# breeding question



## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

i just bred my pair and it happened overnight.
Last night, the bubble nest was full and intact, but when i checked it when i woke up.. most of it has vanished! so now the eggs are on the floor, under the styro cup i put for the bubble nest. Is this an inability of the male? should I remove the male since he's not picking them up anyway? thank you for your replies!


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## herefishy (Dec 14, 2006)

Eggs were probably infertile. Go ahead and vaccuum the tank and get rid of the bad eggs.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

are there any other opinions/suggestions?(no offense herefishy) 
just now i checked them and i believe the male has spit them back up the surface, but still there are very few bubbles.. i hope this helps


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hi
well if he has put them back into the nest,then leave him too it
and see what happens,you may have a happy ending after all.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

i really hope so!  
this is my first spawn and i hope it goes well.
thanks guys!


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## Blaxicanlatino (Jan 28, 2008)

is the bubbles popping a natural thing?

I read that the amount of eggs varies from 25-100+. the male knows what needs to be done.

let him be

when do you remove the male?


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

i've read that some males don't even have a clue how to do it or maybe they just don't care. what do you think?


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

The female isn't in there anymore is she? Do you have another betta? Maybe if you do you could scoop up their bubble nest in a bowl and gently add it to the bubblenest he already has. I have heard of people doing this on another forum i'm a member of.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

tried it but stil wouldn't work 
thanks for the tip though!


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

If you do it gently enough it should. Don't just dump it in. Lower the bowl into the water and then gently tip it.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

sorry, what i meant was i did do it gently. it did last for a while but i guess he doesn't like it(?) after a day the bubbles i put were gone


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

I'm sorry your having this problem. How many days has it been since the eggs were layed?


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

almost nearing day 2, they will be hatching around this time right?


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

*HOORAY!*

Spotted free swimming cute babies tonight and i'm OVERJOYED! 
Time to feed right? I've had a culture of MW going and just want to know how much and how often to feed them. Pictures would help A LOT  thanks!


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## southafrica1001 (Nov 18, 2007)

congrats  good luck as well


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

thank you very much


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Congratulations Tenpaull :welldone: 

Any chance you could keep us posted with their progress?

Have you thought of names for all of them yet? 
( just kidding about that part)


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

Haha! That would only be possible if i name them Fish1, Fish2,.. )
However, it is a fairly small brood and I am looking at least 50 fries only.
It could be a good thing so as a first timer I can look after them more intensely

UPDATES!:
Day 4: 
From a few little swimmers last night, they are a LOT of them to be seen swimming now. ( A heartwarming sight for me ) 
Makes me feel all my effort payed off.
Started feeding them Microworms however, i think they still prefer the infusoria and the small bits of food stuck in the filter.
I always see them hanging around the area whrein the filter and the plants are.
Wondering how much to feed(MW) can anyone help? pictures will be great.
Right now i scoop up the sides of my culture with a wooden stick and i drop the MW in the water directly.
That's all for now !


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

*dead mommy*

I have very sad news 
The female who gave birth to my current spawn just passed away. (
Yesterday i saw her with white stuff on her side, much like fungus but very aggressive since it looks like as if it has eaten her tissues already. and on that area of the body, "pine cone-ing" of the scales was also observed. I do not think it is Dropsy because the pine cone-ing was localized to the infected area. what could be the cause? is it just fungus? I medicated her with meth blue, and salt as soon as i diagnosed her. Please note that this happened overnight. The disease spread rather quickly. 

Before i put her into the "hospital" container. I put her in a container where she was supposed to recover from the 'mating ritual' during the spawn. However, after 2-3 days she developed the so called fungus. I did water changes every other day(partial) to keep her water clean so she can recover from the fin damage.

What could be the disease? This has caused me 2 fatalities already, almost 3 but I think i was able to save the other one, (with the same medication).
Help me please guys! It looks awful and I don't want it to happen again!


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## Blaxicanlatino (Jan 28, 2008)

could it be something involved during the reproducing?


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

only a few nipped fins happened during the mating ritual, nothing that TLC and time can't fix. But this other thing happened really fast, overnight actually. Still have no idea what it is.


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi Tenpaull

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your mother Betta.

Also sorry that I don't feel I have enough experience to help you with the problem you are describing. I do have a suggestion though. If you are not receiving a response to these new questions regarding the problem. Try posting it as a new topic. Include of course all the usual info about the tanks , size, water parameters, temp. etc. Hope this helps some.

Thank you for the update on the little ones, it is exciting to hear about there progress.


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## Blaxicanlatino (Jan 28, 2008)

all i can say is... it happens. some things happen for unknown reasons.

sorry...


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

Day 9!

Went out of town for the weekend, had my househelp feed my fry
Noticed more than usual wrigglers in the water, siphoned them out.
removed some of theIndian Almond Leaves in the water, i feel like they are starting to degrade the water quality..
Siphoned out some stuff I believe to be infusoria, but not all.
Turned the sponge filter up a bit, i don't know why. haha!

