# Red Butterfly VT Spawn



## lilnaugrim

Well, here goes nothing, I hope I don't screw it up again!

So to start off, I bought my Red Butterfly VT pair off AquaBid about a month ago, originally I wanted to cross my VT girl to my HM boy since he has the white fins I desired, buuuuuut he doesn't want to spawn apparently despite all my efforts >.< So instead, since I just want the babies and can work on the white later, I decided to spawn brother and sister; Velvet and Rowan respectively.

*My Goal:* in the end will be a red bodied fish with white fins, preferably no bleeding of the red but we'll see how far that gets me. It will take a few spawns but at least I've started now.

I spawned the pair a week and a half ago but Velvet ate the eggs, I figured out because I didn't have some sort of nightlight on for him at night so assumingly so, he ate the eggs in fear there were predators out there, apparently Angels do this. So I changed a few things for this spawn:
Used LED moonlights for nighttime, regular lights during the day so he could see.
Used more tannins (Rooibos tea to be exact)
Slightly higher water level, just over the sponge filter to get a teeny bit of a current.
Used Myrio, Java Fern, and Moneywort for plants (last time only had some duckweed and Java Fern)
Fed throughout the spawning process, this seemed to go over well with the pair as they'd eat together and just chill for a moment before spawning really began.
Fed Velvet before he started to really care for the eggs as well in case he was just hungry last time.

Before I continue, here's a picture of Velvet the sire:


And the mum, Rowan, this is after spawning so she's a little tattered here:


*Pair spawned Sunday (12/21)*
*Eggs hatched Tuesday morning (12/23)*

Velvet is having one heck of a time keeping the babies all in a nest lol, poor boy, they just keep dropping back to the ground but he tirelessly keeps picking up them to spit them back into the nest best he can!

Here is the nest after spawning on Sunday:


And the eggs:


I count roughly 100-120 eggs, I really don't know how many there are. I'll get a better count later, the highest I got to was about 90 and there were still more lol

I'll post pictures of their previous spawning since I didn't get any this time but they're fascinating pictures at least and they basically did the same thing this time  I have more pictures from Tuesday but I forgot my SD card at home and I'm at work right now so I'll probably post them tomorrow in the evening time when things settle down!


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## lilnaugrim

As I promised, pictures from their previous spawn that was eaten by daddy. So far he's doing amazing this time though!

Embracing




Catching the eggs


More embracing


You can see the eggs getting caught on her pectoral fin since it's frozen as she's stunned.



Different view! My 10 gallon hangs a bit off the edge of the night stand (don't worry, the night stand is pure solid oak, that tank isn't going anywhere lol!) so we get to see underneath the tank!



He pokes her to get her into position


This explains this pair to a T, he's busy working and she's wondering why I'm laying on my back with a camera pointed at them lol


Embraced again!



Tending the eggs


More poking



Velvet's velvety beard


He has more black pineappling than I want, I'll hopefully even that out in the next generation or so







This was originally supposed to be the sire; Sam the Red Butterfly OHM


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## hrutan

I am following this with great interest.


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## lilnaugrim

hrutan said:


> I am following this with great interest.


:-D hopefully I don't disappoint this time and kill all my fry with ammonia poisoning >.< last time was a huge learning experience: Keep the spawning tank CLEAN before the pair spawns!


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## hrutan

Everything that goes wrong is a learning experience. I thought the problem more was the timing than anything else - you don't have band camp in the middle of this spawn.


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## lilnaugrim

This is true, but I still have work and winter classes :roll: but they aren't 9am-9pm either lol. Ideally that previous spawn was supposed to take place at the beginning of the summer but as you said; timing problems. guess it was doomed to start with. I feel much more confident for this spawn for sure!


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## BlueInkFish

Keeping my eyes glued to this thread!

Defeniatley an outstanding pair!


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## Crossroads

Following, looking forward to see if any marbles come out


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## lilnaugrim

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, there is possibility of marbles from the mother (technically from them both but she display's it unlike him) from her coloration but she's been stable for the three weeks I've had her so I doubt we'll have any ridiculous marbling in this spawn.


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## hrutan

Are you going to be continuing this multiple generations? I see a possibility for me for outcrossing in the future, but I want to get my color stabilized first.


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## lilnaugrim

Hopefully, that's my goal since I still want to end up with white colored fins and that won't happen with the two being cellophane fins. I'd like to wipe the iridescence and the black pineappling so that's going to take a few different generations at least.

I'm thinking, unless I can find another red male with white fins like Sam has, I'm going to have to cross to some sort of pure white, one with as little blue irid as possible, though I realize white still works on the blue layer so it's just asking for trouble. Though if I read Sam correctly, his white comes from Copper instead of white so maybe that's something....

And then I'd have to cross to a super red or blonde I think? to get rid of some of the black in them.

That's my goal but hopefully we can just get white in there first and maybe worry about the irid later, not sure how I'll go about it just yet. There's still plenty of time between now and then until I spawn again so I'll just watch AB like a hawk lol


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## hrutan

I'd fix the color pattern, then cross to a true Cambodian female, if you can find one clean enough. I think that would reduce iridescence and help get that body free of black scale edging. Maybe try with Super Red too, but if I understand correctly, Cambodian x True Red is how super red came about in the first place. You'd have to take that a couple generations more, after, to get the butterfly back.

Don't take my word as gospel, though. I might have an incomplete understanding.


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, that sounds about right though. The issue is just finding a good Cambo who doesn't have irid, the million dollar quest huh. I'll keep my eyes pealed as usual


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## Schmoo

OooOooooo~ Totally going to be keeping an eye on this! :-D


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## hrutan

If you remind me, come spring time I will keep my eyes peeled as well; the local pet shop occasionally gets some very nice VT or even HM females. I saw a load of Cambodians about a month ago and they're sure to come around again.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I get a lot of Cambodian females in my two stores, and for some reason all hms and VTs, the ct girls are always blue


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## ozymandius

very nice spawn pictures OP and thorough! lol
ill be watching 
why veiltails? if you dont mind me asking


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## aurielssong

beautiful pair!!


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## Tress

I'll be watching this thread like a hawk! I plan to breed my Red Butterfly VT boy in the future and I feel I'll learn a great amount from you


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## Nimble

If you're trying to find a Cambo female who doesn't have Irid, don't be afraid to look at CT girls. You'll find that a lot of people breed for CT for the females, which wind up looking nicer than their male counterparts, and you'll find a lot of CT Cambo females.


