# Is this velvet on my girl?



## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Including my first post about him twitching because my form is in there and it'll help understand how I've gotten to this point.









New problem with Sundance...He is now twitching.


So he has started twitching pretty often while swimming. Started maybe 2 days ago. I finished a third round of kanaplex about 4 days ago and he was fine. I gave him the first two rounds back to back Nov 1st so he had a good week before the third one. I'm actually going to upload a video because...




www.bettafish.com





And now the pictures. 



























































I definitely see gold here and there...On his cheeks and so on. DO I need to start treating for velvet now? Poor guy...


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Couldn't wait for an answer so I've started the lesser intense way of treating which is darkness/heat and aquarium salt. I figured I'd try this before going for the very dangerous copper even though I have it and a hospital tank ready. He has no other things living with him but plants which I can replace so I'm treating the tank directly right now with the salt/dark and heat. At least then if it IS velvet it'll eradicate it all in his tank too. He doesn't mind the salt. Still swimming fine.


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## Eli4Ever! (Apr 25, 2021)

Sorry about your boy being ill and hopefully more answers come soon


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

*I found this at wikihow

Shine a flashlight on your fish.* One way to see velvet is to use a light directly on your fish. The light will help you see the shimmer of gold or rust that this disease can produce on the scales. Your fish will exhibit other symptoms, such as lethargy, loss of appetite, and rubbing or scratching himself against walls or items in the aquarium. He may also have clamped fins.

This parasite can be prevented by adding aquarium salt and water conditioner to your tank on a regular basis.[32] You need to add 1 teaspoon of aquarium salt for 2 1/2 gallons of water. You also need a drop of water conditioner per gallon, though always read the instructions that come with your water conditioner. Only add extra salt when doing water changes, _not_ when topping off a tank.
i'm so sorry, he was doing great, i don't know why he got sick... 😢


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

betta4ever! said:


> *I found this at wikihow
> 
> Shine a flashlight on your fish.* One way to see velvet is to use a light directly on your fish. The light will help you see the shimmer of gold or rust that this disease can produce on the scales. Your fish will exhibit other symptoms, such as lethargy, loss of appetite, and rubbing or scratching himself against walls or items in the aquarium. He may also have clamped fins.
> 
> ...


It's possible he had it when we adopted him. He was in such bad condition. Maybe the 3 treatments of kanaplex kinda kept it under control but now it's resistant to it. Idk. Today he still has a really good voracious appetite. But not very active. I removed his light and it's fairly dark in the room he's in. I'm trying to get the temp above 80 but it's hard because I don't want to risk raising the temp too much and cooking him so I just turn the heater dial a tiny bit when it's not raising at all. I added 4 teaspoons of salt last night. I'll add the copper sulfate (coppersafe) tonight when I'm home so I can monitor him. I really don't want him to die without ever getting to really live...I'm sad the poor guy is going through one thing after another.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

I have never personally seen velvet, but looking at other sources that does look like it. 

You did the right thing by going ahead and starting treatment, better to hit it quickly then risk it getting worse.

Salt and copper is supposed to be able to get rid of it, and also good you're dosing the whole tank since it goes onto everything. Sorry you have to lose your plants though. 

And look at it this way? Yes, he's going through things back to back, but he's gotten a chance to live. If you hadn't rescued him, well, he probably wouldn't be here sadly. And he's in a place where he's loved and has been given a good fighting chance. 
He's beaten the odds once, he can do it again! 

Hope Sundance starts feeling better soon, I'm rooting for you two!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> I have never personally seen velvet, but looking at other sources that does look like it.
> 
> You did the right thing by going ahead and starting treatment, better to hit it quickly then risk it getting worse.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. I've learned more since oct 27th about bettas and fish diseases than I ever knew in my whole 32 years of life that's for sure...And you're right. At least he has a chance and I know he would be long gone if we hadn't gotten him...And if I do fail with him, my husband and I agreed that we will keep trying to save the worst off looking betta in the pet shop. Sundance will not be the last.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

It's not failing if you've done everything you can. Sometimes we just lose. 

But he's not gone yet! You havent failed him, you've saved him. You can do it again! 

I love that, it's always great to hear that other people will do that too. They all need love, but the worse off ones need it more I think.


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

What eridanus said is 100% correct, you gave him the chance to live, and you haven't failed him!! I hope the best for him!!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

I've decided to rule out Velvet. I know you see gold in the pictures. However, those pictures are stills from a video I made with my phone using the phone's light and I believe the auto filter made his iridescent spots look golden. Last night I turned off all the lights in the bedroom and put a flashlight on him and saw no gold. Just his lovely greens and blues. The spot on his cheek that looks so golden in the pictures in reality is simply iridescent. Also looking at other fish with velvet they appear to have a dusting on them. like dust particles that appear gold or rusty and he doesn't have that. Luckily when I started treating him for Velvet I decided to wait on the Coppersafe and try the aquarium salt, darkness and heat method. So he hasn't been unnecessarily treated with the copper and I'll add it to my betta's first aid stash for the future.

I believe he DOEs have swim bladder disease and I believe it's from the ammonia spike we've been dealing with and the things I've been doing to try to keep it from harming him.

Since I changed his tank to a planted tank a couple weeks ago the water has been consistently 0.25ppm ammonia. Also the ph keeps dropping rapidly and I think that is from the driftwood and IAL in the tank. It literally goes from 7.6 to 6.6 almost overnight and stays there...My base PH in my tap is 7.6 and I have no way of leveling it besides my API PH up and I haven't used it lately because I wanted the PH to stay lower so the ammonia won't do as much harm. I've been doing 20-80% water changes which makes the ammonia 0ppm for a shot time but it seems to go right back to 0.25 the next day.

