# Inbreeding?



## Perocore (Oct 4, 2013)

Okay, I know breeding siblings in invertebrates is perfectly safe, but I know that it is _not_ in fancy guppies, especially sibling pairs. If you end up with a 3rd gen. inbred fancy guppy it will have severe genetic defects, usually problems with their spine that result in difficulties swimming and sometimes death.

So how is it okay with bettas? What are the side effects? Have you noticed genetic deformities that limit the betta's ability to function (like it does in guppies)? 

I just see a lot of people breeding siblings, which is about as closely related as it gets, and I can't see how this is healthy for the fish.

I don't mean to sound like I am bashing breeders, I just want to know if it is actually a safe thing to do? As mentioned, I don't see much an of an issue in inbreeding inverts because as far as anyone can tell there are no negative effects, which is actually really good considering how many tarantula species are endangered. But I just don't understand how something that causes deformities in guppies can be safe for bettas? Again, _not_ trying to bash, just trying to _understand_.

Thanks,
Pero


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## nicktide (Dec 10, 2013)

Not sure of why it is ok, just that many breeders will often breed two lines that are related (such as half siblings) then cross them every 3 or so generations. Some fish can handle it better than others.
Many African cichlids are so specific to a part of a lake that there was only ever a few fish exported and all that are available were from those fish. I read that yellow labodochromis all came from 1 pair and their offspring.
One possibility is because in the wild they are often in isolated communities and inbreeding is the only way to survive so they evolved to be able to handle it. I am no scientist... just a thought.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Lots of breeders breed sibling pairs for a long time... Usually up to F6. Bettas are pretty resilient to it, I'm yet to see a betta that has been affected by inbreeding. I would say that as long as you breed the right fish and don't do it excessively, there probably won't be major side effects from it. Believe me, inbred fish are perfectly healthy fish, and you probably won't go anywhere as a show breeder if you don't line/in breed.

Aren't fancy guppies really inbred to begin with? I read that they have been inbred so much over the years that they are not even a good recommendation for beginner hobbyists anymore because of their susceptibility to disease.


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## nicktide (Dec 10, 2013)

Maybe that's why you aren't supposed to breed them to siblings anymore...? Too inbred to begin with. Maybe it is just bad information put out there by breeders to protect their lines. I know that is old school but back in the 80's and early 90's breeders put lots of bad info out there to slow down would-be breeders.


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## Perocore (Oct 4, 2013)

Nicktide, it doesn't seem too excessive at that point. I just get kind of freaked out when I see Targaryen fish floating around; very long line of full-blooded sibling pairings. That last point would make sense, if it is necessary for survival then they would be less likely to suffer from the doubling of potentially bad genes that occurs in other species. 

MattsBettas, not from my experience. I lost a really nice line of fancy guppies to TB, but most fish die when exposed to TB. My current fancy guppies were in awful condition when I got them, and I expected them to be very much not alive the next morning, but it's been a few weels and they are probably the healthiest, most active fish in the house. Actually from what I've seen so far personally guppies are pretty hardy little fish. And I'm pretty sure that could apply to a lot of animals...pure bred animals in general tend to be very inbred because it is necessary to produce pure strains. 

And isn't that much inbreeding a little excessive? I wouldn't mind trying to find an article on inbreeding in bettas, but up to Gen 7..? I do know that line breeding is necessary to produce really nice fish (and reptiles and dogs and horses and...) but I've seen some of it where it just seems like too much. I guess I'm kind of wondering what constitutes as responsible (and moral) line breeding in bettas. 

Then it leads one to wonder that say they added F7, F8, etc, what would be the chances of a genetic anomaly, such as the panda shepherd seems to be in GSDs? For example a very long line of pure orange bettas (all sibling-sibling matches), and then a random green fry? Does such a thing ever occur?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Some say it is safe to inbreed them till F8. Most say it's safe til F6. But I wouldn't chance going that far. I usually only inbreed till F4 which theoretically should produce similar genetics to F0 (original parents). 

IME odd strains do still appear. But then again I have never really inbred too far. I usually make 2 batches from one pair and cross the two batches (F1A x F1B). Then cross fry from the two pairs . . . keep crossing them like that. But I always introduce new genetics after F4 whether I inbreed direct siblings or "crossed siblings".

The problem with my method is that I don't know how pure the new genetic is. And in F4 the strain is barely fixed into the line. Undesired strains often appear, though only a few (usually color). So it is logical to inbreed more generations when a breeder is into shows. 

I'm not much for science. I only rely on science for the basics - what strains not to pair. I rely more on experience - it gives me a better understanding of how their genetics works. All I know is that this is a safe method. I would cull a whole batch and even a whole line if I knew the deformity were genetic - eg. when I introduce rose tails into my line.


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## preternaturalism (Nov 21, 2013)

Perocore said:


> I just get kind of freaked out when I see Targaryen fish floating around; very long line of full-blooded sibling pairings.


