tank, I moved both the single males into the tank the ocellata had been in. Adding them at the same time seemed to diffuse any nippy behavior which has worked so far.


----------



## babystarz

*YESSSS!! *After 4 days of continuously stalking my male ocellata, I finally got my shy one in his breeding net. Thank goodness! They're both ready to pop any day now. The one in the net is very pouty now but I managed to do it without him swallowing. I hope I can get the other one in his net too, just because the tank is very full of water and catching fry will be a nightmare. I ended up removing all the juveniles to their own tank and just have the 4 adults in the spawning tank. I was going to move the two adult males but it's been so difficult to just get one in his net I didn't want to risk running out of time, and I know the adults won't eat fry (whereas the juveniles very well might).

Still waiting on my microworms, they better be here tomorrow or I'm in trouble! I think I'm going to get the bbs hatchery up and running just in case. I prefer to wait a week before feeding bbs but I think these fry will be pretty well developed given their long gestation so I should be able to get away with feeding them bbs right away if the microworms are late.

I'm really proud of one of the juvenile males, he's put on at least an inch in the last month. Some of the others are finally growing too.

I have no idea what to do for a tank stand for the 90 gallon. I think I need to go to a consignment store or estate sales this weekend to see if there is an old table that will work. Or a chest of drawers, that would be lovely! The nice thing about having a 100 year old house is there's plenty of gorgeous antique furniture around for cheap if you know where to look.


----------



## Setsuna

My New Imbellis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfmRw7d9h9I


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Wow that colour is so bright it almost looks photoshopped!

I forgot to ask, how did your pond you were working on a while back go? Get any spawns?


----------



## babystarz

After realizing my tank is going to weigh over 800 pounds, I decided I couldn't buy an old table. If I don't know how it was made, I don't know if it'll be able to handle the weight. I ended up ordering a custom-made reinforced bookcase. It was $400 for an unfinished, completely unadorned bookcase :shock: And it won't be ready until a month after the tank arrives, plus I will have to stain it. That is going to be interesting, as November in Minnesota can be freezing and snowy, so I likely won't be able to do it outside. I have already spent $1000 on this tank and I haven't even started thinking about lights, plants, substrate, or anything else that will go inside it. This thing had better turn out to be a masterpiece. The fish will have to live somewhere else for at least a month because there's no way I can fill the tank with water before it's on the bookcase.


----------



## bettaakapes

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bettaakapes

Any chance you have betta Fusca?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBettaFish

My unimaculata male is holding a massive mouthful of eggs. I hope he swallows as I am quite content with the number of fry I have now. Maybe I'll just wait until they are sleeping and then come over and shake their tank haha


















His naughty paramour


----------



## babystarz

Shy male released his fry yesterday! See if you can spot any in the fry net:










I accidentally let him out of the fry net early so there are some fry in the main tank, I managed to nab about 4 of them. There are around 20 in the net I think. 

Something very interesting happened as soon as he was finished, he colored up like I've never seen! He was so happy to be eating, he was practically glowing. I snapped several pics on my camera, I'll try to get them uploaded soon.

Still waiting on the other male, I never did get him in a net. He has decided the upside down herb planter is his spot and he doesn't rest anywhere else. Oh well. hopefully I'm around to net the fry when it happens - I caught my shy female munching on a newborn yesterday, which is weird because in the past the females have been good with the fry. They were both really antsy yesterday though. I had to isolate the dominant female because I realized my shy guy wasn't releasing fry very often because the girls kept swimming over and bothering him. As soon as I got her corralled, he spat out all the remaining babies within 5 minutes.

LBF did your male just start holding? That _is_ a lot of eggs :shock:


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Um that was him a day or so after spawning. Yeah the female was just huge. I was concerned she was going to end up egg-bound if they didn't spawn. She is not a very big female (she is still growing) and she was looking more blimp than fish. 

Congrats on the fry. I guess if I had been holding eggs in my mouth all that time and watching everyone else eat I would be relieved to be eating as well haha

My male is weird when he is holding. He never hides and is basically at full colour as he cruises around the tank with his female in tow. I think she made him spit the previous batch of fry out early because she wanted to spawn again so I have to watch she doesn't bother him.


----------



## Wildbetta

Well it didn't take long for my ocellata to spawn again. LOL Got some nice pics of him the day he spawned. He has a big ole mouthful like your unimac boy LBF. 



Also got a good shot of his big ole lady 



Oh and today I caught her flirting with him a bit so here in a couple of days if he is still holding I plan on moving him into the net breeder so she will leave him be.




My picta male released today after I put him in the breeder box. I would not be surprised if he had spit some in the tank before I caught him too. I moved him to the breeder in the middle of doing water changes on the fry tanks because I seen his woman nipping at his mouth. Don't want her to eat the fry as he spits them out. :/ 




Oh and a good pic of the Simorum


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Hmm.. not hard to see what type of wilds you favour Wildbetta. Your poor ocellata male looks like he has his mouth full with that amount of eggs. 

The picta are a sort of odd looking betta. I always feel sorry for the mouthbrooding males when they go to all that effort to hold and the females come and eat all the fry as soon as they are released. 

I was feeding some grindals to my hendra male and managed to get a couple nice photos out of it. 



















They got their first water change the other day and seem to be quite content with their current set-up. Unfortunately, I had to use straight tap cut with some home-made IAL tea, but today I am planning on getting my water aging tub filled up so I am then using water with comparable softness and pH to what is in the tanks.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well my undescribed coccina complex pair are on their way. Got an email from Jodi-Lea saying they had been shipped. I'm both excited and worried. I wish I lived close enough to her store to pick up my fish but the nearly 2000km between my house and her store make that a bit difficult.


----------



## Setsuna

Nice Hendra! i might get some in the future too but i want to steal yours MOUAHAHAHA lol. Make a 3 min video please!!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha I am too attached to my pair to ever let anyone steal them. The male is super friendly and always flaring at his neighbour or begging me to feed him. 

I can't do videos. I have this camcorder thing my dad lent me but most of the videos I take on it are pretty crappy. 

Anyway, here is the male and female together. Just to tease you.


----------



## Setsuna

okay at least tell me where did you buy it from or who did you buy it from please


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I got the pair from a seller called JotyBetta. But Hermanus Haryanto also had pairs available I believe.


----------



## Setsuna

My newest video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nQUEU2rxxE


----------



## babystarz

The pugnax arrived! They really are large! Everyone is doing well, 2 are males and I think the other 4 are females. The last male jumped when he saw he was going to be put in a bag like the others, so he's still with the seller resting after that adventure.

They are each in 2 gallon buckets (well, one is in a 3 gal Kritter Keeper). The storage container I bought just for them until their tank is ready leaked overnight/all day (yay! I have hardwood floors!) and had lost 1/3 of its water by the time I saw what was happening. 

They get really excited about jumping so I duct taped saran wrap over the bucket tops. Tomorrow I'm going to Petco to buy them a tank to live in until I can put them in the 90 gallon. I think I'll probably just get one of those tank/stand combos. I can use it as a fry grow-out when I move the pugs.


----------



## Setsuna

thats great news ^^


----------



## Setsuna

This is tank is going to be housing my macrostomas when i get them 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv7JSaRfL4I


----------



## babystarz

Setsuna, that is a beautiful tank! Were you dosing with ferts before the CO2 system was set up? How much does a paintball CO2 canister cost, and how often does it need to be replaced?

I headed over to Petsmart on my lunch break and bought a 40 gallon breeder. I have no idea where to put it, I have no stand. I'm hoping I can find a used TV console or something tonight. Otherwise I have all the supplies I need already.


----------



## Setsuna

Yea, i had the ADA soil first then slowly add new plants as i went along. Then i decided to add a CO2 system. the CO2 tank/bottle cost me 30 at walmart to fill it cost me 5 dollars as for how long it will last me im not sure yet because this is my first time using it so i'll let you know when it runs out im guessing maybe one month or so only because i have a 20gal tank and i run the CO2 day and night. 

So wat are you planning to do with your 40? make it a planted community?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I am so happy. My new hendra pair are spawning! I thought they needed more cover and just got some java fern today and I come home and they are in their film canister with a bunch of eggs. 

Of course the female sees me and comes rushing out thinking she is getting fed and then realises she is in the middle of something and goes back to the male.


----------



## Setsuna

PICTURES!!!!!!!!! you know im going crazy for hendras lol but i want to wait for another tank so i can setup a bare bottom tank for them also i dont think people in USA buys hendras much


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well I don't want to disturb them while they are spawning just because it is the male's first time. 

However, this was the most recent set of photos I got of the pair the other day.





































I don't know why this species isn't more popular over there as it is so beautiful. I have noticed some sellers still call them palangkaraya rather than hendra. 

Also my stiktos pair are spawning AGAIN. They have no shame those two. Right up front, stop to eat and say hello and then they just get right back into it. 

I have no idea how many fry I actually have from this pair. I only think maybe a handful of older ones. I do have a lot of ones from their previous spawn swimming around but the numbers usually start to dwindle as I don't raise them out of tank.


----------



## Setsuna

Yea, i knew them as Betta palangkaraya first also i think its because they are found and caught from that location of Indonesia thats why 

anyways...........im so jealous


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Haha. A little 'green' with envy  

Yeah I am assuming like most of the undescribed species, they were originally named for their locality. 

I have a possible new species of coccina complex wild known as Betta sp. apiapi by the seller that I am keeping and which I have bred. Be really cool if it does turn out to be a new species and not just a variation/different locality of an existing one. I think it might be based on its appearance but it takes them so long to recognise species. 

There is still that sp. wajok floating around that looks very similar to rutilans sp. cf. green that has never been described.


----------



## MattsBettas

I was just going to ask about he wajok lol... What's going on with them?


----------



## Setsuna

i think theres a few out there. my thai friend shows me a few but i dont know the names. theres one that looks like Betta Rubras too looks exactly like them but its not it


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Is that Betta dennisyongi or another one? 

It's sad to think with all the habitat destruction going on some species may have gone extinct without anyone even knowing. 

