# Question



## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Why can't you breed pet store bettas? They seem the same as breeder's bettas. I don't get it. :-? They all end up as bettas. Is it because petstore bettas are not as pretty? I want to know.


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## shinybetta (Jul 3, 2010)

They say you shouldnt breed them because they have a mixed genetic background and are to old, but I say you its okay. Im currently breeding pet store bettas for my first spawn as I dont want to mess up and kill an 80 dollar pair!:shock:


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

So that is why. I say it is fine. Mixed genes are not going to kill anyone


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## beat2020 (Dec 31, 2009)

As said above you shouldn't breed pet store bettas because you don't know there genetic background. Also
1. Because you don't know their genetic background you can't really breed for a color you like because the parents might be one color but then the fry could be a completely different color.
2. You are going to have a hard time selling the fry because you don't know their genetic background.
3.Sometimes pet store bettas are too old to be bred.
Just to name a few things.If you really want to breed I say get a nice pair of bettas from Aquabid or Bettysplendens and you will be satisfied with the results from your spawn and quality of the fry.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

The "I want a practice pair" thing really really gets on my nerves.

Here is why people don't advocate breeding pet store fish...
1. You don't know the genetic background of the fish, therefore you have no way of knowing what you will get. It is irresponsible to breed an animal just because you want to see what you will get. If you are curious about what happens when you mix genetics than read books on genetics and ask people who are well versed in genetics. This way your question is answered without bringing potentially unwanted fish into the world.

2. Often times pet store fish are unhealthy and breeding is very taxing on a fish's health. Even a perfectly healthy fish can get sick as a result of over stress due to breeding. Age is a similar factor as many pet store fish are past the prime age for breeding.

3. Most pet store fish are NOT good examples of their tail types. In the same way an ethical dog breeder breeds to a set of standards, a Betta breeder should try to uphold the standards set forth as best as they can. The whole purpose of breeding ANYTHING is to try to produce the "perfect specimen" of the organism you choose, why start with bad stock?

4. Many people who breed pet store fish have a very hard time finding homes for the fry. They end up giving them to pet stores for almost no money or store credit. We all see on forums like this every single day about how badly fish are mistreated in 99% of pet stores... why add to the problem?

There is ethical breeding and then there is breeding just for the sake of "experience." IMO if you are going to breed you need to have a reason for doing it, beyond "I want to produce a fish that is this color". You need to be able to say.. "It is my goal that over a long time of line breeding that I will produce a fish with sound body, good color, and that fits the standard perfectly"... A perfect fish. Perfection is a near impossibility but it should be the goal regardless.

As far as "I just want a pet store pair for practice"... Dog, horse, cat, goat, cockroach, snake... you name it.. NO ONE that breeds animals ethically gets a pair for "practice". On a dog forum if someone came on there saying they wanted to breed their shelter mutts for "practice" they would be eaten alive, and for good reason. Breeding is a SERIOUS thing, you are bringing life into an already overpopulated world.. you better have a good reason for doing so.

Like the saying goes.. *Do or do not, there is no try.*


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Tropical fish are not mammals, and IMO there is nothing wrong with breeding pet shop Bettas or any other fish bought from a pet shop, how do you think we got the first HM-pet shop betta started that one....

No, you don't know their back ground-but that is the exciting part-you don't know what you are going to get, to make your own line you have to go "outside the box" but you also have to be ready to cull hard and that can be up to 95% of the spawn that you have to destroy.

You can buy the expensive bettas from a breeder and continue their line, or buy a Betta from aquabid from breeders that mass produce and all you are getting is a expensive unknown betta.

How do you know anything about what you are getting no matter who or where you get it either pet-shop or aquabid

I do agree that you need a plan on what you are going to do with the fry once grown.

I don't consider myself as an un-ethical breeder, although I haven't bought a betta off the shelf in a long time-I wouldn't hesitate to do so and use as a breeder if I seen one that fit into my plan.

To breed and create your own line you have to do some experimenting.


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## shinybetta (Jul 3, 2010)

Exactly ofl! I know what I want and where to put the fry. I'm breeding for fin types and that would be awesome if my colors were random!


