# Koi genetics (again)



## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

Going by indijo's theory that females are (mostly) responsible for passing down finnage I chose a dumbo girl and a koi male to start off my dumbo koi project. Female is pink and white with some darker red splotches on her head while the male has great koi pattern and very good form, although for some reason he's not too keen on flaring. The fry are now about three months old and some are over an inch - I've seperated one male because he was flaring and chasing his siblings, but other than the ocassional sparring session int he grow out tank the fry are quite peaceful. 

Anyway, my question is, when does the koi pattern start to show? There literally seems to be zero koi fry in this spawn and I was told that crossing a koi to a different colour than koi produces more koi fry than a koi x koi spawn. Meanwhile I have just about everything else: whites, pink butterflies, purples, different shades of blue, cambodians--the list goes on. I stuff them with food multiple times a day and do large water changes at least 2-3 times a week (I'm at college monday-wednesday so they don't get much attention then) and most are showing pretty strong colours... just not koi. 

Any idea what I'm doing wrong? My next spawn won't take place until late March next year so if this colour combo doesn't work out I may need to use a different female. Perhaps yellow? Or white? Because I'm going on a 3 week holiday in March I don't want to breed again until I come back as I can't put the responsibility of looking afer babies on my boyfriend - do you guys reckon I should buy (assuming I need to) the new female before or after I come back?


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## lookimawave (Feb 27, 2012)

I think I read two koi siblings is the best way to get koi fry and that koi x fancy is next best.

I tried a koi plakat female with a dalmation/marble/butterfly halfmoon male recently and I have 0 koi in my spawn (yet?) too . Some colors are definitely still developing though. What I found interesting though is the breeder I purchased the koi female from paired two fancy plakats and her spawn was almost all koi! Now when I received my female she was koi (orange white black red). Now she is fancy. The cellophane white as completely been replaced with color but she has a few new platinum white spots. That being said it's likely that all her brothers and sisters eventually changed from koi to fancy as well. Next I would like to try to mate her with a platinum male. I'm hoping there will be more platinum patches. I don't know much about genetics though...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You didnt do anything wrong. Sometimes their phenotye is "weak" that their offspring only becomes a carrier. 

I have never really worked with koi. But they say that koi works similarly to dalmation ie, they produce more by breeding to a non said pattern. Perhaps you need to breed for F2. One thing for sure; don't give up.


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

Thanks guys. 

I'm certainly not giving up on this project. Some of the fry are looking rather good, particularly the young male that had been reperated. I showed him one of the adult girls from a different tank and poor boy got very excited haha. He's got a nice spread, good shaped fins and a big dorsal. All he's missing is the koi pattern. 

I'll see if I can get some pictures at some point.


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## Asiakp (Oct 25, 2013)

OK I am posting here not to offend anyone, but because I do have some experience to impart in regards to koi genetics. Your best bet to get koi pattern is to do koi x koi, and no, they do not have to be related. 

Solid x koi will not get you very many koi. I have done orange x koi and red x koi, as well as yellow x koi. My results of these spawns were : orange Cambodians, red Cambodians, 'dirty' yellows, solid yellows, and one Armageddon. I did get two, literally, TWO marbles out of my orange x koi spawn. The marbles are orange, white, and black, but not in anything resembling the koi pattern. 

I spawned the solid to koi because like you, I was told by other breeders that that would give me my largest percentage of koi fry. I truly regret following this advice, because I only want to work with kois and golds, and not a single fry from those pairings is going to contribute to that. I think this is a rumor that has been repeated so often that everyone just accepts it as fact. 

I have done several spawns of unrelated koi to unrelated koi, and almost all of my fry from those spawns are showing the koi pattern. I did get a few cellos as well as some fancies. 

Sorry if this offends anyone who believes that the koi x solid theory to be true. Its not a coincidence that I did not get any koi fry from these pairings, as I've worked kois all year now, and have repeated these spawns several times to conclude that it simply doesn't work. I've got about a hundred bettas from those spawns as we speak sitting in a couple of 20 gallons as proof that it does not work. 

On the other hand, I have dozens of absolutely beautiful koi as well, that resulted from my unrelated koi to unrelated koi pairings, so all is not lost, but seriously, this theory caused me to waste a lot of time, effort, and resources on fry that I can't use to further my lines.

I'm not trying to be arrogant, or say that I know more than breeders who have been in this hobby for much longer than I have, I just don't want anyone else being misled by this theory. I understand that a lot of people are just repeating what they have been told, and that they are not the ones who instigated this theory. However, I have been fascinated by koi bettas ever since I first saw one, and have put a lot of hard work, and a LOT of money that I didn't have into experimenting with them, and can safely say that you are best off breeding a koi to a koi, related or not, although I've also noticed that spawns from related pairs seem to have a lower survival rate, though that is just speculation on my part, and could indeed be a coincidence. Please don't be offended anyone, I know you can't decipher my tone through a wall of text, but I really am just attempting to share my experience with kois, not trying to be patronizing or a know-it-all. 

