# Whiter on face - tried recommendations still not better



## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

This is my third post on the same problem.

Male betta, 10 gal, heater to 80, Filtered, everyother day water changes since illness started, feed pellets- still eating, 

Ive tried bettafix (one dose with adverse effects), Full Course Kanaplex (no results), aquarium salt (mild improvement but reverted after course), epsom salt (no results)

Ive now thrown off my balance in my tank, and stressed him out with all these interventions. I spoke with someone at the aquarium store who thought it might be old age - lymphoma and there is not much i can do

Symptoms - white on face, cloudy eyes, poor vision, not as active, color diminished, mild bloating

Here is a picture of him today


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## lvandert (Feb 23, 2012)

it looks like the start of Lymphocystis. 
Symptoms: White to gray, cauliflower or raspberry-like groths on the fins or body of the fish.

Treatment: Since lymph is not very contagious or fatal, the best treatment is to leave the fish in the main tank and let the disease run its course. If you have an ultraviolet light, keep it on to stop the spread of the virus. If the Lymph tumor covers most of the mouth, causing eating problems for the fish, the growth should be removed. If you want to perform the surgery, net the fish and place it on a clean, wet towel. With a scalpel or new razor blade, carefully trim the portion of Lymph that is obstructing the mouth. Be careful not to cut into the actual skin, if at al possible. Disinfect the area by dabbingit with a cotton swab dipped in a broad spectrum antiseptic such as betadine. Let the drug penetrate for ten seconds then place the fish directly back in the main tank. Do not keep the fish out of the water for more than one minute."


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

i am personally thinking it too much medications. If you already used all that medications i would not use fungus guard,which you wrote in your last post you going to use. Especially if you know that it not fungus. I would think if it would be fungas he already would be worse . Also with fungus always lower the temp to 76* because fungus love and get worse in warmer temperature. I would give him a break and just do more water changes. I am personally think that 25% water changes even for 10 gall is not enough at all. And especially for 5 gall. Also i read bad responses on bettafix. 
Also i have a question. When you did salt treatment did you use right dose? Because if you didn't it not helping. Also if he is slightly bloated you can use Epsom salt long term, again it should be right dosage.

And i am really recommending more water changes for your tanks with regular gravel siphoning. If you have filter media swish/wash in the old water WITH water change.
Do you cycle your 5 gall tank?


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

How is your betta doing?


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

Thank you for checking in. He is still the same. Vision might be a bit worse. He has a hard time seeing his food but gets it after a few attempts. 
I have held back on any other meds to give my Bettas a rest. Just doing 25% water changes every other day to keep it nice and clean for them. 
In answer to your question, both tanks are filtered and heated. I also use the gravel siphon at every change. I have not used any further meds nor the fu gas guard because as you mentioned it might be pointless. The only things added to the tanks currently are prime conditioner and a bio support weekly to improvee/maintain bacteria.
I'm not sure if it's the lymphocytosis that was recommended. I can't find any pics to match his symptoms. 
I am playing a waiting game but I dont like it. I want to help them. I'm a nurse and feel I need to treat them.


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## lvandert (Feb 23, 2012)

lymph starts small and grows into a cauliflour like growth, but its obviously too small for that. 

Is he still bloated? or has that gone away?


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

How is your female? Does she has the same symptoms as before?
I am not an expert and i don't have filters. But i was thinking if they are sick and you have this filter running over and over with the same bacteria....I don't know if it too late but i would really take filter out and especially in 5 gall and do more water changes. And really wash your filters and let it sit for a few days or longer so bacteria dies....put it on a sun..I would do 50% weekly and 100% every other week. And always acclimate fish if you ever do 100% water changes.
If your male is bloated i would do Epsom salt which will help swollen and has antibacterial affect. Epsom salt you can use for long time so don't worry about that. 
They are sick since 7/7 almost a month so i would think if it would be columnaris because for one month he already would be dead probably, so it not it and you don't have to treat him for fungal infection. 
Also i am not sure if you know directions on salt treatments. For aquarium salt and Epsom salt the same instructions. Never follow the box instructions on aq salt because it just for preventative care. You always need right dosage and duration or it not going to help. Not sure what dosage you use before.
The instructions are:
Pre mix it in one gall jug or if you don't have one gall i guess in the container. Shake it well make sure it dissolved. And you have to do it 100% daily water changes. With aq salt you can treat no longer then 10-13 days.With epsom salt you can treat for as long as you need it.
Also i know when people have filters you need also wash it couple times a month in the old water WITH water changes.
Also even if you have frog in the same tank and it healthy, you can't assume that your fish is also healthy. I also think that bettas or at least some bettas are fragile and susceptible to the infections. I saw a lot of post when people have other fish with bettas and all of them fine but bettas get sick. That is why i keep all my bettas separate.
Also i hope you boy will at least stabilized and not get worse. And i know how difficult and frustrating to feed him. I had took fish from someone that couldn't eat and it took me literally 20 min to feed him. Finally i euthanize him because he couldn't eat. But i think if he is eating or you able to feed him he is not suffering from pain though. I would think if fish would have pain they will have some kind of convulsion or something...
Good luck give us update.


