# Rapid Gill movement and Lethargy



## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Alright so gather round and let me hear your input. My female betta has been having some issues lately and while I think I have a hunch whats going on I'd like other more experienced individuals input.

My baby has scales growing over her eyes and this has been making things a bit more complicated as she refuses to surface feed and will only eat food once it's reached the bottom, so I'm nervous about her weight as that's dropped considerably.(Ive read about the feeding rings that some people use so I'm considering giving this a go if its been done with success by anyone)

In the past two weeks she has started staying on the bottom and in the last few days shes begun have rapid gill movements along with mouth opening and closing. She remains either wedged between the filter or a plant or she is laying on the bottom with her head down and body in an s like shape. Its hard to describe I'll attempt to get her picture while I wait for a ride to the store.

Housing
Size: 3.5 gallon
Temperature: 72-80 degrees
Filter: yes sponge
air stone or other type of aeration?: No
Heated: Yes
Betta mates in aquarium: None

Food
Betta food: Aqeuon Betta food with no color
How often do you feed your betta fish?: Twice a day 

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?: Evey weeks
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?: 100%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?:aquasafe

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?
To be filled out tonight: I need to run to pet store and have the water checked as I just ran out of test strips!
Ammonia: 
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH: 
Hardness:
Alkalinity:

Symptoms and Treatment

-Betta fish's appearance changed?: Am noticing some raised areas on her sides, not in a dropsy manner but in a 'need to get better at finding my food'manner. She has scales growing over her eyes and they're making it difficult for her to find food so I'm worried this could be her getting skinny! 

-Betta fish's behavior changed?: Lethargy that has been getting worse over the past two weeks, no longer swimming about energetically. She remains on the bottom or wedged between things. She does have rapid gill and mouth movements in a gasping motion.

-When did you start noticing the symptoms?: The lethargy about two weeks ago the gasping started several days ago and its getting worse

-Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?: No

-Does your fish have any history of being ill?: Not unless you count the fin rot I've been fighting with since I got her.

-How old is your fish (approximately)?: if she was a year when I got her she would be considered 2 years old now. 

Thank you for your time.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

First thing I'd do is to change her water, and start changing it more frequently, add a 50% change during the week. Since you have a filter running, I'd get the water checked at the LFS (get values) to check to see if your tank cycled or if those 100% changes prevented it from cycling. For now you want to stop doing the 100% changes to let the tank cycle, but you have to use a gravel vac to clean the tank.

I'd also get some Seachem Prime and start using that as your water conditioner. Also upgrade her food to New Life Spectrum or Omega One.

Can you post a picture so we can see if anything else might be going on with her. Also, have you seen the color of her poop?


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Change food and water primer got it.
I thought you couldn't cycle a smaller tank? I'll have to look up the directions for the cycling procedure I'm sure its here! Thank you for your help I really appreciate it I know a lot of these threads don't get a lot of answers.
Attached are pictures of my lil girl and now that I'm seeing a clear image of her not moving from above does that look like a case of popeye to you?! I thought it was just because the scales had grown over. And final answer: No poop spotted recently which is another concern of mine.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

She's a little bigger than I expected, I'm not very familiar with symptoms on the females. I'm not entirely sure why she looks so big on her body.

Looks like it might be early stage of popeye, nothing that's uncurable. Let's keep her water warm and clean (you need to keep the temperature stable, preferably between 78 - 80 degrees) and see how she responds to that for a couple of days. I don't want to start her on epsom salt or antibiotics until we have a better idea on what's going on with her.

You can cycle her tank, take a read below and feel free to post any questions you may have. It might be beneficial to start a thread in the habitats and accessories section for assistance.

We do try to get to as many of these posts as we can, unfortunately, sometimes you have to wait for someone with experience in your particular problem to have time and come across the thread.

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=111960
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=107771


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Shes my first girl so I have no clue either! Maybe another user with girl bettas will know more about the problem and post?
Ughhh popeye, I feel silly my poor girl getting popeye! I wish I would have been home more the past few weeks now then I would have noticed all this sooner.

I didn't want to start epsom salt so soon so I agree fully with you on that, though do you think I should give her a few days fast to clear out any threat of constipation or should I be checking for cysts with a flashlight? 

There are a lot and I wish I could help out in them but unfortunately just not experienced enough unless it comes to simple things like pop eye and constipation! XD But you're all really a blessing and this site is too without it I would've probably killed all the betta babies.