I've been adding live bacteria via Fritz Turbo every day and Seachem Stability to help that bacteria thrive. I've been using Seachem Prime to condition the water. Now what puzzles me is it says it works almost instantly so I take that as it's saying I can immediately add my betta. I add the Prime, wait 10 min, put the water in the tank, add the Stability with the Fritz Turbo and run the filters for about 10 more minutes until all the water calms down so he's not swimming in little particles and then I reacclimate him and add him back...Not sure what I'm doing wrong. The temperature is consistently 80 degrees.

He's behaving so oddly. And nothing on the internet points to ONE thing and I'm so frustrated and sad and feel like nothing I'm doing is right.

He's very lethargic. Stays on his log or in the gravel. When he DOES swim up for air he's almost completely vertical and struggles to stay level. This is why I think it's the swim bladder. Apart from that he twitches like he's being tickled and sometimes will dart around narrowly avoiding the decor before becoming lethargic and resting again for a long period. He doesn't seem like he's gasping for air. I see his gills working but I wouldn't say it's gasping. And he also still has a very good appetite. It's so confusing. It's like he has a symptom of everything.

My best guess, and what I'm treating him for, is ammonia poisoning so I'm changing a percentage of the water daily for now and also swim bladder issues so I've given him Daphnia today and will fast him for 1-3 days and see how he does. There is also a bit of aquarium salt in the tank to help encourage his slime coat and all that jazz. I used less than what's required. Says 1 tablespoon for 5 gallons and I used 2 teaspoons. It's frustrating that there's not a whole lot of helpful info out there for what seems to be the most common pet store fish people buy...This poor guy...


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

I'm sorry for the misdiagnosis on my end, but I am glad to hear that you're sure it's not velvet. One less issue and a rough one at that.

Just a couple thoughts? And I'm sure you've thought through all this, so forgive me if you have!

Is there something in the tank by chance that you're missing that might be causing it?? That's a bit odd for it to shoot back up.

By some odd chance, have you possibly looked into seizures? Most sources say that the bettas won't survive, but I would guess they can be like people. Maybe he has a fish version of epilepsy? I know dogs and all can get it, and bettas have the correct nervous system and all to have them if you look at it biologically.
There are stories of people's bettas having seizures, but I'm not sure if there are any reports of it as an actual condition but I wouldn't doubt if it has happened. I'll look into this more though, it's been a while since I read up on this subject.
But I do know they can be caused by shock and infections.

Twitching/jerking can be a sign of parasites as well. Odd question, but, has his poop looked normal?

Ammonia does cause a lot of weird things. Most common is reduced appetite, lethargy, inflamed gills, burns, and inflamed/reddened eyes and fins. (You probably know this already)
I would try just treating that for now, and once that's under control we can try to figure out whatever symptoms he has left.
But yes, prime works instantly. It's safe to put him right back in if you want to.

Do you mind if I conduct research on Sundance's symptoms as well? I know you've researched a ton, but maybe between two of us there'd be some luck?

We'll figure this out, and even if we don't, we'll all keep trying until we can find something to help your baby.

Edit: Few typos lol


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> I'm sorry for the misdiagnosis on my end, but I am glad to hear that you're sure it's not velvet. One less issue and a rough one at that.
> 
> Just a couple thoughts? And I'm sure you've thought through all this, so forgive me if you have!
> 
> ...


I really don't blame you or anyone for anything. I come here for guidance but I always look into things myself first before deciding on treatments so I made this choice. No blame. Sure if you'd like to research as well that'd be a big help. Yea I've looked everywhere...I see a symptom he has for one thing but he ends up not having any other symptoms. Then another symptom here for something else and no other symptoms. I'm going to try to get some videos of his behavior and his coloring and all that. Who knows maybe it still is Velvet...And he still has the aquarium salt in his water. As for what could be causing it...Man...Idk...All he has in there is 3 java ferns, 1 Anubias, 1 baby tears a few assorted rocks I think dragon stone, some driftwood...But the substrate is Controsoil and it said it wouldn't mess with the water parameters and reviews said it was good so I have no idea. He's just one fish. It's crazy. His poo about a week ago WAS long and stringy so I thought...OK...Parasite...But yesterday I saw one that was more...Like clumpy? I'll include a picture of it at the very end. You tell me if that's normal because I honestly have no idea. It looks white but it's a medium brown just a bit darker than the substrate. The camera light just made it seem white.

So the ammonia spike happened when I took out everything and started over from a completely uncycled tank. His first one hadn't even finished cycling but it was so unnatural looking and I knew he was unhappy in it. I figured it wouldn't hurt to just restart as long as I kept adding the beneficial bacteria. I didn't have the Prime or Stability at the time so I used Crystal Geyser spring water which had a nice PH of 7.0 and of course everything else was 0...the next day almost his ammonia was 0.25ppm but he had no reaction at that time but I went out to buy Aqueon Ammonia Neutralizer. This stuff doesn't say how often to use it...Or how long it lasts...So I dosed it in. Also added his beneficial bacteria which I added half a cap every day per the instructions of another pet store owner.
She also told me to only change his water by 25% ONE time so I listened to her and did that. Over a week I added the bacteria every day and a bit of the ammonia neutralizer until I got my prime. At this time I was also treating him for his popeye with a third round of Kanaplex and on the LAST day of his kanaplex the twitching began. this was a bit over a week ago now. He now has the tap with Prime and Stability. I'm worried though because the Aquarium Co Op test strip shows the water is really hard...Idk how to fix that or if it's making him worse. My air stone just arrived today but wasn't processed at the post office so I have to wait to get it tomorrow so he'll have more oxygen. The twitching is pretty often now. Almost every few seconds when he's moving. Mostly he just lies on his log under his light and I can tell he's getting weaker and weaker. Still has a bear of an appetite and swims up to eat but when he swims it's almost vertical and he struggles to stay level. It makes me and my husband really sad to see. I'm running up to check on him every 30 min. All I can think to do right now is fast him and see if he improves.

