# First Fishless Cycle Going Swimmingly!



## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

I've been reading the post here for a few weeks and you guys convinced me to get a betta instead of goldfish. This will be my first fish and is my first tank cycle.

I just wanted to let anyone out there who was hesitant about fishless cycling know that it isn't that difficult and my cycle is going rather quickly. I've had my set up for 6 days now and tonight, just 10 mins ago, I saw my first dip in ammonia and my first increase of nitrites! It sounds silly but when I saw the nitrite color change in the test tube I got giddy!

Here are a few details about my tank for those who like details:

5 gal hex
Marineland filter w/bio wheel (35 gal per hr) came with tank
25 watt heater
80 degree
Live plants: 4 x Corkscrew Valls, 1 x Anubias nana, and some Water Lettuce
Ph 7.2
Using NovAqua + to condition
No salt added because of the plants
And no fish... yet!

I didn't use bottled bacteria to start it off, but I did keep the planting material around the roots of my Anubias for a few days. I don't know if that made a big difference, but it sounded like a good idea.

So yeah, playing with the test kits is fun, it's good for your fish, it doesn't have to take forever, there is no reason not to cycle.


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## Rohland (Aug 20, 2009)

Because you have plants it would be safe to add a fish.
Especially since its only going to be one betta.


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

Do you think so? 

It's tempting, but I also kinda want to see how long this process takes. Nerdy curiosity just may be enough to keep me from the LFS.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Hello and welcome to FishForum.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

it will be good to add some salt for the betta, its never hurt any of my plants

research your types of plants, they will probably be ok too with salt


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

*Geek of Fish, aka Geek of ichthyology!*



Merchantwu said:


> Nerdy curiosity just may be enough to keep me from the LFS.


Yeah, me too. I'm already wanting a rack for my tubes, documenting chem levels, researching specimen plants, tank mates, dispensing sourced advise, blah, blah, blah.

I have a request; may we change that nerdy to Geeky? Somehow Geek always seems more about expertise and nerdy sounds more like social-maladjustment. Just a geeky sort of thought (GIT)>*GH*, @GS.


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

Dramaqueen - Thanks! It's a nice place you guys have here.

ChristinaRoss - So, you have live plants in your tanks? I've read people add salt anywhere from 1 tsp per gal to a few grains per 10 gal tank. What proportion do you use? I've done a bit of research on my specific plants and have found them listed as very hardy, but then I read on Seachem's site that salt was just NOT appropriate for a planted tank. I've been conservative and not added any so far but I also know it is helpful for the fish, I'd like to hear more about your experience.

giypsy - Agreed and so moved! "Geeky" to replace "Nerdy" =) I'm so glad I'm not the only one. Not that I was too worried, I liked this forum because it seemed that the users trended in that geeky direction.


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## Jupiter (Aug 30, 2009)

Sounds great! 

I'd say I'm more of a nerd than a geek, lol.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

yes i always add salt to my tanks. 

i keep the ration to 1tsp per gallon, never had any problems with it. my plants are thriving, but i also use seachems Fluorish plant fertilizer as well.

and dont forget to add the salt back for whatever amount you change the water every week.
salt never evaporates, so only add salt for the amount of water your changing


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## CodeRed (Jun 11, 2009)

To add to it, I'm a dork, I suppose. xD A geeky dork? Maybe.


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## ElmoFish (Jul 18, 2009)

LOL, Geek definitely sounds like more of a compliment.. there's just something about the word "Nerd" that just doesn't sound like a positive thing..


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

I got a nice surprise this morning Merch; my NO(2&3) levels registered. Seems I have a nice little chem brew going on, way earlier than I expected. Due to a little achem, unrestrained purchasing, I swapped the filter that has been cycling the 10g for a new one and put the old filter in the 5g to start it off.
I really need to clean off my kitchen counter; food preparation gave way to art projects for "Art for Early Education", which gave way to fish chemistry.


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

giypsy said:


> I got a nice surprise this morning Merch; my NO(2&3) levels registered. Seems I have a nice little chem brew going on, way earlier than I expected.


Isn't that exciting?:-D

How long have you been cycling the 5 gal total and then how long after you swapped filters did you see the NO levels?

