# LucyLoofa's 2 Gallon Walstad Setup



## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

I thought I'd start a thread about my two gallon tank I plan to purchase and turn into some lucky betta's very own little ecosystem.
I'm currently working over this base on my first fleshed out concept image, but for now everyone gets to see my lame base because I'm tired from lack of sleep for the past 3 days and am (at this exact moment) completely ready to just give up and pass out.
You'll probably see Concept 1 some time tomorrow night.
If I'm lucky I'll get at least 5 done by next Thursday so I can render some out in Maya after I download the student version.
AAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyways
here it is, marvel at it's sheer simplicity and staleness:


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

picture isn't posting... i'll try again in the morning


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## kelly528 (Aug 31, 2009)

Just a pointer, you'll want at least a 5g for a walstad. A 2g will fill up with ammonia too fast and you won't be able to fit enough plants.


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

I have a 2.5 and 3 gallon Walstad doing well. I know Diana Walstad does 1 and 2.5 gallons herself for shrimp.

Here's an article about her nano tanks.


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

That's the same article I was reading actually.
I hope things go well.
I'm trying to get absolutely every minute detail planed and executed before I buy my fish this time.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

As long as you start out with enough of the right kind of plants-stem and floating.....the plants will function as the filter and keep the water safe, however, until the plants start to actively grow partial water only changes are needed-floating plants like water lettuce, frogbit, duckweed, hornwort will use ammonia up pretty fast in a 1 fish, few snails and shrimp in a 1-3 gallon containers IME


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Do either of you have advice on what method to use?
I was thinking of putting a cherry shrimp and a malaysian(?) trumpet snail in with the betta... maybe a mystery snail as well and I knew that the shrimp would like the carpet plants a lot and it would look very lovely at the bottom of the tank.
I want the entire bottom of the tank covered if possible, the more plants there are the better my betta and the snails and shrimp will be.
I wanted to use Dwarf Hair Grass and Hemianthus Callitrichoides as the carpet plant and get a small bunch of Mexican Oak Leaf as my stem plant with Frogbit as the floating plant.
Here is the picture of the tank since it isn't working on other people's computers:









I have re-crated it in illustrator (without the hood) to show how I will be planting it.
I'm still working the concept out for the first concept which I will post tonight. (it's tedious pen tooling all of those leaves. uhg.)
As you can see it is a vertical hex 2 gallon so I think 1 large stem plant will do as long as I have frogbit floating at the top. Which, by the way, I think looks very charming! I've just never seen how long the roots grow before so I'm worried it will be a problem for my betta. I still want him to be able to reach the surface for air.
anyways! gtg! I'll be back to post with more info soon!
Any help would be appreciated!
I love hearing what you guys have to say!


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## DormDrax (Dec 1, 2010)

We used to have a tank like that... I think it was a 4-5 gallon because it was tall... 

I called it the 'Death Hex' because when I was little fish never lasted a week in it... my parents were not knowledgeable so it was filled with horrid hard plastic plants... it really was a death chamber XD 

Before I got Drax tank my mom was like... "HEY! Don't we still have that old tank?" 

I was like. "No..." (Midnight that night I slipped into the storage room and dug it out and destroyed it and threw it in the dumpster so it would never kill again XD).


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I have a hex tank just like the one you plan to use and it works wonderful as NPT...

You will need a lot more than one stem plant..more like 20 or more.....in the beginning I would only plant one dwarf hair grass-it will reproduce pretty fast by sending out runners and cover the bottom in a month or two...... you need the stem plants for their fast growth and root system to help pull oxygen into the soil to help avoid anaerobic or dead spots....adding the trumpet snails will also help with this-they are wonderful snails for the NPT due to their burrowing nature, some common snails like pond or ramshorn are also good and will help keep some species of algae off the plant leaves as well as eating dying/dead plant material and left over food but you have to keep their population under control...shrimp are great too and will help shred dying/dead plant material to help speed the decaying process....in NPT you don't have to add food for the shrimp and snail per se...just an extra pinch of food for the Betta and what it doesn't eat the shrimp and snails will and what they don't eat the plants will use for food/energy....fish food is a good plant food too......I add extra just for them on occasion....lol......

In the NPT you need to cover 75-80% of the floor with stem plants-if you start with too few plants in a soil based tank you can risk a crash....NPT are planted tanks not an aquarium with some plants...the main focus are the plants and the fish and livestock are extra....NPT should be low stocked for them to function correctly otherwise the plants can't keep up with the byproducts...especially when first set up

You need at least 10-20% floating plants to start and then you can thin them down once the stems start to actively grow-frogbit is really light weight and the Betta will not have any trouble getting air from under them.

Since your light is going to be coming from the side that should help with any hair/thread type algae that can often become problematic with over head lights that are too strong or too close...watch for this and remove as needed-this can cause problems for the Betta getting to the air due to the mats they can sometimes form

Speaking of lights----what kind are you planing to use..... watts and kelvin....with NPT they are low to mod light set ups and so you need to be careful and not use too much but still enough for good growth...sometimes you have to play with this as far as distance, photoperiod, penetration etc..... balance is the key and tweaking is needed on a regular basis...these are little ecosystems-low tech-no CO2 or added ferts are needed, just an extra pinch of fish food on occasion, waste from the livestock, lights and even the decay and decomp of plant material are important factors...so you have to be careful and not remove too much of the mulm, waste, dead plant material...some needs to be left for the tank/soil/microorganisms to convert for the plants and over all health of the water...everything works together...once mature few water changes are needed....however, this can take 3-6 months......

