# Twitching



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Help please, my betta boy is twitching.

So to make the long story short, I warmed his water from 74F to 79F with an adjustable heater over about 12 hours, and then transferred him to an 80F tank. He was fine for a few minutes and then started twitching sporadically. I thought it was the temperature shock going from 79F to 80F, then realized that maybe the climb from 74F to 80F over 12 hours was too steep. At any rate, I thought the worst thing I could do was change things on him again, so I just left him be. That was on Saturday night, so it's been 2.5 days and he is still twitching. It's sporadic and he is happy in the meantime, exploring and building a nest and eating. 

The twiches seem to happen spontaneously enough to surprise him, and they don't look on purpose. The small ones look like a hiccup or a sneeze, the bigger ones look like when he is jumping but they are not controlled and are all over the place. Scary. After that he pauses for a few moments, then just goes back to what he was doing.

Does anyone know what's wrong and what I should do? The form is below.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank? 1g
Does it have a filter? no - it's a natural planted tank (soil based), just over a week old
Does it have a heater? yes
What temperature is your tank? 80F
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? no
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? bladder snail

Food:
What food brand do you use? cobalt
Do you feed flakes or pellets? pellets
Freeze-dried? no
How often do you feed your Betta? 2xday How much? 2 pellets each time

*Maintenance:*
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? He was in a hosptial tank that was 74F and 100% water change daily
What percentage of water did you change? 100%
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? empty, wash, fill with new water
What additives do you use? prime and aquarium salt because I was treating him for cotton fungus

*Water Parameters:*
Ammonia: < 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.6
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms? 2.5 days ago
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? not changed
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? twitching sporadically
Is your Betta still eating? yes
Have you started treating your Betta? no
Does your Betta have any history of being ill? ich in December, cotton fungus just finished treatment
How long have you owned your Betta? 2 months 
Was he or she a rescue? no, but he came home with ich


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

21 views and no ideas? Please, anyone? Should I transfer him back out of the npt or leave him be? I changed about a cup of water this morning and again at noon, just in case there is something leaching from the soil. Good idea or not? Is there anything else I can do?


----------



## Rooster14250 (Feb 1, 2015)

Very strange. I hope he gets better soon!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

A little update. I just spent like half an hour in front of the tank and didn't see a single big episode. A couple of little tremors maybe, questionable. And incidentally the snail has come out of hiding. Joey was pecking him when he first got into the tank, so Houdini barricaded himself at water line and wouldn't budge for a couple of days. Well, he is exploring a plant now and Joey is leaving him alone.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks Rooster, me too.

I spoke too soon. I've seen a few episodes in Joey through the evening and the snail is now sitting at the bottom and hasn't moved in hours. Anybody?


----------



## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

All i can think of is maybe external parasites. Other than that i have no idea. And i know next to nothing about snails. 
I think i would try putting at least the betta in a different tank and see if the twitching stops. Is your soil store bought sterile? Could be something in it, fertlizer maybe, that is irritating him. 
I dunno, just throwing ideas out.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks Witchipoo!

I was thinking maybe parasites too, but what kind and how do I know for sure? He had just come back from 10 days of aq salt treatment, so I can't imagine it was something in his hospital water. The tank had not had a fish in it since it was set up. I got the plants about 3 weeks ago, the snail just over a week ago, and the whole time they've been fishless and at room temperature. 

The soil is miracle grow organic garden soil, which seems to work for people based on the OldFishLady sticky about npts. It was a brand new bag, it was frozen when I bought it. I thawed it indoors and opened it up, and it's been indoors since and it's about a month old as well.

I am thinking about taking him back out, but I am worried about changing things on him again. I have a tank ready and heated to 80F just in case he needs it. 

Do you think warming the water from 74F to 80F in one day was too fast and could have done that? I have since read that 2F max per 24 hours, but I haven't found any information of what happens if you don't follow that.


----------



## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

I dont know about the rapid temp change. When acclimating a new fish you float them till the temp levels out, that only takes 20 or 30 minutes and doesnt hurt them. I dont see why raising the tank temp would be any different. 
Thinking aloud here, could there be some sort of static zone or electrical current? 
Does he do it in random locations, or in certain spots? 
I'm afraid I 'm not very experienced with parasites on fish. But, I have bred groomed and showed dogs for a very long time and know from experience that external parasites make them itchy and twitchy. That's something that you might research. 
Sorry about being vague, but some food for thought anyway.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Random, I think.

He had ich before, but this doesn't look like the darting he was doing with ich.

Maybe I should get him out. I'll change another little bit of water, and if he is still twitching in the morning I'll start transitioning him out.

Thanks Witchipoo, I appreciate brainstorming!  I had a show boxer a long time ago.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Here's a thought. I know there is twitching associated with high levels of nitrates. My nitrates are 0, but could it be that the soil is releasing nitrogen in some other form that is not testable and that is causing the twitching? Mind you, other people have used this soil successfully, but maybe they've changed ingredients or something.


----------



## Witchipoo (Dec 13, 2015)

So did I! His name was Ike. He was a big dark brindle. I miss him still and its been 25 years. I want another boxer so bad I can't stand it, I just don't have room. 
Anyway, good luck. I hope you get it squared away.


----------



## Rooster14250 (Feb 1, 2015)

Could it maybe be some type of betta epilepsy? Maybe stress triggered when he got his new tank, and now that he's used to it the seizures are getting better?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Rooster, this is why I am scared to change things on him again. He is still twitching this morning though, and his tail is clamped. I am getting him out, just in case there is something in the soil.

So my running ideas are : stress, irritant leaching from soil, or parasites.

Re parasites - it shouldn't be ich, I know what ich looks like. He does have gold all over him when you shine a flashlight, but he is a red crowntail so I think it's just his natural coloring? How do I know if it's velvet or natural? Could velvet have survived without a host for a week at room temperature? Can velvet be in tap water? What other parasite could it be - is it possible that the snail was hosting something?

Witchipoo, this is why I am so attached to Joey. His personality is just the same as my boxer's (his name was Jason). You know how they greet you at the door and their tail wag is actually their entire body wag and they are so happy and social all the time? That's my Jason and Joey.


----------



## Rooster14250 (Feb 1, 2015)

I've never heard of velvet coming from tap water(although i could be wrong). The snail could have brought in a disease. I had once bought two mystery snails, and they both ended up dying a week later. After that, my betta had gotten sick. Also, did any of the pet store water go directly into your tank? I made the mistake of that, and within a day my previously healthy sorority tank was infested with ick. Do you have a picture of him to help with identification?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, I'll post a picture shortly. 

Um, I don't remember if I put store water into that tank. Probably a little bit, but even then it was a full week before I put Joey in. So ich or velvet should have died by then without a fish host, right?

So I transferred Joey out, it went pretty smoothly. He is still twitching a bit, also glass surfing. The one time I caught him twitch it really looked like violent sneezing - first he shook his head like something was tickling his gills, then his body twitched upwards several times. Weird. When I have time later I'll research other parasites. Could internal parasites cause this kind of behaviour?


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I'm glad you took him out again. Have you considered taking the npt apart again and starting it new with Fluorite or Eco Complete instead of the soil you have in there? It just makes me very suspicious of it since you had shrimp that died in that tank too. 

With parasites, depending on where/what they are you would see different behaviour. Internal you would see digestive problems, stringy white poop, bloating, maybe even swim bladder problem from the swelling. You might even see worms coming from his vent. Then there are parasites that might settle in the gills, and you would see him having trouble breathing, or worm hanging out of his gills. Parasites that settle on his skin, like ich, velvet, louse, anchor worms you would see him twitching and flashing/rubbing himself on things in the tank. 

Irritants in the water might also make him flash and twitch. 
I'm curious to see if he gets better now that he is not in the np tank!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Netti, thanks for the parasite info.

Yes, I'll do more research on the soil before I try putting him back in again. That soil is recommended, but maybe I am missing a step or they changed the soil recipe or something.

Pictures are coming up shortly. I have not watched him closely all day (gotta work sometime! LOL). The few times that I passed by to say hi he looked good. I'll see how he is doing over the evening and update you guys.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, here are some pictures. You can certainly see some gold on him, but I think it's just his coloring. What do you guys think? 

#3 - the white dot is not on him. I don't know what it is, maybe it's something on the glass.

