# Orange OHM x Cellophane HM



## Maddybelle

Figured it was about time to start my spawn log: the pair has been in the spawn tank since Saturday. I was really worried that they wouldn't spawn. But, sometime in the wee hours of the morning, the female jumped out of the glass tube. Let the bubble blowing commence! She's a very good mom so far; helping dad build the bubble nest, and she's collecting the eggs without eating ANY! So far the bubble nest is very small, yet somehow holding the eggs. :shock: 
Anyway, here's the proud parents:


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## rubinthebetta

Great! I can't wait to see how the fry turn out.


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## logisticsguy

Very nice couple Maddybelle. You will have to post some pics of the fry. I have a female HM that looks like your girls sister.


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## Maddybelle

Thanks guys! I'll be posting updates regularly. I'm really happy with this pair. The male is from petco, and the female is from a breeder in Florida. They both have very good caudals, toplines, and decent dorsals. I love the male's color, and the female's father was very similar to him. (Her mom was a white dragon) The only real problem with this pairing is the iridescence on the female. The male also has some, but its much more noticable on her.
I'm expecting orange, yellow, cellophane, and maybe some reds from this spawn.


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## dramaqueen

Very nice pair. Good luck with the spawn.


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## indjo

Hope all goes well. Good luck raising the fry . . . the real fun begins!


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## Maddybelle

I has fry!! They are so tiny! Poor Quasar is going crazy trying to keep everybody in the now HUGE nest. I used one of those big cups that iced tea comes in at McDonalds: the nest has now expanded out of the cup, and is preceding to conquer the rest of the tank. He even has a small "just for fun" nest on the other side of the tank. I'm so happy this pair has worked out well so far. =)


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## Maddybelle

Some fry are already starting to swim on their own. Quasar's bubble nest now takes up almost 1/3 of the 16 gal spawn tub. 0_o
Here's my tub:








Its a 16 gal rubbermaid bin that I used to breed snails in. It has a sponge filter (waiting to turn it on until fry are free swimming), a heater set to 83*-84*, lots of plants, both live and silk. I'm planning to leave dad with the fry as long as possible, I'm basically just playing it by ear.
Here are some pics of Quasar's supernest - its gotten even bigger since I took these:








Just for reference, the cup is a large iced tea cup from McDonalds.








Sorry for the sucktacular quality. My phone is being stubborn, LOL.


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## tanseattle

That is a wow bubble nest


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## Viva

Bubble nests for days, lol!


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## Junglist

Nice color pattern reminds me of a Orange Creamsicle lol, Hope all goes well


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## Maddybelle

The fry are now free swimming! I got a little panicky when I couldn't see any babies, but I found them hiding in the GOBS of floating plants I've got in there. 
It was really sad to see that amazing bubblenest collapse when Quasar was done with it. Just glad I got some pictures! =)
Quasar is still being the model dad. Depending on how this spawn works out, I might to a respawn with this pair. Also depending on how the fry turn out, I'm planning on sending a few to the IBC shows next season. Actually, Id probably go, too, if I can find one close enough! 
Going off of the IBC standards (current as of 2008, have they changed at all?) Quasar would be classified as metalic orange. The standard says he should look like an orange crayon. Well, that's my boy! And Solstice is just a cellophane with too much irridescence, but her form makes up for it. I wish she would hold still for a photo! She's gotten bigger, and her fins have grown out beautifully. She has great balance.
Viva - My newest betta looks just like the one in your pic, except he has turqouise instead of copper!


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## Maddybelle

The babies had their first feeding of walter worms today - I was worried that the worms would be too big, but the fry went nuts! Dad even caught himself a few. I've also got vinegar eels for some variety. =) Just waiting for those to reproduce some more.


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## Maddybelle

I have pics of fry! These guys are now 5 days old
























Sorry for the blurry pics, my phone is having a hard time focussing on something so small and wiggly! =)


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## Maddybelle

Happy Halloween! Sorry to be posting so much, but I thought I'd just show y'all the female's father, and outline my plans for creating my orange HM line. So, here's Gramps:









I'm planning on seeing how much iridescence these fry end up with, and probably inbreeding those with the best form, color, and least irid for 2-3 generations, then outcrossing to a DT to improve dorsal base. I'd die of excitement if I could get one of Karen Macauley's reds to put some really great fins on my fish, but thats probably just a daydream, LOL.

Little did I know when I saw that little orange "delta" at petco, that I would be embarking on such a journey!

BTW, dad is still in with the fry, and doing an awesome job.


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## vilmarisv

Seems you have long road ahead of you!
Congrats on the fry! Now is when the work, worrying, and fun actually begin. 
To our disspointment, Karen is not breeding reds  I wanted to grab one from her when she did that spawn over a year ago but she only got a few out of them and has moved on since. 
If you're lucky enough to get anything from Karen, shoot for a female. Hers have very strong characteristics that show very well on the fry. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait until next year for that. 
Watch you ammonia very closely. The plants will help but that makes a big difference between weak and strong fry. 
Best of luck!!


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## ravenwinds

I have Soltice's sister...and brother...and cousin from previous spawn. I have spawned the cousin, a pretty yellow platinum (you see a lot of mom's dragon scale covering about half of her pale yellow) with a turqoise blue HM from Thailand....they are 2weeks old at present and growing every day! I hope you and your babies the best of luck!


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## Maddybelle

Awesome ravenwinds! Do you have pics of her sister and brother? The pics Angela put on their AB listings were when they were relly young, so it was hard seeing their form well. I'm glad I got her, she was the last one left! As she's gotten bigger, her tail and anal have grown out: her branching is now better, and her anal has stayed nice and even.


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## ravenwinds

I have some pics of cousin, but haven't taken any of brother and sister yet. I know it was difficult to see what they would be with the young pics Angela had. It was easier after I had cousin, then I knew what I was getting 
I'll try to get pics up of all of them soon


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## tpocicat

Your fry look wonderful!


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## Maddybelle

Haha, Quasar gave me quite a scare today. He's been doing great with his fry, which are now 1 week old and growing fast. I went in to check on everybody, and I didn't see any fry! I thought that the little stinker had gobbled up Junior, but turns out they were cruising around the bottom, noming on walter worms. Whew!
On a slightly related note, I'm going to order Golden Pearls for these babies. I need to know what size to get: something that they can eat now, but that won't be too tiny next week. I'd hate most of a 1/4 lb bag to go to waste. Do these things even have a shelf life? I don't plan on spawning again for another 4-5 months, and I'd hate for them to spoil.


