# VT Never Forget



## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Iv found out that people are saying that the VTs are not worth breeding. I have to say it makes me a litle sad. I hear that in the US the IBC dosent even have a place for them (have not confermd that just what iv heard).
I understand that the VTs are at every pet store and everyone has them but I mean come on, They are such a big part of The Betta story its a shame to see them cast out. 99% of the pet store VTs are not that grate any way. over seas the VT still has a place in show and is still seen as a important part of things. they my be easyer to breed then the HMs but it still takes time, skill and lots of hard work to breed VTs with perfect coloor and fins.

Sorry dindnt mean to make this a rant, I just hate to see such a big part of history get for gotten. so pls the next time you find your self at a Betta show remeamber to pay respect to all the fin typs after all we would never of gotten the HM or CT if not for the VT, just as the VT would not be here with out the P.


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## freemike (Feb 3, 2012)

I can't believe that they don't have a place for them. They may be the most common, but IMO they are a staple breed of this species.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Aw  What's wrong with VT?!?!? I mean, yes, they are in every store on every shelf. They're the last to get chosen over CT (the only 2 kinds available here). Such a sin. I love VT's. I agree, they are an important part of history. I love the long flowing tail, and prefer it to double tails and heavier finnage which weigh the fish down. IMHO those are the breeds which should be monitered since some fish die unable to swim.


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## lvandert (Feb 23, 2012)

I love my VT's and tried spawning them for my first go. It didn't succeed but regardless, their still beautiful fish that people enjoy.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

They are a thing of the past so to speak. Also the US shows have no standard for them so it would hard to judge them.

I love VTs but unless I can find some nice stock available I wont breed them. 

IMO nothing is cooler than a planted tank with a bright red VT swimming around.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Alot of mine were VT's from walmart. I like the longer finned ones like HM and VT better then HMPK and CT. However trying to find a non red, non VT female to spawn with is kinda hard. I loves my llittle red girl but I don't want red offspring.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I am working on a VT standard with another breeder. She already has a male picked out to spawn. I couldn't find any when I went to look. 

Basically we want to create a pure line of VTs and then see if they spark any interest.

Although there is no official show class for them they can be shown in the Pet and Variations class.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

"However trying to find a non red, non VT female to spawn with is kinda hard" 

Thats a sad fact but only shows why more good breeders need to take a look at the VTs, to try and rebuild the genetics of this once great breed. 

"They are a thing of the past so to speak. Also the US shows have no standard for them so it would hard to judge them." 

If they have a standard over seas then it would not be to hard to put the same standard here in the states. we still have a place for the PK and they are almost as common as the VT breeders just took a stand and worked on keeping there PK better then pet store fish farms.

I love all betta typs and i would hate to see any breed be forgoten.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

I know here, all the VT's are mostly blues and reds. Pure reds go first, the last to ever be sold are blues with the black heads. You get your random shipment of multi's and even more rarer are butterfly's but I think people are just more interested in more unique coloring. My mom has a purple/lavender dalmatian VT. o.o 
If breeders could stop breeding so many blues and reds I think more interest would spark for VT. It's sad to say, heck- my Lakitu was blue/black!! He was awesome! And big, I really like the VT's who get shipped in from Singapore at one LPs. Ludendorff is also quite big.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

My Draco who i had when i was in my teens was all green, sadly i was not ablue to get him a mate but breeding more true colors is the way to go i agree with you on that Laki. if more breeders put out VTs in green, red, orange, and other more intens colors things could turn around for the VT. Me and my Mate are getting back into breeding and i think im going to start a Green line of VTs ill keep you posted when i get it up and going. I was going to do black HM but I feel a deep need to work with a VT line now.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

The way I understand it is that VT bettas (which in my head I KNOW means veil-tail but I always think Vermont) are regarded like mutts. Everyone loves them, everyone has one, but nobody recognizes them as a breed.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Thats True Sivan, but at one time the PK were seen as mutts in parts of the world and look at them now. The reason the PK made it passed the bad rap was becouse breeders took the time and work to breed PKs that where a cut abouve the pet farms mutts.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

So it looks like I'm dedicating some time to VTs... I have a couple extra tubs lying around so it'll be no problem. Plus with summer coming I'll just throw them in my kiddy pools out doors. I'll start with fins first then work on adding color with the fish from my new pairs.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Sivan said:


> The way I understand it is that VT bettas (which in my head I KNOW means veil-tail but I always think Vermont) are regarded like mutts. Everyone loves them, everyone has one, but nobody recognizes them as a breed.


