# breeder humor...



## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

so this page popped up on my facebook feed. thought it was pretty hilarious--a bit NSFW language here and there, but doesnt dampen the hilarious memes.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

That guy is just a little teenage troll from our nz betta group. Basically they started off in good humour but went to far when he started ripping into some of our really young members pet bettas for no reason, so pretty much all of us left the group. Desperate to get back the likes he once had, hes now started advertising his page all over other betta groups pages.


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## trilobite (May 18, 2011)

Haha but now it seems like hes removed all the pictures that got him into trouble


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks for the background info trilobite. I actually never liked the page. Kind of a shame he's ripping on people's pets.


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## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

What is a "Cull Tail?"


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

A cull is organism (in this case, a betta) that posses certain traits that are undesirable or even detrimental to a breeding program. As the word cull suggest, most ethical breeders will euthanize such fish to prevent tainting of stock, though with bettas, I'm sure that adoptions are possible.

Cull tail is a flippant name based off of the other types of tails: vail, halfmoon, crown, plakat, double....


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## nakitaden (Jul 31, 2014)

I actually find the page kind of sad...


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

I don't know what my feeling are on this one... I will admit that I laughed at one of them, as bad as that seems. I also noticed that they post pictures of fish with dropsy and laugh at it like it's the breeders fault... What's up with that?


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

That I didn't agree with either. Dropsy isn't something you can breed for.


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## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

Hm. I had some conflict with that page.


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Sorry, but that is disgusting. Not funny. 

It is always sad if a life should be ended for ethical reasons, although I do believe that fish should be adopted out if their deformities don't impact their quality of life much. Poking fun at the unfortunate aspects of life is never ok in my book...especially since some of those fish were obviously suffering from dropsy, which generally has nothing to do with bad breeding. That just shows the ignorance of this individual; I feel bad for this person's fish


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Personally I don't think that page is worth taking seriously. If you got a chuckle, that's great; if you didn't, it's not a big deal-- maybe I have a lame sense of humor but that's irrelevant. Not worth getting upset over.


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

It was okay, the guy is a bit rude though xD. I only got a little offended at the Dropsy thing because for a second I thought it was a pic of my Milo because the rocks were the same, the color of the fish was the same, and the tail type was the same, and Milo had died of Dropsy o-O. I seriously thought it was him for like a minute.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

Oh that is unfortunate. I'm sorry that reminded you of your late betta. Like I said, I don't agree with his posts concerning fish diseases. The cull tails though I could relate to since I breed bettas.


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## Bailmint (Jun 15, 2013)

Ah it's fine. I wasn't mad at the culls-just the dropsy one. I know there is always a cull or two (maybe more) in each spawn .


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## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

So I told you guys I had some conflict with Cull Tail, and it's lasted for three days now. However, he did come up with an interesting point. 

Cull Tail:Urgh. You shouldn't buy low quality betta. If the market wasn't there people wouldn't do it. But sadly to many uninformed people go out and buy these fish and some one clicks there ticket. Think back to 40 years ago when we had no Halfmoon No nothing. It's taking literally 50 years of trial and error to get Betta to the quality we're at today. And yet half the world still sells sick or deformed Veil tails as if they're acceptable? The sad truth is that any VT deserves a cull. That may sound harsh but the reality is most VT are VT because they've been poorly bred. What that translates to is a fish that dies early has a hard life and doesn't have the genetic strength to fight off diseases or poor tank conditions and what that translates to is an innocent Betta keeper who gets upset because there fish dies for no apparent reason. At some point we have to draw the line and stop these illegitimate breeders from selling fish. For the fish sakes. For the breeders sakes. And for the consumers sake. What sort of tank conditions do you think these VT are bred in? Because I can tell you now they aren't even remotely close to what the requirements are for breeding healthy fish. It's not fair to anyone. It's not right. And honestly it makes me sick to my stomach to think these people are profiting off it.