This is my Betta sp. apiapi. Apparently smallest betta species with an adult size of an inch. It looks very similar to rutilans but without any iridescence on the body and the male has a spade shaped caudal. 










Cost me $200 for the pair but worth every penny as they are so nice. I think I am the only one in Australia keeping them although the transhipper has ordered a couple more pairs in from the seller.


----------



## MattsBettas

> Cost me $200 for the pair


Why I don't have any wilds...


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Lol they aren't all that expensive. My hendra pair were only $70. This was because they are a possible new species and most likely not that widespread in the hobby. 

It's also not that bad when you consider a pair of HM splendens from Jodi-Lea can set you back $100 or more.


----------



## MattsBettas

Yea nice splendens are a lot cheaper here then in Australia, but like we've talked about before the Americans still have it easiest. Wilds are still pretty pricy here though, once you add up the fish, the transhipping, and (most of all) the shipping. 

Now that I think about it wilds aren't that much more expensive then splendens if I imported them, but anything I import will still cost quite a bit.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah same here. I really want a pair of wild-caught rutilans Jodi-Lea has but they are $80 plus $22 shipping. My mum was so great to pay for the apiapi pair in return for me biking/walking the dogs but I think October is still too early for an 'ahead of time' Christmas present haha. 

Shame too as I finally have space for a pair.


----------



## Setsuna

Matt join the club and get some wilds. To me they are 10X better then Domestics


----------



## MattsBettas

Oh don't worry, I most certainly will when I can afford them, have room for them, and the right species is available. 

I want some channoides.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I still think there is nothing nicer than watching a family of wild bettas living together peacefully (or as peacefully as bettas can live), and seeing the fry grow to adulthood alongside their parents. 

My stiktos pair are so docile. They rarely even nip each other's fins and the female is allowed to come right up to the male while he has a nest full of eggs/fry. It's amazing how wildly the individual temperament of these fish can vary.


----------



## Setsuna

yea, stiktos are pretty peaceful


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I never thought I would like them as much as I did but I always say hello to the male at least a couple of times a day. He seems to enjoy having some human interaction. Either that or he is distracting me from his bubblenest so I don't destroy it like I usually do. 

I think they spawned today while there were still fry in the nest as when I did a small water change a few fry with yolk sacs came bobbing out. I really need to get into hatching BBS daily for the fry in there as I have been really slack.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Here is my male being grumpy because the brownorum female in the tank next to his keeps aggravating him. You can sort of make out the blurry brown fry in the nest. If you look real close and squint.


----------



## Setsuna

looks super nice


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Thanks. He is pretty low maintenance. I just feed him once or twice a day, give him a daily flare with the mirror and do a 20% water change every 3-4 days and he seems content. 

Hmm my brownorum pair are chasing each other around fully coloured up and the female was showing some barring. I so hope they spawn. This species seems to be one of the hardest in this complex to get a successful spawn from and I sold my last pair because I could never get them to spawn.


----------



## babystarz

Setsuna said:


> Yea, i had the ADA soil first then slowly add new plants as i went along. Then i decided to add a CO2 system. the CO2 tank/bottle cost me 30 at walmart to fill it cost me 5 dollars as for how long it will last me im not sure yet because this is my first time using it so i'll let you know when it runs out im guessing maybe one month or so only because i have a 20gal tank and i run the CO2 day and night.
> 
> So wat are you planning to do with your 40? make it a planted community?


Haha, good question! When I bought it I had no plans beyond my immediate need to house the pugs for a couple of months. I will be making it an NPT but as far as what it will be after the pugs are moved, I'm not totally sure yet. I might give channoides a try. I could keep a pretty big community of them in a 40. Or maybe I will reserve the tank as a fry grow-out only. Some of my ocellata juveniles are getting big enough that I might have to split them again. They are doing very well in the blackwater/leaf litter environment I made for them.


----------



## Setsuna

Any new fishes? POST POST POST!!!


----------



## Catie79

I'll contribute, since I'm bored at work.

It's not new fish, Setsuna should recognize them, but I got video of the imbellis crew hunting scuds yesterday.

http://youtu.be/XdlCfePWLd0

My imbellis spawn is looking awesome, about 20 fat little fries staring at me right now, wanting to know when their next meal is.


----------



## Setsuna

OMG!!!! you got a spawn that big already? Im jealous haha


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Congrats on the imbellis spawn! I am lazy with my stiktos and I think I have like one fat fry in there from the dozen or so spawns they have done. 

I have had lots of spawning happening here. The one I was most excited about was when my pair of brownorum gave me some fry. I really struggled with this species (seems I am not the only one) and was so relieved when after a year and the sale of my previous pair and purchase of another, I got a spawn. 

It also helps that they are incredibly stunning fish.


----------



## Setsuna

Yea, that looks really good. why are you getting the fishes i that i want! lol beautiful ones too!!!


----------



## Catie79

It's because I have such sturdy stock, Setsuna! Also, I think the pair managed to spawn twice in one nest. I didn't see eggs at all, then one day he moved the nest and there were wigglers. So it's probably two spawns of ten.

I also want your fish, LBF. It's going to be rough when I try to expand my wild collection, it's hard to find anything other than unsexed fish at an arm and a leg a piece.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Wilds aren't cheap here either. It was $70 for that brownorum pair plus $20 shipping, and if I want to import a pair in, it can work out even more expensive than purchasing from Jodi-Lea direct. 

It sucks because I lost my uberis and burdigala pairs and it is going to cost nearly $200 to replace them.


----------



## Setsuna

I think i will have new Imbellis soon. i will show you guys after i get them. i saw a video of them already but not as clear


----------



## LittleBettaFish

How many of the pairs that you get in do you keep? Also, how did your outside pond you set-up ages ago work out? Any spawning?

Got a photo of one of my biggest Betta sp. apiapi fry today. I'm hoping I can finally end my streak of bad luck with velvet.


----------



## Setsuna

nice little baby fish ^^

my pond is okay i guess....its getting cold here so im moving them into my garage that way i can put a heater in there. this time im getting 2 pairs of imbellis i think im keeping them both for breeding


----------



## Wildbetta

Recently got some great pics of my 2 male albimarginatas sparring. Normally the bigger dominant male just colors back up after being put back in the main tank after his week of recuperation from holding fry but this time the smaller male (who is not that much smaller anymore) decided to try for the role of "top fish". He didn't win but still put up a heck of a battle. 







Also got a good pic of my pallifina male all colored up. I will be looking to get a female for him come spring. 



Can't wait to start breeding them as they are my favorite so far. 

My betta picta pair are doing great and have adapted very well to me adding 6 juvie betta edithae to their tank. 



My newest acquisition in the wild betta world are the betta edithae juvies. They are nice little fish. Starting to color up nicely for me. I know for sure that I have one male. The others I am still a bit unsure of. 

When I first got them:


Some shots from last night:





For sure male:


My betta simorum has got to be the biggest piggy I have ever come across. He will eat so much that he looks like he has swallowed a marble and then still eat on the veggie sticks added to the tank for the otos. 



I recently lost my male ocellata which saddens me to no end. He jumped out of a breeder box while holding fry. He was a couple of days late on releasing them and I think he was freaked out by the new male BN pleco I added to the tank and was trying to get somewhere else to release them. I found him while he was still moist and active so I put him back in the breeder box. He immediately spat a huge mouthful of fry. 70% of which were not alive unfortunately. I managed to save about 40 fry and they are doing very well in the growout. He lasted for about another day before he just gave up and passed away.  My female was depressed for a day or two before I put the pallifina male in the tank with her so she would have another fish in the tank with her besides the corys and plecos. I should be getting another adult male ocellata within the next week so she should be doing better by then. The fry from the previous big spawn will be 3 months old this coming Thursday. They are doing excellent and growing amazingly fast. Here are some recent pics of them.


----------



## MattsBettas

Wildbetta, those are some great shots of some beautiful fish.


----------



## Hallyx

+1^ You sure know your way around a camera, WB.

I've only seem pictures, so what are the main differences between pallifina an ocellata. They look almost the same on my screen.


----------



## Setsuna

Here is my latest Imbellis. i just got him today. hes the guy in the case the one on the outside is the siamorientalis 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWGv7AmqlRk


----------



## Setsuna

These are my new Imbellis 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRyk0zok1Co


----------



## MNWILDBETTA

Here are a couple pics of my male albis with eggs in their mouth trying to spar.


----------



## MNWILDBETTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-vr9U1DAGM


That is a link to the video of them sparring.


----------



## Setsuna

MNWILDBETTA said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-vr9U1DAGM
> 
> 
> That is a link to the video of them sparring.


look good...i like it


----------



## Catie79

I'm getting betta miniopinna! I'm so excited. I wanted to see if some of you guys with more experience with the coccina complex had a recommendation for how to keep them: in a group or in pairs? I can have three 5 gallon tanks, or one bigger tank to house the group. I'm mostly worried about what would make them more comfortable/interested in breeding.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I am getting miniopinna from Hermanus too. If you want these fish to spawn you want to keep them in pairs only. I get little to no spawning activity in my group tanks.


----------



## Catie79

Awesome, that's exactly what I needed to know. Not surprising, considering how my imbellis act in the group set up, but I'd heard some accounts of active breeding in a group. I'll set up 5 gallon tanks and keep them in pairs. 

I figured they were for you when he mentioned 2 pair going to Australia.


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## LittleBettaFish

I'm not getting both pairs, only one. I'm not sure who is getting the other pair. Apparently mine are coming on the next shipment to Oz which means I should hopefully be getting them at the end of January. 

A 5 gallon tank should be fine for a pair, just watch for any aggression between the males and females. Some fish from this complex can be particularly violent and so it's something to be mindful of when keeping them. 

Not sure if you've ever owned coccina complex species before, but to get the best colour out of these species you want extremely tannin stained water with a dark substrate. I've found light substrates, clear water etc. the fish will only show good colouration when spawning. However, if you keep them I suggested above, they will generally show good colouration most of the time. 

