# Help Please! What should be my next step...



## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

My boy Bubbles has been ill on and off for the past five months. It all started because of my lack of keeping up with water changes. He got sick with ammonia poisoning. He used to be kept in a 3 gallon tank but I ended up moving him to a 10 gallon tank and he bounced back almost immediately. Then shortly after he had issues with his swim bladder, but that eventually resolved on its own. I’ve been keeping up with checking water parameters and they have stayed normal. Since everything seemed to be fine and it’s a planted tank, I started slacking with the water changes again and was doing them sometimes every two weeks or up to once a month. I know, I’m the worst... And here we are again with my poor Bubbles not looking great and acting very ill. I’m doing weekly changes now. His fins or color never really came back since the amonia poisoning case, but at least he was active and swimming as normal. About four weeks ago I started noticing that he was staying at the bottom all the time occasionally coming up for air or to eat. At least he hasn’t lost his appetite, he still eats twice a day every day. He swims up to the surface when he sees me, I scoop him up in a small container so he can be fed because he gets too tired and sometimes isn’t able to eat all of his food before going back down. I’m not sure if he’s just weak, having trouble swimming because of his shorter tail or both. 

Since his tail is significantly shorter I though it could be fin/tail rot so I gave him a methylene blue dip on 3/10, but nothing changed. Then I tried a round of Kanapkex on 3/10, but again no improvement. Finally tried API General Cure on 3/15 thinking that it could be an internal parasite since he’s been eating well but still very weak and skinny. I haven’t tried aquarium salt because I’ve read mixed reviews on the actual benefits, but I do have some and could use it if that would help in any way.

I’m at my wits end. I don’t know what else to do. Nothing I’ve done has helped or shown any signs of improvement. I’m probably making things worse by trying to treat him with all these different medications without knowing exactly what’s going on. I’ve been reading up on different forums and boards for far too long. I’ve tried everything I though could help but nothing has changed, so now I finally decided to ask for help. I want to give this little guy the best chance possible as I’m feeling very guilty for his current state. We got him on 5/1/21 and just a couple of months later he was thriving. Then I fell behind on maintenance and it has been downhill since. This started as my daughter’s fish and now he’s pretty much my baby as I spend every free moment I have (which isn’t much) taking care of him or researching for conditions and treatment. Any help or guidance is appreciated. I’m an animal lover and I’m suffering seeing him like this and it pains me knowing that it’s mostly because of my own doing. Thank you in advance. 


Housing:
How many gallons is your tank? 10
Does it have a filter? Yes
Does it have a heater? Yes
What temperature is your tank? 76-77
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? No

Food:
What food brand do you use? Hikari Bio Gold
Do you feed flakes or pellets? Pellets
Freeze-dried? No
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? Three to four pellets twice a day — with the ocasional frozen brine shrimp treat

Maintenance:
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? Twice a month or monthly
What percentage of water did you change? 20%
What is the source of your water? Tap/City
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? Vacuum 
What additives do you use other than conditioner? What brand of conditioner? Seachem Prime, Dark Water (almond leaf extract) and Seachem StressGuard. Recently added an Indian almond leaf and the water is a little more brownish. 

Water Parameters:
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water before the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.3- 7.6
Hardness (GH): Unknown
Alkalinity (KH): Unknown 

Symptoms and Treatment:
When did you first notice the symptoms? 4 weeks ago
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? Sitting at the bottom lacking energy. Tail getting shorter. Fins looking frail. 
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? Not active, barely swimming but still alert. 
Is your Betta still eating? Yes
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? Kanaplex, Methylene blue dip and API General Cure. 
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? Ammonia poisoning (10/20), Swim bladder (11/20)
How long have you owned your Betta? Since 5/1/20 (Petco)
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? Wasn’t in the best shape when purchased, but two months later he was thriving.










August 2020 (at his very best)









December 2020 — after bouncing back from ammonia poisoning and swim bladder 









2/19/21 —when I noticed changes in his behavior









Today 3/24/21 — he’s in the little container where I feed him looking straight at me


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## SkyCloud (Oct 31, 2020)

I can't help you much but I really hope he gets better.  Something is definitely up with his fins but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is. I'm sure someone more experienced will come along


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Sorry your boy is not doing well.

You say he's skinny. Can you post a photo from above? I would immediately ditch the Bio-Gold for something more nutritious: NorthFin Betta Bits, Fluval Bug Bites, New Life Spectrum, Omega One or Aqueon Color or regular (not the Betta Pro). My preferred food is only available online by the manufacturers: It's Devour Grain-Free Bug Formula.

Did you stop the Kanaplex before the recommended three doses 48 hours apart? Did you use two scoops? There was no rest between the MB dip and the Kanaplex and the Kanaplex and the General Cure, correct? If there was no rest it is possible too many meds in a row with no break is the heart of his current issues.

You are using IAL, correct? Constantly? It has antifungal and antibacterial properties and needs to be in the tank of sick Betta 24/7. Water should be at least this color:







In the first photo it is apparent he'd been fin biting. Do you have photos of him indicating the Ammonia poisoning? What were the readings that you think caused the poisoning?

The last photos indicate he has or has had fin rot and is still biting. If you neglected the other tank (something most of us have done at one point or another so thanks for being honest) that could have been the start of the fin rot. Fins, like fingernails, bleed. The red is not an indication of fin rot. The bleeding is just easier to see in light-colored fins.

For now, no more meds. I'd move him back to the three gallon and start doing 3-4 x weekly one-gallon water changes. Get him a better food and feed 3 x per day with the Brine Shrimp as at least one of his meals. Keep the water at least the color of the tank above. You can brew a strong tea out of the IAL, add conditioner and store in the refrigerator. Still keep a leaf floating, though.

Do not cup him to feed as this just adds to any stress.

Gills are the main breathing organ; not the labyrinth. Leave the three bare of substrate and drop his food in. If you don't have a filter use an air stone or bubble wand to oxygenate.

It will help you to keep track of any progress if you take photos every three or four days. Try to get him as possible to the same pose each time so you can compare better.

StressGuard dissipates so dose every day.


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## Hania41806 (Dec 10, 2020)

poor baby ... I hope he gets better soon!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Forgot: You can weight down plant to give him things to rest on; just keep the bottom bare so he can forage for his food. You can remove anything he doesn't eat by using a turkey baster or pipette. You can also target feed him using a pipette.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Sorry your boy is not doing well.
> 
> You say he's skinny. Can you post a photo from above? I would immediately ditch the Bio-Gold for something more nutritious: NorthFin Betta Bits, Fluval Bug Bites, New Life Spectrum, Omega One or Aqueon Color or regular (not the Betta Pro). My preferred food is only available online by the manufacturers: It's Devour Grain-Free Bug Formula.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your detailed response. You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time to respond and help. Virtual hugs to you! (if that's appropriate )

Here is a picture I just took this morning, hopefully it shows enough top view. I was not able to take one right from above because he does not really stay on the surface long enough. And as you had mentioned, I really want to stop scooping him up in the little container because that must be very stressful for him. I just wanted to make sure he was eating and that was the best way I could think of. I still have the 3gal tank, so I will set it up today and move him there. It has a filter and heater. Don't know why it did not occur to me to move him sooner.










I used Kanaplex in his food for three consecutive days then medicated the whole tank with the full dose on the third day (3/13) – since he had been taking it internally I did not want to overmedicate by dosing the tank again. The blue dip actually took place on 3/3 (previous typo), so those two treatments were a week apart. Not much rest between Kanaplex and General Cure as that last one took place on 3/15. Deep inside I knew it probably wasn’t a good idea to medicate so much without knowing exactly what was going on, but I was desperate and became even more desperate when I did not see any improvement or response from the treatments. I was hoping to at least see him become a little more active or his fins/tail improve some. The fact that he has not lost his appetite keeps me hopeful. I will change his food, I want to order the Devour Grain-Free Bug Formula since it's your preferred one. Let me ask you this -- what is the best way to feed frozen brine shrimp? I have the Omega One that comes in individual mini pods. How many shrimps should I give him in one feeding? I was keeping it frozen and just cutting off small chunks at a time, but then started thawing the whole thing and leaving it in the fridge. Should I keep frozen or leave in the fridge, if so for how long can it stay in the refrigerator..? There are so many little shrimps in there that it takes a while to go through the whole thing. Sometimes I ended up throwing away the rest because I'm scared of them going bad in the fridge after a few days. 

Yes, I’m using IAL, started with Dark Water (extract) that I replace with every water change, but recently added an actual leaf and finally noticed a difference in the color of the water. The extract alone never made it this dark. For some reason it does not show well in the pictures, but it is a brownish color. It was a huge leaf (palm of my hand big as you can see from pic below), so I cut it and only put ¼ back because I thought it may be too much -- should I put the whole thing back in there? I'm dosing with StressGuard daily, usually 1/2 cap and I try to do it while he's near the surface so that it makes direct contact -- hope that's a good thing as I have not been able to find anything on whether or not it is safe to pour directly on the fish.










Below pic was back when he had ammonia poisoning. I was not checking parameters then, only had some Seachem Ammonia Alert and pH Alert cards stuck to the glass -- which in all honesty don't do much if nothing at all. The colors always appeared as normal (lesson learned!). I was taking the water to Petco to get tested and was only told that ammonia was high, not sure by how much – but that’s when I decided to move him to a bigger tank, buy a kit and test myself. The thought of him fin biting never crossed my mind, but I guess that's a possibility. It is highly likely that my neglecting the tank which caused the ammonia poisoning also started some fin rot. I dosed him with some Kanaplex back then and though it would take a while for his fins to get better but I really did not know if they looked that way because of the ammonia poisoning or fin rot, or maybe even both. If that's the case, then it went untreated for a long time and that may explain his current issues. 










One more thing I wanted to add... When I started monitoring water parameters I was always focused on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, rarely I would test pH. It wasn't until recently that I learned how important it is to maintain steady pH levels. Another thing I had been neglecting that could be the root cause of everything that has happened to him, specially recent issues. That's why I decided to up my IAL game and also purchased and actual pH meter which I still need to set up and calibrate, but hope will help in keeping a closer eye on those levels.

