# New Keeper Syndrome



## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

There's a well-known, yet little understood phenomenon that overtakes newbies in various areas of animal husbandry. When given some advice, geared for first-time keepers to facilitate easy success in their new endeavor, they come to believe that certain guidelines were actually well-defined and irreproachable "rules", and take it upon themselves to judge every shop, keeper, or breeder they come into contact with based on these perceived "rules". 

Luckily, over time, most will get over it and learn (through research and experience) that the guidelines handed to them were very general methods for preventing their avarice from leading to certain failure. Yet, in the meantime, they seem to fall into this trap with little understanding of how it makes them appear...

The new dog owner is aghast when a white highland terrier is pulled out from a vermin's hole by its tail (it's designed for it!).

The new snake keeper becomes indignant when seeing a rack of "sweater/blanket boxes" used to house boas/pythons/corn snakes (vertical space is useless to a snake, who prefers horizontal space and actually finds comfort in small areas...hence their habit of sleeping in gopher holes and termite mounds).

New fishkeepers are ready to call the ASPCA when they see 1/2-gallon containers used (that's all a betta needs).

Unfortunately, as I've been involved in all three of the above examples of animal keeping for quite some time, I know this "syndrome" all too well.

For many of us, the response is pretty basic. :roll:

But sometimes, it's downright offensive! If what you learned in the first 6 months of animal husbandry was all there is to know, then the people that the newcomer loves to judge smugly wouldn't still be interested after decades of passionate involvement. When that newcomer bores and moves on to something new, the rest of us will still be plugging away with our hearts and minds content in the knowledge that we're still getting better and better at this gig, chuckling to each other as the new batch of fresh keepers comes by with the "holier than thou" arrogance of one who finally kept their animal alive for more than a month.

But, maybe...just MAYBE, they'll learn! 8)


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)




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## brancasterr (Mar 30, 2010)

Kittles said:


>


I am 12 and wut is this?


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## TianTian (Apr 14, 2009)

That would be a .gif file demonstrating an emotion in response to the first post.


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## TeenyTinyTofu (Feb 7, 2010)

Is that Lady GaGa wearing a Michael Jackson glove? LOL!


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

I agree with you Mister Sparkles (although you know where I stand with 1/2 gallons, don't you?  )

But what, did you run across a batch of deadly "new fishkeepers"? Hahaha goodness.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Brancasterr, no offense meant at all, but you are 12 and you haven't heard of Lady Gaga? 

THERE"S HOPE YET! Glad to know she hasn't taken over the world, just yet. 

Lady Gaga is a singer. I'm not sure what else to say about her. She has the weirdest (or apparently, "coolest") fashion sense, her songs are strange ... turn on the radio, and the chances of her being on it is about 1/2. Hahaha. I don't know what that is from though. 

Also, if you google her pictures, prepare yourself. There might be some skin.


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

Lol, abc, he was trolling.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

What? 

(I know what trolling is)


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## brancasterr (Mar 30, 2010)

Haha, I'm not 12 and I do know who lady gaga is. I just figured kittles would appreciate the follow up comment. Troll successful? Meh.


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)

Definitely appreciated, although look what I've done. 

In all seriousness, and in relation to Sparkle's post, I understand completely that it's a progressive system. Or something. Something progressive. Like Flo. And most things. Have to ditch the training wheels sometime.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Well that was embarassing. LOL. 

But really, it made me feel better "thinking" a 12 year old didn't know Gaga. So now, look what you've done. Ahahaha


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## brancasterr (Mar 30, 2010)

Haha, more of what I did kittles, I suppose if I didn't lead people to think something as appalling as a 12 year old not knowing who Lady Gaga was then everyone would have had a laughed at your post and continued on.


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## Sella (Mar 21, 2010)

"The new dog owner is aghast when a white highland terrier is pulled out from a vermin's hole by its tail (it's designed for it!)."

I don't understand this statement. The new dog owner is not supposed to be aghast when a dog is pulled from a hole by it's tail which is a continuation of it's spinal cord, and could possibly end up with nerve damage?


