# Pineconning causes



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

*Are there any other causes of pineconning, other then internal organ failure?*

What size is your tank? 20G
What temperature is your tank? 78
Does your tank have a filter? yes
Does your tank have an air stone or other type of aeration? yes
Is your tank heated? yes
What tank mates does your betta fish live with? 5 bettas, rabbit snails, nerite snail, 2 clown plecos

Food
What type of food do you feed your betta fish? Omega one flakes or new life spectrum pellets but she loves the algae waffers >.<
How often do you feed your betta fish? 1X a day

Maintenance 
How often do you perform a water change? 1X a week
What percentage of the water do you change when you perform a water change? 25-50%
What type of additives do you add to the water when you perform a water change? Stress coat, seachem flouish and some carbon 1X a week

Water Parameters:
Have you tested your water? If so, what are the following parameters?

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH: 7.8
Hardness:
Alkalinity: 

Symptoms and Treatment
How has your betta fish's appearance changed? pineconned - not clamped, no swollen eyes, no other symptoms
How has your betta fish's behavior changed? *Behavior is nomal*
When did you start noticing the symptoms? she was fine when I went to work, hrs later she was pineconned
Have you started treating your fish? If so, how? *epsom, furan 2 and metrodozinal soaked pellets*
Does your fish have any history of being ill? no
How old is your fish (approximately)? Several months old


----------



## moonsand0wls (Jul 7, 2012)

It's usually brought on by internal parasite infections. That may either be from what you are feeding it, or if you have introduced anything new into the tank (plants, other fish ETC).


----------



## ravenwinds (Feb 5, 2012)

Could she be egg bound?
Had a girl w/ your symptoms right after failed spawn...mine didn't make it but I also had no metronizole on hand 
I hope yours does better.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Clow pleco and the nertite are kinda new but they were in QT for over a month. I do sometimes feed frozen brine shrimp or bloodworms. Never live foods. 

I just checked on her - she looks the same. 

I don't think being eggy causes pineconning


----------



## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Actually, if a betta is quite fat the scales might stick out. Teeneythebetta here a user actually had this problem. It turns out her betta was just eggy, it should go away soon. If you want to, you can separate her with a breeder's net/box and observe. But IMO, as long as she's acting fine, there should be no reason to worry.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Lebron that's not true at all. Pine coning is a fluid build up under the skin. Bettas can be very fat/round and even have HUGE stomachs and still not be pine coned.

I would test the water. Dropsy caused by internal infections of bacterial or parasite in nature and/or organ failure - I say and because internal infections can cause organ failure. The initial cause is most commonly poor water conditions so I would check yours to be sure. Otherwise it can be bad food or chronic constipation turned infection, old age, toxins in the tank (not necessarily related to the nitrate cycle) or just poor genetics.

Epsoms are good. Furan 2 has some potential to work but if you can find Kanaplex or Maracyn Plus I'd switch to that. Treat for at least 2 weeks, and at least one week past when she looks totally in the clear. If you stop too early you have a high risk of it coming back.

I would try to switch her entirely to the NLS pellets and not feed flakes.. 5-8 split up twice a day and one fast day a week. Obviously, it would be better to keep her away from the algae wafers, but I know that's hard to do in a community tank. Eating a small amount is not a problem. However, according to OFL overheating algae feed can cause bloating issues and that can lead to things like dropsy.. You might want to separate during feeding to prevent this problem from coming up again.\

Good luck!


----------



## ravenwinds (Feb 5, 2012)

I know that we tend to change water a lot...but PLEASE remember that a 20g (with live plants) is not the same as a 2.5g or a 5g even. If you remove 50% of the water EVERY week...or more....you can potentially destroy the cycle you hopefully have! A fully cycled tank should have no more than a 25% water change...and less works better...every 1 to 2 weeks. There really is such a thing as going overboard with water changes.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

The reason for the extra water changes is the 2 plecos and snails - they poop ALOT. Most of the bacteria lives in the filter media, not the water itself. 
There are live plants but it's not even 1/2 the tank. 
As per OFL's Directions


> 10+gal with a filter
> Weekly 50% with vacuum
> Filter media needs a swish/rinse in old tank water a couple of times a month.