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## ravenwinds

I get golden pearls from sam8ps ( I think that's correct) off of aquabid...go for the size that isn't powdered...you can always put some in another bag and rolling pin it to powder! This seller doesn't have much in the way of pellets but ALL my fish go nuts for his blend which is very powdery in its own right so it coat betta pellets in it so they can go nuts, too! 
I don't know if they have a shelf life, but they are as reasonably priced as all his other foods and so everyone gets a treat of golden pearls...seems to really pick the girls up after spawning. My blue and gold gouramis which are approximately 6mos old really Hoover up all the little powdery bits of food which was kinda a surprise since they are so large...smallest being about 2.5inches of pure fish ( not much in the way of flowing fins like their beloved cousins).
Hope that helps a bit, maddybelle. Turquoise, the papa of your babies cousins, gave me the same scare...thought they disappeared into his belly when really they had about doubled in size and were surfing the top in between clusters of dwarf water lettuce...most were so white they blended in with the fuzz on the plants and the very light green roots! And Turquoise is just hanging out looking at me like "you were thinking bad things about me, weren't you!"


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## Maddybelle

LOL, poor Quasar just looked so offended when I accused him of eating his kids (yeah, I talk to my fish). He has gotten so BRIGHT living in the fry tank. I guess lots of really good food, 83* water, gobs of live plants, IAL, and 9 gallons of swimming space (mostly horizontal) really do make for a happy betta! 
Do you think that the 200-300 micron size would work?


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## ravenwinds

Probably would.

Don't worry, I talk to my fish too...and I have 14 adult bettas! Not to mention the community tanks of gouramis, Cory cats, guppies, mollies, tetras, and other assorted aquatic life. So far, only the bettas and 4 gouramis (original trio of my blue/gold/opaline gouramis + 1 poor dwarf fire gourami) "talk" back...LOL

Yeah, I see that too...like a carry over from getting so BRIGHT to attract a female...if they don't eat their babies, they just get happier, I think...I am sure all the extras of food and space help, but I also think of it as the reverse maternity/new mother glow (if that makes any sense).


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## Maddybelle

I think that "daddy depression", when the male gets mopey after he's removed, is a definite sign theat we're doing something wrong. My1 week old babies are easily as big as some of the 3 week olds I've seen. I think having Dad there to weed out the weeker ones leaves more food and room for the stronger fry. That, and there's just something magical about watching Quasar and the fry swimming around in the naturalistic tub. I tried to get it as close to a miniature pond as I could. Lots of live plants, IAL, and snails to clean up extra food and the rare dead fry.


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## Maddybelle

*Warning - massive pic spam!*

The babies are now 1.5 weeks old. Finally got some half-decent pics of the little guys!


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## Maddybelle

My instant brine shrimp and Golden Pearls should arrive in the next day or two. Yippee! I think they'll appreciate some variety.


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## vilmarisv

So adorable!


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## Maddybelle

Haha, I know! I sat in front of the tub for 2 hours one night, just watching them. They're 11 days old today, and they're starting to get playful. Its so cute watching them chase each other around, and then dad comes swimming through and they scatter, like "we weren't horsing around! honest!"

Unfortunately, I've contracted ramshorns. A very annoying PTD (plant transmitted disease) I'm squishing the little buggers left and right! Luckily, the juvie apple snails I've get in the fry tub LOVE squished ramshorn for breakfast!

Quick question to anyone who's done this before - about how big are they supposed to be at 11 days?


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## ravenwinds

Those pics are great! Darling little guys! I hate ramshorns as well but all my planted tanks have them...Old Fish Lady says they are good for ecosystem of the Natural Planted Tank, NPT, which are what all, except 2 of my tanks, are...she also like pond snails, I just can't reconcile that pond snails ( and my ramshorns) eat my plants! Rams aren't supposed to eat them but I always find the babies and juvies on my stem plants and crypts and the next thing I know, there are holes in the leaves...not to mention rams make those thick and hard egg sacs....they don't look like pond snail spit and they don't look like they would let enough light through them to the plant leaves and, if left alone will practically encase each leaf in their egg sacs....can't imagine much photosynthesis takes place!
Sorry for the rant 
Even though I have bred before, I don't know how big the fry should be at eleven days, I just know they double in size within a few days and keep growing....think I don't want to put living organisms into "they should be..." boxes...I am just concerned that they keep growing and that radical differences in sizes don't occur since this would indicate that one or a few were excreting to much of the "don't grow!" hormone and that I wasn't on top of keeping it diluted enough (or out completely).


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## Maddybelle

Thanks ravenwinds! I took over 50 pictures, and these are the only ones that made the cut.
Due to a slight miscalculation on my part, turns out that the fry are actually 13 days old: they will be 2 weeks tomorrow (Wednesday) Oops!


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## vilmarisv

Why have you decided to keep the male with the fry this long?

** Nevermind, I just read your reason. 
When do you plan to take him out?


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## Maddybelle

I'm planning to leave him in there until jarring. That is, as long as he behaves himself, LOL.


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## indjo

If dad behaves when fry are small, he should do so until they are big. Just don't let him see a female when fry reach 1cm. Sometimes they make new bubble nest and try to protect it . . . killing junior (not always).

Congrats and keep up the good work.


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## Maddybelle

The fry turned 2 weeks old today! They're ahead of the curve, at 7-9 mm each. Bettatalk lists 2 week olds as averaging about 6 mm. Gee, I must be doing something right! There seems to be about 75-100 fry at this point, but its hard to get an accurate count. Dad's still doing very well with the fry. I've kept a pretty hands-off approach with this spawn, since I'm pretty busy with school.


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## Maddybelle

I'm having a quandary. I'm debating keeping this line going as orange, or to start breeding mustard gas. Has anyone ever seen an orange MG? Like, blue body, orange fins with black edging? I like orange, but I LOVE mustard gas. Just a thought at this point. And how would I do this without having to start over?


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## vilmarisv

Yes. They pop up on AB from time to time. 
You would have to wait for your fry to be close to two months to figure out if they carry the coloring... they might surprise you.


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## Maddybelle

Haha, yep, I'm expecting the unexpected with this spawn - working with petco genetics should pose a nice challenge.


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## Maddybelle

15 days old - The fry just had their first meal of 200-300 micron Golden Pearls and Instant BBS. They LOVED it! I was a bit worried that they wouldn't eat it since it didn't wiggle, but they had no problems what so ever. The snails went after them, too. I don't think I've ever seen a snail move so fast! 0_o

Quick question: What color comes in first? Where does it first show up, and when?


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## dramaqueen

I've seen dragons with blue bodies and red orange fins at Petsmart.


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## Maddybelle

Does anyone know what would happen if I crossed orange to black?

And are dragons still classified as light bodied bicolor, or has the IBC added a class for them ?


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## moonsand0wls

Very pretty parents!! Your fry are going to look amazing when they're older  Congratulations!


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## Maddybelle

Thanks moonsand0wls! I'm hoping to enter the new breeder class in the IBC shows for 2013.


