# Anal fin questions



## JKB (Jan 13, 2016)

I'm new to the Betta world after being a fish keeper for over 30 years. I have always been into breeding my fish but not for show... Just as another level to the hobby. As my son and I are getting more serious about form and finnage we are wanting to start with good specimens. While we are very new and are reading and trying to educate ourselves we are finding one hard component to find. That is a male with proper anal fin length. I know the ideal matches the bottom of the caudal but most of what we are looking at... Crown tail and Half moon seem to be longer... In some cases much longer. So here is my question... Is it easy to. "breed it" shorter with a short fin female? Or... How big of an issue is a slightly longer anal. Thanks in advance for the help!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Hello there!

I would honestly find the female you can to breed him to, a regular long fin with as short of an anal fin as you can find; they are out there but it will just take some time to find it. Breeding to a short fin will give you loads of messy fins and likely you'll only end up shortening the caudal than you will the anal. You may get a couple that are the ideal form, if you do go that route then you can continue on with those fishes and breed to long fin again to keep the fins longer once more.

Have you seen AquaBid and/or ebay for fish purchases? There are some very desirable females on there time to time! Can be a little pricey to ship safely in the winter time but it can be very much worth it if you want to get serious in forms ^_^

Oh and one last note, the majority of the fry get their form from their females; fins specifically so that's why you want the best female you can find!


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

I'm not a breeder but I see a slight misconception there. The rule is that the anal has to -overlap- the caudal. The length is judged by comparing it to the ventrals. The tip of the vents and the longest point of the anal must stop at the same point. Does that make sense? Like, when you draw a line that connects the longest point of anal and the tip of the vents, the line gotta be straight. I can't help with your other question though so just consider this a bump

Edit: lol Lil went all ninja again. There's the expert answer for ya ^^^


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Seren27 said:


> I'm not a breeder but I see a slight misconception there. The rule is that the anal has to -overlap- the caudal. The length is judged by comparing it to the ventrals. The tip of the vents and the longest point of the anal must stop at the same point. Does that make sense? Like, when you draw a line that connects the longest point of anal and the tip of the vents, the line gotta be straight. I can't help with your other question though so just consider this a bump


Actually, the anal fin has to be the same length as the caudal as well if we're talking about long fin here. It's different for Asymmetrical and Traditional PK's (Symmetrical is short finned HM so it follows the standard for HM but just...short lol).

Like this drawing here! This is close to the "ideal" HM betta form









And just for reference, throwing this out there too in case anyone needs it. These are the ideal forms for all three PK forms in order: Trad, Asymmetrical, and Symmetrical


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## Olivia27 (Nov 26, 2015)

I see! Thanks for the info x


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## JKB (Jan 13, 2016)

So does the female form ideal follow the male form ideal? Should I be looking for the same length anal/caudal in females like in the males?


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## JKB (Jan 13, 2016)

Also...how come the vast majority of males on AB have longer anal fins? Are breeders keeping the best stock for themselves and selling off the lower level "pretty" fish on AB? As stated before, we are new to bettas, so how hard is it to find something REALLY nice?


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## haley3k1 (Dec 20, 2015)

Honestly, I would try to find a good male over a good female. In my experience, well rounded males are hard to find, but well rounded females are even harder to find. So it would be easiest to get a good male and an ok female not the other way around. It's ok if the male isn't perfect, but try to find one that isn't extremely long finned. You can breed it out through the best looking babies. I have a theory that the breeders tend to keep the best bettas for themselves and sell the ones they don't want to breed. Also, I think some breeders on aquabid don't breed for show, so they don't care about finnage. It's not difficult to find something REALLY nice, you just need a lot of patience and money. If you check the websites often and regularly, your bound to eventually find a great looking fish but for a cost. And yes female and male form are the same. Females need to have balanced fins just like the male which is even harder to find. I've rarely seen a female on aquabid who's anal fin isn't too long or too curved.


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## JKB (Jan 13, 2016)

Are there other websites besides AB that are worth checking out for nice fish?


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## haley3k1 (Dec 20, 2015)

Ebay actually has a lot of nice fish, but they are very similar to aquabid's fish. Do you have any fish stores near you? Specialty fish shops might have contacts with local betta breeders. Facebook is also a great resource. There are many groups that are dedicated to bettas and many people sell on them. Forums like this one can also be a good way to get breeder contacts. Other than that, I don't know of any other places. There are other websites like aquabid, but it's hard to find betta specific sellers on them.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

You will unlikely find a perfect male and especially female. Many breeders won't even sell over stock and would rather cull instead. The ones for sale are usually second rate or worse.

As stated above, a close to perfect male is easier to find. Sometimes the fault lies in his color while the form is almost perfect. However you will never find such a female unless you personally know the breeder. 

I suggest you look for a D shaped caudal (not rounded edges), half circle/oval dorsal, and fairly equal length anal. If she came from a good line she should produce a few well formed offspring. 

CTs are harder to maintain since they tend to have less rays. As long as you're patient, you will find a good enough pair to work with.

When you want to add new genes to your line, get a new male because they are easier to find. Keep in touch with several breeders as you don't want to use the same gene pool as your initial pair. 

I too wouldn't suggest crossing to PK. Too much work and partly a gamble - you won't know which female is long or short finned. It would be much cheaper to buy the "starter" than to create it - HM and CT

Good luck.


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