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

*not good*

Things are not looking good for my little man:sob:

today I noticed a new white spot coming out of his left gill. then after a 25% water change he got really bad. Started gasping, went really pale, sinking to the bottom, and having difficulty swimming or staying upright. I suppose the slight temp change with the new water, (i do climatize as best i can) and the current produced by adding it threw him right off.

I now have him in a one gallon floating in his tank so it stays warm. I also added 1 tsp epsom salt. I will increase that dose tomorrow if he handles it. I have one of his artificial plants in with him so he can rest on it.

At the moment he is stabilized, no more gasping, just resting on the plant and not moving much. Color has improved but not normal. I hope he will be ok.:-(

as for my female her bump is a bit bigger and i can now see black spots in her dorsal fin. she is still acting normal. I feel I am losing the battle but am not willing to give up fight.

:-?I spoke with a manager of the fish store today and he suggested it may be a fungas because it started as cloudy eye???? suggested I use the fungas guard by tetra since it is antifungal and antibiotic????? I just dont know anymore. I guess I will see how he does overnight and think about it.

here are pictures of them before the big scare


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## TheCheese909 (Aug 11, 2011)

I've got a guy with lymph. He has it on the side of his body though, not on the face or gills.

I rescued him from Petco, he had a fungus and lymph. I treated him in a 1 gallon tank with an under gravel filter with a little lilly plastic plant (so that he had something in there to feel comfortable with).

I used API Fungus Cure at first (which turns the water a greenish color). I used to for about 2 weeks along with API Stress Coat+ as a water conditioner. I changed the water after 5 days of treatment then did it again for another 4-5 days. This fungus cure works for cloudy eye as well, which my guy didn't have but i've used it before with great success on a one eyed Plakat I had who was totally blind in the actual eye he did have because of such cloudyness. It cleared up but it did take awhile.

As for the lymph itself after the 2 weeks(ish) treatment of the fungus cure I let him rest in clean, clear water for a few days then did a 1 week of Aquarium Salt (1tsp per 1 gallon) along with the Stress Coat. I took him out and cleaned his water after a week -BUT- I set him up again with the Aquarium Salt, same thing but before putting him back in his little tank i got a q-tip, and dipped it in his water along with a little drop of Betta Fix on the q-tip, held him, and gently brushed the lymph going in the direction of his scales. Since he had been sitting in the water with the medication then the salt it had made it a little bit softer and some of it came off. I didn't brush him hard or anything like that, i just gently brushed the q-tip over it. I put him back in the water and he hated me for a few days but then got over it. He still has it, it's very difficult to get rid of, sometimes it leaves and sometimes it stays forever. But doing that has made it so much better looking and it's much smaller.

I've also heard of people using peroxide on lymph as well. Same thing with a q-tip, though do your research before trying that.

Attached are acouple pictures of my boy. I'm trying to get newer pictures of him but he's in a 4 gallon tank now and loves racing around when the camera comes by.


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## sunlight (Apr 24, 2012)

i would try that...good luck


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

It interesting i would try that if he is not better and getting worse. 
glutenfreemama i wish you good luck i would try what TheCheese advice. Give us update. I would think if you will decide to treat him with medications do 100% water changes to get rid of the ep salt. Don't worry to stress him with water changes. He is sick and daily water changes better anyway.

I don't know if you can hold the fish and brush him though ...but i like the idea about medications and salt ....