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## moonsand0wls

Oh, good luck for you, this one will surely be a pretty strain 
And then if you're looking to strengthen the strain you can breed a brother and a sister. It will be good.

Good luck


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## Maddybelle

Yep, I'm planning to inbreed for 2 generations, then outcross to a yellow or orange HMPK. May outcross sooner, depending on the outcome of this spawn.


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## ravenwinds

The first color you'll see on your fry will be iridescence if they have it.On my orange dalmations it was iridescence for fry that had it, then the pale orange body colors, and last to show up was the rusty red-orange on fins, or darker red-orange if they were Cambodian reds. For the few that had some red shading on bodies, that showed about same time as full fin color came in...right around 3mos.

I have a blue dragon w/orange-red fins female HM....gorgeous coloring! Bought her from Taebetta or siruit betta (sp?)...can't remember off top of head....out of Thailand.

You know...your spawn might include some clear yellows...wonder if they would be good match for bicolor yellow/black (mg...inaccurate name for this color since mg have a greenish grey body with mustard yellow fins...the guy who bred and named MG has requested people not use name MG for any bicolor yellow...so out of respect for another breeder, I try not to use that name ...sorry for being long-winded ...
That being said, I do like the "mg" with orange fins and blackish body.


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## Maddybelle

So, I guess that I won't be seeing much in the way of color for a few weeks at least. Bummer!

Ah, well, there is good news! We officially have dorsal fins! So excited. My babies are growing up!

When should I look for ventrals? I'll be so relieved once they come in: I'm a little worried, since they only had walter worms for the first 2 weeks, and they seem to hang out on the bottom a lot.


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## Maddybelle

My stupid walter worm culture crashed! Honestly, I think it was more user error, but the babies seem to prefer the instant BBS anyway. Also, just went to petsmart and got 4 adult glass (grass, ghost, these guys have so many names!) shrimp. So far, so good! I got them as a cleaner cleanup crew. I love my snails, but they poop A LOT!


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## Maddybelle

So I haven't found any deformed fry yet, but today I did find a really tiny one. He's the size of a 1 week old, if that. I've named him Tiny, and he's floating in a cup in the spawn tank so I can feed him separately and give him some extra attention. Other than his unusual lack of growth, he seems like a perfectly normal fry. Who knows, maybe he'll make it and grow up to be Best in Show and father (or mother) many fry! He just seems like a male to me, but I'm probably way wrong, LOL. Fingers crossed!


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## indjo

@Maddybelle: It is said that red, orange, and yellow will eventually fade and thus must be crossed to other colors in order to enhance those colors. This cross is IMO still a trial-error thing because there is no definite cross that will ensure certain results. Many breeders cross them to black. Since black is recessive it should be easier to breed out compared to crossing with anything containing irids. F1 is usually dirty - lots of black and irids showing. But breeding the most orange/yellow should return them to cleaner solids.

IDK IBC's classification on dragons. But I do know that yellow is easier to achieve in dragons. Dragons seem to reflect more yellow than in regular colors. By crossing to red dragons (not the perfectly clean red drg, but the ones that shows white rays), eventually you will have metallic yellow/orange, yellow/orange drg, gold, and other colors.

BTW, congrats and keep up the good work.


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## Maddybelle

Unfortunately, I had to pull Quasar from the fry tank tonight. He was chasing the babies a bit too much for my liking, and was determined to make the shrimpies into dinner. Luckily, I was able to get some nice pics while he was flaring at Solstice.
















My boy's done some growing up in the last 3 weeks!


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## ravenwinds

Very nice pics! He is gorgeous...such nice clean lines and wow! on the fins...so nice and even! He does look like he has grown, filled out more. I just can't get over how huge and even is fins are! Nice to see an anal Fin that has remained in proportion to rest of fins and that isn't noticeably darker in color than other fins. Lately, on aquabid, the anal fin is all I notice as it's so much longer; it not only sweeps the floor, the anal fins has grown an extra couple of centimeters past the bottom edge of caudal fin. And it's so dark; for example, if the betta is marked as a lavender salamander HM, the body is pale lavender, the dorsal, caudal, and ventral fins look like a blue over red that has been whitewashed, but the anal fin is dark purple or dark blue over red. 
That stinks that you had to pull him out...at least you got to see what a great dad he was!


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## Maddybelle

Yeah, I've noticed the crazy anals on AB, too! Even the females seem to have that problem. I'm so glad I found this guy, and then spent weeks looking on AB 3 times a day for a female that would work. 

Even Karen Macauley said she liked him, so I must be on to something! LOL. Just goes to show that there are little gems just sitting on store shelves, you just have to find them.


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## Maddybelle

If anyone is interested in a baby or two (or more), PM me. They'll be very reasonably priced, since dad's genes are such an unknown.

These guys will be 3 weeks old Wednesday. They're so cute! I can see their little anal fins now.


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## Sena Hansler

I wish I could have some of your fry :lol: Dad is beautiful!

And I know what you mean about gems. I love my Candy (crowntail female) but I need to find a male crowntail with a LOT better finnage, to counteract hers.

And yes, since you are on my spawn thread, I am on yours


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## Maddybelle

LOL, Sena. I wish shipping to Canada wasn't so darn hard. I'd have to ship Express to avoid the poor things sitting in a box for 10 days, and that costs about $50.

I think folks have just gottem too wrapped up in the pet store fish predjudice. If you know what to look for, you can find some very nice fish.

You are always welcome on my spawn thread! =D


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## Maddybelle

By some miracle of the fishy gods, my walter worm culture is back with a vengeance! So, who can guess what the fry had for dinner, LOL. The sides of the culture container are still covered in a solid mass of worms, even after I fed the kids until there were a few I was sure would pop!


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## Sena Hansler

:lol: I know. I had a hard time with shipping within Canada - let alone across the border... Which is why I don't have AB fishies.

LOL bettas are piggies even at that age.


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## Maddybelle

If I wasn't on the other side of the continent, I'd bring you a pair! 

I swear I have Tardis fish - bigger on the inside. How do these tiny fry fit so much food into their tummies!?! Luckily I have a now overflowing worm culture, 1/4 lb of golden pearls, and my jar of instant BBS which is deceptively small. I try to keep food in front of them almost all the time. A tricky balance to keep between not enough and way too much.


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## Maddybelle

Well, Tiny has been back with his brothers and sisters for an entire day. I've seen him twice, and he seems to be eating. He's very good at hiding, and seems to be very determined to make it.

Staccato Mamba continues to be very cute and very large. I think I see the very beginnings of some red/orange color on him, but maybe that's just wishful thinking and the fact that its 2 am here.


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## ravenwinds

A couple my babies are showing their mom's iridescence heritage already...she's the yellow platinum dragon cousin of your mama. Of course, dad has it too...turquoise as he is!


