# yellow x orange = ?



## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

As you know, extended red is dominant meaning red crossed with yellow and orange will produce all phenotypically red bettas. But what about crossing the non-reds to each other? What do you get? Increased saturation? Red? Lol, its actually keeping me up at night...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

As far as I know; extended red or what people call super red, orange, and yellow will give you a good number of red cambodian like pattern.

TBH I don't know the theory nor the punnet square, but Yellow x orange will give you all 4 colors. If you prefer one from the other, you will need to selectively breed for that color. Non crosses would give you a majority of the said color but you should also get some cambodian like patterns.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

that throws me off a bit indjo, would you mind explaining that?

isnt the cambodian color pattern influenced by the black layer? how does that play into the red layer?

and all 4 colors = red, orange, yellow, and redloss?

that's quite interesting. would love to see records of such a spawn and try to figure out the percentages of each. it would be nice to intensify both orange and yellow without extended red, as i would prefer to work with recessives since they are easier to control.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

extended red is achieved by crossing a cherry red to a red cambodian that carries blond genes. When you breed a pair of super reds, you will always get that red cambodian pattern - some with more red than others. Only few will be true super reds.

Similarly, when crossing yellow or orange, the cambodian pattern will show up. And since these two colors are originally from red x cambodian crosses, you will also get red as well . . . the four colors I meant are cambodian, red, yellow, and orange. 

Since I never worked specifically with the above colors, I don't have any records of them. I usually cross yellow or orange to copper hoping to get gold - a metallic yellow or orange . . . which never happened. These crosses always gave me lots of cambodian patterns. 

By viewing other people's spawn results/sales, yellow, orange, and cambodian are often present. Thus I conclude these colors are always produced when breeding for yellow or orange. WHen breeding for super red, yellow and specially orange are often produced. Thus I assume those four colors are inseparable in certain conditions/pairings.

note:
to avoid confusion (specially on my part. lol). . . in my area cambodians are often grouped as "maskot" which includes irid sheen body with red fins (sort of grizzle). Thus I always refer to them as "red cambodian" meaning no irids on them. And I always say "cambodian pattern" because cambodians should have pale bodies but I'm referring to rather red or irid bodies.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

thanks for clarifying. makes more sense now!
maybe the reason why you arent finding a metallic yellow or orange from your coppers is possibly because you need to find a copper that carries the blonde gene?
or maybe the creation of metallic oranges and yellows occurs when you cross oranges and yellows with platinums? just thinking out loud.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Maybe, not sure. I gave up a long time ago.
I learned genetics the hard way - experience. At that time I didn't know much about genetic theories. I thought since platinum is opaque x copper, gold might be yellow/orange x copper. . . . I found out that wasn't the case.

Until this day the secret of what I call "true gold" hasn't been revealed . . . or I haven't found any definite info on it. But I noticed that a pale version of gold can be achieved (easier) from the red dragon line.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

mulled over it, have a hypothesis....

with red genes, i have a theory that Red-Loss, Wild type Red, and Extended Red are the main genes. Orange and Yellow Genes could be derivatives of the Extended Red (R). So, Orange would be R', and Yellow would be R''. The reason why I think this is because of how the offspring turn out when crossing an orange and yellow. Red bettas can come out of an orange x yellow cross, but we know that orange and yellow are recessive... so here's what i suppose.

Here is the Extended Red Gene (hypothetical):
3' --------------------------------5'
complete translation of this sequence yields the protein that causes red pigment.

Here is what i believe the Yellow Gene could look like:
3'----*-----------------------------5'

and here's what i believe the Orange Gene could look like:
3'----------------------*-----------5'

* notes a mutation event. - for all intents and purposes represent identical base pairs.

basically what we are looking at is that the mutation event causes the formation of the pigment protein to stop prematurely. the closer to the beginning of the gene, the more yellow, the further, more red--a gradient, if you will. 

what allows red to appear in yellow and orange spawns is the recombination of genes in the heterozygous individuals. 

1) 3'----*-----------------------------5' (yellow)

3'----------------------*-----------5' (orange)

2) 3'----*-----------------------------5'
X (cross over event)
3'----------------------*-----------5'

3) 3'----*-----------------*-----------5' (yellow')

3'-----------------------------------5' (red)

in the final result we see a pair of chromosomes, one that has two mutations, and one that is restored to a normal extended red gene. and because the extended red gene is dominant, that's the only one we see. i would theorize that the double mutation gene would produce more yellows--if the mutation truly disrupts the formation of pigment.

should try to DNA sequence this stuff so we can actually know instead of theorizing. hahaha. sorry to bore you if i did...

people of yellow x orange spawns, was this your outcome?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

bah. ascii fail.

as i was saying....


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Interesting theory/hypothesis.


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