# Are my bettas all that I think that they are?



## crowntaillove3

Hey, guys. I was just curious to see if my bettas are show or breeding quality. I'll take any comments on them that you have!
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Sorry for the bad quality...Fireheart doesn't exactly love the camera!


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## crowntaillove3

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## crowntaillove3

I finally got a pic that does Fireheart's colors true justice, or at least as close as you can get with a camera!
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## crowntaillove3

I know that the pic is turned...but because of the angle of his body that I took the pic at, you can still see him.


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## crowntaillove3

The green crowntail in the second pic is actually the one in my avatar. I have no idea why some pics of him are green and some are blue...


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## hannah16

Hello,

Both seem to have messy rays but then again I can't be certain since they aren't flaring. But I wouldn't breed them. If you want to get into breeding, contact an American breeder or buy off aquabid. 

Also, though they're not breeding quality, they are still lovely bettas.


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## crowntaillove3

Thanks. I've tried to get a good pic of them flaring, but they won't cooperate.


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## bryzy

For shows, you can not BUY a fish from a pet store. You have to breed it, or have written and signed permission from the breeder. Also, I would try to get a better quality betta, such as a HMPK, PK, or HM for breeding.


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## hannah16

If you want nice quality breeding fish from a petstore, talk to your Petco and ask where they get there fish. Most get them from Thailand so you can buy from there. Though I still recommend buying from a breeder.

Also, since HM, HMPK and PKs are over bred (Meaning lots of people breed them) try finding nicely rayed CT's. I purchased 4 bettas from WALMART.. That had really nice rays. I suggest carefully looking through Petco CT's if that is what you want to stick with. Look on AB to see Thailand CT's.


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## crowntaillove3

I'm not stuck on CTs, but they are my favorite. I was lucky to find some decent ones a petsmart in a very limited stock.


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## Basement Bettas

pet quality. 

Breeders have a saying. Breed the best.. show second best and cull the rest.. Thai breeders the same. They breed their best., show second best.. and they compete as commercial breeders.. then what they offer for sale are their CULLS. The better ones go on AB and they try to get some money for the interesting ones and better bred ones. The rest.. and the ones they just breed for sheer numbers are sent to pet shops. Please stop thinking you are going to find some high quality show fish at a local shop. Enjoy your fish.., breed them if you want. but understand you will not have anything competitive or close to show quality.

If you want to know what is and is not show quality.. join the IBC. or join my facebook page and read the reviews I do on the ones that make listed on AB.


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## crowntaillove3

I didn't know that. I wasn't planning on entering them in shows or anything. I'm hoping to purchase a female and breed them eventually. It is kind of a dream of mine to have my own betta farm. Then, I'll start thinking about shows. I was just curious to see if my fish could play with the big dogs. I am just happy to have them.


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## crowntaillove3

Oh, basement bettas! I've seen some of your videos on youtube! I just now noticed the username.


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## crowntaillove3

I just got both of them to flare, and they both have a 180 degree spread.


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## ChoclateBetta

Yeah Carters a Cull but a lovely Fish. You can edit posts and add them to the same post.


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## crowntaillove3

It is possible to get a lovely fish, even if all of the genetics can be traced back to pet store fish...It is a lot more work, though, breeding time and time and time until you get a show quality fish in like the 5th or 6th gen.


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## ChoclateBetta

You get lovely pets from pet stores but weak genetics that are not show quality.


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## bryzy

Please stop thinking you are going to find some high quality show fish at a local shop. Enjoy your fish.., breed them if you want. but understand you will not have anything competitive or close to show quality.

If you want to know what is and is not show quality.. join the IBC. or join my facebook page and read the reviews I do on the ones that make listed on AB.[/quote] basmentbettas


Hey, that was VERY VERY rude!!! She is new to betta keeping, and this as made me very upset...:evil:


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## ChoclateBetta

I want to make it clear pet store fish are Culls. But still lovely with personality. I mean the red on Carter ruins his quality but I like the looks. I find some of those high qualities to be ugly.


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## bryzy

I still can't believe that Neptune is a cull... but still. I was very offended by his comment.


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## ChoclateBetta

Bettas can look very nice and not be show quality.


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## bryzy

I know. But the comment Basement Bettas comment was a bit rude to a new user. I am very aware of all the things about petstores.


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## ChoclateBetta

I hear they cost .50$ each.


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## aemaki09

Just wanted to say that IT IS COMPLETELY POSSIBLE to end up with show quality fish breeding from petstore fish!

Chard56 did it, and I'm sure he isnt the only one who started this way. I read that it took him 5 years, but he did it. He also won new breeder of the year last year, his first year, at the IBC shows. So please dont be discouraged. I dont think that you will get show fish out of your first few spawns, but eventually, if you keep breeding only the best that you have from spawns you can end up with show quality fish too! 