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## Sena Hansler

Can't wait to see them when they are older!!!


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## Maddybelle

3.5 weeks - I tried to get some pictures today, but my cellphone camera just will not cooperate. Tiny is still tiny, but eating and he seems to be growing. Stacato Mamba is still a little piggy. I bought a tub of earthworms for my frog, Spot, and got some lovely little whiteworms in there as well, so the babies got a couple of those for dinner. They are a pain in the butt to harvest, though! It was so funny, the smaller babies were the ones going after the biggest worms. How can such a tiny little fish fit such a bit worm inside? Still no color. I'm starting to wonder if I got a spawn of 75+ cellophanes!


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## Sena Hansler

I fed some of my largest thawed bloodworms so I know what you mean about the little fellas snacking on the biggest worms :lol: maybe you did get cellophone? This'll be interesting!!


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## Maddybelle

So its day 24, and I'm just now starting to see a little bit of color on my biggest fry. Looks kinda orangey-red, so yay! And some of the bigger ones are breathing air!


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## ravenwinds

It is so cool to watch them turn into bettas! Yay, some orange color and starting air breathe!

I was on aquabid last couple of days...seller Blimp33 had some yellows and oranges...one looked just like Quazar (sp?), your spawn's daddy! And another one was a more saturated, brighter orange (not as bright as bettascapes newest acquisitions)...I wanted him so bad...but I was a good girl and didn't buy him....though I still wish I did


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## Sena Hansler

Awesome to hear! Kinda neat our spawns are close together too


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## Maddybelle

Ravenwinds - I saw Blimp's gorgeouse boys: I'm thinking of getting one to outcross to. 

The babies seem larger every time I turn around! They had cyclops for dinner last night. Most just spit it out, but I think they'll like them once they get used to them. I'm now feeding walter worms, instant BBS, golden pearls, whiteworms, cyclops, and vinegar eels when I feel up to messing with them.


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## ravenwinds

Your babies should get huge on such a diverse diet! 
Mine get banana worms, vinegar eels, golden pearls...that's about it unless they're still picking through the infusoria. I've been thinking of starting daphnia but haven't wanted to go through what seems like a hassle...having a home for them and growing green water as well...but one of the live food guys on aquabid, who lives in Oregon as well, described his setup for daphnia etc...he uses a bucket. Anyway, after reading his information, I am getting closer to choosing to do it 
Wouldn't Cyclops have a similar set-up? How do you raise them?


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## Maddybelle

I use frozen cyclops, actually. I've wanted to try raising daphnia as well, but all my usable tanks/containers and equipment are currently in use, and I'm out of funds at the moment. My outdoor snail breeding tubs are full of greenwater, so no problem there!
My babies have noticeably colored up since last night - seeing what looks to me to be red, orange, and possibly faint yellow. I was worried because they seemed to be falling behind the growth curve last week, but I think I've got them bach on track, maybe a little bit ahead again.


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## Maddybelle

Prepare to be inundated with pictures of adorable fishy babies!! These were taken at 24 days old.


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## Sena Hansler

Daphnia I find lives without my help. A tank with live plants and low filtration (maybe a bubbler), give the warm water, and they swarm! My babies had daphnia and infusoria for the first bit.

Cute babies!


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## Maddybelle

26 days - Staccato Mamba is showing some red/orange color! Tiny is still the smallest fry by far, but is growing slowly but surely. I found the most adorable fry with 1 eye: his name is now Stormageddon. I had to cull a fry with a spinal deformity and swim bladder issues. He just couldn't swim or catch food, and I knew the shrimp would eat him eventually. I'm feeding the fry a little bit 5-6 times a day, switching it up between my numerous foods. I'm having to give my walter worm culture a rest to recuperation. I'm feeding very sparingly from my whiteworms until their population is more substantial. And I STILL haven't gotten the hang of harvesting the vinegar eels.


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## Sena Hansler

One eye? That's interesting! Wish that little fella luck - and you too of course!


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## ravenwinds

It is always hard to cull fry but when you know they are in pain or can't live regularly or for long (the only time I cull because you can usually find someone to take the "unique" or "special" ones) it makes it easier to know you are being humane...

I have never seen frozen Cyclops available locally, of course we have just the basics.

I just found a 4-5mos old Mollie fry with only one eye...strange because I just found him 3days ago! On a related note: my 20g Mollie tank is shared 4-5 adult green/bronze Cory cats....well 5weeks ago, they spawned on front glass of tank...about 15days ago, the last of eggs disappeared so I kept watch and have been finding new Cory fry everyday...count is up to 9 fry about 1/2inch right now....and, last night, I found that cories have spawned again!....they have eggs on every wall and in every corner of tank 

Those pics are darling! Did you find that more of your fry were that light, almost pure white w/regular eyes (not red/pink)? Most of my spawn by Lemon (cousin of your mama) and Turquoise are very light, color of skim milk...my orange Dalmatian fry were a light grey.

All my tanks/bowls are full now, and likewise I am low on $ so a Daphnia tank will have to wait. And I don't have a planted tank without a filter yet as all my NPT still in newer stage requiring some kind of filtration...oh, well, maybe soon


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## Maddybelle

I've found several "unique" fry in this spawn. Also, I've started having problems with swim bladder, so I've had to cut back on feeding the GP. High protein foods like GP can mess with they're swim bladder, so I've been told. These guys still seem able to swim, just a little bit differently. They can certainly compete with the "normal" fry at feeding time! 

And yes, most of my fry are that milky white color, some with black eyes like dad, and some with iridescent eyes like mom. Some are more transparent, and I can see that I'm going to have some very nice vibrant reds. Most fry only have color on their fins at this point.


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## ravenwinds

About half mine have black eyes and the other half will have the iridescent eyes. It s funny that when my orange dalmations showed iridescence, then the pale orange and a,couple were turning into cellophanes but body colours came first ...then fins began to darken; became a darker and more substantial but still pale orange. The darker red-orange colors showed up last; red fins on cambodian then the red-orange spots were last!

I didn't know that about GP , but I only feed them GP about 3 times a week. Vinegar eels are easy: put funnel in a clean jar or glass (i use a solo plastic cup from a cold drink at espresso stand. Put a coffee filter inside funnel. Take vinegar eels and pour about a cup into cup (without funnel) then pour cup back into eel's home. Put funnel w/filter in glass, then pour mildly mixed (from the cup pouring) into filter in funnel, to the top. Let fluid empty into glass, then put fluid back in eel home. The eels are now on filter. I rinse cup w/water and fill it about 1/2 to 3/4 and put vinegar eel filter in cup and swish around. Then pour water w/vinegar eels in it into grow-out tank.


