# mini bettas?



## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

is it possible to breed mini bettas since it's possible to breed giants? I personally think that would be really cool and adorable and I'm pretty sure many people would agree ....


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## ZackyBear (Dec 1, 2011)

I think it would be the same challenge as it is breeding giants, though. Genetics and everything....

Never head of a mini bettas before o.o


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

I think as with anything it isn't impossible but the chances of "mini" fry living to adulthood is 1000000:1 It is actually considered a deformity or a mutation by most breeders, and these stunted fry tend to be culled for this precise reason!


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## Crowntailed (Apr 19, 2012)

Makeing mini bettas is a little diffrent then makeing giants. They would have a lot more deformed bodies and other problems that giants didn't have.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

even if they were proportionate but just a little smaller?


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## Junglist (Feb 23, 2012)

Mini Bettas? never heard of mini bettas besides juvenile fry's. Is it some kind of dworf betta species?


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## Crowntailed (Apr 19, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> even if they were proportionate but just a little smaller?


I dont know about that. But i do know its harder makeing fish smaller then it is larger. Because fish bodies are made to try to keep growing so makeing them smaller would meen stunting. Its possible to make a mini betta but it will probably be a lot harder then makeing a giant.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

Finnfinn: It is as Becky said, I have a "mini" betta but he is actually just stunted. I think my petsmart wanted to sell younger bettas because then they'll "live longer" but the growth hormone ended up polluting their cups so they stayed stunted.

I can only feed him about a third of what I feed my other boys because he's so small. his body is barely over 1.5" while my other boys are EASILY 2"


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

bahamut285 said:


> Finnfinn: It is as Becky said, I have a "mini" betta but he is actually just stunted. I think my petsmart wanted to sell younger bettas because then they'll "live longer" but the growth hormone ended up polluting their cups so they stayed stunted.
> 
> I can only feed him about a third of what I feed my other boys because he's so small. his body is barely over 1.5" while my other boys are EASILY 2"


Well my guy is definitely fully grown by now (had him for 5 months) and his body is only 1.25".....Is he stunted? I thought regular betta get to be about 3" TOTAL including their long tails....(non-plakat)

EDIT: "full grown" as in adult size. I know they keep growing....


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

It would be similar to breeding "teacup" bettas, a la teacup dogs. They will have a phenomenal number of health issues regarding their size. Smaller body means smaller organs. You would have to constantly feed them BBS or microworms and would never be able to switch them to pellets unless you take the effort to crush it into a fine dust. 

They're already fairly small fish, why would you want smaller ones? Because it's *cute*? Teacup dogs are "cute" too but I'm sure you know the controversy behind them.

I would personally try to maximize the health of a regular sized betta rather than experiment with lines just to get a dwarf betta or something. As Becky pointed out, they are culled for a reason, unfortunately :/

Also RE: I just checked, my CT is barely over one inch









I hope he'll grow eventually


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

It would be very possible to breed for small, but I don't know who would do it, or why. Deformities would not be a problem any more than for growing any line.

Jeff.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Smaller fish mean smaller babies
Which mean harder to raise 
Which led to higher price for a smaller fish with not market
Y make a betta smaller when it already small enough


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Smaller fish mean smaller babies
> Which mean harder to raise
> Which led to higher price for a smaller fish with not market
> Y make a betta smaller when it already small enough


Are the fry born to Giants larger than regular fry? I don't think this would be the case? I would think this is an unsubstantiated claim that a smaller adult Betta would have to come from a smaller fry.

Jeff.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

To me giant have larger egg n fry.
But I've never compare the two side by side


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Smaller fish mean smaller babies
> Which mean harder to raise
> Which led to higher price for a smaller fish with not market
> Y make a betta smaller when it already small enough


Who says theres no market?

and who says it's small enough?

There are smaller fish than betta....they are just that way, but still...


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

jeffegg2 said:


> It would be very possible to breed for small, but I don't know who would do it, or why. Deformities would not be a problem any more than for growing any line.
> 
> Jeff.


well if the question is why, then why do people breed giants?


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Giant are bred for larger size.
More appealing 
Easier to spot inside of a tank
Reason y people buy small fish is cause that they swim in a school
Y have a 1"-1.5" fish all by itself


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Giant are bred for larger size.
> More appealing
> Easier to spot inside of a tank
> Reason y people buy small fish is cause that they swim in a school
> Y have a 1"-1.5" fish all by itself


I think the OP's point is that for some folks, a mini betta would be more appealing, the same way folks who love teacup chihuahuas would think my 8 1/2 pound Chi an ungainly abomination...of course, folks who have German shepards may not even consider any chihuahua worth the effort.
I personally don't find giant bettas more appealing, though I might not like mini bettas either. I just tend to get the ones I can't resist. ;-)


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Curlyfatbottom said:


> Giant are bred for larger size.
> More appealing
> Easier to spot inside of a tank
> Reason y people buy small fish is cause that they swim in a school
> Y have a 1"-1.5" fish all by itself


You write everything like it is a poem, lol

because you could humanely have a smaller tank for it. It's good for people that do not have as much space


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

finnfinnfriend said:


> You write everything like it is a poem, lol
> 
> because you could humanely have a smaller tank for it. It's good for people that do not have as much space


bad habit
just go with what ever pop up in my head
n i just write it down
yeah
smaller size don't mean smaller housing
anything smaller then a 5 gallon is really hard to work with


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

To the OP: 

I have "mini" bettas. They're normal proportions, but they're stunted. I admittedly didn't change their water enough times a week when they were fry. The biggest is about 9 months old now and is only 1 inch. :/

EDIT:: Oh and I *do not* recommend that anyone try to stunt fry on purpose. Mine was an accident and they just happened to live. Most of the fry didn't make it. :c


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I was about to say...

