# dead snails. everything else eaten.



## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay, so I've checked everything I can think of, and I have no idea why this keeps happening. 
I've got a huge algae problem. It's coating my tank walls, covering my plants, and my driftwood is almost entirely green. The tank gets about 8 hours of light a day, split into two four-hour bursts, and I have no idea what else to do short of giving up and pretending that I've got an algae-y tank on purpose. 
but that's not what I'm here about. 

My Beta's a murderer. 
I tried ghost shrimp, he ate the ghost shrimp. I'm not buying him Amano shrimp. They're expensive and he's just gonna eat them and get sick
There was a poorly-planned stint where I tried an Oto on the advice of a petsmart fish lady. The Oto went to live in my LFS' plant tank after he got so done with my Betta's issues that he went carnivorous and started chasing my betta around the tank like he thought he was a tiny shark or something.

I figured snails. They're sturdy. They're armored. They can't possibly move fast enough to attack Altair or freak him out. Mystery snails are hardy little things, if Altair the Incredibly Accident Prone Betta can survive me, a snail can, right?

The first one lasted about two weeks. After the second water change with it in there I noticed it was falling a lot, it stopped moving and when I pulled it out of the water it just kinda hung out of its shell like a sad dead thing.
I freaked, checked the water levels (everything's fine, PH 7.5 Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate some tiny number between 0 and 5, temp at ~73F it's a five gallon planted, for good measure because someone's gonna ask) 
There's still enough algae in the tank to feed a small snaily army, though the first little guy did make quite a dent, so I went back to the LFS to talk to their invertebrates guy, we both made puzzled faces over the oddly mysterious death of the snail, and I grabbed another one because algae. in my tank. do not want. 

That was about three-four days ago, and snail#2 is dead. He made some halfhearted attempt to clean one side of the tank, crawled up on the sponge filter, and now three days later, I pulled him out and he's drooping out of his shell like a sad dead thing. 

So my question is, is my betta eating their eyestalks or something? Are they just too stupid to find the algae that's everywhere and starving to death? Do I have the wrong kind of thing to eat the wrong kind of algae _again_? Should I just give up on finding something that will eat this algae and peacefully coexist with my betta and resign myself to a florescent yellow-green tank of doom?


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Some snails are just bad from the start. They may have been at the store for a while so they just get too far gone. Try waiting to buy another snail or go someplace else. My boyfriend had a betta that would flare at nerites and kept biting tem, but they outlived the betta. Therefore, I don't think that your betta is killing the snails. But, does your betta constantly flare or try to nip at the snails? Also, I would suggest getting a nerite. They're better algae eaters than mystery snails, but if you can't find some, then even pond snails will do. I've had a 10g cleaned of algae (although it took a while xD) with pond snails. A lot of people consider them as pests, but I don't.

Anyways, you could also try to buy more plants and/or reduce the photoperiod. Then the plants will compete for the nutrients in the water and the algae will slowly start to die off. Since your photoperiod is 8 hours, I would do 4 2-hour bursts. 2 hours on, 2 hours off, 4 times a day. Try to get the algae off your plants, but if they die, jut start over. Since you have such a massive problem, I would try to figure out what type of algae it is (sounds like black bush algae to me) and figure out what eats it. I would go with nerite snails, but only snails, since your betta eats shrimp. Either that it do a complete black out, which means killing your algae and plants. Then you get to start over with new plants. But, it's your choice. I've never done a black out, since I didn't want to kill the $20 worth of plants that I just got. lol

I will admit, I DIED laughing at the oto situation. Mine is so peaceful and it scared to DEATH of my RCS. Here's the thing, he's twice the size of the shrimp! xD


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm afraid to reduce the photoperiod even more than I have already, but I'm going to be adding root tabs once they come in to hopefully encourage the plants I've already got to grow a bit. I'd been adding flourish excel, but my schedule's so hectic lately I kept forgetting to add it in.

He actually didn't seem bother the snails at all, but he's so sneaky I wouldn't put anything past the little turd. Do nerites breed quickly/at all? one of the reasons I was set on a mystery snail was because they didn't breed. I don't have any other tanks to put them in and I'd feel bad killing them if the population exploded, which is why I've been avoiding pond snails. The other thing is I can't find nerites anywhere, so I'd have to order them.
I might check the local petsmart and look at their mystery snails. I'd personally rather go to the petco, since they normally have really healthy stock, but I think they just hired a new fish guy or fired the old one because I was in there the other day and all their snails are dead, and so were half the betas in their little cups :< it was really sad, and I don't think I'm going back there for a while.

