# Sudden dropsy and death- Need help.



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Well, I have now lost two fish from this unidentified disease and it is really beginning to make me angry. What happens is the fish acts lethargic for a day or two, and then I find them the next day, dropsyed and dead. My care is good, I don't really feed anything that could introduce parasites (except for the occasional frozen brine shrimp but I mass fed them to breeders with no problems). Can someone help me? I will be devastated if I lose anymore, the two I have lost have been two of my favorites. 

So, my question is, what can I do to prevent this and what should I do if anyone else comes down with it? Also, if someone has any idea on the diagnosis, that would be greatly appreciated. 

Housing 
What size is your tank? 10g divided three ways/29g sorority
What temperature is your tank? 82/80
Does your tank have a filter? Yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? Divided with two other bettas/Six other females and four guppies.

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? New life spectrum
How often do you feed your betta fish? Twice a day, 4 pellets each time/Twice a day, enough to feed everyone (but not to much)

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Twice a week/once a week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?50%/25%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Water conditioner

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters? Nope.

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Dropsy
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Lethargy
When did you start noticing the symptoms? Two days before death/One day before death
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Haven't- it moves to fast.
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No.
How old is your fish (approximately)? 7 months/5 months


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## Mashiro (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm sorry I can't help you, but I can tell you that I had a guppy population in my 5g tank do the exact same thing and die overnight with a dropsy-like appearance. All I can say is it may be related to the guppies?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I doubt it is related to the guppies... I have had them all for months without issue. I quarantine everything that comes into the house for at least two weeks.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I am absolutely TERRIFIED that this could be mycobacterium... I think I would cry. I messaged Sakura and am going to try to contact BasementBettas... I really hope it is less serious.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I would lower the temp to 77F or so. (Bacteria multiply faster at higher temps.) 

What antibiotics/medications do you have on hand? Do you have Kanaplex?

Another person you can contact is Coppermoon. She's another breeder who dealt with Myco.

Take a look at two threads that Xaltd1 started. The symptoms sound similar. So far, she hasn't found a cure, but there might be some info on the threads that is useful for you. 
1) Another "Sulk" case...
2) "Betta Sulk" AGAIN

I'm sorry. I know you take excellent care of them. Hopefully, you can figure out what's going on. :-(


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Found some more info that may help:

Causes of Dropsy Symptoms - What are the causes of the symptoms of dropsy?

From the beginning of the article:

_"In North American ponds, the most common cause of dropsy is internal bacterial infection. Several bacterial diseases — including aeromonad disease (Aeromonas hydrophila), pseudomonad septicemia (Pseudomonas fluorescens) and vibriosis (Vibrio anguillarum) — can result in dropsy. To the best of my knowledge, studies of animals involved in outbreaks of disease among koi on the east and west coasts of the United States all revealed one of these bacterial causes....

If antibiotics are used, oral or injected administration is absolutely required. Adding drugs to the backyard pond water will not have any therapeutic effect. Oxytetracycline seems to have the broadest application of the drugs readily available to the hobbyist. When injected or fed at 75 milligrams of drug per kilogram of fish per day, for 10 days, it has proven very effective. Unqualified hobbyists should never attempt to inject medications. A medicated feed combination of ormetroprim and sulfadimethoxine (sold under the trade name of Romet-30) has been quite successful in halting devastating outbreaks of aeromonad disease among koi....."_


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you... Was hoping you would post. I'm contacting a bunch of people about it. I do not have kanaplex but I can get some tomorrow easily.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm thinking Kanaplex because it's broad spectrum, and you can soak pellets in it so they ingest it. (Going with the idea that it's an internal bacterial infection for now.)

I'll keep researching though. I want to look into Romet and Oxytetracycline, too.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Should I try a kanaplex medicated feeding?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Since dropsy indicates an internal issue... I would go with Kanaplex medicated feeding since it may be an internal bacterial infection..... 

(Let's not talk about myco yet... There's no cure for it, so let's try ruling out other stuff first.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm still thinking Kanaplex medicated feed, but I'm going to include some info about oxytetracycline and Romet below, in case someone suggest using them:

Oxytetracycline is sold by several distributors online.
Romet is available through Aquatic Health Resources: http://www.aquatichealthresources.com/

Some additional info about both:
_"Oxytetracycline (OTC) is a broad-spectrum antibiotic with bacteriostatic properties that is active against a wide variety of gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria.... [It] can be administered internally or parenterally with good tissue distribution..."_
The Efficacy of [email protected] 200 for Fish...

