# pH and Ammonia levels???



## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

I've had my 2.5g minibow with filter for 18 days with 1 betta named "Finn".
I have plastic plants.
I change 50% water 2 times per week and gravel suction 1 time per week.

I feed Omega One pellets - 4 per day, fast on Sunday
I have API liquid test kit, and use PRIME.

readings have been:
0.5 ammonia
0.0 nitrite
0.0 nitrate
pH usually 7.4

tap water has pH of 7.2, todays tank reading was pH of 7.8(tested 2times)
changed water 50% today
ammonia is now 0.25
pH is 7.4 after water change

question: is this too much of a fluctuation in pH??
water temp is between 79/80 F

Thanks


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

It's a little odd, but there isn't really a whole bunch you can do about, save for using live plants, which I've noticed stabilised my pH.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It is odd it's gone up.. what do you have in the tank? What type of gravel, etc. Some types of gravel and some types of decor (like rocks and shells) will do this..

I am more concerned with your ammonia level and water change routine. .5ppm is far too high. Even as little as .25ppm requires an extra 50% water change. The twice a week changes you are doing just aren't enough.

Most people will tell you that you can't ever fully cycle a tank this small, despite your filter, and you will alawys need regular twice weekly changes of 50% and 100%.. you can try, but careful daily monitoring and reliable test kits should be used. You need to be testing daily with a reliable drops kit for ammonia and nitrite and doing an extra 50% change any time you see either. In addition to this a weekly 50% with siphon or new fresh turkey baster that has never seen chems is needed to remove poop and other debris from the gravel. It is not enough to just scoop water off the top ever. I actually suggest a turkey baster or very small siphon because your tank is so small an average siphon will remove water too quickly.

First you will see ammonia, then nitrite. Eventually, hopefully, you will see ammonia fall and stay at 0 even after a week of no water changes, and finally nitrite. At this point you will be left with only nitrates after a full week of no changes and these can be kept <20ppm by twice weekly 50% change with baster/siphon. However, cycling will take up to two months to complete and many if not most people will tell you that you can't cycle a tank of this size and you will always need twice weekly 50% and 100% water changes or you will always see ammonia continuing to build and the cycle will never finish..


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> It is odd it's gone up.. what do you have in the tank?
> i have just 5 plastic plants and aquarium gravel.
> 
> I am more concerned with your ammonia level and water change routine. .5ppm is far too high. Even as little as .25ppm requires an extra 50% water change. The twice a week changes you are doing just aren't enough.
> ...


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Have you tested your tap water? It is possible you have ammonia in it, in which case you should get hold of some Prime and use it to deytoxify your tank regularly.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Some gravel does effect ph. What kind did you get?

I agree you should test your tap but since you're not doing 50% change it just may not be enough.


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## sarahspins (Sep 5, 2012)

Dissolved CO2 in your tap water will lower your pH until the water has sat out for a while. .2 is not a huge change - I wouldn't personally worry about it.


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It's a .6 change between 7.2 and the 7.8.

yeah that's true.. some tap water is unstable. You can test that by filling up water jugs and let it sit for a day or so and retest. You may need to let it sit for a day.. mine had to sit 3 to stabilize so it depends.. but if you do that you will have to find a way to reheat it before adding to the tank. You can use buckets with a separate heater.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

Have you tested your tap water? It is possible you have ammonia in it, in which case you should get hold of some Prime and use it to deytoxify your tank regularly.

Yes, i already said i use PRIME and the tap water does NOT have ammonia.
Tap water pH is always 7.2, but in the tank it can be anywhere from 7.4 to 7.8


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

If your tap water doesn't have ammonia then you're just not doing enough water changes. If you follow my guide above your fish will be okay.

Sometimes when water sits for a while, like days, the ph will shift. Have you ever filled a bucket or jug of water up and then let it sit a day or even 3 and retested? This can change.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> Some gravel does effect ph. What kind did you get?
> 
> I agree you should test your tap but since you're not doing 50% change it just may not be enough.


i bought TOPFIN aquarium gravel (rinsed thouroughly before adding to tank)


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It's the gravel



> Note: Gravel may contain minerals that affect water pH. Monitor your water pH after adding gravel and adjust as necessary to avoid sudden pH changes.


Some gravel will say on the package that it does not effect water chemistry.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> It's the gravel
> 
> 
> 
> Some gravel will say on the package that it does not effect water chemistry.


So should i get rid of it and replace?? with what?