Say someone did make a ling of mini bettas, who the males only make it to 1.5 and females perhaps 1 inch. Now, people are going to put these cute minis in a bowl, which is very much what many people are against. If you had a betta the size of most neon tetras, someone is going to put a betta in a 0.25 gallon, or divide a 0.5 for two mainly because they are smaller, and they won't think a 5 gallon is needed for an itty bitty...

My little Minny, fits her name. Mini. She is SMALL. She's a stunted just over 1 inch gal, which is half the size of the other females.

I think it WOULD be possible, but considering if you look at most species of fish, take the guppy for instance, most make it to 1-1.5 inches. Someone gave their guppies a 100 gallon tank and many of them made it to 4-6 inches, and some have been recorded (and I have seen!) here of that huge size! But, the way people get small ones is stunting which can be very dangerous to pass deformities and such onto fry from that parent.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Sena Hansler said:


> Now, people are going to put these cute minis in a bowl, which is very much what many people are against. If you had a betta the size of most neon tetras, someone is going to put a betta in a 0.25 gallon, or divide a 0.5 for two


Most people who I see buying bettas (even gups and tetras!) at petstores do this. -__- I try to correct them, but usually they don't listen. D: 

But yes, as Sena said - fry that are stunted should not be bred for the reasons she stated. So in theory, yes you could produce small fish, but their genes would be so screwed up that they'd only produce crappy offspring (which no one with decent eyes of fish would buy - so there goes the market.).


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

I'd be afraid of buying tiny anything. Tiny horse, tiny dog, tiny fish. My Admiral didn't last because his immune system died on him, Rose was beaten to death since the others were 1-3 times bigger than she was :-(

I'd be very scared to breed a stunted betta, mainly because how many of the fry will have crooked spines, chronic issues, and die? Say out of 200, only 1 survives... I'd hate that! I have 4 from a baby-eater CT :lol: that's bad enough for me LOL


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm not understanding why you think that stunting a fish does something to the genes? It sounds all environmental to me, cruel, but just the enviroment. The actual genetics of the fish should not have changed...

If you want to breed for small, that is different than stunting by not changing the water properly.

Jeff.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Perhaps not the genes, but definitely the immune systems and physical appearance will both be affected. Most likely you'll end up with sickly fish.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Yes, more susceptible to diseases and parasites than the average betta, because stunting causes more internal problems. Plus the higher risk of a dead father/mother, which we all know well the risk of healthy fish dying after spawning! Breeding stunted fish, creates a higher chance of deformities.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Sena Hansler said:


> I was about to say...
> 
> Say someone did make a ling of mini bettas, who the males only make it to 1.5 and females perhaps 1 inch. Now, people are going to put these cute minis in a bowl, which is very much what many people are against. If you had a betta the size of most neon tetras, someone is going to put a betta in a 0.25 gallon, or divide a 0.5 for two mainly because they are smaller, and they won't think a 5 gallon is needed for an itty bitty...
> 
> ...


If that is true about little guppies, then NEVERMIND! Bettas are already mini fish in that case!


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

Making the fry grow slow don't have an effect negative effect on the fish.
Most fighter perfer a slow going fish
Stronger scale, last longer n can sizs up with a younger fish
I agree with smaller fish
People will put them in smaller tanks


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think the op meant it as a hypothetical question.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

youlovegnats said:


> Perhaps not the genes, but definitely the immune systems and physical appearance will both be affected. Most likely you'll end up with sickly fish.


Of the stunted fish sure, but the offspring should not be affected if they are treated well.

Jeff.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

7 month old fish that weight 1.6 gram is not a stun growth fish
It's kind of normal
It have time to build immune system to fit it's body
Fast growing fish
It's have the size but weaker all around body,scale n health


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## EvilVOG (Nov 23, 2011)

I breed giants so that they can be housed with other fish other than their current options of tank-mates. specifically since you can generally only have one male betta in a tank, it gives you more options.

I can see a market for smaller than normal bettas, but it should be done via genetics, not by stunting.

It would be very difficult to get the genetics to do it though. you would likely need at least 10 lines of fish going to cross and re cross then cross with each other. And then need it to catch on with other breeders very quickly to get a deep enough gene pool going.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

EvilVOG said:


> I breed giants so that they can be housed with other fish other than their current options of tank-mates. specifically since you can generally only have one male betta in a tank, it gives you more options.
> 
> I can see a market for smaller than normal bettas, but it should be done via genetics, not by stunting.
> 
> It would be very difficult to get the genetics to do it though. you would likely need at least 10 lines of fish going to cross and re cross then cross with each other. And then need it to catch on with other breeders very quickly to get a deep enough gene pool going.


Oh ive been wanting to ask you! How big are your adult giants? Like the parents, I guess...


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> Of the stunted fish sure, but the offspring should not be affected if they are treated well.
> 
> Jeff.


Well if the environment is kept in good conditions, you wouldn't have any "minis" you'd have normal sized bettas.

IMO this could only result is disaster and shouldn't be tempted by anyone. With experience or not. This would take years and as EvilVOG said you would have to have quite a few lines to even get this started. It would take a few years.

Just think how much selective breeding you'd have to do? I think we should work on trying to perfect the tail types and categories we currently have instead of making more problems.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

dramaqueen said:


> I think the op meant it as a hypothetical question.


And we're answering it as a hypothetical. Also including our opinions about it to be sure we get the point across.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bettalover2033 said:


> Well if the environment is kept in good conditions, you wouldn't have any "minis" you'd have normal sized bettas.
> 
> .


Well, there would be a slight variance in size, which is what you would use to breed for small. I agree it would not happen overnight, but you could get a much smaller betta after a few years. Environment was not used to go from wild betta to long fin. Breeding uses the slight changes in the genetic code from offspring to offspring to obtain that which you desire in the offspring.

