# Emaciated betta



## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Oh, man. I just realized. :\
I posted a thread about my betta being unable to swim correctly. But I had a realization.
A while back, we had a run in with internal parasites. treated with API Gen Cure. He recovered but his weight didn't.

He went from plump, to looking like this:

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u83/wolflover91/unnamed_zps16d74156.jpg

Now I want to know right now: what do I need to feed him to get his weight back? He ate a few frozen mysis shrimp earlier. The day before that he ate 5 pellets in one sitting.

I'm worried, and I'm upset I didn't catch this sooner. I haven't slept for two nights in a row.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Actually he doesn't look too bad for a previously sick fish. He may not be able to eat as much as he used to before he got sick but just feed him daily, don't give him too long of a fast period; one day a week is fine. What pellet brand are you feeding?

I never really count pellets any more, what I do is feed my fish in one sitting for as much as they'll eat before their tummy expands in a few minutes and looks nice and round. Then I know that they've had enough to eat and if they are healthy, they will slim back down when the 24 hours goes by and I feed them again. Though it's not exactly every 24 hours I feed them but you get the point I hope? You'll start to notice though that they'll eventually become disinterested in the food you're offering when they're full enough. For growing fish, you may find they eat tons of food twice a day, for fish older than a year, you may find that they start to eat less and less as they age; it's both natural. Older betta's will slim down and look like they can't gain any weight, regardless of how much they eat, it's just how life works; it's the same in humans too.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

New Life Spectrum and Hikari Bio Gold. Honestly, he is having some trouble swimming, and the only logical explanation I have is that he's too skinny. Before it, he was rather plump, and when he had food he seemed to get more energy. I'm quite literally sick over it.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you fill out this form so I can see what you do for him:

Housing 
What size is your tank?
What temperature is your tank?
Does your tank have a filter?
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration?
Is your tank heated?
What tank mates does your betta fish live with?

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
How often do you feed your betta fish?

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change?
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change?
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change?

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed?
How has your betta fish's behavior changed?
When did you start noticing the symptoms?
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how?
Does your fish have any history of being ill?
How old is your fish (approximately)?


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Housing 
What size is your tank? 10g
What temperature is your tank? 82-84, raised from 78 due to whatever is going on
Does your tank have a filter? yes 
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Hikari/NLS/Bloodworms.
How often do you feed your betta fish? Daily

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Weekly, 25-40 percent
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 25-40 percent
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? seachem prime or ap stress coat

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH: 7.6
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? skinnier
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? lays on bottom of tank, tail tries to float upward. not terribly interested in food, sinks to bottom if he makes it to the top.
When did you start noticing the symptoms? two days ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? API Gen Cure and Epsom salt
Does your fish have any history of being ill? had internal parasites once before
How old is your fish (approximately)? obtained him in june of 2014


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Have you seen his poop lately? Is it white or natural brownish/orange color?


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

I haven't, but I didn't even before this. He is just a shy pooper. I fed him a pea earlier in a last ditch effort, but I don't think it did much. I don't know if being skinny could do all of that? Is it advisable to remove the medication and salt and see what happens, or is that even more of a death sentence?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

He may have more parasites if you haven't see any poop lately and he's still loosing weight. How long ago did you use the General Cure for the parasites?

You should technically see poop in the tank if he has pooped at all so if you're seeing none then likely he's not passing anything.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

It's still in there. Been doing API Gen with epsom 100% daily water changes. I want him to make it, but I just don't know if he's going to.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

He should be fine, he still looks healthy. What amount of Epsom Salt? 1 tsp per gallon? More, less?


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

a little bit less. it's a drained 10g, so it's about 7 gallons give or take. I put enough for 5, so he won't overdose. Today is the third day of the salts. So I should continue the salts and the Gen Cure? For how long?  Anything else you could recommend? Switching meds if this doesn't work? 

Honestly I have been blaming myself this whole time. My first betta was a betta with a big lump on his head (came that way, didn't have the heart to return him because he would be food or killed). He died after 6 months, after the lump got all white and he became lethargic and sitting at the bottom of the tank. In other words, almost exactly the same way minus the lump.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That's definitely not the same way, sounds like a tumor on the first guy, that's not transmittable as far as we all know.

