# First time breeding: Advice needed on conditioning and my pair



## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Hi everyone! 

So I've been creeping on this forum for awhile and I finally decided to take the plunge and try my hand at breeding bettas. I selected a pair off of aquabid and I was just wondering what everyone thought of them. To be honest I don't really have a specific goal in mind. This is attempt is mostly to experience first hand how breeding works and get an idea how how color and form is passed down to the spawn before I invested more money on an imported pair. 

The pair are 3 and a half months old siblings. The mother was a blue and pink red with white trim halfmoon and the father was blue with blue steel halfmoon. (Is 3 1/2 months too young to breed them? Should I wait until they're a little older?) I'm hoping to get a lot of shades of blue out of the spawn.

Both arrived safe and sound two days ago. The male looks like the picture, (hope I attached it right and everyone cans see what I'm talking about haha) he didn't chew his fins or anything which I was really happy about. The female however was so stressed out, poor thing. She arrived almost completely white, although her fins have grown out and are not tattered like in the picture. She's slowly gaining back her color and doing great, but it'll prob be another day or two before her colors are as vibrant in the picture.

My question is what should I feed them to condition them? I was planning on giving them another week or so to adjust to their new homes before beginning but I just wanted to stock up in the mean time. I have hikari bloodworms which I feed my fancy goldfish, so I was planning on giving it to the bettas as well but I was wondering what other types of frozen food everyone else fed their bettas, how often/how much etc. I was also wondering if anyone fed their bettas live food. I know it's largely frowned upon in the goldfish community because live food can introduce parasites and diseases but I wasn't sure if the same theory held up for bettas as well or if they were a little more resilient to it? Basically any help/advice is greatly appreciated. :-D

My next question is on shipping. I live in NJ so ideally when this spawn matures it'll be towards the end of the winter. Does anyone ship fish during the winter, provided it's express and with a heat pack? I just want to start thinking about what I'm going to do with the spawn when it matures. 

Thanks!


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## VictorP (Jun 5, 2012)

This pair is very nice! Also do you know their genetic background? They look to have some dt genes in them. They have above average form as well.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks! I'm really happy you think that they have good form. I don't know about their genetic background. I just asked about their parents and the breeder didn't mention that either were double tails so I just assumed they were both halfmoons. Double tails is a recessive trait so if they do carry the trait it will show up in some of their spawns, correct?


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## BettaHeart (Jan 2, 2011)

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=116065

this thread helps ^^^


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## laynisample (Sep 10, 2012)

I don't know about shipping during the winter... I would personally wait until mid winter to breed them so they could be shipped a little later. If you have any culls you don't want, I'd take one.  I don't plan on breeding until way down the road, but I can't wait to see the babies those two have.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Yeah, you're right. Ill prob wait until mid December so then I'd be shipping the end of march beginning of April which is prob better  I still have a few more things to buy before I'm completely ready to spawn. Who knew there's so many little things to buy that add up to be so much  

When I bred I'm gonna make a spawn log so feel free to follow along and of course you can have dibs on one or a pair if you were ready to breed at that point. I'd actually prefer to sell to people off of this forum/aqua bid cause I feel like they'd take better care of the betta then just unloading them at the pet store. So I'm glad you're already showing interest in their spawn


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## laynisample (Sep 10, 2012)

lol I don't think my college would appreciate a betta breeding facility in my dorm...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

@Flyingpony: I would not breed them. Notice the female has a bent top line. IT may become worse if you bred the two - they show signs of rose tail which often carries defects. I would pair the male to a non related delta tail - specifically a delta that has pointy caudal edges. Or to a non related 4 ray HM with pointy edged caudal. You should produce some nice HM that you could breed further.

I'd also wait until they are at least 5 months or so. You will have a better survival rate ... and more mature male. BTW the male has exceptionally wide ventrals - absolutely gorgeous. Congrats.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

I knew the male bordered on being a rosetail and that this can introduce problems with the fry but I thought the female was ok. If I were to breed them do you think the fry would have too many problems? Or rather would their flaws be noticable to the untrained eye? I don't plan on showing them ever really but at the same time I don't want to spend a lot of time and money on a fry that has hugely noticeable flaws.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm not concerned about their form, actually. But rather on potential genetic defects. If you know there were no defected siblings, you can try breeding them. But if even one showed physical defect, it's best not to breed them. Once the defected genes get into their line, it's hard to breed out. Even if you took a perfectly healthy individual out of the batch and crossed it to an unrelated betta, you will still have defected genes. I'd rather stay away from unknown rose background (in terms of rose effect).

If your male is healthy and crossed to an unrelated female, he may produce some gorgeous fry. But if he still produces unhealthy fry, I suggest you retire him and cull ALL of the fry. If they turn out healthy and you want to create roses, simply inbreed the excessive ray siblings. But then breed out again - best not to inbreed roses.

