# 20 Gallon High stocking



## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I went to Petco to get a new 10 gallon since my current one has been cursed since the day I got it, but I left with a 20 high. Bettas are not part of the plan for this tank. Many sites say you can keep a single angelfish in a 20 high which is what I really want to do, and the entire purpose for getting a 20 high. What else can I put in there? I have some pygmy corydoras in the 10 but I'm not sure how long they're going to make it because of a fight with columnaris. Nothing nippy or small enough to be a snack of course. It's going to be a while before I even get around to setting the tank up, let along cycling it, so I have plenty of time to decide.


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## suppercat (Aug 22, 2016)

I think stocking for a high 20 gallon like for a 10 gallon long. Here are my voted fish: Gourami, dwarf Rasbora, Guppies, Butterfly Fish or Dwarf Puffer if you don't plan for a Betta fish tank.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm staying away from grumpy temperamental fish so a dwarf puffer is off the table. 

The information for angelfish is so jumbled! There's so many mixed opinions on everything! It's like a newbie trying to find a straight answer on betta fish care. I found an angelfish forum but it wouldn't let me register. I sent a message about it so hopefully that gets resolved and I can get some answers.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I answered your PM but I'll also join here.

It really depends on what kind of stocking you want to do. With the Angelfish, I recommend doing only bottom dwelling fish in a tank that size. Mid-top dwelling fish cannot escape the Angel and they are very efficient hunters. They can eat a wide variety of fish and they absolutely will. Even the fish in my 45 get eaten all the time by my half-grown Platinum angel!

If you do want a schooling fish in conjunction with a 'centerpiece' fish, I would recommend a Dwarf Gourami or Honey Gourami or Sparkling Gourami. Honey Gourami are smaller and nicer than Dwarfs and you can keep a trio without too much issue. Or just one will work as well, they aren't overly sociable like corydoras and so they don't _need_ a group but they will be okay with each other if you get one male and two female. 

Sparkling GOurami is much like Honey in that you can have one or a group. They are smaller at about an inch in adult size. Males will 'croak' using their ventral fins and it's audible outside of the tank which is pretty neat! They're typically very tame towards other species of fish as well.

Dwarf gourami are much more aggressive to each other so only one will do, either normal, flame, or powder blue; they're all the same. Then you could do a group of five-seven corydoras and some middle schooling fish. Stay away from nippy tetras and barbs just like you'd do with a Betta since Gourami do have sensitive feelers for their ventral fins; they use them to taste things.

Also remember that aqadvisor.com is a great tool as well!

I just stuck in some numbers just to show you what you'd be at.

If you were to go with some smaller fish instead of a big one, you could get quite a few in there plus shrimp if you wanted to go that route!









This is what it'd look like if you did Angelfish and some corydoras that get about 2 inches (you can pick other species, I just plugged this in for now). It does warn that Angelfish will outgrow that tank and I do agree. As a juvie you can keep it in there without a problem but the fish will not be able to swim much once it is an adult size.









If you want to stick with the Angelfish and you have the room, I would recommend getting a taller tank such as a 45 gallon. A 29 is sufficient for an Angel as well but the fins will deform since they won't have enough room to stretch out totally.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I supposed I ought to reevaluate my plan. A 20 tall is the absolutely biggest I have room (and money) for. Being that I'm still acquiring supplies it'll be a good two months before I even consider purchasing fish so I have plenty of time to debate. 

Does anyone have experience with rams?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I agree.

I do as well. Rams are great but they are very sensitive to nitrate. They live about 2 years on average, though many times they die before that because they are sensitive. I would recommend looking into other apistogramma such as: Apistogramma cacatuoides









Not all look exactly like that, there are many different morphs of this fish and they're much less sensitive than Rams. They are a little more grumpy but if you get lots of hardscape items to break up sight lines and make territories; they're much more happy!

another great Apisto is the A. Macmasteri. We have the blue morph around me but they're similar in size to Cacatuoides and attitude. Great little fishes!









If you want to stick with Rams then you could try the Bolivian Ram, much nicer in personality than German Blue Rams (or the other color morphs). Mikrogeophagus altispinosus









If you want to look at other, more grumpy cichlids that aren't so common you could try Gold Firemouth cichlids: Thorichthys ellioti
They stay smaller around 4-4.5 inches. They aren't as mean as meeki, the regular Firemouth but they do defend their territory. Very easy fish to keep. I'd recommend one. I had a group that one female killed everyone else >.< she had a mean streak in her though, the others were nice and docile.