#4 - I just had to share that little bubble nest. Not 2 hours in the qt tank and he is at it already! LOL

On the last photo, do you think his belly is irritated? I don't remember it being that red before, but I might be wrong. It looks odd, it's not the same shade as the rest of him.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Well, after watching him for most of the evening, he looks perfectly fine! So I guess it was something to do with the soil. Fingers crossed. I'll keep him in qt for now until I figure out what to do with him, poor homeless guy. Do you guys see anything that I should be concerned about?


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Poor little guy! I saw in your npt thread that you might have found the flaw in the soil set-up. Can't wait to see how it all turns out once the soil is ready!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks Netti. I really want to get the soil set up working for so many reasons. I'll keep at it!


----------



## DangerousAngel (Mar 26, 2015)

It's so strange, I've been having the same kind of twitching in some of my boys, but I'm wondering if there's something in my water causing them, mine are more like seizures though. 
I do hope the removal of the soil will help, how's he doing without it? Any episodes?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Angel, he seems fine! Joeys' were like seizures too, but of varying degrees. He was still twitching some when I got him into clean water, and then shortly they started looking more like sneezing, then went away altogether. I am still monitoring. What all do you have in your tank?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Everyone, here is the npt link if anyone is interested. http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=660306


----------



## DangerousAngel (Mar 26, 2015)

Just Nat Geo sand and live plants. I got Zanzibar like that.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hmm. Do you think that sand particles (or in my case soil particles) could get stuck in their gills and irritate them? Don't yell at me guys for experimenting, but I just siphoned as much of the water as I could, so 80%-90% of it out, and filled it completely with the water from Joey's qt tank. Put him in - within 10 minutes he was twitching. Took him out - fine. I don't think any soil leaching could happen that fast, right? That's why I am wondering if it's just the floating soil particles.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

...and he is twitching again! It's been about 2 weeks since my last post. He is still in the qt, so this has nothing to do with the soil.


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Sorry to hear that olgamc! 
Maybe he still has toxins left in his body? Or maybe they've left neurological damage behind?
But yes, it is possible that his twitching has always had another cause.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

He hasn't done it for a while, so I don't think it's a lasting effect. It's gotta be something in his water, which I am about to change. 

Ammonia and nitrite are both about 0.25, which I know is not great but shouldn't cause twitching, right? There are tiny white things floating in his water. I don't know what they are, but my running diagnosis is that he is sensitive to mechanical irritants. That would confirm why he started twitching a while back when I filled the dirted tank with his water. Nothing was different, since it was his water, except for a few disturbed soil particles. If that's the case, maybe I should be getting him a filter. I haven't got one because dirted tanks don't need one, but maybe it's our fish that does.

Another culprit could be tap water. I know lots of people post that they use water straight out of tap for water changes and that's what I've been doing (primed of course), but apparently it could cause bubbles in their blood and cause this twitching behaviour and can kill them. Seriously, fish are so complicated!

Some links:
http://www.fishyportal.com/cgi-bin/pub/diag?c=v&id=57&did=31106807
http://www.fishyportal.com/cgi-bin/pub/diag?c=v&id=21&did=31106807


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

So over the past several weeks he slowly developed black or dark grey spots at various places on his body. They are not raised, or not yet anyway, and they are elongated, look a bit like tiny spider veins actually. And yesterday when I was feeding him he had a lot of twitching as the pellet was going down into his tummy. Then he yawned and a tiny (1mm or so) white elongated thing came out of his mouth. The black spots appeared so gradually that I thought they were his natural coloring, but this white thing is definitely pointing to parasites. I did some more research, apparently there is a "black spot disease" which is a parasite that starts in the soil (!) and goes to a snail (!) and then to a fish. 

I am using api general cure, will report later how it turns out.


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

Oh yuck, hopefully the meds will do the trick!


----------



## Crossroads (Jun 28, 2014)

Well, it seems he's developed other things but I want to mention that I had a male that did this in response to two things. Sudden change in water parameters(such as during a water change) and sudden changes in lighting(lights going on, lightning outside) and I never found an answer for why he did it, but he did live a long life, if that eases your mind.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks Netti and Crossroads. The tank is 5G, so I sprinkled half of the packet in last night. This morning he has a red patch on his side, still twitching, and sluggish. He did come out to meet me, but when he stops swimming his tail starts to sink, so he hangs there almost vertically with his head at water line. We sat there and looked at each other for a while, then he turned away and swam under his wood and is now resting on the bottom. He looks a little bloated too, so I didn't feed him. Poor guy, is this a normal reaction to general cure or have I done something wrong? BTW, I did the exact same treatment on my other 5G with guppies and those guys are fine! Can I do anything for him? Do you need pics?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, I didn't get anywhere with this question in my other thread, so maybe you guys know? (Sorry for doing multiple threads, I wasn't sure if I should just stick to this one or make one that's more specific... anyways here goes)

I have a few questions guys, could someone clarify them for me please?

According to instructions, you are supposed to wait for 48 hours and then add another dose. That means that you would have doubled the medicine, correct? They don't say to change the water, so I presume they want you to double. 

Then after 48 more hours you are supposed to change 25% of the water and put your filter back in. I don't have a filter. Does that mean I should do a 100% change?

Since it looks like I can't change the water for 4 days, would Prime be able to hold off whatever ammonia/nitrites accumulate in that time? The tank is not cycled.

Thanks!


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I am just guessing, but if you still have meds you could do water changes by re-dosing with the amounts removed above the ones that you should remove. That's what I would do, but you might want to see if there is someone who has a better idea.


----------



## cakes488 (Dec 2, 2015)

follow the directions and do the 25% water change. do you have an airstone...or even just some airline tubing?


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

I think Olgamc is concerned about the ammonia build up during the 4 days where there are no water changes indicated. If I remember right, it is a very small tank, 1 gallon or 1.5!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

It's a 5 gallon at this point. Yes, I am running an air stone. I've read advice somewhere to change the water and re-dose for the amount of change, but I am not so sure this is good advice. 

One reason is that the medicine dissolves very slowly. You can see white flakes of it resting on surfaces for the first 24 hours at least. I am not sure if this is intended and how to replicate it with the water change. 

Second, since my tank is fairly small and the water change would be even smaller, it's really hard to divide a packet of powder into multiple equal parts. 

Third, the packet says it has a carcinogenic ingredient, so I'd rather limit my exposure to it as much possible. So sitting there trying to divide the powder, and maybe breathing or touching some of it in the process really is probably not a good idea. 

Anyways, I dosed him the second dose last night. He has a new red spot, but otherwise is perky this morning. I'll keep dosing Prime daily and fingers crossed.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Okay, so he finished general cure on March 23th. I did a 100% water change and next day I thought I saw him flashing again. I watched him for a few more days, just to confirm that he was indeed flashing and yes he is. 

Yesterday I thought I saw a white spot, which would be ich, so I slowly raised his temp up to 80F. Later in the evening I saw a couple of small blobs of fuzz on his fins (oh no!). So I also added Pimafix. Fuzz seems to be gone today, and Joey is flashing more (which would make sense if it's ich). 

So, here's what I know:
a) fungus grows faster in warmer water 
b) ich dies in warmer water
c) ich carries fungus, which aids it in attaching to fish

So theoretically if I raise water temp and add Pimafix, both issues should be taken care of. Should I add aquarium salt to the mix? I am worried about it, since he was "salted" for fungus less than a month ago and then treated with general cure for parasites, so I am not sure if his system can handle more salt. Should I do baths? I've never done baths before. He also has a yellow part on his body, looks like some previous irritation got infected.

My concern really is that I still don't have a definitive diagnosis. I used general cure because I saw him cough up a bug, and it definitely seemed to help but apparently not entirely. I don't know if I can/should repeat it, should I? I am not sure if he has ich in addition, or if the tiny white spots are something else. I don't know if I am doing the right thing now with the water temp and pimafix. I don't know how to do water changes while treating with api products, since they seem to require that water is not changed for the entire course of treatment. And above all, I am just tired. 4 of my kids are recovering from pneumonia, and I feel like my life is all about dosing medicines.