Please give us update.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

just read last post again and have question.
Is white spot that coming of his left gill fuzzy? Is it still there? My concern if it parasite? Do you have magnifying glass? 

Another question i thought that lymphoma is not contagious. Then if it true then if can't be lymphoma. Because it girls also got the same symptoms it would be something else. It either fungus or .....

Are you also treating the girl ? Becaue if she is not bloated you don't need to treat her with epsom salt. But i am wondering about black spots.


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

He made it the night and even ate his pellet this morning.

The white thing coming out of the gill seems to change through out the day from a ball to a stringy thing about 2-3 mm. I also notice the white on his nose starts inside him then bulges out each side then covers his nose then breaks off then starts the cycle again. Im thinking it isnt lymp because it starts inside him and comes off with a day. :-?

The female still has the lump and I can only see the black spots on her fin if she has light behind and shining on her. I am not treating her with anything still until I have some indication what it cold be.

Here are some pics from this am.


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## lvandert (Feb 23, 2012)

I wonder if its Flukes. http://www.fishvet.com/Flukes.htm


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## MyRainbowBettaFish (May 9, 2012)

yep, maybe flukes? gill flukes-theyre and external parasite


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

i am really thinking the same by description. Especially if it moving and like you wrote it It looks like external parasites. And if he has it then she has it too since they were in the same tank. And if it is you can treat it asap though with aquarium salt. But you need to put both of them in the separate small containers. You can use the one they sell them in.

Is he still bloated though?

With external parasites you need aquarium salt 2 tsp/gall with daily water changes. You need temperature 85-86*.
The proper way to treat ich is a couple ways-

Conservatively you will want to raise temperature to 85 F and add 1tsp per gal of Aquarium Salt 3 times, 12 hours apart so that you end up with 3 times the normal concentration. Perform daily 100% water changes to remove fallen parasites before they can reproduce. Replace the water with the right amount of salt. Do not continue this treatment for more than 14 days.
The temp is important to help speed up the process.

If you want to go the medication route- which is a gamble on whether or not it works, then Jungle’s Parasite Clear, API Super Ick Cure, or Kordon Rid Ich Plus are what is commonly recommended.


Raising the temp up to 86*will speed the life cycle of the Ich and it will help make the Ich fall off the fish faster so you can manually remove the Ich from the tank.

By air drying the net and container between uses will kill any Ich that may be on it.

temp over 86 and the ich is said to stop reproducing and some even say it will kill the Ich

You want to treat for at least 3 days past the last day you could see the ich on the fish to make sure you got the ones that may be hiding in the gill area.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

I am thinking if you will put them in the small container you will not able to keep temp up. If this is an issue then you can hit up 10 gall and put their cups in there . Stick their cups to the walls of the tank. You need to make sure they not going to jump out though. You will need to gave 2 more cups for them. When you change the water you will put them in the other cups and the ones that they were in you will wash and dry out for 24 hrs to kill parasites until you use them next day to change them. With parasites it if there is not host the die. 

I don't know did i confused you?

I would use aq salt first and see the results and then i would have medications just in case you need to prolong the treatment and use it. You always can return medications.


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

When i look at the female picture i can see raised scales on the side of her body. Or it just a picture? Is there where lump is? Because if it what you meant her lump then it also can be parasites. They can hide under the scales.

If we diagnosed correctly then you will need to disinfect the tanks,plants, gravel so on.

But again with ich (external parasites) it easy to disinfect . You don't even need to use any solution. You just need to rinse everything and put outside to dry it out for a few days,and it better in a sun. No host parasites dies.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

i would think the same way. It looks like external parasites. If it is then aq salt should help. Pretty much what sunlight wrote is the treatment. I was helping someone on this forum back in april and with the same instructions she was able to get rid of them. I don't know if it 100% ensure though but i think ext parasites you can get rid off. 

The person i was helping was using aq salt and medications at the end of the treatment i think. If you want i can text her and double check.

