# Petition to Stop Stores from Selling Fish Bowls?



## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

I just saw a ton of people on different sites who keep their bettas in 1 gallon tanks or bowls and act like that is a good home for them and they will be happy. It makes me really frustrated inside.

I try to let people know that a 1 gallon tank or bowl isn't suitable for any fish and that it's a shame that pet stores even sell them.

Is there a way to get PetStores to stop selling betta bowls? Does anyone want to start a petition? I heard a rumor that betta bowls were outlawed somewhere, can't remember where though.

Something needs to be done <3 I don't really know how, but I could start some sort of a petition if I get enough support. ><((((º>


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## lilyth88 (Mar 15, 2012)

Pet stores unfortunately sell things smaller than those bowls too. Those worry me more than the 1 gallons. Like those betta "bubbles" that go on your wall, where the betta barely has enough room to move around. 

There are typically petition websites where you can circulate a petition that way.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

lilyth88 said:


> Pet stores unfortunately sell things smaller than those bowls too. Those worry me more than the 1 gallons. Like those betta "bubbles" that go on your wall, where the betta barely has enough room to move around.
> 
> There are typically petition websites where you can circulate a petition that way.


I know! I have heard people having .5 gallon bowls. o__O I didn't know they went that small. Yes, I was thinking of those petition websites. Hmmmm...like I said, it would be hard to get enough support but if I got enough, I would start something.

EDIT: I just checked out those betta bubbles too. That's even worse, dear god. Those poor dears don't even get a cave or really anything to hide in. They can only swim around in circles


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

It's bad enough that they sell them in those small, dirty cups. I can't believe that people claim that they make bubblenests in them. But this?!?! My Betta had fin rot b-cuz of this!!! He's recovering though. They shouldn't make anything tank under 2.5 gallons.
Hmmm... We should spread the word 2 everyone about this who actually has a heart 2 care 4 them. Whoever made up the Betta Bubble and Bowls, Why?!?!?!
YOU R KILLING innocent fish that don't deserve 2 die!!! I think since female Bettas can live 2-gether, they should be in groups in REAL tanks. I REALLY feel bad 4 the males.


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## lilyth88 (Mar 15, 2012)

There is a video on youtube of a young girl's betta in a betta bubble entitled "How to Care for your Betta." In it she says the betta bowl is perfect for them, and that you should feed them 5-6 pellets twice a day. Apparently they don't need a heater or filter either and you should only change the water once a month. It's one thing to treat your own betta that way, but to make a video saying this is HOW to care for a betta? Disgusting. I let her have it too.

*DISCLAIMER: *The statements above are *NOT* how to care for your betta. Please do not misunderstand this post.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I have nothing aganist one gallons as long as water quality is kept up but this stupid thing is only .3 of a gallon

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VALUE-BETTA...534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c64dbe49e


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

LebronTheBetta said:


> It's bad enough that they sell them in those small, dirty cups. I can't believe that people claim that they make bubblenests in them. But this?!?! My Betta had fin rot b-cuz of this!!! He's recovering though. They shouldn't make anything tank under 2.5 gallons.
> Hmmm... We should spread the word 2 everyone about this who actually has a heart 2 care 4 them. Whoever made up the Betta Bubble and Bowls, Why?!?!?!
> YOU R KILLING innocent fish that don't deserve 2 die!!! I think since female Bettas can live 2-gether, they should be in groups in REAL tanks. I REALLY feel bad 4 the males.


Glad to know you feel the same. Hey, I was thinking if, enough people give me the "go for." I WILL make an online petition and link everyone to it so that it can be signed and sent to the petstores. Sound awesome? Let our voices be heard.

For people that need a little refresher on the size of bowl tanks. Here are some. 

*Betta Bowls: *










*CUBES: *


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## SweetNightmare (Mar 15, 2012)

To be fair, and please don't tar and feather me, it would not only be crazy expensive to give every pet store betta the proper aquarium, but it would take up a ton of space. I work for a pet store that changes the cup water every other day. If we see one doing badly, we stick it in a tetra tank, but we don't have enough space to put them all in tanks, unless you want them eaten by cichlids.

Now the less than 1 gallon bowls, I agree. But I think that a gallon, in a pinch, can be made to work, as long as it is kept clean.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Tikibirds said:


> I have nothing aganist one gallons as long as water quality is kept up but this stupid thing is only .3 of a gallon
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VALUE-BETTA...534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c64dbe49e



Hmmm, aren't bowls generally like .5 ? I think I could leave out the one gallon and focus more on the bowls and under 1 gallons. Though one gallons can still be fairly small. Though I must admit, those cubes and .3 gallons are simply ghastly.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

SweetNightmare said:


> To be fair, and please don't tar and feather me, it would not only be crazy expensive to give every pet store betta the proper aquarium, but it would take up a ton of space. I work for a pet store that changes the cup water every other day. If we see one doing badly, we stick it in a tetra tank, but we don't have enough space to put them all in tanks, unless you want them eaten by cichlids.
> 
> Now the less than 1 gallon bowls, I agree. But I think that a gallon, in a pinch, can be made to work, as long as it is kept clean.


I'm not gonna tar and feather you. It's nice that you put your experience out there. I still hate anything less than 5 gallons honestly, but I understand what you mean. Would it be suitable for stores to only have over 1 gallon tanks in stock on there shelves? I think they could manage.

Hmmm does your store sell less than 1 gallons? I'm TRYING to figure out what would be the best way to petition and what exactly I would want to target. 

Should I target the selling of less than 1 gallon tanks? Or should I target betta bowls, 1 gallon tanks and anything under as well?


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

lilyth88 said:


> There is a video on youtube of a young girl's betta in a betta bubble entitled "How to Care for your Betta." In it she says the betta bowl is perfect for them, and that you should feed them 5-6 pellets twice a day. Apparently they don't need a heater or filter either and you should only change the water once a month. It's one thing to treat your own betta that way, but to make a video saying this is HOW to care for a betta? Disgusting. I let her have it too.
> 
> *DISCLAIMER: *The statements above are *NOT* how to care for your betta. Please do not misunderstand this post.


That's horrible. I don't think letting her "have it" is exactly the mature thing to do though. Express your concern politely usually gets a better response. I'm glad people are getting passionate over this though


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## SweetNightmare (Mar 15, 2012)

We sell .5 gallons as well. Unfortunately, we sell a lot of them. We have really cute 1 and 2 gallons we display up front with the bettas, so I try to show them those if they're not open to a normal aquariums. And I always tell them about my ten gallon.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

SweetNightmare said:


> We sell .5 gallons as well. Unfortunately, we sell a lot of them. We have really cute 1 and 2 gallons we display up front with the bettas, so I try to show them those if they're not open to a normal aquariums. And I always tell them about my ten gallon.



Good to know. So....hmm if I did make a petition would it be better to focus on only things under 1 gallon, or focus on things both 1 gallon and under 1 gallon? I would really much prefer bettas to have at least a 2.5 gallon, which is what this site and most experienced betta owners know should be the minimum.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

I think one of the reasons petstores push tiny bows is because people are more willing to spend $5 on a tiny home for $2 fish then they are to spend $25 or more for the larger tank set ups. Remeber to most people, bettas "are just cheap fish" >.<

Have you seen those tiny things petco pushes as greeat homes for BABY bettas?

I would focus on tanks under 1 gallon. Although 1 gallon isn't great, its much better then some of these much smaller homes. At least 1g can be heated and have some decorations in it.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Tikibirds said:


> I think one of the reasons petstores push tiny bows is because people are more willing to spend $5 on a tiny home for $2 fish then they are to spend $25 or more for the larger tank set ups. Remeber to most people, bettas "are just cheap fish" >.<
> 
> Have you seen those tiny things petco pushes as greeat homes for BABY bettas?
> 
> I would focus on tanks under 1 gallon. Although 1 gallon isn't great, its much better then some of these much smaller homes. At least 1g can be heated and have some decorations in it.


Okay, sounds like a good plan, or at least a stepping stone for better animal welfare. So......would people support me if I made a petition? o__O I have never made one before so it would take a little learning o_o


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## SweetNightmare (Mar 15, 2012)

Some of the one gallons actually have a decent amount of room, due to having good surface area. A footprint is just as important as gallonage. For example, there's a two gallon at my store that I feel gives one of our bettas more room than Sora's old 2.5. Just a thought.

Also, our bettas are sold for four or five dollars, depending on the tail shape. A little more of an adoption fee to encourage people to take care of them.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

SweetNightmare said:


> Some of the one gallons actually have a decent amount of room, due to having good surface area. A footprint is just as important as gallonage. For example, there's a two gallon at my store that I feel gives one of our bettas more room than Sora's old 2.5. Just a thought.
> 
> Also, our bettas are sold for four or five dollars, depending on the tail shape. A little more of an adoption fee to encourage people to take care of them.


Would you mind telling me what brands your store sells of the under 1 gallon tanks? It would be great if you could link me to the brands site too.


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## BettaFishLuver (Feb 5, 2012)

It's sad to see how many people buy such tiny bowls! My friend just bought a 0.5 gallon a couple days ago and called me wondering why her betta died. Sadly she has a betta in 1.2 gallon already but never cleans the tank and only feeds her betta dried brine shrimp (which is a "treat" if I'm not mistaken) luckily I convinced her to buy at least a 10 gallon but she isn't going to move her other betta from her 1.2g because someone told her bettas will die in anything bigger than 5g! She wants to put a freshwater shark in the 10g -_- !!


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

BettaFishLuver said:


> It's sad to see how many people buy such tiny bowls! My friend just bought a 0.5 gallon a couple days ago and called me wondering why her betta died. Sadly she has a betta in 1.2 gallon already but never cleans the tank and only feeds her betta dried brine shrimp (which is a "treat" if I'm not mistaken) luckily I convinced her to buy at least a 10 gallon but she isn't going to move her other betta from her 1.2g because someone told her bettas will die in anything bigger than 5g! She wants to put a freshwater shark in the 10g -_- !!


Oh dear. You should link her to this site and the betta care page. Bettas will die in anything larger than 5 gallon? LoL what? I have seen some people give 1 betta a 10 gallon or even 20 gallon tank all to themselves....yeah. I'm sure they are having a blast with all their room too.


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

I agree with U, 4everaspirit. You SHOULD make an online petition. But how r U going 2 make anyone see it??? Whenever u post something, tell them about the website. But make sure it's legal 2 make a website that a certified pet Store is doing something wrong. You DON'T want 2 go 2 jail do U??? And make sure, if you DO make the website, add a link 2 what Betta care actually is. You could also add the video of Betta Abuse by Luimeril. Careful with the copyright.


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## Tikibirds (May 26, 2011)

Instead of aiming at petstores, why not send the petition to the manufactures of these tiny bowls?


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

LebronTheBetta said:


> I agree with U, 4everaspirit. You SHOULD make an online petition. But how r U going 2 make anyone see it??? Whenever u post something, tell them about the website. But make sure it's legal 2 make a website that a certified pet Store is doing something wrong. You DON'T want 2 go 2 jail do U??? And make sure, if you DO make the website, add a link 2 what Betta care actually is. You could also add the video of Betta Abuse by Luimeril. Careful with the copyright.


I was just going to use change.org or Care2.com to start a petition and then link it all back to you. I kinda of do want to also target the betta bowls. Some are under 1 gallon(.5), but some are also at one gallon.( There are very few you can get for 2.5 gallon) I'm debating whether to include the ones that are at 1 gallon in the petition.

I don't see anything illegal about expressing my concern, I'm not slandering the pet store, I'm merely requesting improvements.

LOL I can't make a website worth anything, I'm okay with using one of the sites I mentioned above though to make a petition. Anyone one know which one is better?


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

Just a heads up, you can stop the stores from selling them, but it would be really hard to reach the people that think bettas enjoy small spaces and don't need a heater. The example is set by the petstore keeping them in cups unheated. You should include on the petition, if possible, to keep bettas on a heated environment. May it be betta barracks or a system that they have water flowing through their space, kind of like some breeders have. Doing that can also influence people that they should have heaters. Petstore employees should tell people they need heaters though.


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## Aside (Mar 20, 2012)

I think that stores selling one gallons might actually be good for bettas so long as proper care instructions are given. I don't mean that a one gallon is ideal but I think that if taken care of properly it can make a suitable home. Granted I'm completely new to bettas.

I think that People are more likely to buy a betta with a one gallon bowl than in a 5+ gallon tank. And while it's not ideal I think that we can agree that it is better than them living the rest of their short lives in those little pet store cups.

I do however think something needs to be done about the smaller tanks. The petco near me where I bought my fish was selling .5 gallon tanks with a divider. While The 'fish expert' said they didn't recommend those it wasn't because of the size but because the divider was made in such a way that the fish could get through them. This is the same guy who tried to stop me from buying a two gallon tank the next day because "Betta fish don't do well in larger tanks and you don't need a heater"

While I think the tank size is important I think what is more important for the Betta's lives is actually educating the store people on proper care. I think that a betta would be better off in a .5 gallon with an owner that understands water quality, changes water frequently, feeds the right amount, and knows how to look for signs of illness than in a 5 gallon getting fed a couple times a week (that is what I was told) and getting its water changed one a month.


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## SweetNightmare (Mar 15, 2012)

No idea. They're just general glass bowls. Except for these:

www.petco.com/product/111197/Marina-Betta-Kit-in-Burgundy.aspx?CoreCat=BettaHPFishTanks

This one I've seen in person and isn't so bad, you could fit a heater and some decor in it, but it should be bigger. If it were two gallons the lid would make it awesome.

www.petco.com/product/106657/Hagen-Zen-Marina-Betta-Kit.aspx?CoreCat=BettaHPFishTanks

No salvaging this one. -.- I hate this one.

Sorry about the petco links, we don't have an online catalogue.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

kfryman said:


> Just a heads up, you can stop the stores from selling them, but it would be really hard to reach the people that think bettas enjoy small spaces and don't need a heater. The example is set by the petstore keeping them in cups unheated. You should include on the petition, if possible, to keep bettas on a heated environment. May it be betta barracks or a system that they have water flowing through their space, kind of like some breeders have. Doing that can also influence people that they should have heaters. Petstore employees should tell people they need heaters though.


I see your point. But I think tackling one thing at a time would be better. I don't see how stores could heat the cups they sell the bettas in. They would have to get tanks for all the bettas they have and keep them heated. (Which would be nice, but I highly doubt they would. Space is money to them.)


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

SweetNightmare said:


> No idea. They're just general glass bowls. Except for these:
> 
> www.petco.com/product/111197/Marina-Betta-Kit-in-Burgundy.aspx?CoreCat=BettaHPFishTanks
> 
> ...


It's okay. That 1/2 gallon looks like the biggest 1/2 gallon I have ever seen O.O? I really wonder if that could possibly be a 1/2 gallon. Maybe it looks smaller in person.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Aside said:


> I think that stores selling one gallons might actually be good for bettas so long as proper care instructions are given. I don't mean that a one gallon is ideal but I think that if taken care of properly it can make a suitable home. Granted I'm completely new to bettas.
> 
> I think that People are more likely to buy a betta with a one gallon bowl than in a 5+ gallon tank. And while it's not ideal I think that we can agree that it is better than them living the rest of their short lives in those little pet store cups.
> 
> ...


