# My male betta is still having eye issues.. finally got good pictures.



## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi everyone.

I've been dealing with a case of cloudy eye with my male HMPK for close to a month now. There was a point about a week ago where it was quite swollen.. but has since improved. I've tried aquarium salt treatments... epson salt treatments and daily water changes... It has gotten slightly better but he still doesn't seem to be at 100%. 

He was MUCH worse recently... but he has never lost his appetite... just a bit of energy. 

He lives alone in a planted 5 gallon tank that has been set up since 8/12. I upgraded him from a 2.5 gallon in August and had him in a 2.5 gallon prior (I got him in 1/2012). 
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-5-10
pH ~7

Diet- frozen food (brine shrimp, blood worms, etc) NLS betta pellets

I do water changes every week... normally.. have been doing them more often recently due to the eye issue. 

Until yesterday his tank was VERY heavily planted and didn't leave much room for swimming really... I had a massive anubias plant on driftwood in there and he spent much of his time hiding in there and I would only see him when I fed him at night. 

Yesterday I decided to move the anubias monstrosity to my 29G planted tank and did some re-arranging. Now he has PLENTY of room to swim around and has been doing so today.. at least from what I've seen so far. 

His one eye is still a milky color and is slightly larger than his healthy eye. I can see it moving like a normal eye, but it still appears to surrounded by fluid. I recently got a DSLR and have been able to FINALLY take some pictures of his eye.. which was very difficult to do with my old camera/his old tank set up. 

Anyone have any thoughts? I did use flash for all of these, but you can see which eye I'm concerned about. 

It's the farther away eye in this shot. 









You can really see how one eye is white-ish in this one










This is the bad eye

















































Blurry, but shows how the bad eye is enlarged









This is his good eye


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

I would keep up with the Espom salt treatments and be sure to dissolve the salt in some warm water before adding it to the tank. I told another member about this since she has a fish with eye problems also she should be able to help soon.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

Hello..Markham..thats me..and yup..my Sapphire in treatment as we speak..epsom salt and daily water changes and consistant heat ..could be parasites..and if yu see lil white stringy things comin out of his eye..that is what yu are dealing with..but my fishy is doin betrr.and he is been in treatment for 3 days..so keep doing epsom and water changes..


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

My Sapphire..has had this issue off an on for 3 mons..and just recently did I see the parasites..it was scary..also if yu have some IAL use that..cook sime leaves..make a tea..and strain..and use with yur salt..and Stress coat..it will pull those buggies right out..Indian Almond leaves..


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Parasites.... hmmm now there's a route I haven't gone. I do have praziquel which is a mild anti-parasitic... I will do the epson salt with daily changes. I keep my heat at around 81F constantly. 

I had used epson salt for over a week in the past and didn't see any improvement, are you using a higher dosage? 

Have you tried any high salt concentration dips? I've read that those can help remove parasites, but that aquarium salt is better for that sort of thing.

I've had him since January of this year and this eye issue didn't come about until October of this year... could the worms lie dormant for that long?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you've used epsom salt for over a week with no help I would switch meds, but that's up to you. How much are you using? If you're worried about parasites, what does his poo look like? I see no signs of parasites on him myself. It's not really swollen either. It just looks infected.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> If you've used epsom salt for over a week with no help I would switch meds, but that's up to you. How much are you using and how long has his eye been like this? If you're worried about parasites, what does his poo look like? I see no signs of parasites on him myself. It's not really swollen either. It just looks infected.



I was doing about 2tsp/gallon. His eye has been like this since October. I'm going out to petsmart later today and I will pick up meds, I'll probably keep him in a tupperware and float him in my 29G for heat and do daily water changes because I don't want to kill my live plants of filtration bacteria. 

What meds would you recommend? Should I get Tetracycline or Clinda? I know that tetra is a better broad spectrum antibiotic, at least in humans. (I'm a clincal microbiologist)


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Markham, it looks like his cloudy eye could be caused by any number of things. If he injured his eye and got a bacterial infection or if he has some external parasites that are bothering him. Believe it or not, there are microscopic flukes that will attack the eyeballs. 

The medication you want to use is actually API Erythromycin. For an infection like this, a daily 10 minute bath in a double dose solution is your most effective and safest route. If you have a hospital tank, you will definitely want to use that for any medication, as most plants do not tolerate medications.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Markham, it looks like his cloudy eye could be caused by any number of things. If he injured his eye and got a bacterial infection or if he has some external parasites that are bothering him. Believe it or not, there are microscopic flukes that will attack the eyeballs.
> 
> The medication you want to use is actually API Erythromycin. For an infection like this, a daily 10 minute bath in a double dose solution is your most effective and safest route. If you have a hospital tank, you will definitely want to use that for any medication, as most plants do not tolerate medications.


This sounds perfect! Thank you! I'll go out and get some right now. How many days should I do this for? I'll use a medium KK for a dosing tank.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I would do this for maybe 5 days. If it doesn't improve, then another 3 days after that.