Hope I did not miss any of your follow up questions. Thanks again for your time


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## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

I hope your boy gets better soon!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

AlphaBettas said:


> I hope your boy gets better soon!


Thank you!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

SkyCloud said:


> I can't help you much but I really hope he gets better.  Something is definitely up with his fins but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is. I'm sure someone more experienced will come along


Thank you!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

There are others, I'm sure, who can weigh in with their opinions. We all have differing experiences so it's always helpful when they do. I'm not great with antibiotics but we have several members who can advise you on those. I'd need to ask for advice if IAL or Rooibos and frequent water changes don't work. Or, in the case of Ich, if raising the temperature to 86 for three weeks doesn't work. 

You can put decor in his three gallon; just leave yourself room to clean the bottom with the turkey baster. As he improves he will appreciate the plants, etc.

If you are using the API test, it measures Total Ammonia (TA) which is NH3 ("Free" or toxic) and NH4 (Ammonium or non-toxic) combined. Prime converts NH3 to Ammonium. So, even if you don't have NH3 API will read positive if you have Ammonium. On the other hand, the Ammonia Alert only measures NH4. So if the AA doesn't register then API is reading NH4 as NH3. Hope that makes sense; it's a really simple explanation. Is there also a difference in the SeaChem pH Alert and API test?

If you decide on the Devour, I have a 10% off first purchase code. Send a PM.

Edit: Yes, he is a little thin. He should look like the photo below: Gradual transition from head to tail.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> There are others, I'm sure, who can weigh in with their opinions. We all have differing experiences so it's always helpful when they do. I'm not great with antibiotics but we have several members who can advise you on those. I'd need to ask for advice if IAL or Rooibos and frequent water changes don't work. Or, in the case of Ich, if raising the temperature to 86 for three weeks doesn't work.
> 
> You can put decor in his three gallon; just leave yourself room to clean the bottom with the turkey baster. As he improves he will appreciate the plants, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It would be great if someone else could chime in with their opinions on medications and thoughts about what could be going on with Bubbles...

He is now in the 3gal tank with his little tower and some live plants (see pic below), there's another one in the back. I also added a big IAL and the water is already a nice light brown color. My concern at this moment is that he has not been able to eat since yesterday afternoon when I moved him. Because I had to scoop him up anyway, I fed him in the container before putting him in the smaller tank. He has been struggling to stay up long enough to eat his pellets. He goes for them but keeps missing them and eventually starts going down slowly, almost like falling  .. He's really having a hard time swimming. Not sure if it's his fins/tail, lack of energy, or both -- it's just really sad.

The 3gal tank is round and has one of those under gravel filters that makes the bare bottom set up a little challenging. Makes me wonder if that suction could be pulling him down (does that make sense?). Last night and again this morning I turned off the filter after dropping the food in just to avoid any type of current or movement, but that hasn't really helped, he still has not been able to eat. I'm waiting on the pellets to sink to see if maybe that helps, but if they fall through the cracks at the bottom he wont be able to reach them. I will start back on frozen brine shrimp today, so that may be a little easier. Any thoughts on how many to give him? How to store the leftovers and for how long?

I want to order Devour, but since it will take some time to get it I would like to get today from Petco one of the other ones you suggested -- which one would be best..? Fluval Bug Bites Betta Formula or New Life Spectrum Betta be better. My local store has both in stock.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Hi , I may be wrong, but this does look like a case of some kind of parasite maybe even ich but I cant be 100% sure on that. The bettas I have had that have had ich always become ragged on their tails. They look as if they have been torn apart.

If you could get him something like garlic guard to soak his food in that would be great. There have been instances where people actually treat the whole tank with it for ich, but I have never done it.
If he is still able to eat the garlic in the food will be helpful parasites hate garlic and it will help his immune system. 

Many reviewers have said just them eating it in their food improves them so It is worth a try! It is 13.88 US dollars for 500 ML on amazon.

I warn you it will be powerful smelling!


Do you have a heater? I would also recommend getting a glass aquarium thermometer.

In normal circumstances I would not recommend increasing from 76-77 to 83 in one day even , in this case you must act quickly.

I think if possible gradually increasing the tank temperature would be helpful. If the tank temp is 76-77 you would probably want to increase it to 83 over the course of hours ( 1-2 degree per hour and the next day increase it to 86 over hours). You will need to add aquarium salt at around 1 tsp per gallon to start with the day you start raising the temperature.
Mix it with tank water and let it dissolve ( In a cup or something never washed in soap!) If you add it right to the tank it will burn him, so it must be full dissolved before adding.
If it is ich, the increase of temperature of 83 will speed the lifecycle so you need something like aquarium salt that it will not like. By the time you are at 86 it may be enough to kill the ich but the salt will help anyway.

Everyday use a syphon on the tank bottom. Ich eggs likes to hide on the bottom of the tank so you want to get as many out as possible.

I hope he can get better soon! Please try and start the garlic guard immediately.

Both New life spectrum and Fluval are good quality pellets. Just be sure to soak whatever you get in garlic guard! Maybe get both if possible..


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

If you are worried that he can not get the food because it falls through the cracks, you could get a small breeder box to put him in. He would be close to the top for air and as long as you do not put the grate in, he would be able to get food.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> Hi , I may be wrong, but this does look like a case of some kind of parasite maybe even ich but I cant be 100% sure on that. The bettas I have had that have had ich always become ragged on their tails. They look as if they have been torn apart.
> 
> If you could get him something like garlic guard to soak his food in that would be great. There have been instances where people actually treat the whole tank with it for ich, but I have never done it.
> If he is still able to eat the garlic in the food will be helpful parasites hate garlic and it will help his immune system.
> ...


Thank you so much for your response. I thought maybe it could be internal parasites because of his weakness and lack of weight gain, but never occurred to me it could be ich. I haven’t noticed any white spots — is it possible to have it without that particular symptom?

I have heard great things about GarlicGuard. He’s never been picky so that’s why I never gave it a try, but I guess it’d be worth it just for the health benefits. I’m definitely going to order it. 

The heater in the 10gal tank would only go to 77, but the one in the 3gal is now 79 — so he gradually went up a couple of degrees at least. They’re both automatic so I don’t have any way of making them go higher. If he was still in the 10gal I could technically use both, but in this smaller one both heaters would probably cook him.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> If you are worried that he can not get the food because it falls through the cracks, you could get a small breeder box to put him in. He would be close to the top for air and as long as you do not put the grate in, he would be able to get food.


Yes! I thought about getting an isolation box to avoid having to scoop him up for feedings since it would make it a shorter distance for him to get to the top, but now that he’s in the smaller tank I don’t think I could fit one in there. Now I’m second guessing the change.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Like @RussellTheShihTzu I am not great with meds because they are not legal here in Canada. If he is having a hard time with his food you could use a small pipette to suck up the food and drop it down right in front of him. If the filter is too strong you could turn it off and use an air stone if you have one. Otherwise I think a breeder box might be a good idea. I don't feel like he has ICH but it is hard to tell from the photos. ICH looks like sugar sprinkled all over the fish, you cannot see it in the water or on décor, so you would not be able to suck it up. 
I have heard good things about API fin and body cure, but have never used it myself. I am unsure about an internal parasite but I will say that severe rot can bring on these symptoms, so he may just be suffering from that infection. North fin betta bits or new life spectrum might be a bit easier for you because they sink pretty quickly. I find fluval bug bites float for the most part.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> Yes! I thought about getting an isolation box to avoid having to scoop him up for feedings since it would make it a shorter distance for him to get to the top, but now that he’s in the smaller tank I don’t think I could fit one in there. Now I’m second guessing the change.


[/QUOTE]

I know this can be difficult having fish that are ill. Stressful for sure especially when the exact cause in unknown. You feel like the time is just going by and feel as if you must help him quickly, but are not sure how. I know exactly how you are feeling right now. All you can do is your best and make the best decisions you can at the time. 

What are the dimensions of the top of the tank? I have seen some very small breeder boxes before so maybe I can look around for you! 
It is possible you could even make one somehow . Maybe a shallow plastic container that has never been washed in anything and is bpa free and everything? You could put holes in the sides for water circulation but not the bottom so no food would fall out? 

I think even if it is severe rot in his fins. The garlic guard certainly will not hurt and may help stimulate his hunger, and neither will the aquarium salt which would help his fins.
You could even start at just 83 degree temp and 1 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon and just see how he is doing with that.

Leave the Indian almond in his tank for sure as this will help lower the ph naturally if it is too high and has antibacterial properties.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> Like @RussellTheShihTzu I am not great with meds because they are not legal here in Canada. If he is having a hard time with his food you could use a small pipette to suck up the food and drop it down right in front of him. If the filter is too strong you could turn it off and use an air stone if you have one. Otherwise I think a breeder box might be a good idea. I don't feel like he has ICH but it is hard to tell from the photos. ICH looks like sugar sprinkled all over the fish, you cannot see it in the water or on décor, so you would not be able to suck it up.
> I have heard good things about API fin and body cure, but have never used it myself. I am unsure about an internal parasite but I will say that severe rot can bring on these symptoms, so he may just be suffering from that infection. North fin betta bits or new life spectrum might be a bit easier for you because they sink pretty quickly. I find fluval bug bites float for the most part.


Danigirl is worried about the food falling in the cracks at the bottom of the 3 gallon he is in right now, so floating him in something seems like the best option. 

I am not 100% sure he has ich either, it is hard to tell for sure! I think the treatments for ich wouldn't be a bad idea, but maybe not such high of a temperature. Maybe just doing 83 degrees and 1 tsp per gallon of the salt instead of 86 degrees. The aquarium salt may help his fins. Do you think this is a good idea?

Ich can hide in their gills and is not always seen on their body, It can sometimes just be a few spots on their fins also, which may explain his ragged fins, but like you said it is possible it is just the rot. 

Hopefully we can figure out what is wrong with him!


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Just saw that the aquarium heater will not go past 79, sorry I missed that! In this case you could just add the aquarium salt and skip the higher temp.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Did he display any behavior such as rubbing against things at any point? If a fish has ich they will often swim crazily and appear to rub against items almost like itching themselves. This is not always the case but it is common symptoms!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Can I ask when ich came into the conversation? I can’t seem to find it and I’m wondering what the symptoms are?