My tank is plugging along, but it's going slowly. I'm having a problem with the ammonia test kit, I find the shades of green REALLY difficult to distinguish between 2.0 and 4.0 ppm. Consequently I think I've been letting my ammonia levels drop too low before adding more and that's why my NO2 is rising more slowly now; it's been at 1.0 for two days now. Or is it because there is a much greater rise needed between 1 - 2 than 0 - 1?


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

The 10g registered on . . consulting the geek of fish log . . . d:6. (today is d:8 of 8 since set-up) 
The 5g is sort-of passively cycling (today=d:7 of 9 since set-up) in that the only thing I did was move the filter from the 10g to the 5g without cleaning the media. A bold & chancey choice because I moved the filter to the 5g the day after the first NO(2&3) levels registered. I did a chem on the 5g, moved the filter, replaced 20%-water just to be safe and retested. Chems registered 0.25/0.00/0.00. I left that little bit of ammonia alone. This morning the chems were exactly the same.
The 5g is my party-of-five holding tank, so I have to be careful not to mess up the invertabrate's enviro before they can go to work in the 10g.

I agree w/you re:color charts for my API kit. I have the same issue & no color probs re: my eyesight. I was hoping that if I rolled the tube over the color bands, the color on the correct band would disappear through the tube; i.e. not be able to distinguish the band underneath. Some little color detail in my brain made me try it. 3D glasses or camera filters, mebbe?

Here's something else I noticed, wonder if you have noticed this; I do my chems first thing in the morning, if I get distracted pouring coffee or whatever, sometimes I do not dump the tubes right away and wash them for the next tank. I find the colors in the tubes intensify despite the fact I have waited the required developing time. This happens sometimes on the first tank, others on the second, sometimes both, on days where I am doing more than two things at a time. 

Regarding your chems; NO(2) takes longer to register/spike than NH(3), so too NO(3) takes longer than NO(2), due to the fact that they develop sequentially. Below I will add a link to an excellent tutorial from another group that I am using. Additionally, my opinion is that the NO(2) slower rise is not a matter of time/distance (thinking linear here) 1 to 2 vs. 0 to 1 but just a function of developmental sequencing. In other words, no more effort to get from 0 to 1ppm, than to get from 1ppm to 2ppm, despite the fact that things seem to be crawling for a few days.

I have not dosed the 10g w/ ammonia for oh, hmmm...6d because the formula I am using is a dose-&-wait method. In this method you wait for your NH(3) to drop to 0ppm or 0.25ppm maximum ppm before dosing with NH(3) again. It is a longer method but the end result is a more stable tank at the end of the cycle. Today, I dosed to gain 4ppm NH(3). I am sure the draining, moving & refilling with the same water of the 10g last night upset the cycle for a day. I will know tomorrow or Wednesday when I do chems.
Keep us posted!
Fishless Cycle method I am using


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

*Chem Brew for Halloween?*

Thank you! That cycling link was very helpful. After reading it through I think I'm doing a something like a dose and wait approach, but I was checking my ammonia every 12 hrs or so and if it had dipped I would add more to try to keep it at a minimum of 4ppm. I never let it get down to 1.

Even after my creative interpretation of the cycling process my nitrites are taking off and my nitrates are on the rise. I think we're finally cookin' w/ gas!

I have to say I'm getting inpatient now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the tank will be done and I can bring home a fish next weekend.


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

giypsy said:


> I agree w/you re:color charts for my API kit. I have the same issue & no color probs re: my eyesight. I was hoping that if I rolled the tube over the color bands, the color on the correct band would disappear through the tube; i.e. not be able to distinguish the band underneath. Some little color detail in my brain made me try it. 3D glasses or camera filters, mebbe?


I was starting to wonder if I was a little blue/green color blind. I'm glad to hear it isn't just me. Did running the tube over the bands work? 

I have a ton of camera filters, I like that idea quite a bit.
I'll give it a try tomorrow and let you know how it goes.


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

Nope, wish that it did, it would make things a whole lot more accurate. My observation is that the only color band that *might* disappear is the one or two above the accurate reading. So for example; if my accurate reading is 2ppm on any of the chems, the 0.5ppm color band might disappear or be barely visible.


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## zoragen (Sep 25, 2009)

I've started mine also - I have plants in & the pumps not really working (marineland is sending me another). I have the 6 gal eclipse. Tonight when I test the water I'll be back for more info!


