# Constipation and SBD; please help



## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I treated my betta for constipation yesterday by the "Pea" method. He pooped after I gave him the pea but the bloat hasn't quite subsided. I've been fasting him and I haven't seen him poop (probably because I haven't been feeding him?). If his bloat doesn't subside and he does not defecate again, should I feed another pea? 

He was swimming a little abnormally at its worst before I gave him the pea but he's fine now. He's flaring, opening his fins very wide, and swimming normally.
Any suggestions?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

I suggest you try using epsom salts in his water which will act as a laxative to help him along. It will also help to untie any binding going on in his gut.
Since you say he wasn't swimming properly at first you can assume that his swim bladder was being affected which isnt uncommon in bloating- the binding in his GIT was putting pressure on his swim bladder and affecting his bouyancy. This will subside as his stomach sorts itself out.

Keep an eye out for a greenish waste- this will be the pea he was given and a sign that it has passed all the way through and out.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Taeanna said:


> I suggest you try using epsom salts in his water which will act as a laxative to help him along. It will also help to untie any binding going on in his gut.
> Since you say he wasn't swimming properly at first you can assume that his swim bladder was being affected which isnt uncommon in bloating- the binding in his GIT was putting pressure on his swim bladder and affecting his bouyancy. This will subside as his stomach sorts itself out.
> 
> Keep an eye out for a greenish waste- this will be the pea he was given and a sign that it has passed all the way through and out.


Thank you. Do they sell Epsom salt in pet stores? How much do I put and for how long?
I have a 2.5 gallon but i put his water level down to half so he can come up for air. He seems to be really happy. Just a little bloated now.


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

Epsom salts are sold in supermarkets and chemists (make sure it is plain and unscented). I put in 1 teaspoon per 2G when just preventing illness but in medication cases you can double the dosage. It is a very gentle treatment overall and hard to overdose with. 
Just make sure you never use both epsom salts and AQ salts at the same time because this can strain your fish's kidneys.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Taeanna said:


> Epsom salts are sold in supermarkets and chemists (make sure it is plain and unscented). I put in 1 teaspoon per 2G when just preventing illness but in medication cases you can double the dosage. It is a very gentle treatment overall and hard to overdose with.
> Just make sure you never use both epsom salts and AQ salts at the same time because this can strain your fish's kidneys.


How long should I leave it in until a water change?


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

you should keep your regular water change schedule. Just make sure you are adding enough salt to each change to keep the dosage the same. So if you change 1 gallon of water then add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt to the new water, etc


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> you should keep your regular water change schedule. Just make sure you are adding enough salt to each change to keep the dosage the same. So if you change 1 gallon of water then add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt to the new water, etc


He is no longer bloated but still has swim bladder disorder, is this normal? What should I do?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

This can happen, the bacteria that were in his guy have moved into his swim bladder. 
How badly is his SBD? is he on his side or just slightly tilted? getting worse or staying about the same?


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ahh! I apologize for the other thread, I'm pretty new here. 
It's honestly not as bad as it was. It just looks swollen because it's white near the fins, where the swim bladder would be. Sometimes he slightly tilts and has trouble maneuvering but it's definitely a lot better than 3 or 4 days ago. 
Also, his appetite is still the same and he's making bubble nests.


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

It does. Give his immune system a chance to fight off his unwanted guests. He might be able to get his swim bladder under control without any help from us. The epsom salts can still be used, they can help keep everything ticking over while he focuses on other matters.

If you see it becoming worse and he is showing clear signs of distress and flotation issues it might be time to start looking into antibiotic medications to wipe out his bacterial friends once and for all. 
Be warned though not to jump to this option right away. Any antibiotic you choose will also wipe out his good bacteria and leave his immune system weaker than it was which will take time to rebuild.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Taeanna said:


> It does. Give his immune system a chance to fight off his unwanted guests. He might be able to get his swim bladder under control without any help from us. The epsom salts can still be used, they can help keep everything ticking over while he focuses on other matters.
> 
> If you see it becoming worse and he is showing clear signs of distress and flotation issues it might be time to start looking into antibiotic medications to wipe out his bacterial friends once and for all.
> Be warned though not to jump to this option right away. Any antibiotic you choose will also wipe out his good bacteria and leave his immune system weaker than it was which will take time to rebuild.


