# Is this neon tetra ok?



## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

I've had fish in my aquarium for about a month now and when I first got my neons, I had 11 but 2 died in the first week. All of my neons seem super healthy. But there is one I think is healthy because he schools with everyone and he eats very well, but his spine or back is just a tad curved, he has been like this for the whole month and a half I've had him, he lives in good water quality, and has good colors. I'll answer anymore questions. 


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Hi-this seems like the dreaded neon tetra disease-AKA fish tuberculosis. You need to be VERY careful as this can spread to humans. There is no cure unfortunately. They all need to be moved to a quarantine tank away from all other fish. The ones showing symptoms should be euthanized, and the ones that are not should be kept comfortable. You can try dosing an antibiotic like Kanaplex. When around the tank use gloves and wash your hands with soap and water for 1 minute before and afterwards. Don't share supplies between tanks. The best thing to do is quarantine, sanitize, and keep them separated from your other fish. I am so so sorry. If you would like more information I can link you some videos and articles and see if I can get you into touch with a fish doctor who can give you a call if that would help you. Good luck!


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Hi-this seems like the dreaded neon tetra disease-AKA fish tuberculosis. You need to be VERY careful as this can spread to humans. There is no cure unfortunately. They all need to be moved to a quarantine tank away from all other fish. The ones showing symptoms should be euthanized, and the ones that are not should be kept comfortable. You can try dosing an antibiotic like Kanaplex. When around the tank use gloves and wash your hands with soap and water for 1 minute before and afterwards. Don't share supplies between tanks. The best thing to do is quarantine, sanitize, and keep them separated from your other fish. I am so so sorry. If you would like more information I can link you some videos and articles and see if I can get you into touch with a fish doctor who can give you a call if that would help you. Good luck!


Are there chances its not a disease and he just was born that way? He was always like this and has acted no different then any of the other ones. 


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Hi-this seems like the dreaded neon tetra disease-AKA fish tuberculosis. You need to be VERY careful as this can spread to humans. There is no cure unfortunately. They all need to be moved to a quarantine tank away from all other fish. The ones showing symptoms should be euthanized, and the ones that are not should be kept comfortable. You can try dosing an antibiotic like Kanaplex. When around the tank use gloves and wash your hands with soap and water for 1 minute before and afterwards. Don't share supplies between tanks. The best thing to do is quarantine, sanitize, and keep them separated from your other fish. I am so so sorry. If you would like more information I can link you some videos and articles and see if I can get you into touch with a fish doctor who can give you a call if that would help you. Good luck!


As I thought fish tb and ntd are different


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

Maybe u should have just stuck with bettas smh


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

I meant me


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Fish TB, neon tetra disease, dwarf gourami disease, all the same thing.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Fish TB, neon tetra disease, dwarf gourami disease, all the same thing.


Should I just get rid of all the fish and just deep clean it, then get bettas or something. I just put a lot of work into that tank I feel broken


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Fish TB, neon tetra disease, dwarf gourami disease, all the same thing.


If there is a risk of it catching to my family is rather just tank it  and stick with my favorite fish bettas. Bleach the whole tank what do you recommend 


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

Can I move my Julie cory cats to my betta tank


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Hi-to be honest it may be best to humanely euthanize all the fish as yes it can spread to people. After they pass, do not flush them but rather dispose of the bodies safely. Yes, you will want to bleach the tank, supplies, and anything else it may of touched and re-cycle the tank.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

Is there a chance of it just being inbreeding because the camera doesn't do it justice but color is vibrant and the only symptom is the small curve I'm sorry if your sure I'm just in denial


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

You might want to read this before you do anything TB in Fish, Mycobacterium Tuberculosis; Bettas & more. Though extremely rare, it can be passed to mammals through open wounds.

To me it looks like a simple deformity. Especially as he is active and eating and has none of the other symptoms which include: Lethargy, fin and scale loss, emaciation, skin inflammation, white feces, erratic swimming.