Soory and good luck


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

Its been a stressful few days with my little man. He is still alive but Im not sure he is going to make it.
He is still in the smaller container floating in the 10 gallon. 
:-(He is having great difficulty seeing his food to eat it.I end up having to put in 3-4 pellets, one at a time, as he tries to eat them with no success until it falls to the bottom and I try another one. After he gets one I stop.
:-?The white spots seem to be about the same although now that he is in a small countainer I can see that he is "shedding" alot of it. There are at least 10-15 white spots a day on the floor of his home. They are not moving there though. Would external parasite originate from inside???
:-(He is moving awkwardly at times aroung the countainer and seems off balance somewhat. At every daily water change he sinks to the bottom and goes sideways for a while and goes pale.
:-DSome good signs are.....He still greets me when i approach so he has some vision. Through all this he makes small patches of bubble nests. He has made it this long so i still have hope.

Treatment right now is daily water changes with aquarium salt. at 2tsp per gallon. Althouh i am thinking i should switch to epsom salt with the unbalance????

The female is stable, active and eating. Her bump is bigger though so I am going to have to treat her soon. 

Here are some pics again.. I know I keep posting them but i think a picture is better that words. You can see the white things on the bottom of his little tank. also his gill white spot just got rubbed of when he swam past his plant so it is not in the pic but has already come back


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

OMG so sorry don't share anything between your male and female i will try to pm a few people to help you.
I read on this forum that sometimes you can use Epsom salt and aq salt together.
I still think it might be internal parasites. What temperature do you have them in?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey i just PMed someone- Oldfishlady. She is very knowledgeable and know a lot . A lot of people on this forum learned from her. Wait for her response.


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

Thank you so much for any help or advice. 
I want to help them and am so tired of people in my life telling me they are just fish and flush them. It makes me so mad and sad at how people think. Their life has value as do all things. Sorry. Just a small rant. 

I have the temperature at 78. When I started to increase it early in this disease process I had it up to 84 and the white stuff got worse. I've been nervous to adjust it. Especially since the slight temp change during water Changes Stresses him. I forgot to mention he also gasps for about 5 minutes each. Change when he is sideways at the bottom.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

So sorry. I spoke to Oldfishlady and i am going to put her answer so you can see our conversation. I will put a few post to let you see what she wrote. How i understood we diagnosed him correctly but the bad is that gill flukes is more difficult to treat then just ich on the body and you probably need medications and i am afraid it too late. I would continue salt with 78*. And i sent pm to someone else who also knowledgeable about medications. So sorry. And don't pay attentions to people who tell you it just a fish. Just disregard them you doing so wonderful job to help your pets. I would do the same. I love my fish as much as i love my dog.

I am going to post conversations so you can read , and i text someone ask about medications. 

And i would really start aq salt on your girl. I am afraid is she was in the same tank she has it too. Maybe you can save her. 

Does she has any other symptoms besides lump? Any white spots, anything new on her gills? Is she bloated?


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

My girl doesnt seem bloated to me anymore. She has no white spots like the male. The only thing I find odd is she has 2 round patches that are clear. I can't get them to show up in a picture but they are round, about 2-3 mm patches. 

I'm not ready to give up on my boy. Am I torturing him with all the water changes?


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I actually text 2 more people which are knowledgeable on the forum. It just i am long time on this forum . And i know they are great advice people. Unfortunately they both not log in now. So i would still continue to change the water and salt.

I am really worry about the girl since they been in the same tank i am pretty sure she will get them or got them.
So let's wait for response and see. And i still want to put for you what OFL wrote. I am not experiences with gills flukes at all, had no clue.

Also don't worry about water changes. I do 100% water changes for my boys all the time. My youngest betta about 2.8 years with 100% water changes. And i had betta that i bought for someone, and i had him in his little cup for 4 weeks with daily water changes so don't worry about that. The only one think with daily or 100% water changes that you need to keep new water the same temp as his water. So you can take one gall jug and put water conditioner and let it sit for 12-24 hrs for the right temp. I would do 100% water changes for the girl also at this moment until you get advice from another people.

Also i think i already wrote or someone wrote do not share anything between them.

Now i will make a few more post to show you what OFL wrote.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Now this is from OFL. But how i understand that gill flukes and just ext parasites on the body little different. I am personally helped someone on this forum with ich . And that person got rid of it with salt in i think 82*. So since we don't know if girl has flukes or just ext parasites i would do salt on her or at least keep doing 100% daily unitll you get the answer from other people.

Question-2 round patches that are clear. I can't get them to show up in a picture but they are round, about 2-3 mm patches. Thosw patches is something new ? You sure she didn't have them before?


