# Mycobacteria



## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

In light of the recent posts, and all the misinformation on the web and floating around in this forum, let me set a few records straight.

Mycos is nothing to be considered lightly. I have been in regular conversation with fish pathologists for almost a year now, and it is a very serious disease and in most of the fish available at your local pet shop. Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish. You need to read the article I have created at the link below, and take it very serious, as it is based on the research of people that look at mycos for a living:



I have friends that have dealt or are dealing with this. FROM ONE FREAKING FISH I destroyed 3 years of work, over 500 bettas in one afternoon. I could not even enter my fish room for days. I dealt with fin rot, lesions, lifted gill plates, dropsy and the list goes on. I finally contacted a fish pathologist and sent THIRTY fish representing every tank or system I had. The ones with lesions tested positive for mycos right off the lesions they presented.

ALL were diced up and tested and ALL tested positive for mycos. Fish from 30 days to 9 months of age. It was recommended I send more fish to the leading researcher in mycobacteria here in the US to determine the strain. They were unable to grow the bacteria to determine what strain I was dealing with and was told that is not unusual for many mycos strains. It took DNA to determine what I had. My results and currently what many betta breeders are dealing with is M. Triplex. Thats right.. something you have NOT heard of. Google it. And you will find it shows up in people.

If you read the article I posted you will see there are different types of mycos. Some move fast and others a bit slower. But the end result is THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE. Some mycos can be managed as there is no way to completely eradicate it. But you destroy the pathogenic ones and manage water conditions to reduce affect of the others.

I was told Lysol will kill it. Not knowing there were different Lysols I ran a major heavy solution through my barracks for TWO WEEKS. I drained that down, ran water through it a few days, drained it down and ran a super concentrated bleach solution through another TWO WEEKS. I brought the system back online and put some of my most promising fish in the barracks and EACH ONE CAME DOWN WITH THE DISEASE AGAIN! The ones still in the tank never got it. So DO NOT tell me you can bleach or use vinegar on this. DO NOT tell me it is not that serious. 

So once again I have had to destroy some absolutely beautiful fish. More discussion with the pathologists and we found I did not use a proper cleaner. I sure as heck do now. EVERYTHING.., nets, hoses, tanks, lights water test vials.. EVERYTHING gets hit with the anti TB chemical after EVERY use. My trash cans for water are broken down and sprayed every few weeks. Even my hands between tanks. I set a timer as there has to be 5 minutes contact time. I refuse to destroy any more fish. I have clean stock now and I am going to keep it that way.

In the meantime. My recommendations.. for all it is worth..

Get a hold of a local vet or go online and get something that will kill TB. The article I linked to has a link to chemicals that will kill mycobacteria. Treat EVERYTHING in your fish room no matter how small. And treat any tank with it when you break it down... sick fish or not. Keep the stuff on hand and act like it is ever present to get a foothold in your fish room. Practice good bio-security and you should prevent it or get rid of it. If you have sick fish - destroy them, nuke everything and start fresh being more careful.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah I agree. If it is mycobacteria it is best to cull. There's no 'giving them a chance' as there is no cure for it and it is inevitably fatal. Seen a few rainbowfish breeders run into issues with it and have to euthanise entire tanks full of fish, even the seemingly healthy ones. 

It can also be transmitted to humans and cause potentially serious problems. That alone for me would be enough to make me not want to have any infected fish in my fish room.


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## logisticsguy (Sep 7, 2012)

This is very important information here from an experienced breeder. 

Thank you Basement Bettas.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Hi. I have a fish with fin rot, a lifted gill plates. It's been like this for 2 weeks now and he's alive but seems to be BERY slowly recovering. Could this be myco? It came after I bred him


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

pictures please.. but this crap is going around. and as often as you buy and sell fish.. doubt you take any precautions.. good chance you have it. best to act like you do and take steps to get rid of it.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

and who ever you bred him too has been exposed not to mention the fry will have it if the parents do. or at least a huge chance of having it. Go read those articles...


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Okay. Not sure what it is as both o the females I've bred him to and the fry are okay. I really havnt taken precautions TBH I just havnt shared any water, no net sharing. Nothing that has come in contact with him has come in contact with others since I noticed the symptoms.. I'll get a pic soon. Could it be a less contagious and less harmful strain of Myco?


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Mo said:


> Could it be a less contagious and less harmful strain of Myco?


no such thing.. there are some that can be managed.. but they do not present like you are saying. Keep him separate and get a disinfectant that kills mycos. And use it. If you don't have it .. it will KEEP you from getting it. Lot of people dealing with this.. and just look at some of the recent .. my fish is sick.. photos. Mycos. Best to err on the side of caution..


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Thank you. I will PM pics of this fish now. So does Myco usually last that long?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

This is very important information that needs to be circulated BUT there are a few caveats that I want to add.

First, the majority of people on the forum don't have fish rooms or extensive (and expensive) breeding operations. For these people, the risk of contagion between fish is obviously minimal, especially if they have just the one fish. 

Secondly, without the same necropsy/autopsy tests and tissue samples, it is impossible to know what a sick fish at a pet store may have. Saying that is has mycobacterium without these tests is irresponsible.* Many people have purchased sick fish and successfully nursed them back to health, myself included. I think a lot of people would agree that many of the sick fish at a pet store are suffering from poor water conditions, not myco. Therefore, I won't condone discouraging people from buying sick fish if they want to attempt to nurse them back to health. The people who do this do so knowing full-well the fish is sick and knowing full-well it may die. The vast majority of people are not ignorantly buying sick fish. As long as people practice sanitary fishkeeping and avoid contamination, go for it.

Thirdly, this needs to be made clear: mycobacteria is the same bacteria that causes fish tuberculosis. HOWEVER, just because a fish is diagnosed with mycobacteria doesn't mean the fish has fish TB. The fish we have seen on the forum who have been affected do not exhibit the same symptoms as TB. 

Now that I've said that, again I want to say the information included is informative and well-put.


* Strictly speaking, yes, every fish has some small amount of mycobacterium, just as every fish has some small amount of every bacteria present. What I'm referring to is a potentially lethal outbreak of myco.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

callistra said:


> First off, I highly doubt you're going to get a thread stickied that is so unobjective.. saying things like people should stop bringing home sick pet store bettas (most are sick due to poor conditions they're kept in and they do NOT all have this condition like you seem to want to imply).
> 
> Calling people names like foolish..
> 
> ...


And you know MORE than the research pathologists that work on this disease?? Read the research papers attached to my article in bettasource. I is NOT ME but THEM that say there is no cure. It is what people that are researching the disease tell fish FARMS to do. Don't you think if there WAS a cure they would not tell people whos income depends on fish to KILL EVERYTHING? Where are your credentials or sources that say it IS curable? And they had better be scientist. I discussed AT LENGTH with Dr Whipps the misinformation on the web. You can take to warning and be careful.. or you can just live with the stuff.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

So sorry. This should be a sticky. And your story is why I will never use a recycled water system.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> This is very important information that needs to be circulated BUT there are a few caveats that I want to add.
> 
> First, the majority of people on the forum don't have fish rooms or extensive (and expensive) breeding operations. For these people, the risk of contagion between fish is obviously minimal, especially if they have just the one fish.
> 
> ...


The problem is we CURRENTLY have a strain that is VERY in the betta fish population. I saw it in petco and petsmart in several locations where I live. I watched it move though my fish room. It needs to be destroyed. It is VERY difficult to have it over here and keep it from getting over there. 

If you see the lesions you probably have m. triplex. If you have the fuzz and it doe not respond to columnaris type meds.. again.. mycos. You can go blindly down a path that MAY be destructive or you may actually take some precautions. 

Again.. if you have it.. it will live on your counters where you set your net, in your drains where you dump water.. in your tanks, gravel, snails.. I had mystery snails that just died for no reason. Cut them open and guess what... mycos granulomas. And if a sick fish in a cup is worth the risk.. knock your socks off. But for some this ACCURATE information will be heeded and they will reduce exposure or get rid of the crap. Even if one fish.. and it has mycos.. they still have it when they get the new fish without proper chemical to kill the stuff. Guess they can just use vinegar. Wonder why the scientist did not think of cleaning with vinegar and just adding some salt to the water.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

No matter who writes a paper, that paper still only represents one person's point of view. It's important to read a variety of material on a subject in order to get a balanced perspective. 

Let's calm down and stop the hysteria. As I said in a different thread, there's no need to start a panic over an epidemic that may not be occuring. As many of my fish disease books point out, a lot of diseases mimic each other. 

The bottom line is, even though I and other members do our best to knowledgeably diagnose other people's ill fish, our diagnoses are still almost always informed guesses. There can be no positive diagnosis for bacterial infections without expensive and complicated tests. Therefore, we can no more concretely say a fish has columnaris than we can say it has myco because we have no proof.

If there continues to be further heated debate, this thread will have to be closed and/or removed. Since it does contain good information, let's try not to have that happen.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

In nine years of fishkeeping, a 2 years of breeding, I have never seen a lethal case of myco/TB. IN fact, I have never seen a case at all. Most fish deaths and illnesses can widely be attributed more to poor ownership than a rare bacterial infection.

Mycobacteria are bacteria of the genus Mycobacterium that are widely distributed in nature. Only a few species of mycobacteria are pathogenic. For example, M. tuberculosis causes tuberculosis and M. leprae causes leprosy in humans. Other mycobacteria, such as M. marinum, M. fortuitum, M. chelonae, and the recently discovered M. chesapeakii and M. shotsii, can cause mycobacteriosis in fish. Mycobacteriosis is a chronic wasting disease in fish caused by infection with mycobacteria. Infected fish may be appear thin and sluggish. Other external signs, such as areas of redenning, fin rot, popeye and ulcers, may or may not be present. Internally, mycobacteriosis can cause white to grayish nodules called granulomas, primarily in the spleen, kidney and liver. Mycobacteria are slow growing, so it may take months to years for the disease to become clinical and cause problems to the fish. The immune system of healthy fish can fight off infection from most invading bacteria. However, stress can weaken the immune system and allow bacteria, including mycobacteria, to cause an infection. Stress can be caused by poor water quality, suboptimal nutrition, excessive handling and other disease entities. Bacterial infections can also occur when the immune system is overwhelmed by the number of invading bacteria, such as could occur at the site of an open wound. Infections are associated with persons coming in contact with infected water or fish. Persons most susceptible include those who are immuno-compromised and/or have open skin cuts or sores. Reports in the medical literature usually call these infections ‘swimming pool granuloma’ or ‘fish handler’s disease.’ Mycobacterium marinum is the most common aquatic species of mycobacteria that can be pathogenic to humans. Infection may appear as reddish bumps or nodules on extremities. Generally this infection will not spread throughout the body because the temperature of the trunk of the human body is usually too high for mycobacteria to thrive. The infection can usually be treated with a long duration antibiotic regime. (http://mybay.umd.edu/mycobacteria.html)

_Mycobacterium marinum_ (_M. marinum_) is a slow-growing atypical bacteria that is commonly found in bodies of fresh or saltwater in many parts of the world. Skin infections with _Mycobacterium marinum_ in humans are overall relatively uncommon and are usually acquired from contact with aquariums or fish. Most infections occur following skin exposure to the bacteria through a small cut or skin scrape. The first signs of infection with _M. marinum_ include a reddish or tan skin bump called a granuloma. Less commonly, a string or batch of the small reddish bumps crop up on the exposed body area in a classic pattern called sporotrichotic lymphangitis.
It is somewhat rare to acquire this infection from well-maintained swimming pools because of protection afforded by proper chlorination. _Mycobacterium marinum_ does not typically grow at normal body temperature. That is why it remains localized to the cooler skin surface. Overall, diagnosis and treatment of this unusual skin infection is often delayed because of a lack of suspicion for this atypical mycobacterial versus more common bacteria like Staphylococcus. (http://www.medicinenet.com/mycobacterium_marinum/article.htm)


SO IN SHORT, IF YOU TREAT YOUR TANK LIKE CARP AND DONT LEAN IT AND HAVE STRESSED FISH, YOU REALLY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THIS DISEASE.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I did read that article but I have to say, I'm confused. How can you tell if a fish is infected? How long does it stick around for before killing a fish? Since it seems like this mycobacteria causes every symptom under the sun that are common symptoms of other ailments, how do you know how many fish actually have it if they aren't all sent to labs?
It's how common? Sorry, I just don't understand all the scientific words and such.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That is what all of my disease books say, Dieses. Bacteria is ever present in our tanks but it's stressful factors like poor water quality that cause fish to succumb to that bacteria.

EDIT: Ayala, really, the only concrete way to tell if a fish is infected is to cut it open and search for the granulomas inside. Obviously, the fish has to be dead for this. Otherwise, there is no way to positively identify this disease just from looking.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Callistra, BasementBettas makes a very good point that unless your sources are research scientists, your point is completely invalid. And a fish with uncureable (yes, some strains are completely uncurable. Research scientists, not me.) mycobacterium should be euthanized regardless of what your heart says because one fishes death is well worth preventing a hundreds. and this thread is not aimed at creating mass hysteria, it is aimed at informing people about that disease that destroyed BasementBetta's fish. BasementBetta has scientists and many, many, many years of experience to back her up, you have the Internet and three fish. Well said BasementBettas.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I don't think it's actually that rare. I know it can a problem with rainbowfish. I think because sometimes the way it presents can differ from fish to fish, people may not be able to make a correct diagnosis. Some fish can be outwardly healthy but still infected. 

I think this is probably one of the more knowledgeable posts on a disease I have seen on this forum. Some of the posts on this section of the board have made me cringe with the amount of misinformation in them.

Also I don't believe in fish that TB is treatable. If it was people would not be euthanising tanks full of expensive and rare fish.


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## twolovers101 (Sep 17, 2012)

Just as a third party... this thread does seem rather panicked... yes it has good information, but what I worry about are people taking this and freaking out...


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> In nine years of fishkeeping, a 2 years of breeding, I have never seen a lethal case of myco/TB. IN fact, I have never seen a case at all. Most fish deaths and illnesses can widely be attributed more to poor ownership than a rare bacterial infection.


And I agree.. but there is this becoming a problem in many places. This is a warning to be careful and make sure the proper product is used to get rid of it or keep it out of your fish.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

twolovers101 said:


> Just as a third party... this thread does seem rather panicked... yes it has good information, but what I worry about are people taking this and freaking out...


It is not to freak out.. but to make sure you are practicing good bio security in your own fish room and make sure you are aware of the signs. Not everyone can send fish to a lab. So how is the average Joe to even begin to consider this if all they hear is resistant so and so. It IS real and as such need to have correct information out so people can make INFORMED decisions.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

probelm is bettas and Z-fish are more susceptible than others. And the major supplier of bettas to the shops has it. It is in most fish I see in my local area and they come from same place. Just be careful.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> And I agree.. but there is this becoming a problem in many places. This is a warning to be careful and make sure the proper product is used to get rid of it or keep it out of your fish.


The thing is, I take EXCELLENT care of my tanks. Most people with instances of fish TB are having cycling issues, or water quality issues, or don't take care of their tank. Yes, all fish have some form of Mycobacterium. Well taken care of fish don't get over run by it. Its like saying beware!! Women have yeast! Be careful who you touch! Yes, all women have yeast, but its only the ones with the nasty hoo-has that need to worry about infection. Just like fish kept in nasty tanks.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> The thing is, I take EXCELLENT care of my tanks. Most people with instances of fish TB are having cycling issues, or water quality issues, or don't take care of their tank. Yes, all fish have some form of Mycobacterium. Well taken care of fish don't get over run by it. Its like saying beware!! Women have yeast! Be careful who you touch! Yes, all women have yeast, but its only the ones with the nasty hoo-has that need to worry about infection. Just like fish kept in nasty tanks.


It is not a care issue. There is an unusual strain finding it's way into the betta hobby. Fish can carry and shed it for months. And my fish receive excellent care. I allowed ONE sick fish in the fish room and did not take proper steps and lost years of work. And I can tell you other breeders have taken excellent care of their fish. This is NOT a water quality issue causing a disease that can be cured. You going to tell the Z-fish research facility that they have care issues? I think not. But they get this. You get it by not taking precautions to keep it out. And they are pretty sever on how they handle getting rid of it. 

This is a heads up. If you have something you can not get rid of you have to face this issue. And you have to get the right kind of stuff to kill it on your tanks and everything else. And fish can not be cured. I was told by more than one expert to destroy everything and start fresh. This is what you read and what you do when nothing else is working. And you can be proactive about prevention.. or not.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> It is not a care issue. There is an unusual strain finding it's way into the betta hobby. Fish can carry and shed it for months. And my fish receive excellent care. I allowed ONE sick fish in the fish room and did not take proper steps and lost years of work. And I can tell you other breeders have taken excellent care of their fish. This is NOT a water quality issue causing a disease that can be cured. You going to tell the Z-fish research facility that they have care issues? I think not. But they get this. You get it by not taking precautions to keep it out. And they are pretty sever on how they handle getting rid of it.
> 
> This is a heads up. If you have something you can not get rid of you have to face this issue. And you have to get the right kind of stuff to kill it on your tanks and everything else. And fish can not be cured. I was told by more than one expert to destroy everything and start fresh. This is what you read and what you do when nothing else is working. And you can be proactive about prevention.. or not.