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## Maddybelle

32 days old - these guys are getting big! The ones that have the swim bladder issues are slowly improving - hopefully I caught it in time. They're starting to chase each other and nip. Nothing major, and I don't think its really anything out of the ordinary. I got some new fish food today -at Omega One Freshwater Flakes. I wanted to get the adults some flakes to add more variety, and to try giving to the babies. The fry love it! It was on sale at petsmart, and the first 6 ingredients are whole salmon, halibut, black cod, whole herring, whole shrimp, and whole krill.


----------



## ravenwinds

That's really good food for store bought. I feed them that, New Life, and the very fresh feasts prepared by sam8ps....and of course the very very fresh foods: frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, and Live worms, and in summer, mosquito larvae.


----------



## Maddybelle

So these guys turned 5 weeks on Wednesday. I really need to start doing more water changes - the biggest fry are 1 inch already, and the smallest are about 0.5 inches. Anywho, picture time!!!

























Please excuse the specs on the surface of the water, I had just fed them their evening flakes.


----------



## ravenwinds

Oh! They are so cute! You should be proud.....you're doing a great job!


----------



## Maddybelle

I'v done things a bit different than most folks. These little darlings are now living with their mom, and they've adopted 4 teenaged feeder guppy fry that were living with one of my males.


----------



## DragonFyre14

Cute, can't wait to see how the babies turn out!


----------



## ravenwinds

Me too! After all, until yesterday when I moved things around to accommodate 4 New bettas from Thailand (a pair of gold copper gases HM and a pair of red dragon monsters HM), I had 2 unrelated adult females, one of which tore a male of my almost to pieces...really shred him up but he's fine now...anyway these 2 girls were in a 5gallon relatively unplanted tank together.
And I have community tank with 3 spot gouramis and a betta, another tank with guppies of all ages and a very full finnaged HM male!
And my orange Dalmatian HMs still live together even though they are adults and they're 2 alpha males.

I honestly think that many people try too hard to separate bettas into their own individual tanks and that lots of fish can be placed together if you use just a modicum of sense and watch things carefully! Of course, I also think that everyone has a different approach and it is ok for that as well.


----------



## Maddybelle

Ooo, orange dal HMs! I demand pictures.
I've tried my best to provide a relatively natural setting for my fry. In the wild, they wouldn't be isolated from other fish, and I think that the sooner the kids get used to other critters, the better they will tolerate them later. LOL, you should see how curious my fry are about their mom. There'll be 30 of them just sitting there, staring at her, and she's like, "Meh."


----------



## ravenwinds

She's probably glad she doesn't have to breast feed them!
I am really bad about pics...haven't updated my albums in forever! The orange dalmation proud papa is Carnelian from my album here...he was such a great dad! He died shortly after but he was first spawning I had done with bettas and I was spoiled by him...the next 3 males I tried either failed completely or ate their kids.
Did you see, blimp33 has some more oranges for sale on aquabid...so does "nack" at beaverbetta (i wonder if he knows connotations of his betta company's name?). Nack is a sweetheart though; I had won one of his copper/red/black HMs and two days before he was to be shipped, he got stressed and chewed his tail pretty bad, so Nack emailed me the bad news w/pics and was worried that the trip would do the betta in! So, you can see how well he cares about his bettas...and, of course, as a result, I am always looking at his fish for one to buy


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## Maddybelle

http://www.facebook.com/MaddysBettaSpawnLog


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## Maddybelle

These kids will be 6 weeks old on Wednesday. I've ordered their jars - $22 for 50 32oz containers w/lids, free shipping! They should arrive soon. I'm going to wait as long as possible to jar them (water changes are just simpler with one 15gal than 50+ 32oz containers)

I need to start lining up homes for the little guys/gals. I'm seeing lots of cambodian looking fry. Hopefully at least some will get some red on their bodies. I'm also seeing plenty of orange, ranging from light, almost pastel, to bright, vibrant, Crayola orange. There's a few fry that look as if they'll turn out yellow. 

Who wants a baby? Or 4?


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## ravenwinds

I might...been looking for a great yellow and a great orange...your babies uncle, my male HM, seems to have set on a nearly solid pastel orange with very little iridescence...might be interesting to keep going in that direction by breeding him to one of your lighter orange girls ...I could call it the orange sherbet line.


----------



## birdielikestomatoes

I might be interested in a girl.


----------



## Myates

I am very interested in seeing how they come out! Have a cellophane girl in my breeding baracks, and in a month or so will be getting some oranges (hopefully) from a spawn. This is a possible consideration for me in 6+ months.. this or blue/oranges. So would like to see what comes from these guys..


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## Maddybelle

And, we have ventrals! Well, only one fry is showing theirs at the moment, but its something. Also, the fry are starting to get color on their bodies! I'm a little dissapointed, because some of the prettiest babies are showing dad's black scales. His is only a minor fault, but I figured crossing to cellophane would eliminate it.

Oh, and, I got my 32oz containers today! I now definitly know where to go if I ever need more. These are perfectly clear, and I easily added a few air holes and a feeding hole in each of the lids. Pictures tommorow.


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## ravenwinds

Where did you find your containers?


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## Maddybelle

I got mine off of ebay. The seller was pactogo_inc. 50 containers with lids for $22, free shipping. Best price I could find anywhere!


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## ravenwinds

Thanks! Now I know where to start my search


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## Maddybelle

So, I've jarred 4 fry so far. They're still pretty small, but these guys were pigging out and their smaller siblings weren't getting enough to eat. They seem to be doing okay on their own, but I've got them where they can see each other so they don't get lonely. Mom's still chillin in the fry tank, and it looks as if all the guppy fry are males.


----------



## moonsand0wls

Is it just me or in one of your latest pictures one of your fry are getting color?! Red? Or is it just the way the photo was taken :L

So cute


----------



## Maddybelle

Yep, almost all of my fry have color now. The largest one is a really nice orange. I've also got lots of reds, and some I'm hoping will turn out yellow.


----------



## moonsand0wls

That's cute  Do you think you could possibly end up with a mustard ?


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## Maddybelle

Probably not, since neither parent has blue, and there's very little iridescence on the fry.


----------



## Maddybelle

Culled most of the tiny fry that weren't growing, including Tiny and Stormageddon. They just weren't doing well. Also culled some larger fry with spinal deformities. I took them down to my lfs to feed to the oscars, and promptly got bit by a 7 incher. My finger is not a worm!!


----------



## Maddybelle

Fry are now 7 weeks and 1 day. Starting to see some ray branching, and several other babies are getting their ventrals in! I've reintroduced all but one of the babies I had jarred back into the growout tank: I won't have time to clean 12 jars every day or two for the next couple of weeks, and the others have caught up in size. The one fry that I still have jarred (my largest, a cute orange male) is being treated for swim bladder. I'm starting to be able to tell who's male. Lots of boys in this spawn!