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## lilnaugrim

Thanks for the offer guys but we have plenty of regular cambo girls around here, most of them are actually show worthy as well, I just really hate that coloration is all :-/

@ozymandius, because I'm one of the few who would like to see VT's recognized again by the IBC. I also have had this dream for a while now for all white finned Betta's and a red body, basically a clean bi-color is what I want.

Pictures up next.


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## lilnaugrim

So daddy had one heck of a time trying to keep the babies off the ground. Unfortunately the 20 or so that were mostly left on the bottom seemed to have developed some issues swimming, I'll leave them for now to see if they come of anything but they're swimming in circles and not doing so well. But the 80 or so that are swimming around are doing fantastic!

They're horizontally free swimming! I've dripped in about an inch of water today before I had to use the bucket for other things so I say about a gallon was dripped in through the day, daddy is trying his hardest to keep the kids under the cup, it's hilarious to watch him pick up the fry and spit them under the cup even though there is no nest any more lol. They just swim away from him like "wwhhhhattt?" and he just seems to be frustrated at them haha.

These two are from last night:
This is what he was dealing with last night!


This is my favorite picture at the moment


Going to catch that fry!



And from today, yes I have some detritus worms in there too but look at the little fry!





And that's it today.


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## Kithy

Cuuuuties!


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## lilnaugrim

Velvet is still doing his fatherly duties. He's still taking some fry into his mouth to help feed them, then tries to spit them back into his "nest", it's more like a few bubbles under the cup lol He's so cute.

Also, I have still about twenty fry on the tank floor that can't seem to swim, or they have short bursts of energy and then twirl to the floor. I feel like I should euthanize them since they can't even get off the floor and if Velvet tries to put them in the nest, they just immediately fall back down. Any thoughts on these little ones? They don't really seem to be eating either, I can see the other fry are eating just fine off the worms and APR I'm using. The other 80-100 fry are out swimming just fine and eating.

Some pictures:


Velvet suddenly became Kawaii! lol



Fry!


Can you see him? He turned to look at me and you can see daddy in the background again lol




Fry always love the thermometer


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## Tress

They're adorable <3


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14

I hate to say it but if they can't swim or eat they'll die on their own and rot in the tank. I would remove them (whether that means euthinizing or putting them in rehab hospice)


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## ozymandius

YEAH FRY!!!! I love your photos of your boy doing his fatherly duties. Beautiful!


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## lilnaugrim

Thanks!

Yeah, I figured I'd euthanize them. I do have snails in the tank so if they die, the snails will be there in a jiffy haha. But yeah, if they haven't improved tomorrow I'll take them out, it's too late for tonight.


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## lilnaugrim

So it seems that daddy did the dirty work for me! I wake up to find no more poor babies on the ground struggling. So either one of two things happened; he magically motivated them into getting up to join the others (lol), or he ate them. My money is on that he ate them ;-) Hey, works for me! Less work I have to do in the end.

He's been patrolling the tank all day in case of predators, he doesn't touch the healthy fry though. He'll stop to inspect them and then they dart away and he goes on his merry way, it's like a health inspection or something lol. He's cute. I'll keep him in as long as he won't touch the healthy fry, eating dead fry and disabled ones? I'm fine with that ^_^

Dripping in more water today, should be about another gallon or gallon and a half; hard to tell from the bucket.


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## hrutan

I've been told that Daddy is the best decision maker when it comes to culls...at least as far as health is concerned!


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, makes sense! I mean, they can communicate technically so he knows them best. I could see they were failing of course but I'm happy he took it over. I'm not squeamish when it comes to euthanizing, I do it if I have to if there's no quality of life and those little ones didn't stand a chance. I assume it was because they were left on the ground longest while he kept trying to pick them up? Most of them would stay up but those ones kept falling back down immediately so I assume something happened from that whether it was a bacteria or they just didn't form properly.


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## hrutan

I have no idea. That seems reasonable.


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## SkyDye

Beautiful pair! I shall be stalking this thread from time to time  Hope it goes well! Will you be selling some of the fry when they are of age?


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## Nimble

As hesitant as I am to add VT to my line(when it gets started) If things go well for yours, I might snag one to add BF to it... just because BF is cool.


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## lilnaugrim

Lol nimble. And yes I will be selling the fry here if all goes well!!!


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## Lucillia

Babies!


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## BettaLover1313

Subscribing, I enjoy watching the fry grow and develop ^^


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## lilnaugrim

So they are a week and one day old at this point and doing fantastic! I see a few stragglers in the eating department but I'll leave them for now. I seem to have some fry that have stayed white and others that are getting a slight orange/red tinge to them, it's rather interesting to see that development so far! None of them are actually colored, they just have a tinge to them and it's not from the worms or anything since I can see clearly they're all eating them well.

Tank is almost full and ready to start doing some water changes soon!

Oh daddy was taken out yesterday due to watching him actively chase and eat a fry :roll: I don't want to chance it and a week with them is fairly long I guess, he's moping a bit at the moment but he's not depressed or anything so I'm sure he'll be fine. He'll go back into the 20 gallon split once another fish leaves, he'll have more stimulation that way.

Here are some pictures of the little ones:





They are very curious little ones too, quite fearless





Daddy pouting a little but he's fine


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## hrutan

Magnificent pictures. Isn't it a wonderful feeling to realize that while you're watching the babies, they are watching you right back? :-D


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## lilnaugrim

Haha yes!! I love when they observe you, wondering what you are! It's amazing to think that I'm their first experience with people too!

And thanks! I thank my digital photography class in helping me refine my picture taking skills ^_^ and of course my DSLR helps too rather than a point and shoot with a broken focus :roll: lol


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## Nimble

It's a shame that he was a baby-eater, I expected good things.

I'm debating to myself whether to do a father-in or father-out method for my first spawn. What do you guys think I should do? Angostura seems a touch aggressive, so I'm not sure if that translates to being a baby-eater or not.


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## hrutan

What I've heard is, if the male beats up the girl during spawning, take him out. If there's very little injury, it's more likely he'll be safe to leave in.