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## TheJadeBetta (Mar 31, 2010)

The West Highland Terrier was bred for it. Like how a Dachshund was bred to hunt and face badgers. When humans were developing this bred, that is what was mostly worked on. The tail is short and thick, and is shaped to were it won't have any problems.


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## TeenyTinyTofu (Feb 7, 2010)

The only problem I see, is the difference between telling someone a betta CAN live in 0.5 gallons of water, and saying it SHOULD live in 0.5 gallons of water.

Just because they can in the wild, does not mean that we shouldn't strive to give them a better habitat while they are in captivity. I see nothing wrong with guiding people towards a larger enclosure, such as 2.5 - 5 gallons, as opposed to telling them that a 1/2 gallon is perfectly suitable. 

There are no cons to a large enclosure, however there are many to a small 1/2 gallon enclosure, if someone isn't very keen on cleanliness of the enclosure. And most general joe schmoe betta keepers that buy them for their kids, are not all that keen on daily water changes. Something a 1/2 gallon enclosure would require.

So getting all upset when someone says a betta needs bigger than a 1/2 gallon enclosure is confusing to me. Yes, they can survive in it with proper care, but nothing wrong with going bigger, so that the betta can have more room to be comfortable.

While some betta's do live in the wild in area's not much bigger than a 1/2 to 1 gallon of water, it's also natural and out in the wild, with clean rain and fresh air. Not an enclosed plastic container with stagnant water. 

And when the rainy season comes, that 1/2 gallon swells to many gallons, not including all the betta's whose natural habitats are large rice paddy's and small streams.

Nothing wrong with educating people that while they can survive in a 1/2 gallon of water, going bigger can only be an enhancement on the life of the fish.


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## TigerLily (Sep 17, 2009)

Not to keep beating a dead topic...but on the discussion of space for bettas, I am definitely one of those people who find the half gallon containers to be sub-par.

Sure, if I shove her litter box in there and add food and water bowls, my cat could live in my bathroom, or even closet. She would have oxygen and water and food and toys and clothes to sleep on and a light to see by. She would have (limited) room to climb and play. She wouldn't be in pain or exposed to extreme discomfort...but hey, wouldn't she be happier running around the whole house?

As a pet owner, survival alone is not enough for me. When a human takes responsibility for an animal, it becomes our job to provide that animal with the best conditions we can. Best. Not the minimal conditions to survive in. Not just a home free of pain, filth or hunger.
Best.

If you can keep your pet in a half gallon container, care for it well and in the end have a healthy, thriving fish: That's wonderful. It really is. Many animals do not even get that much out of life. But really, why not give a little more?
There's absolutely no reason not to.


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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

I stand with TigerLily. But there really is no harm in telling a 1/2 will work. It's really for the sake of ACTUAL experience and knowledge. It's best to understand all standpoints before making your own. 

Usually, with new fishkeepers, they aren't entirely attracted to the idea of doing *daily* water changes in a 1/2 gal, and aren't attracted to spending money, either. I feel uncomfortable at the thought of a new fishkeeper and a 1/2 gallon (let's face it, I did this too). While some are very capable and even possibly aware of the water changes, the majority are not. 

TeenyTiny - the main con of a larger aquarium is money. Some people WILL cheat the money and just go for the smaller enclosure, because well, "I just saved myself 10 bucks." Not everyone will be so interested in fish hobby at first, that they will spend $$$. Usually, they'll quit after a few dead fish...hopefully.


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## breannakristine (Mar 26, 2010)

1/2 gallons are fine. That's what I use when I first get a fish as "hospital bowls" if you want to call them that. Sometimes the 1/2g is what the fish will live in for weeks or months until I can save money to get a 2.5g or more. 

There is nothing wrong with it as long as you don't over plant it. I normally just have 1 small silk plant which gives the fish more room to swim. -shrug-


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I keep mine in smaller containers but I say get the biggest tank that you can afford and have space for. I dont have that much space for several 10 gallon divided tanks. Not to mention money for all that stuff.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

TeenyTinyTofu said:


> The only problem I see, is the difference between telling someone a betta CAN live in 0.5 gallons of water, and saying it SHOULD live in 0.5 gallons of water.
> 
> Just because they can in the wild, does not mean that we shouldn't strive to give them a better habitat while they are in captivity. I see nothing wrong with guiding people towards a larger enclosure, such as 2.5 - 5 gallons, as opposed to telling them that a 1/2 gallon is perfectly suitable.