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Pool filter or inert sand is an alternative.  Marbles, tumbled river rocks or even a different brand of gravel.

Sorry re: the tap water thing, I'm on auto today.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Do a home science project. 

Bowl #1 - 1 cup of tap water. 
Bowl #2 - Some TopFin gravel and 1 cup of tap water.

Test the pH of both bowls initially. 
Test again after 24 hrs. 
And test again after 48 hrs.

This should tell you whether the gravel is affecting the pH.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Do a home science project.
> 
> Bowl #1 - 1 cup of tap water.
> Bowl #2 - Some TopFin gravel and 1 cup of tap water.
> ...


good idea...will try this tomorrow.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

Update:
both bowls have pH of 7.8 ?!?!?
very strange....maybe the inital reading of 7.2 was off
so, i guess i shouldn't worry since there is no fluctuation?


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

slug61 said:


> Update:
> both bowls have pH of 7.8 ?!?!?
> very strange....maybe the inital reading of 7.2 was off
> so, i guess i shouldn't worry since there is no fluctuation?


another update:
tested 1 last time and BOTH bowls had pH of 8.0
don't understand these readings.
decided not to change gravel


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You initially said your straight up tap water, not bowl water, had a ph pf 7.2

The gravel changes the ph of your water. The manufacturer even states that. With such a wide rise from tap to bowl temp, these fluctuations are stressing your betta, making him more likely to become sick. Over time as he ages, he will be less and less likely to tolerate them. Eventually, it will end his life early. .8ph fluctuations over and over again are not ok. You need to find a way to stabilize it


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> You initially said your straight up tap water, not bowl water, had a ph pf 7.2
> 
> The gravel changes the ph of your water. The manufacturer even states that. With such a wide rise from tap to bowl temp, these fluctuations are stressing your betta, making him more likely to become sick. Over time as he ages, he will be less and less likely to tolerate them. Eventually, it will end his life early. .8ph fluctuations over and over again are not ok. You need to find a way to stabilize it


please read previous posts...following little blue fishlet's advice


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I've read.. 

Your water right out of your tap water is 7.2. Your tank/bowl water is jumping around from 7.4-8.0. This is not okay, as outlined already. It does sound like your water needs to sit a full 24-48 hours to fully stabilize. That means you need to fill up jugs/bowls and let them sit, then find a way to heat them back up before you can use them.

But also.. that gravel changes ph.. letting it sit in a bowl for 24 hours is not going to tell you anything about how much.. means nothing.

So, like I said above, you need to stabilize the ph. If you don't want to replace the gravel, fine. I would still keep an eye on it because it still has a potential to cause problems. But you definietly need to make sure the water sits long enough to stabilize ph before using. Some people's tap water is like this.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> I've read..
> 
> Your water right out of your tap water is 7.2. Your tank/bowl water is jumping around from 7.4-8.0. This is not okay, as outlined already. It does sound like your water needs to sit a full 24-48 hours to fully stabilize. That means you need to fill up jugs/bowls and let them sit, then find a way to heat them back up before you can use them.
> 
> ...


No, you are not understanding....
it is not my tank/bowl. those are 2 separate things.
only 1 time i got pH of 7.2 from tap
for the last 3 days it has been 7.8 from the tap, and 7.8 in the small bowl that i put out (like other poster recommended). and 7.8 in my tank.
the gravel in small bowl with water was also same at 7.8 for 3 days
however, at the end of 3 days both small bowls (gravel and just water) had reading of 8.0
so, it looks like there is NO fluctuation at all, and therefore decided not to change gravel


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

That's not what you initially said.. but ok.. This is what you've given us so far.. You said your tap is "always" 7.2, and you would do 24 hour bowl tests.. two days later you posted back that the bowl tests were 7.8, and then a day after that you posted that they were now 8.0..

It's not abnormal for tap temp to be one thing, and water to rise once sitting out one day, two days or even 3 days. My personal tap water stabilizes after about 3 days. If your water straight out of the tap without sitting around at all is 7.8, then it should be okay then, but it seemed from your posting you were saying that the water you had sitting in the bowl for two and three days was at 7.8 then 8.0.. So if you were posting the results of LittleBlueFishlets's test that the ph was 7.8 and 8.0 after sitting around a while, then you do have a problem.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

OK, since you only had one occurrence of 7.2, let's disregard that. It sounds like something may have been 'off' with this one reading. As long as it doesn't occur again, it sounds like it was just some fluke.

