# Doubletail Female???



## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I just purchased this beauty on Aquabid. First let me say that the shipping and arrival was traumatic! You'll see that many scales are missing and I'm dosing with AQ salt. I've waited to post (her?) because she was so stressed out when she arrived. So what do you think? It was listed as a double tail female. I have yet to see a double tail, but I wasn't able to get the best pics of the tail either. With the long flowing fins it looks like a male, but I've seen some females with flowing fins. I've googled like crazy and have yet to figure it out. She/he needs a name but I'm waiting to make sure of the sex. Thanks!


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## Betta Slave (Dec 8, 2009)

Not a doubletail! DBTs have much longer dorsal fins, and despite the clamp I don't see any trace of a split in the caudal. 

Can you see a little white dot on the belly of the fish? Definitely a female, if so. If not, most likely a male.

Edit- I'm not trying to spam up your thread here, but if it helps, here's a pic of a DBT girl. See the long dorsal fin? You can see the eggspot on her belly too, if you look hard... the little white dot poking out.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thanks Bettaslave. I'm at such a loss about this fish! I didn't even see the tail before I purchased it and I could care less that it wasn't a double-tail. It's just a pretty fish and has a great personality. Now I just need to know what it is! Perhaps I should just name it "Pat" and leave it at that!


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## PitGurl (Feb 22, 2011)

I know what seller you got that betta from and I noticed many of the fish being sold were not what they said. That is a male Plakat. I'd give negative feedback and report the seller.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thank you Pitgurl! We were looking for a female because we have a couple of 10 gals that are divided. We wanted to have a male/female split, just because . . . Guess we'll have a tank with a couple of males! I will definately contact the seller and post feedback appropriately. I appreciate your response!


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## Shimizoki (Jul 8, 2011)

Threaten with bad feedback and maybe you will get a free fish out of it... Thats what I would do.
Either way its a really pretty fish.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 29, 2010)

The fish in question is a singletail doubletail genotype. It is always best to contact the seller first before posting any negative feedback. True halfmoon doubletails seem to always have a 180 degree caudal spread even when not flaring, IME.


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## TheBlueBettaFish (Jun 30, 2011)

Yea, that's definitely not a female. Sorry! :-(


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Dragonlady, I already contacted the seller and she's *really* nice. I won't be posting any negative feedback. I'm a seller on ebay so I'm very slow to attack folks when genuine mistakes can occur. I'm just a betta lover so I'm not too concerned that it's not a true double tail. A singletail doubletail is actually pretty cool! I looked everywhere on the web and the closest I could get was the Plakat. I even found a Plakat with the same markings! I searched for the doubletail genotype but all the females had shorter tail fins. The seller said she got him from Thailand so I'm sure the originiator stated it was a doubletail. I really cared more about the sex. I wanted a female and it appears to be a male. Good to know about the breed though. Of course I want to know exactly who's swimming around in my livingroom! Either way he's a new addition to our family!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hello everyone,

Wanted to give you all an update. I contacted the seller and received an immediate response. The sellers partner got involved since he's a breeder so he did some research. Evidently this fish orginated in Thailand. He stated it's a Class C, Halfmoon, Dumbo-ear Plakat. To confirm if it was a female, he instructed me to keep her in a seperate tank (vs. my divided 10 gal), turn up the heat to 80 and see if she'll egg up. I googled like a crazy person and also read to increase the protein in the diet for egging. So far nothing. I also googled the breed and the characteristics appear to be correct. Our local LFS happened to have a bunch of Halfmoon Plakats so I got to see one up close too. The males appear to be pretty big and mine isn't that big - more petite. However, I have no idea how old it is. I think it's a male, but I'm giving it my best shot to be sure.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Here's another photo that I just took. Sorry it's so dark. Not sure why that happened. The top of the tail is missing a chunk, which I assume was lost in the shipping ride. Also, I tried to get a better shot of the "dumbo ears", but she's/he's just too quick.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Oh! One more thing! (Sorry for the multiple posts) I can now see an obvious ovipositer, or should I say "white dot". Been told that males can appear to have an ovipositer as well. BTW, male or female, double tail or halfmoon, the seller was extremely responsive, immediate shipping, super friendly.


