# Culling a Betta



## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Hello everyone!

Well I'm not breeding YET, though I want to and NEED to know how I would go about doing this.

I know that since I am going to be breeding, sometime or another, i'm going to have to do this. It's every breeders nightmare to find yourself having to cull/kill.

So I am asking experienced breeders and or non-experienced breeders, How have you culled or do cull.

I am looking for the most humane way to cull a betta. I think it would ease my conscience if I found the most humane way that would be painless to the fish. Maybe something quick and easy? Well I think the most humane way would be to freeze them. Only because I have NEVER had to cull because I have never had a cull.

-BL2033


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## vilmarisv (Apr 17, 2010)

There are some chemicals you can use to cull fish that will put them to sleep and kill them.
Personally, I have culled fish by freezing them. I placed it in a small container with very little water and just placed it in the freezer. It's heartbreaking but sometimes necessary.


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## mountaintrout (Nov 24, 2011)

That is a question on me as well. I will be breeding with my daughter for her high school science fair. I have everything ready to go and have home for the babies, but I'm sure one will have to be humanely culled. She is now in 7th grade so her project is a 3 year process. Her heart will implode when the time comes,so good advice will hopefully keep a few tears back.......maybe


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

An overdose of clove oil is the best method for humane euthanasia. I used 1/2 a bottle per fish as it kills them almost instantly and doesn't require a follow-up with vodka as is normally done.

You just have to ensure you have properly dispersed the clove oil in water before adding it. Also clove oil has a very strong smell, so I recommend using gloves to avoid getting it all over your hands.

You can pick clove oil up in some supermarkets, as well as at your local chemist.


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## mountaintrout (Nov 24, 2011)

Thank you very much


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Just ensure that if you use the clove oil method you leave them in the solution for a couple of hours after gill movement has stopped. 

Fish have been known to 'come back to life' once they have been taken out of the clove oil.


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## mountaintrout (Nov 24, 2011)

Tough fish, yet fragile. I love that quality


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## EvilVOG (Nov 23, 2011)

You could always use the board to give away extra fish, maybe even offer some to a pet shop?


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

EvilVOG said:


> You could always use the board to give away extra fish, maybe even offer some to a pet shop?


NO. I would never give any fish to any pet shop because they are too cruel. Even when they dont notice it. I don't think ill ever offer my fish to a pet store. To be honest pet stores that sell cats or dogs are very inhumane people and horrible! They get commercially bought from puppy mills and other mills that involve other pets. Also I wouldnt want to give away a cull that really has to suffer in order to live. (If it is a simple deformity, then i will have him in my *Adopt a cull* program and will give a person an option to adopt a cull with a buy from one of my fish. It's like a bonus. Only to trustworthy people is who i would offer them to.

-BL2033



LittleBettaFish said:


> An overdose of clove oil is the best method for humane euthanasia. I used 1/2 a bottle per fish as it kills them almost instantly and doesn't require a follow-up with vodka as is normally done.
> 
> You just have to ensure you have properly dispersed the clove oil in water before adding it. Also clove oil has a very strong smell, so I recommend using gloves to avoid getting it all over your hands.
> 
> You can pick clove oil up in some supermarkets, as well as at your local chemist.


What exactly is it? And what does it do? Where would be the most likely place to find it? Is it expensive?

-BL2033


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## mountaintrout (Nov 24, 2011)

I truly like what you had to say there bettalovet. I commend you and thank you


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

mountaintrout said:


> I truly like what you had to say there bettalovet. I commend you and thank you


Thank you, but im curious, what part?

-BL2033


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## mountaintrout (Nov 24, 2011)

The part of turning them over to pet shops. Its an ugly ness 90% of the time and you never know how they refused the fish you give them. And to give one as an adoptafish is great


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

bettalover2033 said:


> What exactly is it? And what does it do? Where would be the most likely place to find it? Is it expensive?
> 
> -BL2033


It is a natural analgaesic, and a lot of people use it to numb tooth pain. You can pick it up at the local chemist. Some people say they have found it at supermarkets, but I have never had any luck.


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## EvilVOG (Nov 23, 2011)

Right i meant a pet shop if you have one that's nice and takes good care of their fish. I know that's rare but i know a couple around me that are really top notch.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

LittleBettaFish said:


> It is a natural analgaesic, and a lot of people use it to numb tooth pain. You can pick it up at the local chemist. Some people say they have found it at supermarkets, but I have never had any luck.


Thanks, i'll definitely be on the look out for it! Thanks again.

-BL2033


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@EvilVOG: I know a few too, but i still wouldnt stay the same.

-BL2033


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## EvilVOG (Nov 23, 2011)

that's cool. I understand your reasoning, i'm just trying to save some fish lives.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yeah, I totally get that! I know that is it a quality to have.

-BL2033


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

It's actually very inhumane to freeze live tropical fish, especially Bettas. 

Clove oil overdose is what I would recommend.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

you meanwhen you breed you have to kill one of the bettas?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

you mean when you breed them you have to kill one!?!


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## vilmarisv (Apr 17, 2010)

No, you don't have to kill one. 
It's only in extreme cases of deformity in the fry when you might have to make the decision to cull a betta. 
I've never had to deal with such situation as I've never had a deformed fish in a spawn but I was faced with an emergency early in my betta keeping where one of my fish jumped out of his tank while I was at work. I found him on the floor covered in dust and very close to death. 
I used the freezer method because I didnt want him to keep sufering, he had had enough and was going to suffer much more if I had placed him in water and *try* to bring him back to life. He was not going to make it.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

I would recommend the clove oil thing. Freezing is suspected to be very painful, and some breeders no longer do it. 

One of my friends let her betta go that way because he had been battling dropsy for a while. When she took him out, he was all twisted and contorted, and water had splashed out of the cup. Very sad.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

When you breed/spawn or keep fish-you often are faced with a hard choice..."Humane euthanasia or allowing the creature to suffer needlessly"

Humane euthanasia should be fast and the fastest method is often the hardest method for some....but you need to view it as-"what is in the best interest of the creature"..._not you_......killing something is never going to be easy for most of us.....so when the deed needs to be done.....do it fast......_decapitation and smash the head/brain_.....faster the better.....small fish it can be harder but can still be done by using newspaper and placing the fish between it-use a heavy book or a hammer...don't hesitate....make a hard clean hit-roll up the paper and dispose of properly either in the trash, burn or bury.....

While clove oil is highly recommended- I personally find it too slow and the fish appears to suffer in the struggle too long for my taste...slow suffocation IMO seem cruel....
If I couldn't destroy the head/brain I would freeze-when done properly it is fast, painless and limits undue suffering-depending on the fish current state-I would start with very cold water (_under 40F_) to shock them first so that the system would shut down quickly-it is then a matter of time before they stop breathing while in the unconscious state while in the freezer and by using a small solid disposable type container with a top of some type can help limit your viewing (_like a tin can, styerfoam cup_).

Never flush a live or dead fish down the toilet-this is not only cruel for a living fish/aquatic life- but can have a negative impact on our environment....

If I was culling due to deformity and not health per se...I would gut load them and feed to another fish.....never feed a sick fish to other fish...

Culling is never going to be easy-but sometimes we have to...its a selfless act on our part and its our responsibility as responsible fish keepers. If you can't bring yourself to cull-then you should not breed fish because culling is a realistic part of breeding.......


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well said OFL. I was actually waiting for your response here. Thank you.

About the freezing, I was thinking the same thing, but was told that freezing is making them suffer and is cruel. I was thinking to get a very small amount of water, then make sure it is as cold as possible and shock the fish while everything is slowing down. (I have shocked a fish for the first time a while back [by accident] and it was really hard to get him back to his healthy self.) Then stick it in the freezer.

Maybe a half pint cup will help this process go faster?

OFL, I kind of know what euthanasia is, but am a little foggy on it. Is it always (opening the body of an animal?)

