# Betta with indent or sunken in nose portion; possible hole in head?



## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

My fish has this strange dent or hole above his upper lip about less than half a milimeter wide, but lengthwise goes across his face (parallel to the lip) for the length of his lip. 

Any help or ideas is greatly appreciated! 

Housing 
What size is your tank? 2.5 gal
What temperature is your tank? between 70-74 (our house makes it hard to keep an even temp; my fish has been living in a changing temp all his life, so he's as used to this as possible)
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? with an exterior lamp
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari betta bio gold pellets, typically 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. Occasional freeze dried bloodworm (now that he will eat them) and biweekly frozen pea bits, weekly frozen brine shrimp.
How often do you feed your betta fish? twice a day, since it's a small amount

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 3 or 4 times a week, 10% ish each time so that in the course of a week it's 30-40%
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? see above
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? since i use bottled distilled water, with some spring water mixed in to get the pH to stay around 7, i do not use additives.
(my well water is like liquid rock/super high pH, so i can't use it)

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
I tested them last week.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0 
Nitrate: between 10 and 20, the colors on that chart are so close that 20 and 40 look identical to me. 
pH: right now is 6.9
Hardness: i don't know since i don't have this kit
Alkalinity: ditto

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? He's had a bump on his nostril for over a month. He had the same problem last year, and I managed to treat that successfully. I thought it would run the same course this time but it didn't. 
I looked at him today and there is a noticeable dent in his face between his lips and his eyes! 
I also noticed yesterday he either injured his bottom fin or he's got some fin rot there... which is weird.
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? He's been hiding a lot lately, and he's been jumpy/jittery. He's not eaten today. He would be interested in food, bite at it, but not get it, and then back off. This is not his typical aggressive self. I fed him some pea just a few minutes ago, but he barfed it back out. I'll try again in a little bit. (he's hiding in his castle right now. :\ )

In fact, he hates pictures, but he held still while I photographed him today. He's never held still like this before. (my camera is red... and you know how male bettas love/hate red)

When did you start noticing the symptoms? The bump was ongoing, so I wasn't concerned, but the hole/dent I just noticed today. As for the fin injury, I'm not concerned since I know he does it to himself and he typically heals up just fine - but I thought I'd mention it in case it may be relevant. 

Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? When the bump resurfaced I put a little salt (by a little, i mean less than 1/4 tsp in the 2.5 gal tank) in and also about 2 drops of Stress Coat plus. 
I know, some people hate salt, some people hate Stress Coat. 
Typically I run my tank without either in the water unless I see he's hurt a fin, then I add a few grains of the salt to help ward off fungus as the rips heal. 
He's never exhibited problems with salt or stress coat in the past.

Does your fish have any history of being ill? I hope I've documented this well enough above. Last year he had a bump on his nose, it went away, went to the other nostril, then went away. I decided, with the help of this forum, it was probably lymphocystis. Frequent water changes, and a little salt really helped him. 
I'm worried because this dent in his face is new, and I don't know what it is or how to treat it. 

How old is your fish (approximately)? About 2 years old. 

Maybe I should also mention there is a slimey film on top of the water. It goes away when I change the water, but it doesn't take long for the slime to come back (about a day or 2). It cakes on the edge of the sponge. It's white on the sponge/hanging out on the sides of the filter. 
I remove as much as I can when I do a water change. 

Here are some pictures. 

As you can see, it's not a smooth line from the top of his head to his lip. It used to be smooth. 









Here, you can see the slime on the top of the water. His eye to the left of the picture, down from it there's a white spot and then across there's another white spot.. That gash/dent thing there that's a white and darker red is what I'm talking about. That's not his mouth--that's the dent in question. 









Here's another side shot where you can see the dip in his face. (please excuse spots. heh. i don't wipe the outside of the tank all the time. it's the inside that counts, right?)









This last one I edited with yellow arrows to point at the dent. That whole strip there is indented or sunken in.  