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## Nimble

Thanks for the tips, hrutan. Angostura is a bit bigger than Smirnoff is at the moment, so I think a few weeks of heavy feeding on blood worms and brine shrimp should hopefully help her catch up. Otherwise, if he's a rough stud, I'll have to keep a close eye on them so that he doesn't hurt her.


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## Lucillia

Interesting Hrutan, what if its kinda in between? My male doesn't tear her up but he does give her some nips.


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## hrutan

I'd go for tried-and-true any time you don't know for sure.


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## lilnaugrim

He really only ate a few if he really did actually eat any, I can't be too certain that he wasn't eating unhealthy babies honestly but I just didn't feel comfortable leaving him in any longer. It's not like they need him anyway so I'm really not concerned about it, a week is good enough for me!

But what I learned is that you shouldn't take the daddy out until the fry are actually swimming on their own, not just horizontally swimming because there could still be plenty who aren't as formed yet so, as long as he isn't eating them, keep him in as long as you can.

Took this with my phone, I cheated and put my 10x macro lens over top the camera haha, works great! It's cheaper than those phone camera mini lenses too, I bought my 1x, 2x, 4x, and 10x all in a nice little set for about 10 bucks, kind of sucks to hold it against the phone but hey, it works!


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## Nimble

It's greater magnification and detail than you could've gotten with just your phone, so there ya go~ Pretty little babies.


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, well the phone I have now (dad bought me the Moto X) has the equivalent camera to my Canon Powershoot that's 3 years old lol. So it's a good phone regardless, better than my old enV II lol


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## lilnaugrim

So I totally took more photos but my phone was acting up and didn't capture like ten of them so I only got four :-/

But you see the color differences! Most of them are brilliant white but a good handful are red! You can see the difference here!



lol My phone magnifies up to x4 I think so this was just magnified through that and then through my x12 macro lens hahaha


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## myexplodingcat

Wow, what a difference! Is it totally genetic, or are you feeding a mixture of different foods and that could have resulted from one little guy liking a different kind of food than the other?


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## Nimble

Probably genetics. The ones that are showing up red might be the reds, and the light ones will likely become Cambodians. Though, it could be food as well.

I know that my Cambo girl, Smirnoff, is more fond of frozen/thawed bloodworms than she is frozen/thawed brine shrimp. It might partially be because she's a smaller than my male, Angostura, and can't take as big of mouthfuls.


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## lilnaugrim

I'm more than willing to bet it's just going to be the reds versus cambodians ^_^ It's just all very interesting!

Today starts the day I start losing sleep over water changes! Winter Term starts today, it's a single class four hours a day four days a week for two weeks.....it's only a COM 100 class so it shouldn't be difficult but I'll miss coming home at 2:30 to do all my fish stuff and then watch my shows >.< Sigh.

Fishy fry are doing fine, tomorrow they are two weeks old. I can't wait until they're big enough not to get sucked up in the airline tube siphon >.>


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## myexplodingcat

Ouch D: I've got something similar coming up. It's C# programming for me. But that doesn't start until the 21st, and I'm pretty sure it's only 2 days a week. Still, it's four hours long and starts at 8:00 AM. Good thing I really like programming.

My mom woke me up at 6:30 this morning thinking that my classes started today. D:


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## lilnaugrim

Oh lol, that sucks. I had to get up at 7 anyway since I'm working right now till 12 and then I get to go to my class. It's communication and I'm usually good at talking so I just hope the course load isn't ridiculous--staying up till midnight to finish homework or anything like that; that'd be a killer for both me and my fry >.<

I'm thinking about moving a few of the floating fry to a breeder box in my 29 to see if that will help. They look terminal, just all around weak; no parasites or anything, just not eating and I don't think it's water quality, either just not getting food in time or just were pre-weakened by something. Worth a shot I figure :dunno:


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## aselvarial

Stalking just because I like to see VT being bred for some of the pretty the other bettas have been enjoying


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## DBanana

Subscribing


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## lilnaugrim

*sigh*


I've done it again.....I'm hoping I've saved a few fry by transfering them but I won't be able to check them until I get home tonight around 5 after my class. This class is wicked intensive but that's not the issue.

I thought that I'd be okay with not aging my water so long since I only have one bucket and no other room to be setting up a tank just for aging water, at least not that I could pull from easily for water changes. I did the water changes but because my pH is so low (5.0-5.5) it fluctuates quickly and drastically. I've killed my fry with that. I believe that is the reason that my Sparkler fry did so well; I didn't change the water so much or in a large amount such as I did with the Bettas. I need to tailor this to my water I've realize.

I feel terrible about these little guys, some of them were getting real big too! And usually red takes a long time to color up but the biggest ones were the most red; head to tail fin! I'd never seen that before.

Regardless, I'm going to try again with these two, the parents are already wiggling and ready to spawn.

What I really need is a matured tank that is heavily planted; the fry will grow slower in the end as I know but they will actually be stronger with less big water change in an established planted tank. I will probably plant my 10 gallon in this case and let nature do it's thing. Otherwise, even if I do take water from my 29 gallon which has been set up a full year now, it's not going to make a difference in the spawning tank. There's only so much water I could pull from the tank daily before I start messing up the water in the 29; too many water changes means disturbance in the establishment and the can cause pH fluctuations again. So my best bet is going to be planting my 10 gallon and letting nature help me out here because I sorely want to breed these guys.

Sorry about disappointing again :-/ Velvet has gotten a lot better at his nest making though so it should be easier for him in round three. Rowan went through some Ich but she's doing fantastic now, even better than Velvet honestly! Here's a pic to cheer myself and everyone else up about Velvet's nest the other day:


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## Bettalovinmomma

Aw :-( I'm sorry. 

But that nest is a beauty!!


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## BettaLover1313

I'm sorry that happened, lil.


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## Kisiel

Aww no, I'm so sorry  Third time lucky I guess, eh? Hopefully everything will go better for you next time


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## LittleBettaFish

I have the same problem with my water because it is so soft. I was going to say, perhaps it's best to have a very large tub or tank that is very heavily planted and move the fry into that. Then feed more sparingly, do fewer water changes, and allow some natural self-culling go on. 

Yes, you will end up with fewer fry and fry that grow more slowly, but this is what I do with my wilds and believe it or not they do still grow and I end up with the healthiest fish surviving because they weak ones pass early on, and the runts are picked off by the fastest growing fry. 