-BL2033


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## bettafish15 (Oct 3, 2010)

Ahhh, freezing makes a little more sense now. I guess the fish suffers a tiny bit whether you use clove oil or you freeze them. The only way to have them not suffer is blunt force :/


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## Wulvie Sharpteeth (Sep 30, 2011)

I havent had to cull a betta yet (I havent had a successful breeding pair yet) but I have culled guppy fry before, and I find that the quickest way to kill them is to just stab them thru the head, I know it sounds horrible, but it ends really quick.

either that or you can feed them to any bigger fish if you have some, when my guppy fry die now, I feed them to the severum upstairs


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well I have never had to cull a fish at all! I know sometime in a couple generations, I will have to eventually do it.

I might just stick to the freezing and stuff after OFL answers my questions. Also if times get rough I will attempt the decapitation or the book thing. Talking about this sends shivers down my back, but I know that is has to be done.

-BL2033


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Euthanasia is just the term used for "putting them to sleep"

You may be thinking of the word- "necropsy" which is when you cut them open-like an autopsy 

Also, FYI-even with the decapitation to sever the spine and destroy the brain-the heart may still beat for up to 15 min....usually it is less- but without the head they don't feel anything...remembering that the fish perception of pain is different than it is for us.....


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## shadow123 (Jun 6, 2010)

..


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I see.

That makes a lot more sense now. So just smashing would be best or decapitation?

-BL2033


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

Yeah, just like zombies, decapitation or destruction of the brain/spinal cord is most humane..

The problem is, especially with fry, their heads are so small, and if they're flopping around. Ptaflala recommends wrapping them in a wet paper towel to reduce stress for them and mess for us. Stunning them in clove oil before decapitating them will insure they're not flopping around as well.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

GreenTea said:


> Yeah, just like zombies, decapitation or destruction of the brain/spinal cord is most humane..
> 
> The problem is, especially with fry, their heads are so small, and if they're flopping around. Ptaflala recommends wrapping them in a wet paper towel to reduce stress for them and mess for us. Stunning them in clove oil before decapitating them will insure they're not flopping around as well.


All of what you said is true, but why would you cull a fry that small? You wouldn't be able to if it should even be culled.

-BL2033


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

Some fry have bent spines or deformed bodies/organs that are evident almost immediately.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

According to the AVMA, freezing or "cooling" is not recommend nor proven to be humane. 

The AVMA accepts the following methods of euthanasia as humane for fish: pithing/brain destruction, CO2, injection of sodium pentobarbital, immersion in tricane methane sulfonate, immersion in benzocaine hydrochloride, immersion in 2-phenoxyethanol, anesthesia followed by decapitation/pithing, and decapitation w/pithing. To read about these methods in detail, click here.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Oh, I see. With bent spines or something that is physically noticeable, can a fish "outgrow" it or maybe even have it corrected in some way? Or is it just impossible?

-BL2033


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Not that I know of - once bent, they either stay that way or become worse. But straight spines sometimes becomes bent when older.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Just like humans. It is the same thing with humans. We get older and (sometimes) people's spine's bend.

-BL2033


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

No the spine being bent seems to be permanent...I also have some flaty fry and usually they come out healthy and great, but once EVERY fry came out in an "L" shape and couldnt swim, which I only noticed after netting them and putting them in a 1 gal. It was sad realizing they all needed to be culled, but fortunately I have lots of hungry betta and one hungry goldfish who were happy to cull them for me.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

bettalover2033 said:


> Just like humans. It is the same thing with humans. We get older and (sometimes) people's spine's bend.
> 
> -BL2033


Similar but not the same. In bettas it's more genetic related - though sometimes it could happen due to some sort of injury like when netted and they get stuck or something.

In humans it's more injury or lack of calcium .... I think..... though sometimes it can be genetic.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

I think the most humane way to euthanize a betta is to feed it to another fish. I feed small fry to my larger bettas and larger fry to my cichlid. He knows why I am there and the fish is gone the second it hits the water. No pain no nothing just gone. 

IMO, It's not OK to adopt out deformed fish just so that you don't have to feel like you did something wrong. If you are gonna bring life into this world you have a responsibility to ensure it's quality of life. Think of mother nature, she has no problem "culling" her creatures when they are born deformed. In fact most animal mothers will abandon or eat deformed babies. This may sound cruel but the truth is, letting the animal grow up to suffer is the real cruelty. If you cant stand the thought of killing one of your fish for it's own benefit, you have no business in bringing life into this world. I really hope I don't offend anyone because that's not my intention I just want to stress how serious this is. Bringing life into this world is a HUGE responsibility and one that should not be taken lightly.

Doing the RIGHT thing, is often not the easiest thing to do.


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## ShyDog (Oct 15, 2011)

I believe you're referring to her "adopt a cull" program. Honestly, just as with humans dogs any other pet there is "deformed but able to live a normal life" and "deformed to the point of cruelty". I believe the former is what is being talked about here. The reason all deformed fish would be culled is, just put up for sale like normal fish, they would obviously get looked over, and never sell. This way, people who have big hearts and want to take on the additional task of helping out a somewhat deformed but still functional fish, can do so knowingly. 

I believe we can defer to the OP to know the difference between the two, and that they only have the best interest of their spawn at heart and intention. 

also, all the following is in good humor, and I apologize on further thought if my tone comes off as anything but. No offense to anyone's opinions meant. 

Random rant: 
Pets as pertaining to the human race are not part of nature. We set them apart by making them dependent on us. Thus, they are also exempt from what would normally be a selective pressure. To be honest, I have seen many "deformed" (dogs with 3 legs, one eye, one ear or in one case completely blind) who lead normal happy lives, They do not deserve to be "put down" just because of their deformity. Just like you probably wouldn't want aunt Raz (sorry if anyone has an aunt Raz) Euthanized cause her hip is going a little wonky.

We choose to set ourselves apart from selective pressures that exist in the natural world and we extend that to our pets. (and by selective pressures I mean those of us who live with dissabilities but get along just fine where we would "die" in nature). It's a weak argument to bring in here, because of that. 
...Lost my train of thought, guess I'll end it here.



Bettas Rule said:


> * IMO, It's not OK to adopt out deformed fish just so that you don't have to feel like you did something wrong. If you are gonna bring life into this world you have a responsibility to ensure it's quality of life. Think of mother nature, she has no problem "culling" her creatures when they are born deformed. In fact most animal mothers will abandon or eat deformed babies. This may sound cruel but the truth is, letting the animal grow up to suffer is the real cruelty.* If you cant stand the thought of killing one of your fish for it's own benefit, you have no business in bringing life into this world. I really hope I don't offend anyone because that's not my intention I just want to stress how serious this is. Bringing life into this world is a HUGE responsibility and one that should not be taken lightly.
> 
> Doing the RIGHT thing, is often not the easiest thing to do.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

ShyDog said:


> I believe you're referring to her "adopt a cull" program. Honestly, just as with humans dogs any other pet there is "deformed but able to live a normal life" and "deformed to the point of cruelty". I believe the former is what is being talked about here. The reason all deformed fish would be culled is, just put up for sale like normal fish, they would obviously get looked over, and never sell. This way, people who have big hearts and want to take on the additional task of helping out a somewhat deformed but still functional fish, can do so knowingly.
> 
> I believe we can defer to the OP to know the difference between the two, and that they only have the best interest of their spawn at heart and intention.


This is what I said...Please read a post completely before you go on one of your rants and start making judgments.....


> This may sound cruel but the truth is, letting the animal grow up to suffer is the real cruelty. If you cant stand the thought of killing one of your fish for it's own benefit, you have no business in bringing life into this world.


One would assume by this post that I am referring to animals that would be suffering if kept alive......



> Random rant:
> Pets as pertaining to the human race are not part of nature. We set them apart by making them dependent on us. Thus, they are also exempt from what would normally be a selective pressure. To be honest, I have seen many "deformed" (dogs with 3 legs, one eye, one ear or in one case completely blind) who lead normal happy lives, They do not deserve to be "put down" just because of their deformity. Just like you probably wouldn't want aunt Raz (sorry if anyone has an aunt Raz) Euthanized cause her hip is going a little wonky.
> 
> We choose to set ourselves apart from selective pressures that exist in the natural world and we extend that to our pets. (and by selective pressures I mean those of us who live with dissabilities but get along just fine where we would "die" in nature). It's a weak argument to bring in here, because of that.
> ...Lost my train of thought, guess I'll end it here.