----------



## marktrc

more pics pls. =)


----------



## Maddybelle

LOL, okay, you asked for it!
















Pardon the poop, these were right before I siphoned the bottom.
















And one of Quasar. He's just so cute!


----------



## bryzy

Is mom with the babies?


----------



## Maddybelle

Yep, she's been living in there for about a week, along with some guppies. Everyone's getting along fine.


----------



## bryzy

That's in a way weird!


----------



## Maddybelle

So, 8 weeks old and my babies are still the size of 6 week olds. Also, it looks like I'm going to end up with a bunch of ventral-less fish. Only about 3-4 of the babies have theirs. Just goes to show how important water changes/siphoning is. Ah, well, they'll still be breedable, just not showable. Maybe I'll get lucky, and one of the fry with ventrals will turn out to be show quality. I don't love them any less, I'm just a bit dissapointed, mainly since I know its my own fault.


----------



## DragonFyre14

Oh that sucks. I bet they will still be beautiful and will grow up with wonderful personalities


----------



## bryzy

Maddybelle said:


> So, 8 weeks old and my babies are still the size of 6 week olds. Also, it looks like I'm going to end up with a bunch of ventral-less fish. Only about 3-4 of the babies have theirs. Just goes to show how important water changes/siphoning is. Ah, well, they'll still be breedable, just not showable. Maybe I'll get lucky, and one of the fry with ventrals will turn out to be show quality. I don't love them any less, I'm just a bit dissapointed, mainly since I know its my own fault.


So sorry to hear about that.


----------



## moonsand0wls

Awww, that sucks. Sorry to hear. One of my females doesn't have ventrals either! But they still are cute!


----------



## ravenwinds

I have seen some ventral-less bettas sold on aquabid...and sold fast, too.
Whatmakes them not grow? I heard microworms can do it at some stages during development of fry, but, it seems a bit vague. Does anyone more about missing ventral fins?


----------



## moonsand0wls

It can be either genetic or due to bacteria. I have heard feeding micro-worms exclusively can do it, but I don't really know about that one.


----------



## ravenwinds

That just sucks Maddybelle! Probably shouldn't breed orange daddy, Quasar, again since it most likely came from his genetics since I have bred your female's cousin and sister with no issues. Of course it could have been just the roll of the dice...both your bettas could have recessive copies of these genes, with result that only breeding with each other could this trait have occured and been expressed.
I am sorry, Maddy, but you're right: they will still be gorgeous with those colorings and they can still be bred...


----------



## marktrc

sorry about the ventrals. 
what were you feeding and how often? what was your cleaning schedule like? how big is your tank and with how many fry?

personally i wouldnt give up on daddy as a breeder so fast. id give it one more try esp if you suspect it might be due to cleaning or food.


----------



## Maddybelle

It was definitely due to my cleaning schedule. Things around my house have been really crazy lately, and I haven't had time to clean out the fry tank nearly as often as I should. That's probably why they're a bit small, as well. I use walter worms instead of microworms, that's what they ate for the first 2 weeks. It isn't the worms themselves that cause missing ventrals, its the fact that they sink to the bottom. The fry hang out on the bottom of the tank, where bacteria grow, and that causes their ventrals not to develop. I don't think I'll breed dad again, not because of this issue, but because I'm seeing an unusually high occurrence of spinal deformities in this spawn, and I know it isn't coming from mom.


----------



## ravenwinds

Well thought out, so you probably have that nailed. Maybe there is an orange boy in this spawn that you could breed to mom...might reduce spinal deformity genes.
I hope all your general "craziness" settles down for you!
I know how it is though...I lost the better part of 3 spawns this fall leaving cleaning and feeding of them to my mom per her request. 3 small spawns totaled about 100fry...I taught her how to feed the live foods and to stick with banana worms and vinegar eels since those cultures were doing the best. A couple of weeks later, she asked me where she could get some more banana worms once that culture was gone. So, I looked at culture which had lots of worms on sides but seemed less, so I watched her "feed" ...she dipped her finger in the oatmeal food part! She said that explained a lot since there seemed so many less fry...down to about 25 fry....though they all had ventrals grow in...then we lost 5 more to swim bladder issues since she told me after the fact ...she was getting lazy, in her words, and was only feeding golden pearls...this was about time I was learning from you that golden pearls caused swim bladder issues if fed too often...well, at the time, I thought mom was doing what I suggested, and only feeding them maybe 3x/week. So, I totally understand crazy life at home!


----------



## Maddybelle

Holy crow, Ravenwinds! I'm glad I'm home pretty much all the time, so I get to take care of my fry. My mom's eyes glaze over when I start talking about fish stuff. 

Anywho, I'm sorry I haven't been updating like I should, the holidays kinda got in the way. =) Babies are now 10 weeks old, mom and guppies are still chillin in the fry tank. Doing my 2nd cull tomorrow. I hate doing it, but I know its for the best. Several of the babies with ventrals are looking very nice, so I may have some show fish after all! I'm keeping my eye on 2 nice orange males (neither have ventrals, but they are the biggest and have the most color) that may be my future breeders, if I do an F2. I'm seeing several that look to be marble, of all things! Yet another surprise from daddy's Petco genes. Even though mom is cello, there isn't any marble in her recent pedigree that I'm aware of.

Hey Ravenwinds, do you have any pics of my female's relatives? I know I probably asked that, but its almost 4:30am here, and my memory is shot.


----------



## Maddybelle

Who wants baby pictures?!? I cupped 13 fry today, plus my little Petco baby I got today. All of the cupped fry from this spawn are numbered, so far 1-13. When I'm more sure of their genders, their designation will include either (M) for male, or (F) for female. So, for example, #1 will be 1(M), #12 will be 12(M), #3 will be 3(F).
*#1, the largest cupped male*








*#1 next to the Petco baby
*








*#13,* *a cute light orange
*








*#12, I'm hoping his swimming problems are just a temporary case of swim bladder, he's a personable little fella
*








*#7, yellow cutie
*







*
#3, cambo girl w/ventrals
*








*#2, orange male. His tail is growing back, someone thought he was a snack.
*


----------



## ravenwinds

Oh, they are so cute! I think my favorite so far is Lucky #13...(my lucky # anyway!) And also #2...looks like he's gonna have one heck of a color!
Oh, and from my experience with my orange dalmation spawn, if they have such colorful, strong ventrals now...good chance it'll be a boy....speaking of Cambodian(girl) w/ventrals...that one might surprise you


----------



## repru04

They have some strong coloring. I can't wait to see them as they mature.


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## Maddybelle

Thanks guys! I'm still trying to catch my favorite orange boy, he's fast! He's going to look just like his dad, but with mom's blue eyes. =)


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## Maddybelle

I've determined that #2 is actually my orange boy...just didn't recognize him with his tail nommed. Cupped 7 more fry tonight, which brings the total of cupped fry to 21, 20 from this spawn, and my petco baby. Add my 7 cupped adult males, and I'm in for a lot of water changes! 