_"Currently, three antimicrobials are approved to treat various bacterial diseases in fish – oxytetracycline, sulfadimethoxine/ormetoprim, and florfenicol. All are administered as medicated feed. Oxytetracycline (Terramycin® 100 for Fish) and sulfadimethoxine/ormetoprim (Romet® 30) are approved for over-the-counter use."_

_Romet dosage: 50 mg/kg bodyweight. Feed for 5 to10 days._
Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Can those be used on bettas?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I don't see bettas mentioned specifically, but all of the articles I cited deal with using it for "ornamental fish." Both oxytetracline and Romet have been approved by the US FDA as an over-the-counter antibiotic treatment in ornamental fish. 

I would still try the Kanaplex medicated food first, especially if you're able to get a hold of Kanaplex pretty easily. 

Also, Kanaplex is a newer antibiotic. Generally, the newer the antibiotic, the fewer the bacteria that's resistant to it.

Hopefully, Sakura, Basement Bettas or Coppermoon will offer some advice soon.....


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Pm'ed all of those people already... Thank you so much for your help though. What are the chances that this is myco and not just a different bacterial infection?


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm sorry for your losses, Matt . I hope you get it figured out soon.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I think you have to treat as if it's an infection that is treatable. Myco isn't treatable, so there's no point in considering it right now. 

Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure that it's myco is to send the body to a lab for testing. (The fish has to be cut open and examined.) So that's not helpful to you right now, either..... Plus, if a lab analysis reveals that it's myco, there's still no treatment. When Basement Bettas and Coppermoon learned they were dealing with myco, they had to destroy their fish, and clean out their fish rooms. :-(

Most infections that cause dropsy will either be bacterial, viral or parasitical. So there are other causes of dropsy besides myco. And I think that for now, the best way to start is by looking into those....

One of the articles said that viral dropsy is rare in North America. It also said that bacterial causes are the most common. So I figure that bacterial is a good place to start...

And since it's an internal issue, it makes sense that a medicated feed is the best way to go. Kanaplex, Romet or Oxytetracyline can all be fed.... The question is, which one is the best to try first? Since you can get a hold of Kanaplex, and it's a good wide-spectrum antibiotic which we know is safe for bettas, this may be the one to try first....


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I found this on the Seachem website. Someone asked how to use Kanaplex for fin rot so they needed the external application, but it has good general info about dosing:

_"Thank you for using Kanaplex and for your question regarding its use. Kanaplex is very effective antibiotic proven to treat many fungal and bacterial infections. Kanaplex can be utilized in two different manners, depending upon the needs of individual fish. For example, if a fish is exhibiting symptoms of an internal bacterial infection, such as hemorrhagic septicemia, then Kanaplex can be mixed with food to ensure that the medication in internalized. 

Kanaplex is also quite effective in treating external bacterial infections and in cases where food is refused. Because Kanaplex is very water soluble and easily absorbed through the gills, dosing it directly to the water is equally as effective. In your case, dosing the medication directly to the water should be sufficient. Best of luck to you!"_
http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3953


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you so much. Another boy has gone lethargic. I will be treating everyone with kanaplex tomorrow, symptoms or not...


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Ugh. I'm sorry..... :-(

So this is the third time? Was he in the same tank as the other two?

Is everyone quarantined?

I don't know much about filters, so this may be off-base, but could there be something bacterial going on in the filter?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Third time, yes. This boy was in the same tank as the second one who passed but not in the same tank as the girl. This tank was cycling (I was doing a very careful fish in cycle), but I don't think that is it seeing as the girl got sick and she lives in a tank that has been running and cycled for four years. Unfortunately, I cannot qt everyone at the time but tomorrow if I can find enough jars I can...


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> Third time, yes. This boy was in the same tank as the second one who passed but not in the same tank as the girl. This tank was cycling (I was doing a very careful fish in cycle), but I don't think that is it seeing as the girl got sick and she lives in a tank that has been running and cycled for four years. Unfortunately, I cannot qt everyone at the time but tomorrow if I can find enough jars I can...


Good luck Matt cheering for you.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks CJ. Before I go to bed (if I don't, I wont be able to fo anything tommorow!) I have one more thing to add- when the fish dies its "Beard" pops out as if it were flaring, and it stays like that.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Dropsy is one of the results of mycos. You need a lab test to know for sure. Or you can open them up and look for the cysts. But you should always fear the worst and take steps to stop it right then and there.. knowing if it is NOT the worst, you are still taking care of everything under the worst. Lots of things could cause what you have. But if you want to face the mycos issue.. here is my opinion on it.