From a Microbiologist standpoint (yes that's me! BSAST MT(ASCP)) most bacteria disease are caused but lack of care. Most bacterial disease can be prevented by proper hygiene, or in the case of a fishroom, proper maintenance. As far as accidentally letting a bad fish in? Well, would you put an old lady with pneumonia in a room of babies? I think not. It's called quarantine for a reason. And in almost 100% of cases, a bad fish put in a healthy tank is not going to infect healthy fish. That fish will die and that will be the end of it. Healthy immune systems fight off disease.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Basement Bettas said:


> Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish.


If 70% or 100% fish in the trade have this (because I guess it's the same thing apparently) then there's nothing we can do, there's no clean stock, one of those papers said it's even difficult for scientists to get Myco-free stock, why bother? You'll get a fish that will die in a few hours, or you'll get one that will die in a year. If every fish is going to die of Myco then there's nothing we can do. Killing fish and replacing them with more fish with Myco? I don't quite get it.


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Olympia said:


> If 70% or 100% fish in the trade have this (because I guess it's the same thing apparently) then there's nothing we can do, there's no clean stock, one of those papers said it's even difficult for scientists to get Myco-free stock, why bother? You'll get a fish that will die in a few hours, or you'll get one that will die in a year. If every fish is going to die of Myco then there's nothing we can do. Killing fish and replacing them with more fish with Myco? I don't quite get it.


 
+++++++1
I was just thinking this same exact thing


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Originally Posted by *Basement Bettas*  
_Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish.


*70% = All fish? Math much?
*_


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Now I'm really scared that I'm going to get really sick from any fish that I buy...:blueworry:


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

There are different strains. Some can be managed. Others can not. You eradicate the bad ones and the good care manages the good one. When opened most fish will show the mycos. But not be riddled with a strain that is killing them off. 

And do the research on this DiesesMadchen. Fish carry and shed this without letting on they have it. When they do show signs.. often months later.. it is too late. 

It takes a lab to determine if you have this. And even more lab work.. mine down to dna analysis.. to determine the STRAIN. Each is different. Google m triplex and see what they symptoms are compared to other strains. This triplex is what is showing up and it is a death sentence. it is not quick. Fish go months with this getting progressively worse. Not everyone has lab access so this is just a tool to use when all else fails. Get the proper TB killer if you set on a path to eradicate it or prevent it.

Again.. this is information from phd's that study this particular disease. Look up Dr Chris Whipps.. and read his papers. There are a few others.. but he is a leading researcher in the field and the source of what I have shared. 

Some will heed and be careful. Some will try all kinds of meds before finally going this route,. And others will just keep on. To each his own. Now there is some other info besides add salt and all will be better in time.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Now I'm really scared that I'm going to get really sick from any fish that I buy...:blueworry:


Don't be. With good maintenance, chances are slim that a new fish will kill your stock. If you are worried, have a quarantine tank ready for any stock you buy.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Now I'm really scared that I'm going to get really sick from any fish that I buy...:blueworry:


I was thinking the same thing. You won't see a store warning customers about this potential problem.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

dramaqueen said:


> Oh, good lord, what a thread! There is a lot of good info in this thread. I just wish we could discuss it without everyone getting freaked out and flooding us with reports.


Well, with language like this:


Basement Bettas said:


> THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE


 in a forum full of young people it is bound to get a little scary and heated.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Now I'm really scared that I'm going to get really sick from any fish that I buy...:blueworry:


with a healthy immune system chances not. but it is wise not to have hands with open cuts in aquarium water. I have had my hands in my water and to date I have no issues. But i am a lot more careful now.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

New fish should always be quarrentined anyway.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> There are different strains. Some can be managed. Others can not. You eradicate the bad ones and the good care manages the good one. When opened most fish will show the mycos. But not be riddled with a strain that is killing them off.
> 
> And do the research on this DiesesMadchen. Fish carry and shed this without letting on they have it. When they do show signs.. often months later.. it is too late.
> 
> ...


No offense, but I prefer not to go off the misrepresented meanderings of a PhD, as it is usually the undergraduates doing the work for them. People working towards a degree doing research to get out of school. I work closely with a lot of PhDs and debunk a lot of what they say. I stated my credentials before. I AM a lab technologist and my research is pure when it comes to bacterial/viral infection. I do have a slight semblance of information that I put out. But I would like to know, besides google, what research you have done. Then you compare it to what I do for a living.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Now I'm really scared that I'm going to get really sick from any fish that I buy...:blueworry:


This is why we need to be careful about the information we spread and how we spread it.

Finn, don't worry. You won't get sick. There are only a few zoonotic diseases that can be caught from fish and you have to have open wounds to get them. Most of the time, those diseases affect fishermen who work with wild fish every day.

BB, I'm going to have to ask you to back off of this a little and give people some time to process this information.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Basement Bettas said:


> There are different strains. Some can be managed. Others can not. You eradicate the bad ones and the good care manages the good one. When opened most fish will show the mycos. But not be riddled with a strain that is killing them off.
> 
> And do the research on this DiesesMadchen. Fish carry and shed this without letting on they have it. When they do show signs.. often months later.. it is too late.
> 
> ...


This makes no sense to me, not everyone has MT right now, even you yourself said only a lab can tell you what you have. I don't think you can look at a scratch on a fish and say it is Myco and not something completely different.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

registereduser said:


> Well, with language like this: in a forum full of young people it is bound to get a little scary and heated.


It is the truth. It is made to call attention to it and any posts saying to use such and such are totally false. If there WAS a cure the major fish farms would have it as would the research facilities. in humans it takes 6-9 months of several drugs to get rid of it. Just isnt happening with fish. I was told I might be able to get the human drugs .. but research has not cured it. All the meds do is slow down the progression. And my drug tests proved that as well. I got some improvement only to see a rapid decline and death.

No need to take my word for ANY of this. PLEASE do the research and see if what I have shared is not proved correct by common and recent research.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> Don't be. With good maintenance, chances are slim that a new fish will kill your stock. If you are worried, have a quarantine tank ready for any stock you buy.


Well I actually only have one betta  and I've had him for over a year and he hasn't gotten me sick...But now I'm worried about any bettas I get in the future, like after my current one. Not only am I afraid of myself getting sick, but now I am actually extremely depressed to learn that pretty much every pet fish I will ever have will have this illness :..(


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Well I actually only have one betta  and I've had him for over a year and he hasn't gotten me sick...But now I'm worried about any bettas I get in the future, like after my current one. Not only am I afraid of myself getting sick, but now I am actually extremely depressed to learn that pretty much every pet fish I will ever have will have this illness :..(


BB, I hold you responsible for this. Please refrain from frightening our members.

Finn, there are people out there who have kept fish for 60 years and have never had any problem like this. As long as you practice good fishkeeping and keep the water clean, the likelihood of this happening is extremely slim. The fish who have been affected by this are unusual cases and we don't know why they got sick.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Olympia said:


> This makes no sense to me, not everyone has MT right now, even you yourself said only a lab can tell you what you have. I don't think you can look at a scratch on a fish and say it is Myco and not something completely different.


I saw this daily on hundreds of fish. I have a pretty good idea of what it looks like, where it presents and the earliest signs of it. Do you think I just woke up and decided I was an expert? I was made TOO knowledgeable from what I saw daily, in lots of fish, for months. 

No need to believe me. Do the research. And read the scientific papers and not an opinion on a web site. Matter of fact, find someone doing research with it and send them an email.

Believe me.. this is the last thing I want to have any experience with.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Well I actually only have one betta  and I've had him for over a year and he hasn't gotten me sick...But now I'm worried about any bettas I get in the future, like after my current one. Not only am I afraid of myself getting sick, but now I am actually extremely depressed to learn that pretty much every pet fish I will ever have will have this illness :..(


Hon, all fish has a strain of Myco. Good maintenance, a heater, a filter with cycled media, and plenty of care will keep this from ever affecting your fish. Don't be worried. If you take care of you pet, he will be fine.


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## twolovers101 (Sep 17, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Well I actually only have one betta  and I've had him for over a year and he hasn't gotten me sick...But now I'm worried about any bettas I get in the future, like after my current one. Not only am I afraid of myself getting sick, but now I am actually extremely depressed to learn that pretty much every pet fish I will ever have will have this illness :..(


This is exactly what I was concerned about in my earlier post... it is because of the overall feel of the thread and first few posts that people get that panic, what do I do now? feeling... :/

Finn, don't stress about it, I've known people to have fish from these large chains that live for 3 years or more, so all in all, there's not that much change in the status quot. This is just about a disease that is dangerous, but I don't think people should be flipping tables bout it :/


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

This is what I am getting from this thread.

Quarantine. Yeah I do that. But then some who have it won't show symptoms until months later, so really, how is QTing helping? Then, if 70% of fish are affected, anyone who has more than one fish has a very high chance of having an infected fish. Also, most people on this forum don't have the money to buy separate things for all their fish. I sure don't have the money for 5 vacuums, 5 test kits, 5 EVERYTHING for my 5 fish. And also, most people don't have something to disinfect that will actually kill it. So chances are, if you have one infected fish, all of your fish have been exposed. It can kill in days or months or years, and you really don't know if they have it until after they are dead. Are we running in circles, here?

I am probably jinxing myself, but I have owned 6 bettas in my life and the first one died from jumping out of the tank... Not disease. I still have the other five. All the symptoms listed make it sound like my VT has it... But then again, it could be anything and he also is getting old. So the only way for me to know if he does have it is if he dies. And in any case, all my other fish have been exposed because I only have vinegar and bleach.

There seems to be no solution, and I read this entire thread and the link. Everything points to another "what if" but not really any fool-proof solution.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Do even all wild fish have a strain of Myco?


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> No offense, but I prefer not to go off the misrepresented meanderings of a PhD, as it is usually the undergraduates doing the work for them. People working towards a degree doing research to get out of school. I work closely with a lot of PhDs and debunk a lot of what they say. I stated my credentials before. I AM a lab technologist and my research is pure when it comes to bacterial/viral infection. I do have a slight semblance of information that I put out. But I would like to know, besides google, what research you have done. Then you compare it to what I do for a living.


It is not google doing my research. Google led me to those in the field. I have asked them and they have answered. I have papers written by those I have talked to published in the trade magazines. I would think if they were a farce, the scientific community would debunk them. And the research is supported by research done in other counties. I have spent a lot of time reading research papers.. and then directly questioning those that wrote them. I'm sure Dr whipps work will stand on its own. I do not doubt what you do. I know what I was told was the diagnoses. I know what I have been told is the solution. I know what I had in my fish room. I also know what DID NOT get rid of it. Research has led me to believe what I was told to be true. I'd be very curious to read some of your papers that show where the information I have received is false.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> Hon, all fish has a strain of Myco. Good maintenance, a heater, a filter with cycled media, and plenty of care will keep this from ever affecting your fish. Don't be worried. If you take care of you pet, he will be fine.


As long as they are not exposed to a more pathogenic strain of the mycos..


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes wild populations have been found to have it. It lives in the soil too.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

What you should get from this thread is use care when getting new fish. If your fish have a disease that is very resistant to meds, take a hard look at the fact you may have mycos. There is a PROPER way to get rid of it. And for those want to not get it is is not a bad idea to still have an anti TB spray to clean stuff once in a while.

No need to panic. Yes.. you see alot of it around. Just know some facts and you can prevent it or if you decide you might have it.. you can rest knowing you can eliminate it with the proper procedures. There is no more struggling with mystery unknowns you cant get rid of. When all other options fail.. look closer at this one.

That's all...


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

OK. I am going to break this down, and hopefully end the mass hysteria that seems to be going on. First, I would like to say, I am a Medical Technologist. I am currently a laboratory supervisor with many years of Laboratory experience. I am not a self proclaimed basement breeding fish expert. 

99% of fish have some form of pathogen, whether it be Ich, Myco, or other.

Most fish is a well kept aquarium do not get sick. Healthy immune systems fight off illness. Think of this in terms of a chemo patient. They can died from the common cold because they're immune system is weak and stressed. Most healthy people shrug off the common cold. 

I am a woman. I have yeast. Doesn't mean I have a yeast infection. Oh wait, I also have staph on my skin. Doesnt mean I have a staph infection. Oh and that yogurt you are eating? Oh that has bacteria in it too. Lactobacillus, which is also known as normal vaginal flora. Oh yes, it is. Think about it.

Everyone and everything has a bacterial subsystem living within them, each one keeping another in check. It is all part of the immune system. When one part gets compromised, defenses fail and you end up diseased, This goes the same for any organism, whether a mammal or fish. 

HEALTHY TANKS EQUAL HEALTHY FISH. IF YOU ARE CONCERNED, QUARANTINE. TAKE CARE OF YOUR TANK.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Alaya, BB, Sakura, Dieses, Twolovers, and Olympia; thank you all for your support and reassurance. This thread really scared me...


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## twolovers101 (Sep 17, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> As long as they are not exposed to a more pathogenic strain of the mycos..


A thought just occurred to me

What you're saying is that 70% of all farm fish (like for major petstores) carry some strain of mycos.

Also, per Olympia, fish in the wild also carry some sort of strain of mycos and it can even be found in the soil.

What you just said here mentioned a PATHOGENIC strain. So say, out of those 70% of fish that carry mycos, how many documented major wipe-outs like the one that happened to you have happened?

And if it's as small a number as it seems to be (seeing as _most _people don't ever have an issue with this disease) is it possible that only the people who handle large numbers of fish see the pathogenic strain? and if so, and if only 1 fish caused this and the ONE fish happened to have this particular pathogenic strain, then is it possible that a MUCH LOWER percent of fish actually have the disease that is causing the panic that we are seeing?


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> It is not google doing my research. Google led me to those in the field. I have asked them and they have answered. I have papers written by those I have talked to published in the trade magazines. I would think if they were a farce, the scientific community would debunk them. And the research is supported by research done in other counties. I have spent a lot of time reading research papers.. and then directly questioning those that wrote them. I'm sure Dr whipps work will stand on its own. I do not doubt what you do. I know what I was told was the diagnoses. I know what I have been told is the solution. I know what I had in my fish room. I also know what DID NOT get rid of it. Research has led me to believe what I was told to be true. I'd be very curious to read some of your papers that show where the information I have received is false.


It's not a matter of published papers, its common sense. If every fish has myco, then every fish should be killed and at home aquariums should be banned. And all these papers you speak of, I seem to be having trouble finding. Nothing I am reading is indicating that its the epidemic you are claiming it is. Sorry you lost years of works. Clean your tanks.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Twolovers, you have a very good point and I think it bears looking at. It's a logical assumption in any case that the larger the numbers, the higher the statistics.

Also, one thing I learned in college pyschology is statistics can ALWAYS be skewed to serve one's purposes and to not take numbers just by themselves but to seek further information.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

twolovers101 said:


> A thought just occurred to me
> 
> What you're saying is that 70% of all farm fish (like for major petstores) carry some strain of mycos.
> 
> ...


I've seen people with one or very few fish get this disease. But it makes sense that the more fish you have, the higher chance of getting it. I wouldn't say that ONLY people who handle large numbers of fish experience it...


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> OK. I am going to break this down, and hopefully end the mass hysteria that seems to be going on. First, I would like to say, I am a Medical Technologist. I am currently a laboratory supervisor with many years of Laboratory experience. I am not a self proclaimed basement breeding fish expert.
> 
> 99% of fish have some form of pathogen, whether it be Ich, Myco, or other.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% But exposure to this strain will take a fish down., Happy and healthy will not make the fish able to resist this. There is no immunity once this enters the fish. It will weaken the fish and eventually kill it. My fish were in perfect health until exposed to this. And I dare say others I know who have dealt with this also have perfectly healthy systems until exposed. Sure.. take care of your tanks. But make sure you are not exposed too. I had UV and that just slowed the progression. I put perfectly happy and healthy fish back in my barracks and fish once again showed symptoms. It had not been eradicated properly from the system itself. did not even need a sick fish this time. I'm sure exposing you to something like the plague will quickly make even you not feel too good. Depends on what you are exposed to.


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## twolovers101 (Sep 17, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> I've seen people with one or very few fish get this disease. But it makes sense that the more fish you have, the higher chance of getting it. I wouldn't say that ONLY people who handle large numbers of fish experience it...


You are correct, I shouldn't have used the term "only" maybe "mostly" or "the majority of people who see this type of disease are those who handle large numbers of fish" would have been more appropriate xD

Also, I have seen it happen to a person with only one fish before, so it is possible, what I'm saying is maybe the percentages of this particular deadly pathogenic strain are actually lower than what people think


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Basement Bettas... Out of curiousity, did you QT the fish that introduced this to your tanks? Did you buy him/her from a store or a breeder? If you did QT, how long? What were the first symptoms? Most alarming?
I'm just curious because I want to know how long to QT any new fish and what exactly to look for and such...


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

twolovers101 said:


> A thought just occurred to me
> 
> What you're saying is that 70% of all farm fish (like for major petstores) carry some strain of mycos.
> 
> ...


It is this pathogenic strain that is starting to show up in large numbers. You have to do a lot of searching as it is not the common strains. And it is deadly. I saw it locally in 6 pet shops.. in their bettas. And all get from one supplier. I think there is a serious exposure issue there. So recommend using real care, at this point in time, when buying from the major chains. I'm sure my fish had other mycos present. But the one causing the deaths and all the other crazy and varied sypmtoms was this triplex.


