# Please Help me! My betta's right side is swollen!



## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Hello Everyone, 

I've had my betta for almost a year. I keep him in a filtered aquarium tank and feed him hikari betta pellets 3 times a day, usually 5-10 pellets each. He has a heater that keeps the temperature around 85 F. 

I went on vacation and kept him in the care of a friend. After I returned, I noticed behavioral changes, he stopped eating, started spending time in the bottom of the tank and didn't swim. I cleaned his water tank and changed his water, which seemed to improve things. He now swims around more. 


Two days ago, I noticed he had a bulge on his right side only. I don't know if it's a tumor or because of overfeeding or if its dropsy. I have bought all possible medications and need help diagnosing him. I've included a picture.

I love my betta, and want to do anything I can to save his life! Can someone please tell me what's wrong with him and how to treat him?


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## jona31 (May 19, 2013)

it may be bloat or he might be constipated search up bloat and constipation syndromes in betta fish


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Thank you so much for responding! I really hope that's the case, I've started following instructions on how to treat for constipation.


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## jona31 (May 19, 2013)

your welcome


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No that actually looks like a cyst. Very common and it usually doesn't hurt them so much. You can use a low dosage of Epsom salt to help him get rid of the extra fluid, 1 teaspoon per gallon, mix up the salt in a separate container and add in a dribble every 10 minutes or more until it's all in. Important that you dissolve it first though, as salt dissolves it actually releases heat which can burn your betta but is fine afterwards.

Cysts will come and go but if that sucker pops, it won't be good. So just do the Epsom salt (100% Magnesium Sulfate no additives or scent found at wal-mart/pharmacy store not pet store) and then just do either a full water change if you can or half of it every other day to get rid of anything nasty that he's excreted. So once you take out the water, you also take out salt, so if you take out 2 gallons, you replace 2 teaspoons because you are doing 1 teaspoon per gallon. So if it's say a 5 gallon tank, you use 5 teaspoons. okay?

Do that for about a week to see how he reacts to it.

Also you are over feeding, he doesn't need 3 meals a day. One meal a day will suffice with 6-10 pellets, eating 30 pellets a day is very bad. So cut out on that and if you like, you can give him one Fasting day a week. So one day a week that he doesn't eat so that it keeps his digestive track moving and nothing get stuck in there and makes him constipated or bloated, okay?


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Thank you so much for those instructions!!! I will start using Epsom salts today and do full water changes just like you mentioned. Today is the first day I've started fasting him and I will cut back on his food intake as well. 


I really hope it's not something fatal, I can't imagine losing him!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Cysts usually aren't fatal, even if they open up you should then be able to treat with *Aquarium* salt but for now to reduce the swelling use *Epsom*. Cysts will come and go so this one may go away or burst and then another can come along, same thing happens in humans although it's much more risky to try to remove it from fish.

It can be fatal but usually they'll be fine, just make him comfortable is all 

You can still feed him normally as I did mention so today can be fasting and then just feed him as I suggested tomorrow  He'll still need to keep up his strength. Also make sure to take out any uneaten food so it doesn't spoil your water ^_^

So just make sure you dissolve the salt, I use a little cup, measure out the salt and with some tank water in there, stir it around and then you can dribble it into the tank a little at a time. You can do one teaspoon per 15 minutes if you want to measure it that way. And then when you change his water, put the salt in before you put him back (if you're doing 100% change) and then if he's in a cup, float him in his tank and add a Tablespoon of new tank water to his tank every 10 minutes to acclimate him to it 

I hope he does well and update or ask questions as needed!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I I did the water change and added epsom salt instead of aquarium salt. He was acting very aggressive without food, so I just decided to feed him today and fast him tomorrow while I'm out. I'll stick to 100% water changes for the next 7 days. 

He's swimming around and seems normal. I will keep you posted about his progress - hopefully his bulge subsides. Thank you so much for your help! I was going crazy these past few days trying to figure out what's wrong with him!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay! Sounds good! I'll keep a lookout for it then ^_^ I hope it does go away at least, it's never fun dealing with cysts and I know first hand unfortunately ><


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey lilnaugrim, 

I woke up this morning and noticed a few thread like strings attached to four of his lower fins. It's only visible under sunlight. He isn't swimming as much as yesterday. There's nothing on his body or mouth though. Is that cotton wool disease?


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## jona31 (May 19, 2013)

that could be a fungus or possibly hair that got in your tank cant really tell unless I see a pic, Hows his Cyst


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Millowsan said:


> Hey lilnaugrim,
> 
> I woke up this morning and noticed a few thread like strings attached to four of his lower fins. It's only visible under sunlight. He isn't swimming as much as yesterday. There's nothing on his body or mouth though. Is that cotton wool disease?


Nope, he's shedding his slime coat. It often happens when you use salt in the water on the freshwater fish. What it's doing is aggitating the slime coat so that your fish is now overproducing his slime coat so in order to get rid of the old slime coat, he sheds it. That's what you're seeing now. Perfectly normal and he'll be fine  Now if you start seeing slimy patches on his body, then that would be more something like a Body Slime Infection but I'm certain he doesn't have that 

Cottonmouth or Columnaris would appear as cottony balls or tufts on him and his fins. Some strains are easier to treat than others, often I find if the columnaris is on the fins, it's easy to treat with AQ salt and after a few days they're good to go again. but anyway it doesn't appear stringy so that's not what he's got ^_^


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

it was his slime coat, the strings disappeared when I came to take photos of it. I'm slightly going paranoid because of the cyst! I took some more photos of him today, the bulge is still there. I'm going to do his second water change now.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Good ^_^

Hmm his fins are lookin a bit ragged as well, poor dear. You can use some Stress Coat to help heal those tears up, it contains Aloe Vera in it which helps heal the fin membrane very well  It takes time but it will heal quicker with Stress Coat if you can find it.

Also, does he have a heater in there with him?


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

You're right, his fins aren't in the best condition. I've started using API stress coat since Monday. How long does it usually take for his fins to become healthy again? 

He does have a submersible eheim heater in his aquarium and a water filter. I don't know if that's the best heater to use because I feel like the water temperature fluctuates a little more than it should. 

Right now he's in a 5 Gallon tank, but I'm planning to move him into a bigger tank so he has more space to swim in. I just hope he pulls through this


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Is it an adjustable one? Eheim is usually a really great company to get things from, and 5 gallons is totally awesome for one fish! But if you feel he needs more room, I'm sure he won't complain ^_^

As for fin growth, it depends on the fish and their age. A younger fish will regenerate their fins quicker than an older fish. Also their diet, a good diet which what you've been doing looks great, will stimulate fin growth as well as clean, warm water and Stress Coat.

