# Help with Curly! His beautiful fins seem to be rotting away



## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Hi everyone,
Our son's betta, named Curly - for the curl that we noticed in his dorsal fin when we got him in January 2021 - seems to be having a problem with his fins. You can clearly see the "before" and "after" photos - before from earlier this year and more recent. They seem to be losing color and wasting away. 

We think this has been a slow progression and we really didn't notice the dramatic shift until more recently.

Curly isn't behaving any differently from what we see, is still blowing bubbles on the surface, seems to be swimming around okay and is eating just fine.

We haven't shifted any routines on our end. Food is the same. Temp and water conditions are consistent - weekly water changes. He has a log and plastic plant in the tank - we first thought he may have torn some of his dorsal fin on a sharp edge on the log but we then noticed the fin issue is not confined to the dorsal.

Any help would be appreciated. Our son lost his other fish, Happy, in under a year so we want to do everything to make Curly healthy again. 

Thank you!

-Rob



*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank? 2.5
Does it have a filter? Yes
Does it have a heater? Yes
What temperature is your tank? 79 F
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? Yes, Aqueon Mini-bow aerator and filter
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? No

*Food:*
What food brand do you use? Northfin Betta Bits
Do you feed flakes or pellets? Pellets 
Freeze-dried? No
How often do you feed your Betta? How much? Twice daily, 2 pellets each time

*Maintenance:
Before* your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? Once per week
What percentage of water did you change? Approx. 50%
What is the source of your water? Tap
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? We vacuum the substrate every other water change
What additives do you use other than conditioner? What brand of conditioner? Conditioner is API Stress Coat+ No other additives.

*Water Parameters:*
What are your water parameters? Please give exact numbers. If tested by pet store please get exact numbers. "Fine" or "Safe" won't help us help you. Important: Test your water _before_ the regular water change; not after one.

Ammonia: 0-.25 (prior to today's water change), after change 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.4-7.6 (both before and after water change - this has been relatively constant for this and previous fish)
Hardness (GH): Do not have this info - did not test.
Alkalinity (KH): Do not have this info - did not test

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms? Symptoms have slowly progressed, probably about 6-8 weeks
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? You can see the pictures when we got Curly in Jan 2021 and current. We first noticed the dorsal fin much shorter and curl gone. Then we noticed the fins below and behind him - loss of color and fullness
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? We haven't noticed any particular change in behavior
Is your Betta still eating? Yes
Have you started treating your Betta? If so, how? No
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? No
How long have you owned your Betta? We got him in January 2021
Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? We noticed some lighter/whiter areas in front of his gills and of course the curled dorsal fin, hence the name - Curly!


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Im sorry to say but Curly is severely malnourished. I also feed northfin betta bits and my bettas get 12+ pellets per day. I would start increasing his food intake, you could add a pellet or two to each feeding, I’d start doing two extra feedings a day, 4 hrs apart until he is looking better. Overfeeding is not about how much they eat at one time.
The fins could be a result of the nutrition, it’s hard to tell. I would start changing 25% every other day and add some Indian almond leaf.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

BettaloverSara said:


> Im sorry to say but Curly is severely malnourished. I also feed northfin betta bits and my bettas get 12+ pellets per day. I would start increasing his food intake, you could add a pellet or two to each feeding, I’d start doing two extra feedings a day, 4 hrs apart until he is looking better. Overfeeding is not about how much they eat at one time.
> The fins could be a result of the nutrition, it’s hard to tell. I would start changing 25% every other day and add some Indian almond leaf.


Thank you for your reply. We were told that 2x feedings daily, 2 pellets each time was plenty - and that anything over would be overfeeding. Are you saying each betta you have gets 12+ pellets daily?


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

I'm sorry you were given such poor information. Bettas are often underfed as a result of misinformation and fear of over feeding. Yes I feed each of mine 12+ per day, broken up into 2-3 feedings. For yours I would do 3-4 feedings because he's not used to much food. If you can get some frozen bloodworms you could trade one of the feedings for a couple worms, they are good and fatty.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

BettaloverSara said:


> I'm sorry you were given such poor information. Bettas are often underfed as a result of misinformation and fear of over feeding. Yes I feed each of mine 12+ per day, broken up into 2-3 feedings. For yours I would do 3-4 feedings because he's not used to much food. If you can get some frozen bloodworms you could trade one of the feedings for a couple worms, they are good and fatty.


Okay, thank you. We upped today's feedings to 3 pellets, 2x day and will try to increase from there. I've ordered the Indian almond leaf and removed the plastic plant - though thinking we can replace with a silk plant so the fish is not totally bored or surprised by the change? We will do the water changes, too.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Thanks to everyone for your advice. 

Just to confirm it seems that no one is recommending introducing any medicine at this time, correct? Just increase the food a bit, change the water 2-3x per week (25% each time)? Will the fins start to grow back - and if so, how long will it take - if we have identified the issue?


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

robm74 said:


> Thanks to everyone for your advice.
> 
> Just to confirm it seems that no one is recommending introducing any medicine at this time, correct? Just increase the food a bit, change the water 2-3x per week (25% each time)? Will the fins start to grow back - and if so, how long will it take - if we have identified the issue?


I agree with BettaLoverSara. Your guy looks real skinny, and the transparency of his fins is likely caused by a lack of nourishment. I'm assuming the loss of the bright blue color from his body is probably caused by the same. All of that will change as he gets healthier, and his fins will grow back as well. The fins will take a little time. Kinda like growing fingernails. In my experience, the healthier the Betta, the faster the fins grow. It could be a few weeks to a few months or so.

Also, aside from the Indian almond leaf, no medication. There is no need at this point since the only problem appears to be malnourishment. You really don't want to medicate unless you absolutely have to and you're 100% sure of what you're medicating for. They don't always take to medication well, especially if their immune system is down, and with him being malnourished his immune system probably is low. The only things that your little guy needs are more food and clean water, and lots of love. ❤

EDIT*
Oh yeah, one more thing, you can also try some other frozen fish foods for him. Like frozen brine shrimp or frozen daphnia. The frozen bloodworms are great too, but I've noticed my betta gets healthier and more colorful if I give him a variety. Hikari is a good company to go through for frozen fish food. I've also read that daphnia is great for aiding in the healing process, so that could help with growing back his fins. (Although I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it's good for him either way.) Just make sure you get FROZEN, not freeze dried, if you decide to go down the frozen food route. The freeze dried foods have almost no nutritional value and are really only good for an occasional treat. I also feed him refrigerated black mosquito larvae by UHT just for added variety. All of these foods have lots of protein and good fats to help him pack on some weight and get some color back. Pellets from a reputable company like Northfin are great choices too. Never hurts to know your options.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> I agree with BettaLoverSara. Your guy looks real skinny, and the transparency of his fins is likely caused by a lack of nourishment. I'm assuming the loss of the bright blue color from his body is probably caused by the same. All of that will change as he gets healthier, and his fins will grow back as well. The fins will take a little time. Kinda like growing fingernails. In my experience, the healthier the Betta, the faster the fins grow. It could be a few weeks to a few months or so.
> 
> Also, aside from the Indian almond leaf, no medication. There is no need at this point since the only problem appears to be malnourishment. You really don't want to medicate unless you absolutely have to and you're 100% sure of what you're medicating for. They don't always take to medication well, especially if their immune system is down, and with him being malnourished his immune system probably is low. The only things that your little guy needs are more food and clean water, and lots of love. ❤


Okay thank you. I have seen in another posting elsewhere that fin rot appears to be evident and that in addition to upping the food, we should also do some more frequent water changes and add aquarium salt in proper proportions. Do you agree with this approach?


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

robm74 said:


> Okay thank you. I have seen in another posting elsewhere that fin rot appears to be evident and that in addition to upping the food, we should also do some more frequent water changes and add aquarium salt in proper proportions. Do you agree with this approach?


I do agree with doing more frequent water changes, yes. I believe Sara recommended 25% every other day, which I agree with. And I believe you mentioned that you vacuum the substrate every other water change? I'd do the vacuuming with every water change, just to make sure you don't give the waste any time to decompose in his water while he's healing. Or if you'd rather use a turkey baster instead that's fine too. Just make sure it's new, or has never been exposed to soap before you use it. 

As far as the epsom salt goes, I have personally never used it before. The research I've done doesn't make me very confident in it. I do know that it works and is good in certain situations. I just don't fully understand the details in proper use of epsom salt or know when the right time to use it is. I've been able to make do perfectly without it so far with just regular water changes and the Indian almond leaf, so I'm not entirely sure if epsom salt would be needed. But definitely look to others for more opinions on using epsom salt.


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

Shoot, I forgot to add that I'd bump up his meals to 3 or 4 times a day starting with minimum 3 pellets per meal, then adding a little more to it each day or every few days. 3 pellets twice a day just isn't enough. You'll want to be able to see a little bulge in his belly when he's done eating. Not a grotesquely huge bulge like the worst case scenarios you'll find on Google search engines. Just a nice happy little round pot belly. It'll shrink down to normal size after a few hours once he's had a chance to digest. It'll probably be very easy to see at this stage with him being so thin, so it probably won't take too much food to give him that bulge right now. He should be able to hold bigger meals later on.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

I would not do any medication or salt at this time. I do not believe that he has fin rot but even if he did I would try the water changes and IAL first. When people are malnourished their hair and nails are not healthy and have a hard time growing, so do bettas fins.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Thanks again 


SammiDraco said:


> Shoot, I forgot to add that I'd bump up his meals to 3 or 4 times a day starting with minimum 3 pellets per meal, then adding a little more to it each day or every few days. 3 pellets twice a day just isn't enough. You'll want to be able to see a little bulge in his belly when he's done eating. Not a grotesquely huge bulge like the worst case scenarios you'll find on Google search engines. Just a nice happy little round pot belly. It'll shrink down to normal size after a few hours once he's had a chance to digest. It'll probably be very easy to see at this stage with him being so thin, so it probably won't take too much food to give him that bulge right now. He should be able to hold bigger meals later on.


Okay, we are starting today with 3 meals today. Will let you know how that goes.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

BettaloverSara said:


> I would not do any medication or salt at this time. I do not believe that he has fin rot but even if he did I would try the water changes and IAL first. When people are malnourished their hair and nails are not healthy and have a hard time growing, so do bettas fins.


Okay, well we did a large water change yesterday and added a proportional amount of Aquarium Salt. Would you recommend we don't do any more salt in water changes going forward? The Indian Almond Leaf is coming tomorrow - will add that in.

Also, we took out one of his fake plants that we think may have injured him at some point - that's the pink one. I bought these silk plants last night and was thinking of adding one of them - maybe the stringy one on the right. But wasn't sure if that is too much stress for the fish right now, as we've done a lot over the past 48 hours: upped the food amount, a couple of water changes, removed the fake plant.

Unfortunately now we are noticing a change in behavior - he's hanging out at the top of the tank more but is still eating just fine. Wonder if it's because he's having a hard time swimming?


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

First thing I'd say is to check and see if he's gasping. If he is, then he may be entering a critical condition and the water is likely not properly oxygenated, so you'll need to adjust your aerator and filter accordingly. Otherwise there could be a large number of reasons why he'd be hanging out near the surface. It could simply be out of boredom if the tank has too few decorations. Or it could be something is wrong with the water and he's searching for a way out. Double check your perimeters. If nothing else, it could be the aquarium salt. Like I said, I don't know much about the salt, but it could be possible that the change in water was too much for him in his weakened state. (I could be totally wrong, but considering his behavior changed shortly after adding aquarium salt, I'm making the assumption that it's connected. It's also not the first time I've heard of this... But like I said, I just don't know enough about epsom salt to say for sure.) The fact that he's still eating is good. But keep an eye on him. It's probably not from him having a hard time swimming, as exhaustion is usually coupled with the betta sinking to the bottom, rather than floating at the surface. It's not likely that it's caused by the stress of changing a piece of decoration. Although when you say a large water change, what percentage are we talking about? 25% as Sara suggested should be plenty. I wouldn't want to do too drastic of a water change in his condition. Also make sure when you're doing your water changes that the new water is as close as humanly possible to the same temperature as his tank. Too much of a jump in temperatures can put him into shock, or at the very least upset his immune system which could ultimately be fatal. I'd personally leave him in the tank while you're doing it. Some people prefer to remove the betta temporarily while doing water changes, but I find that it's sometimes too stressful for them to be removed from their environment. So I'd leave him in, and just slowly add the fresh water to the tank so it doesn't freak him out. And no, I personally wouldn't do anymore salt, especially since you're noticing a negative change in behavior shortly after adding it.

As for the decorations, any of those in the pictures should be good. To make sure though, grab a set of panty hose and run it along the decorations. If it snags anywhere, then don't use that decoration. Anything that'll snag panty hose will rip a betta's fins. Adding decorations can be a good thing. It can peak his curiosity and happiness as well as give him cover if he's afraid of anything. It'll ultimately do him good. Just move slowly when you do it if you're worried.


