# Cycling your uncycled tank without trying



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Taken from another thread



jaysee said:


> People who keep uncycled tanks are essentially doing a perpetual fish-in cycle (ironic, considering how out of favor that method is). While they may not be completing their cycle, it's nonetheless got an enormous impact on their aquarium.





LittleBlueFishlets said:


> OK, let's go with this. I'd be interested in seeing more information about this.
> 
> A common recommendation in this forum is that 1-4 gal unfiltered tanks should receive one 100% and one 50% water change per week. Many members have tanks in this size range (myself included). So I'd like to know if this is an appropriate recommendation. I'd also like to learn more about how following this water change schedule (rather than cycling the tank) impacts the aquarium and the fish in it. I'd also like to learn how the water in a water-change-only-schedule compares to that of a cycled 1-4 gal tank.
> 
> Which leads me to my next question: Many people say it's difficult to cycle a small (1-4 gal tank). Is this true? What can be done to allow people with 1-4 gal tanks to cycle their tank? (Please keep in mind that simple solutions are best. Based on my observations, many members of BF.com are young or don't have a lot of experience with fishkeeping and/or access to expensive equipment.)


For those that keep their fish in uncycled tanks, you can cycle your tank in one easy step......add a filter. You can continue to do everything exactly the same way as you always have - just don't touch your filter for 6-8 weeks to allow the beneficial bacteria to establish itself. You can still be as meticulous as you like about cleaning everything....except the filter.

This is why - the water change schedule that you follow to keep the fish alive in an uncycled tank is exactly what's needed to keep the fish alive during a fishless cycle. The only difference between the two is that a fishless cycle comes to an end resulting in constant 0 ammonia. The ONLY thing preventing an uncycled tank requiring constant water changes to prevent the fish from getting sick and dying from becoming a cycled tank with stable water quality that is capable of going without water changes for extended periods of time is a filter. Not that one should strive to not change their fish's water, but it sure is nice to not be a slave to it. There is certainly a great peace of mind knowing that my fish won't die if I don't get a chance to change the water for a period of time. It's nice to know that I can go away for 2 weeks and know my fish are in no danger. And really, the constant 0 ammonia is better for the fish's health than indefinite spikes, however small they may be.

The difference between a water change schedule for a cycled vs uncycled tank can be nothing at all, or it can be immense. You are certainly welcome to continue the 2-3 changes a week if you like. Or you can go 2-3 weeks if you want. 1-2 weeks is pretty standard advice, and by standard I mean cookie cutter. For example, a betta in a planted 10 gallon tank most certainly does not require weekly water changes. The impact of the uncycled tank water change recommendation on the tank is profound - it keeps the fish alive. It keeps ammonia from creeping up to lethal levels. That's exactly what must be done during a fish-in cycle.

It wasn't too long ago that the prevailing view here was that tanks under 5 gallons couldn't be cycled. I was shocked. Thankfully that is no longer the case - saying it's harder to cycle a small tank rather than impossible is a nice compromise I suppose. It's not any harder to cycle a tank than it is to maintain an uncycled tank. The cycle is also not any more difficult to maintain than a larger tank - it's all proportional.

Filters needn't be expensive. The Azoo palm mini HOB is a terrific filter for a small tank that costs $7 from foster and smith. Of course if that were the only thing you were buying youd have to pay shipping too, but if you can wait until there are more things you need, there is no better deal out there. I run one on my 2.5 gallon on full flow (its adjustable). Too, you can break off fins from the impeller to slow the flow even more, down to a trickle - good for a 1 gallon or less. Actually fitting the filter to the tank might prove to be a challenge though, but certainly possible in many cases. Otherwise, there are sponge filters. Lots of people love them, and I'll let them explain why since I do not like them. Too, there are some internal nano filters to which I've seen people give good reviews. I have no experience with them so that's all I will say. However, one of the great things about the HOB is that it gets the filter out of the tank, and in small tanks where there is limited space, I don't want the filter taking up space inside the tank.


----------



## lovee1795 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you for posting this! I'm using a sponge filter in my 2.5 gallon and have been hoping my tank would just cycle itself like I've heard they do with fish in the tank. It's been a month and I'm still getting ammonia when I test it but I see that it may be a few more weeks yet till it cycles, hopefully.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It takes time - in some cases up to 3 months. Too, an individuals water chemistry can play a large role in cycling, so that's something to look at if you are having trouble. Some people are blessed with better water than others, and those with such issues should seek special help to figure out a solution, rather than follow a guide. If you are still showing ammonia after a month, I would start a thread providing as much info as you can so we can see what's what.


----------



## Piyoteru (Apr 17, 2014)

I had wondered about this before too. A lot of people seemed to say it is hard- but I didn't see how a smaller tank would stop beneficial bacteria growing in a filter if there's water and a source of ammonia.


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Piyoteru said:


> I had wondered about this before too. A lot of people seemed to say it is hard- but I didn't see how a smaller tank would stop beneficial bacteria growing in a filter if there's water and a source of ammonia.



You can cycle a cup if you really wanted to lol. I'd say that would have to be a planted tank as I'm fairly certain no company has found a market in "cup" appropriate filters .. I could be wrong ;-) measuring prime for your water would be really absurd too . Just throwing it out there that it can be done .. Stock? Some type if itty bitty snail ? 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

I am beginning to be jealous of other ppl's water.  I've been attempting to cycle a 29 gallon and a 10 gallon. Ironically, my 2.5 gallon minibow that I had before, cycled with no problem. And everyone told me that IT would be much harder to cycle than the larger tanks. pfft i say.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

OK, you've made a convincing argument.  So say I want to get Azoo palm mini HOB filters for my tanks. (Because I know you're right - having a filter will improve the water quality in my tank, which in turn will keep my Bettas healthier.)