So for three days, the pH in all containers was a very consistent 7.8. That is fine for Bettas. And since the tank value was identical to the bowls, this indicates there is some buffering going on, which is also good.

Then, on the third day, the two bowls both tested at 8.0. So even though the reading was slightly different from the previous days, the bowls still tested identical values. Did you also test the tank on the 3rd day? It would have been interesting to see if that tested at an 8.0 also.

What are you using to test pH? Is it a liquid kit, like the API Master Freshwater Kit? Or are you using test paper strips?

It sounds to me like the issue may be with the testing kit or method. How easily can you differentiate a pH of 7.8 from 8.0 on your test kit?


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> OK, since you only had one occurrence of 7.2, let's disregard that. It sounds like something may have been 'off' with this one reading. As long as it doesn't occur again, it sounds like it was just some fluke.
> 
> So for three days, the pH in all containers was a very consistent 7.8. That is fine for Bettas. And since the tank value was identical to the bowls, this indicates there is some buffering going on, which is also good.
> 
> ...


I use API liquid kit
tank water after a couple of days has stayed at 7.8 not risen to 8.0...only the 2 bowls did that


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

slug it doesn't matter about the bowls that sat. Like I said, 2 and 3 days isn't long enough to confirm or disprove a change from the gravel.. even the manufacturer states right on their product that it WILL cause an increase over time.. It's just not going to cause some dramatic shift overnight.. you've already decided you don't care.. 

Now, it only matters to compare the sitting out bowls to the water that was *just* out of the tap, because that's the water you use for a change.. If you take a water sample from the running tap and immediately test it and it's not 7.8 then you have to let the water sit. I don't know how else to say it.. since you won't trust me, I'll just leave you be.

LittleBlueFishlets, your advice is off.. sorry


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> slug it doesn't matter about the bowls that sat. Like I said, 2 and 3 days isn't long enough to confirm or disprove a change from the gravel.. even the manufacturer states right on their product that it WILL cause an increase over time.. It's just not going to cause some dramatic shift overnight.. you've already decided you don't care..
> 
> Now, it only matters to compare the sitting out bowls to the water that was *just* out of the tap, because that's the water you use for a change.. If you take a water sample from the running tap and immediately test it and it's not 7.8 then you have to let the water sit. I don't know how else to say it.. since you won't trust me, I'll just leave you be.
> 
> LittleBlueFishlets, your advice is off.. sorry


your response is probably why newbies don't come back here.
i don't think there is any need for the attitude.
i just asked a question and wanted an answer.....


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## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I have no attitude. I'm just sharing facts that will help your fish be healthy.. If you are interpreting attitude, then I'm sorry but you should look inward and try to decide why hearing these facts is offensive to you.. Whatever, I'm done here. I'm sorry but your response is why so many old members have given up trying to help new members.. arguing against help and then getting upset when you hear things you don't want to.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

callistra said:


> I have no attitude. I'm just sharing facts that will help your fish be healthy.. If you are interpreting attitude, then I'm sorry but you should look inward and try to decide why hearing these facts is offensive to you.. Whatever, I'm done here. I'm sorry but your response is why so many old members have given up trying to help new members.. arguing against help and then getting upset when you hear things you don't want to.


Why would you say i'm arguing against facts/help? I said i thought you misunderstood what i was trying to say. Facts are not offensive. Attitude is offensive. Using language like "whatever" is attitude.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened...with pH tests.
My fish is very healthy, active, has long flowing fins, no discoloration.
I have been following advice...and still looking for more.
If you choose to be "done" that's your prerogative. I'm sure there are many others who are willing to help.


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Hmm, keep testing every few days I suppose.. if it's going from 7.8 to 8.0 I really wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

Olympia said:


> Hmm, keep testing every few days I suppose.. if it's going from 7.8 to 8.0 I really wouldn't worry too much about it.


For the last week or so the tank pH has been either 7.8 or 8.
is this too much fluctuation?
I have been changing 50% water at least every 3 days, so it never goes above 8.0 and usually stays at 7.8.

i only had the 7.2 reading 1 time from the tap....the last few tests from tap have been either 7.8 or 8.0
I guess the 7.2 was a fluke?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes, I don't think it's bad.. remember there's always human error and every time you are grabbing water it may be slightly different amounts, you could be reading tests in different lighting, and so on.. so a 7.2 error makes sense. 
These tests are not super high quality (though they are all the hobbyist ever needs) so I wouldn't look at a .2 difference as a big deal. I would keep a container with the gravel and no water changes to see if it keeps climbing gradually.. Unless you already changed it out. I would like to see if it would keep climbing on it's own.
Have you always been using the high range pH test?