OFL response:


I went through the 3 threads she has made and everything I would recommend has been done-Except for one thing...Manual removal of what looks like external parasites-possible Flukes and if not done properly it can kill the fish especially when they are in the gill area and the manual removal removes too much of the gill itself...the fish will die within an hour....so I don't like to recommend that-Other than that- the only other option is a strong pesticide and I don't use nor recommend them....I would PM Sakura since she has more knowledge of the medications/pesticide than I do...

I have another question about her other fish (female). She doesn't treat her yet. She is active and eating.Would you recommend to start aquarium salt treatment along with increasing the temperature on her as soon as possible? Since both of them were in the same tank i would assume she has it too?

Also if she will continue aquarium salt and raise the temp 86* it not going to help to her male at all? Is that correct? Is it too late?Its really hard to say, generally all the salt is going to do or what it is used for is for the wounds left from the external parasite after it detaches. The salt itself may not do much for the parasite. Some parasites the salt can help to kill them-but not so much with flukes if that is what it is. What I do for fluke is manual removal-but like what I said earlier-it can be risky to remove them especially on the gills and if you don't know what your are doing as well as have the right tools to do the job. I would never recommend it for someone without experience and if a person has to ask-they don't have the experience......Its a hard call....

I am not a big fan of raising the water temp too much with compromised fish since high water temp can help the bad bacteria colonize faster/easier.

With natural treatment you have to treat not just the fish but the system as a whole....


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

The clear patches have been there for at least 2 weeks. Maybe they have been all along but I am not sure. I just took notices when doing a thorough check of her. its really hard to get a good pic of her because she gets so active when I go up to the tank. i will keep trying in case it helps diagnose anything

Is there anything that might be easier for my male to eat? He seems starving. he is so aggressive trying to get the pellets. He just always seems to miss his mouth and hit them on his nose withen they sink. he has never taken to blood worms or flakes. 

Should I be concerned about my adf too?? they seem fine but did share a tank. 

Is it strange for gill flukes to start in the nose?

I hope you hear something back soon...i will go straight to the store and get whatever is needed. On hand I have ick clear fizz tabs, fungus guard, aq salt, epsom salt and kanamycin


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

The people that i text i hope will response soon or may be someone else who will see your post will help. But they will response on the main board, not to me personally. 

I never had adf so i don't know. But i read a lot of post where betta get sick in the tand and all other fish is fine. Still don't understand why. So i really don't know about adf...

Also i just think if he keep missing pellets i would try flakes . I think it easier because to get. Even if he open his mouth he might get a few. With pellets it more difficult since you have to couch them and if not they sink to the bottom.
It just flakes are messy and contaminate the water but since you doing 100% it fine. 

Sorry i am confuses what your male has. It would be nice if it not parasites though. At the beginning i was thinking may be it extra slime coat falling off him. But since now you saying he is gasping for air....i am not experience in that.

At the beginning i put my response only because i thought that gill flukes can be easily treated as external parasites on the body. Because the girl I was helping got rid of them very easy. 

I hope we will get answer today....


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

thank you..
I am just anxious...sorry dont mean to pester you. I just keep thinking of things to mention
Here is a better pic of the bump on the girl and a pic of the male resting on the bottom oddly - this is what he does after water changes and if he isnt resting on his plant


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Sorry i wish i know how to help. I hope someone will come along to help.
Good picture of the girl. Good that she is eating and active. Not sure about round patches you was talking about....where is it, can it be seen on the picture?

I read over the flukes disease link that ivandert posted for you, and that description exactly like your male has, i think. 
So i would think if no one know what to do you can check the store medications. I guess it will be medications for external parasites.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey sorry how it going? I got answer from sakura8. Sorry i think yesterday when i text a few people i forgat to give a link that is why sakura was unable to read your post. But what she answered and i did pm the link-

So, this fish has gill flukes? For certain? Are they visible? When they get bad enough, gill flukes can become big enough to be visible by the naked eye. 

For treatment of gill flukes . . . Betta Revive might help, as would API General Cure. I agree with OFL, manual removal of the flukes is not something that should be done by an inexperienced aquarist. 

If the natural route, with AQ salt etc, isn't working, it might be time to try a med. 