Luckily, I have a system. I have holes in the lids of the cups that are too small for fish to get out but big enough for poop and leftover food to pass through. I take a group of cups into my bathroom, and tip them over on their sides in the bathtub. After most of the water drains out, I pick them up, put them back on the counter, and remove the lids. I use a turkey baster to suck out any left over yucky stuff, and gently refill the cups with treated water that is the same temp as the water I removed. I usually do this every other day, but I might have to do 1/2 of the cups one day, and the other 1/2 the next day. Rinse and repeat.


----------



## repru04

About when will they be ready for their new homes? I want some!!


----------



## callistra

Loving #2 and #7 #13


----------



## DragonFyre14

Ohhh! they are getting big!


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## Maddybelle

They'll be ready sometime in February - March. I'm up to 30 cupped fry now! Only a few left in the tank. Instead of making my 20gal a goldfish tank, I'm going to use it as a growout for the remaining small fry and future spawns.


----------



## ravenwinds

That's a good idea! Right now I have a 10g for my grow-out...but since half my spawns disappeared (literally...can't find bodies or anything ...and no adult fish, snail, or shrimp shared the tank), I don't need anything larger than that.


----------



## Maddybelle

Mine are in a 16 gallon plastic tote at the moment, filled to approximately 10 gallons. Way cheap setup, the tote cost $5. I got the 20, hood/light, air pump, about 100 feet of airline tubing, and a filter from a lady who works at my lfs. For free. LOL, she always lets me pick out whatever I want when I trade in snails. Which is very helpful, since I'm a perpetually broke highschool student. =)


----------



## ravenwinds

Don't knock it...free is good ...wish I have contacts like yours! My fry stay in their breeding/hatching/grow-out tote until they absolutely can't stand the sight of one another without picking a fight...I find that there are always 2-8 fry that just don't develop this attitude, so while getting large enough to not get eaten in a sorority or community tank, they continue growing out in a NPT 10g.


----------



## Maddybelle

I'm cupping mine early because I can keep the water quality up to snuff in the cups, but I'm struggling with the 16gal. I'm going to have to rehome my guppies and red ramshorns, they're just far too prolific and poop far too much. I'll uncup them when I get the 20 set up. That will be tomorrow's project. Gotta clean out the 10 that was previously home to my blind goldfish, set up my frog in that, clean out the 20, and set that up. Long day tomorrow!


----------



## Maddybelle

So, I never did get around to setting up the 20 gal as a growout. I'll definitely get it up and running for my next spawn. =) Mom is still coexisting peacefully with the fry still in the tub, and well as an ever increasing number of guppies. I did find a new way of controlling the guppy population, though! My VT boys love guppy fry, apparently, and hunting something so fast is a great way to get them some exercise. 

Babies will be 12 weeks tomorrow. #1, a pretty red boy, flared last night! I need to do another large-ish cull, mostly runts not doing well in the growout and deformed/weak jarred fry that aren't going to have a good quality of life. This spawn is still looking to be mostly male. If there isn't a nice female that I could breed somewhere in there, I'll be looking for a (hopefully related) girl, preferably yellow, to breed with one of these boys in about 2 months.


----------



## MattsBettas

Yay! You don't have to cull too hard, a lot of people will take not perfect and even sickish fish. Not to bad for your first spawn!


----------



## Maddybelle

Rawr. Had to toss out my whiteworm culture. It went all sour and moldy. =( Luckily, my babies are perfectly happy eating their flakes and GP.

On a more positive note, #1 flared fro the first time a few nights ago. And, I've got several more gorgeous babies in the growout that need to be jarred. One is what I *think* may be a girl, that is a carbon copy of its mother!


----------



## ravenwinds

That's great news about the growing babies...especially the possible female carbon copy of mom 

I am having the same kind rotting issue with banana worms lately...my 2nd culture from a different person and it seems to be headed down same path as the last


----------



## Maddybelle

I'm having great luck with my walter worms. I got my starter from Bug Pantry. Just divided my culture in half two days ago, and I'm already feeding from them. I can send you a starter, if you want. =)


----------



## ravenwinds

That would be great! Just let me know how much,$$ to ship it to Merlin Oregon 97532.
Thank you!


----------



## crowntaillove3

Happy to see that the spawn is working out okay! Power to you for getting all of this done while in high school! I bet it's tough.


----------



## Maddybelle

Ravenwinds - Sorry I haven't gotten back to you! LOL, I've been really busy the last few days. I ship Priority flat rate, so shipping is $6. Would you mind a little vinegar eels add on to help fill up the box? I'm not real fond of them, and never really did use them, but they seem to be thriving.

Crowntaillove3 - Luckily I'm homeschooling this year, so I'm home all the time to keep an eye on my "kids"! Its still a challenge to fit everything into one day; fish, school, my jewelry/craft business (currently kinda on hold since the street festival/craft show season ended), volunteering at the local humane society, and taking care of my other pets. But, being involved with so many things gives me so many opportunities to meet some really awesome people!


----------



## Maddybelle

I just went back and read through some of the earlier posts on here, and its hard to believe that its been almost 14 weeks since these guys were born! They've gone from eggs, to tiny wigglers, to ravenous eating machines that actually look like bettas!

I've got a female on special order from my LPS to mate with my turquoise HM boy, Rory. His finnage isn't as heavy or "fluffy" as Quasar's, but he's still a very nice fish. Hoping to get a girl that will even out his anal, add more branching to the caudal, and fix his slight spoonhead. He's still young, so I'm hoping his caudal will grow out some more.


----------



## crowntaillove3

Very pretty! So...Shipping is only $6? If you still have some in March (I'm getting another betta for my b-day) maybe I could talk my mom into letting me purchase one from you! She is a little skeptical about shipping bettas, but I can pull the "some are shipped all the way from Thailand and all of the others are shipped either on a truck or on a plane from across the country" card.


----------



## crowntaillove3

Can I see some more pics?


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## Maddybelle

Oh, sorry Crowntaillove! I meant that shipping for Ravenwind's walter worms was $6. Shipping for bettas ranges from $10-35, depending on how you do it. I've never shipped before, so I'm not entirely sure how much it will cost to ship these guys.

If you'd still be interested, tonight is cup cleaning/picture night, so I'll post some more pics in a few minutes. I'm figuring Priority shipping should be about $14, not sure about Express, and I'm planning on selling the babies for $5-15 depending on quality.


----------



## crowntaillove3

Oh... *sigh* Well, I can try to convince mom. I can afford it with my own money, but mother dearest doesn't think that it would be a reasonable purchase. I still want to see the pics, though!