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## Feanor (Nov 13, 2020)

Just not to confuse the salts:
Aquarium salt was added. Epsom salt would be a remedy if he had issues with an accumulation of fluid or if he couldn‘t pass stool.

Bigger water changes are more stressful for the fish that‘s why 25% every second day were recommended.
I would stick to this recommendation and wouldn‘t use any aquarium salt. It alters parameters and he‘s already weak.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Feanor said:


> Just not to confuse the salts:
> Aquarium salt was added. Epsom salt would be a remedy if he had issues with an accumulation of fluid or if he couldn‘t pass stool.
> 
> Bigger water changes are more stressful for the fish that‘s why 25% every second day were recommended.
> I would stick to this recommendation and wouldn‘t use any aquarium salt. It alters parameters and he‘s already weak.


Okay, we will hold on any more aquarium salt and do 25% water changes every other day, and keep an eye on the parameters - as well as up the food. Right now, we're at 7 pellets per day (up from 4). He seems very hungry!


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> First thing I'd say is to check and see if he's gasping. If he is, then he may be entering a critical condition and the water is likely not properly oxygenated, so you'll need to adjust your aerator and filter accordingly. Otherwise there could be a large number of reasons why he'd be hanging out near the surface. It could simply be out of boredom if the tank has too few decorations. Or it could be something is wrong with the water and he's searching for a way out. Double check your perimeters. If nothing else, it could be the aquarium salt. Like I said, I don't know much about the salt, but it could be possible that the change in water was too much for him in his weakened state. (I could be totally wrong, but considering his behavior changed shortly after adding aquarium salt, I'm making the assumption that it's connected. It's also not the first time I've heard of this... But like I said, I just don't know enough about epsom salt to say for sure.) The fact that he's still eating is good. But keep an eye on him. It's probably not from him having a hard time swimming, as exhaustion is usually coupled with the betta sinking to the bottom, rather than floating at the surface. It's not likely that it's caused by the stress of changing a piece of decoration. Although when you say a large water change, what percentage are we talking about? 25% as Sara suggested should be plenty. I wouldn't want to do too drastic of a water change in his condition. Also make sure when you're doing your water changes that the new water is as close as humanly possible to the same temperature as his tank. Too much of a jump in temperatures can put him into shock, or at the very least upset his immune system which could ultimately be fatal. I'd personally leave him in the tank while you're doing it. Some people prefer to remove the betta temporarily while doing water changes, but I find that it's sometimes too stressful for them to be removed from their environment. So I'd leave him in, and just slowly add the fresh water to the tank so it doesn't freak him out. And no, I personally wouldn't do anymore salt, especially since you're noticing a negative change in behavior shortly after adding it.
> 
> As for the decorations, any of those in the pictures should be good. To make sure though, grab a set of panty hose and run it along the decorations. If it snags anywhere, then don't use that decoration. Anything that'll snag panty hose will rip a betta's fins. Adding decorations can be a good thing. It can peak his curiosity and happiness as well as give him cover if he's afraid of anything. It'll ultimately do him good. Just move slowly when you do it if you're worried.


Yes, we leave him in the tank during water changes and will just stick to the 25% water changes every other day and the increased food - right now, he's at 7 total pellets (3/1/3). Take a look at a short video from today. One other question: Do you think it would help/hurt to shut off the aerator occasionally over the next few days? Thinking that he may be having a hard time swimming and tiring him out a bit due to his tiredness and trying to recover. What do you think?


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

robm74 said:


> Yes, we leave him in the tank during water changes and will just stick to the 25% water changes every other day and the increased food - right now, he's at 7 total pellets (3/1/3). Take a look at a short video from today. One other question: Do you think it would help/hurt to shut off the aerator occasionally over the next few days? Thinking that he may be having a hard time swimming and tiring him out a bit due to his tiredness and trying to recover. What do you think?


I would leave that call up to you. If he's spending a lot of time at the bottom of the tank like he is in the video, and if he doesn't appear to be gasping, and if you keep the filter on, you can try turning off the aerator for a little while. Just keep a close eye on him. If he starts gasping, turn it back on right away. But as long as you have a filter that's meant to function in a tank of that size, that should churn the water enough to give him plenty of oxygen. (The filter must stay on though. Don't turn that off. It's super important for a number of reasons.) Otherwise, if you're able to adjust the aerator to a lower setting, you can do that instead. Some people will put a sponge over their aerator to slow it down. You'll need a particular sponge though, you can't just use any sponge, so you'll have to do some research to find the right one. The wrong one could be deadly. It's just another option.

In the meantime I'd invest in a few more silk plants. It looks like your tank is a little bare, which can be part of the reason why he's just laying around. Not only can it be boring for a Betta so they resort to just laying around, but it can also add a lot of stress to their lives. They like to have a few different options for cover in case they're startled by something. Being out in the open may make them feel vulnerable. Also, the current from the filter and / or the aerator can be too strong without any plants to break it up, which can be very stressful for him and may cause him to lay at the bottom of the tank out of exhaustion. I like to put some tall plants in the back of the tank where I have my filter and air stone. It helps break up the current so it's not so strong and that might make it easier for him to swim around without sacrificing the aerator. I also put some smaller / shorter plants around the front or middle of the tank. It'll encourage him to swim around and investigate, which can be fun for him. Betta beds or hammocks are good too (with the little suction cups to put on the tank walls) because it offers places for him to rest if he does get tired. Having a tank that's too bare isn't always the best thing and it can actually require a lot more energy to swim, especially with those big fins. (The fins aren't actually for swimming, they're for decoration and attracting attention to females. Those big fins actually make swimming harder. Swimming for males can actually be pretty laborious without any resting spots or plants to break up the current.) Just make sure it isn't over crowded as well so he has room to swim around. I can't remember if I posted a link or not, but I'll do it anyway. These are the Begondis plants I use for my tank. They've been recommended to me by some other people here and I love them.






BEGONDIS: Aquarium Plants


Aquarium Plants



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This is also the Betta bed I use. It offers some rest for tired or weak bettas. My betta is pretty fond of them too.









Amazon.com: 3 Pack Betta Fish Hammock Plant Leaf Pad Fish Spawning Grounds Breeding Resting Bed : Pet Supplies


Buy 3 Pack Betta Fish Hammock Plant Leaf Pad Fish Spawning Grounds Breeding Resting Bed: Plastic Plants - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

If it’s not blowing him all over the place I would leave it on. If he can eat with it on and find places to rest it should be fine, he needs the oxygen.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Thank you again for your continued responses and detail.


SammiDraco said:


> I would leave that call up to you. If he's spending a lot of time at the bottom of the tank like he is in the video, and if he doesn't appear to be gasping, and if you keep the filter on, you can try turning off the aerator for a little while. Just keep a close eye on him. If he starts gasping, turn it back on right away. But as long as you have a filter that's meant to function in a tank of that size, that should churn the water enough to give him plenty of oxygen. (The filter must stay on though. Don't turn that off. It's super important for a number of reasons.) Otherwise, if you're able to adjust the aerator to a lower setting, you can do that instead. Some people will put a sponge over their aerator to slow it down. You'll need a particular sponge though, you can't just use any sponge, so you'll have to do some research to find the right one. The wrong one could be deadly. It's just another option.
> 
> In the meantime I'd invest in a few more silk plants. It looks like your tank is a little bare, which can be part of the reason why he's just laying around. Not only can it be boring for a Betta so they resort to just laying around, but it can also add a lot of stress to their lives. They like to have a few different options for cover in case they're startled by something. Being out in the open may make them feel vulnerable. Also, the current from the filter and / or the aerator can be too strong without any plants to break it up, which can be very stressful for him and may cause him to lay at the bottom of the tank out of exhaustion. I like to put some tall plants in the back of the tank where I have my filter and air stone. It helps break up the current so it's not so strong and that might make it easier for him to swim around without sacrificing the aerator. I also put some smaller / shorter plants around the front or middle of the tank. It'll encourage him to swim around and investigate, which can be fun for him. Betta beds or hammocks are good too (with the little suction cups to put on the tank walls) because it offers places for him to rest if he does get tired. Having a tank that's too bare isn't always the best thing and it can actually require a lot more energy to swim, especially with those big fins. (The fins aren't actually for swimming, they're for decoration and attracting attention to females. Those big fins actually make swimming harder. Swimming for males can actually be pretty laborious without any resting spots or plants to break up the current.) Just make sure it isn't over crowded as well so he has room to swim around. I can't remember if I posted a link or not, but I'll do it anyway. These are the Begondis plants I use for my tank. They've been recommended to me by some other people here and I love them.
> 
> ...


Thank you again for your continued responses and detail.

As for Curly today, here's a link to a video I just took. He's spending quite a bit of time at the top of the tank, fins fluttering a bit and still kind of heavy breathing. He ate all three pellets for breakfast and his one lunch pellet.

An update on the water parameters:
We had to swap out a bit of the water yesterday due to adding the silk plant, but the large water change (50-60%) was on Tuesday when we added the salt. Not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but after that is when Curly started hanging out more at the top of the tank.

Currently 0 nitrates and nitrites. The pH is about 7.6 - this has been the case since we got the fish (we do have a pH down product but have never used it). Ammonia is a bit hard to read, looks to be slightly more than 0 but less than .25 ppm.

Would you recommend another water change today (25%) or waiting another day?
Should we not do any other salt - or another medication?

We'll look to add the rest of the plants, too. 
-Rob


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Hi Rob, moderators will probably chime in with more information but if I were in your situation, I would do another big water change and add Seachem Prime (if it’s convenient for you to buy) to get that Ammonia down. The Prime will detoxify the ammonia and as you’re already doing, keep rechecking those levels. 

I’m not sure how much Prime you should use so I hope you get more info. I know you can do up to 5 times the dose in situations like this, but because your lil boy is not well, I just can’t be certain.

Personally, the elevated ammonia is what sticks out to me and may be exasperating his symptoms. 25% might be enough but if I were you, I’d go for 50%. 

Sorry I’m not more help. Wishing your boy a quick recovery.


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

robm74 said:


> Thank you again for your continued responses and detail.
> 
> Thank you again for your continued responses and detail.
> 
> ...


As long as his last water change was before yesterday, then yes do a 25% change. The water change should be at 25% every other day until he shows consistent improvement. No medication or salt at all. He's not taking to the salt well at all and any more abnormal change in the water could be fatal in his state. Plus he just doesn't need it in my opinion, and adding anything that he doesn't need isn't good for him in this condition. The PH is a bit too high for your betta and could be affecting him. That could be why he's at the surface often. Also, if he's gasping, don't turn off your aerator. If it's already off, turn it back on. If he's gasping and spending time at the surface, he's suffocating. High PH can have that affect. This is usually caused by high levels of carbon dioxide or nitrites or ammonia in the water, but certain types of gravel that are high in calcium can cause the PH imbalance as well. There is something in that tank that's causing it, whether it's leftover waste that you haven't cleaned or simply the type of gravel you're using. Check the temperature too, and make sure the heater isn't malfunctioning. A sudden increase in temperature can cause it as well. Make sure you're not decorating the tank with real sea shells or real choral, as they are high in calcium and can raise the PH. Also, while aquarium salt and epsom salt are neutral, any other kinds of salts can raise the PH. So hopefully no one added sea salt or anything like that thinking it was the same thing as epsom or aquarium salt. Or (I almost didn't consider this) check the alkalinity in your tap, assuming it's tap that you use for your tank. Your water coming out of the tap might already have a high hardness which will cause a raise in PH. I would say to check that out first, and try to eliminate all other possibilities. Make sure there is no hidden waste in the tank and get into the gravel real good with the vacuum or turkey baster. For now since he's not doing so well, I would add a balancer. I've been using Tetra Easy Balance for years with every water change since my tap is a little off and it's super mild on the bettas. I'm not sure what you have but just make sure it's not some kind of medication but rather a simple additive. If you can't figure out what's causing the high PH then it's probably something in the tank. I would just use the balancer for now, then try things like change out the gravel later on when he's feeling better.

On the flip side, make sure his water isn't too cold as well. Too cold a temperature can slow the metabolism and the betta will become inactive and likely float at the surface, and become ill as well.

Keep up the regimen for a few more days. I would say if he's not showing any improvements within a week, start another topic on the forum and see if anyone else has anymore input. Or if he seems to be getting worse or starts to refuse food before the week is out, start another topic and see about setting up a hospital tank. He's not looking too well from the videos. I would definitely invest in some frozen foods at this point since he's still eating. In my experience, whenever something was up with my betta, he'd get better a lot quicker after eating frozen foods for a few days. They're packed full of nutrients and good fats. Many pellets are fantastic too, but I'm a firm believer that natural is always better. Add that indian almond leaf when it comes in too. The tannins can help with the PH as well as all around improve the state of the tank. Otherwise the only other thing you can do is be patient and wait. I know the feeling of desperately wanting to do something, anything, to help. But sometimes the more new things you try, the worse it gets. And sometimes there is the real possibility that the illness may have progressed too far and he may not be able to recover. It's something we've all gone through.