Of course it would be cheaper and faster to buy from a reputable breeder. At the same time, some people want a challenge, some people want to know that their wins and fish came from their own hard work into making them what they are.


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## ChoclateBetta

Must have been a slip in culling.


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## Hallyx

Basement Bettas is an experienced show-breeder and one of the best in the country, perhaps the world. She is merely direct and honest---not rude. 

I would feel privileged to have her respond to a thread of mine.

When I first signed on to online forums, over fifteen years ago, I was offered this advice: It's the internet.


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## dramaqueen

Yes, she's very honest when she gives her opinion and to some people she may seem rude if they don't know her but she would never be I tentionally rude to anyone.


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## bryzy

Ok guys. That got me a bit ticked. Especially cause she is a personal friend of mine, and just was so excited.


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## Sakura8

Crowntaillove, I apologize if you were offended in any way. If you encounter any problems here on the forum, please don't hesitate to contact a mod. Welcome to our forum. You have beautiful, beautiful fish. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of their quality or form. If you love them, that's all that matters.


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## crowntaillove3

I am not offended in any way. I know that basementbettas is an experienced breeder, and he/she was just voicing his/her opinion. It is possible for me to end up with a show quality fish by breeding. And I am just happy to have fish as awesome as they are. For 6.78 at petsmart, I'm very satisfied with them! No hard feelings.


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## Sakura8

I'm very glad to hear that, crowntaillove.


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## Basement Bettas

bryanacute said:


> Hey, that was VERY VERY rude!!! She is new to betta keeping, and this as made me very upset...:evil:


First of all .. and am not a he.

She may be new but she came to the SHOW area of this forum and ASKED for an opinion relating to the quality of her fish. If she had done it elsewhere she could have gotten the warm fuzzies. I am NOT going to tell someone they have a great fish in a section for SHOW fish. If you can not deal with the fact your fish is not worth breeding or showing in the eyes of a breeder that competes.. and your gonna get all offended then put your request some where else. Again.. this is a SHOW fish section. 

And about the fish from pet shops winning new breeder... you have never been to a shows and seen the class. New breeder is ENTIRELY different than the regular classes and the competition in the past has not been what it is this season. When his fish win a Best of Variety of Show.. then and ONLY then can you tell me pet shop bettas produce show quality fish.


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## Basement Bettas

bryanacute said:


> I know. But the comment Basement Bettas comment was a bit rude to a new user. I am very aware of all the things about petstores.


Enough about me being rude. This was the request:
"Hey, guys. I was just curious to see if my bettas are *show or breeding quality*. I'll take *any* comments on them that you have!"

I replied they were pet quality. What would you expect me to say. They were nice and go ahead and breed the fins off them? Give me a break. You want me to tear them apart fault by fault? I was very nice.. considering what was asked. Now leave it alone or go to another part of the forum.


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## ChoclateBetta

Plus Petstore bettas are usually to old to breed.


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## dramaqueen

Guys, if you ask a breeder to critique your fish you have to be ready to accept what they say especially if you're showing them a petstore fish then that fish will probably have a lot of faults form wise. Just because someone tells you your fish has bad form doesn't mean they're trying to be mean. They're just telling it how they see it. I don't think anyone that goes to a show,shows their fish and has a judge say what the fish 's faults whines about how mean the judge was for critiquing their fish.


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## crowntaillove3

Knock it off!!! I'm not offended, and I was ready to take anything thrown at me! I did ask for other people's opinion, and although I am grateful that you were concerned for me, Bryana, I was ready to take it. I'm not defending anyone. I went into this knowing what some people might say. I appreciate your concern, but I'm okay.


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## Sakura8

Well said, Crowntaillove.


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## crowntaillove3

And I would actually appreciate tearing them apart fault by fault. This is a learning experience and I would like to know what is good about my fish and what is not. The point of this forum is for new owners to learn, and I would like to learn something about show quality bettas. That is why I started this thread.


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## crowntaillove3

I think no less of my bettas. They are my fish, and because of that I like them better than any show quality betta. They are my favorite because they are MINE!! . But, it is a small dream of mine to become a breeder and to enter shows. So I want to know.


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## LittleBlueFishlets

Basement Bettas said:


> ... Breeders have a saying. Breed the best.. show second best and cull the rest.. Thai breeders the same. They breed their best., show second best.. and they compete as commercial breeders.. then what they offer for sale are their CULLS. The better ones go on AB and they try to get some money for the interesting ones and better bred ones. The rest.. and the ones they just breed for sheer numbers are sent to pet shops.