Maybe do bigger than a 10 gallon. That's pretty small. When I use a 10 gallon I usually only get about 12-20 fry surviving from my wild betta spawns.


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## lilnaugrim

Thanks for the insight LBF! Unfortunately as I noted in my journal as well, I have larger tanks but the issue is I have no more floor space for the tanks until I move out some bigger objects like my old Amps. Unfortunately, I've been so preoccupied with my fish that I've had no gumption to clean my room :roll: The next biggest tank I have is a 33 gallon, I'd probably do that one but I'd really like to redo the glass on that tank, it's hella scratched but still functional.

I did plant the 10 today and I'll let it mature a little while. The sponge filter has matured media so it's insta-cycle. I've used mineralized top soil, a bit of laterite/potash mix, FloraMax and topped with regular black sand. Just my regular M. Mattogrosense in there at the moment with my small Java Fern and two chains of Pygmy Chain Swords that came with a bit of dwarf hairgrass lol. Velvet likes it so far XD


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## lilnaugrim

Oh...I must have deleted the wrong picture >.< Here's the picture that was supposed to be in the last post


I also have a surprise!! 

So I moved a few fry over the 29 in a Breeder box, well one of them is actually doing fantastic!! There are a few others in there who are trying their best but aren't doing as well as the one. I'm happy just to raise one at the moment. It's one of the red ones.

Gobbling up all the food it can


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## DBanana

Might have genes that allows it to do well.  Tenacious little ones are a joy.


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## lilnaugrim

I don't think it's the genes as to the issue with my pH being so low. Though I know the VT's tend to be stronger than some of the fancier Betta's.

I posted in my journal but will post here too of course

I have three baby Betta's who are doing fantastic in the breeder box of the 29! I have a fourth in there but he's iffy, he's doing his best to get around but I'm afraid it's not enough poor thing. But I have three lovely red ones! I hope I can continue to keep them!

This is the red one


And this one is more orange-ish at the moment


Orange one



And picture of the two so I can prove I actually have two lovely babies still. And yes that's a baby MTS that got in there.


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## DBanana

What i was saying was that some of them may have genes that make them more tolerant of low ph water.


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## Bettalovinmomma

Yay for babies! Hope they continue to do well.


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## lilnaugrim

So the babies are still doing well! I've copied and pasted this from my journal so you all can read and see the pics here too ^_^ Enjoy:

So funny story time.
I was looking at the baby Betta's in the 29 breeder box and suddenly this little yellow fry came up and I was like 'what the?? I don't remember having a YELLOW fry!' and then I realized it wasn't in the breeder box, it was between the box and the glass and that's when I realized it was a little guppy fry! So I scooped it out and put it in with the two little Betta's, they're all about the same size.

The orange Betta is the one with a slightly crooked spine, though it seems almost like it straightened out some....but at first I thought it was going to die since it seemed weaker than the healthy red one, but apparently he took a turn for the better and is all spunky. He immediately went up to the guppy and just like a Betta; has to bite it to inspect to find out what it is. The poor guppy was all frightened and swam away towards the Red betta, that Betta was also interested in the guppy but didn't bite it thankfully, just kept following it around lol. Baby Betta's are hilarious! But in the end they're all getting along and eating together just fine too. Babies are fed once a day and they snack on the decap brine shrimp all day but still only get worms once a day or every other day since that's what I have. I have to check my grindal worm culture >.<

This is the red one, it's hard to tell the difference in pictures though. In real life this guy is super red and the other is lighter



This is the orange one inspecting the poor guppy fry


Red fry and guppy below it


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## lilnaugrim

So the two Betta fry and guppy are doing just fine. They even took Grindal worms today! They routinely eat Decap BBS and some ground up NLS flakes. The little red one has learned to eat from the top, the orange one is a bit of a bully but he doesn't hurt any of them, he seems pickier with the food, he likes the live stuff so I switch it up daily so they all get something good to eat.

I've also reintroduced Velvet and Rowan again to get another spawn from them, Rowan is teeming with eggs and Velvet's made a nest ^_^ She was released today.

Here's the little orange one and the yellow guppy after eating Grindals.


And the sweet little red one ^_^


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## lilnaugrim

Huh did I not put the second pic in? My bad. I'll upload it when I get on my laptop. Just wanted to say that velvet an rowan are breeding this morning!


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## BlueInkFish

Congrats!!! The fry will turn out great


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## lilnaugrim

Here's the red one that I forgot to post last night


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## KitDewStein

It's reflection is funny looking XD


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## lilnaugrim

lol yeah it does.

Here's some pics of Velvet being a good daddy again!




They actually spawned rather quick this morning but I still got a lot of eggs! Looks like 200  yikes lol Rowan's been out since this afternoon.


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## Bettalovinmomma

^_^ Yay! Can't wait to see the babies!!


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## Tress

Yay  -bounces eagerly-


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## BlueInkFish

Very exciting!!!


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## lilnaugrim

So this was the nest and eggs as of the day before last


And then these were from last night
Velvet is still terrible at keeping the eggs up in the nest :roll: so eggs on the sand! He hasn't had any trouble picking them off the sand, obviously if this were gravel it wouldn't work but so far so good! Eggs look healthy



Just some of the bubbles he had going


Eggs in part of the nest






And this was from this morning!!! We have hatching!!! Still a few more hours for all the eggs to hatch but they're looking good so far!!



I actually kept his light on all night this time rather than the moonlights since he was slacking on his nest last night so he needed to see what he was doing. I covered the tank with thick black material so I could sleep ^_^


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## Tress

;3; look at all the wittle babies!!


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## lilnaugrim

I think I'm addicted to Spawning lol. But technically I haven't hit the "real" work yet of jarring XD I'm sure I'll hate it by then. But I definitely want to do that other spawn of the Black girl and my Black based marble HMPK boy too. 

I adore seeing the babies and it's a thrill to watch them grow up healthy!

The other older babies are doing just fine! They've been plowing down my Grindal worm culture practically lol. I love seeing their bellies fat after a feeding! They only get fed once a day though but they're growing right along! They have all their fins so far so I'm hoping for ventrals too! I haven't inspected close enough to see if they have them or not yet. Not entirely sure when they start to show up either.