I have a hospital tank in our bathroom Primed and ready in case I end up having to give him the copper if he DOES actually have velvet. There's just SO few pictures and the ones out there don't look like him. I took a video again last night...What do you think? He's also getting these odd light brown spots on his back you can see in some pictures but I don't know if that was there before or new at this point. I THINK they're new. Around his eyes have always been red also that gold spot you saw in earlier pictures actually shows blue in some of these so I think it was a trick of the light.
Also including a top down pic so you can see there's no pineconing so it can't be Dropsy. His poor left eye is so crazy swollen and has been since we got him. His right eye was too but for some reason that one went way down and he can look forward with it again but the left stayed bad even after 2 epsom salt baths. I stopped them because I heard sometimes they make things worse.

So this first picture LOOKS like theres so much gold and it MUST be velvet but I don't see this AT ALL with just a flashlight in a dark room...































It's weird you see so much more gold looking stuff with the phone camera than with just a flash light. With a flash light in a dark room no gold shows at all and I don't know if it's a filter on my phone trying to enhance him coloring and make him more vibrant or not. And heres the poo.









It was maybe...3 mm long.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Just got some more pictures using the flash light in the dark and my camera. Now see how you don't see gold. This is why I'm so hesitant to use the copper. I know how dangerous it can be if the PH drops or I give him too much...It's a scary thing...


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Happy to, if I find anything worthy of consideration I'll mention it. 

To lower pH, I think API has something out for that. 
You're doing all the natural recommendations there are on how to lower it already too. Driftwood and almond leaves and all. Which, a pH of 7.6 isn't bad at all, he'll be just fine with that level. 

I wonder if maybe his system was overloaded with meds and it's started effecting him in a way? Just a theory.. 
Not saying stop the meds, since he does have stuff that still needs treated.

It might be your phone, I know mine does that. If the same spots that were gold are showing blue at a different angle I think it's safe to assume that it's just iridescence. 

It's odd that his eye is still swollen even after all that.. I'm not sure what else to recommend to you sadly. I know some people use methylene blue for stuff, not sure if you'll be able to find it though. But since you've already done three rounds of Kanaplex and it might've become ineffective at this point?

For his SBD, you can try feeding part of an unshelled, thawed pea after a few days of fasting. Epsom salt baths will also help that. 
But it could also be from something with his water, not sure if we can pinpoint one thing right now like you said. 

I would guess possible ammonia burns for the spots, which honestly all you can do for that is what you're doing.. Water changes and the ammonia lock. 

I don't have anymore to suggest other than what you're already doing. I will research all this tomorrow and hopefully there will be something..


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Sorry for the spam...Just got this video so you can see how he's having trouble swimming up and floating. So that's why I'm suspecting the swim bladder due to water quality.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Happy to, if I find anything worthy of consideration I'll mention it.
> 
> To lower pH, I think API has something out for that.
> You're doing all the natural recommendations there are on how to lower it already too. Driftwood and almond leaves and all. Which, a pH of 7.6 isn't bad at all, he'll be just fine with that level.
> ...


Thank you...Yea...It's like everytime I STOP trying to do research I start getting antsy and then I'm like..Wait! Maybe I'll get a result if I word it THIS way or add THIS detail. It's very sad that there's not much news for the little guys. Poor guy.

Right now I'm giving him a small break from hardcore meds...The Kanaplex was 2 round back to back Nov 1st and the last round was right before he started twitching so he had a week break in between since I didn't want to overload him even though he took the treatment well. So now all he has is the aquarium salt and I'm trying to keep to temp between 80-82. I'm prepping the hospital tank. I read on some amazon review of Coppersafe that it's very dangerous to mix the copper safe with Prime or any other dechlorinators so you should wait 48 hours before adding the Coppersafe and the fish so the tank is primed and ready and in 2 days I'll go ahead and try it...OR I can try Maracyn 2 in a couple days and ONLY if he hasn't improved from the fasting. But at least it'll be ready for anything.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

No need to apologize, it's helpful, and not a bother at all.
I do agree, it does look like a (luckily but I know it doesn't seem like it) milder version of SBD.
Best option is continuing water changes and trying the fasting and if you have a pea on hand.

That's a good idea. Maybe he'll improve during the break.
You also may want to consider letting up on the aquarium salt soon for a short break since it becomes ineffective after a few weeks of continuous use.

Of course, and that's completely understandable. I've been there and I'll be doing it too. We'll figure something out, even if it's choices based off of hope and current knowledge.

Edit: I really should triple check my posts for typos.. lol


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> No need to apologize, it's helpful, and not a bother at all.
> I do agree, it does look like a (luckily but I know it doesn't seem like it) milder version of SBD.
> Best option is continuing water changes and trying the fasting and if you have a pea on hand.
> 
> ...