I see that you are in the mood to vent....and that's fine...can you not do it in someone else's thread though ? We actually have a rant section to prevent this kind of thread jacking. I would be happy to discuss this topic with you but it's off topic and therefore not respectful to the OP. If you want to discuss this with me please feel free to create a thread about it. I would be happy to debate the subject with you respectfully. That means not referring to someone's opinion as a "weak argument". That's a rude and condescending comment.


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## ShyDog (Oct 15, 2011)

I did read your post completely, you mentioned no where specifically the program, only that it's cruel to instate such a program. And no, no judgments here. I do not see how I am off topic anymore than you have been. Your post contained no information on how to aid culling, or the easiest methods to do so only that the poster is "wrong" for having a way to save certain cull. 
But, digression no need to keep derailing a thread.




Bettas Rule said:


> This is what I said...Please read a post completely before you go on one of your rants and start making judgments.....
> 
> 
> I see that you are in the mood to vent....and that's fine...can you not do it in someone else's thread though ?


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## BlakbirdxGyarados (Feb 10, 2011)

Just to throw this in here, 

I've got a Painted Turtle who usually gets my and my granpa's culled guppies. While it's not only a quick way to cull, it's beneficial for Samm in that he gets a little more protein in his diet. We usually judge who to cull depending on how bad the deformity is and how well they'd thrive if they were given the chance to live longer... any that can live completely fine lives but have traits we don't want in future generations are kept in a separate tank, of course.

Example:
Guppy was born fine but grew up with a more and more obvious spinal deformity much like how a human can get scholiosis(sp?) - While she can never have kids, she eats well, swims just fine, and is not picked on by my grandfather's red dragon plakat or other Tequila Sunrises. She gets to live simply because she lives just about as normally as a non-deformed guppy.

Example: 
Guppy is born without a swim bladder/cannot swim correctly without having to constantly move their other fins and are never at rest. - There were two of these type, a boy and a girl. While both were actually very pretty, they wouldn't have survived very well since they literally were unable to rest. Even while resting on a leaf at night, they still had to move their fins to balance themselves and keep even the lightest current from knocking them over. They were sent to Samm's tank to be culled by Samm's knife-like and swift beak. His way is the best way since he's fast enough to be humane.


I know I was talking about guppies here (I have not yet had a successful breeding spawn yet, nor can I start a spawn anymore with me leaving soon), but essentially it contributes to the discussion in that they're as tropical as bettas and, especially since the spawning is a lot easier to do, the culling goes by a lot more often.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

A fish with a slight deformity that can still live a somewhat normal existence I see no issue with adopting out. I adopted a female with a curved spine for my sorority and you know what? She was the alpha and a very happy fish. Some breeders don't want to deal with finding homes so they just go straight to culling, but for the breeder who feels like the fish can have a normal life and has the time to find it an appropriate home, I see no issue in adopting them out.


As for what culling methods I use. For fry I prefer either smash and trash or give to my friend who has a large oscar. When I have to euthanize a fish I do clove oil only because I don't have the stomach to kill a pet that I'm attached to. I have frozen a fish out of necessity before and I can honestly say in my experience the fish was gone quicker and with less thrashing then in the clove oil but if the AVMA considers freezing inhumane I won't do it until I can find scientific proof that the fish does not suffer more than using one of the approved methods.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Culling is a pretty contraversial subject so let's be respectful of each others' opinions please, even if you don't agree. . I feel the same way Jackie does. If a fish has a slight deformity but can live a pretty normal life it can be adopted out. But fish with deformities that cause pain and suffering should be humanely culled.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

My question is how do you know the fish is not in pain when it has a spinal deformity. Many people have scoliosis and are in constant pain.
This is a quote from a forum on scoliosis.



> If Scoliosis causes a person's muscles to be stretched or tightened in a way that they aren't supposed to be, and then your range of motion is decreased--yet you try to use those muscles in a normal way, then of course it hurts!


Many people live work and play without any obvious signs of Scoliosis and they don't complain or make a big deal about it. To the rest of us their quality of life is great. However if you actually knew them and talked to them they would tell you what it's like. 

Fish can't talk and they can't show pain in a way that we can understand. As long as the fish is swimming and eating we think it's fine. Yet we can never truly know if the fish is in a constant state of pain or not. Animals are notorious for dying suddenly to us, only for us to find out later that the animal had been sick for some time and we just couldn't tell. That's how keicko the killer whale died. No one knew he was sick till he died. Then they saw he had phenomena. 

If we know that spinal deformities in humans are painful why would we assume that fish are different? And if you truly love your fish , why would you risk your fish living in a constant state of pain? All a fish can do is swim and eat or it will die, so how can that be a catalyst for quality of life? That's just surviving...


I am all for adopting out fish that have no deformities that could be painful, but when I saw fry of mine with crooked spines I culled them. And they were eating just fine. To me it's not worth the risk, sure it sucks and I hate to do it but I have an obligation to do it because I created them. It's my fault that they are deformed and they shouldn't have to pay the price of being in pain just because I can't stomach killing them.....


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow, where was I when this was all taking place? I agree with DQ that we should all be respectful of what one another says, no matter how much we disagree.

Anyway, just to say, I am still going to do the "Adopt A Cull" program. Not that I didnt listen to your opinions and criticism, because I did, but because I think that not all deformed or messed up fish deserve to be culled.

*@Bettas Rule*: I agree with you to a certain point. I respect what you are saying and am taking it into consideration for the well being of the fish. Though when you last commented about the "Scoliosis" thing, I have to say that fish are a different species and do not have the emotions of grief as we do. You said it yourself that in nature, they even eat their fry that are deformed or whatever the case may be about them. We would never even think twice about killing a baby because it has a *cleft lip*, *conjoined twins*, *autistic*, ect. You see if we were like this in nature and were fish, we would definitely cull them and not hesitate to do so.

Though these are fish and don't understand that they are messed up, for lack of better words. I think that if a betta or any fish for that case can live a normal life should not be culled. Now if the fish cannot live a normal life and is always struggling to either get air or food or even swim, then they should be culled because as they grow, it will only get worse.

I have a great example, You see many fish in the pet stores that are sick or have just terrible finnage, though you can give them a better home and help them live happier, but lets say that you cannot fix their fins at all for some reason, wouldn't you still buy them because you want to give them a good home? I think that't the same as the "Adopt A Cull Program" program or the *AACP* (I'll just use that instead of putting it all out. Also just made that up.) I'm not saying that fish dont feel pain, but im saying they dont feel pain as we do. If there is a fish that has a nipped fin then of course it is going to feel pain at the moment and then get better, but if we had, lets say a finger taken off, we'll yelp for bloody Mary and take it more seriously than a fish would.

*@1fish2fish,@Dramaqueen, To Whoever Else It May Concern*:

I agree with both of you and would like to thank 1fish2fish for how you cull you culls.

I believe that AACP is a great idea because when people buy bettas from someone, they have the opportunity to (AAC) and it is just a choice, whether they want to or not. The cull isn't to be bred so I would only offer it to someone I trust (like people on this forum). I know that you all wouldn't breed the cull so I would offer it to you. I definitely won't try to sell them like many people do on Aquabid, but will offer them a good home because if I raised them then I would want the best for them. I'm sure just seeing them go would be sad, but I know I cant keep them all.

I hope that I clarified my opinions about this topic. Also I would like to say that I am open to as many opinions and/or examples that describe the topic for others to understand your point.

-BL2033


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## BlakbirdxGyarados (Feb 10, 2011)

That's true about the spinal deformity. Honestly the call on whether to cull that guppy I used in my example or not wasn't my decision. (Not my fish or spawn of guppies.) As a note, the guppy didn't show any signs of deformity until she was a full grown adult. 



> From *dramaqueen*:
> Culling is a pretty contraversial subject so let's be respectful of each others' opinions please, even if you don't agree. . I feel the same way Jackie does. _If a fish has a slight deformity but can live a pretty normal life it can be adopted out. But fish with deformities that cause pain and suffering should be humanely culled_.


I'm going with this as well. 

