# Outside spawn



## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Outside in a 5g bucket that collects rainwater and that I keep native oak leaves in that also had a massive amount of mosquito larva.
I also placed some live plants in this bucket-hygrophila, water lettuce, ludwigia from a trimming to give them something to hide in.
I placed 2 female bettas to condition them for breeding after two days I placed the male betta with them and they started the spawning dance the second I placed the male in the bucket
Within 30 min he was spawning with both females
This bucket gets about 6 hours of sunlight, water temp in the upper level is 82F
You can even see some eggs on top of the leaf
Here is a pic of the nest


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## NIB BETTA (Apr 21, 2010)

Wow. When you think about it, this is as close as you can get to a natural environment. Is this your first time using this method? What do you do about water changes?


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## Zoelie (May 14, 2010)

That's really cool  Never seen an outside spawn before ^.^


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

It sounds very interesing. Keep us posted.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, this is the first time I tried it in a 5g bucket, I spawned some last spring and summer in a 250g tank outside...... it was kinda a last minute thing I decided to do, I had trouble getting this male to spawn and the females both were ready and thought I would try and it worked.
Due to all the rain we have been getting the mosquito are thick in all my 5g rainwater/oak leaf buckets (20) I am collecting and freezing and feeding them as fast as I can....

I just checked on them and the male is tending the nest and keeping the 2 females away and they don't seem that interested in the nest anyway.
I am going to keep them all together for now...but I think I may pull the eggs as they hatch, still not sure what I am going to do yet, kinda play-it-by-ear......lol......

I won't be making any water changes since it will get refreshed every time it rains and it has been raining 2-3 times a week, I placed screen on an overflow hole so that the fish are not washed out of the bucket.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

1. Did you say the male spawned with both females? .... wow... never saw that before.
2. You're using direct rain water? Mine always die if I do that..... why?
3. I would remove the females before the eggs hatch... just in case.

BTW I use buckets too; D 50-55cm (+/-) height 25 cm, filled to 5 - 10 cm water + plants 1/4 - 1/2 of bucket.

Good Luck. Keep us posted.


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## Campbell (Apr 12, 2009)

This is really interesting. I can't wait to see how everything turns out.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, they both spawned with him and they spawned again yesterday, I was going to remove the females but I really have them in the bucket for skeeter control because they are so bad this year, and I had so much trouble with this male getting him to spawn for me and now he doesn't have a choice because the females are pretty aggressive and want to spawn.
I am leaving the eggs and fry that have hatched and removing him today to spawn him again in a couple of days for the fry in a controlled environment.

I don't expect the fry to survive, but they may, the water is dark brown from the tannins of the oak leaves and full of life-so I know they will have plenty of food and hiding places, it was two good females and a male so the fry will be quality and a neat experiment on several levels.

In my area I feel the rainwater is safe, but when you change the fish to rain water it has to be done slow so not to shock them from the different chemistry in the water, I do it over about an hour or two depending on if I had been keeping the Betta in the house in rainwater or not, I test pH, GH, KH, nitrate and temp...too sudden changes can kill the fish.

You may want to try testing your rainwater and source water after it has been aerated for 24 hours and equalize them by adding rainwater to the source water and Betta until it is 100% rainwater and see if that works.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I hope there aren't any dragon fly larva or other predatory life in there.

IMO; some of them should survive, at least the first month. Currently I don't really take care of my fry. I depend on infusoria for the first week then dump in some tubifex worms and daphnia. I get an average of 30 - 50. So with your condition, they should survive.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I hear ya on the dragonfly larva...laffs.....and I am sure there are some, but when small the adult Bettas will eat them, but I lost nearly all of a spawn last year from a hidden DF larva in my spawning tank that the male failed to eat, DF larva grow out nicely on Betta fry and guppy fry as well as grown guppies...the perils of feeding live home grown foods....good and bad...and a creepy looking critter too.......


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

neat, I hope you get some babies from them.


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## shinybetta (Jul 3, 2010)

Thats a cool way to breed!


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

That's a funky way to breed. But it's cool! Good luck!!


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## Astro277 (Jul 18, 2010)

I really think you should remove the females though...

IF the fry do hatch the females will eat them. If they dont it could cause the male to stress and eat them him self.

