# Sorority Blogging



## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Or journaling.

Hi hello I'll be keeping this for documentary and update reasons.
A lil introduction, I guess?
I've been keeping fish for more than 3 years now. My mom has been keeping fish for 25+ years as well. She and I take care of our goldfish. I started off with goldfish and the fish I got 3 years ago are still alive now. I have a pond and 20g for them.
As for bettas, I kept one for 2 years as a child (not that long, I know) but only 8 months ago did I come back to keeping bettas. I wanted to really take care of one this time, so I warmed up by moving from goldfish to tetras to guppies and now bettas. I test myself to take care of fish that are of higher maintenance before jumping right into something. Now that I have a male betta for 8 months in a 5g that I cured of fin rot and SBD, I feel confident that I can take care of bettas.

My dad found an old 10g in our storage that my sister bought but we forgot all about. In my room I currently have a 20g for goldfish, a 10g for tetras, and a cycling empty 10g reserved for the girls.
I currently have the girls QT in much bigger cups. They look really nice, I hope I don't lose any of them. I'm treating them a bit with stress coat and later ick medication. I couldn't see when I bought them because of low lighting in my LFS, but one of the girls already has pretty bad stress stripes, so I'm giving her special attention.
I am a little concerned about them being mislabeled plakats or round tails because I saw many labels that said "Koi HMPK betta" but it was actually a white crowntail? It's a bit hard to see if they have a white spot in the opaque cups I put them in. _After typing that I did check them and they are are thankfully females_
I'll be QTing them for about 2 weeks or a maybe little less. After that I'm free from school and I can watch them closely wow perfect timing I will release them all and see how things turn out and hope for the best.

I just bought the 5 new girls today. I'm a bit reluctant to name them because I'm expecting some deaths and I don't want to get too attached already.
I've been typing this for a while so now I actually just treated them with ick medicine. I fed them 3 live bloodworms each and they're very active and healthy. By their behavior, I feel like I can already tell who the alpha will be. My male betta isn't even as aggressive as her, wow. She's a real fighter. Man, they're so nice and pretty. I hope none of them die, I really like them. -god what did I just say about not wanting to get attached-

That's all I gotta say for now, I guess? Any tips and stuff to look out for are welcome. TTFN


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Yay! Journal! We need pictures! Sounds like everythings going well so far.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

The biggest tip I've seen put out there is having wall to wall plants stuffed into a sorority tank. Floating plants, long-stemmed plants, etc are all welcome. If you don't have enough live plants grown out, you can use silk. They need that line-of-sight blocking stuff to help them establish their own territories and get away when chasing starts. Also, good water will help out tons. A sorority is a stressful situation, so clean water will help them stay healthy.

Good luck with your girls! I can't wait to see them!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

^^ Thank you for the tips!!
And will post pictures soon! So soon it's in this post, ha.

Day 1 of QT.

These girls are real aggressive. I'm actually really surprised because my male isn't even as confident as them. He's such a sweetheart to the point where he can live with 2 other guppies with no aggression. I never understood it when people say their guppies flare at them as a greeting. I feel like he'd be a better sorority member, ha (No, I will never ever put him with the girls oh god protect his fins. I'm just saying his personality is best for sororities) He's quite shy but compared to these girls, any of the would win in a fight with him. I just hovered a finger over their water and they are confident enough to nip me. It's adorable and they have cute personality but they're aggressive oh boy

I plan to let them out into the tank Friday, May 27. On a weekend so I can spend the days watching them and hoping they don't kill each other.

The tank is a week into cycling. I put a guppy from my male betta's 5g and a white skirt tetra in there for fish cycling. They'll of course be out once the girls are ready to get in. I was stressed about where to put them until dad reminded me that we have an extra 10g in storage so I can put the tetras in there. I cleaned the tank and transferred their water over with some safe start and stress zyme just in case

I currently can't afford all the live plants I need, so my tank is mostly plastic plants. I have quite a lot of anubias sprouts from my goldfish tank, but that won't grow fast enough to hide the girls from each other. I have a java fern in there as well as a (dying) anubias from my goldfish tank. It's currently in a pot and a lot of new stems are growing out to replace the old dying leaves. I put a large pot in there and will add a terra cotta pot on the other side of the tank. I'll hopefully have some top plants by the end of next week since I'll be saving my allowance up for them. I live like, right beside the beach so I'll probably get natural driftwood and clean/cut it myself

I fed the girls one live bloodworm each. They're still very active and I don't see any signs of illness. I changed half of their water and put (treated) tap water and some water from the tank they'll be in. Hope it gets humid in my room because California mornings aren't the warmest. They're just in larger cups for QT and I'm hoping the warm water from the tank helps them.

Did some water tests this morning as well and I'd say my water parameters are fine
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nirtite - 0 ppm
Nitrate 20 ppm
pH - 7.5

Hope it stays this way! I'm having quite a hard time taking good pictures of the girls individually because their cups are pretty opaque. That, and the camera does them no justice on how pretty their colors are. So far, from observing them -
One of them (i think? It's hard to tell but I think I see it) has dragon scales
Two of them are from the same spawn
One of them has a dalmatian dorsal fin
One of them probably has fin rot? Or tail biting oh boy

If you see anything wrong with the girls in the pictures that I haven't noticed yet, please let me know so I can treat them!

-- Life things under here --

My sister was hilariously disgusted by the bloodworms and was a little mad about me having yet another tank (I...probably have multiple tank syndrome).

I've been talking about the girls to my girlfriend and it's nice to know she's happy about them too from 2000 miles away! I didn't want to get attached to any of the girls because I do expect death, so I didn't give them names. Until I ended up spending time with them and my girlfriend and I named them together oh boy I'm gonna be way too sad if any of them gets killed. She named one of them Hydra (they're her kids too!) and I named another Honey Mustard. I'm reluctant to name the rest since I'm really trying not to get attached to them (I already am what's the point...)

Who needs kids when you got fish, 2 dogs, and 4 parakeets?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

The second picture (orangy/yellowish) girl looks like she has fin rot to me. http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=73332 here's a link to common health problems and treatments. Fin rot is in there. I recommend getting her fins healed up before they're released into the tank. Also, if they don't have heaters, you can float their cups in the heated tank to keep them warm.

I do believe some more floating plants will help a lot! Even some sideways or upside silk plants, something to break up the top area where they like to be.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

At my PetSmart, they have a huge bamboo plant. It's fake, soft, and long. If you can, see if your LFS has something like that to help with top cover.

http://www.petsmart.com/fish/artifi...-catid-300067?var_id=36-17311&_t=pfm=category


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

@ Sadist - Oh no, I thought so. I'll treat her best I can. Just added melafix just in case and I'll put some aq. salt in a bit. I'll see if I have to use fungus care and later I'll give a water change. Thank you for the link, too!

@ ThatFishThough - That looks perfect! Thank you for directing me to it! I'll try to get it this Friday or so.


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## brandy3392 (May 15, 2016)

ThatFishThough said:


> At my PetSmart, they have a huge bamboo plant. It's fake, soft, and long. If you can, see if your LFS has something like that to help with top cover.
> 
> http://www.petsmart.com/fish/artifi...-catid-300067?var_id=36-17311&_t=pfm=category


Sorry to hijack the thread. But are the leaves on that plant soft enough to not snag betta fins? I used to have that plant and it was awesome and huge. Would love to get another one.


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Yep. There are other variations that are to rough, but I love this one.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 1 of QT 2.0

Oo same day updates.
A huge thank you to Sadist for helping me identify whether Honey Mustard's (temporary name) tail was suffering from fin rot or tail biting. I'll be treating her specially for the next week and hope she improves. I'll also post daily pictures of her to keep track of tail progress on whether it's deteriorating more or less. I'll also give her twice daily 50% water changes as well. I just treated her with stress coat and some aq salt. Will give the second water change in a couple hours.

As for Hydrus, I saw I actually got her with stress stripes yesterday. Glad to see that it's now gone now that she's at least in bigger space and better water conditions! I tested the water all my girls were in and wow, it was really acidic. I feel a little bad because the water I transferred them to 7.5 water and that's a pretty big pH jump.

I'm thinking of putting Honey Mustard in my spare 2.5g QT tank for special needs, but I'm afraid she may take it as territory already and it will end up with her being more aggressive once she's put in the real tank. I don't even know if that's even a think that'll happen. Don't know if it'll be a good idea?

I fed them one blood worm each again. I'll feed their last third at night. I came home to them making bubbles! Glad to know they're doing fine. I'll keep treating them for ich (just in case) for the next 2 days. After that, I'll treat them for anti-parasitic stuff for 3 days. Then later _maybe_ fungal treatment. 

I went to petsmart for some plants and all I could afford were betta grass. It's something though, right? I'm considering moving ALL my plants from my goldfish tank into the betta tank. It's not like they need it if they have a 50g filter for a 20g tank, right? I think the girls would make better use of it. Also just added a terra cotta pot on the other end of the tank.

I tend to sometimes rearrange things when I do weekly water changes. Would that mess up their set territories?
I think the tetra and guppy are enjoying the betta grass. Cute!


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

That's what you want. Messed up territories. Make them rearrange, give them something to do.

You don't have to treat them for anything unless they show signs of it. :3


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh, alright!
That's kinda why I've been reluctant to do any fungal treatment since I don't see anything. Thanks for the heads up!


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Np. :3 If your ever suspicious, post a pic and we'll help. 


You could move HM to the 2.5, as long as you release her to the 10 at the same time as the others.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 2 of QT

Well, I had 5 worms in one pinch as one for each girl, and a little lady here ended up eating all 5 worms. She'll be fasting tomorrow.

The girls are still making cute little bubble nests, but I keep having to break them for water changes.

As for Honey Mustard, I'm still treating her with stress coat and some aq salt. Still a bit early to tell any difference, but I'm still posting a photo of her every day to keep track of progress. EDIT: Actually, seeing the last photo, the rot on her dorsal fin is already gone!

I found some silk tall plants online that I can get this week. I'll also see if I can go to the beach this Saturday to get some driftwood. Though it'll be hard since Bay to Breakers is going on and there's a bunch of people at the beach.

The girls are still active and doing well! None are really staying at the top nor bottom for long periods of time. I'm also trying to look for clearer (more clear?) cups so they can see and hopefully get used to each other, though I'm doubting it a little since they'll be next to each other for a long time and I don't want to stress them out.

Also took better photos of the girls. God, I'm really attached to them even though I know some of them may die which I'm really scared about. I'm also going to go to the petsmart event where "First 25 kids get a free fish bowl" just so I can keep at least 1 child from killing a fish irresponsibly. God, I honestly hate it when kids have fish, especially in bowls.

That's probably all for today? Not sure, we'll see.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 3 of QT

Found some super cheap temporary tall plants on Amazon that I'll get this Friday.

Is it really common for some girls to die the first time you put them all together in the tank? Not because of the water quality, but because of the fighting. If that's the case, I feel like taking advantage of Petco's aquatics sale this weekend so I can get some more girls already so they're already QT'd and if a girl dies, they're ready to go in and take their place in the hierarchy

I don't really, know, honestly. I just feel like I should be prepared? But at the same time I'd want to put all the girls together at the same time so what would be the point in getting another girl and not adding her until one of them dies? I'd just be messing up territories and putting them in danger. I'm doubting that plan a lot, but I just wanna have a plan beforehand?

If it really is common for them to die, should I get more girls and QT them and put them together? Just so the numbers aren't too low to the point where they can't set up a hierarchy? Sorry, I'm just pretty anxious about this and what will come in the future, especially since I'm very attached to them all.

Also, my dad found it ridiculous to get a breeding box, which I almost argued with him about until he said he would just make me one himself to save the money. Not really mad about that! Although knowing him, I'm not sure it would look like a breeding box, but I'm sure with what I explained it would have the same effects of a breeding box.

Honey Mustard is healing just fine! Her anal fin seems to be healing a bit compared to the last photo. She'll probably have full fins again by next week.

Also have a picture of Hydrus because I could get clearer pictures, ha

As for the show, it's super small and isn't actually a shoe. It's porcelain and, if it's safe, would it be okay to put in the tank? Just a dumb idea, lol. I feel like it would be a good cover, especially with the little hiding spot inside the shoe. As dumb as it looks, I kinda care more about their coverage than how the tank looks. I'll care when they're okay, I have money, and I'm free to rearrange things.

Another thing: How do I float their cups without them tipping over in the tank?


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## brandy3392 (May 15, 2016)

Milkrii said:


> How do I float their cups without them tipping over in the tank?


Tape the cups to the side of the tank. I used packing tape.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I actually did this myself a week ago. I have 8 girls in a 10g tank I was incredibly lucky and had almost no aggression. they chase once in a while but only one girl had a split fin in the end and now they all hang out together even clustering together to sleep with no issues. This might be because all of them were pretty young all but one is for sure less than 4m old and the older one is less than 6m. they still chase a little but nothing truly aggressive. I'm thankful I didn't have to stress! Good luck and a close tabs on them


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

> Found some super cheap temporary tall plants on Amazon that I'll get this Friday.
> 
> Is it really common for some girls to die the first time you put them all together in the tank? Not because of the water quality, but because of the fighting. If that's the case, I feel like taking advantage of Petco's aquatics sale this weekend so I can get some more girls already so they're already QT'd and if a girl dies, they're ready to go in and take their place in the hierarchy
> 
> ...


Like I've said before, it all depends on the aggression of the girls. They won't die unless you don't watch them for aggression. 

Make sure the paint on the shoe doesn't chip. You can put it in; but to be safe, you can get some Sealent and paint over it with the stuff.

I wouldn't get any more girls, yet. You don't know if they will die, and if they don't you have 5 extra bettas on hand, without a tank.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

They really shouldn't die as long as you watch them carefully. If you can tell that one is super battered and injured all the time, than she needs to be in a tank by herself. If one is constantly aggressive and damaging everyone else, than she needs her own tank. The breeder boxes are a good idea for time outs. I recall someone using them for the aggression/damage issues I mentioned. Putting them in the breeder box for time outs lets them still be in the tank and just not able to touch or be touched by the other fish.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

@ Brandy aha I thought of that but I thought there were other better ways. Will do!

@ Mystic wow, that sounds amazing! That's exactly what I'm hoping for, haha

Alright, thanks @ ThatFishThough! I'll put sealant on it, yeah.
+ Good point w the extra bettas. I'll just get them only when one of them dies.

Also thanks @ Sadist! Then I guess it's just some damage that's common. I'll take advantage of the breeding box stuff.

When they're first introduced, is there a time when I should leave the tank alone? I do 25% water changes every 4 days and if I don't do it for a week, they get 50% at the end of the week. Would doing a water change 4 days after introducing them stress them out because it's too soon since they're still acclimating to each other and their environment? Would it just be okay to do a water change whenever I want/need to?


