# IBC standard.



## Witchipoo

I'm sort of just thinking out loud here, but I would like some opinions.
IBC only allows members to access the standards. 
I wonder why? Do they not want everyone that decides to breed bettas to have access to the standard?
I don't understand the reasoning behind this. It seems to me that allowing free access would be a good thing for the species. Breeding to a standard is how we maintain and improve a breed or species. Having a standard guideline gives consistency to breeders of any species.
Thoughts?


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## trilobite

The IBC isnt the only betta club in the world, theres actually quite a few different clubs, they all have slightly different standards, but are very, very similar. 

The bettas4all standard is online, so if you dont want to join a club you can get an idea of what to breed towards using the B4A standards. Theres more detailed info on the actual bettas4all forum, but theres pictures and diagrams all over the internet and its a good start since it can be seen by anyone.
http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10591#.Vo9T-fn5hhE

Theres also the IBA (international betta alliance) and ABA (asian betta alliance) clubs (and more but I cant remember them lol) but Im not sure whether their standards are online or not. 

Personally I think that the standards of all clubs should be free and easily accessible to anyone who wants to use them. But on the other side, clubs need paying members to keep going and what better way to grab new members than giving the most important info away only if you join


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## Witchipoo

Hmmm.
I'll have to check out the other clubs. Thanks for the link, btw, I'll check it out.
I just thought it kind of odd that an international club would limit access to their standard. Coming from breeding and showing dogs, this strikes me as rather profit driven. As opposed to love of the species/breed. 
I would be more inclined to join a club that makes it's info available, as it should be about the creature, it's care and overall health. 
Again, thanks for replying.


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## trilobite

Yeah the dog standards are free and very easy to find. But setting up a show is an expensive process and I imagine the dog world has a lot more money circulating around in it than a fish club would, so I guess they can afford to give away free info, whereas the fish clubs have a lot less interest = less members = less money= less shows, so they need to capture as many members as they can get

But yeah I agree with you that having the standards free to all would definitely promote a wider spread of quality breeding as opposed to just a few little circles who have the standards and is definitely something I would like to see in the future


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## Witchipoo

There is a lot of money in the dogs world, but clubs are non profit. Most of their operating costs are through fund raising events, silent auctions and raffles at shows etc. There really aren't a lot of costs really, trophies are usually donated, some revenue comes from entry fees, and most overage goes to rescue and education.
Different models I guess.
It would be interesting to set up a pedigree base for these guys. It sure would make figuring out genotype a lot easier.


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## Olivia27

Chiming in: I also found that the showing/breeding world in fish has a different feel than the showing/breeding world in dogs. With dogs, they're pets first, and then breeding stock. With fish, they're breeding stock first, and then pets. The problem is people are (mostly) only interested in animals that they either eat or keep around, so there's less interest going on for our show fishes. Less interest means less publication, and finally it leads to less funds. The AKC is popular enough to get advertising revenues. I imagine if a toy or food product is labeled AKC-approved people will go crazy. There's also the registration income - their biggest source of money (I believe). The general public doesn't know that a piece of AKC paper doesn't prove that the dog is well bred, and thus AKC-registered dogs sell for so so much more. But worry not! Since, again, they are always pets first, *anyone* - breeders or just pet owners- won't mind coughing up the extra $. With Bettas, I *know* I'm not paying $80 for a Thai-bred HMPK. Why would I need one of those around? I'm just looking for a pet for goodness sake! I know it means the fish is well-bred, but it's already embedded in my head that these kinda fishes are breeding stocks. 
Dogs have a different feel. They're always pets first. $2000 for a non show quality Alaskan Klee Kai puppy is very normal. As long as there's that piece of magic paper. The IBC can't get this revenue. So they gotta figure out something else. If the IBC starts doing registrations, I imagine the market pool for registered fishes would shrink significantly. The sellers can't sell them cheap because of the registration fee they've paid, but there's only so many buyers because the ones who don't care about breeding or showing won't touch them.


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## Witchipoo

That makes a lot of sense. 
It would still be nice to have a stud book to refer to.
But then, I've been breeding dogs for 40 some years, so a little set in my ways.
It might be a project for the future, to educate the public about the benefits of buying a carefully bred fish from a breeder rather than buying a fishmill pet.
The think that kills me is seeing all those poor bettas in chain stores. Going home with whoever has money, just like pet store puppies. 
It's heart rending.