A .5 gallon is NOT suitable AT ALL, I don't care how well the tanks are maintained.. As I said, this site and most experienced betta owners know the minimum to be a 2.5 for a betta to thrive. Sure a betta could live in a .5 gallon with proper care and cleanings and what not, but just as well could a human live in a closet with feedings and cleanings.

People that say that betta won't do well in bigger tanks boggles my mind. It's like they are trying to defend keeping bettas in small tanks because they probably feel guilty for doing so. Anyone with a logical sense can see how that DOESN'T make sense.

That said, people with the knowledge to know that a betta needs around a 5 gallon tanks, would also MOST LIKELY know how to take care of them properly.


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## SweetNightmare (Mar 15, 2012)

A friend of mine and her mother have a pink and a purple for their bettas. It's about three bettas long; it is quite large for a half gallon. Like I said, just a little bigger and it'd be great. It's a really cute little tank, but it's just too small. The concept is good though.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm so confused. Apparently *Italy *and *Sweden* have banned betta bowls so I was going to use that to help my argument. But if we are really getting at the tanks *under 1* *gallon*, that would be hard because some while a lot of bowls *are .5* *gallons*, some bowls *are 1 gallon*, and a very few *are a* *2+* *gallon*. It would be *weird* to want the* banning *of the betta bowls *under 1 gallon "only"*. I'd rather just ban_* the whole lot of them.*_ O__O But the counter argument is always that "*some"* bowls are *a 2 gallon + size.*


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## Aside (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm not saying a .5 gallon is a suitable home. I know it's not. I just think that the bigger problem is educating people as opposed to tank size, though I'm not saying that is unimportant. I would love to get all prospective betta owners to buy five gallon tanks. 
I just think the first step is to educate people and then I think the tank size will come naturally. If the workers know about betta care then they will be less likely to suggest the smaller tanks. 

When I got my betta I was looking at a two and a half gallon with a filter (I had no idea about needing a heater because no one at the store did) I was told not to buy that tank because it would be bad for it and that bettas shouldn't be kept in anything larger than a gallon.

I think that the first step is to educate people so they at least know what to do. People that care about their fishes lives will do right by them. The others, well there isn't a ton we can do about it. Even if pet stores stop selling smaller tanks if their customers don't know they can just stick them in little storage containers or bowls. 

I think that the first step in any change is just knowledge. More than that it's up to the people that buy them. Any place you get a dog will tell you the proper care for it, yet animal shelters int his country are still overflowing. A horse is too big an investment for most people to take on without knowing better. Some people just don't care which is why thousands of horses get slaughtered every year.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Aside said:


> I'm not saying a .5 gallon is a suitable home. I know it's not. I just think that the bigger problem is educating people as opposed to tank size, though I'm not saying that is unimportant. I would love to get all prospective betta owners to buy five gallon tanks.
> I just think the first step is to educate people and then I think the tank size will come naturally. If the workers know about betta care then they will be less likely to suggest the smaller tanks.
> 
> When I got my betta I was looking at a two and a half gallon with a filter (I had no idea about needing a heater because no one at the store did) I was told not to buy that tank because it would be bad for it and that bettas shouldn't be kept in anything larger than a gallon.
> ...


I see what you're saying, but I think that even for inexperienced people the fish would rather be in a bigger tank. Don't you think it would be better for a betta to be in at least a 2.5 gallon tank, even if the owner didn't take care of them well, rather than for a betta to be in a .5 gallon tank where the owner still didn't take care of them well? See the improvement? That's where I'm getting at. If we eliminate the small tanks, people will at least be forced to have bigger tanks anyway. Educating people (seeing as how many don't really care and only see bettas as decorations) seems like a harder thing to do all around, having a banning of the small tanks though, seems like something the stores could do.


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

Okay... What about this, We petition about Betta Abuse and the size of their tank, right??? So, I think u should make it anything less than, ummm, let us say, a gallon? What about that? I've seen people put Bettas in 1 gallon tanks. But 4 bowls, that, my friend, is a NONO!!! It gets dirty easily and there is bad circulation b-cuz of the form of the surface area.


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

They can stick bettas in those betta barracks in tank. It doesn't give them lots of space, but at least they are heated and filtered. If you don't know what I am talking about look it up. Bettas can be kept in various tanks. I went to a family petshop that had a betta with their neons and was fine. People believe bettas must be kept alone.

Anyways, if you see a fish in a cup, you are going to believe that they can live in small spaces like that. So just making a small space hard to get will only discourage some people.

Some bettas don't do well in larger tanks. If you have been on here for a while you would of heard some stories. It depends on the fish, not what you believe is the minimum. Also their are many experienced people on here that have thriving bettas in 1 gallons. Some don't have enough space or some just have so many bettas or financial problems. A 5 gallon will cost much more than just a bowl.

When in petstores some bettas get use to that small confined space, if you get a 55 gallon and out one betta in there, if it isn't decorated or planted heavily that betta will be scared. It is a huge amount of space change. Again it depends on the fish.


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## Aside (Mar 20, 2012)

I agree that it is better to keep them in a bigger tank and that there will then be a bigger margin for error with inexperienced owners. However, I think that education still needs to come first, even something as simple as an _accurate_ care sheet provided by the pet store. 

If someone thinks that bettas can be kept is such small room not being able to buy a bowl that size isn't going to stop them. There will be nothing to stop them from putting them in a regular bowl or a vase and using them as a centerpiece. 

I think that the big problem with betta care is that people don't know better because pet stores don't teach them any better. I bet that most people that buy betta fish and keep them in such conditions probably think they are generally doing right by their fish. Particularly all those parents buying them for their children. They want the fish to stay healthy so they don't have to deal with a heartbroken chile. 

Another big thing is that people think a smaller tank is less work. The idea that a larger tank is easier to maintain is counter intuitive for people that know nothing about fish. 

Many people want a pet and they hear bettas are easy to take care of. They want to limit maintenance so the get a little bowl and no filter because they think it will be less work.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I made an awareness group on Facebook a while ago for betta fish. It focuses on the misconceptions and improper care of betta fish, with a goal to end to harm to bettas cause by products and pet store misinformation. While I have a scheduled awareness day set for June 21 that focuses on members coming together and sending companies letters/emails of complaints, providing posters of proper care to raise awareness, and contacting local stores about poor conditions of betta fish, I would like to do something more such as a petition.

I think education is the most important aspect of correcting a mistake. 1 gallon may be small but it is COMPLETELY possible to raise a betta properly in it as long as a strict maintenance schedule is followed and the owner has a proper amount of time and dedication to keep it up. Most people, once educating on such a rigorous demand, prefer to obtain larger tanks because of their ease. 

In the UK, it is illegal to sell any fish tanks that is under 1 gallon because of strict animal abuse laws. I think it is critically important in getting similar laws in the United States to begin preventing betta abuse and neglect.


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

What you might try if you work in a Pet store (like me :-D) is to set up a small tank that shows people how easy and inexpensive it is to make your betta a nice home. We've set up two different bettas in 'betta kits.' We have a 1.75 gallon kritter keeper set up nicely, and a one gallon set up the same. It allows us to explain the care and cleaning needs of each setup. Visuals are a good thing! Customers also get to see how lively and curious these little fish really are!
:thumbsup:


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Ramble: Petsmart has recently began doing something similar, only with negative impacts. My local PetSmart and others have begun using these betta kit displays that are those tiny 1 gallon or 1/2 gallon divided tanks in the betta section. In addition, they have those tanks and similar tanks of small size on sale. This is very harmful, in my opinion.


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

Good to know the UK still cares America doesn't give a care. I still think the idea of betta center pieces in vases still endangers them greatly.

Education should come first, then change to products.

Good idea is to speak to the manager or email the actually HQ of Petco or Petsmart and ask why they support the small bowls.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

It seems like some people are telling me that I shouldn't make a petition then? Since it won't matter because people will just end up putting bettas in vases if they can't get small tanks. I think it DOES matter because at least the pet stores won't be advocating small tanks as *permanent* homes for bettas. And if a new law gets passed around, people will hear about it and realize that such small environments are not suitable.

You can't possibly make sure people are educated properly, but you can make sure that no store sells tanks under a gallon. 

I don't know anymore...I'm getting so many confused signals and ideas with this idea of a petition.


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

Sivan said:


> Ramble: Petsmart has recently began doing something similar, only with negative impacts. My local PetSmart and others have begun using these betta kit displays that are those tiny 1 gallon or 1/2 gallon divided tanks in the betta section. In addition, they have those tanks and similar tanks of small size on sale. This is very harmful, in my opinion.


It isn't as harmful as keeping them in cups! The Petsmart near me only has one in the .5 kit, i got my HMPK from their and be was actually very lively. Almost none of the Vegas in cups were lively.

Visuals help a lot. If all bettas in stores were kept in 1 gallon tanks or bowls people may believe that is a better home.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Agreed but people should not be led to believe that those divided tanks are suitable homes either because of the ammonia build up. If they keep bettas in betta barracks that would be best.

As for the petition, I am more than willing to help and am looking into the best way to create one.


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Sivan said:


> Agreed but people should not be led to believe that those divided tanks are suitable homes either because of the ammonia build up.


I agree. I don't like those tiny divided tanks either. That's why we're showing the larger keepers...we can't control what other pet stores do, but we can try to set a better example.


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

I agree with a petition since the petstores advocate them, buy selling them. Just remember that banning the sales of small tanks doesn't stop the mistreated of bettas.

Also you would have to look into and possibly contact the stores as just having people sign something doesn't mean they will stop selling them. I believe you need to have an agreement with them. Someone correct me if I am wrong though.


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## LaLaLeyla (Aug 17, 2011)

Fish bowls aren't always used for fish though... 
Maybe instead of petitioning you can educate people.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Sivan said:


> Agreed but people should not be led to believe that those divided tanks are suitable homes either because of the ammonia build up. If they keep bettas in betta barracks that would be best.
> 
> As for the petition, I am more than willing to help and am looking into the best way to create one.


Thanks Silvian. I was considering which site would be better, "care2" or "change.org". I think we can all at least agree that under 1 gallon tanks should be banned, right? We can work from there.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

LaLaLeyla said:


> Fish bowls aren't always used for fish though...
> Maybe instead of petitioning you can educate people.


I have been trying to, problem is many people don't listen to me. Many people who have the small bowls don't like it when they are told that they need bigger tanks for their fish to thrive. I have been getting negative responses from people that think I'm attacking them personally. Simply get rid of the small bowls in the first place, and we wouldn't have as much of this problem.


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## Aside (Mar 20, 2012)

I think a good step would be to educate people at the stores. Maybe make a care sheet and ask if you can leave them at the petstore near the bettas and talk to the resident 'fish expert'.


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

Have you looked into how a petition works? I don't know how they do work, but I believe the company would have to agree, as it is not a law, so technically the can do what ever.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Okay, I'm starting the petition, just to see how it goes....I don't want to hit the start button yet though because I need a little help with the description

This is what I have so far. This will be on Change.org.

"Many pet stores sell people tanks and bowls that are under 1 gallon. This is barely enough room for a fish to move around or to have some plants or a cave.

When people see fish, especially bettas being sold in small cups, many think that a small enclosure would then be suitable as a "permanent" home. They are not. Nearly all experienced fish experts can agree that keeping fish in a tank or bowl under 1 gallon is inhumane.

Places in Italy have already made progress by banning fish bowls. It's time to build another stepping stone for animal welfare here in America."

Needs more details, I know... V__V I think I may just give up, I have no idea what I'm doing here lol


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

kfryman said:


> Have you looked into how a petition works? I don't know how they do work, but I believe the company would have to agree, as it is not a law, so technically the can do what ever.


How do petitions come about then? Since surely I don't think any company would agree to have a petition about them.  I have seen petitions against all sorts of places...I don't think anyone walked up and said "hey, can we start a petition about you?" xD


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## kfryman (Nov 7, 2011)

I looked it up, it is just a voice. The petstore can completely ignore it if they want. It just tells them that a lot of people disagree with what they are doing. Look up how to set it up on the change.org. They said a certain template should be used.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

kfryman said:


> I looked it up, it is just a voice. The petstore can completely ignore it if they want. It just tells them that a lot of people disagree with what they are doing. Look up how to set it up on the change.org. They said a certain template should be used.


I see most people having these long descriptions that are really thorough. I don't think I can do that. . I'm about to just give up, but if someone else wants to do one, feel free to.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I have been looking it up at Change.org as well and think the best way to do it is to start on a local level. I think I will make one for NY state. I would like to have the petitions sent directly to whoever would be in charge of these matters. I believe it would be the governor. I believe that if a petition is made it should be done in the most efficient and beneficial way possible to the cause.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Sivan said:


> I have been looking it up at Change.org as well and think the best way to do it is to start on a local level. I think I will make one for NY state. I would like to have the petitions sent directly to whoever would be in charge of these matters. I believe it would be the governor. I believe that if a petition is made it should be done in the most efficient and beneficial way possible to the cause.


Hmmm local levels...LOL I was going at the big companies head on. I dunno, I definitely think you should go for making a petition, you seem to have a much better handle on what to do. My regards to you, I will assuredly sign your petition if you link it here and I can help with anything small you need. I think I'm out of making one on my though


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

That 0.3gal tank made me feel sick, I was sold a betta in one (swiftly changed the next day to a 5gal after research) I now only use it for salt baths, (with correct dosage obviously lol) or if I need to isolate a fish because it is sick and I have nowhere else to put it, for example if I had one in the Hospital tank with white spot I make sure I don't put one into the same tank with fin rot as I wouldn't want to pass it onto either or the other. (even then I go down to the fish shop and buy a 2.5gal instead!)
I will sign any petition you create!
Also I think that you are betta concentrating on getting a rule on a minimum of 1gal tank, start small, finish big!!!


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## LebronTheBetta (Apr 23, 2012)

How about this:

" Would like to live your whole LIFE in your bedroom? I think NOT!!!"
Or
" Do you enjoy wasting precious lives? If no, then why do you make these things? You shouldn't treat a live animal this just because of their size! They are just like other pets, you care about them and love them. But not in a way that you think you are saving them, but actually giving them bad care."
Or even this,
" They shouldn't be in those TINY, DIRTY, PINT-SIZED CUPS!!! They should get the care they deserve. Would YOU like to live and smell your own poop!?!? So what if they're fish, it doesn't matter. It actually DOES matter. What happens if you're a fish. Would you want a nice, big, clean water or, disgusting, poop-filled, stinky,hard to breath water?"

What do YOU think???


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, I will have to do research into it which is something I would do anyway. While it would be great to get individual companies to begin participating, it would be easier to target them all through law. Although, it would not be bad to have a long-term plan of first getting individual companies to voluntarily give up their sales of such products then work toward a law that makes them illegal as a way to end the sale of such products on a small, locally owned, level as well.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Becky: Since you live in the UK, do you know WHERE I can find the law that bans the sale of tanks under 1 gallon? I would love to cite it. Hard, proven, facts such as laws and research will be the best way to win an argument over hearsay. I want my facts to be accurate and have the ability to cite them. I have been told many times about the 1 gallon UK law by people who live there but do not know WHERE to find it.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Btw there are already a few petitions for the ending of betta bowls on care2, though they aren't really aimed at any organizations or petstores, more of an awareness thing. They don't have too many signatures, so I suppose that would be a problem.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't know much about care2 but have heard of change.org multiple times. Petitions can be unsuccessful due to a lack of advertising, lack of professional structure in the description, lack of evidence, lack of awareness, etc.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Sivan said:


> I don't know much about care2 but have heard of change.org multiple times. Petitions can be unsuccessful due to a lack of advertising, lack of professional structure in the description, lack of evidence, lack of awareness, etc.