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

7 boys and 8 girls in my Betta collection so far even a stunning marble dragon ^^ they are totally addictive as well as beautiful


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Is your tank cycled? If not, every 4 days is fine. If it is, once a week is all that's needed. :3


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

I'm currently cycling with fish (a tetra and guppy) and it should be fully cycled by the time they're ready to get in the tank. So once they get in, I'm assuming I move on to doing it weekly. Thanks!


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Just be aware that the bioload of a single tetra and a guppy may not match the bioload of a group of bettas. I'm not sure how much ammonia your beneficial bacteria are able to process over a 24 hour period, but personally, I would recommend testing the water religiously for the first couple of weeks to ensure that your tank doesn't go through a 'mini-cycle' as the beneficial bacteria adjust to an increase in bioload. 

A newly established sorority is a stressful environment, and any added stress from deteriorating water quality can lead to major problems. So watch your parameters like a hawk.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Will do! I added half a bottle of safe start and bacteria supplements to help out. I've been testing every 3 or 4 days and doing water changes more than once a week. I hope that helps it? But if that's the case, I'll test every 2 days and see if I need any changes to my parameters. Thanks!


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Little Betta what kind of fish is in your profile picture? It's very pretty


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## tcraw15 (May 19, 2016)

Milkrii, I would try to not worry too much. When you first add the girls to the tank you will want to freak out because of all the fighting, but to a point you just need to let them sort out their pecking order. I have 6 girls in a 10 gallon at the moment, but will eventually be moving them to a 40gb. I started out with 3 and that was a disaster. I then added two more and at first there was a bit of fighting, but not anywhere close to when I just had the 3. 

At this point, they are all really chill with each other and pretty much spend their entire day schooling in the front of the tank. I do have one girl who sometimes turns into a nutcase when she gets overly excited lol.. She'll sometimes start pecking at some of the other girls, so I just cup her for about 5-10 mins (outside the tank) and then put her back and that seems to work for me. I do have an isolation box that I have used sometimes, but at this point I don't really find it necessary. You have enough girls to distribute out the aggression so I think you will be fine.

Really, there's no telling how your girls will react once you put them all together in the tank. You may think one may be the alpha, or one might be calm, but trust me, that can all change. They will surprise you! But give it time and it should work out. It did for me at least!


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

@Milkrii -- LBF breeds Wild Bettas. I'm not sure which subspecies it is, but you can check out her journal!


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

That's why I started with 8 girls I was told a bunch of stuff would go wrong. I didn't have enough plants and a wide age difference, my girls should have shredded each other especially the 3 smallest ones. I only had one split fin and some chasing plus my tiny EE girl Ruby has solidly placed herself in the middle of the group. she's a tough little pink ball of attitude even standing up to the big bully red HM Hera. I knew my marble was a chill fish she started out in my community tank and was super shy. She's big enough to get away with flaring to keep her position Just under Hera. It's really cool to see them calm down and huddle up peacefully


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Just to answer your question MysticSky, the fish in my display picture is my now deceased Betta hendra male, a species of wild betta from the coccina complex.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

It's beautiful little bettafish


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

@ tcraw The unpredictability is what's making me worry since I have no idea what to expect or be ready for. I've seen good stories and I've seen bad, and I'm kinda preparing for the worst so I don't feel as devastated and I have back up plans. I don't know how rough pecking order should be. Not knowing a lot of stuff is what's making me really on edge about this. I hope I don't have that much to worry about? I mean, if people made it work and later they didn't have a problem, I guess it's fine.

@ Mystic That's so cute! I really hope my sorority ends up like yours. They sound amazing!

@ TFT I was thinking it was a wild betta! It looked like so. That's pretty cool!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

@lilnaugrim Since you have so much experience with this sort of thing, can you look over the tank and girls and add any more recommendations? Like _are they all girls?_ Anything besides more plants and clean water?


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 4 of QT

Honey Mustard is doing amazingly! I woke up to see the color on her fins back! She's so pretty! I'm posting multiple pictures because my phone could NOT focus at all.
I'll post a picture from day 1 on here just for quick comparison. Hope this means I'm doing a good job!

I moved their cups to float in the tank so I don't have to spend the school day worrying about their water temp.
I'll probably come back at one point to ask how to take a sorority to a college dorm, ha.

Meanwhile, the one fish I thought had dragon scales ended up a pineapple instead. Still cool!
I think I do see vibrant coloring on the rest of the girls too besides Honey Mustard. She's the brightest colored out of all the girls so it's the easiest to tell if anything changed. As for her fin rot, her tail is getting there! It may take a while for her anal fin. Not sure if it will be fully healed by the date I want to release them, so her healed fins is the actual time when I'll let them go.

Also I see a blackish bump on one of my girl's tail. What is it? Is it bad?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh hello! I like this new "mentions" thing, makes everything easier!

I can definitely say that Honey Mustard is a boy, the rest look to be females but I see side profiles to really say anything else. There is one other that I'm suspecting to be male as well but it's hard to tell just from the top solely sometimes.

When you use Tetra SafeStart, you aren't supposed to do a water change for two weeks so that the bacteria have food to eat, otherwise you're literally just taking out all the food for the bacteria. Ideally the tank should have been cycled previously but that's neither here nor there now. What I would suggest doing is to keep the Guppy and the Tetra in there for now and keep the betta "girls" out in 1 gallon bowls or something and just do changes to them every two days (about 25% is just fine with one 100% at the end of the week). Then once your tank has at least cycled with those two fish (you could get more guppies for now and return them later or rehome them as well) then add three of your girls to the tank to start off with. Let the tank adjust for a week and then add your other girls in (I didn't see how many you had to start off with, I apologize if my numbers are off).

As for the fin rot case, I would recommend starting off with a round of KanaPlex. Just clean water isn't going to take care of an infection, it can prevent an infection but it doesn't cure it. It is a bacterial infection, one which does indeed need antibiotics to cure. Again, clean water is the prevention, but once it is infected, antibiotics are the cure. One round should knock it out but you can do up to three rounds (actually you can do more than just three rounds safely but three is good to stay at) for him. Treat in a separate tank or container. It's easiest if you get a 2.5 container since the KanaPlex dose is for 5 gallons per scoop so you just do half a scoop.

For the tank, yes, always add more plants. You shouldn't be able to see through at all ideally. You can do a mixture of live and fake plants if you want or just all fake or all live, it doesn't really matter to the girls of course. But you need plants at the top since that is where their territories are. Yes, Betta's will swim all over but they are top-dwelling fish which means their territories are up top and they will spend most of their time up there, especially for feeding time. So float plants or get a really tall plant to bend over the surface to help cover that area.

Hope that helped some. I only skimmed the thread so I apologize if I've repeated something that's already been said or didn't get the numbers right!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Thank you so much for your input! It really helps!

Oops @ safe start thing. I have half a bottle left of it, should I use it again and leave it for 2 weeks?
+ Oh no, I'll either have to use my hospital tank to home him or take him back. I'll check for the egg spot again just to make sure, though. 
I do plan to add more plants, definitely! I got some "betta grass" from petsmart and I orders 2 tall plants off Amazon. It's the top I'm really trying to cover.
I don't have Kanaplex right now, but I can try to get it this Friday. I've been treating him with stress coat and aq salt. I hope that helps?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

If you just have the two other fish in there and the girls out in their cups, then yes, use the SafeStart and leave it for two weeks. After that, do a good 50% water change and either test it yourself if you've got a kit or get it tested at a store to find out your numbers. Your Nitrate will be high after that, that's to be expected after cycling so the big water change is mostly to lower that number.

Egg spots are not a reliable way to sex baby/juvie Bettas. More often than not, young males also show a fake egg spot/ovipositer. Sometimes it goes away with age and other times it does not and stayed with them all the time. It doesn't function of course but it does show up on juvies all the time. If you haven't read through this, you should. It can apply to most babies even if they aren't PetCo babies: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=457330 but this is the real issue for using younger/juvie Betta's in a sorority; half of them turn out to be boys!

What is this betta grass stuff?

KanaPlex can only be ordered online 99% of the time as most stores don't carry it. So that's another thing off amazon you can get for him.

StressCoat is NOT a medication. It's the one thing I hate about that water conditioner, it does nothing to heal or promote healing. Aloe Vera is controversial in the fact that it does nothing for the fish (it may irritate slime coat actually) but is really only there to help ease the fish keepers mind. It apparently contains some other junk as well. I recommend not using it except on occasions. It is literally just a water conditioner.

Aquarium Salt is great, if used correctly. Again, this is not an antibiotic, it cannot cure fin rot but it CAN prevent it. Salt is good for sterilizing open wounds but does nothing against a closed wound such as fin rot which is necrotic (dead) tissue on the fin at the site of infection. At 1 tsp per 5 gallons of water, it can be used indefinitely to help improve the function of the kidney's and to help prevent infection. It can be used at higher doses of 1-3 tsp per gallon for things like open wounds (like after fin biting) to help stave off infections.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Wow I never knew any of that. I guess I should do more than just accepting everything I've been reading. I'll order kanaplex online too, then!

+ Reading right now! Man, that really throws me off. I kinda really need that hospital tank just in case so I may have to give him back. I'll take him back either Friday or Saturday. If egg spots really aren't reliable, that really throws me off. I really want to make sure I get a female this time, so is there any way I could send you/someone pictures right away from the pet store to see if they're correctly sexed? Probably social media or something? 

@ stress coat thing oh jeez, everything I've been reading has been pretty wrong so far. I just ran out of bettafix a couple weeks ago. If i went and got more from the store, would that work too? I wanna try to get medication right away instead of waiting for 2 week delivery online. But first, I wanna know if it even works like it should/if it's a good product.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh boy lol, no BettaFix either! Again, it's only an antiseptic, similar to Aquarium Salt but salt is better on the fish than the BettaFix is. Anything ending in -fix isn't that greatest, it's okay for minor use like I was saying with the salt; good for open wounds but beyond that it doesn't do anything. Don't waste your money on it!

I'll PM you on the pics thingy  I can't guarantee a 100% sex but I can give you a good idea about it. Some fish are just plain hard to sex and others are pretty obvious. I've gotten good at discerning but even still, there are some that trip me up too haha.

I recommend just getting the full grown ladies instead, 99% of those actually are females, once in a blue moon it's a male PK but I have yet to see that happen in a while. Baby Betta's are just too unpredictable and they're already had a rough start in life being shipped at such a young age, it's detrimental to their health and they'll end up with more problems than you can fix. It's only worse when they're in a sorority since it is such a high stress environment, it literally promotes disease and illness in spreading as your fish become stressed out. So if you get the older gals, you'll still have a high stress environment but they wouldn't have had the trauma of early shipping at least. They can still come with a host of problems which is why it is IMPERATIVE that you quarantine your fish for at least TWO weeks, no less! This way, you can catch the disease before it spreads. Yes, sororities are stressful for even the keeper sometimes! Especially if you have a lot of girls and need to quarantine them all and such, it's a lot of maintenance and thought since you have to be sure you don't cross contaminate between the girls or at least disinfect your equipment before it's moved over. It may be worth it for you or it may not be, that's up for you to decide or figure out. It could be better to just enjoy three girls split in the tank or one female and a bunch of small tetras or something like that. I don't mean to totally persuade you out of the sorority, I'm just setting out the options and stuff that can happen is all! Not everyone has bad luck with it but more often than not, sororities do fail after just about a year or around that mark.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Aa wow alright! I'll just use amazon prime then.

And alright! I'll pm you Saturday when I get to the fish store. Sexing them this way is new to me and I'm not fully confident in sexing them alone.
I was a little worried my girls were too old meaning more aggression and such but reading that, I feel better about it.

As stressful as it is, I do understand what I'm getting into and I wouldn't do it if I wasn't willing to put in the effort. 

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 5 of QT

I just gave back Honey Mustard yesterday. A lil sad since I was really attached to him already, but I don't have the space to care for him and all I can do is hope he goes to a good home. But I did put an actual female (thank you lil!) on hold till Saturday so I can keep my odd number. I'll see first if any prettier females come in.

I also fed my girls some blood worms, but one of them was violent enough to almost shake the tweezers out of my hand! I'm a little scared to see how she'll act towards my other girls because she has _strength_. I hope she doesn't kill anyone because that even scared me. Had no idea they could be THAT violent. (One of them took a bite out of the tweezers, except they stuck onto it for 5 seconds and didn't let go. It was really cute! It was like she ate out of a baby bottle or something.)

I guess I'll release them 7 days ahead of my designated release date so the other girl I'm gonna get can get her 2 weeks of QT. I guess *Friday, June 3.* The others get an extra week of QT for good measures then, I guess.

So for now all I can do for the incoming girl is - ick treatment just in ase it's in her water and aq. salt.
Otherwise, the girls are doing great so far! I don't see anything wrong so far and they're still active. (at least I don't have to worry about the fin rot anymore.)


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 6 of QT

Got the new girl! She's super pretty and I love her colors! Feeding her, she's very passive. She didn't attack my tweezers with bloodworms like the rest. She's super shy and isn't showing any aggression. I feel like she'll be at the bottom of the hierarchy bc of how nice she is personality wise. I'm a bit tempted to let her out first for 5 min then let everyone out, but I know that'll be bad. I don't know, I just got her. A couple hours isn't enough to tell anything and she might just be lethargic from being in a Petsmart cup for a while. Currently treating for ick just in case and some aq. salt. Later I'll just observe her and see if anything is happening.

If I'm keeping them in QT for another week so the new girl can get her 2 weeks of QT, the safe start should kick in and by then I should have a properly cycled tank for almost 4 weeks. I may just put the guppy and tetra back in their original tank after a couple days. I don't want them affected by a lot of stuff going on in the cycling process. 

Huge thanks to lil for helping me make sure all my girls are actually girls! Puts a lot less worry on me

I'm also making a cover myself for the new 10g. Don't know how I'll make a hole for a light, but I'll get to that when it comes.

Nothing but the usual "Active, happy, and daily water changes".

I'll post pictures of her tomorrow, though. Don't got my phone on me for a while. I just ordered the tall plants and they should come sometime next week! 8.3 inches should be tall enough for a 10 long. I also got 2 more top plants like betta grass. Hope that helps them too! I'll probably get more bottom plants though? I'll see. I don't want them to suffocate in such little places to swim.

TTFN!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

The bacteria still need to be fed ammonia the whole cycle process, or it will stop. If you don't have a direct ammonia source (pure ammonia from cleaning supplies with nothing else added in), you'll need a snail or something in there.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Ah, alright! I guess I'll leave em in or look for an old filter I didn't throw away. Yeah this is actually my first time cycling with fish oop

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 7/8 of QT

Oh my GOOOOD This is the third time I had to type this all out I'm a lil mad.

Nothing I typed would send and I keep forgetting to copy everything before sending.

