# How do you feel about betta's feelings?



## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm wondering if anyone feels the same way I do: Bettas are not just going on simple reactions to surroundings, but really are capable of following their own mind/heart, & having feelings such as happiness, joy, contentment, etc.

I think they have a "protective" nature & not exactly an agressive one. After all, they were not bred to kill but just to have endurance to fight.

They are indeviduals as much as humans are, even though they are quite different than us.

They feel their surroundings & even though they don't have as complex a MIND as us, they have a soul & heart & can understand life in a deep way.

Does anyone agree?


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## BettaNamedHerbert (Nov 23, 2014)

For sure! My bettas in community tanks really love having other fish around. And they'll play with a ping pong ball in the water. Also, I've noticed that when I'm home from school and in my room, they'll swim up to the glass and show off, knowing I'll give them some worms or other treats.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

My take is every living breathing thing has a soul we are just different and express it differently and also pets dont have to think about surviving so they love interacting with us


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm glad you guys noticed how bettas are! What you guys said is just how I feel!


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> I'm glad you guys noticed how bettas are! What you guys said is just how I feel!


Mhm you know there are some people be like omg fish are so boring! Um well my betta isnt boring at all thats for sure he is aware and alert when he sees me


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Mhm you know there are some people be like omg fish are so boring! Um well my betta isnt boring at all thats for sure he is aware and alert when he sees me


I know! They love their people & can be very entertaining when healthy!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I personally don't agree with what you've stated in the OP about bettas being protective and not aggressive.

I keep wild bettas who are not even in the group of species used for fighting, and they will certainly cause harm to each other if the mood strikes them. 

I had a breeding pair living together where they had produced a number of successful spawns and were sharing a tank with their fry. One day I came and found the male basically dead after having been viciously attacked by his female. He was never overly aggressive to her, which I think was actually his downfall. The only reason she does not attack her two adults sons is because they inherited her aggressiveness and keep her in line. 

I've had a group of siblings decide they suddenly didn't like one of their number and I came in to find that fish literally torn apart. 

I've also witnessed older juveniles waiting for the male to leave his nest of fry unattended before they will go in and completely massacre any fry they can catch. 

Surely if bettas were capable of emotion beyond basic instincts, they wouldn't so willingly maim or murder their breeding partners, family members, or offspring? I mean, if a betta was capable of feeling sadness, than wouldn't it show some signs of grief for the loss of one of its number? Based on their reaction to their dead, elephants seem capable of expressing grief. My bettas seem more intent on cannibalising their dead than they do expressing sadness at their passing. 


One thing I have found whilst keeping these fish over the past few years is that they are extremely difficult to predict. What can be peaceful, long-term cohabitation one day, can turn to murder the next. 

Also, while they are very personable fish, so are dozens of other fish in this hobby. My goldfish for example, wedge themselves in whatever corner of the tank is closest to me when I am working downstairs. The reason being, they have learned my presence means the chance of food. IMO, this is probably the main driving force behind why fish interact with us. It does not take long at all for my wild-caught bettas to become 'tame' once they start to realise that when I am around, they get fed. The change in their behaviour is quite dramatic, but I don't think it's because they love me. It's just because I am associated with an important resource - food. 

I know my opinion differs from others on the thread, but sometimes I feel there is a danger in anthropomorphism. For example, a sick betta becomes 'sad' or 'depressed', while a betta by itself that may be perfectly content with a solitary life, is labelled as 'lonely', while a male and female that somehow manage not to kill each other are described as 'loving' each other, by an owner projecting human emotions onto their fish. In these circumstances this sort of thinking could lead to dire consequences. 

I think it's important to maintain a balanced perspective on the issue. At the moment, they can't even determine with 100% certainty whether fish feel pain and to what extent. I think it will be a while before we can conclusively state that fish are capable of feeling higher emotions associated with organisms possessing some sort of consciousness/self-awareness.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I personally don't agree with what you've stated in the OP about bettas being protective and not aggressive.
> 
> I keep wild bettas who are not even in the group of species used for fighting, and they will certainly cause harm to each other if the mood strikes them.
> 
> ...


It's OK that you have that oppinion, but I don't agree . . . my one betta is more connected to my friend than to me; & my friend has NEVER fed him!

They understand that we are more than food dispensers.

I make a point not to anthropomorphise my fish too; I notice that a sick fish can possibly be happy if not in pain, a healthy fish can still get bored & depressed, 
& although SOME bettas like community tanks some are OK alone. However I find most, even the solitary types, like human interaction.

I agree though, anthropomorphism isn't good because of things like "I don't mind 60 degree temperature, so my fish wouldn't either!" but I don't see what bad can come of saying that fish have personalities like humans. Even if that wasn't true, why would it be dangerous?

Also, I think the fact that so many people have their fish fin-biting when they aren't around enough is proof that fish like their humans for companionship!

I had many, many fish, at many times, who got depressed when I wasn't spending much time with them, even though I was still changing the water, feeding them daily, etc. then when I spent more quality time w/ them, they perked up! They really do love their owners!

Of corse they love food too, and know humans will give them food, and might like us for that reason, but they like us for more than that reason too.

Another example that fish like us:
One of my fish was very stressed after a water change, I think I may have gotten the temp wrong or something, & he wasn't moving. I put my hand on the tank, (not feeding him, just being w/ him) and he perked up. He loves me.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I actually agree with LittleBettaFish. While I think that bettas have different personalities, I do not think they have feelings or feel pain. Their brains are not as complex as ours. 

I do think that how a fish interacts with you is if you provide them with food. For example my fish seem more active around me, my father (when he visits), and my best friend but ignore everyone else. This is because me, my father and my best friend are the only people that have ever fed my fish. So I do think it is connected with food.

as I said before, bettas don't have the same complex brains as we do. We also must keep in mind that emotions - like sadness and joy - are terms we has humans made up to explain our own emotions. I agree that if bettas had the same emotional complexity that we do that they would not attack members of their family or their fry or breeding partners like the case LittleBettaFish explained above. 

I think in general, we tend to romanticize bettas too much to the point we think that they have the same emotional intelligence as humans (which isn't the case). Their lives are much similar in that they aren't looking to be happy but instead just want their basic needs met. Meaning cleaning water, quality food, and an environment. While bettas are curious fish and I do believe the recognize people as "food suppliers", i do not think that can feel emotions like we do.


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## Reccka (Jul 20, 2014)

+1 to 99% of that. Minus feeling pain. Going to have to disagree with that one. I'm not saying emotional pain or anything, but physical pain. Of course, that is an endless debate on both sides. It personally just makes more sense to me since they seem to react to things that would be regarded as "painful".


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> I actually agree with LittleBettaFish. While I think that bettas have different personalities, I do not think they have feelings or feel pain. Their brains are not as complex as ours.
> 
> They don't have as complex brains, true. But they have other things that we don't (like a lateral line) so that might make up for not having complex brains.
> 
> ...


They do want their basic needs met, but they also want their emotional needs met; you can be very religious about care of bettas; why do you think they should have such extensive care if they can't feel pain or really think? Maybe it's because it's your hobby & you just want to be successful? You want your bettas' colors to stand out? Sorry, but I can't really see wanting to care for a pet so much if they aren't going to thank you for it! I think you take good care of your betta and they love you for it!


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Reccka said:


> +1 to 99% of that. Minus feeling pain. Going to have to disagree with that one. I'm not saying emotional pain or anything, but physical pain. Of course, that is an endless debate on both sides. It personally just makes more sense to me since they seem to react to things that would be regarded as "painful".


Really, it is the same thing, emotional health & physical health. You can get sick because you're stressed, and stressed because you're sick.

A feeling is often VERY strong & can cause actual things to happen to your body.

One of the most painful things in life for some beings is not having someone care for you!


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ok so leys say this a neglected betta with a tiny little bowl no space to swim at all very cold and lathargic, water is filthy and gross and he has not been fed ever, 

Do you think betta is like nah i dont care if i feel like i am about to die and hungry and cold? They may not speak but they care


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Ok so leys say this a neglected betta with a tiny little bowl no space to swim at all very cold and lathargic, water is filthy and gross and he has not been fed ever,
> 
> Do you think betta is like nah i dont care if i feel like i am about to die and hungry and cold? They may not speak but they care


Yes, every living being cares. Whether they can express it or not.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

To me, the above situation is just basic survival instinct. The conditions are causing stress/potential damage to the health of the fish, and if the fish is to survive, it's going to have to get out.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> Yes, every living being cares. Whether they can express it or not.


So they may not express much emotions like us they are happy in their clean warm enviroment they do more stuff like they want to breed or protect its territory thats what they ate suppose to do in the wild anyways


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> To me, the above situation is just basic survival instinct. The conditions are causing stress/potential damage to the health of the fish, and if the fish is to survive, it's going to have to get out.


They escape by jumping lol my betta hates the tiny water changing cup lol
But then it gets to be put back in the filthy bowl


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> To me, the above situation is just basic survival instinct. The conditions are causing stress/potential damage to the health of the fish, and if the fish is to survive, it's going to have to get out.



Sometimes, people don't know how to get down to the level of someone smaller. If we were looking down at humans from high enough, you might not see more than just basic "survival instinct" in us either! But, since we know what's going on in our own heads we know we're more than that. We know that we care.