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## slug61 (Feb 26, 2013)

Olympia said:


> Yes, I don't think it's bad.. remember there's always human error and every time you are grabbing water it may be slightly different amounts, you could be reading tests in different lighting, and so on.. so a 7.2 error makes sense.
> These tests are not super high quality (though they are all the hobbyist ever needs) so I wouldn't look at a .2 difference as a big deal. I would keep a container with the gravel and no water changes to see if it keeps climbing gradually.. Unless you already changed it out. I would like to see if it would keep climbing on it's own.
> Have you always been using the high range pH test?


I started with regular range and got the highest 7.6 value, so moved on to the high range and got 7.8-8.0


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

I think that Callistra has a lot of knowledge, and gives great advice. However, I stand by my previous post in this thread. The water in slug's tank has remained at a pH of 7.8 - 8.0. From what I have read on this forum, bettas are able to adapt to this pH. I, personally, would just continue to monitor the pH to ensure it remains consistent, and doesn't fluctuate in either direction.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> From what I have read on this forum, bettas are able to adapt to this pH.


That's the common wisdom here. It's what we tell ourselves to make us feel better. But Betta, depending on where they're raised and how many generations, are most comfortable in a pH of <7.0. They don't really adapt to higher pH; they just put up with it---some better than others.

Slug, I'm sorry to say that your response to an experienced, valued member who was trying to help you, seemed a little abrupt and defensive to me. Might I respectfully suggest you re-read your postings and exercise all the manners and graciousness you can muster.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Hallyx - interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way, as I've seen so many posts saying that bettas can adjust to our local pH value, and that a stable pH is more important than the specific value.... 

So if someone's water has a higher pH and they want to lower it - but also maintain a consistent pH during water changes, etc - what's the best way to achieve this?


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## Olympia (Aug 25, 2011)

CO2 injection or using Reverse Osmosis water. ;-)


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

Over at TFK they emphasize matching the species to the parameters of the water that's most easily available---tapwater, in most cases.

Many fish are extremely sensitive to pH levels. It has to do with osmoregulation, a phenomena I'm not well-versed enough to adequately describe. Betta, fortunately, are pretty rugged, not particularly sensitive to absolute pH values, as long as the pH remains fairly consistent. I'm not sure whether this sensitivity varies from variety or among individuals. I'd really like to hear from anyone who knows.

My research indicates that a variation in pH +/- 0.4pH is acceptable. That is a 50% water change using 7.2pH tapwater into 8.0pH tankwater should be marginally acceptable.


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## Hallyx (Jun 11, 2011)

I have been reminded that, in a planted tank, pH varies by as much as 0.2 on a daily basis. 

During the day, plants consume CO2 and emit O2, thus raising the pH. At night CO2 emitted, lowering the pH.


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## LittleBlueFishlets (Nov 10, 2012)

Wouldn't RO water be devoid of the dissolved salts that fish need? If RO (or distilled) water is used, do electrolytes need to be added?

What pH is considered 'ideal' for Bettas? If we start with the ideal pH, then incorporate a variation of +/-0.4, this might give us a target range to strive for.


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## ryancalif (Mar 10, 2013)

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> What pH is considered 'ideal' for Bettas? If we start with the ideal pH, then incorporate a variation of +/-0.4, this might give us a target range to strive for.


6.8 to 7.4 is considered optimal for bettas.


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## VJM (Feb 7, 2013)

I have been fishless cycling, and really not paying attention to ph, since it did not seem to be an issue. However, I moved my tanks to the office (causing great distress to my plants) and now my pH is reading 8.2. 

That seems too high to plop a betta into, without trying to get a stable, lower pH. 

I have spring water readily available, but I hate to get into mixing. I am sure it won't be perfect, causing pH swings. 

Heavily planted tank, zero readings currently on all tests. Big ol' algae outbreak I will dealing with on Thursday (H2O2 and Excel). 

Any ideas to bring it down, or should I just ignore it for now? No immediate plans to add fish until the tank is more stable. Snails seem fine.


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## Bombalurina (Oct 10, 2011)

Peat moss in the filter is generally thought to be the safest, most reliable way to naturally lower the pH.


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## VJM (Feb 7, 2013)

Thank you! I have some around somewhere. I will give that a try.


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