Jeff.


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## Sena Hansler (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, even if mini bettas happened I would not buy one. I know I'd end up watching them suffer living in martini glasses, and a bowl that held one cup of water


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

That's true. Then we definitely would see them living in shot glasses.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

bettalover2033 said:


> And we're answering it as a hypothetical. Also including our opinions about it to be sure we get the point across.


I know. I just wanted to be clear on it in case someone misunderstood.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm considering this (the OP's original question) to be a hypothetical question. I am not advising to try it.

Yes it is possible to breed them small. Size of betta has little or no effect to size of eggs. My regular lays the same size egg to my half giants. Smaller bettas may lay fewer eggs compared to bigger bettas - but this too is questionable since half giants and true giants are 2-3 times the size of regulars, yet they lay the same number of eggs.

I've heard people in my area use the term "bonsai" for smaller sized bettas that can't grow like regulars. But I wasn't interested in small and never bothered to take a look. I don't know whether it was due to defected genes or not - All I'm saying is that it is possible to get small mutation, but I don't know how to achieve it nor do I know it's genetic consequences.

Stunting a betta does not affect it's genes nor does it affect it's immune system. I do it to many of my females so they remain smaller than my males and would be easier to breed to a male offspring. While I feed others all they would eat, I only feed these females enough (not until they bloat) and I keep them in small jars with 1-2 100% water changes daily. Bettas stunted due to diseases are the ones with problematic immune systems.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

i found what the OP might be thinking about last night, and it broke my heart. shorter or smaller bettas, aren't healthy. i mean.... you're cramming all those important organs into a small body.... :I i mean, yeah. they'll be cuter, but... you don't want to make something smaller than it is. bigger might be okay, but never smaller....

i mean... how is this healthy?








i won't lie. he's adorable, and i do want him, but only to give him a better life than what he might get. he's probably blind, and if he makes shipping, he probably won't live very long....


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Luimeril said:


> i found what the OP might be thinking about last night, and it broke my heart. shorter or smaller bettas, aren't healthy. i mean.... you're cramming all those important organs into a small body.... :I i mean, yeah. they'll be cuter, but... you don't want to make something smaller than it is. bigger might be okay, but never smaller....
> 
> i mean... how is this healthy?
> 
> ...


EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS COMMENT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING:

That's not at all what I was thinking of. I said earlier that they would be proportionate. But then I heard guppies COULD grow to 5" so then I said nevermind because in that case, regular sized betta are already mini fish.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

aahh... that points things in a different direction.

well, ya know. it's like when people breed dogs. there's a fad now for tiny dogs. teacups, they call them. you're taking a dog, and breeding to make it smaller. that.... causes issues. again, you're cramming organs into small bodies. making something small, smaller. it causes health issues in the dogs, because you're breeding the runts, who aren't healthy to start with oftentimes.... yeah, they're cute. ain't gonna lie. but, i'm sure bettas would suffer the same way if you try to breed for small bettas. there's issues in stunted bettas, so there'd be issues in mini bettas.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

If the results of a brood had smaller betta with normal sized organs and was not healthy, then I would expect natural selection to take it's toll and reduce the population. What the discussion is about, is smaller, and healthy Bettas. Not deformed, just smaller in size. No-one wants to see deformed unhealthy fish.

I see neon tetras very small, not deformed, healthy fish. Why not with Betta? This was the question posed by the OP, not do we want grossly deformed stunted Bettas.....

Jeff.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

The only possible way you could do this successfully is to breed the runts. Once again breeding the runts for their small size will inherit a wide variety of health problems associated with their size. Read up on the controversy with toy dogs.

Re: Jeff, you can't make comparisons to different species of fish. That's like trying to say: "Yes that Great Dane is really big, but it MUST be possible to get a smaller Great Dane that is super healthy because Bichon Frises are small so it MUST work!"

Neons were always that small and it is like comparing oranges with watermelons.

Genetics isn't magic, it's logical and complicated.


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## Novo623 (May 25, 2012)

agreed with bahamut. trying to breed the runts will give you genetically deformed fish with problems.

bettas are small as it is. what would be the point of making them smaller? to make them cute? that would be selfish since the fish would inherit many health problems.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Experimental breeding is okay until it involves the fish to go through so much distress. Only to have bad results as it is.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bahamut285 said:


> The only possible way you could do this successfully is to breed the runts. Once again breeding the runts for their small size will inherit a wide variety of health problems associated with their size. Read up on the controversy with toy dogs.
> 
> Fish are not dogs. Selective breeding is not the same as breeding indescriminately. You would choose healthy smaller fish as your next breeders, not unhealty deformed runts. What health problems to smaller fish have that you know of? Bringing up puppy farmed small dogs is not a fair comparison.
> 
> ...


I am talking about Selective Breeding for a smaller fish, You are talking about taking deformed fish that are not healthy and using them to breed. Totally different in my opinion.

I agree that the idea is not something that I have an interest in following, but I postulate that it is indeed possible and that the fish could be healthy and smaller. How long it would take? Well, I see no Giant Halfmoon Bettas yet, so perhaps it could take decades? Who knows.

Jeff.


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## Luimeril (Dec 29, 2010)

this is what comes of breeding the smaller bettas.... this. :I









i'm out of this now. breeding for smaller bettas isn't a good idea. the end.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

I never said that the runts were deformed. I merely stated that you would have to find and breed the smallest betta out of the spawn and even then they would not necessarily produce smaller betta. In most cases (more often than not) the smallest member of a spawn or litter or what have you generally does not outlive its infancy for various reasons; whether it is culled/rejected by the parent, or because it has no access to food or is more susceptible to illness. (In the wild, just to make that clarification -_-)

No, what I meant by the Great Dane comment is your comparison to neons. You cannot simply assume that it is possible to breed smaller bettas just because smaller fish exist. (However I am also not saying it is impossible. Simply pointing out that logic)

Also I never said that *all small fish* have deformed organs. Seriously?