This complex can be sensitive to velvet (I've never had any issues with stock from Hermanus in this regard), and with the amount of iridescence they have it can be hard to pick up. If a fish suddenly starts clamping its fins excessively, seems listless and has a poor appetite, I would suspect velvet. 

Finally, to get successful spawning from this species generally requires extremely soft/low pH water. It is possible to get a spawn in more neutral conditions, but these are a rare species, and you want your tank to be as conductive to spawning as possible.


----------



## Catie79

Breeding is my utmost priority. I've got peat moss and IAL standing by, along with my RO machine, so hoping to get them the type of water they like. Drift wood, java moss, leaf litter, and heavy lids. I think I'm going to see if my scuds can be acclimatized to water with a low pH. If they can, I'll let them set up shop in the tanks to give the new arrivals something to hunt right away. I won't be getting them until February, should be enough time to get the scuds reproducing. Thanks!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Sounds like you have everything covered. 

The coccina complex is the only complex of wild bettas I collect. I think the species within it are the most beautiful of all the wild bettas. You just need to get their conditions right. 

I am so hoping my miniopinna pair get to my house okay. They have to go from Indonesia to Bangkok, Bangkok to QLD (stay there for seven days in quarantine) and then QLD to my house down at the other end of the country. 

It will also be interesting to see how closely they resemble my group of Betta persephone.


----------



## Catie79

I'll be right there with you, fretting through the import process. I don't have to do the 7 day quarantine, but I do have to send them to Florida, then up to New Hampshire. 

I'll distract myself by crafting lovely tanks in the meantime.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have to get the tank set-up for my pair as well. Mine is going to be ADA malaya substrate with a layer of peat moss over the top. A handful of large IALs as litter, a couple of pieces of goldvine to provide cover, and then watersprite and duckweed at the surface. 

If you can get your hands on one of those black plastic film canisters, your miniopinna will love you for it. Coccina complex fish are submerged bubblenesters and basically all of the spawning I have happen, happens in the film canisters. 

I've decided to sell my stiktos pair and whatever fry they have in their tank as I want to focus solely on the coccina complex and I think they really need to be in the home of a serious splendens complex breeder.

Unfortunately, my unimaculata have a bad velvet infection that has hit the female worst of all. I think I am going to have to euthanise the female today as I have not seen any improvement. Then if I can eradicate it from the juveniles, I will be getting rid of them as soon as they are big enough. The male is my mum's so I guess he will stay in a tank by himself or maybe with a son until he passes.


----------



## Catie79

I've been looking for film canisters, I haven't had film since college! My husband is helping me hunt, he thinks it's hilarious I'm having this much trouble. I may have to see if any place sells film still. Or I'll grab some black plastic tubing and stick a cap on the end.

Good luck with the unimaculata. In my dreams I get one representative of each complex, all on display in my fish room so people can see what a variety bettas come in.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah that was the issue I had. Only place I saw them on ebay that you could buy in bulk was from some place like Korea. 

Luckily a relative is on a medication trial and the medicaiton comes in what is essentially black film canisters. Until then I couldn't find them anywhere. 

I am being tempted by the sp. wajok Hermanus said he has for sale. Only problem is that I don't have much money to spend on fish and it's about $150 to import a pair of small wilds in depending on the initial purchase price. 

God I wish I had a job with income again. Subway might have been crap but at least the weekly pay meant I could always get what fish I wanted. 

My brownorum male finally has all his fins back after being savaged by his female. 










Now they look like blimps after I accidentally put too many blackworms in their tank. I think tomorrow might be a fasting day for them.


----------



## Catie79

I'll check ebay, thanks for the tip! I didn't think of that.

Hermanus is also hooking me up with albimarginata, he is a very dangerous man to know. At least for my bank account.

I blame you entirely for my growing love of the coccina complex. I spend a lot of time on your blog, drooling over your collection.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I agree. I also got some wild bettas from Joty (I think he is Jotyabetta Gallery) and I was very happy with them. My brownorum pair are from him. 

I am waiting for him (Joty) to get in burdigala and uberis again. I just didn't have enough money to get them plus the two pairs I actually did get. Knowing my luck it will be when I am broke. 

The coccina complex is so underrated. So many people prefer the bigger mouthbrooders and forget all about the smaller species.


----------



## Catie79

That's how it always happens. The perfect fish comes around in the one moment when you can't buy them. I'm wildly excited to have some of these little guys in my fish room. If they're half as stunning as the pictures, I'll probably waste hours looking for them in their tanks.

Do you keep your guys in straight RO, or in RO cut with tap water? I've always cut my water with tap, but if softer is better . . .


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I actually keep mine in straight tap water. Our tap water where I live has basically no KH value at all. What I do is let my tap water sit in a tub with an aquarium heater running and a stocking full of peat moss and some rooibos tea bags to further bring down the pH and add colour to the water. 

I used to just use it straight from the tap but since my problems with velvet I try to keep any changes in parameters as small as possible.


----------



## Setsuna




----------



## LittleBettaFish

What species is this tank for?


----------



## Wildbetta

Ok update time for me. I really need to get in a habit of posting more often. :/ Besides the ones I have now, I am going to be getting a pair of betta compuncta from Hermanus along with a female pallifina from him to go with my lone male. This will put me up to 3 species in the unimaculata complex.  Will also be adding some betta channoides sometime early in the year and also taking in a lone betta foershi. 

My betta ocellata juvies are getting close to 5 months now and I am starting to be able to tell sex of quite a few of them. I haven't gotten my other adult male though from my source so I have not had any other spawns so far. The last spawn that I saved from when my male passed away, all succumbed to a bad case of ICH. Really upset me when that happened but I have put more effort into the ones I have had growing out. 
My betta edithae juvies have grown a good bit and I have ended up with 2 males and 3 females. I have had a couple of spawns but no fry as of the moment. One male held to term and I even had a few fry but when I went back later in the day to move them out, the male had snacked on them. :/ Since then there has been too much moving around for them to feel comfortable to spawn again. Hopefully now that I have rearranged my tanks how I want them they will start to spawn again.
Picked up two 40Bs at Petco's $1/gallon sale end of last month so I was able to make room to get the compuncta and allow some of the others to have more room. Plus this allowed me to shut down 3 tanks (eventually 5 tanks).


----------



## Wildbetta

And for pictures. 

Adult female betta ocellata


Juvi male ocellata


Juvi female ocellatas


Juvi male ocellata with mom


Juvie male ocellatas showing off


Juvie male ocellatas showing off


Adult female simorum


Juvie male simorum


Female betta albimarginta


Betta albimarginata (adult female, adult male, and juvie male)


Male betta albimarginatas sparring


male betta albimarginatas sparring


betta picta pair


betta picta pair - male holding


Juvie betta picta


Juvie betta picta


Male betta pallifina


Male betta pallifina (no flash)


Male betta pallifina


Male picta and male edithae holding


Female betta edithae


Betta edithae pair (male holding)


Betta edithae male


----------



## Aus

Wildbetta... thanks for those pictures! You wouldn't happen to be in Australia, would you? :-D 

I've never seen such good pictures of edithae or picta, and I've never seen one of simorum at all! So cheers for those. 

Yes, please do post more often, lol. I'd love to hear more about your collection, and the different species.


----------



## Aus

Another species I've only recently heard of is dennisyongi - omg, how lovely are they??


----------



## Wildbetta

Thanks Aus! Unfortunately I am not located in Australia. I am in the US. 

I love the look of the dennisyongi but have never seen them in person. My pictas and edithae are some of the hardest of my wilds to get pics of since they are my most spookable and hide the most. All of other ones are normally up front begging. The simorum I had never heard of until I decided to get the auction. LOL Then once I had paid for it learned that it was a bubblenesting species. I keep to mouthbrooders but look forward to trying my hand with these big bubblenesters once the juvie males get big enough. They will be my largest species of wild betta easily reaching around 6in when full grown.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

We had some dennisyongi come into Australia at the end of last year along with what I think was a different kind of Betta rubra as well. 

Not sure if any actually made it down to Melbourne. 

How many gallons of water are you running with all those mouthbrooders WildBetta? That's one of the reasons I like the smaller bubblenesters. I can fit them all (mostly) onto one rack.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> What species is this tank for?


My Macrostoma ^^ 

PH is 6.0 or lower
11 PPM very clean ^^


----------



## Wildbetta

I am currently at 175 gallons spread across 9 tanks (one of which is my shrimp/assassin snail tank). Planning to drop it down to 165 gallons once I fix dividers for one of my tanks.

40B - Simorum tank


40B ocellata juvie (currently) pallifina/compuncta divided tank (eventually)


(will be planted once the juvies have gone to their new homes)

20L - albimarginata tank (will eventually be a divided albimarginata/channoides tank)


20H - picta and edithae tank


20L - ocellata tank (currently houses my pallifina male and some of the juvie ocellatas along with my adult female)


5 gallon - pleco/mystery snail growout (left), 5 gallon - albimarginata/picta growout (right)


Those 2 tanks will be consolidated into this last tank once I get some more acrylic to make my dividers.

20L - growout fry/juvie tank


And then of course my 5 gallon shrimp/assassin snail tank which I do not have a current updated pic of.

There is one from right after I set it up.

And here is a view of how all but the shrimp tank and ocellata adult tank look all together:


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Setsuna I thought you had a planted tank set-up for your macrostoma, or am I just remembering wrong? 

So many big tanks WildBetta. I don't know where you find the room. I've basically run out of flat surfaces both in my bedroom and in our rumpus room to put tanks on and the biggest I am running for my wilds are two 60x30x36cm tanks. 

My sp. apiapi juveniles are getting big. I think this one is definitely female as I caught it coloured right up today and it looked the spitting image of the female. Can't wait to see how many pairs I get out of this group of fry. I am hoping at least four.