Here is my little 2gal Hex-no filtration, 2wpg-6500k, 7.5w preset heater-plants: naja grass, hygrophilia, wisteria, ludwigia, rotala, water lettuce-1 adult male Betta, trumpet snail, pod and rams horn snails, red cherry shrimp-substrate: potting soil with black sand cap


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## zoragen (Sep 25, 2009)

Fishlady -beautiful tank!

Lucy - can't wait to see the tank up & running.

If I have room someday this type of tank is HIGH on my wish list!


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

http://thegab.org/Plants/step-by-step-setting-up-a-walstad-type-natural-planted-tank.html That is a link to another step-by-step I've been reading.

OFL I've seen you post everywhere that the soil may not be ready for as long as 3 months.
Do you and MoePaac have any advice on putting livestock in on the second day as she/he did?
Apparently her ammonia parameters were zero on day two, but I don't understand how that's possible.
Progress that fast? It's puzzling, and I'm a little suspicious. I don't feel it would be safe to do that, maybe for the snails, but not a fish.

I was considering doing the Dry Planted setup pictured here:

























It's very low maintenance and ideal for my work and school schedule.
The reason I liked the idea of this method so much is because there's a lower risk of algae, and I don't want to spend a lot on plants for them to die off so quickly like in a submersed set up.

But if a submerged setup is best and has been a faithful easy process for most people then I'm willing to give it the old college try haha.
OFL has already suggested some fine plants. I'll probably use either frogbit or naja grass for a floating plant. I've been studying and I like the look of this Mexican Oakleaf http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscen...hinnersia-rivularis-EASY-Plant-mexoakleaf.htm for the stem plant I'll need along with some Creeping Jenny http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscen...a-Gold-Creeping-Jenny-VERY-EASY-goldlyod5.htm because I don't like the idea of having pointy plant life around a betta fish and most stem plants look very pointy. Call me paranoid, I know it probably doesn't hurt the fish, but I'd rather be safe than sorry ya know?
For a foreground plant I'd like to use Bacopa Australis http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscentral.com/Bacopa-Australis-EASY-PLANT-australis01.htm , Dwarf Hair Grass http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscen...airgrass-great-foreground-plant-dwarfhg01.htm , and http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscentral.com/Dwarf-Lily-Plant-Nymphaea-stellata-dlil01.htm .


Moe, OFL, do you have any advice or warnings about a nano set up like this?
Common kinks you ran into maybe?
Or links with advice about distance, photoperiod, penetration and stuff like that would be helpful too. I'm only familiar with photosynthesis and the necessities of plants on a high school biology level and I would like to see the warning signs if something is going amiss so I can save the tank as quickly as I can.

Other plant suggestions would be nice.
Thanks for your time!


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Oh! And the light bulb that is in my lamp now is a 40 watt CFl but I'll be bumping it down to 15 watts and probably the same kelvins as Wallywestisthebest333 has on her 15 watts: around 6,500.
I'm a tad worried because it normally only needs 2 wats per gallon but the lowest watt I've seen is 15.
I guess it'll be good enough. *shrugs*


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

I'd like some advise on the light too. :/ I got a clip on light with a mini 13 watt 6,500K CFL that I plan to use on my 2.3 gallon jar (hopefully it'll clip on and stay. :/) and I'm not sure how long to leave my light on.

Thanks for any advise! =]


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Turns out what I thought was a 2g was actually a 1.6g.
There goes that. I want him/her to at least have 2 gallons of room.
I'm thinking of getting a "medium" sized Kritter Keeper to use for this planted setup. It's a total of 3 gallons which I find to be more than appropriate for the little guy considering he'll be by himself aside from some snails and shrimp.
Do you guys think this is a bad idea?
Any ideas on where I could find a good 2-4 gallon tank that doesn't take up a lot of space? That's why I actually took the hex route instead of a rectangle in the first place.
My bedside table has steel/aluminum support so it could hold up to 7 gallons no problem, but it needs to be a taller tank than wide. I think there's only about a foot and a half to two feet in length for a tank.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I set my NPT up and add the fish, snails, shrimp all in the same day and have never had any deaths/illness/problems
When I say it can take 3 months for the soil/tank to mature-what I mean by that-it the tank will start to take care of itself-until then you still have to monitor and make water changes like any new setup...with NPT they are designed so you don't need water changes like you need on a regular substrate tank...

Your lights-you don't want to go much over 2wpg-I would stay in the 1.5-2 especially with small shallow tank because of the penetration-what is more important is the kelvin and you want that in the 6500-6700k range-the plants can use this better and its more like the sun....too high of watts in shallow tanks and you can end up with an algae farm.....