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> Can I ask when ich came into the conversation? I can’t seem to find it and I’m wondering what the symptoms are?



The most common symptoms are usually rubbing against items or swimming "crazily" and it will look like they are just darting back and forth and will usually rub against the glass similar to glass surfing.

Russel mentioned using 86 degrees for ich. She was saying that is the treatment she uses and tries first.
I brought up Ich because I had a few bettas in the past who were displaying similar symptoms as this betta is with ragged fins and they also quit eating. It turned out upon closer inspection I could see small white dots on their gills and their fins and it was ich even though they did not display the classic symptoms in the beginning.

At this point I thought recommending ich treatment would be a good idea because the garlic guard would not hurt him regardless and the salt would not either and might help his fins if it was indeed fin rot. The higher heat is the thing that would be more stressful if done quickly. 

I definitely do not like treating a fish with medication unless we know exactly what is wrong or any treatment for that matter, but he looks to be in bad shape right now, so it is possible an ich treatment might work.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Animals15 said:


> The most common symptoms are usually rubbing against items or swimming "crazily" and it will look like they are just darting back and forth and will usually rub against the glass similar to glass surfing.
> 
> Russel mentioned using 86 degrees if it did turn out to be Ich although like the rest of us she never claimed it was ich for sure.
> I brought up Ich because I had a few bettas in the past who were displaying similar symptoms as this betta is with ragged fins and they also quit eating. It turned out upon closer inspection I could see small white dots on their gills and their fins and it was ich even though they did not display the classic symptoms in the beginning.
> ...


I should have been more clear. I was wondering what the symptoms were for her specific fish not for ich in general.
Unless the fish has spots, I’m thinking it does not have ich.
If it were my fish, I would do as russel suggested, daily or every other day cleaning and a strong IAL tea. Salt is fine but I feel in his fragile state I wouldn’t be adding anything else unless that does not help. Others may have a difference of opinion on that.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> I should have been more clear. I was wondering what the symptoms were for her specific fish not for ich in general.
> Unless the fish has spots, I’m thinking it does not have ich.
> If it were my fish, I would do as russel suggested, daily or every other day cleaning and a strong IAL tea. Salt is fine but I feel in his fragile state I wouldn’t be adding anything else unless that does not help. Others may have a difference of opinion on that.


Oh I understand sorry! Yeah I was just concerned that he had quit eating and thought she had already tried the IAL for a longer period of time but looking back I see it was just recently! I definitely agree the IAL should be continued, but the garlic guard would for sure be worth trying immediately

I hope that he makes a full recovery!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> I know this can be difficult having fish that are ill. Stressful for sure especially when the exact cause in unknown. You feel like the time is just going by and feel as if you must help him quickly, but are not sure how. I know exactly how you are feeling right now. All you can do is your best and make the best decisions you can at the time.
> 
> What are the dimensions of the top of the tank? I have seen some very small breeder boxes before so maybe I can look around for you!
> It is possible you could even make one somehow . Maybe a shallow plastic container that has never been washed in anything and is bpa free and everything? You could put holes in the sides for water circulation but not the bottom so no food would fall out?
> ...


It is so difficult. I know I can only do the best I can, but I always wonder if what I'm doing is actually the best. It's very frustrating when everything you try makes absolutely no difference. I just get more concerned and sad each passing day. Thank you for understanding and for your kind words. This is exactly why I decided to join and post here. I know I'm not alone.

Here is a top view of the 3gal tank. It's 10in wide and it has the filter in the middle. I don't know what would be best or worse -- putting him through the stress of removing the filter and leaving him in the 3gal tank with no filtration and maybe a small box or moving him back to the 10gal with an isolation box. I'm guessing that there is a benefit to having him in the smaller tank and that is why the change was suggested, I just hope I'm not making things worse.










I ordered the GarlicGuard, but it does not get here until Tuesday. I'm still trying to find it locally. I'll give him some brine shrimp tonight, I think those should be easier to feed.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> Did he display any behavior such as rubbing against things at any point? If a fish has ich they will often swim crazily and appear to rub against items almost like itching themselves. This is not always the case but it is common symptoms!


No, he has not displayed such behavior.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> Like @RussellTheShihTzu I am not great with meds because they are not legal here in Canada. If he is having a hard time with his food you could use a small pipette to suck up the food and drop it down right in front of him. If the filter is too strong you could turn it off and use an air stone if you have one. Otherwise I think a breeder box might be a good idea. I don't feel like he has ICH but it is hard to tell from the photos. ICH looks like sugar sprinkled all over the fish, you cannot see it in the water or on décor, so you would not be able to suck it up.
> I have heard good things about API fin and body cure, but have never used it myself. I am unsure about an internal parasite but I will say that severe rot can bring on these symptoms, so he may just be suffering from that infection. North fin betta bits or new life spectrum might be a bit easier for you because they sink pretty quickly. I find fluval bug bites float for the most part.


Thank you so much for your response. I also tend to incline more towards fin rot, but that is why I'm so frustrated -- if it's that what he has, then I would've hoped to see a better response from the treatments I've tried (methylene blue dip and Kanaplex) I've read that in severe cases it may require multiple rounds, so that may be the case. I just did not stick to one treatment long enough and instead moved to something else too quickly. Maybe someone who has used those two treatments or API Fin and Body Cure will chime in with some feedback.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> I should have been more clear. I was wondering what the symptoms were for her specific fish not for ich in general.
> Unless the fish has spots, I’m thinking it does not have ich.
> If it were my fish, I would do as russel suggested, daily or every other day cleaning and a strong IAL tea. Salt is fine but I feel in his fragile state I wouldn’t be adding anything else unless that does not help. Others may have a difference of opinion on that.


I'll be doing frequent water changes. I'm also hesitant about the salt. There is a huge IAL in there, should I make tea instead? Is there a special way to make it?


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

danigirl said:


> Thank you so much for your response. I also tend to incline more towards fin rot, but that is why I'm so frustrated -- if it's that what he has, then I would've hoped to see a better response from the treatments I've tried (methylene blue dip and Kanaplex) I've read that in severe cases it may require multiple rounds, so that may be the case. I just did not stick to one treatment long enough and instead moved to something else too quickly. Maybe someone who has used those two treatments or API Fin and Body Cure will chime in with some feedback.


@Veloran @KekeTheBettaDoc ?
These two know much more about meds than myself so hopefully one of them can chime in.




danigirl said:


> I'll be doing frequent water changes. I'm also hesitant about the salt. There is a huge IAL in there, should I make tea instead? Is there a special way to make it?


I would do the tea. You can make it just like you would a regular tea, just make sure the water is cool and treated before you put it in. For what it’s worth, I cured fin rot in a betta I adopted from my cousin, I only used IAL and salt and it took 2 months to see regrowth. I get your frustration completely.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

If you balance a net in the tank would it work to hold him? You could put the cup in the bottom to keep the net spread out; put a piece of IAL in with him.

I would be sorely tempted to do a full round of Kanaplex. At this point I don't believe it would hurt anything.

I do not see Ich. The treatment is 86 degrees; nothing lower would be of any help.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

The garlic guard will be good ! If he can still eat he will be tempted by it hopefully.
 I think whoever recommended keeping him in the 3 gallon just meant temporarily while he is recovering so that it is easier for you to change the water more frequently since you will be doing a lot of that!

Once he is recovered I think it would be best to empty the 10 gallon completely , rinse it with hot water and sit it out in the sun to dry completely, and just cycle the whole thing and start new. It may take longer to cycle it and everything but I think it will be worth it for a fresh start.

For now if you can find a breeder box with dimensions that will fit the 3 gallon , you would still keep the filter going.

Thank you for telling me the dimensions across the top! Could you measure from the side of the filter to the tank wall? I think putting the breeder box beside the filter would be best so he would not be blown around by the filter current.
The boxes have holes on the sides for the filtered water to still come through, but you don't have to use the grate and a lot of them have a solid bottom that wont let food get through. It would solve your food problem hopefully because it wouldn't fall down under where he can not reach at the tank bottom.

I will search for some and post back when I find one. I would guess it wil have to be around 3-4 inches wide or less but once you give me the dimensions between filter and wall I can have a better idea!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> @Veloran @KekeTheBettaDoc ?
> These two know much more about meds than myself so hopefully one of them can chime in.
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect! I’ll make some tea tomorrow. I did a water change this evening. He ate several shrimps and finally managed to get him a few pellets too. This little guy continues to hang in there so hopefully things will start improving at some point. Fingers crossed!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> If you balance a net in the tank would it work to hold him? You could put the cup in the bottom to keep the net spread out; put a piece of IAL in with him.
> 
> I would be sorely tempted to do a full round of Kanaplex. At this point I don't believe it would hurt anything.
> 
> I do not see Ich. The treatment is 86 degrees; nothing lower would be of any help.


I don’t have a net that’s big enough to do that. The isolation boxes they have a Petco are too big for the 3gal tank, so I’ll have to keep looking online for one that’s small enough — or maybe a big net to go with your suggestion. 

I’m tempted to do another round too, but I’m so torn. Poor little guy has endured so much. I don’t want to push it over the edge and end up killing him in the process. This is so hard!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> The garlic guard will be good ! If he can still eat he will be tempted by it hopefully.
> I think whoever recommended keeping him in the 3 gallon just meant temporarily while he is recovering so that it is easier for you to change the water more frequently since you will be doing a lot of that!
> 
> Once he is recovered I think it would be best to empty the 10 gallon completely , rinse it with hot water and sit it out in the sun to dry completely, and just cycle the whole thing and start new. It may take longer to cycle it and everything but I think it will be worth it for a fresh start.
> ...


You are so kind. Thank you for helping me research. It is about 3in from the glass to the filter and so far I haven’t been able to find anything that narrow. And the length also makes it challenging since the tank is round. 

He’s eating well since he has not lost his appetite. The issue has been getting the food to where he can reach it since he keeps missing it. I was finally able to feed him tonight. He ate a few shrimp and some pellets. And I also noticed that he’s pooping and it’s normal — so at least things are good in that department


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I'd get a bigger net; it would be more immediate and can used while you wait for other things. While I am a positive person I am also a realist. I really don't think you have the time to wait. 