SO - Does my petsmart sell tame bettas? The new girl is extremely shy and even my male betta, who can live fine with 2 fancy guppies without any nipping problems (It was a really scary thing for me to do in the first place I really won't do this with any other betta. I mean, he actually HIDES from his reflection rather than flare. Well, he does flare, but not when he's caught off guard.) and the fish from my LFS are ready to kill 24/7. I'm... actually thinking of returning one of the bettas for a calmer fish because I feel it would be best for the sorority. Yes I'm attached and it's hard, but I want to put their success as a sorority over how I feel. 

My nephew thought it was a good idea to pour the blood worms into my shoes )))) I absolutely love children and would love to raise one eventually!!11!!1!! )))))))))) I mean, the blood worms were a dollar but my shoes weren't. I'm really mad about it ugh.

Another important thing I need help with: Mom just told me yesterday that we'd be on vacation to Canada in June 10 or so which is...very soon. Too soon. The sorority would be out by then but I don't trust them unsupervised for a week. I have someone to feed them, but I know literally no one who understands basic fish care let alone handle a sorority. Do I keep them in cups again? What do I do?? Jeez, this is bad timing...

Here's a picture of the new girl! She's so pretty I love her v much


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Get Breeder Boxes, the double ones are better IMO. That way, two girls per box and yes, they are a bit small but they'll be much safer that way and you won't have to worry about changing water daily as you would with cups. Use the lids that come with the boxes as well to keep the girls from jumping. Also, I find it easier to keep the boxes flowing well if they're against the side, they almost suction themselves to the side which is helpful ^_^ That's how I'd keep my commission fish before they're to be shipped out. They'll be just fine like that for a week or more! Just be careful that none get under the filter flow (another reason to press them against the side of the tank) because of course, Betta's need air to breathe, if they get pulled under, they could suffocate.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

I think I can get them this Friday or Saturday. I always gotta wait for my allowance ha.

I'll just put it on this post

Day 9 of QT

I, uh, can't find my guppy?
I think that's a good sign that my tank is pretty planted though, right? But where is he...
Anyways, my room still smells like dead worms and I'm still mad about it.
Okay, after this vacation and the school year is over, I can finally let the girls free roam and use summer to watch them and take care of them.
As for the driftwood, my dad and I went to the beach yesterday and the wood was...way too big to bring anywhere, but we did bring a lot of sticks and such. I'm thinking of making it into a little tree and buying java moss so I can make it a nice little tree!
To make it look better, I plan to get black sand too, but tall plants first.
They're coming late, but not too late. They'll be here in time for me to come back from vacation.

Kinda irrelevant but kinda relevant, I've been meaning to take little 30 minutes naps at 5 or 8 but I end up waking up at 4 AM. I haven't been able to get the time to give them a proper water change in 2 days oof. It doesn't seem that bad but they can't exactly get water circulation in still cups. This time I'll change their water before doing a water change.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 10 of QT

WOW okay so last night two of my girls escaped?? I have no idea how?? I'm glad i checked on them before going to bed. None of them are too damaged and I kinda observed them before putting them back in their cups, and Lavender ( New girl, temporary name. They're all temporarily named after a color lmao) was able to actually hide. Lavender and Red were actually able to hide from each other and they didn't see each other again for 15 minutes. My tetra is actually fine. If anything, she was bold enough to nip Red a couple times. It wasn't that bad, it was like a lil poke. I put them back in their cups to avoid stress. Although, ironically, Red looks more damaged than Lav and Red is my most violent girl while Lav is the calmest...
I have no idea what happened though. Lav and Milky (tetra) may have just ganged up on her.
I'm still very surprised Milky is okay, though. I'd think she'd be the most wrecked, but she's the one who ended up perfectly fine while actually participating in the fight

Another thing...
I gave one of my boys to my friend a long while ago because I couldn't provide any more space for him. He kept a betta alive for 7 years with great care so I trusted him to provide said care. Today he passed away.
No one really knows what happened. He was said to be swimming just fine the day before and later somehow on the floor dead. He gave me his body so I can see him off myself. I'm not gonna flush him, I'm actually gonna bury him. He was a little life, but he was a loved one and was practically my son. Literally kinda cried just now? But I'll celebrate his life rather than mourn his death. I'll let that come later on its own.
He's currently in a little jewelry box casket with cute little flower petals around him. Even now he looks pretty.
But for now, SIP Melly. I really do love you.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

On the floor as in the ground or on the floor of tank? Betta's are known jumpers, they jump for various reasons so if he didn't have a secure lid, it's typical to find a fish dried on the floor.

Also, don't flush dead fish, there is a possibility of infecting waterways with potential disease they may carry. Always throw in trash or down a garbage disposal if you can, or burying is fine. I use house pots and flowers to bury dead fishes that mattered more to me.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

He was on his side inside the tank not moving at all apparently. Wouldn't respond to pokes or twitch when out of water, so he was deemed dead.
If you're also referring to how the girls got out, I think there was enough water in their cups to jump out of it successfully and into the tank itself. Afterwards, I of course poured some water out and treated them with some of the regular things to prevent any bacterial infections or diseases.
Yeah. I'm planning to put his body in my one of my succulent pots, actually. At least I can say hi to him or see him whenever I water them or pass by.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh, no, not about the girls, just about the boy. Girls will always jump from open top cups. You can use some seran wrap to seal the cups and just poke a few holes in the top with a toothpick or something. They don't actually need the holes if you've got like an inch gap, since you would ideally be uncovering them daily or every other day to do a small water change to them, that's when they'd get fresh air. Betta's don't need much air to breathe and the humid air created above would actually be beneficial to them


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh, really! I always thought I was suffocating them when I'd put the cover on. Good to know that not only is it okay, its beneficial for them!

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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Many die of old age that way my original boy Mr Betta did, my big sunfish did too fine one day gone the next. It's ok to cry I bawled my eyes out when my orang fantail goldfish passed away after 2 years


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh man, I would cry so hard if any of my goldfish died. I've been raising my own for 3 years now and they're my children,,

Day 11 of QT

Pretty close to the 2 week mark already, wow. Though I'm letting them out at day 19.
Got a mesh breeder for Lavender and she's visibly much happier! It's adorable that she can stretch her fins, finally. (I seem to have quite a bias ha,,,,)
She and Milky are trying to get at each other from the bottom of the mesh. It's so entertaining to see, ha.
Seeing how it's made, I plan to kinda just make my own mesh breeder? It's doesn't look too hard? Safe materials are all I need, though.
Red's fins are healing just fine. Did preventative things with aq salt and such just in case.
Lavender's fins healed pretty quickly. Not fully, but all the major things are already gone as far as I can see

Something aside from bettas:
Anyone know where I can safely give away a goldfish? I have some impulse buys and I think my tank is getting crowded and my pond is almost at its capacity. I don't wanna give them back to a pet store because I have no idea if thye'll even continue to live. I don't know anyone who can give proper care to goldfish.
My only option is the pond in my local mall that has some veiltail goldfish so I can see them and they're being taken care of, but I have no idea how I can dump them in? I really can't give them space anymore and it's a lil stressful that I have to deal with water changes every 2 days to keep the ammonia low.
I'm kind of a minor still so I'm not sure about craigslist and meeting strangers? I mean, I could do it but that's probably sketchy.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I've got one HUGE 8inch goldfish I've had for almost 7 years he even survived the ammonia catastrophe we had before we moved, the city flushed the system with sickening amounts of Chloromine i couldn't do water changes and the water straight out of the tap was at deadly levels people all over the town were losing fish it was a pheasco...

So I'm not sure but I'm finding little bubbles in my sorority on the opposite end of the tank from the filter either I have a tiny male or a bubbly female


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Aah wow that's so nice ! And it's great they survived it!

All my girls still make bubbles anyways, so I'm pretty sure that despite their sex both still make bubble nests

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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Yeah but it has been really small bubbles lol it's cute either way worst scenario I end up with unplanned babies shrug


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Actually, you'd likely end up with a dead fish before you get unplanned babies. Without proper conditioning, males and females will kill each other. Usually the females will gang up on the male.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Uh oh...


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 12 of QT

I gave my girls a fasting day yesterday and they weren't exactly happy with it. I found them this morning on the bottom of their cups (and mesh) with stress stripes and as soon as I fed them they were happy and active all over again with quickly fading stripes. I guess no more fasting days? Every couple of days I'm letting the girls take turns in the mesh breeder so they can have their space.

Red's fins healed really quickly and so did Lavender's! They're both already fine. Never saw fins heal this fast before.

So apparently my plants are not on the way yet. As in not ordered. I gave my sister the money to buy the plants off amazon and she ended up spending my money on something else. Great. Not sure if she'll use amazon prime, though.

I'm gonna try to get breeder boxes tomorrow and plants since they won't come in time for them to be out. I'll probably only have enough money for the plants, though. Whatever, I'll make the breeder boxes. I'll buy (or use current) hangers and pantyhose to make them.

Oh man they're ready to be out next Wednesday. I'm really scared, though. I don't know what to expect out of it and when to intervene. I hope things don't get really bad and Red and Lav getting out early didn't mess things up? I hope none of them die, I really love them all,,

When I separate one from being too damaged, how do I treat them? Like usual with injured bettas? Or leave them to heal themselves? I don't wanna overdose the tank with aq salt. I'll be keeping the mesh breeder there at all times just in case.

I've been taking many tests the past couple of days and the nitrogen cycle has kicked in and at the moment the nitrate is pretty high, ammonia just died, and the nitrite is just dying. I hope Milky is okay being in that water. She'll be going back to her tank pretty soon ! The water will be fine by the time they're going in the tank. Hope they'll do fine!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 13 of QT

Ah it's almost time. I feel like they're ready to come out tomorrow, idk about waiting for extra measures Wednesday bc I've yet to see any sickness and they're all fine? I also think they're tired of being stressed out with daily water changes bc their cups get no water circulation.
As for the mesh breeder, I actually put two together with a divider to save space. But the divider fell and...? Neither...did anything?? I'm not sure if it was because they're acclimating to the water so they're too busy with themselves to mind each other, but they've minded their own business for a solid 30 minutes. I saw flares but neither really charged at each other or even went after one another at all. I put the divider back up, though. I don't wanna come back to see one of them dead out of nowhere just because I see them fine now.
One of the girls escaped from their cup but I didn't put her back right away. I observed her first and she was of course happier with the bigger space and didn't care about the tetra that swam by her face a couple times. Is there any explanation for this or just a girl that wanted to get used to the water before turning to usual instincts? Because it would be a lil nice to keep a tetra in there, but if it will end up bad, eg girls pick on her bc they think she needs to be a part of the hierarchy in some way bc she's a fish there too, then I'll put her back in her tank
I'll be buying tall plants myself today so by tomorrow they'll be ready to get out. I hope things turn out well, oh boy


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

They won't fight for a couple of days because they are too busy exploring the tank, I just had flares And a little chasing but your gonna want to watch them closely for a week or more (btw I'm successfully keeping a Betta and pair of honey gouramis in my community tank) it all depends on personality and age ( younger fish adapt more easily)so be careful!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Yeah, but they were in the mesh breeder and in a small space with no hiding places at all and they didn't really care for each other. Weird??

I went to Petsmart today and I,,,,,saw Honey Mustard. His fin rot was taken to be a "crowntail female betta". It was real sad that no one took him yet. He really deserves a chance. It was so depressing to see him there oh man I felt so bad.
Anyways my sister JUST placed the order and bought me 12 in. Plants to make up for it. I think I'm good for Wednesday! Or Friday? Idk.

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 14 of QT

Welp, the two weeks are up. Not sure if I'm ready...
Put my guppy and tetra back in their respective tanks and gave another water change to get the nitrate down. I think I'm gonna wait till Wednesday when the nitrate is really down to better numbers
Looks pretty planted to me so far? I'll post a photo of the tank once all the plants I ordered arrive.
They're getting quite tired of being in cups.
I also put in another terra cotta pot for hiding. I wanna see if I can get a betta cave?
I'm gonna go and get live bloodworms again.
Also, would it be an okay diet if I fed them nothing but flakes one day then nothing but bloodworms the next? I know bloodworms don't provide everything needed, so I wanna make sure this schedule isn't depriving them of anything because there's too many days of bloodworms only.

Didn't post this so I'm updating on this same post pft.
So I got bloodworms, driftwood, and bamboo plants! The driftwood and bamboo should be good for a lot of cover + the plants I ordered, so the tank is heavily planted.
I'll be cleaning the driftwood (no chemicals of course) and washing the bamboo. I have a bare bottom, so I'm gonna have to go buy pots for them. I got 4 of them and they're more than a foot long so they'll be sticking out of the tank.
I'm gonna try to break the driftwood into a little tree so I can put java moss or small anubias and make it into an aquatic lil tree. I'll see first, tho. I'm not sure I have enough silicone.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Awesome! Bamboo has to stick out, anyway, so that's good that they're bigger. There are many experienced sorority people on the forums, so I'll let them comment on tank pictures to see if there are enough plants. I've seen some supplement with silk plants just to make enough cover. They'll establish territories over the next few weeks, and the plant cover helps them a lot.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Hmm I was looking for small driftwood I could use for hides along the river. I was going to run them in a warm oven or boiling water before adding them to tanks


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Yup !! Ill post a picture when the tank is completely done w plants so people can judge it properly.
I'm kinds thinking of getting substrate because I need the plants to take hold of the ground, but I never had substrate before, only pebbles, so I'm not sure how to clean it during water change?

+ yeah, I'm doing that too! I'm gonna actually buffer it so its absolutely smooth before putting it in the tank so I don't hurt anyone

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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Cut and sanded driftwood is beautiful O.O


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day 15

I am unbelievably pissed right now. My parents took me out for a "Short stay" at their friends house and I didn't want to leave my fish alone because it was water change day and I had to do a lot. Over time I had a bad feeling and grew extremely irritable and really wanted to go home. 8 f-ing hours later i came back to find one of my girls on the ground.
I knew I should've fought more to stay home I could've prevented this and I cried so hard
I'm really really mad that I wasted my time sitting in one spot of a couch when I could've taken care of them and prevented this from happening.
I'm not in the best mood
I'm gonna give her a salt bath to see if she's still alive
If not, I've some things to say to my parents since they told me "Everything is fine and they're just fish, we can buy another"
No no no no they're not just fish and she's not replaceable. Wow it's almost like I value other's lives, understand that was a whole life that depended on me, and she isn't just some retail item.
My sister felt bad so I guess I'm gonna go get another girl tomorrow, but jeez, my other girls are starting to get irritated that they're still in cups. They're getting stress stripes out of nowhere and staying on the bottom. They really need to get in a nice heated aquarium.
I think that's best for them at this point so I'm gonna let them go regardless this Wednesday. I'll keep the other girl in QT and introduce her later. I already feel bad keeping them in an extremely confined space and I don't want to keep them there for a whole month, plus I'm pretty sure they wanna get out.
Anyways, peace.