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> I agree with you 100% But exposure to this strain will take a fish down., Happy and healthy will not make the fish able to resist this. There is no immunity once this enters the fish. It will weaken the fish and eventually kill it. My fish were in perfect health until exposed to this. And I dare say others I know who have dealt with this also have perfectly healthy systems until exposed. Sure.. take care of your tanks. But make sure you are not exposed too. I had UV and that just slowed the progression. I put perfectly happy and healthy fish back in my barracks and fish once again showed symptoms. It had not been eradicated properly from the system itself. did not even need a sick fish this time. I'm sure exposing you to something like the plague will quickly make even you not feel too good. Depends on what you are exposed to.



Well bringing up the plague is a nice direction to turn. Really gets on the rarity of certain diseases. There have been maybe 5 documented cases a year of infections caused by Yersinia pestis, so yeah, anyone in contact with the plague is going to feel kind of cruddy. Nobody has immunity to it. But when you are talking about Myco, a bacteria that every fish has, even the harsher strains are granted some immunity from it, as the fish is used to having it.

Oh and just in case you didn't know 

**Yersinia Pestis = Bubonic Plague/Black Death


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay.. think this is my last post on this topic for now...
Mycobacterium has been around for years on end. When I joined this hobby, one of the first things on disease I read was "mycobacterium is found in almost every aquarium fish in some number." We've known this for a long time (okay, shush, I haven't been fish keeping that long ). 

I would honestly, think that if we were having some sort of bacterial epidemic here, that some magazine like Amazonas or Practical Fish Keeping would have commented on it. They haven't, no one seems too worried about this to me.
This has been around for so many years (gosh, some of those paper's sources are from the 90's- we do realize that's over a decade right?) and the world hasn't ended, fish still live in tanks, they will keep living in tanks. Die outs here and there is part of the hobby and happens when you aren't careful with your fish.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Basement Bettas said:


> It is this pathogenic strain that is starting to show up in large numbers. You have to do a lot of searching as it is not the common strains. And it is deadly. I saw it locally in 6 pet shops.. in their bettas. And all get from one supplier. I think there is a serious exposure issue there. So recommend using real care, at this point in time, when buying from the major chains. I'm sure my fish had other mycos present. But the one causing the deaths and all the other crazy and varied sypmtoms was this triplex.


How can you tell they have pathogenic M. without lab testing?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That is true. Every expert who has written books/magazine articles on fish diseases agree that the only way to positively know a fish has myco is to do testing, whether it's a tissue sample or an autopsy. And saying you recognize the signs isn't cutting it because every expert also agrees that there are many diseases that mimic each other, hence the need for lab testing.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

twolovers101 said:


> You are correct, I shouldn't have used the term "only" maybe "mostly" or "the majority of people who see this type of disease are those who handle large numbers of fish" would have been more appropriate xD
> 
> Also, I have seen it happen to a person with only one fish before, so it is possible, what I'm saying is maybe the percentages of this particular deadly pathogenic strain are actually lower than what people think


I hope so. And it does make sense... But I think we also often don't hear about the cases of people who only owned one Betta, because anyone can go out and buy one, stick it in a tiny unheated tank and not think anything about it when the fish dies... Maybe it could be a reason people seen to have "bad luck" with bettas (besides that they are uneducated on proper care). Many people think that disinfecting with hot water actually works, and can't understand why every new fish they get dies...

I just find it hard to believe than anyone has that kind of info about the Betta population as a whole because anyone can go out and buy one. I could have got one on my own when I was 5 if I had $10.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Basement Bettas... Out of curiousity, did you QT the fish that introduced this to your tanks? Did you buy him/her from a store or a breeder? If you did QT, how long? What were the first symptoms? Most alarming?
> I'm just curious because I want to know how long to QT any new fish and what exactly to look for and such...


Got him from a US breeder. QT for like 60 days. Decided was tired of cleaning the beanie and put him in my barracks. Then he got a bit off.. eventually bloated and died. It happens. so removed him and put another fish in that cell. About 2 more fish deaths IN THAT CELL made me think something not right. And now the entire row showing symptoms. Was not long after the entire system showed signs. Because I just went from one barrack to the next or next tank without disinfection.. I quickly exposed my entire fish room. In 2 months time I had every fish showing symptoms. I searched out a phd, asked some questions and he told me to send fish. He had wanted to look at the columnaris that was so resistant. It took 5 months from getting the fish to diagnosis. And I was lucky enough I was allowed to send fish to be tested. And they were very patient with answering all my questions and referring me to other scientific papers to read. Many people have had this in their fish room over a year and just never could shake it. Now that we know what it is it is being dealt with. And we are getting rid of it.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

So if I take good care of my fish (which I obviously do) then I shouldn't be worrying about this Myco bacterium?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Exactly, Finn.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> Got him from a US breeder. QT for like 60 days. Decided was tired of cleaning the beanie and put him in my barracks. Then he got a bit off.. eventually bloated and died. It happens. so removed him and put another fish in that cell. About 2 more fish deaths IN THAT CELL made me think something not right. And now the entire row showing symptoms. Was not long after the entire system showed signs. Because I just went from one barrack to the next or next tank without disinfection.. I quickly exposed my entire fish room. In 2 months time I had every fish showing symptoms. I searched out a phd, asked some questions and he told me to send fish. He had wanted to look at the columnaris that was so resistant. It took 5 months from getting the fish to diagnosis. And I was lucky enough I was allowed to send fish to be tested. And they were very patient with answering all my questions and referring me to other scientific papers to read. Many people have had this in their fish room over a year and just never could shake it. Now that we know what it is it is being dealt with. And we are getting rid of it.


60 days QT? :/ oh, my. Maybe I just shouldn't ever get new fish, haha.
How do you go about getting rid of this, you think? It seems like an awful lot to take on. 60 days sounds like a long time... Even that didn't protect your stock.


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## twolovers101 (Sep 17, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> I hope so. And it does make sense... But I think we also often don't hear about the cases of people who only owned one Betta, because anyone can go out and buy one, stick it in a tiny unheated tank and not think anything about it when the fish dies... Maybe it could be a reason people seen to have "bad luck" with bettas (besides that they are uneducated on proper care). Many people think that disinfecting with hot water actually works, and can't understand why every new fish they get dies...
> 
> I just find it hard to believe than anyone has that kind of info about the Betta population as a whole because anyone can go out and buy one. I could have got one on my own when I was 5 if I had $10.


You make a good point, and the only thing I would say about all the other bettas that people buy say, for decoration, is that we can't really tell what killed their fish, so there's no way to know for sure. It seems to me that most of the people I know that have kept fish, and kept them well have never seen this type of disease hit their tanks. Olympia made an excellent point about some major magazines, and someone else had a good point about if this was as bad as it's being made out to be, then home aquariums would be banned. 

Personally, I don't see the point for panic on this level, now that the conversation has mellowed a bit (after 8 pages or so) there is less of that panic, however, for casual browsers who are looking for information on their pet here on the forums, seeing something like this and reading the first few pages is terrifying. 

I digress, I guess my thing is, is that this really probably isn't the epidemic that some think it is


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

twolovers101 said:


> You make a good point, and the only thing I would say about all the other bettas that people buy say, for decoration, is that we can't really tell what killed their fish, so there's no way to know for sure. It seems to me that most of the people I know that have kept fish, and kept them well have never seen this type of disease hit their tanks. Olympia made an excellent point about some major magazines, and someone else had a good point about if this was as bad as it's being made out to be, then home aquariums would be banned.
> 
> Personally, I don't see the point for panic on this level, now that the conversation has mellowed a bit (after 8 pages or so) there is less of that panic, however, for casual browsers who are looking for information on their pet here on the forums, seeing something like this and reading the first few pages is terrifying.
> 
> I digress, I guess my thing is, is that this really probably isn't the epidemic that some think it is


Yeah, I'm not too worried about my current fish... But I need at least 2 more females for my sorority and this makes me scared to introduce any new fish, especially if 60 days of QTing didn't prevent it. I'd hate to lose my new girls, or either of my boys... I've had my VT for over a year, now.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I'll be dreadfully honest. I didn't QT any of my girls before I added them to my sorority. >.> I know, very bad of me. *slaps self on hand*


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## twolovers101 (Sep 17, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Yeah, I'm not too worried about my current fish... But I need at least 2 more females for my sorority and this makes me scared to introduce any new fish, especially if 60 days of QTing didn't prevent it. I'd hate to lose my new girls, or either of my boys... I've had my VT for over a year, now.


If you want to be as careful as possible, buy from a breeder, you'll probably be less likely to encounter a deadly strain that way. In either case, I'd still go with the normal precautions and good husbandry and not worry so much. This has been around for a while, and though, yes, it is good to know information about this strain and what it can do, it's not likely that you'll encounter it. (I think, I'm no pro, just logic and common sense talking here... well at least... my brand of logic lol :lol


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> It's not a matter of published papers, its common sense. If every fish has myco, then every fish should be killed and at home aquariums should be banned. And all these papers you speak of, I seem to be having trouble finding. Nothing I am reading is indicating that its the epidemic you are claiming it is. Sorry you lost years of works. Clean your tanks.


Some strains of mycos are more pathogenic than others and more deadly in your fish. There area bunch of strains. Can you not understand some are more deadly than others? It is exposure to THOSE and only those. You do not want marinum nor do you want the triplex. Those are two where the protocall is to destroy the fish and nuke the system. The others can be managed. If my fish had presented another variety, I would not have had the symptoms I did and something else would have been the cause. But the result was m. triplex. There is not much info out there as it is NOT common. But is IS working its way though bettas at this time.

My tanks are clean.. do your home work. I talked at length with people IN THE FIELD researching this. Just because it is not well know doesnot make it not a threat. Although educated and more familiar with disease than most.. you are not an expert in this field. And I am sorry.. but I will take the word of the scientists currently working on this over your lab experience.. no offense.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

twolovers101 said:


> If you want to be as careful as possible, buy from a breeder, you'll probably be less likely to encounter a deadly strain that way. In either case, I'd still go with the normal precautions and good husbandry and not worry so much. This has been around for a while, and though, yes, it is good to know information about this strain and what it can do, it's not likely that you'll encounter it. (I think, I'm no pro, just logic and common sense talking here... well at least... my brand of logic lol :lol


My current three are from Mo. All of them so far are super active and healthy looking.  I've had them for a week. But, as Basement Bettas stated, the sick fish she got was from a breeder.

Sakura: ha, I hope I get super lucky with my sorority. I'm too attached to my current girls already and I don't want any of them to get sick. I hope they all get along once I get them in the same tank!


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## Tazman (Jan 15, 2012)

I think understanding a well written scientific paper is nearly impossible for anyone without a degree. doctorate or phd in the subject.

There are many things in life we have to live with and fish being sick is one of them, if science had a cure for everything (within reason), do you not think something would have been said about it? There are countless sites on the web about cancer saying it has been cured for years and hasnt been released to the public because of the drugs companies and the fact they could lose billions, losing billions over having health care costs explode over the roof for cancer treatment patients...weigh up the argument.

There have been some very valid points here and yes there is a disease going around that is becoming more widespread, no more than any other potential disease "we" have to deal with in this world we call home. MRSA, simple infection in its earliest form, became very widespread due to the overuse of antibiotics.

Point being, yes this disease is carried by most fish, will something trigger it, cannot be 100% sure, all we can do is care for our fish as best as we can. 
Truth is, you happened to come on a situation that caused your fish to perish, sorry for this loss, chances though are yes increasing on others getting it as it is becoming more widespread...look at it another way though, we as humans removed the fish from their habitat for our personal enjoyment...should we have done that...no not really...

Enough of my rant...it will effect some more than others until a full blown outbreak occurs worldwide there is no cause for alarm in keeping our fish.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Okay.. think this is my last post on this topic for now...
> Mycobacterium has been around for years on end. When I joined this hobby, one of the first things on disease I read was "mycobacterium is found in almost every aquarium fish in some number." We've known this for a long time (okay, shush, I haven't been fish keeping that long ).
> 
> I would honestly, think that if we were having some sort of bacterial epidemic here, that some magazine like Amazonas or Practical Fish Keeping would have commented on it. They haven't, no one seems too worried about this to me.
> This has been around for so many years (gosh, some of those paper's sources are from the 90's- we do realize that's over a decade right?) and the world hasn't ended, fish still live in tanks, they will keep living in tanks. Die outs here and there is part of the hobby and happens when you aren't careful with your fish.


It is not an epidemic. It is something many of us that breed a lot of bettas have been recently exposed to. And I am seeing it in too many fish offered for sale at the local level. And I see too many posts here with stuff I don't like. So all this post if for is a warning,. It is out there., in the betta community. Breeders to the local shops. Watch your fish. Keep tanks as clean and healthy as possible. Treat for common disease. And if you face something that just will not go away.. look seriously at the possibility of this being the cause. And take the right steps to be free of it rather than have it nagging in the back ground. It can totally destroy the joy in keeping fish.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Exactly, Finn.


Thank you Sakura


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> So if I take good care of my fish (which I obviously do) then I shouldn't be worrying about this Myco bacterium?


no. If you do not introduce it with another fish.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Olympia said:


> How can you tell they have pathogenic M. without lab testing?


no absolute way. But look at the signs. lesions.. mostly about the head. bloating and dropsey. Wasteing away. Bad fin rot that moves very quick and into the flesh. If you look down the sides of your fish and see odd patches with a little fuzz look to it. ALL are symptoms.. treat for the obvious and if it fails consider the mycos. Or send to a lab. It took a lot to get the final diagnosis of the strain. And it was done for the number of fish I had. My local vet wanted $900 to work up 3 fish. I had 30 tested first, then another 24 I think. I will send more this summer to confirm it is gone. Not everyone is going to get that from a research facility. So keep this in the back of you mind as always a possibility..


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Something just occurred to me. The person who first positively identified this as mycobacterium, at least on the forum and on the mystery disease thread, was Coppermoon.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Where did you send them? Did you pay anything for it?


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

The link to my article with the references was deleted. No outside links I'm told. But I hope this one will be allowed. It took some searching to find products that will kill this stuff. My first attempt was not a good one. If it needs deleted.. sorry, just remove the link. But the EPA.gov site is where you need to go and dig if deleted.

These are products that will kill mycos. I'd recommend seeing your local vet or googling some of these online if you want to have a heavy duty disinfectant. Even if you just have an outbreak of velvet.. if you break down a tank, it is not a bad idea to hit it with something like this. And if you have the flu in your house you can use it on your stuff too. To kill mycos required the second highest kill level I think I remember reading. It will kill HIV virus.. that is how strong we are talking.

I let mine stand the 5 minutes wet it recommends then rinse with water. THen everything gets a good bleach dip to remove traces of the first spray.. then another good rinse and you are ready to go.

http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/list_b_tuberculocide.pdf


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Where did you send them? Did you pay anything for it?


When I sought out a researcher he located a local vet. He told me to see them and let him know what they told me. They could not even do a skin scrape and charged me $200. When I relayed that and the fact they wanted $900 he said to send fish to him. I got the initial result from their skin scraping. Then the did the finer testing and again said all fish had it all through the body,, in all organs. And it was recommended I talk to the leading researcher in the field to identify the strain as my symptoms were not lining up with what is out there on TB,. So he sent the referral to Dr Whipps and more fish were sent. There were some oddities like chin bumps that just were not typical presentations. It took a bit, but we finally, with dna, identified the strain. But I had already had the mycos diagnoses and was taking steps to get rid of it. When it returned we discovered the wrong chemical was used. Had I used the correct one I would not have had this last bunch with it again. I did not pay anyting but shipping for this.

It is not something they will do for anybody. With 500-1000 fish at any given time, I was almost like a research facility or commercial breeder. I am very thankful for their time and it has allowed me to tell others we have a serious problem. So it is now addressed and we are moving forward.. clean. 

But the concern is with what I saw in local shops. One must use care when buying bettas as many come from the same facility. And I doubt they will destroy stock and decontaminate for bettas.


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

*Anyone interested in using a good disinfectant that will kill TB --*
Look up MSDS sheets of products to see what they are proven to kill.

Bleach, if used right will work! You need to let MOST disinfectants sit on the product for ATLEAST 10 minutes to kill everything. It has to be soaked enough to be wet the entire ten minutes its being used or else it becomes inneffective.
Bleach in a 1-10 solution is hospital grade and is proven to kill HIV Hepatitis, TB, etc as well. 

Another good one is Barbicide, commonly available at most Sally's beauty supply or online and is a great disinfectant to use. It'll kill HIV, TB, Hepatitis, etc. We use it as cosmetologists (the blue stuff for our shears), as we are required to use Hospital grade disinfectants. 10 minutes, surface soaked enough to stay wet the entire 10 minute duration.

Read manufacturer directions and it will tell you how long to leave it on and if you leave it less than that, you arent killing what you think you are!


EDIT:: Sorry, I didnt look at the link before I wrote this.
Everything still holds true, but the list definitely shows more options.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Something just occurred to me. The person who first positively identified this as mycobacterium, at least on the forum and on the mystery disease thread, was Coppermoon.


She got it from the same breeder I did. And she did not want to face the mycos when my diagnosis came back. I finally got her to send some fish and her diagnosis was not a surprise.. same symptoms. Got fish from same person.. at same time. And it wiped her out too. There are a few of us recovering from this. Everyone just though some crud resistant to drugs. We should have acted faster.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

aemaki09 said:


> *Anyone interested in using a good disinfectant that will kill TB --*
> Look up MSDS sheets of products to see what they are proven to kill.
> 
> Bleach, if used right will work! You need to let MOST disinfectants sit on the product for ATLEAST 10 minutes to kill everything. It has to be soaked enough to be wet the entire ten minutes its being used or else it becomes inneffective.
> ...