Good luck! He looks pretty healthy otherwise so fortunately it's a localized infection of whatever. In this case, I do tend to think it's bacterial because I think external parasites would probably go after all of his body, not just his eyes.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Erythromycin is a good med, but if you can find Kanaplex (Kanamycin) I'd go for that instead. Less resistant bacterial strains and generally more effective, but harder to find because it's by Seachem which isn't distributed everywhere.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> Erythromycin is a good med, but if you can find Kanaplex (Kanamycin) I'd go for that instead. Less resistant bacterial strains and generally more effective, but harder to find because it's by Seachem which isn't distributed everywhere.




I've already started the Erythro and if this doesn't work I'll give him a rest, and order Kanomycin online


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Here is why I recommended erythromycin over Kanaplex this time:

"When used for many eye infections (especially when only one or a small percentage of fish are effected), use of Erythromycin at double dose in a medicated fish bath is often an effective and definitely safe method of use." --american aquarium products

That website is a resource whose experience and research in medications I really respect.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

It's been 3 days and I haven't seen any sort of improvement. How long will it take to notice a change?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Could be several days. If he will tolerate it, you can try giving him the baths twice a day. If he shows any signs of distress, remove him immediately though. If after another 3 days there is no sign of improvement, we'll switch to a different med or try leaving him in a regular dosage of erythromycin instead of the baths.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Awesome, can I reuse the bath water?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Offhand, I'd say yes but for the best results and ultimate sterility, I'd say no. I don't think it will do much harm if you do reuse it, though.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Offhand, I'd say yes but for the best results and ultimate sterility, I'd say no. I don't think it will do much harm if you do reuse it, though.


Okay I figured. I haven't reused any yet and won't start.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Still no improvement, even with baths twice daily. I got some new pictures. His eye is still cloudy and slightly enlarged. And overall, he just doesn't look good. It's hard to explain.. his overall demeanor just looks sickly. He isn't as vibrant as he used to be, and does lie on the bottom quite a bit. 
I got some pictures tonight, some of them look warped because he was in bottom front corner of the mini-bow. Some are out of focus and some have water spots... I should have cleaned before getting camera happy... but any thoughts? Maybe it's something more serious? 
The god news is that he does tolerate the baths very well so he's a little trooper. 










Slightly distorted by it being by the bow of the tank, but this is what he does most of the day.. 




































Blurry, but shows the two eyes in one shot









His good side


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hmm. I can see a little of the color fading.  

Is he still eating? He looks a bit skinny. I wonder if we should try Seachem ParaGuard to target any external or internal parasite issues. We can combine this with Seachem Kanaplex at a ratio of 2 parts ParaGuard to 1 part Kanaplex and treat with this as a constant soak for 5 days in a hospital tank. The Kanaplex with target bacterial infections; my concern is if this is indeed a parasitic problem causing the cloudy eye, then he may have developed a secondary bacterial infection as well that is causing the general listlessness.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

He's been eating like a champ! He will swim to the top when I open the lid because he knows that means food.

I have prazipro on hand, which I know from experience is safe for plants and the beneficial bacteria in the tank so I wouldn't need a hospital set up just yet. It's pretty mild and I had to use it in my main tank (planted with snails) for some freak external worm infection on my cory cat fish and it worked like a charm. It's been about 2 months and it's totally gone! Either that or it went away on it's own.. my cory cats have even spawned since.. crazy right?! (even though it's marketed for internal worms) 

Should I try a run of that for 5 days first? I also have coppersafe on hand and could do a hospital tank run with that... but that's pretty harsh I think, I've never really used it but have it as a back up sort of deal. I can run out this weekend or order the kanaplex/paraguard as well. 
I work as a clinical microbiologist, specifically with antibiotic resistance.. I don't like seeing the downsides of my work play out in my fish tank... because there's no way I can test it, and I really want to help this fish... He's almost a year old, well that's how long I've had him. 

What I really don't understand is where this all came from!


Also, isn't paraguard a tablet? How would I dose that/manage water changes during the 5 day soak?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

For a comparison shot, this is what he looked like on 9/4/12


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, PraziPro will work as well. Prazi does tend to target mostly internal but in this case it might be enough to clear up the causes of his color loss and listlessness. It may work on the cloudy eye but for that we might need a medication that targets external parasites. Something with acriflavine would probably work.

I would probably recommend giving the PraziPro a try first because it is a good med and it means you won't have to spend any more money. 

Coppersafe . . . hmm. If the cause of his cloudy eye _is_ indeed external parasites then Coppersafe would work but as you mentioned, it's pretty strong stuff and I don't especially like to use it if less harsh meds will work. 

In order to find out if the cause of his cloudy eye is external parasites or bacterial, a skin/mucous sample would have to be taken and viewed under a microscope. Since you're a clinical microbiologist, that part would probably be easy. The hard part would be identifying what you see. You might be able to google something like "fish skin flukes magnified" and see if you can get an image for comparison. :/ 

Poor little guy.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Prazipro mostly works on external parasites since it's in the water and anything in the water works external.. it's not a completely internal med because it's not absorbed through the gills but some say it's more readily absorbed than others. Yes, the bottle says it works internal but the truth is it mostly relies on what water is swallowed by the fish to go internal, so while it can work it's actually not the most effective internal treatment, but it is the only med for parasites that seems to have potential to work internally just by putting it in the water. It won't treat bacterial infections at all, just parasite.

