# Fishless Ammonia Cycle Question



## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I am currently performing a fishless ammonia cycle on my 5 gallon. The sticky states that you should keep the ammonia level at 5. My test kit reads 4 and then jumps to 8. My reading is around 4. I was wondering if this was okay, or if I should add a tad bit more ammonia. I would appreciate any input on this.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

If it's already at 4, I wouldn't add any more.


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## betta80888 (Aug 16, 2013)

It's fine


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you very much.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

I would even do a partial water change to bring the ammonia level down. High ammonia levels reduce the amount of O2 in the water. Nitrifying bacteria need lots of O2 to establish themselves and perform their function. 2-3ppm at most would be more conducive to their development than 4-8 ppm.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you rpadgett37. I will do a partial water change and bring the ammonia level down some. I am hoping that I will start seeing nitrites sometime in the next week or so.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I finally was able to order the filter I am going to have in my 5 gallon (the Mignon 150). I replaced the media in the current filter (a Tetra Micro Internal Filter) with the media that I will be putting in the new filter when it arrives in a week. This way my BB colony won't hopefully be too interrupted when I swap out the filters. The ammonia is steadily sitting at a 3. I know that by changing out the Tetra Biobag for the new media, I probably started the cycle all over again, but I would rather start the cycle again now (after 4 days) that in another week when my new filter arrives. My pH is reading at 7.4. *Does anyone know how many days/weeks is average for nitrites to start showing?*


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Keep all media in the tank, preferably in the flow. I agree with Rpadgett on ammonia levels. 2.0 to 3.0ppm is more than plenty for a single Betta. 

With lots of aeration (filter on high), >82* temperatures and darkness. You might get nitrite in a week or two. 

If you're in a hurry because you have fish waiting for that tank to cycle, you might consider a fish-in cycle or the use of bottled bacteria.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you Hallyx. I haven't turned the light on in the tank at all and have blocked as much light as I can from the room. I don't have a fish waiting for the tank. I'm waiting for the tank to cycle before I go get one. I know it takes time, but I guess I'm like a little kid opening presents when it comes to waiting for the tank to cycle. Everyday when I take the tests, I am hoping for a good present and it ends up being "socks". I know it could take a month to cycle the tank. That doesn't mean I don't get hopeful when I perform my tests.


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

And you can use the old "towel over the tank" trick for darkness, which information I attribute to Hallyx!! The day WILL come when you see nitrites! That day made me, for one, very happy!

With my fish-in cycle, and some fits and starts and a bad heater (now replaced), low aeration, light and a steep learning curve, it took about three weeks for the nitrites (product of nitrosomonas bacteria) to show up on the test. It was my first real sign that nature was proceeding apace. I have a five gallon too. I would think it would be considerably less time for a fish-less cycle, especially the way you are doing it. What, BTW, is your ammonia source, brand etc.?

And remember our cycling mantra: Bacteria Happens!!


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I threw a towel over the tank about an hour ago. I am hoping my heater will do the trick, although I know it may take longer as it is not adjustable. It is one of the Tetra heaters for 2-15 gallons that keeps the water at 78. i don't have the funds yet to get an adjustable heater, but I really wanted to replace the Tetra internal filter that came in my 5 gallon kit from Walmart. The Mignon brand, for the most part, came highly recommended.

I am using the Ace Hardware brand of ammonia. It is janitorial strength and does not foam when you shake it. It is 10% ammonium hydroxide. I did a Google search to find out where to get pure ammonia and this brand came up numerous times on forums as being a good brand to use. Luckily I had an Ace hardware about 10 or so miles away in the next town. In my area, it was $3.99 for 1 gallon. (That was the only size my store stocked.) The calculator in the sticky helped me figure out how much to put in the tank.


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

Perfect (best) ammonia source, good for you! I know exactly the one you are talking about...probably the only place to find it, that i know of, at least.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I'm seriously thinking about speeding this up. Does anyone know how well Seachem's Stability will do if I keep dosing the tank to keep the ammonia between 2 and 3?


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

dragnz2159 said:


> I'm seriously thinking about speeding this up. Does anyone know how well Seachem's Stability will do if I keep dosing the tank to keep the ammonia between 2 and 3?


SC Stability is a good bacterial product. Many members of this forum have used it to successfully to seed their aquaria, speeding their cycle along.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you. I talked to Seachem today and they stated to keep the ammonia between 1 and 2 and make sure to use Prime so that the ammonia isn't toxic to the bacteria. I did a partial water change to bring my ammonia down to 1 and put in the first dose of Stability today.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

dragnz2159 said:


> Thank you. I talked to Seachem today and they stated to keep the ammonia between 1 and 2 and make sure to use Prime so that the ammonia isn't toxic to the bacteria. I did a partial water change to bring my ammonia down to 1 and put in the first dose of Stability today.


That's perfect. 1-2 ppm is a very good range.


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## jennandjuicetm (May 4, 2014)

Following for when i have to do a fishless cycle. Good luck!!