But yes, continue full treatment of Gen Cure and keep trying to feed him as much as he'll eat. If he doesn't eat, take out uneaten foods so as not to spoil the tank water.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Should I continue the salts? I notice the water changes are kinda taking a lot out of him, so they're worrying me a little bit. Is there any method of salts that is less... water-change-intensive?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, continue with the ES. You shouldn't be needing to do any water changes unless the medication calls for it. What exactly are you doing day to day so I can see? What percentage of water and what day of G. Cure are you on?


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

5 tsp of epsom salt, .75 pack of general and a water change after 24 hours. He'll hit the 48 hour mark with general today, though, since I haven't changed any water. In reality I only did one water change while general was in the tank (sooner than it was called for, however).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, was there a reason you did the water change? Dirty water or something? You'll want to follow the directions best you can so that the meds can actually do their job and excrete the parasites if he has them. So try and follow it to a T from here on out and let them help you  If he's only been sick a few day's then yes, he's going to lose the weight, that's not your fault; parasites live everywhere including our water system so it's not like you could really do anything to actually prevent them; if they were going to attack then they were going to. Best we can do is just treat it in the end. But he's most likely not going to die.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Even though he is very lethargic and hanging on the bottom? He has trouble righting himself even. 

I took out all the gravel in case the parasites decided to call it home. I left fake plants (all silk) and decorations, though, so he's not terribly stressed. Also, I put a towel over the tank to be one hundred percent nothing outside could stress him.

I will not be adding any more epsom salt either and just leaving the 5 tsp until Gen Cure calls for a water change.

It is just terrible, this is day 3. The early part of day 1 he was totally fine and acting as his usual self, then I found him laying there. I do have another tank but I haven;t given him anything from that tank, so there wouldn't be any cross contamination.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So he was fine before you started to dose him with meds?

And lethargy usually doesn't call for a water change unless your water parameter's are out of whack, like tons of ammonia in there. Otherwise, it's just a stress factor.

Did you dissolve the ES before you put it in? Did you dump it all at once or add it little by little over half an hour or so?


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

No, symptoms are why I started dosing him to begin with; if there was nothing wrong, no need to dose xD. The lethargy and bottom surfing (aka sitting at the bottom of the tank and strange swim bladder esque symptoms as I described) resulted in using Gen Cure. Little by little.

By Day 1, I mean the day this started. I checked up on him around 4 AM because I was up, nd then by the afternoon that day he was on the floor in a corner.

Either way the current course of action is to see if he wants food, don't add more epsom unless a water change is done, and do a water change when GenCure calls for it, and go from there when GenCure is finished. All good?

Also, since I did that water change he didn't get much General Cure, so I'm assuming I should treat it as if it's a new treatment.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So he only had lethargy, some sitting at the bottom and that's it? Did you test your water at all? How long as the tank been set up and do you know about the Nitrogen Cycle? Sorry for all the questions but it's necessary for me to get the big picture >.<


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

It's fine don't worry! You're trying to help haha. 

the day of at 4 am, I fed him a bloodworm. Later that day, I found him sitting at the bottom of the tank. He wasn't interested in moving around. that is all he has now - sitting at the bottom, and some strange swim bladder symptoms. His tail actually goes upwards and if he goes to the middle of the tank, he starts sinking. I've seen him willingly swim down to the bottom the last few times though. 

I do know abaout the nitrogen cycle. There was the betta with the tumor in this tank before him, and the tank is probably nearing about a year old. Still though he really isn't screaming anything wrong. He just has a floaty tail and sitting at the bottom. I have noticed flashing before, but api gen cure would take care of that anyway I presume. I suspect it's a swim bladder infection of some kind.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, sorry for the lateness; had classes to attend. It sounds like possible infection then to the swim bladder, nothing points to internal parasites at all. Any sickness can cause them to lose weight so it's not disease-specific. For internal infections I actually prefer to use KanaPlex and if they will, medicate the food and feed it for a better digestion of the medication but it can just simply go in the water as well and usually works fine. Unfortunately it has to be ordered online since little to none local stores actually carry it unless you're real lucky.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Already ordered it. It is coming tomorrow. When should I take out the API Gen Cure? Should I try or do anything in the mean time? Will waiting hurt him?

I have TC Tetracycline, and EM Erythomycin in the stock right now. I bought them just in case.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Question to anyone who may know: can you use Erythomycin or Tetracycline for Bacterial swim bladder? or should I wait for kanaplex?