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

I am sooooo happy to read this thread and see that someone who is new to aquariums actually took the time to research and do things the right way  That makes me unbelievably happy! Your betta is going to be a very lucky guy/girl 

I have always used the "add and wait" method for my tanks, but I modify it slightly for my low bioload tanks by not spiking the levels so high (only to about 2-4 ppm) and have had no problems. I also seed my new tanks with filter material from my established ones.

As for the geek/nerd discussion, I don't think I fit into either  I'm probably in a catagory all of my own...maybe a martial arts and exercise addict that also has an odd obsession with animals/fish geek all rolled into one? Maybe it's just called "confused" lol!


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

*Kim: You Geek Code*



Kim said:


> As for the geek/nerd discussion, I don't think I fit into either  I'm probably in a catagory all of my own...maybe a martial arts and exercise addict that also has an odd obsession with animals/fish geek all rolled into one? Maybe it's just called "confused" lol!


Not to worry, you can create your own Geek-of-whatever-code. That's what is great about the code some GC guy named Robert Hayden created years ago. 
As for fish-keeping the right way; I think it has to do with personality. Some people are wired for details & sometimes patience. I think M.Wu & I fit into that category as do a couple of others on this board. The patience thing with me was a steep learning curve, I'll admit to a really bad experience for a guppy tank I was keeping someday in Fish-tails.
Geek Code


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

*Fish-under-the-desk*



zoragen said:


> I've started mine also - I have plants in & the pumps not really working (marineland is sending me another). I have the 6 gal eclipse. Tonight when I test the water I'll be back for more info!


I remember a week ago or so when you first posted the pic of the fish-at-the-office. You and an ArtPrize entry inspired me to fabricate some furniture out of Marimo. But that is a "winter" project after all the cycling hubub dies down here.
Keep us Posted.

P.S. envious of the Eclipse. Let me know what the pros & cons are after you have worked with it a while.


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

*I love a good mystery.*

Something v. strange is going on with my tank. 

I was entering my data into the fish tank log (thanks Giypsy!) and noticed I've been neglecting my pH tests. When I tested yesterday it was below 6.0! I added some of my tap water with a pH around 7.4 (dechlorinated, of course), about 1/4 gal to my 5 gal tank as that was all that would fit w/o taking some out, and this evening it is up to 6. Also, my ammonia readings have not changed significantly in the last 24 hrs (hanging out around 2.0) and while my NO2 is still off the scale my NO3 is back down to 5 when it was over 80 just two days ago. 

Any idea what could be going on? 

Is the PH messing with my bacteria brew? And could the plants or new algae (I have a great wall of algae growing now) eat up my NO3?


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

Unsure if the ph is a factor because I am jealous of your ph readings! 
Mine are 7.6 in the 10g and between 7.6 & 8 in the 5g. My tap is 7.5. 

I am in the decision making process with regard to the 5g; I was preparing it to be a shrimp-house but not at those ph readings. I would have to bring the 5g ph down to a 6.8-7.3 range to feel comfortable. I am unwilling to do anything more aggressive chem-wise, than a 90% water change, every other day for the 5g until my kH & GH test kits arrive. My research indicates that attempting to lower or raise ph without knowing kH & GH ppm is a crap-shoot. (crapshoot=disaster in Giypsyland) 

Your chems + algae lead me to believe your cycle is further along than mine. When was the last day you dosed with NH(3)? My chem-brew is still taking 36 hours to consume NH(3) down to 0.25ppm, so I am dosing on avg every 2day. When I dose I notice a spike in all chems, not just the NH(3), that is a good sign in that the activity is at least consistent.
When I did the big, rearrange your whole life/living space Sunday, I could feel slime-coat on the submerse-heater, so something is happily multiplying, I just cannot see it with the naked eye. More research=a must. I have been reading Barr's commentary on methods as well as another's. 
My general thoughts are that logging is a must, each experience is different due to the variables in conditions at the start. Comparing notes is a good thing as well.
Off to measure new growth on the Banana plant.


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

*Back on track after the pH fall*

I really didn't think that I would need a KH kit. I read all over the place that if you were going to mess with your pH you needed to know your KH and I wasn't messing with it too much and when I did mess it seemed to stick.