If you go to Bettysplenders she has posts about double breeding and such.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Last summer I did a spawn experiment on multi spawns and leaving both the male and female in the tank, and this was in the house and I used a 10g heavy natural planted tank, and neither the male or female ate the fry from the 6 back to back spawns, however, the older/bigger fry did eat some of their siblings, but thanks for your concern Astro....

In this outside spawn- they are continuing to spawn daily and I can see fry from the first and second spawn darting around in the plants as the male tends to the new nest under some water lettuce. I removed one female yesterday and plan to remove the other female today and also the male and put them in different but separate 5g buckets for continued skeeter control and monitor growth and development of the fry.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I have never heard of multi spawns being done even by the best breeders in SE Asia. Believe me, they are mass producers. They only breed several pairs in small containers then pour everything in a big grow out tank/pool. Great job!!!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I have read about multi spawns with one male and one female and I was successful last spring/summer in that experiment and the result of that produced the breeders (1 male/2 females) that spawned in this 5g bucket experiment.

note-I changed my mind and will be leaving the male with his offspring

One thing I have noticed with leaving the male longer with his fry is that as adults they seem to be less aggressive. I feared that this would be a problem with spawning them and it has to a degree: Of the 6 males that I kept-one male ended up being a great spawner but an egg eater and I never got fry from him after multi attempts, two males would never spawn, just not interested, and 2 great- both with the females and eggs/fry and one that should have been culled but too cute so he is a pet never to be spawned or sold.

The one male that I could never get to spawn I used in this outside bucket experiment and he didn't have a choice but to spawn due to the aggressiveness of the two females, within minutes of placing the male in the bucket he was attacked by the two females and they demanded to spawn..or else and this stimulated him to want to spawn I believe, I wish I would have video of this, it blew me away, I have never in the over 10 years of working with this species seen this... after about 30 minutes eggs were everywhere, but these two girls had also been feeding on massive amount of free range live foods and fat as ticks in tannin filled rainwater.

Spawning with more than one female is a first for me and due to the success I am starting a new experiment that I will document later.

In my opinion or observation, I am successful with this in part because of how these Betta were spawned and reared-in a more natural method or as natural as you can get in a closed system, because this has never happened nor would I have attempted this with the Bettas I have spawned when I used a bare bottom method.

It works for me now- since I am retired and have lots of time....


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

Fascinating...and kind of funny. lol poor boy fishy got jumped.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Sarada said:


> Fascinating...and kind of funny. lol poor boy fishy got jumped.


It was funny..teach him....laffs......

The fry are darting everywhere.....I tried to get a pic....but you can't see anything......


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

Do you plan to sell any of the fry?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I can't keep up with my buyer...lol...supply and demand, hopefully these new spawning methods will get me ahead so I can sell to others one day.


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm curious as to how this is going. Are they growing well outside? Do you keep betta's outdoors during the summer months?


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

WOW! That's amazing! It sounds like they're really enjoying the more natural environment! =]

I'd like to try this when I'm out of college and HOPEFULLY on the west coast. =]

All the acid rain we get here on the east coast kinda scares me. The condition of the buildings around here tells me that the rain probably isn't safe for fish. =[

So how are the fry and father doing? =] I bet your buyer will be really happy to have some non-aggressive or low-aggression males! =] I know I would be! =]


I forgot to include my horror:

Dragonfly larva eat baby fish?!?!?!?!? D,8 How awful! I LOVE Dragonflies. <=[ It's shocking that they would do such a thing! I guess that's where they get their name partially? Their aggression and ferocity? =[


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I am resisting temptation to bring the fry indoors.....lol
Some of the fry are 4 times larger than the other fry, I am sure that these are from the first spawn. They all look healthy and active, my one fear with this method is that they seem pretty wild and flighty due to lack of human contact/hand feeding. 
I do add 1 cup of green water every day for added food and some mosquito larva for the male.

Water temp has reached the upper 90F during the day and low-mid 80's at night and neither the fry or male seem to be distressed
It rained 2 nights ago, not much, and this cooled it down to 75F and the fry are still doing fine-water temp was back up to the 80's

This was another worry I had-the effect of temp swings, but it hasn't seemed to bother them. Of course-I can't get a good count due to housing, but viewing from above I can still see hundreds of fry. I tried to get pics...no luck you can't see the fry but they are growing fast, I didn't plan to feed, but I couldn't resist I had to at least add green water and larva...lol.... 