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you. I will keep everyone posted on the progress. I will add dose 2 of Stability and check my water parameters in a few hours. Here's to hopefully getting this tank cycled.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 2 parameters:
pH: 7
Ammonia: between 1 and 2
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: between 10 and 20 (hard to say, my color never matches any of them)
Put second dose of Stability into the tank and double dosed with Prime (4 drops per gallon). I have a Seachem Ammonia Alert in the tank to let me know if there is any free ammonia in the water. Today is was showing .05. I will wait and see if the two doses of Prime is enough to handle that amount or not.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

You may not see any change in ammonia reading with Prime. Prime only locks up and detoxifies the ammonia. It's still there to be read.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

The Seachem Tech Consultant just told me double dose the tank to detoxify the ammonia so it doesn't harm the bacteria. Would that reduce the amount of free ammonia in the tank if it locked it up?


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

Yes, it does reduce the amount of free ammonia in the tank. It binds the ammonia in something ethereal called the "Prime-ammonia Complex". It then begins to slowly degrade that bond over 24-48 hours. Therefore, there is still ammonia present for the bacteria to consume; however, it is released slowly. Also, Seachem's claim is that even when bound, the bacteria can still feed off the ammonia in this complex.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

That is good to know. My ammonia alert test has been reading safe all afternoon. 

Water parameters for Day 3:
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: between 10 and 20

I have not dosed the tank with Prime today, but I did get my new filter. I swapped out the filters and took the media from the old filter and put it in the new filter. I also added the third dose of Stability.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Following. I'll be starting a fishless cycle soon.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

@ freeflow246 - Hopefully this goes well. I will definitely keep posting the results.

Day 4 Parameters:
Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: between 10 and 20

I had to add some water today, so I double dosed the whole tank with Prime again. I added the fourth dose of Stability. The ammonia was at 1 before I added the new water and really close to 1 after I added the water, so I didn't add any more to the tank. I'm not sure why, but the part of the towel that was over the back of the tank was soaked today. I added about an inch of water to the tank and am keeping an eye on it for leaks. There is no water on the shelf around the tank and no visible drips, so I don't know how the towel got so wet. Hoping this tank has no problems. I don't want to have to start all over again. I am leaving the towel off, so I can monitor the tank for leaks.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Could a corner have barely touched the surface of the water? One time I was covering an open-top qt tank with a towel and a corner just touched the water. It sucked up half a gallon overnight.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

That is very possible that a small edge went into the opening on the tank lid or was touching the filter. Right now I have the towel off, so I can keep an eye on it (and to let the towel dry). I'm hoping that is all it was. So far, there are no visible drips or condensation on the outside. That was my first thought too, but then I started wondering if the tank was leaking. I couldn't really see where the where the back of the towel was because it was obscuring my view of the entire tank, and I pulled it off before I started inspecting the towel to see if it had touched the water somewhere. I will try to put the towel on again tomorrow and see what happens.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

So far, the tank is not leaking, so the towel must have somehow touched the water. I put the fifth dose of Stability into the tank and also dosed the tank with Prime. The Stability was put directly into the filter today. We will see how that works.

Day 5 parameters:
Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: between 10 and 20

I keep saying between 10 and 20 because I can't tell what is the closest to the test result. I have posted a couple of pics, so maybe some of you can help me decide what it is.

This is getting kind of frustrating. I was hoping to see at least a little change in something by now. :frustrated:


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## JessiesGill (Feb 17, 2014)

I am fairly new to this, too. To me, your nitrates look to be above 20ppm, and close to 40ppm. It seems dark and verging toward the red. I'd consider this time for a water change. I'll be watching to see what a more expert user has to say, since I'm still learning.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 6 parameters:

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: Between 10 and 20
pH: 7.2

Added dose 6 of Stability and dosed the tank with Prime.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 7:

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: between 10 and 20

I put the seventh dose of Stability into the tank.

Called Seachem's Tech Support today and explained what I was doing and the fact that I haven't seen any change in a week. The technician said that fishless cycles could take longer to show results. They recommended dosing the tank for three more days with Stability and to not use Prime. After the three day period, wait a couple of days for the bacteria to find a home. If I hadn't seen any type of change in 5 days, to call them back and they would send me a new bottle of Stability. I'm still feeling very frustrated. I was expecting some change by now. :frustrated: 

*Has anyone used Stability on this forum before with any results? Did you do a fish-in cycle or a fishless cycle?*


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Seven days is still a little early to be expecting readable results even with Stability. Although it helps, and many members here swear by it, it does not contain live bacteria, _*as far as I know*.

_Itry to keep track of live bacteria users on here_._Tetra Safestart and Dr Tim's are the most frequently used and reported as successful. Stability is the next most often used with success reported as inconsistent.