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## kevinap2 (Apr 3, 2014)

Agreed on the conditions some fish are bred in, but wholesale disagree on any VT being a cull. Given good breeding conditions, VTs can be quite hardy due to the fact they're not inbred 242,382,475,763 times to get the perfect color and finnage.

Is every breeder ethical enough to do that? I'm not delusional enough to answer yes to that question. But saying every VT is a cull is cold, heartless, and misinformed.


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

wasnt expecting anything worthwhile in this thread, except light humor, but im also glad that the discussion ended up being meaningful. it does speak a great deal as to the perceptions and views of others when it comes to betta keeping and breeding. 

i also agree that veiltails shouldnt be categorized as a cull (though i will agree that they dont make veiltails like they used to)-- a cull should be categorized as a cull, meaning anything that is subpar to a desired standard. veiltails used to have a standard--maybe those who are passionate about veiltails should try digging up those old standards and try to bring back the oldschool.


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I saw that red shortbody on AB the other day.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd love to see high quality VT on the market. The fin type is beautiful. Straight up beautiful. I'd like to see butterflies and marbles and striking bicolors in VT at the pet stores, just like we see for the HMs and the DeTs and the CTs. It's a shame that they're mostly mass-bred blues and reds, which while also beautiful are quite common.

I'd try to breed for excellent form and color for VT myself, but quite frankly I can't afford the hemorrhage of money it would take to get to a point where the fish I produced would sell for more than $4 a pop...not many people will pay for shipping for a VT...


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## Flint (Oct 22, 2013)

I've been considering a VT project! ;-)


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## ArcticBeauty14 (Jul 17, 2014)

Yeah. I agree with that not all veiltails are culls


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

The statement about all veiltails being culls just shows the narrow scope of this individual's intellectual abilities. Having a specific tail-type does not determine longevity unless all veiltails were so horribly inbred that they all shared the same genes for immunity, predilection for genetic illness, etc, which is obviously not the case. Many people have veiltails that live normal and even above-normal length lives, so his stance has no evidence. This person obviously just doesn't like the looks of veiltails and tries to justify his position with poorly reasoned logic. Honestly, if we wanted to breed bettas for the good of the fish, we would limit inbreeding and produce only plakats, which are the closest to wild bettas in form and function. Everyone has seen how long fins limit natural mobility, and many long-finned bettas fin nip presumably to lessen the weight of their outrageous fins. This is not to say that I don't love my long-finned boys - I obviously do! However, it is ridiculous to label veiltails as subpar while many of the "fancier" tail types have just as many, if not more, issues due to the breeding processes used to create those perfect fins.


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## averyecho (May 2, 2014)

VT bettas are not cull. They're fish that deserve a home, just like any HM, DeT or CT. I really hate people who say they should be killed. Now, you would probably lose money breeding them unless you're supplying a pet store, but that doesn't mean they're cull. They're just a tail type that doesn't meet today's standards. "Cull" should mean fish who have severe genetic defects, because that's a situation where euthinazation is usually the kindest thing to do for that fish. Bettas with milder defects should just be adopted out if said defects wouldn't affect their daily life in a way that would make them suffer. I'm not saying breed them though- that wouldn't turn out very well. I'm saying if they can live out their lives normally, let them. Same goes for the fry with "undersireable" tail shape or color. 
Anyway, this person annoys me. A lot. All this shows me is that he's so desperate for attention he's making fun of animals that can't help being like that and then attempting to back it up with flawed logic.


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

averyecho said:


> VT bettas are not cull. They're fish that deserve a home, just like any HM, DeT or CT. I really hate people who say they should be killed. Now, you would probably lose money breeding them unless you're supplying a pet store, but that doesn't mean they're cull. They're just a tail type that doesn't meet today's standards. "Cull" should mean fish who have severe genetic defects, because that's a situation where euthinazation is usually the kindest thing to do for that fish. Bettas with milder defects should just be adopted out if said defects wouldn't affect their daily life in a way that would make them suffer. I'm not saying breed them though- that wouldn't turn out very well. I'm saying if they can live out their lives normally, let them. Same goes for the fry with "undersireable" tail shape or color.
> Anyway, this person annoys me. A lot. All this shows me is that he's so desperate for attention he's making fun of animals that can't help being like that and then attempting to back it up with flawed logic.