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

If you have the kanaplex coming tomorrow - I'd wait for that. If I remember right, some other antibiotics aren't effective in higher water pH levels.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

He seems to be moving around a little more, and he had a slight S shaped spine. That is gone. 

I am hoping this is all signs of improvement. I am only worried because I am in the winter storm zone and it might be delayed but it also might not be because it's not going to be as bad for where I am. Some sources are saying it'll taper off before 2 PM, so crossing fingers.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

+1 Tetracycline isn't effective in high pH levels. 

And technically you should finish the round of General Cure however if you didn't already dose the full dose by now, you can just stop it since you didn't do a full dose in the first place. With antibiotics, make sure you always try to be as exact as possible since a lesser dose is ineffective and can cause bacterial resistance if used too much and then if you overdose, you could potentially harm your fish too, usually that's not the case of course but just try to be as close as you can with meds, it's the same basically in humans too. And always go the full round, never stop a round short because that also leads to bacterial resistance.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Well, Kanaplex should be here firs thing tomorrow. Winter storm got the better of the company. 

What are the odds he will recover from this? Also, When I get kanaplex, how do I dose it?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

He should be fine, it's really a minor infection. And there are directions on the bottle when you get it


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

lilnaugrim, I just want to thank you so much, I will be dosing ASAP and as soon as I get it. I am removing the meds with carbon first, and then doing a water change to change things slowly. 

Thanks for dealing with this frantic betta owner. This fish is my baby!!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Always glad to lend a hand where I can  Now KanaPlex is no miracle drug just keep in mind. Being that I'm not with your boy and I don't have a bacteria swab or anything, I cannot guarantee his total recovery but hence I ask all the questions to get as close to a diagnosis as I can. I'm sure he'll be fine though.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

One more question. Should I put in the epsom again with kana after the change?

And yeah, still very very worried.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

After seeing a thread VERY similar to how he is acting on here... Kanaplex doesn't treat external parasites does it? Is there anything I could use in conjunction with the kana for external, or would the API Gen have taken care of that?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No kanaplex does not, its antibacterial. Its treating the swim bladder infection since I'm 99 percent sure that its all your boy ask. Internal bacterial infections can lead to not pooping, decrease in weight and lethargy too. Internal parasites do not make your fish sink or float like swim bladder issues do.

You can continue Epsom salt with kanaplex but since he's already emaciated, I don't want to risk him becoming dehydrated. Internal parasites will usually make his tummy swell too if there really is a colony in him. And there is nothing externally wrong with him as far as I know.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

I am not sure what to do. Kanaplex is on the way.. he showed signs of improvement llast night. He was actually swimming around the bottom looking for food when he saw me and darted to the top for air. 


I'll probably take it out, it's been in there 3-5 days now.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Ok... He had a water change with EXACT temperatures and kanaplex is in. It is 6-7 gallons so I put one whole dose and like 1/6th of the doser to deal with that appropriately. 


Send me good mojo!! I need it!


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

One more question just to be sure. I took half of the water or a little over half of the water out (that had epsom salt in it). I now dosed him with Kana as I said earlier. I didn't take all of the water out. 

So the epsom will be diluted, whatever is left, and it probably isn't very much since it's 6-7 gallons and I only gave enough epsom for 5. It is safe, right?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

For a while it will be but eventually you'll want to do a 100% to get all of it out.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Kana is 2 days per treatment with maximum of 3 doses. When should I do it? Should I do it after the 3 treatments if he doesn't improve?

That's six days today included.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

After just one full round, you don't need to do the full 3 rounds if he responds to this. Ideally you want to give some rest between rounds so he doesn't get overwhelmed and end up with an even more lowered immune system.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Thanks. 
good news!! I went to go look on him. He ate the pellet I dropped in (soaking one tomorrow) and he is not on the bottom.. probably resting on a leaf.

So nervous but getting hopeful.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Just checked on him. back on the bottom with a floaty tail.

if it doesn't work by tomorrow, do a 100 percent change and re dose? 

Its not even in there 24 hours yet... Maybe it needs more time.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

So he seemed fine between doses? If so, just do a 100% today and just let him be for a few days


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Well a full treatment is basically two days. So I should wait till tomorrow yes?