1) Will the Azoo palm mini HOB fit on a acrylic tank with a snap-on plastic lid (such as a critter keeper or one of those small plastic tanks that Petsmart/Petco sells)? 

2) What else (besides the Azoo filter) do I need to buy? (plastic tubing? pump? etc? replacement pads?) Knowing this will allow us to buy everything at once.

Then, once I have it set up:

3) How often do I need to change the filter pads? How simple/difficult is this?

4) How often do I need to test the water parameters? Do I need to test ammonia, nitrates and nitrites? 

5) What if someone doesn't own a testing kit? Can they just do, say 50% weekly water changes, and assume that the filter is making their water cleaner? (This goes back to your poll of how much people want to know about their tanks. Some people will want to do daily water testing, others won't.)


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The filter would fit but you'd need to do some mods to the critter keeper lid if you wanted it.

The only thing you need are replacement sponges for when the time comes, otherwise it comes with everything you need!

Changing filter pads is simple, you keep the pad in there until it's literally breaking apart. Once it starts to really get nasty, squeeze a fresh sponge in with the old one and let it sit for two weeks to become seeded; at that point you can take out the old one. To increase sponge life, when you do a water change simply squeeze out the sponge in old tank water and swish it around, this cleans it of gunk and keeps the filter running properly while extending its life.

You're supposed to test weekly but it depends, if you're cycling a tank then it's best to try to test daily to make sure everything is in check since you'd be doing a fish in cycle at this point I'm assuming? After the cycle, you should test fairly regularly although I never really do unless it looks like something is off. But if you do your weekly/bi weekly changes depending on tank size, there shouldn't be huge issues.

If you don't own a kit, you can take a sample to a store and they can test it; ask for specific numbers though. But techncially, yes they could continue on their merry way of doing twice weekly changes 

-----------------------------
Also on the item of cycling, I didn't read the entirety of the first post but I've run into this thing where bacteria go dormant in pH's under ~7.2. My pH is readily around 6.5 which means I cannot cycle my tanks without buffering them, in this case, having a planted tank is convenient, as the plants establish themselves they will take care of the excess ammonia. But this is just my issue is all.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

(Note: I'm trying to make this as inclusive as possible.... I want to find a way that even people who don't want to spend a lot of time with "tank mechanics" (Ie: they've chosen a low number on Jaysee's poll on the other thread) can set this up.)


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> OK, you've made a convincing argument.  So say I want to get Azoo palm mini HOB filters for my tanks. (Because I know you're right - having a filter will improve the water quality in my tank, which in turn will keep my Bettas healthier.)
> 
> 1) Will the Azoo palm mini HOB fit on a acrylic tank with a snap-on plastic lid (such as a critter keeper or one of those small plastic tanks that Petsmart/Petco sells)?
> 
> ...


1. Yes, though it will require customization. You will have to cut through the plastic on the hood for the filter to hang, which will likely reqiure the removal of the pin that holds the lid on to the tank. The lid will function just the same without being attached to the tank, and I think you'll find it easier to work with the tank that way. I'm sure there are some kinds that are designed in such a way that it will not accommodate the filter, such as if the lighting element prevents you from being able to cut into the hood.

2. All you need to buy, besides the filter, is a pack of Aquaclear20 sponges to use for media. It comes with media, but the sponge is an improvement over the pads it comes with. Too, you can use a piece of the sponge as a prefilter, over the intake strainer. The sponge is just real handy.

3. I have never once changed the sponge. The pads do lose their integrity over time, and need to be replaced. There is room in the filter to place the new pad, so that it can get seeded before you toss the old one. However, you can get several washes from a pad before it starts to fall apart. Its just way easier to use sponge. It cuts easy - cut the sponge to fit the filter, and then cut that in half - now you cam clean half of the media at a time and not risk damaging your cycle. Too, now you have a piece of seeded media you can remove from the tank to get an instant cycle on a new tank. You shouldnt have to clean the filter media very often. I clean mine once or twice a year. Not that thats what everyone should go do. If you have plants you'll likely have to clean more often than that as plant matter can clog things up a lot faster than one fishs poop. Once a month cleanings would be as aggressive a schedule as I would recommend.

Its very easy to do - lift the lid, pull the media out with your fingers. You don't even have to turn off the filter. Just go slow when putting it back in - jam in it fast and water will overflow from the filter.

4. Once your tank is cycled you don't HAVE to test for anything really. Its good to keep testing though, until you're familiar and comfortable. Eventually you will get tired of testing for ammonia and nitrite and getting 0s for both, and the frequency with which you test will diminish. Many people with cycled tanks never test their water. Nitrates you can test for - you can see how quickly it accumulates in the tank and you can use that to determine your water change schedule. Common advise is to keep nitrates lower than 40. Some take it a little further and say 20 ppm. Regardless, you can use that as a mark for when to change the water. You'll find the rate of nitrate production to be constant, so if it takes 2 weeks to get to 20 ppm this time, it's going to take 2 weeks next time too. Once you settle into your water change schedule, testing for nitrates isn't all that important.

5. You don't NEED to test if you are going to just stick to a schedule. Its certainly valuable for knowing when your tank has cycled, but after that, yes, just doing a weekly 50% water change and trusting the filter is doing it's job is all thats needed. For someone new to filters, it will be tough to trust at first. But in time you will, and you won't even think about it.