(took these pictures before doing the water change today. it's clear ontop now)


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## orphansparrow (Apr 30, 2011)

oh, that's really strange. =( i don't have any advice for you, i just wanted to mention that my guy's water does the exact same thing. sort of a clear film that turns white when broken apart. weird!


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

Orphansparrow - Thanks that is helpful and relieving to know at least.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

XiaoYu said:


> Housing
> What size is your tank? 2.5 gal
> What temperature is your tank? between 70-74 (our house makes it hard to keep an even temp; my fish has been living in a changing temp all his life, so he's as used to this as possible)
> Fish do not get used to fluctuations.. each time the temp fluctuates too quickly up and down it is putting the fish at risk for shock and death. A betta is a tropical fish, and requires a stable temp of around 78-80; 70-74 is real cold in their world.. a few degrees makes a difference in their overall health and life span. Kept in cold waters will lower their immunity, cause a slower metabolism and lethargy and could reduce their life as they will be more susceptible to problems.
> ...


I don't mean to sound rude, but wanted to point out a few possible changes to help keep your guy healthy as he gets into old age.. I wish I could be more help with the dent, but other then just keeping his water clean, I don't think there really is anything one can do until he starts exhibiting other signs of illness, or the bump gets bigger. As for him hiding more- he may be stressing out, which would also be why he isn't eating. The water may be too cold, or needs to be changed. I would do a 50% water change today and tomorrow to help remove the salt (if he wasn't acclimated properly, it could have an affect on him.. the older they are, the less they tolerate), and hopefully the water changes will be enough to bring him back up in spirits- you'll be surprised what a decent water change will do. Siphon each week to make sure the waste is picked up to avoid ammonia from spiking.

Good luck and keep us updated.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Just because I said a lot and doubtful it will allow me to post more.. let me give you a bit of something to help you out, as I know how it feels when worry strikes..

Lumps, and bumps are almost impossible to diagnose. It may be a tumor, or maybe even a boil. If it is a boil, it will come to a head, and disappear... 

If you feel hopeless and want to try something- remove him from his tank and the AQ salt, and place him in QT with 1 tsp of fragrance/dye free Epsom Salt per gallon- as with all salt treatment, 100% daily water changes will be needed, replacing with new Epsom Salt each time- it may help with any swelling he has, go ahead and keep him in there for 3-5 days with the Epsom (and daily 100% water changes) if you decide to go this route.. while he is in the Epsom salt, you can do the water changes on his home tank to clear out the AQ salt. 
If the lump on the head does not go away, it may be a tumor- and if that is the case there is nothing you can do, just keep up on the water changes to keep him healthy. 

Unfortunately, lumps and bumps can be any number of things when it comes to a fish..


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

Mmm, I understand. 

The fluctuation is gradual. I don't let it bob up and down wildly. It goes around 70 at night right now, and as the day heats up the water will slowly go up to 74, sometimes 76. 
He actually prefers it around 74-76... In the summer at 80, he really just gets mellow. (our house sucks for regulated temps) I'd use a heater---but the tank is acrylic and only 2.5gallons. Can you put a heater in an acrylic tank? 

The lamp does heat it. I've noticed the difference with it on versus off. I'd use the aquarium light, but the light makes the tank like a mirror box... Talk about stress. 

As for food... 
I usually even forget about changing up the food. He might get a tiny bit of pea once a month. Just recently he was acting a little bloated (swimming a little funny) so I gave him pea. He seemed fine with it. Got better.
Only fed him pea this time since he couldn't or wouldn't eat the pellets. 
I guess it's a brine shrimp day tomorrow if he won't eat hard food.
I do understand that bettas are carnivores. But I've read vitamins are good for them once in a while. Pea does contain small amounts of vitamin A. (and yeah, pea is great for constipation)

50% twice a week? For serious? I've read quite a few guides and most recommended 30-40% a week. 
I guess I can try. 

I do vacuum my gravel every time I do a water change. I just didn't think to add it to the list. And I scrape the algae too, if you really care to know.