What should I do guys? Please help me.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Sorry, that's 86F not 80.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

*Some current pictures*

This one shows black marks on his body. They are driving me nuts! He's had them for over a month. What are they? Are they skin flukes? I thought that general cure should have cleaned them up.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Closer to top of his body, between dorsal and caudal there is a black dot. Right next to it is a yellow area. It was red and now it's yellow, looks like it was irritated and now infected.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

This is the same side a week ago. See the red irritated area?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Here is the other side. Right under his eye is a little white spot that looks like it might be ich. There is also a bit of yellow on his body on that side too. It looks like the number 4, see it?


----------



## Flashyfins (Mar 27, 2016)

I think you should have allowed your fish to adjust to the water temperature. This may be the cause. Just wait and see if he stops.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey flashyfins, thanks for the reply! He was flashing before the temperature. That's why I increased it to begin with. I did it slowly, no more than 2F an hour according to instructions on aquahobby:



> Increase temperature to 30°C/86°F. With tropical fish, an increase in temperature to 30°C/86°F is usually very well-tolerated. Since this temperature prevents reproduction of Ich, it can theoretically cure the problem by itself. So the first step would be to increase the temperature slowly, 1°C/2°F per hour until the correct temperature is reached. This temperature should be maintained for 10 days, and then slowly returned to normal. Some fish can tolerate higher temperatures. If your fish are more heat tolerant, try increasing the temperature to 32°C/89.5°F for the first 3-4 days to kill the Ich. Then reduce temperature slowly to 30°C/86°F, and hold it there for an additional 6-7 days, or until a total of 10 days have passed. Gauge the heat tolerance of your fish by observing their reaction.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Nobody else, eh? Man, I wish there was a way to get an exact diagnosis, I am just so tired of guessing!

Well, he is loving the high temperature (30C - 32C). He is happily zooming around, eating, exploring, flaring etc. His color is great. He is not flashing as much, but still scratching his gills on plant leaves occasionally, so something is still definitely there. Will keep monitoring.

Pimafix definitely helped as I am not seeing any fuzz anywhere. The yellow spot - I still don't know if it's infection or what - hasn't changed, so I'll take it as a good sign (i.e. it's not getting worse).

I am doing daily 25% water changes and sucking up debris with a turkey baster every time.


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Hello - well yours has been a complex case. I don't want to try to diagnose either but the Pimafix is good stuff and how long has he been on it now? What improvements have you seen on it?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey LittleStar,

Pimafix - a day and a half. I added it on Saturday late at night as soon as I saw white fuzz on his fins. The fuzz disappeared by Sunday and hasn't returned. 

Pimafix is good to use as first aid or as preventative for fungus and minor bacterial infections, kind of like we would use polysporin. Parasites damage the skin, so secondary infections are very common, so I figured I would use it as a preventative as well. I probably should have done it at the same time as general cure.


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

K - Just make sure to run the full course with the Pimafix even if you see the desired results.
API Pimafix: Internal and External bacterial and fungal infections, clamped fins, reddening of fins of body.

Also see: KanaPlex by Seachem: Bloat, Dropsy, Fungus, Internal Infection, Popeye, Ammonia Poisoning.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hmm, do you know for sure about running the full course with pimafix? It's not an antibiotic.

Kanaplex is a good one, I know. I don't think we are at that point though. I watch him so closely and act quickly, so all his skin issues are quite minor.

LittleStar, you said it took you 5 weeks to cure one of your fish from flukes. What did you do?


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Well I think its just the right thing to do, to use the product the way it is prescribed by running the full treatment. Even though symptoms are not present it can be microscopic and still there so that is why they make the directions for use for certain time period.

Flukes and Ick: Kordon Ick Attack plus Herbal Actives Herbtana parasite expellant.
I used the Kordon Ick Attack for 5 weeks once before the ick was all gone. And used the Herbtana up to 14 days for flukes. And water changes 25% daily with this.

I have never had a case of ick, however stubborn, that wasn't cured with Kordon. When you get the swarmers you can use it twice a day. The real problem with ick is that 1. People wait until payday to begin treatment and then 2. People give up.

Outside of the Betta I can say this with 100% confidence. Petco fish have ick. All of them. Even if they were treating their fish right which they aren't, the filtration systems they use allow disease to travel from one tank into another. You can't bring a fish home from there without immediate QT and expect it to live. There may be exceptions but I would never count on that.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Interesting. I used aq salt for ick, worked like a charm. I'd do it again, but don't want to over-medicate the guy, so that's why I am trying with just heat. I don't even know if it's ick for sure, I just don't know what else to do.


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Well I wouldn't blame you for sticking to what has worked for you in the past, but with the current treatment of Pimafix I wouldn't cut it short.

Hang in there!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Allright, will keep on! I'll do Pimafix for 7 days and heat for 10. If he doesn't stop flashing, I'll do another round of general cure. One thing I don't get with Pimafix is if I only do weekly 25% water changes like they suggest, how is water quality going to be maintained? And if I continue using Pimafix after 7 days, which they say is ok, isn't it going to get built up eventually?


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm not good at diagnosing but I may have useful input maybe;
When setting up the npt, you want to use MG OC Potting Soil/Mix, not garden soil. The potting mix has pasturized chicken poo which is ok, the garden soil has cow poo which causes long term issues and can bring in harmful bacteria to your tank.

Pimafix is a medication meant to be used in a cycled tank. It doesn't kill off nitrifying bacteria so water quality is meant to be maintained by use with a fully established filter.

When used for longer than the initial recommended dose, it shouldn't build up to sufficient amounts to cause issues, however, my personal preference and recommendation is to do a 100% wc and start doses again every time you finish one course of a treatment (even if you want the buildup to occur for the second treatment, I still think it's best to calculate the extra amount of medication needed because clean water is the most essential treatment aid). Also, the actives in the oil in Pimafix will accumulate. 

Although, if you're not seeing improvements after a full course with Pimafix, it might be better to switch to something stronger unless you feel it's not necessary.

I'll also vouch for use of Kordon ich attack. I've used that for a case of external parasites on a Betta I took in from someone once that also had an aggressive case of fin melt that worsened when he was put in heated water (he'd been kept in a cup). Ich attack and water changes were all that was needed to get him healthy again. Love the stuff, despite its smell.

Good luck and I hope he gets well soon~


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Dalloway, thank you so much for input! 

So I know that cow manure is not ideal because it makes for high ammonia initially. I didn't realize that it also brings in bad bacteria. Do you know which kind? Hmm, I guess I'll be ripping that tank down than.

For Pimafix, I have a quozi cycle, because there is a piece of mopani wood with bacteria. Thank tank doesn't have a filter though, so do you think 25% daily water changes are a good idea? Should I dose more pimafix to counter the water I removed? I like the 100% water change at the end of treatment, I did that at the end of general cure. Thanks for confirming that that was the right thing to do.

Do you think he has flukes in addition to possibly ick? I say possibly because I only saw like 1 little white spot and it didn't look like ick he had a while ago. General cure is supposed to be for flukes, it doesn't treat ick, so as soon as I saw that spot I reacted. Do you think I should repeat general cure in the short future if he doesn't stop flashing? It did help somewhat when I used it.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> I didn't realize that it also brings in bad bacteria. Do you know which kind?


Ooh, sorry, I'm no help there. This is something I remember from long ago. After I picked back up on fish keeping I haven't even touched soil tanks again save for a small 2.5g no fish project tank (no time to invest).

I've used pimafix once in an uncycled 5 gallon before and the way I handled that was just doing a few consecutive small water changes every time I saw a hint of green on my ammonia test. And yes, always dose the water coming back in with the same amount of medication. I don't have a bottle of Pimafix on hand anymore but I think it'd be safe to assume that just the concentration of medication you added in that day would be sufficient is my gut feeling. The residue and the small percentage of water being changed shouldn't be that far off.

I, luckily enough, have never had the misfortune of coming across ich in any of my fish ever so I've no experience here but ich should appear as several small spots as is my understanding.

Small white spots are not always infections that need attention. In aging fish, including my own oldest Betta, it's quite common to see an occasional tiny white fuzzy growth on their body. Mine gets it most often on his caudal fin, the top of his head about .5 cm from the base of his dorsal, and more rarely near the bottom of his face. He had one on his head just 2 months back. They disappear and then come back and become more frequent with age but it's never been an actual illness-causing infection. I'm not sure what they are but they're apparently harmless.

