# What would the offspring be



## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

Soo, i have a female Fancy copper, but the red is faded/not strong so i want to fix the genetic, i m planning to breed her with super red . What would the offspring/F1 be?? Will i success?


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## hiprasojo (Sep 21, 2020)

Lah..Indonesia nih wkwk
anyway this is international forum, so i’ll use my english which is not grammatically correct but you’ll get the idea.

first of all both fish carries red trait. Red is dominant trait. Big chance that the fries will also carry red trait. Then there’s fin trait. Fancy copper is short fin. Short fin is recessive trait. But then again its copper, copper trait used to be recessive but now equally dominant because copper line has been cross breed so much by breeders.

Which super red line are we talking about? Plakats? Halfmoons?
FC (short fin) x PK (short fin) = short fin PK 
FC (short fin) x HM (long fin) = 50:50 (i think) some of the fry will carry short fin gene, the other carry long tail gene

Fish with dominant trait take 1-2 generations of breeding to get the color scheme you want, while with recessive or partially dominant trait will take 2 or more generations (e.g. yellows, blacks, double tail). There’s no exact calculation here. Just breed them and we’ll see from there. Nature always find its way. Good luck!


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

Wkkwkwkwk same brooo,


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

Wkwk, have any FB?. I have so many question


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## hiprasojo (Sep 21, 2020)

Bettaind said:


> Wkwk, have any FB?. I have so many question


Dude, people my age dont use FB anymore. Lol. Post your questions here, hopefully I can help you with my limited knowledge and so that other members can give their insights too.

Anyway, which city are you from?


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

Bro , i learn from some refeenc , it tells me that there is color layer , which in the red layer there are some genotipe like extended red, coded(Er), orange, coded (nr2nr2), red loss, coded(Rl) . If i breed the male who carries extended red (Er_) and female who carries red loss (Rl_) . Will The offspring carry Er_Rl_ ? Then what trait Will be expressed?. Im


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

How to tell what gene Will be expressed, that is the conclusion wkkwkwkwk, wasallam terimakasih


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## hiprasojo (Sep 21, 2020)

Bettaind said:


> Bro , i learn from some refeenc , it tells me that there is color layer , which in the red layer there are some genotipe like extended red, coded(Er), orange, coded (nr2nr2), red loss, coded(Rl) . If i breed the male who carries extended red (Er_) and female who carries red loss (Rl_) . Will The offspring carry Er_Rl_ ? Then what trait Will be expressed?. Im


Whoa..sorry, dude. that is some next level stuff. I don’t get that. You study biology? try search for punnet square calculator. All I know is just basic gene traits plus our breeders back home excessively cross breed their fish so it’s really hard to get the pure gene traits


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

hiprasojo said:


> Whoa..sorry, dude. that is some next level stuff. I don’t get that. You study biology? try search for punnet square calculator. All I know is just basic gene traits plus our breeders back home excessively cross breed their fish so it’s really hard to get the pure gene traits


Then can u explain me this*, thx in advance*


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)




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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

So you guys know in the future. If you tap on your profile picture it drops down a bar with options, the conversation tab is like private conversation with other members if you would like. 🤘🏻


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## X skully X (Mar 17, 2020)

@indjo are you familiar with the red loss gene? I wish I could help @Bettaind I am still trying to learn this myself.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Welcome to the forum.
Posting publicly will give you more answers based on different experiences. Thus giving you more options to choose from. 

Please use English. Post with other languages will be removed.

I need to know what you mean by fancy copper. I see many call marbles that carry dragon genes as "copper". Could you please post pictures of the pair.

I'm not familiar with red loss. I have never experienced red loss. All I know is that it causes red to fade away, making the fish look colorless and dull.

Betta color is divided into layers. Red, often said to be the second layer, may contain other genes; red (to my knowledge is extended red), red loss, non red (turns red into yellow or orange). NOT all red carry all those genes.

Those refered to as extended red or some call super red are genetically in the least: red, cambodian, blonde. It should lack red loss and NR genes.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> Posting publicly will give you more answers based on different experiences. Thus giving you more options to choose from.
> 
> Please use English. Post with other languages will be removed.
> ...


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> Posting publicly will give you more answers based on different experiences. Thus giving you more options to choose from.
> 
> Please use English. Post with other languages will be removed.
> ...