My well water pH, sitting still, is an 8.0. With a filter running (which adds oxygen, an alkaline) who knows how high the pH would run... probably close to a 9. The water is full of calcium and lime. 
I can't chance it. I'd rather add additives. Are there any good brands?

I also read a ton on pH. I'm not stupid enough to use pH up or down. 
If I do ever end up using something, it will be a small piece of 'for aquariums' driftwood. (and i'll test its potency first, trust me, i read all about pH change shock... ugh.)

--
An abscess is possible. 
I don't simply toss in salt. I look at my chart and determine, mathematically how much salt could be in there (based on percents changed in a week, and the amount added the last time any was added). When I dose, I do tend to underdose - in hopes that a little less would do the trick and be less offensive to him.
Typically there is no AQ salt in his environment. I weaned him off it since the last major bump issue. 

You could be very right that it's a bump between his eyes and not a dent. 
That was my first thought looking at it. 
Since he's a red fish, it's hard to tell what is redder or more inflamed. 
I wouldn't say it's healed - since this is a new condition. 

Can't tell from the pictures- is the fin just missing sections, or are the edges black and crusty?
Which fin? His anal fins have some black edges, and the one lost a piece and it never grew back (so one's longer than the other). 
His pectoral fins have black edging. 
All of his other fins don't have black, but the new rot or damage I referred to is on the bottom fin toward the front. It looks like he damaged it, probably swimming into his castle. 

My Charlie is usually one active little booger. He's not afraid of much, and his first reaction is flare and attack. He hates it when I wear red or blue - he's more likely to come at (and attack) the side of the tank when I stand there in those colors. 
If I put my red camera near the tank, usually he flares and swims like a maniac trying to scare it away. 

Anyway. 
I can try changing the water more at a time, and I can try to keep it a little warmer. 

Thank you for taking the time to write that all out.


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

This morning he wasn't interested in food at all. He didn't even try to eat a pellet. 
All he would do is lay still as death in the bottom. I could see his gills moving a tiny bit. 

Now at noon I tried once more to get him to eat. When he 'woke up' from one of those sleepy states, he swam up, attacked the food, like one head long rush and did a quick turn, slamming part of himself against the side. It was like he was trying to steal his food and make a quick get away. 
He went and laid on his side in the bottom behind the plant with the pellet half hanging out of his mouth. He's showing almost no movement, in that betta coma. I can see his gills moving. 

I feel guilty. I shouldn't have given him a pellet. I should have defrosted some brine shrimp. 

The diving at food on the surface is a new behavior. He's only been doing it this last week. Scares me.

...it's a random thought but maybe he developed this head bump in one of his crazy food attacks?


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## orphansparrow (Apr 30, 2011)

i want to mention about the heater, i have one that i use in my 2.5 gallon glass tank, but i also used it before in my 2 gallon acrylic tank i had a couple months ago. i keep a sticky thermometer on the outside, and it keeps the temp. from fluctuating. i got mine from walmart for about 6 bucks. it's not the best, but at least it keeps the temp. more even throughout the day and night.


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks! That's very helpful! 
I wasn't sure if I could even use a heater in an acrylic tank, but if you did so can I. In the 2 gallon, what wattage did you use?


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

Small update - Charlie seems a little better today. 

I've been vigilant to keep the temp at 76. And I'm trying the 50% twice a week, as recommended. 

He ate about 4 brine shrimp and was actually more interested in food. And he's not coma-sleeping as much. 

As for the bump.... it kind of looks like a double bump - one in each nostril with a big swollen spot in the middle. I noticed the right nostril had some white stuff coming out of it. (pus? fungus?)
Since the treatments for bumps/scrapes and hole in head are similar (barring the antibiotic route) I'm going to follow that regimen and see where we go. 

Thanks for all your help, Myates and orphansparrow!


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

XiaoYu said:


> he swam up, attacked the food, like one head long rush and did a quick turn, slamming part of himself against the side. It was like he was trying to steal his food and make a quick get away.


