# Sticky  Let's Talk: Fin Rot vs. Fin Biting



## lilnaugrim

*Fin Biting vs. Fin Rot​*
Every now and then there is an influx of posts on if my Betta has fin rot and what to do! So here is a thread to explain what you all what to know.

As first time keepers we may read a page on fin rot and then look at our fish and suddenly believe our fish has fin rot! So what do we do? We research and ask around online generally to help your fish because the last thing you want is for your fishes fins to fall off! However, often times we mistake fin rot for fin biting, two very different things for our fish and different approaches are made.

*Fin Biting*​First let's take a look at Fin Biting. Fin biting can be caused by a many various things including; stress, boredom and unknown reasons. Stress is usually the biggest factor first, often when a first is brought home from the store they are stressed and sometimes they take it out on their fins. You may see fish at the store with bitten fins because males are constantly in sight of each other, this frustrates them and since they can't get at the other fish, they take it out on their own fins by biting them. Boredom can also effect the fish if they have nothing to do; no plants to swim through, no décor to hide in and play in and little to no human interaction, they can get bored and decide to bite their fins. Another factor, especially for long finned Halfmoon males, if their tails are so large that it drags the fish down and inhibits their swimming that they will give themselves a "haircut" so they can swim easier.

Fin biting will look rugged at times; sometimes little U shape bites are taken out of the fins. It will never look just simply split, that will be from some décor or plants. Fin biting will happen practically overnight or in a split second and most of the time you won't be around to see it happen. Here are some pictures of fish who have bitten their fins:

Notice the Ribbon effect he now has:







Photo credit Reagan








Photo credit Reagan









Notice this boy has natural black coloration, that is not fin rot.







Photo credit anothernewbetta

Treatment: Sometimes you can cure their biting by finding out what their "tick" is. If they are in view of another Betta, perhaps isolate them and see if that helps. It's all trial and error, some fish love their décor moved around while others absolutely hate it. But in all cases the keeper needs to keep their water clean so their fins do not get infected.
Depending on the tank size its generally recommended twice or three times a week to change the water, getting the bad bacteria out of the water and hopefully keep your fish safe. Using tannins will also help since they are natural antibacterial. Where do you get these tannins? They leach from things such as driftwood, IAL (Indian Almond Leaf), Oak Leaves and non-caffeinated tea (such as Rooibos). 
You can also use vitamins, I generally like to use Vita-Chem bought online to help keep the fish healthy while they regenerate their fins.

*Fin Rot*​
Now Fin Rot is different, fin rot happens because water quality declines and an infection sets in the fins. This is a bacterial infection that can infect any fish but fish that live in smaller environments that aren't properly cared for are more susceptible to getting this rot. This will not happen overnight and you will notice a steady decrease in finnage. Fin rot is not only black but comes in a variety of coloration, black is the more common one seen on mostly blue fish from simply the coloration. White, orange, red and yellow fish tend to see reddened edges like they are sore and they recede. And then the fin will look dead and no longer healthy.
Fin rot can set in from the result of fin biting but it doesn't have to have fin biting to set in.

Treatment: in most cases you only need to do a few things to help your Betta fight off the infection. First off is to improve your water quality, do frequent water changes through the week to help balance out electrolytes and promote the fish to fight off the infection. A high quality diet will also help out*. Warm, clean water is ideal and if you can get a tannins source that will also help stop the infection.
Many people believe that Aquarium Salt is the key to fighting off the infection; this is indeed false and doesn't do what most people believe it does. What aquarium salt does is balance out electrolytes which is a nice thing but not necessary, and secondly it aggravates the slime coat. This is why when you use AQ salt you often will notice a stringy substance coming off your fish, this is extra slime coat he has produced and is now shedding the old coat he had as the new one comes in. This is effective for helping to get rid of Ich, the old slime coat knocks off the parasite which helps to kill off the parasite.
You will notice that in the two major things that salt does, it does not cure fin rot. What it does do is it can sterilize an open wound. This is helpful when your fish does bite his fins; this creates an open wound on the fin for a day or so until it closes up. Fin Rot is not an open wound, think of it as a nasty scab, you wouldn't pour salt on a scab since it doesn't do anything! Now if you opened that scab, then you can use a saline solution to keep it clean until it heals.
So in most cases of fin rot you can; do frequent water changes, use a tannin source for antibacterial properties and make sure his water is warm (80-84*F).

In very bad cases of fin rot medications will be needed, skip the salt and head right for an antibacterial medication such as Triple Sulfa, Erythromycin, Tetracycline, General Cure or KanaPlex. KanaPlex is the best to get if the fin rot is aggressive, you may use a combination of medications but further diagnosis will be needed to tell that. 

This boy has obvious fin deterioration on top of being emaciated. Notice the reddened edges that look sore.








Again, this boy has obvious deterioration.








This poor boy has gotten so far as body rot as well, notice the fin he does have left just looks sort of dead and just hanging onto him.









Regrowth is often mistaken for more fin rot but there are easy ways to tell if it is regrowth. Regenerating fins will appear white or clear in nature, sometimes a little grey-ish depending on the color of the fish. Most of the time though it comes out as white and colors up as normal as it grows out. Sometimes you won't even notice it. Often on dark or black fishes you will see little clear dots at the end of the tail that seemed to appear overnight, this is regrowth which is good!

Also there is natural black coloration. Here is one of my old boys who had a natural black band around his fins, notice how even it looks. Sometimes a fish won't always have an even band around their fins like Jarvis did here but you see that in some parts of the black you can actually see through it and it seems thin. Fin Rot will look much more black than that.


Photo credit lilnaugrim

The same boy from earlier, notice the clear spots that look like holes? Well those aren't holes but in fact they are regrowth of his fin!







Photo credit anothernewbetta

This one also has the clear regrowth, that is what you are aiming for!








It takes time for Betta's to regrow their fins, be patient with them and they will soon flourish. Sometimes it can take months to regrow their fins depending on the damage, sometimes only a few days or a few weeks. As long as you keep their water quality good, you shouldn't have issues with fin rot.



**Note on food quality** for those who are wondering if their food is good enough or not: not all foods are created equal. Many companies use something in their foods called Fillers, they exist simply to do that; fill the food so they don't have to use all the expensive product in their food; cheaper for them to make it. These fillers consist of Wheat, Corn and Soybean which are things that fish cannot digest, same goes for cat and dog foods. Whole Wheat however is often used as a food binder to hold the pellet together so that one is fine, you just don't want it to be the top ingredient.

Take a look at your food ingredients and list the top three, what do they say? In a quality food you are looking for no fillers in the top three ingredients, you want something like Whole Krill, Whole Halibut, Whole Salmon even, these are good products. You don't want Soybean Meal or Corn there. One out of three ingredients as a filler is okay, not the best but it is much better than having all three ingredients as fillers.

New Life Spectrum is currently one of the leading brands along with Atisons Pro Betta (however, I don't believe that food is still being made but I do know some people still sell it online from overstock and whatnot). Omega One comes in second and Aqueon around third or fourth. Foods like TopFin, Tetra and Hikari are no good, again, take a look at the ingredients and tell me what you find.

NLS does have Whole Wheat in it's first three but it is the third food listed and it is a binder in this case, much better than if it were corn or soybean. Another reason I love NLS is because the Thera A formulas have garlic in their food, this is a natural anti-parasitic food which will help ward off internal parasites. Also Betta's loooooove the taste of garlic, I have yet to see a healthy fish turn down NLS. And since NLS is a high quality food, it is easily digestible for your fish, making them healthier. Healthy fish produces healthy fins, a healthy diet will also encourage fin regeneration.

**Note on Pictures** All pictures are from google unless otherwise noted and I do not take credit.

I believe I have covered everything, let me know if you all have any questions and I will do my best to answer them.


----------



## Spectacled

This is awesome. Thank you!
Quick question, if it appears that damage is only being done to the caudal fin, can one assume it's just tail biting?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Spectacled said:


> This is awesome. Thank you!
> Quick question, if it appears that damage is only being done to the caudal fin, can one assume it's just tail biting?


You're welcome!

Good question, and the answer is no. I forgot to add about that too so thanks for reminding me! Fish can bite all their fins to a degree, of course pectoral fins and ventrals are usually a little hard to reach but they can bend around and bite their anal fin, caudal and dorsal if they wanted to. This is harder for PK's or generally short finned girls/boys but they can still do it if they really want to. Generally for short finned fish though, they won't bite their fins because they are heavy since they aren't, but they will bite more from the stress related side of it or boredom. I find though that PK's tend to keep themselves more occupied for whatever reason, whether they can get around faster or whatever, I'm not very sure about that.

Fin biting does come around more with long finned fish in general, the first and foremost reason because their fins are dragging them down and it's frustrating them. But again, they can reach any fin. However, they _are_ more likely to just bite their caudal than the other fins since that one is the easiest for them to reach (lazy fish lol).

If the damage is quick and almost overnight, it is most likely fin biting. Some fish like to nom on their fins slower so they won't take out as big of chunks as much as other fish do. Each fish is different in that aspect, but you will see the U shape marks or ribbon effect like the first picture I posted up there. Where as with fin rot, generally if it starts at the edge of a healthy fin it will look more like it's being burnt off with some flame. Like burnt edges of a paper, how it looks seared and continues to work its way into the fin.

Hope that helped, sorry it was a long answer XD


----------



## mjmercer

Perfect timing on this post... I was starting to notice a few ragged ends on my HM (Knox). It became noticeable about the same time I started seeing some red coloring coming through on his fins, which made me a little nervous thinking it was fin rot (which would be strange considering how religious I am about keeping his water clean).

Now I believe my beautiful blue and white butterfly (who is changing to teal and white) is adding a new color to his spectrum...but it happened so quickly that I'm still watching the red closely. Here are his before biting and after biting (also before red fins and after red fins) photos. Please let me know if you think the red is natural or if I'm being an overly paranoid mother. Tried to include some close up shots but he is a VERY active fish and hard to get pictures of.


----------



## lilnaugrim

mjmercer said:


> Perfect timing on this post... I was starting to notice a few ragged ends on my HM (Knox). It became noticeable about the same time I started seeing some red coloring coming through on his fins, which made me a little nervous thinking it was fin rot (which would be strange considering how religious I am about keeping his water clean).
> 
> Now I believe my beautiful blue and white butterfly (who is changing to teal and white) is adding a new color to his spectrum...but it happened so quickly that I'm still watching the red closely. Here are his before biting and after biting (also before red fins and after red fins) photos. Please let me know if you think the red is natural or if I'm being an overly paranoid mother. Tried to include some close up shots but he is a VERY active fish and hard to get pictures of.


Oh my, my! He's beautiful! Yeah, that red is his natural coloration. If it was going to be fin rot or bleeding fins, that tends to happen at the edge of their fins. I need to find a picture of the difference in red, you will notice the red coloration looks different than bleeding red, but I know picture references would help. I'll try to see if I can find refs for you guys later.

But no, he looks like he's just been biting and the red is normal coloration. That often happens to Butterflies where their nice white band turns into the color of the rest of them; normally blue or turquoise (green). And then sometimes they get other colors like red or yellow


----------



## mjmercer

Thank you! When the red first started coming in (obviously more noticeable on the ends in the white) it looked to be a bloody red color and scared the poo out of me! I Googled the heck out of it but could not come up with any good reference pics myself. Now I see the red in his dorsal fin too where he has fin regrowth (it was torn when I got him).

He's become our red, white and blue 'Merica! fish...(my boyfriend's words, not mine)

But he's loved no matter what colors show up on him! Now if I can just get him to quit biting his fins! UGH. I'm thinking this was a case of "this thing is holding me back so I'm going to trim it up"...I hope.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Lol, that's adorable. I would totally name a fish "Murica" and once almost did but unfortunately a friend bought the fish, well a friend from here and she was like 'ooooh heck no, this fish is too pretty to be called Murica!' lol oh well, one day!

But yes, his looks natural and I can see he's got fin regrowth under the red, that clear part is most likely regrowth. He's still growing and he's most likely going to continue to grow his fins out as well as he ages. Hopefully he stops, Fin biting is something I wouldn't even wish upon my worst enemy!


----------



## mjmercer

I appreciate your help! And I'll be doing a water change tonight and some rearranging in his tank...just in case it's boredom. But I'm pretty sure that since I've seen him struggling here and there to get himself turned around (and when he would flare he would just tip over in a different direction every time) that I'm dealing with a little kid who decided to cut their own hair.

He's so active and playful that I couldn't imagine him getting bored. Especially in his divided tank with his buddy on the other side (they've gotten past the flaring and just "chase" each other back and forth for a minute or two every now and then).


----------



## lilnaugrim

Yeah, most likely it's just the hair cut option. I don't find Betta's often who bite from boredom, it has happened of course but it's just not as common as the stress factor or the haircut one is all.


----------



## Sathori

Love that you made this thread! I think every new betta owner should see this thread since it's so easy for new owners to mistake tail biting for fin rot! (I know I did!)

This is Gray's one month journey with tail biting:
He's a marble, who shimmers an electric blue in the right lighting. If you look closely enough at this photo, you can see his tail is fully intact, he just has a clear outline of his marbled tail. (Any red you see in his fins is also natural colour)

I apologize for the poor quality of the photos - he's a very active fish and I only have an iPhone for a camera...








He started tail biting in his 1.5gallon tank, so I moved him into a divided 10 gallon with another male on the other side, hoping the extra space would stop the tail biting. He and the other male rarely flared at each other.








A couple days later, I glance over to see this:














He literally tore a strip out of his tail and was carrying it around like a prize.

So I took out the other male, removed the divider and gave Gray the whole 10 gallon. He was so restless, I would just watch him glass surf, then turn around and chomp on his tail. So I tried tank mates (neons and corydoras), and badda bing badda boom, he has stopped munching on his tail and is slowly letting it grow back!
This is Gray today. You can see the white regrowth on his tail and by his body where he had torn out a strip.
















Also, here's Gajeel, who was on the other side of the divided 10 gallon. He started tail biting when I made the boys switch sides and he could see Gray better. He also has naturally black outlined fins.
Before:








After:








He has since been moved to his own tank and is much happier and has stopped tail biting 

Just thought I'd throw these in for more references, and because I like showing off my boys lol


----------



## lilnaugrim

Thanks for that Sathori! Great pictures and info as well! And yeah, who doesn't like to show off their boys or girls? haha

Also I did forget to mention that, you can use AQ salt at first to sterilize the wound of the fish, around a day is alright to use it for but by then the wound should already be starting to heal unless the fish continues to bite. If it's a chronic biter I wouldn't even use salt since it would end up being too much for the fish and too much salt or medication use can cause Dropsy and ultimately; death.


----------



## Taeanna

I am requesting this either become a sticky or the mods can hopefully move this information elsewhere. I know many people will want to read this over time and I had to trawl through several pages to find it to find the thread link.


----------



## Cari

This is what I woke up to this morning:










I think Flareon is biting his fin  I'm doing a water change today, hopefully it won't stress him out even more, if that's the cause...