This makes perfect sense to me. A breeder (of any species, not just fish), is going to hold onto his/her BEST offspring in order to produce future generations. Everything the breeder doesn't keep is, in effect, a cull. So everyone who buys a fish on AB is, basically, getting another breeder's cull - which means that the only way to have a fish that isn't a cull is to breed it yourself.



> If you want to know what is and is not show quality.. join the IBC. or join my facebook page and read the reviews I do on the ones that make listed on AB.


Just read two reviews on your FB page. Both were VERY informative! You described how the fish compared to show standards (color, form, condition, etc.). You even give recommendations on breeding in order to improve the line.... And, I should add, neither was your fish - but you still provided links to the AB auctions.

I think that anyone looking to purchase bettas for breeding would find a lot of excellent info in your FB reviews.


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## LittleBlueFishlets

crowntaillove3 said:


> And I would actually appreciate tearing them apart fault by fault. This is a learning experience and I would like to know what is good about my fish and what is not. The point of this forum is for new owners to learn, and I would like to learn something about show quality bettas. That is why I started this thread.


Go to Basement Betta's FB page and read the reviews. The ones I've been reading aren't for her Bettas. They are other breeders' fish being auctioned on AB. On her longer reviews, she critiques the fish, according to show standards: what's good, what could be improved. Then she gives breeding advice.

There aren't too many CTs, but there are some. (Lots of gorgeous HMs.) For most of the CTs, there's a picture of a CT, a quick critique, and an AB link.


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## Basement Bettas

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Go to Basement Betta's FB page and read the reviews. The ones I've been reading aren't for her Bettas. They are other breeders' fish being auctioned on AB. On her longer reviews, she critiques the fish, according to show standards: what's good, what could be improved. Then she gives breeding advice.
> 
> There aren't too many CTs, but there are some. (Lots of gorgeous HMs.) For most of the CTs, there's a picture of a CT, a quick critique, and an AB link.


It's hard to find a good CT. Been trying lately as I have been wanting one.The one I DID want I asked about a female and breeder never got back to me. Auction ended with no sale and they will not get back to me even on that fish. Will make a point of trying to do more CT's.

I like to find a basically good fish so I can point out what is really good.. to train the eye to look for it. Then we get nit picky and show the faults. But these are usually really good fish.. so the flaws are minor. Again.. the idea is to get you used to SEEING those little flaws so you can evaluate fish for breeding on the internet and in your fish room.

With fish and a standard like this..









or this..











How do you expect me to view a pet shop fish? Are they bad fish? No. They just are not show fish and really should not be submitted to this kind of standard.

Most fish anywhere are going to fall short in spread and condition. Then there are the stubby dorsal rays and the too short or bent tail rays messing up the edges. Then there are the color faults. As drop dead gorgeous as that red is I can still fault him. Stare at fish like this and compare them to others and you can start to see the basic form faults.. and then I can help you see the rest.


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## Basement Bettas

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> Just read two reviews on your FB page. Both were VERY informative! You described how the fish compared to show standards (color, form, condition, etc.). You even give recommendations on breeding in order to improve the line.... And, I should add, neither was your fish - but you still provided links to the AB auctions.
> 
> I think that anyone looking to purchase bettas for breeding would find a lot of excellent info in your FB reviews.


Thanks. I am passionate about these fish and breeding the best ones I can. I show to make sure I am on track .. but it is the breeding I love. I also love to educate and would love more in the hobby. Those Thai breeders should give me commission since fish I feature often sell for some good money.. lol. 

Many people go to AB and get lost in all the color. If you are a serious breeder or even just starting out, you want to make good use of your money. A single fish can cost close to $70 to get to your doorstep.. and it gets more expensive if you get more fish. So far I have 6 fish coming and negotiating for more. So I am ruthless when I evaluate a fish.. he has to be worth me flying him halfway around the word. So I try to help others look for those little faults I didn't know about when I started. When you drop that $70 it need to be for more than a gut reaction of "he's pretty". He needs to bring sound form and balance to your breeding program or you are just going to waste time.


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## Setsuna

I can see that someone like crowntails ^^


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## LittleBlueFishlets

Basement Bettas said:


> ... I like to find a basically good fish so I can point out what is really good.. to train the eye to look for it. Then we get nit picky and show the faults. But these are usually really good fish.. so the flaws are minor. Again.. the idea is to get you used to SEEING those little flaws so you can evaluate fish for breeding on the internet and in your fish room.


Yes, your reviews are helpful for developing this skill. I see the gorgeous photo, then read your critique while studying the picture. If not for your comments, there's no way I would have noticed the anal fin or color separation, etc.