I speak fluent "typo" so it's all good lol...I'm reading this article right now. https://www.myaquariumclub.com/so-you-think-that-your-betta-has-velvet-20581.html Some of the non velvet bettas have coloring very close to my boy.

And as for the salt, I'll start diluting it out with upcoming water changes. Thank you.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Good to know if I accidentally miss one LOL

That's good, I guess we can safely assume it's iridescence? And looking at the better photos, I do agree. 
Something else that I just thought of. Your kiddo looks white in normal lighting when I glanced over other photos, and with the flashlight he has different shades of green and blue along with that gold. I do believe it's probably just iridescence.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Good to know if I accidentally miss one LOL
> 
> That's good, I guess we can safely assume it's iridescence? And looking at the better photos, I do agree.
> Something else that I just thought of. Your kiddo looks white in normal lighting when I glanced over other photos, and with the flashlight he has different shades of green and blue along with that gold. I do believe it's probably just iridescence.


That's what I'm hoping as well. Regardless for now he's gonna be fasted for 3 days then given a pea like you said. I've done it before with him when I thought he looked a tiny bit bloated and it worked. 

We'll just play it by ear. Thank you so much for your messages and hopium.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Alright and good, hopefully it will this time too. 

No problem!


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

A few things I found, not sure how helpful they'll be. 

The twitching can be due to the ammonia issue, it could also be severe stress. 

I also looked into if medications can cause issues with water parameters, because, maybe that's it. Since I know he's been treated with a lot of medications. 

Kanaplex won't interfere with a fully cycled tank but it will slow down the growth of beneficial bacteria in cycling tanks and cause them to cycle slower. Maybe that's why you're having issues with ammonia?

Aquarium salt won't affect any. 

Everything is still saying to get rid of ammonia by adding the beneficial bacteria, doing water changes, and vacuuming the gravel. So you're doing everything. Is there any difference to it?

Have you possibly looked into internal parasites? The twitching and lethargy just makes me think of that too possibly. I'm sure you've looked into that though. They can cause popeye too, don't know how common it is. 

This is all I've got for now.. If I find anything else I'll mention it. 
How's he doing?


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> A few things I found, not sure how helpful they'll be.
> 
> The twitching can be due to the ammonia issue, it could also be severe stress.
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking into it. The Kanaplex is the only medication he's been treated with so far. I thought maybe after all is said and done and we get the swim bladder under control I'd try Maracyn 2 for his popeye so that'll have given him a good break after the Kanaplex treatments. I think the swim bladder must be from the tank not having been cycled yet. His nitrates are at 5.0 so that must mean it's at least close to being cycled right? 10 means it's cycled? 

I checked his ammonia today and it's still at 0 but I'll check it again tonight because it usually takes 24 hours to come back or at least that's how it's been. Hopefully now that I've not used Kanaplex in over a week the bacteria can survive. I've still been adding it daily with a few more drops of Stability for good measure and just a drop or 2 of the Prime to keep that ammonia under control. This is his first full day of fasting so we shall see how he does. He is so far the same as yesterday. Chilling in the vacuumed substrate and swimming up for a gulp of air then sinking like a little stone. Poor guy.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Of course and alright. That's a good idea. 
I believe so, yep!

Hopefully, it's just the simple issue of bacteria and that it'll improve soon. 
I'm sorry he's not better but I'm glad to hear he's not worse. Poor baby


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Of course and alright. That's a good idea.
> I believe so, yep!
> 
> Hopefully, it's just the simple issue of bacteria and that it'll improve soon.
> I'm sorry he's not better but I'm glad to hear he's not worse. Poor baby


Yes definitely not worse so I'm holding onto that fact. 2 more days of fasting then it's pea time. Again thank you for your help, advice and well wishes.


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

I am tried to find something usefull, but i didn't have any luck.. i hope your baby starts feeling better soon... Its amazing how much you are trying to help him, you are such a great parent. Best of luck to your boy, i'm sorry i wasn't so helpfull.. 💕


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

betta4ever! said:


> I am tried to find something usefull, but i didn't have any luck.. i hope your baby starts feeling better soon... Its amazing how much you are trying to help him, you are such a great parent. Best of luck to your boy, i'm sorry i wasn't so helpfull.. 💕


Thank you for trying to help. It means a lot. 

Update today after yesterday, his first day of fasting, he is much the same HOWEVER I noticed he is not twitching as much. His ammonia is still holding at 0ppm and it has been that way since my last 80% water change which was 2 days ago so I think my ammonia issues are finally eradicated and now we can start just getting him better. 2 more days of fasting to go. 

Thank you again everyone. It's nice for me to see people who care so much about even the smallest of God's creatures.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

So glad that's been taken care of!
And yay to him being the tiniest bit better!!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> So glad that's been taken care of!
> And yay to him being the tiniest bit better!!


One thing I just noticed is those brown spots are a bit more prevalaint now... But I cannot find anything on scales turning brown or losing scales that match anything else he has. This picture was two days ago and you can see some brown spots on his back OR missing scales and the brown is his bare skin.









Here is today...It's definitely worse. 










Is he losing scales? Or is his true color coming in? It looks painful. I haven't SEEN him thrashing against any of the decor but he has been wedging himself into hiding spots under plants and under his log. Maybe he rubbed them off?


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

If his skin is showing then he's probably rubbing them off. 
I'm not inclined to think so since usually it's just a patch or two, not scattered like that. 