Okay. I will buy and apply the Epsom salts tomorrow. Thank you so much for helping me this far. I really appreciate it!!!


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Oh when should I feed him again?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

You can start feeding him small meals if there is no longer a sign of bloat, make sure his meals are small, perhaps split them into a breakfast and dinner instead of one meal a day and keep an eye on his stomach. 
Don't be afraid to lower his meal sizes for a while, bettas can go a while between feedings if need be.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Taeanna said:


> It does. Give his immune system a chance to fight off his unwanted guests. He might be able to get his swim bladder under control without any help from us. The epsom salts can still be used, they can help keep everything ticking over while he focuses on other matters.
> 
> If you see it becoming worse and he is showing clear signs of distress and flotation issues it might be time to start looking into antibiotic medications to wipe out his bacterial friends once and for all.
> Be warned though not to jump to this option right away. Any antibiotic you choose will also wipe out his good bacteria and leave his immune system weaker than it was which will take time to rebuild.


He's having trouble swimming again. Also, I monitored his poop and it's white and stringy, which I presume is a bacterial or parasitic problem. How can I treat this?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

White can also indicate a slowing down of the GIT or constipation. Since he has swim bladder issues appear lets work on this first and then move on and see if the waste color stays. best not to medicate for everything at once if possible.

You will need a broad spectrum antibiotic such as tetracycline or kanamycine. look for anything with tetra- or kana- in the names. This will hopefully kill his unwanted guests and bring his bouyancy back under control.

when his bacteria are under control his swimming and his waste should go back to normal, fingers crossed he gets better right away


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Taeanna said:


> White can also indicate a slowing down of the GIT or constipation. Since he has swim bladder issues appear lets work on this first and then move on and see if the waste color stays. best not to medicate for everything at once if possible.
> 
> You will need a broad spectrum antibiotic such as tetracycline or kanamycine. look for anything with tetra- or kana- in the names. This will hopefully kill his unwanted guests and bring his bouyancy back under control.
> 
> when his bacteria are under control his swimming and his waste should go back to normal, fingers crossed he gets better right away


Unfortunately, kanamycine isn't carried in any places near me and my petsmart just ran out of tetracycline. Do any of the Maracyns work?


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I might just order Kanaplex online. Though, it ships in 3-4 days. Would it be too late?


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

I do not have access to either in my country but I did some research into their key medications and it seems maracyne 2 is the one you want (if you wish to have an american keeper confirm this then poke one of our other researchers  )
It covers both gram negative and positive while one only covers positive.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you so much, I'll be leaving to get it first thing in the morning.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I've been to every petsmart, petco, Walmart, and target around the area and did not find maracyn 2. Apparently they're not even making it anymore. Is kana plex alright? I'll just order it off amazon and hope it'll come in time.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

kanaplex is perfectly fine. 

you may have to order it online.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I also came across something called Tetra Lifegaurd all in one treatment. Would this help before I receive Kanaplex or should I just wait for it.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm not familiar with it but when i looked it up online it seems to treat more funguses rather bacterial infections. You really should just wait for the kanaplex.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

An update on my fish:

He's still swimming around. He still has trouble keeping balance and his Kanaplex is coming in a day or so. Epsom salt is still being used.
However, he's starting to dart around and hit against his plants out of nowhere.
What do I do?


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Does he seem to be scratching himself against the decor?


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> Does he seem to be scratching himself against the decor?


Yes, he does.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Do you see any strange marks on him? like white dots or bumps or anything? 

the scratching himself usually means he has an external parasite.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> Do you see any strange marks on him? like white dots or bumps or anything?
> 
> the scratching himself usually means he has an external parasite.


No, he doesn't have any white dots or anything.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

this is what he looks like right now. It's the same on his other side. His fins have been like that but I changed his plants to silk plants two weeks ago.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Should I still treat him with Kanaplex? It's for internal parasites/bacteria. How should I approach external ones if he has any.