Bettas aren't human, they're different from us, but they DO think & feel.

Heck, people used to think even DOGS were non-intelligent! Betta fish, although they have un-complex brains, still can feel like dogs can.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> Sometimes, people don't know how to get down to the level of someone smaller. If we were looking down at humans from high enough, you might not see more than just basic "survival instinct" in us either! But, since we know what's going on in our own heads we know we're more than that. We know that we care.
> 
> Bettas aren't human, they're different from us, but they DO think & feel.
> 
> Heck, people used to think even DOGS were non-intelligent! Betta fish, although they have un-complex brains, still can feel like dogs can.


I sometimes wonder what my betta thinks in his head of his lol when he makes his bubble nest his concetration is so well lol or when he sees a foe he rushes to the tank like crazy!


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

+1 LBF
Its pretty arrogant to assume every animal thinks like and has the same feelings as humans. 
Most (infact all) of a fish's actions are survival based, since they are solitary animals they dont have any need for "bonding" but heaps of need for recognizing patterns and food sources. Thats why even if you arent dropping food into the tank, the fish will still come up to see you. Because its taught itself that food only comes when we come to the tank, so they are always optimistic when they see us, hoping youll drop some food as you wander past


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

trilobite said:


> +1 LBF
> Its pretty arrogant to assume every animal thinks like and has the same feelings as humans.
> Most (infact all) of a fish's actions are survival based, since they are solitary animals they dont have any need for "bonding" but heaps of need for recognizing patterns and food sources. Thats why even if you arent dropping food into the tank, the fish will still come up to see you. Because its taught itself that food only comes when we come to the tank, so they are always optimistic when they see us, hoping youll drop some food as you wander past


I agree with all of this.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

trilobite said:


> +1 LBF
> Its pretty arrogant to assume every animal thinks like and has the same feelings as humans.
> Most (infact all) of a fish's actions are survival based, since they are solitary animals they dont have any need for "bonding" but heaps of need for recognizing patterns and food sources. Thats why even if you arent dropping food into the tank, the fish will still come up to see you. Because its taught itself that food only comes when we come to the tank, so they are always optimistic when they see us, hoping youll drop some food as you wander past


You could say that about humans too, that we are programmed for only survival. But really, if you watch any wild animal with an open mind (at least I find this to be true) they bond to nature. They bond to people in captivity. In the wild, they bond to life I think.

Why do you even think that bettas only care about food? Plus, how do we know? If we aren't a fish, it's better to assume fish have feelings rather than that they don't, even if we don't know.

Think about it; if we assumed fish DIDN'T have feelings then we might abuse them! If we assumed they did & we respected them, what's the worst that could come of it?

Also, I know bettas don't have feelings JUST like humans, but it's really arrogant to assume that WE have special minds that animals don't. I think fish don't have as complex minds, but they can feel. They can think. They know how to be happy and sad even if they don't have words for those feelings.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

trilobite said:


> since they are solitary animals they dont have any need for "bonding" but heaps of need for recognizing patterns and food sources.


Bettas aren't solitary animals actually. They weren't even bred to kill each other.

The reason people think they "fight to the death" is because if they are put together in TOO SMALL a tank they usually kill each other, because the submissive one can't swim away! But they're bred to protect themselves, not kill for no reason.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I wouldn't say the splendens complex of fish is sociable. I agree wild species (splendens, stiktos, imbellis, smaragdina, mahachaiensis, and siamorientalis) can live in pairs or sometimes groups, and are generally less aggressive than their domesticated counterparts. 

However, this group of fish is still what I would consider semi-aggressive. They will often display aggressive behaviour towards conspecifics, and depending on the individual this can very easily escalate to physical harm/death. 

There's little to no bond between my breeding pairs outside of them spawning and producing fry. I have witnessed no familial attachments between my fish once the fry become free-swimming. Their parents ignore them while they are young, and demonstrate aggression towards them when they are older. 

It's alright to have an opinion that bettas are capable of feeling and expressing emotions, but the way you put it, makes it sound more like an already proven fact.


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## Nova betta (Dec 5, 2014)

yea i can get why betta fish wouldn't fee a loss for another but i think they can feel physical pain.


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I believe if fish did not feel pain they would not show in their behaviour that they are unwell when they are injured or sick. 

I also believe that fish feel positive feelings and negative feelings, the "happy dance" they do for us when they see us and are expecting to get food, flaring when they think their territory is being invaded.

To say that they understand life in a deep way though, in my opinion is humanizing them. I don't even think this about my dogs and feel they are much more evolved than fish.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

While I believe a lot of LBF's points I also can see some of HeartBettas' points as well. I feel like bettas do have feelings, just, not as complex as we do, I think they can feel happy or sick just not in the same capacity, though I do agree that a lot of what they do is survival based, I also think that part of it could be that they just like to see us. My boys love to come up and flirt with my friends who have never fed them. I'm the only one who feeds my boys. (I like it that way so I know that they're getting the proper amount of food each day) I believe that each betta has his or her own personality but at the same time I realize their brain isn't as complex as ours.


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

BettaStarter24 said:


> While I believe a lot of LBF's points I also can see some of HeartBettas' points as well. I feel like bettas do have feelings, just, not as complex as we do, I think they can feel happy or sick just not in the same capacity, though I do agree that a lot of what they do is survival based, I also think that part of it could be that they just like to see us. My boys love to come up and flirt with my friends who have never fed them. I'm the only one who feeds my boys. (I like it that way so I know that they're getting the proper amount of food each day) I believe that each betta has his or her own personality but at the same time I realize their brain isn't as complex as ours.


My feelings exactly.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> Bettas aren't human, they're different from us, but they DO think & feel.


I definitely agree. ^

Sure Bettas wouldn't be on the same level as humans as far as feelings,emotions & intelligence goes,but to say they have none at all would be I think very wrong to assume.

We are all living,breathing animals,and I believe all feel & think on some degree for sure.I don't believe any animal could have zero feelings & thoughts.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> I wouldn't say the splendens complex of fish is sociable. I agree wild species (splendens, stiktos, imbellis, smaragdina, mahachaiensis, and siamorientalis) can live in pairs or sometimes groups, and are generally less aggressive than their domesticated counterparts.
> 
> However, this group of fish is still what I would consider semi-aggressive. They will often display aggressive behaviour towards conspecifics, and depending on the individual this can very easily escalate to physical harm/death.
> 
> ...



I think it is an already proven fact, just because they are living and breathing and I've noticed that even the their face expression changes from day to day!
Plus, if they couldn't feel how could they know when the water was too cold or anything? How could they know to eat?

If they couldn't feel or "enjoy" life, why would they even care to live? Why wouldn't they just starve themselves instead of eating to make themselves live a long time if they couldn't enjoy living a long time?

I agree with what Ilovebettasbk11 said: do you think a betta who is dying would just be like "oh i don't care that I'm going to die"

If they didn't feel pain & didn't know that they were hungry (which is a kind of pain) how would they know to eat?

If they didn't care that they were alive, why would they even try to keep themselves alive by eating etc.?

I think they must care about life & enjoy it: because if you have a neglected betta they get sick. If you have a healthy betta they act colorful & vibrent!

So they must know when they are well-taken care of.

Also, I have a betta that ALWAYS builds his bubble nest on the side of the tank that I'm on. (I sit by the tank a lot) When I tried sitting on the other side, he started building his bubble nest where I was!

So obviously that's not a "give me food" thing, because when bettas breed they expect their mate to breed with them, not give them food!


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Nova betta said:


> yea i can get why betta fish wouldn't fee a loss for another but i think they can feel physical pain.


They maybe don't care about other bettas, but they do care about their humans! My one betta (even though he was being fed & cared for very well by a fish sitter) got so depressed when I went on vacation that he bit his tail to shreds! :shock:

They do pick & choose their humans! My bettas like some of my friends & not others. But NONE of my friends have fed my bettas!


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Netti said:


> I believe if fish did not feel pain they would not show in their behaviour that they are unwell when they are injured or sick.
> 
> I also believe that fish feel positive feelings and negative feelings, the "happy dance" they do for us when they see us and are expecting to get food, flaring when they think their territory is being invaded.
> 
> To say that they understand life in a deep way though, in my opinion is humanizing them. I don't even think this about my dogs and feel they are much more evolved than fish.


I agree, except the deep thing. If I just LOOK into a dog's eyes I can tell, they have wisdom. & although fish are a little less communicative (dogs certainly can get across to me with body language, fish are harder to read) I do think they "get" and "care about" things in their life; like how their tank is arranged! My fish likes different things in his tank.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

BettaStarter24 said:


> While I believe a lot of LBF's points I also can see some of HeartBettas' points as well. I feel like bettas do have feelings, just, not as complex as we do, I think they can feel happy or sick just not in the same capacity, though I do agree that a lot of what they do is survival based, I also think that part of it could be that they just like to see us. My boys love to come up and flirt with my friends who have never fed them. I'm the only one who feeds my boys. (I like it that way so I know that they're getting the proper amount of food each day) I believe that each betta has his or her own personality but at the same time I realize their brain isn't as complex as ours.


I can see that; they don't act as complex as us, but I think if we were looking at ourselves from above we would think the same thing about ourselves.

I think it's hard to tell unless you are a betta, so I think it's better to assume they do feel rather than they don't.