Thx for your answer, in short, i want to now how to tell what gene is expressed. As example, my male carries dominant super red gene and my female carries dominant red loss gene, what gene Will be expressed. Those are dominant. What i know is the dominant gene is always expressed . I really misunderstand about recessive and dominant


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

As you see, the red layer of my fish looks like cellophane layer, how to fix the red layer in order to make the red layer looks like super red, thx in advanced


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## hiprasojo (Sep 21, 2020)

Bettaind said:


> As you see, the red layer of my fish looks like cellophane layer, how to fix the red layer in order to make the red layer looks like super red, thx in advanced


Will this or this gives you any clue?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

First of all we have to agree on color terms we use.

The above picture is not a copper. Copper lines are metallic group colors. They look grey/steel (abu/perak - in case you don't understand what I mean)- with a tint of red gives them that copper (tembaga) look. Coppers are genetically steel blue base. If crossed to cambodian, they may produce various irid-cambodian line colors such as platinum/white. But once they lose that grey/steel color, they are no longer coppers . . . In my opinion.

And personally, I wouldn't call that a fancy which to my understanding is a combo that doesn't normally appear from regular color crosses. The color combo is more probable if there are marble genes.

That color is a common combo that appears if you pair irid cambodian line colors like grizzle, pastel, etc to a cellophane. Your fish doesn't suggest, it carries red genes or at least not enough to physically appear. In other words, I doubt your fish carries red loss.

Do you, by any chance, know her genetic background. Or maybe what her parents look like? That should give you better understanding about what genes she carries.
. . . . . .

You didn't post pictures of your red fish.
Regular red often carries black genes thus look darker and known as cherry red. Paired to red cambodian and breeding out the black genes or enhancing blonde genes, you get extended red - a bright lighter shade of red.

If you pair the above female with red, you will probably lose "clean" red. If you do produce red, it will carry irids (turquoise, steel blue, royal blue). You will most likely produce some cambodian line colors.

BTW, some people believe cellophane is a color line of its own. My experiences led me to believe it is from the cambodian line.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> First of all we have to agree on color terms we use.
> 
> The above picture is not a copper. Copper lines are metallic group colors. They look grey/steel (abu/perak - in case you don't understand what I mean)- with a tint of red gives them that copper (tembaga) look. Coppers are genetically steel blue base. If crossed to cambodian, they may produce various irid-cambodian line colors such as platinum/white. But once they lose that grey/steel color, they are no longer coppers . . . In my opinion.
> 
> ...


What genes does the fish have?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I see red, black, probably dragon. I'm not sure of the commercial name though as I don't keep up with new names. And I'm not sure if he carries marble ( you can't see them)

Do you know what his siblings look like. That should also give you an idea on the genes he carries.

I doubt if you can produce extended red from your pair (your pictures). They carry too many impurities.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

Bro if i have fish with the gene dominant red and dominant non red, what Will be expressed, i really need to understand about recessive and dominant


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Red is dominant over NR. So if you were to cross them, you will probably mainly produce red in F1. If you breed further, you can produce NR colors


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Red is dominant over NR. So if you were to cross them, you will probably mainly produce red in F1. If you breed further, you can produce NR colors


How do u know if red is dominant over nr


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Base color is always dominant over its line color. The more complex the genetic coding, the more recessive it becomes.

Example: 
Copper has irid base color. If crossed to irids, it will mainly produce irids in F1.

Opaque white is basically irid x cambodian but takes several generations to create because you need to establish the opaque. So it is very recessive.

NR is basically red. But you need other genes to bring it out. Usually cambodian is used. The trick is introducing black to enhance the color BUT establishing blonde genes to suppress black. Only then will you have a bright NR. . . . recessive towards red


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettaind said:


> How do u know if red is dominant over nr


Experience and reading articles on betta color genetics


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Experience and reading articles on betta color genetics


So basically, recessive is dominant but it s not so dominant?.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

What do you mean?
Recessive is recessive but it you have a pair of recessive genes, it will physically show.

Read up on mendellian theory and punnet square equation


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> What do you mean?
> Recessive is recessive but it you have a pair of recessive genes, it will physically show.
> 
> Read up on mendellian theory and punnet square equation


Good morning , 
Bro one question, if i breed dragon genetic to a super red genetic, Will the offspring be like the before photo?. How much generations does it take . Pls answer in punnet square , sorry for wasting your time, thx for your answer


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

No question wastes anybody's time. The purpose of a Forum is to educate that's why we encourage members to keep discussions in the Forum. So ask away.

