# Venla x Wild Card



## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Venla (Sire)









Wild Card (Dame)










As it turned out, my crowntail decided that she was too good for Venla and would rather alternate aggressively flaring and ignoring my male. I had wanted Wild Card to be Venla's second spawnmate, but on a whim (she's been eating the same yummy frozen foods Jezebel has) tried her out, and she almost immediately vertically barred! 

Their flirtation started last night, but the spawn finished mid-afternoon today. I'd put a small piece of bubble wrap face down in a clearing opposite the heater and all of the live floating plants as recommended in every piece of advice I'd ever seen; Venla decided to stick it to the man and build his nest on the opposite side of the tank, directly over the heater. 

Thankfully this morning it looked like Wild Card had made him move it a few inches away to the front wall so that they had room to embrace underneath it. They looked so awkward at first I was afraid that they weren't going to get the hang of it, but soon enough they clicked, and eggs started falling! I wasn't there for all of it, but they went for a good few hours, and a good 10-13 eggs were dropped during each embrace once they were in the swing of things. Of course, I won't know how many fry I have until they hatch! 










See? As close to the heater as he could get. He's a contrary little fish...










Wild Card and her mating stripes. 


The whole thing was more gentle than I'd braced myself for; Venla had a few tears in his dorsal fin and Wild Card has two small splits in her caudal. They're clean, partial splits, so I'm not sure if it came from nips or just flaring and displaying at each other for just over 24 hours.

They spawned in a heavily plant (er, floated) 20 gallon tank, so I'm tempted to try the father in method if a huge number of fry make it to the free swimming stage. I have the time in my day to maintain water quality, keep him stuffed on adult food, and suction up excess food and waste that will accumulate, as well as keep an eye on him and see if he's just culling the poor ones that didn't form well, or is going hog wild and needs to be scooped out.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

About at the 24 hour mark for the spawn, and the nest is considerably smaller. Venla hasn't abandoned it; he's simply maintaining a small portion. This was both Bettas first spawn; perhaps only a small portion of eggs were fertilized. Will a male sometimes tend an empty nest? I'm sure I see a few eggs..


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Still tending the (smaller) nest


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

UPDATE: WE HAVE FRY!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Don't worry, I won't post every day!

I just wanted to post another picture on their second day out of the egg because I can finally see their little eyes! They're being very well behaved and I've only seen one fall out of the bubble nest and wiggle back up. I'm guessing that maybe because it's a small spawn, they don't knock each other loose, and Venla doesn't have a hard time keeping a small bubble nest strong enough for them to float in.

Speaking of Venla, dad's been having a super easy time with his first spawn. He'll patrol the tank, nose up to the nest and put some more bubbles in if any have popped, then continue on his way. I know I said that I'd only try the father-in method if I had a large number of fry, but he's having such a stress-free time with them I think that unless something big changes with his behavior I'll leave him in after they're free swimming. 

I can see several of them horizontal in the nest here, but I watched them carefully after checking the camera, and they all still appear to be dangling. Maybe they'll be free swimming tomorrow? 

Their papa made the nest right in the middle of all of the java moss, hornwort and anacharis that's been in the water for nearing four days, but I went ahead and started two infusoria cultures the day that spawning started so I can supplement what's been growing in the tank.

I want to start raising the water level so I can do gentle daily water changes with the drip method that hrutan outlined in their spawn log. as soon as I can. I'm going to go float the question over in the Breeding Bettas forum after this; I've seen people saying that they leave the water alone anywhere from two weeks to a whole month, and that seems like an awful long time to me, especially with an adult in as well.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I don't leave the water for more than a week after free swimming. It gives me the fidgets, even with a cycled filter running. If you don't have a cycled sponge filter in the tank, the ammonia's going to spike long before 2 weeks. But, changing the water is a delicate process. I'd turkey baster Dad's poop out, and use a white bowl to take out water in general. That way you can see if you have any fry and put them back before you dispose of the water. It's too difficult to worry about the junk on the bottom until the fry are big enough to avoid the siphon.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Thank you so much! Only saw this after I made a thread over in breeding, whoops.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Haha, sure thing. The first spawn is so nerve wracking. It's hard to keep from messing with things, isn't it?