Got to use a REAL high concentration for a long time. Remember I had it in my barracks running for TWO WEEKS and it still came back. Terminator triplex.. Isn't the exposure to bleach like an hour? And I'm going to check out sallys.. though I have a good product now.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Was that a breeder in Texas?


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> Got to use a REAL high concentration for a long time. Remember I had it in my barracks running for TWO WEEKS and it still came back. Terminator triplex.. Isn't the exposure to bleach like an hour? And I'm going to check out sallys.. though I have a good product now.


 
Barbicide is my favorite by far.
What we use at my shop is just regular grade clorox bleach. 1 cup/pedicure tub and OSHA and the State Cos board both say its good to use. 10 minutes in a pedicure tub and then another 10 minutes of plain water running.
We use barbicide for everything else besides laundry, which is 1 cup per load.
I dont know how it didnt work in your barracks. But this what we are required to do, and we are required to use the same disinfection procedures as a surgical suite in a hospital.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> Was that a breeder in Texas?


The origin.. no. And the source is no concern. We have identified the mystery bug, and we have the knowledge to get rid of it. And we have notified who we needed to.

If you let a tank air dry and sit a month or more, you destroy the biofilm and that will also kill it off. it is the biofilms that make this so tough to get rid of. Most research says to use bleach first to break down the biofilms then hit with something MADE to kill the TB.

If you buy local bettas, pick up lots of containers and look for patches of lesions around the head. That is the most common symptom. And if you see it on even one.. do NOT buy fish. Can guarantee they have been exposed at the shop with water changes or the holding facility they came from. Really not worth it...


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

EDIT:::: I meant to say Barbicide PLUS. PLus is the tuberculocidal grade of barbicide.

http://www.sallybeauty.com/Barbicide-Plus/SBS-585064,default,pd.html << link for barbicide plus at sally's so you know what to look for

--This is kind of a long story --- BUT
It comes in a smaller form for anyone with only a few fish and interested in trying it. Its a 2 ounce (i believe) bottle with an empty spray bottle packaged with it. They do this because they dont have another license to sell it as a spray, only as an immersing solution. Anyways, you add half the bottle of barbicide to the spray bottle, the rest water, and you can spray your tank walls with it, and its much easier to use that way.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

This is what you look for. The grey fuzz looking stuff that makes you think columnaris. And the raising of the scale as more are setting in.

and this is MY photo edited for illustration..


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

look past the first two arrows.. past the more gray area.. and you will see a fainter patch before you see those other arrows with the raised scales. From nose to almost where the blue starts is an infected area. It will become more like the more grey areas towards the front in time. If the internal organs do not fail first.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

aemaki09 said:


> EDIT:::: I meant to say Barbicide PLUS. PLus is the tuberculocidal grade of barbicide.
> 
> http://www.sallybeauty.com/Barbicide-Plus/SBS-585064,default,pd.html << link for barbicide plus at sally's so you know what to look for
> 
> ...


COOL! Thanks for the link and info. I have not live anyplace in the last 30 years that did not have a sallys. So people should be able to get this type of product easily. Thanks again.


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## beacon (Nov 18, 2012)

This thread really got my attention and concerned me. After I calmed down I realized its a very helpful thread as it made me evaluate the bio safety of my set up. I have reorganized to prevent illness to myself and hopefully my fish. I read the list of things that can kill the bacteria and many of those things are readily available. That was a relief.

This thread helped me cause now I am aware of potential problems and can take steps to prevent them. But yes, it did also scare me


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

beacon said:


> This thread really got my attention and concerned me. After I calmed down I realized its a very helpful thread as it made me evaluate the bio safety of my set up. I have reorganized to prevent illness to myself and hopefully my fish. I read the list of things that can kill the bacteria and many of those things are readily available. That was a relief.
> 
> This thread helped me cause now I am aware of potential problems and can take steps to prevent them. But yes, it did also scare me


Then the thread did it's job. No need to be freaked out.. but know there can be a problem. I wish some one had presented the possibility of such a thing to me. Some fear is a good thing.. lol

If you have any concerns that are not addressed.. just pm me and I'll discuss private.


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

Can I ask something ?

My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
His ski become red, and his skin was broken.

What do you think ?
Was that Micobacteria ?


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## DiesesMadchen (Nov 13, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> Some strains of mycos are more pathogenic than others and more deadly in your fish. There area bunch of strains. Can you not understand some are more deadly than others? It is exposure to THOSE and only those. You do not want marinum nor do you want the triplex. Those are two where the protocall is to destroy the fish and nuke the system. The others can be managed. If my fish had presented another variety, I would not have had the symptoms I did and something else would have been the cause. But the result was m. triplex. There is not much info out there as it is NOT common. But is IS working its way though bettas at this time.
> 
> My tanks are clean.. do your home work. I talked at length with people IN THE FIELD researching this. Just because it is not well know doesnot make it not a threat. Although educated and more familiar with disease than most.. you are not an expert in this field. And I am sorry.. but I will take the word of the scientists currently working on this over your lab experience.. no offense.


Well, if you want to believe everything you read and scare the fishkeeping population into not buying fish, just because you had a bad fish, then go for it.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh wow... I mean, serious? This thread was intended to inform, not create hysteria or scare people from buying fish. This had been taken way out of context, and some (such as Finn) would not of freaked out if others didn't jump the bandwagon and go on the attack instead of discussing something that is serious.

We're not talking about how all bettas have this and how rare it happens, etc.. what BB is trying to say is that there is a strong strain that has recently surfaced and is going on the attack big time as of late. 

That's it. A warning. "Hey, this strain of this serious bacteria has been popping up lately in mass amounts more than normal, so take precautions when you get new fish". And she stated her troubles with it.

How in the world it got into a debate, why people would attack, is beyond me. People who are out there buying sick fish because they want to "rescue" a betta need this warning. It's crazy to go out and buy a sick fish, in my opinion. I personally have too much time and money placed into my couple dozen bettas that are for breeding to not listen to people who have had to deal with this. If you have one fish, then there is no reason to panic.. if you have just a few fish there is no reason to panic. But the lesson still stands - take care when you purchase sick fish. Or don't risk the health of your current fish (regardless of the numbers) and just don't buy a sick fish. Simple as that.

To attack and say this thread is creating hysteria, etc is just silly.. it wasn't until someone/s went on the attack did someone "freak out" about it. It's the people who walk around the crowd whispering in the ears of the people saying "Oh hey, this person is speaking of the devil! That person knows something we don't and is warning us of doom! Witch! Witch! Watch your children run and scream in fear because this is witchcraft!", those people whispering in the ears are what creates hysteria. Someone giving vital information and warning that a certain strain has become troublesome as of late is nothing to argue against. If specialists are saying that this strain has popped up and is being very aggressive recently then that is what is happening, has nothing to do with whether or not these fish carry a different strain of it all the time. Not talking about that. Talking about this particular strain and how it's going on the attack right now wide spread. That's it.
You have had your fish for years and it's been healthy, and you don't plan on buying any new fish any time soon.. then why worry? This is just to let people know to be careful with new fish that has been taken way out of context/hand.

I mean, seriously.. to argue because someone is warning of what is happening in the betta trade right now is not helping anyone. 

On a side note - I need to talk to a breeder friend of mine, and get with you BB (will do it on B.Source), as your picture is exactly what one of mine I got from a breeder looked like before I put him down yesterday.. 20 years of raising fish, one case of Ich, no other disease has affected any of my fish, deaths only from old age and I just had exactly what that picture shows happen to an import that has been passed around to a few breeders before he came to me.. those visual symptoms are what he had, no other symptom was noticed other then lethargy, ruled out dropsy (may not of had a sick fish, but spent the better part of 2 years researching illnesses in bettas and what my guy had was new to me). So in fact if this strain is as active as it is showing to be, and if people are being warned about it (talking about specialists warning) then this is of high concern to people who breed/show fish. I can't say for sure this guy has it, and I'm not going to freak out about it. But because of this I will be taking precautions, warn the breeders who have had this particular fish and see if I lose another. If I lose another fish the same way then I will take the steps to get it tested, etc and go from there. No one should freak out about a warning. I have a reason to and I'm not.. have just purchased 3 more imports that should be here today or tomorrow, I will take extra precautions.. no big deal. And it should be a concern to anyone who is actively purchasing fish, sick fish. 

I wish I didn't get rid of the body yesterday.. I would of liked to of gotten him tested because if he has it then there are a couple great breeders that I need to warn.

THANK YOU BB, even if people are jumping on the bandwagon of trying to argue for the sake of arguing, the warning you gave is a very good one and should be appreciated.

Sorry, may not of been the best to jump in, but I just saw no reason for the assault on BB and her post.
Not about not buying fish.. it's about taking precautions when introducing new fish.. being a little scared is fine, as it gets you to thinking about being careful, etc and that is a good thing. Please, can we just stop attacking the messenger here, and instead discuss ways to help reduce the risk of this becoming even more wide spread?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

norico said:


> Can I ask something ?
> 
> My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
> His ski become red, and his skin was broken.
> ...


What medication did you use to treat fin rot? Medications, as a whole, can be very hard on fish due to their small/fragile organs. It's very easy to overdose on the medications which could also cause a lot of health problems. 

It seems you have used numerous medications on the fish.. why I am curious as to what you did for the fin rot.

Pineconing happens from all different ailments, normally it happens once internal organs start to fail.. which could of happened due to medications being used.. even using AQ salt for certain problems such as SBD can make things worse and deadly. 

He may of had an internal bacteria infection (not what is being discussed), or a bad reaction to the medications being used on him..


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## MSG (May 8, 2012)

*The problem with mycobacteria the pictures of it are nasty to look at.*

There's only so many blurry, diseased fish I can look at before I call it quits.

Anyway.... take a look at these photos, let me know if anyone feels the highlighted areas are something I should be concerned with. 

The betta in this photo is still fine, I've been observing it for over a week now. It's being kept floating in a cup inside a 80 degree tank. 

I would estimate this particular betta fish is about 1 year old now. 



*Sorry the pictures aren't clearer. But thought I would post them to give everyone a slightly better photo to help prevent a misdiagnosis. 

Feel free to save a copy of the photo if you want for future reference. 












http://imageshack.us/a/img254/8700/jan82013notations.jpg


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## BettAsha (Oct 26, 2012)

*Very Helpfu*

Thank so much for this information now that I'm getting ready to set up another tank I will definitely keep this in mind. This information needs to be a sticky.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

I am worried that other breeders/farms won't be as careful with their stock and then the fish available to me, the average Joe pet owner/consumer, will have this disease, and then I couldn't hope to see my betta live past a year of age.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

norico said:


> Can I ask something ?
> 
> My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
> His ski become red, and his skin was broken.
> ...


without having opened him up to look for the granulomas there is not way to tell for sure. What you CAN do is get a disinfectant FOR the mycos.. treat everything.. and start fresh watching the health of your new fish. If it was not TB.. you are no further behind. And if it was..you have at least taken the steps to kill it right then and there. 

Sorry for the loss..


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

MSG said:


> There's only so many blurry, diseased fish I can look at before I call it quits.
> 
> Anyway.... take a look at these photos, let me know if anyone feels the highlighted areas are something I should be concerned with.
> 
> ...


I would be concerned about this fish. Use good bio-security and get a good disinfectant. If he is your only fish.. he may live a while. Depends on how fast it attacks the internal organs and they fail. So if your only fish you can just ride it out and then nuke everything with the proper cleaner once he passes. Get rid of gravel and filter. If you have other fish.. avoid cross contamination as you watch him, if he declines you may want to put him down. And be careful of yourself .. no open cuts in the water. I run my tank water down the drain.. so my drains and the counter get sprayed every night.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Basement Bettas said:


> Are you an idiot or do you just choose to be ignorant? I have spelled out more ways than one I have spoken DIRECTLY with those PAID to research this disease IN FISH. Take it for what you will. Attacking me and trying to discredit my information from those MORE EDUCATED than you is not doing anything but making you look rather foolish. You obviously believe in your own importance more than those whose living is researching fish disease. Go supervise your yeast.


lol BB.. Anyone who actually takes the time to read what you say, and who can understand it know you are only repeating what actual experts have told you/warned you. I don't want you to look bad in all of this, as you had done nothing wrong in creating this thread.. Most of the people reading this (who are keeping quiet) are behind you and can see that the ones who have thrown around arguments and make claims like this can be healed in a fish are making themselves look bad.. don't want you to stoop to their level. 

This thread wasn't an opinion by one person, this thread isn't about how every fish has it and you have to keep your tank clean to avoid it. This isn't something that can be cured. It's a warning from experts in the proper field about how this is starting to become pretty wide spread, and if people can't see it for what it is, then it's on them to look silly  But most of us see it the way it is meant.. no one can take away your reputation, BB, and the people who know you, know you are one of the best out there when it comes to caring/breeding for these fish and helps others out at the drop of a dime. 

No offense to anyone here in particular, but this is this forum.. not surprising this took off the way it did :sarcastic:

Okay, now expect a 100 pictures of sick fish


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm beginning to think that my tanks have some form of mycobacterium. I have had. Few mysterious death/illnesses. I'll explain one by one....


Guppy ------
Definitely some sort of tuberculosis.... This fish had extreme bloating, and lesions.. It was like this for around two weeks, i then euthanized as it was the most humane thing to do. This escalated slowly.... MAY 2012

Guppy-------
I'm not sure on this one. He got a bit bloated and then all of a sudden died, within two to three days. OCTOBER 2012

Betta --------
He started to bloat really bad, and was on the bottom of the tank for a while. Sakura helped treat with metronidazole, worked like a charm. Came back on Monday night, died Tuesday. OCTOBER 2012 AND JANUARY 2012

Platy -------
On Tuesday night, had raised scales, fin rot, and white bit on her, all of a sudden. Died Wednesday morning. JANUARY 2013 


Platy and two guppies were from same store and lived in same tank. I use all the same supplies. 

Any thought?


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Anyone want to acknowledge what I said?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

finnfinnfriend said:


> I am worried that other breeders/farms won't be as careful with their stock and then the fish available to me, the average Joe pet owner/consumer, will have this disease, and then I couldn't hope to see my betta live past a year of age.


I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
So yea, sure, most fish have M.
But cases of MT or MM still seem uncommon..

Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
> Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
> Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
> It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
> ...


Ah, okay. Thank you for the insight...that does make sense...


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Could my tank have mycotoxins, not mycobacterium?


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I'm beginning to think that my tanks have some form of mycobacterium. I have had. Few mysterious death/illnesses. I'll explain one by one....
> 
> 
> Guppy ------
> ...


Would need more info on their care - water change schedule/%, food.. some of what you say they have doesn't apply, fin rot is due to water quality + damaged fins, bloating could be a bacteria infection, tumor, improper diet, etc. Raised scales tend to be from organs shutting down, which could be caused for any number of reasons.



finnfinnfriend said:


> Anyone want to acknowledge what I said?


Once this thing strikes you may not notice it for months and months, and by then the fish have bred multiple times. So it is very easy for it to get out there to the general public before it is caught. Not to mention a lot of mass breeders on the farms that don't always pay attention to the health of the fish.. toss away the dead, throw in a new one. Not all, but some.. just like with puppy mills/dog breeding.. there are good ones, and not so good ones. It's smaller breeders who do it from home who catch what is going on much more quicker and easier.. 

But it doesn't mean that everyone needs to worry and not buy fish.. the point of this thread is to warn people it's out there and to take precautions and try to buy the healthiest fish you see. I've purchased my fair share of store fish and only one had an issue that showed right after purchase - luckily was just internal parasitic infestation. This shouldn't stop you from buying a fish, just be more aware of the health of the fish you are purchasing. Don't try to "rescue" a sick fish, as you then run the risk of causing your other fish to become sick with one thing or another. 
So don't freak out Finn.. you can't control what happens sometimes with new fish, you can control the care they get when you bring them home. It's common for a newly purchased betta to pass away within a couple weeks of being brought home for unknown causes.. but that doesn't stop people from buying them. It happens. Just make sure to keep the tank and the equipment clean and more likely than not, your fish will be fine.


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

BettAsha said:


> Thank so much for this information now that I'm getting ready to set up another tank I will definitely keep this in mind. This information needs to be a sticky.


It would be a useful sticky if it could be re-written to be more organized and especially with less hysteria inducing language.

FOR EXAMPLE:


it is a very serious disease and in most of the fish available at your local pet shop. Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish.........

FROM ONE FREAKING FISH I destroyed 3 years of work, over 500 bettas in one afternoon. I could not even enter my fish room for days. I dealt with fin rot, lesions, lifted gill plates, dropsy and the list goes on........

ALL were diced up and tested and ALL tested positive for mycos........

Thats right.. something you have NOT heard of. Google it. And you will find it shows up in people......... 

THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE. .........

So DO NOT tell me you can bleach or use vinegar on this. DO NOT tell me it is not that serious....... 

If you have sick fish - destroy them, nuke everything and start fresh being more careful.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Put yourself in her shoes.. how would you feel if after years of working lines (remember it takes 3+ months in order to breed the next generation), and killing hundreds of your fish including ones you have fallen in love with, etc.. how would you feel? Anger? Sadness? Disheartened? Wouldn't you be a bit passionate when telling people what happened? Whether it's anger or sadness coming through.. you will still make a point in warning others, and that point can easily be very straightforward and blunt and there is nothing wrong with that.