The Characidae family has far too many subfamilies for you to assume that they were once enormous fish. While yes, their current appearance is refined over millions of years. In specific, the neon tetra is listed under "Incertae sedis" which is a term that taxonomists use for: "LOL I DUNNO WHAT THIS IS"; once again, for all we know they could have been huge or small, but the fact of the matter is that they were and are small for all intents and purposes.

The last sentence was for the OP.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Luimeril said:


> this is what comes of breeding the smaller bettas.... this. :I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no. you're wrong. and if small dogs are so bad, then why do small dogs live more than twice as long as giant dogs? also, fish are nothing like dogs anyway.

thank you for backing me up, Jeff


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Everyone just thinks they are some kind of renegade animal activist, don't they....just jumping into conversations where they think there is cruelty when there isn't.

Would everyone just calm down and listen to me?

I SAID I WANTED MINI BETTA AT FIRST AND THEN I REALIZED IT COULDNT HAPPEN AND THEN I HEARD HOW BIG GUPPIES COULD GROW AND SAID NEVERMIND BECAUSE REGULAR SIZED BETTA ARE ALREADY MINI FISH ANYWAY>


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

sorry for starting a freaking flame war, geez.....


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Don't worry about it, finnfinnfriend. As long as things stay civil a good debate is fine.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

finnfinnfriend said:


> why do small dogs live more than twice as long as giant dogs?


Metabolism, generally. Also, Bichon Frise live for 12-13 years, while Great Danes live for 8-10 years.



finnfinnfriend said:


> Everyone just thinks they are some kind of renegade animal activist, don't they....just jumping into conversations where they think there is cruelty when there isn't.


I am not an animal activist. You asked a hypothetical question, I gave you an answer.




finnfinnfriend said:


> no. you're wrong.


If I (or Luimeril as the case may be) are wrong, and presuming you are right, then why did you ask a question? A question is not a measure of how correct you are, but to seek knowledge.

You asked for knowledge and I gave you mine. Agreeing with Jeff just because you want to appear correct defeats the purpose of seeking knowledge.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Just calm down, please. I get really sensitive and hurt when people make me look like I'm cruel to animals, which I am the opisite of. I don't ever plan on breeding anything except maybe dogs in the far future so please, I just want to be friends with everyone....


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

lol what? I'm not angry? :S

I never said you were cruel to animals, I just said the idea and methods WOULD be cruel if not researched or attended to properly


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

If someone *SELECTED* these fish for breeding, then that is the breeders fault. If I was breeding for small fish, which I'm not, then this would not be a candidate obviously... Are you trying to tell us that ALL fish that are small result in this??? You must not understand *SELECTIVE* breeding. This is similar to saying that all attempts to breed Halfmoon lead to deformity, so the line should be abandoned....

Jeff.



Luimeril said:


> this is what comes of breeding the smaller bettas.... this. :I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Those short-bodied betta are really ugly BTW....


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

finnfinnfriend said:


> Just calm down, please. I get really sensitive and hurt when people make me look like I'm cruel to animals, which I am the opisite of. I don't ever plan on breeding anything except maybe dogs in the far future so please, I just want to be friends with everyone....


I've read this whole thread and I don't think anyone meant to make you look like a cruel pet owner.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

The logic of A small Betta is deformed, therefore all small Betta's will be deformed is just invalid. I have seen Betta's of different sizes, and I cannot say that the large ones are more healthy than the small ones.

A newborn Betta is almost microscopic, yet healthy and not deformed. That in itself should be proof that you can have both small and healthy.

Look at these 6 week old Bettas and tell me that they are deformed and unhealthy!

http://youtu.be/8v2HjB6MYsY

Jeff.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> A newborn Betta is almost microscopic, yet healthy and not deformed. That in itself should be proof that you can have both small and healthy.


By this logic you're assuming that *I think* newborn human babies are just deformed adults. LOLOL. Of COURSE the baby is healthy at that size; else it won't live past its infancy! Take note of premie babies as well, they are much smaller than your average baby, and the doctors have to do everything in their power to keep it warm and safe before it leaves the hospital.

Babies are not the same as full adults. No animal on this earth comes into this world fully grown. A newborn betta will GROW, including it's outer body and organs.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Nope, only questioning the logic that small = deformed and unhealthy. Yes I believe that some unhealthy fish are small, and some inbreeding may cause small deformed fish to appear, but that does not automatially lead me to *assume* that all small fish would be unhealthy and deformed. Through *careful selective breeding*, it would be *feasable* to breed a *small healthy Betta*. However I don't see a market for such a fish, so it is all a moot point.

Jeff.





bahamut285 said:


> By this logic you're assuming that *I think* newborn human babies are just deformed adults. LOLOL. Of COURSE the baby is healthy at that size; else it won't live past its infancy! Take note of premie babies as well, they are much smaller than your average baby, and the doctors have to do everything in their power to keep it warm and safe before it leaves the hospital.
> 
> Babies are not the same as full adults. No animal on this earth comes into this world fully grown. A newborn betta will GROW, including it's outer body and organs.


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## indjo (Jun 6, 2010)

Just wanted to point out that these controversial(?) debates are good knowledge because it makes us think and makes some research more info on the topic. Through these debates, we expand and develop. Everyone here is respecting the other - IMO a civil constructive debate.

@finnfinnfriend: No one is saying you are cruel. Everyone is only pointing out their knowledge and belief on this matter. So please don't be offended in anyway. IMO you started a good topic to discuss and I thank you for it. It is truly an interesting topic.