----------



## Aus

WB, you are doing -- nothing-- here for the cause of my resistance to creating a fish room.... :lol:

Not that I could manage a lot of tanks. But maybe two more.. I have room/physical capability for two more tanks, I know that much. And if I move my one splendens to the 10g.. which I think he would like.. and use the big tank in the sunroom for a trio of macros... the little kitchen tank for cherry shrimp/betta snacks... I would still have room/physical energy for one, maybe two medium size species tanks in the spare room. 

See what you do?! :rofl:


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I do like 2L water changes on my smaller tanks once a week, with water I age in a heated tub so all I have to do is siphon water out, fill up my bucket with the aged water and pour it in. 

I don't have any physical limitations but our house has lots of stairs and I am lazy. 

I always think an automatic system where you just turn a tap on and water goes into your tank would be so nice. Then all I'd have to do is occasionally wipe the algae off my glass :mrgreen:


----------



## Aus

Back when I was more physically able, I once set up a rainbarrel irrigation system for my veggies, which used gravity to trickle the water into the veggie rows, using an elaborate and jerry-rigged system of hoses, split valves and a rain barrel on a picnic table, hooked up to the guttering pipe. Got the job done! haha. 

.. in a way, it's almost a blessing I'm not able to do stuff like that any more. 

But two medium tanks, that's do-able!


----------



## Wildbetta

My tanks (except for the 2 that are not in the last picture) are all in my garage which is really just an "extra room" on the house without all the good stuff like flooring over the concrete or paint on the walls ect. I still do the bucket brigade for my tanks since I do not have a sink to fill with down in the garage. My husband (though he hates my fish and tanks) installed hoses from each of the water lines to our clothing washer so that I can access both cold and hot water down in the garage instead of carrying it halfway across the house and down the 2 stairs into the garage. 

I do at least 25% water changes every week on all the tanks. This week is my first one with the 2 big tanks since I just set them up last Thursday (hence why they do not have a black background). And twice a week water changes on the fry tanks. I grow algae in those tanks to keep my levels perfect and although the fry grow a bit slower due to less water changes, I have less die off because of it. 

I found the shelving unit I am using for the two 40Bs and two 20Ls on Amazon for under $40 and set it up into 2 stands. I am loving it right now. I have completely covered the particle board shelves with thick plastic to keep any water out and keep the shelves from swelling.


----------



## Setsuna

I did but it turned out i was doing too much lol so that tank im just gonna make it a community lol...this will house the macrostomas. its much more simpler easier to clean and change water that way i wont stir things up


LittleBettaFish said:


> Setsuna I thought you had a planted tank set-up for your macrostoma, or am I just remembering wrong?
> 
> So many big tanks WildBetta. I don't know where you find the room. I've basically run out of flat surfaces both in my bedroom and in our rumpus room to put tanks on and the biggest I am running for my wilds are two 60x30x36cm tanks.
> 
> My sp. apiapi juveniles are getting big. I think this one is definitely female as I caught it coloured right up today and it looked the spitting image of the female. Can't wait to see how many pairs I get out of this group of fry. I am hoping at least four.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Understandable. My current lot of tanks are all designed so I have to do the least amount of maintenance/water changes to avoid disturbing my fish. 

Good luck with the macrostoma. They are an impressive fish.


----------



## MattsBettas

I've already talked to LBF of course, but just out of curiosity, anyone here experienced with albis or (preferably) channoides? I have the opportunity to get a pair... And I am pretty much just seeking out as much info as I can get haha.


----------



## Wildbetta

I have kept albis for over 2 years now. In my experience they are one of the easiest wilds to keep. They are quite small so they do not require a big space. The "sister" species Channoides are very similar and though I have not personally kept them (they are on my list of "wanted species) I would dare to say that they would be kept basically the same as the albis. Anything in particular you are wanting to know?


----------



## MattsBettas

Mostly feeding, temperature, and water chemistry (I have haaaard water). 

Albis are awesome too... But channoides are available haha and I'm not sure when the opportunity will pop up again.


----------



## Aus

.. waiting to hear back from Jodi-Lea on breeding pairs of a few species she might still have in stock... 

I don't want to say too much. But I really want some mouthbrooders. The tank just needs an overhead light & a bit more leaf litter to be where I want it, now.. specs are good, tank's very steady, plants are growing well in just indirect sun (picking up a light this week, though..). 

I feel like if I talk too much about it, I'll jinx myself... bit nervous about trying wilds again. But nothing ventured, nothing gained I guess. 

I asked about: dennisyongi, foerschi, strohi. I think I'd feel most confident with the smaller species before moving up to the bigger ones.

Anyways. Waiting..


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I'm not sure if she has any of those species available at the moment as on her updated wild betta list the only ones she had down were:

Mahachai pair $75
Rubra Red pair $100
Smaragdina Pair $70
Smaragdina Guitar Pair $75
Breviebeus Pair $80
Siamorientalis pair $90
Imbellis Pair $70 (on HOLD)

Rubra red are nice though. I believe someone in Canberra has a pair as he posted about them on the Wild Betta FB page. 

I know people who have unimaculata juveniles/sub-adults available in Melbourne at a fairly low price, but based on your enquiries that probably isn't a species you are after.


----------



## MattsBettas

Betta breviebeus? The only google results are her fb page...


----------



## Aus

I don't mind unis..  They're really lovely. But they're pretty common in the hobby already, yes? I guess I was after ones that aren't so much, but often enough that there's people with experience who can help if I need it.. if that-all makes any sense, lol. If I'm to have wilds, I'd like to help species that need the help, and that I can also manage with some confidence as a noob.

I called the store and spoke to Amanda, who said they had a palifina pair I could have, just not sure I want them, as I know literally nothing about that species... and the current lists aren't up to date or something and to email Jodi about what's in stock. She said there might be dennisyongi.. 

Really, I'd be happy to wait for a pair on the list. But now I'm pondering unis..


----------



## Aus

I found some info on breviobesus.. somewhere? can't find the damn link again. Anyway, it had a pic and some info. Will link if I can find it again..

Aha! here 'tis:

http://nicebetta.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/betta-breviobesus.html

pardon my spazzfingered typing..

** pardon* not 'parson'. heh


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yeah unimaculata are very common in the hobby at the moment. Mine are going to get put in a basket and dumped on someone's doorstep when they are big enough because otherwise I'll never be rid of them. 

Pallifina are from the same complex so care is very similar. 

I always find it best to wait for what you really want. I could have gotten uberis and burdigala, but I wanted my hendra and brownorum instead and am happy I made that choice. Nothing worse than getting the fish into your tank and regretting that you didn't purchase something else.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Here is some basic info. 

http://www.ibcbettas.org/smp/species/breviobesus.html


----------



## Aus

Yep, think I'll do just that and wait. Since I can only feasibly have 2 wilds tanks running at once, I'd like those to be something at least a bit more in need of help. 

So, waiting..

The other tank.. not an imminent concern at all.. I'd like to maybe try taeniata.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

What do other wild betta people think of this hendra juvenile? I'm thinking it looks like it could be a male as it has a lot of blue coming through and the ventrals are rather long. 




























Sorry about the juvenile. It was doing the whole "I'm not moving from this spot and if I do it will only be to turn and look at you" thing my wilds seem to have mastered. 

At least it is better than the single shot I got of my free-ranging persephone fry. It's one of only two F2 generation fry I have of that species so I have poured all my hopes and dreams into it. Undoubtedly my next update will involve it's death as that always seems to happen.


----------



## Setsuna

very beautiful!


----------



## MattsBettas

This week I read this entire thread through from the beginning, coincidently ending on the day I got my first wilds. I got a pair of channoides tonight, and am super happy. Pics to come.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Thanks Setsuna. The hendra juveniles in particular are very lovely. It looks like that juvenile I pictured is a male because he has much more colour through the body than the female does. 

I also found a third persephone fry and they are growing bigger every day. I am hoping I can either get a pair from the three I have, or separate out a pair from the adults and work at increasing my current population.


----------



## Setsuna

New Imbellis Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmUYedWM0eQ

Congrats to you Matt


----------



## Setsuna




----------



## Setsuna

Macrostoma fish tank

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vStSfYwc6A


----------



## Setsuna

Kunasung said:


> I love your tank


Thanks ^^


----------



## Setsuna

Finally the long wait is over!

My Macrostoma Pair 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQyOlHq29EM


----------



## MattsBettas

Beautiful, Setsuna.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Are they are young pair? The male doesn't look all that old in the video. 

Looks like he will colour up nicely though.


----------



## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Are they are young pair? The male doesn't look all that old in the video.
> 
> Looks like he will colour up nicely though.


Yes, they are still a bit young but thats okay longer i can keep them


----------



## Setsuna

MattsBettas said:


> Beautiful, Setsuna.


thanks


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I always prefer younger pairs. Macrostoma are great fish. I hope they settle in well for you.


----------



## Setsuna

i hope so too. im going to get hendras next. who size tank you prefer?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I use 12 inch cubes for most of my coccina species pairs. I find a dark substrate and tannin heavy water brings out the best colours on these fish. 

Here's my juvenile male. 









Here's his father.


----------



## Setsuna

how many gallon? that way i have a better idea


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I think they are 7 gallons. I have a pair and a couple dozen juveniles/fry in there right now and my tank is only filled 3/4s so it's probably really only like 5 gallons. 

They are not big fish, but they can be aggressive towards each other so I always recommend a decent amount of cover.


----------



## Hallyx

1.0 ft^3 = 7.48 US gal = 28.24 Litre


----------



## Setsuna

Share some more Macrostoma Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yXbg96jo-0


----------



## Setsuna




----------



## Setsuna




----------



## MattsBettas

Looks amazing. Great color on the male.


----------



## Hallyx

Great photography, Setsuna. That low cross-lighting is very dramatic. 

Beautiful Macs.


----------



## Setsuna

Thanks ^^

My male flares at my female but it seems my female shows no interest in him. What got me thinking is maybe macrostomas select their mate and keep it forever you know? LMAO thats just me hahaha


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Got this photo of my B. miniopinna male. I was trying to get him to flare at the mirror I was holding but he was more interested in eating. 