Adding: I have always found this site to be a reliable resource Fish TB: As Deadly To Fish As To Humans


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

aidan_1549 said:


> Is there a chance of it just being inbreeding because the camera doesn't do it justice but color is vibrant and the only symptom is the small curve I'm sorry if your sure I'm just in denial
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mean no offence to anyone but I would do a lot more research before I wiped out my entire tank....
How long have you had this fish? If they all act normally I feel like he could just be an off shape...I’m not super familiar with TB as I’ve never encountered it in a tank but I feel like I would need more than a little bend in a neon to euthanize my entire tank and start over. 
I am not a pro tho just my opinion.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

aidan_1549 said:


> Is there a chance of it just being inbreeding because the camera doesn't do it justice but color is vibrant and the only symptom is the small curve I'm sorry if your sure I'm just in denial
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you, I don't know if I want to keep neons anymore, they have put me through stress worrying about ntd.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

BettaloverSara said:


> I mean no offence to anyone but I would do a lot more research before I wiped out my entire tank....
> How long have you had this fish? If they all act normally I feel like he could just be an off shape...I’m not super familiar with TB as I’ve never encountered it in a tank but I feel like I would need more than a little bend in a neon to euthanize my entire tank and start over.
> I am not a pro tho just my opinion.


No I wasn't going to just wipe it yet, I would have done more research.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Once your Neons establish you will love them. IME, it's not unusual to lose one or two when first introduced. They are so common many forget they can also be fragile.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Once your Neons establish you will love them. IME, it's not unusual to lose one or two when first introduced. They are so common many forget they can also be fragile.


Ok thank you. I'm not an expert on other freshwater fish, I'm mostly a betta guy 


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

I agree, don’t get discouraged. I love neons, especially in a large tank with a large shoal. I don’t have any at the moment but I have a shoal of Cardinals which are very similar. I find them to be a little more hardy and they are bigger.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

I would just would be VERY careful and take precautions for NTD, even if it is a simple deformity. If none are showing symptoms, you don't have to wipe the tank yet, just quarantine the one fish. As Russell said, it may just be a simple deformity but if others start showing symptoms then we can move from there. The reason I get so wary is because after further research on this topic a few months ago, I found this:

“Among the investigated [pet store] fish,* 79.4% (85/107) were positive for mycobacteria*, with 8.2% (7 of 85) having two mycobacterial species present. Among the positive fish, the common pathogens M. marinum, Mycobacterium fortuitum (M. fortuitum group) and Mycobacterium chelonae were identified in approx. 90% of fish and other NTM species in 10%, including Mycobacterium peregrinum/septicum, Mycobacterium gordonae, Mycobacterium arupense, Mycobacterium kansasii, Mycobacterium ulcerans and Mycobacterium setense. The well-known human pathogen M. marinum was present in 10.6% of the positive fish (9 of 85). The species of mycobacteria identified in the study are not only recognized as aquarium fish pathogens, but can also cause pathology in humans.” {3} -by the USDA and the National Reference Laboratory for Mycobacteria

This shows that mycobacteria is VERY common in Neon Tetras, but luckily is very rare in bettas. This is also why I prefer cardinal tetras. 

Please do further research and ask for second opinions before making a decision. I am only one person who has had friends have terrible luck with mycobacteria.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Once your Neons establish you will love them. IME, it's not unusual to lose one or two when first introduced. They are so common many forget they can also be fragile.


The first neon that died was the same day due to my filter because it had stress from bladder as I researched.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> I would just would be VERY careful and take precautions for NTD, even if it is a simple deformity. If none are showing symptoms, you don't have to wipe the tank yet, just quarantine the one fish. As Russell said, it may just be a simple deformity but if others start showing symptoms then we can move from there. The reason I get so wary is because after further research on this topic a few months ago, I found this:
> 
> “Among the investigated [pet store] fish,* 79.4% (85/107) were positive for mycobacteria*, with 8.2% (7 of 85) having two mycobacterial species present. Among the positive fish, the common pathogens M. marinum, Mycobacterium fortuitum (M. fortuitum group) and Mycobacterium chelonae were identified in approx. 90% of fish and other NTM species in 10%, including Mycobacterium peregrinum/septicum, Mycobacterium gordonae, Mycobacterium arupense, Mycobacterium kansasii, Mycobacterium ulcerans and Mycobacterium setense. The well-known human pathogen M. marinum was present in 10.6% of the positive fish (9 of 85). The species of mycobacteria identified in the study are not only recognized as aquarium fish pathogens, but can also cause pathology in humans.” {3} -by the USDA and the National Reference Laboratory for Mycobacteria
> 
> ...