I do hope we can get this problem solved for her, shes young and such a great fish I'd hate for her to suffer, I miss her cute little antics. I've been making her a great resting place in ceramics!! (our ceramic body and glazes can be used in aquariums and I'm making her a tree with a betta shaped rest for her little self to rest on.)


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

They can take care of a lot of issues themselves as long as they have clean warm water and their immune systems are not compromised. I don't like the look of the bumps on her but I don't know if it's a female thing, maybe someone with females can answer that. Either way, clean, warm water will help her out. 

You can shine a light behind her to see if those lumps are transparent or not, looking to see if they might be filled with fluid or mostly solid. Let's give her a day in some clean, warm water, check for poop then we can consider the fast / epsom salt.

I'd like to see the tree when you've made it too.


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## Zhylis (Nov 4, 2014)

Hi Chibi and Veloran,

You're right about those bumps. Her body shape is very unusual and unfortunately not in a good way. Just as an example, the attached photo is from Muira's female, whom we're looking at in another thread. You can see she's very streamlined and tapers smoothly from her midline to her tail. 

Rather than looking thin from starvation, your girl is actually very thick especially near her tail. Without any additional tests, it's hard to say what's wrong. But my best guess would be that she's in the late stages of an internal parasite or bacterial infection. One of the ways fish try to protect themselves is by isolating the infection in a tissue masses called granulomas. The accumulation of those can build up inside, leading to the bumpy body shape. 

It can be controversial, but I would consider euthanasia at this point. Any treatment for parasites would probably be too stressful for her to survive.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Zhylis said:


> Hi Chibi and Veloran,
> 
> You're right about those bumps. Her body shape is very unusual and unfortunately not in a good way. Just as an example, the attached photo is from Muira's female, whom we're looking at in another thread. You can see she's very streamlined and tapers smoothly from her midline to her tail.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was afraid of that, I've been known to get the diagnosis of females wrong so I wanted to be sure.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Zhylis said:


> Hi Chibi and Veloran,
> 
> You're right about those bumps. Her body shape is very unusual and unfortunately not in a good way. Just as an example, the attached photo is from Muira's female, whom we're looking at in another thread. You can see she's very streamlined and tapers smoothly from her midline to her tail.
> 
> ...


Oh god are we like 100% sure?! I haven't noticed any signs up parasites from her her poops been normal. I feel like such an idiot I thought her 'weight loss' looking shape was because my mom wasn't feeding her a billion flakes and she was losing un-needed weight.
Could you link me the thread you're currently working on with Muiras female? I don't want my girl to suffer but I dont want to lose her either, have to do whats right for her though so I want to be informed on this as much as possible.
Thank you so much for helping its greatly appreciated even if its bad news like this could be.

On the plus side she seems much more chipper today when I fed her this morning and I am positive she found her food.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Also checked the masses last night theyre solid.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

Poor little girl!

If you don't plan to euthanize her, you could use API General Cure (which kills a lot of internal parasites) and keep that water very clean. I would also switch her to a better quality food like Omega One Betta Buffet pellets or New Life Spectrum Betta Pellets. 

I second the advice to try to keep the water stable; a change of 8 degrees is a big change for these fish, and a stable temp slightly lower than optimal is better than one that changes significantly.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

NorthernLights said:


> Poor little girl!
> 
> If you don't plan to euthanize her, you could use API General Cure (which kills a lot of internal parasites) and keep that water very clean. I would also switch her to a better quality food like Omega One Betta Buffet pellets or New Life Spectrum Betta Pellets.
> 
> I second the advice to try to keep the water stable; a change of 8 degrees is a big change for these fish, and a stable temp slightly lower than optimal is better than one that changes significantly.


I plan on updating her food and possibly getting her into a smaller tank so the changes are easier on her.
The temperature will be difficult as I'll have to buy another heater: I bought one on sale and didn't notice it only raises the degrees by 5 so in our apartment the college turns off the heat during the day and turns it on at night, basically meaning the temp has been fluctuating and I've been playing the 'run home and unplug the heater so she doesn't fry' or 'run home and plug in heater so she doesn't freeze'

If API can be used for this I will definitely be buying it tonight, road conditions be damned, too bad I left all my AQ salt at home otherwise I'd have everything I needed!


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Update:Have her new food and new water conditioner!!!
Also bought API general cure as well as an additional packet of AQ salt! As a general question should I start with an AQ treatment or go straight for API?
And with APIs general treatment should I remove my sponge filter since it's a filter media and just replace it after the first day?

Also what sort of parasite is this? I want to make sur I don't contaminate her.


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## NorthernLights (Mar 2, 2012)

It is hard to identify the exact parasite without more information.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

NorthernLights said:


> It is hard to identify the exact parasite without more information.


