# Sick betta! Swollen lip, white lump under gill. PLEASE HELP!



## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Just yesterday I came home to my betta fish, Sparky, not looking himself. His bottom lip looks swollen and almost like it has a very slight white pus coming out of it. He also looks light he has a white-ish lump under his gills that seems to be growing. He also seems to have some fin rot. I immediately went to Petsmart and got some Pimafix and treated the water last night and again this morning. Then I read online that Pimafix didn't work very well, so I rushed out to exchange it and got E.M. Erythromycin and treated the water in my bettas tank. He lives alone in a 10 gallon aquarium that is kept around 79-80 degrees. So far I have not done any water changes since he got sick for fear of making the meds ineffective. I am VERY worried about him... I love this little guy with all of my heart and I really don't want to lose him. He has been acting very lethargic the last few days and just lingers in the top corner of his tank. I can get him to eat, but only if I drop the pellets right in front of his face to where he doesn't have to move very much to get to them. Right now I have part of his tank covered with a towel and the lights off in the room he is in. What else can I do to help him recover? I have read about aguarium salt, but I don't have any of that on hand...are there any substitutes for that? Can I try to change some of his water? On the E.M. Erythromycin box it does not say to change any water until the second or third day...and I am just not wanting to wait that long... I treated him at 3pm today... Could I try to change part of the water? Or should I wait until tomorrow at the 24 hour mark? Please help...any information is greatly appreciated. Sorry this was long, but I am frantic and do not want to lose my beloved Sparky.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Please help...Someone has to know something


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

You can change 50% of the water and just treat new water with dose of the medication again. You can do it every day. Just redose required dose of the medications.

Did you see his poop? I am just trying to understand if it internal parasites. If it is his poo will be white,clear,stringy,wormy shape. I would also lower the water in the tank or transfer him in the hospital tank it will help him to swim up to the surface for air.

Epsom salt i am really recommending. In the town i live we have it at any pharmacy.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I am not sure about his lip, but he does look bloated. Have you looked at his poo? If so, does it look white and stringy? Epsom salt is often used for treating bloating, but the bloating could either be a sign of constipation or internal parasites.
I don't have experience with that medication, but I find it strange that it says not to change the water.. With salt treatments, you want to do 100% daily water changes and probably move the fish to a hospital tank as this makes it easier... If the ammonia or nitrites are high, change the water immediately. Warm, clean water is usually the key.

sorry, I'm slow, lol.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

I even saw someone treated with medication and daily water changes just redosing every time when you do changes. So if you can find Epsom salt. Pre mix and shake make sure it dissolved 3tsp/gall . Do daily 100% water changes. Make sure you acclimate him slowly to the new water. Just keep adding small amount of the new water to his changing cup , let him sit in that water for a few minutes and do it 2-3 times.

Also if you can find Stress coat API add it to his water. It will replenish his slime coat . 

Did you overfeed him? When is last time when you see his poop?

Please never use Pimafix or Bettafix

Didn't see your post posted at the same time


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

me too lol


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Thank you for the responses! I have seen small whiteish things floating around in the water, but it didnt look like anything that should be of concern so i didn't think anything of it. His tank has always had some stuff that floats around from time to time just from the gravel and water changes. Could it be parasites? If it is, what should I do? And I hate to admit it but he has eaten at least 5 pellets today...just in a desperate attempt to help him recover. Which could explain why the spot looks bigger than it did earlier. 

I don't have any epsom salt on hand.. and I don't think I can make a run to Walmart tonight, or any time before 2pm tomorrow  Is there anything else I can use? 

Lastly, I have 2 gallons of water already treated sitting out right now so the temp will adjust. I was planning on doing a 20% water change in a few minutes, but should I just move him to a 1 gal bowl? I wont have any way to heat or filter it if I do. Also, if he is moved to the bowl, is it okay to add some of the medication to the clean water? They come in packets for 10 gallons, so it would be hard to figure out what dosage to put in, but not impossible...

Thank you all!


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

It's important to keep him at 78-80 degrees but you do not need a filter in the smaller tank since you will be doing 100% water changes, anyways. It will also help him swim without water movement. You can continue using the medication until you get epsom salt. I also don't know if the parasites float, but often times my tanks have a whitish coat on the surface that will not hurt anything.

I would also fast him to help with the bloating.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info! I am going to go and set him up a clean 1 gal bowl and add a small amount of the medication. I will be sure to get some epsom salt asap tomorrow. I am only worried about the temperature... My house is kept at 68 degrees and that cannot be changed. I can move him upstairs where it is a little warmer but other than that, I dont know what to do. I'm afraid that a heater for a 10 gallon aquarium would be too much for a tiny bowl. Any suggestions?