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## Betta Slave (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm going to say male. If he/she flares really easily, has a really big "beard" (operculum) and is quite aggressive, then I'd say pretty well definitely male.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Believe it or not, I have yet to see this fish actually flare. The photo I took was the typical swim . . . stop . . . swim . . . stop. I'm new to bettas, so when I hear the term flare, I think of when they see something threatening, all the fins are on high alert, and the beard comes out in full display. I haven't seen that yet. I even put my double-tail male up to the tank and it didn't even respond. However, my double-tail was doing the shake-dance-beard-I'm gonna hurt you, gig. That's why I'm confused. The finnage has me stumped and the behavior is pretty passive. Very friendly and loves company though. Beautiful boy/girl/fish!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

flowerslegacy, super cute! I know it's been a while, but have you seen "Pat" flare yet? Offhand I'd say it's a male and it's definitely not a doubletail. But who cares, it's soooo pretty! And yeah, some males do get the ovipositors. fightergirl2710 has a male that has an ovipositor. She wasn't sure for a long time what it was, hence his name Tranny.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Hi Sakura,
I have yet to see this fish flare - not once. I've tried everything. I even got a new male Crowntail and put their bowls together. Nothing. Although my Crowntail displayed like crazy!! The seller/breeder told me to turn up the heat to 80 to see if she'd egg. So far it looks like she is. I can see the ovipositer really obviously now, whereas in the beginning it was a struggle to see it. The seller also confirmed that it is a halfmoon/dumboear/plakat. They got it from Thailand as a double-tail. So far my daughter has named her "Helen" until we find out anything different. Beautiful fish though! Super friendly. Thanks!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Helen. Ah, I was wondering who the two new bettas were in your sig. Well, Helen is beautiful. :-D I love the names of your bettas.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thanks Sakura! I'll share the name creations: 1) Doubletail Male - Cassius Clay aka. Muhammad Ali - "He's so pretty. He floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee" (you should see him attack a worm!) 2) Crowntail Male - Winston Churchill - He looks like a royal british man. 3) Halfmoon Plakat Female - Helen Copperbottom - She's a copper betta so she was named after the mother from the cartoon movie "Robots". 4) Ruby Tuesday - She was cute and red so I created her full name from singing an old 70's song, which is I think is "Sunday Morning??" but I insert "Ruby Tuesday". We're silly around here but we have fun! Did I ever mention that my original little Ruby is a jumper?! I have to keep the water level low or she'll jump right out of the tank! Silly girl.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Aww, I love hearing the stories about how bettas get their names. So cool. I love that Winston is like dignified Brit. :-D I have a jumper too, she's managed to jump out twice during feeding. The first time, she almost landed in a bowl of catfood. :shock: Fortunately she can only jump at mealtimes so I don't worry about her leaping while I'm not around to put her back in.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

He/she is beautiful! It looks like a male to me because the anal fin is so long.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

I agree DQ. It's been hard for me to accept that it's a female. Any thing you suggest to find out if it's really a female? The seller said to keep her separated from other bettas, turn up the heat to 80, and see if it colors and eggs-up. The fish appears to be a little swollen and I can really see the ovipositer now, but I know the ovipositer isn't always an indicator. I'm not a breeder, so I have no idea if the fish is really swollen, or egging up or not. He/She is housed near a male, but I don't believe they can see each other. What do you suggest?


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## JKfish (Apr 8, 2010)

Here is a pretty sure fire way to determine the gender. Check the ventral fins (the two fins that dangle down with the ovidepositor between them.) Females have shorter (almost stubby looking) and thinner ventrals. Males have longer and fuller ones. 

If you can get Helen to flare, try and see how she flares. Females tend to flare face to face with whatever it is they are flaring at, and males turn sideways to look bigger.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have no idea. I'm not a breeder, either. Maybe OFL, Indjo or 1fish2fish can help. This is turning into quite a mystery.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Really the best way would be to get her to flare so you could check to see if "she" has a beard. Have you tried putting her right in front of Winston or Cassius? Or a mirror? Males may have ovipositors but I don't think females ever have beards. However, I do understand the difficulty in getting her to flare. I have a male VT who won't flare or doesn't know how or something.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thanks everybody! I'll give it another try, and another. So far I've used mirrors, other males, even females. The first time I cleaned the tank of my new big, beautiful Crowntail (Winston), I put him down up against "Helen's" tank. Winston just hung out his beard immediately and he DID turn sideways (I never realized the males do that - thanks JKFish!) Wow, he's just beautiful!! Helen? Nothing. A couple of glug, glugs and swam away. JKFish, the ventrals are pretty long but thin. I can't compare it to my other female because my VT is just a baby, but all the finnage leans towards male. I'll try again tomorrow and really take the time to get this fish to flare. Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate all your help! I'll keep you posted!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Good luck, flowerslegacy! I imagine you'd love to have this mystery laid to rest, haha.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