I think this pair have ich so I have increased the temperature. With that said, they have a lot of fry in there, and the male has a nest he is guarding so I'm not sure if he has more eggs in there.


----------



## lilnaugrim

I have some questions, possibly looking into wilds for my 29...possibly. But are there any that wouldn't mind 90 degree water during the summer? Rest of the year it will be around 70 pretty easy but in summer I have no control over what happens, even with fans it won't help much and we don't run A/C units. So if any wilds wouldn't mind surviving that, I would totally look into them more, otherwise I shall halt the search and look elsewhere


----------



## Hallyx

Look what Stone just got!

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/betta-chat/betta-simorum-360073/


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Most wilds prefer cooler water temperatures so low to mid seventies. Probably splendens complex species would be your best bet, although 90 degrees is getting pretty high.


----------



## lilnaugrim

I know :-/ that's why I asked. I preferably wanted one of the mouthbrooder complex's but if they can't stand up to the 90 degrees then it isn't worth me looking into at the moment.


----------



## Setsuna

Look at what we have here hahaha ^^ 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AkGAXE6UhY


----------



## Artemis

I've always wanted some smaragdina and plan on getting a 40 gal frag tank with a group when I get my own house and enough time and money for it (so like 10 years XD) they are so pretty.


----------



## Setsuna

Macrostoma eating 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyZayprC-RA


----------



## lynaeleanne

I'm loving this thread! It's so informative to a beginner like myself.

I got a pair of wild splendens a little over a month ago. I was told by the guy I bought them from that I can keep them together and I've read the same thing, but I have been too nervous to try it just yet! Does anyone have any tips on introducing them and/or spawning? They are currently in separate 5.5 gallons, but I have a planted 10 gallon I plan on moving them to next week!


----------



## Setsuna

lynaeleanne said:


> I'm loving this thread! It's so informative to a beginner like myself.
> 
> I got a pair of wild splendens a little over a month ago. I was told by the guy I bought them from that I can keep them together and I've read the same thing, but I have been too nervous to try it just yet! Does anyone have any tips on introducing them and/or spawning? They are currently in separate 5.5 gallons, but I have a planted 10 gallon I plan on moving them to next week!


Im an expert in this complex of wild. Do not put them together unless for breeding purpose only your male will kill the female. When people say they can live together they are wrong from my years of experience males will kill and bite females. the species and complex that can live together is Mouthbrooders only not splenden


----------



## Setsuna

My Macrostoma Male Holding 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGfnpjcMsfM


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Congrats Setsuna. Is this the first time he has held? 

Just watch the female. My female mouthbrooders used to harass the males to try and spawn again while they were holding so I had to sometimes separate them otherwise the males would swallow.


----------



## MattsBettas

Some (most) of LBF's coccina complex bubble nesters live together, it isn't ONLY mouthbrooders who can live together. 

Just got a pair of ocellata on the weekend and they're trying to spawn now... Anyone kept these guys or know anything about them? (Besides you, LBF!)


----------



## LittleBettaFish

All of mine live together. My stiktos pair did as well. 

That sounds like the longest attempt at spawning ever Matt. Got to love that horribly awkward first time.


----------



## MattsBettas

What about the wajok?

It's painful and awful, we're heading towards 24 hours not but they're making an attempt as I type. Not even any eggs yet... It's kinda funny actually. They'll get it soon enough.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

They have to be separated because they are only two males. If they were in a larger group like my persephone/rutilans it would probably be less of an issue. But with the two of them the weaker male just gets beaten up. 

I'm still waiting to hear back about my female and whether she is actually in the country/survived quarantine.


----------



## Setsuna

i know a persone with wild caught phersephone


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Are they from Hermanus? He's had some available I believe.


----------



## Setsuna

No not from Hermanus. This guy he catches himself


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Lucky he can catch them himself. They are hard to get here and rather pricey. I have four F2 juveniles here. I'm hoping one is female. I want to source a wild-caught or captive bred male of the same locality but different bloodlines to cross with her. 

I don't want to inbreed too much with my wilds in case there are issues with fertility as this complex aren't known for producing heaps of eggs per spawn anyway.


----------



## Setsuna

i see.....so it would be good if sometime in the near future you get some wild caught into your family


----------



## Setsuna

Parosphromenus Nagyi (Licorice Gouramis) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJNy-tNnRY8


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Jealous you can get these. Here their importation is severely limited. I think you can only import males of a certain size. 

I think they are a nice complement to wild bettas.


----------



## Setsuna

Yea, i heard about that.....AU importing laws are a bit crazy


----------



## Setsuna

anything new?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Well I (hopefully) have a pair of Betta uberis and another pair of Betta miniopinna coming in this latest shipment. 

Then I am going to be saving up for a pair of Betta rutilans. On my wishlist is a wild-caught pair of Betta coccina. My pair have had velvet and are from the wholesaler here so are not really what I want to be breeding.


----------



## MattsBettas

Splendens complex owners (ahem, Setsuna):

What complex members have you kept? 
Who did you get them from?
What complex member is your favorite? 
Which ones need breeders? 
Are any particularly intolerant or tolerant of a high pH? 
What is the minimum tank size for them?


----------



## Setsuna

MattsBettas said:


> Splendens complex owners (ahem, Setsuna):
> 
> What complex members have you kept?
> Who did you get them from?
> What complex member is your favorite?
> Which ones need breeders?
> Are any particularly intolerant or tolerant of a high pH?
> What is the minimum tank size for them?



1)I have had all 7 of them 
2)My friends from Thailand buys and send to me or they catch it themselves and sends to me
3)I like Imbellis and Siamorientalis
4)Not sure what you mean by need breeders. maybe you mean which species is likely to die first? I would say Mahachaneisis.
5)They can tolerate any PH or water type as far as i know. Your water from the faucet is much cleaner then the water that they come from.
6)I keep mines in a 4x4x8 beanie jar. Breeding tank is at least 5gallon to 10gallon(10 is consider too big for me)


----------



## Warbler

I'm looking into wild bettas, and I'm wondering if somebody could help me out...
I really want some betta simplex but don't have a massive amount of cash. A place near me is selling some wilds, but I don't know if I should get a reverse trio or just a pair. Somebody told me they need to be in trios otherwise the female might breed a lone male to death? However, I can't find any other evidence of this. Does it really matter if it's a trio or pair? Thanks!


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Honestly, I've never had a female mouthbrooder in a pair situation breed a male to death. Generally if a female is that eager to spawn again and again, you should separate them for a few weeks to allow the male to recuperate. I think you would have to be a pretty lax fishkeeper to let your male basically starve to death. 

I've always kept my mouthbrooding fish in pairs (except for when I had a reverse trio of channoides) and never had an issue with my males. 

Anyway I would assume a female would be just as capable of 'breeding to death' two males as a lone male, as my channoides female would get one male with a mouthful and then only a few days later have the other male holding as well.


----------



## Warbler

OK thank goodness.  
So then would the only benefit of a trio be that the female has more choice in a mate?
Also, these are actual F1 wild bettas. I've heard that wild bettas tend to be more picky, but that simplex is hardier and likes harder water (mine is around 7.4). Do you think they will acclimate alright or should I give them special attention during the first few weeks?


----------



## LittleBettaFish

F1 are captive bred stock so they should be fine. I think most of those smaller mouthbrooders and even most of the bigger species, are pretty adaptable. 

I have wild-caught fish from perhaps the most difficult complex and they are all fine living here with me.


----------



## Warbler

Oops, I meant wild caught fish. Sorry about that (so would F0 be the proper term or is just saying wild caught more straight forward?).
But thank you so much for the information! Now to catch and move my cherry shrimp and prep the tank.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I usually just say wild-caught. I think some people may abbreviate it as WC .

Haha you should leave the cherry shrimp in. Your simplex will appreciate the snack.

Also, one very big word of warning. Please cover the tank entirely so that there is not the slightest gap (around the heating/filter cords especially) for your wilds to jump through. 

I use cling wrap over all my wild betta tanks nowadays as I have lost well over a dozen to jumping. They will find the smallest gap possible and get out if they can and it is devastating to find them dried up on the floor.


----------



## Hallyx

I also use cling-wrap. And I cover a third of the top of the tank with a towel. This "shade" mimics marginal vegetation, which they like. It covers where the cord and airline exits from the tank.

Let'em try and jump through that.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I put towels over my tanks at night. It's probably not necessary with my smaller wilds but night seems to be when they are more likely to jump out. 

I did have a unimaculata female tear through the corner of my cling wrap once. Found her halfway across the floor. The bigger mouthbrooders are so strong and such agile jumpers. 










Got this photo tonight of my lone brownorum male. He is unrelated to any of the other brownorum I own and came from the local wholesaler here in Melbourne. Because he has been exposed to velvet I cannot sell him in good faith, so he just gets to live out his life here with me.

I very rarely see him out and about so I took the opportunity today to get a photograph of him.


----------



## Setsuna

nice pictures


----------



## Catladywithafish

Love seeing all the different bettas


----------



## William Zhong

Nice fish, hope i can catches that fish in the wild, im just caught Trichopsis Schalleri, hope you like this


----------



## Warbler

Wow! It must be awesome to be able to catch those species of fish...are you allowed to keep them or do they have to be released?
I also have a question about my wild bettas. I ended up getting a pair of betta albimarginata, and they are beautiful and doing well. Today I went up to their tank and the male was coloured up but hiding while the female had vertical stripes, and they were hanging very close to each other. It seems that, after only a week in my tank and minimal food (bloodworm colony mishap!) they had decided to breed. The male is looking kind of funny though; it doesn't seem like he's holding, but he's got a big lump where I assume his stomach is. Is this normal, or did he just swallow all of the eggs and they are just sitting there now? Either way he's not eating. I've included some terrible pictures, but you can just make out the lump.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Hmm none of my males holding have ever had a fat stomach, just a distended mouth area. Maybe he did eat the eggs, or perhaps he's only eaten some of them.