Generally I find that most tears will heal within about 2 weeks because it just needs to stitch back together basically. But when it comes to tears and chunks that have been taken out, it takes a lot longer to heal because it needs to regrow the whole fin. So my boy in my avatar, Rembrandt, actually had bitten a chunk from his tail fin in frustrate a while ago and it took him just about two months to fully heal, one month it looked pretty good but still was missing a little at the end to complete his full halfmoon form. He's about 11 months old at this point so he's almost a year old! (wow crazy how time flies!)

So since he does look just a tad older I speculate that it will take about 2-3 weeks for that first tear to heal but that second one looks like a whole ray was taken out so that will take a little while longer. But as I said, good, clean, warm water is key as well as their diet and keeping them comfortable and he'll be right as rain soon!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Yes it's an adjustable one. My aquarium tank is circular so I feel something which is wider would allow him more room to swim. I got Papadoupolos in August, 2012, when he was little, so I'm sure he's a year old now. 

Yikes! I had no idea betta's can bite their own fins off!! Right now I'm using Hikari betta pellets - I think I should perhaps add more variety to his diet. 

Thank you so much for all your help! This is my first betta and I really want him to be happy. I hope he gets better soon


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah they can! They're very talented little suckers lol, it's unfortunate though when they do because they usually have gorgeous finnage and then they ruin it!

But anyway, yes a varied diet will certainly be a good step forward. You wouldn't like to eat broccoli your whole life right? So your Betta would like variety as well ;-) As far as food goes you want things that don't have many fillers in it like wheat, corns and soybean products. You look at the first three ingredients to see the most important ingredients. Like Omega One is super good because their first three ingredients are: Whole Salmon, Halibut, and Shrimp so you see no fillers in the first three, that's what you look for. Even if it has one filler in the first three, it's better than most food. Like New Life Spectrum which is: Whole Antarctic krill meal, whole herring meal, whole wheat flour. So only one filler which isn't too bad, most NLS also contains garlic to help ward off internal parasites as well so that's good.

I'm sure he'll be getting better soon! I know the lump isn't going to be fun for him but it shouldn't be fatal at the moment, let me know if it changes; get's bigger/smaller.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I've ordered the food you mentioned for him! I wanted to update you about his condition. His swelling hasn't become bigger or smaller as far as I can tell. I've cut back on his food as well and he's become a lot more hyper! He literally jumps out of the water when I feed him to catch his pellets even before it lands into the water. He does summersaults in the water when it's feeding time - I've really never seen him so active - I don't know if he's doing this out of hunger. He swims around a lot more and his fins are already mending! I'm still doing 100 percent water changes daily and this thursday will be the 7th day. Should I still be worried about the bulge on his right side since there hasn't been any changes yet?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No he's just really happy! Being overfed all the time can make him feel lethargic and not active, same as it does in humans. So now that he's getting the right amount and with good water changes, he's so much happier!

If there hasn't been changes to the bulge then keep the AQ treatment up until 14 days, if you see his bulge getting bigger than immediately stop. AQ salt actually makes them retain fluid so I was worried about him swelling or anything to the AQ salt but if you haven't seen any effect then he's sure to be fine. But if there was a reaction to it then you just stop the AQ salt, give a full days rest of all salts and then switch to Epsom salt which is used as a laxative so that he can release his fluids, you see?

It might be worth a try to do an Epsom treatment after all the AQ treatment and his fins are all settled. If the Epsom doesn't help then there's really nothing you can do for the bulge, it doesn't look tumor in nature to me so if it is a cyst then you just have to watch out for it popping is all. But he should be okay


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Right now I've been using Epsom salt with every water change, so it's been 5 days with Epsom salt. On Friday, should I switch to AQ salt?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh okay! In that case since there has been no changes with the cyst then you can switch to the AQ salt when you want, just make sure he's got a full day rest of just clean water at least so it doesn't stress his kidney's.

If the Epsom seemed like it was helping then feel free to continue it, but since it has neither gone down or gotten bigger, I don't think it's really helping.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I've replaced his water but I've noticed that his bulge has become slightly bigger or maybe its more noticeable now since he's lost weight. Normally, how long does it take for a cyst to either go away or rupture in a betta?


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Also, papadoupolos has been sleeping all day since last night, he's acting VERY lethargic again!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure of the time it takes to actually burst. But it's similar in humans where they can come and go just randomly or they can grow so much that it causes a lot of pain (first hand experience unfortunately) and in which case it should be removed but unfortunately with fish this is extremely hard and most likely an expensive process to go through if you brought him to a fish vet or something.

As I said, the most you can do right now is really just make him comfortable, the Epsom salt will help with that and doing a low regimen of .25-.50 tsp/gal indefinitely. So don't use any of the AQ treatment I had suggested for his fins, just use Stress Coat with the Epsom and that, with the water changes should help his fins.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Thank you so much! I will do that!!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

He seems happier and more active with the low dosage of Epsom salt so I will continue using that. I'm hoping for the best. Thank you for the advice, I really really appreciate it !!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Great! That's fantastic! I'm really happy to hear that ^_^

So if you can change the water every other day, giving the middle day for him to rest. If you can do 100% that would be good, but 50% will be just as good, whatever he responds to best. If he freaks out at the 100%, then just do a smaller amount. This will keep the water clean and start promoting healthy fin growth with the Stress Coat and will also get rid of any toxins and whatever he excretes either form the cyst or just form his body in general


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I think papadoupolos has become more swollen ;((( Do you think he has dropsy?? I've attached more photos


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Is it both sides or just one side? Dropsy would have already killed him by this point, his scales would raise and his entire body would bloat up, not just one side and then he'd be quickly gone so no, it's not Dropsy. which is a good thing!

And looking back now, he doesn't look any more swollen from his first pictures. His fins do look better though so that's a good sign  But there won't be much else you can do for him except keep up the Epsom and water changes for him to be comfortable unless you can find a Vet who can remove it from him but that's going to be super costly and very risky :-/


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

He hides in his cave most of the time or stays at the bottom of the tank. It takes him effort to swim up and he's not excited about food any more although he still will come up to eat. He props himself between the filter and the plant so his mouth can be close to the surface while he's sleeping at night. 

His left side is very slightly swollen but there is no lump like the right side. The scales on his right (where the lump is) haven't pineconed but they're slightly sticking out due to the pressure. 

I did an epsom salt bath for him yesterday. In his bath, he would just lie down on the floor like he was dead and he would only come up for air. I also did a 100% water change and added a low dose of epsom salt. 

I wouldn't want to take chances if there's high risk involved, but how much would a vet approximately cost me? I'm out of ideas and its difficult to see him looking so miserable


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I really have no idea's about how much it will cost you, I know fish vets are really hard to find though but other than that I have no experience with them :-(

If you can, lower the water level so he can get to the surface easier to breathe, and then he could lay on the plants to sleep instead, it might help a bit.

