# If an expert could please help me out a little bit I would be most grateful!



## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Ok, so I'm thinking in a year or so I might breed bettas, but the reason I'm thinking a year or so is cause I know practically nothing about breeding them. I'm wondering if an expert could help me out with things I need to know and also the basics of breeding. If I do breed I'm probably going to use my only female, and I don' have a suitable male yet, but here is a picture of Cheng:


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

That girl might not be suitable for breeding. More importantly CTs are a pain to keep. 

I'd research then in a year buy EVERYTHING listed in the stickies and then buy a nice pair.


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Is she a pet store Betta? And she would probably be too old to breed... Crowntails are also hard to breed because of different water parameters.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Ok, I'll look into it, just one more thing, what makes her unsuitable for breeding?


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

@Lebron, yeah she is a petstore betta, but she has(about a month ago)built a bubble nest herself and layed eggs in it


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Ouch... Pet store Bettas are mixed in breeding. They were bred for no goal. It's best to get a higher quality Betta which is when you know of it's history. And Mr.V said unsuitable probably because of her anal fin. As I said, she's going to be too old.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

She has bad rays and bad symmetry. As well as a bad top line. 

Pet store bettas shouldn't be bred IMO. There's enough of them rotting away on shelves.

It takes the same amount of money and time to raise bad bettas as it does to raise good bettas.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

okay, so how old should they be to breed?


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

And also what am I looking for in a good breeding pair?


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

They have to be young. They don't have the you know what drive to breed. I think the limit is 12 months?


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Ok, and also how old would you say my female betta is(out of topic I know but I really want to know)


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

You can't tell with a pet store fish.

For a breeding pair, you want good branching, strong rays, straight edges, symmetry, proper color according to strain, good top line, and a good size and aggression. I won't breed a scrawny, wimpy fish.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Ok, so do I want matching colors? Or would it be fine to do different colors?(I already have a list of everything I need)


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

(are you calling my fish scrawny and or wimpy)


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Go to 

Www.bettysplendens.com

Www.bettatalk.com

And read it ALL the first step in breeding is understanding the most about the betta and fish keeping in general.

Find out the tail type you like or want to breed, then study up on its "best" form. This helped me make a quality purchase from a great breeder. 

Also check out 

Www.internationalbettacongress.org

Hope that helps!


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## Thomasdog (Jan 26, 2012)

Just kinda jumping on but...


> For a breeding pair, you want good branching, strong rays, straight edges, symmetry, proper color according to strain, good top line, and a good size and _*aggression*_


So you WANT aggression? 0_o


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I'd rather have aggression than swimming like crazy around the tank. Aggressive fish breed more easily. They get the whole "I'm going to show you I'm dominant" and it impresses the other fish.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

I agree, usually the female picks the most aggressive male in the wild. It shows how he is healthy strong and has good genes.


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## checkerzelda (Oct 15, 2011)

lillyandquigly said:


> @Lebron, yeah she is a petstore betta, but she has(about a month ago)built a bubble nest herself and layed eggs in it


Wow, building a bubble nest and laying eggs in it you say...that shows she's in her breeding prime and is very ready to breed. Was she in view of a male betta? I think it is unusual for females to do this..they don't normally lay them in the absence of a male and simply re-absorb the eggs internally. My guess is, she's less than 12 months old..maybe 5-8 months. You can tell if CT females are above 1 yr..they are less vigorous and don't exactly respond to males as eagerly as younger ones, haha.

I think whether or not you want to breed her depends on what you want/can do with the resulting babies when they become adult. Generic CTs are much less in demand, they're twice cheaper than even a Superdelta. So unless you're breeding to keep or giving them away for free...it might be wiser to work with 'in demand' fish like HMs/HMPKs as they carry more value and require the same amount of effort and costs as any cheaper fish.

I would say, go ahead and try it if you don't mind being swamped with ~100 CTs. Breeding bettas is a learning experience..people seldom get it right the first time, it might be good to start off with affordable fish before you move on to the higher end range. Since you're not breeding for show anyway, it is ok to pair her with any colour (if you like unpredictability) as long as it is CT. Blue with blue gives you blue, blue with red gives off multicolours. Your choice.