I'm so devastated right now. Just learned my pair of rutilans I was eagerly anticipating coming this week actually died in shipping. I'm sad because I was so excited to have a pair of these again, and also because it seems like such a waste of their lives to die in transit. Particularly, since they were wild-caught.

The seller is sending another pair along with a pair of Betta coccina that missed this shipment, on the next shipment, but that is another month or so away.


----------



## Wildbetta

He looks like he has swallowed the eggs. Hopefully he will hold for you next time. Normally this will happen if the male is hungry as it makes it hard for him to keep from eating them.


----------



## Warbler

Yeah, 100% sure he swallowed. I was feeding bloodworms and he happily gobbled some down, and his stomach size has gone down since yesterday. Ah well, it's better for him in the long run. If he held them it would mean he would go two weeks without eating. :O
LittleBetta that sucks. Hopefully the next pair will come through just fine.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Yes, it's better for the males to spawn on a full stomach. If the female keeps pestering him to spawn (I find it's the females with most of the mouthbrooders who like to dictate the when), I would advise temporarily separating them. 

I sometimes had to do it with my channoides female as she would get both males with mouths full and then start harassing them to spawn again because while they were holding, she'd be eating all the food and plumping up with eggs.

Yeah it was very disappointing to hear. I'm thinking I might tag another pair onto the next shipment though. Can't decide at this point between burdigala or brownorum.


----------



## Wildbetta

So sorry to hear about your rutilans LBF.  Hate when that happens. Hopefully the next ones are stronger and arrive healthy and active.

Warbler -- what I have found with my albimarginata is to feed them really good and then once they spawn, cut the feedings down a bit so that the female doesn't produce eggs as quickly which will help with her wanting to spawn again. Albimarginata also tend to hold for about 3 weeks instead of 2 like a lot of the other mouthbrooding species so making sure that he is well fed between spawns is very important.


----------



## Warbler

Just wondering, but are your females more "aggressive" and forward than the males? My female is always the first one out as soon as she sees me holding the pipette, and actually mouths the pipette exit to try and get the worms out, while the main usually sits back and observes and then decides to come forward. Even then he always has to look and think about his food for a second before eating which, and the female has usually eaten it by then.
Also, thanks for the advice so far! I'll be sure to pay extra attention to the male during feeding, though he's not making it easy.


----------



## Wildbetta

Yep the females to all my wild species are more aggressive and not as shy as the males. They are the first to the food and the first to initiate spawning.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

I have a couple of very aggressive females here, but mostly with the coccina complex species, I have found the males do tend to be dominant. 

Probably my most aggressive female is my brownorum female. She attacked her male on a couple of occasions and then killed him in a very brutal fashion. However, her oldest son is much more physically aggressive than his father and after a few fights, seems to have her under control. 

This brownorum female also used to flare at a male that lived in the tank over and then at the hendra female who lives on the other side. She is growing less tolerant of her daughters now they are getting to breeding size, so have to watch that. 

With mouthbrooders however, I found my females were much pushier than the males. They usually dictated the whens and wheres of spawning and would often harass the males. 

Took some photos of my Betta miniopinna juveniles. I think this first one is a male based on colour, body shape and attitude. His father is much bigger than he is, but this one was chasing him off from the grindals. I think the second one may be female as she looks rounder and her fins and colour is different. 

I never thought I would own this species and now I have two separate pairs and two tanks full of young fish of various ages. It's crazy.


----------



## missavgp

I recently found a place that can get in a variety of wilds. I am really taken with Betta albimarginata. Does anyone have any tips caring for them specifically? (ie tank size, filtration, water chemistry, recommended numbers) I've been caring for and breeding betta splendens for the past year and am kinda looking for something different but kinda the same lol. and the mouthbrooders intrigue me.

For a reference, the tank I have in mind is a 25G dirt, heavily planted tank with a diy corner air filter. It is currently used as a grow out and has snails (though the assassins should help with this) and yellow neocaridina shrimp. Haven't checked the parameters lately so not sure where I am there.


----------



## LittleBettaFish

Albis are probably one of the easiest wild bettas to care for. 

A breeding pair could be happy in anything from five gallons upwards. They do prefer a slightly cooler water temperature than splendens. I always kept my albis and channoides at mid to low 70s. 

While they are not particularly fussy about water conditions, I have found that they do prefer water that is soft to neutral. If your water is particularly hard, there are species such as simplex and some of the larger mouthbrooders that may be more suitable. 

Reverse trios are good for mouthbrooders because the males do have to go for extended periods of time without eating, and it is very easy for an over eager female to strip a male of condition through constant back-to-back spawns. 

My albis and channoides were always very peaceful. Any aggression was mostly limited to display rather than physical violence. You could easily keep a small group in a 20 gallon tank as they are not big, or particularly active fish. 

They may however attack your shrimp. They have a big mouth, and like most bettas, are very good hunters. 

Otherwise, they are a good species for those dipping their toes into wilds. Very low maintenance, easy breeders, and they have a winning personality.


----------



## missavgp

Thanks for all the info! I guess I made a good first choice on what I'd like to get. I think I am going to get a reverse trio after we come back from vacation. I have that 25 gallon ready and my water is pretty soft already. 

I figured that my shrimp would end up looking like lunch. It's actually why they are in the growout; gives the juvies hunting experience and grows them up along with the food I am giving them. That's why it's neos not caridinas, they breed so much easier and faster.


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## Warbler

I've only owned them for a few weeks, but I have found (so far) that they are fairly easy fish to keep happy. My pH is around 7.2 though hardness is low, and they haven't showed any negative effects of the relatively high pH. They also prefer cooler water (around 74/76) than splendens. There's a big heat wave hitting where I live now, and my pair always seem more colourful and active when we turn the AC on for the day and the tank is cooler. But they have gone through the high temps without any obvious signs of huge discomfort, though I wouldn't risk it in the long run.
They seem to just be hardy overall. The first week I had them I had a live food disaster and my whole colony of bloodworms died, and they had to go without food for about five days! Interestingly enough, the day I got food they decided to breed, even though they must have been fairly stressed from the move and not eating. Male swallowed the eggs, of course, but it seemed there were little repercussions. 
I would remove the shrimp, however. I had shrimp in their current tank(before they were introduce) and removed most. I couldn't find one particular shrimp, however (markings were very different) and just decided it wasn't worth the trouble. I introduced the bettas, and the next day all that was left of him was the exoskeleton of his tail. But other than small shrimp they are peaceful. They were curious about the otos and the bamboo shrimp in the tank, but after a brief investigation, they have completely left them alone.
25 G should be plenty. My pair are in a ten gallon, and even then I think they would be happy in something smaller like a five gallon. They are pretty small guys, actually, but they colour up beautiful and exhibit some fascinating behaviours, both in and out of breeding. My pair, for instance, seem to be very bonded and love to occasionally swim very close to each other, almost touching. It's very cute, and I would definitely recommend a pair or a reverse trio.


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## missavgp

Thanks for all the info. I unfortunately think I have to hold off for a while as I just got the price list....and $567 each is way more than I want to spend, especially when I can import them sometimes from AB for a lot less. I priced it out cause there is a reverse trio on Ebay right now for $50 and it would cost me less to drive to the US,fly across the country and pick them up and drive back across to home than it is to buy in from this place in Canada.


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## Warbler

Wow, that's crazy! I'd send you some but it seems my male refuses to hold eggs and thinks swallowing his kids is the bees knees...:roll: Hope you find some good ones. I live right by the Wet Spot and I know they have some other paired up and easily sexed albimarginatas in their tanks that they're selling on Aquabid. You could ask if they can try and send you a reverse trio.
It seems my pair like to get it on every two weeks but the male has been consistently swallowing, and today marks his third time eating rather than holding. Is there anything I can do to try and convince him to hold onto the eggs? I'm feeding blackworms pretty heavily each day. The only thing that's been off is that the temps have been getting in the 80s (Fahrenheit) during the day this week. 
I did manage to get some pictures of my female. They're pretty shoddy quality, but my phone was the only thing on hand and I didn't want to bother them much. My female really colours up nicely when she's in the mood. Her tail gets this nice rusty orange and she gets really clear vertical stripes, she kind of reminds me of a samurai gourami. ^.^














The second one is right after coitus (you can see the male's enlarged belly from all of those eggs!), so she's still pretty coloured up. You can kind of make her out in front of the male. Like I said, awful quality, but man I love those stripes. The male surprisingly doesn't colour up when they're in the middle of mating or afterwards. The first one you can still see some of that orange more towards the base, but that's way after they had sex. She was begging for food at that point. I'm actually surprised they mated since she got sucked up the gravel vacuum two days ago and had some cuts!


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## Warbler

I'm still having problems with the male swallowing eggs. They spawned again today, and this is about the 5th or 6th time that he has eaten all of his eggs. I've heard that they don't like movement in their tanks, so do you think it could be the otos or the mosquito rasboras in their tanks? Neither are particularly active, however, (though my otos go nuts when the lights turn on). 
Is there anything else I could be missing? Do I need to condition him in some way other than lots of food?


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## Setsuna

Copper Smaragdina Flaring (Wild Betta Smaragdina)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTR6y5fIitY&list=UUuXe7rWj7aL5jnoeKYRI2AQ


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## LittleBettaFish

Nice photo and video as usual Setsuna. 

Still seeing a lot of crappy hybrid splendens complex species here in Australia being passed off as pure. It's very disheartening. All it takes is for them to get crossed into a truly pure species line and it's wrecked.


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## Tuigirl

Oh my god, I think I am in love!
Always had a soft spot for wild betta....
maybe that is why I got a girl....;-)


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## Setsuna

thanks ^^ its been a while since i posted something


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## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Nice photo and video as usual Setsuna.
> 
> Still seeing a lot of crappy hybrid splendens complex species here in Australia being passed off as pure. It's very disheartening. All it takes is for them to get crossed into a truly pure species line and it's wrecked.


Ivan has some sure splendens. Hes in Australia too i think you might know him


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha yes, me and him talk all the time through FB. He definitely sourced some really nice stock into Oz. Be a shame when he leaves the country.