Another great fish to keep that is super duper easy is the Kribensis (Pelvicachromis pulcher)! I currently have a colony of albino Kribensis which are nicer than the normal type but still all a very easy fish to keep! They get about 4 inches and you could easily keep a pair and some great top dwelling schoolers without a problem!










Or another great small endangered cichlid is the Cryptoheros nanoluteus (Yellow Convict). It shares the name convict in that it has stripes just the same as it's cousin the Black Convict but they are much much much nicer cichlids and do great with other tankmates! Easy and hardy to keep, not very sensitive unless breeding. Females get a gorgeous metallic color on their dorsal fins and bright yellow coloration when wanting to breed.









Cryptoheros Cutteri is another cousin that has the same temperament as the Yellow Convict but they become beautiful white and black when they are showing off or breeding. Very great fish, gets about 4 inches on average.









And one more is the Flag Acara reaching about 4.5 inches. Laetacara curviceps is another great "small" fish that you could keep. I haven't personally kept this one yet but I know Acara's are wonderful tankmates typically (occasionally you get the ornery one). These guys can be beautiful as well! Easy to care for too. It's cousin; Laetacara dorsigera is another small fish that can give German Blue Rams a run for it's money as well if you can find them. I haven't seen these in my area but occasionally see things like this on AquaBid so if you're interested you just have to keep your eyes open and ask around!

L. curviceps









L. dorsigera









If you have other questions about Rams though, just let me know. I just added these other fish for your consideration. I'm not totally trying to take you away from Rams but my experience wasn't all that good. The ram that lasted the longest for me was a female at just over a year. My friend tried to breed them as well and they're terrible parents lol. But her's ended up dying with some cancerous spots unfortunately. It stinks too because they are gorgeous little fish but there are other options too!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Since I'm planning on having a go at dirt in this tank I don't think anyone that's keen on a lot of digging is a good idea. I don't want to have the sand cap ruined and dirt everywhere! Based on what I've read that takes Kribensis out of the mix. I do like the idea of apistos. The Thorichthys ellioti is gorgeous but is my tank large enough?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ah yep, no Kribs then!

There are also many more varieties of apisto as well that you can look up. Especially if you're doing a dirted tank, I would not recommend the Rams as beautiful as they are. Bolivians can still work though. 

The ellioti could work, but just a single. Both sexes are fairly colorful so it could work out. Bottom dwellers like corydoras are good fishto keep with it. That's another stocking where it would be the one big fish and about 5-7 corydoras and that's all. So if you're looking for more fish then stick with the apisto/ram option.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I may go the apisto route. I've seen them at my LFS so I know I could get them. Are there any other centerpiece fish options? All the information online is so conflicting!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

The apistos would be the centerpiece so are you wanting fish compatible with them or other actual options?

Also, are you catering for a specific water type as well? Softwater, hardwater fish. Peaceful, mildly temperamental, or aggressive? Do you want to stick with the same area type like from the Amazon basin or something from Thailand? Do you also want fish you can easily find around your area or are you okay with ordering online or importing if you can't find it around you? All this impacts what kind of fish you may want and will help me to give better suggestions ^_^


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Other options to consider. I'm a very indecisive person which is why I'm working to figure this out before the tank has even started cycling. 

My water is more on the hard side and the pH is 7.5. I should really test the hardness again for an exact number. I would like to avoid things killing each other so very aggressive is a no. Where it's from doesn't matter as long as it's not wild caught. I'm fine with ordering online. My fish store will also order pretty much anything. 

I just want pretty, non murderous fish pretty much. Most sites seem to say many prefer a 20 long over a 20 tall, so I'm not sure what my options actually are. And I have like zero fish experience out side of bettas and pygmy corydoras so I probably shouldn't start with an expensive fish. I also don't want something that will be constantly hiding.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

No worries, I'll just throw fish at you and you can eventually figure it out lol.

Where the fish comes from also is about their water chemistry. You don't want most things from the Amazon basin because it's extremely softwater down there and unless they've been bred for a long time like Neon Tetras, they won't do well in your harder water. That's more of what I was getting at there, sorry.

So if you've got harder water then I definitely don't recommend rams unless you plan to buffer it and lower your pH to at least 6.5-6.8 Some of the places you can order from do breed them in harder water but they don't live as long unfortunately.