To date-this experiment is going well, I may bring the fry inside by this weekend, it may get over 100F outside and even with just 6 hours of sun-the water may get too hot. I will start adding my tap water to their bucket to wean them from soft rainwater.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

Cool! =]

I'm glad things are going well! 

What's green water? =]

And how do you get the larva from your outdoor buckets to your inside tanks to feed your inside fish? We have mosquito problems with a cauldron we keep outside. ( I know lol) So can I scoop them from that? there's an awful lot of decaying plant matter in there. =[ Mostly maple leaves. Are those toxic to bettas? we have 3 maple trees.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Green water-are buckets I set out in the sun and add hay, grass clippings, oak leaf to grow all different kinds of micro-critters for fry food.

I collect mosquito larva with a small meshed net and place them in fresh clean water, I pick out the non-living stuff and run the larva through the net again and rinse lightly under running water. The really tiny larva fall through the net and I use an eye dropper to feed these to my older fry I have in the house and I dump the larva I have in the nets into my other tanks and watch the feeding frenzy.

If the mosquito larva are alive/living in the bucket of water they should be safe to feed your fish, I would not add any of the mosquito larva water to the fish tank.
I don't know of safety issues with maple trees, but if the mosquito larva are alive it must not be too toxic.
Black walnut tree-all parts in large volumes have been known to be toxic to aquatic life, especially the nut hulls.


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## vaygirl (Sep 10, 2009)

It so neat how it's working out. This thread is fascinating!


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Amazing! I often keep males with many females and sometimes they would spawn. But only one female. 

I have a spawn going at present (impulse). It rained the last few days. I noticed that the temp didn't change much (28 - 29C or about 84F). So it wasn't temp that has been killing my spawn during bad weather (I haven't been using thermometers). .... unless the thermometer is faulty.
Your spawn has been exposed to temp change and survived. This shows that they are adaptive as long as it's not a sudden change. 

I hope to hear/read your experiment on multiple spawning...... I still can,t believe it...... Simply amazing!


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

Cool so I just net them, then after I rinse them I can add them to the tank and let genie eat them? =] Sweet! No more mosquitoes!!!!! 

Fortunately We have no black walnut trees! =] No worries there. Just pine and maple. =]

Oh hey. I can freeze the mosquito larvae right? like in ice cubes? So that if I have a lot that I can't feed to just one betta I can save them for later? =]


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I tried the freezing method on mosquito larva last year and it worked so well that I am doing it again this year, I use those little plastic to-go-type cup with lids you get a fast food places....worked great and I used an old cheese grater on the tiny hole part and grated the frozen skeeter on a paper plate to feed from....worked pretty well....


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Update-
I waited too long and the water got over 100F and a lot of the smaller fry died, I did save about 100 fry and move them into the house.

Spawning of the trio happened over several days and the fry range in size from "--" "----" the larger fry are nearly as big as some of my fry spawned in the house that are 2-4 weeks older.

Something interesting-when I was getting the tanks ready for the outside fry I use rainwater from their bucket, I noticed that I had too many large mosquito larva and about 10 or so of the really tiny fry mixed in the water in the inside tank that the fry would not be able to eat and I didn't want them to turn into mosquito and be in the house.
So I netted one of my large female Bettas and dropped her in the tank to eat the mosquito larva before I put the rest of the outside betta fry in the tank.
The adult female ate the mosquito larva and ignored the 10 or so tiny betta fry, she went toward them a couple of times but did not eat them...I was amazed as I truly expected her to eat them too and she was not the mother, she is an aunt though...but still I expected her to eat the fry........so she went outside with a couple of her sisters to join the male in a new tub I found for spawning.....

This morning the fry in their new home are doing fine, a bit on the wild side and skittish...but I expect them to calm down and become tame in no time. They will get some 10% daily water changes for the next week to get them adapted to my harder tap/well water and then move up in percent of water only changes until I reach 50% and teach them to come to the feeding tap, but first I have to teach them how to eat from me or the food I offer.
I tried to separate the large and small fry last night between the two tank I put them in...but I missed some...lol


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

100 degrees? Poor fishies. I guess you got a good aunt betta X.D Good luck!