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## lilnaugrim

So the baby babies are doing great so far, it's hard to see them since I have a forest of plants in there but I see them swimming about occasionally. Feeding a mixture of microworms/banana worms/walter worms(? I think) once a day so far and that's been doing great. There's a few dead fry on the bottom but daddy will eat them eventually, he's good at that.

It was so funny to watch him yesterday, yesterday was the time they were just starting to venture out from the cup and start to explore but daddy didn't think it was time just yet so he kept going out to capture them and spit them back into the nest XD lol he's so funny! They kept just swimming right back out though and he'd go around all day trying to keep them in one spot haha, he's a good dad.

The older two are growing like weeds again! They hit a plateau a week or so ago but now I can see them really growing again which is great. I kind of feel bad for the Guppy fry in there still since he sort of gets picked on by the two Betta's >.< They also mock spar as well.

These are just over a month old now, for not having frequent water changes, they seem to be almost on schedule for their growth, just a tad behind but since they've been eating Grindal worms, they've really kicked it up a notch!

Red and orange one


Looks like the orange one will be a Cambodian


Sorry about all the darned green spot algae, I have it real bad. I need to take a razor to it so I can actually see my fish >.<


The guppy is in this one.


----------



## KitDewStein

Lol the poor dad XD

awww they look so cute! Can't wait to seem them full grown


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## lilnaugrim

You and me both lol I just keep staring at them when I'm around and whisper "hurry up and grow already!" haha


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## BlueInkFish

XD I feel you lil!! Their cute and beautiful!!!


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## Sadist

They're getting so big!


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## lilnaugrim

New fry are a week old today! They're doing fantastic in the 10, plants are growing like weeds too!

My older babies are just over a month now :-D

Guppy and the Orange one


Guppy shying away from the red one



Red one





Orange one


Red one






Red one and Orange one doing a little sparring


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## BettaBoy51

yay!


----------



## KitDewStein

Man they are growing up fast o.o even the snail


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## Sadist

I love the cute little sparring practice!


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## lilnaugrim

The snail? I have gajillions of MTS so it could be another one you're seeing....can't even find it in the photos lol.

But yes, I feel like they're sprouting like weeds now!! I'm so excited!!

The newer fry are doing fantastic and eating so well! Daddy is still in and pretty much ignores them so he'll be staying in for quite some time :-D


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## minikin

I just have to say I love your spawn log! I've been really curious and checked out a bunch over the past couple days, and yours is so interesting with all of the pictures! Some of them are quite poignant, like the one with daddy staring at the one little fry. I'm really excited to see your your babies turn out!


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## lilnaugrim

Thanks minikin! I love taking pictures and in fact, I just took a boat load more lol

First, here's the tank at the moment, I'll begin dripping in some established water from the 29 soon.


Velvet still being a grand daddy! I feel bad though, there are some babies that aren't doing as well but he's maintained his nest and has been continuously (when he's not begging for food) putting them up in the nest but they just dart out and sink back down again. Eventually I'm sure he'll eat them for some natural culling.



It's so strange to see them at this stage again!




And now I have LOTS of pictures of the older two! They're both growing and eating like champs!

Red one, look at those tiny ventral's! So cute!





Nomming on Grindal worms





Orange one


And now we're fat lol


This is orange one, body is getting redder but head is still orange-ish colored


Red one



Orange


Red


Orange I think


Red


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## Nimble

Yay more babies!


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## minikin

They're both growing up so nicely and it look like the guppy is too! There really is still a big color difference between them so it will be interesting to see how they turn out, and definitely cool to watch the newest babies start to color up! :-D Velvet is such a good daddy!


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## lilnaugrim

Thank you! Yeah, the guppy seems so slow compared to my little Betta's but livebearers in general usually grow rather slow compared to egg laid fish. It's still strange though, that when the guppy was born he was already bigger than the two Betta fry and now they're dwarfing him! I feel bad for the little gup though, he's getting food but I feel like it's not as much as the Betta's. Again, strange to see the differences in these fish, usually guppies are voracious eaters as are Betta's but he clearly is intimidated by lacking his own species in the little breeder box >.< Hopefully a few more guppy fry come along soon, I have four gravid females in different tanks so hopefully I can make him feel a little more comfortable soon!!


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## konstargirl

I love the fact that the baby bettas are co-existing well with the guppy fry..


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## lilnaugrim

Well is a relative term lol. They do try to bite the guppy a lot and chase it but so far, no real damage as been done. I think they're trying to stake out territories and the poor guppy is just always in the way. So while they aren't killing it, they still aren't like best buds lol. As I said, I do feel bad for it >.< but oh well, Stratus my Angel would eat it in a heart beat if I let him out.


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## konstargirl

Oh okay.. Can't wait to see them how they look full grown!


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## lilnaugrim

More pictures of the older babies! They're a month and a half at this point :-D

Red






Orange





And I took away Velvet's cup so he'd stop making bubblenests but he went right on to make another one in the plants lol!! He's such a silly daddy!


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## minikin

You can't say he's not dedicated, haha. I love that little red face!! <3


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## BlueInkFish

That red fry... It's such a vibrant color!

The orange one is adorable as well !


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, I love the little red one! I'm thinking about separating them out soon. I'll just get another breeder box and put it on the other side of the tank so they'll be separate from each other and possibly grow faster since they won't be exhibiting as much growth stunting hormone ^_^

I can't wait to see them all growed up!


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## BlueInkFish

I'm very excited to see them when their bigger!!


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## lilnaugrim

Love the fact that I can take photos of the older ones without my macro lens now!

Red was the only one who is photogenic though lol


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## BlueInkFish

Awesome. Very adorable !


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## Sadist

He's eating! So cute!


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## konstargirl

So cute and red now! <3


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, Red is really red. Orange is still orange lol, he's getting more red but still more cambodian coloration. They're still growing so well! The guppy had a growth spurt too :-D



Guppy likes to follow Orange around lol




Red :-D


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## BlueInkFish

Very cute!!!!!!!


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## minikin

I think the little red one is my favorite but the orange baby is very cute too, and you have to love the bright yellow guppy. Out of curiosity, it really almost neon yellow in person or is that lighting?


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## Nimble

One of the fry has a little bit of a hump. Let's hope that straightens out as he gets bigger.


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## lilnaugrim

Yes, I am aware of that. Orange has a dip just behind the eyes and red has a hump just before the dorsal. Neither will most likely be bred unfortunately.