It wasn't until she got attacked for no reason did the words get stronger.

Put yourself in her shoes and then tell me you would be very calm and pleasant when describing what you had to do to your beloved fish.

If this were to be rewritten, I would use the article she wrote along with her personal story.. but the facts are still the same.. this was a warning, not an attack, on her part.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Olympia said:


> Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...


Reading the thread backwards. (I miss a day, and miss all the fun! LOL)

No, per the SRAC publication:

 Fish do NOT get _Mycobacterium tuberculosi_s, which is "TB" that affects people.

 Fish ARE susceptible to OTHER strains of _Mycobacterium_ however -- such as _M. piscium, M. marinum , and M. fortuitum, and M. chelonea._ (1)

(1) From the article:  Mycobacterial Infections of Fish: (I've bolded the sections.)

_"Mycobacterial diseases of fish are common, particularly in intensive aquaculture systems and display aquaria. These diseases are collectively referred to as “atypical mycobacteriosis” or simply “mycobacteriosis.” *The term “fish tuberculosis” has been used in the past to refer to this group of diseases, but the term is not appropriate and should not be used. Tuberculosis is a very important disease of humans and mammals, but fish do not get tuberculosis.*

All fish are susceptible to mycobacteriosis, though some species seem to be at greater risk than others. The disease has been reported in a broad range of fish species from freshwater, marine and brackish water environments."_


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I agree, MTB is just confusing me when people say it.

Her original words were very harsh, the first post was edited for language a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Unfortunately, in her first post, she was rather rude and as Olympia said, it had to be edited. Her words were quite strong and insulting to many people. 

I understand her frustration, truly I do. I realize she has invested thousands of dollars in her fish and I am glad she wants to warn people of the danger. It's simply that there are less hysterical ways of doing it. No one is doubting that she had a problem, no one is doubting that she has taken care of it. No one is attacking her fishkeeping methods and if they are, they are in the wrong to do so because no one takes better care of fish than breeders. What is being questioned is simply how widespread the disease is. 

The bottom line is this and no one can argue with this:

Without testing/dissecting thousands if not millions of fish from pet stores around the world to see if they truly have this strain of mycobacteria, it is irresponsible of ANYONE (be they a published author or a newbie) to say that this is widespread and that every fish has it and will die from it. 

BB herself has said, as have several other published experts, that there is no way to tell if a fish truly has this strain of mycobacteria without these tests to see if the granulomas are present. Pointing out the external symptoms does not help because many diseases have symptoms that mimic each other and in addition, as Callistra pointed out, there are also many secondary diseases to be dealt with as well that could be causing physical symptoms.

If this thread continues to be a point of contention in which people take sides and accuse each other of attacking the other side, it will be closed and removed.


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

Myates said:


> What medication did you use to treat fin rot? Medications, as a whole, can be very hard on fish due to their small/fragile organs. It's very easy to overdose on the medications which could also cause a lot of health problems.
> 
> It seems you have used numerous medications on the fish.. why I am curious as to what you did for the fin rot.
> 
> ...


First, I used to Aqua Salt, but it's not woking. And he looks like not good, and I use other anti bio. So, he become recover, and I didn't use any medicine. After that, he is not good, and I use Tetracycline, but it's not working, and he has dropsy. So, I changed Fungus Clear, and he still has red in his skin. Teh next day, he gone, and his skin was broken.

I have to take care of medicine.

Thank you,


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> without having opened him up to look for the granulomas there is not way to tell for sure. What you CAN do is get a disinfectant FOR the mycos.. treat everything.. and start fresh watching the health of your new fish. If it was not TB.. you are no further behind. And if it was..you have at least taken the steps to kill it right then and there.
> 
> Sorry for the loss..


What is TB ?
Thank you so much for your advice.
I have to take care of my fish, and then new fish.

Thank you,


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I'm beginning to think that my tanks have some form of mycobacterium. I have had. Few mysterious death/illnesses. I'll explain one by one....
> 
> Guppy ------ Definitely some sort of tuberculosis.... This fish had extreme bloating, and lesions.. It was like this for around two weeks, i then euthanized as it was the most humane thing to do. This escalated slowly.... MAY 2012
> 
> ...


From Mycobacterial Infections of Fish:

_"Mycobacterium causes a chronic disease, usually characterized by wasting. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition and also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. Occasionally, deep hemorrhagic skin lesions will be seen in addition to the more common superficial lesions....."_

The article says that _"the disease can masquerade as a number of other conditions,"_ and the only way to determine whether it's a Mycobacterial infection is by having the fish analyzed by a lab. (They open it up to examine the internal organs, etc.)


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

norico said:


> What is TB ?
> Thank you so much for your advice.
> I have to take care of my fish, and then new fish.
> 
> Thank you,


TB is tuberculosis. Its scientific name is _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ (MTB). 

Fish do not get this particular disease, but they CAN get other types of Mycobacterial diseases. Therefore, a lot of people call it "Fish TB," but it's not really TB.

Taking care of your fish is important. Per the article Mycobacterial Infections of Fish, _"The disease is most often seen in animals reared under suboptimal conditions, including those that may be stressed or immunocompromised."_

This means that even if your fish has been exposed, keeping it in 'good conditions' (good water, good food, etc), you can help it to stay healthy.

Actually, I think this may be why a possible reason why it takes good breeders so long to realize their fish have it.... Good breeders keep their fish in good conditions. The result is that it's not readily apparent that their fish have been exposed....


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Sakura, I came to this thread late.. this morning, so I didn't see the first post. Based on what I have seen, I responded to how it made me feel reading everything. To me, arguing with someone warning others just annoyed me.. and I too started to become argumentative. Easy to jump on the bandwagon it seems.

As I had not seen the original post, I can't attest to how it was presented. I have seen BB in different places other than this forum, so I judged based what I had seen and experienced off of those, why I jumped to her defense. Not saying I wouldn't do it again - but my wording would most likely be different. BB is someone I respect, among some others, when it comes to breeding/caring for betta fish. I have not seen anything from her that I have ever questioned, disagreed or disliked. So I got upset reading what I did. 

Either way, we can still turn this around and have a proper discussion over it.. no reason to argue what scientists have actually said to her personally, as no one else from here was there, and she has no reason to lie. 

Okay.. I'll stop and be nice now


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Selected quotes:


Sakura8 said:


> BB herself has said, as have several other published experts, that there is no way to tell if a fish truly has this strain of mycobacteria without these tests to see if the granulomas are present. Pointing out the external symptoms does not help because many diseases have symptoms that mimic each other and in addition, as Callistra pointed out, there are also many secondary diseases to be dealt with as well that could be causing physical symptoms.


Also, these tests can not be done on live fish. 

_"Currently, there are no non-lethal tests for screening fish for mycobacterial diseases."_ 
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Myates, I understand completely and I also respect BB's knowledge. I like her FB feed a liot. No worries.

Stupid cellphone.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Hehe.. I just wanted to apologize, I can come off as blunt/rude if I'm not careful


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Well if it can not show up for months then I have no way of knowing that a potential pet will have it or not....so I am going to forget I read this at all because I never believed in buying sick looking fish and I don't breed.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much finfin. All 50+ of my bettas were sickie fish when I picked them out and not one of them have had the mystery disease or anything even similar to it. Although I normally do not go for one's on death's door either.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Myates said:


> Put yourself in her shoes.. how would you feel if after years of working lines (remember it takes 3+ months in order to breed the next generation), and killing hundreds of your fish including ones you have fallen in love with, etc.. how would you feel? Anger? Sadness? Disheartened? Wouldn't you be a bit passionate when telling people what happened? Whether it's anger or sadness coming through.. you will still make a point in warning others, and that point can easily be very straightforward and blunt and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> It wasn't until she got attacked for no reason did the words get stronger.
> 
> ...


I was thinking this same thing. Yes, there were some harsh words in there... Some I did find offensive... But I can see why. I have five bettas, and I would be absolutely devastated if this happened to them, probably beyond mad (at no one in particular but it would help to have an outlet) and also, out a lot of money. This being said, I have four tanks and one is still empty. I have no doubt it my mind that the amount this costed her far exceeded the entire amount of money I've spent on my fish in my lifetime (and its quite a bit, especially considering that my fish are only pets and I do not breed). It seriously scares the life out of me to think what would happen if this got into my fish tanks, but it is a good warning, and intended to help people. I'm sure anyone who lost that many fish in one day would act the same way... And of course she would be angry with others for not trying to get rid of this mycobacteria because she doesn't want it to end up back in any of her tanks.



That being said... I'm really confused about this, now. Considering the fact that all this scientific language does nothing but confuse me, it needs to be kind of "dumbed down" for me to understand it. I've seen a lot of scary symptoms here and also scary outcomes of this mycobacteria crud, but I also understand that there are different strains. It can live in a fish for weeks, months.. Even years, correct? Are there differences between the life spans of the fish? I'm understanding that healthy fish can live with certain strains but other strains will kill any fish it touches, correct? How much do we really know about each specific strain? Which are more dangerous? Which kill faster? Are the symptoms the same for all of them?

I guess what I would like to see is maybe a chart of some sort that kind of explains what we know about the specific strains, how long they take to kill a fish, symptoms, etc... Because this is just all over the place and I'm more confused than I was to begin with.

I guess what I'm saying, in one sentence, is that I get the point of the thread to spread awareness but with the scattered information, its very difficult for me to pinpoint what exactly I'm supposed to be aware of because I feel like this thread is not solely focused on one thing...


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

The reason this upsets me so much is because I feel like this is just Mycoplasma all over again but in fish....

For those of you who don't know, Mycoplasma is a disease that every domestic rat has. It is an autoimmune disease and it shortens the lifespan of every pet rat. If it weren't for Mycoplasma, domestic rats would living 5, maybe 6 years regularly...But because of this many don't make it past 3 or 4. every single domestic rat has it...they get it in the birth canal. Wild rats are not affected by this.

Now I am worried that it will be the same story for our pet betta fish...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

*hugs pet rats who are only 4-5 months old* 

What I'm beginning to find interesting is that when I compare the symptoms that Coppermoon describes and what BB is describing, they are different. Copper's symptoms mirror the "mystery disease" while BB's are more along the lines of what we typically think of when we think of mycobacteria: slower-moving, wasting, ulcers and sores. This makes me think that the strain of myco that Coppermoon had and what BB had must be different. BB says her is myco triplex, which is a newer strain (previously, there were only a few identified strains that caused problems in the aquarium: m. marinum, m. fortuitum, and m. chelonae). I wonder then if there is yet another new strain that Coppermoon had and which causes our mystery disease; this new strain, if does exist, seems to prey on some sort of genetic weakness in blue bettas. 

Darn, I really wish I had money to fund a study on this.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> *hugs pet rats who are only 4-5 months old*
> 
> What I'm beginning to find interesting is that when I compare the symptoms that Coppermoon describes and what BB is describing, they are different. Copper's symptoms mirror the "mystery disease" while BB's are more along the lines of what we typically think of when we think of mycobacteria: slower-moving, wasting, ulcers and sores. This makes me think that the strain of myco that Coppermoon had and what BB had must be different. BB says her is myco triplex, which is a newer strain (previously, there were only a few identified strains that caused problems in the aquarium: m. marinum, m. fortuitum, and m. chelonae). I wonder then if there is yet another new strain that Coppermoon had and which causes our mystery disease; this new strain, if does exist, seems to prey on some sort of genetic weakness in blue bettas.
> 
> Darn, I really wish I had money to fund a study on this.


BB said Coppermoon got it from the same source though...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That's interesting, she did, didn't she. 

BB, were the fish you lost to your identified strain of myco triplex blue or of the blue gene?


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> *hugs pet rats who are only 4-5 months old*


I'm sorry if I upset you . But I would be heartbroken if the same kind of thing affected all of our pet bettas as well... .


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Finn, no, you didn't upset me. I already knew about myco. You just made me appreciate my girls all the more.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

How can you know if a fish has it!?! All your fish looked healthy until some got sick right? I have a WalMart Betta, a PetSmart Betta, and some PetSmart inverts. Is any chain worse than others? Shouldd I give up on ever getting a larger sororiety tank? What about QT? Can you tell after x days that they have it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beacon (Nov 18, 2012)

I just want to say thank you to BB as I was not aware of these type of problems and am actively working on my set up to prevent trouble. I also want to acknowledge and say how sorry I am to hear that BB lost her fish, that must have been beyond heartbreaking. I can only imagine. I am very sorry.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> The reason this upsets me so much is because I feel like this is just Mycoplasma all over again but in fish....
> 
> For those of you who don't know, Mycoplasma is a disease that every domestic rat has. It is an autoimmune disease and it shortens the lifespan of every pet rat. If it weren't for Mycoplasma, domestic rats would living 5, maybe 6 years regularly...But because of this many don't make it past 3 or 4. every single domestic rat has it...they get it in the birth canal. Wild rats are not affected by this.
> 
> Now I am worried that it will be the same story for our pet betta fish...


I know that this is a random question, but is there anyway to remove the disease from the pet rat population? Like preforming a C-Section on the mother to bypass the birth canal? I know that a few would be most likely sacraficed for it and it would take some skilled people to do it, but it would help so many others!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I know that this is a random question, but is there anyway to remove the disease from the pet rat population? Like preforming a C-Section on the mother to bypass the birth canal? I know that a few would be most likely sacraficed for it and it would take some skilled people to do it, but it would help so many others!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've heard that in laboratories they have had litters without it by killing the mother before births. Then the litter has to be in a sterile invironment and never touch anything that another rat has ever touched. /:


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Bluewind, there is no way you can tell if your fish has this or not without cutting the fish open. Symptoms may or may not appear and if they do, the symptoms would be wasting away, ulcers, lethargy, and loss of appetite. However, these symptoms can mean any number of illnesses.

My best advice is to learn from BB and practice good fishkeeping, always keeping the water clean and warm, and enjoy your fish. Don't worry about this disease unless you have to.


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> I've heard that in laboratories they have had litters without it by killing the mother before births. Then the litter has to be in a sterile invironment and never touch anything that another rat has ever touched. /:


Yeah progress! It's almost like working with a child when there is maternal AIDS or HIV present. They can't cure the mother, but they can give her prenatal meds and perform a c-section to keep the child from getting the virus and then have certain criteria that must be followed after to keep the baby safe (like no breastfeeding). If it can be done with humans and has a good track record, then they should be able to eventually come up with something to help pet rats have a long and healthy life 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> Yeah progress! It's almost like working with a child when there is maternal AIDS or HIV present. They can't cure the mother, but they can give her prenatal meds and perform a c-section to keep the child from getting the virus and then have certain criteria that must be followed after to keep the baby safe (like no breastfeeding). If it can be done with humans and has a good track record, then they should be able to eventually come up with something to help pet rats have a long and healthy life
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah well I hope they apply these experiments and make domestic rats healthier, that would be great! If it ever is successful though, it will take a very long time to get to that point.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> I was thinking this same thing. Yes, there were some harsh words in there... Some I did find offensive... But I can see why. I have five bettas, and I would be absolutely devastated if this happened to them, probably beyond mad (at no one in particular but it would help to have an outlet) and also, out a lot of money. This being said, I have four tanks and one is still empty. I have no doubt it my mind that the amount this costed her far exceeded the entire amount of money I've spent on my fish in my lifetime (and its quite a bit, especially considering that my fish are only pets and I do not breed). It seriously scares the life out of me to think what would happen if this got into my fish tanks, but it is a good warning, and intended to help people. I'm sure anyone who lost that many fish in one day would act the same way... And of course she would be angry with others for not trying to get rid of this mycobacteria because she doesn't want it to end up back in any of her tanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The link to my original article was removed. It discusses the disease at length and gives links to scientific papers. Just got an over view here...

The mods would have to allow the link. Or contact me direct for more info


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Why couldn't you have the link? And how are you btw?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
> Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
> Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
> It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
> ...


This is a very pathogenic strain that is really showing its ugly head. And you should be concerned. My local pet shop fish come from Seagrest. Most of you should know that name.. and their fish are coming IN to the shops with the mycos lesions on their faces. And HOW BIG is this company? And how long do you think they have bettas? I'm sure they just toss dead fish. They do not have systems like Z-fish used for research where a population COULD be wiped out. A seller like them just turns them over. They come in, go into contaminated containers for holding, are rebagged by people not practicing bio-security.. and it shows up at the LFS. Some one dumps bettas in the cups, moves on and sticks their hands in a tank.. and now we have this in another state and other tanks. And because of terminology used in our discussion it may be a newer strain.

There is reason for concern.. not hysteria. It is not an old variety but something a bit newer.. and it is showing up in a lot of places.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> *hugs pet rats who are only 4-5 months old*
> 
> What I'm beginning to find interesting is that when I compare the symptoms that Coppermoon describes and what BB is describing, they are different. Copper's symptoms mirror the "mystery disease" while BB's are more along the lines of what we typically think of when we think of mycobacteria: slower-moving, wasting, ulcers and sores. This makes me think that the strain of myco that Coppermoon had and what BB had must be different. BB says her is myco triplex, which is a newer strain (previously, there were only a few identified strains that caused problems in the aquarium: m. marinum, m. fortuitum, and m. chelonae). I wonder then if there is yet another new strain that Coppermoon had and which causes our mystery disease; this new strain, if does exist, seems to prey on some sort of genetic weakness in blue bettas.
> 
> Darn, I really wish I had money to fund a study on this.