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## SilverCaracal (May 9, 2010)

This is so cool!! Does the natural environment speed up the fry growth?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

It seems so...lol.....not 100% sure if outside-vs-inside fry rearing makes any difference in growth and development rate, but I think it would....I get pretty fast G/D in my inside natural planted tanks too, but the outside does have the added benefit of more live foods and free range feedings and this can have a big impact on growth IMO/E.
Time will tell....laffs......


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Update-
The fry I moved in the house (2 tanks) have been changed over to my well water without any problems, did have some deaths with the smaller fry. Growing and eating great and will come to the feeding tap..at least most of them, took a week or so to get them to calm down, a bit on the wild side...lol

Inside: fed-NHBBS, HUFA supplement BBS, daphnia, micro mosquito larva
Largest: TL (-----) 10g NPT approx-45-50 fry
smallest: TL (---) 3g NPT approx 10-15 fry

Outside: 5g bucket-fed 1cup green water-multi micro critters
largest: TL (-------)
smallest: TL (----)

I have tried to get pic but they come out too dark to see anything

I left some outside in the bucket, had no idea so many were left...at least 20 or more and they are growing great and tolerating high water temps in the 100+F range during the day and 95F at night, however, when I stick my hand in the water it is a bit cooler to the hand at the bottom.

Had a frog in the bucket the other day and it didn't seem to be causing any problems or appear to be eating the fry

In comparison to the outside and inside fry-I would say the outside fry are still out growing the ones in the house-but not by much.

The only food added to the outside fry is green water daily about 1 cup worth, plants growing like crazy and roots of the water lettuce are near 8in at least, water is a nice dark brown from the layer of native oak leaves at the bottom. I did add some snails at the beginning.

No water changes have been made and it stopped raining and we have been in a heat wave of sorts with temp in the 100's

I have been adding a bit of fresh well water every other day when I water the garden to keep the water level up due to evaporation and to start the acclimation process from rain water to well water

I still plan to keep them outside for as long as I can..it is tempting to bring them in...lol.....but I would like to try and keep them outside until water temp reach 76-78F at night....a break in the weather is expected next week...I hope......


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

Glad to see your outside spawn is doing so well! =] They're so much bigger than the inside spawn! =]


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## BettaBoy84 (Jul 25, 2010)

This had been an amazing thread to keep up with, thank you so much OFL for keeping us updated. If you haven't read the start of this threat Its worth goin back and reading it, very cool!

I would love to see some pictures of the tank set up outside OFL, sounds like you have an amazing outdoor tank going! I wish I had done something like that earlier in the season, (as I live in Ontario, and have colder weather on its way in a few months).

Look forward to the update..

BETTA BOY


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks...however, this set-up is nothing more than a 5g bucket...nothing fancy...lol...cheap and easy to access...not even sure what it was used for before I used it for collecting rainwater and now for bettas......


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> Thanks...however, this set-up is nothing more than a 5g bucket...nothing fancy...lol...cheap and easy to access...not even sure what it was used for before I used it for collecting rainwater and now for bettas......


This makes it more interesting - natural environment - and has worked better for me compared to "clean" tanks. 

Thanks for the update.


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

Amazing, OFL. You never fail to entertain me!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I wish I could try that but Colorado has bi polar weather so one minuet they'll be spawning and the next frozen in the bucket (kinda like the Ice Age squierrel thing who always wants the nut LOL).


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I wouldn't try it in Colorado. lol


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## prettylittlefishy (Aug 12, 2010)

Its worse in Michigan.


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## purplemuffin (Aug 12, 2010)

Texas is pretty bad too  We get 110 degree weather for a week...90s the rest of the summer.. but then when it's time for winter, down to the 20s! And we don't get snow often either, but when we do it just turns to ice because of the heat still left from the sudden weather change!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Up-date:
Fry still doing well, water temp staying in the mid to high 90's now due to heat wave, I started to add fresh well water daily to get them changed over from the rainwater, plan to bring them in the house in a couple of week. Food is still a daily cup of green water and a scoop of the smallest mosquito larva I can find added every other day.

I hope to see growth spurts in the fry with the removal for rainwater and addition of fresh water......

Due to no water changes and high amount of stunting hormone over half the fry outside are pretty small along with about 8 really big one at least twice the size of their siblings that came in the house. Also note that the ages between the fry are about 1 week difference and this can be part of the reason as well.