It is hard to tell with animals about if they are in pain or if they're suffering in any way. (Humans are animals too... sometimes we don't say anything if we're in pain.) We can only go with what we've learned through studying body language, behaviors, etc. throughout the years and going from that.

In short, I'm for thriving, not just surviving.
Each case is different though, and we all have to do our best to make the right decision. 


(Another side note, sort of like... seeing the case is a better picture to judge off of than a description. Which I'm definitely not good with descriptions. >__>)
*Edit:* I'm so slow at typing, lol.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Humans are not animals. We are Mammals, yes, but not animals because you see we we are the only *known* race that is this as advance as we are.

Animals know things to a certain extent and act differently to things. Not completely different though.

A mother bear will defend her cubs from another animal, as we would defend our children from other people that are not trusted. Though we are different in how we handle certain situations. So I dont think we're animals.

-BL2033


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## BlakbirdxGyarados (Feb 10, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> Humans are not animals. We are Mammals, yes, but not animals because you see we we are the only *known* race that is this as advance as we are.
> 
> Animals know things to a certain extent and act differently to things. Not completely different though.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying smarts has anything to do with it. Because we are mammals, that makes us an animal. Most of the time people don't think of ourselves like that because we are more advanced in obvious ways.

Edit: Not trying to switch your belief, but us being animals is actually a fact.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

If a fish is eating, swimming, growing, and thriving what else are we supposed to expect other than it is having a full life? Normally speaking animals in pain tend not to thrive the way a healthy animal does.

To each his own.


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## BlakbirdxGyarados (Feb 10, 2011)

^+1


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@1fish2fish: That is exactly the point that I was trying to get across. You just put it in better words.

Thank you,

-BL2033


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

Taxonomy of Humans:

xx*Kingdom Animalia*
xxxxxx*Phylum Chordata
*xxxxxxxxSubphylum Vertebrata
xxxxxxxxxxxx*Class Mammalia*
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx*Order Primates*
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx*Family Hominidae*
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx*Genus ****
*xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx*Species sapiens
*xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxSubspecies sapiens
Just saying.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@ChelseaK: I don't mean to sound ignorant but I don't understand that at all...

-BL2033


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

1fish2fish said:


> If a fish is eating, swimming, growing, and thriving what else are we supposed to expect other than it is having a full life? Normally speaking animals in pain tend not to thrive the way a healthy animal does.
> 
> To each his own.


Well when I was a vet tech I saw many dogs that had arthritis and they were in constant pain. Yet they were still healthy and well behaved. So are humans in constant pain, they still eat and thrive too. Many animals can live through pain and eat well and grow. Doesn't mean they are not in pain. I get your point and all. I just personally don't want to be responsible for the possible suffering of a clearly deformed animal that I had a hand in creating. I stated my opinion and no one has to agree with me on it. It's just my opinion on the topic.


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

To quote wikipedia "Taxonomy is the science of identifying and naming species, and arranging them into a classification" 

I was just reinforcing BlakbirdxGyarados's statement that humans are in fact animals, and the taxonomy just outlines where in the animal kingdom (Kingdom Animalia) we stand, that's all.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Personally I think most animals that are in pain do their best not to show it, particularly prey animals. It is a survival mechanism. You don't want to give any watching predators the idea that you might be weaker than the others.

It's part of the reason why fish will suddenly drop dead after having been seemingly alright only a a day or so before. They might have been sick for quite a while, but only shown a slight change in behaviour.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Guys keep in mind not everyone believes evolutionary theory, no need to shove it down their throats.

How much pain a fish feels is still unknown, however its generally accepted by a scientific standpoint that they do not feel the same level of pain a vertebrate mammal does. The best we can do is go by how the animal behaves.

However I'm one that would rather have a deformity culled than have some one breed it but that is every breeder's judgment call to make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@LittleBettaFish: I agree with you and have to add that as 1fish2fish has claimed once again, fish don't feel pain as we do. It is impossible to figure out EXACTLY how they feel. Just the same as it is impossible to find out how a single human is feeling. Though we are mastering the "body language" techniques and learning from them. It's hard to keep them in mind when dealing whith people because of other problems that there is no need to get into. (At least in this generation) There is no way to tell how a person, fish, dog, cat ect feel. Your pets could be in pain right now and you wouldn't know it unless they show signes of it or yelp in some form.

@Bettas Rule: I understand that you want the best for your fry and don't want to take the chance of having a fry or other fish that you have created to suffer for your mistakes. Trust me there are plenty of horrible people who care nothing about this topic and take breeding as a game for profit. They're the ones that are guilty of animal cruelty. I think what you stand for is great, I don't agree completely with you, but that is fine. Not everyone is going to agree with another person and that's the beauty of diversity. I'm glad that you care so much for the lives you helped create and take responsibility for your actions.

-BL2033


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Personally I think most animals that are in pain do their best not to show it, particularly prey animals. It is a survival mechanism. You don't want to give any watching predators the idea that you might be weaker than the others.
> 
> It's part of the reason why fish will suddenly drop dead after having been seemingly alright only a a day or so before. They might have been sick for quite a while, but only shown a slight change in behaviour.


That's exactly what I have been trying to say...for some reason I am not saying well but your explanation is perfect.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> @LittleBettaFish: I agree with you and have to add that as 1fish2fish has claimed once again, fish don't feel pain as we do. It is impossible to figure out EXACTLY how they feel. Just the same as it is impossible to find out how a single human is feeling. Though we are mastering the "body language" techniques and learning from them. It's hard to keep them in mind when dealing whith people because of other problems that there is no need to get into. (At least in this generation) There is no way to tell how a person, fish, dog, cat ect feel. Your pets could be in pain right now and you wouldn't know it unless they show signes of it or yelp in some form.
> 
> @Bettas Rule: I understand that you want the best for your fry and don't want to take the chance of having a fry or other fish that you have created to suffer for your mistakes. Trust me there are plenty of horrible people who care nothing about this topic and take breeding as a game for profit. They're the ones that are guilty of animal cruelty. I think what you stand for is great, I don't agree completely with you, but that is fine. Not everyone is going to agree with another person and that's the beauty of diversity. I'm glad that you care so much for the lives you helped create and take responsibility for your actions.
> 
> -BL2033


Thanks I appreciate that! I am glad that we can have a discussion as deep as this and still remain civil. Thanks for that! :-D


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## ChelseaK (Oct 23, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> Guys keep in mind not everyone believes evolutionary theory, no need to shove it down their throats.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point, good point.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Bettas Rule said:


> Thanks I appreciate that! I am glad that we can have a discussion as deep as this and still remain civil. Thanks for that! :-D


 
That is the whole point of this forum. To disagree, with (respect). Not many have done this, but hopefully its a good enough example.

-BL2033


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm glad no one got overly aggressive in this thread. I just got here, and I believe that it should be very hard for a breeder to cull, that proves he/she cares. I have oscars that I would use to cull if I needed to. I've been lucky so far...haven't needed to yet.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm glad, too.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have been criticized..... just once... forgot by who... about freezing bettas. That it is slow and painful. I thought, it slowed down everything (which is why bettas are more sluggish in colder water).... then they'd drift off. Of course like many have said we do not exactly know how a fish feels... There are three methods I know of. One is the freezing, one is smashing their head with a hammer (although mr fishy may not feel it I'd feel terrible x.x), and clove oil/vodka.


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## purplemuffin (Aug 12, 2010)

It's a very tricky thing for sure. I do believe that blunt force is the most humane, though..well, not many of us are capable of that, so we resort to freezing or clove oil methods. Either of those could in fact end up being painful to the fish. But then we also have to balance how much pain the fish would be in if it was left in it's current state to suffer for days, or weeks or even months. Could the one short moment of pain before finally being at peace be more humane than allowing an animal who is going to suffer be in pain for ages. It's tough.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

true... here is a question!!!

Clove oil, in the right dose will knock them out. a higher dose puts them to sleep permanently...