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## lilnaugrim

minikin said:


> I think the little red one is my favorite but the orange baby is very cute too, and you have to love the bright yellow guppy. Out of curiosity, it really almost neon yellow in person or is that lighting?


Yep, guppy really is that bright yellow. Most usually start as yellow and color up as they grow which usually takes about 2 months for them to get a good set of colors in but their colors can change right up to six months old and sometimes longer from what I've seen in my older boys.


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## konstargirl

Do you sell your fry out Just curious..


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## lilnaugrim

Well...I will be. These are my first fry sooooo yeah. lol


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## lilnaugrim

So the youngest fry are growing well, I have a lot of varying sizes at the moment but all seem healthy. Velvet is still in there and pretty much ignoring the fry most of the time, just putting around!

The older two fry are growing very well, I may have to separate them shortly, they don't harm each other but they do pick.

So I wanted to try something else. Sam finally started to make bubble nests so I have a feeling when I tried to breed him previously, he was just too young. (Sam is the Butterfly HM that was supposed to be the father of all this spawn) So Rowan was in the section next to him and extremely eggy. So I threw in the cup and let her stay in a cup overnight, released her in the morning and today I got eggs from them!!

I separated Rowan out after Sam kept chasing her, not courting chase but chase chase. So she went back next door while Sam cares for the eggs. I may follow them here in this spawn or may do a different log if enough survives. There are about 30-40 eggs and they look to be fertilized, nice a yellow-ish colored.

Yesterday when she was released:


Eggs!


And before I took her out. Neither sustained any more nips! Strange for a breeding pair lol. This is the third time I've bred Rowan XD she's a real champ!


Speaking of champs, I wish I had the space and a female for this beautiful boy; Alloy is champion bubble nester at the moment. His nest is always nice and thick, his bubbles get big too!
He was flaring at my finger here:


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## Fenghuang

Beautiful pictures. I love Rowan. She is so pretty! I keep confusing Alloy for Trapper, they both are such handsome dark plakats.

But wait, are the eggs just going to be left to hatch in that tank?


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## lilnaugrim

Lol, yeah Alloy is Steel blue whereas Trap is black, Trap is also bigger lol.

Yes, for now. The fry usually stay around the nest for the first few days normally. I know I'll lose a few (providing that Sam is actually a good daddy and not a dumbbell) through the divider but I'll get another breeder box and put them in the 10 with the younger VT spawn. And then, once they're big enough so as the other fry don't eat them, I'll hopefully combine them both. But since there is only roughly 30-40 eggs in there and providing they're fertilized, I'm not too worried at the moment.


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## Fenghuang

I know, but black bettas often times look blue in photographs. 

Ah, I see. I just saw the tail of the female(?) guppy next door and got worried for the little 'uns. My guppy colony would devour all their fry if I didn't keep a watchful eye and pulled them as soon as they popped out.


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## BlueInkFish

Ahhh, so beautiful!


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## minikin

Aww, I hope Sam is as good of a daddy as Velvet! He's a very beautiful (should I say handsome?) fish!


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## lilnaugrim

Fenghuang said:


> I know, but black bettas often times look blue in photographs.
> 
> Ah, I see. I just saw the tail of the female(?) guppy next door and got worried for the little 'uns. My guppy colony would devour all their fry if I didn't keep a watchful eye and pulled them as soon as they popped out.


Yep, I know. Sam actually moved the eggs from under the cup and to the back of the tank lol So I took the cup out and let him do his thing. I'm not sure if he's eaten the eggs, I do see a few but it's hard to tell with all the plants in there. 

I actually found a guppy fry today lol! I was looking at Sam when something caught my eye and for a moment I was so confused: "Betta fry?!!? Already?!?!" and then I realized it was just a tiny guppy haha. It's sitting in a net right now. But yeah, they'll go into a breeder box or net shortly.



litelboyblu said:


> Ahhh, so beautiful!





minikin said:


> Aww, I hope Sam is as good of a daddy as Velvet! He's a very beautiful (should I say handsome?) fish!


Thank you thank you! I hope he will be too ^_^


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## lilnaugrim

Still not sure if Sam ate all the eggs or not, it's hard to see behind all the plants; only downfall. He's still guarding the nest though and honestly just sitting under it, staring all day lol. His nest is definitely stickier than Velvet's was since all the eggs had stayed up there extremely well whereas Velvet's kept falling.

However, I did spy this little guy!!!! See it?


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## minikin

Er I see a lot of small things that could potentially be nothing or something considering my bad vision lol


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## lilnaugrim

Oh lol, sorry!! Here's the little fry circled ^_^

View attachment 510138


EDIT: oh and got new breeder boxes today and so I split up the two older ones, Orange kept the guppy since he's a little less aggressive than Red is lol
Red in his new place


They're also eating NLS grow pellets too now! Those are about .3-.5 mm sized pellets to give you a slight idea of size if you have .5 mm pellets like NLS Small Fish


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## minikin

Aww he/she is getting so big! About how long are they now? I have to confess, my mom looked at the picture and thought those were two little eyes and I told her I thought they were holes in the leaf; it's sad that her eyesight is better than mine!


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## lilnaugrim

The eldest fry were born Dec. 24th if I recall correctly...let me take a look at the first post lol...ah, the 23rd, I was close. So they're two months old today!!


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## BettaBoy51

is the little red one a butterfly? and how are the littler ones doing?


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## lilnaugrim

Yes, both of the 2 month old fry are red cello butterflies at the moment. That could change as they age.

The younger ones are still doing great, I think I see about 30-50 in there, hard to tell with all the plants but I definitely see a little more than 10 at one time and I know there are more in there. They're getting big too though!


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## lilnaugrim

I keep forgetting to update this.

So Sam had originally moved his nest out from under the cup and to the VERY back of the tank :roll: I guess he felt safer back there. I believe he ate most of them and then I saw a few of them hatch later but he ate those too. This was his very first time breeding so I expected something like that to happen and so this was used more as a test run more than anything. I kind of feel bad saying that but I had an intense feeling that he would be an egg/fry eater at first since all my breeders have been that way.

I believe I'm going to switch Jag out of the 2.5 and put Sam in there to allow him to actually keep the eggs this time. Also, I forgot to use a nightlight for him so that may have contributed to his egg eating. I'll remember that next time.