I only got the Omega one flakes 2 or so days ago. I though it was pellets but no, it was flakes. 

I feed the algae waffers at night but - they always seem to find them. I'm thinking there is enough stuff in there for the snails to eat without the algae and this species of pleco, from what I understand, isn't really much of an algae eater. I tried cucumber and zucchini but no one ever touched it

The only way to gt kanaplex is to order online. Maracyn plus I might be able to find. Maybe.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

50% water change isn't going to hurt anything. The bacteria is build into the filter and substrate. No worries you're not hurting anything by doing that, although it typically won't be necessary.


----------



## moonsand0wls (Jul 7, 2012)

All most all of the good bacteria lives in the filter - it wouldn't matter if you done 100% water changes. Sure, it would upset the water levels a little bit, but nothing dramatic.

3/4 water changes might be what's best, then.


----------



## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

callistra said:


> Lebron that's not true at all. Pine coning is a fluid build up under the skin. Bettas can be very fat/round and even have HUGE stomachs and still not be pine coned.


I don't know if you read the whole post that Lebron wrote but if not let me clarify, it has happened to other users on this forum where a Betta's scales have become raised and it wasn't due to dropsy. 

Yes sometimes a Betta can become quite large and round and not have raised scales but there are also times when the scales can slightly raise because of this bloat and they survived because it was not Dropsy it was simply something that had to pass. 

That was quite rude.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I just tested the water. Nothing is off.* Ammonia - 0, Nitrite -0, nitrate - 10*


If it was a true NPT without a filter, then I think doing bigger water changes might cause an issue. Not really sure about that. I know 6 bettas wont have that bad of a high bioload but I do have several trapdoor snails, 2 rabbit snails, nerite and 2 plecos in there and they are all high poopers. I might actually do less then 25% a week. I use a 7 or so gallon bin and I fill it 1/2 way - and I usually make 2 trips - so about 6 gallons a week.



> Yes sometimes a Betta can become quite large and round and not have raised scales but there are also times when the scales can slightly raise because of this bloat and they survived because it was not Dropsy it was simply something that had to pass.


That's kind of what I am hoping for as she eats EVERYTHING. However, I am not really optimistic since I know pineconing is almost always because of dropsy.

She could be eggy but...I dont think that would be enough to cause pineconning.


----------



## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

Is it full body pineconing or just around the stomach area?


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I read the whole post. I'm not trying to be rude, I just know the info to be incorrect. Raised scales is dropsy. There is such a thing as GI dropsy, where the pine coning is just around the abdomen and has to do with stomach issues and not kidney/organ failure like the full body pineconing is, but either way it's not something to just ignore and wait to pass, as it can still be lethal. It usually indicates and infection of the intestinal tract by way of parasite or bacteria. If it's slight enough I guess it could pass on its own along with constipation troubles, but that's rare. I've actually never seen it go away with no treatment (meaning at least epsom salts) but I could see if the infection was mild enough and the constipation that caused it cleared fast and completely enough recovery could come without treatment.


----------



## MSG (May 8, 2012)

*Anyone ever used this stuff to treat dropsy?*

I've NEVER had any success after I notice symptoms. 










I think I could get it for $4 or so. 

It would treat up to 4,000 gallons of water, so pretty good deal.

If I manage to save 4 fish, it pays for itself.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Just took the pics - looks like she has a sore? on her lip in one pic




























A few months ago.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

That's full body all the way down. Epsoms and Kanaplex is what I'd use.

Formalin is typically used to treat external parasite infections.. I've never seen it used for dropsy and I'm not sure how readily it is absorbed into the fish to be effective enough... I have never ever seen it advertised bacterial infections at all.. You see it alongside malachite green a lot to treat ich and velvet. As the bottle says, it's not an antibiotic. I guess they're banking on the dropsy you're treating being an internal parasite infection and again.. dunno how well it goes internal.. that would be a new claim to me as well.


----------



## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

callistra said:


> Lebron that's not true at all. Pine coning is a fluid build up under the skin. Bettas can be very fat/round and even have HUGE stomachs and still not be pine coned.