*So some centerpiece options:*
3 x Sparkling/Croaking Gourami
3 x Honey Gourami
1 x Dwarf Gourami
1 x Betta fish
1 x Golden Wonder Killifish
3 x Orange Australe Killifish - Aphyosemion australe
3 x Fundulopanchax gardneri killifish
1 x Apistogramma agassizi
1 x Apistogramma cacatuoidies
1 x Apistogramma macmasteri
1 x Yellow Convict - Cryptoheros nanoluteus
1 x Cryptoheros cutteri
3 x Male Platy
3 x Male Guppy
3 x Peacock Gudgeon - Tateurndina ocellicauda
3 x Empire Gudgeon - Hypseleotris compressa
2 x Ornate Ctenopoma - Microctenopoma ansorgii
2 x Banded Ctenopoma - Microctenopoma fasciolatum
3 x Dwarf Ctenopoma - Microctenopoma nanum

*Top-Middle Schooling options:*
Cherry Barbs
Checkerboard Barbs
Golden Dwarf Barb - Pethia gelius (micro fish)
White Cloud Mountain Minnows (cooler water)
Zebra Danios (cooler water)
Leopard Danios (cooler water)
Celestial Pearl Danio (micro fish)
Platy or Guppy
Cardinal Tetra (might be able to get them, usually prefer softer water)
Neon Tetra
Glowlight Tetra
Black Phantom Tetra (personal fave)
Ember Tetra (micro fish)
Dawn Tetra (micro fish)
Jellybean Tetra (micro fish)
Green Fire Neon Tetra (micro fish)
Pygmy Hatchetfish - Carnegiella myersi (micro fish)
Dwarf Pencilfish - Nannostomus marginatus
Daisey's Ricefish (Oryzias woworae)
Scarlet Badis - Dario dario (micro fish) (prefers live food over prepared or frozen)
Blue Badis - Badis badis (same as above)
Flame Badis - Dario hysginon (same as above)
Pygmy Sunfish - Elassoma evergladei (native fish) (micro fish)
Endler's Livebearer
Chili Rasbora - Boraras brigittae (micro fish)
Exclamation Point Rasbora - Boraras urophthalmoides (micro fish)
Dwarf Rasbora - Boraras maculatus (micro fish)
Neon Blue Rasbora - Sundadanio axelrodi (micro fish)
Emerald Dwarf Rasbora - Celestichthys erythromicron (micro fish)
Harlequin Rasboras
Emerald eye Rasbora - Brevibora dorsiocellata
Lambchop Rasbora - Trigonostigma espei (micro fish)
Kubotai Rasbora (micro fish)
Lampeye killifish - Aplocheilichthys kingii (micro fish)
Florida Flag Fish - Jordanella floridae (can be a bit territorial and aggressive if not well fed)

*Bottom Dwelling options:*
Otocinclus
Zebra Otocinclus
Bristlenose Pleco
Clown Pleco
Pit Bull Pleco
Albino Corydoras
Julii Corydoras
Bronze/Emerald Corydoras
Panda Corydoras
Salt and Pepper Corydoras - Corydoras paleatus
Corydoras Habrosus (micro fish)
Corydoras Hastatus (micro fish)
Pygmy Corydoras (micro fish)
Aspidoras sp
South American Bumblebee Catfish (nocturnal)
Anchor Catfish - Hara jerdoni (nocturnal)
Glass Catfish
Kuhli loach (snail eaters)
Yoyo loach (snail eaters)
Dwarf Chain Loach - Ambastaia sidthimunki
Burmese Rosy Loach - Petruichthys sp.
Cobalt Blue Goby - Stiphodon semoni
Rainbow Goby - Stiphodon ornatus
White Cheek Goby - Rhinogobius duospilus (micro fish)
Bumblebee Goby - Brachygobius doriae
Golden Desert Goby - Chlamydogobius eremius
Panda Garra - Garra flavatra
Doctor Garra - Garra ruffa

Okay, that's about all I can come up with at the moment lol. Most of these fish are compatible but what you'll want to do is pick one type from each section ideally. Unfortunately there aren't many centerpiece fish to chose from for your size tank and are peaceful. Steer clear from Paradise fish/Gourami as they are much more mean. Pearl Gourami would be great but they are too big for your tank. 

A word about the Microctenopoma, they are hard to find but gorgeous. They typically need heavy plant cover as well and are slow eaters usually so they're best kept with just a group of themselves and some corydoras and/or otocinclus for a good tank. I included them just to show you in case you are able to find them around.