So I tried and tried and tried to make Helen flare. Nothing. She stared at herself in the mirror for a while, I thought she was going to flare straight not, but nothing. She finally got bored and swam away. I used the mirror in every angle around her little tank too. Nothing. So I looked at her ventral fins and I got to say that they are NOTHING compared to my two males. My double-tail and my crowntail have huge, long, full ventrals and Helen's appear stumpy, compared to those guys. If you look at the first photo I posted in this tread you can see them. They aren't hanging down, but you can see their length and how thin they are. Man I'm confused!!! Darn fish - just flare and help me out!


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## JKfish (Apr 8, 2010)

Hmmm, well here's an idea. Keep Helen completely away from his/her relfection and other males for a couple of days, and then expose him/her to either one of your guys or a mirror. I'm pretty sure that's what most breeders do to their fish before going to a show, that way they're pretty much guaranteed that their fish will flare very well.

I personally think she is a he, because female plakats have _extremely _short fins, and Helen's fins are about the length of a male plakats. However, female halfmoons could easily have that much finnage. 

If you could try and get a clear photo of Helen from the side, I could probably tell you by the body shape if she/he is a guy a or a girl...


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

And my other suggestion is try and get the closest clearest photo you can of Helen's gill covers and head. Even if she doesn't flare, you can usually see a male's "beard." If we see a beard on Helen, then she's a he. 

Silly, stubborn Helen, I think she/he is enjoying playing this game with you, flowerslegacy.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thanks JKfish! I'll get a good photo and post it tomorrow!


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Here's Helen. Please disregard the poo. I tried to get extra close pics of her gills, but they came out too dark and then my camera's battery died. I think this is a great shot though.


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## JKfish (Apr 8, 2010)

Okay, the ventrals point in the direction of female seeing as they are rather short and stubby. The fact she has an eggspot also points in the direction of female. The length of her anal, and caudal fin suggests that she is a Halfmoon female. 

That's just my take, let's see what others think.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

That's a great pic, photoshop the poo out and it's beautiful. 

Well, I don't see a beard or even a trace of a beard. And based on what I've seen on Aquabid and the internet, I think Helen is a female. Here's why:
1) Helen's ventrals. Here is a male dragon plakat from Aquabid:








See how long his ventrals are? Helen's ventrals are much shorter and stubbier.
2) Her size. If I remember correctly, you bought her on Aquabid, correct? Most bettas on Aquabid are sold at roughly the same age which is about 3-6 months old or prime age for breeding. If Helen was a male plakat, he would in theory be about the same size as other males offered on Aquabid because he would be about the same age. But Helen is smaller. It's true she could be a runt or something but I don't think so. She looks too healthy to be a runt.
3) The ovipositor. Yes, some males do get eggspots but the vast majority of them don't. And the males who do have ovipositors still act like males, they flare and bubblenest.
4) The lack of a beard. On all males you can see their beard, even when they aren't flaring. All you have to do is look at the chin and you will see edges of the beard sticking out. I'm not seeing this in Helen and that's a really good, close picture of her.

But these are all just educated guesses. Wild educated guesses. And yes, Helen has a long anal fin, but so does one of my girls and I know she's a female for sure. 

Basically, there's only one surefire way to tell and that's to get Helen to flare. There's only one other method to try and that would be to put Helen in with one of your male bettas. You would have to monitor them very closely and be ready to scoop one out right away if a fight breaks out. If Helen starts flaring when she's actually in with another male, and shows a beard (judging by her coloring, it should be red-orange), then she's a male and she should have said so a long time ago, haha. But it's also not the safest way to find out. Both bettas could end up with nipped fins before you can separate them. You probably would want to wait a few weeks and see if her behavior changes when she's totally settled in. I would say keep trying to get her to flare periodically for the next month or so. 

Anyhow, sorry for the extremely long post.  Either way, Helen is a gorgeous betta.


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## flowerslegacy (May 10, 2011)

Thank you for the quick response! I found a website, I think it was "Betta Warehouse"(??) and I scanned through the halfmoon plakats. I actually found a female that looks exactly like Helen. I was shocked. For all the searching I've done, it was the first one. So at this point I'm leaning towards female too. If she EVER flares, I'll post right away! Thanks again!


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