----------



## relaxedcrazyman (Dec 19, 2013)

well put!

i HIGHLY recommend a small sponge filter.

it did take about 2 months for my 2.5g to cycle. but now i dont worry about such frequent water changes and i dont have to worry about Hades getting sick :-D


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> (Note: I'm trying to make this as inclusive as possible.... I want to find a way that even people who don't want to spend a lot of time with "tank mechanics" (Ie: they've chosen a low number on Jaysee's poll on the other thread) can set this up.)


Hahaha, now thats funny... people choosing low numbers. You know, I made the poll anonymous as to encourage those that would only rate themselves lower than 5 to vote without fear of being labeled as someone who "doesn't care".


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Yes.. Ammonia turns to ammonium at 6.5ph which can effectively stall a cycle .. Which then raising your KH would assist .. But let's not hope too many battle with that . 6.6+ should all be fine as this does not happen at all then . 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, with my area we all have to battle with it here :-/ at my dad's it was a steady 6.2 from the tap, I have to recheck my water here at mom's but I know it's below the 7.2 drop off point as well. Not even the fact that ammonia turns to ammonium but the bacteria go dormant under ~7.2, that's my issue.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The bacterias efficiency is tied to pH - the higher the more efficient. As the pH drops so does efficiency, which means a larger bacteria colony is required to do the same job. To counter this, flow rate and/or volume of media must be increased. 7.2 is definitely not the cut off point for BB - they function all the way down into the mid to low 6s.

If the bacteria went dormant at 7.2 all my fish would be dead.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Then why is it that everywhere I read says all the same thing that under 7.0 the bacteria go dormant. I'll try to find my sources later, currently doing other things.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I certainly have difficulty here with cycling tanks because our water comes out of the tap with the lowest KH value possible on the API test kit and the pH drops down to at least 6 in about 24 hours, meaning you have to add something like crushed coral if you want the pH to hold stable. 

I have to be careful when doing large water changes on my goldfish tank (the only tank in the house that is cycled) because I have had a couple of pH crashes that caused my cycle to stall and my ammonia levels to spike. 

I have tanks that were cycled with a pH around 6.8. But I think once you start to go below that, you will certainly run into trouble.


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm curious LBF.. Have you tried to buffer the KH in your other tanks then transfer a proper portion if filter media to instant cycle ? I'm not sure how that could fail ... But I'm sure it could . Just curious if you tried , 

I have not had to cycle a tank in yrs . Last time I had to was after losing my home in a fire .. Therefor I did not have the luxury if transferring mature media . I only vaguely remember the hardship of constant perameter Checking and water changing . Kinda like child birth ... You don't remember the pain till you're having the next .ive starting many a tank since that restart with instant cycling ., I'm willing to bet if you tried that as long as your PH wasn't 6.5 or less then you should be good ..


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah my goldfish tank is kept permanently buffered with crushed coral in the filter. I used to use seeded media from that to kick-start cycles in my other tanks when I needed to. 

However, before I realised the effect pH can have on a tank cycle I had a hell of a time trying to just get the whole process started. 

Now I just keep wild bettas and their pH is so low that it inhibits the growth of beneficial bacteria, so I use plants instead to act as my living filter and don't have any issues.


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Then why is it that everywhere I read says all the same thing that under 7.0 the bacteria go dormant. I'll try to find my sources later, currently doing other things.



My guess would be same as all bad info that spreads rampantly . It's parroted by new fish keepers who didn't know the whys behind it nor the importance of the exact numbers .. For instance someone heard a low PH value of 6.5 could stall a cycle because the ammonia *and they stopped listening here*. They see someone coming along with a mid 6s PH and trouble cycling .. Thinking they were being helpful told them anything below a PH of 7 would stall a cycle . Sure .. Because naturally 7 is easier to say then 6.5.. And to someone fresh to this the difference between those values are not understood . Now after this this next newbie repeats and spreads this erroneous misinformation ... Meaning to help .. But this is what happens when we don't research further .. And double check our sources . 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I like this post. I can't speak for others but I definitely wouldn't have thought cycling was this easy when I was a beginner. 

Sadly, I've never had to deal with a pH related cycle stall. I say sadly because I tend to be drawn towards fish that prefer acidic, soft water- of course. If the ammonia is converted to ammonium, would it not be safe despite not having an active beneficial bacteria colony? 

HOBs are great and all (if you are setting up a standard community tank that is absolutely what I would recommend) (I like the Aquaclear line and have heard good things about Azoo)... But I love my sponge filters. As someone who usually doesn't have high filtration needs and typically keeps fish that appreciate having little current, they work very well for me. They are also very inexpensive- you can easily filter four tanks for under 35$ (including airpump), and unlike outlet hogging HOBs you can run as many sponge filters as your (single outlet) pump will allow. 

The other option, and this is what LittleBettaFish mentioned, is relying on plants to keep water safe. Fast growing plants suck up the nitrogen compounds and use them for growth, a pretty nice relationship if you ask me. Some species really aren't that hard, and are no more difficult then keeping a plant-less tank- hornwort, duckweed (these two are especially good ammonia busters, and don't even need substrate), lots of other floaters, watersprite, etc come to mind. I do this with good results in some tanks, like with my sparkling gouramis.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

MattsBettas said:


> Sadly, I've never had to deal with a pH related cycle stall. I say sadly because I tend to be drawn towards fish that prefer acidic, soft water- of course. If the ammonia is converted to ammonium, would it not be safe despite not having an active beneficial bacteria colony?