Until it didn't.

I'm 99% sure my pH crash was due to my low KH (almost 0 when I got around to testing it). As it turns out my tap water has a low KH to start with and it seems, after much researching, that the ammonia cycle tends to release ions that drop it further. With no KH left to stabalize it my pH dropped like a rock! I think it was well below the 6.0 bottom of my testing abilities. 

THEN my low pH inhibited my ammonia eating bacteria and stalled the process.

I threw 1/2 tsp of baking soda in that bad-boy-tank and my cycle is off an running again! I'm processing in 24 hrs. =)

Now all I need is my NO2 to drop and I'll be golden!

Oh, and as for the NO3, I think it was my testing kit going wonky. I had a few test strips lying around and they register the NO3 at 200.


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

I think you are right on track re: your assumptions & remedy. Would that it was as simple & cheap as breaking into that 1lb box of soda in the cupboard for high ph. I noticed increasing cloudiness in the 10g yesterday, so I expect visible algae in the next week.

I lucked out at Goodwill, who solves many of life's problems. I found a little baby-medicine dropper (with clear m/l markings I can see) for water draws. Now I get exactly 5m/l in the tubes every time. It was a crapshoot with the thumb-over-tube, drop fill method. But wait, there's more! 

I have been looking online for some sort of container for aging water, larger than 1g. With two tanks I need it. I looked for carboys in every place I could think of, from lab supply houses to restaurant supply, including e-bay. Price was a no-go, $80-$100 for one 5g. Then while poking around yesterday, I came across not one but _two_ square, opaque containers! I think they are 5g each, perfect for a 90% wc in the 10g or partial wc in both at the same time! 
Total investment including tax & student discount: $5.50-ish.

I broke open that box of soda. The containers are sitting in the tub, filled with 1/2c soda each, soaking. Next I will sanitize them with bleach water for 24hr. Then flush them a hundred times. By the time my second set of foundation plants arrive this week, I should be able to use them. They are slated for the top of the fish rack, letting gravity gently refill my tanks. No more lake-on-the-tiles!
The banana plant is crazy growing, it will have a surface leaf by next weekend.


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

The 10 is cycled, so exciting. I dropped the remaining shrimp in there Friday night.
Fiddled with planing Saturday, 90% wc as well. Chems this morning were 0/0/<6ppm.
It's done.
The 5g is one to two days behind. I am doing a water swap today with water from the 10g.
Your tank must be done MerchantWu. Tell me what happened.


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## zoragen (Sep 25, 2009)

Here's he is: I named him Fins!










He looked dark red at the store - but under bright light - orange!










He's very active, likes the "broken" pot & tall plant. I baffled the filter w/ some scrubber sponge & the current is very slow. He likes swimming in it.

I don't know what they feed them at the store but I bought Aqueon Betta food (Freddy loves it). I waited till he was up top & dropped a pellet in front of him - he just looked at it, "sniffed" it - figured it was food & decided he could eat it. He had me worried for a minute!

I'm used to Freddy the chow hound:lol:

But tonight he came right up when I lifted the lid & scarfed down the pellet!!

Ammonia levels are still 0. I'll give everything a few weeks to settle before I start looking for a snail (thinking of getting an olive netrite)

I'm not sure when I'll do a water change. Maybe 20% next week?

The plants have already gotten a fert dose & I cut the light from 9 to 4 hrs to fight the algae. I really over did the light!!

I am so loving the tank!! Besides the slow start w/ the filter problem I like the eclipse.

The lid is a bit small - not much of an opening - but other than that it's pretty good.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

He's very pretty!!


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

Beautiful orange coloring.
How long did your tank take to cycle?
In my 5g I have high-ish ph, so my nitrates rise
faster than the 10g. My wc schedule
is currently: 30% 1x per week.
I keep the NO(3) to <15 ppm,
if I did not have so many plants, I would 
bring that down to <10ppm.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

hes beautiful


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

*Still Swimming*



giypsy said:


> The 10 is cycled, so exciting. I dropped the remaining shrimp in there Friday night.
> Fiddled with planing Saturday, 90% wc as well. Chems this morning were 0/0/<6ppm.
> It's done.


YAY!!! Now I'm jealous. 



giypsy said:


> The 5g is one to two days behind. I am doing a water swap today with water from the 10g.
> Your tank must be done MerchantWu. Tell me what happened.