----------



## lilnaugrim

Taeanna said:


> I am requesting this either become a sticky or the mods can hopefully move this information elsewhere. I know many people will want to read this over time and I had to trawl through several pages to find it to find the thread link.


I have my own thread bookmarked lol but I agree, this is what I wrote it for; so people would have some sort of reference!



Cari said:


> This is what I woke up to this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Flareon is biting his fin  I'm doing a water change today, hopefully it won't stress him out even more, if that's the cause...


This looks a little more like fin ripping which I didn't include much in the original post. Looks like he's done a little nipping at the top of his caudal but for the most part they are not chunks taken out but they are clean slices in the fins. I see you have many fake plants in the back. Plastic plants are the number one cause for Betta's fins to rip like this. In which time I suggest (I know this takes money and time) to remove all plastic plants and either replace with silk/fabric plants or live plants.

The old trick for most decorations is to run old pantyhose over the decor to see if it snags the hose, if it does then it will also snag your Betta's thin fins. This trick doesn't work as well for plastic plants I find since most edges are fairly smooth but it doesn't mean that they can't cut through thin finnage. So for now, I would suggest taking out all plastic plants so that he doesn't do further damage and then let him heal up while you accumulate some soft fabric plants or real ones if you decide to jump into that.

Live plants is a whole other ordeal and world when it comes down to it so I don't expect anyone to just jump into it, although that's how most of us start in this hobby and then into the plant world too! lol and then from there you learn proper care of what each plant needs and you move on


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

If the Powers that Be would sticky this it would be great! I spent like 20 mins looking for this thread last night!! SUCH good information!


----------



## Valentino14

What an awesome thread!! My Valentino has a tear in his "dorsal" fin that is probably a 1/4 inch big. He's in a 2.5- how often should I do water changes to make it grow back quickly?? Should I add any salt?


----------



## Cari

I was also wondering if I could add something nice to Flareon's water to speed his healing and ensure that his fin doesn't get infected 

I did test all of his decorations on pantyhose and everything was fine. I will definitely see about replacing everything with silk plants


----------



## lilnaugrim

Valentino14 said:


> What an awesome thread!! My Valentino has a tear in his "dorsal" fin that is probably a 1/4 inch big. He's in a 2.5- how often should I do water changes to make it grow back quickly?? Should I add any salt?


As I said about salt in my original post, it is no good for anything except aggrivating the slime coat which can help a little with Ich but not the best course of action if you can help it. It can sterilize wounds like open fins but if it's not a large chunk of fin then I wouldn't use it. Simply water changes and if you can, tannin source will help. Driftwood, IAL, Dried Oak Leaves or a naturally decaffeinated tea like Rooibos tea will add in tannins which have better antibacterial properties than salt does and it's natural for Bettas whereas salt is not naturally found in their habitat.

For a 2.5, just twice weekly water changes around 50% or more will help him 



Cari said:


> I was also wondering if I could add something nice to Flareon's water to speed his healing and ensure that his fin doesn't get infected
> 
> I did test all of his decorations on pantyhose and everything was fine. I will definitely see about replacing everything with silk plants


As posted above, tannins will be your best friend and his along with just frequent water changes. Usually twice a week is good for two weeks or more if they are minor fin ripping or biting issues. 

I find that plants don't adhere to the rule with the pantyhose. I've even had silk plants that were stiffer, rip my boys fins. It's more about how thin the edges are, the thinner the edge of the plant I've found, the more likely they are to rip fins. Silk/fabric plants don't tend to rip as much and hence they are recommended over plastic. No fake plant is technically safe for them though, but of course as I pointed out, we normally don't all go running to the live plants lol. It's just that silk/fabric are safer than all plastic plants, less likely to rip fins.


----------



## mart

lilnaugrim said:


> New Life Spectrum is currently one of the leading brands along with Atisons Pro Betta (however, I don't believe that food is still being made but I do know some people still sell it online from overstock and whatnot). Omega One comes in second and Aqueon around third or fourth. Foods like TopFin, Tetra and Hikari are no good, again, take a look at the ingredients and tell me what you find.





> New Life Spectrum is currently one of the leading brands along with Atisons Pro Betta (however, I don't believe that food is still being made but I do know some people still sell it online from overstock and whatnot). Omega One comes in second and Aqueon around third or fourth. Foods like TopFin, Tetra and Hikari are no good, again, take a look at the ingredients and tell me what you find.


Yes Atisons is still making the food. I found their website. I just ordered some NLS.


----------



## lilnaugrim

mart said:


> Yes Atisons is still making the food. I found their website. I just ordered some NLS.


I know they had gone out of business or something for a while where they weren't making it. I don't believe it is the same exact formula they were using before though. If you can find the old formula then that is good! But if I remember correctly, the new formula isn't as good.


----------



## mart

lilnaugrim said:


> I know they had gone out of business or something for a while where they weren't making it. I don't believe it is the same exact formula they were using before though. If you can find the old formula then that is good! But if I remember correctly, the new formula isn't as good.


Ok. Well this is the site. You may want to check the ingredients and such to see.
http://www.oceannutrition.com/?post=atisons-betta-food


Now, I want your opinion on this plant, since it's the only one Buddy has in his tank. Do you think this would tear his fins, I noticed you said the finer the material the more likely it would be to tear them. Don't want to put it back in if that's so.
http://www.petco.com/product/119029/Petco-Mini-Red-Feather-Silk-Aquarium-Plant.aspx

Sorry link isn't bringing it up. I'll copy the pic


----------



## mart

Here it is.


----------



## lilnaugrim

mart said:


> Ok. Well this is the site. You may want to check the ingredients and such to see.
> http://www.oceannutrition.com/?post=atisons-betta-food
> 
> 
> Now, I want your opinion on this plant, since it's the only one Buddy has in his tank. Do you think this would tear his fins, I noticed you said the finer the material the more likely it would be to tear them. Don't want to put it back in if that's so.
> http://www.petco.com/product/119029/Petco-Mini-Red-Feather-Silk-Aquarium-Plant.aspx
> 
> Sorry link isn't bringing it up. I'll copy the pic


Well, let's compare the ingredients.

This is for the NEW formula:
Fish meal, cereal meals, krill meal, minerals, vitamins, and preservatives (calcium propionate, ethoxyquin).
Crude Protein (min.) — 36%
Crude Fat (min.) — 4.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 5%
Moisture (max.) — 8%
Ash (max.) — 15%

And for the OLD formula:
Pure brine shrimp embryos, wheat flour, vitamins (stabilized ascorbic acid, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, menadione sodium bisulfate complex, Vitamin A acetate, pyridoxine HCL, Vitamin B12 supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, biotin) and preservatives (calcium propionate, ethoxyquin).

Protein	38.0 % 
Fiber	4.4 % 
Fat	7.5 % 
Ash	7.6 % 
Moisture	10.5 %

Tell me the differences that you see (not just you mart, but for everyone really)

And for that plant, I have a similar one that never caused me issues. I find it's the stiffer leaves that do it. This is the one that ripped my boys' fins: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+20750+21406&pcatid=21406 I absolutely adore the way that plant looks though lol. It only happened to my boy in my avatar, the girls had no issues with it. And that's a nice thing about girl Bettas, they usually don't have issues with fin ripping, nipping or really rot with their fins since they are generally shorter. I had issues with really long finned girls but it was mostly nipping from the sorority girls so I can't technically count that since it wasn't self-inflicted.

I wouldn't panic with the silk/fabric plants (sorry if I made it seem like it was the end of the world for all fake plants >.<), for the most part they ARE safe, definitely safer than plastic ones but there is always the potential there. It varies from Betta to Betta as well! Some have thinner fins than others, some longer than others. Same thing with human hair  You should be fine with that plant mart.


----------



## Cari

Thank you lilnaugrim! This has been really helpful. I've decided on a course of action. The fins were ripped overnight before I did a desperately needed water change (nitrite was over .25, it was spiking even higher throughout the week for some reason so I kept having to do water change after water change--I think that upset Flareon, because he was darting around a lot and glass surfing and I can see how that could be bad with all those plastic plants around to snag on). I did a water change today, water levels are back to normal, and I also rearranged his decorations. He's stopped darting around and glass surfing, and is now calmly swimming about! So I am going to give the decorations a pass for now. But if I see his fins tearing like this again or getting worse, out they go as per your instruction. I am trying to avoid throwing them in the bin unless it's absolutely necessary because I don't have the receipts anymore so I can't get my money back, and I don't have the funds right at this moment for all new decorations


----------



## lilnaugrim

Sounds good Cari! I hope he heals quickly for you


----------



## mart

lilnaugrim said:


> Well, let's compare the ingredients.
> 
> This is for the NEW formula:
> Fish meal, cereal meals, krill meal, minerals, vitamins, and preservatives (calcium propionate, ethoxyquin).
> Crude Protein (min.) — 36%
> Crude Fat (min.) — 4.5%
> Crude Fiber (max.) — 5%
> Moisture (max.) — 8%
> Ash (max.) — 15%
> 
> And for the OLD formula:
> Pure brine shrimp embryos, wheat flour, vitamins (stabilized ascorbic acid, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, menadione sodium bisulfate complex, Vitamin A acetate, pyridoxine HCL, Vitamin B12 supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, biotin) and preservatives (calcium propionate, ethoxyquin).
> 
> Protein	38.0 %
> Fiber	4.4 %
> Fat	7.5 %
> Ash	7.6 %
> Moisture	10.5 %
> 
> Tell me the differences that you see (not just you mart, but for everyone really)
> 
> And for that plant, I have a similar one that never caused me issues. I find it's the stiffer leaves that do it. This is the one that ripped my boys' fins: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+20750+21406&pcatid=21406 I absolutely adore the way that plant looks though lol. It only happened to my boy in my avatar, the girls had no issues with it. And that's a nice thing about girl Bettas, they usually don't have issues with fin ripping, nipping or really rot with their fins since they are generally shorter. I had issues with really long finned girls but it was mostly nipping from the sorority girls so I can't technically count that since it wasn't self-inflicted.
> 
> I wouldn't panic with the silk/fabric plants (sorry if I made it seem like it was the end of the world for all fake plants >.<), for the most part they ARE safe, definitely safer than plastic ones but there is always the potential there. It varies from Betta to Betta as well! Some have thinner fins than others, some longer than others. Same thing with human hair  You should be fine with that plant mart.



Yeah I see they cheapened it up quite a bit. And removed a lot of ingredients.
Less product quality, more money in their pockets.

I believe that I won't be getting any more males after these two. Men are always more trouble. :lol:

I hope that isn't causing any ripping or tearing for Buddy, because he loves that plant. I just put it back in for him and he immediately went up and rested on it.

I also put a half of IAL in his tank. He just came off a four day Fungus cure. Changed the water this afternoon. Had the IAL from the new boy I bought from a breeder who included them free. Hoping it will finally put an end to the fin rot.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## lilnaugrim

mart said:


> Yeah I see they cheapened it up quite a bit. And removed a lot of ingredients.
> Less product quality, more money in their pockets.
> 
> I believe that I won't be getting any more males after these two. Men are always more trouble. :lol:
> 
> I hope that isn't causing any ripping or tearing for Buddy, because he loves that plant. I just put it back in for him and he immediately went up and rested on it.
> 
> I also put a half of IAL in his tank. He just came off a four day Fungus cure. Changed the water this afternoon. Had the IAL from the new boy I bought from a breeder who included them free. Hoping it will finally put an end to the fin rot.
> 
> Thanks for your input.


Yeah, it is unfortunate they really cheapened up on the food, I don't believe the company is ran by the same people now which would make sense for the shift in different ingredients. Regardless, it's not great. But if anyone can get their hands on the old formula, then that's awesome! As I said, I know some are still able to get it through Ebay sellers or sellers on here.

I hope your boy recovers well and quickly! IAL is great for helping out but water changes are the main key ingredient ;-)


----------



## mart

lilnaugrim said:


> Yeah, it is unfortunate they really cheapened up on the food, I don't believe the company is ran by the same people now which would make sense for the shift in different ingredients. Regardless, it's not great. But if anyone can get their hands on the old formula, then that's awesome! As I said, I know some are still able to get it through Ebay sellers or sellers on here.
> 
> I hope your boy recovers well and quickly! IAL is great for helping out but water changes are the main key ingredient ;-)



Oh yeah I know that. He gets his water changed religiously. He had the rot when I bought him, and it helped that he got frequent water changes, but eventually it caught up with him.
Keeping my fingers and toes crossed. ;-)


----------



## lilnaugrim

mart said:


> Oh yeah I know that. He gets his water changed religiously. He had the rot when I bought him, and it helped that he got frequent water changes, but eventually it caught up with him.
> Keeping my fingers and toes crossed. ;-)


Yup! Well good luck regardless! I'm sure he'll be just fine


----------



## Valentino14

Those are really helpful refrences- thanks! Valentino tore his fin the other day when I was moving him into his bigger home, but I think he had something wrong before I got him because he does have some clear parts to the ends of his fins. He's doing good! It helps to know what to look for!


----------



## Sathori

I would just like to take a moment to say: AHH LOOK AT ALL THE REGROWTH!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Gray's tail is growing in beautifully. I'm really excited (and anxious) to see it back in all its glory


----------



## Taeanna

That is wonderful news! Cant wait to see him all regrown and happy


----------



## Valentino14

yay!!!! Isn't it the best feeling ever?!?!?!?!?! SO happy for you and your little guy!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Awesome! I'm really happy for Gray! He looks fantastic! I hope he continues on this path :-D!


----------



## Sathori

Thanks everyone  I am really happy to have finally found his "cure". I'm very curious as to what is happening to his color - he's changing on me again lol


----------



## Spectacled

So, I was looking over Kaz today and he has some clear regrowth, yay! But he's also got black tips. Is that how his fins are regrowing or did he get a secondary fin rot from an open wound leftover from when he decided his tail was better than food?
He's alone in a 30 gal and he just got a WC about an hour ago.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Sathori said:


> Thanks everyone  I am really happy to have finally found his "cure". I'm very curious as to what is happening to his color - he's changing on me again lol


Awesome ^_^ looks like he's just marbling again. I would say coloring up since there is a difference but since it is more drastic, I would say he's just a regular marble 



Spectacled said:


> So, I was looking over Kaz today and he has some clear regrowth, yay! But he's also got black tips. Is that how his fins are regrowing or did he get a secondary fin rot from an open wound leftover from when he decided his tail was better than food?
> He's alone in a 30 gal and he just got a WC about an hour ago.


This depends, sometimes the clear regrowth can appear blackish in coloration depending on the lights and stuff. Where are the black tips located? Are they at the clear regrowth or in a different place? If it isn't the blackest black you've seen then I wouldn't worry much, but if it is solid black with no iridescence or clearness to it then it could very well be fin rot.