Here's what I believe; making anything bigger/smaller than it's original size will, in the first few generations, cause problems. Look at the giants, they have low immune systems. Perhaps a safer way to change their size is by introducing genes from different species/family or what ever they're called ..... not sure. 

Fish are different from dogs (mammals) - I've seen big doberman pinschers and small doberman terriers(?). But IMO the basic principle of introducing small/big genes can be applied..... if there is a big/small species that can be crossed to the splendens.


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, any type of selective breeding lends itself to the possibility of deformities. Take some of the half moons or rose tails that have fins so large they can't swim. Folks routinely 'cull' the fry that seem runty or deformed or just not up to snuff (and this is not an attack on breeders...just a point)
Breeding larger critters has just as many inherent risks as breeding small. Giant breed dogs live markedly shorter lives, while teacup dogs have fragile skeletal systems. Why create Glofish? Because someone could, and did.
I suspect there are already people trying to breed mini bettas. With the same careful selection of the healthiest, most balanced small bettas over many, many years, they'll probably come up with one that is as healthy as the common veil tails are now, and just as different from their original ancestors.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I can agree with you, but the red text is what I would disagree with.

Smaller fish in this case will have more issues than giants since their immune systems will be small. Of course they are 100% different from human babies, but the concept is the same. Babies are more suseptible to sickness than adults. When fry are young, most of them die off because the whole "survival of the fittest" applies here most.

When an animal is smaller than usual, it is more suseptible to diseases. It's practically common sense. (this is not directed to you, but to whoever it may concern).

And in this case, fish are so suseptible to sicknesses since they are usually high maintenance. IMO there isn't a fish that's low maintainance. If you look at oscars and other big fish like arowanas, they are so much less likely to get a disease from bad conditions than a neon tetra. It just depends on how long it takes for the disease to spread through the fish. Oscars are huge so it would take longer and you have a better chance at keeping them alive and treating them meanwhile neons will not be able to fight it off too long.



Ramble said:


> Well, any type of selective breeding lends itself to the possibility of deformities. Take some of the half moons or rose tails that have fins so large they can't swim. Folks routinely 'cull' the fry that seem runty or deformed or just not up to snuff (and this is not an attack on breeders...just a point)
> *Breeding larger critters has just as many inherent risks as breeding small.* Giant breed dogs live markedly shorter lives, while teacup dogs have fragile skeletal systems. Why create Glofish? Because someone could, and did.
> I suspect there are already people trying to breed mini bettas. With the same careful selection of the healthiest, most balanced small bettas over many, many years, they'll probably come up with one that is as healthy as the common veil tails are now, and just as different from their original ancestors.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bettalover2033 said:


> I can agree with you, but the red text is what I would disagree with.
> 
> Smaller fish in this case will have more issues than giants since their immune systems will be small. Of course they are 100% different from human babies, but the concept is the same. Babies are more suseptible to sickness than adults. When fry are young, most of them die off because the whole "survival of the fittest" applies here most.
> 
> ...


 
The Filipino half of my family would argue that this is not true. They are just as healthy as us larger folk..... Also babies have not developed the immune system of an adult, it has nothing to do with their size.

Larger people have larger immune systems??? You are funny...

Jeff.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> The Filipino half of my family would argue that this is not true. They are just as healthy as us larger folk..... Also babies have not developed the immune system of an adult, it has nothing to do with their size.
> 
> Larger people have larger immune systems??? You are funny...
> 
> Jeff.


No way!! I wasnt saying that. I was basically saying that it would take longer for the sickness to travel through the body.

Like alcohol. A big person would not get drunk over 1 drink, but a really skinny person would get drunk faster because it would have less to travel through.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bettalover2033 said:


> No way!! I wasnt saying that. I was basically saying that it would take longer for the sickness to travel through the body.
> 
> Like alcohol. A big person would not get drunk over 1 drink, but a really skinny person would get drunk faster because it would have less to travel through.


But if it were true that smaller people were not as healthy as a big person, then small people would have died out long ago...

Natural selection is very unforgiving of unhealthy.

How come on islands, natural selection favors smaller animals? They have found skeletal remains of tiny horses and elephants on islands...

A smaller animal would have less germs/parasites to kill off by the bodies immune system.... Is just the same logic... Not based in truth however.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> But if it were true that smaller people were not as healthy as a big person, then small people would have died out long ago...
> 
> Natural selection is very unforgiving of unhealthy.
> 
> ...


I understand what you mean, but I never implied nor stated that a smaller person in healthier than a bigger person.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bettalover2033 said:


> I understand what you mean, but I never implied nor stated that a smaller person in healthier than a bigger person.
> 
> When an animal is smaller than usual, it is more suseptible to diseases. It's practically common sense.


You did not type this? Does not more suseptible to diseases mean less healthy? 

I kinda understand your point that the world can be harder on a smaller fish. It's why they have so many babies so that at least some will survive. But small fish like Bettas have good immunity to disease just as well as an Oscar. Small parasites may take longer to kill an oscar due to it's size, but then I doubt you will ever breed a Betta to be as small compared to regular size as the difference between a Betta and an oscar. It would take many years of selective breeding carefully weeding out those unhealthy fish (the same as if you were selectively breeding for large) before you obtained a significantly smaller Betta.

My point is only that selective breeding is just that, not breeding for deformities or misshaped fish with two heads or their butts just behind their ears... just selective breeding for smaller evenly proportinate healthy Bettas. It would be no different that selecting for longer fins, or larger fish. Just slowly selecting those fish that were smaller than their siblings.

Jeff.


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> How come on islands, natural selection favors smaller animals? They have found skeletal remains of tiny horses and elephants on islands...