But sometimes you'll be surprised. When I first got my betta 7 months ago, he became deathly ill within a couple days of bringing him home simply from the stress of the drastic change in environments. He'd lay on his side at the bottom of the tank or float at the surface, he'd suddenly lose consciousness all the time, then it would be near impossible to wake him, he wouldn't even eat a single bite for a full week. There were times I thought for sure he was gone. The only thing I could do is keep his tank clean with regular water changes. It was hard too because I was always tempted with trying other remedies even though I knew better. But suddenly after a week of being near death, he started to perk up. And now he's happy and healthy as can be over a half a year later. You just have to be patient and hope for the best.


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

One last thing, as for the ammonia reading, since you're having trouble reading the exact ppm and it seems to be between 0 and .225 and your nitrite and nitrate levels are at zero, I'm going to make the guess that the ammonia levels are fine. Especially since you just recently did a 50% - 60% water change two days ago. Ammonia levels below .5 (according to my understanding) are not toxic so long as you keep up with the regular water changes. Anything above 1 ppm is fatal. Considering you're under .225 - and that's a worst case scenario since it may only be zero if it's difficult to read - the 25% water change today should be just fine. The ammonia should be at zero after that. You shouldn't have to add anything to the tank. Double check the perimeters after the water change just to make sure.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

If you’re looking to lower your Ph, you could try floating an Indian Almond Leaves as well. They are a natural, effective and non-aggressive way to do this. Since you don’t want any major fluctuations, I would float half a leaf in the tank. The tannins are very beneficial for preventing and aiding healing and also contain lots of antibacterial and antifungal properties.

They are not easy to find locally for me so I normally order them off Amazon. They are great to have handy and bettas love them, I always float one in my tanks and when my bettas have had any fin or scale issues I make a strong tea out of them.

In your case though, I’d rather float a leaf since you are closely monitoring changes without swinging your levels around too much to cause stress.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> One last thing, as for the ammonia reading, since you're having trouble reading the exact ppm and it seems to be between 0 and .225 and your nitrite and nitrate levels are at zero, I'm going to make the guess that the ammonia levels are fine. Especially since you just recently did a 50% - 60% water change two days ago. Ammonia levels below .5 (according to my understanding) are not toxic so long as you keep up with the regular water changes. Anything above 1 ppm is fatal. Considering you're under .225 - and that's a worst case scenario since it may only be zero if it's difficult to read - the 25% water change today should be just fine. The ammonia should be at zero after that. You shouldn't have to add anything to the tank. Double check the perimeters after the water change just to make sure.


Hello again. I wanted to give you a bit of an update. We did a 25% water change yesterday, but did not do the salt to see if that makes a difference. The parameters and temperature are stable - the ammonia was definitely 0 when I tested after the tank change.

Fins appear, though can't be certain, to be regrowing. Possibly a slight improvement with his coloring. And he's still eating just fine.

But his behavior is what's concerning us most. He spent most of yesterday at the top of the tank, with occasional visits sitting on the bottom. He's breathing is pretty labored

This morning he was right next to the heater and not moving much. Then he noticed us and came over for food and he ate everything.

Can you see any additional clues in this video and pictures I just took? Video and Pics

Do you think we should we stay the course on just doing water changes or do anything else? Thank you again!

-Rob


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Hello again. I wanted to give you a bit of an update. We did a 25% water change yesterday, but did not do the salt to see if that makes a difference. The parameters and temperature are stable - the ammonia was definitely 0 when I tested after the tank change.
> 
> Fins appear, though can't be certain, to be regrowing. Possibly a slight improvement with his coloring. And he's still eating just fine.
> 
> ...


Hi Rob,

I hope you can get more help for Curly, but just wanted to see if I’m the meantime you have a plant (either live or silk) that you could move over near his heater area so that he could rest at the top of the water on it. Even a betta hammock? This way he’s not using too much energy staying at the water line swimming. It might help Curly reserve his energy so he can rest comfortably.

Bettas love to feel secure and cuddle up into floating and tall plants especially when sick or sleeping at night. Most of my bettas loved being at the waterline when they slept.

Also, have you been able to find any Indian almond leaves?


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

I like to tuck the rhizome of a small Java fern behind the heater and let the plant leaves run horizontally to make a little bed at the waters surface or right below.

If you can get or have hornwort or Anacharis, you could float this and he could cuddle up in there. I’m sure others might have more ideas but just to keep him comfortable.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> I hope you can get more help for Curly, but just wanted to see if I’m the meantime you have a plant (either live or silk) that you could move over near his heater area so that he could rest at the top of the water on it. Even a betta hammock? This way he’s not using too much energy staying at the water line swimming. It might help Curly reserve his energy so he can rest comfortably.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the idea. We tried a leaf hammock a couple of months back but he didn't seem to have any interest in it. We can try to move one of the plants over though. Almond leaves are on their way!


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Oh good, yes, I’d put the hammock right over near the heater since he’s been hanging around there about an inch below the water line. Has the temp in his tank remained stable? What is that at right now?

I’m so glad you found some almond leaves. I’d honestly brew a small batch of tea (or large batch if you want to refrigerate for future use. There are lots of YouTube vids on how to do this. I can explain too when they arrive if you’d like. Before adding a leaf or tea, make sure you remove any carbon in your filter so it doesn’t remove the tannins from the leaves from his water. I never use carbon but I know a lot of people like it so if you do, you can always put the carbon back in when he’s feeling better.

I’m thinking about Curly. If I can think of anything else that may help I will keep you posted. I’m real sorry he’s not feeling well. I understand how stressful it is.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Oh sorry I just noticed you said you’d move a plant over. That’s great. I’d put the hammock in there too just so he has a couple spots to choose from.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

He may just need a couple good days of rest to recoup. I forget if you already have one, but you could put a little bubbler in there and turn the filter down a bit so he has more oxygen in the water. Not if it’s blowing him around too much though. In that case, don’t do it


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Did I mention Kordons Fish Protector to you yet?  If so, just ignore me but I really like this product. It will produce an extra thick slime coat on Curly and is great for fish stress. There are no medications in it, although it can be used to help meds bind to them more efficiently.

Here is a link. It constains echinacea and B vitamins and I’ve found it to be very effective. It’s a huge bottle too so it will last a long time since you’ll be dosing very small. Amazon has it too.









KORDON Fish Protector Aquarium Water Conditioner, 16-oz bottle - Chewy.com


Buy Kordon Fish Protector Aquarium Water Conditioner, 16-oz bottle at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




www.chewy.com


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

I agree that he just needs some time. It's been five days I believe since you opened this topic? And he's still hanging on, still eating, still swimming over to you, and doesn't seem to be getting any worse. Although the progress is slow and painstaking, it is still progress. It's a VERY good sign that he still has a good appetite, and that he responds to you when it's time to eat. It may not seem like much right now, but if he still has the will and the drive to eat, then he has the will and drive to heal. As long as he gets enough food, he'll have the energy and nutrients to make it happen. Make sure you continue to slowly add more food to his meals. You'll want to see a happy little bulge in his belly when he's full. I know it sounds weird, and it took a little convincing for me too, but that's the best way to tell if your betta has had a good meal. Just a little bulge, not like super bloated.

I also completely support the Kordon Fish Protector. I think that stuff is awesome. It's not medicine at all but rather something that helps promote health. If I remember correctly, it's not just an extra protective slime coat but it also has additional vitamins and/or amino acids I believe that are fantastic for a betta's health. I use it all the time even when nothing is wrong with my betta. The directions are a little annoying on the bottle, at least the one I got, because the directions are for larger tanks. I think I figured out it's approximately 10 drops per gallon. If I'm wrong, please somebody correct me!

Also it's great that your ammonia is officially down to zero. I'm really happy to hear that. That's good news. Continuing the 25% changes every other day should keep the ammonia levels at about zero. Just make sure you suck up as much poop and wasted food as possible.

His breathing is a little too laborious, though I believe that should get better in time as long as there aren't other things causing it:
1st. Is the temperature still good? Too high of a temperature can cause laboured breathing among other ailments.
2. Are you using any algae remover? Some of these products can be toxic when overexposed and can lead to breathing problems. And in his state, probably any exposure could be toxic for him.
3. How is the PH? If I remember correctly I think you mentioned it was a little bit on the higher side a few days ago. Like 7.4 or 7.6 or something like that? If it makes too drastic of a jump it can cause something called osmosis shock, though I don't think going from 7.4-7.6 to 7.0 would be that drastic. Plus he doesn't seem to be in shock. Just unwell. If the PH hasn't made it's way back down to around 7.0 I believe there were some good suggestions on how to get it back to a neutral level. I know you said the Indian almond leaf is on the way, which will help out a great deal, and I bet you'll notice a positive change in your betta after a couple days of having that in.
4. Is your filter and aerator still on? If he's having a hard time breathing, you need to make sure both of those are on in order to give him plenty of oxygen in his water. And you can definitely move your plants in front of them to help break up the current while still having the right amount of oxygen. As for the betta hammock, I'd set that a little close to the surface and in a part of the tank he likes to hang out in. That way if he takes to it, he won't need to exert much energy to get to the surface when he needs to. As for him hanging out by the heater, I wouldn't worry too much about that. He's likely there because he can rest on the heater while staying close to the surface. As long as he continues eating and isn't laying on his side or upside down or anything like that, I wouldn't be too concerned. I believe he'll be okay.
5. This is very important... How are his poops? Are they normal colored, normal consistency? Is he pooping often? It should be approximately within 1 - 3 hours after a meal.

If all of these things check out, I would say to continue doing what you're doing. It's a really good sign that it's already been over five days. He's a fighter and I think as long as everything else checks out, he'll make a full recovery.

It's hard for me to say whether or not he's gaining some color or growing a little more of his fins mostly from the changes in lighting from picture to picture. But you know your betta better than anyone. Even if it's minor, if it looks to you like he may have gotten some more color or grew a little more of his fins, you're probably right. And if that's the case then you're on the right track. Also, if you start to notice the tips of his fins getting longer but appearing a bit thin and transparent, that's normal. They thicken out and develop more color as they continue to grow back. I'll show you an example of my betta when his tail fin was all torn up by a piece of decoration. He also has a little bit of a full belly, just to kind of show what the bulge should look like. (Granted my betta has more weight on him so you'll want to start out a bit slower, but hopefully you'll get the point.) The transparent part of his fin really started to show after about a week or two of feeding him frozen bloodworms, daphnia, brine shrimp, and mosquito larvae three times a day, and getting the full belly after each meal. It took him several months for it to grow back completely, but it was in pretty bad shape. The worse the damage, the longer it'll take to heal. Plus I'm also a bit suspicious that he may be tail biting but I'm not sure. Anyway, the first picture you can just barely see the thin lighter color tip of his tail which is the new growth. The second picture you can see just a little hint of a full belly. They're not the best quality pictures but hopefully you can see well enough.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> I agree that he just needs some time. It's been five days I believe since you opened this topic? And he's still hanging on, still eating, still swimming over to you, and doesn't seem to be getting any worse. Although the progress is slow and painstaking, it is still progress. It's a VERY good sign that he still has a good appetite, and that he responds to you when it's time to eat. It may not seem like much right now, but if he still has the will and the drive to eat, then he has the will and drive to heal. As long as he gets enough food, he'll have the energy and nutrients to make it happen. Make sure you continue to slowly add more food to his meals. You'll want to see a happy little bulge in his belly when he's full. I know it sounds weird, and it took a little convincing for me too, but that's the best way to tell if your betta has had a good meal. Just a little bulge, not like super bloated.
> 
> I also completely support the Kordon Fish Protector. I think that stuff is awesome. It's not medicine at all but rather something that helps promote health. If I remember correctly, it's not just an extra protective slime coat but it also has additional vitamins and/or amino acids I believe that are fantastic for a betta's health. I use it all the time even when nothing is wrong with my betta. The directions are a little annoying on the bottle, at least the one I got, because the directions are for larger tanks. I think I figured out it's approximately 10 drops per gallon. If I'm wrong, please somebody correct me!
> 
> ...





robm74 said:


> Hello again. I wanted to give you a bit of an update. We did a 25% water change yesterday, but did not do the salt to see if that makes a difference. The parameters and temperature are stable - the ammonia was definitely 0 when I tested after the tank change.
> 
> Fins appear, though can't be certain, to be regrowing. Possibly a slight improvement with his coloring. And he's still eating just fine.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with @SammiDraco This is all great information. 

With the Kordons i always use a dropper to make sure I dose correct so that might help. I’m pretty sure it’s 4ml for 10 g so for 2.5 gallons it would be 1ml so that would be about 10 drops. It definitely is great stuff.