It looks like a mixture of green dust algae, brown diatoms on the plants and a tiny patch of some carpety really intensely colored emerald blue-green thing that I can't for the life of me identify. nothing that looks like BBA.
Honestly I might just do a blackout at this point, despite the fact I really really don't want to think about replacing and replanting all these plants >.< especially the planting. It took me three days and a complete replanting two weeks later to get the plants in a vaguely correct configuration when I set the tank up. But I want to be sure that this isn't just gonna happen again when I inevitably miss a water change.


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Nerite require saltwater/brackish water to breed, but they will lay eggs (fertilized or not). They provide a good snack for the betta.

I heard that fertilizers can actually promote more algae growth, so idk ... :/

And, I understand the bettas. I have room, but I ended up getting a calico fantail goldfish instead. >.< it was cheaper than the bettas and I already have 3 goldfish. xD 

Anyways, tinker around with some stuff and hope for the best, I guess. :/


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Nerites are great and it's hard for them to breed in freshwater. I have an olive and a tiger nerite in my sorority and none of the females have attacked them (they are small, I think much smaller than Mystery snails). My white female is mesmerized by the tiger nerite, lol. She will go right up close to it and stare it down if it's moving, it's hilarious. Anyways, as for the algae problem, I'm no expert. I would say to add in some fast growing stem plants like hornwort (I can't keep that stuff alive though, maybe you'd have better luck), pennywort, cabomba or maybe some fast spreading floaters like salvinia, duckweed, etc. All I know is algae problems are caused by an imbalance in photoperiod and nutrients. My Amano shrimp ate all my brown algae in a week but if you're afraid your betta will eat them then I wouldn't try it. Try to manually remove as much algae as possible and hopefully someone else has some more information for you here.


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

I have great luck with hornwort and I would highly suggest that, moneywort, and rotala rotundifolia. They all grow quickly and suck up nutrients. Even java moss helps!


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

The algae ate my java moss ;~;
right now I've got some sickly water wisteria, brown wendtii that's spreading surprisingly quickly, lugeria repens that keeps getting taller and not much else, and a tiny patch of baby's tears that was supposed to have spread into groundcover by now but I think also got eaten by the algae. 

I stopped at the local petsmart and the girl there seemed to actually know what she was talking about for once. I got one of their snails and it seems to be a lot livlier even in the bag than the two I got from my LFS, so maybe my LFS just has a bad batch of snails? It's acclimating now, so cross your fingers. 
they also have a much better return policy than the LFS, so even if things go sour at least I'll get my money back.....

EDIT: now I have a bit of a dilemma. The gold snail is in the tank now and seems to be moving around quite a bit, I went to check on blue snail#2 who I'd left on the driftwood just in case he was alive, and he's moved a tiny bit and his 'trap door' is now tightly shut instead of hanging out of his shell like a sad dead thing. he had a bit of white fluffy something peeking out of his shell when I thought he was dead, and I still think he's dying, but now I feel like I should be trying to save him. thoughts?


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Trade him in. I'm not sure on how to save snails. Still, "sad dead thing" is all I'm seeing whenever you post! xD most of my algae got eaten by GHA. It sucks ... Honestly, I would try to get an oto, instead of a snail. Not all otos are sinister like your last one. lol either that or a nerite (which petsmart carries).


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

OTL I feel like 'sad dead thing' is a thing that happens far too often in my tank. 
It's two days too late to return or trade him in, esp since I don't think he's actually dead yet, just dying. My LFS has a 48 hour return policy for live fish and invertebrates 
The gold mystery snail seems to be quite happy in his new home. He's atacking that patch of Unidentified Vibrant Green Fuzz right now. 

I still don't know what to do with the sickly blue dude though. he's not dead yet, seems cruel to flush him, but I don't like that fuzzy white bit that was sticking out of his shell, and I definately don't want to leave him in the tank until I'm sure. 

I know that an Oto would be best for cleaning up the diatoms and all, but most people I've talked to say that they prefer to school with at least two others, and I don't think a 5gal has room for that....
Besides, the reason the other one went evil was my betta was harassing it so much it couldn't eat.


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

Don't some people put Marimo moss balls (which are actually algae) in the tank because they starve other algae? Or am I making that up?


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh wow ... well, I keep mine single in a 10g. If I buy anymore, they just get sick due to stress and they die. I kept a pair for a year, but that was it. The other lived for another half a year and died.