In a different outside spawn-the same breeders from this one-I placed them in a styrofoam cooler (approx 5-8g) and add a 3rd female-lot of plants, the cooler is sitting at an angle so one end is deeper than the other-the male chose the deepest end for his nest.

I never seen any spawning so I can't say that the male spawned with all 3 females, but I can say that I have seen multi nest and multi fry of different ages and just seen some newborns yesterday and another nest

Every time I dump a load of fresh mosquito larva in-I will see a new nest

What is interesting about this to me.....over the past 30 days with 1 male and 3 females in this set-up and I still have lots of fry from 4 weeks to newborn and fins mostly intact on the adults

This is something that I have observed in all my breeding set-ups, both inside and out-female not eating the fry and males not eating fry of other males...this has surprised me.....

Due to all the plants in my spawning tanks/containers-I can't get all the fry out (java moss) and so some are left (smallest/stunted/usually 1-2 fry) with the thought that the new breeder will eat them...no go...not eating them and this is a problem of sorts because the older fry are eating some of the newborn fry...I seen that myself...lol..... but if this is the only bad thing that happens with this type of natural set-up...I'll take it.....lol....as the older fry don't seem to be able to get/eat that many fry and if the older fry is emitting any stunting hormone it is not much because growth and development has not been affected, especially after the new fry are 10d and older-I still end up with a good number of fry...still wish I could catch that rouge fish...lol.....


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Pics..

5g bucket that I started with-the plant on top is water lettuce started in an aquarium- on the last pic is a shot of water lettuce that was removed from the pond that is in full sun...it can get pretty big in full sun....









The cooler with the 1 male and 3 female and lots and lots of fry at different stages of growth and development









A shot of both the 5g bucket (next to the shed) and cooler to see their location-note: the bucket in front of the cooler is for mosquito larva growing/feeding

















This is a shot of a turtle sand box that I added water, plants, two large pieces of firewood or logs that still float and Bettas-2 male and 8 female-more for mosquito control-have seen nest but no fry, but it is also used for both the dogs and cats water and the dogs get in it to cool off...lol...Bettas don't seem to mind and not expecting fry anyway...just skeeter control....and of course my number one helpers..cats...laffs....


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't know how I missed this..... 

I used to do it similarly but had difficulty in water changing and fry monitoring. Water lettuces make it difficult to see what is below the water (unless it's in a glass tank). I even have difficulty in determining whether the spawning is done.

Water lettuces need a lot of sun which will create a lot of algae plus the muddy gunk (?). How do you control that? Do you ever clean out the bottom?

In general, you always use plenty of plants with soil floor plus dry leaves for your spawns. Do you clean out the bottom or do you only take out the water during pwc. If you only take out water, doesn't the wastes on the floor become toxic?

I'm trying to understand why with such set ups and without water changes for the first 4 weeks, I get more fry compared to clean set ups with water changes. Logically poo should become toxic (I leave the male) in about 5g water. But the fact is, it doesn't.
When not breeding, 5g water will become deadly if no wc are made in 4 weeks. I don't understand.....


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Plants function as the filter and water lettuce is one of the best for that IMO/E too, I keep it in all my tanks inside and they don't grow as big with the CFL but can get huge outside with direct sunlight, the long hanging roots are great for fry IME and also help with the gathering of critters for the fry to eat

I have other plants in the outside buckets too that normally would be planted but I left them in the water column due to the substrate being only a layer of oak leaves and what ever dirt and sand that was on them and naturally blown in

I don't have algae problems because of the plants-it is a fine line or balance in keeping the nutrients and lights so that the plants use everything up before the algae has a chance to get a foot hold-both inside tank and outside buckets.....the plants keep the water nice and clear except for the amber tannins of course...lol.....

My water prams stay 0ppm across the board, even the nitrate rarely reads due to the plants using ammonia as an energy source before it converts and any nitrate is used up as well...plants are said to use DOC's as well-they never leave the tank but are used by plants and converted so they are safe and not harmful to livestock in closed systems..this is still debated however....

The water lettuce roots are also an indicator for water column nutrient/minerals, if the roots break and fall or become stubby I know something is amiss in the tank and usually a water change will fix it

I am very lucky with my well water and the nutrient and trace minerals that it contains naturally

On my inside fry tanks-I do make water only changes for best growth and development and leave everything on the bottom-between the shrimp and snail they keep it free of anything toxic and all the plants use up the waste for plant food, but on my other natural planted tanks I don't make water changes but 1-3 times a year at most, just top offs

The key is lots and lots of plants to do the job of filtration-one or two plants won't do it even ten plants won't do it-nearly all the floor of the tank needs plants-fast growing stem type and floating plants but no so many that they shade the rooted plants...its a balance........