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## mingking (Mar 7, 2016)

Oh, I'm so sorry about your girl. Hoping you and your parents haven worked it out though. 

I'm learning a lot from your journal! I wanted to do a sorority but decided not to. I'm not experienced enough and the thought of a sorority seems stressful. Best to do it after thoroughly researching it and reading blogs and experiences like yours.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Gave her a salt bath and she's actually alive! Well, barely. I'm not sure if there's anything more I can do, honestly. I'm scared I may wake up and she won't be alive any more.
Parents and I ended up fighting because they found me crying over her and proceeded to be super insensitive, say it's just a fish, and their lives don't matter because they're easily replaceable. Cool. Won't be talking to them for a couple days, I'm quite heated.

+ I'm glad you learned a lot and that I could be some sort of help! And it's great that you know when you think you're ready or not!

Anyways, a bit off topic-ish? Still has to do with fish though:
I'm pretty much 2 school years away from going to college and I'm a bit stumped because I can't find any good aquaculture majors in California. I'm thinking about going to Clemson University over at South Carolina but that's...a far travel to take my fish with me. I was about to trust my parents to take care of my goldfish but after tonight, hell no.
Yeah, art is also a thing I'm into and since I'm not definite on where I wanna go, I'm gonna just apply for both aquaculture and art and whichever accepts me, I'll go. I have a college in mind for art but not really for aquaculture? I don't wanna go to the extreme and try to be a marine biologist, I wanna work on something more chill like taking care of fish in an aquaponics system for farms or something. There's one pretty close to where I live so I don't have to be too far from home.
Man, i just want a future where I can work with what I love, but this is difficult.
I'll be updating on my girl's condition and hope she lives through this and becomes well enough to rejoin the sorority.
Anyways, Bernie2016.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I just graduated with my art BFA if you want to talk about it. My school didn't need portfolios but I can help you if you want to PM me if you've got questions or anything  

The one thing I suggest is do an internship! I believe you can do them in high school like during the summer months so if you can get an internship at that aquaponics farm then that would be amazing experience for you! College's love to see a drive like that and are more willing to accept those who have internships and whatnot ^_^ Definitely take a look around! It's the one thing I regret not doing in my college career!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Gave her a salt bath and she's actually alive! Well, barely. I'm not sure if there's anything more I can do, honestly. I'm scared I may wake up and she won't be alive any more.
Parents and I ended up fighting because they found me crying over her and proceeded to be super insensitive, say it's just a fish, and their lives don't matter because they're easily replaceable. Cool. Won't be talking to them for a couple days, I'm quite heated.

+ I'm glad you learned a lot and that I could be some sort of help! And it's great that you know when you think you're ready or not!

Day 16

Oh thank god, the girl is fine! She's been swimming a bit this morning and is mostly healed rather quickly from SBD! She still has clamped fins, but she isn't lying on the bottom. She's currently in shallow water and swimming more to the top. I found an LFS that sells kanaplex but it's quite a far drive, but it's better than waiting 2 weeks for her to get her treatment. I don't know what kind of bacteria made its way into her open wounds on her tail, so I really gotta heal her.
Should I be letting the girls out tomorrow anyways? I can tell they're not having a good time in their cups so I'm a bit iffy on keeping them in there longer.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

If it was me, I'd get some of those divided breeder boxes (especially if you drive out to get kanaplex and are there anyways). That way, they're sharing the warm water but not able to touch each other while you heal up the injuries. I hope your jumper pulls through for you!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Because of my limited allowance, I'm gonna get 1 divided breeder box a week. I'm gonna need it for the vacation trip anyways
Update on the girl: she's been swimming a little now! I think her SBD is actually fully gone now. She isn't staying on the bottom or floating to the top on her side anymore. She's still taking rest and staying in one place closer to the top, but at least her fins are moving. She still has clamped fins and I'm actually not sure what to treat for that since its more than just stress and could be from bacteria. If it is just stress though, I'm sure it'll go away in due time. She's still well enough to flare at a girl in a nearby cup, ha. I think if I wait till Friday, she would be well enough to join the sorority! She's so strong I'm v proud of her <3

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh, and @ lil (I though I already replied to you already but I guess not oops?) Ah wow that'd be super helpful! Will do sometime soon!
+ I do plan to do internship in one of my school programs! Didn't think it was that heavy when having to do with college applications, so I'll definitely look into it!
I really hope the local aquaponics farm here accepts internships and training. I've been researching it and wow, $1,000 for training?
I guess I'll start small and volunteer at regular farms first. I have no idea where they let teenagers volunteer at fish related places, though.

Another update: She's swimming like normal! She's back to being active and such. Her fins aren't clamping as much and are slowly letting go. I think I actually can let her go the same time as the girls this Friday! They can wait a couple more days for her. Plus I wanna spend my weekend watching them closely.

Went to a different LFS to look for kanaplex, but I ended up coming home with Furan-2 just as a preventative for when they nip each other's tails and I don't have to deal with them getting fin rot. Is Furan-2 any good?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I haven't used it, but I think I've read about it in the disease section. http://www.bettafish.com/99-betta-fish-diseases-emergencies/73332-betta-fish-disease-treatment.html I guess you can check the ingredients for those medicines. I've got to go, daughter home for summer.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Fish lives do matter, plus fish get expensive. Before I moved back to my home area we were closer to Iowa city, the land Lord gave us a bug infested fridge needless to say he put off an exterminator and the guy sprayed around Christmas... all of my fish were in buckets in the covered truck bed with a room heater for 4 hours with temperatures close to 10°f outside. we came camk slowly warmed everyone up and set up the tanks again. within 2 days all of my guppy fry were dead and half of the adults a plants ... I was LIVID. I caught my dad on the phone with the landlord and grabbed it blatantly telling him I should make him pay full retail price for every single fish I lost, the time invested and the hassle of moving everything because of his stupidity. I had added it up and I had lost close to 200+$ in stock at 4$ a fish retail value. And that if he EVER did something so stupid again I'd be coming after him for what ever else I would lose the next time too. Needless to say the man didn't speak to me for months and never pulled a stunt like that again.

Not only was I angry I had been bawling my eye's out my beautiful guppy fry were how I kept my fish obsession going. Selling them not only paid for fish supplies but my mouse food and dog toys I had made an ACTUAL profit from something I love and he took that away from me


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

God that is HORRIBLE. I'm sorry that had to happen to you. You're not really wrong, though.

I've been quite busy since its the end of school and I'm dying, but just take this as day 17/18 together

She is completely healed ! No more fin clamp or anything ! Her tail has died down, but at least she's alive and okay! She will definitely be joining the sorority Friday ! Man, that was a huge scare...
I think I wanna name them now, so...
I've been calling Lavender Princess for so long it kinda stuck so I ended up subcociously saying "Where's my Princess?" So I guess that's her name now.
I'm thinking of naming the one I just healed (Red) something related to space. Aster, probably. I'm kinda feeling the name, but what I'm not feeling is the name for her since she's really feisty. Out of all of them, I put my money on her being the alpha. Even while she was sick she tried to bite everything that came nearby.
I have sisters from the same spawn and I only named one of them Hydra in reference to the nebula, and I wanna name the other one Estelle, but I don't feel a click to it so I'm still debating (NotSomethingTrumpWantsToDoAgainstBernieCough)
My turquoise one is the smallest, so I'm thinking Bonnie or Lottie. I don't know, some endearing sounding name that ends with the long E.
Guess that's all till Friday. Let's see how they turn out!
Pft 1:30 AM updating

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh, thanks! And hope you have fun with your kiddo!

Day 18

Oh, I made time to make a post. Anyways, wow tomorrow is the real day. I'm starting to worry less and become more excited for it! I'm currently water logging my driftwood and taking tannins out (I'm not experienced in using tannins so I don't exactly trust myself with it, especially keeping it with fish.)
Aster does have fin rot. Her tail has some white edges, but that's treatable and not a worry. Should I wait until she'll fully healed? Or can I treat her while she's in the tank with everyone else? Because if I do treat her with antibacterial stuff, would it be beneficial to have that treatment in the water so when they have torn fins, it'll prevent them from getting fin rot too?
If an alpha or a certain girl is way too violent, what do I do with her? Like, the sorority acts fine if that particular fish is taken out but once put back in, everything is a mess all over again. I've seen some cases of it, but no definite solution. Does it mean I have to get her her own tank? Return her?
Also, how do you introduce new girls to a sorority? How are they supposed to act once they're with the sorority and how will the sorority act?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I personally would treat her in a hospital tank. Most medicines will kill the bacteria used in the nitrogen cycle, and then you're back to mass amounts of ammonia in the water instead of 1/week small water change for nitrates.

As far as I've read, to introduce a new girl (or reintroduce an old one), have her in the breeder box for two weeks before release. @lilnaugrim maybe you know if this is right or not. I assume it's a territory thing, when one leaves for a while, the others end up taking some of her territory as their own.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yes, treat sick fish in hospital tank. Almost all medications ruin your cycle which is the worst thing you can do for your sorority.

With problem fish, yes, put into a breeder box for two weeks at the minimum. You can do this with new girls as well yes. This way, they can see but they can't touch. After two weeks, it's usually settled down, but if they're still aggressive you can go two more weeks. After that, likely they aren't suited for sorority life and should not be reintroduced.

Sororities will be feisty and angry for the first 2-3 weeks. There will be body slamming, fin nipping, slapping, chasing, flaring/posturing, everything. Most damage will be minimal, some will take bigger chunks from fins than others. If there is adequate hiding spaces between plants then everything will generally even out in 2-3 weeks time. Put fish in breeder box again if they are being too much of a bully.

Most people think that the alpha is the one who fights everyone but that's just the bully. The alpha is the one who mediates between the girls, she will try to break up fights and usually shows breeding bars/submission bars to show that she is in charge. She will be the only one to show the vertical bars usually after the fighting has stopped and the hierarchy has been established.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Alright! I'll just keep her in there until it's gone.

It's actually white _near_ the edges, but on the actual edge is the color of the tail. Mere fin damage or fin rot? I'll post a picture when I get home so she can be properly diagnosed. I hope it sounds familiar, though?
I don't really know, I've never had a fish jump out before so I don't know if the weird tail thing is kinda just from being on the ground or actual bacterial infection.

And alright! If I do end up with a bully, what do I do with her? If she's unwilling to cooperate, do I have to give her back? And what if I see a fish that constantly flares and scares everyone, but doesn't fight? I feel like with a fish like that, she'd still be stressing them out but at the same time she's not doing anything. Unless she's just asserting her authority. Not sure, let's see if anything like that happens.

How will it be for those on the bottom of the hierarchy? Are they constantly stressed and bullied? How do I know if they're being gnaged up on of if they're on the bottom of the hiararchy?


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Here's her tail. What does it look like? Fin damage or rot?


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

That clear stuff is regrowth. As long as that's there, it's a good sign.The black could be coloration, if it is rot and the fin is healing then it will likely fall off as the fin grows out from there. Do you have pics of that girl from before when she wasn't sick? It's good to look at before and after pictures since our eyes become accustomed to seeing certain things and we don't notice something before it's too late sometimes, whether for good or bad.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh thank god I thought something was wrong with her tail. Good to know she's healing!
These are the best pictures I can find.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I'd still go another round with medications just to be on the safe-side though. Sometimes the infection will take over again and since the fish has already been compromised once, it's best to just hit it again with the meds. She's obviously stressed out so try to keep her in the dark if possible and don't disturb her too much.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day ?????

W O W I've been busy. Busy watching them. Couldn't even stop to make a post because they always happened to do something the second I stop looking at them. So far so nothing, but that's expected. They're able to run away from each other and all I see now are little flares. I can kinda tell who's on the bottom and up, but I still can't tell who the alpha is. It's only been a couple days, whatever.
I do see ripped fins, but seeing it now for myself, it is not much to worry about? Princess' tail is healing pretty fast.
I had to actually stop some fights because I noticed chunks of tail missing, but that's fine.
I could see apparent stress stripes on who I presume to be the bottom girl. She tried fighting to get higher and it screwed everyone up, but she ended up at the bottom again.
They're all actively swimming and they were swimming on the bottom for the first day, but lately they've been staying on the top with the betta grass. I'm actually gonna go buy more since they like it so much.
Some of the girls are already being fine with swimming with each other. It's especially cute when a lot of them are sleeping up on the betta grass and bamboo leaves.
Nothing serious really happened, but then again it's only been a couple days.
I feel like I'm speaking too soon and I will take this back one day, but they're not hard to maintain? One girl is acting up and I just put her in the mesh breeder and she comes out calmer, fins have no infections and heal quickly, and some of them swim together without flares or anything.
BUT feeding time is weird. They all come together so it's no problem for me, but when I gotta feed them bloodworms, they jump over each other and 3 even ended up in the mesh breeder together. Feeding time is the only time they start fighting, but even then they can disperse quietly when I leave.

Aster no longer has the white edges on her tail and neither does she have black edges. I guess she's fine now. If anything, I've been keeping her in the breeder box because she's the most active to the point where she's attacking everyone.

Although all this happened, I'm not exactly stressed over them? Emphasis on "I may be speaking too soon".

I also went to petsmart yesterday just for my dogs and birds to get them food, and naturally I go over and look at the fish first. Sadly, I still saw Honey Mustard in his cup after so many weeks. He's labeled as a crown tail female. Yes, fin rot makes him a crown tail. Anyways, he looked miserable and it almost made me want to drop buying the food and just spend the money getting a new 2.5g for him, but my mom (and I, too) wouldn't be happy having no money to provide for my other responsibilities. It was so sad, really.

Out of betta/fish in general:
One of my parakeets, Butter, sadly died. It's been a good 8 years, love. Dad felt bad so at the same day we ended up getting another parakeet now named Periwinkle, Perry for short. He's super cute and actually very smart! He learned to perch on my finger on the first 3 hours instead of days with my other parakeets. He's,, quite a poop machine though,,,, goldfish with wings.

Also, I got a summer job at a farm! It's just 8$ an hour for 3 hours, but being a kid that kind of money is enough (to get me a new 20g tank) It's just a regular farm, but I'm hoping it'll be great experience once I can apply to get a job at an aquaponics farm.
I'm just in the fields so I don't have to work with customers, which is great because I got lots of anxiety.

My sister was willing to get me all the necessary supplies to get and care for an axolotl for my birthday (tomorrow!) but they're illegal in California. I kiiiinda found a way to get them because at one point my LFS was selling them and they can still contact the seller...
_"What are you in for?"
"Fish smuggling."_
Whatever, people get illegal snails in Australia and I can force space in my room for another tank for an axolotl. Lord knows I need another even though I already have 4. I have no idea how I'll be taking them to college since the one I want to go to is all the way in South Carolina...

That's all I guess?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Reads like you're super busy!


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## mingking (Mar 7, 2016)

Poor Honey Mustard... If I lived near you, I'd go and get him. How weird that they label him a female. Did you tell them? I'm assuming you did and they just want to save money which is irresponsible. 

