# Leaving the Dad to raise the babies



## Logic (Jan 7, 2016)

Hello All,

I am super excited about getting my giant Betta in a couple of weeks. I was doing some research on Betta breeding and I found a very interesting article. It was about someone leaving the young with the Male betta to raise. Apparently this person was successful and the source seems legit. Back before college I kept cichlids and by far my favorite part about keeping cichlids was watching a pair of dedicated parents guard a cloud of fry. I am interested if anybody has attempted this?

This is the article 
http://www.bettysplendens.com/leaving-father-with-fry-method.html
http://www.bettysplendens.com/leaving-father-with-fry-method-part-ii.html


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## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

All breeders leave the male to raise the fry, that's how bettas do it. The male will chase the female away and even attack and kill her if she can't get away. If left with the eggs the female will eat them more often than not.
There are lots of posts and a very good sticky on this forum about breeding and raising bettas if you want to learn more.


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

I want to share this experience i had about leaving Dad to look aftet the fry for along time, i did this, i manage to successfylly raised over 300 frys, they are hmpk plakats.
I put the father with the fry over 2.5 half month.
My set up tank was a 50 cm x 60 cm x 30cm high tank with about 15 cm water height, i put some water weeds inside. I feed them water fleas/daphnia pullex untill fry are about 1 month old then i switch to mosquitoes larvae and live tubifex.
The good thing about this method , father seems to have a maximum grow rate, when the male is spawned he was about 3 cm bo, when i finally take him out, he's over 4.5cm bo ( i think its 5cm bo, cause i remember this male is huge, he was my alpha male, gave me over 1000-ish adult fry from multiple spawn, very good genetics, all fry is strong and have very giod immune system)
The down side about this method for breeders is maybe for putting the male too long to look after fry make you cant spawn him repeteadly on very short period.
I persoonally think this method is good but you need a very good male with fatherhood instict.

This is how i see male with father hood instinct, when eggs are spawn, he will tend the egss diligently, seldom stray away from nest, you wont see scattered eggs, and he will often seen below nest making up that water waves to suply more oxygen or to keep eggs clean with his ear fin (pectoral?those pair fins he have near gills).
When eggs hatched, you will see very little to almost none fry scatterred at bottom, and when they are free swimming, you will see this habit from a good dad, he always try to collect them all below his nest.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Male should tend to nest, eggs, and fry. Unfortunately no one told them that. So many are not only bad fathers, but also psychotic egg/fry eaters. 

It is safer to keep known good fathers long-term with fry. As stated above, we can assume those that are diligent tending to nest, eggs, and fry will be good fathers. However it isn't always as such. Some may initially be diligent, but later let fry swim freely. These fathers will not feed fry thus should be taken out since he will only add to ammonia build up. if he keeps tending to fry even after free swimming, then he should be a good father.

Keep in mind that if the spawn is important to you, it would be best not to take any chances and remove male after fry is free swimming.


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## Logic (Jan 7, 2016)

Witchipoo said:


> All breeders leave the male to raise the fry, that's how bettas do it. The male will chase the female away and even attack and kill her if she can't get away. If left with the eggs the female will eat them more often than not.
> There are lots of posts and a very good sticky on this forum about breeding and raising bettas if you want to learn more.


Yes I know the Male tends to the young but most people from what I have seen remove the male after the fry are a couple of days old. I am referring to letting the male tend to the fry for many months.



liamthen said:


> I want to share this experience i had about leaving Dad to look aftet the fry for along time, i did this, i manage to successfylly raised over 300 frys, they are hmpk plakats.
> I put the father with the fry over 2.5 half month.
> My set up tank was a 50 cm x 60 cm x 30cm high tank with about 15 cm water height, i put some water weeds inside. I feed them water fleas/daphnia pullex untill fry are about 1 month old then i switch to mosquitoes larvae and live tubifex.
> The good thing about this method , father seems to have a maximum grow rate, when the male is spawned he was about 3 cm bo, when i finally take him out, he's over 4.5cm bo ( i think its 5cm bo, cause i remember this male is huge, he was my alpha male, gave me over 1000-ish adult fry from multiple spawn, very good genetics, all fry is strong and have very giod immune system)
> ...





indjo said:


> Male should tend to nest, eggs, and fry. Unfortunately no one told them that. So many are not only bad fathers, but also psychotic egg/fry eaters.
> 
> It is safer to keep known good fathers long-term with fry. As stated above, we can assume those that are diligent tending to nest, eggs, and fry will be good fathers. However it isn't always as such. Some may initially be diligent, but later let fry swim freely. These fathers will not feed fry thus should be taken out since he will only add to ammonia build up. if he keeps tending to fry even after free swimming, then he should be a good father.
> 
> Keep in mind that if the spawn is important to you, it would be best not to take any chances and remove male after fry is free swimming.