We got our fish from the same breeder.. and we had same symptoms. The columnaris looking stuff. She had more of the fin rot than I did.. but I still had it. I just never kept that bunch around long as I found the fins were quickly eaten to the flesh.. so destroyed those quick. Kept thinking I could "cure" the columnaris.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> Why couldn't you have the link? And how are you btw?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have another site. Purpose to have lots of betta info in one place. We are not to promote other sites here and can respect that. I can try to copy the article.. [long] but you would not get the links to scientific papers..


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Maybe even a mutation brought on by the pressures we have caused :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Here goes... it is too long so going to come in pieces...

What is Mycobacteria?


Mycobacteriosis is a disease caused by several bacterial species within the genus Mycobacterium. Some of these bacteria can cause serious diseases in humans. The species that cause Mycobacteriosis in fish are referred to as non-tuberculous bacteria. They do not tend to cause major disease in normal and healthy people. 
Non-tuberculous mycobacteria are fairly common bacteria found in the environment. This means you do not have to have fish or other living tissue for them to survive. They have been found in drinking water supplies, swimming pools, coastal waters, and aquatic facilities. 

Mycobacteriosis is of concern in fish for several reasons. First, it slowly destroys the fish as it causes a chronic wasting condition. It should be suspected when fish are in poor condition but also have scale loss, skin ulcers, or a history of reproductive problems. At times you will see deep hemorrhagic skin lesions in addition to the more common superficial lesions. The mortility level is continuous low to moderate within the affected population. This can result in significant loss of fish. 

The second reason is the disease is considered non-treatable once established in the fish host. Unfortunately, Mycobacterial diseases of fish are common. Though some species seem to be at greater risk than others, all fish are susceptible. The disease has been found in a broad range of fish and from freshwater to marine. Fish in the families Anabantidae (bettas and gouramis), Characidae (tetras), Cyprinidae (barbs, danios, koi and goldfish), and some members of the Cichlidae (including freshwater angelfish) may be more prone to the infection. This disease is also of concern in recirculating systems and once established can be difficult to eradicate. High organic loads, water quality characteristics common in intensive systems, and very crowded populations can all exacerbate the infection.



And if that is not enough, Mycobacterium infected fish do have the potential to cause disease in humans. Mycobacterial infections of fish are zoonotic, which means the organisms can cause disease in humans. Considering how prevelant the organisms are, these infections are relatively rare. Infections in people are usually associated with cleaning aquaria or from and injury resulting from contact with fish. The most common symptom in human patients is skin lesions that develop on the hands or extremities where broken skin may have come into contact with infective material. These lesions are often called “fish tank granuloma” or “fish handler’s disease.” Lesions in humans may develop from 3 weeks to 9 months after contact with infective material. Typically, mycobacterial lesions in humans are restricted to the extremities, particularly the skin though deep lesions into musculature and tendons have been reported. Rarely, systemic disease has occurred in immunocompromised individuals.
Environmental Conditions That Favor Mycos
Mycobacteria thrive under certain environmental conditions. They like warm water temperatures, low dissolved oxygen levels, acidic pH, high soluble zinc, high fulvic acid, and high humic acid. Investigators have found a much higher prevalence of mycobacteria in swamps as they have the desired environmental conditions of low levels of dissolved oxygen, low pH, high organic loads and warm water. Another investigation found a high amount of non-tuberculous mycobacteria associated with low salinity. All these conditions can be easily found in freshwater aquaculture systems. Trace amounts of certain minerals, particularly zinc and iron, have also been associated with greater numbers of mycobacteria in an environment. In addition to being present in infected fish, mycobacterial organisms also live in filter media and biofilms.

Although these mycobacteria are common in aquatic environments, it has been found that the disease in fish may be associated with certain strains rather than with the environmental conditions. Poor water conditions and husbandry, chronic stress and anything that impairs the immune system of the fish will increase the chance an infection will develop. Because some bacteria are more pathogenic than others it is critical to eliminate these specific stains from a fish room. It is the only way of stopping disease progression and death. Culling sick fish or completely destroying fish is usually recommended. Less pathogenic species of mycobacterium can be controlled by creating a less favorable environment for the organism


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> TB is tuberculosis. Its scientific name is _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ (MTB).
> 
> Fish do not get this particular disease, but they CAN get other types of Mycobacterial diseases. Therefore, a lot of people call it "Fish TB," but it's not really TB.
> 
> ...


I see TB means.
After that, I am reading the article.
Thank you a lot !


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Symptoms
Mycobacteriosis is a progressive disease that may exist for some time before it is noticeable. Younger fish infected with mycobacteriosis often show no external signs because of how slow the disease progresses. The infection becomes more serious as fish age or become stressed.

Once the bacteria become noticeable it can take on many forms and be difficult to diagnose. Affected fish may become listless and lethargic.They may also refuse to eat becoming emaciated. Fish may also become sluggish and bloated presenting a “dropsy-like” condition with extreme abdominal distention and fluid accumulation. The bloating has been reported in fish infected with M. fortuitum.



The skin is often affected. Currently we are seeing the species M. Triplex in many fish. These fish have lesions that resemble columnaris and are usually located around the head. Notice the grey areas on the face ad gills of this blue betta. Some fishes may have skin ulcerations in the muscle that rupture the skin to the outside. Others may have pigment alterations, being brighter in color or duller. Other fish will develop fin and tail rot as well as scale loss.
If infection spreads to the skeletal system, the bacteria may cause deformities such as a bent or curved spine. Fish may also be stunted and small. Small fish are often found in systems protected from natural predators. Some affected fish may not develop sexually and lack secondary sexual characteristics. A bulging of the eye or eyes is also a fairly typical feature. 

Internally the fish develop gray-white granulomas (nodules) in the liver, kidney, spleen, heart, and muscles. When the nodules develop in the organs, edema (excess fluid accumulation) may develop, as well as inflammation of the body cavity. Mycobacteriosis is a systemic disease that can affect virtually any organ system. (Noga et al.,1990).Eventually, infected fish succumb to the disease and die.

Diagnosis
If the fish have a history of progressive loss of condition, they do not respond to antimicrobial therapies and there are skin lesion, one can begin to look at Mycobacterium spp as suspect. The disease can show itself in so many different ways there is no typical presentation. Reproductive problems are often part of the history. Increased fish deaths and reproductive problems are often the first indicators that leads one to a diagnostic investigation of the fish. Though granulomas or lesions are classic with mycobacteriosis, they do not always develop. To make matter worse, Mycobacteria spp. have been isolated in tissue of a clinically normal fishthat shows no obvious disease or pathology.

Currently, there are no non-lethal tests to determine if fish have mycobacterial diseases. That means the only way to know for sure, is to submit them to a lab to get conformation. Once the Mycobacterium is found there are still more tests needed to determine the species of bacteria affecting the fish. If you have having multiple symptoms and they will not go away, it is wise to assume your fish have the mycobacteria and take appropriate action to reduce your losses and eradicate if from your fish room.

Mycobacterial infections of any fish should be considered non-treatable. There are some research reports of aquarium fish responding to antibiotic therapy, but individual fish have not been cured of the disease. Symptoms may temporarily disappear but they often reappear when antibiotics are discontinued. And again, the antibiotics do not eliminate the disease.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

History and Transmission
Once a population of fish is infected, the organism is magnified, creating a vicious cycle of infection, disease and death. Since there is no effective treatment for infected fish, disease prevention with the use of quarantine and disinfection protocols is vitally important. Infected fish release the organism from skin and gill lesions and shed them from the gastrointestinal tract. Bacteria are also released from internal organs when sick fish die and decompose. Infection can be spread when fish have direct contact with infective material or ingest infected tissue. 

In addition to fish to fish or horizontal transmission, vertical transmission meaning mother to offspring, also occurs. Less well known in egg laying species the vertical transmission is well documented in live-bearing fish. Until more research is done, and information is available, one should assume vertical transmission is possible and act accordingly. Infected broodstock will infect their young. It makes little sense to produce infected fish, as fish from infected parents will likely be stunted, have chronic mortality, pose a risk to other fish and those handling them.

Getting Rid of It
Any tank or system where fish were housed, that becomes infected, should be depopulated and completely disinfected with appropriate agents. Although one can take steps to decrease the severity of infection in a group of fish, the disease cannot be reasonably treated and cannot be cured. There are no FDA-approved treatments for mycobacteriosis in fish, nor are there any unapproved products that are effective. Depopulation of mycobacterium-infected broodstock is recommended. Fish populations that carry the infection need to be euthanized. Otherwise infected fish will be a constant source of infection to other fish and those that handle them. Maintaining a population of mycobacterium-positive fish makes little sense. There are many options for euthanizing fish. The important point is that animals are killed quickly and in a way that minimizes discomfort and distress.

What about my Lines?
For a serious breeder that has several generations of work invested in infected fish, there is a possible other option. If the fish will actually breed, you can get the off spring and raise them very separate from other fish. Once the spawn is doing well it is advisable to destroy the parents. Bear in mind these fry are probably infected from their parents so watch for stunted growth and bent top lines as they grow. Constantly look for signs of the disease in this bunch. Make sure any nets, hoses and such are completely disinfected after each use. Destroy any fish that shows signs of mycos as soon as it is detected to keep the bacteria from gaining ground. I would work your "clean" fish first then feed and clean the potentially infected offspring. Be very careful if you have other fish and systems that are clean not to cross contaminate.

As this batch of fry grow, breed the best at the earliest opportunity. Fish can be bred anywhere from 8-12 weeks of age. Remember, they came from infected parents and are probably carrying the disease. What you are trying to do is get a spawn before the disease takes hold of the fish and the egg and sperm are affected by the bacteria. You also want to avoid having it enter the water column. Do not use as breeders any fish showing signs of the disease as it will be shed in the water. And I would not allow a spawn attempt to go for long as the feces can also be introducing the bacteria to your sterile spawn tank, exposing the fry as they grow. If you get nothing after 3 days, break it down and completely sterilize it before setting it up again. Use a turkey baster and keep feces out of the tank. Do not forget to sterilize the baster. Yes this will all be a pain, and you may have to compromise on you choice of breeders, but it is a way to keep a line going if you do not want to completely destroy it.

Again watch for the development of the mycos in the F2 generation. Poor growth and bumpy top lines are a sign you still have it. Once you get a good F2 going it is wise to destroy all of F1. They came from infected parents and you increase your risk of not getting rid of the disease. Ideally that F2 generation will be clean. Use good biosecurity in your fish room, as you must proceed as if you still have the active bacteria until your fish prove clean. If all goes well you now have Mycobacteria fee fish and the line preserved. 

If you decide to do the F1 cross with only one fish that is infected, you may increase your chance of success. But you must remember this fish will now be exposed to the disease and should not be put back in contact with any other fish. There is a high probability this fish will develop the disease and succumb to it. So only do the breeding aware of the risks to the clean fish used.

Disinfection protocols
Cleaning a system that is known to be infected with mycobacterium requires extra effort. To completely eliminate mycobacteria from a system it must be depopulated and completely broken down to its component parts. All filter media and disposable materials should be discarded, including plastic tanks. The system should be thoroughly cleaned with bleach to remove and break down organic material and the biofilm that may harbor organisms inside pipes and in other inaccessible areas. Then it is essential to treat all surfaces in the system with a mycobacteriocidal agent.

Mycobacterial organisms are more resistant to disinfection protocols than most any bacteria encountered in aquatic settings. A waxy coating in the cell wall of mycobacteria gives them extra protection from many common disinfectants, including bleach. Effective mycobacteriocidal agents include Lysol® (1% benzyl-4-chlorophenol-2-phenylphenol), sodium chlorite, and ethyl alcohol at 50 or 70 percent concentrations, but not 30 percent (which requires at least 10 minutes of contact time). Chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite), even at concentrations as high as 50,000 mg/L, is only moderately effective in reducing the number of mycobacterial agents in the environment. Roccal® and Virkon®-S are ineffective. Please note the Lysol® is not the common household cleaner but a hospital strength one.

Other products that will kill the mycobacteria are listed HERE. You may talk to your local vet and explain what you are dealing with and see if he can get you a product that will work. Whatever product you use it must be used on everything. Nets, tanks, hoses and what ever else you may use in the fish room. Think water test kit tubes, eye droppers and the drain you run your water changes through. Most any product will require a certain amount of contact time to be effective. Don't take any short cuts. Since these products will also kill fish you will want to rinse the items well with water. Then come back with a strong bleach solution over the entire surface. The bleach solution can be rinsed well and the items used. If you have concern about the bleach, a soak in any water conditioner will remove the bleach.

Preventing Infection
Preventing disease is always more cost-effective and rewarding than treating it. This is especially true in the case of mycobacterium, as no vaccine or satisfactory treatment is available.Having to destroy your fish and start over is not fun. So take steps to keep this and other diseases out of your fish room.

Biosecurity in aquaculture means that aquatic organisms are protected from the introduction of new diseases. One of the basic tenets of biosecurity is avoiding the introduction of sick animals in the first place. This is accomplished by controlling the source of new animals before introducing them to established groups, and quarantining new animals upon arrival. Fish should be purchased only from trusted sources. New fish should be quarantined from established populations for at least 30 days. Even then it may not be wise to add them to any closed system.

Going forward you want to be careful about not getting this or anything else your fish room, so develop a habit of disinfecting everything before use on another tank or fish. Use one net per fish and thoroughly disinfect everything before moving on to another tank, including your hands. This is a good article on Bio-security in Aquaculture.

Moving On
As you can see, a diagnosis of Mycobacteria in a fish room can be heartbreaking. Take steps to prevent it, and if by chance you get it, it CAN be eradicated and you can move past it. And if you are one that likes to rescue sick fish from local pet shops, you may want to carefully consider what you are exposing yourself to the possibility of. Ask any one that has had to destroy fish and go through the thorough cleaning of their tanks, and they will tell you not one fish is worth the exposure.

I will be adding a photo library so you can identify this in your fish room. I have many links that I have saved and will be going through them and adding the links here. Going forward I will continue to add links to any articles I find relevant to this disease. 


Some Technical Articles ** going to have to search for these.. can't do links.

Distribution and genetic characterization of Mycobacterium chelonae in laboratory zebrafish Danio rerio

Biochemical, molecular, and virulence characteristics of selectMycobacterium marinum - click the link for the full text in pdf format

Molecular systematics support the revival of Mycobacterium salmoniphilum - bottom of the page click for full article.

Mycobacterial infection in aquarium fish

Mycobacterial Infections of Fish


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## Bluewind (Oct 24, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> I have another site. Purpose to have lost of betta info in one place. We are not to promote other sites here and can respect that. I can try to copy the article.. [long] but you would not get the links to scientific papers..


I see. I'm happy that you have all that in one place if we should ever need it. And I am sorry that you lost them. I know they were more than breeding stock to you :-(
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

*website*

Sorry for interrupted, but what do you think this article.

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2012/04/tb-in-fish-mycobacterium-tuberculosis.html

My boy ooks like same disease.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Bluewind said:


> I see. I'm happy that you have all that in one place if we should ever need it. And I am sorry that you lost them. I know they were more than breeding stock to you :-(
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks.. not every sickness is this. But you need to be aware it exists closer than is has in the past.. and just be careful.

I got the mycos diagnosis in June last year. It took till the Christmas holidays to get it nailed down to the triplex. I recently got rid of the fish I had in the barracks that were not properly cleaned. I now have several tanks of healthy and happy bettas. I still watch for it and it will probably have to be a year of no infection for me to feel like I got rid of it.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

norico said:


> Sorry for interrupted, but what do you think this article.
> 
> http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2012/04/tb-in-fish-mycobacterium-tuberculosis.html
> 
> My boy ooks like same disease.


A friend of Coppermoon that was told what I had and that her fish also were positive to mycos. The triplex comments were added after my results were given.

I agree with him on many of his articles and have learned a lot from them.. but do not feel giving the hope of treatment is fair because it is not accurate. It is a death sentence for the fish. I looked for hope.. but there really was none. I was in denial for over a week.. then finally had to accept what needed done. People are treated for this at least 9 month to a year. No way a fish will be cured in a few months. If the scientist can not save a commercial breeder or research fish.. then the reality is they could not save mine.


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> A friend of Coppermoon that was told what I had and that her fish also were positive to mycos. The triplex comments were added after my results were given.
> 
> I agree with him on many of his articles and have learned a lot from them.. but do not feel giving the hope of treatment is fair because it is not accurate. It is a death sentence for the fish. I looked for hope.. but there really was none. I was in denial for over a week.. then finally had to accept what needed done. People are treated for this at least 9 month to a year. No way a fish will be cured in a few months. If the scientist can not save a commercial breeder or research fish.. then the reality is they could not save mine.


I see..... Thank you for your comments.
I learned a lot from you.
Thank you so much for your thread.

I have to take care of my fish then.

Thank you very much !