If they don't appear to be bothering him, I'd assume it's colour. 

Only other thing would be burns. But if he hasn't been on his heater and since his parameters are now in check and it's getting worse I don't think it would be that. 

Just keep watching, which I know you're doing!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> If his skin is showing then he's probably rubbing them off.
> I'm not inclined to think so since usually it's just a patch or two, not scattered like that.
> 
> If they don't appear to be bothering him, I'd assume it's colour.
> ...


Yea I started thinking like...Maybe the aquarium salt might be bugging him especially if his skin is raw so I did a 40% water change JUST now to start diluting it out like you advised. So I Primed the water, added stability and then some more beneficial bacteria and I boiled one of my indian almond leaves, ripped it up and put it in. I had taken his last one out a week ago because I thought it was making the ph drop too quickly but his ph is holding steady at 7.6 today so I figured that the leaf could only help if anything.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

It should for sure, even if we don't see it. 
Glad everything seems steady now!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Boiled, shelled, cut up and gave him the pea. He WAS interested in it at first trying to eat it but quickly got bored. Ate very very little of it...Like 2 small bites. The third piece he picked up he spit right back out, ate again and spit out again. I know they do this to make things smaller but it was already a quarter the size of his pellets.

Since he didn't eat much should I try Daphnia instead? I KNOW he loves Daphnia and it sinks to the bottom where he can easily feed.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Give it today, then you can try Daphnia tomorrow. He got a little in and that's good, hopefully it'll help.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Give it today, then you can try Daphnia tomorrow. He got a little in and that's good, hopefully it'll help.


I thought of something I hadn't before...After wracking my brain as to why he's acting this way, since his parameters are so good right now. I realized his current might be too strong. He has a medium sized sponge filter but it DOES make the water move even on the other side of the tank and I read that if they are raised in cups which I am certain he was, they don't build up the muscles needed to swim against even the gentlest of currents. I got his new air stone today and installed it on the sponge filter so the current is a LOT less but there is still good surface agitation to allow for the water to get oxygenated. He did swim up to the surface a few times more often than he was before. Maybe this little guy is just getting exhausted on top of having mild swim bladder issues.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

AbraCassandra said:


> I thought of something I hadn't before...After wracking my brain as to why he's acting this way, since his parameters are so good right now. I realized his current might be too strong. He has a medium sized sponge filter but it DOES make the water move even on the other side of the tank and I read that if they are raised in cups which I am certain he was, they don't build up the muscles needed to swim against even the gentlest of currents. I got his new air stone today and installed it on the sponge filter so the current is a LOT less but there is still good surface agitation to allow for the water to get oxygenated. He did swim up to the surface a few times more often than he was before. Maybe this little guy is just getting exhausted on top of having mild swim bladder issues.


Oh? That's a very good thought, I'm glad it has helped him!!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

No improvement today. When should I start feeding him like normal again? I'm getting his Maracyn 1 and 2 today and I'm going to start treating him with maracyn two first for the recommended dose time. I looked up how to dilute it to make doses for small tanks. I'm sure the poor guy is so hungry now. I'm just going to dose the whole tank. I have a teensy ramshorn snail and I THINK a malasian but I'm not sure. not a pond snail. Has a tiny green spiral shell. but none of the snails I've found match lol they hitch hiked in on his amazonian frogbit like a month ago and I've been keeping them in a tiny cup but ended up feeling bad so I added them to his tank to do as they will...Anyways I read maracyn two doesn't affect snails so that's good. I'd feel awful.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Poor baby. At least he's not worse. 

You can go ahead and start feeding him. I usually start at half of what they usually eat then work back up so I don't bloat them, but if you were to give him a full meal I don't think it'd hurt. I'm just overly cautious lol 

Sounds like one! I've never had one but they sound cool. 
Ramshorns are fun. They produce like crazy though so watch out for that if you don't want to overrun your tank. 

That's definitely good since you plan on keeping them. 
I hope this one helps Sundance!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Poor baby. At least he's not worse.
> 
> You can go ahead and start feeding him. I usually start at half of what they usually eat then work back up so I don't bloat them, but if you were to give him a full meal I don't think it'd hurt. I'm just overly cautious lol
> 
> ...


Yea that's why I didn't add them in the tank before. I didn't really understand them and thought it'd be terrifying having tons o snails but when I realized that he's already got a microcosmos of critters with him, I figured I'd at least give the snails a chance. They were starving to death in that little cup. Like I didn't want to kill them so I kept them in a cup with some duckweed and betta food. They survived over a month so I figure they earned their chance in the tank. Hilarious though I thought the swirly green one was dead. He hadn't moved for days but I figured if I put him in and he doesn't move I'll just take him out. Next day he was gone. Today I found him on the glass lol anyways. I have to test the water hardness for the maracyn 2. I read it doesn't work in hard water and the CRAPPPPPPY aquarium co op test strips lie to me. They'll say my PH is 6.4 but my API master kit says 7.0. They also said his ammonia was 0 ppm when the master test kit said 0.25ppm. The strips SAY the water hardness is 300. But I'mma test with the API water hardness test vials that are coming with the maracyn today.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Gave him a couple Fluval Bug Bite flakes. I like them because they have good protein in em and they get soaked and sink fast since they're thin flakes. I ate them with gusto. At least he still has an appetite even though he didn't want to swim to the surface. I used my aquascape tweezers to feed him.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

That's true. And worst comes to worse there's always assassin snails. (Though there's cons with those too) 
Something that's helped me though is removing the egg cases when I find them. And I just wash them down the drain.. Feel kinda bad but it stops over population...