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## Setsuna

LittleBettaFish said:


> Haha yes, me and him talk all the time through FB. He definitely sourced some really nice stock into Oz. Be a shame when he leaves the country.


oh, i talk to him on FB too lol


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## missavgp

So I found a place that I can get the betta albimarginatas shipped to me for $169 for 4 (3 male, 1 female). Just a question if you guys think this is reasonable? Also, will this mix work?
Thanks.

And Setsuna, your fish are beautiful!


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## Setsuna

missavgp said:


> So I found a place that I can get the betta albimarginatas shipped to me for $169 for 4 (3 male, 1 female). Just a question if you guys think this is reasonable? Also, will this mix work?
> Thanks.
> 
> And Setsuna, your fish are beautiful!


Thanks ^^. As for your Albi i dont keep them so i dont know much about price on them but if you do get them post pictures


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## missavgp

very excited, I'm getting the albis this week. I'll post pics as soon as they come in.


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## Soph7244

Is there a way to keep a pair to not breed without a divider?


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## MattsBettas

Keeping them in separate tanks completely would obviously work, but other than that not really. Breeding should be a goal when keeping most (pure) species of wild bettas, especially when they're threatened. Why wouldn't you want them to breed? 

Healthy fish will breed.


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## missavgp

I have my albis! They are so friendly, which I didn't expect from wild caught fish, but these guys are always out to see me when I am in the fish area.


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## LittleBettaFish

Wild-caught fish (particularly mouthbrooders) can be very friendly. I suppose it depends how long they stay with the seller after they are caught as it does not take long for them to associate people with food. 

If you got a pair I hope you are looking forward to lots of fry. Albimarginata are worse than guppies! 

Who was the seller of your fish?


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## missavgp

lol good to know. I got 3 males and a female actually.  And I got them from The Wet Spot in Portland OR, USA. I'm very happy with them, both with purchasing from them and how the fish were shipped.


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha I had two males channoides in with a female and she kept those two males busy with mouthfuls - usually at the same time. 

I was wondering if they were from the Wetspot. Otherwise my other thought was Joty from Indonesia. He is where I get 99% of my wilds from now.


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## missavgp

So it turns out that all the albis from the wetspot were male, but I got two pairs of captive bred albis from aquabid and the seller sent me an extra female.

They seem to have acclimated well and were eating white worms for me right away. I was a little concerned as they had been lost in the mail and delayed, but seem quite well after warming up and getting into a 25g planted tank. 

*note they are not with the other four, this tank is where I am quarantining them, though if all goes well and no one gets sick it will be used for breeding and grow out as well.*

I actually contacted Joty about getting a pair, though I was able to get a better deal on the ones I ended up with.


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## LittleBettaFish

Unfortunately, that can be the problem when fish aren't sold specifically as breeding pairs (I don't think Wetspot does for a lot of wilds from what I've seen). When they are young or washed out in colouring it can be so difficult to sex. 

Joty's wild bettas (he sources them from various suppliers) are amazing. Some of my best wilds have come from him. Sadly wild-caught fish can be delicate and here in Australia we have such a prolonged shipping and quarantine process that I do end up losing a few. 

Good luck with your albimarginata.


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## missavgp

no they don't but I was hopeful for a while as one of them took a long time to actually colour up. He was the gray/brown of a female. Then all of a sudden he's as red as everyone else. 

I may get some eventually from Joty to broaden my gene pool. 

Thanks. I'm hoping I am able to breed them. They are settling nicely and are loving the white worms I offered


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## Linsey195

I've only recently discovered the wild bettas and have been doing quite a bit of research on them. However, I can not seem to find them in America and am very concerned with international fish, not just because of the cost but the time that the fish themselves would spend being sent all the way to Nebraska, U.S. Can anyone give me ideas on how to go about it? I would prefer mouthbrooding wild bettas and plan to put them in a ten gallon heavily planted tank. I only want two and was hoping for a male and a female that are compatible for breeding. Thanks


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## LittleBettaFish

They are definitely in America, and your shipping process is much easier than ours - no enforced quarantine period and cheaper to import. 

However, if you are not comfortable with purchasing overseas, there are many breeders of mouthbrooding bettas in America. Maybe not near you, but you could easily have them sent to you. 

What sort of mouthbrooding species were you looking at? There is a difference between something like Betta macrostoma and Betta channoides for example in terms of price, care requirements, and availability. I would think you would looking at some of the smaller mouthbrooding complexes with a tank that is only ten gallons.

There is the IBC SMP FB group dedicated to wild bettas and most members on that seem American. They could definitely put you into contact with breeders. Otherwise you can go through the Wetspot (they post on Aquabid a lot), but I don't believe they guarantee breeding pairs as evidenced above. 

I just got all my new wilds today. Unfortunately, I lost one of my Betta livida females leaving me with one pair and a spare male, and my pair of Betta sp. apiapi which I was particularly keen to get as apparently their habitat is destroyed and I may not be able to get a pair of wild-caught individuals again. However, the rest of my wilds have settled in well and are exploring their tanks and chasing each other around.


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## Linsey195

My boyfriend was very interested in macrostoma, however, you seem to know much more about wild bettas and I would very much appreciate any insights you have on what would be best for a smaller tank like a 10 gallon. We do not plan on getting them immediately, we both want to make sure that we have done plenty of research on them before we buy them as well as get a new planted tank set up and make sure that the plants have time to grow before we put any fish in the new tank. This way we can be sure to have a proper environment and know how to properly care for them with a much lower risk than just going out and buying them and hoping for the best. So what do you suggest?


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## LittleBettaFish

I probably would not start with macs. Even though I think all wild bettas are pretty easy to care for once you get the water right, macrostoma are generally not considered a beginner fish for those first stepping into wilds. 

Also a 10 gallon would be too small IMO for a pair. 

What is your water like? Only a handful of species will really do well in harder water. Most wilds prefer their water soft to neutral with varying degrees of adaptability.


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## Linsey195

I only use reverse osmosis water. Never tap water. Other than that I rarely test my water. I keep duckweed in all of my tanks and use lights specifically for plant growth.


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## LittleBettaFish

That opens you up to a lot more possibilities. 

Betta rubra and Betta dennisyongi are two of the smaller mouthbrooders that have spectacular colouration, but could live happily in a 10 gallon tank. 

Otherwise, there is the albimarginata complex to consider. Channoides and albis are fish I always recommend for newcomers to wild betta species as they are easy to care for and easy to breed. 

Otherwise, there are the dimidiata, picta, and pugnax group of fish. I have no experience with any members of these complexes but I hear they are not particularly fussy and pretty easy to breed/keep.


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## Linsey195

Awesome, thank you. I will look into those types and keep an eye on aquabid to hopefully get an idea on prices.


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## LittleBettaFish

No worries. I always like helping people out with the wild bettas. They are not particularly popular on this forum, but I would keep them any day over the fancy splendens.


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## Linsey195

I had to custom make my own dividers so they would slow down the flow from the filter in one of my ten gallon tanks. Without those dividers my two crown tail male betta splendens would not be able to swim. Also had to modify the filters on my smaller tanks so that my others could swim as well. This is a big part of the reason that I am so interested in the wild bettas. The wild ones a better built for swimming because they are more natural than the splendens.


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## Hallyx

There are a B. splendens plakats with smaller finnage whoa re strong swimmers. Females of the species, too. Wilds, on the other hand, are so charming.

SO ... after bragging a coupe of pages ago about how cling-film and towels have been very secure for keeping my smarigdina, I can't find him. Not anywhere. Tore the tank down. Looked all over the stand and the floor. His little corpse is _just_ ... _not_ ... _there_, anywhere. 

He has vanished into thin air. I swear. I've never encountered nor heard of anything like this. A total mystery.

I'm confused, boggled and totally flummoxed.


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## Linsey195

I have a couple of plaket splendens they seem to enjoy the flow from the filter, one of them purposely swims into it sometimes  haha i get a kick out of their antics. 

If he did get out could he have flopped under anything, between anything? I hate loosing fish


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## LittleBettaFish

Any space around the airline/heater cable? Perhaps he got out during a water change and you didn't notice (I have had this happen before). Do you use a sponge filter? Some of my wilds are capable of going into their sponge filters and I killed a female that way because I didn't realise she was still in there when I took the sponge filter out. I also had a burdigala male nearly drown himself going into those sponge filters you attach to the wall and have the wide outlet tube.


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## missavgp

My albimarginatas are spawning today!


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## LittleBettaFish

Haha it does not take long. Just make sure your male gets a break in between spawns as female mouthbrooders will starve their partners otherwise.


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## LittleBettaFish

Took these photos today of my Betta uberis pair. They had velvet not long ago and as such I am hesitant to attempt to spawn them as I have had re-infections occur when fry are present. Shame as the male is stunning. He actually got out of his breeder box yesterday as they are not meant to be together (seems wilds can't exist together without popping in a spawn or two). 

The length of his dorsal and anal fin is just amazing. 



















My female isn't bad either. The little hussy has been barred up and flirting with him since I did their water change.


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## Ilovebettasbk11

Wow suscribing to this for sure all are cute


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## missavgp

Lol it seems like the wild bettas are always in season and the ladies are always trying to entice the boys.


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## Kim

Are wilds as personable as the splendens? It is surely a compelling idea to have a tank with more than one fish in it, but I sure do love those puppy-dog personalities


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## LittleBettaFish

Most of the mouthbrooding species and the splendens complex are friendly. The complex I keep is probably the most shy, and even the ones I have raised myself and owned for a couple of years are fairly reclusive. 

I'd look at the splendens or unimaculata complex if you want particularly friendly fish.

I also think my uberis male is in his film canister working on a nest as the female has barred right up and has some nips out of her caudal. Now I'm going to have to be the bad guy and destroy all his hard work.