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## Martinismommy (Dec 2, 2010)

These photo's might help you get a good visual on what show quality breeding stock should look like if you are going to breed CT's...

These 2 are sisters....4 months old..









Here are 2 brothers


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## Thomasdog (Jan 26, 2012)

> I'd rather have aggression than swimming like crazy around the tank. Aggressive fish breed more easily. They get the whole "I'm going to show you I'm dominant" and it impresses the other fish.


... (0-0) then I got it backwards.... Sunny was aggressive and Sparta just sat there LOL. I think he has that disease where you randomly fall asleep, no joke. I'll post a vid in care, just to see. :S 
Good luck with your breeding lilly


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

checkerzelda said:


> Wow, building a bubble nest and laying eggs in it you say...that shows she's in her breeding prime and is very ready to breed. Was she in view of a male betta? I think it is unusual for females to do this..they don't normally lay them in the absence of a male and simply re-absorb the eggs internally. My guess is, she's less than 12 months old..maybe 5-8 months. You can tell if CT females are above 1 yr..they are less vigorous and don't exactly respond to males as eagerly as younger ones, haha.
> 
> I think whether or not you want to breed her depends on what you want/can do with the resulting babies when they become adult. Generic CTs are much less in demand, they're twice cheaper than even a Superdelta. So unless you're breeding to keep or giving them away for free...it might be wiser to work with 'in demand' fish like HMs/HMPKs as they carry more value and require the same amount of effort and costs as any cheaper fish.
> 
> I would say, go ahead and try it if you don't mind being swamped with ~100 CTs. Breeding bettas is a learning experience..people seldom get it right the first time, it might be good to start off with affordable fish before you move on to the higher end range. Since you're not breeding for show anyway, it is ok to pair her with any colour (if you like unpredictability) as long as it is CT. Blue with blue gives you blue, blue with red gives off multicolours. Your choice.


she was not in presence of the male when she did that. @Mr.Vamp what would you say would be the best breed for a beginner like myself to breed?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

My question would be what would you do with the babies good or bad crowntails arent in high demand. I personally doubt you will get more then 50 babies.I normally end up with about 30 max be cause I cull hard and or remove the female early. I would say breed your female if you breed fish you love I believe its from your heart and you will do the best for the babies. I would splurge for a nice male but not to expensive it is your first time. And ct arent as hard to breed as people make them out to be.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

I was thinking(because both of my bettas are getting older)in a year or so after I have finished my research they will most likely have passed on and I'm thinking I want to maybe try delta tail bettas


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

or half moons


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

What ever you breed you should like it  I do halfmoon because I love the challenge and the way they look.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

I am somewhat partial to deltatails, but what would be the best breed for a beginner like me to breed?


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

All betta are about the same hm and other long fins might be torn plakats are supposedly more aggressive but I havent noticed it, its more personal preference. I would decide on a goal and go for it if you want to breed a certain line or color be sure to get a good pair. You could do a pair of multi hm most people are willing to take a pair off your hands delta's can be a little harder to find homes for.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

ok yeah I love hm's to


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I have a spawn growing out of multi HMs there not awesome nor do I know how they will turn out bu their history is great and if you want to I could sell you a pair for a discount  Just cause I think they would go to a good home with you. They will be 4 months in late september which is about the age you can start breeding but like said before they are god till 12 months, however I have definitely bred older fish but they have smaller spawns.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

I am first waiting for my other two bettas that I own right now to pass on, they're both pretty old I think, after that I will be looking at betta pairs, but thanks and if you do keep on breeding I might buy from you since you live closer to Oregon


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Sounds good ( my multi line will keep going no worries there ) the other thing you should look into is the method you want to use. You can do all natural, breeder method, and everything in between. Everyone has their own way but you have to decide what works for you. I like to use natural rain water mixed into fresh and cramed with plants in usually a 5 gal container filled about 4 inches. Starting with a ten gal for a fist time breeder is usually easier sense there is more water to work with it can be used as a grow out for a while. My new thing is introducing the female first I have had good success with however many people introduce the male first.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

I have a question, I have two tanks as of now(not counting Chengs tank)Fhils tank, and one thirty gal. would that work as a spawning tank and a growout tank?