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

We had a cold front that came in and a lot of rain, the water temp in the bucket went down to 68F from 100F-fry are fine, however, they are not moving much and seem to be staying in the moss at the top and when I test the temp inside the moss it is 76F.
The day time temp is going to stay in the low to mid 80's for the next week and night time temp in the mid 60's
So I decided to bring the fry in the bucket in the house and I got pic of them in the holding container. I roughly counted 28....mostly white with a few blue, some color is starting to show up on the cambodians fins.

I left the male and 3 females along with all their fry outside to monitor temp tolerance.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

AWESOME!!!! It looks so natural which are my favorite kinds of setups (I'm planning 30 gallon sorrority with all live plants like a huge jungle of them and drift wood).


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

Betta fish fry...from somithing so small and not as pretty, to something so big and beautiful! Nice Job!


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## Sarada (May 11, 2010)

very cool


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Update:
Cold front gone and temps back up in the high 90's during the day and low 70's at night
Water temps are now holding at 80's during the day and 70's at night-
I move the original pair back from the styrofoam cooler back to the original 5g buck with an extra female making 3 females and 1 male- 
I seen a new nest yesterday and older fry that transferred with the adults 
Still a few fry in the styrofoam cooler, the water temp is still cooler in that one due to being styrofoam, I have it crammed packed with naja grass that I pulled from the 50g rainwater barrel that I put a different trio in so they would have room to swim
This 50g barrel is in full sun on the east side of the house and the water temp is in the upper 80's during the day and lower 80's at night-this trio are from the 250g tank behind the house that is in full shade under black bamboo and water temps had dropped to the low 70's and the Bettas seemed a bit stressed
The metal trash can that is half buried with a trio-I thought had died due to cold water as I could not find the fish- but I spotted a nest full of eggs and a few tiny fry swimming in it yesterday-it is holding a water temp in the mid 80's during the day and high 70's at night
The old sand box/dog water pool-Betta's MIA except for one female and it was moved to the original 5g bucket....not sure what happened to the fish, no bodies found so a snake could have eaten them-I know they did not get washed out when the storm came because I seen them after the storm, never did see any fry, did see lot of nest however...but I didn't really expect fry just set up more for skeeter control.

I have really been impressed with the way the Bettas both adult and fry have survived the temp swings and extreme water temps going from 100's to the lowest of 58F for short times without showing stress on the most part-some however seemed to be stressed more than others. The fry seemed to really adjust well to the extremes, the adults seemed to tolerate the lower temp if the container had access to full sun to warm the top layer of the water for them

I was also impressed with the number of fry that I got along with females in the container. I am sure some of the fry got eaten but a lot survived too

All adults appear to be in good health with bright colors and round stomachs, fins intact

Fry seem to be tougher than expected especially the ones that I missed and dumped in water without acclimation from soft rainwater straight to hard tap water that was pretty cold to boot. The fry hatched in cooler water seem to tolerate cooler water for longer periods of time as well, however, I would call it more survive than thrive as growth and development is slow. It is impossible to give numbers due to set-up designs as far as how many died or got eaten...but I got well over 100 fry from these set-ups that I brought in the house with fry still outside...survival of the fittest.........natural selection at its best......


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## Ariel1719 (Mar 29, 2009)

Wow, this is such an amazing cool thread! Deffinatly will be comming back to checkup.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Natural selection indeed. Fry do tend to adapt to their surroundings and become more tolerant than their parents. This includes to a more harsh water chemistry.


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## Learn To Fly (May 15, 2010)

Wow I read this whole thread and it's absolutely amazing! You've inspired me to want to breed, and I feel as though I could actually do it now! Now...to find a pair...lol. Good luck and can't wait to see how the fry turn out!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Update:

These Bettas have just amazed me over the past months-they are so much more tolerant of condition-namely temp swings and low temps-going and staying in the mid to upper 50's and 60'sF for several days-with mid 70's being the highest over the past couple of weeks and they appear to healthy.
However, due to the cooler water the fry are not growing as fast or big as their siblings in the house...so water Temp does matter.......

