# Pineconing started, is he doomed?



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

Hello all.

My little guy was subject to accidental melafix poisoning about 2 months ago. He was nearly dead, but I managed to cure him with BettaRevice but now I think the damage that had been done has finally caught up with him and I wanted some advice on what I should do (does he have a chance? Should I let nature take its course?)

A couple days ago I noticed some very minor pineconing and from what I've read this always means dropsy, which is almost always fatal. Since the illness I've changed his water about 4 times every week (he's in a 2.5 gallon). I also tested the water a few times. So I know the reason for his ailments are not due to poor water quality. He also has not eaten like a normal betta for the past two months, and I always take out uneaten food after a couple minutes. I've tried a lot of different things and I'm able to get him to eat about one pellet every week  He still swims around but since I've noticed the pineconing he moves a lot less. He doesn't have any noticeable swelling, but I also read they can be so skinny you can't notice, which would make sense since he's not eating anything. 

I have a theory that when he was exposed to the melafix it damaged some of his organs and they're just now starting to fail. Which to me sounds like he really doesn't have a chance... Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what is going on with him, or what I should do?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Melafix isn't toxic to bettas. It just can cause them to suffocate..so medicating post Melafix wasn't necessary. Actually, BettaRevive is a toxic combo of a lot of meds that can toast their kidneys if you're not careful however..

More info is definitely needed. http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=49233

In the meantime get epsom salt 100% pure magnesium sulfate. It must be the kind with no dyes, perfumes or additives of any kind. I get mine at CVS Pharmacy. Predissolve 1 tsp per gallon into a cup and add it slowly over an hour. After 12 hours you can double it.


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

I've heard a lot of things about different medicines. I tried the melafix and about a minute later my guy was acting completely different so in a hurry I went to an aquarium store and she recommended revive (it wasn't a petco or anything, it was a real aquarium store with really knowledgeable staff). The whole reason he was exposed to the melafix was because he had some fin rot, which became really bad after the melafix incident so the Revive wasn't necessarily to reverse his poisoning, but to solve the fin rot issue brought on by it. I didn't use full dosage of it either.

I know my pH, hardness and alkalinity are extremely high. If anyone has some low cost suggestions please share. However, he's been in it for over a year and hasn't had many health issues. 

Housing 
What size is your tank? 2.5
What temperature is your tank? 78
Does your tank have a filter? No
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? No
Is your tank heated? Yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? none

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish?
How often do you feed your betta fish?

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? Every day past few days, about every 2/3 days usually
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 50%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Dechlorinator

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters? 

Ammonia: N/A
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20
pH: 8.5 
Hardness: 1000
Alkalinity: 300

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? Raised scales, section under his chin where the gills are coming out seems to protrude a little, developing so fin rot not
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? Less active, attempts at eating are even less
When did you start noticing the symptoms? 4 days ago
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? Changing water everyday
Does your fish have any history of being ill? No, but has had fin rot many times the past couple of months
How old is your fish (approximately)? Almost 2 years


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

*Add on*

Sorry I forgot to ask. He also has some bad looking fin rot, will epsom salt help with this as well, or can I use both aquarium and epsom salt?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

In the future, fin rot treatment should be an actual antibiotic or natural with salts and tannins. Bettafix has one ok antibiotic but it's mostly stuff that treats external parasites and it's a carcinogenic harsh compound. 

Do you not have a test kit for ammonia? that's the most important thing in a tank of this size.. with no fitler. Actually I'm really confused because there should be no nitrates in an unfiltered tank at all.. All you really need is a reliable drops kit for ammonia at best, but since he has no filter you need to be doing 50% change mid week and 100% change by week's end. This is why he's got the bacterial issues.