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## Warbler

I have a question. I bought two unpaired male-female betta coccinas, and they've slowly been getting used to each other, and the male can finally get about an inch from her while flaring before she starts freaking out, so I *think* they're getting paired up. She also bars up fairly often...but she's been fairly reclusive for the past few days and just appeared today with a pretty big chunk of her tail missing and even some pieces missing on her anal fin and just generally looking beat up, but she's all barred up. Should I remove her to recuperate? She can still swim, and is acting normally. Would I kind of ruin the chances of her getting "closer" to the male?
Thanks!
Thanks!


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## LittleBettaFish

The coccina complex can be really aggressive to each other. I put them on par with, or just behind the splendens complex in this regard. The coccina complex is all I keep and I have had established pairs suddenly turn extremely violent resulting in severe injury or even death.

Courtship is usually a very rough process and so it is normal for there to be damage to fins, scales etc. I can't make a judgment call on the behaviour of your female and whether she is being unduly harassed by the male. But I rarely pull my fish unless it's obvious that one is going to become sick or seriously injured if they remain together.


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## Warbler

Alright, thanks. This is my second wild species, and it seems they're almost the opposite of albis, haha. I'll keep her in for now then since she seems otherwise fine.


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## LittleBettaFish

Yes albis and channoides are probably the most docile of betta species. The coccina complex is beautiful but they can be savage.


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## missavgp

Just wanted to update that I have albi fry. my male held for 15 days and spit out 12+ (12 for sure but I may have missed one) babies. They are awfully cute.


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## missavgp

I wanted to share a few pics of my growing albi babies


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## LittleBettaFish

This is a bit of delayed response, but I've always found Betta albimarginata (and by extension Betta channoides) fry to be incredibly cute. They always look so inquisitive. 

I didn't really have enough to write a post in my journal, so figured I would post a couple photos of my new Betta sp. apiapi here. It seems to be the smallest species of wild betta discovered thus far, even from a complex of small fish. 









Male









His female


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## missavgp

They are really cute, and right from the first day we get to see them. They are always out wondering what I am doing (usually hoping I'm giving them food). 

Those are some beautiful fish! I love that bright red. good luck with them.


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## missavgp

So I'm waiting to hear back from a seller on AB as I won the auction for two pairs of betta rubra. 

Does anyone have any advice on their care and potential breeding? 

I am setting up a new tank for them (using a cycled filter) and have driftwood to make some caves and will be planting it. Not sure what to go with for a substrate this time as I usually do a dirt tank, though I am still considering it and using fluval stratum as a cap instead of sand (this is what I have in my Albi tank). I do know that they prefer more acidic water (the ph of most of my tanks is 6.8-7.2) so I was going to put peat in a filter media bag and put it in the filter to soften the water and lower the ph more.
Is this a good idea?

Thanks in advance for any help.


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## LittleBettaFish

I haven't kept rubra, but I really like ADA aquasoil for my wild betta tanks. Malaya or Africana are best as they will help lower the pH and release very little ammonia compared to Amazonia. There are also other brands of soil such as Up Aqua and Fluval Stratum that might be easier for you to get your hands on, and cheaper. 

If you plan on lowering your pH too much, you are most likely going to lose your cycle. I never bother cycling any of my wild betta tanks. I find they have a pretty low bioload and my live plants take care of any ammonia. 

I think apart from a handful of species, most wild bettas prefer similar set-ups. Slightly soft/acidic to neutral water, plenty of cover, dark water, dim lighting, and lots of live or frozen foods. I think most mouthbrooders are fairly easy to induce to spawn based on my own experiences/what I've read.


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## missavgp

ugh, now I'm frustrated. He got back to me, but doesn't want to give me an invoice so that I can bring them across the border, something that is legal and I have done before. This is after he said before I won the auction that it wasn't a problem to ship them there for me to pick up and bring across. I had even sent him the regulation from the Canadian Justice Laws website for what needed to be on there. 

Even aside from the border crossing, I won't buy anything and get it shipped without an invoice. I expected to be receiving one anyway.


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## evilone

Just starting to keep the Channoides ,


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## missavgp

Nice looking channoides. I was torn between them and the albimarginatas I eventually got as my first wilds.


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## missavgp

So I got some new wild bettas today. I was able to get 8 four month old betta macrostoma juvies.


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## missavgp

At what age is it most likely that I will be able to sex my betta macrostoma? They were spit out on 12 Nov 14, so they will be 5 months old this Sunday.


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## MattsBettas

Beautiful, missavgp! Where did you get them? 

Not sure about sexing. No guarantees but LittleBettaFish has kept them and may be of help.


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## LittleBettaFish

I can't really help. I never bred them and don't have any experience with sexing young macrostoma.


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## missavgp

Thanks Matt. I was lucky enough to know someone in Montreal whose friend was successful in breeding a wild caught pair. He had around 30 and was offering a very good price for the unsexed juveniles so I couldn't pass up the opportunity to get some. I got 8 because I wanted to make sure that I had enough that the chances of getting both sexes was good as I am hoping to try breeding them.


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## missavgp

So immediately after asking that question I see my first two boys in the group getting the spot on their dorsal fin. They are 5 months old tomorrow and have grown 1/2 an inch since I got them two weeks ago.


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## missavgp

just wanted to share some new pictures.


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## Kisiel

My channoides pair is driving me nuts. First the female had breeding bars and wanted to mate but the male wasn't interested. Now the male is so so red, like never before. And the female keeps ignoring him. For god's sake, they've mated before - just before I bought them, the male spat out the eggs on the first night with me, probably due to the stress of moving. Doing it again surely can't be that difficult! Perhaps I need to move the girl to a breeding net for a couple of nights :/


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## missavgp

I understand the frustration. My albis have been doing something similar and I have been contemplating doing that to get things going again. I think it may be a good idea to separate them for a bit and see if absence makes the...heart... grow fonder. :-D I know I'm going to give it a try.


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## evilone

When i was visiting my home town in South Sumatra for Holiday , and i'm curious find small ponds that infront of my house. and look what i've found - Wild Betta Raja - i caught around 4 , but i believe there's still hundred of them in the ponds .


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## TahneeJenkins

Awe, they are much prettier than I expected, thanks for sharing!


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## Kim

I am so jealous now evilone! To be able to catch bettas right outside one's house...that is the meaning of happiness haha! I come from a cold climate so all the fish are much too large to keep in your average size aquarium.


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## evilone

Kim said:


> I am so jealous now evilone! To be able to catch
> bettas right outside one's house...that is the meaning of happiness haha! I come from a cold climate so all the fish are much too large to keep in your average size aquarium.


hi Kim, now i found my aquarium too small for those betta. Saw several fighting in the past few days , moving them to the smaller aquarium will be a good solution but i'll take up so much space . Especially in my small apartment.


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## Kim

What size tank are they in right now? Maybe just try throwing a ton of plants in with them to break up the lines of sight until you can figure something out. I haven't had the chance to keep wilds, but it seems that like the splendens, most appreciate a heavily planted tank to reduce aggression. They sure are cute though!


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## Nismo83

Hi, new to this forum. Sharing one of my male channoides.


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## Nismo83

Same tank.


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## Nismo83

My albi


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## claxtongal

What a beautiful fish.


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## Kim

They are beautiful Nismo83!!


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## Nismo83

claxtongal said:


> What a beautiful fish.





Kim said:


> They are beautiful Nismo83!!


Thank you both. One of female channoides want to spawn but the male seems not interested. While my male albirimingata are being owned by the females:-(

Am currently in the process of building a acrylic tank (due to having acrylic laying around).. Hope I can finish it in the coming week for a pair of wild caught Ocellata. Fishes are already booked and currently at the seller place.


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## Nismo83

the two male Albis at home,


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## Kisiel

Nismo83 said:


> Hi, new to this forum. Sharing one of my male channoides.


What a handsome boy :shock:


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## Nismo83

Kisiel said:


> What a handsome boy :shock:


Thanks Kisiel. I hope they will be more active after adding the cardinal tetra. Seems like opposite. :-?


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## Hallyx

Some beautiful, healthy, high-color fish. I especially like the Albi clan. How many in there?

I like my Ocellata a lot. Yours are wild -- even better.

Find LittleBettaFish View Profile: LittleBettaFish from Australia. Serious wild Betta keeper/breeder.

Welcome to the forum


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## Nismo83

Hallyx said:


> Some beautiful, healthy, high-color fish. I especially like the Albi clan. How many in there?
> 
> I like my Ocellata a lot. Yours are wild -- even better.
> 
> Find LittleBettaFish View Profile: LittleBettaFish from Australia. Serious wild Betta keeper/breeder.
> 
> Welcome to the forum


I have 2 males and 2 females. The tetra are extra. 

Hope I can finish the project asap for the ocellata. Cuz I need to shift the two pairs of channoides in office to another tank first. Haha


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## Nismo83

evilone said:


> When i was visiting my home town in South Sumatra for Holiday , and i'm curious find small ponds that infront of my house. and look what i've found - Wild Betta Raja - i caught around 4 , but i believe there's still hundred of them in the ponds .


they are nice. will you still be catching them again?


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## Nismo83

more on my B.Channoides (they are kept in my office). these pictures were taken last week. I will post a video of them taken this morning once it is loaded onto photobucket. :-D


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## Nismo83

Feeding time video.


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## evilone

Hi Nismo83, what are you feeding them with ? The Channoides looks very healthy


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## Nismo83

evilone said:


> Hi Nismo83, what are you feeding them with ? The Channoides looks very healthy


They are being fed on hikari frozen bloodworm, live brine shrimps. Now they are able to take hikari micro wafer. 

One male died at home after I brought him back to nurse his injury. He was injured from the fight. Now I'm left with 1m and 2f chans and 2m and 1f albi.


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## evilone

Dear Friends, 

just wondering, i've been trying to find out which one is male and which one is female for my betta. 
Anyone can advise ? also is this the right betta ? betta raja ? 

I've trying to breed them, but end up fighting each other . One case one of my betta fins are gone, because of the fighting


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## evilone

Nismo83 said:


> they are nice. will you still be catching them again?


Hi Nismo : definitely :-D , will do it in this coming holiday season .


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