Agreed on all points .


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

not to say i dont agree with you-- i do. but for the sake of being devil's advocate and to keep this discussion going (because i think it's interesting), i'd like to make an observation that those pushing for adoption, and not killing fish due to superficial defects are not breeders themselves. also there was a reason why i titled this thread as "breeder humor" and not "betta keeper humor", betta breeders and keepers are not synonymous and have different objectives.

as a breeder, may i submit that i too am on limited resources, have a straight-forward goal, and would rather focus on the few fish that pertain to my goals rather than focus my energy on 50-60+ to obtain mediocre results? adoption is nice, but finding individuals who could take on 10-15 bettas at a time are far and few in between (upon the assumption fish are superficially defective) and finding homes for one per fish ends up not being practical--ESPECIALLY if you have 50-60+ culls. it's not talked about, but the reality of the matter is--breeders cull (and im not talking about selling or adoption). not everything can be ideal--if you do have practical ways of avoiding this, im ears.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

It is unfortunate, but culling does happen...and I've been scouting out my local area to see what shops could take overflow bettas, and which ones couldn't. Most shops don't stock very many fish, and take appalling care of those that they do carry. Half of them, I can't see myself selling to them at all, even in the faint hope that someone caring and knowledgeable *might* buy some of the bettas to rescue them from horrid conditions. The chances for those fish just aren't good, and they suffer as a consequence. They suffer badly.

Animals that have massive spawns do so because most of the spawn won't survive to adulthood. It is an adaptation to adverse conditions, a "quantity over quality" approach to reproduction. In the wild, most of the babies will die to accident or become food for other animals. In a domestic setting ... well, there just aren't enough homes for all the fish in a 500+ spawn, and a breeder will have to focus on the best, probably cull the worst, and hope to find outlet for the rest. It isn't always going to be doable, and I can see culling rather than selling to some of the pet stores and knowing that most of that batch will live in misery and die quickly.

Breeding any animal requires both responsibility and understanding of consequences. I cringe when I see people doing spawns as "experiments," because it might be easy to find a home for a mini spawn of 8 or 15 or so...but what happens when you get way more than you can handle? When you have more males than you can accommodate with appropriate jars, or you can't keep up with water changes due to time, or you have cross-bred fish that are physically undesirable...ON PURPOSE...to see what will happen, and end up with weird looking fish. Those fish suffer.

That's why I don't want to breed VTs. I want to go for a fin and tail type that can be rehomed, where there's demand so that I have to kill a minimum of babies. Might as well use the real word...because "culling" is removing them from the gene pool. Permanently.


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## Kim (Apr 30, 2008)

Well, that is exactly why I don't breed. In my mind, if I don't have the time or resources to do something AND keep with my ethics, then I don't do it. If everyone followed this code, there would undoubtedly be a lot fewer betta breeders and a much smaller selection of betta types and colors. However, I would be happy with this situation as I think it would be a step in the right direction for society as a whole.

This is just my opinion though - I am not looking to make any enemies.


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Are we just lumping all breeders together now, as people who kill the fish they produce? (like hrutan said, might as well use the real word... The only thing "cull" serves to do is make the people who kill-cull feel better about it and confuse those of us who realize that it means more than just "kill")

Because I can assure you that this isn't true. I've raised multiple spawns (mainly domestic, some wilds), and multiple fish who most breeders would kill. Most of those fish still live with me... In jars, yes, but eventually they could be adopted out and they're still living, with clean water and good food at that. My favorite breeder does the same thing... Breeds some beautiful fish, and of course some don't turn out perfect... But they don't die because of it. 