I think if he's not having issues with breathing it may not be flukes but that's my inexperienced opinion ^^'. I've seen gill flukes on goldfish and their behavior was to breathe rapidly, isolate themselves and flash regularly but I've never seen it on Betta (this goldfish also died and I got permission to necropsy it from its owner so.. 100% confirmed fluke sighting). 



olgamc said:


> Do you think I should repeat general cure in the short future if he doesn't stop flashing? It did help somewhat when I used it.


I think if Pimafix isn't working and General Cure was then it may be possible that, if you only used one round of General Cure, if there were parasites in the tank that caused him to become ill, the General Cure killed the ones that were alive but there may be more hatching now and infecting him. BUT, and I emphasize this heavily, I'm more experienced with bacteria/antibiotics, not parasites. I think, with General Cure, because it's an antibiotic and antiparasitic in one it's an excellent choice but if he starts getting weak, it might be too much medication for him so I'd make the choice before he gets worse. 

If the only sign of his illness is flashing but he's eating and normal otherwise still then give him a break for a few days with just 100% wc maybe and see how he's doing and then start General Cure again as soon as you feel you need it would be my opinion and once it's been 2+ weeks since the salt treatment it's safe to start him on that again too if you feel he needs a milder treatment. 
(I'm sorry, I know it's horrible but I'm too tired to think and fix that run on sentence. If I didn't make sense anywhere, feel free to point it out, I've had little sleep -_-.)


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hmm, from what you are saying maybe I should do less water changes? 10% maybe instead of 25%, or even just only change when I start seeing ammonia. Just to clarify, I am not using pimafix for parasites per say. I am using it for potential infections that come along with parasites. 

General Cure does have an antibiotic, but it's a gram positive and most bacteria in a fish tank are gram negative. (Can you tell I've been learning? LOL). So it does help somewhat, but I think it's better in combination with pimafix which is gram negative.

So speaking of infections, could you please take a look at the latest pictures I posted where you can see little yellow-ish areas on him. Do they look like infection to you?



> If the only sign of his illness is flashing but he's eating and normal otherwise still then give him a break for a few days with just 100% wc maybe and see how he's doing and then start General Cure again as soon as you feel you need it would be my opinion and once it's been 2+ weeks since the salt treatment it's safe to start him on that again too if you feel he needs a milder treatment.


Ok, sounds like a plan. He is eating and active, so I'll keep watching for now. Somehow the heat treatment makes me feel better. I have no idea why, I could be totally wrong, but I just feel like it's the right thing to do. Weird.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, this is new. Well, not entirely new, but looks worse than before. It looks like part of a scale is missing, and there is a white dot in there.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Speaking of white dots, here are more of them, look closely between the scales.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

I would do water changes according to the directions, I meant if you test the water and find water quality beginning to decline, it's a good idea to start water changes regardless of the directions on the medicine. And also it's a good idea to be on the cautious side and not allow pimafix to build up excessively.

It's true that most bacterial infections that affect fish are gram negative but usually first attackers are actually of the gram positive type so a mild dose of gram positive antibiotic is usually a better first choice than a gram negative as a preventative for sick/injured fish. But yes, gram positive and gram negative are better used in combination when you're uncertain. ^^ and yes, it really is very important to know these things and the differences between bacteria when keeping fish~ It's very rare when you can find a vet that is able to help with fish keeping issues when you're just a hobbyist and not, say, a professional Koi keeper/breeder or something.

I had seen that earlier image but I think the yellowing may just be a color change either natural or due to stress maybe. I've never heard or seen of an infection that turned scales yellow before but it's a good idea to keep an eye on it nevertheless.

If he's potentially got parasites, the heat treatment is definitely a good idea.

The scale loss could be due to stress or him flashing even just against the side of the tank or heater. The Betta I mentioned before that I treated with Kordon ich attack was flashing and lost some scales in a tank that had nothing but java ferns, anacharis and a heater.

I'm not sure what to advise you for the spots but if it's a fungal type Pimafix should be effective. If Pimafix is doing nothing and you think the illness is progressing, Pimafix is probably not going to be enough. I still don't think it's ich though because ich has a characteristic sprinkle pattern and it doesn't look like that to me.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Dalloway, thank you so much for your help! Good to know about gram positive/negative. Thank you for clarifying that the yellowing does not look like an infection, that's a relief!

I agree at this point, it's not ick. The spots are way too small, and he's been sitting in 86-90F water since Sunday (2+ days) so ick should have been severely disabled by now. Great to rule that out!

I'll go with repeating general cure again. It's been long enough since the last treatment. Will gc be ok in 86-88F do you think?


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

You're very welcome, I just hope he gets better soon!

If it's not parasitic and may be the start of a bacterial infection, definitely lower the water temperature. Bacteria thrive at higher water temperatures and combined with stress, infections like columnaris are especially fond of temperatures in the mid 80s and above range.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hmm, so how do I know if it's bacterial or parasitic? Just to recap because his symptoms have changed over the course of this thread: he is deliberately scratching his gills on plants. It seems to get triggered when he swallows or flares, but occasionally he will do it just out of the blue. He is missing a couple of scales, which as you said could be due to scratching, and he's got those black-ish spots that look like they are under scales. He's had them for a long time. If they changed at all, it's been gradual enough that I couldn't tell. Otherwise he is fine - active, flaring, eating, his color is good, his fins are not clamped, there is no mucus, no rapid breathing, his gill covers look fine.

One indication I do have is that general cure made him severely worse at first and then a lot better.

Argh, so hard to decide what to do! I realize I am possibly making an elephant out of a molehill (is that the saying?), but everyone says it's better to catch things early...


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Hello : ) it might be helpful to recap all of the medications you have tired and the reason and duration you tried them for. I for one have a short memory even though I'm sure you've gone over it in a thread or two. I recall I think you were treating for parasites/flukes, did you run the course for that treatment? Help clarify so the answers you get are best suited for your friend. Keep the faith!


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Ah, I had misunderstood and thought you were seeing improvement already on the flashing. I think a recap like LittleStar mentioned would be good, also, how did he react when you started him on it? Could you clarify how it made him severely worse?

And no, no. Catching things at the beginning is definitely always best!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

*Recap*

Yes, that's a good idea LittleStar! Here goes:

*Housing:*
How many gallons is your tank? currently 5
Does it have a filter? no
Does it have a heater? yes
What temperature is your tank? normally 78-80
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? air pump
Does your Betta have tank mates? What kind? pond snails

*Food:*
What food brand do you use? Cobalt
Do you feed flakes or pellets? pellets
Freeze-dried? no
How often do you feed your Betta? 2xday How much? 2 pellets each time

*Maintenance:*
Before your Betta became ill how often did you perform a water change? twice a week minimum
What percentage of water did you change? 50 - 100%
Do you vacuum the substrate or just dip out water? Vacuum
What additives do you use? Prime

*Water Parameters:*

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 7.6
Hardness (GH):
Alkalinity (KH):

*Symptoms and Treatment:*
When did you first notice the symptoms? He's had quite a history (see below), but his latest symptoms appeared 2 weeks ago
How has your Betta’s appearance changed? black marks under scales (those he's had for at least a month), a couple scales missing, a bit of redness and a few scales turned yellow
How has your Betta’s behavior changed? He shakes his head like saying "no" and scratches sides of his head on plants, but see history below as well.
Is your Betta still eating? yes
Have you started treating your Betta? yes 
If so, how? 
- I did one round of api general cure, following instructions. So I dosed it, waited for 48 hours, then dosed it again, waited for another 48 hours, and then did a 100% water change. 
- He was still flashing, and I noticed white fuzz on his fins. I started doing Pimafix for fuzz, which disappeared the next day. Today he is on day 5 of pimafix.
- I raised water temp slowly to 88-90F in hopes to get rid of ick if it was ick. I figured it might be ick because a) I saw tiny white spot on his face and body (note, they were way smaller than the ick he had before) and b) general cure should have taken care of everything else, or so I thought at the time. He has been in this temp for 4 days and I am starting to turn it down, 2F a day. So today he is at 86-88F.

Does your Betta have any history of being ill? yes, see below

How long have you owned your Betta? 3 months Was he or she ill or suffering some sort of damage when purchased? yes, see below

*Joey's history*
We got him for Christmas. He came in an unheated unfiltered 0.7G tank. He came down with ick 2 days after we brought him home. He also had a part of fin missing and one of his eyes was slightly bigger than the other. I got him a heater and did aq salt treatment for 10 days, which cleared everything up.