What about the clove oil/vodka method? The fish is asleep... would they still feel the pain of the vodka burning? I was told the vodka burns them.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@Sena:Yed definitely! Vodka is a type of alchohol, which you already know, and as we all know, different alchohols burn. Some burn when on an open cut, so for fish, it would burn as well because they are just like open cuts. Their gills aren't for breathing in alchohol, their gills are most like open cuts because they are so sensitive to water quality. So if (rubbing) achohol burns us when on an open cut, then just imagine how it would burn when they are sitting in it. Also their eyes as well will be burning. So i'm against it completely!

-BL2033


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Ahhh okay  makes more sense without someone yelling at me lol... I've never used that method, and I also do not have vodka so wouldn't matter :lol: I still couldn't bring myself to smash them with a hammer... that's why I have clove oil.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Good! I would never use any type of alcohol for culling and hope others think the same.

-BL2033


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## LittleBettas (Jul 23, 2011)

While I agree that culling deformed fish is neccessary, I have had experiance euthanizing dogs and cats.. and yes, while maybe we can not say for sure animals feel pain, I know that they do feel sorrow, they DO have knowledge of what is happening around them and to them
To say otherwise is to be blind


But I do agee with PurpleMuffin
Could the one short moment of pain before finally being at peace be more humane than allowing an animal who is going to suffer be in pain for ages. It's tough. 

Its a decision one has to make for another living individual, and while many people tend to not try to think of him/her by a name or even as a fellow being, when making the decision on whether or not to end the suffering of another living animal, I choose to name them, I choose to think of them as another living thing who is suffering enough that I choose to help him or her in the only way possible


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I like that  if you give a name to something, you give some human quality to them... I do know lots of people believe fish are "stupid and useless" as said my roommate -.- but they aren't lol. (and I'm certain Spartan knows more than my roommate thinks he'd know!)


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## nochoramet (Oct 2, 2009)

What you have to understand is that fish have a much more primitive brain than dogs or cats do. Mammals may have the capability of grief, sorrow, etc, but a fish does not. They have a much less complex brain, and therefore, a much less complex range of emotions.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well said Nochoramet. They can go over and kill an innocent (for example) 8 month old betta and have no thought of it as wrong or hesitation. Though that is their survival instincts.

These are the main reasons I got into the hobby. I wanted something different.

-BL2033


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## LittleBettas (Jul 23, 2011)

Sure, as far as we know, fish do not, but as humans WE DO
As humans, we should show compassion when we have to kill another livng thing, or if it dies of natural cause, regardless of how primitive it is


Because honestly, if that is the case, why do we bother putting bettas in 5 gallon or even 2 gallon tanks when .5 CAN work?
We do it because, though they are "just" fish, though they are primitive animals, we do care for them


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't think it matters if fish don't... Humans do. Which is why I couldn't smash them with a hammer. of course the fish doesn't know what is going on... but me being me I couldn't do it D:

There is to some point, intelligence in them, sure maybe not as much as a cat, or dog, or human... But as humans we show compassion (and anger) towards primitive creatures, giving them human-like qualities, a name, and a reason to keep them.  

So anyone who literally lacks any compassion to a "stupid useless fish that can't do math" or whatever shouldn't own a fish then... but some do. why? I have no idea. ><


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## nochoramet (Oct 2, 2009)

And I agree about the human part. I would have a difficult time euthing or culling a fish (which is why I'm not going to go into breeding). I'm just pointing out that the betta does not have complex emotions and cannot be anthropomorphised. 

I care about the well being of my betta, I get very attached to them, and I'm not calling them "stupid and useless", I'm saying that they do not hide behind brave faces if they are in pain, they don't put on a show for us, they're fish. They do not percieve pain as we do. They do not think "I hate my life. My back is crooked, it hurts, I wish I would just DIE rather than be in this pain."

I just feel like you guys misinterperated my point lol. I'm not saying that we should not show compassion for our fish, I'm saying that you cannot give human emotions and perceptions to something that does not have them. Personally, I think that culling is necessary, but in less extreme cases, I do not see a problem in adopting out culls that can have a content life as a pet. We should not base it off of thinking that the fish is hiding behind a brave face, but whether it noticibly affects the quality of life the fish leads. He or she won't know any different, to them, that is life. It's us, higher thinking creatures that must make the ethical decisions for them.

Am I making any sense?


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Sena Hansler said:


> I don't think it matters if fish don't... Humans do. Which is why I couldn't smash them with a hammer. of course the fish doesn't know what is going on... but me being me I couldn't do it D:
> 
> There is to some point, intelligence in them, sure maybe not as much as a cat, or dog, or human... But as humans we show compassion (and anger) towards primitive creatures, giving them human-like qualities, a name, and a reason to keep them.
> 
> So anyone who literally lacks any compassion to a "stupid useless fish that can't do math" or whatever shouldn't own a fish then... but some do. why? I have no idea. ><


The perfect answer to that question is, People think of fish as "Decoration" or as I have heard of before "collection." I decoration is the word that tiks me off most! Its horrible to even think of them as an ornament. I red on this forum before that a member witnessed someone buying a ton of bettas and little tiny bowls for their christmas tree. I was so shocked!

I remember being in a petstore and seeing a couple of kids plus their mother with them, and the owner had his new shipment in and laying on the register table so I can take a look at which I wanted before he decided to open the bags and put them in their bowls. Well the two little kids lifted the bag and SHOOK the fish around. All the mother did was say "why would you do that?" As they left I went over to the bettas and they were twirling, so i told the guy that owned the place and he said "Eh, they'll be alright." I just walked out and told him that I wasn't going to buy from him anymore if he treats his fish that way. Whats the point of having a store that is mostly fish if you dont care much about them! I didn't understand it at all.

-BL2033


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

nochoramet said:


> And I agree about the human part. I would have a difficult time euthing or culling a fish (which is why I'm not going to go into breeding). I'm just pointing out that the betta does not have complex emotions and cannot be anthropomorphised.
> 
> I care about the well being of my betta, I get very attached to them, and I'm not calling them "stupid and useless", I'm saying that they do not hide behind brave faces if they are in pain, they don't put on a show for us, they're fish. They do not percieve pain as we do. They do not think "I hate my life. My back is crooked, it hurts, I wish I would just DIE rather than be in this pain."
> 
> ...


Yes you definitely are!

What i'm trying to say that there are many fish in pet stores that are culls and some need to be culled because of their horrible spines and some with their finnage just terrible. Obviously the breeders dont care and want to make a profit. They need to be culled and people (us) still buy them to give them a better life.

All they know is eat and swim because that is all that's in their head. (Not for all) Especially not for solitary fish.

-BL2033


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## nochoramet (Oct 2, 2009)

Right, I understand where you are coming from. I think that if the fish is severely deformed, it would be kinder to put it out of its misery. But slightly deformed fish, or even fish that just would not contribute to your line should be given a chance to be a pet, rather than culled.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Exactly. It's like saying this about a dog cat ect.

-BL2033


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

Well this is quite the thread. It's nice to see that people are respecting each other's opinions for the most part since this sort of topic can get pretty hairy... 

As you know, BettaLover, I run an "Adopt a Cull" program and I've been very pleased with it thus far. My program mostly includes fish with fin defects like tears or chips, which make them unsellable but perfectly healthy. I also adopt out "midgets" who just need to be on their own so they can grow and prosper. I occasionally give out less pretty fish as well just so I know they will go to a good home. It is mutually understood that culls are pets and should not be bred. Though I have a number of good fish specialty stores around me I still refuse to sell any of my fish to them since it isn't the store that's the problem... it's the uneducated people who are going to buy your littlins' who are going to cause them never ending suffering. I refuse to sell any of my fish to that kind of future. I didn't put hours and hours of sweat and tears into them to make sure they grow up big and strong just to sell them to someone who doesn't value their life. 

Though it is very rare, I do cull serious issues like spinal deformities or swim bladder problems. I use clove oil or feed them to my lizards. However, I don't necessarily believe feeding them to another animal is humane.... Nature is anything but humane. Freezing causes pain and is not an approved method so I don't use it. 

nochoramet- I agree that we need to be careful about applying humane emotions to animals (anthropomorphism). Humans barely understand what other humans are thinking, how are we supposed to know what animals are and aren't thinking? And I've worked with animals long enough that I don't want to know what they think of us!