Just continue doing what you're doing. Is it possible you can get some Frozen Bloodworms or Brine Shrimp or something like that? You can sort of make it wiggle and it might entice him to eat more, same with the pellets though. You can move it around with your fingers and he might be like "Oh! That's food! I want it!" and go to eat it, just something to try. It might take a few days for him to really realize though that it's good food.

But keep up with the water changes and the ES small doses to keep it at either .25 or .5 tsp per gal, pick one and then stay at it. I would prefer the .5 for now since it is a little more serious than some constipation. But this will also keep him comfortable enough that it shouldn't hurt too much.

As a super-duper last resort, you can think about euthanizing him. I don't like to suggest it because there's almost always a chance of life as with everything even Dropsy but if you think and are sure that he's suffering way too much, then you can use Clove Oil. That's the most humane way to euthanize him, I'm not sure of the exact dosage but basically it's an anesthetic, like novacaine you get from the dentist. It numbs them and eventually suffocates them but they will never feel it so therefore it might be the easiest thing but you have to set aside a whole hour to do the process. Basically you add little bits at a time kind of like acclimating him and you have to stir the water around so it gets all over and eventually they start to ingest it. But that's just one way to do it.

Again the above is the super-duper-de-duper LAST resort!


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Internal infection...has he been on any antibiotics or just the epsom salt (I don't use epsom salt unless they look dropsy). AQ salt is good for stimulating the slime coat and helping wounds heal...fish loose salt into the water through wounds.

Anyway, I'd try an antibiotic now that the epsom salt hasn't worked. The only problem with this is...is it gram positive or gram negative infection...

Good luck with him...always use antibiotic for the full treatment even if you don't see signs of it working. I'd start with a gram negative first because most infections tend to be gram negative.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

In which case I believe Tetracycline is a broad-spectrum antibiotic for both gram negative and gram positive. You can also combine Maracyn I and Maracyn II for a strong gram negative/positive medication.

I'm not super well versed in all medications yet, perhaps Coppermoon can weigh in more about which ones you should be able to use and whether they can help all cyst's like this or if it really is a cyst now.

Also Maracyn II is the gram negative broad spectrum antibiotic which I think would be good to start off with.

I'm really sorry I didn't even look for other medications before! I get so absorbed with just the salts that I forget many times that there are much stronger things you can treat with! I apologize for not widening my options >.<


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

lilnaugrim you were trying to help. I commend you on that 

I've seen people suggest epsom salt to get rid of internal parasites...all epsom salt does is to dehydrate the fish...that is why I use it if I suspect dropsy (condition not disease).

AQ salt is a preventative...it doesn't cure anything...keeps the slime coat stimulated so nastys can't attach (ich and velvet).

My friend's site (my go to site) http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html has great information on it. I'd be very careful mixing gram positive and gram negative meds (unless it is recommended) because sometimes they cancel each other out.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'll keep that site in mind, thank you Copper!

As for gram positive/negative meds, I've never heard of Maracyn I and Maracyn II canceling each other out at least and have seen it recommended around the internet of course (can't believe everything though, right?) But of course, mixing medications is going to make a stronger solution which can stress fish out as well, so I do know that you should just start off with the one gram negative first; the Maracyn II and see what that does for him and then progress from there. That would be my plan of action at least 

I am wondering though, why would ES just dehydrate the fish? Would it not have the same effect it has one us which would be a laxative. Although yes, laxatives will release too much fluids making one dehydrated I suppose, but even still it should then theoretically reduce swelling and things of the like.

I just did a bit of reading on dehydration and ES and all, and that was one of the dangers of ES even though it's not actually a salt. But wouldn't that happen only at a certain dosage or does it happen if ingested at all?


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

lilnaugrim said:


> I'll keep that site in mind, thank you Copper!
> 
> As for gram positive/negative meds, I've never heard of Maracyn I and Maracyn II canceling each other out at least and have seen it recommended around the internet of course (can't believe everything though, right?) But of course, mixing medications is going to make a stronger solution which can stress fish out as well, so I do know that you should just start off with the one gram negative first; the Maracyn II and see what that does for him and then progress from there. That would be my plan of action at least


**like**



lilnaugrim said:


> I am wondering though, why would ES just dehydrate the fish? Would it not have the same effect it has one us which would be a laxative. Although yes, laxatives will release too much fluids making one dehydrated I suppose, but even still it should then theoretically reduce swelling and things of the like.


As long as the fish isn't dehydrated, then yes the ES should help with constipation. I prefer to starve or feed daphnia or frozen bs...or a pea as last resort. I also feed sprilina(?) algae to grindals or white worms then feed them immediately to the Betta.



lilnaugrim said:


> I just did a bit of reading on dehydration and ES and all, and that was one of the dangers of ES even though it's not actually a salt. But wouldn't that happen only at a certain dosage or does it happen if ingested at all?


It really only helps if it is ingested...we can't just soak in it and get relief. It either has to be drank or used as an enema. I do keep it, but I don't use it very often.

Now you got me to thinking...lol...wondering if ES would work better if pellets were soaked in a solution and then fed to the Betta? LOL


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Coppermoon said:


> As long as the fish isn't dehydrated, then yes the ES should help with constipation. I prefer to starve or feed daphnia or frozen bs...or a pea as last resort. I also feed sprilina(?) algae to grindals or white worms then feed them immediately to the Betta.
> 
> It really only helps if it is ingested...we can't just soak in it and get relief. It either has to be drank or used as an enema. I do keep it, but I don't use it very often.
> 
> Now you got me to thinking...lol...wondering if ES would work better if pellets were soaked in a solution and then fed to the Betta? LOL


Lol glad I got something right then XD

Well, we can soak our hands and feet in it to get relief ;-) that's what it's commonly used for other than ingesting which should only be done upon doctor's orders. But yeah....

I'm wondering too then lol, I mean we can soak Kanaplex into pellets and feed it orally, would it then work the same with other medications that would be more effective if ingested? I mean, it will be ingested eventually since the fish will soak it in but of course orally is much faster and more effective at least when using Kanaplex and antibiotics of the like. I think it would certainly be worth the test!

You know, I have a very constipated boy who has pooped a whole lot of Twice since I've had him the last two months....perhaps I should just give it a try on him to see if it does in fact do anything but I know I should probably just get some frozen daphnia or start farming for mosquito larvae >.<


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

So far, he's only been on epsom salt treatments. Right now the only medications I have on hand is Maracyn 2 and Betta revive. Should I start him on Maracyn 2 or should I buy another antibiotic for him? I found these medicated fish food named Medi-Koi on Amazon, are they effective? http://amzn.to/13s4wv2 

Also, should I replace the Epsom salt with the AQ salt? 

I've never administrated antibiotics to a fish before, so this will be my first time. From what I've read so far, I need to remove the carbon media from his filter first. 