Definitely go for it, I'd really like to see your petition. I'm also hesitating because I don't want to have to put my name out there, ya know?


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I'd put my name out there but I do not think my name would mean as much as slapping the name of my awareness group. There is strength in numbers, after all, and titles impress people more than individual identities. If "Betta Fish Awareness Day" is making a petition to end the sales of abuse betta products, it may sound more legitimate than "Sivan" (yes, that's my name) making the petition because who exactly is Sivan and why is she an authority?

I will make this my next project.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

http://www.peta.org/issues/companion-animals/fish-in-tanks-no-thanks.aspx
This is a charity based on improving the living conditions of tropical fish in general, I have never heard about this law, but am now researching, lol I'm probably more likely to find something than you because as a resident of the uk I'm more aware of the uk's organisations and law enforcers LOL
Will check back soon with an official government statement if I can find one!


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

sorry for double post, just found this, will now check RSPCA website
http://www.wikihow.com/Set--Up-a-Betta-Tank


*Determine if a pet shop mistreats its bettas*. Small cups may seem cruel, but bettas usually stay in a pet store for a few weeks, and are adapted to living in somewhat similar conditions for months in the wild. Because male bettas can't live together, it is difficult for stores to house them ideally, though conditions must be livable. Possible signs of betta mistreatment include:
Consistently dirty water going unchanged.

Containers that are never opened (implying no water changes).
Most bettas are very thin, sick, or dead.
Dead and diseased bettas displayed, or moved to the back and not dealt with.
The same bettas remain in the store for several months (store conditions are rarely acceptable long-term; this usually indicates they order too many fish).
Containers smaller than 3" in diameter.
Containers with no surface air (bettas are labyrinth fish[3] requiring surface air to breathe).

3
*Check back at the store every few days for a month or so to see if the situation is consistent*. Go as a window-shopper, and shop there if possible to establish yourself as a customer to lend more weight to your concerns. While evaluating the situation, don't confront anyone just yet.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Sivan said:


> I'd put my name out there but I do not think my name would mean as much as slapping the name of my awareness group. There is strength in numbers, after all, and titles impress people more than individual identities. If "Betta Fish Awareness Day" is making a petition to end the sales of abuse betta products, it may sound more legitimate than "Sivan" (yes, that's my name) making the petition because who exactly is Sivan and why is she an authority?
> 
> I will make this my next project.


That is a really good idea and point. Use your existing group to aid in credibility. Genius! I also think you are working really hard at gathering information and looking up the best way to go about this. Truly inspiring. ^^ Please keep up the good work, don't lose faith in yourself, I trust you would do a better job than me because like I said, you already seem to have an idea of where you're going with this, and you also have your group to use as more credibility.

I was reading your group message on FB. I think it might be best to work at each individual level like you suggested. I suppose you could also make it toward the department heads of the PetStores in each state (if they have one for each state). Please do check around and see what works best ^^


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I've just about given up hope on changing pet stores. It's unfortunate but I see no change coming. I no longer even buy from pet stores and I stick to online. I buy my bettas directly from Thailand or American breeders. I've found it to be a waste of energy with me working on school and breeding bettas for show I have no time to worry about bettas in pet stores.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

MrVampire181 said:


> I've just about given up hope on changing pet stores. It's unfortunate but I see no change coming. I no longer even buy from pet stores and I stick to online. I buy my bettas directly from Thailand or American breeders. I've found it to be a waste of energy with me working on school and breeding bettas for show I have no time to worry about bettas in pet stores.


Pet stores have started incorporating adoptable pets into their mix. So obviously they can change and they do allow room for improvement.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with a 1 gallon long term...


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Mo said:


> I don't see anything wrong with a 1 gallon long term...


It's just not a good environment for a fish to thrive. Sure they can "live" in this type of environment with regular mainteance, just as a human could "live" in a closet their whole lives with proper mainenance. The point is, they won't thrive. 

We're all betta lovers here so I assume we'd want to give the dears a decent environment with plenty of caves to explore and plants to cozy around.

I don't really like anything less than a 5 gallon. But a 2.5 gallon I could see as being suitable. Not a 1 gallon though, or anything under especially.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

good luck on this petition. this is one of the highest controversial things out there! BTW I have 1 gallons. :/ they're cleaned every 2 days.

But the thing is you are not fighting one company like....walmart....you're taking on everyone. the cups are used because they may not have the room to give bettas 5 gallons of cycled, filtered, heated water. bowls, cups, are useful to those companies because the bettas usually sit there for maybe a week. I know here, the manager cut back on how many bettas he got, and they sell within 3-5 days usually. He stopped selling females, which is where I got my 6, which 2 died from severe rot despite progress.

there are some people who don't even mention their tank sizes because they get ridiculed or bashed, and this site for sure is not a place for it... we all have our own ideas, our own beliefs, our own ways. 

However, stores such as petsmart (one here) have over 50 bettas. some shoved in the back, some already dead and rotting. showcased next to the "goldfish" habitats. 

I highly doubt a petition would make a dent, but you as an individual have all right and all ability to make a change - no matter how small. I for one pointed out to the owner about the dying bettas and I get the severely sick for free, heal them up (or try) and rehome them with a brochure with simple information, and now many people here don't go to stores and ask questions... they ask me. "does my betta need a heater? the lady said I don't as long as I have them next to a window... but since I know you own tons of bettas and they don't die in a couple months you own them you sound like you know what you are doing!" :lol: I may have only dented the store here, and a handful of people in this town

but word of mouth has its ways, and I've taught a few first-time-betta-owners about what to look for, and how to care for them  positive reinforcement VS negative commentary - it does a lot more than people think. 

(for those wondering about those 1 gallon I have, the room is hot and humid, the water is always 76 or higher in the water.)


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

My bettas are often kept in one quart jars in a heated room. They get plenty of interaction with other bettas. It depends on how you care for them. I don't like pet bettas having anything under 3 gallons but since I have tons of bettas I have had to go from one gallon down to one quart for my breeder fish. 

As for them adopting out animals... that's much different than bettas. Bettas are fish, small fish, and most people do not see them on the same level as a dog or cat.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

+1


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Can you please tell that to someone who has bred bettas for quite a while or has kept them for over 40 years, and see there answer? OFL. A respected member of this forum, Advocates the use of one gallon tanks being okay long term given that you provide the bettas requirements such as water quality, cover, heated water, etc. 

I was Also recently in a breeders house/breeding project and saw the setups they kept there bettas in. Most of the tanks were around a gallon and the fish were very healthy. I can show you pictures of the Betta that they sold me if you'd like, he is very healthy and thrived in his little setup

I am a Betta lover too, I loe the fish and appreciate them. I strive to five the the optimal habitat, which can be achieved in anything larger than 1 gallon. Saying that a one gallon is disrespectful in a number of ways considering some of our most experienced members choose to have there bettas In these tanks. I've had my bettas thrive in a tank of this size and have noticed little difference in behaviour between his 16 gallon tank and a 1 gallon tank.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> But the thing is you are not fighting one company like....walmart....you're taking on everyone. the cups are used because they may not have the room to give bettas 5 gallons of cycled, filtered, heated water. bowls, cups, are useful to those companies because the bettas usually sit there for maybe a week. I know here, the manager cut back on how many bettas he got, and they sell within 3-5 days usually. He stopped selling females, which is where I got my 6, which 2 died from severe rot despite progress.


Well, not it's up to silvan, but we were aiming more towards banning tanks under 1 gallon and under, not really getting rid of the betta cups they sell the bettas in per se. We just don't want people taking in bettas and giving them a *"permanent"* home under 1 gallon. They wouldn't need "more room" they'd just stock up on more tanks over 1 gallon and would make room for them by replacing the tanks under 1 gallon with them.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

1 gallon? A one gallon is definitely suitable and I find both very useful for a number of reasons. I find this petition somewhat pointless and stupid, just my opinion and I don't see why you are choosing to make it. I've had bettas thrive in one gallon tanks, they have great personalities and rarely get sick. As long as you provide the optimal requirements, they should thrive and do well, I also love using, and having 1 gallon tanks for quarentine and placing overly aggressive males in, also using for temporary homes

I honestly do not see the point of this petition


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Mo said:


> Can you please tell that to someone who has bred bettas for quite a while or has kept them for over 40 years, and see there answer? OFL. A respected member of this forum, Advocates the use of one gallon tanks being okay long term given that you provide the bettas requirements such as water quality, cover, heated water, etc.
> 
> I was Also recently in a breeders house/breeding project and saw the setups they kept there bettas in. Most of the tanks were around a gallon and the fish were very healthy. I can show you pictures of the Betta that they sold me if you'd like, he is very healthy and thrived in his little setup
> 
> I am a Betta lover too, I loe the fish and appreciate them. I strive to five the the optimal habitat, which can be achieved in anything larger than 1 gallon. Saying that a one gallon is disrespectful in a number of ways considering some of our most experienced members choose to have there bettas In these tanks. I've had my bettas thrive in a tank of this size and have noticed little difference in behaviour between his 16 gallon tank and a 1 gallon tank.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on it. I don't think anything under 2.5 gallons is suitable no matter the quality of care you give them. I wouldn't want to live in such a tiny enclosure my whole life, so I wouldn't do that to my fish.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Mo said:


> 1 gallon? A one gallon is definitely suitable and I find both very useful for a number of reasons. I find this petition somewhat pointless and stupid, just my opinion and I don't see why you are choosing to make it. I've had bettas thrive in one gallon tanks, they have great personalities and rarely get sick. As long as you provide the optimal requirements, they should thrive and do well, I also love using, and having 1 gallon tanks for quarentine and placing overly aggressive males in, also using for temporary homes
> 
> I honestly do not see the point of this petition


1 gallon tanks don't offer a lot of room for bettas to swim around and really explore. You can think of the petition as you'd like, but many others don't agree with keeping them in such small enclosures. There will always be a battle on both sides. Eventually, as justice sees fit, one side will win and that will be the way.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

How do you not care about the quality of life they have, placing a Betta in a very dirty 2.5 gallon is not a very optimal place to live for the Betta sn it's likely to die while it would do much better in a very clean 1 gallon, water quality, cover, feeding, heated water, are all more important than tank size IMO, so saying hat the quality of life doesn't matter can backfire on you as a Betta can live in a high waste content, in maintained 2.5 gallon with non heated, water and a bad diet, by surviving, but would do much better off in a 1 gallon with there optimal requirements


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Can I just point out we are not saying anything about 1gallon tanks, the aim here to start with is to get rid of tanks of under 1gallon. With the proper treatment a 1gallon tank can be maintained, and can be a good home for a betta, what we are saying is not you are wrong with your tanks, but that a betta will thrive "more" the larger the tank it lives in.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

I knew a guy who worked at PetCo and he recommended no less than two gallons for bettas (I drilled him before revealing I was a breeder). He doesn't work there anymore but I wish more stores had employees like that.

A few breeders I used to know worked at PetsMart but were replaced by two idiots who started an argument with me saying bettas would die in bags when they're shipped. As someone who has received many bettas via USPS and seen the unpacking of massive boxes of bettas during shipments from Thailand their stupidity amazed me -_-

At WalMart I met a few employees who had salwater tanks and were pretty smart. Don't work there anymore :/

IME one good way to stop people from buying those tiny tanks is to just stand there looking at products, wait for someone to pass by, then if they make a wrong choice just walk up and talk them out of it. I've managed to point quite a few in the right direction.


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Also having arguments will not get this problem solved, we do not aim to upset other members, we do not aim to annoy other members, and also if you are not interested in helping raise awareness on tanks UNDER 1gallon being unsuitable, then please do not post on this thread as it is detromental to any progress that could be made.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

..


Oldfishlady said:


> IMO/E-1gal is fine for long term keeping for the long fin males-provided that the proper water changes are made to maintain water quality.
> 
> You can safely heat them-I like to use the preset Tetra brand 25w heaters-this will maintain the temp in the 76-82F range more or less- depending on the room temp
> 
> ...


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Mo said:


> How do you not care about the quality of life they have, placing a Betta in a very dirty 2.5 gallon is not a very optimal place to live for the Betta sn it's likely to die while it would do much better in a very clean 1 gallon, water quality, cover, feeding, heated water, are all more important than tank size IMO, so saying hat the quality of life doesn't matter can backfire on you as a Betta can live in a high waste content, in maintained 2.5 gallon with non heated, water and a bad diet, by surviving, but would do much better off in a 1 gallon with there optimal requirements


I don't know why you are using the argument of dirty tanks when I suggested nothing of the sort. People that get "bigger" tanks for their fish generally are much better aware of the requirements for them and know how to keep their tanks cleaned and maintained. It's often the small bowls and 1 gallon and under tanks that end up dirty because they are "cheaper" and more easily obtainable by people that really don't care about the well being of fish and just want them as a cheap "pet" that they don't really know how to take care of.

Consider this, if one person had a 1 gallon tank and didn't clean it regularly and another person had a 5 gallon tank and didn't clean it regularly. They are both bad owners right? Yes, but at least it's "better" that the fish had a bigger environment to thrive in in the second scenario. (Also, in bigger tanks, you don't need to clean them "as often" as say, small bowls, especially if they are cycled.)


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

I am not going to further reply to this thread as its worthless. I was not advocating dirty tanks, I was saying that a one gallon is okay....... I believe you said you don't care about the quality of life of the Betta, but edited it out......
The water volume matters much less than the quality of life which you mentioned you didn't care about before you edited the post where you stated that.

It's hard to be mature when you are stating an opinion as a fact. And saying that a betta at will do much better in a 5 gallon opposed to a one gallon. How the Betta is kept and taken care of depicts how good it will do in tanks of upwards of a gallon (minimum tank size). Is what you are saying from experience? I have done a slightly test and noticed no difference in behaviour between a Betta in a 1 gallon and one on a 16 gallon. Yes. I did use the same Betta for both parts/tank sizes of the experiment.

So you don't care about how a 1 gallon is kept at all? You dont prefer using them? I find this offensive as lots of breeders/experienced keepers/most people on this forum have atleast one 1 gallon tank in use and have a Betta thriving in it, there are also circumstances that you have to take into consideration before stating that a 1 gallon is inideal long term for a Betta as weak swimmers, and blind bettas do well in tanks of this size


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Mo said:


> I am not going to further reply to this thread as its worthless. I was not advocating dirty tanks, I was saying that a one gallon is okay....... I believe you said you don't care about the quality of life of the Betta, but edited it out......


Okay. ._. I never said you were advocating dirty tanks, I put it out there that you were using them in your argument in defense of 1 gallon tanks. But the argument didn't really work because a tank could be dirty no matter what size of the tank. 

You were mistaken. I never said I didn't care about the quality of life of the betta. (If that was true my 5 gallon tank would be really dirty right now. I do weekly cleanings with a gravel vaccum and do the water changes as suggested.) I said I didn't care how good the the tanks for a betta are maintained for under 2.5 gallons as I don't agree with keeping fish in them in general. I don't find the cleanliness to be an argument for keeping them in small tanks. (Though cleaner tanks is always good.)