And he seemed the same really, maybe a little better with the kana


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, if he can wait it out, better to finish the treatment. When you do the 100% just make sure you acclimate him to the new water at least an hour, in his weakened state, he needs it so it won't shock his system with completely new water. Do you know about the drip acclimation? If you don't, google it and you can see videos on how to do it, its easy and much less stressful on your betta


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

yes, I do. 

I'm getting doubtful he'll recover, and I really hate thinking like that. The only thjng that comforts me is that he's not in pain or anything.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

I notice with the kana and over the last few days he has sunk less rapidly and moved more often. Hope the trend continues. 

Today I'm going to try to feed him mysis shrimp since they're packed with good stuff for him.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Little update - checked the nitrites/nitrates/ammonia, all are fine. Just in case of anything happening there. He ate 2 mysis shrimp (frozen), and 3-4 pellets all throughout the day. Best of all he ate it off the bottom of the tank and had enough energy to get them. He also wiggled a bit upon seeing me.

He's been moving around a little more, up and down off of leaves, but swimming around on the bottom if he is swimming. His floaty tail is perhaps a little bit better, but I won't say either way. 

It might just work.. hoping to get him stronger for the 100% water change tomorrow.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Cool! And yeah, they naturally will float a little bit when they rest so it's normal to see some floaty-ness from the backend where their swim bladder is. Hoping the best for him though!


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

I think maybe with two more rounds of Kana after a water change and a wait of 4 days (that is how long you await yes?) we might have something good going.

I will update you as time goes on as always.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Normally you want a week between medication rounds, KanaPlex is strong but still gentle on the system versus other medications so you can wait less time but I'd still wait at least a week unless he shows signs of not getting better, then you can do it after 4 days. If he perks up after getting out of the KanaPlex water then there is no need to do another round just for the sake of it; overuse of antibiotics and also lead to bacterial resistance unfortunately >.<


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

alright thanks.

I think it will be a long road but I think he is doing it. Crossing fingers.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Do you think he is on his way to recovery? My family members are driving me insane over this and my anxiety is through the roof whenever they do. Is there anything else I could be doing? temp is 84-86 , he has a towel over his tank, attempting to feed whenever I'm around, lowered water, obvious medication, water change later today when it hits 48 hr mark

I liked it better when nobody else cared about my fish.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I honestly think he'll be fine. Can you possibly get a video of how he looks/moves? I can judge easier that way how he's doing.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Sure give me a bit and I'll post it.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Alright. Have the vids.

(I apologize if I'm driving you equally as insane. I understand helping people is not the easiest job. You definitely regret answering this one xD >.>)


link 1
link 2
link 3
link 4

Took a few diff ones to give you the best idea. note: I am doing the water change now.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I think...personally, if he's eating and pooping, until he recovers I would only feed him the mysis shrimp and skip the pellets. Even the best pellet isn't as good as frozen or live food - they are harder to digest. He definitely looks like he has swim bladder issues, so feed sparingly. Maybe 2 shrimp in the morning and 2 at night for the next couple of weeks (and yes I know they are tiny). You _REALLY _don't want to fill his stomach if he has swim bladder issues, and if he has issues due to malnutrition very slowly increasing his food intake is safer than giving him as much as he will take. Kanaplex is good stuff, if it's a bacterial issue than that should knock it out.

The water is higher than I'd leave it. If you have a fully submersible heater, I'd put it sideways close to the bottom and lower the water more.

I would not give up hope on this one. He has a chance.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

He's definitely better than he was. He wouldn't even get up to eat, I had to shove it into his mouth. He has been on off with the mysis (wants it, then doesn't), and is lazy as all hell in the morning. He got skinny after a run in with internal parasites (long and stringy white poo). He came with it, and recovered, but never got the chance to get the weight back. This is not how I planned on learning about bettas XD (my first was one with a tumor... REALLY depressing.. I mean.. it still bothers me. He lived the rest of his life in a 10g, at least ).

It's higher because of the filter. Could an Air Stone suffice instead of a filter?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

+1 to hrutan


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Could an Air Stone suffice instead of a filter? Or shall I go off and buy a different filter? 

(seriously, I'll shell out any amount of cash to save this fish or any other fish I own).


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can use a Sponge Filter instead and lower the water level so he can swim to the top easier if he needs to breathe regular air as they have to do occasionally.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Awesome. Do those also need cycling? I do have another tank. 

