# Specific color genetics question



## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

This is about a type of black color in Bettas.

I hope it's okay to put this question here--"Betta Chat" seems more like pet set-ups and anecdotes, which--while very entertaining--doesn't seem like the place that would get the most expert feedback on this.

So, I had for about five years what I'd call a "petstore find," that I never considered breeding because, well, he came from a pet store.

He died during a natural disaster event, several months ago, and since then, I've looked at thousands of Betta pics, trying to find his exact color again.

Somehow I've lost the files with pics of him (clever me!) and never had a great pic of him anyhow--VERY hard to capture in a photo.

Okay, so he was huge, a halfmoon, and his base color was black. He had definite pink in the webbing on his caudal, dorsal, and to a lesser extent, his anal fin.

His scales were NOT dragon scale, not iridescent (I don't think, anyway), and he didn't appear "metallic," per se.

But, every time he moved under the light, a sheen of gold, green (think sage/mint, not the turquoise blue in Bettas), and pink would flash and show.

I've looked and looked and searched, and Black Coppers come the closest, but still no cigar.

Fish I've seen listed as "Black Orchid" best match his fins, but then again, I've seen blue/black Bettas listed as "Black Orchid" and he had ZERO blue.

Can anyone help?

I'd love to know what color terms to search under, as I've been looking for one similar to him, for quite a while now.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Could you be talking about a black lace maybe? It is derived from marble, so not the purest black.



Or perhaps a black devil? That is a variation with lots of red wash as far as I know.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

The black devil colouration was the one I was thinking of when I read this post.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Perhaps Black Copper as well?

That would show pinkish, but some are very minimal copper that it's just a pink/green/blue/purple sheen depending on the light.


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## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

Gosh, you guys rock, thanks.

That "Black Devil" Crowntail that Fenghuang posted is by far the closest thing to my guy that I've seen yet.

Still not quite right, but I imagine there would be variations in this type of coloring, right?

The second Black Copper that Lilnaugrim posted is a near miss--he was sort of like that, but not nearly so much pink, and zero blue, ever, no matter the angle or the lighting.

I've actually _not_ been clicking on "Black Devil" when I've searched auction sites for black fish, because the first few I clicked were very bright red and black fish and so I assumed _that_ was what Black Devil is, and it wasn't even close.


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## RainbowsHaven (Aug 28, 2013)

Ha, I was going full-blown pink until I saw your most recent post... I'd pulled up this guy on aquabid. 

From what you're describing, though... Black Copper really sounds like the best bet. With any coloration though, there can be pretty large variations between enough type of the coloring. Especially among the black colorations!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Black Devils can be anything from a very bright red:










To a very dull red wash, lots of variation. The boy that Feng posted, I wouldn't call Black Devil, I'd call that a Black Copper as well.









Black Devil is supposed to be a Black bodied fish with either a red wash with a black band around the edge of the fin, or a solid red color on the beginning of the fins with a black band around the edge. Fish that are black bodied and solid red fins should not be classed as Black Devil (though, some still do) and should be instead, a bi-color.


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Black lace is actually not derived from marble. Black Lace originally came from selective breeding to reduce the amount of red over time on non-iridescent Bettas.


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## Fenghuang (Dec 28, 2012)

Nimble said:


> Black lace is actually not derived from marble. Black Lace originally came from selective breeding to reduce the amount of red over time on non-iridescent Bettas.


I apologize for spreading bad information then. It is just that I have been reading up on black myself and most of the articles I having been reading explain black lace that way, so I assumed... One does mention that originally, black lace may have come out of non-red fish, but these days, the vast majority of black lace fish are out of marble stock.

Here are two of the sources:
http://www.bettysplendens.com/the-different-types-of-black.html
https://sites.google.com/site/bettadreams/blackgenetics


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

Fenghuang said:


> I apologize for spreading bad information then. It is just that I have been reading up on black myself and most of the articles I having been reading explain black lace that way, so I assumed... One does mention that originally, black lace may have come out of non-red fish, but these days, the vast majority of black lace fish are out of marble stock.
> 
> Here are two of the sources:
> http://www.bettysplendens.com/the-different-types-of-black.html
> https://sites.google.com/site/bettadreams/blackgenetics



It's quite alright. I'm just repeating what I've been told by people who've been in the hobby for a long while. Modern Black Lace may have been integrated with marble to intensify the black, but it originally came from either introducing red loss, or just slowly reducing red with non-red fish over time, until nothing but the black remained.


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## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

lilnaugrim said:


> Black Devils can be anything from a very bright red:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, okay, I see.

So, yes, that top pic is what I kept finding when I clicked on "Black Devil."

(For a while there, I was clicking on nearly anything that had the word "black" in the description.)

So, I guess I will concentrate my search on Black Coppers, then.

It's not like I think I will replace my guy--he just truly was my favorite color of Betta I've ever owned, and I'd like to have one (or preferably a pair with good form) that comes close, at least.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Was his body iridescent too? Or just the branching?

Sounds to me like he was a black-based fella with a slight iridescent spread that was morphed by a marble gene. It's very common for blacks to stem from marbles, and as we all know, marble is highly unpredictable and probably caused the pink/red sheen across the iridescence. I have read that this occurrence will not breed true, so he may have been a rare specimen. 

You could try to replicate his coloring, by line breeding with copper-based blacks.


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## AukWord (Mar 15, 2015)

KadenJames said:


> Was his body iridescent too? Or just the branching?
> 
> Sounds to me like he was a black-based fella with a slight iridescent spread that was morphed by a marble gene. It's very common for blacks to stem from marbles, and as we all know, marble is highly unpredictable and probably caused the pink/red sheen across the iridescence. I have read that this occurrence will not breed true, so he may have been a rare specimen.
> 
> You could try to replicate his coloring, by line breeding with copper-based blacks.




Very interesting, thanks for the post.

Yes, his body had that "sheen" when he moved under lights. Pinkish to goldish to light greenish.

I wasn't sure whether to term it "iridescence" or not, since the scales themselves did not appear distinctly metallic/reflective the way I've come to think of, in seeing so many pics of iridescent fish.

He was so huge too, that I now wonder if he was someone's HM Giant project cull who landed for sale in a LFS.

Huge fins, brawny body. A really cool find, for a pet fish.

I have found similar colors in black coppers now, on some sales sites, but so far the ones I like for color are all CTs and I definitely feel I don't know enough yet to tackle those--still learning about HMs.


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