Photo period-I would start with 10 hours and tweak from that point based on plant growth and algae


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

I added my male betta to the 2.5 the same day. It was kind of a test trial and isn't set up properly,... but has worked well for me. I have 2 stem plants in it, a dwarf lily, and then a mix of micro sword and pygmy chain sword that makes up about 80% of the coverage. There are then rocks, some home-collected driftwood with java moss attached. There is also some frogbit, but it isn't doing amazingly. I have only checked ammonia on this tank, and it's zero. However, betta behavior is great and the snails are doing fine as well. I will try and post a picture of it in the next few days.

I recently redid my 3 gallon. For this one I used a large piece of home-collected driftwood with some java moss tied to it. I then just threw in small bits of extra plants. I took no care to planting well, just tossed them where they fit, even trimmed some of the plants heavily and let them go without any special care. I have no idea what kind of potting soil I used, and threw in some shrimp and snails the same day. I've yet to do a water change. This tank is doing surprisingly well. It has a lot of random plants in there, and I just added some dwarf sag which will soon spread like wildfire. It is dark with tannins, but the shrimp and snails are lively and I'm getting good plant growth on plants that hadn't done well.

My point of this story is that (as OFL said) all these tanks are slightly different, and typically you just need to let them grow and get going. I tinkered with my 12g NPT for months... in the past month I have just let it be... It is finally beginning to flourish. You need to let them do their own thing and then they show their potential.

If you add the livestock that first day or so, make sure you do the water changes in the beginning. My fish really, really appreciated it. Now that is is maturing and plants are finally beginning to shine, I'm not doing the water changes. Things are going well. As for the 3 gallon... who knows! It's just working.

Other good advice I have gotten about the NPT style is to start with a lot of different plants. Variety is key. Why? Because despite your best efforts, some plants just won't grow well in your particular environment. I personally love the look of foxtail green. I can't get it to grow worth a darn in my 12g! I also can't get ludwigia to grow in any of my tanks -- it barely stays alive. However, the star grass, apon bulbs, anacharis, and rotala are growing like crazy. The pygmy chain and microsword are doing ok in my 12g... but are a nice bright green in my 2.5g and sending shoots. Each one is different! The dwarf lily wasn't growing in my 12g... it's grown every day in the new 3g.

I tried planning my 12g really well... it worked better when I just stuck plants in there and let them go. I also really planned my 2.5 gallon... it's kinda working, but again, let it do it's thing.

As for the lighting question, I use 15watt compact fluorescent bulbs. I have two over my 12g, 1 each over my 2.5 and 3. I use desk lamps for the small tanks so I can adjust how high over the tank it is. My lights come on for 6 hours in the morning, they get an hour break, then on for 6 hours in the afternoon/evening. I increased this from 10 hours when I realized I wasn't getting good plant growth. Again, trial and error.

My advice... get it up and running as soon as you can. Stick some plants in there, and see how it goes. They are addicting anyway. Then once the plants are really growing, add in your fish!


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Well, the good news is that I've found two good new tanks to use.
A 20 dollar Marine Land 5g Hex and a 20 dollar 2 gallon Aquaview 360 that are good for this project.
(the aquaview would of course have the tray and center tube removed and just be straight up planted.)
I'm really hoping it goes well.
I'll plant as soon as I get my aquarium and then add the snails and shrimp asap.
I'll keep up daily water changes then for the first 2 or 3 weeks of up to 75 percent until I see the plants start to grow a little more. (good idea?)
I'll probably add the betta fish after week 1 is through if the shrimp and snails are fine.
(call me paranoid, but I've had rotten luck with my fish so far and I'm really afraid of just jumping into this again)
This is also my first time to have snails or shrimp.
How do I know if they are healthy?
What did you use for the drift wood?
Do you actually live near a body of water to collect it from or did you get it from a hardwood tree and just keep it submersed?
My sister and I are very curious!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

I collect my wood from the local lake, streams, my stock pond and from my yard and pasture...if it looks interesting I snag it...scrub it, soak it...some are already water logged and others have to be weighted down until it is water logged.

I have a large water barrel that is in full sun that I collect rainwater in that I keep my collected wood.....I will use a spoon on it after I scrub and soak to dig out any soft spot...but I also leave some of it on them too especially for my pleco tank-they need that wood to rasp on for their digestion and this barrel being in full sun helps to get lots of algae growing on the wood and I swap it out ever so often so I can add wood with lots of algae on it for the plecos fry and guppies

I try to get only hardwood but some I have no idea what it is-I have had my hubby dig up some roots for me too and they look nice until they are covered with moss and then you can't see them...lol....some will start to break down and become part of the soil, the ones that have never been in water once they become water logged they will get a fungus looking growth on them that the fish, snail, shrimp love to feed off of and it goes away on its own after a while...never has been a problem.....I have some wood that little bugs will come out of and become part of my little ecosystem.....I don't worry about these things personally...other do....I look at it as something else interesting to look at and as long as it doesn't cause any problems...no worries...laff....its not a sterile environment.......however, it still a closed system so you do have to control some things....

As far a health of shrimp and snail....for me I look at their activity-if they are active and feeding then I assume they are healthy...shrimp are not long lived in the first place...1-2 years...so look for the smallest/youngest one...if you are getting cherry shrimp-get both dark red (female) and pale red(male) so they will reproduce for you-2F and 1m is a good start-as long as you have lots of hiding places the Betta usually will leave them alone-but not always...it depends on the Betta...but most baby shrimp will be eaten....I keep shrimp only tanks too so I can keep my other tanks stocked-I don't mind them eating the baby shrimp-its kinda why I have them and if you have plenty of places for the shrimp that the Betta can't get to-then some will survive....