Yeah, test strips are often unreliable from what I've heard from several other people as well. 

(Bug bites brand is awesome) I'm glad he ate!!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Ok I have gotten the maracyn two, tested his water hardness, KH is between 0-50ppm and GH is between 50-100 so I hope that’s alright for a betta. The first dose of maracyn two which is supposed to be a double dose is in. I added one packet which is for 10 gallons so for a 5 gallon that’s a double dose. Tomorrow I will follow the tutorial on turning a packet into 10 separate doses so one dose per gallon and use 5 one gallon doses a day for the next 4 days then a 25% water change. He’s very animated right now but doesn’t seem stressed. Maybe he just notices a difference In his world. praying for improvement tomorrow.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Should be alright. 

Okay, I'm glad you found some! Praying for that as well!!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Should be alright.
> 
> Okay, I'm glad you found some! Praying for that as well!!


So he was gasping for air pretty bad then I read that maracyn 2 depletes the oxygen a bit so I added his second (hospital tank) sponge filter on the other side of his tank for double the aeration. Good lord this little guy has me running back and forth. It makes a bit more of a current in there but he really needs more oxygen. 

Here's a video of the gasping and him rushing to get air even though it's hard to swim. You can see near the end after he comes back down how bad he's panting.. Hopefully the second filter is enough to aerate. He REALLY needs these meds...Poor little dude.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Aw, poor baby. 

That should help. 
Do you have something you could put near the top of the surface that he can rest on by chance? And make it easier for him to get air?


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Aw, poor baby.
> 
> That should help.
> Do you have something you could put near the top of the surface that he can rest on by chance? And make it easier for him to get air?


Just the plants that are in there : ( I thought about lowering the water level but then the filter tubes will be out of the water and the heater will no longer be submerged. He's only been wanting to rest on the substrate anyways though. He used to rest on the big log or the anubias but hasn't in a while since getting ill


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

I was just thinking of maybe a betta hammock leaf to place up at the top for him. But if he just wants to stick to his favourite spot in the substrate, whatever makes him happy


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> I was just thinking of maybe a betta hammock leaf to place up at the top for him. But if he just wants to stick to his favourite spot in the substrate, whatever makes him happy


I'm sad I tossed the one he had when I switched his tank to all real plants : ( I'll buy him a new one. I don't think he ever used it but he'll have the option. Oh and hey! I went up to check on him and he's not panting anymore. Normal breathing now so the aeration helped. Hopefully tomorrow he'll show a tiny improvement.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

That's great!! I hope he does too.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Followed your advice and lowered the water after his 5 gallon dose was in there. Hope I didn't screw anything up. I guess now he'll need 3 gallon doses.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Alright. Hope that helps 

How's he doing today?


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Alright. Hope that helps
> 
> How's he doing today?


Much the same behavior wise and swimming wise...however I soaked 5 pellets in some garlicguard and once they were soft I squished them with the tweezers so they sunk down to him and he gobbled them with much enthusiasm. Still has a great appetite so I still have great hope.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

So I think Sundance might happen to be a girl... Not 100% certain but the ovipositor IS white like pictures I've seen. And looking at the pic in my profile of when Sundance wasn't doing badly, the body shape is close to elephant ear female bettas. It'd also explain the fins not growing very long so far and the pale coloring...Any other ways I can find out if he's a she?


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

So white Ovipositor and possible eggs? He/she is kinda see through so now I'm wondering is Sundance an egg bound girl?? Pics...I accidentally put a repeat and can't delete it on phone.


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

Ι think she has an egg spot... so IMO she is a female.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

So the white bit sticking out is the best way to tell males from females, finnage can also be used but isn't as reliable always. 

But yeah.. I would believe Sundance is actually a girl since your kiddos got an eggspot. 

How's Sundance doing today?


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> So the white bit sticking out is the best way to tell males from females, finnage can also be used but isn't as reliable always.
> 
> But yeah.. I would believe Sundance is actually a girl since your kiddos got an eggspot.
> 
> How's Sundance doing today?


Much the same. I’m letting some bloodworms defrost for Sunny. Sigh…now I have to worry about eggbinding  I mean she’s still trying to be kinda active. She moves around a lot. Mostly “waddling“ around on the floor but she’s never in the same spot when I look at her. Still seems to have trouble swimming upwards. Like she fights against sinking hard. Like she’ll swim up up down down down up up up down down and by the time she manages to get some air she’ll be panting at the bottom. And when she’s laying on the substrate she cannot keep herself I-right and keeps tilting to the side. Poor thing…I’m doing all I can so I hope she pulls through. It’s sad when she gets excited to see me and waddle swims to where I am and can’t keep upright.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

That's better than being worse, right? 

Poor thing.. I hope that gets better, but even if it doesn't she can still lead a happy life.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> That's better than being worse, right?
> 
> Poor thing.. I hope that gets better, but even if it doesn't she can still lead a happy life.


As happy as I could have made it knowing what I knew at the time. If she doesn't respond to maracyn 2 I can do the 25% water change and start trying the maracyn one. It's doses the same way and you CAN use them both at the same time but I didn't want to overload her. I'll keep trying until she stops trying.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

That's true, and alright.

You'll want to take breaks here and there since too much medications can cause stress. And could make issues worse. 