Anyways, Russell, you're right. They actually have the moss balls at petsmart, but they're about $7 for a tiny thing. :S


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## DJay (Apr 17, 2013)

Kiara1125 said:


> Oh wow ... well, I keep mine single in a 10g. If I buy anymore, they just get sick due to stress and they die. I kept a pair for a year, but that was it. The other lived for another half a year and died.
> 
> Anyways, Russell, you're right. They actually have the moss balls at petsmart, but they're about $7 for a tiny thing. :S


Haha yea I know the moss balls are expensive but hey do help with the algae and they also absorb some bad stuff in the water. I got one and loved it since! Also they grow quite a bit if kept properly so it won't be a tiny thing forever. I would invest in one


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## Namialus (Jul 9, 2013)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> Don't some people put Marimo moss balls (which are actually algae) in the tank because they starve other algae? Or am I making that up?


You're not making it up, I've heard of that as well. It's said to take the nutrients in the tank for itself which limits the growth of other algae, what with the limited amount of nutrients.


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Nothing wrong with algae, it keeps your water parameters perfect 

i would check the hardness of your water, when snails shut their doors and go on a hiatus, it could be possible that they hate your water. i had a perfect tank once. the fish thrived, but all the snails will just shut their doors, stop moving and die off. Im talking about "pest" snails. eventually after I added calcium to the water, the ones tht were stil alive decided to come back to life again....

you also mentioned that you bought baby tears. it most likely died due to lack of light. if ur Ludwigia is getting leggy then it is a sign that there is not enough light in the tank. I'm not sure about your lighting setup, but lack of light often kills plants , regardless of photo period. the dead plant then releases nutrients when they break down an become food for algae....

just some guestimates


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

In my experience, Dwarf Baby Tears are not forgiving plants and without CO2 and the proper lighting they go kaput.

Also, really soft water can be the death knell for snails and other inverts.


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

It also depends on what the plant is used to. I put myrio green, bacopa caroliniana, rotala rotundifolia, java fern, a melon sword, and java moss in my 20gL. Everything died (except for the moss) due to too *much* light. I had that rotala in a 10g for two years and it took over half the tank, then it all died in a month. You really have to be careful with plants. I have ALL of my plants growing in my 10g right now. I'm honestly not even planning to put it in my 20. The only things in the 20 are the moss, and some new water sprite and hornwort. That tank now has NO light and the plants are growing fine.

Anyways, I had TERRIBLE BBA where I literally scrapped all my plants and got new stuff. It took a whole weekend for me to clean that tank how I wanted to, then it took me another week to put the plants on how I wanted them. I usually don't fertilize. But I have a homemade red clay fert with slow release capsules in it filled with osmocote. Hopefully it'll do well, yes?

Still, I do hope for the best with your tank! Try and buy some hardy plants that will grow nicely, such as a sword or crypt. I also like rotala, bacopa varieties, and cabomba.


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

I've got one 13w daylight CFL in a jury-rigged desk lamp for my lighting solution. Depending on who I ask it's either mid or low-light? 
My tank is a really obnoxious, bizarre shape that's impossible to find a hood for, and the light it came with was some teeny LED thing, so Desk lamp. 
Since the algae bloom that started all this, I think my lugeria has stopped growing though :X hopefully between the ferts coming in tomorrow and the snail that so far seems to be much happier in the tank than the others, at least that and the wisteria will come back a little. 
or even just my java moss :< I really liked the java moss.

RE: water hardness though. Could the adjustment period have been what killed them? The local water is super hard, but I think the LFS that I got my dead!snails from uses reverse-osmosis purified water for their tanks, which I really highly doubt petco does, and I certainly don't


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

hmm, how big is your tank? i dont recommend fertilizers right now... especially if your plants are struggling to survive. but maybe try a bit of seachem excel. Sometimes it kills algae....


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

It's a 5 gallon. I was using excel for a few weeks, but I didn't see much improvement, and with my schedule it's nearly impossible to remember to add it daily so I stopped. (also only have the one pipette which is really annoying when I have like four things that all need one. I need to fix that one of these days)


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

That's definitely too much light. lol I was using two 9w CFLs on a 20gL and I got BAD algae. I would definitely lower it. They have 7w T12 lights at Menard's for $3. Sound good?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

15w for a 5 gallon isnt too bad. I have a 23w on my 1 gallon  

there's likely a dis balance in water chemistry that's causing the algae... I would add more floating plants if possible....


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

It's gotta be something that fits a standard lightbulb socket though, unless I want to go searching for a whole new fixture again :/ I really wish I'd just gotten like, a normal shaped tank instead of this corner-oriented illegitimate offspring of a trapezoid and a bowfront monstrosity.