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

I really appreciate seeing pictures, I think they help in explanations... so here's one of each of my tanks. 

2.5 gallon with microsword, pygmy chain sword, you can see a java fern suspended, a dwarf pond lily in front left, and there's a bit of star grass in the back left though can't really see it. There are rocks that are buried in the substrate (stick through a little, but covered in algae), and then there are two rocks holding down the drift wood with some java moss tied to it. Frogbit is the floater in this tank.









3 gallon. Not a good picture, but you can get the idea of me just throwing this thing together. I added the bacopa a few days ago as it wasn't rooting in the 2.5 gallon. I'll see how it does in this tank. There is a bit of hygro difformis, bacopa, hornwort, mini-sword, dwarf pond lily, some "barely hanging on" ludwigia, dwarf sag, a little microsword and pygmy sword, a java fern... little bit of everything. It'll get a water change when I go back to school in a week (considering I'll have to drain the tanks).









Here's my 12 gallon just for comparison. Things are finally starting to grow well. Some better than others, but nothing is doing poorly. The anacharis has really taken off and that gives me hope to how the rest of the plants are going to start growing.


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Thanks again! Both of your pictures are a big help!
Moe: Is the anacharis the plant on the far right in your 12 gallon or the far left?
The plant on the far right seems to be doing very well! I really like the look of it.
I Just bought a tank as well, so I'll be ordering plants, snails, and shrimp as soon as I can put money on my card.
It's a three gallon critter tote made of a acrylic.
I've already bought the soil and sand.
I've got a lamp ready for it as well.
I would have had my plants and such bought already, but Christmas sucked the funds right out of me. 
And I can't wait to go out and collect my driftwood!  Thanks OFL!
I'll be sure to go out and find some asap!
This is so exciting!


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

Anacharis is primarily to the left, stargrass is on the right. I had just trimmed the anacharis a day or two earlier as many strands had reached the surface of the water.


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

OH MY GOSH!  ALMOST READY! I hope the shrimp are back in stock soon!
Any idea where I can get some Frogbit? The store I shopped at ( http://www.shop.plantedaquariumscentral.com/) doesn't sell anything but Hornwort (which I'm buying anyways haha). I'm absolutely in love with how easy Frogbit is to keep and transfer to other tanks since I'll have three and probably more in the future!  So I'd love to have some of that as well!


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

You might try places that sell pond supplies and Koi, goldfish etc.... they nearly always have floating plants like frogbit and duckweed since it is part of their diet and used for food for them...they usually have water lettuce too my personal favorite floating plant.....lol...

Can't wait to see pic.....


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Thanks! You got me addicted to frogbit in the first place since it's so lightweight and easy for the little guy/gal to swim around! And thanks! I'll look at some koi stores! Off to the internet! Pics as soon as I find my camera again. :/ I might have left it at home over the holidays. It may be a week before I can get any pictures!


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Just found a steal for frogbit! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250730838820 He/She seems to care a lot about making sure the plant is clean as well so I don't have any uninvited guests like snails etc. If he gets my e-mail fast enough I'll be able to order tomorrow and it will be shipped here by the 13th/14th. Still don't have a camera...


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Nice find and good price....


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Guess who just bought a 5 gal for 27 dollars!  (Free shipping!)
That brings me to two 5 gallons, one 3 gallon, and one 10 gallon!
So Excited!
It's a pretty little tank too! Half hex.


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## BettaGirl290 (Jul 29, 2010)

Cool!


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

You're camera was in your drink holder the last time I saw it (when I was leaning in your car the day before yesterday). =]

Also congratulations on your new tank (Hawkeye right? JEALOUS)!

Should I bring the 3 gallon to your place if I come down tomorrow? We could set it up and practice together! =] And btw wanna go shopping with us? We're going to an Eddie Bauer store (... I think anyway or LL bean. one of those.) so you could get some boots or something. =]

Oh! has anyone ever had water hyacinth? it looks really nice... If it's not cool then I don't mind but the price is awfully nice and it isn't terribly invasive in my state and I'd dispose of it properly anyhow soooooooooo...... yeah. :] If I could use water hyacinth that'd be awesome! =]

To clarify I wouldn't be using it any time soon... I plan on making a surprise purchase at a Petco on the way back up to school to get a 10 gallon for $10! ;] So I'll do an open top and I'd have wysteria, water sprite, water hyacinth, water lettuce (for the roots) and brazillian pennywort growing out of and around the tank... and I'd have some dwarf sagitaria, some java ferns, some red crypts, some anubias, and possibly a tiger lotus if it's not too full! XD The tank would be draped on either side by potted terrestrial ferns! <3 (my living room is so depressing it needs some life and color! XD) I'm not sure who will go in the 10 gallon yet... maybe some fancy tetras and guppies? =] Or maybe just shrimp? idk. =]


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## MoePaac (Jun 16, 2010)

The water hyacinth and water lettuce would work as water purifiers. I posted on your other hyacinth thread about some concerns about their need for strong light and size.

