# stop domesticated betta aggression?



## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

*I was just on another thread call Natural breeding and she/he -(sorry i dont want to just assume)- said is there a way that you can have a natural spawning, and i was just thinking no because they were bred captive and they do not have the same environment to actually have a natural spawn.

Then again i looked at the responses and also thought about it a little harder, then i thought what if there were a way that you could somehow change the nature of the average DOMESTICATED-(pet store bettas)?

I know i know, it sounds really impossible, but what if there was a way to stop it and maybe, just maybe they could (dont hate me 4 this) but just live together in peace.

No way will i ever think of putting them together now. if there was a way then i think it would take up to months or years just for your betta to accept another peacefully.

wouldn't you guys and gals love that?

personally i thin there is a way.

do any of you think there (COULD) be a way or is it still impossible to you?*


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## Aven (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes I would think that is possible, through breeding selectivley. And yes, it would take years (if it were possible at all) to make a "new species" of Betta who could tolerate each other. This is just my thinking anyways and could be wrong.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I love the thought but then they would really be unnatural. I wish that they were less aggressive like in the wild. It would be awesome, but....


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

true. remember this is just opinions so there is no right or wrong answers


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## Little Marlin (Jul 4, 2010)

i would love that! i could have two boys in peace!:-D


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I know. I love the bettas aggressive personalities because if they weren't meant to fight they wouldn't flare and maybe be less colorful but that is JMO. I love them the way they are but it would be awesome if they never fight


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

i wish they would never fight but they would still flare to flirt and display.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

me too


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## Amour (Jun 26, 2010)

Wow. I never thought I'd see a topic like this.

It would take millions of years to change their behavior.
It took millions of years to make them what they are today.

Being aggressive is their nature. And changing that would be changing something that happens in nature in all sorts of species.

Lions, Peacocks, Bettas, Turkeys, the list goes on and on. Don't you know why male bettas are so pretty? They have to impress the ladies. Just like so many other species.

And like all those other animals, the biggest, prettiest, and strongest betta always gets the girls.

It's what makes bettas so interesting compared to other fish. I like seeing my bettas get all sassy and strut their 'stuff'. Their whole body language changes when they meet another betta.

That's what makes them fun!


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

Amour said:


> Wow. I never thought I'd see a topic like this.
> 
> It would take millions of years to change their behavior.
> It took millions of years to make them what they are today.
> ...


 Well said.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Well said! I ag*ee (so**y my r isn't wo*king.)


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

This is actually entirely possible, and I would think that it wouldn't take but a few years if done properly and through a scientific approach.

I forgot the name of the scientist who first showed a live example of this through the use of wild wolf/foxes in alaska. The species was incredibly aggressive and responded with nothing less then that. Through 8 years of selective breeding though, he was able to domesticate the canine with incredibly small effort.

Other then the basics though I don't remember much else of the research... and if this could apply to fish. I believe it would be amazing to see, whats MORE amazing in my mind is I thought I bringing this topic up 2 days ago! Lol but I thought I was to new to the forums to be budging up such topics, heh...


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

No no no.

Being aggressive is the entire reason we have the bettas we have today. It would be a disservice to the fish to try to take away what makes them special.

I've said it a thousand times.. if you want to keep colorful long finned fish together in a group GET GUPPIES. 

Being aggressive is what makes bettas special. Its their tenacity that made us all fall in love with them. Taking that away just for personal gain would be wrong IMO.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I agree. If you want them to stop fighting, you really need guppies.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

frogipoi said:


> I agree. If you want them to stop fighting, you really need guppies.


i see and also i already have guppies they are beautiful but not as unique as bettas. i guess that their true nature IS and SHOULD always be the aggressiveness that they have and thats what makes them entirely different than other fish. i think they should stay the way they are.

the reason i was thinking about this was because i was reading an article about them before they were aggressive. and i found the most interesting thing in the world IMO, it said that in Thailand-where bettas originated-bettas actually lived together in peace before the people from thialand started trying to fight them for profit and it took almost 86 years just to get a betta to nip at another. after that, their nature was changed and now that chain was broken and made the aggressive betta fry be born.

but it was just a thought


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

The bettas we have now are nothing like the bettas that can be housed together. Google wild type bettas and you'll see they are no where near as colorful as the domesticated splendens. Most people who want a mild betta go for wild types.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

now i see and think tht they should be kept the way they are because this is one of tthe personality traits that we all love and would do a lot to keep its what makes them different and ive always thought that different is good and should be accepted !!!