----------



## Sathori

lilnaugrim said:


> Awesome ^_^ looks like he's just marbling again. I would say coloring up since there is a difference but since it is more drastic, I would say he's just a regular marble


Kinda what I thought. I was calling him a marble, then saw someone else get corrected on a different thread that theirs was just "colouring up" since it also went from white with blue to mostly blue. So then I was a bit hesitant to call him a marble since he was just getting darker and darker.

BUT since now I see he's changing again, I am able to safely say he is a marble:lol: He's starting to get a white vertical stripe on the other side of his body as well now.. Guess we will see where it goes


----------



## lilnaugrim

Sathori said:


> Kinda what I thought. I was calling him a marble, then saw someone else get corrected on a different thread that theirs was just "colouring up" since it also went from white with blue to mostly blue. So then I was a bit hesitant to call him a marble since he was just getting darker and darker.
> 
> BUT since now I see he's changing again, I am able to safely say he is a marble:lol: He's starting to get a white vertical stripe on the other side of his body as well now.. Guess we will see where it goes


Yeah, I saw that thread too ^_^ makes sense of what Hallyx was saying!

Coloring up is generally if the fish is mostly white or light colored and a darker color ends up taking over the coloration. From there the color change mostly stops when the fish has almost entirely cover in the darker color. Now for Marbles, marbles will keep changing unlike a fish who has just colored up. So since your boy is reverting back to white/pale colors, that is pretty drastic and not in the 'area' of coloring up. So yes, I would say he is a marble


----------



## mart

lilnaugrim said:


> New Life Spectrum is currently one of the leading brands along with Atisons Pro Betta (however, I don't believe that food is still being made but I do know some people still sell it online from overstock and whatnot). Omega One comes in second and Aqueon around third or fourth. Foods like TopFin, Tetra and Hikari are no good, again, take a look at the ingredients and tell me what you find.
> 
> NLS does have Whole Wheat in it's first three but it is the third food listed and it is a binder in this case, much better than if it were corn or soybean. Another reason I love NLS is because the Thera A formulas have garlic in their food, this is a natural anti-parasitic food which will help ward off internal parasites. Also Betta's loooooove the taste of garlic, I have yet to see a healthy fish turn down NLS. And since NLS is a high quality food, it is easily digestible for your fish, making them healthier. Healthy fish produces healthy fins, a healthy diet will also encourage fin regeneration.



BTW, both my fish spit out the NLS. One ate three and then puked them out. 
Went back to the Aqueon and Hikari, and they are fine.
So now I'm stuck with a jar of NLS.


----------



## lilnaugrim

mart said:


> BTW, both my fish spit out the NLS. One ate three and then puked them out.
> Went back to the Aqueon and Hikari, and they are fine.
> So now I'm stuck with a jar of NLS.


which NLS did you get? Small Fish or the regular formula?

You can always sell it here on the forum, plenty of people would be willing to take it, heck, I'd take it!


----------



## mart

lilnaugrim said:


> which NLS did you get? Small Fish or the regular formula?
> 
> You can always sell it here on the forum, plenty of people would be willing to take it, heck, I'd take it!


It says:

New Life Spectrum Betta Formula 1mm semi floating. Only thing they had.


----------



## Spectacled

I've got another random question.
Apparently Kaz is mad about something. He's gnawing on his tail again (I think, based on the pictures). But I don't think he's stressed or upset. He's actually more active and curious than he's ever been in the month I've had him. He's hanging out in his cave, he's exploring his dragon's mouth, he's not glass surfing, etc.
Any advice? I've got a QT set up, but I'd rather not upset him any more than he is. He gets stress stripes when I do a 25% WC. He's fickle.


----------



## lilnaugrim

mart said:


> It says:
> 
> New Life Spectrum Betta Formula 1mm semi floating. Only thing they had.


Okay, those are the bigger ones of the two pellets. Most likely they are just having a hard time swallowing them, try breaking them in half or crushing them to see if that helps. Can't hurt to try!



Spectacled said:


> I've got another random question.
> Apparently Kaz is mad about something. He's gnawing on his tail again (I think, based on the pictures). But I don't think he's stressed or upset. He's actually more active and curious than he's ever been in the month I've had him. He's hanging out in his cave, he's exploring his dragon's mouth, he's not glass surfing, etc.
> Any advice? I've got a QT set up, but I'd rather not upset him any more than he is. He gets stress stripes when I do a 25% WC. He's fickle.


He doesn't have that long of a tail, does he? It's possible that he just feels dragged down by his tail, usually that isn't an issue except for HM's and DeT's who have exceptionally large tails. Does he have a lot of plants (fake or real) in his tank? For my over sized finned males I make sure they have tall leafy plants so that they can rest when they want and not feel like they are carrying 100 pounds of fin behind them, this generally reduces the want to bite if it is from heaviness of the fin.

Have you changed anything in his tank lately? Added or taken out?


----------



## Spectacled

lilnaugrim said:


> Okay, those are the bigger ones of the two pellets. Most likely they are just having a hard time swallowing them, try breaking them in half or crushing them to see if that helps. Can't hurt to try!
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't have that long of a tail, does he? It's possible that he just feels dragged down by his tail, usually that isn't an issue except for HM's and DeT's who have exceptionally large tails. Does he have a lot of plants (fake or real) in his tank? For my over sized finned males I make sure they have tall leafy plants so that they can rest when they want and not feel like they are carrying 100 pounds of fin behind them, this generally reduces the want to bite if it is from heaviness of the fin.
> 
> Have you changed anything in his tank lately? Added or taken out?


I don't think he's weighed down. He's a standard VT. He has two tall plants, a hammock and his beloved floating log. My next paycheck, he's getting more, but I had some unexpected expenses that ate my current one (stupid tires -mumblegrumble-)
And the only thing I've "changed" was my conditioner because I ran out of what I was using (stresscoat +) and had to resort to my quick start conditioner. His log floats around, but he enjoys chasing it and seeing if he can swim through while it's moving. And like I stated, he's actually more active and happy than I've seen him in a very long time. He's even happily eating his pellets.
Weird, weird boy.

EDIT: My avatar is him the day I got him. I haven't been able to get a super recent picture of the newest development. But you can see that he doesn't look too heavy finned.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Spectacled said:


> I don't think he's weighed down. He's a standard VT. He has two tall plants, a hammock and his beloved floating log. My next paycheck, he's getting more, but I had some unexpected expenses that ate my current one (stupid tires -mumblegrumble-)
> And the only thing I've "changed" was my conditioner because I ran out of what I was using (stresscoat +) and had to resort to my quick start conditioner. His log floats around, but he enjoys chasing it and seeing if he can swim through while it's moving. And like I stated, he's actually more active and happy than I've seen him in a very long time. He's even happily eating his pellets.
> Weird, weird boy.


Yeah, I didn't think he would really feel weighed down at all, just a thought. It could have just been something in passing. I know Rembrandt bit his tail once just to spite me, no rhyme or reason for it, never did it again until just recently when I had him temporarily in a divided tank, he basically destroyed his fins because he couldn't get at the other Betta to fight, he got frustrated and bit his own fins >.> So yeah, it could have just been something completely random. As I've mentioned before, it is difficult to pin point why they bite their fins generally.


----------



## Spectacled

lilnaugrim said:


> Yeah, I didn't think he would really feel weighed down at all, just a thought. It could have just been something in passing. I know Rembrandt bit his tail once just to spite me, no rhyme or reason for it, never did it again until just recently when I had him temporarily in a divided tank, he basically destroyed his fins because he couldn't get at the other Betta to fight, he got frustrated and bit his own fins >.> So yeah, it could have just been something completely random. As I've mentioned before, it is difficult to pin point why they bite their fins generally.


Every morning after playtime, I give him his three pellets and wiggle my finger at him and tell him, "No tail biting today!" and he generally yawns at me. He's mocking me. I know it.
Thanks for the help! You're the bomb diggity.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Spectacled said:


> Every morning after playtime, I give him his three pellets and wiggle my finger at him and tell him, "No tail biting today!" and he generally yawns at me. He's mocking me. I know it.
> Thanks for the help! You're the bomb diggity.


Lol that made me giggle! Well let's hope he listens to you!! :-D


----------



## LaniBaby

What if you see pinholes in the fins? Is that in any way indicative of fin biting? Or is that likely rot?


----------



## Taeanna

Pinholes are either from rot or a blowout waiting to ladder all the way through. 
If its a blowout the hole slowly tears the fin open until there is a clean split.
Rot holes will appear and take a long time to re-knit closed, however they do not often need medicating unless the holes begin to necrose outwards.


----------



## lilnaugrim

+1 to Taeanna


----------



## aselvarial

This is an awesome thread! Thanks for posting it! I have a quick question that wasn't answered. My orange VT AB has had the very ends of his fins going translucent. He had a nitrate and nitrite spike (didn't find out about cycling til after we got him, so doing a fish-in cycle). Is it possible this is early fin rot? Or is it just his fins? or something else entirely? I changed the water immediately after I noticed his fins were starting to go translucent and it seems to have stopped where they were, but I can't tell if his fins are getting LONGER, or if the ends have been damaged! (btw, no that isn't his regular tank, that is the "water change" tank)


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

His fins do look a little short, and that looks like new growth to me!


----------



## aselvarial

awesome. yeah, he's only been home like a month so i've been told his fins should get longer. I just have no idea where they grow from! you know, do they grow from his body or from the ends. (never had a betta before now we have two!) But yay! I'm so happy you think that looks like new growth and not damage! I was worried!


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

Definitely from the tips!! 
They're so addicting, don't expect to just have 2 for long!


----------



## aselvarial

lol i'm already planning my third!  Now that LG is feeling better, and I don't have to worry about AB's fins rotting (yet), yeah, we are already planning a third.


----------



## lilnaugrim

The best advice I can give is to take pictures daily or mostly daily, this way you can monitor the growth or recession and see just how fast he's healing/getting worse! But yes, it does look like his fins are growing out! It's a little hard to tell since it is dark, there is still the possibility of fin rot especially in the tank that is cycling; that's pretty normal. So just keep up with water changes to keep the water healthy and give him a healthy and protein rich diet to encourage fin growth and if it is rot; encourage him to fight it off. If it is fin rot it is extremely mild at the moment so he should be able to fight it off on his own very well ^_^


----------



## aselvarial

I looked today and the translucent areas seem to be darkening a little. And I compared it to his earlier pictures, and his fins really are longer now. The back fin (i have no idea what the names are) now touches the bottom fin, which it didn't do before. I'm staying on top of both their water changes. AB is my 4 year olds fish and I really don't want to have to explain death to a 4 year old yet.  So yay, one month at home and he has longer fins! I knew there was a possibility of fin rot with a fish in cycle, so when I saw the translucent spots, I panicked. I'm all "NO!!! i love those fins!!"


----------



## lilnaugrim

aselvarial said:


> I looked today and the translucent areas seem to be darkening a little. And I compared it to his earlier pictures, and his fins really are longer now. The back fin (i have no idea what the names are) now touches the bottom fin, which it didn't do before. I'm staying on top of both their water changes. AB is my 4 year olds fish and I really don't want to have to explain death to a 4 year old yet.  So yay, one month at home and he has longer fins! I knew there was a possibility of fin rot with a fish in cycle, so when I saw the translucent spots, I panicked. I'm all "NO!!! i love those fins!!"


Yay! Hopefully he continues to grow them out :-D Yeah, if they are translucent but have extended then that is his new growth coming in :-D


----------



## Micherie

My boy experience a tear, then a chunk missing, and now a hole!! Is it all biting?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Micherie said:


> My boy experience a tear, then a chunk missing, and now a hole!! Is it all biting?


It sounds like he snagged it on something, got frustrated with it and bit a chunk out and then went around flaring to show off lol. Holes generally come from fins stretching too much and tearing apart creating small holes, sometimes larger holes depending on the fin and how much it was stretched out.


----------



## Micherie

lilnaugrim said:


> It sounds like he snagged it on something, got frustrated with it and bit a chunk out and then went around flaring to show off lol. Holes generally come from fins stretching too much and tearing apart creating small holes, sometimes larger holes depending on the fin and how much it was stretched out.


Wow... crazy.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Micherie said:


> Wow... crazy.


Just a theory but it is probable ^_^


----------



## bettafishfins

Can we make this a sticky?


----------



## lilnaugrim

bettafishfins said:


> Can we make this a sticky?


I believe you would have to send a request to a mod for that to happen


----------



## Micherie

*Thank you!!*

I've been doing large water changes every day for two days thanks to your suggestions and he's got some new growth coming in!! THANK YOU!!! :-D


----------



## lilnaugrim

Exciting Micherie!! Unfortunately I can't see the picture >.< but I'm glad he's got new growth!!! :redyay:


----------



## Micherie

It's rare for the pictures that I upload to stay uploaded. I don't know why.


----------



## Betta Nut

Just a shameless bump so this thread can keep helping people who aren't sure what's going on with their betta fins


----------



## Micherie

Us Newbs appreciate it!


----------



## lilnaugrim

:-D!


----------



## Sopoko

I'm a little worried about my betta. The other day I woke up and his tail, dorsal, and anal fin all had some tearing on them. He has a natural band around the edge of his fins, so I'm not sure if its just tail biting or fin rot.
This picture is a little dark because it was on my phone, but the edge is as blue as his body and thin enough that you can kind of see through them, which I saw in this thread means it is probably just the natural color.










He may have just been bored or mad at me for messing up his bubble nest when cleaning the tank. I only have silk plants and the popular "hammock" leaf so I'm pretty sure that decor is not the problem.


----------



## Micherie

I thought my fish's problem was biting and tearing from decor and maybe it started out that way, but it quickly (within a week's time) turned into something much worse and it nearly killed him. 

I found him laying on his side at the bottom of the tank and immediately quarantined him. It's been a week and he is still not out of the woods, but I started a salt treatment on Sunday and he finally has 1/8th of an inch of new fin growth. However, he was not interested in food this morning and wasn't his normal happy self so I don't know what I will find when I get home today.

All I can say is keep a very close eye on it. People say fin rot makes a dark or black edge. Bunta's fins never really got a dark edge, but the edges did look sore and thinned out and they were literally shredding and disintegrating at a rapid pace. He started out with a beautiful 1 /34-2" veil anal fin and now it's only 1/2" long 

Here's to hoping mine (and yours) make a full recovery.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Sopoko, it looks like he's got a mix of biting and some tearing, has he got any plastic or harder plants/decor in his tank with him? Yes the black is natural, nothing to worry about.

Micherie, did you make a thread about him?


----------



## Sopoko

@lilnagurim: Nothing fully plastic except for the edge of his leaf/hammock and the stems of the plants. He has a Petco Anubias plant and he would get himself between it and the wall so I moved it out of the way after I saw him trying to hide there. I have a little plant pot in the bottom now for him to hide in.
For now I'll just make sure he doesn't do anything silly like wedging between plants anymore.


----------



## Micherie

lilnaugrim said:


> Micherie, did you make a thread about him?


I did post a 911 but hardly anyone responded. He and I have been on our own with this one. The aquarium store close to me sold me Melafix, but then I've been reading that it's bad for Betta so I stopped it and started a salt program. 