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

I agree with Ofl... Theres no doubt in my mind that we all love our betta fish greatly, but there is also the reality of the matter to take into consideration. As stated before, there is a large over-production of betta fish throughout the world, many in which (very sadly) will never find thier owners. However, you cannot justify responsibility of a breeder by simply finding each betta a home... for if there was no breeder to begin with, then the pet-store bought bettas would then have a home themselves. In that arguement, it is without a doubt that you could hold -all- breeder responsible for the loss of all pet-store betta's. I apologize if this seems direct, but its harsh to tax someone with such response to begin with.

I'm not a breeder, but I do intend to breed within time, when I'm fully equiped witht he knowledge to do so and the currency to back it up (and trust me, I'll be doing plenty of hours of research and planning within the next year before even attempting to breed). My reasoning for breeding is to extend my own 'betta branch', or however you may word it. Overall though... I wish to achieve a complete and utter attacthment to my betta-friend in which I helped raise from the begining. I can assume that others breed for this reason too, that we hope to come to this end result; but not always by achieving a 'pro-breed'.

Theres always a middle ground in which suits both sides equally though.

As far as actually breeding store bought bettas though.


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

You can breed them. There just not worth anything, and unless you are a member of the IBC and no the standard's. Then your just hurting the breed not helping.. And even if you knew the standard's it would take years and years to get all bad genetics out and then start with a half way decent betta. Or you spend 10 dollars extra and get a pretty decent fish to start off you breeding stock.. Then there's not to much fin improvment's you have to do. Just small improvments and playing with color paterns...

You say, you cant see the difference? Your telling me when you look on AB and then you go to petco you dont see a difference... 

Plus your just helping the betta in a cup deal everyone hate's, or the small tank betta that nobody care's about. Because say you do breed them and then some people want them, they get them and start looking into bettas. Now they want a really good betta they dont want this whatever betta, so he gets put in a small bowl or cup and dont get water changes that much while the person is more worried about the new show betta. I have walked into some small back wood's breeders places and seen messed up things... :^(

This topic has been hot for year's and year's threw out the betta world and most show class breeder's wont waste there breath on the topic..


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

Why breed more of the fish you can find in any pet store? It's like going to the pound and picking two random dogs that look sort of similar and kind of pretty. Simply being pretty is not enough to make a fish good breeding stock. I agree with 1fish2fish. It's unethical whether it is a fish or a dog.

Also, breeding is expensive. It is not a practical hobby for the average person. You need to have a steady income and a lot of time on your hands to devote to it. If you can't invest in a good breeding pair then you probably don't have enough money to breed bettas in general. 

In my opinion, humanity in general would be a lot happier if they would simply learn that you don't need to _possess_ something in order to appreciate it. You don't need to breed bettas to love them and be a part of this hobby. I would love to do it someday, sure--but I am mature enough to understand that breeding is an enterprise that simply would not fit into my life right now, so I am contented with simply helping out others the best I can with what advice I can offer, and living vicariously through them when it comes to the excitement of breeding.

I just don't understand the feeling that just because you love bettas, that you should breed them. If you loved them, you would be rescuing the ones you see in those terrible craigslist ads, and on freecycle, and kijiji. 

At the end of the day, bettas are pets. Let them just be pets.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I just wanted opinions. Of course I see the difference (between petco and AB) and breeding petstore bettas isn't the best thing but like Adastra said...


> At the end of the day, bettas are pets. Let them just be pets.


And I do see a difference, Florida bettas, just messing with ya. Petstore cups are mean but my petsmart's cups are huger then others, the bettas are happy and clean and they dance so I didn't see a difference there... My petco is evil all the bettas had fin rot


> You say, you cant see the difference? Your telling me when you look on AB and then you go to petco you dont see a difference...


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## LoveSGSE (Aug 2, 2010)

I seriously think there's nothing wrong with breeding pet store bettas. Fine, maybe you think there's something wrong. Look at the Thailand breeders. A good pair, yet with a fry that's not what they want. Too small, cull. Not what they want, cull. No space, cull.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Culling is a necessary part of breeding no matter what species you work with. Sure it sucks to euthanize healthy fish but with fish dieing in pet stores every day there is just no possible way to adopt unfavorable fish to homes.


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

I just feed them to my fish in my 55 and 75 galon, At least it's the cycle of life. But it has to be done.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

I agree with many people on this thread. 

I feel that breeding is the same no matter what animal you choose.