Also it's super common to need to extend prazi beyond the bottle round time. 2 week is pretty much minimum and you can use it up to a month.. I'd treat a week past when he seems to be cleared because people who tend to stop this med at first clearup tend to see reinfections. It works and it's more gentle than a lot of antiparasite meds but it takes a lot of patience with it.

Erythromyacin is only a gram negative antibiotic so if that eye was caused by a gram positive infection it wouldn't have touched it and they usually are.. so the Kanaplex would maybe have worked over it. That was my reasoning.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I don't know how'd I'd get a sample without hurting him even more. I do have a few close friends in the parasitology lab who have helped me out with gecko poop in the past, on the down low of course haha. 

I'll try the prazi, money really isn't an issue if it gets him healthy, but I'm a fan of using less harsh drugs first! 

I already did a 50% water change earlier today, and I'm getting ready for bed, before I do get to sleep I'll start the prazipro and hope for the best! 

I believe the bottle says that you should use it for 5-7 days, do a water change and re treat if necessary, no more often than every 3 days. I figure I can re-treat after a water change at day 4 or so? Do that a few times if I see improvement? 

I've seen some posts on salt water forums about prazi when I google it quickly, it seems some people use it for gill flukes so who knows! I'll keep you posted.

Thank you so much for helping me everyone, I really, really appreciate it.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If you're going with prazi, would treat every 3 days for 2-3 weeks (at least two weeks since one week past clear up will keep a reinfection from occurring). I would do big water changes in between rounds weekly). It's very unlikely to work with one treatment based on my experience and observations.

Are you going on parasite based on him being skinny alone? What's his poop look like.. are you seeing any signs of this being parasite at all? Also those NLS are super small so unless you're feeding 6+ a day he will be on the smaller size.. 5 a day is minimum with those and they will be slender.

My guess is still that it's a run of the mill gram positive eye infection that a gram negative antibiotic wouldn't have touched and he needs something specifically gram positive or more broad spectrum like Kanamyacin.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Markham, I am also reading that praziquantel can be used for external flukes. My sources say it is effective for internal parasites but will also target external flukes and parasites as well, although it may not be the most effective external parasite med. Based on this info, I would say try the PraziPro for sure.

Haha, so I still remember college lit classes and it's been drilled into me to always cite my sources so here they are:

I currently use as my main sources The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases by Lance Jepson; A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems by Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey, and Peter Exell; The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein; and several reputable websites for the basis of my information. I do as much research as I can but I'm not an expert or fish veterinarian by any means.


EDIT: The majority of infections are gram negative, not gram positive.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> If you're going with prazi, would treat every 3 days for 2-3 weeks. I would do big water changes in between rounds weekly). It's very unlikely to work with one one treatment based on my experience and observations.
> 
> Are you going on parasite based on him being skinny alone? What's his poop look like.. are you seeing any signs of this being parasite at all? Also those NLS are super small so unless you're feeding 6+ a day he will be on the smaller size.
> 
> My guess is still that it's a run of the mill gram positive eye infection that a gram negative antibiotic wouldn't have touched and he needs something specifically gram positive or more broad spectrum like Kanamyacin.


I was trying Erythromycin and that is a great Gram Positive drug. In humans it's used for Staph, Strep, and other Gram Pos infections. It's a great alternative to the penicillin family for patients who are pen-allergic. 
I haven't noticed any abnormal poo, but have read that some parasitic infections can cause cloudy eye, and he has been very listless and losing his color. I feel that if he did have a gram positive infection, even if it was a more resistant strain I would have seen some sort of change while doing Erythromycin baths... 

I figured that Prazipro is mild, and won't do him much harm, and it's easy to treat with and who knows, I may luck out and fix him! 

If I don't start to see results after a few treatments, (I will re-treat every 3 days) than I will switch over to a stronger antibiotic.

I feed him pellets as well as frozen brine shrimp. I feed the same exact diet to my other male betta and he is normal in size, and is much healthier in appearance.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Markham, I am also reading that praziquantel can be used for external flukes. My sources say it is effective for internal parasites but will also target external flukes and parasites as well, although it may not be the most effective external parasite med. Based on this info, I would say try the PraziPro for sure.
> 
> Haha, so I still remember college lit classes and it's been drilled into me to always cite my sources so here they are:
> 
> I currently use as my main sources The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases by Lance Jepson; A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems by Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey, and Peter Exell; The Betta Handbook by Robert J Goldstein; and several reputable websites for the basis of my information. I do as much research as I can but I'm not an expert or fish veterinarian by any means.


I LOVE SOURCES!!! 

Thanks!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You're welcome. Haha, like I said, my english teachers drilled it into me, semester after semester.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Yeah, for external flukes it works but it takes a long time.. never seen one dose work. It would seem they're starting to become a bit resistant to it, because this wasn't the case a few years ago.

You're also right, most aquarium bacterial infections are gram negative, however most eye infections are gram positive.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Like strep? That's a gram positive. Staph too. Since erythro is a gram positive med, it should have worked at a double strength dosage. :/

What do you mean, "by one dose"? Like one recommended course (don't have the bottle with me, but say for example it says to treat 1 tsp per 10 gal for 5 days as its recommended course) or literally just one dose of meds and then never dosing again? (it's late and my brain is fuzzy so forgive me for being slow on the uptake)


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

have no problem doing several doses if I need too since it's a mild drug and won't harm my fish. 