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## SilverCaracal (May 9, 2010)

Bettas wouldn't be bettas if they weren't aggressive IMO...


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## XSprinkleFaceX (Nov 17, 2009)

As much as I would love that I dont think it can happen. Its a bettas natural instinct to attack another betta, i dont think its a breeding trait that you can remove with selective breeding like a tail or a colour pattern. 

But than again im not a scientist...what do I know. Now-a-days anything is possible.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

*Shrugs* I love my betta fish riddle, its not so much because of the aggression(of course that always adds to the personality of the fish itself). Betta fish, to myself, have always resembled strength, but I couldn't imagine that persona being ruined by a lack of aggression. Who knows! lol

Although, it a dream world, it would also be awesome to have betta fish that could fly too... Think that might be possible to selectively breed for? ;


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

This level of aggression was selectively bred in, therefore it can be bred out. But at what cost? Whether its ethical or not is debatable. IMO if you want a betta that can be housed together go for a wild type. 

There are so many types of beautiful fish that can coexist happily together. I just don't understand why someone would want to take a species that is aggressive and try to go against its nature instead of simply choosing a different fish.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

SilverCaracal said:


> Bettas wouldn't be bettas if they weren't aggressive IMO...


you got it right on the dot!!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> This level of aggression was selectively bred in, therefore it can be bred out. But at what cost? Whether its ethical or not is debatable. IMO if you want a betta that can be housed together go for a wild type.
> 
> There are so many types of beautiful fish that can coexist happily together. I just don't understand why someone would want to take a species that is aggressive and try to go against its nature instead of simply choosing a different fish.


no no no you got me wrong this was just a thought i dont actually want to change its nature i wanted to know if it was possible.

and im pretty sure it is possible and again it was just a thought. i know that there are a lot of types of beautiful fish that can coexist happily together, its just they are so interesting i would not be able to just forget about them and choose another fish, i want to learn as much and more than i possibly can and maybe from months or even years of experience i could find out more than some has ever done before. this is the reason i chose fish for my pet than a normal child would do. a normal child would want something bigger and as a child they would want something that they can play with, so they would choose a puppy or a kitten. i for 1 think that fish are much more smarter and more complex than any other species of animal there is. 

just think fish have been around since before the dinosaurs and might even pass their existence far far more millenniums than our generation of existence. fish are so much more unique than any animal in the world. and thats a FACT. they have much more to them than living in a tank of water and swimming around. they are capable of so much and they are put down by ignorance and sometimes cruelty as other animals have been through. just because we are bigger than them doesnt mean that we have to be cruel to a species of fish that are aggressive and dangerous. just because we can destroy them doesnt me we HAVE TO! for ex. sharks, sharks are very aggressive as all of you know and could kill someone in the blink of an eye. have you noticed that THESE MEAN "KILLING MACHINES" NEVER DO ANYTHING TO HARM US ***FIRST***?

THE KEYWORD IS FIRST. we always have to interrupt them and their environment before they attack. people dont understand that we are the INTRUDERS they wont even dare come on land and intrude. we are the daredevils that go into the water -which is where they live- and do whatever the heck we want. and if they try to protect what they have most of them get killed because we WANT to do something. 

dont get me wrong here im so glad that we have all the info that we have im just saying SPARE THE LOSSES OF THE SHARKS AND OTHER SEA LIFE ANIMALS BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE FAMILY AND THEY ALL HAVE A HEART AND BRAIN LIKE US.

there i think ive made my point


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## Amour (Jun 26, 2010)

Kokonoko said:


> This is actually entirely possible, and I would think that it wouldn't take but a few years if done properly and through a scientific approach.
> 
> I forgot the name of the scientist who first showed a live example of this through the use of wild wolf/foxes in alaska. The species was incredibly aggressive and responded with nothing less then that. Through 8 years of selective breeding though, he was able to domesticate the canine with incredibly small effort.
> 
> Other then the basics though I don't remember much else of the research... and if this could apply to fish. I believe it would be amazing to see, whats MORE amazing in my mind is I thought I bringing this topic up 2 days ago! Lol but I thought I was to new to the forums to be budging up such topics, heh...