It would be nice if we could all be a little more mature in our responses, it also doesn't hurt to keep an open mind to what other people say. Your opinions are certainly welcome, though they may not be right, and others may not agree with them though. That goes for both sides too. I know you said you weren't going to post anymore, so I will wish you to have a good day then.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

urg okay guys this thread should be closed. permanently. and any thread like it taken down. this will always become "you're wrong" and "no, YOU'RE wrong" bull argument. this is not what this site is for, to argue with each other. it's to be informed, to opinionate, and work with what you HAVE. some people can only have a 1 gallon, and I know many on here who have wonderful and healthy fish in 1 gallons. this thread has gotten so off track from what the OP was saying about SELLING bowls. 

ON the real subject, if the 1 gallons didn't showcase goldfish, it'd be so much nicer. but everything nowadays is profit. good luck with a petition, but try influencing people around you without being pushy (not that you would be  )

this thread has turned into an insult to breeders and responsible owners who yeah, may not have a 2.5 gallon or a 5 gallon or a 10 gallon... just saying... and I for one will not give this stupid controversial bull any more attention. it'll always go foul.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Double post...


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Lots of different ways to keep this species correctly....so true, lots of information out there...some true, some myths and some based on viewing this awesome creature as a human with feelings and emotions.......as much as we would like it.....a fish just doesn't have the ability to thinks and feel the way we do.....their brain is not wired that way.......that said.....

By understanding the anatomy, physiology and behavior of the fish we keep can help us understand proper care to meet needs

The Betta splendens is a special fish-by that I mean-its man-made-with years of selective breeding to create long flowing colorful fins......the fins are abnormally long and heavy-nothing like what it came from and so care is going to be much different than it will be with its short fin cousin....many people forget this and with the good intention they have...end up with a sick betta with neurotic behaviors and tattered ugly fins in a short time......

Because of these abnormally long fins that can be really heavy and delicate they are kept in small containers with no water movement....as cruel as some may think this is......this is needed to maintain the long flowing fins......

Most males are placed in a small container by the time they are 2 months of age-this is to encourage fin growth and often the reason we want a Betta...the long fins......along with good nutrition and quality water in these small containers-usually by the time they are 6-8 months old-fins are nearly 80% grown and they are ready to be sold.....

Understand-this long fin male has been in a small container for nearly 8 months-it has long heavy fins-due to space it also has limited muscle mass.....Now the Betta is brought home and feeling sorry for the Betta being in such a small container we toss it in a large volume of water with a filter.......soon we start to see either tattered fins, neurotic behaviors like tail biting, glass surfing, depression...etc.......

Its not that a long heavy fin male can't be placed in a large container of water....they can......and some male can go from the temporary cup to a large tank without any issue.....but some can't...or at least right away....sometimes-some need to be moved in steps.......temporary cup to 1gal-then 2gal-5gal...etc......get the picture.......and some may never be able to keep their long fins in anything larger than a 1gal container or be able to tolerate a filter/water movement without being stressed....when stressed-this can compromise the immune response and this is when you see-Ich, fin rot, lethargy, clamp fins, hiding, poor appetite...etc......sometimes it will resolve on it own and other times it doesn't......

Think of it like......swimming with a 50 pound weight strapped on your back....once you build strength and muscle you can do it much easier....

The flag flapping in the wind......this is what happens to the long delicate fins that are used in a lot of space and water movement......until they toughen up...some do and some don't......this can be related to genetic, age, health, nutrition...etc......

This is just a few reasons why you see/hear about so many different tank size requirement for this species......

Irregardless of tank size.....a Betta can be neglected in a 10gal tank just as they can be neglected in a small tank.......this falls on the hobbyist......

To be a good keeper of fish you must first be a good keeper of water and understand how they interact.....

Bettas don't need large spaces or filters...they do need quality water of tropical temps...

Bettas don't create as much waste and ammonia as some may think...

Starting your Betta in a 1gal container without a filter making twice weekly water changes of 1-50% and 1-100% will maintain water quality, fin health, help build antibodies and a strong immune response, provided that the fish is not over feed and uneaten food is removed within a reasonable time.....

Once the Betta is doing well in the 1gal-then move it to a larger tank in steps to his tolerance or keep it in the 1gal-2gal unfiltered tank.....the longer the fins the less problems you will have by keeping them in smaller containers as long as you provide proper care and nutrition....

Yes, fish like to swim....but think back to that 50 pound weight strapped on your back and remember this is a man-made fish with special needs......if your Betta is stressed, depressed, tail biting, glass surfing, stops eating, can't hold its fins, chronic fin problems etc..... in that 5-10gal filtered tank....try a unfiltered smaller tank.......

Nutrition is often not taken into account and the cheapest food is fed......with a Betta....you need to find the very best quality of several different kinds of foods...pellets, flakes, frozen, freeze dried and live.....they don't have to be Betta specific foods....you do want to find food with the first few ingredients that are fish/seafood either whole or meal....feed small frequent meals....what one food is missing the other food may have........

Nitrogen cycle-you can't establish the nitrogen cycle with out filtration and the Betta doesn't really need filtration.....yes, filtration and the nitrogen cycle will make water change needs easier for the hobbyist...but not so much for the Betta......and due to the limited surface area in small tanks the nitrogen cycle isn't that stable anyway and you still need to make twice weekly water changes to maintain water quality.......

Live plants can be the answer provided that you have the proper lights to support the plants.....thats another chapter........

By understanding the Betta and its long heavy fins.......tank size, filtration, water quality, nutrition...etc......you can maintain those long fins many of us love and one of the reason we keep them for a very long time......

Enjoy....thats what its all about.......

Here is a link to that thread.....
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=78317


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## Jessicatm137 (Mar 22, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> urg okay guys this thread should be closed. permanently. and any thread like it taken down. this will always become "you're wrong" and "no, YOU'RE wrong" bull argument. this is not what this site is for, to argue with each other. it's to be informed, to opinionate, and work with what you HAVE. some people can only have a 1 gallon, and I know many on here who have wonderful and healthy fish in 1 gallons. this thread has gotten so off track from what the OP was saying about SELLING bowls.


Yes please close the this thread, it would be best for everyone.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> urg okay guys this thread should be closed. permanently. and any thread like it taken down. this will always become "you're wrong" and "no, YOU'RE wrong" bull argument. this is not what this site is for, to argue with each other. it's to be informed, to opinionate, and work with what you HAVE. some people can only have a 1 gallon, and I know many on here who have wonderful and healthy fish in 1 gallons. this thread has gotten so off track from what the OP was saying about SELLING bowls.
> 
> ON the real subject, if the 1 gallons didn't showcase goldfish, it'd be so much nicer. but everything nowadays is profit. good luck with a petition, but try influencing people around you without being pushy (not that you would be  )
> 
> this thread has turned into an insult to breeders and responsible owners who yeah, may not have a 2.5 gallon or a 5 gallon or a 10 gallon... just saying... and I for one will not give this stupid controversial bull any more attention. it'll always go foul.


I feel you are using a rather negative tone. If you take what I say as an insult that is unfortunate because I was not attacking anyone personally, just expressing my concern and opinion on the matter.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

My last post here, if you wish to do this. DO IT. The facts we have presented show 1 gallon is okay for keeping bettas however you have the upper hand in saying 5 gallons is optimal (I 100% agree, I love my five gallons). Good luck


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## carzz (Mar 8, 2011)

The way I look at it, in an ideal world, there would be no 1 gallon bowls, or 10 gallon tanks. All fish would be in the rivers and the seas. Buts, we all live here and we can all agree on one thing: our world is far from ideal. When I see someone with a 1 gallon bowl that has a nice set up, Clean water and a heater, and above all, a happy fish? I praise them. Is is not better then those god awful cups they come in? 
And when you also look at the bigger picture, have you ever seen those disgusting turtle and goldfish keychains? Compared to those, a half gallon is not so bad. But would I ever purchase one? No. However, I just think of what life might be like for some bettas and like to think that they have life pretty good. That's all


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Everyone has the right to their opinion....A healthy debate with diverse opinion is a good thing as long as we keep it friendly.......


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

carzz said:


> The way I look at it, in an ideal world, there would be no 1 gallon bowls, or 10 gallon tanks. All fish would be in the rivers and the seas. Buts, we all live here and we can all agree on one thing: our world is far from ideal. When I see someone with a 1 gallon bowl that has a nice set up, Clean water and a heater, and above all, a happy fish? I praise them. Is is not better then those god awful cups they come in?
> And when you also look at the bigger picture, have you ever seen those disgusting turtle and goldfish keychains? Compared to those, a half gallon is not so bad. But would I ever purchase one? No. However, I just think of what life might be like for some bettas and like to think that they have life pretty good. That's all


Me too. I would love it if all fish could be in their natural habitats, hence why I only adopt fish and don't buy from petstores. Yes you can adopt fish ! Petfinder and other sites have fish you can actually adopt from people that are looking to get rid of their fish. It actually makes me happy that some people choose not to just flush them down when they didn't want them anymore. I couldn't possibly fly the fishies to the tropics and let them all go, but I can certainly give those who are looking for a new home, a good home here. 

And yes you are right, there are certainly worse environments for a fish to be in than a 1 gallon bowl that is well maintained, but to me, that's still not a viable reason to have a 1 gallon.


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

Oldfishlady said:


> Everyone has the right to their opinion....A healthy debate with diverse opinion is a good thing as long as we keep it friendly.......


I agree, though I felt as some were starting to get a bit edgy. I try to keep mature and polite, without resorting to personal attacks, like "you are a bad person" for this or that. That's just not the way to go about anything


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm sorry I'm now not posting anymore on this thread as it will get nowhere, I have to agree with the others 1everaspirit, the way you're going about this is rather aggressive, and I wont be party to that


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## 4everaspirit (Dec 19, 2011)

BeckyFish97 said:


> I'm sorry I'm now not posting anymore on this thread as it will get nowhere, I have to agree with the others 1everaspirit, the way you're going about this is rather aggressive, and I wont be party to that


I really don't see how I'm being aggressive. I'm not attacking anyone personally, just sharing my opinion on the matter. I always try to keep polite and mature in my responses. If people take things the wrong way or choose to take what I say as a personal attack to them (maybe that also reflects some sort of feeling of guilt? ._. Could be a good thing and lead people to make changes, who knows?), I feel like that's more of their doing o_o

I must say though, I have spent a whole lot of time on this thread. I think it's time I get off and go do something else xD Get some exercise or something.

Please take care everyone. And I hope, Sivan, that you are successful with starting your petition.


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## KadenJames (Mar 23, 2012)

I went into a pet store one time to purchase a Tiger Oscar for my boyfriend, replacing his who recently passed away. My browsing of the oscars was abruptly stopped by a pet store associate, who approached me arms crossed and firmly asked "Are you planning on purchasing one of these oscars?" A little put off by his uppity tone of voice, I said "Yes... I am. Thank you- " "Well what sized tank do you own?" He interrupted. I turned to face him and said "Well, its actually for my boyfriend, and he has a 125 gallon aquarium. Is that big enough for your approval, sir?" (Now, I'm not ever a rude person, but after a long day of everything going wrong, I wasn't exactly in the mood to be put on trial before buying a fish.) His expression changed immediately and he proceeded to silently scoop out my Oscar and letting me leave.


The more I thought about it, the less angry I was at this associate. His stern and defensive attitude, although a bit obnoxious, would stop any novice fish owner for picking an Oscar and keeping it in a tiny, unheated bowl. The oscars they sell at stores are babies, and not a lot of customers know just how large they grow (easily over 14 inches.) Those who do try and buy them are not only confronted with defensive sales clerks, but can also read the tag below the fish that reads "Intermediate level, 75 gallon + heated filtered tank." 

If only the store associates would have the same level of protection over the bettas. The world would be such a better place for them. I honestly don't believe that they have a dislike for bettas or don't care about them, they are simply not informed of their proper care and start blabbing what they _think_ they know about the species- and this is where the common assumption comes from that bettas are hunkey dorey in unheated tiny bowls. I think if your petition gets enough attention, and enough people forward it on to friends / family, THAT many more people are now aware. THAT many more people will refuse to buy a teeny tiny home for their Betta.

And, who knows, maybe someday in the near future when I go into a pet store to buy a new Betta, an uppity and defensive sales clerk will demand to know what kind of home I have planned for it. And to that, my only reply will be a huge grin.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Wow, how did I miss this wonderful thread? Lol. I keep my bettas in 1 to 2.5 gallon containers. No I'm not abusing my fish as was told to me by someone from a forum that shall remain anonymous. I feel that if a fish is unhappy it will show it.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I think its time to say....we agree to disagree......and move on.....


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## newarkhiphop (Apr 22, 2011)

I have all of my betta in one gallon tanks, i see nothing wrong with a well heated, well filtered one gallon tank.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

For the record, I want to say that *I do believe that 1 gallon tanks are 100% workable and that betta fish can thrive in them if they are properly kept.*

1 gallon tanks just require a lot of work and many people do not want to or have time to put that amount of work into them. Sure, a 50% water change during the week and another 100% water change during the week does not sound like a lot but it is for people like me who, for example, have unsteady schedules that require being up early and returning home very late at night with many projects or commitments to balance either afterward or throughout the week. If someone has the *drive, ability, time, and patience* to work with 1 gallon tanks then by all means they should use them if they are preferred! 

Tanks under 1 gallon, however, should not be sold. Most people do not plan on breeding show bettas or housing more than a few, though usually they plan on just one. 1/2 gallon tanks are tiny and build ammonia very fast. They are considered animal cruelty in the UK. Even worse are 0.3 gallon tanks, which are *less* than some PetSmart cups at maximum capacity. Aside from ammonia, exercise is denied and it is almost impossible to heat the tank unless you happen to live in a location that does not let the water drop under 75 degrees even at night. 

Because of the impracticalities of tanks *less* than 1 gallon for the *average betta caretaker*, I believe they should be made illegal for sale for pet care purposes. If there are uses for very small tanks that breeders would need then I would say that those tanks should either be sold as a specialty item in a specialty shop or labelled correctly in pet stores and not advertised as the "ideal betta home" for the typical betta pet. This thought would have to be discussed by breeders, though, and their thoughts/imput must be equally heard.

As for the thread I feel like it has become derailed. I think it is healthy to debate the practicality of such tanks but only through the use of fact and support, not personal attacks or pure opinion.


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## Mo (Mar 15, 2012)

Sorry for not keeping my promise but I thought that the OP should take a look at this




ZergyMonster said:


> Mine is in a 1.8 gallon. My mother hates having fish tanks in her house. (I used to live by myself but came home because of financial issues.) I have two 10 gallons and my betta tank.





djembekah said:


> mine are both in 1 gallons and seem to be happy so far! i am planning my 29 gallon tank though!





DragonTheBetta said:


> Dragon is in a 1 gallon and seems like he couldn't be happier!





a123andpoof said:


> I have a 1 gallon a 2.5 gallon and a 10 gallon divided 3 ways. All are very happy fish!





Myates said:


> With multiple fish and bettas, among other living creatures in and around my home- I keep my bettas in different sizes ranging from 1-3 gallons.. Once we find a larger home we all can agree on, then can upgrade to larger tanks, along with sororities and a breeding set up.
> But for now all are perfectly happy and healthy and I am not as squashed for space





JBosley said:


> Dragonfly is in a 2 gallon critter keeper  His fins are FINALLY re-growing! I prefer smaller tanks, and my guy doesn't seem to mind.