Also, how to I go about using the epsom salt when I get it? How much per gal, should I dissolve it, etc? or should I just do baths? 

Sorry - I am new to betta sickness :'(


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

1tsp per gallon, pre-dissolved. Is your heater adjustable? I'd highly recommend one if it is not.

If you can't heat the one gallon, you can keep him in the ten gallon I guess and reduce the water level. However, if your tank is cycled, it will ruin the cycle most likely. Are you using the current medication in his ten gallon? I believe the filter will make the medication less effective, anyways.

It seems to me like he is mostly just bloated, and often times just fasting them will cure it without the need for medication. However, I am still unsure about his lip... That seems more like something that should be treated with AQ salt, if it is even a problem.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

You can use small container. Do you have container that you brought betta in from the store? Or any other plastic container. You can let if float in his 10 gall tank so you can keep the temperature stable. I guess just stick the container to the tank walls so it don't move and lower the water in the tank so he don't jump out.
When you do water changes you can't just add a little bit of the medications. You need to add full dose of it. And you will do it with every water changes. For example if day 2 you need to use double dose then just change the water and put double dose of the medications. 

You need pre dissolve 2 tsp/gall of the Epsom salt.
How many pellets you usually feed him?Also white floating stuff might be his slime coat. Not sure. But check his poop it will give us idea if he has internal parasites. With internal parasites poo will be white,clear color.

Sorry Ayala..posted didn't see your answer


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Don't use AQ with bloat. You need epsom salts for this. Get them when you can I guess.. as soon as you can. They need to be pure 100% with no additives - check the ingredients list.

Definitely fast him at least a couple of days. Watch his poop and check what the color and shape is. If it's ballish he's constipated. If it's anything but brown like the pellets you feed him he has an infection.

I would check the ammonia levels in this tank with all he has going on I wonder if your tank is not cycled for some reason. His overall appearance really suggests there may be a water quality problem.


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## BeatrixKiddo (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm sorry that your fish is sick. I know this is very stressful for you and your betta, but you shouldn't stop treatment midway with antibiotics if you can help it. This method will produce antibiotic resistent bacteria that will make treating him more difficult. As for partially changing his water now, it would be difficult to correctly dose any volume of water you put back in.

After the water change on the second day of erythromycin, is there anyway you could put him in a quarantine tank or at least a smaller container like 1 gallon? Not only will it be easier for him to reach the surface for air, but it will make dosing his medication easier and more cost effective.

As per your question about an aquarium salt substitute, kosher salt or sea salt can be used. You really just can't put iodized salt or salt with other additives.

I hope one of the more experienced members will be able to advise you on the illness. I really hope Sparky gets better!


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

his lip i also don't know but i was thinking if it can be his slime coat? Not sure. I don't know anything about cycling but if you can change water and try to see if white on his lips will go away. If it go away it can be just his slime coat. Also i agree about bloating. If he used to eat less before and just got bloated after you feed him then he might be bloated because you overfeed him. Then just fast him and see if it will help. Then if it helps you don't even need to treat him with Epsom. But i would still have it on hands though.


Sorry guys of course didn't see any of the responses. I need to refresh before i posted.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

I just did a 25% water change in his 10 gallon tank. I was too afraid to put him in a bowl without a heater in my 68 degree house. He does seem much happier with the clean water! He swam around for a minute or two, which I have not seen him do all day. He returned to his corner after a few minutes but seems to have perked up a bit and has been wiggling around a little more. My tank is not cycled... I really don't know much about cycling. I will be sure to get some Epsom Salt asap tomorrow. As for the water quality, I have to admit, he did have the same filter cartridge in his tank for quite a while. I rinsed it out regularly and cleaned it just to save myself the cost. While I was at the store today getting his medicine I actually got a new package of filters and put one in, only to take it out an hour later realizing that it could be absording the medication. Since around 4pm his tank has been running without a filter. 

I plan on doing a 100% water change and tank cleaning tomorrow and giving him another dose of his medication, along with epsom salt. Does this sound like a good route to go?

Also, I may sound silly, but what is AQ? lol.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

You are supposed to keep the filter cartridges and rinse them in old tank water.

AQ is aquarium salt.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Also, does this look like a _classic_ case of bloat? Because I have a younger sister that likes to feed poor Sparky when I am not home and I come home and feed him again, not knowing that he has already been fed. Bloat definitely seems like a possiblity.. I am just praying that that is what it is. 

And thank you Ayala!