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

The 30 Gallon is good for a growout tank.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

and a spawning tank also? Like could it be used for both?


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

No, the growout tank is for the fry. They grow up in that tank. You have to use like a 10 Gallon for a spawning tank.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

^+1 the thirty gal but it depends on the filter I would consider getting a sponge filter for it I have had problems with other types unless they are baffled. 
And for spawning anything between 5-15 gal should work fine for you any larger and the male and female can sometimes get lost and the smaller the tank the harder it is to keep clean and the female can sometimes not get away and be killed.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

so should I use that as both or not?


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

I could block off part of it to have them only be in half of the tank


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

No, you need 2 separate tanks. 1 30 Gallon. And 1 5-15 Gallon.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

ok, but I do want to ask why is that?


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Because, you need a small space for breeding. Such as a 5-15 Gallon. You can't just divide the 30 Gallon. You won't have anymore space. A small spawn can get 100+ fry. It's better to have 2 tanks than use only 1. There would be hormones in the water that you won't see.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

You technically could its just harder for the babies to find food and rotting food is never good


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

what I am saying is, I divide the tank while they are spawning, then when they are ready to be put in a growout tank I take the divider out


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

Babies have a hard time finding food in larger tanks to do it you have to feed more which means more waste which means more cleaning. Usually babies stay in the spawn tank for a month depending on its size then moved to growout when bigger. Technicaly you could use the a thirty but you would have to clean and monitor the water more.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

hmmm I'll have to think about that


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I use cheap plastic storage bins for spawning its more economical


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

For breeding. Try HMPKs. They're the best breeders IMO. Deltas are produced from HM spawns. 

Okay. I spawn in 1.5 gallon shoe boxes (don't do it unless you have experience... going on four years here). I'd get a 10 gallon as a spawn tank.

30 gallon is excellent for grow out.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Ok good, I just tested the 30 gal. and it does in fact hold water. Because I would only be keeping one pair, I think I might go for HM's, my local thrift store almost always has aquariums so I can get one pretty much any time I want.


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## Basement Bettas (May 12, 2012)

Not a quality fish by any means. And a year from now she will be past prime. What are you going to do with 200+ mediocre fish? How many do you realistically think you can give away? And pet shops don't need crappy bred fish. I breed good ones and have found it difficult to get mine to a pet shop. Here they will only pay .16/each. That is what they import them for. 

If you are going to do any breeding you need to make sure the adults are good examples and you produce quality young. And breeding is the easy part. Crowns are hard to produce good finned adults as the rays curl. What are you going to do with 100 males with curled fins? You have no right to bring life into the world that you have not responsibly thought to provide for. When you are ready, get a quality pair and be prepared to bring them to adult hood. Other wise.. do not breed.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Have you read all the posts? I am going to get a quality pair. You have no right to say that I have no right bringing fish into the world, just read posts before you comment, ok?


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

BasementBettas is right all accounts. Not anything against the OP but just people researching in general. 

Also, I believe BasementBettas finished number 2 or 3 in the IBC this year. I'd take her advice. 

Constructive criticism, nothing more.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

A small tip for a first spawn: if you see ALOT of eggs you can scoop some out for less fry. Or cull bent spines and imperfections early on.

Glad you're getting a quality pair. Ten gallons are cheap and great spawning tanks. A spung filter is recommended. However I've always done filterless. The largest tank I've used as a spawn and growout was a twenty long with little issue.


Also, all breeders here started somewhere, most with petstore stock, and some seem to forget that.


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

bambijarvis said:


> Also, all breeders here started somewhere, most with petstore stock, and some seem to forget that.