Most know I have a no tolerance policy for sick fish in my house. I lost too many and have too great an exposure. Mycos is in the trade more than people know or want to admit. And if you have fish you need to have good bio-security habits now.

You can not cure it. I do not care what you read on the web, don't care what someone says might work. I have dealt with the leading pathologist on the subject.. his life work is mycobacteria. I think his opinion on the matter trumps wikipedia or any one elses here. And he says THERE IS NO CURE. Even people require 9-12 months of treatment with a variety of drugs. Large research facilities are told to destroy EVERYTHING. Nuke and restart. Sorry. No nice way to put this.

If I were you, I'd get something that will kill the mycos. I use Pro-tech RTU.

http://www.healthykin.com/showprodu...tant-cleaner&gclid=CKrnwt7LjrcCFYef4AodZRIAiA

Might want to Google and see where you can get best price as I just took the first link that popped up. I get mine local. Talk to your local vet and see if they may have something that will work. My stuff has to stay wet 5 minutes. So I set a timer. EVERYTHING.. and I mean everything gets sprayed. Nets, hoses, containers, thermometers, sponge filters, filter media.. and my hands. It takes me forever to work in the fish room as there now is nuke time. Everything gets sprayed, I wait the 5 minutes, rinse then dip in a bleach solution to remove the residue from that RTU. Then stuff is rinsed again. Sponge filters go through a PP solution first for several times as it will eat up the organics in the sponge before I treat for the bacteria.

I would start to treat everything you have and and avoid any cross contamination. Set what these other fish have been in or stuff used with them way aside, until you can get something to kill the mycos. Could we have internal parasites or something minor going on? Yes.. but there is a real possibility you may have more. Once fish dead, it happens. Two fish with similar symptoms and I get concerned. Better safe and the stuff skilled out now as it is rearing its ugly head then allow it to get in nooks and crannies and always be with you.

If you want to throw meds at the fish, you may get some response even if the fish have mycos as there are often secondary things going on with the weakened fish. Cooler temps slow the progression of the disease, but if you have it, you have it. This will have to be your decision as mine is you look off, you get pulled to another part of the house. You don't look better in a day or two and you are clove oiled and land filled. Period. Again, my stakes are higher and I already went through this.

Check out the pictures of what I had.. it is a different strain of what is commonly discusses on the net.

http://bettasource.com/more-betta/disease-id-treatment/photos-of-mycobacteria/

then for more info on the mycos.. see here
http://bettasource.com/more-betta/disease-id-treatment/mycobacteria/ 


There are links at the bottom to more technical articles.

I personally will always treat my fishroom like mycos is lurking around the corner. I am hearing some reports of imports coming in with it now. So use care, don't buy sick fish and keep good bio-security in place. Good luck and sorry to hear about what you are facing.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Matt, sorry for the late reply.

Another possibility is hexamita parasites, which can also cause dropsy symptoms. I don't think you have a mycos problem because mycos typically does not cause dropsy symptoms; rather you will experience the opposite: wasting over a long period of time.

My best advice for you is obtain that Kanaplex and get General Cure as well. You will want to treat using both. If you are going to medicate food, medicate it with the General Cure because if this is hexamita, you'll want the metronidazole in the General Cure going into the system, not the Kanaplex. 

You can use the sterilization suggestions Basement Bettas suggested but again, I don't think this is a mycos problem. The symptoms are not pointing in that direction.


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## WolfHhowling (Apr 10, 2013)

I am going to make a suggestion... 

This is based off of what I know and there cousins gouramis and betta's themselves. Any way, and this is true with Gourami's as it is in any fish.

( I would get the test kit for you water)

Anyway, if there is an irritant in the water and say a species of fish is more tolerant while the other isn't the other will come down with dropsy and soon all non tolerant fish will do the same. They usually will die of this rather quickly, to slow and painful deaths. Some individuals might be more tolerant so on and so forth.

The other option, is bad breeding. Dwarf Gouramis get incurable dropsy. It eventually kills them. This is from way to many Gouramis are inbreed this way to color intensify the fish, places like walmart do not regulate where they get them from, and so these fish are overly interbreed and thus develop problems like kidney failure.