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

No no, you can post links, just not links to other sites with fish related forums.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chardzard (Jan 7, 2013)

back in 2004 me n a friend form a small fish company ,we were inporting fish most from thailand the fish took 2 plane trips to get here at first they would be a day or 2 late not too much worry but in 2005 they was a storm that shout down miami for 3 days , the stock we had order were from guppys to koi fish, 5days after we got the fish 50% of the stock was dead n 25% was dieing ,so we set about to save wat can be save ,that when the problem started at frist it was just some of the new fish then i notice some of the older stock geting sick too to make it short u can mix 2 buggs n make a new 1 sometimes , the diseases was spred by the net so then we had about 15 nets to use so if this myco can be pass to us then we pass it back to the fish it will be stronger type wat i think u should have done was set up new filler sys, back when we had that strange out break even a drop of water off a net ment trouble at the time so when all the sick fish had die out i drain all the tanks givein them a full cleaning, i still use live plants ,i bleach n sun the gravel i use dump all the fliters couse u cant realy bleach them ,i'm glad u made that post it a bit frightening but all true at the same time ,i'll keep tabs on the post couse now i have a new team of guys to work with n some of them dont do any thing at all to improve wat they know


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

MattsBettas said:


> So sorry. This should be a sticky. And your story is why I will never use a recycled water system.


I don't use a barracks (although the lab in FL that I used said it was actually a healthier way to go). I have had to completely nuke my entire HOUSE. All my domestic betta (including my up and coming show fish), my newly acquired RARE wild betta and the 21 fry. My 10 yr old Peacock Endler colony, my 5 yr old Black Bar Endler. My new Red Cherry Shrimp colony. All my plants that don't like to be nuked...some I can't replace as the are ILLEGAL to ship in/into the state of Texas. My 75g community tank, my 55g community tank, my 5g Killi tank, my new OB Peacock Cichlid. Lets see...have I missed anything. And Why??? because I didn't know I had it and didn't clean my nets/buckets/hoses properly.

Let me tell you guys...I am sick to my stomach over having to kill all these fish. There is no cure...especially once they start showing signs. I pray to God that you guys don't ever go through what we have had to go through. I used a totally separate lab then what BB used. I got the same diagnosis as Mycos. I don't have $100s to have the strain that I had diagnosed.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That's interesting because Seagrest is widely regarded as one of the best wholesalers around. I read an article in TFK just a few months ago and their quarantine system is intensive. I'm sorry but I still have a hard time believing that so many fish are showing myco lesions and yet no one is doing anything about it. If this was as prevalent as you say, then I would have to believe more would be said about it in places like TFK and that, furthermore, if so many fish were being imported with a disease that is potentially transmittable to humans, that imports would have been stopped or curbed severely. 

What I basically mean is please stop saying so many fish have myco when you cannot prove it, BB. All you are doing is scaring people. Let's just deal with confirmed cases.

Oh, Coppermoon, I am so sorry about what you and BB have had to go through. I honestly am.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> No matter who writes a paper, that paper still only represents one person's point of view. It's important to read a variety of material on a subject in order to get a balanced perspective.


The lab I used (Deborah..Department Manager) did a google search during the time of our first phone conversation, and our 2nd conversation. She said she could not believe the amount of BAD information out there. Mycos is NOT TB. TB is reserved for Human Tuberculosis. It is in the same family (cell structure). The "point of view" that needs to be read is from labs that actually deal with this stuff.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

DiesesMadchen said:


> From a Microbiologist standpoint (yes that's me! BSAST MT(ASCP)) most bacteria disease are caused but lack of care. Most bacterial disease can be prevented by proper hygiene, or in the case of a fishroom, proper maintenance. As far as accidentally letting a bad fish in? Well, would you put an old lady with pneumonia in a room of babies? I think not. It's called quarantine for a reason. And in almost 100% of cases, a bad fish put in a healthy tank is not going to infect healthy fish. That fish will die and that will be the end of it. Healthy immune systems fight off disease.


I got in a male breeder (who had it). He was not showing signs...he was bred with 4 of my females. I raised his fry and showed them. One male I only showed 1x (Monkey Face...he looked like the original male). I bred him to a DT female. MF developed "columnaris" so I started treatment...nothing worked. MF died. DT female came down with "columnaris" Double dosed for the fin rot...showed improvement ONLY when she was on meds. Sent her with a friend of mine who is in nursing school and studying microbiology and she couldn't get the colunmaris to grow. Big Blue (my avatar) came down with it...tried a different treatment...he died. Daddy (breeder)-crossed him with a yellow female with awesome fins...he came down with it and died....yellow female was crossed with a beautiful Yellow PK male...female came down with it...PK male came down with it.

All these fish are kept in their own containers with 100% water changes.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Now I'm really scared that I'm going to get really sick from any fish that I buy...:blueworry:


I have had my hands in my fish water for the last 2 years (I got it 2 yrs ago), and I don't have it. It is possible to get it, but it is NOT TB, and it is very rare that a healthy human will get it.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> That's interesting because Seagrest is widely regarded as one of the best wholesalers around. I read an article in TFK just a few months ago and their quarantine system is intensive. I'm sorry but I still have a hard time believing that so many fish are showing myco lesions and yet no one is doing anything about it. If this was as prevalent as you say, then I would have to believe more would be said about it in places like TFK and that, furthermore, if so many fish were being imported with a disease that is potentially transmittable to humans, that imports would have been stopped or curbed severely.
> 
> What I basically mean is please stop saying so many fish have myco when you cannot prove it, BB. All you are doing is scaring people. Let's just deal with confirmed cases.
> 
> Oh, Coppermoon, I am so sorry about what you and BB have had to go through. I honestly am.


Thank you. I do think the main reason this is going on now is that people don't know what to look for. Both BB and I got fish from US breeders. I contacted the breeder I got my fish from and this breeder had no idea. Neither BB nor I meant to create mass hysteria, but for us to loose so much work and then have it blown off (said with tongue in cheek)...for me, that was more then I could take. I am a small breeder compared to BB, so I can't imagine what she went through to destroy her fish. I put all my babies in a single bowl, told them I was so sorry, added the clove oil, covered the bowl and cried all the way to work. I got home and cried again when I bagged them up. We just want to make sure that correct care info is out there. I'm glad to see the post of something a little easier access, to kill this with.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Myates- all but the betta were in the same tanks. The guppy platy tank has live plats added recently as we'll as 40% water changes weekly so it can't be water quality. The columnar is type stuff that basement betas mentioned was what was on my platy? It was little white bits hanging off her gills. Is it safe to add another fish to my betas old tank? Once I do a 100% water change or two of course.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Coppermoon, you make me want to cry for you and BB.  I can only imagine how it must have felt for the two of you to go through this.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I have a question about disinfecting... You can't disinfect silk plants, can you? Like, what will soak up the cleaning agents and what won't? If I were to soak silk plants in like, vinegar or bleach or something that will kill TB, is it possible to get it out of the silk plants and decor? Or does everything but the tank need to be tossed?

Thanks.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> That's interesting because Seagrest is widely regarded as one of the best wholesalers around. I read an article in TFK just a few months ago and their quarantine system is intensive. I'm sorry but I still have a hard time believing that so many fish are showing myco lesions and yet no one is doing anything about it. If this was as prevalent as you say, then I would have to believe more would be said about it in places like TFK and that, furthermore, if so many fish were being imported with a disease that is potentially transmittable to humans, that imports would have been stopped or curbed severely.
> 
> What I basically mean is please stop saying so many fish have myco when you cannot prove it, BB. All you are doing is scaring people. Let's just deal with confirmed cases.
> 
> Oh, Coppermoon, I am so sorry about what you and BB have had to go through. I honestly am.


They DON'T know. I pointed them out to the lfs on more than one occasion and even got them info on the disease. They REFUSE to even take the fish OFF the shelves and STILL sell them. Complacency and ignorance.. and that word I am not allowed to use here.. stupidity.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

columnaris is little white fluff hanging off of your fish isn't it?


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> columnaris is little white fluff hanging off of your fish isn't it?


The picture I posted I thought the grey fluff was columnaris. IT IS MYCOS. If you see that stuff in your fish, and it does not respond to meds for columnaris.. you have mycos in your fish. The information has been pasted in this thread on how to deal with it. Not every one can put down fish. I look for the smallest trace of it and act immediately. So far we are good. I still have 3 large barrack systems to clean and it is going to take a lot of time to make sure every nook and cranny gets hit with the proper concentration of antibacterial. NOT going to do this again because I was not thorough.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

AyalaCookiejar said:


> I have a question about disinfecting... You can't disinfect silk plants, can you? Like, what will soak up the cleaning agents and what won't? If I were to soak silk plants in like, vinegar or bleach or something that will kill TB, is it possible to get it out of the silk plants and decor? Or does everything but the tank need to be tossed?
> 
> Thanks.


I would say yes silk plants can be cleaned with the TB killer. You will have to take extra measures to make sure you get ALL the cleaner off. I am using it on live plants and wiping each leaf, stem, root off. Plants are pissed at me, but are coming back (cept the wisteria). My cleaner..I can feel it on the plants, so I continue to rinse under running water until it is gone.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Basement Bettas said:


> The picture I posted I thought the grey fluff was columnaris. IT IS MYCOS. If you see that stuff in your fish, and it does not respond to meds for columnaris.. you have mycos in your fish.


Not necessarily. There are strains of columnaris that are resistant to meds and in addition, some fish themselves may simply be too far gone for medication to be effective. 

For those who may just be coming to this thread I want to post a warning:

Not every hard to cure disease in your fish is mycobacteria.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Not necessarily. There are strains of columnaris that are resistant to meds and in addition, some fish themselves may simply be too far gone for medication to be effective.
> 
> For those who may just be coming to this thread I want to post a warning:
> 
> Not every hard to cure disease in your fish is mycobacteria.



That may be true. But having a disinfectant on hand that will kill the mycos will wipe out anything else your fish may have gotten. So when you get new fish and restart.. there is NOTHING there that may infect them.

And from what I was told.. the current columnaris is not that resistant.. IF columnaris.. it should respond to meds.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I have seen columnaris that did not even show the usual signs (fluff, patches, sores, deteriorating scales) until she already had dropsy. Only true sign: lethargy. And I was too late. I am so used to the common signs :/

I have to agree that not every hard to kill disease is this disease. Be reminded as there are always different strains of the worst diseases, some strains you can kill... Some get stronger. Some are easily mistaken for something else. Making sure that YOUR fish are in tip top condition, makes it a lot easier to know when something is wrong. An already sick fish... You won't ever know if he is "lazy" (i.e. cold water) or really sick.

BUT if you do feel you suspect a contagious disease has hit, just throw everything out. All else fails, throw it out. Gravel especially for the stronger but not "impossible" to get rid of diseases, I usually toss the gravel and porous ornaments such as fabric plants.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

There are, according to *The Super Simple Guide to Common Fish Diseases* by Lance Jepsen, 3 types of bacterial infections: peracute, that strikes without warning and kills without external signs; acute, the classical example with the fuzzies and septicemia; and chronic, a slow-moving case in which ulcers are formed in the body cavity due to the length in which a fish has this. This means any bacterial infection, not limited to myco.

And this is important. Furthermore, the book notes "There is a wide range of clinical signs linked to this disease, and _many parasitic, bacterial, and fungal diseases can mimic mycobacteriosis_." italics emphasis mine


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

hrrrmmm.. need to check that book out.

And I agree.. the signs of mycos are signs of many other diseases. And with fish and no lab, it is hard to know what you really have. The mycos info is just to keep in the back of your head. And the use of a disinfectant that will kill it will go a long way towards killing anything else unwanted in your fish room. thanks for the reference. going to go check it out.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yes, that book has been one of the most informative and helpful that I have.


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## Firefly85 (Jul 11, 2012)

wasn't trying to wake this thread up, but I can't help but wonder some of the other mods opinions on Mycobacteria, as in all the strains that affect fish, also which ones and what are the chances of a person contracting it?

I know i have read what i can find but there seems to be only real threat to those with immune deficiencies and open wounds to hands.

I was put off from keeping fish for a while after learning about myco, I am such a germophobe, even though I have kept almost every type of pet. 

Since I am back in the hobby, this alarms me, because So many pet store workers have no qualms at all in placing there hands directly in tanks. 
I know half of them don't even clean floors/ equipment regularly.
I find my self wondering how often outbreaks actually occur in humans? 
in fish?
Are we making more of it than need be?
To be honest it freaks me out knowing it can happen. 
Think about how many ignorant people are out there, but the old saying goes ignorance is bliss.
It is very difficult to be educated, and logical, as well as the average everyday joe. i know the members here range from all walks of life and education levels. 
I truly wonder how any of us can put it out of our minds, I know it occurs naturally.
Should we really be using more harsher chemicals for disinfecting, isn't this why super bugs occur?
I am pondering using more than good old bleach, vinegar and Alcohol. I do want to keep myself and family safe, but I just don't know what to believe at times. 
I read in one scientific article that 90% alcohol will kill about anything if left on for 10 min or left to dry.

I am sorry for rambling I just think it is a good/ important topic to discuss. I am late to the party anyone have further thoughts?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I am currently reading a paper about a group of people studied that contracted M. marinum. The photos are nasty. From what I can tell most of these people had immunodeficiencies already and most were older. I'll have to get back to you when I'm done analyzing it.
Currently, the people with the worst symptoms were the last to start seeking medical attention and that is a big aspect of the disease.
Nasty marks on the area affected, some were operated on, haven't read the side effects. One guy got it in his eye (he was fishing and the hook got into his eye). So it seems you do need open wounds as well.

The truth is that there is so much more to this disease than this thread says, and it's easy to freak people out with all this misinformation here... Things such as saying "TB" (no none of your fish have tuberculosis and you will not get tuberculosis from your fish). 

I really have to study for finals but hopefully will follow up properly soon...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Firefly - 20 yrs of fish keeping.. never got an illness/sick from it, and never had an outbreak other than 1 ich attack in 1 tank. It's good to be cautious and to be aware, take precautions.. but don't let it force you to stop, or not want to do it. More than likely you won't run into any issues such as this. People who just get one or few bettas for pets have a lower risk. It's more for people who keep dozens, who are always purchasing/ordering/shipping/breeding/etc that have a higher risk of getting this as many fish are shared and sold from all over the world.

So enjoy the hobby, take your normal sanitizing precautions and be aware - make sure to wash hands before/after, use those long rubber gloves they sell for fish keeping if you want, etc. But don't let it stop you in any way.. I remember hearing about "fish TB" for the first time back in the mid-late 90s and I worried.. but eventually just forgot about it because the longer I kept/bred fish, the more of a routine I got into taking care of making sure things/me are sanitized


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Firefly85 said:


> wasn't trying to wake this thread up, but I can't help but wonder some of the other mods opinions on Mycobacteria, as in all the strains that affect fish, also which ones and what are the chances of a person contracting it?
> 
> I know i have read what i can find but there seems to be only real threat to those with immune deficiencies and open wounds to hands.
> 
> ...


Used to be the mycos was something really not seen. So a bunch of us breeders got it.. we are kinda a closed circle. No big deal. But walking into 6 lfs and seeing fish with the lesions was a bit unnerving. And to find all 6 bought their fish from same place. Now not good. And management refuses to destroy the fish and take precautions is real bad news for something that spreads as easily as this does as we not have the possibility of it spreading to other tanks. Other fish not as vulnerable as a betta my end up being a carrier.

So this forum is huge and a way to get the info out that we may be seeing the beginning of a real mess. If you buy fish from lfs REALLY look over all fish and make sure the entire stock of them are healthy. Keep any new fish in quarantine 60 days and REALLY watch them for the crud that gets on their face. If fast moving fin rot shows up or the lesions take action quickly. 

Get a cleaner capable of killing mycos and use it. And if you don't buy fish and every body is healthy then just enjoy your fish. Look at you fish room and start to think of things you do that may spread disease.. like velvet. And starring thinking bio-security and avoid transferring ANYTHING.

This is not the time to rescue half dead fish as the chances of it being a simple fin rot it slim.


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

I've seen some fish at walmart recently with pretty aggressive fin rot, but the last time I checked they only had one female left. She looked alright, but a little pale. So either they all died or most of them were purchased.

The last four fish I have purchased, one was from Earl May and the other three from a private breeder. So far, they are all healthy, besides the fact that the male from Earl May has gone blind and he's prone to constipation issues.

Does anyone by chance know where Earl May gets their fish from? Are they all the same, for the most part?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If people want to rescue sick fish, that's their perogative, BB. Chances are it's not myco but the effects of ammonia poisoning. 

I'm throwing this out there as a warning to everyone:

*Please be careful about accusing stores, suppliers, and wholesalers about selling fish with mycobacteriosis. You cannot prove that a fish has this disease without dissecting it, nor can you tell it has this disease simply by eyeballing it in a store. To accuse a business of selling diseased fish could get you into legal trouble and we at the forum do not wish this to happen. It is bad practice to make accusations that can't be substantiated. Everyone, please refrain from this for your own sakes.*


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## Firefly85 (Jul 11, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I am currently reading a paper about a group of people studied that contracted M. marinum. The photos are nasty. From what I can tell most of these people had immunodeficiencies already and most were older. I'll have to get back to you when I'm done analyzing it.
> Currently, the people with the worst symptoms were the last to start seeking medical attention and that is a big aspect of the disease.
> Nasty marks on the area affected, some were operated on, haven't read the side effects. One guy got it in his eye (he was fishing and the hook got into his eye). So it seems you do need open wounds as well.
> 
> ...




We may have very well read the same/similar paper, i know one guy lost half a finger and the pics of M. marinum are grotesque. 


*Myates* - I have dealt with Ich a few times, and whatever caused all my guppies to die off right before i took a long break from the hobby, its a long story but could have been a combination of bad water at the place we moved to, me trying to save them / to many meds, and so on and so forth. they died quickly it was traumatizing for me and i didn't keep fish for like 3 years after that. i was burnt out on it then. 

