# Yellow Vanda HMPK x Chocolate Orange HMPK (Ginger Citrus Martini)



## Nimble

Howdy folks! I'm back with another spawn!

So, I've finally done it. I'm finally spawning a fish that I've raised myself from hatching.

The eggs hatched on the 18th of December, and they're past the 2 week stage now.

The male is an 8-ray Yellow Vanda HMPK (Asymmetrical Show Plakat) that I got in a trade.

The female is a 4-ray Chocolate (Brown-bodied) Orange HMPK (Asymmetrical Show Plakat), who is an F1 from my Snakeberry Punch spawn. If you'd like to read that, follow THIS link.

The purpose of this spawn is to enhance the finnage of this line from the male's superior fin form, as well as to work on creating Chocolate (Brown-bodied) Yellow fish. I doubt that I will achieve this goal in the F1, but in the F2 and subsequent cousin cross, I should be able to isolate the 'Chocolate' trait.

Here is a small album with pictures of the parents: http://imgur.com/a/3yMrV

There's about 8-12 fry in the tank, so I'll likely have to re-spawn the parents at a later date.

Keep your eyes out, I'll do my best to update regularly.

_*Ginger Citrus Martini:*
1 fl oz. Citrus Vodka
.5 fl oz. Orange Liqueur
1 fl oz. Ginger Liqueur
1 fl oz. Lemon Juice
1 fl oz. Lime Juice
1.5 fl oz. Simple Syrup (1:1 Sugar/Water syrup)

Shake thoroughly with ice, serve in either a chilled martini glass, or a tall glass over ice. Garnish with an orange twist.
_


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## BeautifulBettaFishies

Wow, really interesting goal. Can't wait to see how they turn out 
Ginger citrus martini? Sounds pretty ingenious now you say it, I gotta try that.

Subbing


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## Nimble

Chocolate Yellow Bettas are a rarity to find in HMPK form. I can't seem to find any, so I'll have to do it myself.

They're very, very useful as a blank canvas to breed to. All their traits are recessive, so it's easy to use one as a good base.

That's my goal, to establish a good line of solid-quality Bettas that other breeders can use to improve their own lines without too much trouble.


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## Sadist

I love your female! I hope she help you reach your goals.


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## BeautifulBettaFishies

That's a really well thought through goal and I love the idea that their genes are recessive, so as you say they should be perfect for other breeders.

I too second Sadist, your girl is gorgeous. 

I'm looking for girls for my sorority. However I'm trying to only put stock in I'd be happy to breed from in the future, so I may be inclined to buy one of your girls, if shipping wouldn't be too much and everything goes to plan for you.


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## Tropicalbetty

I concur your female is so lovely Congrats on being so successful and naming a martini after them. The drink sounds great. Sigh I really miss my little betta female


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## Nimble

Bad news!

A few of the fry in the tank are dragging their tails when they swim, which means that I've been overfeeding them on BBS. This is somewhat easy to do with such a small spawn. I'm reducing their rations, and I'm gonna start transitioning them Golden Pearls, as well.

Even more bad news. The spawn that was going to be cousins to this spawn has ended poorly. The Pineapple Yellow (Yellow with black scale-edges), female that was paired to a brother of THIS spawn's female. He killed her. I am not pleased. These fry will not have cousins anytime soon, which is disappointing for my future crosses... which I will have to rethink.


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## Tropicalbetty

OMG that is awful!! Sorry to hear this


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## Sadist




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## BeautifulBettaFishies

That sucks. Hope it wasn't painful for her, I'm sorry for your loss. Hopefully your line still works out.


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## Nimble

I was a little upset, and I still am, but for less sentimental reasons.

I really liked her because of her potential as a breeder. She had nicely shaped fins, even color, and a belly FULL of eggs. To see her potential destroyed in one... pardon my language... in one big ****-up of a spawn... it's frustrating and disappointing.