In a larger fish like a dwarf Gourami kidney failure with the use of salt will kill them in a week or two.

With no treatment and a smaller body maybe 24 hours.


Another thing I know to be true, thailand betta's are less hardy than ones bred in Mexico or the Us. The reason for this is rather simple. Thailand is closer to their natural habitat ware Mexico and the Us are not. Therefore they are use to being in less then favorable conditions ( as far as being in there natural habitat goes). So an irritant will most likely effect them first.

As seeing two of your betta's died around the same time, I wouldn't chalk it up to bad breeding.

However if it doesn't come up as a Parasite/disease/ bacterial/fungal infection, I would go with the irritant in the water.

Irritants in the water other than classic nitrates and ammonia, Metals, such as Lead, Iron, copper, inc. Decaying matter such as thread, dies inc. 


Thats what I know from that subject. 

But honestly if you want to really know, I think it hast to do Nothing I have listed. If none of what the above helps or what not. Then I would look at what I just said.

Good luck with your betta's I hope the best for them.

( I had to put down my female dwarf Gourami because she got dropsy due to kidney failure from interbreeding, this is all the info I came up with when I researched why it only ever effected one fish.)


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Treat for the hex.. that is common for bettas. Get medicine in their food. But treat like you have mycos and follow the bio-security protocalls. if they get better, great. If they do not you have taken steps to wall off and destroy what may be lurking. I am by no means for destroying fish without giving them a chance. Just not in my fish room. Hope and treat for the best, but start now to protect from the worst. No gravel, plants or anything else that may harbor mycos till you get the fish better.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks to all of you. I am hoping for the best but am preparing for the worst and until I can actually get a positive ID practicing bio security like it is myco...

I got the kanaplex but they did not have general cure... I can likely get it tommorow though. For the kanaplex it says to mix it in with frozen food and then feed, can I make a solution and soak pellets in it? If so, how?

Edit: Sakura, there are cases of myco that kills within twenty four hours, correct? Like. M. Triplex? 

And Jackson, the boy who went lethargic yesterday, is now less lethargic but it looks like he has fin rot that is progressing fast.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Matt, 1 scoop of Kanaplex per 5 gallons. Don't medicate food with it. Save that for the General Cure.

I don't know about m. triplex. I've only heard it mentioned here and not in any other scientific resources so I can't really speak on that. Likely any fish who died within 24 hours was killed more by a combination of having a system that had been weakened by a lengthy battle with mycos and more virulent secondary bacterial infections like columnaris and aeronomas. In cases like that, I highly doubt it was the mycos acting alone as every source I've read so far lists mycos as being a more lingering, lengthy disease.

Use the Kanaplex on the boy with fin rot as well.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Ok thanks. If I have any more die I will take pics... Essentially, the entire body (not just the stomach) bloats and pinecones, then they are dead and the "beard" pops out. 
I'm assuming that whatever they have they have had it for some time now and when it goes systemic is when they actually show symptoms but by then it is to late. This doesn't really sound like hexamita to me, they would usually have white feces and waste away I thought?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hexamita can cause dropsy symptoms, either by the sheer load of parasites or perhaps as a result of peritonitis. White poo may accompany it but not always, not like with other internal parasites.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

The triplex can grow and be around for months and the fish off just a little. It like other mycos gets established in the entire fish. If it happens to get a good foothold in the kidneys I think you get the bloating. But I had many that just got off and lost color. Eventually saw the fuzzy patched develop and the fish lived like that for a long time. But it eventually kill them. There are more lethal strains that can kill very quick. Triplex is not like that. So you can have it in the fish and not see anything for a long while.. and in the mean time it is growing and being passed. By the time you see it you have contaminated a lot. Bio-security.


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## themountain (May 9, 2013)

Iam afraid you can´t do anything for dropsy fish...they are death candidates because in most of the cases their kidneys fail ...sorry


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## Aahnay (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is more info of myco. I am thinking i may have this too, i recently lost 2 female after they pineconed.

The last one in that tank is showing the beginning signs, I took one out almost 2 weeks ago, put in qt. She doesnt eat, looks fine, not skinny, etc etc. Sometimes i think i see something on the scale edges. Not sharp as i remember them to be.

About a month ago, i removed a femal from this main tank because she was too agreesive. She is eating, but not as much as i remember her eating. I dont see any signs on her, except she got 4 tiny spots on her side about a week ago. 