----------



## Maddybelle

This is what I could get. The babies were especially wiggly tonight, and my camera was acting up again. Most of these aren't numbered, so I'm not 100% sure who's in which picture, but I'm going to wait to let folks pick out which ones they want until the babies have developed a bit more anyway.
























































This little guy/girl will need a pet only home because of his bent gill cover. It doesn't affect him/her at all, it just isn't very pretty. =)


----------



## Maddybelle

Grrr, photobucket left some of the pictures huge. Sorry, folks!


----------



## crowntaillove3

Are the colors just not in yet, or do I see a lot of Cambodians? They look so cute! I'm happy to see that they are doing well. And about the shipping thing, I was pretty sure that six bucks seemed a little low for fish! Never hurts to try, I guess.


----------



## Maddybelle

The orange babies are taking their own seweet time getting colored up, and I do have several that look like they're gonna stay cambodian. And yeah, sorry about the mix up, LOL.


----------



## polukoff

I have some really nice blue girls with straight edges available if your still interested Maddybelle.


----------



## Maddybelle

Could you PM me some pics? Turns out the LPS's supplier decided to stop carrying HM girls without telling them. =( Rawr.


----------



## polukoff

Maddybelle said:


> Could you PM me some pics? Turns out the LPS's supplier decided to stop carrying HM girls without telling them. =( Rawr.


Sure I will get you some pictures.


----------



## Maddybelle

Hey guys! I just updated my Facebook page for this spawn: http://www.facebook.com/MaddysBettaSpawnLog


----------



## ravenwinds

Hey Maddybelle, sorry about late response....been crazier than usual chasing after my 3yr old (tests her boundaries every few...seconds, LOL! No moss (or algae maybe, to complete analogy with fish terms) growing on her!!

If you still have Walter worm culture (and yes, some vinegar eels would be ok as well  available, I'd love some! What's your PayPal address? You can PM me if you'd rather.

By the way, what a pretty orange #23 (i think) is!


----------



## Maddybelle

My Paypal is [email protected]. =)

There are quite a few that look just like #23, but he's one of my favorites. That fish just loves the camera!

I just jarred 4 more babies: 3 red/cambos and on that is just now coloring up. Fingers crossed for marble! She has a bit of a swim bladder issue, and is quite bloated, so is in epsom salts to see if she'll recover.

One of the newly jarred cambodians is a very pretty female with 1 ventral. The few girls I got in this spawn have inherited their mother's big ole ovaries! This and their light body color helps to tell who is what gender. =) Still kinda bummed about having 90% males, but next time I'll try incubating the eggs at 81*F instead of 84*F.


----------



## ravenwinds

Thanks Maddy!
Next Thursday is payday so, if it's ok, I'll send payment to your PayPal thurs or Friday.
Just in time too since I've had 3 small spawns last week, officially 6 and 9 day old fry 
From Sunset, tricolor blue with yellow & orange CT. X. Royal blue black head CT female; Red (super red)) HM X green metallic HM female.
Ialso have my new turquoise HM X green orchid HM in spawning tank as I type this


----------



## Maddybelle

Okay raven, but you HAVE to sent me pics of those pairs!! Especially the CTs and the turquoise x orchid pair. =D


----------



## Maddybelle

Wow, so I've got all my fry cupped now. (Note to self, clean room so I can fit more fish in there! LOL, my bedroom is also my fishroom) In between 25-30 babies, not as impressive as I would have liked. 

Unfortunately, I only have one little baby with ventrals that looks decent. All the other pretty ones are ventral-less, and the only other baby with both ventrals isn't that nice. So, I'm probably not going to have anything from this spawn to send to the IBC shows this spring.

I'm reviewing my fry care methods, and planning my next spawn. Due to the lovely toplines, dorsals, and bodies on these babies, and how wonderful the parents were, I'm considering doing a respawn of this pair. Still a bit too early to judge color and finnage, as this spawn is way behind where they should be. I've learned that this is often the case with breeder's first spawns, so I'm not discouraged.

On a happier note, my favorite little male from this spawn, Rawr (#1), decided he was a big boy and is practicing his bubble nesting skills! He's flaring at mom at the moment (she couldn't care less) He's a very nice red with minimal iridescence, and full of personality just like his dad!

I also have a nice little red female with one ventral that looks promising! Definitely one I'm gonna keep my eye on.


----------



## ravenwinds

Okay, okay...I'll get pics up of my spawns...maybe even do a spawn log!

Revision note: my turquoise HM was looking not right. He has sw bladder or infection (of intestines?) and my green/black orchid was so not interested. So, he is in hospital; I have placed her with Sam, one of my other super red HMs. 
And my chocolate (brownish black body w/dark orange (reminds me of bittersweet chocolate) is with a clear w/drm red splotches on body and whitish clear fins. They are both HMs...he is a Petco rescue and she is from my 1st spawn ever and her parents were sibling orange dalmations from SmileBetta in Thailand.


----------



## Maddybelle

These guys are still super small for their age. Plus, the growout is having issues with velvet. I'm treating them with Coppersafe, and pulled mom. She's currently in quarantine/conditioning. I'm hoping to breed her with Steve, my grizzle VT boy, to try and begin establishing a pastel DTVT line. 

I'd hate to have to cull the entire orange HM spawn, but it looks like that may be where this is headed. The ones in the growout aren't growing, despite water changes, 83* temps, and plentiful nutritious food. The ones that are already jarred are having issues as well. I think that my mistakes during their first few weeks were just too much for them to overcome. All this work, time, and money spent on a spawn full of fish that are pet quality at best - better luck next time, I suppose!


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## ravenwinds

That's what I hear, lol! I think anyone who has attempted to breed bettas has seen these issues...and more....remember my spawn by your female's cousin was just as ill-fated...and my first spawn, the orange dalmations, are pet quality ( I didn't know enough about choosing my breeding pairs), at least the ones that my newest cat didn't [email protected]
A: I,Think it has to be more difficult,to be worth something. Bettas are special for many reasons and this is just one more...they might spawn up to 300eggs, but usually less than 100 hatch, and of those, only a handful make it to adulthood!.
I am only now beginning to get a rhytmn with breeding these fish and I still have tons to learn. My mother is always disappointed with # of spawn and breeding difficulties...she's used to livebearers and thinks if the pair don't mate, then the male doesn't "know what he's doing!" LOL! She just doesn't get that bettas are picky in choosing with whom to spawn, that they are as picky as humans and their reproductive drive is just as instinctual.
Right now, we have 4 different spawns, and about 350 fry total...but it took 6mos and numerous pairs with stalled/failed spawns, lost fry to q few different causes when the pair actually mated. All our fry are under 1mos old!

Please don't give up Maddybelle! You have vision and I know you'll be able to accomplish your goals


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