You see Vermont. I see Virginia Tech. 

I don't mean to pick on the OP, but being a Virginia Tech alumni I see the title in bad taste. I originally clicked it thinking it was about the upcoming anniversary. I was there on April 16th when the shootings happened. I was visiting the campus in preparation for my coming freshman year. I don't know if you were trying to reference the event or rally support like that which was shown at Virginia Tech, but I still think it is in bad taste. The murder of 32 people is on a totally different level than the decline of a breed of betta. I'm sorry if I seem like I'm going off, but it's different when you're there. Walking by the building, walking by the memorial where parents are openly grieving, seeing the gunshot holes in the windows. 

To the subject at hand, while I do love halfmoons and HMPK's and dragonscales and deltas, veiltails carry a great nostalgia for me. My first betta was a blue veiltail from walmart. I had him with me at college. The first is always special. And I've always dreamed of owning a pure red veiltail. I think they look so gorgeous in a planted tank against a black background. MrVampire, if you can get some pure red ones I'd love to look into buying some!


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I really don't think OP was trying to be disrespectful. I'm kinda feeling like this may be something on your mind, so you may be seeing it in places when it's really not there? 

VT is my favorite tail type. I currently have 3 male CTs, 1 female HM, and 6 female/7 male VTs. Although it's the main type of Betta you can get here, with other types being rare, it doesn't effect my choice. I have taken VTs come instead of DT or HM  I wish there was a standard for them, or at least that they would be looked at as competitive option. Would love to see your VT spawns MrV!

My last and final wish for a Betta was a pure red VT, with those little white tips on the ventrals. I was able to finally get him about 2 weeks ago, since I saw one that was in need of help  When I started with Bettas, the last thing I wanted was a red VT. Boy, things change.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

MrVampire181 said:


> So it looks like I'm dedicating some time to VTs... I have a couple extra tubs lying around so it'll be no problem. Plus with summer coming I'll just throw them in my kiddy pools out doors. I'll start with fins first then work on adding color with the fish from my new pairs.


This is awesome! I will be very interested in getting one from you too. It would be great if more good breeders like you were open to improving VTs for the better, instead of writing them off.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Pitluvs said:


> I really don't think OP was trying to be disrespectful. I'm kinda feeling like this may be something on your mind, so you may be seeing it in places when it's really not there?


I undestand that is is on my mind, but google "VT never forget." The first thing that comes up is the Virginia Tech remembrance website. I can't remember how many times I saw "neVer forgeT" posted around campus and town. It's a pretty obvious reference which I find in poor taste. 

Anyway. That's my little rant. I don't mean to derail the thread.


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

thekoimaiden said:


> I undestand that is is on my mind, but google "VT never forget." The first thing that comes up is the Virginia Tech remembrance website. I can't remember how many times I saw "Never Forget" posted around campus and town. It's a pretty obvious reference which I find in poor taste.
> 
> Anyway. That's my little rant. I don't mean to derail the thread.


I think the use of the phrase is pure coincidence and wasn't really an "obvious reference". From what I gather, the "Never Forget" bit is a plea asking hobbyists to always remember where their beautiful bettas come from, as veiltails were an important part of breeding these other fin types. 

Really, this thread has nothing to do with Virginia Tech, and I find it strange that someone would assume the reference is even there. I'm sorry for the troubles you must have experienced due to this, and I am sure that we all wish to be sensitive toward the tragic, traumatic event, but this issue was virtually non-existant within this thread until you brought it up.