The symtoms of the two that passed: Nothing. First one, i noticed swimming back and forth and then hit the end of the aquairium. I got close and saw the scales lifted. Took her out, she died 24 hrs later.

The second one, I watched a lot, as she was the shy one, and would loose color when chased. Only two left in the tank at this point, and after watching here for about a 3 days and she only stayed in one place , going up and down for food and air, I took her out.

Thats when i saw her scales lifted too. She had white poo hanging off, and some white stuff on her.. which i took off easily. I believe the white stuff was from a dead snail, that i found under the filter next to her spot.

OMG. I was so freaked out. I did a wc on the main tank, now just containing 3 snails and one female betta. The female i took out, in qt. Lasted for 4 days. She spend most time in that 3 point position, head down, the last day. But swam for air etc. I did not feed her. Just kept her water clean.

After reading the above url, im terrified. All fish but one came from walmart, the one, who hasnt eaten for at least 2 weeks, in qt was a breeder buy.

The one female in the 10g tank left, has stopped eating now too, well she eats, spits it out.. tries again. After about 3 tries, swims away. She looks normal to me, except perhaps her chin may be different color. She is dark blu/black with read and blue on fins.

I just cant tell if she has this or not.

I drain my tank water to plants outside. Now im so freaked that if i have this, its in my dirt, and can hurt the cats, me, and dogs.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I have kanaplex in ares and Jackson's (previously held Xanthus, the boy who died as stated earlier). Jackson has energy but has fin rot that's progressing fast... He also has a couple fuzzy spots. I turned the temp down last night to slow down bacteria but I turned it down to far (it's a really fiddly heater) and it went down to 69 degrees. Yes, that is bad, but I think it may have helped seeing as the fin rot has slowed down... I turned it up a bit.

Ugh.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Fuzzies could be Columnaris. It's opportunistic, so if his immune system is compromised, he might have developed it. 

For Columnaris, you could use something like API Furan 2, or Bifuran, or Jungle Fungus Clear. (All three contain the same two furan products.) These furan meds would all be effective on fin rot, too. 

This web site said you can even combine Kanaplex, General Cure and Furan 2. They said the combination of all three was previously available in a single product (called Aquatronics Paragon 2), but that company went out of business.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Will kanaplex do anything for columnaris? 

Tomorrow I go buy general cure and Furan I guess.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, Kanaplex is used for Columnaris. 

How long ago did you add the Kanaplex? If he has worsening fin rot and new "fuzzies" while in Kanaplex, I'd add the Furan meds.

If he had the rot and fuzz before adding the Kanaplex, then I'd wait a day to see if the Kanaplex controls both.


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear about your fish.

Good luck and I hope Jackson gets better!


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Finally read through the thread. Dropsy is a symptom and not an actual disease. Internal organ failure. MY mycos did cause one of my girls to dropsy....BUT the "rot" that I experienced ate into her belly, therefor causing internal organ issues. FIN rot is just that...it rots the fins to the body, not INTO the body.

I don't think what you are experiencing is mycos (IMO). I totally agree with Basement Bettas though!!! "Treat" it like it is mycos and keep from cross contaminating. This is where BB and I went wrong. We though it was just Columnaris and didn't take the precautions that we do now. I use the exact same stuff that she does, and I got mine through my vet. It runs about $30 a gallon, but unless you are running 800g of water/tanks, you only need a gallon. It does eat cheap plastic if left too long (cheap plastic spray bottle from Walmart), so DONT leave it in a spray bottle for too long...lol. It doesn't hurt beanies or acrylic tanks (I've sprayed my "Eclipse" with it). I swear mine says 3 mins though...lol.

WHEN you treat for ANYTHING, be sure and treat the entire treatment time...if it says 7 days...you better treat for the entire 7 days!!! "We" tend to stop treatment after "we" feel better instead of finishing the antibiotics...major reason why amoxicillian doesn't kill anything...lol. We create "bugs" that are med resistant. I've got a fish right now that is in API fungus cure, for fin rot. By the end of the treatment, if he doesn't look better (he is a very cool "koi" type with a pastel body, black fins, and a red "gash" across the back of his neck), but if he doesn't improve, he is gone. Like BB said...I will not attempt to cure a sick fish if the normal cure doesn't work. She and I both treated this crap for...what....over a yr. I lost my entire fish room, BB was able to save some of her lines by breeding very young, and having many more fry/juvies than what I had. I sent ALL my breeders (5 fish) from my lines to the lab I used. I had juvies growing out (14), so for me the worst part was the Betta rubra (rare wilds) fry that I had to destroy.

