# Plans to breed Next summer (2013)



## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

So , With a change of plans, I will be going to grad school next fall, which allows me to stay at home ( YAY FOR FREE RENT! LOL ).

Any ways, I am planning on trying out my first spawn. Now I have done research on the matter. Here are my final questions:

I want to spawn halfmoons, however being in south florida the water is EXTREMELY HARD here. What should I do about that? Will IAL help with that? 

I plan on buying a drop master test kit. I found this based on a map and I currently have a HM male who has been thriving, but he also has driftwood in his tank ( that softens the water correct? ) and tons of live plants. So that might be why he is so happy. 

I plan on buying a 10 gal spawning tank, however I read that you may want to buy bigger so that you do not have to move the fry. Which would be the better option? 

So far I plan on buying two sibling pairs from a reputable breeder. I have been studying good HM form, and I have been stalking the threads in the breeding section on who has "good form" and why some aren't as good. I feel like I would be able to make a good choice however with more study, I'll make the best choice I can. 

I plan on purchasing BBS cultures however would FROZEN be okay?
I read how to culture infusoria and have done that for the molly fry I'm currently raising. And I'm kind of scared of using micro worms with the missing ventrals and such, so I'm going to try and do BBS, infusoria, and cooked egg yolk. Any other suggestions?

I am also going to purchase IAL for the tanks and should I have any meds on hand? I don't like to use harsh medication I prefer clean water good food and TLC lol! but if it will better my fish's recovery I will buy some just in case. 

I also will plan on buying about 100 jars for the boys and I will plan on just keeping the girls in a sorority type environment. 

My breeding goal is to create a line of turqoise halfmoons with possibly some DBT in the line later on. I really love the greens and blues together. And I want to only pass on good genetics. This first spawn is to going to test my ability to raise a spawn, so if I don't come out with tons of babies at least the ones I come out with should be of great quality. 

Which brings me to my next question. Culling methods, Which methods do you breeders prefer? and as far as culling goes, which deformities do you look for? I found someone who said leaving the male in with the fish allows him to do the culling for you.


I don't think I missed anything, Let me know if I did!


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Anitax3x said:


> So , With a change of plans, I will be going to grad school next fall, which allows me to stay at home ( YAY FOR FREE RENT! LOL ).
> 
> Any ways, I am planning on trying out my first spawn. Now I have done research on the matter. Here are my final questions:
> 
> ...


I would suggest starting with one male and two females. Siblings are best, unless you like to experiment. I have a 29 gal as my #1 spawn tank and it is getting a bit crowded... expect from 100 to 300 fry from a spawn if all goes correctly.

Jeff.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You can add RO water (don't know composition) or use IAL and other natural "softeners". Usually (not always) fry will adapt to the condition it was raised in. So as long as it is stable, it should be OK. Water pram Fluctuation is worse than less ideal but stable conditions.

In mid spring, age 3 5g buckets with dried leaves as substrates, and aquatic plants out side to culture micro critters. Add a cup of pond/river/or what ever natural water. You could also put in something dead/decaying organic like left over vegies. Use 1/3 of the top water for your breeding tank, you could add more when fry are free swimming. 

Though I don't like chemical meds, I keep them around just in case. I prefer to medicate with natural meds like IAL, salt, or garlic. But if they don't work, I use chemicals.

I'd rather do the culling. Then again I don't think the male will cull that many. If he does, I won't let him care for fry (I often keep male with fry until they're about 1 month). Depending on what I expect, I may cull a whole batch by feeding them to bigger fish.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

Hmm, I can help you with a few of these questions (I live in Tampa) ;-)

First: I use R/O water reconstituted with equilibrium from Seachem, the waste water that comes out is milky white (Shows how much mineral is in the water :shock When I do use IAL with this water I use less than normal because my pH after being filtered is about 6.5 and I don't need it any lower or softer. 

I'm not sure about the BBS, I hatched mine and used Premium quality from Brine Shrimp Direct which was wonderful. Also, I used a mix of Microworms, Banana Worms and Walter worms which all have different nutritional values for my fry when they were younger. I think the best thing you can do to prevent missing ventral's is to clean the bottom of the tank thoroughly but do give the fry a varied diet. 

About medications, I place about five drops of Maroxy in the grow-out tank as a fungus preventative along with salt. You don't have to do the Maroxy I just like it as an extra preventative.

Now, as to how I culled the fry, any fry who exhibited bent spines, I had one who had SBD and a few that just seemed to be very weak all were culled. I used the Cold Shock Method (Freezing cold water, as cold as you can get it. I put mine in the freezer until it started to frost over and then took as little water as I could from their original tank and poured them in the bucket. The difference in water temperatures is so great it puts them to sleep instantly.) because I do not have an oscar or any predatory fish. I hate talking about this but it has to be done :-(

That's all the advice I can offer for now, good luck with your spawn!

-Sincerely


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I have very hard water, it doesn't hurt my HM's, they're used to it. 
Oscars are my way to cull, they're FAST! Also, I don't cull unless there are health problems like curved spine.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

+1 To reduce Hardness without a softener:

Add either RO (Reverse Osmosis filtered water) or Distilled.