I hope Curly is having a better day today. 🤞


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> I totally agree with @SammiDraco This is all great information.
> 
> With the Kordons i always use a dropper to make sure I dose correct so that might help. I’m pretty sure it’s 4ml for 10 g so for 2.5 gallons it would be 1ml so that would be about 10 drops. It definitely is great stuff.
> 
> I hope Curly is having a better day today. 🤞





SammiDraco said:


> I agree that he just needs some time. It's been five days I believe since you opened this topic? And he's still hanging on, still eating, still swimming over to you, and doesn't seem to be getting any worse. Although the progress is slow and painstaking, it is still progress. It's a VERY good sign that he still has a good appetite, and that he responds to you when it's time to eat. It may not seem like much right now, but if he still has the will and the drive to eat, then he has the will and drive to heal. As long as he gets enough food, he'll have the energy and nutrients to make it happen. Make sure you continue to slowly add more food to his meals. You'll want to see a happy little bulge in his belly when he's full. I know it sounds weird, and it took a little convincing for me too, but that's the best way to tell if your betta has had a good meal. Just a little bulge, not like super bloated.
> 
> I also completely support the Kordon Fish Protector. I think that stuff is awesome. It's not medicine at all but rather something that helps promote health. If I remember correctly, it's not just an extra protective slime coat but it also has additional vitamins and/or amino acids I believe that are fantastic for a betta's health. I use it all the time even when nothing is wrong with my betta. The directions are a little annoying on the bottle, at least the one I got, because the directions are for larger tanks. I think I figured out it's approximately 10 drops per gallon. If I'm wrong, please somebody correct me!
> 
> ...


Got it, thanks. As for any changes, he still is spending most of his time at the top of the tank. There appears to be better coloring and fin growth but hard to tell.

Here's a new 30 second video.
Curly September 27

Food wise, we were on 2/2 but the consensus here was that is not enough food, so we updated to 3/1/3 about a week or so ago (NorthFin Betta Bits).

He still is interested in eating. However, yesterday at dinner time, he spit out one of the three pellets. This morning, he spit out one of the three again. Not sure what if anything this means.

We will get the Kordon products today, will do a 25% water change tomorrow and add them and do a gravel scrub with a turkey baster. I think we are also going to try and get Curly over to the place we bought him from - about 15 minutes away - a specialty pet store (local, not a chain) to take a look and see if they have any insight. If we do, we will try to reduce the water level in the tank so as to minimize any chance of spillage and not disrupt him too much.

We thought the benefit of this outweighs any risk?

Also, do you think we should still keep the tank light off during the day or give him some light?


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Got it, thanks. As for any changes, he still is spending most of his time at the top of the tank. There appears to be better coloring and fin growth but hard to tell.
> 
> Here's a new 30 second video.
> Curly September 27
> ...


Hi,

I’m sorry Curly still isn’t well. It worries me that he’s not eating. I know you said you have a bubbler on but I still notice there doesn’t seem to be much circulation on the top of the tank. I notice there might be a film (the rainbow coloring) at the surface of the water. This can be removed with a paper towel if you lay it flat on the surface and let it absorb as much of the film as you can. Or you could turn your bubbler up or move it up higher to create more agitation at the surface as well. I’d go ahead and move the betta hammock near where he is sitting so maybe he will rest on it to save energy.

In my honest opinion, I think it will cause more stress for him if you take him to the store. I know it’s tempting but I think you could get the same information from them If you share the video you attached and maybe even do a longer video with pics of him from all angles to show the pet store employees. That’s what I would do instead of moving him. 

I would shut the tank light off. Lighting are for us and plants, bettas don’t need them and it may offer him more relaxation. I’m so glad you ordered the Kordons too. Have you tried the IAL or tea? 

So, if I were you I’d shut off the lights. Put a taller plant in and the betta hammock so maybe he can stay at the surface comfortably while resting, take a 3-5 min video and pics. I forget but is your tank fully cycled? After a large water change I like to add a bit of bottled bacteria (even in a cycled tank) to replenish it along with the water conditioner. Could you send me all of his tank parameters today too?

At this point it may be more beneficial to hold off on another water change. You could still turkey baste the poop out, so long as the parameters check out.

He may simply need more time to recoup. If he’s in a dark tank in a dark or lightly lit room, he will sleep. Just like us when we’re sick, he may just need rest, time and no stress.

I hope this helps. I know it’s so stressful. Please keep me posted.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Got it, thanks. As for any changes, he still is spending most of his time at the top of the tank. There appears to be better coloring and fin growth but hard to tell.
> 
> Here's a new 30 second video.
> Curly September 27
> ...


I’m also sorry I did not look at your post until now. I’ve been so busy. If you did take him to the store, I’m curious what they said.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi,
> 
> I’m sorry Curly still isn’t well. It worries me that he’s not eating. I know you said you have a bubbler on but I still notice there doesn’t seem to be much circulation on the top of the tank. I notice there might be a film (the rainbow coloring) at the surface of the water. This can be removed with a paper towel if you lay it flat on the surface and let it absorb as much of the film as you can. Or you could turn your bubbler up or move it up higher to create more agitation at the surface as well. I’d go ahead and move the betta hammock near where he is sitting so maybe he will rest on it to save energy.
> 
> ...


I like your idea of doing a longer video and taking that in to share with the pet store staff instead of bringing the fish in. Will try to get the betta hammock in tomorrow. I think there is pretty good circulation at the top, because he's having a bit of a hard time not getting blown around by it.

He's mostly hanging around the top of the tank. Check these videos out.
New Videos 9/27

I just checked the nitrites (0) and ammonia (possibly 0.25 ppm).


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

I know it was recommended not to use Prime but I don’t like that you have even a tiny amount of ammonia in your tank. I know there are lots of water conditioners out there, but ones like Stress Coat, do not detoxify ammonia or nitrites so that it’s safe for fish. This is why when cycling your tank along with bottled bacteria, it’s good to use. It makes those ammonia or nitrite spikes that are part of the cycling process non-toxic. 

Others may disagree, but I’m not sure why. It also detoxifies heavy metals in your tap water. I hope someone on the forum chimes in to correct me if I’m wrong and explain why I’m wrong. To me, any level over 0 is dangerous if it’s not detoxified, even understanding that an ammonia and then nitrite spikes are part of cycling. According to Seachem it should be added every 48 hours during the cycling process. You may want to research this further.

I’m real glad you decided not to bring him to the store. Your videos will help. Has he developed any pineconing on his scales. It would look like this …. It’s hard for me to tell in the video. It may not look as extreme but do you notice any at all?

Thanks 🙏


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> I know it was recommended not to use Prime but I don’t like that you have even a tiny amount of ammonia in your tank. I know there are lots of water conditioners out there, but ones like Stress Coat, do not detoxify ammonia or nitrites so that it’s safe for fish. This is why when cycling your tank along with bottled bacteria, it’s good to use. It makes those ammonia or nitrite spikes that are part of the cycling process non-toxic.
> 
> Others may disagree, but I’m not sure why. It also detoxifies heavy metals in your tap water. I hope someone on the forum chimes in to correct me if I’m wrong and explain why I’m wrong. To me, any level over 0 is dangerous if it’s not detoxified, even understanding that an ammonia and then nitrite spikes are part of cycling. According to Seachem it should be added every 48 hours during the cycling process. You may want to research this further.
> 
> ...


No pineconing at this time. Will plan to do a 25% change tomorrow though based on the ammonia and to keep the fin rot at bay, right?


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> No pineconing at this time. Will plan to do a 25% change tomorrow though based on the ammonia and to keep the fin rot at bay, right?


That sounds like a good plan. I hope he’s feeling better today.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> No pineconing at this time. Will plan to do a 25% change tomorrow though based on the ammonia and to keep the fin rot at bay, right?


Hi, I am wondering how Curly is doing?


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi, I am wondering how Curly is doing?


Thanks for your note. Things aren't getting better, though they don't seem worse either - however, the fish is spending most of its time at the top of the tank still. 

We have been changing 25% of the water every other day and appear to see some minor growth of the fins, however his behavior isn't better. He is still eating but the breathing is still labored and we think he's having trouble swimming down - he tried doing that yesterday and he kind of flipped over.

When he eats, he has now occasionally spit 1 of the 2-3 pellets out - it almost looks like he is taking big gasps of air.

I may start a new thread to see if anyone else can spot something that we are missing. But take a look at these pictures: Curly - August 11th (first photo) and the rest are October 1

The first one is from August 11th! All of this bad stuff started about two weeks ago, so in less than a month Curly went from the August 11th photo - full fins, bright colors - to what we see now. What happened so fast - and is it reversible - is the key question here.

Thank you for all of your help - I hope we can solve this.

-Rob


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

I don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to say a couple things real quick. So I'll just breeze through...

1. About the Prime, if I advised against it, I take it back. I was probably getting confused about something. Prime is not medicine. It's something that's fairly necessary, especially for newer tanks. Fully cycled tanks can go without it and just use conditioner, but if yours isn't fully cycled it can benefit from Prime.

2. How exactly is he gasping for breath? With his mouth, or with his gills? My betta pops his mouth open all the time when I'm around. In his case I think he's just expressing excitement. If your betta is just popping his mouth open under water here and there, I would assume it's nothing. I've even seen mine "yawn" where he'll open his mouth REAL wide and push his gills open for a quick second, but not in the same way as flaring. However, if he's gasping often with his gills then that's a legitimate problem.

3. At this point since he's spitting out his food, I am going to very highly recommend frozen foods now. It's very possible that he's just picky and doesn't want the pellets anymore. Given his state, he can't afford to be picky. I'm tellin' ya, order some frozen brine shrimp or something. If he eats it up, you'll know it's not another serious symptom and he can get a ton of nutrients from the shrimp (or whatever it ends up being). But if he refuses the shrimp, then we have a bigger problem. The reason why I'm thinking it has to do with the food is because he's not outright refusing the pellets. He's just spitting it out. If you want, you can try soaking the pellets in a bowl with some tank water in it, then give it to him. The solid roughness of the pellets can often be unappetizing for some bettas. Soaking can help. Although in my case, my betta wanted nothing to do with pellets, no matter how well I soaked them. I had a betta a few years ago as well. He ate pellets just fine for the first few months, then changed his mind about them out of the blue. In my opinion, if his ailments are not causing a problem with his appetite, then he shouldn't be able to resist frozen foods.

4. Have you taken some tank water to your local pet store to see if they can test it for anything that you might not be able to test for? I'm not sure what they could test for, but it's something worth looking into.

I think that's all I have at the moment. If I think of something else, I'll write some more. Fingers crossed for him!


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

The Prime is a must and it also is a water conditioner so you will stop the stress coat. It will absolutely detoxify any ammonia or nitrites that may be present in your tank water. I use prime every water change on all of my tanks. I also would recommend adding a dose every 48 hours while cycling a tank if yours is not cycled.

Do you use tap water? Whatever your water source is, I’d do a full test on the parameters on a cup of untreated tap water/source water to see if there is something going on with your tap/source.

Did you receive the Kordons yet? Also, did I send you the name of some vitamins I’d recommend now. It’s called Boyd’s Vitachem. It is a liquid packed with vitamins. You can let his pellets soak in it for a few mins, add it directly his water, and to his frozen food.

I agree that his breathing is labored still. Also, the fact that he’s flipping over could indicate swim bladder disorder. I do not see a bulge in his swim bladder but nevertheless, it may be why. Is he going poop?

I recommend boiling up a batch of Indian almond leaf tea if you have them. You’d just put 5 or 6 large Indian almond leaves in a large pot. Any pot will do, but I’d try for a big batch so you have a supply for future water changes. Just fill it up with water allowing room for it to boil. Make sure to add conditioner . Boil the leaves and check the color in a clear glass throughout and let it get to a deep burgundy color like bourbon. Sometimes it takes me hours. Allow it to cool to your tanks temp or about that temp and add it to his tank until his tank water is brown. I keep the extras in Mason Jars or any clean glass jar and refrigerate. This will absolutely help and at this point is way more effective than a leaf. Before adding, take any carbon from your filter but leave the rest of your biomedia in.

I feel your stress. I’m so sorry and wish there was more I can do. I don’t have enough experience with medications for what is going on, but if I go to my lfs this weekend, I will show them the video.

Are you adding aquarium salt (not epsom salt) to his tank water. I can’t say whether you should or shouldn’t, but you could research online or on the forum to see if it applies to Curly’s situation.

Also, there is another forum that Aquarium Co-op has that I’ve gotten really good help from and quickly. It’s called the C.A.R.E forum. You will probably get more help plus it’s always good to get a few opinions.