Really? I am sure TTB had this problem, I'm going to ask her but she isn't active as usual since the personal event she faced.. Isn't pine coning the visual effect from the true cause, fluid build up? Sorry, I have this annoying problem of making sure everything is understood and meant correctly.. :| Good luck with your girls.


----------



## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

Unfortunately that does indeed look more like Dropsy than other causes I have seen. I hope it's something she can pull through from, poor girl.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Furan 2 treats gram negative bacterial infections, such as columnaris. 
I'm not sure if it will do a thing for dropsy but I can't get Kanaplex without ordering online. The other anti bacterial I have is tetracycline but suposedly its not effective if the PH is over 7.2 or so and mine is 7.8 or higher.



> *Furan 2*
> *Active Ingredients: *nitrofurazone, furazolidone, methylene blue trihydrate
> *Diseases:* bacterial infections
> *Contraindications:*
> Furazolidone and nitrofurazone are carcinogenic agents.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

The key with the dropsy meds is combination of quick acting, general broad range effectiveness and their ability to be easily absorbed internally. Can you find Maracyn Plus? That would be my second choice to Kanaplex. Otherwise Furan 2 has some potential followed by Erythromycin.. nowhere near the same potential as the first two meds but it's something to try if it's all you can find.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Is that a combo of maracyn and maracyn 2 or it is something different? 
I went to check on her but the cup was empty. The little butthole jumped back into the tank. For someone who is supposedly near death, she is awfully fiesty. Should I just leave her in the tank since the whole thing is being treated with furan 2? No epsom though

I am beginning to suspect this is more then just an isolated case of dropsy. A week or so ago I though I seen something growing/eating away one of the other fish's lip but shrugged it off. Then I noticed a different one with an odd patch of white something on her tail end.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

Tiki, for you I'll come back to this section lol  I start posting in here, I end up spending all day posting in here 

Dropsy is the buildup of fluid inside the body cavity or tissues of a fish. Dropsy is a symptom rather than a disease unto itself and can indicate a number of underlying causes including bacterial infections, parasitic infections or liver dysfunction.

Its characteristic appearance is a general bloating of the fish's body. Frequently, the fish's scales stand out from the body, giving it a pinecone-like appearance. Both of these signs are symptomatic of the same basic problem: a dangerous buildup of internal pressure. A tumor or swollen organ may be the cause. Or fluids may be building up in the internal cavity, the result of bacterial or viral infections. A massive infestation of internal parasites can produce dropsy. An intestinal blockage can produce signs of dropsy. Bloating, scale protrusion and pop-eye can also befall female fish that are ripe with eggs.

Frankly, it is nearly impossible for us to determine with any precision the underlying cause of a dropsy. This is why use of drugs to "cure" the problem meets with limited and unpredictable success. As often as not, the fish will live or die irrespective of drug treatment.

Most often a fish with dropsy dies. Perhaps not immediately, but within several months. Indeed, in instances where dropsy is caused by internal infections, the bloating will disappear for a time, only to return a bit later with a vengeance. Thus, many reports of dropsy "cures" are just misinterpretations of the temporary regression of the disease.

If you have recurrent problems with dropsy in different fish, you can rule out tumors, egg binding and other idiosyncratic causes. The most likely cause in such instances is either internal infection or intestinal blockage. The former frequently accompanies the latter.

I am inclined to think it's bacterial for you, as you mentioned another fish had the same symptoms, both having sores.

The treatment Darkmoon had wrote for dropsy would be the ideal one - as it will help with any bacteria infection. I can't promise you anything good.. not many survive once pineconing sets in.. but you just never know.

Performing daily 100% water changes. Increase the temperature to 84*F. Add 1-2 tsp/gal Epsom Salt. Use API General Cure OR API Erythromycin OR Maracyn II and/or Maracyn for best results. Feed something containing Metronidazole, for example, Jungle’s Anti-Parasite pellets.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I would quarantine as the infection associated with dropsy tends to be contagious.

Maracyn Plus is totally different.