Anyway, I am really happy that some of you are working on VTs  One of my LFS gets locally-bred VTs regularly. There's been a yellow-finned dragonscale VT there for a while. I may go back there and pick him up if he's still there.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Agreed. VT will have its connotations anywhere. To me it is Veiltail's acronym. I understand the tragedy of the school shooting and I'm sure its exceptionally traumatic for anybody there but even people who live in Vermont see VT as veiltail around here 

It was not the OP's intention to offend anybody.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Also I know of one breeder who breeds VTs into her HM line. It only takes a few generations to get back to HM. She does it to introduce their strong genes (pond bred, survival of the fittest). So they are being bred in small amounts by breeders but nothing like HMs or DTs or HMPKs.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Funny how every one says common blue/reds are boring. Maybe to us they can be at times. I recently bought a peachy VT.. The pet store lady was quite pleased that I got him (and medicine) and said he's been there for maybe 2 weeks. I think bright reds and blues are more popular since they pop more. 

Mr V, I think it'd be super awesome to have veils with those vibrant marble colourings, and the koi colored ones. I love white bodies with bold patches.. Are you planning on crossing veils with HMs/plakats to get new colourings?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Yes I am  I have some gold marbles getting to free swimming. If I can find a nice pastel VT it would a nice cross.


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

Olympia said:


> Funny how every one says common blue/reds are boring. Maybe to us they can be at times. I recently bought a peachy VT.. The pet store lady was quite pleased that I got him (and medicine) and said he's been there for maybe 2 weeks. I think bright reds and blues are more popular since they pop more.
> 
> Mr V, I think it'd be super awesome to have veils with those vibrant marble colourings, and the koi colored ones. I love white bodies with bold patches.. Are you planning on crossing veils with HMs/plakats to get new colourings?


I want to start a project for marble veiltails, and metallic and dragonscale as well. Me and MrV would like to collaborate on this and see how interest goes


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Perfect!  that'd be awesome to start seeing some of those. They could finally start giving the HMs a run for their money.


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

Id buy fish if you guys could make a dragonscale mustard gas VT 

I'd buy every mustard gas in the world if I could. xD


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

inareverie85 said:


> Id buy fish if you guys could make a dragonscale mustard gas VT
> 
> I'd buy every mustard gas in the world if I could. xD


Lol. Me too. I have a female with light yellow fins and a black body and black edging to her fins. I want to include her on my project. I'm starting with my marble girl, though, breeding her to Shadrach (in my avatar).


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I've been wondering what fry you'd end up with if you bred a red veiltail with a blue veiltail. xD


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I've been wondering what fry you'd end up with if you bred a red veiltail with a blue veiltail. xD


Lots of mixed colors and multies.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Isn't red the most dominant colour gene? There'd probably be lots of red and red washes.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Aw  I love my multi. He's shimmery green with a flash but he's an obvious red/blue combo. Nice pink body, purple head and red-blue finnage <3<3<3


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

The science of it is too easy. Fins are difficult to breed back from VT (hence it takes generations to get it back) but color is easily manipulated. VTs often produce random coloring in spawns so they are fun to work with.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

thekoimaiden said:


> You see Vermont. I see Virginia Tech.
> 
> I don't mean to pick on the OP, but being a Virginia Tech alumni I see the title in bad taste. I originally clicked it thinking it was about the upcoming anniversary. I was there on April 16th when the shootings happened. I was visiting the campus in preparation for my coming freshman year. I don't know if you were trying to reference the event or rally support like that which was shown at Virginia Tech, but I still think it is in bad taste. The murder of 32 people is on a totally different level than the decline of a breed of betta. I'm sorry if I seem like I'm going off, but it's different when you're there. Walking by the building, walking by the memorial where parents are openly grieving, seeing the gunshot holes in the windows.


Im sorry that i could not respond to this sooner iv bin gone at work. im veary sorry that My use of the VT has upset you but the Virginia tech was the last thing on my mind, seening as how this is a Betta forum i didnt think about the other ways it could taken.

on to the topic at hand, im glad to see so many breeders taking a intrest in this topic of such a big part of are history.


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## mattoboy (Feb 4, 2012)

I have a lovely Orange Male VT that I just recently got last week. I am treating him for fin clamp right now. I am hoping to have him up to date before May 15th. After May 15th, I will be looking to get a nice female VT. I am hoping to find either a Black or Purple-ish or Metallic Blue Female. If all else fails, maybe a Opaque one. I will be breeding them in the summer time when its warmer. I am hoping in my turnout to be a few dalmations or marbles.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

I was really shocked to discover VT's are the 'pariahs' of the betta-breeding world in the US. I think it's a bit snobbish, really, to cast out a foundation type.. was it because VT's are so popular at pet stores? What was the reasoning behind their being removed from the show circuit...?