I would be worried that quarantine of one fish would be more stressful and the situation I'm in it would he a lot for me to get my quarentine set up for 1 neon at this moment. I would like to it's just the setup I have 


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## SoCalBetta (Apr 15, 2019)

Very informative post, as i was reading this i was stunned and scared that maybe my fish may have died of that but looking at pictures and continued reading .holy cow not possible as they didn't look all weird or bloated before dying..just the fuzzy stuff and maybe stiff fins, i dispose of them in my worm dirt buckets. didn't know fish tb ( hadn't heard it before reading on here) could/would pass to humans. Thank you all for posting informative post to make others aware of possibilities.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Based on further research, I must respectfully disagree that this Tetra has Fish TB.

Before I forget, all dead fish have "fuzzy" stuff on their bodies.

That being said, please do not worry and definitely don't panic or leave the hobby. Your Neon doesn't have _even one symptom_ of this disease let alone the initial symptoms. Here is the list from Fishlab and compared to other site lists of symptoms:

Lethargy
Fin and scale loss
Anorexia
Emaciation
Ulceration
Skin inflammation
Edema
nodules in muscles that may deform the fish
Peritonitis
Erratic swimming
Popeye
Mouth lesions
Reddened skin
White feces
"Mycobacterium has been cultured from swimming pools, natural streams, beaches, tropical fish tanks, estuaries, and city tap water." _Sourced from Fishlab_

"Despite some internet claims, based on my many years of 'house calls' and other professional aquarium maintenance work has shown Fish 'TB' to be relatively uncommon with the exception of cases where the bacteria has been passed around and the fish' immune system has been compromised, this is especially the case with recently confirmed _Mycobacterium triplex_. <<snip?>>

"..... be careful about assuming your fish have Fish TB, unless all symptoms are present and treatment for more likely infections have failed." _Carl Strohmeyer from linked article "_TB in Fish"

"The first sign is normally small purple lesions or 'bumps'.. The lesions will grow and spread and Mycobacterium marinum can proceed to destroy the soft tissue under the skin, including tendons and joints. In severe cases, fish tuberculosis can spread to the bones and cause symptoms similar to arthritis." _Internet Source_

"Fish tuberculosis is not the same as the human disease of the same name. However it is possibly the most common disease amongst aquaria fish. It is a high probability than anyone who has kept a range of tropical fish for any length of time will have experienced it. However - it is also quite unlikely that they will have realised this, for the disease is usually not virulent, is not usually highly contagious and does not have sudden and drastic effects.

"The tubercles are formed initially in the internal organs and appear as small, dirty grey knots, often containing necrotic tissue of blackish colour. These tubercles may have very different sizes and, especially in small fish, may only be found with the aid of a microscope. Normal tissue is pushed aside by the growing tubercles and if these tubercles grow near or into a blood vessel the circulation can be hindered and sometimes bleeding can occur.

"The infection may also spread to the skeleton and then deformities may result, such as crooked spine, deformed cheeks and damaged fin-rays." _Naturalist Richard Torres_

"Infection rates in people are low. In the USofA, where they seem to get it a bit more than in the UK, the rate (for all cases, not just aquaria) is around 0.27 infections per 100,000 population. In the UK, the current rate of murder is 1.22 per 100,000 population. So, you’re likelier to be killed by a loon with a machine gun than catch it. It’s pretty rare." _Internet Source _

"NTM species have been isolated from numerous water sources, including waste water, surface water, recreational water, ground water and tap water.