Because of this, I'm out TWO breeders. The female, and the male who killed her. I can't breed him, because of the potential risk to OTHER females that he poses.

Not to mention that I have to find a new, similar female on the market... and we all know that it's not always easy to find exactly what you're looking for in the Betta world.

Anyway... The fry are doing well. 3 weeks old as of 8 January, and progressing on schedule. A couple have specks of color in their caudals, and they're showing a lot more activity.

It seems to be no more than 8 fry in the tank, though I've only counted about 5 at one time. I have high hopes for these little ones... so hopefully they don't let me down like their Uncle (the now-unusable male) did.

[EDIT]
Huh... I didn't know the forum auto-censored swear-words. Good to know.


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## BeautifulBettaFishies

It's still really sad.  



Nimble said:


> Not to mention that I have to find a new, similar female on the market... and we all know that it's not always easy to find exactly what you're looking for in the Betta world.


Holy. Someone who understands my pain. I've been trying to find the perfect pair for god knows how long. It's VERY frustrating, you'll find one with the nice colour, but terrible form, or vice versa.

That's funny. I've always been careful because I didn't realise it censored either.


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## Sadist

It really is a tragedy. Maybe you can sell the male as a high quality pet to get the extra money for a good female if you find her.


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## Nimble

The male will be sold to the pet shop, along with the rest of his siblings that I'm not keeping for myself.


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## liamthen

So sorry to know this nimble, if this will make you feel better, in the course of late 30 days, i have 7 busted spawn ,5 from my favorite pairs, all those excitement...,3 males,2 females died...not good for mental health to think about it again haha.


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## Nimble

The little ones are doing well. There seems to be 6 in there, but there are probably one or two more that I couldn't count in there.

They're happily eating their BBS, and I'm trying to get them to eat Golden Pearls as well. I'm curious if they notice that the Golden Pearls are food or not, yet.

They'll be 4 weeks old this Friday, and I'm very happy that things seem to be going well. I should be getting a new male this Thursday or Friday, so hopefully I will have some half-siblings for these little ones in just a few weeks.


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## BeautifulBettaFishies

That's good news. Is he an import? Glad the fry are doing well.


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## Nimble

The new male I got yesterday I purchased from an American breeder. I have another one coming next week via import.

The fry are 4 weeks old today. Any swimming issues seem to have mostly fixed themselves on the reduced diet, so I'm quite pleased.

Already, I can see differences in some of them, with a few being darker than the others. Their father was Cambodian-based, and their mother was recessive for it, so I should get about 50/50 Dark vs Cambodian... in theory. It seems to be working out that way, but in small spawn sizes, numbers get skewed very easily.

A couple of them already have specks of red in their caudal. I'm curious to see how the colors turn out.


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## Sadist

Awesome!


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## Nimble

I just added 6 _Neocardinia heteropoda_ to the fry tank. 3 Cherry Shrimp, and 3 Yellow Fire Shrimp. They'll serve as a good cleanup crew to the messy tank bottom, and hopefully they'll reproduce and I'll have some more Cherry, Yellow Fire, and probably some Wild Type among them all.


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## Tropicalbetty

You seem to be an experienced breeder who knows what he's doing. Kudos


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## kittenfish

What do you mean by Vanda, the red spots? I've never heard that term before.


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## Nimble

Vanda is a term used in the world of Orchid Flowers to refer to patterns like that, classically referring to red speckles on a yellow base flower. This term was adopted by Betta breeders in Southeast Asia to refer to this specific type of pattern. Whether this trait is an adaptation of the 'Orange Dalmatian' spotting gene, or an example of a similar effect produced by a different genetic event, nobody is quite certain. The way the red spots express are different than your typical Dalmatian, with the red speckles being much smaller in size than the spots on an Orange Dalmatian.


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## kittenfish

Oh, interesting. So, including armageddon, that's now three variations of the yellow-with-spots phenotype?


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## Nimble

No. Armageddon is not related to Dalmatian or Vanda.