Neat OFL! I had no idea that the origins of the HM lie in a petstore spawn! =] That's a really cool fact. =]

But I think that unless you're willing to work hard at it for years (like the HM line creator probably had to) with isolating the gene and so forth and so on, and making possibly thousands of undesirable fish that need to be culled in the meantime; that it's just better to spend the extra cash on an AB betta with the traits you want to begin with. =]

I think petstore fish can be bred. They just need to be bred responsibly and proper culling/euthanasia needs to take place. =] This way you can ensure that your breed has a home and if you find one with a trait you really like you can save it for another spawn. =]

I also agree with Adastra about breeding in general. If you don't have the cash or the time, then wait till you do to start breeding so that you can be sure to give them the best life they can have.

After all in the end we're talking about giving life. =] Make sure you're prepared and ready to take the responsibility if something doesn't go as planned.

For you in particular FP I suggest trying to find a betta club in your area. =] You might find awesome breeding stock for low prices at an auction. =]


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

The halfmoon did not start from a pet store betta, Here is a link if you want to know the fact's, instead of peoples opinions. some people say they still dont no where the long fin betta come from some say it was a mutation, some say it was them adapting to there inviorment, but here is the link where the half moon come from..

http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=1024


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

FloridaBettas239 said:


> The halfmoon did not start from a pet store betta, Here is a link if you want to know the fact's, instead of peoples opinions. some people say they still dont no where the long fin betta come from some say it was a mutation, some say it was them adapting to there inviorment, but here is the link where the half moon come from..
> 
> http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=1024


 I'm not arguing in this post just to be clear. =] I really respect you and your posts FB because you're a knowledgeable member of the IBC and you're really helpful! =] I just wanted to post what I got out of that article. =]



From what I've read of that article the halfmoon's roots are heavily planted in petstore bettas. 

"_*Delaval*_ was already an accomplished Guppy breeder, and several years before had decided to try his hand at bettas. _*He started with pet store fare, working the quality up to spec by selectively breeding the finest fish from his spawning attempts *__*in a very particular pattern: brother to sister, and then father to daughter, for several generations.*_ A peculiar feature of Delaval's line was that many of them had a white edge to their fins, a trait still seen in many Halfmoon bettas today. As the quality of Delaval's bettas increased, he began to realize he was on to something special, and worked even harder to perfect his 'ideal'. Working with only four tanks and about twenty jars, *Delaval bred hard and culled hard, keeping only the very best to continue the line*. "

"_*In 1988 Delaval then exhibited his fish at a show in LeMann, France. Although his fish were again overlooked in the judging, at least one fellow breeder was thunderstruck by what Delaval had been able to accomplish: Rajiv Masillamoni*._ Masillamoni had a habit of carrying with him at all times a photograph of Mr. G, which he showed to everyone at every betta event he was able to attend, enthusing about the perfection of the form and asking where he might acquire a fish of it's caliber. Needless to say, when he first laid eyes on Delaval's entries, which were even better in spread and symmetry than what he had dared to dream, the photo of Mr. G slipped forgotten from his fingertips. He immediately began drilling Delaval about his fish, _*and was able to purchase two of the three 180 degree caudal males that Delaval had brought with him to the show, as well as five other males and two females from the same line.*_ Masillamoni spirited his treasures back home to Switzerland, where he began breeding them with a passion. *To his shock and horror he came to realize that every one of the seven males he had purchased from Delaval were unable to spawn properly.*Although they would build a nest and court the female, they didn't seem able to perform the embrace and sire offspring. This didn't seem to be a fault of the form so much as a result of too much inbreeding, confirmed when Masillamoni consulted two other breeders who had acquired stock from Delaval -- Laurent Chenot and Marc Maurin -- who reported similar failures. Reduced to relying on the females alone, Masillamoni crossed them against pet store bettas, producing fish which were nowhere close to the quality of the original Delaval stock in either form or symmetry. When a stroke of bad luck killed one of the females, it seemed the entire venture would be doomed. _*However, Fortune was with Masillamoni and his project, and he was soon introduced to an American IBC member who happened to be visiting Switzerland and was able to give him a melano doubletail male from the Parris Jones line. Masillamoni bred the male to his one remaining Delaval female, and was rewarded with one fish that stood out from the rest. The fish was given the number 'R39', and was a green male with a perfect 180 degree caudal fin*_."