What I’m 100% comfortable with recommending are again the following,

PrIme is a must
Test your tap/source water
Absolutely definitely aIAL strong tea
Kordons Fish Protector
Boyd’s VitaChem
And another opinion and possibly more help on another forum - I like AC C.A.R.E
Lights off in his tank with a quiet environment around him - I even put soft meditation music on

if I think of more I will let you know.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Oh one more thing, make sure that you don’t see a film or rainbow color at the waters surface in your tank. If you do, turn up your bubbler or filter. Really let the top of the water agitate, if you’re worried about Curly, give him a nice spot where he can hide or retreat too. You don’t have to have it on high for too long if he’s really getting whipped around.

Otherwise, use that paper towel method every time you see the rainbow color - I use a flashlight to see if it’s there. The last thing you want to do is cut off any oxygen supply. Although bettas have the labyrinth organ, it’s important he can get good O2 under and over the waters surface. You don’t want him gulping in too much air at the top of the water. Plus, removing that film will allow for proper gas exchange in your tank.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Oh shoot, also make sure the pot you boil in doesn’t have any risidual dish detergent or soap in it. I’d rinse it several times and wipe down with a paper towel.

I actually bought a pot strictly for “fish stuff”. I made so much tea last year when one of my bettas was very ill for months. Also, good for boiling rocks and wood if you add them to your tanks.

With the large water changes, make sure you are replenishing your tank with essential bacteria. It’s totally safe to use bottled bacteria like Stability and Safe Start. I personally use Prime and Stability as my products of choice. They have a good reputation and always get the job done.

Also, sorry to be so specific if this is all common sense. I just know one little mistake with soap - even a drop - can cause a whole host of issues.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> I don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to say a couple things real quick. So I'll just breeze through...
> 
> 1. About the Prime, if I advised against it, I take it back. I was probably getting confused about something. Prime is not medicine. It's something that's fairly necessary, especially for newer tanks. Fully cycled tanks can go without it and just use conditioner, but if yours isn't fully cycled it can benefit from Prime.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your note again, Sammi!

Unfortunately, things aren't getting any better. With the exception of Curly still wanting to eat, he is spending most of the time at the top of the tank and isn't very active. He looks to be having trouble swimming and when he does, it's kind of sideways.

Here is a video we just took: 
New video by Robert Melstein

We have been changing 25% or so of the water every other day.

I purchased some frozen shrimp which we will break up and try to give him some. Petco tested the water confirmed everything looked fine. They used test strips which test for things similar to the API Freshwater Kit.

At this point, do you think we should try some sort of medication as a last resort? We do have Bettafix (though we know that's controversial), as well as some Furan and even an ich treatment - though there doesn't seem to be any sign of that.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> The Prime is a must and it also is a water conditioner so you will stop the stress coat. It will absolutely detoxify any ammonia or nitrites that may be present in your tank water. I use prime every water change on all of my tanks. I also would recommend adding a dose every 48 hours while cycling a tank if yours is not cycled.
> 
> Do you use tap water? Whatever your water source is, I’d do a full test on the parameters on a cup of untreated tap water/source water to see if there is something going on with your tap/source.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of your notes. I just posted a response below. I may try the Aquarium Co-op. Not sure what else to do at this point.

Rob


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Thanks for all of your notes. I just posted a response below. I may try the Aquarium Co-op. Not sure what else to do at this point.
> 
> Rob


Hi Rob,

That’s what I would do. I wish I knew someone on here that could help with meds. 

Did you get your IAL’s? They will help and will keep him comfortable because they relieve fish stress as well as all of the other good qualities I mentioned earlier. The Kordons Fish Protector too. I would try to get your tank water at least the color of tea. I’d go darker but that’s up to you. Trust me, it will really really help.

I’d make your first priority right now be the tea. If you still don’t have the leaves, there are already made products out there. I have a product I actually just put in a betta with fin tears/bites tank. It’s called Carib Sea Amazonia Black Water. I think there’s a betta tea at the chain stores too. You could ask the clerk or look up to see if it’s at your lfs.

this is the product:









CARIBSEA Liquid Amazon Blackwater Aquarium Solution, 8-oz bottle - Chewy.com


Buy CaribSea Liquid Amazon Blackwater Aquarium Solution, 8-oz bottle at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




www.chewy.com






You could always try General Cure by API. I’ve also heard people rave about Bettafix but I do know it’s controversial like you said.

See what you get for replies on AC CARE. I’ve been on their with questions several times and have gotten very quick help. I feel like their site/forum is more active than this one is right now.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> That’s what I would do. I wish I knew someone on here that could help with meds. I know @Veloran helped me when I was medicating my betta who was very ill last year. Maybe he can look your case over if he is still on the forum.
> 
> ...


Thanks! The IAL seems to be delayed in shipping, so I hope it gets here soon.

I posted something on the other forum - we'll see if we get any answers.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Thanks! The IAL seems to be delayed in shipping, so I hope it gets here soon.
> 
> I posted something on the other forum - we'll see if we get any answers.


Shipping has been so tough lately. And supplies. So frustrating.

Keep me posted. I will say a little prayer for Curly. I’m sending him good healthy energy tonight. Take care.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Shipping has been so tough lately. And supplies. So frustrating.
> 
> Keep me posted. I will say a little prayer for Curly. I’m sending him good healthy energy tonight. Take care.


Thank you, that's very kind of you.


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

YogisMom said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> That’s what I would do. I wish I knew someone on here that could help with meds. I know @Veloran helped me when I was medicating my betta who was very ill last year. Maybe he can look your case over if he is still on the forum.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. The tea and IAL is what I'd make as a priority as well. But if there is a delay and time is running out, medication might be necessary. I don't personally trust most medications being that they're sometimes hard on the betta and sometimes they're just not strong enough to handle it, not to mention the controversies surrounding many of them. Whereas the tea and IAL is subtle and isn't stressful to the betta. Instead it has more of a calming effect. I always have some on hand just in case. Go for the already made products if you have to, like YogisMom blackwater example. I never heard of it but it looks like a great product and hopefully they'll have it in stores. Either way you gotta get something in there _now_. Also if you check someplace for already made betta tea products like that blackwater, show those video clips to the people there if you haven't already and see what they have to say. Hopefully you'll be able to pick something like that up in a store near you instead of waiting forever for your IAL package to come. 

If you can't get anything like that at any local pet store and if nothing is coming in the mail, you might have to go the medical route. Concerning this, I'd ask elsewhere for more info on what medication to use while you're waiting for your IAL. There are a lot of disagreements here on what medications to use and when to use them, and most people here that I've noticed primarily advocate IAL and the rooibos tea. Checking other forums for more information on medications might be something to consider, like AC CARE that YogisMom suggested. Hopefully they can give more insight to the medical route if it comes to that. For now try your best to find some in-store betta tea products or something along those lines. I honestly didn't know that was even a thing in stores. We don't have anything like that where I live, but I really hope otherwise for you and Curly! If not, the next option would probably be looking for info on medications. I think meds should be a last resort, but it seems like it's coming to that. Fingers crossed for you guys!


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

Oh, one last thing. I think I brushed over something you said the other day about Curly flipping over? I was in a hurry and forgot to address it. Generally the first thought would be Swim Bladder Disease, but I'm not sure if that's the case or not. At the very least I don't see the distended belly that - as far as I know - is always present in these cases. But for all I know, the belly could be a symptom that shows up later. I'm not sure. Plus "flipping over" to one person might look like something else to another. For example, if he was swimming erratically and happened to flip real fast before righting himself, that could just be a symptom of stress. It all really depends. If he's still doing it, especially if he's appearing buoyant and floating on his side often, that's a big sign. The biggest problem is it seems like there's a piece of this puzzle that's missing, because as it is, it doesn't make sense. So aside from the IAL and rooibos tea etc. we're at a standstill for coming up with a concrete plan. The devil is always in the details.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

To add to what @SammiDraco said, sometimes fin damage alone can make swimming tougher and definitely require more energy and stressful. This is why having a place to rest is really recommended. If you can buy some hornwort or Anacharis to float or float some Anubias or Java fern, it would help him rest at the top of the water without so much effort. I do agree that with the absence of bloat, it doesn’t appear in the videos like it’s SBD. Especially if he’s still pooping. He’d be constantly having to upright himself and sinking to the bottom or floating up, that’s a sure sign. But, it’s so hard to say. I hope you’re getting the help you need on CARE.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> Oh, one last thing. I think I brushed over something you said the other day about Curly flipping over? I was in a hurry and forgot to address it. Generally the first thought would be Swim Bladder Disease, but I'm not sure if that's the case or not. At the very least I don't see the distended belly that - as far as I know - is always present in these cases. But for all I know, the belly could be a symptom that shows up later. I'm not sure. Plus "flipping over" to one person might look like something else to another. For example, if he was swimming erratically and happened to flip real fast before righting himself, that could just be a symptom of stress. It all really depends. If he's still doing it, especially if he's appearing buoyant and floating on his side often, that's a big sign. The biggest problem is it seems like there's a piece of this puzzle that's missing, because as it is, it doesn't make sense. So aside from the IAL and rooibos tea etc. we're at a standstill for coming up with a concrete plan. The devil is always in the details.


Got it, thank you. I do have some Kanaplex that I am debating giving him (was advised on that from CARE). Still waiting on the IAL.
We did buy frozen brine shrimp but it's "Spirulina Brine Shrimp." Is that ok?


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Got it, thank you. I do have some Kanaplex that I am debating giving him (was advised on that from CARE). Still waiting on the IAL.
> We did buy frozen brine shrimp but it's "Spirulina Brine Shrimp." Is that ok?


I’m not sure so I would check the other forum. I only feed my bettas frozen daphnia and bloodworms as a snack. I’m not against the regular frozen brine shrimp at all but I don’t know with the spirulina. It is a type of algae/Cyanobacteria and it’s nutritious for some fish and snails, but not sure with bettas. I don’t want him to get constipated and make things worse. I’m really sorry I can’t help more.


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

robm74 said:


> Got it, thank you. I do have some Kanaplex that I am debating giving him (was advised on that from CARE). Still waiting on the IAL.
> We did buy frozen brine shrimp but it's "Spirulina Brine Shrimp." Is that ok?


I can't really give any advice on the kanaplex, especially since we just don't know for sure what's going on with Curly. I will leave that to others to elaborate more on.

As for the spirulina brine shrimp, yes that's perfect. Just cut off a piece and let it thaw, and go ahead and feed it to him. It's a little hard to specify how much to feed him, since it doesn't come in single chunks like pellets are, but more like tiny granulated pieces. (At least that's how my frozen shrimp are. If yours aren't all granulated then nevermind what I said. 😋 ) So I would just say to feed him until he gets a little mild bulge in his belly. That'll show that he's had a good meal. Whatever has been thawed that he doesn't eat, you can wrap it up and put that in the fridge. I probably wouldn't keep it any longer than three days.

Also, I hope your IAL gets there soon! Geez it's taking a long time.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

SammiDraco said:


> I can't really give any advice on the kanaplex, especially since we just don't know for sure what's going on with Curly. I will leave that to others to elaborate more on.
> 
> As for the spirulina brine shrimp, yes that's perfect. Just cut off a piece and let it thaw, and go ahead and feed it to him. It's a little hard to specify how much to feed him, since it doesn't come in single chunks like pellets are, but more like tiny granulated pieces. (At least that's how my frozen shrimp are. If yours aren't all granulated then nevermind what I said. 😋 ) So I would just say to feed him until he gets a little mild bulge in his belly. That'll show that he's had a good meal. Whatever has been thawed that he doesn't eat, you can wrap it up and put that in the fridge. I probably wouldn't keep it any longer than three days.
> 
> Also, I hope your IAL gets there soon! Geez it's taking a long time.





robm74 said:


> Got it, thank you. I do have some Kanaplex that I am debating giving him (was advised on that from CARE). Still waiting on the IAL.
> We did buy frozen brine shrimp but it's "Spirulina Brine Shrimp." Is that ok?


I’m not sure if it’s the same for frozen brine shrimp but I know with the frozen daphnia and bloodworms, I usually soak the cube or part of one in a little tank water in a cup and feed a small amount when it melts. I don’t know if that helps with portioning. I’m horrible at eye-balling how much.


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## Cerulean Hydrodamalis (Sep 12, 2021)

I’m pretty new both on the forum and with keeping bettas, but research is pretty much what I do. I just wanted to share what looks likely to be a success story with my daughter’s betta, Theodore with the hope that it might encourage you and ease some of the nervousness of using meds. My adult daughter introduced me to keeping betta and has 5 males and 7 females all in planted tanks. Anyway, Theodore had been losing and splitting his fins and just not acting right for several weeks. My daughter thought it was stress related because the water always tested with pretty much perfect parameters (her pH is always on the high side). She first took out the snail, then changed his decor to more plants and less wood, then removed him from his 10 gal divided tank to a 5.5 gal all by himself. Nothing helped and he kept getting worse. This was over the span of about 3 months.