Armageddon refers specifically to expression of both red and yellow on the same fish, but not in the same way as Vanda or Dalmatian.

Almost all Armageddon fish come out of marble stock, so please do not confuse them with the effects of the Dalmatian gene.


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## Nimble

So, I've gotten a count of the fry, and I can confirm that there are 7, if not 8 fry in the tank.

One of whom has been cupped and whose cup is floating in the tank for the time being, as he's undergoing treatment for what may be an infection. He has a strange bubble-like cyst in front of his eye on one side of his face. If it is an infection, the medication (kanaplex) should take care of it shortly. If it's a deformity, and doesn't clear up soon, he'll have to be culled.

I'm hoping that it will clear up soon, as he is one of only two Dark Yellow fry in the batch.

All of the fry have developed hints color in their fins. At last count, I saw 2 Light-body Orange, 2 Light-body Yellow, 2 Dark-body Yellow, and one Dark-body Orange. I may be mis-remembering, though.


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## Nimble

It's time for another update!

The fry are 7 weeks old today, and doing very well. They're eating and growing heartily, and I'm very happy to see them all doing well.

The one fry with the bubble on his face has been removed from the tank altogether, so that I can observe him more readily. I'm not sure if he's going to outgrow the lump on his face, but I'm going to give him another few weeks before I make a decision to cull him or not.


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## Tropicalbetty

Good to hear their doing so well. Love the updates


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## Nimble

I'll have to get some pictures some time eventually, and I'll do my best to get that done.


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## Tropicalbetty

Yes pics would be great to see!!


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## PutYourBestFinForward

I wouldn't cull a fry unless their deformity inhibits them in any way, but the cyst sounds to me like a regular infection, shouldn't be too much of a problem.


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## Nimble

If it's a deformity, then that means I don't want to keep the fish to breed, and if it's a particularly bad deformity, it won't sell. 

It's a sad fact of the hobby.


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## theburningstars

Hope everything goes well with your fry! Love the colors of the parents, and I'm sorry to hear about the other pair.


I got here because I was searching for a term for the coloration of my VT. Vanda seemed to suit him. He's in my avatar as well as here -- was wondering if you would consider him a Vanda?


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## Nimble

So, the little ones are doing well, as far as all can be seen.

Out of two dark-bodied Yellows, one is on my shelf being observed for his physical deformity, and the other seems to be the biggest in the tank. The one still in the tank seems to be a male, judging by his long ventral fins, so I'm quite pleased with this. I just have to hope that one of his dark-bodied Orange siblings is a female, and has good form, so that I can get a good sibling cross out of this.



theburningstars said:


> I got here because I was searching for a term for the coloration of my VT. Vanda seemed to suit him. He's in my avatar as well as here -- was wondering if you would consider him a Vanda?


It's a possibility, I suppose. If he's yellow with red speckles in his tail, then it's entirely possible he is a 'Vanda'.


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## Tropicalbetty

Great Update!!


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## Nimble

Heh, thanks.

There's one other Yellow fry in the tank, a big, Cambdian-based Yellow who seems to be just barely a touch smaller than the big Dark Yellow. Everyone else seems to be Orange; 2 Dark Orange, and 2 Cambodian Orange.


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## Sadist

I hope one of those siblings is female for your cross!


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## Nimble

Everyone has been jarred today. All six of the remaining fry in the tank have been moved to the middle shelf on my rack, so that I can watch their progress.

Two Cambodian Oranges, two Dark Orange, one Cambodian Yellow, and one Dark Yellow are progressing on schedule. 

The disfigured fry's deformity has not gotten any better, and they are lagging behind their siblings by a few weeks. I'm not sure I want to bring this one to adulthood.

With this group all separated, I now have an available tank for another spawn. I'll be pairing the mother of this fry to a Chocolate-Body Yellow Bi-Color male that I managed to get from an American breeder. He's got a fair bit of what looks to be Steel iridescence, but that can be bred away in a cross between half-siblings.