Can you PM me the link to the thread?
__________________


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

Thank you again

I'm I really wondering if they are gill flukes for sure. I am going to pull out my microscope and see what these white things coming off of him l


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

Oops. Push the post by accident. 

As I was saying....I'll use my microscope to see what it looks like. I'm confused because it all started as a brown spot on his nose that turned white, fell off then started white stuff coming inside out with white eyes. 

I kinda hope it's flukes so at least I know and can start treatment. 

Lots more white stuff on the bottom of the tank today.


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

Lets wait until sakura8 will see your post. Was you able to feed him? Is he swimming at all or just lethargic? 
Also i think you will need to treat the girl since they were in the same tank and it contagious i think, if it is flukes..


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

ANHEL123 said:


> Lets wait until sakura8 will see your post. Was you able to feed him? Is he swimming at all or just lethargic?
> Also i think you will need to treat the girl since they were in the same tank and it contagious i think, if it is flukes..


I am able to feed him with some patience. He wouldnt go near flakes so I am back to pellets. He occaisionally moves around but not often. He always comes to the surface for meal times and when I approach though.

One thing that seems to be improved abit are his cloudy eyes. The white film is alot less, almost clear. Now I can see a solid white C shape in one???


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

Oh my goodness. 

I just caught up with your threads.. poor fish! And poor you! I have not seen anything like this.. the stuff in his nostrils looks like cottonmouth.. acts like cottonmouth (the shedding, getting worse when heat is raised..) but if it didn't respond to Kanaplex _at all_, I have to doubt that flexibacter/columnaris (or flavobacterium, whatever, it seems to change name every other week) will be the cause. So.. true fungus.. or flukes.. yipes, I wish I could be more help!

I am so sorry about your bettas, I know how you've worried over them and done all you can, it must be horribly frustrating.

Please do share whatever shows up on your microscope? I would love to know what's causing this weird nose/gill stuff..


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## ANHEL123 (Jul 21, 2010)

I know i feel so bad. I think it it would be columnaris the girl would already have the same?? 

Also i think if you still doing aquarium salt just continue. It always better to finish it anyway. And it 10 days course. And i think inordinately continue with water changes.


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## Aus (Feb 3, 2012)

See, this is the thing, Anhel - columnaris manifests in several different ways, from cottonmouth to fin rot, to body 'fungus', breathing distress, septicemia... so many different ways. And it doesn't always infect other fish, and if so not always in the same way. Rotten stuff. 

But here, the male's problem hasn't responded one bit to Kanaplex, which is said to be among the best drugs for columnaris. Which means it's probably something else, despite that it really looks like it and gets worse with heat.. Flukes or a true fungus are the only things that make sense to me currently.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Hi glutenfreemama. I'm so sorry you're going through all this.

From the pics and your description of his symptoms, it sounds like there's a distinct possibility your boy has either gill/skin flukes or anchor worms. I'm leaning toward anchor worms because they are more often visible, whereas flukes have to get quite big before they can be seen with the naked eye. 

There are two routes you can go with this. One is the natural route suggested by OFL. Unfortunately, I don't think AQ salt kills anchor worms or flukes as it does with so many other parasites. At most, it will help your boy create enough slime coat that the worms*may* fall off. 

For medical treatment you have a few options. A readily available med is API General Cure, which may or may not be effective. If he has gill/skin flukes, it should help but if he has anchor worms, he may need a very potent medication called Clout. Clout kills just about any kind of protozoan imaginable. 

Another option to try is a formalin-based medication. Care must be taken not to overdose with either Clout or formalin; the latter is actually a form of formaldehyde. You may need to order these medications online (try www.drsfostersmith.com) or go to a local aquarium store.

Your female may, possibly, have a tumor.  Is she eating and pooping normally? If she is but she still has that bulge, my best guess is tumor. An affected fish can live comfortable for quite some time with tumors, though. I have two girls right now who have enormous tumors but they are doing well. If you can describe your female's symptoms a little more, I might be able to tell if it's parasitic or not.


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

Just checking in for an update, and I have some promising news:-D

I looked at the white under my microscope and all I saw were cells. I also looked at my boy with a 6x magnify glass and can not see any worms. There for I have held off on treatment for it. I'm not saying he doesn't have it but just looking for more clues. 

Since he was getting so stressed and unwell every water change I lessened frequency to every other day 100%. Also increased the aquarium salt to 2.5tsp per gallon. 

