# Plakat x Veiltail or Crowntail x Veiltail



## CarmanDirda

I've bred bettas a few times now, but never crossed tail types.

What fin forms should I expect with a male plakat/dragonscale and a veiltail female?


Male: Apollo








Female: Jewel









Also, is there any special considerations or warnings for breeding these two, based on type?


Same questions for breeding a male crowntail with Jewel.

He's a bit young now, but when he grows I want to breed them together. They like eachother quite a bit already, and when they were housed as neighbors he blew a bubble nest and showed off to her for a while - and she was very interested (but I wasn't ready for a new batch of babies yet).


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## indjo

Theoretically: 

PK + VT = mostly VT. You may also get PK (wild style), and a mix - not VT nor PK, also round tails.

Dragon scale + non drgn = dragon geno which may physically show either type. 
If it shows drgn scaling, it won't be 100%. Only partial

CT + VT = mostly VT. You will have some half CT or CT geno which will look messy - they'll have uneven web reduction.

What are your goals....


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## CarmanDirda

The plakat sounds like a better match, then. I've heard CT mixes don't always turn out well. How true is that, and why? Besides them being "messy". Are deformities increased? I'll certainly avoid any mixes that run a high risk of that.

My goal, as usual, is to have a successful line of bettas that are healthy and attractive. I've only bred pure VT x VT and HM x HM. I usually sell to other breeders, but more than half I've had already from spawning went to homes as pets (mostly in the area I live, I've never shipped anywhere).

I do plan on keeping some of them this time, though, as pets or for future breeding, if it's successful enough.


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## indjo

Attractive is an abstract word. What I find attractive may not be so to you and vise versa. In any case, I will comment according to form.

When working on a certain line, sometimes cross breeding is inevitable. Specially if the form is unavailable in your area. Though crossing CT to anything will create messy fins in F1 and F2, but if you work yourself through you could create something unavailable thus can easily rehome them. For example; CTHMPK - Short fin with web reduction and a 180* spread.

Mixing VT to PK will not create messy fins. But it may create unclassified forms - too long to be PK but too short to be VT. Yes you may create long finned round tails - this is perhaps the most logical direction to go. The question is, do you want them?

It's up to you to decide the direction to breed for. Oh, neither mixes create deformities I know of, unless of course, they carry deformed genes.


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## CarmanDirda

Alright. So basically if I go VTCT there will be a lot more work and breeding (theoretically) involved in making something unique or favorable. Makes sense.

I'm willing to put in the effort for it, and curious to see results, but I don't have room for all the breeders to save or a high amount of unsold fry like that sounds like it'll produce.

I do like the idea of the VTPK, though, and I would probably keep some of the babies whether I want to breed them or not. They sounds a lot more attractive, and a new thing in my area will catch some eyes - and hopefully it will online, too.

None of my fish have known deformities, thank goodness, so sounds like I should be in the clear there ( aside from the occassions that always appear in fry  culling is an unfavorable part that sadly must be done ).


Well, thank you. 
I'm going to see how interested people in my area and online would be in this then.


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## indjo

If you don't have the room for tons of them, I'd suggest you stick to breeding HM. Concentrate on one definite color and try to improve their fins - create show quality. IMO they're easier to rehome.

You could cross breed them to double tails to improve their dorsal size and form. Or to VT to try lengthen their fins. But any cross breeding will mean caring for more breeding pairs.


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## CarmanDirda

I know HM are popular. Bred them once and the babies practically flew out the window once I started selling. Sadly, my breeding pair got infected and died when I unknowingly bought a sick fish. Had it secluded a week and all seemed normal, but then when I added him, 2 days later I had a handful of dead bettas, and the newbie was the first to go.

Anyways, I'm looking for more breeding pairs. I have room, but I mean for so many risks of never to be sold fish. Some of the less "attractive" bettas I've given to friends free, but unless all the uglies are girls I may have a problem if I have over 10 boys not go away. I'd have to upgrade space in case the next fry come in a massive wave.

I'll go with my best options at the moment. Won't be breeding for at least a week anyway, because I need a new tank and setup. Just trying to plan ahead.


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## indjo

CarmanDirda;993551Anyways said:


> I may have a problem if I have over 10 boys not go away[/B]. I'd have to upgrade space in case the next fry come in a massive wave.


This is my point. You might not be able to rehome them if you cross bred.

I will support you (and anyone) which ever direction you choose to go. Breeding ... or anything bettas for that matter is addictive. You start with one then you want another, then you want to experiment..... and so on. Eventually you'll be over your head. I know I am ... lol. And I'm not even cross breeding anymore. So be prepared :lol:

Sorry about your collection. I've lost all of my collection a few times. Very frustrating - have to start from scratch again.

Best of luck.


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## Amphibianite

Hmm Sorry to wade in late on this topic, but I have to say the genetics of crossing fins interests me. I am a new breeder and am starting simple with my first spawn in the works as we speak of an HMPK x HMPK simple enough (in the terms of fin type to breed not breeding in general) 
But a spawn I have been considering is an HM x CT to create a HMCT wide spread on fins but with the web reduction of CT

On the topic of this thread I was curious on the CT X VT as well. Would it be possible in a few generations to create the long flowing look of a VT with the web reduction of a CT?


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## CarmanDirda

I think if I do crossbreed, I'll avoid VTCT, but the PKVT would be eaten up. I see a lot of people interested in them, because they're not as abnormal.



Amphibianite said:


> Hmm Sorry to wade in late on this topic, but I have to say the genetics of crossing fins interests me. I am a new breeder and am starting simple with my first spawn in the works as we speak of an HMPK x HMPK simple enough (in the terms of fin type to breed not breeding in general)
> But a spawn I have been considering is an HM x CT to create a HMCT wide spread on fins but with the web reduction of CT
> 
> On the topic of this thread I was curious on the CT X VT as well. Would it be possible in a few generations to create the long flowing look of a VT with the web reduction of a CT?


I've seen HMCT that turn on nice, but of course, it's all about good breeding and luck, and not all will be perfect. I've seen some other breeders successful with them, but it may take a few generations to perfect it. I personally want to try it out myself when I can.

CTVTs from what I've learned here and elsewhere may turn out alright, but are more abnormal. I actually researched it a bit and some looked more like uneven CTs, pure VTs with a little spike, and some downright weird. I think they're a mix to avoid.


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## Wolfboy51

yeah i saw a VTCT (at least i think it was) and it had curvy fins not like a CT's and spikey but wavy. but i dont know it could just be another type of betta. what would you get with a HM X VT (male being the half-moon Veil tail being the female)


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## CarmanDirda

I've seen some HMVTs with longer HM-like fins, pure VTs, or almost spade tail looking fish.


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## StarBetta

How about Marble Plakat (Red, blue, white fins and white body with a touch of blue) x Veiltail Female (Brown Body, Red Fins). Or Red/ Blue Multicolor/Marble Veiltail x Female (from last question)


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## CarmanDirda

PKVT, like said in earlier posts are mostly VTs or long finned PKs - I researched it a bit myself. A lot of the tails were almost like Round Tails.

As for paterns, I think marble patterns are dominant, but may not show up until later in life. The betta colors may change as they get older - or even well after you think they're past that age. Marbles are unpredictable. I HAVE had experience with them. Some people are pleased with the changes, but others find it unfavorable.

I personally like it, but there are still some in the fry who may not get it. There's just no way to know until they've lived out their life. But all will be carriers.


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