Wish me luck!


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## Sadist

Good luck! I hope everything goes well!


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## BeautifulBettaFishies

That's a shame about the deformed fry. Is it an infection or deformity? 

I saw the most deformed girl at my LFS the other day. She was much thinner than the other girls and her mouth couldn't close. It was permanently stuck in an "o" shape. I felt so sorry for her but I hadn't got a suitable place for her. If it was making her have a bad QOL, then maybe she should of been culled :/

Good luck! Hopefully this one proves successful towards your goal ^^


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## Nimble

BeautifulBettaFishies said:


> That's a shame about the deformed fry. Is it an infection or deformity?


It was a deformity, I'm fairly certain. The fry showed no signs of illness, so I made the appropriate decision and put him down.

Pairing this group's mother to a new male didn't go so hot. She got a bit shredded up, and I didn't even get any eggs for the trouble. I'll try them again in a few weeks, but I might have to find a new Chocolate Yellow male to spawn her to, in order to get my goals back on track.

In other news, all 6 of the remaining fry are doing very well, and I've been able to sex the two Yellow fry. 
The Dark Yellow fry seems to be a male, with the slanted anal finand long ventrals. 
The Cambodian Yellow fry seems to be a female, as her anal fin has almost no slope at all, and she has shorter ventral fins, and a rounder middle.

As for the Orange fry, I can't quite tell yet. They're not so big as their Tellow siblings, but they'll be sure to catch up in time.


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## Sadist

I hope the female heals up nicely, and good luck with the retry!


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## Nimble

She should be up and ready in a couple of weeks. Hopefully by then, I should have that new DT-geno male from Zhylis that she is saving for me. If he's big enough, I can pair him to my big fat orange female, and cross some half-siblings to hopefully get more chocolates.

Speaking of, I should keep in touch with Zhylis about that. Let her know when to send the male to me.


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## Nimble

The six fry are all doing very well.

The two yellows are both still leading the pack in terms of growth. The Cambodian Yellow female is rounding out in the tummy, and her fin shape is distinctly feminine. In another 10 weeks, I have a feeling she'll be finding herself in the spawning tank with one of many suitors.

The Dark Yellow male is turning out rather nicely as well. His topline is very nice, and his ventrals are beautiful and sharp... if only his caudal point was more of a point. Still, I have high hopes for him, and expect that he'll make one of his sisters very happy.

The quartet of Orange fry are all looking rather splendid. Three of them look like females, and the remaining one is very ambiguous, though I am leaning towards male due to his ventral fins. Time will tell, though.

They've had a treat of frozen bloodworms today, and tummies are nice and round.

Their mother, who has been named 'Grand Marnier' for her color, is recovering nicely after a failed date. I have a new male coming through the mail as we speak, so hopefully in a week or two, I'll have half-siblings for these little rascals to pair with.

Wish me luck.


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## Sadist

Good luck!


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## SusieG

We need pictures of these! They sound so cool!!


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## Nimble

Working on those right now.


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## Nimble

Sorry about the lack of pictures. It turned out my new phone doesn't allow for me to take screenshots from videos I've taken... so, instead, a small update.

I have the mother of these fry in the spawn tank with an Cambodian-based Super Orange male that I got from Zhylis. He's got a nice, broad dorsal fin, so I'm hoping he's a recessive carrier for DT. If that's the case, I'll get 50% recessive carriers from this spawn, and should be able to do a sibling cross to get some DTPK Oranges, and hopefully some Chocolate Oranges from it as well. Theoretically, at least.

I'm hoping that this spawn goes well, because otherwise it'd be the third in a row of duds.


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## SusieG

Oh no! No screen shots??? That's how I get 90% of my photos! I think another new phone is in order  

Question if it's ok? I'm seeing a lot of broad dorsals in my spawn as well. I have no clue what the parents genes are except marble HMPK lol if I breed two siblings, is that when/how I could get DTPK? Or would be it from breeding the f2 babies? I would love some DTPKs!