Garlic is good; you can use regular garlic juice instead of a commercial product. If you choose to go with a commercial product Garlic Guard is good; Kent's is not quite as expensive KENT Marine Garlic Xtreme Fish Attractant & Supplement, 1-oz bottle - Chewy.com


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I'd get a bigger net; it would be more immediate and can used while you wait for other things. While I am a positive person I am also a realist. I really don't think you have the time to wait.
> 
> Garlic is good; you can use regular garlic juice instead of a commercial product. If you choose to go with a commercial product Garlic Guard is good; Kent's is not quite as expensive KENT Marine Garlic Xtreme Fish Attractant & Supplement, 1-oz bottle - Chewy.com


I appreciate your honesty, I feel the same way. I guess that’s why I’ve been a little aggressive with my treatments — I don’t really have much time to waste.
If I’m going to do the net thing, would it still make send to keep him in the smaller tank? I really don’t mind doing bigger water changes if that the only reason, so that wouldn’t be an issue for me. As long as keeping him in the smaller tank is more beneficial I’m all for it.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

If you can get the bigger net immediantly or quicker I would do as RusselTheShihTzu says. 

I found this one and it is 2.99" x 2.56" x 4.33"(L*W*H) so it will work but waiting on delivery may not be suitable. There are not many reviews on it either.

Amazon.com : Mironey 3.78" x 2.56" x 5.12" Aquarium Fish Breeder Box Acrylic in-Tank Fish Breeding Box Hatching Incubator Isolation Box for Small Fish Hatchery : Kitchen & Dining


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

danigirl said:


> You are so kind. Thank you for helping me research. It is about 3in from the glass to the filter and so far I haven’t been able to find anything that narrow. And the length also makes it challenging since the tank is round.
> 
> He’s eating well since he has not lost his appetite. The issue has been getting the food to where he can reach it since he keeps missing it. I was finally able to feed him tonight. He ate a few shrimp and some pellets. And I also noticed that he’s pooping and it’s normal — so at least things are good in that department


I am thrilled he is still eating! That is a very good sign! You are doing the best you can, just do what you can as fast as you can. As Russel said we must act quickly.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

You can put him in either tank; I was thinking if you use the Kanaplex the smaller tank might be easier.

Any Wal-Mart, PetCo or PetSmart should have larger nets. From experience, I suggest you take the one you have with you to compare. Don't go by memory. 

You can rest a 6" net in the corner of the 10 to give it more support; then tape the handle to make sure it doesn't slip.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> You can put him in either tank; I was thinking if you use the Kanaplex the smaller tank might be easier.
> 
> Any Wal-Mart, PetCo or PetSmart should have larger nets. From experience, I suggest you take the one you have with you to compare. Don't go by memory.
> 
> You can rest a 6" net in the corner of the 10 to give it more support; then tape the handle to make sure it doesn't slip.


If I were to do another round of Kanaplex in the smaller tank, how much should I dose assuming it’d be best to treat the tank and not just medicate the food..? 

I was hopping to have more opinions about medicating as it was mentioned that @Veloran @KekeTheBettaDoc are very knowledgeable about meds, but I feel time is running out and my gut is telling me to go for it. I need someone to give me the little push I need to do it or just bring me to a complete stop.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

This might help API® Official Website It was provided by member Sweet777

Sometimes we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, aren't we?


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

danigirl said:


> If I were to do another round of Kanaplex in the smaller tank, how much should I dose assuming it’d be best to treat the tank and not just medicate the food..?
> 
> I was hopping to have more opinions about medicating as it was mentioned that @Veloran @KekeTheBettaDoc are very knowledgeable about meds, but I feel time is running out and my gut is telling me to go for it. I need someone to give me the little push I need to do it or just bring me to a complete stop.


Is it Seachem Kanaplex? 

I found on amazon someone asking for the dosage on a 2.5 gallon tank and it was 1/2 of a scoop. So for 3 gallons it would just be a tiny bit more. You could even just not fill your tank all the way up and keep it at 2.5 gallons maybe.

This is information about Kanaplex I found.


Remove all invertebrates - these are extremely sensitive to medication. Turn off UV filters, ozone filters, and remove chemical filtration like MatrixCarbon™ and Purigen™. Use 1 measure (included) per every 20 L (5 gallons). Repeat this dose every 48 hours to a maximum of 3 doses. In cases of severe infections, it is possible to carry out two rounds of treatment back-to-back. However, this should only be done if fish show no signs of stress at the end of the first round.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

If dosing in the 10 gallon it would be much easier I suppose! Just 2 measures.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

It’s a rounded scoop per 5 gallon so I feel like a little over half a scoop would be fine.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I embedded a dosage calculator in my last message.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Oops I missed that post! That’s much more effective 😏


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

I’m going for it! This is great. Thank you all so much for helping me figure out the dosage and most importantly for the moral support. I needed that! I’m going to start him back on Kanaplex today and will plan to go up to the max of 3 doses unless I see significant improvement before then. I will hold off on water changes for now or maybe just before the next dose in 48 hours and so on..? Apparently more frequent changes can decrease the efficiency of the medication. Does anyone think differently — should I continue with daily changes or none at all until treatment over?

The plan is to leave him in the 3gal tank for now just to avoid any additional stress — he has been through too many changes and handling in the last 48 hours, so I’d like to keep him as relaxed as possible. The net or breeder box plan is on hold. I’ll take my time feeding him with a long skewer stick as I did last night. He did great with the shrimp.

I want to get started on the IAL tea but I’m not quite sure of how much water to use for one big leaf, if I should boil it or just let it sit in hot water overnight. I’m still looking for more information, hoping to have a plan soon. Apparently there are many different ways to make it, just need to find the right one


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I embedded a dosage calculator in my last message.


I didn't see your message either Russel , sorry! I was just typing away and didn't even notice it. I guess messages have a habit of hiding sometimes! 

I guess Sara and I had the same ideas!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I embedded a dosage calculator in my last message.


The calculator is a great tool, but it looks like it’s mostly for liquids. It doesn’t really calculate mg — or maybe I just haven’t been able to figure it out (which is probably the case ).


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> It’s a rounded scoop per 5 gallon so I feel like a little over half a scoop would be fine.





danigirl said:


> I’m going for it! This is great. Thank you all so much for helping me figure out the dosage and most importantly for the moral support. I needed that! I’m going to start him back on Kanaplex today and will plan to go up to the max of 3 doses unless I see significant improvement before then. I will hold off on water changes for now or maybe just before the next dose in 48 hours and so on..? Apparently more frequent changes can decrease the efficiency of the medication. Does anyone think differently — should I continue with daily changes or none at all until treatment over?
> 
> The plan is to leave him in the 3gal tank for now just to avoid any additional stress — he has been through too many changes and handling in the last 48 hours, so I’d like to keep him as relaxed as possible. The net or breeder box plan is on hold. I’ll take my time feeding him with a long skewer stick as I did last night. He did great with the shrimp.
> 
> I want to get started on the IAL tea but I’m not quite sure of how much water to use for one big leaf, if I should boil it or just let it sit in hot water overnight. I’m still looking for more information, hoping to have a plan soon. Apparently there are many different ways to make it, just need to find the right one


 I am glad he is still doing well so far! I am unsure about the water changes with the medication, but just make sure you do a nice one before you put the medicine in just in case! 

Its very good he is still eating!!

I have never made IAL tea so hopefully someone will comment on this. I am assuming either way could work but do not take my advice on this because I do not really know. 

Keep up the great work and I hope everything turns out well for your little guy!


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Sorry Sara did not mean to quote you in my last message , was just replying to Dani.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

There is no set dosage for tea. My leaves are huge (about the size of my head) so I usually tear one up and put it in boiling water until it’s pretty dark. You can always add more if you feel it’s not dark enough. Don’t forget to treat the water.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> I am glad he is still doing well so far! I am unsure about the water changes with the medication, but just make sure you do a nice one before you put the medicine in just in case!
> 
> Its very good he is still eating!!
> 
> ...


Thank you for the encouragement! I just finished dosing the tank and fed him a couple of shrimps. Since I just changed the water last night I decided not to do another one before this first dose. If anything I’ll wait until the next one. Thanks again for everything! Let’s hope this is the turning point!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> There is no set dosage for tea. My leaves are huge (about the size of my head) so I usually tear one up and put it in boiling water until it’s pretty dark. You can always add more if you feel it’s not dark enough. Don’t forget to treat the water.


Excellent! I was more inclined towards boiling them so this is great. I’m making it right now. I’ll remember to add some Prime after it cools off. Thank you so much!

One more thing —How much tea should I put in the tank?


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Here’s the tea! Hoping it’s dark enough and that what appears to be oily stuff at the top is from the leaves and totally normal — I ended up using two large ones (bigger than the palm of my hand) in about 1qt of water. Still waiting for it to cool off and figure out how much to add to the tank.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

danigirl said:


> View attachment 1028463
> 
> Here’s the tea! Hoping it’s dark enough and that what appears to be oily stuff at the top is from the leaves and totally normal — I ended up using two large ones (bigger than the palm of my hand) in about 1qt of water. Still waiting for it to cool off and figure out how much to add to the tank.


Looks good! You can also keep a leaf of two in there.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> Looks good! You can also keep a leaf of two in there.


Yay! Thank you. So glad I didn’t mess it up! There’s one leaf in the tank — should I replace it with a new one or just add one more? The one in there is about a week and a half old.
Also, how much tea should I put in there? It’s about 1qt... and how should I store what’s leftover?


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

danigirl said:


> Yay! Thank you. So glad I didn’t mess it up! There’s one leaf in the tank — should I replace it with a new one or just add one more? The one in there is about a week and a half old.
> Also, how much tea should I put in there? It’s about 1qt... and how should I store what’s leftover?


When mine are sick I make my tanks pretty dark, like iced tea colour but it’s really up to you. Have you taken any carbon out of the filter? I assume so if you are using kanaplex, if not take it out. You can store the left over in the fridge.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Hey there. Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. In all honesty I would go ahead with a full Kanaplex and Metroplex 3x doses 48 hrs apart at the same time-that should treat any internal and external bacterial infections as well as internal and external parasites. If that does not work I would look into consulting with a fish veterinarian or trying Potassium Permanganate (very strong antibiotic that vets use) and flubendazole (the strongest de-wormer I have come across to be safe for fish).