Follow Seachem's instructions for best results.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you Hallyx. I will follow their instructions. I have used TSS before and had some success, but I was also living in a different location with a different water source and had fish in the tank. I knew nothing about the cycle and how it worked. I thought my fish were producing all of the ammonia and was using an ammonia locking chemical (Ammonia Safe, I think). Now I know there could have been ammonia in the tap water and that TSS raises the ammonia. I don't know how my Glofish survived. I'm just trying to get things right before I get a betta, now that I am more educated on the cycle and know that my tap water has some ammonia in it.

I have read that Stability doesn't contain live bacteria. It contains bacteria that is dormant until "awaken" with water. Not sure how much truth there is in that, though. I also tried TSS during the fishless cycle I am currently doing, with no results. The ammonia may have been too high for the bacteria and it may have killed them. (I was keeping the ammonia at 4.)


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 8:

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20

Water has been looking really cloudy now for about 5 days. I'm hoping that the water clears up soon.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Ammonia>5.0ppm _may_ slow the cycle. But I've cycled with ammonia >8.0ppm. Depends on pH and hardness and other inconclusive factors. 

The cloudiness is most likely a bacterial bloom (not nitrifying bacteria) which frequently accompanies the start of the cycle. It should clear up by itself. 

Keep testing and practice patience. Good luck.


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## givemethatfish (Feb 10, 2014)

Stability doesn't contain live bacteria per se, but it does contain bacteria in endospore form. It's basically a state of suspended animation during which the bacteria can withstand extreme conditions - no food, no moisture, UV radiation, extreme temperatures, and even chemical destruction. There are actually accounts of bacteria being revived from spore form after thousands of years in dormancy.

It does contain both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, and the strains of bacteria used are able to function in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. I would have to assume that the bacteria in Stability are not the exact same strains as in other similar products. Seachem won't release the details of exactly which strains - I figure because they don't want their ideas stolen. 

But as the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat, just like there's more than one strain of bacteria that can complete the nitrogen cycle. My personal assumption is that the bacteria in Stability work to form the initial cycle just as any other bottled product would, but that the bacteria are probably eventually slowly replaced by the naturally-occuring bacteria in whatever your source water is. Either that or they co-exist with that bacteria, which is actually probably more likely. There is going to be competition for resources among all the different bacterial strains, but whichever one is more suitable for your tank conditions will win out. And it doesn't really matter which one that is because the end goal is the same. A stable nitrogen cycle.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 9

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20

Put in the 9th dose of Stability. Nothing new to report. The water is still cloudy. I have one more dose of Stability to put in tomorrow.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 10

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20

Put the tenth and last dose of Stability into the tank today. Now we just wait and see. The water is still cloudy. Hopefully it will start clearing up now that the Stability isn't going in the tank anymore.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 11

No Stability was added to the tank. I added some water today to replace the water lost due to evaporation and numerous tests. With the water, I also added Prime. 

*Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 30, but beginning to approach 40
pH: 6.8 * (I haven't been always logging pH, but I have been testing it every day. Three days ago, it was 7. Two days ago, it was 7.2. Yesterday it was between 7.4 and 7.6. It topped out the normal pH test, so I used the high range pH test. It was at the lowest reading on that test. Not sure what caused the dramatic pH shift either. I know according to the test strips that I have, I have very soft water.)

I tested the water after I had added the new water. Now I am wondering if the ammonia may have dropped and I had put it back with the water change, as the nitrates appear to be rising. There are still no nitrites, but I have read that with quick start products, you may not see the nitrite spike. I guess I will see what tomorrow's tests show.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 12

Ammonia: around 1 (little lighter that the 1, but not close to the color for .75)
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 30 or so (between 20 and 40)
pH: 6.8

Water is still cloudy. Nothing else to report.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 16
Still no change in any parameters. 

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 30
pH: 7.4

Not sure why nothing has changed. I figured by now, even without the use of Stability, that there would have been a change in the ammonia level by now. I don't know where to go from here.


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## Briz (Mar 22, 2013)

Make sure your water is getting oxygenated as well. I've found that sometimes cloudy water can be cleared up by adding/increasing aeration. Try adding an airstone or increasing the surface agitation with the filter outflow. The beneficial bacteria will appreciate the extra oxygen as well!


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

My filter is on full flow and the surface of the water has got a lot of movement. There is a steady flow of bubbles that go down into the water at least an inch from the outflow.


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

looks like you are just waiting on the nitrosoma bacteria...which eat ammonia and convert to nitrite....I waited a long time for mine...but it did happen!


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 18:

Ammonia: 1
pH: 7.2

I didn't test for anything else because until the ammonia drops, I'm probably just wasting the other tests. The water is still cloudy. :? I'm also seeing a white film on heater. I don't see it on anything else. When I wiped it off of the heater, it came off in sheets, which I removed using a net. I'm hoping that by removing the film, I didn't mess up anything (not that I'm seeing any changes to mess up). I know all tanks are different, but from what I have been reading, I should have started to see a drop in the ammonia by now, as it has been 18 days since I started using the Stability and been keeping the ammonia at a constant level. I haven't added any more Stability to the tank since Day 10 and haven't added Prime to the tank since Day 7 or so (with the exception of a small water change).