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## Nimble

Very broad dorsal fins are usually an indicator of a recessive Double-Tail gene. If you breed two fish that are recessive for Double-Tail, around 25% of the fry should be Double-Tails.

The exact numbers, of course, depend on size of your spawn.


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## Zhylis

I can sneak in some photos for the male half of the equation ;-)

*M1 @ ~3 months (Dance, baby, dance!)*









*M1 (back) VS M2 (front) - orange orange VS blood orange
*









*M1 @ 4 months
*


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## Sadist

Wow, look at that dorsal! I think you can definitely get some double tails down the line. How exciting! I love the little beard.


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## SusieG

Thank you for the info! Maybe we can both get DTs!!


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## Nimble

Well, it's been long enough, and again there were no eggs when I woke up this morning. I separated the pair, and heaved a displeased sigh.

Maybe it's for the best, anyway. I just found out that I'll be having to move some time within 3-5 months, so it's best I don't have any young fry during this time.


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## Nimble

Sit tight, boys and girls. More to come from this thread in the future.

I'm back in business!


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## Nimble

Alright! We're back, folks!

It's been a year and a half since I posted anything meaningful, so here's an update!

A few days ago, I put the last two surviving fry from this spawn into the spawn tank together, and was rewarded with a small nest of eggs.

The male of this pairing was a HMPK Chocolate Yellow Vanda (Yellow fins with Red speckles).
The female was a HMPK Chocolate Orange.

I'll put up some pictures in a few days, once I have a free moment that isn't taken up by school.
The eggs hatched yesterday morning, so they should be free swimming between this afternoon and tomorrow morning.


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## Nimble

Little ones were free-swimming this morning. I was able to safely remove their Dad from the tank, but not without him taking a mouthful of fry with him. I must have removed 6 fry from his cup with a turkey baster after I transferred him.

They're all more-or-less getting the hang of swimming... some of them are better at it than others, though.

They're all happily eating vinegar eels, and after the long weekend is over, I'll start mixing in some BBS.

I took a nice video of a few fry today, which I posted to Facebook. I'll upload it to YouTube tomorrow, and post it here for you all to see.


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## Nimble

Update!

The baby brine shrimp hatchery hatched the BBS a little faster than I expected, so I was able to give my little six(?) remaining fry a small snack of BBS to go along with their morning vinegar eels.

I also have a video for you!
The video is from a few days ago, and it's just of one singular fry. Hard to get good footage of multiple fry with such a small spawn number.






In addition, I'm feeding up my fish on bloodworms for another spawn. I'm currently trying to decide on which pair will wind up being put in the next spawn tub. I could re-spawn this pair, and have a larger pool of fry to pick from... or I could pair the male with a different female and get half-siblings.


Speaking of male and female, here's the parents!

Male: The male of this F2 takes very much after his father with the Yellow Vanda pattern, but with his mother's dark chocolate body. He's been my favorite of this spawn since he first colored up.


























Female: The female is almost a perfect replica of her mother. She has Turquoise irids rather than Royal Blue, and is not quite as large or as dark as her mother was, but she's still gorgeous.


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## ThatFishThough

Stunning fish, but I had to notice that the F2 male looks very spoon spoon-headed. Is that the way the bag is or is he actually that 'bad'? It doesn't look too extreme but enough to notice.


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## Nimble

ThatFishThough said:


> Stunning fish, but I had to notice that the F2 male looks very spoon spoon-headed. Is that the way the bag is or is he actually that 'bad'? It doesn't look too extreme but enough to notice.



He does have a little bit of a convex curve to his head, unfortunately.

It is one of the traits I'm keeping in mind to offset when selecting females to pair with him. His sister has a nice convex head shape to counteract this, as does the other female I paired him with for the upcoming half-siblings.