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Yes, he definitely looks bloated. Fasting him will help!


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Thank you so much! I will be able to sleep a bit easier tonight  And I will definitely have him fast.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Since you have a 10 gallon and a filter it would be easier to keep him healthy if you cycle the tank. There's a sticky in the forum about fish in cycling, if you wan to take a look. If you don't want to cycle, he needs 100% weekly water change. Make sure to keep the water the same temp and acclimate him anyway each time so he doesn't get shocked.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree if you don't cycle you need regular weekly changes. You can do 50% weekly and 100% every 2 weeks. And if you don't cycle you really don't need filter. Filters is only for cycled tanks.
If you really think that he been overfed just wait for 2 days don't feed him and if he is better it will be the answer. Also if you can get frozen daphnia in the store it really will help him if he is constipated. I saw dried daphnia in the store. I think it will help too. I just think if you fed him 5 pellets and your sister fed him then it probably what it is-overfeeding. So you can hold on Epsom salt. If he is not better in 2 days definitely -Epsom salt to go. And still
check his poop just to be on the safe side.
If you just used one dose of medications i would stop it. I don't think he needs it. How is his lip? Still has white pus? I just think if it was slime coat like someone wrote you really don't need to use medications. Super clean water will help. And also i would not use filter at all i think he needs as less water movement as possible. So i would take it out and do regular water changes since you don't cycle thank any way. And start with 50% water changes.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Thank you for that info! I don't think I will be cycling so the regular 50% amd 100% water changes will be a must for me. I was able to go and get some Epsom Salt today but I think I will wait until tonight to see if I want to use it - don't want to stress him out too much. However, he still looks just as bloated as last night. As for his lip, after one dose of the medications it is looking much better today! The swelling has gone down a lot but is still there, so I really want to go ahead with the medication to be on the safe side. On the box it says it treats mouth fungus, so thats what I would be using it for. If it did happen to be something even more minor, the meds won't hurt him, will they??

As for the filter, I will turn it off now. Maybe he will want to swim around more.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you keep that filter running and do 50% weekly and 100% on week two you will eventually end up with a cycled tank anyway (so long as you only rinse the filter in tank water and don't let it dry out). It's not hard, so I do suggest looking at the sticky. http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=47838 However, 50% and 100% alternating is not enough. Sorry. You need at least two 50% during the week followed by 100% at 2 weeks end according to the mods here: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=66595 Personally I've never had such a large tank without a filter so I can't bring any personal experience to the table, but if you want to change less often then you should use a drops test kit for ammonia daily after the one week mark and any time you see any ammonia at all it needs a change. You'll start to get a pattern and learn how long you can leave it before you need a change. And ideally, you change before you see ammonia. Like I know with my 5 gallons unfiltered they need changes every 5 days because on day six, like clockwork. I have ammonia show.

Erythromycin is a pretty good med. It might help with any external infection, but it's very unlikely to touch the belly bloat. Right now he really needs the epsoms for that bloat. You can use epsoms and the Erythromycin together.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Earlier today I did a 100% water change and cleaned out Sparky's whole tank. While I was cleaning the water, I had him in a bowl of his tank water mixed with 1 tsp epsom salt for about 30 mins. I only used his tank water because I was worried about having a temperature difference...should i just go with clean water next time, even if the temp is a little different? Anyway, after his salt bath I put him back in his tank and treated it again with the medicine. As of right now he is acting a little better, but is still pretty lethargic. His lip is definitely getting better, but the bloat does not seem to be any smaller yet. I also have not fed him today. How long does it usually take for bettas to recover? Is there something else I should try?


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

They are very resilient and can usually recover from things quickly, IMO. I would not risk the temperature change. It could shock him which would make his symptoms worse. Try getting the tap water at the same temp as the tank water using the same thermometer in both. I would stick with what you are doing now. It often takes a few days for the bloating to go down so just be patient and don't feed him anything. They can live weeks without food.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

+1^

Also, you don't need quick salt baths. He can stay in the epsom salts for weeks right along with the meds. He'll need to be on them for a few days to see any results.

