# Breeding question



## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Hi,

I'm new in breeding Betta and I've been keeping them for the last 6 months now.

I have the following setup for my breeding











and the male is already building quite a big bubble












I've put the female in a jar container inside the breeding container for 2 days and released her yesterday and leave them overnight.

Today morning checked on them female fins were torn. From my reading this is normal in breeding setup. But I don't see any eggs in the bubbles. Was worried about the female so I pulled her out back to her jar.

This is the female with the rip fins











Can anyone tell me what should I do ? should I rest the female first for few days and then try again ? should I repeat the whole process again (putting the female in the jar and then let her out again after 2 days) ?

Any suggestion appreciated.

Thanks


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

More pics of the female


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

First time females usually take 3 days of courtship before they are willing to embrace/spawn. Within the courtship period the male will beat the female, some too severe and cause death.

If you have a known vicious male, use bigger containers (wider). Add hideouts for the female to dash away to - preferably something that the male can't follow into (I use densely placed bushy stem plants - betta need to forcefully enter. So male can't follow when female dashes into them). DO NOT provide floating resting areas as male may attack female's midsection from below and kill her.

Many breeders float female for 2-3 days before releasing. They hope to shorten courtship period so the female doesn't get too badly hurt.
. . . . . .
If you think the female is alright and still willing to spawn, you could put her back in. But if worried, let her rest for a few days then try again.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

indjo said:


> If you think the female is alright and still willing to spawn, you could put her back in. But if worried, let her rest for a few days then try again.


Thanks for the reply @indjo 

Will keep the female separate in her own jar for the time being and let her recover for 1 week before trying again.

Will get some extra plants for the female to hide in the breeding container before trying again.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Just a quick update.

After resting the female for almost 6 days I've decided to put the female back in a jar inside the breeding container and let the male see the female again.

Today decided to put the female together with the male. So far since AM been seeing chasing around.

One of the thing noticed is that now the female are mostly near the bottom of the container (in random places) instead of going up and down, is this the normal submission pattern for the female ?

Cheers


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Each female show different behavior, whether stressed, over whelmed, or normal. As long as her color hasn't faded and she looks to have energy, she should eventually spawn. But when she mostly remains motionless, even when male approaches, then it's time to remove her and recondition.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Thanks @indjo

I've taken out the female today morning as she has been battered, fins torn and also the scales came off.

I've put her inside the jar in the breeding container so they are separated by the jar.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Just curious.

Is this the normal process that betta breeder goes through ?, what I meant is trying to breed them and if it does not work out they have to 'restart' the whole process again (recondition, feeding and try again) ?


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## CosmicSyringe (Jul 20, 2013)

Sometimes, yes. Especially for first timers. Glad you're looking after the female to make sure she's doing okay. The first pair I tried to breed didn't work but the second pair did.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

CosmicSyringe said:


> Sometimes, yes. Especially for first timers. Glad you're looking after the female to make sure she's doing okay. The first pair I tried to breed didn't work but the second pair did.


Thanks @CosmicSyringe. So I guess there is a possibility that the pair that I have (after trying few times) will not work ?. Normally how many times after trying the process we can conclude that the pair is not working out ?

Cheers


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## Rana (Apr 27, 2013)

I've never bred but from what I have seen, it's pretty common for there to be problems. Especially if both male & female are virgins, they may not know how to act in order to actually spawn at first. And some bettas will simply not be compatible for whatever reason, though how common _that_ is I really don't know.

If you have a second female in good condition, maybe you can put her in a container in your breeding female's tank for a couple of hours just before you're ready to try her with the male again? I think I've heard that showing her some "competition" can encourage a reluctant female to breed. (But I'm not sure if this is true or not, so hopefully an experienced breeder will say if it's a bad idea!)


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## CosmicSyringe (Jul 20, 2013)

Yes there's a chance they won't be compatible. I think maybe indjo or other more experienced betta keepers can answer that question better than I but I'm guessing maybe 3 times with proper reconditioning between each.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't know of "uncompatible" pairs. IMO, its how we "manipulate" them to want to breed. Sometimes certain individuals are not willing to breed. God knows I had my share of them.

Both male and female MUST show breeding signs to guarantee spawning. Both must swim in an "S" fashion, all over the tank. One will follow the other - usually female follows male. Other signs are bubble nest by male, breeding bars on female. Behavior is what I rely on because sometimes a female shows breeding bars while in jar but then stresses when released.

I only cancel breeding pairs if either one is unwilling to breed - not showing breeding signs. Otherwise I will keep trying until I figure out the best way to manipulate them.

Especially when male is vicious, I use lots of stem plants (anacharis or cabomba). Female could hide for as long as she needs to. Consequently breeding may take longer; sometimes one week. As long as I see female still willing and has energy, I let them be.

I have never added a second female to induce first female to spawn. So I don't know exactly how that goes. However, I've heard it works.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Thanks for the reply everyone.