Yes alot of breeder did start with pet store fish thats why they tell you not to! They speak from their own experiances. They are not trying to be rude, they just get sick of people not taking their advice or ignoring it. 
Its like how my mom tells me not to have kids before i am done with collage. She did it so she know first hand not to do it.


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## bambijarvis (Jul 15, 2012)

Spazzfish said:


> Yes alot of breeder did start with pet store fish thats why they tell you not to! They speak from their own experiances. They are not trying to be rude, they just get sick of people not taking their advice or ignoring it.
> Its like how my mom tells me not to have kids before i am done with collage. She did it so she know first hand not to do it.


And from my experiace I,ve seen somee gorgeouse 'pet store' fish as well as decent spawn resulting. Not everyone has a hundred too drop on thair first pair after getting.supplies with the risk of one or both fish dying after the twenty four hour period, or the chance one won't want to breed.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I think Basement Betta's should have said it nicer we arent trying to discourage learning on this site. Also we should judge many great things have come from breeding not so "perfect" fish. I wish someone would define quality. Quality for whom? I think that some of my pairs have better form and color but it dosent mean that their better over all. No ones fish are better then anyone else's. I felt this coming and made a longer rant about this : http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=107341

Move the conversation about quality pairs and who should breed etc somewhere else like there and lets get back to helping lillyandquigly learn instead of all this negativity.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

A good pair is not worth $100. $50 will get you a nice pair.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

Why is it when people give advice that someone doesn't want to hear its deemed negativity. Yes everyone started somewhere but why is it so wrong to be patient, learn and get a great starting instead of a crappy one? Especially if those people who started with pet store bettas know how much extra work they had to go through to get to where they are and would rather see future breeders use what they learned instead of being stubborn and make the same mistakes they did bc someone didn't kiss their behind and say good job! Breed your bettas while you still have no idea how to even keep stable water chemistry! -___- come on now, I think thicker skin is needed. If you don't like how someone corrects you, don't ask for advice. Simple as that. 

Anyways, I believe research and a good pair is best. The whole goal of people breeding is how you determine where you start. As long as you cull correctly and know what your long term goals are, make the best decision you can. But don't dismiss direction and advice for negativity bc it wasn't what you wanted to hear.


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

I agree. I mean being blunt can stop a lot of fish from dying by getting the point across that unless you research you will cause more harm than good.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Even negative advice can be given civilly and tactfully. And it is not right for anyone to tell someone else they have no right to breed fish. 

So, as Creat said, let's stop the discussion about quality because that is a question with _no right answer. _ Everyone has a different opinion of quality. Some people think diner food is fine cuisine, some don't. Same with fish.

And Anitax, lilyandquiggly IS researching. That is why she started this thread, to ask for advice.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think some people get SHOW quality and breeding quality mixed up.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

They're the same thing. Show quality fish are breeding worthy fish.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

True. Breeding quality doesn't necessarily mean show quality if your aim is not showing. In that case, breeding quality would mean healthy with no visible defects that could pass on to the offspring.

And above all, the most important part of breeding is not the quality of the fish but making sure you know what to do with the babies. Even I will say don't breed if you don't have a concrete plan for getting rid of what could potentially be a spawn of 100 or more. Be prepared to cull down to a manageable number or make absolutely sure you have homes for the babies or a pet store to give them to.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Thanks for explaining what I meant, Sakura. lol The important thing is to start out with healthy parents and to produce healthy fry. Another important thing is to have everything you need before you get started. I've seen people who start a thread by saying Oh, noes, I have fry, what do I do now? Hheeelllppp!!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Show quality fry sell better so it makes more sense to use them as breeder to ensure they go to good homes. 

I'm a firm believer of going through local breeders to obtain stock and learn. Much better than getting information from random people on the web and trying to apply it. A local breeder can show you how to do things, and get you started with the right fish.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Very true and for those who are lucky enough to have a good local breeder, I'd say talk to them and ask them for advice. 