I've ordered a hammock for him, which should arrive on friday so he can sleep close to the surface of the water. Also, I've ordered brine shrimp and daphnia for him, they should be here on Friday.

I can't euthanize him, I just don't have the stomach for that at all so I can't consider it and I really don't want to lose him  

I'm very sorry about asking so many questions! He's my first betta and I'm treading on new territory here and feel a little overwhelmed right now. On the bright side, it's the fourth of July, so I'll have the long weekend to look after him.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

lilnaugrim said:


> Lol glad I got something right then XD
> 
> Well, we can soak our hands and feet in it to get relief ;-) that's what it's commonly used for other than ingesting which should only be done upon doctor's orders. But yeah....
> 
> ...


I soak food with meds ...LOVE freeze dried blood worms for this!!! LOL

Let me know how it works . I also do 100% water changes to make mine poop (course mine are in 32 oz mason jars, so it is much easier to do 100%).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Don't worry Millowsan! Ask all the questions you need!

Yes for most if not all medications you need to remove the carbon, otherwise it will take the meds out of the water which is obviously no good ^_^ You can keep the filter running for aeration and water movement though. I know some medications can make it harder to breathe so covering the top with saranwrap will make it easier for him to breathe because it will make it humid in there.

As for dosing, I believe with the Maracyn's they are powder packets? or tablets, can't remember. Read the directions of the dosing and if something doesn't make sense or you need help breaking it down, ask us and we can help!

And Copper, why would you use freeze-dried BW's (other than they probably soak really well) since BW's usually don't help with constipation? Just merely for the fact that they soak everything up really well? I'll have to try both and see what happens. Yeah, Jarvis is in a 3 gallon so I usually do 80%'s on it twice a week, today is actually water changing day for the smaller tanks and then Saturday is all tanks. I'll have to check on him and do a few experiments! ;-) I'll let you know how they go, perhaps I should make a small log about it?


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Millowsan said:


> So far, he's only been on epsom salt treatments. Right now the only medications I have on hand is Maracyn 2 and Betta revive. Should I start him on Maracyn 2 or should I buy another antibiotic for him? I found these medicated fish food named Medi-Koi on Amazon, are they effective? http://amzn.to/13s4wv2


Start with Maracyn 2...I dissolve mine into 10 teaspoons of warm water. 1 tsp of meds to 1 gallon of water. Use as recommended!!! finish all medications!!!

I've never used the Medi-koi stuff...sry.

Also note that it could be a tumor so this also may not work.



Millowsan said:


> Also, should I replace the Epsom salt with the AQ salt?


I would slowly get him back into clean water. Another good med to keep on hand is Methylene Blue (aka Meth Blue). It is good for helping the fish oxygenate and absorb the meds. 1 to 2 drops per gallon for safe water (conditioned water) or 2 drops per 32 oz for a bath. I prefer to do the tank with the meds.



Millowsan said:


> I've never administrated antibiotics to a fish before, so this will be my first time. From what I've read so far, I need to remove the carbon media from his filter first.


Yes, all carbon needs to be removed. Betta Splended (domestic Betta) do not like water with current. They are bubble nest builders so they prefer still water. Wild/mouthbrooders need current in their tanks.



Millowsan said:


> I've ordered a hammock for him, which should arrive on friday so he can sleep close to the surface of the water. Also, I've ordered brine shrimp and daphnia for him, they should be here on Friday.


Awesome 



Millowsan said:


> I can't euthanize him, I just don't have the stomach for that at all so I can't consider it and I really don't want to lose him
> 
> I'm very sorry about asking so many questions! He's my first betta and I'm treading on new territory here and feel a little overwhelmed right now. On the bright side, it's the fourth of July, so I'll have the long weekend to look after him.


It is hard to euthanize. I've done more then my fair share back in November? December? when I euthanized my entire fishroom because of the mycos. I will forever stress that caution needs to be taken NOT to help create med resistant nastys . Also clean up needs to be treated like this is what you have (you DONT have it...just be sure no nastys live ).

The easiest way I have found (need help in the pharmacy)...Clove Oil/tooth ache medication is the easiest way to go. Glass bowl/jar...about 1/2 full. Soak 1 end of a Q-Tip in the oil and drop it into the water. Once the fish is "asleep" on the bottom, soak both ends of another Q-Tip and drop it in. I cover the container so they don't stress and relax enough that the meds take affect. They get sedated, then you overdose them. I prefer this method.

I do really hope he pulls through though.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

lilnaugrim said:


> Don't worry Millowsan! Ask all the questions you need!
> 
> And Copper, why would you use freeze-dried BW's (other than they probably soak really well) since BW's usually don't help with constipation? Just merely for the fact that they soak everything up really well? I'll have to try both and see what happens. Yeah, Jarvis is in a 3 gallon so I usually do 80%'s on it twice a week, today is actually water changing day for the smaller tanks and then Saturday is all tanks. I'll have to check on him and do a few experiments! ;-) I'll let you know how they go, perhaps I should make a small log about it?


Agreed lilnaugrim!!!

And yes...they absorb very well...any FD foods will work. Those are the easiest for me to obtain.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> Don't worry Millowsan! Ask all the questions you need!
> 
> As for dosing, I believe with the Maracyn's they are powder packets? or tablets, can't remember. Read the directions of the dosing and if something doesn't make sense or you need help breaking it down, ask us and we can help!



Yes the Maracyn 2 are powder packets! 12 of them in a pack. I'll read the packets when I get home and if it doesn't make sense, I'll ask you. THANK YOU!!!! I'm so glad and relieved that I have you and Coppermoon to help me out here!





Coppermoon said:


> Start with Maracyn 2...I dissolve mine into 10 teaspoons of warm water. 1 tsp of meds to 1 gallon of water. Use as recommended!!! finish all medications!!!
> 
> I've never used the Medi-koi stuff...sry.
> 
> ...



I really really hope it's not a tumor! Betta revive has meth blue in it, so I'll add that to his tank.

The water conditioner I'm using is API stress coat but I read somewhere that it doesn't remove the ammonia byproduct that's produced when the chloromines are neutralized so I'm waiting to get Prime on Friday.


*One more question:* Should I use AQ salt with his antibiotics or epsom or no salt??


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Millowsan said:


> Yes the Maracyn 2 are powder packets! 12 of them in a pack. I'll read the packets when I get home and if it doesn't make sense, I'll ask you. THANK YOU!!!! I'm so glad and relieved that I have you and Coppermoon to help me out here!
> 
> I really really hope it's not a tumor! Betta revive has meth blue in it, so I'll add that to his tank.
> 
> ...