I just got home from work and he is ok. I guess he just was not feeling up to eating this morning. He just now happily took a bite of pea. Even jumped for it. I'd like to think that's a good sign


----------



## Micherie

Here's a progression photo of Bunta's fin rot....


----------



## Sathori

*Update on Gray! *

Just thought I'd toss in this update on Grey, the betta who made me pull my hair out because he was pulling his fins out! 

Before:














A bit later (Got some regrowth!)









And now! Apparently he decided the regrown part of his fins should be red instead of black/blue. *shrug* I guess that's marbles for ya


----------



## Micherie

Aaaawww!!! He's a beauty!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Micherie, that's not fin rot, he's biting himself. That is why it's progressing so quickly; he's biting it when you aren't looking. In picture 5 where you say his fins are darkening is actually not rot either. Regrowth can sometimes look blackened depending on the lighting situation and environment. 

Here's one of my boy's Aero who kind of got beat up by my giant who jumped the divider >.< In this pic he looks like he's gotten a bit of fin rot but it's just the angle of the picture


And this one you can tell a little bit more it's fin growth. Remember I said fin rot would look extremely black or very red and sore looking? This looks more grey-ish.


----------



## Zoonoo

Awesome post! Wish this had been around for me to see when I was a brand new betta owner trying to figure out what my poor Gawain had done to his tail. Thought I'd contribute a few pictures of his biting habit as it progressed last year, since I didn't see any up of what it looks like on clear fins:
















He has since completely stopped tail biting (bite-free for almost a year now!), and to this day I couldn't begin to tell you why he started or for that matter why he stopped. In the end I just resigned to the fact that he had a nervous habit and kept his water super clean. I also kept a very low dose of methylene blue in his water at all times as a general disease prevention measure for those open tears.
Sadly I don't have any lovely "after" pictures as he's come down with a separate very ugly fin problem that I can't seem to kick, but he chomped them down pretty badly and they grew back longer than ever and with interesting new coloring!


----------



## Micherie

He was biting at first then I believe it got infected. His fins weren't just getting shorter. They were getting thinner and more transparent throughout the entire fin, like it was disintegrating. Ever since I put him in quarantine he has been improving and once I started the salt, the fin started to grow back. All signs of fin rot or infection at the very least, IMO.


----------



## BlueLacee

im scared to see my fish if it I ever get it back (long story).

My fish is deffinatly one who has problems with décor change, he flared at his rock every morning


----------



## Micherie

Here's a new photo. This morning he has developed this weird yellow/whitish film all over his body. (The arrow is pointing to it). 

In this photo you can see the 'disintegration of the entire fin all at once' that I'm talking about. You can also see quite a bit of fin growth as well. 

To be honest... I have no clue what's going on with him. I just wish he would get well.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Thank you for the story Zoonoo!

Micherie, the 'thinned' fin is actually because he's stressed or at least most likely it is. When fish become stressed they can lose their color momentarily or for however long they are stressed. Red and Black are the two colors that fade the most notably, becoming almost completely transparent or extremely dull. So he looks like he's thinned but it's just because the color isn't there at the moment from stress. The yellow-ish stuff looks like excess slime coat building up which is common after use of salt.

I had this girl a while back who now belongs to Feng but this is what she looked like when she was stressed:


And then not stressed, quite the difference huh?


----------



## Micherie

INTERESTING!!! What could possibly be stressing him in quarantine, I wonder. Sigh.:shock:


----------



## lilnaugrim

lol, yeah got to love these fishes that steal our hearts and throw them out the window when everything goes wrong or nearly wrong :roll:  You could take him off salt though since it's not going to help his fins heal up from here out since they are already sealed and healing up. If he continues to bite then let's hope you can find his trigger whether it be you don't spend enough time with him, he doesn't like the heater light, doesn't like you changing his decor, or wants you to change his decor! They've got some pretty crazy reasons for biting sometimes!!!


----------



## Sopoko

*Update*

Wanted to let everyone here know that after a water change, my little guy is happily back to making bubbles!


----------



## Micherie

I don't know if I'm right or not, but I always consider that a good sign


----------



## lilnaugrim

It's a sign that his two out of three needs have been met: Food and Shelter, Mating is the third. It's the three basic needs for survival but if it makes you more comfortable then you can take it as a good sign ^_^

I'm glad he's doing better though, you and Sathori!


----------



## doomslug

So I woke up to my betta having two little U shaped gaps in his tail. They look like the fourth picture under tailbiting (the blue body/red tail). I am guessing he bit it - not sure why. I had made a mesh floaty tube for him to lounge in, but that was the only change from normal life. My best guess is when he was lounging in the tube he decided to bite. Cause he could. Cause he knew it would make me sad ><. I've since removed the floaty tube.

I already do daily water changes (50-66%, it's a small tank, so not a ton of work), and I am going to do another few days of rooibos infusions to help him feel a bit more at ease. Is there anything else I need to do or is it pretty much just waiting game for a while?


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

Can we see a picture of his tank?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Sorry to hear that doomslug, yeah your care seems good to me now just the waiting game :-/ That's the worst part about the whole thing I swear! Pics would help out though as haveyouhadyourteayet posted ^_^


----------



## doomslug

Alright, this photo is *terrible* but bear with me










The tank is the Tetra 1.5 gal kit. Don't buy it. If I had known it was this terrible I would have found a better option. I'm working towards getting him new digs asap - ideally a 5 gallon. I have the filter and heater for it, I just need to finagle some stuff to get the physical tank and a suitable lid/light.

Not pictured is the mesh tube I fabricated for him. That can be seen here









(I added a little opening in the middle for him to get in that way. He seemed to like this alot better.)

The tube was the only new thing I added to the tank recently - He seemed to want a surface level hide cause he likes the way that purple plant is positioned and hangs out in there a lot. I thought the tube would be the answer, and it was working - he was in there all the time when it was in place! My only thought is that it put his tail within strike range or something and that's why he bit. 

The only other issue he has had are some slight glass surfing that I've gotten under control via novel objects next to the tank. He'd rather look at them instead, which is kinda of adorable. I'll be keeping a sharp eye on his tail for now, hopefully it'll regrow soon!


----------



## Micherie

I made one of those for my betta and he loves it. I cut it shorter so he can swim all the way through and out the other side and I raised it a bit so that he can come up for air while he's in it and he uses it all the time. He sleeps there at night. 

It looks like he can't swim all the way through and maybe try raising it a little. Maybe he would like a black one better? Looks pretty bright in there


----------



## doomslug

Micherie said:


> I made one of those for my betta and he loves it. I cut it shorter so he can swim all the way through and out the other side and I raised it a bit so that he can come up for air while he's in it and he uses it all the time. He sleeps there at night.
> 
> It looks like he can't swim all the way through and maybe try raising it a little. Maybe he would like a black one better? Looks pretty bright in there


There's actually an opening in the side of it now - I took that photo before I decided to add that in because I realized to was a bit too large. I made a smaller one as well but he didn't seem to like it as much =/. How do you get it to stay raised? I'd love to do that - It'd make a perfect little bed for him then.

It also doesn't reflect nearly as bad as it does in that photo - that was taken on my phone. I like making them though so the next time I am at the store I may get the black mesh anyway to try out.


----------



## Micherie

At the craft store I bought two suction cups that had these hooks on them and I hang it from there. You can kind of see them in this photo. You have to keep the metal out of the water tho.


----------



## haveyouhadyourteayet

It's a pretty barren tank. Perhaps giving him more to interact with would help some. I think more top hides/hides in general would help


----------



## Betta Nut

tra-la-la.. another shameless bump 

Putting in sticky request!


----------



## carolina48

This should definitely be a sticky! Great post!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Well we're actually trying to get rid of a lot of stickies and clean them up but thanks everyone! I can however, make it an article so I'll see about cleaning up the format and submitting it to the reference team/mods to read over and correct any wrong information to become an article!

But mostly I'm just glad this helps everyone for the time being ^_^ I know I've got a few more "Let's Talk" threads to write up, it's been super busy lately with college finals but hopefully I'll have some time soon!


----------



## hubbley

This is really great! I'm glad I found this. 
Unfortunately I am still not sure if our boy Norman has fin rot. His front red fins have two black tips, but one is still white. I honestly can't remember if they've always been like that. It's like that on both, almost symmetrical...I'm so conflicted. I've been trying to take a picture but he just won't sit still for me!
Anyways, I bought aquarium salt because I read it would help, and now after this I'm not sure. Any suggestions? I've been all over this site trying to figure it out.


----------



## Micherie

Aquarium salt and a quarantine in a warm and dark 1 gallon bowl helped my boy get better


----------



## hubbley

I set up a bowl earlier with a bit of gravel, his favorite fake plant and aquarium salt treated water. Might need to transfer the heater to keep it warm enough. I'm just not sure if it's his coloring because he's a very dark fish to begin with. He's my first, so naturally I'm always concerned about him.


----------



## lilnaugrim

You don't need the aq salt if you do frequent enough water changes. As I stated in my original post.

I'd need pictures to really determine if it wasn't fin rot because it may not be fin rot and why would you treat a fish that isn't sick?


----------



## hubbley

We haven't done a major water change yet since he was moved in to the tank recently. We will be doing one over the weekend.
These are the best pictures I have right now.


----------



## Micherie

hubbley said:


> I set up a bowl earlier with a bit of gravel, his favorite fake plant and aquarium salt treated water. Might need to transfer the heater to keep it warm enough. I'm just not sure if it's his coloring because he's a very dark fish to begin with. He's my first, so naturally I'm always concerned about him.


Mine is my first, too, and I went so insane about him that I ended up spending waaaaaaay too much money on him and I worried about him constantly. Now that I've had him about 3 months I'm like 'meh' he's fine. Funny how that happens.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Yeah he's fine, no fin rot on him ^_^ It's normal for the ventral to have blackish tips for dark blue bettas and then the white is the fin still growing out. Ventrals grow out slow and so they'll color up red in time


----------



## hubbley

Micherie said:


> Mine is my first, too, and I went so insane about him that I ended up spending waaaaaaay too much money on him and I worried about him constantly. Now that I've had him about 3 months I'm like 'meh' he's fine. Funny how that happens.


Oh I know. We first bought just the bowl, some gravel, a little rock for him to swim through and plastic grass. And then about a week later we were just obsessed with him and bought this tank and more (fake) plants. We spent a lot of money on him at once. ;D We've only had him for a month, so I'm still getting to that point where I'm like "he's fine." I even bought some freeze dried blood worms today to switch things up, but he didn't even eat it. He watched it float into the nearest plant. Picky little things. He's our baby, though. 



Really? No fin rot? Phew, that makes me feel better! I'll still keep the aquarium salt around since I already have it, just in case. Thank you though!


----------



## Bubbaloo

*rot or biting I'm new at this and can't tell*








i can't tell whether this is him biting or whether it is fin rot? 
I did a 100% water change in my 1 gallon bowl and everything seemed fine all day then the next day i woke up and his tail was much shorter as seen in the picture i assumed it was fin rot and started treating it but later that day it was worse and then the next day it seemed to look the same and after a couple of days it remained like that it might have started growing back but its really hard to tell i then moved him from the one gallon to a 2.5 gallon with a filter he seemed to love the tank at first and was fine for the last 2 days swimming around and playing with the rocks and little current of the filter but tonight another chunk of his tail is missing and i can't tell whether it is him biting it or whether its rotting HELP!!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Unfortunately it's completely biting.


----------



## carolina48

Bubbaloo said:


> i can't tell whether this is him biting or whether it is fin rot?
> I did a 100% water change in my 1 gallon bowl and everything seemed fine all day then the next day i woke up and his tail was much shorter as seen in the picture i assumed it was fin rot and started treating it but later that day it was worse and then the next day it seemed to look the same and after a couple of days it remained like that it might have started growing back but its really hard to tell i then moved him from the one gallon to a 2.5 gallon with a filter he seemed to love the tank at first and was fine for the last 2 days swimming around and playing with the rocks and little current of the filter but tonight another chunk of his tail is missing and i can't tell whether it is him biting it or whether its rotting HELP!!


It definitely looks like fin biting to me too. No easy solution for that one, but it helps to know your betta's likes and dislikes. For my tail biter, I know he likes eating, things to watch, things to swim through, tank rearranging, snail friends.. basically anything that gives him something to do. He also likes to swim very fast, so I'm convinced he's just not going to let his tail grow past a certain point so it doesn't slow him down. Just do the best you can and keep his tank clean, cycled, and warm to prevent fin rot. Good luck!


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

Great post! Thanks for writing it.


----------



## BettaObsessed

lilnaugrim said:


> Oh my, my! He's beautiful! Yeah, that red is his natural coloration. If it was going to be fin rot or bleeding fins, that tends to happen at the edge of their fins. I need to find a picture of the difference in red, you will notice the red coloration looks different than bleeding red, but I know picture references would help. I'll try to see if I can find refs for you guys later.


Unless you already got refs I thought this might be helpful, my boy Poseidon was merciless with his fins and I believe they started bleeding, or they just got sore red areas, anyway I thought this picture would be good to see a difference.


----------



## FrostPixie

Best thread ever! 

This thread is great for everyone who is unsure of biting vs rot :-D

I had 1 biter, and now I have 2! I swear, Tony learned it from Killian! And 2 reformed biters! That being said... it was a challenge to accept their biting, and I'm working on trying to determine their "tick" so I can stop their biting. Best I can do is keep their tanks clean, warm, darkened with rooibos tea and put in stress coat and feed a slightly higher protein diet so help with regrowth... *cross my fingers* I find their "ticks" soon and their fins start to regrow


----------



## Tree

Wow lilnaugrim this is a perfect thread! I wish I had this when my first betta had fin rot. He passed away sadly, but my other boys were treated the correct way learning the difference between rot and biting.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Thanks Tree!

There will be a better and improved article coming out that also goes over Fin Ripping as well and expands on treatments of all of them too ^_^


----------



## HSN006112

So would you categorize this as fin rot?


----------



## lilnaugrim

No, he's bitten his fins. That bit of grey-ish at the edge is very normal for bitten fins, it's the irritation and part of the dead fin that will eventually heal and regrow.


----------



## HSN006112

lilnaugrim said:


> No, he's bitten his fins. That bit of grey-ish at the edge is very normal for bitten fins, it's the irritation and part of the dead fin that will eventually heal and regrow.





Thank you so much, I was so worried!


----------



## HSN006112

Hi, it's me again. I just noticed some dark gray or black at the end of his tail where he had 'bitten' before. Should I assume it is fin rot? It seems he has stopped biting, there has been no further damage ,given the three days.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

If you haven't already, please start your own post. That way more people will get a chance to see it and be helped themselves. Great photo.

Thanks!


----------



## centaurii

Thanks for this thread, it helped me determine the little bit of tearing I found in my betta's tail is likely due to getting snagged on the fake log decor (it's only one small tear and it's not u-shaped)


----------



## lilnaugrim

Glad to be of service! This thread will be updated soon, as soon as the error messages stop occurring every time I try to edit the new one >.< frustrating!!