JBosley said:


> Have you seen the critter keeper stick? It tells you sizes based on measurements. The measurements are on petsmarts website! I also have one from petsmart, mine is 2 gallons





Luimeril said:


> my smallest tanks are one gallon. i have Lulu in one, and Pyro in the other. Lulu, because she stresses in anything bigger, Pyro because i was trying to stop him from pacing. it..... didn't work. :I





newarkhiphop said:


> 1 in a one gallon aqueon
> 1 in a one gallon petco kritter
> 1 in a two gallon
> 
> planning on rescuing a blue and white marble halfmoon tommrrow, going to keep him in a one gallon petco kritter keeper too





Hopeseeker said:


> Both boys are in 1.8 gallon aquariums and I just started buying stuff for a 15 gallon sorority!!!!





Pitluvs said:


> The minimum I have right now is my two hospital tanks, a 0.25g (0.5g filled halfway) and a 1.5g for my perma floater Kris. But as for healthy Bettas, 2.65g and 3.3g is what I have for the other 8 males.





Tikibirds said:


> I have one guy in a 1.5ish gallon storage container. oddly he is more active and colored up more then in the 3G


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## Jessicatm137 (Mar 22, 2012)

Can we *please* close the thread or let it die off now? No offense to anyone, but as Mo posted, many people have one gallon tanks with happy Bettas, but we all have our opinions.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

To the OP, I didn't read the entire thread because we've had many like this before, and a few people on this forum wanted to start some sort of betta boutique kind of thing where they only stored bettas in 2.5+ gallons minimum.

If anybody here has taken any business course in their life, they will know it is not optimal in a business sense to keep bettas in their store larger than their cups. It is the idea of it being cost-effective (NOT because they want more money in their pockets, that is different). The reason is because they can only be kept in solitary confinement. Other community fish can have hundreds squashed into a single tank so the "bulk" will cover the cost of maintaining the 20Gal at the store. If you were to have a bunch of 1 gallon+ heated filtered tanks with bettas in the store, they will have to charge something around $40-50 EACH just to cover the costs of running their solitary tanks.

As for selling small tanks and allegedly promoting cruelty, that is a different story. I would much prefer people to be EDUCATED on how to care for a small tank, rather than just trying to abolish them. Some people simply do not have the physical space to have 5 gallons scattered about the place, you cannot tell these people that they are "unworthy" of owning a betta because they're being cruel. Dramaqueen and OFL and many other people on this forum take fantastic care of their bettas in 1 gallon.

Going back to the business side of it, it is actually more cost-effective for an owner to purchase a larger tank (smaller gallonrice ratio) but the majority of people who purchase fish are primarily uneducated on the proper care techniques a small tank requires. Compounding this on top of the primarily uneducated LPS employees and you have your problem. Many people think a smaller tank is less work when it is actually the reverse.

*Education is the answer*, not starting some sort of revolution against large companies because a few people don't agree with 1 gallon tanks.


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## lilyth88 (Mar 15, 2012)

I think the issue isn't about 1 gallons. I think it's about *less than one gallons.* I mean.. do any of us think these are okay??



















And this last one is only 1 pint (0.125 gallons...)









*These* are the ones that should *not* be sold next to bettas. None of these can be heated safely. None of these are acceptable. These are the ones that should be targeted. 

Couldn't the pet stores house their bettas in barracks inside their larger tanks? That way the filtration is already there. They'd get more space as well, because it would clear up shelving space for other products.

That's my two-cents.


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

well, I'm going to agree that in a better world, no one would want to put their betta in something like a betta bowl. At our store, I encourage people to find the biggest thing they can for their fish, and sometimes I even recommend large jars and vases if they already have a betta, because it's inexpensive and will get their fish one- to two gallons of space. (no peace lillies, please....)
I don't think it's wrong to put out a petition with the intent of trying to change people's minds about tiny betta bowls and other such things. Perhaps getting a petition started that swings positive- getting people to agree to provide an adequate living arrangement for their betta. This is a heated topic and, sadly, what constitutes cruelty in the eyes of the law for a fish is pretty limited. 
But getting folks to sign on to a positive message alienates less people. Get kids to do a show-and- tell on the best ways to give a betta more room. Speak with your local library about doing an afternoon talk. Set up a table at a town event and get people to spread the word about bigger tanks and jars. Start a facebook page and post pictures of happy betta in cool homes. Positive reinforcement goes a long way in changing a longstanding trend.
For me, I have one guy in a 6.6 gallon, another in a 3 gallon, and a recovering fin-biter in a plastic shoebox set up like a riverbed...the water is only 6 or seven inches deep, but it's longer and wider than my three gallon, so he has lots of swimming room, plants and rocks to play with. And I'm always up on the water changes so he has a crystal-clear river...heh.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I agree with Bahamut about the 1 gallon containers. It's a matter of taking care of them properly. If I had to keep them in 5 gallons or larger then I'd only have like 3 bettas. lol No where to put large tanks.IMO fish are going to get sick, whether they're kept in 10 gallon heated, filtered tanks or a 1 gallon bowl.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

dramaqueen said:


> I agree with Bahamut about the 1 gallon containers. It's a matter of taking care of them properly. If I had to keep them in 5 gallons or larger then I'd only have like 3 bettas. lol No where to put large tanks.IMO fish are going to get sick, whether they're kept in 10 gallon heated, filtered tanks or a 1 gallon bowl.


So sorry 
I agree it matter of taking care of. I see so many people have problems with 10 gall or 6 gall with filter and heater, cycling or not cycling. 

And if not 1 gall i would not able to have bettas at work. I have 3 bettas now at work. I can't keep bigger tanks at work, but I change their water regularly.They also pretty old bettas lol


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Personally I see nothing wrong with a gallon tank to house a betta fish. I keep most of my betta's in mason jars and they are under a gallon. I do daily water changes and my fish are happy and healthy. I have seen no depression or any kind of negative effects of keeping my fish in these small containers. Since my betta's come from huge 55 gallon grow out tanks, and then move to mason jars, I think I have the experience to know if less space has a negative effect on a betta's personality. After practicing this method repeatedly I can say confidently that the amount of swimming space is not what determines the health or happiness of your betta fish. Water cleanliness, nutrition and social interaction is what determines your betta's moods and health. 

Personally I think it's wrong to impose your personal beliefs on others. I will not sign a petition that infringes on other people's ability to make their own choices. Having a betta in a one gallon is not wrong, having old water is wrong. The issue is keeping clean water, not keeping a larger container. 

This world is full of all kinds of people and there is enough room for all of us to practice our own beliefs without imposing ourselves on others.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

+1
I personally think it matter of experience. I have 4 bettas now. I do only 100% water changes which some people think it stressful. And my bettas never even get sick yet. My youngest betta i bought 06/11. Other i bought about 2.8 years ago. They in 2 gall thought.

 And now my 4th ,new betta in one gall for four weeks and doing great. I do 100% water changes every 2 days and I don't see any sign of the stress. 

Just like someone wrote bettas get sick in one gall or in 10 gall. With 100% water changes or if you will cycle. I also think some bettas more hardy then other, just like human. Someone can get mononucleosis and don’t even feel it, some have it in very complicated form.


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## ZackyBear (Dec 1, 2011)

But there are a lot of people who don't have the kind of dedication that you do, Bettas_Rule  

I agree with this and I don't. A lot of people say they are 'just fish' and treat them as decorations. Others say the opposite and give them all of their time and dedication. It really depends on the person whether or not a 1 gallon containter/tank is a home or a hell for a betta.

If only we had the same rule as the UK where anything under 2 gallons is illegal to sell since it is considered animal cruelty....

Wait, that IS the UK, right?


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

It's true that not everyone is as dedicated as others. To those people I would recommend going with a larger tank.


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## Tamyu (Mar 17, 2012)

4everaspirit said:


> I see your point. But I think tackling one thing at a time would be better. I don't see how stores could heat the cups they sell the bettas in. They would have to get tanks for all the bettas they have and keep them heated. (Which would be nice, but I highly doubt they would. Space is money to them.)


All of my local shops heat their betta bowls when the ambient temperature is below around 76. They just sit the cups on a flat heating pad set to 80 something. It doesn't take extra space, so I can't see why all shops couldn't do it. Actually, now that I think about it, they probably turn them on at night during all seasons as the pads are always there.
I have even seen a really interesting set up with the cups sitting in two lines in a shallow tray - there was a heater in the tray water, and a filter sucked water from the tray and dripped it from two long bars into the mesh covered cups. The cups had holes around the edge maybe a cm from the top and water slowly drained out of them when the level rose. But this was a very nice shop with high quality betta on sale (US$20+) - anyway though, it can be done without sacrificing lots of shelf space.

I think that instead of small tanks being targetted, the lack of education about what is necessary for betta care should be targetted. It isn't the small tanks being sold that is the problem, it is shops and "common knowledge" pushing the idea that bettas don't need heat or a clean living space. 

My pair are in larger tanks, but I also believe a one gallon (or even less - *gasp*) can be a good home for a betta. But it is a matter of care. A betta plunked in a rarely cleaned five gallon with no heater and fed random "fish flakes" is going to have a lot more trouble that a warm betta in a 0.5 gallon given lots of water changes and proper nutrition.


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## BettaFishLuver (Feb 5, 2012)

Instead of signing a petition, like most people said, why don't we just educate and spread our knowledge of heaters, filters, ect to other people. One gallon bowls can be a nice cozy home for a betta. I disagree with the banning of the 1 gallon or under tanks, I personally think that is ridiculous. I moved my betta from a 1.8 gallon to a 10 gallon 3 weeks ago and honestly I don't see any difference, he is still the same happy betta. Focus on spreading the joys of having a happy and healthy betta. I guarantee if you ask 10 people off the street the question "Do betta fish need a heater?" 9 out of 10 would answer no. I don't think it's a lack of care but more of lack of knowledge. To people fish are just fish and they want to spend the least amount possible. Which is why pet stores lure people in by cheap set-ups. Not to be negative or anything but you are never going to stop fish from being put in disturbing small bowls but we can reduce that risk by giving good explanations and advice to other people.


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## lexylex0526 (Dec 27, 2011)

I think that a 1 gallon is the bare minimum for a betta, if it has a small heater and water condtions are kept well. I think the REAL problem is the things that are smaller then that like as people have mentioned betta bubbles, 1/2 gallon tanks and those tiny betta cubes. I sincerely wish that pet stores wouldn't cell those torture chambers, maybe we could start a petition somehow. I think if you started an online petition and got enough signatures you could send the petition to pet stores in your area or maybe even the pet stores "main headquarters".


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I really don't think coorporate offices would pay any attention to petitions.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

It's all about money. Its a similar thing in the music industry, like Melbourne shufflers being mad at LMFAO for stealing their dance, LMFAO doesn't care since they're making money.

Same thing with bettas. Corporate doesn't care about bettas. All they care about is the money they bring in.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

ZackyBear said:


> If only we had the same rule as the UK where anything under 2 gallons is illegal to sell since it is considered animal cruelty....
> 
> Wait, that IS the UK, right?


The rule is anything under 1 gallon, which should be the case here. They are deemed inappropriate because of inadequate swimming space, inability to heat properly, and inability to provide properly maintained water conditions.

THAT is what I will propose a petition for--stricter regulations about enforcing animal cruelty in regards to fish. Under 1 gallon = inappropriate.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

ZackyBear said:


> But there are a lot of people who don't have the kind of dedication that you do, Bettas_Rule


If someone doesn't have the dedication to keep clean water for their fish, it wont matter how big the tank is. They will still be lazy about cleaning the water. My 10 gallon tanks are MUCH harder to keep up with than my jars. Bigger tanks don't mean healthier water or less work.



> If only we had the same rule as the UK where anything under 2 gallons is illegal to sell since it is considered animal cruelty....
> 
> Wait, that IS the UK, right?


Thank god I live in America, the home of the free! :-D 
Free to be a responsible adult, that can be trusted to take care of my fish no matter how small the housing.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

lilyth88 said:


> I think the issue isn't about 1 gallons. I think it's about *less than one gallons.* I mean.. do any of us think these are okay??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How big is the last one?! I saw two of those in a second hand store, with goldfish food :roll: stupid thing it was. I would not even stick a plant in it  literally it would be like me having a betta in a coffee cup :lol: looks silly and the fish can kiss their own tail end :roll:


Did you know? Most petitions fail because of lack of research. People don't want someone coming to knock on their door, ask "you have a betta?" then being told they are wrong and stupid :roll: no matter how it is put it will come to sound like that, even if it is not meant that way. People in this town, a lot of them realized I know what I am doing (most of the time xD) and they ask me, not some store associate. They'll upgrade, they get heaters, they make the trip to edmonton for something walmart and this store doesn't have... because I explain to them why their fish die, or why their fish are sick. I also take their sick fish and explain to them why they get better :roll: But I never say "because you're doing it wrong" I say "because stores tend to sell "goldfish and betta habitats" which are harder to clean, a heater takes up most of the space, and a heater could accidentally overheat and kill the fish." Then they are interested to why bettas need heaters, why goldfish need 30+ tanks usually (depending on the kind of goldie) etc. I had my Oscar in the 20 temporarily so I could get the 80 finished and I personally cannot imagine permanently housing a goldie in there x.x messy... even with double filtration exceeding the tank size


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> I never say "because you're doing it wrong" I say "because stores tend to sell "goldfish and betta habitats" which are harder to clean, a heater takes up most of the space, and a heater could accidentally overheat and kill the fish." Then they are interested to why bettas need heaters, why goldfish need 30+ tanks usually (depending on the kind of goldie) etc.


This. I find that most people really do want to do right by their little finned friends but haven't the first idea how to properly provide for a fish. A little friendly advice given in a nice tone works wonders. I've steered quite a few folks to one gallon or more tanks and away from 16oz betta jars. Now, some folk will not care no matter what you do, because to them fish are just something to dip in batter. The best you can do is encourage them to do more frequent water changes (or buy their betta from them :roll: )
Interestingly, I was checking out another forum where some poor soul was asking advice on getting a tank, as he wanted to get the proper fish and tanks size. He was berated by several folk for even considering keeping any fish in an aquarium under 20 gallons. Some posters even said five gallon tanks were only good for snails and shrimp. Just shows that aquarium size will continue to be a heated (yet necessary) discussion...


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

you mean yahooanswers? xDD I try to nudge them to this site because we are more accepting. I've even been stopped in the pet store by a customer (ummm I do not work there!) and asked about any fish... If I know, I'll tell them. If I don't, I direct them to the manager who knows. Or his wife.

I stand by saying, if you are willing to do MORE work for a SMALL tank, get one. If you'd rather LESS work for a LARGER tank, get one. I tell people about 5 gallons and up cycling, making it easier to clean and easier on the fish.


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> I stand by saying, if you are willing to do MORE work for a SMALL tank, get one. If you'd rather LESS work for a LARGER tank, get one. I tell people about 5 gallons and up cycling, making it easier to clean and easier on the fish.


Yep. Cleaning my smaller tanks is actually a relaxing thing. It takes me out of the stress of the day and allows me to focus on making my boys happy. :thumbsup: It's good for us both.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Ramble said:


> Yep. Cleaning my smaller tanks is actually a relaxing thing. It takes me out of the stress of the day and allows me to focus on making my boys happy. :thumbsup: It's good for us both.


