# Critique my new HM boy please



## Kiara1125

I have a picture and video of him. He's an 8 ray HM and I was wondering about what you guys think about his fins and colors. When he flares out completely, his dorsal goes straight up and his anal fin points forward. So, please critique my boy, since I'm also thinking about possibly breeding him if I find a good female HM.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums...1A44164-8602-000008821E1B6F64_zps22527a15.mp4


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## cowboy

Gorgeous


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## lilnaugrim

Top line doesn't look to bad, slight curve which is alright.
Fins aren't the cleanest but not terribly messy either.
All fins meet however Caudal is too short/anal too long.
Ventrals don't look like they're split so that's good.
Shorty stubby first rays on his dorsal which is bad.
As color goes he's a super messy tri-band color or Butterfly, either way too messy.

And that's all I have ^_^


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## Kiara1125

So, maybe get a nice, clean butterfly girl with tall first rays on the dorsal and a shorter anal fin? And maybe try to get some clean cut fins?


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## Kiara1125

If I were to breed Fall Out, would either of these females be god for him?

Female #1
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1371293233

Female #2
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1371683407


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## lilnaugrim

If you want to keep the butterfly pattern going then no, neither would be good. The first girl has good form except anal fin is a little long but otherwise fine. He would balance out and make the dorsal be able to touch the caudal.

Then the second girl is all sorts messy colorwise lol but her form is great, fins all touch, nice clean edging! However no butterfly, she would just introduce more marbling and then whatever her other dormant genes bring in.

Both are also Dragons scales so you would end up with fry that have spotty scale coverage like these two here who are sisters:


I personally like the spotty look but I know for showing and other breeding purposes it's not good. If you bred to a full mask there's more of a chance that they will get some better dragon scaling but also half of them will just look like the father anyway


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## Kiara1125

Yeah, I had a spotted blue/red dragon girl. I loved her coloring and she looked fine to me.


























Also, should I go with fins that the second girl had? And what color would you suggest? Should I try to fix the butterflying to make it more clean?


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## lilnaugrim

well what are you trying to breed here? Do you want more butterfly patterns, do you want fins that are all equal and meet? Do you want just a marble line and not care about the fins?


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## Kiara1125

Well, I want clean fins, but I like the patterns of marbles. I could try to keep the butterfly pattern, but I'm not sure on how clean I'll be able to get it. I've noticed that, around here, the plain bettas are left behind and the marbles are snatched up pretty quickly. I actually have people (and my lfs ) who wanted me to breed my dragon female. Unfortunately, she died a few days ago. :'(

Anyways, I have a place for the fry to go where they'll find good quality homes. I'm trying to figure out what would be the best approach to breeding a good strain.


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## lilnaugrim

Okay so you'll have to chose lol, marble or butterfly pattern? Most butterfly's carry the marble gene but if you want to exentuate it you'll need to find another clean butterfly female to go with him. Or if you don't care, any marble girl will do. Preferably one with all her fins touching and the anal not longer than the caudal. So in other words you want to extend his caudal so it's not so short.

Also I'd find a female that has 4 or 6 ray's instead of 8, you might end up with Rose tails in which case. That's more for breeding and showing purposes but if they're just being sold to the LFS or people as pets then you can breed a girl with 8 rays but nothing more.


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## Kiara1125

I'll probably go with 4 rays, since I have yet to see a 6 ray. lol

I'm thinking that I'll go with the marble gene. Since I thought that he was a blue dragon at first, I might try to add that into it. I could try for a marble that is a butterfly as well, since that gene/color scheme will be carried on, most likely.

Since I like his color, I think I might stick with the whole blue/green with the red underneath. I like it.

And, question, what do you think about this girl for breeding purposes? I can't see if she's got 2 rays or 4, but I believe that she might be a delta.


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## lilnaugrim

I like her! Nice long body which will balance his spine out very well. Dorsal doesn't meet the caudal but that's alright, yes she's 4 ray's and she may be a HM, you'll have to get her to flare to see what she really is. Anal is nice an short, ventrals are full and not split. I think she would compliment him well at least in the Form department haha


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## Kiara1125

Well, she's my Naussicaä.  I got her at walmart and I believe she's a HMEE. She's flared out completely before, but she hides a lot. She's really tiny, so I'll try to get her to grow nice. I think she's only 4 months old, TBH. I would love to breed them together. ^.^

Also, flared out, her dorsal and caudal are pretty even. It's her anal that's just a TAD longer than her caudal, but I think that's fine.

One more thing, she RARELY flares She's the sweetest betta I have in my sorority and she matches up with the sweet personality of my german blue ram. They actually tend to hang out together and it's so adorable. xD


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## lilnaugrim

Actually you'll want to keep her smaller than him so that he can wrap properly. If she's the same size or bigger he won't be able to wrap well around her. So small is fine and 4 months is great! You can spawn after the 3.5 month mark when they are sexually mature.

She might be partial EE but the pecs aren't long enough, at least not in this photo that I see. I also have a DT that has colored pecs but they aren't big enough to be considered an EE.

She'll probably flare when you put her in a cup and put her next to Fall Out lol, females generally only flare to other males except for the occasional feisty female


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## Kiara1125

Yeah, her pecs got torn and bit in my sorority, unfortunately. She was pretty!