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> When mine are sick I make my tanks pretty dark, like iced tea colour but it’s really up to you. Have you taken any carbon out of the filter? I assume so if you are using kanaplex, if not take it out. You can store the left over in the fridge.


Perfect, thank you! I’ll pour enough to make it dark and store the rest. 

Yes, I removed the filter cartridge so there is no carbon.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Hey there. Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. In all honesty I would go ahead with a full Kanaplex and Metroplex 3x doses 48 hrs apart at the same time-that should treat any internal and external bacterial infections as well as internal and external parasites. If that does not work I would look into consulting with a fish veterinarian or trying Potassium Permanganate (very strong antibiotic that vets use) and flubendazole (the strongest de-wormer I have come across to be safe for fish).


Thank you very much for your response! I feel so much better now knowing that you also agree doing a full round of Kanaplex is a good idea. I’m not familiar with Metroplex, but I’m going to check right now if it’s available locally so I can start it right away.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Perfect! It’s basically general cure but safe to use with Kanaplex as I don’t like mixing meds not known to be safe together. Generally it’s right next to Kanaplex in the store. You feed metroplex on the food and dose the tank with Kana 

Edit: After more research on this according to the Seachem site it is reccomended to also use Seachem Focus on the food as well to help bind the metroplex so little of the medication is lost in the water. Here are some directions I found: 1 scoop metroplex, 1 scoop focus, 1 tablespoon frozen food. Let it sit for 20 minutes to soak and feed that 1 to 2 times a day for a minimum of 10 days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Perfect! It’s basically general cure but safe to use with Kanaplex as I don’t like mixing meds not known to be safe together. Generally it’s right next to Kanaplex in the store. You feed metroplex on the food and dose the tank with Kana
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’ve been buying Seachem products on Amazon because neither Petco nor Petsmart carries the entire line and unfortunately I don’t have any dedicated fish/aquarium stores nearby. I can go out of town tomorrow to one I know has it, as long as it’d be okay to start it a day later. Otherwise Monday is the earliest Amazon could deliver it — and that’s when I’d be doing the second dose of Kanaplex. Anything else I should get to go with it or that would be good to have? I ordered some GarlicGuard but doesn’t get here until next week — so I’m thinking of getting that too if I go to the aquarium shop tomorrow, unless you don’t think it’s necessary since he hasn’t lost his appetite.

I can’t thank you and everyone else enough for taking the time to respond and help me through this process. I’ve dealt with this alone for so long that it feels great to finally get advise and support. Thank you, thank you, thank you!


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

So glad to help! He doesn't seem to be actively dying, so if you can get to the aquarium store tomorrow that would be great but 1 day shouldn't affect him too much. You can juice some organic garlic from the grocery store and soak his food in that and it should help.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> So glad to help! He doesn't seem to be actively dying, so if you can get to the aquarium store tomorrow that would be great but 1 day shouldn't affect him too much. You can juice some organic garlic from the grocery store and soak his food in that and it should help.


Awesome! I’ll make sure to get some Focus too and I’ll do fresh garlic for now. Thanks again! Have a wonderful rest of the weekend!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Good morning! He’s still hanging in there! No changes since Kanaplex was introduced, but at least he has not gotten worse. Still eating!

I wasn’t able to make it to the aquarium store yesterday, but the Amazon order is already out for delivery, so I can definitely start the Metroplex (with Focus and GarlicGuard) today. I just have two questions before moving forward...

—Should I do a partial water change before the next Kanaplex dose — if so how much?

— The only frozen food I have is brine shrimp, but I’ve read that it isn’t good to feed all the time, only as a treat. Should I get a different kind of frozen food for the Metroplex feedings or will the shrimp be okay..? He likes them and they’re easy to feed in his current condition, so at least that would be a plus. I just don’t want him to get worse by feeding him shrimp for too long since the Metroplex treatment is supposed to go on for at least 10 days.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

I would do a 25% water change an hour before the next medication dose
I generally use pellets when feeding Metroplex but brine shrimp should be fine, or you could rotate between the 2.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> I would do a 25% water change an hour before the next medication dose
> I generally use pellets when feeding Metroplex but brine shrimp should be fine, or you could rotate between the 2.


Sounds perfect! I will prepare the Metroplex mix with shrimps and pellets combined (1tbsp total) and alternate between the two for the next 10 days. I'm guessing it can keep well in the fridge for that long if that's what Seachem indicates. Thanks again!


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Hello everyone. Just a quick update since it has been almost a whole week...

So far there have been no signs of improvement. Finished the second Kanaplex dose on Wednesday and continue to feed medicated food with Metroplex (Focus & GarlicGuard) twice a day on a daily basis. I’m also dosing the tank with Metroplex and today I did the fourth dose. I’m tempted to do another round of Kanaplex but at this point with no improvement I’m not sure it’d be worth a shot.

I’ve been doing a 25% water change 1hr before adding the medication and water parameters have stayed the same. He’s still eating and quite ferociously, but I think his tail and fins have actually gotten worse. He’s still laying at the bottom with the occasional dart to the top.

Any thoughts? Should I start Kanaplex again, stop Metroplex or try something else? I could do the methylene blue dip again, but the first time it didn’t do anything — I didn’t even notice any parts turning blue. I honestly don’t know what to do. I can’t tell if he’s suffering or in pain. The fact that he continues to eat well boggles my mind. I don’t have the heart to euthanize him, but if that’d be the best course of action at this point, I would ask my husband for help — I just could not do it myself.

I‘ve tried taking some new pictures but because of his position in the tank they have not turned out good. The last one is actually a screenshot from a video I took while he was moving. It was the only way I could get full fin and tail view, but even then it didn’t work out that great.

Friday 4/2









Today 4/4









Today 4/4









Today 4/4


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

danigirl said:


> Hello everyone. Just a quick update since it has been almost a whole week...
> 
> So far there have been no signs of improvement. Finished the second Kanaplex dose on Wednesday and continue to feed medicated food with Metroplex (Focus & GarlicGuard) twice a day on a daily basis. I’m also dosing the tank with Metroplex and today I did the fourth dose. I’m tempted to do another round of Kanaplex but at this point with no improvement I’m not sure it’d be worth a shot.
> 
> ...



Hi I am sorry he has not improved, but at least he has not gotten worse.

A betta that is dying will not eat a lot of times and your boy is still eating!

Dont give up on him , I had a betta similar to yours!

At this point I am wondering if maybe something could be going on with his swim bladder. I may be wrong about that and it could still be a disease.

Bettas with swim bladder problems can still live good lives but you may need to make some adjustments. 

If it is possible, you could move him to the 10 gallon tank and only add about 2 - 3 gallons of water. Make it deep enough to run a filter and heater but you wont need large ones. He would have both length and a shallow area.

You want it to be max of 3-4 inches deep with plenty of things to prop up on!


When you say he sinks to the bottom It could be that he does have the energy, but his swim bladder is not letting him stay up easy , so a warm, clean, shallow environment would be best!

I have heard that sometimes an Epsom salt soak can help, but I do not have experience with this.

I really do not know what advice to give about the medication. If he was truly getting a lot worse, I would say his appetite would be decreasing, that Is why I think it is something physical going on!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

I am going to disagree, I do not think he should be moved anywhere. Have you tried anything for internal parasite? I’m so sorry he’s not improving.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

I missed the part about his fins, that is the part that confuses me, it is either fin rot, or another disease we are missing.... If that is the case we just have to find out what we are missing and dont stop until we do, which may be a challenge , but not impossible.




Sara, what do you think it could be? It is something that attacks the fins for sure it seems!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

He does have fin rot. I am not sure if he has something else also but fin rot is an infection so it is possible that’s what is causing the other symptoms. I am no expert. My knowledge is quite limited when it comes to diseases and meds, someone more experienced than myself may have more of an opinion on that.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> He does have fin rot. I am not sure if he has something else also but fin rot is an infection so it is possible that’s what is causing the other symptoms. I am no expert. My knowledge is quite limited when it comes to diseases and meds, someone more experienced than myself may have more of an opinion on that.


I will admit I am no expert either ! 

I would try the aquarium salt at this point though. It can not be more stressful at this point. He has had many rounds of medication that are just as stressful for him.


This may seem extreme, but if he truly has fin rot and nothing else and other things like aquarium salt has been tried , there was a video I saw where a betta had fin rot and the owner applied diluted hydrogen peroxide directly to the fins with a Q tip (fins only no where near eyes or gills!). The bettas fins did fully recovery after about 45 days time (all this time the bettas fins had more and more new growth) and did fully recover.
He was not in the shape as Danigirls betta and was much healthier, but If it is a last resort maybe it could work.

I am not sure on the exact dilution but maybe something like that would be worth considering if he just is not improving.

I can not post the video because If I remember correctly we are not allowed to show surgery on fish and the person did remove a tumor that was on one of their bettas tails with pliers (I did not like watching that part, but the betta did make a full recovery with no tumor). The second betta was the one with fin rot...

I admit it would be stressful as he would have to in a tiny bit of water only in order to apply it on the fins and maybe out of the water completely for a few seconds enough to apply it, this would be a last resort only.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

I treated my bettas fin rot with aquarium salt and he did fully recover.. His fins were very ragged! This would be the first thing I would have tried along with the IAL. 

Many may disagree but I think it is worth trying.


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## Brian Immekus (Feb 26, 2020)

Well, I am way too late to this party... I am sorry. That is bacterial fin rot he is displaying. I didn't read all 4 pages so I assume that someone asked and or mentioned at the onset that it looked very much like ammonia burn. 
I'm kinda the worst person to talk to about now because the only things that I have viewed all of have been each pic day by day and honestly despite the comments to the contrary his decline has been spot on for 15-20 days left unless the root cause rather than the side effects of the cause is dealt with. 
At this point, the choice to move or not move is not worth having. IF you do nothing he is dead. If you do the wrong thing but at least do it correctly he at least has a chance. I deal with the same thing every time I have to do oral surgery on my irrubescu puffers, I kill one out of every 6 I try to save because they will come out of the sedative too quickly and puff up but they never let that out so they die in a few hours. 