I think they can be very personable fish, that they can understand a lot of what we do but not in such a complex way.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Polkadot said:


> I definitely agree. ^
> 
> Sure Bettas wouldn't be on the same level as humans as far as feelings,emotions & intelligence goes,but to say they have none at all would be I think very wrong to assume.
> 
> We are all living,breathing animals,and I believe all feel & think on some degree for sure.I don't believe any animal could have zero feelings & thoughts.


+1 to most of that. But what I meant was that they were different, but I don't know if they are less complex. Part of me thinks they are less complex, part of me thinks they can understand a lot!


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

LittleBettaFish said:


> It's alright to have an opinion that bettas are capable of feeling and expressing emotions, but the way you put it, makes it sound more like an already proven fact.





Heartbettas said:


> I think it is an already proven fact, just because they are living and breathing and I've noticed that even the their face expression changes from day to day!


The title of this topic is How do you feel about betta's feelings, not the proven facts about betta's feelings. 

I can feel that my fish like to sing. In Latin. Gregorian Chant for the most part as their slightly lesser intelligence doesn't allow them to comprehend more complex melodies. That is feeling, and an opinion. 

Proven facts usually require some documentation by the person making that statement proving that fact. If you think it already is a proven fact please provide some documentation. Having an opinion & feeling is fine, we all do it to some extent. Calling it a fact is going to have it held to a higher standard.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Tolak said:


> The title of this topic is How do you feel about betta's feelings, not the proven facts about betta's feelings.
> 
> I can feel that my fish like to sing. In Latin. Gregorian Chant for the most part as their slightly lesser intelligence doesn't allow them to comprehend more complex melodies. That is feeling, and an opinion.
> 
> Proven facts usually require some documentation by the person making that statement proving that fact. If you think it already is a proven fact please provide some documentation. Having an opinion & feeling is fine, we all do it to some extent. Calling it a fact is going to have it held to a higher standard.


I meant that I've been noticing bettas lovingness & feelings for the past 3 years, & I don't think I could be mistaken because it seems so obvious. I've had many, many years of experience with animals so I think I know what I'm talking about. Maybe "proven" isn't the right word, but I do think it is a fact that they can feel. plus, really facts & thoughts are really one thing: beliefs.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

And you're stating opinion, not fact. Facts and thoughts are two separate things; facts can be proven, or disproven, thoughts can not. I can think my fish like gregorian chant better due to their activity when I play power chords, simple I V progressions & such, but are less active during chromatic type of leads. That thought certainly doesn't make it a fact. It's merely my opinion from observation.

You can think it is a fact, but you can not prove it is a fact, so it is just a thought or opinion. No problem with having that belief, doesn't pass muster as a fact. 

You can count all the years experience with animals that you'd like, what you've done in those years is more important. One person can have a single tank for 30 years, so they have 30 years experience. Another can run a 50 tank fishroom breeding for profit for 10 years, they only have 10 years experience. Experience is something you can't quantify with numbers.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Heartbettas said:


> plus, really facts & thoughts are really one thing: beliefs.


Facts and beliefs are complete opposites. I might believe that dogs dont exist at all, but no matter how hard I believe it, the fact is that dogs exist, we can prove they do and even though I wont believe they exist it makes absolutely no difference to the fact that they actually do
Facts disprove beliefs but beliefs cant disprove facts.




> I think it is an already proven fact, just because they are living and breathing and I've noticed that even the their face expression changes from day to day!
> Plus, if they couldn't feel how could they know when the water was too cold or anything? How could they know to eat?
> 
> If they couldn't feel or "enjoy" life, why would they even care to live? Why wouldn't they just starve themselves instead of eating to make themselves live a long time if they couldn't enjoy living a long time?
> ...


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Facts and Believes are two very different ideas. For example, I can believe I can bend down and touch my toes without bending my knees but the facts are that my hamstrings are not flexible enough for me to do that. 

I agree with what trilobite said completely.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Bettas do not feel happiness, joy, sadness, love or any other human emotion. People can pretend to believe that. But by doing so they are only anthropomorphizing animals. Which is a very selfish human thing to do, and typical of many humans.
Instead of letting animals be animals, some people have to push their own feeling onto animals and insist they feel the same things humans do. It does animals no good.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

TerriGtoo said:


> Bettas do not feel happiness, joy, sadness, love or any other human emotion. People can pretend to believe that. But by doing so they are only anthropomorphizing animals. Which is a very selfish human thing to do, and typical of many humans.
> Instead of letting animals be animals, some people have to push their own feeling onto animals and insist they feel the same things humans do. It does animals no good.


It certainly does animals worse to assume they have no feelings; then people might mistreat them, because they think the animal won't know the difference!

You can tell me that I'm anthropomorphizing all you want, but I'm not. I'm just noticing from experience with these fish that they are all different. They are actuall beings, not toys or objects, so I think obviously they feel.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> It certainly does animals worse to assume they have no feelings; then people might mistreat them, because they think the animal won't know the difference!
> 
> You can tell me that I'm anthropomorphizing all you want, but I'm not. I'm just noticing from experience with these fish that they are all different. They are actuall beings, not toys or objects, so I think obviously they feel.


I agree with you, you cant tell me a living breathing animal cant feel they do but they express it different then us 

It sickens my omg its just a fish it has no feelings so who cares if it dies! It may be selfish to think my betta is happy but hey atleast he has a good life and is healthy thats all that matters


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

i dont need a betta fish to kiss or hug me or say thank you mom, to know my betta is happy, him swimming in his tank being all cute , being alert, flaring at me and making bubble nests are enough for me


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Tolak said:


> And you're stating opinion, not fact. Facts and thoughts are two separate things; facts can be proven, or disproven, thoughts can not. I can think my fish like gregorian chant better due to their activity when I play power chords, simple I V progressions & such, but are less active during chromatic type of leads. That thought certainly doesn't make it a fact. It's merely my opinion from observation.
> 
> You can think it is a fact, but you can not prove it is a fact, so it is just a thought or opinion. No problem with having that belief, doesn't pass muster as a fact.





trilobite said:


> Facts and beliefs are complete opposites. I might believe that dogs dont exist at all, but no matter how hard I believe it, the fact is that dogs exist, we can prove they do and even though I wont believe they exist it makes absolutely no difference to the fact that they actually do
> Facts disprove beliefs but beliefs cant disprove facts.





VivianKJean said:


> Facts and Believes are two very different ideas. For example, I can believe I can bend down and touch my toes without bending my knees but the facts are that my hamstrings are not flexible enough for me to do that.


I think by that they're the same thing I meant that both are never sturdy, if they can be changed or "disproven". They are both just things that someone noticed, & they believe it's true. 
The line between the two can be a fine line, for instance:
People often think that the brain has intelligence, the heart does not. However, there have been fairly recent studies that show that the heart has a bigger field (I'm bad with scientific things, sorry for not having any idea what it's called) of energy or something than the brain. Many people disagree and think that it's not true that the heart has whatever qualities the new study shows it has, but it HAS been "proven". Does that make it a fact or an opinion?

My point is that, if you look from the biggest picture, all of this controversy just comes from our big minds that are always thinking up theories for things, & maybe there is no true or untrue theories, but maybe what you think is true for YOU but not for others. 

Docter Emoto did an experiment with water, finding that the water in your body can be changed by what you say to it or what you expose it to. So, if this is true then if you tell yourself, "bettas can not feel things" or "bettas are not intelligent" then the next time you look at a betta you will think they act non-intelligent! I got a fish & had no idea whether he was intelligent or not, but he proved himself to me. So HE, the actual fish, changed the water in my body. I did not come at him with a belief that he wasn't intelligent.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> I agree with you, you cant tell me a living breathing animal cant feel they do but they express it different then us
> 
> It sickens my omg its just a fish it has no feelings so who cares if it dies! It may be selfish to think my betta is happy but hey atleast he has a good life and is healthy thats all that matters





Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> i dont need a betta fish to kiss or hug me or say thank you mom, to know my betta is happy, him swimming in his tank being all cute , being alert, flaring at me and making bubble nests are enough for me


I've always been upset when people say animals don't have feelings. I agree that they might have different feelings & act different, but they can feel.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> I've always been upset when people say animals don't have feelings. I agree that they might have different feelings & act different, but they can feel.


Yes they do feel i wonder why they scream abuse everytime they see a betta in a tiny cup neglected after all it has no feelings huh so why shoukd they care right?


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

TerriGtoo said:


> Bettas do not feel happiness, joy, sadness, love or any other human emotion. People can pretend to believe that. But by doing so they are only anthropomorphizing animals. Which is a very selfish human thing to do, and typical of many humans.
> Instead of letting animals be animals, some people have to push their own feeling onto animals and insist they feel the same things humans do. It does animals no good.


This is a major reason why animal shelters are filled with dogs. Dogs do not think, act or feel the same as humans. Too many people think they do, and have a horrible time training them, with the dog being dropped off or let loose, rather than the owner getting it through their thick skull that animals don't think, feel, or perceive the world the same as humans. 

Dogs function at a higher level than fish, much has been written and studied about dogs' thought processes. Dogs don't posses these attributes you're saying fish have, and if fish did they'd be a higher functioning animal than dogs. 



Heartbettas said:


> I'm bad with scientific things


Agreed.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

But don't feel bad, apparently he is as well.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tolak said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
> 
> But don't feel bad, apparently he is as well.