I would not use pure RO or Distilled as it has zero hardness, and therefore lacks buffering (KH Calcium hardness) from wild swings in PH, mostly due to when nitrate is produced, it also creates nitric acid. It also tends to be harmful to living tissue as the natural osmosis of cell membranes will cause too high of cellular pressure. The natural fish slime coat will protect from some of this, but I like to keep everything pretty ideal. If all you have to use is RO, you can add hardness KH by adding Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda). Salt either sodium chloride, or Magnesium chloride also will increase hardness, but not improve buffering.

Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

WOW thanks guys! I like the idea of aging water for the spawn. Thanks so much for the information. I really do appreciate it. This spawn is still far away and I'm glad because I am learning alot. 

The reason I was going to get two pairs is as I was reading some have a hard time spawning so that raises my chances of getting a pair to spawn successfully. I guess everyone really does have their own way of doing it. 

Anyone who has anymore input on the subject matter or random advice I will take it gladly! I want to be as fully prepared as I can before going through this endeavor. Although I know books don't prepare you for life totally, it helps ;-)


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I will also be going to R/O. Most breeders I know are having problems with regular tap and have switched to R/O. 

R/O does require buffers to make the water suitable for them but generally those are included in the system. Add some AQ salt and IAL. You will have to pre treat the water in tubs and it takes a good amount of time for them to fill a tub depending on your flow rate on the system itself (more GPD the more expensive with average being $150).


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Okay so say I wanted to stick with tap water, would it be detrimental to the fis


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Anitax3x said:


> Okay so say I wanted to stick with tap water, would it be detrimental to the fis


Take a sample of fresh tap water and take it to a local pet shop for testing. It is usually free.

The local water is municipal or well water?

If municipal, then you really can't trust what the current chlorine/cloramine levels would be as it will fluctuate with what bacteria levels that they find at the time.

Also have you been keeping aquarium(s) currently? How have the fish been doing as far a health? If your fish are pretty healthy and live long then perhaps your water is ok. Although fry are a bit more sensitive to poor water than adults....

If you have not ever kept fish other than a Betta in a bowl, then I don't think you are prepared to become a breeder...


Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Sorry I was in the lab writing that post and I did not complete it.

I don't know if that was meant to be condescending or not, but no I have not been just keeping a betta in a bowl.... 


Its municipal and I think I stated earlier that I have a halfmoon male who has kept his fin integrity the past year I've had him. I currently am in the process of switching over to naturally planted tanks as I have seen my betta's thrive in them. I have taken my water to petco however all they did was throw a strip in tell me everything is fine and That was the end of that. So I plan on buying a master test kit (drops) to check out my water prams, I just havent bought one because some people say you absolutely need them some say if you do the water changes you're safe, so I just decided to spare that expense. 

I'm just asking questions to know what are the best options, I'm not 12 and I've been keeping betta's in actual tanks with heaters some with filters some without. Just because someone asks questions doesn't mean you should assume I have no experience in fish keeping. I don't know if you meant to be rude or not but that came off insulting. 

Anyways thanks to all who actually told me different methods you used. 


I'm currently raising molly fry, and have found it to be fun raising fish, and I wanted to read up, and try starting a line of quality halfmoon bettas. I haven't even done this spawn, and I'm planning A YEAR ahead learning and researching while I keep my pet store fish. 


As far as health of my fish, I have good reports, the only recent death I have is that of a male who I bought from petco a year ago,I assume he died of old age because he gradually deteriorated over the course of a couple months, stopped eating, and died. I have had NO random deaths, My fish are vibrant, active, healthy eaters and poop just fine. So it is possible to assume that My water is safe, however If I were to age water as indjo suggested I think it might be a better plan as I can grow micro critters, food for the fry and I can create a more natural environment. 


Thanks for your help guys  


Oh and for fin form, I have been studying male form however for females I am unsure. Do I look for females who will potentially balance out the faults present in the male? Do their fins fall in the same shape as far as branching and the straight edges? 

I want to make sure that I can find the closest match to "perfect" halfmoon form.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

*Form*

So I decided to make some diagrams to help match potential mates by using Kanki and Pandora's sell photos.



















Pandora's Photo

A. This is to explain the front ray of the dorsal needs to be long and pointing forward. As you can tell Kanki's does so but Pandora does not, it is short and stair steps so Kanki is key for fixing this issue. It is harder to find the long front ray in a female than a male.

B. A strong 180 spread in the female is just as important as in the male, look for a female who has a very strong 180 caudal edge and does not round prematurely. 

C. The arrow is pointing at the two lines regarding her body form. You want a spindle shape in a female which she has. A bumpy, dippy female is no good.

D. Just as a male look for that arc that smoothly goes through the Dorsal, Caudal and Anal fin without being interrupted. As you can see, Pandora's anal is slightly long, once again why Kanki's short anal(Look for a rectangle shape when examining anals) is good to balance her out with.