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

Dragonz, just a thought: what else do you have in this tank? substrate? decor? plants? anything else for bacteria to latch onto? I know they will populate tank sides...but what other surfaces do they have besides filter? Any other signs of algae besides the funny white stuff?


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I have gravel, a heater, a few silk plants, and some places to hide.

Below I have attached pictures of my tank and of the white film that is on the heater. There are no visible forms of algae anywhere in the tank. The white film appears to be just on the heater and the filter sponge that is over the intake.


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

Thanks, dragonz, looks like there is mega surface area for the BB to populate...very clean operation...I wish i could tell you about the white film!!!


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I just wish I knew if the white film was a type of algae or not. I also wish I knew why my water was still cloudy and why there hasn't been any change in the ammonia readings. It's been almost three weeks since I dropped the ammonia to 1ppm. I've been testing now every couple of days, but I went ahead and just tested the water again. (I know in the picture, the water doesn't really look cloudy. I tried to get pictures from both sides to show just how cloudy the water is. Sorry, my son decided to be in one of the pictures.)

Day 19: Ammonia: 1

That is the only test I ran today. Tomorrow I will call Seachem and see what they have to say. I understand every tank is different, but I thought after two and half weeks, I should have started to see some drop in the ammonia.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

*Had a setback*

I called Seachem yesterday to explain what I was doing and what was happening. I explained I was doing a FISHLESS CYCLE. The "very helpful" support person I was talking to suggested putting a GUPPY or another very hardy FISH into my tank. :frustrated: She also told me to keep dosing with Prime every 48 hours and resume dosing with Stability.

Well, I decided to take all of the water down to the gravel from my tank and put new water into the tank. That instantly cleared up all of the cloudy water. I wiped off the heater and swished some of the decorations around in the tank water to get the white film off. I, then, dosed with Prime, ammonia, and Stability. I must have totally spaced when dosing the ammonia and didn't think about it until today. I had put 1 ml more of ammonia than I was suppose to for my desired concentration. I immediately checked the ammonia level and found it at 8+, which either very effectively killed all of the bacteria or stalled my non-progressing cycle. I drained the tank down to the gravel again and added more water. I dosed it with Prime and checked the amount of ammonia still left in the tank. It was at .5 ppm. I checked the calculator to see what I needed to add to get it up to 1 and was very careful to only add a couple of drops this time. Ammonia is now at .75, but I'm going to leave it for right now and see what happens. I dosed with Stability again.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day: 23

Ammonia: between .5 and 1

Only test I ran again today because the ammonia hasn't budged. I dosed with Stability yesterday and today according to the directions. I also dosed with Prime today.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 24:

Ammonia: between .5 and 1
pH: 7.4
Nitrites: 0

So frustrated. I dosed with Prime at 1 drop per gallon and dosed with Stability. I contacted Sachem to see if they had any advice. The person I spoke to see this time really was helpful. He stated that maybe my water had something in it that had an antibacterial quality and wasnt allowing the bacteria to grow. This makes sense. Even he agreed that by now, even without Stability, I should have started seeing the ammonia drop. Now I just need to get some different water. *Should I use Spring Water or Drinking water? *. I was advised not to use Distilled mixed with tap water due to the fact that there may be something unknown that is killing the bacteria.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Sorry to hear you may have to use store-bought water. 

I'd go with the spring water. It should have the electrolytes and minerals your livestock needs. RO and DI (which is often sold as "drinking" water) doesn't have these essentials. If it says "oxonated" on the label, it's RO.

By the way, I'm not convinced of the accuracy of a lot of Seachem's information. I can't conceive of any anti-bacterial substances in commercial tap-water. I remain to be educated on this point.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

Agree with Hallyx. Can't imagine what could possibly be in the water that is inhibiting your bacterial growth. I think your tap water is just fine.

The cloudiness in your tank is typically a sign of Heterotropic bacteria. The bloom usually occurs in new, uncycled tanks. They soak up O2 like there's no tomorrow and feed on whatever organics are in the water, and once the organics are consumed, the bloom fades away, usually in a couple of days.

Now dead or unviable bacteria / spores will also fuel their continuing presence. What I think may have happened is the BB in stability never became viable due to lack of O2 / resources and died off. Each dose of stability only continued to feed the HB, extending the milkiness of your water. That would most certainly stop a cycle before it had a chance to begin.

The water change was a good move. I would suggest, though, that before dosing Stability again, watch for another bloom, let it dissipate, then try dosing again. I would also suggest checking your filter. If the case has brown growing in it anywhere, and if your bio media has any brown or black coloration, clean it thoroughly and replace the bio media. That would be a sign the HB took root in your filtration rather than the BB and will be another non-starter.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Unfortunately, my water is not commercial tap water. It is well water. I honestly don't know the make-up of my water as I haven't had it tested. We are just renting the house. 

