# Potential Mates Advice



## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't plan on breeding until I have much more time/funds to devote to it. HOWEVER. I would like some advice. 

This is my new male, Double-O-Bubbles (he hasn't arrived yet). I was thinking that a nice girl for him would be a solid white HM. Or maybe even a SDet to breed out the OHM in my male. I particularly like the EE trait, but I've read that this is recessive, so not having it isn't a huge deal. However, he has bright colors, and I thought that black would really bring them out. Double-O-Bubbles already has white, though. Sooo, I was thinking that would just add yet another color, which isn't exactly what I'm wanting. This is what I had in mind thus far for an actual game plan if everything were perfect in my world:

OHM Lavender Butterfly Male (Double-O-Bubbles) X HMEE Solid White Female.

In a perfect world, or in my _mind's_ perfect world, this would keep the Lavender Butterfly markings, and cause the body itself to lighten. 

Any thoughts and/or advice? Any and all is accepted!


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

By advice, I meant female pairs. This is what I've found on aquabid. I particularly like the third one.

1.) Black
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1359783298

2.) White
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1359929946

3.) Similar coloring w/ white body
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1360080321


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## MediBedi (Jan 23, 2013)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> By advice, I meant female pairs. This is what I've found on aquabid. I particularly like the third one.
> 
> 1.) Black
> http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1359783298
> ...


From what I read somewheres.. I thought black female bettas were infertile?


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh wow really? Well that makes things easier, lol.


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## MediBedi (Jan 23, 2013)

Just looked it up again. But yea Pure Black female bettas are infertile while Black Lace female bettas are fertile. (May have some iridescent of another color most commonly royal blue) 
Example - black orchids


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Hm. I was contemplating re-stating my look for a black lace female, but now I know that I should. Still looking at breeding info. Again, I want to gather more info. I just want to have a nice pair. Still need the male here with me to begin with, too!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

Melano (true) blacks are infertile- they produce a protein in their eggs that doesn't allow the fry to develop properly. Your male is a rosetail, so you may want to reconsider spawning him out of fears of defects.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Even if I'm not looking for show, but only for pet purposes? In defects, would it only be in terms of _tail design_ defect or _serious_ defect spawns?

The reason I ask is because I have a love for rosetails, even though I know they're not highly approved of.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

The white girl would be the only one out of the bunch that I would pair him with.. your guy has a short tail, is a feather/rose tail which means most of the fry would be culled.. 

The white female has a bit longer of a tail which could help bring out his a little.. worried about the anal fin being too long though.. 

The last girl looks to have some CT in her, that or some real messy fins.. add it with your boy's fins you will have some messed up fins.

Not trying to be rude - but your boy needs a really clean, tight girl to help counteract his faults - if you are just going to sell them for pets locally, then the white girl will be fine, just don't expect a lot of breeders buying them or people spending a fair amount of money for them. Rosetails/feather tails tend to have a lot of deformity in their offspring.. that type of tail is a deformity, but people will get them because they look pretty.. but they aren't something breeders breed with.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

All I was planning on was breeding for pet purposes. So maybe a smaller finned female if what I should be looking for?


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## aemaki09 (Oct 23, 2012)

If you are dead set on breeding him, get a white female that has more even fins, also look for a low ray count, that could help offset the rose-tail


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Alright. Thank you for all of the advice everyone!


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## MattsBettas (Dec 18, 2012)

As long as you breed with a non rosetail female, it should be ok but keep in mind that finnage and scale issues are common and it is usual to have a lot of rungs.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Alright. For a while it was sounding like he wasn't worth breeding whatsoever....like it was almost disgusting Lol. I really love his colors. Even the fact that he is a rosetail. I'm willing to risk the mass-cullings and small numbers for the fish that I want out of it. I've been reading everything in the sticky threads and all of the added URLS in those stickies here. I just need to find the right female at this point. Again, thank you guys for all of the advice thus far!


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

Leave a white female for someone who will use her please rather than ruining color. 

Just get a fish that is similar in color with less extreme branching.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't feel as if it will be ruining color. Thank you though.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

Meeko, I think it is rather harsh to say she would be ruining color. Please try to phrase your comments a bit more diplomatically so as not to hurt feelings.


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## MrVampire181 (May 12, 2009)

It's really difficult to get a clean white. Why would you breed a fish like yours to a a solid color? A multi female would be a much better choice. 

However this forum obviously hasn't changed much. More concerned about politeness than anything regarding fish. Well back to Facebook groups for me.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Don't see picture of male but assuming he's a salamander butterfly rose tail.