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## Olivia27

I honestly believe it's difficult to see show Bettas as pets first. Breeding in this species is stressful, and often end up with either or both parents suffering from torn fins here and there. In order for our human conscience to allow this practice we must say "this is not a pet". Because nobody will intentionally hurt their pets. This is why I choose to not breed Volga even if he has potential. I would never consciously choose to put my pet in a situation where they will most likely get hurt. I don't care torn fins is an easy fix. It still means I'm letting a bad thing to happen to my boy =\


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## Witchipoo

I can understand that sentiment. 
Breeding any creature isn't for the faint of heart.
Breeding a dog has risks to the mother, it's a risk that some must be willing to take so that the only pure needs out there don't come from puppy mills and heartless breeders for profit. So, we weigh the risk with the benefits of giving pet buyers healthy, well bred pups to choose from. Like I said, it's not for everyone, but someone has to do it or the breed suffers in the long run.


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## SusieG

Unfortunately, not all dog breeders put the dogs as pets first  I have seen it first hand a few times. Money can make people see things differently. And even more unfortunately, yes, AKC papers do not mean a healthy pet. But, people buying from breeders should look into the bitches and studs background, prior to purchasing if looking for health. I'm more of a "go to the shelter and pick out a dog" kinda girl lol BUT I do have a Pomeranian from a breeder because I wanted a certain look. Tiny, under 6 lbs, little foxy face, show qual look to it. I looked at PetFinder and a few other adoption sites for months hoping to find one I liked, but didn't. So then I went to a breeder. Had to drive 4 hours away with my pitbull riding shotgun to get the little bugger lol

In the fishy world, am I am new to this  I do see people that seems to care for their breeders/ show fish with a little more love than others. I am on several betta forms and it seems like us ( the ones who take the time to go on these forums and photograph and show off our fishy) have more care for them then the people you see on AquaBid and eBay ( for the most part) . I am trying to be boarder line both. I do love all my fish and I am very careful who I breed and who I do not. Plus, I only have a handful of "breed-able" fish, so I don't want to be wrecking anyones lives as well. I do have an $88 fish lol He is my nicest male and hope to bred him in a few months, once he is a bit older. But will I check on them extra while in the spawning tank, will I call it quits if he gets nipped or looks stressed? 100% yes, because he is so pretty and such a nice boy, I wouldn't want to risk it. Other breeders would care, just to hope to get top notch fish. I will wait it out ya know.

I have a highly aggressive female part giant that I pretty much think I am done with. She has attacked three males on me and one I lost. I don't want her killing anyone else, just because she will hopefully throw some nice fry. My fishes health and happiness mean a lot to me. As a breeder/shower do all my fish live in big planted tanks with a filter and toys. No, but they are all 78-80 degrees, get bi weekly water changes, ammonia tested numberous times to make sure that is enough, eat a wide verity of yummy food and get to look out the window because the racking stand is next to it  
my husband told me " If these are pets, then keep them pets. Don't get upset if you lose one if your gaol is to breed and show, it's gunna happen. you can't get attached to them." I get his point, but thanks, I'll try and have my cake and eat it too babe lol!


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## Witchipoo

The female you mention would most likely pass on that "killer" trait, and should probably be removed from the gene pool anyway, as in dogs, if they aren't a relatively easy breeder/keeper they probably shouldn't be bred. Just as I wouldn't want to reproduce genetically unsound young, temperament is a genetic trait. 
If she's going to try to kill any male that gets near her, she's kind of removing herself from the gene pool anyway. 
I guess what I'm getting at is, it's a balancing act, is breeding.
I.agree, though, I want to have my fish and breed it too, sometimes.


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## SusieG

It's sucks with Jaws ( that female) because she is so pretty, but I was thinking that as well, do I really want more nasty females lol But I did get a spawning from her, but the male didn't tend the nest and I tried to artificially hatch, but I got them to late. But severally weeks later I tried to spawn her to a different male and thats the one I lost  I really liked him too. 
As far as "human breeding" goes lol I wish some people would not breed lmao


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## Olivia27

^ trust me Susie as a would-be elementary teacher, I sure wish we have an AKC or IBC for humans.


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## trilobite

Haha omg yes!!


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## Witchipoo

Seren27 said:


> ^ trust me Susie as a would-be elementary teacher, I sure wish we have an AKC or IBC for humans.