Theoretically, yes, but it's just a little less toxic. It can still build up and become toxic as usual but given proper water change schedule it should be fine. But I solve my issue with my fully planted tanks


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

4 azoos cost less than $30 (assuming you can get free shipping). Thankfully one pump can filter multiple tanks - would drive me crazy to have several air pumps running. Haha one drives me crazy. Sponge filters definitely have their advantages though. However, knowing that the BB are less efficient at lower pHs, I wonder (as I have no experience with sponge filters) if they provide enough real estate or turnover to effectively filter the tank at lower pHs without the aid of plants. Which brings me to my last point - using plants to filter the tank. While great, it doesn't really teach anything about the BB and it's role in the aquarium. Of course one needn't not learn about that if they are successful with plants. If they aren't, then not only are the plants not filtering the water, but they are going to foul the water if one is not diligent.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Having reread my last post, I am definitely questioning whether or not a sponge filter is capable of cycling a low pH tank without the aid of plants. With such a diminished efficiency, the size of the BB colony would need to make up the difference, growing several times in size and/or the turnover rate would need to be increased to lower the ammonia concentration entering the filter. Real estate and flow rate are not strengths of sponge filters, as far as I know. Perhaps many of the issues are a matter of just not having enough filtration. I'm thinking out loud.


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

When you say low pH, what are you meaning? Because at a low pH (say 6.5 or below) you are most likely not going to be able to establish a cycle anyway because growth of bacteria is inhibited. Therefore would it matter whether or not a sponge filter has enough turnover etc.? 

Even when I had internal power filters, none of my low pH tanks (below 6.5) would cycle until I increased my pH. 

I have seen breeders of other fish using sponge filters in their tanks, but I'm not sure if that was in conjunction with another filter or if the large amount of water changes they were doing negated the need for cycling anyway.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBettaFish said:


> When you say low pH, what are you meaning? Because at a low pH (say 6.5 or below) you are most likely not going to be able to establish a cycle anyway because growth of bacteria is inhibited. Therefore would it matter whether or not a sponge filter has enough turnover etc.?
> 
> Even when I had internal power filters, none of my low pH tanks (below 6.5) would cycle until I increased my pH.



By low I mean less than 7. High is over 7. At a low pH yes it can be difficult because of the diminished efficiency. It takes a lot longer because a huge bacteria colony is required to get the job done. However, one can raise their pH for the purpose of cycling the tank and then take It back down afterwards. Maintaining water quality at that point is a matter of having enough real estate for the bacteria. If at the lower pH you're having trouble maintaining water quality, that means you need more media and/or higher turnover rate.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Ammonia test kits often don't distinguish between NH3 and NH4+. They just give you a "total" reading. Therefore, if your API test kit turns light green, it only tells you that the combined NH3/NH4+ reading is approximately 0.25ppm. But it doesn't tell you how much of each is present..... 

We know that at a higher pH, there is more NH3 present (bad), and at lower pH, there is a shift towards a higher amount of NH4+ (less toxic). So below is an estimate of the relative percentages of NH3 at different pH values. 

*At a water temp of 25C (77F):
pH 6.0: Approximately 0.056% of Total Ammonia is in the form of NH3.
pH 7.0: Approximately 0.56% of Total Ammonia is in the form of NH3.
pH 8.0: Approximately 5.6% of Total Ammonia is in the form of NH3.*

To determine how much NH3 is present, multiply the above % by the reading on your test kit. For example: Your test kit turns light green (0.25 ppm). 
If your pH is 7.0: 0.25ppm x (0.56/100) = 0.0014ppm NH3. 
At pH 6.0: 0.25ppm x (0.056/100) = 0.00014ppm NH3.

Assuming that the nitrifying bacteria require NH3 to grow, then it makes sense to me that the lower levels of NH3 (which occurs at the lower pH) will slow down their growth (and stall your cycle). They simply aren't getting enough "food."

(Please note: These numbers are estimates, and assumes that ONLY pH is the only factor in the equilibrium shift between NH3 and NH4+..... But this will at least give you an idea of the relative concentrations in your tank.)

*Note: The above was for those who scored a low value in Jaysee's poll.  For those of you who selected a 10, read on. (Insert evil laughter here.)*

I used the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation to determine the relative ratio of NH3 to NH4+ at different pH values: pH = pKa + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])

In the above equation, Ka is called the acid dissociation constant. All acidic substance, including NH4+, have these values. It's a measure of the extent to which the acidic NH4+ dissociates in water to become the basic NH3. The values are easiest to find for "room temp" which is considered to be 25C (77F). At this temperature, the pKa for NH4+ is 9.25.

Now on to the math: (Are you still rating yourself a 10 on Jaysee's poll?)

If your pH is 6.0:
pH = pKa + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])
6.00 = 9.25 + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])
The ratio of [NH3] to [NH4+] = 0.00056
Multiply by 100 to turn this into a percent.....
So 0.056% of the Total Ammonia reading on your test kit is due to the presence of NH3.

If your pH is 7.0:
pH = pKa + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])
7.00 = 9.25 + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])
The ratio of [NH3] to [NH4+] = 0.0056
So 0.56% of the Total Ammonia reading on your test kit is due to the presence of NH3.

If your pH is 8.0:
pH = pKa + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])
8.00 = 9.25 + log ([NH3]/[NH4+])
The ratio of [NH3] to [NH4+] = 0.0056
So 5.6% of the Total Ammonia reading on your test kit is due to the presence of NH3.

The above is in line with the pH scale, which is a logarithmic scale. Each increase/decrease of one unit is a ten-fold increase/decrease in the concentration of H+ ions. (H+ ions are what makes a substance acidic. More H+ ions = more acidity = lower pH.)