Kanki's Photo (I redid the photo so you may see the old photo before the new one replaces it)

A. A long front ray.

B. Knife shaped ventral's that the edge points backward. Ventral's are somewhat hard to judge in a female.

C. A perfect arc through all of the fins, he is nice and balanced.

D. Just something to throw in here, The dorsal should be half the length of the body with a nice broad base. In females I believe that the dorsal is set back further than in males.

I thought showing with real fish is easier than a diagram. About branching, look for females that have clean cut fins like Kanki's if you can, Pandora has slightly excessive branching at the ends but has very long first branching.

If I pointed out something that isn't correct please mention so. I did these diagrams on the knowledge I know of the IBC standard.

Good Links: 

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=104371

http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=775

-Sincerely


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Anitax3x said:


> Sorry I was in the lab writing that post and I did not complete it.
> 
> I don't know if that was meant to be condescending or not, but no I have not been just keeping a betta in a bowl....


Not condescending, just blunt and mater of fact. If you have experience, then why be upset? I see many fails here due to the fact that they are ill prepared and seem to have zero experience at keeping fish, much less breeding... If you are going to always be defensive to every bit of advice, then why ask the questions? It is tiring to see so many "I only have one fry left" stories, and they haven't even begun to see the work involved...

Straight and to the point: Breeding Betta's is not the same as keeping a Betta in a bowl. Expect the workload to be X100 from what you are used to even keeping 5 to 10 Betta's in various aquarium.. Hundreds of fry in jars require many gallons of aged conditioned up to temp water every day. 

And what does not being 12 suppose to mean? Age has nothing to do with it. Are you being condescending to the younger Betta keepers??? ACK!!!

Best of luck with your future breeding. Just try to keep your ego in check...

Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Perfection. Now I have a much better understanding. Thank you Sincerely that was MOST helpful! 

Any other advice ? anything that has personally helped you all in your breeding?


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

jeffegg2 said:


> Not condescending, just blunt and mater of fact. If you have experience, then why be upset? I see many fails here due to the fact that they are ill prepared and seem to have zero experience at keeping fish, much less breeding... If you are going to always be defensive to every bit of advice, then why ask the questions? It is tiring to see so many "I only have one fry left" stories, and they haven't even begun to see the work involved...
> 
> Straight and to the point: Breeding Betta's is not the same as keeping a Betta in a bowl. Expect the workload to be X100 from what you are used to even keeping 5 to 10 Betta's in various aquarium.. Hundreds of fry in jars require many gallons of aged conditioned up to temp water every day.
> 
> ...





.... how did you pull that I'm against young breeders out of that? That was a major assumption

I was saying I don't like to be talked to as if I'm 12. That is all

Ego? Seriously? If I had an ego, this would be a spawn log, and I'd have probably killed most of my fish

I have NOTHING against young betta keepers, in fact most of them know more than I do and I'm 22

I understand that breeding requires a ton of funds and time, which is why I'm asking before I get into it and end up SOL with dead fry

I realize it is frustrating to see stories of "oh I'm spawning with my petco fish because I want to breed" And I'm sorry that it hurts you because It is frustrating to see the fish pay for a lack of research. 

Don't assume I'm one of them just because I ask questions and You assumed ALOT from what I actually said. RELAX I just want to be talked to with some kind of courtesy, instead of you straight out the gate assuming I'm ignorant and will kill all of my spawn

Believe it or not at one point you were a beginner and had know idea what you were doing and asked questions. 

If anyone has the ego here it is NOT me. I'm asking for help before I start, and I have the ego, oh okay


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Anitax3x said:


> Perfection. Now I have a much better understanding. Thank you Sincerely that was MOST helpful!
> 
> Any other advice ? anything that has personally helped you all in your breeding?


Start with the best stock you can afford that are closest to what you actually wish to end up with. Keep the water clean. The Master Water Test kit will help very much and is probably the best investment that I have made.

A 40 Gallon clean new Heavy Duty Trash Can with lid and a 200W heater helps a lot for keeping fresh clean up to temp water available and ready.

At first I hated the idea of snails because of my past experience with trying to get rid of the things... But I have 5 baby apple snails now and love them!

Again: Best of luck!

Jeff.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm not going to buy this guy, just checking to see how I am doing with "judging" fins and form 

How does this guy look?

Aside from his anal being a bit too long.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

A. Dorsal sweeps backwards, un-straight first ray.

B.Ventrals would be correct length if anal was short. 

C. It seems this edge curve in at the end, but it might just be the angle.

D. By doing an arc around the fins you can see that the dorsal is too short to match with the caudal and the anal is too long. Making him unbalanced.

He has a nice thick body but his topline slants a little too much for my personal taste near his head, I would like it to be more gradual. I like his branching, clean cut. 

-Sincerely


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Okay, I see what you are saying, and you're right! It's funny how much you see now that most these fish on AB have really BAD fins. I wonder why that is!


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

Anitax3x said:


> Okay, I see what you are saying, and you're right! It's funny how much you see now that most these fish on AB have really BAD fins. I wonder why that is!


I assume that is because not all buyers are looking for breeders. They make wonderful pets, and lets face it, only a few of each spawn are going to be show worthy.


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

+1 Tpocicat


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

True! They have some beautiful colors going on too  !


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