Thank you both for your input. I am less interested in raising 300 fry(I am not a breeder) and would be more interested in raising 30 or so fry instead. It would be a really cool behavior to watch. Is it possible that even if a male shows bad parental behavior that he can learn to be a better parent? Through trial and error? Or is it purely genetic?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Giant x giant does not produce 100% giant. Few will be giant, some bigger than usual, many regular. If you limit the spawn to 30, when their gene pool is over 1300, your chances of producing giants will be slim - NOT impossible, just slim.

I can understand your reasoning, wanting the experience and everything. But that's how they are. IMO it would be best you produce as many as possible then sell/give away what you don't want.


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## Detectorist (Jan 8, 2016)

In nature, the male stays with the fry. He's always around.


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## Missinasworld (Aug 26, 2015)

I always take the male out after the fry are free swimming, But i recently went to clesn out a 3gal tank that housed one of my breeder males, and found a runty fry that had been living with his dad for at least 3nmonths! I never saw it in the tank, must have been in his mouth when i moved him from the spawning tank. Sadly this male suffered so much fin damage from the female, he became sick and had to be put down. But his little runty baby is now in a 10gal tub with 2 other smaller fry. 
Other than this, i have not left a male with his fry once they are free swimming, but i beleive a good male could be left in...not that im going to do that.


Missina


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## Logic (Jan 7, 2016)

indjo said:


> Giant x giant does not produce 100% giant. Few will be giant, some bigger than usual, many regular. If you limit the spawn to 30, when their gene pool is over 1300, your chances of producing giants will be slim - NOT impossible, just slim.
> 
> I can understand your reasoning, wanting the experience and everything. But that's how they are. IMO it would be best you produce as many as possible then sell/give away what you don't want.


I completely forgot about that statistic I have read that here somewhere(It may have actually been from you in another post). I guess my question is at what age can you tell the giants from the regulars? I am not super interested in selling giants per say, just good quality Bettas if I breed them.



Detectorist said:


> In nature, the male stays with the fry. He's always around.


Something I apparently did not realize. I have always read that the male abandons the young sometime after they hatch.



Missinasworld said:


> I always take the male out after the fry are free swimming, But i recently went to clesn out a 3gal tank that housed one of my breeder males, and found a runty fry that had been living with his dad for at least 3nmonths! I never saw it in the tank, must have been in his mouth when i moved him from the spawning tank. Sadly this male suffered so much fin damage from the female, he became sick and had to be put down. But his little runty baby is now in a 10gal tub with 2 other smaller fry.
> Other than this, i have not left a male with his fry once they are free swimming, but i beleive a good male could be left in...not that im going to do that.
> 
> 
> Missina


I just want to say as a disclaimer I am not a breeder just a hobbyist interested in watching the breeding behavior of Bettas and possibly selling/giving away some fry on the side if I can. I do not have the facilities to house a large number of Bettas, that is why this fact interest me so much. It allows me to see the breeding behavior without having to sacrifice a ton of space to raise hundreds of fry. The fact that bettas raised with their parents seemed to be stronger and larger is also an cool fact(according to the article).

I think its really fascinating because there is a parallel with other fish like say angelfish. Most people breed angelfish and take the fry from the parents so angelfish have a reputation of being bad parents. But when allowed to raise their fry(assuming they do not eat them) the fry grow faster and larger in the parent's care. Of course you do not get as much fry as you would if you had pulled the fry from the parents but again I am not a breeder just a hobbyist so numbers are not super important to me.


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

Well, it can be done, just after spawning eggs done ,you can remove half the eggs with a tea spoon, read this somewhere, a breeder put out some eggs to have a controlled number or fry


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## SusieG (Oct 19, 2015)

I really wanted to leave my make with his fry, seems like about 80. ( Also seems like all the eggs hatched! I didn't see the spawning so maybe he eat the bad eggs? Not sure. He was so good with them! The eggs where scattered after spawning but he moved them to the back left side of the tank and tucked them away. Once they were free swimming he would grab them and keep putting them back. So cute lol they would just go right back to swimming away from the nest. He would grab several at a tie and blow them back, then seem annoyed when they would swim away. This is my first spawn so I didn't want to risk leaving him, but for I may try with his next spawning.


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## Logic (Jan 7, 2016)

liamthen said:


> Well, it can be done, just after spawning eggs done ,you can remove half the eggs with a tea spoon, read this somewhere, a breeder put out some eggs to have a controlled number or fry


So your saying take some fry away and leave some to the father to kind of see what he does? To ensure that at least some fry survive? 