If I see no improvement I might try API trimeth-sulfa (bactrim) which is broad spectrum and will cover Gram pos and Gram neg. I could aslo get API Tetracycline which will also cover a broad spectrum. 

I know that when looking at antibiotic resistance it's often the dosage that the patient can tolerate that limits the effectiveness of the drug. For example, you could pump someone full of Penicillin and kill the bacteria, but you might also kill the patient. Since I was doing a double dose, I really should have seen some sort of improvement if it was a gram positive infection.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Like strep? That's a gram positive. Staph too. Since erythro is a gram positive med, it should have worked at a double strength dosage. :/
> 
> What do you mean, "by one dose"? Like one recommended course (don't have the bottle with me, but say for example it says to treat 1 tsp per 10 gal for 5 days as its recommended course) or literally just one dose of meds and then never dosing again? (it's late and my brain is fuzzy so forgive me for being slow on the uptake)




I think that since it's not very strong/potent that the parasite will need to exposed to it for a continuos amount of time inorder to stop reproducing, and die. 

I have no idea why I'm awake right now to be honest... I'm not even sure if what I'm writing makes any sense at this point.. heh. 

I have the bottle with me, and the dose is 1tsp/20 gallons for 5-7 days but you can retreat after a water change after no less than 3 days. It also says that doubling the dose will not render it more effective.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Mostly staph I think. I don't know about double Erythryo vs. Kanamyacin.

Yeah by one round I mean the 5-7 days.. or roughly a week, and this includes an additional dose at day 3... Basically treating every 3 days for X number of weeks, and big water changes in between weeks. Usually it takes at least two rounds (or two weeks) but I've seen it take 3 to 4. I've never seen it fail past a month, unless the fish succumbed to the disease before the treatment took hold, which unfortunately can happen rather quickly in other fish without a labyrinth lung.  It just seems like a slow med for some external problems (especially flukes) but it seems to work with time.

My bottle also says 1 tsp per 20 gal.

ETA: Tetracyline isn't worth much except for minor fin rot that could otherwise probably be helped by clean water and salt. It's just so overused anymore a lot of resistant to it, also fish really hate it.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sounds like a plan, markham. Haha, I assume with your background I don't have to warn you about sulfa allergies like I usually do. Since I have a sulfa allergy myself, I always try to warn anyone who is going to use Triple Sulfa.

EDIT: Thanks for clarifying for me, Callistra. Yeah, it will work but it probably isn't the most effective med for external parasites. But since it will target both internal and external, it's a good choice for now.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> Mostly staph I think. I don't know about double Erythryo vs. Kanamyacin.
> 
> Yeah by one round I mean the 5-7 days.. or roughly a week, and this includes an additional dose at day 3... Basically treating every 3 days for X number of weeks, and big water changes in between weeks. Usually it takes at least two rounds (or two weeks) but I've seen it take 3 to 4. I've never seen it fail past a month, unless the fish succumbed to the disease before the treatment took hold, which unfortunately can happen rather quickly in other fish without a labyrinth lung.  It just seems like a slow med for some external problems (especially flukes) but it seems to work with time.



Hmmm, at least where I work and we see a large variety of patients, most strains of Staph species are susceptible to Erythro, unless you have an MRSA or some of the Coag Neg Staphs can get ugly, but I digress. 

I didn't know to add the extra dose at day 3, that's good to know!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Sounds like a plan, markham. Haha, I assume with your background I don't have to warn you about sulfa allergies like I usually do. Since I have a sulfa allergy myself, I always try to warn anyone who is going to use Triple Sulfa.
> 
> EDIT: Thanks for clarifying for me, Callistra. Yeah, it will work but it probably isn't the most effective med for external parasites. But since it will target both internal and external, it's a good choice for now.


That sucks! I had to rack my brain, but I have taken a sulfa drug before.. so I won't have some horrific reaction... that would be a horribly funny way to find out though... Um.. Doc, I was giving my fish drugs.. and had an allergic reaction.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> ETA: Tetracyline isn't worth much except for minor fin rot that could otherwise probably be helped by clean water and salt. It's just so overused anymore a lot of resistant to it, also fish really hate it.




ALSO good to know!! Thanks for the heads up!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

An aquatic MRSA could potentially be disastrous for the food fish industry. :shock:

EDIT: Yes, I agree about the tetracycline. I'd try the Sulfa first.

Yeah, I was like in 4th grade when I was given a sulfa drug for a cough. Got a horrible rash and my throat closed up within 24 hours.  Finding out you have an allergy while dosing your fish would definitely not be fun, eh?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

If he suddenly appears to be really sick while on the prazi, should I immediately switch over to trimeth sulfa and assume it's still bacterial? 

I mean, he's held on so far and has an appetite every day so hopefully this won't even come into play...


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> An aquatic MRSA could potentially be disastrous for the food fish industry. :shock:




Totally.... I had no idea how many antibiotics are pumped into meat until I took an environmental health class....scary stuff!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Markham, I would say yes. As far as I'm aware, suddenly stopping prazi won't harm him or cause any long-term consequences, since it's so mild.