Saying this...with ANY disease, because they are all contagious, we need to be sure and protect our fish, and ourselves from spreading/catching anything.


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## Skyewillow (Dec 28, 2012)

Coppermoon said:


> We though it was just Columnaris...


I laughed a little at this. When we had a columnaris infection, as common as it can be, I didn't think of it as "_just_" Columnaris, I thought of it as a plague in my tank and it really stressed me out, as well as our wallets, trying to make sure it was out of the tank.

When the medication wasn't making a dent on the one super infested guppy, it was euthanized. When the fish would pick at each other in their bids for dominance, it spread through that contact.

Once we wiped out all visible signs of the illness, the medication started working better, and it stopped spreading. We also hit it with 2 different medications just to be sure it was nuked.

It's funny that I thought it was the worst thing ever, and there are MUCH worse things out there than Columnaris, but it devastated my sorority, only one of the girls survived it.

Thankfully, everything that is used on the big tank doesn't touch my tanks, and the equipment that is used on more than one tank is blanched or bleached between tanks. That really goes along with BasementBetta and Coppermoon's suggestions. Each tank is it's own system, and there could be things in one system that aren't present in another, and while cross contaminating could boost your overall immunity for disease, it could also infect all of your tanks and wipe out your stock.

*Great advice BB and Coppermoon!*

And Good Luck, Mattsbettas.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you all. I came home to find Jackson sitting in his cave and not coming out. I netted him up and he is bloated and appears to be going into the first stages of dropsy. His fuzzy spots have gone away thanks to kanaplex. As soon as I can confirm dropsy he will be euthanized.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't have much to contribute here but I have read the entire mycos thread, including BBs story and Coppermoons. This has made me much more aware of the possibilities so I couldn't thank those two enough. Unfortunately my bio-security practices were not so great before that and all my fish had been exposed to each other in some way, shape, or form. I'm still not sure what was wrong with my CT who passed away last Wednesday but his issues went way back. He went blind and then developed chronic SBD mostly in the form of buoyancy issues. He always seemed to be a bit smaller/thinner and was always lethargic. He passed in his sleep and never had any external issues (no fading in color, lesions, gray belly, raised scales, fuzzy patches, cloudy eyes, etc...) I've always been curious as to whether or not it COULD have been mycos, or just bad genetics...



Anyways, back on topic. I know things are not looking great but I really do hope and pray for you and your fish that you can identify this and that it is NOT mycos. I've only heard of those two other breeders who had it in their tanks and I know it was horrible, time consuming, expensive and devastating all at once. I'm always hoping that it doesn't become a problem for anyone, especially those who are breeders or have many tanks and fish, because they have the most to lose. I don't have as much to lose with only 4 tanks and (as of now) 7 bettas.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

There is a chance that I could get the body analyzed... What would be the best way of euthanizeation and preservation if this is the case?

Edit: Thank you Ayala. I don't have nearly as much to lose as BB and coppermoon but I still have a lot to lose and I have a few fish that would devastate me if I lost them.


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## BeautifulBetta123 (Aug 27, 2012)

Did you get to check Xanthus in an auto biopsy?


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## peachii (Jan 6, 2013)

I hope you find what caused this. 2 weeks ago we had some mystery something kill 2 of my very first bettas that I ever got. Seperate tanks but died of the exact same thing, bloated, pineconed and dropsy like appearance but one was dead within 24 hours and the other fairly fast after I saw him. They were perfect, no signs and then zero to 60 dead. First round of sickness we have had with any non-rescue fish and it really scared me as well as breaking my heart. 

I've redone every tank in the house and don't cross any materials from any tanks without bleaching them first. But.

But.

But. 

My hands. I have not been as careful with my hands as i should be when working in the tanks. As careful as i try to be with everything else in the house. I stick my hands from one to the other... and that's pretty dumb on my part. I don't even know what to clean my hands with to ensure they are safe, besides rinsing them off, I am allergic to bleach so washing my hands directly in a bleach mixture is out. So i guess soap it is. 

It's going to be a re-conditioning to remember to do this from now on but I was also sufficiently scared by it as well. I don't have but a few fish compared to you all but I'd be just as devastated if something happened to them.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Not yet... He went into the freezer so his body is probably in really bad shape.