No, no! :roll:

You see, the difference isn't about anyone saying that they SHOULD be limited to small enclosures! There isn't a single person telling ANYONE that! Not anywhere! 

The difference is in people saying that the 1/2-gallon is cruel, or even insufficient, treatment. You can go and observe any conversation with an experienced keeper discussing "conditions" with a "high-and-mighty" newbie, and it's NEVER about the experienced keeper "ADVISING" someone to keep the smallest container they can. It's about the newbie claiming that the larger aquarium is the ONLY thing that satisfies a fish's needs, and saying that anything SMALLER than a 5 gallon is "cruel", or even claiming that it "only provides for the 'minimum' needs". Nothing can be farther from the truth! 

To completely obliterate all of your claims about "space," all you need to do is drop a healthy betta into a 29-gallon aquarium by itself. Good water, good temps, and lots of space...all conditions are pointing to an ideal enclosure for a betta. So why is your betta hiding in the substrate, flashing, and exhibiting basically every symptom in the book for stress?????? I've NEVER seen a betta in one of my 1- or 2-gallons doing this! NEVER!!!!!!!! :shock:

No one is advising AGAINST having a 2.5 or 5-gallon aquarium for a betta. But claims that this size is "better for the fish", or "the minimum size for the fish", are completely unfounded and simplistic. Bettas are hardy fish, which is why new keepers are more likely to get one! They are forgiving to a great many mistakes that new aquarists will make. Guess what? So are larger aquariums! So, hey, if you want to advise someone to get a larger aquarium...FINE! But do it for the RIGHT REASONS! ;-)

False analogies and other crap aside, a 1/2-gallon or 1-gallon nano-quarium can be a VERY successful venture. It's just hard to maintain. I'm "road-testing" a 10-watt Marineland aquarium heater right now...all signs point to it being a MAJOR headway into taking a great deal of the problems out of nano-keeping in one fell swoop (79-degrees and holding in a 1-G nano)! This doesn't remove the water-quality requirements of keeping fish or anything, but it has always been a major obstacle to those of us who like to keep "nanos". My fish live for years...as long as your average betta (no matter how big their aquarium is!). They are healthy, active, and responsive. They pace, build bubble-nests, eat and exhibit all the same signs of a healthy betta that you would expect! Don't you DARE call the care I provide "insufficient" or "cruel". Whether it's a 1-gallon or a 20-gallon, NEGLECTING minimal weekly water changes and FAILING to provide adequate filtration, water changes or hiding places is the only cruelty we need to be wary of! Many a betta in a 10-gallon standard aquarium I've seen are much more neglected than mine, or many others in "bowls" or 1-gallon nano's! 

Right now, I have a betta in a 3-cup nano...and I am doing 100% twice-daily's on his water. Personally, I woudln't keep this going for any extended period of time AT ALL! But it IS SUFFICIENT! And it frees up a pair of "hospitals" for guppies who are suffering from "the shimmy's". This is something betta owners don't really have to worry about. Bettas are hardy and almost immune to many of the illnesses that other fish are prone to getting. If you can keep your betta happy and warm without dealing with excess waste building up in his enclosure, it can live AND THRIVE! I have a bubble nest in that 3- cup nanoquarium already...that tells me that I know what I'm doing! Yet, I already LOST three guppies to "the shimmy's"...that sucks!  I have to do what I have to do. The guppies live in a 15-g...it's not about the space. Sometimes, it's a combination of luck and pesky bugs not showing themselves until the quarantine has passed! Even after all this time, I'm still learning lessons. But those lessons aren't revolving around the bettas anymore! :|

Just watch...if you ADVISE someone toward a larger aquarium for the sake of easier keeping and more stable water quality/temperatures and EVEN opining that YOUR BETTAS like their 2.5-5 gallon aquariums a lot, you won't hear a PEEP FROM ME! 8) HOWEVER, if you accuse that person of being cruel to their fish, or saying that they are BARELY meeting the minimum requirements for their fish, I'm going to give you a piece of my mind! Like I've said many times before, do it for the RIGHT REASONS! If someone is keeping a "nano", and isn't interested in upgrading despite your advice that the 2.5-gallong would be in their best interests, send them my way! I'm happy to try to help them! 