----------



## Soriel

Hi lilnaugrim, I have been scrutinizing my 1st Betta, Fishy's fins after he has passed earlier. I wonder if he had finrot as he had these black edges?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Nope, that's not fin rot. He has some CT genes in him which causes web reduction (you can see protruding rays on his dorsal and anal fin as well) and that's just natural coloration that you see there.


----------



## Revosok

Kind of off topic, but can you explain how to prepare oak leaves to be put in the tank, and also if I can just put them in, just to entertain my betta (he is not tail biting, I just want to give him something to play with).


----------



## lilnaugrim

Sure. First off, make sure that they are DRIED oak leaves, oak leaves of any type (though try to avoid leaves that come from Poison Oak or near Poison Ivy of course) will be fine to use. Do not use leaves that are still green because they contain sugars that can leech into the water.

Once you collect your leaves from a pesticide and insecticide free zone, you can just rinse them under water and leave them to dry out somewhere; on paper towel or clipped up or anything really. After that, they're good to use and just plop them in the tank ^_^ You can let them float or force them to sink by pushing them down.


----------



## Soriel

Thanks, lilnaugrim, although I must admit I dont really understand your explanation on CT genes and web reduction but I'm glad he wasn't suffering from fin rot  You must have a PhD in Betta Studies! haha.


----------



## seamonkey

So...would the black edges be fin rot? Or is that a natural coloration? (I'm new to bettas, so I'm not sure what exactly to be looking for.)

Also, apologies if the photos is huge; I'm doing this on my phone.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Soriel said:


> Thanks, lilnaugrim, although I must admit I dont really understand your explanation on CT genes and web reduction but I'm glad he wasn't suffering from fin rot  You must have a PhD in Betta Studies! haha.


Which explanation, where? Sorry, I don't remember everything I post and it might have been an older post?

But lol, if only! I would ace my PhD for Bettas haha!



seamonkey said:


> So...would the black edges be fin rot? Or is that a natural coloration? (I'm new to bettas, so I'm not sure what exactly to be looking for.)
> 
> Also, apologies if the photos is huge; I'm doing this on my phone.


Not fin rot, looks like natural coloration to me. Keep an eye on it though, it's darker than usual normal coloring but I don't see any obvious necrotic tissues which would indicate fin rot or any reduction in the finnage other than that minor tear there on the top lobe of the caudal


----------



## seamonkey

Thank you, lilnaugrim! I'm glad to hear that it isn't fin rot. His fins don't seem to be disappearing so it probably is natural coloration, but we'll keep an eye on it for sure! Thanks again!


----------



## akinsey15

You might have answered this in a post earlier, but I only looked through a few pages so, sorry if it is a duplicate questions.

When they bite are they in any sort of pain? Is there anything (medicine, water treatment, etc.) I need to get to help if they are? I'm still new to Betta's and mine is still only a baby. 

Thanks in advanced!


----------



## lilnaugrim

I haven't answered that specifically but no. Fish don't have the same type of system that we do. The nerves that run through their tail are literally minuscule. Fish do not experience the same kind of pain that we do. Think of it like nail biters; if you go too far then yeah, it may hurt but for the most part, you don't feel it.

As for medication, it's not needed for fin biters. You may see Aloe Vera claim to heal fins but really it doesn't, Aloe is for soothing burns, it doesn't heal the burn (on humans), it just helps the body regenerate itself. It doesn't have the same effect on fish as far as science says. The only thing you need to do is keep your tank clean like you normally would and you can use a preventative measure of Aquarium salt at 1 tsp per 5 gallons of water. Dissolve it first and you can keep your fish in that for an indefinite period of time. This helps to keep infection away, especially important for fin biters since they are opening up a wound for infection to enter if the water isn't clean and they aren't healthy otherwise!


----------



## Mousie

akinsey15 said:


> When they bite are they in any sort of pain? Is there anything (medicine, water treatment, etc.) I need to get to help if they are? I'm still new to Betta's and mine is still only a baby.
> 
> Thanks in advanced!


I don't know if it's painful or not, but any time there is damage to the fins you must be extremely careful to be diligent with your tank maintenance. Fin rot will not have a chance to set in if you stay on top of that.

Kordon Fish Protector is safe enough to add with every single water change. It's not a medication, but will help heal damaged fins and reduce stress during a water change. It adds missing electrolytes, vitamin B12, echinacea, and helps fish produce a healthy slime coat. Worth every penny. I use it in all of my tanks with every water change.


----------



## CourtneyOlivia

I'm curious to know if this is fin rot or fin biting.
I moved him into a much more "planted" tank.
Picture below of the tank.

I assumed he was just bored and needed something to do so he was biting his tail but now I'm not so sure.
He's still active, checked water parameters and everything is perfect.
I'm just curious.

Thanks.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Yeah, that's fin biting. No rot from what I see in the picture, just some irritated fins. Using the preventative measure of Aquarium Salt (1 tsp per 5 gallons), that will help his fins.

It's not just about being bored, it's more often about stress. Stress can come from anything but most commonly it comes from: not enough plant decor/top decor, or too bright of a light. The tank you have him in now has a really good balance so hopefully if it's just the stress, he'll stop his biting and let his fins regrow


----------



## CourtneyOlivia

lilnaugrim said:


> Yeah, that's fin biting. No rot from what I see in the picture, just some irritated fins. Using the preventative measure of Aquarium Salt (1 tsp per 5 gallons), that will help his fins.
> 
> It's not just about being bored, it's more often about stress. Stress can come from anything but most commonly it comes from: not enough plant decor/top decor, or too bright of a light. The tank you have him in now has a really good balance so hopefully if it's just the stress, he'll stop his biting and let his fins regrow


Yay!
Thank you so much! I thought it was fin biting as well since he didn't have the looks for fin rot. 
He was in a really boring tank before so I thought putting more plants/decor in this one would be even better.
Glad he's not suffering.


----------



## BettaBean

This thread is great! I posted recently elsewhere about my betta's tail biting because I'm not sure what to do and he's been really aggressive about it. Every day it gets worse.  I got some catappa leaves and put them in today. I also rearranged his tank so that the plants are a little more concentrated to give him better hiding spots. 







There is an air pump in his tank. Has anyone had problems with these stressing their fish? I took it out for a day to see if the noise was bothering him, but then he kept "yawning" and going to the surface more often so I put it back. 







Here's how it's progressed; I just took the last picture, and it looked better this morning. Every time I leave the house or go to bed, he takes more chunks off. :-( 
I'm using Bettafix for a couple more days and doing water changes a couple times a week. Is there anything else that I can do right now? He was only biting his caudal fin but now he's biting his dorsal and ventral fins as well. I don't want it to keep getting worse. :-(


----------



## lilnaugrim

@BettaBean, your plants look great but maybe add another silk or a tall live plant to bend around the surface so it's not so bright?

I'm in the process of updating this thread and I do include pictures of what tanks should look like for betta's. They do prefer a softer light environment and so if you've got live plants, just means more plants lol but I know they can be expensive sometimes so you can always just add a silk plant or two to see if it helps temporarily.


----------



## BettaBean

lilnaugrim said:


> @BettaBean, your plants look great but maybe add another silk or a tall live plant to bend around the surface so it's not so bright?
> 
> I'm in the process of updating this thread and I do include pictures of what tanks should look like for betta's. They do prefer a softer light environment and so if you've got live plants, just means more plants lol but I know they can be expensive sometimes so you can always just add a silk plant or two to see if it helps temporarily.


Okay, I got another large live one tonight and I'll see if he does any better. If not I'll try an even bigger silk one  Thank you! 
This is just so confusing... His old 2.5 gallon tank was much brighter and had less plant cover and was smaller, but he never bit his tail there or seemed unhappy. I just thought he was a chill fish. Now all of a sudden he's so high strung. :-? Poor baby...


----------



## lilnaugrim

It's also possible that the new tank is "too big" for him, he may enjoy the smaller space. So if it comes down to it, you can try downgrading him back to the 2.5 to see if it helps him out.


----------



## akinsey15

I noticed today that my bettas back tail (I'm sorry I know the names of the fins I just don't know which one is which!) has part of it missing. It used to be rounded. You helped me a couple of weeks ago about a different fin bite. Is this the same thing? I'm starting to wonder if she has fin rot because of the spots on her fin as well. Thanks for all of your help!
I've included one picture of what her tail used to look like.


----------



## BettaBean

lilnaugrim said:


> It's also possible that the new tank is "too big" for him, he may enjoy the smaller space. So if it comes down to it, you can try downgrading him back to the 2.5 to see if it helps him out.


Ohhh that would be a huge bummer. I've spent entirely too much money on this new tank. But he's the boss! haha  I'll see if he adjusts over the next few days, and if he's still biting I guess I'll try moving him back to the 2.5 gal one. There was new fin growth this morning but then he bit it off by the time I got home from class. :roll: Oh well...

Thanks, I appreciate your input! :-D


----------



## akinsey15

sorry to keep posting...i'm just a worried betta mom...

here's an updated picture of her tail form last night. looks to be a bite to me. but i am still worried about the dark edges along her fins in the previous pictures.

what can i do to help stop her biting? i've been doing more frequent water changes to help keep the water super clean and don't know what else to do.

also- a little off topic...when I first noticed she was biting I also noticed one of her eyes was bugling. It's not discolored or anything. just bigger than the other.

thanks again


----------



## lilnaugrim

akinsey15 said:


> sorry to keep posting...i'm just a worried betta mom...
> 
> here's an updated picture of her tail form last night. looks to be a bite to me. but i am still worried about the dark edges along her fins in the previous pictures.
> 
> what can i do to help stop her biting? i've been doing more frequent water changes to help keep the water super clean and don't know what else to do.
> 
> also- a little off topic...when I first noticed she was biting I also noticed one of her eyes was bugling. It's not discolored or anything. just bigger than the other.
> 
> thanks again


Does she have other fish in the tank or just her? If it's just her then yeah, she's biting her own tail. The dark edging is just iritation, it's not fin rot yet. You should add 1 tsp of aquarium salt to 5 gallons of water. So if she's in a 2.5 or something, then you'd use .5 teaspoons of salt. And likewise; a 10 gallon needs 2 teaspoons to make the same concentration, make sense? Basically, it's just enough salt to help her kidney's function better and to prevent fin rot from occurring! It's used as a disinfectant for open wounds like her tail is right now.

The thing about biting is that it normally comes from stress, so, do you have a lot of plants for her to hide in or is the tank open? Open tanks cause lots of stress for Betta's, some fish like open tanks but Bettas are not one of them! They need lots of hides but they don't use hide ornaments as much as they'll appreciate silk or live plants! Stay away from plastic!!! ANother thing you can do is to use Rooibos tea or Oak/Indian Almond Leaves to stain the water (doesn't stain your tank, don't worry, and is easy to remove with a water change) darker to help her calm down. The tannins also help to keep fin rot at bay as well.


----------



## akinsey15

Thank you!

I was confused about the differences between Epsom salt and aquarium salt and used epsom salt over the weekend. hopefully that won't hurt her? (I only let it in for a few hours and then did a 100% water change)

I will try to get some aquarium salt tonight. and maybe another silk plant. she has three in a 2.5 gallon tank along with a mini terra cotta pot as a cave (I blocked off the holes on both sides) and also have lots of gems in the bottom but if they like plants more I will try that.

You mentioned a kidney problem--could that be what's stressing her out? I've noticed her belly is slightly swollen and hasn't gone down any since friday. I don't know what any other symptoms of that would be.

As you can see she is just tearing herself up. I have cried so much over this fish this weekend. hopefully i can help her!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Oh yeah, definitely bitting herself unfortunately :-/ Definitely try to stuff her tank with as many plants as you can get! I know they aren't the cheapest things in the world but it's worth it for sure!

Rooibos tea can usually be found in Wal-Mart too, just have to look for it.


----------



## BettaBean

Sorry to bother you again lilnaugrim...
Bean finally went a night without biting, but it also looks like he might be getting a fungus now.
Here's the new thread I posted for it. I would really appreciate if you have time to look at him.
http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=6757050#post6757050
If the pics aren't clear enough, it basically looks like a fluffy ring around a piece of ray that's sticking out.


----------



## akinsey15

Thank you so so much! I will be going out in about an hour to grab at least one more big plant, maybe two, salt and tea (how do i put the tea in the tank?) for her tank.

Also I realized I forgot to answer one of your questions. She is alone in her tank, so no one else to stress her out or nip at her.

I don't know what is stressing her out (her water is clean and temperature range is between 78-80). I haven't changed anything in the 3 months I've had her so hopefully the salts and more plants will help.

Thank you again so so so much. I'm still trying to learn and what the best for my fish!


----------



## lilnaugrim

BettaBean said:


> Sorry to bother you again lilnaugrim...
> Bean finally went a night without biting, but it also looks like he might be getting a fungus now.
> Here's the new thread I posted for it. I would really appreciate if you have time to look at him.
> http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?p=6757050#post6757050
> If the pics aren't clear enough, it basically looks like a fluffy ring around a piece of ray that's sticking out.


I'll answer you on your other thread so others can see too.



akinsey15 said:


> Thank you so so much! I will be going out in about an hour to grab at least one more big plant, maybe two, salt and tea (how do i put the tea in the tank?) for her tank.
> 
> Also I realized I forgot to answer one of your questions. She is alone in her tank, so no one else to stress her out or nip at her.
> 
> I don't know what is stressing her out (her water is clean and temperature range is between 78-80). I haven't changed anything in the 3 months I've had her so hopefully the salts and more plants will help.
> 
> Thank you again so so so much. I'm still trying to learn and what the best for my fish!


It's easy to put in! Just stick the bag right in the water, no steeping necessary to get the most out of the tannins. Some people will boil the tea bag and let the water cool but I find it more concentrated if you just stick the bag into the tank itself. You may have to 'steep' the bag in the tank a couple times through the hour to spread it around but otherwise, in just a couple hours, you'll definitely see the tea staining the water!


----------



## akinsey15

Thank you so much for your help earlier. 
I went out and got both aquarium salt and rooibos tea for Gracie's water. I have a 2.5 gallon tank so I put in half a teaspoon on the salt and let one of the tea bags sit in the water for about 2 hours. Do Bettas usually react to either one being added in? After about 30 minutes Gracie became very lethargic. She is just laying on the bottom of the tank. Every so often she swims frantically to the top for air and then floats back down. Shes kind of acting like her front half is top heavy.
Is that normal (I actually hope it isn't) or did I do too much at once?


----------



## lilnaugrim

akinsey15 said:


> Thank you so much for your help earlier.
> I went out and got both aquarium salt and rooibos tea for Gracie's water. I have a 2.5 gallon tank so I put in half a teaspoon on the salt and let one of the tea bags sit in the water for about 2 hours. Do Bettas usually react to either one being added in? After about 30 minutes Gracie became very lethargic. She is just laying on the bottom of the tank. Every so often she swims frantically to the top for air and then floats back down. Shes kind of acting like her front half is top heavy.
> Is that normal (I actually hope it isn't) or did I do too much at once?