Be strong op dont let others put you down science by the way makes me very mad 

People use science on everything just to put others down there is no proof that they do feel but there is no prood that thry dont feel either unless you are a fish yourself tou got no oriof that they dont feel


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

You can believe a fish doesn't operate emotionally on the same level as a human, but still be aware that they are capable of suffering through poor care. 

I don't treat my bettas poorly, but I don't believe they possess a level of intelligence/self-awareness anywhere near that of humans. I can still love my fish, even if they don't love me back.

Also Ilovebettasbk11, without science we would still be living back in the dark ages.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Be strong op dont let others put you down science by the way makes me very mad
> 
> People use science on everything just to put others down there is no proof that they do feel but there is no prood that thry dont feel either unless you are a fish yourself tou got no oriof that they dont feel


Science is what leads to the truth about how our world works. Without it we could still assume the earth is flat with the sun rotating around it. Science has developed the computer you are using to communicate in this topic, if science makes you that mad unplug it & sell it.

Sure, fish feel, if you'd like to call it that, but not on the level of humans. It's much more basic, and instinctively driven. There's things humans do that are instinctively driven as well.


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

I think the thing we also need to remember is... Science is still learning. We have only studied the tip of the iceberg when it comes to brains. Since we do not yet have a way to view the world as an animal does, or to truly know how much they can feel and understand, I believe it is a very close minded statement to deny the possibility until science has matured enough to give 100% proof.

As an example, just recently the discovery of a type of nerves in the brain that basically allow for rapid communication across larger brains, and are only found in humans, most of the great apes, some elephants, whales and dolphins (& related species). They're thought to be linked to regulating and communication to coherent thinking as they're only found in most emotional regulatory and response centers in human brains. So scientists figure they're tied to the concept of 'intelligence'. 

Science is still making new discoveries that discredit old "facts". So no fact is set in stone. It's still learning and evolving.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tress said:


> I think the thing we also need to remember is... Science is still learning. We have only studied the tip of the iceberg when it comes to brains. Since we do not yet have a way to view the world as an animal does, or to truly know how much they can feel and understand, I believe it is a very close minded statement to deny the possibility until science has matured enough to give 100% proof.
> 
> As an example, just recently the discovery of a type of nerves in the brain that basically allow for rapid communication across larger brains, and are only found in humans, most of the great apes, some elephants, whales and dolphins (& related species). They're thought to be linked to regulating and communication to coherent thinking as they're only found in most emotional regulatory and response centers in human brains. So scientists figure they're tied to the concept of 'intelligence'.
> 
> Science is still making new discoveries that discredit old "facts". So no fact is set in stone. It's still learning and evolving.


Bingo you need to be that animal and see what its like otherwise there is no proof that they feel or not just belief


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Tress said:


> Science is still making new discoveries that discredit old "facts". So no fact is set in stone. It's still learning and evolving.


Yes it is, and most often it builds off of what has been scientifically proven (or yet to be disproven) to discredit an individual "fact".


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Be strong op dont let others put you down science by the way makes me very mad


Says the person on their computer...Without science your fish would be dead from ammonia by now, infact you wouldnt have any bettas because you wouldnt have been able to get to thailand in the first place



> I think by that they're the same thing I meant that both are never sturdy, if they can be changed or "disproven". They are both just things that someone noticed, & they believe it's true.
> The line between the two can be a fine line, for instance


Its more like a giant chasm than a fine line
Fact isnt something _believed _to be true, its something _known_ to be true. If you "know" something to be true and have no proof, then its just a belief.
Belief has no evidence, fact has heaps of evidence. Fact changes with more evidence but belief stays the same regardless of evidence.
Try not to get the two confused, they are pretty much opposites 

I see your concern for mistreating bettas, but it happens on the other side of the coin too. "Ohhh mr betta has built a nest, he must want a girlfriend!" next day, dead bettas. Or "oh I really want my fish to experience mating at least once/I love my betta soooo much that I want a baby from him, hes got such a great personality" The result is 200 unwanted vt mutts that the owner cant get rid of.
Same thing happens with dogs/cats/every animal people anthropomorphise so we end up with hundreds of them in rescues. I wouldnt be surprised if anthropomorphizers are the root cause of 1000s of animal deaths


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

The important thing to remember is no matter what, we are all humans, thinking with human brains and perceiving with humans senses. We're _ALL_ biased towards human means of thinking. Right now there is no means to determine what any animal thinks or feels at any given time. Sure, correlations and body language can give us clues, but it is extremely important to note that humans are (As far as we know) almost unqiue in our ability to extrapolate from data presented, and form conclusions on things we haven't perceived directly or vicariously.

Let's have a bit of a history lesson quick here, Pavlov's dogs. He rang a bell for them before every feeding. Eventually the dogs learned that the bell meant food was coming, so they prepared to eat. That is an extremely simple form of learning (called Classical Conditioning for those interested) that most animals we could consider 'semi-intelligent' can demonstrate, and is extremely important for survival. Next on the list, we have 'Operant Conditioning', which is teaching through reward and punishment - and is directly linked to the former. Strictly speaking, most vertebrate creatures can be trained to do something, which is operant conditioning at work. It doesn't take much brainpower to accociate a reward with something I just did and conclude "I just did something and got a reward. If I do it again, I might get a reward again?"

Where I'm going with all this is just because your bettas 'recognise' you doesn't mean that they've learned to see you as a freind and respect your company. They've realised that you're the bringer of food and it's time to get excited and eat. If they were left to their own feeding devices in the wild and you brought them food every day, they likely wouldn't pay you two hoots and would likely flee until you were gone, then sneak out and start squabbling with each other over the food you left behind. Why? Because they don't need you.

Side note: the brain is basically just a really complex computer chip. It's structurally the same. Single pathways that switch on and off to transmit data from one place to another. There is an important rule in computing is that it's not about how big your chip is, it's how many connections you have and how efficiently it's coded. A big chip can be sloppy and poorly wired and a small chip can be compact and efficient and run much better. The same is very true for brains.

The problem with comparing fish desires with humans is that our 'computer chip' is _*extremely*_ efficient and complex, compared to other chips of a similar size, we have orders of magnitude more connections than some similar sized species. You can have the most genius fish ever, but they're still going to be designed differently, and not have nearly as many connections as us, not to mention having a completely different set of lifetime priorities (outside of make as many copies of us as possible - everybody shares that one). Heck, even our most intelligent competitors; dolphins, elephants, other apes and the like have extremely intense brain-neuron concentrations, and even we can't communicate with them very well at all! (though we are getting better with dolphins, bless their playful socks)

Yes, betta's have feelings of some description. But we might as well be asking each other what a potato thinks of Mona Lisa's eyebrows, because we're just never going to be able to understand just what that potato thinks.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Haha funny very funny how cute science may be good sure fine whatever but i hate it the way people use it on others beliefs


Why do you hate it when used on beliefs? Science is understanding the world and universe we live in and helping us grow, discover and explore everything. Thats an awesome thing, not something to be hated


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

trilobite said:


> Why do you hate it when used on beliefs? Science is understanding the world and universe we live in and helping us grow, discover and explore everything. Thats an awesome thing, not something to be hated


One of 2 reasons.

Option 1) "I hate when people cherry pick science to say "well this is the case here, so it must be true also for this completely unrelated thing" and proceed to berate you with a pile of fallacies and toxic ideals 'justified' by a completely innocuous and usually misrepresented report."

Option 2) "I hate when people use science to prove that I'm wrong, because I hate being wrong."

Option 1 being usually held by someone trying to engage in responsible debate and option 2 usually being held by someone rather insecure and trying to rationalize their thoughts because the concept of adapting them is too foreign to consider, or occasionally it's just the bitterness and resentment emerging when they realize "Gee, I am wrong..." much like the same when 50% of internet arguements end with an insult. No, I'm not pointing fingers or mocking - I'm quite serious. :/ There are people like this in the world. Just look at the Fox Nuwz demographic for a prime example of people who can't stand being told they're wrong. >.>


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

lostkavi said:


> Yes, betta's have feelings of some description. But we might as well be asking each other what a potato thinks of Mona Lisa's eyebrows, because we're just never going to be able to understand just what that potato thinks.


Pretty much sum sit up. Also there's no shame in changing your mind, opinion, or being wrong & learning what is right. I think Thomas Edison said that he knew 100 ways to make a light bulb that doesn't work, but one way to make one that does.

Anyone who says they are never wrong is either lying, or disillusioned. Same goes with changing your mind or opinion. I can tell you the wrong way of doing a multitude of things, and how do I know that? For the most part I screwed up. I've changed my mind on a large variety of things over the years, it's part of the learning process. But for now I've got a bag of potatoes to talk to, might learn something new.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

without science then we would not even be on this website having this discussion. Science is a great thing that advances our world. Science plays a huge part in fish keeping and if you hate science than you hate a major part of fish keeping.


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Right all about facts to you, do you have any beliefs by any chance? I mean strong beliefs i like god or santa clause and what not
> 
> You gonna crush those too? Thats why i hate science understand?


I believe that there will come a time when humans won't be jerks to each other over the internet. :/ Seriously.