Actually, those poor foxes aren't very domesticated at all. I did research because I wanted to get one and found out that they're still very wild and keep most of their natural instincts. Many people have problems with them escaping because they're so wild. It's actually really cruel to keep those poor foxes as pets.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Erm, well... I still say that we should breed them to fly...I mean... I'm just saying... ;P lol


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Boys in the wild still fight but don't kill each other if the have enough room


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## LoveSGSE (Aug 2, 2010)

Its possible. But I really like them the way they are now. Its what makes them special. They have "attitude".


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Can I change my vote XD Attitude is awesome


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## Aven (Jul 30, 2010)

I think people are misunderstanding this topic. We're not going to change the ENTIRE species, and not trying to go against their nature. By selective breesing, you can start a NEW species, youre right, they wont be Betta Splendens. Theyll be Betta Domesticus.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

t will take years to do it and it would be awesome but bettas are quite awesome the way they are. I want to vote for a new place, start a new species. Sounds better.


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## Adastra (Jun 18, 2010)

I agree that bettas wouldn't be bettas if they didn't have the aggression that they have. It gives them the spunk and the desire to display that we all love, as well as their personality. Passive bettas would never flare. 

Bettas in the wild, even wild splendens and imbellis are not as aggressive as domesticated betta splendens because for the past 700 years, they have been selectively bred for aggression. The colors, patterns and tail types are a fairly recent development. Deltas and halfmoons didn't even appear until the early 80s, before that, the roundtail was the subject of betta shows. 

However, even with the aggression out of the betta, bettas are still solitary animals. They are not a social species and either way, I don't think it would really be right to throw a bunch of males together and impose a social situation on them. Also, consider what would go into this kind of enterprise--inevitably quite a few males would probably be seriously injured or die to test the aggression level of the fish. Even if you don't allow the fish to cohabitate--the stress of constant exposure to other males is too much for some fish. 

There are plenty of other beautiful fish that are social, but still have aggressive characteristics and can be kept in a group. Cichlids, for instance, there are many beautiful cichlids with lots of personality that can be social and still show a lot of spunk. There are also many varieties of wild bettas that are beautiful in their own way.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Guess it could be understood as ice cream...

Some people love thier ice cream in its original form. Others found that they liked it blended together with more milk, thus making it a smoothie... <.< In its entirty though, it still was ice cream, just of a diffirent nature.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

frogipoi said:


> t will take years to do it and it would be awesome but bettas are quite awesome the way they are. I want to vote for a new place, start a new species. Sounds better.


yea i guess so


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

Any way flaring would be not used so if you want bettas without fighting just get guppies, we shouldn't change the current species just breed a new one. It would be hard. Why don't you try?


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

frogipoi said:


> Any way flaring would be not used so if you want bettas without fighting just get guppies, we shouldn't change the current species just breed a new one. It would be hard. Why don't you try?


its not as easy as it sounds. what do you mean by "just breed a new one? i wouldnt know how to start


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

you'd have to be a hard-core breeder for that to happen anyhow -.- I think the amount of work it would take to breed a new species of betta would be to intense for any sane person to undertake. To...much...work...ugh...

Flaring could still be used for mating purposes, just like peacocks?


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kokonoko said:


> you'd have to be a hard-core breeder for that to happen anyhow -.- I think the amount of work it would take to breed a new species of betta would be to intense for any sane person to undertake. To...much...work...ugh...
> 
> Flaring could still be used for mating purposes, just like peacocks?


haha yea sounds good but you do understand that you compared a fish to a bird a complete opposite lan and water animal lol just a little funny i thought


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Yea I do realize that XD and I did when I made the post lol It was just the first thing that appeared in my mind when thinking of "animals that flare things" xD

I guess I'll have to think of better comparisons, aye? lol


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

haha lol yea i guess so


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I say it would be awesome, but I like the way they are.


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## XSprinkleFaceX (Nov 17, 2009)

Imagine having a school of male betta fish  lol i just pictured it in my head and it looked funny.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

yes true!!!


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## bloo97 (Mar 6, 2010)

That would be cool, a school of males.


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## Wildfire (Aug 6, 2010)

That would be GORGEOUS. I wouldn't be able to stop staring at my tank, lol.


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## StarWalkZ (Jul 21, 2009)

Amour said:


> Wow. I never thought I'd see a topic like this.
> 
> It would take millions of years to change their behavior.
> It took millions of years to make them what they are today.
> ...


 i agree with you!