The water has ample surface movement and a fairly large amount of movement further down in the tank. (The decorations near the filter move.) There is no brown or black anything in my filter or filter media. I just checked before typing this. I took all of the media out and looked it over, as well as, the casing. They look almost as if I had just put them in (whitish in color). Other than the white film that I cleaned off of some of the decorations, the heater, and the intake sponge, there has been no type of algae. I did think it was odd that the cloudy water stayed so long. The cloudy water hasn't come back (yet). 

I purchased five gallons of spring water last night. I will test the water before I put it in the tank, so I know what the starting parameters are. I will also test my tank before I change the water to see if there is any change there yet. Although, according to my Ammonia Alert, there is no change. The Seachem person also thought that it was odd that my Ammonia Alert never registered safe (unless I put it in a cup of distilled water.) I have used anywhere from one to three drops of Prime and the alert never changes color. I know it works though. I placed it in a cup of distilled water and it registered safe. I held it over the ammonia bottle and it registered toxic. When I accidentally overdosed the ammonia, it registered toxic. I'm hoping my bottle of Prime is working. Seachem said there might be something else happening with the water. I guess when I change the water out and add the ammonia, I will see if the Prime is able to fully detoxify it.


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## rpadgett37 (Jan 1, 2014)

You are doing everything right. Your journal is really well done. Wanted to make sure you knew that. 

And there's no need to panic or stress out. These are natural biological processes that are occurring in your tank. They are manageable so no need for concern.

Cycling can take time. Everyone's is a little different, some slower while others are quicker. Hang in there and it will all work itself out


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

rpadgett37 said:


> You are doing everything right. Your journal is really well done. Wanted to make sure you knew that.
> 
> And there's no need to panic or stress out. These are natural biological processes that are occurring in your tank. They are manageable so no need for concern.
> 
> Cycling can take time. Everyone's is a little different, some slower while others are quicker. Hang in there and it will all work itself out


+1, rpadgett! dragn, you have my support!! I suspect there are always a few curve balls thrown during cycling, I certainly had mine!!!


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 25 (or 1, however you choose to look at it):

Changed the water out in my tank with the store bought water that I purchased last night. The parameters of that water straight out of the bottle are as follows:

Ammonia: between 0 and .25, but closer to 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0 :welldone: (so nice to know that I'm not dealing with close to 30 nitrates already)
pH: 6.8
Hardness (using strips): 75
Alkalinity (using strips): between 0 and 40

Hardness, Alkalinity, and pH are similar to my water. I dosed the tank to 1 ppm ammonia (yes I measured carefully this time) and dosed the tank with two drops per gallon of Prime. I am waiting for the temperature to reach 78 before I put the Stability in. If bottled water is going to be the way I have to go, then I will need to find a way to heat it up as it was around 70 when I put it into the tank. Hopefully my tank will cycle now. If the tank starts showing any type of progress, then, I know that the problem was my water source. If not, then, I have no idea, so I am seriously hoping that the change in water works. As some of you may know, I have actually been running this fishless cycle for 37 days. I have changed the amount of ammonia that was in the tank a couple of times and, at the very beginning of the cycle, I switched out the filter, but I did have the desired media for the new filter in the old filter. I also switched the tank from a 2.5 gallon to a 5 gallon, but there again, it was at the very beginning. All of the same decorations, gravel, and water went into the new tank. The counting of days was when I started using the Stability. Crossing my fingers this time in the hopes that all works out.


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

Crossing fingers with you. I know I may have asked before, but might it not help in a fishless cycle to have the temp considerably higher like 86*F? (The Counting Of Days, lol sounds like a movie title). And sorry to sound obtuse, but why are you using Prime in a fishless cycle? (Honestly asking questions in attempt to be of assistance, especially if you are more or less starting all over).


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I agree that a raise in temperature might help some, but I have a non-adjustable heater at the moment. (A Tetra 2-15 50 watt heater that keeps the tank around 78.) I am hoping to get a new heater sometime in the next few weeks, once I have the money to do so. I am looking at the Cobalt line of heaters. I know that 78 might not be as high as the bacteria like, but I also know that it should still be very possible to cycle a tank at a temperature of 78 (I hope).

Thank you everyone for the support.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

About your new water: the pH hardness and alkalinity are on the low side of optimal. So if it may take a little longer. Don't worry. Those specs are fine for bacteria, and your fish will love it.

Now that you're using water with no chlorine or chloramine, you don't have to use Prime out of consideration for your bacteria. Although it certainly doesn't hurt.

Your temperature is not your limiting factor; 78* is fine. You already have plenty of aeration and circulation. Just keep the tank on the darkish side.