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## peachii (Jan 6, 2013)

From what i read, the freezer is where you want to put them to preserve the body until you can get it to where it needs to go to be analyzed.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

No the freezer can destroy tissues... They expand and contract.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

So, what is the best way of euthanization and preservation if I can get an analysis done?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I did tell you about preservation but euthanization . . . my preferred method is to use Finquel, a fish sedative that can be overdosed to euthanize. It must be used with baking soda as a buffer but otherwise it's quite quick and less traumatic than clove oil. But clove oil is the most accessible method and should not interfere with any tests that would be done on the body later.

In theory, the presence of mycos that is bad enough to kill can be identified without having to do a bacteria test via tissue sample; I could, in theory, walk you through the process of opening up the fish and checking the body cavity for the telltale granulomas that will be present in a serious case of mycos. But for 100% positive identification, you would still want a tissue sample done. I'm not as sure I could identify the presence of hexamita though.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Could you do that? I have been wondering if I could do it myself, but I would need to know what to look for and where. I haven't put Jackson down yet, kanaplex and low temps seem to have slowed the progression... But it's still progressing.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

The bad part about fish keeping is that no one is willing to help a "keeper". They only want to help commercial breeders. IF I hadn't been supplying my local with Betta, I would not have been helped. The FL lab that I was able to use has links to Fish Vets, but I'm sure (like with petstore rats), the animal cost less then a visit (we bout 2 $5 rats, and both had URS infections...$80 a piece to take them to the vet plus meds!!!).

Death then frig with in 5 mins (no water in bag), then after an hr, packed in dry ice then shipped over night to a lab, is the only way to preserve. IF you have access to a good microscope, then doing it yourself is the best way. I'm really sorry your fishies are dying Matt. I wish there was more I could offer you in help. For cleaning (with out the cleaner), use 50/50 bleach/water and soak overnight...5 days is better. IF it can be bleached in that concentration, then bleach it. As far as ME...as soon as I get done in the fish room (or between tanks), I use antibacterial soap and as hot of water as I can stand.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

The method of preservation is going to depend on the testing that you want done....

Ideally, you'd send the sick fish (while still alive) to the lab for testing. This way, they can examine the tissues AND obtain bacterial cultures. This is what the University of Florida recommends: link is here. 

If you can't send the live fish, then, according to the Merck Veterinary Manual. Link is here.: 
 If you want tissues or internal organs examined: Preserve in a way to keep the tissues or organs intact. --> Put in formalin, refrigerate, ships ASAP. Test samples as soon as possible, since they'll degrade over time. (Do NOT freeze, since this can damage tissues/organs.)
 If you want to have a bacterial culture done: Preserve in a way to keep the bacteria viable (alive). --> Refrigerate only, and ship ASAP. Do not freeze or use preservatives, since this can kill some bacteria. 

Here is a good summary from the University of Arizona. Link is here.: 
_"Proper selection and preservation of samples for bacteriologic analysis is essential for accurate and efficient diagnosis. Postmortem autolysis of tissues is the most common cause of interference with bacteriologic diagnosis. Tissues should be very fresh, collected aseptically and immediately refrigerated, and sent by overnight transport. When prompt submission is not possible, freezing is acceptable for most types of bacteriologic tests, although they are often unsuitable for other microbiologic or pathologic testing. A second cause of interference is collection of samples too late in the course of the disease or after the initiation of antibiotic therapy. Submit generous samples of tissue, exudates, or feces. Avoid the use of swabs when fresh tissues or exudates are available. The prompt collection of specimens with minimal exposure to air is particularly important for anaerobic culture. 

Tissue samples should be submitted in separate containers and properly identified. Adequate refrigeration in insulated containers with sufficient numbers of ice packs is essential for shipping specimens."_


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> The method of preservation is going to depend on the testing that you want done....
> 
> Ideally, you'd send the sick fish (while still alive) to the lab for testing. This way, they can examine the tissues AND obtain bacterial cultures. This is what the University of Florida recommends: link is here.
> 
> ...


Yep, yep...this is the lab I used. There are links (on the home page I think) to the Fish Vets for pet owners.


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## Aahnay (Jul 3, 2012)

According to the research in this thread, use at least 71% isopropyl alcohol to sanitize hands, Ive been using the 91%. You also can spray it on other solid surfaces to kill. Takes 1 minute IIRC.

Also use bleach first 1-10 to remove the, umm slim stuff to get to the tb.

Also, he has posted pics of the granulomas found in the two fish he took to vet and then sent to lab.