----------



## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

Ugh! Fish are not supposed to require math!  I'm dealing with low pH and debating trying to raise it to cycle. But higher pH means more toxic ammonia! So to go slower but with less toxicity concerns, or faster but with a higher level of toxic ammonia available? Man, impatience sucks


----------



## BlueLacee (Dec 8, 2013)

Wow, that cleared everything up


----------



## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Its below 6.0 IMO where you will have issues establishing a cycle. My 55g is currently at 6.4ph and it is night so CO2 injection is off. Midday with CO2 running close to 6.0 isn't uncommon. It has ~32 fish and a 2ft long eelish thing and it stays cycled just fine for well over a year now. The tank is densely planted but is cycled, it produces nitrate and I even clone other tanks off its mature media occasionally.

jaysee I think you underestimate sponge filters.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

aselvarial said:


> Ugh! Fish are not supposed to require math!  I'm dealing with low pH and debating trying to raise it to cycle. But higher pH means more toxic ammonia! So to go slower but with less toxicity concerns, or faster but with a higher level of toxic ammonia available? Man, impatience sucks



Definitely seems like the combination of a low pH and a small tank (limited space for bacteria growth) is the most difficult tank to cycle. 

Aside from the ammonia being more toxic at the higher pH, playing chemist with the water has a learning curve. Raising the pH in order to get the bacteria established faster is somewhat of a gamble, but if you are diligent then the odds will be in your favor for sure. Of course this thread kinda assumes that you are diligent, because it assumes that you are maintaining an uncycled tank . If you are comfortable with raising the pH, then I think that's a good thing to do. If you're not, then slow and steady is probably a better choice.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

For those who want to avoid math:

From a cycling perspective: Each unit decrease in pH means 10 times less NH3, which correlates to 10x less food for the nitrifying bacteria. Let's assume that nitrifying bacteria are very happy at a pH of about 8, and there is enough NH3 present to give them 100% of the food (NH3) they need.

pH 8: 100% of your food is available 
pH 7: Approx 10% of your food is available (the rest has converted to NH4+)
pH 6: Approx 1% of your food is available (the rest has converted to NH4+)

So at low pH, your cycle stalls. 

(Note: it's not quite this straightforward. There are many other factors involved, such as temperature, salinity, etc.)

From a toxic to fish perspective: Each unit decrease in pH means 10 times less NH3, which means there is less of this toxic substance in the water. (However, from what I've read, NH4+ isn't completely non-toxic.)

So say your Test Kit shows you have 0.25ppm ammonia. But you can't tell from the test whether it's in the form of NH3 (bad) or NH4+ (less bad).

However, at a pH of 8, there would be approx 10 times as much ammonia (bad) as if your pH was 7, etc.

At a pH of 6, you'd have about 1/100th the amount of ammonia as someone whose pH was 8. So your tank cycle would stall (or at least slow down), but there'd also be less chance of your fish getting ammonia poisoning.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Mikaila31 said:


> jaysee I think you underestimate sponge filters.



I'm not gonna lie - I hate them ;-)

I know that they can get the job done. I was just theorizing that perhaps in some situations they might struggle


----------



## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Okay I basically failed my last year of chemistry in high school, but in an article on 'nitrifying bacteria' on Wikipedia (I know it's Wikipedia), it seems to suggest that these bacteria can consume and convert ammonium as well as ammonia into nitrite:



> Nitrification in nature is a two-step oxidation process of ammonium (NH4+) or ammonia (NH3) to nitrate (NO3-) catalyzed by two ubiquitous bacterial groups. The first reaction is oxidation of ammonium to nitrite by ammonium oxidizing bacteria (AOB) represented by the Nitrosomonas species. The second reaction is oxidation of nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate by nitrate-oxidizing bacteria (NOB), represented by the Nitrobacter species


I always thought it was just the acidic environment of low pH water that inhibits the growth of beneficial bacteria rather than the fact there is more ammonium than ammonia present. 

Is there anywhere that says these bacteria can't also consume and convert ammonium?


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Is there anywhere that says these bacteria can't also consume and convert ammonium?



Isn't that the claim made by some water conditioners?


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Gah! It gets worse! I thought you said this cycling stuff "just happens." (Which I guess it does, but now that I'm reading more about it....)

There appear to be two classes of bacteria that utilize ammonium. One group does it aerobically. The other does it anaerobically.

"_Until a few years ago, it was thought that the nitrogen cycle in its complexity, was a complete linear process. However, most recent scientific discoveries have greatly revolutionized our well-established knowledge on the nitrogen cycle and on the micro-organisms involved in such processes. As a matter of fact, the global cycle of nitrogen in the environment, particularly in that of marine, has been integrated with at least three new links which include: 
the oxidation of ammonium by a particular group of micro-organisms, the archaeabacteria (AOA);
the anaerobic reduction of nitrates into ammonium ion (DNRA);
the anaerobic oxidation processes of ammonium (ANAMMOX)."
_Source: Aquarium Chemistry: The Nitrogen Cycle: New Developments and New Prospects


----------



## Mikaila31 (Dec 18, 2008)

Nitrosommonas and nitrobacter bacteria we rely on in our tanks can certainly consume ammonium no differently then ammonia. If they couldn't cycling would be very difficult and products like Prime would stall the cycle out completely. 

All biological life has pH tolerances both external and internal. It has nothing to do with ammonium and all to do with the biochemistry of the enzymes that the bacteria require to metabolize. 

Anaerobic cycles typically do not occur in a normal aquarium as the condition required are hard to produce and maintain.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Gah! It gets worse! I thought you said this cycling stuff "just happens." (Which I guess it does, but now that I'm reading more about it....)



It does just happen - a lot easier for some than for others  While one size can fit most, one size doesn't fit all. Aquariums are a dynamic environment - there are a lot of variables that interact with each other to varying degrees, so fixes and solutions for fitting a situation Into the paradigm can come from all sides. And therein lies the debate


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

So wouldn't the best way to cycle a tank to be via having a slightly lower pH and lots of patience? A lower pH would shift the equilibrium to favor NH4+ over NH3, which is in the best interest of the fish's health. And eventually, the bacteria would consume the NH4+.