Looks like Myates had everything covered, and you seem to have everything together. I just want to reassure you about the above behavior. My eldest does this everytime I feed him. He will lunge for the pellet like he hadn't eaten in ages and in such big force. Sometimes with the water movement, the pellet drifted to the side of the glass, and when he lunges for it, it somehow got stuck on his lip, it's rather comical to see him trying to dislodge the pellet. I attribute this to their genetic make up where in the wilds, they would be required to jump out of the water to catch their preys in a fast and furious movement. For your betta, it may not seem ordinary, it could simply be that your betta didn't eat breakfast, so for sure he wasn't going to miss lunch this time, so he was a bit enthusiastic  

I will let Myates answer the rest of your questions as she is an expert here.

Just want to wish you good luck and him a speedy recovery.

Cheers!


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks earthworm88. 
Your story is cute. ^-^ Bettas are pretty aggressive. So adorable though...even if it's dumb and they hurt themselves too.

Yeah, Myates was impressively thorough. 
She's right, based on what is known of fish diseases and all, the only really good treatment is aggressively maintained water. 
(tbh, reading what she wrote makes me feel guilty. i do the best i can, but i know it's not perfect. i wish to do better. and my family thinks i'm crazy - the lengths i'll go to to preserve one little fish!)

Charlie has been doing a little better every day. Yesterday the swelling went down. I can see his nostrils are a little blackened/darkened. His face is a little sunken in around his lips. 
He would try to eat a pellet, bite it and give up. I think it hurt him? 
He was happy enough to eat brine shrimp. 
Today he finally ate pellets again (which is nice. frozen food takes time to defrost to room temp). 
He's flaring, acting big and scary, and is interested in what is going on around him again. ^__^ (much better than sees a shadow and hides)


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

XiaoYu said:


> Thanks earthworm88.
> Your story is cute. ^-^ Bettas are pretty aggressive. So adorable though...even if it's dumb and they hurt themselves too.
> 
> Yeah, Myates was impressively thorough.
> ...


It's good to hear he seems to be doing better. I hope Myates will respond to the little white wiggly thingy that you saw earlier, try PM her or Sakura8 or OFL to see if they can give you any advice. For now, I would suggest feeding him softer food like your frozen stuff or cut the pellets further into halves for ease of "chewing". Whatever he is having around his mouth/nose/face area, it gotta be hurting :-(

You know, all our circumstances are different, no one is perfect, we can only try the best that we can, as we learn more everyday, if it's in our power to change and are willing to change, you know you will have no regrets. Her advice is not only for you, but to anyone who reads your thread so we can all learn from it. This is a great forum full of awesome people. 

I like your moniker....it means "little fish", doesn't it? 

Cheers!


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

earthworm88 said:


> It's good to hear he seems to be doing better. I hope Myates will respond to the little white wiggly thingy that you saw earlier, try PM her or Sakura8 or OFL to see if they can give you any advice. For now, I would suggest feeding him softer food like your frozen stuff or cut the pellets further into halves for ease of "chewing". Whatever he is having around his mouth/nose/face area, it gotta be hurting :-(
> 
> You know, all our circumstances are different, no one is perfect, we can only try the best that we can, as we learn more everyday, if it's in our power to change and are willing to change, you know you will have no regrets. Her advice is not only for you, but to anyone who reads your thread so we can all learn from it. This is a great forum full of awesome people.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I am glad I always buy the baby pellets. Even within the package there are various sizes, and I shake out the tiniest ones. Like smaller than a mustard seed size. XD I'll definitely cut the larger ones. 

Mmm. Well said!! 

Thanks. Yep. It's Mandarin 小魚 (xiao3 yu2) for 'little fish'. ^-^ 

Charlie's about the same today - still dented but has more fighting spirit. <3


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Aww thanks earth, but I'm not really an expert- just a stay at home mom with too much on her hands from time to time  You are very knowledgeable yourself!