Stick with it. Even with all the frustrations, you and we have learned a lot, and are learning more.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you Hallyx. The water parameters were actually similar to the well water I was using with the exception of the ammonia being a little lower and the nitrates being a lot lower. I haven't turned the tank light on at all during this entire process. I am seriously hoping that by the time I reach the three or four week mark with this water that I have some results to at least show me that things are working in the right direction. Thank you for the support.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 2 (again):

*Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0 *:-D (Still so happy to see that lovely yellow color. I know after a little while I will want that to change from yellow, but at least it's not dark orange.)
*pH: 7.6 on pH test and 7.4 on high range pH test so I'm going to say 7.5
*

Dosed with the second dose of Stability.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 4 (Round 2):

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
pH: 7.5

Dosed with Stability yesterday and today. I have not used any more Prime since the initial dose on Day 1. The water is still crystal clear.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 9 (Round 2)

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
pH: 7.5

Dosed with Stability every day except yesterday. I haven't put Prime in the tank at all. I have been very busy and haven't had much time to test the water over the past couple of days. The ammonia alert is still reading .05 (alert), so I knew that there wouldn't be much of a change, if any. As you can see, there has been no change. Hoping that I don't go another month without seeing anything. When I googled ammonia not going down for a fishless cycle, I came across a thread on another forum describing the same problem I am having. That person got his tank to cycle by leaving the ammonia in the tank, but adding a shrimp. Any thoughts on if I should try this route?


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

Piece o' shrimp or a live shrimp?

I have read about good results with the piece o'shrimp method...people seem to be successful with it.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Piece of shrimp, not a live shrimp. I'm pretty sure the ammonia would be toxic to the live shrimp. Slowly beginning to wonder, though, if a fish-in cycle is the way to go now that I am using bottled water and not my well water with high nitrates.


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## freeflow246 (Jul 24, 2011)

Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble starting the cycle. I have a 5.5 gallon and I bought a seeded sponge to speed things up. With live plants and unheated water, my cycle probably took a little over a week. Strange about your water. I can't imagine well water having anything antibacterial in it.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

That was just a hunch. I don't think anyone can say why my cycle isn't starting. It's very frustrating.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

The hardest part of cycling is waiting for the bacteria to fall out of the sky into your tank.....literally. It's in the moisture in the air and in all the unchlorinated water all around you -- in the soil, on the leaves, in the rain.

I've used rotting shrimp successfully, as have countless others through the years. But it's an old, hopefully obsolete method of generating ammonia. It's hard to control the dose and it leaves a horrendous stench in the tank which takes months to dissipate ... if ever. Pure ammonia is better. 

Stability does not contain the live bacteria which perform the nitrogen cycle. That's why it's last on my list of recommendations. I hear it works fine for some, not so well for others. Tetra Safestart, on the other hand, is very consistant. So is Quickstart, NiteOut, Colony and Dr Tim's. These contain the actual live bacteria. As long as they are fresh and have never been frozen or overheated, they work very well, indeed.

All these products were designed to be used with fish in the tank, but work well when dosed with pure ammonia.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you Hallyx. I might look into getting another bottle of TSS or one of the other ones that I can find at the store. I will continue using just the ammonia, as I really don't want my tank to smell bad. I guess Stability doesn't work well with ammonia. It might have worked better with fish in the tank.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 10 (Round 2):

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
pH: 7.5

Instead of dosing with Stability, I put the first dose of NiteOut in. Stability didn't seem to be working with a fishless cycle, so I decided to look at the products that Hallyx suggested. I called the company that makes NiteOut and explained what I was doing and they stated that their product should work with a fishless cycle using ammonia. I had tried to call API (Mars) to find out about their product working with a fishless cycle and couldn't get anyone on the phone. That helped me in my decision to go with NiteOut.


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## mobius981 (Apr 27, 2014)

Nice move!!! So sorry about all the (grrrrrrrr) frustration. I felt it too, it seemed endless, and I when I think I am being so careful and doing everything right and so forth....I think Hallyx gave some great input! and i will be following closely! Who knew there were fish in and fish out bacteria products....more grrrrrr! Hope this flows more smoothly for you!!


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

As I mentioned above, all these products are designed for fish-in, including Stability. But the bacteria don't care if they're oxidizing ammonia from a bottle or from a fish.

It's nice you have a good selection in your area, dragnz. Let us know how that NOut works for you.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Sorry I haven't posted sooner. I was out of town for the Fourth of July holiday. I dosed the tank with NiteOut on Wednesday before I left and I have dosed it today. There have been no changed in the water parameters.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

What ammonia dosage are you using this time around?


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I am using 1ppm ammonia. When I dose the tank today with the NiteOut, I will post all of the water parameters again.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Day 20 I guess:

Ammonia: 1
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
pH: still 7.4 to 7.6 (7.4 on high range and 7.6 on regular test)

I was suppose to put in more NiteOut yesterday, but I didn't do anything. The water has gotten cloudy again and I wasn't sure if I was suppose to put any more of the product in. As you can see, there have been no changes in the water parameters in three weeks. Sigh.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Still no change in the water parameters. The water is still a little cloudy, so I am still holding off on adding the NiteOut.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Check the directions. But I'm sure that product only requires _one_ dose. It's live bacteria. It should multiply from there.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

The directions say to "check the ammonia level in the tank. New tanks - ass 1tsp. (5ml) per 10 gal. (38L), every other day until ammonia level is below 0.6 mg/L."