--------------------------------------------

I think my next fish is going to look like this:


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The best way to cycle a tank is a function of your specific circumstances. It will be different for someone who is deciding that they want to get a fish tank and cycle it versus someone who's been maintaining an uncycled tank for a period of time. The best way for someone who's been keeping a healthy betta in an uncycled tank is to continue doing what they've done that's brought them success, and wait for the cycle, whether it takes 1 month or 3 months. If you've been maintaining an uncycled tank for a period of time then waiting longer than normal for the cycle to complete shouldn't be a big deal, since if you weren't cycling the tank you'd be "waiting" anyway.

Now if someone were in a hurry, for whatever reason, then there are ways that you can manipulate the circumstances to speed things up, which of course will make the cycle more complicated.


----------



## jessriggy (Apr 7, 2014)

oh god I am cringing, i cleaned my filter last night. More rinsed it out in the used tank water (not new water). Have i crushed my cycle?


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

jessriggy said:


> oh god I am cringing, i cleaned my filter last night. More rinsed it out in the used tank water (not new water). Have i crushed my cycle?


Not at all! That's what your supposed to do with it! Never use Unconditioned water but it doesn't matter if it's old tank water or just some water you got from the sink and conditioned it, as long as its conditioned your cycle will be totally fine!


----------



## jessriggy (Apr 7, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Not at all! That's what your supposed to do with it! Never use Unconditioned water but it doesn't matter if it's old tank water or just some water you got from the sink and conditioned it, as long as its conditioned your cycle will be totally fine!


oh thank god. I thought this was about not touching your filter at all, mine looked a bit crummy so i rinsed it out in my old water i was about to change.

How often should I be doing water changes? It's 5 gallon and ive been doing 25-50% daily changes. However, its been a month and this is tiring. Do i absolutely need to do this many? ive been considering changing to every second day, though I only want to do this if its not going to compromise my water. Usually when i was checking my water before I changed it, it barely read any ammonia (maybe just .25 if i was being paranoid).


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

jessriggy said:


> oh thank god. I thought this was about not touching your filter at all, mine looked a bit crummy so i rinsed it out in my old water i was about to change.
> 
> How often should I be doing water changes? It's 5 gallon and ive been doing 25-50% daily changes. However, its been a month and this is tiring. Do i absolutely need to do this many? ive been considering changing to every second day, though I only want to do this if its not going to compromise my water. Usually when i was checking my water before I changed it, it barely read any ammonia (maybe just .25 if i was being paranoid).


Oh you can totally touch the filter lol, just don't rinse in unconditioned water OR throw out the media before stuffing new media in to seed for around 2 weeks if you can. If not, it won't kill it completely but you may end up with a Mini-cycle since bacteria don't just colonize in the filter but also on the surfaces of everything, they just prefer the filter over the other stuff; they like the fast water movement.

So your tank is still cycling? Technically you don't have to do any water changes while it is cycling, doing those daily changes will keep your fish safe but it will also prolong the cycle as we were talking about before.


----------



## jessriggy (Apr 7, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Oh you can totally touch the filter lol, just don't rinse in unconditioned water OR throw out the media before stuffing new media in to seed for around 2 weeks if you can. If not, it won't kill it completely but you may end up with a Mini-cycle since bacteria don't just colonize in the filter but also on the surfaces of everything, they just prefer the filter over the other stuff; they like the fast water movement.
> 
> So your tank is still cycling? Technically you don't have to do any water changes while it is cycling, doing those daily changes will keep your fish safe but it will also prolong the cycle as we were talking about before.


yep its still cycling. well, god knows if it is, i havent noticed any nitrites let alone nitrates. I've been worried my daily water changes have been slowing the cycling down. I've been diligent because he bit his fins, but they're growing back nicely now so I'm considering making my changes every second day.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

It's really not advisable to touch the filter until after the tank has cycled. It's okay for the filter media to look dirty - I think that's going to be one of the biggest changes/challenges for many betta keepers. Like I had said, if you want to be meticulous about cleaning everything, you can still do that (in most cases). But you have to let the filter be "dirty" so that it can do its job. FAR more good will come from leaving the filter be than from cleaning it, I promise. I know that that's counterintuitive to those that obsess over cleaning their tank - be happy that the filter media is not on display in the tank 

You will learn the difference between dirty and DIRTY - most people leave their filters be until they see the flow is reduced, which is when the filter is DIRTY, which is when it gets "cleaned". It's not BAD the way that you did it - cleaning the media in tank or conditioner tap water is how you clean newly cycled media. It's possible that you may have set yourself back a little since your tank is not cycled yet, but since there is no defined end, that doesn't really matter. If your tank takes an extra 3 days to finish the cycle because you cleaned the filter, you wouldn't know.


Once the bacteria colony is well established in the tank, you can freely clean the media with tap water. You don't want to make it "like new", but you can use the power of the faucet to get the gunk out. While theoretically that may harm your bacteria, practically it does not - lots of people use tap water to clean, myself included. It just requires way more contact time with the chlorine to make a noticeable negative impact in an established tank. Again, in a NEWLY cycled tank, you should stick to tank water.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

So is this pretty much a summary of how to do this? 
 Add a filtration system to the tank.
 Keep doing water changes. (How much? Currently, most of us do one 100% and one 50% per week on our small tanks. But that full water change would need to be reduced to a partial.)
 Do frequent "ammonia" testing to measure the NH3/NH4+ concentration. When it starts to climb, increase the frequency of the partial water changes.
4) Have patience. 