Still seriously, there is a difference between holding a belief and acting on it. You can believe in santa all you want, but the minute you start buying parkas and chartering a trip to the poltomic, then it's time to pop that bubble.
You can believe that god exists. As soon as you start crucifying people in the hopes that they'll be forgiven by god and go to heaven, then there's a problem. (Yes, this happened)



Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Its about why I hate science apperantly not about bettas anymore boy where this convo is turning to haha


Welcome to the internet. Comments rarely stay on original topic for more than a half-dozen pages due to exponentially stupid comments. It's page 7 now, and there was a particularly egregious comment that people felt obliged to reply specifically to, so it's started deviating.


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## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

There are just so many things I've changed my mind about, been taught different about, changed my opinion on involving aquatics that I couldn't list them all. Often it's one of those "wow, I never thought of that!" moments. Much of it has science behind it, much of it has a sort of common sense organizational thing behind it.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

lostkavi said:


> I believe that there will come a time when humans won't be jerks to each other over the internet. :/ Seriously.
> 
> Still seriously, there is a difference between holding a belief and acting on it. You can believe in santa all you want, but the minute you start buying parkas and chartering a trip to the poltomic, then it's time to pop that bubble.
> You can believe that god exists. As soon as you start crucifying people in the hopes that they'll be forgiven by god and go to heaven, then there's a problem. (Yes, this happened)
> ...


 
I agree on what you said it has its good and bads as well some of what christians do is wrong and bad i agree but there are good christians like me who wont critisize and judge and believe god loves everyone


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tolak said:


> There are just so many things I've changed my mind about, been taught different about, changed my opinion on involving aquatics that I couldn't list them all. Often it's one of those "wow, I never thought of that!" moments. Much of it has science behind it, much of it has a sort of common sense organizational thing behind it.


Willing to learn new things sure but change my mind over my own beliefs um no i wont do that why should it bother anyone anyways if i believe my betta is happy he is healthy and taken care of so what??!


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

WOW there's been a lot of comments since I last commented . . . got a lot of replies to make! Here goes.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Yes they do feel i wonder why they scream abuse everytime they see a betta in a tiny cup neglected after all it has no feelings huh so why shoukd they care right?


Yes, I don't know why all these people who say bettas don't feel are so sad to see them in small cups . . . if they don't feel, why would it matter if the cups were small?


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11.. no offense but last I checked this wasn't your thread, nor was anyone attacking your beliefs or thoughts - only giving *their opinion* on the subject of what science thinks about bettas/brains/etc. No one was asking you to change your beliefs or way of thinking.


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

Heartbeats, why don't you use the MQ (multiquote) tool to make a bunch of replies instead of one each reply?


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Tolak said:


> This is a major reason why animal shelters are filled with dogs. Dogs do not think, act or feel the same as humans. Too many people think they do, and have a horrible time training them, with the dog being dropped off or let loose, rather than the owner getting it through their thick skull that animals don't think, feel, or perceive the world the same as humans.
> 
> Dogs function at a higher level than fish, much has been written and studied about dogs' thought processes. Dogs don't posses these attributes you're saying fish have, and if fish did they'd be a higher functioning animal than dogs.


I never said that animals don't think differently than us. I know they do, but they certainly do think.

Yes, maybe a lot has been written about dog's thought proccess. Basically nothing has been written about fish thought. But because nothing has been written about fish, that means there is a lot of new places to go with fish thought. I want to go there.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tress said:


> Ilovebettasbk11.. no offense but last I checked this wasn't your thread, nor was anyone attacking your beliefs or thoughts - only giving *their opinion* on the subject of what science thinks about bettas/brains/etc. No one was asking you to change your beliefs or way of thinking.


Ok whatever i am enjoyimg this conversation lol its a great one i think


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Willing to learn new things sure but change my mind over my own beliefs um no i wont do that why should it bother anyone anyways if i believe my betta is happy he is healthy and taken care of so what??!


So long as your betta _is_ healthy and taken care of, then you can believe he wants tap dancing lessons for all it matters, you're right.

People are just wary that you might actually try and enroll your fish in your local dance course, which obviously is not good for the fish. The metaphore might be extreme, but the same thing applies to those who say "my betta is lonely" and then the new pair of fish end up killing each other.

"Belief and action are two different ideas that often should have as little to do with each other as possible"


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

lostkavi said:


> So long as your betta _is_ healthy and taken care of, then you can believe he wants tap dancing lessons for all it matters, you're right.
> 
> People are just wary that you might actually try and enroll your fish in your local dance course, which obviously is not good for the fish. The metaphore might be extreme, but the same thing applies to those who say "my betta is lonely" and then the new pair of fish end up killing each other.


I understand where you are coming from but i am not like that. I will never ever breed my betta or overfeed him like some do


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

lostkavi said:


> So long as your betta _is_ healthy and taken care of, then you can believe he wants tap dancing lessons for all it matters, you're right.
> 
> People are just wary that you might actually try and enroll your fish in your local dance course, which obviously is not good for the fish. The metaphore might be extreme, but the same thing applies to those who say "my betta is lonely" and then the new pair of fish end up killing each other.
> 
> "Belief and action are two different ideas that often should have as little to do with each other as possible"


+1

That's exactly it. People have gone and done stupid things like that because they thought their fish was "lonely" or "wanted a girlfriend" and it always ends badly for the fish. Then the owners come to sites like this and cry to us "Why are they killing each other, they were in love!". THAT is why we worry when people throw the words "happy" and "lonely" around. Not saying that they can't be either, but it is used as an excuse to do things they shouldn't.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tress said:


> +1
> 
> That's exactly it. People have gone and done stupid things like that because they thought their fish was "lonely" or "wanted a girlfriend" and it always ends badly for the fish. Then the owners come to sites like this and cry to us "Why are they killing each other, they were in love!". THAT is why we worry when people throw the words "happy" and "lonely" around. Not saying that they can't be either, but it is used as an excuse to do things they shouldn't.


Yea but i dont do that i wont breed my betta i know its alot of work and responsibility and overfeed them 

I love my dog like a brother i dont give him human food or dress him up in human clothes at all


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Be strong op dont let others put you down science by the way makes me very mad
> 
> People use science on everything just to put others down there is no proof that they do feel but there is no prood that thry dont feel either unless you are a fish yourself tou got no oriof that they dont feel


Yes, exactly how I feel! Fish might be so different than ANY Aof us think, because none of us are fish! That's what I was trying to say, that we, as humans, know how intelligent we are but if looking at ourselves from above, we might just think we looked like little machines walking around!



LittleBettaFish said:


> You can believe a fish doesn't operate emotionally on the same level as a human, but still be aware that they are capable of suffering through poor care.
> 
> I don't treat my bettas poorly, but I don't believe they possess a level of intelligence/self-awareness anywhere near that of humans. I can still love my fish, even if they don't love me back.
> 
> ...


That, I wouldn't mind. I love nature & being in the wild.



Tolak said:


> Science is what leads to the truth about how our world works.
> 
> I think science is a little hyped up. If something keeps getting disproven over & over, how can it be a solid fact!





Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Maybe i will quit technology one day heck i would love to live in the nature


Me too!



Tress said:


> I think the thing we also need to remember is... Science is still learning. We have only studied the tip of the iceberg when it comes to brains. Since we do not yet have a way to view the world as an animal does, or to truly know how much they can feel and understand, I believe it is a very close minded statement to deny the possibility until science has matured enough to give 100% proof.
> 
> That's exactly what I think! Science keeps getting disproven over and over, so it can't be relied on yet in my mind.
> 
> Science is still making new discoveries that discredit old "facts". So no fact is set in stone. It's still learning and evolving.


+1000



Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Bingo you need to be that animal and see what its like otherwise there is no proof that they feel or not just belief


Exactly, again +1000



trilobite said:


> Says the person on their computer...Without science your fish would be dead from ammonia by now, infact you wouldnt have any bettas because you wouldnt have been able to get to thailand in the first place
> 
> 
> True about not getting to Thailand, but not neccisarilly about the being dead from ammonia! Have you ever heard of intuition? People knew how to do things long before there was science, just from their gut/intuition.
> ...


I said, I understand my animals as animals BUT they do feel.



lostkavi said:


> The important thing to remember is no matter what, we are all humans, thinking with human brains and perceiving with humans senses. We're _ALL_ biased towards human means of thinking.
> 
> True, I agree! We can't know what a betta is like, because there might be things that our brains don't even understand. In the big picture, we are all human & can be kind of limited sometimes.
> 
> ...





Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Haha funny very funny how cute science may be good sure fine whatever but i hate it the way people use it on others beliefs


True, science in its self is good, but not when it's used against other ways of seeing things. It's not all about proving things. Sometimes you can go just on how you feel.



trilobite said:


> Why do you hate it when used on beliefs? Science is understanding the world and universe we live in and helping us grow, discover and explore everything. Thats an awesome thing, not something to be hated


It is awsome to grow, discover, & explore everything. Science does explore everything, but I think it does the opposite of helping us to grow! It puts beliefs in our heads about what's real, when other things might be real in other ways. Science can make us think small, not always big. We can't think about the big picture.



Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Its about why I hate science apperantly not about bettas anymore boy where this convo is turning to haha


Yes, that is funny that you just saying you hate science got turned into the whole topic of this thread!:lol:



VivianKJean said:


> without science then we would not even be on this website having this discussion. Science is a great thing that advances our world. Science plays a huge part in fish keeping and if you hate science than you hate a major part of fish keeping.