In addition to the epsom salts I'd get a good internal antibiotic like Kanaplex. If you can't find this try Triple Sulfa. Last ditch try Maracyn and Maracyn 2 in combo. Each will have to be properly dilluted (not dry cut) for this size of tank so I can help with this once you have a med. I would do 100% change every other day while he's sick. Treat for 2 weeks with meds and epsoms.. good luck. poor guy


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

He was in a filtered tank up until a few days ago but the current proved to be way to much for him. And I know I'm working on getting some ammonia test. I'm not sure why theres nitrates though.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

It could be a faulty kit, user error or I guess you might be able to have it in your tap water.. though that would be some seriously nasty water..


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

I just found out I will be able to get kanaplax so if you could share how I should dilute this I would appreciate it. Also, I'm a college student and will be traveling at the end of next week, so the 2 weeks will be cut short by a couple of days will this be ok?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

You take 5 measures of tank/treated water.. 5 cups or 5 tablespoons.. it's actually quite easily soluble so 5 tablespoons would be fine. Then you take 2.5 tablespoons of the mixture into the 2.5g tank.

Basically for any med you dissolve in X parts compared to X of how many its' supposed to treat, then take Y parts of the mixture in the Y gallon tank.


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

I don't have the dosage for the kanaplex in front of me so I'm a little confused. If I take 5 tbsp of tank water, how much kanaplex do I put in? And then I take 2.5 tbsp of that mixture?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

One level scoop. Yes.


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

*How do I know when to euthanize*

Hey, I started treatment 3 days ago and nothing has changed. He was floating at the top of the water the whole time, I would put in some food but he wouldn't even pretend to be interested, like he had been before. He now hasn't eaten anything in over and week, and in the past 3 weeks he's only eaten 3 pellets. Today after I did his 100% water change rather than floating he began to sink. He just sunk and laid down right in the middle of the tank and it is really depressing to look at. He's been through a lot recently and I really don't see him making it out of this so I'm wondering your opinion on euthanizing. I know dropsy is almost always fatal. But it's also hard to feel like you're not giving him enough chance to heal. I'm going on vacation in a week and so if he has no chance at surviving, and will just be going through a prolonged death, I would like to end it before I leave so I can be there when it happens. I just need some reassurance this is the right thing to do.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

3 days isn't enough time to fix dropsy. You might not even see much change for up to a week and full recovery will take 2 weeks.

You're doing epsom salts and kanaplex right? KAnaplex needs to be dosed every 48 hours (every other day), unles you're doing a water change every day it needs to be redosed every day.


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

Yes thats what im doing. I know thats not long to show improvements. Just everything I've read about dropsy has been really discouraging and im not sure if my family will know how to continue the treatment while im on vacation. If you think I should wait it out I will Im just really worried hes going to pass while im gone and i won't be able to say goodbye. He's been extremely tough so far so I definitely want to give him a chance I just don't have high hopes. I wasnt expecting he'd be around much longer even before he had dropsy just because he refused to eat anything other than bloodworms. 

after how long would you expect to see improvements?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I would expect to see improvements by a week.

Just talk to your family and walk them through how to help him.. I've seen lots of dropsy cases turn around


----------



## Starfish1 (Dec 9, 2012)

Hi 

What could have happened is the fin rot, if it was bad, could turn into dropsy because the bacteria just moves from the fins to another part of the fish's body. this happened to one of my bettas a few months ago after our power was out for 4 days. Fin rot, that didn't respond to antibiotics and then about a week later, dropsy. 

Betta revive, in my experience, has not been the best thing for fin rot, but a lot of stores only carry betta revive so they recommend it for pretty much everything. I've never had success with it for fin rot but it worked for a mild case of ich years ago. Although I don't think it's designed for that..

Best luck with your fish


----------



## PupPetta (Jan 14, 2013)

He passed away some time last night  I think it's for the best, I didn't want to be responsible for making the decision to end it but I knew he was suffering so I'm glad nature took its course quickly. Thanks for your help though, I now have a good supply of kanaplex which seems to be a good medicine to have around for the next little guy I bring into my family.


----------