*BB* - sorry for your losses, and i know as we all were beginners once and even experienced fish keepers can make the quarantine mistake. I think it has to do with the excitement and love of fish.
What is the cleaner you are using to kill mycos? do you think there are anymore natural safer cleaners. 
I have other pets and young children, not to mention other people in the house. I like to be as green as possible.
Ps. I don't try and rescue sick fish, but I am working on acquiring fish for community/sorority tank .

*Ayala* - not sure where Early May gets there fish now, but long ago here where I live they used to be my absolute go to place for all my pets, they had all local breeders back in the day, but that was when I was a kid and they, shut down our only location with pets years ago.


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

Basement Bettas said:


> A friend of Coppermoon that was told what I had and that her fish also were positive to mycos. The triplex comments were added after my results were given.
> 
> I agree with him on many of his articles and have learned a lot from them.. but do not feel giving the hope of treatment is fair because it is not accurate. It is a death sentence for the fish. I looked for hope.. but there really was none. I was in denial for over a week.. then finally had to accept what needed done. People are treated for this at least 9 month to a year. No way a fish will be cured in a few months. If the scientist can not save a commercial breeder or research fish.. then the reality is they could not save mine.


Sorry for interrupt again.
I am sorry for you lost fishes.
I would like to know MTB is active whole a year ?
Do you know that ?


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

norico said:


> Sorry for interrupt again.
> I am sorry for you lost fishes.
> I would like to know MTB is active whole a year ?
> Do you know that ?


1) "Fish TB" is not the same as _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ (MTB). 

MTB is the tuberculosis that occurs in people (and mammals). However, fish are not affected by this particular type of Mycobacteria.*

2) OTHER type of Mycobacteria DO affect fish, such as _Mycobacterium marinum (MM), Mycobacterium fortuitum, Mycobacterium triplex (MT),_ etc.

3) All strains of Mycobacteria are protected by a waxy coating. It can survive on dry surfaces for months.** I read somewhere that it can live in distilled water for a year, but I can't find that source right now. 

Sources:
* https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/231/
** http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/6/130


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

This may be a dumb question but what about Aeromonas bacteria? That also will not respond to meds and there is no way to ill the bacteria, yet the symptoms are similar to Myco and columnaris...


> When infected with Aeromonas hydrophila, fish develop ulcers, tail rot, fin rot, and hemorrhagic septicemia. Hemorrhagic septicaemia causes lesions that lead to scale shedding, hemorrhages in the gills and anal area, ulcers, exophthalmia, and abdominal swelling.


_*Aeromonas hydrophila*_ is a heterotrophic, Gram-negative, rod-shaped bacterium mainly found in areas with a warm climate. This bacterium can be found in fresh or brackish water. It can survive in aerobic and anaerobic environments, and can digest materials such as gelatin and hemoglobin. _Aeromonas hydrophila_ was isolated from humans and animals in the 1950s. It is the most well known of the six species of Aeromonas. It is resistant to most common antibiotics and cold temperatures.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Tikibirds said:


> This may be a dumb question but what about Aeromonas bacteria? That also will not respond to meds and there is no way to ill the bacteria, yet the symptoms are similar to Myco and columnaris...


Basement Betta's and Coppermoon's fish were infected with Mycobacteria. This was verified by lab analysis. 

But, as Sakura and others have pointed out, a lot of other diseases have similar symptoms, and are NOT caused by Mycobacterial infection. 

So, yes, a fish COULD be infected with something else, and display similar symptoms. 

The only way to know for sure whether the fish has Mycobacterial infection is to send it to a lab for analysis. (As Coppermoon and BB did.)


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## norico (Jun 3, 2012)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> 1) "Fish TB" is not the same as _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ (MTB).
> 
> MTB is the tuberculosis that occurs in people (and mammals). However, fish are not affected by this particular type of Mycobacteria.*
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for teach me.
I just want to know if it's relationship the season or not. I'll read those article. 

Thank you very much !


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## FishyFishy89 (Jul 3, 2011)

Pm for link to informative article.


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## Lady Courage (Oct 2, 2012)

I am almost 100% sure Dr. Seuss has this. I just spent the last few hours reading through the info on these threads, both the original "mystery disease" thread and this one.

The reasons I think this are:


He has all the symptoms of the fast moving mystery disease. Overnight swim bladder infection and massive fin rot. He looks awful, he can't swim, he's gasping as though he can't breathe...
He's recently always had little "scratches" on his face. They popped up after I introduced live plants and a piece of driftwood to his tank, but he was otherwise happy, healthy and normal. Because he likes to squeeze in close to the driftwood (silly fish), I just assumed they were indeed scratches on his face. Now, looking at pictures of mycobacteria "lesions", I realize those could have been mild lesions on his face.
I actually have had some serious issues with pond snails just dying randomly. Couldn't figure out why! This would explain that entirely...
I am heartbroken. I hate to see my fishy suffer. He's such a little personality.
I also invested a LOT of money into this, for me, a college kid. I'm just sick at that loss as well... 



So... I do have some info now. I know I need to put my poor little fishy down. I know I need to also euthanize the shrimp who inhabit the tank. They can't be allowed to spread the disease. 



But I still have some questions for y'all:


Where can I send Dr. Seuss' body to be tested? How do I even ask for the right testing so I know if he has an aggressive strain of mycobacteria? Or should I even bother and just treat it like it IS mycobacteria because it's so likely?
My tank is a Fluval View- expensive and plastic. Can I save it?? Not the filter media, I know, but the tank... It's an $80 tank and if I can save it with reasonable security of NOT striking down another fish, I will. But from just a $$ standpoint, if there isn't really a way to disinfect it safely, it could end up costing me much much more money to keep it.
My plants... My precious, beautiful, healthy plants... I'm almost 100% sure that the mycobacteria came in on those. It was only after that I saw the "scratches" on Dr. Seuss' face. Can I disinfect them with reasonable security? I saw someone say she was wiping them down with TB disinfectant... The Barbicide Plus? I don't actually have that many plants, the View is a small tank. They just cost me so. much. money. And they are so healthy!
I think that's all for now... Excuse me while I go prepare to put my poor baby down... This is such a sad day.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi Lady Courage. I'm so sorry to hear about your fish and your shrimp. 

I've never euthanized shrimp before but I know that they are extremely sensitive to copper. Coppersafe might work. I'm not sure if shrimp can carry myco or not though.

For disinfecting the tank, I would contact Coppermoon. She will have the info you need on what will and won't disinfect myco and what can be saved and what can't.

View Profile: Coppermoon


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## AyalaCookiejar (Nov 20, 2012)

If you are able to confirm its Mycos I think it is a good idea to euthanize the shrimp. I know that Basement Bettas disinfects absolutely everything that the water comes in contact with. Even if the shrimp aren't affected by Mycos, they would still infect a new tank, probably (in a similar way to how sharing equipment would).

However, disinfectant could be used on equipment but not on the shrimp, obviously.

Mycos is such a horrible bacteria. I'm deathly afraid of ever seeing it in my tanks, especially with all the money I've put into fish keeping. And I know that that's not even a fraction if what breeders have put into it.


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

This is a very interesting thread. My local Petsmart has a suspicious amount of betta deaths. All of them died the same way since December 2012. They all had curved spines, red gills, and pale bodies. Every time I went back I thought it was the same fish and they hadn't disposed of them in the three weeks I wasn't there... 
In Bio we learned that dangerous bacteria is present everywhere, but won't affect you unless your immune system is compromised, such as when the HIV virus infects human and destroys helper T cells. Which eventually causes AIDS allowing rare, but deadly infections to set in. People who have not been infected with HIV are easily able to fight of these infections. 
Perhaps it could be some sort of bacteria or virus that compromises the immune system allowing dangerous strains of myco to set in??


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

DoctorWhoLuver, it is the same with fish. All fish have some amount of bacteria, including mycobacteria, present in their systems at all times. Like HIV, mycobacteria doesn't become a problem unless the fish's immune system becomes stressed and compromised. These stresses typically (but not always) include poor conditions and dirty water. 

I am curious though if you have ever seen on of the Petsmart bettas before it died. Some fish will curve up after death so we can't completely attribute curved spines to mycobacteria.


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

Oh yeah; I wasn't saying it was myco, though I guess I could have been implying it x] it could be anything. But the all the fish where in an upside down u-shape and floating. Most of the dead fish I see are lying or floating, but not in a prominent u-shape. I'm just suspicious of that since all they fish seem lethargic. I haven't actually seen the fish die, just the dead bodies. It's very sad though.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Poor things. Yeah, in conditions like that it could almost anything that killed them.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

[quote-Sakura8]
For disinfecting the tank, I would contact Coppermoon. She will have the info you need on what will and won't disinfect myco and what can be saved and what can't.

View Profile: Coppermoon[/quote]

Thank you Sakura8!



Lady Courage said:


> I am almost 100% sure Dr. Seuss has this. I just spent the last few hours reading through the info on these threads, both the original "mystery disease" thread and this one.
> 
> The reasons I think this are:
> 
> ...


The lab I used ONLY does commercial fish. I used to supply my local with all their Betta until they started showing the fin rot, then of course I quit until I could figure out what it was. I don't have the link to the lab, as I am on my work computer, but it is in FL, and most all the links for this are from the lab. They do give links for hobbiest/pet owners that are fish doctors.

Disinfecting your tank. ((PM me WHERE you are in Texas)) I have some cleaner that you can use, but be VERY careful with it...I had it in a cheap spray bottle at full strength and it eventually ate through the plastic. OR you can bleach the tank (after wiping it down very well) for 24 hrs with a heavy bleach solution, then let it set in the Texas sun for about a week or so. Being dry for over a month will kill this...and the UV from the sun aids in it. IF you want some of the cleaner, I can get some to you if you live close enough that we can meet. Just make sure you clean VERY well to rid of residue...keep cleaning with as hot of water as you can stand until you don't smell it any more.


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## Lady Courage (Oct 2, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Hi Lady Courage. I'm so sorry to hear about your fish and your shrimp.
> 
> I've never euthanized shrimp before but I know that they are extremely sensitive to copper. Coppersafe might work. I'm not sure if shrimp can carry myco or not though.
> 
> ...


Thank you.  Ah, that's a thought! I was wondering if the clove oil would work too? I don't know, haven't done any research yet. The copper is a reeeeally good idea, thank you!



AyalaCookiejar said:


> If you are able to confirm its Mycos I think it is a good idea to euthanize the shrimp. I know that Basement Bettas disinfects absolutely everything that the water comes in contact with. Even if the shrimp aren't affected by Mycos, they would still infect a new tank, probably (in a similar way to how sharing equipment would).
> 
> However, disinfectant could be used on equipment but not on the shrimp, obviously.
> 
> Mycos is such a horrible bacteria. I'm deathly afraid of ever seeing it in my tanks, especially with all the money I've put into fish keeping. And I know that that's not even a fraction if what breeders have put into it.


Agreed, and thank you. You're right, now that I'm a little less panicked and thinking more clearly, I do want to *make sure* it is Mycos before I take any drastic steps. But first I need to find someone I can get to test Doc's body... (ugh, sounds so callus! My poor fishy!!)



Coppermoon said:


> The lab I used ONLY does commercial fish. I used to supply my local with all their Betta until they started showing the fin rot, then of course I quit until I could figure out what it was. I don't have the link to the lab, as I am on my work computer, but it is in FL, and most all the links for this are from the lab. They do give links for hobbiest/pet owners that are fish doctors.
> 
> Disinfecting your tank. ((PM me WHERE you are in Texas)) I have some cleaner that you can use, but be VERY careful with it...I had it in a cheap spray bottle at full strength and it eventually ate through the plastic. OR you can bleach the tank (after wiping it down very well) for 24 hrs with a heavy bleach solution, then let it set in the Texas sun for about a week or so. Being dry for over a month will kill this...and the UV from the sun aids in it. IF you want some of the cleaner, I can get some to you if you live close enough that we can meet. Just make sure you clean VERY well to rid of residue...keep cleaning with as hot of water as you can stand until you don't smell it any more.


Thank you very much Coppermoon!! OK, I'll dig through this thread and find those links.

Did you use the Barbicide Plus thing? We do have a Sally's here, so I think I could snag some. Thank you so much for the offer of giving me some, but I'm starting to think it might be a good idea to have a nice stash of that stuff on hand... I'll PM you my location, but it's possible that gas money would cost as much as buying a full bottle.  Thank you so much!!


Ugh, this mycos is frightening me! I'm not a hysterical _or_ germaphobic person (far from it), but I am scared by fatal diseases that do not respond to treatment. I know I personally won't get sick, nor my family, but I love my fishies. They are such wonderful little creatures. 

So. I'm really hoping it ISN'T mycos. But just in case, I do want to clean everything crazy good, as if it's mycos, no matter what. I also want to send Doc's body in for testing, before I euthanize my shrimp (who are very healthy btw) and ditch my plants.


Also, some new developments have come about in Doc's condition... And I started a new thread about it. I realize it's going to be pretty controversial, but after a surprise improvement, I feel like I have to try this.

Because: 


I can't know for sure it's mycos until/if he passes
I have no other fish
We don't know very much about this disease
As far as we know it always ends in death anyway...
What do we have to lose? Here's the thread, if you wanna keep up with what's up with Doc.

Despite my taking new steps with different treatment to see if Doc could possibly heal from mycos (I know every fish has always relapsed...), I'm still preparing for the worst. All the odds point towards my needing to put my fishy down and for him to have mycos. So... That's what I'm going to prepare for.


Thank you so much, everyone, for your help and support. I'm pretty stressed out over here, but I can't tell you how much it helps that y'all know what's going on, understand and are ready to help me. I just... I can't even express how grateful I am. So thank you. <3


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## Naladari (Jan 4, 2013)

So apparently mycos could potentially be treated by bacteriaphages


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

Bacteriophages are viruses that affect bacteria. How are they doing that? That's really interesting


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## Naladari (Jan 4, 2013)

DoctorWhoLuver said:


> Bacteriophages are viruses that affect bacteria. How are they doing that? That's really interesting


I was just chatting with the molecular biology professor at my school and she mentioned it. Let me find the link. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsmxjA19fWo
there is a video of what happens..sorta

But apparently there are bacteriophages that are applied to skin infections pretty much like sunscreen that gets rid of the infection.
That being said, if you could get a sample of the phage, create a water solution of it and apply that to the fishtank it should theoretically kill the mycos


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## DoctorWhoLuver (Feb 23, 2012)

That sounds really effective! Lol Funny that viruses can be used to kill bacteria.


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## Artemis (Mar 9, 2013)

Sticky please!


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## bettalover2000 (May 10, 2011)

My fish had weird swelling, was staying on the bottom only coming up for food, and had SLIGHT pineconing at times. I had to arouse her to get her to get air.

http://www.bettafish.com/album.php?albumid=5243

This an album of some photos, the first one was in the early stage, the other two I don't even know if they were from the disease.
I already buried her a few months ago, otherwise I would have sent her for research. Sorry!


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## ruddeegi (Apr 20, 2013)

I know the feeling I had 3/ 3 year old Goldfish in a 10 gallon and I 
moved My Dojo Loach to thier tank so I could Treat The Tropical fish Tank Because a single Gourami had the Disease and You cant treat the scaless dojo
well every thing but the cory cats in both Tanks died I am afraid to even replenish the clean 10 gallon with fish and afraid to move the cory into the now seemingly stable tropical tank for fear of killing every new resident in it


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Seriously... Could someone PLEASE make this a sticky? The information on here is hard to find and potentially could be (literally) a lifesaver for me.


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## Beckylovesbettas (Jun 30, 2013)

Hello, this is my very first post but I have been obsessively reading these boards for a week now (while on vacation). I had originally planned on getting one betta to replace my beloved betta Gilbert who passed on in the winter storm that knocked out our power for 3 days. Then I started reading about rescues and thought that was a great idea! Then I started reading about diseases and read this whole thread, I was scared to death of even getting a betta after reading the first few pages, everything was presented as dire...I was even paranoid about changing my guppies water without a full blown nuclear fallout getup on! I have 13 female and 8 male guppies in two sexed tanks. Anyways, I made it to the end of this thread and will be extra careful with cleaning procedures, have bleach, alcohol and Barbasol (sp?) on hand but will still get a betta or two. I really learned a lot from this thread.


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## Coppermoon (May 8, 2012)

Beckylovesbettas said:


> Hello, this is my very first post but I have been obsessively reading these boards for a week now (while on vacation). I had originally planned on getting one betta to replace my beloved betta Gilbert who passed on in the winter storm that knocked out our power for 3 days. Then I started reading about rescues and thought that was a great idea! Then I started reading about diseases and read this whole thread, I was scared to death of even getting a betta after reading the first few pages, everything was presented as dire...I was even paranoid about changing my guppies water without a full blown nuclear fallout getup on! I have 13 female and 8 male guppies in two sexed tanks. Anyways, I made it to the end of this thread and will be extra careful with cleaning procedures, have bleach, alcohol and Barbasol (sp?) on hand but will still get a betta or two. I really learned a lot from this thread.


Getting a pet store fish is ok...but AVOID the sick ones. I know everyone wants to buy the skinny fin rotty ones, but for me...THOSE were what I went through with the mycos. A healthy active fish is one I'd go for.

...Just be careful with your cleaning 

Lori


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

If your only getting one betta, you don't have a ton at stake. Avoid the sick ones (exceptions like fin rot, sbd, etc apply), and you really should be fine.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Just checking to see if replies work in here.


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