Desperate to continue the line, Masillamoni bred the fish with every female in his possession, and then teamed up with Laurent Chenot and breeder Jean Luc Corso, who bred him to their females as well. _*The offspring of these crosses formed the very foundation of the first true Halfmoon breeding line, and it can be reasonably stated that all Halfmoon fish today are descendants of this one male -- R39.*_"

The exact roots may not lie in petstore stock; but I think they were quite heavily dependent upon Delaval's petstore stock's genes. 

Because if not for Delaval's petstore stock's genes and his females that he gave away; Masillamoni wouldn't have had anything at all thus R-39 would not have come into existence.

Since the article states that all HMs are descendents of R-39, we wouldn't have any HMs if not for Delaval's original, selectively inbred petstore stock. 

At least that's what the article makes it sound like.

The point I'm trying to make and that I bolded near the top is that you have to breed and cull hard. You have to keep only the best of your mutation in order to keep it alive if you're dealing with petstore stock as there are other more dominant genes at play there that could eclipse the one you want to keep. 

Which is why Delaval inbred with his petstore stock so much. If he'd used fresh Petstore stock genes he would have erased his desired mutation. Since he had no access to other similar stock, he did what he had to.

I'm not arguing in this post just to be clear. =] I really respect you and your posts FB because you're a knowledgeable member of the IBC and you're really helpful! =] I just wanted to post what I got out of that article. =] 

Thought I'd put that in here twice because you've helped me a lot recently. =] Thank you for that! =]

Also I could have read it wrong. again this is just my take on it. =]


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

I understand all that but when he bred and made his betta, where do you think they come from? Not a pet store, either the wild or other breeder that were breeding and keeping betta. He didn't go to a pet store and buy a betta, Yes the halfmoon came from the VT and what ever else he was breeding back then.
Back then there was no pet store stock there were lower class pesants that were catching, fighting and breeding bettas and there were breeder's but not a pet store gene. Yes all pet store bettas or hafmoons came from this but when, how, who was bred to what this is the problems you run into with pet store bettas. that and it takes years and years of improvments and washing out color to get a decent betta like you would find a bettysplendens.... When you buy from a good breeder you can trace the root's of your fish back to great grandparents and so on you get to see the recessive gene's that your not seeing in the fish your buying and finage and so on.. I no that nobody is arguing, I am never closed minded, like i know it all. I love to learn new stuff everyday, this makes me a better fish and betta keeper..


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree that it takes years of breeding to get that perfect form and color. And yes it's easier to continue other breeder's line. But not everyone can afford a top quality fish. And if you know what you want and buy selectively, breeding pet store fish is fine. That is why I advise beginners to start with solid colors (it's easier to fix).

In the case of HM (I've only worked with HM's), the female is most important. She must be a super delta or a HM. Otherwise you will get many non HM. Asian breeders often cull over stock females so others can't produce that perfect form. They would sell the more rounded tail or the non symmetrical fin because these are considered as mutts (HM's are suppose to be symmetrical).

It is true that most pet store fish are "who cares what I produce" kind of fish. They don't select the 5000/week shipment. But I see many good quality pet store bettas in this forum which are (IMO) suitable for creating a line.



I am never closed minded said:


> Me too, and I've learned a great deal from everyone in this forum. Thank you all.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

FloridaBettas239 said:


> I no that nobody is arguing, I am never closed minded, like i know it all. I love to learn new stuff everyday, this makes me a better fish and betta keeper..


I know! =] I would never call you closed minded! =] I just wanted to make sure that I didn't offend you or anyone else browsing the thread. =] If I hadn't included that there was a chance someone could have found it offensive even though that wasn't my intention. Thus the clarification statement at the beginning and end.

As I said in my post I agree that it would take ages to get anything successful out of petstore stock and you'd have to do a lot of culling but it can be done! =] It's just easier starting out with more pure lines. =]


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## FloridaBettas239 (Jun 29, 2010)

If you are a IBC member and no the standards, and stayed with a solid color. Then breeding a pet store betta could be ok to breed pet store bettas, if you no what you looking for and no the ibc standards, but then again it's still going to take years and years to get them to bettysplendens type fish.


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