This has NOTHING to do with anything. Smaller ADULT animals live much easier on smaller islands because food is generally SCARCE and smaller animals don't have to eat the same amount as larger animals. It was the same around the time the dinosaurs died. Larger ones died off first because they couldn't get food.



jeffegg2 said:


> I kinda understand your point that the world can be harder on a smaller fish. It's why they have so many babies so that at least some will survive. But small fish like Bettas have good immunity to disease just as well as an Oscar. Small parasites may take longer to kill an oscar due to it's size, but then I doubt you will ever breed a Betta to be as small compared to regular size as the difference between a Betta and an oscar. It would take many years of selective breeding carefully weeding out those unhealthy fish (the same as if you were selectively breeding for large) before you obtained a significantly smaller Betta.
> 
> My point is only that selective breeding is just that, not breeding for deformities or misshaped fish with two heads or their butts just behind their ears... just selective breeding for smaller evenly proportinate healthy Bettas. It would be no different that selecting for longer fins, or larger fish. Just slowly selecting those fish that were smaller than their siblings.
> 
> Jeff.


No, you are misunderstanding, we are not trying to say SMALL FISH IN GENERAL. We are trying to say that the smallest out of the spawn of the exact same species of fish (say a betta spawn) is generally not in the best shape evolution-wise. Their larger siblings out muscle them for food (and in mammalian litters, the smallest is cast off). While fish are born with an immune system, having healthy amounts of food will bolster it. It's the same with all species in this world. Like you said, the ONLY way it is possible for a runt of the litter to survive is if selective breeding comes into play, and even then, if you feed it well, it will eventually grow to full size... 

Not to mention, breeding the smallest male and female you find will not necessarily produce equally small fish. However if you just keep breeding the runts, you will end up with a whole plethora of problems. Evolutionarily unfit animals die for a reason.

Being a betta breeder doesn't make you a professional taxonomist, geneticist, or biologist :S


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## Ramble (Mar 13, 2012)

jeffegg2 said:


> My point is only that selective breeding is just that, not breeding for deformities or misshaped fish with two heads or their butts just behind their ears... just selective breeding for smaller evenly proportinate healthy Bettas. It would be no different that selecting for longer fins, or larger fish. Just slowly selecting those fish that were smaller than their siblings.
> 
> Jeff.


This. Careful selection over many generations would probably yield the same amount of healthy, smaller bettas as the breeding process for giants. 
As for other small animals, having worked in the vet field many years, the problem that we saw most at the hospital was not immune system problems, but BDLD...Big dog, Little dog- an affliction affecting little dogs whose attitudes pushed them to try and chase a big dog, resulting in bite wounds to the little dog. Perhaps mini bettas would have BBLB... :mrgreen:


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bahamut285 said:


> This has NOTHING to do with anything. Smaller ADULT animals live much easier on smaller islands because food is generally SCARCE and smaller animals don't have to eat the same amount as larger animals. It was the same around the time the dinosaurs died. Larger ones died off first because they couldn't get food.
> 
> 
> Being a betta breeder doesn't make you a professional taxonomist, geneticist, or biologist :S


So now you agree that Natural Selection *CAN* select the small over the large? I thought you said that the smaller would be picked on and die and would be less healthy? Now by using natural selection the smaller animal is better fit to survive? You contradict yourself again.... Nature can and does sometimes choose the smaller, so why can't selective breeding do the same thing? What happened to make all those grossly deformed smaller of the species survive when they are so unhealthy????

Also I have taken college courses in Zoology and Botany. How about you? Being a breeder does not make me stupid....And how does taxonomy enter into this exactly? Although I don't consider myself expert, I am well studied in all three of those fields...

Jeff.


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## Curlyfatbottom (Sep 29, 2011)

to much bsing on ns n health issue 
let just lay down the facts
betta dont stop growing until 7-12 month
breeding period 3 1/2-14 month
see the window of opening u have to work the mini
as a breeder its not worth the time n effort to create something that small to be kept alone


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## bahamut285 (Dec 10, 2010)

jeffegg2 said:


> So now you agree that Natural Selection *CAN* select the small over the large? I thought you said that the smaller would be picked on and die and would be less healthy? Now by using natural selection the smaller animal is better fit to survive? You contradict yourself again.... Nature can and does sometimes choose the smaller, so why can't selective breeding do the same thing? What happened to make all those grossly deformed smaller of the species survive when they are so unhealthy????
> 
> Also I have taken college courses in Zoology and Botany. How about you? Being a breeder does not make me stupid....And how does taxonomy enter into this exactly? Although I don't consider myself expert, I am well studied in all three of those fields...
> 
> Jeff.



NO, THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING AT ALL. OMG. This is *obviously *not getting through to you. I'm done.

For the record I double majored in Chemistry and Biology. I was going to go into Marine Biology but life changes denied me that choice.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

Jeff, I also have to add in...that perhaps RED LETTERING isn't the best way to get your "point" across.... >__> It just makes it look like you're yelling. >_>; 
Typing in regular, simple (calm), grammatically correct ways are better means of giving out your opinion.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Change it to blue. Lol


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Who is yelling?

it was admitted that natural selection can result in a smaller animal, which contradicts the statement that smaller animals are less apt to survive. I'm not the one that said that smaller animals have smaller immune systems... And I have made no personal attacks unlike those that said that because I am a breeder does not make me an expert in genetics. The logic of attacking the person making an argument to make less of the premise is flawed logic. Whether or not I am an expert does not make correct the assumption that smaller animals = not as healthy due to smaller animals having a smaller immune system. 

Pretty simple error in logic...  And red makes for good contrast.