Fresh water fish parasites and a good bit of gram neg/pos bacteria die in less than 3 days in 1 tsp of salt per gal. Aquarium salt, or UN-Iodized table salt in a pinch NL C2 is the same until u change it lol. Ocean Salt works also but if you arent familiar with chemistry avoid it lol. You can NOT leave the tank that this betta is in for any reason at all for no less that 30 min. If he rolls or gets a head twitch you need to have a sep tank ready with 1/4 tsp salt per gal.

The only thing that I know from my own past experiences that might save him is Nitrofuracin Green Powder. We use this medication when we bring in our wild blackwater bettas that are hitting the red on the endangered list. It treats absolutely everything excluding parasites. It will drop gill flukes and the hangon leech types wilds are plagued with but nothing that we see in the hobby. It increases both the gill and labyrinth production ratio making this fish at least breathe clearer. Any burns, holes, dmg, tears, and gram neg and pos bacteria this is 99% effect on. 
Someone has certainly mentioned that everything we are seeing is caused by ONE thing. and that internal parasites are possible as is internal intestinal bacteria. No idea what was recommended. For parasites most betta peeps go with praziquantal... I consult for 5 St Louis Vets on their fishy friend issues and when I asked each of them to hook me up with this med in a pure form the reply was universal "You can't because it's so near to being useless when used solo that you can only get it combined." So once again we get to pay way tooooo much for something because people who think they know all things have never owned a bloody fish in their lives. I use API General Cure I prefer their mix and the results. for Internal bacteria, Kanamycin Sulfate can't be beat. 

Now that I burdened you down with a bunch of stuff that you can't get in time to help unless you happen to live here in Missouri. The thing you really need to know is what now.

100% water change.. NO filter at all.. if you have Indian almond leaves then use 1 leaf per gallon. Banana strips would be really awesome. that is also one tied strip per gal along with the leaf. If u are using a heater in the tank atm the stop. Use a heating pad that will remain on forever. 83-84 degrees most likely. My bettas wont even breed if the water hits 86+ unless they have been outside. I keep sick bettas in 1.5 gal cubes or 2.5 gal cubes. and they get 100% water changed every day UNLESS in that first 12 hours the indian almond and banana strips turn that water a proper dark brown and the fish improves. I agree with the salt. and over 80Degrees is a must that insures the cycle of everything in the tank forcing it to hit that salt while at its weakest stage. 

Honestly, everything I have said besides the last paragraph is for you to consider for your next betta/bettas. Don't give up... things happen to every single one of us. Looking at this water in each pic I can't imagine that it is anywhere near betta keeping water. That is NOT your fault either. Bettas, despite what everyone seems to think, are not able to live in mixed concrete and each bread crumbs and dog food. I have no idea what on earth ever gave anyone that idea. These people here are some of the more stable betta keepers I know. They are not pro-drug PERIOD. When I say use drugs then the fish is well past trying to help delicately. This year is my 43rd anniversary of being in the fish hobby, industry, breeding, collecting, treating, buying, and selling. I am an Ichthyologists and a binomial Ichthyologists.. guess what that means... One of my tanks crashed at 6am this morning.. just the first male that died is 150.00 loss AND the signs were all there but I got too busy with "other" projects to pay attention. I lost 8 more of the young fish in the tank and the only other male I had. so it means that we all mess up and we love fish and we learn and grow. 

If you are within 50 miles of me.. I can save that fish. IF he is still alive in that time gap. I am 55 miles SW of STL Airpport. RIght on I-44. God, dogs, and tropical fish are 3 things that I will stop the world for.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> I am going to disagree, I do not think he should be moved anywhere. Have you tried anything for internal parasite? I’m so sorry he’s not improving.


Thank you... Yes, I’ve used General Cure and Metroplex.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> Hi I am sorry he has not improved, but at least he has not gotten worse.
> 
> A betta that is dying will not eat a lot of times and your boy is still eating!
> 
> ...


Thank you. He had swim bladder issues about three months ago, but the other way around — floating rather than sinking. It’s possible that it’s happening again and that is why he has trouble coming up to the surface. This is most likely a symptom, I’m sure some other illness is to blame for his condition.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Brian Immekus said:


> Well, I am way too late to this party... I am sorry. That is bacterial fin rot he is displaying. I didn't read all 4 pages so I assume that someone asked and or mentioned at the onset that it looked very much like ammonia burn.
> I'm kinda the worst person to talk to about now because the only things that I have viewed all of have been each pic day by day and honestly despite the comments to the contrary his decline has been spot on for 15-20 days left unless the root cause rather than the side effects of the cause is dealt with.
> At this point, the choice to move or not move is not worth having. IF you do nothing he is dead. If you do the wrong thing but at least do it correctly he at least has a chance. I deal with the same thing every time I have to do oral surgery on my irrubescu puffers, I kill one out of every 6 I try to save because they will come out of the sedative too quickly and puff up but they never let that out so they die in a few hours.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your response. Unfortunately, I’m not in your area, I’m in Georgia — otherwise I would’ve taken you up on the offer.

I have treated him with Kanaplex, methylene blue dip, General Cure and Metroplex. Should I try to get Nitrofuracin Green Powder? There’s quite a bit of information on your post, so I’m not entirely clear as to what I should attempt next. Other than starting 100% daily water changes, I could also turn off the filter. There is currently no filter media in there because of medication, I was just keeping it on for circulation and aeration. I’ve been adding IAL tea and there’s one large leaf in there. They are pretty big, so that’s why I only had one, but I can certainly add more if that would help. I’m not familiar with banana strips, I’ll have look that up as I’m assuming it isn’t the actual peel. I have aquarium salt which I haven’t tried this time, so I could also add some — how much would be good for 3gal?

The temp is usually at 79 with this small heater. I have a bigger one for the 10gal but I think it would be too much in the smaller tank. I have a heating pad but I don’t see how I could control the temp since it’s only low, med and high. Are there special ones for aquarium use?

I’m very sorry for your loss and tank issues this morning. That’s quite devastating. Hope the rest of your fish make it and remain safe.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Hi Dani I would say if you can get the powder to get it, however you need to immediately do a 100% water change and get aquarium salt if you can as soon as possible and dose at 1 tsp per gallon. Use the IAL and do one large leaf per gallon.

Do not be afraid to use the salt, as it is not going to be more harsh. I cured my bettas fin rot with 80 degree water and AQ salt only and he had bad fn rot.
He has had many medications already and I really do think you should try this..


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

As of right now this is what you need to look at doing immediately as Brian said. 

100% water change.. NO filter at all.. if you have Indian almond leaves then use 1 leaf per gallon. Banana strips would be really awesome. that is also one tied strip per gal along with the leaf. If u are using a heater in the tank atm the stop. Use a heating pad that will remain on forever. 83-84 degrees most likely. My bettas wont even breed if the water hits 86+ unless they have been outside. I keep sick bettas in 1.5 gal cubes or 2.5 gal cubes. and they get 100% water changed every day UNLESS in that first 12 hours the indian almond and banana strips turn that water a proper dark brown and the fish improves. I agree with the salt. and over 80Degrees is a must that insures the cycle of everything in the tank forcing it to hit that salt while at its weakest stage.


For the bit about the heating pad, some heating pads do not have an automatic shut off and this is the kind you actually want, something that runs continuously. The higher heat from the pad will speed up the lifecycle of parasites and things if he has them and the salt will make them vulnerable. You must have the salt in the tank for this to work.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

I did a complete water change and cleaned the tank. I had to get him out so that I could remove the filter and its base — he ate three Bug Bites pellets in the process. Now it should be easier to feed him since food would not be falling through the cracks on the base. I added three large IAL and 3tsp (1tbsp) of aquarium salt. I don’t have a heating pad without an automatic shut off, but I will try to use the one I have. I will also be turning on the aquarium light (which I hadn’t been doing to avoid added stress since he gets plenty of natural light) this normally would raise the temp.

Just to make sure I do this right — since I’m supposed to be doing 100% daily water changes, I need to add the 3tsp of aquarium salt every day, correct? And how do you normally handle 100% water changes, do you take the fish out and completely dump out the water or do you drain it with the fish in there a leave just enough to cover him before adding the new water? Also, it takes a while for the IAL to do their thing, so with such frequent water changes there may not be enough time for the water to get dark. How do you get it to stay dark with daily changes — is that even possible?


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Please do not do 100% daily water changes. He is too fragile for that kind of stress. 100% water changes are never recommended.

I also don’t know what benefit a heating pad would have. He is primarily staying at the bottom of the tank so I would be concerned it would get too hot for him. Treatment for ICH and maybe some other parasites require a temp of 86 but I do not think he has ich and I wouldn’t recommend trying to alter the temp without an adjustable heater.

I am at a bit of a loss for what to do next. My only question is have you tried soaking the food in the medication to get it to him internally? I have heard good things about doing this with general cure. Might be worth a try.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

danigirl said:


> I did a complete water change and cleaned the tank. I had to get him out so that I could remove the filter and its base — he ate three Bug Bites pellets in the process. Now it should be easier to feed him since food would not be falling through the cracks on the base. I added three large IAL and 3tsp (1tbsp) of aquarium salt. I don’t have a heating pad without an automatic shut off, but I will try to use the one I have. I will also be turning on the aquarium light (which I hadn’t been doing to avoid added stress since he gets plenty of natural light) this normally would raise the temp.
> 
> Just to make sure I do this right — since I’m supposed to be doing 100% daily water changes, I need to add the 3tsp of aquarium salt every day, correct? And how do you normally handle 100% water changes, do you take the fish out and completely dump out the water or do you drain it with the fish in there a leave just enough to cover him before adding the new water? Also, it takes a while for the IAL to do their thing, so with such frequent water changes there may not be enough time for the water to get dark. How do you get it to stay dark with daily changes — is that even possible?


Sara made a good point about the 100% water changes. You do have to keep up on them though.

I almost made a big mistake when telling you about the dosage for the AQ salt. My memory must be getting kind of bad or something!