Anyway, I love VT's. I don't prefer CT's or HM's - they are nice to look at, but I don't find them anywhere near as attractive as a nice VT (and I think I am addicted to the red VT/planted tank combo, lol). 

I'd love a green male, I really would, or a true dark red without any blue.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Personally, I'm addicted to CTs and HMs, but VTs are my 3rd favourite.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Aus said:


> I was really shocked to discover VT's are the 'pariahs' of the betta-breeding world in the US. I think it's a bit snobbish, really, to cast out a foundation type.. was it because VT's are so popular at pet stores? What was the reasoning behind their being removed from the show circuit...?


The pet stores are a big part of the problum. the breeding community lost its grip on the VT typ when the HM crazz started. Most folks in the US have never seen truly great VTs and other then reds you never find solid color VT at stores and finding one with good fins can be a hard task. the over breeding from pet store farms like Petco/walmart has also left the VT line with rather weak blood.


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

Betta16 said:


> The pet stores are a big part of the problum. the breeding community lost its grip on the VT typ when the HM crazz started. Most folks in the US have never seen truly great VTs and other then reds you never find solid color VT at stores and finding one with good fins can be a hard task. the over breeding from pet store farms like Petco/walmart has also left the VT line with rather weak blood.


I stopped at Petco, and of the 10ish VT males they had, every single one was red.

Petsmart had more colors, but nothing remarkable, nothing like we see in HM and CT lines.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Was thinking and remembered, someone on here has a double veil tail. He is the most adorable thing, much cuter than the HM DbTs in my opinion. 
Would it be possible to get some?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Adding DT to lines is common practice to widen dorsals. 

If there were some good, pure, lines of VTs quite a few breeders would have gotten some. But they are so few and far between and most unheard of (I only know of one but IDK if that breeder is even in the hobby). 

It's more work to actually breed new colors into them and create a pure line than it is to buy some from another breeders stock.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

So do you have to cross VTs with well bred HMs to improve their lineage as well?


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

So my mom's VT betta is like a light purpley-reddish-blue body with gorgeous grey-purple tail with dalmatian spots. He came from PetSmart. WHO is responsible for breeding for PetSmart? I'd be interested in knowing about the mills supplying PetSmart, PetCo and other large chain stores.


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## styggian (Dec 13, 2011)

Laki said:


> So my mom's VT betta is like a light purpley-reddish-blue body with gorgeous grey-purple tail with dalmatian spots. He came from PetSmart. WHO is responsible for breeding for PetSmart? I'd be interested in knowing about the mills supplying PetSmart, PetCo and other large chain stores.


You'd be hard pressed to convince any of them to tell you.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Bc they must be like thaity....Obviously they're mixing random fish together to see what comes out and hope it sells. Example:
Bowser is a mix of combtail-crowntail
My mom's fish is such a strange rainbow
My sister bought a female with long male fins (but she has an egg sac and is in a sorority)

Oh my...


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

In order for me to produce nice VTs I'll have to spawn to a HMPK male/female and then an offspring back to a parent. Then pick the two best VTs and work from there.


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## ZergyMonster (Feb 20, 2012)

MrVampire181 said:


> In order for me to produce nice VTs I'll have to spawn to a HMPK male/female and then an offspring back to a parent. Then pick the two best VTs and work from there.


Like I said in a different thread, I would be truly interested in a well bred Veil Tail. I would also follow along in your spawns and donate a little if you need help making some.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

wouldn't inbreeding eventually produce mutants?

Has anyone ever seen a giant VT or a dragonscale VT?

I dont know where the walmart in fairbanks, alaska got their bettas from but they had an awsome selection of VT's and CT's - color wise. Nicer then many HMPK's on AB. Too bad they never took care of them


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't think colors like dragonscale were ever bred in VTs, just fancy PKs and HMs. But I think it's completely possible.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Chard56 is selling VTs on aquabid. They look pretty nice to me.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

> I don't think colors like dragonscale were ever bred in VTs, just fancy PKs and HMs. But I think it's completely possible.