"Piped water supplies are readily colonized by Mycobacteria. Biofilms may serve as a reservoir for these opportunistic pathogens." _Environmental Protection Agency_

The above are just a few sourced articles and studies. Everything I read avers fish must have many symptoms; not just one.

Neon Tetra Disease is not the same as Fish TB. One is caused by a parasite; the other Mycrobacterium.

"_Pleistophora hyphessobryconis_ is a common microsporidian infection of aquarium fishes, and it has been detected in a few research facilities (Sanders et al., 2012). This parasite, the cause of neon tetra disease, infects a wide variety of aquarium fishes, including tetras, barbs, and goldfish." _Science Direct from a study of Zebra fish _


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

What good info @RussellTheShihTzu!
this guy also has some interesting things to say that might make you feel a little better about losing the odd one. I’ve had a few wonky looking neons in my fish raising and really never gave it much thought.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Wow! What great information! Seems my opinion has changed-from everything I read and was taught NTD was the same as fish TB because the symptoms are so similar but I guess research has been updated since. I apologize for my misinformation as it looks like there are several new sources that I need to look into. Thank you! After reading Russell's info, I do have to agree it is probably a spinal deformity.


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## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

I have always had neons from my very first tank. I have always lost at least one when I first get them. Because of looks and price they are one of the most common and they do get indeed a lot. That has to do with informalities in them. Usually breeders dispose of them before shipping but every now and then a few might get passed the breeders. I had one that was shaped a little oddly so did some reading and when you read a lot it can get scary and you don’t want them anymore. But mine was just that oddly shaped. He did die on his own but none of my other neons have anything wrong with them. The 8 I have now are very active little things. My smallest one actually will get in the middle of my betta girls and grab their food right away from them. He is so funny. But like RTST mentioned they are delicate when coming from pet stores to your home.


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## Kat50 (Dec 22, 2020)

Auto correct changed inbred to indeed


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## Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. (Sep 30, 2019)

Uhhhh, I saw no signs of neon tetras disease in that little photo. I think this is being blown out of the water.


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## BettaloverSara (Oct 15, 2020)

Fish 4 sale ¢50 a fish. said:


> Uhhhh, I saw no signs of neon tetras disease in that little photo. I think this is being blown out of the water.


Personally if I posted a question and someone thought my fish had a disease that could potentially harm me or my family I would want to know. Even though I didn’t agree with the initial diagnosis or that the fish should be euthanized, it led to some research and education for everyone who read the thread which is quite valuable. 
I have little fish loving kids, if someone thinks one of my fish could harm either of them I’d rather be alerted and they be wrong than not be aware at all.


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> I would just would be VERY careful and take precautions for NTD, even if it is a simple deformity. If none are showing symptoms, you don't have to wipe the tank yet, just quarantine the one fish. As Russell said, it may just be a simple deformity but if others start showing symptoms then we can move from there. The reason I get so wary is because after further research on this topic a few months ago, I found this:
> 
> “Among the investigated [pet store] fish,* 79.4% (85/107) were positive for mycobacteria*, with 8.2% (7 of 85) having two mycobacterial species present. Among the positive fish, the common pathogens M. marinum, Mycobacterium fortuitum (M. fortuitum group) and Mycobacterium chelonae were identified in approx. 90% of fish and other NTM species in 10%, including Mycobacterium peregrinum/septicum, Mycobacterium gordonae, Mycobacterium arupense, Mycobacterium kansasii, Mycobacterium ulcerans and Mycobacterium setense. The well-known human pathogen M. marinum was present in 10.6% of the positive fish (9 of 85). The species of mycobacteria identified in the study are not only recognized as aquarium fish pathogens, but can also cause pathology in humans.” {3} -by the USDA and the National Reference Laboratory for Mycobacteria
> 
> ...


Can you reference the actual source, I'm only finding an abstract from one source that neglects to include in the study the infection transmission rates or even the results of transmission. There is no control group from which I can see and there is no reference either to IFR or CFR rates for either human or fish though the article goes on to allude to the dangers of the bacteria being present in the water.
Also, a sample size of 107 fish is incredibly small.