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## Taeanna (Apr 2, 2013)

External parasites can be curbed using differing medication, however if internal is the first concern then I do recommend you continue with the kanaplex. 
Best to treat worst illnesses first in cases where more than one source is suspected.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I finally received Kanaplex! He's still not pooping regularly and is lethargic. His belly is greying but I started the treatment today and I hope it works.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Looking like this today. He was following my finger


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you get a video of him with his tilting and stuff so we can see just how extreme it is? Some tilting is fine depending on what it looks like, my boys and girls will tilt to the side when they are resting even at the top of the water. I'd only be concerned with SBD if the fish has trouble swimming downward and pop back up like a cork or they sink uncontrollably like a rock. Keeping in mind that some sinking is fine, especially in long finned betta's.

When he darts, does he look like he was just spooked or is deliberately swimming around to itch/flash against objects? Flashing also comes from stress so I'm not so worried about that since he looks fine externally.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Can you get a video of him with his tilting and stuff so we can see just how extreme it is? Some tilting is fine depending on what it looks like, my boys and girls will tilt to the side when they are resting even at the top of the water. I'd only be concerned with SBD if the fish has trouble swimming downward and pop back up like a cork or they sink uncontrollably like a rock. Keeping in mind that some sinking is fine, especially in long finned betta's.
> 
> When he darts, does he look like he was just spooked or is deliberately swimming around to itch/flash against objects? Flashing also comes from stress so I'm not so worried about that since he looks fine externally.


 I would try to take a video but he's just sitting in one place all the time- very lethargic. His tilting isn't as bad as it used to be. He mostly just tries to put his face down in the gravel and stays there. I've been doing water changes twice a week because I lowered the water level to 1 gallon instead of 2.5.
This started as constipation and now he won't poop again or it'll come out white, stringy, and mucus-like.
Flashing, I'm presuming, is from the stress. I heard him hit against the marbles on the bottom only twice. I was still in bed in the morning so he shouldn't have been scared of anything. That's about it. I haven't heard or seen him do it since yesterday morning.
What do you think I should do?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, thank you for that, it sounds like it was never SBD but an infection to his GIT as Taeanna diagnosed.

I do think you should continue with the KanaPlex that has already been prescribed ^_^ and since you have it now too lol, but you can add the KanaPlex to the water and then at least attempt to feed him some food soaked in kanaplex too (for best results, let the food soak in minimal water with a small dose of kanaplex for at least 20-30 minutes to an hour) so that way, he'll have it in the water but on the off chance that he wants to eat, he might eat it.

I would use the bloodworms over pellets for soaking meds, freeze-dried actually works the best and if you soak it, it's not going to cause digestion problems like so many believe--there is no evidence that it ever caused bloat besides timed coincidences is all. But the freeze-dried soaks up the meds best over frozen but frozen will still work better than pellets will.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> Okay, thank you for that, it sounds like it was never SBD but an infection to his GIT as Taeanna diagnosed.
> 
> I do think you should continue with the KanaPlex that has already been prescribed ^_^ and since you have it now too lol, but you can add the KanaPlex to the water and then at least attempt to feed him some food soaked in kanaplex too (for best results, let the food soak in minimal water with a small dose of kanaplex for at least 20-30 minutes to an hour) so that way, he'll have it in the water but on the off chance that he wants to eat, he might eat it.
> 
> I would use the bloodworms over pellets for soaking meds, freeze-dried actually works the best and if you soak it, it's not going to cause digestion problems like so many believe--there is no evidence that it ever caused bloat besides timed coincidences is all. But the freeze-dried soaks up the meds best over frozen but frozen will still work better than pellets will.


Thank you so much! I will do that!


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I've been using epsom salt for a while now. How often should I give Rouge a break from the epsom salt?


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Honestly, however long you think it is needed. The longest I've had a dosage of 1 teaspoon per gallon is a month and there were no negative effects. My female always has a dosage of 1/4 teaspoon per gallon in her tank because if I completely remove it she gets bloated after the next meal.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Update:
I did a water change today. Added epsom salt, second dose of Kanaplex.
He seems to be swimming around more today, still moderately lethargic. Follows my finger for food. He hasn't darted since a couple days ago. I soaked freeze-dried brine shrimp in Kanaplex for half an hour only to realize that he had no idea it was food and refused to eat it. I'll be using pellets on the third dose of Kanaplex.