I've been reading Diana Walstad's book and wanted to throw out a couple of excerpts about floating plants since they came up:

"While the waterhyacinth is too large for most aquariums, other floating plants more suited to aquariums (duckweed, water lettuce, water sprite, etc) share the waterhyacinth's enormous capacity to remove water contaminants. This is because all floating plants have the 'aerial advantage.'" -- page 24

"The duckweed _Lemna gibba_ was also found to be highly effective in removing ammonia from fish effluent, particularly when the water was circulated. Ammonia levels in stagnant water rose during the first 20 hours in both the plant-free pond and one covered with a mat of duckweed. When the water was circulated, however, ammonia declined 90% within 48 hours in the duckweed pond. In contrast, in the plant-free pond ammonia levels remained constant for the first 48 hours after which there was a gradual decrease due to bacterial activity." -- page 25

I'm finding her book really fascinating (complicated at times!) and wanted to share!


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

Oh! Ok. =] I'll hold off on it then. I'll probably still experiment with it in larger containers someday but I'll keep it out of the 10 gallon. =]

I just found a great deal on RCS and MTS on AB. Lets hope my membership goes through soon!!!


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here it is. MTS are worse for wear, but their shells had babies. So I figure they can eat the dead snail bodies that fell out of the bag as they grow up. Maybe even occupy said old shells???
Rams Horns are ZOMBIES.
I swear. Ask Wally.
Anywho. This is it.
The plants have been in bad conditions, but nothing TLC won't fix right?
Some of the creeping Jenny came out of the soil. Dunno when. :s
Pics:


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## ilovebunnies (Oct 11, 2010)

Pretty awesome! I can't wait to see the progression of your tank!


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

I told you those MTS were dead. >:/ Poor things. :[

I know I told you this earlier but I love your setup and I can't wait to see the betta that you get for it! =]

And guess what I finished?!?!?!?!  It has to do with wine and tea! :3 Check out the crafts thread if you wanna have a look see! =]

Keep me updated on the MTS k? =]

Good luck! =]


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Good job....give it some time and soon everything will start to grow and fill in nicely.....

Sometimes I will use a rock to hold down plants until they roots into the soil...


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

I can't get my fishing line to stay tied.  It won't stay tied to the rocks I just bought.
Would it be okay to take a lighter and melt the fishing line together? Or would that be bad?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

If you are trying to tie plants use cotton thread.....but I don't see why you couldn't burn the ends on the fishing line to hold the knot...I wouldn't think it would cause any problems....but not 100% sure...never tried it....


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Okay, here's the Situation. I couldn't successfully revive the plants and I've figured out it was probably from extra ammonia from the DOA Malaysian Trumpet Snails and the fact that my sand cap was too tall. ( I had added more sand after the pictures I posted on this thread)
So here it goes again.
My new list:

Alright. Here's the order line up for my next go at this. *Please click the links beside the plant names for description on plant type and growth needs.* This will help in telling me whether this will be a better setup.

When I start over I will be starting over in my two 5 gallon tanks. ( i caved and bought another tank)
I will have the filters running, but only for water movement. No chemical or mechanical filtration.

Stock: Ramshorn Snails. Hopefully shrimp?

*Anacharis* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/my...ria_densa.html
*Bacopa Australis* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/my...Australis.html
*Brazilian Pennywort* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/my...cocephala.html
*Hornwort* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/my...submersum.html
*Red Wendtii Crypt* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/my...e_wendtii.html
*Creeping Jenny* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myplants/83-Creeping_Jenny_Lysimachia_nummularia_Aurea.html


Would Java Fern be beneficial as well???


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Are these the same species of plants you started with...if so, I would recommend getting different species of plants...sometimes, not all plants will do well in every setup-you have to experiment and try different plants until you find a species that likes your water, lights and soil.....

Overall the species you have listed are fine generally-you may have better luck with some hardier type species.....like-naja grass, water wisteria, hygrophilia siamensis, mexican oakleaf, ludwigia natans, rotala indica a floating plant like water lettuce or frogbit, duckweed

With the soil based tanks it is really important to start out with lots of stem plants and some floating plants....on your list you do have lots of stem plants but some can be tricky to get started especially if they had been started or grown at the nursery above the water or emersed


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Oldfishlady said:


> Are these the same species of plants you started with...if so, I would recommend getting different species of plants...sometimes, not all plants will do well in every setup-you have to experiment and try different plants until you find a species that likes your water, lights and soil.....
> 
> Overall the species you have listed are fine generally-you may have better luck with some hardier type species.....like-naja grass, water wisteria, hygrophilia siamensis, mexican oakleaf, ludwigia natans, rotala indica a floating plant like water lettuce or frogbit, duckweed
> 
> With the soil based tanks it is really important to start out with lots of stem plants and some floating plants....on your list you do have lots of stem plants but some can be tricky to get started especially if they had been started or grown at the nursery above the water or emersed


In my first setup I used Mexican Oak Leaf, Hornwort, Pennywort, and Creeping Jenny.
You're right though. I've amended the list and cut out the Pennywort.
The first time through the Mexican Oakleaf and Penny wort died first, then the Hornwort.