I'm not saying that he won't produce gorgeous fry with his sibling. BUT he will also (possibly) spread defective genes which will be carried for generations. Some people don't care about ... say the 50% unhealthy fry and cull them .... take the gorgeous formed fry and sell them. IMO it's irresponsible to distribute defects. . . . . . just my opinion.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Ohh. I understand what you mean now. That's rather disappointing. I guess I should have researched them a little better before purchase. I didn't know rosetails were that bad. On a scale of 1-10 how bad do you think the male is? If he's really bad I guess I won't breed him at all even to another female. I wouldn't want to create fry that were defected.


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## VictorP (Jun 5, 2012)

The male is probably a 5


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks for all your help and quick response  

I've been reading up a lot on rosetails and as far as my meager knowledge can tell, he doesn't have any of the visual deformities, aside from the obvious rosetail. From your ranking of him and my research I would say he's a moderate which means he's slightly safer to breed then an extreme one. I think I'm going to attempt to breed him anyway, I'm just going to look for a better female who will hopefully correct (most) of the possible deformities that may arise. I'm going to take indjo's advice and look for a delta tail. I think that may be the best choice and a little safer then choosing another female halfmoon.

I'll post the possible choices here when I find them and if either of you would be able to critique them I would REALLY appreciate it.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

I know it's hard to tell from the picture but do either of these females look promising? I'm requesting better pictures from the breeder. There are hardly any deltas for sale at all on aquabid or eBay and I can't think of anywhere else to look for them :/

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettasd&1351018211


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

The problem with rose tails is that they might not show any defects. Take this male as an example;









in your opinion, how rose is this male? Physically, he doesn't look that bad of a rose. But it was this male that started my rose problems for generations. And due to lack of knowledge on roses at the time, I added more rose genes and made it worse.

If I have to grade the "rose-ing" I'd give your male a 5 - 7. His small caudal and the female's form may suggest he carries defected genes. But that's just a guess. He may not carry the bad genes - considering that breeders now know rose potential thus would probably not inbreed them. 

Females: look at rose female's dorsal. It opens like a fan. That's what you're looking for. The second female's dorsal leans to the back. Further her wide caudal suggests that she may have multiple rays which would add to the rose-ing. But a better picture would help - better judgement.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

I understand what you mean. I think I'm just going to try to breed out a generation and see where that takes me. Hopefully he doesn't carry the defected genes but if he does ill retire him and look for another pair. 

Sorry to be a bother but could you tell me what you think of these two? Haha it's so hard to find something decent when you're actually looking for it. These are both halfmoons. I like the first one the best but its really hard for me to tell what's a good form and what isn't. Everything looks the same to me.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

It wouldn't let me upload the second one in the same post.


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## Maddybelle (Sep 29, 2012)

The first one has a bumpy topline, and she seems kinda skinny to me. Her branching is uneven, and her dorsal is very small.
The second one has a much better body, nice and plump with a pretty topline. Her branching is more even, but she has slight web reduction: crowntail genes in her bloodline. She also has a lot of red on her and a small dorsal. Overall, I like her better than #1, though.


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## polukoff (Nov 23, 2011)

Those females look alot better. I'd stay away from any heavily branched fish and look for nice even spread with good webbing.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Female #1 has poor body in general. She has a spoon head and un-even top line. Plus she also has bumpy sides. Her dorsal is poor- but she is not flaring, so I could be wrong. Her caudal and anal is much better than female #2. They're balanced and meet/overlap. She seems to have pointy edge potential. 

Female #2 has much better body in general. She has better dorsal but not so good caudal and anal. Her caudal is too round (but complimented by male) and her anal is ... I don't know, just looks off. I know she is a delta, whose caudal and anal often do not overlap, but the anal just doesn't seem right. Color wise - she has too much red - unless you like multi colors.


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Gotcha. Thanks so much everyone! I'm expecting multis in the spawn just based off of the males genetics alone so I don't mind it. Finding a good female is so hard! Haha can someone explain which branching they're referring to? I'm a little confused as to what looks like too much and what is good for my male. 

Here's another female. She's completely different from the others I've picke so far. Her anal doesn't overlap yet but I'm guess cause she's young? Her caudal also isn't as big as the others, but I really like her coloring

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1351025037


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes good females are very hard to find. Patience is truly a virtue in this case. Lol . For future "hunting", best look for a female first then seek a male for her - much much easier.

About rays; this is just an illustration







This illustration shows 8 and 4 end rays. Notice how each ray branches into 8/4 rays. That's what we mean when we say "8 ray" caudal. You need a betta that only branches into 2 or 4 rays. 

The yellow female seems to be 2 ray - not clear because she is not flaring. Her caudal has rather round edges. Her dorsal may have potential - the front ray seems long and almost upright (thus when she flares it may be upright). Her anal is short (something you want in young bettas because they will grow faster/more than caudal) so it will be balanced when she ages. Her body is not symmetrical and not good topline. Further she has uneven scales (bumpy side body).


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## flyingpony22 (Oct 17, 2012)

Ohh gotcha! That diagram helps so much! You made it really clear now. Yes in the future I will definitely do that. Haha I thought I was set with my original pair but clearly not. This was supposed to be just my trial pair to see if I was up to the commitment of spawning before I invested on an imported pair but it seems as though it would have just been easier if I had done this from the start. Haha figures. Oh well, my search for a suitable female continues. Thanks for all your contined help


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