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Wildfire said:


> That would be GORGEOUS. I wouldn't be able to stop staring at my tank, lol.


i know right they are so beautiful and amazing it will be like your own rainbow in a tank lol


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## Phoxly (Jun 14, 2010)

Has anyone even tried putting 7-9 males in a tank just to see if they mellow out like females do? I know thats horrible but what if it worked lol.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Phoxly said:


> Has anyone even tried putting 7-9 males in a tank just to see if they mellow out like females do? I know thats horrible but what if it worked lol.


no and i dont blame you for being curious!! also i dont think i want to try it

what about you?


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## Josiee (Jul 29, 2010)

We have a saying here in the UK...

"If it aint broke, don't fix it"


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## betta fish crazy (Jul 9, 2010)

It would look wierd to have a school.
Bettas aren't bettas if they aren't fiesty!


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## Phoxly (Jun 14, 2010)

Yeah they'd be boring if they weren't fiesty. Honestly part of the reason I picked my betta over the 10 others I was thinking of was cause he was the most feisty lol. I put their cups side by side to see if he would flare and he did every time. (I figured the ones who didn't flare were probably sick.)


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I picked mine cause he acted like a lady lol.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

frogipoi said:


> I picked mine cause he acted like a lady lol.


thats weird


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Heres how this works. When a spawn of bettas remains in a large tank together they live pretty peacefully. Yes males and females together (like lets say 25 males and 25 females) but they have to be siblings.


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Here, here Josiee!!! I agree 100%


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

MrVampire181 said:


> Heres how this works. When a spawn of bettas remains in a large tank together they live pretty peacefully. Yes males and females together (like lets say 25 males and 25 females) but they have to be siblings.


yes i was reading about this. that the males and females would live together in peace (but only if they were siblings.)


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

That is not always necessarily the case. Even fish who have been raised together can become territorial ESPECIALLY if they want to spawn and there are members of the same sex that they have to fight with to establish dominance.

Honestly I'm surprised at all the people voting yes. Betta splendens who could live happily together would not be Betta splendens. It would take YEARS of very specific breeding after which you might also loose some of the qualities you like (like fin color, fin length, etc).


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

It was weird. My crazy dopey betta.
Yeah. It will take years for trying to breed a betta that will live with others in peace.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> That is not always necessarily the case. Even fish who have been raised together can become territorial ESPECIALLY if they want to spawn and there are members of the same sex that they have to fight with to establish dominance.
> 
> Honestly I'm surprised at all the people voting yes. Betta splendens who could live happily together would not be Betta splendens. It would take YEARS of very specific breeding after which you might also loose some of the qualities you like (like fin color, fin length, etc).


yes your right but i have to disagree with you. I personally dont think that some of the good qualities will be loss because all you are doing is changing its nature and i know that that sounds really selfish and ignorant. just think about it having a bunch of bettas all together, but i guess its my opinion and is kind of cool. ALTHOUGH, i still think that these wonderful interesting type of fish should not be changed because they are amazing and interesting just the way they are.


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

Its just personal prefference. Disregarding it would no longer be betta splendens specifically, it would still retaint he color and fins hapes that the previous species had, just without the agression. Morally I don't see anything arguementative about this -.-; Nor ethically.

Betta Splendens would still remain agressive, the new species would not. Two entirely diffirent species for two entirely diffirent preference. That seems like a equal and unbalnced world to me o.o


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kokonoko said:


> Its just personal prefference. Disregarding it would no longer be betta splendens specifically, it would still retaint he color and fins hapes that the previous species had, just without the agression. Morally I don't see anything arguementative about this -.-; Nor ethically.
> 
> Betta Splendens would still remain agressive, the new species would not. Two entirely diffirent species for two entirely diffirent preference. That seems like a equal and unbalnced world to me o.o


but how is thaT possible to have an equal AND unbalanced species??


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## 1fish2fish (Sep 10, 2009)

Its impossible to create a new species without losing some things and gaining others. Look at dogs. They originally descended from Wolves yet most dogs have very little of the looks and qualities of wolves.

I still don't understand the point. If you want long fins and bright colors there are guppies and gold fish and any other manner of fish that don't mind being together. That's just my opinion of course.