I agree! Cleaning my jarred fish is very relaxing and allows me to sort out my thoughts and ideas, while simultaneously making me feel better that my fish are happy and healthy.

While I only have to clean my ten gallon tanks twice a week, I have to siphon out the waste and wipe all the glass, then clean the dividers and the filter. Then I have to fill a five gallon bucket treat it, and fill the tank back up. So yea I prefer to clean the smaller ones LOL.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: really? I like my bigger ones haha... then again I'd rather put my mellow ones in smaller tanks because they don't panic when they are moved :roll:


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## BettaFishLuver (Feb 5, 2012)

Sivan said:


> The rule is anything under 1 gallon, which should be the case here. They are deemed inappropriate because of inadequate swimming space, inability to heat properly, and inability to provide properly maintained water conditions.
> 
> THAT is what I will propose a petition for--stricter regulations about enforcing animal cruelty in regards to fish. Under 1 gallon = inappropriate.


I have to disagree. Like someone mentioned earlier it doesn't matter if the person gets a 10 gallon tank, if they don't care for the tank it will be just as a betta hell as a 1 gallon. People have rights and it is not animal cruelty as long as you take care of it properly. People seem to have exaggerated the meaning of "animal cruelty." I don't mean to offend anyone but my meaning of animal cruelty is way different. I don't classify it as "abuse."

That's just my opinion


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Agreed. any of my 1 gallons (and anything under) would be cleaned accordingly to size. any of my small tanks without heaters are in the fish room which btw is at 78 degrees itself, being humid. I got away with it because it is a spare room xD Sure some of my bettas have 20 and 10 gallons, but the ones in smaller tanks are just as healthy :3

can I ask how you will enforce this? let's say, there are 2000 people who are fish lovers and will do anything to enforce a law for fish. Now that is per country/county, and there's 5000 let's say out of that place... You'll never win the approval of the 3000 people, who either do not own fish or don't care. Why do you think in Alberta here, any idiot saying they want to take away our health care gets beaten down and always loses :roll: If you cannot please the LARGE amount of people, you won't have much to go on.

Which is why I say start small... Start somewhere. Diving into something as serious and time consuming (and money consuming in some cases) as a petition, including the government in your cases, court, law, etc, you're bound to fall flat on your face, especially without anyone backing you up, or having more people angry than happy.

The market is for money, and as much as most people would love to get let's say....5 gallons... that is more expensive than a 1 gallon bowl. people aren't made of money. But they do have rights. And with those rights, and freedom of speech, and freedom to do what they please as long as it is according to the law, you cannot take away that freedom of ownership - fish, bowl, tank. doesn't matter. They'd sooner ban betta fish then ban bowls. Then your stuck with more people with goldies.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

BettaFishLuver said:


> I have to disagree. Like someone mentioned earlier it doesn't matter if the person gets a 10 gallon tank, if they don't care for the tank it will be just as a betta hell as a 1 gallon. People have rights and it is not animal cruelty as long as you take care of it properly. People seem to have exaggerated the meaning of "animal cruelty." I don't mean to offend anyone but my meaning of animal cruelty is way different. I don't classify it as "abuse."
> 
> That's just my opinion


+1 also Sena you are right


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I know you want to make a difference for "all" bettas, at least in usa/canada or whatever, but that's a high attempt... Like some of us have already mentioned, at least do something in your community. I'm "that betta person" :roll: :lol: I get people to buy heaters, maybe a 1.5 if they can (better than nothing), explain to them about what they ask (usually starts with..." Why...?" ) And I've seen a lot of people instead going to edmonton for either the fish, supplies, or both, with the information I gave them and the warning that the associates will probably give false information.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

BettaFishLuver said:


> I have to disagree. Like someone mentioned earlier it doesn't matter if the person gets a 10 gallon tank, if they don't care for the tank it will be just as a betta hell as a 1 gallon. People have rights and it is not animal cruelty as long as you take care of it properly. People seem to have exaggerated the meaning of "animal cruelty." I don't mean to offend anyone but my meaning of animal cruelty is way different. I don't classify it as "abuse."
> 
> That's just my opinion


For me, it is not just about cleaning the tank. Anything *under* 1 gallon is almost impossible to heat, which means the fish gets neglected. There is a difference between animal abuse and neglect. 

If it was a dog instead of a fish, for example, and the dog owner was keeping their dog in a cage JUST large enough for it to walk in circles in and fed it properly, cleaned its waster, did everything else properly...people would say its cruelty. The dog would have no room to live life. It would survive and if upkeep was done it would live its full life but it would not be in ideal conditions.

Just because people have rights, that does not mean that they should be able to buy anything. There need to be restrictions so the product is safe.

The United Kingdom's RSPCA enforces the ideas of the Animal Welfare Act of 2006, which protects fish equally. Under that law, fish owners have to provide a "suitable environment" that meets the fish's needs and the group emphasizes that "overcrowding fish in a small volume of water will lead to high levels of harmful chemicals such as ammonia and nitrite, which can poison the fish and cause disease or even death." Here is an article they wrote against decorative tanks that are small: http://www.rspca.org.uk/media/news/story/-/article/Fashion_fish_tanks

Australia's RSPCA also condemns small tanks. It states that "while it is possible for Siamese fighting fish to survive a short while in a small tank, this is not an appropriate environment for permanent housing." In addition to worries about ammonia and nitrite, they state "small tanks cannot hold the correct temperature required for tropical fish, and do not provide sufficient space for exercise or behavioural stimulation, both of which are fundamental in providing a healthy, stress-free environment." Here is their article: http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-sort-of-environment-should-Siamese-fighting-fish-be-kept-in_440.html

Two English-speaking major countries are against small tanks, which are those under 1 gallon. While I cannot find the specific law banning tanks under 1 gallon, I have been told while I was living in England that tanks under 1 gallon are illegal and did not see any when in pet stores. The United States and Canada should follow their footsteps. Unfortunately, the culture here is to disregard the value of life in regards to fish. Aquatic life is seen as less than land-based life, so enforcing cruelty or neglect laws rarely occurs.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

eh, I leave it at "good luck with that". Especially when I use 1 gallons... like lil' Fiona is floating in the sorority in a 1 gallon so she can heal up but has a good temperature (78) for water...

And then you'll need breeders to have permits and proove they can use jars and then and then and then :roll:

It's nice that some places say nothing beneath whatever amount, but this petition will fall, I personally wouldn't sign it because 1 gallon is easier to medicate some of the sick fish I get for free from the store, and good for chronic SBD bettas which yes, exist and live long lives! I don't expect someone to find a 5 gallon that is 4 inches deep, and however long and wide. That'd be a neat tank xD but non-existent.

This is starting to sound like PETA. "how would YOU feel being milked?! Think how a cow feels..." a cow needs to be milked btw >.>


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a ban on bowls *under* 1 gallon here in the US. I prefer keeping my Bettas is nothing smaller than 2.5 gallons, but a lot of people that use 1 gallons properly don't have problems. Anything under 1 gallon I personally view as cruel confinement. 

Again, just my two cents.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

I personally won't use anything under 1g, but I do enjoy being able to purchase tanks under 1g for hospital tanks. But I am one of those who believes as long as the water is taken care of, anything over 1g is fine with me (as long as the person is willing to upgrade when they can). But that's just my $0.02.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Can I ask..... why a petition against bowls?

Okay, so the stores stop selling bowls. Hoorah!!

Now, let's say I am a betta-wanter who knows nothing about bettas and sees my friend has one in a bowl. I go to find one.

I go to walmart. Hey look! Those vases look perfect! I bet my new fish would love it. It's fairly big, and room to swim up and down.

:-( I'd literally rather a person buy a 1 gallon bowl then something than is very very thin (not made for water), or a vase which is harder for bettas to breath in because of depth


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Again, I have nothing against 1 gallon tanks. Tanks *under* 1 gallons are my concern. 

For me, I don't care if it is round or square. The fact of it being a bowl is not the issue. The volume is and quite frankly, I've never seen a 1 gallon vase. Vases are meant for flowers, not fish. They should not be labelled for fish.

I too would rather somebody purchase a 1 gallon tank over a vase. I would rather them purchase a 1 gallon that they will take care of over a 5 gallon that they will not take care of. As I stated before, tanks *under* 1 gallon cannot be heated and smaller amounts of water cool faster than large amounts. Temperature can drop 10 degrees over night, making tanks with *less than 1 gallon* dangerous and deadly for fish. 

I am sure a person could manage to keep a betta alive and active in a coffe mug, with enough time and dedication. However, I would be 100% against that and would demand that stores not sell coffee mugs as tanks. There are other factors aside cleanliness, although that does play a huge role. By banning the sale of tanks that are less than 1 gallon, more betta fish will be placed in proper sized homes. The line has to be drawn somewhere and, quite frankly, I am getting sick of small tanks that hold less than 1 gallon--sometimes less than 1/2 gallon--being pushed for betta fish.

I find it cruel because most people are not breeders. Most people plan to keep them as pets and most people are not willing to change water more often than you have to for a 1 gallon.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Again, Sivan, education would be the more appropriate method of handling this. As Sena said, nothing is stopping people from going out and buying a little vase from walmart or something.

If you educate people instead and say: "Hey, look. If you buy a bigger tank, not only will it look nice, your fish will be happier, and you will have to clean it less often than that little bowl you're getting"

You can't FORCE companies to just STOP SELLING < 1G tanks. You will then have to take this silly petition to the manufacturing, processing, and industrial companies that create supplies for these tanks.

Not only is education much simpler (relatively, mind you); but you kill two birds with one stone. With education, not only will overall fish-care increase, but people will be more likely to purchase a suitable tank.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

the girl at this store told me Spartan could be fine in a starbucks coffee cup :roll: As long as your noting it for BETTA OWNERS rather than breeders, or w/e okay... But I think I have a half gallon somewhere...oh yeah, it's floating poor lil' Fiona :roll: it's actually a gallon, but holds half the water so she can float in the sorority and keep the temperature warm :3

I do see your point, I do... I mean the prettiest steel blue VT male who's fins were tattered, and his scales stuck out like a pinecone sat on display in a half gallon in PJ'S PETS in west edmonton mall :roll: I'm avoiding that store like the plague. All their fish were sick except their mislabelled precious "metallic HM" bettas who had 10 gallons each :roll: And to think the associates didn't know what DROPSY was x.x -exasperated- But for those who know their stuff and use 1/2 or 1 gallons (anything 1/2 for me has to be something floating - for a reason). I even go out of my way and the room temperature is 28 in the spare room xD (errr....82?)

I'm working on people in my area :3 I see someone in walmart debating a tank, whether I am a customer or on the job I ask what they have, and veer them towards a suitable fish AND tank (some like goldies....erg....) and explain bettas are tropical (and what that means). Never got complaints =D or come across a "leave me alone!!" person...yet..


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I agree with education. I advocate educating people about the proper care of all animals, especially betta fish. However, I view a petition as a form of education. Many people do not know there is anything wrong with tiny tiny tanks. They believe the myths and will not think twice about purchasing them. Petitions are an awareness raising strategy. Even if the petition fails, people will become aware of the problem and question why others are against these tanks. Perhaps they will do research. Perhaps they will look online for some answer. Hopefully, they will seek education or pass on what they learned from it to other people.

Nothing stops people from buying anything that is inappropriate for animals. You cannot get rid of everything that is harmful for an animal based on what people might and might not due. As long as the product is not labelled as for fish, it is a step in the right direction. 

There are people out there who keep pets in boxes, I've seen it. Guinea pigs, rabbits, other small furry creatures...cardboard box. Was the box meant for an animal? No, of course not. But there is always someone out there who will do the wrong thing. The idea is to get more people to do the right thing by banning obviously harmful products. You can't stop people from acting foolishly but you can stop people from believing it is okay to use bad products because they are sold in stores.

Most of us here generally agree on educating people away from tanks with less than 1 gallon. We generally agree that 1 gallon and up should be the minimum. Why not just get rid of what is hurtful to the animals? Again, it is a way of educating people frommy perspective. Perhaps I just do not see what you are seeing. I am, however, interested in your perspective.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Sivan said:


> Nothing stops people from buying anything that is inappropriate for animals. *You cannot get rid of everything *that is harmful for an animal based on what people might and might not due. As long as the product is not labelled as for fish, it is a step in the right direction.





Sivan said:


> *Why not just get rid of what is hurtful to the animals?* Again, it is a way of educating people frommy perspective. Perhaps I just do not see what you are seeing. I am, however, interested in your perspective.



You contradict yourself. While it is easy to say you can just "get rid of" these harmful items, people will always be...creative.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

bahamut285 said:


> You contradict yourself. While it is easy to say you can just "get rid of" these harmful items, people will always be...creative.


I was referring specifically to tanks under 1 gallon in the second quote but I can see your confusion. You cannot stop people from being creative with animal homes. Mugs for fish, boxes for guinea pigs, bronx apartment flats for tigers (that happened), there are many foolish arrangements. You can stop stores from selling bad animal habitats that are labelled and marketed for animals. That is the difference and what I was trying to differentiate.

People will do dumb things. You can't stop that but you can stop products that encourage bad things because they are labelled for bad things.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Again, I believe education would be a better direction. When I was buying my 2.5G KK, I asked the woman if they had the enormous 5G one. 

She said: "Oh, we don't seem to have it, how big is your lizard?" (Clarity: the kk's are in the reptile section)

Me: Oh, no no this is for a betta fish

She responded: Oh, Betta fish only require small spaces, they don't move much and get nervous in large tanks


-----

It is that kind of response from Pet Store employees that advocate bad fish-keeping behaviour.

It's similar to raising a child. Instead of BANNING bad things (i.e. smoking, drugs, teen-sex, etc.), education is a much more powerful tool. When I was growing up, my parents very rarely banned things from me. I was even allowed a sip of champagne at new years/christmas since age 2. Instead, my parents taught me that consuming vast amounts of alcohol will cause you to do relatively embarrassing things. Now, at my age, I have never been wildly drunk and drink fairly responsibly.

Banning things will only make them taboo and will encourage people to "STICK IT TO THE MAN" (or similar behaviour)


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I have had bad advice from pet stores too but generally the workers who were trained by corporate rules feel that they know more because they've got the Petco or PetSmart or Whatever Store name behind them. Sometimes things have to be banned. 

The child analogy is not bad but those types of things are not equal to fish tanks. Lead toys, toys with choking hazards, playing a sport without proper protection--those things are banned for children because they cause harm and children cannot make proper decisions for themselves. Sure, you could say that as long as there is a warning on those things then they are fine. That, however, is not true. Like choking hazards, fish tanks with less than 1 gallon aimed at being "ideal" homes for betta fish are health hazards.

That is how I see it. Certain things have to have a certain standard. Unfortunately, merely telling people and educating people you see about proper fish care will not leave a large impact. Sure, maybe 10 or 20 people in your town are now enlightened on proper betta care. I want a larger impact than that. I want to effect more people and help more fish.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Trying to educate pet store employee's on the subject of betta housing is like talking to a brick wall; it goes no where. In my experience, most think they are experts and anything I say goes through one ear and out the other. 

I still try, but I usually just end up frustrated. :-(


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I wanna work in a petsmart xD I'd kick some butt there LOL.