Dang, if I didn't like meat so much I probably would be scared to ever eat a steak again if I took a class like that.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Markham, I would say yes. As far as I'm aware, suddenly stopping prazi won't harm him or cause any long-term consequences, since it's so mild.
> 
> Dang, if I didn't like meat so much I probably would be scared to ever eat a steak again if I took a class like that.


Nah, didn't phase me... and bacon... don't forget about the bacon.... Okay, I clearly need to go to bed now.... 

Thanks guys! I'll keep you all posted


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Just get organic meat and no antibiotics


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> Just get organic meat and no antibiotics



A wholefoods is opening near my apartment soon... I'm pretty excited!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I still haven't seen any improvement or change at all.. not that I was expecting to after only a few days. I ordered Kanamycin to try as well. 

I was doing some reading at work and erythro isn't as strong of a drug as I thought. Kanomycin is also an aminoglycoside drug but is stronger, so I'm going to try it as well as the Prazipro 

My question is how do I treat with this drug? Do I feed it, use it as a bath?


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## MSG (May 8, 2012)

*Eye type injuries/infections can take weeks/months to treat*

That's why I remove ANYTHING that might scratch up their eyes. 

When my bettas are hunting for food, they are 100% focused on the prey. Mine will launch themselves towards rocks if they think a meal is waiting for them.

The only decoration in your tank that could have damaged his eye was probably the lava rock.

Also when a fish is skittish or easily startled, they can bash themselves up against sharp objects. Hence the occasional missing scale for some fish. 

When you factor in the amount of time & medication it takes to treat a injured fish...... euthanizing is easier.

Those medications you're using are above my skill level. No experience with them


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

For the nature of his problem, I would use it as a soak in the water. Medicated food is best for internal bacterial problems. I'm sorry things haven't improved.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> For the nature of his problem, I would use it as a soak in the water. Medicated food is best for internal bacterial problems. I'm sorry things haven't improved.


Could I do a double strength bath every day for a week? Like with the erthryomycin? 

I can float him in my 29G in a medium KK as well.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

MSG said:


> That's why I remove ANYTHING that might scratch up their eyes.
> 
> When my bettas are hunting for food, they are 100% focused on the prey. Mine will launch themselves towards rocks if they think a meal is waiting for them.
> 
> ...


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You can double dose, but I wouldn't. It can be hard on the kidneys. I would just add the one level scoop dose (make sure you level it or you will end up with about a double dose). You probably won't need a double dose. You can very safely treat up to two weeks by dosing every 48 hours, or if you're doing daily water changes you'll have to add back in daily what you take out, and then redose a full every 48.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

You can combine the PraziPro and the Kanaplex for an effective antiparasite/antibacterial med. If you did want to do a double-dose bath of Kanaplex, I would only do one a day for a week and see if there is an improvement. I have not tried Kanaplex in this manner so we would be in uncharted territory. Otherwise, I would use the Kanaplex as a constant soak.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Kanaplex loses its effectiveness after 48 hours, no matter how much you put in there so dosing once a week wouldn't be the best idea.. sorry.. he'd be getting a hard hit then going most of the rest of the week with no meds, which is generally a good way to build resistant bacteria. Sorry.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I like the idea of a constant soak but what would that do to my plants and bacteria in the tank? Could I keep him in a kk floating in my 29 for warmth? I'll have to keep making a new dilution for him daily so I don't overdose or have it lose effectiveness. Or I could take out all my plants and filter media and stick it in my 29 during treatment...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

One bath once a day for a week. That would be seven baths/seven doses.

EDIT: It would be best to treat him in the KK as any med can harm the biological bacteria and most plants are not med tolerant. How big is the KK?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> One bath once a day for a week. That would be seven baths/seven doses.
> 
> EDIT: It would be best to treat him in the KK as any med can harm the biological bacteria and most plants are not med tolerant. How big is the KK?


It's a medium but i also have an ex lg as well. I was thinking of doing 4-6 liters of water and I'll make the bf do the chemistry to make the proper dilution. I could keep him in there daily and do water changes every day or so. I hope i have enough!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Sounds good. Good luck!


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## MSG (May 8, 2012)

The medium kritter k is the perfect size..... just fill 50% with water & float on top of your 29G. Your betta may enjoy the view of the other fish in the tank while his eye is being treated with medication. The X-LG KK would be too big. 

As for the dangerous ornaments..... 
I have wine box full of decorations that I thought were too sharp for the bettas. All the lava rocks are being kept in a different box until I get my ornamental shrimp ONLY tank setup.

If you use the medium KK you should have enough medication.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

MSG said:


> The medium kritter k is the perfect size..... just fill 50% with water & float on top of your 29G. Your betta may enjoy the view of the other fish in the tank while his eye is being treated with medication. The X-LG KK would be too big.
> 
> As for the dangerous ornaments.....
> I have wine box full of decorations that I thought were too sharp for the bettas. All the lava rocks are being kept in a different box until I get my ornamental shrimp ONLY tank setup.
> ...



Great! Thanks. The ex-LG is going to be an upgrade for one of my growing geckos very soon so this works out wonderfully. I should get the meds delivered today. Should I cut back on feedings while I'm treating him in the KK? 
My plan is to do water changes every day to avoid any ammonia buildup. I normally feed every other day but should I change that to every 2 days while he's in treatment?