I'm replacing the Pennywort with Wisteria, and tyring my hand at the Hornwort again, hoping to have better success.

(Currently trying to find the other plants you listed, but having trouble. Still looking though.)

I'm also buying more frogbit, though I'd love to have some water lettuce.
I haven't seen any water lettuce for sale though, unfortunately.

So my list is:
*Creeping Jenny (12-16 stems)
Water Wisteria (12-16 stems)
Anacharis (12-16 stems)
Bacopa Australis (12-16 stems)
Hornwort (12-16 Stems)
**Red Cryptocoryne Wendtii (1 6" portion)
Green **Cryptocoryne Wendtii(1 6" portion)*
*Java Fern (2 prtions)
Frogbit (Generous Handfulls)

*
Does this sound like enough? Would Water Lettuce be better than Frogbit?


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

Looks good.....water lettuce and frogbit work the same way-I just like water lettuce better because it is bigger...lol....sometimes you can find most of the floating plants at places that sell goldfish/Koi and ponds/supplies

When you setup your tank-add 1.5in of soil and then half-1in dry sand on top of the soil-add water to cover being careful not to disturb the soil/sand-important not to mix the soil and sand

Fill the tank half way and then drain as much water as you can...do this a couple of times until the water is almost clean-don't worry about dechlorinator at this stage-you goal is to rinse the sand-this is the easiest way to do this and get good cover on the soil
Once the water is 90% clear
Add a couple of inches of dechlorinated water
Now plant add the hard scape like dirftwood, large rocks etc......
You will have some disruption in the soil-let this settle for 20 min or so
Fill with dechlorinated water as careful as you can so not to disrupt the soil/sand
If it is cloudy make water changes...sometimes you have to do a couple back to back and let it rest full of water for 20-30min
If done correctly the water should be 90-95% clear-if not make water changes until it is
You may have to use rocks and other items if you have any plants that won't stay planted
Once it is clear and any sand in the water column has settled-turn on the filter and watch and see if the filter kicks up any sand
I like to place my filter on the tank when I plant so I can place either hard scape or plants so that the filter overflow will not kick any sand up when it is turned on...also, if the intake is too low because of the substrate you can either cut if off or what I have done in one of my tanks-I used a flat rock and placed it under the intake so it doesn't suck the sand up into the filter

Your end result-the water should be fairly clear and totally clear within 24hour....this is important for the plants-you don't want a lot of sand or dirt on their leaves or in the water column hindering the light to them

I add all my livestock on the same day I set my NPT up and make 25-50% water only changes a couple of times a week until I see active growth in the plants and then I reduce the water changes weekly/as needed.....


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Thank you so much! This is a much clearer explanation!
I can't wait for everything to come in so I can get started!

Just found out that the 3/4 leafs of frogbit in my snail jar actually just put off 5 baby leaflets today while I was running errands! I might get some frogbit back soon!
And if it doesn't I always have that lovely e-bay seller as a fall back. His shipments come in so perfectly it's indescribable!


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

That is a really clear description of setup! =] Thanks so much! =] I'm ordering plants tomorrow night if possible! =] This is really gonna help me!


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Look at these snails!
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwsnails&1296003788

They would be great additional livestock in my tank.
I'll order 4 and keep some 1 gallon "snail jars" just for the excess from the babies. (I get a gallon jar once a week from neighbors that like pickles haha! very convenient!)
I can plant the gallon jars with whatever extra plants I have from my order.
It'll be great until I get some fish for the 2 five gallons, the ten gallon, and the three gallon, and once they're in I have a ton of snail homes! I could probably even ship them to my sister and whoever else wants them on here when spring comes around.


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

WOAH!!!!!!
I found out why I failed my first attempt.
I didn't mineralize my soil.
It went anerobic not long after the setup (considering MTS were DOA).
I've heard a good method for keeping the soil from going anerobic is to "prod it" or "poke it" to let oxygen in.
This is probably why the water started to slowly smell foul.
It won't happen again.


Also!
SNAIL ALERT
My ramshorn snails are happy and clean and munching away on algae wafers in their 1 gallon jar but:
A) I HAVE TONS OF BABIES.  I don't know how to make sure they survive a water change. Some of them aren't riding the bigger snails like the others are and I don't want them getting dumped out with the rest of the old water.
B) The ramshorns' shells aren't looking like they were when I got them. I can't tell if it's calcium build up or if the don't have enough and their shells are being corroded by the water. I'll be testing the water when I get home from work tonight to see which is more likely to be the answer. I hear people on plantedtank.net say that throwing a stick of chalk in is good for them because it dissolves so slowly and it helps their shells. is this true? I don't want the babies to have bad shells  they're just so tiny and fragile looking. This is so not good.


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## ChicagoPete (Dec 27, 2010)

What you can do when changing the snail water is, hold a net under the water as it's being poored and you'll ketch the ones that accidentley float out.


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

You can go anaerobic for varied reasons.....I don't mineralize my soils-but you can let it air for a day or so all spread out and/or put just the soil in the tank and cover with water for a week or so making daily water changes on it before you cap with sand or gravel and plant...I did this with one of my tank setup...kinda by accident and ended up with BGA that took a couple of months to get under control because of all the nutrients in the water column...what a mess...lol.....