Wow, please tell me your ways with parakeets!!! We get them at work and they freak out whenever I'm adding water or food to their cage. 

I'm curious to know how you'll travel with your fish too. I've seen some videos about moving fish but I'm always wondering if you just keep a bit of the water from the tank when you're moving it or just completely empty it. 


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

I tried to but my petsmart has pretty rude college students working there. Don't wanna judge because I don't know what's going on, but I still don't think they should be bringing that attitude to work.

It actually took me 2 months (4 at most) for them to get along with me! They require lots of attention daily and at first its very discouraging which is why it took my now 8 year old bird 4 months. After he got along with me, I had more faith in the other birds and the will to spend more time with them. With my new bird I'm actually experimenting by keeping him in my room all day with me to see if it shortens the time span of them getting along with me. 

Yeah I'm really thinking about that, actually. I'm planning to have lots of bags with just their tank water. Kinda really need it since I don't have the time to cycle for 2 weeks all over again and my fish are stressed enough from being in a bag in a plane.
I'm not sure about keeping water in the tank? I feel like it'd be a hassle to package and keep all the water in (especially with the weight of the tank alone)

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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Best way to travel with fish:

bag fish in fish bag with minimal water; just enough to cover them for the most part. Larger fish need a bit more water and obviously a bigger bag. Goldfish should be in a bucket with a battery operated air pump and stone. Small fish are fine in a bag. Try not to use bags like grocery plastic bags or ziplocks; there's no guarantee that they will actually hold up to the water and plus, they can be poisonous for the fish soooo just keep bags from PetSmart or PetCo or wherever you go. Sometimes stores will give you a few bags if you ask for them, they do buy them in bulk.

You can keep some tank water only to make it easier transition for the fish, your cycle will not transfer over with water ONLY. You NEED to keep your filter wet as well as plants and ornaments for the ride. That's where your bacteria reside, not in the water, but in the filter itself. I recommend using a 5 gallon bucket, fill up with some tank water about 1/2 or 3/4, whatever you can carry, and then stick your filter and equipment in that and close up with a lid if you purchased one with it. Ideally a new bucket is good for this, one with a lid. They're pretty cheap at wal-mart or home depot or anywhere like that.

You don't have to keep water in the tank but if it's planted, the best thing to do is drain most of it, keep like 1-3% water on the bottom with the substrate because it WILL be heavy and it WILL slosh around. Sit that on the floor of the vehicle somewhere and tape on some seranwrap or clingwrap; any clear wrap will do. If you've got a hood or glass top, set that on top of the cling wrap before it's taped and it will help create a little seal to help keep water in, in case it does slosh around. Expect your substrate to move during the trip, you may notice some air bubbles when you fill it up again and if you have dirt under the substrate or root tabs; those might be dug up accidentally. Be prepared to set up the tank first and let things settle; replant if necessary and get filter running ASAP. Fish can wait a day or so to be put into the tank to make sure that everything is working properly and testing fine.

For fish traveling, you can purchase those little styrofoam coolers from wal-mart or anywhere, a couple bucks for one. Not only will it keep your fish from overheating but it will keep them from freezing as well. I highly recommend you use something like that, darkness also keeps fish less stressed which is why this is good; it keeps it dark for them. Keep them in this until tank is set up and ready to go.

Again, you do not need to bring all the water from the tanks, use the new source water in your dorm or wherever to fill the tank up the rest of the way. The most important part is to keep that filter wet!! As always, try to temperature match or let the tank heat up through the night before placing fish in to acclimate them.

Oh and one last tip, if you have SeaChem's Prime, use 1 drop in each bag of fish. This helps lock up their ammonia for the trip so they don't poison themselves. Usually it really doesn't harm them to be shipped without it, but if you have it, why not use it ^_^ 

So yeah, any questions on that or does that help enough? ^_^


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Aaa that's super helpful!! I will definitely (actually will) print this and keep this with my other college stuff. Thanks so much, that clarifies a lot!

Day ???? I really don't know anymore oops?

Anyways! Again, nothing serious. They've been acting fine but I do expect some things next week. I haven't seen any nipping at all or any signs of it, they're all regrowing their tails.

Since I got,,,LOTS,, of birthday money, I'm gonna go out this Saturday and go fish shopping! As in 2 new 2.5g and 2 more bettas. I'm hoping to get koi bettas since their coloring is my absolute favorite and maybe a giant betta. My LFS sells lots of them and they look amazing, so I'll see! If anything better comes up, of course I'm gonna get him. My second favorite coloring is the lighter ones that shine iridescent colors (like how Princess shines purple in light) I'm so excited! Here's to my ever growing collection of tanks (and my later regret of needing taking 6+ tanks with me to college)

I have 3 whole thought out lists on aquarium budgets. 2.5 is the cheapest and the one I want the most so I'm going with that.
My other list had to do with yet another 10g just for a pacman frog/hermit crabs/aquascaping. The other list is actually for a 55g and my plan on getting cichlids, but that's intimidating and I'm not up for blowing all my money and more.

Also! If you want a female from the sorority to do their thingy thing with a male you have, how do you reintroduce a female back into the sorority? I'm familiar with all the breeding things like keeping them nearby but not in the same tank, make sure they both wanna do it, etc. (unless there's more than I thought there was then by all means please tell). because I plan to keep her in my hospital tank and put it close by the male betta's tank for at least a couple weeks? I'll see when they ever get ready (and yet another reason to get another 10g if they do successfully breed)


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

My advice on breeding females and reintroducing them to a sorority? Don't. Females who have bred in the past are notoriously more aggressive after breeding as it is their nature. Sometimes you get lucky and can reintroduce them (float them 2 weeks minimum to get them accustomed to the others again and then release if they're all settled. Keep another 2 weeks if she's still aggressively flaring and posturing) but for the most part, best to keep her separate after that.

Conditioning your pair is more than just keeping them near each other.

You should place a card or paper between their tanks and only allow them to see each other for about 5 minutes a day at first for a couple days. This can be extended a minute or so a day, at the end of 2 weeks, some people allow them to be seen for 30 minutes at a time. They should be fed at least twice a day on high protein and fat foods like worms--live is the best but frozen is a good alternative. A good fry Grow pellet is what I used in the past (I use NLS Grow formula, 50% protein) or regular pellet is okay too but definitely feed more worms. The idea is to get them as healthy as possible; groom them so that they won't have health issues while breeding. It keeps the female healthy while she starts to produce her eggs.

The breeding tank should be set up about a week prior to breeding just to make sure it's all set and ready to go with tannins and if you want, a drop or two of Methylene Blue to help reduce possible fungus on eggs. I've always found tannins do a good enough job; driftwood, oak leaves, IAL, or even Rooibos tea will do the job. Add hiding places for the female because she WILL be chased.

The pair will be aggressive and you will end up with fish with nipped fins. Sometimes they will not be compatible and you might end up with a dead fishy or two, this is also normal and sometimes not your fault but be aware that it can happen. And other times they just won't be interested, in those times you can try reconditioning and a different method if you like to see if you can spur them into spawning. Some fish just can't be bred.

Are you prepared for possibly 500+ fry? Do you have heat racks or some way of separating over 200 males when it comes time? Do you have time to do daily water changes for the cups when they are of age? It's nearly a full time job. I don't mean to scare you but I just want to make sure that you are indeed prepared for that time. It's a big responsibility! But it can be really fun too  oh and, a place for the fry to be sold as well! Some LFS's will take on your fry for a couple bucks, but don't expect to make too much money off them.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oops thought I replied already but oh JEEZ I can do all but the babies part (which is the main part but ya know,,) I kinda expected some to die on the own and others that I'd have to cull, but if that still ends up to 500+ then I'll just wait till I have the time after college. I do want to try sometime, though! Thanks for the info!!

I'm on my phone right now and I can't upload, but the mesh breeder sank down and Medusa (final name for "Aster!" And yeah she was in the breeder because her fins are fine) Swam out. ALL the girls came together not to gang up on her, but just to say hello I guess? They didn't nip or flare or anything and dispersed when I came in to put the mesh breeder back up. It's real cute and I'm glad I got a picture of the whole gang together! I hope it means my sorority is doing fine? Also from the picture I noticed the nice blue coloring in between Medusa's fin folds are back and bold. Well I don't think there's a need for her to stay in the mesh breeder if they're all getting along like this. Glad things are optismic so far!

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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

Yeah, it can happen. The largest spawn I've seen someone get was something ridiculous like 1000 babies! Not all survive of course but they had a good like 900 or something, it was impressive! The average spawn will get you about 200 babies but that's still 100-150 males to be separated out and some females since not all will get along in the spawn sorority. 

Yeah, best to wait until just the end of the semester. It's feasible to do during the summer if you aren't doing much else, like a summer job is fine of course. I recommend starting to condition the two weeks before you'd go back home if you want to breed at home. And then once you get home, attempt your breeding pair then (or let them settle a few days after the move and then breed).

You can start building up supplies over this year, like all the cups you'll need and if you want to make a heating rack and whatnot. It's much easier to gather supplies over time than all at once of course! Helps to have money lol! But yeah, that way, everything can be set up and ready for when you do breed next summer! Fry should be separated out around the 2.5-3 month mark-ish, some may have to be separated out earlier if they don't get along and then some males will never have to be separated out which is nice. So, that gives you a general idea at least. This is, if they are growing properly. If you don't do daily water changes with aged water, the fry won't grow at the typical rate and will instead be stunted or grow slower than they are supposed to. So if you find you don't have a good stretch in summer than maybe waiting is for the best. Most college's are out at the end of April/beginning of May and so you have a good stretch from then to the beginning of summer. That's for a college who does two semesters. Sometimes they do Trimesters instead and you get less of a break but you get the degree done sooner essentially.

So yeah, there is definitely a lot to it and I recommend watching youtube video's, read the stuff we have here in the breeding section and learn how to pick a good pair that will balance each other's faults out! :-D There's more than one way to breed Betta's and so you'll have to decide which way would work best for you and your fish. Sometimes your fish will decide for you; one way won't work but another will


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I've always moved my fish in buckets or with my BIG goldfish I use totes because they are too big to fit in 5g buckets -_- my bettas I just drain half of their water and carry them lol all but a couple fish survived several hour long drives and I have so many fish buckets work better than bags for me


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Day ????? You know what? I'm not even gonna do that anymore.

Oh no, problem girl popped up.

Medusa isn't a nice girl. When she was let out she chased and bit every girl she saw. I had to put her back in the mesh breeder when I saw it wouldn't let up. I wouldn't be happy to give her away, especially since I'm so attached and I saved her from being in my shoe for who knows how long. But if after two weeks she wouldn't calm down, well...

I'm starting to see some flares, but nothing more. I could tell they don't even have a set hierarchy, but for sure I can tell who the bottom girl is. When they flare at each other, no one really knows who to be scared of so they both back off. It'll get better though.

Also I might get a koi betta today! Depends on whether petco will have any in stock. Don't know if I'll be able to go to my LFS for one since it's quite far, but I'm determined! But dad was also talking about a bunny,,,both are appealing. Whether I get a fish or a bunny, I'm happy!

Also, there's the pic of all the girls together


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Just get Medusa her own tank  some girls are like that just as aggressive as males

Update on my sorority I lost 2 girls they just would not eat Hera and Jem I even qt'd them and tried live foods I'm thinking Hera was just old Jem I'm not sure I'll be looking into better girls for my project to replace them though 

My blue ct girl Stella is a glutton she's ALWAYS fat. I was worried she was going to get constipation and have cupped her twice, but she's pooing fine and not showing signs of sbd or dropsy so I think she's fine and the fat issue is just the way she is 

As you can see I'm slowly adding plants by cutting the fast growing ones as they shoot off roots


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

I'll try but with 5+ now tanks it's gonna be weird trying to tell my parents that I need another tank ha

+ oh no, I'm sorry about your girls! And Medusa is quite the same as your Stella diet wise ha

Aaaand I came home with a new koi betta!!

He's mostly white, but knowing that he'll marble, I won't take his current appearance as final.

I'll reveal him later tho wink wonk

Oh, and real quick, if I take water from an already cycled tank and put it in a new tank, does that still count as having cycled water?

(Oh boy my goldfish are trying to spawn again cool)


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I wish my goldfish would spawn! Ugh I've only got one girl though

Taking water from a cycled tank will only jump start your cycle


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Alright! Cuz I only have this tank half filled with a used filter in it for only a week now

+ though I'd love for my goldfish to lay eggs and make me a grandma, with the limited space I have I'd rather they have caviar lol (with the exception of keeping like, 2)

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

My koi betta is doing great! It's adorable to see how visibly happy bettas after day 1 of not being in a cup. BUT he seems to be spitting out his flakes/ He's happily accepting the bloodworms, but he isn't too happy about the flakes. Does he just not like them?
He's so gentle too! (Do I just have weird luck with calm boys? The girls should have their personalities, honestly.) When he sees the worms he just slurps it like noodles rather than attack it. He doesn't seem interested in his reflection either.

Speaking of girls, nothing but flaring. They're fine! If anything, all their nipped fins are gone and most have fully healed fins. Not seeing anything serious, but I still can't tell who the alpha is. When I feed them, they still come all together and they get mad at each other when they eat. Maybe there's an alpha but I''m not paying attention that a lower girl is eating first rather than the alpha? I wasn't paying attention on who always attacks if they don't eat first. I don't see any vertical bars, so it's just a speculation I guess.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Seems my male was just a bit lethargic, not calm. Fish from my LFS seem to be rather spunky. All my petsmart boys are super calm. I named him Zado (My favorite high school teacher who sadly left. I told her I'd name my next fish after her) and he flares at me as a greeting! He flares like a girl, I'm not sure if he's just young, but his beard is super small. I'm gonna get him an ADF as a lil tankmate!

My girls are still doing fine! Minimal fighting during feeding time at this point. The bottom girl's stress stripes are going away and they seem to be co existing fine. As for the problem girl, she jumped out and into the tank again and she seems to be picking on only Princess lately. I'm not sure if she just doesn't like her, or if it's Princess actively going up to her and flaring. Otherwise, the worst they did was flare as they passed by each other. Nothing serious. She still chases the rest, but that's only if they've been going in her turf. I'm also gonna get them two cory catfish (and not a pleco, as I mistook my current pleco as a catfish and he's now in my goldfish tank oops?)
It's taking some time to see who the alpha is since I've yet to see any vertical bars. I'm not sure if Medusa is throwing them off or if they just need more time.


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Are you putting the corydoras into the sorority? Just remember to quarantine the corydoras, if you don't already intend to. This is where we see many sororities fall apart. The owner may quarantine the female bettas, but then they add further fish to the tank without them first undergoing proper quarantine, and they end up with something like columnaris infecting the whole group. 

Furthermore, you need a minimum of six corydoras (and I believe this six must be of the same species). They are shoaling fish, and will become stressed if kept in too few a numbers. 