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Yes! I thought I'd calm down for the few days that they were just hanging around the bubble nest, but nope! Venla's much much calmer about the whole thing than I am...everything seems to have gone right so far, but I've read a lot of people's spawn logs here (yours is amazingly helpful btw), and it seems like these first two weeks of development are when things can tip one way or the other from the smallest things.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Okay, I know I said I wouldn't post every day, but there has been a development with the "father-in" track that I think is interesting


During the hanging and egg stages of the spawn (heck, even the actual act of spawning itself) Venla was very calm and accepting of me poking my nose into things with my camera and flashlight. Up until today, he's even left his nest at the sight of me to come beg for food on the far side of the tank, leaving his fry only momentarily, but without any signs of stress or defensive aggression towards my encroachment.

However, now that all fry are free swimming, rather than turning on them to have a snack, his "dad mode" has kicked into high gear. This morning I was marveling at a little fry who had come close to the glass, when a _very_ aggressive Venla popped up as well, grabbed the baby, and shot it back into the safety of the bubble nest. He then went on a round-up, finding any fry he could find that were close to the unwelcome intruder and spitting them back to safety as well. He will still accept food from me on the side of the tank opposite the nest, but his defensive aggression and protectiveness of the fry remain amped up even when he's stuffing his face. Tonight he left some bloodworms in favor of checking in on his brood, only coming back to retrieve them from the tank floor after he'd made his rounds and shored up his nest. 

I just thought this was an interesting reversal of all the behavior patterns I read about while researching and getting ready for my own spawn. The usual story was " loving and devoted till free swimming, then all bets are off." 

The plants may help make him feel more secure in his environment, but they aren't needed to help "hide from dad." Several fry are enamored with the drip site, which is at the bare, far end of the tank with only one stray branch of anacharis to hover by. I was watching three fry swim there and, when dad noticed, he swam straight over and I was once again treated to a full, threatening flare while the little tails with eyes flitted around his head. 

The only two factors that I think helped encourage this attitude have been a steady supply of adult food for dad, as well as spawning in a 20 gallon tank that gives them plenty of space. Maybe Venla doesn't feel like there are too many young for his territory. Save for mealtimes, I think I will try backing off entirely and sacrifice my enjoyment of watching the babies to lower dad's stress levels. 

I'm very happy that, with this particular father at least, I've decided not to remove him as soon as the fry were free swimming. He's so engaged with and defensive of his young, I'm afraid that he might have sunk into a post-spawn depression rather than just a small sulk and ended up wasting away.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

This is ideal behavior from a tending father. Thumbs up!

The reason "all bets are off" is because so many breeders remove the father after the fry reach the free-swimming stage, that predatory behavior is no longer selected against. In the cases where the male will not tend, the breeder will artificially hatch or give the eggs to a foster father. This means "bad dads" still get their genes in the gene pool. The practice of removing the father early started out as a way to obtain a larger number of fry per spawn (dad will _always _eat some), and in some lines, is now a necessity.


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

Subb


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Yay! Gold stars all around for Venla so far, then~ 

Hm, that makes sense when you explain it, but that's never mentioned in the "how to's" that pop up. Betty Splendens chronicling of her positive experience with the method was great, but her breeding guide on a separate page still recommended removing the father. As a show-level betta breeder, I suppose that to them it's just common sense that removing the dad = guaranteeing that your golden betta isn't the unlucky fry dad decides isn't developing quite right. 

She did mention that out of that experiment only 38 developed to maturity, but that those 38 were behaviorally and developmentally amazing. That's something I'd really love to pursue--selecting and rearing in a way that favors tending fathers as well as good form and health.

Yesterday I was weak and scooped up a copper super delta that's the complete opposite of Venla's temperament. If I do end up breeding him to a dark-bodied female and he isn't such a Parent of the Year, would I be better off selecting a female from his spawn to cross with a male from Venla's? 