Did you dissolve the salt before you added it? Perhaps you added it too quickly? Sometimes if you add it too quickly, they can react to the changing water parameters. Keep her in the dark (put a towel/blanket on the tank to keep it dark) for the night and that should help hopefully. If tomorrow she's still not well, change about 25-50% of her water and do not add any more salt or Rooibos to see if she'll perk up. Add the water to her tank slowly over half an hour to an hour so it's not too quick for her.


----------



## akinsey15

Thank you again. I did dissolve it a small cup of her tank water first but maybe I added it too quickly. I wrapped her tank up for the night. Thank you again for all of your help


----------



## SennyStorm

I ran into this post just recently, anyway I hope its no trouble posting here about my new Betta Fish, Wasabi. He's a Twin Tail Halfmoon I recently got from petsmart a couple weeks ago, though when he went into his new 5.5 gal tank, he started tangling himself into the 'grassy' plastic plants I had in there, and noticed he split his fins. I removed all of them, and now that I keep my eye on him more, I notice his fins keep splitting more. I don't know what else it could possibly be though. Maybe the last two remaining plastic plants? I do notice he swims a lot more then my previous betta did.

Heres his tank set up right here:
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=9ff14f4acf64fbae03883a85c4505991&oe=56FA223C

And heres the best picture I could take of his fins (he really doesn't stay still for more then a split second, its very hard to get a picture of this guy aha)
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=aae6fa337474eed3b20c12d2c95a6b6d&oe=56F03C6B

I'm just wondering if what I'm doing so far is helping to prevent fin rot? or does he already have it? Or are these just simple tears he's getting from the plastic plants? I really just dont want him to have fin issues like my previous one had. 

The tank has no heater, mostly because it always stays at about 78-80 degrees already and never gets higher/lower then that. Because of the tear in his fins, I do a 25% water change on Wednesday and another 25% or 50% on Sunday. 

He has no tank mates that are Fish, his only tank mate is a female ADF who keeps to herself and hides most of the time, both of them get along just fine.


----------



## lilnaugrim

That red and green plastic is definitely no good. Plastic plants all around are just not good since they rip Betta fins so easily. The long grass plant isn't plastic though, you can keep that one. It does look like a mix of biting and ripping though, but good news is that he is already healing! So you don't need to do huge water changes, just the 10-25% twice a week will be really good for him. Don't add salt though because your ADF won't tolerate it well.

I also recommend getting larger silk plants, PetCo has some nice selection if you have one around you. I know they're a little more expensive but it will help give him a shadier spot as well which may be why he's partially biting too.


----------



## SennyStorm

Okay thanks! Yeah I do plan to buy some silk plants to get rid of the two remaining plastic plants, I just didn't want to take them out just yet or the tank would be to open and its mostly there for my Frog to be hiding (shes already not happy with me taking out the other plastic plants she liked hiding in)

Thank you for the advice, ill go for 10-25% changes twice a week to help keep the water clean.

I'll check petco out this friday, theres one by me, and I hope they have some silk plants in stock because I know petsmart only has plastic plants where I live. (the long grassy one is where I bought it from and that was their last and only silk plant there, shame) 

Thank you for telling me hes healing, i thought for sure he got fin rot but I didn't want to start dosing him for something he didn't have which is why I posted here.


----------



## TripleP

I hope its okay if I post in here as I am not sure where else to put this as its not exactly a disease or emergency. I wanted to try to see if I could get any advice on what else I may could try to get my betta, Kai, to stop biting. I know some betta fish just bite and once they start they may never stop I just want to make sure I do everything I can to provide him with a stable, stress free enviroment to lessen the chances of him biting. 

Here is a bit of background on him and a run down of what I have tried. He was a rescue from Petsmart who looked to be in really bad shape, but no fin issues, in the store. I suspect he was beginning to suffer from ammonia poisoning. Once I got him home in clean water he improved. He was first in a heated one gallon hospital tank, that I did daily changes on to keep clean, with one large silk plant and one hiding spot. He had no fin issues in the one gallon. After a couple weeks I transferred him to a 5 gallon tank at home. Soon after he started biting so I thought he needed more plant cover so I filled the tank with silk plants, but he kept biting. I began to think maybe there was too much action around him with my cat, dog, and 7 year old so since I was planning on transferring him eventually to my office at work I did that. I also thought maybe the bigger tank stressed him out since he was fine in the 1 gallon so I put him in a 3 gallon tank. In that tank now he has 2 large silk plants, 1 moss ball, 1 terra cotta pot as a hiding spot, 1 floating tunnel made out of craft mesh, and a piece of driftwood that provides some tannins. His water temperature is right at 80-81 degrees and his tank is cycled and is cleaned twice a week. His light is on a timer and is on from 8 am to 6 pm. I will say, I feed him twice a day, 4 Omega One betta pellets each time, and he literally attacks them each time like he is starving. I know I read somewhere that hunger may cause them to bite their fins, is it possible that he is hungry even with the amount I am feeding? Does anyone have any other suggestions I may could try before just being resigned to the fact that he is a biter?


----------



## lilnaugrim

TripleP said:


> I hope its okay if I post in here as I am not sure where else to put this as its not exactly a disease or emergency. I wanted to try to see if I could get any advice on what else I may could try to get my betta, Kai, to stop biting. I know some betta fish just bite and once they start they may never stop I just want to make sure I do everything I can to provide him with a stable, stress free enviroment to lessen the chances of him biting.
> 
> Here is a bit of background on him and a run down of what I have tried. He was a rescue from Petsmart who looked to be in really bad shape, but no fin issues, in the store. I suspect he was beginning to suffer from ammonia poisoning. Once I got him home in clean water he improved. He was first in a heated one gallon hospital tank, that I did daily changes on to keep clean, with one large silk plant and one hiding spot. He had no fin issues in the one gallon. After a couple weeks I transferred him to a 5 gallon tank at home. Soon after he started biting so I thought he needed more plant cover so I filled the tank with silk plants, but he kept biting. I began to think maybe there was too much action around him with my cat, dog, and 7 year old so since I was planning on transferring him eventually to my office at work I did that. I also thought maybe the bigger tank stressed him out since he was fine in the 1 gallon so I put him in a 3 gallon tank. In that tank now he has 2 large silk plants, 1 moss ball, 1 terra cotta pot as a hiding spot, 1 floating tunnel made out of craft mesh, and a piece of driftwood that provides some tannins. His water temperature is right at 80-81 degrees and his tank is cycled and is cleaned twice a week. His light is on a timer and is on from 8 am to 6 pm. I will say, I feed him twice a day, 4 Omega One betta pellets each time, and he literally attacks them each time like he is starving. I know I read somewhere that hunger may cause them to bite their fins, is it possible that he is hungry even with the amount I am feeding? Does anyone have any other suggestions I may could try before just being resigned to the fact that he is a biter?


Sounds like he's just a biter. And nah, you're feeding him plenty, he's definitely not starving!

The only thing to do is to just keep trying new things, different levels of plants or different hides, changing up the food every now and then to frozen to see if he's encouraged to stop, or turn the light off on his tank sooner if he has one. You can try taping up the three sides of the tank with white construction paper, has to be matte paper since regular computer paper is too shiny, but that would cut down on the reflection at least, maybe that's why he's biting. It's all trial and error unfortunately.


----------



## TripleP

lilnaugrim said:


> Sounds like he's just a biter. And nah, you're feeding him plenty, he's definitely not starving!
> 
> The only thing to do is to just keep trying new things, different levels of plants or different hides, changing up the food every now and then to frozen to see if he's encouraged to stop, or turn the light off on his tank sooner if he has one. You can try taping up the three sides of the tank with white construction paper, has to be matte paper since regular computer paper is too shiny, but that would cut down on the reflection at least, maybe that's why he's biting. It's all trial and error unfortunately.


Thanks so much for replying! I am going to look into getting a few lower level plants as well as getting him some floating plants to block out some of the light. I have never experimented with frozen foods, so I will give that a try as well. And I will definitely try taping up the three sides with white construction paper, what a great suggestion, I never thought to do that. I figure I will leave 2 sides open while I am at work, since he seems to love watching me work on the computer, and then cover it up when I leave for the day. Hopefully doing this will at least help some, if nothing else if he will just slow down his biting I would be happy. Thanks so much again for the help!


----------



## SennyStorm

Im sorry to bother again lilnaugrim but I think Wasabi just bit his bottom fin last night, at least I hope its biting and not anything else... here are some pictures. They were not like this yesterday, and it happened over night.



















I do notice sometimes my ADF does sometimes try to go for him [mistaking him swimming by for food maybe?] But I don't think she could do this to his fins? It seems more like he's doing it to himself more or less. I did add new silk plants for more hiding places for him and he does seem to enjoy them, and I do plan to add more in due time. So should I just confirm that Wassy here is just a fin biter?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Yep! Classic biting!

ADF's won't bite the Betta fins and rip them, maybe occasionally lunge at the fish if he gets too close or bothers them, but otherwise, they won't hurt him  And especially not get that small of a bite either.

But yes, he may just be a chronic biter and nothing may truly help, but of course, I hope that doesn't deter you from adding more plants ^_^ I'm glad he's enjoying some of his new plants though!! :-D


----------



## Watt

Hi everyone. I'm new here and I find this thread very interesting. I am fairly new to fishkeeping (just over a year) and I'm afraid my betta may have fin rot. But I would like to hear what you have to say, looking at the picture.










The section in the lower left part has some red in it. "Pescadito" (as my girlfriend named it ;-)) is on his second day in a breeding box, since he was been bullied (and nipped) for two weeks by a couple of very territorial dwarf chain loaches, and was spending his day inside a log, coming out only to eat. I'm cycling a new tank for him at the moment, using filter media from the bigger established tank (more than a year now), hoping to speed it up.

Do you think that is just a result of (intense) nipping, or is it fin rot?

Thank you very much for your help.

Best,
Watt


----------



## lilnaugrim

Hi Watt,

beautiful boy you have there! I can't tell if it's due to himself biting his own fins or the loaches biting him. Either way, he doesn't have fin rot but his fins are indeed irritated. You can do some Aquarium Salt baths for him nightly or twice daily if it looks particularly red one day. I'd normally say to add salt directly to your tank at a preventative measure, but live plants aren't terrible fond of salt at all (it will wither your more sensitive plants even at low levels--specifically, I'm looking at the Anacharis, it's really good at dying lol). If you need instructions on how to bathe him, I can give you those instructions. I recommend 2 teaspoons of AQ salt per gallon, dissolved first of course.


----------



## Watt

lilnaugrim said:


> You can do some Aquarium Salt baths for him nightly or twice daily if it looks particularly red one day. [...] If you need instructions on how to bathe him, I can give you those instructions. I recommend 2 teaspoons of AQ salt per gallon, dissolved first of course.


Hi lilnaugrim,

Thank you for your reply. I would like those instructions. My problem is that at the moment I only have the breeding space, to isolate him in, and it shares water with the main tank. In this conditions I cannot bathe him, right? The new tank is still not ready, unfortunately.

Also, This is the second day he is isolated there, and he does not seem so happy. Do you think it's better to release him in the main tank (where he will spend his days hiding) or to keep him in the breeding space until the new home is ready?

Best,
W


----------



## lilnaugrim

Do you have a plant that you can give him in the breeding box? Like a moss or something? Being so open will stress him out which is why he doesn't seem happy.

Do you have some sort of 1 gallon container that you can use? Doesn't have to be big or be a tank necessarily, just has to be clean is all. 

Why isn't the new tank ready? Are you cycling it Fish-less?


----------



## Watt

lilnaugrim said:


> Do you have a plant that you can give him in the breeding box? Like a moss or something? Being so open will stress him out which is why he doesn't seem happy.
> 
> Do you have some sort of 1 gallon container that you can use? Doesn't have to be big or be a tank necessarily, just has to be clean is all.
> 
> Why isn't the new tank ready? Are you cycling it Fish-less?


Again thank you. You're very helpful.

I bought him a silk plant, so he has that with him. Today he does not respond much, he refused pellets, which I removed. I tried with a blood worm and he ate half. Tonight I'll try a pea.

The new tank is a 2,5 gallon tank and it has only been on for a couple of days with a plant and some moss. I used filter media from the bigger tank and water parameters are fine. But I doubt it is safe for him yet.

I do have a container I usually use for water changes. How should I bathe him, using it?

Best,
W


----------



## Watt

Update: the situation deteriorated all of a sudden this evening. He spent quite a long time on his flank, and when he moved it was with difficulty. Now he is in the silk plant, but he does not look good. I did not notice unusual signs on his body (beside the irritated fins), and I don't know what is wrong. Since he refused food almost completely today, could it be constipation? If so, what can I do to help him? I've never had to deal with this problem before.

Best,
W


----------



## lilnaugrim

Watt said:


> Again thank you. You're very helpful.
> 
> I bought him a silk plant, so he has that with him. Today he does not respond much, he refused pellets, which I removed. I tried with a blood worm and he ate half. Tonight I'll try a pea.
> 
> The new tank is a 2,5 gallon tank and it has only been on for a couple of days with a plant and some moss. I used filter media from the bigger tank and water parameters are fine. But I doubt it is safe for him yet.
> 
> I do have a container I usually use for water changes. How should I bathe him, using it?
> 
> Update: the situation deteriorated all of a sudden this evening. He spent quite a long time on his flank, and when he moved it was with difficulty. Now he is in the silk plant, but he does not look good. I did not notice unusual signs on his body (beside the irritated fins), and I don't know what is wrong. Since he refused food almost completely today, could it be constipation? If so, what can I do to help him? I've never had to deal with this problem before.
> 
> Best,
> W



Actually, if you've used media from your big tank then your tank is instantly cycled which means, your bacteria need something to feed off of! Namely, your betta's poop! You should put him in there immediately so your cycle doesn't die off!

Do not use pea's. Betta's are carnivores, they can't digest straight plant material like that and it is possible to harm the digestive tract. Fish in general cannot vomit like cat's can when they eat grass to make themselves vomit. Instead, use a crustacean like Daphnia or Brine Shrimp--just not too much is all! Stay away from freeze-dried things, they just are too much trouble. Use frozen or live if possible. Crustacean exoskeletons are not digestible, however, carnivores have adapted to use this and to be able to still pass it even though it's not digestible, this acts like a laxative for them as it runs through their system. It's much healthier.

As for being lethargic, I don't know. Did you do a water change today? If so, did you condition the water and match the temperature? Constipation usually doesn't cause a fish to act like that. Could be stress in general. Keep his tank dark tonight, if possible, throw a towel or blanket over the whole thing to keep it pitch black, this helps fish to relax and calm down. Hopefully it's just something minor. Take it off in the morning.

I would not use your container for water changes as a bath container. You can get large tuperware or plastic storage bins to use as a container for baths.