The 3F and 1M in the bucket continue to spawn and I see new fry along with older fry daily-and this is what surprises me...they continue to spawn in the cooler water....

Oddly enough-the trio in the 50g rain barrel that is in full sun and maintains a water temp in upper 70's to mid 80'sF have not spawned nor have I seen a nest-but-it also get lots of water movement when it rains

The fry that I left in the styrofoam cooler-look good-I did remove a few more (10) that are pretty large and at least 20 or more still in it, but hard to tell for sure- they are larger than I thought they would be in the cooler water but still not as large as the siblings in the house.....but-it is kinda hard to say due to multi spawns. I did move this cooler to a full sun location and temp has warmed up some 

All buckets still get a cup of green water and about a Tlb of live mosquito larva daily, no water changes-except for the rain water from natural source (the sky)...lol......and that will drop the water temp by 10-15 degrees for 24h

I don't remember if I posted this or not...but...a while ago when I first brought in some of the outside fry-I had missed some in the bucket and had dumped this water outside in some small bowls under the drip line of the house. I later noticed a couple of fry and netted them out and brought them in....well....I missed some...on my search for mosquito larva I stopped by these bowls a week or so ago and spotted 2 more fry-one white and one dark colored-both in good health, active and pretty hard to catch even in a small water bowl that had been getting lots of water turn over due to rain....I was impressed to say the least that these two made it and I swear they where not there before.....lol.....and it has been a while since I had done that....anyway, netted and moved to the styrofoam cooler-I should have brought them in the house but they are too small and the other would have eaten them...thought they would have a better chance outside...tough little fish......

The outside fry brought in the house are growing out nicely as well as the inside HMDT spawns-still a bit disappointed with them overall-I have maybe 60 or so fry from the two males and 7 spawns between them...those high dollar-high blood fish aren't always the best breeders...but the offspring look pretty good so far and growing fast....time will tell..........


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

Maybe this was in an earlier post... but I saw where you said you had the HMDT spawn going inside.

Which tail types did you try outside? Have you considered some of the other tail types outside?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

DT, ST, CT-outside and yes, come spring the HM and HMDT will be outside being experimented with...lol....I already have my plan written up on what I want to find out.


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## Raihana (Dec 21, 2010)

Awesome info! Your approach to bettas has been much the same as mine with the tarantulas I have kept 

My only concern with any attempts I make are that all I know about the "ideal" betta form & coloring is what I like, nonetheless I may attempt to replicate some of your experience this year with my favorite male 

What state do you live in if you don't mind me asking. I am in TN and I know from the past two years that a planted container is a great home for bettas in the summer. They come in looking much healthier & perkier than when they go out!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks, doing the natural method both indoor and out has netted me some really nice-strong-healthy Bettas that tend to be more tolerant to things like water temp, swings and each other-I have had less problems related to illness, deformities and the like with nature doing the culling for me and to the point that I can't keep up with demand of my unique little fish...pet quality-I don't show fish and no longer involved in the IBC....if you want show fish and get involved in that aspect of Betta keeping then you want to join the IBC and get a mentor along with top quality lines so you know what you will end up with when you spawn...but I found that I sell more to people that want a healthy pet with no interest in showing-however, I think the IBC and showing is also a neat aspect of the hobby that will give you lot of joy and the feeling of accomplishment from peers...so nothing wrong with either IMO...it is all in what you want and what you like...every ones "Ideal" fish is different on a personal level, however, with IBC you have standards-some folks that are more IBC oriented frown on my methods and feel that it weaken the species...not sure how-they either meet standard or they don't...its not like I am making two headed fish...lol....and I am not adding to over population any more than any other person that breeds...all of mine do get sold or given away....

Same as is the keeping and care...you have to find out what works for you in regards to what you have at hand, location and your goal..with this species of fish I have found to be one of the easier to care for and spawn...fish can be neglected in small containers just as they can be in a larger container...it just may take longer for it to happen......