I'm just overly excited that he actually bred for me since that's why I bought him! Other than the fact that he's beautiful too lol. He's also very fat right now still from his feeding of live brine shrimp yesterday lol. So is Rowan though, and she's full of eggs again! She's has the quickest regeneration of eggs I've ever seen in a fish before!! She's a real champ at fishy sex! lol


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## Sadist

Little Red is getting so big!


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## minikin

Aww sorry Sam ate the eggs but hopefully it will go better next time!


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## BlueInkFish

Aww. Sorry about the fry!

 My fish are great at fish sex to XD... They like it A LOT LOL


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## lilnaugrim

Lol, too funny to think about.

Honestly, I'm not super sad at Sam's fry, I'm just overjoyed that he actually bred for me which means that likely he'll do it again! And under better circumstances :-D

I'm thinking about fishing out all the fry I can find in the 10 gallon and putting them in the 29 breeder box for growing since they seem to be a little slow, but they're still just under or just about a month I think. They're mostly on track!


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## lilnaugrim

So....I think I left Velvet in too long......and I wasn't paying attention. Seems like he kind of ate some of the fry....like a lot of them >.< I have six good ones that I transferred to the 29 in a breeder box along with another baby guppy I found, this one from my Black Snakeskin Lyretails which is the ones I wanted to keep ^_^

I also found another Sparkler Gourami fry in the breeder box lol. I have NO IDEA how he got in there....guess he just slipped through but holy cow! Seems like he's only a few days old.

So...I'd been conditioning Rowan and Sam again to see if I could get them to breed again. She was so fat and full of eggs. I'd transferred Sam to the 10 gallon after getting the fry and Velvet out. He was happy making his bubblenest and I was flaring Rowan to him and she jumped out and completely destroyed Sam. I feel absolutely terrible!!!! He's absolutely fine but he's missing like 70% of his fins now, she really did a number to him! No clue why she suddenly turned aggressive after being bred four times! I still feel so bad though. He wiggles and swims up to beg for food and is still in high spirits for a fish who practically doesn't have fins!


I just couldn't believe it when I saw him like this. She immediately went into time out OUTSIDE of the tank.


I also transferred Red into her own 1 gallon, I think it's a girl but I haven't a clue yet. But she's got the hump whereas Orange (who really turned red now!) has better form now so he'll stay in the 29 where the water quality will be better. I'll take water from the 20 above to do water changes on Red's 1 gallon though, so it's not like water quality is bad or anything lol.


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## hrutan

Ouch! Poor little buddy! Them girls can be ROUGH!


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## lilnaugrim

Seriously!! I wasn't expecting it from her, she takes little nips here and there usually but never whole CHUNKS of fins. I literally fished out chunks of his fins. I felt so bad for him. But otherwise, he seems healthy! He can move around now lol, he seems to like that XD


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## Tress

Omg! He got MAULED. Must have said the wrong thing lol.


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## minikin

Oww, poor Sam must have really ticked her off. Girl power? Thank God their fins grow back and, well, at least he seems happy! Too bad Velvet ate so many fry too. Sound like he and Rowan were both acting a bit uncharacteristically! I'm glad Red snd Orange are doing well though.


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## BlueInkFish

Oh my! Poor guy, *whispers* "I told you girls play hard to get!" :lol:


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah, poor Sam moves so slowly because of his huge fins which makes him more of a target, whereas Velvet has a better chance of getting away quicker with less of his finnage. I just feel so bad I didn't remove her sooner >.< But yeah, definitely glad their fins grow back!!


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## lilnaugrim

So I have a surprise!!

Red is a girl! And Orange is a boy!
Sorry it's blurry, but you can see the massive ovaries she sported over night practically lol. It was about three days after I moved her to the 1 gallon and overnight the ovaries popped up lol. I was shocked to see that XD



And here's Orange



And the other four babies with the guppy


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## minikin

Wow those ovaries are huge! They're both such cute little things, can't wait to see them all grown up! :-D


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## Bettalovinmomma

Aww! too cute!


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## BlueInkFish

Adorable!


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## lilnaugrim

More pics from my phone this time. It has trouble focusing on Red though so I didn't snap any of her. Here's Orange





And younger babies. I do have 5, 4 bigger ones and one really small one. Plus the guppy


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## BlueInkFish

Cute!! What age are the younger ones at? They don't seem quite small enough to escape that breeder box.


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## minikin

Wow Orange looks really red on your phone camera!


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## lilnaugrim

litelboyblu said:


> Cute!! What age are the younger ones at? They don't seem quite small enough to escape that breeder box.


Nah, they can't escape. I did have a Sparkling Gourami fry slip in and then he slipped right out again >.< But the younger ones are just over a month now. 



minikin said:


> Wow Orange looks really red on your phone camera!


Yeah, Orange IS red now, he colored up and lost the orange and filled in red ^_^


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## BlueInkFish

Okay, I think I need to get myself one of those. Since my spawn always seem to not have much fry, I'll try it out. Too bad I was at Petco today and I know they have some, I was distracted my Girl Scout cookies and the betta's haha :lol:


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## lilnaugrim

lol! Yeah, always have to be distracted by Girl Scout cookies!! Wasn't able to order mine this year! That's okay though, more money towards feeeesh!!
I wouldn't suggest the fry going in any smaller though, as I noted, that Sparkler fry went right on through. I'd been looking for more but I think they were all eaten unfortunately.


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## lilnaugrim

"Orange"
They're now the size of large PetCo babies





And here's "Red"


She's gotten a little spoonheaded....strange since she had good form growing up







Other babies


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## BlueInkFish

Cutie puhtootie!


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## Sadist

Wow, they're getting so big!


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## cousiniguana

So cool to watch them grow!


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## lilnaugrim

I was just seeing if Red would co-habitat with another female baby from PetCo but alas, they were flaring quite a bit through the cup so I wouldn't chance it. I was trying to find ways to consolidate though, oh well.




I find Red's tail very interesting, it's cellophane at the ends but it's almost coming to a point but she doesn't have very good spread unlike her mama




And Rowan for size comparison!


Like mother like daughter!



Other babies



You can't see it in these pictures but they're getting some red on their tail, possible cambodians then



I cleaned the breeder box out after these pictures and they ate some daphnia today!