Science does great things, but actually my fish did the opposite of benefit from "scientific" keeping. I try to do it more from just what makes my fish happy (but using science as a back up) than try to use only the "numbers" of everything. You can look at life and see just a bunch of numbers, or you can see that life is sacred & holy & more than just calculating & "proving" things.



lostkavi said:


> Still seriously, there is a difference between holding a belief and acting on it. You can believe in santa all you want, but the minute you start buying parkas and chartering a trip to the poltomic, then it's time to pop that bubble.
> You can believe that god exists. As soon as you start crucifying people in the hopes that they'll be forgiven by god and go to heaven, then there's a problem. (Yes, this happened)
> 
> Actually, I'm planning a trip to Thailand just because I have a dream of sunny rice paddies & bettas. It seems crazy but I can make it work someday. It's not a bad thing to act on one's dreams, as long as you're not hurting anyone.
> ...


Haha! LOL, how true!


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Tress said:


> Heartbeats, why don't you use the MQ (multiquote) tool to make a bunch of replies instead of one each reply?


I did this.


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Yea but i dont do that i wont breed my betta i know its alot of work and responsibility and overfeed them


Are you the one who has said bettas should only get 3 pellets a day? If so, do you think anyone who feeds their fish more than that is an irresponsible betta keeper?

---

Personally, I don't think bettas have many human-like emotions. I feel as humans we feel the need to explain their behavior in terms we ourselves understand. However, I don't think it's a bad thing at all even if I don't agree with it. BTW it does NOT stop me from calling my fish by his name, asking him if he's ready for his dinner, telling him what a good boy he was for eating all his food, or telling him, "I'll be back at 6 Filbert!" I can't help it. :lol:

From my own experiences, when people explain their beta's emotions as 'happy' or 'sad' or 'lonely' etc. it frequently means they are going to take more care of them because they are bonded with them in an emotional way. I am not saying if you're like me and don't believe in many of these feelings you're a crap betta owner mind you. I just think, for example, if someone comes on here and thinks their betta is 'sad' they're going to be sure to try and 'fix' the problem - which might be adding a heater, doing more water changes, etc.

I hope the above makes sense. I feel like I am not getting my point across clearly. Hopefully it makes at least some sense. Heh.


----------



## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Rosewynn said:


> Are you the one who has said bettas should only get 3 pellets a day? If so, do you think anyone who feeds their fish more than that is an irresponsible betta keeper?


i feed my betta three pellets a day no one has to do what i do each people are different but you know some people do overfeed their bettas


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> i feed my betta three pellets a day no one has to do what i do each people are different but you know some people do overfeed their bettas


Ahh, thanks; I was just curious. ;-)


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## Tress (Jun 6, 2014)

Sorry to burst your bubble about going to Thailand to see the rice fields and wild bettas, but sadly almost all that that environment is gone. That's why its so important that there are people keeping the wild type bettas. Plus not all of the wild bettas are from the paddies, many live in different environments like streams.

Trust me, in a perfect world I'd want to be able to go see the wild bettas thriving in their habitats, but the world is marching in a much different direction.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Rosewynn said:


> Ahh, thanks; I was just curious. ;-)


Yup, i just worry about overfeeding mine thats the last thing i want


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> Personally, I don't think bettas have many human-like emotions. I feel as humans we feel the need to explain their behavior in terms we ourselves understand. However, I don't think it's a bad thing at all even if I don't agree with it. BTW it does NOT stop me from calling my fish by his name, asking him if he's ready for his dinner, telling him what a good boy he was for eating all his food, or telling him, "I'll be back at 6 Filbert!" I can't help it. :lol:
> 
> From my own experiences, when people explain their beta's emotions as 'happy' or 'sad' or 'lonely' etc. it frequently means they are going to take more care of them because they are bonded with them in an emotional way. I am not saying if you're like me and don't believe in many of these feelings you're a crap betta owner mind you. I just think, for example, if someone comes on here and thinks their betta is 'sad' they're going to be sure to try and 'fix' the problem - which might be adding a heater, doing more water changes, etc.
> 
> I hope the above makes sense. I feel like I am not getting my point across clearly. Hopefully it makes at least some sense. Heh.



This is what I mean by that it's good to assume bettas care about their life^

If you act like they DO care, but also you have common sense (so you don't do something like give your betta an inapropriate friend) then you can't really go too wrong! Because, if it turns out they don't care it wont be doing them BAD, & if they do care it will do them GOOD.

Yes, I think I understand what you mean. If you act like your betta has emotions, you will take your bettas needs more seriously because you think they'll suffer if you don't. Right? So that means, whether they do or don't care, you will be taking care of them.


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Tress said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble about going to Thailand to see the rice fields and wild bettas, but sadly almost all that that environment is gone. That's why its so important that there are people keeping the wild type bettas. Plus not all of the wild bettas are from the paddies, many live in different environments like streams.
> 
> Trust me, in a perfect world I'd want to be able to go see the wild bettas thriving in their habitats, but the world is marching in a much different direction.


I know there aren't many rice paddies left, but I still want to see some. I know they live in other places too. I want to change that, so bettas can still be in their natural places. There are still some. 

Plus, it isn't all about bettas . . . I just seem to like Thailand! (it started with bettas, but ended up I just like Thailand.)


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Heartbettas said:


> Yes, I think I understand what you mean. If you act like your betta has emotions, you will take your bettas needs more seriously because you think they'll suffer if you don't. Right? So that means, whether they do or don't care, you will be taking care of them.


Yep! That's pretty much what I mean. I am glad it was somewhat understandable. :lol:


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

LittleBettaFish said:


> To me, the above situation is just basic survival instinct. The conditions are causing stress/potential damage to the health of the fish, and if the fish is to survive, it's going to have to get out.


+1 Littlebettafish....it's a survival instinct not an emotional one.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Tolak said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto
> 
> But don't feel bad, apparently he is as well.


Ohmigosh! Now I know why my frozen bottle of water melted and fell off my nightstand and woke me up! It wanted me to drink it! I always knew water had a brain! Thanks Tolak!


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

VivianKJean said:


> without science then we would not even be on this website having this discussion. Science is a great thing that advances our world. Science plays a huge part in fish keeping and if you hate science than you hate a major part of fish keeping.


Agreed!


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## PickyPrince (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm gonna try to make some sense, but it's hard to explain how I feel about this. I ramble a lot so sorry in advance.

I believe that fish do feel pain, that has actually been proven by Dr Peter Laming using goldfish, however we cannot tell if they experience it the same way we do and they certainly can't make sense of it like we do. I can't give any examples with my betta because I am waaaay too careful with him, but it is like with Pavlov's dogs except negative. Things like pain or stress is hard for them to forget and they learn to relate these things to certain actions, people, or places whether that relation makes sense or not. The same goes for any excitement they might show when you approach them, most likely they see a human and relate you to being fed or other positive things.

In my opinion, treating an animals care like "Well, I would like this so they will too." is selfish, uncaring, and the easiest way to avoid actually working to understand the animal and keep them healthy.

I do believe a healthy amount of anthropomorphizing is possible though, the way I would think about it is more like "Well, I would want my needs understood and met, so I'm gonna do my best to understand and meet his needs." It takes acknowledging that this animal is not you and does not feel the same way as you, aside from a natural will to live, whether you want to pretend they do on occasion or not.

For the record, I do anthropomorphize my fish to an extent, talking to him and pretending he's listening and is excited to see me, even though I know he's probably just hoping for food, does wonders for my mental health. He doesn't tend to come out of hiding as quickly when my friends want to see him, so I'll say he's shy with strangers, when I know it's really just that they aren't the ones feeding him. As a person who is uncomfortable being around people for too long, this sort of thing really helps me cope and I do encourage it as long as the animal's health is put first.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

You should see the care and time plant enthusiasts (no idea what theyre called lol) go into looking after their plants. I'm pretty sure they dont think their plants have emotions but the level care and attention they get is astounding. Not thinking your fish has human emotions has nothing to do with the level of care it receives. If someone wants to abuse something they arent going to care if it has feelings or not


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

TerriGtoo said:


> Bettas do not feel happiness, joy, sadness, love or any other human emotion.


How can you possibly know that?


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Tolak said:


> Dogs don't posses these attributes you're saying fish have


Are you saying that dogs don't feel love,happiness,sadness etc?

Because if you are I disagree 100%,dogs definitely do feel those emotions without a doubt.

There are so many studies proving this fact too.Example - 

http://www.kshb.com/news/studies-affirm-dogs-have-human-like-feelings-and-responses


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Polkadot said:


> Are you saying that dogs don't feel love,happiness,sadness etc?
> 
> Because if you are I disagree 100%,dogs definitely do feel those emotions without a doubt.


I disagree too on this my dog feels love, he cant stand being alone without people he fries and cries all day when i get home he greets me with excitement 

Not to mention how he follows my mom around


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> I disagree too on this my dog feels love, he cant stand being alone without people he fries and cries all day when i get home he greets me with excitement
> 
> Not to mention how he follows my mom around


Oh yeah mine too,dogs are super special! :-D



Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Thats the thing they got no proof its just all talk i say unless you are a fish you dont know for sure


Yep!


