# Koi HMPK x Cellophane VT?



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Hey! So I just won two amazing Koi HMPK on AB... and you know I can't let genes like this go to waster. But, I'm struggling to find a complimentary female... so what would I get if I crossed either of these two with my Cellophane VT? I'm currently taking a poll and one person said they want Orange Koi VTs, and the other person said Orange Koi EEHMPK. I know I won't get EE from this pairing, but my main goal here is Orange Koi HMPK with improved finnage.


----------



## RickyTan (Jan 26, 2017)

if your goal is orange koi hmpk, crossing to VT is getting further away from your goal. I recommend you keep looking for non red kois or nr2 gene fish.


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Ah.

See, at least one person wants Orange Koi VT.... and if still have the original male to breed to HMPK. I'm thinking my first goal is going to be Orange Koi VT, then later (or possibly even at the same time) I can use the original males to breed Koi EEHMPK.

ETA: also, except for the dorsal (and possibly cadual) I feel like she could improve the form, but idk. I'm not an expereinced breeder, so I'll take your word for it.


----------



## RickyTan (Jan 26, 2017)

Are you breeding fish for you or for other people? The problem is that if you want to make VT Kois it will take many generations if you are starting with koi x vt because of the necessary ray reductions from the delta tails from the resulting spawn and how partial dominant koi/marble genetics are, meaning you will have to cross the resulting fry back to the VT female resulting in an even less chance of koi/marbles. EE is a little quicker, but it will take a few generations as well due to how recessive EE trait is.


----------



## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@ThatFishTho

Crossing to veils is more likely to get you traditional pks with long anals. (short fins> long fins. 2 Ray branching> more ray branching, etc) I am going to be breeding a vt and hmpk myself since I'm breeding FOR that form, but that form wouldn't help you get any VTs or HMPKs until at least the second gen with a sibling cross. :/

As for EE...the EE trait often begins showing it'self in the Gen 1. So THAT'S possible! Maybe look for a yellow EE female...? The "Koi" gene is really just the marble gene, and since marble is pretty dominent, only one parent needs to be koi.^^

Females who Might work:
AquaBid.com - Item # fwbettashm1508601614 - DB108 (Female) - SunShine Dumbo By Thanont - Ends: Sat Oct 21 2017 - 11:00:14 AM CDT
AquaBid.com - Item # fwbettashmp1508689571 - HMPK Dumbo Baby Female - Ends: Sun Oct 22 2017 - 11:26:11 AM CDT
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIVE-BETTA-FISH-IMPORT-FEMALE-LONG-FINNED-DUMBO-/302412242894?
hash=item46692c9fce:g:nHkAAOSwP0ZZjdGc

Sadly, most yellow Dumbos I've found have been MALE. X'D


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Hah, no more importing for me. Getting these two to my house is a whopping $90! That's why I was trying to use one of my females. I also have a dark body Chocolate ORange VT with similar form, and a ORange Cambodian CT, but both have traits I don't want. If I crossed to the cellophane to get a Orange Koi female with the best form, then crossed back to the male, would that work to get slightly better form? Or would you go straight for the EEHMPK?

I'd like to try to breed both for experience and other people.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I was the one who said koi VT lol. But nah, you breed what you want.


I have a orange-ish small koi PK from my PetCo I could grab for you. She's 13 total (tax included) and $10 shipping if you wanted her. She's sister to the female I bought on my journal.


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

@lilnaugrim It depends on her form and color.... For example, my PetCo sometimes sells Yellow Koi PKs, but they usually have crappy form and more cellophane than yellow or black. I like lots of orange/yellow with minimal white and black (as seen in my new boys ) but I could work with it.

(Also, I was secretly hoping someone would say ORange Koi VT  I love VTs and Orange Koi + VT = LOVE!)


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If you look at my girl on my journal, she was similar but had a better dorsal fin and some lovely wild spots. I think I still have pictures of her but will have to upload them after work since I have such poor service here. But she's more orange than my girl is, decent spread of black and cellophane. The orange will take over and then black take over that eventually as most koi's end up being. So you can't exactly judge it by the color that way, only by their base color; yellow, red, orange, etc.


You could still do the VT's, it will just take a few generations is all. I would absolutely love to see that though ^_^ I think they'd look amazing.


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I honestly didn't look at form on her because I wasn't looking for that but this is what she looks like


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

She's cute, but not quite what I am looking for. With Kois, I like them to be the solid base color with patches of cellophane.


----------



## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

@ThatFishThough I hear ya! Those transhipping fees are murder. X'D

Ok, so, try both VT females, one to each koi boi, that way you have a backup pair if the first goes badly. Take two siblings from that spawn, and you should get VTs in the gen 3, and traditional plakats. Just continue with VTs from there. If it's really what you want to breed, then go for it!^^


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm having a hard time deciding between the two girls. Tora would probably add either brown or red (which I really don't want) but has better ventrals, yet Yurei is marbling a bit on her head, and has a purple iris sheen... which I also don't want. Tora is more Orange but I feel like I would lose some of the Koi patterns.


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Also, I just got confirmation from both seller and transhipper! Koo doesn't get his next shipment till the 30th, so they should be here just after Halloween!!!


----------



## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The thing about kois is, the cellophane part doesn't last long. No koi is stable, it's very rare that it happens. So that girl I showed you will end up just like your boys in a few months.

If you breed two kois, you don't get 100% koi, you actually mostly get Cambodians and some cellophane and a few that are actually the koi coloration. Those Cambodians and cellos may marble out in the future but that's what they're going to be for the first couple months.

Not trying to talk you into that girl, just letting you know how the genetics work on a basic level ^_^

I would breed the first girl, much less irid. On dark bodied betta, there is higher chance irids are going to make their way in there. It may not be a huge problem if you like koi with lots of blue patches that eventually turn the whole fish blue lol. It won't 100% happen but it's more likely if you breed Tora.


----------



## angeliza (Sep 5, 2015)

Personally, I'd go for Tora.
You're gonna get 50% with the darker bodies, but chocolates (In her case, dark-bodied orange) like her are in the non-iri category, so you should have a smaller chance of getting blue etc in there. Many cellos come from marble lines, and most of them marble out...if she's starting to turn blue, chances are, girl's gonna be blue, (Daba dee dada die).

Just my two cents tho. I have zip experience in breeding...I just read a lot of gunk. X'D
Lilnaugrim's got more experience, so it's probably best to trust them.^^


----------



## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Ah, but Yurei is actually turning red with blue/purple irid... I'll grab you an updated pic. It's not very noticeable.


----------