Let me know if this helps or just really doesn't XD I can help give you numbers on what to keep and what would best go with each other. Mostly Gourami and Rasboras are great together, don't do barbs with Gourami on a general note (cherry's are fine and don't nip).


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Omg thank you so much! That helps a ton! 

I'm assuming 3 gourami would be 1 male with 2 females, correct?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, if I write 3 it's usually 1:2 M:F or 2 would be a pair. Sorry forgot to include that lol. Only took me like an hour to write that out XD If I forgot something and remember, I'll post it here for you ^_^


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I cannot thank you enough for the list! I have so many to look up now and so many options! If it wasn't such a horrid drive I would go to the fish store to see them all in person! And they got Altum angelfish in and what are the chances I would ever see one of those again?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Do not get Altum, they get even bigger than normal and they are sensitive. They are gorgeous though. I saw them once at one of our stores, they do come in occasionally but they're all typically wild caught. Wild caught isn't a bad thing, it's just they usually need some baths and a QT before going into the normal tanks. Most fish will switch to pellet/flake just fine once they figure out it's food. If you get your wild caught fish from a reliable store (not a big chain store) then most of the time they're actually really healthy and will be healthier than tank bred fish as they've been exposed to more in the wild and have more immunity to most diseases.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh goodness I would never get an Altum. I saw a picture of how big those things get. I would just love to see one just once!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Ooh oh okay no worries! haha. Sorry, I just assumed there. But yeah, they are rare. I've only seen them once so definitely go take a look at them!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I've slowly started working my way through the list. No sparking gourami because I don't really like them that much, no dwarf gourami because of the incurable illness they can develop, and no yellow convict (even though they're my favorite for some reason) because most keepers say they enjoy eating other fish. And no guppys or platys because I want something more interesting. Oh and no betta. I want to start branching out. It's going to take me a seriously long time to decide but I think that's a decent start at narrowing it down!


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If you didn't want to do an NPT with plants, you could also look into shell dwelling cichlids, good for your water as well. Adorable little suckers! But usually you do a species only tank for them and then have a breeding colony. Pretty neat!

If you were able to lower the hardness of your water, you could look into Chocolate Gourami or Vaillanti Gourami (Samurai). They are both sensitive and do need soft water. They would do well with lots of plants, blackwater and something like a small aspidoras or habrosus corydoras as a tankmate. You could do a group of them as they stay small. But if you aren't going to change your water then they won't be a good fit.

All cichlids eat other fish, that's pretty normal. Even Rams will eat fish that fit into its mouth. So that's where you'd want to stay away from the other micro fish that I've noted for you.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I definitely don't want to try messing with my pH and hardness too much. 

Micro fish are just so darn cute though! And I'm worried the convict would kill everything regardless of size. I'm thinking I may go with the honey gourami or apistos and chili rasboras. I'll probably change my mind by the time the tank is actually ready though. And how I aquascape it may change things.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Apistogramma cacatuoides is the winner! Now to decide on a schooling fish.... I'm not going to worry about the bottom dwellers for a while since my pygmy corydoras have a slight chance of making it. I haven't found any dead in a couple weeks so it's possible.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention with Apistos. It is best to get a harem if you can, one male and bunch of females. Cacatuoides is a small species so don't worry about fitting in 4-5 of them, they'll do just fine! Plus the females are much much smaller too. Lots of hardscape to provide cover and little caves for them will be the best!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Would one male and 2 females be sufficient? Or should I try for 3 females? 

For the hardscape I was planning on using the two pieces of spider wood I already have in my 10 gallon, either positioned sticking up in the middle of the back of the tank surrounded by rocks and plants, or one piece on either side of the tank with rocks and plants. I'm not sure which would look better yet. Any tips on where to get a lot of rocks for cheap?

Edit: online all the apistos are sold in pairs. How bad would it be to only have one male and one female if that's all I can get?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

At least 3 females if you can.

I might be able to help out when the time comes, one of my stores gets these guys in occasionally and we do get females. So I could grab a couple for you and ship them out. You just pay the price of the fish and shipping is all (heatpack included since it's cooler now) if you wanted to 

lol, it's such a funny idea to me that people have to buy rocks....where I live, it was the end of the glacial ravine and stuff and we literally have a town called Rockville because that's all it is! Rocks! haha. But did you have a specific type of rock in mind? Many times you can get them cheaper at a Tractor Supply or some home improvement place like that unless you're looking for specific types like Seiryu rock, then you'd have to buy online or ask a store to get it in.