Also, in my experience, my kois all began to display the pattern by two months, but the patterns were not fully developed until after four months. However, I've heard from other breeders that their kois did not express the pattern until after six months.

I hope this helps, sorry if my post comes off as pushy, and sorry for so much text! Good luck with your spawns, try koi x koi just ONE TIME and I promise you will see results.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

^That actually makes a lot of sense, Asiakp. From a genetic standpoint, I could never understand why solid x koi would give more koi, but that theory shows up everywhere. Before they change into the koi pattern, what color are your fry? A couple of koi sibling spawns by a friend start out looking like blues or multi-color (red/blue) and then all the blue disappears to reveal koi. Just curious if you see the same thing or something different?


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

Wow, thank you!


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## lookimawave (Feb 27, 2012)

Yes thank you for sharing your experience! I will certainly try koi x koi next! I was previously going try koi X gold or platinum next spawn with hopes of getting gold spots/patches. I'm still curious if gold spots are possible. What do you think?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Asiakp (and everyone) please don't be afraid to post contradictive experiences and views. We are here to provide help, info, and discuss. No one person is able to experience first hand breeding every single color/pattern. Many learn genetics from other people's experiences (including myself) and pass it on. We can only learn new things by comparing experiences.

I too sometimes refuse popular views - such as Cambodian being recessive - because my experiences tells me otherwise. It's not because "I AM RIGHT" kind of attitude. By sharing such contradictive experiences, I wish people would share their experiences so we can discuss the how and why. That's how we learn. And now I am in no position to experiment on various genes (newer color patterns) so I rely on other people's results and views. 

By coincidence, someone I know produced lots of koi by breeding koi to non koi. So I believed it when people say koi x non koi produces more koi. Please share your experiences, however contradictive it may be, so we can all learn as much as possible.

Thank you for sharing your experience. 
I hope others who have first hand experience with kois are willing to post their views as well.


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## lookimawave (Feb 27, 2012)

I would love so see some photos, Asiakp if you are willing to share 

Also I see a lot more nice plakat koi than long finned variety. Any reason for this?


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## Asiakp (Oct 25, 2013)

Sorry it took so long to respond everyone, unfortunately had to work this Thanksgiving, so haven't had a chance to write back till now.
Zhylis, heres the patterns I've observed with my red kois before two months of age: reddish brown body with red fins, pale cream body with red fins, and yes, most of them have very discouraging patches of blue! I've observed that the blue is usually on the top part of the body, covering the head and the back. The first time I saw this, I panicked, thinking that I was going to get a lot of ugly bicolors, but luckily, it does indeed fade away around 3-4 months.
With yellow kois, they start off with brown bodies and yellowish fins, and cream colored bodies with yellowish fins. I say 'yellowish' because the yellow is often so faint that you start to wonder if you're really even seeing it, or if your imagination is playing tricks on you. A lot of times they just look flat out brown! I did not observe any blue patches with the yellow kois, it only seems to make an appearance with red kois, and oranges. 

Lookimawave, I have actually tried to spawn a gold to a koi before! Unfortunately, I only had a couple of fry that survived that spawn, and they were deformed so I had to cull, but before I culled, they had platinum blue bodies with red fins. They were only around a month and a half at that time though, so that could very well have changed. 
I have heard from other breeders that they have tried gold x marble, and gotten some very interesting fish with gold and black patches, so it may be worth a shot to try it with koi and see what you get, although unlike a lot of breeders, I do not believe the koi gene works exactly the same way as the marble gene does. I've heard over and over again that the two are identical, but in my experience, true kois do not go through drastic pattern and color changes the way that many marbles do. Once they develop their patterns, the pattern tends to stay the same. If a koi does happen to change drastically, then I believe that there is some marble in the background. A true koi may have their color patches increase in size slightly, but they should not look like a totally different fish month to month. So i encourage you to try the gold x koi spawn, and let us know your results! Im curious to see if it works the way that marble x gold works.