Im getting one, as in _right now_, so I will be get it, do the change, and take all of your suggestions. He is doing it, but slowly. He is moving around a bit more.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

did the 100% change with drop and the other type of acclimation once the water was mixed. I'll post a photo of the setup

not going to lie i'm terrified. 

So sleep isn't going to be a thing tonight.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u83/wolflover91/IMG_14551_zps0786fb5f.jpg

lower water, sponge filter (that does mean water changes to rid of medicine yes? no carbon) with the biological filter of the Aquaclear to be safe (we don't need a mini/full cycle), plants everywhere. he was really starting to move around before the change. part of me was like, oh god, I'm going to stress him the second he improves, and the other part of me was like, oh god, I should do it right now since he's improved.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Still floaty tail.. he is moving around on the bottom still but I am not sure he will recover.. I guess I could dose Kana again in a few days?

He seemed to improve the first kana dose, maybe that will help. Sigh not sure

Edit: he has been moving enough that if I look again I can't find him. So I guess that is a good sign. Found him on a leaf st the top this morning.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah if he seems to have improved, it should help if you want to do another round. He may never recover from the swim bladder troubles but that doesn't mean it's fatal, he could live the normal 2 years expectancy or even over, I can never say for sure though since each fish is different of course. But considering your boy is a fancy type then he won't live the hardy VT of 4-5 years. Fancy types usually die earlier unfortunately, it's just genetics; nothing you did.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Figured. I noticed him aging quickly (lost a lot of color in a very short time), he must have crap genetics. I wish I was a VT person, but I just never got into them - I was always into plakats.

I'll dose again, see if he recovers, and hopefully he will, and will continue the fight for him. Assuming I'm right about the above, it's gonna be a while before I get another whenever that happens because I'm gutted.. I knew it'd be shorter, but I didn't think it'd be this short (SBD can happen with age I've read).

It hasn't been anything I've done. I know it sounds easy to say that, but I've kept fish for 10+ yrs, grew up with a 40g and helped with that one before that. have frozen food up the wazoo, always had the best pellets, same temp, WC every week, SeaChem Prime or API Stress Coat.. read, read, read... yeah. This has been a bit of a frenzy simply because I almost never use medications. Always found a way to get them better.

He had internal parasites upon arrival, treated them. I just don't know what I could've done differently... if anything.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I know, the worst always happens to the best no matter what. The best we can do is just keep trucking on, best we can. I always hope the best though.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

with the water level this low, how often water changes am I looking at?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Only small water changes, 10-25% twice or just once a week. Once it's cycled then you'll only need a small amount weekly or every other week. You don't want to do large water changes since it will only stress him out.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Alright thanks. He came out to greet me yesterday. Tail still floats but he swims more. 
dosing kanaplex again not tomorrow but the day after


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Tomorrow is the day I dose with kana but kinda wondering if I I can today because I noticed white edges of his fins.
Which only means he has fin rot.. as he was just improving with the sbd.

sick to my stomach, don't know why he has fin rot.


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## Greenapp1es (Dec 4, 2014)

White is usually regrowth - could you post a picture?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Actually white edges means regrowth on his fins. That's good


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Oh god in heaven you're kidding!! thank god! something good. He has been good and moving around more. Today he is a little more off but yesterday I was losing him minute to minute.

There is hope for him. come on little man pull through!

Edit: upon further inspection it is clear. the lighting made it look as if it was white as in fungus-like.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Well. I dosed with Kana last night. Don't think he is going to make it. Really doesn't swim much, found him on his side on the bottom a few times, seems stressed and unhappy. I will see tomorrow night during a wc because of the kana.. But I don't think things are looking good.

That said my next one needs to be built like a sherman tank.... Feel so awful.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Aww, I'm sorry to hear. He must really just have weak genetics, it's a shame that it happens. It happens in humans and all other animals too unfortunately.


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## peacefulchaos (Mar 31, 2014)

Thanks lilnaugrim. Sick over it. Guessing I should euthanize him. He doesn't move for hours and I don't know if he would even be able to eat as he doesn't move. Really didn't want it to come to this. 

do you mind if I pm you a quick question? (not about euthanasia don't worry)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

You can always PM me for anything. Sorry about not getting sooner, I was out all day yesterday on a road trip!


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