Finally I wanted to add that when keeping bettas in groups, there's often a lot of psychological warfare that goes on. Many hobbyists think that simply because fish aren't making physical contact everything is okay. But a fish can cause a great deal of stress through posturing and body language. 

With my wild bettas, a dominant fish can clear an area of any subordinates, simply with a look. 

I say this because I wanted to recommend keeping an eye on Princess and your 'problem' female. You don't want a female that constantly feels under attack. These sorts of females are the ones that trigger an outbreak of disease because they are stressed, their immune system is shot, and they become much more susceptible.

Also wanted to add that you may not have one particular female that is the dominant fish in the group. I had a few different variations of females over the years, and with some groups it was very obvious that one fish was much higher up the pecking order than the others, but with some groups, there was no clear 'alpha'.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I still can't tell who my alpha is in my sorority so don't worry lol they know but we don't have to


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Six? Wow I only read 3 minimum but I don't wanna overwhelm the bioload. And if 6 have to go together, im guessing 10 gallons is too small to hold them all. Guess I'll hold off on the extra tank makes for the sorority. 

I'll keep watch on them definitely ! I think my problem girl made a set territory in a side of a tank since she stays there the most and Princess' favorite spot is dangerously close by. Otherwise I've noticed that the girls group together sometimes and isolate the problem girl. I don't know what's going on there and if I should interfere in any way. I'll be doing a water change today and rearranging a lot of things, so hopefully that will mess up the set territories?

+ oh thanks for that last part! I was afraid that I'm developing a failed sorority because of the lack of an alpha. I was afraid they were just stressed 24/7. I mean, it's a possibility but at least what you said is also a possibility.

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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

ADF are social and like 3+ together, too. Good luck!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Alright, I'm currently in Seattle and I left all my fish under the care of my sister's boyfriend. I found out he had MULTIPLE reef tanks and had sharks, piranhas, and even a mantis shrimp, so I trust him to take care of fish like mine since they're much more simple to him.
So, if I ever see a really nice girl betta here (I can't risk another tank for a male, my parents will kill me if I have 8 tanks haha) I plan to take her with me on the plane, I read the basic things like 3 oz limit, but I can't see anything where it covers procedures and what I can do so the fish can stay with me on the plane. If its too risky where they'll take the fish from me, I won't do it and instead probably ship her to my house via fed ex or something.
I'm also thinking of doing a non profit betta rescue where I get sickly bettas and give them over to knowledgeable people who are willing to adopt them. They'd only pay shipping but won't be paying for the fish themselves and would be entirely relied on donations. I'll see, though ! My sister and dad are willing to help me with it.

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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Back from Seattle! My girls are doing fine, if anything better! I see no new rips in their fins and instead see more healing rather than more scars. Also, my problem girl is no longer a problem! I no longer see her chasing or flaring or anything. She swims with the rest of the girls like normal. Princess actually jumped out before I went on vacation and I'm glad to see her with her full color back and her fins healed rapidly.

My koi betta's coloring changed since I left! I feel he's more panda than koi since his coloring is way more black and white and very minimal red. But anyways, I came home to him having a bubble nest adorably behind a leaf that's poking out of his water. He also seems very alert, constantly swimming around then stopping around the bottom to look around then coming back up and patrolling.
I'm also thinking of upgrading his tank to a cylindrical 7g. I saw one at Tj Maxx that was complete with a light and it's compatible with my heater and filter. I think it'd be perfect for him! I can add more tall plants his way while giving the extra small plants over to the girls. Also, it would be a better tank size if I plan to get ADFs.

I'll also be holding off tank mates for the girls until a couple months later to make sure they're okay with each other before making them be okay with something else. Probably something that wouldn't bee too much for the tank size and bioload like neon tetras or maybe just snails.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

My girls are still chill as ever lol I love them my black orchid Aurora is eggy so I might run my orchid CTS first 

I spoiled my baby guppies tonight with the excess from my micro worms culture I have SO MANY guppies and micro worms I'm thinking of selling but we will see even the adults chased some and they vanished quickly lol my bettas didn't seem too interested but that's ok my little corys will clean up!


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

So I may have, by impulse, gotten another girl for the sorority. I named her Queenie. She's currently in QT with my live plants in a vase with a heater. Much better than what the other girls had to do for QT ha. I also...impulsively bought neon tetras for Zado, and they're also in QT in a larger cup. I'm floating them in the sorority's tank so they stay heated. His tank is pretty heavily planted, they'll have more than enough hiding spots if Zado decides to chase them.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

How big is Zado's tank?


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

^^ A 5g!


Not sorority, but related:

I'm getting a 120g for my goldfish! While waiting, they're currently in a 20g. Once they move, all my girls will be upgrades from the 10g to the 20g. Zado will go into the 10g, and I'll either put away the 5g or get another betta. I'm planning on dividing the 10g into 3 sections so I can get more male bettas OR let Zado have a 10g with tank mates like AFD and/or shrimp. Or maybe divide the tank and get more bettas and use the 5g for things like a shrimp only tank or something. I'll see!

My sister and I are negotiating getting another 20g tank. Yeah it'll be tricky trying to tell my parents in need an eighth tank (lol) but it's a birthday gift so I'm not sure they'll turn it down. Maybe I'll have to put away the 5g to make room for another 20g/making it a higher chance for my parents to say yes?

As for the sorority moving, I hope a bigger tank will make things better? I'll definitely need to buy taller plants since the 20g isn't a long like my 10g.


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

My suggestion is keep the 5g available in case something goes wrong with the sorority. If someone just doesn't work well in the future, you have that one available. Maybe some shrimp in there to keep the cycle going. 

I'm not really a fan of divided tanks, but that's doable with a 10 gallon. I think a small community tank with tank mates and Zado would be really nice.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Neons need more space than 5g. They also prefer higher numbers.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Yeah, I actually immediately returned them the next day. I did read that they could be in 5+ gallons, but when I float the bag in I saw how they wouldn't exactly like a small space and I continued to read more into them and ultimately gave them back. I'll just stick to the ADF plan, but I'll get them once I upgrade Zado to a 10g. I think I'll stick with Zado and a community tank, it sounds appealing! I don't know about any finned tank mates for him, I'll just stick to shrimp and frogs and maybe snails for him.

So my 120g is coming this Monday and I'm pretty excited! I'm shopping for a LOT of plants for the girls when they upgrade to the 20g and I was thinking of getting them a live plant carpeted bottom. I was thinking Java moss? I wanna slowly take my fake plants out and replace them with real plants as I move on. I'll start from the bottom to the top, so I'll go with carpet plants first. I'll definitely be on Aquabid a lot for that tho ha.

I also can't tell if my sorority is getting better or staying the same? I see that they're still non aggressive, but I can't tell if they're mentally stressed or not. I no longer see drastic aggression or stress stripes, but I just hope they're okay? I mean, even my bottom girl doesn't get stress stripes anymore. I feel like I'm starting to get an idea of who the alpha is, and I think it's Hydra. I see Medusa is still kinda being a problem, but at least she's no longer actively looking for fights and instead only flares when feeling threatened, like someone swimming a bit too close for body slapping (even though it doesn't happen anymore). But at least she isn't as bad as before where I contemplated giving her back, but now she's just one of those hardy girls.

I also kinda see Hydra and Medusa flaring at each other often. Seeing how Hydra is a potential alpha and Medusa being a really aggressive girl, are they still kinda fighting for the top? When I feed them, I sometimes see Hydra eat first before anybody, but then other days Medusa comes first. I guess from the bottom up they've got it sorted out except for the very top.

As for Queenie, I treated her with some ick medication and I'm changing half her water every 2 days. So like, today. She's a bit small, but is Princess' size and she managed to not be on the bottom of the hierarchy so I'm guessing she'll so fine once I introduce her. I'll do the usual way of introducing new girls where I remove them all, let her in for 10 minutes, then let them all back in from nicest to meanest. If there's any better method, do tell!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I thought for introducing new girls, they had to go in a breeder box for 2 weeks first.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Ok. ADF's are cute! I thought about getting some as well but idk about tankmates. I really want Neon Tetras in my 20g but I have a giant in that tank who will eat them as soon as look at them so that's a no go and I'm sorry I'm not giving up my giant for tetras.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Betta starter why not mollies?


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

^^ That sounds p good ! Esp balloon mollies, their roundness is cute!

I got some ghost shrimp for the sorority tank. About 7. I kinda got one with a lotta eggs under her legs, oops. I'm gonna have an infested 10g, good thing they're moving to the 20g. I'll separate some to the 20g and others over to the 10g to be in a community tank w Zado. The shrimp are currently in QT along with Queenie (Not in the same bowl, but just at the same time ha)

Speaking of Zado, I can never tell if his tail is either clamped or resting. Sighs, plakats. I was worried this time it was clamped so I gave him a water change, but now I'm actually worried his tail is clamped bc at time when it would be full, it wasn't. He isn't lethargic or overly hyper, he's swimming like normal? I don't see any other signs nor any reason why his tail would be clamped. Maybe I'm just worried and he just doesn't have anything to flare at.

Anyways! In the sorority I no longer see chasing and very minimal flaring, but I see Princess following other girls around? It looks harmless but it doesn't look friendly either. I've seen this a couple times with the other girls, but this is much more apparent in Princess.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Aaaand Princess is trying to get up higher on the hierarchy, i believe. From what I see, she's behind Hydra and Medusa in the top and she's actively trying to chase Hydra, but Hydra is pretty vigilant and stays in place then flares Princess away. Medusa is continuing to be a mean one, but isn't as bad as before. She's starting to swim by other girls without a problem, but other times she's the only one I see flaring at all for days. She even pecked on of the ghost shrimp. Wow, I know I've been saying this for a while, but I still think about giving her back? She's starting to cooperate, but she doesn't seem like the best girl for a sorority. I'm kinda waiting for the final sign that tells me I should really give her back. I don't know, I don't wanna give up on her. She also keeps jumping in the mesh breeder where I'm keeping the pregnant shrimp. Jeez, she's really out to fight.

Yeah, I'm either waiting for a professional opinion or a final sign on whether I should give her back or not. I don't know if she could possibly be hurting my sorority? Like, I'm pretty sure Hydra should've been the absolute alpha a while ago but Medusa just keeps fighting...everyone.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

Don't take her back yet, if she isn't hurting anyone or causing a bunch of havoc it's pretty normal i got incredibly lucky that my girls didn't fight but they were really young just a few months


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Yeah, true. Guess I'll keep her till then.

I think I found out who my alpha is? I'm thinking it's Hydra because she's showing a lot of signs of it. She and Princess jumped into the mesh breeder with Queenie and Princess was kinda following too close by and even pecked her, but Hydra got in between them and Princess left immediately. (Took em out later of course)
Whenever Princess tries to one up her she doesn't get scared or fight back, she flares her away.
My only problem now is Medusa trying to be alpha since she's second in the hierarchy. I think once Medusa accepts she isn't alpha, I'll see Hydra have her vertical stripes.

My 120g is coming tomorrow! Once the goldfish are settled and the 20g is free, I'll be moving the girls over. 

Also something important I need help with:
Aster has something weird going on in her scales. I'll let the pictures do the talking, but she hasn't been acting weird at all and she swims just fine. I don't know what could've caused it or what it could mean. Please help?


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

I've seen that sort of distorted scaling appear on what breeders call 'x-factor' fish. This often occurs when breeding rose tails. 

It looks ugly, but doesn't seem to cause any physical harm to the fish.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Oh good, okay. I thought it was some sort of parasite.

I've been reading on how to lower a sorority's aggression and I saw tank mates as one of them. I said I'd hold off on tank mates until they're all okay, but would it help if I got them tank mates now? All but Medusa don't bother to notice the shrimp at all, so I was thinking maybe something finned, but I don't know.

Neon tetras seem like something my girls would eat and too easy of a prey. Shrimp barely impacted my sorority at all. They're kinda in their own world. Same goes with snails. I was thinking red minor tetras. They seem very quick and mind their own business. On top of that I don't think feeding time for them would be really competetive. And if they're ever bothered I think once they nip back they'd leave each other alone. That's how my boy got along with his guppies.

As for the new girl Queenie, I've been observing her and I really don't think she's fit for the sorority. I don't wanna give her back either because she's very sweet. I was thinking of maybe giving her her own tank? But I just got a new 120g today for my goldfish and I would be thrown out a window if I said I wanted another tank lol. I'm planning on ordering online secretly. Once it gets to my house no one can do anything about it. I know I already posted this on another thread, but anyone know any place online to get a 2.5+ bowl that's ~$10? I really don't think the sorority would treat her well. She's also much smaller than everyone, probably only 3 months while everyone else is 7+ months by now.

I also got the 120g today! The girls will be moving in the 20g about a week or more once the 120g is cycled and the goldfish are ready to get in. Ordered more plants that fill up the top.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Why not put her where the sorority is now once the sorority is moved? Weren't you putting the sorority in a 20g?


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Ah long time no see

^^ Zado was an impulse buy and he's kinda living in the QT tank. Kinda need it just in case. But I did find a 3g bowl for $10 so I'm good.

Oh boy, I may be moving and I have to move all these tanks out of state..
I don't know when we will, but I'll keep feeding them until we find out the date (if there is any. Super indefinite) then I'll fast them for shipping.
I'm fine with how to move goldfish and bettas, but how should I move a sorority? Same bag? Different bags?
I know I'll have to use heatpacks and I'll refer to an old post where someone here (i forgot oops) walked me through how to ship fish.
Since it's going by plane and liquids are strict in the airport, would I be forced to throw away my liquid fish care products?


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Just ship the liquid fish care stuff. I would ship the sorority in separate bags as whatever ammonia they produce during shipping will increase too much if shipped in same bag not to mention aggression may increase in a small area as well


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm going to be moving an hour away with a batch of fry x.x and 16 adults not to mention my goldfish and community full of guppies I feel your pain no add in 3 dogs and 5 cats, a baby and all our stuff haha


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Ended up giving Medusa back. She was too much and the only reason why everyone is getting nipped tails all over again.
Also gave Queenie back. She was too weak for the sorority and risked death while everyone got mad at e once I picked up a big bowl so I can't exactly make space for her anymore.
BUT now that Medusa is gone, Princess has been acting up. She'll stay in her mesh breeder for 2 weeks and hopefully, she'll come out okay. Otherwise, the best thing right now is I see literally nothing wrong with them. No more being chased, flaring, or anything. It's just day 1 of the problem girl being taken out so I'll see if they're just readjusting or something? Even then, it's nice to see them actually calmer.
I (found) talked to a local breeder in my LFS and since her females sold out, she'll be ordering some females for me coming this Tuesday. I'll boost it back up to an odd number since I'm down to 4 girls in the sorority.