Then over just a few days, the fin loss got exponentially worse. His tail fin was in even more shreds and his dorsal fin was almost completely gone and looking to be even receding into his body. When I saw how bad it was, I started pouring over as many fish keeping and even veterinary sites as I could before and after work. I found that mixing kanaplex into the food with garlic drops and another Seachem product called Focus works on gram negative bacteria and internal infections. The Focus binds the Kanaplex to the food so that it isn’t diluted in the tank water and can work better internally. I also found that Kanaplex works well with a couple other medications: nitrofurazone and methylene blue. We ended up getting the Kanaplex and Focus mixed with Theodore’s food and put a product called Bettamax in the tank. Bettamax has nitrofurazone, methylene blue, sulfa medications, salt, and vitamins all in a powder. It’s been a little over a week of this treatment and the fin loss has stopped. His dorsal fin has even started to grow back, and the gray/dead looking scales are getting their blue color back. He’s also swimming much more smoothly and is not hiding like he had been. He’s even diving after the food that sinks and catching it like he used to. I’m attaching pictures of what Theodore looked like last Monday and then today. He’s not out of the woods yet, but I’m relieved at all the progress he’s made.

The Bettamax does tint the water blue and will stain just about anything. We did 3 doses with a rest day and a 25% water change in between each dose. Now, there’s no way to know if Curly is fighting the same thing that Theodore is. That’s why using a broad spectrum medicine is a good thing when the milder, more homeopathic type treatments aren’t helping. We don’t have to be certain because the medication will address multiple issues.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Cerulean Hydrodamalis said:


> I’m pretty new both on the forum and with keeping bettas, but research is pretty much what I do. I just wanted to share what looks likely to be a success story with my daughter’s betta, Theodore with the hope that it might encourage you and ease some of the nervousness of using meds. My adult daughter introduced me to keeping betta and has 5 males and 7 females all in planted tanks. Anyway, Theodore had been losing and splitting his fins and just not acting right for several weeks. My daughter thought it was stress related because the water always tested with pretty much perfect parameters (her pH is always on the high side). She first took out the snail, then changed his decor to more plants and less wood, then removed him from his 10 gal divided tank to a 5.5 gal all by himself. Nothing helped and he kept getting worse. This was over the span of about 3 months.
> 
> Then over just a few days, the fin loss got exponentially worse. His tail fin was in even more shreds and his dorsal fin was almost completely gone and looking to be even receding into his body. When I saw how bad it was, I started pouring over as many fish keeping and even veterinary sites as I could before and after work. I found that mixing kanaplex into the food with garlic drops and another Seachem product called Focus works on gram negative bacteria and internal infections. The Focus binds the Kanaplex to the food so that it isn’t diluted in the tank water and can work better internally. I also found that Kanaplex works well with a couple other medications: nitrofurazone and methylene blue. We ended up getting the Kanaplex and Focus mixed with Theodore’s food and put a product called Bettamax in the tank. Bettamax has nitrofurazone, methylene blue, sulfa medications, salt, and vitamins all in a powder. It’s been a little over a week of this treatment and the fin loss has stopped. His dorsal fin has even started to grow back, and the gray/dead looking scales are getting their blue color back. He’s also swimming much more smoothly and is not hiding like he had been. He’s even diving after the food that sinks and catching it like he used to. I’m attaching pictures of what Theodore looked like last Monday and then today. He’s not out of the woods yet, but I’m relieved at all the progress he’s made.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info and encouragement. We will look to try this. 

It doesn't look like the fins have gotten worse on Curly since we started the more frequent water changes, but he hasn't gotten much better either. If you see the "before" and "current" photos attached, what's most concerning is that his entire front fins - just below his "chin" are almost all gone. Those are the reddish ones. 

Do you know if these will grow back? We're operating on a hunch that these front fins allow him to steer and better maintain buoyancy, because when he does swim he can't really navigate well.

Check out these videos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/9BvveSTXJQLjApmq5 

Especially the first one - both from today - where he tries to swim down to the bottom of the tank but kind of flips over. Not sure if you see anything in these that we are missing. Again, thanks!


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## Cerulean Hydrodamalis (Sep 12, 2021)

robm74 said:


> Thanks for the info and encouragement. We will look to try this.
> 
> It doesn't look like the fins have gotten worse on Curly since we started the more frequent water changes, but he hasn't gotten much better either. If you see the "before" and "current" photos attached, what's most concerning is that his entire front fins - just below his "chin" are almost all gone. Those are the reddish ones.
> 
> ...


Hi Rob,

I did watch the videos and the main thing I noticed was the ”bulge” on his side where his swim bladder would be. I circled it in red on the still frame I captured from your video. One of my daughter’s bettas had this issue once and mainly bobbed at the surface. Once the bulge could no longer be seen, he was swimming normally. My guess would be that he might either have an internal infection that has altered his ability to control his swim bladder or he is just not used to the recent change in food and needs more time to adapt to it. Mixing the Kanaplex you already have with his food should clear up any internal infections if there are any. I read where the medicated food should be fed for all meals for 3 weeks then give a week’s rest and do a second course if the condition hasn’t cleared. You can mix the Kanaplex with pellets (add a little bit of tank water to soften them), flakes, or frozen… basically any kind of food. Mix it according to the directions on Seachem’s website and refrigerate the overage for no more than 5 days before making a new batch.

As far as the fins growing back… sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. Two of my daughters bettas (Hecate and Einstein) survived the Texas freeze last February. They went without filtration, heat, light, and food for a week because there was no power. It was 28 deg in the house at one point! They all looked dead when their tanks were finally unwrapped but were evidently only in suspended animation because of the cold. Einstein lost a lot of his fins (he’s a dumbo plakat), but they grew back. Hecate still hasn’t gotten all of her tail fin back, and she might not. She is also now blind, but can find her food if we make sure it falls onto the Viking ship centerpiece in her side of the 20 gal they share and has no trouble navigating her side. She does startle herself if one of the plants shifts and she bumps into it, though. Sadly, Argentum and Eric didn’t make it. They were in separate smaller tanks and we’re not sure if they were warmed up too fast and had a second temperature shock or if they just didn’t have enough dissolved oxygen in the tanks because of the smaller water volume. All that to say it’s too soon to tell if they will grow back or not… sorry…


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

I don't mean to cause any confusion, but I don't believe the bulge you're mentioning is swim bladder disease. It's at the wrong part of the anatomy. The swim bladder is much closer to the stomach than what's circled on the picture. To me, that just looks like part of the spine. What I can't tell is if there's something irregular about it or if it's because he's too skinny or it's just a shadow. Here's a good example of the bulge you would see in swim bladder disease.









As for those fins, those are his ventral fins. They do help with steering, though the pectorals handle most of the swimming. But it can definitely play a roll in swimming poorly. He doesn't appear to be swimming funny due to SBD but I can't tell if it's 100% due to his missing ventral fins. They will grow back in time. All fins will, assuming the water is clean and their immune system is healthy. The closet they get down to the body, the longer it'll take. If the tail fin is almost completely gone, for example, I've seen it take nearly a year for it to grow all the way back.


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## Cerulean Hydrodamalis (Sep 12, 2021)

SammiDraco said:


> I don't mean to cause any confusion, but I don't believe the bulge you're mentioning is swim bladder disease. It's at the wrong part of the anatomy. *The swim bladder is much closer to the stomach than what's circled on the picture. To me, that just looks like part of the spine.* What I can't tell is if there's something irregular about it or if it's because he's too skinny or it's just a shadow. Here's a good example of the bulge you would see in swim bladder disease.
> View attachment 1034289
> 
> 
> As for those fins, those are his ventral fins. They do help with steering, though the pectorals handle most of the swimming. But it can definitely play a roll in swimming poorly. He doesn't appear to be swimming funny due to SBD but I can't tell if it's 100% due to his missing ventral fins. They will grow back in time. All fins will, assuming the water is clean and their immune system is healthy. The closet they get down to the body, the longer it'll take. If the tail fin is almost completely gone, for example, I've seen it take nearly a year for it to grow all the way back.


I know many others on here are more knowledgeable than myself on betta care, but like I said earlier, research is my thing. I have a background in chemistry and am currently the quality manager for an aerospace company…. I research all manner of things day in and day out. I consulted veterinary sites and scholarly journals to get an idea of betta anatomy in order to help my daughter’s betta. This is the most clear of all the diagrams of the internal organs of betta with regards to other fish. Most of the other diagrams concerned goldfish or koi.










I also found an image of a betta that had been taken to a vet and gotten an X-ray. As you can see below, the black cavity filled with air is more toward the peduncle and not in front of the anus. That area on the x-ray is gray and filled with fluid. The swim bladder is filled with air to allow the fish to control its buoyancy. It’s location corresponds quite well to that area I circled.










I’m almost certain you know better than I do on day to day care and the best way to set up a tank for the long term health and happiness of a betta fish, but I’m going to stick to my guns on this particular point. I do hope there’s no hard feelings! I hate stepping on toes when first joining a new group.

EDIT: I’m not saying Curly has what’s known as swim bladder disease. Just that I noticed when that area stood out on my daughter’s fish, he had trouble swimming and getting away from the top of the water. When it was not sticking out from his side in a noticeable bulge, he swam well with no issues. There could be any number of reasons from water chemistry, type or amount of food given, to internal bacterial or viral infections that result in what was observed.

EDIT#2: My apologies, I didn’t cite where I got those photos… shame on me. The anatomy chart came from a Vietnamese blog about the history and habitat of betta and the x-ray came from the blog of a betta keeper who took his sick fish to a vet. There were several other charts on other sites depicting the internal anatomy. They were consistent with each other, but again I felt this one was the most clear. And now that I’m home from work it’s bedtime.


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## SammiDraco (Mar 24, 2021)

Cerulean Hydrodamalis said:


> I know many others on here are more knowledgeable than myself on betta care, but like I said earlier, research is my thing. I have a background in chemistry and am currently the quality manager for an aerospace company…. I research all manner of things day in and day out. I consulted veterinary sites and scholarly journals to get an idea of betta anatomy in order to help my daughter’s betta. This is the most clear of all the diagrams of the internal organs of betta with regards to other fish. Most of the other diagrams concerned goldfish or koi.
> 
> View attachment 1034290
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get into any further arguments about the issue, but just to let you know, throwing around your intellectual background and/or positions in attempts to make a superior point is not necessary. It's irrelevant to the matter at hand. You can easily leave all that out and stick with the research to prove your point. So I'm going to refrain from using the same card and let you assume whatever you want about another's intellect. Sorry, but that's how it comes across when you bring that into the equation.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Hi,
The filter seems to be pushing him around a bit. I don’t think it is SBD. He is still quite underweight so a bulges could also come from his body being thin. IMO, with his fin loss he is going to have trouble swimming. Also in one video it appeared he swam to the bottom and he grabbed a piece of leftover food.

SBD is pretty clear cut based on the way thr betta is swimming. I do not see this. Also, SBD is not a disease itself but a symptom. Something would need to cause this, most of the time from being bloated, which he is not. Gulping air for a long time at the top of the water can also cause gas and bloat.

If you are convinced it’s swim bladder, you could try an epsom salt bath. I still am sticking to myself and @SammiDraco recommendations that are important for fin damage. IAL tea, Kordons if you can find it. Clean water and plenty of hiding places and floaters at the top of the water and throughout the tank. The vitamins are helpful as well along with a little frozen food or soak the pellets in it.

If you do these or at least a couple with IAL tea or the Amazon Blackwater by Carib Sea, his fins will heal and he will be able to swim normally again and accept the current. If you can turn the filter down or place a tall plant or floating plants in front of it, that should break up the flow.

From your videos, there is a lot of open space in your tank.

Medications are fine in certain situations. If he was clearly suffering, yes, but I would use them for emergency use. They are extremely hard on them and sometimes can worsen the situation. You’re goal right now is to really give him places fo retreat and rest throughout the tank.

So:
IAL tea or Amazon Blackwater tea
Kordons and Boyd vita Chem multivitamin (sold on Amazon)
Epsom Salt bath if you are convinced it’s swim bladder disease - only you truly know. I will attach a video of SBD.
And lots of live or silk plants in particular floaters. Frog bit, Anacharis, Hornwort, Pennywort are all excellent
Or at least the betta hammock
Slow or obstruct filter flow
Lights out and rest

Then if all of these do not help, you can resort to medications. But again, only you know. In the vids I do not see SBD, I see Curly has bad fin damage and too strong a current. He also does not have enough places to snuggle up in. The IAL’s are also anti-bacterial and anti-fungal to prevent infection in those delicate fins that are trying to heal.