You can go anaerobic with too large of an item sitting on top of the soil bed too, if I use really big rocks or big pieces of wood I will put them in first and then the soil and with some I will lay a half inch or so of soil then the large item and then finish the soil layer and sand...just depends on the setup I am doing in how I place things-usually you will smell rotten eggs and you know it has gone anaerobic....once the stem plants start to grow they will also pull oxygen down into the soil to prevent this when you don't have MTS's to do this for you...you usually don't have to poke the soil for long-just until you see active plant growth in the fast growing plants...this is why it is so important to have lots of fast growing stem plants when you first set a NPT up to prevent anaerobic or dead spot that can crash a small tank along with their filtering ability.....


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

So hopefully upgrading to a 5 gallon and poking will keep this from happening again. I will probably let the soil air out over night to make sure I have optimum chances.

I can't wait to get off work and test the water. I'll probably buy some chalk on the way home just incase. I really want these guys to be healthy and happy for their new homes.
Would you suggest the RCS, or will the Ramshorns and Trumpets be enough?
I'm not wanting to over stock on algae eaters if I can't keep them all housed properly. Now that I think about it I want to save all the 1 gallon jars for Quarantine tanks.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

LucyLoofa said:


> Look at these snails!
> http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwsnails&1296003788
> 
> They would be great additional livestock in my tank.
> ...


You have a ton of 1 gallons?!?
SSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! :I

(Lol jkjk) Good luck with your next setup! =]

As for your snails I found this on Applesnail.net (you'll wanna sign up for their forums if you get those applesnails)

"
Detoriation of shell and operculum


 shell detoriation: superficial wormholes; deep holes, loss of shell top
To have a good understanding about the causes of shell detoriation, one needs to know some basic shell anatomy [sread more about shell anatomy here]. The most important thing to remember is that the rigidity of the shell is provided by a strong, calcified inside, with a protective protein layer at the outside. It's the latter that prevents the chemical detoriation of the calcium at the inside. Once the protective outer layer is damaged, the calcium layer is exposed to the water. This shouldn't be a big problem, as long as the water is rich in calcium and is not acid, but once the pH of the water drops and the water becomes acid (pH below 7), the calciums starts to dissolve. As long as this process advances at a slow speed, the snails is often able to enforce the calcium layer, although only at the inside. The ouside of the shell is dead material, and cannot be repaired by the snail itself, so once damaged, it will stay that way. The oldest parts of the shell (the shell top) and those places that are often hot when a snail fall on the bottom are also the places that are most vulnerable as the protective outer layer is often damaged at those parts. Problems arise once the shell is detoriated that much that holes are formed, exposing the soft tissues below. In case of large holes, the snail can get problems with keeping the mantle cavity open, with lung collapse and other problems as result. Nevertheless, smaller holes an pose a problem as well, especially in a crowded tank, as other snails and fish won't hesitate to eat the exposed tissues. Luckely, snails do have some kind of repair system: they simply calcify the exposed tissues to protect them. 







Severely damaged shell (_Marisa cornuarietis_).







Slow progressed shell erosion. Not that the exposed tissues is already calcified.
_Pomacea diffusa_ 
So what to do once a snail has gaping holes and or a detoriated shell surface? 
First of all, check the water quality: is the pH at 7 or more? (keep it between 7-8). How about the water hardness? (keep the kH and GH high). 
A good way to regulate the water quality is to add a source of calcium in the form of crushed egg shells, specialized preparated, crushed sea-shells, marble or something similar. Once you are sure that the water is well enough to halt further detoriation, one has to decide if the shell should be repaired or not. If the snail is active, one can assume that the snail does not suffer from the damage. In such case a repair should be rather considerd a protective measurement to prevent other snails from attacking the exposed tissues. If however, there are no possible tissue eaters like fish and snails around, or if the holes are that small that the tissue stays out or reach, one can choose to leave the situation like it is. The snail will calcify the vulnerable tissues anyway as reaction to the exposition to water. 








An 2.5 years old _Pomacea diffusa_ with eroded shell.







Repaired shell: shell pieces glued over the holes (_Pomacea canaliculata_). If however, a large amount of shell is absent or if there is a real treat for the snail to become eaten alive, once can choose to repair the holes by glueing pieces of snail shell, eggs shells or even pieces of plastic over them. The best glue for this is medical superglue, although common household superglue will do as well, but is toxic until it's dried. In such case (household glue) one needs to make absolutely sure that the glue does not come in contact with the snail tissues. Pits and detoriated surfaces can be repaired by covering them with strong nail polish (make sure to use water resistant polish), epoxy resin or even better super glue. The latter dries quickly and even hardens more when in contact with water. More info about shell repair can be found on Pam's website. She has carried out several experiments with shell repair and has a good practical guide available.
 Operculum detoriation: holes, loss of operculum
While the shell mainly consist of calcium, the operculum is build out of proteins, although the species from the genus _Pila_ also have calcium deposits at the body side of the operculum. The operculum is much less vulnerable to detoriations, but if a snail is not well fed, it can occur, however, that the operculum is thin and even get's holes in it. In such case, there is not much that can be done besides taking good care of the snail. Also keep in mind that the operculum is not essential for an apple snail to survive in a common aquarium with no snail eating fish around. Beside the shape and the smoothness of the operculum, the attachement of the operculum to the back of the foot is a good indication of the well being (or not) of the snail. In normal situations the snail's tissues completely cover the inside/body side of the operculum. If the snail is not in optimal condition, this tissue is retracted and only the center of the opreculum is covered by snail tissue. In such cases one needs to check the water quality and make sure everything is allright. Old snails can show such tissue retraction as well, while it's not necessairly a real problem with them. After all, one can compare this with the retraction of gums/tissues around humans teeth if not taken weel care of.Occasionally, it does happen that the whole operculum is lost. This is not a life treatening for the snail itself, but it often indicates a real serious health problem in the snail, so be sure to check the water quality and be sure the snail isn't dead."