And you know, just because "10 or 20 people in your town are now enlightened on proper betta care" is SMALL to you, doesn't mean it is. Ever heard of "pay it forward"? look it up. Look at the chart. Sure it was something SMALL and maybe meaningless to others, but someone did it, started it, and it never ended. it grew, and grew, and there is a "based on a true story" movie about it too.

Let's say per 1 person I educate, they educate 3. I educate three, and so total they educate... 9. Those 9 educate 3 each, which is...? Word of mouth, works better than a "peta stance". I KNOW you want to help ALL FISH. But the thing is, don't we all? I'd rather try and try to get a job in petsmart, educate, and when I adopt out bettas I educate, even send a brochure and add THIS site to it NOT in small print, but in standard... I'm teaching my nephew, who is passionate for animals. And he'll tell people they're doing it wrong if he feels it is wrong - word of mouth.

I'd rather hear someone say "Bettas need heaters because they are tropical.. They came from thailand, but cannot be confused with their wild cousins as they have been modified for beauty, therefore their hardiness is not quite as that of their wild types." Rather than something written. That's what I do - I get to ALL three senses: reading, hearing, seeing. Anyone asks to see my bettas I say yes, anyone asks I tell, and I have brochures for them if they want to take one. You have to do more then throw a petition out there. Most petitions go unseen, unheard, and bashed. Any petition I signed, never worked, it failed, it fell, it accomplished little to nothing.

Who's to say your petition will impact more than my measely 10-20 people?


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Woah, woah, woah. Hold on. I never said it was meaningless. I think it is important. And I understand how one person's mind changed can go a long way. There is a HUGE difference between aiming to educate people in your local town and aiming to educate people across the country or in more than one country. I do my part when it comes to that and I know how hard it can be. I've a friend who constantly rolls her eyes and give me the "its just a fish" attitude, not willing to accept that fish are animal that need care too. She could not care less. I get it that not everybody can be reached either by word or mouth or through a petition.

I am doing more than making a petition. I made the Betta Fish Awareness Day facebook page in order to reach people and educate them on the proper care of betta fish. Every day I put out a "The More You Know" fact about betta fish, I put up polls about people's opinions on fish care to better understand where people are coming from, I write guides on proper fish care, have trivia, and create printable internet fliers with a Myth VS Fact on betta fish. I do not have a lot of people but the numbers are steadily growing and people have thanked me because they did not know some of the information before hand.

I advertise on that FB page and in real life on how to handle improper care in a store through contacting either store manage, owner, or headquarters about conditions. *I am 100% against PETA* and their tactics. I never advocate harassment, name-calling, or degrading human life for the sake of animals. I do not support them because I think they are a false organization that lies to make money. I would not stoop to their level. However, empathy does start understanding for animals. By relating to animals people can begin to understand why certain treatments are wrong.

The petition is just another tool. It is another form of awareness and a test to see how something like this is effective. Not trying at all gets nothing done. Assuming that your personal efforts will fail because other similar efforts before it failed disregards all the success that have been made through similar means. All a petition needs is support. Support and a voice can go a long way. I'd rather try to get the word out to as many people as I can than just the local people in my town who shop at PetSmart or Petco or Walmart.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Sivan said:


> I have had bad advice from pet stores too but generally the workers who were trained by corporate rules feel that they know more because they've got the Petco or PetSmart or Whatever Store name behind them. Sometimes things have to be banned.


I've been following, but staying out of, this discussion for some time because there's nothing I can contribute that hasn't already been stated.

Until this.

Petco and PetSmart (if I'm remembering a PetSmart sheet I read at work) both actually advocate a minimum of 1-gallon for Bettas, and in fact in their care guides state that they can be community fish (I've even seen Petco mention the idea of sororities). So, really, this is not a company or corporate rules-based problem but rather a need for associate education to be improved so they _know_ what the company actually recommends. The problem with corporate pet stores is not necessarily the corporation itself (in this instance), but rather the fact that there is a serious lack of education when it comes to their pet care associates. Which is something that the company can improve upon because, and I imagine this is the same for Petco, at Petsmart one must be certified before they can work in pet care.

For those not in pet care? They have to go through orientation regardless of their position -- there's already hours of videos to be watched during this, what's one more video covering the basics for the animals available for sale in the store?

Not saying that their care guides are flawless (they leave a lot to be desired in my opinion), _but_, in this instance, corporate actually does advocate a 1-gallon minimum for Bettas.

Why do they sell small tanks then? Simple: because they sell.

Personally, I'm for education over legislation or banning something (I'm, technically, a Libertarian after all) -- it depends on the usage, and a lot of people use the smaller tanks for things other than keeping a fish in long-term. Hospital tanks have been brought up, quarantine tanks, and I know one member on here once mentioned considering using those half-gallon Marina cubes for a Marimo ball.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

that's the problem  even if small tanks were banned, people could easily resort to vases x.x THAT would suck. Really. I'd rather a petition to say "educate" then "ban" personally. 

Then again in my artea a bowl will be....8.00. A 5 gallon tank NO filter, is 34.97. A 10 gallon is 39.97. Sometimes the prices SUCK.. my bf got me the 80 gallon for one oscar fish, for 250.00....


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Actually, Petco's current betta care sheet does not state that betta fish should be kept in a minimum or 1 gallon. It actually states that betta fish can do well in a minimum of 0.4 gallons, among other misleading tidbits of information. PetSmart's care sheet advocates the 1 inch per gallon rule, which is not bad but can be misleading. However, both stores have been advertising betta tanks that are under 1 gallon by placing them next to betta displays and even setting them up as demonstration with live fish inside, which is more encouraging for people to buy than the care sheet that is posted online that says to do otherwise. 

The employees do need better education. However, how can you have employees who both advocate and encourage customers to buy 1 gallon or larger tanks while still needing to sell those less than 1 gallon tanks? It does not seem like a good idea for the company when it comes to making money. Not to mention, people are more willing to buy a small, inexpensive tank, than a larger one.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

petsmart has care sh- ohhh yeah it does xD it said guinea pigs were a GREAT beginner pet :roll: (actually no...they aren't.... intermediate at least!)

If I were told I had to sell 1 gallons, I'd use it to my advantage ;-) someone could say "my betta is sick" And I'd recommend a 1 gallon bowl, the AQ salt or whatever meds they would need, and there  haha. 

And yes, like I said someone would rather a 8 dollar bowl than a 40 dollar tank. Even the 3 gallon we sell here is 25 dollar :roll:


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

I wouldn't have a problem selling 1 gallons. I'd tell people the pros and cons of them and recommend them as hospital tanks, like you would. But I would NOT sell tanks under 1 gallon. If you really need one that small, you can always put less water into the 1 gallon.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

LionCalie said:


> Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a ban on bowls *under* 1 gallon here in the US. I prefer keeping my Bettas is nothing smaller than 2.5 gallons, but a lot of people that use 1 gallons properly don't have problems. Anything under 1 gallon I personally view as cruel confinement.
> 
> Again, just my two cents.



So you view all betta breeders as betta abusers? You are aware that most betta breeders house their fish in small containers right?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

:lol: I think that was brought up before :3


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Bettas Rule said:


> So you view all betta breeders as betta abusers? You are aware that most betta breeders house their fish in small containers right?


First of all, I already addressed that. If breeders need a special sized tank then the tank should not be labelled as the "ideal home" for a betta but rather a "breeding tank" instead. So no, I do not consider it abuse and it would not be abuse. And yes, I AM aware that breeders house their bettas in small containers.

Second, I did not create this thread so do not assume that everything that was on the first page is my opinion.


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> :lol: I think that was brought up before :3


Ah I see! lol
I guess we should just stop breeding bettas and leave them in the rice patty's then, since breeding them is abusive. :lol:


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Sivan said:


> First of all, I already addressed that. If breeders need a special sized tank then the tank should not be labelled as the "ideal home" for a betta but rather a "breeding tank" instead. So no, I do not consider it abuse and it would not be abuse. And yes, I AM aware that breeders house their bettas in small containers.
> 
> Second, I did not create this thread so do not assume that everything that was on the first page is my opinion.


No need to get angry. Maybe you might want to be more clear when you post your opinions?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Hey! if someone "needs 1/2 gallon they can use 1 gallon" what if someone just fills it halfway and the bettas lives in it?  random question x.x sorry I'm not awake and I work soon D:


-sits down and grabs some popcorn- >.>


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## registereduser (Jul 30, 2010)

I think it would be possible to ban pet stores from selling small fish bowls, etc. but you can't ban all stores from selling them. You can get fish bowls in craft stores, floral shops, thrift stores, dollar stores, gift shops and I'm sure more that I can't think of at the moment.

People want the right to do as they please with their pets. That's why I don't foresee the USA banning tail or ear docking on dogs, cat declawing, or making cat licensing a nationwide law. Unfortunately you can't legislate love/responsibility :-?


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

walmart, superstore, saans, fields, probably target, sears, dollarama, The Dollar Store, partymax....  I just named most of the stores here lol ohh and liquidation world. They all sell some sort of vase/bowl. D: That's the problem I see...

Say bowls are banned under 2 gallons, from being sold.

they buy vases from walmart or wherever.

Now they make a law saying they cannot own fish in under 2 gallons.

Now people either stop buying fish, or like a child to it's overbearing mother, they rebel.

Now they have to enforce this law... do they have to check every house? ban ALL vases? in the end it would flunk out


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## Bettas Rule (Aug 18, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> walmart, superstore, saans, fields, probably target, sears, dollarama, The Dollar Store, partymax....  I just named most of the stores here lol ohh and liquidation world. They all sell some sort of vase/bowl. D: That's the problem I see...
> 
> Say bowls are banned under 2 gallons, from being sold.
> 
> ...


excellent point! Teaching good fish keeping is the only real answer. Education people!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

That's what I do with my "small" 10-20 people. And some are parents with young kids, in turn the young kids learn. My nephew is learning - and if he doesn't look after his fish I take back my tank, my fish, and everything else :roll: And he knows it lol. No responsibility, no fish. They had 2 goldies in a 1.7 gallon (which I now have as a trade off so he can have a 10 gallon and learn about the cycle), because their grandma (not my side of the family) did that :roll: one's belly exploded, the other died from popeye, ich and dropsy. x.x I explained to them why they died and my nephew says "that explains why the water was always dirty! and we cleaned it every day." :lol:

I would sign a petition aimed towards proper advertising. No goldies on a half gallon :roll: and no half gallon divided tanks! Yeah I saw that one x.x veered a mother away from it and to a 1.5...


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

I tried for more than an hour to post this last night but couldn't get the site to work...anyways, here it is now:

The care guides may not state it, but there are points where the companies do advocate a minimum of one-gallon (I believe Petco states it in their information online, and I think PetSmart advocated it in a company letter regarding Bettas and their care, if not then I know it's on the display/information card for them). I'm not going to deny that there needs to be more consistency, but that's a different matter (especially when speaking about a corporation). Both care sheets do, however, mention that they can be community fish (which is what I had said: I hadn't mentioned the guides until bringing up the community fish thing).

Again, the care guides leave a lot to be desire, I'll be the first to admit that, and the companies need to work on consistency, but technically that could be incorporated into their education efforts. It would also be a _lot_ easier for a company to work on consistency and issue new care guides than it would be to discontinue _several_ products that sell.

The care sheets are also offered in the stores, but that's not entirely relevant to your point regarding the tanks. Again, the tanks are displayed because, to some degree or another, they sell, which means there is a demand that the company will supply. Employee education, however, can steer them towards more appropriate tanks which may or may not hold a higher cost. At PetSmart there are three different Top Fin brand one-gallon tanks (basically variations of one tank: without a light, with an incandescent light, and with an LED light) that are, at worst, comparable in price to the smaller tanks and in many cases take little more room. I, personally, managed to talk a customer into a one-gallon over the smaller tanks and demonstrated that it would take no more room than the other tank he was considering and was, I believe, a half-gallon. Will you be able to talk everyone into a 2.5-gallon or a 5-gallon or a 10-gallon? No, but you could talk them into a one-gallon that's $8.99 (going off of my store's price) -- that's less than even some of the "bowls" we sell.

The company does not _need_ to sell anything, and often times things are "reduced to clear" (i.e. clearanced) because they aren't selling well enough. We're encouraged to sell higher-quality foods and other products when able, and that would be the same in this case -- comparable to encouraging someone to buy, say, Blue Buffalo or even Natural Balance over the grocery brand dog or cat foods. I'll address the argument that these foods can be more expensive than, say, a bag of Pedigree or Beneful: they also allow people to feed less (sometimes _much_ less), which means they buy dog food less often which can balance the price difference over time, and oftentimes people who feed the grocery brands are also coming in for other products to remedy something that they would not need on a higher-quality food. So while the prices are technically in reverse in the dog food example, it still demonstrates that the company does not _need_ to sell anything and there's different routes to the same "bottom line."

It really would not be cutting much into the bottom line, especially if they also educate the employees that Bettas prefer cover: even a one-gallon can hold more plants/decorations than a half-gallon, so you can make the difference right there. If employees are educated that Bettas also are in the tropical fish category and need heaters then there's more money as well to make up the difference.

Not to mention, educated employees who help customers do the best they can by their pets create repeat and word-of-mouth business because customers feel that they care and they can better trust them.

A lot of people already go for the Aqueon tanks that are so popular: we have proprietary brand tanks that are at least comparable and more "budget friendly" to suggest to those that aren't sure about the pricier Aqueons.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> I would sign a petition aimed towards proper advertising. No goldies on a half gallon :roll: and no half gallon divided tanks! Yeah I saw that one x.x veered a mother away from it and to a 1.5...


Going off of this, I think that a petition aimed at consistent information and employee education at these stores would go much further than a petition banning the sale of tanks that are less than one-gallon.

At least, implementation and company acceptance would be considerably higher -- it doesn't have the same emotional element though so it may receive less attention and/or signatures than a call to ban something (whether claiming it as an educational tool or not). But then why not circulate the link to it around in fish and, in particular, Betta communities? Send it to "experts" or "professionals" (in quotes to allow for looser definition if desired)? Betta or fish-keeping organizations?

I think that would hold more sway than the random "Jo(e)" signing a petition and leaving a comment that these tanks are cruel and abusive and that the stores are evil for selling them and anyone who buys them shouldn't own a fish.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Sena Hansler said:


> walmart, superstore, saans, fields, probably target, sears, dollarama, The Dollar Store, partymax....  I just named most of the stores here lol ohh and liquidation world. They all sell some sort of vase/bowl. D: That's the problem I see...
> 
> Say bowls are banned under 2 gallons, from being sold.
> 
> ...


Again, its about marketing too. If you label something as "ideal betta home" then people are going to assume its just that. If you market it as "fish hospital tank" then people will assume its for treating fish with illnesses. There is a logical reason for banning tanks (not just bowls but all tanks) under 1 gallon for regular use. I already stated those reason and will not continue to repeat myself. Its not a random amount and can be scientifically argued as to why. 2 gallons are thus irrelevant to the conversation.

The example of enforcing what types of tanks people keep the fish in is silly. I never stated that people cannot have them. That's like saying that the polic will have to inspect every house that owns a dog to make sure its not being abused. The idea is to get the stores to voluntarily stop selling tanks under 1 gallon for housing purposes.

Like any animal abuse/cruelty/neglect enforcement, fish would be handled equally under the law. They aren't an exception because they're fish and need proper space like any other animal.