In mid-February we went away for 4 days. When we came back he was pale and had tiny white cottony bumps on the ends of his fins. I did another aq salt for 10 days at 74F and set up a 1 gallon dirted tank for him to come home to.

When his salt was done, I transferred him to the dirted tank where parameters were being closely monitored. I never saw ammonia or nitrites higher than 0.25. I was adding prime and changing water, just like you do for fish-in cycling. Within a few minutes he started twitching. It looked different than when he had ick. He didn't deliberately scratch, it looked more like seizures to me. I thought maybe I changed the water temp too fast (I didn't), so I kept him in the tank for 3 days afraid to change things on him again. He calmed down but then started up again, so I decided to move him out.

I moved him to his 5 gallon hospital at 78-80F and within a day or 2 he stopped twitching. He was there for 2 weeks. I got him some plants in that time. I got them from a good store, no fish that I could see in their plant tank, and I qt-ed them for 2 days at 80F before putting them in. 

After 2 weeks he started flashing again (this is where his current symptoms begin). Not the seizure type, more like itchy type. I also saw tiny (like dust or dandruff) white things floating in water, he'd twitch if they landed on him, and I saw him cough one up. I used general cure and it made him a lot worse the first day or two, and also irritated his skin. Then he got significantly better. The rest you know from above.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

This is Joey in his hospital after general cure. Close-ups of his current skin are on page 5.


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Okay I believe you have 1. Parasites and 2. Fungus and/or bacterial infection.
Pimafix, finish treatment.

API General Cure he was improving, but perhaps that medication had too many ingredients that may have been too strong. Either way I think you have not cured the parasite issue although I am not positive its my feeling from all I have read.

Consider trying: Paraguard by Seachem: Ick and other parasites such as gill flukes.

I don't know why you increased heat but fungal infections say lower the temp:
bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73332

I've never been a fan of aquarium salt and heat for anything. Others will certainly disagree, but one thing to note is that you can't use AS with certain medications so be careful if you are going that route.

I don't think its columnaris but I have zero experience with that disease.
Other opinions welcomed.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

General Cure uses an anti parasitic that's an inhibitor to growth in parasites. It does seem like his issue is parasitic rather than antibiotic right now and the other bacterial growth (white stuff) could have been secondary infections which are relatively common and not always serious if the fish is in good health otherwise. I think either General Cure repeated with a second dose along with a full tank cleaning (minimizing as much as possible transfer of old water. Preferably get him acclimated to new water and then net him out.) after treatment or a tougher anti parasitic medication like something with Levimisol or Levamisol (which may be discontinued actually, you'll have to double check) or something with Piperazine (I know Hikari has Prazipro but I'm not sure what else has Piperazine).

Sorry, I'd normally look up the meds before posting but I'm in the middle of a lecture right now ^^;. 

The reason I recommend this though is that General Cure doesn't directly kill parasites, it stops them from growing and at that I believe only after a certain stage in its life cycle. So when you use Praziquantinel containing meds it tends to be best if you either follow up with a second treatment after 24 hrs or perform continuous water changes vacuuming everything in the tank and scrubbing ornaments. I'll look up anti parasitic medication for you that are effective after I take my quiz and leave. Just wanted to give you a head start~

Edit: @LittleStar bacterial growth is greatly inhibited by low temperature which makes it easier to kill it quickly. High heat is used for parasites because it speeds up their life cycle. I second it not being columnaris.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

So I looked over the concerns you've mentioned again and I have a question regarding the black spots. Did he have any hints of starting to scratch at the same time they appeared?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey guys,

Dalloway, re general cure: on day 1 and 2 he was twitching like crazy and laying on the bottom kind of tilting on his side, supporting his head with his pectoral fin. He appeared to be breathing heavily, but felt better after I added the air pump. He was hiding a lot, he would squeeze himself into the tiniest darkest crevice under his wood that he could find. And then he suddenly felt better and coughed out a couple of white things. Second dose he didn't mind at all. It did irritate his skin both times.

Re black spots: he started twitching initially when I put him in the dirted tank, which was about a month ago. I noticed black spots shortly after I took him out, however they snuck up on me. I remember thinking that I wasn't sure if I'd seen them before, and also wondering if they were getting worse. I guess I just noticed them gradually, the more carefully I looked the more I found, but I wasn't sure if they were there before.

There is a thread here (http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=85765), and there are many others, according to which the black is normal. But there is also a picture here (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3688), scroll most of the way down until you see Digenean flukes. Granted, it's not a betta, but the spots look so similar! I also researched Black Spot, so maybe that's what it is? I don't know!!!


I think I have a draft plan, based on everyone's input. I am going to gradually lower the temp to 82-84F while finishing Pimafix. Then I will give him rest for a week. By now I read lots of posts of people being very happy with general cure, but they do advise to repeat it after some number of days. Some people say 3-5, some say 14 days. So if I don't see any change and he is still flashing, I'll repeat general cure. I think I'll use pimafix at the same time as a preventative. If during the week he gets new symptoms it will be easier to diagnose and then I can switch medicine because he will have had a break. Does that sound good or what would you advise?


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

The reason I mentioned the black spots is precisely because I thought it could be Black Spot parasites . But no, the image on the second link is demonstrating dropsy, not fluke infection, I do believe that's the fish's coloring. Your Betta is very unlikely infected by Black Spot, I wouldn't worry about the spots either if it looks like those on the first link.

If you're going with General Cure, definitely repeat dosage. It doesn't kill parasites, only stops growth (though the metro in it is supposedly effective against internal parasites or so I heard today?? Don't quote me on that, I heard it from another student.). I do believe the reason he reacted negatively is just because of oxygenation. Praziquantel reduces oxygen levels in the water and at a higher temperature water holds less oxygen to begin with; as a good rule of thumb it's always best to use an air pump or even an uncycled filter for oxygenation when treating with meds even for labyrinth fish.

Edit: And yes, I definitely agree with your plan and that he may need rest but I personally wouldn't wait a full week. Internal parasites are not something you want hanging around long because once the fish stops eating it becomes much more unlikely they recover in my experience. I'm not familiar with any issues regarding the use of Pimafix and metro/prazi but if he doesn't show symptoms of bacterial infection, I wouldn't mix the two unless necessary.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Sorry guys, passed out with the kids last night.



> I do believe that's the fish's coloring


 Tells you how much I know about fish.

So what I've been able to gather is that if it's scales changing color then it's ok, but if it's under scales then it's worrisome. Is that correct? I can't tell for sure about the betta picture, but Joey's black is definitely under scales. What's necrosis anyway? I read that flukes eat away at the skin and scales and cause necrosis. I tried googling it, but the pictures look so gruesome! 

About medicine, I hear what you are saying with Levamisol, I looked around and can't seem to find it. It also works for round worms but not for flukes is what I read (reference). So I think I'll just repeat prazi, because I already have it and it helped and so I might as well, right?

Ok, so I am bringing the temp down because of the oxygen issue. I read 82-84F is recommended for flukes. (I don't know why I keep thinking flukes, I guess because the description on the back of the general cure packet matches Joey's symptoms the closest). I'll finish Pimafix and do a 100% water change. Should I do prazi right away then? I guess the fact that he was on Pimafix for a week after prazi does give him a break, right?

Re what you said about eating - instructions on general cure are just for putting in the water. Should I be feeding it to him somehow too? I do soak his pellets in the aquarium water first, is that enough or should I be doing something else?
Edit: nevermind, found it (reference). Says to put the med in a few tablespoons of water. Soak the food for 15-30 minutes. Dump the water+med into the tank.

Dalloway and LittleStar, thank you so much for your help!

Edit: metro is a gram positive anaerobic antibiotic, but it is also effective against internal parasites. Reference.


----------



## LittleStar (Oct 2, 2015)

Happy to help - just noted you said you would finish Pima then do 100% water change. I don't recommend taking all the water out at once, do several 25% over 4 days when you are finished with the Pima and don't worry if some of the med is left over in the water it will fine - will reduce to zero as you do your water changes. Changing all of the water at once can shock Joey and is harder to keep the temp stable.

I know advice gets confusing especially if the forum treatment says "change all the water" but I just don't agree with that.

Sending positive thoughts your way : )


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Asdfghjkl, I've rewritten this 3 times now.



olgamc said:


> So what I've been able to gather is that if it's scales changing color then it's ok, but if it's under scales then it's worrisome. Is that correct?