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

If your source water is hard to start...you may not need to add anything for the snails shell-your water may have enough of the needed minerals and adding anything could cause problems for the fish

What is your pH after 24h de-gas and KH/GH of the source water?

If you have soft water you can add crushed corral in a bag and hang in the filter or even cuttle bone used for birds a tiny piece is all that is needed and only if you have soft water..


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

Uhoh.  It's slow erosion. I know I have hard water here! I get calcium buildup like noone's business in every sink, tub, and toilet! I clean rigorously once a week to keep it at bay. (sometimes more! Like over break when it got really bad!)
At least I'm catching it early.  I have noticed the full grown snails clinging to one another. Perhaps they're trying to get tissues from the small holes. I'll add some chalk asap after I test the water and see if it improves things until I can get crushed coral.


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah I know! That water is liquid rock! D: I have no idea why their shells are eroding. Good luck with them! =]


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## Oldfishlady (Mar 1, 2010)

If you already have hard water I would not add anything to your water for the snail...the minerals already in your water should be enough....


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## wallywestisthebest333 (Nov 30, 2009)

This might be hi-jacking but seeing as I'll have a lot of plants and will probably give half of them to my sister I thought I'd post about it here as opposed to starting a new thread about it. 

I JUST BOUGHT MY PLANTS!!!!!!!!!!!  I got them from probably the best place online (cheaper than plantedaquariumscentral actually! ) www.sweetaquatics.com ! =] I've had pretty decent communication with them (usually takes them a day to two days to respond to e-mails) and their prices are unbeatable. everything I'm about to post cost me altogether only $21.55! 

1 x Lloydiella, Golden (Lysimachia Nummularia var. Aurea) = $1.35
1 x Java Fern (Microsorium Pteropus) = $2.50
5 x Sagittaria Subulata (Dwarf) = $3.00
1 x Ludwigia Natans (Ludwigia Repens) = $1.35
1 x Micromeria brownei (Creeping Charlie) = $1.50
1 x Bacopa Monnieri = $1.35
2 x Cryptocoryne Wendtii Green = $2.40
2 x Cryptocoryne Wendtii Red = $2.40
1 x Echinodorus Ozelot SM = $1.95
1 x Water Wisteria (Hygrophila Difformis) = $1.50
1 x Ceratopteris Thalictroides ( Water Sprite ) = $2.25

AWESOME RIGHT?  Each stem plant is 6-8 stems per order and they're about 8 1/2 to 12 inches tall! <3
I'm really excited about it! =]

Tell me what you guys think! =] I should have my plants by Saturday or Wednesday probably! =]

Oh! And the shipping was only $7.70! =]

I know I splurged but I have a bunch of money just siting in my paypal and it's burning a hole in my virtual pocket! D:

This is spam but:
On a side note I think my environmental group may be mad at me. :[ They walked right past me, looked straight at me, and then ignored me when I said hi..... I don't know if I wanna go in now... :'[


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## LucyLoofa (May 30, 2010)

*Update. Plants are here.*

Sorry. I had lost this thread and just now thought to look under my "Statistics" to find it. :doh!: DERP
Anyways, I've ordered butt loads of plants, but they all got shipped in simultaneously on Friday in the afternoon. I have classes on Friday and the campus post office closes at 5:00.
Unfortunately what I didn't know is that they're also closed on the weekends. :-(
Any idea if my plants will be okay?

P.S. Re tested my degased water from tap and with conditioner and both were too soft.
Been supplementing for the snails and they're doing better. I got a bunch of free pond snails, ramshorns, and mts from petsmart and the mts are multiplying!
A really really huge ramshorn died the other day though. I kind of expected him to because he was the only snail in the bunch that had a brown tissue color and not a healthy looking pink. Plus he'd been alive the longest and had been eating the baby snails back when the water wasn't hard enough. :shake: I kind of wanted him gone anyways.
Frogbit is thriving and I've got my 3 gallon resealed (I cracked it while I was cleaning it. I dropped it) and ready to reseal my 10 gallon.
Depending on how many plants I've got in this shipment and if they're doing well I'll either start the walstad in the 5 gallon or the 10 gallon.

Hey Wally, not to be rude, promise! Could you start your own thread with updates on your plants etc? It's really clogging this one up.
I'll be sure to read yours too and give any advice I can! (which won't be much lol! but i'll try)


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