----------



## Watt

Thank you for you help, lilnaugrim, but unfortunately the Betta died during the night. I do not know what he had.
The yellow he has now on the sides of his body, I guess is only due to the fact that has been dead already for hours, since it was not there when alive. It happened all in a couple of days, and I do not know why. Maybe the stress lowered his immune system, and then it just couldn't cope.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Watt said:


> Thank you for you help, lilnaugrim, but unfortunately the Betta died during the night. I do not know what he had.
> The yellow he has now on the sides of his body, I guess is only due to the fact that has been dead already for hours, since it was not there when alive. It happened all in a couple of days, and I do not know why. Maybe the stress lowered his immune system, and then it just couldn't cope.


I'm sorry to hear that happened! Yeah, the yellow is likely due to death and not a specific disease. Keep an eye on your other fish though just in case, hopefully whatever he had wasn't transmittable!


----------



## banana0217

I'm pretty sure this is fin biting but I just wanted to confirm:

First one is from around the time I got him in November 








And this is from today. It has gradually gotten worse over time, so if it is fin biting he didn't do all of it overnight.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Yeah, that's biting. Yes, it does sometimes happen over time as you've seen. My old DT (Jaguar) was the same way until he kept his tail short all the time regardless of what I did to try to help him; he just figured out that he preferred to swim like that and kept it short.


----------



## Olivia27

Me me me! Meet Fiery my problem child. Also HMDT. My guess is tail biting but I'm starting to doubt it based on the level of severity... I mean, he literally looked like he's been dragged at the back of a truck for an entire mile =\


----------



## lilnaugrim

Seren27 said:


> Me me me! Meet Fiery my problem child. Also HMDT. My guess is tail biting but I'm starting to doubt it based on the level of severity... I mean, he literally looked like he's been dragged at the back of a truck for an entire mile =\


What was he in before? Looks like ripped damage from plastic plants, a rough decor, or possibly a big filter.

Bites are U shaped where you see his are more like the membrane just separated apart in a slit, that's usually from plastic plants.


----------



## Olivia27

He's previously in a Petco cup. Just got him less than 24 hours ago. Happy to know it's not a rot though!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Seren27 said:


> He's previously in a Petco cup. Just got him less than 24 hours ago. Happy to know it's not a rot though!


Well, no, I do see some rot on him, just thought you were asking if it was just fin biting--sorry >.< I recommend the MB and AQ salt baths I'd told you about before. It's minor enough that a couple of days and he should be starting to heal up again! It's likely that when the employee did a water change on him that he caught on the edge of the cup or something if they were too rough, that could cause damage. He may be biting some since I do see some chunks of totally missing fins from the pics (might be the angle though?). But if it is, it was likely due to stress in seeing other Betta's. Keep him out of sight of all other Betta's while he heals (put paper between tanks to help remove eye sights)


----------



## Olivia27

lilnaugrim said:


> Well, no, I do see some rot on him, just thought you were asking if it was just fin biting--sorry >.< I recommend the MB and AQ salt baths I'd told you about before. It's minor enough that a couple of days and he should be starting to heal up again! It's likely that when the employee did a water change on him that he caught on the edge of the cup or something if they were too rough, that could cause damage. He may be biting some since I do see some chunks of totally missing fins from the pics (might be the angle though?). But if it is, it was likely due to stress in seeing other Betta's. Keep him out of sight of all other Betta's while he heals (put paper between tanks to help remove eye sights)


Aw  well I guess I'm gonna treat him the same method anyway

OK I just realized that stupid pic uploaded upside down. Lemme pull up some more.

More questions: unfortunately this boy also has SBD. He's on a regular ES bath schedule now. For the fins all I did was float an IAL in the tank. I don't know about putting him in two bath schedules - which means he's gotta go take a bath every day. Is that too stressful? Feel like it is  I have a black paper weight ornament that just happens to be as tall as the tanks are. I put it up already. Good to know though

EDIT: so he has a combo of all three: ripped fin, tail biting and rot? Wow


----------



## lilnaugrim

Seren27 said:


> Aw  well I guess I'm gonna treat him the same method anyway
> 
> OK I just realized that stupid pic uploaded upside down. Lemme pull up some more.
> 
> More questions: unfortunately this boy also has SBD. He's on a regular ES bath schedule now. For the fins all I did was float an IAL in the tank. I don't know about putting him in two bath schedules - which means he's gotta go take a bath every day. Is that too stressful? Feel like it is  I have a black paper weight ornament that just happens to be as tall as the tanks are. I put it up already. Good to know though
> 
> EDIT: so he has a combo of all three: ripped fin, tail biting and rot? Wow


I just commented on your other thread about that so we can continue there to keep everything in place


----------



## firewood04

Can this post be made into a sticky? This is a question that gets asked a lot and I know that it would have been helpful to me when I found out that my Midnight was tail biting! Thanks!


----------



## lilnaugrim

We're working on it. I'm in the process of redoing it but the site had some issues that I'm attempting to work around. Eventually though, yes, it will be a sticky.


----------



## firewood04

Thanks Lilnaugrim! Would you mind looking at my post about Midnight? He started as a tail biter and I think it has progressed to fin rot even with my keeping his water totally clean and doing Stress Coat. I would really appreciate it. I am using Jungle Fungus Clear, keeping him in a dark room and I have fed him dehydrated Blood Worms last night as a treat since he is in the dark for recuperation right now.


----------



## lilnaugrim

Yeah, give me a minute  I'll post over there


----------



## toasterpoodle

Hi everyone.

Someone recommended I post here about my fish Moonpie. They suspected he might have ammonia poisoning plus some fin rot, and that I should have someone here look at it.

I moved him into a smaller container, as he was lying on the bottom of his tank, and I thought it might be easier on him if he was in a more shallow container.


----------



## josephkarthic

*Tail biting or rot?*

Hello,

Could someone please tell me if these are tail biting or tail rotting due to water conditions?

I've seen many bettas in betta shop in thailand/india with bettas placed close to each other in bottles and small tanks like this but never seen any fin damage like this..They are always flaring and no issues..

my fishes also flare always and healthy but they have fin damage like this..i do 50% water change every 3rd day..have hornwort plant..remove the poop as soon as i see it using a eye dropper..

sorry abt picture quality..you can see tails are ripped parellely..and then it doesn't grow for a long time..


----------



## lilnaugrim

toasterpoodle said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Someone recommended I post here about my fish Moonpie. They suspected he might have ammonia poisoning plus some fin rot, and that I should have someone here look at it.
> 
> I moved him into a smaller container, as he was lying on the bottom of his tank, and I thought it might be easier on him if he was in a more shallow container.


Hello, you need to post in your own thread since it's more than just fin rot/fin biting diagnosis which is what this thread is about. Please go to the Emergency/Disease section and remember to fill out that form from the sticky so that we can get all the information from you! Thanks!



josephkarthic said:


> Hello,
> 
> Could someone please tell me if these are tail biting or tail rotting due to water conditions?
> 
> I've seen many bettas in betta shop in thailand/india with bettas placed close to each other in bottles and small tanks like this but never seen any fin damage like this..They are always flaring and no issues..
> 
> my fishes also flare always and healthy but they have fin damage like this..i do 50% water change every 3rd day..have hornwort plant..remove the poop as soon as i see it using a eye dropper..
> 
> sorry abt picture quality..you can see tails are ripped parellely..and then it doesn't grow for a long time..


Hello. Since this is an educational thread, why don't you look at the pictures from my first post and see if anything matches up to your own pictures. Look at the pattern of the damage and then look at my images comparing natural black coloration to fin rot coloration.


----------



## toasterpoodle

Hi everyone,

Heh... I know I just posted a couple days ago about my fish Moonpie (who is now back to 100%), but now I'm concerned about my other baby, Arthur Dent.

Could some of you give me some advice? I think it's fin rot but maybe he's biting? I have a thread here

Thanks in advance. I'm at my wit's end about this :-(

I have a couple pictures as well:


----------



## lilnaugrim

He does have some slight fin rot toasterpoodle.

Nightly Methylene Blue and Aquarium Salt baths will help with that.

To prepare a bath:
Use 1 gallon water from normal tank (or if tank is too small, you can get some new water and acclimate the fish to the new temperature by floating him in the tank) and add to hospital tank. Mix in 9 drops of MB and 1 teaspoon of AQ salt per gallon. If you use a two gallon tank then do 18 drops and 2 tsp. Once it's all dissolved and mixed in, add fishy and let soak for 30 minutes. Net out fish and return to normal tank. I like to do this at night so the lights will be out after and then throw a towel or blanket over tank to make totally dark. The darkness helps to calm fish which can help the healing progress.


----------



## toasterpoodle

Than you lilnaugrim! Do you recommend the baths until he gets better, or should I stop after a certain point?


----------



## lilnaugrim

toasterpoodle said:


> Than you lilnaugrim! Do you recommend the baths until he gets better, or should I stop after a certain point?


You stop when the bloody/black edge has gone and you see clear regrowth which is pictured in the first post. After that, it's up to the fish to heal the rest of the fin.


----------



## Katehodgson

*New betta owner*

Does she look ok?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Why are you posting here katehodgson?

If you have concerns about her, please post in the Emergencies and Disease section. This thread is about the difference between fin rot and fin biting


----------



## Katehodgson

She's got like clear whiteness on the edge of her fins does that mean she's growing New ones that something the person mentoned in the post


----------



## lilnaugrim

It's possible, if her fins were bitten or damaged before. She could also just have that as a coloration too.


----------



## Katehodgson

When I got her about a week ago she looked a little beat up but now she looks beautiful just wanna male sure I'm doing this right I really like her


----------



## AzuryTheKitty

Hey! I am rather new to owning a Betta.. I got this male Butterfly from PetCo like a week and a half ago. I noticed recently that he has clearness on the edges (Mostly on the bottom fin. Forgot the name of it, egh..), I assumed it was just new growth but I'm not quiet sure  Could you help clear things up for me?

Here's a picture of Uoza:










((Hopefully the image will show, I'm fairly new here. I also had to put the flash on cause he wouldnt stop moving.. Its a little sad I had to do that but I needed a picture... >_<))


----------



## lilnaugrim

AzuryTheKitty said:


> Hey! I am rather new to owning a Betta.. I got this male Butterfly from PetCo like a week and a half ago. I noticed recently that he has clearness on the edges (Mostly on the bottom fin. Forgot the name of it, egh..), I assumed it was just new growth but I'm not quiet sure  Could you help clear things up for me?
> 
> Here's a picture of Uoza:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ((Hopefully the image will show, I'm fairly new here. I also had to put the flash on cause he wouldnt stop moving.. Its a little sad I had to do that but I needed a picture... >_<))


Hello there!

He's actually not a butterfly any more, he's just a regular Copper. Likely he used to be a Butterfly which generally is a white band around all of the fins, it doesn't count if it's just one fin (that's his anal by the way ;-)). A lot of Butterflies actually end up marbling out, changing color. White isn't very dominant so the other color tends to take over and they become solid like your boy has; he's gone solid Copper now with just a bit of white. So that isn't regrowth, that's just natural coloring from before.

Also, don't feel bad about the flash! It doesn't hurt them at all, I take professional photos of my fish and use flash all the time! They're a little skittish when you first start but they're fine with it after a while ^_^


----------



## AzuryTheKitty

Oh! I did not know! Huh, Thanks for letting me know about him being a Regular Copper (I assumed it was butterfly because of the sticker on his cup.. lol silly me.)  I knew he was marbling, but on the anal fin he seems to have a clear parts on the end (Idk if you can see it in the pic, if you cant I can try to take another picture of it). Idk whether or not if that's new fin growth. I mean, it looks like it but.. I'm not quiet sure.


----------



## lilnaugrim

AzuryTheKitty said:


> Oh! I did not know! Huh, Thanks for letting me know about him being a Regular Copper (I assumed it was butterfly because of the sticker on his cup.. lol silly me.)  I knew he was marbling, but on the anal fin he seems to have a clear parts on the end (Idk if you can see it in the pic, if you cant I can try to take another picture of it). Idk whether or not if that's new fin growth. I mean, it looks like it but.. I'm not quiet sure.


Lol, it's okay. Fish are often mislabeled. I'm sure he was a Butterfly Copper at one point, that's the clear/white part on his anal fin, or remnants of it. The band doesn't always have to be white, it can be clear (cellophane), black, red even but the most common is white is all. So it's just that that part of his fin hasn't gone to Copper just yet. And yes, I could see it in the picture when I zoomed in


----------



## AzuryTheKitty

Okay! Thanks xP This websight has been so informative for me. I'm actually planning to set up my 4 gallon tank soon so I can move him from that boring fishbowl into a bigger tank.. Maybe I'll separate the tank to have an extra Betta. xP Ever since i got him I've been obsessed with Bettas. Its almost as if they cast some sort of trance on you that just make you want to give them the utmost care and attention!


----------



## zackpower16

This Was Super Helpful, Thanks A Ton!


----------



## StayCee089

Hello, this is my betta Jinx I just wanted to make sure that this is tail biting although im pretty sure thats the case!


----------



## lilnaugrim

yep


----------



## bettamimi

Such a great post. a treat for a newbie like me


----------



## erica1237

I am so happy to discover this thread- my betta is in day 2 of a salt isolation tank treatment, but I'm still not sure if it's rot or fin biting. 

Here are some before pictures:
http://imgur.com/fpyB5Js

And here are some of the tatters in his tail that I've noticed:
http://imgur.com/a/CUsJe
Could someone help me out? I'm worried that I'm somehow doing the wrong thing to help my betta.


----------



## BettaFishyMatt17

Help!! I think my betta is severely suffering from fin rot & I don't know what to do. I also have 1 Cory Catfish in the tank with him.
http://imgur.com/SyDyLPd
HELP


----------



## FishyBets

Does anyone know where to get IAL/tannins for a good price? Online preferably, I only have Petco nearby. One of my boys had a fin nipping case. I definitely gotta get him that bigger tank now, whether it fits on the table or not.


Also, my parents said to put in salt as a preventative for fungus in my tanks, which have recently had an issue with it. Would salt help with that, or do I need a medicine/ pharmaceutical preventative? If so, what should I buy?


----------



## astrummortis

I'm going to post a picture of our new little guy just to see if anyone can help me confirm that this guy has been biting vs. rot on his fins. His dorsal looks shredded on the back edge, and the tail seems to have a small bit taken from the edge. 










Thank you so much!

ETA: also, they're curled over themselves on the top of that dorsal. Not sure if that's anything, either!


----------



## lilnaugrim

@FishyBets you should make your own thread. Your questions aren't exactly pertinent to discerning fin rot from fin biting. However, if you make a new thread I will answer you over there. Just PM me the link. Remember to keep threads on topic and do your best not to piggy-back on someone else's thread. 
@astrummortis that fish needs a ton more plants in that tank. He's obviously pale and uncomfortable. He has a little bit of biting going on likely due to too much open space. Don't just rely on others, this thread is meant to help you learn not just to look at pretty pictures and ask help. He has some irritation, keep water clean and use 1 tsp per 5 gallons on the aquarium salt and he should be fine. Dorsal is not shredded. Dorsal's naturally have reduced webbing/membrane towards the end/back of the fin so that's what you're seeing.