My tank is still doing it's thing. I think the almost week with the super low pH put me off track a bit. 

I just started doing water changes last week, btw. The articles I read about cycling lead me to believe I shouldn't change the water until after the tank cycled, but my plants started dying off and it occurred to me that taking some of the funk out and putting some fresh water in there might not be a bad idea.  Did you change your water at all during your cycles?

So far my ammonia has been at 0ppm for 9 days and I'm dosing twice a day. My NO2 remains off the charts and I haven't checked my NO3 for about a week as it's been consistently high for a while and there is really no reason for it to fall. 
I tried buffers for a while to bring my KH up and my pH down, but I'm about to give up. I think with frequent changes (trying 20% PWC once every 4 days) I can keep my KH up and my PH stable around 7.0-7.6 and stable is what I'm looking for, right? 

I'm going to add a piece of wood in there see if I can drop the pH a little, but I'm not going to push it any more than that unless I start having problems again.


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## ChristinaRoss (Sep 4, 2009)

stable ph is very important, 7 to 7.6 is optimal but a little variance will be ok


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## Merchantwu (Sep 25, 2009)

I thought I read that they like their water soft and a little acid, like in the pH 6.8 range. If 7-7.6 is good then I might skip the wood.


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

I was doing the same research yesterday. BTW; don't envy the 10g, 
it has sprung a leak. I'm going to tap that free 10g source and see if
I can get the leaky one drained & planted today. 

With regard to the ph/Gh/KH relationships; the high ph (that I have) is not as
big an issue as maintaining stable ph. Keeping in mind that the difference between
7 & 7.1 is a tenfold increase. Same for K & G, they are all logarithmic. 
Since my math skillset does not include advanced math, I comprehend
the concept but not the working problems. 

According to research, it would also be my method to finish the cycling, then attempt to correct KH & GH. I have noticed the following; as the water in the tanks ages, (evaporates & concentrates salts) my ph rises from 7.8 to 8, my GH rises about 3 levels and my KH decreases a level or two over approximately 5 days.
Again according to research, KH of anywhere from 80 to 150 is generally good. 

Quoting from a site I cannot link to;

"GH is an area of aquarium chemistry where there is a lot of misunderstanding or simply down right wrong advice. I have received many a call, email, etc. over the years what do about their so-called high GH, often this GH turns out to be around 200 ppm which is fine for most fish (low for African Cichlids, and even livebearers and goldfish do better at higher GH). This is based on old assumptions of respiration in fish, as well as lack of understanding of the importance of positive Calcium ions (as well as Magnesium & Potassium) in the regulation of MANY bio processes in fish including healing, heart function, and regulation of osmotic functions."

and then;

"Although many aquarists worry about “too high GH” (based on respiration problems), this is based on long proven false myths. In reality freshwater generally it would take a GH of over 500 ppm to cause this problem."

So I conclude that my GH at highest reading of 12/214.8ppm & KH at lowest reading of 6/89.4 are well within acceptable ranges despite the high ph which is stable.
Keep us posted!

P.S. With regard to water changes; I did one 90% change in both tanks during cycling. Additionally, used the water for the 90% change in the 5g. When my chems reached 0/0/<6ppm, I acclimated the fish both times. I used the two hour drip method. Here is a link to the process in the 10g: Drip Acclimation for Freshwater fish.
Keep the driftwood if you already have it, or want it for aqua-scaping. It will affect the ph a little but
with your reading, it will not hurt anything. Your ph should stabilize again at a lower reading relative
to the tannins released by the wood. Make sure you soak it for a week or two before introducing
it into the tank if it floats or you are unsure where it was harvested.


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## giypsy (Sep 23, 2009)

I exceeded the edit limit getting a link.

With regard to water changes; I did a 90% wc in both tanks while cycling. I used 50% of the 10g water for the 5g. Once my chems read 0/0/<6ppm I acclimated the fish in both instances. I used the Two hour Drip method for both tanks.

So far, both fish have acclimated well. FredFish is no longer moping.
I have had no algae problems despite the 10g receiving direct sunlight.
However, as previously noted, I need to get my hands on a replacement
tank for the leaking (brand new) 10g tank today.


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