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## MSG (May 8, 2012)

*Typically*

I use.......


scratched wine glasses as "FLOATING" observation/hospital tanks for tail damage from fighting. 

or if I have several bettas that need treatment, I'll use...


a 2.5g glass tank divided into 2, 3 or 4 equal sections

When it comes to feeding, it totally depends how often you want to change out the water. If fish is thin feed more, chunky then once every 48 hours in hopes they'll slim down a bit, etc... 


I prefer to overfeed a varied diet when they're in "treatment" & it seems to make them care less about being stuck in a little container for a week. 

Depending on my schedule, I try to replace the water every 24-48 hours.

Also, I'm not sure if the medication has any directions/recommendations but if you're using a concentrated dose you may want to do a WC more often.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

All meds have directions. The directions for Kanaplex is one level scoop (I use the lid to level) every 48 hours for every 5 gallons. So to dillute you can take 5 teaspoons of your tank water into a cup and one level of the kanaplex. Mix it up so it's fully dissolved then take as many teaspoons out as you are in gallons.. so if he's in a 1 gallon quarantine you can take 1 teapoon out and add it to the tank. You can use Prazi and Kanaplex together, but just watch him carefully in case he gets really lethargic then I wouldn't continue treating both together. Prazi will probably take at least 2 weeks to clear anything up based on experience and research, but Kanaplex would work much faster.

He's not bloated at all is he? The pics on the first page suggest he's a little slender. I would continue to feed normally..5-8 NLS a day split up and a fast day a week. I would never overfeed.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> All meds have directions. The directions for Kanaplex is one level scoop (I use the lid to level) every 48 hours for every 5 gallons. So to dillute you can take 5 teaspoons of your tank water into a cup and one level of the kanaplex. Mix it up so it's fully dissolved then take as many teaspoons out as you are in gallons.. so if he's in a 1 gallon quarantine you can take 1 teapoon out and add it to the tank. You can use Prazi and Kanaplex together, but just watch him carefully in case he gets really lethargic then I wouldn't continue treating both together. Prazi will probably take at least 2 weeks to clear anything up based on experience and research, but Kanaplex would work much faster.
> 
> He's not bloated at all is he? The pics on the first page suggest he's a little slender. I would continue to feed normally..5-8 NLS a day split up and a fast day a week. I would never overfeed.


He's not bloated at all! I think I'm going try the kanoplex on it's own in a separate tank for a week first.. because I have a feeling it will do the trick. And I'll know much quicker. It should come in the mail later today. If I make a dilution like that, won't the excess lost it's effectiveness? I have a gram scale, so I might do grams/liter to dilute since I'll be using liters to measure how much water is in his tank. 

If the Kanomycin doesn't work I'll get my hands on Minocycline which the 3rd generation of tetracycline... but hopefully it won't come to that! 


The gram scale is for gecko weights.. not drugs I swear!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Minocycline (brand name Maracyn II) is typically no longer effective in fish because it's been overused and abused. A lot of fish bacteria have built up a resistance to it and in addition, it is very hard on the kidneys. If Kanaplex didn't work, I doubt minocycline will. :/


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Agreed ^

There are meds that still have potential to work if Kanaplex fails. Maracyn Plus has some potential. However, Kanaplex is generally very effective on eye infections.

When you mix up the meds you'll have to throw away the excess. There's plenty in the tube to last you months of redosing. To treat you take 5 teaspoons of choice of tank water into a little cup and one level (use the lid to level it off) measure of the Kanplex. Mix it up well so that it's dissolved. Then take however many gallons the quarantine tank is... measure in gallons because Kanaplex is measured scoop/5g and if you don't you'll have to do a gallons to liter conversion and it won't be exact. So if it's like 1 gallon you take one teaspoon out to use and toss the rest. If it's 2.5 gallons you take 2.5 teaspoons out; toss the rest.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Haha, I guess this is what I get for using human antibiotic guidelines for fish, huh? 

I'm still waiting for Fed Ex!!! Gah!


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Okay, he's in about 1 gallon of water with the proper dilution of kanaplex! I have a silk plant in there for him and fed him before I put him in there. I'll leave him in there for 48 hours, then do a 100% change and repeat. 

Here's a stupid question.. how long will the good bacteria in his main tank survive without an ammonia source? There are plans and pest snails in there.. so I'm assuming the cycle won't crash without him?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't know if snails will be enough to maintain a cycle.. I would tend to say yes, but hopefully someone else will know more and can comment. You can feed it with drops of pure ammonia from Ace Hardware but be aware you'll have to do a test for nitrates and likely do a very large water change to get rid of them before you add him back.. but again don't know how the snails would fair on that.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Put a few pellets of food in. That and the snails will help keep the cycle going. You won't lose all your bacteria although you may need to monitor for ammonia spikes for a few days.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Put a few pellets of food in. That and the snails will help keep the cycle going. You won't lose all your bacteria although you may need to monitor for ammonia spikes for a few days.


Okay, cool. 

Should I still do water changes, especially to remove the prazi. (when he goes back to his tank I wanted to give him a break from medications)


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Running carbon for 12-24 hours will remove the prazi. The Prazi is in the main tank right? Also I would check ammonia nitrites and nitrates before adding him back just to be safe. It's possible you might need to do a water change before adding him back.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Fin


callistra said:


> Running carbon for 12-24 hours will remove the prazi. The Prazi is in the main tank right? Also I would check ammonia nitrites and nitrates before adding him back just to be safe. It's possible you might need to do a water change before adding him back.