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## nochoramet (Oct 2, 2009)

+1 to your comment DarkMoon. 

And I totally agree!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

DarkMoon17 said:


> Well this is quite the thread. It's nice to see that people are respecting each other's opinions for the most part since this sort of topic can get pretty hairy...
> 
> As you know, BettaLover, I run an "Adopt a Cull" program and I've been very pleased with it thus far. My program mostly includes fish with fin defects like tears or chips, which make them unsellable but perfectly healthy. I also adopt out "midgets" who just need to be on their own so they can grow and prosper. I occasionally give out less pretty fish as well just so I know they will go to a good home. It is mutually understood that culls are pets and should not be bred. Though I have a number of good fish specialty stores around me I still refuse to sell any of my fish to them since it isn't the store that's the problem... it's the uneducated people who are going to buy your littlins' who are going to cause them never ending suffering. I refuse to sell any of my fish to that kind of future. I didn't put hours and hours of sweat and tears into them to make sure they grow up big and strong just to sell them to someone who doesn't value their life.
> 
> Though it is very rare, I do cull serious issues like spinal deformities or swim bladder problems. I use clove oil or feed them to my lizards. However, I don't necessarily believe feeding them to another animal is humane.... Nature is anything but humane. Freezing causes pain and is not an approved method so I don't use it.


That is exactly the point I was trying to get across. Also I got the "Adopt A Cull" program from you! I call it ACCP or ACC...If there are any culls in the nearest spawn or at all, (the ones who can live their lives normally) will be adopted out. I thought it was an amazing idea to do! It gives a chance for them to live normal PET lives and get all the happiness, TLC and great homes.

-BL2033

-BL2033


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

DarkMoon17 said:


> I agree that we need to be careful about applying humane emotions to animals (anthropomorphism). Humans barely understand what other humans are thinking, how are we supposed to know what animals are and aren't thinking? And I've worked with animals long enough that I don't want to know what they think of us!


I love this.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That is a very interesting way to put it!

-BL2033


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

nochoramet said:


> Right, I understand where you are coming from. I think that if the fish is severely deformed, it would be kinder to put it out of its misery. But slightly deformed fish, or even fish that just would not contribute to your line should be given a chance to be a pet, rather than culled.


Agreed. 
Also, I couldn't smash mine with a hammer, either. Blech!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

... I'm just saying that although fish have been studied enough to know they lack a large range of emotions, humans can still put emotions to the fish... we humanize fish, which then can make it harder to part with them. Same as a cat or dog (to me anyways)

and bettas in small bowls for the christmas tree? wow. sorry to say but people can be quite shallow and inconsiderate... Just because an animal is small, or is "useless" other than a decoration, doesn't mean humans have any right to walk all over mother nature. 
I moved yesterday and all I got was rude comments from my roommate's friend, about fish. About... they aren't animals, they are useless, ugly, waste of money and time etc. And I don't care - he's not the one owning one and he never should with that lame mindset :lol: He'd be the one who'd smash any fish with a hammer because it doesn't purr, you can't hold it, it doesn't fetch ><

I'd also like to note, that I had so many people coming to adopt my rescue bettas, because 1. they were free 2. they were healthy 3. I did it to rescue fish who'd otherwise die, get flushed, get smashed. And they liked that fact, that I rescued these fishies.  The one who came for Nemphis loved his coloring, loved how he was all healthy even after getting fin rot. The one who got Reggie said I was a good person for healing him up.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@Sena, I think you are a good person as well. Very helpful. I could never hold a "betta hospital" because treating fish are one of my weaknesses. I think it would be too hard on me and torture to the fish that I try to rescue. I had just one rescue in my life and she turned out to be a HUGE male HMPK. His fins grew almost ten times in size. He really looked like a little helpless female. He later was one of my breeding males. Great fins and beautiful color on him. He reminded me of the 4th of july. When I rescued him he was an ugly gray color and I thought "hey, i'll give this a try. You never know what face true beauty takes on.


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

I really like your "rescue a cull" program. I just might steal the idea when mine are ready to find homes.:lol:


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> @Sena, I think you are a good person as well. Very helpful. I could never hold a "betta hospital" because treating fish are one of my weaknesses. I think it would be too hard on me and torture to the fish that I try to rescue. I had just one rescue in my life and she turned out to be a HUGE male HMPK. His fins grew almost ten times in size. He really looked like a little helpless female. He later was one of my breeding males. Great fins and beautiful color on him. He reminded me of the 4th of july. When I rescued him he was an ugly gray color and I thought "hey, i'll give this a try. You never know what face true beauty takes on.


Well, that's where my colorless girls came from :roll: all were left there for months without getting cleaned half full bowl things. they've grown double since I got them, but they have all stopped growing now. I fear they've been stunted to a point they'll never grow properly. Rose is still only... maybe an inch. and stopped growing... nobody wants them because they are small, ugly and pathetic. right? :roll: Everyone wanted my rescues because they figured it was better to adopt a healthy, healed betta than a sickly "who knows when it will die -turn around- IT DIED!" betta from the store.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

agreed!


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## cajunamy (Apr 28, 2011)

Wow this has gone WAY off of what the OP was asking. OP wasn't really asking for a discussion on ethics, just ways of euthanasia. 

A breeder has to decide for themselves what they are most comfy with for culling. One person may be comfortable with decapitation, another may not and may not have access to clove oil or large carnivorous fish so freezing it their only option.

I personally bought an angelfish for fry culls, and I also have clove oil on hand for fish too large for him to handle. I have not yet had to cull any fry, but I know it will happen eventually. 

If you decide to breed, and to breed continually, you are going to have to deal with culling even when the fish are not deformed/sick. Sometimes you will just have too many fish to handle that you can not even give away. It's just the nature of the hobby. If you can't handle culling, you shouldn't be breeding. If you breed, you are responsible for every life you bring into this world, including if you can not rehome a fish and can not adequately care for it yourself because you have too many others to care for. It happens, whether you agree with it or not, so please don't start a discussion on this point.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

cajunamy said:


> If you decide to breed, and to breed continually, you are going to have to deal with culling even when the fish are not deformed/sick. Sometimes you will just have too many fish to handle that you can not even give away. It's just the nature of the hobby. If you can't handle culling, you shouldn't be breeding. If you breed, you are responsible for every life you bring into this world, including if you can not rehome a fish and can not adequately care for it yourself because you have too many others to care for. It happens, whether you agree with it or not, so please don't start a discussion on this point.


Quoted for TRUTH.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@1fish2fish: If I was to see that the female may be producing more fry than I honestly can care for, would it be wise to remove the female to minimize the fry number? I have heard this being done with many Thia Breeders. I'm not a Thia breeder obviously, but if I was to ever come across this situation, how would you go about doing this?


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

cajunamy said:


> Wow this has gone WAY off of what the OP was asking. OP wasn't really asking for a discussion on ethics, just ways of euthanasia.
> 
> A breeder has to decide for themselves what they are most comfy with for culling. One person may be comfortable with decapitation, another may not and may not have access to clove oil or large carnivorous fish so freezing it their only option.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point....I guess it takes someone who has been here longer to say sensitive things like this and not get attacked for being insensitive.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

bettalover2033 said:


> @1fish2fish: If I was to see that the female may be producing more fry than I honestly can care for, would it be wise to remove the female to minimize the fry number? I have heard this being done with many Thia Breeders. I'm not a Thia breeder obviously, but if I was to ever come across this situation, how would you go about doing this?


Personally I would never remove the female until they were completely finished. For one it could stress the male or female and they could destroy the nest/eggs, also I just think its better to raise them up and then start culling as they get older.

Up until you start jarring them a spawn of 5 and a spawn of 500 aren't really that different, you're still feeding and water changing one tank. IME at about 4 weeks (which is when I begin transferring to a 10 gal from my 5 gal spawning tub) you can usually see any major deformities and cull. By 8-10 weeks when you start beginning to jar to biggest and most aggressive you can begin to cull for things like wonky fins and color you don't want. Whittle your spawn down to a manageable size from there.