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Polkadot said:


> Oh yeah mine too,dogs are super special! :-D
> 
> 
> 
> Yep!


They sure are special i love him to bits lol he is my baby hehe

I truly believe that if you have a soul yiu got to feel something


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Agreed! I love all animals (except for mosquitos) but dogs are definitely my all time favourite animal ever.They are beyond special. :-D

And who is to say that not all living creatures have a soul too (some people believe animals other than humans don't) THAT is one thing no one would ever be able to prove or disprove.I believe all animals have a soul.It is each to their own on that particular belief.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Polkadot said:


> Agreed! I love all animals (except for mosquitos) but dogs are definitely my all time favourite animal ever.They are beyond special. :-D
> 
> And who is to say that not all living creatures have a soul too (some people believe animals other than humans don't) THAT is one thing no one would ever be able to prove or disprove.I believe all animals have a soul.It is each to their own on that particular belief.


Its as if we are the only intelligent spicies in this world the rest are too stupid and dont have a sould haha 

No animal can compare to dogs they dont say mans best friend for nothing


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

If dogs dont have feelings then why we bring them to nursing homes or hospitals anyways? Dogs dont critisize or judge you they have a special bond with humans


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

^ Agreed to both.Dogs = Happiness!


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

PickyPrince said:


> In my opinion, treating an animals care like "Well, I would like this so they will too." is selfish, uncaring, and the easiest way to avoid actually working to understand the animal and keep them healthy.
> 
> I 100% agree^ You need to try & understand how they might feel, because they feel different from you. You can't assume an animal is LIKE you, but I don't think saying they can feel things like joy or love is saying they are LIKE you. That's just saying they have a soul. I agree with Ilovebettasbk11, that if you have a soul you can feel. Even if you can't feel in your body, you can feel in your mind & soul.
> 
> ...





trilobite said:


> You should see the care and time plant enthusiasts (no idea what theyre called lol) go into looking after their plants. I'm pretty sure they dont think their plants have emotions but the level care and attention they get is astounding. Not thinking your fish has human emotions has nothing to do with the level of care it receives. If someone wants to abuse something they arent going to care if it has feelings or not
> 
> I know you might still give the fish what it needs, but it's for a different goal than for the fish's happiness, if you don't think they can be happy in the first place.





Polkadot said:


> Are you saying that dogs don't feel love,happiness,sadness etc?
> 
> Because if you are I disagree 100%,dogs definitely do feel those emotions without a doubt.
> 
> ...





Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> I disagree too on this my dog feels love, he cant stand being alone without people he fries and cries all day when i get home he greets me with excitement
> 
> Not to mention how he follows my mom around


Mine too! :-D he certainly has feelings, I think his feelings are even as much as humans feelings! I think my fish has very different feelings from humans, but I do think he has very real feelings. :-D



Polkadot said:


> Agreed! I love all animals (except for mosquitos)
> 
> Haha, I find a way to like all animals: I always will be grateful to the mosquitos for providing food for my fish!:lol:
> 
> ...





Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Thats the thing they got no proof its just all talk i say unless you are a fish you dont know for sure
> 
> +1000





Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> If dogs dont have feelings then why we bring them to nursing homes or hospitals anyways? Dogs dont critisize or judge you they have a special bond with humans
> 
> That's what I was saying about fish, that why do people even care what kind of care fish are given, if they think fish can't feel?


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## Heartbettas (Dec 13, 2014)

Polkadot said:


> ^ Agreed to both.Dogs = Happiness!


Yes! Certainly, dogs (or most animals for that matter) = happiness! :-D


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## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

3 things that will always stir up trouble in discussions:

Politics
Beliefs
...

Be nice to each other, it doesn't matter if someone does or does not agree with your statement. 

I grew up often hearing these wise words: Your right, your freedom, ends where another person's starts!


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I would like to point out that dogs are mammals and fish are aquatic.... 

that are very different species so I do not understand why they are being compared. 

I should have made my original post clear. When I said pain, i meant mental/psychological pain. Obviously since bettas have nerves they feel physical pain. But like LBF said, it is more of a survival thing than an emotional thing. 

have any of you younger ones read Lord Of The Flies? That book is a perfect example how survival instinct will over power emotions in a time of crisis. 

Personally, I think that many over romanticize their fish too much. Yes, all my fish have names (even my snail has a name) and I love and care about my fish very much but I still don't think they experience emotions. For them it is a survival thing. Their only goal is to survive and reproduce. The bond that you think your fish has for you is mostly dependent the fact that your fish has learned that you are the one that provides them with food. Its purely based on survival.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

+1 Viv


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Polkadot said:


> How can you possibly know that?


 
Because "Happiness" "Joy" "love" and "sadness" are human terms, not fish terms. That's how I know this. Again, it's anthropomorphizing fish.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

+1 to Terri. They are human terms to describe the emotions that humans feel.


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## selah (Oct 14, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> I would like to point out that dogs are mammals and fish are aquatic....
> 
> that are very different species so I do not understand why they are being compared.
> 
> ...


+1


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Ilovebettasbk11 said:


> Its as if we are the only intelligent spicies in this world the rest are too stupid and dont have a sould haha
> 
> No animal can compare to dogs they dont say mans best friend for nothing


Not true. Whoever said that was a human obviously. And only one person's opinion. Whatever the companion animal a person has, is that person's best "friend". (and I use that term loosely).
For me it's my Himmy, parrot, and fish. They all have their own special ways of being a companion to a human. However I still treat them like animals, and not humans in fur coats or feathers or scales.

BTW: You just contradicted yourself saying "the rest are too stupid"
Then say that "no other animal can compare to a dog"?


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

Heartbettas said:


> Oh, you acting all truimphant trying to disprove my belief. I think I remember that you're the one who said beliefs couldn't be disproven, correct?
> 
> It's not going to work! I've always felt the way he does, (emoto) even before I know about him I felt that way.
> 
> It's just that you don't want to believe it, so you find reason not to.


Beliefs can be disproven. You can believe something that's wrong. What you can't do is force someone to believe elsewise. All you can do is lay down the evidence, and they can accept or reject it. 

Side note: Emoto is (was?) a known scamster. Probably wouldn't go to him to make a sound statement.

And another thing: An important fact to consider is that dogs display their 'emotions' in ways we can understand because dogs are a social species. They live in packs, and depend on each othre for survival. Humans are also a very social species, albiet depending on much larger packs than dogs need.
Bettas are about as antisocial as they come. Does not compare.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Your whole argument that I don't know anything unless I am a fish is seriously flawed. 

a betta's brain is not as complex as ours is. Bettas do not even have a language of communicating besides flaring. They are a simpler species than we are. 

Also, you can certainly believe something is "wrong". For example (yet again). I can believe that I can lick my elbow. But, a human's body physically does not allow for someone to be able to lick their elbow but I can still believe it. Doesn't mean it is true. Beliefs are more like opinions then facts. Facts are first proven by something - either an experiment or something along those lines - but facts can be then can be said false due to advancements of technologies, other experiments or something along those lines.


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

Heartbettas said:


> Beliefs can be disproven. You can believe something that's wrong. What you can't do is force someone to believe elsewise. All you can do is lay down the evidence, and they can accept or reject it.
> 
> You can't believe something "wrong", you can believe something that doesn't seem true to someone ELSE, but it can't be wrong exactly. Nothing is that simple that you can have only one answer: even fish aren't that simple! Heck, we just filled an entire 11 (I think) pages just with whether fish can feel! So obviously, nothing is so simple.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can. I can believe that someone is a 12 year old brat in someones attic, trying to act tough on the internet because they are either a or get bullied in real life. That can be wrong. They might be a mature adult who's just had a really crappy week and is needing to blow some steam out on some...fish forums? It's plausible.
While your premise that nothing ever has only 1 answer is correct, the idea that something can't be fundementally incorrect is itself incorrect. That's a false dichotomy. (EG: there's a middle ground between the two ideas)

Emoto's scientific publications were highly critisised and riddled with poorly recorded practices and questionable conclusions. Independant researchers tried to replicate his study (which he flat refused to disclose exactly what he did to attain the results he did, which in and of itself is HIGHLY suspicious) and found absolutely none of the results he claimed, and he was directly challenged with a million dollar prize pool to replicate his findings under agreed laboratory conditions. He refused -> AKA: he made it all up, cobbled together some experiment method that might lead to this astounding discovery in order to get publicity and sell his books, and when someone called his bluff, he threw down his cards and left the table. This is absolutely textbook science fraud, it happens all the time (well, at least regularly, if not frequently, and all across the board from vaccines to environmental research). Fortunately, much like the vast majority of frauds, very little ado is held about him, as everyone quickly forgets his discovery and his name is ridiculed for a few weeks and is forgotten along with his bogus findings.

FYI: solitary and social are antonyms of each other. By extension, solitary and antisocial are the same thing. Obviously there's a little nuance to be held there with regards to human interaction, but we're talking about fish.
And yes, you're right, I'm sure they have them. We just don't understand them - and there are a great many people in this thread pretending that they understand them and _*THAT*_ is the problem here.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

lostkavi said:


> Yes, you can. I can believe that someone is a 12 year old brat in someones attic, trying to act tough on the internet because they are either a or get bullied in real life.