To the OP, please let me know if I'm derailing your thread.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Can you reference the actual source, I'm only finding an abstract from one source that neglects to include in the study the infection transmission rates or even the results of transmission. There is no control group from which I can see and there is no reference either to IFR or CFR rates for either human or fish though the article goes on to allude to the dangers of the bacteria being present in the water.
> Also, a sample size of 107 fish is incredibly small.
> 
> To the OP, please let me know if I'm derailing your thread.


Honestly I got the answers to my original question, talk about mycobacteria as much as you like


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

Veloran said:


> Can you reference the actual source, I'm only finding an abstract from one source that neglects to include in the study the infection transmission rates or even the results of transmission. There is no control group from which I can see and there is no reference either to IFR or CFR rates for either human or fish though the article goes on to allude to the dangers of the bacteria being present in the water.
> Also, a sample size of 107 fish is incredibly small.
> 
> To the OP, please let me know if I'm derailing your thread.


Honestly I got my answer to my original question, use this to talk about mycobacteria as much as you like! And I found the source, Mycobacteria in aquarium fish: results of a 3-year survey indicate caution required in handling pet-shop fish - PubMed


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

aidan_1549 said:


> Honestly I got my answer to my original question, use this to talk about mycobacteria as much as you like! And I found the source, Mycobacteria in aquarium fish: results of a 3-year survey indicate caution required in handling pet-shop fish - PubMed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The source doesn't seem as reliable and maybe seems like cherry picking fish that originally looked sick for the survey.


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

I would also like to apologize for some of my remarks during the thread as I was panicked by information as this is my first non, betta tank and didn't want to loose all the work I put in.


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

Yes, that was the source. I am just extremely cautious with neon tetras showing signs as I have had friends have entire fish rooms wiped from a disease with similar symptoms(although it hasn't been confirmed with lab testing). At this point I don't think it is NTD or TB for Aidan's fish, as Russell enlightened me and I am glad to have learned something new as I previously thought it was a lot more common. But at the same time I am glad we have been able to spread awareness about this through different opinions. I apologize once again for getting my facts wrong.

I've been reading up on it more and both NTD and Fish TB have similar symptoms and can be hard to tell apart without laboratory testing. Here is some more research:


https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts/index.cfm/fuseaction/display.files/fileID/14106










Mycobacterium marinum infection in fish and man: epidemiology, pathophysiology and management; a review


Mycobacterium marinum is an opportunistic pathogen inducing infection in fresh and marine water fish. This pathogen causes necrotizing granuloma like tuberculosis, morbidity and mortality in fish. The cell wall-associated lipid phthiocerol dimycocerosates, ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov






https://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/74501


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## aidan_1549 (Nov 28, 2020)

KekeTheBettaDoc said:


> Yes, that was the source. I am just extremely cautious with neon tetras showing signs as I have had friends have entire fish rooms wiped from a disease with similar symptoms(although it hasn't been confirmed with lab testing). At this point I don't think it is NTD or TB for Aidan's fish, as Russell enlightened me and I am glad to have learned something new as I previously thought it was a lot more common. But at the same time I am glad we have been able to spread awareness about this through different opinions. I apologize once again for getting my facts wrong.
> 
> I've been reading up on it more and both NTD and Fish TB have similar symptoms and can be hard to tell apart without laboratory testing. Here is some more research:
> 
> ...


I definitely agree and I'm sorry your friends had such trouble with it!


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## KekeTheBettaDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

It was terrible, all of his fish started twitching and had lesions all over them and bent spines, not a good way to go.


aidan_1549 said:


> I definitely agree and I'm sorry your friends had such trouble with it!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Veloran (Jun 28, 2014)

aidan_1549 said:


> The source doesn't seem as reliable and maybe seems like cherry picking fish that originally looked sick for the survey.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, I thought, not so much cherry picking but more arguing from a conclusion and using limited data to support that conclusion. Despite my science background, I made similar mistakes in the past and it's a learning experience.


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