Indjo, you've always been very very good about stating that anything you say about kois is only what you have heard from other breeders! I've seen you answer other breeders many times when they ask about koi genetics, and you've always made it very clear that you have not worked with kois yourself. So I did not think you would take offense to anything that I said, but I admit, I do get worried about offending other breeders. Some breeders can get stubborn and refuse to listen if you contradict what they have to say, and some will even aggressively defend a theory, even if they have not experimented with that theory themselves. I have seen this many times in the betta world, so I just wanted to make it clear that I am not trying to offend anyone! 
I do believe that you can maybe use a solid color from a koi spawn and do a solid x koi that way, and get a lot of koi fry, but I have not tried that yet. I honestly did not get any solids from my koi spawns, otherwise, I would definitely give it a try and see if that pairing gives me a bigger yield. 
I've even considered using a solid from my solid x koi Fry, but none of these fry have a color that I would want passed on. The yellows are not nice yellows, they are pale washed out yellows. The orange Cambodians are kind of neat looking, but I do not want more Cambodians. If I have the room sometime in the future, I will be willing to try it though.
Before I began working with koi, i sought out some indo and thai breeders who had several generations of koi lines that they had bred. Every single one of them told me to use koi x koi, related or not. One breeder did say to use a white dragon scale x koi, but i havent tried it yet, and i cannot say for sure if it works or not.
On the other hand, all of the western breeders i spoke with said to use solid x koi, so even though i had advice from indo and thai breeders with vast experience with kois, i decided to also listen to the western breeders and see what happened. 
I feel that was a mistake, because i do not know of any western breeders who have done more than a couple of generations of koi spawns, nor do i know anh western breeders who work exclusively with kois. So i am not sure why i went to western breeders at all, but at least now i know to not repeat that combo again.
Lookimawave, i also have observed that the most spectacular koi patterns seem to come from plakats. Hm do have some koi patterns, but typically the pattern will not be as vivid, or as defined, or the hm will have a rather nice pattern, but have terrible form. 
I have worked exclusively with hmpk, so everything i have said up to this point can probably only be applied to them. I have heard that hms do not produce as deep or as vivid colors as pk and vt, though i do not recall why that is, just something i read in passing, but did not pay as much attention to as i should have because i had no intentions of working with hms at that point.
However, that has changed. I was able to aquire an absolutely stunning pair of koi hms with great color and form, and i have multiple spawns from the male, all under a month. So very soon, i will be able to shed more light on whether or not the koi gene works the same as with hmpk. So far, the oldest spawn is showing coloring identical to the hmpk babies of the same age, so i hope to get lots of koi babies!
Also, i would be more than happy to post photos, but i will make a new thread so that i do not take over ops post.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

> I do not believe the koi gene works exactly the same way as the marble gene does. I've heard over and over again that the two are identical, but in my experience, true kois do not go through drastic pattern and color changes the way that many marbles do.


I used to defend this view. The one time I had a koi, it was not marble related - never changed color/pattern. I would not name a changing color/pattern other than marble. But everyone else was saying it is marble, so accepted it.

I have this second generation : SB x blue - blackish fry x SB. It was cellophane when juvie and slowly colored as it aged. It never changed pattern like marbles normally do. BUT it does carry marble since SB seems to be marble related. So what would you call this guy


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

@asiakp, see the problem is that I can't do koi x koi since no koi dumbos exist as far as I'm aware. I appreciate the input though, it'll surely be very helpful in the future! I'm not giving up on this project (despite how difficult it's proving to be) so I'll be doing another spawn after my holiday. Do you reckon it'd be better to do a sibling spawn from this one even though none are koi? Or should I go down the koi x yellow dumbo route? I'll probably have to buy a new male as the father of this spawn has fallen sick - I hope I can save him.


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

This is all great info and thank you again everyone! I love my koi's and hope to get some with my spawning...Although, I'm not sure if my female is a koi or marble...lol I have three definite koi males and one male that many be koi? But my spawning will be marble (M) X Koi/marble female


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

LOVE this fish!!

I have this second generation : SB x blue - blackish fry x SB. It was cellophane when juvie and slowly colored as it aged. It never changed pattern like marbles normally do. BUT it does carry marble since SB seems to be marble related. So what would you call this guy[/QUOTE]


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

indjo said:


> I used to defend this view. The one time I had a koi, it was not marble related - never changed color/pattern. I would not name a changing color/pattern other than marble. But everyone else was saying it is marble, so accepted it.
> 
> I have this second generation : SB x blue - blackish fry x SB. It was cellophane when juvie and slowly colored as it aged. It never changed pattern like marbles normally do. BUT it does carry marble since SB seems to be marble related. So what would you call this guy



LOVE this fish!


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

^^ not sure how any of this is relevant but ok &#55357;&#56834;

Anyway, here's a quick update: 

I bought a yellow dumbo female, so I'll be breeding her when I get back from holiday in April. I haven't decided on the male yet - whether I want to breed to a yellow or red koi. What do you guys think? I'll obviously not get any dumbos in F1c but I need at least some koi fry this time!


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

Bumpity bump, I'm still looking for answers and advice. 

The yellow female arrived DOA this morning which I'm very upset about but the seller will send me a yellow HMEE female after Christmas as a replacement. This brings another problem: I eventually want to achieve HMPK dumbos, so would I be better getting a HM or HMPK male for her? I still don't know if I need a yellow or red koi.


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## lookimawave (Feb 27, 2012)

I vote for yellow koi  just because I like them more. Sorry to hear about your yellow female


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## Kisiel (Jul 30, 2014)

lookimawave said:


> I vote for yellow koi  just because I like them more. Sorry to hear about your yellow female


Thank you  There's been yet another change of plan, and I'm no longer getting the HM female - instead, the seller will send me one of his own yellow dumbo fry, they're HMPK but can't be sexed yet. Not that it matters much to me, I just hope we won't have another DOA - the baby will be here on Wednesday, so fingers crossed.


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