Haha I could post an article relating lonely behaviour to the tendency for anthropomorphism....But I shouldnt lol

A humans way of surviving is through intelligence and social connections, so its easy to assume ours is the best way of surviving and all creatures must have some form of this intelligence and sociability. But for a bird the best way to survive is flying, and a fishs way of surviving is swimming. It doesnt make any survival method better or worse, but its important to realize and accept their differences. 
I just dont see how one has to justify caring for fish by giving it abstract human feelings. Isnt it better to accept that they are a completely different non human species instead of trying to make them more like us.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

Rosewynn said:


> Ahh, thanks; I was just curious. ;-)


Lol, yes me too ;-)

Well this was certainly interesting to read.. I'm not sure where my opinion is on all of this, but, I do think/feel that any animal whether is be a great and mighty lion all the way down to an ant feels pain, I actually kind of believe plants feel pain too, not sure if that's taking it too far and getting a bit weird for this thread lol. 

@Tress -replying for a few pages ago- there is no point in explaining that people were giving their *opinion*, because the concept of an opinion is hard to get the head around apparently, trust me, had many "discussions" about this ha :roll:


I think I want to look into this more, I have my work christmas break for 2 weeks coming up soon and thinking of heading around to some privately run pet stores and getting some opinions from them, finding some internet articles (if anyone would like to provide me with some links would be great PM me perhaps) and seeing what I can gather together, of course I'm not going to be able to find a definite yes or no answer but as someone who wants to get into animal work I think it would benefit me  
One of the things I really do want to know is; Why do bettas make bubble nests?? I've heard many reasons why they do it, they are bored, natural instinct or they are (yes I actually read this on here) horny.. but would love if I could get perhaps a more in-depth answer to this with some studies etc.
What about other fish other than bettas? I've seen a few videos where someone puts their hand into the tank and (not 100% sure on breed of the fish) will come up and rub up against the hand and force "pats" does this mean they love their owner and want attention/affection?? similar to a dog or cat?? 

I think this is a really interesting subject for me to maybe look into some more as I've never really thought of it all till just now and seeing this thread, so thanks guys  :-D

P.S hope what I have said doesn't make me sound like a complete noob. I am new to this but would certainly like to know more


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## MikeG14 (May 31, 2014)

Taking care of and providing for my bettas makes _me_ feel good. In turn, I hope in someway they appreciate the hard work, love and empathy I give to them on a daily basis. Sometimes I wish I could shrink myself down and swim with them and give them a big cuddly hug or a belly rub.

But lets face it, if they ever got the chance they would just kill me with their face and eat me.


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## JessikaSky (Sep 6, 2014)

MikeG14 said:


> But lets face it, if they ever got the chance they would just kill me with their face and eat me.


LOL!! This ^ :lol: :lol:


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

MikeG14 said:


> Taking care of and providing for my bettas makes _me_ feel good. In turn, I hope in someway they appreciate the hard work, love and empathy I give to them on a daily basis. Sometimes I wish I could shrink myself down and swim with them and give them a big cuddly hug or a belly rub.
> 
> But lets face it, if they ever got the chance they would just kill me with their face and eat me.


Just be glad they are not giants lol hahaha my betta can jump and will bite ones finger lol


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

trilobite said:


> <snip>Isnt it better to accept that they are a completely different non human species instead of trying to make them more like us.


If only.



JessikaSky said:


> LOL!! This ^ :lol: :lol:


X2


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

lostkavi said:


> If only.
> 
> 
> 
> X2



X3 lol


----------



## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Polkadot said:


> Are you saying that dogs don't feel love,happiness,sadness etc?
> Because if you are I disagree 100%,dogs definitely do feel those emotions without a doubt.
> There are so many studies proving this fact too.Example -
> http://www.kshb.com/news/studies-affirm-dogs-have-human-like-feelings-and-responses [/quote]
> ...


----------



## Tolak (Nov 13, 2012)

Heartbettas said:


> Oh, you acting all truimphant trying to disprove my belief. I think I remember that you're the one who said beliefs couldn't be disproven, correct?





Tolak said:


> And you're stating opinion, not fact. Facts and thoughts are two separate things; facts can be proven, or disproven, thoughts can not.


If it's a belief it's neither proven nor disproven, it's what you believe. It's like proving or disproving the existence of God, that existence is a belief. There's no proving involved. When you start calling that belief a fact, as mentioned previously, it gets held to that standard of provability. 



Heartbettas said:


> It's not going to work! I've always felt the way he does, (emoto) even before I know about him I felt that way.
> 
> It's just that you don't want to believe it, so you find reason not to.


Someone else summed it up better than I could;



lostkavi said:


> Emoto's scientific publications were highly critisised and riddled with poorly recorded practices and questionable conclusions. Independant researchers tried to replicate his study (which he flat refused to disclose exactly what he did to attain the results he did, which in and of itself is HIGHLY suspicious) and found absolutely none of the results he claimed, and he was directly challenged with a million dollar prize pool to replicate his findings under agreed laboratory conditions. He refused -> AKA: he made it all up, cobbled together some experiment method that might lead to this astounding discovery in order to get publicity and sell his books, and when someone called his bluff, he threw down his cards and left the table. This is absolutely textbook science fraud, it happens all the time (well, at least regularly, if not frequently, and all across the board from vaccines to environmental research). Fortunately, much like the vast majority of frauds, very little ado is held about him, as everyone quickly forgets his discovery and his name is ridiculed for a few weeks and is forgotten along with his bogus findings.


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## Honeybun93 (Nov 7, 2014)

I most certainly do agree betta's are amazing creatures! I will do anything I can do try to make my betta fish happy because I know how intelligent they are! I have suffered the loss of a couple before the guy I have now and it really was painful... I don't think everyone understands this exactly but I think us animal people are a little bit more sensitive to the subject.


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## Ilovebettasbk11 (Nov 12, 2013)

Honeybun93 said:


> I most certainly do agree betta's are amazing creatures! I will do anything I can do try to make my betta fish happy because I know how intelligent they are! I have suffered the loss of a couple before the guy I have now and it really was painful... I don't think everyone understands this exactly but I think us animal people are a little bit more sensitive to the subject.


I so agree with you on this!


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## Rosewynn (Apr 9, 2013)

Honeybun93 said:


> but I think us animal people are a little bit more sensitive to the subject.


*nods* Most definitely. I mean just the fact that we're all posting on a forum dedicated to our pet fish is very telling. My friend also keeps bettas but she doesn't care about them outside of keeping them simply because they're pretty. While most of us on here really enjoy learning and discussing the possibility of things like emotions our fish might possess it is something that would put my friend to sleep. She takes good care of her fish but just doesn't have an attachment to them in any way. I can't imagine not loving my fish and she can't imagine loving hers.


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## Polkadot (Feb 10, 2013)

Tolak said:


> Polkadot said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying that dogs don't feel love,happiness,sadness etc?
> ...


----------



## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

Polkadot said:


> 'thinking types & feeling types' - I think it's more like UNfeeling types & feeling types.
> 
> I have had dogs all my life and do not need any books or studies (telling me either way) for me to know that dogs definitely do know what love,happiness,sadness etc etc etc is.I have seen it and experienced it with all my dogs.
> 
> If you do not have the same connection with your dog then you are definitely missing out.


No, no it's thinking and feeling types. Thinking types do feel. They just don't let it dominate their decision making, preferring to rely on past experience and reason. Feeling types are usually quite rash and impulsive and generally quite poor judgement makers.

While it's great that you have such a connection with your doggies, what you think they feel is actually a funny little condition called human 'empathy'. Sure, dog's have their own varient of some of the more basic emotions, happy/sad/lonely/threatened/etc etc, but you can't say they love you because love is a _strictly _monogamous emotion and dogs, well...aren't.

As for missing out, I'd go the other way. I would consider my pet a good freind - it's a form of love, platonic mind. I'd rather have another human for some actual love though - tends to be a bit more rewarding. Sure, dogs make great companions, but if you're devoting all your resources and attention to your pup, then you don't have that same connection with your partner, and it's _you_ who is missing out.


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## lostkavi (Oct 16, 2014)

Polkadot said:


> _*I know what I see and experience with my dogs.*_Yes I am a feeling person when it comes to my dogs,but I also have things well in perspective and do have a full loving connection with my partner.


This is how I know you're a feeling person. Sure, you know what you see and you know what you experience, and I will never know either. But you really ought to know that senses are dishonest, perception can be flawed and in statistical samples, n never equals 1. A feeling person ignores these conditions on a routine basis.
I see and hear things all the time that aren't actually there, slight bit of cross linking in my brain due to a mild concussion results in some signals getting crossed, nothing I haven't learned to ignore. I know while I think my own opinion is correct (else I wouldn't be holding it >.>), peer review is a thing for a very good reason, and my opinion on it's own isn't enough.
And while it's great that you think what you feel what they feel - in the long and short of it..._that really doesn't matter at all._ Cause n =/= 1, and in the grand sampling - you are a statistical anomoly.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Wow, this has gone very much off topic, if you want to talk about dogs then please go to the dog forum we have.

Perseusmom has already warned you all, I suggest you lay it to rest now.

I am requesting this thread to be closed.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

Closed due to the fact of members being uncivil to each other.


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## Romad (Jun 28, 2009)

When we have some more time later today to deal with this nonsense, this thread will be cleaned up, posts removed, and people notified. This behavior is disturbing to say the least.


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