Also, I fail to see a huge fish rebellion in the future. Nobody is going to rush out to the store, buy a fish and buy a bowl and put them together to "rebel" against rules. I just want to see equal treatment.

Just because there is a deman for a product does not mean it is safe to use. Women used to use radioactive face creams because they thought it would prevent wrinkles. Clearly, demand needs to sometimes be regulated.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Bettas Rule said:


> Ah I see! lol
> I guess we should just stop breeding bettas and leave them in the rice patty's then, since breeding them is abusive. :lol:


There's no need to be obnoxious or go to extremes. I never stated that breeding is abusive. I never suggested that people should not have pets. Those comments are completely uncalled for.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm going to avoid the discussion of regulating "demand" but I'm now confused on something...

Sivan, are you going for an outright ban here? Or a voluntary ceasing of the sale of tanks under one-gallon and/or an overhaul in their marketing?

Because from what I'm reading you're saying both, and they're completely different goals. It's one thing for them to voluntarily no longer be sold or sold through particular venues for the use of hospital tanks or for use in the breeding process, and it's a completely different thing for them to be banned and their sale regulated (i.e. for legislation to be passed).


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

This member is looking to start a petition to stop stores from selling small abusive tanks which we as a forum do not support these tanks. NO matter HOW big of a task this is, or how impossible some people think it is, this member needs SUPPORT not everyone ripping at each other and starting drama in this thread. I may not agree with everything the OP has stated, but I believe there is a heart in the right place and that I will support. Guys, for real?? Does anyone else see how silly it is that there is arguing in a topic that someone started because they are concerned with Betta care and wants to help stop abuse? *SMH*


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

Noah: I, personally, am looking for PetSmart (and others, eventually) to voluntarily take away fish tanks that hold under 1 gallon or advertise them as appropriate homes for betta fish and other fish. I think we got confused with the OPs stance and our own.

Pitluvs: I agree. Things shouldn't get so heated. We all care about betta fish and should do what we feel is best to encourage people not to harm them.


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Pitluvs said:


> This member is looking to start a petition to stop stores from selling small abusive tanks which we as a forum do not support these tanks. NO matter HOW big of a task this is, or how impossible some people think it is, this member needs SUPPORT not everyone ripping at each other and starting drama in this thread. I may not agree with everything the OP has stated, but I believe there is a heart in the right place and that I will support. Guys, for real?? Does anyone else see how silly it is that there is arguing in a topic that someone started because they are concerned with Betta care and wants to help stop abuse? *SMH*


I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I originally only posted to address the issue of PetSmart and Petco advocating less than one-gallon tanks -- my part in this has taken off from there. Though, I'm not sure that I've posted anything that started drama or was counter-intuitive to the end goal per se (and in fact I've stated at several points what might achieve the goal more easily or feasibly).

Arguing itself isn't necessarily a negative thing unless it hinders progress, which I don't think all of the comments have. The more one knows, the better prepared they would be in such a task, after all.

Sivan: I was more confused because in the same posts you seemed to call for legislative bans and regulations as well as voluntary action by pet stores -- unless those stores voluntarily stop selling these tanks before a legislative ban/regulation is enacted, this would be an either/or situation.

Personally, I would be _much_ more supportive of urging pet stores to only sell one-gallon+ tanks and better educating their staff and, consequently, customers in the proper/appropriate care for the animals they sell. Being of a Libertarian leaning, the suggestion of legislatively banning and regulating something -- no matter the intentions -- is something I'm wary of for several reasons.

I know it probably seems like a semantics issue, but all too often semantics mean far more than people initially think. There's power in words, after all.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

What a sad state we are in - we need a petition against animal abuse.


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## Pitluvs (Jun 22, 2011)

Noah, I do see this hindering. Telling OP that this is going about the wrong way hinders any progress made as far as petitioning. I wasn't pointing out any names though, I kinda stopped reading at a certain point because it was going no where.


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## LionCalie (Sep 24, 2011)

Bettas Rule said:


> So you view all betta breeders as betta abusers? You are aware that most betta breeders house their fish in small containers right?


No, I do not and I am aware of that fact. I have a few friends that are Betta breeders. However, I still stand by my opinion. Betta Breeders have lots of fish and it wouldn't be practical for them all to be housed in 1+ gallons, so they use jars and keep the water very clean. Nothing wrong with that. A betta keeper only interested in them as pets, however, is completely different. 

Example of what I mean: Reptile breeding facilities keep their animals in much smaller enclosures because of their vast numbers. Reptile hobbyist and those keeping a few as pets typically provide large and elaborate enclosures, because they have the time and space to do so.


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## BettaFishLuver (Feb 5, 2012)

Ugh! It is NOT animal abuse! When I say proper care I mean heater and everything! If the fish gets fed, cleaned, a heater, ect. Who cares if it is a 1 gallon bowl? I surely don't and for all you wasting you time and going on about this animal abuse crap you might want to actually look up the definition of animal abuse! Animal Abuse: Cruelty to animals is the infliction of suffering or harm upon animals, other than humans, for purposes other than self-defense. Question this? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_abuse look it up. I only have a 10 gallon but I used to have a 1.2 gallon and my fish was as happy as could be. I refuse to sign this stupid "pentition." This is a free country and there is nothing "unsafe" about 1g fish tanks so move on. I'm sorry for coming on strong but this is my final input. Just one thing that ticks me off is saying everything is ANIMAL ABUSE! *takes a deep breath* it is NOT nor never will be animal abuse. I know some people are stubborn like me and will stand firm on their opinion but I just wanted to state that out there.

ADDED:
The reason why fish are being kept in poor conditions is because of false information. Like that divided small tank that is supposedly a home for 2 bettas, would be completely avoided if people were more educated on bettas and knew that it is not suitable for 2 bettas. Also, if people knew thet bettas NEED a heater probably less of those .3 tanks would be boughten. That's how I see it. But some people just don't care and there is nothing you can do about it. You can make them buy 50 gallon tanks but it's their choice if they decide to properly care for it.


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## Sivan (Aug 30, 2010)

BettaFishLover, you need to calm down. Don't be rude. Nobody here is talking about 1 gallon tanks, only UNDER 1 gallon tanks.

Also: Just because people are not aware that doing something wrong does not negate the fact that it is wrong. Pretend that somebody thinks that hamsters only need to be fed and watered once every other week and they starve their hamster to death. That is animal neglect, a form of animal abuse.


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## thekoimaiden (Oct 19, 2011)

I've stayed out of this as long as possible, but I don't think I've seen anyone make this point. I am all for education. I pour my heart and soul into educating people about proper fish care, and people usually take my advice (especially after I tell them I studied fish in college). Have you ever considered that a wonderful side effect of this petition could be to educate people? Sivan did a good job writing out why tanks smaller than 1 gal are bad. Have you actually looked at the page? Even if they don't sign the petition, the information is there for them to read, and that is one more place on the internet where proper care info can be found. I see this as another education tool like my blog or Sivan's FB page. Pitluvs is right. Sivan needs our support not bickering. 

And bettafishluver, using your definition, it is animal cruelty. By keeping a tropical fish in something too small to safely heat you are damaging the fish for a purpose other than self-defense. In fact, cold shock is actually a method used to euthanize tropical fish. Rapid temp changes kill animals that can't regulate their body temp. Like fish....


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## NoahG (Oct 24, 2011)

Pitluvs said:


> Noah, I do see this hindering. Telling OP that this is going about the wrong way hinders any progress made as far as petitioning. I wasn't pointing out any names though, I kinda stopped reading at a certain point because it was going no where.


If there's a better way to go about something, or someone feels there is a better or more efficient way to go about something, I don't see it as hindering anything if that is brought up. In fact, one could argue it's more of a hindrance by not sharing that. It's very much like the brain-storming process: if things aren't shared that might be of help, then that could negatively affect the impact or success of an endeavor.

Once again, I'm not going to deny that there are some posts that haven't been productive, so to speak. My major hang-up here was that I was under the impression that this petition was for legislative banning of the sale of tanks that are less than a gallon and that was where I was coming from in my own responses.

I'll say it again: I'm considerably more willing to support an effort to convince stores to stop selling anything less than one-gallon tanks. Part of accomplishing that is knowing _how_ they could do that though, so I think my posts here thus far are still of some benefit if approaching these companies. One has to be careful of how they word something, as I've already mentioned.

I'm also not going to deny that this petition could be of use from an educational perspective, but calling for better education for employees would potentially result in a wider reach in that regard than calling for a ban would. And I think the petition would be more effective as well if it's clear that what is being called for is a voluntary ceasing of sales and/or better education (if that's included): the more clear and straight-forward the goal, the better for obtaining that goal or making a strong impact with the efforts.

I guess this has gone from clearing up Petco and PetSmart's stand on things (albeit their inconsistency in making that known), to my 2¢ in how better to approach/execute this petition.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't think I read half of that :roll: I can't keep up lol.

I rarely sign petitions (when I do those petitions usually fail and are forgotten  ) Good luck with your, bid you adu, etc etc Out!


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## bettalover2000 (May 10, 2011)

Tikibirds said:


> I think one of the reasons petstores push tiny bows is because* people are more willing to spend $5 on a tiny home for $2 fish then they are to spend $25 or more for the larger tank set ups. *Remeber to most people, bettas "are just cheap fish" >.<


Well some of the .5> tanks are upwards of $10

http://www.petco.com/product/103705/Betta-Treasures-Collection-Seahorses-Betta-Bowl.aspx
http://www.petco.com/product/118217/Hagen-Marina-Ying-Yang-Betta-Kit.aspx
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11164165&lmdn=Fish+Aquariums+%26amp%3B+Bowls


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

here, 0.25 and up is 5-15 dollars. 3 gallons is about 25, 5 is 35-50, 10 and up is 40 and up


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

I actually designed a setup where each betta gets a 1 gallon home at my local petco, instead of those little cups, and it took up very little space, but they declined  got a good grade at skool for ti tho!


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

why did they decline? that would've been a smarter idea.


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

BettaFishLuver said:


> Ugh! It is NOT animal abuse! When I say proper care I mean heater and everything! If the fish gets fed, cleaned, a heater, ect. Who cares if it is a 1 gallon bowl? I surely don't and for all you wasting you time and going on about this animal abuse crap you might want to actually look up the definition of animal abuse! Animal Abuse: Cruelty to animals is the infliction of suffering or harm upon animals, other than humans, for purposes other than self-defense. Question this? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_abuse look it up. I only have a 10 gallon but I used to have a 1.2 gallon and my fish was as happy as could be. I refuse to sign this stupid "pentition." This is a free country and there is nothing "unsafe" about 1g fish tanks so move on. I'm sorry for coming on strong but this is my final input. Just one thing that ticks me off is saying everything is ANIMAL ABUSE! *takes a deep breath* it is NOT nor never will be animal abuse. I know some people are stubborn like me and will stand firm on their opinion but I just wanted to state that out there.
> 
> ADDED:
> The reason why fish are being kept in poor conditions is because of false information. Like that divided small tank that is supposedly a home for 2 bettas, would be completely avoided if people were more educated on bettas and knew that it is not suitable for 2 bettas. Also, if people knew thet bettas NEED a heater probably less of those .3 tanks would be boughten. That's how I see it. But some people just don't care and there is nothing you can do about it. You can make them buy 50 gallon tanks but it's their choice if they decide to properly care for it.


 
I agree with you somewhat, but if there was a dog that lived in a crate that barely ever got cleaned all its life, I thnk you would call THAT abuse, so what is different with fish?

I do think it is a bit much to fuss over it, but I still think it is abuse to put the fish in those conditions. A petition WILL do good. We arent even fussing over the 1 gallons, we are fussing over divided half-gallons (yes I have seen) and stuff, sn the fact people are told this is GOOD for thier fish.


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## Alicat22 (Nov 6, 2011)

The pet store I got my betta at had a sale on 1 gallon betta bowls which had a divider so you could put 2 in there. But the guy who was working there told me each fish needs at least a gallon of space. He told me if I got that bowl, do not use the divider, only put one fish in there. 

I once went to a pet store where I saw the bettas being sold in really tiny containers, and there was a little sign saying that bettas love small bowls because they live in puddles. I didn't believe it. I think they should get more room than that.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I think we already went over this cra-- we don't need to drag it out.

Alicat, that is a smart guy then... to say don't use the dividers.


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

Ive seen little half gallons and less with dividers! its terrible. I'm lucky though, my petco just hired someone who at least has a heart! There is a book on bettas right there by the betta section and a sticky at living conditions and care, for betta shoppers to use.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

_Omg.. I am so glad this is comeing up, Just went to Petco today.. I am HORRIFIED...AND WANT TO =SCREAM AND CRY.. THERE ARE KING BETTA'S IN THOSE CUPS, THEY CAN NOT EVEN MOVE.. WTH.. I was gonna take at least 3 but I felt so bad for the rest of the males.. there are some beautiful fishy's that u can tell are suffering.. I saw fin rot,:redmad: and wouldnt even known what it was.. till I started hearing about how bad it was through this forum, my god, pLeaese can't someone at least maybe get all the girls in one big ten gal, and then split 3 ten gals with some males.. this is not right.. _

_it needs to be fixed, all those fishes with no homes.. It kills me inside,:BIGweepy: because when we got "Sammy" from Petco, I guess we were lucky.. to get him home quickly I never noticed anything wrong with him, he knows he's loved and very well taken care of, _
_I know I SAVED HIS LIFE, AND i AM DOING THIS WHILE TEARS ARE FALLING.. CUZ i WANT TO DO THAT FOR THE REST OF THEM.. SO WAHT EVER IT TAKES.. WE HAVE TO DO.. I AM WITH U ALL THE WAY!!!!_


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

I have nothing against 1 gallons or less, provided that they are warm, have decent room to swim in and water changes everyday with entertainmentand plants.

It really depends on the situation, like the king betta on posted above. We really just need education, not forced action. Perhaps a petition should be started to educate pet shop employees properly. And make it company policy to inform customers of a fish's needs and proper care. Only when demand for small tanks decreases will the supply decrease and eventually this will phase out small tanks.


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## lelei (Apr 30, 2012)

What people want to buy we cannot stop..unless we write to the manafactures to stop making them.. and make them understand the reason why.. but to get the petstores to stop keeping the fish in the cups,

 I think is a different thing altogether, the petition should first go to the Makers of the product.. then should go to the petstores to make them change thier ways of selling the fish, if all the other fish are in tanks, for sale, like goldfish etc.. why then can't betta's ?? Yes, there is a space issue, but if they really wanted it to work, they could accomodate if they were convinced to do so in a positive way..


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## Pogthefish (Mar 24, 2012)

they just need to use a shelf as big as the UNNECESARY PUPPY CLOTHES or half as big and they could fit al the bettas in ten gallons, seriously! 

They could at least do decent water changes, and pay special attention to sick bettas!


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## ao (Feb 29, 2012)

Pogthefish said:


> they just need to use a shelf as big as the UNNECESARY PUPPY CLOTHES or half as big and they could fit al the bettas in ten gallons, seriously!
> 
> They could at least do decent water changes, and pay special attention to sick bettas!


Totally true about the water changes and sick fish. Maybe you can propose a 1/2 gallon model.. that was they can save on plastic too


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## xShainax (Feb 11, 2012)

I have two of my babies in 2.5 gallons since I don't have much room and I have one in a 29 gallon tank


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