Still hoping for the best 🙂


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> That's true, and alright.
> 
> You'll want to take breaks here and there since too much medications can cause stress. And could make issues worse.
> 
> Still hoping for the best 🙂


Thank you and same. I'm going to try to stop spamming this thread and try to just give one daily update lol


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

It's not a bother to me if you do, but up to you 🙂

And okay!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Well before I stop spamming as much. I just fed her and here's the video. 



 you can see her lack of energy but definitely not her lack of appetite so that's a good sign right?


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Definitely a good sign. 

Looks like more of her colour is coming in too!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

No change today. 4th dose of maracyn 2 is in. Tomorrow is the last day before a 25% water change and then I’ll try the maracyn one.

parameters are
PH 7.6
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
and somehow my nitrates have dropped down to 0ppm again. They were 5ppm. I’m guessing the lack of light has made my plants unhappy and not want to produce the nitrates. However maracyn 2 at least doesn’t work as well in light and needs dark. Hopefully maracyn one can have the light again.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

How's she doing today?


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> How's she doing today?


She's actually showing a bit of improvement! Having less trouble swimming upwards and even my husband noticed she was super active. When he got up this morning he was like "Hey Fish Girl! Oh wow she swam up to me!" then he watched as I fed her her garlic soaked pellets and commented on her having a really good appetite.

Now I'm kinda torn between giving her another round of the maracyn two like it recommend if the fish shows any signs of improvement OR starting a round of maracyn one to see if it works better and so she can have her light back on. Sunday is going to be the 6th day and 25% water change day.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Yay to improvement! That's great!!

Is she bothered without her light on? If she isn't maybe do the second round of this variety? 
Just a thought!


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> Yay to improvement! That's great!!
> 
> Is she bothered without her light on? If she isn't maybe do the second round of this variety?
> Just a thought!


It doesn't SEEM like she is...She's either not distressed or too tired to show distress. I was watching her a bit ago and she's having a lot less trouble swimming up for air. You saw the video right? How she'd fight against sinking to swim upwards? She's not fighting now. When she stops moving her fins she doesn't sink like a stone back down just floats in place. Maybe I will do a second round. I just wish her left eye would improve. When I got her both her eyes were bugged out and now her right one is totally fine and she can see in front of her face again but the left is horrid. I know the maracyn one helps with that. She still twitches so idk. Maybe another round of the two then the one after that for that popeye and possible external parasites that could be bothering her.

I take full responsibility for the twitching and such. Anything that happened after saving her. I was a noob and trusted the words of pet shop owners when I should have done research online. I did not treat any of the plants I bought for her. I didn't treat the driftwood by boiling either. So I probably allowed something to get in there with her without the knowledge to know better. See the pet store guy said I don't have to treat the plants because they wouldn't have any hitch hikers and I trusted him. Now there's the little snails I decided to let live in there and detritus worms, seed shrimp, limpits etc. I don't mind them but obviously what he said wasn't true. Where I bought the driftwood the guy said to boil it only if it doesn't sink. He didn't say boil it to kill any possible parasites or anything. ONLY if it didn't sink. It sunk so I didn't bother -_- if I only knew then what I know now, she probably wouldn't be this bad. So the guilt kinda sucks. I don't want her to be a guinea pig to my learning curves you know? I'm just hoping I can get her better so she can thrive and be happy.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

I did see it. I'm so glad to hear that's cleared up!! 

Try not to blame yourself too much. We learn as we go and what matters is realizing when we're learning something. 
I wouldn't call her your guinea pig, is she your first one? Yes. But you also are researching everything and you came here for advice instead of winging it on your own or just randomly trying things and hoping it helps. 

For the plants. 
I have never heard of treating the plants before hand. But I've also only ever bought them from the little singular packages from the store, or online from a good source. 
I avoid getting plants from community tanks for the reasons that unfortunately you found out the hard way.. Unless you bought them from the little packages? 
And the driftwood, the boiling is usually done to release tannins from the wood. Because some people don't like the darker water driftwood will cause. I've never heard of it being used to get rid of possible parasites though. Interesting. I'll research that one too. 

I'm rambling, sorry. 
My point is, don't feel guilty. You have done everything and more for Sundance. Sundance wouldn't be here without you guys. 
And I would believe she is happy. She's coming and greeting you? That's a happy little baby. 
You've fought for her and thats what counts. 
I can't say this about many first time owners I've met, but I'm glad Sundance found a home with guys. She's had, and does have, a great fighting chance. 
Don't feel guilty. Things happen and we all make mistakes.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> I did see it. I'm so glad to hear that's cleared up!!
> 
> Try not to blame yourself too much. We learn as we go and what matters is realizing when we're learning something.
> I wouldn't call her your guinea pig, is she your first one? Yes. But you also are researching everything and you came here for advice instead of winging it on your own or just randomly trying things and hoping it helps.
> ...


Thank you. Here's a video of her having an easier time swimming today. Still an odd angle but she's floating easier and not struggling at all to not sink. She does do some flashing a few times so I tested the water after the video and all is well although her ph dropped from 7.6 yesterday to 6.6 today. Odd. Unless my master kit is wrong. Sometimes it'll give me different results with the ph...Everything else is 0ppm


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

I did her 25% water change and went ahead and put the water level back up to it's normal height about two inches down from the top. She's doing so much better today. Ate her pellets for the day, Swimming all over the place, no problems floating at all. She still swims a bit odd and of course the popeye is still an issue. Today I'm letting her enjoy the clean fresh water tonight and tomorrow we'll start the Maracyn One. I think I'll have more luck with it as it seems more that she has the symptoms it fights against. 