Not necessarily. My own DT male (pictured on my avatar) has black outlining the metallic of his scales. I've seen a number of red and green colored Betta at my local pet store that have had that blotches of black coloring as well, not to mention some koi type marbles have a similar pattern. 
Necrosis, or tissue death, looks like a light blackening, grayish pattern on the fish like the receding gray areas between the healthy golden tissue and the fuzzy bacterial growth here:










My best attempt at describing necrosis in fish would appear mostly like a withering patch of grayish scales with shedding of the slime coat and the scales in the surrounding area. Necrosis isn't solid or uniform in color either.

I recommended Levamisol because I don't think it's flukes to be honest but yes, you're totally right. It looks like the common medication that contained Levamisol, DiscoMeds, isn't available anymore :/. I don't know of anywhere else to get it other than vet supply or Ergamisole, neither of which are convenient or worth it. Regarding water changes, whatever you decide to do, Pima contains oils so make sure to do many partial wcs if you go that route. My personal preference is a full wc, I don't think any of the cons involved with a full wc are worth more than the benefits and if properly acclimated I believe the cons are much lessened. Of course, there are definite exceptions. My DT is extremely nervous with being removed from the tank no matter how much I try to associate being cupped with yummy food or try to keep him calm so I always consider back-to-back partial wcs for such fish when needed.
Regarding when you should start again on General Cure.. It depends on how he's acting. If you think he can take another subsequent treatment and you feel he needs it now because of the degree of his symptoms, then I say go for it. If you think he can wait a little, it might be best to give him a short rest.

Ah, no I meant regarding the eating that if his appetite decreased, it usually is an indicator that the fish has progressed to a dangerous level of infection or that he's given up. Neither of which are good. But yes, you can feed it but if you're already presoaking his food in tank water, it's not particularly necessary to make a specific concentrated dose in my experience. 

Ah, ok, so they were right on the metro~


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok, got it, I think...

Joey is cool with changes and being taken out etc. I want to clean his tank really well anyway, because pimafix caused something to grow on the sides of his tank. I read that some algae feeds on the oil in pima.

Hmm, so what I am hearing is that it's likely parasites but not flukes, but general cure is still a good choice, so I should repeat it but not too soon and not too late. :lol: Is that about right? I guess it's not quite the science that I wish it to be, eh? ;-)


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> I read that some algae feeds on the oil in pima.


Ew? I've never heard that before (I also have used Pimafix all of like, twice though) but that just gave me a gross image lol.



olgamc said:


> I guess it's not quite the science that I wish it to be, eh? ;-)


Ah, it never is! Unfortunately a lot of the already small niche of veterinary practices regarding fish are not directed at hobbyists :c. It's tough, I know ^^;, and we can usually only get advice based on personal experiences and the scattered knowledge many in the hobby have which doesn't help to simplify things at all does it?

And do make sure to acclimate him slowly to minimize shock like @LittleStar mentioned then, sick fish are more sensitive~

Good luck and let us know how he's doing


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yes, slow transfer.

I'll keep you posted, you can be sure of that! I just feel so much better now that I have a plan. A few days ago when all my kids were still on their pneumonia meds I was just spent. But now I am good again. Thanks for all your guidance!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

So I changed his water, cleaned out his tank, and got him new pellets (NorthFin, they are really good). I played with him, made him flare, fed him, everything that used to aggravate the itching and I have not seen him scratch or twitch! He is ravenous and his color is great.

I decided that as soon as I see him itchy, I will repeat general cure. So I am mostly telling you guys that he is not twitching because as soon as I say it he starts to twitch again. If it was bugs I want them gone, but I can't bring myself to medicate a guy who looks perfectly fine.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

That's great news! Ooh I feed Northfin 3 times a week as well c:~ I think I like it better than NLS to be honest.

I think I agree with you too.

Personally, with General Cure for parasites, I would always double dose with a few days in between doses. But if your boy is better now that it's been days since the treatment, I think it may be safe to assume he's shed whatever was affecting him and it may even have been in the water itself. Considering the length of treatments he's had to have, a rest is always good in any case~
It might be a good preventative to do daily gravel/tank bottom vacuuming too (small water changes, doesn't even beed to be large ones) in case the water change was the key player in his sudden turn.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

I am really starting to think that he is just extra sensitive to mechanical irritants, because he always does better after a major water change. I don't have a filter, so doing a 100% is the only way I can get his water sparkling.

He has a new scratch on him this morning and just a tiny bit, barely visible, fluff on top of his head. Arrg. I'll do daily small water changes and monitor it, and should I take his wood out? I felt it all over with my fingers, it doesn't feel sharp anywhere, but I guess his skin is more fragile.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Nevermind about the fluff, it's gone. I guess a tuft of whatever that brownish stuff is that has grown in the tank during pimafix got stuck to him. I cleaned his tank well, but the wood still has some on.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

It's actually common to see disappearing tiny white tufts on Betta, especially the older they get. They disappear within at most 24 hrs and happen in healthy fish too, I wouldn't worry too much about those if they disappear quickly and there's no secondary symptom or sign of illness.

I think if it's soft wood like Malaysian, it's not an issue since it's even softer when wet. But if you're finding scratches in him it's likely he's still flashing. It may just be less severe now so that when you're around he's distracted.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Dalloway, you are right! I caught him in the act (red finned? LOL). It must be pretty infrequent now, because I stared at him up close and from far away as much as I could for the last couple of days and didn't see it, but he just did it in front of me now. So general cure it is.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

XD lol red finned, I love that. 

I wonder, if he reacted badly to general cure before... if you tried to acclimate him to the regular concentration if there would be any change. Like take a cup of tank water, dump the med in the cup and slowly dip that water into the tank every few minutes??
I've never had an issue slowly introducing medication in at the proper dosage all at once but then again every living thing has a different tolerance level. 
Just a thought, no idea if it'll work.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

That's a good idea, but the thing is that general cure dissolves very slowly, so it's kind of self-increasing if you know what I mean. The first dose made him twitch a lot, but the second dose didn't bother him at all. So I was wondering (assuming he had bugs), would the med bother the bugs and make them wiggle? I'll try doing what you said though.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> So I was wondering (assuming he had bugs), would the med bother the bugs and make them wiggle?


oh, definitely. You can see it with external parasites often, they'll sort of withdraw into themselves a little and the fish will react when you use medication or salt. 

I forgot General Cure were tabs, I was thinking of powder meds. It's more likely then that it had an effect on the infection or, if I recall correctly, oxygen depletion (at that time you hadn't yet used the air pump right?).


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

No, mine is a powder. Ok, in that case it was both: irritated bugs as well as lack of oxygen. Anyways, I put it in last night and the air pump has been on the whole time, and so far so good!


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

So glad you have good people helping you now Olgamc. I really don't have much experience in medicating fish.

We just got back from Toronto last night, and after work today, on the way home the breaks on my car gave out....SCARY STUFF!!
But we went to the Ripley's Aquarium in Toronto on Saturday, and it was awesome! https://www.ripleyaquariums.com/canada/galleries/


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Good Heavens, Nettie, are you alive? Take care of yourself, you've been through some crazy stuff lately!

Yeah, Ripley's is awesome. We've been there a bunch of times, mostly as volunteers on school trips. It's a popular destination for school trips, so between our 3 school aged children... you get the idea! LOL

And yes, I am very grateful for Dalloway and for this community in general. This is such a nice forum, everyone is so courteous and kind.


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

yup...still here. Thanks! 
Had to press the break pedal all the way to the floor to get that car stopped. Luckily I wasn't going fast at the time! Repair estimate just under a thousand CAD. Just great!! :-(

Seems like a lot of people on the forum have some crazy stuff happening lately.


----------



## Rennie Sky (Feb 27, 2016)

I sure hope your boy ends up well! He's very lucky to have such a committed owner. I've just read the entire thread and it is extremely educational, so your problems may well help other owners and fish.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh Rennie, thank you!

Netti, ouch. But you are ok, that's the most important thing.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

It's been 48 hours, adding 2nd dose. 

(Nevermind everybody, I am just making a note for myself.)


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Urgh, sorry, busy school week with far too many tests but I've been checking my mail alerts for this thread.