Jeff.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I liked the red myself. It's easier to read.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

jeffegg2 said:


> Who is yelling?
> 
> it was admitted that natural selection can result in a smaller animal, which contradicts the statement that smaller animals are less apt to survive. I'm not the one that said that smaller animals have smaller immune systems... And I have made no personal attacks unlike those that said that because I am a breeder does not make me an expert in genetics. The logic of attacking the person making an argument to make less of the premise is flawed logic. Whether or not I am an expert does not make correct the assumption that smaller animals = not as healthy due to smaller animals having a smaller immune system.
> 
> ...


 +1


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

Guys this is getting out of hand!This person asked a question, we are supposed to answer it, to the best of our ability, yes a polite debate is good, but when the thread turns into a war of words the original question is completely forgotten!Jeff, typing in red letters will not get the point across more, it just annoys people.Furthermore, telling people they are not right will not help either.If you want to get a point across, it would be better to say your piece, show scientific fact behind it and yes, voice your opinion, but not in a way that others may find offending.

I do not mean to be rude to anyone, I just don't want the OP's question to be lost in a war of words!Especially when the arguments (seem to be) slowly drifting away from the thread topic!This applies to others too!

My *opinion* is that you WOULD be able to breed mini betta's!The size COULD be detromental to their health, but if controlled correctly it COULD work. To do this in a controlled way I believe you would have to continuously breed to find the healthiest "dwarf" betta possible, before repeating the process, to make another "dwarf". _*IF*_ and this is a BIG if!this was done, and perfected for a few generations, slowly downsizing each time, to try and prevent major deformities from sudden changes in the fish's bodies, then it MAY work!However as with everything there will come a point that the organs can get no smaller and you will end up with fish that are constantly sick, and that die at the slightest change! 

Comparing babies as a dwarf fish, cannot be valid, as nature intended babies to have smaller organs which WILL grow. In the end the "dwarf" fish will grow, but there will always be a limit because of their dna. 

Bringing up the topic of teacup dogs, this is an example of uncontrolled selective breeding, where people have bred because they look cute as small dogs!These people I do not believe factored in the health problems that this leaves the dogs with, and I personally could never back this sort of breeding.

Personally I do not think people should develop "mini betta's" as the health risks would be larger by far than the cuteness of the fish.

To the OP I understand that you do not wish to breed "mini betta's" that last comment was just my opinion for anyone who was thinking about it!

This is a good debate while it remains polite and friendly, but when it just turns into warfare that is when it becomes a BAD debate.

Again, I do not wish to be rude (etc.) I am just registering my opinions on the situation at hand!

Please note, some of these comments are opinion, others do have scientific fact behind them!


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

A little bit of debate is okay but the moment someone's feelings get hurt, it needs to stop. The OP's question was answered a while ago, I see, so any further debate is probably meaningless.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Sakura8 said:


> A little bit of debate is okay but the moment someone's feelings get hurt, it needs to stop. The OP's question was answered a while ago, I see, so any further debate is probably meaningless.


Yes the op's question was answered, but really we basically opened another debate for other questions to be answered. Whether we all agree or not, it's still civilized so IMO this is nothing too "mean." I think words can be exchanged better, but that's all.

We want to put our opinions through and see what others opinions are as well. This is giving us a better understanding of how we all think and such so there's nothing wrong with that.


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

BeckyFish97 said:


> Guys this is getting out of hand!This person asked a question, we are supposed to answer it, to the best of our ability, yes a polite debate is good, but when the thread turns into a war of words the original question is completely forgotten!Jeff, typing in red letters will not get the point across more, it just annoys people.Furthermore, telling people they are not right will not help either.If you want to get a point across, it would be better to say your piece, show scientific fact behind it and yes, voice your opinion, but not in a way that others may find offending.
> 
> I do not mean to be rude to anyone, I just don't want the OP's question to be lost in a war of words!Especially when the arguments (seem to be) slowly drifting away from the thread topic!This applies to others too!
> 
> ...


But smaller organs are possible! Look at the newborn fry, they have organs that are almost too small to see. I don't understand the premise that smaller bred fish would squish larger organs over a smaller fish?


Oh well....
Jeff.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

As long as no one's feelings get hurt, talk away.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

*Becky, this is the point I was trying to get across.

Jeff, no disrespect, but I felt like you were switching my words around and I pushing in unneeded info and comments that threw me off a bit of my point. I never said nor implied that bettas would have smaller immune systems. As well as I never said nor implied that smaller beings are less healthy than big ones. Just that the sickness would take less time to travel through the fish's body if it was small than if it was big.

Was this more understandable?*



BeckyFish97 said:


> Guys this is getting out of hand!This person asked a question, we are supposed to answer it, to the best of our ability, yes a polite debate is good, but when the thread turns into a war of words the original question is completely forgotten!Jeff, typing in red letters will not get the point across more, it just annoys people.Furthermore, telling people they are not right will not help either.If you want to get a point across, it would be better to say your piece, show scientific fact behind it and yes, voice your opinion, but not in a way that others may find offending.
> 
> I do not mean to be rude to anyone, I just don't want the OP's question to be lost in a war of words!Especially when the arguments (seem to be) slowly drifting away from the thread topic!This applies to others too!
> 
> ...


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

bettalover2033 said:


> *Becky, this is the point I was trying to get across.
> 
> Jeff, no disrespect, but I felt like you were switching my words around and I pushing in unneeded info and comments that threw me off a bit of my point. I never said nor implied that bettas would have smaller immune systems. As well as I never said nor implied that smaller beings are less healthy than big ones. Just that the sickness would take less time to travel through the fish's body if it was small than if it was big.
> 
> Was this more understandable?*


Sorry if you felt offended... But take that premise. Time for sickness to travel through a body. Doesn't this imply that a smaller fish would be less apt to survive an illness? So smaller fish would be less likely to survive the natural selection process? It would just seem to follow what you are saying, that's all.