Genetics, to me, have never been easy to explain.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

RussellTheShihTzu said:


> No question wastes anybody's time so ask away. The purpose of a Forum is to educate that's why we encourage members to keep discussions in the Forum. So ask away.
> 
> Genetics, to me, have never been easy to explain.


Sorry bro, but ITS our culture, the way we ask ,


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## RussellTheShihTzu (Mar 19, 2013)

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean. All I did was encourage you to ask questions in response to:



> sorry for wasting your time, thx for your answer


My point was you are not wasting anyone's time by asking questions.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettaind said:


> Good morning ,
> Bro one question, if i breed dragon genetic to a super red genetic, Will the offspring be like the before photo?. How much generations does it take . Pls answer in punnet square , sorry for wasting your time, thx for your answer


Sorry, I cant answer this question, especially using the Punnet Square. You see there are actually NO DRAGON genes. The dragon feature is made up of combination of genes (too complicated to explain).

Super red too is a combination of genes. In other words you will be mixing two complex genetic make ups.

And above all, I have never tried such pairing. I've only read about other people's experience.

Yes, you could eventually create your desired pattern. How many generations depends on whether you paired the right siblings or not. But theoretically speaking, you should be able to create the mutation in 4-5 generations.

IMO, to make life easier, use one parent that already carries the pattern. If you want more towards dragon, pair to a red dragon. Otherwise, pair to a super red.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Sorry, I cant answer this question, especially using the Punnet Square. You see there are actually NO DRAGON genes. The dragon feature is made up of combination of genes (too complicated to explain).
> 
> Super red too is a combination of genes. In other words you will be mixing two complex genetic make ups.
> 
> ...


Bro is fancy line carrying marble?


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Sorry, I cant answer this question, especially using the Punnet Square. You see there are actually NO DRAGON genes. The dragon feature is made up of combination of genes (too complicated to explain).
> 
> Super red too is a combination of genes. In other words you will be mixing two complex genetic make ups.
> 
> ...


Soooo bro,, how to get that kind of Betta bro, what should i breed?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettaind said:


> Bro is fancy line carrying marble?


IMO, yes. And the color pattern should also be different. Otherwise it's just a regular multi color.



Bettaind said:


> Soooo bro,, how to get that kind of Betta bro, what should i breed?


You have the pattern. Try crossing to
1. Super red
2. Red dragon

If both produce similar patterns, cross them. Otherwise, inbreed.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> IMO, yes. And the color pattern should also be different. Otherwise it's just a regular multi color.
> 
> 
> You have the pattern. Try crossing to
> ...


From what i know, multicolor also have marble gene


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Often yes, especially today's multis


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Often yes, especially today's multis


So multicolor in your opinion, Betta that have 2 colors?


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> Often yes, especially today's multis


Like black dragon?


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettaind said:


> Like black dragon?


No. Regular dragons (red drgn, yellow drgn, black drgn, and so on) are not marble based. However you can always add marble to the line to create new combos.

By multi colors I meant koi, candy, samurai, and all those new names. Those are marbles. I'm not sure if any breeder has succeeded breeding out the marble genes from those lines.


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> No. Regular dragons (red drgn, yellow drgn, black drgn, and so on) are not marble based. However you can always add marble to the line to create new combos.
> 
> By multi colors I meant koi, candy, samurai, and all those new names. Those are marbles. I'm not sure if any breeder has succeeded breeding out the marble genes from those lines.


Samurai is a marble? What i meant is, is the regular dragon part of the multicolor?


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

indjo said:


> No. Regular dragons (red drgn, yellow drgn, black drgn, and so on) are not marble based. However you can always add marble to the line to create new combos.
> 
> By multi colors I meant koi, candy, samurai, and all those new names. Those are marbles. I'm not sure if any breeder has succeeded breeding out the marble genes from those lines.


What crossing is this betta


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)

[QUOTE="Bettaind, po


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## Bettaind (Sep 26, 2020)




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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Bettaind said:


> Samurai is a marble? What i meant is, is the regular dragon part of the multicolor?


TBH, I don't know what samurai looks like. And don't know if they are actually marbles or not. I was just spurting out new names that came up in my head. To my knowledge those new names (I saw) were mostly marbles.

I disagree how people name changing colors thus lost interest in keeping up with new names - which often, IMO, does not reflect their genetic make up


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