Easiest way to prepare the meds is the way I do it. Each pack treats 10g of water...your breaking that down to 10 - 1tsp treatments. Keep un-used meds in the frig. I don't remember how big his tank is (been posting on too many threads today...lol), but if it is a 3g tank, then use 3 tsp of the now liquid med/water in his tank. I haven't used the med in a while, so follow directions (except the dosing because it will tell you to dose a 10g tank)...lol

I'd say no salt for now No AQ salt and no ES.  Meth Blue and M2 and clean water is what I'd do.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I would not combine salts with medications unless you severely have to but otherwise don't do it. It's like combining medications, it creates more stress than is initially needed. So just clean good water will be just fine with the Maracyn II.

I'm really glad that Copper pipped up because I was really losing steam on this one and just running out of idea's so I think Copper is the real hero in this one ;-) I need to get my head out of my butt sometimes XD haha

But in the case of a tumor then you can't do anything for him except make him comfy.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

lilnaugrim said:


> I would not combine salts with medications unless you severely have to but otherwise don't do it. It's like combining medications, it creates more stress than is initially needed. So just clean good water will be just fine with the Maracyn II.
> 
> I'm really glad that Copper pipped up because I was really losing steam on this one and just running out of idea's so I think Copper is the real hero in this one ;-) I need to get my head out of my butt sometimes XD haha
> 
> But in the case of a tumor then you can't do anything for him except make him comfy.


Thank you lil ...but I won't take credit. 

After going through the mycos, I tend to look at a sick fish as a dead fish. ((sorry guys...don't mean to offend anyone))...I look at the worst possible outcome then work backwards


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yes! I completely understand the sick fish=dead fish method and that's fine. I know Mycos is not fun whatsoever!

At least this is a learning experience for all, that's the beauty of forums! I'll keep you updated Copper on the ES soaked food if you like


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey Lilnaugrim and Coppermoon, I wanted to tell you that I did not end up starting papadoupolos's antibiotic medication because when I got back from work, he seemed to be very active and swimming happily. His water still has a low dose of epsom salt.

I tried to feed him brine shrimp but he would not eat it! He hungrily eats his betta pellets though. I've also set up his hammock, just in case he needs that extra support. 

I've closely monitored his behavior over the past three days, and he's still active. So, I wanted advice, should I start the antibiotic treatment or should I leave him, as he is, with his lump? 

Also, the symptoms this person described over here about his betta sounds a lot similar to papa's except for the fact that papa's lump is opaque and not translucent: http://nippyfish.net/2007/04/12/the-many-faces-of-dropsy/


Would really appreciate some expert advice on the matter! Thank you


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I would start the antibiotic while he's feeling good, there's a better chance he'll respond to it when he's stronger in health!

Are you able to move the brine shrimp around with tweezers or something to stimulate movement for him? My Betta's generally go after things that are moving more or less so that might help!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

That's a good tip! I'll use a pair of tweezers to entice him more. I'll start the antibiotics tomorrow -- fingers and toes crossed


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## NickZac (Jun 26, 2013)

I do not think you need to euthanize, but this is a very abnormal bulge. The characteristics of this bulge and timeline are not normal at all…given treatments have already been used, I think you need to be as certain as possible that your next round of treatments are going to be ideal for this condition...and this condition is unusual and isn't easy to diagnose. I would contact Dr. Aukes for advice in treatment and potentially long-term management if this is something chronic rather than infectious… 520.298.7814.

Hikari is great food, your temp is great, your water is great, and if the heater is an Ebo Jager as it appears it is the best heater made, bar none. The conditions your fishy has are ideal…this is NOT environmental and the good environment plus it’s slow speed of progression makes it unusual.

Yesterday's medications were harsh and severely stressed fish...salt caused less stress then. Today's medications are precise, easier to dose, low in toxicity, and very safe and low-stress. Aquarium salt does not heal fish….it stresses fish more than actual medication and if this is bacterial, it will do nothing. I don’t use it for a variety of reasons documented by many fish doctors...the doctor will elaborate if you call him and ask him about salt and freshwater fish. 

You need the widest spectrum antibiotic you can get because what exactly going on is not well known…ideally, you want only one antibiotic that you only do one course of to minimize stress and damage to the biological filter. Using the Maracyn with minocycline is going to be ideal if you only have 1 or 2 because EM is way too narrow spectrum and if this is not without a doubt swim bladder-related, EM is not ideal and this does not seem to be swim bladder due to locomotion issues not really observed. 

However, I am willing to bet $20 that TMP Sulfa is the best treatment (ideally via feed) and is what the doctor will say, possibly in combo with metronidazole depending on the slime coating. When one isn't sure, TMP/SMX is usually best. Maracyn Plus is essentially TMP and General Cure is metro and praz…so the stuff can be found local although it's ridiculously expensive like all of the medications sold in actual stores. TMP/SMX is as wide spectrum as you get and it covers everything including a few difficult bacterial disorders fish are prone to that do not respond well to other antibiotics. It also works fast like a bat out of hell and is easier on the tank.

The pictures make it appear as if there is excessive slime on the other skin…is this correct?


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I don't know if there is excessive slime on the skin, he's my first betta and I'm not an expert on diagnosis. I was using API stress coat to heal his fins. I've only used epsom salt to treat him so far. I don't know if Dr. Aukes can help me since I'm all the way in Michigan. 

I was planning on starting him on Maracyn 2 in the morning. I've never heard of TMP/SMX, where can I buy it online? 

I'm very confused now on what to do next when it comes to treatment...


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## NickZac (Jun 26, 2013)

Stress coat doesn't do a whole lot for fins...it is good for conditioning water but what aloe does for fish is somewhat debatable. The most important aspect is clean water. Fins cannot heal if ammonia is present and fish will struggle to overcome disease even with the perfect medication...which makes a water treatment that neutralizes ammonia and nitrite the best option given it temporarily stops the buildup toxins which are the most common causes of death. The biggest concern beyond clean water is preventing secondary infection. With clean water being #1, use of a lighter wide-spectrum medication as a QT preventive can take care of #2. Nitrofurazone+furan/sulfa+light meth blue mixes are incredibly popular given they provide good bacterial, parasitic, fungal, and some viral protection, and how it only takes a very small dosage for them to work well, meaning less stress. Some fish feel instantly better upon the application of nitrofuracin green, for various reasons that, in sum, makes it easier for a stressed or hurting fish to breath and utilize oxygen. As a general rule, minor-moderate fin/scale damage will heal if the fish is overall healthy, given good water, continues feeding, is kept stress-free, and is kept away from things that could cut them. Many additives such as MelaFix often make things worse rather than better, so always bear in mind that just because something is advertised as 'natural'/'holistic'/'organic'/or other common sham advertising claims, that does NOT mean safer nor does it mean any body of evidence suggests that the additive provides benefits that outweigh drawbacks of dosing. Arsenic is natural...but obviously far from safe or useful. Many of today's medications are so low in toxicity and cause so little stress that using a good medication as a first line treatment makes sense.