As usual, the growth rate is very irregular. I heard males grow faster than females. If this is true, it's a good sign for me since there are more bigger fry than small ones 
Had a hard time with hatching BBS but managed to salvage some.Anybody know the right salinity level for hatching BBS? thank you!

That's all for now!  I don't know if there are still people reading this thread though. haha! )

P.S. I want to put a snail in the fry tank, would this be beneficial or detrimental to my fry?  thanks!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

hay there
glad that the fry are doing well. 
don't know about the snails though,
maybe someone will pop in with an idea,or you could PM bettababy
she's fab with Bettas.


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi Tenpaull,

This is a web site I was on in the last couple of days, might be helpful ref. the brine shrimp hatching, www.sfbb.com.

The updates are fun, thanks for sharing.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

Fry Update;
Was able to feed them BBS already and it looks great.
I rinse it with freshwater before feeding it though.
I refrigerate the leftovers, I read it slows down their metabolism so they will consume their yolk sacs slower. Making them viable for a nutritious consumption for a longer time 
No significant amount of change in growth/size.
However, I have noticed the significant amount of irregularities in the growth of the different fry.
I am very excited to see them bigger haha!
My mom has a not so good vision and I can't wait to show the fries to her when it can be easily seen. 
*FAST FORWARD 1 month!*


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

seems like nobody's reading this thread anymore. i should stop posting 
Thanks for all the help guys!


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## SST (Nov 17, 2007)

Don't stop. I was away from the forum for a bit. 

How're things going?


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Hope you don't stop, really enjoy the updates.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

Oh. I'm glad to hear that 

I'm on Day 14 now but it's morning so not much updates. Updating on Day 13

Day 13:
Fry are looking GREAT! 
Very easy to see now that they've grown quite considerably
Added unrinsed BBS to the fry tank. What I had in mind is for the SW from the BBS to be benificial in keeping other diseases in check.
Since I added SW, I also added little freshwater to dilute it a bit. Was scared to fry my fry 
Refrigeration of BBS seemed not to work 
BBS were still pretty orange in color but not moving, they would be similar to decapsulated brine shrimp eggs now because of lack of movement. I want my fry to enjoy and practice hunting for live food 
Also added a cup of Indian Almond Leaf water(Refrigerated for long use) because I felt I already diminished the water in the fry tank greatly when i do my twice a day "poop patrol".
[ I was particularly obsessive compulsive in removing the infusorians left in the tank lately ]

Hope this will help/inspire all the budding breeders out there!
Gurus please suggest/comment if you can, will appreciate it much! 


Note:
I log everything that I do for my fish, for future references. haha!
I think it's a good idea for everybody to do the same as well.
Maybe I could post it someday


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

I have enjoyed reading this! I am planning on breeding very soon. Next week i'm having a pair of halfmoon plakats shipped to me.


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi again Tenpaull,

Where do you get infusoria, I have not seen them in the pet shops with the 
fish foods? 

I too have thought about breeding in the future, I am not sure though and am definitely not ready yet. My local mom pop fish store has told me they will purchase all the youngsters, they prefer to purchase from breeders. But right now I'm just still thinking and learning.

One of the reasons I enjoy your updates. Keep them coming if its no problem for you. Thanks!


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

infosoria is a collection of different microscopic organisms usually found in water with decaying matter. They can include paramecia, rotifers.. and the list goes on.
bottom line is they are good food for the fry because of their size, availability and they are natural one of the few "free" things we can use w/in our hobby 

There are many ways in culturing infusoria, but basically you let aged water with decaying organic matter(lettuce for example) sit in the sun for a few days and wait for it to be cloudy and voila! fry food  
[letting it sit in the sun will hasten the culturing process]
Some people however discourage its use because it can also bring "bad" water into the fry tank.

In my case, a week or more before the spawning session, I fill my spawning tank with treated water, and add a few leaves of Indian Almond leaf into the tank, along with an airstone to keep the water moving. This is good because the IAL gets to "bleed" the substances I want for my water, like tannins for example, which bettas love.  At the same time, I can culture infusoria in the spawning tank itself, with the IAL being the "rotting media". After a few days, you will see 'dirt' on the ground or attached to the leaves, these are "probably" infusorians thriving in your water. They are cloudy in appearance and sometimes clump together.

Note my use of the word "probably", I have read that what you may think of as infusoria may also be a bacterial bloom, making us go back to what i've said in the danger of using this as food. In my case, it's just an added benefit of the way I treat my water. I don't go out of my way just to make infusoria to feed the fry  In my experience, they are a lot of help because if sometimes, I am not able to feed on time, my babies can snack on the infusoria while i'm away 

This is a timely question since I was delayed by about 4 hrs on my feeding schedule due to work )

Updates updates!... for later  haha

Ask more questions, maybe we can help other people when they read this


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow lindsey88, I bet they are gorgeous!

for my first breeding I tried a VTmale and CTfemale.
male is pinkish in color with blue washes on his fins.
CTfemale is darkblue with red washes on her fins.
Kinda curious already as to what the fry will look like )
I've read that the VT gene is dominant, so I'm expecting majority of VTs on my spawn 

this served to be my 'experiment' or my trial into the breeding world.
no offense meant to my 2 beloved fishes and their being a regular VT and CT. I love them both and especially the way they look. It just so happens that they were the first bettas I have acquired 

good luck to you and your breeding!
maybe you can ship me some after you're done, eh?  just kidding!