When I treated my betta for fin rot I did 1-2 Tsp per gallon not 1 TBSP per gallon so I really apologize for that!!

It was a severe case of Ich that I used the 2.5 tsp - 1TBSP per gallon...

The amount you added for aquarium salt is a good start and I would continue that for sure. It will help with the fin rot hopefully.

For the IAL you will probably have to add more as you do more water changes.

Sorry again for the dosage mix up!

I hope that we can find a way to get him better! Maybe the salt will help him , but Sara made a good point about finding something internal for him. 

I would for sure continue the salt, just make sure to replace the amount per gallon when you do water changes. So if you replace 1/2 gallon you would put 1/2 tsp back into the new water.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> Please do not do 100% daily water changes. He is too fragile for that kind of stress. 100% water changes are never recommended.
> 
> I also don’t know what benefit a heating pad would have. He is primarily staying at the bottom of the tank so I would be concerned it would get too hot for him. Treatment for ICH and maybe some other parasites require a temp of 86 but I do not think he has ich and I wouldn’t recommend trying to alter the temp without an adjustable heater.
> 
> I am at a bit of a loss for what to do next. My only question is have you tried soaking the food in the medication to get it to him internally? I have heard good things about doing this with general cute. Might be worth a try.


You made a good point about the water changes. 

The salt is not really for ICH although he could have bacteria/parasite on the inside we do not know about...

The salt can help with fin rot. I am thinking at this point the fin rot infection could have spread internally. From what I got out of what Brian said, he is thinking that the salt could possibly help a fin rot infection that has spread.

At this point the AQ salt will not hurt, because he needs help immediately.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

For the heat , I think the heater you have will be fine, I wasn't really very sure about the heating pad either but Brian seemed sure it would be a good idea. If it is around 80 degrees that should be fine I would think....

I feel as if you are getting so much different information Dani, it must be overwhelming.

I can speak from experience though that I think the AQ salt was a good call!
There are countless others who have treated fish similar to yours with it!
Here is a video that might be helpful.

You could even go as high as 1.5-2tsp per gallon and be fine. 

The lady in the video is using medication, however if you look there are other videos on using salt.


How to Cure Fin Rot the EASY Way! - YouTube


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> For the heat , I think the heater you have will be fine, I wasn't really very sure about the heating pad either but Brian seemed sure it would be a good idea. If it is around 80 degrees that should be fine I would think....
> 
> I feel as if you are getting so much different information Dani, it must be overwhelming.
> 
> ...


Thank you Sara. It is quite overwhelming, but I certainly appreciate everyone’s input. I also thought 100% daily water changes was pretty aggressive considering his state, but what do I know — I’ll try whatever is suggested, at least within reason.

How much and how often should I be changing the water? I’m concerned that now without the filter and water circulation things could actually get worse. The temperature has stayed consistently at 79 even with the light on — although it has only been about three hours. I’ll continue to keep and eye on it and somehow try to elevate it. 

I have fed him medicated food. First with the first round of Kanaplex, then with General Cure while also medicating the tank and most recently Metroplex with Focus and GarlicGuard.

I’m feeling optimistic about the aquarium salt since it’s one of the few things I hadn’t tried recently. Fingers crossed, I guess...


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

You can leave the filter on but take the media out unless it’s blowing him all over the tank. I would do 25% daily for now unless you are using medication that give other directions.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Perfect, I was already doing 25%, so I’m comfortable with that.

I was still medicating the tank with Metroplex, but with the 100% water change this morning yesterday’s dose is gone. I’m not sure if I should still medicate the tank. I guess I could just continue with the medicated food a little longer.

I wish the filter was external so that I could just plug it in, but having to put the base back inside would require me to take him out again. I prefer not messing with him anymore today, poor thing has been through too much as it is.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

danigirl said:


> Thank you Sara. It is quite overwhelming, but I certainly appreciate everyone’s input. I also thought 100% daily water changes was pretty aggressive considering his state, but what do I know — I’ll try whatever is suggested, at least within reason.
> 
> How much and how often should I be changing the water? I’m concerned that now without the filter and water circulation things could actually get worse. The temperature has stayed consistently at 79 even with the light on — although it has only been about three hours. I’ll continue to keep and eye on it and somehow try to elevate it.
> 
> ...


I think you have me confused with Sara.

It can be overwhelming for sure!

I tend to take a gentler approach using natural remedies for my fish in most cases and causing as little stress as possible.

Thus, starting at 1 tsp per gallon. Watch him for about 2-3 days and see how he is doing If there is no improvement increase to 1.5 tsp per gallon and again watch for a few days.

The final higher dose would be 2.5 tsp to 1 TBSP per gallon.

He cant be left in this for a very long time but hopefully you will see improvement within a few days.


100% water changes are a lot I suppose and the real Sara gave good advice but you still need to keep up on the water changes for sure and be sure to really syphon the bottom of the tank.


I hope he recovers!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

I like to start slow with aquarium salt. I usually dose half a teaspoon per gallon. 1 tbsp per gallon is too much for this fish I feel. 
25% water changes per day are good and remember to only put back the salt. I'm not reall sure what else we could throw at this poor guys but part of me feels like a break from all meds and intervention wouldn't be such a bad idea. This is just my personal opinion but I would stop all meds and just have him in IAL and clean water. If you feel like the salt gives you more hope than go for it but don't exceed 10 days.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Animals15 said:


> I think you have me confused with Sara.
> 
> It can be overwhelming for sure!
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! Not sure what happened as I thought it was Sara’s message. Apologies for the confusion and thanks again for all your kind advice and follow ups


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> I like to start slow with aquarium salt. I usually dose half a teaspoon per gallon. 1 tbsp per gallon is too much for this fish I feel.
> 25% water changes per day are good and remember to only put back the salt. I'm not reall sure what else we could throw at this poor guys but part of me feels like a break from all meds and intervention wouldn't be such a bad idea. This is just my personal opinion but I would stop all meds and just have him in IAL and clean water. If you feel like the salt gives you more hope than go for it but don't exceed 10 days.


I feel the same way. Probably good to give him a bit of a break from all the heavy meds. I’m giving salt a chance but I’m don’t think I’d be comfortable adding more than 1tsp per gallon — at least not for now. I think the 25% water changes, tons of IAL and salt are good for now. Hoping for the best. Thank you for all the wonderful advice!


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

I think keeping the salt is a good idea. Giving him a break from the other medication is a good idea also.

Watch and wait for a few days, but please do not be afraid to increase the dose of AQ salt if after those few days he is not improving. You can increase it gradually from going to 1 tsp to 1.5 tsp and watch and see how he does.

You do not even need to go as far a 1TBSP per gallon you could just do 2 tsp per gallon instead if he needs it.

I had two fish with fin rot. One who made it , the other who did not.

The one who survived was given the AQ salt immediately and daily small water changes.

The other was one who I had no idea how to treat because I was a beginner. I did not use AQ salt because I did not know about it in time.

The salt acts by dehydrating bacteria and parasites. The heat speeds up the lifecycle of the bacteria, so you can see how warm water with nothing to attack the infection can cause a rapid decline in fish health as the bacteria are thriving.

I hope he does well with the dosage you have now!

As Sara said though, you must not keep him in AQ salt for a long period of time. Hopefully you will not need to and he will turn out ok!

The fact he is still eating is a good sign as of now!


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

Could you please keep us posted with daily pictures if possible? 
Thanks.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Thank you. I will definitely keep you posted. I’ll try to take a picture tomorrow. I’m hoping that in the morning the water is at least a little darker. It has been crystal clear all day. I didn’t get a chance to make more tea, so I was hoping the leaves would get to work quickly.

And I’ll give the salt my best shot, hoping this dose works well, but I guess up to 2tsp doesn’t sound too bad.

Quick question in case any of you know — can a fish with internal parasites still have normal poop? I’ve read that with parasites it’s usually white and/or stringy, but his poop is completely normal so it makes me wonder if internal parasites could still be a possibility. Maybe intestinal parasites are the ones that cause white poop and perhaps there are other internal kinds that don’t. I’m just curious...


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Sorry for all the typos there! Dang I need to pre read before I post.
I meant to say only replace the salt you remove.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Whatever you do, do not keep your Betta in one tablespoon per gallon of Aquarium Salt. This amount should be used of no more than 8-10 minutes' duration. It can also be lethal for a very weak fish. Sourced from too many to count but here's just one:

"Aquarium salt dip requires 1 table spoon per gallon of water. The time duration varies from 5 to 8 minutes depending on the severity. If the disease is related to fin rot or fungal infections, limit it to 5 minutes and for anything severe extend to 8 minutes.
"Important note: _Never exceed the time duration over 8 minutes as it will decay your fish skin instead and burn its skin_." (Emphasis mine)

Researching amounts to use for Bubbles' issues the recommended dose in _not_ one teaspoon per gallon. It is one tablespoon per _five gallons_. That is around a half-teaspoon per gallon. Do a 50% water change after four days. As BettaLoverSara noted, replace only the amount you remove; IOW, remove a gallon and replace with one gallon with .5 teaspoons of salt.

Salt is also not a "cure." It is an_ aid_ in fighting diseases.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Whatever you do, do not keep your Betta in one tablespoon per gallon of Aquarium Salt. This amount should be used of no more than 8-10 minutes' duration. It can also be lethal for a very weak fish. Sourced from too many to count but here's just one:
> 
> "Aquarium salt dip requires 1 table spoon per gallon of water. The time duration varies from 5 to 8 minutes depending on the severity. If the disease is related to fin rot or fungal infections, limit it to 5 minutes and for anything severe extend to 8 minutes.
> "Important note: _Never exceed the time duration over 8 minutes as it will decay your fish skin instead and burn its skin_." (Emphasis mine)
> ...


 I feel horrible now, when I had my bettas there were many other places that said 1 tsp per gallon was perfectly safe and people even recommended 2 tsp per gallon when I was treating for Ich.

I thought that this was dose normally used.

I am lucky my bettas all recovered, but maybe I was doing a lot of harm even though they appeared to recover?

I think perhaps I am much better at keeping them healthy vs treating them when they are sick. 

I am glad this is the case of course because over the years of owning them they did not get sick often as I learned how to better care for them, but I think it would be best if the rest of you took over giving advice to Dani.