I've been following the directions and putting in .5 tsp (I have a 5 gallon tank). I put one in on Monday June 30. I put another dose in on Wednesday July 2. I was gone the 3rd through the 6th. I put a dose in on the 7th. Now I'm waiting for the water to clear up to put another dose in.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

That's unusual. Let me get back to you after I've looked it up. We're talking about MicrobeLift NiteOut, right?


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Yes. I have also been storing it in the bottom shelf of the refrigerator like the directions suggest. It's on the bottom shelf in the door to keep it as far away from the freezer as possible.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I AM SO FRUSTRATED. :frustrated: I turned off everything and took a cup of water from the tank. I swished around the intake sponge and the filter media in the tank. I filled the filter back up with water and, then, turned it back on. Everything was fine. Within a minute, the filter stopped working. I have checked the impeller and tried switching the outlet that I have the filter plugged into, even plugged it into the outlet that I have the light plugged into after I verified that the light still worked. The filter is not coming back on. Now I have to wait until I have the money to get a replacement HOB filter. I can use the internal filter that I still have for right now with the current media in it, but this just SUCKS. My water parameters haven't changed in I don't even know how long anymore and now my filter. AAAAHHHHH! :redmad:


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

That indeed sucks. Nobody ever mentions that this can be a frustrating hobby at times. You will, however, learn patience -- a lesson which can benefit any of us.

(What kind of filter is the one that broke?)


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

It was a Mignon 150 (1 step up from the Palm Filter, but same company). Looking back at my posts on the forum, I received it on May 30, 2014, so it only worked for about 6 weeks. Now I have to either get another one of those (not sure I want to do that), find another HOB filter that will work with a five gallon, or just stick with the internal filter I have. The internal filter just makes me kind of nervous, when I do get a fish. There is a pretty big opening at the bottom for the intake and the top of the filter is open where the water pours out. I don't want a fish to get sucked into the filter at the bottom or jump into it from the top.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I've never seen an internal with large inlets or outlets. What kind is that? I'm using Hagen Elite internals in my 5g's, kind of strong, but no openings.

Lots of folks using and recommending the Azoo Palm. Sorry you're having trouble with the Mignon.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

So I checked on NiteOutII. That's the right bacteria. I'm surprise Microbelift directs you to use the product frequently. Most similar products are just dosed once; the bacteria grow and spread from there. 

With your filter problems, make sure you're tank is getting enough aeration and high enough temperatures to encourage the bacteria.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

This is the tank that I have. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Aqua-Culture-Aquarium-Starter-Kit-5-gal-Fish-Aquatic-Pets/20693704

The filter looks like the Tetra Whisper filters where the water goes in the bottom and pours out of the top. They don't actually specify the filter name, but I think it might be this one, or one very similar to it. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tetra-Whisper-2-10i-Power-Filter-Fish-Aquatic-Pets/10291764

I have the temperature still holding steady at 78 F. The surface of the water still has a pretty decent amount of movement. I put all of my media from the Mignon filter into the internal filter. I know people recommend the Azoo Palm filter and I have read that it can work on a 5 gallon. The reason I went for the one step up was because when you convert the liters to gallons, the Palm is only rated to up to 4 gallons. 

The water is still kind of cloudy and I had that white film like stuff on my heater, thermometer, and decor. I got as much of it out as I could by wiping it off with a paper towel and using my fish net to strain it out of the water. The water is looking better than it did yesterday with my filter conking out, but still not crystal clear. I am holding off on adding the NiteOut for a another day or two to see if it clears up. 

I spoke to the people that work in the aquarium section of my local Petco yesterday and they told me to break the tank down and start again. That seems kind of logical, but they told me not to put in any ammonia, just the NiteOut. That is where I got confused, because without any ammonia, the NiteOut would starve. They just wanted mo to let the tank run for 48 hours and then bring in a sample of my water and go from there. I know the alkalinity in the water has some bearing on the cycling, but mine is really low (both the well water I was using and the bottled water I'm using now). Is there a point where the alkalinity gets too low and kills the cycle or keeps it from starting? 

I'm trying to be really patient, but this tank has been set up since May with no changes in the ammonia. It's just getting hard to figure out what is going wrong. I don't want to get another betta just to have him die again because something is keeping the tank from cycling.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

My water is still super cloudy. I'm really debating on draining the tank and leaving it empty until I can get my new HOB filter, then, starting again. Sigh.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

The advice to let your tank run for a day or two is for rank beginners, in order to make sure the equipment is operating properly and that there are no leaks. You're way beyond this stage.

If your pH is steady at 7.5pH and doesn't drift up or down, I would think you have enough alkalinity to provide a stable buffer for your pH.

I'm not sold on Tetra filters. The one you describe is basically a HOB that sits in the tank --- kind of an oxymoron -- a HIT (Hang In Tank). Sometimes the filter media does not totally fill the media compartment so the water can flow around the filter instead of being forced through it like it should. 