In other words, could a tending father, both genetically and behaviorally, change the course? If so, Venla's going to have his "good dad" genes spread _everywhere._

Edit: omg, thank you! I'm glad I'm not boring everyone.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Behavior comes from two factors: Environment, and genetics. In short, yes. If you want a good dad, you need to breed for good dads. Even if the good father is removed or dies, the fry will have a greater chance of also being a good dad. If the father stays in, however, that possibility is magnified even more. There are some breeders who will not breed a fish that refuses to flare in the photo tank or cup for the same reason - even if he has perfect form, that temperament is passed on.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm excited by this method of breeding! I can't wait to see pictures of the fry when Daddy lets you.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Thanks! He's still all huffy and lets the little cories next door know who's boss. I did see some last night during feeding! They're just big eyes and little white bellies stuffed with paramecium, but I can actually see the little bud of a caudal tail on one that got close to the glass! I'm going to wait a few more days before I push my big DSLR camera up in dad's territory, though. Right now I'm still only tolerated when I bring food for everyone.


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## TerriGtoo (Jul 2, 2013)

Hehe, you could always get some binoculars and watch them from across the room! Dad will never know what you are up to!


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

These two are gorgeous! I can't wait to see the fry, this log is too cute with all the care the father is doing!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Guess who's big enough to capture on my cellphone camera! That smudge behind him is a cute little caudal~

They hang out around the walls because I've got some teeny tiny worms (I think planeria?) climbing the walls of the tank that are bigger than the paramecium and other smaller infusoria, but still small enough that the spawn can easily make a meal of them. I was originally going to introduce some other foods at this point, but they're maintaining their fat little white bellies from what's living in the tank with them. At this rate I might actually be able to raise the fry up to transition off of live food and onto pulverized frozen without having to introduce things like egg yolk or other foods that will spoil the water quality.

And yes, I had to stop trying to take a better picture when SOMEONE'S indignant head popped up in my view. Venla, stop making me feel like paparazzi...


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

So, I did it; I finally decided that I needed to scoop my quartet into a manageable space. However, I didn't want to take them out of the spawn/grow out tank and risk shock. Daddy's still not predatory and the four are growing well, but I wanted to respawn with Wild Card in the hopes that they'd embrace better after their first time together and produce a larger spawn. However, they're on their second week, and big enough to dart over and snack on newly hatched fry. So the first spawn needs to be contained, but without subjecting them to shock or cutting off their water flow by simple cupping. What to do?


I present the DIY for how to gather small amounts of fry into one easily feedable spot in a tank while allowing water flow: 

--Take half a 2 liter soda bottle and with any sort of sharp object smaller than your spawn (I used a large gauge needle) put in plenty of holes all around. Don't put them on the bottom; this will allow you to feed them and easily suction up the remnants afterwards. 

--Take four large foam circles from a hair curler set. Cut them so that they rest halfway onto the edges of the soda bottle. Take fishing line and loop through one of your small holes, tying a knot in the middle of each piece of foam to secure it. 

Tada! That's it! Now the four are secured where water can continue to flow in and out, but they are easy to find and feed, and if you want to redo a pairing in hopes of a larger spawn (which I am), you can prevent sibling predation without risking shocking the small fry by moving them to a different tank/cupping them. Picture below. All four are inside and happily snacking on infusoria. Dad wasn't particularly thrilled about this, but seems resigned to the situation. He can still see and smell his fry, which is enough to not continue his stress. 

(I took this picture the right way around, but the forum decided to turn it on its side...)


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

You should put a copy of that in the Breeding DIY thread, too. For those that aren't following your spawn...this looks neat.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Really? Maybe, after I give it another few days of trial to make sure that there aren't unforeseen consequences with using it; I wouldn't want to put up a DIY for something that would end up harming other people's fry...

Right now it seems to work, though. They're still spending most of their time in the water column instead of on the bottom, and there's still lots and lots of floating infusoria concentrated inside of the bottle and even settled on the bottom.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Checking out the new bubblenest to see if anything of note is happening, Venla getting affronted and getting in my way










Wait a minute...











THAT IS A LOT MORE THAN THE LAST SPAWN ATTEMPT. WOW. SUCCESS.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

*Video of Venla tending the new teeny babies!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsOkvPNSHo


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Gah, it's too precious!!!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Haha sorry about being so far away! I had to wait for him to check on the other side of the tank to even get close enough for details on the babies...I'm turning into betta paparazzi.


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

I would be all over that tank too haha! It's very cool to see how his little routine is for the little ones!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

He's calmed down about roping them in; earlier today when they were just starting to make a break from the nest he was _not_ having it. Venla and Wild Card's spawns both started swimming very early, but Venla keeps his nest ready just in case they need to come hide under it.