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## BlueInkFish

Cute!! I love the pictures. Especially the one of Red and Rowan!


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## minikin

Aww I can't believe how tiny Red still is compared to her mama!


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## Sadist

It's amazing how much bigger red is compared to the majority of her siblings!


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## lilnaugrim

Sadist said:


> It's amazing how much bigger red is compared to the majority of her siblings!


.....that's because Red and Orange ARE older than the other ones lol. Red and Orange are just 2.5 months old now and are just behind the appropriate size for their age. The younger babies are a month and a week younger. Same parents, different spawn date.


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## Cori

If you have any with deformities I am willing to take one.


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## Sadist

lilnaugrim said:


> .....that's because Red and Orange ARE older than the other ones lol. Red and Orange are just 2.5 months old now and are just behind the appropriate size for their age. The younger babies are a month and a week younger. Same parents, different spawn date.


Oh, oops! I thought they were the big ones that had to be jarred early!


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## lilnaugrim

lol nope. It's okay though, I understand where the confusion comes in!

No real deformities yet, just some slight spoonheadedness is all. Babies are not old enough to be shipped, nor will I be shipping them out until they are full adults.


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## Poro

oh my I'd love one of these >.< Including if one had that pie bald look like the mommy


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## lilnaugrim

Mommy is no longer piebald, she's pretty much filled in all her red minus the fins. Velvet's fins are almost completely red now. Both first babies Red and Orange are also full red VTs. Newer babies seem to be coming out as Cambodians as I predicted.

These pictures were from a few nights ago when I moved things around and split up the breeder box for Red and Orange. I love baby flares!


Orange (boy) is on the left and Red (girl) is on the right










And form today. Look who made his first bubble nest!!!


That face lol


And younger babies fat on grindal worms


Somehow I lost one so I only have three now....idk how that happened


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## Sadist

Wow, made a nest already!

I like the newer ones, too!


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## BlueInkFish

Cuttttte!!!


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## minikin

Aww I love his baby bubble nest!


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## kevinap2

Never too early to impress the ladies next door.


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## lilnaugrim

Orange and Red are getting big! Orange's tail is getting a really nice spike to it, I hope he keeps it ^_^

He's been making bubblenests like crazy too, I wish I had a picture of the largest one he had; nearly covered the entire side of his part and was a good half inch thick if not a little more.
Orange is the boy on the left if anyone forgot, Red is the girl on the right








He looks a lot like daddy ^_^


And we're at the point where the little ones are going to grow quickly!


They all seem to be getting butterfly effects, can't wait to see how these ones turn out!


This is the largest and look at that! Marbled! Only part of her anal fin and dorsal have the red on it :-D


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## rubyfire

Orange has such kawii eyes lol they are getting big.


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## lilnaugrim

So I took Orange out and put him in the actual 29 and gave Red the entire breeder box. My Angel is no longer in there so there's no one to eat him/pick on him except the Sparkler Gouramis. He learned quickly that he shouldn't mess with them and just stays around Red's box primarily. He doesn't even bother the younger babies across the tanks. He did get beat up a little by the Sparklers but he left them along after a bit and is already healing lol





And Red trying to get at the detritus worms lol



And the younger three plus one guppy





Sorry that the pics are lacking, I'll break out the real camera soon instead of using my phone.


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## Sadist

Wow, I'm glad they're doing so well!


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## lilnaugrim

So O was getting beat up by the Sparklers more than I thought he would. He's apparently a wuss when it comes down to it. So I did some Betta shuffling and added him to the 20 Gal with the guppies. He flares at them but doesn't harm them and they don't hurt him ^_^



O and Daddy!



I was attempting to get them to flare at each other, but they wouldn't lol Or they would for like half a second and then go about their business :roll:



Here's a nice picture!


The guppy wondering who his new roomie is





Sorry, no other pics of Red or the other babies in this post! I was too busy lol. Perhaps for Thursday/Friday when I'm free again and home.


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## Sadist

Wow, he's starting to look like his daddy!


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah he does. He's only missing the butterfly, but Velvet is coloring up with red anyway. Rowan is as well but at a slower rate

O flaring at his neighbor, Sam



O and his neighbor Sam who another breeder, I was attempting him with Rowan but she beat him up. He's been healing up very well though!





And this is why I haven't been able to get good pics of Red....SO MUCH ALGAE lol


She's doing well though, a little fatty for sure


Looks like a red goldfish here lol


And the baby babies are coloring up with red, they all have the butterfly pattern but I don't think it will last unfortunately


Interrupting Guppy


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## lilnaugrim

Orange


Sam and Orange, O is getting so big!


I got tired of looking at the babies in the 29 so I filled up my 2.5, added the heater, an airstone, and some decor to it and acclimated the babies to it. Took the opportunity to take some pics of them.




They're getting some red on their backs too




And into the tank they went


Exploring


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## lilnaugrim

Moar pics!

They settled in nicely!





Red



And Orange


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## lilnaugrim

These little buggers are hard to take photos of!! They zip everywhere >.<


I love this baby, pretty sure it's female, ovaries starting to grow. Primarily Cambodian with some red blotches on her back, I may keep her if she shows a good butterfly pattern.




Big girl with Splits on the right. Splits named for the split pattern making him almost look like a DT because of it, but he's a regular VT ^_^


Sorry for not focusing, my phone doesn't like to do that.


Splits again












All three in this pic, though it's hard to see


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## lilnaugrim

Would anyone like to buy Orange? He's still somewhat small but he's a fiesty guy for sure. He's solid red VT. He does still have a few rips in his tail but he's healing very quickly. He needs some TLC that I can't provide at this very moment, frequent water changes will help him grow up! He'll be $12 in total which includes shipping (2 dollar adoption fee and 10 in shipping & handling) I can ship almost any day soon and to any Continental USA.





Red is up as well, I don't have any new pics of her yet. She's pretty fat with both eggs and just all around being fat. She plays well with others, she's slightly spoonheaded; no good for breeding. Again, she's still small. They've grown up separately so please don't think about trying them in the same tank unless it's divided, they WILL kill each other. Again, $12 in total.

If you want to buy both of them then $13 will cover both in the same box.

This is FIRST COME FIRST SERVE.


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## Sadist

Did you post in the selling section, too? I don't have room for more bettas right now or I'd nap them both. Good luck!


----------