I've known breeders with show champions that were just late bloomers hanging out in the female tanks... Which is why I I prefer not to cull very early. While it is hard having to cull a perfectly healthy fish due to lack of room, for me its better to wait because I can make a better decision about which fish will be best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

killing is killing.
how hard is it.
if you think its to hard to do.
then i recommend that you shouldn't breed.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> killing is killing.
> how hard is it.
> if you think its to hard to do.
> then i recommend that you shouldn't breed.


Excuse me?... Please if you have nothing to contribute, don't do it. I mean that in the nicest way possible. I just don't think that was a "correct" comment to make.

I was personally asking how do OTHERS cull, and another question to a certain member. I have never culled before because I have never had to, but i'm sure I'll need to sooner or later.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> Personally I would never remove the female until they were completely finished. For one it could stress the male or female and they could destroy the nest/eggs, also I just think its better to raise them up and then start culling as they get older.
> 
> Up until you start jarring them a spawn of 5 and a spawn of 500 aren't really that different, you're still feeding and water changing one tank. IME at about 4 weeks (which is when I begin transferring to a 10 gal from my 5 gal spawning tub) you can usually see any major deformities and cull. By 8-10 weeks when you start beginning to jar to biggest and most aggressive you can begin to cull for things like wonky fins and color you don't want. Whittle your spawn down to a manageable size from there.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense. This stress could also lead to death if it is intense enough. I'll definitely won't do this now that I know.

I think I'll look for culls at around the 4-7 week mark and then from that time, I shouldn't have any other culls[that needed to be culled].

Thank you.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

as a breed you will have to cull.
there no escape from it.
trust me on that.
put them to use or take them out quick.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

@Curlyfatbottom: I know that, but I didn't think your comment was relevant because I have stated that I know it's going to happen sooner or later.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

will im just stating the fact.
you will have to cull in every single batch.
unless you let nature take it course.
but you will have a low fry turnout rate.
the more effort you take to caring the frys.
the more you have to cull
when i was trying to keep everything alive i have to cull more then 20% of the fish.
which i still end up with 300+ fish 
i never saw a spawn with high maintain without a single cull.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well I have had many spawns and have never had to cull before. So i can disagree that you will have to cull in every batch.

What do you mean by: "the more effort you take to caring the frys.
the more you have to cull"?

My view on that is, (if you work too hard you will have to cull more fry than you wanted to)?


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

will luck must be on your side then.
produce over 10000 in my time.
with many spawn.
producing ace and sq fish.
with big spawn i always have to cull (200+ fry to adult)
yes culling in some people eyes is different from other.
i cull fish with uneven fin
short body
undesirable color/fin
bent fin
lock jaw
bent back
unhealthy fish
and ect
please if your going to breed
don't pass on bad gene.
if the batch have a high deform fish.
cull the whole batch.
cause it just make more problem with future breeding.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> will luck must be on your side then.
> produce over 10000 in my time.
> with many spawn.
> producing ace and sq fish.
> ...


I agree with you to cull bent backs, locked jaw, unhealthy fish, ect. But I would never cull a perfectly healthy fry even if it has bad fins and horrible colors that I or someone I know wouldnt want. That is what I would call cruelty, but many live by. This is why I would use the "adopt a cull" program.

I don't see the point of having the fish that are in good health, can live normally, and have safe and happy lives, culled. Not everyone wants to breed, and many of us know it isn't wise to breed culls. (If you have even taken the time to understand and read my thread you will know what are my opinions and preferences. 

As I stated before, I believe that fry who are really just undesirable fish, should be given a home even though they have bad fins (for example). Many of us buy culls all the time, if you believe that fish with bad looking fins (ugly), bad color patterns, and/or a "runt" should be culled, I don't suggest you go to a pet store because most of that is what you will see. (Some will be quality fish, but rarely).

Also when you said: "please if your going to breed
don't pass on bad gene." I never said that I wanted to breed any cull (if that is what you were referring to) I will simply let them live as pets. (Not in my home) but many people who are looking for a "pet" will be interested in having one free of charge.

-BL2033


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## DarkMoon17 (Apr 16, 2011)

bettalover2033- You do need to be realistic... It will be impossible to adopt out all of the undesirable fish in a large spawn. With smaller spawns (under 60 or so), it is reasonable to adopt out the fish that cannot be sold because there are not many of them. However. When you have a spawn of 160, like I do, it is physically impossible to adopt out that many fish. There are probably about 80 or so fish in this spawn alone who I would deem "unsellable", mostly because of poor color. I adopt out what I can, but by no means is that all of them. There simply is not enough demand. For one, everyone wants female culls since they are easy to house but it's the males that drain all of your time and recourses. Usually there aren't many cull females at all, just males. Wether I like it or not, I will have to cull some perfectly healthy bettas because I do not have the space or time to take care of all of them. I don't want to, but I'd rather cull them then sell them to a petstore or neglect them. Culling and breeding are hand in hand... it isn't pretty and we can do what we can to limit it, but eventually culling healthy fish will be necessary.


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## GreenTea (Jan 31, 2011)

Well said Darkmoon. I had to cull a 9 day old fry the other day. He or she was spiraling and it was painful to watch them try to get to the top continuously with a deformed swim bladder. Initially I thought well I'll feed him to my goldfish and platys....but when the time came realizing it would more than likely live for awhile in the cold water and suffer, I decided to crush the head and spare the fish panicked cold moments. It's up to each to decide but it is a necessity. I think Darkmoon and Cajun said it best.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

bad gene mean only one or two out of 200 fishs look like a sd fish and sell them as sq price.
get tick off when i buy a fish that don't breed true or high deform rate.
ex
buying a pair of hm
don't get any fish with 180 spread(out of 200 fish)


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

DarkMoon17 said:


> bettalover2033- You do need to be realistic... It will be impossible to adopt out all of the undesirable fish in a large spawn. With smaller spawns (under 60 or so), it is reasonable to adopt out the fish that cannot be sold because there are not many of them. However. When you have a spawn of 160, like I do, it is physically impossible to adopt out that many fish. There are probably about 80 or so fish in this spawn alone who I would deem "unsellable", mostly because of poor color. I adopt out what I can, but by no means is that all of them. There simply is not enough demand. For one, everyone wants female culls since they are easy to house but it's the males that drain all of your time and recourses. Usually there aren't many cull females at all, just males. Wether I like it or not, I will have to cull some perfectly healthy bettas because I do not have the space or time to take care of all of them. I don't want to, but I'd rather cull them then sell them to a petstore or neglect them. Culling and breeding are hand in hand... it isn't pretty and we can do what we can to limit it, but eventually culling healthy fish will be necessary.


I see a better side to that. Thank you. I know that in a spawn with as many as 100 or more there will be at least a few culls, but I don't believe that in EVERY batch of fry, there is a few that need to be culled. If the pair has not bred before and they are either too old or weren't conditioned properly, there will definitely be a lot of culls, but if they are a healthy pair and everything was done right, I see no reason to have as many culls as the other. I'm not saying that there will never be culls if everything was done perfectly.

I am saying from experience that I have had many quality and petstore pairs and have not yet come across to having to cull in the 2 and a half years of breeding. Not as much as a lot of breeders, but I know enough that every spawn doesn't have to have a cull. I say that mostly to insure *Curlyfatbottom*.


@*DarkMoon17*
I know eventually I will have to cull fish that are culls or are healthy fish, if I dont have all the ideal set ups and requirements.

That also goes back to being prepared because you could never have too many tanks when you are breeding. It's like packing a suitcase and going on vacation. You may plan to stay only a week and stay there 3 days longer.

As much as I would like to save every fry out there, I know that I can't. I know that with quality fish I can have from 70-500+ fry. Obviously I dont have much room for over 300 bettas and know for a fact that I can't keep them all, but I will do the best that I can to find as many homes as I can because when breeding, there comes problems and some that are easier said than done. When breeding, I know that it will be impossible to adopt out all the undesirable fry.