How is he today? 
If I'm correct you should be at the end of the first treatment now right?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Dalloway,

Thanks for checking up on us! We had to go away this weekend, so I haven't watched him for a couple of days. I changed his water just now. For some reason he really didn't like the cup this time, his face went pale. I am really looking forward to not having to do a 100% water changes. I'll watch him and keep you posted.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

He just had a spasm and a tiny white worm fell off of him. It was very small, maybe 1mm long and wiggled a little as it fell to the bottom. This is so frustrating!


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

EEEEwwwwe, but as gross as it is, maybe it is a sign the meds are working. I am only concerned about eggs that may still be incubating inside your betta. Is there another round of meds suggested in the treatment?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Netti, 

I found some random blog where the guy says he just keeps treating every 3 days until the bugs are gone. Apparently he does 4-5 full treatments to get everything cleared up. Joey seems to tolerate the meds just fine, so I guess that's what I should do. I might have waited too long for the 2nd treatment. I did a week of pimafix in the middle and a number of days that I was indecisive, so altogether it was at least 10 days between general cure treatments.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> I found some random blog where the guy says he just keeps treating every 3 days until the bugs are gone.


I've seen some people recommend waiting as much as 14 days and have that be effective but personally, if the fish seems to be healthy enough to handle a repeat dosage so soon, 3-6 days is a better rest period as a number of the faster hatching parasites I'm aware of hatch in 2-3 days in the temperatures Betta are kept in. 

If you're noticing ectoparasites, adding aq salt at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons may be helpful in making the treatment more effective.

Edit: it's also quite ok to use salt and metronidazole together.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Wow, busy few days! Dalloway, thanks for the aq salt tip. I am starting another round, this will be his 3rd and hopefully last. I added the salt as you suggested. I haven't seen him twitch other than that last time (though I must admit I have been very busy, so haven't been watching him closely), and there are no new scratches. Yay, hopefully that means the meds are slowly but surely working.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

That's fantastic! Hopefully this means you'll be able to cut back on the treatment soon. Have you seen any more white spots or worms on him?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

No, no new spots or anything. The old yellowish ones look better too. Oh man, this is definitely teaching me patience. I think I introduced new plants too quickly, should have qt-ed them longer.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

It sounds like he's finally getting through it then C:.

How long did you qt for?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

2 days. I know. They came from a fishless tank though, so I thought they were safe.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Hmm, if they came from a fishless tank it shouldn't have caused an issue though. The only things I can think of is if it was an unheated tank that previously contained fish or had cuttings from a fish inhabited tank and there were eggs in hibernation... Not sure how plausible that is, microorganisms are not my forte.
Yeesh, thanks for letting me know though because I'm going to be much more vigilant in the future!


----------



## BettaOfInterest (Mar 1, 2016)

So i have been following this thread for awhile now because I am experiencing something that sounds almost exactly the same. My girl is super twitchy and swims laps rubbing against the back of the tank. 

I too tried General cure and saw some definite improvement but she went back to twitching/flashing within a few days. I tried the second course with same results. Agree completely that it is slow acting and the first day was much worse for her than subsequent.

Please continue to post progress because I am very interested to see how your treatment works/what steps you follow. I am super frustrated at not being able to successfully treat my girl. I have a thread out there from a month or so where a suggestion was gill flukes but I may have to start another. I can still see tiny white things attached to her gill beard/operculum and they are surrounded by mucus. I think I am ready to try PP baths which scare me a bit. 

Anyways, just wanted to let you know that I am out here having the same experience!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks BettaOfInterest, I hope you figure out how to help your little girl! Joey seems well, he just got the top-up this morning so he should be done his full 3rd course on Tuesday. I think I mentioned this earlier, but just in case... I found this blog where the guy describes how he treats gill flukes. He just does general cure over and over again every 3 days, 4 - 5 full treatments or whatever it takes. Joey seems to tolerate it quite well, doesn't phase him at all now, so I can see it being gentle enough to repeat over and over.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> I found this blog where the guy describes how he treats gill flukes. He just does general cure over and over again every 3 days, 4 - 5 full treatments or whatever it takes.


I would like to point out though that if you're repeating a medication multiple times and the fish is not getting significantly better after the 2nd -3rd treatment then it's much better to switch medications and try something else, especially with parasites or fast moving bacterial infections. Not only do you risk whatever you're treating developing resistance to the medication you're using but the longer you keep using antibiotics and such, the more strain you're putting on your fish's organs (kidney). This is especially true with species that tend to be over bred with attention to genetics thrown out the window like Betta. I agree that General Cure is better with repeat doses when the fish can take it, but to repeat the dose over and over when a short term treatment with a stronger ingredient could be available isn't always the best course of action. In my opinion at least. 



BettaOfInterest said:


> Please continue to post progress because I am very interested to see how your treatment works/what steps you follow. I am super frustrated at not being able to successfully treat my girl. I have a thread out there from a month or so where a suggestion was gill flukes but I may have to start another. I can still see tiny white things attached to her gill beard/operculum and they are surrounded by mucus. I think I am ready to try PP baths which scare me a bit.


Have you tried aq salt along with general cure or any other antiparasitic medication?

I like PP for wounds but I find it lacking as a parasite treatment. PP baths aren't that risky though. If your fish has an adverse reaction, use a water conditioner like Seachem Prime at twice the dose and and it'll stop the pp reaction. The conditioner will immediately stop the PP.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ok Joey, this is a test. "No twitching so far". There, I've said it, now I am watching you.


----------



## Netti (Apr 25, 2014)

LOL.....I help you hope


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

XD I too will keep my fingers crossed. Hopefully he's all good and healthy now~


----------



## MyBettaBoys (Apr 2, 2016)

How is Joey? This is by far the longest thread I have ever read. You seem like a very patient person to me


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

MyBettaBoys, you are right, it has turned out to be somewhat of a journal hasn't it? Thanks for your patience in reading through it. 

I am cautiously thrilled to report that I have not seen any twitching, flashing or scratching from the guy. He seems to be doing great! 

Dalloway, thank you so much for your patience and expertise and keeping me on the right track! Your advice has been invaluable. :yourock:


----------



## MyBettaBoys (Apr 2, 2016)

olgamc said:


> MyBettaBoys, you are right, it has turned out to be somewhat of a journal hasn't it? Thanks for your patience in reading through it.
> 
> I am cautiously thrilled to report that I have not seen any twitching, flashing or scratching from the guy. He seems to be doing great!


That is great! Glad to hear that he isn't showing any signs of anything! It's a mystery what caused it though! 

Thanks for replying


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

In retrospect, I think it was two unrelated things. I don't know what happened in the soil based tank, but whatever it was it went away after I took him out. Then a couple of weeks and some new plants later he started up again, and this time it must have been some kind of parasites because general cure eventually solved it.

Lesson learned: if it ain't broke, don't fix it (i.e. if your fish is happy, don't try to make him happier by changing or adding things to his environment).


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> I am cautiously thrilled to report that I have not seen any twitching, flashing or scratching from the guy. He seems to be doing great!
> 
> Dalloway, thank you so much for your patience and expertise and keeping me on the right track! Your advice has been invaluable. :yourock:


Aha *blushes*, thank you but remember you did all the hard work~ I'm very glad to hear your boy has been continuing to act normal and healthy ^^!



olgamc said:


> In retrospect, I think it was two unrelated things. I don't know what happened in the soil based tank, but whatever it was it went away after I took him out.


I usually liked to wait a number of weeks with soil tanks just to be on the safe side. A safe bet for parasites is to wait 2ish weeks at water temperatures of 78+ with no fish/invertebrates. But even so, from pH fluctuations if your water doesn't have enough buffers (mine doesn't) to potentially bad batches of soil since non-aquarium soils aren't sterile can be factors here so it may or may not be the soil specifically that caused the issue. Research labs/companies should donate microscopes to aquarists, I think we, as a collective, would discover new microorganisms regularly for them lol. Free of charge too.



olgamc said:


> Lesson learned: if it ain't broke, don't fix it (i.e. if your fish is happy, don't try to make him happier by changing or adding things to his environment).


XD on the other hand, they're also kind of fickle. After 2 full years with me this Wednesday my DT boy has suddenly decided he's done with snails and now my ramshorns need new homes in my other tanks haha. He's getting fin blowouts from flaring so much :/. Betta are complicated creatures...