Healthy parents for sure.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

MrVampire181 said:


> Show quality fry sell better so it makes more sense to use them as breeder to ensure they go to good homes.
> 
> I'm a firm believer of going through local breeders to obtain stock and learn. Much better than getting information from random people on the web and trying to apply it. A local breeder can show you how to do things, and get you started with the right fish.


And if you're lucky enough to live by one and can see firsthand how they set things up, what equipment they use, etc.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Yeah. Definitely see the setup hands-on. Get good advice about how to feed and do water changes etc.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I wish I had someone nearby that I could watch and learn from. Not that I'm ever going to breed. lol


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## Anitax3x (Aug 26, 2011)

I never said the opwasnt researching. I just said that I believe it should be done. I guess I was raised to know that even if it sounds rude, the truth is best. But you are right. Correction can be gven in a more civil manner. Personally Im very blunt and honest myself.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

@Mr.vamp, too bad I hadn't met you when I was in colorado, you could have showed me


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I would love to see MrV 's fishroom when it's all put back together.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

lillyandquigly said:


> I am first waiting for my other two bettas that I own right now to pass on, they're both pretty old I think, after that I will be looking at betta pairs, but thanks and if you do keep on breeding I might buy from you since you live closer to Oregon


Wait, you are giving up on your other bettas?!!! You are _*waiting*_ for them to die??!!! What!!!!??


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't think she meant it that way. She probably meant that once they were gone then she'd have more room for a new pair. I don't think she meant she was giving up on them.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

First I'd like to say that I'm glad that you're doing your research and are planning way ahead.

Read/discuss what equipments you have available, what are optional, what can be replaced with a DIY .... etc. and slowly collect them (if you haven't already). IMO breeding can be as expensive or as cheap as you make it. ..... if you ONLY breed during late Spring or early Summer - you shouldn't need a heater. By the time Autumn arrives, you could sell them. If you're lucky, most will still be docile enough to stay in a sorority.

As for fry food - set up buckets of water since mid Spring and you should have tons of food by spring. Live food is better but you could also use hard boiled egg yolk for the first week (if BBS or other food cultures aren't available) ...... Here, what's important is using your imagination/creativity based on common sense of course. 

If they have sufficient food, they should reach 3mm in a few days. Mine can nibble on live tubifex which are always in their tanks. They can also eat newly hatched daphnia .... also always in their tanks. As a note; I do not keep my fry tanks crystal clear. Gunk, debris, natural blood worms, snail wastes, etc are all in there during the first week. I only change the water - daily in small tanks and weekly in big tanks. After the 4th week, I clean everything. 

For breeding containers, you can use plastic tubs (should be cheaper) or stalk thrift (?) stores .... or what ever they're called and get tanks for very cheap. I breed in 1g - 50g (glass tanks and plastic tubs) and in 3 - 24" (7-60cm) water - ALL depending on the male's condition, character, and size. For your first attempt, I suggest going with the 10g (IF it's available to you). 

The same goes for grow outs. You could separate into small tanks or keep them in one big tank. I prefer small tanks and move all to big tanks with water pumps when they reach 2cm or when they can eat big bloodworms. 

You need to set specific goals, what ever it may be - whether form, color, both, or just experience. BUT make sure ALL of your potential fry have homes to go to. I doubt it will go beyond the 100 count (first attempt) - so it should be a good manageable number (less even better). Study the IBC form standards (in case you want to improve form). Learn the specifics on each fin type..... HMPK should be easiest for beginners because they can tolerate most water conditions.


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

dramaqueen said:


> I don't think she meant it that way. She probably meant that once they were gone then she'd have more room for a new pair. I don't think she meant she was giving up on them.


Oh, then in that case, my bad. I apologize. Yes, it is always good to plan ahead!:-D


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

1. the buyer: do you have home for possible fry?  Also, do you know what the "buyer" wants? Ask around. Colors, tail types, etc. Also remember if you go with the common betta fish found in stores you'll have to compete with stores.

2. fry foods: makes sure to have foods on hand before breeding  Do not be discouraged posting on here! *We'll help no matter your decision on what to breed.*

3. the pair: try getting a male to offset a female's flaws, and vice versa. You want them to compliment each other!!