You don't have to worry about butterfly pattern. You should produce some of them for generations to come.This pattern has nothing to do with white color genes. Maybe white genes will make the pattern white instead of clear.
Second and third female should work in pertaining his color. Not sure how black works though. Depending on type of black, you might get black or irid smudges instead. Melano black females are infertile and super blacks are not really pure black (not sure what makes them). 

I'm more concerned about the rose trait. Most rose are genetically deformed - unless you know the breeder or the bettas background. The safest is breeding him to a 4 ray female. But if he is a carrier and produces lots of deformed fry, you will have to cull every single one of them, including the healthy looking ones. 

If you love rose, simply breed a pair of 8 rays. Good 8 ray genes will produce lots of roses. But poor genes will only yield few, if any.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

Meeko's bred whites, i think. and has bred many other colors of bettas for a long while now. :I i think he'd know that breeding a white female to a multi male would ruin what OP is trying to go for... his wording wasn't harsh at all, he was stating facts, facts he knows due to experience in breeding bettas of various color patterns. he gave good advice in this matter. he just didn't sugar coat things, and he never has sugar coated things. i'd personally rather get advice from someone who's done this before, rather than someone who's gonna sugar coat things.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Luimeril said:


> Meeko's bred whites, i think. and has bred many other colors of bettas for a long while now. :I i think he'd know that breeding a white female to a multi male would ruin what OP is trying to go for... his wording wasn't harsh at all, he was stating facts, facts he knows due to experience in breeding bettas of various color patterns. he gave good advice in this matter. he just didn't sugar coat things, and he never has sugar coated things. i'd personally rather get advice from someone who's done this before, rather than someone who's gonna sugar coat things.


If I'm not mistaken, the OP's concern is producing salamanders, not white. IME, cambodian or anything from cambodian (incl white), will retain the color - if another salamander isn't available. Or if a darker shade is desired, irid colors should work (namely blue). Both cambodian and irid will produce lots of non salamanders too.

At times it is necessary to "ruin" certain solid colors to achieve a goal. What is important to me is helping the OP reach his/her goal . . . . and everything can be explained in a nice way.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I suppose I should've stated things differently. The purpose wasn't to get a pure white body. I would've purchased a white fish had I wanted that. It was to attempt to get different variations of this boy's color pattern: I.E.: a lighter version of it all together/ a lighter body/darker finnage/ lighter finnage/darker body. Naturally this happens through-out generations, and I'd never expect any of these things to happen on the first go. I just want to be able to play around with these colors. I'm interested with the scientific side of it. (Has anyone in IBC made any scientific-like records of their breedings reguarding this "x-factor"? I'd really like to be able to read about it if able to) I would just appreciate some pointing in the right direction. 

I saw a rather pretty lavender (more red than blue in this case) HMPKEE. She was VERY tight finned, and she has a BF pattern. 

1.)My worries still stand with the breeding of a rose-tail. I really don't want an x-factor fish.
2.)Would PK's tail shorten my guy's tail? He already has a problem with his caudal being shorter than his dorsal and anal fins.
3.)Also, I'm worried about crossing another genetic mutation with an initial genetic mutation. It wounds like a recipe for disaster. 

I'm having trouble with learning to count rays. I know that may sounds silly, but I'm really trying. I want to make sure I get that down before I make any decisions. 

_Also, I only expect this to be a hobby. I am not wanting this to be a life long dream job.....that is why I am going to college. I would like to enjoy this, which is why politeness is appreciated._


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

I wouldn't breed a rosetail the risks are too high and like said if he turns out to produce xfacot fry then you have to cull everything. Also once it gets into the lines it's hard to fix so if someone breed your babies later on and sold them as showable breeding fish....o.o well it would destroy a lot of breeding projects I'll tell you. Even giving your fish to petshops wont stop it as many people breed petshop fish, mainly being inexperienced breeders. If any of those breeders though hope to produce show quality fish along the line they may breeding back into your lien and get nightmares as results and have to start over. I hate to think about not just your fry but fry those fry will produce and issues that will arise in the overall bloodline. I feel like this is one of those issues, if you know a dog has a serious health issue why breed him so his puppies can get it and those puppies, then it washes into good lines and those puppies will have the risk and there goes that bloodline and now it's more and more prevalent in the breed and GAH everyone's pet is dying of something horrid related to that breed and hearts are broken and animals suffer. If you are breeding for pets then above all breed for health.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

.....Ok. Back to the drawing board then. Thank you for wording it so kindly LadyVictorian. I can't help but laugh, though....I read that entire statement as if you were saying it in one long, drawn-out, breath.


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

xD I tend to talk like that in real life until I run out and sort of do the Ace Ventura thing. 