And...
I don't know if I'm just being weird right now, but I'm actually contemplating on whether I should continue with the sorority. I feel kinda bad like I'm forcing them to get along when they don't want to and are constantly stressed. I mean, they're not showing it but I'm just thinking,,? Because I always wodner if they are _really_ okay or if they get scared or angry when they run into each other but they don't bother showing it anymore.
Speaking of the local breeder I found, she's currently raising fry and is willing to give me 5 or more females for a sorority. I feel like it would be much more successful and better if they already grew up together and know each other rather than forcing other fish to be together for my enjoyment. I'm thinking if it really doesn't work out, I want to either start my sorority over or give up on it. I just,,feel bad that I may be putting them under so much stress and I don't want that for them? I know it's weird to think this since right now they're doing so much better than before, but ??? I really don't know????


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## mingking (Mar 7, 2016)

What will you do with the females if you decide to stop or start over? 

Those are mainly my fears with sororities and that's why I'm holding off getting one but getting females that have grown together sound like a great idea. 


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## LittleBettaFish (Oct 2, 2010)

Having followed along with this thread for a while, it seems like you are not really 100% comfortable with a sorority. 

Personally I think the key to a successful sorority is stability. I think the risk that something will wrong only increases each time you start chopping and changing things. 

Betta splendens are a territorial and aggressive fish. Humans may have intensified aggression through selective breeding over the years, but you can't build on what wasn't there to begin with. 

Yes, some hobbyists are fortunate and end up with a group of females that are passive enough to cohabitate without issue. But most hobbyists are not that fortunate, and there will always be some level aggression between their females. A few torn fins here and there doesn't mean your sorority is doomed to failure. 

I suppose you have to decide as to whether this is something you can handle. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees when it comes to sororities, and it seems like there is a very large element of luck involved to ensure their long-term success.


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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

LittleBettaFish said:


> Having followed along with this thread for a while, it seems like you are not really 100% comfortable with a sorority.
> 
> Personally I think the key to a successful sorority is stability. I think the risk that something will wrong only increases each time you start chopping and changing things.
> 
> ...


I agree here. From what I've read things are changing so much in a little amount of time the girls aren't able to establish a stable pecking order. Slow down with removing/adding females and let them establish a pecking order. You're going to get some nips. And for the most part that's ok. It's normal. Constantly changing around inhabitants whenever one nips the other is only going to shake it up more.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

BettaStarter24 said:


> I agree here. From what I've read things are changing so much in a little amount of time the girls aren't able to establish a stable pecking order. Slow down with removing/adding females and let them establish a pecking order. You're going to get some nips. And for the most part that's ok. It's normal. Constantly changing around inhabitants whenever one nips the other is only going to shake it up more.



Betta starter is right, some aggression is completely normal and you can't expect a utopia in a community of naturally aggressive creatures. You shouldn't remove anyone unless they are getting seriously hurt, and don't add any one until the original girls get everything sorted out or they will never stop fighting 


I just added 2 girls and upset my sorority just a little. Again I've been unfathomably lucky to have rather sweet girls. And my first spawn Both fish were very gentle and I didn't have ripped fins the girl just had a single scale pulled off after they finished


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

And I agree too.

I went to my local breeders shop that ended up being more of a pet shop than LFS, though the focus is on fish. She showed me her 5 tanks of girls and they all looked very pretty with no visible problems at all. They're about 2-3 months old.
I've decided I want to continue with having a sorority. Maybe...not this one? So, though very indefinite, I think I'll give the girls away. I talked to my local breeder about this and she said she's willing to give me a $10 discount if I ever decide to get 5 new girl's from her (Originally $25). As for what I'll do with the girls, I'll give them to my local breeder. She's super responsible and I trust she'll tell potential customers they're not the nicest for sororities.
Also, My tank is like, really planted and pretty fit for sororities. I like to have a variety of pretty fish, so schooling fish aren't mmuch my jam and the amount of guppies I want are out of budget for me.
What made me return Medusa and Queenie was the one sign I was waiting for to return Medusa. Just 3 hours after proper quarantine and finally letting her out of the mesh breeder, Queenie was severely beaten by all the girls, but it was mostly Medusa's doing. She actually bit her eye out. Yeah I've become more numb than before to nipping, thinking it will just heal like before and just make sure the water is clean, but taking an eye out is too much. I don't have space for Queenie to have her own tank and Medusa isn't fit for the sorority, even after I had to put her on time out many times. I was honestly really guilty returning Queenie. She's such a sweetheart and since she only has one eye now, I feel more obligated to take care of her, if only I could. I have a 1.5g vase, but that's...not okay. I don't even have a filter or heater or anything. There's a lot missing for her and I really couldn't keep her unless I wanted to let her live in a mesh breeder all her life which I imagine is pretty suffocating and sad.
Any suggestions on what I should really do? Should I start my sorority over? Have more faith in my girls and wait them out?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I like the advise of letting them establish their pecking order and only removing them when they get seriously injured like Queenie did. You have four really nice ones now, and one in a breeding box/net. After quarantine (two+ weeks in a different tank to watch for disease), from what I understand, they stay in the net for two more weeks before release into the sorority tank. There will be some flares and nips and such while they rearrange their pecking order for the new girl. 

Good luck with whatever you decide! It seems like these four base girls might do okay, and you have the variety of coloring you may not get with sisters.


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## mingking (Mar 7, 2016)

I'm glad you found a nice alternative for your girls if you were to give them up. 

Maybe you could try one last time with the new girl. And try not to change too much in the tank while she's adjusting. Maybe by then, you'll feel differently. 


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

I'll wait them out, then! I was a bit etchy about giving the away anyways since I really really love them.

I'll keep the new girl in the mesh breeder for another 2 weeks, then. I hope she one day makes her way into having a place in the sorority. If not, I'll order a tank online. I don't want to let her go,,
If I need to, that is.
I'm gonna go fish shopping today, mostly for my goldfish tank, but I'll also be looking at the bettas as always.
Since I'm going with my dad, I'm hoping I could somehow convince him to let me get another 2.5 for a betta. He's pretty lenient with me, especially since I'm not asking him to buy it for me.
I'll see if there are any ones that really catch my eye. A couple days ago I got a betta that I got out of spite. I didn't feel any real connection and ended up returning him the next day because I didn't feel like he was the right one. I hoped I would get over the feeling and learn to love him, but in the end I really couldn't. So this time, I'll be really picky.
I'll either go for platinum white, pure black, or koi. Koi bettas always steal my heart,,
But if any other comes up that swim towards me or follow me, I'll take him home. Again, I'll see.

Otherwise, Hydra has still been showing signs of being alpha. Aster and Venus were chasing each other, but Hydra came in and stopped them. But Princess has also been getting to her. Instead of standing her ground, she actually swam away this time.

So I forgot to post this and I did end up getting another 2.5, buuuut as a bowl. I'll cycle it for 2 weeks before adding a male.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

My 2 newest girls settled in quickly I now have 8 girls in my sorority again. Even after breeding the black lady I'm dubbing Artemis I've had no issues even in a 10g tank! they all hang out together around the tank and rarely chase I don't know how I keep getting lucky


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

In a span of 7 days, I got 3 more male bettas and 1 more goldfish. Wow. Anyways, things don't look too well for the sorority, actually. I haven't been touching anything with their decorations, but now it isn't only Princess chasing everyone around, one of my bottom girls Venus isn't being the best girl ever. Aster and Hydra are doing just fine together, but Princess and Venus aren't getting along with anyone. Do I just keep waiting it out? Is it still too soon since the removal of Medusa to define anything definitely? Is there anything I could do? The new girl isn't being introduced any time soon until they sort themselves out. She's currently in her own tank. I put Princess in a mesh breeder for two weeks and she ended up the same but with more bites on her fins. She's still chasing everyone around. It seems like the even number is making two get along but the other two fighting everyone. Should I add the new girl in and hopefully let the odd number break the teaming? She's been in QT for quite a while, though I still need to put her in the breeder box for another two weeks so the girls can see her.

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## BettaStarter24 (Mar 24, 2014)

I would start introducing her through breeder box. If you wait until they sort out a pecking order and then introduce new girl it will mess with that pecking order. The odd number will break the teaming.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

How many girls do you have? If it's just 4 I can understand the teaming up. It's suggested to have no less than 5 girls, my sorority has had no less than 6, I now have 8 ( yes still in the 10g)


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Yeah, not dead. Just nothing new to post. Until now, actually.
The new girl was introduced again and everything was normal with the pecking order and such.
Until I had to put her in a QT tank because she ended up getting a tumor out of nowhere?? No idea if the girls did that to her or if it's even possible. I know tumors are more genetic than diseases, but I gave the tank a 90% change anyways after that.
She died overnight and it really sucked.
Anyways, the teaming is back on but a little worse than before. I've noticed that the fins are being bitten off again rather than before where all I saw was chasing instead of damaged fins.
I'll try to get another girl again. It actually really helped stop the teaming and gave some of the more aggressive girls a calmer nature. At least I know having the odd number helps.
That's all for now I guess?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Sorry about the tumor! I hope you're able to get a new girl in there, and that it helps break up the fights again.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

It's really late at night right now, but I just put one of the girls in quarantine. She has severe dropsy, scales sticking out and bloated and everything. Since it's late, I can't do much right now but use API tetracycline and epsom salt, but tomorrow I'll immediately do a 100% water change.
I have no idea how this could've happened... I haven't put anything foreign in the tank for months like a new plant or anything, I have no clue how they could get dropsy at all. Everything has been fine, water parameter wise?? There's no ammonia at all, It's hardly overstocked, nitrites/nitrates/pH is fine, I'm really concerned?? I've also never treated dropsy before, so any tips besides what i've done/plan to do is most appreciated.
I'm currently looking into methelyne blue and ordering it on amazon prime. I hope they all survive.


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm sorry you have a sick girl


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

Dropsy is actually a symptom of organ failure. If you can catch it early (ie before the scales start sticking out), there's a better chance to fix it. Off the top of my head, I would say it's an illness (bacterial infection?) brought on by the stress or compromised immune system (genetics). Sororities can be stressful to them, and having good water parameters and food does a lot to keep them from getting sick. But just like our air world, there are germs in the water all the time that mostly get fought off by their immune system.

Here's what the disease forum's sticky has to say about dropsy:



> Dropsy
> •Symptoms: Your betta will have a bloated belly and raised scales. They will look like a pine cone. This is usually a fatal disease caused by an internal bacterial infection resulting in internal organ failure but many have had success bringing fish back when treated quickly.
> Early Symptoms: Swollen eyes (important), Gray belly (important), Clamped fins, Lethargy. If your fish has swollen eyes and a gray belly, I suggest that you treat it for Dropsy.
> •Treatment: If you spot the early signs of Dropsy then treat him/her with ES at 1-2tsp/gal and Jungle’s Anti-Parasite pellets while performing 100% daily water changes. It helps to increase the temperature to 84*F. If he/she has begun Pineconning then do the full course as described below:
> Performing daily 100% water changes. Increase the temperature to 84*F. Add 1-2 tsp/gal Epsom Salt. Use API General Cure OR API Erythromycin OR Maracyn II and/or Maracyn for best results. Feed something containing Metronidazole, for example, Jungle’s Anti-Parasite pellets. If caught early, Dropsy is curable.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Mm​ ​one​ ​of​ ​the​ ​girls​ ​Hydra​ ​died​ ​overnight​ ​after​ ​that​ ​post,​ ​actually.​ ​It​ ​wasn't​ ​a​ ​good​ ​day. 
I​ ​buried​ ​her​ ​in​ ​one​ ​of​ ​my​ ​succulent​ ​pots 
Currently​ ​have​ ​been​ ​treating​ ​them​ ​with​ ​methelyne​ ​blue​ ​and​ ​so​ ​far​ ​none​ ​of​ ​them​ ​have​ ​been 
getting​ ​any​ ​worse​ ​and​ ​show​ ​little​ ​to​ ​no​ ​symptoms.​ ​I​ ​see​ ​a​ ​little​ ​bloating,​ ​but​ ​it's​ ​not​ ​getting​ ​any 
bigger​ ​and​ ​from​ ​what​ ​I​ ​see​ ​it's​ ​kinda​ ​receding. 
Since​ ​there's​ ​now​ ​only​ ​3​ ​of​ ​them​ ​in​ ​the​ ​tank,​ ​I​ ​did​ ​a​ ​100%​ ​water​ ​change​ ​every​ ​3​ ​days​ ​for​ ​only​ ​a 
week​ ​and​ ​just​ ​recently​ ​introduced​ ​the​ ​new​ ​girl.​ ​She's​ ​in​ ​a​ ​clear​ ​breeder​ ​box​ ​right​ ​now​ ​so​ ​they 
can​ ​see​ ​her​ ​but​ ​not​ ​touch​ ​her.​ ​They​ ​aren't​ ​exactly​ ​flaring​ ​at​ ​her​ ​or​ ​attempting​ ​to​ ​even​ ​body​ ​slap, 
but​ ​she's​ ​been​ ​flaring​ ​like​ ​crazy.​ ​The​ ​other​ ​girls​ ​aren't​ ​phased​ ​by​ ​it​ ​though.​ ​I'm​ ​sure​ ​something's 
going​ ​on,​ ​but​ ​I​ ​can't​ ​exactly​ ​get​ ​in​ ​a​ ​fish's​ ​mind. 
I​ ​see​ ​extremely​ ​less​ ​aggression​ ​in​ ​the​ ​tank,​ ​actually.​ ​Princess​ ​used​ ​to​ ​kinda​ ​be​ ​a​ ​problem 
because​ ​she​ ​claimed​ ​territory​ ​in​ ​the​ ​area​ ​where​ ​I​ ​usually​ ​drop​ ​food​ ​and​ ​she'd​ ​try​ ​to​ ​fight​ ​off​ ​the 
rest​ ​who​ ​came​ ​by​ ​for​ ​food,​ ​but​ ​even​ ​though​ ​she​ ​still​ ​has​ ​that​ ​as​ ​her​ ​territory​ ​now​ ​she's​ ​been 
much​ ​more​ ​sparing​ ​and​ ​doesn't​ ​mind​ ​the​ ​other​ ​girls​ ​coming​ ​by.​ ​She​ ​used​ ​to​ ​actively​ ​flare​ ​and 
chase​ ​them​ ​away. 
I​ ​find​ ​that​ ​kinda​ ​strange​ ​since​ ​there's​ ​technically​ ​only​ ​3​ ​girls​ ​in​ ​the​ ​tank​ ​but​ ​they​ ​aren't​ ​very​ ​mad 
nor​ ​are​ ​any​ ​of​ ​them​ ​pairing​ ​and​ ​teaming​ ​on​ ​a​ ​single​ ​girl.​ ​I'm​ ​not​ ​complaining,​ ​though.​ ​I'd​ ​rather 
have​ ​this​ ​than​ ​teaming. 
Because​ ​of​ ​only​ ​having​ ​4​ ​girls​ ​now,​ ​I​ ​got​ ​another​ ​girl​ ​who​ ​is​ ​currently​ ​in​ ​qt.​ ​She's...really 
pretty...I'm​ ​thinking​ ​of​ ​getting​ ​her​ ​her​ ​own​ ​tank,​ ​actually.​ ​I​ ​don't​ ​know​ ​if​ ​I​ ​want​ ​her​ ​to​ ​join​ ​the 
sorority​ ​because​ ​she​ ​really​ ​is​ ​just...so​ ​pretty.​ ​She's​ ​kinda​ ​pure​ ​white​ ​but​ ​she​ ​shines​ ​a​ ​faint​ ​gold. 
I'll​ ​probably​ ​wait​ ​till​ ​summer​ ​time​ ​to​ ​do​ ​this​ ​as​ ​well​ ​as​ ​put​ ​this​ ​in​ ​another​ ​thread​ ​since​ ​this​ ​is​ ​more 
for​ ​sorority​ ​journaling​ ​(Or​ ​I'll​ ​just​ ​blog​ ​about​ ​all​ ​my​ ​bettas​ ​anyways),​ ​but​ ​she's​ ​looks​ ​really​ ​similar 
to​ ​one​ ​of​ ​my​ ​male​ ​bettas​ ​and,,mm,,do​ ​you​ ​see​ ​where​ ​I'm​ ​going​ ​with​ ​this 
Not​ ​only​ ​do​ ​I​ ​wanna​ ​wait​ ​till​ ​summer​ ​time​ ​just​ ​so​ ​I​ ​can​ ​have​ ​free​ ​time​ ​to​ ​care​ ​for​ ​all​ ​the​ ​bettas​ ​as 
long​ ​as​ ​I​ ​need​ ​to,​ ​but​ ​1)​ ​it's​ ​hotter​ ​weather​ ​so​ ​I​ ​can​ ​just​ ​let​ ​the​ ​heat​ ​of​ ​the​ ​room​ ​be​ ​the​ ​heater​ ​for 
all​ ​the​ ​individual​ ​males​ ​in​ ​cups.​ ​2)​ ​I​ ​have​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​time​ ​to​ ​study​ ​and​ ​research​ ​caring​ ​for​ ​fry​ ​properly 
I'll​ ​maybe​ ​keep​ ​like,​ ​4/5​ ​males​ ​and​ ​put​ ​them​ ​in​ ​a​ ​divided​ ​10g​ ​and​ ​sell​ ​all​ ​the​ ​others​ ​to​ ​an​ ​LFS​ ​or 
online.​ ​Or​ ​maybe​ ​a​ ​female​ ​or​ ​two​ ​to​ ​add​ ​to​ ​the​ ​sorority?​