----------



## astrummortis

@astrummortis that fish needs a ton more plants in that tank. He's obviously pale and uncomfortable. He has a little bit of biting going on likely due to too much open space. Don't just rely on others, this thread is meant to help you learn not just to look at pretty pictures and ask help. He has some irritation, keep water clean and use 1 tsp per 5 gallons on the aquarium salt and he should be fine. Dorsal is not shredded. Dorsal's naturally have reduced webbing/membrane towards the end/back of the fin so that's what you're seeing.[/QUOTE]

Hey, thanks for your help! I did learn a lot from this thread,but part of learning is practical application and 
I was trying compare what I'm reading and the examples to what I'm seeing :nerd: . 

We just brought him home 48 hours ago and that damage is all from before purchase. We'll be going on a plant run tomorrow, so no worries there, we'd seen that there wasn't much coverage.  

I'm VERY GLAD to hear nothing's too far gone! He has salt in his tank and we're doing 25% water changes daily so I think we're on the straight and narrow if that's all he needs. Thanks so much!


----------



## lilnaugrim

Great to hear! Looks like you're already doing what's best for him then!


----------



## astrummortis

That's to great to hear, thank you!


----------



## AkiraBlue

Thanks so much for this post! I bought this little halfmoon yesterday because I noticed damage on his fins but wasn't sure if it was serious or not. The edges are slightly ragged and redish and I heard that could be a sign of rot, but red is his natural coloring so I wasn't sure what to do, but this post helped me a lot!


----------



## lilnaugrim

@AkiraBlue that is definitely fin rot, no doubt about it! I recommend treating with KanaPlex as it's one of the easier of the medications both to use and for the fish. It's also Nitrogen Cycle-safe whereas other medications will knock out your cycle! Doesn't matter if you're using a hospital tank though lol.


----------



## AkiraBlue

Thanks for such a quick reply. I'll follow your advice to get some Kanaplex asap! Hopefully, in a few weeks I'll be able to show Azora with beautiful, regrown fins!


----------



## porkister

I've had Dumbo for 2 months. That white rim around his fins is normal? It looks like it has grown some (today is on the left, sorry).
His pectoral fins have a lot of notches from the day I bought him, but in 2 months, not much growth there. is that normal? (old pic with gravel background, new one with plant background)
thanks


----------



## lilnaugrim

@porkister your fish's coloration is called a Salamander. That white band around his fins is normal for that coloration. And yes, their giant pecs are very easy to bite and they usually do so. Their pecs take the longest time to grow so I wouldn't even expect it to fully fill in by the time he ages a year.


----------



## porkister

*pectoral fin*

thanks for the quick reply. do you think his pectoral fin will eventually repair itself? is there anything I can do besides keeping his water clean and feeding him?


----------



## lilnaugrim

The fin will grow on its own. But as I said, don't expect any overnight miracles, it will take a long time for you to see progress on it. Just keep doing what you normally do. There is no magic cure for bitten and ripped fins.


----------



## Suomi The Betta

I noticed yesterday, when I was doing my weekly water change, that my betta's fins looked shredded. I had gone to a local pet store and picked up some API E.M. erythromycin (suggested by an employee) to treat fin rot. But after reading this topic, I'm not sure if it's fin rot or fin biting. I know my tank, which is ten gallons, has had an ammonia problem for awhile, but no mater what I do, the problem is still there. What might my problem be?


----------



## lilnaugrim

@Suomi The Betta yeah definitely fin biting. Looks like he doesn't have enough plants either. Adding some more big silk plants that reach the top and give him more cover will keep him feeling safer. At the moment, you can use a preventative dosage of aquarium salt in his tank if he doesn't have any other tankmates like snails or shrimp. This will also help keep nitrite from hurting him as well as sterilizing his tail so it can grow properly. 1 tsp per 5 gallons is the dosage, so for your tank, 2 teaspoons in total. Salt does not evaporate so if you top off the tank, do not add salt. If you do a water change, say you take out 25% of the water each week then you must also replace the salt you've just taken out as well which would be .5 tsp. Mix it in with the new water and add to his tank. Make sure you always dissolve salt before hand! This level can be kept forever as it is preventative and not medicinal


----------



## Suomi The Betta

Thanks for your help! I moved his decorations around to a way that I used to have them, and I think he's happier about that. I could still use more plants to help him feel more secure, but he seems to be swimming around more (like he used to) with this configuration. I had his stuff all to the left side of the tank, so that probably made him feel exposed.


----------



## afmaxwell95

I think I have a tail biter..... Henry lives in his 10 gallon alone except for a few random snails, and there really isn't anything for him to get his fins stuck on, and I know it isn't fin rot because I've dealt with that before in previous fish. I have a strict cleaning schedule that I stick to and his water is stable and warm. The only thing I can think of is that I notice him seeing himself in the sides of his tank sometimes and he will flare at himself. Could that be whats stressing him enough to bite? Is there anything I can do about it? I attached a picture of Henry's tank along with his fins over time (hard to get a good picture because he never stops moving!) First picture is close to when I first got him, top picture of the collage is this morning.


----------



## Tuigirl

lilnaugrim said:


> It sounds like he snagged it on something, got frustrated with it and bit a chunk out and then went around flaring to show off lol. Holes generally come from fins stretching too much and tearing apart creating small holes, sometimes larger holes depending on the fin and how much it was stretched out.


I was just reading through this threat again. This seems to be exactly what is going on with my boy! He is tearing open his dorsal fin, and it is getting worse. Before the tears appear, I can actually see a thinning out of the tissue.
Question is- what can I do? Besides adding black alder cones and oak leaves to the tank? I also cannot see where he gets snagged on (no plastic plants in there, just two roots and natural plants) and I have not seen him actually biting. 
He also has stopped the intense glass surfing he did when he arrived last week (although he still does it, but less since I got white paper a background). 
He is eating fine and otherwise behaves normal (I assume). 
Argh, this is sooooo frustrating!

This is he right now, now completely torn apart his dorsal:


----------



## Tuigirl

Here is a zoom in on his dorsal fin-
is this healthy tissue? Or already infected?


----------



## lilnaugrim

Tissue looks fine to me. And that's not torn, that's bitten off. U shaped chunks are caused by their mouths.


----------



## Tuigirl

Just to show off how bad this self mutilation can get in quite a short time (2 weeks).
This is my bad boy today. :-(
Still zooming about and eating very well, not looking like a sick fish at all.
I also have never seen him biting himself (but work all day).
I keep adding oak leaves and black cones, and also have the lights off for a couple of hours during the day with my light timer. 
I can but hope it might get better.


----------



## Jvale19

Where can I get Indian almond leaf? I had my half moon for 4 days, then day 5 morning, lots of his tail was gone! I don't want him to get an infection.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

Jvale19 said:


> Where can I get Indian almond leaf? I had my half moon for 4 days, then day 5 morning, lots of his tail was gone! I don't want him to get an infection.


Pet stores, eBay, AquaBid.


----------



## UncleBen

Hi I have a crown tail male betta fish and his 2 front fins where clear when I got him. But there starting to have more red in them, starting near his body(it's worth noting he's a red and white crown tail)and on his back fin it's getting some white in it (again staring from his body going out.) is this him getting more colorful? Or should I be worried?


----------



## Hopefish

He could be, and probably is, just coloring up. Very difficult to tell without pictures, and not always easy with pictures.


----------



## RussellTheShihTzu

UncleBen said:


> Hi I have a crown tail male betta fish and his 2 front fins where clear when I got him. But there starting to have more red in them, starting near his body(it's worth noting he's a red and white crown tail)and on his back fin it's getting some white in it (again staring from his body going out.) is this him getting more colorful? Or should I be worried?


Can't tell anything without a full body shot. A flaring photo works best.


----------



## UncleBen

Here's the best pic I could get.


----------



## ThatFishThough

Yep. Just coloring.


----------



## UncleBen

Thanks. Good to know He's okay.


----------



## JeremyTheBetta

Hello so I am partially colorblind so I usually have difficulty with things like this. My Halfmoon Betta, Jeremy, has developed a ragged tail (particularly on the top part of his tail) and I can't tell if it is tearing from his plants, biting, or fin rot. He does not seem darker but maybe ashy? Is this some sort of bacteria or fungus? Here is a picture of him.


----------



## UncleBen

I'm not a pro so i may not be right but it looks like he has fungus on his body. I would ask someone who has more experience with this kind of thing tho.


----------



## apple

Hello! I've recently gotten a betta fish and I've noticed over the last couple of days that his caudal fin has been going through some worrying changes. I've been reading posts about fin rot and other diseases often so I'd at least know if something's going on with him that I should be concerned about; judging by his tail, it seems to be fin rot or tail biting is my first obstacle. Yesterday it wasn't so bad, but when I got back home today I noticed that his tail got much worse. (Apologies if the photos make it hard to tell, his fins are clear at the edges so they kind of blend in with his surroundings!) The only reason why I'd consider it to be tail biting is because of how quickly the tail deteriorated and because I noticed that one of the plants in his tank seems to have a bite taken out of it. I could always be wrong, though. Either way, I'm looking for some help!


----------



## trumpredmr

Do you recommend Kanaplex for this bad of rot/melt? Before (over a year ago) and now. Thanks for the post!!/Users/trumpredmr/Desktop/ollie3.jpg


----------



## lilnaugrim

trumpredmr said:


> Do you recommend Kanaplex for this bad of rot/melt? Before (over a year ago) and now. Thanks for the post!!/Users/trumpredmr/Desktop/ollie3.jpg


You should make your own post so that others may see as well.
But yes, I recommend a combo of medications: KanaPlex and Furan-2. If you have Methylene Blue or can find it, get that as well and use it as the Dip instructions along with 3 TBS of Aquarium Salt per Gallon of water nightly. Keep his tank dark most of the day if possible and the temperature down. Bacteria love hot temperatures so by going down to about 70 degrees if possible (just shutting off heater if you have one may help), will help slow it down before it reaches the body.


----------



## trumpredmr

Thanks so much! I found the kanaplex and furan-2 and will order those right away, but couldn't on the Methylene. Do I use both the kanaplex, furan and Aquarium salt all together every day? I will def lower the temp in the tank as it is around 80ish degrees right now and keep it dark. 

I actually did post in the diseases forum, but that was before I saw your awesome post about fin rot/melting. I really didn't mean to double post, but there's no option to delete posts lol 

Thank you for the help!!


----------



## trumpredmr

I just ordered the kanaplex and furan 2. Doing everything I can to help my little guy!


----------



## trumpredmr

*Thanks lilnaugrim!! Keep dosing?*

Thank you again for your advice on the Kanaplex and Furan. The medications have definitely helped my little guy with the temp turned way down. I don't think I got the dosing schedule spot on (as both meds had different schedules and I was pretty busy getting married  ), but he is doing much better with noticeable fin growth.

My question: do I keep dosing? Or since he is doing better, stop and see what happens? Thanks again!!


----------



## lilnaugrim

trumpredmr said:


> Thank you again for your advice on the Kanaplex and Furan. The medications have definitely helped my little guy with the temp turned way down. I don't think I got the dosing schedule spot on (as both meds had different schedules and I was pretty busy getting married  ), but he is doing much better with noticeable fin growth.
> 
> My question: do I keep dosing? Or since he is doing better, stop and see what happens? Thanks again!!


Well! Congratulations!


If the rot is gone and he's doing better, yes, finish out that round of medications and then stop. Do a full 100% change or use fresh carbon to remove the medication from the water and then dispose of the carbon after two or three days as it will be spent and no longer viable.


From there, just keep his water clean, feed him a high protein diet along with shrimps if possible (Mysis shrimp, ghost shrimp, bring shrimp, or daphnia all work. Frozen or live, freeze-dried doesn't work as well. The exoskeleton of the crustacean's contain biotin which help their fins grown like it does for our nails and hair) and keep him warm around 82 if possible to keep his metabolism going to help speed up growth. ^_^


----------



## trumpredmr

Thanks! I'm doing regular water changes now anyway trying to get rid of the nasty brown stringy/slimey like algae that won't go away so I think I have all the medication out of there. I have freezedried bloodworms, will that work as well? I'll be sure to turn back up the temperature when I get home today  

Thanks for all the advice. I admit I didn't think he was going to get better, but I think he's on the right track!!


----------



## lilnaugrim

trumpredmr said:


> Thanks! I'm doing regular water changes now anyway trying to get rid of the nasty brown stringy/slimey like algae that won't go away so I think I have all the medication out of there. I have freezedried bloodworms, will that work as well? I'll be sure to turn back up the temperature when I get home today
> 
> Thanks for all the advice. I admit I didn't think he was going to get better, but I think he's on the right track!!


Bloodworms are worms, not crustacean's. They don't have the hard shell. They are high in protein and fats though so you can absolutely still feed them, it just won't directly help the fin like ghost shrimp would do. Though, word of caution on the freeze-dried stuff, they can cause some bloating so try to feed those sparingly. Live or frozen is much easier to digest. If possible, let the freeze-dried stuff soak in some tank water first before feeding to rehydrate them a bit so they don't expand so much in their stomach unexpectedly


----------



## trumpredmr

I actually have some mysis shrimp I use in my saltwater tank, think that would work as well? I don't think it's specified for reef aquariums only, but I could be wrong lol


----------



## lilnaugrim

trumpredmr said:


> I actually have some mysis shrimp I use in my saltwater tank, think that would work as well? I don't think it's specified for reef aquariums only, but I could be wrong lol


frozen ones? If so, yes you can use those.


----------



## HKWWW

My bettas fins are deformed and i dont know what it is or what to do, OP HELP!


----------



## lilnaugrim

HKWWW said:


> My bettas fins are deformed and i dont know what it is or what to do, OP HELP!


As I've told others to do, please make your own thread in the Disease section and fill out this sticky with all the information you can so we can best assess the situation:
http://www.bettafish.com/99-betta-f...-out-form-so-we-can-best-help-your-betta.html


----------



## ookyspookyme

Thanks this is helpful!! Sometimes my boy chomps on his fins if I feed him too late; hes very picky and has a strict eating schedule. Its hard to tell on occasion if its fin rot or fin biting but the pictures in this have really helped. Thank you!!


----------



## Aquabee

Could y'all help me identify if this is fin rot or tail biting? I tried comparing to the other photos on this thread but I don't feel positive either way.


----------



## Nelvick

Not sure but his eye looks inflamed. Also in top of the head looks like skin rash or something like that. 
I will treat him with api furan 2.


----------



## Aquabee

Hmm I’ll try to get some better photos. The scales/skin on top of his head are white because he used to have a full white mask that has been slowly turning blue. Also, I can’t see any swelling behind his eyes, although he is getting diamond eye/dragon eye. 

Thanks for the reply though—I appreciate the input.


----------