The doctor does phone consultations in which you can send him pictures and discuss symptoms...something that has gone this long is something that he will probably have the most experience and best treatment in mind as it is unusual. Since he would be unable to run certain tests like a gram stain, he will likely advise TMP/SMX as it's one of the best antibiotics currently used for fish. He sells TMP/SMX ranging in size from a small jar to 5 gallon buckets and beyond...Maracyn Plus is essentially the same thing, but if you order it in a jar with a scoop rather than powder packets, it will be like 1/10th the price or less. 

TMP/SMX is common and many know it as Bactrim (used on people and pets...many people sell it under various names). If you use TMP/SMX, you will not need to cocktail with other antibiotics because its range is incredibly wide and it is incredibly effective. TMP has not only strong anti-bacterial properties for both gram positive and negative, but it is also active against some fungi, protozoa, mold, and even viruses...this is one reason it is ideal over minocycline given it treats more things and maximizes the chance it will treat any illness. For people, it is used to treat things like MRSA, eColi, and even VRSA, when other antibiotics fail. If fishy has a bacterial infection, chances are TMP/SMX will kill the bacteria (and also help some if it is certain fungal, mold, protozoa, or viral infections).

The doctor's medications are amazing...there are a few good makers but their combination of range of products, abilities to help diagnoses, treatment advisors, fast shipping, cheap pricing, and wide range of quantity had me using them as my primary vendor for meds and advice when I got stuck back when I worked in the industry. Gary and Brian Aukes (both doctors) have really pioneered a lot of the field by bringing high quality pharma-grade meds to the market for availability for anyone from a professional breeder to a hobbyist with one fish, and have each been a massive component to modernize treatment models by moving away from older, harsher, and more toxic treatments to the newer, better tolerated, far less toxic, and more effective medications. They were also one of the first to show factual evidence that the use of salt for freshwater fish beyond only the shortest of durations has the potential to be incredibly harmful as well as how *salt really doesn't work*. Medium- and long-term usage of salt can lead to physical changes incorrectly diagnosed as dropsy, septicemia, and even fish TB due to sometimes severe and permanent internal organ damage partly due to osmoregulation being completely screwed up by the salt. Kind of like if a person gets a staph infection, drinking 5 liters of sea water is not going to kill the bacteria, but it will harm the person. All those websites that say to use salt are wrong...salt kills freshwater fish and the medications that do what many people (incorrectly) believe salt can do are far, far, far, far, far more safer than salt. Between poor effectiveness and potentially severe long-term health consequences, in a world with safe and effective medications, there is no reason for its usage as a first line treatment whatsoever.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products5.html


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I tried calling the doctor but no one answered. Do you know what their business hours are? I've sent them an email. 

I'm even more worried about papadoupolos now, I really love him and can't imagine losing him.


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## NickZac (Jun 26, 2013)

They will not be in until monday morning, IIRC. They do check email intermittently IIRC. Provided Papadoupolos has had this for a while and has not gotten markedly worse, IMHO if you wait a day to treat or to change anything such as current treatment to be sure you have the right thing, that is better than starting a new treatment only to find it is not the best treatment and have to stop, delay to remove the old treatment, and then start up with another.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Hello, I called that number and they said it sounds like my betta has parasites. The lady who answered my phone said, I should use Praziquantel. I asked her if I could send her photos and she said she will take a look at them in the next few days. 

She didn't think it was a bacterial infection.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I need advice, papa has a hole in the middle of his fin and it's getting bigger. 

I don't know what to do  He's on maracyn 2. He's been more bloated than usual and I'm afraid some of his scales are slightly raised on both sides (not horizontally, more like 40 degree angles). I've seen lots of photos of fish with dropsy and their swelling is usually underneath the body, but papa's swelling is on his sides, and his left has a lump so it's not normal. 


He stays on top of the water with his mouth close to the surface most of the time (even before the antibiotics). He still eats like a pig (even when I soak his pellets in antibiotics) and greets me when I come to the tank.


I've checked for ammonia etc, and they're all zero and the pH level is 7.6 ---

I use prime as my water conditioner but I also added stress coat once I saw the hole yesterday. But it's only become bigger today  

I feel like maybe I should go to the pet store and use maracyn plus since it's broad spectrum instead of maracyn 2. I also have tetra's anti parasite medication on hand. 


Any advice would be really appreciated.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm sorry, I feel that I am of no use at this point :-(

Hopefully Copper or Nick can chime in to help


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

How long has he been on M2?. It migjt be time to start M and finish off M2. Sorry, I'm on my phone.

Add.1 tsp.AQ salt per 1 US gallon of treated water to his water (I use canning salt).

Thus will help with healing his fins. Honestly at this point, I'd be preparing for the worst. Continue with the treatment though!!! Once you finish, if he isn't better, then I'm at a loss.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'd give him a day or so of rest from the Maracyn II until you get the Maracyn I and then dose with that. I wouldn't do the salt right now, it'd be way too stressful on him and potentially harmful. Definitely keep with daily 100%'s or close to it for now to hopefully keep any further infection out and keep him a little more clean. :-(


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hm, why did I not read this thread until today? Anyway.....

I've only read the last two pages of the thread, so if I'm missing anything, let me know.

Initially, he developed a lump on his side. The vet's office felt it's parasitical, and suggested Praziquantel.

Did you ever give him this? If not, I recommend API General Cure. It contains both Praziquantel and Metronidazole, and will treat a lot of parasite issues. I believe that Tetra Parasite Guard has these same ingredients, so if that's what you have, it would be fine to use.

It sounds like you're currently giving him Maracyn 2. This contains Minocycline, which is a antibiotic that targets gram negative bacteria. However, it's been around a long time, so some bacteria are resistant to it. It also only treats gram negative bacterial infections - not parasites.

It sounds like you're thinking about switching to one of the other Maracyns in order to treat the hole in his fin. (I really wish Mardel would vary the names more. It's confusing to have Maracyn, Maracyn 2, and Maracyn Plus. They're all very different meds.) Here's my take on it:

Maracyn contains erythromycin. This is an antibiotic that targets gram positive bacteria. There ARE some aquatic illnesses caused by gram positive bacteria, but the majority are gram negative. This means erythromycin won't be effective on the majority of aquatic bacterial infections. So I would not use this.

Maracyn Plus contains Sulfadimidine and Trimethoprin. This would be, IMO, a much better choice, in terms of its antibiotic action. These are sulfa drugs which target a wide range of bacteria.

If you can't get Marcyn Plus, look for API Triple Sulfa. Triple Sulfa three similar sulfa antibiotics: Sulfathiazole, Sulfamethazine, and Sulfacetamide.

Note: Do NOT use Maracyn Plus or Triple Sulfa if you are allergic to sulfa drugs. If that's the case, you can use one of the furan meds (API Furan 2, Jungle Fungus Clear, or Bifuran.)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah I had suggested General Cure in a PM but I still don't see how this could be parasitic in nature personally. Although now to think about it, it's not always just the stomach area that can be effect, would that be correct in my assumption?