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## Nimble

Speaking of half-siblings, the father of this F2 has his fins full with a quite-full nest of fry from a Black (Lace?) female of mine. She produced many more eggs than this F2 pairing did, so my Vanda male is having a little bit of trouble keeping track of what looks to be somewhere around 40 fry. Possibly more.

As for these one-week olds, I feel like I'm down to only a few. Over the last few days, I've seen no more than two at any one time, which leads me to believe that these two might be the only survivors remaining.
I had some sort fungus in the tank during their first few days, which is what brought me down to six or fewer between the 31st and the 3rd. I dosed Kanaplex to stave off velvet or whatever else it could be, and I'm assuming that those four that didn't make it just weren't able to thrive.

I'll re-spawn this F2 pair in a month or so, probably... for now, I think I'll have plenty to keep me busy with the half-siblings. I need to prepare more vinegar eels. D:


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## Nimble

Not much to update about today.

The remaining two survivors are doing well, eating BBS and growing mostly on schedule.

Their half-siblings are healthy and numerous, with more in there than I can count. My initial estimate of 40 was off, and now I'm guessing I have somewhere around 60 of them in there. So many hungry little mouths to feed... I love it! Some of them are already eating newly hatched BBS, along with the vinegar eels I'm feeding them as well.


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## Nimble

Moved the remaining two survivors into a 10g tank with about 45 of their half-siblings. I realize that this means that I won't know who is who until they color up.
If I wind up getting a bunch of reds, and two little yellows or oranges in there, I'll know who is who. If I get a bunch of yellows and oranges, then I'll just give up on differentiating them, and just re-spawn the parents.

Gotta get going on the other spawn log, now, huh?


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## Nimble

Figured that I should probably go ahead and do an update on this page as well.

The fry that survived this spawn are doing fairly well in with their half-siblings. So far, I can only tell one of them apart from the others, so I'm going to assume that both of them are still alive.

The obviously half-sibling fry is completely light bodied, casting a stark contrast to the dark-bodied half-siblings around them. At five weeks old, she (going to assume female, even though it's too early to tell) is among the biggest fry in the tank, with only the biggest of her half-siblings matching her. She's completely pale, with her eyes reflecting silver rather than the bronze-color of her siblings. She's beginning to develop what I'm assuming is yellow on her fins, but with her light body color, it's hard to tell.

She's healthy and has a good appetite, which has allowed her to keep pace with her half-siblings... plus the extra week of age is helping too.


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## Nimble

Here's a video of said surviving fry.


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## Nimble

It's been a little while since I posted in this thread.

As I mentioned in the half-sibling spawn thread, my last remaining fry from this pairing succumbed to some kind of illness or tank aggression over the last week.

Not to be discouraged, I have the male and female back in the spawn tank, and they're courting at this moment. I'll release the female some time this evening before bed, and hope for the best for a nest.
With any luck, it'll be a bigger spawn than last time, and I'll have plenty of fry to work with in the next generation.


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## angeliza

I'm sorry to hear about the fry...but second times the charm! Best of luck to you.^^


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## Nimble

Today, I came home from classes, dropped my backpack in my bedroom, and went to check on my fish.

When I looked at the rack, I didn't see my orange female in her cup... maybe she was hiding near the bottom.
Nope.

Crap, she jumped. She'd never been a jumper before, but all the energy after spawning must have pushed her to jump.
Well, let's look for her.

I go to move, and I feel something under my shoe.
Guess what I found.

There she was, dried up and squashed under my foot. She'd been out of water for a couple of hours at least, judging from how desiccated she was.
I really hope there's some eggs/fry hiding in the spawn tub. I saw them wrap, and I saw eggs, but nothing in the nest that I saw this morning.
I really hope there's some eggs hiding, or else there may not be a continuation of this spawn.

In any case, now I HAVE to wait until I get a new female to re-spawn my Chocolate Vanda male.


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