Filters are sized for more typical tropical tanks which are more heavily-stocked, sometimes overstocked. Betta don't need that much filtration.

The bacteria in NiteOut does indeed need ammonia to thrive -- either from a bottle or from livestock.

Cloudiness is often caused by a bacteria bloom. It's not cycling bacteria, but it often occurs in tank just before the cycle starts. It should go away by itself.

I appreciate that you don't want to endanger your new fish. But most of the bottled bacteria products are designed for fish-n cycling, that is they control or detoxify ammonia and they add live nitrifying bacteria which perform the cycle. You know how to use a test kit and you have Prime. Many new keepers successfully perform a fish-in cycle. Just change half of the water whenever ammonia rises >0.50ppm (same with nitrite). Dose Prime @2-drops/gal of tank size with water changes. And dose 1-drop/gal daily until cycled.

By the way, the method I just described works with or without bottled bacteria; without just usually takes longer. I'm sorry you're having difficulties establishing your cycle. It's not common, but it's not unusual either, if you know what I mean.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

Thank you Hallyx. I have been thinking about doing a fish-in cycle now that I am using bottled water that doesn't have any ammonia or nitrates in it to start off with. I would be using the NiteOut at the same time. The last time that I had cloudy water like I do now, it had not dissipated after three weeks and that was when I decided to change out the water. I'm hoping to get my new HOB filter sometime in the next few weeks. I like the HOB filters because they don't take up a lot of room in a small tank. The internal filter that I have right now is definitely not designed for the filter media that is currently in the filter from the old HOB filter. The water flow from the filter is drastically reduced. There is still water movement at the surface and some movement of the silk plants underneath the outflow, but I'm not sure that the water movement is enough. I agree that the water can flow around the the media, but I am trying to keep that from happening. I'm glad that you think that my alkalinity should be high enough to help a cycle. I'm getting ready to start a new job, so I won't be able to be home all day with the tank. The water parameters have still not changed. I will keep you posted as to what I decide.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

I haven't done anything to my tank since my last post, with the exception of topping the tank off twice. My readings are:

pH: 7.4
Ammonia: between .5 and 1, but closer to 1
Nitrites: 0
Did not test for nitrates because the ammonia hasn't decreased enough to show that the bacteria has started colonizing. I figured the small drop was due to me topping off the tank.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Even using Prime, I still like to keep my ammonia below 0.50ppm. That's just me being conservative (and squeamish). With Prime, 1.0ppm ammonia is not dangerous.


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## dragnz2159 (May 1, 2014)

There are still no fish in the tank. I have literally done nothing to the tank since my last post back in July. I'm not getting a fish until I can get a new filter up an running, which will hopefully be in a couple of weeks. I'm just not sure why my tank still has had no change. I figured by now the bacteria would have started colonizing and my tank would have started cycling. The ammonia in the tank is still from a bottle and it was the initial application from when I changed the water to bottled water. I have added nothing to the tank since around the middle of July.


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## bluenail (Jul 23, 2014)

Hallyx said:


> So I checked on NiteOutII. That's the right bacteria. I'm surprise Microbelift directs you to use the product frequently. Most similar products are just dosed once; the bacteria grow and spread from there.
> 
> With your filter problems, make sure you're tank is getting enough aeration and high enough temperatures to encourage the bacteria.


Adding it in several stages is mostly because there will be no nitrites when you add the first dose(s), so nitrite eating bacteria might starve. Adding every day means as soon as the nitrites are being produced, something is there to eat them. (Or so someone on another forum told me).

Which would mean, dragnz2159, that you can probably do okay with a double dose, then waiting until you see an ammonia drop before re-dosing. 

I would also try raising the ammonia to 2-3ppm slowly over the course of a day or two. I am having good luck with dosing to 4ppm and using Fluval's "Biological Enhancer" as a seed. Also consider adding in a sponge filter if doing so doesn't mess up your tank's look too much. A sponge filter on an air pump would provide more aeration and is one of the best environments for BB to grow. 

But if someone who has done this more tells you otherwise, listen to them. I'm NOT experienced in fishless cycling, I'm just saying what seems like it would work from what I understand of the biology, and having read multiple multiple reports on fishless cycling. (I'm kinda obsessive...)


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## bluenail (Jul 23, 2014)

SUDDEN THOUGHT, test some water right out of the bottle, where there should be zero ammonia. Then mix some way to strong and test it. Make sure there isn't something wrong with your test!


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

bluenail said:


> Adding it in several stages is mostly because there will be no nitrites when you add the first dose(s), so nitrite eating bacteria might starve. Adding every day means as soon as the nitrites are being produced, something is there to eat them. (Or so someone on another forum told me).


Multiple-dosing may work well fo NO II. But I'm not prepared to accept that explanation. Ammonia eating bacteria reproduces quickly enough --even at small quantities -- to produce nitrite for the nitrite eaters. The colonies grow in tandem and proportionately in a properly running cycle.


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