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Have you seen different temperament or development in a fish that has been tended by the father so closely?


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

This is actually my first spawn--well, second technically. I have four fish in the tank on their second week from Venla and Wild Card's first time when they didn't know how to wrap properly. I've yet to see how my group turns out as adults, but from everything that I've read from other, more experienced breeders, if the father wants to tend and stays with the fry after they become free swimming, the offspring that survive (daddy culls unhealthy fry so you don't have to later on) are healthier and better behavior-wise, and if a male from that spawn is used to breed, there's a much higher chance of getting another good dad.


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

That's really cool, for lack of better words. I really hope if/when I start breeding that I get a great dad like your boy!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

I honestly got very lucky with the sire for my first spawn; a lot of people are very cautious about leaving the father in. I only attempted it because since F1 is the spawn of two pet store quality bettas, I wanted the healthiest, strongest fry to survive.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

First, a picture of Venla surrounded by some of his little fry. I've never seen these little guys at the bottom of the tank, so between that and their dad's magnificent ventrals, I'm hoping that none of the fish have trouble growing them/end up with late-growing little stubs. 










Also, I finally got my sponge filters in from Amazon, and they're...a little bigger than I had anticipated....










oops...


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## Nimble (Aug 31, 2014)

What size sponge filters did you order?


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

4 1/2 inch. That just translated into an all-around huge filter. It just. Goes to remind me that visualizing things to scale is not my strong point...


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm so glad he's such a great dad! Look at all those babies! That is a huge filter, too.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

LOL, I did that, too. Bought a sponge filter at the LFS, brought it home, and realized just how big it was...


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

The filter looks gigantic in their tank, but Venla decided to ignore it after some aggressive preliminary inspection, while some of the fry have decided it's the coolest thing ever and have made it their new hangout. 

Right now I've got it so there's just enough air to make a gentle line of slow, small bubbles coming up, and they don't seem to be bothered by whatever disturbance it's causing; no one has retreated to the bottom or is stuck to the thing! I've got an identical one with more flow in the grow out tank next door, and my little clean up crew in waiting (three cories and two snails) are thrilled as well.

Sadist- I need to find him some sort of betta equivalent of a "#1 Dad" mug! He's been a lot better about accepting food from me since his second spawn. I don't think I was the only one who didn't like trying to keep tabs of just four babies in a 20 gallon.

Hrutan-your lfs sells sponge filters!? I had never even seen them before reading spawn logs on here...


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes, what's even odder about that is it isn't, technically, a fish store. It's a general warehouse-style pet shop. But, the manager is a big betta person, so there are all sorts of useful supplies there.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Daddy finally moved out of the spawn tank today! He didn't become aggressive, but the fry from his first spawn with Wild Card are getting big enough to start trying pulverized frozen foods (and the second spawn is too big to snack on!). Venla is a good dad, but I doubt his ability to not hog all the food. He had a good run; he's been in the spawn tank doing his duties since the 13th.

The first spawn actually look like fish now going into the third week. As for the younger fry, I can already see tiny pectoral fins, and without Dad shooing them away, they are all crowding around the front of the tank. I also see iridescence on their tails when they swim into the beam of my flashlight. I know it's not their colors coming in, but it's still so cute.


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

*Now that Venla isn't getting in the way...a fry picture dump!*



























(I see a pectoral~)


















(Pectoral again!)


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## Bikeridinguckgirl14 (Oct 22, 2013)

<3!!!


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## SunnySideIvy (Jan 14, 2015)

Ahh! The little squirts are so adorable!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I saw pectorals on almost all of the pictures! They're so cute!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Breaking news on the Adorable Front! The largest fry from the first spawn attempt has a very small but perfectly formed anal fin!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Awesome!


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## caffanne (Dec 27, 2014)

Pictures is one of my month-old fry en route to the grow out tank. It's not visible in the photo, but at least two fry have nice ventral fins starting already!


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## minikin (Dec 4, 2014)

Totally adorable!


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## MyBettaEsther (Jan 9, 2015)

Wow, I read your spawn log through, and it is just amazing! How all the little fry are growing...


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I love it!


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