This OP wasn't about what you think it was. It was about the fact that, sometimes, you have to ditch your own advice and defer to the person that can help the new keeper TRY to succeed at the path they have already chosen. I'd rather do whatever I can do to try to make sure they can provide an optimal home for their fish, rather than acting as a walking advertisement for Wal-Mart. I'd be hard-pressed to find a thread where you HAVEN'T tried to advertise the Wal-Mart aquarium...are you working for them or something????? :-?

If the new keeper doesn't want to do AT LEAST once-weekly water changes, they shouldn't even be considereing keeping fish in "nano's". Heck, they shouldn't be trying to keep fish AT ALL if they aren't willing to do at least this much! Yet, if they ARE considering a nanoquarium, they need to know what it takes to maintain it. And, if someone DOES know what it takes to maintain the 1-gallon or similarly sized aquarium, the last thing they need is your sense of superiority telling them that they are cruel for doing so!


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## Kittles (Feb 8, 2010)




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## xxabc (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh god talk about a rant. 

Kittles...just...LOL. 

Mister Sparkles, since I actually _read_ your post (you might want to consider remaking a summary if you really want your point across), you make good points, and I can see where you're pointing at. I'd ask a question - would this include me? If you aren't aware, I am in great favor of larger tanks for - yes, the size. Although "complaining about size" wasn't highly established in your full-on-rant (or at least, not in the "it doesn't have enough room to swim" sense), I still am against 1/2 gallons for - yes *gasp* their size! However, on the deal with being able to keep up with water changes, keeping temperature stable and high, and all those basic needs for life, I couldn't agree more. Water changes temperature, etc, etc, etc, is the basis of life for any fish in a small aquarium. If I saw someone with a 1 gallon, I will only _slightly_ judge - or feel insecure - if they are a newcomer. Until I hear of their great water schedule and their succesful feats at keeping their tank warm, shall I rest in peace. But if anything, if I hear "isn't that a lot of work", I refrain myself from _everything._You don't know how many times I've had to bite my tongue to be nice. (But I'm not THAT mean, lol! I promise!)

I'll make a few comments here and there. 

The "dropping a betta into a 29 gallon", we both know the issue would be lack of adequate planting. A plain 29 gallon, why yes, you'll see just that. In a HEAVILY dense planted tank, you won't see anything remotely close. Oh, and heating and water changes. 

Let's not cause an argument over this, but I just have to say this: The only "sense" of "minimum size" is for, well for _me_, swimming space. I cannot sleep thinking my betta cannot swim as much as they do right now in their divided. Well, they swim a lot. And I'm so happy for them. I can't bare anymore, to cut down an _inch_ of that space. But this, is my own opinion, and I hope you, Mister Sparkles, can respect that. Just know I still understand where you come from 100%. I'm not completely that ignorant, am I? Haha. 

I don't mind you keeping your bettas in small enclosure. I trust you like I'd trust a breeder - You're keeping their spaces VERY clean. You heat them as adequately as can be, there's nothing I could really ask for in a small enclosure. Except *hacks cough*  But ignore that. 

Okay, the Walmart tank. That's easy to explain. Uh - it's a 5 gallon...with a filter...and a hood...and plants...and who knows what else (they're useless for us betta keepers though)...for THIRTY dollars? Le gasp! (Unless it's second hand or on sale, the only other 5 gallon I've seen are the hexes, or the Marineland(?), for at LEAST $45). Now, at this point, it is for the sake of cutting down money, and allowing our brand new fish keeper a larger tank, and being able to breathe a little by cutting down their water change time. Didn't you also say not all new fishkeepers are willing to do those water changes? Two birds, one stone. Cheap, larger more manageable tank. And that's why we recommend that tank. But dear god, I would never _work_ for walmart. Ahaha...


Amen to the last paragraph.