Do I cull? Yes, I do! But I cull by doing things like selling them at a low price, or giving them away... My youngest cousin is going to get a cull pretty soon (with her parents supervision, of course). She doesn't realize that the fish is undesirable because it has a lumpy topline. She likes it because it's white and shiny. That's just an example, of course... Point is that a lot of what some breeders kill make perfectly good pets.

So, yes amphirion, there are breeders who will push adoption. Now, keep in mind I'm yet to have a gigantic spawn... But that issue can alway be solved by removing eggs. I've never killed a healthy fish (I have absolutely no issue with me or anyone else kill-culling a severely deformed or sick fish).

My take on veiltail breeding is that if you're going to do it, you have to keep it pure veiltail (no vt x hm crosses, or something like that), and you have to produce something... _different_. Whether that's achieving the old standard or making something unique that will sell (like dragonscales or marbles), I think both are worth praise.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd like to breed, because I want to show, and you can't do the showing without the breeding. So I'll go for the best possible form and fin that I can manage, and breed beautiful fish...not only for pride (I like to be honest with myself), but to make beautiful fish available to others. Without breeders working for show, we'll be stuck with whatever mass producers can crank out easily for profit, and hobbyists that may not be working to any particular standard. That would be a shame. It's good to have people working to improve the breed, but it must be done with care and a sense of responsibility.

...this dude cracking jokes at innocent fish and owners' expense...that's not cool. The fish didn't ask to be born, and the owners love their treasured pets, no matter how "ugly" or "deformed" the fish might be. Lucky fish, in fact, to have someone that treasures them despite their flaws.


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## hrutan (Jun 25, 2014)

MattsBettas - to be honest, I've never been in the position, so I can't _really_ know what I'll do when a huge spawn happens. But, the best chances for very high quality offspring come from the highest survival rate of fry since the eggs that are removed or the fry that are improperly cared for and die could have been the ones needed for the next generation. So I can't say I'd remove the eggs. Instead it would be about loading for bear at that point, making sure I have enough jars and lining up as many potential adopters as I possibly could. Kill-culling would at any rate be a last resort. Not everyone lives in a major city with literally hundreds of possible outlets, however.


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## Piyoteru (Apr 17, 2014)

I remember seeing a breeder on youtube showing the process of their betta breeding. They very heavily culled the fish as they matured and only kept a select few for selling, showing and breeding. They showed which fish they were culling- which all looked beautiful and only had aesthetic faults for showing. I have no idea what kind of 'culling' they did, but I know a lot of people including myself would have loved to buy those 'culls'.


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## Destinystar (May 26, 2012)

I am going to have to remove the FB link and remind all members that FB links are not allowed. This forum would never condone such bad language used on this FB page an that is why we do not allow them since there is no way to control the content on these pages. 

Thanks for your understanding !


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## amphirion (Jan 15, 2014)

MattsBettas said:


> Are we just lumping all breeders together now, as people who kill the fish they produce? (like hrutan said, might as well use the real word... The only thing "cull" serves to do is make the people who kill-cull feel better about it and confuse those of us who realize that it means more than just "kill")
> 
> Because I can assure you that this isn't true. I've raised multiple spawns (mainly domestic, some wilds), and multiple fish who most breeders would kill. Most of those fish still live with me... In jars, yes, but eventually they could be adopted out and they're still living, with clean water and good food at that. My favorite breeder does the same thing... Breeds some beautiful fish, and of course some don't turn out perfect... But they don't die because of it.
> 
> ...


thanks for your input matt. no, i was not implying that euthanizing is a staple practice that all betta breeders do when sorting out fish. i like you, would rather go for adoption than an icebath.

i also agree that veiltails would probably increase their value if something unique were done with them.


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## SkyDye (Jun 29, 2014)

I actually adore the little short stubby red betta, I believe it was a male, I know it was a 'cull' tail but if I had another tank I would have taken him. Mainly because I would feel bad and would want to tend to his special needs and give him the best fishy life possible cause I bet he might have swimming issues due to short fins, and of course the very stubby body. I wonder how the little guy is doing :|


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