I know I sound like a broken record. If you do all of the above or just a strong IAL tea and he is declining rapidly and clearly in pain or distress, this calls for meds like Kanaplex.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

The white betta


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

This poor little betta has a severe case. Obviously Curly has not reached this point, thankfully, but treatment would be the same with an epsom salt bath and all of my other recommendations. This fish may require meds but see how he can’t right himself. And keeps dropping. My poor betta had a severe case of SBD along with issue causing it, he had to hold himself up on floating plants or he would literally sink to the bottom. Just swimming to the top of the tank takes a lot of effort. I let a Java fern point sideways sticking out from behind the heater at the top of the water. He would lay on it like a bed sometimes sideways - similar to the betta hammock with more cover around him, You can use a suction cup to do this. He was very ill to begin with and his whole body was affected but SBD was a side effect and happened so I am familiar with it, sadly in my case.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hi. that bulge is in the area of his swim bladder and with him being a little emaciated, it would be more pronounced.
SBD would typically cause them to sink like a rock or bob like a cork.

Now this little guy seems to be languishing with some issues. Are you able to get him into a hospital tank? If not, are you able to take all of the decorations out of his tank, gravel and all.
Leave him in a bare tank (heater and filter included in the tank). You can add a decoration for him to rest near the top, but keep it as minimal as possible. You may also include the IAL if you have started it. With his tank being so bare, you'll want to cover it down with a dark towel to help him feel more secure.
Start with that and give him a few days, if he's still having more issues, we can look at moving him to a Methylene Blue dip.

We can hold the Kanaplex as a last resort.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Hi. that bulge is in the area of his swim bladder and with him being a little emaciated, it would be more pronounced.
> SBD would typically cause them to sink like a rock or bob like a cork.
> 
> Now this little guy seems to be languishing with some issues. Are you able to get him into a hospital tank? If not, are you able to take all of the decorations out of his tank, gravel and all.
> ...


I finally got a shipment of Indian Almond Leaf and haven't added it, yet. Just was a bit concerned - I've read a couple of reviews where the IAL killed someone's fish possibly due to a toxic batch? But if there isn't a lot of risk there, we may try. 

I've also held off with the KanaPlex and Focus, just because things aren't getting worse - though they aren't getting much better either. The dorsal and tail fins seem to be regrowing a bit but the ventrals not at all.

Do you think taking everything out of the tank won't be too stressful now?

We've added San Francisco Bay Brand fish food to his diet - frozen SPIRULINA brine shrimp. This is what the store had. Is spirulina okay for bettas? https://www.sfbb.com/Spirulina-Brine-Shrimp_41.php.html

Attached are updated photos and a video here: New video by Robert Melstein

And yes, there still looks to be some sort of bulge still behind his left gill.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

robm74 said:


> I finally got a shipment of Indian Almond Leaf and haven't added it, yet. Just was a bit concerned - I've read a couple of reviews where the IAL killed someone's fish possibly due to a toxic batch? But if there isn't a lot of risk there, we may try.
> 
> I've also held off with the KanaPlex and Focus, just because things aren't getting worse - though they aren't getting much better either. The dorsal and tail fins seem to be regrowing a bit but the ventrals not at all.
> 
> ...


That bulge could be a tumor or a cyst but given his state it's something we can deal with at a later date.
Something is going on with his water, and I'd like to eliminate all sources of possible contamination which is why having a bare tank would help. It would also make it easier to see the color of his poop. BTW, do you know what his poop looks like at this time?

If you've upped his feedings and he's still not putting on weight, it's possible that we're dealing with a parasite as well.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> I finally got a shipment of Indian Almond Leaf and haven't added it, yet. Just was a bit concerned - I've read a couple of reviews where the IAL killed someone's fish possibly due to a toxic batch? But if there isn't a lot of risk there, we may try.
> 
> I've also held off with the KanaPlex and Focus, just because things aren't getting worse - though they aren't getting much better either. The dorsal and tail fins seem to be regrowing a bit but the ventrals not at all.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I am happy to see Curly’s updated Video. He looks like he definitely made some improvement. I agree with @Veloran recommendations since he is much more knowledgeable on dealing with medications and more serious health issues than I am.

I also would not be concerned with toxic effects from IAL. If you’d like to send me the brand of leaves or company you ordered from, I can let you know if I’ve used that brand. I’ve used many and have never known anyone personally or on the forum that has had ill effects from the IAL ever. They’ve always proven beneficial.

Since veloran is only recommending you float one and you have a smaller tank, you don’t need a huge leaf. Just enough to provide him with some cover and release some tannins. Maybe 3” by 2” piece - you can cut it with clean scissors and just give it a little rinse in conditioner water. The leaf will help though and when he’s feeling better with whatever else is ailing him and his fins are still healing, you could prep a tea but one thing at a time. I’m glad you got them.

And the spirulina brine shrimp and the San Francisco Bay brand are both great. Packed with nutrients. If he refuses it, there are other frozen food options but I’d definitely try them. As for when to feed him this, I will let @Veloran advise on how much and how often.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> That bulge could be a tumor or a cyst but given his state it's something we can deal with at a later date.
> Something is going on with his water, and I'd like to eliminate all sources of possible contamination which is why having a bare tank would help. It would also make it easier to see the color of his poop. BTW, do you know what his poop looks like at this time?
> 
> If you've upped his feedings and he's still not putting on weight, it's possible that we're dealing with a parasite as well.


I appreciate the bare tank suggestion, but haven't taken that step yet. He seems to be swimming better and is more active, though he still spends most of his time at the top of the tank. I will try to see the color of his poop.

Do you think it's too traumatic to take everything out of the tank right now? I understand where you are coming from, but also didn't want to stress the fish.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am happy to see Curly’s updated Video. He looks like he definitely made some improvement. I agree with @Veloran recommendations since he is much more knowledgeable on dealing with medications and more serious health issues than I am.
> 
> ...


This is the brand of leaf I bought: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HG1TMIW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Would you agree that it's okay to boil it before using it to cut down the chance of contamination? 
Curly seems to be doing better - more energy but still spending most of his day at the top of the tank.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

I haven't used that vendor before but they have a ton of reviews so it should be fine, maybe someone who's bought it before can chime in. I couldn't find the country from which they source their leaves but I'll assume they're a reputable vendor.

What I like to do is to try to identify the source of the problem as quickly as possible and eliminate it. My reasoning is if they start a downslide, then you'll have to stress them anyway, only now they'll be weaker. But always remember, I'm only giving advice, ultimately, it's your pet and only you can make the decision as to what you feel is in their best interest.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> This is the brand of leaf I bought: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HG1TMIW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Would you agree that it's okay to boil it before using it to cut down the chance of contamination?
> Curly seems to be doing better - more energy but still spending most of his day at the top of the tank.


Hi,
These are fine. I’ve bought both the bigger leaves and the tiny ones they sell. They don’t leach a lot of tannins like some of the others I normally buy so don’t be shy letting half of a leaf float. I usually buy Tantora and Matchimma on Amazon now because they are real dark and leathery and stronger IMO. Definitely use the ones you bought.

Just give it a good rinse first. Don’t boil them unless you are going to use the tea they produce and not the leaves. The leaves will break down in the boiling water to make the tea, which is excellent, but the leaf after boiling will not be as effective since most of the tannins (the important part) will be boiled out of them.

Rinsing the leaf and dropping is fine or brew up a strong tea with about 6 in a large pot, 3 in a small/medium sized pot with conditioner water. Let them boil for a while, sometimes an hour or more, until it’s a dark bourbon colored brown and add a small amount to the tank (after allowing it to cool) so it literally looks like Curly is swimming in tea! Either method works thoigh.

You’re in good hands with @Veloran. And the tannins will be excellent for Curly.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> This is the brand of leaf I bought: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HG1TMIW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Would you agree that it's okay to boil it before using it to cut down the chance of contamination?
> Curly seems to be doing better - more energy but still spending most of his day at the top of the tank.


And one more thing, I’ve brewed many many batches of tea and used leaves for years. I have never once had an adverse effect and honestly no one else I’ve met has either. There’s always going to be negative reviews for every product on the market. Obviously, if you see fuzzy growth like mold on the leaf do not use, just common sense stuff, otherwise, no worries. If you feel more comfortable sending me a pic of a few leaves, I can take a peek to make sure they look good. But I trust they are good.

Obviously if it’s just not sitting right with you and you feel more comfortable, you can give it a boil for a few mins, maybe 5 mins, and drop it in the tank. It may no longer float, but should still leach tannins. I’d boil up tea with a few leaves though since you’re already at it, you’ll boil one for a few mins, remove that, drop in tank, and boil the rest for an hour or until you reach that bourbon color. Refrigerate the rest in glass jars. Mason jars or even old jelly/jam jars if they are cleaned out exceptionally well with zero soap residue.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Hi Rob, 

How is Curly doing?


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> How is Curly doing?


Thank you for checking in. Things had been going well, trending in the right direction but over the past couple of weeks have taken a turn for the worse. See photos. The rear fin is curled and the main one underneath is torn. We dont know what happened. He barely can swim but is still eating. We are going to do some frequent water changes ASAP. Hope we can save him.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Thank you for checking in. Things had been going well, trending in the right direction but over the past couple of weeks have taken a turn for the worse. See photos. The rear fin is curled and the main one underneath is torn. We dont know what happened. He barely can swim but is still eating. We are going to do some frequent water changes ASAP. Hope we can save him.
> View attachment 1036462
> 
> View attachment 1036461
> ...


Hi Rob, I’m real sorry to hear this. I’m glad he was doing well for some time but I know how disappointing it is when things turn again. If you still have the Indian almond leaves, definitely use those. Float or tea. I know you already know all my typical advice so it’s all the same with increased wc, leaves or tea, maybe keep his tank light out or dimmed if you can. I see the Kordons bottle so that’s great you’re using it. 

When you say he can barely swim, is he mainly hanging out at the surface or bottom of the tank. Have you noticed any he’s fighting to swim? Like with SBD?

Remind me, did you go through a round of Kanaplex or Furan2 with help from @Veloran?

Also, how is Curly’s attitude? Does he seem depressed? Is he responsive to you, or sort of hiding from you? How is his breathing? Does it seem labored? I know that was an issue before.

I’m hoping someone can offer some insight on this but I notice his eye looks cloudy… possibly. Did you notice this or is it just the pic quality? It might be due to age but I’m wondering if it could be an indication of another illness. 

If you’d like to list your parameters, that would be great, too. Or any other details you think are important. Curly is a true fighter.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hi, do you have access to a hospital tank? Even a clean tupperware storage container would work.
If you want to try to hit this thing hard, get him into a hospital and start on the Kanaplex. We might be a little beyond the methylene blue at this point.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi Rob, I’m real sorry to hear this. I’m glad he was doing well for some time but I know how disappointing it is when things turn again. If you still have the Indian almond leaves, definitely use those. Float or tea. I know you already know all my typical advice so it’s all the same with increased wc, leaves or tea, maybe keep his tank light out or dimmed if you can. I see the Kordons bottle so that’s great you’re using it.
> 
> When you say he can barely swim, is he mainly hanging out at the surface or bottom of the tank. Have you noticed any he’s fighting to swim? Like with SBD?
> 
> ...


Thanks again for getting back to me.

Here are some just taken photos and a short video: 8 new items by Robert Melstein

As you can see, the fins are not in good shape - concerned that once they get to his body, it's all over.

We have never medicated him - tried just focusing on water quality and food - but wonder if it's time to try. I have Kanaplex and API Fin Cure ready to go. If we didn't add a medicine, our plan was to do another 25-40% water change tomorrow (we did a 60-70% water change yesterday).

He is almost exclusively hanging out at the top of the tank. When we feed him, if the food pellets drop he tries to go after them by diving. He definitely looks like he's having trouble swimming. When we shut his light off, he does try to swim around a bit - this is usual behavior for him; maybe he sees his reflection better. The breathing doesn't seem too labored though.

His demeanor doesn't seem too bad, except he's just sitting at the top of the tank. When our son comes into the room, he does respond.

As for parameters, I checked everything yesterday. pH was about 7.6 but this is consistent, 0 nitrites, possibly slightly elevated nitrates but hard to tell, ammonia looked to be 0 to .25 ppm. Temperature is about 78-80.

One other variable: A few weeks back we started feeding him San Francisco Bay Brand Frozen Spirulina Brine Shrimp. He really likes it, but it's hard to manage in the tank - anything that he doesn't eat floats around and to the bottom and it's hard to remove. We're thinking this may be leading to a change in tank parameters and leading to the fin rot.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Hi, do you have access to a hospital tank? Even a clean tupperware storage container would work.
> If you want to try to hit this thing hard, get him into a hospital and start on the Kanaplex. We might be a little beyond the methylene blue at this point.


Can you clarify this for me? Do we take him out of his current tank, put him in a small tupperware-like container, and add the Kanaplex to this hospital "tank" - the amount of the dose whch would be based on the size of the tupperware?