I'm still concerned about pH though. Fish that live in a lower pH tank will be less affected by any increase in "ammonia" levels than fish in a higher pH environment. So people whose water has a higher pH would need to be more careful of rising NH3 levels..... But, I suppose the same is true of uncycled tanks. Someone whose water has a high pH and neglects a water change is going to be putting the fish under more stress than someone whose water is more acidic. So I guess the "take home" message is that I need to get over this pH concern.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

jaysee said:


> It's really not advisable to touch the filter until after the tank has cycled. It's okay for the filter media to look dirty - I think that's going to be one of the biggest changes/challenges for many betta keepers. Like I had said, if you want to be meticulous about cleaning everything, you can still do that (in most cases). But you have to let the filter be "dirty" so that it can do its job. FAR more good will come from leaving the filter be than from cleaning it, I promise. I know that that's counterintuitive to those that obsess over cleaning their tank - be happy that the filter media is not on display in the tank


Me. You're talking about me. :shake: 

You definitely need to include the above info in your guide. 

(As a side note: mycobacteria (IF it's present) thrives in clean tanks. It's a slow-growing bacteria. It can't compete against the fast-growing types for nutrients, so the presence of other bacteria helps keep its numbers in check. By cleaning the tank, we wipe out the fast-growing bacteria. This means that more nutrients are available for Myco.....)


----------



## MameJenny (Jun 11, 2012)

This is a good guide.  I've found it strange that a lot of betta owners don't cycle their tanks, or are even of the opinion that small tanks can't be cycled. You can cycle just about any amount of water, and even very tiny tanks can have a stable cycle. I've got a couple of them with bettas. Cycled tanks are nice.


----------



## aselvarial (Feb 21, 2014)

huh, I wonder for some of us with low pH and no patience, if it is possible to cycle a small spare tank quickly (say a quarantine tank), by raising the pH, and buying the bacteria in a bottle? could you just use water from the big tanks (the ones with fish) for the ammonia, and thus create a colony in the small tank that could be used to seed the larger already stocked tanks? or would the bacteria hibernate/die once they went into the tank with a lower pH? that way fish wouldn't be affected but one doesn't need to wait an eternity for a colony. hmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

The ammonia isn't going to climb any more than it already does in your uncycled tank - that's what you're constantly battling in an uncycled tank.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> So is this pretty much a summary of how to do this?
> Add a filtration system to the tank.
> 
> 1. Yes
> ...


It's a trade off with the pH - the bacteria are much more efficient at processing the ammonia at higher pHs, so while it's more toxic because of the higher percentage of ammonia vs ammonium, a much smaller bacteria colony is required to get the job done, which means a shorter cycle. Because bacteria is less efficient at processing ammonia at lower pHs, a much larger colony is required to do the same job. Yes it's less toxic because most is ammonium. It's almost like it was designed that way  I think both high and low pH have their advantages and disadvantages with respect to cycling.

For someone with low pH, I think raising the pH during a fishless cycle is a good idea, as is building up the bacteria colony by dosing ammonia. Let's say that the bacteria colony runs at 100% efficiency above 7 and 50% below 7 (just for the sake of discussion). When you cycle the tank at a high pH you will get say 100 bacterias (again numbers are for demonstration only). Now when the pH falls back below 7, now you'll need 200 bacterias to do the same job, leaving you with excess ammonia. However, if you built up te colony at the high pH to 200 bacterias, then when you lower the pH (and stop the extra ammonia dosing) you will have enough bacteria to do the job with no excess ammonia.

It


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Azoo Palm Filters have been added to all tanks.  

I used Aquaclear20 sponges (cut to size), rather than the sponges that were included with the filter. 

The filters came with a black sponge to put over the intake. (This isn't shown in the Drs Foster & Smith photo, but it's a small sponge with a hole in it that slides easily over the intake.) If it starts to fall apart over time, I'll replace it with some of the Aquaclear20.

Overall, there's a slight humming noise. It got worse when I put the covers on, so I've left them open for now. (I may push some sponge behind the filter to see if it dampens the hum.)

Tomorrow, I'll modify the tank lids by cutting out a section. 

One fish has been playing in the flow all day. 
One fish has been hiding in his cave all day. (He doesn't respond well to "change!")
One fish doesn't even seem to notice that his tank has a new filter. 

Tomorrow is water change day. I'll do a large (but not full) water change, then test the water parameters so that I know where I'm starting from.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I actually prefer the intake without the sponge for my bettas (use them for my guppy fry though) because my HM was always getting his fins caught on them. Maybe it was just him but I don't chance it anymore.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I figured it would provide additional surface area for the bacteria to colonize, so I added them. 

So far, only one has shown any interest in it, and his fins are short (right now). I'll keep an eye on him though.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Week 2 update:

I really like the filters. And so do the fish. They are more active (as compared to pre-filter days). 

I've been doing one 80-90% and one 50% water change per week. The water looks good - very clear with hardly any debris. (I use a turkey baster to clean the bottom.) I use a slight excess of Prime, just in case there is some residual ammonia.

One filter seems to be developing a bit of green algae on the Aquarclear sponge. Is this a problem? (Surprisingly, it's not the tank near the window.)

I still hate the humming noise. It would be fine if there was just one or two tanks. But when I stand in the middle of the room, I hear three of them simultaneously, which causes a stereo-effect. However, if I turn on the TV (or anything else that makes noise), I can't hear them anymore. (I've taken to just turning on the TV when I'm in the room.)

Note: While the goal is to "Cycle an uncycled tank without really trying," I went ahead and tested some water parameters anyway. Ammonia is at 0 ppm, with a pH of about 7.1. 