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## TigerLily (Sep 17, 2009)

I never, anywhere in my post, said that half gallon containers were cruel. I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I did call them sub-par...which, to me on the subject of space, they are when compared to a slightly larger enclosure. Note that I said slightly. I'm not sitting here shouting that bettas need mansions. Twenty-nine gallons, really? Your example of too much space is almost as stupid as my "cat in the closet" example, which I admit does not apply. In case you haven't noticed, there's a big difference between two, five, and ten and....twenty-nine. 

The point I'm driving is that having a little more space is plus and therefore something to consider if someone has the spare space and money. Especially since many new fish keepers do not want to be doing water changes every two or three days. In fact, I believe I said that if someone properly cares for a betta in a half gallon enclosure that that's wonderful. 



> If you can keep your pet in a half gallon container, care for it well and in the end have a healthy, thriving fish: That's wonderful.


Wow. I did say that!

I have never criticized anyone on these forums (or off them, for that matter) for using a smaller bowl or tank and I have never called someone cruel for choosing to keep their fish that way. I do offer suggestions on affordable larger tanks in case someone would like to follow that route, as many do...and guess what? Even though I do not work there, Wal mart does have low prices and affordable kits that are reccomended by not just myself, but many others around here. I have also suggested second hand tanks (does that mean I work for Craigslist?) and Kritter Keepers (I don't work for them either).

I have kept bettas in bowls and kritter keepers and had healthy, thriving bettas. I know that they can be properly kept under those circumstances. However, having also kept them in tanks where they have more space, I find that that is my personal preference and when asked for input I will share that preference. 
In any case, it is a preference that many others on this forum share. I'm not (and neither is anyone else in this thread) waving picket signs and calling you a monster, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped acting as such.


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## Mister Sparkle (Apr 13, 2010)

@xxabc...from what I've seen so far, your recommendations are made for the RIGHT REASONS! I don't have any problems with your recommendations, especially as they apply to new keepers!

@tigerlily...I wasn't responding to you, or trying to put words in your mouth! 

As long as your recommendations are made with the RIGHT REASONS in mind, you and I will never have a problem! ;-)


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## TigerLily (Sep 17, 2009)

Who do you have a problem with then? No one in this thread has said that a properly maintained small enclosure is "cruel". Yet throughout your post you keep focusing on some yet undefined "you". 

"This OP wasn't about what you think it was."
"Don't you DARE call the care I provide "insufficient" or "cruel"."
"the last thing they need is your sense of superiority telling them that they are cruel for doing so!"


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Everyone has their own opinions and ideas. What works for one person may not work for another. I think there are always going to be arguemets over tank size but I think that whats most important is how well we take care of our bettas, small tanks or big tanks.


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## Katlyn023 (Apr 3, 2010)

Kittles said:


>



Omg, you are the best.


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## doggyhog (Apr 30, 2009)

dramaqueen said:


> Everyone has their own opinions and ideas. What works for one person may not work for another. I think there are always going to be arguemets over tank size but I think that whats most important is how well we take care of our bettas, small tanks or big tanks.


I completely agree. 

I personally wouldn't keep my betta in something smaller then 2g permanently. I just don't think they have enough space.

Here's an example: You have a betta in a 1/2g, it's fins start to curl. If you have a betta in a 2g, chances are it's fins won't curl. Fins often curl because they are in too small of a tank. This is not always the reason, but very often it is. Does that say something about small tanks being bad?

Most newbies don't know how often they are going to have to change the water in a little "Betta Kit" tank. Then the fish gets sick. Not to mention heating. Obviously, they can't just be at "Room temperature" I mean, who keeps their house at 80 degrees constantly??? (Other then my grandma LOL) 

I'm not saying that all small tanks are bad, it's just not the best for the fish in the long run. 

JMO...