Can you give recommendation what to use besides plants for the female to hide. I've tried putting a cutoff PVC pipe but can't see the female hides in it.

Plants are quite pricey here so any other non-plant suggestion will be great.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Are these sold in your area? They are mainly for wrapping and quite cheap in my country. They're sold in short balls too (about 10m). 

Anyways, cut them long enough - you decide or depending on how high your breeding tank is. I usually cut them about 20cm and tie 2 pieces to an anchor (making 4 10cm long). Then I shred them and make grass like strings. 

Place them densely in one corner of the breeding tank (about 2-3cm between anchors - I use fishing sinkers as anchor). 

You might want to soak them for a week before use (I soak under direct sun). If worried, you can bleach them before soaking. Though I've never experienced poisoning, it is said they can be toxic. In the early 80s I used them to breed goldfish - same method but longer pieces.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

indjo said:


> View attachment 1017504


Yes I can get the above. Will find over the weekend and create them. Appreciate the help


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

It's been almost 7 days since last I tried the breeding pair. I now have 2 pairs that I want to try and see if they breed. I've also added PVC, bit of plant and also plastic like rope that I have split it to thin pieces and tied them together.

Both the males have created bubble nest as can be seen in the pics


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Are the females responding - vibrant colors with light colored bars at midsection. Both must swim all over the tank when they see each other - not hold position at one place.

Btw, you can remove plastic rope and any hiding items when you remove female. It makes cleaning and observing easier.

Hope they spawn. . . .


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

indjo said:


> Are the females responding - vibrant colors with light colored bars at midsection. Both must swim all over the tank when they see each other - not hold position at one place.


Can't see very clearly the midsection thought. However in terms of female swimming most of the time the female are staying in one place and then move around but it's not together with the male. A lot of time the male is chasing the female around, is that a bad sign ?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Chasing or following.
Usually if following, female show bright colors. But if being chased, she will show stress signs (pale color with horizontal lines).

If following, that's a good sign


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Both pairs have been together for 28hrs so I've pulled both the female out and put them in their separate jars. The male is still in the breeding containers, the bubble nest have become bigger and thicker but not sure whether there are eggs or not, will just have to wait for few days before I change the breeding container water.

On the other hand the guppies that I've put outside in our backyard in an aquarium (with heater) have bred but only 7 left. Seems like it was eaten by the parents 

Just curious does temperature makes a difference when it comes to breeding betta ?. At the moment it's winter here but the betta are inside the house, however temperature can be around probably below 20C or even below 18C, does that affect the female "willingness" to breed too ?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Sort of. Bettas are less active in lower temperatures. But if the individual can adapt to it, it will spawn. Try to raise the temp to 28°C because it will affect eggs and fry - longer and less hatch rate plus weaker fry

My bettas are less active at 25°C (never kept them in lower temp) but they will spawn. 
. . . . . . . . 
IMO, if the pair are showing breeding signs, you shouldn't have removed the female. First time females usually need 3 days of courtship - some sooner, others longer. As long as (especially female) doing fine, let them be. They will eventually spawn


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

indjo said:


> IMO, if the pair are showing breeding signs, you shouldn't have removed the female. First time females usually need 3 days of courtship - some sooner, others longer. As long as (especially female) doing fine, let them be. They will eventually spawn


In that case then most probably what I will do the next time (until the female recovered as the back and down fins are shredded) is to:


Raise temperature to 28C
Leave it for 48hrs

Cheers


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Got a question regarding fry food.

From my reading infusoria is a good food for fry and seems like it can be done without starter culture like this video 




Just want to know from other's experience whether doing this without starter culture is possible ?

Cheers


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Infusoria is actually a mixture of micro organisms which are actually present in old tank water, or better yet, bacteria infested water like filter sponge. So these waters are the starter. 

You want those critters to flourish, thus need to provide food. The person in your video uses yeast, most people use veggie clippings. All will work if done correctly.

Below Is another example - just for comparison. Choose a method you're comfortable with and tweak it accordingly. You'd want to make more than one culture so you'd have an endless supply.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

I've successfully cultured Paramecium as per the video so at least from the fry food perspective it's ready. Now it's time to get the pairs ready to breed.

I've taken picture of the female that I'm trying to breed with the stomach looks big is it eggs or is it just full ?. Been feeding her and the male with frozen bloodworms and micro pellets for the last 3 weeks now.


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## nicksydney (Apr 23, 2020)

Here is another pic of the underside of the female, does the breeding tube (white colour ?) looks like that when she is ready ?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Mature females always carry eggs, whether she is thin or fat. She needs to be in top shape because she most probably get beaten by the male. It helps her recover sooner.

Make sure they BOTH want to breed. If they see each other, they will swim all over their container in a wriggling fashion. Males will often (not always) build bubble nests and females usually show light colored bars at her midsection. If so, you can either release both or float female for 1-2 days before releasing.

I don't use floating objects for the nest. It's hard to see eggs. Instead I cover the top (something solid - not see through) where I want them to spawn. 

Good luck


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