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

NOOOOO! He is flashing. I thought I saw it yesterday, and then I thought I was imagining it. But today he has a scratch and is a little clamped and definitely flashing.

Now what? I feel like doing aq salt and heat, same as ick, since this time I am quite sure it's some sort of external parasite. And garlic, because might as well. Should I add general cure to the mix? Or should I go with something entirely different?


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Weird, didn't get a notification for this post. Sorry about the lateness, how is he? Have you started treating already? Do you see the parasites on his body?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Dalloway,

He is confusing me again. So as my last post states he was flashing a lot and going a little clamped. I changed all of his water, partly in preparation for meds, and partly because the tank was starting to grow algae and the water smelled funky. I have to admit, I was quite busy in the week leading up to that, so I haven't done a good cleaning since changing a 100% after last round of general cure. That was 10 days prior. I've done little cleanings and top-ups here and there.

Anyways, after changing all of his water he stopped flashing. I figured that if it was parasites than the flashing should get worse, but instead he unclamped and stopped. Today I did another cleaning and topped him up, so between evaporation and cleaning I had to add 50% back. I used tap water, matched the temp, and dosed Prime into the top-up water before putting it in. He immediately started scratching and kind of shivering, then within a couple of minutes he stopped. He is fine now.

I haven't seen any parasites, and haven't started treating because this just looks to me like it's water quality related. This guy is so sensitive!


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Oh that is confusing oO. 
I haven't used it in a few years so I don't remember but does Prime treat for heavy metals?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Yes it does. Maybe I should wait a bit longer to allow it time to work? At any rate, I think I am going to hold off on treatment until things get obviously worse. I had to learn that lesson with my kids too. We would show up at the doctor's after 2 days of fever and he would send us home.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

No, if Prime treats for that then there's no need to wait. Conditioners work instantaneously. I know fish flash when there are changes in hardness, heavy metals, or other water parameters too. It might just be that he's hypersensitive given he's just recovered. If you have time, try a small ~20% water change and see how he reacts. 50% aren't much to worry about usually but he might just need a few more days of a little extra pampering.



olgamc said:


> I had to learn that lesson with my kids too. We would show up at the doctor's after 2 days of fever and he would send us home.


lol, reminds me when a friend of mine once rushed her kid to the hospital ER because her thermometer read 110 and it never crossed her mind to check the kid's forehead because he was fine, just had a mild cold without a fever but the thermometer was broken. It must be tough to be a mom though, I can't even imagine just how worried moms are 24/7 given how worried I get with just my pets!


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh pets are much worse! Well, no, your first baby is the worst. They sent me home after 7 hours of delivering my first. "Here you go, you'll figure it out." I didn't even know how to hold the guy, let alone feed him! LOL But at least there are doctors and emergencies and helplines etc. With pets you are on your own, and they depend on you a 100%. I don't like playing God. I actually started praying for my fish and have since prayed for other fish and their owners. It's just such a responsibility having a little life depend on a person like that.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

Oh geez, I don't even know why doctors don't have like guides and manuals like when you get puppies x_x! I can't even imagine how I'd be as a mom.. I naturally a calm person but I think I'd freak out 24/7. 

How is he?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh they do have manuals, too many actually. It just comes down to the fact that every mom/baby pair is different. And they were right, I did eventually figure it out... but it took some freaking out. LOL And just as I thought I knew what I was doing I had the next baby, and then I had to learn it all from scratch. 

He is still the same. Every now and then I see him flash, like once every 2-3 days, and then he is fine. But there are tiny white floaty things, they don't look alive, more like tiny pieces of slime maybe. I tried looking at one through my kids' microscope. It didn't look like anything, just a little elongated blob. They are different shapes. I've seen him yawn them out.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

XD do they really have manuals? I never knew that! Well, according to my mom the benefit to being a mother over a pet owner is that as a parent you get to look forward to the day when the birdies leave the nest lol. And it'll be mother's day soon, so happy mother's day ^^~



olgamc said:


> He is still the same. Every now and then I see him flash, like once every 2-3 days, and then he is fine. But there are tiny white floaty things, they don't look alive, more like tiny pieces of slime maybe. I tried looking at one through my kids' microscope. It didn't look like anything, just a little elongated blob. They are different shapes. I've seen him yawn them out.


Ok, this might actually be really good news. If they're slimy and he's been yawning them out, have you seen any on his scales? Do his scales look like they've got a kind of flaky, dry skin look? Because damaged, weakened or irritated slime coats not only present themselves like this but as a result of the slime coat shedding, the fish also flashes just like he would if it were a parasitic infection.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Well, not really manuals per se, but they do have instructions for how to get a good latch, when and how to introduce solids, when to call a doctor, etc. And thank you! 

Ooh, good to know about the slime coat! I did see one of these things on him the other day and then it was gone. I am not sure if it originated on that spot and fell off, or if it got stuck to him when he swam past a plant or something. His skin looks fine though, not dry and not overly slimy.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

olgamc said:


> when and how to introduce solids


I wouldn't even think of that on my own :shock:!! I think I'd need to do more research on how to be a mom than for my dissertation ;;... That's kind of embarrassing..

Can you tell if his poop still brown and solid as well? Sometimes slime coat issues don't present themselves clearly but most cases as far as I'm aware, there's some shedding visible. The best slime coat treatment I know is Kordon's conditioner, NovAqua +.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

LOL You learn on the job. And your mom is right. While I am not looking forward (yet) to my kids moving out, I am definitely enjoying watching them grow and become more independent. Pets get stuck at a certain developmental level, but kids are so interesting and challenging, they never stop learning and changing. And you can never be as proud of your pets, even the cutest or smartest or bestest show ones.

His poop looks allright. I am wondering if I should keep a little bit of aq salt in his water all the time. Some people do that. I have to look up the dosage they use, but it's a fairly small amount. AQ salt is supposed to be good for slime coat.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

lol, I hear you. My dog is wonderful but he's more dependent than ever on us. 

I'm not well versed on aq salt for freshwater use other than for certain treatments so I googled and apparently:


MattsBettas said:


> I'm doubtful that the benefits (if there are any) actually outweigh the risks. The reason salt promotes slime production is because it is an _irritant_... The above linked article had a good section that explained how it disrupts osmoregulation as well.


From:
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=255001

I've mostly kept Corydoras and goldfish before I started keeping Betta so salt was never a viable first treatment option but it seems there are both benefits and drawbacks. I would say, if he's having issues with slime coat it might be better to err on the side of safety. 

This is why I like NovAqua+:
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html#novaqua_plus

^Also, it appears that there's finally been some research done on Stress Coat and the use of aloe vera in aquaria and the findings have been positive so that's another alternative (good to know since I've always been skeptical of that one ).

How has he been?


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

And yet there was this lady around a month or so ago... her fish was like 6 years old. She always added a bit of aq salt.

No change whatsoever. He is still flashing, but very occasionally, and for no apparent reason. I've been doing 50% water changes, to make it easier on him. It seems to be working well, except I resent not being able to really clean his tank, because now it's getting algae. I put a couple of snails in there, which he viciously attacked, so I don't know if that's going to work. Hmm.

Edit: thanks for the product recommendations, I'll keep them in mind.


----------



## Dalloway (Apr 13, 2014)

In that case my recommendation is exactly what you're doing; try it and watch for changes. I personally don't think there could be drastic negative long term side effects unless maybe if you're starting with hard water already or water that's treated with sodium. At least that's what my gut tells me . How has it worked so far?

I find Salvinia minima and Duckweed are fantastic for keeping algae in check. In fact I had to redo my 10 gallon this year because the salvinia in it outcompeted all the rotala and my rotala forest was dying off ^^;. If you need any it's time for me to clear out my tanks a bit of the floaters. I have salvinia on its own, duckweed on its own, and a tank with both mixed. Just pay shipping if you'd like because I'm likely to toss it all anyways. lol, my DT boy has lived with ramshorns for over a year now and his reaction was always just mild curiosity like the picture in my avatar. The past maybe 2 months he's taken to flaring at them and knocking them off the glass to the point that he's blown his fins twice now. Have to find a new tank for my snails too :/. Silly Bettas.


----------



## olgamc (Jan 2, 2016)

Ahha. Good to know. Sorry, I am very busy at the moment, so can't write a longer message, but I just wanted to let you know that I got yours and appreciate it.


----------