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## TeenyTinyTofu (Feb 7, 2010)

I do find 1/2 tanks cruel. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. And when I see someone new keeping their betta in a 1/2 gallon container, I will nicely tell them that they should upgrade to something a bit bigger, so that the fish can have more room to swim. Like I said, just because they CAN live in a 1/2 gallon of water, doesn't mean they SHOULD. My opinion only. And I will continue to state my opinion. If Mister Sparkles doesn't agree with my opinion, he doesn't have to read it. But my opinion won't just change because a new member joins the board and rants and raves because he has a different opinion.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Its ok to disagree with each other but please, let's respect each other's opinions, even if we dont agree with it.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

IMO-(In my opinion) on forms like these most (not all) posters are new in the hobby and are seeking advice and the more experienced hobbyist give advice based on their opinion and personal experience. Some are more passionate than others on what they feel is best husbandry practiced for this species. I have only been here a short time and most of the advice is spot on IMO, maybe not what I would do..but the advice is not wrong IMO.....just their way of doing things that work for them.

One thing I try to do when giving advice is to explain why something needs to be done to give the one asking for help information so that they may learn and find what works for them in their setting. As stated by DQ- "what works for one may not work for another".

IMO as an experienced fish keeper (over 30 years) and breeding this species (Betta splendens) for the past 11 years, my main goal in giving advice is to help the poster to be successful and to stay in this hobby and promote responsible fish keeping.

IMO you have people that "have" fish and those that "keep" fish...a big difference IMO as anybody can have a fish but it takes work and dedication to be a true keeper and hobbyist.

IMO a keeper and hobbyist can be of any age, we all had to start at one point and we all make mistake, the keeper will learn from these mistakes and improve their fish keeping, they will research, listen, learn and improve on their skills with time and experience.

IMO- there is a big difference in a fish that survives-vs-thrives, just because you can doesn't mean you should when it come to responsible fish keeping.

As a responsible hobbyist I want my hobby and the people in this hobby to be successful and giving a new hobbyist the tools for success is important IMO.

I do agree that for the more experienced hobbyist you can successfully keep this species in half gallon tank or less, but as experienced hobbyist we know how important water changes and proper feeding are, often the new hobbyist will not have a full understanding of this or even know how to make water changes...that is why they are here....

They want to know how to properly care for their fish and we the experienced hobbyist need to guide them in the right direction so they can be successful and IMO when the new hobbyist report that they have a half gallon tank we as responsible experienced hobbyist need to guide them to a larger tank to improve their chances of success until they gain a bit more experience and understanding of the importance of water quality and husbandry practice.

There are hundreds of ways to keep fish that thrive in our closed ecosystems we call an "Aquarium" it is finding what works for our systems, fish, source water and the amount of time, money and work we are willing to put into it for healthy-thriving-happy-fish and aquariums........

This is just my opinion...............


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## BettaxFishxCrazy (Sep 5, 2009)

I've had some of my fish in 1G's and they did perfectly fine. BUT, I knew that I had to clean it every other day and that was perfectly fine with me. We usually say to new comers, "bigger is better" because not a lot of people have time to devote to 100% water changes every other day. If you have the time for it, than go for it. But, I do believe that if you have the money and the room, to get a bigger tank than a 1/2G. I wouldn't go anything below a 1G. You would have to clean a 1/2G 100% every day and a lot of people don't want to do that or can't with their work/life schedule. 

Sure, they can be kept in smaller bowls/tanks but I would rather give them as much space possible to swim around in. One of my males has a VERY long tail and in a 1/2G there's no way the tail would've survived and thrived. They're also prone to biting their tails being in small enclosures if they're long-finned fish. 

Just as a side note...when I had a Cockatiel we bought her a huge Macaws cage. Everyone walked in and saw this small bird in a huge cage and thought it was stupid, but she was so happy and had plenty of room to move in. I also spoil my pets to death.lol


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## shibadibadoo (May 2, 2010)

ra ra a a a 

with that out of the way, i keep all my fish in 1-2 gallons tanks, and they all do fine.
Two have UGF's and one has an activated carbon filter.

They all take turns living in the different tanks and they're all happy as can be!

But when the term "bowl" comes into play, then i have a problem with it.
The kits they sell at petsmart where it's 2 fish in about a quart of water is too small for me, and i wouldn't keep anything in there, undivided.
But my fish are completely happy in the 11 and 22 dollar tanks that you find at walmart!


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

.5 is way too small.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Choclate, this thread is 2 years old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChoclateBetta (Jul 22, 2012)

Whoops sorry can you lock it please.


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