4. Tons of research. I was told to do research, and I had, but I was also told "reading and writing it down is not good enough". So basically, make sure you got most of it down, and you must be confident.

5. Supplies beforehand: I have most of my supplies for my next spawn. I just need another fry food to come in. I have over 12 tanks, 4 breeder bettas, and a handful to house that are pet bettas. I like being prepared!

6. Decide what YOU want to work on. Do you want to work on FINNAGE or COLOR? Also keep in mind "1." which is the BUYER. What will sell better?

I'd hate to see you have to care for 10-50 fry because you cannot find homes.


Be careful, learn lots, and have fun doing it!


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

+1 Indjo and Sena.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

MyRainbowBettaFish said:


> Wait, you are giving up on your other bettas?!!! You are _*waiting*_ for them to die??!!! What!!!!??[/q
> 
> dq got it spot on


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: I'm waiting for Georgie to die - don't want him to, but I know the old fart has to keel over sometime  I see how it could me misinterpreted LOL


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

@sena yeah I'm going to research everything I need to know and make sure I know exactly where they're going throughout the year and once I am done and Fhil and Cheng are gone I will get my new bettas(I will have everything I need first of course


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's a good idea =D Make sure to have enough space ^^ Even check out those thrift stores and such. And even Kijiji. AWESOME deals can be found


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

I've decided on what breed I want, Hm butterflys


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## Sincerely (Apr 22, 2012)

I love HM Butterfly's! Especially blue ones! But if you want to get a awesome pair of butterflies, Martinismommy(Karen) Had a spawn recently and she has pink butterflies. I highly recommend her if you looking to get a pair. I have two pairs from the spawn and I LOVE them.

Good Luck To You! Hope to see a spawn log in the future ;-)


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

Karen has some awsome fish at the moment I am getting a blueish green multi pair with a nice thin white butterfly on the tips of the fins  and red ventrals (I <3 red ventrals)


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

HM butterflies would be awesome!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

_"Keep in mind that a show fish is not always a good breeder, and a breeder does not always have to be a good show fish. 
The phenotype does not always say something about the genotype. A good looking fish can also be that one top fish from a big spawn whereas better results are to be expected from a phenotypically less beautiful fish from a quality line where some important characteristics have been fixed through several generations. 
We have to keep in mind here that the phenotype is not determined by genetics only but also by environmental factors such as water quality, temperature, food, and more." _ 
By: Joep van Esch, PhD



http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=3005


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Thanks OFL, I will keep that quote in mind


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Can you post pictures of perfect hm form so I can get a good idea of what I'm looking for?(I've been prowling aqb so that when the time comes I know what I'm looking for)


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

www.ibcbettas.org


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Thanks Mr.Vampire!


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

lillyandquigly said:


> Can you post pictures of perfect hm form so I can get a good idea of what I'm looking for?(I've been prowling aqb so that when the time comes I know what I'm looking for)


 












:-D


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

thanks kadenjames, that explains why most bettas I've seen labeled hm's don't look like them


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## cjconcepcion (Jun 7, 2012)

KadenJames, is there one of those diagrams for HMPK's?


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

cjconcepcion said:


> KadenJames, is there one of those diagrams for HMPK's?


 
Nope, but I can certainly make one if you'd like.


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## vilmarisv (Apr 17, 2010)

That's really good KadenJames!
Might want to make a note of fin to body proportions too since we've been seeing so many short bodied fsh on AB.


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

KadenJames said:


> Nope, but I can certainly make one if you'd like.


Please do!