The prazi is in the main tank. I'll definitely do a water change before he goes back


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

It's been 24 hours in his hospital floating tank and he seems great! He's swimming about and has some color!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'm very glad to hear he's doing better. How does his eye look though?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> I'm very glad to hear he's doing better. How does his eye look though?


I think it looks better! I did a 100% change with a fresh dilution of the kanamycin and took a close look at his eye.. It looks less cloudy, and I can see the iris again! 

I'd say it's gone from a milky white to a haze in his eye. 

I'll take some pictures tomorrow when I get home from work. 

on a side note, I can't believe it's almost Christmas! Holy crap....


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I took some new pictures just now... I think he looks better.. he still has a ways to go but it's an improvement..right? I did another change with fresh kanaplex tonight. 

Ignore the white spot on the side of the KK... I didn't notice it until after I took pictures..



























































Thoughts?

EDIT: I forgot to add that when you look down at him, his eyes are the same size again!


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm glad his eyes are the same size again!  How long has he been on the Kanaplex, remind me?

Also how many NLS are you feeding again? Whatever it is I'd make sure he's getting at least 6 a day.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

This is the start of his third "treatment" So, day 5-6


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

He's looking better.  I hope he turns blue again and doesn't decide to go red. I like that his fins are looking open and not clamped.


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## KirstenMarie (Dec 23, 2012)

I get similar problems like this in all of my animals (including fish). It usually comes from old age, a brain tumor, or a hard hit to the head causing a pinched nerve in the eye which makes it seem like the eye is smaller or swollen because that nerve will either pull the eye farther into the socket or push it a bit outwards. Sometimes it will get better (depending on why that animal got it) and sometimes it just stays the same. My 13 year old dog has the same thing and her eye has looked cloudy since last year.. Doesn't seem to make much progress. She can still see out of this eye though, and doesn't seem to be in pain, so everything is perfectly fine with her.


Anywho, I hope that isn't what happened here!
Good luck with everything!


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Popeye is a bacterial infection... At least in fish. I. Dogs it's usually cataracts


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

hmm, I feel like his recovery has hit a stalemate. 

Should I up the dose? or wait it out and see if it improves more? 

I know this drug is hard on their kidneys.. so I don't want to push it. 

He's active though, well as active as a fish in a tank floating in another tank can be


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I wouldn't treat for more than 2 weeks at which time I would give him at least a week off meds - epsom salts can continue. After 2 weeks time I might switch to Maracyn Plus. Kanaplex can be used for up to a month in severe cases but I wouldn't push him unless you feel that a week off meds might be terminal. I've seen people double dose Kanaplex but Seachem recommends against it and I have never felt comfortable doing it because it is very hard on the kidneys. If you do decide to double dose watch him very carefully and if you see him going downhill - really sluggish and clamped, stop treatment immediately.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> I wouldn't treat for more than 2 weeks at which time I would give him at least a week off meds - epsom salts can continue. After 2 weeks time I might switch to Maracyn Plus. Kanaplex can be used for up to a month in severe cases but I wouldn't push him unless you feel that a week off meds might be terminal. I've seen people double dose Kanaplex but Seachem recommends against it and I have never felt comfortable doing it because it is very hard on the kidneys. If you do decide to double dose watch him very carefully and if you see him going downhill - really sluggish and clamped, stop treatment immediately.


I'm working crazy hours so I don't want to risk not being home to see him doing poorly. 

The kicker is that I'm going away on vacation from the 4th-8th and my boyfriend will be home to take care of the animals... but he won't do the drug dosing.... so I guess I'll try treating with kanamycin until New Years day and then I'll do a large water change in his main tank and stick him back in. I'll watch for ammonia spikes and it should be all squared away by Thursday when I leave. I'll order some maracyn plus when I'm in VT and it will be waiting for me in my apt when I get home the following Tuesday. That will give him exactly a week off of all medications.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

So... a frustrating update. 

I got back from vacation last night and even though my boyfriend did a great job caring for my small zoo, Magikarp's eye looks worse than before.. and he has a bit of fin rot. 


What should I do now? Other than the obvious of water changes etc.? 

What's a last resort drug? I mean, he's swimming and eating just fine. He's not nearly as active as he used to be... and his other eye is perfectly fine! 

Should I get trimeth-sulfa?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

How long has he been on meds now? I just hate to keep throwing new stuff at him because you don't want to over-medicate.. but on the flip if he's going downhill I don't want to say wait and week.. yanno? 

Furan 2 or triple sulfa maybe? IDK Kanaplex usually gets it. Kanaplex usually is the catch all/top one. IT works when the other two don't sometimes.. Maybe someone else has experience treating well with something else. I've always used Kanaplex. I know Triple Sulfa has three antibiotics and Furan 2 has two. Also Maracyn Plus has two pretty good hitters. Sakura?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

I had him off of all drugs and back in his tank for a week. 

I took him off the Kanamycin because in the beginning he got better.... but then he got worse and went back to square one.. even after several doses. 

Right now I have him in a bath with Triple Sulfa and aquarium salt.. it's day 2 and I'm changing everything every day. He's floating in a KK in my 29G for warmth. 