Sometimes that actually makes me more confident. The more you're able to inbreed without problems, the more likely it is that you have a strain without recessive deleterious mutations (which are what crop up after sibling-sibling crosses because they're not being diluted.) If you really do have a clean strain, and the fish aren't overly prone to mutation, it might actually be safer to keep inbreeding those fish than to cross out. The real problem with inbreeding is that you can hit a point where all your stock carry faulty genes, and if they're recessive it's impossible to know which fish in F2 are "clean" without a lot of F3 pairings to check by, so they're quite difficult to remove completely. You also run the risk of severely diminishing the ability to adapt, but that's less relevant in an aquarium where everything's being artificially selected anyway.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

All the tail types of betta except for pk were added into the genepool by by inbreeding, otherwise those recessive and rare traits would just get lost and may never pop up again. Imagine if they didnt continue inbreeding on the first bettas that showed reduced webbing. We'd have no ct

Inbreeding is possibly the most important tool if you are breeding for certain traits. It lets the recessive traits pop up and stablise that would otherwise get lost with outcrossing. However, it is also quite good at showing the faults in your line. 

My black fish are F3 (infact the original pk pair were siblings too so theyve literally just had one drop of new blood added since I first bred the great great great grandparents).
They show no detrimental genes (except a few x factors), Im planning to do an F4 on them too. Their main problem is round tails and ugly dorsals which is common in many bettas, inbred or not.
I did an out cross spawn with one of my inbred females to a beautiful sharp mg hmpk which I though would make a nice addition to the line. But almost every single fish from that spawn had scale issues and there were some x factors in there too. So inbreeding isnt the only way to get deformed fish, just bad matches can do the same

But yeah basically dont go crazy with inbreeding, keep an eye on whats happening in your line and make sure you arent breeding weak/poor genes, but you also dont want to disregard inbreeding all together since its a very very useful tool.


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## Taboo (Jun 28, 2013)

I was under the impression than inbreeding in fish like Bettas is not too huge a problem because of the large number of fry. Generally, deformities seen in fry will be eliminated via natural selection (ie. survival of the fittest within a spawn) so the healthy young do not have issues related to inbreeding. With guppies, only having 30 odd fry and a higher survival rate this may be an issue?

Obviously, this doesn't relate to simple Mendelian genetics because homozygous recessive issues won't be made a non-issue by the healthiest fry of a spawn! Because of that, I would still advocate not over-doing the inbreeding


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Taboo said:


> I was under the impression than inbreeding in fish like Bettas is not too huge a problem because of the large number of fry. Generally, deformities seen in fry will be eliminated via natural selection (ie. survival of the fittest within a spawn) so the healthy young do not have issues related to inbreeding. With guppies, only having 30 odd fry and a higher survival rate this may be an issue?
> 
> Obviously, this doesn't relate to simple Mendelian genetics because homozygous recessive issues won't be made a non-issue by the healthiest fry of a spawn! Because of that, I would still advocate not over-doing the inbreeding


In general inbreeding isn't a problem with bettas. BUT once a genetic flaw gets into your precious line, it may stay there for generations. No, not 100% fry will show deformities - some may even look extra gorgeous. But trust me when I say that that gorgeous specimen CANNOT or should not be bred - they are carriers of faulty genes and will pass them on to their offspring. In later generations, these genetic flaws often only show at a later age and gets worse as the fish ages.

I totally agree with trilobite, inbreeding is a useful tool. But do it reasonably and keep an eye on your line. Bad genes often comes from newly bought specimens.


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## zackcrack00 (Oct 16, 2011)

Guppies are fine with inbreeding. In the IFGA (International Fancy Guppy Assosiation), there are breeders who strictly inbreed and rarely outcross.


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## Perocore (Oct 4, 2013)

zackcrack, could you link me to some articles on this? I have found that inbreeding results in severe spinal deformities after only a few generations. Within one generation I had some beautiful fish that had no apparent deformities, but according to several studies it is very unhealthy after one or two generations.

(I'll find the links to the articles about the study of inbreeding in guppies shortly, have to be off to school now!)


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I haven't really paid much attention to live bearers. But I seldom, if ever, get new genetics. I usually let them (guppies, mollies, and platies) breed freely, which means they will inbreed. The problem I see with inbreeding guppies is that their caudals will have smaller spread if they inbreed too much and to direct/closely related pairs. But when crossed siblings or cousins were bred (intentionally separated male from female since very young) they tend to retain their caudal spread. I only, if ever, experienced one or two (literally) bent spine in perhaps a year. So IMO guppies are genetically safe to inbreed.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

I was talking to my aunt who breeds horses. I asked her about "inbreeding" in the horse world. she said it's called line breeding when you mean to do it and inbreeding when it is a mistake. Funny but true. People will line breed horses she knows someone that does. Dogs have been line bred and the effects over generation is health problems. These people that line breed say you can only breed father to daughter and things like that. 

Bettas that are overly inbred will still turn out healthy looking and might be amazing fish. but let's face it we don't take them to the vets for check ups. We don't know more then what we can see. No one runs blood work on their fish or does X-rays to check the interanal health of the fish. I find that the fancy bettas of today don't live as long as the ones I got back in 1998. My first betta I had for 10 years. Now I feel lucky to have a betta live 2 years now. It's sad. I believe inbreeding does effect bettas health but it has giving us some amazing looking fish.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

+1 Indjo, I had 3 guppies and within a year I had too many, all heavily inbred but still healthy and looked like normal guppies. Basically it depends on whether your original guppies were weak or held any detrimental genes that could end up being concentrated along the inbreeding process.

Line breeding is more like half brother to half sister, aunty to nephew whereas inbreeding is more like bros/sis/father/mother. 

I recommend reading this, pretty much sums up the whole issue quite nicely
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleInbreeding.htm

Heres some interesting info about how inbreeding benefits a wild african cichlid species
http://www.livescience.com/4321-inbreeding-helps-african-fish-scientists.html


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