Rambling on.....lol......I am in Oklahoma and we can get some crazy weather...we have a saying here..."If you don't like the weather wait a minute"..laffs.....
I am a retired person so I have lots of time on my hands and due to my background I enjoy conducting experiments and do lots of them...not truly scientific based...but hobbyist based along with years of experience in the hobby itself-plus being a naturalist I employ more natural methods with keeping, breeding, feeding and treating when the needs arise with good success...above all...I have fun and that is what this hobby like many hobbies should be....Fun......however, since we are dealing with live creatures you do have to be responsible and respectful of the animals under your care.....understanding that death, dying and culling are involved especially with the breeding aspect.....


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## Raihana (Dec 21, 2010)

Oh wow  I so agree with you!

I am more naturalist too. It does stink sometimes when the process of natural selection kicks in. I just lost my biggest spider, she had always been sickly though and lasted a good many more years in captivity than she would have ever had she been born in the wild.

With my aquariums I attempt to approach things as if to replicate, as closely as possible, the natural habitat and I find that, when I am successful, it is a winning achievement. It was the natural habitat of the betta that lead me to first attempt them outside. Here it is even commonly recommended to even add them to community aquariums (that would have strong filtration & etc) at more knowledgeable fish stores. They were amazed at my stories of no losses in container ponds and tried to argue that mosquito fish or rosy reds would be better suited. 

Personally, I have no interest in showing and you make a good point about most going into the pet industry. I also definitely understand being frowned upon by purists, with the tarantulas I have successfully kept communal tanks that others frown on. 

I definitely believe I will attempt breeding, I need to get a couple more females that I like  The overwintering tank for my water hyacinth and water lettuce should serve nicely as an overwintering tank for them too I would think.

So what is the minimum amount of space that you have successfully kept two males together in? Logic dictates that it is possible given that the flooded fields would be connected. I don't know that I am ready to attempt that but I am most definitely curious!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I have been successfully keeping mixed sexed Bettas in tanks as small as 20g for a year and going into 3 years in my 55g and 75g tank, however, I keep NPT or soil based that are massive planted and I mean massive plants-90-95% of the floor in plants with lots of tall plants that break the line of sight, however, at feeding time they feed together and I have zero torn/ripped/nipped fins-the older males have always been kept together from day of spawn to today unless they are removed to spawn-at first I had trouble adding them back after spawning but for whatever reason that is not an issue and they have tolerated younger males that I added this summer-right now I have about 25 males that range from 2.5 years to 3mo of age-I added one of the unrelated male that I got from a breeder and I did not have any fighting but his heavy fins caused him to have trouble so I had to remove him because he was struggling-but so far he is doing well in a 20g with mixed sexed Bettas that range from 2mo to 6-7 months...this has surprised me personally...I really thought I would have problems with him since he is fairly aggressive..now his brother will not tolerate any other Bettas unless he is spawning and then he is a pretty aggressive guy then too-but I have pretty aggressive girls so it evens out...lol.....I would never try this will 100% unrelated grown males however-they are Bettas after all and will fight even in a large heavy planted tank

I do have spawning going on all the time but no live fry and I don't expect any either due to the guppies and filtration in the tank-I have been getting nest and spawns in the 20g but with all the other Betta no fry and not expected...no filtration to worry about...I look at it like a nice high protein diet for them....and I kinda want to know who the female is too-I try to keep good records of the spawns.

Over the years I have changed a lot in the way I spawn and how I care for the spawns-I have found that they are a lot tougher than you think and sometimes too much intervention can cause more harm than good especially when it comes to water changes and feeding the fry-since I changed the way I did things I haven't had any fallers, belly sliders, swim bladder problems and I get better, faster growth-sometimes I get more fry than I really like to get-I like small survival rate in the 30-50 range-so much easier to work with smaller numbers.......they are aggressive but not so aggressive that they are trying to kill each other and still easy, willing to spawn...it works for me but I also have different type of setup than most people have-this wouldn't work in the standard bare bottom half full tank-that is also a great method that I did for years-a lot more work and then cupping/jarring 50-80 males with daily to every other day 100% water changes just took all the fun out of it, not to mention the health problems that would pop up from too sterile environment-kill the good bacteria along with the bad and it can all end up bad...lol....live an learn I guess...not that there is anything wrong with the standard methods-they are good methods too...just not for me anymore.....

Personally I don't like to compare the man made Betta with their wild cousin habitat, although they may be the same fish in reality- the man made Betta has never seen those water and they wouldn't survive in reality due to the long fins anyway,,,their native habitat is the home aquarium IMO...but that is jut me....lol.....


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