I guess after this I'll try the Furan next... ? 

Maybe he's just not aging well? I mean, he's a year old now, or at least that's how long I've had him... The fin rot is out of the blue because I've never had an issue with this for him.. not since I brought him home from Petco. 

GAH! He used to be so active and crazy... it's terrible seeing him so lethargic.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Don't treat with meds and AQ. Just one or the other.

Seems to be very resistant infection.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> Don't treat with meds and AQ. Just one or the other.
> 
> Seems to be very resistant infection.




Okay! Good to know.. I won't. 


Is there a chance it could be fungal? 

I mean, it's not fuzzy.. but it could be yeast.. maybe I should get a fungal treatment if the triple sulfa doesn't work?


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Kanaplex should have taken care of a fungal infection. Cloudy eye is either a bacterial infection or parasite infection but we've not seen any signs of parasites right? And for some reason I remember back a ways that was already attempted.. Haven't you used a prazipro bath already? for how long?

You need to be really careful about pumping drug after drug after drug into him. There's only so much his body will be able to take. I do expect Triple Sulfa to take care of this. The only other thing I can think of that could work at this point would be Furan 2 but I just can't imagine that working in a case were Kanaplex and Triple Sulfa wouldn't. That would be an oddly resistant strain, which I guess is possible but so unlikely. 

How often/how much water are you changing daily/weekly now? You're using a siphon/gravel vac right and not just skimming water off the top?

How is he acting other than the eye being cloudy? I'm not sure of the likelihood he could have just plain lost it permanently. It's all the right size yes? I can see looking back at the series of photos his eye has improved. What does it look like now?

What/how much are you feeding?


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> Kanaplex should have taken care of a fungal infection. Cloudy eye is either a bacterial infection or parasite infection but we've not seen any signs of parasites right? And for some reason I remember back a ways that was already attempted.. Haven't you used a prazipro bath already? for how long?
> 
> You need to be really careful about pumping drug after drug after drug into him. There's only so much his body will be able to take. I do expect Triple Sulfa to take care of this. The only other thing I can think of that could work at this point would be Furan 2 but I just can't imagine that working in a case were Kanaplex and Triple Sulfa wouldn't. That would be an oddly resistant strain, which I guess is possible but so unlikely.
> 
> ...


I change 50% of the water twice a week. Sometimes it's only once. I do have a gravel vac and do use that. I don't use it every time, I'd say I vac the gravel every other water change. 

He spends about 80% of his time laying at the bottom of the tank.. he'll come up if he hears me upen the lid to feed him. He seems to be more active at night..as far as swimming around goes. 
His eye is not popping out of head, but it's cloudy and almost looks like a bad cataract. It might be a tad larger than his healthy eye. It's about as bad as it was in the beginning now. 

Before the eye issue he would swim around super fast and constantly. 

I feed him4-5 NLS pellets every other day and frozen brine shrimp, not at the same time however.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Well the feeding regiment would account for his slender body. I would feed 4-5 daily, except on days you feed the brine shrimp and one fast day a week. Only feeding every other day and so few at that will yield a slender betta like you're seeing. 

He's still floating in tupperware? What size is it? I would expect you need to do much higher water changes.. Even a 2G while he's sick should be getting at minimum 50% changes every other day with one 100% a week. Depending on the size you may need to do 100% daily. If he's back in the 29G being treated just know all these meds have totally toasted the bb supply and the die off could have created an ammonia spike.. more than 50% weekly water change will now be needed so you should be monitoring/testing. Also some plants don't like meds so be careful.

Not sure what else to suggest


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

callistra said:


> Well the feeding regiment would account for his slender body. I would feed 4-5 daily, except on days you feed the brine shrimp and one fast day a week. Only feeding every other day and so few at that will yield a slender betta like you're seeing.
> 
> He's still floating in tupperware? What size is it? I would expect you need to do much higher water changes.. Even a 2G while he's sick should be getting at minimum 50% changes every other day with one 100% a week. Depending on the size you may need to do 100% daily. If he's back in the 29G being treated just know all these meds have totally toasted the bb supply and the die off could have created an ammonia spike.. more than 50% weekly water change will now be needed so you should be monitoring/testing. Also some plants don't like meds so be careful.
> 
> Not sure what else to suggest



I have him in a medium KK with 4 liters of water (floating in the 29G), while treating I change 100% every day. I haven't put any antibiotics in his 5 gallon tank, because I don't want to destroy the cycle or harm the plants. I've been dropping food in there to keep the cycle going while he's out of his normal tank. 

I will start to feed him more


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## jpottle (Jan 7, 2013)

How's the eye doing, rmarkham? Hoping for some good news.


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## rmarkham (Oct 4, 2012)

jpottle said:


> How's the eye doing, rmarkham? Hoping for some good news.



Since taking him off all antibiotics, he hasn't gotten any better.. or worse. He still eats and swims around, just not as much as before this whole thing started. It looks like his eye has lost all function, and is in the process of falling off. 

I had left him in the care of my boyfriend when I went away at the beginning of January, and since then he's had a bit of fin rot.. it also hasn't gotten any worse.. perhaps it will never improve. 

It's a bummer, but at least he still swims about and eats.


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