Could trying to get him out of his tank cause a lot of stress - and make things worse? Or do you think we're beyond this point?
Pics and video of his current condition: 8 new items by Robert Melstein


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Can you clarify this for me? Do we take him out of his current tank, put him in a small tupperware-like container, and add the Kanaplex to this hospital "tank" - the amount of the dose whch would be based on the size of the tupperware?
> 
> Could trying to get him out of his tank cause a lot of stress - and make things worse? Or do you think we're beyond this point?
> Pics and video of his current condition: 8 new items by Robert Melstein


Hi Rob,
Poor Curly. I would put him in about a 1-1.5 gallon Tupperware or fish bowl with a heater and bubbler and start medicating. Yes, you’re right about dosing. On the pkg for it it says to give with food but I just add it to the water. The times I’ve used it my fish were refusing food so it’s your choice since he’s eating. 

I think at this point removing him won’t be stressful. I would use a cup to remove and move him instead of a net. You could scoop him out with it. If you want to net him though, no worries.

You’ll want to make sure the temp is the same as his current tank, the water is conditioned. I would add the Kordons because it’s made to allow medications to bind better as well as the other benefits. You could also put an IAL in for some cover. I don’t think a filter is necessary as long as there is a bubbler in there.

The frozen food shouldn’t cause a huge problem as long as wc are frequent (he’s in a 2.5G right?). I use tweezers to feed my bettas frozen food. It really helps. I make sure they get it all until next piece. With the daphnia I use a dropper. Anyway, I totally get it and that’s a great question too.

I think you’ll feel better when you have him settled in the hospital. Keep it dark and quiet and think all good thoughts. Kanaplex is strong but very effective too. There are always risks since they are such fragile little fish but it will tackle bacteria or fungal infections.

Good Luck! @Veloran may have better or different instructions and he’s the pro when it comes to meds for bettas so go with his advice if it’s different than mine.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hey Rob, I'm so sorry, I kept hitting refresh on the page daily and because it saw I was on the page it never notified me via icon of an update.
At this point, with what you mentioned about the brine shrimp possibly fouling his tank, I think it would be beneficial to remove him and put him in the hospital tank and dose him there while you do a deep clean on his home.
While it may be stressful for him, I think it would be less stressful than trying to clean his tank with him in it. It would also allow you to get a much deeper clean on his original tank.

Another option if you don't have an appropriate hospital tank would be to remove everything from his original tank (gravel and all) and dose his meds in there. Because his tank would be bare, you would want to cover it with a dark cloth to help him feel more secure. This of course would require removing (cupping) him once and then putting him back.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

We weren't able to get him a hospital tank, so we went with the three day course of Kanaplex in his current environment. The third dose was given yesterday (not via food, just dropping it into the tank). Main reason for this is that it seems the fish is having trouble eating. He wants to eat but sometimes is spitting out the pellets a couple of minutes after we give them. He's also having more trouble swimming and as you can see, the fin situation is getting worse.

Are we pretty much at the end here, sadly? Or, is there another treatment to try? If there is anything else to treat with, we can try something as the hospital tank.

New pictures here:
8 new items by Robert Melstein

Thank you all for your continued help.


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> We weren't able to get him a hospital tank, so we went with the three day course of Kanaplex in his current environment. The third dose was given yesterday (not via food, just dropping it into the tank). Main reason for this is that it seems the fish is having trouble eating. He wants to eat but sometimes is spitting out the pellets a couple of minutes after we give them. He's also having more trouble swimming and as you can see, the fin situation is getting worse.
> 
> Are we pretty much at the end here, sadly? Or, is there another treatment to try? If there is anything else to treat with, we can try something as the hospital tank.
> 
> ...


Hi Rob,
How is Curly? Did he respond to the treatment in any way? I’m sorry i am just seeing your latest post now. I don’t even know what to say. It just breaks my heart seeing him. I will be on the forum throughout the day/evening to see if you replied. 

Lauren


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

YogisMom said:


> Hi Rob,
> How is Curly? Did he respond to the treatment in any way? I’m sorry i am just seeing your latest post now. I don’t even know what to say. It just breaks my heart seeing him. I will be on the forum throughout the day/evening to see if you replied.
> 
> Lauren


Hi Lauren, 
Not much improvement. On another board, someone said to do another course of the Kanaplex - finish the treatment - and then do another antibiotic (like Furan). 

Here are some more photos: 6 new items by Robert Melstein

He seems to be having some trouble eating - he is spitting out a pellet or two after trying to chew them.

At this point, we will probably try the meds again. Thanks for checking in!

-Rob


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

Hi Rob,
I’m so sorry. it makes me so sad.

His gills look swollen to me but he doesn’t appear to be breathing rapidly. I’m wondering if he has gill flukes. I’d have to do some research but you could always mention this on the other forum. It could also be a fungal infection.

I’m hoping @Veloran can advise further but I think another round of Kanaplex is aidea. Furan 2 is good too. You could do both at once from what I’m reading online. I can’t advise on how much to use but I know this combo of meds is ok.

I’m wondering if you should try a methalyne blue dip as well. Do you happen to have any? Has anyone on the other forum mentioned this. I don’t think it will hurt. It can be hard to find locally for me, but now I keep it on hand for these types of emergencies.

This is what it looks like but I’m sure there’s other brands.

I will keep Curly in my thoughts.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Hey, this is a tough one, but I really do believe that he needs to get out of the environment.
Would it be possible to clear out his tank. Cup him, take everything out and put him in with just fresh water, his heater and his filter.
While the Kanaplex may help, if there's something in the water that's affecting him, he will just keep on regressing.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Hey, this is a tough one, but I really do believe that he needs to get out of the environment.
> Would it be possible to clear out his tank. Cup him, take everything out and put him in with just fresh water, his heater and his filter.
> While the Kanaplex may help, if there's something in the water that's affecting him, he will just keep on regressing.


I am in the process of this right now. I got him into a 1/2 gallon holding tank, and am cleaning everything in hot water in his original tank. Will refill his original (2.5 gallon) tank with fresh water and maybe just his gravel, log, heater and aerator (no filter) so he has something familiar and then treat with Jungle Fungus Clear and Kanaplex. Let me know if anything doesn't sound right.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Don't put the log, doesn't seem like he's using it anyway, I want to make sure it's not leeching.
Also, cover his tank with a dark towel as it will be pretty sparse in there, it will make him feel more secure.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Don't put the log, doesn't seem like he's using it anyway, I want to make sure it's not leeching.
> Also, cover his tank with a dark towel as it will be pretty sparse in there, it will make him feel more secure.


Hi again - I am looking for some advice based on the following update.
We treated Curly with Kanaplex and Jungle Fizz Fungus cure. We waited about 2 weeks and then a few days ago tried again with the Kanaplex blended into his food with Focus.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have helped with the fin rot. Things don't look like they've gotten worse, but they don't seem to be turning the corner either.

He is still eating, but occasionally spits out a pellet here and there. In terms of behavior, he mostly spends his days at the top of the tank. When he sees me, he does become active but it's hard for him to swim and kind of just floats back up to the surface.

On another board I was advised to try Aqua Cipro - as maybe the previous meds did not work and this infection is just stubborn.

Nitrates and nitrites are 0, pH is 7.6 (this is how it's always been), ammonia looks to be 0.25 ppm - will do a 25% water change tomorrow.

Anyone have any further advice? Thank you!

Rob


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## Momofbetta (May 16, 2020)

Hi Rob,

just read through everything to catch up. While I absolutely admire your dedication, at this point I would be considering euthanasia. It may not be the popular answer but you have tried countless things over the course of a few months. Bettas are sturdy little fish and he just has not improved as should be expected. He is extremely thin already and given that he refuses to eat, he just doesn’t have the physical strength/ability to recover.

Pet store bettas are notorious for being horribly inbred and sickly.

You have gone above and beyond for Curly but I think it might be time to let him rest❤


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

Can you refresh me, is he in a hospital tank?
At this point he might need to be to eliminate a contaminant in the environment.

I'm not familiar with *Aqua-Cipro* , I'll need to look it up in detail but it looks to do the same job as Kanaplex. Kanaplex is usually the big on the block with the next step being a Kanaplex / Furan 2 combo. It's rough on the fish but knocks out most everything that is infectious.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Can you refresh me, is he in a hospital tank?
> At this point he might need to be to eliminate a contaminant in the environment.
> 
> I'm not familiar with *Aqua-Cipro* , I'll need to look it up in detail but it looks to do the same job as Kanaplex. Kanaplex is usually the big on the block with the next step being a Kanaplex / Furan 2 combo. It's rough on the fish but knocks out most everything that is infectious.





Momofbetta said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> just read through everything to catch up. While I absolutely admire your dedication, at this point I would be considering euthanasia. It may not be the popular answer but you have tried countless things over the course of a few months. Bettas are sturdy little fish and he just has not improved as should be expected. He is extremely thin already and given that he refuses to eat, he just doesn’t have the physical strength/ability to recover.
> 
> ...





Momofbetta said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> just read through everything to catch up. While I absolutely admire your dedication, at this point I would be considering euthanasia. It may not be the popular answer but you have tried countless things over the course of a few months. Bettas are sturdy little fish and he just has not improved as should be expected. He is extremely thin already and given that he refuses to eat, he just doesn’t have the physical strength/ability to recover.
> 
> ...


Hi and thanks for your response. To clarify, he doesn't refuse to eat at all - at least not for now. He goes for both the Northfin Betta Bits and the San Francisco Bay Frozen Spirulina Shrimp. But when the food drops from the top of the tank, he has a very hard time getting it, as his lack of fins seem to make it hard for him to swim. He certainly seems to have life in him. But for the life of me, can't figure out why he has experienced so much fin rot and that it doesn't seem to be reversing - after multiple rounds of Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus Fizz.


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## robm74 (Aug 4, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Can you refresh me, is he in a hospital tank?
> At this point he might need to be to eliminate a contaminant in the environment.
> 
> I'm not familiar with *Aqua-Cipro* , I'll need to look it up in detail but it looks to do the same job as Kanaplex. Kanaplex is usually the big on the block with the next step being a Kanaplex / Furan 2 combo. It's rough on the fish but knocks out most everything that is infectious.


Yea, we have done multiple rounds of Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus Fizz but can't seem to reverse the fin rot. Today was his one year birthday - our son was happy he's made it this far, the last betta didn't. He's eating okay, but has a hard time chasing the food - and then seems to get winded and stays at the top of the tank.

Here's a short video from just a little while ago (please excuse the off key birthday singing!): Curly Birthday Video

And a couple more shots: Curly - Week of Jan 17th, 2022

You can see he's still responsive, but the fins are still an issue. We took out the ceramic log but returned the silk plants today (for the past couple of weeks, we had nothing in the tank)


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## YogisMom (Jul 7, 2020)

robm74 said:


> Yea, we have done multiple rounds of Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus Fizz but can't seem to reverse the fin rot. Today was his one year birthday - our son was happy he's made it this far, the last betta didn't. He's eating okay, but has a hard time chasing the food - and then seems to get winded and stays at the top of the tank.
> 
> Here's a short video from just a little while ago (please excuse the off key birthday singing!): Curly Birthday Video
> 
> ...


Hi Rob, happy birthday to Curly 💕! Sadly, from what I see, he looks very weak and the fin damage/rot is still extremely severe.

Since he’s been so heavily medicated over the course of the last few months to no avail, if he were my betta, I’d start considering quality over quantity of life. I hate even saying this because I know it’s so hard, but maybe at this point, you should let him live out the life he’s living very comfortably, lights off or very low, nice clean warm water with a lot of IAL’s or tea and stopping the medication. You could continue the Kordons Fish Protector since it does have stress relieving properties. Then let nature take care of the rest. I worry he may be suffering and that the meds are causing more damage instead of working to his benefit.

The other course, would be euthanasia. I recently had to euthanize one of our bettas. He was so amazing and like Curly, had extensive fin scale and
health issues. Meds gave us extra time with him, but did not give him the type of improvement it would take to give him a joyful healthy fishy life because the meds take their toll in other ways and his organs began to fail. It was a very very hard scary sad decision, but with clove oil done as instructed, he died quickly, peacefully and is in a happier place now. It’s hard to watch your pet suffer and you want to keep fighting, but we had to look at the quality of life he was living, and there was none left. We weren’t giving up on him, we were taking away the pain.

This is me though. You’ve fought hard for Curly and have been completely dedicated to him, but I don’t see any improvement in his fins and he looks unwell like he may be suffering internal issues or disease and the medications are tough on bettas little bodies.

You know I’ve been rooting for Curly all along and how much I admire your continued dedication. I know that you and your family are holding onto a miracle. I say miracle because I do believe it will take one now. These are just a couple of routes you could consider.

If you do wish to continue meds, you could reach out to @Veloran.

Take care. 🙏


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

If he's been in fresh, clean water outside his tank where the possible contaminants are minimal, then the only other thing I can think of is the Kanaplex / Furan 2 combo. It's rough on them.
There's a good chance there's some internal issue but it would be hard to tell at this time.
I usually don't like the colored gravel, I'm always suspect about them that they're leeching something into the tank.

Wish I had more options for you.


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