# cellophane crossed with solid yields "?"



## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

am curious to what the resulting progeny will look like. let's say that the solid color parent came from a refined line of solid color fish. do all cellophanes possess the marbling gene, and therefore the progeny will be marbled, possessing a mix of the true color of the cello parent and the solid color parent? is the cellophane phenotype a result of a dominant, recessive, or co-dominant gene?

curious because, while as much as i do like the marbling pattern, I dislike having clear fins but on the body would be fine.

*get sciency as much as you'd like. I can keep up. thanks!


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

let's say the male is either blue or black then?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I do not believe cellophanes are marble. Yes marbles may change into pale cellophane during the changing process. But then color up again . . . so they are not cellophanes. What I call "true cellophanes" are not marble based. Cellophanes are mostly produced from cambodian x irid. line. 

Based on that, cellophane x solid irid = probably : irid cambodian, grizzle, pastel, white-ish (depending background), irids.

Black should give you a more diverse pattern. Since it most likely carries irids, so all the above with or without black markings, black, plus cellophane's background. 

*** you may also get red washes, depending background.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks so much indjo! That was very insightful.
For all intents and purposes, I am trying to produce a fancy koi betta utilizing the colors yellow, black, copper/silver, and white. Trying to avoid any type of blue or red on the body. I am expecting a copper mustard female to start off my project with a yellow/copper dragon. How should I proceed?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

This is just assumption - to my experience mixing various color genes will not necessarily produce koi. You need the mutation that allows color blotches (?). I suggest you start with one koi, and cross to other colors. Breed fry back to the koi, if need be. This should retain the koi pattern.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Theoretically, I believe you are correct. However, I was also acting upon the assumption that the koi is a manifestation of the marble gene. while I am claiming this, i've never raised a koi betta before, and they also seem to be very cellophane dominant in their color patterns. Which was also a concern of mine as I do not wish my line to have clear fins.

more or less, this is what I would like to create:


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I've only worked with kpi a few times - not really enough experience to discuss their genetics. And I never produced marbles with koi (unknown background) x solid (my line) cross. I'm not sure whether the marbles didn't survive or koi isn't related to marbles because I only produced 100 or less fry (assuming 1000 is 100%). The kois I used had white body background (I don't like pale). But most fry became multi colored. Very few were koi. I did get some clear fins though.

That female looks like marble, the dark color is fading to pale. Either that or it is a "real" pattern that I don't know how to manipulate (I had some of those patterns through the years). Breeding them to solids doesn't always produce such patterns. . . . . I always tried to breed those pattern out. 
Since you are referring to that female as a koi, I am doubting what you mean by koi. To my knowledge koi is more of blotches of colors with light color background. . . . like the carp-koi 

***Note:
Regardless of theory, I rely more on experience. If theory says koi needs marble genes, I didn't experience it. So I am still in doubt whether koi is related to marble or not.


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## snowflake311 (Jun 19, 2013)

Are koi bettas just marbles? Or their color never changes?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

indjo said:


> I've only worked with kpi a few times - not really enough experience to discuss their genetics. And I never produced marbles with koi (unknown background) x solid (my line) cross. I'm not sure whether the marbles didn't survive or koi isn't related to marbles because I only produced 100 or less fry (assuming 1000 is 100%). The kois I used had white body background (I don't like pale). But most fry became multi colored. Very few were koi. I did get some clear fins though.
> 
> That female looks like marble, the dark color is fading to pale. Either that or it is a "real" pattern that I don't know how to manipulate (I had some of those patterns through the years). Breeding them to solids doesn't always produce such patterns. . . . . I always tried to breed those pattern out.
> Since you are referring to that female as a koi, I am doubting what you mean by koi. To my knowledge koi is more of blotches of colors with light color background. . . . like the carp-koi
> ...


Can't thank you enough for answering my questions Indjo. Now that you mention it, you're right about Koi not being the appropriate designation. Upon additional observation, the pattern of the aforementioned fish resembles a grizzled pattern, but rather than green or blue on a pale body, we can replace blue/green with black, and the flesh with yellow. Then the iridescence can be slapped on. If this is truly the case, this is great news as it means that the pattern is not subjected to fading but new questions arise, how is the grizzled pattern inherited? Is it dominant, recessive, or codominant? 

Sorry for asking so many questions. But thanks so much again for the knowledge you've shared-- I'm soaking up as much as I can! Based upon your observations, could it be possible that the koi pattern is a result of restricted expression of all pigment layers? Meaning, technically without the koi gene, the fish would resemble a multicolor, but with it, certain layers of skin/fin would be suppressed, which would be different from marble expression.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Grizzle is a result of cambodian x irid. = probability; cambodian pattern with various level of irid on body and fin, irid (mostly multi), cellophane, grizzle, pastel pattern. I don't know how to categorize recessive-dominant on the grizzle. Maybe semi - dominent, not sure. I'm also not sure how to create a grizzled black. Crossing blacks to combodian like patterns never gave me grizzled black. Usually the closest to grizzle is the edge of the scales are black (like pineapple). TBH, I never really took notice since that wasn't my goal.

Assuming you want the above pattern (female), you could try to breed her to a black then breed son to mother to fix her pattern to your line. You could always add yellow or other light colors later, once the pattern is fixed. But I must warn you that yellow and white are quite recessive.

Yes, that is what I believe makes koi - that mutation. . . . crossing various colors for a few years NEVER gave me koi patterns. I only got tons of multis.

Something I never understood was actual white (not pale nor clear) head (piebald), body background (koi, grizzle, etc), or fins (butterfly). They pop up when they want to but I can't actually breed for them, not even through inbreeding. Perhaps you could share such info if you happen to come across it. . . . That being said, I'm not sure how you could avoid pale/clear fins.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

well, unfortunately, i dont not have the female described above to work with. what i do have is a copper mustard gas pair to start things off. was hoping to get more intensified yellows as well as tempered iridescence (father has too much, mother has too little). 

because yellow and white are extremely recessive, I've made an note to make sure that the parents are red-free as possible. i figured it was a good place to start since these are recessive traits and are almost guaranteed to be fixed, homogenous genes to work with. if my genes are what i hope they are, best case scenario, im looking at an F1 with yellow/black fins, black bodies with a bit of yellow underneath their bodies, and copper iridescence. would love to get the piebald/monster gene in there for a white face.

will let you know how my progress goes. until then, i guess all that can be done is read, read, and find examples...


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