The one thing that I would never do is sell or give them away to a pet store! That is just torture to the fish. Not only the pet stores fault, but the people that are looking to have some decoration in their home. After seeing what happens in those stores behind the backs of the employees are ridiculous. Bettas are too easy to mess with because they are kept in small bowls.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

DarkMoon17 said:


> bettalover2033- You do need to be realistic... It will be impossible to adopt out all of the undesirable fish in a large spawn. With smaller spawns (under 60 or so), it is reasonable to adopt out the fish that cannot be sold because there are not many of them. However. When you have a spawn of 160, like I do, it is physically impossible to adopt out that many fish. There are probably about 80 or so fish in this spawn alone who I would deem "unsellable", mostly because of poor color. I adopt out what I can, but by no means is that all of them. There simply is not enough demand. For one, everyone wants female culls since they are easy to house but it's the males that drain all of your time and recourses. Usually there aren't many cull females at all, just males. Wether I like it or not, I will have to cull some perfectly healthy bettas because I do not have the space or time to take care of all of them. I don't want to, but I'd rather cull them then sell them to a petstore or neglect them. Culling and breeding are hand in hand... it isn't pretty and we can do what we can to limit it, but eventually culling healthy fish will be necessary.


Very well said!


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

will when i spawn during late spring and through summer.
my average size spawn 150.
and if i have something im chasing for.
i'll have like 6-10 breeding in a 2 month period.
to reduce the time to get my goal.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I see. That's great. When you say "I'll have 6-10 breeding in a two month period, do you mean breeding pairs? Or Them breeding?


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

6-10 different spawn


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Oh wow.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

yes think how many fish i'll have in 6 month.
power growing them in the first two month then switching there diet.
with space and time with my youth.
i can't manage to house all the fish.
give out 10-20 fish at a time,plus sell and still have to many left over.
creating your own fish will led to a lot of fish.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I personally believe that everyone should do what works for them when it comes to breeding. And that be that. I don't see why these topics have to be brought up. I found forums so much nicer when breeding was not allowed to be discussed. Personally, if I ever breed my Bettas... it won't be a public thing. I'll just do as I do. But I certainly won't breed unless I have the room to keep every single healthy fish I produce. Hence why I have wanted to breed since June and still haven't attempted yet. Males are easy to find homes for here, females not so much. 

Everyone is going to have different views, depending on heart, experience, logic.... this thread is just beating a dead horse lol


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

That sounds good. I just personally don't support power growing fry, any fry for that case, but I don't judge people and have no right to treat you any different because I disagree.

I've read that power growing fry can lead to a fish not living as long as others who weren't power fed.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Pitluvs said:


> I personally believe that everyone should do what works for them when it comes to breeding. And that be that. I don't see why these topics have to be brought up. I found forums so much nicer when breeding was not allowed to be discussed. Personally, if I ever breed my Bettas... it won't be a public thing. I'll just do as I do. But I certainly won't breed unless I have the room to keep every single healthy fish I produce. Hence why I have wanted to breed since June and still haven't attempted yet. Males are easy to find homes for here, females not so much.
> 
> Everyone is going to have different views, depending on heart, experience, logic.... this thread is just beating a dead horse lol


I agree with you. I also wouldn't breed unless I have enough room (as i have satted before) Though this topic is so controversial that it makes people think of everything to avoid a certain part.

I dont understand how the saying relates to the thread. If you explained it, my slow brain my get it then lol. I've No intentions of being rude!


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> I agree with you. I also wouldn't breed unless I have enough room (as i have satted before) Though this topic is so controversial that it makes people think of everything to avoid a certain part.
> 
> I dont understand how the saying relates to the thread. If you explained it, my slow brain my get it then lol. I've No intentions of being rude!


The last line?? 
Don't worry about being rude or anything haha I'm not in an aggressive mood or picking up on moods that are not here haha I only fight with Bettas Rules anyways


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes the last line that said:

"this thread is just beating a dead horse"


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

will beating on a dead horse will pass up the time.
bored at my shop.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Breeding and keeping go hand in hand IMO.....while you don't have to breed fish to be considered a good fish keeper-I also don't think there is anything wrong with breeding this or any species of fish in the home-be it for profit, experience, creation of your own line or keeping an endangered species alive due to habitat destruction.....granted the domesticated Betta splendens most of us keep in our home are not endangered-but the wild cousins habitat is decreasing...

I think what is important when you breed this and any species is to be responsible and respectful of the creatures in your care.....have a plan for not just the breeding project- but a plan for the offspring.

I think sharing experiences is important too and a great way to learn from others in a community with like interest, while we all will not agree-this diversity is what makes forums like this a great learning tool.

The fish keeping hobby is not an exact science in a lot of areas-Lots of different ways to keep, breed, rear fry of this species-its finding what works for you, your fish and what you have on hand-and by coming together and sharing in a respectful manner-opening our minds-thinking outside the box in some cases...we can learn from the diversity within our community and its okay to have a different opinion and we should all respect them and agree to disagree.....


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Pitluvs said:


> The last line??
> Don't worry about being rude or anything haha I'm not in an aggressive mood or picking up on moods that are not here haha I only fight with Bettas Rules anyways


Yeah, I only get aggressive when I'm doing special favors for my friends on the forum. lol


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> Breeding and keeping go hand in hand IMO.....while you don't have to breed fish to be considered a good fish keeper-I also don't think there is anything wrong with breeding this or any species of fish in the home-be it for profit, experience, creation of your own line or keeping an endangered species alive due to habitat destruction.....granted the domesticated Betta splendens most of us keep in our home are not endangered-but the wild cousins habitat is decreasing...
> 
> I think what is important when you breed this and any species is to be responsible and respectful of the creatures in your care.....have a plan for not just the breeding project- but a plan for the offspring.
> 
> ...


Well said! I think the most important part of having such a diverse forum such as this one is keeping the discussion in a civil manner and now where one treats another differently because they disagree. Also One of the most troubled things on this forum is that some of us don't know how to take respectful criticism correctly because they feel that the person is going against them and are doing it on purpose. I know this from experience because this is the first and only forum I have ever been on. I took all comments about how I was keeping my first betta in a wrong container and felt that no one even said anything about what I was trying to express, but as I learned more about them, I noticed that i was just reading them in a negative way and didn't take into consideration that they were trying to help me.

When you said: "I think what is important when you breed this and any species is to be responsible and respectful of the creatures in your care."

I say the same thing all the time, if the person doesn't try to take into consideration that the fish has a purpose other than making them money and stop treating them as cattle, they might actually be able to perfect the fish or animal that they are breeding and give the respect that they deserve. Many people just don't completely understand them like most of us do.

-BL2033


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

dramaqueen said:


> Yeah, I only get aggressive when I'm doing special favors for my friends on the forum. lol


Haha! Well I ask you to do so much and trust me if you are getting aggressive, you do a heck of a job hiding it! lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

lol!! Thanks!


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

bettalover2033 said:


> Yes the last line that said:
> 
> "this thread is just beating a dead horse"


Oh that! haha It's an old saying, best way to describe it is with a online search:



> Flogging a dead horse _(alternatively beating a dead horse in some parts of the Anglophone world)_ is an idiom that means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile; or that to continue in any endeavour (physical, mental, etc.) is a waste of time as the outcome is already decided.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yeah I've stopped posting breeding logs :lol: but it's for me to decide how and when to breed certain fish, and aim for what I want to aim to. It doesn't matter if I "do something wrong" in eyes of others, everyone does their own thing their own way - whichever way they feel is best.

If I have to cull, I try culling them when they start showing certain signs of problems. Such as one fry had a bent spine, and couldn't swim very well. She/he just got fed to an aggressive fish.... I'm actually finding it harder to find a good male who'll 1. breed and 2. take care of the fry and 3. produce good fry.

How does power feeding work?? I've seen 3 month old fish look like 6 month old fish, colorful and all, but most spawns from home breeders I've seen are just getting colors, or still have stripes.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Breeding have 3 main rule to follow by
Water quality
Genetic
Food 
Will there more
Temp/light also play a role to
Feed them fatty food with high protein.(wormy food)
Temp around 78-80 so the fry stay active
12-14 of light 
the down fall is that the fin won't b as long.
Build a fatty line under anal fin.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Only problem I find is my male won't breed :lol: he prefers swimming with the female (all 3 tried females were completely vertical with submission stripes, fat with eggs etc) :lol: so I don't have to worry about culling yet lol.


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