On the other hand, My premise is that all fish having the same resistance to immunity, the smaller fish would have less infection to fight off. So all things equal out.

Jeff.


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## MaisyDawgThirteen (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't understand how this has gotten out of hand - it just seems like a good debate to me. 

I think posting in different colours is just Jeff's style. lol


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

I think complaining about the color of text someone uses is kind of silly.


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

As long as I can read it. Which means no yellow. I can't even begin to read yellow.


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## Creat (Dec 6, 2010)

I think if done humanly dwarf betta would be cute and i would be interested however it would be a life project at the least. No one should breed malformed fish or abuse them to be smallee by stunting. But if one ended up naturally being smaller that would be where to start.... just my 2cents.... heres hoping i dont get shunned


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## Sakura8 (May 12, 2011)

I know there are "bonsai" koi being developed, koi who are selected because they genetically stay smaller than other koi so they are bred to produce this line. But I believe this line of koi is being developed in conjuction with geneticists at UC Davis.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

Okay I see where it got confusing.
Also I felt in no way offended.

Yes this implies that a smaller fish would be less likely to survivec a disease or sickness, but this is only if the fish(in this case) actually gets the disease. Also it doesn't mean that it's a definite that they are going to die or live.

Also I never said that smaller fish would just not survive he natural selection process. They may or may not. As we all know with sicknesses our immune systems get better and build up.

Also all fish IMO don't have the same resistance. If you have a source that proves all fish have the same resistance, I'd be happy to read it and better knowledge myself.




jeffegg2 said:


> Sorry if you felt offended... But take that premise. Time for sickness to travel through a body. *Doesn't this imply that a smaller fish would be less apt to survive an illness*? *So smaller fish would be less likely to survive the natural selection process?* It would just seem to follow what you are saying, that's all.
> 
> *On the other hand, My premise is that all fish having the same resistance to immunity, the smaller fish would have less infection to fight off.* So all things equal out.
> 
> Jeff.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Sakura8 said:


> As long as I can read it. Which means no yellow. I can't even begin to read yellow.


Yellow is hard for me to read against the light blue background of this page.


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## finnfinnfriend (Feb 3, 2012)

Creat said:


> I think if done humanly dwarf betta would be cute and i would be interested however it would be a life project at the least. No one should breed malformed fish or abuse them to be smallee by stunting. But if one ended up naturally being smaller that would be where to start.... just my 2cents.... heres hoping i dont get shunned


+1


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## PaintingPintos (Dec 27, 2011)

I've got this guys....
My dream job is to be a scientist, like a genetic engineer
I want to poke around with DNA, and make horses with antlers (it's just a cool idea!) and 8 foot tall sheep. And purple goldfish. And domestic cats that grow up to 5 feet long. But not with all the painful breeding and culling and sorts. I reassemble some DNA and -boom- mini fishie 
Many people like small animals because they're just adorable and more appealing. At PetSmart when I see a baby betta in bad condition my heart just melts because I feel so terrible for it....but yes, the only mini thing I do not like is mini horses. Either it's riding size, or Breyer size.
Oh, and I also want to engineer horses to be the size of Traditional Breyers.....yup.
But the first step is to overcome the huge problems with that sort of "jumping".....health problems and diseases. Once I eliminate those, onto the market they go 
Yes, I know what hard work it is to be a genetic engineer, blea, blah, bleeee, bla, blah, bleh, don't even get me started on a rant now!


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## BeckyFish97 (Apr 9, 2012)

jeffegg2 said:


> But smaller organs are possible! Look at the newborn fry, they have organs that are almost too small to see. I don't understand the premise that smaller bred fish would squish larger organs over a smaller fish?
> 
> 
> Oh well....
> Jeff.


 
I'm not contesting the fact that smaller organs are possible, because everything is possible, what I am saying is that newborn fry ARE born with tiny organs which grow, YES smaller organs are possible in smaller fish, the point I was trying to get across is that you can shrink a betta and its organs but it would take a lot of time, money, AND there would come a point when the fish would just not survive because the organs got so small!I'm not sure what I said to make you think that I thought breeding a smaller fish would mean that the organs would stay the same size and be squished up into the fish's body. Also you say about fry, platy fry cant be moved out of water in a net untill they are at least a week old, because the stress on their organs litterally blow up their insides!(gross I know)


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## jeffegg2 (Apr 5, 2012)

finnfinnfriend said:


> is it possible to breed mini bettas since it's possible to breed giants? I personally think that would be really cool and adorable and I'm pretty sure many people would agree ....


Well now we have decided that it is indeed possible because anything is possible!!!

The biggest obstacle is, well, no one wants to do it! So if you want mini Betta's, you'll have to do it yourself.

Jeff.


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## youlovegnats (Feb 23, 2011)

dramaqueen said:


> I think complaining about the color of text someone uses is kind of silly.


Think of it as a teacher writing a BIG RED "F" on a student's paper. Using the color red insinuates (from my point of view) that person using it has some kind of pent up energy (usually anger or disapproval). 
So sorry for being "silly", but in the real world, that's how it works.


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## dramaqueen (Jul 7, 2008)

Thank you for the explanation.


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## bettalover2033 (Feb 17, 2010)

I guess we have only decided not to do it because we believe that it will take much time and money to do so. Maybe the scientists that have studied bettas before can work on this.

It was a very interesting topic to talk about and many opinions have been exchanged, I think this was a great thread. I respect the opinions of everyone else, but will stick by my own as well as some others' opinions at we're stated here.



jeffegg2 said:


> Well now we have decided that it is indeed possible because anything is possible!!!
> 
> The biggest obstacle is, well, no one wants to do it! So if you want mini Betta's, you'll have to do it yourself.
> 
> Jeff.


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