I'll try to make her flare sometime this week then. I won't be able to move him into his section of the 10g until Monday. I'll be sure to post pictures of both of them though.  I would love to breed them, but mason jars cost soooo incredibly much around here and I would like to add more money to my PayPal account so i can go on Aquabid and buy some microworm cultures. I need to learn how to get infusoria growing too. I tried once before, but I think it failed since it was in the middle of winter. xD


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## lilnaugrim

You could buy a bunch of these: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Aqua-Culture-Betta-View-Aquarium-With-Base-.5-Gallon/17248150

You can also use 2 liter soda bottles with the tops cut off! Here's a cute little site I just found lol http://bettacrazed.angelcities.com/breeding.html


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## Kiara1125

Thanks! That's a great idea with the soda bottles. I think I might do that, since I have a lot of 1 liter water bottles. That should suffice, correct?


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah it should be alright, 2 liters will give them some more room though, might be easier to change too.


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## MattsBettas

She's got two rays, bad form, and you will only produce veiltails or roundtails by breeding her.


If you are set on breeding your male I would look for a nice girl from a breeder.

And 1l is really small. I would go with 1/2 a gallon.


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## Kiara1125

Yeah, I'll try to collect some--I mean ... a lot. xD


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## lilnaugrim

Matt I'm 99% sure that they split again at the edges. Granted she still doesn't have the clean cut fins though.


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## MattsBettas

I can't tell very well but it sure looks like two rays to me. Either way, her form is not very good...


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## lilnaugrim

Why isn't it good? Just because the dorsal doesn't meet caudal?


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## Kiara1125

I'm pretty positive she splits again. I know that she doesn't have clean cut fins, but I'll try to get another picture. How is her form bad?


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## MattsBettas

- Stubby ventrals
- Rounded anal
- Caudal does not come anywhere close to 180
- Fins don't match up


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## Kiara1125

She's not fully flared, so that accounts for a lot. I've seen much shorter ventrals, and Fall Out's long ventrals will compensate for that. Also, compared to her other fins, the ventrals look pretty nice in size.


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## lilnaugrim

But she's not flaring so you wouldn't know if she get's to the 180 wouldn't you? I see that she's got some short rays usually indicating super delta, but wouldn't you need a flare pic anyway?

And wouldn't her ventral's balance out his long ones? Or are you talking that they're rounded and don't come to a point?


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## MattsBettas

Don't be so sure traits will balance out... That's often not the case.


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## Kiara1125

Well then how about you explain in detail what you think of her other than stating that she has a bad form. Give details, please.


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## MattsBettas

I already did.


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## lilnaugrim

Yeah but you didn't regard the part about not flaring and I get that traits don't always balance out but it's worth a shot and then you just breed daughter to father if you don't exactly what you want?

Also why are her ventral's considered "stumpy"?


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## Basement Bettas

Not a very good pis by any means and not inf full flare. Got good branching but can not determine spread or the length of the outside rays. They need to be long to have the desired sharp edges of the desired "D" shape. The length of the tail rays is a bit short compared to the other two fins. Needs a bit more length for better balance.

Dorsal is branched but the first rays re too short. Those first 4 need to be longer. The width shows he has some DT up the genetic pike. The spikes would be faulted as only fin with them. It is all about symmetry.

Anal is a bit long and has some slope. As a breeder you want to level that out and have it same length as the other fins. 

Color wise he is a multi. Would take a lot of work to clean up and go solid or marble. Even BF is not clean enough to be an easy fix. Top line on this male is bumpy. He is also a bit pinched in and narrow at the base of the tail.


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## Basement Bettas

You need to have a plan and a direction to breed. What do you want to accomplish with that male? You will not get clean BF's and there is a lot of marble in that male. Ideally you will breed for more multi type fish.

The blue female has better overall balance than the second. Her tail edges are rounded but she has good branching and I like the level anal. It is a bi-ch to get slope out.

Second female I like for the color and the the longer tail length. She would be my hands down choice except for that sloped anal. She has good tail branching and better edges. The dorsal also has some length so it ties in nice to the tail.

It is kinda a toss up.. so you have to know what you want in the end. It you want to show.. or not. Ideally you get both and work parallel lines. One for form [blue] and the other for color [marble]


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## Kiara1125

Thanks! I haven't had the time to grab good pictures of both of them, but I'll be able to get it done tomorrow.

Still not sure when I'll get around to breeding them if I do decide to do it. I might go any buy a quality HM pair from AB. I'm just trying to see what would be a good find and see what flaws would have to be balanced out.


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## weaver72

I don't bred,I rescue the homeless bettas, no matter what anyone says he is WOW Beautiful,good luck with him


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## Lamb

He's pretty!


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## Johnboy33

Kiara that fish is gorgeous!! I'm no pro, but I'm a little bit in love!


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## Kiara1125

Haha, thanks! He's changed so much. He's completely blue and green now, but he's got a bit of red on his dorsal and anal fin. It's so thick and it just sticks out. He's so gorgeous. I'm glad I got him.


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## Johnboy33

I want him!! Lol


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## Basement Bettas

Males dorsal is very stair stepped.. tail seems more delta than HM. The top outside rays are curved rather than straight. Tail too short in proportion to other fins and the anal is a bit long and sloped. Color wise he is a poor butterfly, he has t hat BF banding on all 3 fins and would be placed in that class. But poor color separation would make him not competitive.

None of the females will get you to quality fish. The female will stamp the fry.. and these are not worth reproducing. I have found 80-90% of my offspring look like their mothers. Do NOT breed poor quality females.


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## Kiara1125

Well, I'm definitely not going to breed them since some bacteria crap killed ALL my females in 3 days. It only killed the betas, every other fish was fine. Now Fall Out is just happily marbling into his little 1g bowl (he started tail biting and deteriorating when I gave him a 10g to himself).


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## redthebetta

I think he is beautiful!


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## cobylyn

oh my gosh this thread was so interesting to read!! You all are hardcore betta fanatics!!


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