I very much picked up my breeding morals from the mouse community. There were two types of breeders, show breeders who breed for perfect conformation and the next champion and then pet breeders who still bred for good conformation 'not show but good' but above all they bred for health and personality (ie friendlyness). We always said if you couldn't breed healthy kind mice then don't breed. When people buy them for shows or breeding show fish they want the best lookers who can improve their stock. When you breed for pets you have to remember these will be animals people will love. Breeding strong healthy fish means those owners will face less issues and hopefully will have longer happier lives with the animal they come to love. I know the pain of bad breeding myself with my Doberman Pincher. She was only 7 when we had to put her down due to cancer which can be prevalent in the breed though most breeders try to weed it out. She was perhaps the best dog I have ever know, perfect in every way and saying goodbye to her so soon over something so horrid was hard on the family. I know fish and dogs are not the same but the love owners feel for them is.

I wish you luck on finding a nice pair to work with though. If you breed some HM I would love to know when the spawn comes, I may grab a boy up myself.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

I was trying to find a viable way of getting around it. Hoping, well, praying that it wasn't a genetic mutation that was that bad on a fish. How unfortunate. I can't wait to love Double-O-Bubbles, though! He just won't be my breeding daddy. I'll find me a nice, big HM male. Somewhere. :roll:


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## LadyVictorian (Nov 23, 2011)

If you live close to MN I would say go to a place called The Betta Shop, that place carried great fish. Even if you don't live there you can still ship. Wait till Aprilish to ship and the shipping for overnight will be cheaper. It's another option other than AB and the fish tend to be cheaper too and VERY nice with LOTS of great colors. I got my boy from there and am going to eventually work on show worthy HMPK lines from him 

Also the guy who runs it is very helpful and will answer any questions on the fish you have, you can even order what color you want and he will find it for you.

http://www.mnbettashop.com/

You could even get a pair right from him and just tell him what you are looking for and ship them together to save on price.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

That show number one is teasing. Lol. Where is show number 7 for HM? I'm not really close to MN. I have a friend who lives there, but I doubt she could care for my fish for me. 

Mildly curious: dad's color pattern typically come out fuller than mom's in the fry? or vice versa? in example:

dad is HM black lace and mom is HM black orchid?

lets use pictures since I'm not very good. just for learning purposes:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1359946811

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashm&1359940806

I greatly appreciate everything that everyone on this forum has done for me...I wish that there was some way I could repay you guys...


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

If you can get another male, I'd rather not breed a bought rose - unless I know for certain of its genetics.

Sorry I can't post you a sketch on rays. It's in my comp, which blew a fuse, so to speak. But just to explain, rays start from one and branches. When we say 4 ray, one ray eventually branches to 4 at the end. 8 rays means one ray branches into 8 . . . . and so on.

I don't believe males color is more dominant. IMO it all depends on who's genes are more fixed in the individual. My results show that color can go either way.
But I do believe that females are more dominant for form. Though not 100% true, yet often reliable.

You want to repay us? . . . Easy; enjoy yourself, enjoy your hobby and breed responsibly


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Hadoken Kitty said:


> I don't feel as if it will be ruining color. Thank you though.


If you want to breed then go ahead and do it. Listen to Indjo. He gives great advice.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Erghhh It's so hard!!! Can you tell how many this guy has? This picture seems kinda card for me to count. I can't tell if it's the picture quality, or just my noviceness.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Sorry for taking so long. I tried to look for older posts on rays . . . don't understand how to use the "search". While I keep looking, in the mean time; . . . imagine a line from the mouth to the tail. In that picture you will see/meet the center ray. This ray branches into 8 rays. I know it's not that clear, but enough for you to see/count the end rays. If you look at 2 and 3 rays below that center ray, you will see that they only branch into 4 rays. 

When viewing a live fish (or unclear pictures), you can't really count the rays. They will never keep still and pose for you, LOL. So you have to memorize the shape of 2 - 4 - 8 - more rays to "guess" the ray count.


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## VictorP (Jun 5, 2012)

I agree with Dom. The forum is definitely more concerned about politeness than fish. All that aside I agree that you should find a female more fitting for the male.


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## Myates (Aug 2, 2011)

I can never figure out the search function either for this site.. I have better luck googling the question/topic and can find the thread that way faster than using the search here lol


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/breeding-betta-fish/branching-question-77609/#post775884

Try looking at that thread - should give you a better idea.


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## inareverie85 (Apr 18, 2008)

I am glad you decided not to breed the rosetail.  It's really a lot of risk for the babies. 

Let us know if you see other fish that you'd like an opinion on and we will try to help.


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## Hadoken Kitty (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh wow that's an awesome thread! Just put it on my favorite's list. I don't know how to use the search either...lol

Actually, I have another thread about the fish I will be breeding with now. So all of my questions regarding that specific fish will be under that thread, just to keep along with the forum rules.


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