"*Provides relief from bacterial infections such as body fungus, bacterial gill disease and popeye. Also helpful against mouth fungus, open lesions, hemorrhagic septicemia, and slime disease.* Symptoms of possible bacterial infection can include clamped fins, swollen eyes, heavy or rapid breathing, patchy coloration, change in swimming behavior or corner-hiding. " 

But as far as floating and not sinking like a rock she's doing awesome. So maybe she did have a bit of SBD but it seems mostly cleared up.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

That's great!! 

Hopefully this one will clear everything else up.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Eridanus said:


> That's great!!
> 
> Hopefully this one will clear everything else up.


Hopefully! I actually messaged Fritz and confirmed that Maracyn one is not light sensitive like Maracyn Two is and they said it isn't and we can leave the lights on so yay for the plants. First dose is in and it's very foamy. I think she thinks it's a giant glorious bubble nest. Here's her progress video. 




Another thing I decided to do is feed her a teensy bit more but space out feedings. I was doing 4 soaked pellets in the morning and 4 soaked pellets at night. But now I'm doing 3 at 9am when we wake up, 3 around 3pm or maybe 12pm, 3 more before her light goes out at 9pm. So instead of 8 pellets a day it'll be 9. I've seen many mixed opinions on feeding amounts. One person somewhere in the forum does 12 a day while others do 6 a day so I think 9 a day is a nice middle ground. I think Sunday will be her fasting day and maybe Friday will be the bloodworm day. Lol idk. I'm just happy she's improving.

About them almond leaves...I screwed up last night because I wanted to make her the tea with them so I was boiling them for like 30 minutes then I realized...I'm boiling them in a metal pot...And that is probably leeching toxic metals into the tea....So I just got some new ones, rinsed em off and tossed em in the tank. Also in the video I said "hopefully the Maracyn two will help" I meant just Maracyn.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Yeah, there is a lot of debate on what to feed them. Just stick to what works for you guys. 
The only issue I often see is that sometimes people under feed and cause malnutrition, but that won't happen with her. 

Tossing in the tank works just fine too, I have to do that with mine. 

She looks so much better!! Yay!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

So I am not sure how I missed this thread for so long but she appears to be doing better so I'm happy about that. I do believe that she had velvet and pop eye but both seem to be going in the right direction. Swim bladder is debatable but in my opinion she was just weak. I wouldn't worry about the ph levels, bettas can adapt to a wide range of ph, it's a sudden fluctuation that causes them issue. The reason your nitrites are showing zero is that meds like kanaplex will crash your cycle. You will need to recycle your tank with her in it, which is perfectly safe if you follow this tutorial.








CYCLING: the two-sentence tutorial


Change half the water when either ammonia or nitrite approach 0.50ppm (alternately, 25% at 0.25ppm), or weekly, whichever comes first. Add Seachem Prime at 2-drops per gallon of tank size every day until cycled. That’s all you have to do. You can stop reading now. But there’s a lot of...




www.bettafish.com


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

Yay! She looks so much better!! I'm so happy for her!😁


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

BettaloverSara said:


> So I am not sure how I missed this thread for so long but she appears to be doing better so I'm happy about that. I do believe that she had velvet and pop eye but both seem to be going in the right direction. Swim bladder is debatable but in my opinion she was just weak. I wouldn't worry about the ph levels, bettas can adapt to a wide range of ph, it's a sudden fluctuation that causes them issue. The reason your nitrites are showing zero is that meds like kanaplex will crash your cycle. You will need to recycle your tank with her in it, which is perfectly safe if you follow this tutorial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah thank you for the advice! I still have the coppersafe and a hospital tank in case the velvet isn't gone. I've been adding the fritz turbo every day with stability to keep the cycle going and so far the ammonia has stayed 0ppm for the last two weeks. Since I am doing a round of Maracyn I'm checking every single day though just in case.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

I went ahead and didmy parameter test for the day. Ammonia and nitrites at 0ppm, my ph test seems to like giving me a diff result every time I do it and idk why lol the drops are all the same amount. So I'll say it's between 7.0 to 7.6. And it does seem my nitrates built up a tiny bit again. Not quite 5.0 ppm but definitely not 0 now.


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## AbraCassandra (Oct 27, 2021)

Update for today, Thursday Dec 9th. She is doing amazingly better you guys. Seems like all the different things have legit brought her back to life. Here is a video I took just 30 minutes ago. She is swimming straight now, SUPER alert and my goodness hungry...I'm feeding her 9 pellets soaked in either GarlicGuard or her tank water. 3 morning 3 noon and 3 at night. and she's just super active. Nothing like just a week or two ago. I'm glad I didn't give up and I kept fighting for her. I think she's going to be OK. I'll worry about her eye a bit later. I'm thinking the popeye itself is gone but the eye is permanently damaged. I noticed she doesn't see well out of it so when I feed I drop the pellets on her right side and she can catch them very quickly before they sink. 







Thanks to all who kept up with this thread. I think I may let it rest now. Or if something new pops up I'll start a new thread. I'm gonna keep my eye on her color changes just in case she does have velvet though, rest assured. I watch her so often I notice every little thing.


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## Eridanus (Jul 1, 2021)

Oh that's great!!! Yay Sundance!! And yay you!!


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## betta4ever! (Oct 5, 2021)

Thats great!! I know bettas are fighters, but her progress is realy unbelievable!! Glad she is getting better! You are taking amazing care of her, she is so lucky to have you!😊😊


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