He is in very bad shape right now and I am just afraid that if we wait around, he may not be here. 

I just want this fish to recover and still believe a low dose may help, but defintely not the high dose for extended time!!

Thank you for sharing this information!!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I do not give advice based on what I find on another forum or YouTube. Too many base their advice on what they think instead of what they know. Instead, I search out long-time keepers of fish and then find studies or more long-time fish keepers to back up any advice.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Whatever you do, do not keep your Betta in one tablespoon per gallon of Aquarium Salt. This amount should be used of no more than 8-10 minutes' duration. It can also be lethal for a very weak fish. Sourced from too many to count but here's just one:
> 
> "Aquarium salt dip requires 1 table spoon per gallon of water. The time duration varies from 5 to 8 minutes depending on the severity. If the disease is related to fin rot or fungal infections, limit it to 5 minutes and for anything severe extend to 8 minutes.
> "Important note: _Never exceed the time duration over 8 minutes as it will decay your fish skin instead and burn its skin_." (Emphasis mine)
> ...


Thank you so much for your reply. Now I’m so worried that I may have made things worse for him. Since I already dosed with 1tsp per gallon, should I do a water change today and not replace any salt? That way I’d be removing the excess or should I still wait another three days to change it and still replace some..? Do I then keep water changes every four days or daily? Not sure if the four days is only initially or regularly. Sorry for all the questions. It’s just confusing with so many different opinions. I want to make sure I do what’s best for him or at least what may give him a good chance. That being said, what is your take on my current course of action — if salt is just an aid, is there anything else I should be doing instead or in addition to?


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## AlphaBettas (May 12, 2020)

I think you should do a 30-50% water change and not add salt. Then it will dilute it a bit, and make it safer.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

AlphaBettas said:


> I think you should do a 30-50% water change and not add salt. Then it will dilute it a bit, and make it safer.


Agreed. And I would still do 25% daily.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

Perfect! I will do a partial water change today and not replace any salt. I'm in the process of making IAL tea, so I will wait to do the water change when it's ready so I can add some tea in the process. Thank you both so much!


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

I know I said I was going to leave advice giving to Dani to everyone else, however I feel not giving any salt at all would be detrimental for this fish so I am glad you are not going that route...
He is in no state to wait around .

I think 0.5 Tsp would be better vs no salt at all to be honest. Do not dilute the salt too much.

I still believe he can do better with this. I am unsure if he has other things going on but we will see!

The last thing I would do at this point is have no salt at all or lower it to the point it is less than 0.5 . The heat is making the infection thrive and you need something that it will not do well in.

Yes I was a beginner when I learned about the salt, but thinking about it yesterday and considering this, I do not regret my Ich treatment with salt or treating my other betta with fin rot with salt. 

They lived for many years after treatment and if I had used something else they may not of. Like one fish I had with ich and the other with fin rot who sadly did not make it because I was scared away from treatments that might work at the time.
So yes I might have lowered the dosage if I got to do things differently, but I absolutely would use salt again. They survived and and were back to their old selves which is a better outcome than many bettas I have seen.


I hope Dani, that your beautiful boy will recover!


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> I do not give advice based on what I find on another forum or YouTube. Too many base their advice on what they think instead of what they know. Instead, I search out long-time keepers of fish and then find studies or more long-time fish keepers to back up any advice.


 I see what you are saying and it does make sense, although there have been times where I was glad I went a little off path when treating my fish. 

I still feel like a low dose would help Dani's betta. A little higher of a dose even more so, but he is not my fish so I can not make such a decision.

I truly hope he recovers at 0.5 tsp per gallon.

If we look at it this way, if we do nothing for him he will not recover, because he has an infection that is spreading. 

Maybe such high doses as I used on my other fish (this was around 6 years ago) were too much, but at this point thinking about it , I do not regret the treatment I used at the time.

They did recover and lived many years later. 

I would have lowered the dose if I could do it again and look into other natural treatments to put in their food as well, however I would much rather see the fish survive vs pass away because the treatment was not strong enough.

It may seem like I advocate strong treatments and this is not the case at all! Far from it actually. I always prefer doing the most gentle thing possible when possible. For your average case of fin rot that has not progressed , simply doing garlic in their food, IAL, and clean warm water would absolutely be my first choice and what I would do for my own fish.

I truly believe that salt treatment is crucial at this point though, as without a doubt I think the infection is spreading and fast.

The heat is making the bacteria thrive and I am personally glad she added that salt now even at a low dose it may be helpful hopefully!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

this fish is not going to be harmed by too little salt. He’s had multiple treatments thrown at him, if his natural immune system can’t take over and fight whatever he is going through at this point than salt is not really going to do much. Too much salt can kill him and he won’t have the chance.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

BettaloverSara said:


> this fish is not going to be harmed by too little salt. He’s had multiple treatments thrown at him, if his natural immune system can’t take over and fight whatever he is going through at this point than salt is not really going to do much. Too much salt can kill him and he won’t have the chance.



Hi Sara, I agree with you. 

I would never repeat the doses I used on my fish a long time ago knowing what I do now. All I am saying is I am not against using salt as a treatment and still consider it beneficial at a low dose.
I was not talking about increasing his dose drastically and I think Dani is doing good at the 0.5 dose. 
All I was saying when I said "if he were mine I would increase the dose slightly" was maybe 1 extra 0.5 tsp in the entire tank. Not per gallon and really not enough to harm him further. He is not my fish so we really do not have to worry about that anyway!

We all want this fish to get better. Do I regret recommending the large amounts of salt? Yes of course! I will not recommend that much salt again, nor will I ever use it. 

I truly hope he gets better!


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Doing something unconventional with our own fish it is one thing. Suggesting the same with someone else's fish and possibly causing it harm or death is another: We know we're taking a risk; members do not.

In the last six weeks, Bubbles has had everything thrown at him except the kitchen sink and advice to throw yet more. At some point enough is enough. He is already severely compromised and well-meaning members will compromise him even more. And his poor owner.  So much conflicting information and misdiagnoses.

If he is going to survive Bubbles' body needs rest and nutritious food. He is getting the latter as frozen is perfect for healing fish. Now he needs the former. The IAL or Rooibos will help calm him and help prevent fungal or bacterial infections.

It is a divided argument whether Ammonia is more dense at the bottom. If there's the slightest possibility it's true, I would do as previously suggested and get him off the bottom. If a breeder box like Animal15 suggested won't fit use a large net with something in the bottom to keep it open. Most pet stores will give you a Betta cup if you don't already have one.

You doing you're best but keep in mind there are some bacteria that are med-resistant. As long as Bubbles is willing to eat I would keep him going. But if he stops eating you will have a difficult decision to make.


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## Animals15 (Sep 12, 2017)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Doing something unconventional with our own fish it is one thing. Suggesting the same with someone else's fish and possibly causing it harm or death is another: We know we're taking a risk; members do not.
> 
> In the last six weeks, Bubbles has had everything thrown at him except the kitchen sink and advice to throw yet more. At some point enough is enough. He is already severely compromised and well-meaning members will compromise him even more. And his poor owner.  So much conflicting information and misdiagnoses.
> 
> ...



I would never try anything that could cause death to my own fish or Bubbles knowingly.

As stated before I was a beginner 6 years ago I used the dose I did.
The bettas I recently had did not get sick often and passed away from old age.

I honestly did not know 1 tsp per gallon could kill a betta and only mentioned it because it was what I had learned years ago and it saved countless of my bettas in the past.

Knowing what I do now I would not use this dose again.

I hope you all understand my intentions were good.

I want Bubbles to be cured like everyone else but medications can kill a fish also, even at proper dosages sometimes so they are not gentle treatments.

In that respect 0.5 tsp per gallon would not be more harsh on him, but Dani has done the best she can I know. it is stressful having fish you do not know how to make better so I feel for her.

I apologize for giving any advice at all.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Animals15 said:


> I would never try anything that could cause death to my own fish or Bubbles knowingly.
> 
> As stated before I was a beginner 6 years ago I used the dose I did.
> The bettas I recently had did not get sick often and passed away from old age.
> ...


Nobody thinks you have ill intentions. I too have treated fin rot with salt so I understand your position.

I think the part that is being missed is that the treatment is no longer about the fin rot itself. The previous treatments should have stopped it. It is now about his ability to recover. The salt in my opinion will make that recovery harder not easier.

The debate over salt vs no salt should end here. The owner has enough information to make an educated decision and anything more is just for arguments sake.

All advice with good intentions is welcome but that does not mean it will come without counter opinion. That is the purpose of a forum.


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## danigirl (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm very sad to report that Bubbles died a few minutes ago.

I did an almost 50% water change yesterday and only added some IAL tea. Last night it felt like he started giving up the fight -- he did not eat as usual, he was not very interested in his food. This morning the water looked cloudy, not the brownish color I was hoping for, it looked almost dense if that makes sense. Part of me wanted to add the filter back on yesterday, but ultimately continued to go without it. Anyway, I tried to feed him but this time he did not eat anything at all. He made a few trips to the top but did not seem to be gasping for air, his breathing looked normal. I started prepping things to do a water change and that's when I noticed that something was off, he looked stiff. I was with him when it happened, not sure if that is a good thing to experience, but needless to say I'm pretty emotional about the whole thing. I'd like to think that he passed peacefully and hopefully did not experience much pain or discomfort. Even knowing that I did the best I could, I can't help feeling guilty and second guessing every little thing I did or did not do. I guess that's inevitable, we tend to do that to ourselves.

I want to thank all of you again for taking the time to offer your advice and support, I could not have done this without your guidance. And I know you all shared your thoughts and suggestions with the best intentions, we all wanted Bubbles to get better, I have not doubt in my mind  .. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I'm not sure if I'll get into fish ownership again, but I will be keeping this wonderful community handy in case I need to reach out again. Take care.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

I’m so sorry to hear that. You truly did everything you could. 
I hope that you do not give up on fish keeping. I have had a number of situations over the years that have made me want to quit but the little creatures bring so much joy that I always come back.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

So sorry to hear about that  SIP Sweet baby.


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## imaal (Aug 10, 2014)

You made a heroic effort. I hope you take comfort in that.


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