With bloat like that I would expect up to two weeks for full recovery. I'm glad he's starting to act a little better


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

If you can buy thermometer that you can stick outside of the tank , i think it called stripe thermometer. It really show the temperature change right away. What i do. First i know what temp he is in. I scoop out all water. Then i pour new water in the tank about more 75%. And l i check the temperature. Then i see if i need more cold or warm to add to reach the temp that i need. And if it about 2-4* difference it fine, because you can just keep adding small amount to the changing cup and let him acclimate in it. And like Ayala wrote you need to keep him in the salt water. You really can go with 2tsp/gall so if he is in 10 gall you need to pre disolve 20 tsp for 10 gall. Epsom salt is very mild on fish you can use it even up to 3tsp/gall. for long time.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I personally don't trust the thermometers you stick on the outside because the outside of the tank is usually colder than the inside. I just have a hard time believing they can be that accurate. I would also slowly add the salt at first, just to get him used to the change. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it is what I'd personally do.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Adding salt slowly is a good idea 1/4-1/8 tsp per gallon should not be stressful, but if you're going for a full tsp I would increase it slowly over a few hours. I've never used over 1 tsp but I know others have used up to 3. Since the salts also cause a ph drop, I'd be really careful if you have soft water (PH close to 7.0 or even less). If you have hard water it won't effect the ph as much as isn't as big of a deal. I have seen fish stressed by 1/2 tsp epsoms so I wouldn't assume 3 tsp is very mild, but if you acclimate apparently they tolerate it.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

I've been told a lot of different things in regards to the Epsom salt, lol. Should I add 1 tsp pet gallon to the tank or just do baths? I want the most effective way to help cure him without putting too much stress on him.

And I will be using a thermometer that stick to the inside.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Longer exposure to Epsom salt will not hurt him. Just make sure you add it gradually. 1tsp/gal is fine.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Epsom salt is very mild and will not hurt him. It also has antibacterial/fungal effect . You can safely use 1tsp/gall up to 3 tsp/gall. In some cases if fish has chronic sb problem you can use epsom salt in lower dose of 1tsp/gall- indefinitely. But if your betta bloated from overfeeding- 1tsp is enough. I would even try to fast him first. If he will not recovered in about 5 days i would increase the dosage. One thing i confused with instructions was given is that i though that it really better to dissolved it first before adding in the tank. I know with aquarium salt you absolutely can not add it without dissolving because you can burn the fish. I do know epsom salt is mild though but i always though that its better to pre dissolved it. AlsoI like those strip thermometers though.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It's mild as long as you acclimate. Yes, it needs to be predissolved. The stick outside thermometers are not accurate.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Okay, now I am starting to get very worried. It still seems like the bloat is not going down. Today I did a 50% water change in addition to the 100% I did yesterday, along with adding some epsom salt and medication again. It is not getting bigger, but is not going down. I have also not fed him at all today or yesterday. He is acting a looot better and is moving around more, but the bloat still worries me. I looked at him from above today and it looks like his scales may be starting to pinecone.. I cannot tell for certain though because it is slight. I think it could be from a drop in temperature though as the water change made his water a bit colder. Could it be dropsy? :'( I will try to get a picture...


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

It very well could be dropsy, however, bloating can cause slight pine coning. It doesn't always go away right away, either. Epsom salt is probably needed immediately.
Does he have swollen eyes or a gray belly?


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Right now there is about 3-4 tsp dissolved epsom in his 10 gal tank. The pineconing I am seeing is very slight and can only be seen in one of the pictures if you look closely/zoom in...sorry I couldnt get great ones. It really is slight and is easier seen with the naked eye but is enough to get me worried. I really hope I am just being paranoid. He is acting so much better, though. He does not have a grey belly or swollen eyes, from what I can tell. He does, however, have a small grey spot on his head that you can see in the pics if I can get them to upload :evil:


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Maybe that will work for the picture.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Swollen eyes and a grey belly are the first signs of dropsy. I would just keep gradually adding salt to get it to 1tsp per gallon.

Edit: I kind of see what you mean about the pine coning... but it looks just around his belly area.


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## BettaLinz (Jun 19, 2011)

Alright, I will add another tsp before bed and will add more tomorrow. Thank you so much for bearing with me throughout this! I am so grateful for everyones help!  I will report back tomorrow with updates

EDIT: That's what I thought, as well. It's very slight and only around the swollen area.


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## SuperNoob (Dec 7, 2012)

do you have a small container you could float inside your 10 gallon? That would keep him warm but lessen the amount of water you have to change and meds you have to use. That would also keep him closer to the surface.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

When you using salt treatment it should be right dosage or it will not help. If you using 3-4 tsp for 10 gall it not helping. The right dosage minimum 1tsp/gall up to 3 tsp/gall.. I am going to give you a few links so you have idea about salt dosages.
Check.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=114815 check #7 from Sakura she is one of the most knowledgeable on the forum.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=115527 Check #3 Tikibirds recommendation

And especially if he is still bloated and pineconning you really need to use right dosage and i would really do 3 tsp/gall pre dissolved with daily water changes + medications.


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