ALSO My school is,,,doing something requiring fish and I need help fighting (debating) with the teacher about how it's inhumane. Okay first, they're using both betta fish and mosquito fish (not together) for some aquacultural thing and something about plants taking in fish waste and it being self cycling. Okay sure. BUT those fish are in soda liter bottles. Those bottles aren't even filled up half way and some kids accidentally dropped a lot of dirt in water where fish was. It's really not okay, especially for that poor betta in only 4-5 inches of diameter in space. You'll see in the pictures. The betta was pretty far in the back and I couldn't take a picture of it without moving the bottles. I have no idea what they plan to do with the fish afterwards. Since it's an environmental class, I highly doubt they'd release them to the wild and disturb an ecosystem. But still,, I don't want them taken home with people if they're going to die in a bowl. I don't want them in these poor conditions at all. They really shouldn't have done a project like this??? Fish are lives and are NOT disposable things for school projects???????
My teacher at least did enough research to put water conditioner, but there's..no air for them to get..? Because although in the pic there's empty space, above is completely covered by dirt and plants. +.,, don't nitrogen cycles not work in anything less than 2 gallons?? God I swear I'm gonna sneak in that class and take all their fish. I have an empty 10g right now and I'm 100% willing to take them under my care if only to avoid them living and dying in horrible conditions. They did literally nothing to deserve that.
Anyways, any tips or valid points I should bring up to make sure this project is disassembled and never done again?? I really don't want something like this to further encourage people that fish are disposable and their lives don't matter, especially since I'm already trying so hard giving school-wide speeches about proper fish care. (Speaking of that, I got a lot of my friends into fish and they're currently saving lots of bettas in their mutiple 2.5 g/divided 10g and I'm proud of them)


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## MysticSky22301 (Apr 16, 2016)

when I was in highschool lMy class did something simaler with feeder fish and feeder shrimp. Atleast my teacher was smart enough to use creatures who were destined to die anyway. My shrimp was eaten by a dragon fly nymph x.x 

It also enlightened me to the wild plants in a local pond I stole a bunch I could reach lol rinsed them in tap water and kept them in a bucket for a month. The3 that survived were in my guppy tank for a long time


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I have seen a journal where someone made a natural cycle in a 1 gallon container. The water parameters got really high if I recall correctly, but she didn't have any animals in there. Some nematodes and other little live food critters did develop around the same time the water cycled (0 ammonia and nitrites, positive nitrates that were mostly eaten by live plants). 

I'm sure the teacher wants to show the cycle as it is in nature, hence the living animals as well as plants.

Some things I'd be concerned about: 

1) water parameters. Betta are hardy, but even the hardiest types of fish can get sick if there aren't any water changes or the plant isn't sucking up enough ammonia

2) they are feeding the fish, right? There's still the misconception that you can throw a betta into a vase with plants, and they'll survive off the microcritters on the roots (or even worse, the roots themselves). 

3) adequate lighting for the plants. I see a good plant for sucking ammonia/nitrate, but they can only do that if they get enough light.

4) a hiding spot for the fish would be nice, too. Maybe a leaf or something? 

5) they can probably do the whole cycle thing without the fish to be honest. The journal I read, they used organic dirt, which has fertilizer (which means old poo that's turned into dirt since it's organic). There was plenty of ammonia in the dirt to start the cycle, and she managed to get the full nitrogen cycle without a filter, just with the dirt and plants. The hiding place leaf for the fish could be another ammonia source as it breaks down, too.


http://www.bettafish.com/144-journals/660306-my-1g-npt.html Here's a link to the journal I read. It hasn't been updated since April, but you could probably PM the person with questions. I'm not sure if she still uses the forum, but it's worth a try and a read.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Whoops guess who has no self control and originally planned to buy a 10 gallon for breeding, but also ended up coming home with a divider for two male bettas.
Their names are Milky Way and Dewdrop. I'll upload pics of them later. One of them looks like a potential koi halfmoon and <333
The $1 per gallon thing is going on in my petsmart anyways so it shouldn't be hard to get another tank and hopefully save it for breeding this time.
I talked to my dad about it and he said he's willing to help me with breeding the fish (keeping my room super warm so the water is warm, helping me with shipping because he wants to sell some in aquabid, etc.)


Concerning the fish in the science experiment, I talked to the teacher about what they're doing concerning water parameters and such.
She let the water age 3 days with drops of water conditioner (which only takes care of chlorine) before putting fish in
She added nitrogen-fixing bacteria to help boost the nitrogen cycle (I guess she's doing fish-in cycling? Is it possible in water so little?)
Only things in the water parameters watched is the pH, dissolved oxygen, and nitrates
(Things ignored in the project is nitrites and chloramines which is actually in our tap water back here so there should be ammonia too, which is also ignored)
She has multiple mosquito fish together in a little space, but from what I read they reproduce like guppies and she didn't sex them before putting them together.
She said the fish were omnivorous and should survive on the microorganism in the plants (yikes??)
After the project, she plans to keep them in a proper tank and maybe let more responsible students takes some home.
I'm hoping being by the window is enough light for the plants? And a classroom light...? They don't exactly have individual or remotely fluorescent lights for the project specifically.

I'd say her choice of mosquito fish is fine since they can withstand temperatures from 60-80 and it usually gets cold around 64 F here? My biggest concern is the betta in very little water and the multiple mosquito fish together that aren't sexed that may turn out being 100+ in a little bottle overnight or something.
There was also a huge weird worm with one of them?? I don't think that should be there?? I don't think the teacher even intended for it to be there.
There's pictures of how the bottles are set up and the betta in there


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

The water does seem to be sparse. Since the teacher is set on using live animals in the experiment, the only thing I can think of is to also monitor ammonia and nitrite, since that's part of the cycle (especially in the beginning). Surely, doing more sciencey measurements and such wouldn't be detrimental to the experiment.


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## lilnaugrim (Mar 27, 2013)

I assume the water is poured in and it goes through the soil to "clean" and then into the fish tank? Is that right or no? Hard to tell from photos. But if it goes through the soil, be sure she knows what brand of soil and what is in it. Some soils have fertilizers that can harm the fish. You'd have to look at the ingredients on the bag to know what's in it. That's my biggest concern other than it simply isn't enough room for all those fish. It's inhumane unfortunately. Betta still need space to swim, even though they can live in a mud puddle in Thailand, it doesn't mean that they should or that they want to. Mosquito fish are great (males are tiny and females look like big regular guppies to help you sex them) but they still have space requirements as well, I agree with you. Two fish can turn into many or even just one female if she was hit before hand. And then of course, the Betta may also eat the Mosquito fish too so there is that.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

I talked to the teacher even more and she ended up ending the project sooner than planned, which I'm glad about. She did say that some fish didn't survive, but she's willing to actually give me some aquarium plants (anacharis) from the project which is pretty cool! I hope that betta in there is okay and went to a good home...

I meant to update about the sorority way earlier but I had problems logging in.
They're doing fine, no one is flaring at each other and no one is chasing each other either. I think it's mostly because they barely run into each other anymore. There's no sign of dropsy on any of them and they're all healthy. Kanaplex really saved me hoo.

A couple days ago, Mimikyu actually died. I have no idea what the cause of death was. He was swimming around just fine and happy the day before. The next day he wasn't swimming to the top for food and I found him dead on his side. It wasn't a nice time.

Dratini's fin biting stopped, but I'm putting kanaplex anyways just in case he gets some sort of infection from open wounds. Seeing his body shape, I noticed that no matter how much I feed him, his body is always super thin. Is it the way he's bred? Because he's actually a very deformed boy. He doesn't have a good body shape and he swims very,,,crooked? When he swims towards me his head is always bent to the right like his body is permanently bent. Does he just lose weight rapidly?

Also since I do plan on breeding in the future, I'm buying a new HMPK koi betta online. While researching, I saw that pet store bettas shouldn't be bred so I'm only buying good bettas from breeders. I'm either getting a pair or getting two separate male and female.

My new boys Dewdrop and Milky Way are doing great! Dewdrop is marbling into a halfmoon koi very fast and it's adorable!


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## ThatFishThough (Jan 15, 2016)

Haven't seen you around. Happy that the Sorority's going well! Love the new boys's names!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

> Dratini's fin biting stopped, but I'm putting kanaplex anyways just in case he gets some sort of infection from open wounds. Seeing his body shape, I noticed that no matter how much I feed him, his body is always super thin. Is it the way he's bred? Because he's actually a very deformed boy. He doesn't have a good body shape and he swims very,,,crooked? When he swims towards me his head is always bent to the right like his body is permanently bent. Does he just lose weight rapidly?


 It could be from his deformity. Does he show any symptoms of internal parasites besides the weight thing?


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

@ TFT thank you!
@ Sadist I'm not sure what symptoms could be for an internal parasite. He acts just like all my other bettas. He's very anxious, though? That may just be his personality. When I (or anyone) come around he rapidly swims away to hide unless you present food.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

> Internal Parasites
> •Symptoms: Betta is losing weight but eating normally and acting lethargic.
> He/she might dart or rub against decor.
> •Treatment: These can be hard to fight and can get confused with the fatal disease Tuberculosis. Perform daily 100% water changes (if possible, for larger aquariums change 3/4). Make sure you carefully clean the gravel to remove eggs/larva. Aq.Salt does not seem to be affective against internal parasites. I find combining ES with an anti-parasite med is best. Treat with 1-2tsp/gal Epsom Salt combined with either Jungle’s Anti-Parasite Pellets, Jungle’s Parasite Clear Fizz tabs or API General Cure. PP is also effective against internal parasites.





> Tuberculosis
> •Symptoms: Fish will start acting sick for no apparent reason. They could just die. Symptoms include weight loss, lethargy, open sores, deformities (scoliosis, bent spine), raised scales, fin and tail rot, gray lesions, and many others. Generally, if your fish are dying in large amounts everyday, it is probably TB. BEWARE HUMANS CAN CONTRACT TUBERCULOSIS FROM FISH, IT IS A POTENTIALLY DEADLY DISEASE.
> •Treatment: There is no known cure, it will generally kill all fish that come in contact with it. It is highly contagious. Bleach does not kill it so throw away all supplies...


Maybe keep an eye on him for any signs of TB, too. The skinny with bent spine is an indication, though usually they act sick (lethargy, no eating, etc). If overt shyness (darting off to hide) isn't part of his personality, it could be a sign of stress or illness. Hopefully, he's just shy and deformed.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

Yeah, he's still acting normal, but he just doesn't look normal?? I hope he's okay, though. I'll still keep an eye on him just in case.

gross groaning so said teacher kept some of the living fish in a 2.5g in direct sunlight. Of course there was a horrible algae bloom and a lot of fish died. I'm not sure if there's any fish at all in there.
I'm thinking of bringing like, 30 of those 5 gallon water dispensers w the top cut off so the fish could at least be in proper space. (30 for all students in the class). I'll honestly do as much as I can to either stop this project from happening again or give the fish a better living space if we are to do it again.

I got a new betta! His name is Candy Cane and he's a koi betta I got from a breeder on instragram. I'm hoping to get a female breeder sometime during Christmas.

The sorority is so much more calm with the new girl finally joining them completely. The fins finally have time to heal and be pretty all over again. I haven't seen chasing or flaring for a while now. I'm glad things are okay!


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm glad they're doing so much better! I guess they needed the calm alpha girl in there.


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## Milkrii (May 11, 2016)

For the past couple of days, I've actually been making a tank of my own. I'm making it out of glass rather than acrylic and of course using aquarium safe silicone glue. It's a 5-6 gallon tank (5.89g) and it's measured to the top size of my side table so it's like my side table is a tank. I'm making it a shrimp tank with a short tail betta! I'm most likely going to put a female betta in there. It's where I'll house the breeder koi female I plan to buy this month/next month. I'm getting her from a different breeder on instagram.

Also? One of my girls (Aster) is missing???? I've checked around to see if she jumped (My tank is fully covered so it's unlikey) and I can't find a body in or out of the tank??? She's really just gone,,
The girls are still acting fine, I don't see any nipped fins, but I guess I'll get another girl...?


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## Sadist (Jan 1, 2015)

:-( Not sure. Hiding? Filter? Surely, there'd be a skeleton left if the others killed her.


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