Sadly I havent seen her poop and she doesn't have any outward signs like latchers on or anything. I haven't seen anything in the water swimmin around and I haven't fed her any live food so I have no idea either.:-?

Shes hanging on pretty well thus far, not saying shes doing great but its her second dose of the general cure and shes still hanging in there so heres hoping.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hi, sorry, I've been out for a bit.
Anyway, since we're not sure exactly the cause, you may also have to add an antibiotic to her treatment regime to deal with the possible bacterial infection. Kanaplex (kanamcyin) is generally recommended.I hesitate to recommend Tetracycline, but it's an option since Kanaplex isn't easy to come by. As mentioned previously, it may not cure her and the antibiotic can be rough on her, but if you want to go down swinging, it's worth a shot.

I may be in and out for a couple more days.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Veloran said:


> Hi, sorry, I've been out for a bit.
> Anyway, since we're not sure exactly the cause, you may also have to add an antibiotic to her treatment regime to deal with the possible bacterial infection. Kanaplex (kanamcyin) is generally recommended.I hesitate to recommend Tetracycline, but it's an option since Kanaplex isn't easy to come by. As mentioned previously, it may not cure her and the antibiotic can be rough on her, but if you want to go down swinging, it's worth a shot.
> 
> I may be in and out for a couple more days.


You're fine dont worry about it! I've been treating her with API Gen. Cure and so far she's been doing alright, Im not going to jinx myself but yesterday she was looking a little swimmier which has me hopeful.

Do you know what LFS brands contain Kanaplex? And do youthink it'd be worth giving her an aq/epsom treatment too?I'm debating adding some AQ salt/epsom to the water to give her some boosted help but I'm still on the fence.:-?


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

We could do a 1 tsp / gal epsom salt, no aq salt. It may not do anything since as you said the lumps look solid.

Kanaplex is the name of the med, it's from Seachem, it contains kanamycin. You'll have to call around, I know of only one LFS in my area that stocks it, otherwise you'd have to order it.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Quick Update: Shes on her second week of treatment with the API Gen Cure

Tonight I've done a first addition of a teaspoon of epsom salts, shes also been moved into a two gallon so it's easier for her to swim.

Sadly the masses have gotten much more pronounced on both sides . This poor kid can't catch a break.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Also no poop yet. I have never been so frustrated at not having caught an animal taking a poo before. Where is her poo!? Ughguaghryagkrab


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Hey Veloran! Just wanted some feedback!
I checked her today and the masses are now clear so light can be seen from the other side.
What the frickle frack is going on here and how do I treat it?!
I stopped the antiparasite treatment as soon as I saw that, as I'm pretty certain parasite build up isn't clear??

The masses are getting bigger and her scales look like theyre about to pop! :-( 

I am on my second day of epsom salt at 1tspn and I'm upping her dosage tonight.
Do you think an epsom salt bath would be beneficial? 
Ive been fasting her for three days now and shes in a nice little two gallon getting proper water changes. I've kept it dark and added plastic floating plants so she can wiggle in and nap near the surface.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

NorthernLights said:


> It is hard to identify the exact parasite without more information.


Any ideas with the fun new twist on events? I have no idea anymore XD


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Ive read around the forums under a bunch of things and decided to begin another course of the general cure with an addition of properly dosed Epsom salt to the tank. I'm ordering Kanaplex tonight.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Clear masses like that are generally fluid buildup that can occur from a bacterial infection (although from the picture it's quite a number of masses to be explained by simple bacterial infection). Epsom salts will help draw out the fluid and can be used long term in the tank, you can up that to 2 tsp / gal, baths generally don't do anything.

Kanaplex would be the way to go if you want to try to save her, not going to sugar coat it, it will be rough on her but it should help out. If she's eating, it shouldn't be necessary to fast her.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Veloran said:


> Clear masses like that are generally fluid buildup that can occur from a bacterial infection (although from the picture it's quite a number of masses to be explained by simple bacterial infection). Epsom salts will help draw out the fluid and can be used long term in the tank, you can up that to 2 tsp / gal, baths generally don't do anything.
> 
> Kanaplex would be the way to go if you want to try to save her, not going to sugar coat it, it will be rough on her but it should help out. If she's eating, it shouldn't be necessary to fast her.



I ordered the kanaplex online and now I'm waiting for it to come in. It should be here any day now.