Sorry LittleBlue, I had thought I PM'd you about this one, I guess not!


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Happily, I don't know a lot about fish parasites! That said, I suspect the symptoms/bumps depend on the specific parasite, and the organ it has invaded. For example, dog heartworms cause an enlarged heart. And a parasite that lives in the intestines can cause result in an enlarged abdomen.

I was just going by what the vet's office told the OP. They felt is was a parasite, so I suggested API General Cure.

If you don't feel this is an internal parasite, then another option is Kanaplex (Kanamycin). This is a great broad spectrum antibiotic, which treats both internal and external bacterial diseases.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That makes a heck of a lot more sense now, I was just being ignorant again since I was sure that it was a larger cyst or something but that kind of parasites do make sense.

I agree that General Cure might be a better way to go then, since you've explained about the Maracyn's might not work now.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I cleaned out his gravel yesterday and when I inspected the water/waste I vacuumed out I noted a really tiny white insect which had little legs all over the body!!! It's really small and normally I would have missed it if I wasn't inspecting closely. 

Is this a parasite/worm? Now I'm sure it's parasitic in nature. 

Tomorrow is his last day of maracyn 2. I don't know if should start him on his antiparasite med today or wait until I'm done with his antibiotics?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

it might be some type of planaria or along those lines. Usually they come about when there's leftover food or over feeding is involved. I would think that when parasites came out they'd be dead or almost there but I could be wrong on that.

I don't know if there will be any good or bad sides to stopping the antibiotics. I know that if they were needed then yes, stopping early would be bad but since it's not doing him any good I don't see why it would hurt to stop him, give him a day and start to anti-parasite medications. That's just my take on it at least


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

The insect/worm was dead. I don't know if it was in the substrate or he pooped it out. I don't think the antibiotics are making a difference, so I will definitely start him on the anti-parasite med after a day of rest like you said.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, yeah I'm not certain about the worm thing. Usually even if they poop out parasites, it's still in a sort of solid or digested form like the white stringy poop that you see for regular internal stomach parasites you know? But either way, I guess it could happen!


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

You can start using an antiparasitical medication like API General Cure without waiting.


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## Miskris33 (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm going through the same thing with my Carrot  his lump is huge, it looks near to bursting. Everything I read up until this thread was to use Epsom salts (which it looks ad it i havent used a strong enough dosage) and to just keep the water clean and warm. i was so confused about the bacterial medications, some recommending, some not. and of course couldnt find the in my pet stores. if a medication would work I'd definitely order online. It's so sad my Carrot is still swimming though a good bit less and still eating very very well! It just looks like a cyst about to burst. In going to keep reading, hopefully understand and find a solution or other things to try ;( sorry we're both going through this!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm sorry that you're going through this as well. I gave him the antibiotic Maracyn 2 but it did not affect him. I have started him on anti parasite medication and I am waiting to see how he does - I will definitely give updates on his health. He's still eating and he's swimming but he isn't as active as before.

Can you share photos of Carrot? 

When I used epsom salt, he would become a lot more active. I think if the parasite medication does not work then I will just use epsom salts, which seem to make him happier. 

Everyone on this forum has been really helpful and I don't think papadoupolos would have made it this far without their advice. I'm still hoping for the best.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey everyone, 

it's been a while since I've posted about papadoupolos. He's on the second week of his antiparasite medication. He still has the lump but he's still eating and swimming. 

He always greets me at the tank. His fins have become more ragged and so I'm using API stress coat. Otherwise, he seems happy and healthy.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hi there Millo! I'm sorry, I meant to check in but forgot over time >.< I'm glad to hear he's still alive and feeling good! Has anything changed about the lump? Gotten bigger/smaller? Changed places or something? I'm glad he seems to be healthy though, that's always good to hear!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

I'll try to take some photos and show you. I really can't say for sure because I think I've just become too used to seeing him like this. Also, I've reduced his tanks water temp. from 85 to 80 F and he's more active in the lower temp.

Can we rule out dropsy at this point? it's been 6 weeks since I first saw the lump


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh yeah, that's totally not dropsy. Dropsy is more in the stomach area, his lump is behind the stomach where I think more of the intestinal area is. So anyway, not Dropsy and I don't know if it would be tumor related but since you called the people there and they believed it was parasitic, I think I'm staying with parasites. However if it's still not working and the ES made him feel better then maybe it is just a tumor. I honestly wouldn't know the difference!


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey lilnaugrim, I know I haven't responded in a while it's because I was moving houses. I wanted to update you on papadoupolos. I took him to the pet store because he was more bloated and the fish expert told me that he has dropsy. He said that if I described his behavior over the phone, he would have never guessed papa had dropsy because he was acting normal. But his bulge/bloat shows he has dropsy. He ran a water test and discovered trace amounts of ammonia. 

I have old pipes at my new house so I'm using spring water and he said it would be okay to use tap water ---but I don't trust the tap water in the house. 

He prescribed neomycin, bettafix, stability and water conditioner (I use prime and API stress coat) with daily 25% water changes for the next 7 days. Also told me to feed him 3 pellets (which have neomycin mixed in them). 

His bulge has become more translucent so I know theres a lot of water retention. I'm going to add epsom salt today 1 teaspoon per gallon --hopefully that will relieve his pressure.

Papa has been like this for 4 months but he is getting more bloated now and he might be nearing his end. But I'm still hoping he gets better.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If he had Dropsy he should have been dead a long time ago, excuse my forwardness. I do think that it is a tumor now, which either way it's not going to get better unfortunately :-( Tumor's because they bulge, will still cause the scales around to pinecone but the whole fish won't pinecone. If it's Dropsy, you'll see the whole fish pinecone, not just one area of him. So try looking for that to see what happens.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

lilnaugrim said:


> If he had Dropsy he should have been dead a long time ago, excuse my forwardness. I do think that it is a tumor now, which either way it's not going to get better unfortunately :-( Tumor's because they bulge, will still cause the scales around to pinecone but the whole fish won't pinecone. If it's Dropsy, you'll see the whole fish pinecone, not just one area of him. So try looking for that to see what happens.


 
He hasn't pineconed yet. 1-2 scales are raised but not the pineconing I've seen with dropsy (in videos/photos). And he's bloated on one side --which has discoloration i.e. it's more pale than the rest of his body. I think you're right, he's been like this for four months and if it was real dropsy then he would have died by now. Maybe the tumor is putting pressure on his internal organs  

His water tested for trace amounts of ammonia so I'm trying to keep that to 0. 

I'm so sad. He still acts normal, bites my finger, swims around, begs for food. I'm praying for a miracle ;(


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah for sure the tumor is pressing against his organ, most likely his swim bladder and stuff around it. 