SusieG said:


> I really wanted to leave my make with his fry, seems like about 80. ( Also seems like all the eggs hatched! I didn't see the spawning so maybe he eat the bad eggs? Not sure. He was so good with them! The eggs where scattered after spawning but he moved them to the back left side of the tank and tucked them away. Once they were free swimming he would grab them and keep putting them back. So cute lol they would just go right back to swimming away from the nest. He would grab several at a tie and blow them back, then seem annoyed when they would swim away. This is my first spawn so I didn't want to risk leaving him, but for I may try with his next spawning.


Thanks for your post. If you do decide to leave the fry with dad I would love to see how it goes.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Logic said:


> I completely forgot about that statistic I have read that here somewhere(It may have actually been from you in another post). I guess my question is at what age can you tell the giants from the regulars? I am not super interested in selling giants per say, just good quality Bettas if I breed them.


Ime, you can't. Like regular batches, giant batches grow according to . . . "alpha" hierarchy. Those less intimidated or more adaptive will eat more and grow faster. But those with incomplete giant genes will suddenly stop growing (actually they don't stop growing, only seems that way because of very slow growth rate). On the other hand a runt that carries better giant genes will eventuallh out grow these alphas.

I usually separate by size and rearrange group if any grows faster or slower. I usually select to rehome after 4 months. By then, the giants should reach the minimum giant size. Though previous runts can out grow these, the chances are slim.

. . . . 

I used to often keep father with fry, at least till 2 months. Unfortunately I don't have good pictures to show you. Hope these are good enough. . . please excuse the dirty tank. I use a different method.

View attachment 695945


View attachment 695953


View attachment 695961


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## liamthen (Dec 18, 2015)

-So your saying take some fry away and leave some to the father to kind of see what he does? To ensure that at least some fry survive? -

No , i mean before the eggs hatched , easier for you, you can feed the eggs you take out to other fish, that will make you have less spawn and still able to observe all the ritual of male take caring his fry, to be honest i love to just stand there for 15-20 minutes watching, its a feast to the eye , or idk maybe its just me, since i do really love this whole bettas thing since i was a kid.

More over, do not take out fry after they hatched, you might possibly stress the father for the disruption.


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## Logic (Jan 7, 2016)

indjo said:


> Ime, you can't. Like regular batches, giant batches grow according to . . . "alpha" hierarchy. Those less intimidated or more adaptive will eat more and grow faster. But those with incomplete giant genes will suddenly stop growing (actually they don't stop growing, only seems that way because of very slow growth rate). On the other hand a runt that carries better giant genes will eventuallh out grow these alphas.
> 
> I usually separate by size and rearrange group if any grows faster or slower. I usually select to rehome after 4 months. By then, the giants should reach the minimum giant size. Though previous runts can out grow these, the chances are slim.
> 
> ...


The pictures are just fine thank you. What do you mean by you use a different method? Sorry for all the questions. DO giant bettas have a shorter window for when they need to be spawned. One thing I find interesting about bettas is they get too old rather quickly to be spawned(Within like a year I have read). Is it the same deal with females?



liamthen said:


> -So your saying take some fry away and leave some to the father to kind of see what he does? To ensure that at least some fry survive? -
> 
> No , i mean before the eggs hatched , easier for you, you can feed the eggs you take out to other fish, that will make you have less spawn and still able to observe all the ritual of male take caring his fry, to be honest i love to just stand there for 15-20 minutes watching, its a feast to the eye , or idk maybe its just me, since i do really love this whole bettas thing since i was a kid.
> 
> More over, do not take out fry after they hatched, you might possibly stress the father for the disruption.


I see what you mean. And I certainly understand watching the behavior I have seen my share of youtube videos over the last couple days just watching the whole process its pretty cool and very unique to bettas.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Most people breed in new/clean tank and water. I do the opposite because I have never succeeded using new water except for artificial hatching. My tank and water are usually aged for 3-4 weeks with dead organic matter. Hopefully by the time I breed, the tank will have micro critters. And I seldom siphon floor, usually do that when I do a 90% water change which might be 2-4 weeks. . . . my water source is unstable so massive water changes may do more harm than good.

Actually as long as they are healthy and active, they can be bred - even 3 yr olds. However, to be safe it is better to breed them in smaller and shallow water, like a 1g 30cm square Tupperware. 

Giants are basically the same BUUUT as they get bigger, they are harder to breed. Females become reluctant, while males become lazy and neglect the eggs. 

5-5.5cm (BO) females will breed normally. But 6 and larger may never breed.
Males are usually always willing to breed. However 6cm+ often do not care for eggs/fry.

I'm not saying they are always like this, only most are. In my 2-3 yrs working with giants, I've only had 2 or 3 good fathers and 1 easy to breed 6cm female. . . . so bgetting them to spawn can be frustrating. Then their fry will eat like crazy.


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