Sorry but that treatment is mostly for internal parasite infection, and the antibiotic suggestion is outdated at best. It's definitely not ideal. I think that was written when less was understand and known about dropsy, it was almost always fatal and people were just trying to come up with the broadest most potent drug cocktail to try. Now we know more, have had a lot of success treating it and there are better drugs to try.

If it's bacterial in nature the antibiotics we're suggesting are much more likely to work. Maracyn II has no chance to work. Maracyn has a slight chance to work but far below Kanaplex, Maracyn Plus and Furan 2. In the past people were suggesting the two in combo as one is gram positive and one is gram negative and hoping that throwing something together broad range would work - however Minocyline is not a very effective drug in general and is no good internal and Erythromycin has just a long standing history of only being somewhat effective in cases like this. General Cure is an external parasite med cocktail, and while it does have one drug that can work on some bacterial infections it's a very light load for bacterial and much more punchy on parasite. In the water, it's extremely unlikely to work but fed it could. 

I totally agree feeding metro along with the bacteria baths is a great idea and that is what I've mostly done in the past, but it's more stressful than treating antibiotics alone in the water. My experience with dropsy is that it tends to bacterial in nature, even if it's a secondary infection to a primary parasite infection (or visa versa), and it's the bacterial infection that's the fast killer part, so trying to get that under control without pushing the fish's kidney's which are already presumably over-stressed (hence the fluid buildup) out is the key here. Unless there is good evidence to suggest there is a primary parasite infection here, I would treat as bacterial. Jungle has discontinued their anti parasite fish food several years ago now (hense you can see where the advice is dated) but you can mix it up fresh using your own feed (so long as it's not NLS pellets because there's not enough wheat in them to soak) some garlic guard (garlic juice.. i would use organic and no additives) or dechlorinated water, one measure each of metro and focus, swish around soak for 10-15min and feed two twice a day for a minimum of two weeks and at least a full week past when symptoms appear to have totally cleared. Treatment for 3-4 weeks is more likely necessary in this approach, and even premedicated fish food suggest treatment for a month. You can also (unless that was discontinued recently) get some premedicated pellets from the goldfish connection but they are large and you will have to crush them. In my experience, fish don't like them and are more likely to eat the ones you soak yourself.


----------



## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The treatment I listed was wrote last year by someone who is a vet.. and who knows a great deal about treatments. The medications aren't necessarily just for parasites, the last part is an option - but the others cover what could be causing the dropsy, since we don't know what is causing this particular dropsy case, as there are multiple reasons that dropsy occurs. 

Guess it needs updating.. was posted a year ago by a vet. Luckily I personally haven't had to deal with any diseases (other than one ich outbreak about 18yrs ago), so I don't know first hand - I base my thoughts on the last 1.5yrs of studying fish/bettas diseases. Haven't for the last few months though.. so I definitely am dusty. 

I do agree about not pushing the internal organs, and honestly if one of mine had raised scales I would euthanize as it's rare for them to pull through and I don't wish to prolong a life that is only deteriorating. I don't recommend many medications, only if it is a must have, and I don't always keep track of the stronger ones. To me, trying to cover all bases sounded about right in this situation as no one knows the root of the problem. Why I suggested Darkmoon's treatment plan... as she really is one to trust when it comes to healing these little ones. But even the best can be outdated


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I have jungle parasite pellets but they won't eat them, hence the reason why I was sokaing NLS pellets in metrodozinal. I also havev like 3 bottles of Jungle anti parasite guard stuff. 

From what I have read - kannaplex is not recommened IF dropsy is caused by a kidney issue? 

I'm not sure of she has a bacterial or parasite infection or both. She has a sore on her lip as do 2 others and she also does not have normal looking poops. I haven't seen stringy or white poop but it is not the normal cinnamon bun looking kind. They are very short and skinny and dark brownish in color. One of the other females has ALWAYS had a big belly from the day I got her several months ago. I suspected internal parasites so I treated her for that.

WB Myates


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

NLS don't work as soaking pellets because there's so little wheat in them they won't really soak anything.. Hikari work particularly well and puff up a lot, but pretty much any pellet will work but NLS. Up to you what route you want to take.. can only share my personal experience and success stories. Good luck.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Ah, poo. I just used up the last of my Hiraki pellets. All I have here other then New life spectrum pellets is Omega one flakes and tetra betta flakes. 