Regards!


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks Tenpaull,

I printed that out for quick ref.( hope that printing it was OK, if not let me know.)

Does the water that you attempt to produce the infusoria in need to be at any special temp?. Is there a to low end or to high temp. range that is not good?

Are these infusoria any thing that adult fish ever eat? Or are they to small for adults to bother with?

Would snails or shrimp ever be interested in eating them?

Any thoughts about whether or not other water parameters, ammonia, PH, etc. has any bearing on their development?

Do you know if these can be harvested and frozen for feeding these like other frozen fish foods?

Do you know if infusoria breed,or are they strictly cultured for?

Do you think a microscope would assist in determining if infusoria or bacteria were being produced? So one could know if in doubt, what they were getting before placing in a fry tank.

Hope I didn't ask to many question, my mind just kind of runs away with questions some times


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

It's perfectly fine as long as it helps someone 

I don't really know the specifics of culturing infusoria.
I live in the tropics maybe that's why it's easy for me.
However, I have reason to believe that they would prefer warmer temperatures to proliferate. 
Maybe you can look it up and tell us what you've found out.
Bettas are naturally surface feeders, I am sure however if adult bettas will be particularly interested in eating them. [Heck, some even don't bother to eat anything other than FBW in my case]
I would think that a microscope will definitely help, although I don't know exactly their physical differences 

Sorry if I wasn't much help! Maybe some gurus will wander along and help you with your queries 

best of luck!


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks Tenpaull,

I think I will try to look up the info. to my questions. Guru,s coming by would be even better, they probably know more than I could research.


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## fishygal852 (Feb 14, 2008)

Congratulations! I read on this site that you are supposed to feed babies twice a day I'm not sure what though. Sorry! :?


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

yes you should feed them at least twice a day. with WHAT, there are a wide variety of food to choose from.
Some include microworms(my favorite), Baby brine shrimp(BBS), infusoria, Egg yolk and the list goes on 

choosing what will depend on what's best for YOU and your BETTA


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## Lindsey88 (Nov 23, 2007)

I read that females usually pass on their traits to the offspring more than males so maybe you will get some ct babies. I ordered some microworms off of ebay! I'm hoping to breed my fishies as soon as it arrives. My male is in his new 10 gallon tank right now and loving it. My male and female were donated to me by someone on another forum. I just had to pay for the shipping!


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## okiemavis (Nov 10, 2007)

Have you got any pics of the babies? I'd love to see them!


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

sorry i have not poped in to see the progress,
if you would like to continue with the updates i would be interested.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

February 24, Monday

Day 23 of the fry, they are looking SPECTACULAR! right on schedule on their growth 
pectoral fins can be seen clearly and they look very cute when hunting for their food 
can't observe the other fins because i use a styro tank.
Growth is still not uniform. thinking if i will transfer the bigger fry to another tank so that the others can catch up before they die 
competition for food plays a factor in growth

Was away for the weekend, asked our househelp to feed MW to the fry.
unfortunately, he did not understand the instructions clearly.
*
When feeding microworms, you should scrape the ones crawling up the sides of the culture container only. By doing this, one can prevent contamination of the rotting culture media when feeding the fry. *

when i came back from my trip last night, I saw the water horribly cloudy and I immediately tried to clean it up. I siphoned the bottom of the tank with a nasal aspirator connected to an airline tubing with enough care not to suck up a few fries. Today monday, I siphoned it again as i can still see dead microworms clouding up the tank floor  I topped-up the water everytime I siphon to keep the water level the same. With enough hard work I believe that the water is staring to clear up  *whew* I really thought I needed to transfer them to another tank, as I already started cycling another tank as I came home last night. talk about paranoid  But it's always better to be safe than sorry. Maybe I will start my 2nd spawn since the 2nd tank is already up and running . I'm am eyeing my PK pair and they seem to be ready and eager to spawn 

That's all for this post 
Comments will inspire me to write regularly haha! 

side note:
Started using a special mixture for my other bettas which were supposed to condition them properly for breeding. My 1st trial was great and the male immediately starting working on his bubble nest. Will wait for more trials to see if it really works.


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## Stillwater (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi Tenpaull,

Still watching for and enjoying the updates. 

I have never seen a betta fry next to an accurate scale of reference. So was wondering, just how big(small) is a new born betta fry?
I am familiar with Fancy Guppy fry. How much smaller is an average new born (hatched?) betta fry compared to a new born guppy fry?


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## willow (Sep 9, 2006)

i:m glad that although the tank was dirty,you didn't lose
the lot,that would have been awful.
keep up the good work,i look forward to seeing pictures
when you can.


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## tenpaull (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey guys! 

I can't seem to take a good picture with my set-up as of now. I am using a styro tub and a top-view picture will not do them justice. As soon as I get my hands on my growout tank[20gal] I will post pictures of my lovely fry


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