The instructions of Kanaplex say I can only do a max of 3 doses. How many days should I give him a break for before I start another round of Kanaplex if he is not better?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can go as many rounds as you need to, it's a fairly gentle drug as far as antibiotics go. Sakura8, a valued member who used to be here, had gone as much as 18 rounds before and it was safe as long as it is needed.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

lilnaugrim said:


> You can go as many rounds as you need to, it's a fairly gentle drug as far as antibiotics go. Sakura8, a valued member who used to be here, had gone as much as 18 rounds before and it was safe as long as it is needed.


Thank you so much, that's great to know.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I need help again. A couple hours ago, he was doing a lot better. He was spreading his fins and was swimming a lot more frequently. Now he's bloated again and I keep watching his scales if they're going to pinecone and I feel like it's really close. His belly is also grey. I don't know what to do. He's also still not pooping.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

It looks like he's gasping for air and he's having a lot of trouble swimming. I don't know what to do.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

how much longer until the end of the dosage of Kanaplex?

I would keep up with the kanaplex, since that is the best medicine for him.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

His third dose starts tomorrow. 
Is there anything I can do for his constipation?


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

You have Epsom Salt in your tank correct?

Besides that and the Kanaplex, there really isn't else you can do.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I have both 1 tsp Epsom Salt and the 1 gal dose of Kanaplex in, yes. I understand, thank you.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

ok good.

good luck! I'm sending you lots of good vibes! I'm hoping he pulls through.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I was wondering if daphnia could help his constipation or make it worse? When I fed him the food with Kanaplex, he still hasn't passed it and it's giving him a really hard time.
Or should I do the pea method again?


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I fed him the pea. He was just having such a hard time. He's lost a lot of color and I've lowered the tank water even further. He's been on the bottom and a lot less cribs. He won't eat anymore. It seems like he's getting worse. But at least his scales aren't pine coning. It's really sad.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Do NOT feed him peas. Daphina is way better. Bettas are insectivores so they cannot digest plant protein, feeing him peas could harm is digestive track. Daphina is a natural laxative that will not harm him.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> Do NOT feed him peas. Daphina is way better. Bettas are insectivores so they cannot digest plant protein, feeing him peas could harm is digestive track. Daphina is a natural laxative that will not harm him.


Currently ordering Daphnia.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

@VivianKJean I feel like I just damaged him further by feeing the pea. Would it be best to put him out of his misery by euthanizing him or do you think he still has hope..


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

I think he is probably okay - its more of a risk thing. If the pea was too large it could rip the lining of the digestive tract. Which is why it isn't recommend (even though some people still do it).

SBD is not fatal so I wouldn't go straight to euthanizing him.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Rouge is still really constipated. I just received daphnia from the mail. Should I feed him that? If so, how much and how often?


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Just feed him a small amount. Just try it once for now. You don't want to overfeed him if he is still constipated.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Update:
I fed him a little bit of the daphnia yesterday morning and there has been no change.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

I was wondering if you would ALWAYS see your fish's poop when they do it. I haven't seen anything from Rouge for about two weeks now even with the epsom salt, kanaplex, and daphnia. I'm presuming this may be a bad sign.


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Honestly, you are probably not going to see them poop. I've only seen one of my fish poop once. 

If you want to moditor his poop then remove the gravel from your tank or move him to a bare bottom QT tank.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Rouge is now mildly pineconing... he has a couple scales up. What should I do? :/


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## VivianKJean (Aug 20, 2013)

Start him on Seachem Kanaplex.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

VivianKJean said:


> Start him on Seachem Kanaplex.


I actually never stopped using it. I use about half a scoop in his hospital tank, which is 1.25 gallon. I change his water and give another dose every other day.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

Update:
Rouge still has a couple scales sticking up but he is more active and is swimming around his tank and eager to eat when I stick my finger above his tank. He's also flaring at my colorful pens when I put them up to the glass for a couple seconds. Kanaplex and Epsom salt is used as usual.


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## legine95 (Sep 11, 2014)

It's been a while. But Rouge is still slightly bloated and a couple of his scales are still raised. I haven't stopped the treatment, water changes, or the epsom salt. I feel like nothing is happening, besides the fact that he's swimming around and he's still eager to eat. I feed him daphnia once a week. Is there something else I can do?


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