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh, well I guess it varies and depends on the tank, huh? You could go with some duckweed or amazon frogbit.

Also, do you mean you're looking for the screw in bulbs? I only have those and there are actually screw to pin adapters for $4 on amazon. But, there's different types so I wouldn't suggest that. lol


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Marimo moss ball sounds like a good idea. I had a small case of green algae that took over the surface of the water in my 5.5 gallon and so I added in an aeration stone to move the surface around a bit and disturb it. It didn't grow there ever again. I also had a Fluval compact fluorescent light over it which I think is 13w or something.


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

OKay Update. 
The new snail I got from petsmart was really energetic and active, far more active than the two blue mysteries that I got from my LFS, and I was hoping that it'd survive, but now it's hiding in its shell, hasn't moved for a few days and is producing stress slime. I'm hoping it's not quite dead yet, but I don't know why it's stressed. 
Water params are still fine, I've added a couple of ghost shrimp in the hopes that my betta would chase those instead of trying to nip bits off the snail, and I put a root tab in to help the plants but those are the only two things that have changed. Tank temp is still stable at 75F, water is hard but the same water that has been in the tank all along. I'm baffled, the petsmart fish lady is baffled (to be fair, that's not hard) and the guys at the LFS are all baffled as well. I think I've eliminated a poor supply, and I think I've eliminated shock from the transfer (the last two were drip acclimated for extra paranoia) I don't know what to try next short of completely breaking down the tank and replanting it, which I really really don't have time or money for >.<
I just feel really bad for this last snail. It seemed so active and healthy.


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

Do you add any fertilizers to the tank? Copper can be very toxic to snails. I'm really at a loss for what could be happening to your poor snails


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

Just a root tab (seachem flourish) that I added recently, after the first two. Everything I read said that it should be fine with the snails. Even that though I only added after the first two died.


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

[Maybe] Update?: The snail's still alive, but its shell looks very thin around the rim with a wide band of transparent shell. I'd say it's new growth if it didn't look like waaay too wide a band. Can a snail _lose_ mass in its shell?


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

yes, if your water is too soft or acidic. it generally shows up as crater like spots in the shell... it's called pitting...


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## Viva (Oct 18, 2012)

I have Flourish root tabs in both tanks and all my snails are doing fine which include assassins snails, pond snails (used to have until the assassins ate them all), ramshorns (used to have until the assassins ate them all, trumpet and nerites. I've heard copper can be very toxic to snails but there isn't much in the root tabs (there might not be any, I can't remember). Any fish medications are toxic too.


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

there is a very very small amount. like .001% or something is copper. 

@aokashi: My water comes from a limestone aquifer, so it's pretty hard. I don't have a test for that though, so I can't give an exact number. My water's PH holds steady at around 7.6 (it's right in between the two tests. normal gives a higher than 7.6 reading and high range gives a lower than 7.4 reading, so I tend to just assume it's around 7.6) so it's not too acidic either. 
The loss(?) doesn't look like pitting or erosion, it's just smooth and clear and there's a lot of it. If it is new growth and not shell loss then it's putting out a LOT of new growth very, very quickly.


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

Prospit's moving! 
it was sitting on its back moving in and out of its shell very slowly for most of the day, and this evening I took a chance and righted it, and its now climbing slowly but steadily up the tank wall. The only thing concerning me is I don't see any antenae. could Altair have eaten them off?


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## Kiara1125 (Feb 1, 2011)

They don't always have their antennas out. Mine like to Carl with them retracted, barely poking out, or even on the sides of the body. I wouldn't worry too much, but just keep a lookout.


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## Esahc (Mar 27, 2013)

crossposting from here to get any second opinions.

Looks like it's time to break out the hospital tank again, then. I'll get that set up tomorrow morning (move some plants and gravel over from the main tank should be okay?), and hopefully it's a water thing or something else fixable that isn't my little turd of a betta and I won't end up needing to set up a whole new tank a lot earlier than I'd wanted to. >.< 
I've got planning for a 10-20-gal community in the works but my eta for it was october/december when my work season gets a break and I've time to do things before finals....but if need be and Prospit can hold on for another month-and-a-bit, though, I might be able to scrape something together before that...

Also going to try and remember to stop by the store tomorrow morning and grab some source of calcium.

The last couple of days, the snail has been a little more active, I've been crumbling algae wafers and dropping them in with a couple of sinking pellets to distract the betta(he ends up rolling around in the gravel trying to fight them, the fool), and I wonder if that might have made a difference, but last night and today, they (he/she/it how do you even figure that out.) have been back to lethargic sulking in the hollow under the driftwood.


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