She doesn't have an appetite hence why I fasted her yesterday, though I did get her to eat one pellet a few days ago but I think thats because I put it on her nose and she just went for air! I've been trying to feed her with chopsticks because I've heard that works too, I may try a garlic soak some pellets tonight if I cant get any into her for my twice daily attempt

Goodnews is that she did poop! But it was green, bright green, but most certainly poop or something of the sort. I'm hoping its some of the fluid coming out thanks to the epsom salts.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Green poop is a new one for me (not knowing what she ate before). The epsom salt will draw fluid out her skin, not really make her pass fluids.

I thought she was eating, but lethargy and not eating isn't a good sign. We can try the Kanaplex as long as she doesn't look like she's suffering. Again, I won't guarantee anything but we can try, from the picture, that number of masses doesn't look good.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah I dont have my hopes set too high. I just hope the kanaplex gets here soon shes mainly spending her time at the top of the tank nestled in the leaves of her plastic plants. I have them set so she can sleep on them by the surface so its easier for her to breathe. Right now I'm concerned because shes just sitting with her mouth open above the surface to sleep and she isn't using her gills too much.

I have two blankets over the tank to help keep the air nice and moist and its been working to keep it humid in there for her labyrinth organ.


Good news! With my assistance she ate 6 pellets in an hour!!!(thats a lot of food but goodness she was so hungry!) I cannot explain how excited I am for her to be eating finally, just needs persistent hand feeding. Super persistent Pretty sure it took her a full minute to figure out where the food was. But shes perked up a bit since.

And the bad news is that she hasn't gotten any less plump in terms of masses, Im going to check them again tonight with a flashlight and make sure they havent spread.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Update is she just did a more regular looking bathroom break. Its now a dark yellow edging towards brown. Which is nice that it isnt lime green.Kanaplex still not here yet, doing a water change and adding her epsom salt dosage. Not too optimistic but holding out hope she'll pull through.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Do what you can, make her comfortable. Hope for the best, expect the worst.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

The kanaplex came!!!


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## Little Zoom and Lady Iris (Nov 22, 2014)

You are doing a great job, keep it up and do not give up, keep us updated.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Little Zoom and Lady Iris said:


> You are doing a great job, keep it up and do not give up, keep us updated.


Thank you for the support! Cedric definitely needs it~<3. I was so thrilled the kanaplex came that I ran a crossed campus, picked it up from the post office and ran back to my apartment to give her her first dose. 

That was two hours ago. I just got back from checking on her and she ate 3 pellets willingly!

*Must. Remain. Cautiously. Positive.*​
I will never give up on my fish-daughter! Shes too young and precious and my baby. And I love her.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Great, follow the dosing, keep us updated on her progress. Lets see how she responds.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Veloran said:


> Great, follow the dosing, keep us updated on her progress. Lets see how she responds.


Thank you I will definitely keep you updated~


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

Veloran said:


> Great, follow the dosing, keep us updated on her progress. Lets see how she responds.


So far the liquid filled areas are growing larger, would a drain be possible/ recommended in your opinion?


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

As you can see the size has grown considerably and shes having difficulty swimming spending most of her times in the floating plants I have at the top of her tank.
Still using kanaplex and epsom salt. Her appetite has decreased significantly and she will no longer take to hand feeding.

Would draining the cysts at this point be recommended or should I wait longer and hope the epsom salt begins to work? Really i'm just focusing on keeping her comfortable.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm sorry too tell you, but at this point, from the look of her, especially if she's not eating and the antibiotics don't seem to be helping, she is probably too far gone. We knew it was a longshot starting her on treatment but you tried and I'm sure she does appreciate how much you tried.

At this point, I doubt trying to lance those cysts will help and would probably cause more discomfort that it would cure. The most you could do outside of euthanasia would be to make her comfortable until she passes.

Just know that you gave it your best.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

I figured it'd come to that so don't feel too bad about breaking the news 
I'm planning on doing just that keeping her as comfortable as possible. I may try draining but only as a last resort. Shes started eating again and has some more spunk so I'm just taking it one day at a time with her.

Your help is and has been greatly appreciated especially when a baby is sick it's hard to be sure you're doing something properly. Its a hard decision to make but I know with you guys around I can make the right informed choices.


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## ChibiShishou (Dec 9, 2011)

On a more saddening note without hope involved my four year old male betta has been at home under my parents care and it looks like his age has caught up to him. Hes so thin lethargic and just plum refuses food. I spent about thirty minutes trying to hand feed him and he showed 0 interest.

Unlike Cedric who I also handfeed, she fights valiently for every food piece she can get her mouth around.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Unfortunately, when it's their time, there's not much you can do about it. I always like to tell people that they didn't die in that cup.


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