So I'm very happy with the simplicity and progress to this point. I don't know whether my tanks are cycled or not, but I feel that adding the filters was easy to do, and has resulted in improved health for the fish. 

End of update.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

HoB filters can take some time to break in. Too, they can take some playing with to get quiet. Sometimes a strategically placed piece of foam is all that's needed. Or for the lid to be placed just so. I find mine is quieter when the lid is placed on top, as opposed to being put in place. It's counterintuitive I know, but that's my experience with it. I bet a ring of silicone around the rim would quiet the lid rattle. Let the silicone dry before placing the lid on top


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)




----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, I have foam behind the filter, and another piece on top of the tank between the top lip and filter's bottom. 

The covers are off right now, as that lessened the hum, too.

I'll continue playing around with the placement of the foam pieces. Hopefully, the filters will quiet down a little with time, and/or I'll find the 'best' locations for the foam.

I particularly like that your "tank water level" is written in English. Mine is not (but I assumed that it indicated the minimum water level). 

Also, I just moved in and am still unpacking. Once that's done, there will be more "stuff" in the room, which should help absorb some of the noise, too.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh that's funny, not written in English? Sounds like my car >.<

I left the lid off mine but stuffed some plants in it including a rotting Philodendron, Mondo Grass and a "Lucky" Bamboo dracanae, it's quite lovely and helps with my water quality!


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Just got my azoo filter . It's so cute . Like a teeny tiny baby aquaclear . Plan to run it on my new pico tank I've had now a couple weeks . Currently planted and has 3 pink ramshorn snails a mystery snail and an unidentified baby snail .. Pretty sure the cycle is under way . Not cleaned anything .. Just water changes by way of tiny syphon . Left all else alone to if it's job . .5g will eventually be home to a lone nano fish . Either a scarlet badis or a Pygmy guarami once the filter helps end the cycle . 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Carbon if left to be in a filter after it's active period is actually a great home for BB. But yes looking at the make of the azoo it is better then most small tank filters . You can use sponge from a mature filter and instant cycle a new filter or even tank . I highly recommend this method . 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I personally think your fine to clean all your media in tank water . Improves your flow rate and cleanliness of the tank and no harm to bb


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Lilnaugrim - I like the idea of plants! I just went and cut several pieces of pothos to put in everyone's filters. 

Below is my setup. You can see the bits of foam behind and under the filter. (I opened the lid a bit so that you could see the foam under the filter.).... 

The cord over the top is from the heater. I moved it out of the way so you could see the non-English writing. (Does it say "tank water level"???  )


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

This morning, I found my little VT in the filter - and he was NOT MOVING!!! :shock:

I turned off the power, tossed the lid on the floor, and turned the filter upside down into the tank. The little guy sunk downwards.... lay on the bottom.... and started to swim!

OMG. That was a heart attack moment for both of us, I think. His fins are a little tattered and clamped, but he seems OK. He's swimming around, but not trying to climb into the filter. I'll have to put some mesh over his "staircase," I think.


----------



## jennandjuicetm (May 4, 2014)

jaysee said:


> The bacterias efficiency is tied to pH - the higher the more efficient. As the pH drops so does efficiency, which means a larger bacteria colony is required to do the same job. To counter this, flow rate and/or volume of media must be increased. 7.2 is definitely not the cut off point for BB - they function all the way down into the mid to low 6s.
> 
> If the bacteria went dormant at 7.2 all my fish would be dead.


Thank you so much for this valuable information! My tank water is about 6.8 ph and I've been having trouble cycling. This explains why. I added another filter last night so hopefully this increased surface are and flow will help kick the cycle in to growth!


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Sold out for a month?! I hope there's a check on the way..... ;-)

The filter is sold under several names - they're all the same as far as I know. However, I had seen somewhere that they came out with a new version so there is the new and the old; they may not be exactly the same though they are for all intents and purposes.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh wow LittleBlue!!! I'm glad he was okay! I have guppy fry in with my Azoo filter so, thankfully, they don't or never have jumped in this tank. I can see where that would be an issue with a much more curious Betta :shock: yeah, covering his little slide might be a good thing to do!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I've also seen the Palm under Mignon as well which is actually the one I have, not technically the Palm, still Azoo though.


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Red Sea Art Deco nano filter is another name it has been sold as.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

The box on mine said "Azoo Mignon Filter 60 Generation II." 

I caught the little Betta eyeing the "slide" tonight. Crazy fish....

I think I'm going to turn the current flow up to "maximum" in an effort to keep him away from it. I'll need to get to the crafts store to pick up some plastic canvas.


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I blame Jaysee.... 

It was so easy to stick the little Azoo filters on my 3 gal tanks, that I've 'upgraded.'

Petsmart had a sale on 10 gal tanks..... I got one. With a filter..... 

I set the tank up, using half the sponge from a Betta tank. (I figure by now, it must have some bacteria on it!) 

Then, I added a little school of neon tetras. (Yeah, I know they don't do well in new tanks. But they're cute. Hopefully, they'll live.)

I'll give it a few weeks. Then, if all goes well, I'll move a Betta in. 

(If I had a place to put it, I'd have gotten a 20 gal, but....)


----------



## Agent13 (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh yay ! Is this your first instant cycle attempt? Now that you see how easy it can be there is no hope for you >.< . You just took your fish keeping to another level .


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## jaysee (Dec 9, 2009)

Instant cycle is how you go from a couple tanks to a dozen


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

+1 truth right there! lol


----------



## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

The instant cycle worked really well. I'm also adding a bit of Prime inbetween water changes, just in case.

Neon tetras are very different from Bettas. But I've already figured out that if they get nippy, it means the water quality is starting to deteriorate.  

I'm already trying to figure out how to make room for a bigger tank.


----------