Hmmm..come to think of it, I have never seen a dragonscare CT either, but I dont go looking for them - not a CT or dragon scale fan.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

Olympia said:


> Chard56 is selling VTs on aquabid. They look pretty nice to me.


He has some rather nice ones. I've thought about buying one, but alas... that old demon called space. 

I was actually about to remark just how few veiltails are being sold on AquaBid. I count 7 right now, and all but one are Chard's. How many halfmoons and plakats are on sale right now? I don't want to be the one to count.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I inbreed all the time. As long as you do an out cross every 6 generations or so its fine. Fish are different than mammals (which would produce deformities and mutations).


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Alright so I did find the bettas4all standard for VTs so anyone in on this project should be breeding for these kinds of veils in for and fins (they're the last standard mentioned). 

I'm currently discussing with some top IBC breeders about genetics and what it would take to clean veils up. 

http://www.bettaterritory.nl/BT-Bettas4allStandard.htm


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

That would be super cool, to get some really well-bred VTs with international standards back in the game.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

MrV ty for the link and for you hard work in this indever, Im glad to hear that quality breeders are showing suport for this.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

VT Dragonscale  Hard to see from the pictures, he was pretty sick. Sadly, Sheldon did not make it


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

My LFS has some dragonscale VTs.. At least I think they're VTs. They're certainly not HM, DB, DT, or CT.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Naw. He was so pretty, Pitluvs!


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

I had to work the floor to day at work and I sold 4 bettas to 4 difrent familys and im glad to say 3 of them got 5.5 gallon tanks and the last on got a 10gallon tank cus they wanted 3catfish too. but all the bettas were VTs and i have to say it pulled at my hart a little to see the perants as well as the kids light up and get so happy about picking there bettas. It realy remined me of my first betta and why its so important that we save this breed. 

For those of you that dont think its a big deal and that its ok cus petstore well always have them, i found some nummbers about betta sales and more big stores are looking to buy more CT, HM and DuBTs then ever befor the order of bettas that my store is getting next week dosnt have a single VT in it. So if the trend keeps up it seem another breed may in time become over mixed mutts and fall from grace just becuse they are to common. sorry for ranting I just hate to see this happen.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't pick the fish, I let it pick me. I went into the LPS the other day looking for a multi-coloured veil and came out with what looks like a young delta.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

MaisyDawgThirteen said:


> I don't pick the fish, I let it pick me. I went into the LPS the other day looking for a multi-coloured veil and came out with what looks like a young delta.


You got a betta, Maisy! I can't remember you having one 
When I'm looking for a betta, I always look at their faces and wait for a bond.'I'm crazy I know.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

Olympia said:


> You got a betta, Maisy! I can't remember you having one
> When I'm looking for a betta, I always look at their faces and wait for a bond.'I'm crazy I know.


 I got it on Friday! ;D I try to find one that responds to me; do you know what I mean?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

My VT looked so pathetic and seemed to be begging for me to take him.
I feel like VTs are the sweeties of the betta world.


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## Betta16 (Mar 13, 2012)

Olympia said:


> I feel like VTs are the sweeties of the betta world.


Its true they do seem to be the most layed back of the lot.


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## Laki (Aug 24, 2011)

Lakitu was certainly not laid back!! Neither is Ludey! I wonder of the two of them ever sleep (slept)! Maybe their motto is that they can sleep when they're dead! I see Ludendorff swimming around in the dark kitchen at night when I go in to find my pills (and leave the light not to disturb him)!!


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## indianabetta (May 3, 2012)

MrVampire181 said:


> I am working on a VT standard with another breeder. She already has a male picked out to spawn. I couldn't find any when I went to look.
> 
> Basically we want to create a pure line of VTs and then see if they spark any interest.
> 
> Although there is no official show class for them they can be shown in the Pet and Variations class.




MrV I would also love to help with this project, I grew up with only v tails, they are the only ones offered around here, I now spawn HM and HMPK and have never spawned Vtail, but for memory sake of my old pets, i would love to help make a wonderful line of Vtails!


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Three classes for plakats with barely discernible differences in standards, yet no class for VTs. <sigh>


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