Just tried Jungle's anti parasite pellets. The eat it then spit it back out


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

That was also my experience with the jungle. Most won't eat them. I mean.. smell them.. I wouldn't either ha. They smell all mediciney. You can try soaking the jungle in some garlic juice for a couple minutes, but I wouldn't for too long as you don't want to leach the meds out. Or you could just use the NLS as best you can until you can get to the store.

Not sure how you're doing this, but in the past when I've medicated pellets what I've done is use omega one or hikari. Put a little garlic guard (garlic juice no additives and ideally organic so no pesticides) in a small cup, or you could just use dechlorinatored water. One scoop of Metro and one scoop of Focus (seachem binding product supposed to make more of the med stick to the pellet). Add a few pellets and stir it up good. Let it soak 10-15minues and fed two. I did this twice a day - mixed up fresh each time because meds will lose their effectiveness. You could mix it up once a day and cover/refrigerate in between, then bring back to room temp too. If you don't have the focus you can just use your source of metro.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I use a betta cup and add water, then the metro and the pellets. Let it soak for 15 minutes and then try and fish all the pellets out of the cup. In the past, I have also used Jungle anti parasite fizzy tabs and soaked pellets in that. But I haven't seen that for a while. Wonder if it was discontinued?

Garlic is also supposed to also supposed to have anti parasite properties to it. Does it have to be a fresh garlic clove? Garlic powder??


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

I use garlic juice extract in liquid form. I've never tried fresh garlic or garlic powder nor have I seen it done so I'm not sure

Sadly a lot of the jungle products have been discontinued. Not sure if that's one


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I think It has been discontinued. I used to be able to easily find it at walmart but now there isn't even a space for it. 

I picked up wardly betta food and am soaking the pellets in water with the last of my Jungle fizzy tabs. Before I went to work, I removed her from the tank and have her sitting in a cup in my bedroom. She still acts like a normal, healthy fish. Last night she jumped out of the cup again and was swimming around like she always does. 

Just in case Lebron was on to something with the too eggy claim, I removed her cup from the tank but she still looks the same. I do have a male in there. Yes, I know the risks. They have been together for a year and he was suppopsed to of been a female but petco mislabled him as a female. He was the one I THOUGH i seen something weird happening to his lip a few weeks ago. It kinda looked like something was eatting it away but I am still not sure if I am seeing things or not. I might section him off incase this was caused by stress. 

Myates - I have no idea what happened to Darkmoon. She hasn't be around in awhile. I find her guide helpful but some of the medicinal recommendations, I'm not too sure I would want to use like potassium pomaagranite. Then again, being a vet student, I guess she would be used to using more potent meds. I think she was the one who's dad was some kind of fish specialist?


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Alrighty, since I don't want to keep her in a betta cup, especially if her days are numbered - I set up a 3ish gallon tank for her with a total of 3 teaspoons of epsom. I might up add 3 more teaspoons so it comes out to 2 per gallon. I made the pellets. She tried to eat one but then spit it out and gave up :-(.

When I added her to the new tank, she acted just as any fish would when added to a new home except it looks like the good year blimp floating around in there. 

I did order Kanaplex and methelene blue (which I have been after for like 2 months now).


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Sorry she won't eat 

Good luck.. are you going to try another antibiotic in the meantime or just wait for Kanaplex? If you can find MAracyn Plus I'd definitely go for that. That has a good shot.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I think I have seen maracyn plus at the LPS but since its X mas, cant go get it till thrusday and Im not sure how long till i get the other meds. 

Do you think I should wait it out, keep up the Furan 2 or give tetracycline a try? I'd even try bettafix if i though it would work


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Tetracyline and Bettafix have no shot. It's like sticking neosporin on a paper cut or something.

I think you should keep trying Furan 2 with epsoms until you can get something else.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I wasn't really serious about the bettafix. I didn't think tetracycline would work either. 
Furan 2 it is


----------



## MSG (May 8, 2012)

*Garlic j extract should be simple to make.*

The stuff in the jar meant to treat fish is probably garlic with some sort of enzyme stabilizer & preservative. 