If you ended up with a pair, they may not be bonded unless the seller says so and even still, they could just be a random pair. Apistos aren't as picky with that as larger cichlids are but they will harrass the female when it comes to breeding time. You don't have to keep the fry but they will do it regardless of the situation. At that time, they might become a little irritable to other fish but they typically don't hurt them other than give a bit of a chase. At least, mine never killed anyone during their times. Keep them with Ember Tetras, some other random small fish, and Habrosus cory.


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

The time won't come until around January probably but I would appreciate the help! How much are they sold for at your store? 

I've been to countless rivers and streams and none of them have rocks. It's ridiculous. I love the look of the Seiryu rocks but I don't really want to pay $3 per pound, nor do I know how many pounds I would need. 

Aqadvisor actually said no to ember tetras with the apistos. It said the apistos could become too aggressive towards them during mating. It had issues with one other fish as well. It was so odd. Why that one but not other micro fish? I don't get it.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

AqAdvisor is great but it is not a 100% guaranteed truth. They will stock conservatively since a lot of new people use this which is a great idea. That said, 100% stocked is not usually correct and you can actually add more to it if you have a planted tank to take care of the extra bioload. I routinely stock my tanks around 140-150% according to aqAdvisor but it's all compatible species typically and with plants to help out too (as long as they're growing). That all said, they also bump up the aggression level on some things as well. Like they told me that sparkling gouramis get agressive when breeding. Well...not entirely true, they might flare a little more or chase a fish away from their nest but they certainly don't kill other fish. This is true with apistos as well unless you happen to get a nasty male >.< Some of it is also the swimming level of the certain fish. Tetras are known to use the mid to bottom range of the tank which is exactly where the apistos nest. This becomes a problem when the fish swim into the breeding apistos territory and they chase them off. However, fish are smart (to a degree lol) and they will learn (mostly) to steer away from the nesting fish and go elsewhere. I never had a problem with it other than the occasional chase and maybe a nip, nothing serious.

So, it's up to you. I do highly recommend Ember tetras or Green Fire tetras if you can find them, gorgeous little fish! I had a huge old female who ended up with cataracts but she was a very personable fish for a schooling fish lol. Never had anything else like her, she was definitely one of a kind!

So if it might scare you that the apistos *might* eat one or two (depending on their own size and such) if they get real crazy, then go for a fish that stays more up top like the Pygmy marble hatchet (need a lid!) which are pretty neat fish! Never liked the bigger hatchet's but the pygmy's are cute! They're a bit more expensive though.

The apistos here range 3-6 bucks I think IIRC. George usually gives me a discount though since we're part of our club and all which is awesome :-D


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm staying away from hatchetfish because I don't want one jumping out during a water change or something.

I could get ember tetras no problem. I love cherry barbs and one of the other red fish on the list I can't remember the name of. 

My fish store has them listed as $13 something on the website. I'm not sure if that price is accurate or if females are cheaper. Online they common price seems to be $20-40 for a pair, which seems to be a bit much.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah that is a bit much. When the time comes, I can ask George to get in everything and I can ship it to you if you'd like. That way it'd be like 20-25 for the whole group rather than just a pair. They will be younger but that makes it easier on you in the end anyway versus a larger pair. I know the Macmasteri's around here go for a bit more, like 8-9 dollars a fish but George loves us lol so he gives us discounts anyway, doesn't matter who they're going to in the end, he's just happy that people buy the fish ^_^


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

That would be wonderful! Thank you so much!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

I went to the aquatics store on Saturday to get some plants and check the prices. The apistogrammas I want are $16!!! And they're all super tiny! I'm definitely not paying that much! 

I also set up the tank in Saturday. I'm not done messing wit it yet, and all the plants have to grow in, but do you think this would do? I built 4 rock caves and could probably wiggle A little ceramic cave or a flowerpot in the back somewhere so the females have plenty of options.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Looks gorgeous! When the plants fill in, it's going to be a stunning tank! And yeah, that looks about right. I'd maybe add one more smaller driftwood piece of the same time and put it on the bottom in front of the big one or right next to it on the left there where there's a bit of space. Other than that, should be okay!


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## sabrinah (Jan 2, 2015)

Thank you! 

I actually have another spiderwood piece behind the front one because I couldn't fit it anywhere else and have enough caves at the same time. I'll mess around with it more and see what I can do. Maybe I can move the caves forward and the other piece of spiderwood behind it?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, sounds like a good plan


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