Its a sad thread, read it all. I only wish he had posted this year, it all just stopped last april, except some of the followups from others.

Freaked me out and this am, i had decided to get rid of my tanks, Ive lost 2, and have 4 more that are sick. I do not want tb. I look at my bathtub and think i can never use it again! Have to replace it, the drains etc.

Lucky its warming up so I can shower outside 

I love my fish. Ive only had them 8 mos, and it breaks my heart to see them ill. The only one that isnt sick, yet, is the first one, georgie, the avatar. But he is in with the other one, the girl turned male, who has pretty much stopped eating.


My beloved goldie, looks great, but hasnt eaten now in about 2.5 weeks, maybe three. The poor girl that jumped out to the floor and was there forever, and hurt her back? She just stopped eating 2 days ago.

My head and heart hearts. I want them.

Sorry for all your loss.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks guys... Sakura, could you walk me through the procedure? I only have one right now and since an American uni won't work (shipping/customs), I would like to try that first. I have access to a good microscope, scalpel, etc. 

I'm going to put that guy down right now.


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## Mar (Apr 9, 2013)

Sorry for your loss.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay. I'm going to PM you the information because it is a bit graphic and I don't want to upset anyone.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you. Graphic or not, if it will help me save some of my fish the info is much appreciated. Completely understand why you want to pm it! I have a little bit of experience doing dissections but not a ton... I've only done one fish and it was a LOT bigger then a betta.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Also, just to add, this boy progressed over five days. By the end of it he was bloated (but he didn't seem to be quite into full blown dropsy- his scales protruded just a little bit.)


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Okay, I sent you the PM. It's not as thorough as I'd like but then, this is uncharted territory for me. Bear in mind this is not really a replacement for a professional autopsy but it should help some. In this case, I would expect to see swollen kidneys and possibly the presence of parasites or granuloma.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Matt, how did it go today? I'm sure that dissecting Jackson wasn't a pleasant experience since he was your pet.... but were you able to determine anything?


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It was fairly inconclusive... I'm 90% sure it is not parasitic in nature (as per Sakura's instructions, scales and organs were examined under a microscope for anything moving. Well, nothing moved). A couple organs seemed unnaturally swollen, I don't know what it was but it was big and light brown (stomach?). There was one thing that stood out to me as strange.. It was like a soft small, white lump. Granuloma?

The dissection was easy once I told myself that it is only a body now and it will help the rest of my fish.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Granuloma, possibly, or depending on the size it could be a fatty tumor. If it was a granuloma, you probably would have seen more than one.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

There was the large one-the one I saw- but there very well may have been more. There was something else that kinda looked like a small white dot... I don't know though...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

One large one may not have been enough to kill him. It's so hard to say. The swollen organ you talked about may have been the kidneys; probably had kidney failure by the time he passed and the fluid had built up inside.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Intersting. I contemplated cutting open opal essence to see if what made her so huge was just fluids but even if I did, I wouldnt know what the hell I was looking at anyways. She didn't die right away and acted normal up till the end but she was HUGE..and just bobbed around like a baloon in water


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Got to remember the mycos is also granulomas...

http://www.koi-pond-guide.com/images/mycobacteria.jpg

I'd still get someting to wipe out the mycos and clean everything. And do NOT trust any fish from any breeder. Often they may not know any fish are sick for a long while, and by then many fish are carriers. There is a breeder in Thailand right now we feel has mycos in his fish. Got several communicating with me about similar sickness and all from this breeder. Have heard reports this breeder gets regular complaints about shipping sick fish. ANYPLACE those fish have been are at risk. And I have seen it in my local petsmarts and petcos. It is OUT there. Nothing to be afraid of, just be aware of.

SO. You can take steps now to keep from getting it or managing a possible outbreak in your fish room. Get something in your home that will kill it and start using good bio-security.

And don't intentionally buy sick fish.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

It definatly was not that bad, but that looks like an extreme case on a large fish...


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Fish get stuff and die. A fish death is not a cause for concern. Several fish dying in similar ways at the same time is a cause for alarm. If not obvious like velvet you can try the usual round of gram positive and negative meds. If those and clean water do not get improvement.. need to get everything real clean and use care with new fish.

That pic did show an advanced state of the disease. But I did see little grey flecks in my fish with swelled organs. There were also larger spots. And the bone structure starts to get bumpy. Not only will the fish lose condition, but you start to see some dips and bumps where you did not have them before.


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