Also the garlic in the fish food is DRIED, once that happens the most important chemicals that make it such as great immune booster are lost. 


NLS Thera-A is probably the only food that has an extra amount of garlic that supposedly you can detect once you open the bottle.

Fresh raw garlic will always be the most potent. 

Don't believe it, try it for yourself. 

Next time you feel a sore throat coming.... throw a bagel into the toaster & mince a 1-2 cloves of garlic..... 

1st half = freshly minced garlic & cream cheese
2nd half = garlic powder & cream cheese

See if you can notice the difference between the two ingredients. 

When I'm feeling really under the weather or about to come down with something.... I'll 1 ENTIRE garlic bulb per bagel with CC & EVOO.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Garlic works for sore throats? My grandpa used to tell me to gargle with salt water. Most disgusting thing ever!
I would get a garlic clove but she won't eat. She has an intrest and tries to eat but spits both the homemade medicated and her normal NLS pellets out.


----------



## ravenwinds (Feb 5, 2012)

Garlic is wonderful for treating human colds/flu/sore throat etc....I usually wait until I. Too sick so it takes longer, but then again, your sinuses are really clogged by then, so its easier to do 
When you first feel sore throat or fever or cough, peel a clove of garlic and put it in your mouth at around jaw joint or where tobacco chewers (sorry, but yeck!) Put their wad of tobacco. Now bite down on garlic with your molars a few times, keeping chewed garlic in contact with gums and cheek (bucchal and sublingual administration), holding it there at least a minute or until you can no longer handle the burn. Then swallow.
Garlic oil is very thin and highly administerable through the skin, why it makes a good topical antiseptic. Try this: take a peeled clove of garlic (not chopped or crushed) and put it in your shoe where toes meet the foot....then count how long it takes to taste it in your mouth! Only a minute or two and the volatile oils/essence has passed through your skin and into blood and lymph systems.
This explains why is so effective when FRESH....I agree with MSG: fresh is the best way to go. After all, after you swallow raw garlic, your stomachs cooks it with high acid so the more fresh, volatile oils/essences you start with, the better it will work.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

> ry this: take a peeled clove of garlic (not chopped or crushed) and put it in your shoe where toes meet the foot....then count how long it takes to taste it in your mouth! Only a minute or two and the volatile oils/essence has passed through your skin and into blood and lymph systems.


:shock: I so have to try this now!

Anyways, she looks the same but acts totally normal and seems to be eatting the smaller NLS pellets but not the wardly pellets.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Started kannaplex about 2 days ago. She looks like her scales are gonna go flying off at any minute BUT her behavior is still pretty good. Not Clamped, eats, swims around - not too much but she is alert and her flipper fins go a mile a minute. 

I've had fish with dropsy before and within 3 or so days they are laying on the bottom of the tank, barely alive. Not so with her. At least not yet.


----------



## ravenwinds (Feb 5, 2012)

Well, I'd take that as a good sign....have had same experience as you with Dropsy.
Happy New Year!
I'll keep thinking good thoughts for her recovery


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Obesity is not the cause. Use Epsom salts, they draw fluid out.


----------



## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I've never heard of garlic for fish, but if you do use it try to make it fresh because the anti bac/fung/par compound called allicin disintegrates very quickly. I use it whenever I feel a cold coming on. I mince the garlic, wait half a hour for allicin to form, then down it. Truly disgusting but effective.


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I've never done the garlic thing but supposedly it helps get them to eat and has anti parasite properties.

Epsom was one of the first things I tried.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Any improvement at all? How long now?

You can also feed Kanaplex.. that may be more effective.. have you ever mixed up feed?


----------



## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

She is pretty much the same as she was. 
Still huge and still acting pretty normal. - 
She will only eat NLS pellets - won't touch the wardly ones which were soaked in metrodozinal.


----------



## callistra (Jun 29, 2010)

Umm.. take out the bee hive. How long have you had it in there? Another user reported theirs started to bubble and then their betta came down with dropsy.. IDK but too much of a coincidence for me.


----------