Now here is the interesting part as far as more clues go..........:-?
Yesterday I went to feed him breakfast and was shocked to see a brown clump of tissue hanging out of his affected gill. It was the size of a small pea!!!! I have no idea how something so large could come out of him........I was going to take a pic for all of you but he started his wiggling around as he does everytime I approach. This caused it to come off when it rubbed against his plant. Then another wiggle pushed a smaller pinkish brown piece out. 

I obtained the pieces and looked at them under my microscope and can't make anything out of what I see. Just clumps and some small black speck the do not move..( my microscope is not working great to magnify further)

:lol:Now for the good news....there has been no other white stuff coming out of his gills!!! ( I am lead to assume it was slime coat/ mucus trying to flush whatever that stuff was out. Also the white across his nose is a lot less and only one 2mm x 1mm piece!! His color has improved a fair amount and His eyes are clearer!!

He still is having some balance issues and trouble catching his pellets but we are definitely in the right direction!!

Thank you for all the ongoing support and I will try to post a pic of the stuff that came from his gills when I am on my laptop because I am not sure how to from my iPad.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

If he did have gill flukes or skin flukes, his first reaction to the infestation would be to create excess slime coat which can create a thick mucousy appearance at the gills.

It is possible that the brown stuff coming out of his gills was food. Sometimes if the food is too big or if a fish eats like a piggy and somehow swallows wrong, food emerges from the gills. Some fish feed this way, sifting sand for food and then expelling the sand through the gills. If he eats pellets, it could have been a pellet that emerged, bloated up from being in the water.

I am very happy to hear his "tests" came back negative.  Yay for him!


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## BETTACHKALOVE (Nov 22, 2010)

I would think aquarium salt helping. But usually you need 100% daily water changes for 10 days. I think parasites can get dehydrated from salt. And you can use salt up to 3 tsp/gall. Since you don't do daily water changes i guess you going to prolong the treatment and you can do it up to 13 salt treatments. 

Also you saying that he get stressed with 100% water changes. Did you acclimate him?

Another thing usually when you treating for any kind of worms you better to dry out containers he is in between water changes. This way parasites will die without host and dehydrate from salt.

Also i try to follow all post and i think you was doing 25% water changes on 10 gall and 5 gall tank which i think not enough at all. Especially on smaller tanks you need to do more water changes.

Also you have them in the hospital tanks without filter right? I don't think it good idea to use filter now while you treating them.

Am i right Sakura?

How is your girl?


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

BETTACHKA, yes, you're right about the not using filter and about the drying out of the containers. At the very least, rinse them in hot water between uses.


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

I have been using a 2 hospital tanks and alternating them do the other can be rinsed with boiling water and left to dry out. Thanks for the info. 

I'm wondering if I should still purchase a parisite remedy? He is about the same as my last update. I'm wondering if the black specs were/are flukes or similar and the rest that is clearing was a secondary bacterial infection?? Any thoughts? Also my females lump has gotten bigger and is started to look pointed with greatly raised scales on it. I'm noting faint stress lines I believe too.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

It is possible your male got fish lice (commonly called argulus) but those do tend to become quite big, much bigger than specks. Otherwise, with the exception of velvet and ich, external parasites are as a rule invisible to the naked eye. You can still get API General Cure and use that, it is a good all-around external parasite med.

 I wonder if your female has a tumor. Have you perchance fed her any live foods recently, such as live black worms?


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## glutenfreemama (Jul 13, 2012)

That's interesting about the parasites. I might try the api. 

For my female I did feed her frozen brine shrimp thawed. Oh and I'm not sure if you read my post about my friend hatched baby brine shrimp from a science kit and when I was away put them all in my betta tank. They were 24hrs old and she put in there eggs and everything!! I was furious and did a 100% change the next day when I found out.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Oh no! That's terrible! Was it the female's tank that she put them in?

Frozen brine shrimp is perfectly fine. Some times, as I learned the hard way, when you feed some live foods like black worms, they can ball up in the stomach and not be digested properly, causing a bloated point in the belly similar to what you are describing. But brine shrimp won't cause that. Not sure if eating brine shrimp eggs would, though. Have you tried fasting her and putting her in 1 tsp of epsom salt per gallon?


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