At any rate it would take hundreds of years to develop something like that.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> Its impossible to create a new species without losing some things and gaining others. Look at dogs. They originally descended from Wolves yet most dogs have very little of the looks and qualities of wolves.
> 
> I still don't understand the point. If you want long fins and bright colors there are guppies and gold fish and any other manner of fish that don't mind being together. That's just my opinion of course.
> 
> At any rate it would take hundreds of years to develop something like that.


yes i know what you mean but it was just a crazy thought i knew this would turn out as an argument but i just wanted to see your responses


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## Kokonoko (Jul 28, 2010)

1fish2fish said:


> Its impossible to create a new species without losing some things and gaining others. Look at dogs. They originally descended from Wolves yet most dogs have very little of the looks and qualities of wolves.
> 
> I still don't understand the point. If you want long fins and bright colors there are guppies and gold fish and any other manner of fish that don't mind being together. That's just my opinion of course.
> 
> At any rate it would take hundreds of years to develop something like that.


 
I like to debate, so please don't take this as anything outside of this arguement =)

But I find the excuse that," If you want colorful fish, why not get guppies" to be incredibly ignorant, and almost border-line blind. To say that guppies have very similiar characteristics outside of thier unique color pattern is to say that the moon also closely resembles the sun. Other then being spherical, the sun is far more superior in the aspect that it has rigid flares of fire. Albiet not the best metaphor the point should be clear. Guppies have no extravagent fins, and also contain an obvious physical diffirence from that of bettas; size, length, structure, fins, variety.

Its almost something to laugh at, that someone would try to compare something to another based off ONLY the similiar aspect of colors. To me, in a professional stand point, this is NOT a valid arguement. Trust me when I say I would bow to a plausible arguement.

Also, onto your comment of the time duration necessary to create this new breed... it would take as much time to create this new breed as it took to CREATE Splendens.

To bettalover, I apologize, this was a typo, what was ment was, "equal and balnced world to me". Not directed to anyone particular, but to the opposing party in total, it would be almost ignorant to deny the opposit existence for other owners to enjoy. Because group A sees this as 'unappeasing', group A shall not allow Group B to enjoy it? The word 'group' in this could almost be replaced witht he word child and would display this nature in its truest of form. Although, thats my extreme view on it, I understand that this isn't true, and that -no one- would force anything on anyone else, just brought that up as a visual of how childish that -could- look.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

I am lost. O-O I like the idea very much.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kokonoko said:


> I like to debate, so please don't take this as anything outside of this arguement =)
> 
> But I find the excuse that," If you want colorful fish, why not get guppies" to be incredibly ignorant, and almost border-line blind. To say that guppies have very similiar characteristics outside of thier unique color pattern is to say that the moon also closely resembles the sun. Other then being spherical, the sun is far more superior in the aspect that it has rigid flares of fire. Albiet not the best metaphor the point should be clear. Guppies have no extravagent fins, and also contain an obvious physical diffirence from that of bettas; size, length, structure, fins, variety.
> 
> ...




well said!!! your right we shouldnt turn this into any type of argument because this is a family friendly forum and kids shouldnt come on here and see a couple of childish people. If anything we should be setting examples. dont you think?

also about getting guppies if you want something friendly to co-exsist, guppies arent as interesting and dont have the same fins as bettafish. guppies dont have long flowing fins they just have colorful backfins.


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## frogipoi (Jul 3, 2010)

True, but I said get the wild ones. I think guppies are different too. Don;t be childish lol.


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## zelilaa (Jul 31, 2010)

Amour said:


> Wow. I never thought I'd see a topic like this.
> 
> It would take millions of years to change their behavior.
> It took millions of years to make them what they are today.
> ...



not millions! thats crazy. they have been breeding bettas for about 800 years... so if you started by mixing peaceful wild ones and colorful less agressive captive ones, you wouldnt take more then 100 years at MOST- not millions!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with sharing opinions as long as we respect each others' opinions, even if we don't agree with it.


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## purplemuffin (Aug 12, 2010)

I love bettas how they are, but it would be an interesting 'subspecies' of calmer bettas, if people were to pursue this. I doubt anyone would ever give up on the current fiesty ones, though!  So even if this were to someday happen, it's not like we'd lose our babies! Just maybe could have new ones! Interesting. Either way, I can understand why people would feel for or against it!


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## ForbiddenSecrets (Aug 15, 2010)

Personally I'd like them either way as long as what was being done wasn't 'harmful' to them. I love their feisty nature and I find it really endearing. If there was a line of them that could live together I'd find that rather cool too. *shrugs* I have no intention of attempting this but if it did exist I'm not sure how it would be bad for them to not want to rip each other to bits.


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