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

yeah thanks seriously, this is helping me big time in looking for good body proportions


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

lillyandquigly said:


> yeah thanks seriously, this is helping me big time in looking for good body proportions


 
I'm super happy I could help. There's a lot of breeders out there who try to take advantage of novices, so I'm glad you're able to use it to your advantage. ;-)


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

me to


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## tpocicat (Aug 8, 2011)

KadenJames said:


> I'm super happy I could help. There's a lot of breeders out there who try to take advantage of novices, so I'm glad you're able to use it to your advantage. ;-)


I totally agree, especially when I see bettas for sale I would NEVER consider selling except for pets maybe. For those of us that are really trying to better our chosen betta forms, the more knowledge the better.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

+1


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

Kaden it would be cool if you made a thread with these i am sure it would get stickied its helpful for visual people like myself


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Spazzfish said:


> Kaden it would be cool if you made a thread with these i am sure it would get stickied its helpful for visual people like myself


 
That's certainly a good idea, I'll have to coordinate with Indjo about it. Right now I'm working on taking his entire genetics study research and turning them into a visual display. That'll be its own sticky. I'm also working on a "So, You Want to Breed Bettas?" powerpoint slide for beginners. I'll work on the "what to look for" files when I get a chance. :-D


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Hey, I just read that the import bettas won't live as long, is that true?


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## Spazzfish (Feb 12, 2012)

Yes, buy 2nd gen thia fish bred in the usa if you want that gene pool its safer


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I'd say it greatly depends on how much the qater quality / chemistry changes from Thailand to the area where the betta is being shipped. Thailand bettas are raised and spawned in VERY soft water, often coined as "betta magic" water. It's got all of the necessary minerals, and is the perfect temperature 24/7, 365. Going from a life in this water to the harder waters of the US and other countries, which add chemicals like flouride and chlorine can really do a number on an import. I have buckets of water sitting out 24 hours ahead of time, soaked with indian almond leaves to give it similar chemistry to Thailand water and acclimate them to my water over a period of a couple weeks. I've never had an import die prematurely or unexpectedly using this method. To us, water is water, but to them, it's a completely different living environment.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

ok thanks


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Kaden, if you do draw up more visual guides, be sure to include females too. 

EDIT: Also +1 about the water. We sometimes forget that the water a fish lives in is, well, the water it lives in. Taking a fish from waters such as those in Thailand and plopping it into our waters would be like taking a man from Arizona and dumping him off in Sibera.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

so will the ones from the states probably be fine?


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

Sakura8 said:


> Kaden, if you do draw up more visual guides, be sure to include females too.
> 
> EDIT: Also +1 about the water. We sometimes forget that the water a fish lives in is, well, the water it lives in. Taking a fish from waters such as those in Thailand and plopping it into our waters would be like taking a man from Arizona and dumping him off in Sibera.


Oh yes, who could forget the lovely ladies? :-D





lillyandquigly said:


> so will the ones from the states probably be fine?


As long as you prepare your water and acclimate properly, they should be just fine regardless of if you import or order locally.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

ok thanks


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes and no. Depending on the fish itself, husbandry, and the supplier. One of my imports passed away, but my other two are doing just fine (despite power outages). My bettas from the city live longer than the ones from the store in town.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

KadenJames said:


> That's certainly a good idea, I'll have to coordinate with Indjo about it. Right now I'm working on taking his entire genetics study research and turning them into a visual display. That'll be its own sticky. I'm also working on a "So, You Want to Breed Bettas?" powerpoint slide for beginners. I'll work on the "what to look for" files when I get a chance. :-D


Sounds good.


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

yeah that would be awesome


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

KadenJames said:


> That's certainly a good idea, I'll have to coordinate with Indjo about it. Right now I'm working on taking his entire genetics study research and turning them into a visual display. That'll be its own sticky. I'm also working on a "So, You Want to Breed Bettas?" powerpoint slide for beginners. I'll work on the "what to look for" files when I get a chance. :-D


You could combine all the form pictures in the "form" article - with advice what to breed to to get so and so. The basic "perfect" form could be the ultimate goal on the top of the first page. Then if you have examples of certain forms you could post info on what to breed to to achieve ideal form. 

Thus what to look for and breeding goals could all be in one thread. :lol:


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

yeah!


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## lillyandquigly (Nov 24, 2011)

Well I finally figured out what I'll be looking for in the bettas I'll breed....now the hard part of patience, and saving.


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