As for the red HM in the photo you posted: My first reaction was "Oooo! I want him!" :-D And I still want him - but from a show perspective, would the black outline be considered a fault? And if so, from a breeding perspective, how would you remove it? 



> How do you expect me to view a pet shop fish? Are they bad fish? No. They just are not show fish and really should not be submitted to this kind of standard.
> 
> Most fish anywhere are going to fall short in spread and condition. Then there are the stubby dorsal rays and the too short or bent tail rays messing up the edges. Then there are the color faults. As drop dead gorgeous as that red is I can still fault him. Stare at fish like this and compare them to others and you can start to see the basic form faults.. and then I can help you see the rest.


My mom adopted a rescue dog last week. She's going to be a great pet. But she's not a show dog. In fact, it wouldn't be fair to subject her to a critique against the breed standard. (I'm not a breeder, but even I can tell that her feet are flat, her eyes are too round, her body is too long, etc.) If I was a dog breeder, I wouldn't use my mom's rescue dog in my line. (Yes, she's spayed, if anyone is wondering.) That said, this dog will still be an excellent pet for my mom.

Likewise, petshop fish are wonderful pets. But they aren't show fish.... 



Basement Bettas said:


> Many people go to AB and get lost in all the color. If you are a serious breeder or even just starting out, you want to make good use of your money. A single fish can cost close to $70 to get to your doorstep.. and it gets more expensive if you get more fish. So far I have 6 fish coming and negotiating for more. So I am ruthless when I evaluate a fish.. he has to be worth me flying him halfway around the word. So I try to help others look for those little faults I didn't know about when I started. When you drop that $70 it need to be for more than a gut reaction of "he's pretty". He needs to bring sound form and balance to your breeding program or you are just going to waste time.


I understand this. Again, going back to dogs, I'm not a breeder but I wouldn't use a petshop quality dog if I wanted to breed a show-quality line. Yes, technically, I could weed out the flaws over time, but this would take too many generations. Instead, I'd look for the highest quality dog I could afford as the foundation for my line. And I'd want to give thought (before getting him) about how I'd be able to improve strengths and reduce flaws.

That said, if someone wants to take a petshop fish, and breed it with the goal of producing a quality line -- well, go for it! It'll probably take more generations, time and money to achieve a good result. It'll also require a REALLY in-depth understanding of breeding/genetics/etc - since the breeder would need to determine how to remove the flaws, improve strengths, etc. In the end, this breeder would probably end up spending more time, money and effort to produce a good line.... But going back to dog breeds - a good poodle is also a bad chihuahua. Someone had to start with one type of dog to produce another type. With regard only to form, it may be possible to take a 'bad crowntail,' and develop a 'good something else' (ie: a good crowntail line, or something entirely new). But whoever does it would need to have a clear vision of what they were trying to obtain, and not mind spending the time, effort and money to get there....

Just my thoughts. Hold on, I need to recharge my fire extinguisher, in case there are any flames.  But these are my thoughts - as a nonbreeder of any species. LOL


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## Basement Bettas

LittleBlueFishlets said:


> As for the red HM in the photo you posted: My first reaction was "Oooo! I want him!" :-D And I still want him - but from a show perspective, would the black outline be considered a fault? And if so, from a breeding perspective, how would you remove it?


Yes the black in the irid need to be remove. Just selecting the ones closest to your goal while keeping the form in line. He is heavy branched. Most good reds these days are. SO will have to watch breeding to keep length and avoid the RT affect. he is the old style dark red so you need to get rid of the black scale edges. He could also be a bit smoother.. almost has too much branching. So I'd only use an 8 ray girls instead of 16 to keep the branching but not over do it. I bought this male and he produced some outstanding fish. But his offspring never bred. Some local people have some drop dead gorgeous class winning red males as pets right now.

From show perspective yes it is a fault. Fish are judged against the standard but also against each other. They pull the worst faults first. So he could win depending on the competition.. or he could be one of the first pulled because the others were just that good.


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## Basement Bettas

Pet shop fish can be brought to show standards but it will take a LOT of time and dedication. And when you can spend a few dollars more it makes sense to take advantage of anothers' breeding that has the same goals in mind. Most pet shop fish are just bred with no goal in mind then sheer numbers or interesting colors. And even in a perfect HM those crazy colors are not really showable outside of form and finnage. So if form not there you still have a useless [for show/breeding] fish. When you have to cull hundreds of fish you start to understand the responsibility you owe the fish as a breeder. I have an Oscar but he only gets the sick or bad deformities. I can rehome even the deformed.. but I rehome a lot of fish. I am picky and few will stay in my fish room and have my time in the feeding and water changes. So I owe it to the fish in general to try to bring good fish into the world so they can find proper homes.


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