Haha! Or, as we say in the dog breeder world, stupid people shouldn't breed.
And you can take that both ways, cuz that's the way it's meant to be taken.


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## SusieG

Bahahhaa


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## hrutan

It's true, we really do have to look at the fish as breeding stock first and pets second. That does not mean that I don't love my fish, but I always tell people ... I do not recommend breeding pets! It is stressful for the fish, it is stressful for the owners, the fish sometimes die, and they rarely come out of the breeding tub looking like they did going in.

There are some people that keep pedigrees, but it seems to be an uncommon practice. I don't right now, because it has been so insanely difficult to get past my water problems that I gave up on spawn logs for a while. But the current projects are going to require them if I want to produce quality fish in the long run...

The wholesale fish that you see at a pet store are not necessarily mill-bred fish. The VT quite likely are, but the rest may well not be.

There are many Thai and Indo breeders that raise fish on a farm scale. The matches are carefully selected for the best quality possible. However, with 400-1000+ fry per spawn there will be many, many fish that aren't quite good enough to get sold individually. Deformities are culled, and the rest get sold wholesale. Those are the ones that end up on the pet market.

Part of the reason we can sometimes find really, really nice fish on the pet market is because the breeder will sell good fish on purpose wholesale occasionally, if there were too many similar fish. They do not want to flood the market and lower prices.


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## SusieG

Yes, you do find nice one sometimes, which is why I check weekly like a freak lmao! I currently have. Turq CT male that is great! Just his spread isn't 180, it's more like 170 but other then that, he's super nice and vents are blue so I said " Sold!" Lol


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## Witchipoo

I have only gotten one from a pet shop this go around, he is a beautiful fish. Not breeder quality, but lovely and engaging, none the less. I have also gotten one that was supposed to be breeder quality, from a breeder that turned out to be a rose tail, which is something I wouldn't chance breeding. Gorgeous fish though. 
Sometimes you end up getting quite a few before you end up with the right ones to breed. Especially if you refuse to compromise quality for quick results.


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## GhostFeather

Bettas are killers, given the chance, it is not just in the genes!
For example, I had a DT male that gave nothing but grief to 3 females.
I pulled Big Bertha, the biggest female I had and put her in with him.
2 Days later, I had eggs and he got a big piece of humble pie!!!
Just find a male that will put her in her place and if that does not work, then retire her.
You can't breed aggression out of Bettas.


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## Scribbler

Just a thought, but I know in the software world (I'm in the video game industry) when there is something the community wants as a whole, a lot of people work together to make an open source version so that the entire community and industry benefit. What if we were to all work together to make an Open Source Betta Standards Document? That way people worldwide could all work together to define what is desirable for shows and breeding to help strengthen the betta community as a whole. People could organize local grassroots shows then based on these standards and I think it would create a new appreciation for the fish and raise awareness. We could have more categories than what is in the current IBC standards.

(Disclaimer on this: I'm not a breeder. I have 1 betta from a pet store. I love him to death and he is my child. I would love to get into breeding some day though.)

What do you guys think? I'm the kind of tech nerd that could make this accessible worldwide so anyone can access them at any time, so if you guys are interested in collaborating, hit me up!


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## alecmerkel

Scribbler said:


> Just a thought, but I know in the software world (I'm in the video game industry) when there is something the community wants as a whole, a lot of people work together to make an open source version so that the entire community and industry benefit. What if we were to all work together to make an Open Source Betta Standards Document? That way people worldwide could all work together to define what is desirable for shows and breeding to help strengthen the betta community as a whole. People could organize local grassroots shows then based on these standards and I think it would create a new appreciation for the fish and raise awareness. We could have more categories than what is in the current IBC standards.
> 
> (Disclaimer on this: I'm not a breeder. I have 1 betta from a pet store. I love him to death and he is my child. I would love to get into breeding some day though.)
> 
> What do you guys think? I'm the kind of tech nerd that could make this accessible worldwide so anyone can access them at any time, so if you guys are interested in collaborating, hit me up!


This sounds like a great idea. Would take a lot of planning ect but I think it's worth it.


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## Scribbler

alecmerkel said:


> This sounds like a great idea. Would take a lot of planning ect but I think it's worth it.


It would take a TON of planning and input from people worldwide, but I really think that we could make this happen. I'm gonna create a thread about it quick that way there is one place for opinions about what would be involved in creating this.


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