XiaoYu said:


> Small update - Charlie seems a little better today.
> 
> I've been vigilant to keep the temp at 76. And I'm trying the 50% twice a week, as recommended.
> 
> ...


Do you have a magnifying glass to look at him more closely? If the white stuff looks to be stringy, moving then I would say he has parasites.. which are surprisingly common in fish. If it looks like a milky substance then possible slime coat sloughing off. If it looks thicker, with possible tiny hairs coming out then I would go with fungus. But at this point if it were anything major you would be seeing more symptoms, from stringy white waste to more of the white substance over the body. I am hoping he isn't infected though- any chance on a new picture, possibly with a flash on or a flashlight lighting him up? I am wanting to see the difference in color variations between him and the area in question.



XiaoYu said:


> Charlie has been doing a little better every day. Yesterday the swelling went down. I can see his nostrils are a little blackened/darkened. His face is a little sunken in around his lips.
> I mentioned the coloration already- this could be from the swelling receding and in a sense, he is bruised. But want to double check how he looks to make sure.
> 
> He would try to eat a pellet, bite it and give up. I think it hurt him?
> ...


Glad to hear he is doing better overall. Continue the Epsom until the swelling has gone all the way down, or minimum of 90% decrease to give him the best shot of finishing the healing process. Tell him to stop smacking into the glass. 
Keep an eye out for the return of the white stuff- unless it's still there, and if so then try to describe it the best you can, or snap a picture of it. I don't want to think it's anything significant, but one can't be too careful.


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## earthworm88 (Jul 8, 2011)

XiaoYu said:


> Thanks. Yep. It's Mandarin 小魚 (xiao3 yu2) for 'little fish'. ^-^
> 
> Charlie's about the same today - still dented but has more fighting spirit. <3


Cool! Are you Chinese or learning Mandarin? 
Keep up the good work! 



myates said:


> Aww thanks earth, but I'm not really an expert- just a stay at home mom with too much on her hands from time to time  You are very knowledgeable yourself!


You are too kind. I definitely don't have much experience, just lots of reading and learning from you guys in this forum 

Cheers!


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

Myates said:


> Aww thanks earth, but I'm not really an expert- just a stay at home mom with too much on her hands from time to time  You are very knowledgeable yourself!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The white stuff, I've seen before, off and on - always on the bump(s) on either nostril. I could never decide what it was either. It's kind of stringy, and it will wash off if you pour a little water on him (he gets curious when i pour water in the tank, and sometimes swims under the little stream of fresh water... and that's how i found out the white stuff would rinse off.) 
Based on all that information, perhaps it's the slime coat? I recall once being able to scoop up the washed off white thing. It was a little solid, slightly yellow, but didn't resemble a parasite (no segments, no definitive head, eyes, parts - though i'm no expert on parasites.)

I can try my best to get a picture, but he doesn't have it at the moment. When it shows up again, I will try my best though. Flash is no problem, just catching him asleep or holding still is! 

Anyway, the space around his mouth still appears a little sunken in. I could try to take a picture of that. 
Last year he lost interest in pellets for a while, and only ate soft foods. That was actually when his bump first appeared. 
Normally the only thing he refuses are freeze dried bloodworms. Ha. I wouldn't eat them either. 
He's still on a one pellet at a time basis, but I'm fine with that. I don't mind going in several different times to feed him. (i also am dropping the pellet in the center of the tank - so if he feels like thrashing while eating he won't hit anything. they're like little sharks, aren't they?)

Are there any good general rules on feeding brine shrimp? Like once a day? I've never fed him so much brine shrimp/in consecutive days like this. I know if I over feed him, he could bloat and that's no fun. 

Anyway, thanks for all your help!


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

earthworm88 said:


> Cool! Are you Chinese or learning Mandarin?
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Cheers!


I've been learning Mandarin for 3 or 4 years. It's such a fun and challenging language. 
Xie ni!


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## XiaoYu (Apr 29, 2011)

I took these yesterday, and finally got the time to upload them now. 

You can see that it is a little bit of a dent around his top lip.


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