You can treat him all you want, I wouldn't use any AQ salt of course but you can continue to keep him in Epsom salt to at least reduce any discomfort he might be feeling. But otherwise there won't be much that you can do, but feel free to continue with the neomycin if you desire to. It may help so you never know until you try.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks lilnaugrim, I'll continue with the epsom salt. I just dread waking up in the morning or coming back home to find him dead in his tank. 

Have you ever lost a betta?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I've lost many over the last year that I've been keeping. The first three were newbish mistakes made by me but they were learning experiences and still are. In fact just last night I came home to one half eaten girl and another who jumped from the tank and must have been there for a few day's. Right now all my fish are infected and I may or may not have to euthanize them all if I do choose to do so. So yes, I've lost a Betta or two...but it doesn't stop me. Yes it's sad and I do miss them but terrible things happen and you just have to look at the positive sides of things. It may take a while to do so, but it will eventually happen 

I don't know if my words help any but, that's how I think of it at least. Then, if they do pass I know they are no longer suffering and I gave them the best care that I could and learned some things on the way! I wouldn't know half of what I know now if I never tried to at least help my fish, and I'm sure you've learned a bit from this experience as well and now in the future, if things come up you'll know what to do and who to ask!


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I am the same way lilnaugrim .
I trained myself to the point when i just think its a circle of life . Btw betta don't feel pain like we do or even like the other animal does. 
Any animal can get sick, we can get sick. I had my dog died . It took me 3 month to rescued another one. We can't let kill us with the grief and loss because it not good for us, and it will withhold us from the rescuing another life. We do our best to help them , give them life and care its the best we can do. I have my 4 years old betta who is dying right now and sorry i can't kill myself with the grief , i don't even have time. I am ready to buy another betta when he will pass . I bought about 30 bettas over the time of 7 years . I used to rescue bettas from the store and quarantine them for a few or 4 wks before give them to the owner . So i had bettas die on me too.
If you will rescue another one you need to disinfect the tank and everything in the tank. Lets us know if you need instructions on the disinfection.

I also like to say if you buy a betta keep it in the tank without the gravel and decor for a few wks to make sure he is healthy. Its very easy to disinfect the tank but not easy to disinfect the gravel. And if you ever buy 2 bettas never SHARE ANYTHING between them in case one get sick. And its easy to do when you have 2 bettas , but not easy when you have many bettas.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

So the vet said its dropsy. The guy also said he can euthanize papadoupolos for me by putting him in a bag full of water and then freezing him. I said no. Papa has pine-coned and his breathing is labored and he's breathing more rapidly. 

I've put epsom salt and a low dosage of betta-revive. I plan to continue him on neomycin for another 3 days (if he makes it that far). 

He's still eating. It's very difficult to see him like this. It's also my birthday this weekend and I don't feel like celebrating any more. Thank you so much for all the support you've given me. Papa has put up a strong fight for the past 5 months and it would not have been possible without your help.

Do you have any other suggestions as to how I can make him more comfortable?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I hear you :-( I have to pretty much euthanize all my fish because I've gotten a Mycobacteria outbreak which there is absolutely no cure for and happened at my birthday last week as well. I did the same thing pretty much, every time I found something out new and just hurt more I'd go "Well...happy birthday to me..." kind of like Eeyore 

I still can't believe honestly that he's made it this far and I think you've been doing something right for him honestly. The ES is most likely relieving most of his pain if he is experiencing any. Of course we can't be certain since fish don't experience pain like we do, but it helps us cope with it in a way. So I think just keep doing what you've been doing.

You'll know what the time is up, when he stops putting up a fight, you can always feel it and see it. My suggestions to you though, when the time does come don't bury him in the ground or anything. There are two things you can do; put him in a baggie and into the garbage or burn him, sorry to be talking about this now but I just needed you to know. If he's sick with something else in him, not just an organ failure, there's a possibility that you can infect the wildlife as well by giving him the River "burial" or flushing, bury in the ground, toss in a pond and etc. So just remember that, don't want to hurt the wildlife either :-( Again, sorry to be going on on a gloomy note.

And just a note about the back full of water, actually you don't want to do that that way. What you'd want to do (again, I apologize for continuing) is get a baggie, half full or around that of water, stick it into the freeze until it's icy, not iced over but just very cold water and then drop him in. It's instant and humane, he won't feel it and he's not sitting in a freezer all night waiting to die >.< Sorry.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I had 2 bettas died from dropsy. One was 2 .3 years old and another one actually died last friday , he was 4 years old. Both of them ate almost to the last day. And the 4 years old had those symptoms for more than 2 wks. I didn't want to euthanize because looks like he didn't suffer too much since he always tried to eat, its just last 2 days he swim up to great me and eat but he missed the food and went right back to the bottom. And when i get up next morning he was dead. Sorry for you fish.
The reason i am writing is to say i am sorry for your betta, but i don't want you to get discourage from getting another one though. Basically we give them love and care that they will never get if they left in the stores.


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## Millowsan (Jun 19, 2013)

Papadopoulos passed away on October 4th in the afternoon. He was eating but his breathing was very labored and he wouldn’t move his little fins as much anymore. He always stayed near the surface of the water. His color was paler than usual ;( 

I was tempted to dissect his body to find out what exactly went wrong, but I couldn’t do that to him. I strongly suspect it’s because of the on-campus water he was exposed to for a week (I got that water tested 2 weeks ago and the fish expert was surprised at how hard the water was). When I returned from vacation and took him from my friend who lived on campus, he had that bump a few days later. 

He put up an amazing fight and he was so merry until the last 10 days. 

I was very upset and I still am every time I think of him. 

Can I get instructions on how to disinfect his tank? He has a plant, a cave, gravel, pebbles, a leaf bed, a filter and a water heater. 

Thank you so much for your help, I really believe the reason he made it this far is because of the advice I received on this forum.

I know I will keep another betta in the future but I will make sure to test the water to make sure it’s a safe environment. 

RIP, Papadopoulos 2012-2013.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry for you loss, you did everything you could. Not sure how long he was with you but he was loved and happy, more than he would get in the store.
I would not disinfect the gravel though. Unless someone did it before and can tell you how to do it.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=2036738

Let us know if you get another betta.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can use the same bleach solution or whatever for the gravel, I did it before and am using it in my 10 gallon again with no issues  I had it soaking for approx. 8 hours in the 1 parts Bleach to 19 parts water in the tank and then rinsed everything out with extremely hot tap water until there was no smell and then soaked again but used 4-5 times the normal amount of conditioner. So if it takes 1ml per 10 gallons of conditioner, I used 5ml's for that 10 gallons  And then let it lay out to dry on paper towel. Make sure it's completely dried over a few days and then you're good to go!

Sorry about Papa though :-( I'm glad he was able to live on though, you did all you could, that's for sure!


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